1963-07-31

THE ROYAL ASSENT

Mr. Speaker:: I have the honour to inform the house that I have received the following communication:
Ottawa, July 31, 1963
Sir:
I have the honour to inform you that the Honourable Wilfred Judson, judge of the Supreme Court of Canada, acting as Deputy to His Excellency the Governor General, will proceed to the Senate chamber today, the 31st July, at 5.45 p.m., for the purpose of giving royal assent to certain bills.
I have the honour to be. sir,
Your obedient servant,
A. G. Cherrier
Assistant Secretary to the Governor General.



ANNOUNCEMENT OF PAY INCREASES FOR CERTAIN STAFF MEMBERS

Mr. Speaker:: Yesterday an inquiry was directed to the Minister of Finance concerning pay increases for certain employees of the House of Commons who are ordinarily referred to as group D employees. May I be permitted to inform the house that the commissioners of internal economy have approved pay increases for these employees in line with the increases authorized for group D employees of the public service.
For the information of hon. members perhaps I might, by leave, table lists in English and in French covering the salary revisions. [Later:]
On the orders of the day:


Mr. Stanley Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):: May I ask the Minister of Finance whether he can tell the house the effective date of the increases in pay for House of Commons employees, to which Mr. Speaker made reference?


Hon. Walter L. Gordon (Minister of Finance):: October 1, 1962.



BANKING AND COMMERCE

[Stage Direction]
Sixth report of standing committee on banking and commerce-Mr. Asselin (Notre Dame de Grace).


[Stage Direction]
Hon. Lionel Chevrier (Minister of Justice! moved the first reading of Bill No. S-2 (from the Senate), to amend the Bankruptcy Act.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time, QUESTIONS
Mr. Pickersgill:: Mr. Speaker, the following: questions are being answered today: 631, 795, 827, 832, 884, 891, 915, 928, 942, 943, 954, 959,. 963, 969, 972, 987, 991, 994, 995, 996, 997, 1,034,	1,045,	1,050,	1,052,	1,053,	1,061,	1,069,1,072,	1,076,	1,077,	1,091,	1,092,	1,093,	1,106,.1,112,	1,113,	1,114,	1,117,	1,125,	1,127,	1,128,1,132,	1,137. If question No. 454 could be	made
an order for return the return would be tabled immediately. I would also ask that question 1,111 be made an order for return. If Your Honour would be good enough to call starred questions Nos. 1,080, 1,124 and 1,138, I would ask that the remaining questions stand.


Mr. Diefenbaker:: Mr. Speaker, if I may speak to this matter, there are quite a number of questions the answers to which are falling far behind. I can understand that some of these questions are difficult to answer, but it would be most helpful if it could be done even though the number may be great. Question No. 832 standing in the name of the hon. member for Oxford reads as follows:
How many letters or telegrams have been received by the Prime Minister in criticism of the imposition of the 11 per cent sales tax on (a) building materials (b) production machinery?
Question No. 833 requests similar information of the Minister of Finance. That is information that should be readily available, however numerous these letters and telegrams might be. Then there is question No. 477,. which has been on the order paper since June 13. This is one about which there should be no difficulty in answering because it relates to the number of the present ministers of the crown who were employees of the federal public service.
Furthermore, I feel it would be most helpful if most of the remainder of these questions could be cleaned up now. I know what difficulties the printing bureau have and when, day after day, 50 or 100 questions are simply put over until another day, this imposes an extra burden upon the printing service.

Questions


John Whitney Pickersgill: I do not think I can allow the right hon. gentleman's observations to pass without a comment. In so far as the first two questions to which he referred are concerned, I suppose it is a matter of the utmost public interest that the number of telegrams received should be communicated to the house. I will ask the Prime Minister and the Minister of Finance if they could not have them counted.
As for the record generally, I suggest that the number of questions that have been answered, in relation to the total volume of written questions in this session, will compare favourably with any other session in the last quarter of a century.
(Translation):


Mr. Gilles Gregoire (Lapointe):: Mr. Speaker, I support the observations just made by the right hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Diefenbaker), more particularly concerning other questions which have been on the order paper since June 13 last and to which it would be relatively easy to give an answer.
I wonder whether the Secretary of State (Mr. Pickersgill) could explain why the replies to those questions are delayed when some of them involve information quite easy to obtain. For instance, I notice that


and there are several in the same class-deals with the number of deputy ministers in the Post Office Department. Well, I am convinced that there are not so many. I think the Secretary of State would prove his good faith by answering questions to which answers can be easily provided.: I think that those questions have been on the order paper long enough and that the members who asked them are entitled to answers. I therefore would ask the Secretary of State to explain why the government delays the answers.
(Text):


John Whitney Pickersgill: I explained to the hon. gentleman before, and I should like to explain to him again, that the government has been giving very careful consideration to the most satisfactory means of providing the information that I think is honestly and rightly desired. However, the actual form of the questions makes the compilation of the information somewhat difficult, and I had planned, even before the hon. gentleman raised his point, to ask the hon. gentleman if I could have a little time to discuss these questions with him and perhaps with one or two of his colleagues this afternoon. I should like very

much, and I know the government would like very much, to give satisfactory answers to these questions before we adjourn. If I could see the hon. gentleman I would be only too happy to discuss the problem with him.


Gilles Grégoire: We will accept that, and even if we do not have answers to all these questions we will be satisfied.


Mr. Valade:: I should like to say a word on that point. My question No. 477 is quite different from the one that was contemplated by the Secretary of State. I am sure he knows his colleagues and, since my question has been standing for a month and a half, I think I should get an answer from him. I would be surprised if the hon. gentleman does not know his own colleagues.


John Whitney Pickersgill: As a matter of fact, if the hon. gentleman would get the Parliamentary Guide and spend half an hour studying it, he could probably find the answers himself.


Mr. Speaker:: Does the house give consent to questions 454 and 1,111 being made orders for returns?
Snmo Vinn. Momherc? Affrppr!

On the orders of the day:


Mr. G. H. Aiken (Parry Sound-Muskoka):: I wish to direct a question to the Secretary of State. While the Secretary of State is working in an effort to clear up answers to written questions would he also hasten the provision of returns to orders for the production of papers, so that as many as possible might be made before we adjourn?


John Whitney Pickersgill: They are being hastened, and I think the proportion of returns will be found to be as high as it has ever been.


John George Diefenbaker: The question I wanted to ask was this. Following the course the hon. gentleman always adopted when he was on this side of the house, I wish to ask him if he will table tomorrow a list of the orders for returns which have been asked for and have not been made, and indicating when these returns may be brought down.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I would be able to give the same kind of return that was given by the right hon. gentleman's colleague when it was asked for by me, and I will give it tomorrow. However, I shall not attempt to prophesy when the returns will be made.


John George Diefenbaker: It will be full and comprehensive.


John Whitney Pickersgill: It will be complete.

(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)



SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO POSTMASTER GENERAL

Mr. Fisher: 1.	Has the Postmaster General taken an executive assistant or a special assistant on staff and, if so, what is this person's name, age, place of birth, institutions of education and educational qualifications, governmental or business experience (position held, length of experience, name of firm) and initial and present salary with the government?
2.	What length of time has this assistant undertaken to serve the Postmaster General and/or what engagement in length of time was given to the assistant by the minister?
3.	In brief, what particular qualities of this assistant led the Postmaster General to engage him?


Mr. Denis:: 1. Yes-executive assistant.
Gaston Clermont, 49, born at L'Abord-a-Ploufle, P.Q., now Chomedey. He attended elementary school at L'Abord-a-Plouffe and high school at the Academie Dujarie, Cartier-ville, Montreal. His post high school training was in finance and commerce.
Business experience-ten years with the Provincial Bank of Canada; five years with the Singer Manufacturing Company, Thurso, P.Q., in the personnel and accounting departments; fifteen years with the Thurso Lumber and Planing Mills as manager and subsequently secretary treasurer.
Elected to the House of Commons as member for the constituency of Labelle at the by-election, October 31, 1960, and re-elected at the general election, June 18, 1962.
Initial salary-$9,000.
Present salary-$9,000.
2.	Full time and at the pleasure of the Postmaster General.
3.	Full confidence in this person in every regard.



WORKING CONDITIONS ON D.E.W. LINE

Mr. Orlikow: 1.	Has the Federal Electric Corporation recently presented to employees working on the D.E.W. line a contract which includes a pay cut and an increase in the hours worked per week, plus a one seventh increase in work load due to a one seventh cut in technician training?
2.	Are American technicians on the D.E.W. line paid a higher weekly rate than Canadian technicians doing exactly the same job, and, if so, what is the difference in the rate?
3.	Are workers given a 24 hour period between shifts in lieu of a full day off per week?
4.	Have any workers been dismissed because they refused to accept the new contract and, if so (a) were they shipped out by D.O.T. planes (b) how much notice was given to such workers?
5.	Under the contract offered to the workers, must they work 12 hours a day, seven days a week, for an indefinite period of time at no extra pay: and have any workers who protested these terms been dismissed?
6.	Has the Department of Labour approved the new rates of pay and, if so, when did they give such approval?
Questions
7.	Is there an agreement between the Federal Electric Corporation and the Canadian government that 80 per cent of the personnel on the D.E.W. line should be Canadian and, if so, has this agreement been lived up to?
8.	On April 1, May 1, and June 1 of this year, what percentage of the workers were Canadian?
9.	At the present time, is the Federal Electric Corporation bringing personnel from Great Britain and Ireland to work on the D.E.W. line and, if so, are the rates of pay to them lower than those presently being paid?
Answer: 1. Federal Electric Corporation served notices of termination, effective June 30, 1963, of all individual contracts for services held with employees on the D.E.W. line and offered new contracts of employment at downgraded rates of pay, with no change in the hours of work. No information is available concerning work load.
2.	Certain United States employees such as crypto radicians are paid higher rates than Canadian radicians. Security arrangements require the use of U.S. citizens on cryptograph instruments. No information is available as to the difference in rate of pay at the present time.
3.	No information available.
4.	No information available as to dismissals. Workers are transported by contract planes, not D.O.T. planes.
5.	Contract offer was rescinded by Federal Electric.
6.	Yes, the presently existing rates were approved on June 24, 1963.
7.	The exchange of notes between Canada and the U.S. requires that preference be given to qualified Canadian labour, and that the entry of United States personnel shall be in accordance with Canadian customs and immigration procedures.
8.	Ninety seven per cent of total employees on the Canadian sector of the D.E.W. line were Canadian citizens as at April 20, 1963. No such information available with respect to the dates of April 1, May 1 and June 1.
9.	Federal Electric Corporation has denied that it is bringing personnel from Great Britain and Ireland to work on the Canadian sector of the D.E.W. line.



C.N.R. RENTAL OF ROLLING STOCK

Mr. MacEwan: 1.	How many units of railway rolling stock, including gondolas, hoppers, box cars, and so forth, are being operated by the Canadian National Railway in Canada on a rental basis from United States companies?
2.	What is the breakdown in numbers of the various types of unit?
3.	How many units are being used in the Atlantic provinces?
4.	What is the breakdown in numbers of the various types of unit?

Questions
5.	What types of materials or products are being transported by the units in the Atlantic provinces?


Mr. Mcllrailh:: The management of Canadian National Railways advise as follows:
1 and 2. Canadian National has under lease certain units of equipment primarily for test purposes such as newly designed mechanical refrigerators, hydro frame cushion box cars and tri-levels.
3 and 4. These cars are not specifically assigned to the Atlantic region but in the normal course of carriage of traffic they could be used in that area.
5. Automobiles and products requiring refrigeration in transit.



PROTESTS AGAINST SALES TAX ON BUILDING MATERIALS

Mr. Nesbill: How many letters or telegrams have been received by the Prime Minister in criticism of the imposition of the 11 per cent sales tax on (a) building materials (b) production machinery?
Answer: (a) 603; (b) 60; 108 communications were also received mentioning both building materials and production machinery.



AMALGAMATION OF ARMED FORCES UNITS

Mr. Douglas: 1.	What corps or units of one of the armed services have been unified or amalgamated with corps or units of other of the armed services since January 1, 1946?
2.	Have either or both the medical corps and the chaplain corps of the three services been unified or amalgamated and, if so, (a) when (b) what was the establishment by ranks before and after amalgamation (c) what was the cost of providing (i) medical services (ii) chaplaincy services, in the last full fiscal year before unification, and in the first full fiscal year after unification?
Answer: 1 and 2. The medical branches of the armed forces were unified as the Canadian forces medical service in January 1959, and the chaplain services were integrated at headquarters in September 1958 and at command level in December 1959. Establishment by ranks before and after amalgamation is as follows:
Ranks (Equivalent)	Medical Establishments Prior To Unification 15 Jan 59	Canadian h'orces Medical Service EstablishmentNavy	Army	Air	Special List	Total	1959-60Major General	i	i	1Brigadier	.. i	i	i	-	3	3Colonel	.. 3	8	5	3	19	19Lt Colonel	.. 9	34	26	1	70	68Major	.. 40	98	71	-	209	210Captain	.. 72	180	149	-	401	399Lieutenant	.. 83	228	236	-	547	546W01	.. 10	17	4	-	31	30W02	,. 20	40	11	-	71	70S/Sgt	. 65	63	34	-	162	162Sgt	,. 84	245	131	-	460	452Cpl	. 66	498	229	-	793	787Pte	.. 132	681	375	-	1,188	1,179Total	.. 585	2,093	1,272	5	3,955	3,926
government's contribution to the pension fund in 1957-58 was $1,999,805 and in 1959-60 $1,967,997. The cost of providing medical services including pay and allowances, travelling and removal expenses, medical expenses, civilian consultants, medical supplies, operation and maintenance costs can only be provided on an estimated basis as it is difficult to break down the actual cost data of personnel salaries for other than medical personnel, building maintenance, and other operation and maintenance costs, which can be related to the provision of medical services.

	Chaplains	
Before	Rank	After198	Class 2	20145	Class 3	4424	Class 4	206	Class 5	60	Class 6	2273	273The cost	of providing chaplaincy	servicesincluding pay and allowances, travelling and	removal expenses, medical expenses	and the
However, it has been estimated that in 195758, these were $35,233,200 and in 1959-60 $34,973,900.



MINISTERS OF AGRICULTURE SINCE CONFEDERATION

Mr. Gauthier: 1.	How many Anglo-Canadian ministers of agriculture were there since confederation?
2.	How many French-Canadian ministers of agriculture were there since confederation?


Mr. Hays:: The following have held the portfolio of minister of agriculture since confederation:
Name
Chapais, Hon. J. C. Dunkin, Hon. C. Pope, Hon. J. H. Letellier de St. Just, Hon. L.
Pelletier, Hon. Sir
Constituency represented Champlain (Quebec) Brome (Quebec) Compton (Quebec)
(Senator),
C. A. P.	Kamouraska (Quebec)
Carling, Hon. Sir J. London (Ontario) Angers, Hon. Sir A. R. La Valliere (Quebec) Montague, Hon. W. H. Haldimand (Ontario)
Fisher, Hon. S. A. Burrell, Hon. M.
Crerar, Hon. T. A. Tolmie, Hon. S. F.
Motherwell, Hon. W. R.
Weir, Hon. R.
Gardiner, Rt. Hon. J. G.
Harkness, Hon. D. Hamilton, Hon. A. Hays, Hon. H. W.
Brome (Quebec) Yale-Cariboo (British Columbia) Marquette (Manitoba) Victoria City
(British Columbia) Melville
(Saskatchewan)
Melfort
(Saskatchewan)
Melville
(Saskatchewan)
. Calgary North (Alberta) Qu'Appelle
(Saskatchewan) Calgary South (Alberta).



RENTAL OF LAND, FORT ST. JOHN INDIAN AGENCY

Mr. Howard: 1.	Since January 1, 1962, has any land on or near Indian reserve No. 204 which is at or near a place called Moic Flats in the Fort St. John Indian agency, been rented and, if so, to whom, at what rent, and for what period of time?
2.	Was this rental discussed with the Indians involved and, if so, by whom, when, what decision was made by the Indians, and when was it made?
3.	Was any public advertising engaged in regarding the proposed rental and, if so, what was the nature and text of the advertising, the names and addresses of the publications or other media which carried it, and the dates on which such an advertisement appeared?
4.	Were any answers received as a result of the said advertising and, if so, what are the names and addresses of each person who so answered, the date of each answer, and the details of each reply?
Questions
5.	Were any queries or proposals to rent received, other than those mentioned in part 4 hereof, in any way regarding the proposed rental and, if so, what are the names and addresses of the persons who so queried or proposed, the date of each answer, and the details of each such query or proposal.


Mr. Munro:: 1. Yes. The whole of Beaton river Indian reserve No. 204 was rented to Joseph Hetman, P.O. Box 17, North Pine, B.C., for grazing purposes for a term of 5 years from April 1, 1962, at an annual rental of $95.
2.	The renting of the land was approved by the council of the Beaver band of Indians by resolution dated February 16, 1962, and the lease to Mr. Hetman was approved by council resolution dated August 27, 1962.
3.	Yes. The following invitation to tender was distributed to post offices in the area: "NOTICE TO THE PUBLIC
Tenders will be received by the undersigned at his office, federal building, Fort St. John, until 12 o'clock noon on February 28th, 1962, for the lease for grazing purposes of Beaton river Indian reserve No. 204, situated in township 115, range 18 west of the 6th meridian, and containing 883 acres.
The lease will be for a period of five years, renewable at the option of the Indian owners for further periods.
The lessee will undertake to fence with suitable material the perimeter of the said reserve.
The tenderer will state the price in one lump sum for the annual rent he offers to pay for this reserve, the said rent to be payable in advance each year.
E. J. Galibois,
Superintendent,
Fort St. John Indian Agency" 6th February 1962
4.	Yes. Joseph Hetman, P.O. Box 17, North Pine, B.C., by letter dated February 6, 1962, offering an annual rental of $95.
5.	There is no record of any queries or proposals received other than that mentioned in part 4 above.



DISCUSSIONS RESPECTING PENSION SCHEMES

Mr. Korchinski: 1.	Have any discussions been held with the provinces in connection with the proposed contributory pension plan?
2.	Have any discussions been held with companies or firms that already have pension schemes?
3.	Have any discussions been held with any insurance companies in connection with the proposed contributory pension schemes?


Miss LaMarsh:: 1. The nature and scope of the Canada pension plan were made known to the House of Commons during the discussion of the resolution on July 18, and

Questions
this information formed the basis of discussions with the provinces at the federal-provincial conference on July 26 and 27.
2.	No detailed discussions have been held, but study has been given to the effect and the relationship of the Canada pension plan to different types of private pension plans. This relates not only to private pension schemes in general but to pension schemes operated by crown corporations in particular.
3.	Yes, representatives of life insurance companies have discussed their views with the government.



FOREIGN UNIVERSITY STUDENTS

Mr. Brewin: 1.	How many foreign students admitted to Canadian universities as non-immigrants have applied for admission to Canada?
2.	How many have been granted admission to Canada, and what is the national origin of those who have been granted admission?
3.	What is the national origin of the students who have applied and have been refused permanent admission to Canada?


John Carr Munro: 1, 2 and 3.
As the statistics maintained by the immigration branch do not distinguish between
in Tt*U ^ 1- - 

 - - t- - - - -* - - - 

. A - -J 1 - - -1 - -1 f ..-uvMMWiuu >'11V nun. UCCii giUIltCU lOUUCU 1111"
migrant status and other persons who have been admitted to Canada as immigrants, it is not possible to answer the question.



FERRY &quot;BLUENOSE&quot;


Mr. Fisher: 1.	What is the schedule of the C.N. ferry Bluenose into Bar Harbor?
2.	Does the ferry fuel and take on other supplies at Bar Harbor and, if so, what advantages has Bar Harbor over Yarmouth for this servicing?
3.	Has the C.N. received representations on this matter of supplying the Bluenose at Bar Harbor and, if so, from whom, and when?


George James McIlraith: The management of Canadian National Railways advise as follows:
1.	Summer, daily (June 15-September 16, 1963, inclusive).
Leave Bar Harbor 8 a.m. eastern time, arrive Yarmouth 3 p.m. Atlantic time.
Leave Yarmouth 4.30 p.m. Atlantic time, arrive Bar Harbor 9.30 p.m. eastern time.
Winter, tri-weekly (September 17, 1963 to mid June, 1964) Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday.
Leave Bar Harbor 8 a.m. eastern time, arrive Yarmouth 3.30 p.m. Atlantic time, Monday, Wednesday, Friday.
Leave Yarmouth 9 a.m. Atlantic time, arrive Bar Harbor 2.30 p.m. eastern time.
(Times shown are local, daylight or standard, whichever is in effect).
To permit ticketing, customs and immigration inspection, acceptance of passengers and
[Miss LaMarsh.l
automobiles, time of embarkation begins 2 hours before sailing time. Advance reservations are necessary.
2.	All supplies are taken at Yarmouth with the exception of fuel and lubricating oil.
3.	No.



CAMP IPPERWASH, ONT.

Mr. McCutcheon: 1.	What are the current plans of the government for utilization of facilities at Camp Ipperwash, Ontario?
2.	If it is to be reactivated, to what degree in relationship to its former status?
Answer: 1. Current plans for Camp Ipperwash are based on a continuing use of its facilities by the Canadian army (regular), Canadian army (militia) and the Royal Canadian Army cadets. The facilities are also used, from time to time, by elements of the Royal Canadian Air Force, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Ontario provincial rifle association and the Ontario provincial police.
2.	The future use of Camp Ipperwash is under study.



C.N.R. TRACK MAINTENANCE, MARITIME AREA

Mr. Muir (Cape Breton: North and Victoria):
1.	Does the management of the Canadian National Railways propose to inaugurate a new system of track maintenance in the maritime area on August 1, 1963?
2.	What will be the reduction in the track maintenance employee force in the whole area?
3.	What will be the reduction in the track maintenance employee force for (a) Hopewell subdivision and (b) Sydney subdivision?
4.	What provisions are being made for continued employment of the maintenance men who will be displaced?
5.	As a result of the proposed changes, will it be necessary for personnel affected to change their place of residence?


George James McIlraith: The management of Canadian National Railways advise as follows:
1.	No.
2.	to 5. Not applicable.



COMPETITION 63-PTAH-58, TRANSPORT DEPARTMENT

Mr. Fisher: 1.	How many applications were received by the civil service commission and/or the Department of Transport for competition No. 63-PTAH-58 for the position of principal clerk (secretary to assistant deputy minister, air)?
2.	When did it become necessary for the incumbent of this position to possess the ability to speak, read and write both English and French fluently to fulfil the required duties?
3.	Why was a decision made to make this position bilingual, and who made this decision?
4.	Is this so-called bilingual requirement to take dictation in French necessary for official or semiofficial correspondence, or both, and if so, what

percentage of time is required for taking dictation in French of official or semi-official correspondence, and its translation?
5.	Is this so-called bilingual requirement to take dictation in French necessary for personal correspondence and, if so, what percentage of time is required for taking dictation in French of personal correspondence and its translation?
6.	What percentage of time, if any, will the incumbent spend in (a) speaking French (b) reading French (c) writing French in this position, and with whom will French be spoken?
7.	Do the duties of the position of clerk IV in the office of the assistant deputy minister, air, presently include taking dictation from this official and, if so, is it the intention that the position now be down-graded to a clerk II, or a clerk III, to compensate for the reduction of duties?
8.	Which is considered to be the more important in this position (a) knowledge of work, efficiency, initiative and experience or (b) knowledge of French, and will this factor in itself be the overriding one in the filling of this position?
9.	Are the services of the French section of the translation bureau no longer satisfactory for the translation of (a) official or semi-official correspondence or (b) personal correspondence, and if so, will there lie a corresponding reduction in the staff of the French translation services of the translation bureau?


George James McIlraith: Parts 1 to 9: The qualifications for this position, for which nine applications were received, have been established on a bilingual basis because of the general desirability in a large administrative department such as transport for bilingual clerical staff to assist senior administrative officers in view of extensive contacts with persons using both languages. The requirement is related to official needs and does not involve any downgrading of other positions or major changes in regard to use of the services of the translation bureau.
The qualifications for the position were approved by the civil service commission in accordance with its statutory requirements.



TRIP TO HONG KONG BY FORMER AGRICULTURE MINISTER

Mr. Knowles: 1.	Did the then minister of agriculture make a trip to Hong Kong in April or May, 1961, and, if so, what was the purpose of the trip?
2.	On what date did the then minister leave Canada for Hong Kong, and on what date did he return?
3.	Was the then minister accompanied by any member of his staff?
4.	Whas this trip made at public expense and, if so, *what was the total cost thereof (a) for the then minister and (bj for any member of his staff?


Harry William Hays: 1. Yes. The purpose of the trip was stated by the then prime minister, in answer to a question in the house and as recorded on page 4017 of Hansard of April 26, 1961, to be "to secure sales for Canadian grain."
2. The available departmental records do not show the dates of the then minister's departure and return. As shown in reply to 3
Questions
below his special assistant left Canada on April 26, 1961, and returned on May 1, 1961. The then prime minister, in his statement to the house on April 26, 1961, stated that "The Minister of Agriculture is now en route to Hong Kong."
3.	The then minister was accompanied by his special assistant, whose expense account showed that he left Canada on April 26, 1961, and returned on May 1, 1961.
4.	Yes; (a) for the then minister the cost of the air transportation was $1,731.51. Details of other expenses are not available; (b) for the special assistant, $1,731.51 for air transportation and $220.37 for other expenses.



DISABILITY OR DEATH FROM RADIOACTIVE EXPOSURE

Mr. Peters: 1.	How many known accidents in Canada have resulted in disability or death as a result of exposure to radioactive materials?
2.	How many of these accidents occurred in federal departments of the government?
3.	Of those cases coming under (a) federal jurisdiction and (b) provincial jurisdiction, how many have been reported to the Department of National Health and Welfare by the various compensation boards throughout Canada?


Julia Verlyn (Judy) LaMarsh: 1, 2 and 3. From the records of federal departments and agencies (Department of National Health and Welfare, Department of National Defence, atomic energy control board, Atomic Energy of Canada Limited and national research council), no known accidents in Canada have resulted in death or in disability as a result of exposure to radioactive material. Disability is interpreted as physical disability requiring any loss of employment time.



C.N.R. AUTOMOBILE HANDLING FACILITIES, SYDNEY, N.S.

[Stage Direction]
Question No. 98 7-Mr. Muir (Cape Breton
North and Victoria):
Has consideration been given by the Canadian National Railways for the setting up of a compound in the Sydney-North Sydney area for the handling of automobiles arriving on railway "trilevel" equipment for Cape Breton and Newfoundland and, if so, what decision has been reached in the matter?
George James McIlraith: The management of Canadian National Railways advise as follows:
The matter of setting up such a compound is under consideration.



CIVILIAN TRAVEL ALLOWANCES, R.C.A.F.

Mr. MacLean (Queens): 1.	Does the Department of National Defence grant an allowance to civilian employees for their travel cost to and from their place of employment?
2.	If so, has such an allowance been recently discontinued to some, or all, of the civilian employees at R.C.A.F. station, Summerside, and how many employees are affected?

Questions
3.	Has there been any change in policy with regard to these allowances since May 1, 1963?
Answer: 1. Yes, at certain locations a commuting allowance is paid.
2.	Yes, 225.
3.	Yes, such allowances have been discontinued at establishments located less than 5 miles from the nearest community.



LIMITATION OF HIRING OF DEPARTMENTAL EMPLOYEES

[Stage Direction]
*
Mr. Priiiie: Is the government's staff control policy concerning the hiring of additional employees by [DOT]departments imposed in 1962, still in effect and, if so, how long will this staff control policy remain in effect?
Answer: A minor change was made in the rules last March enabling the departments to recruit one employee for each five new vacancies in lieu of the former one employee for each ten new vacancies, until 85 per cent of the establishment is filled. Special relief has been and will be granted from time to time in areas where this is required in the interests of efficiency. Apart from this the present restrictions on recruiting will be re-xained throughout the remainder of tne current fiscal year, after which time the policy will be further reviewed.



SALES TAX ON BUILDING MATERIALS


Mr. Priitie: How many employees, in addition to those now in the department, will be required by the Department of National Revenue to issue new sales tax licences to manufacturers whose products are now subject to the 4 per cent tax on building materials and production machinery, and to supervise collections from these manufacturers?


Mr. Garland:: The requirements for additional personnel will continue to be assessed in the light of the increased work load. The department has about 155 vacancies in its present establishment. These will be used to	
	Amounts
Location	expended
St. Michel de Bellechasse	
Lots 49 and 50	$11,643.28
Part of lot 181	7,605.66
Lots 220 and 221	6,696.15
Lots 113 to 134, 203 and 208	11,384.18
Lots 33 to 43	10,971.70
Part of lot 181	5,058.63
St. Vallier	
Lots 41 to 49	16,049.40
Lots 49 to 53	5,100.00
Lots 118, 122, 125, 92 and 93	8,547.00
Lot 148	7,496.50
	
strengthen the excise tax staff to the extent of the need and the availability of qualified candidates.



EMPLOYMENT OF GORDON HEAD, WESTMINSTER HOSPITAL, LONDON

Mr. Nesbitt: 1.	Does Mr. Gordon Head, presently employed on the staff of Westminster hospital in London, demonstrate certain laboratory techniques to student technicians and interns in Westminster hospital?
2.	Has Mr. Head assisted in the development of any product which is being recommended for use by a chemical company in Canada, and the United States?
3.	Was Mr. Gordon Head reclassified from hospital laboratory helper grade 2 to assistant technician 2 and, if so (a) when did this reclassification take place and (b) did he receive an increase in pay?
Answer: 1. Yes.
2.	Mr. Head has recently informed departmental officials that, some years ago, he made a suggestion to a representative of a chemical firm with respect to techniques to be used in the application of one of its products.
3.	Mr. Gordon Head was reclassified from a hospital laboratory helper 2 to assistant technician 2.
/ ~ \ T~* 1   1 At 4-Z ,  A 1-  1    -AJC A2 
\ c*) x icciaooiiicu nun tuun. juiauu cucuuvc
June 1, 1962.
(b)	Reclassification did not bring about an increase in pay as the salary ranges for the two classifications are the same. (Translation):



ST. LAWRENCE RIVER    RETAINING WALLS BETWEEN LEVIS AND RIVIERE DU LOUP

Mr. Berger: 1.	How many sustaining walls were built on the south shore of the St. Lawrence river between Levis and Riviere du Loup from 1957 to 1963?
2.	At what locations were such walls erected?
3.	What were the amounts paid in each individual case?
4.	To whom were the contracts awarded?


Mr. Badanai:: 1. Fifteen sustaining walls were built.
2, 3 and 4. See following table.
Contracts
awarded
(state agent)
(state agent)
Arthur Simoneau (Charny)
Noel Grenier (St. Raphael) Arthur Simoneau (Charny)
Noel Grenier (St. Raphael)
(state agent)
Lionel Gaumont (St. Vallier)
J. R. Denoncourt (Nicolet) Gaumont & Freres (St. Vallier)

Questions
Berthier
Lots 195 and 197, and part
of lot 198	13,012.00
Lots 194 and 190	10,523.75
Lots 179, 182 and 183 Part of lot 198 and part of	7,517.50
lot 190	6,096.50
L'lslet	
Lot 228	4,692.35
PERMIT FOR TELEVISION CABLE,	CHIBOUGAMAU.



QUE. OPERATE A TELEVISION CABLE

Mr. Laprise: Is Gagnon Television Limited, St. Felicien, Quebec licensed by the Department of Transport to operate a television cable to Chibougamau and Chapais and, if so, when was such licence granted, and for how long is it valid?


George James McIlraith: Yes, (a) commercial receiving station licences, Chibougamau-June 6, 1960, Chapais-April 13, 1962, (b) licences issued annually ending March 31.
(Text):



FATAL ACCIDENT, BORDEN-CAPE TORMENTINE FERRY

Mr. MacLean (Queens): 1.	Has an investigation been held into the recent accident on the Borden-Cape Tormentine ferry service which resulted in the death by drowning of a three and one half year old child?
2.	Is consideration being given to safety measures which would lessen the likelihood of the recurrence of such an incident?


George James McIlraith: The management of Canadian National Railways advise as follows:
1.	Yes, a preliminary investigation was held immediately following the accident, and complete investigation is now under way.
2.	All aspects of the matter are being carefully examined.



EXTERNAL AID TO INDIA AND PAKISTAN

Mr. Malheson: 1.	What has the federal government done each year and at what cost, commencing with the year 1958, to provide external aid to (a) India and (b) Pakistan?
2.	What plans has the federal government now under consideration for external aid to each of these countries, and at what cost and for what projected period?
3.	What requests for external aid have been received from these countries, commencing with the year 1958, which the government has been unable to meet in whole or in part?


Mr.   Marlin@Essex East: 1. During the period 1958 until the end of the last fiscal
Les Entreprises du Cap-Diamant (Ste. Foy) Les Entreprises du Cap-Diamant (Ste. Foy>
Ovila Boucher (Berthier)
Ovila Boucher (Berthier)
(state agent)
year the federal government has extended development assistance to India and Pakistan in the form of capital projects, equipment, commodities and technical assistance. The appropriations for each country by fiscal years during the period concerned were:
India	Pakistan
1958-59	$21.45	million	$13.00	million1959-60	25.00	ti	15.00	ii1960-61	25.00	ii	15.00	it1961-62	25.00	ii	15.00	it1962-63	19.50	it	12.10	"2.	The main estimates for 1963-64 which have been tabled in parliament contain an item of $41.5 million for Colombo plan purposes. Of this amount it is expected that $19.5 million and $12.25 million will be allocated to India and Pakistan respectively. These total amounts will be committed during the current fiscal year to projects which have been submitted by the governments of the two countries.3.	In each of the fiscal years since 1958 Canada has advised the governments of India and Pakistan of their allocation of Colombo plan funds and those governments have designed their Canadian program accordingly,



DECREASE IN INVENTORY, ARMED FORCES

Mr. Malheson: In the light of the answer given to question No. 906, by what estimated amount has the equipment inventory of the Canadian (a) navy (b) army and (c) air force decreased in value since 1956?
Answer: The inventories of the services are maintained on a physical basis only and figures for the value of our inventories are not available.



ARMED FORCES EXPENDITURES

Mr. Malheson: In each of the last ten years of record, what have the (a) navy (b) army and (c) air force spent for (i) equipment and (ii) all other purposes?
Answer:
2844	Questions	HOUSE OF	COMMONS	(WOO)	1962-63	1961-62	1960-61	1959-60	1958-59(a) Navy	(i)	Equipment	
(ii)	Other	62,389 211,125	62,046 213,574	46,820 202,095	58,737 200,133	82,040 193,325(b) 'Army	(i)	Equipment	
(ii)	Other	28,539 416,489	28,859 415,056	29,493 375,233	27,330 376,699	42,336 393,155(c) Air Force	(i)	Equipment	
(ii)	Other	152,812 566,298	225,659 567,052	204,770 556,418	201,837 546,689	300,696 539,4701957-58	1956-57	1955-56	1954-55	1953-54112,635 184,608	150,822 178,718	169,693 173,908	143,058 162,715	150,081 141,29930,580 298,831	55,133 408,248	69,066 396,018	94,711 362,446	105,233 334,315266,224 593,957	244,286 657,272	302,754 521,866	379,013 454,869	472,457 454,245PER CAPITA	DEBT AND NATIONAL	PRODUCT	chartered banks-personal loans;	life insur-
Question No. 1,061-Mr. Maiheson:
1.	What is the per capita direct and guaranteed (a) municipal (b) provincial (c) federal and (d) total public debt and debt service in each year commencing 1955, up to and including the most
jLCCCin uuuuuatiuiK
2.	What are the annual totals of (a), (b), (c) and (d)?
3.	What Is the per capita consumer debt in each year, 1955 to date?
4.	What is the annual per capita gross national product in each of these years?
Answer: 1 and 2. See attached statement.
3. The dominion bureau of statistics publishes a monthly report "Credit Statistics" catalogue No. 61-004. The data in this report represent only the estimated amount outstanding on the books of selected holders of credit and are not intended to cover total credit. Information is not available on certain avenues of service credit such as the amount owing to doctors, dentists, and certain service establishments as hotels, the outstanding balances owing to utility companies, transportation companies, loans between individuals, etc. There is, therefore, no absolute total of consumer credit available.
The totals for credit shown below is the total of balances outstanding on the books of the following types of companies: Sales finance companies; small loan companies;
ance companies policy loans; Quebec savings bank loans; retail dealers; oil company credit cards; credit unions.
A breakdown of credit outstanding is shown
for pach tynp of boldpr in thp monthly dominion bureau of statistics report, catalogue No. 61-004, "Credit Statistics".
Popu-	Credit	Per Capita CreditYear	lation1	standing	standing(thousands)	(millions)	(dollars)1955	15,698	2,956	1881956	16,081	3,303	2051957	16,610	3,365	2031958	17,080	3,676	2151959	17,483	4,117	2351960	17,870	4,448	2491961	18,238	4,817	2641962	18,570	5,2422	2821	Estimated as of June 1 for intercensal years.2	Balances outstanding for credit unions not available for 1962-same figure of $525,000,000 for 1961 used for 1962.4.	Annual per capita gross national product: 1955, $1,728; 1956, $1,902; 1957, $1,921; 1958, $1,926; 1959, $1,997; 1960, $2,029; 1961, $2,052; 1962, $2,176.



SELECTED PUBLIC DEBT STATISTICS FOR FISCAL YEARS ENDED NEAREST DECEMBER 31

[Stage Direction]
1955	1956	1957	1958	1959	1960	Total Per capita	Total Per capita	Total Per capita	Total Per capita	Total Per capita	Total Per capita	$'000	$	$'000	$	$'000	$	$'000	$	$'000	S	$'000	$Direct and guaranteed debt:1	Federal	20,000,052	1,247	19,818,806	1,193	20,455,724	1,198 23,204,316	1,327	25,060,182	1,402	26,385,600	1,447Provincial	4,173,059	259	4,666,896	281	5,209,490	305	5,859,136	335	6,408,457	359	7,105,221	390Municipal	2,662,096	166	3,055,701	184	3,387,147	198	3,821,046	218	4,334,289	242	4,843,347	265Total2	. 26,895,207	1,672	27,541,403	1,658	29,052,361	1,701 32,884,498	1,880	35,802,928	2,003	38,334,168	2,102Total3	26,583,705	1,653	25,183,314	1,636	28,674,055	1,679 32,475,171	1,857	35,361,661	1,979	37,843,633	2,075Debt charges excluding debt	retirement:4	Federal	438,185	27.92	471,274	29.30	500,083	30.11	545,721	31.95	657,066	37.58	654,411	36.62Provincial	54,817	3.49	55,308	3.44	54,844	3.30	55,351	3.24	57,076	3.26	66,878	3.74Municipal	50,281	3.20	66,849	4.16	85,052	5.12	101,226	5.92	117,753	6.74	144,468	8.08Total	543,283	34.61	593,431	36.90	639,979	38.53	702,298	41.11	831,895	47.58	865,757	48.44
1Less sinking funds.
2Inter-government debt not eliminated.
3Inter-government debt eliminated.
4On direct debt only; after deducting interest revenue and other recoverable debt charges; debt charges on guaranteed debt not available.

Questions
[Stage Direction]
Questions

Mr. Hamilton: 1.	By calendar years 1953 to 1962, what has been the total production, imports and exports, of steel for Canada?
2.	What is the estimated amount in wages for each of the above mentioned years?
3.	What is the amount, and value of exports of iron in the same ten years?
Answer: 1. Production, imports and exports of steel, 1953-1962:
Year	Production! (thousands of	Imports* net tons)	Exports11953	4,116	1,716	3021954	3,195	1,394	731955	4,535	1,450	5051956	5,301	2,819	2811957	5,068	2,921	3881958	4,359	1,794	3781959	5,901	1,482	5711960	5,809	1,310	9901961	6,466	1,057	8371962	7,174	1,010	986
tTotal ingots plus castings.
* Compiled on an equivalent steel ingot and castings basis. Imports and exports of steel rolling mill products orc converted to tuc equivalent ingot and castings basis by using a conversion factor of 0.78.
2. Salaries and wages: primary iron and steel industry, 1953-1962:
Year	Salaries	Wages	Total$	$	$1953	21,000,000	114,000,000	135,000,0001954	22,000,000	91,000,000	113,000,0001955	24,000,000	118,000,000	142,000,0001956	28,000,000	142,000,000	170,000,0001957	32,991,000	144,000,000	176,991,0001958	32,739,000	120,000,000	153,739,0001959	37,459,000	152,000,000	189,459,0001960	40,081,000	153,812,000	193,893,0001961	40,000,000	158,000,000	198,000,0001962	43,000,000	171,000,000	214,000,000
Note: 1. 1953-1956 and 1961-1962 adjusted for historical continuity.
2.	The primary iron and steel industry includes establishments engaged chiefly in the manufacture of pig iron, ferro-alloys, steel ingots and castings and rolled steel products. The larger mills operate on an integrated basis; that is, operate divisions which process iron ore and scrap through various stages to a finished rolled steel product. These mills file a single consolidated report and, therefore, it is not possible to develop salary and wage data relating specifically to the production of steel.
3.	Exports of iron in the calendar years 1953 to 1962 were as follows:

Year	Tons	Value1953	345,415	$16,984,2571954	202,603	10,021,6721955	254,472	13,272,6351956	257,627	14,117,0441957	577,600	33,078,3511958	336,591	18,260,2801959	468,335	25,221,1661960	483,205	24,183,3081961	602,175	29,482,3441962	463,921	25,589,662Footnote:	Includes pig	iron in all y<
sponge iron and other primary iron from 1960.



MONETARY FUND LOAN TO CANADA

Mr. Thompson: 1.	Has the loan received by Canada from the international monetary fund, following the financial crisis of June 1962, been repaid?
2.	Was any interest charged on this loan and, if so, what rate of interest, and how much has been paid to date?
3.	What conditions were attached by the I.M.F. to making this loan?
Answer: 1. No.
2.	Charges for foreign currency drawings from the I.M.F. are in two parts: (1) a fixed service charge one half of 1 per cent on the total amount of foreign currency purchased from the fund, payable at the time of the drawing. This service charge, paid at the time of Canada's drawing, amounted to U.S. $1.5 million; (2) a charge payable quarterly after the first quarter following a drawing, on the fund's holdings at the time of a member's currency in excess of the member's quota. The rate depends on how long the drawing remains unpaid. Charges at the rate of 2 per cent per annum paid by Canada up to and including the quarter ended April 30, 1963, have amounted to U.S. $1,639,000.
3.	The government's emergency program, as announced on June 24, 1962, was communicated to the fund authorities. The fund accepted that the government was making "reasonable efforts to solve its problems".



UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE FUND

Mr. Howe (Hamilton: South):
1.	What is the present financial state of the unemployment insurance fund?
2.	What are its future prospects?


Mr. MacEachen:: 1. The balance in the unemployment insurance fund as of 30 June, 1963, was minus $24,777,135.85.
2. The answer I gave in reply to a similar question appearing in Hansard of 3 July, 1963, was that the fund at 31 May, 1963 stood at minus $37,181,721.58.

I have been informed that during June 1963, $12,000,000 of the loan was reimbursed and as of 26 July inclusive, another $18,000,000 has been reimbursed.
It is expected that the whole loan will have been completely repaid by 9 August, 1963.



NEGROES IN PUBLIC SERVICE

Mr. Malher: 1.	How many Canadian negroes are presently employed within the federal civil service in each province in Canada?
2.	How many Canadian negroes whose applications have reached the stage of interviewing for employment have been hired?
3.	How many have not been hired, and for what reasons?
4.	How many are employed in the following categories (a) professional (b) clerical (c) skilled labour (d) semi-skilled labour and (e) manual labour?
5.	What are the ages and salaries of the employees in each of the categories of part 4 above?
Answer: I have been given the following answer by the civil service commission:
1, 2, 3, 4 and 5: Without a lengthy and expensive search, none of the five questions referred to above can be answered with any accuracy because the civil service commission, under the provisions of the Civil Service Act, cannot and does not take into account whether a candidate is white, yellow, brown or black but simply whether he or she is competent and meets the other requirements set forth in the act.



* CHARITABLE DONATION RECEIPTS, QUEBEC

Mr. Marcoux: 1.	Has a special order been given to the officers of the Quebec regional office of the Department of National Revenue to question the validity of the vouchers for charitable donations annexed to the income tax returns and if not, under what authority is their validity being questioned?
2.	Does the Minister of National Revenue intend to put a stop to this practice?


John Richard Garland: The answer to the first part of the question is no. However, I should explain that officers of all district offices in Canada of the Department of National Revenue in the course of their duties are required to assure themselves of the validity of charitable donation receipts attached to income tax returns.
The answer to the second part of the question is no.



M.M.R.A. ASSISTANCE ON CAUSEWAY, MONCTON, N.B.

Mr. Coates: Has a request been received from the government of the province of New Brunswick for assistance
Questions
from the staff of the M.M.R.A. in determining the best possible site for the construction of a causeway or a bridge to cross the Petitcodiac river at or near Moncton and, if so, who will pay for the services rendered by the M.M.R.A.?


Harry William Hays: The government of New Brunswick requested the government of Canada on January 20, 1960, for assistance through the staff of the maritime marshland rehabilitation administration in making a feasibility survey of a proposal to build a causeway across the Petitcodiac river near the city of Moncton.
The request was granted and a report of the survey was submitted to the province on April 7, 1961, describing three possible locations for a causeway. No charges were made for the services of the M.M.R.A. engineers. Discussions between the engineers of both governments have taken place from time to time since the survey was made.



REPORT ON SOIL TEST, PORT ELGIN, ONT.

Mr. Loney: What was the nature of the report made to the Department of Public Works by Mr. D. R. Prior concerning the soil test of the harbour and immediate area at Port Elgin, Ontario?


Hubert Badanai: Mr. Prior is an employee of the Department of Public Works. He is carrying out test borings in the harbour and keeping a record of them. The resulting core samples will have to be analysed at laboratories in Ottawa before a meaningful report can be prepared and this has not been done as yet,



GOLD MINING ASSISTANCE, SPRINGFIELD CONSTITUENCY

Mr. Slogan: 1.	What amount has been paid to mines in the constituency of Springfield under the Gold Mining Assistance Act in each year since the inception of the act?
2.	Was the federal government approached in any way to assist the San Antonio Gold Mines, Bissett, Manitoba, in order to prevent their closing and, if so, what was the response?


Mr. Benidickson:: 1. Four gold mines in the constituency of Springfield, Manitoba, have received assistance under the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act since 1948. Two of the mines, San Antonio Gold Mines Ltd. and its subsidiary, Forty-Four Mines Ltd., are still operating although these two are now considered to be one mine.
The total amount of assistance paid to all gold producers in the Springfield electoral district in each year since 1948 is as follows:
Questions

Year	Assistance
1948	$ 159,681.11
1949	274,471.89
1950	78,042.69
1951	67,704.33
1952	Nil
1953	Nil
1954	123,632.04
1955	110,675.55
1956	196,198.32
1957	187,462.86
1958	229,988.59
1959	217,105.93
1960	208,027.45
1961	250,231.75
1962	238,360.79*

*Not final audited figure.
2. There has been no request made by officials of San Antonio Gold Mines Ltd. to my department for extra assistance of any kind.
However, discussions have been held with San Antonio officials in connection with various aspects of their gold mining operations at Bissett, Manitoba, with respect to the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act and regulations. Assurance was given that every effort permissible under this legislation, would be made in order to help keep the gold mine operating and thus maintain the chief support of the community at Bissett.



TRADE AND COMMERCE EMPLOYEES PAID BY ADVERTISING AGENCIES

Mr. Orlikow: Are there persons on staff in the Department of Trade and Commerce who do not receive their salary from the government of Canada but rather from advertising agencies with offices in Toronto and, if so, (a) how many persons are in this position (b) what are the reasons for this situation (c) have commitments been made to these persons that when permanent positions open up they will be able to apply for these positions (d) will older members of the department be allowed to compete for these positions (e) how are the advertising agencies which have supplied these employees being recompensed for the salaries paid to these employees?
Answer: 1. Ronalds-Reynolds and Company of Toronto and Montreal, one of the advertising agencies which services the Department of Trade and Commerce is currently engaged in the preparation of export trade promotional material on behalf of the department. Because most of this material is for use in direct mail campaigns abroad in advance of trade fairs in which Canada is participating the materials must be produced on very short deadlines. This work must be carried out in close liaison with and under direction of

officers of the department. Employees of the advertising agency are at present in Ottawa for these reasons.
(a)	Members of the staff of Ronalds-Reynolds and Company at present servicing the department's account in Ottawa number nine. This number is flexible and depends entirely upon the number of departmental projects being serviced at any given point in time.
(b)	It is customary for advertising agencies to service their accounts in this manner.
(c)	No.
(d)	All vacant positions are filled in the manner prescribed by the Civil Service Act.
(e)	The advertising agency bills the department on the basis of service rendered in respect of each project on which it is engaged.



COAL SUPPLY, CAMP SUSSEX, N.B.

['Since April 8, 1963, Canada has attended the following major international meetings in Latin America: the inter-American conference of ministers of labour on the alliance for progress at Bogota, Colombia, May 5 to 11, as observers; the tenth session of the economic commission for Latin America at Mar del Plata, Argentina, May 6 to 17; the special meeting of assembly and\n\nthe seventh meeting of the directing council of the pan-American institute of geography and history at Mexico City, July 22 to August 2.\nIn addition, Canada attended a meeting largely concerned with Latin America in Washington, D.C., the ninth pan-American highway congress, May 6 to 18.']
Mr. Drury:: 1. Weaver Coal Company, 1155
~X 

 

 n 1 Ti/r

x___i t-* /-v
ciAwoGi ot., w>) luum mi, muilti cat,
(Awarded on recommendation of the interdepartmental fuels committee, based upon lowest price per B.T.U.
2.	Firm	Total Price
Newcastle Coal Company,
Minto, N.B.	$ 8,925
Dunsinane Coal Ltd., P.O.
Box 70, Sussex, N.B.	9,800



Mr. Doucett: 1.	How much butter oil was sold or disposed of from January 1, 1962 to December 31, 1962?
2.	How much butter oil was sold or disposed of from January 1, 1963 to July 1, 1963?
3.	In what manner was the butter oil disposed of, and to whom?
4.	What amounts were sold, and what prices were received?


Harry William Hays: 1. 352,321 pounds of butter oil were sold from January 1, 1962 to December 31, 1962.
2.	635,841 pounds were sold from January 1, 1963 to July 1, 1963.
3.	The butter oil was packed in poly lined wooden boxes containing 54 pounds net weight and was sold on open offer by the agricultural stabilization board in carload lots, in a frozen condition. It was sold to:
Central Creameries, Charlottetown, P.E.I.; Granby Co-operative, Granby, P.Q.; Dominion Dry Milk Limited, Montreal, P.Q.; Kraft Foods Limited, Montreal, P.Q.; Palm Dairies Limited, Edmonton, Alberta; Canada Packers

Limited, Toronto, Ontario; Fraser Valley Milk Producers Association, Vancouver, B.C.; Shefford Dairy Limited, Lawrenceville, P.Q.
4.	From January 1, 1962 to April 30, 1962, 69,314 pounds were sold on the basis of 78.5 cents per pound in store Ontario and Quebec.
From May 1, 1962 to July 1, 1963, 918,848 pounds were sold on the basis of 65 cents per pound, delivered Ontario, Quebec, maritimes, and British Columbia points; 64 cents basis Manitoba points; 63J cents basis Saskatchewan points.
(Translation):


MACDONALD-CARTIER BRIDGE, OTTAWA  TRUCK RENTALS
Mr. Marlineau: 1.	Are trucks being engaged by the national capital commision or by the federal contractor, for work on the Macdonald-Cartier bridge and, if so, to date how many such trucks have been engaged on this project?
2.	What is the rate of pay or rental at which such trucks are engaged?


Hubert Badanai: 1 and 2. I understand that the federal contractor Dufresne Engineering Limited, of Montreal, engages trucks, but under the contract entered into with the Department of Public Works, the contractor is not required to produce such information. Consequently that information is not available to the department.
(Text):


RAMA, SASK. POSTMASTER
Mr. Korchinski: 1.	Are applications still being accepted for the position of postmaster at Rama, Saskatchewan?
2.	Until what date will applications be accepted?
3.	How was the position advertised?
4.	Was the Canadian Legion notified that there was a vacancy at this point and if so, what date was suggested as final for the receipt of applications?


Azellus Denis: 1. Yes.
2.	No date limit.
3.	Not advertised.
4.	Yes-21 April, 1963.


*TAX ON CANADIAN INVESTMENTS IN FOREIGN SECURITIES
Mr. Mather: Will the government consider a tax on Canadian investments in foreign securities similar to the proposed 15 per cent U.S. tax on American investments in foreign securities?


Walter Lockhart Gordon: The imposition of any kind of tax is a matter of government policy. If the government were to consider such a tax it would be made known to the house at an appropriate time.


CHARLOTTETOWN, P.E.I., RETAINING WALL
Mr. Macquarrie: Has the government received a request from the corporation of the city of Charlottetown for assist-
Questions
ance in repairing the retaining wall on that portion of Victoria park facing Charlottetown harbour and, if so, what degree of assistance does the government plan to offer?


Hubert Badanai: Yes, the Department of Public Works received requests in April 1962 and January 1963. No action was taken because the matter is not regarded as a federal responsibility. The city was advised however, that the project might be considered under the winter works incentive program, which is administered by the Department of Labour.
(Translation):


DIPLOMATIC RELATIONS WITH CUBA
Mr. Laiulippe: 1.	What is the nature of Canada's present diplomatic relations with Cuba, and how many officials and diplomatic personnel does Canada maintain in Cuba?
2.	Has Cuba expropriated or nationalized Canadian investments or property since the overthrow of the Batista regime and if so, (a) what were the properties and the amounts involved (b) what compensation was paid for these properties (c) did the Canadian government make representations to Cuba in this respect (d) what was the result of these representations?
3.	Did the Canadian government make representations in connection with the expropriation by Cuba of the American embassy in that country, and what were these representations?


Mr. Martin (Essex East):: 1. Canada maintains diplomatic relations with Cuba. We have four diplomatic representatives in Cuba: an ambassador, a first secretary and consul, a second secretary and a third secretary and vice-consul.
2.	The Cuban government has expropriated or nationalized Canadian investments and properties, (a) There is no complete list available of all Canadian investments and properties which have been expropriated in Cuba, and their value. The Canadian government has recorded all Canadian claims drawn to its attention, but feels that it would not be proper to publish those claims without the permission of the parties concerned, (b) The amount of the claims paid to the claimants, as the case may be, is not known, since any compensation would have been paid directly to those concerned, (c) The Canadian government made representations concerning some of those claims, (d) The negotiations with the Cuban government in that regard are not concluded.
3.	No. American interests in Cuba lie with Switzerland.

Questions
(Text):


CIVIL DEFENCE SIRENS, FLIN FLON, MAN.
Mr. Simpson: 1.	How many bids were received for the installation of sirens in the town of Flin Flon, Manitoba, in relation to civil defence?
2.	What companies or individuals submitted bids?
3.	What were the amounts of these bids?
4.	Who was awarded this contract?


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: 1. Two.
2.	Electric Shop (Flin Flon) Ltd., Flin Flon, Manitoba; Flin Flon Century Electric Ltd., Flin Flon, Manitoba.
3.	Electric Shop (Flin Flon) Ltd., $5,411.; Flin Flon Century Electric Ltd., $4,381.
4.	Flin Flon Century Electric Ltd.


SALE OF BUTTER TO U.K
Mr. Mather: 1.	What is the present volume of surplus butter and oil in government storage?
2.	Has the government any information concerning a temporary butter shortage in the United Kingdom?
3.	Is the government making efforts to dispose of surplus butter to the United Kingdom?


Harry William Hays: 1. Government stocks of butter and butter oil as at July 1, 1963, were:
Rutter. 104 5 million pounds.
Butter oil, 81.3 million pounds.
2 and 3. The entire question of the butter supply situation in the United Kingdom and the possibility of selling butter or butter oil on that market is under investigation.


SUMMER COURSES, GROSSE ISLE, QUE.
Mr. Berger: Does the Department of National Health and Welfare sponsor summer courses at Grosse Isle, Montmagny county, Quebec, and, if so (a) by whom are these courses organized, and of what do they consist (b) who is permitted to follow these courses, and how many persons follow them (c) what personnel is required for the purpose of conducting the courses, and what is the annual cost of the said operation?


Julia Verlyn (Judy) LaMarsh: No summer courses are sponsored by the Department of National Health and Welfare at Grosse Isle.


*CANADIAN ATTENDANCE AT INTERNATIONAL MEETINGS IN LATIN AMERICA
Mr. Whelan: Since April 8, 1963, what major international meetings, if any, has Canada attended in Latin America?


Mr. Stewart:: Since April 8, 1963, Canada has attended the following major international meetings in Latin America: the inter-American conference of ministers of labour on the alliance for progress at Bogota, Colombia, May 5 to 11, as observers; the tenth session of the economic commission for Latin America at Mar del Plata, Argentina, May 6 to 17; the special meeting of assembly and

the seventh meeting of the directing council of the pan-American institute of geography and history at Mexico City, July 22 to August 2.
In addition, Canada attended a meeting largely concerned with Latin America in Washington, D.C., the ninth pan-American highway congress, May 6 to 18.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


[Stage Direction]
Question No. 454
Mr. Fisher:: 1.	What grants or sums were paid by the Indian affairs branch in 1960, 1961, and 1962 to churches or religious organizations for school and domicile of Indian charges of the branch?
2.	To what churches and orders, by province, by reserve or by location, did these grants or sums go?
Return tabled.


CANADIAN PARTICIPATION IN MILITARY OPERATIONS
Mr. Maiheson: 1.	In what military operations have Canadian forces participated since the signing of the Korean
Cv-uGc uIC agtCCmuui, uii oUij a", IOuui
2.	Why did Canada participate in each of these operations, and what was the nature, and the extent of her contribution?


MOTIONS FOR PAPERS
[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 62-Mr. Barnett:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency for a copy of the cabinet minute or other official document which authorized the Secretary of State for External Affairs to notify the executive director, the international north Pacific fisheries commission, by telegram under date of May 10, 1963, that the commission's recommendations for the removal of the halibut stocks in the eastern Bering sea and the herring stocks west of the Queen Charlotte islands from the annex to the convention had been accepted by the government of Canada.
He said: Mr. Speaker, at the suggestion of the minister I am prepared to ask that this motion stand.
Motion stands.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 68-Mr. Martineau:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house copies of all correspondence, telegrams, letters and other documents exchanged between the governments of Canada and the United States, or between officials of the said governments, relating to the new excise tax on the purchase by United States residents of Canadian securities and those of 21 other countries proposed by President Kennedy on July 18, 1963.

Inquiries of the Ministry EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Mr.   Marlin@Essex East: Mr. Speaker, it is not the practice to produce documents exchanged with a foreign government except with the agreement of that government. However, without departing from this rule, I am able to inform my hon. friend and the house that in fact, apart from the joint statement which was tabled and published in Hansard on July 22, no correspondence, telegrams, letters or other documents were exchanged between the governments of Canada and the United States, or between officials of the said governments, relating to the United States excise tax on the purchase by United States residents of Canadian securities and those of 21 other countries, proposed by President Kennedy on July 18, 1963.


Mr. Speaker:: Is the motion withdrawn?


Mr. Marlineau:: In view of the minister's remarks, and seeing there was no written consultation, I agree to withdraw my motion.
Order discharged and motion withdrawn.


RESIGNATION OF ASSISTANT DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE
[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 74-Mr. Hamilton:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of the letter of resignation of Dr. D. K. Kristjanson, associate deputy minister of agriculture to the Department of Agriculture.
Harry William Hays: Mr. Speaker, there has been no formal letter of resignation received from Dr. Kristjanson. The only letter received from Dr. Kristjanson relative to this subject is a confidential letter of July 22, 1963 addressed to the deputy minister of agriculture. In view of the letter having been marked "confidential" I am sure the hon. member for Qu'Appelle will agree that it would not be appropriate to table it, and I therefore suggest he will wish to withdraw his motion.


Mr. Speaker:: Does the hon. member agree to withdraw his motion?


Mr. Hamilton:: Mr. Speaker, since the
letter was marked "confidential" I have no choice but to withdraw my motion.
Order discharged and motion withdrawn.


COMMUNIQUE OF CONFERENCE OF CARIBBEAN COUNTRIES
[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 75-Mr. Maiheson:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of the communique issued by the conference of Caribbean countries, on the general question of economic and technical aid, which opened at Port of Spain on Monday, July 22, 1963.
He said: Mr. Speaker, I have been advised that Canada was not represented at this conference. Accordingly I would respectfully ask that this motion be withdrawn.
Order discharged and motion withdrawn.
28902-5-181

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, is the Secretary of State for External Affairs in a position to give the house a report regarding the concentration of communist Chinese forces on the boundaries of India?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, there is
nothing I can add to what has already been given in the newspapers thus far, unless there have been further developments within recent hours. I can say to my hon. friend that this matter is being pursued, naturally, with interest and with the kind of concern that the circumstances warrant.


REPORTED CHARGE RESPECTING CANADIAN
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr.  A. B. Paflerson@Fraser Valley: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs. Would the minister comment on the charge by a spokesman of the Laotian patriotic front to the effect that the Canadian Secretary of State for External Affairs is trying to cover up violations of the Geneva agreement on Laos, and the demand that the Canadian representative on the international control commission respect the sovereignty of Laos and correctly implement the Geneva agreement and all agreements reached by the three parties on Laos.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, in reply I would say that so far from trying to cover up violations of the Geneva agreement on Laos, it has been the consistent policy of Canadian governments since the Geneva conferences on Laos in 1961 and 1962 to help the international control commission to perform its function of looking into complaints and reports of violations of the agreement. If there has been any violation of the agreement or opposition to the functioning of the commission it has not, of course, come from anyone speaking on behalf of Canada.
As to respect for the sovereignty of Laos, this is one of those double edged phrases by which communist parties often try to prevent international bodies from carrying out their agreed functions. The Canadian component of the commission has always acted in accordance with the Geneva agreement to which Laos is a party with the concurrence of all factions including the Pathet Lao.

Inquiries of the Ministry (Translation):


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Remi Paul (Berihier-Maskinonge-De-lanaudiere):: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Prime Minister? Is it true that the government might try to obtain signing the three-power pact for the abolition of nuclear tests, in order to delay the signing of an agreement with Washington on the acquisition of nuclear weapons, as stated yesterday by the Minister of Justice on the C.B.C. program entitled "Aujourd'hui"?
(Text):


Right Hon. L. B. Pearson (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, I do not think the Minister of Justice made any such statement. In any event the position of the government on this matter has been made clear in the house.


Mr. Pigeon:: We will prove that.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. T. C. Douglas (Burnaby-Coquitlam):: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Minister of Labour whether he has received a telegram from Mr. Phillip P. Cave of the retail clerks international association protesting that the unemployment insurance commission is sending strikebreakers through the picket lines which his union has set up in a legal strike against Loblaws throughout Saskatchewan, and further protesting that the unemployment insurance commission are suggesting to the strikebreakers that failure to cross the picket lines might result in loss of benefits. If so, would the minister assure the house that such activities by the unemployment insurance commission will cease at once?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: Mr. Speaker, I wish to thank the hon. member for notice of this question. In reply I would tell him that I have received such a telegram and I would like to explain the situation to the hon. member and to the house.
The unemployment insurance commission offices at Regina and Saskatoon received orders for workers from Loblaws. Persons registered for work at these offices were offered referral to this employment and were advised that the establishments concerned are involved in an industrial dispute. This is in accordance with practice. Certain of these workers accepted referral, but in some cases unemployment insurance benefit claimants


who refused referral, as was their right, were asked for information which may have given the impression that their entitlement to unemployment insurance benefit had been jeopardized. The fact is that employment in a strikebound plant is not suitable employment and may be refused without putting benefit in jeopardy.



LABOUR RELATIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Michael Starr (Ontario):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to address a question to the Prime Minister. In view of the possibility of adjournment for the summer within the next few days, would the Prime Minister say whether the government is going to bring at least part of the Norris commission report before parliament, or is there a possibility of implementing the whole report?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Burnaby-Coquitlam asked me a question about this yesterday. I indicated to him at that time that t i, +Q	o position to mstlco	st?.toment this afternoon but I regret, Mr. Speaker, that I cannot do so this afternoon because we are still considering whether the recommendations of the Norris commission report, or some of them, can be implemented in this part of the session. There is considerable difficulty over establishing, in respect of some of these recommendations, the constitutional authority of the federal government with regard to the matters which are dealt with, but I hope to be in a position, or I hope the Minister of Labour will be in a position, to make a statement on the matter tomorrow. I am sorry I cannot so do today.


Hon. Leon Balcer (Three Rivers):: A supplementary question I should like to direct to the Minister of Labour. I wonder whether the minister is aware that in the last few days railway lines were blown up and workers and their wives were threatened in Marquette, Michigan, where a Canadian ship is tied up at the present time. I wonder whether the Minister of Labour could tell us whether, if there is no implementation of the Norris report, there could be some precise action taken by the Canadian government to prevent these incidents happening.


Allan Joseph MacEachen: Mr. Speaker, I am aware of the incident in Marquette involving the Canadian ship Red Wing, and of the threats apparently made to wives of workmen who would be involved with this particular ship. I would tell my hon. friend that the precise action to be taken

falls under United States law. In various ports in the United States injunctive relief has been sought against this type of activity, in some cases with success and in other cases with very little success.
With regard to the situation in Chicago, I should tell the hon. member that the national labour relations board has now decided to press contempt charges against the S.I.U. and the I.L.A. as an alternative to action against individual union members who have refused to unload the Howard L. Shaw. This most recent incident in Marquette has been drawn to the attention of the Department of External Affairs for possible representations to the United States authorities.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, would the Minister of Labour say whether there has been any communication received from Hal Banks, other than the tirade from the S.I.U. in recent days, in connection with the Norris report, or anything arising out of the actions on the great lakes?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: The only communication I received was a telegram from Mr. Banks, which I think was received by other members of the government, complaining about the conduct of the Norris inquiry and making allegations that the inquiry was unfair. That is the only communication.


Mr. A. D. Hales (Wellington South):: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Could the Minister of Labour inform the house whether he has been successful in arranging a meeting with the U.S. secretary of labour, Mr. Wirtz, concerning this very serious problem?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: It has been difficult, in view of the preoccupations of Mr. Wirtz in the United States, to arrange a mutually convenient time. I had hoped to meet him in Ottawa, but Mr. Wirtz is unable to leave his own preoccupations at this time. At the same time I also felt that the timing of the meeting might be so adjusted as to take into account any firm decisions made by the Canadian government about the Norris commission recommendations.


Gilles Grégoire: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Did the Minister of Labour reply to the telegram from Hal Banks, and can we know the nature of the reply if there was one?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: Mr. Speaker, I have not replied as yet; I was working on a reply this morning.


Michael Starr: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question which I direct to the minister for external affairs. This is the first question I have directed to him, so I 28902-5-181J
Inquiries of the Ministry hope he is able to reply in, at most, two short sentences. Would the minister of external affairs, with his great capacity for bringing about agreements and action, contemplate going to Washington and taking up with the government of the United States, the whole question of Canadian ships being harassed in United States ports, and ask them to take some definite action?


Hon. Paul  Marlin@Secretary of Slate for External Affairs: Mr. Speaker, in answer to the long and complicated question of my hon. friend I would simply say that my colleague the Minister of Labour and I are giving these matters our joint attention.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Minister of Labour a question along the same lines. I notice that he had some discussions today with the two independent legal counsel he has hired to deal with the Norris report, and I should like to ask him whether he asked these gentlemen also to advise him on the possibility of taking criminal action against Canada Steamship Lines or any of the other companies which the Norris report suggested may have been in collusion with Mr. Banks.


Allan Joseph MacEachen: Mr. Speaker, the decision to appoint special counsel was taken pursuant to a recommendation of Mr. Justice Norris with respect to the activities of the S.I.U. and its officers. In my informal discussions today with these gentlemen I did not go beyond that particular part of the recommendations made by Justice Norris.


Léon Balcer: May I ask a further supplementary question. I wonder whether the minister could tell us if he is making any progress toward the implementation of the recommendation of the Norris report to the effect that the labour unions should be placed under government trusteeship.


Allan Joseph MacEachen: Mr. Speaker, the principal recommendation of the Norris report is the establishment of a trusteeship over the unions in the maritime transportation field. I may tell my hon. friend, in view of his question posed several days ago, that I have now received from all the unions affected, except the S.I.U., their support for the implementation of this particular recommendation of the Norris report.



B.c. FISHERMEN'S STRIKE-INQUIRY AS TO ARBITRATOR

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Barry Maiher (New Wesiminsier):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question I wanted to direct to the Minister of Fisheries but in his absence

Inquiries of the Ministry perhaps the parliamentary secretary can take it as notice. The question is with reference to the announcement made yesterday by the Minister of Fisheries respecting his recommendation of the establishment of a joint provincial-federal arbitrator in the British Columbia fishing dispute. Can the minister say whether the arbitration will proceed under provincial or federal arbitration legislation, also what will be the powers and terms of reference of the arbitrator?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I will bring the question to the attention of the minister.



OLD AGE SECURITY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. A. Olson (Medicine Hat):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to address a question to the Prime Minister arising out of a statement or a reply which he gave to the house yesterday with regard to the pension plan. I did not notice any reference to any specific date in me Prime Minister's reply, yet this morning's press states that the government hopes to achieve this plan by January 1. I should like to ask him whether any additional information has been given outside the house with regard to this pension plan and, if so, whether the house could have the benefit of this information now.


Lester Bowles Pearson: No, Mr. Speaker, I gave no such information and mentioned no such date either in the house or outside it.


Stanley Howard Knowles: In view of the date which has been suggested by the Canadian Press, can the Prime Minister confirm that it is the intention of the government that the $10 increase shall come into effect by that date, or is the government still considering making an announcement later this week as to what the effective date may be?


Lester Bowles Pearson: No, Mr. Speaker. I cannot confirm or deny it because I have made no such statement.


Mr. E. Nasserden (Rosthern):: I have a supplementary question to put to the Prime Minister in relation to the question asked a little while ago on the subject of pensions. Did the government consider making the increase retroactive to April 8?


Lester Bowles Pearson: No, Mr. Speaker.



PENSIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. P. B. Rynard (Simcoe East):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Minister of National Health and Welfare a question. I wonder whether the hon. lady is in a position to give us a report on whether the qualified actuaries of the Department of National Health and Welfare who have studied the proposed federal contributory pension plan have confirmed the opinion of outside actuaries, as reported in the press, that the real cost of this plan is going to be between 9 per cent and 11 per cent?


Julia Verlyn (Judy) LaMarsh: Mr. Speaker, rather than the treasury departments' actuaries having studied the plan, as my friend suggests, they in fact helped to prepare the plan. The suggestion which has been made that the real cost will be 15 per cent is and always has been completely erroneous. As has been explained to all those who will listen, the figures which were given at the time of the submission are correct so far as actuaries are able to be precise bearing in iiiiiiu that we are projecting into the future.
The maximum amount to the year 2000 which has been contemplated at any time is 5 per cent and not 15 per cent. It will be noted from releases made to the press by those who have suggested that 15 per cent will be the figure eventually, that they count together the 3 per cent personal income tax, 3 per cent corporation tax and 3 per cent sales tax which support the old age security fund, and add them as though they were a percentage of payroll and part of the contributory pension scheme itself when in fact they are on a completely different tax base. This is patently not correct, and anyone who knows his job as an actuary should know this.


Philip Bernard Rynard: I have a supplementary question. What was the actual cost that the actuaries of the Department of National Health and Welfare brought down?


Julia Verlyn (Judy) LaMarsh: As was set out in the white paper, which I must assume my friend has read, and if he has, he has forgotten, the figure was 2 per cent.



COLUMBIA RIVER


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. W. Herridge (Kootenay West):: wish to direct a question to the Secretary of

State for External Affairs. In view of press items to the effect that the minister will participate in the annual Kelowna regatta next Saturday-and I presume he will be the guest of the premier of the province of British Columbia-and that he then intends to tour the Columbia river basin in Canada and the United States on Monday; and in view of the minister's known affection for aquatic sports, would the hon. gentleman accept an invitation from the Arrow lakes water resources committee to a swimming gala on Sunday, August 4, which will provide an opportunity for a cool and objective discussion of the Columbia river treaty?
Hon, Paul Martin (Secretary of Stale for External Affairs): I should like to thank the hon. gentleman for having given me notice of his intention to ask this important question. I will have to give consideration to the invitation which the hon. member now sends across the floor, and I am sure that if it can be accepted I will get along with his constituents swimmingly.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Would the minister let me know by not later than tomorrow evening so that I could have all the arrangements made?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I shall be glad to give consideration to this amended request of the hon. gentleman.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Paul Joseph James Martin: The Leader of the Opposition asked yesterday whether it is the intention of the government to bring the question of Japan's membership in the O.E.C.D. before parliament for ratification, and I promised to reply today.
Under the O.E.C.D. convention, which this house has already approved, the O.E.C.D. council may decide to invite any government which is prepared to assume the obligations of membership to accede to the convention. The council of O.E.C.D. has now unanimously decided to invite the Japanese government to accede to it. Accession shall take effect upon the Japanese government's deposit of an instrument of accession with the depositary government.
I should like to take this opportunity to welcome Japan's forthcoming membership in the O.E.C.D. as a further evidence of increasing co-operation between Japan and the countries of Europe and North America.
Inquiries of the Ministry


John George Diefenbaker: So there is nothing necessary to be done by this parliament in order to confirm Japan's adherence. May I, having asked that question and received the negative reply I did, join with the Secretary of State for External Affairs in welcoming Japan to membership of this organization. When I was in Japan a year and a half ago this was one matter which particularly exercised people there, and I am glad Japan is to become a member of this great organization.



WEST INDIES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Lloyd R. Crouse (Queens-Lunenburg):: I wish to address a question to the Prime Minister. As we are nearing the end of this part of the session, would the right hon. gentleman tell the house whether any special studies are contemplated or are being carried out in an effort to improve trade between Canada and the British West Indies, in keeping with his statement on this matter prior to the April 8 election? I ask this question because of the importance of improving trade between Nova Scotia, and the Atlantic provinces generally, and the British West Indies.


Lester Bowles Pearson: I appreciate the importance of this question, especially to the inhabitants of the Atlantic provinces. Attention is being given to it, and studies are under way as to what we could do to improve trade with the West Indies and what additional assistance we might be able to give which would help increase trade between the two areas.



CANADA-U.S.- -STATEMENT BY AGRICULTURE MINISTER

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Marcel Lambert (Edmonton West):: should like to direct a question to the Prime Munster 1 wonder if he is in a position to clarify the situation with regard to a question 1 asked him on Monday afternoon in relation to a speech made by his colleague the Minister of Agriculture at Waterton Lake on the subject of American-Canadian trade relations.


Lester Bowles Pearson: No, Mr. Speaker, I am very sorry. I have not had a chance to talk to my colleague the Minister of Agriculture, but I hope to do so before the recess.



WHEAT-INQUIRY AS TO NEGOTIATIONS WITH RED CHINA

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: May I direct a question to the Minister of

Inquiries of the Ministry Trade and Commerce. Is the minister now in a position to report on the negotiations between the Canadian wheat board and the government of mainland China? If not, when does he expect to be able to make a report?


Hon. Mitchell Sharp (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: These negotiations are now in their final stages. I had hoped I would have been in a position by today to make an announcement, but our Chinese customers are very astute and hard bargainers and the negotiations are not completed.


Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson: In view of the fact that negotiations with mainland China are almost completed, I should like to ask the Minister of Trade and Commerce if the government should not be making arrangements to send the Minister of Agriculture to Hong Kong?



CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hz-, jm Pickcrsji!! (S9cr?t?ry State): Yesterday, the hon. member for Rosthern asked me whether consideration was being given to establishing a French language television station in the province of Saskatchewan. I am afraid I cannot add anything to the answer which was given to his alert colleague, the hon. member for Joliette-L'Assomption-Montcalm, who anticipated this question on June 28 and represented the hon. gentleman's constituents at that time.
I was also asked a question about facilities in southwestern Saskatchewan by the hon. member for Swift Current-Maple Creek. I understand that as far as the C.B.C. is concerned nothing is contemplated in the immediate future. However, I think the hon. member is really interested in a difficulty between certain of the stations before the board of broadcast governors, and I would have to inquire further into that.
As far as the question asked by the hon. member for Okanagan Boundary is concerned, I regret to say that at the present time, because of budgetary limitations and the high cost of providing service, it does not appear there is any immediate hope of action though the situation is being studied.

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Louis-Joseph Pigeon: I should like to address a very important question to the Minister of Transport. Would the minister be willing to have
[Mr. Douglas.)
the words "Air Canada" painted on crown owned aircraft if a few members of parliament bought the paint for the department? The minister can answer yes or no.
On a question of privilege, this question needs to be answered by a simple yes or no, not a statement.


George James McIlraith: I do not think I should be put in the position of commenting on the artistic ability of members of parliament.


Mr. Raymond Langlois (Megantic):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Finance. In view of the answer given to the hon. member for Digby-Annapolis-Kings yesterday on the question of the arrangements being made for the minister to attend a conference to be held in Washington on Friday, may I ask the minister how many students he proposes to invite along with him at this time to help him out?
(Translation):



PENITENTIARIES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Raymond Langlois: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Justice further to the one which I asked him yesterday concerning a delegation of the wives of the guards at St. Vincent de Paul penitentiary. Does the minister have any further information to give us on that subject?


Hon. Lionel Chevrier (Minisier of Jusiice):: Mr. Speaker, the member for Laval (Mr. Rochon) accompanied the delegation which I received in my office yesterday. I conferred with the delegates for half an hour and replied that their request would be considered in due time.
(Text):



ECONOMIC COUNCIL


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. R. N. Thompson (Red Deer):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the President of the Privy Council. Would the hon. gentleman be able to confirm that press reports relating to the expected appointment of Dr. John Deutsch as chairman of the economic council of Canada are factual?


Hon. Maurice Lamonlagne (President of the Privy Council):: Mr. Speaker, I have not seen that report.



PUBLIC SERVICE

[Stage Direction]
REQUEST FOR REVIEW OF WAGE SCALE FOR "b" GROUP
On the orders of the day:
Mr. William Dean Howe (Hamilton South):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Finance. On the basis of pay research bureau figures, is the government considering an immediate review of the wage scale for B group, grades 1 and 2 clerks, typists and clerical assistants in the civil service?


Walter Lockhart Gordon: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman was kind enough to give me notice of his question. In reply I may say that clerks 1 and 2 and other classes at comparable levels were not revised on October 1, 1961 because in the opinion of the government of the day the rates of pay compared favourably with those on the outside. These classes are to be reviewed again on October 1 next as part of the normal review of the B group.



AGRICULTURE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Robert C. Coates (Cumberland):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Agriculture. Can we expect an announcement of government policy related to permanent feed grain assistance for eastern farmers before the recess?


Harry William Hays: Mr. Speaker, we are working on this particular matter at the moment. I am hoping we may have something. Certainly we will have something before the grain starts to move.



IMPLEMENTATION OF FARM CREDIT ACT IN EASTERN CANADA

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Harry William Hays: Mr. Speaker, yesterday the hon. member for Lapointe asked me the following question:
Can the minister inquire and report to this house why there are so many delays and refusals in the implementation of the Farm Credit Act in eastern Canada, and especially in the districts of Lake St. John, Saguenay and in my constituency of Lapointe?
I am informed by the Farm Credit Corporation that the percentage of loan refusals in eastern Canada is not significantly different from that in the rest of Canada, and that in Quebec in particular the percentage of refusals has been less than the national average.
Inquiries of the Ministry
There has been some delay, however, in the processing of applications in Quebec due to the unprecedented increase in the number of applications received. In 1961 by the end of June the corporation had received only 40 applications for loans. In 1962 by June 30, 291 applications had been received. By the same date this year 929 farmers had applied for loans, or about 23 times as many applications as were received two years earlier.
Since the spring of 1962 the corporation has increased its field staff in Quebec from 4 to 26 men. It takes time to recruit and train the men to do this kind of work, but the situation is well in hand and the work will be up to date by the end of the current appraisal season. Because of the large volume of applications received in the constituencies to which the hon. member for Lapointe referred, the corporation has assigned 4 men to bring the work up to date in this area.
Applications received expressed as a percentage of farmers interviewed are 50 per cent for all Canada and 59 per cent in Quebec. The percentage of applications rejected or withdrawn after appraisal of farm is 8.5 per cent for all Canada and 6 per cent for Quebec.



BRIEF RESPECTING ELEVATOR HANDLING AND STORAGE CHARGES

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Harry William Hays: Mr. Speaker, yesterday the hon. member for Moose Jaw-Lake Centre asked if I had any information concerning the brief presented in Winnipeg to the board of grain commissioners regarding grain elevator handling and storage charges for the crop year which begins on August 1.
On June 10, 1963, the hon. gentleman asked a somewhat similar question relating to a meeting to be held in Vancouver by the board of grain commissioners. On June 12, in reply, I informed the house that the board, under authority of section 15 of the Canada Grain Act, holds meetings annually at an easterly point, Winnipeg, and at Vancouver, where interested parties are invited to meet the board and present submissions respecting the maximum storage and handling rates for grain authorized by the board for each crop year.
With specific reference to the question, I can inform the house that the board of grain commissioners held a public meeting in Winnipeg yesterday commencing at 10 a.m. for the purpose I have mentioned, and heard seven briefs presented by interested parties. The board of grain commissioners met at 10 a.m. this morning in Winnipeg to study and discuss these briefs as well as those submitted to the meetings held in Montreal on May 3 and in Vancouver on July 3.

Inquiries of the Ministry
I am pleased to inform the house that this afternoon the board of grain commissioners announced a reduction in the elevator charge at country elevators on wheat, barley, rye and corn from 3 cents per bushel to 2| cents per bushel.



UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Theogene Ricard (St. Hyacinihe-Bagoi):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Labour. In view of the fact that the minister foresees a greater number of unemployed during the winter months, would the minister tell the house what measures he has taken to assure that the unemployment insurance fund will be sufficient to meet the requirements?


Lester Bowles Pearson: The one that went bankrupt.


Allan Joseph MacEachen: Mr. Speaker, I think I should clarify the preamble to the hon. gentleman's question by stating that in reply to a question last week I conveyed to the house information I had iccciveu xi uni my Giiicials With respect to employment prospects; and I think upon reading that statement, which was carefully qualified, it will be seen that my projections applied particularly to this fall.
With respect to the second part of the question, in connection with the unemployment insurance fund, action has already been taken by the government to replenish the fund, and within the next few months the fund will replenish itself because contributions to the fund will exceed benefit payments. The resolution of the long term problem of the fund will depend upon the action taken by this parliament in connection with the amendments to the Unemployment Insurance Act itself. As I have stated, the act is presently under consideration and it is hoped that the government will be in a position to recommend action on this matter.


J.-H.-Théogène Ricard: May I ask a supplementary question. In view of the first answer the minister gave, will he agree with me that he really foresees a greater number of unemployed than we have now?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: The information I conveyed to the house last Friday, I believe, was information that had been conveyed to me shortly after I became Minister of Labour and had been collected and available prior to the swearing in of the present government. The indication was that unemployment would be greater this September than last September.


Alfred Dryden Hales: Will
the minister inform the house as to the methods by which the government intends to increase the unemployment insurance fund? Can he explain to the house what methods he has in mind?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: The traditional method in the past is well known to hon. members. Action has been taken by this house itself several times to replenish the fund. Any further action, other than this, will depend upon the decision of the government as to what amendments or changes ought to be made in the operation of the fund and in the operation of the act.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: I should like to address another question to the Minister of Labour. Is it the intention of the minister to consult experts on this question?



HEALTH AND WELFARE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. Russell MacEwan (Piciou):: I should like to address a question to the Prime Minister. In view of the urgency of this matter in many homes across this country, I should like to ask if it is the intention of the government to extend family allowance benefits before the school term opens in September to children up to 18 years of age who will be returning to school at that time.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, this extension is part of our legislative program. If we had been able to accomplish more this session, it might have been done by now.


Mr. Eric A. Winkler (Grey-Bruce):: I should like to offer a suggestion to the Prime Minister. If he is prepared to bring forth the family allowance extension and also the resolution introducing the Canada pension act, we will give him quick and courteous co-operation.


Lester Bowles Pearson: If there had not been so much delay and obstruction on the other side-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Lester Bowles Pearson: -I repeat that this might well have been done by now.


John George Diefenbaker: I rise on a question of privilege, Mr. Speaker. Only the day before yesterday the Secretary of State was commending the opposition for its co-operation. I suggest that the two hon. gentlemen get together.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I only wish that the co-operation we have had in the last few days had existed for the first 40 days of this session.


John George Diefenbaker: You were in the wilderness then. You did not know where you were going.


Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker, is it the intention of the Minister of National Health and Welfare to withdraw the payment of family allowances for little boys and little girls who smoke?


Julia Verlyn (Judy) LaMarsh: May I answer by saying that family allowance payments are made to the mother.


Léon Balcer: I did not want to attack the hon. lady personally because, being over 17, she is not included with the little girls who get family allowances.


Stanley Howard Knowles: May I direct a question to either the Prime Minister or the Secretary of State in his capacity as house leader. In view of the suggestions that have been made about family allowances and old age pensions, would the government accept an offer from the house to sit next week or come back earlier in September so that we could deal with these two important pieces of legislation?


Lester Bowles Pearson: We hope to deal with these two important matters at the earliest possible date after our return.


Michael Starr: Now we know the reason it was not brought forward.


Stanley Howard Knowles: In view of this announcement, will consideration be given to our being brought back earlier than September 30 so that we can go ahead with these matters?



FISHERIES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. T. S. Barnett (Comox-Alberni):: I have a question for the Secretary of State, which, in his capacity as Acting Minister of Fisheries he may wish to take as notice. In view of the fact that one of the principal factors in the fisheries situation in British Columbia involves the price being paid for pink salmon, and in view of the fact that this condition arises out of the very abnormal catch of pink salmon last year, will the minister indicate whether the government will consider directing the 28902-5-182
Inquiries of the Ministry fisheries prices support board to take action in this connection which might facilitate the settlement of this dispute, and which might make the task of an arbitrator considerably easier if he comes into the picture?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Since I am not Acting Minister of Fisheries, I probably should not take this speech made by the hon. gentleman as notice. I have no doubt that if the hypothesis suggested by the hon. gentleman turns out ultimately to be a fact, the Minister of Fisheries will give consideration to the hypothetical proposition put forward.


Thomas Speakman Barnett: I suggest to the minister that he visit British Columbia, and then he might know as much about our problems as he undoubtedly knows about those of his area.


John Whitney Pickersgill: My hon. friend the Solicitor General is the Acting Minister of Fisheries, and I am sure he will be glad to take notice of the hon. gentleman's question.



TRANSPORT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Thomas M. Bell (Saint John-Alberl):: should like to direct a question to the Minister of Transport. In view of the announcement today of a large new grain elevator in Quebec and the reference to possible wheat sales, will the minister investigate the possibility of directing shipments through the ports of Halifax and Saint John, thus making use of the excellent facilities for grain in the forthcoming season? In fact, these ports have not been used to any great advantage within the last three years.


George James McIlraith: Yes, I would be happy to look into it. (Translation):



TRANS-CANADA AIR LINES INQUIRY AS TO PURCHASE OF CARAVELLE PLANES

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Georges-J. Valade: Mr. Speaker, I should like to put a question to the Minister of Transport. Has he received or asked for a report from Trans-Canada Air Lines engineers concerning the purchase of Caravelle aircraft? Could he tell the house whether he is aware of the study being carried out in the last four or five months with a view to choosing between four types of aircraft? Has the minister received this report and, if so, is he in a position to inform the house on this matter?
(Text):


Mr. Speaker:: May I suggest that this is a question for the order paper.

Inquiries of the Ministry Mr. Valade: On a question of privilege-


Mr. Speaker:: There is no point of privilege. I have ruled on the question after listening to it very carefully.
(Translation):


Georges-J. Valade: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Transport. Is he aware that Trans-Canada Air Lines has made a study concerning the purchase of Caravelle aircraft?
(Text):


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. This is the same question in an indirect way.


Georges-J. Valade: On a point of privilege, Mr. Speaker; I would like to ask Your Honour to inform me in what way my question is out of order. I heard an hon. member of the N.D.P. a little while ago ask a question concerning statistical information, which Your Honour allowed. My question is asking whether the minister has received a report from Air Canada concerning the Caravelle transaction.


Mr. Speaker:: Two wrongs do not make a right. I refer the hon. gentleman to Bouri-
~~~.-I	

j	- 110
iiuo unu umcx uuuiuj.iuc.0,	ccxoiuu x x u.
If not there, he will find other authorities on the point.
(Translation):



DOMINION-PROVINCIAL RELATIONS SUGGESTED CONFERENCE TO REDRAFT CONSTITUTION

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Prime Minister. Could he tell the house when he intends to convene a federal-provincial conference or a meeting of the states general of the country, in order to consider the means of redrafting the constitution, as he stated himself at a press conference held after the last federal-provincial conference?
(Text):


Lester Bowles Pearson: Well, Mr. Speaker, I made no such announcement of course, and there will be a federal-provincial meeting in the autumn.



PARLIAMENT HILL


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Speaker, I am sorry to interrupt again, but on Friday last I asked the Secretary of State for External Affairs if he would ask his friends in the diplomatic corps to give up 
their parking space for the benefit of visitors and other persons during the changing of the guard. In reply he said the question had certain implications and he would leave it over until Monday. Has he anything further to report on this question?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Not at the moment, Mr. Speaker.



SHIPPING


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
George James McIlraith: Mr. Speaker, yesterday the hon. member for the Northwest Territories (Mr. Rhe-aume) asked me if the Department of Transport would provide the services of icebreakers to the Danish freighter the Helga Dan, trapped in the Resolute bay area. I have further information that I would like to add to the information I gave in answer to his question.
The agents of this ship were advised orally that they were planning to send the ship into Lancaster sound earlier than was the practice stncl thst ice conditions mirtht not permit passage. They were informed in writing that no icebreaker would be in that area before August 12.
I understand the Helga Dan encountered severe ice conditions in Lancaster sound and has since withdrawn to open water in Baffin bay to await improved conditions. The Canadian coastguard have no icebreakers within 1,000 miles of this position and they are fully occupied on their respective duties. This includes a considerable amount of escorting of commercial grain ships to and from Churchill, as ice conditions in the northern Hudson bay and Hudson strait still require this service this year.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, before the next order of business is called, I believe there is general agreement in the house that tomorrow we might begin our sitting at two o'clock, take an hour off from six to seven o'clock and continue from seven to eleven o'clock. If I am correct in interpreting the agreement I wonder if that could be so ordered.


Hon. Gordon Churchill (Winnipeg South Centre):: As of an hour and a half ago there was an inclination on our side to agree to such an extension of hours, but in view of

the remarks of the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State accusing, quite incorrectly, the opposition of obstruction-


An hon. Member:: Another double cross.


Gordon Minto Churchill: -and this additional interruption, I now serve notice on the house leader that there is no agreement to any such extension of hours for tomorrow.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I had assumed, sir, I was dealing with gentlemen.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Well, Mr. Speaker, everybody in the house recognizes the type of remark now made by this person who purports to be a gentleman. If there is to be confidential exchange of information by house leaders then it should remain that way, instead of this public accusation and the insinuation that there has been some difference of opinion, together with the interruption from the Minister of Veterans Affairs-double cross-a typical statement by that person.


Mr. Teillei:: Mr. Speaker-


Gordon Minto Churchill: I have the floor on a question of privilege. If the Prime Minister wishes the house to conduct itself in a co-operative manner, as we have shown, then I think he had better express to the house some regret for the statement he made this afternoon, and let him indicate to the house when he would like this portion of the session to be concluded and when we are coming back in September.
The opposition has been trying successfully to indicate its responsibility in the house, cooperating with the government. We have passed several measures and we have cooperated with the house leader on shortening certain debates and things of that nature. Now to be accused in this manner and have this insinuation made by the house leader, is carrying the thing a bit too far, and the time has come to make this protest, and I do so on this occasion.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, seeing my name has been brought into this discussion perhaps I may be permitted to say a word. The government has been criticized, and indeed attacked, during the question period because we had not taken certain action in respect of children's allowances and in respect of the immediate introduction and passage of pension legislation. In reply to those charges I said-and if I said it in tones that irritated hon. gentlemen opposite I am sorry-that it was due to the fact we had been delayed that we had not been able to do all the things we wanted to do in this portion of the session. That is 28902-5-182J
Inquiries of the Ministry what I said-delay and obstruction-and if that irritated the hon. member for Winnipeg South Centre I am sorry.
I agree with the hon. gentleman who just sat down that if there were undertakings made, those undertakings should be observed, and I hope they will be carried out on all sides of the house.


Roger-Joseph Teillet: On a point of privilege, Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Winnipeg South Centre has accused me of using the word "double cross" to him. I made no such statement, and I would ask him to pay closer attention.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Speaker, if the minister did not make the remark, I apologize to him. But somebody on that side did, and I suggest that he stand up and be recognized.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman asked when we might be able to complete our work, have a recess and come back. I hope that notwithstanding what has happened in the last few minutes, we will be able to complete this part of the session, unless there is legislation to implement the Norris report, before the end of this week. That depends, of course, on hon. members opposite. I hope we will be able to come back on September 30, if that is agreeable to hon. members opposite. If that is to be done perhaps, notwithstanding what has happened in the last few minutes, we could extend the hours tomorrow and perhaps even extend them a little on Friday.


Mr.  A. B. Pafierson@Fraser Valley: Mr. Speaker, in the discussions held last night we from this group indicated we would be prepared to go ahead with the extension of hours in order to facilitate the completion of business. I just want to say at this time that we are still prepared to stick with our word.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Thomas Miller Bell: That is a change from last year.


J.-H.-Théogène Ricard: We know why.


Mr. Patterson:: Mr. Speaker, some hon. members are having quite a time containing themselves. It might be a good thing if we had a five minute recess to cool off, so we could come back here and face this situation realistically. We feel the business of the house should be expedited, and therefore we are quite prepared and would be very happy to carry through with the extension of hours to make that possible.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, for the record may I say that following the discussions that were held last evening we took up the matter in

Excise Tax Act
our caucus this morning and indicated to the Secretary of State that we were agreeable to extending the hours tomorrow and Friday, so we would sit from 2 o'clock in the afternoon until 11 o'clock in the evening. I rise now only to say that even after what has just happened, if further negotiations on this point are indicated we are prepared to participate in such further negotiations.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Speaker, I think this situation should be cleared up, and cleared up very definitely. Yesterday the house leader suggested that we sit today until 7 o'clock. That is inconvenient to our party and I so indicated to him, I then made the suggestion- it is reported in Hansard on page 2834

of extending the hours on Thursday and perhaps on Friday. Then having made that suggestion and having said I would talk to my colleagues about it, we come back in the house today and get accusations about obstruction. This is no way to operate a parliament.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Gordon Minto Churchill: If the suggestion comes from the opposition and we are willing to co-operate, and then we are kicked all over the lot and accused of obstruction, what are we to think when trying to make agreements among parties? The type of thing that has occurred this morning indicates that it is becoming a bit impossible to co-operate with a government that is so unappreciative of what has been done.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Gordon Minto Churchill: We now have the usual howling down from the Grit side. This has been going on for years. On occasion the Secretary of State, the house leader, has expressed appreciation for our speeding up various portions of debate, and quite properly so. Then he changes his mind today and shouts other words about not co-operating, and things of that nature. This is the situation: The offer was made by myself, just as it was made two weeks ago with regard to the estimates of the Department of Trade and Commerce, and those estimates were carried through successfully.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. May I suggest to all hon. members that the Speaker is very pleased with the progress we have made in the last few days. I suggest that we turn the page, close the chapter and get on with the orders of the day.



EXCISE TAX ACT

[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Tuesday, July 30, consideration in committee of Bill No. C-90, to amend the Excise Tax Act-Mr. Gordon- Mr. Lamoureux in the chair.

On clause 9-Refund of tax.
Walter Lockhart Gordon: Mr. Chairman, when the committee rose last evening it was agreed, I believe, that its consideration of the bill had concluded, with the exception of clause 9. It was understood that before we resumed today, consideration would be given to the proposals of several hon. members and especially the suggestion of the hon. member for Pontiac-Temiscamingue for amending clause 9 where it refers to tenders.
Since last evening I have studied this matter in consultation with my colleagues and the officials of the department concerned, and especially with my colleague the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration who has an amendment to propose which I believe will meet with the approval of the committee. In drafting this amendment we have had very much in mind the various points raised by hon. members concerning the special features of the law in the province of Quebec. Perhaps, Mr. Chairman, I could now ask the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration if he would move the amendment which has been drafted.


Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert: Mr. Chairman, before that happens may I address a point to the government in regard to this question; it will possibly affect their thinking in regard to this particular point. The discussion last night was germane to those contracts which did not have a pecuniary penalty and where a building was actually being built for an owner. I would submit to the Minister of Finance- I think he has received representations in this regard-that in the commercial field and in the industrial field particularly buildings are often erected for purposes of very long term lease, where contracts have actually been signed to lease the building at a stated rent based upon the amortization of the cost of the building.
Clause 9 as proposed does not take into account any contract of this type. Certainly with regard to the province of Ontario I would suggest that a very important segment of the commercial and industrial construction field or realty field will be adversely affected. I think these people would be caught in the provision by that passage wherein it is said that property in the goods must pass. I say this because we know that under a lease property in the goods does not pass; the contractor retains ownership in the goods while the building is leased. I would put it to the minister that if it is still part of the philosophy of the budget to stimulate industry and maintain economic progress, this is one sector to which much closer attention should be paid and in regard to which appropriate modifications should be considered favourably by

the government. I should like to ask the minister to comment upon that point.


Walter Lockhart Gordon: I can assure the hon. member that this matter has been under careful consideration. It is a difficult one to apply because it all depends on these leasing arrangements how much of a building has been rerented or leased. We came to the conclusion in our consideration that with the staging of the application of the tax and with the extension of the period of exemption to the end of 1964, that was as far as we could go without opening the thing wider.


Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert: In other words, there will be no tax exemption whatsoever with respect to buildings erected for leasing purposes?


Walter Lockhart Gordon: That is correct.


Mr. Favreau:: Mr. Chairman, I should like to move an amendment to clause 9 of the bill which amends passages on page 11. This amendment, I am pleased to say does, in my opinion at least, reflect the suggestion made yesterday by the hon. member for Pontiac-Temiscamingue and other hon. members, and agreed to by myself and other hon. members on this side. The amendment will have the effect, if accepted, of including the substance of the provision already included in paragraph (b) of subsection 1 of clause 9. It will also provide for an exemption in cases where, under the law present or future of any province, an indication in an offer or tender of a delay or time within which it may be accepted has the effect, or would have the effect, of binding the offerer or the tenderer to maintain his offer or tender during the whole period so specified. I have circulated copies to the representatives of the various parties. I move an amendment as follows:
That Bill C-90, to amend the Excise Tax Act, be amended by striking out lines 9 to 17 and lines 41 to 49 on page 11 thereof and substituting therefor in each case the following:
(ii) after June 13, 1963, if the contract was entered into
(A)	in accordance with the terms of a tender in writing submitted by that person on or before that day, under which that person in the event of the acceptance of such tender undertook to enter into such a contract and in default of so doing to incur a penalty, whether by forfeiture of a security deposit or otherwise, or upon the acceptance of which that person became otherwise obligated under any law applicable thereto to enter into such a contract, or
(B)	by the acceptance of an offer in writing submitted by that person on or before that day, under which that person undertook expressly or by necessary implication to hold such offer open for acceptance for a specified period and thereby became obligated under any law applicable thereto to hold such offer open for acceptance accordingly,
Excise Tax Act


Paul Raymond Martineau: Mr. Chairman, I naturally appreciate the minister's presenting an amendment which substantially responds to the amendment I proposed last night, except that the amendment in its original form would have eliminated certain ambiguities. I am a little concerned as to the way in which the officials of the department will interpret the clauses. I should like to ask the minister with regard to subparagraph (B), which contains the words "undertook expressly"-which are plain enough-and "or by necessary implication", who will decide whether or not there was such a necessary implication to hold the offer open till the specified period? Will it be the officials of the department, and will the tenderer, the contractor, be under an obligation to submit his tender and supporting evidence to the officials in order that he may qualify for the exemption?


Guy Favreau: Mr. Chairman, if I might answer that I think two things must be remarked upon. First of all, in any legal text dealing with taxation, such as customs or excise, an officer of the department, under the direction of the minister, always has to an extent to interpret or to apply the text; as a matter of fact, by applying it he is also interpreting it. When he is in doubt about it, or the validity of his interpretation is placed in doubt by the taxpayer, there will then of necessity be a reference to the Department of Justice. The normal consequence is that if there is then no understanding it becomes a matter which only the courts can settle.
The question here is whether the text is satisfactory to the hon. member, who as we know is a good lawyer. Is the text sufficient in his opinion exactly to convey the legal consequences or the protection which he has in mind? I think it is. Whether it be this text or another text, very often taxpayers will not agree with departmental officers, and if a ruling from the Department of Justice is not acceptable, then the matter has to resolve itself into a legal case. We hope to eliminate that as far as possible, but some are unavoidable. I am sure the hon. member will agree with me that there is no room here to define "undertook expressly or by necessary implication", which in French would be, of course, "expressement ou tacitement". I submit that we should not go further than that.


Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert: May I thank the Minister of Finance for the answer he gave me, although from my point of view it was unsatisfactory. What I was trying to do was to bring this provision in conformity with

Excise Tax Act
a similar provision which applies in the province of Ontario. I should like to put this on the record to indicate that this wording, which is used by the province of Ontario, would cover the situation admirably:
Where a construction contractor has entered into a fixed price or lump sum construction contract before the 30th day of March, 1961-
-and here we would substitute "June 13, 1963"-
.-or where such a construction contract was tendered by such person beforeand I would interpose "June 13, 1963"-
-and was accepted without adjustment thereafter, the treasurer may authorize a rebate of the tax paid by the construction contractor on the tangible personal property that enters directly into and becomes part of the construction or alteration of any building or other structure on land covered by such a contract.
This, in my submission, would cover the case I had in mind.


Walter Lockhart Gordon: I am sure the construction industry would be delighted with the representations which the hon. gentleman has just made, but I am afraid they are unacceptable to the government.


Mr. Oito:: I think hon. members should be reminded of the implications of this amendment. We are being asked to expand the powers of the administrators by giving them the further duty of interpreting whether there is a penalty or whether there is an obligation. This is, of course, normally the duty of the judiciary. In the last analysis only the courts can decide whether or not a penalty can be enforced. If the only task left to the administration under the terms of the amendment was to interpret certain words, that could be one thing, but to give these servants of the public the responsibility of judging whether a penalty is enforceable is another. I thought I would bring this point to the attention of members of the committee before we vote on the amendment.


The Chairman:: Shall the amendment carry? Mr. Lambert: On division.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Lucien Lamoureux: Shall the clause as amended carry?


Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert: On division.
Clause 9 agreed to.


Lucien Lamoureux: Shall the bill carry?


Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert: On division.


Lucien Lamoureux: Shall I report the bill?


Walter Lockhart Gordon: Before you leave the chair, Mr. Chairman, may I thank you and all the members of the committee for their co-operation and assistance?
Bill reported.


Mr. Speaker:: When shall this bill be read the third time? Now?


Some hon. Members:: Next sitting of the house.



ECONOMIC COUNCIL OF CANADA


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Tuesday, July 30, consideration in committee of Bill No. C-72, to provide for the establishment of an economic council of Canada-Mr. Lamontagne-Mr. Lamoureux in the chair.
Clauses 2 to 8 inclusive agreed to.
On clause 9-Duties of council.
(Translation):
Paul Raymond Martineau: Mr. Chairman, yesterday, when we were discussing the first section of the bill now before us, i asxed me minister if he would be kind enough to indicate the plan he proposed to carry out to promote the expansion of our Canadian economy.
I notice that paragraph (a) of section 9, among others, refers to some plan. I quote paragraph (a):
(a) regularly to assess, on a systematic and comprehensive basis, the medium term and long term prospects of the economy, and to compare such prospects with the potentialities of growth of the economy:
Well, Mr. Chairman, the minister has not yet given us the various elements of that plan. Now, not only does this bill indicate that there is such a plan, but it clearly states that it will be sanctioned by legislation.
Therefore, I respectfully submit that it is the minister's duty to tell us what that plan is, so that we may know where we are going.


Maurice Lamontagne: Mr. Chairman, I do not think that it is up to me to say what that plan will be. As a matter of fact, it will be one of the duties of the council, as stated in paragraph (a):
to assess the medium and long term prospects,
-and then to appraise the potentialities of growth in our Canadian economy.
In short, it is simply a question of attempting in Canada an experiment made in several European countries, without perhaps going as far as in France, but rather following the

example set by countries like the Netherlands and others where experts, in co-operation with industry, with the private sector, assess the potentialities of expansion, considering their resources and also the exigencies of a full employment policy.
After studying these possibilities, the council must then evaluate what could be the rate of growth of the economy as a whole in order to reach that objective. Then, discussions must be held with the governments and the private sector of the economy to find out what their plans are, if, at the start, the rate of growth were to be 4, 5 or 6 per cent, according to the initial suggestion.
There is no question here of elaborating a plan without consulting any one and then imposing it by control or coercion; on the contrary, it is only a matter of indicating the objectives to the economy and to ensure that the private sector and the other governments know them in a general way and are doing their best to adapt to them freely.
(Text):


Robert Norman Thompson: I believe clause 9 brings us to one of the crucial parts of this bill. I think the government should be commended for being careful to bring in all aspects that will provide an opportunity for co-operation and consultation between the various aspects of the economy. I note the following, for example, in clause 9 (f):
to study and discuss with representatives of the industries concerned and with representatives of labour, farmers and other primary producers, and other occupational groups and organizations, what specific plans for production and investment in major industries in Canada will best contribute to a high and consistent rate of economic growth.
The same theme is continued in subclauses (g), (h) and (i). I believe this is good. I was much impressed with the report on economic planning published by the private planning association of Canada, which I think most of us have had in our hands in recent days. To support the thought I am going to present with regard to this clause, I read the following from page 85 of the report:
The government in our society is expected, quite rightly, to take the lead in both formulating and ranking national objectives. This may be hampered, however, if there is a widespread misunderstanding about the meaning of the objectives, and about the appropriate set of economic policy measures. The importance of price stability, the meaning of a full employment objective, the advantages of a counter-cyclical fiscal policy are the sorts of topics over which there is much public confusion. As in some European countries, it would be highly desirable to establish more effective communication and understanding between government, economic experts and economic interest groups about appropriate objectives and policies.
Economic Council of Canada
I note with interest, and I mentioned it today during the question period, that press reports indicate that Dr. John Deutsch of Queen's University is being proposed as the head of the economic council. If this is the type of man the government is thinking of for the council, it is good. I think the council can serve a really useful purpose in our economy because certainly there are many aspects of our economy that the economic council is going to be able to assist.
But in reading the subclauses in clause 9 which I have mentioned I think there is something missing. I should like to suggest to the President of the Privy Council that it might be well, just to make sure that these things come to pass as I believe we mutually agree they should, if an additional subclause were added. I would suggest something like this as subclause (k): "To conduct, as directed to do so by the minister, reviews of medium and long range programs of the government of Canada that are designed to aid or assist industry, labour and agriculture".
If this is not added to the responsibilities of the economic council, there is a possibility we will not give the council the full opportunity of function that I think it must have to bring about the co-operation and the spirit of seeking to solve problems together that we must have, not only from labour, not only from management but also from government. Therefore I make this suggestion to the minister trusting that he will consider it because this is the real heart and crux of what we are trying to get at here so far as the duties of the council are concerned.
(Translation):


Rémi Paul: Mr. Chairman, according to the remarks of the President of the Privy Council, in reply to a question of the hon. member for Pontiac-Temiscamingue, we-and I would like the minister to correct me if this was not the meaning of his remarks-the government has no plan for economic expansion and the whole thing will be left to the economic council, the establishment of which is provided for under this bill.
Am I right in that conclusion? As I understood the minister's remarks, the government has no economic expansion plan at present and it must rely on the research, recommendations and suggestions of the council. Is that what he meant?


Maurice Lamontagne: Mr. Chairman, I never said that this government had no economic expansion plan.


Rémi Paul: But did not the minister reply to the hon. member for Pontiac-Temiscamingue

Economic Council of Canada that it was not the government's responsibility to prepare plans but that it would rather be a duty of the council created under this bill?


Maurice Lamontagne: Mr. Chairman, I believe I said that I had no responsibility for preparing a draft plan.
In my opinion, and experience has shown this to be true in several countries, those indicative plans must be developed in several stages. And, normally during the first stage experts are called upon to prepare draft plans in order to establish the broad objectives, and then those who have to make decisions within the economic structures, either in the private or government sector, can take their own responsibilities.


Rémi Paul: Mr. Chairman, may I put a supplementary question? Does the minister intend, on behalf of the government, to submit to the committee some plans of action considered by the government, such as the profits, the advantages, and the development which could be brought about by the implementation of those plans?


Maurice Lamontagne: We shall certainly have
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Chairman.
(Text):


Douglas Mason Fisher: Mr. Chairman, I just want to ask a couple of questions. In going through the duties listed here I notice that there seems to be, by their very absence, a studious effort to avoid using the word "resources" or "resource use" or "resource uses". I imagine I know who drafted the bill and I imagine that he has a certain interest in natural resources. I wondered why there was this apparently deliberate ignoring in this clause on duties of the fact that almost all of our major industries in this country, such as mining, pulp and paper and so on, are based upon resource use.
There may be a simple explanation for this. It may be because we have a new interprovincial-federal resource secretariat which may be going to get involved in cost benefit analyses in this field, and so to specify amongst the duties of the economic council anything regarding resources would perhaps be impinging on their field. Perhaps it was felt that reference to resource use might impinge upon the traditional rights of the provinces. I should like some explanation from the minister about that matter because it does seem to me it is going to be bootless to have an economic council that is genuinely coming to grips with economic plans for this country if it ignores the fact that almost all our industry is related pretty directly to natural

resources. That is the first group of questions I wanted to ask the minister.
The second relates to what has been mentioned about the persons who are going to be carrying on these duties.
It is quite apparent, Mr. Chairman, when one runs through the duties of this board that the group of 20 people who will be on the council will not have time to even have more than a smattering of interest or a modicum of understanding of many of these problems if there are genuine studies being conducted. About all the three permanent members of the council and whatever secretariat it has can do is just inform them of what is taking place. I just wanted to ask the minister whether consideration had been given to making more specific the greater responsibility of the three permanent members in regard to the duties and somewhat less onerous set of responsibilities for what you might call the members at large.
I would certainly feel, for example, that if we had someone like Dr. Deutsch as head of the economic council-I myself do not believe he would be the best appointment because, as I believe the minister knows, he is
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pose someone from a company in Winnipeg was one of the 25 members, then I think the public needs to understand very clearly that the businessman from Winnipeg who might be picked would have much less in the way of responsibility, much less in the way of understanding of what the economic council is involved in than the three permanent members. In other words, I am arguing that we need to have an understanding that there is a real distinction in responsibility and in what we can expect from the three permanent members and the others. I wanted to know from the minister if he could give any indication as to whether or not he feels this way.


Maurice Lamontagne: The hon. member has raised two different questions. The first one was related to the problem of resources. I think that the resource industries would certainly be covered by the wording which is used there. We have certainly not excluded this group of industries in any deliberate way. When we refer to the medium term and long term prospects of the economy and compare such prospects with the potentialities for growth of the economy, then I feel those expressions are certainly all-embracing.
If we consider the other paragraphs, I think we will find the same general expression being used, so we cannot say that there is any exclusion from the scope of studies and recommendations which is envisaged.


Douglas Mason Fisher: May I ask the minister a specific question on that point? A great deal of the United States description of this area has hinged upon the Paley report and studies prepared by Stamford university in respect of natural resources, but there is a new study put out which is very complex and available right now. I have not seen copies of it, but it refers to resource prospects of the United States and how they dovetail in with economic planning. It seems, in a way, almost unexplainable how anyone could sit down and set out the duties of a council which the government considers very important, and completely miss this resource factor. I wondered whether it was on account of any sensitivities.
I am taking a long time to get to my question. Do I take it from what the minister has said there was no deliberate intention of ignoring resources?


Maurice Lamontagne: There certainly was no deliberate intention of ignoring them. As the hon. member can see, there is no exclusion of them. When the term "economy" is being used, surely one cannot be more comprehensive. I would certainly expect there would be no exclusion. If we are to envisage the prospects of the Canadian economy, I cannot see how we could arrive at the right appraisal of our prospects if we exclude the resource industries from this analysis.


Douglas Mason Fisher: May I ask the minister on this point if he will look at paragraph (j) which refers to seeking full and regular consultation with appropriate agencies of the governments of the several provinces? Is that broad enough to include this new resource secretariat?


Maurice Lamontagne: I think this would be quite possible. I would hope that the discussions which are taking place in this special committee would be communicated on a regular basis to the economic council. What we envisage more specifically in paragraph (j) is constant liaison with the similar agencies existing at the provincial level. As the hon. member knows, most of the provinces now have similar economic councils which are responsible for more or less the same duties. We would certainly hope that there would be constant co-operation and collaboration, an exchange of information, in a way that we consider would be helpful.
(Translation):


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Chairman, the President of the Privy Council will agree with me, as he pointed out a while ago, that the co-operation of all organizations in the nation is required so that the work of the economic council can be successful. It needs the cooperation of municipalities and provinces; on that matter, I should like to ask the
Economic Council of Canada minister whether he took the opportunity of the federal-provincial conference held in Ottawa to give a copy of this bill to the premiers and ask their opinion about it, that is whether they are ready to co-operate with that economic council so that it can be successful.
The minister knows himself that the provinces are touchy on that point. In fact, especially these last few weeks, voices have been heard in Quebec and in some other provinces to the effect that their autonomy was in jeopardy, that this was a new encroachment of the federal government on a provincial jurisdiction. Well, I think this bill is really an encroachment on provincial jurisdiction in certain fields, and that is why I am asking whether the premiers did promise to the minister that they would fully cooperate, because it would be useless for the minister to set up that economic council if the provinces are not ready to co-operate. I should also like to know whether the minister intends to consult with the provinces, if he has not yet done so, and even to ask the provinces whether they would like to delegate representatives to that council in order to provide for a full, complete and effective co-operation from everyone.


Maurice Lamontagne: Mr. Chairman, as the hon. member knows, the establishment of the economic council was not on the agenda of the last federal-provincial conference, so that this federal agency was not discussed.
However, over the week end, I had the opportunity of discussing the matter informally with certain representatives of a few provinces, and especially of the province of Quebec, and I am convinced that we can depend on the full co-operation of those provinces, and especially of the province of Quebec.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Chairman, following the statement he has just made, I should like to ask the minister a supplementary question.
I know that the discussions were of a semiofficial nature, since the purpose of the federal-provincial conference was not to examine the setting up of the said economic council. However, could the minister inform the house about the kind of co-operation he hopes to receive from the provincial authorities, including those of the province of Quebec, since he has told us that the premier of Quebec

Economic Council of Canada had given him to understand that he would co-operate with the federal government. We would appreciate it if the minister were to give us more details about that.


Maurice Lamontagne: Mr. Chairman, as I
explained a while ago, that co-operation will be given both within the terms of reference of the economic council and within the terms of reference of the provincial agencies of a similar nature.
Furthermore, the hon. member is certainly aware of the fact that there now exists in the province of Quebec, as in several others, an economic guidance council the responsibilities of which are about the same as those of this federal economic council.
On the other hand, we know that the provinces do not have the necessary information to undertake successfully long term planning of this kind.
It could even be said-and this, to my mind, is obvious-that we do not have, at the national level, all the information required to


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Chairman, one last question before passing on to something else.
Is it not the opinion of the minister that it would be advantageous if each premier were to appoint a liaison officer who would be a member of the staff of the economic council? This would allow for better coordination, not to mention the fact that an over-all plan could thus be set up which would protect provincial autonomy and the rights of all the parties concerned.


Maurice Lamontagne: Mr. Chairman, I do not think that this suggestion can be entertained either by the provinces or by the federal government.
In my opinion, we should keep, as far as possible, the various jurisdictions separate in our country, if we want to establish subsequently a co-operative federalism. Now, it should be noted that in the bill now under

consideration, one of the main duties of the economic council will consist in making recommendations to the federal government in order to implement the policies which will come under the latter's jurisdiction. It would not be advisable that representatives from provincial governments make recommendations to the federal government with regard to federal policies.
I do not believe either that the provinces would agree to the suggestion to appoint officials within a federal body whose duties would be to submit recommendations with respect to the implementation of federal policies.
Besides, I do not think that this would be necessary. I feel that through the information we will exchange from now on, this type of co-operation will be enough to enable not only provincial organizations, but also the economic council of Canada, to carry out their respective duties.
(Text):


Robert Norman Thompson: I would like to come back for a moment to the point raised by the hon. member for Port Arthur, because the subject of our resources is very basic to the over-all planning of the economy of the country. In the light of the fact that the minister has said there is no exclusion of resources, I wonder whether he would not care to indicate that resources could be included in paragraph (h) which reads:
To explore and evaluate particular projects of major significance for the expansion of industrial and other economic activities.
We must have the assurance that our natural resources, so far as our general economy is concerned, are included here.


Maurice Lamontagne: I do not think this would really improve the bill because if we started to specify a special group of industries then, in order to ensure there would be no exclusion, we would probably have to provide a long list of industries, including manufacturing and service industries.


Robert Norman Thompson: I did not mean to include them. I just wanted a statement from the minister that resources were included in the over-all definition.


Maurice Lamontagne: I thought I had made myself quite clear, in my answer to a previous question, that they were included. I would like to come back to the suggestion made by the hon. member a moment ago. So far as I am concerned I would be quite satisfied to accept his suggestion, and I understand

xny colleague, the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration, is prepared to move an amendment which will satisfy him.
((Translation):


Paul Raymond Martineau: Mr. Chairman, before
the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration moves his amendment, it might be desirable to complete the discussion on general matters. Therefore, I have a few questions I wish to ask the minister and which are related to this clause.
The minister said a moment ago that the council would only make recommendations which come under federal jurisdiction. I suppose that they will be recommendations on *economic matters.
In view of his previous statement, does he [DOT]think that, under our type of federalism, it is possible, through such an organization or any similar one, to develop in Canada a planning system?
Then he referred to the plan which exists in some European countries. The other day he seemed to think that the setting up of this council was the beginning for Canada of a planning system such as we find in France. Today, he says that it will not be quite the same as in France but that the plan may be similar to what is done in France and in some other countries.
Well, I ask him if the council will assume the same responsibilities as the planning board in France and, if so, in what way can it do so because, before it can operate like the French planning board, should there not be a plan? In spite of the many questions I have asked him, I have not had a reply from him about the way he sees that plan.
He said a moment ago that it is important that objectives be indicated. But he did not say who would establish those objectives and how they would be attained. I would appreciate it if the minister gave us some details on those points.


Maurice Lamontagne: Mr. Chairman, in my opinion, this could start a long discussion. The hon. member-


Paul Raymond Martineau: Well, Mr. Chairman-


Maurice Lamontagne: No, no-


Paul Raymond Martineau: Mr. Chairman, the minister refers to a long discussion. We are discussing here the most important part of the whole bill now under study. If the minister refuses a discussion on the only important section of the bill, when shall we have an opportunity to know his opinion on the matter?
Economic Council of Canada


Maurice Lamontagne: I think that the hon. member, notwithstanding what happened a while ago, must be patient. I am of the opinion that he will be satisfied with a shorter discussion, because we could discuss this legislation all night.
To revert to the question raised, I believe that in a certain way the economic council will play the part of the Commissariat au Plan in France.
If my hon. friend has studied well the duties of the Commissariat au Plan, no doubt he will realize that it is, as a matter of fact, that agency which worked out the first outline of the French plan. I do not mean that we shall go as far as that right at the beginning. Besides, the hon. member knows also that the whole planning experience in France started right after the war, when the country was disorganized economically and did not have the research and statistical services that we have at our disposal in Canada. Consequently, in my opinion, we do not need the complex administrative machinery which was developed in France by way of commissions for renovation, equipment, etc. to undertake our own planning.
My hon. friend claims also that it is not easy in a federal system to enter the planning field. I agree with him entirely. I am of the opinion that it would be absolutely impossible, as I said in my first speech during the debate on second reading of the bill, to undertake imperative planning, that is planning which involves control and coercion. I do not think however that the kind of indicative planning we have in mind is inconsistent with our federal system.
Besides, even on the plane of concrete achievements, once the general objectives have been determined, and the time has come to set specific policies and to see to it that the various governments take more or less a consistent line, then-and the Prime Minister has already implied as much-we shall think of organizing new structures within our federal frame. These structures might include a federal-provincial secretariat, as well as a yearly federal-provincial conference, which will be instrumental in solving not only taxation problems, but also unemployment, development, growth and economic forecasting problems.
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Paul Raymond Martineau: Mr. Chairman, I have a supplementary question for the minister. Will those aims the minister was talking about, be set by the government, and recommended to the council by the government, or, conversely, will it be the council's role to set those objectives and to recommend them to the government?


Maurice Lamontagne: Mr. Chairman, I do not imagine the council would be asked to set the objectives, although it will be part of its duties under the bill to make recommendations to the government, in order that objectives can be indicated.


J.-H.-Théogène Ricard: Mr. Chairman, since I am one of those who spent almost 25 years in industry, I cannot help being interested in the bill.
I would be one of the first to hope that this legislation will be as successful as the minister expects. However, this leads me to ask him a few questions and I would like to deal immediately with section 9(d) which reads as follows:
to study means of increasing Canadian participation in the ownership-
Could the minister tell us whether the bill was amended since the Minister of Finance decided to withdraw his 30 per cent tax on the purchase of Canadian securities by foreigners or whether this paragraph is the same as in the original bill and whether the minister expects that the decision taken by his colleague will somewhat alter his expectations in this respect.
I should also like to ask the minister how long after being passed, this legislation will come into effect?
Also, how many jobs does he think this legislation will create in Canada, how many new industries can we expect to have as a result of this measure now before us?
Those are the questions I am asking now; there are others I might ask once those have been answered.


Maurice Lamontagne: Mr. Chairman, had the hon. member read the bill that has been tabled before the budget, I think he would have noticed that there has been no change since that time.
As to the second question of the hon. member, asking me how long it will take to establish the council, I should like to know it myself. The hon. member will certainly have noted that a specific clause of the legis-


lation compels the government to consult with the organizations concerned. That, I think, is a very beneficial procedure which will ensure greater co-operation between those organizations, but it will certainly be some time before it is put into force. I trust that I shall be able to recommend to my colleagues appointments to this council at the earliest possible date, and I can assure the house that we shall be diligent in this respect.
As to the hon. member's last question, I do not think I can answer it at this time. In my opinion, such organization has been needed for a long time in our economy. This body will contribute to a greater knowledge of our economic problems in the public and private sectors. I am convinced that, later on, we shall be able to find together-whether at the provincial, federal or private levels-more efficient ways of settling those problems.


Mr. Richard:: Mr. Chairman, I should like to go back to the first question I asked, because the hon. minister only partly answered it.
If it is true that the wording of the bill is the same as before the withdrawal, by the Minister of Finance, of the tax on the sale of Canadian securities to foreigners, it is also true that the minister cannot expect the same results as had been anticipated at that time. Therefore, I should like him to answer the first part of my question, that is to say whether the decision of the Minister of Finance (Mr. Gordon) will affect adversely the provision in subparagraph (d).


Maurice Lamontagne: When the Minister of Finance decided to withdraw his proposal with regard to the imposition of the 30 per cent tax, he stated, if I am not mistaken, that the present government of Canada wished to continue pursuing the objective as intended by that particular legislation.
In view of the continued existence of that problem, the purpose of the government remains the same and, to my mind, that particular section might be useful, because I am convinced that there are several ways to attain the proposed objective and solve a problem which everybody knows to exist.


Paul Raymond Martineau: I want to ask a supplementary question, Mr. Chairman. Does the minister agree that in view of what he has just said about the imposition of the new tax by President Kennedy concerning interest equalization, that is one way for the government to attain its objective?


Maurice Lamontagne: Mr. Chairman, I do not think it is my responsibility to answer that question. Besides, I do not see what that question has to do with the bill now before us.


Paul Raymond Martineau: Mr. Chairman, there is a quite close connection because the minister stated that one of the objectives of the government was to regain control over the Canadian economy and that the Minister of Finance had proposed a tax which would help to attain that objective. So, I ask him, whether the action taken by President Kennedy which will certainly result in curtailing the investments in this country, may be considered as a proper way to attain the objective set up by the government and by the minister who is its spokesman at this time?


Maurice Lamontagne: I do not quite understand the hon. member's question. Does he suggest that the Canadian government should adopt the action recommended to the U.S. congress by President Kennedy?


Paul Raymond Martineau: No, I am suggesting exactly the contrary. It is not our business to adopt such a measure, but I should like to know whether the minister considers that the tax imposed by President Kennedy will give Canadians more control over their economy by curtailing the investments in our country by American citizens?


Maurice Lamontagne: I think the tax imposed by President Kennedy could have, as the Minister of Finance stated in this house, quite bad effects in Canada, particularly on a short term basis.
It is also for that reason that there were negotiations between the two countries in order to get a partial exemption for our country. It is also for that purpose that the Minister of Finance will go to Washington over the week end to negotiate a particular arrangement as far as we are concerned.
Again, Mr. Chairman, if we follow up such a discussion, we will be deviating from the subject matter now before us.


Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Chairman, further to the remarks of the hon. minister, we saw in today's papers a report about an American commission set up to examine the effects of international payment balance in the field of American investment in this country. This commission stated that every Canadian dollar invested in Canada returned to the United
Economic Council of Canada States within ten years and tripled within 20 years. That was the conclusion reached by a commission made up of orthodox professors of American universities. Like the hon. minister those economists declared that American investments in Canada were profitable to the Americans and consequently advised President Kennedy to withdraw this tax.
Now, to revert to the bill before us, I see that under clause 9, the object of the legislation is to establish an economic council. Now, the economic objective-which I cannot find in this clause-let us not forget it, Mr. Chairman, is to give each and every citizen of this country a vital minimum to enable him to lead a decent life in accordance with the wealth of the country.


An hon. Member:: Print money.


Gilles Grégoire: I heard somebody who said to print money. I must say that I invited him to come to my office to admire a picture on the wall. This is a picture of a foot. Maybe I could invite him again to come and admire that picture in my office.
I see nothing which will allow this economic council of Canada-


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Chairman, I rise on a question of privilege. I have always been polite and I have never cast aspersions on the person of the hon. member when I asked him a question. Therefore I should ask the minister-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: I am sorry, Mr. Chairman, if I have insulted the house in calling this member a minister who, anyway, will not sit here after the next election. Moreover, he does not reside in his riding and I am sure that the people of his riding are smart enough to realize it so as not to elect him again at the next election.
I shall ask the hon. member to show some intelligence and to answer questions in a polite way because we are always polite with him. Furthermore the hon. member for Lapointe (Mr. Gregoire) has no right to give a lecture; he should be the one to receive one.


Gilles Grégoire: I was not talking to the hon. member for Joliette-L'Assomption-Montcalm but to another member on the other side of the house. Besides, what I said could not apply at all to the member for Joliette-L'Assomption-Montcalm because, if I remember correctly the remark I made the other day, I spoke then about two feet whereas today I mentioned only one foot.

Economic Council of Canada
(Text):


The Deputy Chairman:: Order. The services of a referee are indicated. I wonder whether the hon. member for Lapointe would get back to clause 9.
(Translation):


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: I wish to point out that I have always been polite with hon. members and if the hon. member does not withdraw his expression he will deeply regret it.


Gilles Grégoire: There is no question of privilege. And if you will let us, we will continue discussing serious matters.
Mr. Chairman, as I was saying, the functions of an economic guidance system must follow in a parallel direction the functions of an economic system which are to fill the basic needs of each and every citizen according to the wealth of the country. All those clauses are related to the functions of the two economic guidance systems but I have yet to find one that will really enable the country not only to encourage production but also to give every citizen means to buy that nrnductinn T see. for instance:
To study means of increasing Canadian participation in the ownership, control and management of industries in Canada.
But nothing is suggested to enable people to take control of business in our country.
Clause 9 provides that the council will have to submit suggestions to increase productivity, or production. But today, Mr. Chairman, I am convinced that we are not facing production problems. This problem has been settled since the beginning of automation. The evidence is that automation produces so fast that men are unemployed. The minister is well aware that it is true that if a man is displaced as a result of automation, he cannot be employed elsewhere. In fact, his services are no longer required because automation produces too much already.
The duties of a council for economic guidance consist solely in assessing means of producing more, while today production is piling up in warehouses and in factories. I wonder why the minister, who is supposedly an economist, instead of considering the duties of an economic council in the light of production, does not consider the monetary system of the country, since that is part of the economic system? Why is this not mentioned in this clause concerning the duties of the council? Why is no mention made of a monetary reform which will enable our
[Mr, Gregoire,1

population to consume production? Why this-, attempt to increase production? The President of the Privy Council is well aware that during the war it has been possible to develop our production enough to be able to subsist besides helping European countries to subsist and provide arms to many countries.
But our economists are not smart enough to find the ways and means to maintain the same production level for our own citizens, even though we were able to cater to the needs of foreign countries during the war. My contention is that as long as the economic council is not prepared to accept the only possible solution to our economic ills, it will improve nothing. If the Liberal party continues to get entangled in study groups and planning councils, I say that within two years time, it still will not have corrected the unemployment situation. Mr. Chairman, the proposed measure will not overcome unemployment, because it does not tackle the problem from the right angle.
We are not faced with lack of wealth or insufficient production for this country is rich. What we have to solve is a problem of distribution. That is the problem. Does not clause 9 provide for a reform of our monetary system in such a way that when the economic council after suggesting methods of increasing both quantitative and qualitative production, it may suggest methods of distributing such production?
I would like to see not only provision for an increased production, but also for an increased distribution of production.
This is as simple as that, Mr. Chairman. I do not see why the President of the Privy Council did not include that in the duties of his economic council.
The other day, I asked him if he would not consider monetary reform to enable production to reach the consumers. But he replied that the committee would examine my suggestion when it would reach the duties of the economic council. But we found nothing to corroborate the remarks of the President of the Privy Council. I would therefore ask him if in addition to giving incentives to production and automation, he would encourage the Bank of Canada to put at the service of the people the necessary credit to insure the purchase of the production.
That was the question I wanted to ask him after such a long preamble. Why could we not suggest that the Bank of Canada create the necessary credit to ensure the pur-

chase of all that production which would be increased through the efforts of the economic council.
(Text):


Mr. Carter:: I wish to ask one or two questions based on subclauses (i) and (j) of clause 9. These two subclauses set forth the duties of the council to encourage the maximum degree of consultation and co-operation between labour and management and between the appropriate agencies of the various levels of government.
We have already been told that this parliament does not have the authority to draw up a super plan and put it into effect. It is obvious that this would be the case, because our natural resources are under provincial control. It is also true that a large section of public capital is similarly controlled by the provincial governments. For this reason I consider that these two subclauses are in reality the essence of the bill now before us. If this economic council is to succeed it must develop the proper kind of co-operation between the various bodies concerned. I think it would have to go even further than that and inspire those various agencies with a sense of purpose which will get them thinking nationally and help them to rise above individual differences and conflicts of interest-in other words, to put the over-all good of the nation first. Unless this is done, the members of this board could easily become little more than lobbyists for their own particular interests. This duty of developing good will and co-operation and inspiring with a sense of purpose is the meat of this bill.
A great deal has already been done in this field in the last three years by the productivity council; and what concerns me is this, that nowhere in this clause do I see any provision for continuing the work which has been done by that council. The council was successful in setting up tripartite councils in almost every province with active participation by provincial governments. They have carried on a number of seminars in which they have brought together the top people in labour and management and have got them to think nationally instead of in terms of individual interest. In addition, they have changed, to some extent, the old concept of class conflict into one of co-operation for the national good. All this has been achieved, but we are told in another clause of this measure that when this bill becomes law the productivity council will disappear-it is to be absorbed by this economic council. However, I do not see what provision is being made to continue the work of which I have been speaking.


Maurice Lamontagne: Clause 11.
Economic Council of Canada


Chesley William Carter: Yes; but that is what disturbs me. I did not want to raise this until we came to clause 11 but since the minister has mentioned it I would point out that in that clause it is provided that these programs shall be carried out by the council only until such programs can be continued by other government departments or agencies. That means to me that somewhere along the line they are going to be turned over to civil servants. I do not think that a program of that kind can be handled in that manner. I think it is absolutely imperative that we preserve the solid achievements of the productivity council and that is why I should like to ask the minister what provision is being made to see that this is done.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Chairman, I rise for a few minutes just to support the remarks made by the hon. member for Port Arthur and the hon. member for Red Deer with respect to the omission of any particular reference in clause 9 to natural resources. Personally I feel that the development of our natural resources throughout the country generally, whether through public ownership, private ownership, a combination of both or in some cases through co-operative ownership, offers one of the greatest opportunities to younger people who are not interested in going into industry and other vocations.
You will pardon me for referring to my own district but I am well acquainted with it and I should just like to mention a few things before the minister introduces his amendment. We have in our district in one block 10,000 acres of land that require only draining. There is another block with 500 million feet of timber that can be utilized in the future as a result of co-operation between government and industry and so on. We all know of the tremendous water development that is possible there but I will not speak of that now because we are dealing with it in other ways in the house.
There are half a dozen beautiful hot springs in my riding, one of which was developed to a greater extent recently. These are resources which have been overlooked. There are a half dozen beautiful hot springs in my constituency, three of which are not developed and one only partially developed. One man has developed one of these hot springs this year and there are over 500 tourists per day bathing there, some from Alberta because they like to come to British Columbia to get a washing out, and others from the United States, and other parts.
There is a wonderful opportunity for the development of parks, which are directly related to happiness. The development of these hot springs can be made very fruitful
2874	HOUSE OF
Economic Council of Canada as far as the persons using them are concerned, and can be operated at a profit either by government or under private ownership. Then there is a great wealth of coal in various parts of Canada which can be utilized for power in the future.
I just mention some of the tremendous resources which lie undeveloped even in my own constituency, and this type of opportunity is multiplied a thousand times throughout Canada. I appeal to the government to give serious consideration to the question of getting the facts with respect to natural resources. I presume that the first thing is for the government to get the facts, to get the information on resources and the opportunities for manufacturing in industry and so on both large and small. I presume there will be some consultation between the council, provincial government representatives and private industry. I also presume that as a result of that there will be recommendations made to this government arising from the activity of this council and also recommendations made to provincial governments and legislatures.
I make all allowances for the difficulties invoTv cd. Tins is an experiment. I linour txiat>
the minister will have to explore techniques and things of that sort and that the legislation will be changed as a result of experience. I make all allowances for that. But if the legislation is going to be successful I do urge that the greatest possible information be given to the people of Canada generally and the people of any particular district with respect to the development of natural resources or the development of industry. The success of the legislation will depend on a great deal of co-operation not only between management, labour and farmers but between many other groups and communities and between many people in various communities and the council. I know from personal experience that all these people need is some leadership and to be given a purpose in life. One of the biggest difficulties we face today is that we have multitudes with no purpose in life because of our system, no pride in our country and who do not know where the hell they are going. I hope that this type of legislation will do something to focus attention on things worth while to the advantage of all of us.


Guy Favreau: Mr. Chairman, I am sure we will all agree that the speech of the hon. member for Kootenay West on hot springs was most refreshing, but I think it is just as refreshing to note how right the President of the Privy Council was when he insisted that in clause 9 the references to the economy,
[Mr. Herridge.l

and especially in subclause (a) to the assessment on a systematic and comprehensive basis of the medium term and long term prospects of the economy and of the potentialities of growth of the economy, necessarily include and refer to resources. Of course the hon. member for Kootenay West and other hon. members are right in insisting that resources should be covered by the legislation, but I agree with the President of the Privy Council that if within the general phrases there was specific reference to natural resources, that might be interpreted or deemed by some to exclude other factors which are equally essential. I think we can rely on the President of the Privy Council when he asserts and confirms that resources are fully covered and taken into account.
When the hon. member for Red Deer spoke, he referred to the advisability of completing or making more precise the powers of the council by allowing the council to direct reviews of medium and long term programs. In this respect I move:
That clause 9 of Bill C-72 be amended by striking out the word "and" at the end of paragraph (i), by adding the word "and" at the end of paragraph (3), by adding thereto the following paragraph:
(k) to conduct, if directed to uu so by the minister reviews of medium term or long term programs of the government of Canada that are designed to aid or assist industry, labour or agriculture.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the amendment carry?


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the clause as amended carry?


Michael Starr: Mr. Chairman, I have a few remarks to make on this clause with relation to the national productivity council which will be wiped out of existence when the bill is passed. I was very intrigued by the remarks of the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Veterans Affairs in which he commended the worthwhile efforts of the members of the national productivity council in their efforts to improve labour-management relations in this country. At this time, Mr. Chairman, I should like to pay tribute-


John Whitney Pickersgill: I wonder if the hon. gentleman would allow me to interrupt? I think the hon. gentleman's speech is related to clause 11. Could we pass clause 9 and get to clause 11 so that it would be relevant?


Michael Starr: I have no objection, but this matter was raised by the hon. member and I thought I should say a few words. I intended to speak about it on clause 22.


Maurice Lamontagne: Clause 9 does not deal at all with the national productivity council.

Economic Council of Canada
The functions of that council have been in- services would prove invaluable. They cer-cluded in clause 11. Perhaps the hon. mem- tainly could contribute a great deal to this ber's remarks would be appropriate at that economic council as well as to the economy time.	of this country.


Michael Starr: Well, the minister should have been as zealous in his efforts to bring about order in debate when the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Veterans Affairs was speaking.


Maurice Lamontagne: I said so then.


Michael Starr: As I said earlier, I had no intention of making my few remarks on the national productivity council until clause 22 was called, since that clause wipes out the productivity council. However, the matter has been raised and I thought I would inject my few words at this point and save time when clause 22 was before us.
I want to pay tribute to Mr. De Young, who was the chairman of the productivity council, as well as the members who have worked so hard in breaking new ground in this country to bring about greater production in Canada so that our goods would be competitive in world markets. I should like to pay tribute particularly to their efforts in bringing about a greater degree of co-operation between labour and management. They must, of course, be given credit for bringing about this co-operation. This has been accomplished by various means such as seminars that have been held in the industrial centres which have afforded labour and management an opportunity to discuss their mutual problems. The representatives of labour and management have also been given the opportunity of living together during their journeys through European countries to study the type of labour-management co-operation that exists in those countries. I feel this exchange of ideas between the representatives of labour and management has taught both of these important groups in our country how to live with one another.
This is the crux of a great many of the problems that face this country. So long as labour and management can understand one another, so long as they can exchange their ideas, then many of the problems faced by the government and the economy of this country will be alleviated. I say that great strides, have been made in this area through the efforts of the national productivity council. I suggest to the minister that when he is considering appointments to this national economic council, consideration should be given to the selection of some of these people who have served so well on the national productivity council, because of their background of experience in this field. I believe their


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Several members have expressed the fear that under this legislation the minister might go too fast in moving toward the establishment of a planned economy. I suggest that anyone who will read this bill carefully, particularly clause 9, will have his fears allayed. I do not believe there is any danger under this legislation of either going very fast or getting very close to a planned economy, not even indicative planning. If one reads through the clauses one sees in each case such phrases as, to recommend; to consider; to study means; to study economic growth; to explore and evaluate; to encourage maximum consultation; to seek regular consultation, and so on.
The powers given to this board are extremely limited. When the minister talks about economic planning in France and makes a comparison with this legislation, I think one has to stretch his imagination rather far to think there will be anything resembling the planning operation in France. However, it is a beginning, and as a beginning it ought to be encouraged. The value of this beginning will largely depend on the economic council itself and the personnel of that council.
I wanted to hear the minister answer the question which was asked by my colleague, the hon. member for Port Arthur. He wanted the minister to outline the distinction in functions between the chairman and the two full time directors on the one hand, and the number of members of the council who, of course, will be merely attending the meetings of council on a per diem basis. This group, perhaps up to 25 in number, will have what functions? How will the chairman and the two directors function? What will be their duties and what will be the duties of the other members? Are they to be largely advisory? Will they meet three or four times a year? It is suggested here that there will be representatives from appropriate organizations. Will they be nominated by those organizations? Will the minister ask each organization for a slate of candidates? Will the manufacturers' association, the Canadian Labour Congress, the farmers' union or co-operative, be asked to submit a slate of names from which the minister may choose? Will the government simply select a farmer and say he represents agriculture, although agriculture may have had no voice in suggesting his name? Will some ex-unionist or defeated candidate who once had trade union connections, be chosen as a representative of labour or will labour be able to nominate a man who
2876	HOUSE OF
Economic Council of Canada will be able to speak for labour and take the views of the council back to labour?
I am convinced that the success or failure of this economic council will depend upon the participation of the groups that are represented on the council. Unless you get the cooperation of industry, labour, agriculture and all the various segments of the economy, then the council is going to be little more than a statistics gathering organization putting together plans that will gather dust on somebody's desk. If the members of this council are representatives of organizations and are able to go back and secure the co-operation of these organizations, this could be a very effective council. I should like, therefore, to ask the minister, first, what is the distinction between the full time members and the part time members? Will the members who are selected from organizations be selected on the basis of the organizations having an opportunity to name a slate? Will all these persons concerned be expected to report back and secure the co-operation of the organizations they are alleged to represent?


Mr. Baldwin:: I am not raising any point of order, Mr. Chairman, but I think this probably comes well within this clause of the bill. I want to refer to the matter raised by the hon. member for Port Arthur as to the question of the inclusion of natural resources. Anyone looking at clause 9 can see that there has been a lot of care and attention given to it. It has been honed and sharpened, and its words carefully chosen; but as the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration will realize, there is a very important motto which we have to the effect that the inclusion of one is the exclusion of the other, and specifically mentioned from clause (a) to clause (k) are a number of specific definite duties without having reference to the question of natural resources. This rules out the fact that natural resources can be considered.
I doubt very much whether this statute will ever be the subject of judicial determination, but it is our duty to consider that the words of the statute give effect to the announced intention. If it is the announced intention of the government, in this question of planning, to deal with natural resources, then it simply has not done it. It is not good enough to say these sections are wide enough, taken one with the other, reading one in juxtaposition with another, to include something which is not specifically mentioned.
I suggest that after the words in paragraph (g) which state:
-to study how national economic policies can best foster the balanced economic development of all areas of Canada
-there should be added "and the development of the natural resources of Canada".
[Mr. Douglas.!

I come from an area where, because of the policies of national development of the last government, with the construction of the Pine Point railway and other matters, the area is now beginning to flex its industrial muscles, based on its natural resources, and I am concerned to see that in any planning which takes place there is careful and meticulous attention paid to this part of our national life.
I took some exception to what the hon. member for Kootenay West said about people from Alberta, and I should remind him that there are some great tourists who go from Alberta to B.C., not least of which is the premier of B.C. But apart from that I think his speech was on very sound ground.
I do not want to suggest that what is done in another country is the same thing as should be done in Canada, but I would refer to the language used in England when the United Kingdom introduced a similar operation, not by the introduction of a statute but by simple executive act. The definition of the tasks of the national economic development council of that country was given by the then chancellor Selwyn Lloyd within the four corners of three simple paragraphs:
To examine the economic performance of the nation with particular concern for plans for the future in both the private and the public sectors of industry;
to consider together what are the obstacles to quicker growth, what can be done to improve efficiency and whether the best use is being made of our resources, and
to seek agreement upon ways of improving the economic performance, competitive power and efficiency, in other words to increase the rate of sound growth.
That is excellently worded and I think could well have formed the basis of the objectives in clause 9.
I do not go so far as the hon. member for Burnaby-Coquitlam in talking about indicative and other types of plan. We have heard of carrying coals to Newcastle, but here is a case of coals from Newcastle.
There is a news item in The Christian Science Monitor of Monday, May 27, 1963 under the heading, "Soviet Banker Sounds Alarm". I did not know they had Soviet bankers, but apparently they can be as alarmed as our bankers, because in his opinion the type of planning they have in the Soviet union has gone too far and too fast. This is what the article says in part:
Delegation of powers, uneconomic prices, and rapid industrial growth without checks and balances have plunged tens of thousands of Soviet enterprises into relative or absolute bankruptcy.
In the Economic Gazette of May 11, Aleksandr K. Korovushkin, Soviet state bank president, has sounded alarm. In the first four months of this year, 11 large enterprises have informed the bank that they had to stop payments.

The whole Soviet financial planning system seems to be out of gear. While production continues at full blast-mueh of it unplanned and unneeded- more and more Industries are going into the red.
I am satisfied that something along the lines of what was done in the United Kingdom is fine. I believe that while there has been too much prolixity in clause 9 it is probably along those lines, but I would like to see some specific mention of the words "natural resources".


Mr. Macdonald:: The hon. member has just referred to the legal maxim expressio unius exclusio alterius est, but surely by putting in reference to natural resources you operate that maxim because you leave out all reference to secondary manufacturing and service industries, which are not primarily concerned with natural resources. In order to achieve what the hon. member suggests, it would have to become more prolix.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Might I move that the committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again, but before doing so I wonder would there be agreement-since it seems to me all these questions could be asked on later clauses-to pass clause 9?


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall clause 9 as amended carry?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
Clause 9 agreed to.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Then I move that the committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again, I imagine at the next sitting of the house.
Progress reported.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I wonder if I might be permitted to make a very brief statement to the house about a matter in connection with private members' business. Hon. members are aware that on the notice paper there is a notice of a bill in the name of the hon. member for Marquette (Mr. Mandziuk), and it is my understanding that this bill would have fairly widespread support in the house. It is not sponsored by any party, it is sponsored by the hon. gentleman as one of the members.
With a view of ending an awkward and difficult procedural problem the government is willing to give an undertaking that before the session ends-not before adjournment- and at the first convenient time, government time will be made available for the debating and the determination by the house of that bill.
I understand that if that undertaking is given, and I hereby give it, there would be no objection on the part of hon. members to giving consent to my hon. friend from St. Paul's, the chairman of the miscellaneous
Private Bills
private bills committee, to move at this time the second reading of the bills standing in his name, so that they could go to the committee on miscellaneous private bills for processing at the earliest possible moment.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.



PRIVATE BILLS


Mr. Ian Grant Wahn (St. Paul's):: Mr. Speaker, by unanimous consent I move, seconded by Mr. Macaluso:
That Bills SD-51 to SD-251 both inclusive, which received first reading on Monday, July 29, be now read a second time and be referred to the standing committee on miscellaneous private bills, for consideration forthwith and that standing orders 93, 94(3) (a), 100, 102, 106 and 116 be suspended in relation thereto.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bills read the second time and referred to the standing committee on miscellaneous private bills.
Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Mr. Speaker, could I ask the Secretary of State a question. Does this cover all these bills? Are there any left now?


John Whitney Pickersgill: This covers every bill that has been received in this house from the other place; that is, everything that we are able to deal with. I regret very much to say I am informed that it does not include all the bills that were presented in previous parliaments; but I am given to understand that they start with the ones we received first and are carried on seriatim. This is as many as we have any capacity to deal with at this time.
Perhaps Your Honour would permit me to add an expression of appreciation to the hon. member for Marquette (Mr. Mandziuk), who made a very great effort in the last parliament, for his willingness to continue his efforts at this time.


Mr. Reid Scott (Danforth):: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the hon. gentleman a question, just for my own clarification. Do I understand from what he has said that this will cover approximately 1,000 bills?


John Whitney Pickersgill: No, Mr. Speaker. If I read the numbers aright, there are 200 bills. But that is probably wrong; there are probably fewer than that in view of the fact that there have been some other Senate bills that were not divorce bills. This procedure covers about 200 bills, but there are still a great many others. However, these are all the bills that have come to our house.


Mr. Arnold Peters (Timiskaming):: Mr. Speaker, I have just come into the chamber and am unaware of what has happened.

Royal Assent


John Whitney Pickersgill: In view of the very great interest taken by the hon. member in this matter perhaps the house would permit me to say that what I had hoped to be able to do, and what the hon. gentleman was aware of as being my intention to do on motions, I was unable to do for reasons that I would just as soon not attempt to explain at this moment. However, the difficulties which had arisen at that time were ironed out during the afternoon, and what I did was give an assurance to the house that the government would be prepared to give whatever government time might be necessary during the present session of parliament for debate and determination by this house of the bill of which notice was given today by the hon. member for Marquette. That undertaking I repeat on behalf of the government.



THE ROYAL ASSENT

[Stage Direction]
A message was delivered by Major C. R. Lamoureux, Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod, as follows:
Mr. Speaker, the Honourable the Deputy Governor General desires the immediate attendance ol this hnnonrahlp hnnsp in t.hp nhambpr of t.hp honourable the Senate.
Accordingly, Mr. Speaker with the house went up to the Senate chamber.
And being returned:
Mr. Speaker informed the house that the Deputy Governor General had been pleased to give, in Her Majesty's name, the royal assent to the following bills:
An act to amend the Atlantic Development Boar* Act.
An act to amend the Customs Tariff.
An act to authorize the construction and maintenance of a bridge and tunnel across the St. Lawrence river at the Boucherville islands, in the province of Quebec.
An act respecting Ukrainian National Federation of Canada.
An act respecting the board of trade of Metropolitan Toronto.
An act to incorporate Kinross Mortgage Corporation.
An act to amend the Judges Act and the Criminal: Code.

Gordon Minto Churchill: I should like to ask the house leader if the order of business stands for tomorrow?


John Whitney Pickersgill: I would think that we would complete the economic council bill, and if there was no objection we should like to take third reading of it before proceeding to the next measure, so that it could go on to the other place. We would then go on with the municipal development and loan bill. Then there is the surcharge order, and after that interim supply. If my memory serves me rightly they are all the measures.


Gordon Minto Churchill: And third reading of the excise tax measure.


John Whitney Pickersgill: That will be brought up at some stage.


[Stage Direction]
It being twelve minutes after six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[Stage Direction]
Thursday, August 1, 1963