1963-07-03

Mr. F. J. W. Fane (Vegreville):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to raise a question of privilege which concerns all members of this house and a good many people throughout our nation. It relates to the printing of the English version of the daily official report of the proceedings in the House of Commons.
As all our members are fully aware, this report is issued in two parts. The first part is a verbatim report of every word that is said in the House of Commons, whether in English or in French. The second part, at the back of each issue contains the English translation of the remarks made in French. Might I suggest, for the convenience of those who are not completely familiar with French, that instead of the statements made in French being printed in French in the first part, the translation of those statements be printed in English so that the whole of the first part of the daily report is in English. The original statements could then be printed in French in the second part.
In many instances questions are asked in French and answers are given in English. This necessitates, at present, looking in the back of the report in order to get the full meaning of the question and then turning back to read the answer. I note that the French version of this report is written entirely in French.


Mr. Speaker:: I thank the hon. member for bringing this important matter to the attention of the house. Fundamentally it is really a matter of administration rather than a question of privilege. However, the subject matter has been under discussion for some time, and if it meets with his pleasure I suggest that the matter be referred for study to the committee on internal economy.



MR. TURNER    REFERENCE TO STATEMENT BY MEMBER FOR JOLIETTE-L'ASSOMPTION-MONTCALM

Mr. J. N. Turner (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources):: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question
of privilege. On Thursday, June 27 the hon. member for Joliette-L'Assomption-Montcalm (Mr. Pigeon) declared that he had made an error and that he had not been paired with the hon. member for St. Antoine-Westmount but rather with the hon. member for St. Lawrence-St. George. As far as I can gather he was paired with neither. There must have been an error in the stenography, and I just want to draw the matter to his attention.


Mr. Pigeon:: Yes, I agree with that.



QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. Howard: Have any inquiries been made into the administration or the conduct or the activities of one J. E. Galibois, former Indian agency superintendent, during this term of office or after it and, if so, what was the nature of the inquiry and the results thereof?


Mr. Munro:: Yes. In addition to the normal regular inspections of the Fort St. John Indian agency of which Mr. Galibois was superintendent, a special investigation was carried out in April 1962 following complaints of serious conditions among the Indians at Prophet River. The investigation revealed that these complaints were greatly exaggerated.


SCARBOROUGH, ONT.  REPRESENTATIONS RESPECTING COMMUTER SERVICE
[Stage Direction]
Question No. 391*-Mr. Scoff:
1.	In each of the years 1959, 1960, 1961, and 1962 what requests and representations have been made to the government or to the Canadian National Railways for commuter railway services for the residents of the township of Scarborough, and what was the nature of the response to them?
2.	Does the government have under active consideration the provision of such commuter railway services to the area above mentioned?
Mr. Canfin:: 1. (a) There is no record of any requests or representations on the files of the Department of Transport.
(b)	The management of Canadian National Railways advise that no formal request was made for commuter services during the years 1959 to 1962 inclusive. In 1960 and 1961 during the procedure involved in the discontinuance of passenger service Toronto-Lind-say-Peterborough-Belleville request was made to retain an evening commuter service
17S8

Questions
Toronto to Markham. Following the board of transport commissioners approval in 1961 to discontinue the Toronto-Belleville service the railway agreed to an evening commuter train Toronto to Markham. At that time it was indicated that the train would be operated on an experimental basis to determine whether it could be compensatory.
2.	This matter is not under consideration by the federal government.


EXAMINATION OF LEGISLATION UNDER BILL OF RIGHTS
Mr. Knowles: 1.	Since the coming into force of the Canadian Bill of Rights and the Canadian Bill of Rights examination regulations, how many (a) government bills (b) public bills (c) private bills (d) proposed regulations have been examined by the deputy minister of justice to determine whether any of the provisions thereof are inconsistent with the purposes and provisions of the Canadian Bill of Rights?
2.	To how many of the (a) government bills (b) public bills (c) private bills (d) proposed regulations referred to in question 1 has the deputy minister of justice affixed a certificate stating that the said bill or regulation has been examined as required by the Canadian Bill of Rights?
3.	In the case of how many (a) government bills (b) public bills (c) private bills (d) proposed regulations has it been reported, as required by section 3 of the Canadian Bill of Rights and by section 6 of the Canadian Bill of Rights examination regulations, that there were provisions inconsistent with the purposes and provisions of the Canadian Bill of Rights, and what are the numbers, titles and dates of any such bills or proposed regulations concerning any provisions of which such reports were made?


Mr. Macdonald:: 1. (a) 129; (b) 279; (c) 1,230; (d) 1,105.
2.	(a) 129; (b) 275; (c) 1,230; (d) 1,105.
3.	(a), (b), (c) and (d): None.
Government bills are prepared in the Department of Justice and government regulations are either prepared in or examined by the Department of Justice. Any possible inconsistencies with the Canadian Bill of Rights would therefore be noted and corrected prior to Anal submission of the regulations or introduction of bills.
Where a question is raised in the house as to the propriety of a bill, examination of the bill under the Canadian Bill of Rights is made after it has been determined by the house that the measure is properly before the house.


SAWMILL BAY, N.W.T. AIRSTRIP
Mr. Rheaume: 1.	Which department of the government is responsible for operation and maintenance of the airstrip at Sawmill Bay, N.W.T.?
2.	Which companies or agencies now make use of this airstrip?
3.	Will the government consider providing this field with suitable aids to navigation and maintenance to facilitate increased use of the airstrip?


Jean-Charles Cantin: 1. No government department operates this airstrip. It is understood that Sawmill Bay strip is now operated by Great Bear lodge and used extensively in connection with fishing camps.
2.	Eldorado Mining Company and Great Bear lodge.
3.	There does not appear to be sufficient requirement for aids to navigation and maintenance as a charge on public funds at present although the matter will be kept under review.
( Translation):


REPRESENTATIONS RESPECTING
Mr. Valade: Has the federal government received any representations from the government of Quebec with regard to amending the Criminal Code in order to authorize a provincial lottery and, if so (a) what is the nature of the representations (b) does the federal government intend to meet the request of the government of the province of Quebec in this respect and if so, when?


Donald Stovel Macdonald: No representations have been received to that effect from the Quebec government since the present administration took office.
(Text):


INDIAN AFFAIRS, NORTHWESTERN ONTARIO   TEACHING OF INDIANS
Mr. Fisher: 1.	In the Indian agencies of Port Arthur, Nakina, Chapleau and Sioux Lookout, how many (a) Indian affairs schools (b) religious schools were entirely or largely engaged in teaching Indians in 1962?
2.	Where vrere these schools, and what were the names and teaching qualifications of the personnel?
. 3. What percentage and number of the teachers in these agencies did not have diplomas or other qualifications that would enable them to teach in Ontario public schools (without letters of permission) ?


John Carr Munro: 1. (a) 29; (b) 5.
2.	(a) Following is the location, names, and teaching qualifications of personnel employed in schools operated by Indian affairs branch:

Questions
Name and Address of School
Chapleau Agency Mattagami Gogama, Ont. Mobert Mobert, Ont.
Mountbatten Tophet, Ont. Nakina Agency Aroland Aroland via Nakina, Ont.
Collins Collins, Ont. Constance Lake Calstock via Hearst, Ont.
Fort Hope Fort Hope via Nakina, Ont. Lansdowne House CE
Lansdowne House Ontario
Lansdowne House RC
Lansdowne House Ontario Longlac Longlac, Ont.
Port Arthur Agency Gull Bay Gull Bay via Armstrong, Ont. Lake Helen Nipigon, Ont. Mission Bay c/o General Delivery, Fort William, Ont. Mountain Village c/o Gen. Delivery Fort William, Ont.
Name of teacher
Mr. J. D. Reed Miss D. C. Gibson Miss M. E. Kowall Mr. G. M. Young
Mr. J. Smigrodzki
Miss C. DeCruyenaere Mr. L. W. Garber Rev. J. Jeffries
Miss S. Stupavsky Mr. N. Potts
Mr. E. G. Caffin
Mr. N. St. Amant
Sr. M. of Redemption
Sr. M. Incarnation
Miss Rita Gaffney Mrs. S. T. Angus Mrs. F. Pond
Mr. J. Reilly
Miss E. M. Lingley
Mr. L. V. Ramczy-kowski
Mr. W. Devine
Teaching
Qualifications
Sr. matric. -f 1 yr. teacher education Sr. matric. + 1 yr. teacher education Jr. matric. -+- 1 yr. teacher education Sr. matric. -f- 1 yr. teacher education
Sr. matric. + 5 yr. teacher education
Sr. matric. + 2 yr. teacher education Sr. matric. + 1 yr. teacher education Sr. matric. + 1 yr. teacher education
Sr. matric. + 1 yr. teacher education Sr. matric. + 1 yr. teacher education
Sr. matric. + 1 yr. teacher education
Jr. matric. -j- 1 yr. teacher education
Sr. matric. + 1 yr. teacher education
Jr. matric. + 1 yr. teacher education
Sr. matric. + 1 yr. teacher education Sr. matric. + 1 yr. teacher education Jr. matric. + 1 yr. teacher education
Jr. matric. + 1 yr. teacher education
Jr. matric + 1 yr. teacher education Sr. matric. 4- 4 yr. teacher education
Sr. matric. + 4 yr. teacher education
Teachers'
Certificate Certificate
Title	Source
First class	Ont.
Standard 1	Ont.
"C"	N.S.
Standard 1	Ont.
Secondary	Poland
First class	Man.
First class	Ont.
First class	Ont.
First class	Ont.
Standard 1	Ont.
Standard 1	Ont.
1st yr. normal school	U.S.A.
Second class Superior Second Class First class First class	Ont. Que. Ont. N.B. Ont.
First class	Ont.
Second class	Ont.
Second class	Scotland
First class	N.S.
Secondary	Poland
Prof, class II	N.S.
28902-5-113
Questions

Name and Address of School
Pic
Heron Bay, Ont.
Sioux Lookout Agency Deer Lake c/o Oscar Lindokken,
Red Lake, Ont. Bearskin Bearskin Lake via Sioux Lookout, Ont.
Big Beaver House Big Beaver House via Sioux Lookout, Ont.
Cat Lake Central Patricia, Ontario
McIntosh Residential McIntosh, Ontario
Osnaburg Central Patricia, Ont.
Pikangikum
Pikangikum
Ont.
Round Lake Round Lake via Sioux Lookout, Ont.
Sachigo c/o Trans Air Sioux Lookout, Ont.
Name of Teacher
Miss C. Harrett Mr. I. Mazewski Mr. W. Blackbird Mrs. H. Bodnaryk
Mr. N. MacKenzie
Mr. P. Friesen
Mr. R. Henderson
Mr. B. Wiebe
Sr. M. G. Albert
Sr. M. desVictoires Mrs. Y. Paquin Miss Berthe Menard Sr. M. Ste. Mathilde Mrs. A. Downey Sr. M. duChrist Roi Miss J. M. Seabrook
Miss P. M. Feng Mr. I. L. Howes
Mr. G. R. Hubbert
Mr. D. L. Pott Mr. D. B. MacBeath
Teaching
Qualifications
Sr. matric + 1 yr. teacher education Sr. matric. + 4 yr. teacher education Sr. matric + 1 yr. teacher education Jr. matric + 1 yr. teacher education
Sr. matric + 1 yr. teacher education
Sr. matric. + 4 yr. teacher education
Sr. matric + 1 yr. teacher education
Sr. matric + 1 yr. teacher education
Sr. matric. + 4 yr. teacher education
Sr. matric. + 1 yr. teacher education Sr. matric. + 1 yr. teacher education Sr. matric. + 1 yr. teacher education Sr. matric. + 2 yr. teacher education Jr. matric + 1 yr. teacher education Jr. matric + 1 yr. teacher education Sr. matric. + 1 yr. teacher education
Sr. matric. + 1 yr. teacher education Sr. matric -f 1 yr. teacher education
Sr. matric + 4 yr. teacher education
Sr. matric. + 1 yr. teacher education Sr. matric -f- 3 yr. teacher education
Teachers'	
Certificate	Certificate
Title	Source
First class	Ont.
Secondary	Poland & U.K.
First class	Ont.
Cond.	Man.
First class	
First class	Ont.
Element- ary	Paraguay
First class	Ont.
First class	Man.
First class	Man.
First class	Man.
First class	Man.
First class	Man.
First class	Man.
Model	Que.
Second	Man.
class Standard 1	Ont.
Element-	Ont.
ary Element-	Ont.
ary	
First class	Ont.
First class	Man.
First class	P.E.I.
letter of	
standing	
IV	N.B.

Questions
Teachers'
Name and Address	Name of Teacher	Teaching	Certificateof School	Qualifications	TitleSandy Lake RC	Mrs. M. K. Deveaux	Sr. matric + 4 yr.	Prof.Favourable Lake	teacher education	class IIOnt.	Mr. A. Deveaux	3 yr. university	nilSandy Lake UC	Miss M. Wiebe	Sr. matric. + 4 yr.	First classFavourable Lake	teacher education	BOntario	Miss L. T. Heikkinen	Sr. matric. + 1 yr.	Standard 1Miss S. R. Hickerson	teacher education Sr. matric. + 1 yr.	Standard 1Sioux Lookout	Miss M. D. Nielsen	teacher education Sr. matric. -f- 1 yr.	First classResidential Sioux Lookout,	Mrs. E. H. Kingston	teacher education Sr. matric. + 2 yr.	First classOntario.	Mrs. J. E. Kelly	teacher education Sr. matric. + 1 yr.	First classTrout Lake	Mr. F. H. E. Bennett	teacher education Sr. matric. + 1 yr.	First classTrout Lake via Central Patricia	Miss S. Raymond	teacher education Sr. matric. + 1 yr.	Standard 1Ont.	Miss C. Thompson	teacher education Sr. matric. + 1 yr.	Standard 1Wunnumin	Rev. J. M. Bonnard	teacher education 2 yr. university	NilWunnumin Lake via Sioux Lookout Ontario 2. (b) Following are the locations of the re-	ligious schools and the qualifications of the	teaching personnel: Name and Address	Teaching	Teachers' Certificateof School	Name of Teacher	Qualifications	TitlePort Arthur Agency	Mrs. Rooney	Sr. matric. + 1 yr.	First classSt. Joseph's Boarding School	Sister Ruth	teacher training Matriculation	Nil(RC) Fort William	Mrs. Duggan	Sr. matric. + 1 yr.	First classOntario Sioux Lookout Agency John Paul Grimard	teacher training B.A.	NilPoplar Hill (RC) P.O. Box 695 Red Lake, Ontario Poplar Hill	Miss Elaine Zehr	Sr. matric. + 1 yr.	First class(Mennonite) P.O. Box 315,	Mr. C. Schnupp	teacher training B.A.	NilRed Lake, Ont.	Mrs. C. Schnupp	Sr. matric. + 1 yr.	First classRed Lake	Miss S. Doutrigger	teacher education 2 yr. university	Nil(Mennonite) Red Lake,	Mr. Paul Miller	B.Sc. in elementary	First classOntario North Spirit Lake	Miss Arietta	education Sr. matric. + 1 yr.	Interim(Mennonite)	McDowell	teacher training	elementaryRed Lake, Ont.	Standard 1.
28902-5-113i
Certificate
Source

Man.
Ont.
Ont.
Sask.

Ont.
Ont.
Ont.
Ont.
Certificate
Source
Que.
Ont.


U.S.A. U.S.A. U.S.A.
[Stage Direction]
Ont.
[Stage Direction]
Questions
3.	Of the total of 54 teachers employed in schools operated by the Indian affairs branch only two, or 3.7 per cent have not had teacher training and would be required to attend a professional teacher training course to be qualified to teach in Ontario schools. It may be noted, however, that both had university training beyond senior matriculation. Twenty six of the 54 teachers, or 48 per cent, who completed their professional teacher training outside the province of Ontario would be eligible for a letter of standing and could obtain an Ontario permanent certificate after probationary service of one year under letter of standing and two years' successful teaching subsequent to date of interim certificate.
Of the ten teachers employed in religious schools four have not had teacher training and would be required to attend a professional teacher training course to be qualified to teach in Ontario schools. Four who completed their professional training outside Ontario would be eligible for a letter of standing and could obtain an Ontario permanent certificate after probationary service of one year under letter of standing and two years' successful teaching subsequent to date of interim certificate.

Mr. Fisher: 1.	How many agreed charges exist at this date?
2.	What has been the figure, by year, in their increase?
3.	Which railroad took the initiative by year, in posting these agreed charges?
4.	In mid-1963, what is the estimate that the B.T.C. has of the percentage in volume and revenue from all freight that comes to each of the major railways?
5.	How many agreed charges have been contested by either shippers or other carriers?
6.	What was the number of each charge and the disposition made of the protest?


Jean-Charles Cantin: The Board of Transport Commissioners for Canada advise as follows:
1.	1,375.
2.	The number of new agreed charges filed with the board was as follows:
1958	1959	1960	1961	1962204	320	248	254	2103.	This information is not available. Agreed charges are executed and filed with the board by the Canadian Freight Association on behalf of all carriers.4.	This information is not segregated by major railways. However, the following information is from the latest waybill analysis made by the Board of Transport Commissioners for Canada for the calendar year 1961:
[Mr. Munro.l
Per cent		
	of	Per cent
	Sample	of
	Ton	Sample
Type of Traffic	Miles	RevenueClass rated	1.8	5.0Commodity non competitive	28.2	32.0statutory	37.3	12.2competitive	15.0	25.0agreed	charges	13.0	19.2Multiple rates	2.6	2.3Mixed shipments	2.1	4.3Total	100.0	100.05.	Three.6.	Agreed charges numbers 63 and 89- charges fixed for other shippers.
Agreed charge number 204-application for fixed charge dismissed.


RESEARCH INTO NUCLEAR FALL-OUT
Mr. Starr: 1.	Is research being carried on by the Department of National Health and Welfare in respect to nuclear fall-out in Canada?
2.	How many scientists are working on this research (full time) ?
3.	Is research being carried on in respect to the protection of food supplies from nuclear fall-out?
4.	How much is being spent by the Department of National Health and Welfare on this research?
5.	Have any reports been made to the department as a result of this research?
6.	Has any action been taken based on these reports?
7.	Has the government any plans to cope with the dangerous levels of fall-out?
8.	Is there any literature available to educate citizens to cope with the dangers of fall-out?


Mr. Haidasz:: 1. The Department of National Health and Welfare is carrying out an extensive study of radioactive fall-out throughout Canada. The program includes systematic measurement of fall-out levels in air, precipitation and soil at a network of stations extending across Canada and into the far north. It also includes the systematic collection of milk samples from 16 localities in the populated part of Canada; these samples are assayed for iodine 131, strontium 89, strontium 90 and cesium 137. Wheat samples are collected annually from the major wheat producing areas in western Canada and analysed for strontium 90. Human bone specimens are collected at autopsy from hospitals throughout the country and assayed for strontium 90.
2.	Three chemists and one physicist are engaged full time in directing the analytical and developmental work of this program. Three other scientists are engaged part time

on various aspects of the program. Twenty highly skilled technicians are also engaged full time in this program.
3.	The department's program of measuring fall-out levels in milk and wheat represents the first step in a program designed to protect food supplies from fall-out. Milk has been selected because, for the average Canadian diet, milk and dairy products contribute more fall-out than any other single food item. Another important step in protecting food supplies involves knowing the consumption habits of Canadians of all ages. A study is currently in progress to determine the milk consumption habits of Canadians. These steps are preludes to taking actual action should it become necessary. The department, in collaboration with the Department of Agriculture and representatives of the industries concerned, has developed a plan of action for ensuring the continuing supply of acceptable milk should the levels of iodine 131 require such remedial action. Similarly the department is keeping in touch with the development of techniques for the removal of strontium 90 and cesium 137 from milk. Because of the long term nature of the build up of these elements in the body, remedial action would not need to be made effective as quickly as in the case for iodine 131. It should be emphasized that there is not now, nor has there been, need to take any of these measures.
4.	The total budget of the department's radiation protection division is $563,255 for 1963-64 and roughly half this amount relates to fall-out studies.
5.	The radiation protection division publishes a monthly report containing all the current results from the extensive fall-out studies program. These reports are available to anyone upon request and are regularly sent to all provincial departments of health and a mailing list of about 900 names. In addition, an annual report is published which presents a more detailed description of the program and its implications to health.
6.	It is not considered that the levels so far observed are such as to warrant taking any specific action. Formulation of the plan of action for dealing with high iodine 131 levels, should the need arise, was a direct outcome of the rapid rise observed in iodine 131 levels last fall.
7.	Yes, for example the plan of action for dealing with iodine 131, should the need arise. This plan will involve specific action by the dairy farmers and the dairy processors and has been made known to them. The introduction of such measures is not required at the present time.
Questions
8.	Present fall-out levels are not such as to make it desirable to take specific action to reduce the intake of fall-out. The second report of the United Nations scientific committee on the effects of atomic radiations, published in 1962, is a comprehensive technical report which evaluates the relative risk to health from various sources of irradiation and presents the most recent information on the biological effects of radiation exposure. If fall-out levels should rise to dangerous levels it is considered that more effective action could be taken by the government than by individual citizens.


LAKEHEAD WATER LEVELS
Mr. Fisher: 1.	How much variation has there been, year to year, since 1958, in the water level of lake Superior at the Canadian lakehead?
2.	Has the government a record of the depths of water at all slips in lakehead harbour and, if so, are any of the slips shallower in depth than the official loading depths of the canals at Sault Ste. Marie and in the St. Lawrence seaway, and which slips are they (e.g. Saskatchewan pool No. 8) ?


Mr. Pickersgill:: 1. Based on the records from the water level gauge at Port Arthur, Ontario during the navigation season, April to November, inclusive, the highest and lowest water
levels were:	Highest	Lowest
	feet	feet
1958	601.65	599.271959	601.99	599.201960	601.92	599.301961	601.21	599.461962	601.29	599.14
The soundings in this harbour are reduced to a chart datum of 600.0 feet.
2.	No. These are private slips and the depths of water in them are the responsibility of the owners or operators of the adjacent elevators.


EMERGENCY RADIO EQUIPMENT IN PLANES IN NORTH
Mr. Rheaume: 1.	What emergency radio equipment is required, by law or regulation, aboard aircraft making VFR and IFR flights in the N.W.T. and the Yukon?
2.	What is the retail cost to the operator of such equipment at current prices?
3.	Do all D.O.T. aircraft flying in the N.W.T. and Yukon carry SARAH emergency radios?
4.	Has the Department of Transport a program whereby SARAH could be made available at cost on a token rental basis to all air line operators in the N.W.T. and Yukon and, if not, will the minister look into the merits of such a program?


Jean-Charles Cantin: 1. In accordance with air navigation order, series V, No. 12 aircraft operated in the sparsely settled areas of Canada, which include the N.W.T. and the Yukon, are required to carry either,


SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO MINISTER OF JUSTICE
Mr. Fisher: 1.	Has the Minister of Justice and Attorney General taken an executive assistant or a special assistant on staff and, if so, what is this person's name, age, place of birth, institutions of education and educational qualifications, governmental or business experience (position held, length of experience, name of firm) and initial and present salary with the government?
2.	What length of time has this assistant undertaken to serve the minister and/or what engagement in length of time was given to the assistant by the minister?
3.	In brief, what particular qualities of this assistant led the minister to engage him?


Donald Stovel Macdonald: 1. Yes, two special assistants. Mr. Raymond G. Denis, age: 30. Place of birth: Joliette, P.Q.; initial and present salary, $9,000.
Educational institutions: ecole Baby, Joliette, P.Q., ecole Superieure, St. Viateur, P.Q., College of Montreal and University of Montreal.
Educational qualifications: bachelor of arts, College of Montreal; licentiate in law, University of Montreal.
Business experience: Partner in law firm of Trahan, Trudell & Denis, Montreal, 1958 to 1961; junior member of Geoffrion & Prud'homme, Montreal, 1961 to 1963.


Mr. Guy  Lord@: age: 24; place of birth, Cranbourne, Dorchester county, Quebec; initial and present salary-$8,000.
Educational institutions: Elementary school, Cranbourne, Quebec; high school, St. Georges de Beauce, Quebec; College of Montreal and University of Montreal.
Educational qualifications: bachelor of arts, College of Montreal; licentiate in law, University of Montreal.
2.	While services required.
3.	Ability and experience.


SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO SECRETARY OF STATE
[Stage Direction]
Question No. 607
Mr. Fisher:: 1.	Has the Secretary of State of Canada taken an executive assistant or a special assistant on staff and, if so, what is this person's name, age, place of birth, institutions of education and educational qualifications, governmental or business experience (position held, length of experience, name of firm) and initial and present salary with the government?
2.	What length of time has this assistant undertaken to serve the Secretary of State of Canada and/or what engagement in length of time was given to the assistant by the Secretary of State of Canada?
3.	In brief, what particular qualities of this assistant led the Secretary of State of Canada to engage him?


John Whitney Pickersgill: 1. Yes. Executive assistant; name: Mr. Alistair Fraser. Age: 40 years. Place of birth: Toronto, Ontario.
Institutions of education: public, private and high schools; McGill University, 1941-42, 1945-47, B.A.; University of British Columbia, 1947-50, LL.B.
Experience: Engaged in the practice of law 1950-51; executive assistant to the Minister of Fisheries, 1952-57-Canadian commissioner, international whaling commission, London, 1956. Engaged in the practice of law,
1957-59; executive assistant to the leader of the opposition in the Senate, 1959-63; executive assistant to the Secretary of State 1963-
Initial and present salary: Initial-$6,360 per annum; present-$12,000 yer annum.
2.	As long as services are required.

3.	This should follow obviously from his record of education and experience.


BANK OF CANADA BUILDING, VANCOUVER
Mr. Patterson: 1.	Does the Bank of Canada intend to erect a building at the junction of Hornby and Hastings streets, Vancouver, and, if so, when, and what is the intended floor area of the building?
2.	What area of floor space is used in the city of Vancouver at the present time by the Bank of Canada?
3.	What are the intentions of the bank in respect to any surplus floor space there may be in this building?


Mr. Benson:: 1, 2 and 3. These matters are the responsibility of the board of directors of the Bank of Canada. In March 1962 a statement was issued giving background information regarding the proposed construction of a building in Vancouver. This statement is available from the bank on request. On May 7, 1963, it was announced that the board had decided to proceed with the building and that it was expected that work would be well under way by next winter.


SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO TRANSPORT MINISTER
Mr. Fisher: 1.	Has the Minister of Transport taken an executive assistant or a special assistant on staff and, if so, what is this person's name, age, place of birth, institutions of education and educational qualifications, governmental or business experience (position held, length of experience, name of firm) and initial and present salary with the government?
2.	What length of time has this assistant undertaken to serve the minister and/or what engagement in length of time was given to the assistant by the minister?
3.	In brief, what particular qualities of this assistant led the minister to engage him?


Jean-Charles Cantin: 1. (i) Seconded from department-
J.	Edward Devine, special assistant; age 50; born Ottawa; primary and secretarial schooling in Ottawa; bachelor of arts degree and master of arts course, University of Ottawa; employed in department since 1938 on administration and legislative duties; considerable experience on interdepartmental and intergovernmental committees, liaison with other departments and assisting offices of various ministers of transport; latter ten years as executive assistant to several deputy ministers; initial salary $900, present $11,800.
Length of engagement-indefinite.
Qualities-Unusually	wide knowledge,
gained in 25 years experience, of specific legislative and operational responsibilities of department toward the public and parliament, as well as general familiarity with functions of the several associated boards and agencies.
(ii) Appointed-
Louis Marcel Joyal, executive assistant, age 38; born Haileybury, Ontario; bachelor
Questions
of arts (honours), University of Ottawa, 1943; bachelor of civil law, McGill University, 1948; member of the bar of Quebec since July 1948; member of the Law Society of Upper Canada since September 1949; formerly senior partner with McDonald, Joyal, Fogarty and Mills, barristers, at Ottawa, Montreal and Toronto; latterly setting up his own office at Ottawa where he has conducted a practice involving corporation law, litigation, parliamentary and departmental agency; appointed at present salary of $11,000 per annum.
Length of engagement-at pleasure of governor in council.
Qualities-Extensive training and experience in the fields of both civil and common law; active participation over many years in public affairs with special attention to the field of public law; proven executive ability and adaptability.


SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO NORTHERN AFFAIRS MINISTER
Mr. Fisher: 1.	Has the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources taken an executive assistant or a special assistant on staff and, if so, what is this person's name, age, place of birth, institutions of education and educational qualifications, governmental or business experience (position held, length of experience, name of firm) and initial and present salary with the government?
2.	What length of time has this assistant undertaken to serve the minister and/or what engagement in length of time was given to the assistant by the minister?
3.	In brief, what particular qualities of this assistant led the minister to engage him?


Mr. Laing:: 1. Mr. Jacob Austin has been appointed executive assistant to the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources.
Mr. Austin's age is 31 and his place of birth is Calgary, Alberta.
Mr. Austin received his senior matriculation at Crescent Heights high school, Calgary; B.A. (history and economics) University of British Columbia, 1954; LL.B. University of British Columbia, 1955; LL.M. (international law), Harvard, 1957.
During academic year September 1962 to January 1963, Mr. Austin attended the University of California, at Berkeley, and engaged in studies in a doctoral program leading to the J.S.D. degree with the specific field of studies being in international law.
Previous experience: Engaged as lecturer in law at University of British Columbia in academic years 1955-56 and 1957-58. Engaged in practice of law in Vancouver, B.C., June 1957 to May 14, 1963, as a partner in the law firm of Nemetz, Austin, Christie and Bruk. During the course of legal practice, Mr. Austin has had considerable business experience.
Salary: $15,000 per annum.

Questions
2.	Mr. Austin has undertaken to serve the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources at least until December 31, 1963.
3.	His experience and competence.


SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO TRADE AND COMMERCE MINISTER
Mr. Fisher: 1.	Has the Minister of Trade and Commerce taken an executive assistant or a special assistant on staff and, if so, what is this person's name, age, place of birth, institutions of education and educational qualifications, governmental or business experience (position held, length of experience, name of firm) and initial and present salary with the government?
2.	What length of time has this assistant undertaken to serve the minister and/or what engagement in length of time was given to the assistant by the minister?
3.	In brief, what particular qualities of this assistant led the minister to engage him?


Mr. Pepin:: 1. Yes; executive assistant.
Michael Joseph McCabe, 25 years 5 months, Toronto, Ontario.
Lower school-St. Joseph's school, Hamilton.
High school-Cathedral high school, Hamilton.
University-University of Toronto. (B.A.)
Business experience-Lever Brothers Ltd., brand manager-Oct./59-Dec./61. Ontario Liberal assoc.-public relations director-Dec. /61

July/62. Liberal party of Canada-public relations director-July/62-Apr./63.

2.	No undertaking was given by either the minister or the executive assistant as to the length of time to be served by the assistant.
3.	He is capable of performing the duties required of an executive assistant.


SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO DEFENCE MINISTER
Mr. Fisher: 1.	Has the Minister of National Defence taken an executive assistant or a special assistant on staff and, if so, what is this person's name, age, place of birth, institutions of education and educational qualifications, governmental or business experience (position held, length of experience, name of firm) and initial and present salary with the government?
2.	What length of time has this assistant undertaken to serve the Minister of National Defence and/or what engagement in length of time was given to the assistant by the minister?
3.	In brief, what particular qualities of this assistant led the minister to engage him?


Mr. Hellyer:: 1. Yes, Group Captain William M. Lee, R.C.A.F. Age: 39. Place of birth: Hamilton, Ontario.
Group Captain Lee joined the R.C.A.F. on graduation from high school in Hamilton and has made the air force his career since. He took service courses at McGill University, Victoriaville, P.Q. and Malton, Ontario, to

graduate as a navigator and fly with the R.A.F. 45 group on operations to North Africa, the Middle East, India and Australia. After the war he attended the R.C.A.F.'s officers' administration school in Toronto where he remained after graduation as an instructor. Group Captain Lee subsequently was posted at Ottawa as a public relations officer at air force headquarters. In October 1954, he was named to head the public relations organization of the R.C.A.F.'s NATO air division with headquarters in Metz, France where he remained until appointed director of R.C.A.F. public relations in July, 1958. In May 1963, he was appointed Canadian government chief public relations officer for the NATO ministerial meeting held in Ottawa.
As an R.C.A.F. group captain, he receives the salary of $13,248 annually.
2.	No length of time specified.
3.	His experience and knowledge.


SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO FINANCE MINISER
Mr. Fisher: 1.	Has the Minister of Finance and Receiver General taken an executive assistant or a special assistant on staff and, if so, what is this person's name, age, place of birth, institutions of education and educational qualifications, governmental or business experience (position held, length of experience, name of firm) and initial and present salary with the government?
2.	What length of time has this assistant undertaken to serve the minister and/or what engagement in length of time was given to the assistant by the minister?
3.	In brief, what particular qualities of this assistant led the minister to engage him?


Edgar John Benson: 1. Yes; executive assistant: Reginald Brian Land, age 35. Place of birth: Niagara Falls, Ontario. Educational institutions: Grimsby public school, Grimsby high school, Grimsby, Ont. Vaughan Road collegiate institute and Oakwood collegiate institute, Toronto, Ont. University of Toronto: bachelor of arts, political science and economics, 1949; bachelor of library science, 1953; master of library science, 1956; completed course requirements for master of arts in political science, 1959-61. Business experience: T. Eaton Co. Ltd., Toronto, mail order advertising, copy editor, 1950-51. Canadian Business, Montreal: assistant editor, 1957-58; associate editor,
1958-1959. Library experience: Toronto public library, reference librarian 1953-1955; University of Toronto library, catalogue librarian 1955-56; Windsor public library, head of the business and industry division, 1956-57; University of Toronto library, assistant chief librarian, 1959-63; associate librarian, 1963. Salary, $12,000.
2.	While services required by the minister.
3.	Background and experience.


SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO SOLICITOR GENERAL
Mr. Fisher: 1.	Has the Solicitor General taken an executive assistant or a special assistant on staff and, it so, what is this person's name, age, place of birth, institutions of education and educational qualifications, governmental or business experience (position held, length of experience, name of firm) and initial and present salary with the government?
2.	What length of time has this assistant undertaken to serve the Solicitor General and/or what engagement in length of time was given to the assistant by the Solicitor General?
3.	In brief, what particular qualities of this assistant led the Solicitor General to engage him?


Mr. MacNaughf:: 1. Yes; executive assistant: Mr. James P. Maclnnis, age 68. Place of birth: Boston, Massachusetts, U.S.A.
Educational institutions:	public	school,
Charlottetown, P.E.I., commercial college, Charlottetown, P.E.I.
Business experience: three years as reporter, Charlottetown Examiner; 18 years as reporter, Charlottetown Guardian; three years as advertising solicitor and advertising manager, Quebec Chronicle; eight years as editor and managing editor, Summerside Pioneer and The Island Examiner; 12 years as educational director and executive secretary, Prince Edward Island division of Canadian Cancer Society; two years with Mutual of Omaha Insurance Company; three years with Occidental Life Insurance Company.
Salary: present $7,500.
2.	While services required.
3.	Ability and experience.


SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO HEALTH AND WELFARE MINISTER
Mr. Fisher: 1.	Has the Minister of National Health and Welfare taken an executive or a special assistant on staff and, if so, what is this person's name, age, place of birth, institutions of education and educational qualifications, governmental or business experience (position held, length of experience, name of firm) and initial and present salary with the government?
2.	What length of time has this assistant undertaken to serve the minister and/or what engagement in length of time was given to the assistant by the minister?
3.	In brief, what particular qualities of this assistant led the minister to engage him?


Stanley Haidasz: 1. Yes; executive assistant. John Kenneth Macbeth, 42.
Detroit, Michigan.
Two years university (Queen's University and University of Michigan).
15 years in newspaper business, five years as Associated Press correspondent in the United States and the Far East, one year parliamentary reporter for Canadian Press, other assignments in Africa, Middle East, Europe.

Questions
2.	On good behaviour.
3.	Quick intelligence, diligence, rapid and fluent speech writer, knowledge of the press, loyalty.


SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO VETERANS AFFAIRS MINISTER
Mr. Fisher: 1.	Has the Minister of Veterans Affairs taken an executive assistant or a special assistant on staff and, if so, what is this person's name, age, place of birth, institutions of education and educational qualifications, governmental or business experience (position held, length of experience, name of firm) and initial and present salary with the government?
2.	What length of time has this assistant undertaken to serve the minister and/or what engagement in length of time was given to the assistant by the minister?
3.	In brief, what particular qualities of this assistant led the minister to engage him?


Mr. Carter:: 1. The Minister of Veterans Affairs has taken Mr. Peter B. Curd on his staff as executive assistant. Mr. Curd is 38 years of age. He was born and educated in Winnipeg and in 1949 obtained the degree of bachelor of commerce from the University of Manitoba. From 1949 to 1950 he was employed by the Hudson's Bay Company. In 1950 he joined the Manitoba department of industry and commerce where he later became assistant to the economic advisor. In 1954 he joined the Winnipeg and Central Gas Company as a market research analyst. In 1957 he became an executive of the Sovereign Life Assurance Company in Winnipeg. Mr. Curd's initial salary as executive assistant to the minister was $10,000 a year which is his salary at the present time.
2.	Mr. Curd has given no undertaking to serve the minister for a specified length of time nor has the minister engaged Mr. Curd for a specified length of time.
3.	The particular qualities which led the minister to engage Mr. Curd were his experience in the forces from 1943 to 1945 during world war II, his educational background and his business and provincial civil service experience.


SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO DEFENCE PRODUCTION MINISTER
[Stage Direction]
Question No. 635
Douglas Mason Fisher: 1.	Has the Minister of Defence Production taken an executive assistant or a special assistant on staff and, if so, what is this person's name, age, place of birth, institutions of education and educational qualifications, governmental or business experience (position held, length of experience, name of firm) and initial and present salary with the government?
2.	What length of time has this assistant undertaken to serve the minister and/or what engagement in length of time was given to the assistant by the minister?
3.	In brief, what particular qualities of this assistant led the minister to engage him?

Questions


Mr. Drury:: 1. Yes; executive assistant:
Frederic M. Wanklyn. Age: 24. Place of birth: Nassau, Bahamas.
Educational institutions: Bishop's College school-senior matriculation. Princeton University-A.B. economics-political science.
Business experience: Webb and Knapp (Canada) Ltd., 2 years training program, leasing agent.
Salary: $9,000 initially, $10,000 presently.
2.	While services required.
3.	An appropriate combination of education, business experience, age, intellectual capacity and energy.


SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION MINISTER
Mr. Fisher: 1.	Has the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration taken an executive assistant or a special assistant on staff and, if so, what is this person's name, age, place of birth, institutions of education and educational qualifications, governmental or business experience (position held, length of experience, name of firm) and initial and present salary with the government?
2.	What length ox time has this assistant undertaken to serve the minister and/or what engagement in length of time was given to the assistant by the minister?
3.	In brief, what particular qualities of this assistant led the minister to engage him?


John Carr Munro: 1. Yes; executive assistant; Andre Jean Letendre; 32; Sherbrooke, P.Q.
B.A. (Universite de Montreal), Law (Universite Laval), graduate in library science (Universite de Montreal), post graduate studies in economics (McGill University).
Publicity director Le Credit Immobilier, Inc., Le Credit Notre-Dame, Inc., Montreal; co-owner of Letendre et Desy; $12,000 per annum.
2.	For as long as his services may be required.
3.	His ability, experience and trustworthiness.


SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO NATIONAL REVENUE MINISTER
Mr. Fisher: 1.	Has the Minister of National Revenue taken an executive assistant or a special assistant on staff and, if so, what is this person's name, age, place of birth, institutions of education and educational qualifications, governmental or business experience (position held, length of experience, name Gf firm) and initial and present salary with the government?
2.	What length of time has this assistant undertaken to serve the minister and/or what engagement in length of time was given to the assistant by the minister?
3.	In brief, what particular qualities of this assistant led the minister to engage him?


Mr. Garland:: 1. Executive assistant, Mr. R. N. Handy; age, 40; place of birth, Edmon-

ton, Alberta; education, High School, Vancouver, B.C.; experience, one year, bookkeeper, Snap-On Tools of Canada Ltd., Vancouver, B.C., six years; Canadian army, overseas, eighteen years; Customs and Excise division of Dept, of National Revenue (customs-excise officer to administrative officer). Initial salary, 1S45, $1,200 per annum; present, $9,000 per annum.
2.	Length of time not specified.
3.	A comprehensive knowledge of customs and excise operations gained through progressive experience in various offices; and a good performance record during which administrative ability has been demonstrated.


SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO ASSOCIATE DEFENCE MINISTER
Mr. Fisher: 1.	Has the Associate Minister of National Defence taken an executive assistant or a special assistant on staff and, if so, what is this person's age, name, place of birth, institutions of education and educational qualifications, governmental or business experience (position held, length of experience, name of firm) and initial and present salary with the government?
2.	What length of time has this assistant undertaken to serve the minister and/or what engagement in length of time was given to the assistant by the minister?
3.	In brief, what particular qualities of this assistant led the minister to engage him?


Mr. Cardin:: 1. Yes, an executive assistant; name: Mr. J. L. Gendron, Age: 47 years. Place of birth: Ste Marie Beauce, P.Q.
Institutions of education:	University of
Ottawa, B.A., M.A.; College International "Angelico" Rome, B.Ph.
Experience: Gaspesia Sulphite Co. Ltd., laboratory assistant, 1937-38; Ottawa University, lecturer, 1939-40; Post Office Department, examiner, 1939-40; Secretary of State, translator, 1940; public printing and stationery, proofreader, 1942; Department of Munitions and Supply, translator, 1942-45, Secretary of State, translator, 1945-52; Post Office Department, executive assistant to Postmaster General, 1952-57; and chief clerk, 1957-63.
Initial salary $1,560 (in 1942)-present salary $9,000.
2.	No length of time specified.
3.	His experience and knowledge.


SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO PUBLIC WORKS MINISTER
Mr. Fisher: 1.	Has the Minister of Public Works taken an executive assistant or a special assistant on staff and, if so, what is this person's name, age. place of birth, institutions of education and educational qualifications, governmental or business experience (position held, length of experience, name of firm) and initial and present salary with the government?

2.	What length of time has this assistant undertaken to serve the minister and/or what engagement in length of time was given to the assistant by the minister?
3.	In brief, what particular qualities of this assistant led the minister to engage him?


Mr. Badanai:: 1. Yes, Gerard Legare, B.A., executive assistant, was born on July 11, 1909, at Chicoutimi, Que. He was educated at the Rimouski seminary, Rimouski, Que., and at St. Joseph University, Halifax, N.S.
Elected to the House of Commons for Rimouski constituency at g.e. 1953, 1957 and 1962. President of General Printing Ltd. since 1942, past editor of two weekly newspapers: L'Echo du Bas St. Laurent and La Voix de Matane. Editor of Le Pecheur Cana-dien. President of the Canadian Weekly Newspapers Association (1954); president of the junior chamber of commerce federation (1939); churchworker, Rimouski, (1950-53). Salary: $12,000.
2.	Full time and as long as the minister wishes.
3.	This is a ministerial appointment. It is left to the minister to judge the competence and qualifications required in connection with the appointment of his executive assistant.


SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO FISHERIES MINISTER
Mr. Fisher: 1.	Has the Minister of Fisheries taken an executive assistant or a special assistant on staff and, if so, what is this person's name, age, place of birth, institutions of education and educational qualifications, governmental or business experience (position held, length of experience, name of firm) and initial and present salary with the government?
2.	What length of time has this assistant undertaken to serve the minister and/or what engagement in length of time was given to the assistant by the minister?
3.	In brief, what particular qualities of this assistant led the minister to engage him?


Mr. Robichaud:: 1. Yes; executive assistant: Mr. J. Roger Roy. Age: 22. Place of birth: Petit Rocher, N.B.
Educational institutions: Regional school, Petit Rocher (primary and high), Sacred Heart University, Bathurst, N.B.
Educational qualifications: Bachelor of arts.
Government experience: Nil.
Business experience: June-September, 1956, teller, Bank of Montreal, Bathurst, N.B.; August 1959-September 1960, McLean & Marler, Montreal, clerical; September 1960-September 1962, radio station duties, Bathurst, N.B.; September 1961-May 1963, professor, Sacred Heart University.
Salary: Initial $9,000; present, $9,000.
2.	While services required.
3.	Satisfactory to minister.
Questions


SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO
Mr. Fisher: 1.	Has the Minister without Portfolio taken an executive assistant or a special assistant on staff and, if so, what is this person's name, age, place of birth, institutions of education and educational qualifications, governmental or business experience (position held, length of experience, name of firm) and initial and present salary with the government?
2.	What length of time has this assistant undertaken to serve the minister and/or what engagement in length of time was given to the assistant by the minister?
3.	In brief, what particular qualities of this assistant led the minister to engage him?


Mr. Tremblay:: 1. No.
2.	N.A.
3.	N.A.


SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO AGRICULTURE MINISTER
Mr. Fisher: 1.	Has the Minister of Agriculture taken an executive assistant or a special assistant on staff and, if so, what is this person's name, age, place of birth, institutions of education and educational qualifications, governmental or business experience (position held, length of experience, name of firm) and initial and present salary with the government?
2.	What length of time has this assistant undertaken to serve the minister and/or what engagement in length of time was given to the assistant by the minister?
3.	In brief, what particular qualities of this assistant led the minister to engage him?


Mr. Beer:: 1. Yes; executive assistant: D. F. McIntosh; 44. Place of birth: Parkside, Saskatchewan; educational institutions: public school, high school; diploma course, dairy manufacturing, University of Manitoba, Winnipeg. Business experience: 10 years experience in dairy industry; Prince Albert Creamery Company, Prince Albert, Sask., United Dairies, Calgary, Alberta; various positions; 15 years general business experience; Grand Union of Coleman Company Ltd., Calgary, Alta., Ranchman's Hotel Company, Calgary, Alta.; administrative, managerial and executive positions; 15 years public service in civic government, Calgary, Alta.; $9,000.
2.	While services required.
3.	Ability and experience.


T.C.A. &quot;TEST HOUSE&quot;, WINNIPEG
Mr. Fisher: 1.	Has T.C.A. had a test house at Winnipeg and, if so, does it still own it?
2.	Has T.C.A. been negotiating for sale of this facility and, if so, with whom, why, and for what consideration?
3.	If disposal was or is planned, is it an aspect of T.C.A. plans to concentrate overhaul facilities in Montreal?


Jean-Charles Cantin: 1. Yes, twin engine test cells.
Questions

2.	No.
3.	No.



INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT BANK ACT


Mr. Lamberl: 1.	Have any effective proposals been made under provisions of section 15, subsection (1) (a) of the Industrial Development Bank Act and related sections by persons who are beneficiaries in the estate of a deceased person, who at the time of his or her death was the owner of substantial property either real or personal, in order to lessen the effect of a forced sale of such assets in order to pay any estate tax leviable with respect to such assets and payable within the terms of the Estate Tax Act?
2.	If so, how many such proposals have been made to date and, as far as may be ascertained, have these resulted in the preservation of Canadian ownership of assets which otherwise would have passed to foreign ownership?


Edgar John Benson: 1 and 2. Many of the loans made by the industrial and development bank have been to businesses under second or third generation ownership in order to assist in the growth or consolidation of such businesses. It is not possible to be certain in how many of these cases forced sale of the business would have been deemed necessary if financing had not been available from the industrial development bank.
[DOT]amount op milk subsidy


Mr. Ricard: 
Mr. Hays:: On the basis of the production of milk for the fiscal year 1962-63, it is estimated that $40,000,000 will be paid out to farmers during the fiscal year 1963-64 as a result of the 14J cents subsidy per pound of butterfat.



C.M.H.C. SOLICITORS, NORTHERN ALBERTA

Mr. Lambert: 1.	What solicitors or firms of solicitors, and at what addresses, have been appointed as solicitors for Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation for that area of the province of Alberta north of the city of Red Deer, excluding the city of Edmonton?
2.	What were the dates of such appointments?
3.	On whose recommendation were such firms appointed?


John Richard Garland: 1, 2 and 3. The Minister of Justice provides legal services to Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation, including the provision of qualified and competent legal agents to perform locally required legal work. Assignments are made as legal services are required from time to time. In order to avoid loss of time to the public, occasionally names

of legal agents are submitted in advance to the corporation as its requirements are on a daily basis.



C.M.H.C. SOLICITORS, EDMONTON, ALTA.

Mr. Lambert: 1.	What solicitors or firms of solicitors, and at what addresses, have been appointed as solicitors for Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation in Edmonton, Alberta, since April 22, 1963?
2.	What were the dates of such appointments?
3.	On whose recommendation were such firms appointed?


John Richard Garland: 1, 2 and 3. The Minister of Justice provides legal services to Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation, including the provision of qualified and competent legal agents to perform locally required legal work. Assignments are made as legal services are required from time to time. In order to avoid loss of time to the public, occasionally names of legal agents are submitted in advance to the corporation as its requirements are on a daily basis.



F.B.I. INVESTIGATION OF CANADIANS AT OXFORD, ENGLAND

Mr. Howard: 1.	Since January 1, 1963, has the government received any reports of investigations by the federal bureau of investigations of the United States of America or any other so-called United States intelligence agencies into the activities or politics of any person of Canadian citizenship attending the Queen's College at Oxford in the United Kingdom?
2.	If so (a) by whom were the investigations conducted (b) was any protest made by the government of Canada to the government of the United States and what form did these protests take (c) are any steps being taken to prevent a recurrence of any such activities and what are the details surrounding any such steps?


Mr. Stewart:: 1. No.
2. Not applicable.



RECOMMENDATIONS OF JOINT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN AFFAIRS

Mr. Howard: What action, in detail, has been taken with respect to each of the following recommendations of the joint committee of the Senate and the House of Commons on Indian affairs:
"(a) Indian and non-Indian children who are legally adopted should assume the status of their adoptive parents.
(b)	The status and membership rights of illegitimate children should conform, where possible, to provincial laws.
(c)	The term "enfranchisement" should be deleted from the act.
(d)	Indian women who marry non-Indians should not receive a per capita share of band funds for a period of five years, but retain the right to return to their reserve in the intervening period"?


John Carr Munro: (a) (b) (c) and (d) The implementation of these recommendations involves

legislation and is being considered in connection with a review of the Indian Act for possible amendment.



Mr. Howard: What action, in detail, has been taken with respect to each of the following recommendations of the joint committee of the Senate and the House of Commons on Indian affairs:
"(a) The Indian Act should be amended to formally recognize lawful possession of land held by an Indian for 20 years and also to permit band councils to allocate land on a conditional basis.
(b)	Designated band councils should be authorized to issue leases of reserve land for a period not exceeding five years without a surrender and/or approval of the minister.
(c)	The Indian affairs branch should withdraw from the management of lands held by an individual Indian who should be enabled to lease his land himself for designated purposes.
(d)	The Indian Act should be amended to clearly indicate the word "surrender" is confined to sale of land.
(e)	As the present provisions of section 88 of the act bar many Indians from ordinary sources of credit, the section should be amended to permit individual Indians to waive the protection afforded as regards their personal property; and band revenue funds should be subject to attachment in respect of judgments for damages and unfulfilled contracts"?


John Carr Munro: (a) (b) (c) (d) (e) The implementation of these recommendations involves legislation and is being considered in connection with a review of the Indian Act for possible amendment.



Mr. Howard: What action, in detail, has been taken with respect to each of the following recommendations of the joint committee of the Senate and the House of Commons on Indian affairs:
" (a) Greater responsibility should be placed upon Indian bands in matters of credit.
(b)	Band councils should be enabled to take adequate security on loans with the right to foreclose in case of default.
(c)	Where a band does not have sufficient funds for loaning purposes, a system of making secured loans to bands for re-loan to band members should be instituted.
(d)	An appropriate penalty should be provided in the Indian Act for misuse of band funds by band councils"?


John Carr Munro: (a) (b) (c) and (d). The implementation of these recommendations involves legislation and is being considered in connection with a review of the Indian Act for possible amendment.



COMMITTEE RECOMMENDATION RESPECTING INDIAN CLAIMS COMMISSION

Mr. Howard: What action, in detail, has been taken with respect to the following recommendation of the
Questions
joint committee of the Senate and the House of Commons on Indian affairs: "An Indian claims commission should be established to hear the British Columbia and Oka Indian land questions and other matters, and that the cost of counsel to Indians for the two land questions specified above, be borne by the federal treasury."?


John Carr Munro: As indicated in the house previously, the question of what method might be used for the settlement of the claims of Indians is one of government policy and will be announced in due course.



* LOANS TO CHARTERED BANKS BY BANK OF CANADA

Mr. Cote (Chicoutimi): What is the amount of the loans or credit advances made by the Bank of Canada to chartered or commercial banks from 1954 to date?


Mr. Gordon:: The Bank of Canada statement of assets and liabilities which is published as of each Wednesday and each month end shows the amount of Bank of Canada advances outstanding, if any, to chartered and savings banks.



* APPOINTMENTS TO FINANCE DEPARTMENT BY ORDER IN COUNCIL

Mr. Martineau: 1.	What are the names of the persons who were appointed by order in council to senior positions in the Department of Finance since April 21, 1963?
2.	What are, in each case, the date of appointment and the order in council number?


Walter Lockhart Gordon: 1. Mr. R. B. Bryce.
2. P.C. 1963-797 of May 23, 1963, to take effect on July 1, 1963.
(Translation):



*ST. PIE DE BAGOT, QUE.  CONSTRUCTION OF PENITENTIARY

Mr. Ricard: Is the St. Pie de Bagot penitentiary included in the institutions which the Minister of Justice stated on June 13 last were recommended for consideration by the treasury board in 1961, and, if so, during which financial year was it decided to begin construction?


Donald Stovel Macdonald: Mr. Speaker, the reply is as follows:
An institution for young criminals at St. Pie de Bagot was included in those recommended to the treasury board in 1961. Construction was to start during the 1962-63 fiscal year.
The riots at the St. Vincent de Paul penitentiary indicated that it was more urgent to build a special detention unit and a maximum security institution than the planned institution for young criminals, and the building program had to be slightly modified.

Questions
In order to facilitate access to these institutions from the St. Vincent de Paul penitentiary, it was deemed necessary to build them on the north shore of the St. Lawrence and steps were initiated to acquire an appropriate site.
(Text):
^NATIONAL NEWS BROADCAST, STATION CKOS, DAUPHIN


Mr. Forbes: 1.	Can the national news given in Winnipeg at 10 p.m. be extended to the Dauphin viewing audience over CKOS at the same time instead of at the present late hour of 1 a.m.
2.	Are any changes contemplated in the present schedule?


John Whitney Pickersgill: I am informed by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation as follows:
1.	No. Viewers in the Dauphin, Manitoba area receive television through a rebroadcasting station of CKOS-TV-Yorkton, Saskatchewan, situated at Baldy Mountain, Manitoba. The present pattern of delaying transmissions to stations ill Saskatchewan and Alberta, designed to meet the time zone differential and the varying observance of daylight saving time, prevents an earlier transmission to the Yorkton station.
2.	Yes. Facilities are now being established in Winnipeg which will enable Saskatchewan stations to receive network transmissions at an earlier hour. However, these facilities will not be ready for use until this autumn.



COST OF SECURITY SERVICES

Mr. Fisher: 1.	Has the government an estimate or a hard figure of what it cost for security services in the last three fiscal years and an estimate of the costs in the coming year?
2.	Has the government any comparison in this field of its costs on a per capita population basis or in any other comparable way with the costs for such services that fall at the present time upon the governments of Great Britain and the United States in operating M.I. 6 and the central intelligence agency?


Mr. Davis:: 1. It is not considered in the public interest to publish the figures requested in this question.
2. The governments of the United Kingdom and United States do not publish figures on which a comparison could be made.



OLD AGE SECURITY PENSION, B.C.

Mr. Douglas: 1.	Does the federal government, under the terms of the Unemployment Assistance Act, pay part of the supplementary allowance authorized by the government of British Columbia to the old age security pension?
2.	If so (a) what percentage, and up to what amount is paid by the federal government (b)

what amount of liquid assets may a single person or married couple in receipt of the supplementary allowance have?
3.	Has the permissible amount of liquid assets changed recently and, if so (a) what was the previous permissible amount of liquid assets (b) what part did the federal government play in the change in the permissible amount?


Stanley Haidasz: 1. Yes.
2.	(a) The federal government, under the terms of the Unemployment Assistance Act, pays 50 per cent of assistance costs. However these exclude certain specified costs, including health costs and costs by way of mothers' allowances which are deducted on a formula basis.
No ceiling is placed by the federal government on assistance payments under the Unemployment Assistance Act. In the case of additional assistance payments to persons such as those in receipt of old age security pensions, the federal government shares in payments to the extent that they are made on the basis of a test of need which takes into consideration the applicant's requirements for food, shelter and other items, as well as his financial resources. Available information in the Department of National Health and Welfare indicates that the provincial ceiling on supplementary social allowances in British Columbia is $24. The federal government will share on the above mentioned basis in this amount or to any higher level determined by a province as necessary to meet need.
(b) The federal legislation does not set limits on the liquid assets of recipients of payments shareable under the Unemployment Assistance Act. Departmental information is that under the provincial regulations a single recipient may have liquid assets of up to $500 and a married couple may have assets of up to $1,000.
3.	(a) Information within the department is that the permissible amounts of liquid assets previously set out in provincial regulations were $1,000 for a single person and $2,000 for married couples. The changes referred to were made on January 1, 1962.
(b) As a result of provincial requests for federal sharing in the cost of supplementary social allowances, discussions between federal and provincial officials were held in 1960 and
1961.	These discussions covered all phases of the program, but were primarily related to its conversion from a means test to a needs test basis. This was required to make the payments shareable under the Unemployment Assistance Act which permits sharing in additional relief payments but not in supplemental allowances or cost of living bonuses. While the limits were reduced by the province following the above discussions,

asset limits are set at the discretion of the provincial governments and vary from province to province.



TRANS-CANADA HIGHWAY COST, LEVIS TO ST. HYACINTHE, QUE.

Mr. Coates: 1.	What is the estimated cost of constructing the trans-Canada highway from Levis, Quebec, to St. Hyacinthe, Quebec?
2.	What is the estimated share of this project to be borne by the federal government?


Hubert Badanai: 1.	$55,600,000.
2. $23,000,000, which is less than the normal 50 per cent for the federal share because the province is constructing a multi-lane highway between Levis and St. Hyacinthe, and federal participation is limited to a two lane highway.



SALE OF OLD POST OFFICE, PETROLIA, ONT.

Mr. McCutcheon: Has the old post office in Petrolia, Ontario, been sold and, if so (a) how many bids were received
(b) what was the sale price (c) who were the bidders (d) who is the purchaser?


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: The post office in Petrolia, Ontario, has not been sold and parts (a) (b)
(c)	and (d) are consequently not applicable.



MOVEMENT OF FEED GRAIN IN B.C.

Mr. Willoughby: How much of the 164,270 tons of feed grain moved under the freight assistance policy to feeders in British Columbia in the year 1961-62 was transported over (a) Pacific Great Eastern (b) Canadian National Railways (c) Canadian Pacific Railway?


Harry William Hays: Under the freight assistance policy, the payments are not made by the government to the carrier, but rather to the purchaser through feed dealers, thus data by carrier is not available.



SUBSIDY ON FEED GRAIN, B.C.

Mr. Willoughby: Has any request been received from the government of British Columbia or B.C. farm organizations requesting an increase in the subsidies on feed grain from Alberta, and Kootenay areas of British Columbia, to south central British Columbia and the Fraser valley?


Harry William Hays: Requests for increased subsidy have been received from time to time but there have been no recent requests direct from the British Columbia government or from British Columbia farm organizations.



INTERNATIONAL DRIVING PERMITS

Mr. Mather: How many provinces have accepted the United Nations 1949 convention road traffic regulation respecting international driving permits?


John B. Stewart: Nine provinces.
Questions



EFFECTS OF FLUORIDATED DRINKING WATER

Mr. Mather: Has the Department of National Health and Welfare conducted or assisted in any research or studies relating to the effects of fluoridated drinking water on children's teeth and, if so (a) were conclusive results obtained (b) were the effects found to be beneficial (c) were the results widely publicized?


Stanley Haidasz: Yes. The Department of
National Health and Welfare studied the dental effects of mechanically fluoridated water at Brantford and naturally fluoridated water at Stratford during a period of 15 years.
(a)	Yes.
(b)	The results were beneficial. Water either mechanically or naturally fluoridated to a level of about one part per million was found to reduce the occurrence of tooth decay by about two thirds in people drinking it regularly from birth. No ill effects were observed.
(c)	The results were widely publicized through departmental reports, press releases, and articles in professional and scientific journals.



* ALBERT BOUDREAU, CAPE BRETON NATIONAL PARK

Mr. Muir (Cape Breton: North and Victoria):
1.	Has Mr. Albert Boudreau of Point Cross, Inverness county, been a seasonal employee at the C.B.H. national park for the past five years?
2.	If so. has he been re-employed this season and, if not, for what reason has his employment been discontinued?
3.	Is this man a veteran, and has he been contributing to superannuation?


Arthur Laing: 1. Yes.
2.	No. His term of seasonal employment ran out at the end of November, 1962.
3.	Yes. He has not been contributing to superannuation but he was a contributor to the retirement fund after July, 1960.



INCLUSION OF INDIAN AMONG WORLD FAIR DIRECTORS

Mr. Howard: 1.	In the selection of the board of directors of the world's fair, was any consideration given to giving representation to people of native Indian ancestry?
2.	What reason, if any, exists for excluding people of native Indian ancestry from the board of directors?
3.	Will the first vacancy on the said board be filled by a person of such Indian ancestry?


Hubert Badanai: 1. The selection was made by the former government and hence we have no knowledge of any considerations given to such representation.
2.	Answered by No. 1.
3.	This will be given consideration at such time as a vacancy occurs.

Questions



CHEMICAL AND BIOLOGICAL WARFARE RESEARCH

Mr. Howe (Hamilton South): 1.	In which defence research board installations in Canada is chemical and/or biological warfare research being conducted?
2.	How much has been spent on such research at each of these installations (a) in the last year (b) in the last five years?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: 1. Research into the defensive aspects of chemical and/or biological warfare is conducted at the Suffield experimental station, and defence research chemical laboratories.
2. For security reasons the information regarding the cost of these operations cannot be divulged in greater detail than in the estimates.



FARM MACHINERY IMPORTS AND EXPORTS

Mr. Smith: 1.	What was the dollar value of farm machinery exported from Canada to the United States in each of the years 1944 to 1962 inclusive?
2.	What was the dollar value of farm machinery imported into Canada from the United States in each of the years 1944 to 1962 inclusive?


Jean-Luc Pepin: 1 and 2. The dollar value of farm machinery (including tractors) exported from Canada to the United States and imported into	Canada from the United States	
each of the	years 1944 to	1962 inclusive:
	Exports to	Imports from
Year	United States	United States1944	$ 5,873,710	$ 40,531,5121945	8,993,843	50,131,3171946	14,460,350	67,785,3981947	23,478,709	104,607,7811948	50,575,122	137,447,8991949	70,214,015	173,121,5941950	70,660,697	152,582,0681951	83,495,253	187,584,0531952	83,724,608	190,138,6961953	58,121,991	202,784,7921954	53,297,955	137,025,9901955	63,423,755	173,149,6781956	55,600,423	226,799,7271957	59,408,273	194,338,0321958	90,327,153	189,966,3701959	109,612,934	254,940,5791960	79,634,440	210,216,1431961	72,188,979	209,960,2271962	77,518,386	228,149,775



UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE FUND

Mr. Howe (Hamilton South): 1.	What is the present financial state of the unemployment insurance fund?
2.	What are its future prospects?


Mr. MacEachen:: 1. The unemployment insurance fund at 31 May, 1963 stood at minus $37,181,721.58.
[Mr. Badanai.l
2. The fund can be expected to decline further until total contributions exceed total payments. This has likely occurred during the month of June.



NEWFOUNDLAND PROPOSAL RESPECTING FISHERIES POLICY

Mr. Lambert: 1.	Has the government completed its study of the proposals by the government of the province of Newfoundland with respect to a comprehensive national fisheries development policy as contained in a brief dated February 1963 and, if so, has a decision been arrived at with respect to the said proposals?
2.	What is the estimated (a) initial cost (b) annual cost to the federal government under the said proposals as (i) made by the government of the province of Newfoundland (ii) modified, if at all, by the government of Canada?


Hédard-J. Robichaud: 1. No.
2. Arrangements have been completed for joint detailed studies over the next several months, which will include consideration of costs.



CAPITAL GRANTS TO AGRICULTURAL EXHIBITIONS

Mr. Nesbitt: 1.	Have any capital grants been made to agricultural exhibitions since September 1, 1962, and, if so (a) how many grants have been made (b) what is the amount of each grant (c) what are the names of the agricultural exhibitions concerned?
2.	Are such capital grants to agricultural exhibitions still under suspension?


Harry William Hays: 1. Yes.
(a) 34.
(b) Amounts	(c) Agricultural
Exhibition
$	1,022.56
$	3,942.50
$	7,287.11
$	6,807.87

$ 14,398.50 $	6,672.86

$	8,764.92
Prince Edward Island Charlottetown Driving Park and Provincial Exhibition Association
New Brunswick Miramichi Agricultural Exhibition Association-Chatham, N.B.
Quebec
Canada's Great Eastern Exhibition, Sherbrooke Societe d'Agriculture du district de St. Hyacinthe La Commission du Terrain de l'Exposition, Trois-Rivieres La Societe d'Agriculture du Comte de Roberval
Exposition Sainte Scholastique La Societe d'Agriculture du Comte de Richelieu, Sorel Ontario
Special	grant-Royal	Winter
Fair, Toronto as detailed in Estimates
Moore Agricultural	Society-
Brigden

1.	(b) Amounts	(c) Agricultural
Exhibition

$	2,500.00
$ 12,559.96 $	7,750.00
$	662.72
$	1,572.98
$	3,029.81
$	3,334.60

$	717.50
$ 26,858.02 $	4,105.37
$	2,930.83

$	902.34

$116,000.00 $	1,676.18
$	1,513.45
$ 24,212.74 $	3,279.60
$	4,233.50
Ontario-cont.
Hanover, Bentinck and Brant Agricultural Society-Hanover Leamington District Agricultural Society-Leamington Markham Fair-Markham Metcalfe Agricultural Society- Metcalfe
Cumberland Township Agricultural Society-Navan Paris Agricultural Society-Paris Petrolia and Enniskillen Agricultural Society-Petrolia Woodstock Agricultural Society -Woodstock
Kenyon Agricultural Society- Maxville
Caledonia Agricultural Society -Caledonia
Prince Edward County Agricultural Society-Picton Manitoba
The Provincial Exhibition of Manitoba-Brandon Dufferin Agricultural Society- Carman
Portage Industrial Exhibition- Portage la Prairie Virden Agricultural Society- Virden
Saskatchewan
Moose Jaw Exhibition Company -Moose Jaw Alberta
Camrose Agricultural Society- Camrose
British Columbia Major capital grant-exhibition grants regulations-Pacific National Exhibition

Vancouver Special grant as detailed in estimates
Central Fraser Valley Fairs Association-Abbotsford Chilliwack Agricultural Association-Chilliwack Lower Fraser Valley Exhibition Association-Cloverdale Cowichan Agricultural and Industrial Exhibition-Duncan North and South Saanich Agricultural Society-Saanichton.
2.	Yes, capital grants to exhibition associations to which commitments were not made prior to June 24, 1962 are under suspension.



MUSEUM BUILDING, LOWER FORT GARRY

Mr. Slogan: Has the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources any plans for the construction
Questions
of a museum building at lower Fort Garry, and, if so, (a) has a contract been awarded (b) who
were the bidders, and what were the amounts (c) to whom was the contract awarded (d) will construction begin this summer?


John Napier Turner: (a) No. Tenders closed June 27, 1963.
(b)	Tenders were received as follows:
Rodzen Construction Ltd., Winnipeg, Man.,
$135,794.00; A. W. Homme Ltd., Winnipeg, Man., $142,979.00; Kraft Construction Co. Ltd., Winnipeg, Man., $144,820.00; Commonwealth Construction Co. Ltd., Winnipeg, Man., $146,000.00; Wallace & Akins Limited, Winnipeg, Man., $154,370.00.
(c)	The contract has not yet been awarded.
(d)	Construction is planned for this summer.



CONSTRUCTION OF HOSPITAL, PINAWA, MAN.

Mr. Slogan: 1.	Have tenders been called and opened for the construction of a hospital at Pinawa, Manitoba, by Atomic Energy of Canada Limited and, if so (a) what are the names of the companies which tendered (b) what is the amount of each tender (c) was a contract let on the basis of these tenders and, if not, for what reason?
2.	Is it the intention of A.E.C.L. to call new tenders for this project and, if so, when will work commence on this hospital this summer?


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: 1. (a) and (b) Tenders were called by Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation on behalf of Atomic Energy of Canada Limited, and the names of the companies which tendered and the amounts of each tender are as follows:
(i)	Imperial Construction Limited, $653,691.
(ii)	McAllister Contracting Co. Ltd., $658,206.
(iii)	Bird Construction Co. Ltd., $661,400.
(iv)	Rowland Claydon & Co. Ltd. $676,999.
(v)	Commonwealth Construction Co. Ltd., $677,377.
(vi)	F. W. Sawatzky Ltd., $691,078.
(c) No; all bids exceeded the estimate on the project by amounts that indicated the desirability of a reappraisal.
2. Yes; C.M.H.C. will, on A.E.C.L.'s behalf, be calling for tenders at an early date and, provided a satisfactory tender is received, it is expected that work will commence this summer.



HOUSING ACCOMMODATION, R.C.A.F. STATION, BEAUSEJOUR, MAN.

[Stage Direction]
Queston No. 782-Mr. Slogan:
1.	Have any plans been made for the government to sponsor a housing project for servicemen at the R.C.A.F. station Beausejour, Manitoba, either on the base or elsewhere and, if so, what is the nature of the plan, and what is its estimated cost?
2.	What plans does the government have to improve the accommodation of personnel at the R.C.A.F. base in Beausejour?
[Stage Direction]
Questions
Louis-Joseph-Lucien Cardin: 1 and 2. No approved plans have been made to sponsor a housing project, or to improve accommodation at the R.C.A.F. station at Beausejour, Manitoba.



POSTMASTER, INDIAN BAY, MAN.

Mr. Slogan: Has a postmaster been appointed to fill the vacancy at the Indian Bay post office, Manitoba, and, if so, what is the name, and qualifications of this person?


Mr. Denis:: No.



POSTMASTER, POWERVIEW, MAN.

Mr. Slogan: Has a postmaster been appointed for the revenue post office at Powerview, Manitoba, and, if so, what is the name, and qualifications of the appointee?


Azellus Denis: Yes. Mr. Victor Harris, overseas veteran, accountant with the metropolitan corporation of greater Winnipeg.



ESTABLISHMENT OP POST OFFICE, PIN AW A, MAN.

Mr. Slogan: Is it the intention of the government to establish a post office at Pinawa, Manitoba, and if so, when is it intended to establish this post office, and what accommodations are being planned for it?


Azellus Denis: Yes. Initially the office will be opened as a revenue post office with premises provided by the postmaster. The target date for opening is July 15, 1963.



RURAL MAIL CONTRACT, EAST SELKIRK, MAN.

Mr. Slogan: 1.	Has a contract been awarded on mail delivery at East Selkirk, R.R. No. 1, and, if so, to whom, and at what price?
2.	What are the names of each of the tenderers, and the amount of each tender?
3.	When is it anticipated that this rural route will go into operation?


Azellus Denis: 1. Yes; Mr. Michael Youzwa; $2,974.00 per annum.
2.	Michael Youzwa, East Selkirk, $2,974.00; Michael Andrayko, East Selkirk, $2,985.00; Carl Charles Tarnopolski, East Selkirk, $3,400.00; Joseph Pshednowek, Box 86, East Selkirk, $3,600.00; Mrs. Steffie E. Shumilak, East Selkirk, $4,100.00; Michael Symko, Box 171, Selkirk, $5,400.00; Fred Bosko, Box 27, East Selkirk, $6,103.00; Edward Storodub, East Selkirk (late tender), 4,200.00.
3.	As soon as the necessary arrangements can be made.



TELEVISION TRANSMISSION, DRYDEN-SIOUX LOOKOUT, ONT.

Mr. Fisher: Has the C.B.C. had difficulty at its Dryden-Sioux Lookout transmitters, including poor picture quality, fading, inadequate coverage and many off-air incidents, and, if so, what are the explanations and the likelihood of the difficulties being surmounted?


John Whitney Pickersgill: I am informed by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation that some difficulties have been experienced in television transmission at Dryden-Sioux Lookout, but the coverage is considered adequate within the "A" and "B" service contours described in the technical brief for these stations. The main source of the trouble is attributable to technical difficulties experienced by the network supplier, some of these caused by electric power lines construction and lightning storms. In addition there were the usual minor technical adjustments required to the stations' transmitting equipment in the initial stages. The major problems have been overcome and it is considered that the entire system will be operating to standard requirements very soon.



UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE BENEFITS AND PLACEMENTS, TEMISCAMINGUE COUNTY, QUE.

Mr. Marlineau: 1.	How many claims for unemployment insurance benefits have been filed with the unemployment insurance commission office at Rouyn since April 21, 1963, from persons residing in Temiscamingue county?
2.	How many claims have been approved?
3.	How many persons residing in Temiscamingue county have registered with the placement office at Rouyn since April 21, 1963?
4.	How many persons so registered have found employment through the U.I.C. since April 21, 1963?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: 1, 2, 3 and 4. The national employment office of the unemployment insurance commission at Rouyn serves an area, situated in the southwestern corner of the province of Quebec, that is approximately 175 miles from north to south and 50 miles from east to west. Besides Temiscamingue county, the area served by this office includes portions of the counties of Rouyn-Noranda and Abitibi-Ouest. The statistics for this local office are based upon the entire area served: and, therefore, they are not maintained in a manner which would permit the information requested to be extracted.



PENSION APPEAL BOARDS

Mr. Nesbitt: 1.	How many commissioners at present comprise the membership of the Canadian pension commission?
2.	What is the minimum number of commissioners required to sit on a properly constituted appeal board?
3.	Are there any special circumstances that would permit one commissioner to hear an appeal?
4.	Are appeal boards held in principal Canadian cities regularly, and at all times of the year?
5.	Is there any period of the year when appeal boards are not held and, if so, for what length of time?
6.	If appeal boards are not held during certain times of the year, for what reason are they not held?

7.	If appeal boards are not regularly held at certain times of the year, are any arrangements made for hearing any emergency cases?


Jean-Charles Cantin: 1. 15.
2.	3.
3.	No.
4.	Yes, except during July and August.
5.	Yes, during July and August except that there is a regular sitting of about three weeks' duration at points in the lower St. Lawrence area in July or August to accommodate applicants who are available only in summer, being employed in the bush, etc., at other times.
6.	It has been found most difficult to obtain attendance during July and August of medical and other witnesses whose testimony may be of vital importance to the outcome of the case, due to their absence on holidays. Hence, half the members of the commission are required to take their vacation period in July and half in August.
7.	Yes, if necessary witnesses are available. (Translation):


Mr. Chretien: 1.	On what date did the C.B.C. commence to broadcast the national news on the French language network at 10 p.m. instead of 11 p.m.?
2.	Does the C.B.C. intend to continue to broadcast such news at 10 p.m.?
3.	Is the C.B.C. considering the broadcasting of the news at 11 p.m. on the French language network as it does on the English language network?


John Whitney Pickersgill: I have received the following information from the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation:
1.	Sunday, July 1, 1962.
2.	Yes, until fall, when it is intended to broadcast the news at 10.30 p.m.
3.	No.
(Text):



GRANTS TO PROVINCES TO PROMOTE BILINGUALISM

Mr. Valade: 1.	Has the government received representations from the national centennial administration to provide for a per capita grant to each province as a subsidy for projects aimed at the advancement of bilingualism and, if so, does it intend to grant such a subsidy?
2.	If not, does the government intend to take into consideration the suggestion made recently by the chairman of the administration?
(Translation):


Hubert Badanai: 1. No.
2. If the hon. member is referring to the commissioner of the national centennial administration, I am informed that he has never made such a statement.



* MONTREAL


Mr. Valade: 1. Did the Department of Public Works order the construction of a new office for the Minister of
Order for Returns
Public Works in the public works building on Delorimier street in Montreal?
2.	What was the cost of such construction?
3.	Who was awarded the contract?
4.	Were public tenders called and, if so, when?
5.	If public tenders were not called, what was the reason?


Hubert Badanai: 1. Yes.
2.	$1,538.
3.	No contract was awarded.
4 and 5. No. The work was done by public works employees with materials already in stock.
(Text):



* BILINGUAL APPROVAL STAMPS, AGRICULTURE DEPARTMENT

Mr. Cole (Chicoutimi): 1.	As slaughtering and other establishments which, under federal inspection, deal with the classification, processing, etc., of agricultural products must carry on their products the mark of the federal Department of Agriculture "Canada est approved", will the government issue bilingual marks in line with the bilingual nature of our country?
2.	Are the employees, agronomists, inspectors, etc., required to submit their reports in English?


Harry William Hays: 1. The Department of Agriculture is considering arrangements for the establishment of the * Canada Approved* legend in the two languages.
2. No.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. Perron: 1.	Since the coming into force of the Technical and Vocational Training Assistance Act, what amounts has the government expended, by provinces, for (a) capital expenditures (b) training unemployed persons (c) training persons in regular secondary schools (d) training technicians in technological institutes (e) training teachers and instructors (f) training apprentices (g) training persons over the regular school leaving age (h) research programs?
2.	Has the government received from the government of Quebec a request or requests for the extension of these agreements and, if so, what answer did the government give?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Return tabled.
^NATIONAL PARKS


Mr. Pigeon: 1.	For each province, what is the number of national parks, and their total area?
2.	What was the cost to the government for these national parks during the last 10 years?
3.	What steps should be taken by a provincial government which is interested in the establishment of a national park?
4.	Is any one department charged with the responsibility of reviewing requests for national park development and, if so (a) how many requests have been received from the provinces since 1960 (b) which provinces made requests?


Arthur Laing: Return tabled.

Motions for Papers
MOTIONS FOR PAPERS	correspondence with water resources
CORRESPONDENCE RESPECTING WORLD FAIR Motion No. 12-Mr. Pigeon:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of all correspondence and reports on the site of the 1967 world fair exchanged between the government and the following other governments or bodies concerned: (a) international joint commission (b) St. Lawrence seaway authority (United States and Canada) (c) St. Lawrence river pilots' association (d) national harbours board (e) Canadian National Railways (f) Quebec Hydro (g) city of Verdun (h) Canadian association for the protection of birds (i) Department of Transport (j) town of Saint Lambert (k) government of the province of Quebec (1) Canadian World Exhibition Corporation.
(Translation):


Mr. Deschaieleis:: Mr. Speaker, I understand that the hon. member is willing to restrict his question to paragraphs c, f, g, h, j, k. If such is the case, the motion is acceptable subject to the usual reservation as to the consent of the province of Quebec respecting paragraph k.
(Text):


Mr. Speaker:: Is there any objection to the reservation stated by the minister?
(Translation):


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: I agree.
(Text):


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 38-Mr. Siefanson:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all telegrams, correspondence and other documents and any replies thereto received by the Prime Minister, the Minister of Finance or any government officials protesting the new 11 per cent sales tax on building material, machinery and equipment.
John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, this motion, as I think my colleague the Minister of National Revenue has explained to the hon. gentleman, would be acceptable to the government on the understanding that what would be produced would be copies of all telegrams, correspondence and other documents and any replies thereto which relate generally to the taxation and not to the cases of individual taxpayers, who might be disclosing their private affairs. I understand that is quite acceptable to the hon. gentleman and it is a reservation, I believe, that would be well understood by all hon. members.


Mr. Siefanson:: Mr. Speaker, that is acceptable.


Mr. Speaker:: Subject to the reservation as stated by the minister, is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the said motion?


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
[Stage Direction]

Motion No. 41-Mr. Herridge:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all correspondence, telegrams and other documents exchanged between the deputy minister of northern affairs and national resources and any of the staff of the water resources branch In Ottawa and the representatives of any non-government organization or other persons between January 1, 19S1, until July 1, 1963.
Arthur Laing: Mr. Speaker, in connection with this motion there has been a discussion between the hon. member for Kootenay West and my executive assistant, and I think they came to an understanding that the correspondence requested would be so voluminous that it would be impossible to accept the motion. However, they have had certain discussions and I think what has been decided will satisfy the hon. member and permit the provision to him of such material less privileged documents. Therefore the hon. member might wish to withdraw the motion as it stands at present.


Mr. Herridge:: Mr. Speaker, I understand that about 11,000 letters are involved. I appreciate the minister's explanation, but I understood the main argument against the production of these papers was the cost. The people I represent do not want to be responsible for any unnecessary cost on the treasury, so if the minister will support my motion I will forward to him by one of the page boys my cheque for $1,000 to cover the cost of photostating these 11,000 letters. I trust that as this will cause no expense to the country the minister will see fit, under these circumstances, to accept my motion.


Arthur Laing: Mr. Speaker, I think this is an extraordinary situation that has probably never before developed in this house, and I suggest, sir, that you obtain possession of that cheque at the earliest possible moment. But to be serious, I think I would like to discuss the matter further with the hon. member for Kootenay West because our department is anxious to provide the material that he wants, subject only to those privileged documents that we could not, of course, deliver. I am told that there are in all some 10,000 letters which would have to be presented. I think, Mr. Speaker, my final word is that the cheque is now in safe hands.


Mr. Speaker:: In the circumstances may I suggest that this matter stand for a few days.
Motion stands.

On the orders of the day:


Hon. George C. Nowlan (Digby-Annapolis-Kings):: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question

to the Minister oi National Revenue. In view of the statement made by the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources dealing with what he says is the most unique situation which has ever developed in the history of Canada, can he tell the house whether the cheque which has been tendered by the hon. member for Kootenay West will be construed as a gift to the reserves of the Bank of Canada and thereby be deductible for income tax purposes?


John Richard Garland: I would think, Mr. Speaker, if the hon. gentleman who has just posed the question could make a careful examination of the cheque he would find his answer there.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Speaker, I was called out of the chamber for a few moments and failed to hear the comment of the Minister of National Revenue, but I understand he cast some shadow of doubt on my cheque. Would the minister explain to the house in what way the cheque is not valid? It is made out to the Receiver General of Canada, and perhaps I should have sent it to the Minister of Finance to assist him with his deficit.


John Richard Garland: Well, Mr. Speaker, like many of the suggestions from across the way, it seems to be lacking in substance. Having said that in the true humanitarian spirit, perhaps I could pass it along to the Minister of Justice for an expression of opinion.



SALES TAX ON BUILDING MATERIALS AND MACHINERY

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 42*-Mr. Orlikow:
That an order of the house do issue for copies of all letters addressed to the Prime Minister and the Minister of Finance protesting the imposition of the 11 per cent sales tax on building materials and machinery.
John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I wonder whether the hon. member for Winnipeg North has looked at the motion already adopted by the house moved by the hon. member for Selkirk (Mr. Stefanson). I assume he has not another $1,000 cheque. If the hon. member would be willing to accept the return to be made to the hon. member for Selkirk as fulfilling his motion, there would be no objection whatsoever to his motion also passing on that understanding, so that the documents would not have to be duplicated a second time.


Mr. Orlikow:: That is acceptable to me, Mr. Speaker.


Mr. Speaker:: The motion is dropped, or is the hon. member putting the motion?


Mr. Knowles:: It is carried.
Motions for Papers


John Whitney Pickersgill: It is carried.


Mr. Speaker:: Subject to the reservation as stated by the minister, is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the said motion?


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
PROPOSED EXTENSION OF SALES TAX Motion No. 43-Mr. Knowles:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all communications, memoranda, etc., dated since June 13, 1963, received by the government or by any minister thereof, with reference to the proposed extensions of the 11 per cent sales tax, and a copy of all replies made thereto by any such minister.
John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I wonder whether I might also say a word about this motion. So far as I can discern, the only difference between it and the other two motions to which I have just referred is that it refers to all ministers instead of to the Prime Minister and the Minister of Finance. But it does not seem to me to be substantially different, and I wonder whether there could be the same understanding with respect to it as there was with respect to the motion by the hon. member for Winnipeg North?


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, may I point out that there is one other difference. The other two motions asked for correspondence and other documents received by the Prime Minister, the Minister of Finance or any government officials protesting the imposition of the 11 per cent sales tax on building materials, machinery and equipment, whereas my motion asks for all correspondence received by the government or by any minister thereof with respect to all the sales tax extensions; in other words it refers to clause 4 as well as clause 1 of the Excise Tax Act resolution, so it does call for considerably more information.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, if there is any surplusage found in regard to the hon. member's motion, would he agree to our avoiding any unnecessary duplication?


Stanley Howard Knowles: I would accept that, Mr Speaker.


Mr. Speaker:: Subject to the reservation as stated by the minister, is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the said motion?


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
EXPLANATIONS OF BUDGET PROVISIONS Motion No. 44-Mr. Knowles:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all directives or memoranda issued by the Department of National Revenue since June 13, 1963, explaining or interpreting any of the provisions of the budget presented on that date or any budgetary decisions made subsequent thereto.
[Stage Direction]
Inquiries of the Ministry
John Richard Garland: Mr. Speaker, this motion is acceptable subject to the reservation that, while all directives or memoranda issued by the department to the public will be provided, instructions to staff, understandably, cannot be revealed without impairing the efficiency of the department.


Mr. Speaker:: Subject to the reservation as stated by the minister, is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the said motion?


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 45-Mr. Knowles:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all directives or memoranda issued by the Department of National Revenue since June 13, 1963, dealing with procedures to be followed in claiming deductions for income tax purposes with respect to expense accounts.
John Richard Garland: Mr. Speaker, this motion is also acceptable with the same reservation.


Mr. Speaker:: Subject to the reservation as in number 44 stated by the minister, is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the said motion?


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs arising out of an address that he made outside the house in which it was indicated that a peace corps was being formed. I would like to ask the minister whether action along that laudable line has been taken by the government, or what is its attitude to the formation of such a corps?


Hon. Paul Martin (Secretary of State for External Affairs):: Mr. Speaker, the right hon. gentleman is not quite factual in his question, but I understand the interest that the Prime Minister has in this matter-


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Paul Joseph James Martin: -and I expect that when he returns to the house-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Paul Joseph James Martin: -he will be able to amplify what I am now going to say to the Leader of the Opposition. Any announcement with regard to a peace corps, as suggested by the Leader of the Opposition is, of course, a matter of government policy. The previous Canadian government has applauded the peace corps activities in the


United States, and we have also praised the action taken by a number of organizations in Canada including the Canadian university students organization which carry on in countries outside Canada a work similar in intention and purpose to the peace corps organization in the United States.


John George Diefenbaker: Is there any direct assistance given to this university corps by the government?


Mr.   Marlin@Essex East: As was the case with the government formerly headed by the present Leader of the Opposition, the answer is no, at the present time.


SUGGESTED NON-AGRESSION PACT WITH WARSAW PACT COUNTRIES
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. T. C. Douglas (Burnaby-Coquillam):: May I direct a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs. Has the attention of the minister been drawn to the statement by Premier Khrushchev that the Soviet union is willing to sign a test ban agreement providing a non-aggression pact could be arranged between NATO and the Warsaw pact countries? Has the minister any comment to make on this statement, and what steps does the Canadian government intend to take to encourage this proposal?


Hon. Paul  Marlin@Secrelary of Stale for External Affairs: I thank the hon. member for having given me notice of this question. The answer to the first part of the question is yes. I should say first of all, however, that the hon. gentleman's question does not make clear that it is a test ban in the atmosphere, outer space, and under water which is involved. A proposal to this effect has been put forward on several occasions by Great Britain and the United States. The indication which Premier Khrushchev has now given that he could accept such an arrangement is most welcome. It would not, however, be a substitute for a comprehensive test ban which would also call a halt to underground testing, though it would represent a significant step in that direction.
As to the second part of the question, I would say that the idea of a non-aggression pact, as I have already said in this house on May 29, could be useful in appropriate circumstances. Naturally we would have to know exactly what terms and conditions the Soviet union attaches to this suggestion, before adopting a firm decision on it or on the proposal to combine it with a partial nuclear test ban.
In mentioning the possible limitations surrounding these proposals, I do not wish to give the impression that we are underestimating their significance. A Soviet initiative looking toward some form of agreement with the

west may be of particularly great importance on the eve of the sino-Soviet meeting on July 5 and with Britain and the United States on July 15. Any proposal of this magnitude obviously requires careful study and consultation with our allies, but no effort should be spared to explore fully all the possible advantages which it may hold in terms of an east-west understanding in the broader sense.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: May I ask the minister
whether those views are being transmitted to Canada's allies?


Mr.   Marlin@Essex East: Those views are being transmitted.



WEST BERLIN


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Paul  Marlin@Secrelary of Stale for External Affairs: Perhaps I may deal with a question asked yesterday by the hon. gentleman for Kootenay West and addressed to the Acting Prime Minister, who has referred it to me. The hon. gentleman asked whether the Canadian government was consulted by the government of the United States prior to President Kennedy's announcement in West Germany that he was willing to risk destruction of American cities in the defence of west Berlin.
In answer to that question I would say that as to the specific terms used by the President in West Germany, Canada was not consulted. However, there is of course close and continuous consultation among all NATO countries on such matters as Berlin. President Kennedy's remarks in Berlin on the indivisibility of freedom, which I take it the hon. member has in mind, were a reiteration of long standing NATO policy. They are in complete accord with article 5 of the north Atlantic treaty which states that an armed attack against one or more NATO members in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all. The remarks are also consistent with the communique on Berlin issued by the north Atlantic council in ministerial session on December 16, 1958, in which the alliance fully associated itself with the determination of the three protecting powers, the United States, Britain, and France, "to maintain their rights with respect to Berlin".
Under the circumstances there was no requirement for any special consultation in this instance.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: supplementary question. Am I right in assuming from the minister's answer, which I
Inquiries of the Ministry appreciate, that it is the policy of the government of Canada, under particular circumstances, to be willing to sacrifice Canadian lives in defence of west Berlin?


Mr.   Marlin@Essex East: Mr. Speaker, I am sure the hon. gentleman, on reflection, knows perfectly well that there was no justification whatsoever for the comment he has just made.
(Translation):



REPORTED REFERENCE TO FRENCH LANGUAGE BY CONSUL AT LOS ANGELES

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, I should like to reply to a question asked by the hon. member for Nicolet-Yamaska on June 28.
I must say I asked our consul general in Los Angeles to send me a report on the speech he made last December 9 at a dinner of the French Canadian club of Los Angeles. The consul general told me he had said at the beginning of his speech he was sorry he could not speak French and would have to resort to his poor English "patois". That comment, which is altogether different from the one quoted in La Presse of June 27, did not, according to the consul general, irritate his audience. That newspaper's report, in fact, constitutes the first and only unfavourable comment made about that speech.
As a matter of fact, the speech the consul general made on December 9 does not seem to have done him any harm as far as the French Canadians in Los Angeles are concerned, because he has since been invited several times by the French Canadian Association of Los Angeles.



DOMINION-PROVINCIAL RELATIONS SUGGESTED POSTPONEMENT OF PENSION LEGISLATION

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Justice in his present capacity as Acting Prime Minister. Will the government give in to the request made by Mr. Lesage who, in his letter to the Prime Minister, insists that the study of the bill concerning contributory pensions take place only after the federal-provincial conference has been held? It must be added that he has warned the federal government against any unilateral action.


Hon. Lionel Chevrier (Acting Prime Minister):: That question is now standing and I have no statement to make on the matter.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Is there any hope that the federal government will accept?

Inquiries of the Ministry


Lionel Chevrier: The hon. member should calm down and wait patiently; a reply will be given in due course, I am sure.


Hon. Paul Marlineau (Ponliac-Temisca-mingue):: Does the government intend to table Mr. Lesage's letter dated June 27?


Lionel Chevrier: I would have to consult the Prime Minister about that. However, I believe that if such is the wish of the house, it could be tabled in due time.
(Text):



FINANCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Lawrence E. Kindi@Macleod: It has
been estimated that the 11 per cent sales tax on building materials will actually raise the retail cost on some building materials-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. Would the hon. member just state his question? He is offering advice and an opinion.


Mr. Lawrence E. Kindi@Macleod: On a point of order, if I may finish my statement, it would raise the retail cost of some building materials by some 20 per cent. I have two questions to ask. First, did the Minister of Finance himself make a study of the implications of this 11 per cent sales tax before announcing the budget? My second question is, if so, did the results obtained from that study lead him to the conclusion that the tax should be imposed?


Walter Lockhart Gordon: I have nothing to add to what I said yesterday.


Mr. George Muir (Lisgar):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to address a question to the Minister of Agriculture. Considering the expected large crop of wheat in the west for this year and the reduced sales to China, has he considered making representations to his colleague the Minister of Finance to have the 11 per cent tax removed on building materials for storage bins?


Mr. Churchill:: No answer.
(Translation):


Mr. Maurice Cole (Chicoulimi):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Finance.
Now that the minister has overcome nonconfidence votes, could he tell us why it is so difficult to remove the 11 per cent tax which will affect future small owners, heads of families, etc., when it has been so easy to remove the 30 per cent tax which affected big finance and powerful American trusts?


(Text):


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I regret that the question is not in order.


Mr. C. S. Smallwood (Bailie River-Cam-rose):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Finance. I would like to ask the minister if he has yet met with any representatives of the prefabricated home builders association?


Walter Lockhart Gordon: Yes, Mr. Speaker.


Clifford Silas Smallwood: Then has the minister anything to report to the house regarding the unfair tax placed on these people?


Walter Lockhart Gordon: I did not hear that question. (Translation):


Mr. Gerard Laprise (Chapleau):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Finance. Is the minister considering the possibility of removing the 11 per cent tax on building materials to be used to rebuild farm buildings and houses destroyed or damaged by the tornado that swept through western Abitibi last Sunday? (Text):


Walter Lockhart Gordon: Mr. Speaker, I have nothing further to add until I make an announcement on Monday, or before.
(Translation):



CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Gérard Laprise: May I
direct a question to the Minister of Transport? Could the minister tell us whether the railway transport service between Rouyn and Taschereau will soon get back to normal?
(Text):


Hon. G. J. Mcllraiih (Minister of Transport):: Yes, Mr. Speaker. The bridge which was destroyed some time ago is being rebuilt.



WHEAT-INQUIRY AS TO CREDIT TERMS FOR RED CHINA

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Jack McIntosh (Swift Current-Maple Creek):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce. Would the minister care to comment on the report that the government has authorized the Canadian wheat board to extend credit terms to mainland China on the basis of 10 per cent cash and the balance in 18 months, and in addition that the government is prepared to permit the importation into Canada of approximately $2,500,000 to $3 million per year of

assorted textiles from mainland China based on a Hong Kong valuation for fair value for duty?


Hon. Mitchell Sharp (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: For reasons I have given on many occasions I would not care to comment on either of those questions.


John (Jack) McIntosh: A supplementary question-


Mr. Speaker:: I am sorry, but I do not see how there can be a supplementary question when the first question was not answered.



EAST GERMANY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John (Jack) McIntosh: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce. Would the minister care to advise the house on how negotiations are proceeding with East Germany for credit sales of grain, which were initiated by the previous administration?


Mitchell William Sharp: Mr. Speaker, I would like to take this question as notice so that I may give a full and accurate reply to the hon. member.



STATEMENT AS TO SHIPMENTS FROM FORT CHURCHILL

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mitchell William Sharp: May I take this opportunity to answer a question which was asked yesterday by the hon. member for Mackenzie about grain movements from Fort Churchill.
I have been advised that the first ship is expected at Churchill to load on or about July 27. In preparation for the Churchill navigation season the elevator has been filled to capacity with approximately 4.8 million bushels of wheat in store. The Canadian wheat board is now in the process of issuing shipping orders to the elevator companies, and arrangements have been completed with the Canadian National Railways for the movement of wheat from country elevator positions to Churchill commencing July 15. This is the usual procedure followed each year by the board. This movement will continue until all shipments from Churchill have been completed and the terminal elevator has been filled again.



PUBLIC WORKS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. K. H. More (Regina City):: I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Agricul-
28902-5-114
Inquiries of the Ministry ture. May I preface it by saying I hope that he enjoyed his visit to my constituency last week. The press report of his meeting in Regina has the minister making the following statement in answer to a question about a cement contract for the south Saskatchewan dam: "We shall award the contract on a draw basis, that is by drawing the names from a hat". I should like to ask the minister if this is government policy, approved by the cabinet and by the treasury board.


Harry William Hays: May I say to the hon. member for Regina that I enjoyed my trip very much and that the people were very pleased to see me.
To answer the hon. member's question, the contract involved is a cement contract involving a sum in the neighbourhood of $1,700,000 for which there were identical bids from two companies. We sent them back and asked the companies to reconsider them. They came back as identical bids. My department felt there should be some way of drawing them, not necessarily out of a hat. But it is a responsibility of the treasury board to deal with these matters. The treasury board now have the bids in front of them, and they will handle them in their own good way, I suppose. But the feeling in my department is that we would prefer them to be drawn out of a hat when identical bids are put in in connection with these contracts.


Mr. J. E. Pascoe (Moose Jaw-Lake Centre):: Does the minister's answer mean that the government will contravene the Criminal Code to establish lotteries or draws?


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Is it correct that the procedure followed by the previous government was to allocate 25 per cent of the contract to Saskatchewan firms, since 25 per cent of the cost was being borne by the Saskatchewan government, and the balance of the contract was split between the two companies when identical bids were submitted? Was that the practice formerly followed? If so, why is it not being followed now?


Harry William Hays: That was the procedure in the past. These contracts are now in the hands of the treasury board which will be dealing with them. I have just expressed my view and the view of my department.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: A separate ministry?


Mr. R. W. Priftie (Burnaby-Richmond):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Agriculture supplementary to the question asked by the hon. member for Regina in

Inquiries of the Ministry regard to cement contracts. In view of the identical bids will the minister ask the restrictive trade practices commission to review this particular case?


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, may I just say this, that with regard to the question of identical bids, which has come up repeatedly in this house, questions have been asked by hon. members as to whether or not this offends against the statute. The practice has been that unless there is some clear cut evidence that there has been an agreement, the matter is not generally referred to the restrictive trade practices branch; or, as I should have said, to the director of the combines investigation branch. Unless and until there is, I am afraid there is nothing that I as Minister of Justice can do to bring it to the attention of the director.


David Orlikow: supplementary question. I wonder whether the Minister of Justice means to tell the house that what is required is a confession in advance from the company concerned that they have sinned before the government will act?


Lionel Chevrier: If there is any evidence which my hon. friend or any other hon. member has that there has been an understanding or an agreement in this or any other case, all he need do is to bring it to the attention of the Minister of Justice, who will at once see to it that the director under the Combines Investigation Act will give it immediate study.


David Orlikow: Is it not the job of the department to look at the evidence, not the job of hon. members?


Lionel Chevrier: If my hon. friend is not familiar with the statute perhaps I should tell him what the statute says. The statute clearly indicates that (1) if a number of residents of the country, six in number, will bring before the minister or the director any evidence of agreement, or (2) if there is evidence of another character, then the matter may be brought to the attention of the director. I remember when I was on the other side of the house similar cases were brought to the attention of the minister of justice, and my recollection is that this was the answer he gave. If there is substantial evidence of agreement I will bring it to the attention of the director, although thus far I have not seen any.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Does the Acting Prime Minister consider that the only solution, where there are identical bids, is to put them in a hat and decide the successful bidder by means of a national lottery?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I must point out that this is taking on the nature of debate, and I think we should progress.


Kenneth Hamill (Ken) More: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Acting Prime Minister whether the statement made by the Minister of Agriculture in Regina represents new government policy for awarding contracts, and whether it was approved by the cabinet and treasury board.


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the hon. member listened carefully to what the Minister of Agriculture said. He made it quite clear that he was giving his own views on the matter, and I think he added that the matter had been referred to treasury board for determination. I may add that since these questions have been asked of me by hon. members in that quarter it comes to my mind now, and I believe this is the custom, that treasury board, when there are equal tenders, automatically refers them to the director of investigation and research of the combines investigation branch.



COLUMBIA RIVER-SUGGESTED STUDY OF CANADIAN USE OF WATER

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Speaker, I wish to address a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs, knowing of his interest in farmers and their problems. My question is of great concern to farmers of British Columbia, Alberta and Saskatchewan. Has the minister or any other member of the government received representations from the western Canada reclamation association since its annual meeting in Kelowna on Friday, June 21, urging the federal government not to sign the present Columbia river treaty with the United States to develop hydro power on the Columbia until a study has been made on reserving this water for Canadian use?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, speaking for myself the answer is no.
(Translation) :



WORLD FAIR


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Leon Balcer (Three Rivers):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Public Works. Since the minister is to meet the mayor of Montreal and the chairman of the executive council

within the next few days, could he tell us whether he has invited Messrs. Bienvenu and Carsley to that meeting and whether they will attend?


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Mr. Speaker, I invited them yesterday in accordance with the statement I made in the house about ten days ago to the effect that a meeting of all parties interested in the world fair would be called. I suggested that the meeting be held next Saturday and the commissioner, the assistant commissioner and Mr. Gerard Levesque, minister of the province of Quebec, have been invited.
(Text):



LABOUR RELATIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Barry Mather (New Westminster):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question I would like to direct to the Minister of Labour. I wonder whether the minister could report today on the situation of the industrial dispute involving the longshoremen of British Columbia and the British Columbia shipping federation. Is everything being done by the department to avoid a tie-up of the waterfront industry?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: Mr. Speaker, the parties to this dispute were in negotiation yesterday and are continuing today. May I tell my hon. friend, who inquired recently about the present and prospective position of the unemployment insurance fund, that an answer given today to his colleague from Hamilton South will answer his inquiry of several days ago.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Reid Scott (Danforth):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to address a question to the Acting Prime Minister. In view of the urgency of providing the fullest employment opportunities in Canada, and in view of the statement of the Minister of Finance that the one item in the government's program which would have the quickest effect in this regard is the municipal loan fund, will the minister assure the house that notwithstanding suggestions and requests from certain outside sources for delay, this important piece of legislation will be proceeded with without any delay whatsoever?


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, I think that important piece of legislation is a matter for
28902-5-1141
Inquiries of the Ministry the house to decide upon. In so far as the house leader is concerned, I am sure that we on this side would be delighted to have it proceeded with as soon as we have disposed of other matters; but I think one has to consider the temper of the house and the views of those who represent their respective parties. In so far as we are concerned I think we would be happy to have it moved up as fast as possible.


Mr. Heward Grafftey (Brome-Missisquoi):: A supplementary question. Inasmuch as the government has indicated to the premier of Quebec that it will delay discussion of this legislation until the forthcoming federal-provincial conference, does the government consider that this legislation is now before the house to be dealt with?


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, I am just wondering why the suppliant tone of voice of my hon. friend in the last part of his question. I think it has been made clear in the house by the Minister of Finance and by the Prime Minister what are the intentions of the government vis-a-vis this important piece of legislation.


Reid Scott: Has the minister, or any other minister, indicated to the premier of the province of Quebec that this matter will be delayed?


Lionel Chevrier: I am not aware of any such statement having been made.



IMPLEMENTATION OF ROYAL COMMISSION REPORT

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Donald Maclnnis (Cape Breton South):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the minister of mines. Does the government intend to implement the recommendations of the Rand royal commission report, which would prove very detrimental to the coal operations in Nova Scotia?


Hon. W. M. Benidickson (Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys):: I am sorry, I was looking at desk notes. Would the hon. member please repeat his question?


Malcolm MacInnis: I understand the minister to say that he wants the question repeated.
I asked the minister whether the government has any intention of implementing the Rand royal commission report recommendations, which would prove very detrimental to the coal operations in Nova Scotia.


William Moore Benidickson: Mr. Speaker, the Rand royal commission report was delivered in 1960. No action was taken by the previous

Inquiries of the Ministry administration with respect to it. I think the hon. member knows better than anybody that the announcement which I made last week respecting coal was perhaps more heartening than anything that has been heard by the people of Nova Scotia with respect to the coal industry for some time.


Malcolm MacInnis: A supplementary question.


Mr. Speaker:: May I point out to the hon. member that his first question was really out of order because it was a negative. It was not asking for information, it was tendering it.


Malcolm MacInnis: With all due respect, having received an answer I would then consider that a supplementary question would also be in order.


Mr. Speaker:: What is your supplementary question?


Malcolm MacInnis: It is this. Has the minister not heard of the recommendation of the Rand royal commission report about the reconstruction of the Louisburg fortress, and would he not consider that quite a feat of the previous government?


William Moore Benidickson: Mr. Speaker, in two or a little more months of office I can assure the hon. member that all these Rand recommendations are being given consideration, but I repeat that this report was before the previous administration for a long time.



UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Raymond Langlois (Meganiic):: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Labour. In view of the flow of letters coming in from the unemployed who are having trouble with the unemployment insurance commission, when will the minister consider applying some of the recommendations of the Gill report?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: Mr. Speaker, as I have stated already in the house, the report of the Gill committee is presently under consideration, and as soon as that consideration and study is completed the government will be in a position to make recommendations, possibly in the form of legislation for action by parliament.


Raymond Langlois: As a supplementary question, will the minister tell us approximately when he expects these studies of the Gill report to be through, and when he intends to implement them with legislation?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: I do not think I could tell my hon. friend the exact time when these


complicated studies and considerations will be completed, but they will be undertaken with as much dispatch as possible.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Allan Joseph MacEachen: While I am on my feet, Mr. Speaker, may I tell the hon. member for Megantic (Mr. Langlois), who inquired yesterday about a strike at Solbec copper mine, that this particular labour dispute is under the jurisdiction of the province of Quebec and for that reason it is not of direct concern to the federal Department of Labour.



TELEVISION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I might reply to a question which was asked yesterday by the hon. member for Vancouver East (Mr. Winch) with reference to the ceremonies on what I shall call the 1st of July, to avoid offending the susceptibilities of any hon. member. I am informed by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation that the entire evening program was not recorded. Parts of the evening ceremony were taken on film and excerpts from the film were shown on the national television news. The afternoon program of folk dancing and choral singing was recorded on television tape and broadcast at 5.30 p.m. to the C.B.C. television network.
Apparently a great deal of film was also taken by C.T.V. and shown on its stations, because I saw some of it myself late last night on the private station here in Ottawa.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if consideration could be given by the Secretary of State, between now and next year, to having a definite term for the 1st of July. There is quite a degree of confusion as it is called Confederation day, Dominion day and Canada day. Surely some definite title could be selected so that a minister of the crown would not have to refer to it as the 1st of July. If that could be done it would be something to celebrate.


John Whitney Pickersgill: The hon. gentleman knows his question is completely out of order since he is attempting to initiate a debate, but none the less I would be glad to reply to it. A bill passed through this house a number of years ago to change the name of the 1st of July, to Canada day, and I wish it had passed the other house as well. I am only giving my personal view on that, and only speaking personally,

but the efforts made by the government to which I belonged before 1957, to replace the word "dominion" by a more modern and realistic term, were resisted strongly by the Tory party at that time. As soon as they came into office they dropped the term "federal" and began using the word "dominion", in what I thought was a very retrograde manner. I would draw this to the attention of the hon. member for Joliette-L'Assomption-Montcalm (Mr. Pigeon).


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I am sure that the house listened with interest to the gratuitous observations made by the minister, but may I say to him that the degree of agreement on the part of the present government was indicated by the fact that while he, as Secretary of State, called it "Dominion day", the Prime Minister was afraid to say that, and referred to it as "our national day". I understand the Secretary of State for External Affairs sent out a notice that it should be called, "Canada day" internationally. That is the measure of agreement over there.


John Whitney Pickersgill: On a question of privilege, Mr. Speaker-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I think we have had a measure of sharing the health and fair play.


John Whitney Pickersgill: On a question of privilege, Mr. Speaker, I was answering a question-


John George Diefenbaker: Nonsense.


John Whitney Pickersgill: -asked by the hon. gentleman and therefore I was acting within the rules.


John George Diefenbaker: No, you were not.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Then the right hon. gentleman chose to make a gratuitous observation which was neither accurate, factual nor relevant, all of which goes to show that it is a good idea to abide by the rules.


John George Diefenbaker: I so agree with that, and say to the hon. gentleman, "physician heal thyself."
(Translation):


Mr. Gerard Chapdelaine (Sherbrooke):: Mr. Speaker, since this debate originated from a question I asked last week, I should like to add that I am more confused now than I was when I asked it. We had only two terms at that time, namely "Confederation" and "Dominion" and now we have five, namely "Confederation", "Dominion", "Canada", "National" and "1st of July".

(Text):


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: May I ask a supplementary question. I did not intend to cause the minister to uncork his propensity for political
Inquiries of the Ministry polemics. I was merely asking him if he would take whatever steps are necessary for having a definite name for it by next year. He still has not said whether or not he would.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I think the difficulties have been demonstrated.



WATER RESOURCES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Frank Howard (Skeena):: About a week ago I asked the Minister of Fisheries whether his attention had been drawn to an article in the Trail Times which advocated a change in the direction of flow of the Columbia river and sending it into the Fraser. The minister at that time said he had not seen the article. I wonder if he has now seen it and would he care to comment on it?


Hédard-J. Robichaud: In reply to the hon. member I wish to say that I have now seen the article in question, and I want to assure him that the interests of the fisheries will be protected in any projects undertaken on the Columbia river.



ROYAL CANADIAN MOUNTED POLICE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Lionel Chevrier: I should like to reply to a question which was asked some time ago by the hon. member for Burnaby-Coquitlam concerning a resident of Regina who applied for citizenship and was subsequently interviewed by Corporal Young of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.
This resident of Regina, as a result of having made application for Canadian citizenship, was indeed subject to a routine investigation by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police on behalf of the Department of Citizenship and Immigration. In this instance, however, due to the person's admitted association with known communists, the investigation was extended beyond the normal records check. This man was questioned on no subject but his alleged communist association. There was definitely no suggestion that he give information on other persons as a means of obtaining his citizenship. I have no information as to any other political activities of this man as the Royal Canadian Mounted Police made no inquiry of such a nature.
1798	HOUSE OF
Suggested Extension of Family Allowance
I understand this individual's application tor citizenship is now before the Department of Citizenship and Immigration for determination.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: May I ask a supplementary question? In view of the fact that the associations which are allegedly communist are denied by this man, does this not point up the advantage of having the kind of appeal board which we in this corner of the house have been asking for repeatedly?


Lionel Chevrier: As my hon. friend knows, I replied to that question yesterday and there is nothing more that I can add.
(Translation):



NATIONAL CAPITAL COMMISSION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Mr. Speaker, I should like to answer the question which was asked by the hon. member for Pontiac-Temiscamingue concerning works along the Ottawa river.
There has been no interruption of the works on the Ottawa river parkway and everything is going in accordance with the commission's master plan. If progress was delayed in one area, that is the one between Island Park drive and Churchill avenue, it was because the commission could not close off the north end of Churchill avenue before that stretch was transferred to the commission by the city of Ottawa.
The national capital commission had some trouble in convincing the city of Ottawa to surrender certain arteries of major and secondary importance but, on June 21 of this year, the municipal council agreed to the commission's request and the transaction will be completed when certain technical details are taken care of. A settlement should be reached in the near future.
(Text):

The house resumed from Tuesday, July 2, consideration of the motion of Mr. Gordon for committee of supply.



SUGGESTED EXTENSION OF FAMILY ALLOWANCE COVERAGE

[Stage Direction]
(Translation):
['-to give the hon. member for Winnipeg South Centre (Mr. Churchill) full credit for this. If the house is agreeable, I would move the second reading of this bill.']
Mr. Clement Vincent (Nicolel-Yamaska):: Mr. Speaker, during the next few minutes, and before the question is put on the main motion, I would like to submit a grievance to the house, which I and the whole Canadian people think should be raised at this time.


When the house goes into committee of supply, opposition members traditionally avail themselves of this opportunity of raising important questions. May I tell you today that I am particularly concerned about the fact that hon. members opposite seem to have forgotten a promise made by the Liberals during the last election. I am thinking of the promise made by the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Pearson) himself when he stated that family allowances should be paid to children over 16 who are still going to school. I have here an official statement which the Prime Minister made in Sydney, Nova Scotia, on March 1, 1963:
(Text):
The Liberal program will extend family allowances to children beyond the age of sixteen. This is for boys and girls who remain in school.
(Translation):
Indeed, Mr. Speaker, you know that all political parties represented in this house had incorporated that item in their platform in the last election.
I have here the program of my own party and I see that, in the field of social security, the following point had been included: increase of social security. A portable pension plan, a contributory retirement plan, and old age pensions were mentioned, as were family allowances up to the age of 18 for children who were continuing their studies.
Moreover, in order to prove that there was unanimity as to the significance of such legislation, I shall quote the statements in the house of the spokesmen of the various political parties during the last session, in 1962-63.
Here are, for instance, the words of the Prime Minister, who was then leader of the opposition, according to page 72 of Hansard for the 1962-63 session:
Family allowances should be extended from age 16 to age 21 for all those boys and girls who are continuing their education.
There is also the following statement by the representative of the Social Credit party, the hon. member for Villeneuve, on page 138 of Hansard:
-a suggestion already put forward by Social Crediters since 1945, that is to grant family allowances to all children who continue their studies until they are 21 years old.
Even the hon. member for Quebec-Mont-morency, who is now sitting in the house as an independent, also declared himself in favour of such a policy during the same debate, as reported on page 156.
During the last federal election, the New Democratic party took the same stand and declared itself in favour of such an extension of family allowances.

Therefore, Mr. Speaker, everybody, without exception, would support such a measure; but what is being done about it today?
Was there any mention of it in the speech from the throne? No. Did the famous budget speech say anything about that? Again, no. Was a resolution put on the order paper in that connection? No.
Where are those people who spoke of immediate action and who led every Canadian father and mother to believe that starting next September every child of 16 years and over who is still attending school would be entitled to family allowances? We hope that the Minister of National Health and Welfare (Miss LaMarsh) will be able to meet the Minister of Finance (Mr. Gordon) who, when he is not in the house, spends his time receiving delegations and reading letters and telegrams of protest about the 11 per cent sales tax on building materials which is ruining that sector of our economy. We hope that she will be able to meet him and discuss the possibility of making this happy announcement in the nearest possible future.
Mr. Speaker, 1 feel it is most unfair to the fathers and mothers of Canada that no legislation has yet been introduced in that connection after all four political parties represented here have committed themselves in that respect.
(Text):
Mr. Speaker, it might be thought that since I represent a riding in the province of Quebec my views are expressed from the standpoint of that province only. However, I find on inquiring from my colleagues from other provinces that there is general agreement in our party on this matter. As I have just stated in French, during the past election campaign the extension of family allowances to age 18 for those still in school was advanced as a party platform all across Canada. It seemed to be a reasonable and necessary step. Between the ages of 16 and 18 is a crucial period in the life of many young people; they are often undecided whether to continue in school or drop out. In most provinces school attendance is not compulsory after age 16, and the urge to get a job is very great.
Approximately seven weeks from now, September 1, marks the opening of another school year. Many students, especially boys, will fail to return to school, and these boys in the 16 and 17 year age group will be throwing themselves on to the labour market. A large percentage of them will be accepting menial employment, the nature of which will not be suitable for a life's work or a useful
3. 1963	1799
Suggested Extension of Family Allowance and profitable career. There are many individual reasons for this trait or trend, but the main reason is the financial inability of many parents to maintain their families and at the same time bear the expense of keeping their children of high school age in secondary school. At this uncertain time the continuation of family allowances might be the deciding factor which would enable a young person to stay in school. If for no other reason, this extension would be justified and should be implemented right away. At the same time it would be a help for those who plan to stay in school anyway.
Now the first 60 days have passed and nothing has been done in this case. In another 60 days our young people will be either going back to school or dropping out, and they are left in a state of uncertainty. This is just one more subject on which the government has left the people of this country in doubt. Why is this solemn promise, made to such a large percentage of Canadian parenthood and Canadian youth across this country, not kept? This is the question we are asking the government. We would like to have an answer right away and we would like to have action as soon as possible.
(Translation):


Mr. L. P. Antoine Belanger (Charlevoix):: Mr. Speaker, since we are now dealing with the spending of public funds and more particularly with the distribution of expenses, may I remind the government-
(Text) :


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Batten):: Order. Is the hon. member speaking on the same grievance as the last hon. member?
(Translation):


Mr. Caron:: Are you speaking of the same grievance?


Louis-Philippe-Antoine Bélanger: Mr. Speaker, I wanted to speak about the unemployment situation-


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, if I may, I should like to remind the hon. member that under standing orders when a member has stated a grievance, the debate ends only when all those who wish to participate in the debate have done so. Consequently, no further grievance can be stated until the first issue is settled.
For the information of my hon. friend, the Speaker asked whether all those who wished to take part in the debate opened by the hon. member for Nicolet-Yamaska (Mr. Vincent) had concluded their remarks. If that is the case, I feel that the hon. member for
1800	HOUSE OF COMMONS
Suggested Extension of Family Allowance
Charlevoix could carry on and raise another grievance.


Louis-Philippe-Antoine Bélanger: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the house would consent-
(Text):


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Batten):: Is there any other hon. member who wishes to speak on the first grievance?
(Translation):


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Speaker, I should like to deal with the topic which was raised by the member for Nicolet-Yamaska (Mr. Vincent).
As my friend stated so rightly, the members of our group are most surprised that there has been no mention either in the speech from the throne or in the budget, of extending family allowances to children of 18 years of age. Indeed, during the last election campaign, the Acting Prime Minister, the hon. member for Laurier (Mr. Chevrier), went from one end of the riding of Joliette to the other promising on his honour that the eligible age for family allowances would be raised from 16 to 18 if his party formed the next government.
Now that they form the government, the Liberals do not say a word about that. Not a single member on the government side has expressed the wish-


An hon. Member:: Wait a second.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: -to have the floor and challenge the government to carry out its election promises.
Mr. Speaker, I feel that the government has not lived up to its responsibilities. It would be logical to extend the benefits of family allowances to children of 18. That was part of our platform and the hon. member for Three Rivers (Mr. Balcer) advocated the adoption of such a measure, on behalf of our party, during the election campaign.
I am not surprised that no provision was made in the budget for the extension of family allowances. Since the Minister of Finance (Mr. Gordon) consulted financial experts, why did he not also consult experts of the eastern provinces, of the province of Quebec and of the western provinces? He would probably have been advised to extend the application of family allowances as promised. The government did not fulfil its obligations.
I would be happy, for instance, to see the hon. members for Outremont-St. Jean (Mr. Lamontagne), for Bonaventure (Mr. Be-chard), for Gaspe (Mr. Cyr) and even the hon.

member for Cochrane (Mr. Habel) rise in this house and accuse their own party of not having fulfilled its promises. But no, Mr. Speaker, they say not a word.
I notice that the hon. member for Outremont-St. Jean, the President of the Privy Council, stares at me in open-eyed surprise. Mr. Speaker, one may say that, in a way, he has engineered our budget, naturally with expert help. He also has engineered the speech from the throne, but he has not thought of including in the legislation-


Mr. Lamontagne:: I am not an engineer.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: -a bill extending the eligible age for family allowances. The hon. member for Outremont-St. Jean should resign on the spot. As we know, Mr. Speaker, he ran twice in the county of Quebec East. The voters sent him packing, and with good reason, for it was notorious that he was incapable of implementing his promises. He finally had to run in a safe constituency of Montreal, and it seems evident that if the hon. member-


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Batten):: Order. The hon. member will admit that his present comments have not much to do with the matter in hand. I would ask him to revert to the substance of his speech.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: I bow to your decision, Mr. Speaker, but I do feel that my observations are related, even if indirectly, to the promises made in the last electoral campaign by those who are today on the treasury benches.
When I refer to the hon. member for Outremont-St. Jean, I know, as I said, that he was the engineer of his party's program, and, if I am not mistaken, he has even talked about increasing family allowances. That is why we would appreciate it on this side of the house, as hon. members of other parties, if the hon. member for Outremont-St. Jean would only stand up and give the reason why the government has not decided to introduce a bill or a resolution to extend the age limit for family: allowances.
Mr. Speaker, the government failed in its responsibilities. And that responsibility rests heavily on the shoulders of the hon. member for Laurier and of all hon. members who sit on the government side.
We should like to hear the Minister of National Health and Welfare (Miss LaMarsh) -as we know, she was on the truth squad-

speak the voice of her conscience and of her party's conscience.
Mr. Speaker, those are the few observations I wanted to make. I think we, on this side of the house, were justified in raising that matter. I should like to commend publicly the hon. member for Nicolet-Yamaska for having pointed out that important grievance and we regret that the government has not only introduced the most centralizing budget since confederation but has at the same time introduced no measure to assist Canadian families and to extend, for instance, the eligible age for family allowances.
I hope the hon. member for Outremont-St. Jean will stand up and give us the reasons why his party has not carried out the promises made during the last election. If he cannot take his responsibilities, let him resign and I think the electors of the province of Quebec would be quite happy over such a decision coming from him.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: The hon. member for Chicoutimi (Mr. Cot6)-


Mr. J. A. Habel (Cochrane):: Mr. Speaker, precisely on the same subject, I wanted first-


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Order. The hon.
member for Chicoutimi.


Mr. Maurice Cote (Chicoutimi):: Mr. Speaker, if there is one party in the house which has concerned itself with family allowances, I believe it was the Social Credit party. It is the party which has been most active in promoting family allowances in Canada. I believe the Canadian people should give us credit for having been the great promoters of family allowances for the welfare of families.
Family allowances represent in themselves an increase in purchasing power. That is what we are constantly preaching, an increase in the purchasing power of consumers, an increase in the purchasing power of families, of Canadian mothers and fathers, because we are aware that Canadian families do not have enough purchasing power to buy the production of our country.
That is one of the great problems which is facing us and which we must ponder constantly.
Moreover, we know that family allowances are also a kind of dividend. They are somewhat like a dividend distributed to all the citizens, to all the children of Canada. Because this method of distributing revenue is so popular, it is very much favoured by our party.
28902-5-115
3, 1963	1801
Suggested Extension of Family Allowance
Now, I should like to emphasize this. We have heard our friends, the Conservatives, talk about this subject and they moved us deeply when they talked with sobbing voices, as it were. When they were 208 on the government side, I was wondering why, at that time, they never thought of increasing family allowances.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Would the hon. member permit me a simple question?


John Cole: Certainly.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Would the hon. member for Chicoutimi tell us-because our program contained many items we wanted to put forward, including that of extending the period of eligibility for family allowances-why his party, with the help of the Liberals, overthrew us in this house?


An hon. Member:: Because you did not increase family allowances.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Why did you prevent us from carrying out our program, which included family allowances?


John Cole: Because we had too
many promises from you which you did not fulfil.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Well, all you had to do was to give us the time.


John Cole: Mr. Speaker, we feel the time has come to adjust family allowances to the cost of living, which has greatly increased.
Families are in the tragic situation where they cannot face this constant increase in the cost of living.
Recently, for instance, there was an increase in the price of milk, bread and sugar, essential products all. In the case of sugar, for example, there was absolutely no reason for the increase in price. There are now in the world countries which could supply us with all the sugar we need.


Some hon. Members:: Order.


John Cole: I am again referring to family allowances, Mr. Speaker, to point out that the price increase of those products which are essential to life-bread, for instance, which is produced in abundance in this country-is inexcusable and unacceptable, when we have in Canada millions of bushels of wheat for which we cannot find any use.
That is why it is necessary to increase immediately family allowances to adjust them
1802	HOUSE OF
Suggested Extension of Family Allowance to the cost of living. One must not forget that family heads are responsible for their children's education and, for this, they must have an extra income.
In order that parents be able to keep their children in school even until the age of 21, family allowances must be in keeping with the cost of living.


Joseph-Alphonse-Anaclet Habel: Mr. Speaker, I shall be brief and this way my hon. friend from Timmins (Mr. Martin) will probably have the opportunity to speak.
The members of the opposition have the privilege to raise grievances on such an occasion. However, I could not help being surprised to note that the hon. member for Nicolet-Yamaska (Mr. Vincent), had decided to talk about the matter of family allowances and that he was followed in that line by the hon. member for Joliette-L'Assomption-Mont-calm (Mr. Pigeon) because if my memory serves me right they were both members or, at least, they both sat on the side of the former government and they could certainly have raised that matter during those six years of administration.
Since the Conservative party always shows diffidence in taking decisions, and only after the Liberal party had decided to include in its political platform the payment of allowances to school children between 16 and 18 did the members of the opposition decide to approve the idea, and today they are surprised to find that the matter has not yet been submitted to the house.
I heard a while ago the hon. member for Nicolet-Yamaska say that the 60 days are over and still nothing has been heard about that. Mr. Speaker, a lot is being said about those 60 days. However, if the hon. members of the opposition would read again the statements made by the Prime Minister (Mr. Pearson), during the election campaign they would find that reference was always made to 60 days of decision. Those decisions have been taken and now it is up to the house to act accordingly.
It is not by listening to speeches like those we have heard since the beginning of the session that the house will be in a position to take the necessary measures to solve present problems. As soon as the most urgent problems are solved, I am confident that the party which promised to pay those allowances to children between 16 and 18 will find a way to bring before the house the legislation to do that.


Needless to say the hon. members of the opposition should remember that in 1944 the government of that time had to fight to have the bill establishing family allowances passed. In fact, some Conservative members were so opposed that they left their party. Briefly, the Conservative party still feels the effects of those defections, because some of its leaders were against family allowances.
Perhaps the hon. members of the opposition would gain by reading again the story of 1944 and 1945. They would understand then that if it is an item in an election platform, or even what may be called an election promise, the government must first of all take the necessary time to restore the country's finances and then fulfil its promises.
I am fully aware of the qualities of the present Prime Minister and of his ministers- but as the hon. member for Joliette-L'As-somption-Montcalm demands their resignation, I ask why he did not resign during the six years his party was in office, and paid no attention at all to the matter under consideration.
Mr. Speaker, it is proper that this question should be discussed now, and it is the privilege of opposition members to discuss it. However, to be frank, I must say that I am astonished at their lack of information. In my opinion, they should have raised the question quite differently, because they are so vulnerable especially after the promises they made in 1957 and in 1958, promises they never kept.


Mr. Marcel Lessard (Lake St. John):: Mr. Speaker, would the hon. member allow a question?


Joseph-Alphonse-Anaclet Habel: Certainly, with pleasure.


Marcel Lessard: Since the government was first of all to balance the country's finances, can the hon. member tell me why the present government's first action was to acquire nuclear arms when they could have also kept other promises made during the election campaign?


Joseph-Alphonse-Anaclet Habel: Mr. Speaker, I am perfectly at ease to reply to this question. In my opinion, an undertaking is an undertaking and I am sure that the only country to profit from Canada's refusal to accept its responsibilities would have been communist Russia. In addition, I am sure that the hon. member who just asked that question would be the last man to support communist Russia.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Order. Can I remind the hon. member that at this time we are on a particular grievance concerning family allowances?
(Text):


Mr. M. W. Martin (Timmins):: Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to take this occasion to lend our views to the support of this grievance which has been raised by the hon. member for Nicolet-Yamaska (Mr. Vincent). It seems almost wearisome as we go down through the years, lending our support first to the Tories, who implore the Liberals to bring family allowances up to what they should be, and then to the Liberals who plead with the Tories to do the same thing. Now the kettle has displaced the pot, and once more the Conservatives are pleading with the Liberals to do what they should have done when they themselves had the opportunity. It seems to me a sort of smokescreen which each party seems delighted to raise. By raising this smokescreen perhaps they think that if they make it thick enough they can pull the smoke over the eyes of the Canadian people. Perhaps they think that if they point the finger and shout hard and long enough at the other fellow they can get the Canadian people to take their eyes off themselves so they will not see how they shirked their responsibility to do something about the matter when they had the opportunity.
Mr. Speaker, if we look across the country from coast to coast we see the result of a great deal of expense which governments present and past have gone to in order to advertise the need to keep our young people at school and provide for their education. At the same time as they spend all this money on this advertising program they cut our children off the family allowance at the age of 16, and by so doing undo any good they might be doing in the other direction. Year after year we see the cost of living steadily climbing, but neither this government nor its predecessor seems to think that the family allowance program should bear any relation to the cost of living.
We have supported this question in the past, we are supporting it now and we will continue to support it. If the family allowance was a good idea back in 1945 when it was first passed-and we say it was because we supported it at that time-we say that it is still the same good idea today. We say that this allowance should have the same purchasing power today that it had when it was approved in 1945. There is not much use putting 28902-5-115i
Suggested Extension of Family Allowance good measures on our statute books if we just forget about them until perhaps public pressure has so built up at some future date that the government, in fear and trepidation, just prior to an election or something like that makes some gesture in this regard. This legislation is good legislation. It was good legislation when it was passed and it should be kept up to date. I have one final word of warning for this present government, Mr. Speaker. We are living in a very rapid age. It took 22 years for the Canadian public to get fed up with the previous Liberal government. It took only six years to get fed up with the Conservative government. This government has only 60 days behind them and, Mr. Speaker, if you look at your daily newspaper you will find that the Canadian public are already getting fed up again. I say, Mr. Speaker, that this government should look about them and realize that the games they used to play in the past are no longer good for this present day.
(Translation):


Mr. Remi Paul (Berihier-Maskinonge-Delanaudiere):: Mr. Speaker, I should like, at the outset of my remarks, to point out to my good friend the hon. member for Cochrane (Mr. Habel) that the gentleman who submitted the grievance discussed this afternoon was not a member of this house prior to June
1962.	Consequently, he could not speak on behalf of the people to the Conservative party in order to obtain this much needed legislation which was made an issue in an election campaign throughout the province of Quebec, specifically to gain the people's confidence.
We heard several hon. members for instance, among others the hon. member for Chambly-Rouville (Mr. Pilon), either on the radio, on television, or in public meetings, promise emphatically to the people of Quebec, that, as soon as the Liberal party was in power legislation would be passed to enable parents to receive an extended family allowance until their children reached the age of 18.
During the election, nothing was said about this legislation being introduced in the more or less near future. On the contrary, they said: "As soon as he takes over, the leader of the Liberal party will introduce some legislation to that end."
The hon. member for Cochrane voiced some unjustified criticism, because when the Conservative party promised to introduce social measures, action was taken immediately. Indeed, in 1957, when the Conservative party
1804	HOUSE OF
Suggested Extension of Family Allowance included in its platform legislation to increase old age pensions, it did not happen six months or a year later, but the bill which raised the old age pension rate from $46 to $55 was passed immediately during the first session.
If that grievance was raised today, it was because the present government failed to introduce, as soon as it came into power, a resolution or measure which would have been in keeping with its propaganda during the last election, more particularly in the province of Quebec.
We, in the Conservative party, also included such legislation in our election platform though, with the specification that, wherever the provision existed, as in Quebec, for instance, the children might get a double family allowance. But no, rather deprive the Canadian taxpayer than help him.
Speaking of the 60 days of decision, the hon. member for Cochrane said that we would now see some action. That might be, but what have those 60 days of decision given to the people of Canada? They have brought about a tax increase with the 11 per cent tax on building materials. They have-


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Order. I am sure the hon. member will understand that he cannot deviate from the grievance under consideration as he is doing at present. I trust he will also recognize that his remarks on the 11 per cent sales tax on building materials are irrelevant.


Rémi Paul: You are quite right, Mr. Speaker, but I respectfully submit that I was just calling the attention of the house on a problem, not making any comment on it. If I refer to the 11 per cent sales tax on building materials, it does not mean that I intend to deal with that issue. I merely wish to draw this matter to the attention of the house.


An hon. Member:: I am here, yet I am not here.


Rémi Paul: When the Liberal party decided to abolish the subsidy of 25 cents per hundred pounds of milk which was paid to farmers, that was surely not a progressive measure.


An hon. Member:: Order.


Rémi Paul: To continue my remarks on the point under consideration, Mr. Speaker, when the government removed the subsidy of 50 cents per ton of lime bought by farmers, that was not a progressive step either.
IMr. Paul.]

If the government had wanted to be honest with themselves, they should have introduced a motion in that respect immediately. I must commend the hon. member for Nicolet-Yamaska for having raised that question which is of the utmost importance because it was promised that the legislation in that connection would come into effect no later than next fall. And I wonder how the Minister of Finance (Mr. Gordon), who is so anxious about the welfare of the people, will be able today to achieve balance in the administration of the country since his budget speech. I wonder if he should not also contribute to balance the family budget by increasing the family allowance rate for children between 16 and 18.
Mr. Speaker, it is a measure that deserves criticism because it was the cornerstone of an election campaign devised to force the confidence of the people. In fact, I am of the opinion that the Liberal party, on that matter as on many others, fails lamentably, and I would not be surprised if, in the end, that measure were granted to children of school age, not by a Liberal government but by a Conservative one anxious to fulfil the promises included in its platform.


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, I do not intend to speak at length on the grievances just raised by the hon. member for Nicolet-Yamaska, because I think that my fellow member for Cochrane (Mr. Habel), replied to the allegations of hon. members opposite as well as I might have done. There are, however, certain remarks I want to make at this time.
The grievance raised at this time concerns the fact that the government has not as yet extended family allowances in the case of children from 16 to 18 years of age, as the Liberal party promised during the last election. My answer in respect to this is clear and concise. That promise is part of our platform and we shall carry it out. We shall see to it that this very important measure is enacted, not only because it was promised by the Prime Minister who always keeps his word, but because it is essential for Canadian families that such extension is granted. We would not like the program we advocated during the last election not to be enacted.
On the other hand, I want to remind hon. members opposite that we have been in power a little over two months now and during that period we have only to look at the order

paper to see what we have accomplished. In 60 days, it is impossible to enact a program which normally takes four years. During those few days we have tried to place before the house-we actually have put it on the order paper-what we think should have particular priority. I do not want to say that this extension is not needed and that it should not have priority, but in the Prime Minister's statements with regard to his emergency program, either before or during the last election there was no question of such a measure.
At any rate, we only have to compare the order paper with that of our Conservative friends to find that there is actually some substance in it.
The resolution and the bill we examined concerning the establishment of a department of industry, one of the objectives of which would have been to bring assistance to underdeveloped areas-


Rémi Paul: Mr. Speaker, I would like to point out that in his remarks the Minister of Justice is roaming quite far away from the grievances under consideration at present. The Speaker deemed advisable to call me to order a moment ago because I had raised a point which had been considered by the house. Now the Acting Prime Minister dares to make comments on existing legislation.
I submit that he must obey the rules like any other members.


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, what I was trying to do was give the reasons why in the 60-odd days since we took office, it had not been possible to implement that part of our program and to explain my point, I tried to put on the record what we intended to do. However, if my hon. friend feels this is out of order, I will tell him this: Since he had something to say, since he complained that in those 60 days, we had achieved nothing, since he has made so much fuss about this matter, why was it that over the past six years, he and his colleagues were unable to convince the Conservative party that they must give assistance to those who need it and increase family allowances or at least extend their coverage? What was he doing all those years?
Besides, we have only to ask ourselves the following question, Mr. Speaker: Who was responsible for the adoption of the family allowances act if not the Liberal party? And it was responsible not only for the creation
3,	1963	1805
Suggested Extension of Family Allowance of family allowances but for the establishment of a whole social security program. I am also asking this other question: What party, when the family allowance bill was under consideration, opposed it if not the Conservative party?
Therefore, I am quite at ease when the hon. member for Joliette-L'Assomption-Montcalm (Mr. Pigeon), with his reasonable and logical arguments, is trying to complain about our stand because he must have forgotten that his honourable friends in the Conservative party before he even came to the house, strongly opposed family allowances. Has he forgotten that one of his party leaders-
Mr. L. J. Pigeon (Jolieile-L'Assomplion-
Montcalm): Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
(Text):


An hon. Member:: You don't like it.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: What do you say? If you want to speak, stand up.
(Translation):
The hon. member for Laurier is attributing to us remarks and intentions we do not have, since according to our platform, we intended to provide an extension of family allowances to children from 16 to 18, which shows that the hon. member for Laurier had no call to say that.


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member should know the rules and if he does not, he should at least be kind enough to
read them because his point of order is not genuine. He would be entitled to address himself to another very soon and explain his position.
I want to say this. When the Liberal party introduced family allowances in Canada to the house, I was present and I know who were those who objected; they were the Conservatives, one of whom unfortunately is not here any more, as well as the one who later became the Leader of the Opposition who also objected to them in his speeches. But when a vote was taken on family allowances, even though they had been opposed to that legislation, they did not have the courage to stick to their opinion and they voted for it except for the hon. member to whom I referred earlier for he had the courage to vote as he had spoken, clearly and definitely against family allowances.


An hon. Member:: Talk about nuclear arms.


Lionel Chevrier: As my hon. colleague the Secretary of State (Mr. Pickersgill) is reminding me, the former premier of Ontario, Mr. Drew, declared himself against family
1806	HOUSE OF
Suggested Extension of Family Allowance allowances and spoke against the measure. Therefore, my hon. friends opposite should not get unduly excited. What surprises me about the hon. member for Nicolet-Yamaska (Mr. Vincent), the hon. member for Joliette-L'Assomption-Montcalm (Mr. Pigeon) and the hon. member for Berthier-Maskinonge-De-lanaudiere (Mr. Paul) in particular, is that for six years they had or at least should have had the opportunity to make representations to their party in that respect. Did they talk about it in caucus? They probably did. But they were never heard because they had no responsibility and because the Conservative leaders did not take them seriously.


Clément Vincent: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege. The Minister of Justice stated that some of us did not say a word at the caucus during six years. It was absolutely impossible for me to attend the caucus during the past six years because I have been representing the riding of Nicolet-Yamaska only since June 18, 1962.
(Text):


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Batten):: Oi'der. I do not think the hon. gentleman has a true question of privilege. If he wishes to refute something the Acting Prime Minister is saying he will have his turn when the present speaker is finished.
(Translation):


Lionel Chevrier: Then, to come back to what I was saying, and if I offended my hon. friend, well, I may tell him right away that my observations apply to his two colleagues and not to him, because he has given an explanation and I am sure the house will take good note of it.
Now, it was suggested a while ago in the other part of the house, and I think it was the hon. member for Timmins (Mr. Martin) who complained that the Canadian people were fed up with the Liberals because of certain statements they made. While I am on this matter of family allowances, I admit, Mr. Speaker, that the C.C.F. party as it was called at that time did not object to family allowances but its supporters did not show much enthusiasm if I well remember their attitude at that time. However, they did not want to get caught the same way as the Conservatives. But, after all, they did not show as much enthusiasm as they have on some other matters of public welfare in this house.
To conclude, I should like to recall that before the 1962 election, the hon. member for Three Rivers (Mr. Balcer), speaking on television, condemned the Liberal party for having done nothing concerning the family


allowances, completely overlooking the fact that it was the Liberal party which had established family allowances and he went on to state clearly that if the Conservatives were returned to power, he would show the Liberals what an effective, alert, and well-informed administration could accomplish. Well, neither the hon. member for Three Rivers, nor the member for Nicolet-Yamaska, nor the member for Joliette-L'Assomption-Montcalm, nor the member for Berthier-Maskinonge-Delanaudiere succeeded in convincing the government of the time to do anything at all.
Now, Mr. Speaker, I say to them that if they have a grievance, it must be directed first of all against their government which during six years did absolutely nothing in that respect. You can speak the way you do all you like, but it is a fact that during the election campaign, you were in agreement as you are when you sit on the other side of the house, but when you sit on this side, you are divided, you work aside from your party. And the best evidence of that is that 11 of your ministers, as my colleague was saying last night, resigned in less than 11 months. Disagreement existed in your government and it existed in your party.
I conclude by saying that we have a policy on family allowances. We did mention it during the election campaign and the program will be fully carried out but give us a chance to catch our breath. We must be given sufficient time to see what should be done. If that is not enough, do not forget that we did much more in 60 days than any other government since confederation.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Would the Minister of Justice allow me a question?


Lionel Chevrier: Certainly.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: During the last election campaign, the minister and his party promised that as soon as they would form the government they would introduce a bill or a resolution to extend family allowances.


An hon. Member:: To age 21.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: How is it that the moment they came to office, no mention of it was made in the speech from the throne? That, then, is lying to the people, it is one or the other.


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, I like the way my hon. friend asks his question. He speaks of lying to the people. All I shall tell him is this: the right hon. Prime Minister's statement was clear and precise. It was not circumspect, not preceded by words such as "as soon as we come to office". He said we were going to do what we could to achieve as quickly as

possible what we felt to be in the common and general interest of this country. By that I do not mean that extending the eligibility period for family allowances is not of the utmost importance, but I say that as soon as we have the opportunity of fulfilling that promise, it will be kept the same as the others.
(Text):


Mr. G. L. Chaiierlon (Esquimalt-Saanich):: I did not intend to join the debate on this grievance, but having heard the Acting Prime Minister (Mr. Chevrier) I think I should say a few words. The Acting Prime Minister has just said that the government is going to fulfil its promise to extend family allowances. The question to which he did not give an answer was when. The Acting Prime Minister tried to indicate that there are so many items on the order paper they could not find space for this important measure. There is apparently a question of priorities.
Surely, Mr. Speaker, it should be obvious to any member of the house, just as it is to the people of Canada, that an amendment to the Family Allowances Act would be an extremely simple matter, and would be one which would meet with no opposition. If the house leader decided to introduce that measure it would go through in very short order because I doubt if anybody in this house would object to it. The Acting Prime Minister asked the question, what did we do in our six years in office? The point is that we had not previously promised to do this. During the last election campaign the Liberal party promised it.
I have before me an issue of the Victoria Daily Columnist for March 31, 1963. In an advertisement I find the heading "Opportunities for Youth", and under this heading there is the following:
Extend family allowances beyond the age of 16. for boys and girls who remain students.
Now, Mr. Speaker, this was in April-I beg your pardon, this advertisement was published in March. Many families across the country expect this measure to be introduced before next September. Many families are in a position where they are not certain whether or not the boy or girl shall continue in school. These families expect this measure to be put into effect before school starts in September. Where do they stand now?
The house leader has indicated to us that there will be no further measures put on the order paper before this session ends. In other words, we understand that the Family Allowances Act amendment will not be introduced. What do these people do now? Should they send the pupil back to
3, 1963	1807
Suggested Extension of Family Allowance school or should they not? This is the question that has not been answered by the Acting Prime Minister.
If this were the only promise the Liberals had made during the last election campaign which they do not intend to fulfil, we might accept that as one of the things that could not be implemented. You cannot fulfil all the promises. However, there are so many others about which nothing has been done that the people naturally become suspicious about whether or not the Liberal government is going to fulfil this promise. For example, in the same advertisement and under the same heading, "Opportunities for Youth", there is a reference to establishing Canada scholarships for university education. No reference was made to this in the throne speech. There has been no action on this promise by the government. Surely, therefore, the people are justified in being suspicious as to whether or not the Liberal government will fulfil this promise about family allowances.
The next promise relates to health care. In the same full-page advertisement, which must have cost quite a lot of money-


John Whitney Pickersgill: I am rising on a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for Charlevoix (Mr. Belanger) sought permission of the house to raise another grievance. It seems to me that the hon. member for Esquimalt-Saanich (Mr. Chatterton) is departing from the grievance that is before the house and raising a series of other matters which are irrelevant to the grievance before us. It is quite unfair to deprive the hon. member for Charlevoix of his turn to raise a specific grievance. It seems to me the hon. member for Esquimalt-Saanich should stick strictly to the question of family allowances or give way to the hon. member who has the right to the next turn.


Paul Raymond Martineau: If I may speak to the point of order raised by the Secretary of State, I would say his point of order cannot be entertained. The hon. member who has the floor is simply replying to the Acting Prime Minister. The Acting Prime Minister gave as one of the reasons for the failure of the government to fulfil this promise the fact that many other promises had been made and had to be fulfilled. What the hon. member is doing now is simply replying to the Acting Prime Minister, and saying that his reason is not a valid excuse. This is the reason he has brought up the other matters, but he is dealing directly with the grievance that has been proposed by the hon. member for Nico-let-Yamaska (Mr. Vincent) and is not straying to another subject.
1808	HOUSE OF
Suggested Extension of Family Allowance


George Louis Chatterton: In so far as the point of order is concerned, I may say that I know hon. gentlemen on the other side do not like the comments. They try to avoid these questions. The point I was trying to make was this, and it is pertinent to the grievance: If this were the only promise made upon which the Liberals had not taken action, then we might excuse them. However, there are many other promises that have not been implemented. I referred to the promise about health care upon which the Liberals have taken no action. These remarks are pertinent in that they point up the fact the Liberals have made so many promises that have not been kept, and this is one promise they do not intend to keep before school starts in September.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Batten):: I feel the discussion is getting away from the original grievance. If we do get away from the original grievance, then it is difficult to get back to that grievance with which the house started. I would suggest the hon. member might get himself out of his present difficulty by staying as closely as possible to the original grievance.


George Louis Chatterton: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am sorry if I have strayed into another field which is disliked so much by hon. members opposite. I shall, therefore, stick to the grievance.
I will conclude by saying that I hope hon. members opposite will keep in mind my point that school starts again in September and many families want to know before that time whether or not the family allowance measure will be introduced. I hope the house leader will put the measure on the order paper before the session ends. If he does, I am sure he will get the complete support of all of us.


Donald Stovel Macdonald: I should like to ask the hon. member a question. I understood he indicated that if the family allowance measure were put on the order paper it would be passed immediately. Is he undertaking, on behalf of his party, not to obstruct this measure as they have the others?


George Louis Chatterton: Mr. Speaker, may I reply to that question? I am surprised at the audacity of hon. members opposite even speaking about obstruction. I would think that would be a word they would never want to hear again. In this session so far, we have been a conscientious opposition-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


George Louis Chatterton: -discussing these proposals intelligently.


Mr. H. A. Olson (Medicine Hal):: I wanted to ask a question or two of the Acting Prime


Minister at the conclusion of his remarks. I am wondering if it would be in order to do so now or would he rather reply to the questions asked by the previous speaker? If not, I would like to ask him-and I will be very brief in this-whether he has run into some problems now, either administrative or financial, perhaps, in implementing this promise that he did not anticipate when the party made the promise during the last election campaign. If they have found some administrative or financial problems that are delaying the implementation of this promise, I wonder whether the Acting Prime Minister (Mr. Chevrier) could inform the house as to what these problems are and what action the government is now taking to resolve them, so we may have an early decision as to when this promise will be implemented and how much it will amount to when it is made effective.


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, in answer to that question I would say that I know-


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Batten):: Order. I would inform the Acting Prime Minister (Mr. Chevrier) that he has already spoken on this subject.


Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson: May I raise a point of order, Mr. Speaker. 1 did wish to put this very brief question to the Acting Prime Minister immediately he concluded his remarks, but I did not get an opportunity. Therefore I would humbly request that he be given an opportunity to answer the question now.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Batten):: Is there unanimous consent that the Acting Prime Minister be permitted to answer the question?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, in answer to that question I would say that I know of no administrative difficulties with reference to the matter. In so far as financial difficulties are concerned, there are of course limits to the amount of money available to a minister of finance, and there are also limits to the amount of revenue that can be raised. In so far as the second question is concerned, I presume that when the measure is before the house the Minister of National Health and Welfare (Miss LaMarsh) will be in a much better position than I am to deal with such detailed questions. But in so far as administrative difficulties are concerned, I know of none. In so far as financial difficulties are concerned, one needs to raise the revenue in order to provide for the extension; everything cannot be done overnight.


Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson: But you were aware of this when you made the promise, were you not?


Lionel Chevrier: Oh, quite; and I think if the hon. member will look at the Prime Minister's promise he will clearly see that everything was not to be done overnight.


Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson: Sixty days.


Lionel Chevrier: It was a four-year program, and the Prime Minister made that quite clear in his statement on the speech from the throne.


George Louis Chatterton: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the
Acting Prime Minister a question. At the time this promise was made during the election campaign, did he have in mind that it would be brought in in one year, two years, four years, or when?


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Six years.


Joseph-Alphonse-Anaclet Habel: It will not take six years, anyhow.


Lionel Chevrier: It was not a question of six years, Mr. Speaker. The Prime Minister clearly indicated during the election campaign that a large part of the program would take a period of four years to implement. The position now is that there are on the order paper quite a number of important matters which, if they were dealt with, with dispatch, would be of tremendous assistance to the economy of the country as, of course, would this measure.


George Louis Chatterton: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Batten):: Order. I believe we are getting out of order with all these questions and answers. I would refer the hon. member to citation 234 of Beau-chesne, which says that on this particular type of motion no hon. member is allowed to speak more than once.


Mr. W. B. Nesbitt (Oxford):: Mr. Speaker, I realize that a number of points have already been made in this regard and I do not wish to take up the time of the house or of hon. members who have other grievances they wish to raise. However, I would appeal to the government to give consideration to placing this matter on the order paper at a very early date. As has been pointed out by the hon. member for Esquimalt-Saanich (Mr. Chatterton), and perhaps other hon. members, the summer vacation is now in effect for students who are attending high school and those who will be attending somewhat more advanced forums of education, and they and their parents have to plan whether they will be able to return to school in the fall term, which commences in most cases in early September. There is, therefore, some degree
3. 1963	1809
Suggested Extension of Family Allowance of urgency in this matter that does not apply to the same extent to other matters. Other matters which the government have on the order paper are very important, we all realize that; but many of them are very complex in their nature and require considerable study and, indeed, debate. This particular matter is one which I think every hon. member of this house would agree on and be prepared to pass very expeditiously.
As has already been pointed out, there is considerable urgency to this matter. In addition to what has already been said in that regard, I would point out-and this applies particularly to the province of Ontario-that because of the program brought into effect by the previous government, in co-operation with the provinces, technical and vocational schools have been built throughout Canada. As I say, a very large number of these are in Ontario. Many of these schools have been completed within the last few months, others will be completed within the next few weeks, and a great many students who might not otherwise have continued their education might, because of the construction of these new technical schools which are financed on a 75 per cent sharing basis by the federal government and 25 per cent by the provinces, decide to further their education. They would not be able to do this if the matter were delayed. For this reason, together with the other reasons advanced, I think special consideration should be given to placing this matter on the order paper as soon as is convenient. We have all these fine, new schools in various parts of Canada, and particularly in my own province, and it would be a shame if they were not used to full advantage. We would be just wasting good money if these splendid arrangements and facilities for providing students with technical training in order to face modern industry, with all its automation problems, could not be taken advantage of to the fullest extent as soon as possible.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I wonder whether the hon. member for Oxford (Mr. Nesbitt) would permit me to ask him a question.


Wallace Bickford (Wally) Nesbitt: Certainly.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Did the hon. gentleman make the same representations to the present Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Diefenbaker) when he was prime minister?


Wallace Bickford (Wally) Nesbitt: Mr. Speaker, I would be delighted to answer that question. The particular point I was raising was that these technical schools have only been completed in the last few months and because of these arrangements, and wanting to make full use
1810	HOUSE OF
Suggested Extension of Family Allowance of these new schools, I suggested that this matter has now a degree of urgency that perhaps it did not have before. I might say that I have always advocated this particular measure.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Is the hon. gentleman not aware that many technical and vocational schools have been built in Ontario since he and I were a lot younger than we are now?


Wallace Bickford (Wally) Nesbitt: Of course there are; but now there are more, and with better facilities.
(Translation):


Mr.   Jean-Louis@: Mr. Speaker, at the risk of having my colleagues applaud, I wish to say from the outset that I have but a few remarks to make concerning this issue.
Our active contribution to a debate on family allowances will be readily understandable to anyone who is familiar with the policies we have advocated for the past several years. In fact, everybody knows that we are in favour of legislation which will give greater security and which will distribute increased purchasing power among Canadian consumers. Now, we sincerely believe that one of the best ways to achieve this would be precisely to pay family allowances which would be appropriate to the people's needs and which would be adjustable according to any change in the cost of living. I feel that the adjustment of family allowances would be one of the best means the government could take and it would solve once and for all the famous problem of family allowances. Besides, such social security measure would not be any more the reason or the ground, admitted or not, during an election campaign for an auction to the benefit of the voters.
Mr. Speaker, I fully realize that during the debate before the adoption of this measure concerning the family allowances in 1944, the Liberal government at that time had good intentions towards the Canadian people. I am pleased to congratulate it for passing that measure which certainly was very profitable to the Canadian people but I wonder if the Liberals of 1944 were not more generous than their colleagues of 1963 and if the fact that we are asking for an adjustment in the family allowance rate should not be enough to make the Liberals of 1963 ponder the matter and look back and study the action of their predecessors, in 1944, so as to be as generous as they were.


Mr. Speaker, everyone agrees that the cost of living has increased substantially and even doubled since 1944. And yet, family allowances have not followed closely that increase in the cost of living.
The other day, one of our colleagues, the hon. member for Charlevoix (Mr. Belanger) moved a resolution asking the government to study the problem of family allowances and the adjustment we have been demanding for many years.
As expected, Mr. Speaker, that resolution was buried under a shower of kind words and six o'clock came before we had reached a decision. Seeing how our notice of motion was being cremated, many members of Social Credit who were in the house preferred to withdraw. In fact, that is why at one time it was found that there was not a quorum in the house. Mr. Speaker, if we withdrew it was merely because we found it too painful to attend the burial of a measure which, we felt, was of the greatest importance.
A few minutes ago, I listened to the Acting Prime Minister (Mr. Chevrier) reiterate his promise, or rather his party's promise to extend family allowances to children of 21 who are still attending school. I was most happy to hear that and I will take special pain to remember this formal promise he made during the election campaign and which he repeated again in the house.
In view of the limited means we have at our disposal here, I should like to give a piece of advice to government members. In my opinion, the best way for them to be forgiven for the unfortunate taxes which were levied in the budget would be to extend family allowances immediately since that would give a certain compensation to the Canadian taxpayer.
Mr. Speaker, may I also say that I have confidence in the Minister of National Health and Welfare (Miss LaMarsh), that charming lady, who will certainly be moved by the needs of our children for whom we cannot even get milk any more, one of the essential elements of life. Consequently, I appeal to her heart and feminine generosity to influence the government favourably so that we may very soon pass without debate, it is my conviction, legislation that would at last enable our children to get what they need, while increasing the purchasing power the people need at present.


Hon. Theogene Ricard (St. Hyacinlhe-Bagot):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to take part

briefly in this debate raised by my hon. friend from Nicolet-Yamaska (Mr. Vincent). First of all, I would like to congratulate him for having raised this grievance in such an efficient way and also for taking the first opportunity to remind the government in office of the measure it promised to carry out upon taking office.
Evidently, it is not surprising to see our friends opposite change their minds and try with eloquence and by all possible means to mask their impossibility to fulfil their electoral promises.
They have to resort to very ancient history to justify their present attitude. The best they can do, is to remind us of the words spoken here, in days of old, by one of our former colleagues, and pretend that these words have been endorsed by all the members of the Conservative party.
According to the hon. members opposite, the Conservative party has done nothing at all in the realm of social security during the six years it remained in power.
However, Mr. Speaker, hard facts speak louder than the allegations of our Liberal friends, and point in the opposite direction.
In the field of family allowances, during the fiscal year 1956-1957, the Liberals spent a total sum of $398 million, while under the Conservatives, family allowances in 19621963 amounted to $536 million, which represents an increase of 35 per cent.
Mr. Speaker, this is the way the government to which I have had the honour to belong met its obligations concerning family allowances.
May I add, Mr. Speaker, that we have adopted many other social measures by which Canadians have benefited. For instance, we have increased old age pensions as well as pensions to the blind, to the handicapped persons, and we have noticeably increased and improved hospital grants.


Mr. Jean-Pierre Cote (Longueuil):: Mr. Speaker, would the hon. member allow a question?


J.-H.-Théogène Ricard: Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member would obligingly wait until I am through with my remarks, I will be pleased to answer his question.
For 38 years, our predecessors promised hospital insurance and it took us, Conservatives, only a few years to put such a scheme into effect.
3, 1963	1811
Suggested Extension of Family Allowance
I realize that hon. gentlemen opposite and especially the Minister of National Health and Welfare (Miss LaMarsh) do not like me to mention those facts, but 1 am just following the example set by the Minister of Justice (Mr. Chevrier) a few minutes ago. It would seem that our hon. friends opposite can say just about anything while we must let them have their say and put on the record statements of all kinds concerning all possible topics, even if this debate is limited to a very definite issue.
If I were in the shoes of the Minister of National Health and Welfare (Miss La-Marsh), perhaps I would have the same feelings as the hon. lady. However, I would ask her to show a little more consideration to us so that we may reply to all those things our friends are putting on the record.
Since the hon. Minister of Justice led us in this field of election promises, I wish to point out to the house the fact that during the election campaign of 1957 and those in 1958, 1962 and 1963, the friends of the Liberal candidates both in my riding and others, in the province of Quebec and also throughout the country, went through rural areas to say that should a Conservative government come to office Canadians would lose their family allowances.


Mr. Plourde:: They have not been increased though.


J.-H.-Théogène Ricard: No, and if we are waiting for Social Crediters who are always voting with the government after criticizing it, we will have a long wait. The hon. member who interrupted me could do much better if he remained in his place and kept quiet because he is highly vulnerable.
Mr. Speaker, I would also like to tell the house why in the few years we have been in office we have not increased family allowances as we would have liked to. Our friends opposite should not worry. When we took over in 1957, there was a lot to do in the field of social security and we tackled the most urgent problems. For the year 1962, we had on our agenda something concerning family allowances. But with the help of the Social Crediters, we were voted down and could not carry out our project.


Lucien Plourde: It took too long.


J.-H.-Théogène Ricard: I could say that some sales were made in a much shorter time.
Mr. Speaker, let me point out also that interjections coming from the Social Credit
1812	HOUSE OF
Suggested Extension of Family Allowance corner are made by hon. members who are firmly rooted in their seats and who would have the opportunity to stand up and make all the remarks they wish.
As far as social security is concerned, the Conservative government, as I said a while ago, is certainly entitled to be proud of what was accomplished. Under the administration which preceded us, $815 million were paid out to Canadians under health and welfare, while under the government headed by the Right Hon. Mr. Diefenbaker, it is $1.4 billion which were paid out, that is an increase of 72 per cent.
Mr. Speaker, before blaming us for not having, during the six years in which the Diefenbaker government was in power, changed, remedied and corrected everything which the years of inertia of the Liberal party had left adrift, hon. members opposite should rather consider the good work we have accomplished, follow in our footsteps and heed the good example we gave, not only to the party now in power, but also to the two other smaller parties in the opposition.


Joseph Julien Jean-Pierre Côté: Would the hon. member allow a question?


J.-H.-Théogène Ricard: Yes.


Joseph Julien Jean-Pierre Côté: You just spoke of an increase from 324 to 530 odd million with regard to the payment of family allowances- which is the difference between the years 1957 and 1962. Is that increase due to a higher rate of family allowances or only to the greater number of children in this country?


J.-H.-Théogène Ricard: If the hon. member had followed what I said, he would not have taken the trouble to ask such a question, because I never implied what he apparently wants to infer.
(Text):


Mr. E. Nasserden (Rosthern):: Mr. Speaker, I had not intended to take part in this debate, but after the remarks made by the Acting Prime Minister (Mr. Chevrier) I think some of the questions he raised should be dealt with.
First of all we heard him say that this matter was one of their promises which would be kept. I think all hon. members of this house and the people across the country will wonder whether it is one of the promises which will be "kept" until another election campaign is in sight before it is fulfilled.


During his remarks the charge was laid that there has been a delay in the business of this house. No one has been more guilty of that than the Secretary of State (Mr. Pickersgill), who has delayed business by his many interruptions in speeches of other hon. members, particularly those in the opposition.
The family allowance legislation is not before the house at this time. It is one of the unkept promises of the government today. The Acting Prime Minister asked us what we had done in the last six years with regard to this matter.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Nothing.


Edward Nasserden: He sought to point out that particularly the hon. members from the province of Quebec had failed to make an impression on the government of which the members of our party were proud to be a part. We did not make any pledge to the Canadian people until the recent election campaign to provide for students between 16 and 18 years of age attending school by increasing the family allowance. Reference was made by the hon. member for Oxford (Mr. Nesbitt) to the fact that during the last six years there was placed on the statute books of this parliament legislation which enabled the provinces to build the greatest vocational and technical training educational facilities ever undertaken by any government in the world at any time.
I need not point out to any member of the government that when they were in power prior to 1957 this was one of the matters with which they had failed to deal. They failed to provide opportunities for young Canadians coming on to the labour market. They failed to provide any incentive to equip them to do their best and play an effective part in building Canada into a greater and more secure nation. That is one of the reasons why we have had to face the difficult problem of unemployment during the last several years. It is one of the reasons why this government faces the problem of unemployment, which has been aggravated by other actions taken since they came into office.
I will not deal with that because, after all, we are speaking to a particular grievance concerning the failure of the government to place on the statute books family allowance legislation. This is another significant factor pointing to the carelessness of this government that is in sharp contrast to the action taken by the administration led by the former prime minister, the present Leader of the

Opposition (Mr. Diefenbaker). During the last six years none was so vocal in the caucuses of our party as the hon. members from Quebec in bringing about these things. I might say in passing that we provided a vocational training program, residences for interns and nurses; we provided-


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, surely the hon. member is not going to be permitted, under the guise of taking part in a debate on family allowances, to deprive other hon. members of their opportunity to air grievances for the sake of putting on the records of this house stale Tory propaganda which has absolutely nothing to do with the motion before the house?


Edward Nasserden: On the point of order; I maintain it is no point of order, because all I was doing was answering the very matters raised by the Minister of Justice today. This is just another indication-maybe the minister was not here when the Minister of Justice was doing this-


John Whitney Pickersgill: On a question of privilege;
I was here at the time. I listened to the Minister of Justice (Mr. Chevrier) and he confined himself to talking about the negligence of the Tory party with regard to family allowances, and he did not talk about anything else. Family allowances, I maintain, is the only subject before us on this grievance. The hon. gentleman is being allowed to flout the rules and deprive the hon. member for Charlevoix (Mr. Belanger) of his right to speak on a genuine grievance; and I submit respectfully that he should not be allowed to continue in this manner.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Batten):: I think the hon. gentleman is well aware of the fact that this grievance is about family allowances, and I hope he stays with it as closely as possible.


Edward Nasserden: Thank you very much; I appreciate your ruling Mr. Speaker. I also appreciate the fact that there was an interruption that was not altogether in order either. During the last six years-this has something to do with family allowances and children-we provided an increased exemption of from $150 to $300 for those attending school, and also for those who were attending further education of from $250 to $500, which amounted to some $105 million which had to come out of the treasury of Canada. This careless government went around the country during the last election campaign, saying that one of the first things they would do would be to provide an increase in family allowances for those attending further classes. We have had the first 60 days and we have not heard
3, 1963	1813
Suggested Extension of Family Allowance one word from the government about their plans in this regard. I believe one hon. member on this side of the house asked the government whether they would indicate whether this legislation would be brought forward this year, next year, or during the third or fourth sessions of this parliament, but no answer was forthcoming. This is the sort of thing we have had to contend with in this session so far. It is an organized attempt to evade answers to questions about the intentions of the government on matters which they said in almost every case would be among the first steps which a Liberal government would take in order to give Canadians things they need. I say we should have a statement from this careless government with regard to its plans for family allowance legislation. It is important at this time when parents are making plans to put their children in institutions this fall to receive further education, and it will mean a great deal to our young Canadians today who are making plans for their future lives and at the same time deciding the future of our country.
(Translation):


Raymond Langlois: Mr. Speaker, I have just heard some hon. members opposite speak about family allowances.
I understand that children born this year, that is since April 8 last, are important now whereas when we advocated a raise in the family allowances paid for children born during the previous years, we were called back to order.
But now, the hon. member for St. Hya-cinthe-Bagot (Mr. Ricard) and the hon. member for Nicolet-Yamaska (Mr. Vincent) have just said that they are in favour of such a measure. It is a good thing to express such an opinion and to keep on repeating it often as they did before they sat on the government side in 1957. At the time, the slogan was "Follow John" and "Follow John" it was. The Conservatives were brought to power because of their promises to increase family allowances and old age pensions. Unfortunately, those promises were forgotten in the mirage, in the vision.
Last year a bill which was introduced by a member of our party was talked out during one of the hours set aside for consideration of private members' bills.
There are 6 million children under the age of 16 in Canada at present, that is one third of our total population. You will perhaps say that I am exaggerating and this is nothing but an example based on figures but if we allow $1 a day for every child, we
1814	HOUSE OF
Suggested Extension oj Family Allowance would get a total of $30 a month, that is $2 billion per year for 6 million children. Now, Canada's gross national product is $40 billion. If we were to give $1 a day for each child, that is for one third of the people of Canada, this would require an amount equal to one twentieth of the gross national product.
We would not have to apply poultices or to find remedies later on, because we would pay certain sums of money to heads of large families, who do not have enough money at the present time. We do not ask to give them $1 a day, but that the government look after the numerous families which are poverty-stricken and have no other income than family allowances. In most cases parents are too young to receive old age pensions and have no other alternative than to starve with their children.
It is a very commendable concession to give a tax exemption of $250 and $500 for children who are going to school. But what about the man who does not earn enough to pay tax? It does not help him very much, does it? And the man who has an exemption of $250, but does not earn enough to support his family, how can he send his children to university. Should you visit the restaurants in this city, you would meet there a good many students who, after putting in a full day's work at the university, spend the whole night washing dishes to earn the money necessary for their studies. You have been students in your time. Do you sincerely believe that you could have done well in the academic field, if you had worked half the night to help pay your fees?
A grant of $5 or $10 a month, or an extension allowing the students to finish their education, would surely help these young people much more than a 11 per cent tax on building materials. Our population is expanding, the cost of living has climbed steadily since 1944, but have family allowances increased accordingly? There has been a certain increase, but it has not caught up with ing the last budget.
For those reasons, I ask the government who, at the time they were in opposition clamoured for an increase in family allowances, especially during the last election campaign, to stop talking and to act instead in order to help Canadian families.
Thus you would ease much hardship in a country endowed with abundance. I am convinced that you will not then have to face the criticism that was directed at you following the last budget.
[Mr. Langlois.l


Paul Raymond Martineau: Mr. Speaker, I had not intended to participate in this debate, but I shall take the few minutes left to refer to some remarks made by the Minister of Justice, the Acting Prime Minister.
We, on this side of the house, were glad to hear the Acting Prime Minister say that the Liberal party, the present government, promised to extend family allowances to children from 16 to 18 years of age. He was very definite in his statement. He said: "It is a pledge, you shall have it, we realize that Canadian families need additional help."
I see that the Minister of National Health and Welfare (Miss LaMarsh) who assiduously seeks the truth, is closely following my remarks and I am sure that at the first opportunity, she will rise in the house to explain this flagrant omission on the part of the government.
Now, the Minister of Justice attempted afterwards to find excuses for his government's delay in carrying out that promise. He suggested as an excuse the fact that the order paper was already quite loaded. Well, Mr. Speaker, have you ever heard of such a paltry and senseless answer? The order paper is not a container which, once it is full, you cannot add to it. The order paper is only a list of the measures proposed to the house by the government. So, such an excuse does not stand up. Moreover, he admitted, in reply to the hon. member for Medicine Hat (Mr. H. A. Olson), that there is no administrative difficulty which could prevent them from putting that measure into force at this time, and he finally admitted that to adopt such a measure, you need funds and that the Minister of Finance has to find necessary revenues, that there is a certain priority in those matters.
Now, if that is the case, I say that it was the Liberal party's responsibility, during the last election campaign, a few months ago, to honestly tell the Canadian people: "We shall give that extended coverage of family allowances if we have the money and when we are good and ready."
But that was not the case, the Liberal party's undertaking was definite. They are untrue to their undertakings when they delay such necessary action requested by the whole Canadian people.
(Text):


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Order. It being 5.45 o'clock in the afternoon it is my duty, pursuant to special order made on Thursday

last, to interrupt these proceedings and put forthwith the question on the motion before the house.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Lamoureux in the chair.
The estimates of the following departments were first taken up and entered for consideration:



[Stage Direction]
1. Departmental administration, $7,648,800.
[Stage Direction]
General administration-
1. Departmental administration including grants as detailed in the estimates and the expenses of the international labour conferences, $1,290,400.
[Stage Direction]
1. Departmental administration, $1,973,500.
[Stage Direction]
1. General administration including a grant of $2,000 to the Canadian good roads association, $10,695,000.
[Stage Direction]
General administration-
1. Departmental administration including fees for membership in the international organizations listed in the details of the estimates and $25,000 for grants to promote industrial design, $5,288,800.
[Stage Direction]
1. Departmental administration, $3,388,600.
Proceedings reported.
John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, it was not anticipated that there would be any further business for today, but there are just about 10 minutes available. I understand my hon. friend, the Minister of Defence Production is on his way to the chamber, and if the house felt inclined we could perhaps get one or two more clauses of that bill through between now and six o'clock. This would be of great convenience to the government if it could be done. On the other hand, I have to recognize that this was not announced as part of the business for today and I would not care to take hon. members by surprise and ask them to do anything they would not be inclined to do.
Now, the Minister of Defence Production is right here and as there are 10 minutes of valuable parliamentary time, if hon. gentlemen would agree to go back into committee on the bill it would suit the government very well.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Speaker, it is preferable to have notice in advance of what the business is.
Export and Import Permits Act


Paul Joseph James Martin: Oh, let us get on
with it.


Gordon Minto Churchill: And when the house is properly organized we have notice, as happened in the preceding years. I think, in view of the fact that the subject matter of the Defence Production Act, and especially clause 5, is controversial, it would not be very helpful. I believe the house leader should suggest something else with which we might deal at this time. I would suggest the Export and Import Permits Act, unless there is something unusual about that. My observation of it would lead me to believe it concerns only a change of date from 1963 to 1966 or something of that nature. We could proceed with that item.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I think that is a very constructive suggestion that the hon. gentleman has made. If the house would excuse the absence of the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Sharp) and permit me to proceed in his absence with the bill, especially if it is as simple as the hon. gentleman says it is, perhaps we could get through it by six o'clock. It would be the first item of legislation that this parliament has passed between May 16 and July 3. I would be only too happy-


Some hon. Members:: Do not talk it out.


John Whitney Pickersgill: -to give the hon. member for Winnipeg South Centre (Mr. Churchill) full credit for this. If the house is agreeable, I would move the second reading of this bill.



EXPORT AND IMPORT PERMITS ACT


John Whitney Pickersgill: the second reading of Bill No. S-3, to amend the Export and Import Permits Act.
He said: I will just confirm the fact, already pointed out to the house by the former minister of trade and commerce who has more experience in this matter than I have, that the substantive part of the bill reads:
This act shall expire on the 31st day of July, 1966.
This section formerly read:
This act shall expire on the 31st day of July, 1963.
I believe that the hon. gentleman, himself, was responsible for having the house adopt that amendment.

Atlantic Development Board Act


Gordon Minto Churchill: The reason I intend to support this bill, Mr. Speaker, is that it will do something for the economy of the country, which is sadly lagging at the present time. It is for this reason I suggested the measure be brought forward now.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Lamoureux in the chair.
Clause 1 agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported.
Mr. Deputy Speaker:: When shall the said bill be read a third time?


Stanley Howard Knowles: Now, by leave.


Mitchell William Sharp: the third reading of the bill.
Motion agreed to and bill read the third time and passed.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, we have had such excellent co-operation that I am going to ask the house, in the remaining five minutes, if we could complete the resolution stage of the Atlantic development bill. Then, we would have the bill before us for later consideration. I think there was really no serious objection to that, and it would be very helpful in showing some performance.


Gordon Minto Churchill: I think that the resolution stage would have passed last week had not the Secretary of State intervened with one of his partisan speeches. Under the circumstances, the hon. member for Victoria-Carle-ton (Mr. Flemming) thought that he should reply to those remarks. Perhaps he could do this just as well at the second reading stage, so we would be favourable to passing the resolution now.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I want to express real appreciation to the hon. member for Winnipeg South Centre and ask the Clerk to call the order quickly.



ATLANTIC DEVELOPMENT BOARD ACT


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Tuesday, June 18, consideration in committee of the following resolution-Mr. Pickersgill-Mr. Lamoureux in the chair:
[Stage Direction]
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to amend the Atlantic Development Board Act to increase the number of members of the Atlantic development hoard from five to eleven; to establish as a separate account in the consolidated revenue fund an Atlantic development fund to which shall be credited the sum of one hundred million dollars to be used for the purpose of financing or assisting in financing programs or projects that would contribute to the growth and development of the economy of the Atlantic region and for which satisfactory financing arrangements are not otherwise available; and to provide that the said act shall expire on the 24th day of January, 1969; and to provide further for certain changes in connection with the administration of the said act.
Resolution reported and concurred in.
Mr. Pickersgill thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. C-80, to amend the Atlantic Development Board Act.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.
John Whitney Pickersgill: Perhaps now we can have second reading of the economic council bill so that we could go into committee on that tomorrow.


Gordon Minto Churchill: I think it would be advisable, Mr. Speaker, to call it six o'clock and then, if the house leader will announce that the budget resolutions are going ahead tomorrow and Friday, we would be very pleased.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

John Whitney Pickersgill: I recognize, sir, that the hon. gentleman has an avid desire to debate the budget resolutions. However, I believe I will stick to the program that I announced at the end of last week for the next two days. The first item of business tomorrow will be the department of industry bill. This is in committee, so we would hope to have it completed fairly early in the day. Then, we would take the second reading of the Atlantic development board bill. The third item would be the economic council. If these three items should be completed before tomorrow evening and the house needed additional business for Friday, there would be no difficulty on the part of the government in providing it.


Gordon Minto Churchill: If we complete those items, I will suggest other business for the house as I did today.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I will be very grateful to the hon. gentleman.


[Stage Direction]
At six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[Stage Direction]
Thursday, July 4, 1983