1963-11-18

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. Howard: 1.	Since July 3, 1963, have any vacancies occurred on the board of directors of the Canadian World Exhibition Corporation?
2.	In filling such vacancies what consideration, if any, was given to the appointment of persons of native Indian ancestry?


Mr. Badanai:: 1. Three, Messrs. Paul Bien-venu, C. F. Carsley, and Harry E. Price.
2.	Messrs. Bienvenu, Carsley and Price were replaced respectively by His Excellency Mr. Pierre Dupuy, ambassador, Mr. Robert F. Shaw, professional engineer and business executive, and Hon. George Hees, former minister of trade and commerce. In filling these vacancies the government considered that the incumbents, on account of their past experience, were eminently suited to meet the requirements of their functions with the Canadian World Exhibition Corporation.


*WORLD FAIR SITE
Mr. Howard: 1.	What is to be the site of the Canadian world exhibition?
2.	When was the decision made to select this particular site, what is the authority therefor, and who made the said decision?


Hubert Badanai: 1. The site of the Canadian universal and international exhibition to be held in Montreal in 1967 will be on the island of Montreal and on or in the vicinity of lie Ste. Helene, He Ronde, lie Verte and lie Notre Dame.
2.	On March 28, 1963, and confirmed on May 12, 1963; an act to establish the Canadian World Exhibition Corporation as passed by the House of Commons on December 20, 1962; the Minister of Public Works in agreement with the city of Montreal and the government of the province of Quebec, and with the approval of the governor in council.


INTERDICTIONS UNDER LIQUOR ORDINANCE, N.W.T.
Mr. Rheaume: 1.	For each of the calendar years 1961, and 1962, how many persons in the N.W.T. were interdicted
under the provisions of the liquor ordinance of the N.W.T., or any other ordinance, act or regulation?
2.	Of the above, how many were interdicted in each year at the request or on the recommendation of (a) the R.C.M.P. (b) other federal or territorial officers?


Mr. Laing:: The commissioner of the Northwest Territories informs as follows;
1.	1961, 23; 1962, 8.
2.	(a) The R.C.M.P. advise as follows: 1961, 3; 1962, 1. (b) Territorial records do not provide this information; court records in Yellowknife indicate that five interdictions were made by the court after hearing recommendations from welfare officers during the period 1961-62.


WORLD FAIR PUBLICITY
Mr. Lalulippe: 1.	What agency will be responsible for publicity concerning the 1967 world fair at Montreal?
2.	What funds will be provided for such publicity?
3.	Does the government intend to ask advertising agencies to submit tenders for the account?
4.	Have special funds been provided to the Canadian tourist bureau in this regard and, if so. what is the amount of such funds?
5.	How much money from the publicity budget of the world fair will be spent in (a) the United States, (b) Europe, and (c) elsewhere?
6.	Will the civil service commission hold competitions for information and publicity officers in connection with the world fair?
7.	Will the information or publicity responsibility be that of the government or the world fair corporation?


Hubert Badanai: 1. The following agencies have been entrusted by the directors of the Canadian World Fair Corporation with the publicity for the fair in Canada: Cockfield Brown and Company Limited; Agence Cana-dienne de Publicite Limit^e; Desroches, Inkel, Poirier et Associes Inc.; Public and Industrial Relations Inc.; Monty Perger and Co. Inc.; McKim Advertising Limited; McConnell, Eastman and Company Limited; James Lovick and Co. Ltd.; Publicite Huot Limitde.
2.	Estimates are being prepared.
3.	The Canadian World Fair Corporation is responsible for the selection of the advertising agencies.
4.	That matter does not fall under the jurisdiction of the Canadian World Fair Corporation.
5.	Funds for promotion and public relations will be aUocated for use in (a) the United States, (b) Europe and (c) elsewhere following an investigation now under way to establish the possible number of visitors.

Questions
6.	Being a crown corporation, the Canadian World Fair Corporation does not come under the jurisdiction of the civil service commission.
7.	Information and publicity services will fall directly under the Canadian World Fair Corporation.



MEREDE BOUCHARD


[Stage Direction]
Question No. 1,503
Mr. Belanger:: 1.	Is Mr. Merede Bouchard, travelling salesman from St. Gregoire, Montmorency county, employed by the Department of Public Works?
2.	Has any money been spent by the department at the special request of this gentleman, and, if so, how much, and where, in the constituency of Charlevoix, was this money spent?


Hubert Badanai: 1. No.
2. No.



DREDGING OPERATIONS, PICTOU ISLAND, N.S.

Mr. MacEwan: Is it the intention of the government to carry out dredging operations at Pictou island, Nova Scotia, and, if so, when will this work be carried out?


Hubert Badanai: Yes; the work will be carried out during the 1964-65 fiscal year subject to the approval of funds by parliament.



TENDERS TOR RAILWAY MAINTENANCE, CAMP BORDEN

Mr. Madill: 1.	Has the government called for tenders for the maintenance of the government owned railway track in Camp Borden and, if so (a) were the tenders publicly advertised or were they called by invitation (b) did the terms of the tender call provide for (i) maintenance of road crossings (ii) snow removal at road crossings (iii) maintenance of culverts and drains (iv) weed killing (v) brush cutting (vi) fence maintenance?
2.	If the above items do not form part of the proposed contract, who will provide these services?
3.	What is the estimated cost of these services and were these services taken into consideration in the reply to question No. 956 when it was estimated that there would be an over-all saving of $3,049.16 annually?
Answer: 1. Yes, through the Toronto office of the Department of Defence Production,
(a)	by invitation, (b), (i), (ii), (iii), (iv), (v), (vi), No.
2.	As in the past, these services will be provided by 24 Wks Coy RCE.
3.	It is estimated these services cost $1,000 annually. They were not taken into consideration when the over-all saving of $3,049.16 was estimated since under the tender call the track maintenance crew was not and will not be responsible for these services.



POST OFFICE CONSTRUCTION, CADILLAC, QUE.

Mr. Caouelle: Was a contract awarded for the construction of a post office in Cadillac, constituency of Ville-neuve, and, if so (a) who were the tenderers (b) what was the amount of each tender (c) to whom was the contract awarded?


Hubert Badanai: No.
(a), (b) and (c)-N/A.



HOSTESSES EMPLOYED BY T.C.A.

Mr. Caouelle: How many air hostesses were employed by Trans-Canada Air Lines since June, 1962, and of these, how many were (a) English speaking (b) French speaking (c) fully bilingual?


Mr. Cantin:: The management of Trans-Canada Air Lines advise that the company has no employment category of "air hostess" but that there is a category of "cabin attendants" which include stewardesses and pursers. In this category since June, 1962, the number employed total 95, all of whom spoke and understood English. Of these 53 spoke and understood French and English.



PENSIONS TO FORMER MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT

Mr. Lalulippe: 1.	How many former members of parliament receive a pension pursuant to the Members of Parliament Retiring Allowances Act?
2.	What amount has the government spent for this pension plan since its inception?


Mr. Benson:: 1. 131 former members at present.
2. The following amounts have been credited by the Minister of Finance to the members of parliament retiring allowances account up to October 31, 1963:
In respect of current service under section 4(a) $721,760.58; in respect of prior service under section 4(b) $787,416.76; interest on balance to credit of account under section 4(c) $605,210.64.



NEW FEDERAL BUILDING, HALIFAX

Mr. Coates: Does the government intend to proceed with the proposed new federal building in Halifax on the site of the old Barrington street armouries and, if so, is it the intention of the government to name the building the Sir John Thompson building?


Hubert Badanai: Yes, during the next fiscal year subject to the approval of funds by parliament. It has been decided to name the

building in honour of Right Hon. Sir John Thompson, a former prime minister who was a native of Nova Scotia.



CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION COMPETITION

[Stage Direction]
63H-612
Mr. Macquarrie: 1.	How many applicants entered civil service competition 63H-612 for fruit and vegetable inspector?
2.	How many qualified as eligible for appointment?
3.	Where was the examination held?
4.	Who were the members of the examining board?


Mr. Pickersgill:: I have been given the following answer by the civil service commission:
1.	63.
2.	24.
3.	Oral examinations were held in Charlottetown on September 10, 11 and 12, Sum-merside on September 12 and 13, and O'Leary on September 13.
4.	Members of the examining board were as follows:
Charlottetown, September 10, 11 and 12:
F.	M. Deacon, civil service commission officer, Halifax district office; Jack Cutliffe, research officer, experimental farm, Charlottetown, P.E.I.; G. A. Harrison, district supervisor, Department of Agriculture, Charlottetown, P.E.I.
Summerside, September 12: F. M. Deacon, civil service commission officer, Halifax district office; J. I. G. Ross, supervising inspector, plant protection, Charlottetown, P.E.I.;
G.	A. Harrison, district supervisor, Department of Agriculture, Charlottetown, P.E.I.;
Summerside, September 13: F. M. Deacon, civil service commission officer, Halifax district office; J. I. G. Ross, supervising inspector, plant protection, Charlottetown, P.E.I.; A. L. Hardy, senior fruit and vegetable inspector, Summerside, P.E.I.
O'Leary, September 13: F. M. Deacon, civil service commission officer, Halifax district office; J. I. G. Ross, supervising inspector, plant protection, Charlottetown, P.E.I.; A. L. Hardy, senior fruit and vegetable inspector, Summerside, P.E.I.



N.H.A.  LOANS TO FAMILIES WITH INCOMES UNDER $3,000

Mr. Mather: 1.	What was the percentage of families borrowing under N.H.A. in 1962 in the income group below $3,000?
2.	What is the percentage of all Canadian families in that income category?
Answer: 1. 0.03 per cent.
2. Data for 1962 are not available. For 1961 the percentage for non-farm families was 22 per cent.
Questions



LEASE OF SPACE, FULLER BUILDING, OTTAWA

Mr. Macquarrie: 1.	Has the Department of Public Works entered into an agreement to lease or rent space in the Fuller building, Slater street, Ottawa?
2.	If so, how much and at what rate?
3.	For what purpose is the space intended?
4.	Were rates sought for alternative space?
5.	From what firms?
6.	What were their quoted rental rates per square foot?


Hubert Badanai: 1. It is understood that this question refers to the MacDonald building on Slater street in which case the answer is yes. A formal lease has not yet been executed although a commitment to enter into a lease has been made.
2.	96,420 sq. ft. at $384,000 per annum.
3.	To provide accommodation for part of the departments of defence production and industry by January, 1964.
4.	Yes, but there was no alternative which would have provided the space required at the time required.
5.	Answered by 4.
6.	Answered by 4.



DEEP SEA FACILITIES, PORT MOODY, B.C.

Mr. Douglas: Has the government any plans for the development of deep sea facilities at Port Moody and, if so, what are they, and has this information been made known to the municipal authorities?


Mr. Mcllrailh:: Plans for the development of harbour facilities at Port Moody will have to be considered in the plans for general development of Vancouver harbour which will be studied by the Vancouver harbour land use committee.



NORTH SHORE HARBOUR DEVELOPMENT, VANCOUVER

Mr. Douglas: 1.	Has the government any plans for the development of the north shore of Vancouver harbour and, if so, what are they, and has this information been made known to the local municipalities?
2.	Has consideration been given to the establishment of an independent board of Vancouver harbour commissioners and, if so, what is the result of such consideration?


George James McIlraith: 1. A Vancouver harbour land use committee has been formed for the purpose of setting up a long term plan for the optimum use of land and waterlots within the limits of Vancouver harbour. Such limits, of course, include the north shore. The committee's functions will be advisory and plans prepared by the committee will show, for the guidance of municipal, provincial and federal authorities and property owners within the limits of Vancouver harbour, a general type of use to be made of the area. The committee will consist of representatives

Questions
of municipal, provincial and federal authorities and business organizations having an interest in the matter.
2. As this relates to a matter of government policy any announcement will be made in the usual manner.



* INCREASED WELFARE PAYMENTS


Mr. Dinsdale: 1.	Has the government of Canada received representations from the government of Manitoba requesting that the old age assistance, blind and disabled persons allowance be brought into line with the recent $10 increase in old age security payments and, if so, what is the nature of the representation?
2.	What reply has been made to the government of Manitoba?


Mr. Haidasz:: 1. and 2. (a) Copies of the following resolution passed by the legislation of Manitoba on May 6, 1963, were received; that this house request the government to petition the federal government for an increase for old age and blind pensioners in the province from $65 on the basis of need to $75 per month or higher.
The Minister of National Health and Welfare replied to the hon. minister of welfare of Manitoba on May 27 referring to the announcements of welfare measures which the federal government would be submitting to parliament, and indicating that while she could not say at that time what consideration might be given to the two acts referred to in the resolution, provision for elderly and blind persons was a matter in which this government would always maintain a deep and sympathetic interest.
(b)	A letter dated September 4 was received from the Hon. Duff Roblin acknowledging a letter from the Minister of National Health and Welfare concerning the federal-provincial conference on the Canada pension plan. Mr. Roblin repeated that Manitoba was prepared to implement now its share of the associated increases that will necessarily have to be made in old age assistance, blind and disability pension programs.
Since this was a letter of acknowledgment and since the matter was to be discussed in relation to the Canada pension plan at the conference a few days later, no reply was made.
(c)	A telegram was received on October 31 from the hon. the minister of welfare of Manitoba asking consideration of the implementation of changes necessary for an immediate increase of $10 per month in old age assistance, blind and disabled allowances.
The Minister of National Health and Welfare replied on November 1 indicating that

this is one of the matters which will be discussed at the federal-provincial conference later this month.



* CHANNEL DREDGING, LAKE WINNIPEGOSIS

Mr. Forbes: What has been the total cost of clearing channels by dredging on lake Winnipegosis for each of the years 1956 to 1963 inclusive?


Hubert Badanai: The total operating costs to maintain dredging services on lake Winnipegosis from 1956-1963 have been as follows: 1956-57, $41,187; 1957-58, $36,462; 1958-59, $41,233; 1959-60, $39,247; 1960-61, $54,122; 1961-62, $47,974; 1962-63, $47,393.



BREAKWATER REPAIRS, WEST ARICHAT, N.S.

Mr. Muir (Cape Breton North and Victoria): 1.	How much money has been expended on repairs to the breakwater at West Arichat, Richmond county, N.S., within the last month?
2.	Who was in charge of the job?
3.	What were the names of all the employees and what remuneration was received by each one?


Hubert Badanai: 1. Approximately $1,900.
2.	A contract was awarded to Curtis Babin, Arichat, N.S. for breakwater repairs at $1,900. And the work, which has now been completed was under the over-all supervision of the district engineer for the Department of Public Works at Halifax, N.S.
3.	All employees were hired by the contractor and the department does not have a list of their names.



NORTHUMBERLAND STRAITS TEST BORINGS

Mr. MacLean (Queens): 1.	Have Hersey Soil Investigations Limited completed their test borings in Northumberland strait, at the site of the proposed causeway?
2.	Has any report been made to the government on the result of these tests?
3.	If such a report has been made, does it support the conclusion that the building of a structure carrying a highway across Northumberland strait is feasible from an engineering standpoint?


Hubert Badanai: 1. Yes, Wamock Hersey Soil Investigations Limited has completed the
1963	test drilling program. Whether or not additional test borings will be required in
1964	will depend upon design development during the winter.
2.	No, the drill cores obtained by the drilling are still being analysed.
3.	Not applicable.



GRAIN EXPORTS THROUGH CHURCHILL

Mr. Simpson: How many bushels of grain were exported through the port of Churchill in each year since 1946?

Answer: Ocean shipments of wheat from Churchill, season of navigation 1946-63.
Year	Shipments1 bushels
1946	2,929,000
1947	4,976,000
1948	5,314,000
1949	5,528,000
1950	6,768,000
1951	7,545,000
1952	8,585,000
1953	10,784,000
1954	12,485,000
1955	13,078,000
1956	16,250,000
1957	16,577,000
1958	19,599,000
1959	21,787,000
1960	19,585,000
1961	19,351,000
1962	21,525,000
1963	22,864,000
1 To nearest thousand bushels.
monument to patriots of 1837

Question No. 1,660-Mr. Pigeon:
Does the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources, through the historic sites and monuments board of Canada, intend to build a monument to the memory of the patriots of 1837, either in St. Denis or St. Charles on the Richelieu river?

Answer: After having reviewed the various proposals submitted to the historic sites and monuments board of Canada in the last few years, I must say that no general proposal has been submitted to the board with a view to having erected a monument to the memory of the patriots of 1837, and that neither the department nor the board contemplates for the time being the possibility of erecting such a monument.
However, if the hon. member wants to submit a proposal to that effect, I shall be pleased to pass it on to the board asking them to advise me of their views on that matter.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. Rheaume: 1.	For each of the fiscal years from 1953-54 to 1983-64, what were the number of (a) low cost houses (b) welfare houses, built by government in the Northwest Territories for (i) Eskimos (ii) Indians (iii) others?
2.	What is the number of houses in each of category (a) and (b) above and for groups (i), (ii), and (iii) above planned for each of the fiscal years 1964-65 and 1965-66?
Return tabled.
Inquiries of the Ministry


EMPLOYMENT OF DISABLED PERSONS
Mr. Scott: 1.	Has the government received representations asking it to establish a quota requiring employers to hire a certain percentage of disabled persons and, if so (a) from whom were such representations received (b) when were they received (c) briefly, what was the nature of these representations, and (d) what was the government's response to them?
2.	What types of financial assistance does the government supply in the field of rehabilitation, and what were the totals for 1961 and 1962?
3.	Has the government received requests for such financial assistance to be increased and, if so, from whom were such requests received?
Return tabled.



CONSTRUCTION GRANTS FOR FISHING


Mr. Bechard: 1.	Does the government grant any aid for the construction of fishing vessels with a view to the expansion and modernization of the fishing industry in Canada and, if so, what amounts were spent from January 1, 1963 to date (a) in the province of Quebec (b) in the Paspebiac shipyard, Paspebiac, Bonaventure county?
2.	What amounts are included in the estimates for fisheries in the province of Quebec?
Return tabled.



ROYAL CANADIAN NAVY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Defence concerning a report over radio station CJCH, Halifax, this morning to the effect the government plans to reduce the number of personnel on certain types of destroyer escorts of the St. Laurent class. What has the minister to say in this regard?


Hon. Paul Hellyer (Minister of National Defence):: I did not see the report, Mr. Speaker, so I am not able to comment upon it. The only thing that comes to mind is that when the St. Laurent class are converted to helicopter deck-type escorts, I think the complement is reduced. The report may have had reference to that.



REPORTED DIFFICULTIES RESPECTING


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Bert Leboe (Cariboo):: In the absence of the Minister of Agriculture perhaps I might ask this question of the Minister of Finance, because it might involve his department as well. My question is related to an article in the Yonkers Herald Statesman in

Inquiries of the Ministry which it is alleged that Canada's wheat sales to red China are turning sour. The article goes on to say that there are behind the scenes manoeuvres to get money from the world bank or other sources to lend to communist China in order to pay for this wheat. I wonder if the minister would like to take the question as notice, or possibly give an answer now.


Hon. Walter L. Gordon (Minister of Finance):: I think perhaps I will take the question as notice. In the meantime I should like to say that any suggestion that there is anything that might interfere with the wheat sales to China would come as a great surprise to all of us on this side.



LOADED BOX CARS REPORTED LEFT ON SIDING

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. S. J. Korchinski (Mackenzie):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Transport, or in his absence for the Minister of Trade and Commerce; but since apparently he is absent also I will ask it of the Prime Minister and request him to direct it to the proper department. My question is related to the situation in which box cars Nos. CN 476732 and CN 507276 have been lying on a siding for 10 days fully loaded while there is an apparent shortage of box cars. Why must this situation prevail when the maximum utilization of box cars is essential, and when it results in lower quotas in many areas, as I have repeatedly pointed out?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. This is a question for the order paper.



PUBLIC SERVICE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Robert Muir (Cape Breton North and Victoria):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Finance. Would the minister confirm or deny reports that Mr. James Coyne, former governor of the Bank of Canada, has commenced receiving a pension of $25,000 a year?


Walter Lockhart Gordon: Mr. Speaker, at a meeting of the board of directors of the Bank of Canada on July 22, 1961 the operation of the provision in the bank's pension fund bylaw affecting the governor's pension was suspended pending review. Following the review the suspension was terminated. Mr. Coyne has


been in receipt of a pension of $25,000 a year effective from the date of his retirement.



PRESENCE IN GALLERY OF LINDSAY COLLEGIATE STUDENTS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Charles Lamb (Victoria (Ont.)):: Mr. Speaker, as this is a very dull day I want to bring a little sunshine into the house and say that I have 40 honors students of the Lindsay collegiate sitting up in the ladies' gallery.



EXTERNAL AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. W. B. Nesbitt (Oxford):: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs, but in his absence perhaps I could direct it to the right hon. Prime Minister. Has the government yet received any information as to the exact date of trial of the two Canadians presently under confinement in Cuba?


Right Hon. L. B. Pearson (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, the Department of External Affairs learned this morning from our embassy that the text of the formal charges to be laid against the two Canadians would be received by them from the Cuban authorities in Havana this afternoon. We expect to have further information when that is received, and I hope to be able to make a statement to the house on the matter tomorrow.


TRANS-CANADA HIGHWAY BRITISH COLUMBIA-INQUIRY AS TO SECOND HIGHWAY
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. W. Herridge (Kooienay Wesi):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Public Works that concerns Canadians from the Atlantic to the Pacific. Is the government giving active consideration to the co-operative construction of a second trans-Canada highway which will follow the Yel-lowhead pass route in British Columbia, and giving this consideration with a view to early announcement of this policy?


Hon. J. P. Deschalelets (Minister of Public Works):: Mr. Speaker, some time after the federal-provincial conference has taken place we will be in a position to make a statement concerning government policy in relation to the new highways program.


NATIONAL DEFENCE
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Stanley Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question either to the Prime Minister or to the Minister of National Defence. Has the government any comment to make on the report from Europe to the effect that the French are offering atomic warheads to the members of the defence committee over there at the present time?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Mr. Speaker, I read the dispatch with considerable interest. It was the first time this had come to my attention.


TRANSPORT
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. L. J. Pigeon (Jolietie-L'Assomption-Montcalm):: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of Public Works?
Following the brief he received from the committee for the canalization of the Back river and the Mille lies river, does the Minister of Public Works intend to have his engineers make a detailed study to find out if it is possible to canalize these two rivers?


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Mr. Speaker, the matter is under study.


DOMINION-PROVINCIAL RELATIONS NOVA SCOTIA  PROTEST RESPECTING OFF-SHORE MINERAL RIGHTS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Robert C. Coates (Cumberland):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Prime Minister. Is the Prime Minister now able to answer my question of Thursday last on government policy relating to off-shore mineral rights?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker the hon. member for Cumberland asked whether I would be able to inform the house of the federal government's policy regarding off-shore mineral rights as a result of the protest being lodged by the government of Nova Scotia relating to the granting of a licence to the Shell Oil Company for gas and oil exploration off the Nova Scotia coast.
I am not aware that the government of Nova Scotia has made any protest to this
Inquiries of the Ministry government-none has come to my attention- on this question of exploration rights granted to the Shell Oil Company. In any event, it is the policy of this government to encourage exploration for oil and gas so as to bring about the most expeditious development of the natural resources of our country.
If the hon. member intends to raise a legal question regarding this matter, I would advise him that the oil and gas exploratory permits now being issued to the Shell Oil Company off the Nova Scotia coast are issued under authority of the Canada oil and gas regulations, P.C. 1960-474 of April 13, 1960, and P.C. 1961-797 of June 6, 1961, as amended, which regulations were made pursuant to the Public Lands Grants Act.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, in connection with the statement just made by the Prime Minister, and in view of the fact that there is this dispute not only in Nova Scotia but also in British Columbia arising out of the claims of the provinces to have priority over the federal government, and the view of the federal government that they have the right to grant exploratory licenses in respect of off-shore exploration for minerals, oil and the like, has the government given any consideration to determining this question by way of a submission to the Supreme Court of Canada for a decision as to whether this matter falls exclusively within the ambit of the federal authority or whether it is one of joint responsibility and control?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, this matter has been under consideration, and in a day or two perhaps I will be in a position to make a more extended reply to the question of my right hon. friend.


LOTTERIES
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Barry Mather (New Westminster):: Mr. Speaker, I wonder whether the Minister of Justice or the Prime Minister is in a position today to reply to my question of last Friday as to what, if any, consideration the cabinet is giving to conferring on the provinces the legal right to conduct sweepstakes.


Hon. Lionel Chevrier (Minister of Justice):: Mr. Speaker, I did see the hon. member's question in Hansard when I returned. The answer is this. Since this matter is on the agenda for discussion at the dominion-provincial conference which opens a week from today, I think it would be rather premature on my part to make any statement. I think

Inquiries of the Ministry what should be done by the government is to listen to whatever representations the provinces have to make in that respect, and determine the policy afterward.


POST OFFICE DEPARTMENT
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. George Muir (Lisgar):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to address a question to the Postmaster General. In view of the fact that we have a number of young Canadians in the gallery, and there are thousands of others across the country for whom the 4-H clubs are rendering a great service, would the Postmaster General reconsider his refusal to have a stamp issued commemorating the fiftieth anniversary of the founding of that organization?


Hon. Azellus Denis (Postmaster General):: With great pleasure, Mr. Speaker.


CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of Justice? Could the minister tell the house whether the R.C.M.P. has completed its investigation at the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation concerning an alleged $30,000 fraud?


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, I wish to tell the hon. member, who was kind enough to give me notice of that question, that the R.C.M.P. informed me that they are not aware of such a theft.
In any case, if one has been committed the R.C.M.P. will surely let me know, but on the date I was given notice of the question, no report had been received.


CANADA ELECTIONS ACT
[Stage Direction]
21 TO 18
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Reid Scoff (Danforih):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Prime Minister. It arises out of the report in the newspapers of this morning that the right hon. gentleman expects to introduce legislation reducing the voting age from 21 to 18. I have such a measure standing in my name, being Bill


No. C-60. I wondered whether the right hon. gentleman would consent to having this transferred to a government order, thereby saving the time and trouble of our overworked staff in preparing legislation.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Well, Mr. Speaker, this party has been committed to the reduction of the voting age to 18 years of age for some years, and we are anxious to see that it is done as quickly as possible.


Reid Scott: A supplementary question. I merely wanted to bring this to the attention of the Prime Minister so these people could vote at the election which Mr. Keith Davey is going to call soon.



IMMIGRATION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Eldon M. Woolliams (Bow River):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration. Did his officials at the ports of entry between Canada and the United States question the legality or propriety of Banks leaving Canada for the U.S.A. while charges were pending and he was out on cash bail?


Hon. Guy Favreau (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration):: Well, Mr. Speaker, I am not in a position to answer this question, but I will inquire.



EXTERNAL AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. J. R. Garland (Minister of National Revenue):: Mr. Speaker, on Thursday last the hon. member for Port Arthur posed to me a question supplementary to one he had directed to the Secretary of State for External Affairs. I am pleased to tell him that I have had an opportunity to inquire in our department and the answer to the question is no.


PENSIONS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of National Health and Welfare. Has the minister received a letter from the minister of welfare of the province of Manitoba asking her to correct the impression

which she gave in an answer to a question of mine on November 7, when she was unable to say with certainty whether Manitoba had offered to participate in increases in the payments made under the various joint pension plans? In the light of the information given to the house today by her parliamentary secretary in answer to starred question No. 1,633, can she now make a definite statement on this matter?


Hon. Judy V. LaMarsh (Minister of National Health and Welfare):: Mr. Speaker, I did receive such a letter. When my hon. friend asked me whether I could say which provinces had indicated they would take part in these programs I had not had any notice and could not remember, so I answered no. Then my hon. friend also asked me specifically with reference to Manitoba whether I could remember its decision, I could not remember what attitude Manitoba had expressed, and so I said I could not answer with certainty.
Apparently this has been misconstrued in Manitoba as indicating that the Manitoba government had taken a position which in fact they had not taken, namely that they would not wish to participate in these cost sharing programs. I am pleased to have this opportunity, and I thank my hon. friend for providing it, to correct this impression, and set the record straight.


INQUIRY OF THE MINISTRY
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. G. H. Aiken (Parry Sound-Muskoka):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a question of the Prime Minister. Would the Prime Minister straighten out Mr. Keith Davey as to who has been calling the seemingly endless supply motions and confidence votes?


TECHNICAL AND VOCATIONAL TRAINING ASSISTANCE ACT
Hon. A. J. MacEachen (Minister of Labour) moved: the second reading of Bill No. C-105, to amend the Technical and Vocational Training Assistance Act.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Speaker, the minister or his parliamentary secretary is supposed to reply to the questions we addressed last week, and we hope to have the answers.


Mr. J. A. Byrne (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Labour):: Mr. Speaker, on the resolution stage a number of questions were posed by hon. members on the opposite side of the house, and a number of statements were made. I wish to thank hon. members
Vocational Training Assistance Act for their contributions, and for their cooperation in getting the resolution through in what can be termed markedly short order.
The hon. member for Ontario, the former minister of labour, is a man for whom I have great admiration. He and I are probably among those members least qualified to be ministers of education; our alma mater would seem to be the school of hard knocks, and for this reason I have great affinity for the hon. member. I have been going through the Parliamentary Guide, and I notice that we have both received a great deal of our education since we found it necessary to make our own way in life.
However, this need not deter me from commenting on some of the points he raised. The hon. member took exception to my statement that this was an entirely new measure. If he will examine what I said he will find I was referring to a statement made by the Minister of Labour on June 10, at which time he put forward what he termed a new manpower development program. Some of it was entirely new, and other parts of it constituted an extension of the program already in existence.
The hon. gentleman took exception to the fact that the bill introduced in the previous session of parliament by himself with respect to manpower adjustment had not been revised. If that criticism were valid I think it could equally be said that it was unnecessary in 1961 for the government of that day to have brought in the technical and vocational training act because there was already in existence, as of 1942, the Vocational Training Co-ordination Act. There is not a great deal of difference between the two acts, and amendment would have sufficed. I am sure the hon. member will feel upon reflection that the introduction of amendments at this time to the technical and vocational training act is quite in order.
Aside from that, the hon. member made a constructive contribution, as did the hon. member for Medicine Hat, the hon. member for Kindersley, and the hon. member for Vancouver-Kingsway. The hon. member for Kindersley has obviously had a great deal of experience in the field of education and vocational training.
The hon. member for Quebec East made some statements, however, which I believe are not valid. If we reread them we will realize that the hon. member was speaking of the past and of the circumstances which prevailed before these amendments were introduced. He referred to the minister of youth for Quebec as having made certain statements suggesting that Quebec was not receiving its share under this program, and that the program discriminated against Quebec. Well, this

Vocational Training Assistance Act has no relation whatever to the facts. Mr. Gerin Lajoie, who is minister of youth in the province of Quebec, is also chairman of the provincial ministers who have met on occasion and who, at their most recent meeting, drafted a statement to the federal Minister of Labour asking specifically for the amendments which are contained in his measure. I should like to quote from that brief in order to demonstrate that this is a fact. The second last paragraph of the brief presented to the Minister of Labour by this committee says:
For the reasons here briefly set forth, we now believe that the national interest makes it imperative that the federal technical and vocational training act be amended so that the federal government's contribution in respect of capital expenditures incurred by the provinces be calculated at 75 per cent of all such expenditure made prior to the end of the agreement, the 31st March, 1967.
That is the essence of the amendments now before us though there are, of course, several other provisions having to do with the training aspects of the program.
I have a brief prepared statement which I should like to read to the house since hon. members now have the bill before them. I might say that I am unable to answer the question raised by the hon. member for Joliette-L'Assomption-Montcalm. I have not had an opportunity to discuss the matter he raised, but perhaps tomorrow on the orders of the day he may be able to have his question answered by putting it directly to the minister concerned.
The provisions of Bill No. C-105 reflect in detail the proposals announced in the house by the minister on June 10 and explained in more detail when the resolution was introduced on October 2. These measures are designed to further strengthen the federal-provincial program of manpower development and training, having particular application to the provision of suitable and adequate training facilities, the training of the unemployed, and encouraging the training of adult employed workers so they may adjust to changing employment conditions.
The first section of this bill provides that in respect of the costs incurred by a province in providing training allowances for unemployed persons, the maximum contribution payable by Canada be increased from 75 per cent to 90 per cent. As the minister pointed out on June 10, 1963 when he drew attention to the major feature of the government's employment and manpower development program, there was at that time the anomaly of high unemployment and a shortage of skills.
Last year training was provided by the provinces for 38,439 unemployed persons,


with the federal government contributing 75 per cent of both training costs and living allowances. This was an increase over the previous year's enrolment of approximately 43 per cent, but the program must be increased beyond last year's enrolment if it is to provide for those unemployed who would benefit from training. By increasing the federal contribution to living allowances while maintaining the 75 per cent contribution to direct training costs the provinces will be able to release more funds to support the additional training required. This program for the training of the unemployed is extremely important and must be expanded, but in the longer range it is equally important to provide upgrading and retraining programs for those employed persons who are in danger of becoming unemployed in the future. This then is the purpose of the second amendment.
In subsection 2 of section 1 provision is made for the federal government to contribute an additional 25 per cent of provincial costs in respect of certain programs for employed adults. The purpose of this amendment is to stimulate training in industry beyond the short range production requirements which heretofore have been the general pattern. This extra incentive will be directed to the longer range programs including upgrading of the general background of employed workers in mathematics, science and communications skills, and to the long term, organized development of skilled craftsmen through apprenticeship. It will also provide for the retraining of workers who are in imminent danger of lay-off because of technological changes in industry. It is not the intention of the government to relieve industry of its traditional responsibility for training its employees to meet production requirements, but rather to stimulate provinces to take a more active part in participating with and encouraging industry to undertake training programs that are in the national interest.
Although there has been expansion of the training facilities in excess of 144,000 student places, the development has been uneven among the provinces. Some were in a position to take very limited advantage of the provisions of the legislation. These variations ranged from $51 per capita in the 15-19 age group in Quebec to $480 in Newfoundland. The experience has shown that in spite of the increase in student places up to the present, the response on the part of the Canadian people has been such that even further increases are needed, especially in the provinces where lesser amounts have been claimed.

Section 2 of Bill No. C-105 provides for an extension of the period during which contributions payable by Canada for capital expenditures incurred by the provinces on technical and vocational training facilities will be 75 per cent of provincial government expenditure. The contribution will be continued at this level in each province until the $480 has been contributed on behalf of each person in the 15-19 age group or until March 31, 1967, whichever is earlier. After this time the federal contribution will be reduced to 50 per cent of provincial expenditures. This will allow provinces to share in the provisions for capital facilities to an equal extent, and will at the same time give more time to put these facilities in place. On this basis the amount which would be available to each province before the rate of contribution is reduced to 50 per cent of provincial expenditures would be as follows:
Estimated Federal Contribution If All Provinces Reached $480 Maximum
Province	Total federal contribution 1961-1967 $(000)
Newfoundland	21,055
Prince Edward Island	4,164
Nova Scotia	30,860
New Brunswick	25,708
Quebec	224,547
Ontario	209,176
Manitoba	24,016
Saskatchewan	35,003
Alberta	48,561
British Columbia	54,118
Section 3 provides for an increase in membership of the national technical and vocational training advisory council from 23 to 28 members. This increase in membership is intended to give greater representation on the council to representatives from industry, labour and other interested groups. Subsection 2 of section 3 of the bill provides for an honorarium for the chairman of this council. Because of the growing requirements on council for consideration of matters of national concern, the demands on the chairman are growing. It is therefore proposed to provide an honorarium.
After close study of the total manpower training needs the government feels that these amendments to the Technical and Vocational Training Assistance Act are required to meet adequately the training needs of Canada. I ask the house for a continuation of the co-operation already extended, and because the bill is so vital in the interests of the training of our youth and in the interests of all Canada, I hope it will be passed by the house as expeditiously as possible.


Some hon. Members:: Question.
Vocational Training Assistance Act


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Speaker, in rising to speak I hear some of my colleagues opposite shouting "question". When we were at the resolution stage we were urged not to speak then in order to save time, and to leave our comments for second reading of the bill. I might tell some of my hon. friends opposite who represent farming constituencies that I intend to deal principally with the need of extending vocational training to the young farmers of this country. Apparently they are not interested in this problem.
I rise to support the principle and purpose of this most important piece of legislation, and to support the suggestions made by various speakers on behalf of this party who spoke at the resolution stage. However, this afternoon I wish to deal with one particular aspect of vocational training, namely vocational training in agriculture, for which there is a growing need in Canada.
I speak as one who has had a rather close association with agriculture and forestry all my life, and I have a great respect for the opinions of farmers and other rural people. I think everything possible should be done to assist the young people in our farming communities to carry on as successful farmers, succeeding their fathers in the days to come. I have heard this question discussed at meetings of farmers, fruit growers and people representing other types of agriculture; I have discussed it myself with a number of individuals including some of the educational authorities of British Columbia and with practical farmers, those who are particularly concerned with the application of this type of legislation to rural communities.
I suppose it is almost a truism to say that everyone interested in farming these days talks about the need of extending vocational training in agriculture, but very little has been done about it to date. As I see it, the main reason so little has been done about vocational training in agriculture is the many different opinions as to what is required to meet this need, and to some extent I have no hesitation in blaming some of the agricultural organizations who I think have failed to grasp the significance of this type of legislation until recent months. However, changing circumstances and growing awareness of the need are causing farmers' organizations to take a more positive approach to this problem. I think this is particularly so in the province of Saskatchewan and also in British Columbia.
Labour organizations and industrial and commercial leaders have already given active attention to this type of legislation and the problem it is supposed to meet, to ensure
4862	HOUSE OF
Vocational Training Assistance Act that in so far as is possible under the present economic system, vocational training will fill their future needs. However, to date the federal Department of Labour and the provincial departments of education have been given little guidance from farmers' organizations and educational groups with respect to the needs of extending vocational training in agriculture. I give full credit to the federal Department of Trade and Commerce for giving some leadership to industry in the use of vocational training grants, and some provinces have co-operated in analyzing the needs of industry and commerce.
I understand the federal Department of Labour, which is responsible for carrying out the terms of the Vocational Training Assistance Act, has attempted, in so far as federal jurisdiction is concerned, to pursue the same course in respect of agriculture. X hope the minister listens to what I have to say at this point, because I am trying to be my usual constructive self. I am advised that the Department of Labour made a survey of what was required in agricultural training in each province, and they used this information as the basis for discussion at a conference of agriculturists and educationalists that was later called in Ottawa. However, I am advised that with the exception of Saskatchewan the provinces carrying out this survey never sought the advice of practical farmers, but were content to limit their investigations or to obtain their advice from the educational authorities in the provinces concerned.
I do not wish to throw a shadow upon the ability of educational authorities, but in this particular field, when you come to deal with the practical problems related to agriculture which change so much from province to province, from region to region and from one type of agriculture to another, you cannot get sound advice by simply consulting educationalists. You must seek some advice from farmers' organizations and also from practical farmers. We must recognize the fact that the needs in agriculture are changing so rapidly it is difficult to assess them and plan a long term program. We all recognize that difficulty. Agriculture is faced in that respect with the same difficulty as other segments of the economy.
On the other hand, while our program so far as agriculture is concerned is practically in the embryo stage, we must recognize that 13 per cent of the farm labour force of the United States are now using vocational agricultural training facilities, while in Canada to date only 3 per cent of our farm labour force is doing so. There is a big contrast here which should spur us on to greater action.


Now, let us see what is being done in some of the provinces in this respect. I have not the full information, but I have some information from some of the provinces. I am advised that Ontario is offering ten 12-week courses in the fundamentals of maintaining and operating a farm. This is all to the good. I am advised that Quebec probably has the most comprehensive program operating on three levels. I am very taken with the result of my inquiries as to what is happening in Quebec. I am very pleased indeed to see it. I am informed that there are three institutions offering technical agricultural training, and 14 local school boards in Quebec have a good, comprehensive adult training program for men and women at the local level to meet their circumstances, to meet their needs, to meet their convenience and their pocketbooks.
In Manitoba I am advised that apart from the high school diploma agricultural institutes there are practical short courses of three or four days' duration given once per year over television between 10.30 and 12 o'clock, using a special network at low cost when these stations are usually off the air. This is one field that could be investigated and the same principle applied in other provinces. Saskatchewan, I am advised, among the many other aspects of its program, is offering a new two term course in farm machinery upkeep and repair. This is a very necessary course with the increased mechanization on our farms. I have repeatedly gone on farms and found operations at a standstill because no one on the farm could make a minor repair to a combine or some piece of machinery which is very complicated from my point of view. All my early farming days were spent with a walking plow, an axe, a cross-cut saw and a grub hoe. There is training needed in this field, and Saskatchewan is giving a lead in respect of the training of persons in the repair and upkeep of farm machinery.
I am very sorry to say, Mr. Speaker, that in British Columbia our record is rather poor. Out of a total farm labour force of 28,000 there were only 149 students attending day courses and 57 taking advantage of the night courses early this fall. However the agriculture occupational courses at the University of British Columbia are today using vocational training methods.
Now, Mr. Speaker, this could be interpreted as being the fault of too few locations for training in British Columbia, located too far away from prospective students and perhaps not providing the type of training the students want. I have heard that complaint made about the training program that is being undertaken at the moment. In my opinion British

Columbia should establish a permanent practical agricultural school farm giving two season practical courses available to people of all ages who have discontinued their formal education. This program could be interwoven with the vocational training assistance program. This is a very necessary program in respect of the training of young farmers and others who wish to further their training in agriculture in British Columbia.
There are a number of other alternatives I should like to mention, Mr. Speaker. Perhaps the simplest of these would be that both governments should share the cost and more modern and practical courses should be established. We should again encourage our school boards to make agriculture a positive course in rural high schools. I think there is room for considerable improvement in that respect. In conjunction with this, the school facilities and teachers should be available for night classes for adults and for young farmers who wish this additional training. I think that could be woven into this technical assistance program.
Another idea, Mr. Speaker, would be to leave it up to the department of education and the school boards to decide whether they wished agriculture as a vocational training course in their schools, or would like the assistance of the university extension service and government financial aid made available in each part of the province for three or four day courses, each covering one basic facet of agriculture at a time but all of them including accounting and a basic knowledge of soils and fertilizers. I mention these sorts of fringe aspects of technical training because they are all interwoven. I think there has to be a good deal more study given to such technical and vocational training for our young farmers.
However, Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a special plea for further consideration on the part of the minister to the great need for agriculture vocational training in all its various aspects. I suggest the federal departments of labour and agriculture and their provincial counterparts should consult representative farm organizations across Canada and other related organizations, including the agriculture institute of Canada. In addition I suggest that the provincial governments should follow the example of Saskatchewan and seek the advice of practical farmers in various fields of agriculture under varying regional circumstances and conditions.
In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, I again emphasize the need for greatly expanded vocational training in agriculture, and urge that every effort be made to meet this need as soon as possible as a result of co-operation among federal and provincial governments, organizations of various types and farmers. I would
Vocational Training Assistance Act say when it comes to something of this type I have great respect for the intelligence and common sense of the farmers of this country who, I am confident, would be ready to offer their wholehearted co-operation to the federal and provincial governments to make sure the young farmers of today have the opportunities they are entitled to under this legislation.


Robert Carman Coates: Mr. Speaker, before discussing the purposes of this bill I would like to take a little time of the house to extend to the minister, a colleague from Nova Scotia, my congratulations on the better than average job he has been doing since he took over this portfolio. I wish to tell him that we in Nova Scotia are proud of the job he is doing and proud of the fact that, as usual, Nova Scotia is holding up its end in the federal cabinet.
I might also say that as a minister from Nova Scotia he has used the good common sense Nova Scotians seem to be endowed with, in following the policies introduced by the previous minister, the hon. member for Ontario, and in realizing the merit inherent in the legislation that is now being amended.
I am sure that since he assumed the duties of a cabinet minister he has become aware of the fact that there is no magic formula for curing unemployment, and that the best method of effecting the cure that must be carried out is to see that our young people are properly trained and fully capable of entering the labour market, and that our older workers are retrained in a manner that will provide them with their own saleability from an employment point of view.
The minister has proposed four main amendments to the act. The first is to provide that the federal government's share of the cost of training allowances be increased from 75 per cent to 90 per cent. The second is to assist to a greater degree in the "training in industry" programs, by increasing the federal contribution from 50 per cent to 75 per cent of the costs. The third is to extend the period during which contributions payable by the federal government for capital expenditure incurred by the provinces on training facilities will be 75 per cent, and the fourth is to increase the size of the council from 23 to 28 members and to pay an honorarium to its chairman.
I find no objection whatsoever to the first three amendments, and I would just as soon leave the fourth one. There seems to be a growing tendency on the part of the government to increase the size of boards, but I find more can be accomplished with a smaller group of individuals than with a large group, and the effectiveness of a council is usually predicated on the number of individuals placed on it. However, I must say I am in
4864	HOUSE OF
Vocational Training Assistance Act full agreement with the amendments put forward and will certainly vote for them.
If the minister could assist in persuading his colleagues in the cabinet to extend family allowances he would help this program to an even greater degree, for it would allow people with families to keep their children in school longer so they could take advantage of this vocational training to an even greater extent.
Speaking in Newfoundland on November 12 the minister, among other things, stated:
Over 530 projects, designed to expand existing vocational schools or to establish new ones, have been approved since April 1, 1961-[DOT]
The total cost of the buildings and equipment alone will exceed $525,000,000. The federal government has agreed to contribute more than $330,000,000 toward this investment In Canada's future.
I agree with what he said, but I think he should have pointed out, without detracting in any way from his own contribution, that the hon. member for Ontario and the former government put this program on the road. They saw where the problem was and how it could be eliminated. They took the necessary action that today is bringing the rewards we are able to note in the fact that there are over 140,000 new students obtaining this type of technical and vocational training.
There is one matter I would like to raise regarding the calling of tenders for the construction of these institutions to which the government contributes 75 per cent of the cost. I bring it to the minister's attention in the hope something might be done to eliminate grievances that have been developing among certain subcontractors who are not receiving the type of protection that is available to them under the Department of Public Works.
In my constituency there are a number of firms which from time to time submit subtenders to prime contractors for projects of this type, but unfortunately, because the subcontractors do not receive the protection afforded by the Department of Public Works, they find that the prime contractors do either one of two things. An individual prime contractor has either used the subtender, after a contract has been awarded, as a method for renegotiation to force the subcontractor down in his price if he wishes to carry out the work, or the prime contractor has listened to the government of the province, in this case New Brunswick, and has ignored a subcontractor who happens to come from Nova Scotia. This is a result of interference from the government of New Brunswick, and in one case a firm that should have carried out the work was completely eliminated from the job, although unfortunately it was kind enough to provide the prime contractor with


the price on which he made his bid and which allowed him to secure the contract.
I realize that the amount of interference the federal government should exercise in the field of education is a matter of some concern to some provinces. However, when the federal government is putting up 75 per cent of the cash I think it has a right to request that certain things be done, and done in a proper manner. In this respect one particular firm, which to my knowledge lost at least two contracts, has been treated unfairly. I do not think the taxpayer has been treated fairly, and I believe the federal government has the right to and should demand protection for all subcontractors who submit bids on these projects. Certainly if this had been the case there would have been more employment in my constituency, and more employment for this very competent firm.
There is also the fact that if this program is continued-and there is every indication that it will be-we will restore a degree of confidence in our unemployed citizens that they did not have before we brought this program into being in 1961. It has been very noticeable in the town of Springhill in my constituency that men who are without jobs and the means of securing employment because of lack of training very quickly become despondent and are not capable of making the full contribution they once did. This retraining of older workers, especially at the higher rates that we put into effect, makes new men out of older men. It gives them a new hope and a new determination, and it makes Canada a better place in which to live.
Anything we as a government can do to improve the education of our people is of great importance to all Canadians. Certainly the investment we are making with regard to this program is tremendous. I think the results are tremendous also. I believe we will have a more qualified working force because of it. However, I think we must take further steps, such as those mentioned by the hon. member for Kootenay West in the field of agriculture. There is still a need to provide a greater degree of training in this field where technology has taken over, perhaps not as noticeably as in the field of industry but to the same significant degree. Anything that can be done to interest our young people in agriculture to a greater degree, and better train them so that when they enter work in this field they are of more value to those who employ them, will be of benefit to the Canadian nation. I recommend to the minister that he give very careful consideration to the recommendations made by the hon. member for Kootenay West.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to conclude by urging the minister to work as hard as he can to convince his colleagues in the cabinet that family allowances should be extended at the earliest possible date, so that parents who are considering what they should do regarding the further education of their children might decide to take advantage of the numerous vocational schools that have been built by the Stanfield government in my province and by other governments in the other provinces of Canada. These parents would be given the security that is available with even this small cheque each month. I would also ask the minister to see that the subcontractors who are submitting tenders to prime contractors for the construction of these institutions are given the protection that they deserve and should have, for it is neither right nor proper that federal funds should be used by a provincial government to discriminate against firms because they happen to be located in one province, whereas the work is being done in another.


Mr. Gerard Perron (Beauce):: Mr. Speaker, I do not want to unduly spin out this discussion, but I feel I would be remiss if I did not make some observations at this stage of the bill.
My first remarks will be to commend the minister for having revised and reconsidered this legislation in order to meet at least the representations expressed last spring by the minister of education of the province of Quebec who called for an extension of the act so that our province could take advantage of it at least until 1967.
I do not intend to recall here all the disadvantages entailed by this act the day it was passed by the federal government. From an educational standpoint, several provinces, like the province of Ontario, were then ready to take advantage of the act. But statistics show that the province of Quebec did not fully profit from it.
I also commend him for having thought of making an adjustment in the per capita grants for the students in the 15-19 age group who, in the province of Quebec, will attend high schools, technical schools and trade schools. This adjustment will more adequately equalize the technical and vocational training all across the country.
I should like to recall here some of the principles at the basis of those representations. At the beginning, when the legislation was introduced, accepted and passed by parliament, I think that the majority intended to facilitate that technical training needed by our young people and, at the same time, provide some assistance for the recipients of
Vocational Training Assistance Act those benefits during a period of seasonal unemployment. In brief, those who were completely without means were given allowances while acquiring a better technical or vocational training in the trades already carried out by those older people.
However, I feel that in some cases that training did not turn out exactly as it was expected at the time the legislation was enacted. In fact, I remember certain cases in my riding where this legislation was not a happy experience for young people of 20 to 30 years of age.
Under the Technical and Vocational Training Assistance Act, those young unemployed were taken on a free bus ride of 20, 25 or 30 miles each morning, in winter, to the Beauce-ville armouries where they were given a certain training.
The first week of the course was somewhat similar to the period when we used to pass our military tests. For a week endeavours were made to find out the aptitudes of the students.
During the second week, training in first aid was about all they got; for a whole week, they received stretcher bearer and hospital orderly courses.
During the third week, they were taught the meaning of some signs on the uniforms of service men in this country; what the stripes on the sleeves mean: if there are two it is a lance corporal; if there are three, it is a sergeant. That was during the third week.
At the end of the fourth week, the teachers tried to stress the advantages of voluntarily enlisting in the army for a period of three years, since the students were out of a job.
That was all there was at the time, to the so-called "technical training" of hundreds of young people in our province. It seems to me that such methods are, to some extent, along the lines of the philosophy expounded the other day by the hon. member for Beau-harnois-Salaberry (Mr. Laniel), that is, that the best way to train our young people is to have them undergo compulsory military service.
I feel that there should be other means of giving technical and vocational training to young people. We have, in the province of Quebec, as well as in other provinces, numerous institutions which might, through the instrumentality of the law, offer technical and vocational training to our leaders of tomorrow. In so doing, we would work in the best interest of our fellow countrymen of today and of tomorrow.
I wished to make these few remarks, in the hope that the present type of training might be discontinued, at least in the province of Quebec. I have also noticed that in the province of Quebec the act discourages those

Vocational Training Assistance Act who should have priority in matters of education or who would derive the greatest benefits from a refresher course in their own field.
Here again, I believe that this legislation does not meet completely the requirements of certain trades.
For instance, let us think for a moment of the train of thoughts of a person 45, 48 or 50 years old who, for 25 or 30 years, has been a house painter and who faces unemployment due to the winter season. He is then invited to attend refresher courses. And often, the instructors are young 22 or 23 year old men who never painted an 8 by 4 wallboard, whilst the students, as it were, are persons who practised their trade for 30 years.
Mr. Speaker, I can assure you that, under such circumstances, the people do not get a very high idea of how public funds are spent for vocational training purposes.
However, X would not like my remarks to be construed as to mean that I am not in favour of this improvement in the field of vocational training.
On the other hand, in the province of Quebec, together with representatives of the federal Department of Labour, employers and the officials of certain union groups, we have carried out experiments and designed a method of improvement and education for workers in industry and the trades which proved perhaps more efficient than that to which I referred previously in connection with various trades.
Mr. Speaker, when the act was passed in 1961, the hon. member for Joliette-L'Assomp-tion-Montcalm (Mr. Pigeon) took part on two or three occasions in the discussion on that legislation which seemed badly needed in this country. However, going through his remarks, I did not find any reference to the fact that this legislation is a direct interference in an exclusively provincial field. On the other hand, the member for Kootenay West (Mr. Herridge) referred to this fact. As for us we have strongly objected to the interferences of the federal government in a field which was and still is, according to our constitution, exclusively reserved to the provinces.
In this connection, I should like to quote an editorial which appeared in Le Devoir of February 18, 1963 and reads as follows:
This claim made by Quebec is all the more legitimate as the funds given by Ottawa for vocational training belong to the provinces. The long term aim of a dynamic government must be to hand back to the provinces the funds which Ottawa grabbed under cover of war and the endless state of emergency which followed.
But until fair agreements have succeeded in fully restoring the spirit of the confederation act, we would in no way be justified in permitting that other provinces than Quebec spend a great part of the amounts that we pay ourselves into the federal treasury.

If the present situation should last, the provocation referred to by Mr. Gerin-Lajoie would result sooner or later in serious consequences for the future of the country.
Mr. Speaker, I shall not discuss the matter any further, but I am confident that hon. members will take those claims into account and that those who will take part in the next federal-provincial conference will better understand our position that may seem uncompromising to those who are not familiar with the problems of the province of Quebec.
Lately, we have heard a fair number of speeches concerning the withdrawal of joint programs in certain fields of economic activity in our country.
Mr. Speaker, I do hope that, in dealing with the measure now before us, we shall not forget that the province of Quebec does not wish to interfere in any way with normal development in the field of science or technology or with progress in any occupational area whatever, and that on a national scale, but it wants to be treated fairly when making claims which it believes to be reasonable and just.
That point of view must be taken into account, and especially in the way those courses are offered. Help is given to improve the knowledge of those who have had a trade or occupation for a good many years or of young people of 20 to 30 years of age who go and take technical or vocational training, in spite of the deficiencies I mentioned a while ago, a training which is very much similar to a military service training and where there was not even the slightest hesitation in handing out to the students-and free, if you please- khaki uniforms used by the armed forces of our country.
Mr. Speaker, that is further proof of the fact that Quebec is right in claiming those amounts which, if they are due to the province, should be paid back to it through its department of youth. Thus, when the legislation is finally adopted, the training would correspond to the aspirations of those youth and meet the standards of our system of education instead of consisting in rather strange technical courses for the training of people between the ages of 20 and 30.
Mr. Speaker, those are some of the remarks I wanted to make. I have no intention of repeating the figures quoted last week by the hon. member for Quebec East (Mr. Beaule) but, for the information of my fellow citizens of the province of Quebec and other provinces who are interested in this problem, I should like to point out the discrimination which took place in the past under this legislation.
It will be realized, in the other provinces, that they are not being treated unfairly if, in the next three years, the province of Quebec

seems to get an amount of approximately $254 million, while Ontario will only be getting $9 million, Alberta $48 million and British Columbia $54 million.
I think that it is simply the result of the fact that we were not ready or that our education system in high schools and technical schools, under the direction of the board of education, did not meet the legal requirements, at that time.
Mr. Speaker, I hope that these few remarks will be taken in serious consideration during the next federal-provincial conference so that there will be a better understanding, in the end, of the Quebec position and its claims. I hope that this is not merely a case of political balloon to which one government or another may resort, at any level whatsoever, during an election campaign.
Mr. Speaker, I think we should also take steps to ensure that the country will be able to make a maximum use of the nation's vital forces. I have here the report issued following a survey conducted by the "J.O.C." in the province of Quebec, in 1960. Very interesting statistics have been disclosed as well as some discouraging ones.
For instance, a survey carried out in regard to 1958 and 1959 graduates of the various professional schools and technical institutes in the city of Quebec alone, showed that out of a total of 94 graduates having sent answers 42 were engaged in the trade they had learned, 33 had jobs but outside their trade and 19 were unemployed.
Now, that happened a year or two after they had left our own institutions where they had studied for 10, 12 or 15 years.
As for the situation in the city of Three Rivers, an ideal industrial location, according to what is said in the province of Quebec, out of 76 graduating students who replied', 20 were doing what they had studied for, 20 had jobs having nothing to do with their trade and 36 were unemployed.
Mr. Speaker, I think there are gaps not only at the technical and vocational training stage, but also at the formal education level.
The survey that was made shows that, out of 265 answers which were received, 88 persons or 33 per cent were practising the trade that they had learned; 104 or 39 per cent had jobs unrelated to their craft; the unemployed numbered 73 or 27 per cent.
Those figures prove that the gap is not only to be found at the educational level, because, Mr. Speaker, between a well-educated unemployed and a less-educated one, the problem remains the same.
We wish more and more to allow our young people to train to meet the requirements of
28902-5-310
Vocational Training Assistance Act automation, science and progress, which are our heritage and even more the heritage of future generations.
I feel that the deficiencies regarding this disastrous period of unemployment at home should be seriously considered together with technical and professional training.
Mr. Speaker, I do not wish to drag on this debate, but I am convinced these few remarks concerning the moneys which by right belong to the province of Quebec will be taken into consideration. As I said, I think that a very large part of the Quebec people wish to see that field, which is properly theirs, belonging to them and remaining theirs, according to standards already established and legislation already recognized by the very spirit of the confederation act.


Mr. Herman Laverdiere (Bellechasse):: Mr. Speaker, I am happy to have an opportunity of taking part in the discussion of this technical and vocational training scheme.
Indeed, Mr. Speaker, the present world is in such rapid evolution that some sort of intellectual revolution is called for, among our young people as well as among the adults. Formerly, one could for instance, get along after a period of working as an apprentice with a man who thoroughly knew his trade. Moreover, a few years of elementary schooling were good enough for most people to succeed in life. For a large number of young people, especially in rural districts, elementary schooling consisted in a few years spent at school while waiting to be sturdy enough to work. Also, the greatest number were able to secure permanent employment where no particular training was required.
But, particularly in the last few years, applied science has upset our way of life. Automation added to an industrialization which is developing at a pace unknown before especially in Quebec in the last few years has taken us unaware. And that is why we see in every district which did not manage to become industrialized at the same rapid rate, the proportion of unemployment is extremely high, and even where industries are in full development, we have to face another major problem in the lack of trained workers and technicians needed for the operation of those industries. That is quite obvious in the province of Quebec in particular.
We were taken by surprise by this technological revolution, and the present government is doing what it can to remedy the situation.
I am sure that this bill will provide both long term and short term solutions by making possible the technical training of adults, but especially of the younger generation.


Mr. O. W. Weichel (Waterloo North):: Let
me say at the beginning, Mr. Speaker, that I regard our vocational and technical training program as one of the most progressive steps forward in our fight against unemployment. When a Progressive Conservative government introduced this far reaching program back in December, 1960, it had as its intent not only fighting unemployment, but its main purpose was to plan for our future needs and head off unemployment. My friend, the hon. member for Cape Breton South (Mr. Maclnnis), said at the time the legislation was introduced that anyone who had studied the bill would have to admit it was the most positive step forward in the training field ever taken in this country. So say we all.
The impact of this program in three short years has been tremendous. When we left office in May of this year, the building program had approached the $450 million 28902-5-3104
Vocational Training Assistance Act level. Of this total, the federal government had contributed 75 per cent or, in other words, an investment by the federal government of $340 million in the training of skilled manpower and human resources. I am pleased to see that the present government is following along the path we blazed for it. However, last week in St. John's, Newfoundland, the Minister of Labour (Mr. MacEachen) reported that the program was now at the $525 million mark and that facilities had been made available to train 140,000 new students each year. I am amazed, however, at the bland and nonchalant statements contained in the minister's speech. Not one word does he devote to the history of the vocational and technical training school program. In other words, he would lead his audience and other listeners to believe that all this came from big daddy. However, on a subject as important as this, I do not want to drag the debate into a partisan arena.
I should like to say that I am entirely in favour of the program which, to date, has been a resounding success. I heartily commend the present government for its vision for continuing our program, and I hope that those provinces which have not participated as fully as they might will now take advantage of the opportunity to do so. It is now evident that the expanded technical and vocational training program promoted by our former minister of labour and the then government will have a beneficial effect on the whole educational system. Furthermore, other countries have shown an interest in the happenings in this field of development because it is obvious that the former government made great progress. Most important, Canadians have a new interest in education and appreciate as never before the importance of proper preparation for careers and the need to keep abreast of the times-yes, ahead of the times.
In my own riding, four projects were undertaken. The total cost of these improvements was over $2.6 million, and the federal government's share amounted to almost $2 million. Training facilities were provided for more than 1,100 students. It has been my pleasure to visit most of these buildings and I am certainly very much impressed by what is taking place. Before closing, I should like to point out that our government took the trouble to clear these arrangements with the provinces. All applications originated with the municipalities and there was a close accord and harmony between the federal government, the provinces and the municipalities. A word to the wise, I believe, is sufficient.

Vocational Training Assistance Act


Mr. D. M. Fisher (Pori Arthur):: Mr. Speaker, two parliaments ago when this legislation was initially introduced my colleague at that time, the hon. member tor Peterborough, Mr. Pitman, and I were critical of some aspects of the legislation, although we supported it. I should like to go into the justification for that criticism, which I think is still relevant. I do not believe these amendments meet it, and I do not suppose they were intended to do so.
The criticism that we put forward at that time really related to the fact that the legislation, because it did not fall within any kind of framework or plan, was not going to meet what most of us, and the minister, put forward as the justification for it, that is that this was going to be a measure that would provide Canada with the kind of plan and facilities and teaching set-up that would enable us to tackle the problem of the unemployed who were short of qualifications. I was interested in the good speech the hon. member for Ontario (Mr. Starr) made, in which he said, as reported at page 4729 of Hansard, that in the time he was responsible for this particular measure a total of 519 projects were completed, including 254 new schools, 4 technical institutions and 47 trade schools, providing space for some 138,000 students each and every year.
Now, let us look at those figures again. There were 254 new schools, 4 technical institutes and 47 trade schools. In other words, the major point that we made initially still holds good. I think the pattern which has developed since the new government took over would support the statement that by far the overwhelming proportion of building that has taken place has been for institutions that fit into the secondary school framework, and not for technical institutes and trade schools which are primarily the kind of institutions which will meet the problem of retraining the unemployed worker who is having difficulty with both his mobility and finding the kind of job to suit his talents.
This point is to me perhaps the most important one in underlining some of the gaps that still exist in our national educational program. It is probably true that the constituency of Port Arthur gained more per capita out of this legislation than any other constituency in Canada. I know a big vocational school is being opened there this coming Saturday, the Grom Morgan school in Port Arthur, and the parliamentary secretary was up in Port Arthur not too many months ago for the opening of another new school. There have also been many extensions to school buildings and a new composite high school down in Geraldton.
In my riding, and in my province, one of the consequences of this legislation is that we have had this marvellous upsurge in plant, but we are no nearer having a coherent program for advanced technical education, or for retraining people in the labour force who are having difficulties meeting the requirements of employers in that labour force, than we were several years ago.
There is no doubt we have an excellent building program. I can understand the authorities in Quebec, in their complaints and bleats which have led to one part of this legislation, that is, the extension of the time limit, because it was quite obvious Quebec was not ready, and misunderstood the intent of the original act. I have seen statements by Mr. Rene Levesque and Mr. Gerin Lajoie to the effect that they misunderstood the intention of the legislation, that it was primarily in the technical institutions and trade school field, but that instead they discovered it was taken up by Ontario and British Columbia as a means of meeting the cost of a great new secondary school building program.
I think we ought to be realistic and admit that out of the act so far we have got a magnificent contribution on the part of the federal government and the provinces that responded to the problem of providing the country with more secondary schools. I insist the program has not really met head on the problem of retraining the older worker, the unemployed worker. The responsibility for this particular challenge is still resting with the local boards of education, many of which are having difficulty meeting it, not only in terms of funds but in finding the teachers and in meshing in a real training program for the older workers in this kind of school plant created as a result of the act, which plant is primarily being used for secondary school purposes.
We have had a lot of well wishing with regard to this legislation, and the idea that it is going to give great opportunity to our young people to have technical and vocational education. We have heard it said that there should be no stigma attached to this kind of education, and that we need more of it. Admittedly this is so, but in essence the new technical schools and vocational schools we have in Ontario are fulfilling merely part of the secondary school program, which I insist is not principally a training for a specific job or for the development of greater skills within this particular age group that will enable them to go right out into the work force.
All that the government has done in providing secondary school places is fine, but it is still not meeting the other challenge. One of the disappointments in this respect is

that the legislation merely consists of three parts which are important. I do not think the last part, dealing with the honorarium and expansion of the council is vital, but the other three parts are important.
The first is that maximum contribution for training allowances for unemployed persons has been raised from 75 per cent to 90 per cent. This is excellent. This is one contribution that will certainly help the local school boards in meeting the cost. The other amendment, increasing the contribution from 50 per cent to 75 per cent of the cost to the provinces for those people being trained in "training in industry" programs, is also excellent; but again neither of these two important items is really going to meet the fact that we have not a coherent national program in this field.
I think I can make this point best from an article by J. B. St. John which appeared in the Globe and Mail on March 22, 1963, entitled "Money now, a plan later." It reads:
A country caught up in the technological age inevitably faces new and profoundly complex educational problems. The issues of technical education and training for skill do not challenge the principles of the humanist education, but they force an accommodation and a measure of adjustment. In our kind of society, it is not any longer a question of either a cultural education or a technical education, but rather that both are necessary.
In a simpler society, 200 years ago and more, there were only a few occupations, dominated by agriculture and to some extent by commerce. Most of these forms of work were learned at home, or by apprenticeship or indenture arranged by the home.
After the rise of the industrial revolution, with its machines and impersonal factories, the old methods of learning occupations began to break down. Apprenticeship survived for a time in certain types of skilled jobs. But the refusal of many employers to accept the responsibility and expense of training apprentices created the idea of the technical school to fill the gap. The first of these began to appear in Europe and elsewhere around 1890.
There was a considerable interest in technical education in Canada mainly in the first decade of this century, and following the first world war. The purpose of technical schools was misconceived, however, and they were used as dumping grounds for the academically slow, and after a comparatively small number of technical schools had been built, interest virtually died among the public and in the higher levels of official education.
I think I might divert here to say I agree with this analysis completely because I followed the royal commission on technical education after the first world war, and have seen the developments in Ontario where, during the early twenties and mid-twenties there was this spirited upsurge of technical schools, which failed very largely in their purpose because they did become dumping grounds. The article continues:
Today, nobody could call our society simple. There are thousands of occupations ranging from inexpressibly difficult intellectual work down to the most menial and repetitive of jobs. But the
Vocational Training Assistance Act
dominant fact of modem life in Canada is that technology has destroyed many basic forms of work for good, and this has left people lacking an adequate education virtually unemployable. Also, the special skills needed in industry we have tended to import, instead of training our own people. These outside sources are becoming unavailable. Our indifference to technical education has produced a crisis.
The dominion Department of Labour has been struggling since the war to rouse some interest in a broad pattern of technical education in Canada. Rehabilitation, vocational programs, trade training and the like, have been the subject of many conferences, but the effort has not caught the public ear. It was only when a block-buster approach of an enormous grant for building technical schools, trade schools and other types, offered by the dominion government, was tried that the provinces came to life, and grabbed the money while it was going. Plans came afterward.
The block-buster referred to here was the act introduced by the hon. member for Ontario (Mr. Starr) when he was minister of labour. Mr. St. John goes on:
How far short we are in this country of having a well co-ordinated, thoroughly planned technical training program is evident from the details of the speech by C. Ross Ford, federal director of vocational training, to the conference on education, concluded in this space yesterday. It should be emphasized that Mr. Ford's intention was factual, not critical, but any inference that may be made from this remarkable catalogue of other countries' programs only underlines the woeful inadequacy of what we are doing.
Technical training on all its levels, is not just a matter of schools, teachers and a course of study. It involves a close and active liaison between the school system, employers, unions, parents, young people and adults. It requires the definition of standards of training, co-ordinated examination levels, a clear understanding of the various forms and purposes of technical education.
It also involves the elimination of overlapping and wasted facilities, the abandonment of outdated restrictions, such as the provision that people over 21 cannot be taught elementary subjects in school. It requires the acceptance of school training on an appropriate level, as a substitute for or alternative to traditional forms of apprenticeship. There must be an elimination of restricted admission to some occupations, in view of the huge social necessity for employment opportunities for the millions of post-war young people.
It is a pity that there was not a proper recognition of the foundations for a national technical training program before the financial inducement was offered.
The remark made at the first Canadian conference on education that "there is nothing much wrong with Canadian education that a great deal of money, properly applied, would not set right", is largely fallacious. We do need money, but far more than money we need thoughtful planning, a huge degree of persuasion and public enlightenment and, most of all, an understanding of the structure, mentality and needs of Canadian society.
Then this is the concluding paragraph that puts the thing in focus to me:
Here in Ontario we plunged headlong into an incredible spending spree for technical high schools and additions, amounting all told, if the politicians are to be believed, to nearly $200 million, and we had no plan beforehand. It may not be too late to start.

Vocational Training Assistance Act
I do not know whether there is any plan, but I do know that the school boards which have gone for these new schools are getting caught up in the higher cost of the technical and vocational programming that follows from the building. Mr. S. J. Rendall, who is prominent in the Ontario department of education, revealed that technical and commercial courses add 30 per cent to school bills:
Vocational classes have 20 pupils, on average, compared with 30 in academic courses, putting teacher salary costs higher.
To claims that in metro Toronto vocational classes cost twice as much to operate, Mr. Rendall said metro school boards write off much of their night school costs in day pupils, distorting the school boards' statistics.
Ontario, with only 430 high schools of all types, is building 225 new projects under the vocational training scheme agreed on in 1960 by the two senior governments.
That is from the Toronto Star of March 22, 1962. I make this point because there is no provision in this bill for a higher contribution toward these built-up costs that will go to the school boards now dealing with and working in these plans. I think that is a criticism of the bill that can well be made. I think that because these added costs hit the school boards they should receive a larger contribution from the federal government on a continuing basis. I do not know why the government hesitated to do this. I do not know whether it was because of the stock fear that all of us have when we hear the screams from the Quebecers; but it does seem to me this is something that will have to be brought within this program if it is going to be national in scope.
I want to turn to something that is much more current than Mr. St. John's analysis of a year ago. This is the brief that was presented just the other day by the Canadian teachers federation to the Right Hon. Lester B. Pearson, Prime Minister of Canada. This is an excellent brief which really sets out to analyse the situation in Canada with regard to education, and equality of opportunity for education. I think it is a brief that all hon. members should read. I would particularly recommend it to our friends in Quebec who are so anxious to get everything in education within their own province and not have the federal government contributing at all. Some of the statistics, both in terms of the amount of money that Quebec is actually spending for education and the percentage of dropouts in Quebec, are likely to shock them. One of the conclusions to which I came - after looking at the statistics was that Quebec, like many of the other provinces, certainly needs to do something desperately about its education. I still remain unconvinced, having heard the arguments, particularly from

over here on my left, that the way it should do it is by cutting itself off completely from any relationship to a national plan or national objectives, and in doing this probably scuppering or destroying the intention and the wish of most of the rest of the country to have a national plan and some kind of national framework in this particular field. The Canadian teachers federation says this:
We intend to state our conviction that this is not merely a provincial problem, but a national one.
I will repeat that for the hon. member from Drummond-Arthabaska (Mr. Pepin). This is what the Canadian teachers federation says:
We intend to state our conviction that this is not merely a provincial problem, but a national one.
They continue:
It is not one that might quietly fade with the passage of time, but one that is increasing in urgency. Nor is it merely an emotional argument. It is one that is logical, and based on the knowledge that education has a direct relationship to a nation's economic growth.
I would like to suggest to the hon. member for Drummond-Arthabasca, and other members in this house who have expressed similar views to his, that if he would accept this argument of national economic growth I think he would have to agree that this national economic growth is indivisible in terms of Quebec or the rest of the country. But there is another point in this connection. I want to conclude that part dealing with the analysis of the problem, and the urgency, and come down to this. On page 2 the brief says:
Canada has long since reached a state of national emergency in education. Educational costs are expected to double in the next decade. The post-war boom in enrolment has not levelled off: indeed the ratio of young children to the rest of the population has been increasing rapidly. Even the practical matter of unemployment is affected more by the general level of education than by limited, short term measures such as the Technical and Vocational Training Act.
In other words, the teachers federation of Canada has come to the conclusion that this particular measure is a limited, short term one. This is the basic criticism that we advanced about this program several years ago and it is one that I repeat here: it is a limited, short term program. I would like an answer from the minister or his parliamentary secretary-a candid answer-as to whether the government intends to make this more than a limited, short term program. I would like to know what answer they are going to give such an analysis by the Canadian teachers federation of this particular program. In the candid answer that I hope the minister will give I would like him to present us with an analysis of what factors apply in the government's thinking at this time. The factor

I want to hear about is whether all these screams, yells and howls from Quebec in connection with such program may be the reasons, or may be associated with the reasons, for the government and the minister not going forward with something that is long term and embracing. The brief continues:
Measures in any one field can never be satisfactory if built upon an unstable base. Additional training or retraining for jobs requiring technical skills cannot be effective unless those being trained have an adequate basic education. It is at this level-the provision of a generally high quality of basic education-that the problem continues in ever increasing magnitude.
The brief then goes into some of the indicators of inequality. The arguments and statistics in this brief bowl one over when you realize just how unequal are educational opportunities in Canada, both in terms of the proportion of teachers and the retention rates at the junior matriculation level by provinces.
I think members from Alberta should be proud of the fact that their province has a 60 per cent retention rate at the junior matriculation level. This goes away down; the bottom rate is for Quebec, 18 per cent amongst the Catholic schools in that province. The Protestant schools in Quebec have a somewhat better record of a 34 per cent retention. The brief goes into the reasons for inequality in terms of the basic wealth that is available to the provinces and the amount of effort the provinces could make.
The conclusion that you come to-at least, that I have come to, and I am sure anyone who looks at this brief closely will reach the same conclusion-is that we desperately need an equality of educational opportunity in this country, and we cannot do it as long as there is one part of the country that says no, or withdraws itself and insists that the other nine parts, in terms of provinces, have to accept the same basic attitude. I do not know what may be the solution to the particular dilemma that we face in this regard, but I do know this.
I am convinced that English speaking Canadians want a national program in a field such as this. They will support wholeheartedly the argument put forward in this brief; and if that means that this approach is unacceptable to the people of Quebec, then in this very important field it seems to me we ought to do what they ask, and that is to have a federal-provincial conference specifically on this question so that we can see where we stand, can get the lines drawn, and know who on the one hand are going to co-operate and accept or ask for leadership and contributions from the federal government, and who on the other hand are going to go along the line of running things
Vocational Training Assistance Act on their own. I am convinced that the magnitude both of the problem implicit in this act and in the whole educational picture is such that it has to be met on a national basis with a national effort.
If we are truly two nations-I am sure I can speak with more confidence on this than on anything else I may have sounded off about or gone out on a limb on-I am convinced that English speaking Canada wants such a national program, and that they will respond to the kind of arguments and requests put forward by the Canadian teachers federation. I think all these arguments and points put forward by the Canadian teachers federation are germane to this particular piece of legislation before us, and if the Prime Minister pays attention to this brief and sets up this kind of federal-provincial conference, which seems to me both timely and necessary, then before too many months have passed we will have the act back here with a much grander scope and with greater objectives to meet the national purpose.


Hon. Theogene Ricard (Sf. Hyacinihe-Ba-got):: Mr. Speaker, I do not want to take too much of your time, but I would like to devote a few moments to state my position with regard to the legislation now before us, that is Bill C-105.
I want at the outset to commend the Minister of Labour (Mr. MacEachen), for implementing a piece of legislation introduced by his predecessor-


Mr. Lamoniagne:: And which you obstructed.


J.-H.-Théogène Ricard: -who, by means of that legislation, wanted to do a great deal for our young people, our students who are getting ready for executive positions in the industrial or other fields where education is required.
It must be comforting, Mr. Speaker, for the hon. member for Ontario (Mr. Starr) to see that the warnings he gave with regard to the welfare of our young people, are now heard by those who, at a certain time, went as far as to ridicule the proposed scheme. It should be a great comfort for him today to see those people finally realizing that his efforts were not to make political capital, but to help our young people prepare their future.
I still seem to remember the words of the former minister of labour, who urged our young people to continue their studies and not to leave school too early.
His advice was undoubtedly based on his personal experience as the head of a family and also because he had learned during his
4874	HOUSE OF
National Location of Industry Council career that to compete against his fellow-workers, he needed knowledge and education.
Hr. Speaker, if we consider that the degree of education required by industries generally is much higher than it was only ten years ago, we then realize that we must constantly endeavour to encourage our young people to help themselves to improve their lot. Each year, a large number-far too large a number -of young Canadians leave school to enter into the labour market. Unfortunately, due to circumstances, many of those young people will be compelled to accept second-rate positions all their lives and may never carry out anything but a manual trade; they may perhaps be compelled to operate a machine repeating the same movements hour after hour, day after day, week after week. If there is anything disheartening, it is the monotony of certain jobs and this greatly contributes to discouragement among young workers.
That is why, Mr. Speaker, it is so important to give very special attention to the vocational and technical training of our young people.
Mr. Speaker, may I call it five o'clock? [Text]


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Order. It being five o'clock the house will now proceed to the consideration of private members' business as listed on today's order paper, namely notices of motions.


INDUSTRY
Mr. Arnold Peters (Timiskaming) moved:: That, in the opinion of this house, the government should consider the establishment of a national location of industry council for the purpose of directing new industry into those regions of the country which are dependent on a narrow industrial base and those which are areas of surplus manpower; and empowering the national location of industry council, in co-operation with the monetary and fiscal authorities, to offer incentives to attract new industry to such regions when requested by provincial and municipal governments.
He said: Mr. Speaker, in moving this resolution this afternoon I am very concerned, as is the government, with areas which are not receiving their fair share of national development. It has recently been said in this house, and rightly so, that many of the areas now falling behind in industrial development are very much concerned at their being designated depressed areas. The area I represent is not a depressed area but one that has certainly lagged far behind the national trend of industrial development. I believe this question is something to which the federal government must give immediate consideration.


There are those, I am sure, who would say that the development of industry is not necessarily a responsibility of the federal government but that it should be left to free enterprise. However, the people of Canada have proven, over the years, that they do wish to do something to help certain types of industry, such as the gold mining industry, in particular circumstances. They have indicated this to the extent of a large portion of the $120 million which has been paid in cost aid to the gold mining communities over the last 16 years. Recently, within the last month, representatives of the gold mining communities came to Ottawa and presented a brief to the federal government in connection with the extension of emergency assistance. Those who are familiar with that presentation will be aware that many, though not all, of those communities had accepted cost aid as something of a permanent nature. Many of them, including the town of Timmins, had accepted it as the solution to the difficulties now being encountered by those communities. Others, including the township of Teck, believe that this form of assistance had not proved the answer to those difficulties. They do not believe it provides a future for the townships concerned and, in their view, it is only a means of maintaining an industry which could not otherwise survive. It is argued that the federal government, instead of raising the price of gold, or negotiating an increased price for that commodity, has preferred to give assistance to the mining communities, and that this alone has enabled them to survive for the last 16 years.
Because of the way in which this primary industry, of such great importance to Canada, has developed, I believe the day should never come when these communities are left to -their own resources unless, of course, the situation has radically changed. Some will say that the federal government ought not to involve itself in the community affairs of a particular area. However, we are already doing this, in a sense, by the assistance which is now provided to the designated areas. We have done it, too, in the Atlantic area by the creation of the Atlantic development board and the attempts made -to develop new industry in that area. I believe the time has come to give consideration to the needs of other areas in this nation. I have in mind, particularly, the gold mining industry which, it seems to me, can count on no future unless it has the support of provincial and federal governments, and unless the efforts of government at the local level are supported by the presence of new and diverse industries.
I am sure all members are well aware of the contribution which was made by this

industry to the national welfare in the 'thirties, especially, when this country was suffering from the effects of the depression. Many men from other parts of the country came to northern Ontario to work in the gold mines which were then enjoying a relatively prosperous period in relation to other industries. Many of the industries which were then established in the province of Ontario depended upon wealth being produced by the gold mines for their own livelihood. The prosperity of the gold mining industry was a stimulus to the economy of the entire nation. However, these mining communities are now reaching the end of their natural development and there is a need to provide them with assistance in new ways. By the phrase relocation of industry we do not mean taking industry out of one community and moving it to another. We mean that the federal government should provide incentives to encourage industries to enter Canada, or the province of Ontario, in which I am of course most interested, and establish themselves permanently. Possibly special incentives could be given with respect to areas where a certain percentage of the mines are in decline, or where a certain number of mines have been closed down. No doubt, if assistance of this kind were given, industry would be encouraged to enter such areas.
Action along these lines has been taken in Great Britain, though for a different reason. It was found that the facilities available in the traditional industrial areas were heavily overtaxed-there were not enough school houses or services of a municipal nature to allow the addition of substantial new industry in those areas. On the other hand, there were areas, such as we have in Canada, where there was a surplus of manpower and community resources readily available, though the latter could only be used to advantage if industry chose to settle in those districts. Anyone who travels to Britain today and examines the industrial development which has taken place in the north of that country, a region which 20 years ago depended primarily on the shipping industry and on mining, will be surprised at the facilities which have been provided, and the way in which declining industries have been replaced by young and vigorous new enterprises.
It is true that in Britain the government finds itself able to exercise a degree of control which the Canadian government is not yet, and may never be, in a position to use unless the tax relationship between the central government and the provincial governments is radically changed. In the United Kingdom the government is able to decide what concessions shall be made to attract industries to locate in any given area. It is also able to influence the 28902-5-311
National Location of Industry Council decision whether or not a company may raise the finances necessary to expand or locate in a given area. We may not be in such a position here in Canada, but I do believe there are incentives which could be granted so as to encourage development wherever it was thought desirable to do so. There is no area in Canada which does not possess certain advantages. All areas have assets which could be taken into account by any federal government which wished to provide the machinery necessary to assist them.
I am sure the Department of Industry is going to do this for Canada as soon as it has the facilities available. This is a new department, and I am pleased to note that some of the up to date councillors of the township of Teck-they are not all up to date-have decided that this is the future for their community, that the gold mining economy cannot be bolstered up forever and that new industry is going to have to be provided for the people of that area with the assistance of the federal and provincial governments and a great deal of hard work on the part of the municipal officials all working toward this end.
This has been one of the problems we have faced. I am sure it is also true in the mari-times and in any area where there is an industry that is decaying and disappearing. This is particularly so in the case of mining, because the resource is not renewable. Yet you will find many municipal officials who are pledged to maintaining to the very end the economy of that industry. The situation is no different in the areas I represent or in any other area of Canada. We quite often find municipal officials pledged to maintaining something that is really disappearing and they are not looking forward to the day when something has to replace that which appears to be gone.
As I mentioned, there are assessable assets in any community. There are the people of the community who build their homes and raise their children there. The human asset is one of the most difficult to transfer from one place to another. We have all been aware of the difficulty that always arises with the displacement of labour within a given area, and trying to move that labour to another area where employment may be available. It is not only a question of the remaining that is necessary. There is the fact that people have their roots in the community, which I think gives a great deal of stability to any community and is a most valuable asset. Therefore I believe we should not think of moving people, but rather should think of making assets available that will make it possible for the community to flourish and be a success again.
4876	HOUSE OF
National Location of Industry Council
In each area there are community service assets such as streets, roads, hospitals and fire departments in addition to the new materials in the area. In any given area there is always some natural resource that is an asset to the development of industry in that area. While I am not suggesting that all industry should be based on natural resources, certainly the federal government can survey these assets if they provide this type of service to municipalities and provincial governments requesting it.
Lastly, one of the greatest assets any community can have is its transportation facilities. I am quite happy to say that in northern Ontario we have many forms of transportation which would be a vital asset to any industry wishing to settle in that area. So far as many commodities are concerned, there is no difference between moving them from areas close to Toronto or Hamilton and moving the same type of commodity from northern Ontario to Toronto. Coming north or going south there are none of the great traffic bottlenecks that there are in the metropolitan area, or in the Hamilton-Niagara area, from the point of view of the movement of transport trucks. I have been told by truck drivers that they can leave Kirkland Lake, unload in Toronto and be on their way within the same period of time as a transport coming from Hamilton to Toronto during the day. All it means is another eight or ten hours wages for the truck driver and another barrel or two of diesel oil. This is the main difference so far as transportation is concerned.
We also have the provincially owned railway which is willing to make concessions toward the development of industry, and this certainly will not be a roadblock in developing industry in northern Ontario. We also have air transportation, and as far as the people are concerned the transportation facilities generally are sufficient.
We have another asset that many people do not know about or have not paid any attention to, in that many of the gold mining communities are less than 200 miles from a salt water port. Rail facilities are available, and in time a large percentage of the flow of goods will be to Europe via the port of Moosonee.
In moving this resolution I do not expect that the government is going to accept it immediately because I think it takes a great deal of planning, a great deal of pushing and a lot of hollering before the federal government ever decides to move in any direction. I suggest that we will holler just as loud as the maritimers, but perhaps we will have to holler for a shorter period of time than they


did in getting assistance for their area, because I think the idea is generally accepted now that it is not a bad thing for the federal government to assist areas where such assistance is desired by the municipal and provincial governments.
I am sure that the areas of northern Ontario that I represent, particularly those dependent on the gold mining industry, have now come to the conclusion that they are going to have to have assistance from the federal government if they are going to be able to accomplish the secondary industrial development which they need. I should like to add in closing that in our areas community spirit is a very important factor. We do not want to displace our people. We want to use whatever method is possible to keep them there, and if the government wants to make a suggestion on the matter of relocation of industry I will be very happy to listen to any proposition they put forward and try to obtain the necessary support for it.
We have a unique situation in the gold mining industry. Eighty per cent of our people working in that industry are heads of families. Sixty per cent of them own their own homes. The average age of the people working in that industry is over 50 years. I think these factors will indicate to the house and to the country that there is a great desire on the part of these people to stay in that community and to find employment for the people we are training, because within a radius of 100 miles from Kirkland Lake we have the training facilities that will provide highly skilled and trained young people for any industrial development that can be brought to our area. At the present time these people are all being exported to southern Ontario, other parts of industrial Canada and to the United States. I believe that so far as our area is concerned retraining is not going to be the answer nor is relocation of the people. But if we investigate the possibilities that have been opened up by the developments in England and some of the northern European countries, we will be able to do something by way of relocating industry that will be much more satisfactory than relocating our citizens.


Mr. Jean Berger (Monlmagny-L'Islei):: Mr. Speaker, it is with a great deal of interest that I looked upon the motion put forward by the hon. member for Timiskaming (Mr. Peters). As a matter of fact, a rather large part of the riding I have the honour to represent in this house is especially interested in industry. We already have firms that export quality products outside Quebec and are gaining an evergrowing reputation, which is saying a lot.

Indeed, who has not heard about the famous Belanger or L'Islet products, whether they be stoves, furnaces and refrigerators, or furniture, textiles and foodstuffs, to mention only those.
But it so happens that we also have a fairly great number of smaller industries which, unfortunately, are faced with too many thorny problems in the finance, labour, marketing and development fields.
It seems to me quite natural in this world of ours, in the middle of the twentieth century, that our areas should try desperately to get more industrialized, particularly in Quebec where we have to suffer an unforgivable lag compared to certain of the other provinces which, I have to admit it, managed to move ahead before we did. But let us not cry over spilt milk, let us face the future with more serenity, thanks to wiser measures which are better suited to our present and future needs.
However, I must say in passing that small industry, back home as elsewhere, is far from being sufficiently protected. It is being bled white and, on account of that, it is too often faced with impending bankruptcy because of our idleness, so we must act quickly. I wish to quote the famous words spoken by a former mayor of the city of Montreal, who was also a member of parliament: "Hurry up, it is urgent".
It is all very well to ask for the establishment of a national location council for industries in order to distribute them more evenly, but I agree with the hon. member for Timis-kaming when he says that we must also give adequate warranties of success at all levels, federal, provincial and municipal. Moreover, it is most urgent that before venturing too far in that field, we seek primarily to strengthen and improve the position of the small industries that already exist.
In my opinion, it is absolutely necessary to admit that loans must be made easier by revising credit restrictions and offering to those interested lower interest rates, to make it easier for them to meet their numerous obligations.
The services offered by the industrial financing bank in Quebec, for instance, fall far short of the demand; and when one wants a loan, the maximum amount is so low that it becomes more of a hindrance than a help.
With regard to the chartered banks, they have too often merged, with the result that our people are sent to Roy. Nat. or to what I would call other trusts of the same kind.
Even the income tax is endangering to an alarming extent the survival of small industries, when the advantages granted to bigger 28902-5-3114
National Location of Industry Council plants are considered. I feel it would be advisable to review our taxation system in that connection with the co-operation of the provinces.
That is why I add here that I strongly hope we will secure many tangible proofs of good will from our various governments in that respect, following the federal-provincial conference that will start right here in Ottawa in a few days.
Would we not find there, in that increased assistance to small industries, the ideal means to fight even more effectively unemployment which is the bane of our modern world? Personally, I am convinced of it, and I would dare say, in considering the countless number of small industries operating across our country -I am referring more particularly to the province of Quebec-that nearly 65 to 70 per cent of our unemployed would find jobs if such measures were adopted.
For instance, in wartime, if I am not mistaken, the government had implemented a policy under which it would pay a certain percentage, decreasing with the length of service, of the wages of newcomers or apprentices in some industrial trades. I am thinking for instance about printing or machine shops; we had thus placed on the labour market better qualified workers, men and women better prepared to make a place for themselves, a more desirable and more promising place which has kept improving ever since, as far as they are concerned.
Would it not be possible to consider similar measures, other than the one recently put into effect by the present government with regard to aged workers, and for which we commend it greatly?
We need not have any apprehensions about the participation of our municipalities in such a program, because there is already evidence that they are looking forward to such a measure; in this connection let me give you a concrete example taken in the municipality of Notre Dame Du Rosaire in my riding. Here are a few excerpts from the daily newspaper Le Soleil of Tuesday, October 29 last, in that regard:
In order to bolster the sagging economy of the small municipality of Notre Dame Du Rosaire, in the county of Montmagny, the local municipal councillors have just taken a step which is, so to speak, unique in the province.
As a matter of fact, the councillors of that municipality, which is presided over by the mayor, Mr. Joseph Morin, decided to grant a municipal tax exemption for a period of ten years to any industry which would settle in the municipality.
The municipality of Notre Dame Du Rosaire is situated on highway 26, a few miles from the county seat, Montmagny, and it has a population of 726.

National Location of Industry Council
To industries that would like to settle in Notre Dame Du Rosaire, that municipality offers excellent transportation facilities, namely highway 26 which is entirely paved, and the C.N.R. network. The municipality has waterworks and it is situated near the South river. Moreover, a lot of land is available at very reasonable prices for industrial purposes.
The economy of Notre Dame Du Rosaire being mostly based on logging and farming, it follows that the activity is on the down-grade.
That is why, Mr. Speaker, today:
The members of the municipal council show no preference as to the type of industry which could eventually settle there, as long as it can employ about 20 men all year round.
As you may realize it, that community is not that particular.
Here is, Mr. Speaker, an example likely to prompt us to proceed farther with our work.
Our most complete co-operation is assured to the government to which I have the honour to belong, but although I respect and favour the plan contemplated by the hon. member for Timiskaming (Mr. Peters), I must at the same time, in all fairness and decency, point out that important achievement of the present administration, namely the establishment of a Department of Industry.
As was recently indicated by the minister in charge of that important department, there is no intention to take over the part of the provinces as regards the incentives to be provided for private industries.
Just recently, the Minister of Industry (Mr. Drury) stated:
That the objectives of his department were to set up close and continuous contacts with industrialists and businessmen, without overlooking any consultation with economic bodies already set up in the provinces.
He said that the federal government will only mind its own business, wishing to piay a part which it is often the only government in a position to play effectively because of its powers.
The minister then recalled that his department covered the whole range of industrial activities in Canada, from textiles to aeronautics, and he underlined that more emphasis would be put from now on, among other things, on the economic development of the communities most seriously affected by unemployment.
Spokesman for the Canadian manufacturing industry in the federal government, the Minister of Industry promised in no uncertain terms to fulfil that obligation and to seek the necessary co-operation of both the private industries and the provinces, in order to achieve a better solution to the economic problems of our country.

I would like to bring to the attention of my good friend from Timiskaming a booklet, courtesy of the Civil Service Commission of Canada, entitled, "Department of Industry,"

which outlines briefly but effectively the functions and the work of this new department. May I quote more specifically:
-the department will:
promote the establishment of industrial research and development facilitieswork in closest co-operation with provincial departments of industrywork with all agencies at various levels of federal, provincial and municipal government to provide industrial opportunities in designated areas.
The organization of the department follows as much as possible the natural groupings of industry. Within the 10 operational branches there are 33 divisions, each of which encompasses a major segment of an industrial group and centres its interest on an area of industry which is homogeneous as to raw materials, work processes and end-products.
The major role of the area development agency will be one of co-ordination and promotion. It will depend on line divisions and branches to do much of its research and program administration.
I think this gives an idea and proves to a certain extent I was right in mentioning the facts, as I have been doing so far.

Following the establishment of the department I have just mentioned, which has become an accomplished fact, and the statement of the minister concerned on the policy of the said department, I reached the conclusion that the motion of the hon. member for Timiskaming, commendable and well meaning though it may be, has practically no further object, since all he requests is now being happily realized by the present administration, which I want to congratulate, once more, for its successful venture in that important section of our economy I hope, nevertheless, the few remarks I have humbly and personally brought forward will be studied carefully, and, above all, will be implemented for the greatest good of my fellow citizens and of the country at large, for which, you may rest assured, they will be forever grateful.


Mr. H. Russell MacEwan (Piciou):: Mr. Speaker, I welcome the opportunity to discuss for a few minutes the motion of the hon. member for Timiskaming (Mr. Peters). The areas to which it refers include the maritime provinces, and especially the constituency of Pictou which I represent. In that constituency the closing down of coal mines, which commenced about 13 years ago, has resulted in the causing of a labour surplus there. The men who worked in the coal mining industry were unable to get other work.
The largest employer in the area is the Eastern Car Company at Trenton, Nova Scotia, which manufactures rolling stock for the railways. The area is dependent a great deal on this type of industry. When engaged at full capacity it employs approximately

1,200 men, but the difficulty now is that the two main railways, the C.P.R. and the C.N.R., need only a certain number of cars and are going into specialization. This has made the area one of continuing labour surplus. It has been so designated by the government, and was also designated a labour surplus area by the former government.
What is needed is other types of secondary industry to employ the workmen in the area. Although the intentions of the hon. member are worthy of commendation, I am not quite sure I agree with his recommendation for a national location of industry council. We have many commissions and councils at present. We have the Atlantic development board; and when I questioned the Secretary of State, who is answerable to parliament for that board, I gathered from his remarks that the Atlantic development board was set up to look into matters of importance to the whole Atlantic area, to provide the necessary climate for development, to provide help in transportation and freight costs, and thereby help the whole area. I also understood that the area development agency under the new Department of Industry would be assisting in attracting new industries.
Perhaps as the hon. member for Mont-magny-L'Islet (Mr. Berger) has just said, the terms of reference of the area development agency, under the Department of Industry, are wide enough to carry out the intentions expressed in the motion of the hon. member for Timiskaming, but I sincerely believe that extraordinary measures have to be taken to get areas, such as the one I represent, on their feet.
The hon. member for Timiskaming says that the council he seeks to establish would work in co-operation with the monetary and fiscal authorities to offer incentives in order to attract new industry. It can be pointed out that the former government introduced the incentive of double depreciation, and the present government, through the income tax bill passed recently, has given other forms of incentive. It can also be pointed out that the former government, through the then minister of finance, was able to attract an automobile plant to the Dartmouth area, the Volvo plant from Sweden. I am not an economist or a financier. I do not know what additional incentives would be needed, but in the present situation I feel something out of the ordinary has to be effected.
In the province of Nova Scotia a crown corporation, Industrial Estates Limited, has been set up. This has been able to attract a large number of small industries into the province, including the automobile plant. They construct buildings and rent them to firms, giving the firms an opportunity to
National Location of Industry Council purchase the buildings once they are on their feet. In a conversation with the president of that corporation, who lives in the same area as I do, I gathered he felt in order to assist areas such as ours there had to be additional help from the federal government. Industrial Estates have only so much in assets, and federal government assistance is necessary. As I have said, perhaps the new area development agency can carry out this role, but I believe it will have a lot of work to do, and I hope it will have the necessary machinery to do it.
In my own area there is a voluntary organization known as the Pictou county research and development commission. This was set up a few years ago and includes members of the clergy, the steel workers union and representatives of the industries in the county. This commission is attempting to do something for the area. I suggested at a meeting that they get in touch with the Atlantic development board. I believe they have done that, and they have also talked with Industrial Estates. I hope, once the area development agency is set up and the new Department of Industry starts to work, the agency will have people who can go there and talk to the members of this commission. This is a voluntary organization. It can do good work, and I think it is a most necessary thing.
I might point out that in that area the vocational school was opened this fall to help our younger people learn the necessary trades. A labour report was issued after the prime minister of the day, now the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Diefenbaker), had representatives of the Department of Labour and the Department of Trade and Commerce go to the area and carry out a survey. The report was confidential at the time, but I have been able to see it. The report pointed out that the people in the area, even those who were older, could be educated in the various skills and trades, as well as the younger people. Therefore the necessary labour force is there.
As I said originally, Mr. Speaker, I do not want to speak very much longer on this matter. My own constituency is certainly the type that would be assisted by measures along the lines of the measure introduced by the hon. member for Timiskaming (Mr. Peters). I repeat, they must be extraordinary measures in order to cure a chronic blight which the people of our area have suffered. A couple of good sized industries brought into the area would make all the difference in the world and would give the people of Pictou county a glimmer of light. About two years ago the former government arranged, by way of export credits to assist the Dominion Steel and
4880	HOUSE OF COMMONS
National Location of Industry Council Coal Company to sell rolling stock to Argentina. It was estimated that the order, amounting to about $25 million, would keep that plant running for approximately a year. Unfortunately a revolution occurred and the order was of course cancelled. The glimmer of hope was there, but it was soon obliterated upon the cancellation of the order. However, Mr. Speaker, I commend the hon. member for the good intentions he has exhibited in this bill. Perhaps this council would be the proper way to do it, but I urge the government to look into this matter, and in areas such as my own accelerate the program and provide extraordinary measures to assist them.


Mr. Real Caouette (Villeneuve):: Mr. Speaker, I have read this evening the notice of motion of the hon. member for Timiska-ming (Mr. Peters); incidentally, the hon. member's constituency is close to mine, in the northwest section of Ontario. It seems to me that the notice of motion rests upon serious motives. Its objectives are similar to those embodied in legislation brought in by the government not so long ago.
Here is the hon. member's notice of motion:
That, in the opinion of this house, the government should consider the establishment of a national location of industry council for the purpose of directing new industries into those regions of the country which are dependent on a narrow industrial base...
I am thinking, at the moment, of some regions where that base is very narrow indeed. Take for instance our own area: La Peine, Rouyn, Noranda, Val d'Or, Malartic, Cadillac, Amos. It goes without saying that it would be a good thing if new industries were implanted there. A moment ago, the hon. member for Montmagny-L'Islet (Mr. Berger) spoke to us of the needs of his constituency for new industries.
However, Mr. Speaker, in spite of the fact that all these objectives are highly commendable, and that the motives are very weighty, it must be admitted that the results obtained so far are not very satisfactory, good intentions notwithstanding. Our section of the country is marking time; no new industries have sprouted there, and we seem content to listen to the goodwill statements of the government and of certain members of our assembly.
This morning, before I left Rouyn, I inquired about the number of unemployed in our area. In November 1963, there are over 1,600 unemployed. Family heads are clamouring for jobs: we suggested they try the winter works program and some found jobs there.

This morning, I had the visit of two bachelors, two young Canadians who want to earn a living. One of them was over 40 and the other one was only 23. The U.I.C. office in Rouyn told them: "You are bachelors and we have to give priority to heads of families." We understand that a father who has many children to support certainly needs more assistance than a bachelor.
However, what are we going to do about bachelors under this well-meaning system?


Mr. Habel:: They only have to get married.


David Réal Caouette: I hear my hon. friend from Cochrane say that they only have to get married. They cannot even afford to do so.
Mr. Speaker, it is easy to say to Canadian bachelors:	"Get married", but where are
they going to find the money to do so? Where will they find the job that will make it possible for them to consider matrimony?
Those are not solutions, Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for Timiskaming (Mr. Peters) meant well when he introduced this motion because we do need new industries but we have been talking of new industries in northwestern Quebec and northeastern Ontario for ten years now.
The government is well intentioned. It encourages industries to establish themselves in the so-called depressed areas. In spite of those good intentions, just go and see whether a single new industry has settled in those areas following the legislation which was introduced recently by the present government and which grants a tax holiday to new industries which would settle in depressed areas.
Mr. Speaker, the notice of motion of the hon. member for Timiskaming goes on as follows:
-and empowering the national location of industry council, in co-operation with the monetary and fiscal authorities, to offer incentives to attract new industry to such regions when requested by provincial and municipal governments.
Now, the hon. member for Montmagny-L'lslet was right when he said a few moments ago that the government had already enacted legislation to that end.
-to offer incentives to attract new industry-
However, we are still at the same point. We are grappling with the problem in Bill No. C-105 since it intends to create new jobs or to help retrain workers displaced or replaced by machines, enabling them to get some training, to become technicians, to acquire new skills in order to be in a position finally to find work.
Now, once again in spite of all those fine intentions, under the present system, an unemployed worker is trained, and instead of having an unskilled unemployed worker,

you have a trained one, who will still be without work. Moreover, there are many such workers in our firms and industries. For example, in my own business in Rouyn, I keep two or three employees-why? So that they will earn a livelihood during winter- while I could have done without their services very easily during that season. Now, these employees have remained in my service so that they could provide for their family and children. I believe our employers do likewise, in order to prevent many Canadian families from being poverty stricken.
Mr. Speaker, I endorse this motion whose purpose is to direct new industries towards our regions and our depressed areas, to develop Canada's natural resources and to help heads of families and our youth improve their lot. If we could do that, I believe we would have achieved something worth-while but I doubt very much that it will be so because automation is making constant inroads with the result that it is difficult for men to earn their living.
We, on this side of the house, are quite willing to co-operate and to go along with the experiments that are suggested but let us do something, let us encourage the establishment of new industries and let us see what will happen in five or ten years from now. That is fine but I hope it will be possible for me, at some other time, to express my views and to set forth a constructive program for the development of Canada's tremendous resources and possibilities. Then, I think Social Credit will have made its contribution to our legislation.


Mr. Lloyd R. Crouse (Queens-Lunenburg):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to speak briefly on this measure, for I believe there is much in it to commend itself to the attention of the house. In my constituency recently a seminar was held at Bridgewater to discuss the recurrent problem of winter unemployment. This seminar was attended by municipal councillors, wardens of the municipality and mayors of the different towns in the area, and their problem in that section of Lunenburg county was the traditional one of unemployment during the winter period. We know that this is a seasonal situation; but we have industrious, ambitious people in that section of Lunenburg county, and I believe part of their problem could be solved if secondary industry could be induced to locate in that area. It is quite possible that with the extra incentives suggested in this motion of the hon. member for Timiskaming (Mr. Peters) new industries would locate there.
The idea proposed by the hon. member is not new. I recently returned from the United
National Location of Industry Council Kingdom where I had the opportunity of sitting in the British house of commons and listening to proposals put forward. These were recorded in the Daily Mail and I believe are worthy of mention:
Top priority is to be given to the socially depressed northeast in the government's plans for modernizing Britain.
Its population of 2,875,000 will get a bigger share than any other part of the country of expenditure on new roads, houses, schools and factories.
There is to be a continuous improvement in all public services, from libraries and swimming baths to street lighting and parks.
These and other great changes are envisaged as part of the biggest recovery operation for an area hit by high unemployment ever conceived and sanctioned by a British government.
The program for the northeast and another for Scotland, published yesterday as white papers, call for long term investment costing scores of millions of pounds.
I believe something of this nature should be done. When the Conservative party were in power we made a start along these lines. Our subsidies for shipbuilding were a great inducement toward providing employment, especially in Nova Scotia, where our shipyards are booming. But while this has provided employment for a section of our people, there are still some citizens who throughout the winter period are unemployed. I feel that something outstanding must lie done. I do not agree that a national location of industry council should be set up. We already have a new Minister of Industry (Mr. Drury) and I believe these areas are now known to the minister and his assistants. I think it would be possible to consult with those provincial and municipal authorities who are well aware of the problem and who could give valuable information to the new department as to what industries could be located in these depressed areas, areas where there is unemployment, and new measures thereby brought into effect which would assist new industry to locate there. I think extraordinary measures are needed. For too long were we in Nova Scotia looked upon as the depressed mari-times. In my view, now that we have the Atlantic development board, this is one problem which could be referred to it, and in consultations between the directors of that board and the new Department of Industry I believe new incentives would bring about an improved situation which would help the areas most affected by unemployment, especially in Nova Scotia.


William Arnold Peters: Mr. Speaker-


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Batten):: Order. I should point out to the house that if the hon. member for Timiskaming speaks now he will close the debate. The hon. member for Essex West (Mr. Gray).

Vocational Training Assistance Act


Mr. Gray:: Mr. Speaker, I just want to raise a point of order. I think the hon. member in the Social Credit party who is sitting next to the hon. member for Timiskaming has tried to rise to speak on several occasions.


William Arnold Peters: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased that no one else wishes to speak on this motion because this will give us the opportunity of taking a vote and I do not wish to delay that, I appreciate the support which has been given to this motion and welcome support in the vote.


Herbert Eser (Herb) Gray: Mr. Speaker-


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Batten):: Order. The hon. gentleman is not able to speak now. I warned the house that if the hon. member for Timiskaming spoke he would close the debate.


Some hon. Members:: Question.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Batten):: Is the
house ready for the question? Moved by Mr. Peters that-
Seme hon. Members: Six o'clock.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Batten):: Is the
house ready to call it six o'clock?


Some hon. Members:: No. Question.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Batten):: Order. It being six o'clock I must advise the house that the hour for the consideration of private members' business has expired. The house will now revert to the business which was interrupted at five o'clock.


William Arnold Peters: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, might I suggest that you were already in the process of calling the vote and the only reason it has been delayed was because of questions which were raised. I suggest the house continue with the question which you were in the process of putting.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Batten):: Order. I shall have to call it six o'clock unless the house decides otherwise. It being six o'clock I do now leave the chair.
At six o'clock the house took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The house resumed at 8 p.m.

[Stage Direction]
The house resumed consideration of the motion of Mr. MacEachen for the second [The Acting Speaker (Mr. Batten).]
reading of Bill No. C-105, to amend the Technical and Vocational Training Assistance Act. [Translation]
J.-H.-Théogène Ricard: Mr. Speaker, when the debate was adjourned at five o'clock, I was saying that the house should give a lot of attention to the Technical and Vocational Training Assistance Act because of its great influence on the career of a great number of Canadians.
The hon. member for Ontario (Mr. Starr) had been concerned for a long time with the question of technical and vocational training. Therefore, as soon as he was appointed minister of labour, he called for a detailed study of the matter. He did not want to enter lightly into such a complex field. And before launching such a program, he wanted first to know the means then at the government's disposal in order to avoid useless duplication.
The provinces were then invited to make their needs known so that a general program that could give satisfaction to all interested parties could be formulated.
These studies have led to the conclusion that the total cost of construction works required to get the program under way was approximately $511 million. Out of that amount, the federal contribution totalled $326 million.
Last week, the hon. member for Ontario told us that the capital mentioned resulted in the construction of 254 new schools, 4 institutes of technology and 47 trade schools.
These new facilities make it possible to accommodate 138,000 new students each year. Fast developments in education, in every aspect, require constant efforts to keep up to date in the field of education as well as the field of vocational training.
I am pleased that the authorities of my province decided to avail themselves of the advantages offered by this legislation initiated by the previous Conservative government.
I have in my hand a summary indicating the projects approved in the province of Quebec between April 1, 1961, and March 14, 1962. It is indicated that 19 institutions in our province benefited from the provisions of this legislation. The estimated construction costs of those institutions was close to $11.25 million with a federal participation of nearly $8 million. The said institutions can provide facilities for some 2,550 students.
It is with pleasure that I bring to the attention of the house the fact that two institutions in the city of St. Hyacinthe took advantage of this act, a Conservative conception. It was, first of all, the textile institute which received grants totalling close to $36,000 for the purchase of machinery and equipment. Then, a

grant of $3 million was paid out for the purpose of helping in the construction of the farm technology institute and the buildings are under construction.
Besides the substantial grants just mentioned, several industrial training classes were organized by the local unemployment insurance office for the unemployed.
Mr. Speaker, in view of the importance of the textile industry in the province of Quebec, and more particularly in the constituency I have the honour to represent in this house, I plan to direct the rest of my remarks to the need of preparing the technicians and leaders needed in that important sector of our economy.
The primary textile industry is the second largest employer in the province. It provides work to approximately 44,000 workers and the gross value of its production reaches more than $500 million every year. There are primary textile factories in a hundred localities of the province of Quebec. It is essential, therefore, to provide for the technical training of the personnel required to take charge of this industry which is so important for our workers.
According to a recent survey, 3,000 more workers having received a technical training will be required in the textile industry of Quebec within the next ten years.
The same survey has shown that in 1960, 2,500 persons were employed in administrative and technical positions. Moreover, it has been estimated that as a result of separation due to illness or retirement, the textile industry in Quebec needs at the present time at least 75 new graduates in textile each year.
In 1970, at least 150 graduates will be required each year to meet the needs of this typical Quebec industry.
According to the experts' estimates and provided that the domestic market and imports follow their present trends, the Canadian textile industry will provide jobs for 121,000 workers in 1970.
I, therefore, urge the Minister of Labour (Mr. MacEachen) to devote his full attention to this problem, reminding him that the St. Hyacinthe textile institute is administered by a qualified staff who has already trained a large number of technicians and professionals in the textile industry. In fact, those professionals and technicians now hold prominent positions in industry not only in Quebec but throughout Canada.
The hon. member for Drummond-Artha-baska (Mr. Pepin) will undoubtedly agree with me that the director of the St. Hyacinthe textile institute and his loyal associates will co-operate extensively with the proper authorities to ensure the continuation of this
Vocational Training Assistance Act project in the province of Quebec which came to life under another government and which received subsidies from the previous Conservative government, to train leaders who will be able to make a success out of the Quebec textile industry in the interests of the province and of the country at large.


Mr. Fred F. Sienson (Peterborough):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to say a few words with regard to the bill now before us, and particularly as to the amendments having to do with the provision of training to persons in industry. I should like to ask the minister if the legislation is going to help apprenticeship training in industry. I do not feel that the act covers apprenticeship training and I should like to speak on this point for a few minutes. First may I say that our country must feel embarrassed at times at having to go abroad to secure skilled workers for our industries when there are so many unemployed people throughout the country.
Apprenticeship schemes existing in a variety of industries are subject to the uncertainties of Canada's economy. Many schemes do not have legal recognition, as a result of which the government insists that, come depression or boom, apprentices will be guaranteed their full term of training. However, apprentices in a few designated trades are protected in Ontario by a government training program. Outside these designated trades management, conscientious as it may or may not be, has no obligation to apprentices. If lay-offs are necessary the apprentice may be asked to leave in the middle of his training.
There is no general scheme whereby this half-trained young man can be absorbed by his industry elsewhere in Canada so that his training will not be interrupted. He is left to his own resources. He may have to seek entirely different work and he is always susceptible to the temptation of higher wages in a job having a limited future. An unscrupulous employer can also take an apprentice on with the sole purpose of gaining cheap labour. When depression hits the plant a fully trained journeyman, unless protected by a union contract, can be laid off and the apprentice kept on to take over at a lower wage.
This shortsightedness on the part of the employer has raised the ire and the suspicions of labour. The result is that most unions insist on rigid seniority clauses in their contracts to protect the journeymen. A certain number of apprentices are permitted in ratio to journeymen and, if necessary, lay-offs abide by the same ratio. Out of all this situation arguments come from both sides. Management accuses labour of sacrificing apprentices in times of lay-off. Labour accuses management of using apprentices for selfish

Vocational Training Assistance Act ends when they should be treating them as an operational cost and an investment in the future of their particular industry.
This situation is not general. Many companies have apprenticeship plans that are working to the satisfaction of management and labour. The Ontario government has made some advancement in implementing training programs, and each province has been assisted by the federal act which was brought forward by the former Conservative government. I should like to quote two gentlemen, one a union leader and the other a factory manager, in order to point out their views in regard to apprenticeship training. Mr. Ralph Sullivan of the united electrical union has this to say:
Companies tend to render the subject of apprenticeship to the rise and fall of production. We are naturally opposed to the journeyman being laid off so that management can eventually bring in new, untrained people as cheap labour. Management must take on the obligation of training new workers but not at the expense of experienced men with established service.
Lack of Incentive among young men toward apprenticeship is not governed by high wages in other occupations. It is simply because industry will not guarantee them being able to serve their full time. No security is offered. This is what is discouraging youngsters. I know examples where a man has had to spend eight years of his life instead of four to get his trade because his training has been deferred by lay-offs.
Mr. Robert Barrett, factory manager, has this to say:
An apprentice must be guaranteed his training time. Perhaps the best idea would be to have a training scheme that is outside of labour's seniority clauses and beyond the reach of management as a source of cheap labour. Management-labour committees could be set up within industries to protect apprentices along these lines.
Government should have a hand in this, of course, perhaps on a provincial basis but within a national scheme so that an apprentice can go elsewhere if he is affected by lay-offs. The provincial government-
Mr. Barrett is speaking of the Ontario government.
-has already done a lot of groundwork on this problem but could be more directly involved. Perhaps governments could subsidize apprentices by paying part of their wages while they are training on the job. This would take some of the onus off management and assure labour that the apprentices are protected.
One can see from these two quotations that these men, leaders in their own fields, are interested in apprenticeship training. There is a lot of talk about the need for expansion in industry, but how can we expand if we have not got the skilled labour? I feel that the Department of Labour, and especially the minister, should give serious thought to instigating proper legislation to improve our apprenticeship training program. It should be possible to secure men for skilled trades in Canada. We
should not have to go outside the country to find the necessary skilled workers.


Mr. Ralph Cowan (York-Humber):: Mr. Speaker, when we are considering this question of further assistance to the vocational and technical training of the young people of the country I look upon it as a very happy coincidence that parliament at the present time is considering the estimates of the Department of National Health and Welfare, because these two matters can be intermeshed to the benefit of Canada and Canadian taxpayers as a whole. When the estimates of the Department of National Health and Welfare were introduced on Thursday the hon. member for Grenville-Dundas (Mrs. Cassel-man) and the hon. member for Springfield (Mr. Slogan) pointed out that, with such vast expenditures being made by this second greatest spending department of the government, there must be opportunities for reducing expenditures if they are closely examined month by month and year by year.
Speaking along the same theme on Thursday night, I made the suggestion that the first big cut that could be made in the expenditures of the Department of National Health and Welfare, one which would save many of the provincial prepaid hospital insurance schemes now in jeopardy, would be to transfer the training of student nurses from the departments of health in the ten provinces to the departments of education. I pointed out at that time the departments of education of the ten provinces now train young people for every career, trade and vocation there is, except nursing. I suggested that by putting nursing under the departments of education, money would be saved the departments of health.
The Ontario government is making haste slowly in this direction. I sincerely want to compliment them and commend them for what they are doing under the direction of the Hon. Dr. Dymond, the minister of health, and the Hon. William Davis, minister of education. The Ontario government, under the department of education, has been conducting for some years a course for registered nursing assistants at the Beal technical school in London, Ontario, where they are graduating registered nursing assistants. About four years ago they extended this effort to a school in my own riding of York-Humber, the Weston collegiate and vocational institute which now has a course for registered nursing assistants.
I point out that these courses in the Beal technical school in London, Ontario and the Weston collegiate and vocational institute in Weston are under the department of education. This has been a great departure on the

part of the provincial department of health in putting these courses under the department of education. In addition, the province of Ontario, with the ready co-operation of the Hon. Dr. Dymond and under the careful eye of the Hon. William Davis, is instituting a new course for nurses at the Ryerson polytechnical institute. The legislation now before us lends itself to adaptation for the education of nurses throughout the ten provinces.
It is the great anomaly of the present day that, when we have so many unemployed throughout the country, the one vocation that could use more and more employees is nursing and other hospital employment. There is nothing but a shortage of applicants in this area. This is due primarily, of course, to the lack of pay the graduate nurse can expect to receive upon graduation. Second, it is due to the present method of education of nurses. Many young girls resent the convent-like atmosphere of being in by ten every night of the week with one late night in the month. They would sooner have freedom and train for secretaries, stenographers, artists or any other vocation but nursing, because under the nursing education system in use they are cabined and confined in their student days.
By moving the education of nurses over to the department of education under the legislation we are now considering, great assistance can be given to the provincial governments for the education of persons to become registered nurses. It is true that student nurses for generations past, and at the present time, are largely confined to that class between 18 and 22 years of age. I would urge upon the ten provincial governments to give serious consideration to training, under the moneys made available to them under this legislation, married women between the ages of 35 and 40. It seems that in this day and generation women give up bearing children by the age of 30. By the time they are 35 or 36, the youngest child is in school and the mother is at home alone during the day. If attention were paid to educating married women from 35 to 40 and they were advised that they would be trained as registered nurses or certified nursing assistants at a nearby collegiate, vocational or technical school, I am certain that thousands of women would be attracted to this new avenue of employment.
I would suggest that the students who go to these technical and vocational schools, with the assistance provided by this legislation, should be paid by the hour for the work they do at the hospitals where they will be given their clinical experience. Their lectures could be taken in vocational and technical schools or at university buildings, if close; but the clinical experience would be gained at the
Vocational Training Assistance Act hospital, where they would be paid at the going rate for the work they do. With these women, both the girls from 18 to 22 with whom we are familiar and the proposed new class of possible nurses, the married women from 35 to 40, I am certain we would attract a large number of applicants, because they would be paid for the work they are doing and thus be able to look after their own expenses while in training.
Of course, suggestions such as these, and the actions of the Ontario department of education in assuming the education of certain nursing assistants in London, in Weston and at the Ryerson polytechnical institute in Toronto, are meeting with a great deal of cluck-clucking on the part of the women who for years have dominated nursing education in hospitals. They are always "viewing with alarm." The provinces have to take a deep interest in this field of nursing education now and for the next few years, because it is the dominant fact facing hospital administrators today.
In the Ottawa Citizen of Friday, November 8, there is an editorial entitled, "The Need for More Nurses". This editorial comments on a motion passed at the 1963 convention of the Ontario hospitals association in which that association urged the provincial government to assume the major responsibility for providing new facilities for training nurses. The motion points out that the efforts of hospitals, universities and the nursing profession have failed to meet the existing demand for nurses. The Ottawa Citizen states that when the Ontario hospital services commission was brought into effect, the Ontario government had the obligation of seeing that there are enough nurses to support the scheme. The Citizen is commenting on the motion of the Ontario hospitals association, but the statement that it is incumbent upon the provincial government to see that there are enough nurses to staff the prepaid hospital scheme applies equally to all the ten provinces as it does to the province of Ontario.
The Toronto Globe and Mail, under date of October 15, commented editorially on a report presented to the provincial government by a committee of experts representing the nursing and medical profession, the nursing schools, hospitals and the Ontario hospitals services commission. This report advised the Ontario government to institute a crash program of training in order to get sufficient nurses to staff the hospitals now in existence, and those about to be built. This report states that instead of graduating 2,500 nurses a year as at present, it will be necessary by 1968 for Ontario to graduate 5,000. With graduate nurses from 18 to 22, experience shows that

Vocational Training Assistance Act within four years 75 per cent of the girls are married and only 25 per cent of them are left at work.
If the provincial governments will take advantage of the legislation now being passed -I am certain it will be passed because the Conservatives state that they fathered the bill and the Liberal party is like a mother hen clucking over it-I am sure we will have a very good hatch. I am sure if provincial governments will take advantage of the assistance available to them to put nurses in training in existing buildings, they will be able to produce the number of nurses recognized as necessary, if the hospitals are to operate at their maximum capacity.
The Globe and Mail refers to a crash program for nurses, and this is as good a description as any that can be applied to the present necessity. Some years ago there was a tremendous shortage of school teachers, particularly in the secondary schools, and then in the primary schools. The provinces instituted crash programs whereby they gave certificates of teaching ability, to students who had just finished grade 12, for public school teaching, and to students who had just finished university for secondary school teaching. With the crash programs, in a matter of about four years there was a plethora of graduate teachers, and we found that with the shortage of teachers salaries had moved up, so much so that educated persons who were qualified teachers were leaving business to return to the profession.
If teachers will leave business to return to the teaching profession, as has been proven in the case of schools, through the lure of higher pay, then it can be done with regard to the shortage of nurses. There are thousands and thousands of graduate nurses now married; and with a premium rate of pay for holiday and Sunday work, and shift differentials, they can be attracted back from their homes into the gaps that exist in our nursing field. But it is necessary that even more younger and inexperienced people be trained in this field at this time. I sincerely hope that the departments of education will realize that this is, shall I say, a parliamentary-sent opportunity, to introduce the training of nurses under departments of education, with assistance from the federal Department of Labour.
Of course we are going to hear loud out-crys from defenders of the status quo: Where will the teachers come from? I can only suggest on this occasion that during crash programs the teachers for graduate nurses or certified nursing assistants should be routed throughout the provinces in much the same way as are the assize court judges. They travel from county to county holding courts, and 

because of their legal training, ability and experience they are highly respected in the county court towns where they preside. If teachers now holding forth in schools of nursing should be circulated among new schools of nursing, under the heading of technical and vocational training assistance, they would bring the same high experience to the students.
About three years ago a leader in the field of nursing commented to me that the way nurses are being educated in hospitals leaves much to be desired in some fields, and pointed out there can be a town X where the instructress in maternity will pass all the student nurses of her school on provincial examinations, and the instructress in medicine, not being of high calibre, will have a great number of failures; but in town Y you will find a very expert teacher of student medicine will pass all her nurses, whereas the teacher in maternity, not being of the same high calibre, will have half her students fail. By having experienced teachers travel from school to school a greater majority of the students will pass.
I have already suggested, when speaking on the estimates of the Department of National Health and Welfare, that we should drop the federal grants for nursing education. This will result not only in the expenses under that heading being transferred to another, namely education, but it will at least be in its proper perspective. If departments of education can train doctors and dentists, they certainly can train nurses.
There is an article in this morning's Globe and Mail which points out that, because of growing specialization in medical practice, many patients are losing their identification once they enter hospital doors. So many experts look at a patient today that the doctor does not know the patient and the patient does not know the doctor. The article is illustrated with an interesting cartoon in which a patient is lying in bed, and is looking up and saying, "I realize it is none of my business, doctor, but how am I doing"?
This can be adapted to the taxpayers of the country. The country is being besieged at all hours of the day and night by minions of the nursing hierarchy throughout Canada who are urging, "No change, no change, no change." The Globe and Mail says we have to have a change; we must have the crash education programs; so that we can turn out 5,000 nurses a year instead of the present 2,500 in Ontario. I presume the figures are relative for the rest of Canada, but we must have an increase in salaries in order to attract girls into this profession. The incentives held out through the legislation we are now discussing will help attain that end, and I would

point out to the 10 departments of education in the country that the federal government is willing to consider adapting these grants to nursing education under the heading of technical and vocational guidance.
I had not intended to make any reference to the comments of the hon. member for Ontario (Mr. Starr), the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Coates) and the hon. member for Waterloo North (Mr. Weichel), in which they were claiming great credit for having introduced this idea of technical and vocational training assistance. If they were getting satisfaction out of the claim it is quite satisfactory with me; but when the hon. member for Port Arthur (Mr. Fisher) stood up this afternoon and stated he well remembered the day in 1960 when the former administration had brought in this great assistance to technical and vocational guidance, I became a little provoked. Surely he remembers that great Canadian, C. D. Howe, who as long ago as 1942 introduced technical and vocational assistance to the schools of the provinces of Canada, in order to get aircraftsmen and air technical crews to make the R.C.A.F. the finest fighting air force in the world.
We have no objection to those who fanned into flame in 1960 the embers of the vocational assistance act of C. D. Howe which operated from 1942 to 1947. I know whereof I speak, because after the war I was able to secure a grant, with the co-operation of the hon. member for High Park (Mr. Cameron) who was then in the house, of $700,000 to help build the George Harvey vocational school in the riding of York South. That was the last grant made under the vocational assistance wartime act; and that was in 1947. There is no finer technical school in the province than the George Harvey vocational school, and it was made possible, I would advise the hon. member for Port Arthur, by the genuine and generous co-operation of the then hon. member for Port Arthur.


David Réal Caouette: Mr. Speaker, I would be angry with myself if I did not take part in this debate on Bill C-105 which provides for an increased federal participation in technical and vocational training in Canada.
The purpose of the measure is the further development of manpower and the increase of employment opportunities-


Mr. MacNaught:: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, and I am sorry to make this point of order because I enjoy very much listening
Vocational Training Assistance Act to the hon. member speaking, but I believe he has already spoken in this debate this afternoon.


David Réal Caouette: No, sir.


John Watson MacNaught: I am sorry.


David Réal Caouette: This afternoon, I was dealing with the motion put forward by the hon. member for Timiskaming (Mr. Peters).


Joseph-Alphonse-Anaclet Habel: For once you are right.


David Réal Caouette: I forgive the minister for his interruption. It will help me a bit in my comments.
Mr. Speaker-
-"as means towards the further development of manpower.
(a)	through general education"
-which, in our opinion, is under the exclusive jurisdiction of the Canadian provinces, according to their education system.
(b)	through vocational training.
Here is the definition of vocational training: "To train people who will become an asset in the development of our resources and the establishment of new industries.
(c)	The agreements authorized by the statute.
For those agreements, see subsection (b) of section 3 of the act at page 38 which provides this:
For the training of persons in technical or vocational courses given in regular secondary schools in the province where such training is given as a part of the regular secondary school program.
The purpose of this act, according to the resolution that was discussed before the dinner recess, is about the same as that advocated in the resolution or the notice of motion.
In this case, it would be a matter of encouraging people 50 or 60 years of age to go back to school so that our unemployed may acquire new knowledge by attending high schools or vocational and technical schools of the province or the country.
Mr. Speaker, that is, I think, federal interference in the provincial field of secondary education, in the field of basic education which will make it possible to train technicians.
In the province of Quebec, the education system is not the same as in the other provinces. That is why the federal legislation, so far, has helped the other provinces to a greater extent than Quebec.
Consequently, will Quebec have to adapt its education system to the federal system? Or is it impossible to set up here in Ottawa an education system that would adapt itself to each province's system? That is all we are asking for in our province.
Statistical data establish, without any doubt, that with the exception of Quebec, all

Vocational Training Assistance Act the provinces have benefited from that act. Why is it so? Probably because assistance to Quebec is necessarily limited to vocational schools placed under the aegis of the department of youth to which the Quebec schools are responsible. Our federal government is Interfering in an educational field which should be placed exclusively under provincial jurisdiction.
In order to treat the province of Quebec equitably, we should allow that province to develop its own system of vocational training.
If the government decided to contribute 90 per cent instead of 75 per cent of the cost of education at the secondary, primary, technical and vocational levels in some provinces or all across Canada, the grants should be paid to the province which should be free to use that money as it pleases and to allocate the amounts where the money is needed most.
The purpose of this bill is also to improve employment opportunities. Well, as I said this afternoon, everybody is keen on improving employment opportunities, but despite the efforts of everyone to achieve the highest level of employment in Canada, the number of unemployed is going up and at the same time production is increasing. Why? Because we have to face automation.
It already existed in 1950 and it is still with us in 1963. We will not settle the problem of automation by trying to create more jobs because the matter is to decide whether machinery, or automation, was invented to serve man or man was created to serve the machine. If development, science and automation were created to serve the human being, the human person, let us try and find another system than full employment which is an untenable solution in the present system because it has no respect for the human being.
We respect the very existence of progress, of science, of automation and, yesterday, the Minister without Portfolio, the hon. member for Matapedia-Matane (Mr. Tremblay), stated this in Quebec before the young Liberals:
We have a complex problem in Canada.
He claimed there were quacks going around the country and attempting to suggest solutions.
I see the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Deschatelets) is applauding. It is surely because he can readily understand the ideas put forth by the hon. member for Matapedia-Matane. Here is what the hon. member said, and I quote:
While continuing to accuse one another, the two clans will keep on proposing the "alleged Social Credit solution" to the problems now facing Canada, either in the Thompson version or, with Gregoire undertones, in the Caouette version.

Can you imagine, Mr. Speaker, an economist making such a statement-


An hon. Member:: Minister of what?


David Réal Caouette: That, nobody knows yet. It is probably because he makes speeches like that at cabinet meetings that his future remains to be decided.
Mr. Speaker, a little further on, the minister said:
Social Credit took advantage of the hard times which Mr. John Diefenbaker brought with him when he came to office in 1957. A country with increasing unemployment despite tremendous natural resources was a good place to spread a Social Credit doctrine which called such a situation absurd.
He calls the situation absurd. I congratulate the minister for saying so. It is true the situation is absurd when one considers our enormous potential.
May I remind the minister that hard times were not created by the members of the Social Credit party, but entirely through the implementation of the Liberal doctrine or that of the Conservative party within the Canadian nation.
And the minister added, a little further, talking about charlatanism:
The Minister without Portfolio denounced the charlatanism in the measures advocated by the Social Crediters and their promise to distribute money to one and all.
Mr. Tremblay sees there an exploitation of the people's misery because it creates a temptation.
Quite true, it creates a temptation. People going through hard times are tempted to get out of them. Let the minister show us that the Liberal party is able to solve the problem and propose a solution other than Bill C-105, which wants to make professionals out of our unemployed, who will remain professional unemployed.
Then, if the Liberal party can provide each and every Canadian with at least the necessities of life, the right to live, I, the member for Villeneuve, personally undertake to vote for the Liberal legislation, when it is introduced.
Mr. Speaker, we are not the only ones today to propose unusual solutions. I admit that our suggestions do not jibe with the present system but we have had others, not only from those who play at politics but from people in trade, in industry, from sociologists and economists.
I have here a statement, made by Mr. John Snyder, president of the United States industrial corporation, published in the Western Producer of October 31, which reads as follows:

Mr. John I. Snyder, Jr., chairman and president of United States Industries Inc., was the man who

really focused the sense of urgency. His company makes automated equipment. It is now, I understand, busy developing computer systems to take control of the already automated factories, shoving the need for human decisions back a whole stage further.
His company finances the American foundation on automation and employment for reasons which he acknowledges, are practical as well as humanitarian. He talked bluntly of a 'lost generation' growing up in the United States 'with no jobs and no hope'.

Conditions are the same in the United States.

It includes the young 'for whom there are no opportunities,' and the older workers who have no hope of learning to cope with new machines.
Mr. Snyder emphatically contradicted most of the myths with which most of us have tried to console ourselves.
It is not true, he said, that the new technologies will provide as many jobs making machines as those machines displace. Machines will cut down the jobs in present factories; they will reduce the number of new jobs; and the 'vertical integration' of automated plants will mean closing down many small plants, such as parts suppliers.
It is not true that retraining will solve the problem:-

This is a direct attack against Bill C-105. [Text]
-nor that it will take many people to build and maintain automated equipment; not that increased mobility will solve the problem by moving workers to new locations.

For instance, in 1932, Jacques Maritain wrote the following in "Les droits de l'homme et la loi naturelle" which I trust, the Minister without Portfolio, the hon. member for Mata-pedia-Matane has read:
In other words, one should not only consider the law that human labour tends to free itself from servitude. Freedom from physical hardship corresponds to other rights of the social person which numerous forms of social assistance and the old age security program are supposed to guarantee and will no doubt better guarantee if those measures are pluralist in nature (which enable the state to play a role however reduced) than if they are state-inspired.
And a still more profound right requires that everyone, as joint heirs of the common weal, should have his free share-
Note those words, "free share". And not through loans in New York, in Chicago or Boston. Let us use the Bank of Canada, Mr. Speaker.
*-his free share of the essential goods, both material and spiritual, brought by civilization to the extent that the community and its organized groups can provide their use free of charge-
Not through mortgage or indebtedness, but for nothing.
Vocational Training Assistance Act
-to the human persons of whom it is made up, thus helping them to free themselves of material needs and to move forward through a life of reason and virtue.
Jacques Maritain wrote this in 1932. In 1934, the originator of our system, Major Douglas, wrote:
I would advise my hon. friend, the member for Matapedia-Matane, to read this important work by Major C. H. Douglas. This is what he says:

The objective of an industrial system.
In attacking an engineering problem the first point we settle, with as much exactness as possible, is our objective. No engineer observer of the discussions which take place in political and lay circles on the industrial problems of the present day can fail to be struck with the fact that the problem itself is rarely stated with any clearness. For instance, the paramount difficulty of the industrial system is commonly expressed as that of unemployment. Therefore the suggestion involved is that the industrial system exists to provide employment, and fails. Those who are engaged in the actual conduct of industry, however, are specifically concerned to obtain a given output with a minimum of employment, and in fact, a decreasing amount of employment. Consequently, those who are talking about industry and those who are conducting industry have in their minds objectives which are diametrically opposed and incompatible.
The main objective of industry is not to find jobs for people nor to offer jobs to Canadian workers or the unemployed in Canada. Industry is supposed to offer services and goods at the lowest possible price in order to be in a competitive position on the domestic and international markets. Those, Mr. Speaker, are industry's true objectives in any country in the world, including our own.
What about industrialization in the bill we are studying? It is all very well to speak of the government's intention to create new industries, to finance the training of our unemployed and to find jobs for them. But after these unemployed have gone through vocational training, in two, three, four or five years, automation or mechanical progress will already have eliminated the need for them.
Mr. Speaker, industry must face competition, it must lower its production costs for it must sell its products, and that is why Canadian industry makes such little progress.
It is true that our industralists are invited to come and settle elsewhere; but the government has become aware of the fact that they do not seem interested. Why? Because, at the present time our industries find some difficulty in selling their products. Management is thus naturally wondering about the advisability of increasing production, or of creating new industrial branches, for it knows that sales are slow. It goes without saying that we have to set a limit on our production, because the consumers are reluctant to buy.

Vocational Training Assistance Act
Mr. Speaker, what is the difference between the automation system and the system under which we have lived for so many years? Within the framework of our present system, but taking into account the needs of automation, could we find enough jobs for everyone and hope for full employment? It seems to be mathematically and materially impossible; it is impossible, on the national scale, to attain full employment with the introduction of new machines, of automation.
Unions demand better wages for their members, and we are with them on that point. However, at the same time, industries partly close down, and lay off some of their workers to replace them by machines.
Under those circumstances, what could we do to find jobs for everyone?
Trade unions ask for a reduction of the work week and we wonder, and rightly so, what would be the impact of the implementation of such a policy.
Let us take, for instance, the case of an automated modern plant employing 500 men whose average yearly salary is $4,000. This means a total of $2 million distributed as salaries every year by an automated industry.
On the other hand, let us take another plant, which has not been modernized and which employs 1,000 men (instead of 500) and who receive also $4,000 a year. The operating costs of this plant would amount to $4 million instead of $2 million.
By cutting the work week in half, in order that both plants may attain equal production the following result would follow. In the plant employing 1,000 men instead of 500, reducing by half the working hours would cost $4 million a year.
Now, in the second plant which is not automated and not modernized, and which employs 2,000 men instead of 1,000 expenditures for salaries would amount to $8 million a year. The inevitable result would be that the non-automated plant would have to close shop and yield its place to another plant more modern and better adjusted to new conditions.
It can then be seen that the trend is toward automation and it is to that situation that the government does not wish, so it seems, to adjust itself; it is the problem which the government does not wish to see. In short, it is the problem which our economist, the hon. member for Matapedia-Matane, does not want to face and which he does not want to consider important.
If the Social Credit continues its imposture, as claims my good friend from Matapedia-Matane, who finds fault with us, at least this
[Mr. Caouette.l

solution of our party is better than the one which he offers himself or the one which the government brings in.
It is proposed to give assistance for the education of the poor. Now, will this abolish poverty? I submit that such plans were not proposed in 1939, 1940 and 1942 for the technical and vocational training of our citizens who were going to fight for us on the battlefields in Europe. Nobody inquired then whether the young people had been to high school or not. But work was found for everyone: making munitions, setting up the war industry, making cannons, shells, in short, destructive engines.
Why not direct these forces to the construction of peace machines today. Why not direct to this ideal those young people who, at that time, were perhaps two or three years old, but are now 25, 26 or 27?
Mr. Speaker, our country has tremendous assets, but people do not want to face the problem. They get round it. They procrastinate. They waste their time seeking solutions without issue.
Bill C-105 aims at promoting the building of technical or vocational schools so that we may be able to raise the educational level of both our young and older people. But the result will nevertheless be the same as the one we have to face today.
When we meet again in ten years from now, whether it be here or outside this house, we will still face the same problem. As long as the automation problem cannot be considered and settled more responsibly than it is now by the government in office, we will not be able to solve it.
In a book entitled "Automation: position et proposition", Mr. Georges Levard, president of the Confederation francaise des syndicats Chretiens, deals with this problem. What does he suggest? A social income produced automatically by the automatic factory. As a matter of fact, here is what we read in his book:
But there, the essential innovation that automation will compel society to introduce in the field of salaries or, more precisely, of distribution of purchasing power, is not yet emphasized.
Mr. Speaker, I suggest that my good friend from Matapedia-Matane read this article. I continue:
Since the beginning of mankind, there has been a direct connection, although it was not necessarily exclusive or easy to figure out, between the amount of human work needed for the production of an article or its value. Indeed, that conclusion represents for Marx, who was not the first one to come by it, an important part of his economic doctrine. Now, at best, in an unattainable situation, one can imagine an automated factory with a considerable production, without manpower having any significant part to play. Systems for the long range adjustment of prices and salaries will no longer

work, for because of automation, the rational remuneration of the staff employed and the importance of production do not compare any more.
Neither is that phenomenon completely new, but its magnitude calls for more drastic solutions than that which somehow or other have been invented for the machine-age production. If we are to avoid a bottleneck, we have to assume that the automated enterprise will have to "breed" buying power at the same time as it produces.
Mr. Speaker, that is what Social Credit has been calling for, suggesting and preaching for nearly 30 years now in Canada.
And the author continues:
But it will not be possible for that buying power to be allocated in its greater part to persons according to the part they will have played in production. It can only be a social buying power, or, in other words, socialized, that is placed at the disposal of mass consumption. In other words, it must be upheld that social contributions, now based on salary, will have to be increasingly based on production.
Mr. Speaker, that means that social contributions will no longer have to be based on salary, but rather on production.
And as soon as the Canadian government, whether it is a Liberal, a Conservative, a Social Credit or any other government, agrees that the income of the individual must be based on production, then our friends on the other side will stop laughing at our idea of a national dividend to all and everyone.
The same remarks apply to our friends to the right who, also, will stop laughing at Social Credit proposals to the effect that the means to attract industry is to expand industry in Canada through the establishment of supplementary buying power in the hands of the consumers.
We suggest the vital minimum to be guaranteed to all and everyone, inasmuch as the national production can permit, and it does. There is not one single hon. member who questions the huge possibilities which we have in Canada to guarantee to all and everyone a vital minimum. Such is, in my opinion, the greatest contribution a government could make to the administration of public affairs in its own country. At the same time, it would be an example to give other countries facing the most abject poverty and which are unable to develop. Why? Because they do not have the financial means to do so.
Mr. Speaker, I believe-


Mr. Nasserden:: The remarks of the hon. gentleman are very interesting but they certainly do not relate to the measure now before us.


David Réal Caouette: I am sorry, but I think all my remarks are pertinent to the bill we are discussing.
Vocational Training Assistance Act [Translation]
Mr. Speaker, Bill C-105 is a measure to further the development of manpower, but we must have the possibility of employing that further developed manpower, and that is just what we do not have.
Now, in closing, I submit that Social Credit does propose an acceptable solution, with all due respect to the economists who are going around the province of Quebec shouting that we are rousing people up, just like my friend from Lotbiniere (Mr. Choquette), who says Social Creditistes in Quebec are demagogues.
Mr. Speaker, it is not a queston of demagogy. It is the livelihood of the people of our country that is at stake. We are not proposing impossible things, no, but we want Bill C-105 to be of some use.
However, we cannot see how this bill will help solve the problems facing us in this house and which faced those who were here before us ten and 15 years ago. Even during the depression years of 1929 to 1939, those same problems were already with us.
Today, we are faced with the problem of having an immense surplus production together with the material impossibility for Canadian consumers to buy those products.
Mr. Speaker, I maintain that the present government is in a position to introduce a bill which would put finance at the service of the Canadian people, which, instead of providing for an opportunity to get an education, an opportunity we already have, would help solve another problem, that created by the men of 40 to 45 years of age who do not have the required knowledge today to follow secondary school courses. They might have the aptitudes required, but not the required knowledge. That is another problem. And we are faced with that problem at the present time: men of over 45 who can no longer find a job in Canada.
Mr. Speaker, let the government come forward with a definite measure which would concern each and every one in Canada and would, at last, put finance at the service of the Canadian people.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Speaker, I have just a few remarks to make. We, on this side of the house, are ready to adopt the bill this evening, before ten o'clock.
However, I should hope that at the coming federal-provincial conference, the federal government would leave the provinces free to accept or refuse the joint programs. If a province does not wish to sign an agreement on a joint program, it should be given, and without conditions, the funds it will need to administer its own program.

Vocational Training Assistance Act
I will now show why it would be logical to do so. For instance, the province of Quebec has nearly 15 training centres and the federal legislation does not take into account those institutions which can be found only in the province of Quebec.
I protest against the statements made this afternoon by the hon. member for Port Arthur (Mr. Fisher). I feel that education comes under the exclusive jurisdiction of the provinces, which must take their responsibilities in that respect. The federal government should not interfere in that field.
I have here a volume of the report submitted by the royal commission on constitutional problems. A few years ago, an inquiry was held which gave all the Quebec organizations an opportunity to express their views and their wishes. Mr. Speaker, I should like to refer to pages 288 and 289 of volume 2, book 3, of 1956:
The province of Quebec and the federal grants
This scrupulous adherence to the principle of federalism has been clearly obvious and has imposed heavy sacrifices in the field of taxation, especially as regards the question of grants, which is the main issue in the controversy between the federal government and the provinces.
Like the other provinces, the province of Quebec accepts the statutory grants provided for in the constitution. It even went as far as to ask, in 1887 and in 1907, that they be reviewed. Those grants were established to compensate for taxes which the provinces were compelled to surrender: without such a surrender, confederation would not have been possible. It should not be wondered therefore that the provinces seek from time to time to have this compensation adjusted according to the rights yielded, as their extent is being revealed. There is nothing in this contrary to the confederation act of 1867.
The same does not apply to conditional and fiscal grants which the federal government has made, especially in the last 20 years, one of the instruments of its constitutional policy. Fiscal grants are paid by way of compensation for taxes the surrender of which by the provinces is in no way essential to the stability of the state. In fact, it is the very opposite that is true: as long as the federal system is not abolished, the proper operation of the state requires that the provinces keep taxation powers proportionate to the extent of their constitutional obligations. The province of Quebec preferred to do without substantial revenues rather than agree to a system of grants involving a lessening of its autonomy and a surrender of its prerogatives.
Listen closely to this, Mr. Speaker:
If the province agreed at times to the payment of conditional grants, as in the case of technical training and old age pensions (1st stage), it is due to the false position in which the interference of the federal government in fields outside of its jurisdiction unavoidably place the provinces.
By refusing federal grants as it did in various circumstances, the province of Quebec not only deprives itself of amounts that are being made available to it but contributes, through federal taxes, to the amounts taken advantage of by the other provinces which are less concerned about federalist loyalty.
In short, and this is the major point to remember in these history pages, in taxation as in all other

constitutional matters, Quebec's stand has never changed: it abides by the interpretation according to the spirit of federalism of the agreement concluded in 1867.
Well, Mr. Speaker, I think that if after so many years, we still have to contend with difficulties arising from the federal government, it is especially on account of its joint plans which, by the way, are quite satisfactory to the nine English provinces-I do not blame them, it is their business-but the province of Quebec is not interested, and as long as the federal government will not find a solution to save the province of Quebec from joint plans, I maintain that confederation, in my opinion, will be jeopardized.
That is why I am asking the federal government and the provinces at the next federal-provincial conference to find the necessary means to provide a final solution.
As I said earlier, if the English speaking provinces wish to enter into joint plans, it is their business; but if the province of Quebec does not want to do so, then, the funds owing to Quebec should be handed back unconditionally.
Mr. Speaker, incidentally, I again read in newspapers, a statement made by the Quebec government and the federation of municipalities blaming the federal government for violating provincial autonomy with respect to municipal loans.
In addition, I listened Sunday night, that is last night, to a press conference given by the President of the Privy Council (Mr. La-montagne) who was being questioned by newspapermen.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Speaker, such a reaction on the part of hon. members opposite indicates, I believe, that many members on government benches have not listened to the hon. President of the Privy Council.


An hon. Member:: He was very good.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: He had quite a time answering questions. His answers were rather shifty and contradictory, and I shall prove it.


An hon. Member:: Very well, prove it.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Speaker, I wish to refer to the summary of the press conference given by the President of the Privy Council, which was published in today's issue of La Presse. Briefly here is what the President of the Privy Council had to say about the forthcoming federal-provincial conference and the federal government's policy:
Ottawa will abolish some joint programs but it will create others.
In my opinion, Mr. Speaker, that is an inconsistent policy. I feel that, if the federal

government wants, as stated by the President of the Privy Council, to venture into other joint programs, it will assume that responsibility and will be hearing more bitter criticism from the Quebec ministers and the elite of that province, protesting that new intrusion by the federal government in a field of provincial jurisdiction, that of Quebec in particular.
I hope, Mr. Speaker, that the federal government, in co-operation with the provinces, might open a new period of liberation through the forthcoming federal-provincial conference.


An hon. Member:: It has already started.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: And not only begin to give options with regard to joint programs, but also answer not only Mr. Lesage's ultimatum but that of other provinces. Mr. Lesage asked for $200 million to meet the needs of the province of Quebec in the cultural, educational, economic and social fields but the other provinces should also be able to receive the money they need, and each should get its relative share in order to be able to grow within confederation.
In my opinion, it is by decentralizing and giving back to the provinces the power to levy their own taxes that Canada will grow stronger, more united and greater.


Mr. Cote (Longueuil):: Would the hon. member for Joliette-L'Assomption-Montcalm allow me another question?


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: About Mr. Pierre Laporte? With pleasure, because he blames the federal government-


Joseph Julien Jean-Pierre Côté: Would the hon. member allow me to put my question?


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Go ahead.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member wants to make a speech, it will give me great pleasure to listen to him because he has been very silent in this house since his election.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Order. The hon. member for Joliette-L'Assomption-Montcalm will recognize that his comments are not in order.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Let the hon. member for Longueuil make a speech.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Order. The hon. member for Portneuf.


Mr. Jean-Louis Frenette (Portneuf):: Mr. Speaker, there are times when it is really interesting to take part in debates and today's discussion seems doubly interesting, because it proves once more that everyone agrees on the seriousness of the unemployment problem.
Here, I should like to refer to an address delivered by the Minister of Labour (Mr. Vocational Training Assistance Act MacEachen) in this house on June 10. I think we all agree with what he said. I quote:
The government is convinced that we cannot continue to tolerate the excessively high levels of unemployment of recent years. Over the past five years, unemployment has averaged 6.6 per cent of the labour force.
And he went on:
The stimulation of employment and the reduction of unemployment are major problems which the government is determined to tackle vigorously.
We must recognize, Mr. Speaker, that in the last few weeks, the government has launched a very unusual effort to find a solution to that especially thorny matter.
And the minister went on:
It is now widely recognized that the growth of our economy and the stimulation of employment are greatly facilitated by the improvement of the quality and skills of youth entering the labour force and by the adaptation of workers to constantly changing job requirements. The need for adaptation and retraining of our labour force is a consequence of a much stepped up rate of technological change in recent years.
In fact, Mr. Speaker, Bill C-105, dealing with training of workers, technical and vocational training, should prompt us to give more consideration to the unemployment problem.
Of course, like everybody else, we realize we are faced with a problem due to a large degree to automation which is constantly spreading and takes jobs away from our workers. Consequently, that is one of the causes of unemployment.
There are also the demands of industry for a more skilled and more specialized labour.
I think that the bill which is really aimed at the training of that manpower, comes at an opportune time and will allow people who are affected by almost chronic unemployment to train for new jobs which will meet the needs of industry.
Past results were good in nine Canadian provinces; I make one exception: the province of Quebec. Great numbers of workers were trained and given new jobs, thanks to the training received in special training schools. Everywhere in Canada schools were erected and they have certainly become an asset for those provinces.
The fact is that a delicate problem remains, that of the province of Quebec. I shall not labour the point further because other speakers have talked about it eloquently enough so as to make the Minister of Labour and members of the cabinet realize that our situation is not similar to that of the other provinces, that we are a separate province. And, as the hon. member for Joliette-L'Assomption-Montcalm (Mr. Pigeon) pointed out so well, the fact remains that Quebec, on
4894	HOUSE OF
Vocational Training Assistance Act account of the terms of the legislation, did not enjoy fully its benefits. Special arrangements ought to be taken so that Quebec workers may enjoy the benefits of the legislation.
I readily understand, Mr. Speaker, that it is difficult, at a given moment, to legislate in order to meet the needs of Canadians from coast to coast, the needs of a country made up of two different nations. But I think that we should not forget the fact that we have rights and privileges, and that we want to keep them.
Mr. Speaker, I would like also to take advantage of these few minutes to make suggestions to the Minister of Labour with regard to the training of technical labour. In my opinion, the Minister of Labour would benefit greatly from further consultation with the labour organizations of the country in order to receive from them appropriate suggestions with regard to labour problems and, in particular that which we are dealing with at this time, that is, technical and vocational training.
It seems that there is an increasing tendency towards centralization, in short greater importance is given to the central government. But I think that if this government really wants to assume its responsibilities and attain its objectives it must necessarily call upon these in-between bodies that are labour organizations and movements.
Mr. Speaker, it is an undeniable fact that we must gather up all our energies in order to find a solution to the unemployment problem. Workers' training, of course, is one of the solutions-but not the only one-which is before us tonight. In my opinion, the special committee established by the Senate, to inquire into the matter of manpower and employment, prompts us precisely to work in that direction. If I may, I shall quote one of the findings of that committee. Here it is:
Unskilled labour made up a greater proportion of the total monthly registration in metropolitan districts and large industrial areas with a labour surplus, than in the two other kinds of surplus areas in the labour market.
Obviously, the members of that committee found that in the communities where workers are unskilled, unemployment is higher and more acute. We should therefore pool all our resources to train qualified labour, which will not only answer the needs of industry to the greater benefit of industrial enterprise, but will also be of advantage to the working class and, consequently, the whole Canadian people.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: I remind the house that the minister will now close the debate.


Allan Joseph MacEachen: In beginning my brief remarks at this stage of the proceedings on this bill, I wish to thank all hon. members for their contributions to this debate. I want to say a special word of thanks to my fellow Nova Scotian, the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Coates), for his kind remarks as he began his speech this afternoon.
The debate has ranged over a very wide field, in so far as any of the suggestions that have been made relate to technical and vocational training, they will be given the fullest possible consideration by the Department of Labour. As hon. members will realize, the general framework for the national system of technical and vocational training is set forth in the act respecting technical and vocational training assistance. The act as a whole is not before us. We have before us an amending bill, confined to a number of specific items in the act itself. There are five of these items.
One amendment increases the federal contribution of living allowances paid by a province to unemployed persons receiving training, from 75 per cent to 90 per cent. This increases that portion of the federal contribution for this phase of the training program to 90 per cent, or an increase of 15 per cent.
In addition to that we propose by another amendment to increase the contribution made by the federal government to costs incurred by provinces in training programs in industry, from 50 per cent to 75 per cent. Hon. members will appreciate that relatively little progress has been made in this important field of training in industry. For that reason we expect to give this phase of technical and vocational training a greater impetus by increasing the percentage assistance from 50 per cent to 75 per cent.
It might be of interest to hon. members to know that this particular phase of the program will extend to training programs in industry covering apprenticeship training, the problem which engaged the attention of the hon. member for Peterborough (Mr. Stenson). This will apply to basic educational development, to programs in industry providing basic education to employees, to place them in a position to acquire skill in advanced jobs or advanced technology.
The third phase of this training program in industry is to provide assistance for training to meet prospective automation. Even though the hon. member for Villeneuve (Mr. Ca-ouette) dealt with automation in his speech, he did not relate his comments to this provision of the amending bill, which will allow employers to collaborate with the provinces, with federal assistance, to accelerate training in industry for employees whose skills may

become obsolete as a result of automation and who, if there is a response to this program, can be placed in a position to acquire additional skills.
The third aspect of the amending bill is to extend the time period for the additional 25 per cent for the provision of capital facilities for technical and vocatonal training. There is no doubt that a great expansion in training facilities has taken place under this program. On Tuesday of last week I assisted at the opening of a new college of trades and technology at St. John's, Newfoundland, a splendid institution that will have a great impact on the economy of that province. I want to tell the hon. member for Ontario (Mr. Starr) that on that occasion the premier of Newfoundland expressed publicly his appreciation of the work and co-operation he had received from the hon. member for Ontario during his period as minister of labour.


Mr. Nowlan:: You built more schools for him, Mike, than he ever built himself.


Allan Joseph MacEachen: As I say, the premier took that opportunity to express the appreciation of the government of Newfoundland to the hon. member for Ontario, whose efforts in this field have not gone unrecognized, at least in that province of Canada.
The purpose of this particular amendment, as hon. members will know, is to permit all provinces of Canada to participate to the maximum achieved up until March 31 of this year by the province of Newfoundland. The per capita contribution of the federal government in the age group 15 to 19 years reached $480 for the province of Newfoundland. This amendment will allow all provinces to achieve that maximum up until the expiry of the agreement in 1967.
For example, it will permit the province of Quebec, whose per capita quota is $51, to participate to the extent of $480 per capita in that age group. This amendment is of particular importance to the province of Quebec where many additional millions of dollars will be made available for the expansion of training facilities. The same is true to a lesser extent for all other provinces, except the province of Newfoundland.
The additional two amendments are to increase the numbers on the advisory council to permit greater participation by employer and union groups, and finally to provide an honorarium for the chairman.
The increased rate of assistance for training, especially training the unemployed, and for training programs in industry, underlines the urgent priority the government attaches to these aspects of the Canadian system of technical and vocational training. We cer-
Vocational Training Assistance Act tainly support the priority of these aspects of the program which was attached to them by the hon. member for Port Arthur (Mr. Fisher), who was concerned that our training program ought to be directed towards providing skills and training for jobs.
In his speech the hon. member for Port Arthur-and I may say his speech was very interesting to me-regarded the emphasis placed on the expansion of secondary school facilities as at the expense, in his view, of technical and trades schools. It may be that varying emphasis has been placed on secondary schools in particular provinces, but in general the approach has been balanced, and there has been a balanced program of expansion in secondary schools and in technical and trade schools.
It ought to be pointed out, of course, that the federal government participates in the secondary school program in order to support exclusively technical and vocational education and that aspect of the secondary school program which the federal government supports, namely technical and vocational education, enables students to enter the labour market more easily, and later to take more specialized training for employment. So, it is very wrong to suggest that an emphasis on secondary and vocational training is not job directed. It most certainly is.
I realize that this problem of technical and vocational training is a complex one. It might have been possible to have a general debate on the subject if the amending bill provided the opportunity. However, it does not. All I want to say in conclusion is that the national system of technical and vocational training is set out in the principal measure, the Technical and Vocational Training Assistance Act. It enables the federal government to enter into agreements with provincial governments to make substantial contributions to all aspects of technical and vocational training. There are ten aspects of technical and vocational training for which authority exists for the Minister of Labour to enter into agreements with the provinces. The emphasis given by any province to any particular program for which assistance is available is entirely up to the province itself. If any particular province has placed an emphasis on technical and vocational training at the secondary school level, that is a result of a decision by that province exercising its constitutional responsibility in that field.
The federal government has attempted to indicate its own estimate of priorities by the particular range and rates of contributions it has assigned under these various programs. Because we have attached urgent priority to the training of the unemployed and to training in industry we are proposing to increase the

Vocational Training Assistance Act rates of contribution from the federal treasury-in this field. I make these remarks in commentary on the plea that was made by the hon. member for Port Arthur (Mr. Fisher) for a national policy of technical and vocational training. The national framework is provided for in this act; the response is up to the province, exercising its own authority. In this field the federal government proposes; the provincial government disposes.


Mr. Depuiy Speaker:: Is the house ready for the question?


Some hon. Members:: Question.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Lamoureux in the chair.
On clause 1.
Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Chairman, I do not want to delay the passage of this legislation for more than a moment or two, but I wish to ask the minister this question. Can he inform the committee whether any of the provinces are using this legislation to train forest rangers, road locators, timber cruisers, lumber graders, first aid men, fire prevention crews, and cooks?


Mr. Pennell:: Mr. Chairman, I know that I shall best suit the inclination of the minister, the committee and myself if I offer my observations in the fewest and simplest words. It seems to me that on this question of training the unemployed there is a gap in the statistical information available to the department which is depriving the department of the full benefits of the legislation.
I placed upon the order paper at the close of the last parliament certain questions, and these were the answers I received. I noted, first of all, in the year 1961, that 38 per cent of the unemployed who had enlisted for training had failed to complete the course. It was encouraging to note that in 1962 the percentage of those who had failed to complete the course had been reduced to approximately 23 per cent. I was greatly concerned to learn the reason for there having been this high number of failures to complete the course. At this time the answer I received was, "Information not available". It is my respectful submission, Mr. Chairman, that this information is vital and necessary if we are to get the full benefit of this program.
When I asked for the number of unemployed who had finished the course and who had been able to secure jobs using the skills for which they had been trained, again I received the very disturbing answer, "Information not available". It is my further respectful submission that there could be no greater waste of public funds than to train


workers in skills for which there were no employment opportunities. This is friendly criticism, I may say to the hon. member for Ontario, because I will be the first to admit that the impact of automation has come so rapidly that it is impossible to keep abreast of it, and I can certainly appreciate the difficulty that was confronting him in the early stages of this most admirable legislation; but my plea to the minister is this: we must have more statistical information if we are to apply this course of training so that the workers may get the most out of it. In other words, it is my submission that the expenditure of public funds should be geared to the information we are obtaining in these reports. With those very few words, Mr. Chairman, I will resume my seat.


Mr. Beaule:: Mr. Chairman, the legislation now before us, to amend the technical and vocational training act, is contrary to the educational system prevailing in Quebec.
I am, therefore, taking this opportunity to bring Quebec's claims to the minister's attention and explain the difference between the educational system in that province with regard to technical and vocational training compared with the other parts of Canada.
Mr. Chairman, among the main problems which labour circles are concerned with, unemployment in every form and job insecurity come first. To those problems may he added those created by automation, the training of our young people for work and the rehabilitation of the older workers who have been discharged as the result of new and advanced techniques.
It is currently said that this country and our province have known radical changes since the turn of the century, and that our economy, which was formerly centred on agriculture, has now become industrialized.
Within a few years, and more particularly following the economic development required by the war effort, and by developing the resource above and under ground, our country has become an industrial giant.
Amongst the chief problems we have to contend with in regard to automation, the primary one, in my opinion, is education, primary, secondary or university education as well as vocational training and adjustment. Everyone is aware that automation will require more engineers, more physicians, more mathematicians, more skilled machinists, more technicians of all sorts. It is certain that foremen will have to acquire more competence and that there will be new vocational qualifications required for the maintenance and repair trades. It is already a well-known fact

that our young people will be not be able to start their apprenticeship before having completed secondary education.
On the other hand, experience proves that the majority of teachers never worked in industry and that consequently they can hardly prepare young people to properly hold positions in industry. We are of the opinion that their academic level often leaves much to be desired, which is readily realized if one reads briefs submitted by teaching people. Hence teachers must have a better preparation and consequently it is extremely urgent to set up normal schools for technical training instructors, in order to emphasize quality as well as train a large enough teaching staff. Before being admitted to teach, teachers should spend two or three years in industry and should even be eligible for leave with pay to readjust themselves.
The training available at present in technical schools and technological institutes is complementary to primary and high school courses and is directly related to them through its academic requirements. Theoretical programs are devised so as to make pupils understand the whys and wherefores of everything, to instil principles and to give information. Practical courses are intended to make pupils understand the theoretical notions acquired in theory classes.
The so-called specialized training, at the outset, was devised to come to the rescue of young people who were leaving school prematurely for various reasons. Thus, Mr. Jean Delorme, the director of specialized training, could say that he had achieved his purpose when he had succeeded in securing for technical school students the equivalent of a ninth grade certificate.
The publicity given specialized training reveals, however, that such training is aimed at supplying "well trained operators", by technological schools, according to the leaflet on "specialized training" published under the signature of its general manager.
Having become what is called nowadays a technician, that is a graduate of a technological institute, is a starting point and not the ultimate end. According to the trade, it is only after a few years of post-graduate studies and practical experience supplied and gained in industry that the young man, after having tested his qualifications, will validly be able to consider himself a tradesman or a technician.
Too often, the public fancies that graduates who just completed their studies are experts in their specialties, that they can be full-fledged employees in their own right in industry and that they can give the same output as if they already had a few years' experience.
Vocational Training Assistance Act
Everyone knows that it is not so and that it will never be so, no matter how much the programs of the technological institutes are changed. Vocational training cannot be the exclusive responsibility of educational institutions. In fact, the latter can only provide basic training, since industry is the cornerstone of the whole system.
It follows that theoretical training is only a prerequisite to holding a job in a plant or on the site. It is on the job that one serves the apprenticeship that will permit one to become fully qualified in a particular trade.
In other words, theoretical training is nothing but an introduction to the apprenticeship which must be provided later, at the place of work, by the employer or the union.
Mr. Chairman, I should like to remind you that it is to apprenticeship that we owe the finest achievements both here and elsewhere: government buildings, bridges, dams, and numerous residential, industrial and business constructions which were carried out only through the efforts of a variety of trades and techniques.
Those men acquired their technical skill by serving their apprenticeship under skilled workers.
However, in view of the technical developments and the urgency of maximum production to meet competition, this formula has to be adapted constantly under conditions which are often difficult. That is why, at a certain moment, industry had to change its methods of production and go in for fractional production, chain production and exaggerated specialization with consequent loss of its traditional importance by apprenticeship.
In spite of everything, apprenticeship still has many advantages, namely a greater flexibility in adjusting to industrial needs and trade requirements. It provides an important part of sound learning by compelling the apprentice to live in the trade environment and working community in the factory, in the field or in the shop. As a result of the necessary physical and muscular effort, he acquires automatic movements required for the quick and sure performance of specialized work. It remains an important and reliable stage in the training of professional workers.
What is exactly a workshop school or a field school? Its purpose is to combine the practical training deemed essential to the practice of a trade and the theoretical instruction recognized as necessary to a full vocational training; to combine methods of teaching in order to make skilled workers better acquainted with the latest technical developments, thus enabling them to become genuine modern technicians; finally, to co-ordinate methods permitting and promoting in the

Vocational Training Assistance Act working environment theoretical instruction in keeping with the cultural needs of the workers.
Some industries try to bring about this coordination according to their needs and to the requirements of their output. They admit that without an active participation of industries to the setting up of true vocational training, it will be impossible to achieve worth-while results. In addition, as vocational training can only be developed in definite working conditions, it also implies the enlightened participation of unions.
Mr. Chairman, there is in Quebec the apprenticeship commission for vocational training. The immediate purpose of this legislation is to promote apprenticeship by the creation of commissions and vocational centres, through the co-operation of industrial and vocational groups and public authorities.
In our province, the expression "apprenticeship centre" generally refers to vocational training establishments directly under apprenticeship commissions.
The apprenticeship commission studies, develops and amends, as necessary, the theoretical and practical programs of each trade submitted by trade consulting committees and see that these programs are carried out.
The results of our apprenticeship system: in the industries, trades and crafts subject to an apprenticeship system, there was 30,727 apprentices divided among the following crafts, industries or services: barbers, hairdressers, commercial establishments, building industry, manufacturing industries, other industries and services.
Since training boards have been set up, the day and evening courses they provide have been taken by 48,521 apprentices and journeymen, as follows: automobile, 2,394; barbers and hairdressers, 4,620; construction, 31,484; footwear, 5,616; watchmaking, 175; printing, 4,232. Thus we see the important role played by the training boards which have been set up in the province of Quebec since the passage of the training assistance act in 1945.
Mr. Chairman, may I call it ten o'clock? [Text]


Mr. Siarr:: Mr. Chairman, I wonder whether, instead of calling it ten o'clock, we could carry on and try to expedite the passage of this bill.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Chairman, we would offer the suggestion that we sit by unanimous consent either until we finish the bill or until 10.15, whichever comes first.


Lucien Lamoureux: Is that agreed?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Jean Robert Beaulé: Mr. Chairman, we must therefore:
1.	Recognize the need to establish a school system which would provide vocational courses in accordance with the various levels of training required by the different occupations in each economic sector;
2.	Adapt those courses to the calibre of training required at each level in order to give to the young people an opportunity to acquire a basic vocational training in keeping with their aptitudes, and to the workers an opportunity to improve their skill while practising their trade;
3.	Recognize that what is taught in vocational schools is but a prelude to the training to be received in industry. Considered as the extension of formal schooling, on-the-job training should be able to meet the requirements of practical training for all categories of specialized workers.
4.	In view of the fact that the period of industrial training must include, for the young trainee, a reasonable guarantee of progress and adaptation, working conditions must always be regulated by collective contracts. Through such regulation, technical training is put to good use and, consequently, is put into effect to benefit the trainee.
5.	Training boards are just the right organizations to ensure that young trainees in technical schools will get the practical training needed in industry and to watch each individual's progress until he has acquired professional qualifications. By their registration, employment and control services and also by their qualifying examinations, they can well be considered as indispensable agencies to operate the transfer of the graduates from the vocational schools to the various industries they have chosen.
6.	The creation of an agency responsible for vocational education should not result in the establishment of government schools only. We should be able to take advantage of a system of various institutions supported by a variety of initiatives. Apprenticeship centres should continue to operate in accordance with their own character.
Mr. Speaker, I should like to move an amendment to clause 2.


[Stage Direction]
Clause agreed to.
On clause 2.
Michael Starr: This clause has to do with the raising of the federal government contribution from 50 per cent to 75 per cent. The assistance is being extended until March 31, 1967. I wonder if the minister could tell us from what date it will take effect.


Allan Joseph MacEachen: From March 31, 1963.


Michael Starr: In other words, it will be retroactive.
^r- Herridge: Has the minister any information on the question I asked with regard to possible overlapping?


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: All the categories the hon. member mentioned with respect to forestry are covered in the legislation. There are five provinces which participate at the rate of 50 per cent-New Brunswick, Ontario, Quebec, British Columbia and Alberta.


Jean Robert Beaulé: Mr. Chairman, since technical and vocational training means any form of teaching which prepares a person to hold a profitable job in primary or secondary industry or which enables him to get a better salary in the service industry, I should like to move the addition of the following paragraph (d) to section 2:
That, after having obtained the authorization of the provincial government, the government be empowered to sign with the representatives of private technical and vocational schools which are recognized and subsidized by the provincial governments and which give vocational training, agreements similar to those which were concluded with the department of education.


Lucien Lamoureux: It is moved by Mr. Beaule, seconded by Mr. Gauthier:
That the government be authorized to enter into agreements similar to those entered into with the department of education with representatives of private establishments of vocational and technical training which are recognized and subsidized by provincial governments and which provide technical training and this, after having obtained the approval of provincial governments.


Mr. Caron:: Such agreements with private establishments are unacceptable.


Lucien Lamoureux: If there is no objection taken to the regularity of the amendment I will put it to the committee now.


Allan Joseph MacEachen: I will not argue as to the regularity of the amendment, which proposes to permit the federal government to make agreements with private institutions. It seems to me this measure can reach into the activities of private institutions in any province through agreements which the Minister of Labour and the federal government might make with the provinces themselves. In this way we are respecting the integrity of the provinces by making the agreements directly with them. I am afraid the amendment cannot be accepted.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I think the amendment is an excellent one but I cannot resist saying that
28902-5-312
Business of the House
in my opinion this afterthought type legislation shows lack of forethought.


George Clyde Nowlan: It is after ten o'clock, too.
Amendment negatived: Yeas, 5; nays, 60.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Before the clause carries, I wish to withdraw my previous remarks. I misunderstood the terms of the amendment. My French is very poor.


[Stage Direction]
Clause agreed to.
On clause 3-Council established.
Michael Starr: This clause envisages the addition of five members to the existing advisory council. Can the minister tell the committee what areas of our population are expected to be represented by the additional five members?


An hon. Member:: The Liberal area.


George Clyde Nowlan: That is the truest thing you have said this session.


Allan Joseph MacEachen: The purpose is to increase the representation from employees, unions and employers. Those are the principal areas.


Mr. Dinsdale:: I have with some reluctance refrained from making a major speech on this bill but I should like to ask one question on this final clause. We all know that the problem in vocational education is, as in other areas of the education field, the lack of coordination. This is a situation which arises to a great extent because our educational system is such as to foster individuality within the provinces. I wonder how far this council will go in developing a national perspective or a philosophy of education which meets the needs of our rapidly changing situation?


[Stage Direction]
Clause agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported.
Mr. Deputy Speaker:: When shall this bill be
read the third time? Now?


Some hon. Members:: By leave.


Allan Joseph MacEachen: the third reading of the bill.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and bill read the third time and passed.

George Clyde Nowlan: Mr. Speaker, I wonder whether the acting house leader would indicate what the business of the house will be for tomorrow and as far as he can go after tomorrow.


John Watson MacNaught: The business of the house tomorrow will be as I outlined on Friday night, with the exception that the latter items

Business of the House
mentioned may not necessarily be in the order I outlined them on on Friday. As far as Wednesday is concerned, I regret I cannot say anything at this time.


George Clyde Nowlan: But the next order of business will be as outlined by the acting house leader on Friday night?


John Watson MacNaught: That is right.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Excuse me, I asked a question of the minister-


Some hon. Members:: No.


[Stage Direction]
It being fourteen minutes after ten o'clock the house adjourned, without question put.
[Stage Direction]
Tuesday, November 19, 1963