1963-10-02

[Stage Direction]
A message from His Excellency the Governor General transmitting supplementary estimates for the financial year ending March 31, 1964, was presented by Hon. Walter L. Gordon (Minister of Finance), read by Mr. Speaker to the house, and referred to the committee of supply.


Hon. Walter L. Gordon (Minister of Finance):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to table a report which I received from the tariff board. It is the first volume of the board's report on reference No. 130 relating to machinery and equipment used in the mining industry and the oil and gas industries.
Volume II has not yet been received from the board. I am tabling copies of the report in French and English, also a transcript of the evidence received at the public hearings. The volume which I am tabling contains recommendations relating to articles of oil field machinery, equipment and apparatus used in natural gas plants. These recommendations, together with those to be included in the part of the report which is not yet available, will receive full consideration by the government.



WORLD FAIR


Hon. J. P. Deschatelets (Minister of Public Works):: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to extend to all hon. members on behalf of the commissioners of the world fair corporation and His Worship the Mayor of Montreal a cordial invitation to visit the site of the world fair on Saturday morning and a reception and luncheon which will follow on St. Helen's island. I should be pleased if the whips of the various parties would let me know some time today how many propose to attend. We hope to be able to leave by air from Ottawa around 9.30 in the morning and be back around four o'clock in the afternoon. May I also extend this invitation on behalf of the 28902-5-199J
commissioners and the mayor of Montreal to the members of the press gallery.



INCOME TAX ACT

Walter Lockhart Gordon: Mr. Speaker, I move for leave to introduce Bill C-95, to amend the Income Tax Act, based on the Income Tax Act resolution concurred in by the house on July 23, 1963.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



PUBLIC SERVICE


Mr. L. J. Pigeon (Jolieite-L'Assompiion-Montcalm) moved: for leave to introduce Bill No. C-96, respecting employment of bilingual persons in the public service and in crown corporations.


Some hon. Members:: Explain.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: In so far as the thing is possible, this bill would provide for the suppression, within the civil service and the crown corporations, of the discrimination which marks at the present time the hiring and employment of French speaking personnel, and it would give preference to bilingual candidates.
Such a bill would surely be of much greater use than a royal commission.

Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



CANADIAN FLAG


Mr. J. N. Ormiston (Melville) moved: for leave to introduce Bill No. C-97, to adopt a national flag (Canadian red ensign).


Some hon. Members:: Explain.


James Norris Ormiston: The purpose of this bill, Mr. Speaker, is to adopt by formal act of parliament the Canadian red ensign as the national flag of Canada.


Mr. Speaker:: Is it the pleasure of the house that the hon. member shall have leave to introduce the said bill?

Proposed Legislation


Mr. Gregoire:: On division.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, on division, and bill read the first time.
Mr. Speaker:: When shall the said bill be read the second time?


Gilles Grégoire: In 20 years.


Mr. Speaker:: Next sitting of the house. Agreed?


Some hon. Members:: On division.



NATIONAL CENTENNIAL ACT


Right Hon. L. B. Pearson (Prime Minister) moved: that the house go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following resolution, which has been recommended to the house by His Excellency:
That it is expedient to amend the National Centennial Act to change its short title from the National Centennial Act to the Centennial of Confederation Act and to change the title of the national centennial administration to that of the centennial commission; to provide also that the centennial commission shall consist of a commissioner, an associate commissioner and not more than twelve directors in lieu of eight directors and to provide further for certain administrative changes in connection therewith.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


Hon. G. J. Mcllraiih (Minister of Transport) moved: that the house go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following resolution, which has been recommended to the house by His Excellency:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to amend the Railway Act, chapter 40 of the statutes of 1958, as amended by chapter 35 of the statutes of 1960, to permit certain grants to be made from the railway grade crossing fund for a further period of three years beyond January 31, 1964.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

George James McIlraith: that the house go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following resolution, which has been recommended to the house by His Excellency:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to amend the St. Lawrence Seaway Authority Act to provide that the authority, with the approval of the governor in council, may from time to time borrow money from Her Majesty or otherwise to

an aggregate that shall not exceed at any time $535,000,000 in lieu of $345,000,000 which it is already authorized to borrow by section 13 of the act.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


George James McIlraith: that the house go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following resolution, which has been recommended to the house by His Excellency:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to amend the Aeronautics Act to authorize the governor in council to make regulations prescribing charges for the use of any facility or service provided by or on behalf of the Minister of Transport for or in respect of aircraft or at an airport and to make such regulations as he deems necessary to impose upon the owners or operators, wherever resident, of any aircraft, charges for the availability during any flights of such aircraft within or outside Canada of any facility or service provided by or on behalf of the minister; to provide also for the payment of certain expenses of witnesses attending before boards of inquiry established by the minister to investigate aircraft accidents; and to make certain other amendments for the better administration of the act.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


Hon. Lionel Chevrier (Minister of Justice) moved: that the house go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following resolution, which has been recommended to the house by His Excellency:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to amend the Admiralty Act to permit the governor in council to authorize the payment of a salary not exceeding four hundred dollars per annum to a surrogate judge in admiralty and a salary not exceeding three hundred dollars per annum to a registrar in admiralty.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


George James McIlraith: that the house go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following resolution, which has been recommended to the house by His Excellency:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to amend the Canadian Overseas Telecommunication Corporation Act to extend the co-ordination of Canada's external telecommunication services to include co-ordination with nations outside the British commonwealth; to increase the number of directors of

the corporation by two; to provide for the appointment and salaries of vice presidents; and to provide further for certain consequential changes in connection with the administration of the act.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


Hon. A. J. MacEachen (Minister of Labour) moved: that the house go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following resolution, which has been recommended to the house by His Excellency:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to provide for the placing of the maritime transportation unions of Canada under the management and control of trustees; to provide for the establishment of the board of trustees of the maritime transportation unions consisting of a chairman and two other members; to provide for the payment of their remuneration and expenses and to authorize the employment and remuneration of such personnel as may be necessary for the carrying out of the duties and powers of the trustees under the said measure.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

['K. C. MacKay, Q.C., 5011 Mira road, Montreal, P.Q.']
Mr. Pickersgill:: The following questions are being answered today: 1,002, 1,003, 1,011, 1,062, 1,063, 1,075, 1,086, 1,097, 1,100, 1,109, 1,131, 1,133, 1,145, 1,149, 1,151, 1,153, 1,160.
If questions Nos. 477, 690 and 1,096 could be made orders for return the returns would be tabled immediately.
If Your Honour would be good enough to call starred question No. 1,064 I would ask that the remaining questions stand.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: On a question of privilege, I do not know why my starred question No. 1,054 is not answered. I think there is no problem about answering that question.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I will have inquiries made.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: I hope so.
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)



Mr. Fisher: 1.	For what post was competition 60-P-1D-133 held (a) at what grade (b) at what salary and (c) what were the duties as advertised?
2.	What was (a) the position held by the appointee to competition 60-P-1D-133 at the time of his promotion and (b) what was the position and grade held previously?


John Whitney Pickersgill: I have been given the following answers by the civil service commission:
1.	Chief purchasing agent, bilingual.
(a)	Purchasing agent 6.
(b)	$8,120-9,800.
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(c)	"Under general direction, as chief purchasing agent, to be responsible for the operation of the general purchasing division; to direct the purchase of approximately $18,000,000 yearly of stationery, paper, envelopes, office equipment, printing and plant equipment and supplies on behalf of this department and departments of the government subject to the Public Printing and Stationery Act; to direct the associated product research activities; to direct the maintenance of the necessary records and the preparation of related reports; to conduct surveys, report findings, and make recommendations; to organize and to establish procedures as necessary; to act for the superintendent of procurement, purchasing and stores in his absence and to perform other related duties as required."
2.	(a) Administrative officer 5.
(b) Administrative officer 4.


CIVIL SERVICE COMPETITION 56-P-1D-87
Mr. Fisher: Was competition 56-P-1D-87, dated September 10, 1956, a competition for the post of secretary, department of public printing and stationery, and if so (a) what were the duties as advertised (b) was it one of the duties of the departmental secretary to be responsible for the custody, opening and recording of tenders and, if so, specify in detail what other duties were performed which resulted in (i) a number of years experience in purchasing or procurement (ii) a number of years experience in work related to purchasing or procurement (iii) specifically what duties were performed relative to purchasing or procurement (iv) what specific duties were performed at the planning or co-ordinating level of purchasing or procurement or work related to purchasing or procurement and (c) are the duties of the departmental secretary as listed on competition 56-P-1D-87, dated September 10, 1956, listed exactly the same, word for word, on competition 61-P-1D-38, dated March 14, 1961, for the post of departmental secretary vacated by appointee to competition 60-P-1D-133 and (d) were any duties relative to purchasing added to 61-P-1D-38?


John Whitney Pickersgill: I have been given the following answers by the civil service commission:
1.	Yes.
(a) "Under general direction, to act as executive assistant to the queen's printer and the assistant queen's printer; to conduct correspondence with other departments and the general public on matters of departmental services; to gather and correlate information and prepare reports on matters of general departmental procedures and to maintain a manual of departmental policies and regulations; to review submissions to treasury board as to form and agreement with departmental policies; to edit the departmental annual report; to act as secretary of various departmental committees; to be responsible for the

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custody, opening and recording of tenders; to perform other related duties as required."
Cb) Yes.
(i)	Not a requirement.
(ii)	, (iii), (iv)-Other duties performed in work related to purchasing or procurement:
(A)	Participation in the establishment and application of policy and procedures re procurement, purchases (publications) and others,
(B)	Application of basic principles governing demands for tenders from buyers and the procedures to be followed,
(C)	Together with the superintendent, procurement purchasing and stores branch, to set up regulations and procedures to protect both tenderers and buyers,
(D)	Preparation and drafting of submissions to the treasury board for authorization to conclude purchase contracts-supplying explanations and information required in each case under the Financial Administration Act and the Public Printing and Stationery Act,
(E)	Contacts with departmental chiefs, senior officers of other departments and representatives of suppliers,
(F)	Direction and training of personnel, particularly in the publication's branch, where important changes were made,
(G)	Through contacts with representatives from United Kingdom and United States acquired knowledge of procurement methods of Her Majesty's stationery office and of the government printing office of the United States,
(H)	Knowledge of supplies and products purchased by the department since he participated actively, because of his duties, in almost every step of the purchase procedures,
(I)	Work of organization and co-ordination necessarily incumbent upon the secretary of the department in almost the entire field of its activity.
(c)	Yes.
(d)	Yes, as follows: "to act as departmental control officer on miscellaneous matters such as condemnation boards, declarations of surplus to crown assets, stationery, furniture, telephones, accidents involving damage to departmental property, travel regulations, translation, etc.; to be responsible for the proper functioning of the departmental central registry, mail room and messenger service; to act as chairman of the departmental suggestion award plan;"


WORDING OF TEST FOR CHIEF PURCHASING AGENT
Mr. Fisher: On what official devolved the responsibility of filling the vacant post of chief purchasing agent in the purchasing and stores branch and (a) was he the originator of the test of the competition (b) was the wording of the original test changed in any way and, if so, specifically and in detail, (1)

what words were added (ii) what words were deleted and (c) by whose direction were the changes made?


John Whitney Pickersgill: I have been given the following answer by the civil service commission:
The responsibility for filling the vacant position of chief purchasing agent in the purchasing and stores branch rested with the civil service commission, and in this regard the poster advertising this position was examined and authorized by direction of the commission by Mr. J. H. Barron. Mr. P. R. Powers was the civil service commission officer chosen to conduct the oral examinations for this competition. No written examination was held.


TRANS-CANADA AIR LINES ADVERTISING ACCOUNTS
Mr. Fisher: 1.	What agency or agencies have the T.C.A.
advertising accounts?
2.	When did it, or they, receive it, and what is
its estimated value?
3.	Does a contract exist?
4.	Was the account put up for speculative bid and, if so, what companies submitted bids, and at what price?
5.	If not, on what grounds, in detail, did T.C.A. find for choosing the present agency as best for its purposes?
6.	At any time in the negotiating or signing of any contract or completion of any arrangement, was T.C.A. in communication, for advice or approval, with a Mr. Keith Davey?


George James McIlraith: The management of Trans-Canada Air Lines advise as follows:
1 and 2. (a) Mather & Crowther, London, England, 1946; (b) McCann-Erickson, New York, 1956; (c) Foster Advertising Ltd., Toronto, 1961; (d) Cockfield, Brown & Co. Ltd., Montreal, 1948-1961; reappointed, 1963.
The value of these accounts varies from year to year according to the amount of the company's advertising budget. The total value of advertising to be placed through agencies for the year 1963 is estimated at $4,000,000.
3.	No contract exists with any advertising agency.
4.	Advertising accounts are not put up for speculative bids but agencies are selected on the basis of analytical criteria and continual review is made of these criteria to ensure the maintenance of a proper standard of service.
5.	The present agencies were selected on the basis of the findings of a comprehensive survey of some 27 Canadian agencies.
6.	No.


CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS ADVERTISING ACCOUNT
Mr. Fisher: 1.	What advertising agency handles the bulk of the C.N.B. account?
2.	How long has it held the account, and what has been its value, by year, including the estimated value in 1963 and 1964?
3.	Was the account awarded as the result of speculative bids and, if so, how many, and what companies submitted bids?
4.	What capabilities of the successful agency led to its receipt of the account, if it was on another basis than price?


George James McIlraith: The management of Canadian National Railways advise as follows:
1.	McConnell, Eastman and Co. Ltd.
2.	Since March 1, 1960, the volume of advertising placed through the agency has ranged between $800,000 and $950,000 per annum.
3.	Twenty four agencies were invited to submit information about their respective facilities, personnel services, existing accounts, etc. Following a study of this information discussions were held with each of the agencies and the selection made.
4.	The selection was based on Canadian National's assessment of the agency's professional competence and its ability to service the company's advertising need.


*F.L.Q. MEMBERS, PRINTING BUREAU
Mr. Fisher: 1.	Has the R.C.M.P. Investigated at the printing bureau in Hull any personnel suspected of belonging to the F.L.Q. and, if so, how many employees, if any, were found to belong to this organization?
2.	What action has been taken on the matter, either by the R.C.M.P. or by the authorities in the queen's printer offices?


John Whitney Pickersgill: 1. No.
2. None.


PICTOU LANDING, N.S., WHARFINGER
Mr. MacEwan: 1.	Will George E. Mason be replaced as wharfinger at Pictou Landing, Nova Scotia, on August 1, and, if so, why is he being replaced?
2.	Under what authority is this change being carried out?


George James McIlraith: 1. Yes. Retired on grounds of age (70 years).
2. Section 6(1) of the Government Harbours and Piers Act.


DESIGNATION OF &quot;SERVING&quot; ON RETAIL PACKAGES
Mr. Orlikow: Is the government considering legislation or regulations establishing and defining the net quantity of any commodity (in terms of weight, measure or count) which shall constitute a serving, if that commodity is distributed to retail purchasers in a package or with a label which bears a representation as to the number of servings provided
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by the net quantity of contents contained in that package or to which that label is affixed?


John Whitney Pickersgill: No.


RECEPTION CENTRES AND CLASSIFICATION OFFICERS, PENAL INSTITUTIONS
Mr. Orlikow: How many reception centres, recommended by the Fauteux report for classification of inmates initially committed, are there in Canada's penal institutions, and how many classification officers are there in each institution, and what are their academic qualifications and experience?


Lionel Chevrier: No reception centres have been established separately from receiving institutions in Canada's penitentiary service. Receiving institutions segregate newcomers in a special area and the procedures for reception, recommended by the Fauteux report are carried out, i.e., physical examination, psychological testing, educational and social histories.
At the institutional level, there are 65 classification staff positions on establishment. Five of these positions are at present vacant.
The classification positions in each institution, the academic qualifications and experience of their incumbents are as follows:
Dorchester Penitentiary
Supervisor of classification-B.A., M.A. (sociology)-eight years as probation officer and research assistant in mental health. Three years as administrative officer in B.W.I. One and one half years in classification.
Classification officer-one year university. Probation and parole officer, province of New Brunswick for three years. Three years social worker with children's aid society. Two years in classification. Attended correctional staff college (interviewing techniques, 1961).
Classification officer-B.A., B.Ed., high school teacher one year. Six months in classification.
Classification assistant-two years university. Six months with children's aid society, Nova Scotia. Nine months in classification.
Classification assistant-three years university. Six months in classification.
Springhill Institution
Classification officer-B.A. (psychology and sociology). Eleven years social welfare. Two years in classification. Attended correctional staff college course (interviewing techniques 1961).
Dorchester Farm Camp
Classification officer-Psychiatric attendant at the provincial hospital, Campbellton, N.B., since 1954. High school graduate. Appointed assistant hospital officer, Dorchester penitentiary in 1961. Promoted to classification officer at Dorchester farm camp in July 1963.

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Blue Mountain Institution
Classification officer-B.A. almost complete. One year in classification.
St. Vincent de Paul Penitentiary Supervisor of classification-B.A. equivalent. Thirteen years of penitentiary experience. Eleven years in classification. Former personnel selection officer (army).
Classification officer-B.A. (sociology). Nine months in classification.
Classification officer-Grade X plus university courses in criminology. Twenty three years experience in penitentiary. Five years in classification.
Classification officer-grade XII, plus university courses in criminology. Five years experience in penitentiary, three years in classification. Attended correctional staff college course on interviewing techniques, 1961.
Classification assistant-B.A. and two years of postgraduate studies in criminology. Two years in classification.
Classification assistant-B.A. Twenty years in R.C.A.F. mostly as personnel interviewer. One and one half years in classification.
Classification assistant-B.Sc. (sociology), two years postgraduate studies in criminology. Appointed June 1963.
St. Vincent de Paul Farm Camp
Classification officer-B.A. Two years in classification.
Federal Training Centre
Classification officer-B.A. Two years as personnel interviewer. Six years as classification officer.
Classification officer-two years university. Two years experience in classification.
Classification assistant-grade XII. Four years experience in classification. Attended correctional staff college course on interviewing techniques, 1961.
Leelerc Institution
Classification officer-three years university. Two years experience in social welfare. Two years in classification.
Classification officer-B.Sc., two years in personnel work. Two years in classification.
Classification assistant-senior matric. Diploma in socio-pedagogy. Two years penitentiary experience. Six months in classification.
Gatineau Correctional Camp Classification officer (vacant).
Valley field Camp
Classification officer-B.A., B.S.W. Three years experience in social work. Six months in classification.
[Mr. Chevrier.l
Kingston Penitentiary
Supervisor of classification-M.S.W. Nine years as social worker. Three years in classification.
Classification officer-B.Soc.Sc., and one year law. Three years penitentiary experience. Four months in classification.
Classification officer-three years university. Attended two penitentiary courses on classification and interviewing techniques 1961. Fourteen years penitentiary experience, three years in classification.
Classification assistant-grade XII. Attended correctional staff college course on interviewing techniques 1961. Eighteen years experience in penitentiary, three in classification.
Classification assistant-senior matric. Attended two penitentiary courses on classification and on interviewing techniques 1961. Sixteen years experience in penitentiary, two in classification.
Classification assistant-senior matric. Attended correctional staff college course on interviewing techniques 1961. Former personnel selection officer (army). Two years in classification.
Classification assistant-grade X. Attended two penitentiary courses on classification. Thirteen years in penitentiary, two in classification.
Classification assistant-senior matric. Ten years correctional experience in Ontario. Attended correctional staff college course on interviewing techniques, 1961. Two years in classification.
Classification officer-B.Sc. in public administration and criminology. Three months in classification.
Prison for Women
Social worker-B.A., diploma in social work. Ten years social work experience. Six years in classification.
Collin's Bay Penitentiary
Classification officer-two years university. Attended penitentiary courses in classification and interviewing techniques 1961. Four years penitentiary experience, two years with classification.
Classification officer-grade X. Thirteen years penitentiary experience, four years with classification.
Classification officer-B.A. (sociology). Five months in classification.
Classification assistant-junior matric. Attended penitentiary courses in classification and interviewing techniques 1961. Six years penitentiary experience. Two years in classification.

Collin's Bay Farm Camp
Classification officer-three years university. Took course in classification 1961. Five years penitentiary experience. Three months in classification.
Landry Crossing Correctional Camp
Classification officer-junior matric. Took course in classification 1961. Twelve years penitentiary experience. Two years in classification.
Beaver Creek Correctional Camp
Classification officer-B.A. (psychology). Five months in classification.
Joyceville Institution
Classification officer-senior matric. Attended correctional staff college course on interviewing techniques 1961. Former personnel selection officer (army). Three years in classification.
Classification officer-B.A. (sociology). Four months in classification.
Classification assistant-grade X. Attended correctional staff college course on interviewing techniques 1961. Ten years penitentiary experience. Three years in classification.
Classification assistant-B.A. (psychology). Five months in classification.
Joyceville Farm Camp
Classification officer-senior matric. Six years penitentiary experience. One year classification.
Manitoba Penitentiary
Classification officer-two years university. Nine years with provincial corrections. Two years in classification.
Classification assistant-three years university. Two years with provincial corrections. One year in classification.
Manitoba Farm Camp
Classification officer-grade XI. Attended correctional staff college course on interviewing techniques 1961. Eight years experience in penitentiary. Two years in classification.
Saskatchewan Penitentiary
Classification officer-grade X. Attended correctional staff college course on interviewing techniques 1961. Twenty seven years experience in penitentiary. Nine years in classification.
Classification officer-grade XII. Attended correctional staff college course on interviewing techniques 1961. Ten years experience in penitentiary. Three years in classification.
Classification assistant-one year university. Two years penitentiary experience.
Classification assistant-three years university. Five months in classification.
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Classification assistant-B.A. Five months in classification.
Saskatchewan Farm Camp
Classification officer (vacant).
British Columbia Penitentiary
Supervisor of classification-B.S.W. Two years postgraduate studies in criminology. Five years in provincial corrections. Two years in classification.
Classification officer-three years university. Fifteen years social work in corrections. Three years in classification.
Classification officer-B.A. (criminology). Three years in classification.
Classification assistant-B.A. Attended correctional staff college course on interviewing techniques 1961. Thirteen years penitentiary service. Three years in classification.
Classification assistant-grade XII. Graduate school of psychiatric nursing. Eight years rehabilitation work. One year in classification.
William Head Institution
Classification officer-senior matric. Over 25 years with R.C.M.P. Appointed classification officer August 1963.
Agassiz Correctional Camp
Classification officer-high school education. Attended correctional staff college course on interviewing techniques 1961. Eight years penitentiary experience. Six years in classification.


MEDICAL CENTRES FOR CERTAIN PRISONERS
Mr. Orlikow: Is the government considering implementing the recommendation of the Fauteux report that special prison medical centres be established for prisoners who are alcoholics, drug addicts, sex offenders or psychotics, which centres would provide suitable security or custodial arrangements but would have the atmosphere of a hospital?


Lionel Chevrier: Yes, as part of its long range plan of penitentiary construction.


AUTOMATIC PAROLE REVIEW
Mr. Orlikow: Is the government considering the recommendation of the Fauteux report that a system of automatic parole review should be instituted in Canada thereby dispensing with the present system which requires an application for parole and, if not, for what reason?


Lionel Chevrier: The Parole Act, proclaimed in force as of February 15, 1959, provides, at the time prescribed by the regulations, for a review of "the case of every inmate serving a sentence of imprisonment of two years or more, whether or not an application has been made by or on behalf of the inmate". In the

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case of an inmate serving a sentence of imprisonment of less than two years, the obligation to review exists, upon application by or on behalf of the inmate.
The parole regulations became effective on September 1, 1960, and the system of automatic parole review recommended by the Fauteux report came into effect at the same date in the case of penitentiary inmates and of prison inmates serving aggregate sentences of two years or more.


ROYAL COMMISSION ON DIVORCE LAWS
[Stage Direction]
Question No. 1,131
Mr. Mather:: Is the government giving consideration to the establishment of a royal commission on laws affecting divorce?
Answer: No.


ROYAL COMMISSION ON ABORTION LAWS
Mr. Mather: Is the government giving consideration to the appointment of a royal commission on laws affecting abortion?
Answer: No.


DIPLOMATIC RELATIONS WITH COMMUNIST CHINA
Mr. Lambert: Has the Prime Minister received a communication from the state council of the province of Alberta of the Knights of Columbus embodying a resolution expressing the strongest opposition to diplomatic recognition of communist China by Canada and, if so has the government made a review of its diplomatic relations with communist China, and what has been the result?


Lester Bowles Pearson: The answer to the first part of the question is yes.
With respect to the second part of the question, communist China is a subject which is receiving the government's attention. As my colleague, the minister for external affairs, emphasized to the house on July 26, this should not be taken as an indication of the adoption of a new policy on recognition of communist China.


SERVICES OP BUSINESS CONSULTANTS, PUBLIC PRINTING AND STATIONERY
Mr. Fisher: Were the services of any business consultants employed by the department of public printing and stationery during the years 1961 and 1962 and if so (a) what was the nature and extent of their work (b) when was it started (c) when was it stopped (d) who arranged for and authorized their employment (e) what was the contract price (f) what was the name of the firm (g) how many men were employed (h) why was the firm chosen (i) was it previously employed by the Glassco commission in the department of public printing and stationery (j) was the study completed and, if not (k) why was it terminated (1) who authorized the termination (m) for what reason and (n) what price was finally paid?


Mr. Drury:: Yes, during 1961.
(a)	To assist the department of public printing and stationery in carrying out a methods and standards program, with a view to completing the establishment of standards by the end of 1962.
(b)	October 20, 1961.
(c)	December 12, 1961.
(d)	The Department of Public Printing and Stationery and treasury board (minute 586148).
(e)	$111,600.
(f)	P.A. Management Consultants Limited.
(g)	One.
(h)	P.A. Management Consultants Limited are an international organization and have specialized in the field of printing.
(i)	Yes.
(j)	No.
(k)	On instructions from the office of the Secretary of State.
(l)	The office of the Secretary of State.
(m)	No reasons given.
(n)	$7,077.54.


C.N.R. LEASE OF ROLLING STOCK
[Stage Direction]
Question No. 1,151
Mr. MacEwan:: 1.	How many of each of the following units of equipment are under lease by the Canadian National Railways from United States companies (a) mechanical refrigerator cars (b) tri-level cars, and
(c)	hydro frame cushion boxcars?
2.	Are any other types of railway rolling stock under lease in Canada by the C.N.R. from United States companies and, if so, how many of each type of unit?


George James McIlraith: The management of Canadian National Railways advise as follows:
1.	(a) 80; (b) 20; (c) 10.
2.	No.


RICHARD O'HAGAN
Mr. Fisher: Is Richard O'Hagan on the salary list and an employee of the Prime Minister's office and, if so
(a)	is Mr. O'Hagan in receipt of another income from or through his former employer, MacLaren's Advertising Company Limited and (b) what is the scale of the latter remuneration?
Answer: Yes.
(a)	No.
(b)	Not applicable.


AGENT FOR LIBERAL CANDIDATE, NOTRE DAME DE GRACE CONSTITUENCY
Mr. Korchinski: What was the name and address of the official agent for the Liberal candidate in the riding of Notre Dame de Grace in the election of April 8, 1963?


John Whitney Pickersgill: K. C. MacKay, Q.C., 5011 Mira road, Montreal, P.Q.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURN


[Stage Direction]
Question No. 477[DOT]-Mr. Valade:
How many of the present ministers of the crown were employees of the federal public service; who are they, and what position did each one hold?
Return tabled.

Mr. Howard: What action, in detail, has been taken with respect to each of the following recommendations of the joint committee of the Senate and the House of Commons on Indian affairs:
"(a) Education is the key to the full realization by Indians of self-determination and self-government.
(b)	Education of Indian children in schools under the jurisdiction of the provinces should be continued and expanded.
(c)	Kindergarten facilities for Indian children should be provided.
(d)	The provincial authorities should be approached to ensure that a more comprehensive and accurate account of the Indian people is used and described in history courses and texts.
(e)	Agreements should be entered into with provincial authorities to extend adult education facilities to Indians with the program expanded.
(f)	Travelling library facilities to Indian communities should be expanded wherever possible.
(g)	Academic upgrading and social orientation courses to prepare young Indians for placement or specialized training should be greatly expanded.
(h)	Full support and encouragement should be given to formation of home and school or parent-teacher associations.
(i)	The fullest possible encouragement and incentive should be given to Indian children to go as far as they can In school.
(j)	In addition to an intensive educational program, the economic opportunities and environment of the Indian people should be developed.
(k)	The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation and other agencies should prepare factual presentations of the Indians' way of life and their contribution to the development of Canada."?
Return tabled.


TERRITORIAL CONSTRUCTION PROJECTS, MACKENZIE DISTRICT AND FORT SMITH AREA
Mr. Rheaume: 1.	What territorial construction projects including roads are planned for the 1963-64 fiscal year in (a) Mackenzie district and (b) Fort Smith area?
2.	How many of these projects for each of the above areas will be carried out by (a) Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources and (b) private contractors?
Motions for Papers MOTIONS FOR PAPERS


ACCEPTANCE OF FISHERIES COMMISSION RECOMMENDATION RESPECTING HALIBUT
[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 62-Mr. Knowles (for Mr. Barnett):
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency for a copy of the cabinet minute or other official document which authorized the Secretary of State for External Affairs to notify the executive director, the international north pacific fisheries commission, by telegram under date of May 10, 1963, that the commission's recommendations for the removal of the halibut stocks in the eastern Bering sea and the herring stocks west of the Queen Charlotte islands from the annex to the convention had been accepted by the government of Canada.
Mr. Hellyer:: I wonder whether in view of the absence of the minister the hon. gentleman would care to let this motion stand?


Mr. Knowles:: Yes.
Motion stands.


MAINTENANCE OF ALASKA HIGHWAY
[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 64-Mr. Nielsen:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of all documents, reports, engineering or other surveys, communications, correspondence or other papers, with respect to the (a) all-weather maintenance of the road from Haines junction in the Yukon Territory to Haines in the state of Alaska, U.S.A. (b) existing maintenance costs of the northwest highway system in maintaining the said road by the northwest highway system of the Canadian army and (c) paving of the said road.
He said: The Minister of National Defence has kindly supplied me with most of the information I require and has given me permission to consult with his officials as to the remainder. However, there are certain reports and correspondence which come under the jurisdiction of the minister of northern affairs and which still require production. I do not see the minister or his parliamentary secretary in their seats. As I say, there are still these reports which should be produced.
Paul Theodore Hellyer: In those circumstances perhaps the hon. gentleman would allow the motion to stand.


Mr. Nielsen:: Yes.
Motion stands.


ROAD FROM CARCROSS, Y.T. TO SKAGWAY, ALASKA
[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 65-Mr. Nielsen:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of all documents, reports, engineering or other surveys, communications, correspondence or other papers, with respect to the construction of a road from Carcross in the Yukon Territory to Skagway in the state of Alaska in the U.S.A.
Return tabled.
[Stage Direction]
Motions for Papers
Paul Theodore Hellyer: In view of the absence of the minister in this case I wonder whether the hon. gentleman would agree to allow the motion to stand?


Erik Nielsen: Yes.
Motion stands.


PAVING OP ALASKA HIGHWAY
[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 66-Mr. Nielsen:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of all documents, reports, engineering or other surveys, communications, correspondence or other papers, with respect to the paving of the Alaska highway through to the Yukon-Alaska boundary.
He said: Mr. Speaker, this motion has been satisfied by the Minister of National Defence co-operating with me and producing the material. While I am on my feet, may I draw Your Honour's attention to the fact that motions Nos. 78, 79 and 80 are duplications, and if it is in order for me to do so perhaps I might be allowed to withdraw those motions.
Mr. Speaker:: Does the house give consent to the withdrawal of motions for production of papers Nos. 78, 79 and 80 as requested?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: And No. 66.


Erik Nielsen: And No. 66.


Mr. Speaker:: And No. 66?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
Orders discharged and motions withdrawn.


REPRESENTATIONS BY CANADA RAILWAY EMPLOYEES ASSOCIATION
[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 76-Mr. Fisher:
That an order of the house do Issue for a copy of all replies of any kind given by the Prime Minister or other cabinet ministers to representations made by the Retired Canada Railway Employees Association, Incorporated, to the Prime Minister in August 1963.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 81-Mr. Lambert:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all telegrams, correspondence, reports, briefs and memoranda, and any replies thereto, received by the Minister of National Defence the Minister of Transport, or any minister of the government or any government official, from the cities of Edmonton, Calgary and Red Deer, any civic organizations therefrom or any other interested parties, since January 1, 1963 to date, relative to the projected use of R.C.A.P. station Penhold, Alberta, for a jet training base of the Department of National Defence.
Motion agreed to.
[Mr. Nielsen.}

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 82-Mr. Churchill:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of the 1963 report of the Department of Transport regarding the establishment of the Penhold jet training base which was made prior to the calling of the tenders for construction of facilities in the said base; and any further report secured by the Department of Transport which preceded the reversal of the earlier decision to establish the jet training base.
George James McIlraith: Mr. Speaker, I would draw your attention to the fact that the report asked for, if there were one, would be a departmental document made by certain officers within the department and therefore could not be produced. In addition I might say that there is no such report on record. Therefore I would ask the hon. member to withdraw the motion.


Mr. Speaker:: Does the hon. member consent to having the said motion dropped?


Mr. Churchill:: I understand from the minister that there is no such report. Therefore nothing can be done.
Order discharged and motion withdrawn.


LETTERS FROM AND TO HAL BANKS
[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 83-Mr. Churchill:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all letters and replies thereto that passed between Hal Banks and/or other officials of the S.I.U., and any member of the government or any official of a government department, since the 12th of April last.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 84-Mr. Diefenbaker:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house copies of all correspondence between the federal and provincial governments or any ministers thereof in regard to the Canada pension plan.
Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, I wonder
whether the right hon. gentleman would permit this motion to stand until next week.


Mr. Diefenbaker:: Yes.
Motions stands.


U.S. AGREEMENT ON NUCLEAR WEAPONS
[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 85-Mr. Diefenbaker:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of the recent agreement on nuclear weapons entered into between the government of Canada and the United States of America.
Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, this motion is for the production of a defence agreement

Division
 NAYS Messrs:
with the United States of America, which cannot be made public for reasons of national and NATO security and in accordance with the position taken by the right hon. gentleman himself on February 20, 1959 and subsequently. Therefore I would ask that it be withdrawn.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that the right hon. gentleman has seen fit to refer to me I should be able to reply. I never provided expurgated editions. The right hon. gentleman did so when the press announcement was made in regard to this agreement. Having done so, he waived the right of the government to take the stand he now takes, and I want the motion proceeded with.


Mr. Speaker:: Under the rules of the house I am obliged to put the motion to the house.


Walter Lockhart Gordon: Mr. Speaker, I was paired. Had I voted I would have voted against the motion.


Mr. Roxburgh:: Mr. Speaker, I was paired. Had I voted I would have voted against the motion.


Mr. Cashin:: Mr. Speaker, I was paired. Had I voted I would have voted against the motion.


Mr. Granger:: Mr. Speaker, I was paired. Had I voted I would have voted against the motion.
[Editor's note: Owing to the difficulty of recording pairs announced simultaneously, the above list is not complete.]

Inquiries of the Ministry LABOUR RELATIONS


ST. LAWRENCE RIVER    THREATENED STRIKE OF LONGSHOREMEN
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Labour and ask him what is being done at the moment to bring about the settlement of the strike of the longshoremen of the St. Lawrence ports scheduled for Friday. What action is being taken, and will he take the house into his confidence and let us know that this strike will not take place, affecting, as it will, not only Canada's exports but her economy as a whole?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: Mr. Speaker, I am glad to give this information to the house. Earlier in the day I announced that in order to provide the parties with a final opportunity for settlement of the dispute involving longshoremen employed by the Shipping Federation of Canada at Montreal, Three Rivers and Quebec, a federal mediator had been appointed in the person of Judge Rene Lippe of Montreal. I have advised the representatives of the international longshoremen's association and the shipping federation accordingly.
Judge Lippe has had wide and successful experience as a conciliation and arbitration board chairman for both the federal and provincial authorities and is in an excellent position to assist the parties to reach an early settlement. Judge Lippe is in contact, I understand, with the parties this afternoon in an initial effort to reach a settlement before the strike on Friday, and it is to be hoped that his efforts will prove successful.


John George Diefenbaker: By way of a supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, if those efforts are not successful, in view of the dangerous state of affairs that will result, what action does the government intend to take?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: Mr. Speaker, I think it would be premature to prejudge the efforts of Judge Lippe. We ought to wait until time has taken its course before deciding what would be the best way to deal with any eventualities. But the government is aware of all the possibilities inherent in this situation and is giving full consideration to what ought to be done under certain conditions.



NORRIS COMMISSION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Michael Siarr (Ontario):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a question of the Minister of Justice. Has the minister received

any report from the special counsel whom he appointed to delve into possible charges that might be laid in connection with the Norris commission report?


Lionel Chevrier: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I have received an interim report from Mr. John Robinette, Q.C. and Mr. Jean Martineau, Q.C. The report is now being studied by the officers of the Department of Justice. From the report it is clear that there will have to be consultation between the officers of the department and the two persons who were asked to make recommendations, namely Mr. Robinette and Mr. Martineau.


Michael Starr: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Minister of Justice a question supplementary to the one I asked earlier. Can he give us any indication when the meeting between the special counsel and the department heads with regard to the Norris commission report will be held?


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, I cannot add anything to what I have already said. I think the answer to the question would depend on what the report is as between our officers and the two counsel appointed to deal with the matter in question.


John George Diefenbaker: Banks seems to be a favourite son.



CANADA DEVELOPMENT FUND


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. T. C. Douglas (Burnaby-Coquitlam):: Mr. Speaker, I am sure all hon. members would want to welcome back the Minister of Finance from his visit to Washington and his appearance before the international monetary fund administration.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: I would like to ask the minister whether he would either deny or confirm reports that the government has decided not to proceed with the Canada development fund legislation. This is an important matter, and I think the house ought to be informed if the government has definitely decided not to proceed at this session with this important measure.


Walter Lockhart Gordon: Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. friend for his kind remarks. I can assure him that the government has not reached any such decision; that is, not to proceed with this legislation. When we will proceed

with it is a matter that will be worked out by the cabinet with the advice of the house leader.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Can the minister give us some idea of when it is the intention to proceed with this measure?


Walter Lockhart Gordon: Mr. Speaker, I think I really answered that question in my reply to the original question.


John George Diefenbaker: Was that not in the 60
days?


Walter Lockhart Gordon: As I say, Mr. Speaker, it will depend on how fast we get through the various things that are now before the house.



AIR TRANSPORT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. R. N. Thompson (Red Deer):: Mr. Speaker, I address my question to the Minister of Transport. Would the minister inform the house of the latest regulations of his department concerning jet training as they relate to requirements in regard to air lanes and buffer zones.


George James McIlraith: Mr. Speaker, I do not think I can take the time of the house on orders of the day to set out the details of the safety regulations in this connection. The hon. member raised a question on this subject two days ago in relation to the air field at Penhold. I would like to point out to him that our responsibilities under the Aeronautics Act place a primary emphasis upon the maintenance of safety in flying, and we in Canada are proud of the record which has been achieved in this regard. It is our responsibility to ensure that arrangements relating to flying provide the maximum degree of safety to those in the air and those on the ground.
This has involved not only an extensive, well equipped and highly competent air traffic control system and a well equipped and well laid out system of high level and low level airways and air routes across Canada, but general arrangements for the separation of various types of traffic to avoid the risk of air collision.
I can give the hon. member more information on this subject if he wants it, Mr. Speaker, but I do not know how much time I should take on orders of the day.


Robert Norman Thompson: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Are these regulations to which the minister is referring uniform for all air
Inquiries of the Ministry patterns across the country and for all areas where training is taking place?


George James McIlraith: Yes, but there is a situation where aircraft are not uniform in different parts of the country. There are problems like that which arise. For instance, certain types of aircraft do not fly over 30,000 feet; they are not capable of it. There are questions like that which enter into this matter.


Robert Norman Thompson: A supplementary question. The minister has answered my question as it relates to safety. My question was, what are the safety zone requirements as they are presently laid out for this type of training? This question requires only a very short answer, and it is an urgent matter.


Some hon. Members:: Order paper.


Mr. Speaker:: I suggest to the hon. member that his question be put on the order paper. The answer requires a great deal of detail.



NATIONAL DEFENCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Real Caouelle (Villeneuve):: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of National Defence, if you please.
Does the agreement between Canada and the United States on nuclear weapons include the setting up of new American defence bases in Canada?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Mr. Speaker, it does not include the construction of any new defence bases.



USE OF FRENCH AS COMMAND LANGUAGE

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Theogene Ricard (St. Hyacinthe-Bagot):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Associate Minister of National Defence. Could the minister tell the house what practical reasons account for the fact that the French language has no place in the three Canadian armed services, as he stated not so long ago?


Hon. Lucien Cardin (Associate Minister of National Defence):: Mr. Speaker, I think my hon. friend has misinterpreted the statements I made. I feel sure he knows what steps have been taken and what steps are planned to encourage bilingualism in the Department of National Defence and within the three armed services of Canada.
However, in the case of Canadian armed forces taking part in a mission under an international body such as NATO or NORAD,

Inquiries of the Ministry where headquarters are made up of officers from various countries and the forces of several nations are supposed to work together, in order to avoid any misunderstanding from a security point of view, it has been agreed that words of command are to be given in English.
Now, for my hon. friend's information, I might add that neither France nor Italy nor Germany nor any of the other member countries of NATO were opposed to English being the language of command and that none of those countries felt that decision was unfair to them.



D.E.W. LINE-REPORTED OBJECTION TO EMPLOYEES JOINING UNION

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Speaker, I should like to address my question to the Minister of National Defence. Can the minister inform the house why the United States firm that is responsible for the maintenance and operation of the D.E.W. line objects to giving 600 workers the right to affiliate with a union, as was reported in the newspapers?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: I think that is another question that should be put on the order paper.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: On a point of order, I think this is a proper question to address to the Minister of National Defence. It is an urgent question. It is the right of these workers to be affiliated with a union and it is the duty of the Minister of National Defence to answer the question right now.



COLUMBIA RIVER


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. W. Herridge (Kootenay West):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to address a question of national significance to the Prime Minister.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: In view of the fact that Mr. Ray Perrault when speaking in the Kootenays during the recent provincial election said "Throughout the entire course of negotiations with the United States and with the government of B.C. the Liberal party of B.C. has been in constant contact with the federal Liberal government"-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: -and later said that Canada is negotiating with the United States to postpone the high Arrow dam in favour of the low Arrow dam-
(Mr. Cardin.]


Mr. Speaker:: Order. Will you please come to your question?


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Yes, Mr. Speaker-and in view of the fact that Hon. Ray Williston said this was nonsense, would the Prime Minister inform the house who is telling the truth?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, I would certainly be out of order if I commented on the accuracy of statements of various participants in the recent election in British Columbia.



INDUSTRY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Robert Simpson (Churchill):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Industry, but in his absence I will direct it to the acting minister. With reference to a booklet describing the Department of Industry which has come to our desks today, which says in part under "Functions of the department", that the department-
-will work with all agencies at various levels of federal, provincial and municipal government to provide improved industrial opportunities in designated areas-
-can the minister inform the house whether consultation has taken place, or will take place, with the officials of the Indian affairs branch so as to provide improved industrial opportunities in the truly depressed areas, in-dustrialwise and employmentwise, namely, the Indian reservations of Canada?


Hon. J. R. Nicholson (Acting Minister of Industry):: Mr. Speaker, I feel that this question should be put on the order paper.



LANGUAGE REQUIREMENTS RESPECTING PERSONNEL OF NEW DEPARTMENT

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Gerard Perron (Beauce):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to put a question to the Minister of Industry but, in his absence, I shall direct it to the Prime Minister. My question is based on a press report. Is it true that the new Department of Industry requires a knowledge of both languages only from applicants who will be called upon to work in the province of Quebec or to deal with that province?


Lester Bowles Pearson: It is important for all members of this new department and other departments to have a knowledge of both languages.



EDUCATION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Reid Scott (Danforth):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a question of the Prime Minister. The question arises out of a report in the Globe and Mail about a parent-teacher organization calling on the Prime Minister asking for the creation of a federal office of education. The report seemed to indicate that the Prime Minister adopted the proposal but thought it would require the consent of the provinces. My question is this. Does the government approve in principle of the creation of a federal office of education and, if so, will it be placed on the agenda of the forthcoming conference between the federal government and the provincial premiers?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, when the delegation was before me I said that I endorsed the aims of such an office which were put forward by them, those aims being for the exchange of educational information. But I went on to point out that this kind of education office should not be established without the consent of the provincial governments. This may be a matter which will be considered at the forthcoming provincial conference.



EXTERNAL AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Gilbert Rondeau (Shefford):: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Secretary of State for External Affairs I shall direct my question to the Prime Minister.
Does the Canadian government intend to change its preferential tariff policy toward South Africa, which withdrew recently from the commonwealth?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, questions of tariff policy cannot be answered in this way on the orders of the day. When the estimates of the Departments of External Affairs and Trade and Commerce are up there will be an opportunity to discuss all these matters.


REQUEST FOR ESTABLISHMENT OF CANADA-U.S. PARLIAMENTARY COMMITTEE
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr.  R. Gordon L. Fairweather@Royal: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Prime Minister. Has the Prime Minister anything to report on the convening of the United
Inquiries of the Ministry States-Canada interparliamentary committee? Last May 29, in response to a question of mine, the Prime Minister said a meeting would be convened at an early date. I wonder how early is early.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, this is a matter in the efficient hands of Mr. Speaker, I believe, and it is not a responsibility of the government.


AGRICULTURE
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Gérard Perron: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture.
Does the minister intend to restore soon the premium which was paid to milk producers until last May, to assist the farmers of eastern Canada who were the most affected by the government's decision?


Hon. Harry W. Hays (Minister of Agriculture):: Mr. Speaker, this is a question of government policy and any change will be announced after this matter has been dealt with.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Andrew Brewin (Greenwood):: Mr. Speaker, my question is addressed to the Secretary of State. In light of the nature of the proceedings of this house during the last two days, does the government intend to bring forward at an early date the resolution on the order paper for the appointment of a select committee to suggest changes that will assure the more expeditious dispatch of public business and other reforms of parliamentary procedure?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I welcome the objective the hon. gentleman has in mind and I renew at once the offer I made repeatedly before we adjourned, that I would bring this motion on today or any other day if it could be passed without debate so the committee could start sitting tomorrow. If that cannot be done, I will seek at the earliest possible time after certain urgent matters, such as interim supply and the measure now before the house, are disposed of to bring this matter forward for debate. But if there could be agreement to do it without debate it would facilitate the
3124	HOUSE OF
Inquiries of the Ministry objective that the hon. gentleman has in mind and which, I should judge from the applause, every hon. member has in mind.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Speaker, may I address a supplementary question to the Secretary of State. Why is he constantly asking for matters to be handled here without debate? Does he want to set up a dictatorship in this country?


John Whitney Pickersgill: No, sir, but it does seem to me that perhaps one of the most useful reforms we could make is to refer matters to committees without debate, and then to debate them in the house after they have been considered by the committees and there is some subject matter to be debated.


Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary question.
May I take this opportunity to ask the Secretary of State when he intends to call the privileges and elections committee to study and decide upon the situation which exists at present in this part of the house?


Some hon. Members:: That has already been announced.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Well, Mr. Speaker, since the government has no interest in attempting to impose a dictatorship in any part of the house, I feel I should tell the hon. gentleman that that is no part of the business of government. The committee has been set up; it has been established by the house and there is regular machinery for calling it together. However, I have ascertained from the chief government whip that a notice has gone out for a meeting tomorrow at ten o'clock.


Some hon. Members:: Ten thirty.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I am told it is ten thirty.



UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Pierre-Andre Boutin (Dorchester):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct my question to the Prime Minister.
Does the government intend to study soon the recommendations of the Gill report on unemployment insurance or does it intend to introduce this fall legislation on that subject to assure the liquidity of the fund during the coming winter months?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, legislation will be introduced on this important measure as soon as possible.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. P. V. Noble (Grey North):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Industry. In his absence I will direct it to the Prime Minister. What assistance will be forthcoming from the Department of Industry to areas other than those designated as depressed areas?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, I will be glad to take that question as notice.


Mr. Heward Grafftey (Brome-Missisquoi):: A supplementary question to the Minister of Labour, Mr. Speaker. Can the minister assure all hon. members of the house that before certain areas are designated as depressed areas local authorities are at all times consulted?


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Speaker, they have regard for municipal autonomy.


Allan Joseph MacEachen: The designation of certain areas has been undertaken on the basis of the most objective criteria available, namely the unemployment and employment records of these areas. Such areas are eligible for assistance under special measures in order to accelerate their growth. That is the purpose, and I am sure municipalities in any part of Canada which feel any need of special assistance will welcome these particular measures, which apply solely to areas of designation.


William Heward Grafftey: Yes, but are local authorities consulted before they are designated as distressed areas, or is that name imposed on them by Ottawa without consultation?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: I think the emphasis there is completely misplaced. The purpose is not to describe these areas as depressed, but rather as areas of future opportunity under the proposals made by this government.


Mr. A. D. Hales (Wellington South):: My
question is directed to the Minister of Labour, and it is supplementary to the question asked earlier. Would the minister consider changing the criterion used in designating areas by reducing it from an eight year average of

unemployment figures to a lesser number of years, so that it would be more in line with recent conditions?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: I would say in reply to the hon. gentleman that the government is designating these particular areas for a period of one year. The situation will be reviewed at the end of that year and, in the interval, careful consideration will be given to perfecting the methods of designation so that these criteria may truly reflect the need in particular areas of this country.


William Heward Grafftey: With or without consultation with the municipalities?


Mr. Speaker:: Order.


William Heward Grafftey: Answer yes or no.


Allan Joseph MacEachen: It ought to be pointed out, too, that it is not fully accurate to speak of an eight year period as the period of designation. If these areas are to be eligible for special assistance because of their failure to grow as rapidly as other areas then, in order to test the need as a chronic condition, a certain time period must be used. That is why a duration of time is established among the criteria, as was done by the former government in its designation of areas under the double depreciation program; so this is not a novel idea at all.


William Heward Grafftey: The former government
always consulted the municipalities.


John George Diefenbaker: Now that the Minister of Labour is in good spirit to answer questions, possibly he would answer this simple one. Before a municipal area is designated as a distressed area in order to qualify, are the officials of the municipality consulted?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: First of all, I take exception again to the term "depressed" or "distressed". That is not the intention at all. We felt as a government that, given the opportunity, we ought to take responsibility, as we said we would do, for areas which ought to be given special assistance, not to do as the former government did and ask the municipality to come forward and make an application.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.



DATE OF COMMENCEMENT OF WINTER WORKS PROGRAM

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. C. A. Gauthier (Roberval):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Labour. Can the minister tell the
Inquiries of the Ministry house why the government has delayed the winter works period until November 1?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: This particular point was fully covered in the statement made to the house last June announcing the winter works program.



VETERANS AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. W. B. Nesbitt (Oxford):: I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Labour because I think this matter comes chiefly under his jurisdiction. Do persons building homes this fall and winter under the Veterans Land Act become eligible for the $500 bonus in connection with the winter housing program?
Hon A. J. MacEachen (Minister of Labour):
My understanding is that they do, but if I am proven wrong on investigation I will tell the hon. member in the house.



INQUIRY AS TO PROGRESS OF CONSTRUCTION PROGRAM

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. F. Jones (Saskatoon):: Mr. Speaker I wonder whether the Minister of Veterans Affairs is in a position to advise the house of the government's intentions in respect of proceeding with the completion of necessary construction in his department this fall and, in particular, is he in a position to advise when he intends to call for tenders for the erection of the veterans home in Saskatoon?
Hon. Roger Teillel (Minisler of Veterans
Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the hon. gentleman for advising me that he was going to ask this question. The government has a continuing long range program for the replacement, reconstruction and renovation of departmental treatment facilities. Announcements of the progress of this program will be made at appropriate times.
With respect to the veterans home in Saskatoon, instructions went forward some time ago to proceed with the replacement of existing facilities. I am informed by public works that tenders will be called in approximately three weeks.
May I say that I am very pleased to see the hon. member here. When I was in his fair city some three or four weeks ago, I was not able to see him. I understand that conditions then were not as good. I welcome him back, however, and I am pleased to see him in good health.

Inquiries of the Ministry SHIPPING



ST. LAWRENCE RIVER-SUGGESTED CLOSING BECAUSE OF U.S. UNION ACTION

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Gerard Chapdelaine (Sherbrooke):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Labour. Could he tell the house whether he is thinking of forbidding the use of the St. Lawrence seaway to ships coining from the United States should some people in the United States keep on using dilatory measures to prevent the setting up of the trusteeship over Canadian shipping unions?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: I find the question too vague to allow of a precise answer.



FINANCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Henri Laiulippe (Compion-Fronlenac):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Finance.
Since the minister stated recently that Canada did not intend to reduce the deficit in her balance of payments to the prejudice of the United States, can he tell the house what actual solution he intends to put forward and what he means exactly by multilateral but not bilateral measures.


Walter Lockhart Gordon: I made no such statement in those terms, without going into in much more detail; and 1 do not think I could answer the substantive part of the question on the orders of the day.



DIFFICULTY OF COLLECTING PROPOSED TRANSACTION TAX

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. A. Olson (Medicine Hat):: I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Finance and ask whether during his recent discussions with officials of the United States treasury department they revealed to him a plan of administration to cover the proposed 15 per cent transaction tax. If so, did this plan of administration overcome some of the difficulties which he ran into when he proposed a similar tax?


Hon. Walter L. Gordon (Minister of
Finance): I think there are difficulties in the collection of all taxes, not only in this country but in some others as well.


Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a supplementary question. Since the collection of all taxes involves many problems is the Minister of Finance considering the withdrawal of them all, as he has done for the 30 per cent tax?



TAXABILITY OF $500 GRANT FOR WINTER HOUSE CONSTRUCTION

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. J. R. Garland (Minister of National Revenue):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to reply to the question asked yesterday by the hon. member for Ontario respecting the $500 bonus to be paid to the first purchaser of a new house constructed mainly during the winter period.
A person who purchases the house as a personal residence for himself will receive the $500 payment without income tax consequences.
Where the first purchaser rents out the whole or a part of the house or otherwise uses it for revenue purposes, the payment of $500 which he is to receive from the government will reduce the capital cost of the house which is the basis for the capital cost allowance which he may claim for income tax purposes.
Where the first purchaser of the house is subject to tax as a trader in real estate, he will have to take the payment of $500 into his calculation of the profit or loss of the business.



REQUEST FOR INCREASE IN PRICE OF GOLD

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
David Réal Caouette: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys, but as he is not here, I am going to put it to the Prime Minister.
Since the government has declared our region a depressed area, does it intend to consider increasing the price of gold, in order to help our region and those which are in a similar situation to recover? In my opinion, such a step would be quite important. [Text]


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, this is a question which concerns not only one region but economic policy generally, and it will be dealt with in the normal way.



INQUIRY OF THE MINISTRY

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Prime Minister. Could he tell the house if it is true, according to rumours which are circulating, that the Minister of Justice will soon be appointed president of the Canadian National Railways?



NORTHERN AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Erik Nielsen: I wish to address a question to the Minister of National Defence arising out of my question yesterday concerning the Alaska highway paving conference. The minister said that as far as he knew the resolution concerning it had not yet been placed on the agenda.
Can the minister inform the house what he means by "the agenda", and whether there is an implication in the answer that this matter will be placed on whatever agenda there is.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: There was no such implication, Mr. Speaker.


Erik Nielsen: Can the hon. gentleman inform the house what he meant by "agenda" in his reply?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: I was referring, I think, in the previous sentence to government policy, and the agenda to which I was referring was the agenda of the cabinet which would consider policy matters.



CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Thomas M. Bell (Saint John-Albert):: Has the Minister of Transport any information on the grain elevator at Saint John which was to be sold by the government?


George James McIlraith: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I am glad to be able to tell the hon. member that there is no such intention in mind. The grain elevator about which he is asking will not be sold.



TRANS-CANADA AIR LINES WINNIPEG    TRANSFER OF OVERHAUL AND MAINTENANCE BASE

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a ques-
Inquiries of the Ministry tion either to the Prime Minister or to the Minister of Transport? Is the government in a position today to make its promised statement on the retention of the T.C.A. maintenance and overhaul base at Winnipeg? If not, will a statement be made this week?


George James McIlraith: I am not in a position to make such a statement today but I expect to be able to make it this week, either tomorrow or Friday.



REPORTED INCREASE IN IMPORT QUOTAS FOR U.S. TURKEYS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Marcel Lessard (Lake St. John):: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce? Could he explain to us the reason why he has raised the quota of turkeys imported from the United States when statistics show that the Canadian production is adequate at present to meet the demand?



HARBOURS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
George James McIlraith: Mr. Speaker, yesterday the hon. member for Vancouver-Kingsway directed a question to me concerning certain leases of water lots in the Coal Harbour area of Vancouver. On reading his question this morning I noticed that it referred only to Coal Harbour Investments Limited and consequently I am able to give him the information without the necessity of putting the question on the order paper.
While negotiations have taken place between the national harbours board and Coal Harbour Investments Limited in respect of a possible lease of certain water lots on Coal Harbour in Vancouver, no final commitment has been made by the federal government through the national harbours board. Any such commitment can only be made following approval of any lease or leases by the governor general in council.



HEALTH AND WELFARE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Henry P. Latulippe: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of National Health and Welfare. In

Inquiries of the Ministry view of the fact that it is proven that purchasing power is not sufficient in Canada and that the cost of living is going up steadily, could the minister tell us when the government intends to raise family allowances to remedy the situation?


Hon. Judy V. LaMarsh (Minister of National Health and Welfare):: Mr. Speaker, any such announcement would be a matter of government policy and therefore would be made at such time as the government had determined the policy.



ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE

[Stage Direction]
IS F.L.Q. A SUBVERSIVE ORGANIZATION?
On the orders of the day:
Mr. D. M. Fisher (Port Arthur):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Minister of Justice a question arising out of the answer to my starred question 1,064 relating to the F.L.Q. and the R.C.M.P. I should like to ask the minister whether the Department of Justice defines the F.L.Q. as an organization subversive to the interests of the country. If so, could he give us any report on what our national security forces are doing in winkling out this organization?


Lionel Chevrier: With all due respect, it seems to me that this is the kind of question that should be placed on the order paper. In addition, in view of the answers I gave to related questions in the earlier part of the session it would seem that the hon. member might find a reply there. A great deal of the information he seeks has to do with something that comes under provincial and municipal jurisdiction and I would be loath to make any statement other than in reply to a question on the order paper.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Mr. Speaker, I raise the point that it is simply a question of whether this is a subversive organization. I do not think the minister can explain to me how he can expect a provincial jurisdiction to look after a subversive matter relating to the nation as a whole.


Lionel Chevrier: This is clearly not an urgent question. My hon. friend can put it on the order paper and I will see that he gets an answer.


Douglas Mason Fisher: One more bomb and it may be.



CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Robert Beaule (Quebec East):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to

the Secretary of State. Could the minister inform the house of the progress made to date in the negotiations for the establishment of a French C.B.C. television station in Quebec city?


John Whitney Pickersgill: I regret that I did not catch the question at all. I apologize to the hon. gentleman. I am afraid I was not paying attention.


Jean Robert Beaulé: I will repeat the question. Could the minister inform the house of the progress made to date in the negotiations for the establishment of a French C.B.C. television station in Quebec city?


John Whitney Pickersgill: I think that is the kind of question which would be much better put on the order paper.



REQUEST FOR IMPROVED QUARTERS FOR INTERPRETERS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Lucien Plourde (Quebec West):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to put a question to the Secretary of State. Would the hon. gentleman inform the house whether the government intends to improve the office of our interpreters or to move them to new quarters? I am speaking of room 504 which is too hot in summer, very cold in winter and much too small. I feel that this office is unsuitable for them, in view of the services they render to parliament.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I am sure Your Honour will take note of that question. It is well known that accommodation in this building is still pretty difficult.



WORLD FAIR


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Mr. Speaker, I should like to answer a question asked yesterday by the hon. member for St. Mary (Mr. Valade).
Mr. Dupuy is still with the Department of External Affairs and upon his return from various courtesy calls which he is now making in Europe, his salary will be determined.



OLD AGE SECURITY


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed, from Tuesday, October 1, consideration in committee of the following resolution-Miss LaMarsh-Mr. Lamoureux in the chair:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to amend the Old Age Security Act to increase the pension under the said act from $65 a month to $75 a month, effective October 1, 1963, and to increase the rate of old age security tax from the present rate of 3 per cent with a maximum of $90 to a rate of 4 per cent with a maximum of $120 on the taxable income of individuals, applicable to the 1964 and subsequent taxation years.
John Whitney Pickersgill: Last evening when the committee adjourned I sought to put on the record one paragraph from a publication called, "Policies of the Liberal Party, General Election, 1963." Perhaps I could just read it. The heading is "Establish a new national minimum of $75 a month pension," and it is as follows:
To help people already retired, who have not had the chance to contribute under the new Liberal plan, a minimum supplementary pension of $10 a month will be paid from the start, out of the pension fund established by contributions. This will raise the total old age pension to $75 for a single or widowed person, $140 for a married couple.
Now, when the government considered this matter after the election we came to the conclusion that it was not practical to limit it to $140 for a married couple and that all persons should be treated alike, whether or not they were married, and it should be uniformly set at $75. Up until late August or the beginning of September it was hoped that the government, as was evidenced in the house, could carry out the plan in all other essentials as outlined in this literature. When it became apparent, as it did early in September in the light of developments in two of the provinces, that in order to work out arrangements that would be fair to the public in those provinces and elsewhere in Canada it would take a longer time than had originally been expected, it was then decided to go ahead with the measure that is now being recommended to the house.
The only other point on which I wish to say a single word is this: It was said by several hon. members on the other side, and quite correctly, that the government said this would not be done out of taxes but out of contributions. This is quite correct, as is shown by the passage that I read. Now, sir, when that was put in the literature I think all of us understood quite clearly what that meant. It was not going to be paid out of general revenues, and indeed in one of the other publications we said quite specifically it would not be added to the budgetary
Old Age Security
deficit. Therefore, when it was decided to separate these two measures, it was felt whatever funds would be required to defray this extra $10 should be raised separately and distinctly and be paid into the existing old age security fund. This is what is proposed in this measure. While it is true that, in one sense, that is a tax, it does not go into the consolidated fund but into a separate and distinct fund which can be used only for old age security. It really does, I think, perhaps not fulfil the letter but it does fulfil the spirit of this phrase that the $10 a month will be paid from the start out of the pension fund. It is true it is out of the existing pension fund and not out of the new one. It certainly does not conform with the letter of this paragraph, and I do not think any of us pretend it does.
We have sought to deal with the matter responsibly. While raising the pension, we have sought at the same time to make provision for the raising of the necessary funds to pay this pension so it will not add to the general budgetary deficit of the country.


William Heward Grafftey: May I ask the hon. member a question?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Yes.


William Heward Grafftey: Can the hon. member inform the house whether or not the government was aware of Mr. Lesage's intention when the hon. lady introduced the contributory plan before the recess? Was she informed of Mr. Lesage's intention to go ahead with a provincial plan when she introduced her plan to the house before the recess?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Quite frankly, I am bound to confess I am not in the position, without reference to the documents, to answer that.


Alfred Dryden Hales: The minister is in the house.


John Whitney Pickersgill: The minister is in the house, and I am sure the minister is well able to speak for herself and will probably answer when I have finished these few remarks. I do not believe I should attempt to answer for the minister. I can say this, that at the time the speech from the throne was presented in the other place there was no knowledge on the part of the government of the plan that Mr. Lesage subsequently announced.
The sole point I am seeking to make is that we admit right off that, because of circumstances, we were not able to carry out the plan we originally brought before this house within the time in which we expected to do it. Because of certain expectations, which I think in a good many cases were justified, we came to the conclusion we should deal

Old Age Security
with the matter in the best, practical way- that is what most members of the government-


Mr. Pugh:: A high tax government.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I think that is what most of the people in the country would like us to do. I do not believe the members of the public are interested in the threshing of old political straw. I hope we can now get on and adopt this resolution.


Mr. Horner (Acadia):: Let us adopt it, then; sit down.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I wonder if I could be heard? Since there has been general concurrence on this question, perhaps we could get on and adopt the resolution with which all of us seem to be in substantial agreement.


Michael Starr: I should like to ask the Minister of National Health and Welfare a question. It is based on a fact of which I am aware, namely that a 1 per cent tax will raise some $150 million annually.
Now, if that is so is it not then logical to assume that the difference between $116 million and $150 million would pay for the six month's retroactivity we have asked for in order to have this dated back to April 8? Why raise this money to that excess when you are not going to use it for the purpose of increasing the old age pensions? Why not use the difference in that amount to make the pension increase retroactive to April 8, in the same way as we members of the house voted an increase in our own salaries retroactive to April 8?


Julia Verlyn (Judy) LaMarsh: Mr. Chairman, my colleague the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Finance would ordinarily answer such a question, but since it has been asked of me I would refer my hon. friend to Hansard of yesterday's date and the day before, in which it was indicated that the amount to be raised in a full year is $100 million per 1 percentage point of personal income tax, and not $150 million; that it is some $13 million which will be raised in the last three months of this fiscal year when it is proposed to be instituted; and that $116 million will be required in a full year for the old age pension increase.


William Heward Grafftey: Would the hon. lady be kind enough to answer the question I put to the Secretary of State as to whether or not, when she introduced her universal contributory pension plan, she was aware of Mr. Lesage's intention to proceed with a provincial plan in the province of Quebec?


Julia Verlyn (Judy) LaMarsh: I think my hon. friend is under some misapprehension. It was the

unanimous action of the Quebec legislature in August of this year, while this house was not in session and as a matter of fact when I was out of the country studying pension matters in other countries, which resulted in adopting a resolution calling for a comprehensive and compulsory provincial program. This was the triggering factor in the decision to proceed with the separation of the $10 increase from the Canada pension plan.


William Heward Grafftey: Was the hon. lady not aware at the time she introduced her plan on July 18 that Mr. Lesage intended to go ahead with a provincial plan in Quebec?


Julia Verlyn (Judy) LaMarsh: Well, Mr. Chairman, I have used one of our two national languages in as clear and explicit a manner as I can, and I am sorry that through some personal deficiency of his my hon. friend is unable to comprehend my answer.


The Chairman:: The hon. member for
Humboldt-Melfort-Tisdale.


Mr. Rapp:: Mr. Chairman-


William Heward Grafftey: -The question can be put to you in French. I shall ask you the question in French, if you want.


Lucien Lamoureux: Order. The hon. member for Humboldt-Melfort-Tisdale has the floor.


Reynold Rapp: Mr. Chairman, in speaking on this resolution to amend the Old Age Security Act, I would like to say at the outset that I am in full agreement with amending it in order to bring about an increase in the pension from $65 to $75 per month. However there are one or two things with which I do not agree, and one is that I believe the pension should be made retroactive to April 8.
The other matter, which is of much concern to me and to some old age pensioners in my area, is that while a married couple will benefit greatly from the increase, a single pensioner or a remaining spouse will find it very difficult to live on $75 per month. Actually this is not sufficient. First the cost of living has gone up, and even though single pensioners may own their own homes, their taxes have also gone up. This all creates hardship for the single pensioner.
I am prevented by the rules from presenting an amendment but I would like the minister to give some consideration to this matter. It might be possible to establish a means test so that single pensioners could get more than $75 a month. In the northern area of Saskatchewan which I represent there are many people who will not benefit greatly from this pension increase, and during my stay at

home during the recess I was approached by some of them and was asked to bring this matter to the notice of the minister.
I would like to ask the minister to give consideration to this matter before the bill is introduced, so that it may be possible to devise measures whereby the pensioners to whom I have referred will receive a benefit equal to that received by married couples.


Wallace Bickford (Wally) Nesbitt: I have just a brief word to say to the minister concerning something about which perhaps she may not be aware. It has been brought to the attention of myself and a number of other members that there are certain companies in Canada who have former employees on pension, but the pension arrangements are such that if an increase is given in the old age pension these few companies-and I take it that fortunately there are very few-have the unpleasant habit of reducing the pensions they pay to their former employees by the amount of old age pension increase.
I realize the difficulty which the minister would have in doing anything about such a situation, but I hope she would discuss it with the Minister of Finance and the Minister of National Revenue. Sometimes there are indirect ways, if not direct ways, of stopping this kind of unpleasant occurrence.
I have a number of letters on my desk dealing with this matter, but I will not take the time to read them. I know other members have received similar letters, and perhaps the minister has also. I hope some consideration could be given to attempting to stop these companies from doing this.


Julia Verlyn (Judy) LaMarsh: The matter to which my hon. friend refers was recently brought to my attention by the hon. member for Kootenay East who headed a delegation to me regarding one such company pension program. It will be appreciated that each individual program differs and the legal position depends on the phraseology of each particular program. In this particular instance it appeared that the amount of the pension would be reduced by any contribution which the company might have to make directly or indirectly through taxation; but I would call my hon. friend's attention to the way in which the money for this increase is being raised, that is by way of personal taxation. In my own opinion, although I do not intend to give the house a legal opinion, that company would be unjustified in making a reduction in payment to their pensioners on such a basis.
However, all such contracts may not have the same phraseology, and it may be appreciated that there is no way in which the federal government can interfere in private 28902-5-200
Old Age Security
matters. Certainly such action is frowned upon, and in passing legislation such as this it is the intention of the government, and indeed of the whole house, to pass the benefit on to the old age pensioners, and not in effect to reduce the obligation of a company to pay pensions to those already on pension.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I am very pleased to hear the minister's comments with respect to this proposal, which has been made by a certain company in the constituencies of Kootenay East and Kootenay West, the Consolidated Mining and Smelting Company. I am sure she has been well informed of the situation which has arisen there and which has caused serious concern to the pensioners, employees, unions representing them, and many other people in the district who have been rather appalled at the suggestion on the part of the Consolidated Mining and Smelting Company that, as a result of a certain bylaw in their pension fund, they have the legal right to deduct this $10 if there is an increase in old age security pensions. Therefore I think the minister raised a very good point-it is one that I intended to raise-on the basis of their not being taxed for this increase. In this case, whether we agree with it or not, the proposal in the resolution is a personal income tax increase, and I know the minister has received representations from the representatives of the employees concerned.
I must say I was very pleased to hear her sympathetic approach to the situation. No doubt there is sometimes an advantage in having a lady minister. You can arouse a lady minister's humanitarian instincts when sometimes this cannot be done with the Secretary of State and some others I know. I am sure this statement on the part of the minister will be welcomed by the employees concerned and I trust the government will use its good influences to make certain there is no effect to the proposal of the company as forwarded, to the pensioners a short time ago. The company must see that it is most unfair and has not the support of this government or the members of this house.
Mr. Chairman, I rose just briefly to say how pleased I am that there is this increase of $10 a month. It should be more. It is very necessary. But even the $10 will be very welcome to the thousands of pensioners in this country who have been looking forward to it for some months.


Marcel Lessard: Mr. Chairman, I had no intention of taking part in this debate, but since we are on the third day of the debate and I realized that many members still want to express their views, I figured I should do the same myself.

Old Age Security
I see that a matter we all agree on takes several hours of discussion to be adopted even at the resolution stage. I am very sorry about that.
I would particularly like to raise the following points. I would like to talk about the history of the proposal. When the Minister of National Health and Welfare submitted her resolution last spring, it seemed to be linked with the pension plan. At that time, the opposition exerted pressures to have the $10 separated from the pension scheme. During the summer, events forced the government to modify its view and I wish to thank the administration for making the $10 old age pension increase a plan separate from the pension plan. Otherwise, the government would have linked two things entirely different in nature.
Mr. Chairman, yesterday we saw the official opposition ask that the $10 increase be paid retroactive to April 8. I am wondering about their sincerity. Why not make it retroactive to June 22 of last year, when the official opposition was in office, a time when it could have offered that $10 increase to old age pensioners. The government of that time could have relied on our support and would have also been able to rely on the support of the then official opposition. I feel that this $10 increase would have been welcome at the time and we would not have to try and make it retroactive today.
Therefore, I believe that yesterday the gentlemen in opposition did not prove their earnestness in any way.
If we admit that the $10 increase is justified, we must make sure that it is adopted as soon as possible in order that our old people may receive an extra $10 at the end of this month with their regular cheque.
If we admit that the increase is necessary, I feel we should not continue to play politics as was done during the past three days at the expense of the elderly people of this country, who are waiting for us to deal fairly with them.
Mr. Chairman, this increase in the old age pension will be financed through a 1 per cent increase of the workers' income tax. According to the philosophy that we advocate in Social Credit, obviously that old age pension increase would not have been accompanied by an increase of the personal income tax. Where are we going with a system where everything boils down to a tax increase?
The minister said that she had to look for the $118 or $120 million she needs in the taxpayers' pockets. However, I notice that in her general pension scheme, there is a key phrase which, in my opinion, is the substance of the whole program, and that is where she says that the amounts of money
[Mr. Lessard (Lake St. John) .1
which shall be given back to the Canadian citizen upon their retirement, will include the contributions of all the people, less administration costs which have been estimated at about $12 million per year. In short, a dollar will be taken from us and we will get it back years later, less the value of those $12 million in the total amount.
Mr. Chairman, we must ask ourselves what efficiency there is in this procedure. I regret that, in the twentieth century, it is still impossible to finance social security measures in our country without taxing the income of the workers who are growing fewer and fewer. That will inevitably put a heavier burden on each worker.
I am of the opinion that all those increases will discourage the workers from showing initiative and that the government will have to study, as soon as possible, ways of financing the country's administration other than by taxation.
Mr. Chairman, in the private sector there is a growing tendency to prepare budgets according to revenue, that is to say, an estimate of revenue is made and expenditures are reduced so that they may be covered by revenue.
On the other hand, at all levels of government, the opposite is true today, that is to say, governments make an estimate of their expenditures and then look for sources of revenue. Departments prepare estimates of expenditures, sometimes more or less justified, and which do not give the results reasonably expected. And the ministers then ask the house to finance the cost through tax increases.
Mr. Chairman, I feel that this procedure should no longer be followed and that means should be found to finance increased social security benefits without resorting to personal taxation, affecting workers especially.
As a matter of fact, I wonder who the government will tax in the year two thousand, when it is expected that workers will no longer be employed as such, will no longer be paid by industry, or will be replaced by electronic brains? Will taxes be levied on electronic brains then? This is what we should ask ourselves.
Mr. Chairman, I am of the opinion that the resolution should be passed immediately so that the bill may be considered and passed for the benefit of all those who will get the increase at the end of the month.


Mr. Thomas:: Mr. Chairman, I have one question. We know that the old age security program is very closely related in the minds of the people to our over-all welfare program. I would like to ask the minister

whether the government has in mind extending this $10 per month increase to those entitled to old age assistance, blind persons and disabled persons. To do otherwise at this time would, I think, create a great deal of confusion in the minds of our elder citizens, and I think this question should be cleared up. I would like to ask the minister what the government intends to do about the extension of this $10 increase to the shared programs of the provinces.


Julia Verlyn (Judy) LaMarsh: Mr. Chairman, we consulted the provinces with respect to our intentions in this regard at the conference held earlier in the month, and my hon. friend can rest assured that when the consultations are completed an announcement in this regard will be made. I personally share my hon. friend's view with respect to the shared-cost programs. However, it should be borne in mind that two of the programs are shared fifty-fifty by the province and the federal government, and one is shared 75 per cent by the federal government, and 25 per cent by the provincial and that increases which are enacted by the federal government without consultation with the provinces may, particularly in a smaller province, impose a rather heavy financial burden which has not been budgeted for. It is for this reason that the government is consulting with all ten provinces before making any announcement.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Chairman, just before passing this resolution, which could have been passed last night had it not been for the intervention of the Secretary of State-we were ready to go ahead with it and we could have been on second reading of the bill today; it is unfortunate that delay should have occurred -may I rise for a minute or two to make a remark concerning the statement made today by the Secretary of State. I hope it will not pass unnoticed that he has now publicly admitted that which we all knew, that the election literature of the Liberal party this year was inaccurate and deliberately calculated to mislead the public. He has now made this statement in the house, and I hope it will serve as a lesson to his party in the future not to put before the people facts which cannot be verified, and mislead them by inaccuracies such as were displayed in their literature. The fact that he has now admitted this is surely an indication of a change of heart on the part of the Liberal party. But I hope this has not gone unnoticed. Yesterday when we drew attention, through the hon. member for Bow River, to inaccurate statements in Liberal party election literature, it was denied by the minister of national health 28902-5-200i
Old Age Security
and objected to by the Secretary of State, and we produced proof that these inaccuracies occurred in their literature.


Mr. Cameron (Nanaimo-Cowichan-The Islands):: Mr. Chairman, I had not intended to intervene in this debate on the resolution but I feel impelled to do so on account of the statements which have recently been made and the spectacle we had last night. This resolution and the bill it precedes is a matter of great importance to hundreds of thousands of old age pensioners-heart-rending importance. It is also a matter of great economic importance to the whole community. One would have thought it would be possible to discuss the merits of this bill, the material and substantive content of it. But what did we have? We had a debate, if one can dignify the performance yesterday by that word, which resolved itself merely into name calling, into attempting to prove that this cabinet minister said this and that private member said that, and finally degenerated into a most vulgar shouting contest in this house, a display which brought no credit on parliamentary institutions and must have created an extremely bad impression in the galleries of this chamber.
I would suggest, Mr. Chairman, that those who have been using this bill as a political football should realize that the old age pensioners of this country are not interested in whether or not this party or that party misled them. They are interested in some relief from the straitened circumstances of their lives. It was perhaps too much to be hoped that hon. members, having raised themselves to the economic level of $18,000 a year in a society that measures all virtue in dollars, would have improved their intellectual contributions in this chamber. After all, intellectual contributions are dependant upon intellectual capacities. But surely it was not too much to hope that having accepted, shall we say with graciousness and a certain alacrity, this generous treatment on the part of the people of Canada, some hon. members might at least have taken some lessons in elementary civilized behaviour. A fool is always difficult to endure. A well-mannered fool is less unendurable than a lout. I would suggest, Mr. Chairman, that members of this house should bear in mind that the public are watching them, watching them with a very much more critical eye than they did before the recent increase in the indemnities of the members of parliament. I hope that we are not again going to be treated to the disgraceful exhibition to which we were treated yesterday.
Resolution reported and concurred in.

Old Age Security
Miss LaMarsh thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. C-98, to amend the Old Age Security Act.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: When shall the said bill be read the second time?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I do not know whether it would be the disposition of the house to start second reading now. That would require unanimous consent. I am entirely in the hands of the house in the matter. If we do not do that we would proceed with the resolution for the remaining 20 minutes concerning vocational training. As I said, I am entirely in the hands of the house.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Is the bill printed and are copies available?


John Whitney Pickersgill: I am informed by the Chair that there are 20 copies here and others coming up.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the request but with only 20 minutes available and the bill not yet distributed throughout the house we might very well defer this to another occasion. I do not see any prolonged debate now that we have passed the resolution stage; but why cannot we do this in the ordinary manner?


John Whitney Pickersgill: I am perfectly agreeable. Then I think we should say the next sitting of the house, and we can go ahead with the vocational training resolution for the remaining time today.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Before that is done may I ask whether, despite the announcement made about future business, the bill could be proceeded with tomorrow? We seem to be assured that it will not take very long. Cannot we do that, rather than leaving it over to next week?


John Whitney Pickersgill: I thought I would defer any announcement of the business until six o'clock, but if hon. members would permit me perhaps it is convenient to announce it now when more members are here. The government, as I indicated earlier, intends first of all tomorrow to ask for interim supply, and like all governments we hope that that will not take long. Then we will go on immediately after that with the old age security bill as soon as interim supply is dealt with.


Gordon Minto Churchill: You should reverse the order.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Mr. Chairman, I would hardly think that interim supply would go so quickly tomorrow that we would deal with it in that time. This seems to me an excellent opportunity to deal with the bill now. It is very
[Mr. Cameron (Nanaimo-Cowichan-The Islands) .1
small bill. There is hardly anything in it that can be discussed which has not already been discussed on the resolution. It might be that the private members would be willing to forego some of their time, in which case it would give us another hour, or an hour and twenty minutes on this bill. If we leave this bill until after interim supply has been considered it would mean we would not reach it until Friday, or possibly, Monday.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Why not put the bill on tomorrow as the first item, and interim supply as the second? No matter what we do today or tomorrow, or the next day, and should the house be in agreement, the cheques would not be issued tomorrow or the next day; the amount would be added to the next monthly allotment, so no old age pensioner would be deprived in any way. All I am suggesting is that we conduct the business of this house in accordance with the normal procedure, and the normal procedure will not delay the passage of this measure, except for the next 20 minutes. That is all.


John Whitney Pickersgill: So that there may be no misunderstanding, I wish to make it clear that the government has no option but to go ahead with interim supply as the first item of business tomorrow. Otherwise, there would be other cheques which would not go out in time. We are asking Their Honours in another place to be available on Friday to deal with interim supply. I am told by the treasury that on account of the Thanksgiving holiday and other considerations we are under a certain pressure. I had originally hoped we would not be obliged to ask for interim supply until Friday but I have been advised we would be taking unnecessary parliamentary risks if we waited until then and I think it would not be responsible to do that. I still hope that since the estimates of all the departments except two have still to be considered hon. members will find it possible to deal with interim supply quickly and that we can then get on to this bill in the normal course of business, as the hon. member for Winnipeg South Centre (Mr. Churchill) has suggested. Perhaps, meanwhile, the vocational training item could be called.


Mr. Monleiih:: So that there may be no misunderstanding about the inclusion of an increase in the October cheques, may I say that the bill providing for an increase in old age security in 1962 received its second reading on February 6 and third reading on February 7; the February cheques included the increase. The date today is October 2 and there is ample time to assure that these people receive their money.


Mr. Speaker:: When shall this bill be read the second time? Next sitting of this house.



TECHNICAL AND VOCATIONAL TRAINING ASSISTANCE ACT


John Whitney Pickersgill: that the house go into committee to consider the following resolution:
That it is expedient, as a means towards the further development of manpower in Canada and towards increasing employment opportunities for Canadians, to introduce a measure to amend the Technical and Vocational Training Assistance Act:
(a)	to provide that in respect of the costs incurred by a province as training allowances for unemployed persons, the contributions payable by Canada to the province be increased from 75 per cent to such percentage, not exceeding 90 per cent, as may be specified in the agreement made under the act between the Minister of Labour and the province;
(b)	to provide in respect of the costs incurred by the province for such part of the program for training employed persons in industry as may be specified in the agreement, the contributions payable by Canada to the province be increased from 50 to 75 per cent thereof;
(c)	to extend, until such date as may be specified in the agreement made under the act between the Minister of Labour and the province, the period during which the contributions payable by Canada to the province will be 75 per cent in respect of costs incurred by the province for capital expenditures on training facilities; and
(d)	to increase the number of members of the technical vocational training advisory council from twenty three to twenty eight and to provide an honorarium for the chairman thereof.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Lamoureux in the chair.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I should just like to say to the committee that the absence of the Minister of Labour arises through no discourtesy on his part but as a result of very urgent business which, as I am sure all hon. members will understand, makes it impossible for him to be here. His parliamentary secretary will, with the leave of the committee, be acting on his behalf.


Mr. J. A. Byrne (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Labour):: In the limited
time at my disposal I shall attempt to make a statement outlining the program to be established under this bill. Having regard to the fact that the first resolution to be considered during the private members' hour has to do, I believe, with the problem of older workers, I am wondering whether the committee would not agree to allowing me, if necessary, three or four minutes extra in which to complete this statement so that it may be complete before we continue the discussion at the next sitting of the house.
Vocational Training Assistance Act
On June 10 the minister announced to the house a number of measures which set forth the government's new employment and manpower development program. This program is designed to provide a co-ordinated attack on unemployment, to stimulate manpower development and training, and to increase the employment security of the Canadian work force, particularly during the winter months.
A number of these measures are designed to improve the federal-provincial program of technical and vocational training, particularly in the strategic areas of increasing the training of the unemployed and in stimulating the training of adult and employed workers so that they can adapt to automation and other industrial changes.
Most importantly, the provision of capital facilities for the training of youth and adults under the Technical and Vocational Training Act of 1960 is far from complete in many of the provinces. It is, therefore, important to continue a high level of federal financial assistance to those provinces which still need to develop extensive training facilities.
These amendments to the Technical and Vocational Training Assistance Act are intended to stimulate greatly the training of the unemployed; to provide for the stimulation of training in industry, particularly where such training is important to the adaptation	of workers to technological
change; and to provide for the extension of capital facilities in the provinces where the needs are greatest.
I should like now to take up the objectives of each of these amendments in more detail so as to provide the committee with a basis for their detailed consideration.
Raising the federal share of training allowance
of unemployed persons from 75 per cent to 90 per cent
The importance of training the unemployed cannot be over-estimated. Basically, a large portion of the unemployed are not suited for the expanding employment opportunities of the Canadian economy because of their relatively low levels of education and skill. Many of them will not be in a position to secure re-employment, until they are provided with new skills and their basic levels of training raised. The necessary stepping up of the rate of training for the unemployed depends on the co-operation and resources of the provinces and of municipalities across Canada. The basic role of the provinces in this program is to provide teachers and training facilities for which they are, of course, reimbursed to the extent of 75 per cent of their expenditures. The proposal that 90 per cent of cost of training allowances be assumed by the federal

Vocational Training Assistance Act government will release needed funds for the provinces to undertake their basic job of providing training programs. The minister would like to see the rate of training of the unemployed reach a level of 70,000 over the next 12 months, from the level of 38,000 which was achieved during the last fiscal year. In addition to providing additional support for training allowances, the government intends to strengthen the national employment service so as to improve selection and placement facilities for those undertaking training programs and to provide every necessary technical support to assist the provinces in improving the techniques for the training of the unemployed. In short, it is the minister's intention to do everything possible to provide effective and balanced training programs for the unemployed in line with their individual needs and those of the economy.
Raising of the federal share of training costs in industry from 50 per cent to 75 per cent
Training in industry is basic to meeting the technological and other needs of the changing industrial scene and in avoiding unemployment which results from technological displacement. Very little has been done under the auspices of the Technical and Vocational Training Assistance Act to stimulate training in industry, particularly in those areas of training which are not directly related to the short term of occupational needs of employers. Our proposals to amend the act are designed to enable industry to develop those kinds of training which are important to the long run employment security of workers, but which do not yield immediate returns to industry.
The increase to 75 per cent in the rate of the federal reimbursement to the provinces will enable them to provide increased support to the training activities of industry in three strategic areas.
First, the upgrading of the general educational level of the employed labour force through programs of basic training for skill development. This is important if workers' skills are not to become obsolete, resulting in unemployment and income loss.
Second, apprenticeship training programs, which are a basic form of training for the skilled trades, are lagging badly and this increased financing will provide much needed additional support for the development of apprenticeship programs in Canadian industry.
Third, on June 10 the minister announced the introduction of a program designed to assist industry and labour to provide for the development of manpower adjustment programs to meet the needs of changing technology in industry. An important aspect of the

development of manpower adjustment programs is the provision of retraining for workers who will be permanently displaced if they are not retrained. Again, under this amendment we will reimburse the provinces for 75 per cent of industry's costs of conducting retraining programs for potentially displaced workers in the context of a manpower adjustment program.
The third objective is the extension of the 75 per cent contribution in respect of capital costs for training facilities. The Technical and Vocational Training Assistance Act provides in section 4 for a contribution by the federal government of 50 per cent of capital expenditures incurred by the provinces in training facilities until the expiry of agreements on March 31, 1967, plus an additional 25 per cent if these capital expenditures were incurred before April 1, 1963. The additional 25 per cent federal contribution in the legislation was intended to act as a special incentive to encourage the provinces to close the gap in vocational training facilities rapidly in the two years from April, 1961, to April, 1963.
This provision of the legislation resulted in an uneven response by the provinces in meeting their needs for training facilities. The plans of some of the provinces were much more advanced than others at the beginning of the period. Today the provinces stand in an unequal position with respect to the degree to which they have succeeded in meeting their needs for vocational training facilities.
The approved federal contributions to capital expenditures up to March 31, 1963, on a per capita basis in the age group 15 to 19 years, indicate that there is substantial variation among the provinces. This figure ranges from $51 per capita in Quebec to $480 in Newfoundland. For Canada as a whole the per capita average is $225.
These variations in the per capita contribution per person in the student age group represent substantial differences in the extent to which the provinces have been able to meet the needs for increased training facilities. This is not to say that the need on a per student basis is equal in each of the provinces but rather that there exists at present considerable inequality in the outstanding needs of the provinces for additional training facilities. The government is proposing, to enable these provinces which have not as yet undertaken building programs sufficient to meet their needs, that the 25 per cent additional contribution be continued on the following basis, which will be provided for in the amendment to the legislation.
The highest per capita federal contribution approved up to March 31, 1963, is $480, which sets the top standard for the federal

contribution on a 75 per cent basis. This happens to be the case for the province of Newfoundland. It is proposed that other provinces be allowed to meet this per capita standard of $480 so that the additional federal contribution of 25 per cent will be continued in each province until the per capita of federal payments in the province has reached this standard of $480, or until expiry of the present agreement on March 31, 1967, whichever is sooner. Once the $480 per capita standard has been reached in a province, they will, of course, be eligible for a continuing 50 per cent contribution to capital until the end of the agreement.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: I should like to ask the parliamentary secretary a question. The $480 is the per capita of what? Certainly it is not of the population. It is not clear. What is it?


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: Students in the 15 to 19 age group.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: I see.


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: This formula is designed to equalize the application of the additional 25 per cent contribution to capital up to the standard of the highest province. As a result all provinces will be enabled to meet their needs for vocational training facilities on the basis of an equitable sharing of the federal contribution to capital.
I have a table here which, of course, is not completely accurate because to a degree it is difficult to determine the number of students in the age group between 15 and 19. However, if the committee permits I should like to table this schedule which shows the amount available to each province up to 1967 based on $480 per capita of students in the 15 to 19 age group. The figures range from a high of $224 million in Quebec to $367,000 in the Yukon. I ask permission for this table to appear in Hansard.


Lucien Lamoureux: Is it agreed?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
[Editor's note: The table referred to above is as follows:]
'Amount Available To Each Province Up To 1967 Based on $480 Per Capita Of Students 15 To 19 Age Group
Newfoundland
Prince Edward Island
Nova Scotia
New Brunswick
Quebec
Ontario
Manitoba
Saskatchewan
Alberta

Labour Conditions
British Columbia Northwest Territories Yukon
54,073,440
815,520
367,200


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: As of March 31 of this year 138,000 additional student places have been provided under the capital provisions of the act. If all provinces were to take maximum advantage of the additional 25 per cent contribution, on the basis of the formula that has been outlined above there would be at least a doubling of the enrolment capacity of our vocational and technical training system.
The fourth objective is an increase in the number of members of the technical and vocational training advisory council. It is proposed to amend the legislation to provide for an increase in the number of members of the technical and vocational training advisory council from 23 to 28. The council has done an effective job in advising on the technical and vocational training programs in Canada and in assisting in co-ordinating the activities of the federal government and the provinces. It has become evident, however, that representation from labour and employer organizations and from other national groups, interested in technical and vocational training, requires strengthening in the light of the greatly expanding training programs, particularly with respect to the training of adult employed and unemployed workers. It is also proposed that the chairman of the council, who is making a significant contribution, be provided with an honorarium for his services.


Lucien Lamoureux: So that the house may proceed to the consideration of private members' business, pursuant to section 3 of standing order 15, it is my duty to rise, report progress and request leave to sit again later this day or at the next sitting of the house as the case may be.
Progress reported.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: It being five o'clock, it is my duty to leave the chair in order that the house may proceed to consideration of private members' business pursuant to section 3 of standing order 15.
ITextl



LABOUR CONDITIONS


Wallace Bickford (Wally) Nesbitt: That, in the opinion of this house, the government should take into consideration the establish-

Labour Conditions
raent of appropriate measures to encourage the employment of persons over the age of 40 in business and industry.
He said: I believe, Mr. Speaker, that perhaps one of the greatest problems faced by most members of this house, and one of the most difficult problems, is requests for aid from constituents who are over the age of 40 and who find difficulty in obtaining employment. This problem, of course, has existed for a good many years. I believe it has been aggravated and accelerated very greatly since the conclusion of world war II. There are several reasons for this. The first is the increased rate of automation in industry, where hand labour is more and more becoming less and less important. Many persons who are in their forties or fifties, and who have learned to do one thing during their lives, find they have been displaced. They feel they are unable to learn a new trade at this age. They feel at a loss, and do not know what to do.
Another reason that this matter is becoming more aggravated since world war II is the terms of some pension schemes that we find in industry. This has particular reference, of course, to the cost of these schemes. The third reason is the extension of the human life span in the last 25 years or so. Formerly people used to live perhaps only to 55, 60 or 65. The life span has been greatly extended, of course, and this should affect our thinking about retirement age. Certainly during the depression of the thirties, it was felt these people should retire to make work available for younger people. This thinking is pretty well outdated now. People live very much longer. A great many people at the age of 65, so I am told, do not feel a bit like retiring. They are quite capable of carrying on useful work and perhaps, in some cases, better able to do their work as a result of the experience they have gained.
These are three reasons that I believe have aggravated ths problem since world war II. If I may repeat them, they are, one, automation; two, the terms of many company pension schemes; three, the extension of the human life span which has not changed the thinking of people but should have changed the thinking of people in respect of retirement age. This subject has been brought before the house by myself and other hon. members on various occasions within the last ten years. Some of these members are here today and some are no longer with us. I have dealt with this subject at great length on previous occasions, so I do not believe I should repeat what I have said in the past and so waste the time of the house. Today I wish to bring forward some new ideas and suggestions for dealing with this subject. For those

who are interested, I may say that I dealt with this subject previously and my speech is recorded in volume 1 of Hansard lor 1959, page 526. I mentioned one thing at that time to which I should like to refer now. If I may say so, Mr. Speaker, I think I put the matter rather succinctly at the time and as it is rather important background material, I shall, therefore, take the liberty of quoting myself for a minute or two.
The fact that the Canadian population is growing older, coupled with trends which result in the reduction or withdrawal from employment of important proportions of our older workers, constitutes a very grave national problem that requires the closest scrutiny, not only from all levels of government but from labour, industry and private individuals as well.
If I may elaborate on that briefly, Mr. Speaker, I would say this is not the prime responsibility of the federal government by any means. It is the responsibility of provincial governments, labour groups, employer groups, and indeed the public at large.
It is very interesting to note that in 1881 the number of Canadians over 40 comprised about 20 per cent of the population. By 1951 they had increased to about 33 per cent. When we consider this trend in relation to the fact that one of the chief difficulties facing the national employment service in matching unplaced applicants with unfilled jobs is the tendency on the part of employers to reject applicants over 40 years of age, one major aspect of this increasingly grave problem is illustrated.
Again, if I may refer briefly to the population figures in 1881, we see that there were 15 adults under 65 years of age to every 1 over 65, whereas today there are only 7 adults under 65 to every 1 over 65. By 1970 it is estimated the proportion will be over 5 to 1. When we consider the effect of the trend toward more pension plans with the compulsory retirement age now normally set at 65, another major aspect of this problem is seen. We are confronted with the problem of whether or not it is economically possible to maintain a high standard of living here in Canada in the face of trends which show an increasing number of older people retired or withdrawn from the productive section of our economy. At the same time the effect of this trend is to reduce their ability to consume goods, and to place the burden of production and taxation upon a decreasing percentage of the population. This trend is not likely to change. I am not including in these remarks those older workers who through ill health or personal desire wish to withdraw from the labour force. I am dealing solely with those older workers who wish to work and who either cannot obtain employment or are forced to retire.

Apart from the economic factors involved in this matter, severe social problems are also created. When older persons cannot obtain employment or are forced to retire, many feel that society has no further use for them and they become depressed and dejected. Older persons in this group who have not developed hobbies and other interests during their lives are often left completely alone; their families grow up and their friends either move away or pass away. If such people could work their time would be occupied and they would feel they were doing something useful. Without the work which they desire, there is often very little left but the feeling that they are a burden on society.
There are reasons given for the present resistance by business to hiring older workers, and I would like to refer the house to two surveys made in this regard. One report has been prepared by the information branch of our Department of Labour. This was in 1952, and while there have been some additions to it since then, it is a very complete work and I would commend it to the attention of hon. members.
Another report on this matter was prepared by the Ontario department of public welfare, and it refers to a survey made in the United States, known as the Seven Cities Survey. It was made in seven major industrial cities contiguous to the Canadian border where conditions are very similar to those in Canada.
Both reports set out a number of reasons for this resistance by business to hiring older workers. In my previous remarks I have referred to these reasons at some length. I do not intend to repeat them here, except very briefly to enumerate a few of them.
One of the reasons given by business is that it cannot maintain normal production standards with older workers. In one survey 22.4 per cent of the businesses queried gave this as their reason.
Another reason was that older workers could not meet company physical requirements. Some 20 per cent of the businesses questioned gave that reason. A third reason was that older people are inflexible and set in their ways. Thirteen per cent gave that as their reason, but only 10 per cent gave pension and insurance costs as the reason for not hiring older people. The public normally believe that older workers are not hired because of pension plan costs, but apparently only 10 per cent of the businesses questioned gave that reason, and this is quite interesting.
I might say that these figures which I quote are taken from the Seven Cities Survey. A number of other reasons of less importance are also given, but I will not deal with them.
The survey made by our own Department of Labour says that employers are prejudiced 28902-5-201
Labour Conditions
against hiring older workers because these workers will not adapt to learning new techniques, second because of absenteeism through ill health, and third because older persons slow down and lessen activity.
It also says that company training programs call for the hiring of young people and for the development of their talents over the years, and that it would be unprofitable to invest in the training of older employees. It also says pension plans prevent companies from hiring workers of advanced age, and experience showed that in certain instances younger employees were preferred, such as waiters and waitresses, and sales people. Finally it adds as another reason, pension plans which compel workers to retire at an arbitrary age regardless of their fitness to carry on. These are the principal reasons given as a result of the surveys made in this country and the United States into the objection of companies to employing persons over the age of 40 years.
On careful examination it has been found that not one of these reasons is completely valid. Although many of them have varying degrees of validity others are purely fictional and have no validity at all. For instance, one of the reasons given is that older persons slow down and lessen productivity, but a very careful study which was made of this in Canada and the United States has shown no difference at all between people of 17 and 71 years in the amount of work they can do under "moderate" working conditions. "Moderate working conditions" means conditions prevailing in most modern industrial plants.
Another reason given was that people often prefer to have young people wait on them and work for them, but this is certainly not always the case. Very often when one goes into a store he might prefer to have an older person, experienced in handling a product, wait on him.
Something which has given rise to this problem, which I might mention here, is that since world war II, and particularly through the advertising business on this continent, there has been promoted the idea that all workers are young, beautiful girls and healthy, robust young men. This creates an image in the mind of employers that this is what the public expects and wants to see. In many service industries this is true, and it is most unfortunate that such an image has been created.
This brings us to the question of what has been done so far by the federal government, and over the years a great deal has been done by the government to help alleviate the problem.

Labour Conditions
First I would mention the national employment counselling service tor older workers. People in the older age categories with difficulty in obtaining work can obtain advice and counsel from officials of the national employment offices. This is a very good thing and very helpful.
Second, there is the public education undertaken by the federal Department of Labour. This has been done by trying to persuade the public that it is a good thing to employ older workers, and it has done much to remove the prejudice against employing such people. The department, through its public relations and information branches, has done a good job in this respect.
Third, there are the technical and vocational training courses which were set up under the former minister of labour (Mr. Starr), by which persons out of work are provided with vocational and technical training in order to help them obtain employment.
In this regard the federal-provincial plan for building technical and training schools all across the country has been of great effect, not only in helping to educate young people coming into the labour market but in providing courses for those who are unemployed and requiring additional training.
Those are three things which have been done, and now there is the portable pension plan which has been a matter of some controversy in the house. For that reason I do not wish to deal with it at this time. Certain of the provinces also have similar plans, but undoubtedly when some plan is worked out it will also help matters very greatly in respect to the problem of older people finding employment.
The last thing I want to mention in this regard is something which the present Minister of Labour has introduced and which is also a very commendable scheme. It has not come into effect yet, but when it does on November 1 outright payments will be made to industrial plants which employ persons over the age of 45. As I understand it, during the three months from November 1 to January 31 next, companies taking on workers over age 45 will be given an outright grant of 50 per cent of the wages paid, or $75 a month, whichever happens to be the lesser. These payments will continue for 12 months. The onus will be on companies and workers to prove certain information.
First of all, a company will have to prove that it has not fired some younger person and hired an older one in order to get the subsidy. Further a person being employed has to have been unemployed for six months, must be receiving no benefits under the Unemployment Insurance Act, and must have

no other pension. This is certainly a step in the right direction and the minister is to be commended on introducing the scheme.
Despite all these various things that have been done, and that are being done by the federal government, the problem is still very acute indeed. I think, Mr. Speaker, as I pointed out earlier in my remarks, it will probably increase rather than decrease over the next few years because of the trend toward an increased percentage of aged people in the population. Something more has to be done than has been done to date, and something more than is being done at the moment must be done to meet this problem. Certainly a great deal is being done to benefit the younger workers who are coming into the labour force, with all the new education schemes, technical training, and so on. This is very commendable because it will help solve the problem in the future, but to date very little has been spent on older workers.
Like most hon. members of this house I do not approve of subsidies in principle, but I think subsidies can perform a very useful service to meet a temporary emergency. While one might not like to describe assistance to older workers in this way, it is in fact a type of subsidy. One might as well meet these arguments head on and say that in the case of emergency-and I think this is an emergency-some form of subsidy or assistance should be given to older workers who through no fault of their own cannot get employment. I feel it is a valid criticism of the program of the present administration that temporary or seasonal measures are not a complete answer to assisting older workers. They are all very helpful as far as they go, but they are not a complete answer. We are faced with this problem 12 months a year, not three months a year. While I agree it is sometimes wise to try something for a short period of time to see how it works, nevertheless I think there should be long range planning and thinking in this regard. Those in government should be making some provision to assist older workers on a longer range basis than just the three months included in the plan of the present Minister of Labour.
I know that other hon. members will wish to make some remarks on this subject, Mr. Speaker, and I will try to conclude my remarks very briefly. There are a number of suggestions I should like to make for the consideration of the present government as additional ways of meeting this problem. The first is a more intensive advertising campaign by the Department of Labour. I know that to date there has been some public relations and information program in this regard, but it has not been nearly enough. It should be much,

much more. I would say that an advertising campaign by the Department of Labour should emphasize the-


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Batten):: Order. I apologize for interrupting the hon. member for Oxford but the time allotted to him has expired.


Some hon. Members:: Carry on.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Batten):: Has the
hon. member for Oxford the unanimous consent of the house to continue?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Wallace Bickford (Wally) Nesbitt: Mr. Speaker, I wish to thank hon. members of the house for their courtesy in this regard. I will try to conclude my remarks in about two minutes. First of all, as I mentioned, there should be an advertising campaign by the Department of Labour. I think this advertising campaign should emphasize the following items. First, there are the positive benefits of hiring older workers, those likely to encounter less absenteeism and who very often are more conscientious and more stable. Second, the false prejudice and myth about hiring older people should be exploded by a good, strong advertising campaign. Third, persons who are over the age of 40 at the present time should be encouraged to take training in vocational courses which are available to them. A great many older people feel they do not want to go back to school, but with a good advertising campaign I think they could be encouraged to do this.
The fourth thing which I think should be advertised in such an advertising campaign is that it should emphasize to the public that it is in the public interest to hire older workers, and I think it is a public duty to do so. As a matter of fact there could be some sort of slogan, such as, "If you are not over 40 yet, you soon will be and this might affect you too". This is just the kind of slogan that might be used to bring to mind the fact that everybody can be affected.
The second thing that I think should be done, apart from advertising, would be the giving of tax incentives to encourage companies to alter their present pension plans and retirement schemes and replace them with new ones so that compulsory retirement will not be at the age of 65. I realize this would take some working out but this is the principle I have in mind. As I say, Mr. Speaker, I do not want to take up the time of the house by going into this question in detail. I think companies could be encouraged by tax incentives to change a number of their present pension plans which force retirement at the age of 65.
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Last is the question of tax credits. I dealt with this subject on the previous occasion, in January, 1959, and it is reported in Hansard. I will not take the time of the house to go over this matter again. I would just mention the question of tax credits or deductions from taxable income of corporations. This could be done on a 12 months basis and would encourage the retaining, rehiring and employing of (a) persons over the age of 65 and (b) a similar scheme for persons over the age of 40, not in that case for rehiring or retaining but for anyone just hiring persons over the age of 40. I know this is giving a preference to people in that age group; you are now considering older workers, but in this case, because of the present problem I think such measures would be necessary for the time being.
As I have said, Mr. Speaker, I shall conclude my remarks at this stage in order that other hon. members may have an opportunity to speak on this subject. With regard to the question of tax credits, this matter was dealt with in some detail in my previous remarks and those who are interested can refer to Hansard for the details.


Mr. Joseph Macaluso (Hamilton West):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to commend the hon. member for Oxford (Mr. Nesbitt) for the remarks he made with regard to the problems of the older worker. I must agree with him to some extent, probably to a great extent, with regard to the suggestion that this is one of those problems which has really to be considered by all hon. members of this house as one that is not partisan and is completely devoid of politics. I think the hon. member showed this in his remarks and I commend him for it.
The continued growth and prosperity of any country depends to a large extent on whether industry makes the best use of available manpower. It is vital that an industrial nation like Canada fully utilize its human resources. One of the greatest barriers, as the hon. member for Oxford has stated, facing older people is that it is the policy of many employers to refuse to hire persons in the older age group regardless of whether or not they are capable of doing an efficient job. In some cases even men and women as young as 35 in my own riding have been rejected as being too old.
The belief held by many employers that a worker who has passed the age of 40 is no longer able to maintain production standards is a fallacy. It is an indictment, I believe, against our social system that workers in the over 40 age group should be deprived of gainful employment, regardless of ability and job qualifications, simply by reason of age. It

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has been said that the twentieth century belongs to youth. Increasing mechanization and the use of high speed machinery has quickened the tempo of industrial life and given added importance to youthful qualities. In the minds of many people, including some older persons themselves, the belief has arisen that once the bloom of youth has faded, rapid mental and physical deterioration begins. One need only to look around this chamber, Mr. Speaker, to see this is not so. This belief has spread to the labour market and has created discrimination in employment against older persons. Thus we have what has been called "the problem of the older worker", the majority of this group being in the 40 and over age bracket.
Canada's population has aged during the first part of this century. This has been shown by studies. This trend is likely to continue in the years ahead. These changes have affected Canada's labour force in that more than one third of Canadian workers are 40 years of age and over, and this age group will continue to increase in number. Further, young people are entering the labour market in increasing numbers due to the high birth rate of the last 15 or 20 years.
Maintaining an age balance in a company's work force is an important part of manpower planning. Many Canadian companies have been able to reduce the effects of automation and technological changes on their employees because of an age balance in their work forces, and lay-offs have been limited because planned retirements took care of the reduction in workers.
Efficient operation can result from the blending of the strength and ability of youth and the experience and judgment of mature workers. Hiring on the basis of ability, not age, can bring about a proper balance. A worker's qualifications and personal suitability are two important and main factors upon which an assessment of ability can be made.
All workers, regardless of age, have special qualities which can be useful to employers; these attributes are found in all age groups and depend largely on the individual. Young people, Mr. Speaker, generally offer speed, physical strength, agility, ambition and vigour. Older workers generally offer mature judgment, knowledge gained by experience, stability, low turnover, less absenteeism, as mentioned by the hon. member for Oxford (Mr. Nesbitt), and lower accident rates-qualities, Mr. Speaker, which can reduce costs and are essential to the success of any enterprise.
Now, Mr. Speaker, let us look at and consider some of the common obstacles to the hiring of persons past the age of 40 years and ask ourselves if these statements are correct. First, frequency of illness increases
[Mr. Macaluso.l
as we grow older; therefore, there is more absenteeism among older workers than among younger workers. Second, physical deterioration is synonymous with age; therefore, older persons are accident prone. Third, age has a direct bearing on insurance rates; therefore, the cost of pension plans mounts excessively with each new participant over 40 years of age. Fourth, as people grow older their ability to learn decreases; therefore, it is harder to train older people in new industrial methods and techniques. Fifth, a person over 40 is not as productive as he was at 20. And last, the cost of pension plans increases in proportion to the number of older workers hired, and pension plans are so set up that companies cannot accept anyone past a certain age; also many companies state that they would be happy to hire older workers except that, since they cannot enter the plan or can contribute for only a few years, it would mean turning them out at 65 with either no pension or one that is inadequate. These statements, Mr. Speaker, are in effect commonly known as "the myth of the older worker".
When is a worker an "older worker"? Although there are different points of view which may provide different answers to this question the following definition has been suggested: "The worker may be regarded as an older worker when his employability begins to become more limited because of his age". From studies which have been made it would seem that about 31 per cent of the unemployed persons in Canada at any given time are over 40 years of age and many experience prolonged periods of unemployment. Conclusive evidence that we generally subscribe to this myth that older workers are second rate employees can be found in the want-ad columns of any metropolitan daily newspaper. A study shows that over 51 per cent of classified advertisements stated definite age restrictions.
Many companies, Mr. Speaker, suffer heavy costs of labour turnover in certain job areas. Much of this recurring loss can be halted by the hiring and retention of mature workers who are more inclined to stay with the job than their younger counterparts. Industrial studies have shown in a comparison of workers over 50 with those under that age that: first, in most occupations productivity often reaches a peak in the 50's; second, older workers are less frequently absent through ill-health and fewer accidents; third, that the learning processes do not appreciably decrease; and last, that there is nothing inherent in the nature of a pension plan which makes it impossible to hire an older worker.

In many companies, it is a company's employment policy, not the pension plan itself which stands in the way of hiring older workers.
Thus, Mr. Speaker, the myth of the older worker has become very important to all Canadians. At one end of the scale, age prejudice cuts off work to increasing numbers of Canadians, while at the other end, education keeps more and more young people in school for longer periods of time. In between these two, a diminishing proportion of wage earners are maintaining the balance and are paying the bills for the many. A more even distribution of costs can be achieved through the employment and retention of more older workers.
Let us consider cutting the cost of labour turnover in industry. Canadian employers can cut their costs of labour turnovers by the hiring of the older worker, for there is less turnover among older workers, once they are employed, than among younger employees. Studies show that the worker 40 years of age and over quits his job less than one half as often as a younger worker. Further, the older worker is fired from his job less often than a younger worker. If an older worker obtains a regular job, he is more likely than a younger person to stay with the firm up to the age of normal retirement; thus older workers are better employment risks than younger persons.
There are many areas, Mr. Speaker, where the older person can readily fit into industry. There are highly skilled supervisory positions in which experience is a prime requirement. Further, there are clerical positions, repetitive jobs and jobs which offer little in the way of a career for younger people, and many other casual work positions which are more suitable to the temperament and abilities of older workers.
Further, Mr. Speaker, the older worker is just as capable of learning new processes and skills as a younger person, yet industry reserves training positions almost exclusively for youth and in doing so increases labour turnover. Industry and business can ill afford to pay the price of age prejudice.
With respect to the learning process, I submit that no one age group has a monopoly in the world of learning. Scientific studies, Mr. Speaker, have shown that generally man is intellectually more able at 50 than he was at 20; and I repeat we need only look around this chamber, Mr. Speaker. Contrary to general belief, the ability to learn does not decrease with age. It is quite possible to learn new skills, even in the twilight of life. Speaking on the mental ability of elderly people, Dr. E. J. Steiglitz, U.S. medical expert on the aged, said:
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The hair may stop growing and the pate become a polished dome fringed with silver, but the mind below this shining cupola can continue to grow in understanding, wisdom and appreciation of life.
A Canadian study in the retail trade lends weight to the fact that older persons can readjust, and in the light of this evidence it is time that industry and business accept the fact that it is possible to learn at any age and that learning ability is not the exclusive property of any age group.
Contrary to popular belief, the older worker is less prone to accidents and less likely to be absent than the younger worker. The accident and absenteeism records of older workers are reasons in themselves why the older worker should be welcomed by employers. The absenteeism rates of workers show marked improvements after age 45, and at the same time, are less prone to accidents.
Any industry concerned with the reduction of direct and indirect costs of absenteeism is hardly doing itself a service when it refuses to hire older workers. Studies have shown that the people under 20 have the highest absenteeism rate and every age group above 50 workers lose fewer days on the job than in any age group below 50. I ask, why? I submit it is because of his more highly developed sense of responsibility towards his house, his family and his job. Studies of accident rates give a similar picture-the older worker is less accident prone than the younger worker. Here again is an area where industry can save money. A study by the workmen's compensation board of Ontario shows a marked drop in the number of non-disabling accidents after the age of 40 as compared with the age group 20 to 24.
All this, Mr. Speaker, shows that there is no truth in the claim that older workers are poor employment risks because of absenteeism and accident rates. Hiring on the basis of ability, forgetting about age, will give industry the chance to tap this reservoir of high quality labour with its excellent records of punctuality and steadiness.
Now let us discuss the plan from the argument that these people over 40 cannot fit into a company's pension plan. Few of the problems associated with pension plans as they affect the employment of older workers are insurmountable. I quote, Mr. Speaker, from a study of Canadian pension plans:
The restrictive clauses incorporated in some plans would appear to stem more from employment policy than from pension policy.
The increase in cost from hiring of a limited number of older workers is likely to be insignificant in relation to a firm's total pension costs. Any extra cost is likely to be more than offset by the productivity and general stability of older workers, with their

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better records in the costly matter of absenteeism, accidents and labour turnover.
Pension plans are classified into two main groups:
(a)	Unit benefit plan. Under this plan the employer must contribute more for the older worker; the employee contributes a fixed percentage of his earnings, regardless of his age. The employer pays the balance of the cost of providing the worker's pension and this involves a higher payment for those in the upper wage brackets. This would apply equally to contributory plans and non-contributory plans.
(b)	Money purchase plan. Under this plan both the employee and the employer contribute an agreed percentage of the employee's earnings and the cost to the employer is the same whether he hires older or younger workers.
A method used to reduce the higher cost is to make special provisions which allow the older worker to increase his percentage contribution to the unit benefit pension plan while maintaining the employer's contribution at the usual level. This could be made a condition of employment and would be a small price for the employee to pay in order to obtain steady employment. At least, he should be given the chance to make that choice.
The federal government pension study, completed in 1957, recommended the removal of age restrictions from pension plans and the removal of the waiting period before entry into a pension plan or a system whereby the employee could make retroactive payments into the pension fund to cover the waiting period.
Many companies use the fear of bad public relations arising from retiring an employee on an inadequate pension as one of their main arguments against hiring older workers. However, they seem to overlook the fact that it is probably worse public relations to become known as an employer who denies men jobs because they are over 50 and cannot join the company's pension plan.
The method which can be used to overcome this fear of bad public relations is to tell the older worker when he is hired that the few years of service he will have by the age of 65 will give him only X dollars of pension and that he must make other arrangements for retirement.
However, the most effective way of overcoming the problem related to pension plans and the employment of older workers is to develop a system of portable pensions. There is no simple solution to the pension problem as it relates to older workers; the present inflexibility of pension plans is detrimental
[Mr. Macaluso.l
to the effective use of our manpower resources. In this respect, the policy of the present government is in the right direction -to bring about a portable pension scheme which is, I believe, the objective of all members of this house.
Refusing people over 40 an interview or a job because of their age aggravates a social and economic problem as the hon. member for Oxford (Mr. Nesbitt) has said. Is it economically possible to have an improving standard of living if increasing numbers of older persons are rejected or forced prematurely to withdraw from the productive section of society?
Effects on the individual are felt by the whole community. The male older worker is likely to be the head of a family; his children will probably be of secondary school or college age. If he is not continuously employed, his children may have to stop their education prematurely and he and his wife and family may have to cease participation in community affairs. If he is not steadily employed during his middle years, he is more likely to become a welfare case, with a consequent drain on the public purse, by the time he is 65. The decrease of purchasing power is a factor which can add to the spreading of unemployment generally. Therefore, it is in the social and economic interest of every community, quite apart from the humanitarian aspects, to keep its mature workers as steadily employed as possible.
There is also to be considered the effect of unemployment on the individual of advancing years. With each rejection in his search for employment, his morale is lowered, he begins to think of himself as a forgotten man, unwanted by a society to which he may have devoted himself for many years. He meets rebuff after rebuff from employers and he finally believes that they must be right-that he is too old. He loses confidence in his own ability and the result is a loss of desire and initiative.
Much has been said and written about the employment problem of the older worker. There are really two distinct problems, each requiring a different kind of treatment. First, there are those men and women of advanced years who are no longer physically capable of carrying on in their customary occupations. Most of these are 60 years of age or more, but many years of productive capacity remain for them if the proper job can be found. The treatment here is the rehabilitation of the individual worker. Learning by older people need not be limited to those of professional pursuits or scholarly bent. One can learn to

do creative things of many kinds. We should combat like the plague the notion that older people are too old to learn.
In a second category are those workers who are described as "the too old at 40 group"- a group of people who at the peak of their productive capacity experience difficulty in finding employment solely because of chronological age and the policy of many employers to refuse to hire persons in these upper age groups regardless of whether or not they are capable of doing an efficient job. The treatment here lies in changing the attitude of employers and in rehabilitating the employer rather than the worker.
Chronological age is not a sound foundation upon which to build hiring policies, because it gives no indication of a person's ability, skills or knowledge. The economy of this country cannot remain healthy if human resources are not properly utilized, and this means that no one age group can be given special privileges to the detriment of another, whether it is youth or older workers.
Canadian employers would do well to examine more carefully the abilities of older workers. By maintaining arbitrary age limits and hiring, which automatically bar the older worker from an interview, employers are narrowing the chances of obtaining the right person for the job. The qualities sought in a good employee are as prevalent among the over-40 workers as they are among workers in any other age group.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member but the time allotted to him has expired.


Marcel Lessard: Mr. Speaker, I thank the sponsor of the motion who enables us again today to study the problem of unemployment, especially in the case of workers over 40 years of age.
The hon. member for Oxford (Mr. Nesbitt) mentioned elderly persons. In my opinion, one cannot say that a person over 40 is old. Otherwise, considering the house, we certainly pass for old people, since members are 40 and yet, their experience enables them to make an interesting contribution.
We wish to help people 40 years of age and over to readily find a position. Now, the government has recently, through the Minister of Labour (Mr. MacEachen), submitted an interesting measure, providing as it did for a special allowance to those who hire workers who are 45 or over and who have been employed for a certain period during the winter months. This step should encourage contractors and industrialists to prefer hiring a man of 45 or more when he needs work.
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Obviously, a man over 40 may be handicapped because of the fact his pension will be more expensive to his employer, but we must not attach too much importance to that fact considering the huge advantage of his experience. Last year I personally stressed that point of the experience acquired by the worker of 45 or over, because having had some experience in industry, I can re-affirm before this house without any fear of making a mistake that a worker aged 45 or more constitutes a real asset for industry because in addition to being an experienced worker he is responsible and is really devoted to the interests of the firm to which he contributes through his efforts. In my opinion that advantage alone should lead employers to think twice when selecting employees and it should prevent them from considering that a man of over 40 constitutes a liability because his pension would be more expensive, for they will derive in so doing, advantages which will more than make up for that.
Now, all those steps to give assistance to people 40 years old and over by finding jobs for them are only a temporary remedy, a poultice, because in my opinion there is only one true solution, and that is a progressive economy offering employment to all workers anxious to work. It is not by increasing such measures of assistance that we will be able to create a progressive economy.
I am pleased to call attention to the assertion by the hon. member for Hamilton West (Mr. Macaluso), who says that senior people do not work because there is less purchasing power and, as a result, more unemployment. So, he admits that a lack of purchasing power on the part of the people is a direct cause of unemployment in our country. I thank him for this assertion which confirms what we, in this corner of the house, have repeated for years.
It is useless to be oversubtle. Therefore, let us provide the purchasing power in Canada and instead of increasing Canadian production, let us increase the purchasing power for that production.
I think, Mr. Speaker, that here is the core of the problem, and that it is useless to look for a mere poultice. For a good many years we have had governments which offered a great many poultices. I think that the most efficient of those poultices in the past five years has been the winter works program. Yet, it was a mere poultice, and after applying it for five years, conditions have become quite impossible and intolerable. Consequently, Mr. Speaker, poultices are hardly a desirable thing and, to my mind, all suggested legislation, once applied, proved a mere temporary remedy. What we want in

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this house are permanent formulas, enabling us to solve the unemployment problem.
I am convinced, Mr. Speaker, that the day when there will be a job for every worker in Canada the problem of the older people of 40, 45, 60, 65 and even 70, will disappear. Indeed, I remember that, during the war, that problem did not come up, because all those people, even if they had only one arm [DOT]-and some of them even lacked both arms -had some job or other which helped Canadian productivity.
So, Mr. Speaker, let us give a new upsurge to our Canadian society by producing for Canadians what Canadians consume, and we shall, by such action, solve every problem now facing this country. Let us not lose any more precious time in looking elsewhere for a solution.
[Tex t]


Francis Andrew Brewin: Mr. Speaker, the hour makes it imperative that I should make my remarks extremely brief. I am in the happy position of being able to congratulate all of those who have spoken before me, the hon. member for Oxford (Mr. Nesbitt) for having introduced this extremely important subject, the hon. member for Hamilton West (Mr. Macaluso) for having given us a very thoughtful contribution, and the hon. member for Lake St. John (Mr. Lessard) for having pointed out a very important matter, namely, that the problems of older workers cannot be solved in isolation from the general economic problems of the country. As he very well pointed out, until there is opportunity for employment for all employable people, the tragedy of older people who are unable to secure work at the age of 40 and beyond is one that we will see again and again.
We must recognize that, although exhortation of employers is all very well, although certain measures that have been mentioned here are all very well, the basic solution is a change in the whole economic climate, and I would go so far as to say the whole nature of our society. Until we are ready to take these problems seriously and solve them we will go on with these pious debates, which are important to call attention to problems but do not solve anything.
The hour of six approaches, Mr. Speaker. One would have hoped that we could have had a longer discussion of this problem of extreme importance to many of our constituents, but as that hour approaches and I should not like to be the one who talked out this particular measure I will resume my seat,

commending it and hoping we may have a vote on it at this moment to show our approval of the principle of the resolution before us.


Mr. Maurice Hinfret (St. James):: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to join with the hon. members to stress that when unemployment is heavy people over 40 are precisely among those who are hit first-


An hon. Member:: Question.
Another hon. Member: It is six o'clock.


Maurice Rinfret: The first responsibility with regard to this problem rests with the employers. It is a public duty for them not to eliminate automatically a candidate because of his age but rather to accept applications from unemployed people of 40 years of age and over and to consider each of them on their merits.
The manufacturers' association and the chambers of commerce must be asked to cooperate so that a candidate's age will no longer be held against him and he will no longer be told: "You are too young, come back when you have more experience", or else: "You are too old."
Governments must also co-operate to stop that bad habit-


An hon. Member:: It is six o'clock.


Maurice Rinfret: -through the different government services, such as the national employment service-


An hon. Member:: It is time to call it six o'clock.


Maurice Rinfret: -the civil service commission-


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Batten):: Order. It being six o'clock I must advise the house that the hour for consideration of private members' business has expired.


Reid Scott: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, as there is such unanimity of endorsement of this proposal perhaps hon. members would like to sit an extra half an hour so we could discuss it further and then vote on it.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, since there does not appear to be unanimous consent to this interesting suggestion, it occurs to me that since many hon. members look at the very end of Hansard to see what the business is perhaps it should be reiterated without any further discussion. Tomorrow we will start

Business of the House


[Stage Direction]
with interim supply. As soon as that is com- tomorrow we would go back to the vocational pleted we will take the old age security bill, training resolution. For reasons that everyone If that should be completed we will go ahead understands, I cannot forecast Friday now. with the two Northwest Territories bills, and At six o'clock the house adjourned, without if all of these things should be disposed of question put, pursuant to standing order.
[Stage Direction]
Thursday, October 3, 19S3