1963-06-03

Mr. David Orlikow (Winnipeg North) moved: for leave to introduce Bill No. C-68, to amend the Combines Investigation Act (floor penalties, criminal joint tortfeasors, and moieties.)


An hon. Member:: Explain.


David Orlikow: 
[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
In the bill I propose the act will be amended so that for a second offence a jail sentence of one year will be mandatory. The bill also provides that the officers of a company guilty of an infraction of the act, the directors of the company, are held to be responsible for the offence. It also provides for the suing for damages of a company which violates the provisions of antitrust legislation.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.


Hon. Walter L. Gordon (Minister of Finance) moved: that the house go into committee to consider the following resolution, which has been recommended to the house by His Excellency:
That it is expedient to bring in a measure to authorize the Canadian National Railway Company to make capital expenditures and to supply the financial requirements of Trans-Canada Air Lines and other affiliated companies (i) in the year 1962 not exceeding $156,500,000 and (ii) in the year 1963, not exceeding $157,000,000, and to make certain capital expenditures and enter into certain contracts prior to July 1, 1964; to provide for the financial requirements of Trans-Canada Air Lines in an amount not exceeding $31,800,000 either by means of loans from Her Majesty to the national company or by means of issues of securities of the national company, authorized and guaranteed as to interest and principal by Her Majesty, the cash proceeds by either method to be used only for the financial requirements of Trans-Canada



ESTABLISHMENT OF SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON PROCEDURE

[Stage Direction]
On the order: Government notices of motion:
[DOT]tCT aa3 a ect cominittee be appointed to consider Speak®r the procedures and organization of this house, for the purpose of suggesting any changes that would assure the more expeditious dispatch of public business and would strengthen parliament and make it more effective* that the committee have power to send for persons and papers, that it report from time to time its findings and recommendations to the house- and that it consist, in addition to Mr. Speaker, oi M members to be designated at a later date.
Mr. Speaker:: Pursuant to section 2 of stand-mg order 21 this government notice of motion stands transferred to and ordered for consideration under government orders at the next sitting of the house.



QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. Fairwealher: 1.	Is testing carried out of strontium 90 dosage :a milk or milk products from dairies in the area of Sussex, New Brunswick and, if so, what is the latest report of level of strontium 90 found from such milk?
2.	Is it correct that milk consumed in the Sussex New Brunswick area contains one hundred times more strontium 90 than does milk consumed in the Ottawa area and, if so, does this level exceed minimum acceptable limit?

Questions
3.	Are plans being made to increase funds for research into the hazard to health inherent in fall-out?


Mr. Haidasz:: 1. Strontium 90 measurements were made in milk powder samples collected in the Sussex area up to and including December 1962. The level observed in December was 59.8 micromicrocuries strontium 90 per gram of calcium; the 6 month average from July to December was 48.1. Beginning in January of this year the milk powder sampling program was replaced with a fluid milk sampling program. Samples are now collected from Fredericton, New Brunswick and the most recent result, for March for Fredericton, is 22.2 micromicrocuries per gram of calcium; the 3 month average, January to March, was 25.7.
2.	No. The figures for Ottawa comparable to those given in answer 1. above are: for December 22.0; for the 6 month period, July to December 1962 an average of 16.0; for March 1963, 10.7; for the 3 month period, January to March, an average of 12.4. While the values for Sussex and Fredericton are higher than those for Ottawa they are still considered to be within acceptable limits.
3.	Since the inception of the radioactive fall-out study program in 1955, the Department of National Health and Welfare has steadily expanded the program by enlarging the area of coverage and including additional samples and analyses as staff, equipment and need developed.
From an initial small network of milk sampling points, the program has expanded until it now includes measurements of fallout in daily air filter samples and monthly precipitation samples from 24 meteorological observing stations, measurement of strontium 90 in annual soil samples from 23 sites and in annual wheat samples from the nine principal wheat growing areas of Canada, measurement of strontium 89, strontium 90, cesium 137 and iodine 131 in fluid milk samples collected 3 times a week from 16 cities across Canada, and measurement of strontium 90 in human bone samples provided by pathologists from various hospitals in Canada.
In addition special equipment for measuring cesium 137 directly in humans is undergoing initial testing. A new departmental laboratory is under construction in Ottawa and the establishment of the radiation protection division is being increased to meet the demands of this comprehensive program. Estimates for the current year provide for new equipment which will be used in these studies.


OPERATION OF LOCKS IN RIDEAU CANAL SYSTEM
Mr. Fairweather: Will the Minister of Public Works arrange to have the locks at the La Salle causeway in the Rideau canal system opened each half hour instead of on an hourly basis as at present?


Mr. Badanai:: There is no lock in the La Salle causeway. However, there is a lift bridge which is opened on an hourly basis. A review of this operation is now under way.


C.N.R. PENSIONS
Mr. Knowles: 1.	How many retired employees of the Canadian National Railways are in receipt of pensions of less than $25 per month?
2.	How many are in receipt of a pension of $25
per month?	.
3.	How many are in receipt of pensions of (a)
$25.01 to $29.99 per month (b) $30.00 to $39.99 per month (c) $40 to $49.99 per month (d) $50 to $59.99 per month (e) $60 to $69.99 per month (f) $70 to $79.99 per month (g)	$80 to $89.99 per
month (h) $90 to $99.99 per month (i) $100 to $124.99 per month (j) $125 to $149.99 per month (k) $150 to $199.99 per month (1) $200 per month and over?


Mr. Cantin:: The management of Canadian National Railways advise as follows:-
1.	377
2.	2,559
3.	Amount of pension:	Number:$	25.01 to $	29.99	98230.00	to	39.99	1,79540.00	to	49.99	1,43550.00	to	59.99	1,07560.00	to	69.99	99870.00	to	79.99	1,01380.00	to	89.99	1,05590.00	to	99.99	1,068100.00	to	124.99	2,733125.00	to	149.99	2,365150.00	to	199.99	3,180200.00	and	over..	3,198
In a number of cases the amounts of pensions paid by Canadian National Railways do not represent the total pensions payable to employees for railway service. Pensions payable by the C.N.R. to international employees (service in both Canada and the United States) relate to their service in Canada only. Such employees also receive annuities payable under the U.S. railroad retirement act or the social security act for service performed in the United States. For example, in the group receiving pensions of under $25 from the C.N.R., there are over 65 former international employees who also receive U.S. railroad retirement or social security annuities in respect of C.N.R. service rendered in the United States. The balance of this group consists of employees who elected early retirement (before age 65) with reduced basic

($25) pensions, and employees who had very short service and small contributions.


CIVIL SERVICE PENSIONS
Mr. Knowles: 1.	How many retired civil servants are receiving pensions of amounts within each of the following brackets: (a) less than $20 per month (b) $20 to $29.99 per month (c) $30 to $39.99 per month (d) $40 to $49.99 per month (e) $50 to $59.99 per month (f) $60 to $69.99 per month (g) $70 to $79.99 per month (h) $80 to $89.99 per month (i) $90 to $99.99 per month (j) $100 to $149.99 per month (k) $150 to $199.99 per month (1) $200 to $249.99 per month (m) $250 to $299.99 per month (n) $300 per month and over?
2.	How many widows of retired civil servants are receiving pensions of amounts within each of the brackets indicated in the above question?
3.	What is the number of retired federal civil servants and also the number of widows of retired federal civil servants presently residing in each province?


Mr. Benson:: 1 and 2. Number of retired civil servants and widows receiving superannuation allowances of amounts within each of the following brackets:
Retired
civil
per month
(a)	less than $ 20.00
(b)	$ 20.00 to $ 29.99
(c)	$ 30.00 to $ 39.99
(d)	$ 40.00 to $ 49.99
(e)	$ 50.00 to $ 59.99
(f)	$ 60.00 to $ 69.99
(g)	$ 70.00 to $ 79.99
(h)	$ 80.00 to $ 89.99
(i)	$ 90.00 to $ 99.99
(j)	$100.00 to $149.99
(k)	$150.00 to $199.99
(l)	$200.00 to $249.99
(m)	$250.00 to $299.99
(n)	$300.00 or over
servants	Widows
465	1,496
1,205	1,583
1,649	1,521
1,557	1,304
1,469	1,195
1,347	1,045
1,248	976
1,209	643
1,135	503
5,124	1,270
3,511	267
2,251	78
1,112	24
1,381	16
24,663	11,921
3.	Number of retired widows residing in each
Newfoundland
Prince Edward Island
Nova Scotia
New Brunswick
Quebec
Ontario
Manitoba
Saskatchewan
Alberta
British Columbia Territories Outside Canada
civil servants province: Retired civil servants 249 139 1,075 683 4,277 10,850 1,248 794 1,287 3,487 24 550
and
Widows
73
381
2,193
5,303
312
1,679
271
24,663	11,921
questions


COST OF C.B.C. TELEVISION SERVICE
Mr. Mather: What was the approximate per diem, per capita tax cost in Canada for C.B.C. T.V. service during 1961 and 1962?


Mr. Pickersgill:: I am informed by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation that based on operating grants plus depreciation and on population figures supplied by the dominion bureau of statistics the per diem, per capita tax cost of C.B.C. television was less than one cent in each of the two years. It was 82/100 of one cent in 1961-62, and 84/100 of one cent in 1962-63.


INCOME TAX COLLECTED IN BRITISH COLUMBIA
Mr. Mather: 1.	What was the amount of individual income tax collected by the federal government for the year 1961 in the province of British Columbia?
2.	What was the amount of corporation income tax collected by the federal government for the year 1961 in the province of British Columbia?


Mr. Garland:: 1. The amount of individual income (and old age security) tax collected by the federal government in the province of British Columbia was as follows: Fiscal year 1961-62, $209,310,175; fiscal year 1960-61 $197,567,154.
2.	The amount of corporation income (and old age security) tax collected by the federal government in the province of British Columbia was as follows: Fiscal year 1961-62, $113,026,047; fiscal year 1960-61, $117,744,172.
Tax collection figures for both fiscal years 1961-62 and 1960-61 are given in reply since the year 1961 referred to in the question does not correspond to a single fiscal period.


P.F.R.A. EXPENDITURES
Mr. Mather: 
Mr. Beer:: Total expenditures, by provinces, under the Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Act from 1935 to December 1962, are as follows-Manitoba, $18,139,878; Saskatchewan, $134009,082; Alberta, $76,254,439; British Columbia, $3,599,525.


DEDUCTION OF FUNERAL EXPENSES FROM INCOME TAX
Mr. Mather: Has the government given consideration to making funeral expenses deductible from survivors' income tax?


Edgar John Benson: Requests for deductions for income tax purposes are considered during the preparation of the annual budget and decisions are made known when the budget is presented.
28902-5-35^

Questions


U.S.-CANADA EMIGRATION AND IMMIGRATION
Mr. Mather: 1.	How many persons left Canada In 1962 to take up permanent residence in the United States?
2.	How many persons left the United States in 1962 to take up permanent residence in Canada?


Mr. Dupuis:: 1. Total immigrant aliens admitted to the United States, whose country of last permanent residence was Canada, for the period July 1, 1961 to June 30, 1962: 44,272. Source: United States department of justice, immigration and naturalization service.
2. The number of persons recorded in 1962 as immigrants coming from the United States is 11,643. This figure does not represent all those former residents of the United States who took up permanent residence in Canada during the year as an unknown number were Canadian citizens and previous legal residents of Canada who were not recorded on their return.


PSYCHIATRIC TREATMENT OF PENITENTIARY INMATES
Mr. Orlikow: 1.	Of the Inmates in Canadian penitentiaries who received psychiatric treatment in 1962, how many saw the psychiatrist and/or psychologist only once, twice, three times, more than three times?
2.	How long were the interviews in each case?


Mr. Macdonald:: 1. The following numbers
of inmates received psychiatric treatment in 1962:
Only once:	697
Twice:	312
Three times:	180
More than three times:	184
Total:	1,373
The following numbers of	inmates	who	received psychiatric treatment	in	1962	saw	the
psychologist:
Once:	491
Twice:	128
Three times:	83
More than three times:	93
Total:	795
2.	The length of the interview varies according to each case, but the average is from 1 to 14 hours, although some interviews have taken as long as two hours.
N.B. The report from St. Vincent de Paul penitentiary is incomplete because of loss of documents by fire.
[Mr. Benson. 1


PSYCHIATRISTS IN FEDERAL PENITENTIARIES
Mr. Orlikow: 1.	Of the eight psychiatrists for the 25 federal penitentiaries, how many are employed on a full time basis?
2. Of the eight psychiatrists, how many were practicing in psychiatry, as distinct from purely administrative duties, prior to their penitentiary service?
3.	What is the age range of the eight psychiatrists?
4. Of the eight psychiatrists, how many were retired from other positions prior to their assumption of penitentiary duties?


Mr. Chevrier:: 1.	None.
2.	Six were purely in the practice of psychiatry; two had done both.
3.	76-70-60-47-43-38-37-36.
4.	Two.


PSYCHIATRISTS AND PSYCHOLOGISTS IN FEDERAL PENITENTIARIES
Mr. Orlikow: 1.	How many psychiatrists and psychologists were employed by the penitentiaries in 1952, 1957, and 1962?
2.	How many resigned in the last two years in each institution?
3.	How many psychiatrists and psychologists are called for in the penitentiaries establishment, and how many of these positions are actually vacant?
[r. Chevrier:	Psychia- trists	Psychol- ogistsApril 1952:	2	1April 1957:	4	5April 1962:	6	10Kingston:	-	2St. Vincent de Paul:	1	3Dorchester:	-	1British Columbia:	-	1Saskatchewan:	1	-Total:	2	7Establishment:	8	19Vacant positions:	2	9
^COMPANIES BRANCH DIRECTOR, SECRETARY OF STATE DEPARTMENT
QiLestion No. 16-Mr. Fisher:
1.	When did the present director of the companies branch in the Department of the Secretary of State join the federal service?
2.	What was his initial salary?
3.	What were his educational and experience qualifications?
4.	What is his present salary?
5.	When was he made director of the companies branch?
6.	Did this appointment follow a competition; if so, what was the number of the competition, and how many other applicants were considered to the interview stage?
7.	How many competitions has the present director of the companies branch taken part in his years in the service prior to promotion?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, the answers to this question are as follows:
1.	(a) First, on December 15, 1943, with the wartime prices and trade board, where he remained until 1951; and (b) on April 26, 1954 to the present, in the companies branch of the secretary of state department.
2.	(a) $2160 per annum, including bonuses; and (b) when appointed to the secretary of state department he initially received $4620 per annum.
3.	B.A. Laval, 1939; LL.L Laval, 1947; Admitted to the bar, province of Quebec, 1947. Diploma of superior studies of law, cum laude, Ottawa university, 1958; Q.C., 1962. 1940-1943 Canadian army, captain; 1943-1951 wartime prices and trade board-clerk, legal adviser, regional legal adviser; 1951-1954 private law practice; 1954 to present-secretary of state department.
4.	$15,800.
5.	On an acting basis in September 1959, and on a continuing basis on May 17, 1963.
6.	In August 1959 the secretary of state department asked the civil service commission to fill the position of director of the companies branch left vacant by the promotion of Mr. A. Alex. Cattanach to the position of assistant under secretary of state. The commission then proceeded to advertise an interdepartmental promotion competition under number 59-P-ID-121. A total of 11 candidates applied in the competition of whom seven were interviewed by an examining board established by the commission. The examining board came to the conclusion that, of all the candidates, the present director of the companies branch was the best qualified for the advertised position. However, before the competition could be completed, the department informed the commission that it did not wish to fill the position at that time and requested that acting pay be authorized for the person discharging the functions of the position.
7.	Fourteen competitions.
(Translation):


AIRPORT CONSTRUCTION, VAL D'OR AND ROUYN, QUE.
Mr. Caouelfe: Have negotiations been entered into between the government and the towns of Val d'Or and Rouyn for the construction of two airports?


Jean-Charles Cantin: Negotiations were entered into between the government and the town of Val d'Or and the city of Rouyn shortly after world war II, whereby the government would provide financial assistance to the municipalities for the development of airports. These negotiations culminated in agreements dated October 14 and October 4, 1949, with the town of Val d'Or and the city of Rouyn,
Questions
respectively, whereby financial assistance was granted for this purpose.
(Text):


GOLD MINING ASSISTANCE, VILLENEUVE COUNTY, QUE.
Mr. Caouetle: 1.	What is the amount of the financial assistance granted to each of the gold mines in the county of Villeneuve for the last fiscal year?
2.	What profits have been declared by each of these mining companies for the last or the current year?


Mr. Benidickson:: 1. The amount payable for the calendar year 1962 to each gold mine located in the county of Villeneuve which was eligible for assistance under the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act is as
follows:

(1)	Akasaba Gold Mines Ltd.	125,367(2)	Barnat Mines Ltd.	171,368(3)	Bevcon Mines Ltd.	254,979(4)	Canadian Malartic Gold MinesLtd.	310,126(5)	East Malartic Mines Ltd.	827,226(6)	Elder Peel Ltd.	121,398(7)	Eldrich Mines Ltd.	131'578(8)	Lamaque Mining Co. Ltd.	290,469(9)	Malartic Gold Fields Ltd.	114,743(10)	Marban Gold Mines Ltd.	127,627(11)	Norlartic Mines Ltd.	206,643(12)	Sigma Mines (Quebec) Ltd.	465,218
(13) Sullivan Consolidated Mines Ltd. 404,405
2. The profits declared by each of these mining companies are not officially published by the government of Canada. The information might be obtained directly from the annual reports of the companies concerned or from trade publications which report on these matters from time to time.


* ASSISTANCE TO NEW GOLD MINING COMPANIES
Mr. Caouetle: Does the government grant any financial assistance to the new mining companies which produce gold in order to help them in the organizational stage?


William Moore Benidickson: The federal government does not provide direct financial assistance to new gold mining companies in the organizational stage.
Major incentives to new mining ventures are provided through benefits granted under the Income Tax Act, i.e. three year tax exemption, percentage depletion allowance, write-off of exploration and development expenses, and rates of depreciation.
Assistance is available to all mines from the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys in the form of topographical and geological survey maps and reports, and in the development of ore treatment processes.

Questions


NET NATIONAL REVENUE AND GROSS NATIONAL PRODUCT
[Stage Direction]
Question No. 20*-Mr. Caouetle:
1.	What was the net national revenue for the last fiscal year?
2.	What was the gross national product for the same period?
Mr. Pepin:: 1. "Net national revenue" is not a term used by the dominion bureau of statistics. "Net national income at factor cost" is a term used in the national accounts. It amounted to $30,606,000,000 in the calendar year 1962.
2. The gross national product for the calendar year 1962 was $40,401,000,000.


FINANCIAL CONTRIBUTIONS TO OTHER COUNTRIES
Mr. Caouetle: What was the financial contribution of Canada, during the past fiscal year, to assist the Congo, India, Pakistan, France, Great Britain?


Mr. Martin (Essex East):: 1. There has been no direct financial assistance from Canada to the Congo during the past fiscal year. However, the Congo is eligible for assistance from a number of UN programs, including the UN ad hoc fund for the Congo created under resolution 1474 (ES)IV of September 20, 1960, which has received financial contributions from Canada.
2.	Allocation to India under the Colombo plan for the provision of goods and services, $19.5 million. Pledge in the form of long term credits to Indian consortium convened by the international bank for reconstruction and development, $25 million for the first two years (1961-63) of the current Indian five year plan,
i.e. at the rate of $12.5 million for each of the past two years.
3.	Allocation to Pakistan under the Colombo plan for the provision of goods and services, $12.1 million. Pledge in the form of long term credits to Pakistani consortium convened by the international bank for reconstruction and development, $15 million for the second and third years of the current five year plan, i.e. at the rate of $7.5 million for each of the past two years.
4.	None.
5.	None.


SUBSIDIZATION OF NEW GOLD PRODUCTION
[Stage Direction]
Question No. 23
Mr. Caouette:: Does the government subsidize the production of new gold in Canada?


William Moore Benidickson: The federal government grants assistance under the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act on gold produced by a new mine entering production for the first time on the same terms as established gold mines.

No assistance is paid on gold produced as a by-product from base metal mines or from gold mines not eligible for assistance under the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act because of low costs of production.


FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE TO QUEBEC CLASSICAL COLLEGES
Mr. Caouetle: Has the government given financial assistance to any classical colleges in the province of Quebec and, if so, what colleges have been assisted, and what was the amount granted in each case?


Jean-Luc Pepin: The below listed answer applies in so far as Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation is concerned.
Loans under part VIA of the National Housing Act, 1954, to assist in the construction of university housing projects have been approved to the following classical colleges in the province of Quebec:
College	Loan Amount
L'Academie de Quebec	$810,000
Seminaire Saint-Pie X	221,706
Seminaire de Nicolet	483,300
College de Matane	630,900
College de Victoriaville	810,565
College de Rouyn	550,000
College Bourget	148,500
Seminaire Marie Reine du
Clerge	385,000
College Notre-Dame	622,212
College Marguerite
D'Youville	482,400
Federal university grants for current operating purposes have been paid during the past five years through the Canadian universities foundation. The foundation has determined eligibility.
Eligible classical college enrolment (as well as that of other affiliated institutions) was counted in the 1958-59 and 1959-60 total eligible enrolment of the parent universities (Laval, Montreal and Sherbrooke). Payments were eventually made for total eligible enrolment at these three universities.
Two classical colleges, the College Marie-de-France (considered as independent) and the College de Rouyn (at the time affiliated with the University of Ottawa), were counted as separate institutions and payments were made to them for 1958-59 and 1959-60. Separate payments were also made to Loyola College and College Jean-de-Brebeuf for 195960 only.
Federal grants to certain classical colleges in the province of Quebec and to parent universities having eligible classical college enrolment in the province of Quebec are as follows: (1) (5).

Questions
Research grants
College Marie-	Federal University grants for current operating purposes through the Canadian Universities Foundation	Capital grants from the Canada Council university capital grants fund	from the federal government acknowledged by Canadian universitiesde-France	$	$	$1958-59	25,236	Total	-1959-60	23,788	paid up	-1960-61	(3)	to end of	_1961-62	(3)	March 31, 1963,	N.A.1962-63	(3)	44,600	N.A.College de Rouyn	1958-59	31,233	Total	-1959-60	30,318	paid up	-1960-61	(3)	to end of	-1961-62	(3)	March 31, 1963,	N.A.1962-63	(3)	58,340	N.A.Loyola College	1958-59	_	-	6,6761959-60	182,373	_	3,6471960-61	(3)	_	3,3441961-62	(3)	_	N.A.1962-63	(3)	_	N.A.College Jean-de-Brebeuf	1958-59	-	Total	__1959-60	50,840	paid up	_1960-61	(3)	to end of	-1961-62	(3)	March 31, 1963,	N.A.1962-63	(3)	97.832	N.A.Universite Laval (total payments, including classical colleges)	1958-59	2,062,874	Total	476,0381959-60	2,041,314	paid up	626,6031960-61	(3)	to end of	486,9151961-62	(3)	March 31, 1963,	N.A.1962-63	(3)	725.000	N.A.Universite de Montreal (total payments including classical colleges)	1958-59	2,777,733	Total	770,5771959-60*	2,732,791	paid up	857,3251960-61	(3)	to end of	971,4861961-62	(3)	March 31, 1963,	N.A.1962-63	(3)	1,954,331	N.A.Universite de Sherbrooke (total payments including classical colleges)	1958-59	345,561	Total	_1959-60	376,173	paid up	_1960-61	(3)	to end of	_1961-62	(3)	March 31, 1963,	N.A.1962-63	(3)	723,867	N.A.
Questions
(1)	Most of the Quebec institutions did not accept the 1958-59 and 1959-60 federal grants at the time. The money was held in trust by the Canadian universities foundation and later paid to the institutions concerned.
(2)	Operating grants were at the rate of $1.50 per capita from 1958-59 to 1961-62 and were increased to $2.00 per capita for 1962-63.
(3)	Beginning with the year 1960-61, an agreement was reached between the federal and the Quebec governments whereby the latter gave assistance to Quebec universities at a per capita rate at least equivalent to that for the other provinces and in return received an abatement of approximately 1 per cent of corporation income tax.
(4)	Excludes amounts paid to Loyola College and College Jean-de-Brebeuf.
(5)	Loans under part VIA of the National Housing Act, 1954, to assist in the construction of university housing projects, under Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation are supplied separately.


NUMBERS OF CIVIL SERVICE CLERKS
Mr. Caoueite: What is the total number of federal civil servants classified as (a) clerk grade I or equivalent (b) clerk grade II or equivalent (c) clerk grade III or equivalent?
(b)	Province of Quebec (Feb. 28/63)	
(c)	Canada (including abroad) (Feb. 28/63) ..
(Translation) :


SENNETERRE, QUE.  RADAR STATION
Mr. Caouelle: 1.	Who is the owner of the mining lots on which the Senneterre radar station is located?
2.	Have these lots been purchased by the government?
3.	What amount has been given by the government to the owner of these lots if they have not been expropriated, and by what right has the government built a radar station on them?
4.	Does the government intend to pay the cost of expropriation of these lots?


Mr. Hellyer:: 1. The lots on which the Senneterre radar station is located are owned by the crown in the right of the province of Quebec.
2.	No.
3.	The federal government is occupying these lots under an agreement with the government of the province of Quebec and no amount was implied in that agreement.


Yvon Dupuis: As of September 1962, the total number of federal civil servants classified as
Clerk grade 1, or in a class with an equivalent maximum salary rate-8043.
Clerk grade 2, or in a class with an equivalent maximum salary rate-7310.
Clerk grade 3, or in a class with an equivalent maximum salary rate-8881.


FEDERAL EMPLOYEES
Mr. Caouetie: What is the total number of federal employees (a) in the county of Villeneuve (b) in the province of Quebec (c) in Canada?


Yvon Dupuis: (a) Villeneuve is an electoral district consisting of parts of the Quebec counties of Abitibi and Temiscamingue. No statistics are available showing employment by electoral districts or counties. However, the economic region of western Quebec which includes the counties of Abitibi and Temiscamingue and the districts of Abitibi and Mistassini had 294 civil servants at September 30, 1962. At the same date there were a total of 22,279 persons under the Civil Service Act in Quebec and 137,298 in Canada (and abroad).
Agency and Departments proprietary and	corporations
departmental and other corporations agencies	Total
32,359	32,556	64,915198,155	129,635	327,7904.	Does not apply following answer to question 3 above.


CANADIAN GOLD RESERVE
Mr. Caoueite: What is the present gold reserve for Canadian currency?


Edgar John Benson: At the present time no gold reserves are held against Bank of Canada notes in circulation. Until 1940 the central bank was required under Section 23(1) of the Bank of Canada Act to maintain a gold reserve equal to at least 25 per cent of its outstanding note and deposit liabilities. As from May 1, 1940, this provision has been suspended by parliament. The gold holdings of the exchange fund are published each month in the Bank of Canada statistical summary. At April 30, 1963, exchange fund holdings of gold were U.S. $738.7 million.

(Text):


NATIONAL DEBT
[Stage Direction]
Questions
2.	What was the total amount contributed to that fund (a) for the last fiscal year (b) for the last five years?
Mr. Caouelie: 1.	What is at present the total national debt held (a) outside of Canada (b) in Canada?
2.	What is the average rate of interest paid on that debt?


Jean-Luc Pepin: 1. Total unmatured bonded debt of the government of Canada outstanding as at March 31, 1961, $14,132,915,000.
Amount of above estimated to be held by non-residents, $611 million.
2.	Average rate of interest on above outstanding debt 3.98 per cent per annum.


NUMBER OF UNEMPLOYED
Mr. Caouelie: What is the total number of unemployed (a) in the county of Villeneuve (b) in the province of Quebec and (c) in Canada?


Mr. Byrne:: (a) Not available, (b) 182,000 as of April 20, 1963. (c) 462,000 for same period.


FEDERAL CONTRIBUTIONS TO QUEBEC SOCIAL ALLOWANCES FUND
Mr. Caouelie: 1.	Does the government contribute to the social allowances fund of the province of Quebec and, if so, what is the amount of its annual contribution?


Stanley Haidasz: 1. There are no contributions by the federal government to a social allowances fund, as such. However the cost of social assistance payments made under the Quebec public charities act are shared by the federal government under the Unemployment Assistance Act. Federal sharing of allowances for the aged, the blind and the permanently and totally disabled is provided under the Old Age Assistance Act, the Blind Persons Act and the Disabled Persons Act.
2. (a) Federal payments to Quebec during 1962-63 were $33,579,397 under the Unemployment Assistance Act, $13,793,745 under the Old Age Assistance Act, $1,662,937 undei the Blind Persons Act, and $8,577,890 under the Disabled Persons Act.
(b) The agreement with Quebec under the Unemployment Assistance Act was signed in July 1959. Federal contributions in each fiscal year since that date are shown in the first column of the table below. Federal contributions under the other federal-provincial programs, from 1958-59 to 1962-63 inclusive, are shown in the second, third and fourth columns of the table.
Unemployment
Assistance
Old Age Assistance
Blind	Disabled
Persons	Persons
Allowances Allowances
Total
1958- 59	$
1959-	60	7,790,1960-	61	14,164,1961-	62	38,222,1962-	63	33,579,$10,592,641530	10,688,586527	10,977,319198	10,896,302397	13,793,745


$1,501,106 1,493.120 1,456,779 1,412,002 1,662,937 $8,362,889 8,307,354 7,995,958 7,460,933 8,577,890 $20,456,636 28,279,590 34,594,583 57,991,435 57,613,969 COST OF SERVICING NATIONAL DEBT
Mr. Caouelie: What was the cost of servicing Canada's national debt during the last fiscal year?


Jean-Luc Pepin: The latest fiscal year for which actual expenditures are available is 1961-62. According to the public accounts of Canada, "interest and other public debt charges" amounted to $839 million for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1962.
(Translation):



CANADIAN MONEY SUPPLY


Mr. Caouelie: Have submissions been received in connection with the construction of airports in the towns of Val d'Or and Rouyn and, if so, what was their nature, and what organizations presented them?


Jean-Charles Cantin: There is no recent record of any submissions.
(Text):


FAMILY ALLOWANCES
Mr. Caouelie: 1.	How many Canadian children receive family allowances?
2.	Does the government propose to increase family allowance rates and to extend their application to students?


Stanley Haidasz: 1. As of March 1963 family allowances were paid on behalf of 6,659,880 Canadian children.

Questions
2. As this is a matter of government policy any proposed legislation would be announced by the government at the appropriate time.
(Translation):


ADVANCES BY BANK OF CANADA TO CHARTERED BANKS
Mr. Caouelle: 1.	On what occasions and on what dates did the Bank of Canada advance credit to any chartered banks?
2.	What chartered banks have obtained aid from the Bank of Canada, and how much did they borrow from the said Bank of Canada?


Edgar John Benson: 1. The total amount of advances (if any) by the Bank of Canada to chartered and savings banks is shown for each Wednesday and each month-end in the Bank's weekly and month-end published returns. Two returns in the last six months have shown such advances to be outstanding, $500,000 on December 19, 1962, and $650,000 on January 16, 1963.
2. Advances to individual banks are not a matter of public record.
(Text) :


* TELEVISION STATIONS ESTABLISHED SINCE JANUARY, 1960
Mr. Fisher: 1.	How many television stations or satellite television stations have been established or are in the process of establishment at the present time by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation since January 1, 1960?
2.	What was the per capita cost in the figures used by the C.B.C. in their projection on each one of these stations; (the per capita figure in this sense relates to the number of people whom the C.B.C. estimates or estimated would fall within the A and B contours of such stations or such satellites)?
3.	In the extension of television service to parts of the country not presently covered, what is the present position of the per capita cost figure; that is, what stations most recently established or being established were at what per capita cost figure?


Yvon Dupuis: I am informed by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation as follows:
In the corporation's extension of coverage program, the priority given to the planning of the various projects is based on the estimated cost per capita.
1.	Thirty one.
2.	The costs per capita used in planning the following projects were:
Mont Tremblant/Mont Laurier, P.Q. 1.00
Castlegar, B.C.	1.00
Trail/Nelson, B.C.	1.21
Port Rexton, Nfld.	1.35
Courteney, B.C.	1.54
Sturgeon Falls/Sudbury	1.57
St. Paul/Cold Lake, Alberta	2.40
Sheet Harbour, N.S.	2.65
Timmins/Kapuskasing, Ontario	3.14
Dryden/Sioux Lookout, Ontario	3.49

Fort Frances, Ontario	3.49
Atikokan, Ontario	3.49
Red Lake, Ontario	3.49
Timiskaming, P.Q.	4.03
Grand Prairie/Peace River, Alberta 4.14 Flin Flon/The Pas, Manitoba	4.83
Cranbrook, B.C.	4.93
Cheticamp, N.S./Magdalen Islands,
P.Q.	6.75
3. The stations most recently established, or being established and the costs per capita used in planning, are as follows:
Castlegar, B.C.	1.00
Sheet Harbour, N.S.	2.65
Timmins/Kapuskasing, Ontario	3.14
Dryden/Sioux Lookout, Ontario	3.49
Fort Frances, Ontario	3.49
Timiskaming, P.Q.	4.03


CANADIAN ROLE IN NATO
Mr. Fisher: 1.	Prior to its selecting the Honest John artillery, did the government ever volunteer to NATO headquarters to make its military contribution in the defence of Europe with conventional, as distinct from nuclear weapons?
2.	Did the federal government propose at any time to its NATO allies that Canada's role be nonnuclear?
3.	Have any of the NATO allies accepted an exclusively non-nuclear role under NATO command?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: 1. No.
2.	No.
3.	All NATO countries subscribe to the nuclear strategy of the alliance. The precise role undertaken by member nations of the alliance is a matter for each individual country to decide.


WELLAND CANAL
[Stage Direction]
Question No. 42
Mr. Fisher:: 1.	What amount of money has been spent toward the twinning of the single locks on the Welland ship canal?
2.	Is any on site work proceeding at the present time toward the proposed twinning and, if so, what is the nature of the work?


Jean-Charles Cantin: The St. Lawrence seaway authority advises as follows:
1.	$967,766.00, to March 31, 1963, including payments for the expropriation of lands.
2.	Yes; subsurface investigations and surveys.


RADIOACTIVE FALL-OUT
Mr. Fisher: 1.	What is the latest reading of radioactive fallout in each of the provinces of Canada?
2.	Is milk the only index used by the Department of National Health and Welfare for measuring radioactive fall-out?


Stanley Haidasz: 1. See table attached.
2. No. Measurements of radioactive fall-out are also made in air, precipitation, soil, wheat and human tissues.

Questions


MOST RECENT FALLOUT FIGURES AS REPORTED FOR VARIOUS LOCATIONS IN THE PROVINCES
[Stage Direction]
Aik Data	Precipitation Data	Milk Data	Location	m icro m icroc uries per cubic meter March/63	millicuries per sq. kilometer Feb./63	Strontium-89 Strontium-90 micromicrocuries per liter Feb./63 Feb./63	Cesium-137 Feb./63	Iodine-131 Mar./63Calgary	9.0	10.4	12	20.8	77	9Coral Harbour	8.1	63.9	-	-	-	-Edmonton	6.4	72.0	10	18.2	63	-Ft. Churchill	7.0	42.1	-	-	-	-Ft. William	10.4	24.2	6	25.2	76	-F redericton	12.6	37.1	0	31.1	152	-Goose Bay	8.4	16.8	-	-	-	-Inuvik	10.7	27.3	-	-	-	-Montreal	11.6	144.4	10	16.5	54	-Moosonee	12.2	21.5	-	-	-	-Ottawa	11.8	93.2	0	18.7	59	4Quebec City	13.2	92.5	0	23.9	97	2Regina	8.4	30.5	3	16.1	26	-Resolute	7.9	199.0	-	-	-	-Saskatoon	8.2	38.4	9	16.2	20	15Sault Ste. Marie	10.8	68.0	0	14.0	43	3Shearwater (Halifax)	12.2	*	5	27.0	59	3Torbay (St. John's).. .	8.1	88.5	6	20.9	70	-Toronto	9.9	59.1	2	7.3	57	-Vancouver	6.5	331.0	2	19.9	86	1Whitehorse	9.4	24.5	-	-	-	-Windsor	10.5	65.7	0	12.3	32	0Winnipeg	8.6	51.2	9	17.1	43	0Yellowknife	9.9	35.4	-	-	-	-Average	9.6	71.2 (* no sample)	5	19.1	63	4
22 May 1963

Mr. Fisher: 1. How many National Housing Act loans have been processed through the Fort William office of Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation in 1962 and 1963?
2.	What were their total value?
3.	How many loans were processed in 1961, 1960, 1959?
4.	What lawyers handled these loans for Central Mortgage and Housing in 1961, 1962 and 1963?


Mr. Carter:: 1. and 2.
N.H.A. Loans Approved*-C.M.H.C. Fort William office
Approved Lenders	C.M.H.C.	TotalYear	Loans	Amount	Loans	Amount	Loans	Amount1962	159	$2,099,738	105	$1,250,515	264	$3,350,2531963 (Jan.-Mar.)	44	611,848	9	105,563	53	717,411Total	203	$2,711,586	114	$1,356,078	317	$4,067,664
3.
N.H.A. Loans Approved*-C.M.H.C. Fort William office
Approved Lenders	C.M.H.C.	Total	4. The lawyers listed below were engaged for work relating to title search and prepara-Year	No. of Loans	No. of Loans	No. of Loans	tion of mortgages covering direct loans made1959	164	209	373	by Central Mortgage and Housing Corpora-1960	142	59	201	tion under the National Housing Act.1961	243	115	358	The corporation has no record of lawyers*Data do not take account of loans cancelled engaged relating to N.H.A. loans made by after approval.	approved lenders.
28902-5-364

Questions
July-Dec.	Jan.-Mar.
1959*	1960	1961	1962	1963Name of lawyer	No. of	No. of	No. of	No. of	No. ofLoans	Loans	Loans	Loans	LoansMurray W. Babe, Fort William	1	-	5	7	-Harold G. Blanchard, Port Arthur	3	7	7	6	-Benedict C. Devlin, Fort William	33	8	21	15	4A. A. Kajander, Port Arthur	42	8	18	14	-J. F. W. Ross, Port Arthur	1	3	21	11	-R. L. Seaman, Port Arthur	38	6	17	12	1J. C. Smith, Fort Frances	3	-	1	-	-Weiler, Weiler & Maloney, Fort William	47	21	18	37	4Note: N.H.A. loans made to veterans pursuant to part II V.L.A.-legal services arranged by Department of Veterans Affairs.	5	6	7	3	Total	173	59	115	105	9
information regarding lawyers engaged for work relating to direct loans by C.M.H.C. for the period January to June 1959 is not readily available. The corporation commenced statistical recording of this information in July 1959.



WELLAND CANAL


Mr. Fisher: Is there any change In the federal government's policy in regard to the twinning of the locks of the Welland canal and expropriation of land necessary for this twinning?


Jean-Charles Cantin: This matter is under intensive study, but important issues are involved which may take some time to resolve.



PERSONAL HISTORY FORM

Mr. Knowles: 1.	Has the review of the personal history form indicated in the answer to question No. 206 (Hansard, October 15, 1962, page 520) been completed?
2.	Has a new form been prepared: if so, has use of the old form been discontinued and, if not, by what authority is it being used?


Mr. Pearson:: 1. No.
2. A draft of a new form has been under consideration but has not yet been finally approved for use in place of the old form.



AGRICULTURAL LOANS, CHAPLEAU COUNTY, QUE.

Mr. Laprise: 1.	How many applications for agricultural loans were received from Chapleau county during the years 1961 and 1962, and of these, how many were approved?
2.	What were the amounts of each of the loans approved for this county during these years?


Bruce Silas Beer: The farm credit corporation does not maintain statistical records on a constituency basis. However, in the municipal counties of Abitibi East and Abitibi West, which approximately coincide with the constituency of Chapleau, detail pertaining to farm loans during the years 1961 and 1962 is as follows:

1.	1 application received, which was not approved.
2.	Nil.



LAY-OFFS OF T.C.A. PILOTS

Mr. Fisher: 1.	How many pilots have been furloughed by Trans-Canada Air Lines since January 1, 1962?
2.	In what numbers and at what dates did this furloughing take place?
3.	Has Trans-Canada Air Lines any records or general indications as to the subsequent employment achieved by any of these pilots?
4.	What indication, if any, did T.C.A. give to any pilots furloughed that there might be future employment with T.C.A.?
5.	What rights to they have in terms of future employment opportunities as pilots or in any other branch of the service?
6.	At the present time, what likelihood is there that in 1963 or 1964 there will be further lay-offs of pilots on T.C.A.?


Jean-Charles Cantin: The management of Trans-Canada Air Lines advise as follows:
1.	A total of 26 pilots have been furloughed since January 1, 1962.
2.	16 were furloughed on April 1, 1962 and 10 on May 1, 1963.
3.	Of the 26 pilots concerned: eight are presently employed in T.C.A. in other capacities; nine are in the employ of other air lines; one has resigned; five have notified the company that they are employed, but the names of the employers are unknown; three have not kept in touch with the company and their whereabouts are unknown.
4.	Furloughed pilots have recall rights under the terms of the agreement with CALPA. It was originally indicated to the April 1962 group that they might be recalled in 1963; however, they were subsequently notified that this recall would not take place

and that it was not possible at this stage to establish a definite date. In so far as the May 1963 group is concerned, no definite date for recall was indicated, although it is anticipated that this group will be required during 1964.
5.	As indicated in the reply to the previous question, all furloughed pilots have recall rights under agreement, in order of seniority. These rights are limited to pilot positions, but considerable effort has been made to place these individuals in ground jobs as suitable vacancies occur.
6.	No further lay-offs are expected in 1963 or 1964 based on presently known plans.



COST OF OTTAWA NATO CONFERENCE

Mr. Mather: What is the financial cost to Canada of the present NATO conference in Ottawa?


Paul Joseph James Martin: The estimated financial cost to Canada as the host nation of the present NATO ministerial meeting in Ottawa and for which funds have been requested in the supplementary estimates of the Department of External Affairs are in the amounts of
(a) Fiscal year 1962/63	$15,000
(b) Fiscal year 1963/64	380,000
Total estimated cost	$395,000
Included in this estimate are substantial amounts for such items as furniture, furnishings and special broadcasting and communications equipment which are to be taken into use by other government departments and agencies after they have served their conference use. The final cost to the Canadian government will be less than the estimate given above by the amount of the credits accumulated from the items turned over to departmental use. It is not possible to provide an exact figure of the credits involved at this time.



TRAINING OF FRENCH SPEAKING OFFICERS

Mr. Fisher: 1.	Has the Department of National Defence a military college with the specific purpose of encouraging Canadians whose native language is French to train and to become officers in the Canadian forces?
2.	If so, where is the college, how long has it been established, and what has been its student body, by year, in make-up as between those whose native language is French and those whose native language is English?
3.	How many students in each category have gone on to complete their military education at Royal military college, Kingston, in the years since the French language school was established?
4.	For each year, what has been the record of performance of these French language students at
Questions
R.M.C.? That is, how many have dropped out without completing a year or the course, how many have failed the course, how many have been successful, how many are now in the services with permanent commissions?
5.	What percentage of those who have entered the French language military college are now in the services with officers' commissions?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: 1. Yes, the bilingual services college-College Militaire Royal de Saint-Jean.
2. The college was opened in September 1952 at St. Jean, Quebec, and the student body has been as follows:-
Academic Year	French	English1952-53	81	481953-54	120	941954-55	153	1271955-56	197	1681956-57	181	1871957-58	178	1791958-59	193	1701959-60	200	1671960-61	202	1871961-62	222	1921962-63	229	1643.	Year	French	English1955	14	161956	24	231957	26	221958	27	341959	27	331960	27	331961	24	341962	38	454.	Year of Entry	Number Dropped	toRMC	Out	1955	1	1956	1	1957	1	1958	2	1959	_	1960	4	Number	Number	Number in	Failed Graduated	Services	6	7	2	3	20	12	9	16	11	3	22	22	5	22	22	11	12	12	
5. Because the course for cadets entering College Militaire Royal de Saint-Jean is of five years duration, only those who entered College Militaire Royal de Saint-Jean in 1957 or earlier could have graduated and now be holding a permanent commission in one of the services. The percentage of those who have entered College Militaire Royal de Saint-Jean

Questions
in 1957 or earlier, who are now in the services with permanent commissions, is 23.2 per cent.



* TELEVISION STATION, ST. JOHN'S, NFLD.

Mr. Fisher: 1.	Did the B.B.G. approve a C.B.C. application for a new T.V. station at St. John's and, if so, when?
2.	In any such approval, did the B.B.G. set out a number of conditions in its approval, including: "That the C.B.C. will co-operate with CJON-TV in ensuring the extension of alternative television service in Newfoundland generally." and, if so, in detail, what does this condition mean, as the
B.	B.G. sees it?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, the answers are as follows:
1.	Following its public hearing in March 1963, the board recommended for approval an application by the C.B.C. to establish a new T.V. station at St. John's, Newfoundland.
2.	The board did set out in its recommendation a number of conditions including "That the C.B.C. will co-operate with CJON-TV in ensuring the extension of alternative television service in Newfoundland generally."
After this recommendation was forwarded to the Department of Transport the department asked the board the extent to which it expects participation by the C.B.C. in terms of finances, technical advice, the use of C.B.C. equipment, etc. The board now has under consideration the preparation of an answer to be given to this enquiry.



OPERATING STATISTICS FOR CLASS I RAILWAYS

Mr. Fisher: Is the d.b.s. aware that the president of the
C.	N.R. has indicated that the d.b.s. information relating to operating statistics for class I railways, insofar as they relate to job classifications, are not usable for comparison between the C.P.R. and the C.N.R. and, if so, what steps in detail, has d.b.s. undertaken to make these statistics usable in a comparable way, particularly with regard to executives, foremen, and chiefs of various kinds?


Jean-Luc Pepin: For the past year, a special working committee of the railway association of Canada consisting of representatives of the Canadian National Railways, Canadian Pacific Railway Company, the board of transport commissioners and the dominion bureau of statistics under the chairmanship of the chief transportation section, dominion bureau of statistics, has been engaged in a major revision of the classification of railway employees and their compensation.
This revision which will facilitate the collection of more comparable data is nearing completion and it is expected that the classification will be printed this fall and put into effect January, 1964.
[Mr. Hellyer.l



MEETING BETWEEN TRUCKING REPRESENTATIVES AND GOVERNMENT

Mr. Fisher: 1.	When did national representatives of the trucking industry last have a formal meeting with the government, and more particularly with members of the cabinet including the minister of transport?
2.	Who represented the trucking industry at this meeting?
3.	Has the new ministry received any requests for such a meeting and, if so, from whom, for what purposes, and to what result?


Jean-Charles Cantin: 1. and 2. Information as to interviews with the previous government or any of its ministers is not of official record in the department.
3. Yes. A letter was received by the Minister of Transport from Mr. John Magee, executive secretary of Canadian Trucking Associations Inc., requesting an interview with a committee of officials of that organization to discuss matters relating to the trucking industry. The meeting has been arranged for June 10.



FORT WILLIAM, ONT. ARMOURY

Mr. Fisher: 1.	What are the present plans of the government with regard to an armoury in Fort William, Ontario?
2.	Are they any different from the plans of the previous government?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: 1. There are no current plans for the construction of an armoury at Fort William, Ontario.
2. The government does not have information on the plans of the previous government on this subject.



FORT WILLIAM, ONT. FEDERAL BUILDING

Mr. Fisher: 1.	What are the present plans of the government with regard to building a new federal building and/or a new post office in Fort William, Ont.?
2.	Are they any different from the plans of the previous government?


Hubert Badanai: 1. Tenders for a new federal building at Fort William will be called in the near future and it is planned that construction will commence this year.
2. No.



FORT WILLIAM, ONT. EXPERIMENTAL STATION

Mr. Fisher: 1.	What are the present plans of the government with regard to an agricultural experimental station in Fort William riding?
2.	Are they any different to the plans of the previous government?


Bruce Silas Beer: 1. A 70 acre tract of land, located 12 miles southwest of Fort William on highway 130, was purchased in 1962 for the establishment of an experimental farm. This farm

will serve the' Thunder bay-Rainy river-Kenora areas and work will be concerned with cereal and forage crops and potatoes. It is proposed to construct a service type building for forage crop work as soon as possible and, later on, machinery storage, headerhouse and greenhouse facilities of a modest nature. In addition to the superintendent, approximately five subprofessional positions will be provided as circumstances permit.
2.	The plans outlined above were decided upon at the time the experimental farm was established. There has been no major change since that time.



FORT WILLIAM, ONT. AIRPORT EXTENSION

Mr. Fisher: 1.	What are the present plans of the government with regard to extensions to the airport at Fort William?
2.	Are they any different to the plans of the previous government?


Jean-Charles Cantin: 1. Expansion of the air terminal building and the rebuilding of runway 07-25 and the associated taxiways.
2. The present government is not in a position to answer as to the plans of the previous government.



LABOUR FORCE SAMPLING SURVEYS, PORT ARTHUR AND FORT WILLIAM

Mr. Fisher: 1.	Who are the residents of Fort William and Port Arthur who carry out the sampling for the labour force surveys?
2.	What changes in personnel have there been in these posts in the past three years?


Jean-Luc Pepin: 1. Residents of Fort William and Port Arthur engaged in carrying out the sampling for the labour force surveys:
Mrs. Stella Gresch, 564 Piper avenue, Fort William, Ontario; Mrs. A. Henderson, 189 Summit avenue, Port Arthur, Ontario; Mrs. Ruth McCall, 219 Balmoral street, Fort William, Ontario; Mrs. Lorraine McWilliam, Jumbo Garden, P.O., Port Arthur, Ontario.
2. The following changes in personnel in the above mentioned posts have taken place within the past three years:
Mrs. Eunice Sutherland, 608 Hyde Park avenue, Fort William, Ontario, resigned in July, 1960 and was replaced by Mrs. Stella Gresch, 564 Piper avenue, Fort William, Ontario.
Mrs. Ruth McCall, 219 Balmoral street, Fort William, Ontario, was appointed in February, 1962 to fill a new assignment.
Mrs. Verna Maxwell, 65 Marlborough road, Port Arthur, Ontario, resigned in August, 1962 and was replaced by Mrs. Lorraine McWilliam, Jumbo Garden P.O., Port Arthur, Ontario.
3. 1963	555
Questions



SPONSORING OF IMMIGRANTS

Mr. Pritlie: 1.	Under what circumstances is an intending immigrant required to obtain a sponsor prior to admission to Canada?
2.	Who may sponsor an immigrant within this
category?
3.	How many such sponsored immigrants over the age of fifty were admitted to Canada in each of the years 1956-1961?
4.	What is the government's policy with regard to the approval of applications of this nature?
5.	Is approval related to the sponsor's capacity to support the intended immigrant and, if so, what guarantees are required that the sponsor has bona fide intentions?
6.	In situations where there is no expectation that the immigrant will ever be self-supporting, is the sponsorship intended to be of indefinite duration?
7.	How many sponsored immigrants are in receipt of old age security benefits, disabled persons' allowances and blind persons' allowances at this time; how many sponsored immigrants will be eligible for such allowances by the year 1970; and what is the estimated cost of the allowances to such persons at present and projected to 1970?
8.	In situations where the sponsor subsequently reneges on his obligation to provide maintenance, what steps are taken by the department and what machinery is available to them to enforce the terms of the original contract?


Mr. Munro:: 1. A person who is unable to comply with the requirements for admission as an unsponsored immigrant may be sponsored if he comes within the categories of sponsorable immigrants described in section 31 of the immigration regulations, which reads:
Landing in Canada is limited to persons who comply with all the requirements respecting landing in Canada set out in the act and these regulations and who come within one of the following classes;
(a)	A person who, by reason of his education, training, skills or other special qualifications, is likely to be able to establish himself successfully in Canada and who
(i)	has sufficient means of support to maintain himself in Canada until he has so established himself,
(ii)	has come to Canada, under arrangements made or approved by the director, for placement in employment,
(iii)	has come to Canada, under arrangements made or approved by the director, for establishment in a business, trade or profession, or in agriculture, or
(iv)	is the son, son-in-law, daughter or fiance of a Canadian citizen who
(A)	resides in Canada, and
(B)	has applied for and is willing and able to provide care and maintenance for the person, until the person has established himself successfully in Canada;
(b)	a person who is the husband, wife or the unmarried son or daughter under twenty one years of age of an individual who
(i)	complies with the requirements of paragraph (a),
(ii)	is accompanying the person to Canada, and
(iii)	is willing and able to provide care and maintenance for the person until such person has established himself successfully in Canada; or

Questions
(c)	a person who is the parent, grandparent, husband, wife or fiancee, or the unmarried son or daughter under twenty one years of age, of a Canadian citizen or of an individual legally admitted to Canada for permanent residence who
(i)	is residing in Canada, and
(ii)	has applied for and is willing and able to provide care and maintenance for the person until such person has established himself successfully in Canada.
(d)	a person who is a citizen of any country of Europe, including Turkey; or of any country of North, Central or South America or islands adjacent thereto; or of Egypt, Israel or Lebanon, if such person is;
(i)	the son, daughter, brother or sister, as well as the husband or wife and the unmarried son or daughter under twenty one years of age of such son, daughter, brother or sister, as the case may be; or
(ii)	the unmarried orphan nephew or niece under twenty one years of age, or fiance
of a Canadian citizen or of a person legally admitted to Canada for permanent residence, who is residing in Canada and who has applied for such person, and who is willing and able to provide care and maintenance for such person until he has established himself successfully in Canada.
2.	Canadian citizens and legal permanent residents of Canada under the terms set out in section 31 of the immigration regulations.
3.	Statistics showing sponsored immigration by age groups are not available.
4.	The government's policy with regard to approval of applications of this nature reflects the regulations, i.e., the sponsor must be a Canadian citizen or a person legally admitted to Canada for permanent residence, residing in Canada, who is willing and able to provide care and maintenance for the person sponsored until such person has established himself successfully in Canada. Under paragraph (iv) of subsection (a) of section 31, where the admissibility of the person sponsored is also contingent on his educational, occupational or other special qualifications, it is the policy to assess the intending immigrant's qualifications under the same criteria which would be applied in the case of an unsponsored immigrant and to weigh any deficiencies against the nature of the assistance in establishment offered by the sponsor. Approval, however, is dependant on the immigrant's possession of an adequate education, training or skill, so that he is capable, with the initial help of the sponsor, and within a reasonable time of his admission, of becoming successfully established in Canada on his own resources.
5.	Yes: many factors enter into consideration of application for the admission of nominated immigrants; for example, the sponsor's own resources and capabilities and the extent and nature of his obligations, related to the obligations he is assuming, such as the number and kind of persons sponsored, their probable needs and the probable duration of the assistance they may require. To support his ap-

plication, evidence may be requested from the sponsor as to his financial or economic situation. Before an application can be accepted for approval, and as evidence of his acceptance of responsibility and good faith, the sponsor must sign an undertaking to provide care and maintenance for the person sponsored. The undertaking incorporates a guarantee that such person will not become a public charge in Canada.
6.	Yes.
7.	This information is not available.
8.	Where a sponsor withdraws support from a person brought to Canada on his application and this leads to the newcomer's requiring public assistance the department makes a full investigation of the facts. Where the sponsor defaults for reasons other than unemployment, has been obliged to cease support, the department will do what it can to secure employment for the newcomer with a view to making him self-supporting. Where the sponsor defaults for reasons other than inability to continue support the department uses all possible means of persuasion to require the sponsor to respect the terms of his undertaking of support. Where a sponsor deliberately defaults in his responsibility to provide reasonable care and maintenance for a migrant who came to Canada under his sponsorship and this fact is known to the department, it follows that any subsequent application by that sponsor for the admission of additional migrants is unlikely to be approved.



FAMILY ALLOWANCE AND OLD AGE PENSION PAYMENTS

Mr. Mather: What amounts were paid by the federal government as (a) family allowances during the year 1962 in each of the provinces of Canada (b) as old age pensions during 1962 in each of the provinces of Canada?


Stanley Haidasz: Listed below, by province, are the net payments for the year 1961-62 for family allowances and old age security.
(a) Family (b) Old Age Allowances Security
Newfoundland	$ 16,336,849 $ 11,947,626
Prince Edward Island 3,204,881	5,151,999
Nova Scotia
New Brunswick
Quebec
Ontario
Manitoba
Saskatchewan
Alberta
British Columbia Yukon and North West Territories
21,623,655
19,222,615
157,712,911
168,442,100
25,065,334
26,313,109
38,928,125
42,687,279
1,244,335
28,895,584
21,291,111
131,711,372
226,065,413
38,085,361
39,621,029
42,276,129
79,622,315
439,865
NATIONAL	$520,781,193 $625,107,804



COST OF IMPORTING U.S. MAGAZINES

Mr. Mather: What was the total amount of money paid by Canadians for the importation of American magazines during the year 1962?


Jean-Luc Pepin: There are no statistics on the total amount of money paid by Canadians for the importation of American magazines during the year 1962.
(Translation):



PUBLIC WORKS EXPENDITURES, QUEBEC CITY

Mr. Beaule: What amount did the Department of Public Works spend on public works in the city of Quebec last year ?


Hubert Badanai: 

(Text):



ST. CHARLES RIVER CONTAMINATION, QUEBEC CITY

Mr. Beaule: Does the government intend to solve the problem of the contamination of the St. Charles river in Quebec city, for which the citizens of this city have been pressing for so many years?


Stanley Haidasz: The Department of National Health and Welfare has not received any request from the Quebec department of health or the Quebec water purification board for assistance in solving the problem of contamination of the St. Charles river in Quebec city.
Where provincial water courses are involved, federal jurisdiction is limited and federal participation in pollution abatement programs can only be undertaken at the request of the provincial authorities.
(Translation):



* ELIMINATION OF LEVEL CROSSINGS, QUEBEC CITY

Mr. Beaule: Will the government include in its discussions with C.N.R. and C.P.R. representatives the matter of diverting train traffic from Quebec city in order to eliminate level crossings in the city?


Jean-Charles Cantin: A detailed answer to a question in regard to railway level crossings in the city of Quebec was given by the former minister of transport on January 30, 1963, at page 3255 of Hansard of that day. There has been no change in the situation since that time.
(Text):



'UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE CLAIMS, MONTREAL AND QUEBEC CITY

Mr. Beaule: 1.	Are decisions relating to various problems submitted to the Quebec office of the unemployment insurance commission taken by the Montreal office, and, if so, for what reason?
Questions
2.	What is the number of cases still pending, between Montreal and Quebec, since January 1,
1963?


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: 1. All non-contentious claims originating in Quebec city are adjudicated at that point. Contentious claims are sent for adjudication to the regional office in Montreal. Several reasons dictated this procedure, the most important of which were:
(1)	The constant training of qualified staff, to maintain a high standard of adjudication, is not practical when the adjudication staff is dispersed into small units.
(2)	Full utilization of expert adjudication staff is obtainable only where the volume of irregular claims warrants the establishment of such a staff.
(3)	Recruitment of staff with the necessary technical knowledge essential for this function was difficult at many points, and not obtainable at all at other points.
(4)	Consultation with officers having wide knowledge and experience with respect to the adjudication of contentious claims was not possible where only small units were constituted.
(5)	Uniformity of decisions in contentious claims is essential and is attainable only when the claims are dealt with at one point.
2.	None. Over 90 per cent of all claims sent by Quebec city to Montreal are back in Quebec city within three or four days of despatch by the latter. Delays of three to four weeks occur in less than 3 per cent of the claims during the period of heaviest claim load, and, because these delays are necessitated by the need for extended investigation, they would occur If adjudication were to take place in Quebec city.
(Translation):



DISPOSITION OF OLD POST OFFICE BUILDING, QUEBEC CITY

Mr. Beaule: What does the government intend to do with the old post office building on Henderson street
in Quebec city?


Hubert Badanai: That building will be occupied by the family allowances and old age security division of the Department of National Health and Welfare later this year, when the alterations needed are completed. (Text):



FOX RIVER, N.S., POSTMASTER

Mr. Coales: 1.	When was the new postmaster appointed at Fox river, Cumberland county, Nova Scotia?
2.	What is the postmaster's name?
3.	What were the names of other applicants for the position?


Mr. Denis:: 1. A permanent appointment has not yet been made.



S58 HOUSE OF COMMONS

[Stage Direction]
Questions
2.	Mrs. Lois P. Yorke is acting postmaster.
3.	The names of Mr. Seldon Benjamin and Mrs. Seldon Benjamin were suggested as persons who would be suitable for appointment.

Mr. Coales: 1.	Has a new postmaster been appointed at
Maccan, Nova	Scotia, and,	if	so, what is the
postmaster's name?
2.	What are	the	names	of	the	unsuccessful
applicants for the position?


Azellus Denis: 1. Yes. Mr. Logan H. Dwyer.
2. Mrs. Mary E. (Henry) Harrison.



JOGGINS, N.S., POSTMASTER

Mr. Coales: 1.	Has the new postmaster been appointed at-Joggins, Nova Scotia, and, if so, what is his name?
2.	What are	the	names	of	the	unsuccessful
applicants for the position?


Azellus Denis: 1. Yes. Mr. Cornelius Dujay.
2. Mr. James Daniel Hill, Mr. Abel Mc-Graw, Mrs. Shirley McGraw, Mr. Daniel Wall Adams,	Mr.	Adam	James	Gray, Mr. Harvey Leon Burke.



*FARM CREDIT LOAN APPLICATIONS, QUEBEC

Mr. Cole (Chicoutimi): Since the last amendment was made to the Farm Credit Act (a) how many loans were approved by the corporation in the counties of (i) Chicoutimi (ii) Lapointe (iii) Lake St. John and (iv) Rober-val (b) what were the total amounts of these farm loans (c) how many applications were submitted by farmers in these counties (d) how many applications were rejected (e) how many applications are being processed?


Bruce Silas Beer: I am informed by the Farm Credit Corporation that statistical records are not maintained on a constituency basis. However, in the municipal counties of Lac-Saint-Jean West, Lac-Saint-Jean East and Chicoutimi, which approximately coincide with the constituencies of Chicoutimi, Lapointe, Lake St. John and Roberval, the answer is as
follows:
(a)	Lac-Saint-Jean West	37
Lac-Saint-Jean East	6
Chicoutimi	12
Total	55
(b)	Lac-Saint-Jean West $521,600
Lac-Saint-Jean East	92,200
Chicoutimi	156,200
Total	$870,000
(c)	Lac-Saint-Jean	West	74Lac-Saint-Jean	East	34Chicoutimi	21Total	129(d)	Lac-Saint-Jean	West	4Lac-Saint-Jean	East	3Chicoutimi	nilTotal	7(e)	Lac-Saint-Jean West	72Lac-Saint-Jean East	31Chicoutimi	20Total	123
(Translation):



RAWDON, QUE.  POST OFFICE

Mr. Pigeon: 1.	Who submitted the lowest tender for the construction of a post office building in Rawdon, Quebec?
2.	Has construction work been suspended and, if so, under whose authority and for what reasons was work suspended?
3.	What decision has the public works department taken with regard to completion of this work?


Hubert Badanai: 1. Jean Jacques Lane, Enrg., of Rawdon, Quebec.
2.	Construction was suspended by the department on May 15, 1963, in order to investigate representations from local citizens.
3.	Work was ordered recommenced on May 22, 1963.



*C.B.C. INTERVIEWS WITH FRENCH CANADIAN CABINET MEMBERS

Mr. Pigeon: 1.	Has the C.B.C. interviewed successively the French-speaking members of the cabinet on the program entitled ''Aujourd'hui''?
2.	Did the C.B.C. follow this course in 1957, 1958 and 1962, and, if not, for what reasons?


John Whitney Pickersgill: The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation advises as follows:
1.	Yes.
2.	The television program "Aujourd'hui" did not exist at the time.
But, Mr. Speaker, the reply to the first question seems incomplete to me, because I did not get any invitation.



USE OF LOCAL LABOUR IN POST OFFICE CONSTRUCTION

Mr. Boutin: Does the Postmaster General intend to ensure that skilled and unskilled labour working on the construction of post offices are residents of the parishes where such construction is undertaken?


Hubert Badanai: Yes, the general conditions of articles of conventions of any contract stipulate that:


(1)	The contractor shall employ to carry out work Canadian manpower and materials as far as they are available and as long as it is compatible with a reasonable economy and a prompt execution of the work,
and that:
(2)	Notwithstanding paragraph (1), the contractor shall employ, as much as possible, manpower residing in the community where the work is carried out.



ST. ZACHARIE DE DORCHESTER, QUE., POST OFFICE

Mr. Boutin: 1.	Has the contract been awarded for the construction of a post office in the parish of St. Zacharie de Dorchester?
2.	If so, (a) what was the amount of the contract (b) to whom was it awarded (c) how much was paid for the land on which the post office will be built (d) from whom was this land bought?


Hubert Badanai: 1. Yes. 2. (a) $15,980. (b) Romain Drouin Entreprise Generale, St. Zacharie. (c) $4,500. (d) From the pastor and churchwardens of the parish of St. Zacharie, Que.



ST. ISIDORE DE DORCHESTER, QUE., POST OFFICE

Mr. Boutin: Is the Postmaster General aware that the existing post office in St. Isidore de Dorchester is only 15 years old and that it is fully capable of ensuring excellent service for the population of that parish?


Azellus Denis: Yes. However, in localities such as those, it is up to the Department of Public Works to provide postal premises. Moreover, that department is the one to decide whether the post office will be rented, as is the case in St. Isidore de Dorchester, or
3,	1963	559
Questions
whether a federal public building will be erected.



VALUE OF CANADIAN BONDS ISSUED

Mr. Pigeon: What is the value of the bonds issued by the government of Canada from 1914 to date?


Edgar John Benson: The par value of government of Canada bonds of domestic loans issued since December 1, 1915, the date of the first war loan, until March 31, 1963, totalled $73,675,221,000.
(Text):



PRODUCTIVITY INCREASE

Mr. Caouette: What has been the annual increase in productivity since 1949: and compared to 1949, how much had productivity increased in 1960, 1961 and 1962?


Jean-Luc Pepin: There is no official information available on productivity in Canada at the present time.



AID TO PROVINCES FOR TECHNICAL SCHOOLS

Mr. Caouette: What amounts were granted to each of the provinces as aid for specialized technical schools during each year since this program was initiated?


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: Following are the amounts contributed by the federal government to each of the provinces in respect of the costs of providing technical and vocational training facilities and toward the cost of operating technical and vocational schools and institutes during each year since April 1, 1961 when the technical and vocational training agreements concluded with the provinces under authority of the Technical and Vocational Training Assistance Act came into effect:
Capital costs of technical and Operational costs of technical vocational training facilities and vocational training facilities
Province	1961-62	1962-63	1961-62	1962-63$	$	%	$Newfoundland	
Prince Edward Island	
Nova Scotia	
New Brunswick	
Quebec	
Ontario	
Manitoba	
Saskatchewan	
Alberta	
British Columbia	
Northwest Territories	
Yukon Territory	
876,792.82	12,932,085.22 825,666.07 2,607,735.95 1,853,129.98 7,391,229.10 119,357,138.34 3,122,768.08 4,362,570.61 22,166,978.95 4,421,087.55 60,892.97 525,693.60	52,060.83 83,499.39 245,435.09 334,038.26 6,201,293.29 1,374,544.28 239,700.98 416,441.13 1,088,439.83 676,609.90 23,820.77 10,244.26	67,662.32 51,667.36 340,777.13 378,276.32 10,824,865.75 2,333,130.69 209.954.00 478,834.57 1,438,781.37 727.583.00 27,279.61 18,090.24
Questions



REORGANIZATION OF NEW WESTMINSTER HARBOUR COMMISSION

Mr. Mather: Is it the intention of the government to proceed at the present session with the reorganization of the New Westminster harbour commission into a Fraser river harbour authority?


Jean-Charles Cantin: It is hoped that action on the legislative program laid before parliament will permit consideration at the present session, of general municipal harbour commission legislation which would make possible the reorganization mentioned.



FRASER RIVER TRIFURCATION

Mr. Mather: Is it the intention of the government to proceed this year with the trifurcation of the Fraser river?


Hubert Badanai: No, this is unlikely as it is not expected that the necessary hydraulic studies will be completed in time to start actual construction this year.



*ROADS TO RESOURCES PROGRAM, NEW BRUNSWICK

Mr. Fairweather: 1.	What projects are planned under the joint Canada-New Brunswick roads to resources program in 1963?
2.	Is it proposed to finish projects already started before new projects are undertaken?
3.	Specifically, how much work is planned for (a) Kingston peninsula loop (b) Doaktown-Chip-man road (c) Grand Lake road?


Mr. Laing:: Mr. Speaker, I must warn the hon. member that he is putting me to quite a test in the pronunciation of these unusual New Brunswick names. I shall do my best.
1,	2 and 3. The following roads are to be constructed under the roads to resources agreement between Canada and the province of New Brunswick authorized by order in council P.C. 1957-1577, dated December 10, 1959:
Juniper, Napodogan road.
Plaster Rock, Renous road.
Doaktown, Chipman road, Blue River road, Mace's Bay road.
Saint John, Mispec road, Boiestown or Doaktown to Plaster Rock road, Kingston Peninsula loop, Westmoreland Shore road, Grand Lake road, Salmon River bridge, Cape Bald loop, Shediac bay loop, Buctouche bay loop, Richibucto loop, St. Croix river road, Bathurst westerly road, Heath Steel road.
Miscou Island, Shippegan Island road.
Lower Escuminac, Kouchibouguac road.
The provincial government has advised that the St. John-Mispec road has been completed. The agreement requires the province to complete construction of the other projects

by March 31, 1969, but the planning and scheduling of construction is a provincial responsibility under the agreement.



NATIONAL CANADIAN COLOURS AND EMBLEM

Mr. Matheson: 1.	Does Canada have national colours and, if so, what are these colours?
2.	Does Canada have a national emblem and. if so, what is the emblem?
3.	If the answer to parts 1 or 2 is yes, by what authority was such obtained and when?


Yvon Dupuis: 1. Yes; white and red.
2.	Yes; three maple leaves conjoined on one stem.
3.	By the royal proclamation dated November 21, 1921 by which, on the recommendation of the government of Canada in Canadian order in council P.C. 1496 dated April 30, 1921, His late Majesty King George V appointed and declared the arms and ensigns armorial of Canada.



PUBLIC WORKS PROJECTS, PARRY SOUND-MUSKOKA RIDING

Mr. Aiken: Is the government giving consideration to the following proposed public works projects in the riding of Parry Sound-Muskoka (a) wharf at Doe lake (Katrine, Ontario) (b) wharf at lake Isabella (c) wharf improvements at Magnetawan
(d)	wharf at Restoule lake (e) wharf at Riley lake (f) wharf at Wood lake?


Hubert Badanai: (a) Yes, a launching ramp is being considered, (b) No. (c) Yes. (d) No.
(e)	No. (f) No.



* REMOVAL OF PARRY SOUND MARINE AGENCY

[Stage Direction]
Question No. 91
Mr. Aiken:: Does the government plan to move the headquarters of the Parry Sound marine agency from the town of Parry Sound, Ontario?


Jean-Charles Cantin: No consideration has been given to this matter.



INTEREST RATES CHARGED BY BANKS ON PERSONAL LOANS

Mr. Thompson: 1.	Is the government aware that Canadian chartered banks are incorporating charges into personal loans that have the effect of raising the interest rate charged substantially above the legal maximum of 6 per cent per annum?
2.	Does the government contemplate taking any action to restrict the imposition of such charges?


Edgar John Benson: 1. In the case of a personal loan repayable in instalments, some of the chartered banks made an interest or discount charge at a rate not exceeding 6 per cent per annum as allowed by subsection 1 of section 91 of the Bank Act, and also charge a sum for keeping the loan account of the customer under an express agreement with the customer, as allowed by subsection 2 of section 93 of the act.

2.	This is a matter which will be considered at the next revision of the Bank Act and after receipt of the report of the royal commission on banking and finance.
1st CANADIAN AIR DIVISION, EUROPE


Mr. Harkness: 1.	How many F-104 aircraft are now in possession of the 1st Canadian air division in Europe?
2.	How many CF-104 squadrons have been formed in the 1st Canadian air division?
3.	When is it planned that these squadrons will become operational?
4.	What are the planned dates for the formation of the remainder of the CF-104 squadrons?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: 1. Sixty.
2.	Two.
3.	The date on which squadrons become fully operational is related to the completion of negotiations with the United States for the required armament.
4.	Present plans call for the completion of the formation of the CF-104 squadrons by late January 1964.



PROTECTION OF MILITARY INSTALLATIONS, QUEBEC

Mr. Harkness: 1.	What is the estimated cost of the damage done to military installations in the province of Quebec by the recent bombings and other terrorist activities of the FLQ?
2.	What is the estimated monthly cost to the Department of National Defence for the extra security arrangements which have been made to guard against damage by the FLQ?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: 1. $10,600.
2. $2,142.80.



TRAFFIC ACCIDENTS


Mr. Mather: 1.	How many persons were (a) killed (b) injured, in traffic accidents in Canada in 1957, 1958, 1959, 1960, 1961 and 1962?
2.	What was the estimated total property toll in these accidents?


Jean-Luc Pepin: 1. The number of persons killed or injured in traffic accidents in Canada, 1957 to 1962:
Persons killed Persons injured
	number	number
1957	3,260	78,4261958	3,118	80,0611959	3,231	84,7511960	3,283	90,1861961	3,426	99,2631962	3,883	111,1152. Estimates	of property	damage are
collected separately for each category of accident. Property damage from all accidents for Canada, excluding the province of Quebec which are not available, 1957 to 1962:
Questions
Property Damage (Thousands of dollars)
1957	73,123
1958	72,825
1959	78,706
1960	81,684
1961	84,696
1962	93,699



VETERINARY COLLEGE, PRAIRIE PROVINCES

Mr. Douglas: 1.	Has any consideration been given to the establishment of a veterinary college in the prairie provinces?
2.	If so (a) what decision has been reached (b) has the government agreed to pay any share of the costs (c) has either the government of Saskatchewan or the government of Alberta made any firm commitments or requests regarding this matter and, if so, what is their nature?


Bruce Silas Beer: 1. It is understood that the provinces of Saskatchewan and Alberta are giving consideration to the establishment of a veterinary college.
2. (a) The government has no knowledge of any decision having been reached.
(b)	This is under consideration.
(c)	The ministers of agriculture for the governments of Saskatchewan and Alberta have requested federal financial assistance in the establishment of a veterinary college.



TRANSAIR, LTD., MAIL CONTRACT

Mr. Fisher: Has Transair Limited been given in 1963 a mail contract on the south prairie air route and, if so, what are the financial terms of the contract?


Mr. McWilliam:: Yes-effective April 15, 1963 $1.50 per ton mile.



INCLUSION OF CHIROPRACTIC IN MEDICAL CARE PROGRAM

Mr. Fisher: 1.	In the consideration being given to the establishment of a medical care insurance system in Canada, is the inclusion of chiropractic as one of the healing professions accepted by the Department of National Health and Welfare?
2.	If not, could the department give its reasons for the exclusion of chiropractic in such consideration?


Stanley Haidasz: 1. and 2. As the question involves a matter of government policy any announcement by the government will be made at the appropriate time.



PURCHASE OF FORT WILLIAM &quot;TIMES-JOURNAL&quot; BY THOMSON INTERESTS

Mr. Fisher: Has any agency of the ministry of justice followed up the purchase of the Fort William Times-Journal by the Thomson newspaper interests and, if so, which agency, in what ways, to what conclusions?

Questions


Mr. Siewarl:: When the acquisition of the newspaper was made public in the latter part of September 1962, the director of investigation and research immediately examined the matter to determine whether an inquiry was warranted. The general practice, however, is that no information is given out as to whether an inquiry is being pursued unless and until a report is published.



TRANSAIR LIMITED, PRAIRIE SERVICE

Mr. Fisher: 1.	Did the government award the south prairie route to Transair Limited in 1963. and, if so, was the government aware of any statements beforehand by the president of Transair that Transair would take the south prairie route for an annual subsidy over 4 years of $325,000?
2.	Was a subsidy awarded to Transair, and, if not, in lieu of subsidy what arrangements were made regarding acquisition of airplanes and servicing of aircraft and what is the estimated value of this equipment and these services and by whom are they to be provided?
3.	Has ownership of any planes been transferred to Transair and, if so, what was the official price paid in the ownership transaction?


Jean-Charles Cantin: 1. (a) The air transport board by order No. 3490, dated March 11, 1963, granted a licence to Transair Ltd., to operate this route.
(b) The Minister of Transport has no personal knowledge of statements made by the president of Transair in regard to this matter.
2.	No. However, an agreement was entered into between Trans-Canada Air Lines and Transair providing for the acquisition of certain aircraft and the provision of aircraft maintenance service. This agreement is considered to be a commercial one as between the two companies and, as is well known, it has not been the practice to disclose the details of transactions of this nature.
3.	Yes, see answer to No. 2.
(Translation):
^MONTREAL-NATIONAL CENTENNIAL PLANS


Mr. Lessard: On the occasion of the centennial of confederation, does the national centennial administration (a) intend to build income producing buildings in the city of Montreal (b) know of a request which was made to hold the Grey Cup game for 1967 in Montreal, provided a suitable stadium is built there (c) received an official request from the city of Montreal on the building of such buildings or structures?


Mr. Lamoniagne:: The national centennial administration advises that the reply to the three questions of the hon. member is no. I must add, however, respecting the first question, that the plans of the national centen-

nial administration are not yet developed to the point where a final answer could be given.
(Text):



RETIREMENT PENSIONS OF ARMED FORCES OFFICERS

Mr. Dinsdale: 1.	Will the recently announced increase in pay for senior officers in the armed forces result in an increase in their retirement pensions?
2.	How many retired officers are in receipt of annual retirement pensions of (a) between 4 and 5 thousand dollars (b) between 5 and 6 thousand dollars (c) between 6 and 7 thousand dollars (d) between 7 and 8 thousand dollars (e) over 8 thousand dollars?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: 1. Yes, for those personnel retiring subsequent to 13 May 1963, since pensions are based on average pay and allowances during the last six years of service.
2. (a) 408. (b) 198. (c) 79. (d) 33. (e) 54.
(Translation):



ST. LAWRENCE SEAWAY    SALARIES OF CAUGHNAWAGA BRIDGE OPERATORS

Mr. Lachance: Is the St. Lawrence seaway authority reimbursing the C.P.R. for the salary of each operator at the seaway tower (Caughnawaga bridges 4 and 5) and, if so, what is the amount involved in each case?


Jean-Charles Cantin: The St. Lawrence Seaway Authority advises as follows:
Yes. Reimbursements in 1962 were as follows: in the case of four regular operators: $4,355.96, $4,865.38, $4,643.72, $4,470.87; and in the case of two relief operators: $560.55 and $357.96.
(Text):



PROVINCIAL MENTAL HEALTH AND HOSPITAL PROGRAMS

Mr. Orlikow: 1.	During 1960-61, how many projects were not approved, or reduced in amount, because the Department of National Health and Welfare did not have funds allocated to assist the provinces with an orderly development of their mental health programs?
2.	During 1960-61, how many hospital construction projects have been refused, or reduced in amount, because the Department of National Health and Welfare did not have funds allocated to assist the provinces with an orderly development of hospital facilities?


Stanley Haidasz: 1. The mental health grant, increased in the year 1960-61 to $8,765,391 from the previous amount of $7,234,868, was allocated to the provinces for that year under the terms of order in council of March 3, 1960 (P.C. 1960 18/257).
The provinces submitted projects for the development of their mental health programs within the amounts of allocation.

In one province only, which submitted projects in excess of the allocation of the grant, 20 projects had to be rejected or reduced.
2. No hospital construction project was refused or reduced in amount during the year 1960-61.
Note: The above replies are the same as those tabled in the House of Commons on October 15, 1962 in reply to exactly the same questions asked by another hon. member.



MENTAL HEALTH GRANTS

Mr. Orlikow: 1.	Has the minister or the Department of National Health and Welfare taken any steps to implement the proposals contained in the private member's resolution concerning mental health, which was unanimously supported and adopted by this house on December 5, 1960?
2.	Has the minister given consideration to the recent reports by the Canadian Mental Health Association, entitled "Mental Health Services in Canada", released in January, 1962, and the study of psychiatric services in Canada, entitled "More for the Mind", and has any action been taken in regard to the proposals set out in these reports?
3.	Has the minister received any representations from medical persons, boards or associations, concerning the utilization and size of the mental health grant; and, if so, what, in substance, were such representations?
4.	Has the government considered increasing the grant sufficiently to meet the existing needs in this neld?
5.	Since 1958, how many provincial governments have requested the inclusion of mental hospitals in the federal hospital insurance program (Hospital Insurance and Diagnostic Services Act)?


Stanley Haidasz: 1. The advisory committee (of the Department of National Health and Welfare) on mental health considered the private member's resolution and resolved in March 1961 and again in March 1962:
That the advisory committee on mental health approves the resolution adopted in the House of Commons on December 5, 1960, which called on the government to "consider the advisability of co-operating with the provincial authorities and such professional and other groups as may be interested, in making a national survey of the extent of mental illness, its causes, problems and methods of treatment, and considers favourably the advisability of a national survey.
That the advisory committee on mental health supports the resolutions by the Canadian Psychiatric Association and the Canadian Mental Health Association; and recommends that these resolutions be brought to the attention of the royal commission on health needs in the most appropriate manner.
That in the event that the general purposes of the Macnaughton resolution are not implemented by the royal commission on health
Questions
needs the subject be brought again before the advisory committee on mental health.
It is understood that several briefs to the royal commission on health needs brought this matter to the attention of the commission.
The report of the royal commission on health needs is expected to be published within the next few months. Study of the report will commence as soon as it has been received, with a view to implementing proposals the commission might present in accordance with its findings.
2.	The preliminary report of the Canadian Mental Health Association bearing the title "Mental Health Services for Canada" was studied by representatives from various provinces and organizations at an institute supported by the department held in Ottawa in January 1962. The subsequent final report "More for the Mind" was presented to the Minister of National Health and Welfare on May 2, 1963, and is presently under study.
3.	Representations have been received that the mental health grant should be increased and provision be made for annual increases in accordance with the growth of population.
4.	All national health grants, including the mental health grant, are under continuous study in order to provide suitable federal assistance on behalf of provincial health programs.
5.	Subsequent to discussions concerning the inclusion of mental hospitals under the hospital insurance program at the dominion provincial conference held in November 1957, the inclusion of these hospitals was raised by Prince Edward Island, Nova Scotia, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and British Columbia at the dominion provincial conference in July 1960.
Note: The first, third, fourth and fifth answers are the same as those tabled in the House of Commons on October 15, 1962 in reply to exactly the same questions asked by Mr. Alan Macnaughton, M.P.



PERCENTAGE OF UNEMPLOYED

Mr. Howe (Wellinglon-: Huron):
What was the percentage of unemployment to the total labour force, as of May 1, 1963, in Canada and in each of the provinces?


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: The percentage of unemployment to the total labour force, as at the week ended April 20, 1963 (which is the latest data available) is:
Canada 7.0; Atlantic 14.1; Quebec, 9.9; Ontario, 4.5; Prairies, 4.4; Pacific, 6.7.
Separate data for the individual Atlantic and prairie provinces are not available.

Questions



HUNTER RIVER, P.E.I. POST OFFICE

Mr. Macquarrie: Has a suitable site been obtained for the erection of a post office at Hunter river, Prince Edward Island and, if so, when is it intended to commence construction?


Hubert Badanai: No.



CHARLOTTETOWN, P.E.I. ARMOURY

Mr. Macquarrie: What are the present plans of the government for the construction of a new armoury at Charlottetown?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: There are no current plans tor the construction of a new armoury at Charlottetown.



RUSTICO HARBOUR BRIDGE, P.E.I.

Mr. Macquarrie: When is it intended to commence construction of the bridge across Rustico harbour to allow completion of the gulf shore highway in the Prince Edward Island national park?


Mr. Turner:: Factors involved in the construction of a bridge across Rustico harbour to complete the gulf shore highway in Prince Edward Island national park are being studied at the present time and considerable progress has been achieved. When these studies are complete, it will be possible to take a decision about the design and construction of the bridge.



BEAUCEVILLE HOSPITAL, QUE.  FEDERAL CONTRIBUTION

Mr. Perron: Did the federal government make any contribution through loans, grants or subsidies to the construction of the Beauceville hospital and, if so, what was the amount of the federal contribution?


Stanley Haidasz: No. Inquiry has been made of the province for additional information essential to the calculation of federal assistance under the terms of the hospital construction grant.
(Translation):



ST. GEORGES DE BEAUCE, QUE.-MAIL DELIVERY

Mr. Perron: Have any steps or decisions been taken to permit house to house mail delivery in the town of Saint Georges de Beauce?


Azellus Denis: No. A recent survey indicates that the number of potential points of call in St. Georges de Beauce is not sufficient to warrant the establishment of a door-to-door mail delivery service.
(Text):



FLOOD PREVENTION WORK, CHAUDIERE RIVER

Mr. Perron: Has the government received a request from the government of Quebec to undertake flood prevention work on the Chaudiere river?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: In so far as the Department of National Defence is concerned, there have been no requests from the province of Quebec for assistance with flood control in the Chaudiere valley since the flooding there in March 1962.



ST. MARIE DE BEAUCE, QUE.  CIVIL DEFENCE STATION

Mr. Perron: Have representations been made to the federal government and steps taken by the Department of National Defence to set up a civil defence station at Ste. Marie de Beauce?


Yvon Dupuis: No record.



FARM CREDIT ACT LOANS, BEAUCE COUNTY, QUE.

Mr. Perron: Since the last amendment was made to the Farm Credit Act (a) how many applications for loans were submitted by farmers in Beauce county (b) how many loans were approved by the corporation (c) what is the total amount of the loans granted in Beauce county?


Bruce Silas Beer: (a) 8; (b) 2; (c) $17,800.



'VOCATIONAL SCHOOLS


Mr. Olson: 1.	Has representation been received from any of the provinces to extend the 75 per cent rate of reimbursement to the provinces with respect to approved capital costs for building and equipment purchased within the agreement of federal-provincial technical and vocational training schools?
2.	Is it the government's intention to extend this program at the 75 per cent rate of reimbursement to the provinces beyond March 31, 1963?
3.	Is the government considering increasing the federal share of cost of operation in the vocational training section of these schools?


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: Mr. Speaker, the answer to No. 1 is yes; No. 2, this is being considered at the present time; No. 3, no.



CANADIAN NAVY DESTROYERS, GUNS AND FRIGATES

Mr. Fisher: 1.	Was the original estimated cost of each Mackenzie class destroyer in the neighbourhood of $23 million and, if so, what is the expected cost at the present time when the ships reach completion?
2.	Have there been a great many changes in plans for installation of such equipment as variable depth sonar and helicopter platforms; if so, why were these not on the original plans?
3.	How effective are the new three inch seventy deck guns, under consideration for use or being used by the Royal Canadian Navy?
4.	Has the government any knowledge of the use of these weapons and their subsequent abandonment by the Royal Navy and, if so, for what reason were they abandoned?
5.	Is the Department of National Defence reviewing the need for missile firing general purpose frigates?
6.	What is the estimated cost of such frigates and what comparison is there in this cost with the possibility of a purchase price on a new Oberon class submarine from Great Britain?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: 1. The original estimate was $23 million. The present estimate on completion is $26 million.
2.	It was found feasible to include variable depth sonar and helicopter platforms in the last two ships of the Mackenzie class (H.M.C.S. Nipigon and Annapolis) with minimum delay to normal planning and work schedules. The construction of the first four ships of the Mackenzie class was too far advanced to incorporate variable depth sonar and the helicopter platforms during construction.
3.	These guns are installed in the Resti-gouche class and three of the Mackenzie class ships. No additional orders are planned. They are considered effective against the targets for which they were designed.
4.	The Royal Navy has not abandoned the 3"70 gun. It is understood R.N. policy is the replacement of all anti-aircraft guns by missile systems. There are, nevertheless, several ships of the Royal Navy still in operation at sea using the 3"70.
5.	Yes.
6.	The cost of construction of the general purpose frigate is now estimated at approximately $37 million per ship. The latest available estimate for the Oberon class submarine is $11 million built in British shipyards.



ARDA PROJECTS, BRITISH COLUMBIA

[Stage Direction]
Question No. 122
Mr. Mather:: Is it the intention of the government to make ARDA legislation effective in British Columbia during 1963 and, if so, will drainage of the Serpentine and Nieomekl river valleys, in the lower mainland of British Columbia, be given priority among projects?


Bruce Silas Beer: ARDA legislation was made effective in British Columbia by signing of the ARDA general agreement by the government of Canada and the government of British Columbia on October 15, 1962.
Project agreements have been signed with British Columbia which allow for the approval of specific projects for the development of community pastures, for the acquisition of submarginal agricultural lands for alternate uses, and for the carrying out of research projects. A project agreement to allow for the approval of specific ARDA soil and water conservation projects in British Columbia is now under negotiation. Drainage programs in the lower mainland have been informally discussed but no formal proposal has yet been received from the province.



PURCHASE OF ACCESSORIES BY OIL COMPANY DEALERS

Mr. Mather: Has any inquiry been made during the past three years, under the provisions of the Combines Investigation Act, to ascertain whether automobile manu-
Questions
facturers, oil companies, etc., exert pressure on their dealers compelling them to purchase parts and accessories exclusively from the manufacturers or their wholesale outlets and, if so, what was the result?


Donald Stovel Macdonald: The general practice is that no information is given out as to whether an inquiry is being pursued in a particular industry unless and until a report is published. There have been no reports published under the Combines Investigation Act during the past three years concerning activities of the nature described on the part of automobile manufacturers or companies. In April 1962, however, a report of the restrictive trade practices commission on an inquiry made under section 42 of the act concerning the distribution and sale of automotive oils, greases, antifreeze, additives, tires, batteries, accessories, and related products was made public. Among the matters considered in the inquiry were policies of oil companies in their relations with retail gasoline outlets and involving full line forcing and directed buying.
(Translation):



STE. IRENEE LES BAINS, QUE.  WHARF REPAIRS

Mr. Belanger: 
Hubert Badanai: Yes, some maintenance work and repairs will be carried out early this summer.



BAIE ST. PAUL, QUE.-WHARF CONSTRUCTION

Mr. Belanger: Does the government intend to build in the near future a deep water wharf at Baie St. Paul, in Charlevoix county?


Hubert Badanai: No, not at the present time. (Text):



PAYMENTS TO DR. NOEL DROUIN, ST. TITE DES CAPS, QUE.

Mr. Belanger: Did Dr. Noel Drouin of St. Tite des Caps, Montmorency county, receive payments during the fiscal year ended March 31, 1962, totalling $6,552 from the federal government and, if so, what amount and for what services was Dr. Drouin paid?


Yvon Dupuis: Dr. Noel Drouin was paid $6,552 during the fiscal year 1961-62 by the Department of National Health and Welfare for his services as one of the four federal representatives on the medical review board under the disabled persons allowances program in the province of Quebec, and $20 by the Department of Veterans Affairs for medical services rendered to an eligible veteran under the department's doctor of choice plan.

Questions



PENSIONS FOR INCAPACITATED PERSONS

Mr. Mather: Has the government given consideration to the advisability of co-operating with the provincial governments regarding providing pensions equal to old age pensions for persons incapacitated and unable to earn their living, regardless of age?


Stanley Haidasz: As this is a matter of government policy any announcement will be made by the government at the appropriate time.
^METEOROLOGICAL TRACKING STATION, VICTORIA COUNTY, N.S.
Question No. 133

Mr. Muir (Cape Breton
North and Victoria):
1.	Has clearing been completed on the site of the Nimbus meteorological tracking station in Victoria county, Nova Scotia?
2.	How soon will tenders be called for construction of this station?


Jean-Charles Cantin: 1. Clearing of the site and entrance road is 90 per cent complete. Work has been discontinued because of restrictions on burning brush in the area.
2. The interagency agreement between the Department of Transport and the national aeronautics and space administration has not yet been signed; hence a date for tender calls cannot be firm. However, if the agreement is signed within a month, specifications will be completed this summer and tender call and contract award will follow this autumn. It is anticipated that foundation work and road construction can be completed prior to winter with the remainder of the construction occurring in 1964. On this schedule the facility could be operational during the spring of 1965.



NAVAL REFIT FOR FERGUSON INDUSTRIES, PICTOU, N.S.

Mr. MacEwan: Is it the intention of the government to allocate a naval refit in June to Ferguson Industries Ltd., Pictou; if so, what ship will be refitted and what is the approximate estimate of the contract?


Mr. Drury:: Yes. A contract has been awarded to Ferguson Industries Ltd., Pictou, Nova Scotia, for the docking and refit of H.M.C.S. Chaleur. The work is scheduled to commence on June 3 and be complete on July 26. The estimated value of the contract is $75,000.



CONTRACTS FOR VALCARTIER ARSENAL

Mr. Beaule: Have any negotiations been undertaken in order to obtain new contracts for the Valcartier arsenal so that the employees who have been laid off, many of whom live in Quebec city, may return to work?


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: With completion of substantial and long term Canadian and U.S. contracts for various calibres of military small arms

ammunition dating back to Korean war requirements, it has become necessary for the Valcartier plant of Canadian Arsenals Limited to re-establish operations at a level consistent with foreseeable needs of the armed services. This new level, involving a lower production rate and reduced employment, is expected to continue for the next few years, or until the requirements of our armed forces or those of our allies should demand large volume deliveries.
The crown company is currently adjusting its staff to the new production rate and any re-employment of staff released during this process would depend, of course, upon the extent of future ammunition requirements.
Officers of the company and of the Department of Defence Production continue to look for opportunities to employ the unique capabilities of this plant, as well as other plants of the corporation.



RESEARCH INTO RADIOACTIVE LEVELS

Mr. Cameron (Nanaimo-: Cowichan-The Islands):
1.	Has the Department of National Health and Welfare established any research program to establish the levels of radioactive material falling on Canada as a result of nuclear testing?
2.	Has the department undertaken any research as to the threshold of danger to human life and health in regard to any of these radioactive substances?
3.	If not, on what research facilities does it depend for its information?


Stanley Haidasz: 1. Yes, the department has a comprehensive program designed to determine the levels of radioactive fall-out in Canada as a result of nuclear testing.
The program involves: air sampling (24 stations, daily collection and analysis); precipitation sampling (24 stations, monthly collection and analysis); soil sampling (23 stations, annual collection and analysis); milk sampling (major dairies in 16 cities, three times a week collection, weekly analyses for iodine 131 and monthly analyses for strontium 90 and cesium 137); wheat sampling (nine major wheat producing areas, annual crop samples and analysis); and human bone sampling (collected from hospitals across Canada, as available).
2.	The department is engaged in studies which will make it possible to make better estimates of the radiation dose resulting from radioactive fall-out.
3.	The department has for many years used the recommendations of the international commission on radiological protection as the basis for evaluating radiation levels. Recommendations of other recognized authoritative bodies such as the United States federal radiation council are used when applicable. Members

of the department are also in close touch with recognized scientists in this field in this and other countries.



REFINANCING OF N.H.A. MORTGAGES TO COVER IMPROVEMENTS

Mr. Scott: 1. Was the Minister of National Revenue interviewed by the Ontario retail lumber dealers association with a view to the introduction of a plan for refinancing N.H.A. mortgages to cover home improvements and, if so, what was the nature of the minister's response to the said proposal?
2. Does the government intend to introduce at the present session legislation to implement this proposal?


John Richard Garland: 1. No.
2. As announced in the speech from the throne, various aspects of the National Housing Act are being considered and any amendments will be announced in due course.



FLAGS FLOWN BV ARMED FORCES

Mr. Matheson: What flag, or flags, were flown by the armed forces of Canada in world war I and world war II, and upon what authority?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: During world wars I and II, the ships of the R.C.N. wore the white ensign and the Canadian blue ensign under authority of order in council P.C. 2843 dated 16 December 1911, the adoption of these ensigns having been ratified at the imperial conference in 1911.
During world war I, the Canadian army flew the union jack.
The red ensign, bearing the 1921 approved shield of the arms of Canada, was subsequently approved by P.C. 134 in 1924 for display outside of Canada on Canadian government property.
During world war II, the following flags were flown by the Canadian army:
(a)	The union flag (jack) which was the flag officially prescribed in King's Regulations and orders, 1939, for the Canadian army until superseded by the Canadian red ensign;
(b)	The Canadian red ensign was authorized by Canadian army routine order 4021 dated 22 January 1944 to be flown at all units of the Canadian army serving with the forces of other nations.
(c)	The Canadian red ensign was authorized by Canadian army overseas routine order 4582 dated 10 May 1944, to be flown overseas on all appropriate occasions by formations and units when serving in the same command, formation or area with or in proximity to British, dominion or allied forces;
(d)	A distinctive Canadian army battle flag was authorized by the cabinet and militia
Questions
council on 7 December 1939, for the commander of the senior Canadian formation overseas and was assigned to the commander first Canadian infantry division when proceeding overseas. This flag is known to have been used on one or two occasions in 1940 in Britain. The flag was a white ensign with the union flag in the upper corner next to the mast; in the centre of the flag, a large sprig of three red maple leaves and in the upper corner at the fly end were three golden fleur-de-lis on a blue roundel.
The R.C.A.F. was not in existence in world war I. In 1923 the Canadian air force was authorized to fly the ensign adopted by the R.A.F. This assent was contained in dispatch 578 of 22 October 1923 from the secretary of state for the colonies to the Governor General.
On 5 July 1940 royal assent was given to alter slightly the design of the ensign as flown by the R.C.A.F. by substituting a small red maple leaf for the red centre roundel. This ensign was flown by the R.C.A.F. in world war II.



*MODIFICATIONS IN GERMANY TO CF-104 PLANES

Mr. Rynard: 1.	With regard to the CF-104 aircraft shipped to Canadian air bases in Zweibrucken, Germany, did these aircraft require modifications in the latter part of 1962?
2.	If so (a) why were these modifications not made in Canada prior to shipment of these aircraft overseas (b) what will be the total cost of these modifications (c) will these planes be in a state of combat readiness prior to June 1963 (d) of what nationality are the tradesmen engaged on these modifications (e) what, if any, will be the total wages paid to other than Canadian workers?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Modifications were required to be carried out on CF-104 aircraft delivered in the latter part of 1962 to R.C.A.F. No. 1 division base at Zweibrucken, Germany.
2. (a) If the modifications had been carried out in Canada, there would have been delay in the agreed schedule of delivery of these aircraft to the air division. The modifications were required to improve the operational capability of the aircraft which had been test flown in Canada prior to delivery to Europe.
(b)	$285,000 including $150,000 for the production of the modification kits in Canada.
(c)	The aircraft have been modified and are fully capable of meeting their role.
(d)	Canadian and British.
(e)	$72,000.



PER CAPITA INCOME

Mr. Caouetie: By provinces, what was the average per capita income in I960, 1961, and 1962?

Questions


Jean-Luc Pepin: Personal income per person, by provinces, 1960, 1961 and 1962:
1960	1961	1962$	$	$Newfoundland	879	921	972Prince Edward Island	990	971	1,009Nova Scotia	1,166	1,205	1,245New Brunswick	1,046	1,062	1,107Quebec	1,308	1,361	1,417Ontario	1,800	1,851	1,938Manitoba	1,549	1,522	1,696Saskatchewan	1,475	1,241	1,690Alberta	1,555	1,608	1,687British Columbia	1,783	1,817	1,896Yukon and Northwest Territories	1,333	1,243	1,205Canada	1,534	1,563	1,658



BURNABY, B.C. ARMOURY

Mr. Douglas: Is consideration being given to the building of an armoury in Burnaby, B.C., and if so (a) when (b) at what location will it be built (c) what will be the total cost and (d) how soon will a call for tenders be advertised?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Consideration has been given to the construction of an armoury at Burnaby, B.C., and certain preliminary planning has been done, but no definite plans have been made for its construction.



MILK SUBSIDY

[Stage Direction]
1960-61	1961-62	*1962-6384,129	75,799	70,03414,846	13,358	14,86737,294	41,203	32,3165,016,757	5,852,139	5,408,0455,898,214	6,313,786	5,800,79446,576	52,690	49,42911,561	3,046	2,092243,767	244,611	295,64236,427	32,277	249,800$11,389,571	$12,628,909	$11,923,019
'Incomplete.

Mr. Kennedy: Have any representations been received from any individuals or organizations requesting that the federal government underwrite all or most of the cost of a highway crossing of the Shubenacadie river in the vicinity of Maitland in Nova Scotia?


Hubert Badanai: Yes, from Hon. G. I. Smith to Hon. Robert Winters on April 23, 1957, and from Mr. Cyril F. Kennedy, M.P. to Hon. H. C. Green on December 5, 1957.



SHUBENACADIE, N.S., POST OFFICE FACILITIES

Mr. Kennedy: What consideration is the government giving to new or expanded post office facilities at Shubenacadie, Nova Scotia?


Hubert Badanai: Tenders have been called for a small addition to be erected at the rear of the existing federal building for use as a mail lobby.


Mr. Pigeon: 1.	In what year did the government initiate the subsidy of 25 cents per hundredweight for milk?
2.	What was the amount of the subsidy paid, by provinces, for each year?


Bruce Silas Beer: 1. The subsidy of 25 cents per hundredweight on milk used for manufacturing purposes to eligible producers who did not participate in the fluid milk market was instituted in May, 1959.
2. The amount of subsidy, by province for each fiscal year was as follows:
Province	1959-60
Prince Edward Island	76,090
Nova Scotia	12,141
New Brunswick	31,436
Quebec	4,731,191
Ontario	5,825,966
Manitoba	38,887
Saskatchewan	15,513
Alberta	186,835
British Columbia	33,258
Total	$10,951,317



EXPENDITURES TO ENCOURAGE SPORTS

Mr. Langlois: 1.	What was the total amount spent by the federal government during the fiscal years ended 1961-62-63 for the encouragement of sports, indicating totals received by each province?
2.	What provinces have signed agreements with the federal government to benefit under this program?


Stanley Haidasz: 1. Expenditures under the Fitness and Amateur Sport Act, which came into force on December 15, 1961 were: 1961-62, $229,641; 1962-63, 981,270.
Agreements with the provinces covering the payment to them of federal grants under the act were first signed in 1962-63. The amounts paid to the provinces in that year were:
Newfoundland
Prince Edward Island
Nova Scotia
New Brunswick
Quebec
Ontario
Manitoba
Saskatchewan

Nil
51,405.50
36,946.63
34,680.58
[Mr. Caouette.l

Alberta
British Columbia Northwest Territories Yukon
34,612.19
34,685.69
22,381.10
20,957.05
2. All provinces except Quebec signed agreements for the year 1962-63.
(Translation):
Questions
tailed estimates for the distribution of government of Canada securities for those groups of investors for which information becomes available and for the residual holdings appeared in the September 1962 issue of the Bank of Canada Statistical Summary (page 545).
2 and 3. See answer to (1).



C.B.C. PAYMENTS TO STATION CKLD, THETFORD MINES, QUE.

Mr. Langlois: What federal monies were granted to CKLD radio station, Thetford Mines, which has been directly connected with the C.B.C. since its establishment?


John Whitney Pickersgill: I am advised by the C.B.C. that, if the question refers to monies granted to that station for broadcasting of C.B.C. sustaining programs, the answer is: nil.
(Text):



FARM LOANS, MEGANTIC CONSTITUENCY

Mr. Langlois: 1.	How many farm loans were granted in the electoral district of Megantic in 1962, and how many applications were received?
2.	What is the total amount of loans granted?


Bruce Silas Beer: The Farm Credit Corporation reports that statistical records are not maintained by electoral districts. However, in the municipal county of Megantic, which approximately coincides with the electoral district of Megantic, the answer is:
1.	10 farm loans; 22 applications.
2.	$126,700.
(Translation):



GOVERNMENT BONDS HELD BY INDIVIDUALS

Mr. Langlois: 1.	What is the total value of the government bonds held by ' individuals in Canada?
2.	What amount of interest was paid on these bonds in 1962?
3.	What proportion of the total purchasing power of Canada do these bonds constitute?


Edgar John Benson: 1. Individuals hold government securities in the form of Canada savings bonds and in the form of market issues. Individuals also have funds in various financial institutions and pension funds which in turn hold government securities.
The amount of outstanding Canada savings bonds, which can be held only by individuals who are Canadian residents, is published each week by the Bank of Canada and as at May 22, 1963 was $4,491 million. There is no basis for a direct estimate of individuals' holdings of market issues which can be held by all types of investors and which can be traded freely. The most recent de-
(Text):



CONSIDERATION OF RECOMMENDATIONS OF GILL REPORT

Mr. Langlois: Will amendments to the Unemployment Insurance Act recommended by the Gill report, be referred to a committee of the house for consideration?


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: As stated previously in the house, it is not the intention of the government to recommend that the Gill report be considered by a committee. However, the government intends to recommend that any proposed legislative changes to the present unemployment insurance system be considered by a committee at the appropriate stage.



WINTER WORKS PROGRAM


Mr. Langlois: 1.	What amount has been granted to the city of Thetford Mines, P.Q. under the winter works program for the 1962-63 season?
2.	What part of this sum has been allocated to the civic center at Thetford Mines, P.Q.?


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: 1. Projects submitted by the city of Thetford Mines, P. Q., under the 1962-63 municipal winter works incentive program call for federal incentive payments totalling $114,429.
2. None of this amount relates to the construction of a civic center.



GRANTS TO UNIVERSITIES

Mr. Langlois: What amount of federal funds was allocated to Canadian universities during the fiscal year ended March 31, 1962, and of this amount what portion was received by universities in the province of Quebec?


Jean-Luc Pepin: Canada Quebec
Operating grants paid through Canadian universities foundation	$19,360,080 Nil (1)
Capital grants paid from the Canada Council capital grants
fund	6,237,504 2,186,148
Research grants acknowledged by reporting institutions	Not available
Loans made by Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation	20,251,000 10,702,000

Questions
(1) The Federal-Provincial Tax-Sharing Arrangements Act provides that any provincial government may give assistance to universities at a per capita rate at least equivalent to aid for the other provinces and in return receive an abatement of 1 per cent of corporation income tax. In this year Quebec again took advantage of this act and received the appropriate abatement of $7,888,816 equivalent $1.50 per capita of provincial population.



CONSTRUCTION OF PENITENTIARY, ST. PIE DE BAGOT, QUE.

Mr. Ricard: On what date does the Department of Public Works expect to begin construction, on behalf of the Department of Justice, of a medium security penitentiary at St. Pie de Bagot, as announced by the Minister of Justice on September 18, 1961?


Donald Stovel Macdonald: Subsequent to the disturbance at St. Vincent de Paul penitentiary, it was decided to substitute a maximum security institution for the medium security institution proposed for St. Pie de Bagot, the institution to be sited north of the St. Lawrence for ease of access from St. Vincent de Paul penitentiary. The St. Pie de Bagot site is being retained for future use by the federal government.



INTEREST ON FEDERAL DEBT

Mr. Mather: 1. What was the amount in dollars paid in interest on the federal debt in the fiscal year 1957?
2. What was the amount in dollars paid in interest on the federal debt in the fiscal year 1962?


Edgar John Benson: 1. $520.2 million.
2. $802.9 million.



BUTTER IN STORAGE

Mr. Mather: 1.	What was the total quantity of butter in government storage during May 1960, 1961, 1962, and 1963?
2.	What was the annual cost of storing this butter?
3.	Is consideration being given to reducing this surplus of butter and this storage cost by making butter available to senior citizens at minimum prices? 2


Bruce Silas Beer: 1. Agricultural stabilization board stocks (pounds) at May 1st
	Butter	Butter Oil
1960	69,377,544	-1961	72,253,957	24,620,3821962	64,365,558	81,390,7981963	88,383,736	81,702,162
2. Annual cost of storing agricultural stabilization board butter and butter oil- fiscal years.

1960-	61	$2,863,277.791961-	62	$3,960,325.501962-	63	$4,422,361.24
3. Various disposal and utilization programs have and are being considered but no final decision has been reached.



TRAVEL ALLOWANCE TO TRANSPORT DEPARTMENT EMPLOYEES, TORONTO AIRPORT

Mr. Smith: Is a daily travel allowance paid to any Department of Transport employees working at Toronto international airport; if so, on what basis, and to what classification of employees is it paid?


Jean-Charles Cantin: (a) A daily travel allowance of 65 cents per working day or shift per employee is paid.
(b)	This allowance is paid to cover extra zone fare beyond the normal city street car or bus fares incurred in travelling between an employee's place of residence in Toronto and vicinity and his place of employment at the Toronto international airport provided the distance is five miles or more from the place of residence to the place of employment.
(c)	This allowance is paid to all employees of the Department of Transport, both casual and classified, provided they meet the criteria indicated in paragraph (b).



CANADIAN ARMY BADGE

Mr. Maiheson: Does the Canadian army have a distinguishing badge and, if so, what is that badge, when, and how was such badge authorized and approved?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Yes. The design includes the crown, crossed crusaders swords and three red maple leaves on one stem. The badge was agreed to by the minister of national defence, concurred in by the Governor General and approved by His Majesty, King, George VI, in February 1947, and subsequently registered at the college of arms in London, England, as the design for the Canadian army badge.
RECOGNITION OF COMMON LAW WIFE	[DOT]


Mr. Fisher: 1.	Is the common law wife deemed to be a dependant for the purposes of income tax payments?
2.	Is the common law wife deemed to be a dependant for the purpose of payments by the unemployment insurance commission and, if not, has the government given consideration to the provision of such payments?


Yvon Dupuis: 1. No.
2. No.



LOUISBURG MUSEUM


Mr. Muir (Cape Breton North and Victoria): 1.	Has Miss Josephine Pope been employed at the Louisburg museum for the past twenty or more seasons and, if so, will she be re-employed during the coming season?
2.	If Miss Pope is not to be re-employed, what is the reason for this decision?


John Napier Turner: 1. Department records indicate that Miss Josephine Pope has been seasonally employed (May to October) at least since May 15, 1950. Earlier records are not available. She will not be re-employed this year.
2, Miss Pope has passed the normal retiring age for the public service.



WEST ARICHAT, N.S., LIGHTKEEPER

Mr. Muir (Cape Breton North and Victoria): Has the Department of Transport removed, or is it planning to remove, the lightkeeper from his
Questions
position at West Arichat, Richmond county, Nova Scotia, and, if so. for what reason?


Jean-Charles Cantin: The West Arichat light consists of two, forming a range, and the equipment is automatic. Accordingly there is no lightkeeper as such, but there is a caretaker who changes light bulbs as required and can observe the operation of the lights at night from his residence.
The lighthouse structures are beyond repair and it is proposed to demolish them and discontinue the lights which no longer serve the traffic they were built for in 1904. Improvement of the light at Crichton head, distant three quarters of a mile, should serve present day navigation adequately.



FLUID MILK PROCESSED INTO BUTTER AND CHEESE

Mr. Pigeon: During the last three years, by provinces, what quantities of fluid milk were used for (a) cheese processing and (b) butter processing?


Bruce Silas Beer: See attached table.



QUANTITIES OF FLUID MILK USED IN CHEESE AND BUTTER PROCESSING, BY PROVINCE, 1960, 1961 AND 1962

[Stage Direction]
Milk Equivalent of Cheese1 2	Milk Equivalent of Butter2
Province	1960	1961	1962	1960	1961	1962
'000 lb. '000 lb. '000 lb. '000 lb. '000 lb. '000 lb.
Prince Edward Island	
11,308	9,636	9,801	122,546	135,90/	138,692Nova Scotia	
-	-	-	84,544	91,868	88,288New Brunswick	
7,755	6,182	5,533	169,369	177,161	163,355Quebec	462,075	551,351	548,311	2,895,306	3,260,322	3,381,932Ontario	.	824,221	833,419	826,104	1,998,266	2,223,843	2,370,093Manitoba	
7,788	8,203	9,145	579,805	591,505	599,157Saskatchewan	
3,212	330	-	655,481	664,256	637,790Alberta..	....	19,888	20,141	19,085	873,709	957,458	910,915British Columbia	
11,077	13,398	11,033	118,404	137,592	168,831Totals	
1,347,324	1,442,660	1,429,012	7,497,430	8,239,912	8,459,053
1 Includes all types of cheese except the milk equivalent of cream used in creaming cottage cheese.
! Calculated on basis of 23.4 pounds of milk per pound of butter. Both whole milk and cream are bought for processing into butter but data on exact quantities of each are not available.

Mr. Douceti: 1.	How much will the 5 cent increase on milk for Cheddar cheese cost the government on the 1962 production?
2.	Has the government cut or does it contemplate cutting the bonus on export quality Cheddar cheese; if so, when will it take effect, and what saving will effect on the 1962 export figures?


Bruce Silas Beer: 1. Assuming the same level of Cheddar cheese production in 1963 as in 1962 and the same proportion of eligible milk being
used for this production, the cost of the 5 cent increase on eligible milk used for the production of Cheddar cheese will amount to $641,300, approximately.
2. There has been no cut in the bonus or premium on export quality cheddar cheese, however, the assistance on the movement of cheddar cheese into export has been reduced by 1 cent per pound, effective on cheese manufactured after May 1, 1963. Assuming the same amount of export in 1963 as in 1962, the amount of saving would be $260,576.
Questions

(Translation):



ABITIBI


Mr. Laprise: 1.	What amount has the Department of Forestry-contributed, under the joint program, for the forest access roads in the counties of Vassal, Bourque, Mazarin and Megiscane during the 1962-63 fiscal year?
2.	During the winter of 1962-63, how many men were employed (a) at clearing the right of way and (b) construction, of each of these roads?


Mr. Nicholson:: 1. Projects	Federal contribution
Access road Villebois and Bourque Access road Desboues-Mazarin Megiscane road Vassal road-Abitibi 2. Projects
Access road Villebois and
Bourque Access road Desboues-Mazarin Access road Megiscane Access road Vassal-Abitibi
Employees
Clearing
(Done by owners of local saw mills. No clearing rights required).

Construction
man-days
63-1,491
10- 549 26- 529
8- 106
with regard to
No information is available winter and summer work.
Employment figures are for the 1962-63 fiscal year.
(Text):


John Whitney Pickersgill: I agree with the hon. member. I remember the dates of both floods very well, but I do not think there was any fund in connection with the Fraser river flood- any fund which was consolidated in such a way as to make the federal government answerable for it. I think it is probably the other flood the hon. member means.



ALERT BAY, B.C., FEDERAL BUILDING

Mr. Barnell: 1.	Has the Department of Public Works acquired property for the site of a new federal building at Alert Bay, B.C., and, if so, have tenders been called for the removal of existing buildings from such a site in preparation for new construction?
2.	If not, when is it expected that such a call for tenders will be issued?
3.	Have plans been prepared for the erection of a building at such a site and. if so, what is the size of the proposed building, how much space will be provided for post office purposes, what other branches of the federal government services will be housed in this building, and how much space has been allotted to them?


Hubert Badanai: 1. Yes; property has been acquired and tenders called for the removal of existing buildings but no contract has yet been awarded.
2.	Answered by (1) above.
3.	Plans for the federal building at Alert Bay are now completed. It will be a one storey structure with basement with dimensions of about 59 feet by 62 feet. The following office space will be provided:
Post Office Department	1,250 sq. ft.
Citizenship and immigration
department (Indian affairs) 1,168 sq. ft.
Fisheries department	774 sq. ft.



LIVES LOST IN FIRES


Mr. Howard: 1.	Was any money left unexpended from the fund established for the 1948 Fraser river flood and, if so, how much and in whose possession?
2.	What requirements must be met in order that this money may be used for other floods or the results thereof?


John Whitney Pickersgill: I wonder if the hon. member has in mind the Bed river rather than the Fraser valley flood. If he could take note of this observation and perhaps amend his question I think it would be answerable, if that is what he means.


Mr. Knowles:: It will be drawn to the hon. member's attention.
Question stands.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I wonder if the Secretary of State would also take another look at question No. 193. The Red river flood was in 1950. There was a Fraser river flood in 1948.


Mr. Mather: How many lives were lost in dwelling fires in Canada in the years 1960, 1961 and 1962, and how many such fires were attributed to burning cigarettes?


Hubert Badanai: 1960, 442; 1961, 417; 1962, figures not yet available.
The number of dwelling fires attributed to burning cigarettes is not known. The number of lives lost through smokers' carelessness was 69 in 1960 and 79 in 1961.



ARDA PROJECTS APPROVED, MANITOBA

Mr. Siefanson: 1.	How many projects has the government approved in the province of Manitoba under the Agricultural Rehabilitation and Development Act?
2.	What is the nature of each of these projects, on what dates were agreements signed, and what is the estimated cost of each?
3.	What share of the cost of each project is to be borne by (a) the federal government (b) the provincial government?


Bruce Silas Beer: 1. Eighteen.
2.	Four projects (evaluated at $85,000, $95,000, $95,000 and $35,000) involve the acquisition of marginal agricultural lands for alternate forestry, wildlife and recreational use with a total cost of $310,000; two projects (evaluated at $43,200 and $38,400) involve the reconstruction of main drainage systems in agricultural areas with a total cost of $81,600; seven (evaluated at $24,800, $62,000, $3,600, $36,000, $2,400, $13,500 and $23,000) are research projects in the utilization and productivity of lands with a total cost of $165,300; five (evaluated at $10,700, $9,000, $7,000, $9,900 and $15,000) involve community and economic studies of the Interlake region of Manitoba with a total cost of $51,600.
These projects were approved during the past two months, following the signing of agreements by Canada and Manitoba on March 15, 1963 under which individual projects can be initiated.
3.	The federal government is sharing equally with Manitoba in the six projects involving the acquisition of marginal agricultural lands and the reconstruction of drainage systems. In five of the research projects in the utilization and productivity of lands the federal government is sharing equally with Manitoba.
In the two research projects evaluated at $13,500 and $15,000 and in the five community and economic studies of the Interlake region, the federal government is paying 100 per cent of the cost.
Questions



NORTHERN ALBERTA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY

Mr. Lambert: 1.	Did the Minister of Labour recently attend the official opening of the northern Alberta institute of technology in Edmonton, and at whose invitation?
2.	What has been the total contribution of the federal government to the cost of construction and equipping of this institute, as at the latest available figures?
3.	Are there more payments anticipated toward these costs and, if so, in what amount?
4.	What is the total cost of the project as submitted for approval by the Minister of Labour?


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: 1. Yes, at the invitation of the minister of education for the province of Alberta.
2.	Total claims paid as of March 31, 1963 amounted to $8,955,534.
3.	Yes, approximately $2,394,098.
4.	Total cost $15,132,843. Estimated federal share $11,349,632.



VOCATIONAL TRAINING PROJECTS APPROVED, ALBERTA

Mr. Lambert: 1.	Under the Technical and Vocational Training Assistance Act, how many projects have been approved for the province of Alberta from December 1961 to March 31, 1963?
2.	What are the locations of each of these projects, the individual approved cost thereof and the related contribution by the federal government?


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: 1. 21 projects.
2. See table 1 attached.
PROJECT SUMMARY under
TECHNICAL AND VOCATIONAL TRAINING AGREEMENT April 1, 1961 to March 31, 1963 Province of Alberta
Location
Bowness
Calgary.
Camrose... Desmarais.. Drumheller Edmonton..
New Student Total	Estimated
Places Estimated Federal Name of School	Provided Cost	Cost
Bowness composite high school	
C.V.T. centre 2A (trade)	
North Hill academic and vocational school
(comp)	
St. Francis vocational high school	
South Calgary academic and vocational school
(comp)	
Southern Alberta institute of technology....
Camrose composite H.S	
Desmarais vocational school	
Drumheller vocational H.S	
Bonnie Doon composite high school	
C.V.T. commercial centre	
Eastglen composite high school	
Northern Alberta institute of technology....
Queen Elizabeth composite high school	
Ross Sheppard composite high school	
S	$
500	1,939,000	1,084,500
	286	214
800	2,898,638	2,173,978500	874,564	655,923600	2,295,201	1,721,401450	2,725,354	2,044,015280	936,066	702,05030,800	23,100400	1,573,121	1,179,84143,000	32,2504,420	3,31542,000	31,5002,500	15,132,843	11,349,63240,000	30,000375	893,443	670,083
574
Questions

Province or Alberta-Concluded
New Student Total	Estimated
Places Estimated	Federal
Location	Name of School	Provided Cost	Cost

Edmonton (Continued). St. Joseph's vocational high school (comp.)
Strathcona comp, high school	
Victoria vocational high school	
Fairview	 Fairview school of agriculture	
Fort Chipewyan	 Fort Chipewyan (Indian) school	
Fort MacMurray	 Peter Pond (Indian) school	
Grande Prairie	 Grande Prairie vocational high school	
Grouard	 Grouard comp, high school	
Jasper Place	 St. Francis Xavier high school (comp.)	
Lethbridge	 Lethbridge collegiate inst	
Lethbridge junior college and vocational school
(trade)	
Winston Churchill collegiate institute	
Medicine Hat	 Medicine Hat composite high school	
Olds	 Olds school of agriculture	
Red Deer	 Red Deer vocational high school (comp.)	
Stettler	 Stettler composite high school	
Vermilion	 Vermilion school of agriculture	
West Jasper	 West Jasper Place (comp, high school)	
TOTAL	 April 1, 1961 to March 31, 1963
540	2,019,580	1,514,685
	34,000	25,500
1,000	4,890,850	3,668,137
	18,281	13,711
75	232,272	174,20475	198,024	148,518400	1,662,159	1,246,619300	1,050,177	787,632150	361,200	270,900191,600	143,700330	1,191,862	893,89614,000	10,500500	2,396,762	1,797,571350,497	262,873400	2,118,518	1,588,889300	977,906	733,43021,995	16,4971,100	2,666,514	1,995,65111,575	49,824,933	36,994,715



FEDERAL LOAN FOR POWER PLANT, NEWCASTLE CREEK, N.B.

Mr. Fairwealher: What Is the amount of the loan approved by Canada under the provisions of the Atlantic Provinces Power Development Act to assist the New Brunswick electric power commission to build the new coal burning thermal power plant now under construction at Newcastle Creek, Queen's county. New Brunswick


Arthur Laing: The answer is $10 million.



FREIGHT SUBSIDY ON MARITIME COAL

Mr. Fairwealher: What consideration is being given by the government for increasing the freight subsidy paid for movement of New Brunswick and Nova Scotia coal to other parts of Canada?


William Moore Benidickson: The assistance paid on the movement of New Brunswick and Nova Scotia coal to other points in Canada has been and remains the amount necessary in each case to meet the competition of imported coal or of imported residual oil.
Consideration is not being given at present to paying more than is necessary to meet that competition.



DELAY IN PAYING PART TIME EMPLOYEES, TORONTO POST OFFICE

Mr. Scott: Has the government received any complaints concerning delays of up to nine days in the preparation of pay cheques for part time employees of the Toronto post office and. if so, are steps being taken to improve staff pay procedures?


Azellus Denis: (a) Yes; (b) yes.
IMr. Byme.l


Mr. Thomas: 1.	What was the total amount of butter in the possession of the government on (a) March 31, 1962, (b) March 31, 1963?
2.	How much did it cost the government for storage on butter during this period?
3 What did the butter subsidy cost the government during this period?
4.	What is the estimated value of the butter stocks now in the possession of the government?


Bruce Silas Beer: 1. The total amount of butter in possession of the government on, (a) March 31, 1962, was 63,136,716 pounds of butter and 76,515,840 pounds of butter oil, and (b) March 31, 1963 was 90,852,683 pounds of butter and 81,702,162 pounds of butter oil.
2.	The cost to the government for storage of butter and butter oil during the fiscal year 1962-63 was $4,442,361.24.
3.	The cost of the butter subsidy to the government for the fiscal year 1962-63 was $42,272,807.00.
4.	As the agricultural stabilization board is offering its holdings of butter at 52 cents per pound and butter oil at 65 cents per pound, the estimated value of these stocks at May 1, 1963 was 88,363,736 pounds butter at 520: $45,949,142; 81,702,162 pounds butter oil at 650: $53,106,405. Total: $99,055,547.



LAKE ST. LOUIS WATER LEVEL

Mr. Rock: 1. Has the attention of the government been drawn to the low water level of lake St. Louis?

2.	What, If any, is the government's responsibility with regard to the maintenance of an adequate water level on lake St. Louis?
3.	What steps has the government taken to ensure an adequate water level on lake St. Louis?


John Napier Turner: 1. The government is concerned about the low supply situation in the Great lakes-Ottawa river drainage and the consequent low water levels in the great lakes and lake St. Louis, and officials are accordingly in daily touch with the situation.
2.	The government does not have any responsibility for maintaining an adequate water level on lake St. Louis. It does have a responsibility under the Navigable Waters Protection Act to review plans for structures in navigable waters and to ensure that the proposals are acceptable before issuing a permit under that act. The government also has a responsibility to ensure that regulation of St. Lawrence river outflow from lake Ontario is conducted in accordance with an approved plan that is designed to improve navigation and power production while protecting foreshore interests on lake St. Louis and in other areas.
3.	With regard to Ottawa river flows, the government has obtained an agreement from the Quebec hydroelectric commission that the works at Carillon will be maintained and operated in such a way as to protect fully the paramount interests of navigation upstream and downstream of the structure. With regard to the flows out of lake Ontario, the plan of regulation approved by the government resulted in a substantial increase in St. Lawrence river flow into lake St. Louis with a corresponding increase in the level of that lake commencing at midnight on 31 May.



REPRESENTATIONS RESPECTING GREAT LAKES LABOUR DISPUTE

Mr. Scott: Have any representations been received by the government from either the Seafarers International Union of Canada or the Upper Lakes Shipping Limited and, if so (a) what was the nature of such representations (b) from whom were they received (c) what, if any, was the response of the government to such representations?


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: Yes.
(a)	Both the union and the company made representations to the government concerning their positions in matters arising in the dispute between them.
(b)	From the president of Upper Lakes Shipping Limited and from counsel acting for the company and for the S.I.U.
(c)	The government has actively sought to ensure that there will be free access to United States ports without impediment or harassment.
28902-5-37i
Orders for Returns



PRINCE EDWARD ISLAND CAUSEWAY

Mr. Macquarrie: 1.	Has the government rejected an application from the government of Prince Edward Island for assistance, under the roads to resources program, in the construction of a causeway at Victoria, P.E.I.?
2.	If the proposed causeway project has been rejected, on what grounds was such decision made?


John Napier Turner: 1. No.
2. N/A.



EMIGRATION TO U.S. FROM COMPTON-FRONTENAC CONSTITUENCY

Mr. Latulippe: During the past ten years, how many persons from the constituency of Compton-Frontenac have left the country for the United States either with a visa or with the intention of residing there permanently?


Yvon Dupuis: There is no government record from which the information requested can be drawn.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. Knowles: 1.	Are any cabinet ministers directors of any companies, corporations, etc., and, if so, what ministers, of what companies or corporations are they directors, and at what date were any directorships presently held by such cabinet ministers assumed?
2.	Did any cabinet ministers resign any directorships on being sworn of the privy council and, if so, which ministers, on what dates, and from what companies or corporations?


NATIONAL CAPITAL COMMISSION ACQUISITION OF LAND
Mr. Fisher: 1.	From the 1st day of May, 1960, to the 30th day of April, 1963, were any lands or buildings acquired by the national capital commission in (a) the city of Ottawa (b) the county of Carleton (c) the county of Russell (d) the city of Hull (e) the county of Hull (f) the county of Gatineau?
2.	If so, (a) from whom (b) on what date (c) what is the legal description and total acreage of the property in each case (d) what was the total price paid to the vendor or any other persons in respect to the acquisition of each such property (e) for what purpose, either present or future, was each such property acquired, and to what use is each presently being put?
3.	At the present time, has the national capital commission any agreements of sale or options for the acquisition of other property, or has it commenced expropriation proceedings for the acquisition of other property in any of the aforesaid cities or counties?
4.	If so, (a) what is the legal description and total acreage of each such property (b) from whom is each such property to be acquired (c) what is the total price payable to the vendor or any other person under any such agreement of sale or option in respect of the acquisition of each such property (d) what is the total price which

Inquiries of the Ministry
has been offered to the owner of any such property In respect of which expropriation proceedings may have been commenced (e) for what purpose, either present or future, is each such property to be acquired, and to what use will such property be put?


WHEAT SALES
Mr. Olson: What were the total sales of wheat for each of the years from 1952 to 1962 to Canada's 15 largest customers (countries) ?


FOREIGN PAYMENTS TO AND FROM CANADA
Mr. Langlois: 1.	What is the balance of payments due by Canada to foreign countries?
2.	What is the balance of payments due by foreign countries to Canada?


ASSISTANCE TO UNIVERSITIES
Mr. Caouetle: 1. What amounts have been spent during the last five years to assist (a) universities of Canada (b) universities of the province of Quebec?
2 What amounts have been granted to each of these universities?



HIS HOLINESS THE POPE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Lester Bowles Pearson: If, by unanimous consent, we might revert to motions I should like to make an announcement which has just been brought to my attention, a very sad announcement to the effect that His Holiness the Pope passed away shortly before the house convened this afternoon.
On behalf of the government I have sent a message of sympathy to the apostolic delegate and have also issued the following statement which perhaps I may be permitted to read to the house. The statement is as follows:
May I on behalf of the government and people of Canada express my deep and profound sympathy on the death of His Holiness, Pope John XXIII.
During the relatively short period of his pontificate His Holiness won the admiration and deep respect of peoples of all religious faiths. His dedicated service to the cause of Christian unity, to the freedom and welfare of mankind and, above all, to the realization of the ideals of peace, which only recently he expressed so movingly and impressively, set an example for all men.
His loss will be deeply felt in Canada, as it will throughout the world, but we are the richer for the inspiration of his life, his words and his work.


Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, I join with the Prime Minister in the words of sympathy he has expressed. My wife and I had a memorable experience within one week after

His Holiness became spiritual head of his church, in that we were received in private audience. I shall always recall that as one of the most impressive privileges which has been mine. In that short half hour he revealed himself as a devout, kindly and, above all, a humble person.
His devotion to the cause of world peace, has, as the Prime Minister said, made him in a few years one of the most renowned popes in modern history, a world voice for peace and the social betterment of all mankind. All of us, without regard to our religious persuasion, recognize him as a leader in Christendom.


Mr. R. N. Thompson (Red Deer):: On behalf of our group in this house I join with other hon. members in expressing our sympathy and our support of the message which the Prime Minister has so promptly forwarded on this sad occasion.
In the short four and a half years during which Pope John XXIII was head of his church he made a great contribution to the cause of peace, and convinced men of all faiths around the world of his dedication to the causes he stood for and represented so faithfully, and without equivocation, day after day. Thus we join not only with the hon. members of this house but with peace loving, Christian people and men of all faiths around the world who at this time mourn his passing.


Mr. T. C. Douglas (Burnaby-Coquitlam):: Mr. Speaker, we in the New Democratic party would like to associate ourselves with the expression of sympathy which has been placed before the house by the Prime Minister at the passing of His Holiness Pope John XXIII. It is undoubtedly true that history will place the late Pope among the great Christian leaders of our time. His two encyclicals, Mater et Magistra and Pacem in Terris, are mountain peaks in Christian expressions of the desire for social justice and peace in our time. Very few Christian leaders have reached out as he has to embrace all mankind and all men of good will, and I think when the story of his life is written it will be summed up in the simple words "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the sons of God".



COLUMBIA RIVER


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Prime Minister whether he is in a position

to give us any statement regarding the conversations and discussions which have taken place between him and the premier of British Columbia; whether there has been as between them any tacit agreement arrived at as to changes which might be asked for in the treaty; and whether, if there be, would such changes require implementation or further implementation by the United States congress.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, I had the privilege of meeting the premier of British Columbia this morning with two of his colleagues and advisers. I was accompanied by the Secretary of State for External Affairs and by my colleagues and advisers. After the preliminary discussions which I had with Mr. Bennett, the discussions on the matter to which the Leader of the Opposition has referred were continued under the chairmanship of my hon. friend the Secretary of State for External Affairs. Those discussions, which were conducted in a very friendly and I believe constructive spirit, Mr. Speaker, will be continued for at least the rest of the day and perhaps tomorrow, and at the end of the discussion I should hope it would be possible to make a report to the House of Commons.



EXTERNAL AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Prime Minister. In view of a report in the Montreal Gazette of June 1 that "the United States told the disarmament conference the Soviet demand for a nuclear-free zone in the Mediterranean is nonsensical propaganda", does the Prime Minister still hold the view he expressed on May 22 that the Soviet proposal "is a very important proposal indeed"?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I think any proposal coming from the Soviet Union is likely to be an important proposal, and I think this was an important proposal. As my hon. friend gave me notice that he was going to raise this question, perhaps I might say a word about it. Indeed, I indicated that I would when it came up previously.
Although it is not possible to state one over-all policy with respect to the question of denuclearised zones, it should be recognized that any such proposal must meet at least three criteria. First, it should be acceptable to the countries of the geographical area in which the zone would be located. That seems to be obvious. Second, it should
Inquiries of the Ministry include some arrangement for verifying that the commitments undertaken would be carried out. And third, it should be consistent with the accepted principle that no disarmament measure should create a unilateral advantage for any state or group of states.
As to the first point, Mr. Speaker, the Soviet proposal does not involve Canada directly, though it certainly involves Canada as would any proposal which might have some bearing on the easing of tensions. Therefore, while it does not involve Canada directly we shall have to await the considered reaction of the countries to which it was addressed before we come to a considered conclusion ourselves. The reports we have had so far indicate that it does not have the support of all the countries concerned.
With regard to the second and third criteria, there is no mention of procedures for verifying that obligations undertaken would be carried out; and there has apparently been no attempt to maintain equality and balance among the states concerned. This situation, of course, might be altered in the course of negotiations if negotiations began. I mentioned, for example, in my original reply to the hon. member that it would be interesting to know whether the Mediterranean zone would include the Black sea; the text of the proposal suggests that it does not, and that in fact it involves no territory in which the Soviet Union is directly involved. As such, its effect would be to achieve a unilateral advantage for the Soviet Union, a result which would not be likely to contribute to the relaxation of tension.
Nevertheless, Mr. Speaker, despite these obvious shortcomings and the propagandistic tone and timing of the proposal, I want to assure the house that its exact terms are being given and will be given careful study, as will the reactions of the countries most directly concerned, and that any possibilities it may hold out for constructive steps to reduce the danger of war will certainly be taken into account in determining our final position on this matter.


PAKISTAN
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Prime Minister whether, in view of the tragedy which struck the people of East Pakistan, if the government of Canada is prepared to give some assistance to the families of those afflicted in that area of a country which is such a bastion against communism?

Inquiries of the Ministry
Righl Hon. L. B. Pearson (Prime Minister):
Mr. Speaker, my hon. friend the Secretary of State for External Affairs, who has already been dealing with this matter, would perhaps answer this question.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, the Canadian government has learned with deep regret of the many deaths and severe damage caused in East Pakistan by a cyclone and subsequent tidal wave last week. On May 31 the Prime Minister sent a message to the president of Pakistan to convey to the families of the victims the deep and sincere sympathy of the government and people of Canada. The government is now considering a Canadian government relief contribution to Pakistan to help alleviate the distress caused by this natural disaster suffered by a fellow member of the commonwealth. So far as is known, no Canadian citizens were killed or injured in the disaster.
(Translation):


PREVENTION OF ENTRY OF SABOTEURS FROM CUBA
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Maurice Cote (Chicoutimi):: Mr. Speaker,
I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Justice or to the Secretary of State for External Affairs.
According to this morning's Le Devoir, police are holding eight or nine FLQ terrorist suspects. One of the men apparently has been trained in Cuba. If this news is true, have representations been made to Cuba in order to prevent the entry into Canada of other people of the same kind? If not, what other measures have been taken in that regard?


Hon. Paul  Marlin@Secrelary of Stale for External Affairs: Mr. Speaker, I shall answer this question tomorrow.
(Text):


CANADIAN MEMBERSHIP IN ORGANIZATION OF AMERICAN STATES
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. A. B. Patterson (Fraser Valley):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs. Would the minister say if there is any basis in fact to the radio report that the Canadian government has made quiet representations with a view to joining the organization of American states?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, I know of no representations that have been made, and I

can add nothing more to what I said on May 20 in answer to another question on this subject by another hon. member.


INQUIRY AS TO SALARIES OF EMPLOYEES OF COMMISSION
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. E. Nasserden (Rosthern):: Mr. Speaker,
I wonder whether I could direct a question to the Minister of Finance. Could the minister tell us when the remaining categories of the employees of the board of grain commissioners may expect their increase in salaries?


Walter Lockhart Gordon: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the hon. member would be kind enough to ask the question again.


Edward Nasserden: I would be glad to. Could he tell us when the remaining categories of employees of the board of grain commissioners could expect or will receive their increases in salaries?


Walter Lockhart Gordon: Mr. Speaker, I will be glad to look into that matter and give an answer tomorrow or the next day. I have already talked about the whole subject of salary increases, but I will be glad to look into this special case.
SUPPLEMENTARY PAYMENTS ON 1962-63 CROP On the orders of the day:


Mr. Reynold Rapp (Humboldl-Melfori-Tisdale):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce. Is the minister able to inform the house whether the Canadian wheat board will be in a position to make supplementary payments this year on the farmers' 1962-63 crop?


Hon. Mitchell Sharp (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: Mr. Speaker, may I take this question as notice?


LABOUR CONDITIONS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Arnold Webster (Vancouver-Kingsway):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Labour. In view of the fact that the Canadian federation of mayors and municipalities has endorsed the principle that employable persons should be required to work in return for their welfare allowances, and in view of the possibility of such action resulting in the displacement of regular workmen, will the minister indicate the attitude of the government in regard to this suggested policy?


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: Mr. Speaker, as the minister is away on an important mission I should like to take a notice of the question and bring it to his attention for an answer at the earliest possible moment.
(Translation):



PUBLIC SERVICE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. L. J. Pigeon (Jolielie-L'Assomplion-Montcalm):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Prime Minister. It follows from one I asked the President of the Privy Council some time ago.
Could the Prime Minister tell the house if the government has begun to implement the recommendations contained in Mr. Therrien's report?
(Text):


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, the whole question of the recommendations of the Glassco report and the minority report attached to it, the Therrien report, is now under active consideration. (Translation):


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary question to ask the Prime Minister.
When does the Prime Minister intend to make an official statement and announce that the report submitted by Mr. Therrien will be acted upon?
(Text):


Lester Bowles Pearson: At as early a date as possible, Mr. Speaker.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Barry Mather: Mr. Speaker, I have a question I would like to direct to the house leader. Considering the several questions of concern now facing the fishing industry, can the house leader give any indication when action will be taken to set up the standing committee of the house on marine and fisheries?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, conversations are going on at the present time among hon. gentlemen who represent the four parties in the house with a view to reducing, if possible, the over-all size of certain of the committees. I hope those conversations will be concluded today, and I believe my hon. friend from Hull then intends to call together the striking committee
inquiries of the Ministry as quickly as possible with a view to determining the personnel of these committees. Once that is done a motion will be made in the house to set up these committees without further delay.



RED CHINA


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. C. S. Smallwood (Battle River-Camrose):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Trade and Commerce. In view of press reports that Australia has made another very substantial wheat sale to China, and that Australian spokesmen have expressed satisfaction at concluding this arrangement before the Canadian trade mission arrives in China, would the minister consider taking immediate steps to organize and dispatch our delegation by air, without waiting for the slow boat to China next month, in order that Canada may hold its present wheat trade with that country?


Mitchell William Sharp: Mr. Speaker, discussions between the Chinese government and the Canadian wheat board have been under way for some time, and today in Hong Kong our mission is meeting with representatives of that country.


Hon. Alvin Hamilton (Qu'Appelle):: Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary question. Has the minister issued any instructions that there shall be secrecy about the personnel on the trade mission to Hong Kong?


Mitchell William Sharp: No, Mr. Speaker.
(Translation):



ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Lucien Plourde (Quebec West):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Justice.
Can the minister tell us if the R.C.M.P. has been put on the alert to protect children against kidnappers, following four kidnappings that took place on the Plains of Abraham, in view of the fact that this park falls under the jurisdiction of the R.C.M.P.?


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, I think I have already answered such a question. Although that property belongs to the federal government, it remains that, under the constitution, the municipal
580	HOUSE OF COMMONS
Inquiries of the Ministry
authorities first and then the provincial authorities are empowered to start proceedings against anyone that might have contravened the Criminal Code.


Mr. Gerard Laprise (Chapleau):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a supplementary question to the Minister of Justice.
Can the minister tell us if at the present time the R.C.M.P. is patrolling the park on the Plains of Abraham?


Lionel Chevrier: No, Mr. Speaker, I am not in a position to answer that question but I will get information on that matter.



INQUIRY OF THE MINISTRY

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Gérard Laprise: Mr. Speaker, I should like to address a question to the Minister of Finance.
Could the hon. gentleman tell us whether the hon. member for Quebec South got a bilingual parliamentary indemnity cheque this month and, if not, has he refused it as he did last year?
(Text):


Walter Lockhart Gordon: No, Mr. Speaker.


Mr. Speaker:: I should advise hon. members that it is not customary to address questions, concerning other hon. members, to the ministers.



NATIONAL DEFENCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Robert Simpson (Churchill):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to address a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs. Can the minister inform the house whether the United States government intends to go ahead with plans, which I am told it has had for some time, to step up to a considerable degree its rocket testing project in the vicinity of Fort Churchill, Manitoba?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, I would be glad to take notice of this question and deal with it later.



DISCUSSIONS RESPECTING U.S. AIR FORCE UNITS IN CANADA

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of National Defence. In view of a report in the Toronto Globe and 
Mail of June 1, that a highly placed U.S. military authority stated the United States is seeking authority to send an increasing number of U.S. interceptor squadrons into Canada on a rotation basis, could the minister now give the house some information about the "informal intimations" he stated on May 29 had been received?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Mr. Speaker, I do not think there is anything further I could usefully add at the moment to what I have already said in the house.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: As a supplementary question, have any requests been made to the minister or his department to co-operate in the sending of these interceptor squadrons to Canada?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: As the hon. member is no doubt aware the question, of course, is not new. I would like to quote to the house a report made on March 2, 1959, as recorded at page 1515 of Hansard for that date, by Hon. G. R. Pearkes, then minister of national defence, who said this:
In the NORAD agreement about which some remarks were made this afternoon it is written that the squadrons of either side may for a short period or may temporarily move across the boundary and in order to facilitate that there will be certain developments made at some of our air fields particularly in western Canada where we have no defence provided by the R.C.A.F.
There have been some discussions between the armed forces of the two countries, but no proposal has yet come forward to the government of Canada.



REPORTED ELECTION COMMENTS BY R.C.A.F. OFFICER

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. R. W. Pritiie (Burnaby-Richmond):: Mr. Speaker, on Thursday last I asked the Minister of National Defence a question about statements made by an R.C.A.F. officer in Colorado Springs. I wonder whether he is ready to answer that question now.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman referred to an article that appeared in the newspaper Le Droit of Wednesday, May 29, concerning alleged statements by an R.C.A.F. officer at Colorado Springs. At that time I told the hon. member I would look into the matter, and I can now report the following.
Seventeen Canadian newsmen visited NORAD headquarters in Colorado Springs on May 27 for NORAD briefings. In response to a specific question regarding names of Canadian parliamentarians who had ever visited NORAD headquarters, names were mentioned. Apart from this, the briefers and

senior NORAD officers at no time mentioned or named any Canadian political party or individual. In response to questions concerning Bomarc and nuclear weapons, full and factual information was provided by the NORAD officers concerning these weapons.
In view of the above information, the second part of the hon. member's question is not applicable.


Mr. H. W. Herridge (Kootenay West):: supplementary question. Has the minister any information to the effect that the senior Canadian officers at NORAD told these newspapermen that the policy of the government was wrong with respect to nuclear weapons?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: No, Mr. Speaker.


Clifford Silas Smallwood: A supplementary question. Is the
minister aware that these men said that only two members of parliament had ever visited Colorado Springs? Is he aware of that?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: No, Mr. Speaker.



INDUSTRY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. A. D. Hales (Wellington South):: Mr. Speaker, I would like to address a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce. As a result of the trade negotiations at Geneva, does the government intend to continue with the Bladen plan as implemented by the former government?


Mitchell William Sharp: Mr. Speaker, I think this is a question that should be directed to the Minister of Finance.


Alfred Dryden Hales: May I so direct it, Mr. Speaker.


Walter Lockhart Gordon: Mr. Speaker, when the government has a statement to make on that policy it will do so, perhaps before very long.



PUBLICATIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Douglas Mason Fisher: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Finance, and ask him whether, since he took office, he has received any visitations from Canadian magazine publishers regarding their competitive difficulties with Time and Life magazines and, if so, has he under consideration incorporating some relief in the budget?
Inquiries of the Ministry


Walter Lockhart Gordon: I have received some representations, Mr. Speaker, and these are being considered at the present time.



FINANCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Robert Norman Thompson: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Finance. In view of the substantial outflow of gold from the United States at the present time, and the consequent risk of the devaluation of the United States dollar in terms of gold, is the government considering the possibility of holding a greater part of Canada's foreign exchange reserves in metallic gold and a smaller part in U.S. currency, as is done by most of the major western powers?


Walter Lockhart Gordon: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for giving me notice of this question. The government does not believe that the present outflow of gold from the United States involves a risk of devaluation of the United States dollar.



ARTS, LETTERS AND SCIENCES INQUIRY AS TO PERSONNEL OF ROYAL COMMISSION

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Nicholas Mandziuk (Marquette):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to address a question to the President of the Privy Council. It arises out of an article in Time magazine of May 17 where he was quoted as saying that the members of the commission to study biculturalism and bilingualism would be named before the end of May. My question is, has the commission been named?
(Translation) :


Maurice Lamontagne: No, Mr. Speaker.
(Text):


J. Nicholas (Nick) Mandziuk: A supplementary question. Is the minister giving any consideration to naming to this commission representatives from other national groups than the two basic groups of Canada?
(Translation):


Maurice Lamontagne: Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member is willing to wait, his impatience will soon be satisfied.
(Text):


J. Nicholas (Nick) Mandziuk: A further supplementary question. I think my question is justified because under the terms of reference as set out by the Prime Minister to the premiers of the various provinces, one of the considerations will be the contributions of other nationals

Inquiries of the Ministry or other cultures. I think this house is interested in knowing whether the contributions of other cultures will be recognized by representation on this commission.
(Translation):


Maurice Lamontagne: Mr. Speaker, I do not believe that it would be in keeping with parliamentary tradition to announce the membership of royal commissions on the orders of the day.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a supplementary question to the President of the Privy Council.
Did the minister not state in Montreal a few weeks ago that this commission would also make inquiries among the other ethnic groups, such as the Italians?


Maurice Lamontagne: I am sure that the hon. member has read the terms of reference which were drawn to the attention of this house. (Text):


Mr. Speaker:: Order. In due course the minister will announce to the house the composition of this commission. It is not in order to anticipate names.



SUGGESTED REDUCTION IN TARIFF

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
David Orlikow: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Finance. Is the government giving consideration to reducing the tariff on sugar imports of all kinds so as to reduce the price of sugar, and continuing such reductions until the present inventories in stock are used up?


Walter Lockhart Gordon: Mr. Speaker, as all hon. members know the minister is working on the budget and consideration is being given to the tariff and to all other questions of policy. It would be inappropriate for me to say more at this time.



THE BUDGET


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Minister of Finance if June 13 is the date on which he is going to bring down the budget?


Walter Lockhart Gordon: Mr. Speaker, I hope to be able to satisfy the hon. member's curiosity very soon.


(Translation):



DOMINION-PROVINCIAL RELATIONS FEDERAL POLICY RESPECTING PROVINCIAL JURISDICTION

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the President of the Privy Council.
Following the reply which the Prime Minister gave to the question put by the hon. member for Pontiac-Temiscamingue concerning the municipal development and loan board and provincial authority, must we conclude that the federal government's policy is to decide questions which come under the jurisdiction of the provinces without consulting the latter?


Maurice Lamontagne: No, Mr. Speaker.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Could the minister explain the answer he has just given.
(Text):



REQUEST FOR INQUIRY INTO PRICE INCREASES

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Barry Mather: Mr. Speaker, last Friday I directed a question to the Minister of Justice which he took as notice, and I wonder if he is ready to answer the question now. The question was to this effect. Having in mind his department's review of increased sugar prices, would his department also concern itself with the recent increases in the price of bread such as took place in Montreal last week?


Lionel Chevrier: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I am ready to reply to the question which, if I read Hansard correctly, was as follows:
Is he aware of the increases in the prices of bread announced simultaneously yesterday by leading bakeries in Montreal and attributed by them partly to the higher cost of sugar and, if so, will he have his department look into this matter?
The reply I have to make is as follows. The director of investigation and research under the Combines Investigation Act informs me that he has noted press reports concerning an increase in the price of bread in Montreal, and is studying the matter in order that he may determine whether the situation is such as to warrant formal inquiry under the act.



VETERANS AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Chesley William Carter: Mr. Speaker, on Friday last the hon. member for Winnipeg South Centre asked whether any appointments had been made to the Canadian pension commission since April 21, and the minister undertook to give him an answer today. The answer is as follows. Two reappointments have been made to the Canadian pension commission. They are Mr. L. A. Mutch, commissioner and deputy chairman, and Mr. Rene Painchaud, commissioner. We hope to announce shortly a third appointment to the commission.


Hon. Gordon Churchill (Winnipeg South Centre):: I have a supplementary question. Will the parliamentary secretary indicate, of the three appointments made, which were to the permanent board and which would be called ad hoc appointments?


Chesley William Carter: There were only two appointments, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Mutch was appointed to the permanent board, and I will have to find out about Mr. Painchaud.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: should like to address a question to the parliamentary secretary. Is anything going to be done about the amendments to the veterans legislation urged by the hon. member when he was in opposition?



AGRICULTURE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: should like to direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture or, in his absence, the Minister without Portfolio or the parliamentary secretary. May I congratulate the government upon arranging to send a delegation of 20 Canadians to attend the world food congress being held this month in Washington under the sponsorship of the food and agriculture organization of the United Nations.
Since the purpose of this conference is to promote the freedom from hunger campaign, may I ask the Department of Agriculture what contribution Canada is prepared to make to this campaign, and whether it is the intention of the government to increase the supplies of food which it proposes to make available to the needy and underdeveloped areas of the world.
28902-5-38J
Inquiries of the Ministry


Hon. Rene Tremblay (Acting Minister of Agriculture):: Mr. Speaker, as a member of the food and agriculture organization the government is contributing to the freedom from hunger campaign, along with all other member countries, through the regular food and agriculture organization budget. In addition, Canada made a special contribution of $23,000 to the campaign for organizational purposes during its first year of operation.
A major objective of the campaign has been to enable non-governmental organizations and individuals to contribute directly. There is a very active freedom from hunger campaign committee in Canada. The world food program, which is the organization for multilateral distribution of food to needy areas, is a separate organization from the freedom from hunger campaign. Canada has committed a contribution of $5 million to the world food program, one third in cash and the balance in commodities, for the initial three year period. This, of course, is in addition to the assistance under the Colombo plan and the special assistance to Africa.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: May I ask a supplementary question. Does the government intend to offer, at this conference, to step up its contributions of food or other supplies?


René Tremblay: Mr. Speaker, we are studying this problem.



FISHERIES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. T. S. Barnett (Comox-Alberni):: I was
trying to address a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs, but he seems to have vanished from the house. Possibly he has business with the premier of British Columbia, and if so I forgive him. Perhaps his parliamentary secretary or the Prime Minister might take this question.
I should like to know whether an advisory committee has been appointed to the north Pacific fisheries commission, that is the Canadian section of it, and if so is it the intention of the government that members of this advisory committee will attend in Washington as observers and advisers in the discussions that are to commence on June 6, according to the Secretary of State for External Affairs?
Righl Hon. L. B. Pearson (Prime Minister):
The minister and his assistant are both absent from the house on important official business. I am sorry about that. I am afraid this question will have to be answered tomorrow, because I have not the answer myself.

Interim Supply SUPPLY
The house in committee oi supply, Mr. Lamoureux in the chair.



INTERIM SUPPLY

[Stage Direction]
That a sum not exceeding $1,430,259,968.45, being the aggregate of-
(a)	four twelfths of the total of the amounts of the items set forth in the main estimates for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1964, laid before the House of Commons at the present session of parliament, $1,282,100,552.00;
(b)	an additional five twelfths of the amount of loans, investments and advances item L20, $416,666.67;
(c)	an additional four twelfths of the amounts of fisheries item 45, northern affairs and national resources item 10, public works item 190 of the said estimates, $737,333.34;
(d)	an additional three twelfths of the amounts of atomic energy item 5, mines and technical surveys item 45, northern affairs and national resources item 5 of the said estimates, $307,025.00;
(e)	an additional two twelfths of the amounts
of agriculture item 100, external affairs item 78, mines and technical surveys item 80, public works items 20,	135 and 195 of the said estimates,
$2,376,416.67;
(f)	an additional one twelfth of the amounts of external affairs items 60 and 65, fisheries items 30 and 85, forestry items 15, 25 and 35, legislation items 40 and 45, mines and technical surveys items 30, 35 , 40, 50, 70, 100, 105, 125 and 130, national research council item 1, national revenue item 25, public works items 125 and 185, trade and commerce items 15, 20 and 28, transport item 222, of the said estimates, $11,626,316.77;
(g)	four twelfths of the total of the amounts of the items set forth in the supplementary estimates (A), for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 1964, laid before the House of Commons at the present session of parliament, $110,163,277.67;
(h)	an additional seven twelfths of the amounts of external affairs item 96a, loans, investments and advances item L63a, $15,665,416.67;
(i)	an additional five twelfths of the amounts of northern affairs and national resources item 110a, loans, investments and advances item L13a, $5,841,005.42;
(j)	an additional one twelfth of the amounts of fisheries item 30a, public works items 20a and 135a, transport item 222a, $1,025,958.34;
be granted to Her Majesty on account of the fiscal year ending March 31, 1964;
Provided the amounts hereby authorized to be paid and applied in respect to these items shall be deemed to include and not be in addition to the amounts authorized for such items by the special warrants issued by the Governor General pursuant to orders of the governor in council of April 1, 1963 (P.C. 1963-546) and of May 2, 1963 (P.C. 1963-702).
["It being six o'clock, the hour for private members' business has expired and the house will resume the business which was interrupted at five o'clock.", 'The house in committee of supply, Mr. Batten in the chair.']
Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: When we adjourned on Friday, I had the floor. I understand the Minister of Justice wishes to make a statement. I shall be glad to give way to him but I should like the privilege of speaking in the debate later, after he has concluded his remarks, if I may.


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Chairman, I am grateful to the hon. member for Burnaby-Coquitlam for allowing me to deal with the matters with which I should like to deal at the
moment. They have to do with certain questions that were raised by hon. members of the New Democratic party on Friday when, unfortunately, I could not be present in the house to hear what they had to say. I was attending a meeting of a subcommittee of cabinet and, for that reason, was unavoidably absent.
I can tell the house, and hon. members who have taken part in this debate that, while I was not here, certain of my colleagues brought to my attention the remarks that were made by these members, and I have also had an opportunity of reading Hansard very carefully. I need hardly say that I am concerned about some of the statements that were made, and I should like to deal with them in such a manner as will enable the house and members, I am sure, to realize that I have taken great care in what I am about to say. I should like, if I may, to divide my remarks into two parts. I should like to put on Hansard, first of all, the policy as I see it that has been declared in the house over the years by previous ministers and by a previous prime minister and then, if I may, I should like to deal in as detailed a manner as I can with the complaints that were made in this house.
I think one has to go, sir, to 1946 to find, not the first pronouncement but one of importance, and that is why I begin in that year. Ever since 1946, when the royal commission on espionage stressed the part played by Canadian communists in the Soviet espionage network exposed by Igor Gouzenko, the Canadian government has shown itself to be acutely aware of the communist threat to the internal security of Canada, particularly that posed by espionage.
On December 3, 1951, the then prime minister, Mr. St. Laurent, speaking to the house on the subject of personnel security in defence industry in general and of the undesirability of holding security appeal hearings in particular, declared, with tacit reference to the Russian intelligence service:
This organization acts with a ruthlessness, and a readiness to sacrifice its own followers, which we find it almost impossible to appreciate. It is only by careful, long continued and patient work that means have been established by our police forces of getting information about the operations of this organization. The organization would be more than ready to precipitate hearings involving their own followers, even if it meant the personal ruin of those individuals, if the hearings would lay bare the sources of information that the police have established.
The same awareness of the espionage threat and of the need for secrecy with respect to counter-espionage is apparent from statements made to this house on June 3, 1954

by the then minister of justice, Mr. Garson, who stated as follows:
We are all aware that the practice of espionage and counter-espionage, the contest between enemy nations to secure and to prevent the securing of intelligence involves the building up, as completely as possible, of a large mass of information; and oftentimes the answer in the affirmative or negative to some simple statement of fact may be the last item needed to complete the general pattern of, if I may use that figure of speech, the jig-saw puzzle which the intelligence department is trying to put together; and this last simple answer may finally determine what that whole pattern is.
Then there is this significant paragraph:
In counter-espionage work there is therefore only one safe policy to follow, and that is the policy of complete reticence about our counter-espionage and complete reticence in respect of the espionage against which we are trying to protect Canada.
The result of these two statements is in effect to say this, that it is very necessary for all our counter-intelligence activities that they be not publicized and they have to be secret in order to be effective. Then it was stated some time later that when a government department seeks information of a sensitive nature it calls upon the Royal Canadian Mounted Police to make an investigation or to make a report, and that investigation and that report is a factual one, and a factual one only. It is then up to the department concerned, either the head or the deputy head of the department, to determine what use he shall make of that information. I make that point, Mr. Chairman, because it has been the policy so far, as I understand it at least, that it is the department concerned that makes the decision upon the report that is received from the R.C.M.P.
In the earliest statements on this subject it was made clear to the house that the Royal Canadian Mounted Police had a fact finding role only and, indeed, that it was very reluctant even to go about securing the information, agreeing to do so only on the understanding that the government department submitting the request for screening would be responsible for determining whether the civil servant in question was to be entrusted with classified information. This, it appears to me, continued to be the policy until 1957 when the then minister of justice, Mr. Fulton, stated in the house the following:
We have absolutely no information to Indicate that we would be justified in relaxing the security precautions that we took with regard to subversive activities in this country.
He made known to the house at that time the following new information concerning the force's role in security screening, namely the requirements to make "an evaluation, if asked, as to the nature of any subversive organization to which the person concerned
Interim Supply
may be shown to have belonged" and to assess "the reliability of information". This was based on the fact that we all know that those who serve the state must be loyal. The loyalty of the civil servant is expected by the government. It is a condition precedent to his employment, and the responsibility for his loyalty rests upon the head of each department or agency.
Coming to investigations on university campuses, Mr. Chairman, these were first raised in 1961 and since, and the R.C.M.P. and the government was asked to cease these attempts to interfere in and, indeed, smear the student body. On that subject, on May 24, 1961 the then minister of justice, Mr. Fulton, had this to say:
Enquiries by the R.C.M.P. into all matters, including security, are carried out in privacy and information regarding them is never given except to persons properly entitled thereto. Any knowledge that such enquiries are being made, or any comments reaching the press, must therefore, on such occasions come from those involved in or contacted during the course of such enquiries. This, of course, completely refutes any suggestions of smear on the part of the R.C.M.P.
There are other statements which were made by the then minister of justice, Mr. Fulton, and I would just like to put one other on Hansard which I am sure has already been brought to the notice of hon. members:
I have never heard it said that it was an infraction of a person's rights if he was asked a question. This is a new concept to me. I endeavoured to indicate in the brief statement I made on opening the R.C.M.P. estimates that we do have a communist threat in Canada. I am not stating anything new when I say that. It is our responsibility, then, to keep a constant check on the size, extent and efficiency of the progress being made by the communists.
I have no doubt that there is concern, grave concern, not only on the part of hon. members in this house but also on the part of the security and intelligence branch of the R.C.M.P. about activities on university campuses. It is an avowed objective of the communists of Canada to infiltrate universities; to infiltrate a number of other organizations whose purposes, though proper, they could subvert to their own ends. As my predecessors in office have stated, I can say that I do not wish university campuses to be unduly subjected to security investigations. Nevertheless, I do not think it would be the right thing to grant them special exemption in this regard, because of what I have thus far stated.
If an investigation into subversion or espionage leads to a university campus, I do not think any hon. member in this house would suggest that the government should terminate the investigation at the boundaries of the campus. If this view is held, then any

Interim, Supply
other organization or association would have an equal right to expect similar treatment on this basis, and then the internal security of the country would become ludicrous.
I come now to the second part of my remarks and I would like to deal with the complaints and statements that were put on Hansard by hon. gentlemen last Friday. The hon. member for Winnipeg North raised the question concerning the surveillance of certain groups of people. Let me say to him that the R.C.M.P. are not interested in the organizations to which the hon. member seems to refer. However, as I stated earlier, the R.C.M.P. is interested in communist activity and when such organizations are penetrated the activities of the communists in them become of interest to the R.C.M.P. The hon. member may be interested in knowing that not infrequently officials of such organizations come to the R.C.M.P. for advice on the problems arising from communist penetration of their groups. Indeed-and I say this in all fairness-the group to which the hon. member belongs has had some experience in these matters, if I am to believe newspaper reports covering the expulsion of persons belonging to the "young socialist alliance" which, according to the press, is "a Trotskyist organization ... a heretic branch of the communist movement". A further point to which the hon. member for Winnipeg North referred is the matter of complaints and criticism in leading Canadian newspapers. That is true. On the other hand there are laudatory statements in newspapers about the work of the R.C.M.P. and if he were to weigh one against the other, I think the hon. member would come to the conclusion that there are far more in the latter class than in the former.
With reference to the question arising out of representations which have been made by the Canadian association of university teachers, I have received from that association a letter which I propose to answer, and I think the committee would agree with me that it would be improper for me to say anything on this subject at this time when I have not yet prepared a reply to this letter.


Mr. Peters:: Is that department as slow as it used to be?


Lionel Chevrier: No. The letter was brought to my attention over the week end and it was difficult, because of what I am doing now, to prepare the kind of reply which I think is necessary in this case. I propose at this time in view of all that has been said about security inquiries on university campuses to point out to this committee that it is not unknown for university authorities to appeal to the R.C.M.P. for advice on problems arising from communist activities on their respective

campuses. Many members of faculties in several universities have voiced fear of communist activities in universities. Indeed, police interest in communist activities in universities is often sparked by information gratuitously received.
I should like to correct an impression which has been made by the hon. member for Winnipeg North, that Commissioner Harvison's interview with the Canadian University Press was published only in Alberta. This interview was carried in nearly every university paper in Canada, and therefore no finger was being pointed at the University of Alberta.
The hon. member also refers to the use of the word "evaluated" by the commissioner in his reference to reports supplied to other government departments. Information is received by the force from many sources. In sending reports to departments it has been found prudent after many years of experience to evaluate the reliability of the sources as "usually reliable" or "of known" or as of "unknown reliability". This has been found necessary in order that the department concerned may properly assess the information the force supplies. May I point out that Commissioner Harvison and his predecessors have consistently objected to any attempt to have the force make decisions on behalf of departmental security authorities? I would like to make it clear that the R.C.M.P. does not make any decision for a department on whether or not an employee is suited for any particular responsibility. The hon. member was quite inaccurate, therefore, when he referred to a "kangaroo court" in the matter of R.C.M.P. handling of these matters.
In quoting from the University Press article the hon. member refers to NATO. The commissioner did not state, or even suggest, that Canada held all the military secrets of NATO. He did say, and quite rightly, that Canada holds some NATO secrets which it is the duty of Canada to protect properly.


David Orlikow: On a question of privilege. The minister is questioning a statement I made. I read the commissioner's statement into the record. The record did not say "all," but neither did it say "some". I think the minister should stick to the facts.


Lionel Chevrier: I do not think that is a question of privilege. It may well be a question of rebuttal in answer to what I am putting on record, if he feels I have put his position inaccurately. But I certainly did not intend to do that. I think, perhaps, the hon. member should have the right to reply.
May I go a step further and say that the commissioner's reply to Maclean's magazine was made with the authority of my predecessor, the former minister of justice. It

was made by special delivery to the editor of the magazine and Mr. Katz, on a Saturday morning and it was not released to the press until the following Monday. I might add that Mr. Katz' article was published without the commissioner being given an opportunity to comment on its contents, although I understand this was to have beeen done. Furthermore, the editor of Maclean's saw fit to make a reply to the commissioner's letter although he did not see fit to publish it. The commissioner did not, as the hon. member for Winnipeg North suggests, ignore nearly all the charges in the article-he referred specifically to a number of them. As for the case with regard to Huntington college, Sudbury, to which the article referred, I should like to put on record in Hansard the reply which was made to that letter by the former minister of justice, Mr. Fleming. I think it is useful that this should be put on record. The letter reads as follows:
The Reverend Edward T. Lute, B.A., B.D., M.A., Registrar and Associate Professor of Philosophy, Huntington College,
83 Larch Street Sudbury, Ontario.
Dear Sir:
I am replying to the letter of yourself and your colleagues, dated February 28, 1963, concerning the discussions of constable Wiebe, of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, with the Reverend Dr. J. W. E. Newbery. Inquiries have been made at the Sudbury detachment of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, on the instructions of the commissioner, to ascertain the facts.
I am advised that constable Wiebe called on the Reverend Dr. Newbery concerning three young men who, according to newspaper reports, were marching from the west coast to Berlin in some form of peace march. Newspaper reports indicated that this group formed the Vancouver-to-Berlin peace campaigners. Whether East or West Berlin was not specified.
According to local press reports Dr. Newbery had arranged for a press conference with these young men and, apparently, had some knowledge of them and, as one of them was reported to be a German national and a former cadet officer in the Hitler youth movement. Constable Wiebe approached Dr. Newbery, who at no time made any objection whatsoever to discussing the matter nor in any way indicated that he was displeased at being approached.
I am also advised that constable Wiebe deliberately endeavoured to make it clear to Dr. Newbery that he was in no way investigating any member of the faculty, or any member of the student body at Huntington college or Laurentian University. Constable Wiebe states that he made this point when he first met Dr. Newbery and, again, before he left. Constable Wiebe also states that he had a general discussion with Dr. Newbery on communism and its possible attempts to penetrate local organizations.
I do not know how Dr. Newbery received the impression that he himself was under investigation, for such was certainly not the case. Dr. Newbery had been reported in the Sudbury press as having arranged for a press interview for the young men referred to and, as a responsible citizen and educator, he seemed the appropriate man to
Interim Supply
approach. Apparently constable Wiebe went to Dr. Newbery quite openly and in good faith and I would be reluctant to think that we have arrived at a time when the police, in the performance of their duty, may not approach the responsible citizens of any community for assistance.
You expressed some concern regarding the report which would be filed by constable Wiebe in connection with his visit. I can advise you that constable Wiebe's enquiry was of a routine nature and as no information of any particular value to the police was received, no report was filed. It was not until your letter was received that the Sudbury detachment of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police was asked for a report in order that a reply could be made to you. Naturally this report is now a matter of record.
As you have raised the question regarding inquiries by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police into the political views and activities of members of university faculties and student bodies, I would point out that the force has no interest in the political views of any Canadian, on or off the university campus. Subversion is another matter.
I hope this letter will clarify the matter in your mind and as I note you have sent copies of your correspondence to other persons and organizations, you may wish to consider directing copies of my reply to the same people.
I am not aware whether Maclean's magazine received a copy of the letter from Huntington college and I am not aware that its contents have been made public in any other way.
Reference was also made to the organization known as the voice of women. Here I have to state, as advised by the commissioner, that no statement has ever been made by the R.C.M.P. that this is a subversive organization.
Regarding the case of the 74-year old widow, now living in Regina, the R.C.M.P. are unable to identify any person with the details as they have been presented. I am aware that the leader of the N.D.P. has referred to this case in the house, but always without mentioning the name. If he will supply me with the name of the lady concerned and the information he has, in full confidence, I will undertake to have the matter fully investigated. According to the leader of the N.D.P. this case has extended over a period of 20 years, and yet I am informed by the commissioner that R.C.M.P. headquarters have been unable to find any file which could be identified with the lady in question. I might add that all members concerned have been questioned and even ex-members who might have had some knowledge of such a case, but without result.
Mr. Speaker, I should now like to deal with the complaints made by the hon. member for Nanaimo-Cowichan-The Islands, particularly that one in which he referred to a lady member of his constituency who was allegedly terrified as a result of being asked by a sergeant of the R.C.M.P. to spy on her neighbours. As the hon. member did not see fit to

Interim Supply
supply me with the name of this woman-I am not complaining about that because I do not think that there was any obligation on his part to do so-it was difficult to identify the file, and it was with some difficulty that a file has been located which seems to be related to the case to which he refers. The information, however, is completely at variance with the story told by the hon. member.
He has stated that without warning this lady was interviewed by an officer of the R.C.M.P. special investigation branch who called upon her after having ascertained by telephone that she was alone in the house. During the interview he suggested that she should undertake to spy on her neighbours and that her husband should undertake to do precisely the same job among his fellow workers at the logging camp in which he was employed.
The facts as they have been presented to me by the commissioner of the R.C.M.P. are the following. The complainant, whose husband is employed in the logging camp and normally away from home all week at his job, was not approached without warning by the R.C.M.P. The first knowledge the police had of this case was when this lady made a complaint to the local police detachment at Nanaimo, B.C. I should like to make it clear that the complaint was not made to the security and intelligence branch. She stated that she and her husband were being bothered by telephone calls and letters from a local man urging them to attend communist meetings and that he was pushing the propaganda quite heavily. She then requested information on how to deal with the person for, as she stated, she was fed up with him. This complaint was made in November 1962, and is a matter of police record in writing by the constable on duty when it was made.
It was as a result of this complaint that she was later interviewed by a sergeant in the security and intelligence branch. The statement that the sergeant had selected this couple for interview because of their name is incorrect, as will be seen from the facts. As to her being terrified, as stated by the hon. member, this accusation seems hardly to fit the fact that she had no reluctance in going voluntarily to the police in the first instance. This was not an approach by the police to this woman or her husband. It was the result of a complaint made by the lady herself to the police. The hon. member leaves the suggestion that for some sinister reason the sergeant wished to interview the woman in the absence of her husband. My information, which has been obtained from a report received prior to the hon. member's remarks in the house, is that the sergeant advised this lady to discuss the whole matter with her

husband. There is a great deal more that I could say about this case but I do not wish to do anything which would further identify, or embarrass, this lady any more than she has already been embarrassed in the house. If the hon. member is in any doubt about this being the case to which he refers, I will be pleased to discuss it with him further in private.
There is the other case which the hon. member has raised and which to my mind I consider very serious. When the hon. member raised it he made no mention of the name of the young man who had applied for entry into the Royal Canadian Navy, and of course I asked, as I did in the case of the other complaints, the commissioner of the R.C.M.P. to look into this case also. The commissioner replied that he was unable to locate a file which would coincide with the complaint which was put on Hansard, because, of course, he did not have the name. I listened on Sunday, as I am sure did many hon. members, to the report on the radio where the name was given and I was able to listen to the circumstances surrounding this case. I have since communicated with the commissioner and asked for a full statement. All I can say is this, that if the facts in this case are as stated by the hon. member in this house, then I have no hesitation in saying that there has been an injustice and that that injustice should be corrected, perhaps by the reinstatement of the young man. That I am unable to say, because I am not alone in that decision; it would be a matter which I would have to discuss with my colleague, the Minister of National Defence. But I can assure the hon. member that I personally intend, because I think it is a serious case, to look into it and see that justice is done.
I want to conclude-


The Chairman:: Order. I am sorry I must interrupt the minister but his time has expired.


Some hon. Members:: Continue.


Lucien Lamoureux: Has the hon. minister
unanimous consent to continue?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Lionel Chevrier: I thank the committee, and I am almost at the end of my remarks. I want to conclude with two other matters. First, with reference to the R.C.M.P., I wish to say that my predecessors over a long period of time have paid tribute to this great body of officers, and I want to add my own tribute by saying that I do not think there is any police force in the world that can be compared with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. If it was not an outstanding police force, certainly eight of the ten provinces would not be using it to do their policing. In

Quebec the premier of that province sought the services, as the house knows, of a former R.C.M.P. officer, to head the provincial force and many municipalities across this country have agreements with the R.C.M.P. to police their cities and towns. In Canada we have been fortunate indeed thus far in protecting the security of the state from espionage.
If there is any doubt on this point, may I refer hon. members to what is happening in the United Kingdom. There it has been found necessary to set up two royal commissions over approximately a one year period in an effort to ascertain by what means and under what circumstances employees of that government have been suborned to a point where they become traitors to their country. This speaks highly for the R.C.M.P. in our country. When regard is had to the fact that hundreds of thousands of inquiries are made each year then, indeed, I would go further than that and say it is surprising that mistakes are made in such few cases. Where there is legitimate criticism, the force has admitted its mistakes. But the vast majority of these cases have been in order, and I believe there has been no fault to find with the force.
Mr. Chairman, the next point is with reference to the parliamentary committee or inquiry, the point raised by the hon. leader of the N.D.P., I believe on the first day of the session. He referred to it again on Friday. I replied that having regard to the circumstances as I saw them then I did not think that at this time a parliamentary inquiry was warranted. I did not give any reason because it was difficult on orders of the day to go into that. However, I say now that the operations of a security service must to a very great extent be carried out secretly and without undue publicity. If the modus operandi of the secret service were made the subject of public discussion, there is no doubt that the service would cease to be effective. Sources of information would dry up and effective countermeasures would be taken by foreign agents to defeat the security methods employed.
I would like to point out to the house, and in particular to the hon. members in that corner, that I have been in the Department of Justice for barely over a month. Surely they will agree with me that in that time it is impossible to give the kind of study to this matter that it requires? So, under the circumstances I think I should be allowed to go into this subject and discuss it when there is more time, to discuss it fully in all its ramifications. I am not closing the door on the suggestion made by the hon. member, although I feel that at this time it is not warranted. However, there might be some other method by which
Interim Supply
some of these complaints could be done away with, and I am willing to study the matter carefully in that light.
In the meantime, if there are any further complaints then I would welcome representations to me by, or on behalf of, the persons concerned, and I can assure the house every such complaint will be thoroughly investigated.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Mr. Chairman, I must say that I am disappointed at the statement which has just been made by the Minister of Justice. I had expected more, from him and from this government, on this question than we have witnessed this afternoon. Over the years I have listened to a number of ministers of justice trying to defend some of the indefensible actions of the security and intelligence branch of the R.C.M.P., but I doubt if I have listened to a weaker defence than I heard this afternoon.
This is not a question about the fine police force that we have in the R.C.M.P. We all acknowledge that it is one of the finest police forces in the world. It is not the R.C.M.P. which is on trial this afternoon. It is the Minister of Justice, the Department of Justice and the administration of justice in this country. That is what is on trial, and the minister has missed the point entirely. No one here is complaining about investigations into subversion, the seeking out of persons who are guilty or may be guilty of treason. No one is complaining about the attempt to prevent espionage and to arrest those who are responsible for espionage.
The security of this or any other democracy requires that there must be a security force, but what we are objecting to is that under the umbrella of seeking to root out subversion we find interference with free speech and an attempt to intimidate people who are exercising their democratic rights. We submit that we will not strengthen democracy in our country by destroying democracy. The very essence of democracy is that there shall be free expression of opinion, that men and women shall be allowed to hold whatever views they may have, provided they do not go to the length of advocating the overthrow of the government by violence.
Many years ago Voltaire wrote an opponent of his who was being prosecuted by the state for his outspoken views, and said:
I disagree with what you say. but I will fight to the death for your right to say it.
This is the very essence of democracy.
The first of the two points which the minister missed is that the S and I branch of the R.C.M.P. have demonstrated they are

Interim Supply
completely incapable of differentiating between subversion and non-conformity. Let me give you some illustrations. On April 1, 1961, a nuclear disarmament parade and meeting were held in the city of Regina. I participated in the meeting which was chaired by a professor of the university. Other professors and local clergymen were on the platform, and students from Regina college were present. About a week or 10 days later-and this is only one instance, I think it happened on several occasions-a man in Yorkton was interviewed by a member of the R.C.M.P. who told him his son had taken part in this meeting and that if he did not stop associating with this kind of meetings he would get into trouble.
At a public meeting I made reference to this unfortunate incident. The then minister of justice came out with a public statement and said no such thing had happened, that the man had not been interviewed, and that there had been no attempt to intimidate him or his son. I did not bother carrying on a controversy through the press, but I asked the attorney general of the province of Saskatchewan to send the minister a verbatim copy of a conversation between the attorney general and this father which I have here. Then I asked the minister to read it, and see if he still contended that this man had not been interviewed and that there was no attempt at intimidation.
The then minister of justice wrote to the attorney general under date of July 6, 1961, and said:
I must agree that the facts as outlined by you concerning the approach to a citizen of Yorkton by a member of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, are quite correct. I regret this very much, as the member of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police went beyond his responsibilities, although he undoubtedly acted in good faith in his attempt to advise the father of the individual concerned with respect to certain difficulties that might arise due to his son's connection with this movement.
The last paragraph of the letter says:
I want to repeat that I regret that the steps taken by the member of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police in this case, even though in good faith, went beyond his responsibilities, but I ask you to accept the fact that this was not in keeping with any desire on the part of this government, or of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, and that there was not the slightest desire or intention to interfere with the political freedom of any citizen of Canada.
That is in a letter to the attorney general of Saskatchewan. It is not a public statement. It was sent by the then minister, Mr. Fulton, and so far as the public are concerned the minister's statement still stands, that there was no interference, no interview, and no attempt to intimidate this particular man.

I mention that example because I was personally associated with it. But many cases of a similar nature have come to my attention, in which the Royal Canadian Mounted Police have acted far beyond their responsibilities. I do not blame the whole R.C.M.P. I am simply saying that the S and I branch have demonstrated they are ill trained and inefficient to carry on this kind of work.
They should either be taken out of the R.C.M.P. or different types of individuals should be trained to carry on the work of providing security for our country. We are not going to strengthen democracy in Canada by allowing students to be intimidated through their parents, just because they happen to associate with other students and university professors in advocating nuclear disarmament or anything else they have a right to advocate which does not run contrary to the laws and constitution of the country.
The second point which the minister has missed entirely is that individuals who are investigated and branded as being bad security risks have no right of appeal. The minister said there is nothing wrong with asking a person a question. Of course there is not, but how does the accused person ask questions? There is no one of whom he can ask questions. Let me take again an instance with which I am perfectly familiar.
I became interested in this case as far back as January, 1950, when I was approached by a young man whom I had known as a child, and whose family I had known all my adult life. He was being discharged from the Royal Canadian Air Force on the grounds that he was a bad security risk, and this after seven years in the air force. I happened to be coming down to Ottawa to attend a federal-provincial conference, so I went to see the minister of defence at that time, a very good friend of mine, Brooke Claxton. He said there was nothing he knew about this case, it had simply been reported to his department by the police that the man in question was a bad security risk. The present minister says the R.C.M.P. do not make decisions, for instance the decision to dispense with a man's service. Of course, they do not. They just decide he is a bad security risk.


Lionel Chevrier: No, they do not.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: The Department of Defence had no information other than the report from the Department of Justice, which originated with the R.C.M.P. This alarmed me because I did not want to take on the task of defending a man who was a bad security risk; but the man came to me again and assured me he never had any contact with the communist party. I met his family. I

talked to his priest. I talked to the superior and teachers of the Catholic school which he had attended. I talked to officers with whom he had been associated in the air force. I could find no evidence that anyone had ever heard of this man being connected with the communist party so I asked Mr. Coldwell to raise this matter in the House of Commons. I have here photostatic copies of pages 3363, 3364 and 3365 of Hansard, for June 8, 1950, where Mr. Coldwell raised this case. When Mr. Coldwell asked Mr. Claxton about this man's communist connections the facts began to come out. The minister said: Well, he went to a Catholic college in Saskatchewan and he was put out for being a communist.
Then the light began to dawn. I recalled the incident myself when back in the 30's there had been an order at a certain Catholic college that no political parties were to be formed on the campus. Three young men formed a C.C.F. youth group, or C.C.Y.M., and they were expelled. When this young man was getting the regular security checkup the R.C.M.P. came to the college and found that he had been expelled for having helped to form a C.C.Y.M. group on the campus. As soon as I drew to the attention of the reverend father, who was in charge of the school and who had been there throughout the entire incident, the interpretation that had been placed on it he sat down and wrote a letter, a photostatic copy of which I have here, to the minister of justice of that time saying that this was a complete misunderstanding, that a great injustice had been done and pleading with the government to reinstate this man in the R.C.A.F.
No reply was received. I came down to Ottawa and I saw the then minister of justice and the commissioner of the mounted police. The commissioner of the mounted police informed me that the R.C.M.P. do not make mistakes-"this man was a bad security risk and he is still a bad security risk".


Paul Theodore Hellyer: I wonder if the hon. gentleman would permit a question?


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Surely.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Did he say that the C.C.F. movement at this school was the same as the Canadian communist youth movement?


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Did I say so?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Yes. I just wondered about the initials that the hon. member used.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: If the hon. gentleman cannot listen intelligently to what is being said I do not know what he is doing on the treasury benches. I said that this young man belonged to the C.C.F. youth movement or C.C.Y.M.,
Interim Supply
the co-operative commonwealth youth movement which had nothing to do with the communist party, never had and is never likely to have.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: I am pleased to have that clarified.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: What is more, the hon. member need not try to draw a red herring and use up my time because I am not going to be intimidated by that sort of silly question.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: On a question of privilege, Mr. Chairman, there is no intention to intimidate. I merely wanted to get the facts straight so there would be no improper interpretation.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Will the hon. gentleman just sit down and keep his brain warm. When the present commissioner of the R.C.M.P. wrote a letter to Mr. Sidney Katz criticizing an article which appeared in Maclean's magazine, what did he say? Referring to this case he said that the man in question was an active member of the communist party. He said that during this period this man was an active member of the communist party. The man denied it, his family denied it, his church authorities denied it, the principal of the school he attended denied it, but the R.C.M.P. still say that he is an active member of the communist party.
Maybe the R.C.M.P. have information I have not got. I am quite prepared to admit that. What I am saying is that this man should have some right of appeal. Not only is he put out of the air force with a wife and family but when he gets a job his employer is informed inside of a month that this man is a bad security risk and he loses that job. That happened three times in a row. By this time he is left with an ulcer from worry and tension. When he gets out of the hospital he moves his family to another city and does door to door selling in order to make a living.
What I am saying is that we do not expect the R.C.M.P. can be infallible. No police force or security force can be infallible. What I am saying, and I have been saying it for years, is that in Canada we ought to do what they do in Great Britain where they have set up a judicial or quasi-judicial committee to which people can appeal, to which they can go with their counsel to be heard in order to clear their names.
I have on my desk here a score of cases of individuals who have applied for citizenship and have been told that they are bad security risks. I have cases of men who have gone to work for United States companies in this country and have been turned down, and it is hinted to them, "the report we get is that you are a bad security risk". There are cases here in the city of Ottawa of people

Interim Supply
who have been hired by the government and who find that they have been labelled as bad security risks. Maybe they are, but surely they should have the right to be heard. Surely it is the essence of democracy that they have the right to face their accusers and know by whom they are accused and with what they are charged. Neither the R.C.M.P. nor anybody else has a right to be prosecutor, judge and jury, the right to say that this man or this woman is a bad security risk and that closes the whole matter.
I have a case here of a man who came from Great Britain to live in the city of Regina. He went to apply for citizenship and was interviewed by a Corporal Young of the R.C.M.P. He was told: We know that you attend communist meetings, we know that you have communists come to your home and you visit their homes, and we know that you receive communist publications. When he begins to ask who these subversive people are it turns out that he is chairman of the local New Democratic party club, that he visits back and forth with people in that club and that he receives literature from the Canadian peace research institute. The crowning indignity was the suggestion made to him that it would be a lot easier for him to get his citizenship papers if he would agree to stay in the organization and report on the other people with whom he was associated.
Again I am quite prepared to concede that this man may have associations of which I do not know. But he should have a right to go before some impartial body, to be represented by counsel and to be told why he is not being given his citizenship papers, because he has not yet been given them. The minister simply says: Give me the names and I will look into the matter. What does he do when he gets names? He gets a report from the R.C.M.P. and, as Commissioner Wood said to me, "The R.C.M.P. do not make mistakes".
So we are dealing with the omniscient and omnipotent. What is the use of giving anybody names? The minister mentioned the case of the widow in Regina. I noticed that the R.C.M.P. commissioner in his letter to Mr. Katz described this story as a fabrication, just simply untrue. I am prepared to substantiate that story. This woman, described as a widow in Regina, is only a widow recently. She was not a widow during the entire period. I have known her and her late husband for the past 30 years. This woman is a Christian pacifist who periodically-I do not say every year but periodically, probably every two years-was visited by an R.C.M.P. officer and questioned as to her views, what books she reads and so on. This is because

she was listed during the war as a Christian pacifist. She has never made any secret of her Christian pacifism.
I do not happen to share the views of the pacifists, but I admire their courage and I certainly defend their right to be pacifists. When this woman talked to me about this, I offered again and again to take this matter up with the Minister of Justice. She said, "I do not want any trouble; I would just as soon put up with these calls and forget about
them.	" I only became really indignant on the last call of which I have any record when the officer said, "Your wife is a very good friend of the wife of the minister of agriculture for the province of Saskatchewan. Can you tell us whether or not he is a communist? I will come back tomorrow to see if you can give me some information." I said, "When he comes back, send him up to my office; I know the minister of agriculture much better than you do and I will give him all the information he wants." Needless to say, he did not appear.
The minister says, you give me this woman's name, and I will look into it. Is the R.C.M.P. so inefficient, are there so many people in Regina being investigated, that they cannot find this one case? Are they trying to tell me they have not been interviewing this woman? I will make a deal with the minister. I will not give him the name so this woman can be badgered, but if the minister will undertake to show me the file, then I will give him the name. Then, I can see the file and not just accept the word of the inscrutable, the imperturbable R.C.M.P.;
then,	I will be able to see this file and I will be prepared to discuss this case with the minister.
This woman is not complaining. She is over 70 years of age. They cannot bother her very much in the few years she has left. I simply use this case as an illustration of the way in which a peace-loving, orderly, law-abiding citizen has been badgered and bothered by the security and intelligence branch, or whatever branch it is of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, simply because she holds views that are not in conformity with those of the mass of the people in the community.
I should like, therefore, to suggest three things. I want to suggest, first of all, that I think the time has come to take the security and intelligence branch out of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police; to staff it with highly trained people who are skilled in looking into subversion, who know the difference between non-conformity and espionage, who know the difference between people who are ready to commit overt acts

of treason and people who merely have a point of view that is different from the point of view held by most of those in the vicinity.
The second suggestion I make is that the government give consideration to setting up in the government a tribunal or quasi-judicial committee to which individuals may come with their counsel and say, "I have been denied a job", or "I have been kicked out of the armed forces; or I have been refused citizenship on the grounds that I am a bad security risk. I have a right to see the evidence against me. I have a right to face my accusers. I have a right to be heard before my name is slurred and the names of my children are slurred; that is all I am asking." Surely, this is a reasonable request in a democracy.
The third suggestion I make is one which I proposed in a question on orders of the day. I think that there ought to be a select committee of this house look into the whole procedure for dealing with subversion and maintaining the security of this nation. It would probably have to meet behind closed doors part of the time. I admit there are difficulties in administering a security system. I admit that in the kind of world in which we live today, security is important. However, I contend that, equally important with maintaining security is the maintenance of those basic democratic institutions upon which this country is built. It will be of little value to destroy totalitarianism across the seas if in the process we incur totalitarianism here. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that in the long run liberty is indivisible. If I allow my neighbour's civil liberties to be encroached upon today, my liberties will be in danger tomorrow.


Lucien Lamoureux: Order; I am sorry but I have to inform the hon. member that his time has expired.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I am sure the hon. gentleman was just about to conclude his remarks, and we would like to hear his conclusion.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: I am simply contending that we, as members of this high parliament, and all of us who treasure democratic institutions, ought to be properly concerned about what appears to be a violation of the uses and purposes to which a security force has been put. I agree with the minister when he says he has only been in office a little over a month. I do not hold the minister entirely responsible, except that I do hold him responsible if he does not proceed to do something about this matter. The situation has been getting worse. There have been more and more violations. The representations that
Interim Supply
have been made by the Canadian university teachers association are something to which attention should have been paid long ago. The minister now has a responsibility; the ball is at his feet. I have enough faith in him and his associates to believe that they will not allow this sore to fester much longer, that they will take some steps to correct the situation. I can assure them that if they do not, then we in this group will continue to raise this matter again and again and again, because I can assure you that I will not allow some of these cases that have occurred to be repeated without making protests that will be heard from one end of the country to the other.


Mr. Nugent:: Since it is just about five o'clock, and I do not want to take up too much time of the committee, I wonder if I could call it five o'clock so I will be able to keep some continuity in my remarks?


John Whitney Pickersgill: I was just going to make a contrary suggestion. As hon. members know, we are in the month of June and I do not believe the government can very well be blamed for any delay in bringing supply before the house. I was wondering if there would be any possibility of acquiring unanimous consent to continue with a view to getting the resolution through by six o'clock. If that were done, we would be very glad to make the time available from nine to ten for private members' hour, in order to obtain continuity.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Dealing with the question raised by the minister, may I say that I doubt if the extra hour would get us through. I believe the hon. member for Comox-Alberni wants to raise a fairly pressing matter.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Perhaps the hon. gentleman did not realize that my suggestion would mean there would be two hours; there would be the hour from five to six, and the hour from eight to nine. This suggestion would not take away the private members' time, but it would give us continuity and might give us a better chance of getting this business through in time. However, I am in the hands of the committee.


Thomas Speakman Barnett: If the hon. member has a question which he wishes to raise, I have no objection to proceeding. However, I do not feel it should be understood that we conclude by nine o'clock if all the matters that need to be raised have not been considered.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Perhaps, in the circumstances, we should just follow the rules.


Lucien Lamoureux: It being five o'clock, it is my duty to leave the chair in order for the

Disabled Persons Act
house to proceed with private members' business, pursuant to section 3 of standing order 15.



Mr. Heber E. Smith (Simcoe North) moved:: That, in the opinion of this house, the government should give consideration to the advisability of enlarging the definition of a disabled person in the Disabled Persons Act, and the regulations pursuant thereto, to take into consideration such factors as the physical condition, the mental condition and the age of the applicant, and other factors which create a condition of permanent unemployability.
He said: Mr. Deputy Speaker, speaking for the first time in the twenty sixth parliament I should first like to congratulate you on your appointment as chairman of committees. I should also like through you to congratulate the Speaker on his appointment, and the deputy chairman of committees. I wish you well in your tenure of office.
My father taught me to believe that man's first public duty was to help those who were least able to help themselves. Nothing that 1 have learned since has changed my mind about that early teaching. Indeed, I now know it to be a basic tenet of Conservative philosophy. I think that government responsibility is no different; it too should be directed first to helping those who are least able to help themselves. Sometimes in the vision and glamour of all-embracing welfare schemes this rule and lesson is forgotten. The people I am going to talk about are not those who will benefit from a contributory pension scheme, because they do not earn enough; they are not the people who would benefit from the New Democratic party's "airy fairy" promises of full employment, even if such promises could be fulfilled, because they are unemployable.
Who are these people? I think that every hon. member who is interested in his constituents knows dozens of them; he talks to them almost every day he is in his riding. I am quite sure there are many thousands of them all across Canada. Mostly you will find them in the age group of 45 to 65. They are all permanently unemployable, usually through a combination of circumstances. Their age contributes to it; their physical condition in some form contributes to it; their lack of training and their lack of education, their inability to absorb further training or further education, contributes to it. Some of them, because of mental and psychological conditions, are unable to work in the complicated industrial society that we find today; they just will not fit into an assembly line. All of them are left behind.
Where are they now? You will find many of them on permanent relief rolls. Some of them you will find being kept in genteel and not so genteel poverty by their families. Some are drifting from job to job from day to day, doing little else than distorting our unemployment statistics. Hon. members might say, why not keep them on welfare? In my opinion welfare was never designed to meet a permanent condition. Welfare, as I understand it, is designed to tide people over temporary difficulties and temporary embarrassments. I do not think these people should have the humiliation of being permanent welfare wards, because the conditions which cause their unemployability are largely completely beyond the means of correction by themselves.
There are many things that could be done and many acts that could be changed. I have thought to bring forward this motion relating to the Disabled Persons Act because these people are disabled. I would like to read the present definition:
For the purpose of the act and these regulations, a person shall be deemed to be totally and permanently disabled when suffering from a major physiological, anatomical or psychological impairment verified by objective medical findings which is likely to continue indefinitely without substantial improvement and, as a result thereof, such a person is severely limited in activities pertaining to normal living.
I think that perhaps the main objection to the definition is the "normal living" part because, as now interpreted, "normal living" is considered to mean the ability to perform activities such as hygiene, feeding, dressing, walking, stair climbing, use of hands, speech, vision, hearing, writing, and reading. Unemployment is not a factor in reaching a decision. I think it is time we had a new definition that is broader and takes into consideration more of the activities of normal living. Particularly I refer to that of employment. Can they be gainfully employed? Is there anywhere they can be usefully and gainfully employed? For that reason I suggest that the four important factors which ought to be considered under this new definition would be, the physical condition of the person, the mental condition, the age and the permanent unemployability which flows from the first three conditions.
It will be pointed out, no doubt, that the provinces have to be consulted, that this is co-operative legislation I realize that. However, I do not think we will have any difficulty in getting co-operation from the provinces, because it was a Conservative government in Ontario in 1954, under the premiership of Leslie Frost, that took the lead in putting this legislation forward. In
[The Chairman.]

1963 another Conservative government in Ontario has taken a step which answers the problem of a great many of the people who would come within the categories I have mentioned. I refer to the recent changes by the Hon. Louis Cecile in the assistance to widows and unmarried women's regulation under the general welfare assistance act, which now provide that widows and unmarried women over the age of 60 who have no means are eligible for a pension. This covers a reasonable proportion of the people with whom I have come in contact.
There is another small point in relation to this regulation that I would like to touch upon generally, although it is not covered within the terms of my motion. I refer to those cases of married couples where one person, either the husband or the wife, is disabled and qualifies under the physical requirements of the act but is disqualified by the very low ceiling income that is permitted for people like that. One example that has come to my attention recently in the city in which I live is the case of a man who is permanently disabled. His drugs bill is $55 a month. He and his wife have two boys in the family. The wife is endeavouring to keep the home together, and she earns $45 a week. By reason of his earnings, the husband is disqualified for the D.P.A. pension and yet she is expected to do the impossible of keeping the home going and buying his drugs on $45 a week. In cases where one or the other spouse is disabled the ceiling should be lifted substantially so that the $65, or whatever the amount of the pension may be from time to time, could be used for the necessary home care of the disabled spouse.
Another case which came to my attention was that of a small farmer who lives in my own riding. He has ten or eleven children. His wife is incurably ill with a disease such as multiple sclerosis. He is not a man who makes a large income. He has to keep his oldest daughter at home to do the housework. Yet by reason of his modest earnings his wife's pension is only $14 a month. This means that although the eldest daughter has to stay home and work he has no means of paying her even a modest wage for her services. Although such circumstances as these are not covered by the terms of my motion, I should like earnestly to commend this thought to the government in the hope that some changes might be made in this regard also.


Mr. S. Perry Ryan (Spadina):: The resolution before the house on the motion of the hon. member for Simcoe North (Mr. Smith) seeks to enlarge the definition of a disabled
Disabled Persons Act
person in the Disabled Persons Act and the regulations pursuant thereto. I should like to compliment the hon. member upon the birth in his noggin of this very Liberal notion. I only wonder why he did not do something about it during the last six years while he was sitting on this side of the house.


Heber Edgar Smith: We did.


Sylvester Perry Ryan: It was a Liberal government which introduced the Disabled Persons Act. It was assented to on June 26,	1954,
and proclaimed in force as of January 1, 1955. It was, and is, another jewel in the long string of social welfare measures initiated for the benefit of our people by the Liberal party. It currently provides that 50 per cent of $65 monthly, or 50 per cent of the allowance paid by the province, whichever is the lesser, shall be contributed for each eligible recipient over 18 years old. Federal payments to the provinces are made monthly in arrears and not in advance. Thus, there is a sharing of cost between the federal and provincial governments under this joint scheme, but each province administers it for its own territory.
During the fiscal year ended March 31, 1961, there were 16,453 applications considered by the provinces. Of this number 6,398 were approved, 9,331 were declined and 724 were not completed. Federal contributions to the provinces and territories amounted to $16,385,819.54 in that year.
The hon. member, by his resolution, seeks to broaden the act under discussion so as to admit more of the 9,331 who were declined but it must be borne in mind that many of these were entitled to receive, and did receive, benefits under other joint federal-provincial schemes, particularly the Unemployment Assistance Act. This latter act came into effect only six months after the Disabled Persons Act and was intended, no doubt, to complement it. It has done so with good, but not complete, success, and as long as there is any loophole to be plugged, I for one along with the hon. member for Simcoe North, am all for plugging it.
I am not certain, however, that broadening the definition of the evaluation of invalidity is the answer. It may be more desirable to increase the benefits to those clearly entitled under the present definition, than to set a precedent by advancing the borderline to increase the number entitled.
All hon. members will bear in mind that presently the whole scheme of pensions for all categories is being reviewed in pursuance of declared Liberal policy, and the contents of the speech from the throne.

Disabled Persons Act
We know that there will shortly be introduced into this house and this country a comprehensive contributory portable pension plan. Contrary to what the hon. member has said, the government is studying not only survivor benefits but disability benefits. If agreement can be obtained with all the provinces there would seem to be no reason why this new comprehensive plan should not include disability benefits. Then all our social security insurance would be written into one new national policy which would be fair to all across the land, and the act under discussion would be repealed.
However, whether the act stands or is repealed, there is need for concern in this matter and I can assure the hon. member for Simcoe North that his motion with regard to extending the benefits on the basis of unemployability is being thoroughly studied by actuarial, social and medical experts in the Department of National Health and Welfare.
Mr. Speaker, there are many disability benefit programs in existence in different countries. There is, however, no uniformity of disability evaluation under such programs. In Canada the rule or definition for disability evaluation is contained in one subsection of the disabled persons regulations under the Disabled Persons Act (Office Consolidation, 1961). Section 2, subsection (2) thereof provides:
"For the purpose of the act and these regulations, a person shall be deemed to be totally and permanently disabled when suffering from a major physiological, anatomical or psychological impairment verified by objective medical findings which is likely to continue indefinitely without substantial improvement and, as a result thereof, such person is severely limited in activities pertaining to normal living."
With respect to administration, assessment of permanent and total disability under the Disabled Persons Act is carried out by joint federal-provincial medical review boards in each province, which are guided by the disability evaluation manual (first revision) September, 1957, prepared by the Department of National Health and Welfare. Chapter 11, interpretation of definitions, provides the official interpretation of the specific phrases in the definition. On pages 5, 6 and 7 an explanation is given of the key phrase, "as a result thereof, such person is severely limited in activities pertaining to normal living". The criteria to be followed in making an assessment of functional impairment in terms of activities of normal living are set forth. It is clear that the determination of disability is based upon loss of functional capacities imposed by the impairment. On page 8, the responsibility of the medical review boards

in referring all potential rehabilitation cases to a rehabilitation assessment team for appraisal and for beneficial therapy is stressed.
In addition to medical appraisal, a social report designed to provide medical review boards with a clear picture of the applicant in his normal circumstances is required. It provides evidence of the degree of actual handicap which the impairment imposes, and should also indicate the extent to which the applicant has overcome difficulties in the past. It helps to identify those persons who would be capable of helping themselves if they received special assistance.
Great Britain, New Zealand and Australia have various disability benefit schemes in effect. In each country there is some provision for benefit for loss of working capacity as a result of permanent disability.
The international social security association in its report on the activities of the working group on the problem of harmonizing the criteria for the evaluation of invalidity, published in its bulletin for October, November and December, 1962, recognizes several elements posed by the complex problem of invalidity evaluation. Interested hon. members will find in this report in the library that the working group, as a first step towards the harmonization of criteria for the evaluation of disability, has recommended certain principles and methods. The original intent of the Disabled Persons Act was to meet the needs of a group of severely disabled persons who, for mental or physical reasons, were unable to provide care for themselves and who presented problems not merely of unemployability but in respect to capacity for self-care. A sickness survey, undertaken some years before the act was passed, indicated that this group was a sizeable one and deserved the next priority in the progressive development of social security measures that was being undertaken by the Liberal government of the day.
It was specifically intended that the concept of employability would not enter as a basic consideration in this program. There were two or three important reasons for this. One was the extreme difficulty of defining employability. In everyone's experience there are persons who are able to surmount the most severe handicaps and achieve a livelihood through the maximum utilization of their remaining capabilities. A further factor was the determination of the government at the time to keep the concept of rehabilitation to the fore, and not to make allowances available to persons who should be encouraged to utilize to the full the rehabilitation services that were then available and which were being encouraged through the federal-provincial rehabilitation program. This was a

point that was emphasized by many of the best authorities in the field. To emphasize this point, the act itself provided that even those who were eligible under the permanent and total disability clause could be further assessed for rehabilitation or approved therapeutic measures. This provision was included to ensure a positive and constructive approach by encouraging rehabilitation and therapy whenever benefit was considered likely to be derived.
The Disabled Persons Act from the very outset provided a valuable measure for those eligible within its terms. All provinces took advantage of it, and for many years there was a steady increase in its coverage. It continues to the present time to perform a necessary and highly valuable role in Canada's social security program as indicated by the case load which in March, 1963 reached 50,600.
Even at the time that the Disabled Persons Act was being developed, discussions were proceeding between the federal government and the provinces for the development of a program which would help to meet the needs of those who could not qualify under the terms of the Disabled Persons Act. I am referring again to the Unemployment Assistance Act which, after discussions with the provinces in 1955, was enacted in 1956 retroactive to July 1955. Under this measure the federal government pays approximately one half the costs of assistance to residual groups of persons not aided under such special programs as those for the aged, the blind and the measure under particular consideration now, the Disabled Persons Act.
Mr. Speaker, there is not sufficient public knowledge of the role this legislation has played in the development of provincial programs of general assistance for the residual group in need, and also for special groups such as the type of person that is envisaged in this resolution. The way in which the provinces have developed their general assistance programs under this legislation has, of course, varied from province to province-indeed, this has been held to be one of the advantages of the legislation in that it has allowed the provinces to undertake measures which are suited to their particular needs. Many provinces assist all types of needy persons under roughly similar provisions, but in a majority of provinces some special attention has been given to some or all of the types of persons referred to in the resolution. It may be of interest to hon. members to have some specific examples of the measures that exist for the group referred to.
In Newfoundland, social assistance may be granted to persons who are temporarily or permanently unable to work because of
Disabled Persons Act
mental or physical incapacity. The program is administered by the province in a manner similar to disabled persons allowances, and the benefits under the program may be adjusted to take into account any dependants of a disabled breadwinner.
The province of Nova Scotia also provides, under part I of its social assistance act, for assistance to disabled persons between the ages of 18 and 65 who are not able to qualify for disabled persons allowances. It is my understanding that this benefit does not vary with family size, although there are other provisions in the act to provide for disabled fathers with dependant children; in the latter case, the provision of assistance is, of course, primarily related to the importance of providing support for the children.
In addition to the general provisions that it has for any persons who are unemployed and in need, the province of Quebec has a special program for persons who have been unemployed for more than 12 months, most of whom would be in the category under consideration. The benefits under this program are, as in the case of Newfoundland, related to the number of persons in the family, and the program is administered by the Quebec social allowances commission. It is also relevant to note that the province has developed a special program for widows and single women from 60 to 64 years of age, and undoubtedly in many cases assistance under this program because of need could be related to some form of disability.
There are two programs in Ontario for which federal sharing is now available and which are of interest in this discussion. Provision is made for assistance to families with dependant children in which the need is related to the unemployability of the father, including commitment to a mental or other institution. This program is administered by the department of public welfare through its regional offices throughout the province, and the benefits are paid on the basis of what is referred to as a needs test, under which the level of aid is related to the requirements of the family, as well as any other income that it might have. With effect from May 1, the province of Ontario has also developed a pension program for widows and single women from 60 to 64 years of age as mentioned by the hon. member for Simcoe North (Mr. Smith). This pension is paid on the basis of a means test and carries a maximum benefit of $65 per month, the same as that for disabled persons allowances.
Because of the similarity of their programs, I might refer to the provinces of Alberta and Manitoba together. These provinces have enacted legislation which provides for the payment of a social allowance to any person

Disabled Persons Act
who is unable to earn an income sufficient to pay for the basic necessities of himself and his dependants because of age or physical or mental ill health or incapacity that is likely to last for more than 90 days. Hon. members will note that this is the type of comprehensive coverage referred to in this resolution. The costs of these allowances are, as in the case of the programs referred to above, shared under the Unemployment Assistance Act and, Mr. Speaker, you may be interested to note that in March 1963 there were about 17,000 persons, including dependants, assisted under the social allowances program in Alberta. I believe that the program is now fully in effect in that province, but it is my understanding that the province of Manitoba has adopted a more gradual approach in the implementation of its program, preferring to proceed with it at a pace which will be in line with its fiscal and administrative capabilities.
There are two provinces to which I have not yet referred, British Columbia and Saskatchewan. In British Columbia social allowances are payable to any persons who are unemployed and in need, without making a distinction between employability and unemployability. The program is administered co-operatively by the province and its municipalities, and the benefits are related to the number of dependants in the recipient's family.
In Saskatchewan, assistance to the group referred to in the resolution would, I believe, be provided under two programs. In cases where there are dependant children in the family and the need could be related to the disability of the father, provision is made for assistance through the aid to dependant families program. Other persons in this group can be assisted through the municipal social aid program, and in both cases the amount of assistance paid is related to the requirements of the recipient and his family. It is my understanding that there is in Saskatchewan a good deal of provincial-municipal consultation concerning the provision of social aid, and that every effort is made to assure that the needs of recipients are adequately met.
Hon. members will note from this review that the framework within which assistance is provided varies from province to province, and that the coverage of existing programs is broader in some areas than in others. This, of course, is to be expected when the fiscal capabilities of the various parts of the country are borne in mind, and I should hasten to emphasize that the federal government stands ready under the Unemployment Assistance Act to share in any more broadly

based programs that the provinces may see fit to adopt for the disabled or other needy groups.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Batten):: I regret to interrupt the hon. member, but the time allotted to him has expired.


Mr. Bert Leboe (Cariboo):: 
Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, I too want to congratulate the hon. member for Simcoe North (Mr. Smith) for bringing in this resolution and bringing to the attention of the house the difficulties I am sure most hon. members have had with respect to the definition of total and permanent disability. At the same time I want to say that I have listened with interest to the remarks of the hon. member for Spadina (Mr. Ryan). It is really too bad he is not a member of the cabinet because we have got far more out of him about what the government is doing and intends to do in the field of social welfare than we have been able to get out of ministers sitting on the treasury benches. But, even if we have to get it from a backbencher, it is good to know that an overhaul of our social security legislation is coming and that all these various matters will be dealt with.
This is the first time I have realized that the proposed contributory portable pension scheme would include something for disabled persons at 18 years of age, because after all that is what the Disabled Persons Act provides-for assistance where it is needed to people at that age.
Mr. Speaker, we have been asked by the Minister of National Health and Welfare (Miss LaMarsh) to contain ourselves. It will be easier to do this, now that we have this backbench assurance that we are going to get some pretty extensive social security legislation during this session. The hon. member for Spadina (Mr. Ryan) made some references to the origins of the Disabled Persons Act. Some of us who were here when it was introduced can remember the circumstances quite well. There had been repeated representations across the years for legislation in this field, but like other such representations they had not been heeded until about 1953 when the prime minister of that day, Mr. St. Laurent, received a personal letter from a disabled individual, a letter couched in such terms that it made a personal appeal to him. The word we got was that he felt so concerned about the plight of incurables and disabled persons that he decided something ought to be done. As a result of that, the research done in the department came into play and we got the legislation.
Well, it was good to get it, and it is good to know that the number of people cited by the hon. member for Spadina are being assisted under that legislation. We agree with
Disabled Persons Act
him that we have to have a broad welfare policy. We have to look to the needs of our people under various categories and various headings, and we should not just try to solve the problem in the simplest way.
Our welfare policy has grown up like Topsy, and it is time we had a good look at it. The very review which the hon. member for Spadina has given, showing the differences that obtain across the country, makes it obvious we need a wholesale review of our social welfare policy. But it still stands as incontrovertible that if we are going to have -and I am glad we have-legislation providing allowances for disabled persons on the basis of disability, then the definition of that disability should be such as to provide allowances to persons who are readily recognized as disabled.
I am sure that my experience is not unique. I have had a good many instances where individuals, who to me were obviously disabled, have not been able to get the allowance because they could not meet the terms of the definition. The fact is they were still alive. They could move about a bit. I am going to read a few sentences from a letter about one case, and I am sure that other members can produce similar letters. I quote this in support of our contention that the definition as it stands under the Disabled Persons Act is far too narrow. The letter I have in my hand I will identify as one written to me by the chairman of the old age assistance and blind persons allowances board of Manitoba. That same board handles allowances under the Disabled Persons Act. The chairman wrote me about a case I had been taking up with him, and he said in part:
It seems quite apparent that his-
The reference, of course, is to the individual about whom I had written.
-heart condition is such that he is unable to work, but this condition would not prevent him from going about the regular routine involved in normal living if he does not try to do things too hurriedly.
That is not my description. I saw the man and I had written to the chairman of the board in Manitoba that just as a layman seeing the man I could see that he was disabled and unable to work. This is the chairman of the board admitting to me that because of the man's heart condition he is unable to work, but saying that this should not prevent him from going about the regular routine involved in normal living provided he does not do things too hurriedly. So he could not get the allowance.
The chairman went on to tell me in this letter that up until a certain date this individual had had a job. He had been running a dishwasher machine in a certain hospital

Disabled Persons Act
in Winnipeg but he had had to give up that job because of an operation he had to have on his stomach. The man already had difficulty with his legs, he already had a heart condition such that he could not work, and on top of that he had an operation on his stomach. I quote now from the letter:
After his operation he was too weak and short of breath to go back to this job. I was concerned about this case-
This is the chairman of the board writing to me.
-and discussed the details somewhat fully with members of the medical panel. I suggested to them that the loss of most of the stomach in the recent operation-
This is on top of the heart condition and so on.
[DOT]-might well make the applicant eligible. Their response to this was that while it might make him feel a sense of discomfort and weakness after eating it was not in effect disabling.
Here is a man over 60 years of age with a heart condition such that he cannot work, a stomach operation as a result of which most of his stomach is removed and he feels a sense of discomfort and weakness after eating, but still he does not qualify as a disabled person within the meaning of the act. This particular individual was at the time of this correspondence between the ages of 60 and 65. It was ascertained that his wife would shortly be 65 so the suggestion was made, of course, that at that time the wife could apply for and no doubt obtain old age assistance in the province of Manitoba, and that once she got old age assistance it would then be possible for her to apply for social assistance-


Heber Edgar Smith: Relief.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Yes-on the basis that her husband would be her dependant. Surely the hon. member for Spadina will agree with me that, though it is fine to say there are these various programs it does not exactly qualify as a definition of human dignity to say to a man in this position that the only way in which he can qualify for any kind of assistance at all is by waiting until his wife is 65 so she can get old age assistance, and on the basis of that get extra so-called relief for him.
This is one case. I admit it is the most glaring of the recent ones I have had occasion to deal with. I know we have all had cases like this one. But I submit that even if there is going to be the overhaul of social welfare legislation that the hon. member for Spadina has promised on behalf of the Liberal government it is still incumbent upon us to take another look at the definition of total and permanent disability in the Disabled Persons Act. Along with the hon. member for

Simcoe North (Mr. Smith), the hon. member for Cariboo (Mr. Leboe) and others I think that the definition should be liberalized so that the act will really provide allowances to persons who in ordinary terms are disabled.


Mr. W. H. McMillan (Welland):: Mr. Speaker, I was glad to hear the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Knowles) give a former prime minister, Mr. St. Laurent, credit for introducing the Disabled Persons Act. I recall that the bill was introduced in the house by the present Secretary of State for External Affairs (Mr. Martin) when he was minister of national health and welfare. Prior to that time the Canadian welfare council in 1954, I believe, submitted a brief to the government, probably in anticipation of such legislation, and they attempted to classify unemployed persons under three heads. Under the first one they included the group who were obviously permanently and totally disabled and had no prospects of any improvement or cure. These people in future, they thought, would obviously receive payments under the act.
The second group comprised those persons who had some handicap but were able to do some work and thus support themselves in whole or in part. The third group consisted of those people who fall between the extremes of the other two groups and about whom we are concerned here. They are those people who cannot be classed as totally and permanently disabled but are unable to work and make a living. In presenting his resolution today I suppose the hon. member for Simcoe North (Mr. Smith) is proposing to include some or all of this particular class of people under the act.
Last year the act was before the house for amendment and the purpose of the amendments was twofold. One purpose was to increase the maximum monthly allowance to $65 and the other was to increase the over-all earnings that a person might have. In the case of a single person the increase was $180 and in the case of a married person it was $360. I remember that at that time members of the house urged the minister to go a little further and enlarge the definition. He read the definition to us and I think that the definition, which has already been read by two members today, would cover the particular cases that the hon. member for Simcoe North has in mind. It would include those with a physical or mental disability or impairment.
So far as age is concerned, persons cannot qualify for a pension under this act at the present time unless they are 18 years of age. I could not conceive of any province wanting to share with the dominion and making of

payments to anyone 70 years of age and over because the federal government bears the full cost of old age security in this area.
I have been somewhat concerned over the years with the difficulty we have had in getting some of these people included under the act. I know that medical men are not aware of the different cases that might be included. We fill out a form for the applicant, and it is a rather extensive form. We send it in to a review board. The review board may send back for more information or may refer the case to a specialist. If there is any difference of opinion between the applicant's medical man and the review board, then the case is sent to an appeal board which is made up of a doctor appointed by the federal government and one appointed by the provincial government. If these two doctors do not agree, then another provincial medical man is appointed.
Since this is a cost-sharing program, the payments are made after a means test. The provincial government sends out an investigator to look into the financial situation of the applicant. I do know that these investigators inquire into other things as well. I recall that last year one hon. member stated that a particular patient, and he was a patient because he had been sick before making application, had incurable heart disease. He was declared to be permanently and totally disabled; yet because this particular investigator found he had walked out into the garden, his application was disallowed. I do not think this sort of thing should be permitted.


Mr. Rynard:: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could ask the hon. gentleman a question? What would he think of having the doctor certify this person as being totally disabled and then if the board is not willing to accept that certification another independent doctor might be asked for his opinion. I know the hon. gentleman has had a good deal of experience in this field over the years. My feeling is that the local family doctor knows the case better than any government official who is miles away and never sees the person concerned. If the board does not want to accept the decision of the family doctor, then let them call in an independent physician in the area to give his opinion. I believe this has been done over the years under the mental health act in the province of Ontario. I should like to get my hon. friend's views based on his experience over the years.


William Hector McMillan: I think that would be a good idea. I believe, in fact, they do that now in some cases. I do not believe a review board, sitting at some centre miles away and passing on reports could always make a very good judgment on whether or not a particular case should come under this act. I do know
Interim Supply
that in some cases the board has another local doctor in the area examine the patient.
(Translation):


Mr. J. A. Habel (Cochrane):: Mr. Speaker, I did not intend to participate in this debate but I should like to congratulate the hon. member for Simcoe North (Mr. Smith) for having introduced this motion to call the attention of the house on the urgency of amending the regulations governing assistance to the disabled.
In my riding as elsewhere, it often happens that people are deprived of the assistance to which they would be entitled because, after all, one does not have to be totally incapacitated to be entitled to the assistance given to the disabled. In fact, this legislation which was put on our statute books by a Liberal government, as the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Knowles) stated so rightly a moment ago, could be amended with the co-operation of the provincial governments so as to cover certain cases of invalids who are absolutely unable to get any work.
In the past, I have met constituents of mine who could get around by themselves in their own house but who could not do any kind of work. I am thinking especially of epileptics who could not work at all, not even in an hospital, for instance, if they wanted to do so. That is why I wonder if it is truly in the spirit of the law to require that such a person should try to find some work.
It seems to me that there should be some way of changing the law in that respect and, once more, I commend the member for Simcoe North for having called the attention of the house on that situation.
(Text):


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Batten):: It being six o'clock, the hour for private members' business has expired and the house will resume the business which was interrupted at five o'clock.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Batten in the chair.



[Stage Direction]
That a sum not exceeding $1,430,259,968.45, being the aggregate of-
(a)	four twelfths of the total of the amounts of the items set forth in the main estimates for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1964, laid before the House of Commons at the present session of parliament, $1,282,100,552.00;
(b)	an additional five twelfths of the amount of loans, investments and advances item L20, $416 -666.67;
[Stage Direction]
Interim Supply
(c)	an additional four twelfths of the amounts of fisheries item 45, northern affairs and national resources item 10, public works item 190 of the said estimates, $737,333.34;
(d)	an additional three twelfths of the amounts of atomic energy item 5, mines and technical surveys item 45, northern affairs and national resources item 5 of the said estimates, $307,025.00;
(e)	an additional two twelfths of the amounts of agriculture item 100, external affairs item 78, mines and technical surveys item 80, public works items 20, 135 and 195 of the said estimates, $2,376,416.67;
(f)	an additional one twelfth of the amounts of external affairs items 60 and 65, fisheries items 30 and 85, forestry items 15, 25 and 35, legislation items 40 and 45, mines and technical surveys items 30, 35 , 40, 50 , 70, 100, 105, 125 and 130, national research council item 1. national revenue item 25, public works items 125 and 185, trade and commerce items 15, 20 and 28, transport item 222, of the said estimates, $11,626,316.77;
(g)	four twelfths of the total of the amounts of the items set forth in the supplementary estimates (A), for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 1964, laid before the House of Commons at the present session of parliament, $110,163,277.67;
(h)	an additional seven twelfths of the amounts of external affairs item 96a, loans, investments and advances item L63a, $15,665,416.67;
(i)	an additional five twelfths of the amounts of northern affairs and national resources item 110a, loans, investments and advances item L13a, $5,841,005.42;
(j)	an additional one twelfth of the amounts of fisheries item 30a, public works items 20a and 135a, transport item 222a, $1,025,958.34;
be granted to Her Majesty on account of the fiscal year ending March 31, 1964;
Provided the amounts hereby authorized to be paid and applied in respect to these items shall be deemed to include and not be in addition to the amounts authorized for such items by the special warrants issued by the Governor General pursuant to orders of the governor in council of April 1, 1963 (P.C. 1963-546) and of May 2, 1963 (P.C. 1963-702).
At six o'clock the committee took recess.

AFTER RECESS

The committee resumed at 8 p.m.
Terence James (Terry) Nugent: Mr. Chairman, this is the first opportunity I have had to speak as a member of the opposition. It goes without saying that I am not happy to find our party sitting in this part of the house, but it does seem to me that there are certain compensations to being in the opposition. Being of Irish ancestry I have been much taken with that old saying, "Oh, I don't care who the government is; I'm agin 'em". Knowing the members of the treasury benches as I do, I feel there will be many opportunities when I will be called upon to criticize. If I am going to damn the government, I feel there will be times when I will be doing so most forcibly and I want to assure my hon. friends over there that in those circumstances I shall be doing so most happily.
[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Batten).]
Tonight, however, I intend to be quite gentle. I want to speak on a subject that is, I think, rather important, not just to my immediate area but because it reflects air policy and its importance throughout Canada in the approach that the air transport board and the government itself may take toward new air services. We have just had inaugurated from Edmonton to Calgary by Pacific Western Air Lines what they call an air bus service to Calgary. About three years ago the runways of the new international airport at Nisku started to be used. T.C.A. then changed their operation from the municipal airport at Edmonton to the Nisku airport and the only air service we have had connecting Calgary and Edmonton has been by T.C.A. via Nisku.
I pointed out in a speech in this house in 1960, and again in the 1960-61 session, that this means an extra half hour taxi ride out to Nisku, that if T.C.A. were not prepared to operate out of the municipal airport at Edmonton, someone else should be allowed to do so. I feel that connecting flights could reasonably operate from Calgary to Nisku, but for just intercity flights without connections across Canada the convenience of Edmonton and Calgary businessmen could only be met with a service that operated out of that airport to ours in the middle of the city. It has been three years now since the runways were opened at Nisku, and the main building will soon be completed. I believe there is a total investment in Nisku, when finished, of approximately $25 million. There is naturally much pressure on D.O.T., considering the size of that investment, to see that the facilities at Nisku are used to the fullest extent possible. There is also much pressure on the Department of Transport by various groups and people in the city of Edmonton who feel, for one reason or another, that our airport, located as it is in the heart of the city, is too dangerous to operate.
Because of this latter approach the Department of Transport not too long ago raised the safety standards at the Edmonton municipal airport to the extent that it was no longer permissible or possible for any air line to give service out of that airport by Viscount aircraft and, as I said, they changed to Nisku. I thought that this raise in the safety regulations was unnecessary, that there was already a sufficient safety factor and this further, more stringent regulation was not needed from a safety viewpoint and had the effect of depriving us of the benefits of good service. There has been a suggestion now that the Department of Transport is considering raising these safety regulations. I

would suggest that the only reason they would be doing this is to try and discourage commercial air service out of our downtown airport. I would suggest to the committee that the commercial service out of Edmonton consists in good part of the Edmonton-Calgary service and in part of the service to Grande Prairie, Peace River, etc., all of which, because of the very shortness of the flight time, can be added to immeasurably if they are served out of the municipal airport. The flight time from Nisku to Calgary is only 45 minutes. To get on a T.C.A. aircraft you are supposed to arrive 20 minutes early, with a 30 minutes taxi trip to get out there. That is 50 minutes before flight time. Then there is further time at the other end waiting for your bags, so it comes to about two hours in all for the trip.
It may be said that T.C.A. lose a considerable number of their passengers to not only the private automobile but also the C.P.R. Dayliner which gives very good service running from the centre of town to the centre of town. I am sure the Department of Transport in their ideas of further improving safety regulations at the municipal airport are going to have the blessings, if not the connivance, of T.C.A., which I can understand. They feel the air bus service of P.W.A. is going to take away most of their business. I merely suggest to the Minister of Transport that really P.W.A., with their air bus service, will be able to operate and make a profit out of just that business that T.C.A. would never have gotten anyway, because it was too inconvenient operating out of Nisku. With the air bus service there are no reservations. A man merely goes out to the airport a few minutes before plane time; he gets on board with his bag in his hand, is sold a ticket on the way down, and when he gets off there is no waiting for his baggage. He saves at least an hour. The only way T.C.A. could compete with this sort of competition would be to inaugurate such a service.
I would like the Minister of Transport to take a look, if he would be good enough, at my speeches in this house on this problem. They are to be found, for 1960 at page 4469 of Hansard, and for the 1960-61 session at page 5112 of Hansard, where I asked T.C.A. for this sort of service, where I pointed out to the Minister of Transport these problems, and where I pointed out that the first result of this new, expensive airport at Nisku was a poor air service for Edmonton. I can assure the minister that, while I am always ready, willing and able to give the government a good deal of abuse when I think they need it, and
Interim Supply
I can foresee considerable criticism descending on the government's head, because there is such a large investment at Nisku which has not been used as much as the planners had hoped at the time it was started, if he will resist the efforts of those who would like to divert everything to Nisku to make it look better, he will never hear a complaint out of me that the costs are too high at Nisku. We in the city of Edmonton appreciate very much the fact that jets, with their noise problem, are not operating right out of the city, that we do not have in Edmonton the sort of complaints that cause so much trouble at Dorval. We also appreciate the extra safety factor of these very high speed aircraft being out in the country where the maximum safety regulations can be observed. But there is such a thing as being too safe and too cautious. Air regulations are already so much more stringent and our traffic is now so much more safe that to increase it further would have the effect of entering the realm of unreality. I suggest to the minister before the government makes the safety regulations even more stringent than they are it should envisage precisely what this would mean to air traffic compared with the situation which exists for railway, motor vehicle, truck and bus traffic in our cities. I suggest that if these other forms of transport had to operate up to the safety standards which now prevail in connection with Edmonton municipal airport it would be impossible for 90 per cent of the traffic now on our streets and railways to run at all. Heavy truck traffic would not be allowed to enter our cities, and all level crossings would have to be abolished if trains were to continue to run.
I am aware that air crashes are spectacular and that they are given a great deal of publicity. But I am also aware of the fearful toll on our highways and the rather large number of train-car collisions. Obviously, in this age of fast travel people have become accustomed to taking a certain amount of risk and will accept a certain amount of risk in keeping with the realities of modern transport necessities. I am suggesting that a fair comparison of the handicaps under which our air transport now has to operate in the name of safety as compared with those imposed on other fields of transport would show that flying has already been hobbled with ten times the strictness known to any comparable type of transport. I am suggesting that for three years the businessmen of Edmonton and Calgary have had to put up with an air service much decreased in usefulness. They had lost much of the value they might have been getting out of it long before we began spending these huge sums of money at Nisku. The arguments in favour of the development

Interim Supply
at Niksu will not be strengthened by imposing regulations which make it impossible for aircraft to operate out of the municipal airport.
I pointed out in earlier speeches I have made on this subject that judging from today's use of aircraft and today's conditions the continued use of this airport is now amply justified. The site is a most convenient one and the city of Edmonton is very lucky to have it now. I suggest the minister reflect a little on the type of aircraft which is now being developed. I suggest he use a little imagination to envisage the direction aircraft design is taking. He might give consideration to the fact that short run aircraft and vertical take-off aircraft are now being developed and that within a few years the so-called dangerous aspects of travel to and from municipal airports may have been removed as a result of changes in the type of aircraft in operation. I cannot see how this or any other government could justify taking steps which might have the effect of closing down this airport before we have really had a chance to enjoy the benefits of it.
One reason why I was anxious to make this speech tonight is that I want no suggestion that the government is sticking its neck out with regard to the safety factor. I try to get re-elected from time to time in the city of Edmonton. I am aware of some of the feeling on this subject and I want to give notice of my views in this regard as publicly as I can. I think the safety factor is more than sufficiently high. I will go further, if it will help give the minister a little courage, and say that even if there had been a major crash- and there has not-I would still hold the same point of view. I want to assure the minister he will have my backing if he will stiffen the backbone of the government with regard to this one aspect which might appear to him to be open to criticism.
I want to emphasize the importance of this airport to communications with the north. This balance of convenience affects the people of Grande Prairie and Peace River as well as those of Edmonton and Calgary. I am sure the people who live in northern Alberta are anxious to save that amount of time which makes it possible for a businessman to get a day's work done on a trip into town. I hope the minister will do me the honour of reading my previous speeches on this subject; that he will look at the reasons for possible criticism and make a realistic appraisal of these air regulations. I say the city of Edmonton now has the highest standard of air safety in the country and that any suggestion of changing it to a still higher standard is merely a way of depriving us of the air service for which we have waited for so

long. Next, I say that Trans-Canada Air Lines must have a hand in any such suggestion and that T.C.A. really cannot say Pacific Western Air Lines is running any competition to them because, as I have pointed out, P.W.A. is flying customers that T.C.A. would not have a chance to get, anyway.
I hope the minister will give me notice of any new developments in connection with Nisku airport. While I can be harsh with the minister at times, I must be fair to him with regard to his policy as to this new international airport. This airport was planned, but construction had not been started when the Conservative government came to office in 1957. Construction was carried on as was originally intended and it can fairly be said that whether this project was wise or not, and whether it has cost too much or not, criticism can hardly be levelled by one party against another. If the total investment does not now appear to be justified by the amount of air traffic I submit that it is impossible to judge very accurately in advance the rate at which air traffic is likely to grow and what demands may be made on the airport in the future. The optimism felt at the time this airport was being planned and built may yet be justified by the demand for services. So I ask the minister to bear up under any suggestion that the cost has been too high, and I pledge him my full support in this regard. I suggest we are in the same position with regard to Edmonton municipal airport. If the hon. gentleman would like to keep our relations on this friendly and co-operative basis I hope he will give my plea in this regard some attention. However, if these regulations are changed again, resulting in the loss of the air service we now have, he will wish he had never been born.
(Translation):


Maurice Côté: Mr. Chairman, for nearly two hours last Friday, we of the Social Credit party refrained from speaking in the house so as not to delay approval of interim supply which total over $1,400 million, because we feel that it is urgent to settle the administrative problems of Canada.
However, since members of the other parties keep on getting up, and since there will obviously be other speakers, I do not see why we should not exercise our right of speech. The constructive remarks I intend to make will be as brief as possible because the government is faced with many difficult problems. I hope it will face up to the situation but I doubt it very much, unfortunately. For instance, we know that Canadians are among the most heavily taxed people in the

world, since they hold the fourteenth rank with 24.8 per cent of their income going to taxation. On the other hand, everybody knows that the government has been served with an ultimatum by the premier of the province of Quebec concerning the recovery of part of the taxation fields which were taken over by former Liberal administrations.
On May 21, 1963, Le Devoir, a newspaper which is highly sympathetic to the Liberal party, published the following article:
This first month has been most deceiving as far as taxation is concerned. Not only does Ottawa seem to have forgotten Mr. Jean Lesage's ultimatum but the speech from the throne provides for several projects which indicate that the basic attitude of the federal wing of the Liberal party has not changed much since 1957. The language used is more courteous, and the government takes a softer attitude towards the provinces. The federal Liberals have just finished a term on the opposition benches and that has just about given them time to lose their former arrogance.
The present government should meditate this harsh statement because they should not forget that in 1955, under a Liberal administration, there were 600,000 unemployed in Canada, according to Hansard of that time. If our friends opposite could not settle this tragic problem when the times were good, how will they be able to do so when more and more machines are replacing workers in big industries? That is the question which is in the minds of three million underfed Canadians at this time.
I have nothing but admiration for the Minister of Finance (Mr. Gordon), one of the greatest accountants in Canada, a man who knows perfectly how to administer a budget.
But if the Liberal government stays in the old beaten track, that is if it keeps repeating the same mistakes of the old traditional economy, it will not be able to get out of the blind alley of unemployment, which is the great plague of modern times, and it will but maintain this system of inflation that has brought us nothing but depreciation, crises, bankruptcies, economic slumps, wars, debts, misery and insecurity.
What I find most surprising, Mr. Chairman, it is that the Liberals should claim to be modern men because they like modern weapons, but in matters of political economy, they would rather stand up for the old financial regime of inflation which has caused so many upheavals in our country, judging by their recent political campaign. As it happened, during that election campaign, a very good friend of the Liberal party, the president of the Montreal stock exchange, came to Chicoutimi and stated that "with Social Credit, there would be inflation and 28902-5-39
Interim Supply
depreciation of all our stocks and real estate". It is obvious that his efforts were useless because I was re-elected with the same percentage as on June 18, 1962. That man did not forget his own interests while he was making his publicity for the Liberals, because he was advising his audience to "save, to refrain from consuming more and to invest in business in order to increase production". He did not have enough experience to know that we do not lack goods in Canada, but money to buy the goods produced.
The 700,000 Canadian families who receive an average $35 a week either from the unemployment insurance fund or from social welfare agencies know from their own experience and suffering that the fault is not with our production machinery but with our monetary system of debt money, of depreciated money and devaluated dollar, which has meant a loss by inflation of more than 60 per cent in the value of our Canadian currency since 1935, under Liberal and Conservative governments.
That is why, when I spoke to the Brazilian parliament, during the fifty first interparliamentary conference, which took place in Brasilia in October 1962, I stated before the assembled parliamentarians from every part of the world than the greatest problem today is to feed the hungry and to give security, together with liberty, to all citizens of the globe, and I added that we should revise our position in the financial field in order to allow every human being to benefit from the plentiful resources of man's earth.
Mr. Chairman, since the 1929 depression, the banking system is engaged in an unreversible process and, in spite of the entreaties of the opponents of Social Credit; the bank reform, a socialization or a planning for debt free credit, through the Bank of Canada, will soon have to take place in order to put a stop to this dying system of financial chaos. The issue of money and credit is a sovereign prerogative and should be under the sole control of a government agency, like the Bank of Canada. In the present economic situation, the government will be unable to manage the country on the basis of its people's needs if it does not adopt a bold financial policy, which the Social Credit has been advocating for 40 years and which has been endorsed by the most prominent economists in the world.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Mr. Cole (Chicoutimi):: Maybe not by yours but by the most famous.

Interim Supply
Lately, in the Paris-Match magazine, one could read a serious warning, from the great French economist, Jacques Rueff, the general inspector of finances in France, who said this:
All the countries of the free world are threatened by inflation because the present monetary system is based on an heresy-
And further on:
-the world is going towards a crisis as serious as the one which occured in 1929. A vast international monetary agreement is needed to prevent it all.
This is, Mr. Chairman, a problem much more urgent than that of the nuclear arms.
I want to stress before the house that the Social Crediters are the staunchest supporters of independence, since they favor independence not only for Quebeckers but for all Canadians, because they want and desire freedom for one and all, but that freedom cannot be obtained if we are not freed from financial powers. Here is the first freedom to conquer, a freedom without which all the others would be meaningless.
Before closing, I must ask the Liberal government what concrete steps it intends to take in the immediate future for the 35,000 poverty-stricken persons in the Saguenay area. The situation is so serious in our region that this task cannot be delayed.
What does the Liberal government intend to do about the crown corporations which have purposely practised segregation towards my French Canadian fellow citizens?
For instance, only three of the 16 directors of the Industrial Development Bank are French Canadians; at the Export Credit Insurance Corporation, there is only one French Canadian out of eight directors; Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation has only one French Canadian director on a board of 10. As far as administrative positions are concerned, the situation is the same at the Bank of Canada and in all crown corporations.
What about the employees of those crown corporations? The government must ensure that justice is done in all those fields because French Canadians will no longer accept being treated as second class citizens. According to a Liberal minister of the Quebec cabinet, Hon. Rene Levesque, in five years from now it will be too late.
To conclude, Mr. Chairman, between a system of private capital or economic liberalism which is supported by the old parties and which has led to the present economic chaos, and state capitalism, a system of centralization for the benefit of a welfare state which is advocated by the socialists, there is only one other way out, that is popular capitalism, a middle-term formula

which gives every citizen the right of ownership, freedom and security by means of a financial system built upon a scientific basis, in accordance with modern statistical data in these days of mechanization and automation. Popular capitalism as conceived by the Social Credit party is a happy combination which puts the human person at the very heart of creation so that each individual may realize self-achievement according to his talents.
That is what the Social Credit party recommends so that each and every Canadian may have work and food besides the intellectual and spiritual fare which every human being needs.
(Text):


Thomas Speakman Barnett: Mr. Chairman, I am always rather inclined to feel sorry for the Minister of Finance whenever a debate develops on an interim supply motion. He usually finds himself in the position of sitting listening to matters concerning the sins of commission and omission of all his colleagues. However, I suppose under the principle of cabinet responsibility that is just one of the crosses he has to bear.
I am glad to see the Secretary of State sitting close to him tonight because I think that his most laudable desire to get this motion disposed of fairly quickly could be hastened if he would assure us that we could have a proper statement on the government's intention and policy with regard to a matter I want to raise. I might add I would like to see both the Minister of Fisheries and the Secretary of State for External Affairs present tonight to give a full statement on government policy with regard to the whole matter of the north Pacific fisheries. I do not see them in their places at the moment, but perhaps the Secretary of State could ensure that we do have, if not from one of those ministers at least from someone else, a proper statement of government policy on this matter.
There are many matters of importance which I could rise to deal with at this time, but I have selected this particular matter because I feel it is in the nature of an emergency subject, and also because of the fact that I am rather disturbed and distressed by the somewhat cavalier manner in which this whole question appears to have been swept under the rug by the new administration.
Hon. members who were here during the last parliament will recall that the whole subject matter of the international north Pacific fisheries commission and some recommendations it made to the Canadian government were a subject of interest and concern during the proceedings of that parliament, and that quite a number of questions were

addressed to the minister of fisheries as to what the intention of the then government were in this connection. While the former minister was perhaps a bit evasive in some of the answers he gave, nevertheless I think it is fair to say the house could get from his answers the distinct impression that, before any decision was made with respect to Canada's position on the recommendations made by the commission, there would be an opportunity for a full review of this matter before the standing committee on marine and fisheries.
Of course, as we all know, parliament was dissolved before anything of that sort took place. However, I am sure it would not have escaped the attention of some of these who now sit on the treasury benches that the then prime minister, during the period when parliament was dissolved, intimated in a statement he made on the Pacific coast that a decision on this matter of great importance to us in British Columbia would not be made until parliament had been reconvened and there was an opportunity for a full study of the whole question.
However, as the house is aware, or perhaps I should say as the house is not aware, the present government has made a decision in respect to this matter. I say that perhaps the house is not aware, because to my knowledge the only mention of this whole question and the action of the government upon it has been made outside the house. The new Minister of Fisheries has not even had the courtesy to stand up under motions, after parliament met, and make an announcement of what the decision of the government has been, although in reply to questions which were addressed to him later he has indicated the government has made a decision on this matter.
Mr. Chairman, I was a member of the house when we had a former Liberal minister of fisheries, and I think it is fair to say that discussion of fishery matters during that particular period was very largely non-partisan in its nature. If I might offer my own explanation as to why that was largely the case, I feel it was because for the most part hon. members of the house, who at that time had a particular interest and concern in fishery matters, while we might not always have been in complete agreement with the minister, nevertheless felt we had an adequate and full opportunity of looking into all fishery matters as they arose from time to time, and of participating in the discussions leading up to policy that was developed. I raise this aspect of the question because I feel it would be a sad thing indeed if this new parliament should get off com-28902-5-39J
Interim Supply
pletely on the wrong foot so far as discussion of fishery matters is concerned.
I want to report to the house that during the time since I first became a member of it-and as hon. members realize I have not been a member continuously since 1953- during the period of those 10 years I have been trying to devote some of my attention to matters relating to the fisheries on the Pacific coast, and I have never known the fishermen of British Columbia to be so deeply disturbed and concerned as they are now about the matters involved in this international north Pacific fisheries commission. Every fishermen's organization in British Columbia has taken a position opposed to the action which the government apparently took on May 8. The united fishermen and allied workers union, the Pacific trollers association, the native brotherhood, the native Indian fishermen's organization and the fishing vessel owners association are all opposed. I am fully aware of the fact that spokesmen for the fish companies have agreed with the action taken by the government. However, when there is such a wide gulf in opinion on such a basic matter I suggest that the Minister of Fisheries and the government were certainly ill advised indeed to come to the decision they did on May 8, particularly when parliament was so shortly to convene and when it would have been possible, I am sure, to have the full co-operation of all parties in the house in setting up immediately the marine and fisheries committee to look into this whole question.
This question may appear to some members of the house to be a matter of relatively minor concern, and in order to put it into perspective I should like to express its importance in these terms. If words were to come to this chamber that the whole of the three prairie provinces of Canada were in imminent danger of becoming a vast desert, I am sure that would be considered by members of the house to be a matter of urgent significance no matter from what part of Canada members might come. I suggest to the house that the north Pacific basin occupies an area considerably larger than the three prairie provinces and that its resources, which we share, of course, with some of the adjacent nations, in the long run may very well be more important and significant, more rich and varied and more capable of helping to sustain a high standard of living among the peoples of the world than the total resources of the three prairie provinces. Therefore I suggest that this is a most serious and important matter and the decisions that may be taken at this time may set a course which will affect not only the people of this generation but generations of Canadians yet to come.

Interim Supply
The history of the matter is that 10 years ago the Canadian government entered into a convention with the United States of America and Japan for a treaty which would conserve and develop, according to its stated intention, the fishery resources of the north Pacific. That treaty set out some basic principles of agreement. It also set out some temporary arrangements which would apply during a certain period until our fishery scientists had had an opportunity of surveying the then still largely unknown resources of this vast fishery.
This treaty is subject to notice by any one of the contracting parties that a year from the date on which notice is given it will expire. I understand that the earliest date that such a notice can be given by any one of the parties is June 12 of this year. In reply to a question I asked the other day of the Secretary of State for External Affairs he indicated that preliminary negotiations are starting almost immediately in Washington in respect of this treaty. He did not indicate whether any one of the contracting parties had given any indication that it intended to serve notice of the termination of the treaty or, indeed, had served any notice whether or not it desired any formal renegotiation of the terms of the treaty. What he did indicate in his reply to me was that there was to be some preliminary discussion of a continuation of the abstention principle in the treaty.
This matter came to the fore last fall, of course, because of the recommendation of the international north Pacific fisheries commission when they recommended to the contracting parties to the treaty that there should be a watering down of the original abstention principle provided in the annex to the treaty. I am fully aware of the fact that the way the treaty is drafted and the way the annex is set out it is quite within the technical prerogative of the government to alter the basis of the abstentions, to which Japan agreed, without formal ratification by parliament. But I suggest to the committee that it is contrary to the whole spirit and approach with regard to what I have felt is the proper way to deal with fisheries matters in this house for the government to have taken action in the way it did.
I find it difficult to understand that the present Minister of Fisheries, even though he comes from one of the eastern maritime provinces, should have been so unaware of the significance of this matter and of the interest and concern which have been displayed in British Columbia, particularly in view of the questions which some of his fellow Liberal members were asking during the last session of the last parliament. Certainly implicit in those questions was a desire on the

part of the Liberal members from British Columbia that this matter should go before the marine and fisheries committee at an early date. On November 23, 1962 the hon. member for Vancouver South put this supplementary question to the then minister of fisheries:
Would the minister assure the house that before the government accedes to this recommendation we shall have an opportunity to debate the possibly tragic consequences?
I probably do not need to remind those on the treasury benches that the hon. member for Vancouver South is now Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources, and it is rather surprising to me that he did not take the trouble to inform his colleague, the new Minister of Fisheries from New Brunswick, that it would be very advisable to convene the marine and fisheries committee in this connection.
I tried to point out a parallel of just how tragic these consequences could be. I am not saying that at the moment we are in imminent danger of exhausting the fishery resources of the north Pacific, but I do know enough of the history of my part of the world to know that the original development of white settlement on the west coast of Vancouver island was based upon the sea otter trade. The sea otter is something I have never seen and no British Columbians see any more because it is extinct. Then there was the fur seal trade. They became almost extinct until conservation measures were taken. A little later there was the problem with respect to whales. It was found necessary to bring about some sort of international arrangement for the conservation of whaling in the north Pacific. So it has been with our salmon and our halibut.
Tragic consequences can overtake us rather quickly, as has been proven more than once by actual events in the history of the west coast exploitation of the resources of the Pacific.
I am not going to refer to all the questions that were asked, but I should like to draw attention to the fact that the hon. member for Coast-Capilano, who I understand is fairly close now to the ear of the Prime Minister- at least for the time being when he is not talking about selling out crown corporations -asked the then minister of fisheries as to whether or not this matter was going to receive the attention of the marine and fisheries committee. As late as January 30, he was asking the minister if we could have this matter before the marine and fisheries committee.
I should like to contrast that with the answer I was given the other day, on May

29, when I addressed a question to the Minister of Fisheries. He said this, as reported on page 416 of Hansard:
-I wish to state that when the government decides to convene the standing committee on marine and fisheries, the house will be advised accordingly.
Now, if I have ever received the ministerial brush-off during my time in this house, that was it. I am sorry that the minister is not here tonight. I do hope that some of his colleagues will give him a good jacking up about the manner in which he is apparently approaching this whole subject.
I do not know that I need to say a great deal more. Certainly, I cannot attempt, nor do I think it is necessary, to launch into a discussion of the ramifications of this treaty, what should go in and what should not in so far as a renewed or altered treaty is concerned. I believe I have made it clear that I consider that sort of thing to be properly the subject matter of a hearing in the marine and fisheries committee when we could have some of our competent scientists before us to answer questions and when we could have adequate representations from the fishermen and others concerned with the fishing industry.
I do hope that before this debate concludes we are going to have some sort of indication of the attitude the government is going to take in connection with this most important matter.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, I am replying because the Minister of Fisheries is not in the house today. He has to be in Halifax where there is a meeting of the northwest Atlantic conference, which is also concerned with the subject of conservation about which the hon. member for Comox-Alberni has just been speaking in terms with which I certainly do not quarrel. I think those of us on both coasts are well aware-


Mr. Maclnnis:: What coast are you on?


John Whitney Pickersgill: I have been elected five times in ten years, without any difficulty, in Bonavista-Twillingate, and I would remind the hon. member for Cape Breton South of that fact.


An hon. Member:: Go on with the fish story.


John Whitney Pickersgill: When hon. members conclude their interruptions,' I should like to go on with the serious point raised by the hon. member for Comox-Alberni.
I am sure the Minister of Fisheries had no thought of any discourtesy to the house.
I know that he has been very anxious to find a suitable opportunity upon which to make a full statement on this subject, and at a time when other hon. members would be able to express their views. I think that is
Interim Supply
the only reason he did not make a statement on motions. It is a little unfair to hon. members to make these statements on motions when there is no opportunity for debate. However, if it is felt by those hon. members who are particularly interested in this subject that it would be desirable for the minister to make a statement on motions, I feel he would be only too glad to do so at the first opportunity. I can bring that suggestion to his attention as soon as he is back in Ottawa.
So far as a meeting of the committee is concerned, I feel that as soon as these committees can be set up-we are seeking to do that as quickly as possible-I am going to ask the Minister of Fisheries to consult with other hon. members designated as members of that committee with a view to meeting the wishes of those members who will be on the committee with regard to this matter. I can assure hon. members that the government has not the slightest idea of concealing anything about its policies or preventing the fullest discussion of them here in the house, especially this subject which affects an important part of Canada.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: May I ask the minister a question? I understand that conversations will start in Washington on June 6 between the United States, Japan and Canada, on the matter of the treaty which will replace this one. I think we should have some assurance from the minister either that the meeting can be postponed until the whole question has been before the marine and fisheries committee or that no commitments are going to be made at this meeting in Washington until the fishermen and other groups interested have had an opportunity of appearing before the marine and fisheries committee.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I will endeavour, in consultation with my colleague, having regard to the arrangements with other countries that have already been made, to see that the fullest possible opportunity is given for discussion in the house at the earliest possible date. As hon. members know, no final commitment could be made by any government that is not agreeable to the house. We would particularly in our present situation, be most anxious to be sure that we carried the views of all hon. members before making any commitment of a final nature.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: I am sure the minister understands our concern, in view of the fact that on May 8 two of the recommendations of the international north Pacific fisheries commission were implemented by order in council, one of which permitted the Japanese to fish for halibut in the east Bering sea and the other to fish for herring off the Queen

Interim Supply
Charlotte islands. This was done without any reference either to the committee or to the house. I think the minister will appreciate the concern which all members of this group feel, as do hon. members in other parts of the house and the fishermen on the Pacific coast with respect to this matter.


Thomas Speakman Barnett: Since the Secretary of State seems to be acting as spokesman tonight, may I call to his attention a statement made by the Secretary of State for External Affairs in reply to a question on May 29. Referring to this meeting in Washington he said, as reported on page 415 of Hansard:
-at this meeting next week at which the Canadian government will be represented, there will be preliminary consideration oi the continuation of the abstention principle.
Now, I believe I have said enough in my earlier remarks to indicate that that abstention principle, while it is referred to in the main articles, so far as the meat is concerned, is in the annex. As my leader has already indicated, that was recently amended by the cabinet without any reference to the house. I think what my leader is seeking is some assurance that the Secretary of State for External Affairs, or whoever is going to Washington, is not going to agree to wiping out further elements of that abstention principle, without any reference to this house.


John Whitney Pickersgill: The hon. gentleman used the word "preliminary", and I think that is what it means.


Walter Lockhart Gordon: I am rising, perhaps optimistically, because I believe that all hon. members have sufficiently debated this resolution on interim supply.


Mr. Winch:: Not yet.


Walter Lockhart Gordon: Well, I shall make these remarks anyway, Mr. Chairman. I wish to thank the hon. member for Digby-Annapolis-Kings and other hon. members opposite, including my friend the hon. member for Chicoutimi, for their kind words of congratulation upon my appointment as Minister of Finance. In particular, may I mention the statement of the hon. member for Queens which was made at a time when I was out of the house for a few minutes on a matter of pressing personal business?
I am especially grateful to the hon. member for Digby-Annapolis-Kings for his courtesy in welcoming me to the Department of Finance when the governim nt changed hands and for introducing me to the staff of the department. I thank him also for his kind references to the staff of the department, which will be very much appreciated and which are very well deserved.

In his remarks the financial critic for the opposition roamed over a wide range of subjects, including the need for controlling expenditures, the desirability of working toward balanced budgets and the importance of the Glassco commission recommendations. I think most of these matters can best be dealt with in the course of the budget debate and I shall have something to say about them at that time if, as and when that time comes.


Mr. Nowlan:: Perhaps you could just tell us now when that will be.


Walter Lockhart Gordon: No, I cannot do that. But I was thinking of saying, Mr. Chairman, that if I had a little more time to work on that budget speech, perhaps the time would come more quickly. In his remarks the hon. member said, if I remember correctly, that I had not referred to the estimates for the fiscal year 1962-63. I did not refer to this matter in speaking to the resolution, Mr. Chairman, because I had already referred to it on May 29 when I tabled the estimates for 1963-64. I said at that time:
The government intends to report to parliament the total estimates and supply picture for 1962-63, following a detailed review being made to determine items and amounts which should properly be charged to the accounts of that year.
At that time parliament will be asked to give formal authorization for expenditures made in the last fiscal year. Other hon. members have raised a number of interesting and important matters, which have been brought to the attention of the ministers concerned. I do not expect that hon. members would wish me to deal with each of these matters myself, and in fact I am hardly in a position to do so. In speaking to the resolution I promised to do my best to answer any question that might be asked by hon. members. In doing so I was thinking of questions about this resolution dealing with interim supply.
I do not believe I was asked any specific questions on this particular subject, other than those I have just mentioned. But I can assure hon. members that if, when they have finished debating this resolution, they have any further questions, I shall do my very best to answer them when the bill itself is before the committee.


Mr. Chatterlon:: Mr. Chairman, my remarks will be very brief. I wanted to complement some of the remarks made by the hon. member for Comox-Alberni with regard to the recommendations of the international north Pacific fisheries commission. The hon. member for Comox-Alberni said he had never seen the commercial fishermen on the west coast so concerned as they are at the present time.

The point I want to make to hon. members is this. I hope the Secretary of State, who is apparently acting as pinch-hitter for the Minister of Fisheries, is listening. It is more than just the commercial fishermen who are concerned. I would quote just two sentences from a brief, Mr. Chairman, and after I have quoted this excerpt I will give the committee the name of the organizations who are supporting this resolution:
The recommendation of the international north Pacific fisheries commission to open northern B.C. and northern Alaska waters to Japanese fishing fleets poses a serious threat to the future of B.C.'s fishing industry .. . The commission's action was a form of appeasement and allows Japan to get her foot in the door which could lead to future net fishing of our salmon off the west coast of Vancouver island by Japanese fishing fleets accompanied by mother ships equipped with refrigeration or canning equipment. It is of the utmost importance that our government must do everything in its power to stop this future threat and protect our heritage.
This is a resolution submitted by the amalgamated conservation society. The following organizations are members of this society and are co-signers of this brief: Victoria Saanich inlet anglers association, south Vancouver island rangers, Esquimalt salmon club, Oak bay anglers, the Chinook club, royal Canadian naval anglers association, the Cowichan bay salmon club, Victoria fish and game protective association, the Victoria chamber of commerce, the Saanich inlet boatmen's association, the Pacific trollers association, the Victoria outboard club.
The point I want to make is that there is much concern on the whole of the Pacific coast, not only as to the government's action in accepting the recommendation of the commission, but the eyes of the west coast people, through these organizations that I have quoted, will be on Washington when the renegotiation of this treaty takes place. I hope the Secretary of State will keep in mind what he indicated tonight, as I understood him, that there will be no firm commitment by the government until such time as there has been an opportunity by this house to discuss the renegotiation of that treaty.


William Arnold Peters: Mr. Chairman, this is one of the first opportunities for me to bring to the attention of the government some of the problems that are arising from a scheme in the province of Ontario in which the federal government obviously intends to participate. On June 1 of this year the Ontario government proclaimed the first portable pension program in Canada. Both the Conservative government and the present government have stated that portable pensions for Canadians must first be brought into a national pension
Interim Supply
scheme to replace our old age security program, and at the same time such a scheme must take into consideration the rights of provincial governments in this field.
I think more leadership should come from the federal government, rather than waiting for one of the provincial governments to do something in this particular field. What would have happened if the federal government had waited, when they decided to implement unemployment insurance, until all the provinces had a scheme of their own that the federal government could bring under their wing as a national insurance program? The same is true of family allowances. If we had waited until family allowances were implemented by the provinces, and then the scheme had been endorsed by the federal government, we might have had a very different scheme, on a patchwork basis, than we have at the present time. I believe this matter of pensions is just as important as any social legislation to which the Canadian people have given their attention. During the recent election campaign, particularly in northern Ontario, I think all the candidates of all political parties were of the opinion-


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, I wonder whether the hon. gentleman would permit me to interrupt-I am not seeking to do so in anything but a conciliatory spirit-to raise a question as to whether, since this portable pension program scheme and the old age security program are a part of the program envisaged in this session of parliament and are not yet in operation, this is the appropriate time at which this subject should be raised.
This is a time when hon. members have a right to raise grievances with respect to matters that are now being carried out by the government. There was an opportunity in the debate on the speech from the throne, there will be another opportunity during the budget debate, there will be a still further opportunity on various supply motions, and there will be an opportunity when the legislation itself is brought before parliament. I am really appealing to the hon. member who is seeking to raise a formal point of order. Does he not feel at this time, when the government is seeking supply in order to carry on the ordinary administration, and seeking to get it so that we can get on with the rest of our program, that he would not be willing to defer this discussion until one or the other occasions I mentioned, without a formal point of order being raised?


William Arnold Peters: If this is a formal point of order I do not think it need detain us long. I do not intend to go into the ramifications of pension programs in general, but this is a

Interim Supply
matter which has been discussed in the speech from the throne and we are now being asked to vote about one third of the total estimates for this year. It seems to me, therefore, the government should pay some attention to this subject. It is one in which I have a special interest because for some time I have been advocating a portable pension plan which would satisfy the type of people with whom I worked for many years. These are bushworkers and miners who could never meet the need to qualify for a pension on a 20-year basis although they are particularly interested in whatever action the federal government might be taking in this field.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I feel, now, I have no choice, Mr. Chairman, but to raise a formal point of order. It surely is contrary to our rules to have a grievance against the government of Ontario aired in a supply debate in our house. I feel that if the hon. gentleman would accept the suggestion I made earlier and make a speech on this subject during the debate on the budget, when we would have a wide ranging discussion, he might not be out of order but at this time to discuss the deficiencies of a legislative or an administrative scheme of the government of Ontario is completely outside the permitted scope of our deliberations.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I can understand the desire of the Secretary of State to move this business along as quickly as possible and I think I can say for most of us over here that we do not wish to delay it unduly. However, I think the hon. gentleman would do much better to stay in the role of a conciliator rather than to raise a formal point of order about this. If my hon. friend were only raising a grievance against the government of Ontario, the Secretary of State would have a point, but as I understand the remarks made by my colleague, they are to the effect that a situation is developing in this country which is a matter of concern. We are not alone in this belief. Those who are interested in these schemes fear there is likely to be a conflict in this field of portable pensions because one province is going in, another province is going in, and all the time the federal government is telling us to contain ourselves. Basically, this is a grievance against the federal government for being too slow in the implementation of its policy.


Some hon. Members:: Oh.


John Whitney Pickersgill: My reply to that is very brief. If hon. members opposite would give us supply it would enable us to get on with our program and bring the pension legislation down that much earlier.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Nothing is stopping you from putting it on the order paper.


William Arnold Peters: On this point of order, the subject with which I am dealing is not so far divorced from the responsibility of this government as has been suggested. A major consideration with regard to any pension plan, whether it be in Ontario or any other province, is the income tax exemptions which are allowed in respect of this plan. This places responsibility on the shoulders of the federal government. In 1945, the previous government brought in, through the minister of finance of that day, Mr. McCann, a direction covering pension plans for the purpose of the Income Tax Act established by the taxation division of the Department of National Revenue. I suggest the reason this was disallowed was because vesting rights in this pension plan could not be negotiated between some of the major companies in this country, companies which already have had plans in operation with the federal government. In 1959, it may be remembered, the Conservative government again brought in a regulation affecting the vesting rights of pension plans. But the government of that day again withdrew the direction, which was issued by order in council, for the same reason namely that they were having great difficulty with the vesting rights in the income tax division.
You may be surprised to know, Mr. Chairman, that in connection with that new plan in Ontario an observation has been made by the Montreal Trust Company pension division in the following terms:
It would appear that employers are seeking to avoid the legislated provisions and control of the act covering benefits in sharing or deferred profit sharing plans as a vehicle for providing supplementary benefits which do not come under the control of the act. However, income tax concessions, particularly from the employee's standpoint-
I should like to point out that the Ontario pension plan has not met one of our basic needs in northern Ontario where there are movements of labour interprovineially on a considerable scale. Many people live in Ontario and work in Quebec. This is common in the Noranda area. Then there are large numbers of people living in northern Quebec who travel into Ontario to work in the mines. Thus, any plan which depends on the provinces for its implementation, must find itself seriously limited, since, as I say, people travel from one province into another to work and, when they retire, probably move into the second province to live. Thus, there is a need for a national attitude toward pension plans. Many of the miners in northern Ontario have recently been asked to leave their homes and places of employment in

order to live in northern Manitoba. So the problem is not just one between Quebec and Ontario; it is national in scope. Some of the men I know might have been working at Belle island. Then they would move to Sea island. The next job might be in Alaska or even in the United States. The federal government has agreed to participate in this Ontario provincial scheme, but since the inception of that scheme many shortcomings have become apparent to the workers concerned.


Lucien Lamoureux: I should bring to the attention of the hon. member that he may not discuss the merits of this provincial statute dealing with portable pensions. Although I do not wish to restrict discussion in any way I submit to him that he should not confine his remarks to a matter which relates exclusively to an Ontario statute. I believe this is what he has been doing for the last minute or so.


William Arnold Peters: With due deference, Mr. Chairman, that was not what I was doing. The vesting rights have already been discussed on a number of occasions. My point, which I will not labour, is that I believe the federal government have a responsibility in the matter. I could quote from the literature which was circulated in my area and the ridings of other hon. members of the Liberal party indicating that this was one of the first considerations which the government would take under discussion. There is a limit on the act passed in Ontario, and the federal government still has time to provide legislation to implement a better plan than that envisioned by the provinces. The government can certainly count on our assistance, but they should not wait until the provinces are ready with pension plans of their own so that the federal government can provide the umbrella under which they can operate. I suggest this matter should be properly planned. The present government has probably had considerable time to discuss the commission's report at great length, which contains all the necessary information to provide Canada with a very far reaching pension plan serving the needs of the people, instead of doing it on a patch-work basis and allowing the provinces to put this sort of legislation into effect.


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Chairman, when I intervened in the debate this afternoon, I referred to a complaint made by the hon. member for Nanaimo-Cowichan-The Islands. I told him at that time that I was not able to deal with the case because I had not obtained the report from the mounted police. I have now obtained that report and I should like to make a statement with reference to it.
The question raised by the hon. member for Nanaimo-Cowichan-The Islands on Friday 28902-5-40
Interim Supply
last concerned the dismissal from the royal Canadian navy of Gordon Harry Knott. Although the name of this man was not supplied, inquiries made by the R.C.M.P. during the past week end at the west coast have revealed that, in this case, a serious error has occurred.
The R.C.M.P., as far back as 1958, had been informed by a very responsible person in that community in which the Knott families had lived that Gordon Harry Knott's father, Wallace Knott, was a brother of one Ernest Leon Knott. The source of this information was in a position where he might be expected to know of such a relationship. Until this week end, this same source of information was still of the same belief. After Gordon Harry Knott had joined the royal Canadian navy in October 1961, the R.C.M.P. was requested to make the usual security check. At this time, and in another community, a further reliable source of information was questioned as to his knowledge of the Wallace Knott family. This person held a responsible position in the community and stated that he knew Wallace Knott very well and was also acquainted with his brother, Ernest Leon Knott. This was confirmation of the information already held on file by the R.C.M.P. Here we had, in this matter, two reputable sources of information, living in different communities, each claiming a good knowledge of the Knott families, stating that Wallace and Ernest Leon Knott were brothers. It was on this basis that the R.C.M.P. felt themselves on firm ground in making their report to the navy.
Following the hon. member's statement to the house on Friday and the location of what appeared to be the appropriate file, although the name had not been advanced, a most intensive investigation was launched at the west coast during the week end. Eventually a source of information, of undoubted reliability, was located which made it quite clear Ernest Leon Knott and Wallace Knott were not brothers.
Under the circumstances, Mr. Chairman, I can only tender a very deep apology to this young man and his family, not only for the inconvenience but for the embarrassment which has been caused. I am taking this matter up with my colleague the Minister of National Defence to see how he, Gordon Knott, if he so wishes, can continue with his interrupted career.


Mr. Cameron (Nanaimo-Cowichan-The Islands):: Mr. Chairman, I should like to express my very great appreciation for the minister's frank statement, which I am quite sure will be accepted wholeheartedly by this boy's family. Thank you very much.

Interim Supply


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Mr. Chairman, I am sure all of us are grateful to the minister for taking this very speedy action, but if ever there was proof of the need for setting up some appeal body, it has been shown here tonight. Here is a man who was dismissed from Her Majesty's forces on the strength of statements from two people who allegedly knew the family but who it turns out did not know the family. To have a man condemned on the basis of tittle-tattle, on the basis of rumour, on the basis of information given by unintelligent people is surely not good enough. A report has been turned in on flimsy evidence, the kind of evidence on which I submit, Mr. Chairman, you would not hang a dog.
As I said this afternoon we are not condemning the R.C.M.P. as a force. What we are saying is that the kind of people who have been handling security and intelligence are in a great many instances lacking the right kind of qualifications; that these people are ill-trained and ill-informed and in many cases completely unfit for the task they are carrying on. Surely it ought not to lie with members of the House of Commons to have to raise individual cases like this. If this young man's case had not been raised by the hon. member for Nanaimo-Cowichan-The Islands, he would probably be still like the young man from the air force in Regina- peddling goods from door to door with a bar sinister across his record. Members of parliament have more to do than deal with individual cases like this, and the Minister of Justice has more to do than to be badgered by them. Surely the time has come to set up a proper tribunal or quasi-judicial committee to where people like this can go; where they can take their counsel, call their witnesses and be heard; where they can know what is the evidence against them. If they have nothing to fear and come honestly and disclose all the facts, then undoubtedly they will be given a clean bill of health. If they cannot, then of course the security branch has done a good job in that it has discovered some person who is a menace to the security of this nation. I urge the minister that in light of this illustration which he himself has given tonight the government should take into very serious consideration the setting up of some board of appeal to deal with these cases so that members of parliament do not have to deal with them on the floor of the house. I for one am prepared to leave it to the minister and his good sense to deal with this. If it is not dealt with when the estimates of his department come before the house, I must say we shall want some further information regarding what the government proposes to do in dealing with cases of this nature.


Harold Edward Winch: Mr. Chairman, there is one matter which I should like to speak about for a few moments. I should like to know, and I think this committee would like to know, what has been the decision of the government as to a review of a policy initiated by the previous government and whether they are going to follow it through with the expenditure of certain money in the next two months, which expenditure we are now discussing. I am referring to the finalizing of plans which could result in a multi-million dollar expenditure. I am talking about that part of the interim supply now before us asking for a sufficiency of money to complete the plans of, and to call for tenders for, the construction of a multi-million dollar drug addiction treatment centre on the west coast of British Columbia.
This matter of drug addiction is a serious one, particularly in the province of British Columbia. It is going to cost a great deal of money to cure the addicts, to see they do not return to drug addiction, and to get rid of narcotic pushers. Therefore, it is of the utmost importance that we feel sure in the finalizing of plans, towards which money will be allotted during the next two months, that our policy on the treatment of drug addiction is going to prove beneficial, particularly when the taxpayers will be called upon to spend many millions of dollars.
Mr. Chairman, I am raising this matter now because I am of two minds as to whether or not the policy outlined by the previous government and which has resulted in the initiation of the present plan, is the correct one. It is the policy of placing the drug addicts, by compulsion, in an institution for treatment and later releasing them. However, throughout the world, and particularly in the United States, it has been proven that a similar plan does not cure drug addicts.
Has the government, since it took office, gone into this question? Has it made any study of its policy regarding the curing of drug addicts and the controlling of the narcotics racket? Has it accepted and is it prepared now to state that the correct policy is that which was initiated by the previous government?
I raise this matter because over the years we have been treating drug addicts as criminals and putting them in penitentiaries. There they are cured of their drug addiction because they cannot get drugs, but when their sentence is over and they go back into society, unfortunately in the majority of cases the majority of these men and women who have not had drugs for years go right back and become addicts again, of their own volition or because of the pressure put on them by narcotic pushers. Surely, sir, that

amply demonstrates that institutionalizing on its own is not the answer to this most severe and serious problem?
Surely we should recognize by now that addicts should be treated as sick persons, should have curative treatment and under doctor's orders should receive, on a diminishing basis, their drug requirements? But, no matter what is done, it should be on a basis that when they were released to society they are not subject to the drug pushers, and the only way to get away from that is to take the profit out of the drug racket.
The spending of millions of dollars on an institution may still leave that cancerous sore because of the fact that drug pushers can still make a profit and can still persuade people into the habit of drug addiction. I do not want to delay the house any longer but this is a vital problem, and as we are being asked now to vote moneys for June and July for the completion of the plans-and I have read in the press that tenders are being called-I feel it my duty to raise the matter on interim supply and to question whether the government has given consideration to this entire question.
If the government has considered what is the best policy to be pursued in Canada to remove this curse of drug addiction, is it the government's contention that it is going to go along with the solution of the problem through treatment in an institution which is going to cost millions of dollars in the province of British Columbia? If it feels it should go ahead on this particular line then I feel that at some future time there should be a further discussion in this house of the problem in all its aspects.


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Chairman, may I be allowed to say a few words in answer to the hon. member's suggestion. I can assure him that what he has said tonight will be given very careful consideration. However, I did not rise for that purpose. I rose again to say a word in connection with the suggestion made by the hon. member for Burnaby-Co-quitlam.
When I received the report from the commissioner of the R.C.M.P. I discussed it first with the Prime Minister and with some of my colleagues who are at hand. I had brought it to the Prime Minister's attention and to their attention also, that when I came to the department, because of other cases that had been brought to my attention by the commissioner himself, I felt consideration should be given to the suggestion made by the hon. gentleman.
In fact when I spoke this afternoon-I tried to be patient with the hon. gentleman, although I do not think he thought I was
28902-5-40J
Ways and Means
being that-and said that I required some time to consider and evaluate the whole position, I did have something of that nature in mind. I must tell him we have already been giving consideration to a suggestion of that character, and I would like to say now that that suggestion will be given the most careful scrutiny.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: May I say, Mr. Chairman, I was reading over the Hansard report of what I said this afternoon and I find I stuck my neck out a long way. I said I had great faith in the minister and I was sure he would do something about this. I hope these words will not come back to haunt me, but I am sure they will not.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Resolution reported and concurred in.


[Stage Direction]
The house in committee of ways and means, Mr. Lamoureux in the chair.
Walter Lockhart Gordon: Resolved, that towards making good the supply granted to Her Majesty on account of certain expenses of the public service for the fiscal year ending March 31st. 1964, the sum of $1,430,259,968.45 be granted out of the consolidated revenue fund of Canada, as set forth in the resolution concurred in this day in the committee of supply.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Resolution reported and concurred in.
Mr. Gordon thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. C-69, for granting to Her Majesty certain sums of money for the public service for the financial year ending the 31st March, 1964.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.
Mr. Deputy Speaker:: When shall the said bill be read the second time?


John Whitney Pickersgill: By leave, now.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Is it agreed?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Walter Lockhart Gordon: the second reading of the bill.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Lamoureux in the chair.
On clause 1-Short title.
Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Chairman, before clause 1 carries may I say the Minister of Finance seemed a little unhappy that after his general invitation to members to put questions to him most of the questions were directed to other ministers. I do not like to see the

Ways and Means
Minister of Finance unhappy, especially just 10 days before he is going to bring down his budget, so I am happy to accommodate him by asking him some questions about matters that do come under his jurisdiction.
As the minister will recall, he has been asked a number of times already this session by members in various quarters of the house about certain civil service matters. The minister has a very disarming way of answering these questions. He tells us these matters are under active consideration and we get the impression something is going to be done, but I have the uneasy feeling that these answers are copied almost word for word from the answers given by the previous minister of finance. He was disarming and genial as well.


George Clyde Nowlan: You flatter me.


Stanley Howard Knowles: The minister was pretty outspoken before he moved over to the treasury benches about the speed with which things could be done. He had a lot of ideas. Does he think it is fair to the civil service that so many categories have had to wait so long for the pay increases that became effective for most categories on December 10 of last year? Can this not be dealt with very soon?
I will save the minister the trouble of bobbing up and down by asking all my questions now. There is also the problem of civil servants who retired after the retroactive date of the pay increases but before the pay increases were announced. In other words, these civil servants were working during the period in which there were pay increases but because of the date of their retirement they did not get them. The minister has said this is being looked into. How long does the looking into process have to take?
Then there is the question of collective bargaining for civil servants, and this has been indicated as something to which the government is committed. I take it this comes under the responsibility of the Minister of Finance. How much longer are we going to have to wait for this?
Another question I have raised on a number of occasions is the improving of pensions of civil servants already retired. I remind the minister that for many years we in this house urged that something should be done to improve the pensions of those who were being asked to live on very small amounts. It was argued for many years that this could not be done, that these pensions were matters of contract, that the regulations were set and there was nothing that could be done about the whole matter. I have to give a bouquet to the last government. They made a breakthrough in this field and did bring down the first legislation that actually increased the

pensions of civil servants who were already retired. But though the previous government made a breakthrough I do not think they did enough in terms of the amounts that were provided or in terms of the people who were covered. Retired civil servants are still pressing for action in this field.
There are other problems with regard to temporary employees and the various orders in council and treasury board directives that have affected these people. Frankly, Mr. Chairman, we do not think that the minister should take too long in coming forward not just with an assurance that these matters will be considered but with a definite statement that something is being done.


Walter Lockhart Gordon: May I say to the hon. member, who is an old trade unionist and will understand these operations, that when I answered questions before and said these matters would be dealt with promptly I did not mean that they would be dealt with overnight. I meant that we had dates and we had plans and we knew the order in which various things were going to be tackled. I arranged some weeks ago to meet with the staff associations at their request on June 14. There have already been discussions with members of the staff, of the finance department, and I am hoping at that time to meet with the staff associations myself. Although I will not commit myself to a date as to when a final decision will be made, I am hoping that from then on we will move with a little more speed, perhaps, than the hon. member may think we have been making so far. I would remind him that there have been matters which have had to be dealt with. Rightly or wrongly, I thought that certain considerations in connection with the budget should come first and this subject should come second. When I say "this subject" I include all the matters about which he has been talking.


Harold Edward Winch: May I ask a supplementary question? The minister has told me about a meeting on June 14 with the civil service association. Could he also tell us if and when he is meeting with the internal economy committee which has charge of the wages and salaries of the employees in this building because they, too, are amongst the lowest paid of all the employees. They should have the increase.


Walter Lockhart Gordon: There is a meeting of that committee called for tomorrow night or the night after.


Harold Edward Winch: I hope an announcement will be made then.


Walter Lockhart Gordon: The announcements will all be made at the same time, I expect. I think

it is important that there be some co-ordination between rates and remuneration throughout the government service.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Let us hope this is all within the first 60 days.


George Clyde Nowlan: I was hoping that when the minister replied to the question by the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre he would answer by saying he was going to deal with these matters when he brought down his budget. Then, I was going to ask him if he could tell us when the budget will be brought down.


Walter Lockhart Gordon: No, Mr. Chairman, I am not in a position yet to give the exact date.


[Stage Direction]
Clause agreed to.
Clauses 2 to 6 inclusive agreed to.
On clause 7-Power to raise loan of $1,500 million for public works and general purposes.
(Translation):
Mr. Gregoire:: Mr. Chairman, as far as clause 7 is concerned, the governor in council requests, at least, I believe so-we just got the bill-the authority to borrow $1.5 billion.
I feel that when all items are passed so quickly, in three, four seconds, the governor in council has just asked to borrow $1.5 billion, we should pause and ask ourselves what will be the results of those actions. In the past, borrowings like that have been made time after time, with the result that we are paying, each year, $881 million in debt charges.
Mr. Chairman, in my opinion, the Minister of Finance should give us some explanation concerning that new loan he wants to issue, or at least that new authority to borrow he is asking for, involving up to $1.5 billion. Can the minister give us some explanation about this item, so that we may discuss it? (Text):


Walter Lockhart Gordon: 
Mr. Olson:: I wonder if the minister would give the committee some assurance that any additions to the national debt of Canada that may come about from this huge borrowing authority would be taken up, at least partially, by the Bank of Canada? I know that in the last few months there have been some rather large loans subscribed by the central bank, and we think it is desirable to follow this course if the minister can now assure us we are going to continue this practice, and perhaps extend it, the information would be welcome.


Walter Lockhart Gordon: Mr. Chairman, I think this is perhaps a poor time for me to enter into a protracted debate on the monetary operations of the Bank of Canada. The decision as to how much of any new borrowing will be taken up by the Bank of Canada must depend on conditions in the country at the time, and upon the ability and willingness of other borrowers to participate in the market.
(Translation):


Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Chairman, I wish to direct another question with regard to section 7.
Could the Minister of Finance tell us how much he expects to save the government by issuing a loan once or twice during the year, rather than frequent loans maturing after 30, 60 or 90 days? Will that affect the estimates that he has tabled, in which he forecasts that the interest on the debt will amount to $881 million.
(Text):


Walter Lockhart Gordon: Mr. Chairman, it is not a question of borrowing from the public once or twice a year. It is to put the government in a position where it has authority to borrow at the most appropriate time, having regard

Ways and Means
to market conditions from day to day. I think it is fair to say that if we have this authority there will be some savings, but I certainly am not in a position to say how much.


[Stage Direction]
Clause agreed to.
Clause 8 agreed to.
Schedules A to G inclusive agreed to.
On schedule H-
(Translation):
Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Chairman, I just want to draw your attention to one thing: we received that bill only 7 or 8 minutes ago and most members did not get-


An hon. Member:: I did not get it.


Gilles Grégoire: And many here shout
"agreed" to things they have not yet received or have not had time to read even.
If the people of Canada were aware that we are voting millions of dollars, without even knowing what it is all about, when some here shout "agreed", without knowing why, they would have cause to be shocked. When we do that, I think we show that the part played by the members is not very important, since we are asked to vote $1,500 million on five minutes' notice.
(Text):


Walter Lockhart Gordon: May I just say to the hon. member that he will appreciate that these amounts are in exactly the same form as the resolution which we have been discussing for the past two days.
(Translation):


Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Chairman, we are told that the bill is drafted in the same form as the resolution which has been carried, but I must point out that there is no mention whatsoever in the resolution of a borrowing power of $1,500 million. This is new tonight.
(Text):
Schedule H agreed to.
On the preamble-


Stanley Howard Knowles: Before the preamble carries, may I ask the minister a question about one of the provisions in this bill? I do so because earlier this evening he said that after there had been a complete review of the 1962-63 expenditures an accounting would be placed before parliament and parliament would be asked to give formal authorization. I realize that is about all we can expect a new government to do with respect to a previous government's expenditures.
What I wanted to ask was this. Is that something that is still to come, or has that been tucked into clause 6 of this bill?


Walter Lockhart Gordon: That is something that is still to come, Mr. Chairman.
IMr. Gordon.1


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Chairman, can the minister tell us what clause 6 is about?


Walter Lockhart Gordon: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I shall be glad to. Clause 6 is new and is required because of a strict interpretation of subsection 4 of section 28 of the Financial Administration Act which was first enacted after the period of general financing by special Governor General's warrants in 1958.
It was intended to ensure that special warrants would be open to discussion in parliament on the first occasion on which requests were made to parliament for further supply. It was obviously not drafted in contemplation of a recurrence of the unusual situation of 1958, but I am advised that under present circumstances its strict interpretation would require the inclusion of the amounts authorized by special warrants, in the old year 1962-63 to be included in the bill. Rather than intermingle and confuse the financial records of the two years, and because it is the government's intention to provide parliament with a complete accounting in respect of 1962-63 later in this session, this bill includes only those special governor general's warrants which provided for expenditures during April and May, 1963, the first two months of the current fiscal year.
The special warrants which supported government operations during the final months of the year 1962-63 will be described in detail in a report on supply for 1962-63 which will be tabled later this session and which will be followed by a special appropriation act dealing solely, but completely, with the expenditures and accounts of that year. In this respect, the proposed practice is modelled exactly on that followed in 1958.


[Stage Direction]
Preamble agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported.
Mr. Deputy Speaker:: When shall the said bill be read a third time?


John Whitney Pickersgill: By leave, now.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Agreed?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
Bill read the third time and passed.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Speaker, I wonder
whether the house leader would announce the business for tomorrow and, profiting from today's experience, not interrupt proceedings at five o'clock and things of that nature.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I should begin by apologizing to the hon. gentleman's susceptibilities for my interrupting. It was not very successful and perhaps it would not be very wise to repeat it.

Tomorrow we will continue with the debate on the motion of the Prime Minister to set up the committee on matters relating to defence. As soon as that is completed we will take the resolution preceding the bill to set up the economic council. If that should be completed-


An hon. Member:: That is enough.
Business of the House Mr. Pickersgill: I think it is perhaps just as well to indicate as far as possible what else would be taken up. If that is completed we would hope to take up the resolution preceding the bill to set up the department of industry.


[Stage Direction]
It being eight minutes after ten o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[Stage Direction]
Tuesday, June 4, 1963