1963-06-12

Hon. A. J. MacEachen (Minister of Labour):: Yesterday the hon. member for Medicine Hat raised a question of privilege in connection with a reply given on June 3 in the house by my parliamentary secretary to a question on the order paper. The question related to the cost of the operation of technical and vocational schools. The hon. member suggested that the answers received were in some way contradicted by the statement I made subsequently to the house on Monday last.
As I intimated yesterday, the suggestion that there is any contradiction between the answer given on June 3 and the statement made on Monday is groundless. The proposed amendments which I outlined in my statement on Monday last do not include any change in the federal share of the cost of operating technical and vocational schools. Thus there is no contradiction at all between the two statements.



PUBLIC SERVICE


Hon. Maurice Lamontagne (President of the Privy Council):: I wish to make a statement on government organization and bilingualism in the federal public service.
The Glassco commission has now completed its work and the fifth and final volume of its report is being tabled in the house today. On behalf of the government I want to express our sincere appreciation to the chairman, to the other members of the commission and to all those who have been associated with their work. The government is pressing forward with a review of the recommendations made by the Glassco commission, particularly those which are expected to result in greater efficiency and flexibility in the public service. Several recommendations of a relatively minor character have already been agreed upon and are now in the process of being implemented. Now that the commission has completed its task the government will be in 28902-5-59
a position to give immediate consideration to the report as a whole and to the basic recommendations it contains.
(Translation):
The government has already announced its intention of taking steps to ensure that the federal administration, including crown corporations, will be bilingual in character. That objective has already been set forth in the terms of reference to be given to the royal commission on bilingualism and biculturalism. However, the government does not intend to wait for the recommendations of that commission before taking concrete steps in that field. We are now preparing a comprehensive plan, to be put into force by stages as soon as it is completed. Of course, should it see fit to do so, the commission may criticize the measures we shall have taken while awaiting its report.
A special cabinet committee has already been formed to prepare that comprehensive plan as well as the necessary reforms in the government organization. I shall be in a position to submit a first progress report on the work of that committee within a few weeks.
(Text):


Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, I join with the hon. gentleman in his congratulations to those who served on the Glassco commission; they indeed gave of their best. While I have not seen the last report, the other reports have been very carefully read by me and gave every indication of the comprehensiveness and thoroughness with which that commission carried out its heavy responsibilities. Indeed, the words of the president of the council today are welcomed by those of us who brought this commission about, thereby enabling an examination to be made of administration in general as well as the administration of government in this country, to the end that such economies that are consistent with efficiency may be carried out. I hope there will be early action in this regard.
As to the question of bilingualism, I think it is very appropriate that action should be taken from time to time as matters arise, rather than waiting for the report of the as yet non-existent royal commission. We ourselves when in office endeavoured to take pronounced steps toward the establishment of bilingualism. In particular, I would point out that to make parliament more effective we

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brought in simultaneous translation, which made possible an interchange of discussion which was never possible before. Until we assumed office, and during the years I had been a member of this house prior thereto, when members of this house were speaking either of the official languages many of its members who were not fully conversant with that language left the house. That no longer takes place.
In general, I feel that the recommendations of Mr. Therrien deserve the earliest possible consideration. By his report he did a great deal to bring to the attention of parliament and the Canadian people the steps that ought to have been taken a long time ago, and were not taken until, as a result of the appointment of the Glassco commission, recommendations were made which brought to the attention of the people as a whole the need for changes in this regard so that the principles inherent in confederation might be consummated.



CRIMINAL CODE


Mr. H. E. Gray (Essex West) moved: for leave to introduce Bill No. C-73, to amend the Criminal Code (raffles and bingo for charitable purposes).


Some hon. Members:: Explain.


Herbert Eser (Herb) Gray: Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this bill is to amend the Criminal Code so as to permit service groups and similar non profit making community organizations, as well as religious groups, to raise money if they so desire for charitable and religious purposes through raffles and bingo.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions to be answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)
(Translation):

Mr. Caoueite: What are the public works under federal jurisdiction which are now in process in the riding of Villeneuve?


Mr. Badanai:: As far as the Department of National Defence is concerned the projects mentioned below are in progress in the electoral riding of Villeneuve:
(a)	Extension and reconstruction of a runway at Val d'Or;
(b)	Reserve power for the purpose of lighting the runway;
[Mr. Diefenbaker.l
(c)	Construction of a road and power distribution to the radar facilities.
However, the Department of Public Works expects to call tenders very shortly for wharf repairs at Duparquet, Louvicourt, as well as on the Malartic and Thompson rivers in the constituency of Villeneuve.
(Text):


CANADIAN FORCES VOTING RULES
Mr. Fisher: 1.	Are any further amendments contemplated to the tri-service order issued before the general election of 1962 pursuant to rule 29 of the Canadian forces voting rules for application to any subsequent election?
2.	Will steps be taken to assure that the triservice order and any amendments thereto are drawn to the attention of all candidates in any subsequent general election?


Mr. Hellyer:: 1. Not at present, but an extract of that portion of the tri-service order relating to rule 29 of the Canadian forces voting rules will be drawn to the attention of the committee on privileges and elections when it is reviewing the report of the chief electoral officer.
2. An extract of the tri-service order or any amendment thereto, relating to rule 29 of the Canadian forces voting rules will be made available on request by any officially nomi-inated candidate.


RAIL SERVICE, GUELPH TO OWEN SOUND AND SOUTHAMPTON
Mr. Howe (Wellingion-: Huron):
1.	What was the cost this year to date of maintaining the rail line passenger service between (a) Guelph and Owen Sound and (b) Guelph and Southampton?
2.	What percentage of the line costs and track facilities are charged to the passenger service?
3.	What percentage of communication costs are charged to the passenger service?
4.	In the general costing procedures are any of the railway trucking costs charged to the passenger service?
5.	What was the total revenue, including express revenue, for the months of January, February, March, April and May on each of these lines?


Mr. Canlin:: The management of Canadian National Railways advise as follows:
1.	Data for 1962 only currently available,
(a)	$156,300. (b) $159,300.
2.	Approximately 2 per cent.
3.	Communications records are not maintained for individual lines and therefore it is not possible to develop this percentage.
4.	No trucking costs are charged to passenger train service.
5.	Data not immediately available. For 1962 total revenue was $64,105.


C.N.R. TRACK MAINTENANCE SYSTEM, WESTERN REGION
Mr. Lambert: 1.	Has the management of the Canadian National Railway inaugurated a new system of track maintenance in its western region and, if so, what changes have been effected and what would be the reduction in the number of men required for maintenance of way crews in the region?
2.	What plans are being put into practice to relocate those former employees who may be found surplus to requirements?


Jean-Charles Cantin: The management of Canadian National Railways advise as follows:
1.	Railway maintenance of way methods have been improved by the use of mechanized equipment. During the past 10 years there has been a general rehabilitation program to improve the track structure and ensure safer train operation. Such improvements have included heavier rail, better ballasting and drainage, wider embankments, tested ties. These improvements in the track structure together with mechanization of maintenance methods have reduced work load requirements. Any adjustments of the work force have been made on a gradual basis. The net adjustment on the western regions during the past year has been approximately 35.
2.	In accordance with the wage agreements individuals may exercise seniority within their respective groups. The railway makes every effort to find alternate employment for men who may be affected.


C.N.R. SYMINGTON YARD
Mr. Fisher: 1.	Is the Symington yard of the C.N.R. now fully operational and, if so, what has been the average number of cars per day handled since full operation was attained?
2.	How does this figure compare with the maximum that planners of the yard predicted under given ideal traffic volume?
3.	If there is a marked disparity between average number of cars handled and maximum predicted, what explanation is there for it?
4.	Is the C.N.R. satisfied that it has gained rather than lost revenue in establishing the Symington yard, when capital costs and debt charges of construction are considered?
5.	Is there difficulty at Symington yard in making up small consists for way freights and, if so, is any consideration being given to establishing a small, manual hump yard for this purpose?


Jean-Charles Cantin: The management of Canadian National Railways advise as follows:
1.	Yard operations at Winnipeg are now consolidated at Symington. The average number of cars handled is 1,720 per day with a maximum of 2,600.
2 and 3. Car handlings at the present time are less than forecast because of the volume of traffic offering. The peak forecast was 3,300 as compared with 2,600 currently handled. A
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substantial reduction in average grain handling through Winnipeg has also affected the average traffic volume. In the period 1947-57 this movement averaged 89,132 car loads per year while in 1962 the total handlings were nearly one third lower at 61,422 car loads. The 1963 handling this far is at the 1962 annual rate.
4.	The hump yard at Winnipeg was planned as one of the key system train marshalling terminals functioning in conjunction with Montreal and Toronto. While the Montreal yard is in operation the Toronto yard is not expected to be in operation until 1965. When all yards are co-ordinated there will be substantial operating economies and betterment of service extending over the three regions. The yard at Winnipeg has been in operation less than a year and has not yet reached its full potential. Management considers the expenditure to have been an economic and prudent one for the benefit of the system as a whole.
5.	The answer to both parts of the question
is no.


C.N.R. PASSENGER CAR CAPACITY
Mr. Scott: Does the Canadian National Railways keep a statistical record of the relationship between total capacity of passenger cars actually operating on the railroads as opposed to the number of passengers actually carried and, if so, what is the relationship in percentage terms between total passenger car capacity and the number of passengers actually carried?


Jean-Charles Cantin: The management of Canadian National Railways advise as follows:
Information is not readily available to answer the question in the form asked. The number of passengers carried in relation to the capacity of equipment operated varies over a wide range according to territory and under the influence of seasonal factors. Generally, on principal main line trains the average occupancy of reserved accommodation may range as high as 75 per cent; the average occupancy of coaches tends to be much lower. On many branch lines while occupancy may be low a full complement of accommodation must be provided.


GUELPH, ONT., POST OFFICE ALTERATIONS
[Stage Direction]
Question No. 177'-Mr. Hales:
Does the government plan to proceed with the previously planned alterations to the Guelph post office building?
Hubert Badanai: No, not at the present time, but the proposal is still under study.


C.N.R. SALES OF EQUIPMENT, B.C. AND ALBERTA
Mr. Howard: Since January 1, 1963, has the Canadian National Railways sold any machinery or equipment in

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British Columbia or Alberta or which was at the time of sale located in British Columbia or Alberta, which was valued at more than $5,000 and, if so, with respect to each such piece what is (a) its description (b) its date of purchase (c) the purchase price (d) whether purchased new or used (e) the name and address of the seller (f) the date of sale (g) the selling price (h) the name and address of the purchaser (i) whether the sale was by bid or otherwise, and if not by bid, the reasons therefor?


Jean-Charles Cantin: The management of Canadian National Railways advise as follows:
In the operations of the railway many items of equipment are bought and sold on an ordinary commercial and competitive basis. In the normal course of events items of equipment which are considered obsolete or no longer required for railway purposes are advertised and sold to the highest bidder. Purchase or selling prices are not made a matter of public record.
province of Ontario, covering a study of the mental effects of alcoholism, undertaken by the University of Toronto at the Toronto psychiatric hospital. In 1962-63 this assistance was continued in a further amount of $2,984.
In 1962-63 the department also provided assistance amounting to $3,000 for a project, submitted by the province of Manitoba, for a study on the relationship between alcoholism and tuberculosis undertaken by the department of psychiatry of the University of Manitoba.
During 1961-62 and 1962-63 almost $2,500 was spent by the department for the reprinting of the pamphlet "Alcoholism" which is distributed to the general public through the provincial departments of health.
(Translation):


PUBLIC WORKS, CHAPLEAU CONSTITUENCY REVENUE PROM ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES
Mr. Mather: 1.	How much revenue did the federal government receive as a result of the sale of alcoholic beverages, including spirits and malt liquor, during 1962?
2.	What did the federal government spend during the same period to combat alcoholism in Canada?


Mr. Dupuis:: 1. Specified revenue of the government of Canada from alcoholic beverages1 for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1962 (latest available data):
On spirits:
Excise duty		$113,689,000
Licences		8,000
Import duty		29,919,000
Total on wines:	spirits	$143,616,000
Excise taxes		$3,350,000
Import duty		1,873,000
Total on beer:	wines	$5,223,000
Excise duty		$93,051,000
Licences		3,000
Import duty		203,000
Total on	beer	$93,257,000
and total2		$242,096,000
1	The table excludes revenue from general sales tax, which is not regarded as a specific tax on alcoholic beverages. (The amount of general sales tax on alcoholic beverages is not, in any case, available separately).
2	Drawbacks and refunds of duties and taxes have not been deducted.
2.	In 1961-62 the Department of National Health and Welfare, under the national health grants program, provided assistance amounting to $2,095 for a project, submitted by the


Mr. Laprise: 1.	What work is now being done in the constituency of Chapleau by the Department of Public Works?
2.	What amounts were voted for this purpose?


Hubert Badanai: 1. None.
2.	$45,000 in the 1963-64 estimates, which are now before the house.
(Text):


WEYMONTACHIE INDIAN RESERVE
Mr. Laprise: 1.	Have timber rights been granted to logging companies in the Weymontachie reservation of the Abitibi Indian agency and, if so, how much has the Weymontachie Indian band received from these timber rights?
2.	How much cash does this reservation have?
3.	Does the government intend to build, in the near future, suitable dwellings for the Indians living on this reservation?


Mr. Munro:: 1. Yes, the timber on the Weymontachie Indian reserve was under licence to logging companies in 1951 and from 1956 to 1959. Income from timber dues under these licences amounted to $101,128.87.
2.	The Weymontachie band funds as of March 31, 1963, amounted to $128,067.34 in capital account and $7,196.98 in revenue account.
3.	No, the future location of the Weymontachie band will depend on the effect on the area of the proposed power development of the St. Maurice river. Consequently there are no plans to construct new houses on the reserve in the near future.


SOCIAL WELFARE BENEFITS, COMPTON-FRONTENAC CONSTITUENCY
[Stage Direction]
Question No. 249
Mr. Lalulippe:: 1.	How many persons in the constituency of Compton-Frontenac are drawing social welfare benefits?

2.	What is the total amount that the government spent for this purpose during the last fiscal year, and of this total, how much was spent in (a) the county of Frontenac (b) the county of Compton?


Yvon Dupuis: 1. This information is not available.
2.	Department of National Health and Welfare expenditures for 1962-63:
Old age security, $734,381,632; family allowances, $531,566,349; family assistance, $1,238,276; unemployment assistance, $96,476,627; old age assistance, $38,179,056; disabled persons allowances, $19,634,312; blind persons allowances, $4,881,829.
(a) and (b). This information is not available.
(Translation):


GOVERNMENT BOND ISSUES
Mr. Pigeon: Of the total government bond issues from 1914 to date, how many were for each year (a) issued to bearer (b) not issued to bearer.


Mr. Benson:: Records have not been kept for the period indicated which would provide the information requested, but as at April 30, 1963, the division between fully registered and outstanding coupon bonds is as follows:
^Domestic issues: fully registered, $5,203,803,810.21; coupon, $10,859,561,050.00.
*Ex. series 17 Canada savings bonds still in process of flotation.
Loans payable in U.S. dollars: fully registered, $251,968,000.00; coupon, $96,327,000.00.
(Text):


TRENTON, N.S., AIRPORT IMPROVEMENTS
Mr. MacEwan: Is it the intention of the government to carry out improvements this year at the Trenton airport, Trenton, Nova Scotia, including extension of the runways?


Jean-Charles Cantin: This matter remains under review but so far traffic requirements do not appear to support any need for immediate expansion.
(Translation):


FOREST ACCESS ROADS, CHAPLEAU CONSTITUENCY
Mr. Laprise: What work is planned for the 1963-64 fiscal year in the constituency of Chapleau under the joint program for the construction of forest access roads?


Mr. Laing:: Estimated provincial Projects	expenditures
Villebois road-6 milles	$ 75,000
Bourque road-5 miles	75,000
Mazarin-Abitibi road-5 miles	100,000
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Megiscane road-15 miles	100,000
Vassal-Abitibi road-5 miles,
one bridge	50,000


PUBLIC WORKS, COMPTON-FRONTENAC CONSTITUENCY
Mr. Lalulippe: What funds have been allotted by the Department of Public Works for works programs in the constituency of Compton-Frontenac?


Hubert Badanai: Providing supply is approved by parliament, about $4,800 will be spent in the constituency of Compton-Frontenac during the current fiscal year.


FEDERAL BUILDINGS, COMPTON-FRONTENAC CONSTITUENCY
Mr. Latulippe: What are the federal buildings situated in the constituency of Compton-Frontenac; where are they situated; by whom are they maintained, and at what annual cost?


Hubert Badanai: In the constituency of Compton-Frontenac, the following federal buildings come under the Department of Public Works. The operation costs are those of 196162, the latest year for which figures are available.
Location	Cleaning	Annual Cost
Cookshire	By the Department of	
	Public Works	$4,501
East Angus	By the Department of	
	Public Works	5,709
Lake Megantic	By the Department of	
	Public Works	7,366
Sawyerville	By the Department of	
	Public Works	1,465
Scotstown	By the Department of	
	Public Works	2,243
(Text):


STUDY OF DANGERS OF TOBACCO ADDICTION
Mr. Perron: 1.	Has the national research council undertaken studies of the dangers of tobacco addiction, particularly cigarette smoking?
2.	Is the government aware of the reports printed in Great Eritain on this subject and, if so, has the Department of National Health and Welfare taken steps (a) to inform the population of the findings of these reports (b) to initiate investigations on this matter (c) to deal with advertising through various media by cigarette companies?
3.	If the government has not taken any steps to initiate investigations on this matter, will it consider doing so?


Yvon Dupuis: 1. No.
2. Yes.
(a)	Not specifically.
(b)	Yes. The department has carried out a six-year study of mortality in relation to smoking habits. A preliminary report was presented to the Canadian public health association in 1960 and a second report was made

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to the annual meeting of the same association in May of this year. The final report will be prepared at the later date.
(c)	This subject is under continuing study by the Department of National Health and Welfare. As this is a matter of government policy any announcement will be made at the appropriate time.
3.	See answer 2 (b) above.


IMMIGRATION TO CANADA, 1962
Mr. Mather: 1.	During 1962, what was the total immigration to Canada?
2.	From which countries did these immigrants come, and what was the number from each country?
3.	What were the numbers of these immigrants who registered for or came from categories of employment such as farm, factory, service or professional employment?


John Carr Munro: Immigration to Canada by Country of Last Permanent Residence
Country of Last	Calendar Year
Permanent Residence	1962
Austria	778
Belgium	706
Britain	15,603
Czechoslovakia	18
Denmark	594
Estonia	3
Finland	317
France	2,674
Germany	5,548
Greece	3,741
Hungary	450
Ireland, Republic	452
Italy	13,641
Latvia	8
Lithuania	4
Luxembourg	19
Malta	362
Netherlands, The	1,555
Norway	208
Poland	1,601
Portugal	2,928
Spain	362
Sweden	201
Switzerland	802
U.S.S.R.	56
Yugoslavia	862
Other	157
Sub-total for Europe	53,650
Rhodesia & Nyasaland	126
South Africa, Republic	340
Other	383
Sub-total for Africa (excl.
Egypt)	849
Egypt	1,322
Israel	558
Lebanon	303
Syria	22
Turkey	140
Other	20
Sub-total for Middle East	2,365
Ceylon	14
China	244
Hong Kong	426
India	529
Japan	137
Pakistan	55
Other	285
Sub-total for Asia (excl.
Middle East)	1,690
Australia	1,063
New Zealand	321
Sub-total for	Australasia	1,384West Indies,	Federation	1,480Mexico	134U.S.A.	11,643Other	228
Sub-total for North America 13,485
Argentina	133
Brazil	108
Other	862
Sub-total for South America 1,103 Oceania	60
Total	74,586
Immigration to Canada by (Intended) Occupational Groups
Occupational Group	Calendar Year
Destined to the Labour Force 1962
Managerial	1,093
Professional & Technical	8,218
Clerical	4,898
Commercial & Financial	1,214
Service & Recreation	5,853
Transport & Communication 489 Agriculture	1,923
Logging	64
Fishing, Trapping
& Hunting	14
Mining & Quarrying	100
Manufacturing, Mechanical
and Construction	9,685
Labourers	3,145
Others	52
Total	36,748

Not Destined to the Labour Force
Wives	15,674
Children	18,137
Fiance or Fiancee	136
Students (18 and over)	565
Others	3,326
Total	37,838
Grand Total	74,586


DEVELOPMENT OF FRENCH CREEK BOAT BASIN, B.C.
Mr. Basford: What amount of money, if any, will be spent this year on harbour development at French creek boat basin, Vancouver island, B.C.?


Hubert Badanai: This is not known at present because negotiations are still going on toward the acquisition of shoreline property.


* CHANGES IN LOCK CONSTRUCTION, TRENT WATERWAY
Mr. Aiken: Have any changes been made in plans concerning the construction of locks on the Trent waterway since the present government took office?


Jean-Charles Cantin: Mr. Speaker, the answer is no. (Translation):


ARMED FORCES PERSONNEL FROM COMPTON-FRONTENAC CONSTITUENCY
Mr. Laiulippe: 1.	What units of the armed forces of Canada have members from the constituency of Compton-Fron-tenac?
2.	How many persons from the said constituency are in the army, the air force, the navy, and how many in each unit of said forces?


Mr. Cardin:: 1 and 2. According to the files, the breakdown of the number of persons from the constituency of Compton-Frontenac in the armed forces is as follows: army, 95; air force, 90; navy, 9.
It would be rather difficult to say how many there are in each unit.


AID FOR MUNICIPAL AIRPORT, LA SARRE, QUE.
Mr. Laprise: Has the government contributed financially or otherwise to the construction of the municipal airport at La Sarre in the riding of Chapleau and, if so, does the government intend to make further expenditures for the development of that airport? Mr. Cantin: No.
(Text):,


CONTRACT FOR PENAL INSTITUTION, SPRINGHILL, N.S.
Mr. Coates: Will a contract be called for the construction of a young offenders medium security penal institution, to be located at Springhill, Nova Scotia, and. if so, when?
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Mr. Macdonald:: It is expected that tenders will be called for the construction of a young offenders correctional institution to be located at Springhill, Nova Scotia, about October 1963.


WHARF REPAIRS, LAKE WINNIPEG
Mr. Slefanson: 1.	Were any extensions or repairs made to wharves on lake Winnipeg, Manitoba, between March 31, 1958, and April 8, 1963, and, if so, where, and at what cost?
2.	Are any extensions or repairs to be made to wharves on lake Winnipeg this year and, if so, where, and at what cost?


Hubert Badanai: 1. Yes: at Armes, $13,927; Gimli, $197,949; Grand Rapids, $5,817; Gull harbour, $46,494; Hnausa, $275; Matheson Island, $600; Matheson island landing, $936; Pine Dock, $4,288; Rabbit Point, $508; Red River Mouth, $28,273; Victoria Beach, $13,148; Winnipeg Beach, $8,084.
2. Yes; at Gimli and Victoria Beach. The total cost is expected to be about $10,000.


WHARF CONSTRUCTION, LAKE WINNIPEG
Mr. Slefanson: 1.	Were any new wharves constructed on lake Winnipeg, Manitoba, between March 31, 1958 and April 8, 1963, and, if so, where, and at what cost?
2.	Are any new wharves scheduled to be built on lake Winnipeg this year and if so, where, and at what cost?


Hubert Badanai: 1. Yes: Berens river, $60,044 (not completed); Matheson island landing, $63,499; McBeth point, $82,375.
2. No. The wharf at Berens river will be completed at a cost of $300.


ROADS TO RESOURCES PROGRAM, MANITOBA
Mr. Slefanson: 1.	When did the federal government sign the agreement for the roads to resources program with the province of Manitoba?
2.	What roads have been built to date: what is the cost of each?
3.	How has the cost been shared?
4.	What roads, if any, are scheduled to be built this year?


Mr. Turner:: 1. December 21, 1959.
2 and 4. The following roads are to be constructed under the roads to resources agreement between Canada and the province of Manitoba:
Road	Estimated Cost
Thompson road	$5,200,000
Osborne lake road	500,000
Oiseau lake road
(completed)	170,000 (final cost	not
yet available)
Central Manitoba road system	1,500,000
Gods lake road	12,000,000

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The provincial government has advised that work has commenced on all these roads and that the Oiseau lake road has been completed. The agreement requires the province to complete construction of these projects by March 31, 1966, but the planning and scheduling of construction is a provincial responsibility under the agreement.
3.	The federal government pays 50 per cent of the costs incurred and submitted by the province as provided by the agreement.


HARBOUR IMPROVEMENTS, SYDNEY, N.S.
Mr. Muir (Cape Breton: North and Victoria):
What major harbour improvements are planned for Sydney harbour by the Department of Transport?


Jean-Charles Cantin: None this year.
(Translation):


* HARBOUR IMPROVEMENTS, MONTREAL
Mr. Loiselle: Will the Montreal harbour board soon submit to the world exhibition corporation various projects for the improvement of the Montreal harbour and if so, will such projects include the building of a marine terminal?


Jean-Charles Cantin: The national harbours board advises that projects for the improvement of Montreal harbour are being carried out continuously. Such projects are, in accordance with normal procedure, submitted to the government for inclusion in the estimates. The provision of improved passenger facilities at Montreal is contemplated.


MARINE TERMINAL, MONTREAL HARBOUR
Mr. Loiselle: 1.	Is the government considering the construction of a marine terminal in Montreal harbour in the near future?
2.	Has the city of Montreal been approached recently in this connection?
3.	Is the Montreal harbour board in possession of plans and specifications pertaining to the proposed marine terminal?


Jean-Charles Cantin: The national harbours board advises:
1.	The provision of improved passenger facilities at Montreal is contemplated.
2.	No.
3.	Preliminary plans are being developed by the national harbours board's staff at Montreal for evaluation by the N.H.B.


INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT BANK LOANS, COMPTON-FRONTENAC CONSTITUENCY
Mr. Latulippe: How many individuals and organizations in the constituency of Compton-Frontenac have obtained loans from the industrial development bank during the fiscal year ending September 30, 1962, and what was (a) the number of loans during the year, (b) the total amount of loans granted during the year (c) the number of borrowers at the end of the year (d) the amount outstanding, or commitments, at the end of the year?


Edgar John Benson: The information requested is not available. Classification of loans by provinces appears in the industrial development bank annual report for September 30, 1962, pages 16 and 17.
(Text) :


THREATS TO WEST COAST FISHERIES
Mr. Barnett: With reference to the statement of the Prime
Minister as recorded on page 621 of the House of Commons debates on Tuesday, June 4, 1963, what are the "indications" that Canada's west coast fisheries may soon be threatened?


Mr. Davis:: The sentence "There are indications also that Canada's west coast fisheries may soon be threatened" refers to the general great expansion of high seas fishing by many nations of the world, and particularly to activity for some time in the not too distant waters of the Bering sea.
[Later:)
On the orders of the day:


Mr. T. S. Barnett (Comox-Albemi):: Mr. Speaker, the other day I asked a question of the Prime Minister requesting him to tell me what the indications were that Canada's west coast fisheries may soon be threatened. The Prime Minister suggested that if I put my question on the order paper he would give me an answer, which I did, and I have received an answer today. Now I would like to ask the Prime Minister if I put a further question on the order paper, will he be willing to explain what he means by "activities for some time in the not too distant waters of the Bering sea"?


Right Hon. L. B. Pearson (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, if the hon. gentleman will make his question more specific. I will give a more specific answer.


GLASSCO COMMISSION-METHODS AND PERSONNEL
Mr. Fisher: Has the Minister of National Defence received any representations from anyone regarding the methods and personnel used by the Glassco commission in investigating and reporting on the service colleges and, if so, when, from whom, and to what effect?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: No.


FORT WILLIAM LAWYERS HANDLING N.H.A. LOANS
Mr. Fisher: 1.	As of June 1, 1963, what lawyers are listed with C.M.H.C. at Fort William as eligible for handling N.H.A. loans?
2.	Have there been changes in the list in the past two months and, if so, what are the changes?


Mr. Garland:: 1 and 2.
The Minister of Justice provides legal services to Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation, including the provision of qualified and competent legal agents to perform locally required legal work. Assignments are made as legal services are required from time to time. In order to avoid loss of time to the public, occasionally names of legal agents are submitted in advance to the corporation as its requirements are on a daily basis.


VIENNA, ONT., POST OFFICE
[Stage Direction]
Question No. 350
Mr. McBain:: Is it the intention of the government to build a post office at Vienna, Ontario, this year?


Mr. Denis:: No. This is a revenue post office, group 24, where the postmaster is responsible for the provision of the premises as part of his remuneration.


LIGHTHOUSE PAINTING, PORT BURWELL, ONT.
Mr. McBain: Is it the intention of the government to give immediate consideration to painting the wooden lighthouse at Port Burwell, Ontario?


Jean-Charles Cantin: It is not the intention of the government to give immediate consideration to painting the wooden lighthouse at Port Burwell, Ontario. This light has been discontinued and it is planned to declare the building surplus to Crown Assets Disposal Corporation.


REPAIRS TO HARBOUR WALL, PORT STANLEY, ONT.
Mr. McBain: Does the government plan to build any sheet-steel piling to the east inner harbour wall at Port Stanley, Ontario, during the present fiscal year?


Hubert Badanai: No, not during the present fiscal year.


TORONTO
Mr. Scott: 1.	During the years 1959, 1960, 1961, and 1962 were any requests made to the government by the municipality of metropolitan Toronto for financial assistance to be made available for the purposes of the metropolitan corporation building and/or acquiring premises to be made available for senior citizens' housing?
2.	If so, in each year, how many requests were made, by whom were they made, and briefly, what was the nature of each request, and for which specific project was the request made?
Questions
3.	What replies were given to such requests?
4.	How much financing has been made available to the municipality of metropolitan Toronto in the above years for these purposes?


John Richard Garland: The below listed answer applies in so far as Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation is concerned.
1.	Yes.
2.	Eleven such requests were made by the Metro Toronto Housing Company Limited. The nature of each request was for a limited dividend loan under the provisions of section 16 of the N.H.A. to assist with the construction of a project to provide accommodation for elderly persons. The specific requests were made for the following projects:
Name of Project	No. of Amount
Units of Loan
Woodbine-Merrill project West Acres project Brimley road project
River street project Cosburn street project
Scarlett road project King and High streets project
Acquisition and conversion of Hemus development project Warden avenue project Jane and Wilson streets project Thistletown project
42	$ 210,258
96	567,675
201	1,093,429
25	128,200
201	1,102,950
47	271,620
31	170,377
154	847,170
392	2,204,000
406

3.	Loans were approved for nine of these projects and two are still under consideration viz. the Jane and Wilson and Thistletown projects.
4.	Answered by 2 above.


RALSTON, ALTA.  CROWN OWNED RESIDENCES
Mr. Olson: 1.	What was the total cost of constructing the crown owned residences in the village of Ralston Alberta?
2.	What is the total amount of rent collected on these residences?


Louis-Joseph-Lucien Cardin: 1. $1,694,789.
2. $10,769 per month.


ROADS TO RESOURCES PROJECTS, SASK.
Mr. Korchinski: 1.	What projects have been undertaken in Saskatchewan under the roads to resources program?
2.	What is the total mileage of these projects?
3.	What is the federal government's share to date of these projects?

Questions
4.	Have requests been received from the Saskatchewan government to alter the original agreement?
5.	What alternative routes have been suggested to the present agreement?
6.	Have requests been received from the Saskatchewan government to extend the present program?
7.	What route, if any, is suggested under the extension?


John Napier Turner: 1. The Uranium City road, the Hanson lake road, the Otosquen road and the Prince Albert bridge.
2.	811 miles.
3.	The province of Saskatchewan has submitted claims totalling $10,078,751. The federal government has contributed 50 per cent of this total or $5,039,376.60.
4.	Yes.
5.	In May, 1961, the province suggested that the Uranium City road be rerouted easterly by way of Reindeer lake rather than by way of Cree lake as stipulated in the agreement.
6.	No.
7.	Not applicable.


ASSISTANCE TO VOCATIONAL SCHOOL CONSTRUCTION, SASK.
Mr. Korchinski: 1.	To March 31, 1963, what amount of money has the federal government contributed to the province of Saskatchewan toward the construction of vocational training schools?
2.	Where have these schools been built, and what is the amount of federal contribution to each?


Mr. Byrne:: 1. From April 1, 1961, the effective date of the technical and vocational training agreement concluded with the province of Saskatchewan under authority of the Technical and Vocational Training Assistance Act, to March 31, 1963, the federal government made contributions of $4,960,676.16 toward the construction and equipment of technical and vocational schools and institutes in that province.
2. The federal contributions toward the capital costs of each of these schools and institutes were as follows:
Location
Melfort Moose Jaw Moose Jaw
Prince Albert
Regina
Regina
Saskatoon
Swift Current
Name of School
Federal Contribution
Melfort composite high school
Moose Jaw technical high school
South Saskatchewan technical institute (trade and technical)
Prince Albert technical high school
Balfour technical high school (vocational)
Coronation collegiate institute (composite)
Central Saskatchewan tech, institute (trade)
Swift Current collegiate (composite high school)

$	44,100.00
Total federal contribution	$4,960,676.16


FARM CREDIT LOANS, MACKENZIE CONSTITUENCY
[Stage Direction]
Question No. 369
Mr. Korchinski:: 1.	Since the Farm Credit Corporation has come
into being, how many loans have been granted to March 31, 1963, in the electoral district of Mackenzie?
2.	What is the total amount of loans granted?


Mr. Beer:: 1. 418.
2. $3,318,100.


FOREST ACCESS ROADS, SASK.
Mr. Korchinski: 1.	How many miles of forest access roads were constructed in Saskatchewan?
2.	What are the locations of these roads?
3.	What is the federal cost of these roads?
4.	Are they any plans for construction of more roads in 1963?


Mr. Nicholson:: Mr. Speaker, in connection with this question, No. 370, I would point out that the first part of the question and of necessity the second part are very general in character. I am informed by officials of my department that to prepare a complete answer would involve the expenditure of some $3,200. I think that the house could find a better use for the $3,200 so I have limited the answer to the period from 1957 to the present time.
1.	Since 1957-58 the federal government has contributed to the construction of approximately 514 miles of forest access roads and trails in Saskatchewan.
2.	The following is a list of the sharable cost roads and trails; the names indicating the location.

Dore lake road, Montreal river road and bridge, Emmilene-Montreal river road, Armit road, Fir river road, Bittern lake road, Muskeg lake road, Bigstone road, Spinook bridge, Portage La Loche road, Nemeiben road and bridge, Fox point road, Sipanok channel bridge, Turnburry road, Helldiver lake road, McBride lake road, Chitek lake road, Keely lake road, He a La Crosse road, miscellaneous bridges, Big sandy road, Stewart lake trail, Porcupine hills trail, Niska lake trail, Little Bear south trail, Little Bear north trail, Fishing lake road, Clearwater valley trail, McLean lake trail, Descharme lake trail, Dillon-Sandy Point trail, Clear lake trail, Michelle-Dillon road, Kazon lake trail, primeau lake trail, Dipper lake trail, Lac La Plonge trail, Cum-road, Kazon lake trail, Primeau lake trail, Fire guard trail, Potato lake trail, Jan lake road, Amyot lake trail, Michel point road, Kemball lake road, Pine house trail, Apps lake trail Candle lake east road, Candle lake south road, Candle lake road, Green lake road, Waterhen road, Whelan bay road, Canoe lake road, White Swan road, Emma-Christopher road, Division road, Parr hill road, Meadow lake road, Ballantyne bay road, Cowan river bridge, Lac des Isles road, Shoal lake road, Strong pine road.
3.	Up to March 31, 1963 the total federal contribution amounted to $872,697.67.
4.	Yes.
Estimated
Provincial
Expenditures
Dore lake road-20 miles	$115,000
Strong pine road-4 miles	30,000
Waterhen-Lac des Isles road-
7 miles	15,000
Hill lake road-0.5 miles	2,000
Northern pine-Pierce lake
road-2.5 miles	12,000
La Loche road-25 miles	45,000
Duck mountain road-3 miles	4,000
Candle lake-White Swan road-
5 miles	35,000
Pasquia hills road-15 miles	50,000
Wildnest, Hanson lake, Tulabi, and Limestone roads-10 miles 140,000


WINTER WORKS PROGRAM
Mr. Beaule: 1.	Is the purpose of the winter works program to provide work for the unemployed or to assist the municipalities in a roundabout way?
2.	When municipalities undertake winter work with government aid, are they obliged to carry out such work as economically as possible?
3.	Are there any agreements whereby municipalities have to use as much labour as possible instead of the machinery they have available?
4.	What was the aggregate cost of winter works carried out last year?
5.	What was the cost of labour for these projects?
6.	What was the federal government's share?
28902-5-60J
Questions
7.	What was the value of winter work carried out in the city of Quebec last year?
8.	What was the total cost of labour?
9.	What was the federal government's share in these works?


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: 1. The purpose of the municipal winter works incentive program is to encourage municipalities to create additional winter employment through carrying out needed public works projects which would not be undertaken in the absence of the program.
2.	There should be no difference between the method of carrying out projects under the program and the method of carrying out regular municipal undertakings other than the timing of the work. It is expected that municipalities will carry out projects as economically as possible.
3.	No.
4.	$291,055,000.*
5.	$91,136,000.*
6.	$45,165,000.*
7.	$2,822,000.*
8.	$1,032,000.*
9.	$516,000.*
*Preliminary estimates.


MAN DAYS LOST, 1962
Mr. Beaule: 1. How many man days were lost last year because of labour disputes?
2. How many man days were lost last year because of unemployment?


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: 1. There were 311 strikes and lockouts in Canada during 1962. These work stoppages involved 74,332 workers for a total of 1,417,900 man days.
2. The average number of unemployed persons in 1962 was estimated to be 391,000. On the basis of 250 working days per year, the total working time lost through unemployment in 1962 was 97,750,000 map days.



TORONTO


Mr. Scott: In each of the years 1959, 1960, 1961, and 1962 were any requests received by the government from the city of Toronto or the municipality of metropolitan Toronto for financial assistance for slum clearance projects in the city of Toronto and/ or the municipality of Toronto and, if so, in each of the respective years (a) what requests were received (b) for what purposes (c) in what particular areas (d) how much money was committed by the government for these projects (e) what are the particulars of each project, the area and the amount involved?


John Richard Garland: A request from the city of Toronto for federal assistance under the National Housing Act for a slum clearance project was received in 1959 followed by a similar request in 1960.

Questions
Ca) The request received in 1959 was lor the Moss Park project.
The request received in 1960 was for clearance of part of an area known as Alexandra Park.
(b)	These requests were for federal contributions under section 23 of the National Housing Act to cover 50 per cent of the cost of acquiring and clearing these areas.
(c)	The Moss Park area is bounded by Shuter, Parliament, Queen and Jarvis streets and contains 16.4 acres.
The Alexandra Park area is bounded by Bathurst, Dundas, Spadina and Queen streets.
(d)	The amount of federal contribution for the Moss Park project is estimated at $4,250,000. This represents half of the cost of acquiring and clearing the property. The federal government will receive 50 per cent of any recoveries from the disposal of the cleared land.
No commitments have been made with respect to the Alexandra Park project.
(e)	For particulars as to the location, size and estimated cost of the Moss Park project, see (a), (b), (c) and (d) above. This was a blighted area of mixed residential, commercial and industrial uses. All of the properties have since been acquired by the city of Toronto and substantial clearance has taken place. A redevelopment plan has been prepared to provide a site for a housing project of 902 units on the easterly portion of the project which is being financed with a loan of $7.8 million under section 16 of the National Housing Act. Land in the centre of the project has been made available to the city of Toronto to enlarge Moss Park. A block facing on Jarvis street is being transferred to the Department of National Defence for the construction of an armoury. The city's proposal for the redevelopment of the Alexandra Park area was reviewed by officials of Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation. An advisory committee composed of representatives from the city, the province and Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation was appointed to study the proposal in detail. A report of the study has since been completed and at the present time is being reviewed by the municipal authorities.



SCARBOROUGH, ONT.-SENIOR CITIZENS HOUSING PROJECT

Mr. Scoti: 1.	Is the government making available financial assistance to the senior citizen's housing project located on Warden avenue at St. Clair avenue east in the township of Scarborough and, if so, what is the nature of the contribution being made by the government to this project?
2.	Does the government impose any restrictions as to the requirements necessary for admittance to this project by prospective tenants?


John Richard Garland: 1. Yes. An N.H.A. section 16 limited dividend loan in the amount of $2,204,000 has been approved to assist in the construction of the Warden avenue project.
2. Yes. Tenants must be 60 years of age or over and the accommodation is directed to persons of low income. The minimum and maximum annual incomes for ingoing tenants are $888 and $2,400 for the bachelor apartments and $1,188 and $3,300 for the one bedroom units.



*CROP INSURANCE PROGRAM

Mr. Pigeon: At the present time what provinces take advantage of the crop insurance program, and for each province, what federal benefits have been received?


Bruce Silas Beer: The provinces of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Prince Edward Island are presently operating crop insurance programs under agreements with Canada as provided by the Crop Insurance Act.
Federal contributions made to the provinces to June 10, 1963, under the Crop Insurance Act are as follows:	Manitoba $624,472.00,
Saskatchewan $107,626.00, and Prince Edward Island $10,686.00.
In addition, Canada loaned the province of Manitoba, as provided for under the act, $479,173.00 to assist in the payment of indemnities incurred in the 1961 crop year.
[DOT][DOT]^FEDERAL SHARE OF WINTER WORKS COSTS


Mr. Pigeon: What is the total amount paid by the federal government to each of the provinces since the coming into force of the program under which it underwrites 50 per cent of the labour costs on winter works undertaken by municipalities?


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: Total amount paid by federal government to each of the provinces since the coming into force of the program under which it underwrites 50 per cent of the labour costs on winter works undertaken by municipalities:
Province	Total Paid
Newfoundland	$ 619,719.57
Prince Edward Island	123,618.66
Nova Scotia	950,654.68
New Brunswick	1,224,999.14
Quebec	25,794,794.67
Ontario	15,332,759.14
Manitoba	2,260,859.25
Saskatchewan	4,523,628.46
Alberta	8,582,659.09
British Columbia	9,725,929.42
Yukon	5,199.11
Northwest Territories	30,627.94
Indian Bands	225,260.56



$ 69,400,709.69  QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS CONTRACTS TO ENAMEL AND HEATING PRODUCTS LTD.

['1.\tWhat steps, in detail, does the federal department of labour follow in preparing the fair wage schedules attached to the tendering and contract documents for government contracts?\n2.\tIn what ways does the federal department of labour try to ensure that the prevailing labour rates, hours of work, and other conditions of labour that are in effect for the type of work specified in the locality concerned, are actually up to date?\n3.\tHas the federal department of labour received complaints from either contractors or trade unions or any other organizations in the past 18 months about this particular problem, outlined in question 2, and, if so, what are the organizations, and on what date did they make their representations?']
Yvon Dupuis: Return tabled.



Mr. Howard: For each fiscal year since 1957, how much money has been spent by (a) the Indian affairs branch
(b)	the Indian and northern health services branch
(c)	the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources for (i) administration of Indian affairs matters and (ii) payments to Indians by classification?


Yvon Dupuis: Return tabled.


SAMPLES TO DETERMINE RADIOACTIVE FALL-OUT
Mr. Scoll: 1.	To what extent does the government conduct tests upon food samples, plants, soils, crops, fish, game and livestock to determine the level and extent of radioactive fall-out?
2.	How many such samples are taken, and what crops, foods, livestock, soils, fish, and game are included in such samples?
3.	What are the areas in Canada from which such samples are taken?
4.	What is the frequency with which such samples are taken?
5.	Where are tests on such samples performed, and by whom are they performed?
6.	How many people are engaged in performing such tests?


Yvon Dupuis: Return tabled.


FAIR WAGE SCHEDULES, FEDERAL CONTRACTS
Mr. Fisher: 1.	What steps, in detail, does the federal department of labour follow in preparing the fair wage schedules attached to the tendering and contract documents for government contracts?
2.	In what ways does the federal department of labour try to ensure that the prevailing labour rates, hours of work, and other conditions of labour that are in effect for the type of work specified in the locality concerned, are actually up to date?
3.	Has the federal department of labour received complaints from either contractors or trade unions or any other organizations in the past 18 months about this particular problem, outlined in question 2, and, if so, what are the organizations, and on what date did they make their representations?



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS


[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 6-Mr. Orlikow:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid
Motions for Papers
before this house a copy of all correspondence, telegrams and other documents exchanged between the federal government or any agency or branch thereof and any other government, person or organization since January 1, 1959, relating to the proposal by the government of Manitoba or the Manitoba hydroelectric board to move the Indians from their present reserves at Cedar Land and Moose Lake to make way for the Grand Rapids power development.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 7-Mr. Howard:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all reports of Mr. Joseph Dreaver who was employed to survey the Indians of Saskatchewan in respect of their reactions and recommendations concerning the findings of the joint committee of the Senate and House of Commons on Indian affairs.
Mr. Favreau:: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Skeena had already agreed to have this motion stand until today. Because I would like to check further on the status of the person who is alleged to have prepared this report I would appreciate it very much if the hon. member would agree to stand his motion again until next Wednesday.


Mr. Howard:: That is quite agreeable, Mr. Speaker.


Guy Favreau: Thank you.
Motion stands.


Guy Favreau: Mr. Speaker, would it be possible for me to revert to motion No. 6?


Some hon. Members:: No; that was passed.


Mr. Speaker:: I think it would be possible on orders of the day.
(Translation):



SITE FOR WORLD FAIR

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 12-Mr. Pigeon:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of all correspondence and reports on the site of the 1967 world fair exchanged between the government and the following other governments or bodies concerned: (a) international joint commission, (b) St. Lawrence seaway authority (United States and Canada), (c) St. Lawrence river pilots' association, (d) national harbours board, (e) Canadian National Railways, (f) Quebec hydro, (g) city of Verdun, (h) Canadian association for the protection of birds, (i) Department of Transport, (j) town of St. Lambert, (k) government of the province of Quebec, (1) Canadian World Exhibition Corporation.
He said: I agree to let it stand for a few days, until the minister is ready.
(Text):
Mr. Pickersgill:: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman has agreed to let the motion stand, and I appreciate it very much.
Motion stands.

Motions for Papers (Translation):



POST OFFICE CUSTOMS BUILDINGS, ST. HYACINTHS, QUE.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 13-Mr. Ricard:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of all correspondence, telegrams and other documents exchanged between the government or any of its agencies or departments and any municipal government, individual or organizations, since January 1, 1960, in respect of any proposal to purchase the post office building and the customs building in the city of St. Hyacinthe.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 14-Mr. Ricard:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of all correspondence, telegrams and other documents exchanged between the government or any of its agencies or departments and any provincial or municipal government, individuals or organizations, since January 1, 1958, in respect of the construction of a penal institution in the parish of St. Pie de Bagot.
Mr. Chevrier:: Mr. Speaker, would the hon. member allow me to have this motion stand for the moment?


Mr. Ricard:: Agreed.
Motion stands.
(Text):



OPINION ON LEGALITY OF IMPORT SURCHARGE ORDER

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 15-Mr. Knowles:
That an order of the house do issue for copies of correspondence or any other documents exchanged between the then prime minister or minister of finance or any other minister of the crown and the deputy attorney general with reference to the legality of the surcharge on imports order, P.C. 1962-902, dated June 24, 1962, and the amendment thereto, P.C. 1962-987, dated July 11, 1962, and the import control list as amended by P.C. 1962-903, dated June 24, 1962.
Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, the files of the Department of Justice do not contain any of the material sought by this motion. My understanding is that the orders in question were made after a discussion between members of the then government and officials of the departments concerned, including the Department of Justice, and that any opinions or views expressed on the legal aspects of the proposed orders were verbal only, contrary to the impression created at the last parliament.


Mr. Knowles:: Mr. Speaker, if there are no written opinions, as we were led to believe was the case, I have no option but to let the motion drop.
Order discharged and motion dropped.



DIRECTOR OF COMPANIES BRANCH

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 16-Mr. Fisher:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of all correspondence relating to the post of director of the companies branch, from July, 1959 to May 17, 1963, exchanged between the civil service commission, ministers of the crown, any applicants for the post, and any other person or persons, including those who hold provincial offices.
John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I wonder whether the hon. gentleman would permit this motion to stand until next week. I would like to discuss the wording with him.


Mr. Fisher:: That is agreeable, Mr. Speaker.
Motion stands.



CANADIAN CORPS ASSOCIATION CORRESPONDENCE ON FLAG

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 17-Mr. Mandziuk:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all letters and other communications received by the Prime Minister since April 22, 1963, from the Canadian corps association on the subject of the Canadian flag, and all replies by the Prime Minister or by members of his staff to such communications.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 18-Mr. Howard:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of any contract or agreement between Canadian National Railways and R. F. Welch (B.C.) Limited.
Mr. Mcllraiih:: Mr. Speaker, the document requested is one that has to do with the internal operation of the railway and, as the house knows, it has been the practice not to produce documents which come within that category. I understand that this has been the position taken by all governments since the C.N.R. act was first brought into operation in 1921. Therefore I would ask the hon. member to withdraw his motion.


Frank Howard: It is a very interesting explanation, Mr. Speaker, but I will withdraw the motion.
Order discharged and motion withdrawn. FINANCE



TAXABILITY OF $500 PAYMENT FOR WINTER HOUSE CONSTRUCTION

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Prime Minister a question regarding an answer given yesterday by the Minister of Finance, who said:

A person who purchases the house as a personal residence for himself, where certain situations are not applicable that I will mention in a moment, will receive the $500 payment without income tax consequences.
I should like to ask the Prime Minister on what basis this order was made. Is it a regulation, is it an order in council, or under what circumstances were these various provisions made that are set out at page 883 of Hansard?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, I am not able at the moment to comment on the answer given by my hon. friend in reply to the question asked yesterday, but I will be glad to look into it.


John George Diefenbaker: Possibly the Prime Minister could tell me-he should know this himself-whether any order in council was passed yesterday or the day before to this effect.


Lester Bowles Pearson: I know of no order in council, Mr. Speaker, but I will be glad to look into it.
[Later: ]


John George Diefenbaker: I should like to put a question to the Minister of Finance with regard to an answer he gave yesterday to my hon. friend from Digby-Annapolis-Kings. The question had to do with the $500 bonus to be paid to the first purchaser of a new house. On what basis was that answer given? Does it rest on a regulation which has been passed, or on an order in council?


Mr. Gordon:: When the Minister of Labour announced certain proposals for doing things to provide more jobs this coming winter he included among them a proposal to stimulate the construction of houses during the winter months. The essence of the proposal was that a bonus of $500 should be granted to the first purchaser of any house which was substantially constructed during the winter period. That, obviously, was intended to reduce the construction costs of such a house. The minister of finance asked a question-I am sorry, I should have said "the former minister of finance"; I have been catching bad habits from my colleague the Secretary of State for External Affairs-the hon. member for Digby-Annapolis-Kings asked whether this bonus should be subject to income tax. I asked for time to look into this before replying directly, because I thought there might be some qualifications which should be included in any reply, as turned out to be the case.
Many of these points will be covered in the regulations issued and in the authority asked for in connection with this program, but as the question was a pertinent one and as it might have interfered with the program itself-and after all, the purpose of this program is to provide more jobs next winter
Inquiries of the Ministry -I thought it was proper to give an answer to the hon. member yesterday.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, possibly now, after that circumlocution of the minister, he will answer my question. When he made this statement there was in fact no regulation or order in council?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, may I answer the right hon. gentleman by reminding him that when he brought in government policy with regard to assistance for designated areas some time ago the order in council to that effect was not passed for four months after he had made the announcement in the house.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I can understand the obvious annoyance of the Prime Minister, but I am asking the question of the Minister of Finance. Was there an order in council or a regulation at the time he gave this answer to the house?


Walter Lockhart Gordon: No, Mr. Speaker.

On the orders of the day:


Hon. George C. Nowlan (Digby-Annapolis-Kings):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Prime Minister based on his rather angry interjection of a few minutes ago as the result of a question by the Leader of the Opposition, in which the Prime Minister referred to some order in council which had been passed at some time, the publication of which was delayed. I should like to ask the Prime Minister the subject matter of that order in council, the date of it and the identification of it, so that we can have the material before the house, in view of the insinuations which were contained in the interjection of the Prime Minister.


Lester Bowles Pearson: If my hon. friend will put his good natured question on the order paper I will be glad to answer it.



APPLICATION OF BONUS TO HOUSES IN NORTH

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Erik Nielsen (Yukon):: Mr. Speaker, I
wish to address a question to the Minister of Labour. Can he inform the house whether the $500 bonus for winter house construction applies to winter houses built by or for the Indians and Eskimos in the Canadian north?



REPRESENTATIONS RESPECTING IMPLEMENTATION OF BLADEN REPORT

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Douglas Mason Fisher: I should like to dare to ask the Minister of Finance a question.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.

Inquiries of the Ministry


Douglas Mason Fisher: I should like to ask him whether he could tell us in substance what reply he gave to the automobile component manufacturers who, according to reports, have been visiting him recently with regard to their fears that he may be intending to introduce the recommendations of the Bladen report.


Walter Lockhart Gordon: I shall dare to reply to the hon. member. I do not think I have seen any manufacturers of automobile component parts who have put that question to me.



REPORTED INTENTION TO INCREASE GOLD PRODUCTION SUBSIDY

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Paul Martineau (Pontiac-Temis-camingue):: Mr. Speaker, I would like to address a question to the Minister of Finance. In view of persistent reports appearing in the press that the government may take steps to increase the production subsidy available to Canadian gold producers, which reports have been spurred by the statement made by his colleague the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys, just a few days ago, would he tell the house whether in fact such a step is now contemplated by the government?


Walter Lockhart Gordon: No, Mr. Speaker.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Michael Starr (Ontario):: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Labour whether the statement he made on June 10, as set out in Hansard on page 823, is correct. The statement is as follows:
The municipal winter works incentive program can be expected to do a more effective job in creating additional winter employment as a result of the municipal development loan fund which has already been announced.


Allan Joseph MacEachen: It is not my custom to make statements, Mr. Speaker, which I regard as incorrect.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Mr. MacEwan:: Arrogance.


Michael Starr: Along this same line, Mr. Speaker, I wish to address a question to the Minister of Finance and ask him whether his statement is correct as-


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker-


Some hon. Members:: Sit down.


John Whitney Pickersgill: -I am rising on a point of order.


Some hon. Members:: Order.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I am rising on a point of order. My point of order is that the question period is for the purpose of asking urgent questions which have arisen since the previous day's proceedings, not for the purpose of engaging in debate or seeking to find out whether certain statements which hon. members regard as controversial are correct or not.
It seems to me that if we are to have debates substituted at this time for the business prescribed by the rules of the house we will never get to the business set for the day. Since this point has been raised, I believe it should be settled now.


Michael Starr: On that point of order, Mr. Speaker-


Mr. Speaker:: I should like to reply to the first point which was raised, if I may. Hon. members will realize it is difficult for me to decide on the admissibility of a question until I have heard it. On the other hand, the last two questions asked by the hon. member for Ontario do take on the nature of debate, and I do not think it is right to ask such questions at this time.


Michael Starr: If I may comment on the point of order raised by the Secretary of State, I should like to point out that there is a great deal of urgency about this matter. A program has been announced which is supposed to have an important effect upon our economy and I want to get the facts clear, because in my opinion the statements made by the Minister of Labour and by the Minister of Finance are contradictory. Consequently members of this house and the people of this country cannot appreciate the full significance of what this program means. My question to the Minister of Finance is-


John Whitney Pickersgill: On a point of order-


Michael Starr: My question is whether the statement made-


Mr. Speaker:: I am sorry to interrupt, but I understood the hon. gentleman was arguing a point of order. Now he has reverted to asking a question. However, may I draw the attention of hon. members to Beauchesne, page 148, subsection (t):
It is not permissible to impugn the accuracy of information conveyed to the house by a minister.


John George Diefenbaker: On a point of order, there is no question of impugning the accuracy of information. It is a question of trying to ascertain which of two statements, which are contradictory, is the truth.


Michael Starr: In fairness to members of this house I think this situation should be clarified

so that we and the country may know exactly what the policy of the government is in this respect.


Mr. Speaker:: May I suggest to the hon. member that he put his question somewhat in this fashion-"Is it correct to say-" and so on.


Michael Starr: Then I will ask the Minister of Finance whether his statement was correct when he said, in answer to the hon. member for Comox-Alberni:
I did not mean that by saying they would dovetail. I really meant that the winter works program and this program will be administered in such a way that they will not be overlapping.


Walter Lockhart Gordon: It would seem to me that the answer to this question should be eminently clear even to the hon. member for Ontario. If he had been here, and if we had made a little more progress in getting the resolution through yesterday, we could have got on to the bill and the whole subject would have been clarified.


Stanley Howard Knowles: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it not correct that the rule that there should not be debate on the orders of the day applies to both sides of the house?


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.



MUNICIPAL LOAN FUND


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Michael Starr: Mr. Speaker, I would like to address a question to the Minister of Labour, and ask him whether the municipal development loan fund will be available to municipalities that participate in the winter works incentive program?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: Mr. Speaker, the answer to that question is yes.



PARLIAMENT HILL


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. David Orlikow (Winnipeg North):: Mr. Speaker, I would like to address a question to the Minister of Labour arising out of an answer he gave yesterday. Can the minister report yet on whether people working on parliament hill at the repairs to the west block are in fact working 10 hours a day without overtime pay? If this is so, how does it square with the federal law regarding wages and hours of work? I ask the question because I for one do not like to walk through a picket line, as I did yesterday and today, to come to this building.
Inquiries of the Ministry


Allan Joseph MacEachen: Mr. Speaker, I promised the hon. member for Kootenay West that I would look into this matter and provide a more detailed answer today. I shall do so now in reply to his question of yesterday and the question today of my hon. friend.
Because of emergency conditions entailed by the convening of the NATO conference in the west block last month an overtime permit was issued authorizing a maximum 10-hour day and 60-hour week, valid for the period February 18, 1963 to May 17, 1963. This permit required the payment of premium overtime rates of not less than one and one half times the rates of pay required under the governing labour conditions of the contract to all employees for all hours worked in excess of eight per day and 44 per week.
An inspection of the records of the prime contractor indicated that the governing labour conditions were being fully observed. Complaints, however, were received respecting the wage rates and hours of work for employees of a subcontractor and an adjustment of $6,304.35 was found to be necessary. This money is being recovered by the Department of Labour and will be paid out in due course to the workers concerned. A further inspection will be made of this contract to see that our fair labour conditions are being fully observed.


Mr. H. W. Herridge (Kootenay West):: supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Would the minister admit that this demonstrates the value of an active opposition?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: It certainly demonstrates the value of an active government.



DEFENCE PRODUCTION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
David Orlikow: should like to direct a question to the Minister of Defence Production. Has the minister received a complaint from Mr. Stewart Geddes to the effect that he was discharged from Canadair after seven years employment because the security division of the Department of Defence Production informed the company that he was a security risk, and that since then he has been unable to get other positions which were offered him, because the same information has been furnished to other companies? If so, is the minister taking steps to investigate these charges by Mr. Geddes?

Inquiries of the Ministry


Hon. C. M. Drury (Minister of Defence Production):: I thank the hon. member for notice of his intention to ask this question. I did receive a letter from Mr. Geddes late last month indicating that he had been asked to resign from Canadair limited in Montreal just over a year ago. I have consulted with officials of Canadair limited, and am informed that Mr. Geddes was asked to resign, partly because of a cut-back owing to a reorganization of senior technical staff and partly because the company considered it good management to retain other senior engineers in preference to Mr. Geddes.
As to the difficulties which Mr. Geddes has had in obtaining other employment, I can only say that neither the Department of Defence Production nor the Royal Canadian Mounted Police has been asked to provide to any firm, or individual, information concerning the security status of Mr. Geddes. I should add that it is not the practice of either the Department of Defence Production or of Canadian government organizations concerned with security to furnish security information, except in response to a request relating to actual or prospective employees whose work calls for a security clearance.



DOMINION-PROVINCIAL RELATIONS REFERENCE TO PROVINCES OF MUNICIPAL LOAN LEGISLATION

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. L. J. Pigeon (Jolielle-L'Assompiion-Montcalm):: I should like to put a direct question to the Prime Minister. In view of the statement made yesterday by Mr. Pierre Laporte, Quebec municipal affairs minister, that municipalities of that province must not turn to Ottawa for help, is it the right hon. gentleman's intention to refer to the provinces the resolution on loans to municipalities before a further study of it is made in this house?


Lester Bowles Pearson: No. We propose to proceed with the discussion, and, I hope, the acceptance of this resolution by this house.
(Translation):



ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Gerard Girouard (Labelle):: My question is directed to the Minister of Justice.
In view of the increasing number of fraudulent bankruptcies in Canada, does the Department of Justice intend to look more closely after the enforcing of the Bankruptcy Act in this country?
[Mr. Orlikow.l
(Text):


Mr. Speaker:: This is a question for the order paper.
(Translation):



QUEBEC-LINK BETWEEN F.L.Q. SUSPECTS AND CUBAN COMMUNISTS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Gerard Chapdelaine (Sherbrooke):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Justice.
In view of the recent developments concerning the investigation of the F.L.Q. and the reports published in certain American magazines and newspapers, could the minister tell the house whether he has received information to the effect that there is a close link between certain members of the F.L.Q. and the communist Cuban revolutionaries?


Lionel Chevrier: The answer is no, Mr. Speaker.
(Text) :



TRANS-CANADA AIR LINES WINNIPEG MAINTENANCE BASE    MEETING WITH MANITOBA DELEGATION

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Gordon Churchill (Winnipeg South Centre):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Minister of Transport whether arrangements have been made for a meeting with a delegation from Manitoba to confer with representatives of the government concerning the retention of the overhaul and maintenance base of T.C.A. in Winnipeg. If so, when and where will the meeting be held, and which members of the cabinet will be meeting the delegation?


George James McIlraith: Mr. Speaker, I had no notice of this question, but I can assure the hon. member that such arrangements have been made. I hesitate to put the precise time on the record, but it is in the near future; the precise hour and date have been fixed. The delegation will be met by the transport committee of the cabinet, and the meeting will take place in one of the committee rooms in the House of Commons. Some days ago advice to this effect was sent to the minister in the Manitoba government who is heading the delegation.


Stanley Howard Knowles: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Will the members of parliament from Manitoba be permitted to sit in when this delegation appears before the government?


George James McIlraith: Mr. Speaker, they will be most welcome to sit in. I hope, though, that they will not follow the precedent of an earlier meeting which took place in somewhat similar circumstances on the same

subject; I would hope that this time we will be able to achieve a somewhat more satisfactory result than was achieved on that occasion. I hope that this time we will get a happier conclusion to the meeting, but in any event I want to make it clear that any hon. members who care to come in, subject to the room being large enough to hold them, are most welcome.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Speaker, will it be permissible for the rest of the hon. members of this house now to enter into the debate which has been opened by the Minister of Transport?



NATIONAL DEFENCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. T. C. Douglas (Burnaby-Coquillam):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to address a question to the Minister of National Defence. This morning's Globe and Mail carries an article which says:
The air defence commands of the Royal Canadian Air Force and U.S. air force have signed an agreement enabling U.S. interceptors to use 22 Canadian airfields more readily and with greater safety.
May I ask the minister whether this is correct and if it is the matter about which he told the house on May 29 he had received no official communication?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Mr. Speaker, I saw the press report in this morning's newspaper relating to an alleged agreement between the commanders of the air defence commands of Canada and the United States enabling U.S. interceptors to use 22 Canadian airfields. I should like to state that this story had no foundation in fact whatever.
An agreement was signed in November, 1962 by the two commanders concerned, but this agreement referred solely to the application of peace time air traffic control procedures with respect to the interceptors of one country flying in the air space of the other, and the provision of supporting services when these aircraft are being serviced at bases in the other country. This concerns flights which take place in peace time in connection with air defence training exercises which are provided for under the NORAD agreement, and has no relationship to the question of dispersal of United States air defence squadrons, to which I referred on May 29 in the house.
28902-5-614
Inquiries of the Ministry TRADE



INCREASED IMPORTS FROM CHINA TO STIMULATE WHEAT SALES

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. R. R. Southam (Moose Mountain):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question I should like to direct to the Minister of Trade and Commerce. In view of the widespread concern expressed in the past few days by farm organizations and writers in farm papers with respect to the tough bargaining attitude of red China in connection with further wheat purchases by that country from Canada, could the minister advise this house, in view of his government's general advocacy of free trade, whether it is the intention of the present government to accept large increases in Chinese goods in order to help stimulate further wheat sales to that country?


Hon. Mitchell Sharp (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: Mr. Speaker, if this question is in order may I say to the hon. gentleman that we are conducting these negotiations in a way which I hope will have a successful outcome. I do not know what the results will be in terms of the particular matter raised by the hon. member.


Mr. Jack McIntosh (Swift Current-Maple Creek):: A supplementary question. May I ask the Minister of Trade and Commerce, in view of what my hon. friend for Moose Mountain has said, and also in view of the report in yesterday's paper that Australia has sold her entire surplus of a record 1962-63 crop to red China and Japan, whether he can assure the growers of grain in this country that Canada will retain her share of the world market, even to the extent of giving ministerial assistance to the delegates over there at the present time, as was done by the former administration?


Mitchell William Sharp: I can assure the hon. member that we are doing our very best to recover the position we occupied some time ago. When I took over this portfolio our shipments and sales were low.



OIL-REPORTED U.S. INTENTION TO RESTRICT IMPORTS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. H. Horner (Acadia):: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce, which stems from an article in today's Globe and Mail headed "U.S. Revises Oil Import Quotas". The article goes on to say:
-there would be no further rise in Canadian shipments for the remainder of 1963-
-and it says the formula setting the ceiling has been changed and the change will go

Inquiries of the Ministry into effect on July 1. Is the minister prepared to discuss this with the United States authorities, because it will have a very detrimental effect on the economy of Alberta and Saskatchewan?


Mitchell William Sharp: Mr. Speaker, may I assure the hon. gentleman I have already discussed this subject quite thoroughly with the American authorities when I was in Washington the other day. The change that was made was one that I hope I had some influence upon, which enlarged the market for oil in the United States. I would like to supplement this, sir, by a statement that might be useful to the hon. member.
The amendments to the proclamation affect only districts I to IV of the United States, which is roughly that area of the United States lying east of the Rocky mountains. They do not affect district V, which is the west coast of the United States, and which takes more than half of our exports.
Reading the amendments to the proclamation in the light of my consultation with the United States authorities, to which I have already referred, I anticipate that our exports to districts I to IV for the second half of 1963 will be at approximately the same level as that of the first six months.
We have made arrangements for further consultation in relation to our future exports of oil and, as the house is aware, we have proposed to our American friends that joint studies be initiated concerning all forms of energy. I look to preliminary discussions being held in the near future to establish the guidelines for these studies.



AGRICULTURE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. A. D. Hales (Wellington South):: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Agriculture. On May 31 the minister said in answer to a question in the house that it was too early to say whether or not the quota on turkeys coming into Canada from the United States would be lifted as a result of trade negotiations at Geneva. I wonder if the minister is now in a position to make a statement?


Hon. Harry W. Hays (Minister of Agriculture):: Mr. Speaker, would the hon. member put this question on the order paper, please?



EGGS AND HOGS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Reynold Rapp (Humboldi-Melforl-Tis-dale):: I should like to ask the Minister of Agriculture if it is the intention of his department to continue to pay deficiency payments on eggs and hogs on a national weighted price annually, as these payments have been made in the past or is a change contemplated?


Harry William Hays: Mr. Speaker, in reply to the hon. member I may say that we expect to make an announcement in this regard in the very near future.



CROP INSURANCE-APPROVAL OF MANITOBA PLAN FOR REINSURANCE

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Harry William Hays: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Selkirk asked if I had had an opportunity to consider the request from the province of Manitoba relating to the Crop Insurance Act and if I had given approval to the Manitoba plan for the federal government to issue reinsurance.
I may say that proposals for federal reinsurance of part of provincial crop insurance risks were received from the provinces of Manitoba and Saskatchewan in 1961 but no decision with respect to these proposals has been reached to date. The government is studying the provincial proposals and a statement of government policy will be made in due course.



REPORTED INCREASE IN PRICE FOLLOW- ING SUBSIDY REDUCTION

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. L. E. Cardiff (Huron):: I should like to direct two questions to the Minister of Agriculture. Have Canadian exporters raised the price of cheese to the United Kingdom by one cent per pound since April 8, 1960? If so, would the minister tell the house the reason for this increase?


Harry William Hays: The hon. member's question was:
Is It true that exporters had to raise the price of cheese one cent per pound to counteract the reduction in the export subsidy imposed by this government?
The question of the pricing of cheddar cheese on the export market is a matter of negotiations between the exporters and the importers. It is understood that, because of the market situation, the Ontario cheese producers marketing board negotiated a price in Britain approximately one and a quarter

cents higher than that in effect at the close of the 1962 export season. During the 1962 season the price at which cheese was exported by this board to Britain rose two and a quarter cents.
I may add that the price of Canadian cheddar cheese in Britain is about as strong as it has ever been-


Howard Russell MacEwan: The cheese or the price?


Harry William Hays: Hon. members across the way who do not know anything about cheese ought to know that it has to be strong, and the price was strong, too. In so far as the price of milk is concerned for the production of cheese, it is now anywhere from 10 to 27 cents a hundredweight higher than it was a year ago.



FISHERIES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Frank Howard: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Minister of Fisheries whether he can indicate to the house what steps are being taken and what progress is being made toward getting the Soviet union to become a member of the north Pacific fisheries treaty?


Hon. H. J. Robichaud (Minister of Fisheries):: Mr. Speaker, this is a question which concerns the three countries which are taking part in the north Pacific treaty. It is probably being discussed now at the Washington meeting, but I do not believe this is a proper time for me to make any statement on this matter.



INQUIRY OF THE MINISTRY

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Eldon M. Woolliams (Bow River):: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture. When the minister in question took his oath of office on becoming a privy councillor and a member of the cabinet, was he legal mayor of the city of Calgary at that time, and is he still the legal mayor of that city?


Mr. Speaker:: I am sorry, but that question is not in order.



ROYAL CANADIAN MOUNTED POLICE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Speaker, I wish to address a question to the Minister of Justice. My question is based on moral grounds. Has the minister any knowledge of a directive being sent to all
Inquiries of the Ministry commanding officers of R.C.M.P. detachments in Canada instructing them to have dealings with certain garages and so on, to the exclusion of others, with respect to maintenance of vehicles?


Lionel Chevrier: My reply is equally on moral grounds, Mr. Speaker, and it is in the negative.



REQUIREMENT THAT TELEPHONE COMPANY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: On Friday last the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre asked a question relating to the personal history forms required of employees by the Bell Telephone and other provincial telephone companies. His question was whether these were required by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police in order that their files on these employees may be complete.
The answer to that is no. By way of explanation I may say these contractors, including the telephone companies, who are engaged on contracts relating to security and classified work must obtain security clearance for all their employees engaged in such work, but only the employees engaged in such work. The Department of Defence Production requires such contractors to have personal history forms filled out by those employees designated by the contractors as the individuals who will be engaged in this work. This personal history form is the basis of the inquiry by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. In so far as the government is concerned, the completion of these forms is required only of those contractors who have to have access to classified information, and in so far as their employees are concerned the forms are required by the government only in respect of those employees who need to have access to classified information or will be working on classified sites.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I thank the minister for the answer to this question. May I ask, by way of a supplementary question if either the Minister of Defence Production or the Minister of Justice can explain why so many employees who have no connection with anything that is classified or in the realm of security are being required to complete these forms? Could we also be told why the form has not been revised, as was promised by the previous government some months ago?


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: I think the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre will understand that this government accepts no responsibility for promises made by previous governments.

Inquiries of the Ministry


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: Let me qualify that by adding, promises of that nature.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: This form is in the process of being reviewed at the present time and it is hoped that in the not too distant future the results of that review will be made known.
I am unable to answer the question as to why so many employees have been asked to fill out this form without knowing either the names or specific instances in which this has been done in an apparently unrelated way. If the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre will furnish me with names on which I can check I will be very glad to do so.


Mr.  R. Gordon L. Fairweather@Royal: have a supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. I would ask the Minister of Defence Production whether the ideological beliefs of uncles and aunts are taken into consideration when security clearances are given for these employees.


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: Mr. Speaker, as this question regarding ideology relates more to security in general, perhaps the Minister of Justice might respond to it.


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, I do not think the supplementary question deserves a reply-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


An hon. Member:: Arrogance, again.


Lionel Chevrier: -but in any event I would remind the hon. member that anything having to do with uncles and aunts in a particular case to which the hon. member has reference was in 1960 or 1961, long before this government ever took office.


Stanley Howard Knowles: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. When this form is being reviewed, will regard be had to the human rights legislation in the provinces and to the Canadian Bill of Rights, so that questions regarding race will not be included?


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: Mr. Speaker, I think I can give the assurance that in this review all the appropriate legislation will be taken into account.



PENSIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr.  R. Gordon L. Fairweather@Royal: Mr. Speaker, I wonder whether the Prime Minister would answer the question about portable

pensions that I put to him yesterday, which he asked to take as notice, and which has now been given widespread newspaper publicity.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, I apologize to the hon. gentleman. I had hoped to discuss this matter with the minister in question but she is out of town. I will deal with it tomorrow.



LABOUR RELATIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Michael Starr: Mr. Speaker,
I would like to address a question to the Minister of Labour and ask whether he has yet received the Norris inquiry commission report and, if so, is he able to table it?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: Mr. Speaker, I have not received this report yet, and I regret that the information I gave my hon. friend last week turned out to be a bad forecast. The report has not been delivered, and it will be tabled at the earliest possible moment after it is delivered.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, this time I am addressing my question to the Secretary of State. In view of the fact that this house has already referred a number of items to standing committees and in view of promises that have been made that other matters will be referred to standing committees, can the Secretary of State say when the standing committees of the house will be established?


John Whitney Pickersgill: It is my hope, Mr. Speaker, that it will be possible for the chief whip to convene a meeting of the striking committee on the first occasion the six members of that committee can find time to meet together for the purpose of settling the party quotients on the committees, and as soon after as names are supplied a motion will be made to establish the committees.
I regret, and I know the hon. member who asked the question regrets, the fact that the efforts made to reduce the size of these committees and make them more manageable, which were acceptable to three of the four parties in the house were not acceptable to the fourth. The committees would have been

set up earlier, I imagine, if these negotiations had not been carried on. But I am hopeful that when the committee on procedure is set up-and I should like to move the motion to set it up right now if it could be done without debate-this matter can be considered by that committee.


Gordon Minto Churchill: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, the Secretary of State and house leader is attempting in these remarks he makes periodically to cast aspersions on the opposition.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Gordon Minto Churchill: The delay in this matter is solely his. If he would get busy at his job and get these committees set up they would be operating, but he is delaying his task. He will not let his whip meet without him sitting beside the whip or being right at his elbow. Let the whips of the parties get together and they will settle this thing within half an hour.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, on a question of privilege, I believe it is against the rules of the house for one hon. member to make a personal attack on another. I would be the last member of this house to take refuge in that kind of point of privilege.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I do intend to set the facts straight. I am a member of that committee duly appointed by this house and the hon. gentleman under the rules has no right to reflect on a decision of the house. If he understood the rules he would know that. I have as much right to attend that committee as any other member of the committee. It had only one meeting and the only absentee from that meeting was the hon. member for Winnipeg South Centre. Furthermore, I might say that if he would keep a little closer to the elbow of his chief whip they would not disagree publicly in the press about this particular matter.


Mr. Speaker:: Order.


Gordon Minto Churchill: I am rising on a question of privilege, Mr. Speaker.


Mr. Speaker:: I would remind hon. members that the Speaker is here to protect all hon. members.


Gordon Minto Churchill: On a question of privilege, Mr. Speaker, I request your protection against the personal attacks made upon me by the Secretary of State.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member for Simcoe East.
Inquiries of the Ministry



RESUMPTION OF DEBATE ON DEPARTMENT OF INDUSTRY

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. R. N. Thompson (Red Deer):: Mr. Speaker, I would like to address my question to the Secretary of State. In his dual capacity as Secretary of State and government house leader, would he be able to indicate when he expects we might be able to resume the debate on the resolution preceding the legislation to establish a new department of industry?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I would hate to prevent it by prolonging my answer.



NATIONAL PARKS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. P. B. Rynard (Simcoe East):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources whether his department has any plans tc establish a national park on Big Chief island in lake Couchiching? If consideration is being given to such action, has the department any plans to include in the park a memorial burial ground in memory of the Indians of that area who are buried there?


Arthur Laing: Mr. Speaker, at this time I have no knowledge of any such intention but I will take the question as notice and write my hon. friend.
(Translation):



TRANS-CANADA HIGHWAY REQUEST FOR EXTENSION IN MONTREAL AREA

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Speaker, I should like to put to the Minister of Public Works a question relating to the one I asked him earlier. Could the minister tell the house whether the federal government approves the project of the Quebec minister of highways regarding the extension of the trans-Canada highway in metropolitan Montreal?


Hon. J. P. Deschafelets (Minister of Public Works):: Mr. Speaker, the officials of the provincial department of highways and of my department will be meeting very shortly. The plans will be submitted to us and then we will be in a position to reach a decision.

Inquiries of the Ministry
(Text) t



HEALTH AND WELFARE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Prime Minister when he expects to receive the report of the royal commission on medical care headed by Mr. Justice Emmett Hall?


Lester Bowles Pearson: I am not sure, Mr. Speaker, but I will be glad to look into the matter and reply tomorrow or Monday.



LIVESTOCK


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Paul Theodore Hellyer: Mr. Speaker, on Monday last the hon. member for Medicine Hat asked if it would be possible to open up additional acreage at the defence research board Suffield research station for grazing. As the hon. member knows, some 142,000 acres have been released and are now controlled by the Department of Agriculture for emergency grazing and I regret that more land cannot be made available without seriously affecting the defence research operations. To allow a larger percentage of the property to be filled with livestock would make it impossible for the experimental work to take place.
I should point out that the 142,000 acres referred to were originally turned over to the Department of Agriculture in 1961 on account of the acute drought then being experienced in that area and were for emergency grazing only. As the drought continued, this emergency measure has been extended to 1962 and 1963. I should also add that in addition to the provision of grazing areas hay has been cut under Department of Agriculture supervision and made available to the ranchers.



BROADCASTING


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
George James McIlraith: Mr. Speaker, yesterday the hon.
member for Berthier-Maskinonge-Delanau-diere asked me this question:
Can the minister confirm that he has advised the board of broadcast governors of his refusal to recommend the granting of a licence to RadioPrestige for a private French speaking radio station in Ottawa, such a refusal being contrary to the B.B.G.'s decision?
[Mr. Deschatelets.l
He also asked this supplementary question:
Does the Minister of Transport know that this application for a permit has been warmly supported by one of the most representative organizations of the French minority of Ontario, that is the French Canadian association of education of Ontario?
The answer, Mr. Speaker, is as follows:
Early in February of this year the board of broadcast governors recommended the granting of licences for two new French language radio stations in the Ottawa area. The new stations were the French language radio station of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, and the other a private station referred to in the question as Radio Prestige. The decision to grant the C.B.C. licence as recommended was taken on May 23. The decision not to approve the issuance of a licence for Radio Prestige was also taken on May 23. This latter decision ne vient pas en contravention avec la decision du B.G.R.
In so far as the supplementary question is concerned, Mr. Speaker, the minister does not know that the application had been warmly supported by the French Canadian education association.


Paul Raymond Martineau: The minister just said that the decision was not in contravention of a decision rendered by the B.B.G. If it is not in contradiction, will he say that the decision is contradictory?


George James McIlraith: No; under the legislation the board of broadcast governors have authority to recommend a station for a licence. Then, under the act, the governor in council must grant or refuse the licence.



POSSIBLE INCREASE IN GRAIN HANDLING CHARGES

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Harry William Hays: Yesterday, Mr. Speaker, I was asked if I had been informed of the meeting of the board of grain commissioners in Vancouver in the near future to consider a possible increase in elevator grain handling charges, and if the Department of Agriculture had any power to regulate these charges since any increase would be of great concern to prairie farmers.
The department has been informed of the meeting to be held by the board of grain commissioners in Vancouver on July 3. This is a routine meeting held annually at which interested parties are invited to meet with the board and present any submissions

respecting the maximum storage and handling rates for grain authorized by the board for each crop year. Similar meetings are held each year at Winnipeg and at an easterly point, as well as in Vancouver in the month of July.
The authorized maximum rates are established each year by the board under the authority of section 15 of the Canada Grain Act. Every regulation established by the board must, by section 17 of the act, be transmitted to the minister and the same section provides that the regulation may be disallowed by the governor in council.
I might add that there has been no substantial increase over the past few years, or at least the increases have been very small.



INDIAN AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Frank Howard: Mr. Speaker, on May 28 my colleague the hon. member for Comox-Alberni asked the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration what steps were being taken to introduce a measure to establish a court of Indian claims, which subject matter had been introduced during the speech from the throne. At that time the minister answered the matter was under consideration. I wonder if he could tell us whether or not that consideration has been completed and when we might expect the bill to be introduced?


Guy Favreau: In reply to this question I must say that the question of what system or what device ought to be established, whether an Indian claims commission or other, for the eventual settlement of these claims is one of government policy which will be announced in due course.


Frank Howard: May I ask a supplementary question? How does the minister square this statement with the Liberal party's promise to do it immediately?


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member knows quite well that is not a proper question to ask. (Translation):



PUBLIC WORKS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Gustave Blouin (Saguenay):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Public Works.
Is the minister aware of the fact that Sunday night, June 9, the Forestville wharf was destroyed by fire?
Inquiries of the Ministry
Since the wharf in that locality is vital to the supplying of the population, what urgent action does the minister intend to take in order to cope with that serious and urgent problem?


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Mr. Speaker, my attention was called to that fire and I must say that I regret, with my hon. friend, the disadvantages this disaster will cause to the citizens of Forestville. I asked our Quebec office to dispatch an engineer to that locality immediately. As soon as we get his report, proper action will be taken to meet the needs created by that serious fire.
(Text):


Some hon. Members:: Order paper. (Translation):



ARTS, LETTERS AND SCIENCES INQUIRY AS TO CABINET COMMITTEE ON BICULTURALISM

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Gilles Gregoire (Lapointe):: Mr. Speaker,. I would like to ask the President of the Privy Council a question.
In view of the announcement made a few moments ago with regard to the formation of a cabinet committee to study the biculturalism situation in the federal administration, for which I indeed commend him, would the minister tell us who will be the other ministers sitting on that committee?


Maurice Lamontagne: Mr. Speaker, I do not believe that it is in the parliamentary tradition to reveal the names of the members of the cabinet council on such a committee. I shall inform myself further and, if need be, I shall answer later.


Gilles Grégoire: Mr.	Speaker,	I	should
like to ask a supplementary question. Can the minister tell us whether he and his committee will also accept suggestions and information from other hon. members of the house?


Maurice Lamontagne: I shall always be happy, Mr. Speaker, to hear any recommendation from the "Gregoire commission".


Gilles Grégoire: Mr.	Speaker,	I	should
like to ask another supplementary question. Will that committee also have jurisdiction with regard to the crown corporations?


Maurice Lamontagne: As I mentioned in my statement, crown corporations will be included.

Establishment of Industry Department


Paul Raymond Martineau: Mr. Speaker, I wish to put a question also in relation to the statement made earlier by the minister.
The minister has told us that a committee of ministers had been established to study the minority report of the Glassco commission. Can he tell the house if, up to the present, his government has done anything besides studying those measures and recommendations?


Maurice Lamontagne: Mr. Speaker, we have received the complete report only this morning; I think that the hon. member should be the last one to blame us for our delay in this field.
(Text) :



INDUSTRY


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Monday, June 10, consideration in committee of the following resolution-Mr. Pearson-Mr. Lamoureux in the chair:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure (a) to establish a department of industry to be presided over by a minister of industry who shall be appointed under the Great Seal of Canada, to authorize the appointment of a deputy minister by the governor in council, and to provide for the appointment to the department on a temporary basis of persons having special knowledge of manufacturing industries to assist in the work of the department; (b) to provide for the establishment under the direction of the minister of an area development agency and to provide for the appointment of a commissioner and a deputy commissioner for area development; and (c) to make a consequential amendment to the Salaries Act to provide a salary for the minister.
The Chairman:: Shall the resolution carry?


John (Jack) Henry Horner: Mr. Speaker, I rise to speak on this resolution with a certain amount of hesitation because I am wholly in support of the object of this resolution which the government believes will create more employment. I am sure every hon. member of this house is behind the object, at least, of the resolution. The question is, how will it accomplish this object and when will it be possible, for it to be accomplished? We see in the resolution that an area development agency will be set up and a commissioner and deputy commissioner will be appointed. The question remains in my mind, how will they go about creating, promoting, starting new industry and perhaps maintaining industry already established?
When I consider the intention of the government to create and maintain industry my mind goes back to my days in Saskatchewan when that province decided to get into industry. I am not going to repeat what has

been said many, many times in this house about Saskatchewan's endeavours to get into industry. They did so in a nationalistic sort of way which I think has been proven time and again to be not too successful in creating jobs, certainly not too successful in maintaining industry and certainly not too successful in maintaining the population of that province. I think population is the crux of the problem. We have a growing population in Canada and we must create and provide job opportunities for our growing population. We have ample resources; we have a high standard of education throughout Canada; we have a high standard of living. With these ample resources and with people willing to work, we should be able to provide job opportunities for them. I believe that these opportunities lie within our natural resources.
I note with some interest that somehow or other this department of industry is going to enable Canada and Canadians to perhaps regain control of our natural resources. This is very interesting to me, coming from Alberta, where the greater percentage of our natural resources are owned and controlled by foreign capital and certainly by foreign people. How a department of industry established by the federal government can make provision whereby we can regain control of this tremendous wealth is a very interesting proposition and bears at least careful watching.
I think that in developing natural resources, providing the proper financial help and perhaps the starting of secondary industry, we have part of the solution to the unemployment problem in Canada. This problem is not confined to Canada alone; it is. perhaps a problem in all western countries today. I think the first thing that bears watching with regard to the development of a department of industry is how well this department car. be co-ordinated with the other departments of government. There is no sense, for example, in one department trying to promote industry while another department carefully and systematically goes about causing industrial and economic upheaval throughout the country. I have in mind an example which is very evident in western Canada. In Saskatchewan, they are facing an application to abandon 1,008 miles of railroad. This, if carried out, will no doubt cause a tremendous upheaval of small industries, certainly in towns through which the railroad is now running. It is bound to cause economic upheaval and loss of jobs in many areas in western Canada. I refer to Saskatchewan; but there are also plans to abandon railways and shift rail development in the province of Alberta. I think this need to co-ordinate the activities of every government department in relation

to the establishment and encouragement of new industry will be one of the biggest problems to face this new ministry when it is set up.
Much has been said about the development of industry in Saskatchewan. We have an industrial development board which is prepared to help new industries get started. This board has made some worth-while contributions toward the development of industry in Alberta. How will this new department coordinate the work of agencies which are already working in this field in the various provinces across Canada?
Another matter which should perhaps be first on the list of priorities facing the new department of industry is the creation of a market. It is useless establishing a department if there are no markets for the goods which industry can produce. Along with the development of industry we must co-ordinate our trade policies and be prepared to help create new markets for industries which may be established. When thinking about a department of industry we naturally have in mind those fields of industry in which the government is already engaged. I mention the Canadian National Railways. I could also mention defence production, which has played a tremendous role in promoting and maintaining industry in this country. Certainly, the Department of Defence Production must co-ordinate its activities closely with those of the new department, if and when it is established.
I hope that the new department will not require industry to submit more and more forms for transmission to the dominion bureau of statistics. I am informed that industry today is trying to cope with a backlog of forms which must be filled out to keep the government abreast of the developing country it is trying to govern. I hope that setting up a department of industry does not mean we will try to take over any part of the management of the industry already established, or attempt to do so by requiring management to fill out still more forms, thereby creating further overhead costs for young industries becoming established, perhaps, in areas of considerable risk.
I think one of the best ways in which a department of industry could help found and maintain new industry would be by making available information with regard to markets. The Department of Trade and Commerce under the former minister made great strides in this direction, and the new department of industry will, it appears, be taking away part of the duties of the well-established older department. However, making information available to new industries with regard
12.	1963
Establishment of Industry Department to actual or potential markets will be one of the main duties of the department of industry when it is set up.
It is also my belief that the department of industry will have to co-operate closely with the Department of Finance. It is interesting to note that in the report of the industrial development bank for 1962 mention is made of a substantial increase in the number of borrowers in comparison with 1956. In 1962, over 2,000 loans were made, 166 of them to manufacturers, compared with some 300 in 1956. This is certainly a marked acceleration in the lending program and it has been made possible by amendments to the act brought in with regard to the lending powers of the industrial development bank. It is a development which illustrates the need for close liaison with the Department of Finance, because it takes capital to establish new industries, it takes capital to maintain them and it takes capital for new industries to find markets and sustain them so that a successful business may result.
In my opening remarks, I pointed out that the development of new industry must be tied closely to the development of the resources of this country. I can think of several examples of such resources, for instance, mines and minerals; gas and oil. There are right now two or three pulp mills operating in Alberta. Why is the paper not made in Alberta? This is a question which is often asked with regard to the pulp and paper industry generally. This is a step which could be taken if our resources were under our own ownership and control, but in many cases, such as the case of the pulp industry in Alberta, the operation is controlled by United States interests; they ship the raw pulp to the United States to create jobs there by having the pulp refined and made into paper in that country. If proper steps were taken, this pulp could certainly be manufactured in Canada.
One of the most important resources Canada has is its water-water power generally. We are all aware that industry needs water in a constant and steady supply. I believe Canada's greatest potential wealth lies in our water resources. This is why it is so important that the department, when it is set up, should co-operate in taking a close look at long range plans for water development in Canada, relating those plans to industrial development generally. In this connection, I cannot help but think of the refusal on the part of the province of Alberta to go along with a study of the water resources of that province as well as of the whole eastern Rockies watershed. This is bound to be a hindrance to any long range

Establishment of Industry Department planning with regard to water development, a development so vital to the needs of industry today.
This situation provides another reason why the government and the proposed department of industry should work in close liaison with the provinces with regard to all these matters. We have seen, recently, the introduction of a resolution to establish a municipal loan fund. The resolution before us seeks to establish a department of industry. Yet there has been very little consultation with the provinces on either of these projects. I think the government would be wise in both cases to take time out to consult with the provincial authorities in every province and to convince them that their collaboration is needed with regard to these resolutions.
I think in establishing a department of industry one of the basic principles should be that of working toward a decentralization of industry. Many of our town planners today will tell you that once a city reaches a certain size, say a population of 300,000, it becomes inefficient in its operations. I just use that figure, which I think is the figure generally used by city planners. I think this is a basic principle which a department of industry should take into consideration. It should work toward a decentralization of industry, because we all know the difficulties in some of our larger cities. For instance, there is the problem of the people in those cities getting to and from work.
I shall be looking forward to this bill when it is presented to the house, to see how close will be the liaison between the department of industry and the industrial development bank, for example. Will the industrial development bank be shifted into the department of industry? I think if we are to have a tied-in relationship, it might be more feasible under a department of industry, if one is to be established. Some years ago the Farm Credit Corporation used to be under the Department of Finance. Since we have moved that loan board to the Department of Agriculture I think there is no question that it has done a much more efficient job; it has lent money to farmers and tried to meet their needs. I think there is a similarity there in the establishment of a department of industry. The industrial development bank has stepped up its loans over the last year or two a great deal, and I think it could perhaps play a greater part and work a little more closely with industry if it were put under a department of industry.
Last but perhaps not least, I think the bill to set up the department of industry should include some long range planning with regard to water development. It should maintain industry already established, and in my recommendations to the government in establishing

this department of industry I would certainly advise them to take a good look at the lesson learned by the previous and present governments of Saskatchewan in their efforts to establish industry. I do not think that governments should spend the people's money in establishing industry and try to compete in a subsidized industry with industries already established. This was the sorry example in Saskatchewan and I do not think we should repeat it on the federal scene. I think much can be done with regard to providing information on the proper liaison between, and development of, our resources; in providing capital for industry to become established; and creating the proper climate for markets for industry, once it is established. In thinking of markets, one can think only of the trade policies of the last few years. We have seen a greatly stepped up trade program. We are now exporting more manufactured goods than ever before. We have arrived at a trade surplus which I think, through the aggressive trade policies of the former government, has aided industry generally. We have had export credit increased, and this all ties in with a department of industry, if such is to be established. While I question whether the setting up of this department is feasible, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, I should like to end on a note of support for the object and intent of this move, which is to create an improved employment situation in this country, and I hope that through close liaison with other departments this is accomplished.
(Translation):


Mr. Gauthier:: In view of the introduction of the resolution to provide for the establishment of a new department of industry, I should like to put a few questions to the Prime Minister (Mr. Pearson).
As the Prime Minister said in his speech of Friday last that:
the functions of the new department will be to maintain close and practical contact with industry, to make sure that industry gets service from government,
-can we hope that our trucking industry will benefit from all those advantages, so that it can survive the giant competition of a crown corporation, the C.N.R.?
In fact, Mr. Chairman, the Canadian trucking companies represent a most important asset in our national economy. I even believe that that private industry employs more labour and puts more money in circulation that the C.N.R.
Think of all the service stations, garages and repair services, etc., which supply all those trucks. While the C.N.R. do their own

repairs since they have their own repair shops and storages, the trucking industry needs all our businessmen to operate.
Therefore, it is not fair to allow any longer the C.N.R., which is supported by our taxes and those of these truckers, to attack so viciously one of our best industries which, by the way, never did cost any deficit to the Canadian people.
We are confident that the future department will deal, in the first place, with the depressed areas, that is areas where unemployment is most severe. On that score, I think Quebec will be its first field of action. The various services to be provided by this new department will certainly be a valuable contribution in the effort to be launched any day to encourage the regrouping of our family industries.
As regards provincial autonomy, I do not see what new danger such a department could offer, since in fact it already exists in the Department of Trade and Commerce And I do not think it will be through this department that the federal government will lay hand on our autonomy, as long as the future department will remain in the field of services.
Besides, I am wondering nowadays whether the alleged intrusion of the federal government upon our industry is not preferable to that of the United States. That intrusion is increasing at an amazing speed because of the rigidity of the Canadian government towards our monetary policy. Let us keep on that tight money policy, and we shall open wider the door to foreign investments, thus losing the control over our Canadian economy.
If I may, I should like to quote a man who is certainly not a Social Crediter since he vigorously fought our philosophy during the last election campaign. But today, in face of the real danger, he has to wake up to reality.
He is even a good Liberal, and bears the stamp of high finance. But he is nevertheless a Canadian when he becomes serious. That is why he is now voicing this warning, with which he taunted the Social Crediters not so long ago.
I want to quote here from a press report published in Le Devoir of June 7, on page 13, under the signature of Mr. Kierans.
Mr. Kierans said:
Canada must have a more flexible monetary policy. The president of the Montreal stock exchange, and the Canadian stock exchange, Mr. Eric
Establishment of Industry Department Kierans, yesterday stated his support of more flexible exchange rates and monetary policy. Addressing the Canadian association of political science at Laval University, Mr. Kierans stated that our economic system is presently organized so as to maintain an external balance and that the exchange rates particularly control our economic affairs.
He feels that a tighter monetary policy would increase our economic dependence on the American market because Canada would not be able to develop its own natural resources. The United States, he said, at present have surplus capital which will be invested in Canada if the opportunity arises.
"It is even possible that the Canadian finance corporation which was created to buy back Canada from the United States, be financed by American capital."
If Canada adopts free trade policy, we will have to reorganize our industrial sector to meet foreign competition. Should we adopt a tight money policy, that would become impossible.
"We have done nothing to prepare our economic system for the cold shower of free competition."



LACK OF KNOWLEDGE

[Stage Direction]
Mr. Kierans deplores the lack of knowledge on the activities of Canadian corporations. During the austerity program of last year, the staff of the dominion bureau of statistics was reduced and the information on corporations and labour organizations was reduced.
"How can we get any information about Canadian policy when the facts are kept hidden from those who could criticize them constructively?"
Mr. Kierans revealed that, from 1950 to 1960, industrial investments varied from $9.1 billion to $21.1 billion, while profits decreased from $861 million to $831 million.
Mr. Kierans is of the opinion that tariff barriers which are meant to protect certain "infantile" industries are nothing but traps because nothing can help those industries become more competitive when they become big enough to face foreign competition. Because of tariff barriers, other countries are not interested in buying from Canada.
Mr. Kierans believes that the Canadian manufacturing industry should invest more in branches, as the United States do, especially in Asia, Africa and Latin America.
Mr. Chairman, I am opposed to any intrusion by the federal government but I am even more opposed to the carelessness, the lethargy of some provinces in the economic field.
I am a little ill at ease but I find that provinces which are the least developed economically-because they failed to elect a young, active and sincere government-are the ones that always cry out more loudly for autonomy. The administrators of those provinces look very much like people who see their house on fire, do not worry much about it and criticize the neighbours who want to come to their help. And to think that in my
954	HOUSE OF
Establishment of Industry Department province today those who claim to be the greatest defenders of that autonomy are the ones who sold it the most shamelessly.
I am getting more and more convinced that the secret of autonomy is for each one to give all his talent, all his energy to the building of his own house, in order to give his own household happiness in security.
We are anxious to know the real functions of that department because we hope it will be the safest defence against outside intrusion, if it leads Canada towards the conquest of its economy through the ownership of its industries.
(Text):
Mr. Coates:: Mr. Chairman, it is with pleasure I enter into the debate on this very important resolution which will see the establishment of a new department of government. I look forward to the bill that will follow this resolution, and I hope that in it we will find some explanation of what is hoped to be accomplished by establishing a department which already has a counterpart in the government of Canada.
As I come from the constituency of Cumberland, where there is an aircraft industry very important to the economy of the area, I had a great deal to do with the former minister of defence production, the Hon. Raymond O'Hurley, and I would like to say that Mr. O'Hurley was a man who was fully cognizant of the problems of my area and did his very best, in every way possible, to see it got a good share of the defence contracts that were available, so that my constituents would have more employment and a better living standard.
I would recommend the policies followed by Mr. O'Hurley to the minister, as Minister of Defence Production, and also as minister of industry if he should assume that post. In this regard I might say that I feel the defence production aspect of the new department of industry should be of paramount concern to the minister. I cannot quite anticipate why the government is so terribly anxious to set up a department of industry when it already has the Department of Trade and Commerce and I fear that there will be repetition of effort and that confusion will develop from the fact that there will be two departments which in many instances will both be obligated to carry out the same tasks, tasks that are very important to the economy of our area.
I also cannot appreciate the government's concern for industry at a time when industry is booming, and has been booming for a period of more than a year. The white paper tabled in the house Tuesday indicates that our gross national product has passed the $40 billion mark. This is not an indication


that business is in need of greater guidance from government. Indeed, having looked at the speech from the throne and the government's proposed program may I say that business could very well be hindered materially by the type of legislation we are now having placed before us, with the indication that it is supposed to stimulate the economy to even greater heights. An economy that has had an 8 per cent rise in the gross national product, an economy in which the consumer price index has only gone up by 1.2 per cent is not the type of economy that you want to fool around with a great deal; and if the businessmen of this country are capable of demonstrating that they are able to run their businesses and do their jobs as efficiently as they have in the past two or three years, I do not think we should be putting any more roadblocks in their way in the form of bureaucracy.
I should like to return to the aircraft industry that I have in my constituency, which is encountering difficulties at the present time, difficulties which my constituents were led to believe by the Liberal candidate would evaporate into the air if a Liberal government with all the answers was elected. The Liberal party was able to obtain more seats than any other party in this country. They are in the seat of government today. But my constituents have not seen anything evaporate, unless it be their jobs in the aircraft industry. This is not the type of evaporation that my constituents were led to believe would develop. Yes, Mr. Chairman, there are many problems facing the aircraft industry today, problems on which the Minister of Defence Production should be spending his time rather than endeavouring to usurp the responsibilities of the Minister of Trade and Commerce, who I feel is quite capable of looking after the job he has been given to do.
The defence sharing program developed by the former Conservative government through the then minister of defence production, minister of finance and minister of trade and commerce with our friends in the United States has been very beneficial indeed. To give an indication of just how beneficial one only needs to refer to a recent statement to the press by the present Minister of Defence Production in which he outlined among other things that between 1951 and 1958 Canada had an unfavourable balance of trade in defence production contracts of $49 million, and from that time to the present we have had a favourable balance of trade of some $80 million. I would say this is a pretty fair example of just how effective the past government was in getting defence contracts for



SS5 JUNE

[Stage Direction]
defence plants in this country. Certainly we want to see more of this done no matter what government is in power. Anything the minister can do to assist in this regard is something that we will applaud, and rightfully so because it will mean more work, more employment, more dollars in the pockets of our people.
What is a little disconcerting to me is that the Minister of Defence Production now states that they are going to try to balance off defence production sharing so that the United States will not have an unfavourable balance of trade in this connection. If this is the type of work that the present Minister of Defence Production is going to carry out as minister of industry, if he is going to try to see that more work is put into United States plants that could be done by workers in Canada, he is not going to be making much of a contribution either to the economy generally or to the aircraft industry of this country. If he is going to do it in some other way, I should like him to explain to the house how he is going to do it. I think it is most important for us to know exactly what it is he has in mind in this regard. The Halifax Chronicle-Herald in an editorial on June 8 indicated very great concern about his statement and I believe they should be enlightened as to his new approach regarding defence production sharing, as should members of this house.
I think the Minister of Defence Production should also take cognizance of the fact that this aircraft industry in the town of Amherst, which is very efficient and has highly skilled workmen who have done a tremendous job for many years in aircraft repair and overhaul, is in desperate straits to day. They are laying off men. We do not want jobs to evaporate. We want the problems to evaporate, as the Liberal candidate told us during the election campaign would occur. It has not occurred to date. Of course, there are a few days left in the days of decision. Possibly the minister can get a decision on a contract which this firm is negotiating at the present time with a United States concern in order to put our people in Cumberland county back to work through the firm getting a contract which they deserve on the basis of their efficiency. On the basis of the new relationship that the present government is supposed to have with our friends in the United States I would not feel it would be any problem at all for the Minister of Defence Production, either in his present capacity or as minister of industry, to eliminate this difficulty by getting this contract signed, thus putting our people back to work. If he does
12,	1963
Establishment of Industry Department so, certainly we will be very pleased with him and with his efficiency.
Now, Mr. Chairman, I believe that we have to go slowly in this business of setting up new departments, especially in this case where we have a similar department in existence today. I cannot quite understand why the government must set up a new department that is similar to the Department of Trade and Commerce unless they feel the present Minister of Defence Production is unhappy with his portfolio. Perhaps the government feels the minister is capable of carrying a greater workload than is his at the moment. You know, there is a danger of empire building in the civil service, and apparently there is also danger of it within the government. We have more cabinet ministers today than we have ever had in this country's history. If we have new departments we are going to have even more ministers. Perhaps this is an attempt to spread the work around so that as many of their people as possible have appointments of one sort or another and everybody in the Liberal party will have a position. As one of my friends has said, this may be one of the Liberal party's attacks on unemployment. Well, it may be, but I do not believe the people of the country are as interested in eliminating unemployment of this type as they are in the elimination of their liberties, their freedom, resulting from an expanded bureaucracy.
Certainly, the businessmen of this country must be sick and tired of the bureaucracy that there is today without facing any more boards and departments that seem to be in the minds of the individuals who compose the oligarchy in the present government.
John Whitney Pickersgill: I wonder if the hon. gentleman would permit me to ask him a question? Could he tell us briefly at this point in his interesting speech what was done in the six years that his friends were in office to reduce the bureaucracy?


Eldon Mattison Woolliams: Some are sitting on the treasury benches, if that is any answer.


Robert Carman Coates: I am glad to have the question from the Secretary of State. I reply, I would say that the Glassco commission was not an example of an endeavour to expand the bureaucracy. Perhaps the hon. gentleman could request the President of the Privy Council to make some move to implement the recommendations of the Glassco commission. There might be fewer civil servants, but we would have a more efficient government, more efficient from the taxpayer's point of view,- that is if you are interested in those individuals, and if you ever get down to the level where you talk to them. I think that is
956	HOUSE OF
Establishment of Industry Department an important item to be considered. Of course, when one steps from the civil service into government he does not ever get that appreciation of what the individual constituent has in mind as one does if one is in a position where there is some doubt about being elected. If you put your seat up for grabs the way some members of parliament have to do, and as often as some have had to do in the past or have to visit your constituency once in a while, you appreciate how individual Canadians and businessmen are concerned about the growing bureaucracy that is so evident in Canada today.
There is some unhappiness, in my opinion, about the way the present government has indicated it plans to operate. It is quite a frustrating thing for members like the Secretary of State for External Affairs and the Minister of Justice, men who have been politicians all their lives, men who did not join the civil service in the hope of later becoming cabinet ministers as a result of a party finding them safe seats-


John Whitney Pickersgill: I wonder if the hon. gentleman would permit me to ask him another question? Does the hon. gentleman now consider St. Antoine-Westmount a safe Liberal seat?


Robert Carman Coates: If one can judge from the majority the Minister of Defence Production piled up, I would say that is a fairly significant indication that it is a safe Liberal seat at the moment.


Paul Raymond Martineau: May I ask the hon. member a question? Does he consider the constituency of Bonavista-Twillingate a safe seat for the Liberal party?


Robert Carman Coates: As long as the Secretary of State has the patronage of the premier of Newfoundland, it is.


Mr. Tucker:: Filibuster.


Robert Carman Coates: The hon. member says, "filibuster".


John Whitney Pickersgill: If I may interrupt for just a minute, I should like to inquire if there would be any possibility, since it is now five o'clock, of passing the resolution at this stage so that hon. members could see the bill, if I were to give an undertaking that the bill would be the first item called for debate tomorrow.
(Translation):


Mr. Rondeau:: Mr. Chairman, I rise on a point of order. May I point out to the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate (Mr. Pickersgill) that, since he is not at his place, he cannot ask questions?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, I shall point out to the hon. member that we can speak from any place when the house sits in committee.
(Text):


The Deputy Chairman:: Order; I apologize for interrupting the hon. member, but it is five o'clock and the house must proceed to the consideration of private members' notices of motions pursuant to section 3 of standing order 15.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I wonder if there was an answer given to my query? The hon. member for Pontiac-Temiscamingue is the senior privy councillor over there, and perhaps he could indicate whether or not it would be agreeable to the committee to pass the resolution so that we could have first reading of the bill.


Robert Carman Coates: Unlike hon. members on that side of the house, I do not need the hon. member for Pontiac-Temiscamingue to speak for me. I have not completed my remarks as yet.


Herman Maxwell Batten: It being five o'clock, so that the house may proceed to the consideration of private members' business pursuant to section 3 of standing order 15, it is my duty to rise, report progress and request leave to sit again later this day.
Progress reported.



FREIGHT RATES


Mr. Robert Simpson (Churchill) moved:: That, in the opinion of this house, the government should give immediate consideration to the advisability of establishing an equalization of freight rates in Canada in order to provide a more equitable cost of various goods and services in all parts of the nation.
He said: Mr. Speaker, it is an honour and a pleasure for me to have the opportunity of introducing the motion which is before the house at this time. I do so with a feeling of deep responsibility because I realize the importance and necessity of a measure such as I have suggested in this motion. Many areas of Canada suffer from and are severely handicapped by an excessive freight rate, and the area which I have the honour of representing comes within this category.
When I first went to northern Manitoba in 1935 I immediately found that the cost of living in that area was a good deal higher than it was in the city of Winnipeg. The stock answer at that time, when anybody inquired about it, was, "It is the freight rates". Mr. Speaker, this expression is one which has defied the sands of time, because it is still the favorite excuse in relation to all price differentials which obtain in the northern part of the province. I must hasten to admit at

this time that in some instances over the past few years we have received the benefit of some rate adjustments, but in almost all these cases you will find that reductions have coincided with the construction and completion of new highways. Unfortunately, however, the greater proportion of our present rail lines have no competition from these new highways.
Excessive freight rates are one of our main concerns and will continue to be so until some new form of equalization is brought about. The previous government, I am pleased to say, recognized this fact. The present Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Diefenbaker), our former prime minister, repeatedly voiced his keen interest in an equalization of freight rates in Canada. This w_as one of the reasons for his action in setting up the royal commission on transportation. I believe I am quite justified at this time in saying that it is now an obligation of the present government to carefully scrutinize the findings of this commission in relation to freight rates in Canada and take the necessary action to bring about an equalization of these rates. This, I suggest, is going to be no easy task, but I believe it is essential if we are at all interested in providing equal opportunities for all Canadians.
Mr. Speaker, I am not qualified myself to say just how difficult it may be to bring about such a measure, but the authority I quote when I say it will be a big job is the commission itself, when they mention in their report that the task of appraising the inequities in the freight rate structure and such changes as will alleviate them was one of the most complex that faced them. In presenting an historical analysis of rate making and its evolution from a situation of near monopoly to the present stage of mixed competition, the commission had this to say:
In the earliest days of the railways, freight rates were not based on well defined principles. Individual rates were sometimes put into effect on an experimental basis and at times special agreements were worked out between carriers and shippers. The innovation of rail transport in Canada was so superior to any existing medium of transportation that little or no complaint was raised for the first 25 years of railway operations. Since neither the shippers nor the government felt inclined to question the rate structure the railways were under no compulsion to provide a theoretical justification for the structure of rates in force.
With the publication of the first classification of commodities in 1874 by the Grand Trunk Railway, a somewhat more rational approach emerged to supplement the test of experience in railway pricing. In this first classification, commodities were grouped in four classes, with the fourth class serving as a basis for the determination of prices in other classes. Special ratings for agricultural commodities and lumber were attached to the classification.
12, 1963	957
Equalization of Freight Rates
The main principle which seemed to be behind the grouping of the commodities in the initial freight rates classification was "charging what the traffic will bear".
Mr. Speaker, many of my constituents firmly believe that this latter statement is still the yardstick used in arriving at many of our freight rates in northern Manitoba. Freight rates are one of our greatest concerns in western Canada, and I am sure that other hon. members will have something to say in this regard. Before mentioning some examples of why I feel that we in northern Manitoba suffer from unjust freight rates I would like to mention that certain questions always arise when a westerner makes any appeal for equalization of rates. The first question which usually arises is: do you believe that you are the only people in Canada who suffer from abnormally high rates? I hasten to say that we realize full well that comparative situations obtain in many parts of the maritime provinces and other parts of Canada, and that these also should be straightened out. The second question which usually arises is: if you believe in an equalization of freight rates, do you feel that the Crowsnest pass rates should be readjusted? In this regard, Mr. Speaker, I wish to place on the record my thoughts concerning the Crowsnest pass rates.
This agreement was entered into 1897 and was adjusted, I believe, in 1925. However, at the time the rates were determined the Canadian Pacific Railway were granted approximately a quarter of a million acres of land, a monopoly that extended into southern Alberta and the Kootenays, and they were also subsidized to quite an extent. I therefore do not feel that there is any justification now in considering any further erosion in the Crowsnest pass rates. We in northern Manitoba are not asking for any special consideration on freight rates; we are only asking that the distorted share which we are now, in many cases, paying be discontinued and that some realistic rates be arrived at.
Over the years, delegations representing various parts of western Canada have given evidence before the standing committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines and have presented some clear and concise examples of the glaring inequalities in the freight rate structure. On other occasions I have brought some of our own problems in northern Manitoba to the attention of this house. In 1959, I gave some examples of the serious situation we face in relation to the need of bringing new industry to our province. I mentioned the fact that the government of Manitoba is extremely interested in encouraging the development of new industry as quickly as possible.

Equalization of Freight Rates
Some five years ago, the Manitoba government commissioned an economic survey of northern Manitoba. It might be interesting to take a look at what this commission, which was conducted by Arthur D. Little, Inc., had to say in regard to the relation between transportation in northern Manitoba and the possibility of encouraging forest products industries in the area. They said, and I quote:
Transportation is of considerable importance in pulp and paper operations, both for the supply of raw materials and for the delivery of finished products. For raw material supply, northern Manitoba offers facilities comparable with areas in which pulp and paper mills have been successfully established; for the delivery of finished products, however, it suffers from a serious competitive freight rate disadvantage.
In 1959, I mentioned some specific freight rates which were contained in this economic survey report in relation to newsprint and pulpwood. Today, I should like to point out a few of the rates which presently apply in relation to foodstuffs and so on-rates which affect directly, and are borne mainly by, the average working man.
Under agreed charge No. 1,126 from Vancouver, using the 30,000 pound minimum category, we find that foodstuffs can be shipped to Dryden, Ontario, which is 1,673 miles, for $2.40 per cwt., and to Fort William, which is 1,883.5 miles, for the same price, $2.40 per cwt.; but to Flin Flon, which is only 1,479.7 miles, the rate is $2.47 per cwt., and to Lynn Lake, which is 1,630.3 miles, the rate is $2.80 per cwt. Hon. members will see that these rates represent higher rates for shorter distances.
Under the same agreed charge, No. 1,126, the rate from Vancouver to Winnipeg is $1.85 per cwt., a distance of 1,464 miles, while to The Pas, a distance of only 1,388 miles, the rate is $2.33 per cwt. These inequities obtain in the Swan River valley, Thompson, Churchill, and in fact all points along the rail lines to Lynn Lake and Churchill, as they have done throughout the years.
The same situation applies in the case of goods coming from eastern Canada under agreed charges Nos. 1,089 and 230, which show higher rates to these northern centres than to many points in western Canada a much greater distance away from the original shipping point. This is why I feel that unjust discrimination has been going on for many years in regard to these rate structures on all types of freight traffic to northern Manitoba, and I cannot impress upon the government too strongly the urgent need for relief of the situation which exists.
People in many of these northern points desiring to go for a holiday to other parts of Canada and wishing to drive their automobile, must ship that automobile out to the


nearest highway and back in again, and there is continuous complaint about this particular rate. Last fall a reduction was made in regard to this rate in and out of Lynn Lake; but last month, I am told, the rate was changed back again to what it was before. I believe this rate on automobiles also warrants investigation and a downward adjustment.
As I mentioned earlier, these unjust freight rates seriously affect every person living in the north, but the two main complaints are that they tend to discourage a more rapid development of that part of Canada while, at the same time, digging deep into the pockets of the family breadwinner. The points I have mentioned represent only a few of the reasons why I welcome this opportunity to bring to the attention of the house and, in particular, to the attention of the government, the urgent need for the equalization of freight rates in all parts of Canada.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Mr. Speaker, the problem which occurs to us when we look at the motion before the house is that part of it is a kind which one cannot be against-it would be like being against children, or motherhood, or the royal family at most times. That is the part about the advisability of establishing equalized freight rates. This is the dream, or the ideal, of almost every area-that its freight rates should be equalized, as far as the burden is concerned, with those in the areas where the rates are lowest. It is impossible, in a sense, to be against this idea. I think everyone in the last 40 or 50 years who has talked about freight rates has held it; all the myriad delegations to hearings, the briefs presented before royal commissions, have urged this as a principle.
I have here the index to the hearings of the royal commission on transportation, 1959, and under "freight rates structure" there are a number of headings. In connection with the heading "equalization rates" there are a great many references to show that this has been the position taken. To put it succinctly, everyone is for the equalization of freight rates.
But when we come to the second part of the hon. member's motion, the part containing the words "in order to provide a more equitable cost of various goods and services in all parts of the nation", one finds a continuation of this idea without anything specific being put forward to indicate how equalization would be achieved. With all respect to the hon. member, he talked more about the inequalities than he did about the means of removing those inequalities. The hon. member does not make any distinction between railways and trucks. Yet it is obvious that with the kind of freight being carried today you

cannot have a national transportation policy on freight rates without doing something about trucking. The hon. member gave us no recommendation or opinion as to how he thinks this can be achieved with freight rates at the present time applying in the federal sense just to the railways and not to trucks at all. Does he include water rates, which I think in a general way would come under that heading? Does he want to include the field of air freight, which is developing fairly rapidly?
Turning to another point into which he really did not get, although he did touch on the Crowsnest pass rates and said they were justified, I think it could be argued that the Crowsnest pass rates are a form of equalization. It was certainly argued at the last royal commission that one of the subsidies we are interested in, in our part of the country, the bridge subsidy, is a form of equalization which is equalling the burden which bears on shippers in western Canada. What about the maritime freight rates structure and what it is designed for? Surely that is an attempt at equalization.
Why I am so sceptical about the general good will contained in this motion is that the board of transport commissioners for a number of years, particularly from about 1955 to 1958, laboured hard and held a great number of hearings in connection with the equalization of freight rates, and most people, even the lawyers of the prairie provinces who were the most vigilant ones-for example, I think of Mr. Frawley from Alberta who came down to Ottawa-were prepared to admit that equalization was not particularly successful, although it did have some consequences.
I should like to point out to the hon. member and to the house that we now have over 1,700 agreed charges in existence. I think it is almost exactly at that figure now. This development of the agreed charge has resulted in a tremendous amount of the actual freight which is carried developing a relationship between the carrier-that is the railway carrier-and the shipper. It is all very well for the hon. member to talk about his region as I talk about mine in terms of northwestern Ontario, but how does a regional interest come in when it is possible for the shippers and the railways themselves to bargain for and to set an agreed charge? Obviously, just because of the fact that the truckers are so anxious to contest, or would like to contest, so many of the agreed charges, if they could, in terms of whether or not they are remunerative to the railway, this is a means of getting cheaper shipment of goods. If, as the record shows, the agreed charges are multiplying, and multiplying rapidly, I would argue that this
Equalization of Freight Rates indicates that equalization in the sense of some kind of subsidization or adjustment in the class and commodity rates really does not matter much any more, and that if more and more of the traffic is getting out of the class and commodity rates it is almost impossible to see where equalization can come to bear. I think the hon. member and other hon. members who follow railway freight rates will admit the agreed charges are posted and they can be contested, and any shipper who wants an agreed charge to apply to him can take it up and, if necessary, force the railways to give him that particular rate.
Having made these criticisms of the difficulties of obtaining real equalization, Mr. Speaker, I should not like the idea to be left that either as an individual member or as one speaking for the New Democratic party I was very happy with the general rate situation as it exists in Canada at the present time. Just recently I attended a forum held in Winnipeg, sponsored by what is called the Canadian lake ports association, which is made up of the provincial government in Manitoba, some agencies at both the lake-head and Winnipeg, and supported by the provinces of Saskatchewan and Alberta. It is designed to increase the use of the Canadian lakehead for shipment of goods to and from the west, the whole idea being that water transportation, since we have it for eight months of the year, should lead to much cheaper goods. One of the conclusions which I have reached after attending this forum is there is some form of co-operation, or collusion, if you want to put it that way, between the leading lake shipper, Canada Steamship Lines, and the railways-I suspect the Canadian Pacific Railway mostly-and that this is designed to keep the rail-water rates just at a 7 per cent margin, no more, no less, over the rail rate into and out of western Canada. It is all very well for the royal commission on transportation to recommend competition between the various modes of transportation, although in a sense I would agree that that would be the ideal way to keep your freight rates on the lowest possible basis. But when we have a specific example where the lake-rail rate into the west and out of the west is only worth a 7 per cent margin, it is quite obvious why more general cargo is not being shipped west or east through the rail and water combination. It opens up the kind of problem with regard to freight rates that I do not feel the royal commission touched on, and I have very little hope that the board of transport commissioners or the government will open it up.
There is one other example I can give from my own region which would indicate

Equalization of Freight Rates the need for greater flexibility and adjustment in freight rates, although I do not see how any measure of equalization is really relevant unless you want to look outside your own country. At Steep Rock mines they are producing iron ore which is shipped out of the Canadian lakehead mostly into the American market. Steep Rock mines are operating relatively at a considerable slump, and the main reason is because they have been unable to compete either with the higher grade taconite shipments from both the Mesabi and Marquette ranges down into the American market and also with some of the Labrador ores. Just last year, after much negotiation, the mines at Steep Rock finally obtained a charge from the Canadian National Railways, which is the sole shipper to the lakehead, which set a price for the ore provided they shipped so much, and then the thing would move in escalation depending on how much or how little they shipped.
Not long after this agreement was signed the closest competitors of the Steep Rock iron mines, the Mesabi range producers in the United States and the Marquette range, arranged for substantial cuts with their railways in the United States, and as a consequence the United States railways set-up in this whole iron ore picture tends to have a much greater flexibility on rates than we have in Canada. I am concerned, as I know are the hon. members for Kenora-Rainy River (Mr. Benidickson) and Fort William (Mr. Ba-danai), over the fact that the Steep Rock iron range is not producing nearly to its capacity. One of the real factors in this low production is the level of the freight rates. I would argue, Mr. Speaker, that it is much more important for us to develop some kind of flexibility which will lead to a continuing adjustment of that freight rate so that mining regions can compete, than to have any over-all process of equalization that may be in the hon. member's mind so far as this motion is concerned.
I should also like to make the point, Mr. Speaker, that until we wipe out the bridge subsidy-and it has not been wiped out yet- until we wipe out the Crowsnest pass rates, the Maritime Freight Rates Act and the federal grain assistance act, which are instrumental in moving a lot of particular kinds of commodities to various parts of the country, it will be impossible to envisage any fair kind of equalization process that will really work effectively to help regions such as the hon. member represents.
I would like to suggest that one of the responsibilities of these regional development councils that are going to be set up under the new department of industry should be to examine the regional problems in terms of transportation, and see if we cannot get some

kind of help in that way, considering the various modes of transportation available, rather than through any general over-all equalization policy.
In conclusion, I would like to say to the hon. member that we do not feel it is enough to say you are against sin and for motherhood, and making this analogous to the problem it is not enough to say that you are for equalization of freight rates. The responsibility resting on each one of us concerned with this problem is to spell out how we would like to see it tackled in so far as our own regions are concerned.
In northwestern Ontario we have been concerned and worried about this problem for a long time and we feel it should be studied by our regional economic council, which we hope would have both federal and provincial affiliations, so that out of that will come the kind of recommendations that will be listened to by the board of transport commissioners and the general economic advisory council that is recommended by the royal commission on transportation, which I hope the government will proceed with.
I have one last word with regard to freight rates, Mr. Speaker. It was my impression, following the hearings of the royal commission on transportation, that the reluctant party in the whole business of moving away from the old kind of structure was the C.P.R. It seemed to me that Mr. Ian Sinclair, vice president of the C.P.R. and their chief lawyer at the hearings, was set in his position that he was not going to allow the kind of freedom in transportation competition that seemed to be developing in the commissioners' minds as the hearings went along.
I look upon the recommendation of the royal commission on transportation as a victory over the C.P.R. conception with regard to the freight rate structure, and to its role in transportation, and I hope that this victory, which has not yet been crystallized in terms of either agency or policy with regard tc freight rates, will be pushed to its conclusion by the government. If the referral of this motion of the hon. member to the standing committee on railways and canals would help in any way, we in this party would be glad to support that, if it is at all possible. If it is not, I would on the other hand hate to see this motion accepted by the house without some kind of amendment, because as it stands it is not sufficient.


Robert Norman Thompson: Mr. Speaker, the subject of freight rates is not a new one. It has been of vital concern to the far west and far eastern parts of our country for many years. Down through the

years this chamber has heard many expressions of opinion with regard to how the problem could be solved, and I would like to think that the problem which is involved here could be as easily settled as the motion suggests. I agree it is a very difficult problem. It is an over-all problem in the larger areas, and a regional problem in the lesser areas.
Mr. Speaker, it is essential that some more satisfactory basis be provided to solve our problems. Just to say that the government should give immediate attention to the feasibility of establishing equalization of freight rates is an over-simplification. This has been said many times before. We agree with it in principle; in that it is necessary, but it is not just as simple as that.
Briefly going back over the history of this matter we find that section 336 of the Railway Act was enacted in 1951 as a direct result of the Turgeon royal commission on transportation, which then recommended the equalization of freight rates. That section declared it to be the national freight rates policy that, subject to certain important inspections, so far as it is reasonably possible every railway shall charge tolls to all persons at the same rate whether by weight, mileage, distance or otherwise. Under the direction of that legislation, the board of transport commissioners in 1952 undertook a study of the entire Canadian freight rates structure, by increasing here and by decreasing there the regional inequalities concerning which complaints had been received from each of the provinces for many years. Then by 1954 the board had completed its study of the class rates. Those rates, while they do not carry a large proportion of the traffic, are nevertheless important because they are the basic rates which are used in the negotiation and publication of various special rates.
Then, on March 1, 1955, the uniform class rates scale came into effect, and the situation since that date is that the class rate charge for 100 miles of haul in western Canada does not exceed the class rate charge for 100 miles of haul elsewhere in the country.
Following that, the board of transport commissioners proceeded to review commodity rates, both mileage rates and special commodity rates. These rates carry a great volume of traffic, and it was important to bring about an equalization in that area because there were serious differences in the scales in force in western Canada and those in eastern Canada.
The board continued that work for several years but it was suspended in 1958 when the government declared in parliament that there was to be no freight rate increase during the
Equalization of Freight Rates currency of the MacPherson royal commission on transportation, set up in May 1959. The reason for the board's suspending its equalization studies was obvious. Equalization necessarily means a reduction in some places and an increase in others, and there could be no equalization so long as the government's policy was as it was.
Today the responsibility for further action in this regard rests on the one hand with the government and on the other with the board of transport commissioners. I agree with the hon. member for Port Arthur (Mr. Fisher) that there must be more flexibility in this adjustment of freight rates, but there are many difficult aspects involved to which satisfactory answers have not been supplied to date.
I believe that while this motion is basically sound in its principle it will not result in the government's saying tomorrow, "We are going to have equalization of freight rates, or we are going to attempt to bring it about". I agree with the hon. member for Port Arthur (Mr. Fisher) that the two resolutions before the house at the present time, relating on the one hand to the setting up of a department of industry and on the other hand to the setting up of a national economic council, provide an approach through which a more satisfactory answer can be reached with respect to the problem with which this resolution is concerned. Certainly there are many regional problems which must be taken into consideration, and it is the responsibility of the government to bring these various studies to a conclusion and to make sure that the various boards and agencies now in existence or which will be brought into existence have the definite responsibility to take some action in this regard.
To speak directly to the resolution, it is difficult to see that this is the answer. The resolution is reacting to the problem which must be solved. I would also agree that if passing this resolution meant that it would be referred to the committee concerned for further study, it would be a good thing; but I hardly think that the problem can be solved so easily. Let us remember as we consider this matter that this is not something new. It has been studied for a long time. I believe we must learn from the lessons that have emerged from the studies that have been carried on. To arrive at a more flexible and equitable solution of the over-all problem is something that, while necessary, is not just as easy as it would seem to be in this resolution.
We must also remember that in the decisions and studies which have been made, a great deal of progress has been achieved. As far as I am concerned as a westerner and

Equalization of Freight Rates speaking also for the Social Credit party, it is essential that there be action. While I am in sympathy with the resolution I am not at all convinced that it provides the answers. (Translation):


Mr. Rosaire Gendron (Riviere du Loup-Temiscouata):: Mr. Speaker, since this is the first time I rise in this house, I would like first of all to offer my congratulations and ask you to convey my congratulations also to the Speaker and to the Deputy Speaker. I add to these congratulations my best wishes for a long term of office in the chair.
I feel that the atmosphere you created makes easier the task of freshmen like myself. It makes it easier to jump in the fray. This reminds me of two verses from Moliere.
Bien lui en pris de n'Stre pas de glace,
N'y eut blentdt plus qu'une marre d'eau a sa place.
This motion submitted by the hon. member for Churchill (Mr. Simpson) recalls to a certain point the history of this country, of the railways and more particularly of my constituency. As a matter of fact, the history of our country is most certainly related to the establishment of railway transportation. It would have never been possible, in my opinion, without linking the Atlantic and the Pacific oceans with this ribbon of steel to ensure the commercial development of areas which would have otherwise been very slow to contribute to the progress of our country. I am thinking of all the western provinces which before the advent of the railways had a population slightly above that of Riviere du Loup and have now become the pride of the country, being the granary of almost the whole world and giving such a considerable impetus to our economy.
However, there is also a problem which has always caused conflicts, the problem of the economical operation of railways and also on the part of the government on implementation of a policy of national economic development. As a matter of fact if we have had any desire to follow economic lines of the time, a hundred years ago, there is no doubt that we would have built a north-south railway instead of an east-west railway. It was done differently, because a whole new country was to be created, new areas, districts, were to be opened up. It was thanks to that faith that builders have, and which can displace mountains, that we are living in this great and beloved country of ours.
On the basis of that principle, that is, on the one hand, the search for the economic evolution of this country and, on the other hand, the economic feasibility of the undertaking, there necessarily arises a permanent conflict which will not be easily solved. However, such was the spirit of our forefathers, who

wanted to build something great and to develop the marginal areas of this country. When searching for a solution, it is essential that a spiritual atmosphere be created, which would help the underdeveloped areas to evolve normally within the Canadian economy.
I said before that this also reminded me of the history of my constituency. Also, one hundred years ago, the Grand Trunk had a terminal at Riviere du Loup. And a few years later, Riviere du Loup was linked with New Brunswick by the Temiscouata railway, which is now a part of the C.N.R. system. And because of those transportation facilities, our county was enjoying a considerable expansion which was to provide for its development but which, unfortunately, also led to serious difficulties, especially at the time of the dieselization of the equipment and the closing down of our C.N.R. workshops.
Mr. Speaker, I would say that the advent of the railway almost had international effects, because in 1862, the London News said this:
Most of our readers never heard of Riviere du Loup, but if war broke out with the United States, because of present unfortunate disagreements between England and the United States, Riviere du Loup would become as well known to the English public as Balaclava was during the Crimean war, because that is the place and just about the only place where, during winter, we would be able to make contacts and send the troops and supplies necessary to the defence of that part of our great and priceless colony situated between the mouth of the St. Lawrence river and the shore of lake Huron.
Mr. Speaker, if railways can make way for a considerable development and give certain regions a marked geographic importance, it is essential to encourage the development of depressed areas through freight rates which provide for the normal development of their economy, of their industry and of their general trade.
I congratulate the hon. member for Churchill (Mr. Simpson) for bringing this serious problem to the attention of the house and I agree with those who took the floor before me and who pointed out that this was an important but very complex problem. The principle set forth in the resolution could become an extremely important planning instrument for the government. However, it is not the only one, because I am convinced that if the emphasis is placed only on transport rates in order to ensure the development of underprivileged regions, the problem of unfair and discriminatory competition with regard to other means of transport arises then.
On the other hand, if the emphasis is placed only on profit and the financial sound-

ness of the undertaking, the necessity to enable all regions, however remote, to contribute to the growth of the country is forgotten.
How are we to find, between those two positions, the middle of the road solution that will, on the one hand, enable the railways to meet their obligations and make a profit and, on the other hand, prevent the underprivileged regions from feeling neglected because of their remoteness?
I am of the opinion that there is not only one solution in that respect. Freight rates represent one solution. But remote regions must not be deprived of the preferential rates they now enjoy. We must also take into consideration the whole situation and, if necessary, contribute to the operation of other means of transportation in order to help them play their part both at the economic level and in the field of area development.
It is the intention of this government to introduce many supplementary measures which will promote, in the normal way, the development of the less fortunate areas of our country, such as setting up of a department of industry, agricultural rehabilitation and development programs, changes in the Department of Agriculture, in order that more attention can be paid to some areas and some particular problems.
All those supplementary measures will help solve this transportation problem.
However, the region is faced also, in that field, with particular problems which were submitted to the royal commission on transportation by the province of Quebec. And at page 123, 1 read this:
That region has particular economic features and the C.N.R. can improve its revenue and at the same time help the region if it will only adopt the following recommendations.
First, set up a regional district in the lower St. Lawrence and the Gaspe peninsula which could be known as the lower St. Lawrence-Gaspe peninsula region or the Appalachian region.
Second, assign to that office French speaking personnel, use bilingual documents and give instructions in both languages.
Third, establish a piggy-back system.
One knows that such a system has been set up since. One also finds in that brief complaints to the effect that some truckers could not take advantage of this service of the C.N.R., which considered them as foreigners. Finally, the brief mentions that independent truckers are also citizens and consequently must receive from the C.N.R. the same attention as other people.
Business of the House
Mr. Speaker, in the fixing of railway rates, it cannot be overemphasized that it is necessary to help remote and underdeveloped areas.
We know that economic forces, left to themselves, tend towards a great centralization. Industrialists are inclined to settle in large cities, because they find there a market which attracts businessmen, and the people follow. Then we see the young people in rural and remote areas leave for the cities; we had to train them and pay for their education, but once they are in a position to help our expansion, they go to the cities because we cannot provide them with jobs.
I feel that is pure waste since, in many cases, those young people add nothing to the municipalities where they settle down. On the other hand, this bleeding of our communities contributes to the slowdown of the economy at a time when we need all our strength and our intellectual resources to stabilize our economy.
In my opinion, this should be kept in mind when the rates are established because, in any circumstance, the government has to make good the frequent deficits of the railways. In addition, since the government has to make large expenditures to assist in various ways -very often without any result-the less developed areas, grants should be made to boost the economy and to stop this exodus of young people, by stabilizing the economy of the whole country.
In closing, Mr. Speaker-
(Text):


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Batten):: Order; I apologize for interrupting the hon. member, but it being six o'clock I must advise the house that the hour for the consideration of private members' business has expired.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if it might be possible to get an order of the house now to permit us to sit after ten o'clock tomorrow evening, if it should be necessary, for long enough to enable the financial critic of the opposition to make his spontaneous response to the budget? My hon. friend, the Minister of Finance has indicated that he reads very slowly and he might be cramping the style of the hon. gentleman opposite if we insisted on adjourning precisely at ten.

Business of the House Hon. Gordon Churchill (Winnipeg South Centre): I believe that will be agreeable, Mr. Speaker. We did this once before a year or so ago and ran over just a few minutes past ten o'clock. The financial critic on this side will speak very quickly and shortly.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Agreed.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Batten):: Do I
hear unanimous consent?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Batten):: It is so
ordered.


Gordon Minto Churchill: May I ask the house leader to give us in a short sentence, so that he who runs may read, the business for tomorrow?


John Whitney Pickersgill: As a matter of fact, sir, I think hon. gentlemen will find they can read better if they sit down.
It is the intention of the government to go on with the debate on the department of industry resolution as the first item of business tomorrow, and as soon as that has been concluded, to begin the resolution respecting the Department of Agriculture. In the event that both those items should be completed before five o'clock, I would begin the Atlantic development board resolution. If there should be any time between the conclusion of the rapid remarks of the financial critic opposite and ten o'clock, we would go on until ten o'clock with whatever business had been interrupted at five o'clock. As far as Friday is concerned, I think perhaps I would rather wait until tomorrow night to indicate the business for Friday, because it will depend to some extent upon what progress we make tomorrow.


[Stage Direction]
It being three minutes after six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.