1963-06-26

Mr. Raymond Langlois (Meganiic):: I rise on a question of privilege, Mr. Speaker. I wish to make a corrective statement concerning an article published in La Presse of June 25, 1963, entitled:
Third parties finally bury Gordon affair.
The article, written by Mr. Jean Char-pentier, accused the hon. members for Red Deer (Mr. Thompson), Lapointe (Mr. Gre-goire) and Villeneuve (Mr. Caouette) of having been conspicuous by their absence when the vote was taken last Monday evening on the Gordon affair, the budget and the amendment.
In that article, it is insinuated that the hon. member for Villeneuve was out of hospital but had not come to vote. I merely wish to point out that the hon. member for Villeneuve was still in hospital at that time and, consequently, not in this house.
(Text):



CONTINUATION OF SUBVENTION POLICY FOR FIVE YEARS

[Stage Direction]
Hon, W. M. Benidickson (Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys): Mr. Speaker, one of the most urgent matters awaiting attention on my appointment has been the situation of the Canadian coal industry. This problem must and will have the most careful and immediate consideration, but it has appeared necessary that some steps be taken now that will end the uncertainty of the last few years and provide stability for a reasonable time.
It is the intention of the present government to introduce during this session legislation that will provide assurance to the coal industry that the existing subvention policy shall be continued for five years. This does not imply that there will be drastic change at the end of the period. It does mean that during this interval the problems will be studied seriously, including the past history and the future prospects of the industry, and the government will develop and apply such policies as may seem appropriate.
28902-5-101
There have been substantial changes in the market for coal in recent years. Large industrial consumers have replaced the railways and householders as the major outlets. These large consumers demand stability in their fuel supply, and assurance of this stability has been offered by competitive fuels. A very large proportion of the output from western and eastern Canadian mines has required subvention assistance to find markets, and this assistance has in the past been provided only on a year to year basis through an item in the estimates in our department. It is clear that if the mines are to be maintained in operation some assurance must be provided that will put them in a competitive position in this industrial market.
The coal industry is today in a more healthy condition than it has been for some years. While production has not increased, there is full time operation in most of the remaining mines with the accruing benefits of full employment and stable wage agreements that are necessary. This provision of continued support is assurance to the miners, their families, the dependant service industries and to the mine owners that they can look forward with confidence to a continuation for some years of these present conditions.
Representations urging a decision of this kind have come to me since my appointment from coal producing companies and the employees' unions in both eastern and western Canada.
Hon. Paul Marlineau (Ponliac-Temisca-mingue):: I am sure, Mr. Speaker, that we on this side welcome the announcement the minister has just made. We also take note of the fact that he declared that the situation of the coal industry was rather healthy. If that is so, I believe it is due to a large extent to the far sighted policies that were instituted by the former administration. I am sure the minister will be the first to acknowledge that.
During my rather brief tenure of office as minister of mines and technical surveys I had occasion to make a few statements in the house concerning coal subsidies, and particularly in respect of subsidies on coal exported to Japan. As a result of that policy instituted in 1958 our coal exports to Japan, which were practically nil in 1957, reached three quarters of a million tons during the last fiscal year. The industry has acknowledged that this was made possible because of the subsidies paid.

Continuation of Coal Subvention
We welcome the statement that the subsidies will be paid for five years. This provision is in line with the thinking of the former administration, and I believe it will be of great benefit to the coal industry. We will look forward with interest to the legislation the minister has announced. I believe it will prove to be a continuation of that policy of assistance which was one of the features of our administration.


Mr. H. A. Olson (Medicine Hat):: All I wish to say in respect of this announcement is that we in this group welcome the statement that legislation will be introduced to continue the subvention policy for five years. We believe that this will, at least in some degree, remove the uncertainties that exist in the coal mining industry as to markets. We welcome the legislation and hope it will have a beneficial effect on this industry.


Mr. M. W. Martin (Timmins):: I should like also, Mr. Speaker, to express the appreciation of this party on the fact that this government is apparently going to continue this subsidy for five years instead of having it on a yearly basis as it was in the past. I feel that this is an excellent direction for this government to take. It is going to give a great deal more stability in the areas depending on coal mines than they have had in the past. I hope, too, this is an indication that the government is going to adopt this policy not only for the coal industry but also for various other industries which in the past have suffered from this same sense of instability.



QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. Howard: For each month since January 1, 1961, how many Indians, by band, of which each was a member, in the (a) Terrace Indian agency (b) Skeena Indian agency (c) Babble Indian agency (d) Bella Coola Indian agency (e) Bums Lake Indian agency (f) Queen Charlotte Indian agency, have been hospitalized, in which hospital, and for what ailment?
He said:	I wonder if, as a result of
correspondence and discussions I have had with the parliamentary secretary to the minister, I might be permitted to withdraw this question.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
Question withdrawn.
[Mr. Martineau.l
(Translation):



COMBINES


Mr. Perron: 1.	Since 1960, has the restrictive trade practices commission submitted reports and recommendations on certain firms specializing in the production, sale, and distribution of container and packaging cardboard and allied products?
2.	At the time of the investigation, what were the names of the various firms involved In this investigation and what were the names of the directors and executives of each firm?
3.	What recommendations were made by the commission in connection with this investigation itself, and with respect to each of the firms concerned with the investigation?
4.	Has the Department of Justice implemented the recommendations made by the commission?
5.	Does the government intend to implement these recommendations?
6.	Has the Minister of Justice consulted with the Minister of Finance and the Minister of National-Revenue on the adoption of measures designed to eliminate any harmful effects dealt with in the said reports?


Mr. Macdonald:: 1. Yes, on August 2, 1962, the commission on restrictive trade practices submitted the following reports to the Minister of Justice:
A report on the manufacturing, distribution and sales of paper shipping containers and allied products.
A report concerning the purchase, by Bathurst Power and Paper Company Limited, of Wilson Boxes Limited.
A report concerning the purchase of the common shares of Hendershot Paper Products Limited, by the Canadian International Paper Company.
2.	Each of the preceding reports, copies of which are sent herewith (in the English version, as the printed French version is not yet available), reveals the names of the persons and companies against whom allegations were made in the evidence. The names of all the managers and directors of each firm are not revealed in the reports; but those of some persons, and the positions occupied at certain times are mentioned in the reports and can be found in the appropriate context.
3.	A report concerning the manufacture, distribution, and sales of paper shipping containers and allied products:
(1) "Concerning the agreements that resulted in the fixing of common prices on paper for packing cases and shipping containers, we believe that, under the Combines Investigation Act, it will be possible to ask for a court order preventing those who are taking part in such agreements from keeping them or restoring them later under the same or a modified form. Because of persisting efforts in view of agreements on maintaining a common price for longer periods of time, under

whatever form, the commission thinks that a request should be made, under the Combines Investigation Act, for a sufficiently restrictive order prohibiting the joint employment by the parties to the agreement of any person or any private organization concerned with matters connected with sales prices, cost prices or statistics."
(2) That the most efficient way to restore competition to that industry, as far as production of paper board and containers is concerned, which would be advantageous to the public as it would reduce prices, would be to suppress customs duty both on the paper board and the containers, in the light of the financial situation which existed at the time this report was prepared.
The commission thought that, on the basis of jurisprudence, none of the mergers involved a violation of the Combines Investigation Act. However, it expressed the hope that "in the near future a review will be made of the matters raised by those rulings of the appeal courts, more particularly the Supreme Court of Canada, in order that they may be finalized."
Report on the purchase of Wilson Boxes Limited by Bathurst Power and Paper Company Limited:
The commission felt that on the basis of jurisprudence, this merger was not in violation of the Combines Investigation Act.
In the report concerning shipping containers, the commission recommended that appropriate changes be made in the Customs Tariff to restore competition in the supply of paper board and shipping containers. Such recommendations would also be relevant to this investigation.
Report on the purchase of the common shares of Hendershot Paper Products Limited by the Canadian International Paper Company:
The commission was of the opinion that on the basis of jurisprudence, this merger was not in violation of the Combines Investigation Act.
In the report on shipping containers, the commission recommended that certain amendments be made to the Customs Tariff which in its opinion would protect the public against needlessly high prices both on paper board and shipping containers, which would contribute to eliminate restrictions which inevitably apply to the supply of packing board when a predominant part of the packing board production in Canada is carried out by integrated companies and is used in their own converting operations. The commission feels that the recommendations made in connection with the investigation on shipping containers are relevant to this investigation.
28902-5-1011
Questions
4.	The report concerning the manufacturing, distribution and sales of paper shipping containers and allied products was submitted to counsel and after thorough consultation, counsel was instructed to enter lawsuits.
5.	The recommendations in the reports are under consideration and any decision in that connection will be announced the usual way.
6.	As soon as the report was published, it was submitted to the Department of Finance.
(Text):



* ARMED FORCES


Mr. Fairwealher: Does the Department of National Defence consider the ideological beliefs of relatives when recruiting or promoting people in the armed forces and, if so, what degree of relationship is considered, e.g., relationship by blood or by marriage?


Mr. Hellyer:: The Department of National Defence since 1955 has followed a general directive of the government of Canada on security clearances required of personnel who are liable, as an incident of their service, to have access to secret information belonging to Canada or our allies. The government is at present reviewing the criteria to be applied to such security clearances.



BUILDINGS LEASED, NEW WESTMINSTER, B.C.

Mr. Mather: Does the federal government lease any buildings in the city of New Westminster to house depart-* mental branches and, if so, (a) what branches (b>
what is the name of the owner of the buildings (c) what is the annual rent paid in each case?


Mr. Dupuis:: Yes; (a) Royal Canadian
Mounted Police; (b) Kenneth G. Bos worth, and province of British Columbia; (c) $6,900 and $1,401 respectively.



C.N.R. WATERFRONT CONSTRUCTION, FORT WILLIAM, ONT.

Mr. Fisher: 1.	How many years is it since the Canadian National Railway undertook any building along the property of the waterfront in the city of Fori William?
2.	In any of the property held in the city of Fort William by the C.N.R. as a consequence of its own purchases or the taking over of concessions and lands from its predecessor railroads, what covenants, if any, were given to the city of Fort William that developments of an industrial or transportation kind would take place on these properties?
3.	Has the C.N.R. had any recent discussions, face to face, with the civic authorities in Fort William regarding these covenants and any procedures that might be followed to open up this land to some kind of a development and, if so, when, by whom, and to what effect?

Questions
4.	Has the Canadian National Railway undertaken with the Canadian Pacific Railway any discussions in order to develop a common switching pattern in the service to the harbour and waterfront in the cities of Fort William and Port Arthur and, if so, has any schedule or plan of proceedings or meetings been set up in order to reach some kind of hard agreement that would be beneficial to the railways and to the users of rail services along the harbour front of Fort William and Port Arthur?


Mr. Cantin:: The management of Canadian National Railways advise as follows:-
1.	The last construction on the Mission property at Fort William was the rebuilding of shed No. 2 in 1930.
2.	No covenant was made regarding development for industrial purposes. The Grand Trunk Pacific Railway did agree to construct certain terminal facilities on the 1,600 acres purchased from the department of Indian affairs and a commitment was also made to construct a bridge. Both of these commitments were fulfilled and the bridge is used generally by the public.
3.	Canadian National industrial development officers have continued to keep in touch with the industrial development people in Fort William and industrial development people in other points served by Canadian National, respecting possible new industrial development projects. Recently on May 23 the Canadian National manager of industrial development at Winnipeg and the Canadian National industrial agent at Winnipeg met with members of the Fort William industrial promotion committee. The railway industrial development representatives have indicated to the Fort William industrial promotion committee that while naturally Canadian National is primarily interested in the location of new railway freight traffic producing industries, nevertheless the railway can be depended upon to take the broad view with respect to any industrial project interested in the area, or any other Canadian National served areas, even though these may not promise direct railway freight traffic benefit. So long as these offer promise of reasonably substantial development and economic benefit to the community as a whole, the railway is interested in seeing such industrial development projects come to fruition.
4.	There have been no discussions with the Canadian Pacific regarding the development of a common switching pattern in the harbour and waterfront areas of Fort William and Port Arthur and present switching arrangements are not considered detrimental to industries. Many industries now enjoy free interswitching from both railways and this is true of those located in the Mission area of Fort William.



C.N.R. TRACK MAINTENANCE, ATLANTIC AREA

Mr. Muir (Cape Breton North and Victoria): 1.	Does the management of the Canadian National Railways propose to inaugurate a new system of track maintenance in the Atlantic area and, if so, what changes will be made, and will there be any reduction in the number of men used for maintenance of way crews in the region?
2.	If there is a reduction in maintenance of way crews, what special steps will be taken to ensure the same degree of safety?
3.	If there is a reduction in staff, what protection will be given present employees in regard to job security?


Jean-Charles Cantin: The management of Canadian National Railways advise as follows:
1.	Track maintenance procedures are constantly under study in view of improved work methods and general improvements to the road property.
2.	There is no intention to alter the high standard of maintenance and safety.
3.	See answer to No. 1. Generally it can be stated that individuals exercise seniority within their respective groups in accordance with existing wage agreements and the railway makes every effort to find alternate employment for men who may be affected by any changed conditions.



SECOND TRANS-CANADA HIGHWAY

Mr. Willoughby: 1.	What consideration Is being given to the Immediate co-ordination of a highways development scheme in co-operation with the various provinces?
2.	Is it anticipated that such co-ordination could lead to a second trans-Canada highway?


Mr. Badanai:: 1. Individual discussions have been held recently with some of the provincial highways ministers, and invitations for similar talks are going forward to the balance of them. As a result of these discussions, the government will be in a position to give consideration to future policy and to the possibility of calling a federal-provincial highway conference on the matter.
2.	This is a matter of government policy to be determined following the developments outlined in part 1 above. At the present time, no decision has been reached.



POWER SUPPLY, INDIAN AGENCY BUILDINGS, NORWAY HOUSE, MAN.

['In 1962 the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys conducted, on behalf of the emergency measures organization, a survey of all active mines, and some inactive mines of the adit type, which were readily accessible. In considering mines as potential fall-out shelters the most important factors are access, habitability, and proximity to population centres. The survey did not include caves since large caves are normally not suitable for the accommodation of people\n\nfor any length of time. Operating mines were selected for survey because they have pumps, hoists and ventilation equipment available for use. Except in the case of mines of the adit type, no consideration was given to abandoned mines mainly because of inaccessibility, but also because of the expense required to make them usable. From an engineering viewpoint it would be feasible to use some mines as fall-out shelters.\nFive mines in the ridings of Port Arthur and Fort William have been found to have characteristics that may be of the sort needed for fall-out protection for sizeable numbers of people.']
Mr. Munro:: Yes.
(a)	March 18,	1963, by treasury board
minute.
(b)	Department of National Health and Welfare 2 60KW diesel generators; 5 oil storage tanks and related equipment.
Department of Citizenship and Immigration all transformers, poles, conductors and related line materials from existing system.
(c)	The Manitoba hydroelectric board has agreed to supply electric power service at Norway House to all government buildings of the Department of Citizenship and Immigration and the Department of National Health and Welfare.
The Manitoba hydroelectric board further agrees that if, as, and when a sufficient number of consumers have signed applications for service to justify constructing a distribution line to serve them, such service shall be made available to consumers at Norway House. The rates for consumers will be established by the Manitoba hydroelectric board.
(d)	See answer to (c).
(e)	No. Actual work has not commenced, but according to information received, tenders for powerhouse materials have been obtained and are now being considered by the Manitoba hydroelectric board.
(f)	It is not known how many local people will be employed when the project is commenced. However, the clearing of rights of way will be done by local labour.
(g)	Barring unforeseen delays, project is scheduled to be completed by December 15, 1963.



Mr. Valade: Has the Minister of Public Works definitely accepted St. Helen's island as the official site for the world's fair?


Mr. Deschalelels:: Stand.
(Translation):


Mr. Georges Valade (St. Mary):: Mr. Speaker, considering that questions No. 440 and No. 449 deal with the same matter and are topical, we should like to know the government's intentions respecting the Montreal world fair.
(Text):


Mr. Speaker:: I am very sorry, but at this time it is not customary to intervene. Perhaps the hon. member would take this up directly afterward.
Question stands.


CORPORATE MERGERS IN CANADA
Mr. Fisher: 1.	Does the combines investigation branch take an interest in corporate mergers in Canada and, if so. how long has this interest existed?
2.	How many mergers have taken place in Canada since this interest was accepted as a responsibility?
3.	By type of operation (e.g. mining, textiles, oils, chemicals) how does this merger total break down?
4.	What has been the total of corporations wiped out by mergers in this period?
5.	In total, are there more or fewer corporations and companies in existence now than before the combines investigation branch began its work?
6.	What has been the total of corporate assets absorbed in such mergers?
7.	Has the branch any statistics on mergers, in the form of whether they are horizontal or vertical in kind and, if so, is there any trend discernible toward one or the other kind in recent records?


Donald Stovel Macdonald: 1. The prohibition against mergers contrary to the public interest has been contained in the Combines Investigation Act since it was originally enacted in 1923. As the director and his predecessors have been charged with enforcement of the act, an interest in corporate mergers has existed since that date.
2.	There is no material published by either the restrictive trade practices commission or the combines branch containing such information. As stated in the annual report of the director of investigation and research for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1962, however, a general or research inquiry is being conducted under section 42 of the act relating to mergers in Canada in the post-war period. The inquiry is still in progress. As the house is aware, it is not the practice to disclose information obtained by the director in an inquiry unless and until it appears in a published report.
3.	Answered by No. 2.
4.	Answered by No. 2.
5.	Answered by No. 2.
6.	Answered by No. 2.
7.	Answered by No. 2.


CIVILIAN SURVIVAL IN NUCLEAR ATTACK
Mr. Fisher: Does the government consider that in the event of a nuclear attack on North America there will be a definite problem of civilian survival and, if so,

Questions
does It consider this as a problem, equivalent in both expenditure and planning, as the military problem of meeting the attack?


Mr. Davis:: Yes; it is a problem requiring planning and expenditures but not on the scale required to meet and to deter a military attack.


SURVIVAL SHELTER CONSTRUCTION PROGRAM
Mr. Fisher: 1.	Is a massive program of fall-out and survival shelter building part of the government's policy, and, if so, what steps are planned to implement it?
2.	If not, what alternatives does the government foresee to such protection in the event of a nuclear attack?


John (Jack) Davis: 1. The government's policy to date has been to acquaint Canadians with the facts regarding the nuclear threat and the importance of shelter as a protection against fall-out. A comprehensive program of public information has been used, including the provision of shelter plans of many types, among which there are a number of inexpensive but effective ones. This has been coupled with financial assistance by way of loans under the National Housing Act. This has all been directed to the objective of individual and family effort to provide added protection at home. Any Canadian, on request, can get promptly information set out in readily understandable terms, covering shelters suitable to a great variety of needs and including readily improvised shelter as well. Even the simplest of these arrangements can reduce the fall-out danger markedly.
No government program to build shelters for families, groups or communities has been undertaken.
2. The present government is studying the various possible policies in regard to shelters.


CAVES AND UNDERGROUND CHAMBERS AS SURVIVAL SHELTERS
Mr. Fisher: Has the emergency measures organization made a survey of caves and underground chambers in Canada with a view to determining their fitness as survival shelters and, if so, how many such caves and underground chambers has it found in the ridings of Port Arthur and Fort William?


John (Jack) Davis: In 1962 the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys conducted, on behalf of the emergency measures organization, a survey of all active mines, and some inactive mines of the adit type, which were readily accessible. In considering mines as potential fall-out shelters the most important factors are access, habitability, and proximity to population centres. The survey did not include caves since large caves are normally not suitable for the accommodation of people

for any length of time. Operating mines were selected for survey because they have pumps, hoists and ventilation equipment available for use. Except in the case of mines of the adit type, no consideration was given to abandoned mines mainly because of inaccessibility, but also because of the expense required to make them usable. From an engineering viewpoint it would be feasible to use some mines as fall-out shelters.
Five mines in the ridings of Port Arthur and Fort William have been found to have characteristics that may be of the sort needed for fall-out protection for sizeable numbers of people.



WATER SUPPLY IN NUCLEAR ATTACK

['No. Discussions are under way between federal and provincial ARDA officers but no area has yet been selected.']
John (Jack) Davis: 1. No. The provision of water safe for human consumption is a public health matter and responsibility for it lies with the provinces and municipalities.
The government, through emergency health services and the emergency measures organization, provides advice to provinces and municipalities in respect to the following factors concerning wartime contamination of water by radioactive fall-out;
(i)	it recommends, as standards applicable in wartime, levels of contamination beyond which water sources should not be used;
(ii)	it recommends methods of testing water in regard to these standards;
(iii)	it provides information on the techniques for decontaminating water;
(iv)	it is providing an operating manual for water-works engineers for the management of water contaminated by radioactivity in water systems;
(v)	it has provided, through planning pamphlets such as "11 Steps to Survival" recommendations as to the storage of water in homes as an emergency measure;
(vi)	it provides lectures in the emergency health services courses such as those for public health officers, sanitary inspectors and sanitary engineers, dealing with the contamination of food and water and providing advice on techniques for decontaminating such supplies.
Provincial or municipal projects for establishing safe sources of water as part of emergency planning for nuclear war may be eligible for assistance under the financial assistance program. One such proposal accepted under this program was a by pass

pipeline in connection with the Vancouver district of Delta reservoir. This project adds considerably to the reliability of the water supply. The total cost of this project was $1,888 of which the federal share was $1,416.
Additionally, some private organizations had taken steps to provide safe wells for their own use in emergencies.
2. (a) Any source of water in covered storage; (b) water originating in bored well; (c) rivers, since they are capable of selfdecontamination. Relatively soon after attack the level of radioactive contamination of rivers may be so small as to be acceptable.
It should be understood that the emergency of nuclear war may make it necessary to accept somewhat higher levels of radioactive contamination for short periods than would be acceptable over long periods in peacetime.



Mr. Fisher: 1.	Has the government arrived at a decision on (a) what is the best type of individual survival shelter in the event of a nuclear attack (b) what is the best type of community shelter?
2.	If so, what steps, educational and financial, has it taken to ensure the proliferation of such protection?
3.	What success or response has come to these efforts?


John (Jack) Davis: 1. (a) and (b) The government has provided, over several years, thorough research into the matter of the best types of shelter for Canadians having in mind the conditions likely to affect this country in nuclear war. From this, designs and structures have been developed, both with respect to home shelters and to the congregate or community type. The designs for such shelters have been published in convenient pamphlets which cover a wide range of fall-out and anti-blast shelters.
The government, further, has had wide surveys made of larger buildings in Canada to determine their potential protection against radioactive fall-out. The emergency measures organization provides information to all who ask for it on measures that can be taken to improve fall-out protection in larger buildings.
2. Through broadcasts, displays, pamphlets and manuals, information on fall-out has been provided for public use. This has cost the federal government more than $630,000 over the last two fiscal years. Provincial and municipal governments further this program of public information by ensuring ready distribution of the material provided by the federal government.
Under the National Housing Act, loans or increases on present mortgages can be provided for home owners in order to build shelters.
Questions
3.	(a) It is not known how many shelters have been built in Canada-it is probably a few thousands.
(b)	208 persons have availed themselves of arrangements under the National Housing Act.
(c)	It appears probable that many fall-out shelters have been built privately without any public knowledge of their construction. It is not possible to estimate their number. Moreover, many no doubt have put to use the information given them on improvised shelter, or are prepared to do so at short notice.


SHELTER PROTECTION, NUCLEAR ATTACK
Mr. Fisher: 1.	In consideration of its role, what population estimate does the emergency measures organization use?
2.	How many of this population total have been provided at this date with fall-out shelters to ensure survival in the event of nuclear attack?
3.	Of the total protected by fall-out shelters, how many shelters of a large-scale kind have been provided by and through emergency measures organization; for what number, and what kinds of people (e.g. government officials) ?
4.	How many fall-out shelters, either individual and family or community or otherwise, exist at present in the ridings of Port Arthur and Fort William?
5.	How much money, to the knowledge of emergency measures organization, has been spent on fall-out shelters by (a) individuals (b) private corporations and associations (c) provincial governments (d) the federal government?
6.	How much money has been spent, and for what classification of supplies, to stock fall-out shelters and regional depots to supply survivors of nuclear attack?
7.	What supplies, in what form of protection are located in the ridings of Fort William and Port
Arthur to look after the welfare of survivors of nuclear attack?
8.	What cost figures does the emergency measures organization have, giving the total money spent in Canada, for ensuring the survival of Canadians in the event of nuclear attack, by year, and in total?


John (Jack) Davis: 1. Population estimates are provided by the dominion bureau of statistics based on the 1961 census.
2.	The only fall-out shelters provided to date are those constructed by persons for themselves.
3.	The government has built a number of operating headquarters units to be used in wartime for warning the public of attack and for directing the armed forces and civilian emergency operations. These have protection against fall-out but they are not regarded as shelters but as operating units.
4.	A report secured in 1962 from officials in Fort William and Port Arthur advised that one fall-out shelter was known to them to have been built in each city. There are probably others.
5.	Information is not available to answer this question.

Questions
6.	No public funds have been spent on supplies to stock fall-out shelters. The only stockpile developed to date is that needed for emergency medical supplies.
7.	None, other than those normally held for peacetime purposes or those that may have been put aside by individuals or families.
8.	The figures available to the emergency measures organization are for federal expenditures and are those given in reply to question No. 467 (3).


CIVILIAN SURVIVAL, NUCLEAR ATTACK
Mr. Fisher: 1.	Does the Canadian military carry out studies in probability using the theory of games and, if so, has it applied this theory to the probabilities of civilian survival in Canada in the event of a nuclear attack on (a) Canada (b) the U.S.A.?
2.	What are the estimates of civilian population survival resulting from these studies, giving the various modes of attack?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: 1. Studies have been made but not using the theory of games.
2. These analytical studies involve the use of a great many theoretical variables, including a number of imponderables associated with Canada's position to the main target of attack. These considerations do not lend themselves to an accurate estimate of population survival.


NATIONAL FOREST POLICY
Mr. Fisher: 1.	Is the Department of Forestry aware of any national policy in the field of forestry?
2.	If not, is it trying to develop one within some legislative framework?
3.	If so, what is this national forest policy, in brief, and related to (a) silviculture (b) resource use?


Mr. Nicholson:: 1. Yes.
2.	See answer to 1.
3.	The Department of Forestry believes it has a responsibility to further the development of policies of mutual interest to provincial and federal levels of government in the field of forestry. It also considers that it has a function of serving as Canada's link with international forestry organizations and, to a large extent, with other national governments.
In addition to and concurrent with its important research function, the department considers it has a co-ordinating role with the goal of developing an environment in Canada receptive to uniform good practices relating to forest management, to forest protection and to utilization of forests and forest products, thus improving the competitive position of Canada's forest industries.
With respect to the specific areas of silviculture and of resource use where federal policies have national implications, there are:

3. (a) Silviculture: The Department of Forestry conducts a comprehensive program of forestry activities on a national scale. This over-all program is aimed at maximizing returns from all resources available. They include:
(i)	Forestry research relating to soils, silviculture, tree improvement and stand management, forest mensuration, and fire protection. Though there is no strictly official common policy adhered to by the federal and provincial governments, activities in the silviculture field are conducted by this department in accordance with programs established through committees which are made up of federal, provincial and industrial representatives. Information from these sources is studied by the department and is available to all persons interested.
A number of provinces depend almost entirely upon the federal research services; other provinces conduct provincial programs in close co-operation with the federal department. One outstanding illustration of this cooperation is the joint research agreement between Ontario and the federal government whereby research resources are pooled in an attack upon problems of mutual interest.
(ii)	Federal-provincial agreements. The federal-provincial forestry agreements provide federal financial assistance to the provinces in the fields of forest inventory, reforestation, stand improvement, forest access, and forest fire protection. All ten provinces are participating in this program. The agreements represent a nation wide recognition by the federal and provincial governments of the need to place special emphasis on these fields.
(iii)	Forest fire protection. That portion of the federal-provincial agreements respecting fire protection, together with the policy whereby provinces may call upon the federal government for armed services' assistance, combine in a policy operative at the national level. This policy is of course concurrent with research pursued at the regional level, and is aimed at establishing local fire danger tables related with type of forest stand, type of fuel, topography and weather factors.
(iv)	Dissemination of information. The department considers it has a function in disseminating scientific, technical and educational information and making it available to forest owners, industry and the general public. In certain areas, such as educational films, it works in close co-operation with provincial authorities, and prints are available to all levels of government. In another area, popular education, a major effort is made by the Canadian Forestry Association, with financial assistance from the federal government.

3. (b) Resource use. In relation to resource use, the Department of Forestry's policy is in the formative stage. The department participates in the resource use program being explored by ARDA.
Another promising area, in which the department has the function of co-ordinating research, is the watershed research program in the Saskatchewan river basin. This project has the support of four federal departments (agriculture, forestry, northern affairs and national resources, transport), two joint agencies (eastern Rockies forest conservation board and the prairie provinces water board), and three Alberta provincial departments (lands and forests, agriculture, research council). The aim of the program is control of water flow based on a multiple use involving forestry, agriculture, mining, recreation, and wildlife; in a more specific sense its goal is watershed protection and maintenance in conjunction with the utilization of forest and other resources.
The Department of Forestry also acts in cooperation with the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources in providing forest surveys and advising on management of the Yukon and Northwest Territories forests, and of the forests of the national parks. Similar service and advice are provided for the Indian reserves which come under the jurisdiction of the Department of Citizenship and Immigration. Management of forested areas in military camps (Gagetown, Valcar-tier, Petawawa, Borden) is directly under this department's authority, as well as management of our own forest experiment stations.


C.N.R. PASSENGER SERVICE, WINNIPEG-GRAND BEACH AND VICTORIA BEACH
Mr. Knowles: What was the profit on the operation of the C.N.R. passenger train service between Winnipeg and Grand Beach and Victoria Beach in each of the last three years the service was operated?


Jean-Charles Cantin: The management of Canadian National Railways advise as follows:
None-abandonment authorized by board of transport commissioners by board order No. 111131.


PURCHASING PROCEDURES, PUBLIC PRINTING AND STATIONERY
Mr. Fisher: 1.	Has the attention of the queen's printer been drawn to paragraph 3, page 305, vol. number 2 of the Glassco commission, and, if so, has he prepared any information on the purchasing experience of the buyers in the Department of Public Printing and Stationery?
2.	Were any or all of these buyers' positions filled through civil service commission competitions?
Questions
3.	What is the length of buying experience, as of June, 1963, of the superintendent, chief purchasing agent, and the other purchasing agents?
4.	In rough estimate, how much purchasing, in dollar terms a year, is supervised by the chief purchasing agent?
5.	In rough estimate, how much of this, in dollar terms, is done by tender, and how much by direct order?
6.	For the last fiscal year, what firms, at what locations, achieved more than $100,000 worth of supplies (a) by tender (b) by direct order?


Yvon Dupuis: 1. The answer to the first part of the question is yes; the answer to the second part is no.
2.	One position (purchasing agent gr. 4)-was filled by promotion of the former assistant buyer.
The other position (purchasing agent gr. 2) was filled by civil service commission promotion competition open to the Department of Public Printing and Stationery.
3.	Superintendent, 9 years. Chief purchasing agent, 2 years. Purchasing agent, commercial printing, 17 years. Assistant purchasing agent, commercial printing, 10 years.
4.	$20,000,000, of which $5,500,000 is commercial printing.
5.	Seventy per cent or $14,000,000 of the over-all purchasing is done by tender, the remainder is done by price inquiry and direct order. Ninety per cent of the commercial printing orders are awarded after tender; the remainder by price inquiry and direct order.
6.	(a) By tender: Apeco of Canada, Toronto; Block & Anderson, Ottawa; Burroughs Adding Machines, Ottawa; Doon Twine Limited, Kitchener; International Business Machines, Ottawa; Minnesota Mining & Mfg. Co., London; Peerless Carbon & Ribbons, Ottawa; Photographic Stores Ltd., Ottawa; Stone Roll Paper, Toronto; Charles Bruning, Montreal; Consolidated Paper Sales, Montreal; E. B. Eddy Co., Hull; Howard Smith Paper Mills, Montreal; Provincial Paper, Montreal; Rol-land Paper Co., Montreal; Alger Press Ltd., Oshawa; Ashton-Potter Ltd., Toronto; Crain Business Systems, Ottawa; Egry Continuous Forms, Toronto; Gage Envelopes, Scarborough; London Printing & Litho, London; Moore Business Forms, Ottawa; Rolph-Clark-Stone, Toronto; Drummond Business Forms, Drummondville; Ronalds-Federated, Montreal.
(b) By direct order: Addressograph-Multi-graph, Ottawa and Toronto; Block & Anderson, Ottawa; Gestetner Ltd., Ottawa; Hughes-Owens, Ottawa; International Business Machines, Ottawa; Office Appliances, Ottawa; Remington Rand, Ottawa; Xerox of Canada, Toronto; Commercial Litho, Montreal; E. B. Eddy Co., Hull; Howard Smith Paper Mills, Montreal; Provincial Paper, Montreal.

Questions


SUBSIDY TO OAK BAY MARINA, VICTORIA, B.C.
Mr. Douglas: Was a subsidy authorized under the ship construction assistance regulations in the construction of the Oak Bay marina at 1327 Beach drive, Victoria, B.C., and, if so, what was the amount of the subsidy, and what was its proportion to the total cost?


Jean-Charles Cantin: No, but application has been made for subsidy in respect of the construction of the underwater barge known as "Underwater Gardens", which is moored by its owner, Saltaire Products Ltd., at Oak Bay marina. The amount of subsidy applied for is $43,340 which represents 40 per cent of the approved cost.


HOUSING COST INCREASE THROUGH SALES TAX ON MATERIALS
Mr. Aiken: 1.	What is the average cost of building materials in houses built under the National Housing Act taken at a total cost of $13,000?
2.	What is the increase in the cost of such a house as a result of the 11 per cent increase in sales tax announced in the budget?


Mr. Garland:: 1. An examination has been made of total costs in 14 urban centres of houses in the $13,000 range. After deducting an appropriate amount for land, labour, profit and other fixed charges the approximate average cost of the material component is $4,680.
2.	In assessing the effect of the sales tax, two circumstances are to be taken into account. First, the sales tax was already applied to certain building materials. Second, the sales tax will be applied to the manufacturer's sales price before the mark-up for overhead and profit by distributors. When allowance is made for these considerations, it is estimated that the portion of the building materials in the above house being affected by the new tax will approximate $3,300. It is not possible to say to what extent the increase in tax will be passed on to the final purchaser. This will depend on competitive conditions in local markets for building materials and for houses.


MARKING OF OBSTRUCTIONS TO FLYING
[Stage Direction]
Question No. 619
Mr. Basford:: 1.	How many Department of Transport aircraft accident reports filed in the last two years indicated that cables, lines or wires, caused or contributed to aircraft accidents?
2.	What regulations, if any, cover the marking for flying purposes of man-made obstructions and, briefly, what are they?
3.	What regulations, if any, specifically cover the marking for flying purposes of cables, lines and wires and, briefly, what are they?


Jean-Charles Cantin: 1. Figures for 1963 are not yet available, however there were 18 aircraft accidents in 1961 and 14 in 1962 involving collision with wires.
2.	Regulations made pursuant to the Radio Act require certain antenna towers to be obstruction marked while the Navigable Waters Protection Act provides the means for requiring wires or cables crossing navigable waters to be obstruction marked. In addition, airport zoning regulations, as provided for in the Aeronautics Act, have been applied at a number of major airports across the country. While the zoning regulations do not cover obstruction marking they do restrict the construction of future structures which would project above established imaginary airport zoning surfaces.
3.	Apart from the regulations discussed in the answer to question 2 above there are no other federal regulations that specifically cover the marking of cables, lines and wires for flying purposes.


FARM LOAN BOARD APPLICATIONS, PONTIAC-TEMISCAMINGUE CONSTITUENCY
Mr. Martineau: 1.	How many applications for loans were made by farmers in the constituency of Pontiac-Temisca-mingue to the Canadian farm loan board in each of the fiscal years 1956-57, 1957-58, 1958-59, 1959-60, 1960-61, 1961-62 and 1962-63?
2.	How many such applications were approved?
3.	What is the total value of the loans which were granted to the said farmers during that period?


Mr. Beer:: The Farm Credit Corporation does not maintain statistical records on a constituency basis. However, for the municipal counties of Pontiac and Temiscamingue, which together approximately coincide with the constituency of Pontiac-Temiscamingue, the answer is:

Questions
Pontiac-Temiscamingue
(3)
Canadian Farm	(1)	(2)	AmountLoan Board	Years	Applications	Approvals	of Loans1956-57	1	1	$ 3,2501957-58	4	3	13,050Farm Credit	1958-Oct. 4/59 From Oct. 5/59 to )[DOT]	6	5	18,400Corporation	end of fiscal year | 1959-60	5	4	20,8501960-61	6	3	62,5001961-62	6	6	41,5001962-63	15	10	109,700Totals	43	32	$269,250


SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO FORESTRY MINISTER
[Stage Direction]
Question No. 644
Mr. Fisher:: 1.	Has the Minister of Forestry taken an executive assistant or a special assistant on staff and, if so, what is this person's name, age, place of birth, institutions of education and educational qualifications, governmental or business experience (position held, length of experience, name of firm) and initial and present salary with the government?
2.	What length of time has this assistant undertaken to serve the minister and/or what engagement in length of time was given to the assistant by the minister?
3.	In brief, what particular qualities of this assistant led the minister to engage him?


John Robert (Jack) Nicholson: 1. The Minister of Forestry has taken an executive assistant on staff. His particulars are as follows: Name: David Ross Fitzpatrick; age: thirty years; place of birth: Kelowna, British Columbia.
Education: Southern Okanagan high school; King Edward high school (Sr. matriculation); University of B.C. (B.Com.); University of Maryland (graduate studies); Columbia University school of business (graduate studies).
Experience:	Assistant to commissioner,
royal commission into B.C. fruit industry (six months); carried out marketing and economic research studies and sales promotion work for
B.C. Tree Fruits Ltd. and Sunrype Ltd. (eighteen months); assistant manager, International Factory Sales Service Ltd. (two years).
Initial and present salary: $8,550.
2.	At the pleasure of the governor in council.
3.	Mr. Fitzpatrick possesses the educational background, business experience, personality, personal character and stability required for the position of executive assistant. He is a native son of British Columbia and has a wide knowledge of the province.
In addition to his experience since graduation from university, Mr. Fitzpatrick worked as a laboratory technical and quality control inspector in a pulp and paper mill between university terms.


N.H.A. MORTGAGES  CHANGES IN INTEREST RATES, ETC.
Mr. Fisher: Have there been changes in either the rates of interest or the maximums borrowable or the length of time of mortgages on loans made under the National Housing Act since its inception and, if so, on what dates did such various changes take effect?


John Richard Garland: Changes in rates of interest, loan amounts, and terms of loans, for loans on single detached houses for owner occupancy, and on multiple dwelling structures for rental occupancy, financed under the National Housing Act, 1954, were as follows:-
Questions


INSURED LOANS
[Stage Direction]
Owner-Occupied Single	Rental-Occupancy
Detached Dwellings	Multiple-Dwelling Structures
Maximum Amount of
Maximum Rate of Interest	Maximum Loan-to-Value Ratio	Maximum Amount of LoanO)	Maximum Term of Loan	Maximum Loan-to-Value Ratio	Loan*1 2* per Dwelling Unit	Maximum Term of LoanDate	Per Cent	Per Cent of Lending Value	$	Year	Per Cent of Lending Value	$	YearsMar.	1954	... 5.50	90% of 1st $8,000, 70% of remainder	12,800	30	80%	7,000	25(Foregoing at inception of National Housing Act, 1954) Feb. 1955	
5.25	Mar.,	1956	... 5.50	Jan.,	1957	... 6.00	Dec.,	1957	90% of 1st $12,000,70% of remainder	Mar.,	1958	8,250	Dec.,	1959	... 6.75	Dec.,	1960	95% of 1st $12,000 70% of remainder	14,200«>
' 14,900	35	85%	8,750	35Nov.,	1961	.... 6.50	June,	1963	... It was announced in the effected:- 6.25 95% of 1st $13,00070% of remainder	presentation of the budget that the following changes would be 15,600	(1)	The maximum loan amounts shown, do not include the mortgage insurance fee which is added to the loan. Additional allowances of up to $500 may also be added where provision is made for fall-out shelters.(2)	The maximum loan amounts which came into effect in December, 1961, provided for a maximum of $14,200 on a house of three bedrooms or less, and $14,900 on a house of four or more bedrooms.
[Stage Direction]
Questions

[Stage Direction]
Limited Dividend Corporations	Primary Industries
Maximum	Maximum Maximum Maximum Maximum
Interest	Maximum Loan-to-	Term of Interest Loan-to- Term ofKate	Value Ratio	Loan	Rate Value Ratio Loan
Loans to Corporations Sponsored By
Municipalities and Charitable Institutions Entrepreneurs
Per Cent
Date	Per Cent Per Cent of Lending Value Years Per Cent of Lending Years
Value
March, 1954	 3.75	90	90	50	4.75	80	15
(Foregoing at inception of National Housing Act, 1954)
Feb. 1955	
3.50	ffOMar. 1956	
3.75	4-75Jan. 1957	
4.25	5.25Oct. 1957	
4.50	5.50April 1958	
4.25	5.25Oct. 1958	
4.625	5.625April 1959	
5.125	6-00Oct. 1959	
5.875April 1960	
85Oct. 1960	
5.125	90Jan. 1961	
85Apr. 1961	
5.375Oct. 1961	
5.125
* The National Housing Act Regulations do not prescribe maximum amounts for loans to limited-dividend corporations or for loans to primary industries.
Loans to Universities*
Maximum Rate Maximum Loan- Maximum Amount Maximum Term
Date	of Interest	to-Value Ratio	of Loan	of LoanPer Cent	Per Cent of	$ Per Student	YearsAppraisal Value	AccommodatedDec. 1960	
5.125	90	7,000	50
(Foregoing at introduction of provision for these loans)
April 1961	 5.375
Oct. 1961	 5.125
* NHA loans to universities may be secured by mortgage loans.

Mr. Ricard: Since the establishment of the winter works program and until April 1, 1963 (a) what was the total amount of the federal government's share paid out in the constituency of St. Hyacinthe-Bagot (b) what was the amount of the federal government's share paid out in each of the municipalities in the said constituency?


Mr. Byrne:: Since the establishment of the winter works program and until April 1, 1963.
(a)	The total amount of the federal government's share paid out in the constituency of St. Hyacinthe-Bagot has amounted to $98,921.01.
(b)	The amount of the federal government's share paid out in each of the municipalities in St. Hyacinthe-Bagot constituency is contained in the attached summary sheet.

Questions


SUMMARY OF FEDERAL GOVERNMENT PAYMENTS UNDER MUNICIPAL WINTER WORKS INCENTIVE PROGRAM CONSTITUENCY OF ST. HYACINTHE-BAGOT
[Stage Direction]
Municipality	1958-59	1959-60	1960-61	1961-62	1962-63 (*) Total	$	$	$	$	$	$Douville	-	27,299.53	-	27,299.53La Providence	-	-	3,897.69	10,735.51	-	14,633.20Notre Dame de St.	Hyacinthe	-	-	144.15	219.92	-	364.07St. Charles-sur-Richelieu. . .	-	-	-	1,730.00	-	1,730.00St. Damase	-	651.18	1,444.06	-	-	2,095.24St. Denis	-	-	-	2,595.79	-	2,595.79St. Germain	-	-	-	3,002.46	-	3,002.46St. Helene	-	-	-	-	-	-St. Hyacinthe	877.45	-	11,590.95	-	-	12,468.40St. Joseph	-	-	3,740.88	-	-	3,740.88St. Madeleine	-	-	-	-	-	-St. Nazaire d'Acton	-	-	274.76	93.87	-	368.63Ste. Rosalie	-	-	-	-	-	-Saint Simon	-	228.99	-	228.99St. Theodore d'Acton	-	-	-	-	-	-St. Thomas d'Acquin	-	-	2,132.78	28,261.04	-	30,393.82Totals	877.45	880.17	23,225.27	73,938.12	-	98,921.01
(*) No payments have been made under 1962-63 program as of April 1, 1963.
(Translation):

Mr. Valade: 1.	Did the C.B.C. employ one Paul Emile Mailloux as chief of T.V. studio watchmen-group F?
2.	If so (a) when (b) what are his qualifications (c) what was his former occupation (d) was he ever a security officer or did he ever hold such position?
3.	Were other applications received for the position in question and, if so (a) from whom (b) what were the qualifications of each of the other applicants?
4.	What is the authority for Mr. Mailloux's appointment?


Yvon Dupuis: The C.B.C. advises that this was a matter of internal policy. It is not customary to ask crown corporations for information concerning their employees or other matters concerning their internal administration.
(Text):


R.C.A.F. BASIC JET TRAINING AIRCRAFT
Mr. Siefanson: 1.	When was the order for the basic jet training aircraft (the Tutor) placed, and with what company?
2.	How many have been ordered and what is the cost?
3.	When will the R.C.A.F. receive delivery of this aircraft?
4.	Where will the R.C.A.F. try out the Tutor
and train instructors prior to putting it into operation for its pilot-training program?
5.	At what R.C.A.F. pilot-training bases will this aircraft be used?
6.	Will other aircraft also be used at these bases and, if so, what aircraft?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: 1. June 12, 1962 with Canadair Limited, Montreal.
2.	190. Estimated total cost-$88,610,000.
3.	The first Tutor aircraft is scheduled for delivery in December, 1963.
4.	The R.C.A.F. will test the Tutor for performance at Uplands, for cold weather at Churchill and for hot weather at a base still to be specified. A nucleus of aircrew instructors will be given lecture courses at the contractor's plant and subsequently will train the flying instructors at Moose Jaw starting May 1, 1964.
5.	At the basic and advance flying training schools.
6.	Yes, T33 aircraft for training and Expeditors for communication.


ARDA PROGRAMS, QUEBEC
[Stage Direction]
Question No. 668
Mr. Laprise:: 1.	What works programs have been undertaken under the Agricultural Rehabilitation and Development Act, indicating the nature of each, in (a) the province of Quebec (b) the constituency of Cha-pleau?
2.	What is the total cost of each of these programs?
3.	What works programs are being considered for the near future in (a) the province of Quebec (b) the constituency of Chapleau?
4.	What amounts will be allocated to each of these programs?


Bruce Silas Beer: 1. (a), 2, 4. Forty five projects have been approved in the province of Quebec under the Agricultural Rehabilitation and Development Act. The nature of these projects, the total cost of each, and the amounts allocated as the federal share are set forth in the following table:

Questions
Nature of Project	Total	Federal
	Cost	Share
Farm woodlot inventory and land capability survey in Mont-magny county	$185,000	$92,500Soil and water conservation-improvement of the Beauregard waterway in Bagot and Drummond counties	101,597	50,798Soil and water conservation-improvement of the St. Teles-phore waterway in Soulange co.	24,523	12,261Soil and water conservation-improvement of the Lebeau-Le-compte waterway in Deux-Montagnes and Terrebonne counties	54,911	27,455A study of farm woodlots in l'lslet, Kamouraska and Riviere du Loup counties	80,164	40,082Farm woodlot management televised courses prepared by Macdonald College in French and English	5,000	2,500Soil and water conservation-improvement of the Bergevin watercourse in Chateauguay county	13,352	6,676Soil and water conservation-improvement of the Matteau watercourse in Drummond and Arthabaska counties	21,655	10,827Soil and water conservation-improvement of the Trois-Ri-vieres-du-pot-au-Beurre watercourse in Richelieu and Ya-maska counties	51,313	25,656Soil and water conservation-improvement of the Corbeil watercourse in Deux-Montagnes county	24,965	12,482Soil and water conservation-improvement of the Decharge de la Grande Ligne in Dorchester county	21,765	10,882Soil and water conservation-improvement of the Riviere du Sud watercourse in Iberville and Missisquoi counties	62,014	1,007Soil and water conservation-improvement of the Taillon watercourse in Arthabaska county	19,898	9,949Soil and water conservation-improvement of La Grande Coulee watercourse in Rimouski county	19,351	9,675Soid and water conservation-improvement of the Rousseau watercourse in Montmagny county	23,874	11,937Soil and water conservation-improvement of the Royon watercourse in Huntingdon county	13,507	6,753Soil and water conservation-improvement of the Menard-Bourbonnais watercourse in Soulanges county	12,872	6,436Soil and water conservation-improvement of the Decharges Des 14 watercourse in Vercheres county	19,965	9,982Soil and water conservation-improvement of Des Trente watercourse in Laprairie county	24,882	12,441Soil and water conservation-improvement of the Lefebvre watercourse in Chateauguay county	14,900	7,450Soil and water conservation-improvement of the Duquette watercourse in Deux-Montagnes county	23,610	11,805Soil and water conservation-improvement of the Dagenais-Besner watercourse in Vaudreuil county	10,768	5,384Soil and water conservation-improvement of the Pir Vir watercourse in St. Jean county	22,293	11,146Soil and water conservation-improvement of the St. Cyr watercourse in Yamaska county	11,745	5,872Soil and water conservation-improvement of La Cabane Ronde watercourse in L'Assomption county	16,160	8,080Soil and water conservation-improvement of Riviere Belanger in Lac St. Jean-Ouest county	48,831	24,415Soil and water conservation-improvement of Milton watercourse in ShefTord county	24,253	12,126Soil and water conservation-improvement of the Ruisseau des Dames watercourse in Levis county	15,269	7,634Soil and water conservation-improvement of the St. Michel watercourse in Napierville county	15,576	7,788
Questions Nature of Project
Soil and water conservation-improvement of the St. Eustache watercourse in Lotbiniere county Soil and water conservation-improvement of the Bellevue watercourse in Vercheres county Soil and water conservation-improvement of the Landry-Lemire watercourse in Arthabaska and Drummond counties Soil and water conservation-improvement of the Banville ou Melchior Poirier watercourse in Rimouski county Soil and water conservation-improvement of the Gendron watercourse in Riviere du Loup county Soil and water conservation-improvement of Partie Inferieure de la Riviere Noire watercourse in Drummond county Soil and water conservation-improvement of Ruisseau des Grandes Prairies watercourse in l'Assomption county Soil and water conservation-improvement of Brosseau in St. Jean and Napierville counties
Soil and water conservation-improvement of west arm of the Blanche river watercourse in Matapedia and Matane counties
The development of a model sugar bush as an example of the practices that should be followed Research in connection with the development of the resources of the Rouge valley
Research in connection with the development of the resources of the Brome region
Soil and water conservation-improvement of the Riviere Launay watercourse in Abitibi West county Soil and water conservation-improvement of the Riviere Laflamme watercourse in Abitibi East county The acquisition and development of marginal farm lands as a co-operative blueberry development in the county of Abitibi West
Total
Cost
27,800
14,457
25,306
47,716
29,693

Federal
Share
13,900
7,228
12,653
23,858
14,846

1.	(b) Three projects have been approved in the constituency of Chapleau. They are the two soil and water conservation projects listed for the counties of Abitibi West and Abitibi East, and the blueberry development project for the county of Abitibi West.
3.	(a) One project is still under consideration. This is a rural development research project in the lower south shore area of the St. Lawrence river.
(b) None.


RED RIVER
Mr. Stefanson: 1.	What new wharfs were built or what wharf extensions and repairs were carried out to wharfs on the Red river, Manitoba, from March 31, 1958 to April 8, 1963; when, where and at what cost?
2.	What plans are there for new wharfs, extensions or repairs to wharfs on the Red river, Manitoba, for 1963-64?


Hubert Badanai: 1. No new wharves were built but the following extensions and repairs were carried out:
Selkirk:	1958-59,	$53,382.60;	1960-61,$24,691.00;	1961-62,	$7,058.00;	1962-63,

Winnipeg:	(Alexander avenue): 1959-60,
$163.01; 1960-61, $15,713.37; 1961-62, $6,765.00.
Red river mouth:	1958-59,	$13,275.00;
1959-60, $14,764.00; 1960-61, $234.00.
2.	No new wharves or extensions are planned but repairs will be carried out to the Alexander avenue wharf at Winnipeg.


NEWFOUNDLAND PROPOSALS FOR FISHERIES DEVELOPMENT
Mr. Fisher: 1.	Has the Department of Fisheries examined the proposals for national fisheries development presented by the government of Newfoundland and, if so, what is the gist of the department's analysis of the "five primary objectives" of the ideal "national policy" given on page 7 of the Newfoundland presentation?
2.	What comments has the department prepared on each of the sets of recommendations under the five objectives listed on pages 8-10 of the presentation?


Mr. Robichaud:: 1. Yes. The "five primary objectives" are broad generalizations which represent desirable ends for any development program.
2. The recommendations on pages 8-10 involve government policy. These will be considered at the national fisheries conference

referred to in the speech from the throne. Government policy will be announced at the appropriate time.


SUBSIDY ON FLUID MILK
Mr. Frenette: 1.	Does the agricultural stabilization board pay subsidies to milk producers when part of their production is marketed as fluid milk?
2.	If not, when, and for what reasons was this policy instituted?


Bruce Silas Beer: 1. Yes. While the agricultural stabilization board does not pay subsidies to milk producers who normally deliver their production for sale in the fluid milk market, certain exceptions are made in the following cases:
(a)	To local producers who supply fluid milk (on a limited basis) to consumers in outlying areas.
(b)	To local producers who supply the fluid milk market on a temporary basis in areas where the normal fluid milk supply is inadequate during certain periods. This applies particularly to resort areas.
(c)	To producers in certain pool milk areas of British Columbia.
Fluid milk producers, however, have benefited from the board's purchase programs for various dairy products.
2. Answered by (1).


WESTMINSTER HOSPITAL, LONDON  EMPLOY- MENT OF GORDON HEAD
Mr. Nesbitt: 1.	Is a Mr. Gordon Head presently employed on the staff of Westminster hospital at London, Ontario?
2.	For what length of time has he been employed at that institution?
3.	In what capacities has he been employed?
4.	What is the description of his present position?
5.	Has he received a promotion within the last two years?
6.	If such a promotion was made, did it involve an increase in salary?
7.	What is Mr. Head's present salary?
8.	What is the date of his retirement?
9.	Does he perform any duties in addition to his regular employment, such as lecturing to nurses and interns?
10.	Has he developed any laboratory techniques which are in general use in either Canada or the United States?


Mr. Carter:: 1. Yes.
2.	From March 12, 1939 to September 11, 1942 and from July 1, 1951 to the present time.
3.	Hospital orderly grade 1; hospital orderly grade 2; hospital laboratory helper grade 1; hospital laboratory helper grade 2; assistant technician 2.
4.	Under direction to perform routine urinalysis tests, kidney function tests, mosenthal, concentration and dilution; tests for bile,
Questions
urobilin, urobilinogen; fecal tests for occult blood, darkfield (V.D.S. examinations); assists in the autopsy room on call nights and week ends every third week.
5.	No.
6.	N/A.
7.	$3,420 per annum.
8.	Mr. Head will reach the normal retirement age of 65 on April 18, 1964.
9.	No.
10.	No.


FEDERAL EMPLOYEES, YORK NORTH CONSTITUENCY
Mr. Addison: How many federal government employees work in the constituency of York North?


Mr. Pepin:: Information on the number of federal government employees by constituency is not available. The constituency of York North is part of York county. Information is available for York county at September 30, 1962. At that date the economic zones which cover the county contained 12,695 Civil Service Act employees; of these 11,365 were employed in the city of Toronto and the remainder in other parts of the county. No information is available by economic zones for persons employed by the federal government who are not Civil Service Act employees.


CONSTRUCTION OF CORRECTIONAL INSTITUTION, GREY-BRUCE CONSTITUENCY
Mr. Winkler: 1.	Does the government plan on proceeding with a program of correctional institution construction as announced by the Department of Justice in 1962?
2.	Does the Minister of Justice plan on proceeding with the construction of such an institution in the Markdale-Dundalk area of Grey-Bruce as announced by a predecessor and on which public funds have been spent?


Donald Stovel Macdonald: 1. Yes, but with certain amendments.
2. No. The facility proposed for the Markdale-Dundalk area will be located in an area deemed more suitable from the point of view of the over-all penitentiary operation in Ontario.


FISHERIES EDUCATION, UNIVERSITY OF MANITOBA
Mr. Stefanson: Has the government received a request from the University of Manitoba for financial assistance for its extension department to carry out education among fishermen in fisheries techniques and cooperatives producing and selling and, if so, what action has been taken, or is planned?


Hédard-J. Robichaud: This government has not received such a request.

Questions


POWER DEVELOPMENT SURVEY, NELSON RIVER, MAN.
Mr. Slefanson: 1.	Has the government signed an agreement with the province of Manitoba to share in the cost of the survey for proposed power development on the Nelson river and, if so (a) when was the agreement signed, what is the estimated cost, and how will the cost be shared (b) when will the survey report be ready?
2.	In conjunction with the power survey, has the government considered making a survey to determine the feasibility of creating a waterway from Hudson bay to lake Winnipeg?


Mr, Turner:: 1. Yes
(a)	(i) 18 February 1963; (ii) $1 million for phases I and II; (iii) Canada will pay 50 per cent of the actual cost not exceeding $500,000.
(b)	The studies now commissioned for these phases under the agreement are to be completed by March 31, 1964; the report on them should be ready shortly thereafter.
2. An examination of the Nelson river navigation possibilities will be made in conjunction with these studies.


* INQUIRY INTO STOCK TRANSACTIONS
Mr. Fisher: 1.	Has the Prime Minister come to a decision on the need for an inquiry on his part or on the part of a house committee into all stock transactions carried on by the firms which had on salary the several contractors engaged to help the Minister of Finance in budget preparation, in so far as the period immediately before the budget presentation and on Wednesday, June 19, in the hours and minutes immediately before the announcement of the withdrawal of paragraph 11 of the Excise Tax Act resolution?
2.	If not, when does he expect to make such a decision?
3.	If so, what is it?


Mr. Pearson:: Mr. Speaker, there is no evidence which would warrant any such special inquiry.


FISHERIES RESEARCH LABORATORY, LONDON, ONT.
Mr. Thomas: 1.	Has the government decided to replace the fisheries research laboratory now located in London, Ontario?
2.	If so, will the new laboratory be constructed in the London area?


Hédard-J. Robichaud: 1. No.
2. Answered by No. 1.


PASSES TO MEMBERS FOR AIR TRAVEL
Mr. Mather: Is the government giving consideration to furnishing additional air passes to members whose distance from home constituencies renders travel on train passes impractical?


Jean-Charles Cantin: This matter is not under consideration.
[Mr. Hobichaud.l


SUMMERSIDE, P.E.I., EXPERIMENTAL FOX FARM
Mr. Macquarrie: 1.	Has the government decided to close the experimental fox farm at Summerside, Prince Edward Island and, if so, what were the reasons for such decision?
2.	What is the approximate date of such closing?
3.	Will the animals on this farm be transferred to Ontario?
4.	Have arrangements been made for employment of the staff presently employed?


Bruce Silas Beer: 1. No. Provision for research on commercial production of fur-bearing animals forms a portion of the planning for livestock research in the Department of Agriculture. The latter is currently under broad scale review and the future of the experimental fur ranch at Summerside, P.E.I., is part of the deliberations.
2, 3 and 4. See answer to 1.


N.H.A. HOMES FORECLOSED, ROYAL HEIGHTS, B.C.
Mr. Mather: 1.	How many houses financed under the National Housing Act are under foreclosure in Royal Heights in north Surrey, B.C.?
2.	How many of these houses have basements?
3.	For what reason were they subject to foreclosure?
4.	What is the basic mortgage for a three-bedroom house in this area?
5.	Have mortgages dropped in this area in the last (a) 12 months (b) 18 months (c) two years and, if so. what has caused the drop?
6.	How many foreclosed mortgaged houses in this area have been sold by C.M.H.C. during (a) 1962 (b) 1963?
7.	Have any of the foreclosed mortgaged houses been rented and, if so, who was responsible for their rental?
8.	Does Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation staff engage in the sale of foreclosed mortgaged houses and, if so, how long on the average does it take to sell a house, and what time is spent per salesman?
9.	How much, in dollars, has been spent from public funds to rent, and sell these homes?


John Richard Garland: 1. Royal Heights district is located mainly in the municipality of Delta, B.C. The northerly portion extends into the municipality of Surrey, B.C. In the whole of Royal Heights 41 houses, financed under the National Housing Act, have been acquired by foreclosure.
2.	19.
3.	Default of mortgage payments.
4.	The amount of loan varies with size, type, and quality of house and lot. Typical loans in this area on the most common three bedroom, full basement house ranged from $11,100 to $11,600.
5.	The level of loan for a typical house referred to in 4 above, has decreased as follows: (a) in the past 12 months-no decrease; (b) in the past 18 months-no decrease; (c) in the past 24 months-$400 decrease-because of market conditions.

6.	(a) 11; (b) 3.
7.	Yes. 18 by Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation.
8.	Yes. On the average, it takes 3 months to sell a house. There are no figures available that indicate how much salesman's time is spent per house.
9.	The cost of preparing for sale or rent, and other sales expense, are a direct charge to the mortgage insurance fund. A total of $9,255 was charged for the repair and improvement of all the houses referred to in 1 above. Other overhead charges are absorbed by the corporation but a breakdown is not available as the administration of fund properties represents only a small portion of the corporation's property management function.


CARLSON NELSON
Mr. Coates: Has Carlson Nelson been dismissed from the fisheries patrol boat MYA and, if so, for what reason?


Hédard-J. Robichaud: He was replaced by a person with military service.
(Translation):


SALE OF LAND OWNED BY CANADIAN ARSENALS
Mr. Pigeon: 1.	Did the government call for tenders for the sale of property owned by Canadian Arsenals Limited at St. Janvier and St. Therfese and if so, what are the names of the tenderers, and the
amounts tendered?
2.	If not, how does the government intend to dispose of this property?


Mr. Drury:: 1. No. Canadian Arsenals Ltd. has no land in St. Janvier nor in St. Therese.
2. Not applicable.
(Text):


FOREIGN INVESTMENT CONTROL OF CANADIAN INDUSTRIES
Mr. Malheson: What is the percentage of foreign investment control each year commencing 1956 in the following industries (a) mining and smelting (b) manufacturing (including some resource industries such as pulp and paper) ?


Mr. Sharp:: Percentage of capital employed under foreign control at year-end
(a) Mining and	1956	1957	1958	1959smelting (excluding petroleum and natural gas)	58	61	6Q	61
Orders for Returns
1956	1957	1958	1959(b) Manufacturing 52	56	57	57(percentage of	pulp and paper 54	55	59	49
included in manufacturing)
Later data are not yet available.


ARDA PILOT AREA, NOVA SCOTIA
Mr. Coates: Has the pilot area under ARDA been selected in Nova Scotia and, if so, what county or counties does it cover?


Bruce Silas Beer: No. Discussions are under way between federal and provincial ARDA officers but no area has yet been selected.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. Mather: 1.	What was the total number of (a) men (b) women, in each branch of the armed forces on February 1 in each of the years 1961, 1962 and 1963?
2.	What was the total number of civilian employees in the Department of National Defence and its purchasing agencies on each of the above dates?
3.	What was the total cost of the armed forces, the Department of National Defence, and its purchasing agencies in the years ending on the above dates?


Yvon Dupuis: Return tabled.


REGISTER OF UNEMPLOYED, FORT WILLIAM-PORT ARTHUR
Mr. Fisher: 1.	What has been the index of those registering as out of work and seeking work at the unemployment insurance commission offices in Fort William and Port Arthur since January 1, 1958, month by month, in comparison to the total number of unemployment insurance commission numbers registered, month by month?
2.	During this same period, month by month, how does this index compare with the provincial and national index?



ASSISTANTS AND SECRETARIES OF MINISTERS

[Stage Direction]
Question No. 615
Paul Raymond Martineau: 1.	What are the names of the executive assistants, special assistants, private secretaries, and associate private secretaries for each of the ministers of the crown?
2.	What is for each such person the date of his or her appointment and his or her salary?
3.	What is for each minister the total number of his personal staff?


Mr. Pickersgill:: I would like to make this an order for return, and I hope the hon. member would agree that personal staff means staff of the minister's office.


Paul Raymond Martineau: That should be obvious.
1596	HOUSE OF
Federal-Provincial Relations



EXPENDITURES THROUGH FARM STABILIZATION BOARD

Mr. Smallwood: 1.	What were the amounts of money spent by the federal government through the farm stabilization board for the years 1958, 1959, 1960, 1961 and 1962?
2.	What were the amounts of money spent on the support of hogs, butter and milk?
3.	What were the amounts spent in each province through the farm stabilization board for these years?


Bruce Silas Beer: Return tabled.
(Translation):



DOMINION-PROVINCIAL RELATIONS MUNICIPAL LOAN LEGISLATION    MOTION FOR ADJOURNMENT UNDER STANDING ORDER 26

Hon. Leon Balcer (Three Rivers):: Mr. Speaker, I desire to ask leave to move the adjournment of the house under standing order 26 for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance.
This question stems from the statement made yesterday in the Quebec legislature by the premier of the province of Quebec, Hon. Jean Lesage, in which he vehemently denounced as a very serious infringement upon provincial autonomy, the proposed federal assistance to municipalities, and various other bills or resolutions submitted to the house by the government.
That statement, following what has been called his fiscal ultimatum, accentuates considerably the general uneasiness within confederation, of which Mr. Lesage said recently that it was being given its last chance.
Mr. Speaker, it is most urgent to discuss this matter immediately.
(Text):


Mr. Speaker:: I am quite prepared-indeed, I am somewhat anxious-to hear further comments on this question, if any hon. member has any remarks to make, before I render a decision.
(Translation):


Mr. Remi Paul (Berthier-Maskinonge-De-lanaudiere):: Mr. Speaker, the motion introduced by the hon. member for Three Rivers is based on standing order 26. An examination of that section reveals that the adjournment of the house can be moved for the purpose of discussing a definite matter. In my opinion, that is the first point we must consider concerning the advisability of granting or refusing the adjournment of the house.
If we take a close look at the proposal made by the hon. member for Three Rivers, we notice that it concerns in particular the examination of government order No. 5 on
[Mr. Martineau.l

today's order paper, that is Bill C-76 to provide assistance for municipalities. Consequently, the motion for adjournment has a very definite objective.
On the other hand, standing order 26 states further on that the matter must be of public importance.
Now, in this case, we have certainly a matter of public importance, and it is under the jurisdiction of the house, as it is a bill following a resolution which had been submitted to the house, and as it had been completely impossible, while discussing that resolution, to obtain, either from the Prime Minister (Mr. Pearson) or from the Minister of Finance (Mr. Gordon) any detailed information with regard to the jurisdiction of the federal government on the matter.
The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Diefen-baker), the hon. member for Pontiac-Temis-camingue (Mr. Martineau) and others raised the point of the constitutional nature of the bill. Therefore if we refer to Beauchesne's citation No. 100 we find that the conditions for the adjournment of the house are met in the motion of the hon. member for Three Rivers, and the matter of urgency is to be considered, because the discussion of the resolution is not so much a question of dealing with the request of the prime minister of the province of Quebec, as of analysing a bill, a situation which affects the very basis of Canadian confederation, where the future of all provinces is at stake.
Those are the reasons why this question is a definite matter of urgent public importance.
As to the urgency of this debate, I am afraid that Mr. Speaker will declare that we still have a day of budget discussion before us and that this would be the time to deal with the problem; but considering that Wednesday afternoon does not give hon. members much time to study this matter, and that the question period is not yet closed, I feel that such a reason would not be sufficient to justify the rejection of the motion. That is why I respectfully submit that you should grant the request of the hon. member for Three Rivers.


Mr. Gerard Chapdelaine (Sherbrooke):: After reading carefully standing order 26, it becomes evident that the motion of the hon. member for Three Rivers is in order but at this stage I fail to see the reason for the intervention of the hon. member for Berthier-Maskinonge-Delanaudiere, because there has not been any indication that the motion was opposed. The motion has not yet been discussed and it has not been opposed by

the government members. I believe, therefore, that his intervention at this stage is untimely and inappropriate.


Hon. Lionel Chevrier (Minister of Justice):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to speak on the motion introduced by the hon. member for Three Rivers to adjourn the house for the reason set forth in the motion before us.
As you know, Mr. Speaker, the adoption of such a motion is subjected to four prerequisites, the first of which is the urgency of debate. The second is the administrative responsibility of the government. I would respectfully suggest that a statement made by the premier of another province does not involve the administrative responsibility of the government.
Furthermore, Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Berthier-Maskinonge-Delanaudiere answered his own argument when he said that the house has the right to discuss this matter in the present budget debate; thus, there is no urgency in the proposal of the hon. member for Three Rivers.
In those circumstances, it seems to me that this matter can be discussed adequately during the budget debate, providing of course that the hon. members opposite allow us to get to that item of the orders of the day. If the house had accepted, last night, the suggestion-
(Text):


Mr. Diefenbaker:: It is not "hon. gentlemen opposite" who are holding you up.
(Translation):


Lionel Chevrier: That is precisely what the prime minister-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Lionel Chevrier: The right hon. Leader of the Opposition says that hon. gentlemen opposite are not holding us up. Last night, the leader of the house offered to our hon. friends opposite a suggestion which would have enabled us to accelerate the discussion of the budget. It seems that the suggestion was not accepted. If the suggestion had been accepted, we could have discussed the budget and, of course, that matter as quickly as the house would like to.
Now, I say to the right hon. Leader of the Opposition that if there are delays, they come from his own partisans.
I therefore respectfully suggest, Mr. Speaker, that since that matter can be discussed in the course of the present budget debate, there is no urgency.
Federal-Provincial Relations


Paul Raymond Martineau: Mr. Speaker, on the point of order-


Mr. Speaker:: I think I have heard enough-


Some hon. Members:: Sit down.


Paul Raymond Martineau: Mr. Speaker, I should like-


Mr. Speaker:: No, it is not necessary. First of all, I wish to thank all hon. members for their contribution.
(Text):
The matter I have to decide is a motion for the adjournment of the house made for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance under standing order 26.
"Urgency" within this rule does not apply to the matter itself, but it means "urgency of debate", when the ordinary opportunities provided by the rules of the house do not permit the subject to be brought on early enough and public interest demands that discussion take place immediately.
That is citation 100 (3) of Beauchesne's fourth edition.
The reason for allowing such a motion is to afford members an opportunity of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance which they could do in no other way.
That was a decision of Mr. Speaker Black, as reported in Journals of the house for March 31, 1931, page 50.
The urgency of debate is something that has to be considered ... In my experience it has never happened in the house that while the speech from the throne was currently debated a motion for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance under the new standing order 26 was agreed to.
That is a quotation from Mr. Speaker, taken from Hansard for January 11, 1956, page 20. Also, during the debate on the address on January 20, 1956 there is the following statement by Mr. Speaker, as reported at page 343 of Hansard:
-whenever there is a debate like the one currently going on, (address in reply) which gives the opportunity to hon. members to discuss a wide range of subjects, motions such as this one have not been allowed.
Then in Hansard for June 27, 1961 I read this at page 7105, Mr. Speaker Michener having expressed a similar view with regard to a motion under standing order 26 during the budget debate. He said:
It seems to me that it is a matter which could very readily be debated in the budget debate-
Later on the same page he added:
I accept the proposition that this is an urgent and important public matter to which the Leader of the Opposition draws attention. It is a definite matter of public importance. However, that is not the criterion in determining whether standing order 26 should be applied. The criterion is whether there is an opportunity to debate this matter in an effective way.

Federal-Provincial Relations
Mr. Speaker Michener concluded his remarks as follows, as reported at page 7106:
-I am not satisfied that there is not ample opportunity to put before the house and the government all the considerations that apply to this important matter in the debate which will follow immediately after the calling of the orders of the day. Therefore, with regret-
And I should like to use these words myself.
I cannot accede to the request of the-
-hon. member for Three Rivers (Mir. Balcer).


Mr. Cameron (Nanaimo-Cowichan-The Islands):: Mr. Speaker, I ask leave, seconded by the hon. member for Comox-Alberni-


Mr, Balcer:: On a point of order, I wonder whether Your Honour would let me make a few remarks.


Some hon. Members:: No.


Léon Balcer: If your decision is final I should like to appeal your ruling.


Mr. Speaker:: Yes, it is final.


Léon Balcer: Then I have no other recourse but to appeal your ruling.


Lionel Chevrier: There is no appeal; you decided that one yourselves.


Mr. Speaker:: I regret to inform the hon. member-perhaps I should not use the word "regret" and I would delete it-that by decision of my predecessor, and others, he ruled that there was no appeal under standing order 26.
(Translation):


Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker, I am sorry but I must challenge your last ruling to the effect that there is no appeal from your previous ruling.
(Text):


Mr. Speaker:: Under the circumstances, you are appealing from my ruling that there is no appeal under standing order 26, and that is in order.
(Translation):


Mr. Gilles Gregoire (Lapointe):: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, a question is brought up by requesting that a matter of national interest be considered, I-
(Text):


Mr. Speaker:: There is a decision of the Chair from which the hon. member has appealed to the house. Those in favour of sustaining the Speaker's ruling will please say yea.


Some hon. Members:: Yea.


Mr. Speaker:: Those against will please say nay.


Some hon. Members:: Nay.
[Mr. Speaker.)


Mr. Speaker:: In my opinion the yeas have it.
And more than five members having risen:


Mr. Speaker:: Call in the members. The question is an appeal to the house from a ruling of the Chair which is as follows:
The hon. member for Three Rivers (Mr. Balcer) asked leave to move the adjournment of the house for the purpose of discussing a matter of urgent public importance, and stated the subject to be in part as follows:
(Translation):
The statement made yesterday in the Quebec legislature by the premier of the province of Quebec, Hon. Jean Lesage, during which he vehemently denounced as a serious encroachment on provincial autonomy the proposed federal assistance to municipalities, and various other bills.
(Text):
I ruled that the matter was not a question of urgency of debate, that the subject could be discussed during the budget debate which, in the ordinary course of events, will follow later this day. The hon. member for Three Rivers having appealed to the house from the said decision, the Chair ruled that, in accordance with decisions given by previous Speakers, the question in regard to urgency of debate under standing order 26 could not be appealed to the house. Whereupon the hon. member for Three Rivers appealed to the house from this ruling.


Mr. Mackasey:: Mr. Speaker, I was paired
with the hon. member for Bow River (Mr. Woolliams). Had I voted I would have voted to sustain your ruling.


Miss LaMarsh:: Mr. Speaker, I was paired with the hon. member for Victoria-Carleton (Mr. Flemming). Had I voted I would have voted to sustain your ruling.


Mr. Teillei:: Mr. Speaker, I was paired with the hon. member for Portage-Neepawa (Mr. Enns). Had I voted I would have voted to sustain your ruling.


Mr. Turner:: Mr. Speaker, I was paired with the hon. member for Yukon (Mr. Nielsen). Had I voted I would have voted to sustain your ruling.


Mr. Asselin (Noire Dame de Grace):: Mr. Speaker, I was paired with the hon. member for Middlesex West (Mr. Thomas). Had I voted I would have voted to sustain your ruling.
(Translation):


Mr. L. J. Pigeon (Jolielle-L'Assomplion-Monlcalm):: Mr. Speaker, I was paired with the hon. member for Iles-de-la-Madeleine (Mr. Sauve). Had I voted, I would have voted against the motion.
(Text):


Mr. Brown:: Mr. Speaker, I was paired with the hon. member for Simcoe East (Mr. Rynard). Had I voted I would have voted to sustain your ruling.


Mr. MacEachen:: On a point of order-


Colin Cameron: Mr. Speaker, I ask leave, seconded by the hon. member for Comox-Alberni (Mr. Barnett) to move the adjournment of the house under standing order-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Allan Joseph MacEachen: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order in connection with the decision the house has just now reached. You may recall that some days ago a decision was taken on a similar matter, and following that decision there existed some doubt as to the exact nature of the decision. I take it that the decision taken by the house in the present vote is to the effect that the house has decided there is no appeal on the ruling made by the Speaker-


Mr. Churchill:: What is your point of order?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: -under standing order 26, and that the house is bound by this decision for the remainder of the session.


Some hon. Members:: No, no.


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. I think the record speaks for itself.


Mr. Speaker:: I declare my ruling sustained.


An hon. Member:: Res ipsa loquitur.

Motion for Adjournment
Righl Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, in so far as the record is concerned I submit that is a rather indirect statement to make and may be interpreted in two ways. I would say that no firm decision has been made for the balance of this session of parliament.


Lester Bowles Pearson: What kind of decision?


Paul Raymond Martineau: On the point of order, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Labour (Mr. MacEachen) rose when there was nothing before the house; therefore he could not raise a point of order generally applicable for the balance of the session. Therefore the point of order should not have been entertained at all by Your Honour.
(Translation):


Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Speaker, on the same point of order-
(Text):


Mr. Speaker:: I am sorry; the hon. member for Nanaimo-Cowichan-The Islands (Mr. Cameron) had the floor.



NATIONAL DEFENCE


Colin Cameron: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I ask leave, seconded by the hon. member for Comox-Alberni (Mr. Barnett), to move the adjournment of the house under standing order 26 for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely the release yesterday to the press by the Department of National Defence of information of vital concern to the country, to wit the proposed establishment of nuclear ammunition dumps at five points on Canadian soil, before such information was made available to this house and two days before the special committee on defence was due to receive a policy statement from the minister.
I think I do not need to urge the importance of this question to the public of Canada, and if I had any doubt about it the number of telephone calls I had last night from British Columbia would have dispelled that doubt. The urgency of debate lies in this fact; that tomorrow morning at 10.30, at his own request, the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Hellyer) is to make a statement on policy to the committee on defence. I suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, that it is urgently important that this house should now have from the minister some explanation of this extraordinary procedure which has been a gross discourtesy to the house and to the special * committee.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate this opportunity to allay the fears of hon. gentlemen-


An hon. Member:: Speak to the motion.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: -and I merely wish to say that as far as I know there is no truth whatsoever in this report. I am surprised that the hon. gentleman would bring a motion into this house without taking the trouble to check with me and find out whether in fact such a release was issued.


Colin Cameron: On a question of privilege, Mr. Speaker, I take very strong exception to those comments of the minister. He has made not the slightest attempt to deny this report, and it has been attributed to his department all across Canada.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: I said that as far as I know no such release exists.


Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson: Mr. Speaker, if the report is true

and I do not know whether or not it is true-


An hon. Member:: The minister denied it.


Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson: -I think you have only to refer to the provision under standing order 26, paragraph 6(a), which says:
Not more than one such motion can be made at the same sitting;
We have already had one such motion at this sitting, and it has been ruled out of order. I think this paragraph of standing order 26 takes care of a second motion being introduced.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, before you make a ruling I would draw Your Honour's attention to the fact that my hon. friend the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Hellyer) has made a categorical denial of the report on which this motion is based, and it is a rule of this house that the word of an hon. member is accepted on a matter coming within his knowledge.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I am very seldom in agreement with the Secretary of State, but if the Minister of National Defence will rise and categorically say that there is nothing true in this report, then certainly the argument that is advanced by the Secretary of State is irrefutable.


An hon. Member:: The minister did deny it.


Some hon. Members:: He did not.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Mr. Speaker, I thought I had made it perfectly clear that to my knowledge no release of any kind was made.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.

Motions for Papers


Mr. T. C. Douglas (Burnaby-Coquiilam):: Mr. Speaker: I thank the hon. member for
Mr. Speaker, no one wants an assurance from his assistance and comments, with which I the minister merely that no release has been agree. I am now prepared to rule on this issued by his department. What we want an motion to adjourn the proceedings under assurance on is whether it is true that these standing order 26. The wording of the motion five nuclear storage dumps are now being handed to me reads, amongst other things, prepared in Canada.	as follows:


Some hon. Members:: Oh, no.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. Unless the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre has something further to offer the Speaker I am quite prepared to give a decision at the moment.


Mr. Stanley Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):: Mr. Speaker, if you intend to rule on the point of order raised by the hon. member for Medicine Hat I would like to offer a comment with respect to the point he raised. Is that the point on which Your Honour proposes to rule?


Mr. Speaker:: I propose to rule on the request for the adjournment of the proceedings under standing order 26.


Stanley Howard Knowles: The hon. member for Medicine Hat suggests that standing order 26 (6) (a) prevents the making of this motion because 26 (6) (a) says:
Not more than one such motion can be made at the same sitting:
The hon. member for Medicine Hat alleges that a motion has already been made today. I submit that no motion has yet been made today. The hon. member for Three Rivers rose and asked leave to make a motion, but that leave was denied by Your Honour and the house sustained your ruling. Support for my position is found in standing order 26, paragraph 5, which says:
Except with the requisite leave or support, the motion cannot be made.
The hon. member for Three Rivers was not allowed to make a motion and therefore he did not make it. The last time a motion of this kind was made and debated was on January 31 this year. The motion was made by the then leader of the opposition. Hon. members who were here will recall that there was considerable debate on the procedural aspect of the matter and there was a vote similar to the one taken a while ago, only the sides were reversed. This is recorded at page 463 of Journals for January 31, 1963, where there appears the entry:
Whereupon Mr. Pearson, seconded by Mr. Martin (Essex East), moved that this house do now adjourn.
My point is that until the preliminaries are gone through and until leave is given, no motion is made; and as yet today no motion has been made under standing order
26.
-release to the press by the Department of National Defence of information of vital concern to the country, to wit the proposed establishment-
And so on. Then it says:
-before such information was made available to this house and two days before the special committee on defence was due to receive a policy statement from the minister.
If hon. members care to refer to Beau-chesne, citation 100, subsection 2, they will see that it says:
The "definite matter of urgent public importance", for the discussion of which the adjournment of the house may be moved under standing order 26, must be so pressing that public interest will suffer if it is not given immediate attention.
In my view a two day delay in getting this vital information is not of such urgency that the motion should be entertained.



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS


[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 12-Mr. Pigeon:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of all correspondence and reports on the site of the 1967 world's fair exchanged between the government and the following other governments or bodies concerned: (a) international joint commission (b) St. Lawrence seaway authority (United States and Canada) (c) St. Lawrence river pilots' association (d) national harbours board (e) Canadian National Railways (f) Quebec hydro (g) city of Verdun (h) Canadian association for the protection of birds (i) Department of Transport (j) town of St. Lambert (k) government of the province of Quebec (1) Canadian world exhibition corporation.
John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I understand that the hon. member is willing to let this motion stand.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Yes, I agree.
Motion stands.
(Translation):



ST. PIE DE BAGOT, QUE. PENITENTIARY CONSTRUCTION

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 14-Mr. Ricard:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of all correspondence, telegrams and other documents exchanged between the government or any of its agencies or departments and any provincial or municipal government, individuals or organizations since January 1, 1958, in respect of the construction of a penal institution in the parish of St. Pie de Bagot.
Motion agreed to.
28902-5-102
[Stage Direction]
Motions for Papers
(Text):

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 16-Mr. Fisher:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of all correspondence relating to the post of director of the companies branch, from July, 1959 to May 17, 1963, exchanged between the civil service commission, ministers of the crown, any applicants for the post, and any other person or persons, including those who hold provincial offices.
He said: I ask leave to withdraw this. In order that the house may not think it was placed on the order paper frivolously, may I say that I have received the information I want and that the general ambit of the motion as it now appears would have been discomforting to both the civil service commission and myself.
Order discharged and motion withdrawn.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 19-Mr. Graffiey:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of all correspondence, telegrams and other documents exchanged between the federal government or any agency thereof and any of the provincial governments or agents thereof since April 30, 1963, concerning the establishment of a municipal development and loan board.
Motion agreed to.
(Translation):

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 21-Mr. Valade:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of all correspondence, telegrams and other documents exchanged between the federal government and the government of the province of Quebec relating to lotteries.
Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, no correspondence, telegrams or other documents have been exchanged since this government has been in power.
(Text):


Mr. Speaker:: Am I to understand from the hon. member that the motion is withdrawn?


Georges-J. Valade: Yes.
Motion withdrawn.
(Translation):



JOINT DOMINION-PROVINCIAL PLANS

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 24-Mr. Marlineau:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of all correspondence, telegrams and other documents exchanged between the government, or any agencies or departments thereof, and any provincial department since April 21, 1963, relating to joint plans.

He said: Mr. Speaker, I understand that the Secretary of State would have preferred the motion to read as follows:
-relating to jointly financed plans.
As far as I am concerned, I have no objection to the suggested amendment.
(Text):
John Whitney Pickersgill: With that amendment it is agreeable to the government.


Mr. Speaker:: Is the motion agreed to, subject to the amendment as stated by the minister?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 26-Mr. Fisher:
That an	humble	address	be	presented	to	HisExcellency	praying	that he	will	cause to	be	laid
before this house a copy of the long term agreement signed by the Canadian wheat board and the China Resources Company covering the period June 1, 1961 to December 19, 1963.
He said: I have been asked by the minister to let this motion stand until next week.
Motion stands.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 27-Mr. Fisher:
That an	humble	address	be	presented	to	HisExcellency	praying	that he	will	cause to	be	laid
before this house a copy of all contracts entered into between the Canadian wheat board and the China Resources Company for the sale of grain under the long term agreement between the Canadian wheat board and the China Resources Company.
He said: A request has also been received with regard to this motion, and I am willing to let it stand for a week.
Motion stands.
AIR TRANSPORT BOARD ORDER 1865 Motion No. 30-Mr. Barnett:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of the minutes of the proceedings and transcript of evidence of the hearings of the air transport board leading up to the issuance of air transport board order, serial number 1865.
Mr. Mcllraiih:: While there would be no objection to the production of this material, the fact is that the transcript of the evidence is some 800 pages in length and getting a copy to table would involve considerable cost. I have made available on loan to the hon. member the copy we have in the department, and in view of these circumstances I wonder if the house would be

agreeable to having the motion dropped, without prejudice to the right of any hon. member to put down a similar motion on another occasion.


Mr. Barnett:: As the minister has indicated he has made available to me the information I want, and as far as I am concerned I would be willing to have the motion withdrawn.
Order discharged and motion withdrawn.



CORRESPONDENCE WITH L. D. TIPTON, BRITISH COLUMBIA

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 31-Mr. Howard:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all correspondence, telegrams and other documents exchanged between the government or any minister, agency or branch thereof, and a Mr. L. D. Tipton of Francois lake, British Columbia, or Burns lake, British Columbia, since January 1, 1963, and dealing with fiscal and monetary matters and of the question of Canadian ownership.
Motion agreed to.
DOMINION-PROVINCIAL CONFERENCE Motion No. 32-Mr. Graffley:
That an humble	address	be presented	to	HisExcellency praying	that he	will cause to	be	laid
before this house a copy of all correspondence since April 22, 1963, between the Prime Minister or other representatives of the federal government and the premiers or other representatives of the several provinces in connection with the convening of a dominion-provincial conference.
Motion agreed to.
DOMINION-PROVINCIAL FISCAL RELATIONS Motion No. 33-Mr. Graffley:
That an humble	address	be presented	to	HisExcellency praying	that he	will cause to	be	laid
before this house a copy of all correspondence between the federal government and the premiers or other representatives of the several provincial governments regarding the need of there being new fiscal arrangements being entered into and, in particular, any correspondence containing a request for an increase in the share of the provinces in company income tax, personal income tax and succession duties.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 34-Mr. Slefanson:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of the minutes of the proceedings and transcript of evidence of the hearings of the board of broadcast governors, dealing with an application of the C.B.C. for an increase in the effective radiated power, a change in channel and a change of antenna site of station CBWT, Winnipeg, Manitoba.
Motion agreed to.
28902-5-102J
Motions for Papers
INDIAN AFFAIRS, NORTHWEST TERRITORIES Motion No. 35-Mr. Rheaume:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy (a) the minutes of the conference of the Indians of the Northwest Territories and Athabasca region held at Fort Smith, N.W.T., on July 29-30, 1957 (b) the report of the commission to investigate the unfulfilled provisions of treaties 8 and 11 as they apply to the Indians of the Mackenzie district, as set up by order in council P.C. 799, dated June 25, 1959, said report having been filed in December 1959 (c) all memoranda, letters, telegrams and other correspondence exchanged between the said commission, the federal government, and the Indian people or their representatives, from December 1, 1959, to the present.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 36-Mr. Mariineau:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of the treasury board minutes respecting the appointments of the four persons named by the Minister of Finance in statements to the house as having had knowledge of the contents of the budget speech before delivery and a copy of the orders in council validating such appointments.
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 37-Mr. Martineau:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of all telegrams, correspondence and other documents exchanged since April 21 between the government of Canada and the government of the province of Quebec on the application of the provisions of the Unemployment Insurance Act to the non-permanent employees of the department of highways of the province of Quebec.
Allan Joseph MacEachen: This motion is acceptable, subject to the reservation that permission is received from the province of Quebec.


Mr. Speaker:: Is the motion agreed to, subject to the reservation expressed by the minister?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.



PROTESTS AGAINST SALES TAX ON BUILDING MATERIALS

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 38-Mr. Stefanson:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all telegrams, correspondence and other documents and any replies thereto received by the Prime Minister, the Minister of Finance or any government officials protesting the new 11 per cent sales tax on building material, machinery and equipment.
He said: I have been requested to allow this to stand and I have agreed to do so.
Motion stands.
[Stage Direction]
Inquiries of the Ministry

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 39-Mr. Coales:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of all correspondence, telegrams and other documents exchanged between the federal government or any agency or branch thereof and any other government, person or organization since April 22, 1963, relating to the trans-Canada highway agreement and the proposal by the federal government to share on a 90-10 basis with the provinces the construction of such highways in the Atlantic provinces.
Jean-Paul Deschatelets: This motion is acceptable subject to permission of the parties concerned and the retention of confidential documents.


Mr. Speaker:: Is the motion agreed to subject to the reservations expressed by the minister?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.



NATIONAL DEFENCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John George Diefenbaker: With a view to clarifying the ambiguity which rose a few minutes ago in connection with the release to which reference was made by the hon. member for Nanaimo-Cowichan-The Islands, may I ask the Minister of National Defence whether it is proposed to establish ammunition dumps at five places on Canadian soil?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Yes, it is, as soon as a bilateral agreement has been signed with the United States to permit the stockpiling of atomic weapons and as soon as the technical agreements have been signed between the services of the two countries.


Colin Cameron: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of National Defence arising out of two statements he made to the house this afternoon, the first being that there had been no release of information regarding nuclear ammunition dumps from this department and the second that the establishment of these dumps was government policy. In the light of these two statements I wonder whether the minister can give us any explanation for the fact that the story containing this information appeared under the byline of one of the most respected members of the press gallery reporting to the Premier Press Agency of Canada?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Mr. Speaker, I find it quite impossible to keep up with everything that the 160,000 servicemen and employees of the

Department of National Defence say, but just in case one of them had indicated the obvious to some member of the press gallery I wanted to set the record straight today. Plans are being prepared, as was directed by the previous government, in the event the decision is ultimately made, and we hope that a decision will be reached soon.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, that is a gratuitous statement.


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Colin Cameron: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.


John George Diefenbaker: I rise on a point of order.


Colin Cameron: I have a supplementary question for the Minister of National Defence.


Mr. Speaker:: Is it a question of order?


John George Diefenbaker: Yes. You have mentioned that certain questions are out of order, Mr. Speaker. Do you not think that the answer just given was in the same category?


Some hon. Members:: Order.


John George Diefenbaker: I should like a ruling on that, Mr. Speaker, because you have been saying that questions are not in order. The statement added by the minister had no place in his answer and he simply wanted to put something before the house that was improper. I suggest that the rules should also apply to him.


Colin Cameron: I have a supplementary question Mr. Speaker. If, as the minister tells us, he has no idea how this very factual story got out of his department, is he taking any steps to check leaks from his department?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Yes, I will be making some inquiries after I go back.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Ghost writers.


Colin Cameron: A further supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Can the minister tell us whether the report broadcast on the radio last night that a serving officer of the Royal Canadian Air Force had made a statement in connection with this matter is correct and, if so, has he taken steps to discipline this officer for taking such action?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Mr. Speaker, I did not hear the report.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. If a decision has been taken by the minister's

department to establish these nuclear ammunition dumps, may I ask the minister why that decision was not communicated to the house before?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Mr. Speaker, in the language in which the hon. gentleman puts this question may I say that a decision has not been taken to establish dumps until certain other things are done. I mentioned in the house this afternoon what those things were, the satisfactory conclusion of an agreement with the United States with regard to the general terms under which special ammunition can be stored and then technical agreements to work out the other details. Planning is going ahead so that these things can be expedited in a reasonable length of time if the agreements referred to can be signed in the meantime.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Will United States military personnel be attached to these bases?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Yes, Mr. Speaker.


Thomas Speakman Barnett: I have a further question which I should like to address to the Minister of Finance. Now that his colleague the Minister of National Defence has indicated that the report about nuclear arms dumps is correct in substance, even though it was unauthorized, can the Minister of Finance tell us whether the estimates which he tabled included an amount of $7 million for the construction of nuclear weapons dumps as indicated in this report?


Mr. Gordon:: Well, Mr. Speaker, I will have to take the question as notice.



D.E.W. LINE  DISMISSAL OF CANADIAN EM- PLOYEES BY U.S. COMPANY

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. David Orlikow (Winnipeg North):: should like to direct a question to the Associate Minister of National Defence. Has the distant early warning line been fully staffed until now, and if so how is it possible for the company operating the line to have substantially reduced staff since the labour dispute took place?


Hon. Lucien Cardin (Associate Minister of National Defence):: I want to thank the hon. member for having given me notice of his intention to ask this question. However, I received the notice only after I entered the chamber. It has been impossible for me to confirm whether it is a fact that a substantial reduction in personnel on the D.E.W. line has been caused by the recent labour dispute. I shall have to take the question as notice.
Inquiries of the Ministry (Translation):



DOMINION-PROVINCIAL RELATIONS QUEBEC-REQUEST FOR DELAY IN CONVENING CONFERENCE

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Prime Minister a question.
Considering the national urgency of the matter, when will the Prime Minister answer the letter of Mr. Lesage, in which he asks that the study of the proposed federal aid to the municipalities be delayed until after the interprovincial conference which will be held in Halifax? We would like to have some particulars on this point at the earliest possible opportunity.
(Text):


Lester Bowles Pearson: I will answer that question as soon as possible, Mr. Speaker.
(Translation):



WITHDRAWAL FROM JOINT PROGRAMS


Paul Raymond Martineau: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Prime Minister. Can the Prime Minister tell us if the government has received from Mr. Rene Levesque, minister of natural resources in Quebec, a communication concerning the statement he made yesterday in the legislature of the province of Quebec, to the effect that Quebec would withdraw from the joint programs related to studies about electric power.
(Text):


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, to my knowledge I had received no communication up to the time of the convening of the session, but I will look into it when I get back to my office.



TRANSPORT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Reg Cantelon (Kindersley):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Transport, and to preface my remarks by saying that I appreciate the courtesy with which he has handled this matter with respect to myself outside the house. First I should like to inquire if the Minister of Transport is prepared to make a statement setting out any conclusions reached at the two meetings- which he held yesterday,

Inquiries of the Ministry the first with Hon. Woodrow Lloyd, premier of Saskatchewan, relative to rail line abandonments in that province, and the second with representatives of the railway unions in relation to the so-called run-throughs proposed by the C.N.R.?


George James McIlraith: Mr. Speaker, yesterday I had two interviews dealing with railway matters. The first was with Premier Lloyd of Saskatchewan with a supporting delegation, to discuss the MacPherson commission report and any prospective legislation based thereon. In that interview the premier put forward the point of view of his province with relation to the royal commission report and with relation to various points which might arise in prospective legislation. I do not know that there is a statement which can be made. No conclusions were reached; it was not that kind of conference. It was a matter of discussing the royal commission report and possible subject matter for legislative action arising from it. It was a rather thorough type of discussion and, at least from my point of view, a very satisfactory one, and I would hope the premier and the delegation with him feel the same way about it.
The other interview was with the representatives of the railway unions concerning the same general subject matter. It was not limited to the question of run-throughs; it dealt with a wider area. It was a matter of the representatives of the unions putting forward their proposals for legislative action on the MacPherson commission report and other related matters affecting the railways and the unions. Again no conclusions were arrived at.
I might say that the interviews were not only with myself on behalf of the government but also other ministers representing transport in committee of the cabinet.


Mr. J. H. Horner (Acadia):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a supplementary question pertaining to the divisional point run-throughs. Will the minister take steps to stop the C.N.R. making these run-throughs until wage negotiations over new wage contracts come up in the spring of 1964?


George James McIlraith: No, Mr. Speaker, I would not be willing to give that kind of undertaking. I do not think that kind of undertaking meets the problem of those areas, in view of the reorganization of the railway service.



BRITISH COLUMBIA


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Stuart A. Fleming (Okanagan-Revel-stoke):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to ask the Minister of Northern Affairs and National

Resources a question, but in his absence perhaps the acting minister could convey it to him. My question arises from the question I asked the minister yesterday and the reply he gave me at that time. I asked whether he had received any representations on the Okanagan-Shuswap canal project, and the minister told me yesterday he had received no such representation, either official or unofficial, and in particular no representations from a Mr. Henry Tremblay. I have before me a newspaper report from Vernon dated June 20, in which it is indicated that Mr. Tremblay advised the newspaper that he had met with the minister during a recent visit to Ottawa and presented details of the canal project which would link Shus-wap and the Okanagan-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I must interrupt the hon. member. I have been waiting for his question, and I wonder whether he would put it.


Stuart A. Fleming: The
question is this. The minister answered my question yesterday, and now we have a completely contradictory report-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Stuart A. Fleming: I do not think you will like the question, but I will get on with it. I should like the minister to clarify this matter which is of tremendous importance to people in north Okanagan who would like to know what is going on.



AGRICULTURE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Agriculture arising out of the statement he made to the house yesterday. Will the government consider raising the maximum limit of $625,000 to $1 million for construction of a veterinary college in western Canada, inasmuch as-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Mr. Speaker:: I regret to interrupt the hon. member, but this is a question for the order paper.


Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson: I should like to rephrase my question, Mr. Speaker, and I hope it will be acceptable to you. It is addressed to the Minister of Agriculture. Will the government consider paying 25 per cent of the cost of a veterinary college rather than the limited amount set out in his statement yesterday?


Hon. Harry W. Hays (Minister of Agriculture):: The decision of the government is to

provide assistance in the amount announced in the house on June 25.



EGGS AND HOGS-CONTINUATION OF DEFICIENCY PAYMENTS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Reynold Rapp (Humboldt-Melforl-Tisdale):: Mr. Speaker, a few days ago I directed a question to the Minister of Agriculture dealing with the method of making deficiency payments on eggs and hogs. At that time he said he would give a report later. Would he be in a position to give this information now.


Harry William Hays: Mr. Speaker, in reply to the hon. member, consideration has now been given to this matter. It is the intention of the agricultural stabilization board to continue to base the deficiency payment programs for eggs and hogs on a national annual weighted average price. [Later:]


Mr. E. Nasserden (Rosthern):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question, or probably a supplementary question for the Minister of Agriculture. Will he indicate whether the officials of the stabilization board will be invited to come before the standing committee on agriculture before the summer recess?


Harry William Hays: Mr. Speaker, I cannot answer that question at the moment, but I will take it as notice.



HEALTH AND WELFARE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. W. Herridge (Kootenay West):: Mr. Speaker, as one abstainer to another I wish to address a question to the Minister of National Health and Welfare, or to her parliamentary secretary. I ask the question because many people are curious as to the minister's intentions. Does the minister intend to introduce any further legislation prior to the proposed recess of parliament in the latter part of July?


Mr. Stanley Haidasz (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of National Health and Welfare):: Mr. Speaker, may I take this question as notice.
(Translation):



WORLD FAIR


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Georges-J. Valade: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Prime Minister a question, of which I sent him notice?
Could the Prime Minister tell the house whether the call which was made yesterday at his office by the mayor of Montreal and the
Inquiries of the Ministry chairman of the executive committee was in connection with the site or with some structural change in the organization of the World Fair Corporation?
(Text):


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, I had the pleasure of a talk with the mayor and chairman yesterday. We talked about matters generally connected with the fair, especially the commitments and responsibilities of the federal government in regard thereto.
(Translation):


Georges-J. Valade: May I ask a supplementary question, Mr. Speaker? Could the Prime Minister tell us whether his government considers replacing Mr. Paul Bienvenu as chairman of that corporation, or perhaps lessen his authority by appointing a general manager who would have full authority with regard to the corporation?
(Text):


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, this particular officer of the commission was appointed by the previous government in agreement with the provincial government of Quebec and the municipality of Montreal, and the question of his position did not come up.



LABOUR RELATIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. R. W. Priftie (Burnaby-Richmond):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Labour. In view of the impending strike which may tie up all Pacific coast ports, can the minister inform the house of the efforts being made by his department to settle the dispute between the longshoremen and the shipping federation of British Columbia?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: Mr. Speaker, my information is that the parties have scheduled a meeting for Friday, and it has not been reported to me that any strike action is contemplated before that meeting. In the meantime, the resident west coast industrial relations officers of the department are in constant touch with the situation and are ready to offer any assistance that might be useful in the circumstances. (Translation):



ARTS, LETTERS AND SCIENCE REQUEST FOR ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS ON ORDER PAPER

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
['Yes, Mr. Speaker.\n(Translation):']
Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Secretary of State a question?

Inquiries of the Ministry Can the minister tell us whether, while questions concerning the inquiry on bilingualism are standing, the ministers concerned will see to it that they are answered?
(Text):


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, the most earnest consideration is being given by the government to the best way of assembling this information. (Translation):



[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Gérard Chapdelaine: Mr. Speaker, I should like to put a question to the Prime Minister. Certain federal departments in my riding have been informed that Monday next, July 1, is Dominion day, while others were advised that it is confederation day.
On the other hand, the officers of an American company operating in my riding have asked me what is the holiday to be granted to their employees, whether it is Dominion day or confederation day.
(Text):


Mr. Speaker:: I am sorry but I have to suggest that this is a question for the order paper.

(Translation):


Gérard Chapdelaine: Mr. Speaker, I feel that the question I asked a while ago is of such urgency that it cannot wait until orders of the day, because certain employers might play on words if the collective agreement they have with their employees mentions "Dominion day" instead of "confederation day", and they might refuse a holiday next Monday.
Could the Prime Minister tell me whether that holiday should be called "confederation day" or "Dominion day"?
(Text):


Lester Bowles Pearson: Monday will be Canada's national day, Mr. Speaker.

(Translation):


PUBLIC SERVICE
[Stage Direction]
COMPETITION NO. 63-M-947 On the orders of the day:
Gérard Laprise: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Secretary of State. A few days ago we received from the civil service commission a poster from Montreal dated June 17, 1963, in connection with position 63-M-947 at Chibougamau, in my riding. However, the 

competition is open only to residents of Chibougamau and the lake St. John district. Why are my constituents not eligible?
(Text):


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I will draw the question to the attention of the civil service commission.


SHIPPING
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Lloyd R. Crouse (Queens-Lunenburg):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question and I am not sure whether it should be directed to the Minister of Fisheries or the Minister of Transport, but I hope the minister responsible will take this matter under consideration. The decision of Saguenay Shipping to suspend its services to Haiti is being keenly felt by the salt fish trade in Nova Scotia. In view of the fact that these ships are the only direct and regular link between Halifax and Haiti, and Haiti is a valuable salt fish market, will the minister investigate this problem in the hope that alternative delivery methods may be provided?


Hédard-J. Robichaud: Mr. Speaker, I wish to advise the hon. member that this matter will be given serious consideration by my department and the Department of Transport.


ST. LAWRENCE RIVER  INQUIRY AS TO WINTER NAVIGATION
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Thomas M. Bell (Saint John-Alberl):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Transport with respect to two items in today's Montreal Gazette about winter navigation on the St. Lawrence, one a report concerning a congressional committee in the United States and the other a protest from the marine workers of America. Will the minister take these two matters under advisement and give us the attitude of the new government on this general subject which is so important to the maritimes?


George James McIlraith: Yes, Mr. Speaker.
(Translation):



DEFENCE PRODUCTION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a

question to the Minister of Defence Production. In view of the serious situation at Canadair, could the minister comply with the wishes of the mayor of Ville St. Laurent and tell us if that company will soon be getting important contracts?
(Text):


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: Mr. Speaker, I will have to take that question as notice.



FINANCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Thomas Speakman Barnett: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Finance. When the minister tabled the estimates earlier in the session he stated that the present government was accepting the estimates as prepared by the previous administration. I should like to ask him whether this statement applied to the estimates of the Department of National Defence in every particular.


Walter Lockhart Gordon: Mr. Speaker, I have nothing further to add to what I said on that occasion.



INQUIRIES RESPECTING TAXATION PROPOSALS IN BUDGET

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Jack McIntosh (Swift Current-Maple Creek):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Finance. In view of the withdrawal of the 30 per cent tax on securities sales to foreign investors and the contemplated withdrawal of other revenue taxes, would the minister now revise the deficit figure of $565 million forecast in the budget to a more realistic one, say in the neighbourhood of possibly $1 billion?


Walter Lockhart Gordon: Mr. Speaker, it seems to me that is a rather hypothetical question.


Mr. A. D. Hales (Wellington South):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Finance. Will the minister consider withdrawing the 11 per cent discriminatory sales tax on typesetting, plates, art work, etc. used by printers, thereby eliminating the double taxation-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Mr. Speaker:: I am sorry but this question is not in order.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Finance, and I apologize for not giving him notice. It 28902-5-103
Inquiries of the Ministry has just come to my mind. Has the minister received any representations from the government of British Columbia for exemption from sales tax on purchases in connection with the construction of the Peace river dam?


Walter Lockhart Gordon: No, Mr. Speaker.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I should like to ask the Prime Minister a question arising out of the answer he gave to question No. 704. If I understood correctly, the Prime Minister has come to a decision not to have an investigation of any kind. I wanted to take up with him the answer he gave to the hon. member for Burnaby-Coquitlam on June 19, when the hon. member asked him whether the Prime Minister was prepared to have a study made of the trading pattern and the Prime Minister replied that in so far as this is a matter of governmental and ministerial responsibility, he would be very glad to initiate some inquiry. I wanted to ask the Prime Minister whether he saw any distinction between the request to which he acceded when it came from the hon. member for Burnaby-Coquitlam, and the one I put to him. If so, what is the distinction, and what does he plan to do about the question put by the hon. member for Burnaby-Coquitlam?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Yes, the distinction is obvious.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: I have a supplementary question to the one asked by my deskmate, the hon. member for Port Arthur. I should like to know from the Prime Minister, since he undertook to have an investigation made into the trading patterns immediately preceding and following the budget to see if there was any evidence there that would warrant a further investigation, if such an investigation has been made, and if so by whom and what were the results of this investigation?


Lester Bowles Pearson: That request went to the presidents of the exchanges, and I have not had a reply yet. They are making the investigation.



FISHERIES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Barry Mather (New Westminster):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question I should like to direct to the Minister of Fisheries, notice of which I have given. Can the minister say anything today respecting the proposed federal-provincial conference on the welfare of the fishing industry? Can he indicate the time or place of such meeting?

Inquiries of the Ministry


Hédard-J. Robichaud: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to inform the hon. member and the house that the Department of Fisheries is considering the convening of a federal-provincial conference on the welfare of the commercial fishing industry. I may add that the ministers responsible for the administration of the fisheries in each of the provinces have been notified accordingly, and a conference will be held either in the late fall or early in the new year.


Mr. G. L. Chatierlon (Esquimau-Saanich):: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Will representatives of the trade also be invited to attend the conference?


Hédard-J. Robichaud: No report has reached me as yet.



UNITED NATIONS

[Stage Direction]
Canada's contribution toward cost of

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. W. B. Nesbill (Oxford):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to address a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs. In view of the reported temporary settlement of the United Nations financial crisis I was wondering whether the minister could tell us the extent of Canada's participation in this eminently successful project, as it is reported to be; and is Canada's contribution of $300,000 of a temporary nature, a first payment toward this contribution or is it one of a series of payments?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. This question should be put on the order paper.



WATER RESOURCES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Frank Howard (Skeena):: Yesterday I directed a question to the Minister of Fisheries relating to an article in the Trail Times of June 18 reporting a speech made by Mr. Roy Perrault, leader of the Liberal party in British Columbia, about diverting the waters of the Columbia into the Fraser-Thompson river system. The minister answered-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member must surely realize that this is a short afternoon. It is now 4.25. I do not want to cut off questions; that is not my right or duty, but hon. members must realize we have not much time left.


Frank Howard: This is a matter of great urgency to the salmon industry of British Columbia, and surely to heavens after a long-


An hon. Member:: Put your question.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. If I remember correctly this question or similar questions have been raised for the last four days in this house.


Frank Howard: I beg to differ with you, Mr. Speaker. To my knowledge, and according to the Hansard record, the only time the question was raised was yesterday.


Mr. Speaker:: Put the question.


Frank Howard: Yes, I was going to do so. I should like to ask the Minister of Fisheries if he has yet had a chance to peruse the item and has he any comment to make about it?


Hédard-J. Robichaud: No decision has yet been reached to that effect.


Frank Howard: I drew it to the attention of the minister yesterday.


Hédard-J. Robichaud: In reply to the hon. member, I told him yesterday that I had not seen the article, and I have not seen it yet.


Frank Howard: Well, there is a difference there.



PENSIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Stanley Knowles (Winnipeg North
Centre): Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Prime Minister. Does the invitation of the federal government to the provinces to join in discussions on pension matters contained in a letter to the provinces which the Prime Minister tabled and had placed on Hansard yesterday, imply that the introduction of legislation regarding a Canada pension plan is to be delayed until after these discussions have taken place?
Lester Bowles Pearson: No, Mr. Speaker, that is not an implication that need be drawn from the letter.


Stanley Howard Knowles: May I ask a supplementary question. Can we take it that it is the government's intention to go ahead with the legislation as early as possible?


Lester Bowles Pearson: If we do not make more progress than we have made this afternoon, Mr. Speaker, we will never get to it.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I do not know why hon. members opposite applaud these evasive answers.



THE BUDGET


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Tuesday, June 25, consideration of the motion of Hon. Walter L. Gordon (Minister of Finance) that Mr. Speaker do now leave the chair for the house to go into committee of ways and means.
(Translation):
Mr. Guy Marcoux (Quebec-Montmorency):: 
Mr. R. N. Thompson (Red Deer):: Mr. Speaker, in the very few minutes of this debate that are left it is hardly possible to give very much of the material I had intended to bring to the attention of the house. Suffice it to say, however, in view of the shortness of time, that this budget has been the biggest disappointment of any budget introduced in recent years-


John George Diefenbaker: Why did you not vote for the amendment?


Robert Norman Thompson: -in that it was no better than any the former government brought in, but that the people of Canada had expected something better. I am convinced that neither of the old parties, with the approach they take to solve Canada's economic problems, has the answers to Canada's economic needs. Otherwise we would not be continually moving in the realm of deficit financing, with higher and higher tax loads.
My attention was drawn the other day to an editorial in the Penticton Herald of June 11 which says:
Our frequent reference to the dangers of long continued federal deficit financing is this one fact-every deficit position makes it cumulatively more difficult to get a balance the next time.
The servicing of the debt, in itself, is an ever tightening strangulation-
Canadians, let's face it, are not willing to make the sacrifices necessary, nor do most legislators know what's happening. Either they don't care, or they're too politically timid to risk their election necks.
Something should be done, Mr. Speaker, if we are to have any hope at all of continuing in the way that a nation such as Canada should. This year the cost of servicing our debt is $93 million more than it was last year, and it will be more next year because inevitably the national debt goes higher and higher.

The Budget-Mr. Thompson
I realize the Minister of Finance has endeavoured to bring the deficit down for the coming year, but the sad part of it is that the policies which he followed and the steps which he took have brought about the very reverse of the condition he intended to bring about, and which should be brought about.
The 11 per cent tax on building materials is a very unfortunate tax addition. I would appeal to the minister, in view of the tremendous objection from right across Canada, to remove this tax from building materials, and do it as soon as possible. Otherwise we will find that not only will unemployment increase but the whole expansion of our economy will grind to a halt, and bring about a situation which certainly will not be in the best interests of the country.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Would the hon. member permit a question?


Robert Norman Thompson: There is no time for that now.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Why did you not vote for the amendment?


Robert Norman Thompson: If the government is not able to withdraw this tax completely, then I would appeal to it to postpone the effective date of the tax until January 1, 1964. If the government did this it would have a very salutary effect on the building trade across the country, and would spur people engaged in the construction industry to much greater activity, which in turn would help the economy. This tax will not only work hardship on home construction but also on many other aspects of the industry. In fact no event in parliament has ever brought so much correspondence across my desk, and I am sure this is true of the Minister of Finance and other hon. members as well. Therefore I appeal to the minister to take some action to correct the situation. Either withdraw the tax completely or else postpone its effective date.
A second matter which I believe to be urgently essential is that new steps must be taken to reach the basic needs of the country so far as its economy is concerned. We are no longer living in an era when there is a problem of production. To all intents and purposes that problem has been solved. Our problem now is one of distribution, and it is a question of how we can increase more effective demand in order to increase our consumption both at home and with respect to our export markets. What Canada needs is a different approach to its economic policies based on the premise that our basic problem is one of distribution and consumption rather than of production. The tax load must be eased, particularly for those in the lower

income brackets; the 11 per cent tax on building materials is going to strike hardest at this level. Furthermore there must be an increase in the effective demand of our people. This can only be accomplished by more purchasing dollars being in their hands in order to consume the production of which we are capable. The tax base must be broadened by the expansion of the economy in such a way that greater taxes are not imposed upon any particular group, but that there is a greater increase in earnings and in the value of our over-all economy so that the load will be lighter for all concerned.
One of the greatest problems that faces our economy today is in the realm of social capital. It has been estimated by economists and by those who are very close to the overall needs of our nation that we require at least $1 billion a year for the next ten years in the realm of social capital. One of the most effective ways of speeding up the expansion of our economy and placing more purchasing power in the hands of wage earners and consumers at large would be to put vast amounts of social capital into the economy to take care of our public needs in the realm of schools, roads, hospitals, bridges, public buildings and this type of project. However, this need not be done through deficit financing if we face the fact that we ought to be using the Bank of Canada to supply this social capital. If this were done the very crux of the problem would be dealt with, and I am convinced we would see the economy moving forward on the basis upon which it should and must move forward if we are going to solve this problem of meeting the financial needs of our governments and at the same time give the incentives for our industry and commerce to move forward.


Some hon. Members:: Time.


Mr. Grafftey:: Mr. Speaker, would the hon. member permit a question?


Robert Norman Thompson: No, there is no time for a question.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Explain your last vote.


John George Diefenbaker: You voted the other way.


William Heward Grafftey: In view of the speech-


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. The hon. member should address the Chair. Has the hon. member for Red Deer (Mr. Thompson) finished? He has a few seconds left.


Robert Norman Thompson: I have not finished, Mr. Speaker, but I see it is a quarter to five.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Explain your vote in a few seconds.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. It being 4.45 o'clock p.m. it is my duty, pursuant to section 6 of standing order 58, to interrupt these proceedings and forthwith put the question on the main motion. Accordingly, the question is as follows. Mr. Gordon, seconded by Mr. Pickersgill, moves:
That Mr. Speaker do now leave the chair for the house to resolve itself into committee of ways and means.
Is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the said motion?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Some hon. Members:: No.


Mr. Speaker:: All those in favour of the said motion will please say yea.
Mcllraith
McNulty
McWilliam
Martin (Essex East)
Matheson
Matte
Mitchell
Moreau
Morison
Mullally
Munro
Nicholson
O'Keefe
Olson
Otto
Ouellet
Pearson
Pennell
Pickersgill
Pilon
Plourde
Division
Regan
Rideout
Robichaud
Rochon
Rock
Rouleau
Ryan
Sharp
Stewart
Tardif
Teillet
Temple
Thompson
Tremblay
Tucker
Wahn
Walker
Watson (Chateauguay-Huntingdon-Laprairie) Whelan-119.


Some hon. Members:: Yea.


Mr. Speaker:: All those opposed will please say nay.


Some hon. Members:: Nay.


Mr. Speaker:: In my opinion the yeas have it. And more than five members having risen: Mr. Speaker: Call in the members.


Rémi Paul: Mr. Speaker, before the result of the vote is known, I should like to call your attention to paragraph 2 of standing order 12, which provides that when a question is put-
(Text):


Mr. Speaker:: Order. There is no discussion
at this point.

Division
And the result of the vote having been announced: Yeas, 119; nays, 74.


Mr. Speaker:: I declare the motion carried. (Translation):


Rémi Paul: Mr. Speaker, I should like to call your attention to paragraph 2 of standing order 12, to the effect that no member can take his seat when a motion is being put. And I wish to point out that the hon. member for Chateauguay-Huntingdon-La-prairie (Mr. Watson) came in after the motion was put.
(Text):


Mr. Speaker:: May I ask the hon. member for Chateauguay-Huntingdon-Laprairie (Mr. Watson) whether he was inside the chamber when the question was put? Will he tell the house whether he was in the chamber at the time the question was put?


Mr. Watson (Chaieauguay-Huniingdon-Laprairie):: Mr. Speaker, if I understand your question correctly, it was-


Mr. Speaker:: Would the hon. member say yes or no and then we can get on with the business?


Lawrence E. Watson: As far as I am concerned, yes.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member has said yes and I am obliged under the rules to take his statement.


Bryce Stuart Mackasey: Mr. Speaker, I was paired with the hon. member for Bow River (Mr. Woolliams). Had I not been paired I would have voted for the motion.
(Translation):


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Speaker, I was paired with the hon. member for lle-de-la-Madeleine (Mr. Sauve). Had I not been paired I would have voted against the motion.
(Text):


James Elisha Brown: 1 was paired with the hon. member for Simcoe East (Mr. Rynard). Had I voted I would have voted for the motion.


John Napier Turner: Mr. Speaker, I was paired with	the	hon. member	for	Yukon	(Mr. Nielsen). Had I voted I would have voted in favour of the motion.


Mr. McBain:: Mr. Speaker, I was paired with	the	hon. member	for	Halton	(Mr. Harley). Had I voted I would have voted in the negative.


Mr. McMillan:: Mr. Speaker, I was paired with the hon. member for Macleod (Mr. Kindt). I would have voted in the affirmative.


Mr. More:: Mr. Speaker, I was paired with the hon. member for Norfolk (Mr. Roxburgh). Had I voted I would have voted against the motion.


Mr. Alkenbrack:: Mr. Speaker, I was paired with the hon. member for Durham (Mr. Honey). Had I voted I would have voted in the negative.
(Translation):


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. The hon. member for St. Antoine-Westmount (Mr. Drury) mentioned that he would have voted against the motion. I hope that this will be reported in Hansard.


Yvon Dupuis: That is not what he said. (Text):


Paul Raymond Martineau: Mr. Speaker, on a point of
order-*


Mr. Speaker:: There is no point of order possible. The matter has been disposed of by a decision of the house.


Paul Raymond Martineau: I was paired with the
hon. member for St. James (Mr. Rin-fret). I understand he is away, but he told me he would be here and that I would not have to be paired. The whip, the hon. member for Hull (Mr. Caron), told me I should have been paired, and I want to make that explanation.



WAYS AND MEANS

[Stage Direction]
The house in committee of ways and means, Mr. Lamoureux in the chair.
Progress reported.
["It being six o'clock I must advise the house that the hour for private members' business has now expired."]
Mr. Speaker:: It being five o'clock p.m. the house will now proceed to the consideration of private members' business as listed on today's order paper, namely, notices of motions, public bills.



Hon. W. G. Dinsdale (Brandon-Souris) moved:: That, in the opinion of this house, the government, in consultation with the recently formed federal-provincial parks conference, should give immediate consideration to establishing a recreational parks program to:
1.	extend the picnic sites and camp ground program;
2.	complement the national parks system;
3.	meet the growing recreational needs of a changing society;
4.	provide adequate services and facilities for Canada's booming tourist industry.
He said: Mr. Speaker, it is unfortunate that the time to discuss this important motion is going to be limited by circumstances. However, I have been assured already by many members on both sides of the house that there is considerable support for this motion and in view of that fact I shall keep

my remarks as brief as I can in order to allow as many members as possible to take part in the debate during the period of time available.
There has been growing concern in recent years arising from the failure to establish policies that provide for the wise management and the multiple use of our renewable resources. It was because of this growing concern that the former prime minister, now Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Diefenbaker), in the year 1958 in an important policy speech called for the setting up of a national committee or conference on conservation that would deal with the urgent and critical problem of the wise management of our great resource heritage. As a result we had in the city of Montreal in the fall of 1961 that historic conference which became known as the resources for tomorrow conference. Out of that conference came recommendations that will have a significant impact on the utilization and development of our resources for many years to come.
One of the recommendations that came from that conference had to do with the urgent necessity of providing the park facilities required to meet the growing recreational needs of an affluent society. This resolution is merely underlining a policy that has been endorsed by a broad cross-section of Canadians, some 700 in number, who met in that conference; a policy that has been also endorsed by the first federal-provincial conference on park development that took place in Ottawa last October; and a policy that has been widely supported by such voluntary groups as the Audubon society and others interested in the preservation of our renewable resources.
As the resolution indicates, we have a parks program in operation at the moment. We have the national parks program which has operated in Canada since the year 1885. I think the fact that we go back to the year 1885 to mark the establishment of the program is eloquent testimony to the vision and the wisdom of the members of the government of that day who, of course, happened to be members of a Conservative administration. I say this, not with any partisan emphasis at all but only to underline that down through the years since confederation the Conservative party has always emphasized the need for wise management and development of our renewable resources.
The national parks system is still the backbone of our present parks program. It is dedicated in principle, according to the National Parks Act, to the preservation and conservation of our wildlife and our scenic beauty. There has been a slow development of the system over the years. At the present
26, 1963	1615
Request for Parks Recreational Program time there are only 18 such parks and they constitute less than 1 per cent of our total land area. So I think it will be readily seen by all members that we have not been overabundantly supplied in the area of national park development with park facilities of this kind.
I should also like to refer to the excellent programs that have been developed by various provincial governments which are supplementing the functions of the national parks system. However, we have reached a critical stage in our development where urgent action is required to supplement and to complement the national parks program. This is why I have used the words in the resolution that immediate consideration should be given to establishing a recreational parks program because, as I hope to demonstrate in my remarks, the time is long past due when action is required in this area.
I do not have to go into details because I am sure all hon. members have become aware of this difficulty as a result of the informational and educational impact of the resources for tomorrow conference and other recent statements that have been made in this field of activity. We have passed through a social revolution in which mobility has been intensified largely by the construction of modern paved highways and the ubiquitous presence of the automobile which has put everybody on wheels in our affluent society. There are some 66 million vehicles registered in the United States, I understand, and a proportionate number registered in Canada, which has meant that the population has become mobile in a way never before seen in history.
Combined with the factor of mobility is the availability of leisure time. With improved working conditions leisure time, which was once a rare commodity restricted to the well to do in the upper levels of society, has now become available to all. These are the two basic ingredients of the social revolution that have created an almost insatiable demand for expanded recreational facilities; and this is combined with an increase in the tourist population in recent years which can only be described as a population explosion in tourism.
The former administration moved quickly, as I have already indicated, to deal with this problem that had been long neglected.
In the national parks branch, for example, a planning section was established in 1958. There was a recommendation by the planning section that each of the national parks should be carefully surveyed and a master plan developed for each of the parks. The first such plan was announced to the members of the House of Commons last fall when the
1616	HOUSE OF
Request for Parks Recreational Program Overlander report, which dealt with growth problems in our most populous national park, Banff national park, was tabled.
Then, too, last January in the city of Calgary, it was my privilege to announce a new zoning policy for our national parks system which would preserve the fundamental principle of national parks, namely, the conservation of wild life and areas of natural beauty, at the same time providing maximum recreational facilities. In our national park there is to be one third of the park area dedicated to the preservation of wilderness. Other portions of the park will be developed into what might best be called visitors' service centres. These would be carefully planned on the basis of the community plan to which I have already referred, so as to provide minimum impairment of wilderness areas. Then, there would be the general' usage areas. Those are the three major steps that have been taken in the national parks program that I think will have an important influence on the future development of these parks.
Outside the parks branch itself, the voluntary organizations have become increasingly interested in this problem. The nucleus of a national parks association is one of the developments that came out of the resources for tomorrow conference. This was established in Toronto last April, and I heartily congratulate those citizens who have come together in order to deal with the problem of meeting the need for recreational services, resulting in increasing demand for recreational park programs.
Another major development was the federal-provincial' parks conference held last October. At that conference a proposal was made to the provincial representatives that the federal government of that day would be willing to participate in such a program as is outlined in this resolution. The impression I gained from participating in the conference was that all representatives were positively oriented towards the idea.
We have been endeavouring also, of course, to create new national parks. There is a fundamental problem in this regard in that the resources belong to the provinces. Before the federal authority can establish a national park it must have land owned by the provinces made available free of encumbrances. We had made good progress towards getting agreement with the province of Nova Scotia for the establishment of an additional national park there. We were negotiating with the northern territories with a view to establishing suitable park areas there. Of course, many hon. members will be aware that there has


been some consideration of an additional park in the province of British Columbia in the Garibaldi mountain area.
In addition to this, however, and I think this is fundamental to the resolution we have before us, the former government in its planning for the future of resource areas deliberately set out a program for expanding the establishment of historic sites and monuments. Here is an area in Canadian development that has been sadly neglected. I must confess one of the reasons such a program was enunciated and launched was the great interest exhibited by members from all sides of the house as well as from the public in general. There is now well under way in Canada a major program of historic site and park development. This whole program was geared to fit into our centennial celebration. By that year major historic and park restoration will be completed in every part of Canada.
One of the most important of these, is Louisburg, a multi-million dollar restoration program and which is going to have a multiple use in that it will be a major attraction for a growing tourist industry. It will provide recreational activities as well. The Plains of Abraham and the Citadel in Quebec comprise one of our oldest historic sites and is well developed. In Ontario, we have several areas that are under development. The province of Manitoba is co-operating in the restoration of the Fort Garry site. In Saskatchewan, it is Batoche. In Alberta, there are several areas and in B.C. likewise. The former administration, aware of the historic significance of activities in the north, moved to preserve historic Dawson City as a historic site. This is a matter that has come under criticism from hon. members opposite.
There is no reason why any part of Canada should be discriminated against in a program of this kind. There has been a good deal of bias against the development of northern Canada, I know, on the part of the Liberal party ever since the Conservative government announced a program for the vigorous development of this area. I think it must be recognized that Canadian development has always been outward and upward into the great Canadian northwest. One of the greatest epochs in Canadian development was the gold rush into the Yukon, the trail of '98 as it became popularly known and recognized around the world, largely through the writings of Robert Service. This is one aspect of Canadian history that is known in every part of the world, even in the more remote parts. In the days to come, it is going to be one of the major attractions of our booming tourist industry which will bring millions of dollars to the Canadian economy, as an indirect result.

However, the major purpose is to preserve our historic sites and monuments for posterity and at the same time take into consideration the multiple use concept, because these sites have recreational value as well. I can also mention the winter works program which has been used by municipalities to provide for growing recreational needs, particularly in the urban centres. There have been hundreds of recreational park areas established because of the excellent winter works program of the former administration.
ARDA needs no emphasis or interpretation on my part. ARDA, which is now getting underway in every province of Canada, provides as one of its major measures alternative land use. I know in my own province- the province with which I am most familiar -the provincial government is moving forward in several areas to use the provisions of the Agricultural Rehabilitation and Development Act in order to meet the growing demands for recreational parks. This is all fine, but on top of it the demand is so urgent and such a rapidly growing one that I am convinced we, as the parliament of Canada, must move immediately to launch, in cooperation with the provinces-and as I have indicated the matter has already been presented to the first meeting of the federal-provincial conference-to establish a program specifically designed to create recreational park areas in order to deal with some of the problems I have outlined.
Briefly this is the parks and recreational aspects of the matter, and perhaps I should add a word about the economic benefits that would derive from such a program. I know this is always a matter in consideration when governments are moving towards expenditure in some particular area of Canadian life. I believe that if we were to move enthusiastically and expeditiously into this program, any expenditure would be more than paid for by the booming tourist industry that has been talked about so much in recent months. Tourism used to be regarded as of little economic significance-


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Batten):: Order. I must apologize for interrupting the hon. member, but the time allotted to him has expired.


John Napier Turner: Mr. Speaker, I am sure it has always been a pleasure for those who followed him previously, as it is for me this evening, to follow the hon. member for Brandon-Souris (Mr. Dinsdale) who was the former minister of the department which I represent as parliamentary secretary. I may say I am very grateful to him for having
Request for Parks Recreational Program introduced the topic of the large outdoors, especially after the last six days, and I am sure each member of the house is grateful to him for bringing a little fresh air into the chamber. It is a refreshing change. But, in any event I was somewhat surprised to find him taking a partisan approach to the problem of recreation, which I think we would all endorse. With respect I would like to remind him that the Conservative party has no monopoly on the north, nor has it a monopoly on the park lands of Canada, except perhaps a blurred vision here and there.
Since this is the first time I have had an opportunity to speak this session may I, sir, through you transfer to His Honour the Speaker my loyalty and congratulations. He is a man of many talents and, as you know, a man with countless friends. He has all the requisite qualities for the office he now holds. He has a sense of fairness, a judicial and even temperament, and a gift of humour. I consider myself fortunate to have had the benefit of his friendship ever since I entered politics.
I had the good fortune to speak at the nomination convention of Mr. Deputy Speaker, the hon. member for Stormont, a year or so ago, and I believe I have the agreement of all hon. members present when I say his position too is a just reward for his capacities. He has already established a good reputation in the chair, even showing courage enough to stand up to the ministry on occasion. To you, sir, as the deputy chairman of committees I also extend my heartiest congratulations.
The motive behind this motion today is the result of a growing urbanized society, a society that will be choked if it cannot break out into the outdoors. That is what I understand the mover to mean when he says in his motion that we must establish a parks program to "meet the growing recreational needs of a changing society". In Canada we have 15 metropolitan centres which contain nearly 40 per cent of our population. It is because of that concentration of population that our people are in need of outdoor recreation We have had an outstanding population growth accompanied by the phenomenon of increased leisure time. We have the increased mobility given to us by the automobile, and although my hon. friend calls it the affluent society, I can say we do have a certain increase in our standard of living. What has been the result of this, and why do I suggest this motion meets with the general endorsement of the house? It is because there has occurred a crisis in recreation, and it is composed largely of urban pressures. This has made our national parks system inadequate.
1618	HOUSE OF
Request jor Parks Recreational Program
If I might cite to the house the figures of the numbers of people who have visited our national parks over the years, I think it will illustrate just what I mean. In 1911 there were 100,000 annual visitors to our national parks; in 1920, 150,000; in 1930, 500,000, and in 1939, a million. Bringing the figures up to date, last year there were 7J million visitors to our national scenic parks.
I have had a projection made for me by the officials of the national parks branch wherein they estimate that this year we will see over 8 million people visit those parks, and in 1970 it is estimated that 10.5 million people will visit our park lands. By 1975 this will increase to 15.5 million people. This, you will appreciate, has put an undue strain on the whole national parks system, and if the house were to allow me the necessary consent to table two charts, I would like to do so. One chart indicates the increase in visitor attendance to our national parks over the past 32 years, and the other chart indicates the increase in the use of national park camp grounds over the past 12 years. I think the house would get a very graphic view from these charts of just how impressive the growth in the use of our parks has been.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Batten):: Does the hon. gentleman have the unanimous consent of the house to table these two charts?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


John Napier Turner: As I have said, this phenomenal' increase has placed undue demands on the facilities of our national parks, because they were not originally established to supply mass recreation. They were established to preserve the wilderness of the country, to preserve sections of this land in its natural state, so that those who came after, and future generations to come, could travel unmolested in virgin timberland and near silent streams in order to re-create themselves, which after all is perhaps the compound from which the word recreation is properly derived. But despite the efforts of the national parks branch-and I would like to take the opportunity to congratulate the men and women who staff this branch, a branch that is understaffed today-the national parks system has become inadequate. Consequently we have in Canada a need to supplement and complement the national parks system. That is, I presume, what the motion refers to. We must extend the national, provincial and other parks systems in this country. We must preserve the areas of Canada that are best suited for recreation while there is still time, while there is still land available and while they still can be preserved without a massive expenditure.


I would suggest then, sir, that we must have a formal recognition by this house of recreation as a vital use of land, of recreation as a renewable land resource. The problem, as the hon. member has quite rightly pointed out, is that the jurisdiction over most of the available land is provincial. We must therefore look toward a co-operative federalism, if you will, to combining and co-ordinating the federal and provincial jurisdictions. It was to that end that the first federal-provincial park conference was held last year which established for the first time a contact between the two levels of government on park matters. Because there is a common problem my suggestion to the house would be that a conference or a series of conferences from year to year or every second year is no longer enough; that we should set up a permanent federal-provincial secretariat in charge of co-ordinating the planning, development and use of parkland, which would also be in charge of developing new lands. This secretariat would be a clearing house as well, so that some of the less favoured provinces could benefit from the experience of those which have been more blessed by nature and wealth. I said that time is of the essence because unless these lands are set aside for recreation now, mineral, forest and hydroelectric development will assume an early control over these lands and deprive them forever from the use of the citizenry of this country as a means of enjoying leisure time.
What is a national park? I have already said that it is a wilderness area where nature is preserved in its natural state. It can only be preserved if alternate and intermediate areas of recreation are immediately developed so that the boating, hiking and other more mechanized forms of recreation can be put into this type of land so that the national parks can be preserved in their sanctity. There are dangers to our parklands today. Commercialism is one. The pressures of profit must not be allowed to scar the beauties of this country. I would urge the house in its consideration of this problem to recommend, in conjunction with the provinces, at some future date, that the countryside be zoned so that private enterprise untramelled and unrestrained will not, helter-skelter, scar the countryside to the detriment of the general common weal. The parks have another enemy, the machine age. The very automobile that allows people to get there also tends to encroach on the sanctity of the parkland. There are dangers of too easy an access, because we do not have respect for what we do not have to work for. I can remember the chagrin I had in northern Ontario in the Temagami area at one time when with two friends of mine we spent over a week and a half to

canoe into lake Florence right in the Gow-ganda area. After we had been fishing there for two days an airplane landed with three or four fishermen who had taken about an hour and a half from Toronto to get to the same source of nature's bounty that had taken us a week and a half to reach. The private occupation of the key areas of some public lands of our national parks is also a hazard. I would think that the house would want to endorse a policy to the effect that public land in the national parks must remain open to the ordinary citizen and must not be blocked by those who have been allowed over past years to build cottages and shacks and put up tents on a yearly leasehold basis until they consider the land almost their own and impede its access to the ordinary man, woman and child. I say this because the national parks are surely dedicated to all the people of Canada and are maintained by the general taxpayer for public use. It is not the purpose of the national parks to provide summer residential subdivisions, cottage lots or shack-tent areas for the exclusive use and possession of private individuals.
The people who will benefit from future recreation are the generations to come. Sometimes, Mr. Speaker, out of the mouths of babes wisdom is ordained and strengthened. I have here a colour book with certain little essays prepared by the children of the Banff composite high school at Banff national park, which was the first of our national parks. I would like to commend the teacher of this seventh grade social studies class, Mrs. Kathleen McAuley who had, if I might say so, the good sense to ask her pupils to tell her, the country and themselves what they thought the purpose of a national park should be. One little boy, Phillip Elliott, wrote this
Request for Parks Recreational Program and I think it is perhaps as good a definition of a national park as I have read. He wrote that "a national park should serve men as a reminder of what he almost completely destroyed in many cases and prevent him from doing it again." I am sure the hon. member would admit that this young man has put the case as well as or better than either he or I could put it.
Therefore I am happy to endorse the idea behind this motion and hope that some day soon it will become an item of national policy and will meet the approval of the provincial governments that we set up a permanent secretariat in charge of our park-lands. This is my hope, because what we do today, sir, will influence the welfare and happiness of countless generations of our fellow citizens, of children such as those whose handiwork I have brought to the attention of this honourable house this afternoon.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Batten):: Order. A few moments ago the house gave unanimous consent to the hon. member for St. Lawrence-St. George (Mr. Turner) tabling two charts. I am wondering whether I correctly interpreted the wishes of the hon. member. Does the hon. member want these two charts tabled, or does he want them reproduced in Hansard?


John Napier Turner: I would prefer, Mr. Speaker, if the house would agree, to have them reproduced in Hansard.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Batten):: Is there unanimous consent to this being done?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
[Editor's note: The charts referred to above are as follows:]
1620	HOUSE OF COMMONS
Request for Parks Recreational Program
[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Batten).]
Request for Parks Recreational Program
1622	HOUSE OF
Request for Parks Recreational Program


Thomas Speakman Barnett: Mr. Speaker, I rise to speak briefly in support of the motion which has been put before us this afternoon by the hon. member for Brandon-Souris (Mr. Dinsdale) in respect to the need for an enlarged and broader program of recreational parks which would involve a greater measure of federal and provincial co-operation in this field than perhaps has heretofore prevailed. I thought I might underline the need for federal action as suggested in this resolution by attempting to focus the attention of the house on what I consider to be one of the great, untapped recreational reservoirs of our country. This area I would describe, roughly, as being the western coast of Vancouver island. Most of this area lies within the boundaries of my constituency of Comox-Albemi, though some parts to the south lie within Nanaimo and the constituency of Esquimalt-Saanich. In case the house may think I am taking an unduly parochial approach in my remarks, perhaps I should point out that the area embraced by the part of my constituency to which I refer is roughly the size of the whole of Nova Scotia, and I think most of us are aware that within that province the national parks have at least gained a foothold, which is more than one can say with regard to Vancouver island.
The western coast of Vancouver island is a land of mountains and seascapes, of tree-covered hills and long inlets which some people say remind them of the fjords of Norway. Miles of rocky shore line are interspersed with beautiful sand beaches. It is a land where we have hot springs. There is also a great deal of attractive fishing both in salt water and in fresh water lakes. Yet the whole area is virtually untapped and unknown.
I have often remarked that most British Columbians have never seen the ocean even though they live on the shores of salt water in cities such as Vancouver. The area of which I have been speaking is within relatively easy reach of existing transportation facilities but, as I say, few people now take advantage of its great possibilities. This underlines the need for a broader program on the lines suggested in this resolution as well as illustrating the fact that we in Canada are indeed well endowed with opportunities for increasing the scope of the programs we have undertaken so far for the provision of increased outdoor recreation facilities.
I might point out that this; land is one of considerable historic interest. As far as knowledge of the white man is concerned, it may not be as ancient as the coast of New-

foundland, but its history goes back some distance into the past. It was on this coast that the first landfall was made in what is now Canada from the Pacific ocean when Captain James Cook landed at Friendly cove on Nootka island, one of the smaller islands adjacent to Vancouver island, in 1778. He opened up the era when the white men were venturing on to the shores of what we now know as our country of Canada. Shortly after this, the first economic venture of the white man took place with the development of the sea otter trade between the western shore and China. So vigorously was this "trade" pursued that the sea otter is now practically extinct.
I would point out that on Vancouver island we do have a large park, Strathcona provincial park. This park is referred to less frequently than is Garibaldi park, the other large provincial park in British Columbia. Nevertheless, I think it would be fair to say that the tourist potential of Strathcona is in many ways at least equal to that of Garibaldi. It is a matter of considerable regret to me that the present provincial administration in British Columbia has shown so little disposition, until now at any rate, to co-operate in giving facilities for federal park developments in the coastal regions of British Columbia. I believe that if some of these projects were undertaken as part of a national program developments would take place at a pace in keeping with the need for recreation which is developing in Canada.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Batten):: It being six o'clock I must advise the house that the hour for private members' business has now expired.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Gordon Minto Churchill: Will the leader of the house let us know the proposed program for tomorrow and Friday?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Tomorrow, as I indicated at the end of last week, we intend to start the debate on the department of industry bill. Should we complete it, we would take, and I hope, complete, the resolution stage of the Atlantic development board bill. Should there be any more time tomorrow I would ask hon. members to make a beginning on the C.N.R. finance resolution. I do not seriously anticipate we shall reach this, but my colleague, the president of the council is unable to be in the house tomorrow, and the third item for Friday would be the economic council bill.


[Stage Direction]
At six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[Stage Direction]
Thursday, June 27, 1963