1963-12-18

Mr. G. H. Aiken (Parry Sound-Muskoka):: Mr. Speaker, may I rise on a question of privilege. Last evening, as reported at page 6036 of Hansard, I referred to the actions of an hon. member by using the words "fast trick". On reflection, and after discussing the matter with the hon. member, I feel I ought to have described the situation rather as an unfortunate misunderstanding caused by a failure of communication.



RAILWAYS, CANALS AND TELEGRAPH LINES

[Stage Direction]
Fifth report of standing committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines-Mr. Pennell.


Mr. Ralph Cowan (York-Humber):: Mr. Speaker, in Votes and Proceedings of today I ask:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of the current agreement between the Department of Transport and Air Terminal Transport Limited, effective from August 1, 1960, for a period of ten years, for the provision of a ground transportation service between Toronto-Hamilton international airport and the two cities.
Inasmuch as we will not have another period before the house recesses for Christmas in which motions for the production of papers will come up, might I have the unanimous consent of the house to agree to the production of these papers before the Christmas recess?


Mr. Speaker:: I do not believe this is the proper time, but with a view to saving time perhaps the house might be willing to give unanimous consent. Does the house give unanimous consent?


Some hon. Members:: No.



QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. Horner (Acadia): How many leaders of parties are at present receiving the $4,000 provided for in Bill No. C-91 as assented to August 2, 1963?


Mr. Benson:: Two.


* PARTY LEADER ALLOWANCE OF $4,000
Mr. Coates: 1.	To how many leaders of parties is the allowance of $4,000 being paid?
2.	On what date did each of the leaders (a) commence to receive the $4,000 allowance (b) cease to receive the allowance?


Edgar John Benson: 1. Two.
2.	(a) Mr. R. Caouette, October 21, 1963; Mr. T. C. Douglas, April 8, 1963; Mr. R. Thompson, April 8, 1963. (b) Mr. R. Thompson, October 20, 1963.


SCHOOLS ON ASSINIBOINE INDIAN RESERVE
Mr. Langlois: With reference to schools on the Assiniboine Indian reserve, situated between Montmartre and Wolsley, Saskatchewan, since 1950, (a) how many schools have been built (b) now many were repaired (c) what was the amount allocated for construction (d) what was the amount allocated for repairs (e) who is, or who were, the contractor or contractors who obtained contracts either for construction or for repairs, and (f) who were the other bidders, and at what prices?


Mr. Munro:: (a) One, in 1955-56.
(b)	Repairs were carried out on two single classroom units and to the school constructed in 1955-56.
(c)	Original construction $52,257.98
Installation of water treatment system 1958-59	1,385.60
Total $53,643.58
(d)	Repairs to buildings	$19,937.62
Repairs to equipment	334.41
Total $20,272.03
The greater part of this amount was expended on numerous small repair jobs and for local purchases for which tenders were not called.
(e)	and (f)
Construction: 1. For construction of the new school and staff quarters, Hartmier Construction Co., 22 Myrtle ave., Yorkton, Saskatchewan. Unsuccessful bidder (only two

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tenders received), Beckard Construction Co. Ltd., 1791 Rose south, Regina, Saskatchewan, $53,648.15.
2.	For installation of new water treatment system, L. S. Huntley, Indian Head, Saskatchewan. Unsuccessful bidder (only two tenders received), Botting and Dent, Prince Albert, Saskatchewan, $1,690.
Repairs: 1. Improvements to water system (one tender only received), W. T. Cawley, 2070 Pasqua street, Regina, Saskatchewan.
2.	For installation of water pressure system, Waterman, Waterbury, Regina, Saskatchewan. No tenders called. Contract given to the plumbing and heating subcontractor employed on the job by the construction contractor.
3.	For miscellaneous repairs, Sintaluta Lumber Yard, Sintaluta, Saskatchewan. Unsuccessful bidder (only two tenders received), L. Jardine, Indian Head, Saskatchewan, $3,542.03.
4.	For renovation of old building for classroom (one tender only received), L. S. Huntley, Indian Head, Saskatchewan.


EDMONTON, ALTA., SUB-POST OFFICES
Mr. Lambert: Since April 22, 1963, have there been any changes in sub-postmastership or any sub-post offices closed or new ones opened in the city of Edmonton, Alberta and, if so (a) what are the numbers of the sub-post offices (b) the location of each, and (c) the effective date of any change or of the opening (d) what persons outside of post office officials in Edmonton were consulted with respect to each of the changes or openings?


Mr. Denis:: Yes, as follows:
(a)	(b)
Sub 9	10306-82nd street
Sub 11 90th avenue and 112th street
Sub 51	12060 Jasper ave.
(c)
31- 7-63 (postmaster resigned) 25- 5-63 (postmaster resigned)
4-11-63 (reopening of office)
Sub 64 11565-136th street
Sub 66 7810-73rd avenue
Sub 81	9046-132nd avenue
Sub 86	10769-95th street
30- 4-63 (postmaster resigned)
(office permanently closed on recommendation of district director)
16- 8-63 (postmaster resigned)
(office closed temporarily on recommendation of district director)
27- 5-63 (postmaster resigned)
(office closed temporarily but district director making inquiry on question of reopening)
11- 7-63 (new sub office)
(d)
John Decore.
Nil.
J. Harper Prowse. Appointment recommended by district director J. Harper Prowse.
John Decore.
Don Brinton.
Don Brinton.


RESEARCH STUDY OF INDIAN AFFAIRS, B.C.
Mr. Howard: 1.	Since January 1, 1957, has Professor Hawthorn of the University of British Columbia been approached to undertake any research type, or other study of Indian affairs in British Columbia and, if so, when was such an approach or approaches made?
2.	What reply or replies were received from Professor Hawthorn and upon what dates?
3.	Is such a study of Indian affairs to be undertaken and, if so, what are the terms of reference, the names and addresses of the personnel who will be conducting the said study, and when will the study be started?
4.	If such a study is not to be undertaken what is the reason therefor?
5.	Was any suggestion made to Professor Hawthorn that the personnel of such a group conducting such a study consist of an equal number

of English background people and French background people and, if so (a) what was the reply or replies thereto (b) what was the reasoning behind such a proposal (c) what is the explanation that such a proposal was sensible and would lead to an effective study?
6.	If such a study is not to be undertaken because of the impracticabilities of conducting it through a bilingual group instituted from the government level, will another approach be made to Professor Hawthorn asking him again to undertake such a study with personnel whom he thinks are intellectually and professionally suited for the task?


John Carr Munro: 1. Yes. Discussions were held with Dr. H. B. Hawthorn early last summer regarding the proposed research program and his acceptance as director.
2.	Not applicable.
3.	Yes. An agreement with the University of British Columbia was completed in Oc-

tober whereby the university undertakes to examine into the social, cultural, economic, political and educational problems related to the integration of Indian individuals into Canadian society and of Indian communities into the provincial-municipal framework within which other Canadian communities operate. Dr. H. B. Hawthorn, department of anthropology, University of British Columbia, Vancouver, is director and Dr. Marc-Adelard Tremblay, faculty of social sciences, Laval University, Quebec, P.Q., is associate director. It is expected that specialists and research assistants located in various universities and research centres throughout Canada will be appointed by the research directors to undertake portions of the research as required. The research program is now being organized in detail.
4.	Not applicable.
5.	No.
6.	Not applicable.


SURPLUS WHEAT
Mr. Laiulippe: 1.	What was the volume and value of surplus wheat in Canada for each of the past five years?
2.	How much of that surplus, was disposed of during those five years to underdeveloped countries?
3.	How much of that surplus has been processed to produce wheat products, what were such products and (a) in what amounts were they produced
(b)	what was the processing cost (c) to whom were the sales made?
4.	How much has the storage of that surplus cost yearly for the past five years?
5.	How much of that surplus is stored in the province of Quebec, what is its value and, what are the carrying charges and the storage costs?
6.	What are the carrying charges concerning wheat surpluses?

Answer: 1. There is no surplus wheat, as such, in Canada. Total stocks may vary from time to time but it is impossible to establish a quantity which may be considered surplus or in excess of requirements. This fact has been dramatically demonstrated this fall when an unprecedented demand for Canadian wheat developed. Accordingly, the only information available is the total available wheat supply situation each year. The quantities available for export and domestic use in each year commencing 1959-60 are as follows:
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under three programs; the Colombo Plan, U.N.R.W.A. and in 1959-60, the special Chile relief program. Total shipments of wheat and flour equivalent under these programs were
as follows: 1958-59	11.6	million	bushels1959-60	8.6	ii	ii1960-61	8.4	ii	it1961-62	7.3	it	it1962-63	1.8	it	a3.	As noted in part 1, none of the supply is classified as surplus. Within Canada the bulk of the wheat processed is milled into flour. The amount of wheat so processed for domestic and export use in the past five crop years was as follows:1958-	591959-	601960-	611961-	621962-	6390.143.000	bushels91.390.000	bushels89.731.000	bushels88.241.000	bushels78.789.000	bushels
The milling industry's flour exports and volume available for domestic use in the past five years was:
Available for Exports domestic use (cwt)
1958-	59
1959-	60
1960-	61
1961-	62
1962-	63
16.141.000
16.074.000
15.514.000
13.893.000
11.854.000
10.250.000
10.544.000
10.766.000
11.275.000
10.182.000
The bulk of the flour used in Canada is sold to be processed into bread, cakes, biscuits, etc. but other industrial uses include feeds, starch and adhesives and miscellaneous chemicals. The pulp and paper industry and the explosive manufactories also use small quantities.
Information pertaining to the processing costs of wheat is not available.
4.	As indicated in part 1, a surplus of wheat does not exist in Canada; consequently a reply cannot be given relative to the storage cost of surplus wheat. The carrying costs for all wheat delivered to the Canadian wheat board in the last five pools that are now closed were as follows:
Crop	Carry-	TotalYear	over	Production	Supplies(million	bushels)	1959-60	588.0	445.1	1,033.11960-61	599.6	518.4	1,118.01961-62	607.8	283.4	891.21962-63	391.1	565.5	956.61963-64	488.8	723.4	1,212.2
2. During the last five years gift shipments of wheat and flour from Canada were made
Paid by the government under the Paid by the Temporary Wheat
Pool	producers	Reserves Act	Total
	(million dollars)		
1957-58	16.7	39.6	56.31958-59	18.4	42.9	61.31959-60	16.4	48.5	64.91960-61	16.5	39.7	56.21961-62	11.2	37.8	49.0
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Questions
5.	August 1 wheat stocks in store St. Lawrence ports in province of Quebec, 1958 to 1962.
1958	21.0
1959	17.5
1960	26.6
1961	26.9
1962	24.4
6.	The carrying charges concerning stocks of wheat comprise storage costs set at 1/30 of a cent per bushel per day, together with interest charges.


COMMUNITY CENTRE, ESKASONI INDIAN RESERVE
Mr. Muir (Cape Breton: North and Victoria):
Is consideration being given by the Department of Citizenship and Immigration toward the construction of a community centre at the Eskasoni Indian reservation which would be a joint financial project between the band council and the Indian affairs branch and, if so, what progress is being made and, what conclusions have been reached?


John Carr Munro: No. However, it is understood a committee comprising local residents has been formed to raise funds for a community centre.


*C.B.C.-EMPLOYMENT OP FORMER MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT AND EXECUTIVE ASSISTANTS
Mr. Macaluso: 1.	Have any persons who were former members of parliament and defeated in the 1962 or 1963 federal elections been employed by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation in any capacity and, if so, what are their names and, what are their duties?
2.	Have any former executive assistants or other persons paid out of public funds on the staff of ministers of the crown who served since June 21, 1957 been employed by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation in any capacity and, if so, what are their names and, what are their duties?


Mr. Pickersgill:: I am informed by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation as follows:
1.	No former members of parliament, defeated in the 1962 or 1963 federal elections, have been employed on the staff of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. A check is being carried out at all locations to determine whether any have been engaged in any other capacity, such as freelance participation on single programs or series. Preliminary and incomplete information indicates Messrs. Egan Chambers and Hon. Howard Green were guest participants in programs originating from Vancouver for a total of three occasions. Hon. Frank McGee is being used as moderator of the series "The Sixties," usually originating from Ottawa.
2.	Difficulty has been encountered in obtaining a list of persons formerly on the staff of ministers of the crown. With the assistance of Mr. Macaluso, this question was revised to deal only with executive assistants
[Mr. Latulippe.l
and senior personal assistants and a list of 63 names was obtained from the office of the privy council only December 13. None of these persons have been employed on the staff of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. A check is being carried out at all locations concerning this list to determine whether any have been engaged in any other capacity. Preliminary and incomplete information indicates that Mr. Roy Faibish is being used as a program contributor at Ottawa and that others have been used but current data is insufficient to establish whether this was before or after their association with ministers of the crown.


INDIAN CO-OPERATIVES
Mr. Orlikow: 1.	How many people are there working in the Indian affairs branch of the Department of Citizenship and Immigration in the promotion of co-operatives among Indians and what areas do they cover?
2.	How many Indian co-operatives have been organized and what is the location of each?
3.	How much business do these co-operatives do according to reports received by the branch?
4.	What plan has the Indian affairs branch for increasing the staff working on the promotion of Indian co-operatives?


John Carr Munro: 1. There are no staff assigned on a full time basis to the promotion of cooperatives in the Indian affairs branch. However, one of the duties of the field staff located throughout Canada is to encourage the development of co-operatives where conditions lend themselves to this type of organization.
2.	Thirty co-operatives whose membership is wholly or substantially Indian have been organized through local efforts, usually with assistance from provincial government departments concerned with co-operatives, from cooperative organizations or from the Indian affairs branch, or a combination of these. Locations are as follows: Yukon Territory, 1; Northwest Territories, 1; British Columbia, 1; Alberta, 1; Saskatchewan, 13; Manitoba, 10; Ontario, 2; Quebec, 1. In addition, some 20 projects, mostly fisheries, are currently operated on a co-operative basis without a formal organization under the supervision of the Indian affairs branch, which in a number of cases employs seasonal supervisors for this purpose.
3.	The Indian affairs branch does not receive regular reports from the Indian co-operatives, which are independent entities.
4.	The Indian affairs branch plans to encourage Indian participation in co-operatives by co-operating with provincial governments and such organizations as the Co-operative Union of Canada and its provincial associates.


INDIAN REVOLVING LOAN FUND
Mr. Orlikow: 1.	How much money is there in the revolving loan fund established for the use of Indians?
2.	How much money has been loaned to Indian communities from this fund to help them establish co-operatives?
3.	How many loans have been made and for what periods of time?
4.	At what rates were these loans made?
5.	How much of the money loaned has been repaid?


John Carr Munro: 1. As at October 31, of the $1 million authorized in the revolving loan fund under section 69(5) of the Indian Act, there was the sum of $198,421.02 available for loans.
2.	$15,000 has been loaned to organized cooperatives.
3.	From January 1, 1939 to October 31, 1963, 1,553 loans representing a total of $2,167,340.94 have been made for repayment periods of up to 10 years.
4.	5 per cent simple interest per annum.
5.	From January 1, 1939, to October 31, 1963, $1,189,258.07 principal has been repaid to the revolving loan fund.


STUDY OF AUTOMATION
Mr. Latulippe: 1.	Were representations made to the Minister of Labour or other members of the cabinet requesting the government to vote funds or to appoint a board or other agency for a study of the effects of automation on the labour market in Canada?
2.	Have Canadian labour unions made representations to the government concerning such a study and, if so, which unions, and what were their main recommendations?


Mr. MacEachen:: 1. No such representations have been made to the present government.
2.	No.


CANADIAN CO-OPERATION WITH U.S. PEACE CORPS
Mr. Latulippe: Does Canada co-operate in any way with the United States peace corps in any country where the corps operates and, if so (a) in what way (b) at what expense, and (c) on whose authority?


Mr. Martin (Essex East):: Under the Canadian bilateral programs of external assistance, educational and technical advisers are provided to countries where the personnel of the peace corps may also serve. In addition voluntary organizations in Canada send personnel abroad and in certain cases they may work in the same areas as the personnel of the peace corps. However, these are separate national programs for which each country takes its own responsibilities and pays its own expenses.
28902-5-385J
Questions


LANDINGS AND TAKE-OFFS, VANCOUVER AIRPORT
Mr. Maiher: 1.	What was the number of landings and takeoffs at Vancouver international airport for the month of October 1958, and for the month of October, 1963?
2.	In relation to traffic (landings and take-offs), how does Vancouver international airport rank with other airports on the North American continent?
3.	Does the Department of Transport intend to continue levying a one dollar landing fee at Vancouver international airport?
4.	In what percentage of cases of planes landing at Vancouver international airport are such fees collected?


Mr. Mcllraiih:: 1. October 1958, 19,848 landings and take-offs; October 1963, 6,810 landings and take-offs.
2.	Vancouver international airport ranked 51st in relation to traffic, landings and takeoffs, when compared with other airports on the North American continent excepting Mexico for which statistics are not readily available.
3.	Yes.
4.	Seven per cent of the aircraft landing at this airport pay the one dollar landing fee.


MAIL SERVICE, AHOUSAT, B.C.
Mr. Barnett: 1.	What is the frequency of the current mail service to and from Ahousat, B.C., and what day or days of each week or month are mails scheduled to arrive and be dispatched?
2.	Are mails always received and dispatched on the scheduled days and, if not, on how many occasions during the last 12 months has a variation from the schedule occurred?
3.	Over what route is the mail carried between Vancouver, B.C. and Ahousat, B.C., and who is the carrier or carriers of the mail over this route?
4.	For the most recent 12-month period for which figures are available, what was the cost of transporting the mails to and from Ahousat?


Azellus Denis: 1. Once per week, Tuesday.
2.	Yes, under normal conditions. Delays occurred on seven occasions because of weather conditions.
3.	Vancouver to Nanaimo, B.C. Pony Express Ltd. Nanaimo to Port Alberni, Alert Service Transfer Ltd.; Port Alberni to Tofino, Long Beach Transportation Ltd.; Tofino to Ahousat, Tofino Tug and Barge Co.
4.	$1,194.32, December 1, 1962 to November 30, 1963.
Note: Since December 11, 1963 Ahousat is served once per week on Friday by the Vancouver and Fair harbour water route which is operated by the Northland Navigation Co. Mr. H. Clarke, postmaster, Ahousat, conveys the mail between the post office and the wharf.

Questions


INDIAN BOARDING SCHOOL, ST. MARC DE FIGUERY, QUE.  FUEL OIL
Mr. Laprise: 1.	For the fiscal years 1957-58, 1958-59, 1959-60, 1960-61, 1961-62 and 1962-63, who was the supplier of fuel oil to the Amos Indian boarding school at St. Marc de Figuery, in the county of Cha-pleau?
2.	For each of the said fiscal years, what was the cost of fuel for that boarding school?
3.	Were tenders called for each of the said years and, if so, have the contracts always been awarded to the lowest bidder?


John Carr Munro: Purchase of fuel for the Amos residential school at St. Marc de Figuery is the responsibility of the Oblate order of the Roman Catholic church who operate the school. The information is therefore not available.


CARETAKER OF LIGHTS, PICTOU LANDING, N.S.
Mr. MacEwan: Were affidavits filed with the Department of Transport setting out evidence of active political partisanship in the discharge of Gordon Chisholm as caretaker of the Pictou bar lights at Pictou landing, Nova Scotia and, if so, who were the deponents to the affidavits?


George James McIlraith: While no affidavit was filed, Mr. Chisholm was afforded full opportunity to deny, in writing, the charge of active political partisanship and offered no defence or refutation.
^BENEVOLENT FUND FOR HONG KONG PRISONERS OF WAR


Mr. Herridge: Has a benevolent fund been set up for ex-prisoners of war captured at Hong Kong from the war claims fund as recommended by the veterans affairs committee of the House of Commons and, if not, for what reason?


Mr. Carter:: No such benevolent fund has been set up from the war claims fund itself. However, by agreement with the international committee of the Red Cross, a benevolent fund, known as the prisoner of war (far east world war II) trust fund, was established on January 31, 1962, from funds made available to the Red Cross under article 16 of the Japanese peace treaty. This fund, which now stands at approximately $16,500, is used to alleviate special distress cases and help eligible veterans meet emergencies.


POST OFFICE, MONO CENTRE, ONT.
Mr. Madill: 1.	Who requested that the post office be moved from the general store in Mono Centre, Ontario, where it has been located for over a century, to a private house?
2.	Has the Postmaster General received complaints about the quality of service provided by the appointed postmistress who has recently purchased the store, and was relieved of this position, Friday, November 29, 1963?
I Mr. Denis.]
3.	Were tenders called for this position of postmaster?
4.	Were tenders called for a new location?
5.	What is the rental basis for the post office?
6.	What is the salary of the new postmaster?


Azellus Denis: 1. No request received. The postmaster resigned.
2.	No. Mrs. Ruby McLaine was not appointed postmaster. She was placed in temporary charge pending an appointment.
3.	Tenders are not called to fill positions of postmasters. Postmasters of offices in this group are appointed by the Postmaster General.
4.	No. A change of ownership of a building housing a post office does not affect the selection of a new postmaster when such a position becomes vacant.
5.	Postmasters of post offices in this group are paid a salary which covers the work performed and the provision of adequate and suitable accommodation.
6.	$1,080.


* CONSTRUCTION EMPLOYEES, JUSTICE DEPARTMENT CENTRE, COWANSVILLE, QUE.
Mr. Graffiey: 1.	How many persons are employed on the first stage of construction of the justice department's new centre at Cowansville, Quebec?
2.	Have all workers on the project been paid regularly and, if not (a) will the government immediately investigate the reasons for any delay (b) will the government ensure the payment before Christmas of any worker whose salary or pay is in arrears?
3.	Were any of the workers paid by cheque and were all such cheques honoured by the banks?


Mr. Badanai:: 1. During the week December 2 to December 6, three tradesmen, one foreman and one timekeeper were employed. However in the earlier phases of construction the average strength of the labour force was 85.
2.	The department was informed that payments were not made regularly and an investigation is being carried out and arrangements are being made with the local bank to have outstanding payments made to workers whose salary or pay is in arrears. The department cannot be certain at this time that all these payments will be made before Christmas but they will be cleared up as soon as possible.
3.	Some workers were paid by cheque and the department has been informed that some of the wage cheques were not honoured by the bank.


* PLAYING OF &quot;O CANADA&quot;, PEACE TOWER, OTTAWA
Mr. Ryan: What is the schedule, if any, for the playing of the special arrangement of the music to "O Canada" on the carillon of the peace tower on parliament hill, in Ottawa?


John Carr Munro: "O Canada" is played at the conclusion of all advertised recitals by the dominion carillonneur.


ADVERTISING AND PROMOTION OF DRUGS
Mr. Orlikow: Is the government considering implementation of the recommendation made in the report of the restrictive trade practices commission on the manufacture, distribution and sale of drugs as to "the advisability of bringing under the supervision of the food and drug directorate all advertising and promotion activities related to drugs, including the distribution of samples and the content of advertising literature", and the establishment "under the auspices of the federal government, of an authoritative publication giving all necessary particulars concerning new drugs"?


Miss LaMarsh:: The Food and Drugs Act, which is administered by the Department of National Health and Welfare, has provided considerable authority for a number of years to regulate the labelling and advertising of drugs. This authority is designed to prevent the false or misleading advertising of drugs, and the existing authority is quite broad and comprehensive in this field.
The 1962 amendment of the Food and Drugs Act clearly prohibits the distribution of drug samples to the public and also provides for a regulated distribution of drug samples to physicians, veterinarians, dentists and pharmacists. Regulations have been promulgated that set forth the conditions under which samples may be distributed to members of these professions.
The recommendation of the restrictive trade practices commission that an authoritative publication of new drugs be produced under the auspices of the federal government is still under consideration by the Department of National Health and Welfare.


STAFF OF FOOD AND DRUG DIRECTORATE
Mr. Orlikow: Is the government considering implementation of the recommendation made in report of the restrictive trade practices commission on the manufacture, distribution and sale of drugs that "the staff of the food and drug directorate should be enlarged considerably to ensure thorough enforcement of the regulations"?


Julia Verlyn (Judy) LaMarsh: The establishment of the food and drug directorate has been increased to over 500 in the current fiscal year through the addition of 102 new positions. Further staff increases in future years are now being considered by the Department of National Health and Welfare and the treasury board.


REGULATIONS RESPECTING DRUGS
Mr. Orlikow: 1. Has the government taken any steps to implement the recommendation made in the report of the restrictive trade practices commission on the
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manufacture, distribution and sale of drugs that there should be more stringent regulations under the Food and Drugs Act with respect to the manufacture, promotion and introduction of drugs, in order to give reasonable assurance that all prescription drugs offered for sale in Canada are safe to use and of good quality, and spelled out concretely by the commission in the following recommended changes in the regulations namely:
(a)	All premises in which drugs are manufactured should be subject to inspection by the food and drug directorate;
(b)	Requirements in connection with new drug submissions should be extended to include detailed reports of the tests made to establish the therapeutic effectiveness of the drug as well as the present requirement of reports of tests to establish the safety of the drug; such a change would make mandatory a joint evaluation of toxicity and efficacy before a new drug is put on sale;
(c)	The food and drug directorate should be given the duty of inspecting and assaying samples from a sufficiently large number of batches of every prescription drug manufactured in Canada or imported from abroad to make it reasonably certain that it meets minimum standards of purity and therapeutic efficacy;
(d)	All labels, advertisements or other descriptive material relating to single drugs and official compounds should be required to carry the proper name prominently and in type at least as large as that used for the brand name; and that a study should be made to ascertain if and to what extent a similar requirement would be feasible in respect of compound ethical drugs?
2.	If so, what steps have been taken in each case?


Julia Verlyn (Judy) LaMarsh: The amendments during the past year to the food and drug regulations will be effective in achieving most of the objectives of the recommendations that were cited in the inquiry. More specifically, all premises producing drugs for sale in Canada are subject to inspection by the food and drug directorate. Regulations have been passed during the past year governing the manufacturing processes and quality control procedures in these drug manufacturing plants. Regulations concerning new drugs have been extensively revised, and substantial evidence of effectiveness is now specifically required to be included in the new drug submission. Samples of imported and domestically produced drugs are analysed and examined by the food and drug directorate. Without a tremendous increase in the staff and facilities of the food and drug directorate, however, its analyses cannot establish with certainty that every batch of prescription drugs sold in Canada meet minimum standards of purity and therapeutic efficacy. Also, as a matter of principle, the directorate should not assume the role of production control laboratory for drug manufacturers. The work of the food and drug directorate does encourage the manufacturers, however, to conscientiously fulfil their responsibility for the purity and efficacy of their drug products.
The regulations under the Food and Drugs Act have required for many years that the

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proper name of single drugs and officially designated compound drugs be clearly and prominently displayed on the label in type not less that one half the size of the brand name. In addition, the regulations require a readily discernible quantitative statement of the medicinal ingredients to be included on the labels of compound ethical drugs.
The possibility of identifying all compound drugs with officially designated proper names has been considered several times. It is believed that such an approach would only create more confusion, however, because of the infinite variety of compound drugs that differ both in constituents and in their proportions.
This and other aspects of drug labelling and advertising are being frequently reviewed in the light of the experience gained in administering the Food and Drugs Act and of the views of other interested parties.


REPORT ON DEVELOPMENT OF BANFF TOWNSITE
Mr. Dinsdale: 1.	When was the Oberlander report on the development of Banff townsite received by the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources?
2.	Have any of its recommendations been implemented and, if so (a) what are they (b) what other recommendations will be carried out (c) what specific recommendations have been rejected?
3.	Has Dr. Oberlander been asked to proceed to a similar study for Jasper townsite and, if so, when might this report be available?


Mr. Laing:: 1. October 4, 1962.
2.	Yes. (a) (i) General acceptance of the townsite land use recommendations, (ii) Establishment of an interim development committee to consider and recommend proposals for the development of land held under lease, in the townsite.
(b)	(i) Appointment of a townsite manager and formation of a permanent development committee which will act as a townsite management group, (ii) Establishment of a pedestrian mall on Banff avenue, (iii) Development of pedestrian walks and a major promenade along the Bow river, (iv) Development of new road patterns to alleviate traffic congestion.
(c)	None.
3.	Yes; probably by April 1, 1964.


ARMED FORCES PERSONNEL FROM ST. HYACINTHE-BAGOT CONSTITUENCY
Mr. Ricard: What are the names, regimental numbers, ranks and present addresses of all the members of the Canadian armed forces whose home address is located in the constituency of St. Hyacinthe-Bagot?
Answer: Information as to the electoral district in which is located the home address

given by a member of the Canadian armed forces for service records purposes, on enlistment, is not available.


GRAIN EXCESS AND OVERAGE
Mr. Rapp: Since March 31, 1955, what has been the total quantity of grain, excess and overage, received by the Canadian wheat board, its disposition and also of the proceeds therefrom, by the government of Canada under authority of an act to amend the Canadian Grain Act, chapter 9 of the statutes of Canada 1955?
Answer: No grain is delivered to the Canadian wheat board under the provisions of the Canada Grain Act. Any adjustments required are made with the Canadian wheat board on a monetary basis by the board of grain commissioners.
Since March 31, 1955 the moneys paid by the terminal elevator companies to the Canadian wheat board on the direction of the board of grain commissioners were as follows:
1956-	57 crop year	$	814.371957-	58 crop	year	651.461958-	59 crop year	Nil1959-	60 crop	year	369.001960-	61 crop	year	149.571961-	62 crop	year	1,184.43

These amounts as received by the board were credited to the current pool account and, in essence, became revenue for the benefit of producers who delivered to the particular pool.


*TEMPORARY EMPLOYEES, POST OFFICE DEPARTMENT
Mr. Knowles: 1.	How many temporary or casual employees have been taken on by the Post Office Department for the 1963 Christmas period?
2.	How many of these employees were obtained through national employment service? How many were obtained in other ways? What were the other ways in which such employees were obtained?


Mr. McWilliam:: 1. The number of temporary employees taken on will be known only after Christmas. Last year the department employed 50,241.
2. Answers to parts 1 and 2 are not available at this time. Last year, 31,625 were supplied by the national employment service and 18,616 recruited in other ways.
Other ways of recruiting employees are outlined on page 5598 of Hansard of December 9, 1963 as follows:
There are many ways to apply for positions at Christmas. First of all an applicant may go to the post office and apply. Second, he can seek work through the employment bureau, and there are also some members of parliament who recommend

applicants. They can also write to the Postmaster General himself who will refer the names to the respective post offices.


BARGE LANDING FACILITIES, CAMPBELL RIVER, B.C.
Mr. Barneil: 1.	Have requests been received by the government for the development of barge landing facilities at the mouth of Campbell river, Vancouver island, B.C., and, if so, from whom have such requests been received?
2.	Do proposals for the provision of barge landing facilities involve dredging of the river channel near its mouth?
3.	Have any protests been received by the government against proceeding with any such proposals and, if so, by whom have such protests been
made?
4.	Has the government any plans to proceed with the construction of such barge landing facilities?
5.	Have any applications been made under the Navigable Waters Protection Act for approval of plans to construct barge landing facilities in this vicinity by private interests?


Hubert Badanai: 1. Yes. Campbell river and district chamber of commerce village of Campbell River; Mr. H. C. McQuillan.
2.	Yes.
3.	Yes. A petition dated November 26, 1963, containing 35 names was forwarded to the department by Mrs. Marie Nelson of Campbell River protesting against dredging for a commercial cargo landing.
4.	There are no immediate plans for the provision of such facilities.
5.	No.


DISPOSITION OF PROPERTY, HM.C.S. &quot;PREVOST&quot;, LONDON, ONT.
Mr. Irvine: 1.	What disposition is to be made of the buildings and property now occupied by H.M.C.S. Pre-vost in London, Ontario?
2.	Are they to be declared surplus and sold and, if so, when?
Answer: 1 and 2. No decision has yet been taken on the future disposition of the property now occupied by H.M.C.S. Prevost in London, Ont.


CONTRIBUTIONS TO UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE FUND FROM DEDUCTIONS
Mr. Irvine: What were the total contributions from employers, deductions to the unemployment insurance fund, by provinces, in each of the years 1956, 1957, 1958, 1959, 1960, 1961 and 1962?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: Figures representing the total contributions from employers are not available on a provincial basis. However, the following table shows, on a national basis, the amounts contributed by employers.
Fiscal year ending March 31
1957
1959
1961
Questions
Amount of employers contributions $	84,863,485.14
94,000,744.67 96,197,704.30 92,743,521.00
114.307.850.50
137.636.480.50 138,894,382.00


POST OFFICE CONSTRUCTION, NOVA SCOTIA
Mr. Coates: 1.	When will post offices be constructed by the
Department of Public Works in all or any of the following communities in Cumberland:	Westchester, Advocate Harbour, Collingwood, Joggins, Wallace, Southampton?
2.	Will public tenders be called for these projects?
3.	Will the post offices be of a standard size, or will they vary; and, if they vary, what will be the size of each?


Hubert Badanai: 1. It is anticipated that tenders will be called early in 1964 for new post offices at Westchester Station, Advocate Harbour, Collingwood Corner, Joggins, Wallace and Southampton provided that suitable sites can be obtained at reasonable costs.
2.	Yes.
3.	A standard plan for about 480 square feet of space will be used but there may be slight variations for the different localities.


* INCREASED ASSISTANCE TO UNIVERSITIES
Mr. Fairwealher: What decision has the government made about increased assistance to universities and colleges as requested in the brief presented to the Prime Minister in May, 1963 by the Canadian universities foundation?


Mr. Davis:: The representations are being carefully considered and when a decision is reached, an announcement will be made.


* ASSISTANCE TO UNIVERSITY SERVICE OVERSEAS
Mr. Fairwealher: What financial and other assistance is the government prepared to give to the Canadian university service overseas?


John (Jack) Davis: The administrative assistance that has been extended to the Canadian university service overseas during the past two years will be continued. Any decisions that may be taken concerning additional forms of assistance would be announced in the usual way.


*C.B.C. PROGRAM &quot;NEWS MAGAZINE&quot;, APRIL 5, 1963
Mr. Coales: 1. Under whose authority was the special hour long production of News Magazine produced for television on April 5, which was viewed in the maritime provinces from 11 to 12 p.m.?

Questions
2.	What were the names of the participants in this hour long production?
3.	What was the amount paid to Peter Regen-strief for his appearance on this program?
4.	Was this program taped either in whole or in part prior to the hour of viewing and if in part, what portions were taped before viewing?
5.	How many complaints were lodged with the C.B.C. either by telephone or letter regarding the production of this program?


John Whitney Pickersgill: I am informed by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation as follows:
1.	The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation.
2.	Reporters: Norman Depoe, King Brown, J. M. Minifie, Paddy Gregg, Ken Mason, Tom Gould, Warner Troyer, Harry Nuttall.
Interviews with: Dalton Camp, Progressive Conservative national organizer; Dan Laing -I think this name is misspelled-national Liberal campaign chairman for Ontario; David Wilson, national Social Credit association; Cliff Scottin, national Democratic party-I am sure this should be New Democratic party.
Discussion panel: Dr. Eugene Forsey of Canadian Labour Congress; Peter Regen-strief, Canadian sociologist from Rochester University; Pierre DeBellefeuille, editor of "Le Magazine Maclean" and Knowlton Nash of C.B.C. as chairman.
3.	It is not customary to require the corporation to disclose the fees paid to program participants, because of the competitive business in which it is engaged.
4.	Yes in part, Toronto Liberal meeting was taped earlier that evening; Vancouver New Democratic party meeting filmed earlier in the week, (the only party not holding a final rally April 5); filmed interviews with Halifax fishermen; film of rally of Mr. Caou-ette and filmed reports of general campaigning in Ontario, prairies and British Columbia. The remainder of the presentation was live.
5.	Seven telephone calls, no letters.


WAGE RATE FOR CARPENTERS, SHELBURNE-YARMOUTH-CLARE CONSTITUENCY
Mr. Coates: What is the minimum wage rate designated by the Department of Public Works for carpenters employed on federal government projects in the constituency of Shelburne-Yarmouth-Clare?


Hubert Badanai: A minimum rate of $1.45 per hour for carpenters has been designated by the Department of Labour for the constituency of Shelburne-Yarmouth-Clare.


DEALINGS BETWEEN EXPORT CREDITS CORP. AND EXPORT FINANCE CORP.
Mr. Cote (Chicoutimi): Does the Export Credits Insurance Corporation or any other agency of the federal government have dealings, directly or indirectly, with the Export Finance Corporation Limited and, if so (a) what is the nature and extent of such dealings (b) where is the head office of the export finance company (c) has the government any financial interest in this company (d) what is the subscribed capital and total assets of this company (e) who are its directors (f) are any shares of this company held by chartered banks and to what extent (g) how does this company finance its business activities (h) are its loans guaranteed by the export credits insurance corporation, and (i) what is the amount of money loaned by the export finance corporation, and at what rate of interest?
Answer: (a) (i) By order in council P.C. 1961-804 the Export Credits Insurance Corporation was authorized to guarantee instruments held by the Export Finance Corporation of Canada, Ltd. up to a maximum of $10 million which could be used at anytime that circumstances affecting the supply of U.S. dollars available to the Export Finance Corporation of Canada, Ltd. might so warrant. This facility has not been used to date.
(ii) On November 1, 1963, the Export Credits Insurance Corporation sold to the Export Finance Corporation of Canada, Ltd. guaranteed instruments having a face value of Can. $10,069,833.90 and U.S. $15,390,331.77.
(b)	According to the annual report of the Export Finance Corporation of Canada, Ltd. for the year ended April 30, 1963, its head office address was suite 1314, Prudential building, 4 King street west, Toronto, Ontario.
(c)	No.
(d)	According to the annual report referred to in (b) above, the subscribed capital amounts to $10 million and the total assets were $95,574,262.88.
(e)	According to the annual report for the year ended April 30, 1963 referred to in (b) above the directors are: A. F. Mayne, president; T. A. Boyles, vice president; T. L. Avison, J. W. Aylward, C. B. Clark, W. M. Currie, J. J. Denison, E. R. Ernst, J. N. Gosselin, F. S. Harrison, A. Lacasse, D. C. Langford, L. Lavoie, A. F. Lucas, R. M. Macintosh, R. Primeau.
(f)	The Export Finance Corporation of Canada, Ltd. is a private company and accordingly the Export Credits Insurance Corporation has no official knowledge of the shareholders.
(g)	The Export Credits Insurance Corporation has no official knowledge of how Export Finance Corporation of Canada, Ltd. finances its business activities.

(h)	The Export Credits Insurance Corporation has not guaranteed any of the loans of the Export Finance Corporation of Canada, Ltd.
(i)	According to the annual report referred to in (b) above the value of loans receivable by the Export Finance Corporation of Canada, Ltd. amounted to $93,314,456.58 at April 30, 1963. The corporation has no knowledge of the rate of interest charged on these loans.


OVERHAUL OF UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE ACT
Mr. Irvine: Are plans being formulated to institute a complete overhauling of the Unemployment Insurance Act and. if so, when are they to be introduced?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: Recommendations regarding amendments to the Unemployment Insurance Act as contained in the Gill report are presently under consideration and a decision will be reached in due course.


ASSISTANCE TO ASSOCIATION FOR RETARDED CHILDREN
Mr. Irvine: Has the Canadian association for retarded children made representation federally for financial assistance and, if so, what action is contemplated?


Julia Verlyn (Judy) LaMarsh: The Canadian association for retarded children is already in receipt of an annual federal grant. A request for an increase in the grant is under consideration.


POST OFFICE CONSTRUCTION, PICTOU CONSTITUENCY
Mr. MacEwan: Is it the intention of the government to build any new post offices in the constituency of Pictou, N.S., in the coming year and, if so, what are the sites for the proposed structures?


Hubert Badanai: Yes, provided suitable sites can be obtained at reasonable costs, small post office buildings will be constructed at Eureka, Hopewell, Merigonish, Scotsburn and Thorburn during the winter months.


ELECTRICAL SERVICE, PIER &quot;c&quot;, PICTOU, N.S.
Mr. MacEwan: Have tenders been called for an electrical service for pier "C" at Pictou, N.S. and, if so (a) what were the names of the tenderers and the amounts of their tenders, and (b) to whom will the contract for the work be awarded?


Hubert Badanai: Yes, (a) Universal Electric of Ottawa, Ont., $23,649; C. E. MacCarthy Ltd., Pictou, N.S., $29,950; Ferguson Industries Ltd., Pictou, N.S., $31,762. (b) The award of the contract to the low tenderer has been recommended.
Questions


DEFENCE BUDGETS OF VARIOUS COUNTRIES
Mr. Matheson: For the years 1953 and 1963, what percentage of the gross national product did the defence budget represent in each of the following NATO countries, namely:	Belgium, Canada, Denmark,
France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Turkey, United Kingdom, United States?
Answer: Defence spending as a per cent of gross national product
	1953	1961
Belgium	4.4	3.1"Canada	8.0	4.8Denmark	3.1"	2.8"France	n/a	5.5Germany	n/a	3.7"Greece	5.6	4.7Italy	n/a	n/aLuxembourg	n/a	1.1"Netherlands	5.5	n/aNorway	4.6	3.2Portugal	3.6	6.2Turkey	n/a	n/aUnited Kingdom	9.6	6.6United States	13.4	9.7" Defence expenditures	on a	fiscal year
basis.
" 1960 is the latest year available.
" Includes the Saar.
Sources: Yearbook of National Accounts Statistics, 1960; Yearbook of National Accounts Statistics, 1962; (United Nations, New York).


SHEEP SLAUGHTERED BECAUSE OF SCRAPIE DISEASE
Mr. Olson: Has the Department of Agriculture, health of animals branch, ordered the destruction of any sheep as a result of diagnosing the disease commonly called "Scrapies" during the past ten years and, if so (a) how many sheep have been slaughtered (b) how much has been paid to the sheep breeders whose sheep were slaughtered (c) how many sheep breeders have been paid and how many from each province (d) has any individual sheep breeder been paid more than once and, if so, how much in each case (e) who generally supervises the slaughter (f) does the department or anyone appointed by the department supervise the quarantine of the sheep from the date of positive diagnosis to the date of slaughter (g) how was the evaluation determined for the compensation payment?


Mr. Hays:: Yes. In the case of infected flocks, the entire flock must be destroyed, and, in addition to that, movements from that flock during the preceding 42 months, together with their immediate progeny, must be destroyed as contacts to this disease, (a) 13,397; (b) $620,210.37; (c) The number of sheep breeders paid, by provinces, during the past ten years is as follows:

Questions
Province	No. of breeders	Province	No. of breedersNewfoundland	1	Saskatchewan	15Nova Scotia	46	Alberta	128New Brunswick	16	British Columbia	44Quebec	5	Ontario	134	Total	393Manitoba	4	(d) Yes.	i	No. of sheep	Date	slaughtered	Compensation paidBreeder No. 1	Oct./59	1	$ 60.00June/60	36	1,015.00Breeder No. 2	Oet./59	17	2,735.00Sept./63	24	2,000.00Breeder No. 3	Sept./59	43	5,110.00Sept./63	11	1,025.00Breeder No. 4	Sept./54	108	8,100.00June/60	501	32,253.00Breeder No. 5	Sept./59	45	1,717.00Aug./63	34	1,410.00Breeder No. 6	Dec./59	21	1,405.00Oct./63	21	1,425.00Breeder No. 7	Sept./59	308	50,340.00July/63	158	24,050.00Breeder No. 8	Sept./59	8	830.00Aug./63	94	8,335.00Breeder No. 9	Mar./56	654	100,050.00Mar./57	44	2,000.00July/63	321	41,665.00Breeder No. 10	June/61	153	3,586.00May/62	458	10,371.00Breeder No. 11	Sept./59	7	182.00Sept./63	1	75.00Breeder No. 12	Oct./59	30	1,690.00Aug./63	1	85.00Breeder No. 13	Sept./59	19	1,490.00Sept./63	30	4,035.00(e)	A veterinary officer or officers of the health of animals branch, Department of Agriculture.(f)	Quarantined flocks are under the supervision of an officer or officers of the Department of Agriculture, and all sheep in quarantined flocks are accounted for at the time of slaughter.(g)	By evaluation committees composed of a representative nominated by the Canadian sheep breeders association, a representative of the livestock division, Department of Agriculture, and a representative of the health of animals branch, Department of Agriculture.


SEA CADET ESTABLISHMENT, POINT EDWARD NAVAL BASE
[Stage Direction]
Answer: The sea cadet summer training program will be conducted at H.M.C.S. Cornwallis, Cornwallis, N.S. in 1964.

Mr. Olson: Does the Department of Agriculture have what might be called a publicity branch or office and, if so, when was it set up?


Harry William Hays: The Department of Agriculture has an information division. This was established in 1910 under the name, at that time, of the publications branch.


PUBLICITY PERSONNEL, AGRICULTURE DEPARTMENT
Mr. Muir (Cape Breton North and Victoria): Is the sea cadet training establishment H.M.C.S. Acadia to be maintained at the Point Edward naval base and will training of cadets take place there in 1964?

Question No. 1,878-Mr. Olson:
How many persons did the Department of Agriculture employ for the purpose of preparing pamphlets, books, press releases, sound tracts for radio stations, television film strips, etc. in each of the years from 1956 to 1963?


Harry William Hays: The preparation of public information in the form of books, pamphlets, press releases, sound tracts for radio, television film strips, films, and exhibits is coordinated by the departmental information division. The following staff establishment includes all positions with the prime function of preparing such information and disseminating it to the public. They include positions in the information division excluding the libraries, the consumer and markets information sections of the production and marketing branch, the scientific information section of the research branch, the economics branch and the prairie farm rehabilitation administration.
Year Professional Clerical Total
and semi- and other including
professional classesi	support- ing classes	clerks and other and other classes1956-57	25	73	981957-58	27	73	1001958-59	28	73	1011959-60	28	72	1001960-61	30	70	1001961-62	29	71	1001962-63	35	73	108
tChief of division, information officer, editor, administrative officer and technical officer classes.


PUBLICITY EXPENDITURES, AGRICULTURE DEPARTMENT
Mr. Olson: What was the total expenditure for personnel, office space, tape recorders, cameras, paper printing and other equipment and material used for publicity by the Department of Agriculture in each of the years from 1956 to 1963?
Questions


Harry William Hays: The following are totals of the major items of expenditure in the departmental information program. They include costs of personnel whose prime function is to prepare information and disseminate it to the public; printing of books, pamphlets, reports, scientific articles, acts and regulations; cameras, films, radio tapes, and other materials, supplies and equipment used in the information program. There have been no direct charges for office space, this facility having been made available by the Department of Public Works. 1956-57, $649,284;	1957-58,
$744,713; 1958-59, $752,979; 1959-60, $811,668; 1960-61, $796,162; 1961-62, $840,848; 1962-63, $920,566.


PUBLICITY PRINTING COST, AGRICULTURE DEPARTMENT
Mr. Olson: What was the total cost of books, pamphlets, and other publications for the purpose of publicity prepared and printed by the queen's printer for the Department of Agriculture in each of the years from 1956 to 1963?


Harry William Hays: The total cost to the Department of Agriculture of books, pamphlets and other publications for the department's information program prepared and printed by the queen's printer is as follows: 1956-57, $203,578; 1957-58, $206,840; 1958-59, $213,468; 1959-60, $260,200; 1960-61, $244,650; 1961-62, $251,873; 1962-63, $289,510.
These figures do not include any costs incurred by the queen's printer for departmental publications sold by that agency.


TRANSPORTATION EXPENSES, OFFICE OF AGRICULTURE MINISTER
Mr. Olson: What was the total cost to the Department of Agriculture for transportation provided for the Minister of Agriculture, the minister's executive assistant, and other employees in the minister's office for each of the years from 1956 to 1963?


Harry William Hays: Fiscal	Executive	Other	Year	Minister	Assistant	Employees	Total$	$	$	$1962-63	708.25	2,564.21	4,291.65	7,564.111961-62	5,439.80	5,482.50	2,386.73	13,309.031960-61	2,128.65	1,451.65	2,354.60	5,934.901959-60	3,302.00*	1,199.79	13.95	4,515.741958-59	4,024.00*	229.65	538.15	4,791.801957-58	2,999.00*	1956-57	3,945.00*	
other travel expenses as well as transporta-*These amounts appear in the public tion since detailed information is not now accounts for the respective years and include available.

Questions
No details are now available concerning expenses for executive assistant and other employees for the years 1956-57 and 1957-58.


PRESS RELEASES, AGRICULTURE DEPARTMENT
Mr. Olson: How many official press releases were issued by the Department of Agriculture in each of the years from 1956 to 1963 inclusive?


Harry William Hays: The number of official press releases issued by the Department of Agriculture in each of the years from 1956 to 1963 was: 1956, 276 releases; 1957, 310 releases; 1958, 339 releases; 1959, 287 releases; 1960, 324 releases; 1961, 422 releases; 1962, 387 releases 1963 (to Dec. 13), 267 releases.
minute political broadcasts on June 11, 1962; one at 7:30 p.m. on behalf of the Liberal party and the other at 7:45 p.m. on behalf of the Progressive Conservative party. During the latter program, Mr. John Fisher, then special assistant to the then prime minister was interviewed.
2.	No, the program in question was included in the free time then allocated by the network to political parties.
3.	The board received no complaints regarding political programs carried by C.T.V. network on June 11, 1962.


PRAIRIE FARM ASSISTANCE FUND PAYMENTS
[Stage Direction]
Question No. 1,891-Mr. Francis:

Mr. Rideout: 1.	Was the board of broadcast governors aware of the television program, on the C.T.V. network, of June 11, 1962, when John Fisher, then special assistant to the then prime minister was interviewed?
2.	Was this program additional to the free time awarded to political parties during the course of election campaigns?
3.	Were any complaints lodged with the board of broadcast governors either by telephone or letter regarding the production of this program?
1.	How much money was paid from the prairie farm assistance fund, by province, during the calendar years 1953 to 1963 inclusive?
2.	How much money was contributed to the prairie farm assitsance fund, for each of the above years, from consolidated revenue fund and from the one per cent levy on grain marketed?


Harry William Hays: 1. Payments made to farmers under the Prairie Farm Assistance Act are made from the prairie farm emergency fund and records are kept on the basis of the crop year which is from August 1st to July 31st. The amounts paid, by province in each


John Whitney Pickersgill: 1. I am informed	that the crop year	from August 1,	1953 to July 3C.T.V. television	network carried	two 15 1963 are as follows:-	Crop Year	Manitoba	Saskatchewan	Alberta	British Columbi$	$	$	$1953-54	619,863.25	1,143,177.50	1,007,525.25	Nil1954-55	5,259,645.50	21,888,528.50	5,781,922.00	83,630.751955-56	2,305,548.50	1,290,677.00	1,304,682.25	147,567.001956-57	637,310.00	627,083.00	964,456.00	7,479.001957-58	1,720,315.00	9,917,414.50	5,806,718.50	374,340.001958-59	1,184,970.50	15,026,425.00	7,002,685.50	135,330.501959-60	1,926,838.50	14,424,376.00	5,395,541.00	284,802.001960-61	666,508.50	4,559,348.50	5,696,956.50	106,302.501961-62	7,420,856.50	36,970,775.35	9,678,947.00	Nil1962-63	815,068.00	6,865,448.50	7,781,239.00	17,574.0022,556,924.25	112,713,253.85	50,420,673.00	1,157,025.75One Per Cent	ConsolidatedCrop Year	Levy	Revenue Fund1953-54	$7,987,031.77	Nil1954-55	5,533,119.63	$27,480,607.121955-56	6,239,900.77	Nil1956-57	6,205,862.54	Nil1957-58	6,114,474.50	11,704,313.501958-59	6,674,000.20	16,675,411.301959-60	6,326,923.98	15,704,633.521960-61	6,941,094.41	4,088,021.591961-62	6,839,498.57	47,231,080.281962-63 	8,614,424.13	6,864,905.37



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. McIntosh: 1.	What has been the cost to the federal treasury of all travelling allowances and transportation expenses for each minister travelling outside of Canada between April 22, 1963 and September 29, 1963?
2.	What has been the cost to the federal treasury of all travelling allowances and transportation expenses for ministerial staff who accompanied their respective ministers outside Canada between April 22 and September 29, 1963?
3.	What was the purpose of each trip?

Motions for Papers
CITIZENSHIP CERTIFICATES TO CHINESE	MOTIONS FOR PAPERS

Question No. 1,346-Mr. Howard:
1.	For each month since July 1, 1962, how many, if any, certificates of citizenship have been granted to people of Chinese origin?
2.	With respect to the period of time which elapses between the examination for citizenship before a judge and the issuance of the said certificate, what period of time lapsed with respect to each of the said people of Chinese origin expressed by groups in units of weeks and/or years as the case may be?


CAFETERIAS FOR CIVIL SERVANTS
Mr. Howard: 1.	Do employees in the public service of Canada, otherwise referred to as civil servants, have access to all cafeterias in government buildings?
2.	If any employees are excluded from some cafeterias, which cafeterias are involved and, for what reasons?
Return tabled.


ALLOWANCES TO MEMBERS UNDER RETIREMENT ACT
Mr. Boutin: 1.	How many former members receive an allowance under the Members of Parliament Retiring Allowances Act?
2.	What is the name of each of these members?
3.	For how many years was each a member?
4.	What amount does each receive under the Members of Parliament Retiring Allowances Act?


TEMPORARY GOVERNMENT BUILDINGS, OTTAWA-HULL
Mr. Lalulippe: 1.	How many government buildings in Ottawa-Hull are considered temporary at the present time?
2.	What is the approximate value of each of these buildings?
3.	When is it expected that the construction of new buildings will be undertaken?


CHECKS ON LETTER CARRIERS
Mr. Mather: 1.	Is there a Post Office Department directive to the effect that unknown checks or spying be done on letter carriers?
2.	Do petty and unintentional discrepancies sometimes result in salary reductions for letters carriers?
3.	Has the employee a right of appeal from such punishment?


MAIL ROUTE TENDERS, NEW BRUNSWICK
Mr. Flemming (Vicioria-Carleton): 1.	In connection with the mail route from Woodstock, N.B., to Edmundston, N.B. (a) what date were tenders last called (b) who submitted tenders and at what prices (c) who was successful and at what contract price?
2.	In connection with the mail route from Mc-Adam, N.B. to Woodstock, N.B. (a) what date were tenders last called (b) who submitted tenders and at what prices (c) who was successful and at what contract price?



TELECOMMUNICATIONS CONTRACT FOR RADIO STATIONS

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 179-Mr. Cowan:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of all correspondence dated August 15, 1962 to December 1, 1962, between the government of Canada or any minister, department or agency thereof and the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, the Canadian National Railways, the Canadian Pacific Railways and the Bell Telephone Company of Canada, respecting the contract for telecommunications for the approximately 195 radio stations, the previous ten year contract having been replaced by a new contract effective October 1, 1962.
George James McIlraith: Mr. Speaker, this motion calls, among other things, for correspondence between Canadian National Railways and the government of Canada. Succeeding governments have always taken the position that such correspondence should not be produced in the house. I have discussed the matter with the hon. member. The information he is seeking is contained in a letter bearing a date outside the dates embodied in the motion, a joint letter from the two railways. There is no objection to producing that document. If the motion could be withdrawn I would be glad to produce it. I believe it covers the subject matter of the hon. member's motion, and this would not raise any difficult legal questions.


Mr. Speaker:: Is the hon. member satisfied to withdraw his motion?


Ralph Bronson Cowan: Yes, Mr. Speaker.
Order discharged and motion withdrawn.



CONSTRUCTION IN CANADA OF BAC-111 PLANES

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 181-Mr. Gregoire:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all correspondence, telegrams and documents exchanged between the Minister of Industry or any of the officers of his department and the president or any of the officers or employees of the British Aircraft Corporation concerning the total or partial construction of BAC-lll's in Canada.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 182-Mr. Gregoire:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all correspondence, telegrams or documents exchanged between the Minister of Transport or any of the officers of his department and the president or any of the officers or employees of the Com-pagnie Sud-Aviation of France concerning the total or partial construction of Caravelles in Canada.
George James McIlraith: There is no such correspondence, and I therefore ask that the motion be dropped.

Motions for Papers


Mr. Gregoire:: If there is no correspondence that is all right, Mr. Speaker.
Order discharged and motion withdrawn.



T.C.A.-REPORT RESPECTING NEW AIRCRAFT

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 183-Mr. Gregoire:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of the report of the engineers, experts, technicians or advisers of Trans-Canada Air Lines concerning the choice of a new medium range aircraft by Trans-Canada Air Lines.
George James McIlraith: Mr. Speaker, this motion asks for a copy of the report of the engineers, experts, technicians and advisers of Trans-Canada Air Lines, which is a document prepared on behalf of Trans-Canada Air Lines for their own board of directors, which is then submitted by the board of directors to the government after it has been dealt with. There has always been an objection taken by succeeding governments to producing this kind of document. Therefore I ask the hon. member to withdraw the motion or otherwise to have it transferred for debate.


Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Speaker, on that motion, I would like the house to vote with regard to the tabling of this return.


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member for Lapointe.


Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. I wonder why the Minister of Transport (Mr. Mcllraith) wishes that this return be transferred for debate, if he does not want-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. Under the rules of the house this matter has been transferred for debate. The rules are established by all hon. members, not by the Chair.



TRANSPORT DEPARTMENT


[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 184
Gilles Grégoire: That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all letters, documents and telegrams exchanged between the Minister of Transport or any of the officers or employees of his department and the Canadair company concerning the construction of a new medium range aircraft for Trans-Canada Air Lines.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 185-Mr. Gregoire:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all letters, documents and telegrams exchanged between the Minister of Transport or any of the officers or employees of his department and the

de Havilland Company concerning the construction of a new medium range aircraft for Trans-Canada Air Lines.
George James McIlraith: There is no correspondence covered by this motion, Mr. Speaker.
Order discharged and motion withdrawn.



CANADAIR


[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 186-Mr. Gregoire:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all letters, documents and telegrams exchanged between the Minister of Industry or any of the officers or employees of his department and the Canadair Company concerning the construction of a new medium range aircraft for Trans-Canada Air Lines.
Mr. Drury:: Mr. Speaker, I have spoken to the hon. member for Lapointe, and with the understanding that this does not call for the production of privileged documents we have no objection to the mention.


Mr. Speaker:: Subject to the reservation stated by the minister, is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the said motion?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 187-Mr. Gregoire:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all letters, documents and telegrams exchanged between the Minister of Industry or any of the officers or employees of his department and the de Havilland Company concerning the construction of a new medium range aircraft for Trans-Canada Air Lines.
Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: I have discussed this motion also with the hon. member for Lapointe, and on the understanding that I will provide him with the details of the Canadian content in the construction of the DC-9 he has agreed to withdraw this motion.
Order discharged and motion withdrawn.



SUD-AVIATION-PRODUCTION OF PLANES IN CANADA

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 188-Mr. Gregoire:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all correspondence, telegrams and documents exchanged between the Minister of Industry or any of the officers of his department and the president or any of the officers or employees of the Compa-gnie Sud-Aviation of France concerning the total or partial production of Caravelles in Canada.
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 189-Mr. Gregoire:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all correspondence, telegrams and documents exchanged between the Minister of Industry or any

of the officers of his department and the president or any of the officers or employees of the Douglas Aircraft Company of the United States concerning the total or partial construction of DC9's in Canada.
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 190-Mr. Gregoire:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all correspondence, telegrams and documents exchanged between the Minister of Transport or any of the officers of his department and the president or any of the officers or employees of the British Aircraft Corporation concerning the total or partial construction of BAC-lll's in Canada.
George James McIlraith: There is no such correspondence as is asked for in this motion.
Order discharged and motion withdrawn.



DOUGLAS AIRCRAFT CO.    PRODUCTION OF PLANES IN CANADA

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 191-Mr. Gregoire:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all correspondence, telegrams and documents exchanged between the Minister of Transport or any of the officers of his department and the president or any of the officers or employees of the Douglas Aircraft Company of the United States concerning the total or partial construction of DC9's in Canada.
George James McIlraith: There is no such correspondence as is asked for in this motion.
Order discharged and motion withdrawn.



CONSTRUCTION OF AIRCRAFT FOR T.C.A.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 192-Mr. Gregoire:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all correspondence, telegrams or documents exchanged between the Minister of Transport or any of the officers of his department and the president or any of the officers or employees of Trans-Canada Air Lines concerning the total or partial construction of a new medium range aircraft for Trans-Canada Air Lines.
George James McIlraith: For the same reasons that I indicated in connection with notice of motion No. 183 I must ask that this notice of motion be transferred for debate.


Mr. Speaker:: Transferred for debate.



T.C.A.-CHOICE OF NEW AIRCRAFT

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 193-Mr. Gregoire:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all correspondence, telegrams or documents exchanged between the Minister of Transport or any of the officers of his department and the president or any of the officers or employees of Trans-Canada Air Lines concerning the choice of a new medium range aircraft by Trans-Canada Air Lines.
George James McIlraith: For the same reason I must ask that this motion be transferred for debate.


Mr. Speaker:: Transferred for debate.
Motions for Papers



COMPENSATION FOR SHEEP DESTROYED

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 194-Mr. Madill:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all statements or records containing names of all owners or other persons to whom compensation has been paid since the 21st of April, 1963, for sheep suffering from scrapies which had to be destroyed, and the amounts paid respectively to each of such owners of other persons.
Mr. Beer:: This notice of motion for the production of papers, No. 194, by the hon. member for Dufferin-Simcoe requests information with respect to compensation paid to owners of sheep which were destroyed on account of scrapie since April 21, 1963. An answer has been given today to question No. 1,873 by the hon. member for Medicine Hat, giving information with respect to scrapie compensation payments over the last 10 years. The answer to question No. 1,873 does not, however, list the names of the individual farmers to whom compensation has been paid.
It has not been the practice to disclose publicly the names of people who have been ordered to have animals slaughtered under various disease eradication programs, since it could be considered by some as a reflection on the health status of their herds and because the circumstances in many cases are ones over which they have no control.
While there are these reservations about the desirability of disclosing names of people, I recognize that public expenditures are involved and, if the hon. member insists, the information will be provided in the form he has indicated in his motion. However, the hon. member for Dufferin-Simcoe might wish to consult the information which has now been provided in answer to question No. 1,873 to determine whether this contains information of the type which he requires. In the meantime, I suggest the hon. member may wish to allow his motion to stand, or on that basis he might wish to withdraw his motion.


Mr. Diefenbaker:: It is a principle of responsible government that information such as this should be provided.


Mr. Speaker:: I regret that I did not hear the Leader of the Opposition; another hon. gentleman was speaking at the same time.


John George Diefenbaker: I stated that it is a principle of responsible government that this information should be provided. Indeed, it is provided each year in the public accounts and in the circumstances I would ask that the motion be called in the regular way.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Transferred for debate.


Bruce Silas Beer: It is my opinion that the hon. member for Dufferin-Simcoe consented to withdraw.

Motions for Papers


Some hon. Members:: No.


Mr. Speaker:: Under the rules of the house I must put the motion.


Bruce Silas Beer: I ask that the motion stand.


Mr. Speaker:: Transferred for debate.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, there was no request that it stand for debate. There was a request that it stand, and we have strong objections to this being stood in view of the attitude taken by the Minister of Agriculture. I ask you to call the yeas and the nays.


Mr. Speaker:: I think I should point out to the house the wording of standing order No. 47, which reads as follows:
Notices of motions for the production of papers shall be placed on the order paper under the heading "Notices of motions for the production of papers". All such notices, when called, shall be forthwith disposed of; but if on any such motion a debate be desired by the member proposing it or by a minister of the crown, the motion will be transferred by the clerk to the order of "Notices of motions (papers)".
Under the circumstances, we have had a request to transfer the motion for debate by the Secretary of State-


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I would be quite prepared either to allow the motion to stand or to have it transferred for debate, whichever course appealed to the hon. member who is moving the motion.


Gordon Harvey Aiken: Mr. Speaker, you were on your feet putting the motion, and I think we should proceed once the motion is put.


Mr. Pearson:: The motion has not been put.


Mr. Speaker:: I must reach a decision. There is a request from the Secretary of State to transfer it for debate; consequently the motion is transferred for debate.



PRAIRIE AIR SERVICE


[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 195-Mr. Olson:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of all correspondence, telegrams, or documents exchanged between the Minister of Transport or any of the officers of his department, the president or any of the employees of Trans-Canada Air Lines, and any officers or employees of TransAir Limited respecting the transfer of the southern prairie route between, Regina and Calgary generally; and specifically all correspondence, telegrams, documents, agreements, etc., respecting transfer of aircraft equipment and other operating facilities from Trans-Canada Air Lines to TransAir Limited.
He said: I ask that this motion stand.
Motion stands.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 196-Mr. Diefenbaker:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of all questionnaires that have been sent or delivered to seamen employed on the Canadian side of the great lakes by the board of trustees of the Canadian maritime unions or by a public relations official or person on behalf of the said board wherein information regarding the personal affairs, employment, etc., of the seamen is requested.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 197-Mr. Webb:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all correspondence, telegrams or documents exchanged between the Postmaster General or any of the officers of his department and any other person concerning the transfer of the mail contract for rural route No. 3, Norwood, Ontario, during the year 1963.
Azellus Denis: I have no objection to the adoption of this motion and the tabling of all official correspondence.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 198-Mr. Webb:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all correspondence, telegrams or documents exchanged between the Postmaster General or any of the officers of his department and any other person concerning the transfer of the post office at Birdsall, Ontario, in the year 1963.
Azellus Denis: There is no objection, Mr. Speaker, to the adoption of this motion and the tabling of all official correspondence.


Mr. Rheaume:: Could we have an explanation of what the Postmaster General means by "official correspondence"?


Mr. Speaker:: At this time there is no debate under the rules of the house.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 199-Mr. Langlois:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will clause to be laid before this house a copy of all telegrams, letters and other correspondence exchanged between different mining companies situated in the Thetford Mines, Black Lake and Coleraine municipalities, and the Minister of Trade and Commerce, his deputy minister or assistant since 1950 concerning the establishment of secondary industries or manufactures in the said localities.
Mr. Pepin:: Mr. Speaker, there has been no correspondence with those municipalities.


Mr. Langlois:: I withdraw my motion.
Order discharged and motion withdrawn.



[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 200-Mr. Langlois:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of all telegrams, letters and other correspondence exchanged between the municipalities of Thetford Mines, Black Lake and Coleraine and the Minister of Trade and Commerce, his deputy minister or assistant since 1950 concerning the establishment of secondary industries or manufactures in the said localities.
He said: I withdraw this motion also.
Order discharged and motion withdrawn.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 201-Mr. Coales:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all correspondence received by the minister or any of the officials of the Department of Finance, from the maritime lumber bureau of Amherst, N.S., as well as copies of the replies forwarded by the minister, or his officials, to the maritime lumber bureau since September 1,	1963.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 202-Mr. Kennedy:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all correspondence received by the minister, or any of the officials of the Department of Forestry, from the maritime lumber bureau of Amherst, N.S., as well as copies of the replies forwarded by the minister, or his officials, to the maritime lumber bureau since September 1, 1963.
Motion agreed to.
Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege. The Secretary of State (Mr. Pickersgill) did not respect this morning the undertaking he took last Wednesday before the house when he stated, as reported on page 5695 of Hansard:
If that is agreeable to the hon. gentleman, we will not transfer these for debate-
Now, three motions were transferred for debate this morning whereas we would have liked motion No. 183 to be put to a vote. [Text]


John Whitney Pickersgill: I am afraid I did not hear the page reference given by the hon. gentleman.


Gilles Grégoire: It is page 6024 in the French version.
Question of Privilege


John Whitney Pickersgill: I do not happen to have a copy of Hansard in French. Perhaps the hon. gentleman could assist me by telling me where it is in the English copy.


Gilles Grégoire: I do not have an English copy.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Perhaps, sir, the hon.
member and I might agree to defer this matter until we can get our documents together. I certainly want to say at once that I am not conscious-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


John Whitney Pickersgill: -of having said that.
However, there were one or two things I said last night that perhaps this morning I would not have said in quite the same way. I assure the hon. gentleman I had no intention whatever of giving the impression-


Gilles Grégoire: I am speaking of the commitment of the Secretary of State when he said that.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I have found the passage to which the hon. member refers. Apparently it is at page 5695, and the amendment reads:
Mr. Speaker, the position I take, and the position I stand on, is that there must be a conference between the two ministers, and an endeavour will be made by the government to give all the information that is properly producible under the rules.
We have done that:
If that is acceptable to the hon. gentleman we will not transfer these for debate-
That is, all the items that are producible under the rules, and the only motions that were transferred for debate this morning were those asking for information that is not producible under the rules because it has always been understood to be privileged. It does not seem to me, therefore, that the hon. gentleman has any question of privilege on this matter.


Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Speaker-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I believe the discussion is complete on this matter, and there is no question of privilege.


Mr. Robert C. Coates (Cumberland):: Mr. Speaker, I draw attention to the fact that the Minister of Veterans Affairs has refused to answer question No. 1,558 which has stood on the order paper since October 30, although he has informed me of the answer, which indicates that he has awarded the contract in question to someone other than the low bidder and has refused to reaward it to the low bidder as I requested.


Some hon. Members:: Shame.

Question of Privilege


John George Diefenbaker: I should like to reserve my right to speak on the question of privilege relating to the statement made by the Secretary of State, when he said that the motions that were transferred today were recognized as asking for information to which the house is not entitled. I am going to come back to that because under the ruling made earlier today when we asked for the names of those to whom payments had been made, if the government can get away from answering by simply saying the motion is transferred for debate then this house might as well close down.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I am quite sure the hon. gentleman did not wish to misinterpret what I said. I was referring to certain motions that had been made by the hon. member for Lapointe, and I was not making any general reference.


John George Diefenbaker: You said all motions.


John Whitney Pickersgill: No, Mr. Speaker; X think it is generally understood in the house that the member who is speaking is supposed to know what he intended to say, at any rate.


John George Diefenbaker: If he is conscious.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Both the right hon. gentleman and I have occasionally had slips of the tongue in this house. I do not think we ought to try to make anything of that. What I intended to say was this, that those motions of the hon. member for Lapointe which were transferred for debate were motions which asked for documents which are normally not produced by a government.
In so far as the motion of the hon. member for Dufferin-Simcoe is concerned, the hon. member for Peel pointed out that that information was producible and would be produced if it were insisted upon. This will be found in his statement. These were payments out of public funds, and if there was any insistance the names of those persons to whom they were paid be given to the house, we were prepared to give them. He wanted to have the matter transferred for debate because he wanted to debate the request since he did not think it would be fair to give these names to the public. This was the reason for the transfer. I may say, sir, that does not deny the house anything, because the Minister of Agriculture's estimates will be up today or tomorrow and the whole matter of these payments to the sheep farmers can be debated on those estimates.


John George Diefenbaker: I am not going to continue the argument, except to say that if the government is asked a question for information that is produceable and should be

answered, and takes recourse in transferring the motion, then this house might as well close down because we will never get the answers to the questions that we ask. If I misinterpreted the Secretary of State I can only say I understood him to say all the motions were transferred today. He has made it perfectly clear that he did not have the motion of the hon. member for Dufferin-Simcoe in mind, and when the Minister of Agriculture gets to his estimates he will have some opportunity to answer the questions that have been denied the house in the proper way.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, now I want to ask the Minister of Finance, in view of the continued rise in the cost of living what action is the government going to take in this regard and-


Hon. Roger Teillel (Minisier of Veterans Affairs):: Mr. Speaker-


John George Diefenbaker: -I ask him whether or not-


Roger-Joseph Teillet: Mr. Speaker-


John George Diefenbaker: -the increase in the amount of Canadian money-


Roger-Joseph Teillet: There is a question of privilege before the house, I believe.


Mr. Speaker:: May I point out I did not know that the minister wished to raise a question of privilege. Is it a question of privilege that the minister wants to raise?


Roger-Joseph Teillet: I did not raise the question of privilege. I believe one of the hon. members from the other side did.


Mr. Speaker:: May I suggest, if it is not a question of privilege, that we allow the right hon. Leader of the Opposition to finish his question.


Roger-Joseph Teillet: I understood the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Coates) to have raised the question of privilege. I attempted to get up in reply, and I was cut off by the Leader of the Opposition with another question.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I immediately rise to say you directed me. I do not take my direction from the Minister of Veterans Affairs.


Roger-Joseph Teillet: May I still pose the question, was that a question of privilege or was it not? Will the hon. member tell the house-


Mr. Maclnnis:: It is up to the Speaker.


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member for
Cumberland rose on a question of privilege-


Some hon. Members:: Sit down.


Mr. Slefanson:: He has no manners. He doesn't know any better.


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. I am sure we will make much faster progress if we now allow the minister to reply, if he wants to, on the particular question of privilege raised by the hon. member for Cumberland and, if I may, I will ask the Leader of the Opposition to suspend his question for a short time.


Roger-Joseph Teillet: Mr. Speaker, the answer to the hon. gentleman is that he knows perfectly well there were technical difficulties with both the contractors involved. He has been supplied with all the information by officials of the department, and I have attempted to reach him myself in the last few days in order to request from him what his conclusions were after discussing it with the officials. I will be glad to discuss this with the hon. gentleman at any time.


Mr. L. J. Pigeon (Jolielle-L'Assompiion-Monicalm):: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege. Is it the intention of the government house leader to reply to starred question 1,806 this week of next Monday?


Lester Bowles Pearson: That is not a question of privilege.


Mr. Yvon Dupuis (Parliamentary Secretary to Secretary of State):: Mr. Speaker, I made a mistake when I asked a while ago that question No. 1,778 be made an order for return. I would like this order to be withdrawn and the question to remain on the order paper.


Mr. Speaker:: Does the house give consent?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.



THE CANADIAN ECONOMY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I started off to ask the Minister of Finance a question, and it has now got into serial form. It has to do with the very serious increase in the cost of living. I want to ask the minister what action the government intends to take in this regard, and whether the increase in the Canadian money supply in total currency in chartered bank accounts which, since February 24 has increased by $1,345,000,000 has anything to do with it and is a contributing factor to this very serious increase in the cost of living.
Inquiries of the Ministry


Hon. Waller L. Gordon (Minister of Finance):: Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition has raised a serious question and I would like to be allowed to give a full reply because of the implications that it has.
First of all I will deal with the point about monetary policy. As I have already informed the house, the monetary policy followed in Canada is that which the government and the Bank of Canada consider to be in the best interests of the Canadian economy. This policy is directed and has, I think, been successfully directed to encouraging domestic economic expansion and achieving balance in our international transactions.
Under the policy which has been followed, the money supply in Canada has increased to meet the growing needs of an expanding economy. During the 12 month period ending in November the total currency and bank deposits in Canada, that is the total money supply, has increased by 8.6 per cent, while the privately held money supply has increased by 6.9 per cent. It may be of interest to hon. members to point out that the corresponding increases for the United States over the same period were 7.3 per cent for the total of currency and bank deposits and 8.4 per cent for the privately held money supply, so defined.
The increase in the total currency and bank deposits in Canada over the past two years has amounted to an aggregate figure of 12.9 per cent, which compares with a 15.0 per cent increase in the United States.
In judging the appropriateness of developments in the money supply one must of course take into account a wide variety of factors, including the movement of employment and production, the amount of unused capacity, the state of the balance of payments and so on. The movement of prices is clearly an object of continuous concern, and the monetary authorities must always be alert to upward pressures on the cost of living.
In this respect the recent Canadian experience has compared favourably with most other countries, particularly when account is taken of the devaluation of the Canadian dollar which, though it was helpful in restoring our international competitive position, inevitably had the effect of raising some import prices. Over the recent 12 month period for which information is available the consumer price index rose by 1.6 per cent in Canada, which compares with 1.1 per cent in the United States, 1.3 per cent in the United Kingdom, 6.4 per cent in France and 2.0 per cent in Germany.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, the minister had no notice of the question but of course he realized this was a matter that would be
6064	HOUSE OF
Inquiries of the Ministry raised. I now ask him this, and I am quoting from the New York Times. Have government treasury officials admitted that the currency expansion in Canada is a definite factor of monetary policy, and that the reason for the increase is the agreement that was entered into, a gentlemen's agreement with the United States, to hold down interest rates closely to United States levels, and that that agreement with the United States is linked with the billion dollar increase in the Canadian money supply?


Walter Lockhart Gordon: Mr. Speaker, I was ready for the question last week because the article to which the Leader of the Opposition refers appeared in the New York Times of December 8. I have given an answer which I think deals completely with the article and the points made in the article. I do not think there is anything more to be added that would be helpful.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I rise to ask a supplementary question. Is it a fact that the Canadian government has a gentlemen's agreement with the United States; that, when Canada was granted exemption from the proposed interest equalization tax on new capital issues, the government authorities entered into a gentlemen's agreement to maintain Canadian interest rates at the United States level so there would be no undue incentive for a heavy inflow of United States dollars into this country?


Walter Lockhart Gordon: On the contrary, Mr. Speaker. It has been the policy of the government and the Bank of Canada, working together, to keep interest rates in Canada at the lowest possible level, and I hope we will be able to continue to do this. The spread between interest rates in Canada and the United States has been narrowed substantially and it will be the policy of the government to keep that spread as narrow as we can in the months ahead.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, that still is not an answer. Is there such a gentlemen's agreement?


Walter Lockhart Gordon: Mr. Speaker, I started my last answer by saying "on the contrary". If I can put it in more simple language and more directly, the answer is no.


John George Diefenbaker: That is it. Good.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Very disappointing, is it not? [Later:]


Mr. Maurice Cote (Chicoutimi):: Mr. Speaker, following the questions asked by 

the right hon. Leader of the Opposition, I wish to direct a supplementary question to the Minister of Finance. Can he tell us why there is such an increase in the money supply and why inflation has reached such a level in Canada, even though Social Credit is not in power and the Liberals expressed such fears about inflation?


Walter Lockhart Gordon: Perhaps it is one of the reasons, Mr. Speaker. I do not wish to say anything that would be offensive to my hon. friend, but I am surprised that he has asked the question. I thought he would perhaps compliment the government.


John George Diefenbaker: Debt free money.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a further question to the Minister of Finance. In the answer he gave a moment ago to the hon. member for Chicoutimi he said he could not understand why that hon. member would ask the question regarding an increase in credit, and that he should be approving it. What did he mean by that? Is this the implementation of the action of the government members in voting in November, 1962 for debt free money as advocated by Social Credit?



REQUEST FOR INQUIRY INTO PRICE INCREASES

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. W. B. Nesbitt (Oxford):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a supplementary question which I would have directed to the Minister of Justice, but in his absence I will direct it to the Prime Minister. In view of the report in today's Globe and Mail that the price of bread has been increased by one cent or more across Ontario, would the Prime Minister request the Minister of Justice to have the appropriate officials of his department investigate the matter? It is a well known fact that bakeries tender on contracts for government institutions at 12\ cents or 13 cents a loaf.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, I will discuss the matter with the Minister of Justice, who will be here tomorrow.



TRANSPORT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day;
Mr. T. C. Douglas (Burnaby-Coquitlam):: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the

Inquiries of the Ministry Minister of Transport. Could the house have the Minister of Transport. I wonder whether the assurance that the present freeze on the minister can supply the house with the applications for rail line abandonment will details of the fantastic, unrealistic and ridic-be continued until the legislation which is ulous estimate of $62 million conceived by contemplated to deal with the recommenda- his department for remedial works made tions of the MacPherson commission is before necessary by the construction of a bridge at the house at the next session?	Three Rivers.


George James McIlraith: Mr. Speaker, the arrangement with the railways was made on the expectation that the legislation would be dealt with before the end of this year, but there is no reason to anticipate any difficulty whatever in having the freeze continued until the legislation is dealt with in the early part of next year.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: A supplementary question. In view of the fact that this legislation may take some time and although the minister does not contemplate any difficulty, am I to take it that the minister is giving the house the assurance that the government will take steps to see that none of these applications are proceeded with until the legislation is dealt with?


George James McIlraith: Yes, Mr. Speaker, and I was also seeking to point out that there was no ground for the fears inherent in the hon. member's question.



FINANCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. R. N. Thompson (Red Deer):: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance. Has the minister received a petition from a certain group of individuals who are proposing to establish a new bank that is to be known as the bank of western Canada?


Walter Lockhart Gordon: Mr. Speaker, I did have a visit from Mr. James Coyne and Mr. Stevens-


Mr. Fisher:: Who?


Walter Lockhart Gordon: I think the name was Stevens-some days ago, last week I believe, saying that they were contemplating making an application for a charter for a new Canadian bank. They have not made an application. When they do I am sure it will be done in the usual way and it will be dealt with according to the procedures laid down in the Bank Act.



BRIDGES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Leon Balcer (Three Rivers):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to


George James McIlraith: I think that could be done, Mr. Speaker. I think the hon. member as the former minister is probably familiar with the situation as it was indicated in the files in the early part of this year.


Léon Balcer: It was an amount of $7 million.



LABOUR RELATIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Frank Howard (Skeena):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Fisheries, and may I precede it by saying I know the minister has had an almost minute by minute interest in this matter. I should like to ask him whether he has yet been able to get in touch with Hon. Mr. Peterson, minister of labour for British Columbia, and whether any decision has been reached about appointing an arbitrator to replace Mr. Justice Dryer?


Hon. H. J. Robichaud (Minister of Fisheries):: Mr. Speaker, I was able to get in touch with Mr. Peterson on Monday, and yesterday at noon we made the announcement that Mr. Justice Nathan Nemetz had agreed to act as arbitrator to replace Mr. Justice Dryer.



DEFENCE PRODUCTION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. D. S. Harkness (Calgary North):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Minister of Industry if he has an answer to the question I asked him yesterday about the C.P.A. repair facilities at Calgary.


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: Mr. Speaker, may I say in answer to yesterday's question that the contract with C.P.A. in Calgary has not been cancelled, nor has the company been notified yet that it will be.


Douglas Scott Harkness: A supplementary question. Does the government intend to continue to give contracts to this company for the coming year when the present one runs out at the end of March?


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: The answer to that, Mr. Speaker, is no.

Inquiries of the Ministry


Douglas Scott Harkness: May I ask the minister whether he is aware that over 400 people will lose their jobs as a result of this. What arrangements, if any, are being made to provide alternative employment for these men? It is the same situation as the repair facilities at Winnipeg, except this is a much more serious case because they are being closed out entirely.


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: Mr. Speaker, the reason for the delay in notification is an endeavour to work out in conjunction with the company an adequate, satisfactory method of phasing out the work and to ensure that there will be alternative employment for those who are being released from the C.P.A. facility.


Douglas Scott Harkness: May I ask the minister where or how this alternative employment is to be supplied? Are these men to be moved to other repair shops or are jobs of some other type to be provided for them?


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: Mr. Speaker, if I could provide the answer to that we would not need future discussions.



COMPLAINTS RESPECTING TREATMENT OF ARSENAL EMPLOYEES

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Robert Beaule (Quebec East):: Mr. Speaker, I would have liked to direct a question to the Minister of Industry and defence production, but since he is not here, I shall direct it to the Associate Minister of National Defence.
As regards the unfair position of the employees of the Valcartier arsenal, where certain materials have seemingly gone out for purposes other than national defence, does the minister intend to order that an investigation be made by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police so as to clarify this situation?


Hon. Lucien Cardin (Associaie Minister of National Defence):: All I can do is to take this question as notice.


Jean Robert Beaulé: Mr. Speaker, I have already directed that question to the Minister of Industry, but his answer was not satisfactory. I ask that an investigation be made in that regard.
Mr. Speaker, since the Minister of Industry is in the house, I wish now to put to him the question which I directed a while ago to the Associate Minister of National Defence concerning the unfair situation of the personnel at the Valcartier arsenal. It seems that some materials have disappeared at the arsenal and are not used for national defence purposes. Could the Minister of Industry inform
(Mr. Drury.]
the house whether he will launch an investigation through the R.C.M.P. concerning this matter.


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: Mr. Speaker, I will be happy to inquire into this.



HEALTH AND WELFARE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. P. B. Rynard (Simcoe East):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of National Health and Welfare but in her absence I will address it to her parliamentary secretary. Has the department published any pamphlets or brochures outlining the dangers of cigarette smoking and its link with cancer? If not, does the department propose to do so?


Mr. Stanley Haidasz (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of National Health and Welfare):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to take this question as notice.


Douglas Mason Fisher: One o'clock.


Mr. Speaker:: Is it the desire of all hon. members that I call orders of the day at this time?


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: I have a question.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, you could fail to see the clock for a few minutes so that hon. members could ask their questions, we could then get on with the ordinary business.


Frank Howard: On a question of order, Mr. Speaker, perhaps you would call it one o'clock.


Mr. Speaker:: Is it the desire of hon. members that I see the clock or do not see the clock?


Frank Howard: One o'clock.
At one o'clock the house took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The house resumed at 2.30 p.m.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Stanley Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Secretary of State regarding the first reading of the proposed bill to

provide for the establishment of electoral boundaries commissions. Perhaps I might be permitted to base my question on an incomplete sentence uttered the other day by the Leader of the Opposition, the end of which I am sure we would all like to have heard. Discussing this matter and indicating why he had objected earlier to the bill being given first reading he said, as found on page 5940 of Hansard:
There is no reason at all why, before the end of this session, which I hope is not too far removed

At that point he was interrupted by "hear, hear" from the Secretary of State and so we never got the rest of the sentence. It seemed to me that the logical conclusion to the sentence should be that there was no reason why before the end of the session we could not have the introduction of the bill, not for the purpose of proceeding with it but so that we could see it between now and the next session. I wonder whether that is the situation, and if the Secretary of State would make whatever arrangements are necessary so that first reading may be given to the bill before the session ends.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, although the hon. gentleman is a great authority on the rules, I am not quite sure that this question is the kind that is in order on the orders of the day, but we will not dispute that. I might say that at the time the bill was not given first reading I said I would have some further conversations, and I meant through the usual channels outside the house, with representatives of the other parties. I intend to do that. 1 should like to do so, and I would prefer not to answer the question until I have done so.



SHIPPING


[Stage Direction]
"nanook"
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. Russell MacEwan (Piciou):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Transport with regard to the answer he gave me yesterday as to the coastguard ship Nanook. In his answer he stated he would give consideration to leaving the ship at Pictou until a decision was made. Does he believe that due consideration has been given, in that the ship is under orders to leave the port today and may even now be leaving that beautiful harbour?


George James McIlraith: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I was able to have this matter considered immediately after the question was asked yesterday, and in addition to what I said then I should like to expand my
Inquiries of the Ministry reply as to the situation. It is perfectly clear now that the ship will not be required in service, since there is a shore installation at the point it served that is quite adequate for the needs for next season and the foreseeable future. That being so, it was decided it was better to take the ship back to the marine agency at Halifax, where we do not have to pay for storage and thus save the storage charges that were being incurred.


Howard Russell MacEwan: Can the minister tell us whether the government has any plans for alternative employment for the shipyard since it is not proceeding with work on this ship?


George James McIlraith: There is a tender call going out tomorrow for some work on the Auk, and I hope the pencils in that yard will be very sharp in completing the tender.



ROYAL CANADIAN AIR FORCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Transport. In view of the decision not to allow the Pen-hold air base to be used for jet training, have any alternative plans been made so that the personnel on this station will not be reduced?


George James McIlraith: Mr. Speaker, I am not sure that this is a question for me. I am not able to give the Leader of the Opposition a full answer, but I can say that a great deal of discussion is going on between the Department of Transport and the Department of National Defence at this time with a view to trying to meet that kind of problem.



UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Raymond Langlois: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Labour concerning the Gill report. Is it the minister's intention at the next session to have a committee formed so that we may study the report and discuss it with the officials who may be called before the committee?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: Mr. Speaker, it is quite hard to forecast, but I would presume that if a bill is presented to the house it would be sent to a committee at the appropriate stage.

Inquiries of the Ministry


Raymond Langlois: Does the minister intend to send it to a committee as soon as possible after the beginning of the next session?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: As soon as possible, Mr. Speaker.



NATIONAL DEFENCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Prime Minister. Does the government intend to initiate talks with the United States in order to put an end to the agreement concerning the storage of American nuclear weapons in Canada?


Lester Bowles Pearson: No, Mr. Speaker, no such talks are presently contemplated.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Gordon Harvey Aiken: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Prime Minister. In view of the fact that some of his supporters talked out Bill No. S-15 relating to the "Back to the Bible'' broadcasts, could he arrange for time prior to adjournment in which a vote could be taken on this bill?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, it was not only government supporters who expressed some interest in this bill yesterday, with the result it was not proceeded with. I do not believe that the circumstances surrounding the consideration of this bill yesterday would justify the request for any such special arrangements this session.


Gordon Harvey Aiken: Will the Prime Minister take into account that discrimination against a religious group is involved?


Lester Bowles Pearson: The hon. gentleman was
kind enough to give me notice of his question, so I have had an opportunity to look into the matter. I do not feel myself that the question of discrimination and religious freedom was involved in the action taken yesterday.



ROYAL CANADIAN NAVY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. R. W. Prittie (Burnaby-Richmond):: Mr. Speaker, I have sent the Associate Minister of National Defence notice of this question. Will the minister inform the house if the charges of Commodore Plommer concerning the administration of the Royal Canadian Navy have been the subject of an independent investigation? If not, is such an investigation planned?


Louis-Joseph-Lucien Cardin: Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. member knows that in 1962, when Commodore Plommer first voiced his grievances, a complete inquiry was made into the grievances and a report was made to the then minister of national defence. Subsequently, as the result of an article that appeared in one of our Canadian magazines, the special committee on national defence had Commodore Plommer as a witness and all questions pertaining to the charges were investigated. At the same time the members of the committee were able to question the chief of naval staff about these charges. As the hon. member knows, the special committee on defence are now preparing a report, and we are going to wait for this report before making any decisions about further investigation into this matter.



HOUSING


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Georges Valade (Si. Mary):: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Labour. I should like to ask the Minister of Labour whether he has been made aware of the fact that in order to benefit from the $500 bonus, some contractors have increased the prices of their houses by $800 to $1,000 a house? If he is not aware of this, would he inquire in order to stop this kind of speculation?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: Mr. Speaker, I have not been aware of the situation but I will make inquiries.



AGRICULTURE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Frank Howard: Mr. Speaker, on October 28, because of the absence at the

time of the Minister of Agriculture, I directed a question to the Prime Minister. That situation also prevails today. The question I asked the Prime Minister on October 28 was whether the government were going to reinstitute the subventions under the Cold Storage Act and, if so, when. At that time the Prime Minister said he would look into the matter, and I would ask him whether he is in a position to answer now.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, I am sorry but I am not able to give an answer. I apologize for the delay and I will discuss the matter at once with the Minister of Agriculture, who today is attending a meeting of federal-provincial ministers of agriculture.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Perhaps he is in cold storage.



FEDERAL AGENCY TO PROVIDE FEED GRAIN FOR EASTERN FARMERS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Raymond Langlois: Mr. Speaker, I would like to address my question to the Minister without Portfolio. It concerns the federal-provincial conference and the eastern feed board. Has any matter concerning this board been brought up at the conference which is underway at the moment?


Hon. Rene Tremblay (Minister without Portfolio):: Mr. Speaker, I know that this matter is on the agenda of the conference. [Text]



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Michael Starr (Ontario):: Mr. Speaker,
I should like to ask the Minister of Labour whether he could give an indication to the house as to how the older employee program is coming along.


Allan Joseph MacEachen: Mr. Speaker, I have no definite figures to hand today with respect to this program. We are very anxious to have it succeed, and we are considering further steps which might be taken which would make it more attractive.


Michael Starr: I wonder whether the minister could give us some indication say tomorrow or Friday of the number of applications in respect of this program.


Allan Joseph MacEachen: I will, Mr. Speaker, either on orders of the day or on my estimates, which will be before the house this week.
28902-5-386
Inquiries of the Ministry


Wallace Bickford (Wally) Nesbitt: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the Minister of Labour. Has the Minister of Labour received any communications from industry that this present incentive plan to employ older workers is far too complex?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: Mr. Speaker, I do not recall any particular communication, but I will be pleased to consider any representations which might have the effect of simplifying the plan or making it more effective.



PUBLIC SERVICE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of Finance. Has the minister received a letter from the Civil Service Association of Canada, written over the signature of the president, Mr. J. C. Best, requesting early consideration of the effects on establishments of the austerity program, and also a review of the fringe benefit areas as they apply to people affected by policy changes which cause establishment reductions? If so, can the minister indicate what reply he has made to this request?


Walter Lockhart Gordon: Mr. Speaker, I have received such a letter. I know of no austerity program.


An hon. Member:: It is a prosperity program.


Walter Lockhart Gordon: It is suggested that we have a prosperity program and not an austerity program. The freeze of the establishments of various departments has been eased considerably. They are being reviewed commencing January 2. The other points raised in Mr. Best's letter will be considered, and I will be replying to him just as soon as I can.


Stanley Howard Knowles: When the minister says there is no austerity program-he knows we are referring to the civil service-does he mean that the establishments have been put back to the levels in effect before the freeze?


Walter Lockhart Gordon: In many cases the establishments have been put back either completely or in part. The remainder are being looked at as of January 2.


Stanley Howard Knowles: But the austerity is still there.


Walter Lockhart Gordon: I could not agree that the
austerity is still there; quite the contrary.

Supply-Post Office


Michael Starr: Has the
freeze on the hiring or replacement of civil servants in the various departments been lifted entirely?


Walter Lockhart Gordon: To a very considerable extent.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Raymond Langlois: Mr. Speaker, I put question No. 1,482 on the order paper some time ago, directed to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration. I was asking about bids on different tenders, and I received only the one that obtained the contract. Could I also ask the parliamentary secretary to answer the last part of this question and give me the bids on the other tenders?


John Carr Munro: Mr. Speaker, I will take that question as notice and see if I can have an answer by tomorrow.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. La-moureux in the chair.



POST OFFICE DEPARTMENT

[Stage Direction]
1. Departmental administration including Canada's share of the upkeep of the international bureaux at Berne and Montevideo, $2,083,500.
The Chairman:: Order. House again in committee of supply, Department of Post Office, vote No. 1. Shall the item carry?


Mr. Ricard:: Are we going to have a statement from the minister?


Azellus Denis: In presenting the estimates for the department for this year, I can surely not be accused of patronage since these estimates have been initiated and prepared by our honourable friends opposite.
Under these circumstances, naturally, you will permit me to be somewhat restricted in my praise, while being fair towards my coworkers by chance.
Since the annual report of the department for the year 1962-63 has not yet been tabled- it is at the printers-I will allow myself to outline the most important points, then to comment on our 1963-64 estimates, and finally, to inform the house of the initiation of reforms and decisions undertaken by the department since the coming into power of the present

government, and in doing this, I will necessarily limit the number outlined in order not to prolong the debate.
The year 1962-63 was to the Post Office Department, a most significant year of re-organization. Following the report of the royal commission on government organization, every effort was made to incorporate those recommendations of the commission which pertained to the department and which were under the department's jurisdiction.
The changes made emphasized, to a great extent, the decentralization of authority and responsibility to the benefit of officers in the field. As a result, many decisions will be made in the field, providing better service to the public, as field officers will be empowered to make many decisions on the spot rather than wait for approval from headquarters. The changeover is also expected to eliminate much correspondence between headquarters and the field. Headquarters, of course, still remain responsible for formulation of policy and headquarters officers will be in a better position to spend more time on this aspect of the work.
The 1962-63 fiscal year shows total receipts amounting to $222,358,848 while our disbursements totalled $218,872,399 leaving a surplus of $3,486,449.
This compares quite favourably with the figures recorded in 1960-61 and 1961-62, which showed deficits in round figures of $4.7 million and $1.2 million respectively. We must, however, take into account salary increases to post office personnel, which amount to $230,000 and which must be charged to the year 1961-62 and credited to the year 1962-63. On the other hand, we must also debit the retroactive part, amounting to $4,887,076, of the recent salary increases paid during the current year, which should be charged to the fiscal year 1962-63. These retroactive increases produce a real deficit of about $1 million for that year, rather than the surplus of about $3.5 million.

Letter carrier service was inaugurated at Summerside, P.E.I., Oromocto, N.B., Thornhill, Ontario, Ste. Rose, Quebec and Hawkes-bury, Ontario. In addition, 207 additional letter carrier walks were placed in operation, bringing to 3,113,765 the number of calls where letter carriers provide door to door mail delivery. The increase in the number of calls is less than in previous years. This is a result of the reduced expenditure program undertaken by the government during the year under review. The 5,640 rural routes now in operation across Canada have brought this service to an all-time high, serving 645,115 householders.

Post office activities in the field of labour relations saw improved procedures in regard to truck drivers who are employed by contractors for major mail transportation services. Clauses have been inserted in the post office contracts with carriers establishing a minimum hourly wage determined by the Department of Labour. Other clauses incorporated in the contracts deal with annual holidays with pay.
During the year the volume of mail handled showed an increase of 3.94 per cent over the figures for 1961-62. It should be noted that, due to increased efficiency and more effective planning, this increased volume of mail was handled by a staff increase of only one half of one per cent.
The increases and improvements in service that I have described-in letter carrier service, in rural route service, in mail volume and in revenue figures-are the result of the normal growth of the postal service in an expanding economy and a growing population. These increases have been accompanied by an increase in the costs of salaries, transportation and equipment, which are also a normal product of an expanding service.
This pattern of normal growth is reflected in the statistical review of the year 1962-63. While these statistics will be presented in detail on the tabling of the Postmaster General's report, I should like to mention just a few of them here. For instance, departmental revenues increased by almost $9 million in 1962-63 over the previous year. Similarly, departmental expenditures increased by about $4 million during the same period. These figures do not, as I mentioned earlier, include back-dated salary increases which result in a net deficit for the year.

So much for the past. The total departmental estimates for 1963-64 are $191,704,000, which represent an increase of $1,113,500 over last year, taking into consideration supple-mentaries for both years. It should be noted that salary and transportation increases, factors over which the department has little control, account for the bulk of this figure, which has only been kept down to this level by savings made in these and other areas of expenditures.
Our increased expenditures will be met to a large extent by increased postal rates and fees which I announced some months ago. With the new rates, we have calculated that the department will about break even over the next three-year period. It should be noted that without the recent increases, the department's anticipated deficit over the next three years would have been nearly $15 million.
28902-5-386J
Supply-Post Office
I should like to point out that the five separate rate increases recently announced were all for services which were not paying their way. Under the new rates, there will still be a net loss, but it will be much less.
I have indicated that normal additional services, particularly in regard to letter carrier service, had been slowed down by the government's reduced expenditure program.
I am pleased to tell you that part of the additional revenue from the recent rate increase is being used to provide door-to-door mail delivery on a normal basis which will give this type of service to some 20,000 new homes in the immediate future. Already, since the beginning of October more than
10.000	householders have been granted door-to-door letter carrier delivery service and the others will follow as quickly as arrangements can be completed.
I also intend to give a brand new look to Canadian postage stamps and, in the future, Canadians can look for brighter and more interesting stamps as the department produces three and perhaps four colour stamps by a combination of steel engraving and offset lithography as compared to the customary one or two colour designs. Red will be mostly used to make them more attractive.
We plan to begin a series of coloured stamps showing the various provincial floral emblems. We have under way what I think are attractive stamps on the themes of world peace and Canadian unity, and also stamps to commemorate the Charlottetown and Quebec conferences of 1864 which led to confederation. We have decided, for next year, to issue a special Christmas stamp that should be most appropriate.
The department has in its vaults some
58.000	foreign stamps. We wish to display this magnificent collection for the public. This vast collection is now being catalogued and organized and, we hope, will soon be made available for public inspection both at Ottawa and at other points across the country.
Since becoming Postmaster General I have met with great pleasure every group of postal employees who wanted to meet me. In addition, I have met with the executive officers of all the postal associations. I have also done everything I could to back up the work of the department's standing committee on employee relations. As a proof of my interest in the welfare of the employees, I have succeeded in increasing the percentage of the salary increases granted to postmasters of smaller offices during the recent pay revisions.
Another example of my interest in the welfare of the employees was my decision to give the postmasters of smaller offices an

Supply-Post Office
opportunity to compete for promotion in a wider field, and that, at the request of their association.


Georges-J. Valade: Mr. Chairman, would the
minister allow me to ask him a question?


Azellus Denis: Certainly.


Georges-J. Valade: The minister referred to the fact that he had obtained salary increases for the postmasters. Can he tell us the amounts of those raises?


Azellus Denis: Mr. Chairman, I said that I had succeeded in increasing the percentage of salary increases granted to postmasters of smaller offices. As a rule, the increase is based on a percentage and as these were smaller offices, the increase would have been between $25 or $30, for instance. That is why they were granted, through my intervention, a minimum raise of $60.


Gilles Grégoire: That is very good.


Azellus Denis: Mr. Chairman, at this point in my remarks, I wish to state that, in spite of everything that was said here and elsewhere, the appointment of postmasters and the granting of contracts for supplies and services were made, and still are, under the provisions of the Post Office Act. In all cases, the act was followed faithfully.
Mr. Chairman, I cannot close my remarks without paying a special tribute to all the postal employees who, day in day out, through unselfish devotion to their work, have given the Canada post office a reputation of being second to none. This includes not only the regular employees of the department, but also, the rural mail carriers, the contractors and their employees, whose contribution to the postal service is great indeed.
In short, the Post Office Department has given and continues to give to the Canadian people a service of which they can be proud, and it is for this reason that I humbly ask this house to approve the estimates, as now submitted.


Georges-J. Valade: Mr. Chairman, my first words will be to congratulate the minister for having been as brief in his remarks as his administration will be.
We noted that the Postmaster General (Mr. Denis) came into the house under a certain nervous stress, probably dreading the moment where we could at last criticize his department.
The minister has colour and all hon. members know him, but what we would like to know is the political colour of those he seems to favour in certain very special circumstances.
[Mr. Denis.1
Mr. Chairman, the attendance of the Postmaster General in the house this afternoon was prepared by the Secretary of State and leader of the house (Mr. Pickersgill), who is known for his wit during our discussions. Indeed, as found on page 5733 of Hansard of December 11, 1963, the leader of the house announced that we would benefit from the lights of the Postmaster General. Here is what he said:
When they have concluded-
And the leader of the house had just been speaking about the Department of Agriculture.
-and the carnage is over, the Postmaster General is only too ready to enter the slaughter house.
Those are the words used by the leader of the house and I think he was right. I do not think the Postmaster General will enter the slaughter house, but I think that he is ready to commit suicide to try and save the reputation of the Liberal party.
At this stage of my remarks, Mr. Chairman, I avail myself of the opportunity to tell the minister I understand his great selfdenial in face of the patronage situation experienced in his department, in so few weeks of administration. The minister will not mind, I hope, if I tell him I understand he has already made his sublime sacrifice on the altar of Liberal patronage and that he is ready to tell his leader, the Prime Minister (Mr. Pearson), like St. Theresa of Lisieux: It does not matter, my God, if I burn in hell for eternity, if such is the will of the dear leader of the Liberal party.
Mr. Chairman, I believe the minister is ready for holocaust, so much so that he omitted, in his introduction, to speak about the most important problems-


Gilles Grégoire: One sees the mote in other people's eyes, but does not see the beam in his own.


Georges-J. Valade: Mr. Chairman, if the hon. member for Lapointe (Mr. Gregoire) would abide by standing orders, I would be grateful to him. No doubt, he has interesting things to tell us, and if they are, we shall be in a position to appreciate them later on. So, I would ask him to please stay still a bit and allow those who have serious things to say to express themselves in this house.
Mr. Chairman, in his brief speech and his short statement of excuses, the Postmaster General did not touch on a side of his department's administration which is indeed one of the most important ones, since his department is supposed to be the only one able to support itself, without having to rely on any grant whatever from the federal government.

For instance, the minister has failed, unintentionally or not, to mention salary increases for certain postal employees, increases which he called for when he was but a very noisy private member and critic of the Post Office Department for the then official opposition.
He also used to deal with the improvement of working conditions in that department. In fact, all will admit that the present Postmaster General was the champion of the improvement of working conditions for the employees of the Post Office Department. He no longer talks about that now.
Mr. Chairman, a matter which seems to have haunted the Postmaster General when he was only the private member for St. Denis, is that of the thefts in post offices. In fact, I recall that he used to repeat the same story all the time, that there was not a single day when we would not have heard the hon. member for St. Denis ask the then postmaster general if he was not aware that a burglary had taken place in such and such a post office.
I was really surprised to note that the Postmaster General made no mention at all of post office thefts in his brief statement on presenting his estimates. Yet, those thefts keep on happening and are even getting more serious since the minister was appointed to his present duties.
When he analysed the situation in his department, the minister failed to suggest a policy to ensure a balanced budget. As a matter of fact, we are far from the balance policy he always advocated when he was in the opposition.
He acquired a wide experience and showed great competence since he was elected to the house, more especially since he was designated as official critic of the opposition on postal matters. At that time, he put himself to a lot of trouble. He searched through all the departmental files and he even had access to confidential reports the then postmaster general was kind enough to let him consult.
In the light of the minister's comments, we must come to the conclusion that, since he took over as Postmaster General, he has not put into practice any new formula and none of the suggestions he made when he was sitting in the opposition.
Mr. Chairman, I should like to quote certain observations the present Postmaster General made on July 26, 1958, when he was just the private member for St. Denis, and which show exactly the situation in which the Postmaster General finds himself once again today. The situation which the minister promoted a few years ago has become for him, today, a stumbling block, and it cannot be denied that when he was sitting in the
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opposition, the minister played a much more efficient role than he is playing today.
I should have liked the Postmaster General to speak more extensively on the question which obsessed him when he was in the opposition. I do not intend to quote all the insignificant allegations recited in the past by the present Postmaster General; neither do I intend to give an account of the debates, reflections, complaints and laments he was then heard to express. On the other hand, he spoke of thefts, as though they had been invented; he spoke about the postal system, saying the department owed it to itself to grant the country two postal deliveries a day.
I could quote the words of the member for St. Jean-Iberville-Napierville (Mr. Dupuis), as reported in the official record for July 26, 1958, and so applicable to the present Postmaster General. I could not let this opportunity go by without reminding him of his own words, which, today, must leave him quite ill at ease in his present position.
Concerning thefts in post offices, I have before me a newspaper article mentioning a recent theft in Montreal, involving over $40,000. I learned through another article, a few days ago, that a post office had been robbed of about $20,000. Since the minister has been there, you learn that everywhere in this country post offices suffer important thefts. I wonder why the Postmaster General, after four years experience in the opposition, at which time he was obsessed, as I was saying a while ago, by thefts occurring in post offices, did not find it appropriate to tell us what he thought of this situation, and especially what means he intends to use to protect the valuables and other articles that the department is entrusted with.


Mr. Caouette:: It takes him a long time to understand.


Georges-J. Valade: I agree with the hon. member for Villeneuve when he says the Postmaster General takes a long time to understand.
Mr. Chairman, if we cannot discuss objectively the estimates introduced by the Postmaster General, it is because we notice that the estimates are in accordance with reality. That is what we find strange and the only explanation I could find is that they were prepared by our administration, which goes to show once again that the people had no reason to overthrow a government which had such a good record of administrating public business that the present Postmaster General adopts the same system.
Of course, the Postmaster General gave new guide lines to his department's policy, guide lines which clearly indicate the philosophy of the government now in power, because since they have taken over, the Liberals

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have applied the policy of patronage of which the Postmaster General is but one example giving us an opportunity to point out the most crucial and most shocking problems. And to think that those people were elected on the commitment to bring new life to the federal administration.
The Postmaster General specially forgot to discuss the matter of the salary increases asked for by his employees for so long. You will recall, Mr. Chairman, that when we were in power, we gave a salary increase to post office employees.
I have in front of me a few letters from people who are asking how it is possible that with an administration headed by a man who promised during so many years to raise the post office staff salaries, not only the employees have not had any increase, but they had a cut in their salary. In fact, I wonder whether it is the policy of the government to consider increasing the wages of the employees.
One of my constituents wrote me on August 17 saying:
-As you undoubtedly know, the employees have been granted an increase: the workers on the fourth floor at least were given an increase of 16 cents per hour, I think, but our wages were reduced by 14 cents per hour. We were earning $1.57 and we now receive $1.43 an hour for the same work-


David Réal Caouette: A policy of grandeur.


Georges-J. Valade: Yes, I am wondering whether this is a policy of grandeur and whether the Postmaster General is showing a genuine interest in the wages of postal workers, as he promised while he was in the opposition.
I also have a document to prove that under the Conservative administration all employees had been granted some rather substantial increases. I shall spare the house the enumeration of all those increases and all the categories of persons who benefited therefrom. In any case, I think the Postmaster General is aware of those salary increases. Nevertheless, I would have liked to hear him tell us what policy he intends to follow in this matter.
The Postmaster General knows as well as I do that the employees of his department are rendering a valuable service to society. They are dedicated people who do not count the hours spent at the service of the Post Office Department, though their health may sometimes suffer.
Since all the bills having received most careful consideration by the government were designed to raise the salary rates of high government officials in Canada-there is also the bill which enabled the members of this house to get a rather substantial increase- I wonder whether the minister could now look after the little people and at long last solve

a problem that is surely worthy of more attention than the minister has been giving to it until now.
If I am not mistaken, the minister did not refer to the steps advocated by the Glassco commission in its report on the improvement of efficiency in the postal service. Unfortunately, being a good Liberal administrator, he overlooked the recommendations of the Glassco commission. He should have realized that it would have been to the advantage of the Canadian people to apply certain steps and he could then have told us something about the improvement in service the public is asking for.
I have here an article published in La Presse of October 15, 1963, in which it is said:
-But if Mr. Denis is convinced that without those increases, there will be a deficit in his department, the public is just as convinced that, without an increase in the number of wicket clerks, at the Place d'Armes post office among others, some day there will be a fresh outbreak of separatism.
I think that if the Postmaster General would really take the trouble of considering the administrative problems for which he is responsible rather than considering the request for patronage made to him by sympathizers of the great Liberal cause, it would certainly result in some great improvement for the public.
Mr. Chairman, the minister gave us a broad outline, a little while ago. His outline of the situation was somewhat too broad to allow him to make any concrete announcement. For instance, he spoke about the pay increase granted to sub-postmasters but when I inquired about the nature of that increase, I was not surprised to learn that it was $5 a month. What a big improvement, what an acknowledgement of the services and devotion of that category of employees.
I am wondering whether the minister was in earnest when he said that owing to his personal intervention, the postmasters' salaries had been increased, while they were only increased by $60 a year. If the minister's intervention has no better result than that, I believe he could really ask his leader to recommend him for a job in which a $60 a year increase could be considered as a special treatment for him.
However, I believe the Postmaster General juggled with his department's expenditures and has not concerned himself with bringing improvements such as those made by the former government, which came to power in 1957, and that on the whole, the administration entrusted to him is a complete failure.
The present Postmaster General had been so voluble when he was a member of the

opposition that people had expected something more than the incoherent statements he has given us this afternoon.
Of course, I understand the minister is in a somewhat difficult position; rumour has it that an appointment would be intended for him in a much quieter and easier place, in a less committing position. So I believe that having in mind a promotion in another place, the minister has not taken pains to examine thoroughly the problems inherent to his department.
We are not going to blame him too much for that, because we are under the impression that the Prime Minister will know how to reward him during the Christmas holidays. And as we are in a festive spirit, I should like to take this opportunity to wish the Postmaster General to find in his Christmas stocking the appointment that he has been wishing for all these years, and the house will not be any worse off for it. Upon our return, we shall be able to offer him our warmest congratulations for getting a transfer to a world of tranquillity instead of worries, as he experiences at this time.
When the minister said earlier, that patronage had been introduced into the Post Office Department by the former administration, I had the impression that he was referring to the former Conservative administration. But after checking my material, I understood that he was referring rather to the former Liberal administration. If the minister wants to be honest and consistent, he can refresh his memory by looking into an article published in La Presse on May 31, 1951, that is close to 13 years ago, when the Conservatives were not in office. That article proves that patronage was really a Liberal creation for which the minister, in order to make excuses for himself, is trying now to blame the former Conservative administration.
That article has this to say:
Members of the opposition maintained yesterday in the Commons that appointments made in the Post Office Department are sometimes the result of patronage.
Members of the three opposition parties criticized the way appointments were made during consideration of the bill presented by the Hon. Mr. Rinfret, postmaster general, to amend and revise the legislation concerning the postal service.
Mr. Chairman, that article was published in that newspaper at a time when our friends opposite were in power. That goes to show that the minister was mistaken, once again, when he said that patronage started under the Conservative administration. It is more of a genuine Liberal system, it is part of the Liberal party's concepts and philosophy to use power to its own advantage rather than to serve the people.
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If I were the only member here to make that charge, I think the hon. members opposite would be justified to question my word. But when we come back to the reason why the member for St. Denis is part of the cabinet as Postmaster General, we get the feeling of being before the Liberal party's executioner, that is to say the patronage handler in the highest sense of the word. There is no doubt that patronage came into the federal administration with the Postmaster General.
Some time ago, when we asked the Postmaster General if he had really compiled a patronage list, he stated, upon his word as a minister, that there was no patronage list in his office.
When we plied him with questions, the minister finally admitted that there was a list, but that it was not a patronage list. It was a list which he called a "list of consultants".
I regret to say that the minister misled the house when he said that there was no patronage list in his office and when he called the list a "list of consultants".
After examining that notorious list of consultants, we were in a position to see that this list, by error or for political reasons, included the names of Liberal candidates defeated in the last election, in all the ridings in Canada.
Yet, knowing the man who was my political opponent and who, by the way, did not even live in the riding, I wondered how he could have been appointed a consultant to the Post Office Department with his lack of qualifications. At least if he had been a consultant. The Postmaster General knows full well that the Quebec minimum wage act forbids employers to pay their employees less than the minimum wage. Now, I feel that those people should be paid a salary by the department, particularly if they are qualified consultants.
We made a comparison and we came to the conclusion-


John Carr Munro: Mr. Chairman, I wonder
whether I may ask the hon. member a question.


Georges-J. Valade: If your name is on the list.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


John Carr Munro: I wonder if the hon. member could tell us whether under the former administration his name was on a Conservative patronage list, under the title "consultant".


Georges-J. Valade: I am very happy that the hon. gentleman has asked me that question,

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because I was just going to speak on that The Chairman: Order. I would like to rematter. I hope the hon. member will be satis- mind the committee that the hon. member for fled with my question-	St. Mary has the floor.


Some hon. Members:: Answer.


Georges-J. Valade: -and if he is not satisfied I hope he will ask me another question. I will conclude my remarks in English because I would like the hon. member to have the opportunity of getting the meaning that I want to convey with regard to the patronage list to which he has referred.

Mr. Chairman, at the request of my friend for St. Lawrence-St. George (Mr. Turner), I shall pursue my remarks in French.
When the minister was accused of having such a list, he said: "We have no patronage list." Later on, he said: "Your Conservative list was worse than ours".
When a minister states that there is no patronage list and then ends up saying "Your list was worse than ours", it seems to me that there is a lack of coherence on his part, as regards the official or non-official recognition of a list that really existed.
Now, to answer the question put to me a moment ago, I have here the list of consultants that was prepared in the minister's office-


David Réal Caouette: Those are two identical lists.


Mr. Choqueite:: He is somebody, he is a man.


Georges-J. Valade: A good man who almost lost his deposit, despite the speech made by the hon. member for St. Jean-Iberville-Napier-ville (Mr. Dupuis) in the riding of St. Mary.
We have here, Mr. Chairman, the list of consultants issued by the Liberal party, and we find that the basic difference between the patronage list of the Liberal party and its list of consultants is that on the list the Postmaster General had in his office, in all ridings where Liberal members were defeated, Liberal candidates were appointed patronage agents under the title of consultants to the Postmaster General.
When the minister said that there was a list of Conservatives identical to his own, I say here that he misled the house, either by ignorance or knowingly, in order to clear himself.
I am in a position to prove that statement, and I can tell the hon. member that the list referred to by the minister was a list of addresses, prepared during the last electoral campaign and containing the addresses of all the Conservative candidates who had organization committees in each of the counties, and not a list of former candidates.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Georges-J. Valade: Mr. Chairman, I think that the hon. members opposite have misunderstood what I meant when I said that the former postmaster general had issued a list of addresses in March 1963, so that the mail addressed to the members of the House of Commons could be redirected to the various constituencies. It was not a list which was put in the office of the minister for patronage, for placing people in post offices, as is done at the present time.
I appreciate that our hon. friends might have some difficulty to see the difference; indeed, they do not want to see the difference. We are proving to them that under the Conservative administration there was no such thing as a patronage list, while under the Liberals such a list is official, classifying as "consultants" defeated candidates in the election.
That list is a sort of open sesame to the various post offices throughout Canada, whereas, under the Conservative administration, the only thing the postmaster general did, was to advise the offices that this or that member could be found at the address of a central committee during the electoral campaign. That was a normal thing to do. It was not a matter of patronage, it was a list of addresses, and I know-


Lucien Lamoureux: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member, but the time allotted to him has expired.


Georges-J. Valade: I hope that the house will allow me a few more minutes, for we have on many occasions agreed to listen to the nonsense of certain members opposite.


Azellus Denis: Mr. Chairman, I would ask the house to agree to let the hon. member go on with his remarks, since he is far from being offensive.


Georges-J. Valade: I can understand the Postmaster General stating that I am not offensive, for he himself is very defensive; but he would just the same like to be in another situation.
I know that I must thank him for the opportunity he has given me to reiterate the wish which we all make, that the new year would increase, in the interest of the House of Commons, the number of senators and deliver us from his presence.
Finally, he will be regarded as one of the postmaster generals who indulged the most in patronage in the history of this country.


Mr.   Cole@Longueuil: Mr. Chairman, the time allocated to the hon. member has now expired and I object to his continuing to talk nonsense.


An hon. Member:: This is going to be good.


David Réal Caouette: Mr. Chairman, I hear the hon. member for Montmagny-L'Islet (Mr. Berger) say that this is going to be good. It will certainly be better than it is in his constituency.


Frank Howard: Mr. Chairman, may I raise a point of order. My point of order is that it is the normal course of events to see the spokesman for the various parties recognized in the order of party precedence in the house, and therefore the hon. member for Danforth should have been recognized.


Lucien Lamoureux: Order. I appreciate this point. That is what I had proposed to do but I must say I did not see the hon. member for Danforth until I had called on the hon. member for Villeneuve. Perhaps the hon. member for Villeneuve may want to yield the recognition I accorded him in favour of the hon. member for Danforth.


David Réal Caouette: Mr. Chairman, it is a pleasure for me to follow the traditions of the house and I shall leave the floor to the hon. member for Danforth.


Mr. Scott:: Mr. Chairman, first of all I should like to thank the hon. member for Villeneuve. I had not intended to raise the matter myself, but the hon. member for Skeena is always insistent on the rules being followed and is a great respecter of the rules and traditions of the house. I thank the hon. member for Villeneuve for yielding to me.
There are a few remarks I should like to make on behalf of our party with regard to this department. I should like to begin by saying that most of them, in fact all of them, are not directed at the minister in any personal way. I have had occasion to have dealings with the minister on postal matters, and from a personal point of view I can say I have found him to be quite co-operative and very fair. I want to make that clear. I wanted to say that at the beginning, because the balance of my remarks will not be quite as congratulatory of the minister and the government.
Over the years the Post Office Department, of course, has been a department that has not always received the care and attention that is should have received from parliament and from the ministers who have looked after its affairs. From our examination it is our view that one of the best cabinet ministers ever to handle this portfolio was Mr. W. Hamilton, a former member from Montreal, I believe. An examination of the records and
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of his performance of his duties shows that he did make an honest, sincere and partially successful attempt to root out many of the more flagrant abuses. It is regrettable in a way that he was removed from our midst by the wishes of his constituents in the 1962 election, because we have never felt that his successors measured up to his ability. As I have said, the department is one which is capable of great use or great misuse. Signs already appearing, which we can see, seem to indicate that some of the older and more reprehensible practices in this department are again rearing their heads.
I was interested in the speech of the hon. member for St. Mary, much of which I thought was needlessly self-congratulatory of the previous government, and some of it quite hypocritical. The criticisms he has been making could more properly have been directed, and to some degree with greater validity, toward the administration which preceded the present one. Indeed, Mr. Chairman, one of the most depressing aspects this session is the constant refrain we hear from this side of the house that all the present government is doing is carrying on the brilliant and marvellous programs introduced by the Conservatives when they formed the government.
I want to deal with the department in two or three aspects, and the first one is one which has partially been raised by the previous speaker. I refer to patronage. We have heard a great deal about this. In fact, I notice that most members on the other side of the house have their little lists of consultants and they are waving them with great glee. I do not know how many there are in the house but it is quite a pretty sight to see all the white sheets being waved. Of course, these lists are not new. They were used by the previous government as well. I do not know to what degree they constitute patronage, but I do think there are more serious charges of patronage that can be made against the government and ones which ought to be investigated in the next session by a special committee of the house.


Azellus Denis: May I ask a question? Will the hon. member mention the particular cases?


Reid Scott: The minister is just about two minutes ahead of me; I am just coming to that. I am not suggesting whether these charges which have been made by responsible members of the postal department are true or not. Obviously we do not have enough evidence to judge at this stage. But they have been made and to me they constitute a very grave and serious reflection upon an important aspect of the civil service. If the charges that the present government is
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instituting patronage practices for political purposes are true, we have the right to know. They should be investigated, as I have said, by a special committee of the house in the next session of parliament. Obviously there is not time to do it now, and no one suggests that a serious attempt could successfully be made.
I have a photostat of an article which appeared in one of the Ottawa newspapers. In it charges are made by a Mr. Bill Houle, who is president of C.P.E.A., Montreal local. This man is not a politician but a responsible officer in his department. He has charged, at a meeting at which the deputy postmaster general, W. H. Wilson, was present-I think it was the annual dinner of the Ottawa branch which was held here-that by the use of patronage we are reintroducing patronage into the government of Canada. That is a very serious charge to make. The article does not disclose any detailed facts, but complaints were made about the manner of hiring being adopted by the department. The local postal clerk, a Mr. Bernard Belanger, asked whether the post office had a policy of hiring cheap casual help to fill jobs previously held by postal clerks, and he said that this policy would eventually result in the extinction of postal clerks. These are grave charges, Mr. Chairman. We do not know whether or not they are true, but if this trend is beginning to make itself apparent then we have the right to know about it and to try to stop it before it goes any further.
All this banter which has taken place in the house over the subject of the lists is not that important. I think it is an unpleasant thing to do and that it is somewhat improper, but I think all the hullaballoo made about it is a little silly. But we as members of parliament should be concerned at the more serious aspects of the matter which are rearing their heads. While the post office department has always been lightly regarded by the government, it is a department of some importance touching the lives of everyone in Canada, and should be looked after carefully by us in our deliberations. Therefore I suggest to the minister that he agree to have these charges investigated, and that we be permitted to call before us various individuals who have made such charges so as to ascertain whether or not they are true. It may be they are untrue. If that is the case then we should know this as well.
The other matter about which I wanted to speak is also of great importance and concerns the working conditions under which postal employees operate. We always hear a lot about the need for good postal services, for two or three deliveries a day, and taking care of the desires of the public. But I want

to make an appeal to the minister to become the champion of the postal employees, because they are the neglected part of the Post Office Department. It is all very well to talk of pretty stamps, of an annual stamp day, of a stamp for this person and a stamp for that person. But the minister would make a greater contribution to his department if he became the spokesman of, and the champion for, the rights of the employees.
I should like to put on the record something of the conditions under which they work. I think it is reprehensible that this large body of public servants should have no collective bargaining rights and no arbitration rights. We give these to all sections of the working community through our labour laws. We give them to such people as a matter of right. We give the right to our workmen to associate together and to bargain collectively for the betterment of their working conditions. Our farmers have certain farm organizations to take care of their interests. I think it is extremely reprehensible that our employees in the postal department do not have similar rights.
I think most members received a bulletin from the federated association of letter carriers in June of this year headed: "The Postmen ask, is it fair". In this bulletin are set out some of the onerous conditions under which these people are working, and I should like to put them on record.
The letter carrier Is made completely responsible for the mail on his route. He has personal and individual responsibility as compared to the average postal employee who works in a group.
He is responsible for registered mail and for all changes of address, sometimes for as long as a year, sometimes indefinitely. He re-addresses all changes and keeps an up to date directory for this purpose, and notifies publishers of changes in address.
In addition he has recently been assigned the task of redirecting family allowance and old age pension cheques, formerly a responsibility of the recipients.
He is responsible for collecting government money through C.O.D. items, short-paid mail and custom and excise charges.
He must personally investigate complaints that mail which was posted was not delivered, often due to the fault of others, and write an explanation on a special enquiry form.
In dealing with the public he is expected to do a good "public relations" job for the government and the post office in particular. He is expected to be neat in appearance, courteous and knowledgeable.
He is expected to carry ever-increasing loads. In a ten year period the average walk has increased by more than 100 calls and 400 pieces of mail daily.
Despite advancing age he is expected to keep in top physical condition in order to perform his job quickly and efficiently. He must stick on the job until his daily task is completed. While he has a starting hour he has no finishing time.

The carrier is up and on the job by at least 6.30 a.m., often earlier.
Apart from a ten minute coffee break he has to go without lunch until his last item of mail is delivered. This can be a six-hour grind and often is even longer.
He must carry out his duties in all kinds of weather, outdoors all year round, in temperatures from the nineties to below zero, through rain and snow and upon treacherous, icy sidewalks and stairs.
Aside from regular mail he is the pack-horse for business firms who load his walk with bundles of "householder" pamphlets, dodgers and other sales promotion literature, which he must deliver to every letter box on his route-a veritable gold mine for the post office in the Toronto area alone.
While other postal workers are required to work many hours overtime the carrier is expected to prepare and deliver his volume in a regular working day.
Working under these wonderful conditions, Mr. Chairman, the letter carrier has had no pay increase in almost three years. His average weekly wage is $67.50 take home pay; that is a man with two children. The bulletin continues:
Many wives and mothers must work to make ends meet and many carriers take second jobs to support their families. Like the low man on the totem pole he carries the great weight of those above him and receives the least attention for his efforts. Is it any wonder the letter carriers ask: Is it fair?
These kind of working conditions would not be tolerated by this government.
I was at the reception the other day for the Canadian Labour Congress and I never saw a more smoothly managed stage performance or such a degree of interest in labour. Labour is going to get anything it wants. I have never seen such interest in the working man. He is going to get a fair deal. They could not have been more careful in the way they were currying favour. But in the department over which the minister has control there are people working under these types of conditions, who have no collective bargaining rights, for which they have been asking for years. They have been asking for compulsory arbitration so that they can force upon an unwilling government the awards which an arbitrator would give them, and they cannot get that right either. I appeal to the minister, as I said at the start of this phase of my remarks. If he wants to be a great minister and to elevate himself above the level at which most postmasters have been content to serve, then let him become the champion of the people in his department. From letters I have received I am under the impression that morale in the Post Office Department is low. I hope I am wrong in this. But I suggest to the hon. gentleman that he should get out of his office and talk to some of the people who work in his department. Never mind the senior officials, though they are perfectly 28902-5-3874
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competent. The minister should find out what are the feelings of the letter carriers and of the workers in some of the lower levels in the post office. These people are unhappy. They feel that no one really cares about their working conditions. I do not think this state of affairs will be improved until the minister himself is ready to get out into the field and find out the thoughts and wishes of those who work there. If he were to do that, there would be at least a chance of bringing about an improvement in conditions.
Some consideration should be given to establishing a fairer method of handling dismissals. At the present time, employees who are dismissed are entitled to appeal to a higher body. Some of us have had occasion to appear before these kangaroo courts. They are loaded in favour of the department. The applicant rarely has an opportunity to call witnesses, or else he finds witnesses are not available. I appeared before such a body on behalf of one employee and I sent in a list of the people I wanted to call as witnesses in support of my case. They were astonished. This had never been done. They were all working. They were not available. Consequently, there was no evidence to repudiate the charges which were made and in due course a notice came out to say that the appeal had been dismissed. I have never appeared before a more one-sided kangaroo court. I should like to see the minister do something to remedy this state of affairs and give employees a better chance. In particular he should make sure that those who come down from Ottawa to hear these cases have all the evidence before them. I do not criticize them. If they do not hear both sides of the case they cannot make an intelligent judgment. But by controlling the evidence to which the board has access the department is, in effect, controlling the decisions. I think this is a situation which should be changed.
The minister should give consideration to increasing the remuneration paid to the thousands of people who operate sub-post offices. I spent the whole summer in my constituency trying to get a new sub-post office established. I did not think of going to see the consultant. I might have got some action if I had had the forethought to do that, but it did not occur to me at the time. The real difficulty we encountered was that no one would take on the job. We found all kinds of individuals who are interested in running a post office, but as soon as I quoted the rates they politely showed me the door. The rates are so low that it is not worth the trouble of providing a service. This is not an effective way in which to operate the department. I ask the minister to give serious thought to this, because the present rates of

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remuneration are affecting the quality of the service from coast to coast, and I think they are affecting the quality of the individuals who serve in our sub-post offices.
I do not wish to continue at any great length because I know there are a great many speakers to follow me and they will probably cover the subjects which I omit. I should like to conclude by renewing my appeal to the minister. I know there are rumours in the newspapers that he is not going to be here very long. I hope they are not true. I hope he will stay with us and that he will find within himself the qualities necessary to make this department a much better department than it is at the present time. There are areas which are in grave need of overhaul. Some of this work was started by Mr, Hamilton when he was postmaster general but I do not think any serious attempt has been made since that time. One of our disappointments so far is that the present minister does not give us on this side of the house the impression that he intends to use the qualities he possesses. We do not get the impression that the minister really understands the problems of this department or that he is the type of minister who would turn his whole party against him, if necessary. 1 am told that Mr. Hamilton was such a good postmaster that he did not have a single friend in the Tory party. I do not want to interfere with the hon. gentleman's friendships but if he were able to announce next year that he was so good, so impartial, so anxious to serve the needs of the post office at the expense of his party that he did not have a single, solitary friend in the Liberal party, this would be the greatest tribute he could be paid.


Mr. Olson:: I wish to make only a few remarks with respect to the estimates of the Post Office Department which are before us now. At the outset I think it was well known in this house to the dismay of most members that we see this ugly trend toward patronage coming up again in a government department. It seems it has shown up more in the Post Office Department because of lists which have been tabled and if there are such things in other departments, we do not know they are there but we hope they are not.
The fact is that members have these lists before them now and they are extremely sorry that this kind of thing is being continued. In my opinion, in this enlightened age when we have technological apparatus available to us and to the leaders of parties, and to members and candidates, to communicate with the mass of the people in Canada, in their constituencies in particular, this kind of patronage which has begun to show up again is, in fact, a liability to a political party, rather than an

asset. I know that in days gone by when there were no facilities for mass communication with the people there were politicians and political party organizers in various areas who were consultants, and so on. It may have been a political asset then, but I am certain that in the long range view today any form of patronage of the nature that is showing up now is, in fact, a liability. It belongs to an age that has gone past and I certainly hope we are going to see an end to it, particularly in the post office.
I was interested in the remarks made by the hon. member for St. Mary. If I understood him correctly-and he was interrupted a few times-he said the purpose of the lists which were tabled was to enable the department to find members of parliament after the election. If he did not say that, I apologize. But if he did say something to that effect I would like to pose a question. I read from the front page of this list, sessional paper 255, part I, and it says:
Effective immediately. All matters pertaining to Newfoundland will be referred to James A. McGrath, M.P. and I think at the time of referral he should be supplied with the name and address of the individual who is our normal consultant concerned with the particular problems.
What does that mean? Does that mean you needed the list so you could forward mail and, furthermore, what do they mean by "all matters pertaining to Newfoundland-"


Georges-J. Valade: Since the hon. member asked me a question, I would like to refer him to the dates on this list, which are February 8, February 26 and March 26. It was, in fact, a demand from members of parliament so that their addresses should be changed in order that their mail would be forwarded to them during the campaign. There is nothing connected with patronage about this. It is just a list so that the mail will reach members of parliament.


Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson: I see there is an amendment no. 11, dated March 6, 1963. I see that very plainly. On the face of it, it says "effective immediately on all matters." "All matters" must include more than having addresses. I think the hon. member would consider me naive indeed if I were to conclude these were only lists of addresses.
I have in my hand the Conservative list, by the way, and I notice that in Medicine Hat the consultant to the Postmaster General is Edwin W. Brunsden, care of Progressive Conservative campaign headquarters, South Railway street, Medicine Hat. He is to be addressed as "Dear Ted". The evidence is fairly clear, Mr. Chairman. Let us look at the Liberal list. I find that in Medicine Hat the consultant is to be Dave Broadfoot, of Redcliff, Alberta. For the benefit of hon.

members who do not already know, I may say that Dave Broadfoot was the Liberal candidate who ran against me. In Edmonton-Strathcona, the name of the consultant is John Decore. In Edmonton West, the consultant is J. Harper Prowse. He was also a defeated Liberal candidate. In the constituency of Lethbridge, the one right next to mine, the consultant is Martin Hoyt. He also was a defeated Liberal candidate.
I would ask the Postmaster General what it is about which he consults these gentlemen? Are they experts in the administration of the post office? Do they have some special knowledge about where post office buildings should be put? Do they have some knowledge of the general administration of a post office, or just what is the reason for having them on the list, and what kind of questions do you refer to them for their counsel? This is an important bit of information, Mr. Chairman. What kind of questions have been referred? So far as I am concerned, I do not know that any of these gentlemen in the constituencies about which I have information, have any special knowledge that would be important to the Postmaster General in the operations of the Post Office Department.
As a matter of fact, the results of the elections would seem to indicate these gentlemen did not even have a high degree of public support. They were not only defeated, but they were away down the list in being defeated. As I have said, Mr. Chairman, this kind of operation belongs to an age long past. The Liberal government and the Postmaster General in particular would be well advised to recognize that we have moved out of that era where this political patronage was an asset to a political party.
During the election campaign of 1957, and for a number of years prior to that, the Liberal candidate of that time used a great deal of his time, and in fact most of his campaign was based on being present at the opening of post offices and federal buildings throughout the constituency. He had no hesitation about making it evident that, as Liberal candidate, he got in touch with the Liberal government of that day and that credit should be given to him for getting the building. This was true of places like Taber, Brooks, and others about which I know. He was at the official opening and made it abundantly clear he was instrumental in seeing that the people got these buildings.
I want the Postmaster General-I see the Minister of Public Works is here too-to know that the electorate in the constituency resented it, rather than giving him credit for it. This pursuit of political patronage was not an asset but was a liability. I am not suggesting to the Minister of Public Works that
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this sort of thing is going on now. I am just telling him what happened at that time. Even at that time, this kind of patronage was a liability rather than an asset. The candidate's vote went down substantially after he engaged in this kind of activity.
I do not want to take a lot more time of the committee, Mr. Chairman. We have these lists. I hope the Postmaster General will resolve now that he is going to destroy these lists and use the officials within his department who are supposed to have some knowledge of the administration of the department when he needs advice. I can understand the frustration of some of the officials, the regional officials of the Post Office Department, when they try to do something on the basis of what is right and what is in keeping with good administration, only to be overridden roughshod by some political consultant who may not agree with what they are trying to do.


An hon. Member:: A political hack.


Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson: Hack is the word. I say in all kindness to the Postmaster General that if he can get himself to change his attitude towards this political patronage and recognize that this is nearly 1964 and this kind of patronage is no longer any good, even for practical politics, then perhaps we can have good, solid administration of the Post Office Department. On the other hand, if he intends to pursue this business in the way he has, and in the way it has been done by almost all federal governments in the past, then I think we should have an investigation into the department. I think, too, that if he persists in pursuing this kind of administration, perhaps Canada would be better off if we had a different Postmaster General.


David Réal Caouette: Mr. Chairman, we are considering at present the estimates of a fairly important department, namely the Post Office Department, and the minister in charge is well-known to me since we were colleagues from 1946 to 1949. At that time, the Postmaster General (Mr. Denis) was a member of the famous "Little Chicago" sitting to the right of the Speaker, at this end of the chamber. The present premier of Quebec also belonged to that group.
We are happy to see that the minister has matured intellectually since then. At least, he seems to take his office seriously and I am happy to see him at the head of such an important department.
Mr. Chairman, there are only 15 items for this department; the estimates amount to $191,166,000 and the number of postal workers is 56,371.

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Mr. Chairman, one has to agree that 15 items are not too many tor such an important department. As a matter of fact, this reminds somewhat of the story to the guy who asked for a bowl of pea soup in a restaurant. When the soup was served to him, he noticed that there were only three peas in his plate. He called the owner of the place and asked him: "Tell me, where do you buy those peas?" The owner said: "Why do you ask?" And the man replied: "I never saw three peas that made so much juice."
As tor me, Mr. Chairman, I never saw 15 items involving so many expenditures. It is indeed a remarkable thing.
Mr. Chairman, the previous speakers have mentioned the high degree of patronage dispensed in the Post Office Department. I will not accuse the minister himself of dispensing patronage, but I will surely blame the system and those who allow this system to be maintained not only within the Post Office Department but also in others.
As for the Post Office Department, I have already called the attention of the minister on the patronage dispensed in my constituency and after having asked a copy of the correspondence exchanged between an employee of the Post Office Department and my constituents, I received copy of letters from the employment division, the contract assessment and tenders division of the Post Office Department.
Mr. Chairman, I have here the correspondence exchanged since the month of May, that is since this government came into office, and October 25 last, that is less than a month and a half ago, between the department and Mr. Stephen Cuddihy, ex-Liberal candidate defeated by more than 11,000 votes on April 8 last.
Mr. Stephen Cuddihy is a young lawyer aged 26 or 27, who knows absolutely nothing about postal administration. And now the high officials of the postal department write to him to advise him that the appointment of Mr. Hector Villeneuve as postmaster at Rapide Sept was confirmed on October 25, 1963. What does a Rouyn lawyer care about the appointment of Mr. Villeneuve as postmaster? And that letter is signed by Mr. DeGaspe Tache, acting director of personnel.
If Mr. A. DeGaspe Tache, high official at the Post Office Department, is not aware yet of the fact that Real Caouette is the member for the riding of Villeneuve, I take it upon myself to let him know. I will also draw his attention to the fact that all federal hon. members, whether they are from the New Democratic, the Conservative or the Social Credit parties, are entitled to know what is going on in their riding, and that even if high officials of the department are con-

cerned, whether it is Mr. A. DeGaspe Tache or Mr. R. A. Cathro, director of transport- whatever the names are-this sort of patronage must stop.
The people in my riding pay taxes to the federal government as much as the voters in the Postmaster General's riding, and the onus does not lie upon the high officials of the Post Office Department to decide who must pull the wires in a riding, on behalf of a political party, whatever it is. We must be more respectful of the principles of democracy, if we boast of living in a democratic country, because a democratic country is ruled by a government of the people, elected by the people and for the people. We must show some respect at least to those who are elected by the people.
On September 25, 1963, Mr. R. A. Cathro writes once again to Mr. Stephen Cuddihy:
Mr. Sylvio Pilotte, postal contractor on rural route No. 1, Val Senneville, has requested a salary increase.
Following a complete review, it has been established that $1,750 would be a fair salary for the work involved. This would represent a yearly increase of $175.
Consequently, the department intends to increase Mr. Pilotte's salary from $1,575 to $1,750 a year, as from October 1, 1963.
Yours truly,
R. A. Cathro Director of Transport
What does that matter to Stephen Cuddihy?
What has he got to do with that?
What has notary Morin of Val d'Or got to do in the management of the postal service?
But it goes even further, and I continue. I shall not quote all the letters, but I have one dated September 23, 1963, from Mr. DeGaspe Tache to Mr. Stephen Cuddihy, another dated September 9, 1963, from Mr. Cathro to Mr. Stephen Cuddihy, the latter concerning Mr. Ulysse Charette, of Sullivan, stating that his salary will be increased by $205.64 a year.
I have another letter written by Mr. Cathro to Mr. Cuddihy, on May 31, 1963. It is strange that Mr. Cathro never wrote me to ask for information or to make suggestions to me about the riding of Villeneuve.


An hon. Member:: Because he was never asked for that.


David Réal Caouette: He was never asked for that.
I have a still better one, dated September 5, 1963:
Mr. Stephen Cuddihy 90 Perreault East Rouyn, P.Q.
Dear Sir,
On August 24, 1963, we had to close down sub-office No. 1 which was situated at 607 Murdoch (Blue Sundries), because Mrs. Cotnoir, the postmistress, sold her store.

That small office was well situated to accommodate patrons from the western part of town who, mostly, must travel one mile to go to the main post office.
Those far-away patrons miss their small post office and make it clear to us in no uncertain terms and in the most democratic way, by circulating a petition on which we have about 90 names.
Mr. Cuddihy, I ask you to try and do something for them. I shall be pleased to open a new post office when I have the authorization.
If you require further information, do not hesitate to contact the undersigned.
J. C. I.anglois Postmaster Noranda, P.Q.
The very person who gave tender forms to Mr. Cuddihy last fall for the repainting of mailboxes in the limits of Noranda. You remember that he gave him three tender forms and said to him: hand these to your friends and manage so that the one who deserves a favour from the government gets the contract. Things happened that way and those tender forms were presented to a garageman in Rouyn, his manager and his first salesman, who were asked to submit a tender at the Noranda post office, to Mr. Langlois.
Mr. Chairman, such behaviour should be stigmatized and those who put such methods into practice should be held up to public scorn. That is what I am doing at the present time in this house.
I am not surprised that the hon. member for Levis (Mr. Guay) does not understand those words, as he never understands anything.
Mr. Chairman, on September 3, 1963, Mr. Cathro wrote to Mr. Theo Beaudry and to Mr. Stephen Cuddihy, two former Liberal candidates:
Service: Louvicourt and Senneterre, contractor: Narcisse Grand'Maison, price:	$3,588.80 a year,
expiring date: December 31, 1963.
The contract in connection with the above-mentioned service expires on the specified date.
The department is ready to renew the contract at the present rate of payment, for another period of four years.
For four years, without calling tenders, at the request of former Liberal candidates from Chapleau and from Villeneuve.
The list goes on. On August 30, 1963, Mr. Cathro writes again to Mr. Stephen Cuddihy in connection with Duparquet.
On August 15, 1963, Mr. Cathro wrote to Mr. Stephen Cuddihy:
Service: Rouyn and La Sarre H.S., contractor: Mr. Rene Marchand.
The department accepts once more to renew the contract as of December 31, 1963.
On June 28, 1963, Mr. Cathro writes to Mr. Cuddihy:
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Service: Amos and Val d'Or, contractor: Abitibl Provincial Inc., price: $1,983.63 a year, expiring date: September 30, 1963.
-The department would be willing to renew the contract at the present rate for a further period of four years-
On June 10, 1963, Mr. Cathro sent another letter to Stephen Cuddihy:
Service: Val d'Or, R.R. No. 1, contractor: G. Henri Tremblay, price: $1,550. a year.
Expiring date: September 30, 1965-
In that case, the department is again willing to renew the contract.
This is what Mr. Cathro wrote to Mr. Stephen Cuddihy on June 3, 1963:
Service:	Val d'Or and parcel post delivery,
contractor: Mrs. J. Rousseau-Rivard, 856 Fourth avenue, Val d'Or, Que., price: 10 cents per item-
I should like to draw the minister's attention to the price of 10 cents an item which is paid to those who handle parcel post delivery to residences and places of business. In my opinion, that is not enough. The price paid is far from being sufficient since the contractors get into debt, especially in a district like ours where the climate is fairly harsh.
Along the same lines, the department pays only $1,150 for mail transportation to settlements like Mont Brun. That is not enough; the price should be raised by $200 at least.
Mr. Chairman, a few minutes ago, we were talking about two lists of consultants, that of the Conservatives and that of the Liberals. The Liberal consultant in the riding of Villeneuve is Stephen Cuddihy. There is no mistake about that since his name appears on the list which also states that the member of parliament is Real Caouette who may be addressed familiarly in all correspondence. That is the close relationship I have with the minister-


Mr. Turner:: Quite an honour.


David Réal Caouette: Indeed.
Mr. Chairman, the list of consultants is obviously a patronage list. Furthermore, I would say that there is no difference in that respect between the Conservatives and the Liberals. The former did exactly the same thing as the present government. Thus, last year, the consultant in the riding of Villeneuve was Mr. Cloutier, a former Conservative candidate. The Conservatives wrote letters and acted just like the Liberals are doing now.
Mr. Chairman, we can understand members having personal friends in their constituency. However, we do not believe the Canadian people should pay the costs for political patronage. That a well-known man should be favoured instead of another one, prices being equal, there is nothing to say

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against that. But there are lots of small contracts, of small jobs, which are authorized without public tenders. That is where, it appears, political patronage is practised to the greatest extent.
If we make the total, we find that tremendous amounts are spent to the advantage of friends of the government. I do not say the Liberals only practise that policy, for the Conservatives did exactly the same thing. Besides, the estimates of the Post Office Department we are discussing-the Postmaster General mentioned that in his opening remarks-were not prepared by the present government, but by the former government, that is by the Conservatives. Those are the estimates we are asked to pass today.
When the Conservatives attack the Liberals, after having done exactly the same thing, I do not believe very much in their sincerity.
A while ago the hon. member for St. Mary (Mr. Valade) tried to explain the difference between the list of the Liberals and that of the Conservatives. In fact, he blundered thoroughly and his explanations did not stand to reason. We had proof of political patronage during the Conservative administration, as we have, today, under the Liberal government, with letters from the Post Office Department providing for the distribution, for instance, of mail contracts and the openings of post offices through the representative of the party in office in the constituencies concerned.
Mr. Chairman, I strongly object to such a way of doing things in our counties. We have not been elected to parliament to play politics, we have been elected to represent our respective electors, whether they voted Liberal, Conservative, Social Credit or New Democratic party.
Mr. Chairman, those people are worthy of respect and I think the fairest procedure for any department is to keep the member of parliament aware of what is going on in his constituency, of the projects which are to be carried out. Then, we could boast that we have democracy.
But if the government has the right to select his supporters and ignore the opposition parties, I wonder what difference there is between being red in Ottawa and red in Moscow-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


David Réal Caouette: -where no one has the right to live, nor to give his opinion and where opposition is not tolerated.
The government has the responsibility to respect the basic principles of democracy.

Those principles consist in respecting those who were duly and legally chosen by their electors.
Those are the observations I had to make and the suggestions I wanted to offer to the Postmaster General whom I have known for many years.
I know he is a Liberal through and through who flaunts the colour he represents, but he is also a gentleman and as I said at the beginning of my remarks, I never try to attack men as men, but rather to criticize systems.
I understand that we cannot reach perfection, neither with the present Postmaster General nor with those who will succeed or have preceded him, but one must try for perfection so as to reach a higher level, to come to a better understanding and a greater mutual respect.
In closing I will say that we are prepared to vote the estimates of the Post Office Department and that we are prepared to state, if other parties agree that there be no more speakers-in order to speed up the adoption of those estimates-we, in this corner of the house, will not have any other speaker this afternoon.
However, if others are to rise, then we will follow suit. On the other hand, we are ready to co-operate so as to vote those estimates as soon as possible.


Mr. Winkler:: Mr. Chairman, although I appreciate the offer just made by the hon. member for Villeneuve and assure him through you, sir, that I will be extremely brief, I feel it is my duty to mention a few points at this stage of the minister's presentation. I must say at once that I have a very high regard for the officials of the Post Office Department, the people who do the work of the department in all its various branches. They have been extremely courteous so far as I am concerned and I feel this cannot, at this particular time, go unnoticed or unmentioned.
In referring to the speakers who have preceded me, Mr. Chairman, I should mention this particular point. I do not think too many of us in the house doubt for one moment that degrees of patronage are probably practised in any government. It is not the existence of the minister's list, that I had the privilege of producing, that I disagree with, although I am opposed to such practices and I do not care who carries them out. What I am opposed to, and what I object to, is the way the minister misled this house. We can think of cases in other countries where ministers of the crown have resigned for this sort of thing. Recently in Great Britain, for example, for statements that I would say

were of no greater consequence or significance, the minister in question was not forced to resign-although perhaps he was forced to resign-but resigned of his own choosing. If we go back to the days of Hugh Dalton we recall that that minister resigned of his own accord. There are other similar situations, of course.
The point is that it is a matter of principle. If the principle cannot be upheld by the members of this chamber, then it is high time that the people took a good look at those occupying the treasury benches. In my estimation the matter was so serious that at the time the situation arose I requested that the minister resign his seat. This did not happen, of course. The Prime Minister did not see fit to remove him either. Therefore the Prime Minister must also take responsibility for this particular incident.
I listened with interest to the hon. member for Danforth. He made many points in his address which I thought were fair and well directed. I will not reiterate them, but in my opinion he made some very fair suggestions in his remarks. Along the lines of what the hon. member had to say there is the matter of consideration for people in contract post offices, not only with regard to the standard of remuneration they receive for their premises and their efforts, but also from the point of view that it is high time we gave some consideration to some method of giving them a holiday period each year, whether it be a week or two weeks. I believe this matter deserves consideration.
The hon. member for Danforth also referred to discrimination within the department. I too believe this exists. I could give examples at length but I will only mention two cases. I had more reason for criticizing the minister, on the occasion of the production of the list, than that particular incident. The case I am about to refer to caused me much greater anguish. I would ask him to note the date. On April 9 of this year in one of the areas in my constituency a lady who occupied the position of junior clerk was relieved of her position, because of a situation that existed in her family the day before, with regard to certain efforts put forth in the conduct of the election on that day. I might say that in this case political patronage more or less backfired. She was engaged by the Grits in 1955, and because her husband was out of work he was given a very minor task on April 8 which resulted in the action taken in regard to her on April 9. The fact is that when I complained about the situation she was re-engaged.
However, not too many weeks passed before the position was made vacant again,
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and the job was transferred for listing under the civil service commission. I have no objection at all to the job being put under the civil service commission, but with this qualification: If it is the function of the Post Office Department to practise patronage and eliminate people who have a good history of service to the people of Canada in the department, then it is high time something were done, not so much in the department, but with regard to the minister himself; because I feel that is where the direction came from.
I also have a letter dated December 15 from the city or town, whichever category it enjoys, of Oakville. It is from a Canadian citizen and in his letter he refers to the situation in that post office by saying that it is the most disdainful thing that has happened in that community in the writer's memory. He states that Miss Jean Duncan worked in the government post office for nearly 20 years, that she was fired last July, and that she is a very capable and friendly coloured girl. He states it is the unanimous opinion of everyone to whom he had spoken regarding the matter that it is racial discrimination at its very worst. Although this despicable event took place last July the writer only learned of it recently, but hopes something can be done. He says he wrote to-and here I shall say "the Liberal member" so as not to involve him directly, who replied that he could do absolutely nothing.
I suggest to the minister that this case deserves a little consideration as well. There is one other point I should like to make before I resume my seat having to do with the statement of the minister regarding new issues of stamps next year. I wonder whether the minister has considered issuing a stamp, as recommended by the Royal Canadian Legion, to commemorate Remembrance day. The minister described some of the stamps to be issued and the occasions involved, and I believe this is one that the minister should consider. I would expect that representations have probably been made to him. If not, I make this request on behalf of this organization at this time. Before I resume my seat I should like to wish the minister well in his department and say to him "bon voyage".


John Carr Munro: Mr. Chairman, I am only going to speak for a very few minutes in order to comment on some of the remarks that have been made in the house this afternoon. In the short time I have been a member of the house, a little over a year, I cannot recall any other occasion when there has been such hypocrisy as was practised in the house this

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afternoon. We have heard from all the statesmen this afternoon. We have heard the hon. member for St. Mary talk about the deplorable practice of patronage. We have also heard the hon. member for Danforth and the hon. member for Villeneuve speak in similar vein, all of them members of such sterling character that they would resist the common temptations to which we all succumb now and then. We have also heard from the hon. member for Grey-Bruce-


Georges-J. Valade: Mr. Chairman, I rise on a question of privilege.


John Carr Munro: -and I imagine we are going to hear from-


Georges-J. Valade: Mr. Chairman, I rise on a question of privilege.


The Deputy Chairman:: Is the hon. member rising on a question of privilege?


Georges-J. Valade: I should say a point of order. I am sure the hon. member has made a slip of the tongue when he has referred to the hypocrisy of certain members this afternoon. I do not think this is quite parliamentary. I should like him to revise that word because if he wants to talk about hypocrisy I will reply to him quickly.


John Carr Munro: Mr. Chairman, the only comment I wish to make is that I could understand such an objection coming from other members of the house, but after the personal abuse and vindictiveness this particular member heaped upon the Postmaster General not more than three quarters of an hour ago it seems very strange that he should raise a question of privilege at this time. However, to save the time of the house I am quite prepared to change "hypocrisy" to "exercise in insincerity" if that will please the hon. member any better.


Mr. Nowlan:: It may not be better, but it is parliamentary.


John Carr Munro: I suppose we are going to hear the issue of patronage ragged to death for the rest of the afternoon. In my opinion this involves a greater waste of time, so far as the taxpayers are concerned, than the picayune patronage in lists like these. I will be the first to concede also that waving these lists, on which the name of practically every member of the house is to be found, outside of the minority parties, is also a complete waste of time.


Mr. Peters:: Our hands are clean.


John Carr Munro: I would be the last to defend patronage. I think that the situation certainly calls for a review. It may be that so far as
[Mr. Munro.1
our own party and the official opposition are concerned the issue of patronage should be resolved by deciding to do away with it. But until it is resolved it certainly seems strange that it should be laid at the doorstep of one particular cabinet minister and that he should be pilloried when all of us, except those in the minority parties, have participated in this practice in years gone by.
Therefore I hope that for the rest of the afternoon we can be spared hearing the saints talk about the terrible evils of patronage as it has been practised in the Post Office Department. Some of my friends in the official opposition have been here longer than I have and they will know how many letters one gets in a year, from the Postmaster General. As far as I am concerned, I do not believe we get very many, and they usually have to do with a postal station in one's area that probably pays so little you cannot find anybody to take the job anyway. Therefore I do not see why such an issue should be made of this matter. In many cases it is probably an assumption by a particular member of a duty which removes a headache from the department itself. But I do think the sooner we remove this practice the better. But when week after week members of the house, many of whom have been involved in this process and whose names appear on the list, get up and talk about patronage and its evils, and suggest it is confined to one party,


An hon. Member:: Sit down then.


John Carr Munro: The hon. member for Villeneuve is one of the members of a minority party which I cannot be convinced would be so superior that any administration he headed would be absolutely pure.
I should like to comment also on what I consider a rather unfair criticism, although the hon. member for Danforth had many constructive remarks to make. He was one of the few hon. members who did have constructive remarks to make. He referred to the question of collective bargaining rights and binding arbitration for postal employees. I stand to be corrected, but as far as I am aware this is a civil service matter. Certainly it is not an issue which can be laid at the doorstep of one cabinet minister rather than at the doorstep of the government as a whole. The hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre asked the Prime Minister a short time ago about the plank in our party's platform for the 1962 and 1963 elections with regard to collective bargaining rights and binding arbitration for civil servants. The Prime Minister indicated then that we were committed to the proposal and would bring it down in due course. We have been in office about

eight or nine months, so I think it is reasonable to allow the Prime Minister and the Liberal party to bring down this legislation sooner or later, instead of criticizing the minister of one particular department. This whole exercise about post office patronage reminds me of some of our more insincere members of the house. One hon. member receives quite a bit of publicity in connection with post office patronage and starts a bandwagon rolling. Then all of a sudden we find many in the house want to get on the bandwagon, too. The bandwagon is getting a little overcrowded and I think we are all beginning to look a little ridiculous. I hope the rest of the remarks which are to follow deal with some of the more pertinent aspects of the administration of the Post Office Department, rather than being continually surfeited with sanctimonious speeches about patronage.


Mr. Nielsen:: Mr. Chairman, my remarks will be very brief. I do not agree with the hon. member who spoke last, because I feel that if we take up the time of the committee discussing patronage in the post office, or in any other department, and if as a result of that discussion that practice is eliminated, then I think we have accomplished a great deal.


Mr. Chapdelaine:: Why did you not abolish it when you were in power, then?


Erik Nielsen: I do not care when the practice grew up. If it grew up in 1867 I think it is still a bad practice, and that has always been my position. If the Postmaster General looks at his department's files he will discover that I expressed the view on previous occasions that where public goods and services are involved every Canadian should be given the opportunity to tender for a contract. That was the practice followed in my constituency, and it has been followed since 1957. Not a contract went out without a bid being called for publicly, giving everyone the opportunity to bid regardless of what his politics were; and the lowest bidder got the contract. I did not speak on the estimates of the Minister of Public Works last night, but if he looks at his files I am sure he will find representations made by me to the same effect. If the Postmaster General would follow that practice we would not find instances, which I will describe briefly this evening, which are again arising in my constituency. As they arise in my constituency I am sure they also arise elsewhere. I am referring to instances where there has been a departure from the fair procedure of calling for these contracts by public tender.
I mentioned to the minister the other day the opening of the new post office at Ross
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River. I suggested to him that there was an instance where, instead of advertising for bids for the performance of this service, a selective procedure was adopted whereby only a certain carrier or carriers were asked to bid. The Postmaster General said at that time that he would look into it, and I hope that if he caught the matter before the contract was actually awarded he will have been able to revise the procedure and call for public tenders on that particular contract.
There have been other instances. In his opening remarks the Postmaster General said there was not one single breach of the Post Office Act in the administration of his department since he took over as Postmaster General. The Post Office Act, if it authorizes the procedures which I have described and will be describing in a moment or two, is nothing more or less than legalized patronage, which I think is wrong. If the Post Office Act is to blame, then it should be changed.
I should like to draw the attention of the minister to the sessional papers which were tabled in reply to a motion which I had put on the order paper, I believe No. 1,170, for all copies of correspondence between the post office department and the officials thereof, and Mr. Wylie and others in Whitehorse. In the correspondence tabled was a letter from the director of transportation dated October 24, 1963. This letter concerns a contract for the carrying of mail from Dawson Creek and Whitehorse. The total cost of the contract is not a trifling sum, as indicated by the hon. member who has just taken his seat; the total amount involved is $76,630 per year. I know that the Post Office Act authorizes the minister to renew a contract which expires after three or four years, but I want to make it clear that the procedure adopted in the Yukon, which I think should be adopted nationally, is that when those contracts expire new tenders should be called. Because in every case during the six years when the Conservative party were on the government side, when these contracts were called the government got the services for a cheaper price than the going rate at the time. With one single exception every one of these contracts was put out to public tender on expiration of the contract. The exception was a case in which I made representation on behalf of a Mr. George Simmons, because he happened to be the brother of the Liberal candidate who ran against me in 1957, and I did not want him to think that I had exercised a prerogative as a member of parliament to do him out of a contract just because he happened to be on the other side of the fence. If the minister examines the records he will find that when that contract

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did go out to public tender at the next expiration date the savings to the government were almost $4,000 per annum, and the incumbent, Mr. George Simmons, was the twelfth highest bidder. In other words, he was the highest bidder of the 12 who submitted bids, and the contract was let for something over $9,000 compared with well over $12,000 previously.
This $76,630 contract expires on March 31, 1964. The letter reads as follows:
The contract for this service expires on the date indicated.
That is, in March, 1964, so there is still time to do something about it.
The department proposes to issue instructions authorizing the renewal of the contract at the existing rate for a further period of four years.
That, I say, is wrong. Tenders should be called. There are other trucking companies on the highway which can compete with the existing holder of this contract and the minister will probably find that a saving to the taxpayer would result. The letter of the director of transportation goes on to say:
As this service operates in the electoral districts of Cariboo and Yukon, a copy of this letter is being sent to persons consulted for these constituencies.
I hope that these consultants, if they have any sense of fair play at all, will advise the minister that the fairest thing to do would be to call for public tenders so that all interested Canadians having transportation facilities on the Alaska highway may have an opportunity to bid on this contract.
There is another contract which expired on September 30, 1963. This contract, says the director of transportation in a letter of May 15, 1963, to Mr. Wylie in Whitehorse, expires on the day indicated, that is, on September 30, 1963. The amount of the contract is $8,954 per annum. Here is the rest of the letter:
The department proposes to issue instructions authorizing the renewal of the contract at the existing rate for a further period of four years.
Again, let me say the minister would probably save the Canadian taxpayer money if he were to send the contract out for public tender. Even more important is the question of principle. The guiding principle, surely, should be that all Canadians have a right to bid on contracts for the supply of goods and services to the public.
The hon. member who spoke last referred to hypocrisy in amended terms. Since the minister has failed to agree with me that he has found the information which I suggested to him would be found on his files, I want to read a letter I wrote on January 29, 1959. I do not know Mr. Pageau personally,

but he is one of the officials of the department with whom I had a good deal of correspondence during the six years before the government changed. Mr. Pageau will tell the minister of the true circumstances which have existed in the Yukon since I have been representing that region. When I have been advised by Mr. Pageau that a certain contract was expiring, and asking for my recommendations, I have in every instance, with the one exception I mentioned, written to him and asked him to send the contract out for public tender call. I said in writing to one of my local executives on January 29, 1959- and it was on or about that date that 1 wrote to Mr. Pageau to the same effect-
The Yukon Progressive Conservative association supports the proposition that when these mail contracts come up for renewal, they should go out to public tender so that all who are interested may have an equal opportunity to bid on them. As you know, this was not always so in the past and there are still some mail contracts in Yukon which have been automatically renewed, thus precluding the opportunity which all citizens in the Yukon have a right to expect, viz., the opportunity to bid on all public works on an equal basis. We have always stood for this principle which, I think you will agree, is a fair one.
This is the stand which I took and which I have taken since I was elected to represent the Yukon, and I think the minister would be well advised to revert to that practice. If he does not care to do so nationally, or if he has trouble with his own backbenchers over this aspect of patronage, then at least let him do me the courtesy of treating the people of the Yukon in an equal and fair fashion.
In addition, I should like to ask the minister a further question. I learned from this correspondence which has been tabled that the postmistress in Carmacks has been dismissed. I should like to know why. In the letter advising Mr. Wylie of the dismissal, the acting director of personnel states:
This is to inform you that instructions are being issued for a transfer of the Carmacks, Yukon, post office to Mrs. B. McKay as postmaster provided she possesses the necessary qualifications and can meet the requirements of the department.
I want to know if one of those qualifications is that she must be a Liberal.


An hon. Member:: Political fitness.


Erik Nielsen: Perhaps that is one of the qualifications. Most likely it is; I do not know. The people of Carmacks were getting good service. I dare say that if a petition were circulated, like the one which the hon. member for Hastings-Frontenac had sent to him, it would be found that the people of Carmacks were satisfied with the service they were getting. I should like to know why this lady was dismissed, and I should like to know

whether one of the qualifications of Mrs. McKay is that she is politically acceptable to the Postmaster General.
I have a further point to bring to the minister's attention. The wages that are paid to seasonal post office workers in the southern parts of Canada amount to 85 cents an hour. The wages paid to permanent personnel in the north are, of course, subject to supplementation by isolated post allowances; but these allowances do not apply to the seasonal staff earning 85 cents an hour. The same rate applies in the north. It was the hon. member for the Northwest Territories, who is also concerned about this, who drew the matter to my attention. If he speaks he may have something to say about it as well.
So I should like the minister to look into the question of those contracts. First, the Ross River contract. Why was that not put out to public tender, thus giving all Canadians an equal chance to bid in connection with this public service. The second was the contract for the carriage of mail between Dawson Creek and Whitehorse. The third was the contract for the carriage of mail between Whitehorse and Alaska Highway. That one, I assume, has already been awarded because it was on September 30, 1963, that it expired. I think I should also like to ask the minister to agree with my statement that in every case where contracts were called for public tender in the Yukon in the last six years there has been an actual saving in the taxpayers money by so doing.
I want to say a word or two about a matter referred to by the hon. member for Grey-Bruce. Patronage is a wrong principle on which to operate. I do not care whether it originated in 1867 or whether it was carried on throughout the whole of the years since that date. It should be dispensed with and disposed of by every government department, and there should be equal opportunity for all Canadians. I can remember a phrase which sticks in my mind, one of those phrases responsible for my getting into politics six or seven years ago. It was: "Fairness to all and favours to none". That is a sound principle and one which should be followed in all government activities. The minister's biggest single shortcoming in connection with this whole business of the production of lists and the question of patronage was the fact that he told the house when the matter was first referred to that there were no such lists. Then, on subsequent occasions, he admitted the existence of the list. Finally, belatedly, he produced the list. I feel that the minister has misled the members of the house, as the hon. member for Grey-Bruce put it. I think he should have resigned when it was suggested to him.
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Certainly, not only the Prime Minister but all the occupants of the treasury benches are implicated. Surely it is not proper conduct for any member occupying the treasury benches to say that something does not exist which actually does exist. Not only did he deny the existence of the list, but when he finally admitted its existence he actually tabled it. This sort of conduct falls a good deal short of what I feel Canadians expect of a minister. Certainly, the tenure of the Postmaster General must be short indeed. I think his days are numbered. I feel the Prime Minister should have taken some action at the time when it became apparent the minister had misled the house. I certainly do not expect to see the Postmaster General after Christmas. I do say that, brief as the minister's stay in the department might have been, he cannot in all conscience expect to remain there after Christmas. I should like, therefore, to wish the minister bon voyage and Merry Christmas.


Mr. Paul:: Mr. Chairman, it is with the utmost sincerity that, first, I wish to congratulate the minister for having been appointed to the high post he now occupies.
I have many personal reasons to offer him my congratulations. To begin with, he was born in my constituency, where the Denis family is highly thought of, in addition to being held in great respect by your humble servant.
I have no intention of delaying the adoption of the Post Office estimates, but, very briefly, I should like to bring up three points about which I would appreciate his opinion or that of the officials of his department. Here, incidentally, I want to congratulate those people for the excellent job they are doing and the efforts they are making to continually improve the postal service throughout the country.
First of all, I would like to tell the Postmaster General about the numerous protests we received, in particular from citizens in the province of Quebec, against the possible removal of the words "postes" and "postage" from the stamps. I believe that many members received such protests from all corners of the province.
In my opinion, there is an advantage to keeping this visible proof of bilingualism in Canada. I wonder if the hon. minister could review that decision, whether it was taken by him or by officials in his department. I am sure also that his colleagues in the Liberal party made representations to him in that respect. It is to be hoped that no change will be made in the printing of the stamps and

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that those inscriptions will remain as they are now.
I should also like to ask the minister whether it would not be possible to suggest to the officials of his department to take into consideration, when assessing the value of mail contracts, not only the route but also the volume of mail to be delivered.
For a few years now, the Postmaster General has always considered distance as a primary factor in the case of a letter carrier but I think that today, in view of the ever-increasing volume of circulars and printed matter of all sorts which has to be delivered by the carrier, the officials of the department should also take into consideration the time it takes him to deliver his mail.
The Post Office Department should also consider a reclassification of post offices, especially semi-staff offices, where revenue is less than $3,000. I submit that the department should take into consideration the continuous increase in the cost of living, municipal taxes, rents, heating and electricity, so that in estimating the salary to be paid a postmaster whose revenue is less than $3,000, allowance be made also of the cost of living and of the various items I have just mentioned. Moreover, allowance should be made of the work that the postmaster is required to do in order to give satisfaction to the people he must serve as a postmaster.
Those are, Mr. Chairman, the few remarks I intended to address to the minister. And since there are reports that this house might be deprived of the presence of the minister in the relatively near future, I hope that if he is going to leave us, he will at least go to a more quiet place than this house. If that should happen, one cannot but bid him goodbye and wish him every success.


Léon Balcer: Mr. Chairman, I should like to take a few moments to discuss a problem which, I think, is of interest to the house.
There are reports-and some people told me that it was a fact-that it was decided in the Social Credit party that every member of the house should give to the party coffers an amount of $3,000 taken out of their salaries. We have no objection to that at all. But I have heard that among them some had objected. I wonder if it is not the reason why some members of that party take liberties which, I think, are disgraceful, as far as the postal service is concerned.
I wish to refer more precisely to the fact that certain members take the liberty of using their franking privileges to distribute to Canadian taxpayers in certain constituencies their political propaganda. In this particular instance, it is about a publication of 50 pages or so, like this one, entitled

"Proposition de reformes monetaires, Credit social", which has been mailed by the hon. member for Charlevoix (Mr. Belanger).
I do not see any objection to the Social Credit trying to save its sinking boat. However, Mr. Chairman, I should not like the Canadian taxpayer to pay for that propaganda.
May I quote the note which Mr. Antoine Belanger, member of parliament for Charlevoix, has forwarded to hundreds of residents of the constituency of Charlevoix-Saguenay together with a copy of a publication like this one.
After receiving one of those booklets a voter in the riding of Charlevoix asked me to protest in the house, if you please, and to tell the member for Charlevoix that if he insisted on annoying people with such propaganda, the least he could do would be to stop making them pay for this mail service.
Mr. Chairman, this session is already well advanced, otherwise, I feel that the hon. member should be called before the committee on privileges and elections of this house. However, since it is getting late, I hope he will note these protests and immediately stop using public funds and the postage-free mailing service for such doubtful political proga-ganda as that of the Social Credit party.
I see that my hon. friends opposite seem to have fun because I accuse the members of the Social Credit party. Well, hon. members opposite should indeed feel that the hat fits them also, because they have also been guilty of this unfairness to the taxpayers.


Mr. Marcoux:: Mr. Chairman, I rise on a question of privilege. I should ask the hon. member for Three Rivers to alter part of his last statement, and that is to replace the name "Social Credit" by the expression "Ralliement Creditistes."


Léon Balcer: It is with great pleasure that I accept that suggestion.


David Réal Caouette: Mr. Chairman, I also rise on a question of privilege. The hon. member for Three Rivers just quoted a Social Credit pamphlet distributed by the hon. member for Charlevoix (Mr. Belanger).


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: At the expense of the state.


David Réal Caouette: I bring to the attention of the house the fact there is a difference between doctrine publicity mailed by the hon. member for Charlevoix and the purely political propaganda distributed at the expense of the Canadian taxpayers by the Conservatives when they were in power.


Lucien Lamoureux: I am sure the hon. members will agree that there is no question of privilege here and I ask the hon. member for Three Rivers to continue.


Léon Balcer: If it was done in the past, that is no excuse to do it now.
The hon. member for Villeneuve proved nothing and only made a wild charge. I have here a letter from the hon. member for Charlevoix. I think it is scandalous to use Canadian public funds for such propaganda.
As for our hon. friends opposite, I should simply like to call their attention to those intriguing letters sent all over the province. It is an insult for the Canadian people when the hon. member for Terrebonne (Mr. Cadieux) speaks about a great member of parliament, the hon. member for Dollard (Mr. Rouleau), chairman of the caucus, and reports on all his activities. Reference is also made to the Prime Minister and the newspapers of this country are asked to use that propaganda paper to heave this country out of the mess it is in.
Indeed, the time has come to put a stop to such practices. Let us think of the taxpayer and do away with such practices.


Frank Howard: Mr. Chairman, through you I would like to say to the minister that a few years ago I enjoyed very much participating with him in another activity when he was the captain of a bowling team of which I was a member. He is a good bowler; in fact he is a better bowler than he is a Postmaster General, if his first few months in office are any indication.


Azellus Denis: I am improving every day.


Frank Howard: The minister says he is improving every day. If he improves every day as a bowler that is not possible, because in the first place he is a prime bowler; but if he says he is improving every day as a Postmaster General, all I say is that he cannot do anything else but go up, when he is at the bottom. However, I do hope that the remarks about his departure are not well founded and that he stays with the government, with his present post, so that in time to come we can see whether or not he and his government do improve.
Unfortunately, the hon. member for Hamilton East does not appear to be in the chamber, but I would like to make a few comments about his remarks. Initially let me say I agree with them, in so far as conduct of this kind is concerned. It makes me wonder, though, whether the hon. member for Hamilton East, and others of his party, would have the same views if the Conservatives had not had the discretion to disclose the patronage or consultant list in the first place. But once it has been disclosed, I think he tried to make the best of an awkward situation.
I do not want to deal with that list in any way at all, except to attempt to be helpful
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to the Postmaster General. I would say to him that if he is going to maintain such a list of consultants, and if he wants to use that list for greater efficiency in the operation of his department, I would be very happy if he would consult with me about the person on that list from Skeena, because I can name many more competent people than the one he has presently listed.
The person on the list is neither able, competent nor interested in assisting any of the activities of the office of the Postmaster General and, apart from that, he does not live in the riding, but rather in Duncan on Vancouver island, and has relatively little contact with the constituency. Now, he might make a good consultant for my hon. friend from Nanaimo-Cowichan-The Islands, if he so desires, but I would be happy to talk privately with the minister, or express publicly now, alternate consultants for Skeena if the minister wishes me to help him.
I should like to confine the remainder of my remarks to one phase of the activities of the department which was very disturbing to many members of parliament when it was first instituted. I am referring to the so-called spy system in some of the post offices throughout the country, the system whereby closed circuit television cameras are used-if that is the mechanism that is used-and one-way mirrors or peepholes to permit officials of the department to spy upon the activities of other employees in the department in the functions that they carry out during their work day.
This of course is automatically an invasion of the right of an individual to privacy. It casts serious reflection and doubts upon the honesty of employees in the minister's department, and it is even more nefarious than that when these mechanisms for spying are installed in the washrooms in some post offices.


An hon. Member:: Male or female?


Frank Howard: My hon. friend will have to ask the Postmaster General about that point.


An hon. Member:: How do you know they exist?


Frank Howard: I know they exist because I take the word of members of the cabinet who have proclaimed in this house that they do exist, and the word of people in the Post Office Department to whom I have spoken and who say they exist. But the interjection by the hon. member opposite about whether these are placed in male or female washrooms, or both, does raise the question of what sort of people are employed to use these spying mechanisms, and what is the classification given by the civil service commission to individuals within the post office structure-

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who actually do the spying into washrooms in the department, spying on the activities of the individuals who use the washroom facilities. There are some who have particular aptitudes which one might class as voyeuristic, and who might fit well into this category. But whether or not people with perverted ideas about what should take place in washrooms are employed in using these spying mechanisms, it should be disclosed. I understand from the communications that have been sent to me, and from discussions I have had with employees, that they are concerned about two things. They are concerned (1), about the system of spying upon them, because it is an invasion of their privacy, especially when it takes place in washrooms; and (2), they are concerned about the type of individual or just who it is who is watching them, as Big Brother is supposed to watch people, through peepholes or one-way mirrors to see what is taking place there. I think it is a regrettable situation that the Post Office Department has to engage in this sort of activity, which casts doubt upon the honesty of all the employees concerned and places them under a continual, daily cloud of suspicion even in so far as their most private moments are concerned.
I now wish to turn to another matter, Mr. Chairman. I have had a number of exchanges of correspondence with the minister about individual, local problems that exist in Skeena. I do not want to relate them all now to the minister or the committee, or place them on Hansard, so far as the pertinent details are concerned; but I do wish to make general reference to the fact that we have in the riding of Skeena communities which have a once a month postal service; once every month, in some of the communities, mail is delivered and once a month it is taken out again. This means that people often have to wait a month or a month and a half before they can deal adequately with any piece of correspondence. I am sure that people who are used to getting mail delivered on a daily basis would, if they just reflected on this and thought how it would be if their mail were delivered on a monthly basis, realize the inconvenience that exists for these people. In this enlightened day I think that to continue a system which has been in existence for many years now, namely mail delivery on a once a month basis to communities in this nation, is an unconscionable thing.
We have other communities in which the regularity of mail, as the minister knows, is twice a month, or on a two weeks basis. That is only half as bad as it is on the basis of *once a month. We have situations in which mail cannot be delivered directly from one point to another, but you can look across the water and see the community to which

you want a letter delivered. In spite of the proximity, you find it is impossible to put a letter in the mail and have it carried across perhaps two or three miles of water, even though a boat goes every day. You find it cannot be delivered to the other point directly, but instead it has to go 500 miles by air to Vancouver, wait in Vancouver overnight, be put on exactly the same plane that took it there the day before, and be brought the 500 miles back again to be delivered to a place that, as I say, you can look across two or three miles of water and see.
I think this is an unfair imposition upon people who happen to live in communities which are relatively more isolated than, say, large urban cities such as Montreal, Ottawa, or any of the other many, many communities and municipalities in Canada. I do not want to put all these things on the public record item by item or relate them orally to the minister now. We have had correspondence about them. The answer I received from the minister, though beautifully phrased and encompassing an entire page, winds up really saying that no change is going to be made to correct this situation. While I have communicated with the minister about this and intend to do so again, at this stage I wish only to ask him orally to please do something to correct this situation. If in this day and age people have to wait a month at a time to deal with their correspondence, it is a sad situation. They would like to see this matter straightened out, and I am sure the minister would also. If he would apply himself as assiduously to this question of providing adequate mail services to these relatively isolated and small communities as he applied himself to the job when he was captain of the bowling team of which I was a member, this problem would be solved before the end of the year.


Guy Marcoux: Mr. Chairman, I was happy to hear the hon. member for Hamilton East (Mr. Munro) state a while ago that the names of members from third parties do not appear on the patronage lists. In fact, I noticed that we are not on the list of the chairman of committees nor on that of the deputy chairman of committees either because we had to wait until a number of members had concluded their remarks before we could have the floor ourselves. Anyhow, we do not complain about that because our conscience is clear since we are not included in any list.
Mr. Chairman, I think the Postmaster General's (Mr. Denis) ordeal is practically over. I shall be brief since, unlike the hon. member for Villeneuve (Mr. Caouette), we did not have the privilege of securing official

correspondence. We believe there has been a leak somewhere, but we do not know where.


Mr. Belanger:: It was simply given by the government.


Guy Marcoux: Mr. Chairman, I am told that it was simply given by the government. I am well pleased-


Louis-Philippe-Antoine Bélanger: All you had to do was to ask for it, by putting a notice of motion on the order paper.


Guy Marcoux: Mr. Chairman, when I
phoned my wife last night, I learned that someone who had asked for a letter of introduction during the weekend wished to have another letter. I must say that this letter was not to be sent to the Post Office Department, but rather to the Department of Transport-at least, I believe that it was to be sent to the Department of Transport; any way, it was not for the Post Office Department.
Finally, it appears that when the individual in question came to apply for a job, another letter was asked of him because the one he had was not good. They suggested he obtain a letter from the Liberal member in the constituency. Then, for the first time, I learned it was possible to have two kinds of members in my constituency: the member who was elected under the Social Credit tag, and another one who was supposed to have been elected under the Liberal tag.
And they even insisted to give his name. When it was mentioned it was lawyer Ovide Laflamme, my wife understood immediately it was not the Liberal member for the constituency, but the defeated Liberal candidate. I hope this elector was lucky enough to obtain a letter from the defeated candidate, since he was really in need. As far as I am concerned, I thought I could have helped in recommending him. I hope my hon. opponent agreed to give him a letter, so that he could obtain the job in question, since the recommendation from the member does not seem sufficient.
Mr. Chairman, I do not intend to insist too much on the question of patronage, since it is currently discussed, and is a state of affairs of which everybody is aware. We are still in the era of the "believe or die", when qualifications are more often based on political allegiance or existing lists than ability to fill the job.
I think it is time to put a stop to such a procedure, especially as members on both sides of the house spoke against that state of affairs, and I see no reason why the government should not decide, once and for all, to do away with those lists, or at least place them
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in secure places, so that the matter is not constantly heard of in the House of Commons.
Mr. Chairman, I wish to deal briefly with a problem concerning the Postmaster General.
A while ago, mention was made of new control or spying devices being used in the Post Office Department. I realize that such devices make it possible to spy, so to speak, into the private lives of many workers. However this does not necessarily mean that everybody is suspected. It simply means that all civil servants know there is a threat, a kind of sword of Damocles hanging over their heads, and that is for the purpose of preventing certain practices in use in the past. Maybe, it is a good thing, for fear is the beginning of wisdom. However, I hope that the department officials will never have to use those devices, since the employees know that they exist.
Mr. Chairman, I wish also to comment about the employees' efficiency rating. Naturally, the hon. member for Skeena (Mr. Howard) did not talk about that since it is the policy of a socialist government to have efficiency and efficiency rating. But I would say that efficiency rating is more often contrary to personal freedom than the means of protection which we now have, just as our buildings are equipped with protection devices against fire or against theft.
It is a question of protecting the employees who, being human, are liable to make mistakes or be guilty of some indiscretion.
In any event, the use of some efficiency norms interfere with personal freedom because the employees concerned are labelled beforehand by the officials in the department.
In fact, certain civil servants think that such part of the work must be done in so-many minutes, that the employee should classify so many letters in a minute, in a quarter of an hour, or in an hour, and, in order to know whether that employee does his job well, inspectors are placed not behind spying machines, but in galleries next to the employee's place of work. I say this is. really a derogation to human freedom, and I believe people who work efficiently should be trusted, especially when they work in an atmosphere where they have the feeling they are useful to the government and the public. I believe those people are able to do their work without always having inspectors watching them for efficiency.
I also wish to quote the case of certain extra workers hired for the Christmas season, for instance, sometimes through their member and sometimes through the defeated candidate, sometimes directly through the postmaster, which evidently may give rise to criticism. However, I wish to point out

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There are also additional employees. In my constituency, I have heard of people having worked on a part time basis and rendered great services and then being told, after a year, that they had to be replaced since their job was only temporary. And they were replaced by other workers at a lower salary, as the latter had no claim to the increase which had been granted to their predecessors. As I said, I do not think it is a matter of a man's efficiency but rather a matter of discrimination for various reasons unknown to me.
Before closing, I should like to remind the hon. member for the Yukon (Mr. Nielsen)- whom as I have learned recently has been nicknamed Yukon Eric-that the whole Post Office Act should be completely amended and not the minister's attitude, because the act authorizes the minister to renew contracts without calling tenders, provided he is satisfied with the performance under existing contracts. That, of course, is left to his discretion. If he does not want to renew a contract, he can call tenders.
I made a thorough study of the Post Office Act last year because several cases were referred to me where people had lost their contract following a call for tenders while others could not get a contract even when they made a bid because the previous *contract had been automatically renewed. I think it would be appropriate for parliament to take a look at the Post Office Act in order to put an end to that situation.
Before I resume my seat, I should like to wish good luck to the minister. No matter where he goes in the next few years, I am positive everybody would want to wish him well.


Mr. Perron:: Mr. Chairman, I also would have been very pleased to congratulate the Postmaster General. However, the few comments I intend to make would not justify such congratulations, and that is why I shall refrain from offering any.
I have no intention either of speaking about patronage-the word patronage seems to grate -on the ear of the hon. member for Hamilton East (Mr. Munro). I feel I have to speak of arrogance. One may be taxed with arrogance if, when duty-bound to inform somebody, he refrains from doing so by dodging the issue or hiding behind the rules.
At the beginning of October, in a speech I had described the Postmaster General as a

real champion of patronage within the Liberal party, and I think that title fits him like a glove.
Earlier, the hon. member for the Yukon indicated that when the matter of a list of consultants in the Post Office Department came up in the house, the minister answered that there was no patronage list but he admitted a week later that there was such a list of consultants. It was even suggested, in some quarters, following that change of mind, that this would almost call for a resignation and that, in all fairness, the Postmaster General should resign. Some newspapers even dared to ask for such a resignation.
I should like to tell the house that that was not the only time the Postmaster General was not accurate in his answers.
As reported on page 676 of Hansard I asked the Postmaster General the following question:


Hubert Badanai: Not as yet although tenders have been received and a recommendation made to the treasury board.
On page 3620 of Hansard for October 16, 1963, I asked question No. 1,220:
1.	Why was it necessary to start building the Beauceville post office again?
2.	Were the changes that have been carried out provided for in the plan originally accepted?
3.	Are the changes to the initial project expected to increase the cost?
4.	What is the estimated cost of the increased expenditures brought about by these changes?
5.	Why was the original project changed after it had been accepted?
Here is the answer given by the deputy postmaster general:
1.	Part of the structure had to be rebuilt due to an error in the plans.
2.	No.
3.	Yes.
4.	$2,450.
5.	Because, in the original plans, the floor level was too low as compared with the sidewalk level.
As reported on page 3743 of Hansard for October 18, 1963, I asked an oral question, following those answers. Here it is:
Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct my question to the Postmaster General, to whom I have given notice.
My question relates to the one bearing number G20, which appeared on the order paper and which has been answered.
What person or persons have been consulted for the choice of the architect responsible for the building of the Beauceville post office in the county of Beauce?
And here is the answer:
That is a question for the order paper-

Again I put on the order paper a series of questions which can be found at page 4669 of Hansard for November 13, 1963. Mr. Chairman, I wish to point out here that those questions were identical, in form as well as contents, to those asked by all the other members of the Ralliement Creditistes. All other members who had put similar questions got the appropriate answers with figures.
Here is question No. 1,428:
1.	How many contracts have been let, or for how many contracts have bids been called by the Post Office Department since April 8, 1963, tor the constituency of Beauce?
2.	Who were the bidders on these contracts?
3.	What were the bids of each of them?
4.	To whom were the contracts let?
5.	Who was responsible for distribution of tender forms?
The answers were as follows:
1. None. 2. Not applicable. 3. Not applicable. 4. Not applicable. 5. Not applicable.
I am the only one to have obtained such an answer. However, following the production of the list of consultants, I put another question asking for the tabling of documents. I have here the whole list of correspondence, as well as contracts reviewed from April 30, 1963 until November 1963.
I have here a written contract dated September 18, 1963, and sent to Mr. Jean-Paul Racine, in St. Honore de Shenley. I quote: Dear Mr. Racine,
A request for an increase in salary has been submitted by Mr. Joseph Gagnon, mail transportation contractor operating between St. Georges West and Vallee Junction.
The case having been carefully reviewed, it is felt that $1,800 would be a just retribution for the work done. That would represent an annual increase of $251.
Consequently, the department intends to bring up Mr. Gagnon's salary from $1,549 to $1,800 a year, as from September 1, 1963.
The list continues, and it is rather a long one. It is addressed to the former Liberal candidate in Beauce county, who gives us an official answer. Now, as recorded in Hansard of November 13, 1962, the minister says exactly the opposite, that is that there was no exchange of letters, no contracts let.
That is why I say that that he is hiding behind standing orders to avoid answering questions which are entitled to a clear, precise and exact answer; I feel that in the present instance, the minister does not deserve from me any of the congratulations which other hon. members have lavished upon him.
Those are the few remarks I wanted to make, and I was anxious to make them because I am the only one to have received such an answer to questions similar to those asked by other hon. members.
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If this is not a sort of patronage, then I think the word "arrogance" would be the most appropriate word for such a way of doing things on the part of the Postmaster General.
I heard the hon. member for Villeneuve say that the minister was, in the good old days, in 1946, a member of the Little Chicago in the house.
Well, in my opinion, the title I gave him in a speech I made in the house, in October, suited him perfectly.
I do not want to speak of patronage, but I can say that it is after many such arrogant actions that we, Social Crediters, have the right to say that if the people were aware of everything that goes on in the lobbies, they would not put up any longer with the old line parties in the house.
I was listening a while ago to the remarks of the hon. member for Three Rivers (Mr. Balcer) who said that, in a newspaper report, mention was made of $3,000 for our election coffers. In reply to this assertion, I can say that the old line parties also have coffers supplied from sources whose origin we sometimes know. That is why I do not hesitate to answer back that even though it were true that some members of the Ralliement Creditistes contribute to the activities of their movement in the province of Quebec, this is no reason to make charges; far from it, this is all to their credit.
Besides, certain political parties get their funds in Canada and even, sometimes, out of the country.
However, if these gentlemen think that it is in order to heave off our boat, I hope that it will not be the Three Rivers ferry that will change the situation, but the bridge that will be built with the shortest possible delay.
You will appreciate that with such arrogance, it is impossible for me to congratulate him about the way the officials responsible for the lists of consultants act. Here, I agree with the hon. member for Villeneuve when he says that it would be normal, when letters are exchanged in a riding which have to do with the spending of public funds, that the member for the riding be at least informed through a copy of the letter, even if they want to send one to the consultant, in order that he may know what goes on.
Those are the remarks I wanted to make. Whatever the result of the approval of the Postmaster General's estimates, I nevertheless wish him the greatest possible success should he be called to take on other duties, which would be a normal reward after some 30 years in politics. He deserves our whole sympathy, even if sometimes he does not get

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our congratulations tor a certain kind of work. I wish him, as did others, to enjoy at last the quietness he deserves.


Mr. Weichel:: Mr. Chairman, it is always interesting to speak on any departmental estimates, especially the estimates of the Post Office Department, for the simple reason that before being elected to the House of Commons as representative of Waterloo North I was postmaster and supervisor at Elmira for nearly 36 years. During that time I saw a great many changes. I understand that there are over 50,000 people employed in 12,000 post offices, and the postage required to handle the mail brings in revenues of more than half a million dollars each day. The greatest asset of the department is its nation-wide family of postal workers, and the principal reason for the respect with which the department is regarded by the people of Canada is the devoted service which this great body of men and women has given. Such service has played an important part in the nation's development. It has provided the all-important communications system without which our country could not have achieved its present growth and prosperity. We know that the Post Office Department can never be static, but I am sure that the future will see many more changes, and constructive changes at that. These changes rest not only upon new machinery and equipment but upon the traditional spirit of devotion to duty which has always characterized our postal employees, and the personal sense of responsibility on the part of each member of the service.
I was very much disturbed by the report that patronage is creeping into the service more than ever. I might say that if this is the case it could be the most damnable disaster which could ever happen to the Post Office Department. It has been brought to my attention that the federal association of letter carriers is protesting the disciplinary policy of the Post Office Department and, in particular, the sentencing of employees to salary reductions for petty or unintentional discrepancies. I understand that "unknown checks" are to be carried out on letter carriers-in other words, spying-and that salary reductions will be recommended for the least error. Surely such tactics are altogether unwarranted and I hope the department will abolish this type of punishment.
I am sure we all agree that people making applications for positions should have all the qualifications necessary for the work required and that these appointments should be approved by the civil service commission without interference from anyone. This is the only

way in which this great service will be able to continue for the benefit of all people in Canada.
Most of us think of our postal service merely as an organization for transmitting mail, and though we may have daily contact with postal employees very few of us realize how extensive are its services and how diversified are its functions.
The size and scope of Canada's post office can be indicated by the following example. Let hon. members imagine, if they can, the combined weight of a thousand diesel locomotives. This would amount to slightly less than the weight of mail handled daily. As I have previously mentioned, there are over 12,000 post offices across the country. In some of our major cities these offices employ upwards of 4,500 people. In many other centres they are located in a general store or other central place where the only postal employee is a part-time postmaster.
More than any other government department or agency the Post Office Department is in direct daily contact with almost every Canadian, delivering each year an average of 225 letters for almost every Canadian man, woman and child in this country.
The previous government saw the need of improvements to the postal service in my constituency of Waterloo North, as well as in other places. We have a new post office in Kitchener, now nearing completion. We have one in Waterloo and, I understand, plans are being made for one in Elmira.
Perhaps one of the most important changes in postal rates was the four-cent local or drop letter rate of postage between Kitchener and Waterloo which was approved by the former postmaster general. In my remarks of April 13, 1961, which will be found in Hansard on page 3653, I referred to the possible application of the minimum four-cent local or drop letter postage between these twin cities. As members can understand, Kitchener and Waterloo at that time were classed as two separate and distinct postal areas. This has been of great importance to these twin cities, as well as others across Canada, and also has meant a great deal to the larger firms. Suboffices are a great asset to any city, and Kitchener has had some new ones which have provided excellent service to people in such localities. Waterloo had its first such office installed under the previous government, and another one added some time later. I feel that Waterloo with its 22,000 people should have more than two such offices.
I would like to congratulate the Postmaster General on his appointment and, as a former employee, let me say I well understand that his position could become the most important in the government. Over the past five years,

while sitting in opposition, he asked the former postmaster general many questions during orders of the day. Yes, and some of them were of very little interest or value. I trust, now, that he will be ready, and indeed anxious, to answer any questions which may be put to him in his turn. I understand that the degree of activity since April 8 within this department has been, generally, nominal. In fact, a list of the activities which have been undertaken would include only a couple of new stamp issues, an extension of the stamp issue program and an increase in the posted rates governing a variety of items. The increase in registration fees is, no doubt, in keeping with the times, as is the increase in special delivery fees. However, I feel the increase is too severe. It could cost some of the larger firms thousands of dollars. The working man, with his small income, could also object to such a jump, as could the small businessman.
The rates of postage on third class mail and the fees on C.O.D. are to be increased as of April 1, 1964. I believe these changes should have been made effective on the same date as the changes affecting registration and special delivery, in which case the government might have increased its revenue by about $10 million during the Christmas season.
For some time I have been asking that parttime assistance in the post office could be employed through the civil service commission in the same way as full time employees. If this were done, these workers would probably give better service and they would also have the opportunity of enjoying superannuation benefits after they retire. At present, this is not possible. A number of years ago I had a lady working with me in my office. She was a part time employee. This lady is still employed there, and on her retirement she will walk out without superannuation or any benefits whatever. Surely such people should be given some compensation on leaving their positions.
I was interested to learn about the new promotion opportunities for postal employees as announced by the Postmaster General. In future, vacancies at semi-staff group 33 offices, of which there are 210 in Canada, will be filled by competition open to postal employees in the postal district. In the past, these positions have been open only to the residents of the community where the vacancy occurred. This is a welcome move. However, I believe this should also apply to members of the groups 30, 31, and 32 whose work is similar to that of the 33 group.
Another suggestion I should like to make is this, that the competition be extended to the whole province and not only to the district
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concerned. This will give a greater opportunity to postmasters and assistants in the lower group of semi-staff post offices who have the qualifications to compete for such positions. The present move will be welcomed by the Canadian postmasters association of which I was a member for many years. The officers and executives of this association have for a long time dedicated their services to the welfare of all employees, and former postmasters general under the previous government have recognized the valuable work of this association for the betterment of the postal service. I hope the present minister will accept the co-operation of this body and give careful consideration to all the suggestions which it brings forward.
The former government played a great part in making possible the progress of this department. In 1961-62, the volume of mail handled remained high. More than 4 billion pieces were processed. Revenue in that year amounted to $213,579,446 and represented an increase of $11,575,655 over the previous year. A revision in parcel post rates accounted for $8,600,000 and additional mailings of U.S. publications in Canada accounted for $1,400,000. The farsightedness of the previous government is best exemplified by the construction of the Sir Alexander Campbell building which brought the various divisions under one roof and allowed, for the first time, for a more closely knit organization with better interoffice communication and co-ordinated working facilities. The postage meter system was increased, or extended, in 1961-62 to an additional 62 offices. My former office in Elmira joined in such progress, which gives many firms the opportunity of using this service. I understand that this mechanical method of pre-paying postage is now installed in 1,163 Canadian post offices.
In the fiscal year, 1961-62, construction of 110 small and large post office buildings was completed, while 52 were under construction at the end of the year. The number of post offices accommodated in federal buildings as of March, 1962 was 1,121, while 940 offices were accommodated in leased quarters.
An important part of the progress made in 1961-62 concerned the letter carrier walks whose number was increased by 230. It now totals 104,603. The total number of calls has increased by 104,603 and totalled 2,999,969 at the end of 1961-62.
As a postmaster for over 35 years, and also supervisor of smaller offices in my district, I well recognize the fine work being done by all such supervisors. Such work was carried out by the former area superintendents, but there has been a change and now such work, as I mentioned, is being carried out by these postmasters.

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The employees and the department have played a great part in the constant advancement and progress of this fine Post Office Department. Few of us realize how extensive are its services and how diversified are its functions. It has expanded, changed and adapted itself to the physical and economic growth of the nation. I may say to the Postmaster General that I hope in his travels he will visit all the smaller offices, as the former postmaster general did, and in that way become acquainted with the members of the staff and the work that should be done. From the smallest of beginnings, the Post Office Department has grown to a complex nationwide organization that penetrates into the most remote corners of the country, swiftly and efficiently knitting together the threads of our national fabric. Yes, Canada's post office has an extremely appropriate motto: Service to the public.
In order that this advancement may continue, may I point out to the Postmaster General that all appointments must be made by the civil service commission, so that all applying for such work may have an equal chance of success according to their qualifications.


J.-H.-Théogène Ricard: Mr. Chairman, in taking part in this debate, I can assure you that it is not my intention to delay the proceedings of the house very long.
First of all, I would like to take this opportunity to greet the hon. member for Lot-biniere (Mr. Choquette), who occasionally visits us in this house. I would like to ask him to be indulgent and to listen to my few remarks.
I would also take this opportunity to congratulate the Postmaster General (Mr. Denis) for the confidence put on him by his leader when he entrusted him with the administration of one of the most important departments of the government, that of the post office. I was glad of that promotion which has been given him.
I have been one of the first to know him, and it was then both of us were delegates to the United Nations. I profited by his wide experience and his parliamentary life as well as by his sound advice and his company, for he is a very merry man, whom it is always a pleasure to meet. I believe that newspaperman Mr. Marcel Gingras, of "La Presse", has given proper credit to that personality in one of his recent life stories.
I would like to take this opportunity to pay tribute and at the same time thank the officials of the Post Office Department who are always at our disposal to help us with all the problems which we submit to them.

I can only say that my relations with them, and with the department as well, have always been most friendly, for we always succeeded together to solve the few problems which we had to discuss.
However, I wish that the Postmaster General had not, in his everyday work, preferred to follow the suggestions coming from outside rather than those formulated by the elected members of the house who deal with public affairs.
I feel that the minister would do well to change his attitude and to pass through elected representatives instead. As far as I am concerned, I can assure him that I would not abuse the privilege since I have only one ambition here, that is to serve my electors as well as I can.
Mr. Chairman, I wholeheartedly agree with what the hon. member for Berthier-Maskinonge-Delanaudiere (Mr. Paul) said. I shall not repeat the suggestions and recommendations he made to the minister but I should like to take this opportunity to stress certain inaccuracies and contradictions made by the minister in some of his statements concerning the increase in postal rates.
If my memory serves me well, he laid the blame on the wrong party at the time. He may not have used those very words but he nevertheless tried to convince his audience that the increase was due to lack of administrative ability by his predecessor at the head of the Post Office Department.
Like the hon. member who spoke before me, I regret the increases which the minister recommended because they are costly for the public. In the long run, Canadian taxpayers will have to foot the bill.
Mr. Chairman, I should like to remind the minister that when he was sitting on this side of the house, he did not miss a chance to advocate mail delivery twice a day. I wish to point out that it is now within his power to restore that service.
I congratulate the minister for having obtained salary increases for certain classes of employees, but I should like to associate myself with those who deplore the fact that he has not used his influence a little more, since this pay boost of $60 gives the parties concerned only 17 cents more per day. Everyone will agree that is not much, and the good job done by those people should have been better rewarded. As I say, the minister should have brought more pressure to bear and obtained a larger increase for his employees.
Mr. Chairman, since the Christmas season is almost here, I would ask the minister to kindly help me give a practical gift to the residents of four important parishes of my riding.

I refer to the parishes of St. Denis, St. Damase, St. Rosalie and Upton. With the co-operation of the minister, we could give those parishes a building for the post office, which the citizens of those parishes would welcome.
Mr. Chairman, in closing my remarks, I will say that, should the rumours whispered around parliament hill materialize, I join with other members of parliament to wish a most agreeable and most pleasant journey to my friend, the hon. member for St. Denis, Postmaster General.


Mr. McBain:: Mr. Chairman, my remarks are going to be as brief as possible, as I know the Postmaster General desires to have his estimates passed before this day's sitting finishes. I take this opportunity of congratulating him on the presentation of his first estimates. For a number of years I have enjoyed a friendly association with him in an organization that has previously been mentioned, the House of Commons bowling league, and I feel possibly I may have brought him along up to the presidency of that league because he followed me in that office. Our associations in it were very pleasant and I hope they will continue to be that way.
Before going further I also wish to congratulate the hon. member for Waterloo North, who this afternoon presented what I think was the second report on the Post Office Department, outlining in a very excellent way the activities of the department as carried out in previous years, and this was but rightly so because he is the only member of the House of Commons who was a P.M.- a postmaster-before he became an M.P.
The hon. member for Danforth brought a matter to the attention of the committee that I also wish to speak about, the reasons letter carriers are at the present time asking for a salary increase, collective bargaining and compulsory arbitration.
I do not know whether the hon. member brought to the attention of the committee that these requests were contained in a letter put forth by branch No. 1 of the Toronto association, but I do wish to support his remarks for the reason that branch 23 of the federated association of letter carriers of St. Thomas has also endorsed this letter and asked for the same consideration.
I now want to turn to a few items of a local nature in my own constituency. Before doing so I cannot let the opportunity pass without mentioning something about patronage. I am not going to be critical of the minister, because I do not recall that any patronage has been practised in my riding since I
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became a member of parliament. But I suggest to the minister that he throw away that Liberal list of consultants and make a new list, which would have on it the elected members of parliament; because they are the men and women elected to represent their constituencies here and, if anyone is to be consulted, they are the ones who should be consulted about matters pertaining to their constituencies.
Patronage was not practised in the constituency of Elgin during the previous administration, and more especially it has not been practised in the matter of rural mail carrier contracts. There are over 40 rural mail contracts in the riding of Elgin and during the past 10 years since I was first elected, to the best of my knowledge only a few of those contracts came up for tender. The reason a tender is called is usually due to the death of a contractor. These men and women are doing an excellent job and they see that the mail is carried and delivered every day regardless of weather conditions; and we all know that weather conditions, especially at this time of the year, are not always the best.
When these rural contracts do come up every four years and a contractor is doing efficient work, then I feel consideration should be given to the renewal of his contract. Many contractors fail to ask for their contracts to be reviewed after they have been in force for two years. They are hesitant to do so because if they ask for a review and an increase in their contracts, they fear they will lose them at the end of four years, and if patronage is being practised they are hesitant to ask for the consideration which is rightly theirs.
I now wish to refer to an election promise made during the last two election campaigns by the Liberal candidate in my riding, that if a Liberal government were elected a new post office would be erected in the village of Vienna. Last June I put this question on the order paper and it was answered on June 12, question 350:
Is it the intention of the government to build a post office at Vienna, Ontario, this year?
The Postmaster General replied:
No. This is a revenue post office, group 24, where the postmaster is responsible for the provision of the premises as part of his remuneration.
That is probably quite correct but I feel that certain discrimination is being practised against the residents of this community because the present post office is contained in a room no longer than the table in front of me here, and I believe it is only eight feet wide. Three miles to the south, in the village of Port Burwell they have had a new post office for some time and, five miles on the other side, Staffordville, also

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has a new post office. Naturally the residents of Vienna cannot understand why these other two communities, one not nearly as large, have been able to obtain new post offices.
It is correct that under the present regulations the postmaster is supposed to provide the accommodation, but he has reached the age of retirement. He is now on extension and no doubt does not wish to go to great expense on his own behalf to provide accommodation that he may only occupy for a short period of time. I hope the minister will give serious consideration to see if some method can be worked out whereby this community can have a new post office.
The other item I wish to mention is the post office that has been promised for the village of West Lome. Over the past number of years the residents in West Lome have not been able to agree on a site, but in the neighbouring village of Rodney the Department of Public Works has already secured a site which has been cleared, and both town councils have agreed on it. I suggest that consideration be given to the building that was promised for West Lome, and I believe that in the estimates of the Department of Public Works provision is made for that. It would be of great benefit if it were built in Rodney where a site is already secured.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Chairman, at the beginning of these short remarks, I would like to congratulate the Postmaster General on his recent appointment. I hope that during his short term of office he will take steps to further the public interest and that of his department.
I would like to offer him a few suggestions and, if he takes them into account, he will be considered, in his brief tenure, as an excellent Postmaster General who works in the public interest, in his country's interest.
First, the Postmaster General could study the possibility of closing post offices on Saturday. That practice is followed by some financial establishments, including banks, in Canada. On the other hand, the government of the Netherlands decided recently to close post offices on Saturday.
Second, I ask him to find a way so that letter carriers will not have to climb stairs to deliver mail to people living on the second or third floors. In my opinion, an arrangement could be made with the landlords and the tenants to have mail boxes on the first floor, so that those postal employees would not have to work under such inhuman conditions. I realize that they have to serve the people but the Canadian people, I think, would appreciate any change which might make the letter carrier's work easier.
Third, the minister talked about new stamp designs. If he should like to have suggestions in that respect, he could ask the hon. member for Lotbiniere (Mr. Choquette).
I would also ask the Postmaster General to find a way to prevent the Post Office Department from being used to distribute communist propaganda. This problem is not new. However, it should be possible to find a way to completely stop that communist propaganda which is distributed throughout the country. Canada spends millions of dollars on national defence, against our eastern enemies. Therefore I find it illogical to allow the Post Office Department to distribute communist propaganda.
Before coming to the end of my remarks, I would like to point out that some members on the government side use official House of Commons stationery, as well as envelopes, and the House of Commons frank to mail Liberal party propaganda. I have the evidence here:	House of Commons, Ottawa,
Canada. It is a letter mailed to weeklies in the province of Quebec and signed "Jean Berger, Montmagny-L'Islet, publicity agent of the Liberal party, Ottawa". And the amazing thing is that he used an envelope with the frank of the hon. member for Terrebonne (Mr. Cadieux) on it.
I am of the opinion, Mr. Chairman, that government members should set the example and not have-


Mr. Berger:: Mr. Chairman, I rise on a question of privilege. The hon. member for J oliette-L'Assomption-Montcalm	implicated
me. I did not know that the hon. member considered himself amongst the most uncompromising members. I take note of that. Now, coming back to the precise point he mentioned, I sent exact information to weekly newspapers, but I did not consider it necessary to mention the hon. member.


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Lucien Lamoureux: Order. The hon. member will admit that this is not a question of privilege but an argument, and he will probably have the opportunity to submit it later.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Chairman, my remarks were quite polite. I quoted a document which truly exists and the hon. member had his secretary put underneath his signature-on paper paid for by the taxpayers-the typewritten inscription "Publicity agent of the Liberal party, Ottawa".
Mr. Chairman, before I resume my seat, I should like to quote an article which was published in the Ottawa Journal, on November 14, 1963, and which refers to a statement

made by the hon. member for Northumberland (Miss Jewett) who, as we all know, sits on the government side. The article, which deals with the abuses of the government and the patronage within the Post Office Department, reads as follows:

Dr. Jewett critical of politicians.
_ She said that the bids for rural postal routes, in particular, still operate under patronage.

Mr. Chairman, these were the few comments which I wanted to make and I hope that the Postmaster General will take up the suggestions which I made at the beginning. I would like to hear his comments.


Guy Marcoux: Would the hon. member allow me to ask him a question?


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Go on.


Guy Marcoux: Has the hon. member ever sent a letter for propaganda or publicity purposes?


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: I did not make any publicity for my party in particular. I wrote to the local newspapers in Joliette-L'Assomption-Montcalm, and this is my right and duty as a member to give to the people an account of the work done by your humble servant in the house, Mr. Chairman.


Mr. Webb:: Mr. Chairman, I would like to take a few minutes of the time of the committee just to say that the Postmaster General has ignored every attempt to soften his heart and dispense with the old, Liberal party tradition of immediately firing everyone who dared to differ from their opinions or were even brave enough to express their own opinions. Many of these people, who are innocent of even being interested in politics, were dismissed because of the biased opinion of someone in their party or a member of their ranks. I could take up considerable time of the committee in telling hon. members of many such instances, but I will not because of experience in the past few weeks of complaints falling upon deaf ears. I also refrain from detailing these instances because I do not wish to take up the time of the committee. However, I take this opportunity, on behalf of the riding of Hastings-Frontenac, whose people are, I believe, the most loyal in the Dominion of Canada to our democratic way of life, to express to you, the Postmaster General, our good wishes for a very merry Christmas and a happy new year.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Mr. Chairman, I merely want to rise and make an appeal to the minister to consider the possibility of providing house to house deliveries in smaller ciites where the geographical circumstances warrant it.
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I recognize that at the present time the regulations provide for only house to house deliveries in cities with a population of 5,000 and over. I believe that is the number. I have written to the present Postmaster General and to the previous postmaster general regarding the city of Port Moody, which is located along the Burrard inlet. Because there is a mountain on one side and the sea on the other, the city has had to stretch out over a considerable territory. The result is that many old people are 20 or 25 blocks away from the post office. I recognize that in many communities where there are 2,500 people in a compact area it is not much of a problem to go to the post office. But when a city because of its geographical features extends over a considerable territory this really works a hardship. I suggest to the minister that he take these geographical features into consideration. I do not think that the population figure alone ought to be the cut-off at which house to house delivery is provided. I should like to ask the minister to give some consideration to this point.


An hon. Member:: Carried.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: May I say to the member who is saying "carried" that I have taken no part whatsoever in the discussion today and have taken none of the time of the committee. Therefore I reserve the right, if I choose to do so, to raise this matter with the Postmaster General at this time.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
5. Operations including salaries and other expenses of staff post offices, district offices, railway mail service staffs, and supplies, equipment and other items for revenue post offices, including administration, $121,454,700.
William Arnold Peters: Mr. Chairman, I am not sure whether the minister has referred to the matter of railway delivery but there is a great deal of dissatisfaction in my area with regard to the curtailment that is taking place in the sorting of mail on some railway runs. In my opinion this service has been a very satisfactory one. It was built up over a number of years and it has been particularly so in the case of small communities. Certainly this is true of places outside Toronto. I have had complaints of letters taking five days to be carried 100 miles. When letters to be carried from one community to another community ten or 15 miles away were sorted on railway mail cars the letters were put into a bag that was dropped off at the next point. If there are no sorting facilities the mail is sent to a terminal, is handled in that terminal and is returned, but only on trains providing the type of mail service involving delivery to each area.

Supply-Post Office
This has been a problem in northern Ontario. There is considerable discussion about removing one of the trips of one of the major trains out of Toronto at the present time. This will curtail most of the mail delivery that used to be made, by reason of the train running from Timmins to Toronto on Sunday. This will mean that in many cases it will take more than 24 hours for the mail to go to the terminal point, be sorted and returned.
Despite what Mr. Gordon and others may say, the railways are not operating on freight alone but also on express and mail carriage, and if they did not have the revenue from the branch lines serving the less populated areas they would not be able to show a profit of any kind. I think the Postmaster General has a great deal of influence with regard to the service that is being provided in this field.
It has been said that mail delivery has been speeded up by the use of road transportation. To my knowledge this has never been the case. It has not been advantageous for me to mail a letter from Ottawa to my riding by air. There would be no advantage in sending it by air because if the proper train connections can be made, delivery is much quicker. We think that a plea should be made for those engaged in the mail sorting service. If the service is discontinued we will in my opinion be catering to the large communities with central distribution offices and central sorting services without providing service to as many Canadians as possible, regardless of population and what facilities they themselves have.
You can put a letter on the train in Swastika, for instance, and if there is a sorting service on the train it will be delivered to the addressee in Englehart in the morning. If it is taken to North Bay it is not returned until the next morning. If there is still no drop-off service on the train it will go back to the centre it came from and be returned to the post office as bag mail. This could take 48 hours. You could walk the distance in several hours and carry the letter with you.
In my opinion the department has always been very co-operative. They have considered this matter and some changes have been made that are advantageous. There was a time when, because of circumstances, mail from Ottawa went through the Besserer street post office and was delayed there. In particular, mail in brown envelopes was not given very much consideration and was often delayed. Mail that was sent to the station and put on a train providing drop-off mail service was there in a matter of 12 hours, at the start of the next business day.
I hope the minister has looked into this matter. I know that the former minister was
[Mr. Peters.l
quite concerned about it, not only in terms of the service in relation to the operations of the Post Office Department itself, but with regard to the whole matter of railway mail service to small communities.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
10. Transportation-movement of mail by land, air and water, including administration, $64,650,400.
William Arnold Peters: On this item I also have another problem to raise with regard to the communities that do not have a large enough population to warrant the type of name and street directory published by private enterprise in the case of larger centres. In my area there has been a reluctance on the part of one postmaster in Kirkland Lake to give much consideration to mail. I would not say this was on a political basis, but he seems to think that anything coming from Ottawa is propaganda and therefore really does not deserve much consideration.
In this municipality we have a very large turnover of population because of the type of people who lives there. Mining communities have always had a large turnover, and although directories may be issued only two or three months before we are sending out a large quantity of mail, we have found that in some cases returned mail has amounted to as much as 18 per cent. We had discussions previously with the director of the department. At the time he was interested in establishing on a trial basis an I.B.M.6 system which would require the postmasters in the town to make out a form when mail was undelivered and return that form so the directories could be brought up to date.
Before the last election the situation in my riding was probably worse than in any other, and because of the fact that we tried to give such broad coverage we ascertained that there was no way of establishing where people had moved to. The director was kind enough to put out a temporary list at that time in mimeographed form and we used this. We found that after only a month had gone by there was a 4 or 5 per cent change in addresses.
I think the suggestion of the director is one that merits some consideration at least on a trial basis. An I.B.M. form would be used and every urban or rural carrier who could not deliver a letter would note the change of address. This form would be returned to the district post office and referred to the directory section at Ottawa so the change could be made there. This was contemplated, but I have not heard anything more about it. I presume the matter has been neglected. I suggest this is a field where the rural directory has been serving a purpose and has been used by businesses and others interested

in securing mail coverage in their area. I believe it should be maintained, and if it is going to be maintained it is not much more expensive to keep it up to date. It is unfortunate that some of the postmasters pay very little attention to this matter. I have checked in Ottawa and I find that the rural carriers outside the city have cards. When mail is being delivered they try to ascertain to where the person to whom it is addressed has moved. The changes are made so that the change of address finally gets back to the distribution point where sorting takes place, and something can be done there to remedy the situation. In the case of Kirkland Lake, all it amounted to was that we took off the list the people we knew did not live at the address to where their letters were being sent. As far as the directory is concerned Kirkland Lake is short two or three thousand people who live in that municipality. In this connection I think a punch card system could be tried on a rental basis in an effort to bring the matter up to date.
This problem may not be too important to members of parliament, because it is interesting to note that if a member of parliament sends out literature and it comes back he readdresses it to somebody else and sends it out again. But from the point of view of the businessman, if he is using the directory for the purpose of furthering his enterprise, I think this would be very disconcerting. Therefore I hope the minister will let us know whether he can give some consideration to the rural directories, because a large number of ridings in Canada are affected in the way I have described. I believe it is a worth-while service which, with a little more effort, could be brought more up to date than it has in the past. The director which the minister has in his department is doing as much as possible with the limited number of people he has; but this is a big department and should get more consideration than has been possible in the past.


Mr. Barneti:: I am rising to ask the minister to give careful consideration to a policy review in the department with respect to the present definitions or arrangements which would restrict the carrying of mails to scheduled carriers. I make this request with particular reference to the carriage of mails by air because of the very anomalous situations which may exist, and which certainly do exist on the west coast of Canada; reference was made earlier to this problem by the hon. member for Skeena.
By way of illustration I should point out that in actual fact much of the mail at the present time is carried on the coast by non-scheduled carriers. I happened to notice the
28902-5-388J
supply-Post Office
other day that a complete polling station in the last federal election, where the address of all the ^ electors in my constituency was provided, is listed as having an address in care of a certain air line, or one or two air lines. This is their postal address. Yet I know that neither of the particular air lines mentioned are officially carrying any mails. I do not know whether the Postmaster General remembers a discussion which took place in this house a number of years ago, when the esteemed late Mr. Cote was postmaster general, on the subject of what one member described as bootlegged mail. I very well recall how horrified was the then postmaster general at the suggestion that any of Her Majesty's mail was being bootlegged. I also recall that it was quite easy to tell where in the house those members who represented the more sparsely settled constituencies came from, because of the chortles of laughter which came from those particular spots in the house at the postmaster general declaring up and down that no such thing could possibly exist as the bootlegging of Her Majesty's mail.
I do^ know that, because of the present regulations, those in charge of trying to work out the best arrangement for the transportation of mails are often hamstrung, because of the existence of the regulations, in deciding what constitutes a scheduled carrier. I remember hearing recently the Minister of Transport say that he had discovered, while attending an international air conference that in many respects Canada has a system of air transportation which is quite unique in the world. Many of our communities since the advent of transportation by air have become dependant upon a form of transportation which really has no parallel anywhere else in the world. I feel that the present rules and regulations concerning the transportation of mails have not, as far as I can see, been altered very much since the time when all mails had to be transported either by rail, or by water in areas where steamer transportation existed.
Apart from having developed certain arrangements regarding the rapid transit of mails on the cross-Canada runs we really have not looked into the problem of how the mail services could be improved by making use of the smaller air lines which, in many cases, are operating under a class three or even under a charter form of licence. I feel the time has come when there should be a much more careful look at this question from the policy level in Ottawa in order that the officers of the department who are concerned with trying to provide the best transit of mails can do a better job.

Supply-Post Office
One of the considerations which the department tends to lose sight of is the community of interest in certain areas. There are areas in my constituency where it is a matter of a ten minute flight by air from one community to another, with planes running to and from these points quite frequently, but it takes at least a week for the transportation of mails. These are communities which are united in a geographic area of interest in such things as hospital districts, in such things as school districts, in such things as the administrative functioning of an Indian agency, where it is most difficult for ordinary business to be transacted within a reasonable period of time.
I have also had people complaining that they have practically been taken to court by the authorities in the provincial administration because they were not able to comply with certain provincial regulations regarding the filling out and return of certain forms and reports within a prescribed period of time. This is a problem which some of the smaller municipalities face in dealing with the department of municipal affairs in Victoria. I have discussed this matter from time to time with some of the officers of the department. I realize it is a very complex matter, one for which there is no easy or clearcut solution; but I feel that there should be a top policy review by the minister's department m Ottawa to see whether some better arrangements can be worked out.


Lucien Lamoureux: Shall the item carry?


William Arnold Peters: Before it carries, Mr. Chairman, I should like a reply from the minister as to what his functions are and what the department is going to do about the anticipated curtailment of trains 49 and 50, on the Toronto to Timmins service. The latest word I have is that it is the intention to drop this service entirely by April.


Azellus Denis: Mr. Chairman, in order to answer the question of the hon. member for Timiskaming (Mr. Peters), I must say that I do not know how we will manage, if certain lines are abandoned. "We will then decide to organize the transportation of mail by land. I must emphasize here that we have done our best to obtain railway service, in order that a certain amount of mail could be carried by railway if the matter is not settled by trucking.


Mr. Woolliams:: May I ask one question of the Postmaster General. I have given him warning of this question on previous occasions. I know there have been some unkind things said, but I want to wish the hon. gentleman a very merry Christmas. And I want to ask

him this: Would he mind explaining to the Canadian people and to the House of Commons why there have been no robberies since he took over his job of Postmaster General.


Azellus Denis: There have been some robberies since we took over, unfortunately, we have not had enough time to convince the thieves or robbers that they should change the bad habits they had formed under the previous regime.


Lucien Lamoureux: That concludes the estimates of the Postmaster General's department.


Azellus Denis: Mr. Chairman, allow me to thank all hon. members and all those who contributed to the passage of my estimates. I thank them for the flowers, but somewhat less for the thorns. Fortunately, they were not too prickly and I think I can stand it.
However, with regard to my possible appointment to the Senate, it would be difficult for me to satisfy everybody. Some people want to send me to the other place, and others want to keep me here. I cannot cut myself in two and I suggest that the decision should be left to those responsible. Then we will know if the house loses or the Senate gains.



LEGISLATION

[Stage Direction]
The Speaker of the Senate-*
2. Allowance in lieu of residence, $3,000.
William Arnold Peters: This is a very important subject in my opinion and it is one which has not been looked at carefully for a long time. Many people do not realize the extent of the field which is covered by these estimates. The housekeeping of parliament has grown very greatly since the days when the Speaker and the Sergeant-at-Arms knew everyone by name. The time is ripe, in my opinion, when we should provide the house with a more efficient method of operation than we have been able to obtain under the present system. Most of the items under this heading, legislation, are handled, as hon. members are aware, by the officers of internal economy who include the Speaker and several members of the cabinet. We are all aware that most of the members of the eternal economy committee-


Eldon Mattison Woolliams: The eternal economy committee?


An hon. Member:: What is the matter with "eternal"?


An hon. Members:: You were right first time.


William Arnold Peters: It may have developed to that point, and that is what I would like to change.
The operation of the House of Commons involves the equivalent of a town of fairly large size. There are, working here, more than 1,000 employees, and if 1,000 employees were working in a municipality, the operation of a municipality containing between 5,000 and 10,000 people would be provided for. It is true we do not have the responsibility for providing recreation for the children. We do not have many streets. We do not face a number of the problems with which a municipality has to contend. On the other hand, there are many which a municipality could avoid. The majority of the staff of the House of Commons do not come under direct control of the civil service. The staff employed in these buildings includes stenographers, messengers, protective officers, cleaners, employees of the Department of Public Works and, of course, members of parliament; but I suppose we would not include them, Mr. Chairman, in the working force. I suppose they amount to an additional 350 including the Senate.


An hon. Member:: You were talking about
workers.


William Arnold Peters: Thus, we have a large number of people and it is doubtful whether an organization like this can best be handled under the system which was originally set up. I suggest the time has come when we should make changes. I should like to discuss some of the problems which face us and go into details about some of those problems in order that members may be aware of the situation which the Speaker has to face from day to day. I should like to spend some time commenting on the long range considerations which he has to bear in mind, and on the relationship which exists between the rules of this house and the actual operation. I should like to go into this question and make some suggestions for the consideration of the committee. I should like to call it seven o'clock and do all this at a later date when the estimates come before us again.


John Whitney Pickersgill: It is not seven o'clock, and I hope the hon. member does not intend to deny me the right to say a word in the committee, too. The government, particularly to oblige the group to which the hon. member belongs, brought these particular estimates on at this time rather than at the usual time, at the very end of the estimates. This was done particularly to oblige the hon. gentleman. I may say that the other members of the committee enjoy listening to the hon. member and we would be willing to listen
Supply-Legislation
to him as long as he wants to talk about this matter. I suggest, therefore, that he accommodate the rest of us by getting right on with his speech.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: I do not know what the Secretary of State is trying to do, but there has been no accommodation. These estimates were brought down at five minutes to seven. My hon. friend has a perfect right to call it seven o'clock and continue his speech whenever the estimates are before us again. We did ask that they be brought on sufficiently early to allow of discussion.


An hon. Member:: Why not get ahead now?


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: There is no reason why we should continue. We agreed to sit this morning at twelve o'clock. We agreed to sit until seven. I see no reason why we should extend this sitting beyond seven o'clock merely because the Secretary of State wants to rush these estimates through in a few minutes.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I think, on reflection, the hon. gentleman will consider that statement of his as being a most unfair one. I am not suggesting these estimates should be rushed through at all. What I said-and he can examine the words I used-was that I thought it was the sense of the whole committee that we were willing to sit here and listen to the hon. gentleman for as long as he wished to speak. That, surely, is not rushing anything. But there are 265 members in this house and some of us would like to get the business done in the present week. The hon. member has something he wants to say. We want to hear it. I do not know whether I am speaking for the committee generally, but I think I am, and I say to him: we are all ready to hear him for as long as he wants to go on, but we do ask him to make his speech now.


Thomas Speakman Barnett: I think the Secretary of State is making some inaccurate assumptions. We have, as a group, agreed that there should be an extension of time as suggested. It was certainly not the responsibility of my hon. friend from Timiskaming that these particular estimates did not come before us until five minutes to seven. The Secretary of State is right when he says there are 265 members of this house all of whom have the right to bring up matters which are of interest to them. I do not mind confessing, Mr. Chairman, quite freely that much of the discussion that occupied a good deal of the time this afternoon I considered to be quite inconsequential to the functioning of parliament, and much less important than the subject matter the hon. member for Timiskaming was discussing. This is only my opinion, however, and I do not expect it to be shared by

Business of the House other members. I feel that I have been here and available during the hours that were set and that the hon. member for Timiska-ming is quite right in his contention.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: It is seven o'clock, Mr. Chairman.
Progress reported.
Resolutions adopted in committee of supply this day reported and concurred in.



CONSUMER CREDIT


[Stage Direction]
Mr. L. T. Pennell (Branl-Haldimand) presented the second report of the joint committee of the Senate and the House of Commons on consumer credit and moved that the report be concurred in.
Motion agreed to.

Mr. Churchill:: May I now ask the house leader how much business he expects to get through the house tomorrow?


John Whitney Pickersgill: I am not a prophet nor the son of a prophet. I think we will find that the hours-


William Arnold Peters: Do not accommodate me tomorrow.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I thank the hon. member for Timiskaming for his courteous interruption. For reasons which I do not think I should bore the committee by going into, we would like to start tomorrow with the estimates of the Minister of Agriculture; then, take the estimates of the Minister of Fisheries; then, the estimates of the Minister of National Revenue, and then the estimates of His Honour the Speaker. We would then take the estimates of the Department of Labour. After that, it seems to me that I could perhaps ascertain from hon. members which departments it would be most suitable to bring on from that time forward.
I should like to say that I seem to have been misunderstood a few minutes ago. I do not wish in any way to reflect on any hon. member in anything I have said. I have been trying, sometimes with rather a lot of difficulty, to accommodate hon. members in all corners of the house about sittings and everything else. There has only been one occasion during this session when the government has had to make a motion and divide the house on the sitting hours. I should like to be able to do that for the rest of the week to the end of the session. I should like also to have the session end at the end of this week, as perhaps could be accomplished

because there have been very few sessions in the history of parliament when more time has been devoted to the consideration of the estimates than in the present session, if the hours are looked at. There have been a few, but not many. No one can say we have neglected consideration of these expenditures.
Now, of course, the Minister of National Defence will be back tomorrow as will the Secretary of State for External Affairs. The one department has only been discussed, but no items have been passed and the other is not completed. There are a number of other departments that have not been completed as yet. We cannot hope to conclude the proceedings this week without a certain degree of self-discipline. I do not believe, either, that because each of us thinks his speech is important, though some of us perhaps are occasionally resentful of those of others, we can accomplish our objective unless we are willing to make a serious extension of the hours. I am not going to ask now, but I hope tomorrow at the opening of the house there may be unanimous consent to sitting, from the opening of the sitting, without a break until some time late in the evening when there is a motion to adjourn.


Stanley Howard Knowles: May I ask the Secretary of State whether there is any other legislation to come before this session? As a subheading, I mention the world's fair bill and the two or three Senate bills to which he referred earlier. Are those items still on the agenda or have they been dropped?


John Whitney Pickersgill: So far as the three bills from the Senate are concerned, which I believe are non-contentious, I hope the house would be able to find time after the estimates have been concluded to consider them. I have said two or three times, that we are not going to hold up prorogation if they are not considered. However, they would have to be started all over again and they would take up a certain amount of the time of both houses at the next session if we do not consider them now. Hon. members have had these bills on their files for some time, and I believe they realize they would not need prolonged discussion.
In so far as the world's fair bill is concerned, the reason we did not proceed earlier is that there were discussions going on earlier this week which might have necessitated some slight amendment to the bill. I did not want to waste the time of the house by bringing it up until we were sure. I am not able to say for certain, but it may be we will have to take time to consider it.


Stanley Howard Knowles: May I ask one other question? Has the Secretary of State in mind suggesting any additional extension of hours,

bearing in mind that he has done fairly well at this session by consultation and by getting co-operation? He has done rather well, has he not? It may be a good idea to continue with this, rather than just bringing it to the house cold.


John Whitney Pickersgill: As a matter of fact, I thought I made it very clear in what I said earlier-perhaps I did not-that I was not asking the consent of the house now to the hours for tomorrow. I do not want to take hon. members by surprise. If I could get consent now, I cannot tell you how happy I would be. I am not asking for it. I am hoping hon. members will reflect upon it between now and the time of meeting at eleven o'clock tomorrow. Then at eleven o'clock tomorrow I could propose that an order be made that the house remain in session continuously throughout the day until a motion is made for adjournment, which would certainly be made before the end of that day.


Gordon Minto Churchill: May I just ask the house leader if he will reconsider the proposed legislation that is still to come before us? So far as we are concerned we do not want to be put in the position of having to consider legislation at the conclusion of the estimates. We would rather deal with it before the estimates are concluded.
The reason I say that, is that the official opposition has shown as much desire as the government side to get the business of the house completed, but it is not in our mind at the moment that we would like to sit late, say, on Saturday or Sunday morning to consider some piece of legislation which we ourselves might not wish to debate at any great length. Much as we would like to accommodate other parties in the house, there is obviously a limit.


John Whitney Pickersgill: With respect to the
measure regarding the world fair, just as soon as the government is in a position to bring it forward, and that will not be tomorrow-but it might conceivably be the first item on Friday-just as soon as we are in a position to say definitely what we will do about it, I will indicate it through the usual channels to hon. gentlemen, and it would be our view it should be brought forward early, because it is legislation that has to pass both houses. These other small measures respecting the Department of Transport have already been through the other place. After we send the appropriations bill to the other place there is always a certain interval, and if they do not pass it in that interval we would not hold up prorogation if they had not passed it; but if it could be-
National Harbours Board Act


Stanley Howard Knowles: We could have done all this in the time we are talking about it.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Then I am prepared to propose them right now and get them disposed of. Do we have unanimous consent to do that, sir?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Stanley Howard Knowles: The three are the Ontario harbours bill, the national harbours bill, and the carriage by air act.


John Whitney Pickersgill: That is right. If you would call item No. 4 on today's order paper we could proceed.



HARBOURS


John Whitney Pickersgill: the second reading of Bill No. S-5, to approve an agreement between the government of Canada and the province of Ontario respecting public harbours.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time, considered in committee, reported, read the third time and passed.


John Whitney Pickersgill: the second reading of Bill No. S-39, to amend the National Harbours Board Act.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Lamoureux in the chair.
On clause 1.
Gordon Minto Churchill: I would like to ask the house leader if he wants me to check the French version of this bill, or will he leave it to the hon. member for Lapointe?


John Whitney Pickersgill: As a matter of fact, I think it is a matter for the hon. member for Three Rivers to do, but perhaps I should give a slight explanation of the bill which, at first blush, looks a little silly. I am told, however, that certain lawsuits might take place and very large sums of money might be involved, if somebody got the idea before this bill passes; and the bill has a very practical effect.
Clause 1 agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
Title agreed to.
Bill reported and read the third time and
passed.
[Stage Direction]
Business of the House CARRIAGE BY AIR ACT

John Whitney Pickersgill: the second reading of Bill No. S-37, to amend the Carriage by Air Act.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time, considered in committee and reported.
Mr. Deputy Speaker:: When shall the said bill be read the third time? By leave, now?


Stanley Howard Knowles: By leave.


John Whitney Pickersgill: the third reading of the bill.
He said: Mr. Speaker, before this bill is read a third time I should point out that it will be of great interest to our widows if we should die in an air crash, because it increases the liability for insurance.
Motion agreed to and bill read the third time and passed.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Stanley Howard Knowles: I am sure the Secretary of State would like to be able to answer another question so that he can show what a good mood he is now in. Is it clear that the only other piece of legislation for this session, apart from the appropriations bill, would be the one regarding the world fair?


John Whitney Pickersgill: That is a very embarrassing question. I do not know whether the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre knows quite how embarrassing it is, but I believe in certain quarters of the house there have been some discussions about a number of private bills that are on the order paper and a method of disposing of them, about which an understanding has not yet been reached. It may be that as the result of certain consultations that are going on if all hon. members of the house were agreeable there might be some method found of dealing with that problem.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Mr. Speaker, we are only asking the minister about government legislation.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I am referring also to government legislation.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: May I ask the minister, what additional government legislation?


John Whitney Pickersgill: It would be a measure providing for another method of dealing with those private bills that are now on the order paper. But really I would prefer not to go into any more explanations at this time, because these discussions have not advanced very far and they may come to nothing.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Just tell us you are in a good mood.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I do not know how many hon. members heard the program this morning that comes on right after the news at eight o'clock-it is one of my favourite programs-in which a speech from the throne was delivered by one of our friends who sit above us and observe us from a lofty eminence. It was said in that broadcast that I had expressed appreciation-perhaps the extent of it was exaggerated a little bit-for the cooperation of the opposition. I must say that I do think that in so far as the management of the house is concerned, the co-operation of the opposition ever since September 30-I say nothing about the early part of the session-in the difficult circumstances of this particular parliament has been very good indeed, and I continue to say so.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


[Stage Direction]
It being twenty five minutes after seven o'clock the house adjourned, without question put.
[The following Items were passed in committee of supply this day:]

[Stage Direction]
1 Departmental administration including Canada's share of the upkeep of the international bureaux at Berne and Montevideo, $2,083,500.
5. Operations including salaries and other expenses of staff post offices, district offices, railway mail service staffs, and supplies, equipment and other items for revenue post offices, including administration, $121,454,700.
10. Transportation-Movement of mail by land, air and water including administration, $64,650,400.
10a. Transportation-Movement of mail by land, air and water, including administration $238,000.
15. Financial services including audit of revenue, money order and savings bank business; and postage stamps, $3,260,400.
[Stage Direction]
Thursday, December 19, 1963