1963-12-14

Hon. Guy Favreau (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration) moved: that the house go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following resolution, which has been recommended to the house by His Excellency:
That the house do go into committee of the whole at its next sitting to consider the following proposed resolution which has been recommended to the house by His Excellency:-
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to provide for the disposition of Indian claims and in relation thereto,-
1.	To provide for the establishment of an Indian claims commission;
2.	To provide for the duties of the commission, its decisions and awards;
3.	To provide for appeals from the decisions of the commission to the Indian claims appeal court; and
4.	To enact such financial provisions as may be necessary to accomplish the purposes of the act.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Leader of the Opposition):: First I should like to say to the Prime Minister that we are glad to see him back in the house. We were disturbed yesterday when the flag at 24 Sussex street was flying upside down. But in all sincerity I would like to say how very glad we are to see him back.
Now I wish to ask the right hon. gentleman a question arising out of press dispatches this morning to the effect that at the dominion-provincial conference the premier of Quebec insisted on Canada pension plan premiums to the extent of 4 per cent instead of the proposed 2 per cent as the price of its agreement to an amendment to the British North America Act permitting survivors and disabled to be included in the plan. The information has not been available to the house, and I now ask the Prime Minister to tell the house what actually took place and whether or not this statement represents the situation.


Right Hon. L. B. Pearson (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to begin by thanking my right hon. friend for his welcome back to the house and to assure him that the flag was upside down at Sussex street only because of sympathy for myself, inasmuch as I felt a little upside down yesterday.


John George Diefenbaker: So it was intentional?


Lester Bowles Pearson: In so far as the question is concerned, the report in the Globe and Mail to which my right hon. friend refers, and which indicates that widows, orphans and invalids are at present included in the Canada pension plan, is inaccurate and based on a misstatement of the published facts about the Canada pension plan. The report, as I have just indicated, says that pensions for disabled people and for younger widows and orphans are at present included in the Canada pension plan.
That, Mr. Speaker, is not the case. The plan as described to the house on July 18 and subsequently, the plan as it has been discussed with the provinces, does not provide pensions for people below the age of 65. It does not require a constitutional amendment. It may be that in the future, if there is a plan in effect, steps can be taken along these lines and those steps would require a constitutional amendment. But that is not the case with the present plan, and there has been no discussion with the provinces of an alteration in the plan to that effect. No constitutional amendment is required for the plan that has been put to the house and to the provinces, and no province has ever claimed any veto over this plan as it has been put forward.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I then ask the Prime Minister to advise the house now whether Premier Lesage insisted on Canada pension plan premiums totalling 4 per cent instead of 2 per cent.


Lester Bowles Pearson: No, Mr. Lesage did not insist on any such thing.


Mr. Stanley Knowles (Winnipeg Norih Centre):: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. In view of the fact that the Minister of National Health and Welfare on July 18, although she made it clear these other items were not included in the Canada pension plan, referred to them as matters to be discussed
5872	HOUSE OF
Inquiries of the Ministry with the provinces, may I ask whether Mr. Lesage related the two in any way at the recent conference?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated a moment ago the government hopes that in due course the plan can be extended in the way that has been suggested in this article to cover widows with dependent children, orphans and disabled contributors, and the possibility of a future extension of the plan in that direction has been discussed with the provinces. This would require a constitutional amendment, and certain provinces have agreed to such a constitutional amendment in the future after the plan is in effect. But all the provinces have not agreed. The province of Quebec has not agreed to that yet, and the matter is still under discussion.


Hon. J. W. Monieith (Perth):: Mr. Speaker, may I ask a supplementary question. I think the Prime Minister intimated there was no demand that the total deduction be 4 per cent, but was the possibility of a 4 per cent deduction discussed?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Yes. In the course of discussion the question of an amount for deduction was discussed. It was pointed out that under the proposed Quebec plan there was to be a 4 per cent deduction and under the proposed federal plan there would be a lower deduction. The whole matter was discussed.



FINDING OF GLASS IN SHIPMENTS TO RUSSIA

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. T. C. Douglas (Burnaby-Coquitlam):: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of Transport. Some time ago he said he was setting up a committee to look into the matter of glass in Canadian wheat shipments and I wonder whether he has a report ready. I also wonder whether he has seen the statement made by Montreal port manager Guy Beaudet to the effect that only one hold in each of the seven cargoes had been contaminated by glass, and not the entire shipments. I wonder if the minister would agree that the sooner a statement can be made to substantiate the statement by Mr. Beaudet, the more we can reassure Canada's wheat customers that the situation is not as serious as it had been made to appear in earlier reports.


Hon. G. J. Mcllraiih (Minister of Transport):: Mr. Speaker, I had a statement earlier in the week on this whole subject. Perhaps, in view of the item in this morning's newspaper, it would better serve the interests of the house if that particular statement I had


ready earlier were brought up to date and included a reference to the statement in this morning's press. This could be done on Monday.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: I am sure the minister would agree that the sooner a statement is made the better, in view of the very alarming reports that went out initially. I am surprised the minister did not make the statement when he had it here.



TRANS-CANADA AIR LINES WINNIPEG MAINTENANCE BASE    INQUIRY AS TO MEETING WITH MANITOBA DELEGATION

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Gordon Churchill (Winnipeg South Centre):: I should like to ask the Minister of Transport if he now has an answer for the house with regard to the proposed meeting between representatives of the Manitoba government and this government concerning the Winnipeg T.C.A. overhaul and maintenance base.


George James McIlraith: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the delegation is coming on Tuesday of next week to meet with the government.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Could the minister indicate the time of the meeting and the room in which it will be held?


George James McIlraith: It is ten o'clock in the forenoon, but I do not know the room number.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, will the meeting be in a room where other members from Manitoba can be present, as was the case on June 18?


George James McIlraith: Well, Mr. Speaker, the Manitoba group have requested the meeting with the government. So far as the government are concerned, we would be quite happy to have other members at the meeting. However, I would think we would have to clear that with the Manitoba delegation, because after all they are the ones who asked for the meeting. So far as this government is concerned, it is quite happy to have other members from Manitoba present.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Would the minister like to know that the Manitoba members have been advised by the delegation that they would like us there?


George James McIlraith: I am sorry that the Manitoba delegation did not do the government the courtesy of advising us at the same time of that fact.



INQUIRY AS TO INVESTIGATION INTO RECENT CRASH

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Erik Nielsen (Yukon):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Transport regarding the recent tragic accident involving a T.C.A. DC-8. Could the minister inform the house whether the aircraft investigation branch of the R.C.A.F. has now assumed over-all control of the investigation into the accident?


George James McIlraith: No, Mr. Speaker, but I should add that every resource that can be thought of that could contribute to finding out the cause of the accident is being used. There are a great many activities going on and a great many resources being co-ordinated, which involves bringing in investigating teams from many segments of the public service.


Erik Nielsen: As a supplementary question, can the minister inform the house whether any of the technical personnel from his department are in the United States as observers in connection with the investigation of the recent crash of a Boeing 707?


George James McIlraith: I would like to take that question as notice.



STATEMENT BY PRESIDENT RESPECTING CHANGE TO &quot;AIR CANADA&quot;

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. L. J. Pigeon (Jolieile-L'Assomplion-Monlcalm):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the right hon. Prime Minister. Would the right hon. gentleman give the house the benefit of his comment on the reported statement by Mr. McGregor in Montreal that it will take three years to change the name of T.C.A. to "Air Canada", and is this now government policy?


Lester Bowles Pearson: I think I had better look at the record, Mr. Speaker. I am not sure that Mr. McGregor put his statement in that form at all. In any event I will look at the record, and perhaps the Minister of Transport will have something to say about it on Monday.


Mr. Gilles Gregoire (Lapointe):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to ask a supplementary question.
Since it is rather financial problems which prevent the immediate change in the name of T.C.A., would the Prime Minister contemplate having these expenses paid by the privy council or the Department of Transport, in order to promote bilingualism in Canada?
Inquiries of the Ministry



NATIONAL DEFENCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. W. Herridge (Kootenay West):: should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Defence, but in his absence I shall direct it to the associate minister. Has General Charles Foulkes been temporarily re-employed by the government or called to Ottawa in any advisory capacity? If so, for what period?


Hon. Lucien Cardin (Associate Minister of National Defence):: Not to my knowledge, Mr. Speaker. However, I shall have the matter looked into and report to the hon. member on Monday.



REPORTED GROUNDING OF CF-100 SQUADRONS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Robert C. Coates (Cumberland):: In the
absence of the Minister of National Defence I should like to direct a question to the Associate Minister of National Defence. According to news reports the CF-100 squadrons from Canada have been grounded, and I should like to know from the minister if this is a correct statement and, if so, for what reason?


Louis-Joseph-Lucien Cardin: Mr. Speaker, I am not aware that the R.C.A.F. CF-100 squadrons have been grounded. However, I will look into the matter.



EXTERNAL AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Andrew Brewin (Greenwood):: In the
absence of the Secretary of State for External Affairs, I should like to address a question to the right hon. Prime Minister. Will the government of Canada take advantage of the conciliatory statement of policy made in San Francisco yesterday by the United States assistant secretary of state for far eastern affairs in regard to negotiations between the United States and red China, to bring to the attention of the United States government the views expressed by the Secretary of State for External Affairs that continued isolation of red China is dangerous and that effective disarmament is impossible as long as this isolation continues?

Inquiries of the Ministry


Lester Bowles Pearson: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I will be glad to look into that question. It is one of great importance, and I would not care to say anything more about it at this stage. Perhaps I could have a statement on Monday.


UNITED NATIONS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Secretary of State for External Affairs I would like to ask the Prime Minister a question regarding a news item from the United Nations which appeared in the Toronto Telegram of December 13, respecting the contributions to be made by the members of the United Nations for the organization's Middle East force. It states:
The difference between what the U.N. majority is willing to pay and what the west feels the majority should pay will be made up, of course, by the western countries, such as Canada.
Canadian acquiescence to the "compromise" was announced yesterday by Senator T. D'Arcy Leonard of the Canadian delegation in a speech before the assembly's budgetary committee.
I ask the Prime Minister how much will be the extra contributions to be made by Canada to the peace keeping operations of the United Nations, and how much will Canadian taxpayers be called upon to contribute in view of the default among such nations as the Soviet union, some Latin American and some Asian and African countries?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, I saw the report in the press to which my right hon. friend refers, and I have asked for a report on the matter from external affairs. I would be glad to say something about it on Monday.


John George Diefenbaker: Could the Prime Minister say what instructions were given to Senator Leonard of the Canadian delegation which resulted in him agreeing to a compromise?


Lester Bowles Pearson: I have not got those instructions in my mind at the moment, but I will include that in my statement on Monday.


FEDERAL DISTRICT
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Leon Balcer (Three Rivers):: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask a question of the Prime Minister. Can he tell us whether the
[Mr. Brewin.l

Minister of Justice was expressing government policy when he said last night that he was very much in favour of a federal district for Ottawa?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, I think the minister, in the statement to which my hon. friend refers, emphasized that he was expressing his personal views on this question.


FINANCE
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Eldon M. Woolliams (Bow River):: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask a question of the Prime Minister. In view of the fact that he was not here when questions were put about the statement he made to the Canadian Labour Congress endorsing deficit financing, does he not suggest now that his views are at variance with those of the Minister of Finance, and is he contemplating a change in that portfolio?


Lester Bowles Pearson: No, Mr. Speaker.



ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Justice. In view of the serious charges made by Mr. Jacques Hebert in his book, which cast doubts on the honesty of the judicial authority, is it the government's intention to take legal or disciplinary measures against him, if his allegations are proven untrue?


Hon. Lionel Chevrier (Minister of Justice):: Mr. Speaker, I explained yesterday our stand on that matter. With regard to the second part of his question, the hon. member is aware that this matter does not come under the jurisdiction of the federal government.



CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Ralph Cowan (York-Humber):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question I would like to address to the Secretary of State. Does he himself consider that the correction the C.B.C.

news gave at seven o'clock last night with regard to the vote on the assistance payments was itself a correct report of what occurred in this house?


Hon. J. W. Pickersgill (Secretary of State):: Mr. Speaker, I did happen to hear that particular correction, and I must say it was just as incorrect as the original report that the hon. member for Burnaby-Coquitlam (Mr. Douglas) made a question of privilege yesterday; because the statement was made that an amendment that was rejected referred to the date October 1. There was no such amendment proposed, and the amendment that was proposed would only have had the effect of delaying the increased assistance payments.


Some hon. Members:: Shame.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Mr. Speaker, would the Secretary of State take this matter up with the minister to whom the C.B.C. reports?


John Whitney Pickersgill: No, I do not think I will bother.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: I am afraid you will find him most unresponsive.



REQUEST FOR ASSISTANCE TO VICTIMS OF LANDSLIDE

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Jean-Louis Freneiie (Porineuf):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to put a question to the Prime Minister. Has any assistance been requested for the people who were the victims of a landslide in St. Joachim de Tour-elle and, if so, does he intend to do anything to help out?


Lester Bowles Pearson: No, Mr. Speaker. I assume that a request of that kind, at least in the first instance, would go to the provincial government.



CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Prime Minister. Could he tell us what is the duration of the present term of office of the C.N.R. president?
Inquiries of the Ministry


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, if my hon. friend will look at the statement I made in the house at that time I think he will find this point is covered. I would prefer to leave it at that at the moment. I will send him the statement.


Gilles Grégoire: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.
I have here the statement the Prime Minister made that day and it does not mention the duration of the term of office. My purpose in asking the question is to get that point cleared up.


Lester Bowles Pearson: I think it was made clear in that statement that he was appointed for a regular period but indicated his intention of retiring before the end of that period; I think it was after 18 months.



REQUEST FOR IMPROVED QUARTERS FOR INTERPRETERS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Lucien Plourde (Quebec West):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Secretary of State. My question is related to the one I asked on October 2 last.
Could the minister tell the house whether the government will provide, for the end of January, a new room for our interpreters, since their present room is very cold in winter and much too small?


John Whitney Pickersgill: I think I had better take that question as notice, Mr. Speaker.



SUGGESTED INVESTIGATION INTO PRICES AND SUPPLY

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. A. Olson (Medicine Hat):: Mr. Speaker, I would like to pose a question to the right hon. Prime Minister and ask him whether the government is now considering an investigation into the whole price structure and supply of sugar in Canada.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, I would have to discuss that matter with the Minister of Trade and Commerce. At the moment I cannot add anything to what he has said.

Inquiries of the Ministry


Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. I would ask the Prime Minister, then, if he would use his influence to keep the sugar factories going that are now in operation in Canada, rather than having some of them shut down.


Lester Bowles Pearson: I will be glad to do that.



INDUSTRY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. George C. Nowlan (Digby-Annapolis-Kings):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Minister of Industry whether he has yet received a report from his experts who were in Toronto. If not, when does he expect to have it?


Hon. C. M. Drury (Minister of Industry):: Mr. Speaker, I have not received a report from Atomic Energy of Canada Limited. As I said the other day, I expect to have this late on Monday, and I still have that expectation.



COLUMBIA RIVER


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. D. V. Pugh (Okanagan Boundary):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Prime Minister or perhaps the Secretary of State. The understanding is that a statement will soon be made on the Columbia river with reference to the three governments. In the event that such a statement is made shortly, when will it be put to the house or to the external affairs committee?


Lester Bowles Pearson: The statement will be made as soon as it can be made. If circumstances make it possible, and if there is agreement, it will be sent to the external affairs committee as soon as that can be done, next session I presume.


David Vaughan Pugh: A supplementary question. With reference to the delay, if this statement is made shortly, which might occur just before the adjournment of the house, would there be a special call for that committee to meet during the recess?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I am afraid it would not be possible under the rules for a committee to meet between sessions.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, if I might just say a word be-

fore we proceed, from what I have been able to discover there would be no objection to going into committee of ways and means for the purpose of dealing with the government notice of motion which is on the notice paper and which has been, I believe, explained to hon. gentlemen opposite through the usual channels, and some less than usual channels. It pertains to the Customs Tariff, and if it could be disposed of without debate the bill, which will be in substance precisely the same as the resolution, will then be available for debate on Monday.


Mr. Speaker:: Is the house agreeable to this line of procedure?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Mr. Howard:: Mr. Speaker, might I just say that if the Secretary of State would conduct his affairs through the less than usual channels, as he referred to them, a little more often, perhaps more co-operation would be forthcoming.



WAYS AND MEANS

[Stage Direction]
The house in committee of ways and means, Mr. Lamoureux in the chair.

[Stage Direction]
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to amend the Customs Tariff to provide that tariff items 28a, 209e, 210i and 263e be amended, effective January 1, 1964, to read as follows:
Most-
Fa-
British voured-
Tariff	Preferential Nation	GeneralItem	Tariff	Tariff	Tariff28a Tea	
Free	Free	Free209e Potassium chloride .. Free	Free	25 p.c.
(Applicable to December 31, 1965)
210i Sodium hypochlorite
in	solution	 15	p.c.	20 p.c.	30 p.c.
(Applicable to December 31, 1965)
263e Compounds of tetramethyl lead, in which tetramethyl lead is the preponderant constituent by
weight	121	P-c.	121 p.c.	25 p.c.
(Applicable to December 31, 1965)
Resolution reported and concurred in.

John Whitney Pickersgill: for leave to introduce Bill No. C-129, to amend the Customs Tariff.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Lamoureux in the chair.


DEPARTMENT OF CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION
[Stage Direction]
1. Departmental administration, $976,200.
Guy Favreau: Mr. Chairman, I hope you will convey my apologies to the Speaker for having stood up for more than 30 seconds, as I did a few minutes ago, instead of just bowing when he was desperately trying to introduce the government motion pertaining to Indian affairs. It was a slight case of inexperience and absentmindedness.

Mr. Chairman, it has not been the practice of the house, when considering the estimates of the Department of Citizenship and Immigration, to have a general discussion when the departmental administration vote is called. In the past it has been agreed, both by those who have held this portfolio and by members of the committee, that the most effective way of handling the estimates is to provide for discussion of each main area of the department's activities as the first item in that particular area is reached. These areas are the estimates of the citizenship and immigration branches on the one hand and Indian affairs on the other.
To follow this course, I believe, will facilitate the committee's consideration of a department whose activities are diverse and complex, ranging from the Yukon Territory to Cape Breton within our borders, and from Dublin to Hong Kong beyond our shores.
While the range of responsibilities of the Department of Citizenship and Immigration is a broad one, there is a common unity of purpose which binds it together. Each branch of the department is concerned with the most valuable and by far the most complex of our resources: our human resources.
The immigration branch selects future citizens for our country. The two citizenship branches encourage and assist newcomers to reach the status of Canadian citizenship, and the Indian affairs branch is dedicated to assist the Indians to achieve full citizenship.
As the former prime minister, the Right Hon. Mr. St. Laurent, expressed it in 1949 when the department was formed:
Having citizenship and immigration and Indian affairs in one department would indicate that the purpose of the activities of that department was to make Canadian citizens of those who were born here, of the original inhabitants of the territory, or those who migrated to this country.
I should like at this time to acknowledge the great contribution made by the officers and staff of the department in all its branches.
Despite the great distances which separate many of the activities at home and abroad and despite the variety of responsibilities, the 28902-5-374
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration members of the department seem to share in the common purposes and objectives which provide the basis of their organization. I have found that they are competent, that they work hard and that they are dedicated to the best traditions of the public service.
To make progress in the best way, let us start by discussing the first item on citizenship vote 5, the citizenship registration branch. I shall make a statement on citizenship and immigration, covering the general field of votes 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30 and 35, after which other members may make their general comments.
When the citizenship and immigration items are completed, we will then repeat the process when the first item is reached on the Indian affairs votes, leaving departmental administration to the end.
With the concurrence of the committee then, Mr. Chairman, I suggest we leave vote 1 and turn to votes 5 to 35 inclusive.
Do I have the consent of the committee?


The Chairman:: Is that agreed?


Mr. Skoreyko:: What is the purpose, again, of the minister's request?


Guy Favreau: The purpose is to enable a more orderly discussion of the estimates. The department is composed of three main branches, citizenship, immigration, and Indian affairs, and I am given to understand that in the past it has been the practice to break up the discussion; to begin, with the minister's general statement, followed by members' discussion on citizenship and immigration, and then for the minister to make a general statement on Indian affairs, followed by a further discussion on that subject. I suggest we might proceed by considering the first item and debating it, and then proceed to item No. 35, after a discussion of which the committee could return to pass the first item.


Mr. Patterson:: That may work out satisfactorily, but I recall that when a similar arrangement was tried the other evening it did not succeed too well. After all, if item 1 is not passed there is no minister and no provision for administration.


Charles Benjamin Howard: The minister has outlined the way in which this has been dealt with in the past, and what he has suggested does make for a more orderly approach. However, at this stage of the session there is, I understand, a rush to finish our business, presumably by next week end. This being the case the committee could easily find itself in the position of spending an inordinately long time in discussing citizenship and immigration at the expense of the time which
5878	HOUSE OF
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration might be available for the consideration of Indian affairs. We might find that everything had to be condensed into the last few minutes of the day. If there could be some guarantee that we would spend an appropriate amount of time on Indian affairs, without extending the hours of sitting as they have been unanimously agreed, I am sure we could look at the minister's suggestion favourably.


Guy Favreau: The hon. member knows that my suggestion contained no intent to shorten the discussion of Indian affairs, but it is true, as he suggested, that this might be a possible consequence of any such arrangement. I am in the hands of the committee. If the committee would prefer to discuss Indian affairs first, I would have no objection. I think the passage of these estimates would take longer still if we were to have an extended discussion on the first item.


Charles Benjamin Howard: I gather the suggestion of the minister was that we should divide consideration of these estimates into two parts, first citizenship and immigration and then Indian affairs. Perhaps we should proceed to consider the citizenship estimates to a point of time about half way in the day's sitting. We could then devote the other half of our time to Indian affairs. That would be perfectly acceptable to me if it is acceptable to the committee.


William Skoreyko: I can see no point in agreeing to proceed until a certain time in the afternoon and then entering upon discussion of another question. I think we should either abide by the suggestion put forward by the minister or else proceed along the line suggested by the hon. member for Fraser Valley.


Lucien Lamoureux: Is it the wish of the committee that we proceed first to discuss citizenship and immigration; then when we have disposed of that item, go on to consider the Indian affairs branch, and then revert to item one?


Charles Benjamin Howard: I think in view of the objection which has been raised we had better do what was done in connection with the estimates of the Department of Justice and have a general discussion. I think we should include Indian affairs in the discussion on the first item.


Lucien Lamoureux: Perhaps in that case we should accept the suggestion by the hon. member for Skeena and follow the course he has proposed.


Guy Favreau: The Canadian Citizenship Act came into force on January 1, 1947, and provides for the legal status of Canadian


citizens. The act is administered almost entirely by the Canadian citizenship registration branch, which has an establishment of 96 at headquarters in Ottawa, and 64 in the citizenship courts situated in various centres in Canada. The most recent citizenship court was established in Ottawa in March of 1963. There are nine other courts in Toronto, Montreal, Hamilton, London, Vancouver, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Moncton and Windsor.
These, along with the regularly constituted courts, provide facilities for persons wishing to apply for Canadian citizenship. In addition, 56 persons have been appointed to act as courts for the purpose of the Canadian Citizenship Act in remote areas. Four similar appointments have been made overseas for the assistance of servicemen.
At this point I would like to inform the hon. members who have expressed an interest in the qualifications which must be met by an applicant for Canadian citizenship, that a review is at present being made of the standards required of applicants from the inception of the Canadian Citizenship Act to the present time, with a view to establishing as far as it is possible uniform criteria across Canada.
In 1962, 72,080 persons became Canadian citizens. This is the third highest number for any one year, the highest being in 1957 when 95,462 certificates were granted, and the second highest is 1958 when 84,183 grants were made. From January 1, 1947 to December 31, 1962 a total of 654,379 persons have been granted citizenship in Canada. In addition, 389,586 certificates were issued to persons who wished to have proof of their status as Canadians.
It has been ascertained that approximately 40 per cent of the immigrants who entered Canada in the 10 year period 1953 to 1962 who are eligible for Canadian citizenship have become Canadians. Fitting and appropriate ceremonies for the presentation of certificates of citizenship can provide a most important symbol of the benefits to new Canadians and to others also of the acquisition of Canadian citizenship. For this reason consideration is being given to expanding the number of courts. Plans are at present being considered for the establishment of a court of Canadian citizenship in Calgary. Through these media and through appropriate publicity it is hoped to encourage a greater number of people to apply for Canadian citizenship.
With respect to the Canadian citizenship branch, it is responsible for two main programs; first, developing a greater degree of understanding of Canadian citizenship and of group relations amongst newcomers, Indians and Canadians generally through advisory and financial assistance to organizations and

agencies engaged in citizenship education and community action; and second, for immigrant instruction by providing textbooks to provincial departments of education and others conducting classes for adult newcomers, and by providing matching grants to provincial and territorial governments for citizenship and language teaching costs.
The increase in this vote is minimal, about 3.5 per cent. It results almost entirely from the larger amount provided for payments to provinces for the conduct of language classes for immigrants. For such classes the federal government matches the contributions made to local school boards by the provincial governments. The increase results from higher teachers' salaries and increased efforts to reach immigrants in remote areas, housewives and hospitalized newcomers, and to develop language courses within the vocational retraining programs for immigrant workers. The only other allotment which has increased over the past year is salaries, up about 2 per cent as a result of the salary revisions. There have been no increases in staff.
There is one development in particular which I should like to bring to the attention of the committee. As hon. members are aware, persons of Indian status and ancestry have been moving to urban areas in rapidly increasing numbers during recent years. In general, Canadian communities have been quick to respond to the needs of these people, and their adjustment has been aided considerably by the establishment of friendship centres in a number of urban communities. The first of these centres was organized in Winnipeg in 1957 and eight more have been added since that time. Last year new centres were started in Toronto, The Pas, the Battlefords, Prince Albert and Edmonton. Interest in friendship centres is increasing. It is hoped and expected that many others will be organized within the next few years.

I should like at this time to outline some thoughts of the government on immigration matters and a few developments which have taken place since I took office several months ago.
That Canada should continue to encourage immigration is self-evident; people from other lands make a positive contribution to our nation's economic and social well-being. There are considerations of national interest for encouraging immigration and there are other more human considerations, such as family re-union, the reduction of discrimination based on origin or creed and the acceptance of charitable and humanitarian re-28902-5-374J
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration sponsibilities. Through immigration we can do much to abolish antagonisms and to foster understanding.
Our manpower needs are changing and the needs of other countries are changing with conditions and circumstances. For this reason, immigration policies should be reviewed fairly frequently. There is another reason as well: it has been established for many years that immigration to Canada is not a fundamental human right, but a privilege, and that mass immigration should take into consideration the general economic and social factors of Canada.
With these considerations in mind, the government in 1963 has continued the policy initiated by the previous government early this year of pursuing a more aggressive program. It has been difficult to increase the flow of immigrants, but a beginning has been made.
During the first 10 months of this year, 79,628 immigrants arrived in Canada, and I expect that by the end of 1963, there will be about 92,000. This compares favourably with the 1961 and 1962 totals of 71,689 and 74,586 respectively. Our objective for next year is to revert to the pre-1959 figures of well in excess of 100,000, the exact number to be determined by the response to improved methods of recruiting immigrants of suitable types.
During the past months, we have been conducting an intensive study of immigration policy and procedures. We have particularly concerned ourselves with Canada's economic requirements for manpower and population and with Canada's humanitarian responsibilities. As for immigration from an economic viewpoint, we have concluded that it should consist mainly of young, skilled workers and of entrepreneurs with the capital and experience needed to become established in their own self-operated enterprises in Canada. Such persons fit into our economy and society with little or no difficulty and, far from taking employment away from Canadians, they can be instrumental in helping create jobs for unskilled Canadian workers.
To obtain such immigrants, the department will pursue a vigorous informational and promotional program in the countries which have traditionally been our principal sources, such as the United Kingdom, France and the U.S.A. To this end we intend to open two offices in France, in addition to that which has been at Paris for many years, if the necessary arrangements can be made with the French authorities.
We shall continue to provide service to immigrants in other parts of the world as interest and volume warrant. In this respect,
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Supply-Citizenship and Immigration we have recently established permanent offices in Cairo and Madrid, and an officer has been assigned to Beirut on a temporary, experimental basis.
In countries where our offices are not located, travelling teams of trained immigration officers will continue to make periodic visits to assess the qualifications of individual applicants and determine their suitability as future Canadian residents. So far this year, officers who visited the West Indies and central and South American countries, have selected 1,139 persons on the basis of individual merit. Travelling officers have also selected 1,106 persons living in various Pacific islands and countries in the Middle East.
With respect to humanitarian immigration, we have continued to give recognition to Canada's position as one of the more prosperous countries in the world community, by providing for special movements of persons in a refugee or quasi-refugee situation, as a result of war or other disaster.
To illustrate, 217 refugees sponsored by reliable persons were admitted during the first 10 months of this year, even though the immigrants could not meet the normal occupational requirements for admission, and arrangements are being completed for an additional 192 refugees in similar circumstances.
Also, Canada as a special project, in cooperation with the United Nations high commissioner for refugees, undertook to settle 24 physically or socially handicapped refugees. They have now been settled in employment by immigration staffs and I am happy to say are doing well. In addition to such special movements, of which these are but two, approximately 1,000 refugees have come individually for settlement; and I am at the moment giving consideration to a pilot project for the movement of 100 families from Hong Kong in co-operation with the council of churches.
It is important to achieve the best possible integration of policies relating to employment and to immigration, in the light of the most reliable economic studies that can be made.
Arrangements are in progress to establish an interdepartmental committee of senior officials of interested departments to assess the economic aspects of immigration policy on a continuing basis and to advise my department in this respect.
In the course of reviewing our policies I have also been attempting to bring the Immigration Act and regulations more into line with changes which have taken place in our economic and social environment and with advances in the field of medicine. This is a many-sided, complex and sensitive area. I am reviewing very carefully representations which have been made to me concerning

certain of the immigration regulations which on their practical effect can create arbitrary distinctions in the privileges of sponsorships which are enjoyed by Canadian citizens.
Moreover, I shall be introducing within the next few days a system for assessing settlement arrangements for sponsored immigrants according to standard criteria. This should do much to clarify the requirements and obligations of sponsors and thus eliminate most of the uncertainty which has existed with respect to the matter in the past.
Finally, plans for integrating customs-immigration primary inspection at border ports of entry have been put into effect, with total savings to date of almost $300,000. In carrying out our integration plans, we have taken care to ensure that no immigration or customs officer at present employed will be deprived of his job.
This terminates my introductory statement concerning the citizenship and immigration branches.
May I turn now to the various problems affecting Indian affairs.

In introducing discussion of the estimates of the Indian affairs branch I should like to pay tribute to my immediate predecessors in office, who maintained and developed many of the basic programs initiated prior to 1957 and who, in turn, laid the foundation for many worth-while projects which we shall be moving forward as quickly as possible.
I wish also to thank members from all sides of the house who have written and spoken to me about ideas and suggestions and who have sent forward constructive criticisms. Many of the members have shown their interest by well taken and searching questions, either put orally or placed on the order paper. This non-partisan interest and concern for the welfare and advancement of Indians has been heartwarming and encouraging for me in taking up the responsibilities of superintendent general of Indian affairs. I am confident we can continue to work together effectively in our efforts to find the best means of assisting the Indians of Canada to make the difficult adjustment required to meet the demands of a bewildering and complex time.
Indeed, it is only if we all work together in this house, and with the full co-operation and support of the provinces, municipalities, churches, voluntary agencies and private efforts of Canadian citizens, that success can be expected for the Indians. There are no single measures on which we can rely for a solution of the problems involved. The task calls for hard work and sacrifice. We must be ready to accommodate ourselves to the

legitimate demands of the Indians, and to recognize and respect the different values and aspirations inherent in their culture. We must go much further and create bonds of confidence and mutual respect. We must listen as well as speak, and learn before we attempt to teach.
We know from experience here and abroad that doing things for people, giving them gifts and granting them favours, brings many evils; complacency and patronage on the part of the giver, dependency and loss of confidence for the receiver. Our primary task, then, must be to provide opportunities for the Indians to help themselves. At present many Indians rely heavily upon the federal government and upon the protective and restrictive provisions of the Indian Act for their economic and cultural survival.


Lucien Lamoureux: Order. I regret to interrupt the minister, but his time has expired.


An hon. Member:: Let him go on.


Lucien Lamoureux: Is it agreed?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Guy Favreau: I thank the committee. We must make it possible for them of their own free will and in their own time, to regain selfconfidence, to maintain pride of race and achieve control under their own leadership. This result, when attained, will eliminate the need for special programs, special legislation and special services. As long as these are required, the goal of independence on an equal footing with other Canadians will not have been accomplished.
Not the least of the needs we face is a new look at Indian legislation. We are proceeding to review the Indian Act as quickly as a sound and thorough consideration will permit. Our objective in amending the act will be to give the Indian people a stronger voice in the conduct of their own affairs. The emphasis will be on Indian initiative and responsibility, and a loosening of the paternalistic ties. We also propose to follow the practice first begun in 1951, and repeated in 1955, of consulting Indian groups and bands before this new legislation is passed.
Another matter requiring attention is the establishment of an Indian claims commission. The joint committee of the Senate and House of Commons on Indian affairs recommended that such a commission should be established to hear matters of long standing concern and grievance to Indians. A resolution to introduce this legislation is now on the order paper, and it is my hope that this resolution will pass and that the bill will be given first reading before the house rises.
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration Once this is done I intend to send the proposed legislation providing for the disposition of Indian claims to the Indian bands and organizations across the country for study and consideration.
One of the most encouraging aspects of Indian affairs today is the interest being taken by the provinces and provincial agencies in the welfare of the Indian people. I refer to the provincial and local school board co-operation that is enabling thousands of Indian children to attend integrated schools; to the increasing participation of Indian bands in provincial social and economic assistance programs; to the co-operation received from provincial governments in the road building program for Indian reserves; and to other examples of provincial interest and action which I shall mention further on in the course of my remarks. Also I acknowledge the very welcome aid being given by various private agencies who join with us in a desire to better the future for fellow Canadians of the Indian race.
Last month, for the first time in Canadian history, the question of Indian affairs was discussed at a federal-provincial conference. I am glad to report a large measure of agreement. It was agreed that Indians should be associated more closely with the life of other Canadians and that Indians have full equality of opportunities. It was recognized that the time has come to find the basis on which the widest possible range of federal, provincial and municipal services currently provided to non-Indians can be extended to Indians, and that the Indians must be consulted throughout. It was agreed that a further meeting should be held, if possible by May 1964, at which provincial ministers and their senior officials would discuss with us this whole question in greater detail. Preparation and planning for this next meeting is now under way. I sincerely believe that through this new development we are entering a new phase and have reached a turning point in the field of Indian affairs in Canada.
A sound body of knowledge is essential to the continuing development of effective programs. The government, therefore, is sponsoring a Canada-wide Indian research program. In announcing this undertaking in the house on December 2 last I mentioned that the study, conducted by social scientists from the universities, would cover four major areas concerning Indians; economic development; advancement in education; responsibilities that exist at various government levels; and band councils and the development of selfgovernment. In addition to the main areas of research, a number of supplementary studies would be made on related subjects.
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Supply-Citizenship and Immigration
Basic to our efforts is the willingness of the Indian people to carry themselves forward. The great majority, I am certain, are determined to take advantage of every opportunity provided to them for advancement.
Opportunity requires sound training, both academic and technical. The 1963-64 estimates for the Indian affairs branch reflect the emphasis on education in that 57.1 per cent of the amount requested is designated for education purposes, including an amount of $25,294,810 for the administration, operation and maintenance of the school program and $5,792,000 for capital expenditures. There is an increase this year in the operation vote attributable to an over-all increase in enrolment and an expected rise in education costs for Indian children attending non-Indian schools. The number of children enrolled in non-Indian schools now exceeds 18,500, or almost 40 per cent of the Indian school population.
A scholarship program for Indian students has been continued from previous years with encouraging results. In addition other financial assistance, including the payment of tuition fees, was given to 3,344 students to enable them to complete high school, university and vocational training courses. Indian parents, too, are showing greater interest in education. There are now 40 Indian school committees which are in effect embryonic school boards, and which constitute a basic step toward Indian responsibility for the operation of schools on reserves.
Efforts toward the inclusion of Indians in welfare programs of the provinces must be continued and intensified. It is recognized that there is also a need for the establishment of services designed to help those residing in Indian communities to provide for their own needs. The establishment of such services is now under active consideration.
The opportunities for mature and competent Indian men and women, prepared to give leadership in the reserve community and elsewhere, are constantly broadening. Emphasis is being placed on training programs to enable Indians to develop more fully their potential capacity for leadership roles. Utilization of training facilities and resources offered by various governmental and private organizations has made possible marked expansion in this field.
Economic development programs are vital. In agriculture, provision is being made to continue and expand the practice of lending cattle on rotation to selected Indians. Agricultural conferences to stimulate interest and improve the methods used by Indian farmers have been successfully undertaken, and Indian farmers are being encouraged to avail


themselves of the services offered by the federal and provincial departments of agriculture.
The number of selected Indians placed in permanent employment, with the co-operation of the national employment service, is growing year by year and has now reached a total of 1,617, including 477 in 1962-63. In addition there were over 5,000 rural and seasonal placements made last year with assistance from the national employment service. This does not include the many Indians who obtained employment independently or with assistance from their local agency superintendent.
Extensive assistance is provided those Indians who still pursue their traditional vocations of hunting, trapping and fishing, and harvesting wild crops. A ten year agreement with the province of Ontario concerning renewable resources development has completed its first year of operation and shows promise. Similar programs are being carried on in other provinces by formal agreement, as in Manitoba and Saskatchewan, or under informal working arrangements. Notable in the latter case are joint surveys of the renewable resources potential in British Columbia and Quebec.
The value of handicraft production as a supplementary source of income is recognized by inclusion in the estimates of an amount to provide for instruction and supervision, the furnishing of raw materials, and the purchase and sale of finished handicraft items.
Another matter of importance is the expanding economy of the Indians is the development of forest resources on Indian reserves. Provision is made in the estimates for forestry investigations and for the continuing costs of reforestation.
Various measures by which the government seeks to alleviate distress caused by seasonal declines in employment are being applied on Indian reserves throughout the country. Indian bands are participating in the municipal winter works incentive program and, up to the the end of November, 43 applications from Indian bands, totalling $143,000, had been approved. In addition 70 projects amounting to $383,000 will be carried out on Indian reserves located within designated development areas. A further 650 projects, totalling $1,200,000, have been provided for under a special Indian community employment program for bands which lack the funds to enable their participation in the winter works incentive program.
In all economic programs an effort is being made to involve Indians in planning and

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration
management, by recruiting as much as possible from the ranks of the bands concerned the help required to carry on day to day supervision, and by submitting proposals to band councils before programs are undertaken. It is hoped that through experience gained by these means, Indians will qualify for permanent positions in the activities of the economic development division and gradually take over management of their own affairs.
The need for more and better roads to facilitate access from Indian reserves to neighbouring non-Indian communities is recognized in the estimates. Such access is becoming increasingly important as the integrated school program proceeds. Similarly the adjustment of Indians to the general economy requires free movement between the reserves and centres of employment and marketing. Also recognized is the need for adequate water and sewage facilities in Indian communities. Substantial amounts will be expended for improving these services. Concurrently, emphasis will be placed on education campaigns designed to enlist the co-operation of Indian bands in improving sanitation facilities on the reserves.
In conclusion may I emphasize that the programs which I have outlined have one main purpose in mind; to assure the greatest possible measure of opportunity, equality and well-being for the Indian people. To be successful we need not only the assistance of all levels of government but also of voluntary organizations, private individuals and the general public, and above all the active support, co-operation and assistance of the Indian people themselves.


William Skoreyko: Mr. Chairman, I listened with a great deal of interest to the minister's somewhat lengthy statement because I believe, as he does, that this is a very interesting department indeed. I am glad he has enlightened us to some extent with regard to what he intends to do within the next year. I noted with interest that the minister was not at all pleased with the number of immigrants who had been admitted to Canada in the last three or four years and that the Liberal party is now embarking upon a program whereby some 100,000 or more immigrants will be asked to come to Canada in 1964. The minister did say specifically that advertising and immigration programs would be undertaken in countries such as the United Kingdom, France and the United States. He also said that the requirements for admission to Canada would be the same as those drafted by that very able minister of citizenship and immigration, Mrs. Ellen Fairclough, who unfortunately is no longer in this house.
I am wondering, of course, whether the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration intentionally overlooked the question of immigration from other countries. I say this because during the last election and shortly after numerous press reports in the country indicated that the minister was going to change the Immigration Act to favour the admission to Canada of Chinese in particular. In view of these promises I think we should have heard something today about these proposed changes. I hope that during the course of the afternoon he will be able to enlighten us in this regard.
I feel I would be remiss in my duty, Mr. Chairman, if I did not say that I sincerely believe the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration is endeavouring to do a good job in his department. I have handled a number of immigration cases from my constituency and others, by reason of my ethnic background, so I have had considerable dealings with the minister and I thank him for his co-operation. At the same time I want to deal with some aspects of the act that I think are unnecessary or at least, to be less unkind, very dangerous.
I wish to deal specifically with two cases. One is the Weldon Chan case. Newspaper articles of as late as June 3 last indicate that the minister is going to determine what is to be done with this particular family. The following is reported in the Calgary Herald of June 3 last:
Before reaching a final decision, the immigration department wili have to re-examine the Chan case thoroughly.
Every one of us in this house knows there is sufficient evidence on file and sufficient evidence available to enable the minister to determine what is to happen to this particular family in the matter of a day or two. What concerns me is that I remember well what happened in this department when the present Secretary of State, who is not in the chamber at the present time, was in charge. I tell the minister that we will be watching these developments very closely. If there is any suggestion that some of the moves the minister has made-although I agree with him at the moment-have been made for political purposes, as has been the case in the past, I will be the first to question them in this House of Commons.
The second case, which is very similar indeed to the Chan case, is that of Irene Rebrin of Vancouver. I understand this young lady was also promised that something would be done with regard to her status in Canada. She was promised that her case would be reviewed very soon. This promise was made by the minister early in May. This is now December 14, and Irene Rebrin of Vancouver still does
5884	HOUSE OF
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration not know what is her status in Canada. I bring this matter to the attention of the minister only because we were bitterly criticized for our alleged lack of concern in these cases, and it appeared to a great many people in Canada that if the Liberals were in fact elected they would look after these matters immediately. As I pointed out earlier, some of these promises were made in May of this year; it is now December and we have heard no more about them. I hope the minister in his remarks this afternoon will enlighten us with respect to these two matters.
The other matter that I touched on very briefly a moment ago was the promise of the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration to change the Immigration Act to favour Chinese immigrants. An article which appeared in the Montreal Gazette of September 24 last has this to say:
Sweeping changes to regulations governing the admission to Canada of Chinese immigrants were forecast Monday night by immigration minister Favreau.
He also told a meeting of the Canadian Chinese community that he plans to visit Hong Kong later in the year to investigate problems associated with the movement of Chinese immigrants from that city to Canada.
Mr. Favreau said he intends to "seek a fair and just solution to the vexing problem of Chinese immigration to Canada".
This statement was made in September of 1963. Has the minister now visited Hong Kong; and if he has, unknown to me, what were the results of that visit?
I now wish to deal with the act. It appears that some of the more difficult applications for admission which over the last three or four years were refused by the Conservative government have been approved in recent weeks. They have been approved under section 8(1) of the Immigration Act which, just to enlighten the house, reads as follows:
The minister may issue a written permit authorizing any person to enter Canada or, being in Canada, to remain therein.
Since amendments are contemplated to the Immigration Act, I wonder whether it would not be advisable for the minister to consider a complete review of this particular section and to refer it, indeed to refer the entire act, to a committee so that some degree of unanimity would be reached as to a change which would be acceptable to the house. I think a change is required in this act which would favour the admission into Canada of people from any country in the world.
The other section I want specifically to deal with is section 31(d) of the regulations. I spoke about this in 1959, and it is the section dealing with the admission of people from behind iron curtain countries. This section cites a long list of countries to which


it is applicable, and I am dealing in particular with Ukrainians and Poles, people from that particular part of Europe. Unfortunately under this section there is an age limitation of 21 years. I realize that we must take into account our security, our health, and I suppose many other factors; but I suggest to the minister that since he is using his discretionary powers under section 8, and in view of the many requests for admission to Canada of people over the age of 21 by childless relatives in this country, could the minister not use his powers of discretion in this regard? I say again that I do not like this power of discretion section and would like to see it eliminated; therefore I would also like to see section 31(d) amended.
I want to deal specifically with the problem under subsection (d) of section 31 of the regulations. I have in my city at least four cases of Polish, Ukrainian and Russian people who are childless and who have estates ranging from $25,000 to $150,000. Because these people are childless they made application to adopt a nephew or niece living in Poland or somewhere behind the iron curtain. We will not admit these people to Canada at the present time because they cannot qualify by reason of age. In one particular instance which occurred about three or four weeks ago a hotel owner who had made application for admission to Canada of one of his nieces died shortly after having made the application, which was refused on the ground that there was no provision under the existing regulations for the admisison of such a person. What will happen in this particular case? The hotel and estate are probably worth $150,000 at least. In this instance there are no other living relatives of this deceased man in Canada, so I suppose the money which accrues from the estate will go to Poland, will it not? In the light of what I have said I think certain changes are necessary and should be considered by the minister.
There are many other sections of the act with which I wish to deal, but we are very anxious to get on with the estimates. I understand there is a lengthy list of speakers on Indian affairs, and I do not want to detain the committee any longer than absolutely necessary. However, I do want to bring to the attention of the minister one more matter which comes under the Canadian Citizenship Act. It concerns section 18, which states in effect that a Canadian citizen who is not Canadian born may lose his Canadian citizenship if he has resided out of Canada for more than a period of ten years.
The position into which that section puts an immigrant Canadian is this. Let us suppose that a young chap emigrated to Canada

and obtained a job with an international corporation. Although this man would be a Canadian citizen in due course of time he could not take a permanent posting in a foreign country and still remain a Canadian citizen were he to remain in that country longer than ten years. I suggest most sincerely that section 18 of the citizenship act should be repealed.
May 1 conclude by saying that I hope the minister will be in a position to answer some of the questions I have posed to him this morning. I know there will be other questions coming from the floor, and he will be in a position to deal with them more fully as time goes on.


Francis Andrew Brewin: Mr. Chairman, the subject of immigration is one of very great human interest as well as economic interest. It affects the rights of a great many Canadians who have come to this country, and many more who will come from all parts of the world; people who come here to aid in the development of the Canadian economy and to enrich the culture of Canada.
In opening my remarks I should like to compliment the minister and to congratulate him on his appointment and on the way he is carrying on his duties. I have had a good deal to do over the years with the department of immigration, sometimes in what might be called an adverse, if not a hostile, fashion; but I should like to pay tribute to the sympathy and to the liberal-with a small "1"- attitude with which the minister and his staff and officials have dealt with many cases of hardship which are from time to time called to his attention.
I want to congratulate the minister on some of the excellent speeches he has made on the subject of immigration. I have particularly in mind a speech he made on September 13 of this year to the annual meeting of the real estates agents of the province of Quebec. In that speech the minister dealt most effectively with the widespread myth that immigrants put Canadians out of jobs. I think we should nail that fallacy, because it just is not so. In fact, as the minister pointed out at that time, the more than two million immigrants who have come to Canada since the end of the first world war have brought to this country an immense addition of capital and skill.
The minister gave an example in the course of his speech. He pointed out that between 1952 and 1962 more than 9,000 of them established businesses of their own and paid $116 million for those businesses, creating employment for 45,000 people. He also pointed out in his speech that more than $1,117 million had been infused into the Canadian economy between 1946 and 1962 by immigrants in addition to nearly half a million dollars worth of 28902-5-375
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration effects and property brought into this country. Immigrants have contributed, and will contribute, to the welfare of Canada as a whole.
I have complimented the minister, but in case he should think I intend to continue in this vein indefinitely let me tell him right now that there are grave deficiencies in our Immigration Act and in the regulations governing the admission of immigrants to this country, as well as in administration. I was glad to hear the minister say that this question was under active review-I think that was the phrase he used-and that changes would be made. I know the hon. gentleman has been in office for only eight months. I know he has been handicapped by the fact that during part of that period he had no deputy minister. I might, in passing, congratulate him on the acquisition of Mr. Isbister as deputy minister. But there are these difficulties.
Let me try to summarize them. In my view racial discrimination remains both in the act and in the regulations. I intend to deal with this matter later on. We have, and I say this advisedly, farcical immigration proceedings. There is a lack of elementary justice about these hearings. We refuse entry on grounds which are not disclosed to the applicant, so that people often do not know why they cannot bring their wives or children into this country. An explanation is refused them. They are told simply that the applicants do not meet the requirements. I know there is an explanation of this, and perhaps the minister will give it to us later, but I still think the position is unsatisfactory. The requirements are so vague that it is often impossible for an immigrant or his sponsor to determine what conditions he has to meet in order to enter this country.
I have summarized some of these deficiencies. Now I want to discuss them in a little more detail. In another of the excellent speeches he made, on this occasion to the Chinese community in Vancouver on September 23 of this year, the minister made a statement with which I am heartily in accord. I am sure it does in fact represent his views on this particular matter. He said:
X have been distressed by the accusations of discrimination which have reached me. If prejudice exists in immigration matters it must be eliminated. True Canadianism permits no discrimination. All citizens are equal in rights and responsibilities regardless of ethnic origin or creed. It is with this view in mind that I am most sincere in my efforts to wipe out discrimination and prejudice.
I accept this as being a sincere expression of the minister's attitude on this matter. However, I wish to point out that so far, in practice, the form of the regulations and the form of Canadian law do not bear out that excellent statement of principle. The
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Supply-Citizenship and Immigration Prime Minister of this country, commenting on legislation in the United States in answer to a question I asked him on October 18 concerning a Mr. Wayson Choy, a Canadian born citizen who was refused admission to the United States because it was said that half his ancestry was Chinese, made this statement as reported on page 3738 of Hansard, and I commend him on it; it is an admirable statement:
At the outset I should like to make it very clear that as for Canadian law and policy the present government, like its predecessor, is firmly opposed in principle and in practice to racial discrimination.
The Prime Minister went on to say, as reported on the following page:
While it may not be appropriate for the Canadian government to make official and formal representations to the United States government against the racial origins features of United States domestic immigration law, this does not mean that the Canadian government favours the inclusion of racial origin provisions in the immigration laws of the United States or any other country.
Again that is an admirable statement, but I think it is time we ourselves eliminated certain discriminatory features which are written into our laws. Before we try to cast out the mote in the eyes of our neighbours we should, if I am quoting the scripture correctly, cast out the beam which is in our own eyes. I wish to read one section of the act to see whether it does not fall directly within the condemnation of the Prime Minister with respect to United States legislation. Under section 61 the governor in council is given certain powers. I am not suggesting for one minute that the governor in council would use those powers in an arbitrary way, but the section does give him power to make regulations, among other things-
(g) prohibiting or limiting of admission of persons by reason of
(i)	nationality, citizenship, ethnic group, occupation class or geographical area of origin,
(ii)	peculiar customs, habits, modes of life or methods of holding property.. .probable inability to become readily assimilated
-and so on.
It is we in this parliament who have given power to the governor in council to restrict admission to this country by any order in council or regulation on account of the applicant's ethnic group, the geographical area from which he comes, and so on.
The minister may very well say, "We do not exercise that power; there is no discrimination left in the regulations themselves". I wish that were the case, but it is not the case. One of the former ministers of citizenship and immigration to whom reference has already been made in this debate, Hon. Mrs. Fairclough, used to say, when

certain changes were made in the regulations, that discrimination had been eliminated from the regulations. Unfortunately that is not so.
I think I should explain briefly that there are two main streams of immigration into this country. First there are those admitted under regulation 31 by reason of their education, training and skill. I acknowledge that under this section no sort of discrimination is written into the regulations. But there is another stream of immigration into this country; that is, immigration on what might be called family grounds, the right to bring people in so as to reunite families.
What do we find there? With regard to the right to bring one's relatives into this country we find a clearcut discrimination against people of Asian or African origin. The regulation provides that people who came from any country of Europe, including Turkey, or from any country of North, Central or South America or the islands adjacent thereto, or from Egypt, Israel or Lebanon can bring in a son, daughter, brother or sister, as well as the husband or wife, and the unmarried son or daughter under 21 years of age of such son, daughter, brother or sister. But this list of countries eliminates a not inconsiderable portion of the globe. It eliminates the whole of Asia with the exception of Turkey, Israel and Lebanon. It omits, as I read it, the whole of Africa with the exception of Egypt.
What is the standard with regard to these people? If they wish to bring in their relatives they are far more limited in their power to do so. That discrimination, whatever the reason, remains in the regulations as they exist and are administered at the present time. I suggest that if the excellent words that have been used by the minister himself and the Prime Minister as to the elimination of discrimination are to be carried out in practice as well as in theory, those who come from Japan, China or other parts of Asia or from Africa, from whatever country it may be, should be put in precisely the same position, with regard to their right to bring in members of their family and connections, as those who come from South America, Europe or any other part of the world. I say that until that is done there will remain in the regulations, which are part of the law of this country and for which the government is responsible, the very discrimination which the government says, and I believe sincerely, that it desires to eliminate.
In the limited time I have I am not going to attempt to go into a whole series of cases. My colleague the hon. member for Danforth called my attention to a case that he dealt with where a Chinese gentleman of some substance in the city of Toronto, Mr. Sing

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Chong, sought to bring in an orphan granddaughter, 17 years of age, who had got out of China and was in Hong Kong. Her father was dead and her mother had disappeared. He sought to bring the child into the country and he was refused. Why? Because the regulations say that people from that part of the world, no matter what their need is, no matter how appropriate it may be, cannot bring in their grandchildren; but if they came from some other part of the world they would be able to be admitted. My first suggestion then, Mr. Chairman, is that in the amendment of the regulations we should remove the last traces of discrimination that exist therein.
I also spoke of another matter which those who deal with the subject of immigration seldom appreciate. I refer to the question of whether a would-be immigrant or a sponsored immigrant is or is not entitled to have a proper hearing as to the reasons for the refusal of admission into this country. We have spoken a lot about the bill of rights, the right of a person to know what is the case made against him, the right to a fair hearing. We have talked of these things, but we do not practise them in this particular field. Let me say that any unfairness applied to people who seek to come into Canada creates a bitterness that does damage to Canada and to Canada's reputation throughout the world, and in the world of today we cannot afford not to live up to the principles which we expound so eloquently from time to time.
What is the situation in regard to this matter? I have to give a hurried summary, but the basis of the Immigration Act is that under section 5 there is a whole series of prohibitions of people who for one reason or another should not be admitted to this country. No one will complain about the fact that parliament has included these prohibitions, but it is not these prohibitions that are used as the instrument of selection with regard to who shall come into this country. It is that particular prohibition which says that those who fail to comply with regulations passed under the act shall not be admitted, and the control of entry into this country is based upon the existence of certain regulations made by order in council. Only incidentally and occasionally does the department call into effect the prohibitions that are made under the act.
In passing the Immigration Act parliament indicated that a person who sought admission to Canada was entitled to a hearing before an administrative officer with regard to whether he fell or failed to fall within these prohibited classes. But what is the actual practice in respect of this matter? I say that by 28902-5-375i
administrative machinery many of these hearings have been turned into a complete farce because of the regulation that is applied. Even though the government and the department may have some reason for which they wish to exclude a particular immigrant, they do not advance that reason. They do not say anything about it. They say "You do not comply with the regulations because you have not got a visa", or "You have not got a medical certificate" or "You have not got a letter of pre-examination". Where do they get these things? They get them from the department and the department, without giving any reason, refuses to give them these documents they are supposed to have. So these people sit down in a hearing before a special inquiry officer, a hearing directed by parliament under the act, to decide whether or not they have a piece of paper which the department has given them no opportunity to get, which does not mean anything at all, which they know they have refused and intend to continue to refuse. The result is that people about whose health there is no question at all can be and are refused admission in the daily administration of the act on the ground that they do not have a medical certificate. When they ask where they can get a medical certificate they are told "You can get it from a medical officer we appoint, but we will not give you an appointment to find out if there is anything wrong".
I had a case come to my attention just the other day of a Scotswoman who was divorced from her first husband and remarried. Her first husband came to Canada and has lived here a good many years. In the event her second husband also left her but her first husband returned to Scotland on a visit. They resumed what had previously been lawful matrimony but now presumably was a common law union or living in sin. The former wife returned to Canada and has been living with her first husband, but she is now in the process of being deported. Why? Not for any crime she is supposed to have committed, not for any immorality that is alleged against her. I never have thought it particularly immoral for a woman to go back to live with her first husband if her second husband has deserted her. No such reason has been advanced, but rather that she has not got a letter of pre-examination. Nobody ever told her she was supposed to have such a letter. She came to this country as a visitor originally and stayed with her husband. She has a job working in a retail store and her husband has a job. They are perfectly able to look after themselves.
What has happened in this case? First of all she was told she could not come into this country because she did not have a medical
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Supply-Citizenship and Immigration certificate. However, as the hearing went on she produced her passport with a medical certificate stamped on it. So that reason did not stand up. The hearing was then put off for a few days, at which time she was then told she did not have a letter of pre-examination. She was asked "Have you got a letter of pre-examination?" She said, "No, I do not know what it is; I do not know anything about it". Then they said to her "You are to be deported because you have not got this letter that you do not know anything about and that only we can give you and which we have no intention of giving you".
This is not some person from some strange country. This is a Scotswoman who has a job and who is living, as I say, in sin perhaps with her former husband. Mr. Chairman, it appears to me to be one o'clock, so perhaps I can stop here and resume later.
At one o'clock the committee took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The committee resumed at 2.30 p.m.
Francis Andrew Brewin: Mr. Chairman, before lunch I was endeavouring to point out what I believed to be some of the weaknesses in the Immigration Act, regulations and practices. I did point out that the regulations were being used in a manner that deprives an applicant of the type of fair hearing that I think parliament contemplated when it passed the Immigration Act, and provision for which was made in a number of sections. The applicant is not given the real reason for the refusal. I do not think it was contemplated that the hearing would be farcical, but rather that it would provide the real reason why the applicant would not be allowed to come into Canada or join with his relatives in Canada.
I should like to add a further point on the right of appeal from the decision of the special inquiry officers. I would suggest that this right of appeal is too restrictive at the present time. I suggest that the appeal tribunal should include at least one person of judicial, as distinct from administrative, position, and further, that it should be given power to make recommendations on compassionate grounds, rather than merely dealing with the legal correctness or otherwise of the inquiry officers' findings. I further suggest that reasons for the decision of the appeal tribunal should be published, so that those concerned with these matters would know the basis upon which the act is being administered.
Another criticism made of the regulations, Mr. Chairman, is their vagueness as to the


standards of admission. For example, regulation 31, which as I said is a key regulation, uses phrases like these: "By reason of education, training, skills or other qualifications, is likely to be able to establish himself in Canada"; "has sufficient means of support to maintain himself in Canada until he has so established himself". The sponsorship requirements contain equally vague language. I was very glad to hear the minister say that in the next few days the established criteria would be published. In my opinion, this is urgently needed because without these criteria the sponsors, the families of those who are brought in, do not know what sort of standard they are supposed to establish. They have hopes, but they have no means of determining how they fail to come up to those required standards, or what they must do to bring themselves within the standards that would enable them to bring their relatives into the country.
I should like to say something about the general economic implications of immigration. We have to recognize that, however desirable increased immigration into Canada might be on general principles, the continuance of large scale unemployment is bound to act as a brake upon immigration. When over 300,000 Canadians or 4.5 per cent of our working force are unemployed, the resistance to increased immigration is both natural, inevitable and to some extent justified. We have to plan for an expanding economy so that we can, in our own interests and in the interests of the world community, welcome a steady and increasing flow of immigrants into this country.
Some time ago, Mr. Chairman, I came across what I thought was an admirable statement of the principles upon which the responsibilities of governments in the field of immigration were based. This statement is taken from the report of a conference sponsored by the world council of churches in June of 1961, held at Leysin, Switzerland. There were represented 75 churches representing 30 countries. With regard to immigration they laid down the following principles:
(a)	The need to avoid any exclusion of migrants on the basis of race, nationality or religion;
(b)	The responsibility to help ease population pressures in situations where feasible migration can make a contribution;
I suggest the British West Indies is an example where that might be applicable so far as Canada is concerned.
(c)	The humanitarian claims of migrants in situations of special hardship;
(d)	The particular claim of the political refugee upon the help of the world community.
I stop there to say that I welcomed what the minister told us about the admission of

refugees. However, I suggest it may be helpful to put in the regulations themselves some discretion on the part of the minister, or perhaps some indication as to the basis upon which refugees might be sponsored and admitted into the country so that the public could know what could be done to deal with this problem. Then, to continue the quotation:
(e)	The vital importance of preserving the family as a unit, making every effort to avoid separating the wage earners from the rest of their families over an extended period and facilitating reunion when members have migrated:
(f)	The responsibility for friendly reception and assistance in the adjustment of the migrant;
(g)	The need to support the efforts of international organizations in the field of migration to increase their scope and effectiveness.
I understand that some years ago Canada withdrew from the United Nations organization that dealt with the problems of migration throughout the world. I suggest the government should take another look at this matter:
(h)	The need for the speedy development of unused economic resources so that each country can make a maximum contribution to the welfare not only of its own citizens, but of those of other lands.
Mr. Chairman, I would like to acknowledge that the minister has told us of an intensive study of immigration procedures, and I would express the sincere hope that we see the results of this study brought into effect before too long. I have read in the newspapers that the minister may possibly be called upon to shoulder other responsibilities. I assure him we wish him well, if that is so; but nevertheless I hope he will stay long enough in his present job to introduce amendments to the Immigration Act and make new regulations which will embody the result of the intensive study which he says is being undertaken.
In conclusion may I summarize the recommendations we would make to the minister:
1.	That the act and the regulations be amended to remove the traces of discrimination that remain, and perhaps I am being polite when I use the word "traces", because I think it is more than that.
2.	That the regulations and practices be changed so as to give would-be immigrants and sponsors the reasons for the refusal of admission.
3.	The abandonment of the practice of using procedural requirements of visas, medical certificates, letters of pre-examination as a means of denying the real hearings contemplated by the act.
4.	The improvement of appeal procedures.
5.	The clarification of the basic standards of admissibility.
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration
No. 6, and this is one I have not mentioned before, is the inculcation in all immigration officials of the expansive and welcoming philosophy which has been so well expressed by the minister himself from time to time, but which sometimes does not seem to permeate to the lower levels of his department.
If these changes are made Canadians will be able to maintain a policy of immigration which remains selective but that is fair in its application, and which will encourage the continued flow of immigrants that will be required if Canada is to attain the prosperity and greatness of which she is capable.


Alexander Bell Patterson: Mr. Chairman, I realize the committee is now working against time, and I do not propose to deal at length with all the important phases of governmental and administrative activity that fall under the jurisdiction of the minister. However I do want to make some observations with respect to two of them, and I shall be as brief as possible. No doubt some of my colleagues will also have observations to make and questions to ask pertaining to the various items as they are called.
I believe the minister has endeavoured to inject more of a humane element into the operations of the department. While we recognize the necessity for rules and regulations m this department there should be a readiness to consider people as people, and not as cases. In private conversation some of my colleagues have said that the minister has shown an extreme willingness to co-operate m endeavouring to get certain applications cleared and uncertainties removed. That is to his credit and I hope with regard to a couple of the matters I have brought to his attention he will expedite them a little better than has been the case to the present.
Rather than starting with citizenship and immigration I want to refer first to the first inhabitants of this great nation of ours. Indian affairs require the vigorous attention of the minister-


Mr. Rheaume:: On a point of order; the Eskimos were the first citizens of Canada.


Alexander Bell Patterson: We will let that go on the record unchallenged. However, we do look upon the Indian people as the original settlers m the major part of the country. There are quite a number of Indians in Fraser Valley, and I enjoy good relations with them when endeavouring to assist them in working out their problems. The aspirations of the Indian people are becoming better known to the public in general.
I expect all hon. members received copies of the December 1963 issue of the magazine
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Supply-Citizenship and Immigration "Human Relations." On page 4 there is an article written by a young lady, Kahn-Tineta Horn, from the Caughnawaga Indian reserve, Quebec, entitled "Indians seek to regain their rightful status." I should like to read the first and final paragraphs in it:
Most readers know about Indians, but a very small percentage really know any of us personally. We were here for thousands of years before the white men came. We number about the same as some other minorities. Despite this, we are regarded as second class citizens by many, and we are blocked socially, economically and educationally.
The final paragraph reads:
But we do intend to rise to our proper level in the scheme of life, socially, educationally, economically.
I believe that points out the aspirations of the Indian people, in spite of the views heard by certain people that the Indians do not look forward to filling their rightful place in society. The Indians feel they have been not so much discriminated against as neglected, and we have been indifferent to their plight. In spite of this they are endeavouring to rise above those obstacles and obtain their true position in our economy. It is our responsibility to do everything we possibly can to help them achieve it.
There have been various submissions made to this and previous governments, and I would like to refer to the resolutions presented at the 1963 convention of the North American Indian brotherhood, the first of which has to do with the court of Indian claims. We do not have to urge this any longer because, as has been pointed out by the minister, notice of legislation for it appears on the order paper today. I am sure the Indian people will be very happy and re-assured that the government has at least got to the point of placing it on the order paper.
I understand we are going to have the opportunity of studying the bill over the Christmas recess, or between sessions of parliament, and it will be discussed with the Indian people themselves with a view to ascertaining their views and recommendations in connection with it. Some time ago I received a communication in this respect which asked if it would be possible for the delegations to meet with the minister and discuss these serious problems. I am sure the minister will see to it that this opportunity is given to those who have worth-while contributions to make as far as proposals and recommendations are concerned.
Another resolution that appears here has to do with credit facilities. I should like to read section 2:
Be it therefore resolved that Indian financing be reviewed and amendments made thereto to the


aforesaid statutes and regulations so that responsible Indians will be able to improve their financial position in respect to business activity and other endeavour.
We are sometimes inclined to consider that the Indian people may not be too dependable as far as credit arrangements are concerned, but I suppose that is true of some white people as well. I feel sure that those who are in a position to make application for credit would be very careful that the credit rating obtained would be maintained and their obligations fulfilled. Other recommendations in this particular brief have to do with training in agriculture and other matters. Some of them have to do with provincial jurisdiction, and others with federal jurisdiction. I am sure the minister has a copy of this brief. We are expecting that in the working out of the program for the future, in an endeavour to re-establish, rehabilitate and provide development opportunities for the Indian people he will take all these things into consideration.
We have received a copy of the speech made by the minister in his role of superintendent general of Indian affairs to the In-dian-Eskimo association conference held in Regina on October 25, 1963. We found it very interesting and believe that if this program is carried through we will see a real improvement in the lot of the Indian people across the nation. The minister states on page 3 of this document:
Perhaps the most significant development of the post-war years has been the emergence of Indian leadership. The full significance of this new leadership is just beginning to become apparent.
Then on page 6 he continues on the same theme:
As Indian leadership develops, we can expect to see more and more Indians voice their own views not only concerning Indian affairs but about other Canadian topics as well.
Then he goes on to mention that some of their criticisms may be severe, and so on. He expresses the view that all Canadians should have a right to make known their views in regard to the problems facing us. I do think the minister is cognizant of all these various problems and issues. I am not going to take the time of the committee to stress them at any length today, but I want to just say this. Now we have progressed thus far in regard to the review of Indian problems and matters connected with the native people, the native people themselves will be expecting the minister to proceed expeditiously in the implementing of these various proposals and the carrying through of the promises he has made and the plans he has drawn up in this connection. That is all I wish to say at this time, Mr. Chairman, in regard to Indian affairs.

I want to make just a brief reference to the other branches of the department. We notice on page 13 of the annual report of the Department of Citizenship and Immigration a reference to Canadian citizenship registration. It points out that applications for citizenship received by the branch ranked third highest in its history, exceeded only by the years 1957 and 1958. I think this is encouraging if it indicates that a greater number of people who come to Canada make up their minds to take up Canadian citizenship. I think it is rather paradoxical that we have in Canada, I would say, a considerable number of people who come here, take up residence, enter into various activities, earn their living, make their money, but yet never put themselves in the position where they can fulfil their responsibilities of citizenship. They want the privileges but they hesitate to accept the responsibilities. I am not suggesting that it should be mandatory that after a certain period of time they should take out citizenship papers; but I just want to point out that it seems to me highly unfair and perhaps illogical that these people who make Canada their home, who earn their livelihood, some of them raising their families here and seeing them established, have never themselves accepted the responsibilities of Canadian citizenship. I think everything should be done to give this matter some attention and some publicity so these people will realize we have recognized the problem and feel they would be making a far greater contribution, not just to themselves but to Canada, if they would accept the responsibilities of and perform the duties that rest upon Canadian citizens.
Attention has been called to the matter of immigration and the increase that took place-the comparatively small increase-in the previous year. We welcome the statement of the minister that he is looking forward to at least 100,000 immigrants coming annually to Canada. I think this is rather- I was going to say conservative, but I somehow do not like to use that term too much; but I will have to use it anyway and say conservative with a small "c", because I believe that a nation such as ours is well able to absorb a great many more than 100,000 people per year if our society were organized properly and if our policies made it possible for them to fit into our economy. We think of the great area that comprises Canada. I should like to refer to "Guide to Canadian Citizenship" which has been put out by the citizenship branch of the Department of Citizenship and Immigration. I think it is a very fine little booklet, and if it receives wide distribution many more people would at least understand some of the basic facts related to Canada to at least a greater degree
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration than is the case at the present time. On page 36 it is pointed out that Canada is the second largest country in the world; only the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics has a greater area. Canada covers close to four million square miles, which means that it is about the same size as Europe including European Russia. At least geographically we can lay claim to being a tremendous country, a tremendous nation; but the unfortunate part about it is that it is inhabited by only 19 million people. When we consider this in relationship to the population per square mile in other countries, it looks as though we are occupying an area that is far greater than our numbers warrant.
I recognize the fact, of course, that people cannot live in all parts of Canada. I was interested to note the other day that someone was suggesting we bring some of the Tibetan people over and put them up in the Rocky mountains. There is lots of room there. I do not know how they will get along, but it would not hurt if some people were living up there, if they could survive. A great part of Canada is uninhabitable, but we can absorb and have room for a far bigger population than we have at the present time. We talk, Mr. Chairman, of the future of our nation and we picture the place we occupy in the scheme of things. We talk of Canada's influence in international affairs. We build a glowing picture of the future that is ours. But I submit that if we are to reach that objective and achieve that destiny we will have to see to it that there are a great many more people in Canada to help us build a nation of that description.
We accept the statements of the minister with regard to his plans for immigration in the future, and we wish him well. I have here an article which originally appeared in the Abbotsford, Sumas and Matsqui News, in my home town, which is reprinted in the Hope Standard of October 30. Hope is another town in my constituency. The article is headed "More Immigrants Needed". I will not take time to read it all, but I would like to read one or two paragraphs of this interesting article.
This ridiculous thought, voiced by some people, of keeping Canada for Canadians does not make sense...
We have the resources-tremendous resources- but we do not have the manpower to make use of them.
It is a fallacy to state that more immigrants will create more unemployment. They would do just the opposite, provided they arrived with some skills and some knowledge of the language.
Of all the unemployed in Canada, few are recent immigrants. In fact the immigrants who have reached these shores in the last ten years have probably created more employment for others than the total of jobless now.

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I think some of the figures, given by the minister in a speech to which reference has been made by the hon. member for Greenwood, emphasize this fact. I do not propose to take the time of the committee to put those figures on the record again, but they show the numbers of immigrants who have come to Canada, the skills and resources they have brought with them, the number of industries which have been established; and lest we think they all move into the industrial areas, the figures indicate that a great number purchase and rent farms. These people are making a real contribution to the Canadian economy. I agree that the bringing of more immigrants into Canada does not necessarily mean that there will be fewer jobs for the Canadian people; I believe there will be more.
In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, I want to suggest that if we are going to achieve the objective of increasing immigration to Canada, and if we are to build up this nation for the future, then we will have to see to it that our monetary and financial policies are adequate to meet the challenge. If we do not make these reforms then we are going to be faced with insurmountable problems in bringing more people into the country. We have to make these adjustments, and I suggest that if we are bold and venturesome enough to move out into this area into which so many are afraid to move, and that if we move forward with resolution and make these necessary monetary and financial changes, then we are going to be able to open our doors and accept an ever increasing number of immigrants from the nations of the world, thereby making a contribution not just to Canada but to the whole world and to humanity in general. It is unreasonable to assume that it is either desirable or proper for us to try and restrain population growth. We should move as quickly as possible in the opposite direction, consistent with the ability of our economy to absorb those who wish to come to this great country. With these observations I yield the floor, because I realize there are many others who want to speak about this seemingly interesting subject about which so much can be said.


Mr. Caouelte:: Mr. Chairman, a department which employs 5,147 civil servants, its estimates amounting to $67,528,820, is certainly an important department and I congratulate the minister, Mr. Favreau, for having been chosen as its incumbent. In the Department of Citizenship and Immigration, the minister and his senior officials must act at all times with great diplomacy and be vigilant regarding the admission into our country of citizens from varied countries of the world.
Mr. Chairman, into the area which I represent, Villeneuve riding, have come a great number of immigrants from Germany, Poland, Ukraine and Sweden. There are also some Danes, Italians, French, Belgians, in short a cross-section of all the nationalities in the world.
The minister and his high officials must study each of the numerous requests they receive from people who want to settle in Canada, in order to prevent, as far as possible, the coming to Canada of subversive and undesirable elements, which happened in some occasions in the past. Therefore, immigration must be selective so that our country will have good people, respectable people, people who will not destroy our customs and our good name, but will increase our country's reputation by taking part in our various economic and social activities.
Mr. Chairman, I wish to draw the minister's attention to the fact that intensive publicity is made in some European countries to encourage immigrants to settle in Canada. Canada is represented to them as a garden of Eden where they can live without assuming any responsibility but having all advantages that can be possibly imagined.
And as mentioned earlier by the hon. member for Fraser Valley (Mr. Patterson), the migrants planning to settle in Canada must be made aware of the responsibilities that they will have to assume after coming to this country. They must also learn to carry out these responsibilities. They must not think that when they are in Canada, they will have nothing else to do but live in pleasant idleness in a garden of Eden where everything will come free.
Mr. Chairman, when immigrants arrive from overseas, they usually are guaranteed a job for a year or two. As a matter of fact, they start working almost as soon as they arrive, while there are thousands of unemployed in this country. All over Canada, we hear our jobless complain about this state of affairs, not because they are against immigrants, but rather against the Department of Citizenship and Immigration, which does not take into consideration the economic conditions prevailing in this country, when the government intends to receive 100,000 immigrants per year.
Mr. Chairman, may I refer to my own area as an example. Immigrants arrive with employment contracts in their pockets, which enable them to get a job immediately in one of the mines: Noranda, Bourlamaque, Sigma or Malartic. Try to imagine the reaction of Canadians who have lived in this area for 10, 15 or 20 years and have had to queue up at the unemployment insurance office for a

year or two, because a few mines have closed down. As I said, those Canadian unemployed have nothing against the immigrants, but they have resentment against the Department of Citizenship and Immigration, which nevertheless authorizes 100,000 immigrants per year to enter this country when they cannot find jobs in the same industries.
Mr. Chairman, while 100,000 immigrants are coming in annually from different countries of the world, we have this paradoxical situation that, in the meantime, thousands of Canadians cross the border to the south to settle down in the United States. Surely there are reasons which prompt our Canadian fellow citizens to do so, especially at a time when the department is encouraging the immigration of 100,000 persons a year.
Why do Canadians emigrate to the United States? Surely there are basic economical reasons. Our people probably get better salaries in the United States, better employment opportunities, and so they leave Canada, their parish, their province and their friends to settle down in a foreign country. Mr. Chairman, I think the Department of Citizenship and Immigration should take those facts into consideration.
I completely agree with the hon. member for Fraser Valley (Mr. Patterson) when he says that it would be possible to bring in more immigrants than we are doing, but not at a time when we cannot even guarantee employment and security for our own citizens. If we had an economic system providing for the economic development of Canada, then, I think it would be easy to increase materially the number of immigrants coming to Canada, because I submit everything has yet to be done in our country, we have hardly begun developing its physical possibilities.
If our financial and monetary situation allowed us to begin those developments, security and freedom would be guaranteed to all our citizens within two years, and that, even if we were bringing in more immigrants than we are doing at the present time because then it would be sensible for them to come and live in a new country where everything remains to be done, where natural resources are practically undeveloped.
Mr. Chairman, as far as immigration is concerned, I call the minister's attention on this point: there are Canadians who are not satisfied and unfortunately, some of them blame the immigrants because they think they are taking their jobs. I do not think so. But it is obvious that we will have to try and solve that problem, about which our Canadian citizens are concerned, before going ahead with the immigration program. Our Canadian citizens should be our first concern, they are
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration the ones who should get our first consideration. As for the immigrants, let us stop our-immoderate and exaggerated publicity in Europe which leads people to believe that in Canada, they could make a livelihood without facing any responsibility. A few years ago, some Hungarians who had landed in Montreal lost no time in returning to their country because they had been misled over there before deciding to come to Canada.
Mr. Chairman, I do not intend to dwell on the subject of immigration. I might say, in conclusion, that in our area immigrants behave like gentlemen. I had the opportunity on many occasions to meet in their clubs some Italian, Ukrainian, Polish and German people, and all of them, without exception, felt very much at home in our area. They are good workers who do credit to our district. We need immigrants like those, but I must stress one point: before bringing more immigrants to Canada, let us try at least to look after our own people.
I would like to add a few words about Indians. The Indian affairs branch in Ottawa and the department of natural resources of the province of Quebec seem to disagree on the question whether the Indians living in northern Quebec come under the jurisdiction of Quebec or Ottawa.
My good friend, the hon. member for Lapointe (Mr. Gregoire) has recently drawn the attention of the house on the small islands situated to the north of the province of Quebec and asked that these islands be granted to the province; the inhabitants of those small islands, whether Indians or Eskimos, would naturally become citizens of the province of Quebec. In northern Ungava, in the James bay area, there are also some Indians. I sincerely think that the minister is looking after their case and is co-operating with them. They need assistance.
A moment ago, an hon. member said that the Indians had been the first owners of our land. He was right. The government's duty is to make it possible for the various Indian tribes to acquire as much knowledge and know-how as possible, while retaining their own traditions and customs; their civilization may not resemble ours, but they have their own culture and education. It is up to us to help them become good citizens, people with confidence in the white man instead of fear. Indians have been taught certain aspects of history, transmitted to them from generation to generation over the years, and they have learned that three or four centuries ago, the white man has not always been very kind to them. Today, let us try to give them faith in us; they are human beings; let us help them to develop within the framework of a state

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration which should be-and this is my closing remark-a shining example of respect for human rights held up for the whole world to see. That example, this parliament in Ottawa, and the Canadian nation, as a whole, are quite capable of giving.


Mr. Otto:: Mr. Chairman, I will be my usual brief self. The minister has had a very easy time of it this morning and this afternoon, and well he should because I think he is one of the most able ministers of the government. I do not very often say things like that.


Mr. Maclnnis:: You do not have much chance.


Steven Otto: I am particularly pleased that the minister is going to take a hard and careful look at changes in the immigration regulations. I think he should. The hon. member for Villeneuve has referred to the hesitancy that is prevalent to some extent in this country with regard to allowing immigrants to come to Canada when jobs are being sought by Canadians. However, those of us who have taken part in committees on this matter and who have studied some of the evidence given there, especially in connection with the population explosion in the world, realize the situation that is facing the world.
We should bear in mind that the Malthusian theory of population growth is almost correct for the last 7,000 years and that by 1980 we can expect the population of the United States and Canada to double. As Professor M. Bates has pointed out, every time one's pulse beats the population of the world is increased by one. We have to face the fact that there are a great number of people in the world and that we cannot remain an island unto ourselves. If we do not open the door it will be battered down. What we can do is to make sure that the people who do enter our country are the type we want or are people who can fit into our general scheme of things. No one is going to be able to hold back immigration, because it is just not going to be possible.
I should like to point out that there is some misunderstanding between new Canadians and those who have been here for decades or generations. In many cases I think it is a matter of communication. Communication between citizens is nothing strange to us and we know that if we cannot understand someone there is a feeling of mistrust. I have been in the construction field for several years and I am aware of the fact that the injustices meted out to new Canadians in the period between 1953 and 1956 were in many cases fairly severe. But the immigrant came to Canada without a command of the language and in some cases with very little education. He was a stranger with no money and faced

complete insecurity. When he arrived in this country he was told just about everything and, having no sense of security, no knowledge of the language and not being able to communicate, there was a natural tendency for him to settle in an area where his people or his friends lived, such area being more or less of a ghetto.
We say that once such people are here they must study and learn to speak English but the man with a family has nothing to fall back on and when he is working 14, 15 or 16 hours a day for very little pay in order to make a go of things he has neither the time nor the energy to get a command of the language. And so it goes. Thirty years later he still has no command of the language.
I should like to make this suggestion to the minister. From the time the prospective immigrant, in the country in which he is then living, makes his application for entry to Canada, to the time when a visa is granted, a period of a year to two years generally elapses. Surely it would not cost Canada very much to arrange for instruction of such people in either French or English, depending on where the applicant wants to settle. This could be done right at our legation in the country of a prospective immigrant, or by some other method arranged through the legation. These people are at home. They know they are going to come to Canada after their applications have been processed, and this is the time when they would be most receptive to learning either English or French. I suggest that the cost would be very little. When they came here they would be able to read the newspapers. They would be able to read the regulations and learn that they did not have to work for 50 cents an hour. They would know what the rates were. They would know where they could live and how to get where they wanted to go. I suggest this would bring about closer communication with all other Canadians and I think that half of the problem would be solved. With great respect I submit this suggestion to the minister.


Mr. Simpson:: Mr. Chairman, I believe that members of the committee have listened with interest to the remarks of the minister in which he outlined the functions and achievements of his department. I should like to take this opportunity to congratulate him on being selected to direct the destinies of this particular department.
My remarks today will relate specifically to the Indian affairs branch and the future of the Indian people of Canada. However, with regard to the citizenship branch I should like to make one brief comment. I am sure we are all extremely gratified to see the ever

increasing number of people who are applying for and receiving Canadian citizenship. In the northern part of our country the situation is no different. Each month we see more and more people from other lands, who have come to our newly developing areas to seek employment, make their homes and bring up their families, applying for Canadian citizenship and being granted this privilege.
The minister dwelt at some length on the achievements of the Indian affairs branch. I am sure that he, along with other members of the committee, would be among the first to admit that many of the achievements of the branch during the last few years have resulted directly from the policies of the former government. A number of firsts came into being in the last five years, not the least of which was the granting of the franchise to the Indian people of Canada. As Canadians generally know, this was done by the former government.
However, I want to bring out this point specifically because the minister, in speaking on citizenship in general in Canada, referred to the relation of citizenship to the Indian people and stated, as we all do from time to time, that he was looking forward to the day when they will become full-fledged citizens of our country. I am sure there is general agreement that the granting of the franchise to the Indians, giving them the right to vote in federal elections, was a big step toward their becoming the equals of everyone else in Canada.
A number of other things were done by the previous government, such as the setting up of the very important joint committee of the Senate and the House of Commons on Indian affairs. The deliberations of this committee took some months and extended over the better part of three years. I am sure the many reports of that committee are going to be of considerable benefit to the officials of the Indian affairs branch and to people in general who are interested in bringing about a better way of life for our Indian people.
I think it will also be agreed that the subject of our Indians is one of the most important, if not the most important, internal matter that we have before us in Canada at the present time. Granted that such things as trade and other subjects are of high priority, the problem of establishing a better way of life for the Indian people is one which we must consider of primary importance. I say this particularly in view of the expanding Indian population. I do not have the figures for the total Indian population of Canada, but I would venture a guess that it must be somewhere in the neighbourhood of 170,000 or 200,000. This is
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration just a figure I have pulled out of the air. I do know that the Indian population in the constituency which I have the honour to represent is increasing very rapidly. Figures were given to me in January, 1962 indicating that the Indian population of Churchill constituency was around 9,383. In October, 1963, the population had increased to 10,621. We have therefore, an increase of 1,238 in a little over 15 months.
There are 17 Indian reservations in the northern part of Manitoba and all 17 are in the Churchill constituency. I can assure you, therefore, that we in northern Manitoba realize the importance of this problem. We realize it is not one which is going to be easily resolved. I must admit that the educational facilities are available. The necessity for more and more educational facilities is also of primary importance. As we have all heard many times education, in itself, is not going to be the solution. However education, coupled with other measures, is a definite requirement. In that respect, it is gratifying to know that today practically all Indian children of school age in Canada have facilities of one kind or another available to them to enable them to receive an education. It is gratifying also to know that practically every Indian student who wishes to continue into the field of higher education also has facilities available to him.
As I say, the giant strides which have been taken to provide these greatly needed educational facilities are not, in themselves, going to be the solution. We hear a great deal of public criticism directed against the Indian people. We hear that they are shiftless, that they are lazy and will not try to help themselves. We hear that, when given an opportunity to work, they have a record of poor attendance on the job. This is one of the prime topics of conversation amongst white people when they get together in groups to try to see what can be done to better the situation of the Indian people. I am sure anyone who has had the opportunity of visiting these people, particularly the ones living on reservations in more isolated areas, will find all kinds of people there, just as you will find all kinds of people when you visit a white community. The vast majority of the Indian people, with whom I have come in contact in northern Manitoba, have every desire to better themselves. The main request which the chiefs and the councils make every time you meet with them is the need for employment.
As I said, we hear many people in Canada say that the Indian people are not interested in working. I can assure you that in the main, this is far from the truth. If it were possible, all we need to do is put ourselves in the
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Supply-Citizenship and Immigration position in which we have put the Indians, and then see just what sort of a transformation the white people would make if they were obliged to live under the same conditions as some of these Indian people live on these reservations. I am sure the people in the Indian affairs branch realize that many of these Indians have to go anywhere from a quarter of a mile to a greater distance than that to get water. It is true that many of the reservations, particularly in the north, are located on the shores of lakes and that most of the dwellings are close to those lakes. However, in many cases there are no dock facilities and the banks of the lakes are steep and rocky. When a woman or a small child is obliged to go for water, it is found that the most convenient place to get that water is sometimes more than a quarter of a mile away.
As I have said, I should like to see a test made to ascertain how some of the white people would fare if they lived under the same conditions as the Indians. I often wonder what their health situation would be, what the standard of cleanliness in a house would be, and other things. These are not the only things that confront people living on reservations. Many people say, why don't they raise a good deal of their own produce? I will admit that many projects have been carried out by the officials of the Indian affairs branch to try to get some of these people to have their own gardens and harvest the produce at the end of the season.
If you were to travel through northern Manitoba, and I imagine it is the same in most of the other areas, you would find a great many of these reserves are in areas where the land is far from arable. It is almost impossible, even with a tremendous amount of work, for more than one or two people to have small gardens. We hear this criticism of the Indian people from a lot of people who have not had the opportunity, or who have not taken the time to visit them. These white people take many things for granted and more or less write off the Indians because they say if the Indians will not help themselves there is no obligation on the rest of the people in Canada to do very much about them. Some people say that the Indians use some very queer methods in their attempts to live on the land.
For instance, we often hear it said by white people that the Indian will never cut enough wood to last for more than one day. This is quite true in a good many cases. However, there is a free trader on one reserve I visit who has adopted a plan to solve this problem. When I explain it to some of the people they say, well this is the most foolish thing I ever heard so far as the Indians are


concerned. I should like to give you an example of how this plan works, and to say that the Indians have their own reasons for doing these things.
This man has adopted the idea of letting these fellows go out in July and August to cut 10 or 15 cords of wood, which they haul in and pile beside his store. He then pays them $6 a cord for it and they go away quite happy. When the trapping season comes around the Indians get a little more money and they save it until January or February, when they go back to the storekeeper and buy the wood from him at $9 a cord.
Most people ask why they do not cut the wood and haul it to their own cabins and so save $3 a cord. The reason is that in summer time these people need the $6 that they get, and during the trapping season they can afford to buy the wood back at a little more than they were paid for it. This is the kind of thing which makes white people say the Indian is a foolish person; but if we were to tell the Indian people about some of the tragedies white people get themselves into by taking too much advantage of credit systems, I wonder what the Indians would think of white people.
Generally speaking the Indian affairs branch has a large number of very capable personnel, including field men, agents, assistant agents and so on. But when a visitor goes to an Indian reservation he generally hears complaints against the agent. In the main these complaints are not justified. In many cases the agent just does not have the knack of gaining the confidence of the Indian people. When this happens, and when a series of complaints come in, the department should take a good look at the official in charge, and instead of moving him to some other area should call him in for a good talk, possibly provide him with some kind of refresher course, and impress upon him the necessity of gaining the confidence of these people and co-operating with them.
In northern Manitoba the personnel of the Indian affairs branch are dedicated people doing a very good job, but we do have complaints. Some people feel the agents need more instruction and a little more experience before they are put into these positions. Many of the areas need more field men. Usually an agent has a large territory to cover, and on top of that he has numerous reports to write. Therefore he does not have the time to cover the area properly and keep in constant touch with the Indian reservations which he administers.
This year at Thompson, Manitoba, a work project was undertaken in the Nelson House area in conjunction with the community development work of the province. The Indian

affairs branch put a dedicated man in there to try and re-arrange the trap lines and assist the Indians to achieve a better way of Ashing. Certain lakes were selected. Ice houses were built, and an overseer was installed to see that the Ashing was done in a better manner for the beneAt of the Indians. Several trap lines were re-arranged, and where capable trappers were not manning them, other Indians were put in charge, and things were improving greatly.
However, the main trouble was that the money allocated for the work was insufficient. The man in charge found he had to spend most of his time at Thompson because there was not enough money to enable him to travel to the lakes where he had these projects set up; and if he travelled to the lakes, the reports he was expected to send periodically to the branch were not going in, and complaints were coming from the head office. It was a case of one man, who was supposed to be in three different places at one time, trying to carry out a very worthwhile project; and if some changes are not made this project will go overboard. Having inspected it myself I can assure the committee it could do a great deal of good for that particular community.
One of the biggest problems is the lack of employment for Indians. This is understandable because mainly they are in isolated places where the only employment is self-employment, trapping and Ashing during the respective seasons. Unless there is a little bit of brush clearing for a winter road constructed by a province, or some small work arranged by the branch on a reserve, there is no employment whatsoever for the balance of the year.
In the case of many reserves there are small lumber mills, possibly several hundred miles away, and work projects such as northern roads being built under contract. Generally, however, the people in charge of a contract or operating small saw mills are very reluctant to hire Indians. Now, the government is claiming a great deal of credit for its new program which provides Anancial assistance to employers who employ older workers. Possibly the same project could be undertaken by the Indian affairs branch in co-operation with the Department of Labour, to give some encouragement to these contractors and saw mill operators to hire Indian labour.
I realize my time is running out but, Mr. Chairman, I would like to see particular attention given to the formation of a separate department of Indian affairs. This is one of the most important problems we have, and it is becoming rapidly greater as the population increases. If we do not tackle it much more
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration quickly than we are doing, then in 20 or 25 years it will be that much harder to deal with. Therefore consideration should be given to the formation of a separate department and, if not a separate department at least a special deputy minister who would do nothing but look after the Indian affairs branch.
As I said before, I would also like to see consideration given towards providing more Aeld personnel in the outlying areas. There is a lot of work that can be done on reservations in the Aeld of local improvements. Many suggestions along this line have been made to the Indian affairs branch, and it has been suggested that in lieu of paying out welfare, these men should be given some remuneration for doing drainage work, fencing, and other jobs on the reservations, such as a general clean up each year. In that way they could be paid instead of being handed welfare.
There may be immediate criticism of this. Some may say it would be setting a precedent. I do not think it would be setting a precedent at all, because I understand that in many of our cities where the city is handling relief measures, if they get a heavy snowfall or something like that, the able-bodied men who are on relief-they have a list of such people-are immediately put to work on snow removal. If they will not do this work of snow removal, they are taken off the relief roll. I think this could be adopted very easily by the Indian affairs branch in regard to improvement work being done on the Indian reservations. The Indians themselves could do the work and be paid for it, in lieu of welfare payments.


Some hon. Members:: Carried.


Robert Simpson: I have a few more things to say, Mr. Chairman. I think some consideration should also be given to small Anancial assistance being provided to the chiefs and councillors of various bands. I do not think they should be given any great remuneration, and I realize they have band funds out of which the bands themselves can appropriate money. Chiefs and councillors attend a number of meetings each year, and many of these bands do not have a great deal of funds to their credit. Some of these chiefs and councillors have to do a considerable amount of travelling. For instance, in the Island Lake reserve in Manitoba there is one chief and his councillors, but the band is split into two separate communities which are approximately seven or eight miles apart; they have nothing but seven or eight miles of water between them. This means there is a considerable amount of going back and forth between the two different communities by the chief and councillors. Under present conditions the remuneration they receive does
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There is one final thing I should like to mention. With regard to a long term look at this picture and what can be done for these people, I would like the government to consider sponsoring a course of some kind in some of our universities, or at least in one of our universities. This should be a course for students to specialize in renewable resources, particularly the betterment of the quality of our fur-bearing animals, improvement in the methods of fishing, improvement in the methods of not only the harvesting of wild rice but in encouraging the growing of wild rice in larger areas. If some such course were available in the universities, graduates of that course could be hired by the Indian affairs branch and sent into the Indian communities. These people could give considerable assistance to the Indian people, not only in the trapping of animals but in the handling of the pelts and, of course, in better methods of fishing. I can envision, for instance, one good graduate taking eight or ten Indian families and making them selfsufficient all the year round, if they were put into good trapping and fishing areas. These people could also instruct the Indian people in the art of being capable and competent tourist guides during the fishing and hunting seasons. In that respect-


Lucien Lamoureux: Order. I regret to interrupt the hon. member, but his time has expired.


Eugène (Gene) Rhéaume: Mr. Chairman, I should like to address a few remarks to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration, particularly related to the management of Indian affairs in this country. The announcement that there will be a further slight delay in the setting up of the Indian claims commission I greet with some regret, even though I know it will certainly be done very soon. I am thinking of the convention of the national Indian council in Winnipeg, Manitoba, which the minister and myself attended, at which he assured the Indian people who were at the meeting from all across this country that this commission would be active before Christmas. I know the minister meant this. I also know that the Indian people who were at that meeting believed him. I merely want to say that in my country the person who says something and does not do it, regardless of the reason, is labelled as one who "speaks with a crooked tongue". I would like to suggest to the minister-in fact, I am going to insist that the minister and his officials notify those Indian people who came from all parts of Canada that there will be this further


delay. If he does that, he will have the reputation of a man who speaks with a straight tongue.
I believe that most Canadian citizens have a vague feeling of smugness in believing our treatment of the Canadian Indian has on the whole been quite humane. In fact, however, there have been some examples in our development which, although they are not generally known-


Guy Favreau: Mr. Chairman, I rise on a question of privilege. I do not want to interrupt the hon. gentleman, but I do not wish to have it on record that any Indian in this country may even have occasion to say that their superintendent general has spoken with a crooked tongue. I have never said-and hon. members in this house can confirm this, those who have read the reports of my speech in Winnipeg will confirm it, and my speech will confirm it-that the Indian claims commission would be put to work before the end of 1963. What I said, and what I promised, after consultation with the Prime Minister, was that legislation would be introduced before the end of this year, with the intention of providing for the establishment of an Indian claims commission. I hope my hon. friend who has just made the statement will try to recall what he heard in Winnipeg and will correct the record in consequence, because the words he has uttered are an accusation which, as far as I am concerned, I am not ready to admit or accept.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Eugène (Gene) Rhéaume: Mr. Chairman, I merely want to put on the record that the belief of the people, after hearing the minister, whom they believed, and whom I believe, was that in fact some work would be done by the commission before the end of this year. I will certainly state for the record that I withdraw any suggestion the minister may feel I made that he was attempting to deceive these people. I believe quite to the contrary. My suggestion to him was that if there was to be a further delay-and there will be-let those Indian people know of the further delay, not just the members of this house; and let them know the new date on which in fact the commission will be at work. If the minister does that he will retain the trust the Indian people have in him right now, and I can assure him from my meetings with the delegates at the convention that they do trust him. My suggestion was made in a spirit of friendliness and co-operation, and I certainly did not want to suggest that I was accusing the minister of anything.
I was stating that Canadians generally tend to feel pretty smug about how humane we

have been, but there have been some unfortunate examples of treatment toward Indians. You have only to think of the Beothuk Indians who lived in Newfoundland, true at a time when that part of the country was not in Canada, who were over a period of some 200 years purposely exterminated by the white settlers in that part of the country. Furthermore, there are many ways in which to destroy a race of people. Hunger, cold, tuberculosis and syphilis will destroy a race as surely as bullets.
When the Glassco commission examined management of Indian affairs in the Northwest Territories they recommended that services to the Indians be integrated. They further recommended that the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources in effect administer the affairs of all Indian people. Personally I disagree with this, and I wish the minister to be aware that I think there is no point in turning over the administration of the affairs of a group of people from one federal agency to another. Furthermore, with the extensive workload that the officials of northern affairs already have cut out for them in the Northwest Territories, I do not think they can handle it as well as does the Indian Affairs branch now. If the suggestion is at any time made that Indian affairs work in the Northwest Territories be handled by the territorial government of the Northwest Territories, and if within a year or two the government of the Northwest Territories is in fact elected by the people, I would be the first to support the idea that Indian affairs be handled by that agency.
In the meantime I think it is most important that the Indian affairs branch in the Northwest Territories revise their programs of assistance so as to bring them up to the level of assistance received by the Eskimo, the white and the Metis people who are in identical circumstances. At the present time we have several communities in which these three "administrative" groups live side by side. An Indian widow on relief with, let us say, four children, receives in welfare assistance substantially less than a widow with four children who is not an Indian. This creates friction and misunderstanding and confounds the officials of the department who are trying to do a good job. So that even though the day when we can integrate services to Indians in the Northwest Territories may be several years off, I beg the minister in the meantime at least to see to it that the scales of assistance and programs provided Indian people are as generous and as good as those offered to non-Indians.
I also want to bring to the minister's attention treaties Nos. 8 and 11. It is not gen-
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration erally known in Canada that the Canadian government has never lived up to the two major terms in those treaties. Under the two major provisions in these treaties we obtained from the Indian people of the day almost one million square miles of land. These two major terms have never been lived up to. It is well known among the Indian people that the Canadian government has defaulted in its responsibilities. The first treaty, No. 8, with the Indians of northern Alberta and the bands living just inside what is now the Northwest Territories, was made on June 21, 1899, and treaty No. 11 relating to the rest of the Indian peoples in the Canadian north was made on July 17, 1922. It is little wonder that the Indian people in the north do not trust the white man. In the Northwest Territories at the present time there are no Indian reservations as is the case in the south. While the bulk of the Indian people are quite happy not to be put on reserves or to have their homes built on reserves, they are unhappy because the reason for this is that the Canadian government has never lived up to its treaty commitments.
The original treaty signed by these people said that we shall provide for every five Indians one square mile of land. This has never been done. In 1957 the Indian chiefs met. They know that this land has never been given to them. They met in Fort Smith and discussed this matter, and the Indian affairs branch officials assured them that something would be done. In 1959 a royal commission was set up to examine the unfulfilled provisions of treaties Nos. 8 and 11. This royal commission made an extensive study, interviewed Indian people, and made recommendations. These recommendations were referred to the Indian affairs branch for action. In two and a half years nothing has been done with the recommendations.
The other major benefit which we promised the Indian people in these two treaties has also not been lived up to, and it is a source of concern all over Canada. When these treaties were signed the Indian people of the day expressed doubt that they would be allowed to continue to hunt and trap at will. I want to quote to the committee the words of the commissioner, Mr. Conroy, in 1922. This is what he said in the preamble to treaty No. 11:
They-
-meaning the Indians-
-were very apt in asking questions, and here, as in all the other posts where the treaty was signed, the questions asked and the difficulties encountered were much the same. The Indians seemed afraid, for one thing, that their liberty to hunt, trap and fish would be taken away or curtailed, but were assured by me that this would not be the case-
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If you go back, Mr. Chairman, to 1899, the commissioner of that day-there were three commissioners at that time-also referred to this point in these words:
Our chief difficulty was the apprehension that the hunting and fishing privileges were to be curtailed.
Prosecutions are still commenced by the crown every time Indian people hunt or trap out of season, Mr. Chairman. Yet here in the treaty it states that the Indians were afraid when they were asked to sign these treaties, and they turned over almost one million square miles of land, that they would not be allowed to hunt and trap at will. But they were assured by the commissioner that such would not be the case.
What has been the history of this matter? In a recent judgment of a court in the Northwest Territories it was ruled that the understanding of the Indians should take precedence over an earlier conviction. I believe Chief Justice McRuer of Ontario rendered a similar decision about the beginning of June. I remember that at the time this was brought to the attention of the Prime Minister. He was asked whether government officials would be instructed in future as to the findings of Chief Justice McRuer, and we were assured that they would. But, as I say, prosecutions are still being brought.
I know the Migratory Birds Convention Act, for example, is an international treaty. It was signed by the United States, Canada and Mexico, and under its terms it is an offence for an Indian to shoot a duck in the springtime or at other times of the year. However, I can also tell you something else about the Indian people, and that is when it comes to conservation they are more concerned about conserving Indians than they are about conserving little ducks. We can never expect them not to take game when it is available, when it is a matter of whether they take it, or a sport hunter in the United States or Mexico gets his bag limit a month later. That is the problem.
I am also going to suggest to the minister a solution to both these problems, the problem of land and the problem of hunting, trapping and fishing rights. It is this: Renegotiate the treaties. Go back to the Indian bands and renegotiate these treaties. They are not sacred. They cannot be sacred, because the Canadian government has never lived up to the provisions of them, anyway. Go back to the Indians and point out to them the conservation needs of the country. Indian people can understand these things, if they can trust those who are going to sign the treaty. Renegotiate the treaties on land. The royal commission made some excellent recommendations. I say to the minister that he should


make up his mind about policy, then give these recommendations to the branch for them to implement. Hunting and trapping rights have been curtailed in spite of assurances given to the Indian people. I would renegotiate these. They will be quite prepared to do so. I can guarantee that if any of the officials of the government of Canada who enjoys the trust of the Indian people sits down with them and says, "All right, we signed some treaties in 1899 and 1922, we never lived up to them and we are ashamed of ourselves for not doing so but, let us sign a new one which takes into consideration the understandable need for the conservation of game and wildlife in this country",-things which the Indians understand-he will be able to reach agreement. I guarantee the Indians will sit down in good faith, bargain with him and renegotiate the whole position, because this is a matter as it now stands that only leads to a feeling on the part of the Indian people that they cannot trust any white man or government official.
I suggest that in many instances we are asking the Indian people to carry on as though we were in the middle of the 18th century. Everything we have done to develop the country has militated against the ability of the Indian people to live on the land. We have put in schools and impressed on the Indian people the importance of sending children to school every day. We cannot then turn around and say to them: Take your wife and the pre-school children and leave the settlement. Our missionaries have introduced a new religion. They have said: Go to church regularly; get married in church before you start raising your children. This militates against a life on the land because the churches are located in settlements. We have gone to the people and said: At the first sign of a cold, bring your children into the nursing station; don't get your feet wet; avoid extremes of weather. On the other hand we say: Why aren't you out trapping in the bush, miles away from all these services which we have told you are good.
We have to start giving the Indians more than advice. There is a saying in my country which goes like this: You cannot make soup out of caribou tracks. The Indian people need more than words; they need our technology. When I think of the kind of thing that is being done in other countries to help local people harvest their resources-and the hon. member for Churchill referred to this point-I am reminded of some of the things the Russians have done, if you will pardon the expression, in the harvesting of fish. They pump fish. They have ships with pumps that work like a vacuum cleaner. They use radar to locate the fish, and then they suck

them in. When I hear that, and when I hear of an Indian agent along the Mackenzie river giving a man a three and a half inch net and telling him to go out and make a good living for himself and his family, I say it is time we got some new ideas in dealing with the Indian people and made available, not just our school facilities and health services but our 20th century technology.
Words are not enough. There are suggestions made regularly, not overtly, but none the less they are made, that the Indian people of Canada are second class citizens. Let me say this: They are second class citizens, but not because they are Indians. They are second class because anyone who is cold, hungry, unemployed and uneducated, any group of people who are weakened and despised and dispersed are second class. If you want to do something about this we shall give them an opportunity to take advantage of the technology we now have, to give them a little opportunity to be first class citizens.
In conclusion, let me say this: I should like to see the minister set for himself a plan which would exterminate this whole branch within a set time. The period I would like to suggest is a 20 year period-the great leap into oblivion-during which he should devote all the efforts of his department to making sure that the branch does not exist 20 years from now. I say 20 years, because this would give time for all the people who have careers in the branch to be retired. They would not be threatened. And all the new ones who come in could be told that there was a limited period in which they would be required to work. I am afraid, when I learn there are more Indians being born each year than either die or become enfranchised; because I see in this situation only the possibility of the Indian affairs branch continuing to grow and the Indian people always being controlled by a special department set up for them.
I know many of the minister's officials are working with the province now to see that health, education and welfare services are taken over by provincial authorities. I urge the minister to give his officials who are doing these things every encouragement, so that when he presents his estimates again-and I trust it is the same minister who is presenting them at this time, because I have confidence in him and his ideas-he may be able to include in them some kind of plan which will in the long run eliminate the need for his department altogether.


Mr. Choquette:: Mr. Chairman, after listening-
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration [Text]


Mr. Fisher:: A grand speaker, fighting for the Queen.


Auguste Choquette: You may be a future king of Canada. You never know.

Mr. Chairman, after listening to the very sensible and objective arguments in favour of Indians, one would be much more inclined to believe that the minister heads a department of Indian affairs instead of the Department of Citizenship and Immigration.
However, I wish to start by commending the minister for the great competence he has shown in the performance of his duties, and I must say that members from Quebec are well justified in expecting great things for the minister.
There is a fundamental principle I should like to stress in the course of my brief remarks. If I failed to do so, I would feel that I have not done one of my most important duties as a member of parliament. On the whole, there will be nothing new in my remarks, but I take advantage of the new climate to make those remarks.
Mr. Chairman, it is obvious that immigration has always been detrimental to the French speaking group in Canada.


David Réal Caouette: Quite true.


Auguste Choquette: Statistics are there to prove it. A moment ago I said that I would take advantage of the new climate to say what I have to say. I am glad it is so. It is the present government which has set up the royal commission of inquiry on bilingualism and biculturalism. The statements of principle on bilingualism, biculturalism and "bi-ethnism" which come from every corner are most interesting.
However, I am not satisfied with statements of principle. I should like to see the principles of biethnism, biculturalism and bilingualism translated into concrete steps. In my opinion, no department is in a better position than the Department of Citizenship and Immigration to do that, by promoting the principles of biethnism and biculturalism in the field of immigration.
Mr. Chairman, I said I would be brief and I will, but I should like to quote some figures-


Douglas Mason Fisher: Why?


Auguste Choquette: Because we are in power. I would like to quote some figures based upon the 1961 census, which will illustrate my point.
From 1951 to 1961 the total population of Canada increased by some 4,230,000 persons. The French speaking population increased
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Supply-Citizenship and Immigration by 1,220,000; the English speaking population, by 1,290,000; and other ethnical groups by 2,720,000.
It is well known, Mr. Chairman, that minority ethnical groups tend to assimilate with the majority group, with the result that the French speaking element is left far behind.
That is the reason why I insist that this government-


Douglas Mason Fisher: Why?


Auguste Choquette: -in view of the new climate which they have themselves created and of that policy which they have outlined on many occasions through their leader: "Let us be biethnical and bicultural in the field of immigration", become the promoter of a more intensive immigration of French speaking people in order to allow the two great races of our country to be truly recognized as such, not only in principle-but also numerically.
Mr. Chairman, other figures support the point I am making. Here are the immigration figures for the years 1951 to 1961: for the whole of Canada, 1,542,853; for the province of Ontario, 817,292; for the province of Quebec, only 325,329 new immigrants. So, the province of Ontario outbalances the province of Quebec by 500,000, that is half a million more citizens.
Mr. Chairman, there is some talk of redistribution. It is obvious, in the province of Quebec, that the French speaking element is definitely falling back. We have the right, a justifiable right, to ask that a new policy of immigration favourable to the French speaking element be applied.
I know that the minister can reply that the province of Quebec has a certain jurisdiction in the matter of immigration, under section 95 of the constitution.
However, it is unfortunate that the Quebec provincial government has been guilty for too long of inertia in the matter of immigration. I do not think that the federal government is justified in taking advantage of such a policy of inertia to pull back the French speaking element.
As I said a while ago, 817,000 immigrants settled in Ontario from 1951 to 1961. Besides, statistics indicate that out of 1,542,853 immigrants who settled in our country, 1,217,524 settled in the other provinces, but only 325,329 in Quebec.
Before concluding my remarks, I should like to quote an article by Mr. Jean Marc Leger, published in he Devoir of November 21, 1963. Here is what it said:
Demographers who have studied the question anticipate that unless there is an unexpected reverse in the trend oi the birth rate and the break down of immigration, the French speaking


element in Canada will represent less than 25 per cent of the population by 1970 and might go down to less than 20 per cent between 1980 and 1998.
Mr. Chairman, if we really want to practice bilingualism and biculturalism, we must stop making high-sounding statements of principle and get to work. In my opinion, there is no department better suited than the Department of Citizenship and Immigration to promote actively bilingualism, biculturalism and "biethnism" in Canada.


Charles Benjamin Howard: Mr. Chairman, it has been very interesting to listen to the hon. member for Lotbiniere, who has just taken his seat. It seems to me it is very appropriate that we are discussing today immigration and Indian affairs, because if the Indian people of this nation could have had the sort of immigration policy when Jacques Cartier came here that we have now, the hon. member for Lotbiniere would not be here to complain about this situation and our native Indian people would be a lot better off than they are at the present time.


An hon. Member:: Not because of Jacques Cartier.


Charles Benjamin Howard: Not because of Jacques Cartier. It is a well known fact that while my colleague, the hon. member for Vancouver East, was a member of the British Columbia provincial legislature and since he has been a federal member of parliament he has had a very intense interest in the activities and affairs of this department. He would have liked to be here today to participate in the debate and listen to what the minister and others had to say. Unfortunately he is a member of the defence committee steering committee, and the steering committee is spending many long hours today attempting to prepare a draft report for presentation to the full committee. He asked me to express his regrets to the minister and others at not being able to listen to the debate as it proceeds.
I want to confine my remarks entirely to the subject of Indian affairs, because it has long been one of my own interests and, because the rights of people are involved, was long one of the prime interests of the C.C.F. Now those of us in the New Democratic party are maintaining that traditional interest. It should be remembered that when the C.C.F. party was in existence it introduced into the House of Commons the very first bill to give our native Indian people the right to vote in federal elections without any strings attached to that right. This was done in 1957, and I had the privilege of introducing that bill on behalf of the C.C.F. at that time. We were

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration
happy that finally steps were taken in 1960, I believe, to extend to our native Indian people the right to vote in federal elections.
As I said last night, it is interesting to note that, following upon the Indian people gaining the right to vote, we have had a much more active interest on the part of members of parliament in Indian affairs. I believe this is a welcome situation, because parliament will then become more enlightened and we are likely to have more advanced and progressive attitudes towards Indian affairs than have been evident heretofore. I hope, certainly, that the minister does not have any knowledge of a situation in British Columbia. I certainly do not believe he is a party to it. It is unfortunate, but there is an element within the Liberal party in British Columbia that is seeking, and has attained a bit of success in this regard, to infiltrate at least one of the Indian organizations that exists in that province. They are seeking to infiltrate it, not for the purpose of promoting a solution of the problems of the Indians, but in an attempt to use the organization for partisan political purposes. I think this is regrettable. I think it is unfortunate, and I believe the Indian people will suffer if they permit this condition to continue.
I was interested in the minister's statement, not only on immigration and citizenship but on Indian affairs as well. I should like to make some brief comments on some of the things he mentioned. He said that the Indian Act is under review and when the amendments are ready it is his intention to consult with the Indian people before those amendments are passed. This is a commendable course, and one which we have advocated for many years. We say that inasmuch as the freedom and rights of the Indian people are involved, the proper course to follow is to consult with those people who are being affected before any legislation which deals with their various problems is passed.
I should like to note here that I was told on rather good authority that the minister intended to introduce a resolution preceding the establishment of the Indian claims commission on December 14. I think the precision of that prediction is remarkable because that seems to be precisely what is happening. We have a resolution on the order paper now. I would have liked to have the substance of the bill before parliament at this time. When I saw the resolution today I was hoping the Secretary of State was going to ask, as he does so often, for unanimous consent to the passage of the resolution so that the bill could be introduced today. It is unfortunate that has not taken place. In so far as I am concerned, I am quite prepared, at any time the Secretary of State asks for that
unanimous consent to the passage of the resolution, to grant it so that the bill can be introduced. I think every member in this party is of the same opinion. We would do so because we know that the bill is to be introduced but will not be proceeded with this session. We understand the government intends to bring the bill to the attention of the public so that the Indian people can study it, and at the next session we will have a better understanding of the reaction to the proposals contained in that legislation.
The minister made reference to a variety of activities of the department in the field of welfare, sewerage, water systems, education and the like. I do not believe it is necessary to comment specifically on them, except to say that I know of particular bands who have been somewhat miffed in years past by the activities of the Indian affairs branch in connection with water and sewerage systems. I certainly would not want to see repeated the experience which some bands have had. I know of one band in particular, right offhand I could not tell you the name, which has spent hundreds of dollars on a water system over a period of years in an attempt to make it efficient and effective. The reason for spending the additional amount of money is that when the water system was constructed in the first instance, the engineers or whoever was responsible for the installation, put the pipes in backwards. They put the small pipes at the source of the water supply and down near the houses they put the larger pipes, which is the reverse of what should have been done.
There is another Indian village on the coast, I do not want to mention the name of it, in which over a period of years some $30,000 has been spent in an attempt to instal a water supply system for the people. They have a beautiful looking water tank sitting up on top of a hill some distance behind the village and close to a creek upon which a dam was constructed. Perhaps more than $30,000 has been spent on this water system over a period of years, but not a single drop of water has come through the system. We do not want to see these things repeated, and I am sure the Indian people do not either. I do not want to go into specific cases, but I am sure that if the minister just asks for a review by his officers he will find that the two incidents to which I have referred were not isolated incidents. These conditions have existed for a long time in the operations of the Indian affairs branch.
The minister phrased his introductory remarks in fine language. I have read a number of press releases of speeches the minister made outside the house, and on every occasion these statements were phrased in fine words.

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration I do not wish to be unkind to him, but words are cheap, statements are easy to prepare, especially if one is learned in the language or learned in the law. Especially in view of the experience the native people have had in trying to solve their problems over the years, speeches, phrases and words must be backed up by action before the people will believe the minister. This is what we are waiting for, this is what we are looking forward to seeing.
At different times, I have had occasion to read the speeches made in this house by the minister's various predecessors. The Hon. Walter Harris, when he was minister, used to make some fine speeches. The present Secretary of State, when he held the post of minister of citizenship and immigration, spoke highly and emotionally about Indian affairs and the things that should be done for the Indian people. Incidentally, he spoke even more emotionally about those things when he sat in opposition. Nevertheless, his speeches make fine reading. Even the minister's predecessor, the Hon. Mrs. Fair-clough, spoke nicely about Indian affairs. However, over the years, the actions that have emanated from the government have not met the expectations which the Indian people had as a result of these statements and speeches.
The native Indian people want to see some action. They are trusting people. They are fine, upstanding citizens of this nation and they should be recognized. I hope that action will be forthcoming, and when it does that it will meet the expectations of the people of this nation, especially in view of the great amount of the milk of human kindness that is contained in the speeches of the various ministers, including the present one. Unfortunately, I believe the fathers of confederation made a mistake in the British North America Act in confining the jurisdiction over Indians and lands reserved for Indians to the parliament of Canada. In one sense, this casts some doubt upon the legality of the various dominion-provincial programs that are in existence, especially those co-operative programs on education that have been increasing over the years. There is some doubt expressed as to whether the parliament of Canada is able to delegate its authority in this field because of the provisions of the British North America Act, but I do not want to cast doubt upon that because I think this is the course of action we should be following-that is, getting out of the business of Indian affairs and getting it into the hands of the provincial governments where the civil and other rights of our other citizens rest, and where the civil and other rights of the Indian people should rest.
So long as we have an Indian affairs branch, and that provision in the British

North America Act, we are going to have two classes of people, one the native Indians who come under the jurisdiction of this parliament, and the other encompassing everybody else, whose jurisdiction is within the hands of the provinces. So long as we have a separate law on the statute books of Canada revolving around a group of people because of their racial background, it is going to beget discrimination in one form or another.
The mere fact that there is a separate law governing Indians makes people ask themselves whether the people covered by that law are different? If we had a separate act on the statute books covering the French people, and called the French act, people would say there must be something queer about the French. If we had a separate law relating to Scotch people, called the Scotch act, other people would say there must be something rather weird about the Scotch. I know many people have these opinions anyway, but if we had laws to such effect they would promote discrimination, in the same way as the very fact that we have an Indian Act does.
Unfortunately, no matter how much one may hope that the Indian affairs branch will have the initiative and momentum within it to be able to solve these problems, I do not think it can. To me the Indian affairs branch is an administrative organization. It is concerned with the keeping of files and records, the writing of letters and the preparation of documents. It does not concern itself with, and in fact it is impossible for it to be concerned with anything other than administration. It does not get into the field of developing policy, although there are some people who say it does; and it cannot get into the field of sociological research, and the like.
Accordingly, because it is bound by its own red tape and its own pyramidal structure, it is unable to do anything other than administer. It is a sort of conglomeration of office managers, and this does not help the problem of Indian affairs.
At one time the law used to refer to the individual in the field as the Indian agent, the implication being he was an agent of the Indian people. This was the concept of his original appointment, that he would be an agent to act on behalf of the Indian people in dealing with governments and other elements of society. Now the law has been changed. He is an Indian superintendent, and the very word superintendent carries with it the connotation of a supervisor, foreman, or boss of some sort. The minister himself has got an even higher faluting title: He is the superintendent general, a sort of super foreman over everybody else. This is precisely the attitude many superintendents have that

they are there to supervise the Indian people in their daily life, to represent the administrative machinery, and that they are not there to help the Indian people themselves.
Because of all these factors, and regardless of how much one may admire individuals in the Indian affairs branch, regardless of how much their hearts may be set on accomplishing something worth while, and no matter how fine an understanding individuals may have in the Indian affairs branch, they cannot give full effect to their feelings. The branch, by its very existence and structure, is an incompetent organization to deal fully and completely with the various problems confronting Indian people, problems that have developed over the last 100 years and which started some time before that.
To a great extent the branch is a narrow neck funnel through which ideas eventually filter to the minister. The minister's predecessors were not too interested in trying to break out of these bonds, and in trying to establish something different. I hope the minister is interested in this.
Unfortunately the Indian people look to the Indian affairs branch from the point of view as expressed to them by the political head of that department, whoever the minister may happen to be. To them the minister, being a representative of Her Majesty in the old traditional sense, because their treaties were phrased that way, they look upon him as being the sole guiding light in Indian affairs. But because we have had a succession of changes of ministers we have a confused attitude both in administration and in the approach by native Indian people to the government's tackling of Indian affairs. This is partly because the fine phrases, to which I referred earlier, have not been carried out and formulated into action, and this has largely been due to the succession of changes of ministers.
I would rather that the minister would not accept the contention of the hon. member for Churchill and others to the effect that we need a separate department of Indian affairs, or that the chief director of Indian affairs should be a deputy minister and given more authority and power within the structure of government; and I say this because our goal and objective must be repeal of the Indian Act, must be the transfer of the jurisdiction of various activities of the branch to the provincial governments, and this at a speed to meet the desires of the Indian people, and not to be foisted upon them.
We will not be able to proceed in that direction if we proceed in the direction of building an empire around the minister in the government. If we establish a separate department of Indian affairs we will bring into
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration being a group of empire builders and make it more difficult for the federal government to get out of the field of Indian affairs.
What I would like to see is that the government take steps to establish a board, commission or council-it does not matter what you call it-for the economic advancement of native peoples, a body that will be free from interference in its activities by the Indian affairs branch. It should be a body that will be free from political and ministerial influence in its day to day activities; which will have on it people who are native Indians representing the native points of view; which will have on it people schooled in the fields of sociology and anthropology, people well versed in the field of education-economists, representatives of the professions and the like -and this body should have as its guide posts the promotion of a variety of activities which the Indian affairs branch now conducts, or attempts to conduct, in the field of economic development activity.
Such a body should have a program of job opportunities and job placements within its sphere of activities. It should embrace the field of adult education, and the all important field of band council education, in an attempt to prompt band councils to become masters of their own destinies, rather than what they now are, minions of the Indian agent in whatever the agent can get away with. This body should have as its eventual goal an approach to working with the economic councils that exist in Canada, the various economic boards in the provinces and other agencies, with the hope of transferring as much of this activity as possible to the provincial governments, again at a speed which meets the desires of the Indian people.
We could then confine the activities of the Indian affairs branch to that which it knows best and does the most effectively, namely the dispensing of welfare or assistance of that sort, with the goal being to transfer these jurisdictions to the provincial governments, again at a speed which meets the desires of the native peoples themselves.
When it comes to the question of welfare I would like to make this comment. The amount payable now, in general terms, is $22 per month. This was established in 1957 or 1958, I believe, and replaced the old ration system of welfare assistance. This compares, again in pretty general terms, with welfare assistance payable in the province of British Columbia of $66 a month. So if you are an Indian, you get $22; if you are a non-Indian or an Indian living off the reserve, you are likely to get $66. We would like to see some sort of uniformity in this assistance, because
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Supply-Citizenship and Immigration it costs a native person just as much to eat and fill the bellies of his children as it costs a non-Indian.
While on this particular subject, Mr. Chairman, I should like to make reference to an agreement which was consummated the first part of this year between the federal government and the government of British Columbia. It was implemented on January 1, as a matter of fact. It is covered in what is called a statement of policy on social assistance and health services to Indians in British Columbia. So, even in this enlightened year of 1963 this is what the government of Canada and the government of British Columbia agreed to do with respect to welfare. They agreed to put into writing and permit a continuation of a system of paying welfare based on discrimination, based on racial origin, based on whether a person is an Indian or is not an Indian, and based upon whether a person lives on or off a reserve, which makes it even worse. What happens under that agreement? I do not think it is necessary to read it entirely into the record, but it says that an Indian who has lived continuously without social assistance directly from a municipal, provincial or federal government for one year off the reserve is the responsibility of the local area.
So if an Indian lives off the reserve for one year he is entitled, if he needs welfare, to receive welfare amounts from the provincial government; but if he lives on the reserve, what happens to him-he receives the $22 a month. Surely to heaven in the first part of this year, when we were talking about transfer of jurisdiction and equality, it would have been sensible for the government to have attempted to put into effect a system in the province of British Columbia which would be based upon equality of treatment for native people and do away with the old system of discrimination. As far as I am concerned, this system is also a bloody disgrace, if I can use that word, to this parliament and to the government of British Columbia; and it is a disgrace to all those people in Canada who allowed it to happen. I hope this government will take steps to have it repealed or changed, because after all, what difference is there between one person and another when it comes to his needs and requirements in order to keep body and soul together?
I think the mere word "integration" is a curse to the Indian people. "Integration" carries with it some very bad connotations, because it means and has meant in the past to many officials in government, a one way street. "Integration" means to the Indian people, "You give up your heritage, your culture, your language and your background. You give up what you know about your


people's ancestors and how they lived in this nation, and you come into our way of living and accept everything that we have". To me this is not a sensible course to follow. What other word one can find, I do not know, unless it might be acculturation. But the approach in the relationship between Indian people and those of non-Indian origin must in all instances be based on mutual respect, mutual understanding, mutual trust and confidence and upon attempting to promote equality in all fields. It must be based on the desire of the non-Indian people-and this must emanate from government somewhere-to understand and respect the background of the arts that native people have. Incidentally, the only truly North American art form that has ever been developed is that of the totemic carving of the Indians along the west coast.
One must understand and have a desire to appreciate the participation of native people in the field of politics. One has only to read or talk with people who know about the Iroquois nation to appreciate what a remarkably fine political system and structure they have. It is one which would be well for us to copy and put parts of it into effect. We must attempt to understand and appreciate more the intense hereditary feeling of cooperation that exists amongst native people, because they far excel us in the field of co-operating and working together for the mutual benefit of all. In the past our forefathers destroyed the economic base of Indian native people. They did not do a single, solitary thing to replace it with anything else or attempt to train native people to fit into any other type of economy. Unfortunately, many of the missionaries in fact-although they did not realize they were doing this- destroyed to a great extent the religious base of native Indian people and replaced it with something which at that time was alien to them.
For all these reasons, together with a variety of others, the native Indian person has come, as the hon. member from the Northwest Territories said, to distrust practically every single thing that the non-Indian person, especially government and the Indian affairs branch, does. As I said earlier in my opening remarks, it will take more than fine phrases, it will take more than fine words, it will take more than long statements by the minister to counteract this distrust. It will take a long series of actions in a trustworthy way, carried out fully, before the native people will trust us as we should desire to trust and respect them.
I wonder, Mr. Chairman, if I could close by reading the attitude developed by the New Democratic party convention with regard to Indian affairs. Incidentally, ours is the only

political party in existence which in open convention developed a concept about native Indian affairs. We say this:
The New Democratic party has as a basic philosophy the recognition of the dignity of the human being; a respect for moral and cultural values; a belief in equality without regard to race, creed, colour, or religion; a deep desire to foster mutual trust and respect among all peoples; the will to promote advancements in the spheres of education, peace, security and freedom-
I know that the native Indian of Canada has in the past had his needs and hopes disregarded and sacrificed. Based on those words, we in the New Democratic party fervently hope that this parliament, this government, will find a way to solve the problems confronting our native Indian people and so assist all of us to reach a higher plane of dignity and work in this country.


Mr. Fane:: Mr. Chairman, I am very pleased to have an opportunity to discuss matters of citizenship, immigration and Indian affairs. My first remarks must be addressed to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration, and what follows will be addressed to the superintendent general of Indian affairs. I must say that I am very thankful for the cooperation the minister and his able and cooperative young parliamentary secretary have shown in any of the dealings I have had with them. I do hope the minister realizes this is one of the most important portfolios in the government of Canada, and I hope that a man who has shown the interest he has shown in that department is not removed and somebody else put in his place, as has been mentioned in news items in various newspapers. It would be a travesty of justice, decency, and everything else were he to be removed and the person mentioned put in his place. My interest in citizenship and immigration is very great because I represent the constituency of Vegreville, in Alberta, which is populated by people from perhaps 40 different nations. This getting together of so many people from different nations has resulted in intermarriage; and we now have one culture and we are Canadians there. Yet there are still difficulties with the Department of Citizenship and Immigration.
I should just like to mention three different types of situation, cases which I have picked out from my filing cabinets, concerning communications which have been carried on with the minister. The first one was brought to my attention by a man a little younger than I who was born in the same district as I was. His people came from Poland. By the time the last war had ended he had become fairly well provided with worldly goods, and he had a niece in Poland whom he wanted
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration to bring to Canada. This girl was aged 20 years, although she is probably 22 now because this case commenced two or three years ago. This man has been refused permission to bring his niece to this country because he is not closely enough related. He has guaranteed to see that she never becomes a charge on the state. She is his niece, a daughter of his sister who was killed in the war. In fact her whole family was killed; she is the only one left. Yet this man cannot bring her to this country. These people, who are Canadians, have asked me as well as other members of parliament to help them, but we were not able to do anything for them. I think cases like this should get priority. There is not a chance in the world of this girl's becoming a charge on the state; and the people who want to bring her to the country are some of our best citizens.
I now go to the case of a Ukrainian girl born somewhere in the Ukraine. Both the minister and his parliamentary secretary know this case very well because I have a very thick file on it. This girl came to Canada in 1939 when she was between three and six years of age. In 1955 her mother, her father and her sister as well as 'she herself applied for Canadian citizenship. The mother got her citizenship but the father and the two daughters were refused. I have been working on this case for only about a year, and during that time I have discussed it with two ministers of citizenship, both of whom have been very interested; but because of certain reports gathered together, I presume by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, there is very great difficulty in this young lady's getting her Canadian citizenship.
This girl I am talking about is a bachelor of education from the University of Alberta. She has been a high school teacher for the last ten years, and her sister to whom I referred is a registered nurse, but she has now married a member of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and has received her citizenship. Why in the name of heaven can this girl, who is a couple of years older than her sister, not get her citizenship? I know there is a private file not available to people as far down the ladder as I am, but I think there must have been some error in the reports which were accumulated and gathered by the R.C.M.P. and turned over to the department of citizenship. I may say that the judge in the citizenship court in the city of Edmonton has, I am told, recommended each time that she has applied that this girl be given citizenship. We will have to smarten up and do something about cases like this. I say that we should have a judicial committee appointed which sits all the time to handle appeals from decisions like this; and this
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Supply-Citizenship and Immigration committee should be appointed forthwith. I am sorry I cannot go into these cases in too much detail because I am restricted as to time.
My third case concerns a man who came to this country from England. He did not come here direct; he came to the United States in 1950. He served with the British army, starting out as a private soldier during the last war. He was a commando, became a major and was decorated by the King with the military cross for conspicuous gallantry. This man came to Canada, as I say, through the United States in 1956, I believe it was. When he went to the United States in 1950 he had a British passport. When he came to Canada in 1956 the customs inspector at the point of entry did not stamp his passport. No record was taken of his entry. In 1958 he went back to England, and landed back in Gander, Newfoundland, coming through the Canadian customs at Gander. He was still carrying his British passport and it was marked with a stamp authorizing re-entry into Canada. This man wants his Canadian citizenship. He has been here seven years, so why in the name of heaven are so many difficulties put in his way?
These are only a few of the vast number of cases I have of this sort, and due to shortness of time I do not want to go into any of them too fully. I did remark that I thought there should be a judicial committee authorized to hear complaints against refusals to grant citizenship, and I know the minister and his assistants are doing everything they can. I am not complaining against that. I am complaining about the Canadian Citizenship Act and the fact that the Department of Citizenship and Immigration has to be so darn stuffy about allowing people to become Canadians.
Now I wish to address the next part of my few remarks to the superintendent general of Indian affairs. May I remark first to him that I am very pleased to notice on today's order paper the fact that he has at last got around to providing for the establishment an Indian claims commission, to providing for the duties of the commission, its decision and awards, and to providing for appeals from the decisions of the commission to the Indian claims appeal court, and to enact such financial provisions as may be necessary to accomplish the purposes of the act.
I assure you that that is something I have advocated for a long time. The Conservative party has advocated that, but it was not possible to bring it into being. Had we been returned as the government this would have been brought in; if not earlier than this, it would have been brought in by now, anyway. I must say that when I speak of Indian


affairs I am talking from experience, because when I was born out in the place in which I still live, our closest neighbours were Indians. Therefore I speak with experience when I speak of Indian affairs. As I have said so many times already, I regret that my time does not allow me to go into it fully but if the minister and his assistants wish to hear the whole story they can take a week off some time, and I will, too, and I will give them an earful.
The reserve I am most interested in at the moment is the Saddle Lake reserve, which is part of the Saddle Lake agency. This agency comprises some six or seven bands of Indians. The rest of the bands under the control of that agency are in the constituency of the hon. member for Athabasca. The same difficulties beset my Indians as beset his. In this Saddle Lake Indian reserve in my constituency there are between 1,200 and 1,300 Indians. I want to say that they are on the whole a very progressive people. As everybody should know, there is nothing the matter with the Indians for which the white man has not been responsible. There are a few of them of course, as in every race, who are shiftless but on the whole they are very industrious.
I may say that the Liberal opposition candidate in my constituency who ran against me was a treaty Indian on my reserve. He got his first vote, and do you know, we gave it to him, and he ran as a Liberal. We made it possible, and he became a Liberal candidate and he is a very-


An hon. Member:: Be careful.


Frank John William Fane: He is a very able man. But I am not out campaigning for him now because he is on some royal commission or something, I guess it was the Postmaster General who got his name. I am telling the committee this to show that the Indians can take their place alongside anybody, make no mistake about that. These people were the first Canadians and, really, they are the only Canadians. The rest of us are all immigrants. They have had a thin time since the white man came and took their country away from them. I know that out west the story only goes back as far as 1885 or 1889, some 80 years ago. Anyway, they were herded on to reserves. They did not get very much opportunity to progress. Only now are they beginning to come into their own and they are now, as I do not need to tell anybody here, a very vocal part of the Canadian population. They want to make up for the things they have been denied throughout all these years, and they will certainly be able to speak for themselves when they come before this Indian

claims commission or any other commission to which they may have access.
There are several things I should like to mention and I am very happy that I helped to accomplish some of them. The two things I am going to mention first happened before the present minister took over this portfolio, that is, that the superintendent of the Saddle Lake agency is a fully blooded treaty Indian, which is a step in the right direction. If the Indians can rise to positions like that, they can help look after themselves, because a great many of the agents who have already been appointed in the past were civil servants and did not know much about the Indians. I do not know how some of them got into positions like that. But the agent there is doing an outstanding job. He is, as I said, a treaty Indian himself and he understands the difficulties with which these people are faced. That is one thing that was accomplished before the last election and since the 1962 election. There has also been medical supervision. There is a nurse on duty at all times on this reserve, now. Before she was established there, a nurse would be there for perhaps two hours on two days a week. It was a poor show, believe me, because people cannot organize their sicknesses to take place during the two hours a day on the two days of the week on which the nurse would be available.
One of the big complaints the Indians have is that their treaties have not been properly respected. They were made a long time ago, mostly, and the people who signed them on behalf of the Queen did not realize that western Canada particularly was going to reach the state of population it has now. They made deals about fishing and hunting. As the hon. member from the Northwest Territories remarked, if they shoot a duck out of season the R.C.M.P. are on their tail right away, and they are hauled into court. That is no part of any treaty ever made with them. With regard to fishing the situation is just about the same.
I realize that the federal government has turned over control of hunting and fishing to the provincial governments. This is something that should not have been done but I also appreciate that it perhaps became expedient to do it. In any event, these things worry the Indians a great deal, and it does not seem right that these people should be hauled into court for shooting a duck out of season. If they happen to come across a deer and shoot it a week before the official hunting season opens they are also hauled into court. If they fish in a lake where they are not supposed to fish, that is too bad, too. In any event, I will leave the matter there.
There is another matter that must be attended to, the provision of homes for the 28902-5-376
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration aged. I know these people get the old age pension but they have to live on it and cannot provide their own homes out of it. I realize that the minister wrote me a very sympathetic letter in which he said he was looking into the matter, but I want to emphasize that when the older Indians reach the age when they are no longer able to work they certainly need some place to live, and if they do not have a family to look after them they must find some place themselves. On the whole the accommodation provided for these old people on their reserves is no good at all.
The Indians are also not very happy because when the provincial government wants to put a road through their land they jolly well go ahead and do it. In some cases the provincial government has not made it stick, because in the case of the reserve in the constituency of the hon. member for Wetaskiwin I believe the Indians forced the provincial government to go around their reserve with the road.
The Indian Act should be reviewed again. I want to impress on the minister that whenever any changes are made in the Indian Act or in legislation which concerns the Indians these people must be consulted. They are very jealous of their rights and that is one right they should have. They say, and I agree with them, that nothing should be forced on them without their agreement.
The Indians are also troubled about the school situation. So far as the schools are concerned I am troubled about different things from what they are, but I will mention only what is troubling them. They are concerned about the fact that their children have to leave the reserve to go to school. They have to get up early in the morning to catch a bus and travel 25 or 35 miles to school. The bus is assigned to the reserve by the provincial government for this purpose. Some of the Indians think that the children are not ready for this. Some of the children go to a separate school and some go to the provincial Protestant school. Others are taken to schools closer to their homes but farther away from the main one in St. Paul. There are difficulties there, because in two of the towns to which these children are taken by bus there are only Protestant schools.
There is always trouble when the children of Indians who belong to the Catholic faith are forced to go to a Protestant school. They claim their children should not have to do this. There is great trouble with the church over this matter. I will not make any personal remarks about it but will simply say I think it is high time that the government of Canada recognize its responsibility-I know the department is doing a lot-in providing a
5910	HOUSE OF
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration proper education for these people. The government should take over the whole management of education for Indian children and not leave it for somebody else.
As there are many more who wish to speak I shall end my remarks by reminding the minister that the Canadian Citizenship Act needs a lot of review and many amendments. People concerned in cases like those I have mentioned have every right to expect a further hard, close look to be taken at their cases. They should receive the benefit of any doubt that may exist in anybody's mind, especially in the minds of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, for whom I have the greatest regard for very many reasons. Also, when the department reviews the Indian Act or brings in legislation concerning the Indians, please consult the Indians about it.


Mr. Moore:: Mr. Chairman, this afternoon I should like to refer also to the original citizens of this country. Although the problems of Indians on reservations are similar throughout the whole of Canada, I should like to deal particularly with those in my area. One reserve, for example, contains some of the best farming land in the world and yet if the government is really looking for a depressed area they need look no farther. In recent years the population has been increasing rapidly. There is not enough farm land to go round and this situation will, of course, get worse.
Like people of any other racial origin, these people are not all interested in farming, nor are they all suited to it. Yet there is no other industry or technical training available. Many of the young men have great mechanical ability. They keep old wrecks of cars running week after week when I doubt that any of us could even start one of them. If training in mechanics was available to them they might make a good living in this or related fields.
Many of these families are attempting to make a living on a quarter section with little or no equipment and little chance of ever obtaining any. Certainly the land is not at fault, because many farmers in the same area have done very well on the same amount of land. I feel that the staff of the agency is very efficient. The farm supervisor is doing a fine job but the paper work alone in his office keeps him busy. It is a full time job. I have always felt that one farm would almost keep a supervisor busy, so how can he possibly give personal attention to so many units? These units need more personal attention than any other farming units.
At present much of the land has been leased to neighbouring farmers with large equipment. The leases are ordinarily for six years. If the land has not been broken, of course, the man who leases it retains the first two crops in


the first two years. After that he turns the Indian's share into the band fund, ostensibly so that the Indian may, at the end of this six-year period, draw on this money to buy machinery to farm the land he owns. What he does, of course, in the six years he is waiting is sometimes a mystery to me. There is seasonal work available, naturally, on the surrounding farms, but this is rather on a piecemeal basis.
The new housing project seems to have been quite successful on this particular reserve. I remember that many years ago the housing situation was rather bad. The big problem, of course, is the low income of the people who must pay for these houses. Provisions for education are fairly adequate. However, I should like to point out one thing in this connection. The large Indian school on this reserve, an otherwise modern school with an enrolment of some 630 pupils, has no provision for an auditorium or a gymnasium, playroom or what have you. The weather in central Alberta, as you all know, is quite extreme at times. What do you do with that many pupils at recess or lunch hour when they cannot be turned outside? I might point out that eight miles away, in the city of Wetaskiwin, there are many schools and each one has an auditorium and a gymnasium. However, these Indian children are expected to grow up to be good citizens and to compete in our society.
I should like to mention hospitalization. For many years, the Indians have had their own hospital in the town of Hobbema, which is a village on this reserve. They were very pleased with this set-up. The more serious cases were sent to the city of Wetaskiwin or the city of Edmonton for treatment. When a new hospital was built in Wetaskiwin, it was decided that the third floor would be maintained for the benefit of the Indians, whether they liked it or not and the Hobbema hospital would be closed. I can assure you they did not like it, because they told me so. The opinion of these people had not even been asked. To be fair, of course, I should say the Hobbema hospital is still being held open as a clinic. It took a little persuasion to make this possible.
The chief objection from the standpoint of the Indians in so far as the new scheme is concerned is the additional travelling distance. Do not forget that to these people travel presents a real problem. The Indians also worry about going to a city hospital when they cannot be dressed as well as the other patients. Believe me, this is something about which they are genuinely worried.
May I suggest to the minister that when he visits some of our Indian reserves he cover the entire reserve area rather than

being content to be shown some of the more prosperous areas. He should demand to see the other areas, and perhaps then he will get a better picture of conditions as they really are.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Chairman, I have read the minister's speeches and I have listened to his speeches in the house. As a result of that, I have informed a good many of my constituents in reply to correspondence relating to citizenship and immigration that the minister is apparently a human being and we can expect some results in the near future. I do hope that my optimism in that respect will be justified.
I want to say a few words in support of the excellent representations made by previous speakers from this group in respect of the need for an overhaul of the Immigration Act. I think that is very necessary if we are going to give justice to the many Canadian citizens who try, throughout the years, to bring relatives to this country. I can think of a good number of cases, and I am going to mention three cases to illustrate the necessity for amending the act, which illustrate the necessity of overcoming some of the rigidity in the act which causes some injustice to Canadian citizens.
There is an old Chinese gentleman who lives in my district who has had a market garden for some 40 years. He is respected by everybody, and he is getting on in years. He wanted to bring his son from Hong Kong to take his place and to do some carpentry work, things of that sort. I know the case is now being reconsidered. He has received a great deal of sympathy from the people in the area, and dozens and dozens of people have signed a petition urging the government to give favourable consideration to this case. They really believe this is a case which justifies favourable consideration.
Then, there is the case of Miss Irene Rebrin, which is still sort of hanging in the air. If I remember correctly the minister made a statement in respect of several cases -and this was one of them-about the middle of December, stating that a decision would soon be made. I hope this young woman will soon be relieved of her fears, and of the uncertainty that she has from day to day by a favourable decision on the part of the department. She is doing excellent work at the University of British Columbia as a lecturer in languages.
There is another case-I am only going to mention these two cases-which indicates the necessity for amending the act in various ways. There is a Miss Sarah Eichorn who came to the Kootenays some three or four years ago from the United States. She was doing excellent work in the Kootenay school 28902-5-376J
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration of art, a school operated by the Society of Friends. She had had some illness and some difficulties in the United States, but she had overcome these prior to coming to Canada and establishing herself in the Kootenays. Her work was recognized by everybody interested in that type of work. Then, she went back to the United States for a period, and when she wished to return she was told she could not return because she could not qualify under certain sections of the Immigration Act. This caused great concern to the many people who had come to know this woman during her relatively short stay in the Kootenays. I understand she is not allowed to return as a visitor to obtain her personal possessions and that sort of thing. I hope every consideration will be given to a case like this. These are three cases that illustrate the necessity for an overhaul of the act, and a removal of some of these rigidities.
I am rising to speak on one other matter particularly, because during recent years I have had some unfortunate situations brought to my attention in the constituency which I have the honour to represent, largely as a result of the fact that there are two agencies of government trying to place persons in employment. The first is the national employment service, and the second is the immigration branch agency in the district. Now, the national employment service knows the needs of employers in each district. Applications for employees are turned in to the national employment service, and the officers know where different types of men can be placed. However, they are somewhat restricted as to travel.
This is what happens: The immigration officer in the district is notified-this is what has happened in the past in any event-that there will be 30 or 40 immigrants arriving at a certain time. He is asked to find employment for them. He has the right to travel all over his district. He goes to some employers and says, can you take one of these people? Often the employer has already sent in an application to the national employment service for an employee. However, the immigration officer is on his doorstep and says, can you place one of these people? The employer says, all right, send him along. He is just about to send in an application to the national employment service for an employee, and he does not do so because the immigration officer is visiting. I want to give these officers credit. They are pretty active people who know the districts well, and they go all over them.
But this is the result. Because these two agencies seek to fill applications for employment certain difficulties occur. I can give one illustration of something which has occurred
5912	HOUSE OF COMMONS
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration on a number of occasions. In one of the small communities in my constituency a veteran born in the community, married and with four children, had been unemployed for seven or eight months. He was an electrician. He had turned in his application to the national employment service and visited its office nearly every day in an effort to get employment. Then an immigrant came in on the train, and the second day he was there the immigration officer found him employment in an identical position which this man had been seeking. He just happened to go to an employer who was short of a man that day.
One cannot blame the immigrant, but circumstances such as this can create a lot of unnecessary ill will and conditions that are most unfair to Canadian citizens, and to the immigrants directly concerned. In my opinion placement for employment should be undertaken by one government agency only, and that is the national employment service. Their officers know each district, the needs of employers, and where there is an opportunity to place a person. Incidents like the one I have mentioned have caused quite serious embarrassment to the officers in the service, and a lot of irritation at times.
What we require first of all is planned immigration. We should bring immigrants to this country only as they can be absorbed into employment, except in those relatively few cases where relatives undertake to be responsible for their maintenance for a period of time. We need a planned immigration policy, but we cannot have a planned immigration policy unless it is based on a planned economy, where we know the needs for employees, the needs of certain industries, so that we can bring the immigrants into Canada as they are required.
I mention this because it has occurred a number of times in my constituency and has been the cause of considerable unnecessary ill will. I urge the minister to have a look at this situation, where we have two agencies of government seeking to place persons in employment and working at cross purposes in many cases. I urge that this matter be investigated to see if something can be done to have placement in employment put directly in the hands, and only in the hands of the national employment service.


Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson: When the minister replies I hope he will deal with some citizens in my area who have been refused citizenship. On a number of occasions I have written to him respecting one particular case, which I also raised on the floor of the house. I presume the trouble has to do with security risks.
Subsequent to certain actions that were taken here by some hon. members of the

house, the Prime Minister announced that there would be a board of appeal of some kind, quasi judicial, or otherwise. Since then I have asked the Minister of Justice how a member should go about bringing a case to this board of appeal, and he told me all I needed to do was write to him and he would initiate the action that would give this particular person an opportunity to present himself and have the matter cleared up.
I have done that. I have written to the minister of immigration on a number of occasions, but so far I have had no response from him, the Minister of Justice, or the Prime Minister that they are in fact going to hear this case. When he replies I would like him to tell me what I should do now.


Mr.   Barnell@: I am going to confine my remarks entirely to Indian affairs and because many of the things I might have said have already been said by the hon. member for Skeena, my speech will be that much briefer. The minister in his opening statement set forth a number of objectives with which most members of the committee can agree. Generally speaking I feel we should move in the direction he outlined. However, listening to him, my reaction was that life is going on with the Indian people of our country, and the state of affairs from which the minister suggested we should be moving away has existed for a long time. For example, it existed during the hearings of the joint committee of the Senate and House of Commons on Indian affairs in 1960 and 1961.
When the report of that committee was made public the Indian people in my area thought it had practically become law. I was not a member of this house at that time, but here we are almost at the end of 1963, and once more a minister is outlining some of the objectives which were set forth in the recommendations of that committee. Therefore while I am pleased, as many hon. members have been, with the ideas expressed by the minister, nevertheless I regret, even though he has not been in office many months, that he has not taken steps to institute what I would term a crash program.
As I say, the life of the Indian people goes on and their suffering continues, with its wastage of human talents. I am pleased to note that in supplementary estimates A, there are some supplementary votes devoted to matters of immediate concern to Indian affairs, but I would suggest that these moneys are a long way from being adequate. In correspondence I have tried to point out some of the inadequacies. At this stage of the discussion and at this late hour I will not outline them here, but I would like to give one illustration.

Under the west coast agency there is quite a number of Indian villages where housing conditions are appalling-and that is a mild word to describe the conditions. Some of these votes provide assistance for the development of better housing, but the funds being made available will hardly provide for the building of one house in each of these villages. Each of the villages needs more new houses than the entire agency can provide with its current level of funds. Therefore people will have to go on living in houses through which the wind blows and into which the rain seeps; and the rain sometimes does come down rather heavily on the west coast of Vancouver island.
That is just one little instance of what I describe as the inadequacies of what the people in the field can do with the funds, the sinews of war, with which we in this parliament are providing them. I could not agree more than I do with some of the suggestions and statements that have come from hon. members in this discussion, and we would like to see the end of the whole Indian affairs branch. The sooner, the better. When the hon. member for Northwest Territories suggested a 20 year plan, I think he was outlining a very realistic and worth-while program which many of us could support. But that, I submit, does not mean we should in any way seek to avoid dealing with the immediate situation.
This is why I would urge the minister to bring in, if he can, some further supplementary estimates for this work. I say that because I believe that in so many ways now the Indian people are just on the verge of a real breakthrough into a new era, and something in the way of a crash program at this time, with the understanding that the field people in his department know what they can do with it, could go a long way toward tipping the scales in the right direction to make the Indians willing and eager to become economically self-sufficient.
The hon. member for Skeena made reference to the welfare arrangement that came into effect in British Columbia on January 1 this year. I am not going to attempt to add to what he said, except to point out that because of the remaining disparities which exist in this matter, one of the effects has been that many of the Indian people are trying to move off the reserves and are creating an aggravated situation in the urban areas. I know of examples of Indian people who are ill-prepared for urban living and who are in effect becoming social delinquents because this particular half measure has been instituted between the federal and provincial authorities.
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration
There is one other matter to which I should like to draw particular attention. The minister suggested in his opening remarks that we should be moving in the direction of providing for Indian people various public services on the basis that applies to the rest of the Canadian people, with particular reference to having the provinces assume a wider measure of responsibility in the fields of education, health and welfare, and so on. I would suggest that if we are to have federal-provincial conferences in this field, if we are to move in this direction with the provinces, perhaps one of the things we need is an interdepartmental conference among the various departments of the federal government, because I think the federal government should be providing a lead in this connection before it starts expecting the provinces to move along with them.
By way of illustration of what I mean I should like to refer to a letter which I wrote to the Minister of Public Works earlier this year. In this letter I asked him to have an investigation made into the provision of certain improvements to the harbour installations at Opitsat village on the west coast of Vancouver island. I will not go into the details of the particular proposal that I made, because they are not relevant to the point I want to make. I received a reply from the minister, dated October 22, which reads as follows:
Opitsat, B.C.
Dear Mr. Barnett,
Thank you for your letter of October 15, 1963, in which you make some suggestions for improving the float landing facilities at Opitsat, B.C.
This department does not maintain a public landing at this place. It is my understanding that Opitsat is an Indian settlement and that the landing there was provided by the Indian affairs branch of the Department of Citizenship and Immigration.
Your letter has, therefore, been referred to that department for consideration and reply.
I might add, Mr. Chairman, that I have received since then a letter from the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration saying he will have this matter looked into. But the point I am making is that if we are going to talk about provincial responsibility for Indian education, there should be federal responsibility through the Department of Public Works for federal public works in Indian settlements, the same as there is for every other settlement in this country. This is not a new matter that I am raising. In fact, I think the Secretary of State will recall that a number of years ago when he was minister of citizenship and immigration I asked him what the policy of the government was in this connection, because at that time-and
5914	HOUSE OF
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration this is apparently still the case-some installations for Indian villages were built by the public works department and others, as this correspondence reveals, were, and are, provided through funds of the Indian affairs branch. Apparently there is still no federal government policy in this connection. I would suggest this is one of the areas in which we should move to eliminate the kind of discrimination and disparity in the provision of public services to Indian people.


Mr. Orlikow:: Mr. Chairman, I have a number of things to say, but there are other members of this group who would like to speak, and obviously we cannot finish by six o'clock. I would therefore be quite happy if we could call it six o'clock.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Let us go on for a few
minutes, if the hon. member has a short speech to make. We are willing to listen to him very patiently.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Mr. Chairman, I assume the minister is going to reply at some time or other. Certainly a number of matters have been raised upon which the committee will want to hear the minister's views and the replies the minister is likely to make to the various suggestions that have been put forward. I doubt if we could have that reply, plus any other statements, in the short time that is left.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Well, Mr. Chairman, let us sit for one hour. That is long enough.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Charles Benjamin Howard: Mr. Chairman, I think there was general agreement earlier in the day that at six o'clock it would be six o'clock, unless a moment or two would suffice to finish the business. I myself would be quite agreeable to pass the estimates, but the minister has not had a chance to reply. The hon. member for Winnipeg South Centre is wont at all times to perhaps spend the afternoon napping in his office and then come down here and suggest that we should sit on.


Jay Waldo Monteith: If you would spend some time in the house, it would be a lot better.


Charles Benjamin Howard: Mr. Chairman, I rise on a question of privilege-


Some hon. Members:: Six o'clock.


Jay Waldo Monteith: Let us call it six o'clock.


Charles Benjamin Howard: Well, Mr. Chairman, they are saying it is six o'clock now. The hon. member for Perth said that if I spent some time in the house, things would be better. I would like to point out that the hon. member for


Perth is a member of the privileges and
elections committee, and the only time he attended that committee was to come in and defeat a legitimate request by the people on that committee which would have done something sensible for this country.


Jay Waldo Monteith: Mr. Chairman, on the question of privilege, I would like to state that I was present at the meetings of that committee more than the one time to which the hon. member has referred.


Mr. Peters:: If it is the wish of the committee to continue this debate, Mr. Chairman, I would suggest that tomorrow we sit for the same hours as we sat today. I think any hon. member would be quite agreeable to continuing this debate tomorow.


Some hon. Members:: Shame.


William Arnold Peters: I would suggest that those who are saying "shame" should have a little understanding of the fact that the Hansard reporters, the translators and others have had an exceptionally difficult week, one which would not be allowed anywhere else. If we had a regular day's sitting tomorrow, hon. members might be agreeable to participate.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I assume, Mr. Chairman, that if I attempted the unusual role of peacemaker I would not get very far; but if total abstinence would appeal to a few hon. gentlemen on the other side of the house, and if the minister were permitted about five minutes to make a brief reply, perhaps we could pass these estimates and we could then start something fresh at the next sitting.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


John Whitney Pickersgill: But I am not pressing that point at all. If there is any objection from any quarter the hon. member for Skeena is quite right. We got agreement to sit till six o'clock and I would not suggest anything more.


William Skoreyko: Mr. Chairman, in view of the fact that there is so much more legislation to be dealt with before prorogation surely you can get unanimous consent to sit another half hour, even if that is necessary. I say this because I know the N.D.P. would not dare obstruct, as I have before me a letter written by the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre to his constituents blaming the Conservative party for obstruction in this house. We have never been guilty of that and are prepared to sit tonight for the next half hour.


Stanley Howard Knowles: If that letter is to be referred to I trust that the hon. member will read the entire letter; otherwise it is six o'clock.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Not after six o'clock.


The Deputy Chairman:: Is it agreed that the committee continue?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


William Arnold Peters: Six o'clock.


Mr. McCulcheon:: Obstruction.
Progress reported.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I believe there would be a disposition on the part of the house to make an order now that on Monday next we sit until 10.30 instead of ten o'clock; that on Tuesday next we sit until 10.30 rather than ten o'clock; that if we complete the legislation that the government puts forward on those two days and there is any time left before 10.30 on either day the house would agree to go into committee of supply without question put; and that on Wednesday we would sit till seven o'clock. If my understanding of the will of the house is correct, I hope that that would be made an order of the house.


Gordon Minto Churchill: We agree.


Stanley Howard Knowles: This is in accordance with our understanding and we agree.


Alexander Bell Patterson: We are in agreement with that plan.


Mr. Laprise:: We also agree, Mr. Speaker. [Text]


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Mr. Speaker, I think it should be understood that when we agree to these hours they should be kept. This constant business of trying to extend the hours another half hour or an hour is unfair to members who have stayed faithfully throughout the entire period. I think that if we agree to these hours we should adhere to them.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Not necessarily.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I should like to think that there is nothing but free consent in these matters and that that question would not arise.
The Aciing Speaker (Mr. Batten): Is it
agreed that the hours of sitting next week be extended in accordance with the statement made by the Secretary of State (Mr. Pickersgill)?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Batten):: It is so
ordered.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Will the Secretary of State tell us what we are to fit into those hours?
Business of the House


John Whitney Pickersgill: I will be glad to tell the house what I should like to have fitted into those hours. I should like the house to find it possible on Monday to deal with the bill respecting the representation commissioner, I hope in all its stages; with the bill respecting the Customs Tariff; with the bill respecting salaries; with the bill respecting the national centennial; with the bill respecting C.N.R. financing; and with both the resolution and the bill respecting the world's fair.
In addition to that there are four bills which have already come from the Senate, three of them relating to the Department of Transport and one abolishing the Newfoundland Savings Bank, which has not existed for several years anyway, all of which we should like at some time during the week to get passed. They might be held over till after all the estimates have been passed to be dealt with during the interval while the other place is considering the appropriation bill. Those ten legislative items-the first six of which the government feels are essential, and the four Senate bills-we feel desirable to dispose of, and I do not think they are too controversial.
There are two other items on the order paper which might be taken if time could be found for them. One is the aeronautics bill, which is pretty well through incidentally, and the other the bill relating to provincial taxes; but the government would not hold up prorogation if neither of these measures is even touched during the week, much less completed.
On Wednesday, as I indicated last night, it is our thought that we should start with the eagerly anticipated estimates of the Postmaster General. About an hour later, when they have been completed we would take the Speaker's estimates, for which there seems to be some desire. We would also try on Wednesday to complete the Department of National Revenue. Some other departments would be available as well for the last hour or two after those have been completed on Wednesday.
As for the estimates for the other two days of the week I think it would be desirable to have some consultation when we have made more progress.


Charles Benjamin Howard: Before you leave the chair, Mr. Speaker, could we perhaps get the sense of the house now with respect to the suggestion that we dispense with the debate on the notice of motion in the name of the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration (Mr. Favreau) regarding the Indian claims commission in order that the bill may be introduced?

Business of the House


John Whitney Pickersgill: In view of the debate which has taken place on the minister's estimates, if it was the desire to sit for another few minutes so that Mr. Speaker could leave the chair to go into committee to consider that motion, and then have the bill introduced, I think it would expedite matters a great deal and would be very much appreciated.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Bring it forward in the regular way on one of the other days.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Let us do it now.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Why wait for spring?


William Arnold Peters: Agreed.


Mr. Muir (Cape Breton North and Victoria):: When the leader of the house was announcing the business for next week I did not hear him mention the estimates of the Department of Industry. I believe there was a suggestion that they might be up for consideration on Tuesday. I see the hon. member for St. Antoine-Westmount shakes his head, but I believe the Secretary of State did say something to that effect. He knows the importance of this. The people of Nova Scotia are anxiously awaiting a statement by the Minister of Industry on the heavy water situation.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I share the concern which the hon. member feels about this matter and every endeavour will be made to bring the estimates of the Department of Industry back again before the committee as soon as it

is possible for the minister to say something constructive about that matter.



INDIAN AFFAIRS


Guy Favreau: that the house go into committee to consider the following resolution:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to provide for the disposition of Indian claims and in relation thereto,-
1.	To provide for the establishment of an Indian claims commission:
2.	To provide for the duties of the commission, its decisions and awards;
3.	To provide for appeals from the decisions of the commission to the Indian claims appeal court; and
4.	To enact such financial provisions as may be necessary to accomplish the purposes of the act.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Batten in the chair.
Resolution reported and concurred in.
Mr. Favreau thereupon moved for leave to present Bill No. C-130, to provide for the disposition of Indian claims.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Now we have made this concession, may we revert to committee of supply and go on with the estimates of the department?


[Stage Direction]
It being fourteen minutes after six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put.
[Stage Direction]
Monday, December 16, 1963