1963-06-10

Mr. Stanley Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege which relates to something that is the concern of all hon. members of parliament and to which the present government should give top priority, namely its relationship with parliament.
As hon. members know, I have several times during the course of this session sought to obtain information regarding the proposed legislation dealing with contributory or portable pensions. I have been told to contain myself, to be patient, because in due course the legislation would be presented to parliament.
Now, Mr. Speaker, in this morning's Toronto Globe and Mail there is a report of a speech made at Hamilton on Saturday by the Minister of National Health and Welfare in which the hon. lady is reported as having told the southern Ontario Liberal association that pension legislation would be introduced in this parliament, and in the course of her speech, as reported in the press, she gave fairly full details of that legislation. Some of the details are most welcome, but the point is that the parliament of Canada takes precedence over any party association.
I suggest that the Prime Minister should have a heart to heart talk with his cabinet ministers and tell them the facts of parliamentary life.


Hon. Judy V. LaMarsh (Minister of National Health and Welfare):: Mr. Speaker, on the point of privilege raised by my hon. friend, may I say that while I would always welcome the opportunity for a heart to heart talk with the right hon. Prime Minister, it should not be necessary on this occasion. I share with my hon. friend the concern that announcements should first be made in parliament. However, I would like to tell him that the information given at that meeting is information which has been available to the public and is contained in Liberal party literature of 1962 and 1963, to which I refer my hon. friend.


Stanley Howard Knowles: On the point of privilege, Mr. Speaker, may I point out that what counts
so far as parliament is concerned is the legislation that is presented to us, and not what may have been in party literature.

On the orders of the day:


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of National Health and Welfare. Will notice of the government's legislation regarding contributory and portable pensions, an outline of which the hon. lady gave in a speech in Hamilton on Saturday, be placed on the order paper within the next few days?


Julia Verlyn (Judy) LaMarsh: Mr. Speaker, I can only say to the hon. gentleman that the limitation "within the next few days"-I assume he means by that one week-is so short that I cannot answer.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Then may I ask if it will be placed on the order paper before the expiration of this government's first 60 days?



LABOUR CONDITIONS


Hon. A. J. MacEachen (Minister of Labour):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a statement on the major features of the employment and manpower development program of the government. This employment and manpower development program represents a balanced attack designed to reduce unemployment, promote manpower development and increase employment security particularly during the winter months. The government is convinced that we cannot continue to tolerate the excessively high levels of unemployment of recent years. Over the past five years unemployment has averaged 6.6 per cent of the labour force. During the winter the rate of unemployment has risen on the average to 10.1 per cent, while during the summer it has fallen to an average of 4.3 per cent of the labour force.
The stimulation of employment and the reduction of unemployment are major problems which the government is determined to tackle vigorously. To cope successfully with unemployment requires a variety of well integrated measures whose major objective is to step up our rate of economic

Labour Conditions
growth. This requires co-ordinated action on a wide front. An active employment and manpower development policy is an essential element of such a program. It is now widely recognized that the growth of our economy and the stimulation of employment are greatly facilitated by the improvement of the quality and skills of youth entering the labour force and on the adaptation of workers to constantly changing job requirements. The need for adaptation and retraining of our labour force is a consequence of a much stepped up rate of technological change in recent years. Disruptions in employment due to technological changes and seasonal fluctuations are of serious consequence for individual workers, their families, the industries of which they are members and the whole economy.
While some aspects of this employment and manpower development program are naturally related to measures introduced by the former government-and in this connection I wish to acknowledge the work of my predecessor-this program represents a new and distinctive approach. One of the new elements is the fact that the various measures are being put forward as a co-ordinated and balanced program rather than as a series of disconnected or separate efforts. In this way a more positive and vigorous attack can be mounted in co-operation with other federal and provincial government agencies, employer organizations, unions and all other groups in seeking solutions to the present employment and manpower problems facing us. This manpower program is designed to deal with unemployment, training and employment security.
The measures that will be introduced will deal with either one of these objectives or with all of them combined. Some of these measures will be of a short run nature; others are designed to deal with longer run problems. I shall now set forth briefly the steps that will be taken at this time in the implementation of this new employment and manpower development program.
1. Training of the unemployed.
In order to step up the training of unemployed workers of all ages the government will introduce an amendment to the Technical and Vocational Training Assistance Act to increase the contribution to the provinces of the cost of provincial training allowances to unemployed persons from 75 per cent to 90 per cent. At the present time we have the anomaly in this country of high unemployment and shortages of skills. By making a larger contribution to the provincial costs for providing training allowances for those unemployed workers who would benefit from

training, the provinces will be able to release more funds to support additional training programs.
2.	Training of employed workers.
To stimulate training in industry, the government will introduce an amendment to the Technical and Vocational Training Assistance Act to provide for an increase in the federal contribution toward the provincial costs of training in industry from 50 per cent to 75 per cent. This will be done in the case of programs of basic training for skill development, apprenticeship and the retraining of workers who may become subject to displacement as a result of technological and industrial changes.
3.	Re-employment of older workers.
In order to assist older persons who have been unemployed for a long time, steps will be taken to encourage their re-entry into employment along with the provision of appropriate training or other programs. A further announcement on this point will be made in a few days.
4.	Capital assistance for technical training facilities.
An amendment will be introduced to provide for the continuation of the 75 per cent federal contribution under the Technical and Vocational Training Assistance Act to capital expenditures incurred by the province on training facilities beyond March 31, 1963. The contribution at this 75 per cent level will be continued up to a specified total for each province. When provinces have reached this total level, the federal contribution will continue at 50 per cent until the expiry of the agreement. This will allow provinces to share in the provision for capital facilities to an equal extent and will at the same time give them more time to put these training facilities into place.
5.	Technological change and manpower development.
To assist labour and management to meet the employment problems caused by technological and other industrial changes, a manpower consultative or development service will be set up in the Department of Labour. This service will help develop programs designed to promote greater employment security. Provision will also be made for financial assistance to employers and unions for research on manpower development in advance of technological changes. In addition, a re-employment incentive will be provided to employers and the provinces to help workers and their dependants displaced by industrial change.

6.	Promotion of winter house building.
In order to stimulate employment in the construction of houses during the winter months, a winter house building incentive will be introduced. This incentive will consist of a direct payment of $500 to the first purchaser or owner of a house substantially built during the four winter months, December through March inclusive. This incentive will assist not only the purchasers of needed houses but will increase employment substantially during the winter months. It will also increase total employment through stimulating the housing and allied industries.
The program will be tried out during the coming winter. Its effects can then be evaluated in the light of the experience gained and the need for additional winter employment.
7.	Supplementary federal government winter construction.
In order to create greater employment opportunities during the coming winter in designated areas, certain federal government construction projects for which funds are not now provided in the estimates will be brought forward.
8.	Extension of municipal winter works incentive program.
The municipal winter works incentive program can be expected to do a more effective job in creating additional winter employment as a result of the municipal development loan fund which has already been announced.
Changes designed to increase further the effectiveness of the municipal works incentive program will also be made.
The ceiling on the federal incentive payment for buildings and major renovations will be increased from $50,000 to $100,000 to assist municipalities to plan the inclusion of larger buildings in the program.
The incentive payment will be increased from 50 per cent to 60 per cent of payroll expenditures for municipalities in designated areas to encourage a higher level of winter employment in those areas.
In recent years the municipal winter works incentive program has run over a period of seven and one half months. Even the Canadian winter does not last that long. This program was originally designed to concentrate additional employment in the winter months. The program this year will operate from November 1 to April 30 inclusive, in the full expectation that just as much or more work can be done to better effect in this shorter period of time.
Labour Conditions
To further this objective, the program is being announced at this early date so that municipalities will be enabled to advance their planning for next winter as much as possible.
9.	Strengthening personnel resources.
The government will take steps to strengthen the personnel resources of the agencies responsible for the administration of these manpower programs. These include various branches of the Department of Labour and the national employment service. The role of the national employment service is of fundamental importance in the effective operation of the labour market and in administering many of the manpower programs of the Department of Labour in an integrated way. In addition, we know far too little about the real nature of many of the complex manpower problems facing us in these areas. We intend to investigate these problems in depth.
As hon. members will appreciate, this is a many sided program. It will stimulate employment particularly during the winter months when it is most needed. It will expand substantially the training of the unemployed. It will help raise the general educational level of employed workers, increase apprenticeship programs, promote the re-employment of older workers and provide training for those subject to displacement. It will encourage planning by labour and management in advance of technological change, and programs for greater employment security. It will enable the provinces to continue the capital program for training facilities by extending the 75 per cent federal contribution. It will provide for much needed staff resources to meet these objectives. Finally, it will provide for the development of a well co-ordinated, balanced, and active employment and manpower development program.


Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, the problem of unemployment is one that has had the attention of governments in the western world particularly during the last few years when, in consequence of automation, and so far as our own country is concerned a continuation of inclement winter conditions, unemployment has been a continuing source of difficulty and concern to successive governments.
In so far as the program which has been placed before the house by the Minister of Labour is concerned, I thank him for his reference to his predecessor, the former minister of labour. In the course of his concluding remarks he said that this would be the co-ordination, as it were, of various plans to meet this very important problem. I would

Labour Conditions
point out that a major portion of the co-ordination, outside of the housing plan, consists of an alteration of the percentage to be paid to the provinces, the increase in one case being, if I took it down correctly, from 75 per cent to 90 per cent in training unemployed, and in another from 50 per cent to 75 per cent in training employed workers. I would be interested to know, in view of the strong statements made by the Prime Minister during the election campaign, whether this is one sharing program which is going to be acceptable to each and all of the provinces, for after all it was said over and over again that the day of sharing programs was over. Instead of it being over, it is being increased in this case.
As far as training of men and women is concerned to meet the technological changes of today, we made very great advances in this regard. We made available some $300 million for technical education. I am glad that this is going to be continued. There is no real expansion in this regard. From what I have been able to ascertain from endeavouring to follow the hon. gentleman, as far as re-employment of old workers is concerned, and the manpower and consultant service, these plans were ours and were available to parliament from September last until February 5, but we were unable to get them before the house at the time owing to the attitude taken by the then opposition, the government of today. However, we welcome the conversion on the part of the government to the plan which we had available and ready for parliament.
In so far as the program to encourage house building in the winter is concerned, on its face it looks like quite an unusual plan in that it makes it possible for the first purchaser to receive a credit of $500 on the house. That plan, of course, is subject to one general criticism, namely that it is discriminatory. It only applies to those who will be purchasing houses to be proceeded with in the winter of 1963-64.
Generally I think the ideas as to housing will be acceptable. I am surprised that there has been a change on the part of the government from the attitude taken by the government which I had the honour to lead, in that the present government has stated in advance that there will be no extension beyond April 30 for the winter works program. I would say to the minister that while theoretically this sounds well, I think he will find in the light of experience that municipalities by about the first of March next will be placing before the government projects that they have in mind and will be asking for an extension, and I am sure that at that time the pressure on the government to extend the period of time will bring about a condition similar to that which prevailed under the former government.
[Mr. Diefenbaker.l
Anything that can be done by way of correlation or novel legislation to meet the problem of unemployment will always receive the support of this party and the official opposition. I would point out that many of these plans have been placed before the people of the United States. I recall well the campaign of 1960 in the United States when there was a promise on the part of the Democratic party as to what they were going to do to meet the problem of unemployment. One just has to look at the record week by week to know that unemployment is not being decreased in the United States.
As far as our country is concerned, the best advice we had was that as a result of the policies we had placed on the statute books and the practices applied by the Department of Labour there would be a very substantial reduction in the rate of unemployment by this summer even compared with last summer, and that in the expanding economy which we left to the present government this problem was rapidly approaching the point where a solution to the difficulty would certainly be achieved. Anything that will bring about the acceleration of that hope will certainly receive our support.
It is impossible to refer one by one to the matters raised by the Minister of Labour, but I say this. Three of them are rehashes, two of them were available, and the other two are of doubtful application.
(Translation):


Mr. Marcel Lessard (Lake St. John):: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Labour's statement is most welcome in this part of the house. I found particularly interesting his first words to the effect that his government feels that unemployment should not be allowed to last any longer. I am very happy to hear the minister say this and I trust that he will get the full co-operation of his colleagues of the cabinet to help him find an answer to the unemployment problems.
He needs their co-operation because with the help of his own department only, he does not have every means at his disposal to solve this problem.
Mr. Speaker, the minister has informed the house of several steps he intends to take in order to stimulate the Canadian economy, increase man-power flexibility, promote improvements, and cope with automation in its various forms. I am convinced that all those things are good in themselves, but that they will only be efficient if we increase the number of available jobs in this country. And the only way to do this is to have more industries in Canada.

Mr. Speaker, the minister intends to promote the winter works program by offering a $500 premium to encourage the building of homes in winter. 1 shall not undertake a criticism of all those points at this stage, but I must say that it is with some reservations that we support those statements. I can assure him however that our group will take part in the debate when those formulas are set forth in the budget speech. We shall then have the opportunity of reviewing with him all the formulas he introduced today.
On the other hand, Mr. Speaker, I should like to call the government's attention to the minister's first words: "Unemployment can no longer be tolerated in Canada". I feel that since the beginning of the session, we have been losing valuable time discussing an issue which, everybody will agree, is important but which does not contribute anything to alleviate unemployment in Canada, that is national defence.
In my opinion, unemployment continues to be the main problem in this country. The situation is urgent throughout Canada. It is our duty to ensure the co-operation of all men of goodwill, of experts and technicians to fight this evil.
I come from Quebec, a province which is most particularly affected by the unemployment which prevails in Canada. Nearly 10 per cent of our labour force are out of work and all the people of my province have their eyes turned towards Ottawa to see what the federal government intends to do, through the provincial governments and especially through the Quebec government, to reduce the number of unemployed.
Reference was made earlier to a resolution aimed at setting up a municipal development fund. In my opinion, that is one of the first measures that the house should have considered, for I am convinced that it is the one that will be the most effective in the shortest time to decrease and fight unemployment in this country.
Now, Mr. Speaker, I say in the name of our group, that we shall co-operate fully with the Minister of Labour in the study of this resolution. I thank him for the statement he made today.
(Text):


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, we welcome the statement that has been made by the Minister of Labour. I think perhaps what we like best about it is the recognition implicit in the
Labour Conditions
statement that there is no one simple answer to the problem of unemployment, but rather that it has to be attacked on every possible front. I am glad to note the number of steps the Minister of Labour has suggested, some of which are a continuation of policies proposed by previous governments and some of which are new. We earnestly hope that these and other steps will be taken and will be pursued so that we will really get rid of unemployment.
I am afraid that we in this corner of the house do not agree with the comment made by the Leader of the Opposition to the effect that under his government the solution of the unemployment problem had just about been achieved. As long as we have unemployment of the order of 5 per cent or 6 per cent or more of the working population there is no point in talking about the solution of the unemployment problem being just around the corner. We do not claim that we in this corner are alone in this, but we feel that we must keep working on this problem of unemployment until we lick it completely. They have come close to licking it in other countries, in countries with climates similar to ours, and we see no reason why we should not pursue this matter until we have unemployment down to something less than 1 per cent of our working population.
We agree with the statement made by the hon. member for Lake St. John as to the importance of the municipal development and loan fund which the present government has proposed. We were glad the Minister of Labour mentioned it in his remarks. We would emphasize the point that if the winter works program is to be as effective as it could be it will have to be dovetailed into the activities under the municipal development and loan fund. We all recognize that this is one of the places where we can most quickly get the economy rolling-it seems to me I have heard that phrase somewhere-in terms of providing employment for those who need it.
We welcome the various references to housing. It is still our view that both in the immediate future and over the long run, one way in which to do a real job in terms of reducing unemployment is to make a massive attack on the housing problem in this country. Far too many Canadian people still live in substandard dwellings in communities which lack the kind of conveniences and the kind of organization that we could have in this day and age.
While we welcome the suggestions that have been made in respect of new housing, we would like to put in a word for the rehabilitation of older dwellings. There are many dwellings in this country that should be torn down. However, there are many older

Labour Conditions
ones that could be rehabilitated, and work on them in the winter months would not only be beneficial in what it would do to those dwellings but would provide employment. We hope that, amongst other things, the Minister of Labour and the government will consider this aspect.
As I say, Mr. Speaker, what pleased us most in the minister's statement was the recognition that unemployment must be attacked from every possible angle; training, tackling the problems of automation, over-all planning, providing the necessary means for moving people about from job to job, incentives, taxation and fiscal policy, aid to municipalities, and consideration of the weather we have in this country. I was glad to learn, coming as I do from Winnipeg, that we have only seven and a half months of winter in this country. Maybe it is just that it does not always seem that way in Winnipeg.
I was glad to hear from the minister recognition that this was a problem of many parts. We hope that every effort will be made by the government, and if it does it will have the support of the whole house as it seeks really to lick the problem of unemployment in Canada.

On the orders of the day:


Hon. Marcel Lambert (Edmonton West):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a question of the Minister of Labour. With reference to the statement which he made earlier this day, does the government envisage that with respect to the incentive grants for winter house construction it will be necessary to impose price controls or some other restrictions to prevent unconscionable advances in prices so as to gain advantage of the grants?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: Mr. Speaker, I think the answer to the question is no.


Mr. A. D. Hales (Wellington South):: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Labour following the announcement he made concerning the building of houses in winter time. First, who determines whether these houses are built and completed within the specified time? Second, if the builder completed a house say four days after the designated period, would the purchaser qualify for the $500 subsidy? And third, would a person who builds his own home qualify for this rebate?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: Mr. Speaker, the arrangements for the implementation of this particular program will be subject to regulation,
[Mr. Knowles. J
and I think at a later time it will be possible to give complete answers to the question asked by my hon. friend. I can tell him, in response to the last part of his question, that the answer is yes, but I think it would be better for the remaining parts of his question to await further announcements when the regulations are prepared.


Alfred Dryden Hales: A supplementary question-


Mr. Speaker:: I am sorry to interrupt. I hope hon. members will not think me bad tempered this afternoon, but the question was in the nature of asking for an interpretation of regulations and I hardly think the matter is that pressing. The hon. member should put it on the order paper.

On the orders of the day:


Hon. George C. Nowlan (Digby-Annapolis-Kings):: Mr. Speaker, might I ask the Minister of Finance a question, notice of which I obviously have not been able to send him. Perhaps he could advise the house whether the $500 grant for housing construction, to which the Minister of Labour referred a moment ago, will be taxable or non-taxable?


Hon. Walter L. Gordon (Minister of Finance):: No, Mr. Speaker, I cannot advise the house of the answer to that question at this time.



FISHERIES


Hon. H. J. Robichaud (Minister of Fisheries):: Mr. Speaker, on Friday last I advised the house that I would make a statement today on the series of meetings which are now taking place in Washington, and which opened last Thursday, to review the provisions of the north Pacific treaty.
In 1952 Canada, Japan and the United States entered into a treaty, the international north Pacific fisheries convention, the principal basis of which was the abstention principle. Under this principle it was agreed that any stocks of fish which are fully utilized by any one or more of the participating countries, and which are under regulation based on scientific investigation, will continue to be exploited only by the countries which have developed those fisheries to their full exploitation. Also any country which had not, for 25 years preceding the entry into force of the convention, exploited such stocks of fish agreed voluntarily to abstain from fishing such stocks.
Under this principle Japan, which had never participated in the exploitation of salmon,

halibut and herring fisheries of North American origin, agreed to continue abstaining from fishing these stocks. Canada, which had never exploited stocks of salmon in the Bering sea, also agreed to abstain from fishing those stocks.
The treaty was made for a period of 10 years following its ratification on June 12, 1953, after which time any of the parties to the convention could terminate the convention by giving 12 months notice. Before the expiration of the 10 year period this June Japan had requested that the three countries enter into discussions to review the convention and to consider the possibility of revisions.
The three parties met on Thursday of last week at the opening session in Washington, and stated their positions. From the statements made it is evident that the three parties are agreed on the fact that a treaty is needed for the protection of the fishing resources of the north Pacific. The differences between the parties are as to the kind of treaty that would give this protection. The Japanese position was stated by the Japanese chairman of the delegation, Mr. Masayoshi Ito, as follows:
The implementation of the convention for 10 years has revealed that the formula of abstention contains in itself a number of difficult problems such as the difficulty of proving the existence of the conditions for abstention.
Therefore, the government of Japan hopes to conclude, in place of the present convention which will shortly have run its initial ten year period, a new convention the objective of which is to ensure the rational conservation and exploitation of the fishery resources of the north Pacific ocean by co-operation between our three countries, Canada, the United States and Japan.
Japan is heavily dependant on fishery resources so that the conservation of resources is a matter of greatest concern to us. The government of Japan, while urging the discard of the formula of abstention, has no wish adversely to affect fishery resources and is prepared to give due consideration to the past efforts of the countries concerned for the conservation of those resources.
Secretary of the Interior Stewart L. Udall expressed the views of the United States government and its delegation as follows:
It is our view in the United States that the convention has served well as a mechanism for the solution of common fishery problems and in so doing has contributed substantially to a pattern of harmonious relations among the three governments.
Further on he said:
In short, we are convinced of the fundamental value of the principle of abstention for the solution of what are today unique fishery problems, but problems which may in the future be all too common.
We are strengthened in our conviction by the manner in which this convention has served the three governments during the past 10 years. None of the governments has found in the functioning of the convention all that it might have hoped for. Japanese fishermen find defects in the convention, and so do Canadian and American fishermen. But, within its framework it has been possible for the three national fishing industries to prosper.
North Pacific Treaty
I shall quote two paragraphs of what I said, speaking for the Canadian delegation:
Speaking for my country, I may say that the government is deeply conscious of the arduous work put in by the commission to demonstrate that the principles on which the international north Pacific fisheries convention is founded are sound. The abstention principle, on which the convention is based, is meant to cover a unique situation to protect certain fisheries which without it could not long survive.
Further on I said:
One of the emerging problems in conservation of sea fisheries, which requires an urgent solution, is the intermingling of various stocks of fish. One state may be interested in exploiting a certain stock of fish which may be intermingled with a stock or stocks of fish which another state may be desirous of exploiting in the same region. This probably is the knottiest problem to be resolved in the fisheries of the north Pacific.
I concluded with the following remarks:
In closing I express the hope that your deliberations will be successful, and successful they must be if we want to preserve the rich resources of our north Pacific high seas for the common benefit of future generations of our respective countries.
Requests for the calling back of the Canadian delegation to Ottawa, as well as accusations against the Japanese of taking advantage of the weak kneed, unprincipled approach displayed by the Canadian government, its fisheries department and its hand picked puppets, are having no other effect than to undermine and render more difficult the progress and success of the present negotiations. I want to state that we have full confidence in the departmental officials, the scientists, the members of the north Pacific commission, and the technical advisers who form part of the Canadian delegation. Their competence and ability are well known throughout the Canadian fisheries industry. In concluding I must add that the Canadian delegation has the full support and confidence of the Fisheries Council of Canada.


Hon. J. A. MacLean (Queens):: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the official opposition I want to say that we welcome this interim report on the negotiations now going on at Washington on the question of modifications to the international north Pacific fisheries treaty. I feel, and I think the minister will agree with me, that one of the most important international problems which will develop in the years ahead is a rational and reasonable method of deciding jurisdiction over and ownership of resources of the high seas so they can be divided equally among the nations which are most entitled to them.
I also, of course, have every confidence in the officials and fishery experts of this country. They are among the best in the world, and I know they will serve our country well in Washington. The most important

North Pacific Treaty
responsibility resting on the Canadian delegation is to assure for Canadians the harvesting of fishery resources that are developing, and that have been developed over the years, as a result of conservation and other measures taken by Canada, jointly with the United States in most cases. The fishery resources which exist are due mainly to the fact that Canada has abstained from hydro developments and various other projects which would endanger the survival of present fish stocks.
I have nothing else to add at the moment, but we will look forward with interest to further reports.


Mr. A. B. Patterson (Fraser Valley):: Mr. Speaker, we also appreciate this interim report regarding the discussions that are currently proceeding in Washington, and we note that the minister has indicated that each of the three nations concerned has indicated its recognition of the fact that the commission and the treaty have worked very successfully down through the years.
I might say there is a great deal of concern among fishermen in British Columbia areas regarding some of the factors involved; and I believe they had a right to be concerned when the announcement was made that the Japanese were requesting, or demanding, the complete elimination of the abstention principle. That is a feature which has been recognized as very worth while and very important down through the years. When the fishermen heard this, of course they were very perturbed about this request.
We also noted what the minister said relative to the confidence the government has in those who are carrying on the negotiations. Unfortunately the minister has not been able to develop an attitude of confidence on the part of the fishermen toward himself and his department because of some of the activities that have taken place very recently. Requests have been made for an immediate meeting of the marine and fisheries committee to discuss some of the problems, but this has not as yet been agreed to. I think these requests are very locigal, and that the fishermen themselves ought to have adequate opportunity to present their views and make known their ideas relative to these various matters in connection with the international north Pacific fisheries treaty. There is the feeling that this treaty ought to be expanded. There is also the suggestion that at least some meetings ought to be held in the west coast area in order to facilitate the representations that are required in this connection.
We do urge once again, Mr. Speaker, that in all these discussions and deliberations this thought must be kept in mind; that our fisheries must be preserved and that Canadian

interests must be maintained. There must also be a recognition of the fact that as far as some of the species of fish are concerned, they are Canadian products; that even though they may go far out into the ocean their conservation is connected with the Canadian fisheries and therefore Canadian fishermen ought to be considered in these matters.
So we welcome this interim report, Mr. Speaker, and will await further reports from time to time.


Mr. Barry Mather (New Westminster):: Mr. Speaker, in replying to the minister's statement I would like to say that we of the New Democratic party still believe, despite his optimistic views, that the number and gravity of the problems facing the fishing industry of Canada are such as to make the immediate establishment of the standing committee of the house on marine and fisheries essential. Particularly in regard to the north Pacific is this the case. We remain of the opinion that this government's sudden implementation of the controversial recommendation of the north Pacific fisheries commission extending new rights to Japan last month should first have been referred to the house committee, with time and opportunity given for all sections of the industry, and the British Columbia government, to make their representations.
As we pointed out then and repeat now, the result of the concessions made to Japan in herring and halibut have led to new demands by Japan at Washington which may jeopardize the British Columbia fishing industry. As an indication of the growth of Japanese activities, figures show a marked decline in the B.C. sockeye catch while a marked increase has taken place in the Japanese high seas sockeye catch. Using statistics from the Canadian Department of Fisheries for the B.C. catch, and from the Pacific Fisherman Year Book for the Japanese catch, we find that a decline in the B.C. sockeye catch has taken place from an annual average catch of 5,478,000 fish during the period 1951 to 1954 to an annual average catch of 3,536,000 fish during the period 1959 to 1962. At the same time the Japanese high seas sockeye catch has risen from an annual average of 2 million in the first five year period mentioned to 12 million in the second. We believe that a thoroughgoing overhaul of the existing north Pacific fisheries treaty is needed and that Canada should interest herself in making the present three power treaty-which I might almost say divides Canada, the United States and Japan-into a four-power treaty, bringing in Russia, the other north Pacific power, and making her subject to regulation.

We press in this regard for the immediate setting up of the House of Commons standing committee on marine and fisheries and for the inclusion in its deliberations, and those going on at Washington, of all sections of the fisheries industry; and in respect of British Columbia problems we ask that the views of the British Columbia government also be taken into consideration.



QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. Fisher: 1.	How much money has been approved to date under the Fitness and Amateur Sport Act for use in Canada and since December 31, 1962?
2.	Of the amount approved, what organizations have received a grant, and how much money has been approved in each case?


Mr. Haidasz:: 1. Total approvals-December 15, 1961 to May 29, 1963, $1,737,140; total approvals-January 1, 1963 to May 29 1963 $715,831.
2.	Grants to the organizations listed below have been made since December 15, 1961. The list includes all grants made directly to organizations by the federal government since the inception of the fitness and amateur sport program but does not include grants to the provinces, to individuals in the form of training awards, costs of projects carried out by the Department of National Health and Welfare, or administrative expenses of the national advisory council.
Amateur Athletic Union of Canada $53,221 British Empire and Commonwealth
Games Association	30,000
Canadian Olympic Association	80,000
Calgary Olympic Development Association	95	999Canadian Amateur Basketball Association	5	999Canadian Amateur Bobsleigh and Tobogganing Association	4,800Canadian Amateur Hockey Association	50	000Canadian Amateur Ski Association	31,095Canadian Amateur Speedskating Association	g	590Canadian Amateur Swimming Association	8	459
Canadian Association of Amateur
Oarsmen	10,000
Canadian Badminton Association	4,700
Canadian Canoe Association	4,200
Canadian Civilian Association of Marksmen	15,000
Canadian Cricket Association	1,633
Questions
Canadian Field Hockey Association Canadian Figure Skating Association Canadian Intercollegiate Athletic Union
Canadian Lacrosse Association Canadian Ladies' Golf Union Canadian Lawn Tennis Association Canadian Roller Skating Association Canadian Ski Patrol Canadian Snowshoe Union Canadian Table Tennis Canadian Volleyball Association Canadian Wheelmen's Association Canadian Yachting Association noyal Canadian Golf Association Rugby Tours Committee of Canada Canadian Wildlife Federation Canadian Youth Hostels Canadian Association for Health, Physical Education and Recreation Boys' Clubs of Canada Young Men's Christian Association Young Women's Christian Association Canadian National Exhibition Canadian Amateur Sports Federation Royal Canadian Legion University of Alberta-Research Grant
University of Montreal-Research Grant
University of Ottawa-Research Grant
University of Ottawa-to assist in developing and maintaining the research reference centre established by UNESCO
2,900
10,000
18,000
3.000 10,000 18,000
9.000
2.000 750
1,500
5,350
5.000 10,000 20,000
14.750
10,000
6.000 6,428
21,810
50.000
10.000
50.000
17.750
16.000 12,732
5,000
v uunuJi	L-DiVlL,


Mr. Caouetle: 
Mr. Garland:: The average income of unmarried wage earners is not available from income tax statistics, but on the basis of average income prevailing for all taxable wage earners in the specified years, the tax, including both income and old age security tax (except for 1949 which consists of income tax only) payable by an unmarried wage earner would be as follows:
	Average Income	Tax Payable
1949	$2,589	$2501960	4,021	4951961	4,132	5161962	not available	not availableARDA PROJECTS, ALBERTA	
Question	No. 119-Mr. Olson:	
1. Has the government approved any projects in the province of Alberta under the Agriculture

Questions
Rehabilitation and Development Act and, if so, what is the nature of these projects and the anticipated cost of each?
2.	What is the share of the cost of each project to be borne by the federal government and the provincial government?


Mr. Beer:: 1. Two ARDA projects have been approved in the province of Alberta. One involves the development of marginal and submarginal agricultural land as a community pasture. The other is an inventory of soil capability for agriculture. A number of additional projects are under consideration. The approved projects and the anticipated cost of each are: Wanham grazing reserve, $14,000; soil capability inventory, $18,500.
2.	The federal government's share of the grazing reserve development cost is 50 per cent and of the soil capability inventory cost is 100 per cent. These amount to the following: Wanham grazing reserve, $7,000; soil capability inventory, $18,500.


* FERRY TERMINAL FACILITIES, NORTH SYDNEY, N.S.
Mr. Muir (Cape Breton: North and Victoria):
When will tenders be called for the terminal facilities at North Sydney for the new ferry service between North Sydney, Nova Scotia and Argentia, Newfoundland?


Mr. Deschaielets:: Considerable planning and design work remains to be done before a decision is reached.


* SMOKING AND LUNG CANCER-INFORMATION TO PUBLIC
Mi. Rynard: 1.	In view of the recent announcements of the British and the Canadian medical associations linking cigarette smoking with lung cancer, has the government made any decision to control this problem?
2.	What steps has the Department of National Health and Welfare taken to inform the public, particularly teen agers, of the definite link between cigarette smoking and lung cancer and the dangers to health and life?


Stanley Haidasz: 1. and 2. This subject is under continuing study by the Department of National Health and Welfare. As this is a matter of government policy any announcement will be made at the appropriate time.


EDMONTON-TREATMENT SERVICES FOR VETERANS
Mr. Lambert: 1.	Are negotiations continuing with the government of the province of Alberta and the University of Alberta respecting changes in treatment services for veterans at the Colonel Mewburn pavilion and related facilities in Edmonton?
2.	If so, has there been any progress made toward providing more adequate and modern facilities to accommodate the expanded load of chronically ill veterans and those requiring domiciliary care?

3.	If progress has not been made, what are the obstacles which prevent a satisfactory agreement?
4.	If negotiations have been suspended, when is it anticipated that they may be resumed?


Mr. Teillel:: 1. No negotiations have been entered into between the federal government and the government of the province of Alberta or the University of Alberta relating to treatment services for veterans in the Edmonton area. Exploratory discussions have taken place between officials of the Department of Veterans Affairs and representatives of the government of the province of Alberta and the University of Alberta.
2.	Some progress has been made in the study of related factors.
3.	Answered by 2.
4.	Not applicable.


SYNTHETIC TOTEM POLES
Mr. Howard: Has any information been received by the government or any agency or branch thereof that one Boris Mange of 969 Marine drive, North Vancouver, B.C., is making totem poles from a synthetic material which are being represented and sold as authentic argillite totems having been carved by native Indians in the Queen Charlotte islands and, if so, has any action been taken to expose this activity?


Mr. Munro:: No. An inquiry was made, however, and it is reported that Mr. Mange has been dealing in the sale of precast plastic totem poles but there is no evidence that
these are purported to be argillite.


RED RIVER FLOOD FUND
Mr. Howard: 1.	Was any money left unexpended from the fund established for the 1950 Red river flood and, if so, how much and in whose possession?
2.	What requirements must be met in order that this money may be used for other floods or the results thereof?


Mr. Dupuis:: 1. On incorporation by special act of parliament of the Canadian Disaster Relief Fund, Inc. (S.C. 1952-53, chapter 59), there was transferred to this corporation $1,485,511.81 from the Manitoba flood relief fund. The last financial report of the corporation made to the Secretary of State, under the terms of the statute, shows the balance of the fund, as at December 31, 1962, to be $1,494,723.27.
2.	Subsection (3) of section 6 of the statute provides for payments to be made from the fund "for the purpose of meeting emergencies and needs arising in Canada from flood, fire, tempest, earthquake, pestilence or other disaster, mitigating loss and suffering caused thereby assisting in repairing damage resulting therefrom, and rehabilitating persons who have suffered injury or loss by reason thereof, when in the opinion of the corporation the implementing of such purposes is beyond the

reasonable capacity of the area affected." The principles upon which payments may be made out of the fund are set out in the bylaws made under section 8 of the statute. Inquiries relative to these principles should be addressed to the secretary treasurer of the corporation, Canada Permanent Toronto General Trust Co., Winnipeg, Man.


CANADIAN MILITARY CONTRIBUTIONS TO COUNTRIES OTHER THAN NATO
Mr. Brewin: 1.	Has Canada made contributions to any countries other than members of NATO by way of (a) weapons (b) military supplies (c) military training?
2.	To what countries have such contributions been made, what is their nature, and what is the cost to Canada in each case?
3.	Has Canada agreed or undertaken in any way to make any such contributions to countries other than NATO, and what is the projected value of such contributions?


Mr. Martin (Essex East):: 1. (a) No. (b) Yes.
(c)	Yes.
2.	India: 8 Dakota aircraft, $646,985; 5 Otter aircraft, $744,050; 36 Harvard aircraft, $747,000; personal military clothing, $1,500,004; nickel for defence production, $855,000; training-1 Indian medical officer in Canada, no cost.
Chile: Medical supplies, $22,342.
Nigeria: Training: 6 Nigerian naval cadets in Canada, $18,900; 20 Nigerian naval technical personnel in Canada, $52,464; 9 Nigerian army officer cadets in Canada, $15,800; 16 Nigerian air force pilots, $117,800.
Ghana: Training: 3 R.C.N. officers as instructors on staff of the military academy in Ghana-pay and allowances, $20,988 per annum; 27 Canadian army officers as instructors in Ghana-pay and allowances, $229,000 per annum; 5 R.C.A.F. officers as instructors in Ghana-pay and allowances, $49,000 per annum.
Argentina: Training 4 naval personnel in Canada, no cost.
Australia: Training 2 naval personnel in Canada, no cost.
Trinidad-Tobago: Training 3 officers in Canada, $4,300.
3.	Under the technical assistance agreement on military training concluded with the government of Ghana on January 8, 1963, Canada has undertaken to make available the services of the Canadian armed forces training team to assist the military authorities of Ghana in the training of the armed forces of Ghana. For the value of this contribution see 2 above.
The government has authorized a grant to India of a maximum of $2,000,000 to defray part of the interest charges on an intergovernmental loan extended to India to cover the purchase of Caribou aircraft.
28902-5-531
Questions
These replies cover the period since the establishment of NATO in 1949.


SAFEGUARDING PUBLIC FROM EFFECTS OF SMOKING
Mr. Mather: 1.	Has the Department of National Health and Welfare taken note of the activities of the governments of Sweden, Norway, Italy, Russia and Great Britain in combating cigarette smoking as a cause of lung cancer and other diseases?
2.	Has the department taken note of the educational efforts in this field undertaken by certain of the provincial health departments of Canada?
3.	What steps are being taken, or are contemplated, by the Department of National Health and Welfare toward safeguarding the public, and particularly young people, against the toll of nicotine addiction?


Stanley Haidasz: 1. Yes.
2.	Yes.
3.	This subject is under continuing study by the Department of National Health and Welfare. As this is a matter of government policy any announcement will be made at the appropriate time.


RADIOACTIVE FALL-OUT IN DRINKING WATER
Mr. Scott: 1.	Are any studies carried out by the government to test the radioactive fall-out in drinking water and, if so, what is the nature of such studies, by whom are they conducted, and at what frequency?
2.	What is the present level of radioactive fallout in drinking water?


Stanley Haidasz: I. The radiation protection division of the Department of National Health and Welfare analyses the drinking water of major cities from time to time as an exploratory measure. The fall-out levels measured have been so low that a regular program is not maintained. In addition, information is obtained on a regular basis from monitoring studies on levels in the environment of nuclear reactors. The radiation protection division samples the raw water intakes at pumping stations at Des Joachims, Deep River, Petawawa, Pembroke on the Ottawa river and Kincardine and Port Elgin on lake Huron. Samples are taken daily and composited for monthly analysis of strontium 90, strontium 89 and cesium 137.
2. Strontium 90 levels in drinking water are generally less than 1 micromicrocurie per litre.


METHOD USED TO MAINTAIN SUGAR PRICE
Mr. Orlikow: Do the sugar companies use a delivered base point price system to maintain present prices?


Mr. Sharp:: Sugar prices are quoted f.o.b. refinery, ex-warehouse and on a basing point system. Arrangement for purchase is according to the preference of the buyer.

Questions


SHAUGHNESSY VETERANS HOSPITAL, VANCOUVER -ORDERLIES EMPLOYED
Mr. Priitie: 1.	How many orderlies are employed at Shaugh-nessy veterans' hospital In Vancouver?
2.	What is the ratio of orderlies to patients at this hospital?
3.	What is the current rate of pay for orderlies?
4.	How many hours per week do orderlies work?
5.	How many consecutive days do orderlies work before receiving their days off?


Roger-Joseph Teillet: 1. There are 218 hospital nursing orderly positions on the establishment of Shaughnessy veterans' hospital. Of these positions, 215 were occupied on April 30, 1963.
2.	During the month of April, 1963 the ratio of orderlies to patients was on average one orderly to 4.4 patients.
3.	Hospital nursing orderly 1, $2,820-$3,180;
hospital	nursing	orderly	2,	$2,970-$3,420;hospital	nursing	orderly	3,	$3,210-$3,660;hospital	nursing	orderly	4,	$3,750-$4,200;
chief nursing orderly, $4,050-$4,500.
4.	40 hours per week.
5.	The number of consecutive days that orderlies work before receiving days off varies, depending on the duty roster, from a minimum of 3 days to a maximum of 7 days. By special request of an orderly or in event of an emergency such as illness the maximum might, in exceptional circumstances, be as great as 9 days.


COST OF TRANSPORTING VISITORS TO NORAD HEADQUARTERS
Mr. Prittie: 
Mr. Hellyer:: 1. Yes, eight members of the NATO air training advisory group visited the R.C.A.F. during the period 20-29 May 1963.
(a)	A request for this liaison visit was received from supreme headquarters allied powers Europe (SHAPE) on 27 June 1962 and was approved by the chief of the air staff on 27 July 1962.
(b)	The purpose of the visit was to discuss and observe R.C.A.F. pilot training techniques, procedures and equipment.
(c)	The team visited R.C.A.F. stations Winnipeg, Gimli, and Cold Lake, and were quartered at St. Hubert while visiting Cana-dair, Montreal.
(d)	The party visited Winnipeg during the period 20-21 May, Gimli 21-23 May, Cold Lake 23-25 May, St. Hubert 25-29 May.
(e)	The group was composed of one R.A.F. wing commander, one Royal Hellenic air force major, one French air force commandant, one R.C.A.F. flight lieutenant, one R.A.F. flight lieutenant, one Italian air force captain, one Turkish air force captain and one U.S. air force captain.
2. No.


COMMEMORATIVE STAMP SHOWING FISHING SCHOONER
Mr. Crouse: Is the government giving consideration to issuing a commemorative stamp showing a fishing schooner in full sail, thereby perpetuating in memory a method of fishing which is now extinct in Nova Scotia?


Mr. McWilliam:: Not at the present time.


FARM LOAN APPLICATIONS, COMPTON AND FRONTENAC COUNTIES, P.Q.
Paul Theodore Hellyer: In so far as the Department of National Defence is concerned.
1.	Where an R.C.A.F. aircraft is used to transport the group, the costs of operating the aircraft are charged to R.C.A.F. appropriations.
2.	and 3. Three flights at a total cost of $19,000.


Mr. Lalulippe: Since the last amendment made to the Farm Credit Act (a) how many loans has the corporation approved in the counties of (i) Compton (ii) Frontenac (b) what is the total value of these farm loans (c) how many applications were received from farmers in these counties (d) how many applications were not approved (e) how many applications are under review?


Bruce Silas Beer: 


CANADIAN VISIT BY NATO AIR TRAINING ADVISORY GROUP
Mr. Stefanson: 1. Has a group of NATO officers, members of the air training advisory group, supreme headquarters of allied powers in Europe, visited Canada recently and, if so (a) at whose invitation did they come <b) what was the purpose of the visit (c) what

Municipal county of
Compton	Frontenac	Total(a)	Nil	5	5(b)	Nil	$59,700	$59,700(c)	19	8	27(d)	1	0	1(e)	18	7	25


FARM LOAN APPLICATIONS, COMPTON-FRONTENAC CONSTITUENCY
Mr. Lalulippe: How many applications for farm loans were received from residents of the constituency of Compton-Frontenac in 1961 and 1962 and, of these, how many were approved, and what was the total value of the loans approved?


Bruce Silas Beer: The Farm Credit Corporation does not maintain statistical records by electoral districts. However, tor the municipal counties of Compton and Frontenac, which together approximately coincide with the electoral district of Compton-Frontenac, the answer is:
Questions


John Richard Garland: Number of N.H.A. loans granted in the riding of Compton-Frontenac.
Authorized lenders Number
Year of loans Amount
1962	-	-1963	-	-
(Jan.-Mar.)


C.M.H.C.
[Stage Direction]
Number
of loans Amount 8	$85,973
Note: Information regarding applications for loans, except those that were approved, is not available.
(Text):
	1961	1962
Loan applications received	7	41Loan applications approved	4	30Amount of loan approvals	$44,000	$413,700FEDERAL CIVIL SERVANTS, COMPTON-FRONTENAC

Mr. Laiulippe: 1.	What is the total number, the salary, and the classification, of federal civil servants in the constituency of Compton-Frontenac?
2.	What is the total of the annual salaries paid these civil servants in this constituency?


Mitchell William Sharp: 1. Information on the number of civil servants is not available by constituency. However, the economic region which includes the counties of Compton, Frontenac, Stanstead and Sherbrooke had 549 employees under the Civil Service Act at September 30, 1962. There were some 110 different classifications held by these employees.
2.	Salaries are not available by region.
(Translation):


N.H.A. LOANS, COMPTON-FRONTENAC CONSTITUENCY
Mr. Latulippe: How many applications for loans under the terms of the National Housing Act were filed, from points in the constituency of Compton-Frontenac, with Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation in 1962, and 1963, and, of these totals, how many loans were granted and what was their total value?


NEW WESTMINSTER, B.C., ARMOURY
Mr. Mather: Is consideration being given to the building of an armoury in New Westminster, British Columbia, and, if so, (a) when (b) at what location (c) what will be the total cost?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: There are no current plans for constructing a new armoury at New Westminster, B.C.


SURPLUS FOOD DISTRIBUTION TO SENIOR CITIZENS
Mr. Basford: Since 1945, under what circumstances and under what terms, has the government of Canada distributed, either by way of gift or special price, surplus food stocks to senior citizens?


Bruce Silas Beer: Since 1945 the government of Canada has not distributed any surplus food stocks specifically designated for senior citizens. However, during the period February 1955 to August 1957 butter was made available to non-profit institutions in Canada at a reduced price, and from October 1959 to January 1961 canned pork was donated to welfare and charitable institutions in Canada. Senior citizens would have benefited through, these distributions.


WHEAT EXPORTS
Mr. Basford: From the beginning of the 1961-62 crop year to date, what were the total export shipments of wheat each month, and from each port?


Mr. Pepin:: 
FARM CREDIT LOANS
Mr. Vincent: During the 1962-63 fiscal year, what was the number and total amount of the loans approved by the farm credit corporation (a) in Canada (b) in the province of Quebec (c) in the constituency of Nicolet-Yamaska?


Bruce Silas Beer: (a) Canada: No. loans, 7,438; amount, $90,924,300.
(b)	Province of Quebec; No. loans, 804; amount, $11,434,700.
(c)	(i) Nicolet (municipal county): No. loans, 51; amount, $607,400. (ii) Yamaska (municipal county): No. loans, 33; amount, $439,200.


BRUCELLOSIS CONTROL, QUEBEC
Mr. Vincent: 1.	When did the government first constitute brucellosis control areas in the province of Quebec?
2.	How many counties of the province are now certified?
3.	How many counties are now in brucellosis control areas, and which counties will be certified in the near future?
4.	How many counties have not yet been designated brucellosis control areas?
5.	Since these measures were instituted in the province of Quebec, what amounts has the government spent for this work?
6.	For the county of Yamaska, what are the figures relating to (a) the total number of animals (b) the total number of reactors (c) the percentage of animals slaughtered (d) the total cost of the operations including compensation paid?
7.	On what date will the operations probably be completed in the province of Quebec?


Bruce Silas Beer: 1. The first brucellosis control area in the province of Quebec was established by a ministerial order dated April 17, 1958.
2.	To date 32 counties in the province have qualified as brucellosis certified areas.
3.	Forty two counties have been accepted as brucellosis control areas. Initial tests have been completed in four of those not already certified. Retests are now being conducted in these areas, and it is expected that they can be certified within the next few months. The counties involved are Yamaska, Wolfe, Bagot and Richmond.
4.	There are 34 counties in the province which have not yet been designated as brucellosis control areas.
5.	Since the brucellosis testing program was introduced in Quebec, $3,161,825 has been paid to livestock owners for cattle ordered slaughtered. Because of the multiple nature of the duties of the inspectors engaged in this work other costs cannot be accurately identified.
6.	(a) The initial test of cattle in the Yamaska county for brucellosis has just been completed. There were a total of 36,261 cattle in the area.
(b) 2,601 reactor animals were uncovered in 526 herds.
Questions
6.	(c) The percentage of the cattle population classed as reactors was 7.17. All reactors are ordered slaughtered.
(d)	$141,077 has been paid as compensation for animals slaughtered. As outlined in the reply to part 5, other costs cannot be accurately identified.
7.	If the present rate of testing is maintained, the initial brucellosis test should be completed by the end of the year 1965.


*SITE FOR CORRECTIONAL INSTITUTION, GREY-BRUCE CONSTITUENCY
Mr. Winkler: 1.	On what date did the Department of Public Works receive a directive from the Department of Justice to acquire a site for a medium security correctional institution in the Markdale-Dundalk area of Grey-Bruce?
2.	Did investigation reveal technical suitability
of site?
3.	Was the water supply obtained sufficient for the purposes of the institution?


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: 1. March 1, 1962.
2 and 3. These investigations have not been fully completed.


FEDERAL POST OFFICE BUILDINGS, CONSTITUENCY OF SELKIRK
Mr. Stefanson: 1.	How many federal post office buildings were built between March 31, 1958 and April 8, 1963, in the federal constituency of Selkirk?
2.	Where are these located: when, and at what cost were they built?
3.	Have sites been bought at other locations in Selkirk constituency for post office buildings and, if so, where and when have sites been purchased, from whom, and at what cost?
4.	When are tenders expected to be called, and work to be completed?


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: 1. Six.
2.	Ashern, completed 1963,	$23,807.95;
Eriksdale, completed 1962, $22,997.32; Fisher Branch, completed 1960, $18,921.28; Lundar, completed 1961, $19,432.91; Riverton, completed 1962, $23,918.97; Winnipeg Beach, completed 1962, $19,300.56.
3.	Yes, a site was purchased at Arborg from the Canadian Pacific Railway in November, 1962, for $2,800.
4.	No date has been decided.


FORESTRY PROGRAM, CHIGNECTO GAME SANCTUARY, N.S.
Mr. Coates: Have representations been received from individuals or associations regarding the establishment of a forestry program at the Chignecto game sanctuary in Nova Scotia and, if so, what action has been taken by the government in this regard?


Mr. Nicholson:: No.

Questions


HARBOUR IMPROVEMENTS, WALLACE, N.S.
Mr. Coates: 1.	Are wharf improvements to be carried out at Wallace and, if so, what will they consist of?
2.	Will the Wallace harbour be dredged in the near future?
3.	Are wharf repairs to be carried out at Wallace bridge?


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: 1. No.
2.	Yes.
3.	No.


PUGWASH, N.S. WHARF
Mr. Coates: Will tenders be called for the construction of a fishermen's wharf at Pugwash, Nova Scotia, and, if so, when will such tenders be announced?


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Yes, it is hoped that plans and specifications will be completed in time to call tenders and award the contract before the fall.


PORT PHILIP, N.S., WHARF IMPROVEMENTS
Mr. Coates: Will tenders be called for wharf improvements at Port Philip, Cumberland county, Nova Scotia, and, if so, when will such tenders be called?


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: No, not at the present time.


TOURIST SPENDINGS, U.S. AND CANADA
Mr. Mather: What have been the per capita spendings by tourists for the years 1960, 1961 and 1962 in regard to (a) Canadians in the United States (b) United States citizens in Canada?


Mitchell William Sharp: (a) Expenditures by residents of Canada on travel in the United States in 1960, 1961 and 1962 per capita on the basis of population were: $25.90, $25.20 and $22.50 respectively.
(b) Expenditures by residents of the United States on travel in Canada in 1960, 1961 and 1962 per capita on the basis of population were: $2.10, $2.40 and $2.75 respectively.
The data are not classifiable by citizenship.


PAY INCREASES, ARMED FORCES
Mr. Mather: 1.	What was the amount, in dollars, per month, of the pay increase recently granted to privates in the armed forces?
2.	What was the amount, in dollars, per month of the pay increase recently granted to colonels?
3.	What was the percentage pay increase granted to lower paid officers and men in the ranks?
4.	What was the percentage pay increase granted to officers above the rank of sergeant?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: 1. $4 on basic pay, plus increases up to $6 on progressive pay, plus $6 on trade group 2 or nil to $18 on trade group 3 depending on classification assigned.

2. $90 on basic pay, plus $10 at maximum progressive pay.
3.	On Basic	PayPrivate recruit	3.7	per	centPrivate 6 years	5.7	per	centCorporal	4.2	per	centSergeant	3.8	per	cent4. Staff sergeant	6.8	per	centWarrant officer 2	6.3	per	centWarrant officer 1	6.6	per	cent2nd Lieutenant	4.4	per	centLieutenant	3.1	per	centCaptain	8.9	per	centMajor	8.7	per	centLieutenant Colonel	10.9	per	centColonel	11.1	per	centBrigadier	4.5	per	centMajor General	6.6	per	cent


REPRESENTATIONS FROM UNIVERSITY FOUNDATION
Mr. Fisher: 1.	Did the Prime Minister receive a presentation from the Canadian universities foundation in the month of May, 1963, and, if so, what was the gist of the request put forward by the Canadian universities foundation?
2.	Was it possible for the Prime Minister to discern in the representations by the Canadian universities foundation that these were supported by the universities in the province of Quebec?
3.	If these representations are presently under consideration by the government, can the Prime Minister give any indication as to the likelihood when action may be taken on these requests or when the requests may be turned down?
4.	Did the Prime Minister or the government think it necessary to suggest to the Canadian universities foundation that their representations should have been put first to the provincial government?


Mr. Pearson:: 1. Yes. The Prime Minister and several of his colleagues received the presentation from the foundation, which asked primarily that the parliament of Canada authorize expenditure of $300 million for capital grants to universities and colleges over the three year period commencing July 1, 1963, to match amounts that the universities might obtain elsewhere. These grants would be used in constructing buildings for teaching and research in any field and for essential supporting services. The foundation also proposed that parliament provide at least $2 million per annum through the Canada Council for a program of increased support of scholarships and research in the humanities and social sciences and the improvement of university and library collections in these fields. The foundation also recommended that special operating grants be provided for the universities in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick to bring up the university grants per student in those provinces to a level close to the national average.
2. The vice president of the foundation who assisted in the presentation, is the head of

one of the universities in Quebec, and there was no indication that the universities in that province did not support the representations.
3.	The representations are being carefully examined and any announcement concerning them will be made at the appropriate time.
4.	The foundation, being a nation wide organization, does not deal with provincial governments. The individual universities and colleges, members of the foundation, make their representations directly to provincial governments.
(Translation):


COMMITTEE STUDY OP GLASSCO REPORT
Mr. Latulippe: Does the government intend to appoint a parliamentary committee for the purpose of studying the recommendations of the royal commission on government organization (Glassco commission) and, if so, when do they intend to appoint such a committee?


Mr. Lamoniagne:: Mr. Speaker, the government does not intend at the present time to set up such a committee.
(Text):


ARMED FORCES OVERSEAS VOTE ANNOUNCEMENT
Mr. Latulippe: Does the government intend to submit amendments to the Canada Elections Act to the effect that the vote of the armed forces overseas shall be taken, known and released on the same dates as the vote of the other Canadian voters?


Yvon Dupuis: The government proposes to refer the report of the chief electoral officer to the committee on privileges and elections for study. No doubt this matter could be considered by the committee.


CUSTOMS PORTS, COMPTON-FRONTENAC CONSTITUENCY
Mr. Latulippe: 1.	How many customs ports are located on the boundary between the constituency of Compton-Frontenac and the United States?
2.	How many employees are stationed at each one of these ports?
3.	What are their names and salaries?
4.	What is the operating cost of these ports?
5.	How much revenue have these ports brought to Canada during the last five years?


John Richard Garland: 1. Five. Ports of Lac Meg-antic and Comins Mills outports of Chartier-ville, Hereford Road and Woburn.
(Note: Lac Megantic, although located a short distance from the boundary, is the point of clearance for the C.P. Railway.)
2.	Comins Mills, including Chartierville and Hereford Road, 16; Lac Megantic, including Woburn, 17.
	Questions	
3.	Comins Mills	
M.	, A. Nicholson	$ 6,720.G.	F. Bedard	$ 4,740.J.	P. M. E. Bolduc	$ 4,740.J.	S. A. L. Bouchard	$ 4,740.J.	A. R. Langevin	$ 4,740.J.	P. E. Leclerc	$ 4,320.J.	O. L. Therrien	$ 5,400.J.	F. Tremblay	$ 3,870.$39,270.Hereford Road	J.	R. A. Gagner	$ 5,400.J.	M. R. Bourret	$ 4,740.J.	T. P. Custeau	$ 4,740.J.	J. M. H. Duchesneau	$ 4,740.Chartierville	D.	N. Morrison	$ 5,400.J.	B. G. Blanchette	$ 4,320.F.	A. MacLeod	$ 4,320.J.	G. A. Martin	$ 4,320.$18,360.Woburn	J.	S. L. Allard (part time)	$1,2,06.J.	C. T. E. Cantin	$ 5,400.J.	A. A. Chouinard	$ 4,320.J.	A. D. Chouinard	$ 4,320.J.	R. Falardeau	$ 4,740.J.	L. G. D. Fortier	$ 4,740.J.	L. P. Parent	$ 4,320.$29,046.Lac Megantic	J.	N. O. Poulin	$ 6,720.J.	J. C. C. Billodeau	$ 4,320.J.	R. E. Charest	$ 4,740.J.	G. R. Latulippe	$ 4,320.J.	H. Miller	$ 4,740.J.	A. F. Morin	$ 4,740.J.	D. G. G. Nadeau	$ 4,320.G.	A. Ouellette	$ 4,320.J.	F. L. Roy	$ 4,740.J.	E. J. Tetreault	$ 5,130.

4.	Approximate operating cost, including salaries and maintenance for the year ended March 31, 1963, $166,058.
5.	Total revenue 1958-59 to 1962-63 inc. $463,872.62.


EXPORTS AND IMPORTS, COMPTON-FRONTENAC CONSTITUENCY
Mr. Latulippe: Has the government any statistics about imports and exports between the constituency of Compton-Frontenac and the states of Maine and Vermont?

Questions


Mitchell William Sharp: No, the government does not have any statistics on imports or exports between the constituency of Compton-Fron-tenac and the states of Maine and Vermont.
(Translation):


ESTIMATED COST OF WORLD FAIR SITE
Mr. Pigeon: Has the government received estimates of the overall cost of preparing the site for the 1967 world's fair and, if so (a) what are such estimates (b) what proportion of such costs will be met by the federal government?


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Mr. Speaker, so far we have not received estimates or technical reports, but I will refer those questions to the world's fair commissioner.


TECHNICAL REPORTS ON WORLD FAIR SITE
Mr. Pigeon: In connection with the site of the 1967 world's fair, have any technical reports been received which would reassure the Canadian people concerning (a) any possible increase in hazards for ships entering the St. Lawrence seaway because of new cross currents at this point (b) the possibility of increased pressure on the St. Lawrence seaway dam which might be caused by the reclaiming of 12,000,000 square feet of land and the subsequent building of high-rise apartment blocks on this site which could create additional pressure against the seaway wall (c) any hazards that might result from the filling of the site to a depth of up to 25 feet, one of which could be possible crumbling and settling (d) the hazard that might be due to increasing the current of the Ste. Marie river, and to creating further problems for foreign ships docking in Montreal (e) the need for technical and security measures required for bridge building between the government owned Jacques Cartier bridge and the C.N.R. Victoria railway bridge and Notre Dame island, which is included in the project (f) the need for studies required in the construction of a low level bridge between Point St. Charles and St. Helen's island as proposed in the plan (g) the increased possibility of ice jams in St. Helen's island basin (h) the increased hazard to the city of Verdun by the possible flooding of Laprairie basin which could result from unexpected freezing and ice jams (i) the meeting of conditions and requirements of the international joint commission and of the Migratory Birds Convention Act (j) the need for government co-operation with Quebec hydro as to the effects of the project on provincial hydraulic resources?


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: The answer is similar to the one given to question No. 311, Mr. Speaker.
(Text):


LIME ASSISTANCE PAYMENTS
Mr. Vincent: 1. What percentage of the direct payments made by the provinces for lime in the fiscal year 1962-63 was covered by the federal aid program?
fMr. Latulippe.]
2.	What was the cash contribution made by the federal government in the fiscal year 1962-63 (a) for Canada (b) for the province of Quebec?
3.	How many tons were granted in the fiscal year 1962-63 (a) for Canada (b) for the province of Quebec?
4.	What was the cost per ton to both governments of the contributions made during the 1962-63 fiscal year under the Quebec provincial program?


Bruce Silas Beer: 1. The federal lime subsidy payments represented 60 per cent of the direct payments made by the provinces.
2.	The federal subsidy payments for the fiscal year 1962-63 totalled (a) Canada $2,471,280, and (b) Quebec $2,098,623.
3.	The subsidy was paid in 1962-63 on a total of, (a) Canada, 1,313,093.51 tons; (b) Quebec, 1,121,562.03 tons.
4.	The net cost of direct subsidy payment in the province of Quebec in 1962-63 was: (a) Canada, $1.87 per ton; (b) Quebec, $1.24 per ton; total, $3.11 per ton.


REMOVAL OF MILK SUBSIDY
Mr. Smith: Upon what date was the regulation or order made removing the 12 cent subsidy on surplus fluid milk used for making butter?


Bruce Silas Beer: No regulation or order was made removing the 12 cent subsidy on surplus fluid milk used for making butter. For the dairy year beginning May 1, 1962, the agricultural stabilization board was authorized to purchase creamery butter at 64 cents a pound and resell it at 52 cents a pound. The prior authority lapsed on April 30, 1963.


OLD AGE PENSIONERS, COMPTON-FRONTENAC CONSTITUENCY
Mr. Latulippe: 1.	How many persons in the constituency of Compton-Frontenac are in receipt of old age pensions?
2.	What are the figures for the past five years?
3.	Does the government intend to increase these pensions?


Stanley Haidasz: 1. and 2. This information is not available.
3.	As this is a matter of government policy any proposed legislation will be announced by the government at the appropriate time.


BLIND PERSONS ALLOWANCE RECIPIENTS, COMPTON-FRONTENAC CONSTITUENCY
Mr. Latulippe: 1.	How many persons in the constituency of Compton-Frontenac are in receipt of blind persons' allowances?
2.	Does the government intend to increase these allowances?


Stanley Haidasz: 1. This information is not available.
2. As this is a matter of government policy any proposed legislation will be announced by the government at the appropriate time.


HARBOUR DEVELOPMENT, DINGWALL, N.S.
Mr. Muir (Cape Breton: North and Victoria):
What are the plans of the government to continue harbour development at Dingwall, Nova Scotia, and will any further work be carried out at this location this year?


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: The construction of rock mound groynes is being considered. This would depend on the results of a survey now under way by the hydrographic service and national research council.


HARBOUR DEVELOPMENTS, BAY ST. LAWRENCE, N.S.
Mr. Muir (Cape Breton: North and Victoria):
What harbour developments will be carried out at Bay St. Lawrence, Nova Scotia, this year?


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: No harbour development projects are scheduled for Bay St. Lawrence, Nova Scotia, this year.


POINT EDWARD NAVAL BASE REFIT PROGRAM
Mr. Muir (Cape Breton: North and Victoria):
What is the planned schedule of refits for Point Edward naval base for the next year?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: The refit planning for Point Edward naval base calls for the refit of one frigate or equivalent at any one time making an approximate work load of three frigates per year.


HARBOUR IMPROVEMENTS, SYDNEY, N.S.
Mr. Muir (Cape Breton: North and Victoria):
Are major harbour improvements planned for Sydney harbour by the Department of Public Works and, if so, what are such improvements?


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: It is planned to carry out deck surfacing and improvements in the ancillary services this year. A preliminary investigation will also be made to determine the feasibility and cost of providing deeper drafts and increased berthage at the public wharf. In addition an expenditure of $30,000 has been approved representing the federal government's share of redredging the berths at the Dominion Steel and Coal Company's three wharves. The total cost of this project is estimated at $60,000 to be shared equally by the company and the federal government.
28902-5-54J
Orders for Returns


IMPORTS OF AXLES FOR RAILWAY ROLLING STOCK
Mr. MacEwan: 1.	Will the government advise as to the names of the companies which are importing from England railway axles for railway rolling stock?
2.	How many axles have been imported to date, and what is the value of same?
3.	What action does the government intend to take in order to protect the employees of the only railway rolling stock axle plant in Canada at Trenton, Nova Scotia?


Mitchell William Sharp: 1. This information is available to the government for the purpose of customs administration and the Statistics Act and accordingly cannot be disclosed.
2.	Answered by No. 1.
3.	Axles are dutiable at 7i per cent under the British tariff preference and subject to the requirements of the Customs Act as to valuation. It is understood that importation of railway axles has occurred intermittently over a considerable period of years and the government is not aware of any new situation which requires special measures.


COMMUNITY PASTURE IMPROVEMENTS, SASK.
Mr. Korchinski: What work is planned for 1963 for the community pastures in Saskatchewan at (a) Kelvington (b) Hazel Dell (c) Foam Lake?


Bruce Silas Beer: Work planned for 1963 for the three specified community pastures in Saskatchewan is as follows:
(a)	Kelvington-Nil. Construction was completed this spring and cattle were accepted from patrons on June 3, 1963.
(b)	Hazel Dell-Fencing corrals and development of stock watering facilities. It is anticipated construction will advance to the stage to permit operation of the pasture in 1964.
(c)	Foam Lake-Construction of the pasture headquarters building. Other facilities are completed and cattle were accepted from patrons as of June 3, 1963.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. Richard: 1. Has the crown, through the national capital commission or otherwise, acquired property on the east side of Sussex street in the city of Ottawa, for the purpose of implementing the so-called "Mile of Living History" in connection with the centennial celebration of confederation in 1967, and, if so, (a) have expropriation proceedings been taken to acquire the real estate in that area (b) how many properties have already been acquired, and what has been the cost of such acquisitions (c) how many properties remain to be acquired, and what is the estimated cost (d) is it the intention of the government to proceed with the plan and to restore the properties so acquired to then-original appearance and use?

Inquiries of the Ministry
2. What are the immediate plans of the government for the demolition of the properties owned by the crown on the north side of Sussex, particularly, the Daly building, the temporary buildings of the national revenue department and the block facing Notre Dame basilica?


ACQUISITION OF PROPERTY, OTTAWA
Mr. Richard: Has the crown, through the national capital commission, acquired real estate in the city of Ottawa in the area north of Boteler street between Sussex street and the Rideau river, and, if so, (a) what is the official description of the area (b) was the acquisition done through expropriation (c) what is the total estimated cost of the acquisition of the said land and property (d) how many settlements have been made to date, and what is the total amount of consideration paid therefor (e) will any of the present occupants of the properties in the said area be allowed to remain thereon and, if so, for what period of time (f) how much of the parcel in the Boteler-Sussex area so acquired is to be reserved for approaches to the Macdonald-Cartier bridge (g) is part of the said area being reserved for the use of the public works department for the erection of government buildings and, if so, how many buildings will be erected thereon, and has the selection been made?


OWNERSHIP AND MAINTENANCE OF PROPERTY, OTTAWA
Mr. Richard: 1.	Does the crown or any of its agencies own property lying on King Edward avenue between Boteler and Rideau streets in the city of Ottawa?
2.	Has the national capital commission or its predecessor the federal district commission, made any arrangement in the past with the corporation of the city of Ottawa to maintain any part of King Edward avenue?
3.	Have any plans been made by the national capital commission to contribute to the restoration and improvement of the drive on King Edward avenue from the Minto bridges to Rideau street?



UNITED NATIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John George Diefenbaker: I should like to address a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs. In view of what we read in the press and hear over the radio regarding new advances being made by the United Kingdom and the United States to the Soviet union with respect to the ending of atomic tests, is the minister in a position to let the house and the country know whether he is hopeful in this regard, and what representations or suggestions Canada has made in order to bring about an agreement on this matter so long under consideration?


Paul Joseph James Martin: As the prime minister has mentioned-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I must say, Mr. Speaker, I deserve the censure I am receiving from the Minister of Labour who complains about this persistent error which is now becoming so classic that it has no meaning whatsoever. The Prime Minister says "Don't do it again." He will forgive me if I say he made the same mistake a few days ago. However, there is no significance in the mistake either now or in the future, so the right hon. gentleman should not draw any wrong conclusions.
As the prime minister-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Paul Joseph James Martin: As the right hon. gentleman has just noted, the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom and President Kennedy have personally communicated with Premier Khrushchev on this matter in recent weeks. It has now been announced that agreement has been reached to hold further talks in Moscow, probably in July. It is our understanding that these talks will not be at the foreign minister or head of government level, but will involve senior representatives of the three countries. President Kennedy has also stated that the United States will refrain from atmospheric nuclear tests as long as other states do not test in the atmosphere.
We welcome this initiative of Great Britain and the United States to bring a halt to nuclear testing. We hope the projected talks in Moscow will result in a comprehensive agreement. This government is fully committed to the goal of ending all nuclear tests by international treaty. We shall continue to do everything in our power to achieve this end.



COLUMBIA RIVER-OPPORTUNITY FOR REPRESENTATIONS ON TREATY

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. W. Herridge (Kootenay West):: I wish to address a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs. My question is of urgent national importance and is the result of many inquiries I have received in recent days.
In view of the keen interest and concern of many labour, farmer, business, women's and other organizations in the renegotiation of the present draft Columbia river treaty, and their desire to present their views to the external affairs committee before any decisions are made, would the minister inform the house if an opportunity will be provided for members of these organizations or other

persons to bring their views before the external affairs committee prior to a final agreement being reached with the government of British Columbia, or prior to any final agreement with the government of the United States?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. gentleman for giving me notice of his intention to ask this question. I can only say that I would refer him to what I said on June 5 in answer to a similar question by the hon. member for Burnaby-Coquitlam.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: A supplementary question. Reference to that answer is not an answer to my question. I asked two questions of the minister today. I think in fairness to the people concerned we are entitled to an answer, and I would like an answer to those two questions. The question asked the other day was answered in very general terms.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, I have before me what I said that day, as reported on page 674 of Hansard, and I would repeat it to the hon. gentleman:
All aspects of the treaty, as well as all aspects involved in what I hope will be a firm agreement between the government of Canada and British Columbia, will be open for examination and discussion in this house and in the external affairs committee.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: That means, Mr. Speaker, that persons wishing to present their views will have the opportunity after the government has reached a firm agreement with the government of British Columbia; after decisions are made.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, I think I have answered the hon. gentleman's question. I have pointed out that there will be no ratification of the treaty until such time as this matter has been discussed in this house and in the external affairs committee. The agreement between the government of Canada and the province of British Columbia hinges completely on whether or not there is ratification of the treaty.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I should like to address another supplementary question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs. In view of the promises made by the Prime Minister in numerous letters to my constituents and other persons in British Columbia that a Liberal government would renegotiate the Columbia treaty, that no decision would be made until persons interested were consulted, does the minister think that that promise is being kept by asking people to come here after an agreement has been made with the
Inquiries of the Ministry government of British Columbia and also with the government of the United States?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I want to assure my hon. friend that if he will carefully examine the reply I made today, and the replies on other occasions, he will see that the government is living up to the assurances given to the Canadian people by the Prime Minister.



CANADIAN CONSTITUTION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Andrew Brewin (Greenwood):: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Justice; I gave him notice of it the other day. Would the Minister of Justice be good enough to inform the house whether any steps are being taken by the government with a view to bringing the Canadian constitution under Canadian control before the celebration of Canada's one hundredth birthday in 1967, and what steps are proposed, if any?


Mr. Speaker:: I regret to advise the hon. member that there is no real basic urgency in that question and I would suggest he put it on the order paper.


Francis Andrew Brewin: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order it is going to take a very long time apparently-


Mr. Speaker:: There is no point of order. (Translation):



NORTHERN AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. L. J. Pigeon (Joliette-L'Assomption-Monfcalm):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Prime Minister. Does the government propose to agree to the request of the Quebec government that it be entrusted with the administration and the education of the Eskimos of new Quebec? (Text):


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, that is a question of government policy, and we will deal with it as soon as possible.



LIVESTOCK


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Lawrence E. Kindt (Macleod):: Mr. Speaker, one of the worst droughts in history is taking a very heavy toll in southern Alberta and the southwestern corner of Saskatchewan.

Inquiries of the Ministry Thousands ol cattle are concentrated in this drought stricken area and some liquidation of breeding stock is inevitable.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member-


Mr.   Kindi@: I am coming to the point.


Mr. Speaker:: If the hon. member has a question will he put it.


Mr.   Kindi@: Yes. The price impact if these cattle are thrown on the market, will lower the price for all cattle producers and livestock feeders.


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Mr.   Kindi@: Will the Minister of Agriculture inform the house as to the type of action program which he has worked out and which he stands ready to implement to meet the situation?


Hon. Harry W. Hays (Minister of Agriculture):: Mr. Speaker, in answer to the hon. member may I say I was speaking to my ranch people today and it has been raining since Friday, and a lot of them are going to have to go to church to get the rain to stop.


Mr.   Kindi@: A supplementary question and a correction. The amount of rain at Pincher Creek was .39 inches; the amount of rain at Calgary was .13 inches-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Mr.   Kindi@: -and the amount of rain at Medicine Hat was .03 inches. I just got that from the weather bureau, so the Minister of Agriculture is completely out of order.


Mr. Speaker:: Order.


Mr.   Kindi@: I want to raise a question of privilege.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. It is one of the attributes of the Speaker that I can stand longer than most other people. May I point out that we are entering into a debate. If the hon. member has a point of order or question of privilege would he please state it.


Mr.   Kindi@: I have, sir, in that the Minister of Agriculture has seen fit to make a statement to this house which is totally incorrect and thereby impute-


Mr. Pickersgill:: Mr. Speaker, a point of order.


Mr.   Kindi@: -that my question was wrong, and I will take care of the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate. I am talking on a point of order.
[Mr. Kindt.)


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. This must be my day. Has the Secretary of State a contribution to make?


John Whitney Pickersgill: I was rising, sir, to point out that no question of privilege can arise with respect to an answer to a question. It seems to me, in the circumstances, that the hon. gentleman was out of order in raising what purported to be a question of privilege. [Later:]


Mr. H. A. Olson (Medicine Hat):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to address a question to the Minister of National Defence arising out of the answer he gave a few minutes ago. If in fact the conditions suggested by the hon. member for Macleod are true, and I believe they are, will the minister give favourable consideration to making a greater grazing area available at the Suffield research station?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: I will have to take that question as notice.



RED CHINA


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Barry Mather: Mr. Speaker, I have a question I should like to direct to the Minister of Trade and Commerce. As alleged by the Grain Import Company Limited of Vancouver, has the federal Department of Trade and Commerce declined to issue export permits for auto parts, including 100 per cent Canadian made auto parts, destined to the People's Republic of China? Further, is it true that in some cases when such permits were granted United States controlled firms in Canada declined to sell the goods?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. Before the minister answers I would point out that I do not see any particular urgency in this question. This is a question for the order paper.



INQUIRY AS TO NEGOTIATIONS WITH RED CHINA

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Jack McIntosh (Swift Current-Maple
Creek): I should like to address a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce. Has the delegation to red China been successful in negotiating any sales of Canadian wheat to that country? If so, how much and at what price?
Mitchell William Sharp: Negotiations are proceeding in the normal manner, and it will be some time before I will be able to make an announcement.



EUROPEAN COMMON MARKET-TARIFF INCREASE ON CHICKENS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. H. Horner (Acadia):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture. Because of the increase in tariff on broiler chickens from the United States entering the European common market, can the minister assure the house that similar tariff increases will not be made against agricultural producers in this country?


Harry William Hays: Mr. Speaker, I do not see the urgency of the question. I should like the hon. gentleman to put it on the order paper.



ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. R. W. Prittie (Burnaby-Richmond):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Justice relating to the one I asked him on Friday with regard to the F.L.Q. suspects in Quebec. I realize and understand the minister's reluctance to involve himself in the administration of justice in a province, but I want to ask him this question. Will he ask for an opinion to determine whether the actions taken under the coroners' act of the province of Quebec in holding suspects are not in contradiction of section 438 of the Criminal Code, which requires that arrested persons be brought before a magistrate within 24 hours if a magistrate is available and as soon as possible if one is not immediately available?


Hon. Lionel Chevrier (Minister of Justice):: Mr. Speaker, I understand that the act under which certain people have been detained in the province of Quebec is a provincial act; therefore it would seem to me that the bill of rights has no application to that act. Even if the bill of rights did apply to that act, I do not think the Minister of Justice sits in judgment on the matter. Even if the bill of rights did apply it would be up to the individual to proceed by way of habeas corpus, by way of a suit for damages for illegal detention or by way of a suit for damages for assault, but it is certainly not the prerogative of the Minister of Justice to give advice in a matter of this kind.


Robert William Prittie: May I correct the minister on one point. I did not refer to the bill of rights. I referred to the Criminal Code, section 438.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I am sorry, but I must interrupt the hon. member.
Inquiries of the Ministry HOUSE OF COMMONS



AVAILABILITY OF COPIES OF BILL C-72

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Colin Cameron (Nanaimo-Cowichan-The Islands):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Secretary of State in his capacity as house leader. Last Friday this house gave first reading to Bill No. C-72, an act respecting the economic council of Canada. On Saturday the Ottawa Citizen carried a very full story regarding the intentions of the government with respect to this bill and providing information that the Prime Minister did not provide in his speech to the house.
On Saturday I came up here to get my copy of the bill. I did not get it; it had not come in the mail. I came up here this morning expecting to get it, and it was not in the mail. I came into the chamber an hour before the house met this afternoon and it was not on my file. Yet it had been given to the press at least on Saturday if not on Friday. Has the minister any explanation he would like to give the house?


John Whitney Pickersgill: No, Mr. Speaker. I will be very glad to have inquiries made. I inquired at the table myself if copies would be available and was told that a few copies were available, and I suggested that the printing should proceed as quickly as possible. I regret very much that this should have occurred, and I shall make inquiries.



LABOUR RELATIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Harold E. Winch (Vancouver East):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Labour and I am sorry I was not able to give him notice. For some reason or other nobody was answering his telephone this morning. In view of the fact that the longshoremen's union in Vancouver is taking a strike vote tomorrow, and no one with any sense of responsibility wants to see a stoppage of work in this major seaport, can the minister tell us if his department is making any special endeavour to bring the employers and employees together in anticipation of reaching an amicable settlement of the dispute?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: Mr. Speaker, officers of the Department of Labour are in close touch with this situation on the west coast. My information varies somewhat from the information conveyed in the question of the hon. member. I will check our common information with respect

Inquiries of the Ministry to the taking of a strike vote, and when I have checked I may be able to give my hon. friend some more information as to the possible activities of the officers of the department in this situation.



AGRICULTURE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. S. J. Korchinski (Mackenzie):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Agriculture. In view of the conflicting reports, one stating that there is too much rain and the other that there is insufficient rain, and in view of the expressed intention of the government to live up to commitments, real or otherwise, entered into by the previous government, will the Minister of Agriculture say whether the government does not consider that it has a moral obligation to give an acreage payment at this time?


Harry William Hays: Mr. Speaker, it was my understanding that acreage payments were given just before elections. I can assure the hon. member that these things are being watched very closely by our department.


Hon. D. S. Harkness (Calgary North):: supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Is the Minister of Agriculture aware of the years in which acreage payments were made and, if so, would he give them to the house?



ALBERTA


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Eldon M. Woolliams (Bow River):: should like to direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture. Has the minister given any consideration to a recent request made by the western and eastern irrigation districts of southern Alberta for financial assistance under ARDA to help purchase new equipment and dig proper ditches to adequately irrigate the southern part of Alberta, now suffering from a serious drought?


Harry William Hays: There has been no request pass across my desk as yet.



CROP INSURANCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Eric Stefanson (Selkirk):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture. Has the minister had an opportunity to consider the request of the province of Manitoba relating to the Crop Insurance Act,
(Mr. MacEachen.l
and has he given approval to the Manitoba plan for the federal government to issue reinsurance?


Harry William Hays: Mr. Speaker, Manitoba does, of course, have a crop insurance plan. I shall have to take the question as notice and give a detailed answer later.
(Translation):



PROVISION OF FEED GRAIN FOR EASTERN FARMERS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Paul Martineau (Pontiac-Temisca-mingue):: Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the Minister of Agriculture a question. Could he tell the house what provisions the government proposes to make in order to help eastern farmers to acquire feed grain at reasonable prices?
(Text):


Harry William Hays: This is a matter of government policy which is now under study, and an announcement will be made at the appropriate time.



FINANCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Justice, notice of which I sent to him this morning. In view of the government's announcement that legislation will shortly be introduced to validate the taxation imposed by order in council last June 24, will the Minister of Justice take steps to have a revision made of the legal opinion given to the House of Commons last session, in a sessional paper laid on the table of the house, to the effect that the provisions of the surcharge on imports order were not inconsistent with the purposes and provisions of the Canadian Bill of Rights?


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, I am grateful to the hon. gentleman for sending me notice of his question. The answer is that section 3 of the Canadian Bill of Rights requires the Minister of Justice, in accordance with regulations, to examine draft regulations and bills introduced in the House of Commons in order to ascertain whether they are inconsistent with the bill of rights, and the minister is required to report any such inconsistency to the House of Commons.

Under the regulations, the bills and regulations are examined by the deputy minister and he attaches his certificate, as required by the regulations, that they have been examined in accordance with the provisions of the bill of rights. The certificate does not state whether or not they are inconsistent with the bill of rights. Any representations the deputy might have to make would be made to the minister for his consideration in forming his opinion. There was no report to the minister from the deputy minister on the bill of rights in connection with the surcharge order.
In the present case the certificate did not, as suggested by the question, indicate approval so far as the bill of rights was concerned; it merely stated that the surcharge order had been examined. This is a statement of fact, and there is therefore nothing to revise.


Stanley Howard Knowles: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Do I take it from what the minister says that the signature of the deputy minister of justice on these hundreds of proposed bills and proposed regulations really has no meaning at all?


Lionel Chevrier: I would not say it has no meaning at all. It has this meaning, that in so far as parliament is concerned there is no inconsistency in these bills or regulations. It is up to parliament to determine what the position may be. For instance, the Minister of Justice could not be expected to issue a certificate to parliament that a measure is consistent with the bill of rights. This would be a matter for parliament in the first instance, and for the courts in the last instance. What the Minister of Justice might reasonably be expected to do is draw to the attention of the house any provisions that, in his judgment, do offend the bill of rights. The house could then take such action as it sees fit.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, may I ask a further supplementary question. In view of the minister's statement that the signature of the deputy minister on this certificate means that there is nothing objectionable in the light of the bill of rights, does the minister not now think that the opinion implied in this case should be revised, in view of the uncertainty that has arisen about this order in council?


Lionel Chevrier: If that were revised then, I take it, the regulations under the act would have to be revised, and perhaps the act itself. The statement appended to the order in council, which I have here, reads, "Examined as required by the Canadian Bill of Rights," and that is made pursuant to the regulation. The
Inquiries of the Ministry regulations quite clearly state, in sections 4 and 5, what the authority of the deputy minister is under the circumstances.



POSSIBLE INCREASE IN GRAIN HANDLING CHARGES

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. E. Pascoe (Moose Jaw-Lake Centre):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture, which he will probably take as notice. I believe the question should be directed to him, although in the light of the triple shuffle of responsibility for agriculture I am not sure. Has the minister been informed of the meeting of the board of grain commissioners in Vancouver in the near future to consider a possible increase in elevator grain handling charges? Has his department any power to regulate these charges, any increase in which would be of great concern to prairie farmers?


Harry William Hays: I will take that question as notice.



STATEMENT AS TO QUOTAS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Mitchell Sharp (Minister of Trade and
Commerce): Mr. Speaker, at the last sitting of the house the hon. member for Lisgar asked me this question:
In view of his recent statement that an open quota on wheat would not be reached this crop year, could he inform the house how large a quota can be expected, and will it be equalized across western Canada?
My answer is that at the present time the Canadian wheat board is conducting a survey among the country elevator operators across western Canada designed to determine how much additional grain farmers wish to market prior to the end of the crop year. The results of this survey will be available and tabulated in about two weeks time. Until this has been done an estimate cannot be made of the quota level that will be reached by the end of the crop year.
Douglas Scott Harkness: May
I ask a supplementary question. How much elevator space is available to take in grain during this period?


Mitchell William Sharp: I am sorry, I do not carry the figures in my mind. I shall make inquiries, however.
(Translation):



LOTTERIES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the
84$

Inquiries of the Ministry Minister of Justice a question, following an answer he gave to a question of mine in the early days of this session.
Could the minister tell the house whether he has given consideration to the voluminous file on lotteries, in order to amend the Criminal Code if necessary?


Lionel Chevrier: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I did make a start in this respect. I am now studying the whole question carefully. I even read a resolution which was adopted by the Federation of Canadian Municipalities. From time to time I receive representations expressing divergent views, and I am carefully considering the matter.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary question-
(Text):


Mr. Speaker:: I have serious doubts about whether that question is in order. I suggest that it should be put on the order paper.



PENITENTIARIES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Eldon Mattison Woolliams: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Justice. In view of the serious unemployment problem in Drumheller valley, and in view of the statement that was made by a top civil servant in reference to penitentiaries, in which he was reported in the Calgary Herald as saying that the penitentiary would be built in 1964, may I ask if that is now a decision of this government?


Lionel Chevrier: No, Mr. Speaker, it is not. The decision originally taken was that it was not to be built until 1964-65. Since my hon. friend raised the question some time ago I did intend to speak to the commissioner about the matter. Unfortunately he has been in western Canada and only returned last night. I will have a discussion with him, and hope to be able to have a reply for the hon. member in due course.



HEALTH AND WELFARE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Barry Mather: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Health and Welfare, of which I have given her notice. In view of the minister's very praiseworthy press announcement over the week end that she will
[Mr. Pigeon.)

call a national conference on the relationship between cigarette smoking and cancer, I wonder if she could indicate at this time if the conference will be held in Ottawa and if it will be held this year.


Julia Verlyn (Judy) LaMarsh: I thank the hon. member for giving me notice of his question. In answer I would say it would be hoped such a conference when held would be held in Ottawa. As to the timing, this would depend first upon the decision of those who wish to attend. In any event I would hope it would be held before the end of this calendar year.



FORESTRY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John Robert (Jack) Nicholson: Mr. Speaker, on Friday last the hon. member for Vancouver East asked if I would advise the house as to whether any special consideration was being given-
-for aid to the provinces or the forest industry in the protection of the forest resources of Canada in general, and of British Columbia in particular, against the hazards of fire and pests.
I stated that in view of the general nature of the question I thought the answer would be a long one, since it involved ten provinces and more than one department of the federal government. I have prepared an answer and I would like to file it, but I think the hon. member would be interested to know that there was only one request for assistance to the federal government this year. That was in connection with a fire north of Maniwaki, Quebec, and in that case the armed services moved in quickly. It was a request for communications help, which was given readily.
So far as British Columbia is concerned, the fire hazard has shown improvement during the last few days, having dropped from high to moderate.


Hon. Gordon Churchill (Winnipeg South Centre):: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, just a few moments ago the Minister of Forestry talked about filing an answer. I am not clear what that meant, or what happened to it. Is it a long document?


John Robert (Jack) Nicholson: I should have said tabled rather than filed.


Mr. Speaker:: Does the house give unanimous consent to the minister to table the document?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I understand the minister merely meant to table the answer, to lay the answer on the table; so no problem arises.



NATIONAL DEFENCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Paul Theodore Hellyer: Mr. Speaker, last week the hon. member for Churchill asked a question of the Secretary of State for External Affairs with regard to U.S. rocket testing at Fort Churchill. Rocket launchings at the research range at Fort Churchill have only recently been resumed, following the restoration of research facilities destroyed by fire early in 1961. These launchings are conducted at Fort Churchill under an agreement made between the governments of Canada and the United States in 1960.
The experiments consist of two main types, as follows: (a) the launching of high altitude rockets to obtain measurements of the upper atmosphere. These research projects are designed and conducted by governmental research agencies and universities of Canada and the United States; and (b) the launching for test purposes of rockets being developed for use in upper atmosphere research. This is a Canadian program in entirety.
The construction and restoration program resulting from the fire is expected to be completed by midsummer, to accommodate a total of about 70 high altitude rockets to be launched in the period July 1, 1963 to June 30, 1964. This total includes six Canadian rockets to be launched for flight test purposes. It is expected that in future years operations will be on a similar scale.



INDUSTRY


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed, from Friday, June 7, consideration in committee of the following resolution-Mr. Pearson-Mr. Lamoureux in the chair:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure (a) to establish a department of industry to be presided over by a minister of industry who shall be appointed under the Great Seal of Canada, to authorize the appointment of a deputy minister by the governor in council and to provide for the appointment to the department on a temporary basis of persons having special knowledge of manufacturing industries to assist in the work of the department; (b) to provide for the establishment under the direction of the minister of an area development agency and to provide for the appointment of a commissioner and a deputy commissioner for area development; and (c) to make a consequential amendment to the Salaries Act to provide a salary for the minister.
The Chairman:: Shall the resolution carry?


George Clyde Nowlan: Mr. Chairman, on Friday afternoon we saw a great example of cooperation between the opposition parties and
10,	1983
Establishment of Industry Department the government in proceeding with legislation, and possibly because of the speed with which we were operating I spoke in more general terms than I otherwise would have in dealing with this specific resolution. Now, in the few minutes left to me perhaps I can pinpoint and bring into focus the remarks I made at that time.
We are dealing with a resolution which envisages the division of the Department of Trade and Commerce into two departments, one of which will be a department of industry and the other which may retain the name trade and commerce. The reason given for this proposal is the necessity of emphasizing the development of industry in Canada. I want to make it very plain, Mr. Chairman, that we of the official opposition are fully in accord with the government in stressing the importance of developing industry in every way, shape and form.
The other afternoon the Prime Minister referred to the employment which would flow from an increase in secondary industry. With that we are also fully in accord. There is no doubt that secondary industry must develop if we are going to provide the employment which the country requires, but I question the necessity of dividing the department into two compartments in order to place a greater emphasis on the development of industry.
I suggested on Friday, and I repeat now, that such a division is not necessary, and the justification for that stand lies in the record of what the Department of Trade and Commerce has done during the last few years in developing secondary industry. In the few minutes left to me I am not going to take time to put the figures on the record, showing the tremendous development which did take place over the last few years in the manufacture of cars and the increase in steel production. There was an increase in almost every facet of our industrial life, and that in itself is an answer to the argument that the department must be divided in order to achieve greater efficiency. In fact I suggest that this division will increase bureaucracy and reduce efficiency, rather than increase it.
It may well be that the name of the department should be changed from trade and commerce to trade and industry, or even industry and trade, because due recognition must be paid to the important part industry has to play in the development of our country. However I do not think that will be accomplished by putting trade and industry in two watertight compartments. As I asked the other day, where does industry stop and trade begin? If one reads the remarks of the

Establishment of Industry Department Prime Minister in introducing this resolution on Friday the answer to that question is found there.
As recorded at page 802 of Hansard for June 7 the Prime Minister referred to the fact that the resolution of our problems did not lie in an increase in protection, with which I agree entirely. I shall not quote him exactly but hon. members will find his remarks at pages 802 and 803 of Hansard, where he said that if industry were to develop it would be necessary to increase our trade, and that we would have to seek out markets in the new countries of the world. Certainly that is true. There is no use in manufacturing goods unless they are sold; and I suggest again, sir, that the arguments made by the Prime Minister on Friday afternoon in dealing at some length with markets around the world-Asia, Africa, South America; he mentioned them all-show a good reason why we should maintain trade and industry working together, in developing manufacturing on the one hand and selling on the other, rather than put them into two separate, watertight compartments.
What will we have after these measures are put through, presuming they are implemented? On Friday afternoon we passed a resolution setting up the economic council. This, as I think I said the other day, will come, presumably, judging from press reports I have read-and I think perhaps it is in the speech from the throne, although I am not sure of that. It is apparently the intention of the government to have this economic council come under the aegis, the care, the eye of the President of the Privy Council. This is the body which is going to give advice on the development of the economy of this country; it will be done under the President of the Privy Council.
If the legislation based on this resolution is adopted we will have a minister of industry on the one side of the clock, if you like; we will have a minister of trade on the other side, and down at the bottom we will have the Minister of Finance who is responsible for the fiscal and financial policies of this country. If that is not a cumbersome practice to follow, Mr. Chairman, I would like to know what is. I do not know how we will get efficiency in the development of trade and commerce and the economic development of this country when we have not only a bifocal, but something like the Irishman's clock. When asked how it operated, because no one could understand it, the Irishman said, "When the hands point at nine and the clock strikes seven, then I know it will be half past eleven". That is roughly the Irishman's clock which is being created by this


government in its attempt to streamline and develop the economy of this country.
One could go on at length with that matter, Mr. Chairman, but I do not propose to do so. I want to refer to one other matter in this connection. The Prime Minister said this is going to be a merger, a common law marriage or alliance of some kind, between the new department of industry and the old Department of Defence Production. We will have the minister who is now responsible for the Department of Defence Production being responsible not only for that but for the department of industry also. Then off in one corner, when he gets time to look at it, I take it we are going to have an organization for the development of areas where unemployment exists. We are going to have the minister looking after that also. I wonder just how much time the Minister of Defence Production is going to have to give to this emerging, most important department of industry.
We listened to the Minister of Defence Production when he came back from Washington the other day. I noticed that he almost had a prayer on his lips when he was asked whether he thought sales of defence equipment to the United States could increase. I think he dealt with the matter frankly and said there would be difficulties in that connection. He also pointed out that there would have to be increased purchases from the United States if increased sales were to take place, because Canada is not the only country in the world which from time to time has suffered or is suffering from a balance of payments problem. He has a real problem in that connection, and I think there will be some anxiety on the part of those who were possibly looking forward to the creation of a department of industry, as to which is going to be the tail and which is going to be the dog in the new set-up which is envisioned in this measure. We not only have the four facets of it, but we have sleeping under the same blanket, somehow or other, an uneasy alliance. The Department of Defence Production and the problems which can arise I think are going to be such that one cannot expect too much development in the department of industry.
These are matters which, as I said, are the responsibility of the government. As far as we of the opposition are concerned, naturally we are waiting for the bill. When the bill is before us we can discuss its terms at greater length and see what the government has in mind with respect to it, and we will then be in a position to decide what action we shall take clause by clause or on the bill as a whole. I simply repeat, Mr. Chairman, that I do not think this will promote the efficiency of the department and it will not accomplish

the very laudable ends which the Prime Minister specified in his speech. I am wondering how many of these things were born during the times of stress and strain when one was flitting from one place to another during an election campaign and it was necessary or thought advisable to make pledges which now, in the cold light of reason, may seem rather awkward or cumbersome to carry out. If that should be the case, I would suggest to the government that they reconsider this measure before they go further with it.


Mr. Leboe:: Mr. Chairman, the remarks of the genial Prime Minister prompt me to rise in my place and speak this afternoon on this resolution, chiefly because I differ greatly with him in his approach to the basic problem, which is unemployment. I refer to unemployment because of the remarks of the Prime Minister to which I should like to refer in order to point out exactly what 1 mean. As reported at page 802 of Hansard he said this:
What. .. are to be the sources of the new wealth and employment which Canada needs? Where are we going to provide the jobs for the 250,000 young people by which our labour force is going to increase in each of the next few years?
I agree with the Prime Minister that this is a problem, but I am saying that I do not agree with the approach to the problem and the purpose of industry as outlined by his remarks. Further on he said:
Where will we find, in addition, the new jobs that are needed to keep pace with automation and other technological changes-
Then further on:
-manufacturing industry, secondary industry, is the source from which the new wealth and the new employment must largely come.
These statements indicate to me that the purpose behind this new ministry is to get industry going for the providing of jobs. I do not think that is the purpose of industry. The purpose of industry, to my mind, is solely to produce goods and provide services. To that end industry is bent to use all the means at its disposal in order to produce the greatest amount of goods and services at the least cost; in other words, there is keen competition. I notice, too, that the Prime Minister has related the bringing in of this resolution to establish a ministry of trade with the measure relating to the Canadian economic council which was previously passed by this house. I think if he had related it to the proposed municipal development fund in connection with providing job opportunities we would be far, far in advance of where we will be if we take the stand the Prime Minister has taken here in introducing a measure for the establishment of this new ministry. I find that in following the reasoning of the
Establishment of Industry Department Prime Minister throughout he has stepped very gingerly into the political field of relations between the provinces and the federal government when he says that this will in no way lessen or interfere with provincial responsibilities, and the new federal department will not in any way create new federal responsibilities.
In this connection I should like to suggest to the Prime Minister that if his thinking in connection with this ministry were related to the municipal development fund, we would be getting down to a solid foundation from which we could build. To my mind the business of expecting industry to provide jobs by the production of goods and services, which may or may not be sold, is a horse and buggy way of trying to solve a very, very acute problem. I believe we must get to the root of this problem. We must bring about employment in such a way that the price of the product does not include the cost of creating these new opportunities. What better way could be found of doing this than through a municipal development fund and the public works which would be embarked on as this fund begins to operate?
I hope that during the committee stage some consideration will be given to where this money is coming from, but I shall not deal with that aspect of the subject now. The jobs which will be created as a result of the use of the municipal development fund will create, in turn, a market for goods and services where there is no market today. Putting men to work will create a market, and industry will respond, as it always has responded to new markets. As far as Canada is concerned, there is no such thing as a foreign market. There is only trade. We send something out of Canada, and countries abroad send something back. We have nothing in the way of a market, in reality. If, then, our market is a domestic market, we have to develop that market here. This fund will create a climate in which industry can make progress. Then industry, itself, in meeting the demands of the market, will be able to employ more people who will, in turn, require more goods and services-a snowball effect which will, as it develops, solve to a great extent the problem of unemployment, possibly even to the extent suggested by the Prime Minister, by bringing about a situation in which we can encourage more people to enter Canada from countries outside by way of a revived immigration program. We need such a development badly in Canada today, because a greater population would reduce the per capita cost of many large scale undertakings including, for example, the railways. One of our problems in Canada today is that we have two railways across the length and

Establishment of Industry Department breadth of the country and a sparse population to support their operation. The result is a high charge falling on the individual. In addition, an increase in our population, both naturally and as a result of increased immigration, would stimulate the production of goods and services.
Today we face a serious situation in the distressed areas of Canada. The thought which is embodied in this legislation is, apparently, that such areas will become the targets, as it were, of the new ministry which is to be created along with the economic council. I say that the increased population which will result if we start at the right place and follow correct policies will bring about a much improved situation as far as these depressed areas are concerned. This will come about automatically because of the new markets which will spring up in the distressed areas as a result of the growth in the population.
I should like to leave this thought with the Prime Minister, that we should seriously consider bringing about, through the municipal development fund, a situation in which an expansion in industry would come about naturally on the basis of supply and demand. I hope that before the present debate is over other hon. members will spend some time discussing this particular point, because I believe that the provision of incentives to industry to produce goods as a means of producing jobs is not the way to solve this problem. The answer lies in creating, through financial and other means, a climate in which the people of Canada can buy back what they themselves produce. I think the answer lies in the people's ability to buy back their own production. If we could bring such a situation about, I am sure a far better and sounder economy would be ours.


Mr. Scott:: In speaking to the resolution at this stage I should like to say that we have examined the resolution and the Prime Minister's speech in some detail. While we are anxious to support any measures which will be beneficial to industry in Canada generally, both the resolution and the speech itself raise problems in our minds, and we should like to put forward certain questions in the hope that the government might elaborate on these points when the bill comes up for second reading. We do not wish to spend very much time on the resolution; we want to have the bill before us so that we may examine it in detail.
The first question I wish to put to the government is this: what exactly is being created by this resolution? Is it another government department with the usual limited statutory authority, or is the government

endeavouring to create a planning instrument designed to carry out the program and advice of the economic council of Canada? Examination of the Prime Minister's speech on this subject does not make this distinction clear. As reported on page 801 of Hansard, the right hon. gentleman said:
The point and purpose of the department of industry which it is proposed to set up will be to assist in transmitting these various ideas into effective action.
He was referring to the ideas of the economic council. Then, further on, as reported on page 802, he said:
The bill... is one to create a department which will be for the manufacturing industry what the Department of Agriculture is for farmers.
With respect, it seems to me one cannot have both. If we are creating another department of government it is one which will surely be equal with the other departments, without power to encroach upon the preserves of those other departments or in any way to co-ordinate the work of such important ministries as those of trade and commerce, labour and finance. On the other hand, if what we are attempting to create is a planning agency to carry out the programs and intentions of the economic council, surely this new department will need the very powers I have mentioned-power to co-ordinate the work of other departments, to review their activities and draw those activities together.
It seems to me, then, that it is essential at this stage to know whether we are merely creating another department of government or whether we are attempting, as the Prime Minister seemed to suggest, to create an agency which would put into effective action the programs and policy of the economic council. If we are, in fact, creating an agency to carry out the ideas of that council, how is the department going to put into practice the advice of that council? Again, if we examine the speech made by the Prime Minister on the resolution, there is no definite indication of how this desirable end will be brought about. The right hon. gentleman's speech contained many phrases such as "to maintain close and direct contact with industry" and "to make sure that industry gets service from the government". There is this further expression: "a department to which manufacturers can come to find out what is going on, to get advice and help in their problems", and this further one: "to provide a focal point". To take these phrases together seems to indicate that you are building essentially an advisory assistance bureau chiefly concerned with making information available to industry in this country and hoping it will act upon your recommendations. Then at another point in his speech in referring to the department of

industry the Prime Minister goes on to say- and this to me is the more interesting part- that it will be concerned with translating into specifics the more general ideas about economic growth generated in the economic council. Then at another point he said that it will be concerned with the building rather than the blueprints of the expanding economy.
I should like to ask the government, what powers is this agency to have so that it can co-ordinate the work of the various departments? If it is going to carry out the views and ideas of the economic council, what will be its relationship to, and power over, such agencies as the economic council, the Atlantic development board, the municipal loan fund, the proposed Canadian development corporation, the national productivity council, other departments of government and crown agencies? If it is going to have any degree of responsibility for the co-ordination of all of these, as it would have to do, to carry out any sort of economic plan, we should like to hear on second reading what proposed powers this agency is to receive from the government.
Mr. Chairman, the resolution and the speech accompanying it made special mention of the need to rely on manufacturing and secondary industry as our future source of growth of jobs. Does this mean that it will not concern itself with the wide area of the service industries which are the agencies in and the area of our economy which are growing in employment and are providing a large portion of our present jobs? We should like to know the relationship of this department to the whole service industry and the jobs it provides. We should also like to know what is the real purpose of this department. If its real purpose is to carry out the advice of the planning council, it will inevitably be driven into activity in the following fields: As I said, the co-ordination of all government departments; the co-ordination of other planning agencies and boards; the co-ordination of the work of our provincial and regional planning boards; the co-ordination of crown corporations; and, more importantly, the coordination of private industrial plans and controls over the amount and direction of private investment. We should like to know what is envisaged for this department of industry in these very important fields.
The reason why these questions should be answered, it seems to me, is in reference to the speech of the Prime Minister, when he discussed the objects of this department. As reported on page 803 of Hansard, he said:
Canada's need is for industries that will thrive in the modern world, industries that will fit into the new patterns of international trade which are now emerging and to which we will have to adapt ourselves.
Our special need in this country-and this applies to other highly developed countries-is to create
10, 1963	851
Establishment of Industry Department and expand the more sophisticated, the more complicated, if you like, kinds of industry producing goods which we both need ourselves and which we can sell to other countries.
Finally he said:
So the aim of the department we propose will not be to shelter or shore up weak, protected enterprises but to encourage and build up economic industries and to help industries adapt themselves-
Mr. Chairman, if taken literally that involves a very far reaching change in the industrial picture in Canada.
How is this department to do this? Suppose it does decide that there is a genuine need for a shift in investment from one industry to another, how is it going to accomplish this? What techniques and powers are going to be placed at its disposal? We know the tax incentives, while they have some value, are somewhat limited because of the reserves many of our Canadian industries have built up, which to some extent cushion them against this. Can we expect a program of adjustment and assistance in the event that this department decides to shift investment from one major sector to another? What advice about financial aid does it envisage giving to industries in this country?
Another question we would like to pose is: If this is just another government department, what is its purpose and what are its real objectives? It seems to me, with respect, that these answers are not adequately spelled out in the resolution or in the speech accompanying it. Is its object to increase the aggregate of investment and production? Is it to reduce imports and encourage the production of Canadian goods now imported? Is it to shift investment and production from certain channels to other channels in accordance with one over-all plan? The speech talks about an industry-by-industry study. What happens to these studies, once they are completed? What powers is the department going to have to ensure that they are actually implemented, once these studies have been made? The speech talks about building up economic industries rather than shoring up weak and protected ones. We should like to know how this is to be done and what powers over the shifting of investment are going to be made available to this new agency.
On the whole, in examining the presentation to date, Mr. Chairman, it seems that, despite the contradictions, this is intended to be a government department alone which will be investigatory in nature and advisory in character. If this is so, it seems to me that we are developing the worst of all possible worlds. Because we already have a multiplicity of boards and bodies, fact-gathering agencies and economy forecasting organizations in this country, and merely to add to
852	HOUSE OF
Establishment of Industry Department them another such agency without making some provision for this agency to co-ordinate the work of other government departments, other crown agencies and planning boards, is adding another voice to all those now crying out. What is really needed is some agency to draw together all of these organizations and to come up with a complete blueprint and then to have an agency with the machinery for seeing that this blueprint is carried out.
Mr. Chairman, in sitting down may I just re-emphasize our participation at this stage is largely for purposes of clarification. We should like to know what we are creating, whether just a government department or some agency to carry out the plans and progress of the economic council. What is it expected really to do, and what powers is it going to have, so that it can adequately carry out the responsibilities given to it? We emphasize again that it cannot do both. If you are going to have a government department, then you will have your statutory limitation on your activity, with no power to mix into other government departments. If, as indicated in the speech, this is an agency to carry out the plans of the economic council, then it will need an entirely different set of powers. Neither is such power indicated in the speech, nor is it made clear in the resolution. Therefore we hope that when this bill comes up for second reading we may have some answers to the problems I have mentioned today, so that we will be in a much better position to analyse it dhd give it the attention it merits, and to make a decision upon it.


Mr. Dinsdale:: Mr. Chairman, this resolution has a great deal of personal interest to me because one of the first private members' resolutions that I presented when I became a member of this house was concerned with the urgent necessity of the federal government taking some action which would encourage the diversification and the decentralization of industry. It seems to me that the resolution to set up a department of industry at present before the committee is going to have as its major function those purposes which we used to talk about back at the beginning of the decade of the fifties. At that time the government of the day was not very much concerned about the need for urgent action on these matters and it is somewhat encouraging to see that at this late date there is recognition that we do have fundamental problems with regard to scattering our industrial potential across the nation, and also encouraging its diversification.
As the Prime Minister indicated in introducing the resolution the other day, actually much of the action that has been needed in

this connection since world war II has already been taken and most of the machinery is already present within the various departments of government. As far as I can see from the very information that has been put before the committee, the new proposal is designed to co-ordinate the machinery already existing in the Department of Trade and Commerce, the Department of Defence Production and the Department of Finance. I immediately raise this question: Is the Department of Defence Production the one that is best suited to meet the problems that this house and the country have been dealing with over the past 15 to 20 years? As a matter of fact, the record of the Department of Defence Production in this regard has not been a very encouraging one in the past. One of the unfortunate developments that took place in the early 1950's was the elimination in the year 1953 of the small defence industry branch. Just at the time when provincial governments in particular were becoming concerned about the increasing concentration of industry in the two large provinces this action was taken by the Department of Defence Production, which has now been chosen as the most appropriate department to carry forward the very important functions of decentralization and diversification.
It was quite logical in those days to encourage the activities of a small defence industry branch because at that time industry in Canada was very largely organized around the defence needs of the nation. World war I and world war II were the two periods when Canada's industrial potential grew apace. At the end of world war II it was quite obvious that our industrial potential was very closely geared to the defence needs that had emerged during the crisis of the second world war, and our industry continued in this orientation after the end of world war II.
I think very serious thought should be given by the government with respect to whether the Department of Defence Production is the most appropriate department to carry out these important functions. The Prime Minister made the statement the other day that much of the machinery is already in operation. I agree with him completely that this is quite true. A brief recital of some of the things that have taken place in the past six years, for example, is indicative of this point. Within the Department of Trade and Commerce there has been an entirely new area of activity to cope with the important functions of diversifying and decentralizing industry. A small business branch was established, for example, and the industrial development bank was expanded. Here are two functions that are scattered in separate
IMr. Scott.]

departments, one in trade and commerce and the other in the Department of Finance.
Again, the Farm Credit Corporation has expanded its activities in the area of diversifying our economy. I would refer too, to the Agricultural Rehabilitation and Development Act because ARDA, in addition to dealing with problems of fundamental changes in agriculture, is also designed to assist the Canadian economy to adapt to the rapid change toward an industrial and urbanized community. The very successful series of trade conferences that have been held in Canada during recent years have also made a tremendous contribution in dealing with one of the difficult areas of Canadian industrial potential, namely, a market for our expanding industrial production. The productivity council has fulfilled an excellent function. It is only nicely getting under way at this time, and it was designed to deal with two of our basic problems, the increasing of the productivity of Canadian industry and the matter of co-ordination between the various sectors of the Canadian economy. As I understand the situation, the productivity council will be superseded by the new economic council, and there is some question whether this is a wise development.
The very fact that so much of the machinery has been established within various branches of government raises the query whether it is necessary at this time to establish a separate department of industry. Is the problem not one more of intragovernmental co-operation and co-ordination of facilities and programs already operating, rather than the establishment of another separate department, particularly when the Department of Defence Production is to handle these functions? May I call it five o'clock, Mr. Chairman?


Lucien Lamoureux: It being five o'clock it is my duty to leave the chair in order that the house may proceed to the consideration of private members' business pursuant to section 3 of standing order 15.
Progress reported.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Order. It being five o'clock the house will now proceed to the consideration of private members' business as listed on today's order paper, namely notices of motions.



ARTS, LETTERS AND SCIENCES CANADIAN UNIVERSITY SERVICE OVERSEAS   REQUEST FOR FINANCIAL SUPPORT

Mr.  R. Gordon L. Fairweather@Royal: That, in the opinion of this house, the government should give consideration to the desirability of
University Service Overseas
supporting financially the Canadian university service overseas which helps young Canadians to go abroad to share their skills, training and humanity in those countries where such help is needed.
He said: Mr. Speaker, I was assisted, in phrasing my motion, although I must admit perhaps unknown to the person involved, by the hon. member for Rosedale (Mr. Macdonald). I phrased the motion in a manner which I felt would be acceptable to the government. The proposal is that the government consider, if it is desirable, giving financial support to the Canadian university service overseas. As is sometimes the habit in our neighbouring country to the south, perhaps more imaginative names are used in connection with projects of this sort. Of course, the name that has been used in the United States is "peace corps". The scheme in that country is much more government oriented, if I may use that phrase, than this motion would propose.
I have no exaggerated or grandiose sums of money in mind. I do suggest that $100,000 spent by the government in helping university students serve in other countries would be returned, if money must be returned, manyfold in good will and better understanding. I think, as is the case in so many instances with governments, such assistance would be helpful to the wider development of the giver as well as those receiving the benefit. It seems that with government today we must exercise some judgment as to priorities. I am a believer in priority. It seems to me that CUSO is an example of a service which is entitled to a priority, if any are, in so far as government financial assistance is concerned.
Perhaps we would have to say that $100,000 is an infinitesimal amount in relation to actual federal spending. I believe the house is entitled to an explanation of CUSO and what it is attempting to do. I can do no better than to quote from this information bulletin. It is interesting to note that CUSO was formed on June 6, 1961. The full title is Canadian university service overseas. It was established as a national co-ordinating agency to develop and promote schemes for sending Canadians to serve overseas. The initiative for the establishment of this body came from Canadian universities and several national organizations. CUSO works closely with national and local organizations in Canada and provides liaison with government international organizations and other agencies abroad.
Its functions have been defined in the following terms:
(a)	To initiate and operate, either alone or in co-operation with other organizations, schemes that will enable suitably qualified graduates, normally

University Service Overseas resident in Canada, to serve in countries overseas that have indicated their readiness to receive such persons;
(b)	To solicit and administer funds to cover the costs both of such schemes and of any activities ancillary thereto;
(c)	To assist, in such ways as the service may from time to time determine, other agencies which may be engaged in schemes of a similar nature.
CUSO is a means of providing opportunities for Canadians to serve abroad in conditions similar to those under which persons in the host countries also serve their fellow citizens. The organization hopes the scheme will promote greater understanding among the participants and serve as a gesture of international good will and co-operation. Graduates will only be sent abroad in response to specific requests for their services by governments and other appropriate agencies. They will not go as experts but as junior personnel who serve on a basis of equality with those with whom they live and work.
The need for funds is underlined by the fact that this year there are only sufficient funds available to send a fraction of the volunteers. I feel that this speaks well for Canadians in universities. As we have come to expect from young Canadians, the number of volunteers is far greater than the funds available to send them abroad.
A motion somewhat similar to the one being considered today was debated in this house on December 10. I think it is interesting to reread the debate. The proposal then was that the government establish a Canadian youth service, a government-sponsored scheme, to enable young Canadians to go abroad. I was struck by an observation of the hon. member for Rosedale during that debate. He properly pointed out that rather than duplicate existing services, his specific, and he said specific, recommendation was that the federal government give assistance to the CUSO program by way of grants. I reread his words over the week end and I take some comfort from them. If I can interpret his words, and perhaps this is dangerous, I assume he meant that the government should look favourably upon assisting CUSO, an established organization. The hon. member who made this very sensible recommendation is now parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Justice and, of course, is in a position to influence the government to accept this recommendation. This makes me much more hopeful that the motion will have widespread approval from members on all sides of the house.
The government, after all, is in no way committed by accepting the motion, because the motion merely requests that consideration be given to the desirability of granting

financial support. Rather than have the hon. member quote himself, which is a habit all too prevalent in parliaments in this and other countries, I should like the privilege of quoting him. I refer to Hansard for December 10, 1962, page 2506, where I find these words:
While I support the general principle of the resolution my specific recommendation would be that the federal government should give assistance to this program by way of grants to existing organizations. Second, I think the federal government to the greatest degree within its power should through its own facilities publicize both the availability of these services and the nature of the work that is done. The qualification which I would have regarding creating an independent government authority to administer this program is that I feel the universities should continue to be autonomous within this field and should administer the program.
If I could interpolate here, I would say I could not agree with the hon. member more.
The university faculties and students are in a better position to judge the applicants coming forward, and what is more, by having it in the hands of the universities you take away any suggestion of government interference and control which in this country might tend to discourage private contribution to the fund,-
By the way, Mr. Speaker, private contributions to the fund are being solicited at present and I believe those contributions, plus a generous government grant, would make it possible for this large number of Canadian university students to proceed overseas.
I have restrained myself from making a very lengthy speech because I hope the motion will receive general approval and that we can go on to other things. I sincerely ask the support of all hon. members of the house for it.


Mr. D. S. Macdonald (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Justice):: Mr. Speaker, I rise to assure both the hon. member for Royal (Mr. Fairweather) and the house generally that the views I expressed on December 10, 1962, continue to be my personal views, and that I shall continue to support the objectives which I set forth at that time. I congratulate the hon. member upon introducing this motion. I may say it is a matter of some delight to me to know that I succeeded in making at least one convert.
Following the suggestion made by the hon. member, I do not wish to delay consideration of this motion further and merely reiterate that I remain in favour of the objectives which I set forth last year.


Mr. Arnold Webster (Vancouver-Kingsway):: Mr. Speaker, I rise to present the views held by the New Democratic party with regard to this resolution and the desirability of supporting financially the Canadian university service overseas. I suggest it is important we give thought to the image that is created

by Canadians wherever they go outside Canada. No matter where they went in two world wars our men gave a very fine impression of Canada, which even today is reflected in many of the agencies of the United Nations.
Mr. Speaker, if you were to go to New York and mingle with the representatives of the United Nations you would be very proud of the record of Canada in all international areas. Likewise, if you were to go to the International Labour Organization in Geneva and to the UNESCO organization in Paris you would get the same impression that, generally speaking, people throughout the world think well of Canada. One reason for this is that people do not think of us as an aggressive nation but as a nation prepared, within the limits of its capabilities, to offer assistance in one way or another to people in need.
At the present time there are many teachers in Europe serving the families of our men overseas and giving a good impression wherever they go. Here in Canada we know the great benefits which come from the commonwealth exchange of teachers and students. Several thousand commonwealth students are scattered across our country, from the Atlantic to the Pacific, attending Canadian universities. They benefit from life in Canada, but so also do we. I have had occasion to associate to some extent with overseas university students here in Canada, and it is a stimulating experience to meet them and discuss their problems from their points of view.
I suggest we should give our support to this motion as a peace project because the promotion of peace falls into various categories. We mostly think of defence arrangements, but that is only one way in which we can work for peace. Another way is to keep our own house in order so that when people think of Canada they think of a strong nation which gives fair treatment to everybody. Another way we can work for peace is by doing the very thing which the Canadian university service overseas organization is prepared to do, to provide a variety of services to people who are in need.
I am very happy to say, Mr. Speaker, that the New Democratic party urges support of this motion as a practical contribution to peace throughout the world.
(Translation):


Mr. Gerard Girouard (Labelle):: A few words only, Mr. Speaker, to congratulate the hon. member for Royal (Mr. Fairweather) for submitting such a motion to give assistance to Canadian students abroad. I believe we should spend a few minutes to consider this project, which in my opinion is more im-
University Service Overseas
portant, both for friendly relations in the world and for some agreements within NATO or the U.N.
It is true that if we want to check international communism, we must prove that in a democratic country though a capitalistic one, it is possible to seek the full development of human personality.
In the English version of the motion we read: "Where such help is needed." However, I prefer the French where we read: "un service dont on a besoin".
I noticed that many foreign teachers are now teaching in our universities, they are appreciated both in the province of Quebec and the rest of Canada. It is not because of their education, or of their academic training but mainly because of the universality of their knowledge which they are dispensing.
I believe that our students who spend some time abroad will bring back more on their return than we will have invested in their education.
This is why, Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to support this motion.
(Text):


Mr. Reg Cantelon (Kindersley):: Mr. Speaker, it hardly seems necessary for me to stand up and support this motion as all hon. members who have spoken so far have supported it. However I would like to add my little contribution and perhaps a few more details might be helpful to some hon. members who are not familiar with the scheme.
In the first instance its purpose is to help those countries, which we would consider not so developed as ours, to have the assistance of people who are experts in certain lines. In the main these are teachers. Out of the 78 persons who have been sent to give this assistance during the last two years some 62 were teachers. These people only go to countries who ask for their help. They do not go unless definite requests are received for their services, and they live on the same salary levels and under the same living conditions as the people they are helping. This is particularly worthy of note because, in doing so, they do what the hon. member for Vancouver-Kingsway (Mr. Webster) suggested, namely they convince these people they are anxious to help them and give all the types of assistance we can possibly provide.
They go as junior experts, if we might call them that, and Canada is uniquely qualified to provide these services. Our historical background is one of the reasons why we are so qualified. We have a colonial background and most of the countries to which our people go realize this, so they feel kinship towards

University Service Overseas our junior experts. Then, too, we are fortunate in having two main races in Canada, and a great many French speaking people are required. In fact a substantial proportion of the people who go abroad to give these services are French speaking Canadians. I think too, that because we are the kind of country we are, our people who provide these services can do so in a proper spirit of humility. I think they lack the extreme nationalistic viewpoint which is noticeable in the nationals of some great nations, and consequently I think they are better received.
Last night at 10.30 the C.B.C. presented an excellent program showing the progress that has been made in many of these countries- countries such as India, Indonesia, the country of the Incas, and so on. It showed the progress that is being made in these countries in conquering man's main enemy, hunger. These people suffer not only from having too large a population, but also from a great ignorance of just how to attack their problem. It was evident in that program that this was the real attack being made, an attempt to instruct them in order that they could conquer their own difficulties. I think hon. members will agree with me that this is the proper way in which to attack the problem, by a program of self-help; in other words, show them how and let them work out their own solution. This the program certainly made evident.
This is what CUSO is trying to do. It is trying to send people out who will help to bring an end to this ignorance. It is trying to bring the benefits of education to those who need it far more than we do. Some other organizations also realize this need. In particular I would mention the Canadian Teachers' Federation, which is doing what it can along the same line. It expects to send some 12 to 15 teachers away this year to do exactly the same thing CUSO is doing. President Kennedy said recently that the real division in the world today was not between east and west but was primarily between the rich and the poor. Very probably what he had in mind was that even if the so-called cold war was brought to an end, we would still be faced with world conflict between the "haves" and the "have nots". It is very encouraging to see that we are perhaps a little closer to a solution of the cold war because of the news we heard this morning, that President Kennedy, Mr. Khrushchev and Mr. Macmillan are to meet soon.
We have all heard the argument that three quarters of the world's population go to bed hungry every night. If we can, by a small grant-I think the suggested sum of $100,000 is certainly a small grant for a country such as ours-in some small measure convince these


people that we are willing to do our part to' help them conquer this great handicap of hunger, it will bear very, very good fruit int the future. Also, an intelligent view of this question should convince us that there is an imperative need for Canada to develop the closest and friendliest relations with each of these countries. Our students will certainly do this for us while they are in these other countries, and on their return I am quite convinced they will have a very great levelling effect on the mass of public opinion in Canada,, which I think is a very desirable thing. Canadians generally are a sympathetic and considerate people and I am sure they will want their government to give what assistance it can to countries which in this way are asking, for our assistance.
Miss Pauline Jewel! (Northumberland): Mr. Speaker, like the hon. member whose motion this is and the speakers who have preceded me, I too am in favour of and sympathetic to CUSO. As the hon. member for Kindersley (Mr. Cantelon) said, this organization brings to its work a very marked degree of humility, having anything but the sort of "do good" attitude that so many of us deplore in so many so-called charitable activities. The young people involved in CUSO, as the hon. member for Royal (Mr. Fairweather) noted, go out as junior personnel and serve on a basis of equality with those with whom they will live and work. They are not necessarily full-blown experts; they are young university graduates. I think the average age of the group now in the field is about 24. They have not a great deal of expertise, but they have the one thing that matters most, a great desire to serve, a great desire to do something helpful and useful in the world either at home or abroad. They are particularly concerned with going abroad because, as we all well know, it is in the so-called "have not" or less developed nations of the world that help is particularly needed. Most of them, I understand, went as teachers in 1961 and 1962, although there have also been nurses and doctors, as well as people without any formal training at all. They live in the communities to which they go under conditions on a par with those of the people there, and I understand that they go alone to these communities. Unlike the United States peace corps, where they go in pairs, under CUSO the young people go alone into the communities and in this way become even more intimately and closely involved. It is therefore an organization which I should think it would be almost impossible for anyone in this house, or indeed anywhere, not to look upon very favourably and with understanding.
The difficulty with which CUSO is faced, as the hon. member for Royal pointed out, is a financial one. Unfortunately this is a difficulty

laced by the government of Canada as well. CUSO is now undertaking, I believe, a drive for funds of around $185,000. This drive has been going on since about February or March of this year, and to date I believe they have got about $90,000 to $100,000. This has been entirely from private sources. As was pointed out, our peace corps, our CUSO, is quite different from the United States peace corps in that it is a private, not a government, organization. It is privately financed and organized. The hope is to attain the objective of $185,000. To the best of my knowledge CUSO itself has not asked for government assistance to help it attain this figure. I understand from them and from the Canadian universities federation, under whose administrative wing CUSO operates, that they may well in a few months' time be approaching the government for financial help. From my conversations with the persons involved in CUSO-and of course I have had many in the past, having been as you know, Mr. Speaker, on a university staff-my understanding is that they would like, if possible, to derive their funds from private sources. If, however, it becomes absolutely out of the question to raise the needed funds in this way, I have no doubt that they will be coming to the government and in particular to the minister of external affairs (Mr. Martin), for help.
I should like to say here that the minister of external affairs has at his side someone who might be even more influential in securing help for CUSO than the hon. member for Royal or, if I may so, even the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Justice (Mr. Macdonald) -


Mr. Fairweaiher:: I know he would never take my advice.


Miss Jeweii:: -or myself. I am referring to Duncan Edmonds, who was a former colleague of mine at Carleton University and is now special assistant to the Secretary of State for External Affairs (Mr. Martin). Mr. Edmonds has been very active in CUSO activities. I do not know that he is a graduate of CUSO, but I know that last summer he was a graduate of Crossroads Africa. He is extremely enthusiastic and I know he will do his best when the time comes for us, as I am sure it will, to put a strong case forward on this matter. I am sure the Secretary of State for External Affairs (Mr. Martin) is himself well aware of the problem, and, even though he has not been formally asked to do so, has already considered the kind of straits CUSO may get into if, for one reason or another, the campaign is not successful, say, by September.
For all I think very highly of CUSO, as, I am sure, do other hon. members here, it is important for us to keep in mind a great
University Service Overseas many other volunteer agencies and private societies which work in the external aid field. I was amazed to discover how many there are and the variety of tasks they undertake. There are, of course, the church groups of all denominations which have, I suppose, been in the field the longest. There are private societies which collect books, clothing and medicine for shipment to Asia and Africa, paying all expenses, including transportation. The Canadian Teachers' Federation will send abroad this year between 18 and 20 secondary schoolteachers, all costs being met out of funds collected by Canadian teachers in the various provinces. The alliance of hospital auxiliaries has been operating on funds contributed across Canada, and this organization has been supplying medical equipment to the developing nations. It also offers some modest scholarships in Canada, and ships overseas thousands of copies of its publications. Then there is the African students foundation which is one of my own favourites. The foundation has close to 100 students studying in Canadian universities'-students from Africa brought to Canada to study with the help of funds raised entirely by this organization. Carrying on similar work is Les Amites Quebec-Afrique.
In all, there are between 70 and 90 organizations engaged in the external aid field in some way or other, and to the best of my knowledge the only ones which now get aid from the Canadian government are the Canadian Red Cross Society and the United Nations Association. It therefore will, undoubtedly, become a matter of some importance to the government whether it should select CUSO, specifically, as an organization to be helped or whether consideration should be given on a broader scale to the needs of other organizations such as, for example, the African students foundation.
I think this question will come to the attention of the government more forcefully this year than ever before because of a new development which is taking place. To be more precise, it is taking place next Monday, June 17, I think, in Ottawa-a meeting of representatives of all these private societies and organizations, including CUSO. This will be the first meeting of what is called the national committee on Canada's participation in social development abroad. It is being held under the auspices of the overseas institute of Canada and its purpose is to find out what agencies there are in the field of external aid, what they are doing, what they feel should be done, and what kind of help they need. In addition, the committee will be considering how to raise funds, whether some ideas or assistance could be given in helping to raise funds and, generally, the most effective ways

University Service Overseas of tackling the problem of world wide distress, both by private agencies and by government. The government will, I am sure, send an observer to this meeting. Perhaps someone from the external aid office will be giving a paper. Certainly, a representative will be involved as an observer.
This raises the question as to where Canadian government or public funds should go in the field of external aid. Just as CUSO has difficulty in raising funds, so the government has a problem here as well. I do not know, but I would guess that the government is probably giving first priority to restoring the full amount of the Colombo plan expenditure which, as hon. members may know, was running at $50 million a year and which was cut last year to $41.5 million. It seems to me there is a great deal to be said for restoring this grant as soon as possible. Indeed, there is much to be said for increasing the amount. I would like to see it doubled. Then the government already has in operation a number of other aid programs in addition to the Colombo plan. First, there is the program of assistance to the West Indies. This is a $10 million program. Second, there is participation in the commonwealth educational program under which we provide approximately 250 scholarships at an annual cost of $1 million. This is a program in which all the less developed members of the commonwealth share. Third, there is our program of assistance to the commonwealth countries of Africa, amounting to about $3.5 million a year. Fourth, there are smaller programs of assistance, shortly to be amalgamated, for the benefit of British Guiana, British Honduras and Hong Kong. Fifth, there is the program of educational assistance to the French states of Africa.
These are five continuing programs which have all proved their worth, and from what I have been able to discover they should all be encouraged. Indeed, perhaps additions should be made to them. The demands on the government in the field of external aid in the direction of restoring the cutback in the Colombo plan expenditure, as a first step to increasing it if possible, besides doing something more in the programs in which it is already involved, make it unlikely that at this particular moment it will begin to give aid to agencies which up to now have been providing their own funds. This is not to say it will not consider doing so in the future if the agencies concerned really cannot make a go of it.
I am sure the government will give this matter sympathetic consideration, and I am sure all of us who are interested will do our best to see it does so, not by means of a


formal motion in this house but, I would hope, by all of us who are interested in these matters getting together and descending on the government.


Mr.   Marlin@Essex East: Will the hon. lady be in that group?


Pauline Jewett: Yes, I would like to be in the group.
Furthermore, I think those of us who are concerned about Canada's work abroad should remember the suggestion made by the hon. member for Kindersley (Mr. Cantelon) -I think he was quoting President Kennedy -that the great division in the world today is between the rich and the poor, between the have and the have-not nations. I think that is true, and that it is something about which Canada should do far more than she is doing. I was shocked to find that of the ten member nations on the development assistance committee of OECD, Canada's contribution was the lowest; yet we have the second or, perhaps, the third highest standard of living in the world. I think there is far more that we need to do, through societies, and through private individuals in contributions to these societies, and through our government, to see that we carry on a much more effective and widespread kind of contribution than we have done so far.


Harold Edward Winch: Mr. Speaker, I welcome the opportunity of speaking for a few minutes in support of this motion. I believe that if ever there was a motion which should enjoy the support of every hon. member in this house, it is the one now before us. The reason I desire to speak for a few moments is because I have had the opportunity of seeing these young men, under the plan in operation, in Africa. I might say that it makes one absolutely proud to see the work they are doing and the admiration in which they are held by the people in the countries in which they work.
Six hon. members from this House of Commons had the opportunity last fall of spending six or seven weeks in Nigeria, and we travelled the entire country. Wherever we went we had the opportunity of meeting some of these young people who are working under this plan, and sharing their abilities, skills and humanities in countries and amongst people where such are needed. Wherever we went, whether we met these people in a village or a city, we were told at all times how happy the people were with these young people, and were asked if we could not send them some more. They definitely needed more of the type of assistance that these Canadians have been giving and are giving. I think that request can most certainly be understood if

I just use as an example the country we travelled in last year. Here we have a country which is a member of the commonwealth. It has 42 million people, and for those 42 million people there are 81 doctors and 33 dentists. The only places you see hospitals are in the major cities, and in some of them there is only one doctor. At every hospital there is a line-up of between 500 to 1,000 outpatients every morning, most of whom, of course, have to be turned away. It is a country where one child out of two dies at birth. These countries in Africa are countries with problems, and these young people under this plan are trying to offer a contribution on behalf of Canada.
Mr. Speaker, I felt I just had to get up and say how proud I myself was in travelling around Africa last year and seeing what these 24 people, I think it is, are doing in one country. But a lot more are needed and we have the responsibility, in assisting this university plan, of seeing that if the money required cannot be obtained from private sources this government should certainly consider the advisability of giving official aid through the medium of the university for what I maintain is a wonderful and worthwhile plan for those in need, a plan contributed to by our country of Canada.
(Translation):


Mr. Maurice Rinfret (St. James):: Mr. Speaker, education is the concern of all conscientious citizens, and all those responsible for the progress made in that field deserve great praise.
In Canada, primary and secondary education is given under improved conditions both for the pupils and the teachers.
University education is being dispensed to an increasing number of students. Technical education has progressed throughout the country. We were happy to hear today, from the Minister of Labour (Mr. MacEachen), that the federal government will continue to offer its program of assistance to the provinces for the building of technical schools.
Mr. Speaker, Canada is providing generously for the education of her children. Realizing how advantageous education could be, university teachers and students have joined together to promote the future of education in less fortunate countries. The voice of those underdeveloped countries was heard at the United Nations and in other international forums. Such appeals have been supported by people from all corners of the globe, and were echoed in a most fraternal way by Pope John XXIII who will be remembered as the apostle of brotherhood.
University Service Overseas
In Canada, that generous idea come to life on June 6, 1961. On that occasion, representatives of 21 Canadian universities and 22 corporations laid the groundwork for Canadian university services overseas, known as CUSO.
This came in addition to the aid Canada was already giving to the underdeveloped countries, because we know that within the United Nations in 1961 Canada as a member of that organization, subscribed a total amount of $7,440,000 to international aid and assistance funds to underdeveloped countries.
It is in a spirit of generosity that our Canadian universities got together to set up this Canadian university service overseas. Seventy eight Canadian graduates were members of the 1961-62 group. In the light of the first year's experience, 120 graduates will be members of the 1962-63 group.
The organization known as the foundation of Canadian universities is an example of national achievement due to the co-operation of our two official ethnical groups which have contributed to promote this project by recruiting and selecting people from all Canadian universities.
Out of a total of 78 students, Laval University and the University of Montreal contributed 20 French speaking candidates, and it is estimated that 40 French speaking candidates will be among the next group of 120 graduates.
This fact is worthy of being mentioned; it is an example to all the organizations of the federal civil service and to the crown corporations that if we really want to recruit and select people in conformity with our aspirations, the candidates are many and have the required qualifications to play their part in all fields of Canadian activity. The federal civil service and the crown corporations have but to imitate the Canadian university service overseas in its recruiting and selection methods, and they will thus be in a position to give a more equitable share to French speaking Canadians in the administration of the country.
Mr. Speaker, allow me to point out to the house that a great Canadian educator, Rev. Father Georges Henri Levesque, has left for Rouanda. After having set up the social science department at Laval University, in Quebec, Father Levesque leaves Canada to found a university in Africa. Pioneer in the field of education in Canada, Father Levesque

University Service Overseas wants to help a young country, anxious to make strides in education. Other Canadian educators, no doubt, will go over to assist Father Levesque in his task.
Mr. Speaker, I have also been told today that five professors from the Catholic school board of Montreal will give refresher courses this summer to some professors from Gabon. These are two examples of Canadian efforts towards very deserving programs of mutual assistance between nations.
The hon. member for Royal (Mr. Fair-weather) suggests direct financial assistance by the federal government to the Canadian university service overseas. I take leave to suggest a middle course to the proposal by the hon. member. Let us ask the Canadian Universities Foundation to make an annual grant to be added to subscriptions paid to the Canadian university service overseas by individuals, organizations and companies.
The Canadian university service overseas has an annual budget of $200,000 and has succeeded in collecting $100,000 in private donations. The Canadian Universities Foundation must keep its control and direction over the Canadian university service overseas, but the interference of the federal government by a direct contribution would in time wash out the characteristics which the founders had planned for this establishment.
The countries where our graduates are sent pay the salaries and, in a few cases only, the transportation costs. To date, in two years of operation, transportation is our major expense item.
Could the government not assist through its transportation services our graduates who must travel to far off lands? Have the R.C.A.F., the Department of Transport and the Department of External Affairs ever been consulted on that matter? Could not the Canada Council set up a scholarship system under the title of "post-university study and research"?
I am glad that once again, the Canadian university service overseas program was brought before the house and our discussion will make us ever more conscious of the part Canada must play the world over as an independent and prosperous nation helping other less developed nations who also have a right to independence and prosperity. (Text):


Mr. Grant Deachman (Vancouver Quadra):: Mr. Speaker, in the few minutes that are left before six o'clock I should like to-


Robert Gordon Lee Fairweather: Talk it out.


Grant Deachman: -add some comments to those that have already been made on this side of the house in respect of this motion. I think it is quite apparent to the house
[Mr. Riniret.l
at this time that no one has anything but good will for the work CUSO, the university students organization, is doing, and it is a matter of how to work out and in what time to work out appropriate aid for this organization and for other organizations that are engaged in similar work.
I happen to be by profession a fund raiser, someone who looks after the organization of the raising of funds for voluntary organizations of this kind. So when I hear of a national organization seeking funds for a purpose of this kind upon a national basis, an organization with such high ideals and such national interest, drawing its personnel from universities from coast to coast, I can only be astonished that the total sum they have been able to raise to date is only $90,000 to $100,000 for the current year's effort.
Let me make some comparisons. In the city of Vancouver at Christmas time the Salvation Army kettles appear. The churches try to help the poor by providing some turkeys for them, and giving a few dollars to people who otherwise would not have any money. The estimated total sum collected in nickles and dimes in the city of Vancouver at Christmas time over the course of a few days for things of that kind comes to approximately $100,000, a sum comparable to that which the people of Canada are prepared to give out for a proposal of this kind.
This means that up and down St. James street and along Dorchester, along Bay street, along Portage and Main and Granville streets, all that can be obtained by university people and others interested in this matter by going to all the business houses and industrial enterprises to see the presidents of these companies sitting in their offices is as much money as the people of Vancouver provide at Christmas time for the poor-and no more.
Mr. Fair weather: The drive is only on now.


Grant Deachman: If this is the case, I wonder whether or not the Canadian university foundation is presenting the case for CUSO to the Canadian people at this time in the terms in which it ought to be presented to them. Certainly here is a movement that deserves the attention of the Canadian people, that deserves a response from the Canadian people commensurate with its importance and its effect upon the national interest and what it can do for the country. Yet we find that it can only raise $100,000 to send these students abroad, and that the number of students who go abroad is pitifully small compared with what could be done if the Canadian people wanted to do it.
I want to take you back many years, Mr. Speaker, to the days when the Y.M.C.A. was formed in this country, and when it sent out

railway Y.M.C.A. units to follow the building of the railway across the country. This was done before world war I and these organizations made themselves available to look after the men who were going into the wilderness and who needed that kind of contact. At that time millions of dollars were raised from industrialists all across the country because they believed it was important that men on the frontier of Canada in positions of that kind should have this sort of aid.
Somehow there was a spirit abroad at that time in the minds of industrialists and people who could afford this kind of thing that does not exist on behalf of CUSO today. You and I, Mr. Speaker, somehow must awaken the Canadian people to the situation if we expect to get a response to CUSO commensurate with its importance. It is not enough that the government should be asked to bolster this scheme when the people of Canada themselves are only prepared to subscribe to it at this level.
I see it is almost six o'clock, Mr. Speaker, and I should like to say one final word about CUSO. Those who may read in Hansard the very fine words that have been uttered on this subject today might take a second look at the importance of this proposal and by their action indicate to the house that this is a matter of greater value and importance than they care to place on it today.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Order. The hour appointed for the consideration of private members' business having expired, the house will resume consideration of the business interrupted at five o'clock.



INDUSTRY


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed consideration in committee of the following resolution-Mr. Pearson-Mr. Lamoureux in the chair:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure (a) to establish a department of industry to be presided over by a minister of industry who shall be appointed under the Great Seal of Canada, to authorize the appointment of a deputy minister by the governor in council, and to provide for the appointment to the department on a temporary basis of persons having special knowledge of manufacturing industries to assist in the work of the department; (b) to provide for the establishment under the direction of the minister of an area development agency and to provide for the appointment of a commissioner and a deputy commissioner for area development; and (c) to make a consequential amendment to the Salaries Act to provide a salary for the minister.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.
10, 1963	861
Establishment of Industry Department AFTER RECESS
The committee resumed at 8 p.m.
Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Mr. Chairman, at five o'clock I was just beginning my remarks on this important subject and pointing out how happy I was to see that even the Liberal party now recognizes that we have to move very vigorously in the area of industrial decentralization, industrial diversification and industrial development. During the critical years when Canada was faced with profound changes not only internally but also externally, the attitude towards this problem of assisting our economy in the change from primary production to secondary production was largely left to the laissez faire process. I made some reference to the historical past in this respect which resulted in a great economic upsurge following world war II and which was largely brought about by external factors. The problem of internal Canadian adaptation to the modern world was worsened rather than lessened in that industry failed to diversify. It remained geared to the demands of defence requirements and also was largely concentrated in the two central provinces. This, of course, only intensified the problems that have dogged confederation ever since 1867, namely the concentration of population in a small area of Canada, the concentration of financial interests and so forth. This problem, aggravated by the failure to act vigorously during the years 1945 into the mid 50's, has created some of the more serious difficulties within our system of confederation at the present time.
I was interested to note that the Department of Defence Production is the chosen instrument to take over the functions. I expressed some surprise because the record of the defence production department in the past has not been salutary so far as resolving these basic difficulties in Canada's body politic to which I have referred. This leads me to comment further on the tendency in Canada for industrial development to take the lines of least resistance and concentrate in the areas of defence requirements. I think the unhappy experience of Avro is the classical example in this regard. Here was a company that put all its eggs in one basket in terms of industrial development with the rather disastrous consequences which occurred in the changing circumstances of the mid 50's. The tragedy of the Avro aircraft is very closely associated with this laissez faire attitude of the former Liberal administration towards industrial development. I recall the debates in this house when the Avro jetliner project was scrapped in favour of a military program which it was felt at that time was necessitated

Establishment of Industry Department by the outbreak of the Korean war. I kept some of the items relating to this subject because of my interest in the matter, coming as I do from an area of Canada which felt keenly the need for industrial development and stimulation.
I kept an item from the issue of the Avro Canada Magazine back in March 1950 concerning the jetliner which points out, and I quote:
As you know, the jetliner will soon complete its pressurization tests in the air and then go on to obtain its American certificate of airworthiness. After that, we will try to sell it throughout the world because there seem to be no technical or aerodynamic snags to upset us. We hope to start by selling the jetliner right here in Canada and the United States operators have shown a definite interest in it. The jetliner is being flown to England this summer with the view of interesting British and European operators. There is considerable interest in this aircraft in Australia and there might also be some in South America. We are hoping that the second jetliner will soon be ready to help us out in our sales tours and demonstrations.
Now, unfortunately, shortly after that statement was made the whole project was cancelled and the industry returned to its defence orientation. I felt at the time, and many others were of a similar opinion, that Canada had lost a great industrial opportunity because this jetliner had flown simultaneously with the de Havilland Comet. If the project had been carried forward, if there had been careful planning and careful co-ordination within government departments, we would have had a balanced aircraft industry in that important industrial area of Toronto rather than the lopsided development which resulted in the Avro economic difficulties of the mid 50's.
Then, another example of this failure to give any direction or even co-ordination during those critical years when all parts of Canada were crying for guidance from the former Liberal government, was the T.C.A. episode in the city of Winnipeg. Winnipeg had been chosen as the T.C.A. repair centre. I just happen to have a clipping from the Winnipeg Free Press of Thursday, June 6 which outlines in a clear-cut way how the present problems of T.C.A. in the city of Winnipeg began. The Free Press article is headed, "A History of Deception". In order to outline what the editors of that newspaper mean by that I am going to give one or two quotations from the editorial.
In 1948 Mr. C. D. Howe, then minister of trade, said in reply to queries that T.C.A. had no intention of moving its main department from Winnipeg. He said that some operating department heads might move, but that 95 per cent of the company's activities would remain centred in Winnipeg.
This sounded like a very sensible program, in view of the geographic circumstances in

Canada and also in view of the need to decentralize industrial activities. We know what happened shortly after that, and the Free Press article gives in some detail the sorry pattern of withdrawal from that basic position over the years until, at the present time, the citizens of Winnipeg and particularly the employees of T.C.A. are not even certain that the telegram that was sent during the course of the last election campaign meant what it said. The telegram, in effect, said that the proper location of T.C.A. facilities and services would be determined in a manner which would be fair and equitable to the city of Winnipeg. This is almost a paraphrase of the original statement which was made in 1948 by the then minister of trade and commerce.
Now, Mr. Chairman, this indicates that at the time there was a real need for a program that would co-ordinate and encourage industrial decentralization and diversification. There was no action forthcoming from the then Liberal government. The provinces took the matter into their own hands and, almost without exception, each of the provincial governments have established very strong and virile industrial development programs.
Just to illustrate this point I could point out the progress that has been made in the province of Manitoba where for the past four years, ever since Hon. Mr. Roblin became premier, they have moved forward with a very vigorous program of industrial development. They have divided the province into regional areas to avoid the difficulty of internecine strife between small local municipalities. They conceive of industrial potential in terms of regions rather than local municipalities. Recently the business community, the manufacturing community, the voluntary groups associated with these sectors of the economy, working in close co-operation with the provincial government have produced an excellent report on the economic prospects of that province which will be implemented over the next few years.
This is typical of the programs that have been carried out in each of the provinces. They had to undertake this work and move into this area because of the inactivity of the former Liberal administration. This, Mr. Chairman, indicates that two things must take place. We are faced with the proposal that everything which has been going forward in the provinces, as well as in the various departments of government, at the federal level is now going to be concentrated in a new department of industry. The preliminary statement of the Prime Minister would suggest that the Department of Defence Production is going to be the chosen instrument in this regard, and I would like to

emphasize that there is a strong possibility, if the pattern of the Liberal government when it was formerly in power is resumed, for these matters once again to be considered in isolation.
I would like to emphasize just as strongly as I can that you cannot carry out this important task of encouraging the development of secondary industries, of assisting Canada in moving as rapidly as possible from primary production to secondary production, unless you take into consideration the intragovernmental aspects, that is to say, cooperation between the various departments of government that are involved in this process.
I want to congratulate the Minister of Labour on his statement this afternoon to the effect that programs will be undertaken, or I should say continued, to stimulate employment. In his statement he emphasized the necessity for the closest possible coordination and co-operation between the various departments of government. In so doing he endorsed the policy carried out by the former Conservative administration. The programs he outlined are programs that are already under way or were in contemplation. The only differences were slight modifications for the sake of effect. Our administration realized that government today can only be carried on successfully if ministers and departments work together for the betterment of the whole. This is demonstrated in the work of the national energy board which dealt very successfully in that field of activity. Again today the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources is taking one further step in the development of the national resources ministers council, which has been in process of formation for the past two years. I cannot overemphasize the necessity of intra-governmental co-operation as well as inter-governmental co-operation.
To bring my remarks to a conclusion there is just one other aspect I wish to mention. The Glassco report had some words to say on these matters, and it is to be noted that it made some strong recommendations concerning the functions of the Department of Defence Production. I trust that in its desire to introduce a half-baked program which was drawn out of the blue during an election campaign to support a slogan with similar dubious origins, the slogan of 60 days of action, the government will not be stampeded into completely ignoring the very significant recommendations of the Glassco report. These are the admonitions that must be taken into consideration as we move a step forward- or what could be the case, a step backward, particularly if the action contemplated by the 28902-5-55i
10, 1963	863
Establishment of Industry Department resolution breaks down the fine spirit of interdepartmental co-ordination established over the past few years, resulting in the tremendous upsurge of the economy and its present buoyant state.
If it should be a step backward it will impede the fine relations that have been established intergovernmentally, too. The phrase used in the speech from the throne, and which is now being used with increasing frequency, "co-operative federalism", was something that was not only talked about by the former administration but was applied at every opportunity.
We recognized that Canada's economic development is indivisible. As a former minister of national resources I am aware of just how closely we worked and consulted with the provincial governments. I trust that in its desire to make a political point in order to discharge an ill-conceived slogan, 60 days of action, we will not return to the former isolation. Such a situation could have very serious effects on the present upsurge of the economy which has been left as a heritage by the former administration. Should that happen our second state might be much worse than the first.


Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson: I would just like to say one or two words with respect to this resolution. Usually, Mr. Chairman, when something novel is introduced a number of hon. members have a word or two to say about it, sometimes several words, and they conclude by suggesting the government get on with it as rapidly as possible. Dealing with this particular resolution, however, I am not sure I would like the government to proceed with it as rapidly as possible, in fact, perhaps not even at all.
To date the explanation given in justification of setting up a new department of industry is not sufficient. When the Prime Minister opened this debate he said the proposed new federal department would not be over protective; the objective would be to encourage more trade, and it would not be there for the purpose of protecting inefficient industry. He also pointed out that it would not interfere with the counterpart departments within the provinces. One of the most significant statements he made was that there would be no new responsibility added to this department that is not already in one of the other departments.
Therefore, Mr. Chairman, the question immediately arises: What useful purpose could this new department serve that could not now be served by one of the departments already in existence? Why, for example, could not the Department of Trade and Commerce be changed to the department of trade and
864	HOUSE OF
Establishment of Industry Department industry to deal with all those matters which the Prime Minister mentioned, and in fact achieve those desirable end results? We have not yet had a thorough explanation of what will be the relationship between the new department of industry and the new economic council. We would like to know where the responsibility of one of these bodies ends and the responsibility of the other begins, and so on.
It was rather interesting to note the remarks of the hon. member for Digby-Annapolis-Kings who said there have been differences of opinion as to which department is responsible in certain areas. He suggested there were occasions when this bordered on conflict, although he was rather hesitant to use that term and preferred the phrase "differences of opinion". I think this is something we should be very careful about and we should ask the government to give us a reasonably good explanation as to how they are going to deal with this question. For example, last Friday the Minister of Finance made a statement in the house respecting the new, so-called voluntary import quotas on Japanese trade with Canada. These quotas covered a large number of items. I was tempted at the time to ask the minister-but which minister-whether, in the negotiations with the Japanese government preceding the imposition of these voluntary quotas, there had been discussions with Japanese officials as to an increase in the export of our wheat to Japan if we agreed to allow the increase of exports from Japan. This already involves three different ministers, I suggest, the Minister of Finance who made this statement, the Minister of Trade and Commerce who is supposedly concerned with our trade with the other trading nations of the world, and certainly the Minister of Agriculture who is, or should be, particularly interested in the export of agricultural products. There are a number of questions such as these that arise. As I said at the outset, I believe that the explanation given so far as to the need for a new department of industry certainly does not justify setting it up.
Under section (b) of the resolution there is provision for the establishment, under the direction of the minister, of an area development agency. This is rather vague. I wonder where the Atlantic development board fits into this scheme. Then there is the provincial board called APEC. It seems to me we are setting up one board, department, commission, or something, after the other and are giving them the same responsibilities. At least, we are giving all these various boards the same problems and are asking them to come up with solutions. Quite frankly, Mr. Chairman, I am not convinced that more


boards or departments are the answer to the problems we have been passing over to committees over the years. I think there are sufficient departments within the government now to deal with recommendations that have been made to the government and to take some positive action based on those recommendations, if in fact the will to take action is there at the present time. I certainly do not believe that setting up a new department of industry is going to stimulate any more will to take some action. I think, too, that most hon. members will agree that smaller committees are quite often more effective in giving advice than are larger committees. We are having one committee on top of another, one department on top of another. We will probably end up by having committees of these departments to deal with the problems. Therefore, Mr. Chairman, I am not quite sure whether I would like to support this new department. Unless the Prime Minister or the minister who will probably be in charge of it can give us some more justification for its being set up, I think we will have to reserve decision on it. The other matter is this. As has been pointed out by the previous speaker, the Glassco commission has recommended, I believe, that some segment of defence production should be turned into a purchasing agency for the procurement of equipment, and so on, for all branches of the armed services. To fragment that department's activities by adding a department of industry to it would, I think, be retrogressive in achieving what the Glassco commission has recommended with respect to buying supplies for the armed services. I think this is not a good idea; it is not going in the right direction. I believe that the Department of Defence Production, in addition to the work it is now doing, could perform a good and useful service to Canada by acting as a purchasing agency for all the other things that all branches of the armed services require. Certainly by incorporating it into a department of industry would weaken it as that type of agency.
Mr. Chairman, I do not wish to take up more of the committee's time at the moment. However, I would point out that there is this multiplicity of committees and departments which seem to be charged with the same responsibility. As far as I am concerned, I think we should have a fuller explanation as to its exact purpose and also why some of the departments that exist in government now could not perform these functions.


Robert William Prittie: Mr. Chairman, my colleague the hon. member for Danforth said we were going to support this resolution. With that in mind I will make my remarks very brief

so we can have the bill. I think the sooner we get through this resolution and first reading of the bill, the sooner we will get to the resolution to appoint a second minister of agriculture, and I believe my hon. friends on the right are now stacking ammunition in anticipation of that measure being debated.
In explaining the purpose of this department on Friday, the Prime Minister had this to say in part, as reported at page 803 of Hansard:
Our special need in this country-and this applies to other highly developed industrial countries-is to create and expand the more sophisticated, the more complicated, if you like, kinds of industry producing goods which we both need ourselves and which we can sell to other countries.
It seems to me that if the department is to achieve this aim it may find it will have to encourage certain amalgamations of Canadian industry-if you like, a certain rationalization of some of our manufacturing industries-so they can produce at low cost and compete in world markets. If this is to be done-and I do not think it can be avoided in some cases-the federal government has a responsibility to see that consumers are not hurt in the process.
I suggest that our present anti-combines legislation is too weak to protect effectively the consumers and small business from the price-fixing activities of certain large business combines-and I expect we shall have more of this kind of activity in the future.
The anti-combines laws of this country were recently studied by two university professors G. Rosenbluth and H. G. Thorburn. They published their findings in a book called Canadian Anti-Combines Administration 19521960. The central argument of these authors is that Canadian combines legislation is based on a mistaken concept-the "cops and robbers" concept. According to this viewpoint, monopolistic or anti-competitive practices are the infrequent acts of a criminal minority who represent exceptions to a generally competitive and law-abiding business community. It follows from this assumption that the role of the combines machinery is to seek out these deviates and bring them to justice before the courts.
The authors believe that these very limited terms of reference prevent a solution of the real problem. They point out that monopolistic practices are not an aberration from the norm but, rather, are widespread and constitute the typical business environment. They favour the view that the preservation of competition requires constant attention by the government in order to render the economic environment competitive and to reduce the attractiveness of monopolistic arrangements. In shaping the economic environment all the
10, 1963	865
Establishment of Industry Department government's powers and activities are relevant, and the enforcement of specific antimonopoly rules and regulations is only a part, and not necessarily the most important part, of an anti-monopoly policy. This prescription could be interpreted to mean a much larger role for the public regulation of monopolistic practice than would be consistent with Canadian traditions of free enterprise.
The authors go on to point out that there is evidence the government does not take anti-combines work very seriously. The importance attached by the government to any activity can frequently be measured in terms of budgetary expenditure. By this standard the authors show that anti-combines operations rank equally with those of the Newfoundland bait service-and I am not being facetious; perhaps expenditure on those services should be increased-and somewhat below the dominion observatory in the government's scale of priorities. The most revealing chapter in the book attempts to measure the scope and success of activities under the Combines Investigation Act. Using a market-size index, Rosenbluth and Thorburn find that cases not handled effectively by the anticombines machinery exceed those effectively handled by a ratio of nearly six to one.
I should like to quote here from what the authors have to say-


Lucien Lamoureux: I do not wish to interrupt the hon. gentleman but it seems to me that for the last few moments he has been straying from the purpose of this resolution, which deals with the establishment of a department of industry. Perhaps the hon. member would like to relate whatever he is saying now to the resolution under consideration.


Robert William Prittie: Mr. Chairman, I did attempt at the outset of my remarks to make the relationship clear. I tried to anticipate the type of activity in which the department would become involved while, perhaps, creating larger business enterprises in this country, and I pointed out some of the dangers which might follow. I am simply suggesting, now, that a department of industry might be somewhat ineffective if it did not have a stronger hand to police some of the resulting activities.
In any case, my remarks will be completed in a very few moments.
To quote again from the authors I have mentioned, they reached this conclusion:
In more than a technical sense, ultimate responsibility for the scope of anti-combines activity rests with the cabinet... if the application of the combines machinery has been very limited, this state of affairs reflects the policy of successive governments, both Liberal and Conservative.
I merely wish to leave this one thought with the government. We feel this department
866	HOUSE OF COMMONS
Establishment of Industry Department might do a great deal of good in promoting industrial development, but it might be faced with the problem I have suggested, namely that in order to make Canadian industry competitive it might have to encourage larger concentration. Much of the work of the department might be wasted if it were not given strong anti-combines legislation to watch and police the larger concentrations of industry which could result from the policies of the new department.


Lawrence Elliott Kindt: Incidentally, I just telephoned Fort Macleod and there is no rain yet.
I am pleased to have an opportunity of speaking to this resolution. Before I do, I should like to ask the Prime Minister a couple of questions in the hope that when he has the time to give explanations, he will do so. For instance, in the middle of the resolution I find this statement:
To provide for the appointment to the department on a temporary basis of persons having special knowledge of manufacturing industry to assist in the work of the department.
Will these be dollar a year men? What is the intent of the government in setting up this department?
Will the question of temporary employees extend to a major part of the workers operating this new department or will it be an appendage to the skeleton staff which is going to be running it? Clarification of that would be helpful in further discussions of this matter.
Again, in the resolution, in the second last line it is stated as the intention-
-to provide for the appointment of a commissioner and a deputy commissioner for area development.
I wonder if the Prime Minister would define what is meant by area development. In other words, what is the criterion to be used in selecting such areas? With this information, we shall be in a position to understand more clearly what the intention of the government is.
I have no objection whatever to a new department of industry being set up, though I do not see how it could do more than the Department of Trade and Commerce is doing now, or could do in the future. It seems to me that more ministries are being set up merely to give the impression to the people of Canada that this present government is really making decisions, though all it is doing is trying to make a showing for political purposes. The Department of Trade and Commerce has been organized, as we all know, for a great many years during which time it has performed a magnificent service for the people of Canada. There are people within that department spending their lives
[Mr. Prittie.l
doing the very thing this resolution attempts to bring into being, namely the stimulation of new industry.
Let me put on the record some of the facts which the Department of Trade and Commerce has to its credit in 1962; I think this is the appropriate time to do this. I think I should give you, Mr. Chairman, as well as this committee and the country, the following facts. During 1962 Canada's gross national product-that is, the sum total of all goods and services produced in Canada during the year-increased by 8 per cent. The increase in our national production-that is, the gross national product less the increase in prices which took place during the year, which is therefore the true measure of the increase in national output-was 7 per cent. These are statistics taken from the dominion bureau of statistics, not something which I am cooking up. These are the official figures and anyone in this house can obtain them if they wish to take the trouble to do so. The comparison between our increase in national production with that which took place in the other major countries of the free world during the past year is as follows. Canada had a 7 per cent increase; that is, the percentage increase in national output went up 7 per cent. In Italy it went up 6 per cent, the United States 5 per cent, France 5 per cent, Japan 5 per cent, Germany 4 per cent, Sweden 4 per cent, Belgium 3 per cent, The Netherlands 3 per cent, the United Kingdom 1 per cent. In short, the point I wish to bring to the attention of this committee is that the Canadian economy shows the greatest increase of any country in the free world in percentage increase of national output during the year 1962.
Let me also put on the record some more achievements of the Department of Trade and Commerce. During the past year the increase in the consumer price level in Canada was only 1 per cent. The comparison between Canada's performance in this regard and that of the other major countries of the free world is as follows. As I have said, the increase in the consumer price level in 1962 in Canada was 1 per cent. In the United States it was 1.1 per cent, The Netherlands 3.3 per cent, Germany 3.7 per cent, Italy 4.3 per cent, United Kingdom 4.7 per cent, France 5.4 per cent. In each of the years 1959, 1960 and 1961 the increase in the consumer price level was also 1 per cent each year. During the ten years prior to the former government coming into office in June 1957 the average increase per year was 3.7 per cent. In other words, when the present government was in office prior to 1957 the increase was 3.7 per cent.


Paul Raymond Martineau: Mr. Chairman, it gives me great pleasure to take this opportunity to say a few words on the resolution

brought before this house by the right hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Pearson) who, by the way, used astonishingly vague terms to propose in this house the establishment of a new department of industry.
A mere glance through his speech of introduction with a few quotations at random will show hon. members to what point he was vague.
For instance, as can be seen on page 801 of Hansard, the Prime Minister said:
The test of the value of the economic council's work will be whether it succeeds in identifying what I might refer to as the emerging points-
I think this a completely new phrase and I don't quite see the meaning of it. Anyhow, he discusses the-
-emerging points of expansion in our economy and to help keep our economy expanding to a point where it will be able to provide for full employment.
There you have vague expressions of laudable intents, but as for substance, there is little or none.
And here again, the Prime Minister added:
Its task will also be to guide the public and the government and to give advice on what are the sectors of our economy-
Well, I think that any government activity must in some degree serve as a guidance for the public and also for the government; and if the function of the new department is nothing more, indeed, there is not much to make such a fuss.
And the Prime Minister continues:
The point and purpose of the department of industry, which it is proposed to set up, will be to assist in transmitting these various ideas into effective action.
What are all those ideas he is speaking about? He doesn't know, because he says that the various ideas, which will fall from heaven like a kind of manna, I suppose, are those which will be suggested by the Canadian economic council, which is not yet set up.
Up to now, it is therefore mainly suggested that some container be formed, as it were, but nobody knows exactly what it is going to hold.
The Prime Minister also said that this department of industry will help the manufacturing industry in the same way as the Department of Agriculture serves the farmers.
There is another point which still should be fully cleared up, more particularly in view of the fact that the government did announce its intention of forming, or rather of dividing the existant Department of Agriculture so as to form two branches, one for the west and the other for the east.

The Prime Minister said moreover:
-the functions of the new department will be to maintain close, practical contact with industry, to make sure that industry gets service from government.
And the Prime Minister added:
-it will be concerned with the building rather than the blueprints of an expanding economy.
And again, he said:
-we are not, of course, writing on a clean slate.
Now, Mr. Chairman, the cat has come out of the bag. As a matter of fact, this new department will give us nothing new and will not really mean that help or assistance which was so widely discussed and that this government, when it formed the opposition, and more particularly during the last election, pretended to be the cure for all the ills from which our economy and secondary manufacturing industry in Canada are suffering.
And still further on, he said:
In introducing this measure, the government has no intention to set up a great new bureaucratic machine, duplicating work already being done-
Well, if it is only to duplicate work being done elsewhere, there is not much sense in making such a fuss about a new department whose duties are not known exactly.
In short, Mr. Speaker, the government seems to be in the same situation as a hen that has given birth to an ugly duckling and does not really know what to do with it.
I may be unfair toward the government but after looking fully into the minister's statement, I find that my remarks reflect fairly well the vague recital he made on that occasion.
We are still at the resolution stage and I trust that the bill itself will reveal the concrete measures through which the government intends to grapple with this serious problem of giving new impetus to secondary industry in our country.
Mr. Chairman, we fully agree with the Prime Minister concerning the general aims set out in the resolution. We can say it again, that is easy; anybody would do that. May Canada's economy be able to compete with that of any other country in the world. That is a fine ambition but, for the time being, we have no idea as to how the government intends to proceed to achieve that objective.
We hope that the new department will tackle the true problems of our economy. One of those problems is the necessity for our industries to manufacture commodities which would be a specialty of Canada and 28902-5-56
10, 1963	869
Establishment of Industry Department which no other country could produce as well and under the same conditions. If the department succeeds in assisting certain industries where we have a definite advantage over other countries, then its contribution will have been worth while. I do hope that the new department will earnestly consider this vitally important matter of industrial research.
In Canada, a vast but sparsely populated country, the problem of industrial research is more critical than in some other countries. Lacking as we do the tremendous research facilities enjoyed by some of our wealthier neighbours, especially the United States whose material means are far superior to our own and which is therefore able to devise, to break new ground, to produce on a massive scale and then to distribute goods all over the world, Canada has to specialize in some well-defined areas of production.
I also hope that the new department will look into the possibility of stepping up the productivity of the Canadian economy and the productive capacity of the Canadian worker. Incidentally, I feel we have good cause to deplore the imminent disappearance of the productivity council which has assuredly been of very great service to the industry of this country.
I also hope that this new department will set itself to solve the commercial deficit, to which the Prime Minister made reference without however attempting to clarify his thinking in this regard.
I also like to believe that the new department will consider the problems brought about by the commercial blocks, as well as those resulting from automation. The Prime Minister dealt with automation, but in very vague and general terms indeed.
If I understood him correctly, he believes that unemployment is the most serious economic problem facing Canada today. We would be hard put to contradict him on this point. He added that secondary industry is one of the most fertile sources of new employment in Canada. There again, he is right. However, a distinction is in order and the statement must take into account the problem springing up from automation in the industry.
On this score, I remember reading lately that in 1961, President Kennedy set up a committee to consider this question. This committee included the U.S. secretary for labour, Mr. Goldberg, the secretary for trade, seven American business leaders and seven national union leaders. They met and

Establishment of Industry Department came to certain conclusions. One of those conclusions was that, in spite of the growth in productivity and in spite of a record economic activity, unemployment nevertheless continued to take alarming proportions in the United States, even though their manufacturing industry, which is one of the most steady and most solid in the world, was in a very healthy condition. Well, in order to keep pace with technological developments and to remain competitive in this modern world, the American industry had to modernize itself. Moreover, the report suggested that the fantastic sum of $100 billion would have to be spent in the United States only before it could finally be said that American secondary industry is really modern, really up to date, and in a position to compete with the renovated industries of a reconstructed Europe. It must be said that what is true for the United States is just as true for Canada. Finally, the report submitted to the president by the secretary for labour noted that it was necessary for the American industry- and, on this point, what applies to the American industry can be applied to the Canadian industry-to undergo modernization and automation, but that certain compromises should be made and, especially, that industry and manpower should be prepared to accept these new conditions.
The report recommended in particular that there be, first of all, a reasonable interval, in any industry, between the time at which the decision to adopt automation in a factory or in all the factories was taken and the date of the effective change, so as to prepare the workers for this change.
Second, he said that it is important not to introduce this new procedure when the economy is slowing down, but to be careful in choosing for each particular industry the moment when it is at its peak. If industry were to apply those principles to the process of automation one of the almost inevitable results of automation would be avoided, that is technological unemployment.
In my opinion, that is one of the problems that this new department should tackle most seriously.
The Prime Minister said that he did not want, through the establishment of this new department, to create a new bureaucratic machinery but this places him in a dilemma: the new department will make innovations or else it will have no value whatever. If it is meant to experiment to actually serve industry, it will have to hire a qualified staff,
[Mr. Martineau.l
an expert staff to show the way. This will obviously increase the bureaucratic machinery. It is useless to say that the number of civil servants is not increased with the creation of a new department. How can we set up a new department without at the same time recruiting the required personnel.
The Prime Minister also mentioned that he did not intend, with this new department, to infringe on the rights of the provinces. He specified quite rightly that industry comes under provincial jurisdiction. He said that the department would enter into joint projects even though the Liberal program as advertised in the province of Quebec was based on federal withdrawal from joint programs.
Now, this is a new joint program, a new department whose prime objective will be to work jointly with the provinces, in other words, to initiate other joint programs. I am wondering what the premier of Quebec will say about this draft legislation seen under such a light.
He also spoke about the establishment of an area development agency, and here again I have to make some reservations. I believe we should examine this legislation very closely to see whether or not it infringes upon provincial jurisdiction, because when we are talking about area development we are dangerously treading on ground traditionally reserved to the provinces. I believe that as far as area development is concerned, there is a lot to be done and a new department must co-ordinate and consider government policies in order to ensure that underdeveloped areas shall benefit to the fullest. I quite agree with that, for there are in this country, in our province, and also in the riding which I represent, vast underdeveloped areas. Not only are they areas with a surplus of manpower but especially, and to a greater extent, they are underdeveloped areas.
It is not so much that there is a surplus of manpower, but rather that the workers cannot earn a living, so they leave the area for the city. That throws the whole Canadian economy out of balance and creates communities so large that they become uncontrollable compared to the vast wilderness of rural areas. It is an important problem which affects large segments of the population.
I feel the Prime Minister will have to tell us more and I hope he will do so when he introduces the bill in the house.
Before ending my remarks, I can say I am ready to support it, but, to use a legal expression, with all due reservations.


Mr. Gregoire:: Mr. Chairman, I should like to say a few words on the resolution now before the house. I note that it is divided in three parts. Part A concerns the appointment of a minister and a deputy minister, B deals with the establishment of an area development agency and C provides for their salaries.
Parts A and C are easy to understand and surely do not involve any great decisions. Therefore, the resolution refers only to an area development agency and then, the Prime Minister (Mr. Pearson) explained what he intended to do through that legislation in his speech of last Friday introducing that bill.
And now Mr. Chairman, here are the few proposals discussed by the Prime Minister when he introduced that motion. First of all, he said, as can be found on page 802 of Hansard:
. . . what can be done to increase Canadian production and how government can help in this regard.
How can we increase Canadian production? It is very simple. We should increase the purchases. Do you want to increase production? It is as simple as that.
Lately, I met someone who works in a plant where they make white pieces of furniture, stoves, washing machines, refrigerators, and he told me that as far as these goods were concerned-similar industries only run at 40 per cent of their capacity-40 per cent at most of the Canadian people have what they need in that respect.
The industry is capable of increasing its production but unfortunately there are no buyers. If the Prime Minister wants to know how to increase production in Canada, here is the answer: see to it that the people can increase their purchases, increase their purchasing power. If that is done, production cannot but increase.
And a little farther, I read this:
That the functions of the new department will be to maintain close, practical contact with industry, to make sure that industry gets service from government.
Well, Mr. Chairman, let me tell you one thing. If the department maintains close contact with industrialists, here is the first thing that will happen: they will prove they are overtaxed, that taxes being too high, prices will have to be increased. At the present time, federal, provincial, municipal and school taxes are rising sharply.
28902-5-56J
10, 1963	871
Establishment of Industry Department
Now, if the minister keeps in close contact with industry, I think he will receive some requests, and that the first one will be for a tax reduction.
Mr. Chairman, in his speech on the establishment of a department of industry, the Prime Minister stated, last Friday, as we may see on page 802 of the official record:
Where are we going to provide the jobs for the 250,000 young people, by which our labour force is going to increase in each of the next few years?
And further on, he added:
Where will we find, in addition, the new jobs that are needed to keep pace with automation-
With regard to this matter, Mr. Chairman, I think that the government should consider the unemployment problem under a quite different angle than the industrial one. And as far as the field of labour is concerned, Mr. Chairman, I would submit the following thesis to the Prime Minister. It has been recognized that the labour and employment field comprises three sections.
First of all, there is what we may call the production section. Now, 100 or 150 years ago, the whole population applied itself to production. The shoemaker made the shoes himself which he put in his showcase and sold them himself. The use of machinery also was part of productive labour, because automation had not yet been discovered. Indeed, today some industries may produce quantities of goods with only very few men, and at this point the second section appears in the field of labour, that is the marketing section. There are some men who are employed in production and others in marketing and sales. The latter created a new source of employment, but today, we have come to the point where industry grabs all the labour it can.
On the other hand, there is an excess of labour in the marketing field. Indeed, salesmen can even be seen going from door to door offering shoe laces, dictionaries, bibles, perfume, and what have you. Now, as the marketing and sales field is already overcrowded, the unemployment problem will scarcely be solved that way, nor even by trying to employ all Canadians in industry.
There remains a third section in the labour field, the useful and needed services to the people, a section which will know an evergrowing development. Indeed, following auto-
872	HOUSE OF
Establishment of Industry Department mation and our recognized possibilities of production and marketing we can afford to go ahead and develop that third section, i.e. the services which men can render their fellow men.
And among the various kinds of employment which may be found in the field of services, we may mention, for instance, the case of the school teacher. The present regulations in the province of Quebec call for one teacher per 40 pupils. Well, the highest authorities in pedagogy agree that in order to successfully look after education, there should be a minimum of one teacher per 14 pupils. Now, this would mean over
75.000	more teachers for the province of Quebec.
The country also has an urgent need for physicians, technicians in the field of medicine, town planning, architecture, in a word for a host of professional people who could serve their fellow citizens. And when the Prime Minister put the question as he did last Friday:
Where are we going to provide the jobs tor the
250.000	young people by which our labour force is going to increase in each of the next few years?
My reply to him is: Do not try to lead all those young people to industry because it would be a mistake due to automation which is spreading all the time especially the last few years and will continue in the future. In addition, as it was never tried in the past, let him not throw everybody in the field of production.
Mr. Speaker, we know our country has productive capacity. It is also true that we could set up new secondary industries, but the fact still remains that a very low percentage of the labour force would be engaged in industrial production, while the majority of workers will have to enter the fields of sales and services. When we consider that one out of 18 persons is working in industry and that industrialists at this time are receiving more applications than they can offer jobs, we must realize that the industrial field is saturated as far as employment opportunities are concerned and that automation will displace a great number of our working force.	[DOT]
Mr. Chairman, I hope that the department of industry will first of all enable Canadians to purchase not produce only. I do not want you to believe that I am opposed to production, quite the contrary, I am for it, because the more we produce the more we can satisfy the need of the Canadian people and this is
[Mr. Gregoire.l

the aim of the economic system. But at the present time, in this period we are going through, we must make every effort to sell anything the industry can put out. We must help industry to sell goods and to this end we must supply the Canadian citizens with purchasing power. This is the most important problem.
Mr. Chairman, we must not rely on economic guidance boards or departments of industries to solve the unemployment problem, like the Prime Minister tried to indicate in his speech of last Friday. We must not rely on that because we could be very bitterly disappointed.
Mr. Chairman, I also note that speaking about industrial protection, the Prime Minister said it was not by maintaining high tariffs that we would sell our goods.
Well, let us not forget that products made in Canada are more expensive than goods made in other countries and that when tariff barriers are removed, less expensive products will sell first. In fact, why are our products more expensive than those made in the United States? Because our taxes are higher. Indeed, it costs no more to make a package of cigarettes in the United States than in Canada, because it is the same tobacco and the same paper. Nevertheless, Americans pay 27 or 28 cents, while Canadians have to pay 40 cents. The difference in the price goes in taxes.
If the department of industry is expected to launch into a reduction of tariff barriers, I agree, because I am in favour of trade between nations, but to begin with, we must stabilize our prices in order to compete with other countries in imports and exports. And to do that, we will have first to reduce the taxes on our products.
Mr. Chairman, those were the few observations I wished to make. In fact, I have another one, following some observations by the right hon. Prime Minister who said, speaking about an area development agency:
The areas which concern us are those where unemployment is prevailing-
Mr. Chairman, I should like to ask the Prime Minister to name just one region in Canada where unemployment is not prevailing, only one. In fact, even in his riding unemployment is rife.

Now, if he is concerned about the regions where unemployment is prevailing, he must realize that unemployment exists all across the country because it is not a localized matter due to geographic or transportation circumstances. Unemployment is a national plague, all across the country. It ignores regional frontiers and extends to all areas, in every corner of the country and it will have to be eradicated everywhere.
Mr. Chairman, the Prime Minister also stated:
-the government is by no means blind to the difficulties and problems which will arise and which the new department, if it is set up, will have to face.
Mr. Chairman, it is not the department of industry which will settle the problems everywhere. I do not see why new problems should arise, provided the new department guides the economy in the right direction; if such is not the case, not only will it fail to solve the problems, but it will not do anything constructive.
Without wishing to criticize in any way the measure put forward by the Prime Minister, I felt I had to call his attention to a few problems that will come up. I felt I had to tell him also that even if he sets up a department such as the department of industry, even if he manages to achieve the purposes of paragraphs (a), (b) and (c), that is if he appoints a minister and deputy minister, if he sets up a Canadian development corporation and if he raises the salaries of the minister and the deputy minister, that will not help him solve the problems he seemed to mention in the speech he made last Friday. Let him rather think of developing other fields of human activities that will open new opportunities, because those we have now, that is factory work or merchandising, are already saturated.
It might be possible to establish new industries or at least to help the Canadian people, for example, in industries such as steel, asbestos and many others.
It is recognized that our building industry is greatly developed, but why is it not developed even more, especially when there is such a need for slum clearance, when there is a need for more than 800,000 new homes in Canada. There is an industry where assistance is badly needed and it should not be given by trying to teach the plumber how to install his pipes or the contractor how to
10, 1963	873
Establishment of Industry Department build a house, but first and, foremost, by enabling the ordinary Canadian citizen to go and buy himself a house. Let us leave the house builder alone. He will manage to build the house. Let us reduce taxes, and the house will cost less. Let us reduce interest rates of the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation, and the ordinary Canadian will be able to buy his house, and you will see how many plumbers, electricians and workers are able to buy a decent house and that Canada is able to provide a home for each and every Canadian citizen.
If the Prime Minister, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Diefenbaker), the ministers, all members can live in proper houses, it means that, at the time, we had the manpower, the skills, and the materials necessary to build them. Well, Mr. Chairman, I say to the Prime Minister that we have everything we need in Canada to build houses for all Canadians. The solution is to help the humble folks to buy their houses. That is the problem.
It is simple, nobody need have invented gunpowder to be able to discover that.
So, I believe that the first concern of this department of industry should be to help Canadians to buy what industry can produce. If the department of industry can do that, Mr. Chairman, the day Canada will be able to buy what its industry can produce, it will be possible to say of the present Prime Minister that he has introduced the best measure ever carried by a government here, in Ottawa, an act which will have settled the problem that faces Canadians in allowing them to buy, to acquire all the wealth human industry and primary resources can give.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Chairman, I would not like to see the setting up of this new department becoming an opportunity for the present government to interfere with provincial jurisdiction in industrial and economic matters.
We are very anxious to know whether the government has contacted the ministers or the premiers of each province to see if provinces such as Quebec and Ontario, as well as others, are in favour of the establishment, by the federal government, of a department of industry, so that the jurisdiction of each province in this field shall be respected.
Indeed the new minister who will be appointed to head this department, should give us information on this point. However, the fact that the Minister of Defence Production (Mr. Drury) will head this department is a
874	HOUSE OF
Establishment of Industry Department somewhat comforting thought. If the minister responsible for this department had been the hon. member for Outremont-St. Jean (Mr. Lamontagne), we should have been quite worried about the autonomy of the provinces, for the hon. member is a known advocate of centralization and, in the past, he has disregarded the rights of the provinces.
In any case, we are anxious to learn whether the Prime Minister has consulted with the premiers and sought their co-operation and whether the provinces were willing to co-operate. As far as the province of Quebec is concerned, we know of the many ultimatums which the Lesage government has served on the federal government.
Mr. Chairman, it would be unfortunate if this new department were to become an opportunity for intrusion into provincial jurisdiction, delayed the development of confederation and rather jeopardized it.
Mr. Chairman, the resolution specifies that the minister shall have certain experts to advise him.
I strongly suggest that he recruit the majority of these experts in the provinces where there is less heavy industries, such as the province of Quebec and the maritime provinces. We all know that these provinces suffer from a lack of heavy industry.
There is at present a national lack of balance which even affects national unity, for when there is an economic recession in some parts of the country, national unity is automatically affected and even the wealthier provinces are adversely affected.
It would also be advisable that the new minister, after having consulted with the provinces so as to avoid encroachment in their respective jurisdictions, find ways and means of processing our raw materials domestically.
Today, we see carloads of nickel ingots, carloads of iron ore being shipped direct to the United States where they are processed and manufactured, and then sold back to Canada.
If these raw materials were processed in Canada, our workers would thereby obtain jobs and additional income, and this would also bring extra taxes to our country.
We could also sell more abroad and get in this way more foreign currency which would contribute to decrease our trade deficit.
Everyone knows that the province of Quebec holds a record as far as the number of the unemployed is concerned. Forty per cent of the unemployed are from the province of


Quebec. Thus I ask the new minister to undertake a very special study in that field in order to give a lift to the economy of the province if possible, to bring in heavy industry, so that it can prosper like the other provinces-and this applies also to the mari-times, so that those provinces can increase their economic strength.
A few days ago a prominent professor at Queen's University during a lecture, stated this-and here I quote La Presse, the Friday edition, last June 7:
Quebec will need twenty years before it can hold an important place in industry.
Which means, Mr. Chairman, that the new head of that department has a long way to go and that he must work continuously to that end. I know that he has had vast experience, but I have to reproach him slightly, although I know that he is not the only one to blame. During the last world war, the Department of Defence Production established hardly any heavy defence industry in the maritimes and in the province of Quebec.
For example we find, in the county of Joli-ette-L'Assomption-Montcalm a branch of Canadian Arsenals which is called the Cherrier plant. That plant had an employment capacity of 15,000 men during the last war, and after the war that figure fell to 500 or 600 employees, where it remains now.
I ask the minister to work with all his might and to follow in his predecessor's footsteps, those of the former member for Lot-biniere, who secured from the Americans very important contracts to provide jobs for our workers, especially in the field of defence production.
I also advise the new minister to set up a Canadian textile council. Unfortunately, the former Liberal government neglected too long in the past the textile industry that is largely concentrated in eastern Ontario, Quebec and the maritimes
The textile industry has been described as ideal for Canada:
1.	Over 50 per cent of that industry is in Canadian hands;
2.	It employs the greatest number of workers during the winter, which reduces seasonal unemployment;
3.	It meets basic needs;
4.	It can be located in underdeveloped areas;
5.	It uses Canadian materials.
The primary and secondary textile industry is owned and operated by Canadians in

the proportion of 84 per cent, as against 48 per cent of Canadian industry in general. The labour force is at its highest from September to April and falls off during the summer months. That industry meets an obvious need of primary importance.
When a production need is felt, that industry can settle in areas where industry is totally non-existent, or almost, because of its great need for skilled and unskilled labour.
New industries have tried to locate in the maritime provinces but they had a great deal of difficulty because of the slowing down in production. There are numerous new synthetic Canadian products such as rayon, nylon, viscose and acetate.
Mr. Chairman, over 130 million pounds of refined pulp are used as raw material for the manufacture of rayon in the textile industry. The value of the pulp increases from 1 to 30 per cent per pound before use.
Almost 100 per cent of the Canadian wool production is used in our mills and most of our chemicals are of Canadian manufacture.
Please note, Mr. Chairman, that the textile industry alone employs the greatest number of workmen in Canada. It is more than the mining industry, 20 times more than all the petroleum industries, almost twice as much as the forest industry and almost twice as much as the paper industry.
I wanted to call the attention, Mr. Chairman, to the importance there is for this new department, in co-operation with the provinces, to promote and protect our textile industry. I know that the minister and the Prime Minister agree with me on that matter. The devaluation of the Canadian dollar greatly helped the textile industry during these last years. I wish I knew if the new minister agrees with me on that matter.
Mr. Chairman, I do not want to interfere with the provincial jurisdiction, but as a taxpayer and a citizen of a province, I also think it is reasonable that in the future, before granting a mining claim, the provinces concerned should set drastic conditions to foreign capital which will get them, so that in the long run, Canadians may become owners instead of always serving our powerful neighbours to the south.
We want to co-operate with the United States, but we also want them to give Cana-
10, 1963	875
Establishment of Industry Department dians a chance to participate in the executive boards. Need I have to remind you, Mr. Chairman, that foreign capitalists control 57 per cent of Canadian industries.
It is also a danger from a political point of view. We know something about it on this side of the house in view of certain events which took place recently. Following an electoral campaign, we know that foreign interests own more than 50 per cent of capital investments in this country and thus, could control our politics.
I would like foreign capital, which is always welcome in our country, to be placed under Canadian control. And as I said earlier, Americans should give Canadians an interest in American subsidiaries. It is also unfortunate to see Canadian industrialists who have succeeded through their efforts and in spite of competition, being forced to sell their business to foreign interests as soon as it is flourishing. The provinces should also restrict those transactions, but without interfering with the freedom of industries. There should be a special committee in every province to prevent Canadian industrialists who own a family concern from selling it to foreign interests. For instance, the Sorel Industries sold its forge to a large American steel mill. It is most unfortunate to see Canadians who have set up a successful business reach a point where they must sell it to foreign interests.
Mr. Chairman, I trust that the new department of industry will be cautious in all circumstances, especially concerning tariff matters, so that tariff rates will not be abolished. There is a refrigerator factory in my riding. If tariff rates were to be abolished, it would have to close down and lay off hundreds of workers.
The same thing could be said of agriculture. Customs tariffs should not be abolished. Our farm products especially should be protected against American dumping.
I also hope that the Canadian government will find new markets for our products so as to diversify our trade patterns. Our imports from the United States are larger than our exports, with the result that we have a trade deficit. The smallest change in the American protectionist policy has its effects in Canada.
876	HOUSE OF COMMONS
Establishment of Industry Department
In closing, I should like to express the wish that the new department of industry-will co-operate with the ministers of trade of the provinces for the establishment of the metric system in Canada. In the past, I had the opportunity of showing the great advantages that would ensue from the use of the metric system in conjunction with the imperial system of weights and measures. I have pointed out to the house the tremendous opportunities we have lost in the field of international trade, especially as far as precision tools and machinery are concerned. I should like to make the following constructive suggestion to the minister. In my opinion, a federal-provincial conference should be called if necessary, so that the metric system may be applied and taught in the schools.
The provinces should progressively adapt their highway traffic signs to the national standards to help our trade. Canada, the United States and a few other countries will soon be the only ones to recognize our present system.
Great Britain is said to be substituting the metric system for its system of weights and measures. In our country, if we want to be up to date and to compete on world markets, if we want to be leaders in world trade, we must go forward.
I hope the minister who is quite resourceful will consider these problems with the co-operation of the departments of trade and industry of the provinces, in order to leave no avenue unexplored in his efforts to check unemployment and increase our export trade.
(Text):


Mr. Peters:: Mr. Chairman, I have only a few remarks to make on this resolution to set up a department of industry. In view of the fact that the Prime Minister himself introduced this resolution and is obviously so interested in it, I think something should be said about areas like his own about which I presume he would find some difficulty in speaking owing to his position in this house. For many areas of Canada the area development agency is going to be the answer to a promise made by the Prime Minister and other members of the government to solve some of the industrial problems of areas similar to the one represented by the Prime Minister.
In combining these various agencies that the Prime Minister mentioned it would appear that for the second time in my experience

we are creating a new cabinet post and we hope that this has not been done to provide a job for a specific person but that a much broader application is involved. The former government established the Department of Forestry which has grown very rapidly but it is my personal feeling that maybe it was set up for a specific purpose and that it grew like Topsy after the original need was met.
I believe that area development can and will eventually be one of the major roles of government, and I am wondering, as did a previous speaker, whether this can be done by government that is pledged to the free enterprise system and to the maintenance of that system. I am wondering how you can say that you are going to have people brought into this new department to administer the department of industry and at the same time say that you are going to provide area development for those areas where industry is not now located.
I believe that in many parts of Canada industry location is going to be the most important question that the government will have to face. The Prime Minister's area, which has developed very rapidly, has reached a stage in less than 10 years that it took my area 50 years to reach. But the result has been the same. In both these areas we have had development. Social capital has been expanded beyond the needs of the people of the area at the present time. This has been done in many parts of Canada through basic industry development. Such development will still continue and will be encouraged in the normal way where industry can produce a product at a cost that makes it worth while to operate as in the case of the new mining development that is taking place in my area. Under normal circumstances these industries will develop themselves.
There are areas, however, where no new basic development is taking place and industry is going to have to be given a shot in the arm. Industry is going to have to be assisted and is actually going to have to be directed because if it did not need to be directed it would already have located in these areas.
It is quite true that many of the things that have been done in the last five years have been advantageous and have provided initiative to bring new industries into such areas. Yet if we look at most of the major areas of surplus manpower across Canada we will find that few industries have gone into those areas of their own volition. The cities, the

major consumption areas of the country, are still growing very rapidly while other areas are not growing at all.
The previous government, and I presume this government intends to do the same, gave financial assistance, direction and technical advice to induce industry to locate in specific areas that are known as disaster or distressed areas. This has resulted in many surprising things. I was interested to read in the Toronto Star not long ago that Nova Scotia now has a new rug manufacturing industry. If this industry had not been given some assistance by the maritime council, which has been helpful in assisting other industries in Spring-hill and throughout the maritimes, I think this rug manufacturing industry would not have gone to that province but would have gone to a city like Toronto or Hamilton, or the surrounding area.
Industry itself has not proven its capability to develop in those areas where industry is not now located. I can remember what happened not long ago in the towns of Orillia and Barrie which are probably closer to the large consuming centre than Hamilton. Five years ago in Orillia and Barrie there were people working for 50, 60 or 65 cents an hour. If one listens to what industry says, that should have been all the incentive necessary to bring industry there. It is true that to some extent it did.
I can remember being in Windsor when one of the auxiliary plants of the automobile industry decided to move to Orillia principally because of the lower wage rates in that town. It was not very long until they moved back again to Windsor and relocated their plant there because wages, municipal grants and other incentives commonly used to induce industry to locate in a particular place are not enough to bring about the redevelopment of industry that is necessary in those areas where the need is greatest.
In northern Ontario we are not distant from the market. It is true that industry will say that it cannot go outside of the major consumption areas because the greater portion of their products must be consumed locally or it is not advantageous to them, and I have already indicated that many communities offer incentives that amount to the same advantage in dollars and cents as these industries would have in one of the larger population centres.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I wonder if the hon. gentleman would permit me to interrupt him for a second to see whether it might be the wish of the committee to continue for a few minutes longer with a view to getting the resolution through and having first reading of the bill. There has been debate all day on
National Defence Committee this motion and there was some on Friday. Perhaps hon. members would feel that any further remarks might be made on the bill.


William Arnold Peters: If it is the wish of the committee; but I only wanted to bring forward this matter of area development at the resolution stage, although I know I do not need to bring it to the attention of the Prime Minister. Maybe we are naive enough to think that the discussion that takes place on the resolution should have some bearing on the bill that follows, and now that this matter has been brought to the attention of the government the Prime Minister may see fit to do something in this field for both our areas.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Speaker, I agree with the hon. member for Timiskaming, that the resolution stage of the bill might serve, and has in the past sometimes served the purpose of getting the government to change its mind with regard to a bill, and deciding to redraft it and present it in an amended form. I think the resolution stage of this bill is very important and there are other members who wish to speak on the resolution stage.
Progress reported.



NATIONAL DEFENCE


John Whitney Pickersgill: I wonder if I might have leave to revert to motions to move a motion which I should really have made at the opening of the proceedings today?


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Has the Secretary of State leave to revert to motions?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I move:
That the special committee on defence appointed May 30, 1963, be composed of Messrs. Asselin-


Gordon Minto Churchill: Could we have the names? There are only 24.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I would be very happy if Your Honour would read out the names.


Mr. Speaker:: By unanimous consent, the Secretary of State (Mr. Pickersgill) moves:
That the special committee on defence appointed May 30, 1963, be composed of Messrs. Asselin, (Notre Dame de Grace), Baldwin, Bechard, Brewin, Churchill, Deachman, Fairweather, Granger, Groos, Hahn, Lambert, Laniel, Lessard (Lake St. John), Lloyd, Maclnnis, MacLean, Martineau, Matheson, McMillan, Patterson, Sauve, Smith, Temple, Winch.
Is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion?


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
Business of the House BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Gordon Minto Churchill: May I ask the house leader il the business for tomorrow is as announced, namely, item No. 2 on today's order paper?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Yes, it is proposed tomorrow, as I indicated on Friday, that we should start with the resolution in connection with the municipal development and loan board. We would hope that good progress could be made on that motion and before the end of the day it would be possible to revert to the

motion in connection with the department of industry upon which the hon. member for Winnipeg South Centre has indicated several other members wish to speak, and that we might be able to complete both of these tomorrow. If we should complete both of them and there were any additional time, I would propose to begin the resolution preceding the amendments to the Atlantic development board.


[Stage Direction]
It being five minutes after ten o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[Stage Direction]
Tuesday, June 11, 1963