1962-10-29

HOUSE OF COMMONS DEBATES


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Monday, October 29, 1962

Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, we meet today in an atmosphere considerably less tense than that which prevailed over the last few anxious days. Members of the house will have watched with attention the rapid developments over the week end which reached their climax yesterday morning in Chairman Khrushchev's decision to order the dismantling of Soviet missile sites in Cuba and the removal of the missiles to the Soviet union. There is no need to recapitulate in detail what transpired except perhaps to clarify one development which was confusing at the time and introduced for a while a dangerous element of uncertainty.
Chairman Khrushchev had sent a message to President Kennedy offering to dismantle the Soviet bases in Cuba in exchange for a United States undertaking to remove the quarantine measures and to give assurance against invasion of Cuba. Within a few hours Moscow radio was broadcasting the text of a further Khrushchev message which seemed to impose a new condition to the Soviet offer by linking the question of Soviet withdrawal of missiles from Cuba with a similar withdrawal by the United States of missiles from Turkey. This attempt to raise the price in circumstances which left unclear just what the Soviet union was or was not prepared to do in order to meet the insistent United States demand that the Cuba threat be liquidated first became for a time a complicating factor which it was feared might upset the hopeful development which had seemed about to be achieved. The uncertainty thus caused was finally removed only when Chairman Khrushchev gave orders to dismantle the missile bases in Cuba under U.N. supervision.
Members of the house will be glad that the threat posed by the long range Soviet missiles in Cuba will be speedily removed. However, I think it is worth while warning again that none of us should take anything for granted in this tense situation, as there still remain a number of potential hurdles. Premier Castro's position is still a factor to be taken into account, and his preliminary reactions are not as encouraging as they might be.
There is still the complex if not difficult question of verification under U.N. supervision to be worked out; and there is little time in which to work out and accomplish what must be done in this connection. U Thant, the acting secretary general, is to go tomorrow to Havana to pave the way for U.N. surveillance of the dismantling of the sites and the withdrawal of the missiles. The Secretary of State for External Affairs (Mr. Green) went to New York yesterday and has already made known to the acting secretary general Canada's readiness to make its contribution to whatever inspection and verification arrangement the United Nations may undertake.
I think it is well to reiterate the word of caution that I used yesterday when dealing with this matter. While there will be universal relief that the outlook for a peaceful solution has greatly improved, there is a continuing need for negotiation on this and other potential sources of threats to world peace. The introduction of long range missiles capable of delivering nuclear warheads to nearly the whole of the western hemisphere has brought the world too close to disaster for anyone to include in complacency at this time. The fact that conflict has been averted can be attributed in very considerable degree to the unity, co-operation and understanding among the western allies in the face of a dangerous threat.
We should all recognize the constructive role that the United Nations has played in this crisis. Once again the world organization has provided a forum where the parties could meet together and where the secretary general could have the opportunity of using his offices.
With regard to the future, the first task is to restore the status quo ante by the complete liquidation of the situation in Cuba which had so dangerously upset the precarious balance of world power. But it will not be enough simply to return to the unsatisfactory stalemate in east-west relations. Even at the peak of the crisis President Kennedy and Chairman Khrushchev, and Prime Minister Macmillan too, felt the need to speak of the future and the pressing urgency of negotiating other outstanding differences. These acknowledgements of future needs open up new possibilities for progress on a broader front.

Crisis in Cuba
We must ensure that the momentum toward peace generated by this close brush with war is not lost in the days ahead.
Issues have been raised in the correspondence between the president and the chairman which properly belong in the disarmament field. The government feels that the machinery exists at Geneva to pursue these topics, and that the 18 nation disarmament conference should be reconvened with the least possible delay, their responsibility being to address themselves to these problems which, though not new in themselves, may have been given new possibility of solution over the week end.
Out of all this has come a step forward that few could have expected a week ago, and that is in the acceptance by the U.S.S.R. of the principle of inspection and verification. If the present settlement is fully accepted this will be the first time that agreed measures of disarmament are to be carried out under international inspection. This gives hope in the general field of disarmament, where up to the present time the Soviets have demanded that all international agreements for disarmament should be free from inspection, a course of action which would be dangerous in the utmost to the free world.


Hon. L. B. Pearson (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, I think, in fact I know, that all members of the house, as indeed all people of good will everywhere, will share the Prime Minister's relief at what seems to be the end of the immediate crisis in Cuba. Our relief will be all the greater because of the magnitude of the possible disaster if events had taken a different course. I think, Mr. Speaker, our relief and satisfaction is bound to be increased by the nature of the recent correspondence between the leaders of the two super powers who between them, with their governments and their peoples, have within their control this great issue of peace and war.
I am glad that the Prime Minister was able to remove one possible source of anxiety, some ambiguity in the Soviet position in regard to relating the situation in Cuba to the situation of the United States NATO bases in Turkey. This latter is something which no doubt can be considered on its merits. I think we were worried at the time that the position taken by the Soviet union might link these problems in a way which would prevent the solution of either.
As the Prime Minister has said, Mr. Speaker, we should keep our relief, as indeed it was necessary to keep our fears, in perspective and try to avoid excessive optimism or excessive pessimism. While we may profoundly hope,

and we all do, that this particular crisis which appeared to take us to the very brink of what would have been nuclear war, has been solved, there are other danger points which could easily become crises. The Prime Minister has mentioned one which is very much in our minds, and that is the position in Berlin.
There is, of course, an interconnection in the present circumstances of global cold war, between one danger point and another. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, if what we hope is a settlement of the Cuban crisis can lead to the reduction of tensions elsewhere, and especially to progress in the field of disarmament, then we can indeed be grateful to the President of the United States for the stand taken last week.
There is something else which was mentioned by the Prime Minister yesterday and which certainly should be avoided, that is the tendency to claim a victory for one side against the other. The only victory that we want in a situation of this kind, is the victory of peace with that freedom without which peace would not mean very much. Mr. Khrushchev's statement of yesterday, which was characterized by the President of the United States as an important and constructive contribution to peace, does open the door to further negotiations. I agree with the Prime Minister that it is surely now the purpose of statesmanship to exploit this opportunity to the full with persistence, with patience and with hope, but without any illusions and with the realization that solutions will not be easy or quick to find.
If, however, we can take advantage of this crisis, as was said in this house last week, in order to make progress in the solution of other problems, then indeed we will have made progress. In this situation, Mr. Speaker, surely the Atlantic coalition, NATO, must hold together with maximum unity. I would hope, and the events of this last week have underlined the importance of this, that the NATO council on the highest possible political level, will be able to go into almost continuous consultation as the western world seeks a means of continuing the progress which has begun by the hoped-for solution of the Cuban crisis.
I should like also, before I sit down, to echo what the Prime Minister has said about the indispensability of the United Nations, proven once again by the events of last week. The United Nations cannot itself impose a solution when any great power is opposed to that solution, but the United Nations, as has been shown once again, can provide the machinery through which a solution can be found, and provide a road along which the

great powers can retreat from destruction. I think we should be very happy-and we expressed that happiness last week-that we have a world organization in existence at this time, and we should use it to the full in the days ahead.
There are certain implications in the events which have taken place which concern the foreign policy and the defence policy of our own country. It would be well, I think, if we were now to study our own policies in the light of what happened last week and what is happening now.


Mr. A. B. Patterson (Fraser Valley):: Mr. Speaker, we appreciate the statement which has been presented to us this afternoon by the Prime Minister relative to a situation which has been of grave concern to us all throughout the past days.
I think it is a good thing that the Prime Minister does keep us advised of the developments which are taking place. We all recognize that in these circumstances there are sometimes factors involved which perhaps cannot be understood by the people at large and even by many of us who sit on the opposition side of this house, both because of the nature of the events themselves and also because the developments taking place have, at times, to be wrapped in secrecy. We do appreciate this statement and I am sure we all share the relief which has been occasioned by the events of the past two or three days.
Canadians from coast to coast were gravely alarmed by the situation in Cuba, as they had a right to be. For some time the policies followed by that nation have raised questions in the minds of many people, and as the situation developed those misgivings became more evident from day to day. Now that the immediate crisis has been resolved we are, naturally, filled with appreciation and a sense of thanksgiving, since we well understand that events of the kind we have seen in the past week or so could easily explode, resulting in dislocation and catastrophe not only for the western world but for the world as a whole. The news that the sites are to be dismantled and the missiles themselves returned to the Soviet union is comforting, but again we should like to urge that constant and cautious vigilance be the order of the day. Canada must continue to exercise a positive role in international affairs.
Once again I think it would be in order to say how much we appreciate the efforts of the Secretary of State for External Affairs in the field of disarmament. This is something which Canadians from coast to coast appreciate, something which unites us when there are so many things which divide us. We wholeheartedly support the efforts of the
Crisis in Cuba
Secretary of State for External Affairs in the field of disarmament because we feel this is the most rewarding field in which we could be engaged.
Not only would we urge constant and cautious vigilance but we must, I think, be ready to recognize the fact that we have to accept the responsibilities which fall upon a nation such as Canada. I agree that those responsibilities can best be discharged through the organizations and agencies which have already been established for that purpose; I refer to the United Nations and also to such other organizations as the organization of American states. I remember that some time ago, when I had the opportunity of attending meetings of the United Nations, one of the delegates stated that the United Nations had become too frail a vessel to become the repository of the hopes and aspirations of mankind. Perhaps he was right at that time, but I believe the United Nations is still the greatest organization we have at hand to carry on the work of peace and security. Therefore we continue to support the work of the United Nations and urge that it be used in every possible way to further the cause of peace and security.
Mr. Speaker, the leader of this group, the hon. member for Red Deer (Mr. Thompson) placed our position very clearly before the house just a few days ago in regard to many of these situations. Before I conclude I would just say once again that the privileges we enjoy here in Canada should only make us realize to a greater extent than ever the responsibilities we have to the peoples of every corner of the world in order that they may be able to live in security and peace, and that we can move forward and defend those things without which life would be meaningless and futile.


Mr. H. W. Herridge (Kootenay West):: Mr. Speaker, without a doubt all hon. members of the house share the sense of relief that was obvious when the Prime Minister was making his statement on this question. In recent hours our hearts have been lightened and our spirits raised. Furthermore, without any doubt developments in recent hours with respect to the Cuban crisis have caused a global sigh of relief, have renewed hopes for a return to international sanity, and have increased the determination of all peoples to make certain that brinkmanship, by any nation, is replaced with the statesmanship of the United Nations.
Mr. Speaker, recent events have proven the correctness of the policy of this party in its immediate and wholehearted support for the proposals made by U Thant, the acting secretary general of the United Nations. I am proud to say that while some hesitated

Crisis in Cuba
and faltered, we saw in these proposals a ray of hope amid the encircling gloom that prevailed in all countries last week. In our opinion the government of Canada, by its failure to give immediate and unequivocal support to the proposals made by the acting secretary general of the United Nations, lost a precious, should I say golden, opportunity to give leadership to the smaller nations. Fortunately, Mr. Speaker, recent events, shall I say recent happy events, now provide another opportunity for Canada to give leadership to these nations, to speak with a firm voice in uniting the smaller nations around a common policy.
Let me say at this point that the members of this party wish the Secretary of State for External Affairs every success in all he undertakes while he is at the United Nations to support the proposals put forward by U Thant, and proposals for continuing negotiation and the practice of statesmanship rather than brinkmanship.
When the Prime Minister was speaking he made reference to the future and mentioned some possibilities for future consideration. Before concluding I wish to suggest that we give firm leadership to the smaller nations and to other nations in support of a policy, some of the essentials of which are:
(1)	To continue the dismantling process which was begun in Cuba by a dismantling of missile bases throughout the world;
(2)	A firm undertaking by the two nuclear powers that they will bring any and every conflict between them to the United Nations before taking any action in future;
(3)	To take advantage of the Soviet agreement for international inspection in Cuba as a precedent for similar inspections as the basis for a general disarmament;
(4)	This party is convinced, as indeed it must be obvious to everyone, that the world can no longer afford this dangerous game of brinkmanship on the part of the nuclear powers. The gamble is too great, in the opinion of the members of this party and a good many people in Canada, when the survival of humanity is at stake.
In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, we urge this government to stand up and speak for Canada with a strong and a firm voice, knowing that it is on the side of right in so doing.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I only wish that the rules of the house allowed a reply to the hon. gentleman, but I do want to say one thing, and that is that that is the position which Canada has taken. If he wishes support in that regard he need only turn to the Washington Post of October 27, to an editorial entitled "Support from Ottawa", which sets forth most clearly that Canada's attitude

has been one which is acceptable not only to the United States but to the free world generally.



INDIA-REQUEST FOR SUPPLY OF MILITARY EQUIPMENT

John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, having said that, I should now say a word with regard to another problem which faces the world. The Leader of the Opposition has referred to the Berlin situation and there is, of course, the problem which is being faced in India by the people of that nation.
Last Monday I informed the house that if the Indian government should approach Canada for assistance, such a request would receive the fullest consideration. I now wish to report to the house that a request has been received from the Indian government, and that we are taking immediate steps to respond. On Friday we gave the Indian authorities a preliminary report on the kinds of military equipment available in Canada. These include Caribou transport planes. In a day or so I hope to be able to inform the house of the details of the supply of equipment to India.
Speaking for the Canadian government, and I hope for all members of the house, we are deeply disturbed at the attacks which are being made at this time against India, a fellow member of the commonwealth. India can rest assured that the Canadian government will co-operate to the fullest in helping that nation acquire those items which it needs to defend itself in this critical hour.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, I want to tell the Prime Minister that we on this side will certainly support anything the government can do to assist India, through the supply of needed and available equipment, to meet the unprovoked attack upon her territory by a country with which India has been so uniformly friendly in recent years. Anything that can be done to show our support and encouragement for the Indians in facing what amounts to all-out aggression, in so far as the climate and topography makes that possible, will I am sure receive the approval of all the people of Canada. Mr. Speaker, I note that in this connection the prime minister of Australia has already indicated that kind of support and sympathy. I am sure the help which the government can give India in this difficult time for her will be a like indication of that feeling of our friendship and support.


Alexander Bell Patterson: Mr. Speaker, we regret the fact that yet another of these problems has become so critical that a statement such as this has

to be made in this house. In the commonwealth we have shared a great many privileges; we have shared a great many responsibilities. As we think of this present situation which has developed, once more it has become a matter of great concern to all of us. Today we in this group would commend the position which has been taken by the government of Canada, and we would urge that every possible assistance be given, from the moral point of view as well as in other ways in which assistance may be necessary, in order to try to resolve this yet one more difficult situation in order that peace may be maintained.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Speaker, we were very pleased to hear the statement of the Prime Minister with respect to assistance to India, and to know that he has kept his promise made in reply to a question I asked on this matter on October 22. I am certain that all of us have the greatest sympathy for the present circumstances in India, that country being a member nation of our commonwealth.



INDUSTRY


Hon. George C. Nowlan (Minister of Finance):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to make an announcement concerning certain measures being taken to increase production and employment in the Canadian automotive industry. The house is well aware that Dean Bladen, in his report of the royal commission on the automotive industry, concluded that the Canadian industry could become more competitive through rationalization and specialization. His report establishes that this can be achieved by more production in Canada of automotive products for export.
The Canadian automobile industry has now secured a larger share of the domestic market than was the case a few years ago, when there were very substantial imports of finished cars entering Canada. However, imports of automotive parts have continued to increase. Consequently there remains a very large imbalance in the trade in automobiles and parts, a much greater imbalance than we should have in our economic circumstances. In 1961 the deficit on automobiles, trucks and parts was about $500 million, of which parts accounted for more than $300 million. Steps must be taken to reduce this deficit. Moreover, this must be done without incurring higher costs and prices in Canada.
The government has been carefully considering what could be done to improve significantly the balance of trade in this sector 27507-3-65
Tariff Changes on Automotive Parts through adopting or adapting recommendations made in Dean Bladen's report. It has concluded that the full implementation of the Bladen proposals at this time would not be practical; there are a number of highly complex and technical questions involving the relative position and prospects of the various sections of the automotive industry. Moreover, the Bladen program would involve renegotiating important international commitments. Such negotiations, of course, must be related to the important developments which are taking place in trade and tariff policy in Europe and in the United States.
We have therefore examined the possibilities of adopting a more limited Bladen type of approach tailored to meet the needs of Canadian producers and not requiring renegotiations with our trading partners. We have come to the conclusion that the conditions governing the importation of two major motor vehicle components-automatic transmissions and engines-should now be modified, along the following lines.
Automatic transmissions, which are being imported from the United States at an annual rate of over $32 million, are subject to a statutory most favoured nation tariff of 25 per cent. However, for more than ten years temporary duty free entry has been accorded by a series of orders in council under authority of section 273 of the Customs Act. The current order expires October 31.
The government has decided that this present free entry provision should be allowed to expire, and that in its place there should be established a provision under which the duties paid on automatic transmissions or parts thereof would be refunded, contingent on the export by each company importing automatic transmissions of an equivalent value of Canadian produced automobile parts. Under this arrangement credit will be given only for exports over and above the amount exported by each company during the past 12 months. It should be noted that exports made by Canadian automobile parts producers to the foreign affiliates of Canadian automobile manufacturers will be included in the arrangement. This new provision is being introduced for an initial period of 12 months commencing November 1.
Automobile engines also carry a statutory most favoured nation rate of 25 per cent. There has been no temporary free entry provision. The large companies produce most of the engines required for their own use, but import some for particular purposes. They do not produce any for sale to other automobile companies. The smaller companies have had no choice but to import all their engines.
1008	HOUSE OF
Tariff Changes on Automotive Parts
The government has concluded that a provision similar to that for automatic transmissions should be made for engines, but there should be a limit on the number which can be imported by each company under these arrangements for refund of duties. Such a provision should be of particular benefit to the smaller companies, in that it will make possible a considerable easement of the duties which they now have to pay. It will also enable the larger companies to secure duty free entry of those types of engines which it is not economical for them to make in Canada, providing, of course, they export an equivalent value of Canadian automobile parts.
These provisions are being given effect by an order in council which comes into effect November 1, and which I should like permission to table. This order will replace the present order in council relating to automatic transmissions which, as I have said, expires October 31.
These two provisions are designed to offer a substantial inducement to the automobile companies and the parts manufacturers to achieve a better balance between exports and imports of automotive parts. They will encourage additional production and longer production runs in Canada by stimulating the manufacture of those parts and components which can most efficiently be made in Canada.
The encouragement of exports of this sort, as recommended by Dean Bladen, is better than trying to force the automobile companies to buy in Canada components which manifestly can more economically be imported. These measures will make clear to the Canadian automotive industry the determination of this government to reduce the imbalance in the automobile sector of our trade, and to do this by reducing costs through increasing production for export rather than by increasing protection at the expense of the Canadian consumer. These measures affecting the automotive industry are to be regarded as one step in the government's longer term program to bring our international trade and payments into better balance, and to provide more jobs and more production in Canadian industry.


Mr. Speaker:: Has the minister the unanimous consent of the house to table the order in council as requested?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Hon. Paul Martin (Essex East):: Mr. Speaker, we have listened with interest to the statement of the Minister of Finance, who makes an announcement two days before the order in council permitting the free entry of automatic transmissions either would have expired automatically or would have


had to receive some refinement through a declaration of policy in principle somewhat like that announced by the minister a few moments ago. There has been considerable discussion about the drain on our exchange fund and its effect on our balance of payments by the continuous importation of automatic transmissions from the United States during a limited period by way of free entry. The minister I think mentioned the figure of $32 million.


George Clyde Nowlan: A little bit more than that.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I had understood that the drain would be something in the neighbourhood of $40 million. In any event, it represents a very important sum of money in terms of the problem arising out of our balance of payments situation. The same statement applies, of course, to automobile engines. For some time, as the minister knows, there has been a strong public opinion suggesting that the automobile companies ought to collaborate in the manufacture in Canada of automatic transmissions. This would be a more permanent solution of the problem. Admittedly there are economic difficulties involved and there are complications arising out of the number of automatic transmission models which are made.
However, the minister has not made any reference to another proposal that was made, as to the desirability, in the absence of collaboration by the automobile companies themselves, of adopting the suggestion that if this could not be done through collective or individual corporate effort, the government could give consideration to the establishment of a crown corporation for the purpose.
Having in mind the fact that the automobile industry represents the second largest source of employment in our country and, by way of corollary, the second largest source of unemployment, the minister has made two interesting announcements, one with regard to automatic transmissions and the other with regard to automobile engines. One would wish to examine the full implications of these two announcements, which I presume have been made as a result of talks which the minister must have had with those who at this moment are concerned with the problem of automobile manufacture. However, there will be regret that although the report of the Bladen commission has been in the possession of the government now for over two years this announcement, apart from the first recommendation having to do with the removal of excise taxes, is the only real acknowledgement the government has made of the existence of the report itself. Professor Bladen proposed a form of integration which,

in this day of discussion of economic problems between regions and between countries, has a very special application.
If, after two years of study, the minister had been able to announce that the government had come to the conclusion that the main recommendations of the Bladen commission with regard to integration had been adopted, then he would really be offering something of a substantial character toward the improvement of this industry and guaranteeing further employment. However, the minister has not done that. We can only presume that if and when he brings down the budget he, unlike his predecessor who skipped over the Bladen report twice, will at least give more than passing notice to the very important recommendations made by Professor Bladen with regard to an industry so vital not only to the community from which I come but to many other communities in Canada, and which is a source of so much employment.
It would have been extremely helpful if the minister could have said that not only was he now in a position to take some definite steps with regard to automobile engines and automatic transmissions but that the government too, recognizing that production in this particular industry was essential to the economy of the country, was going to take some action with regard to the recommendation made unanimously by the special mission to Europe of the productivity council in the matter of labour-management-government co-operation. The minister did not make reference to the desirability of action in this regard, with a view to improving the conditions which in turn will lead to improved production and improved prosperity for the automobile industry itself.
However, the minister has made a step. We shall examine these two announcements with the greatest care, hoping they will have the effect which the minister indicates namely by improving the situation so far as the parts industry is concerned and through its effect on the automobile industry. For what the minister has done, we thank him. For what he has not done we shall continue to prod him.
(Translation):


Mr. Gilles Gregoire (Lapointe):: Mr. Speaker, since we have had no opportunity to consider the order in council tabled in this house and since the Minister of Finance (Mr. Nowlan), like other great men, talks quite fast, we shall refrain from making any lengthy remarks on this proposal.
27507-3-65i
Questions
However, we would like to point out that this is probably a beginning and that we must consider that in many fields, like the auto industry, for instance, Canada should be in a position to exercise control over production of its own requirements. The province of Quebec, among others, has a wealth of minerals and can supply raw materials. In my opinion, Canadian engineers have the required qualifications to launch an automobile industry in Canada.
There has been a step made in that direction today, and we hope that the government will continue in this way.
Such a project would contribute to a better balance in our international trade, but from the point of view of creating employment, I do not believe the project would have any value as a comprehensive solution to unemployment. A thought occurred to me that if everyone put his shoulder to the wheel in order to develop our primary and secondary industries and our manufacturing industry, the whole country would benefit.
We do not want to make any further remarks until we have examined this new proposal in more detail.
(Text):


Mr. David Lewis (York Souih):: Mr. Speaker, I have been asked to say a word on behalf of this party on the announcement just made. There would be no purpose in repeating what has already been said. Before making any direct statement on the two propositions put to us by the minister, we should like to study them much more carefully. I express on behalf of our party our regret that these basic and important Canadian problems are dealt with in this piecemeal way instead of dealing with an industry as important as the automobile industry in an over-all way, planning for its future and for its contribution to a healthy Canadian economy.



QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated
by an asterisk.)

Mr. Mather: 1.	Pursuant to the National Centennial Act, has a national centennial administration been appointed, and, if so, upon what date?
2.	What is the name and address of the commissioner, the deputy commissioner, and each of the directors?
3.	If the said administration has not been appointed, (a) what is the reason therefor, and (b) when can we expect such appointment to take place?
4.	In the absence of such an administration, what steps are being taken to meet the prevailing lack of centennial organization at the provincial and municipal levels?

Questions


John George Diefenbaker: The answers are as follows:
1.	No.
2.	Inapplicable.
3.	It has not been considered appropriate to date. The government is giving consideration to the making of these appointments at a very early date.
4.	Three conferences have been held in Ottawa attended by federal ministers and by ministerial and other representatives of the provinces to discuss preparations for the observance of the centennial. The National Centennial Act describes the nature of the organization to be established by the federal government. The conditions governing the making of federal grants for local centennial projects were announced on October 11, 1961.


FITNESS AND AMATEUR SPORT
Mr. Roxburgh: 1.	With respect to the agreements and grants under the terms laid down by the national advisory council on fitness and amateur sport, has the Department of National Health and Welfare details of provincial programs in respect of each agreement?
2.	If so, (a) how much money has been spent to date on fitness and amateur sports activities in school playgrounds and recreation and community centres across Canada: and where, and in what centres, has this been spent (b) what has been done, and how much money has been allotted by the provinces on a provincial program for well trained volunteers, leaders, and coaches?
3.	If the answer to part 2 is in the negative, is there a provision in such agreements whereby the provinces will provide information upon a request being made by the federal government for particulars of their program?
Answer by: Mrs. Casselman:
1.	The planning and organization grants to the provinces were made for the purpose of carrying out surveys, establishing administrative machinery and such other purposes as would assist the provinces in planning and organizing provincial activities in the field of fitness and amateur sport. At the federal-provincial conference held in Ottawa on September 28 and 29 the provincial representatives reported verbally on progress made with this assistance. At the end of the fiscal year formal statements will be obtained from each province with respect to the use made of the grant for this purpose. Some provinces have signed agreements with respect to the second allocation of $250,000 and are in the process of preparing projects for submission.
2.	Details of this nature will be available at the end of the fiscal year after the provinces have submitted all their projects under the agreements referred to in answer 1 above.

3.	With regard to the planning and organization grant see answer 1 above. With respect to the second grant allocation, the agreements provide for the submission of individual projects. Each project will set out information on the purpose for which funds are being sought.


A. S. WHITELEY-POSITION IN CIVIL SERVICE
Mr. Knowles: Has any action been taken by the government to unfreeze or open a suitable position in the civil service to which Mr. A. S. Whiteley could be transferred by the civil service commission if he is retired from the restrictive trade practices commission and, if so, what action?
Answer by: Mr. Bell (Saint John-Albert):
This question was answered by the Secretary of State for External Affairs on Tuesday, October 23, 1962 at page 823 in Hansard.


RESTIGOUCHE-MADAWASKA, N.B., TRAIN SERVICE
Mr. Dube: Since 1957, have any Canadian National Railway stations been closed, or freight or passenger services discontinued, temporarily or permanently, in Restigouche-Madawaska and, if so, at what place, when, and for how long?
Answer by: Mr. McBain:
The board of transport commissioners advise as follows:
After a public hearing held by a representative of the board on June 25, 1958, the board authorized the removal of the agent and the appointment of a caretaker at Upsalquitch. On February 22, 1962, the board authorized the removal of the caretaker. In this connection, local representatives were interviewed by an official of the board.
Owing to the decline in passenger business, the passenger service on mixed trains between Riviere du Loup and Edmundston was discontinued during 1959.
Following a hearing held in Edmundston on February 9 and 10, 1960, the board granted the application of the Canadian National Railways to abandon the operation of the Connors subdivision between Clairs and Connors, effective not earlier than September 1, 1960, on not less than 30 days prior notice posted for the information of the public in the stations on the line.
Discontinuance of the station agents at Dalhousie and Lac Baker was authorized by the board following meetings held by a representative of the board in both these communities on March 26 and 29, 1962. In the case of Lac Baker the railway company is required to maintain a caretaker in lieu of an agent.


PITT MEADOWS, B.C. LANDING FIELD
Mr. Laing: In connection with the light airplane landing field at Pitt Meadows, B.C. (a) what is the contract

price on this project (b) what sum has already been spent (c) has work been suspended, or was work suspended, on any aspect of this project and, if so, why (d) before location at this point, did the Department of Transport receive any representation from the air industries council of B.C. and, if so, did they oppose location at Pitt Meadows (e) prior to a decision to locate at Pitt Meadows, were climatic and air records taken in the area?
Answer by: Mr. McBain:
(a)	$259,647.
(b)	$80,722.51 to September 29, 1962.
(c)	Dredging has been suspended for approximately four weeks owing to the sinking of the dredge during the storm on October 12, 1962. Other phases of the work are still in progress.
(d)	The air industries council of British Columbia opposed location at Pitt Meadows from the point of view of distance from the city and meteorological conditions. However, no site for an airport closer to Vancouver could be found which did not meet with strenuous opposition from the municipalities; and a survey of terminal weather conditions for a 12 month period determined that the weather at Pitt Meadows was slightly better than the weather at Vancouver international airport during the daylight hours.
(e)	Yes.


T.C.A.-PASSES TO MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT
Mr. Caoueiie: 1.	Has consideration been given by the government to the issuing of passes to members of the House of Commons for use on Trans-Canada Air Lines on the same basis as transportation is provided for members on Canadian railways?
2.	If so (a) what was the decision in this regard, and (b) what are the reasons for the decision?
Answer by: Mr. McBain:
1 and 2. This matter has been considered on several occasions in the past, and the conclusion was reached that such action would place an unreasonable financial burden on T.C.A.


* SECURITY INVESTIGATIONS OF MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT
Mr. Mafheson: Have the Royal Canadian Mounted Police maintained security files on, or conducted security investigations of, any members of parliament during the years 1958, 1959, 1960, 1961, and 1962?


Mr. Bell (Saint John-Alberf):: Mr. Speaker, it will be appreciated by the house that all Royal Canadian Mounted Police files on individuals are confidential and that many are secret. Consequently it is necessary to advise the hon. member that it would be contrary to the public interest to give specific answers to his question.
Questions


*DORVAL AIRPORT
Mr. Rouleau: 1.	Have airport authorities been given any directives concerning night air traffic control at Dorval airport and, if so, what are the directives given to the airport authorities concerning such control?
2.	Are further improvements likely to be made with respect to air traffic control in order to bring some relief to the population living in the vicinity of Dorval airport?


Mr. McBain:: 1.	(a) Special air traffic arrival and departure control procedures have been established which specify minimum operating altitudes and directions of flight to avoid, insofar as possible, the main residential areas of Montreal. Strict observance of these procedures during the take-off and climb, and approach and landing manoeuvres are assisting in reducing the disturbance, not only at the nearest communities underlying the flightways, but also at residential areas farther away from the airport. These procedures include the use of the preferential runway system. Runways are designated, by priority, to divert as many landing and take-off operations as possible, consistent with safety, from flight over residential areas adjacent to the airport. Whenever possible, traffic patterns, approaches and departures are made over water and/or open areas. Approaching aircraft are instructed to maintain an altitude of at least 2000 feet above ground level and to remain at this altitude for as long as possible before beginning descent on final approach to the airport.
(b)	The airlines are not permitted to schedule regular jet flights after midnight.
(c)	The use of Montreal international airport for technical stops by turbo-jet aircraft, other than those engaged in regular scheduled commercial flights serving Montreal, between 11 p.m. and 7 a.m. local time is not permitted. Late arrivals may be delayed until 7 a.m. as departures will not be permitted by airport authority except in very unusual or extenuating circumstances.
(d)	Local jet training flights between 10 p.m. and 7 a.m. are not permitted.
2.	Yes. The old northeast-southwest runway which has been lengthened by some 4000 feet will be reopened to traffic about December 5, 1962; the use of this runway in conjunction with the new parallel northeast-southwest runway and the other runways comprising the preferential runway system should enable a further measure of relief for the residential communities of the airport neighbourhood.


CAPE LAZO, VANCOUVER ISLAND, RADIO STATION
Mr. Barnett: 1.	Has the Cape Lazo radio station on the east coast of Vancouver island been relocated and, if so, what are the present and former locations?'
2.	Will the relocation of this radio station affect

Questions
the opportunities for observation and reporting of local weather conditions on the "fisherman's band" in any way and, if so, in what way?
Answer by: Mr. McBain:
1.	Operations ceased at Cape Lazo marine radio station on September 25, 1962, and were combined on that date with those provided by Comox aeradio station, 4.38 miles from the former location.
Former location Lat. 49 42 ION, Long. 124 51 40W. Present location Lat. 49 45 00N, Long. 124 56 39W.
2.	Transmissions of local weather observations will continue to be made on the "fisherman's bands".


GUYSBOROUGH AND ANTIGONISH COUNTIES, N.S.- NEW RADIO FACILITIES
Mr. Stewart: 1.	Are any new signal transmission or reception facilities now under construction, or proposed, in Guysborough and Antigonish counties in Nova Scotia and, if so, what is the purpose of each such station?
2.	From whom, and at what price, was each site purchased?
Answer by: Mr. McBain:
1.	One Decca navigator slave transmission station is at present under construction some seven miles north of the town of Antigonish. This station forms part of a marine navigational aid called the Cabot strait Decca chain, which is being constructed to give radio position-fixing coverage in the Cabot strait area.
2.	No land has yet been acquired but two parcels are under option as follows: 20.75 acres-Mr. Bernard A. Carrigan, 14.95 acres- Mr. John R. Boyd.


RAILWAY BOX CARS TREATED WITH REFLECTIVE MATERIAL
Mr. Peters: 1.	How many boxcars in Canada have been treated with "scotchlite" or other reflective material during 1960, 1961, and to date this year?
2.	What is the total amount paid by the federal government to this program and how much per box car?
3.	What has been the total cost to date of this project?
4.	What railways have participated, and how many cars in each case?
5.	Have any railways refused to participate and, if so, what action is contemplated?
Answer by: Mr. McBain:
The board of transport commissioners for Canada advise as follows:-
1.	13,737 cars were equipped with reflective markings during the years 1960 and 1961. Estimates filed by the various railway companies indicate that some 6,100 will be similarly equipped during the current year.
2.	Accounts have been received from various railways across Canada and payments

made from the railway grade crossing fund to date total $63,637.06. This amounts to an average of $3.51 per car paid from the railway grade crossing fund.
3.	The total cost of this work to date is $79,626.63. Of this amount, $63,637.06 has been paid from the railway grade crossing fund with the balance being paid by the railway companies concerned.
4.	The following is a summary of the railways which have participated since the program first started in 1959, showing the approximate number of cars completed up to
the end of 1961:
Canadian Pacific Railway Company 9,118
Canadian National Railways	 7,402
Grand Falls Central Railway ....	45
Northern Alberta Railways	 30
Ontario Northland Railway		338
Sydney & Louisburg Railway ....	20
Toronto, Hamilton & Buffalo Railway	 203
Algoma Central & Hudson Bay
Railway	 H
Canadian General Transit Co. Ltd. 426
Total	17,593
5.	All Canadian railway companies have co-operated with the board in applying reflective markings to their equipment in accordance with the terms of the orders issued.


BE AUHARN OIS LOCKS-USE BY PLEASURE CRAFT
Mr. Rock: 1.	What is the smallest size pleasure craft permitted to enter the seaway canal from lake St. Louis to lake St. Francis at Beauharnois locks?
2.	What are the charges for using these locks and canal for small pleasure craft?
3.	Is the government studying the possibility of building a second bridge across the Lachine canal between Lasalle and 6th Avenue, Lachine, to relieve the serious traffic congestion created by the present obsolete bridge?
Answer by: Mr. McBain:
The St. Lawrence seaway authority advises as follows:
1.	The smallest size pleasure craft permitted is 20 feet in over-all length or one ton in dead weight.
2.	Pleasure craft of under 350 tons pay a toll of $2 per lock for each passage.
3.	In conjunction with officials of the city of Lachine, traffic studies are being made at the Sixth avenue bridge with a view to improving traffic conditions there and to determine whether a new bridge is economically justified.


DORVAL AIRPORT, MONTREAL  PARKING REGULATIONS
Mr. Rock: 1.	What is the amount of rental per annum received by the government for the parking concession at the international airport at Dorval?
2.	What are the names of . the persons or corporation who have leased the parking concession?
3.	For what period of time has the parking concession lease been granted?
4.	What are the parking charges per hour and per day on this concession?
5.	What is the annual revenue of the D.O.T metered parking lot?
6.	What are the charges and fines on over parked cars at the D.O.T. metered parking lot?
7.	Where do taxis (other than Murray Hill), called by passengers from the airport, park their cars while waiting for their customers?
8.	What government body makes the rules and laws for parking and transport facilities at the airport?
9.	What police force enforces these traffic regulations and what court judges violators?
10.	Why are no cars allowed to park on the spacious parking lot in front of the airport post office?
11.	Why is there no drinking fountain on the main floor of the new air terminal building?
12.	What amount per year does the government receive for (a) the limousine concession (b) the bus service concession for passengers (c) the bus service concession for workers?
Answer by: Mr. McBain:
1.	The department received $210,284 in revenue from the parking concession at the Montreal international airport for the fiscal year 1961-62.
2.	Park-In Systems Limited presently operate the parking concession as a result of a public invitation to tender.
3.	The parking concession lease has been granted for a five year period ending November 30, 1966.
4.	The parking charges in the parking lot are as follows: 25 cents for the first two hours; 25 cents for each additional four hours thereafter; $1.50 maximum daily charge.
5.	Revenue from the D.O.T. metered parking lot for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1962 amounted to $76,962.
6.	The normal fine imposed under the airport vehicle control regulations for overparking in a metered area is $2, plus costs. However, on a summary conviction a fine of up to $50 may be imposed by the court.
7.	Taxis coming to the airport on call from customers may park near the building exists, provided they satisfy the police that they are there by arrangement rather than to solicit fares.
8.	Vehicle traffic at airports is controlled under provisions of the airport vehicle control regulations made under the government Property Traffic Act and the Department of Transport Act. The establishment of a ground
Questions
transportation business at an airport is governed by the airport concession operations regulations made under the authority of the Department of Transport Act.
9.	The Royal Canadian Mounted Police enforces traffic regulations. Prosecutions are made in the sessions of peace court in Montreal.
10.	Cars are not permitted to park in front of the airport post office (former domestic terminal building) because of traffic congestion resulting from truck operations at the air cargo terminal building, an extension of which is located close to the post office. The area must be kept free at all times to permit the movement of vehicle traffic.
11.	Action is being taken to provide drinking fountains on the main floor of the air terminal building.
12.	(a) The department receives a fee of $50,000 per annum for the limousine concession. (b) There is no separate concession for bus passengers, (c) The government receives no fee from the bus company for the carriage of workers to the airport. This service is provided by contract under which all employers at the airport share in the cost of the service.


DORVAL AIRPORT, MONTREAL  BUS SERVICE
Mr. Rock: Has the government ever requested the Montreal transportation commission to extend their bus routes to the Montreal international airport at Dorval and, if so, when, and what was the nature of the reply?
Answer by: Mr. McBain:
The government has not made a formal request to the Montreal transportation commission to extend their bus routes to the Montreal international airport at Dorval.
The position of the federal government is that the provision of transportation is a matter for consideration by the municipal authorities to provide facilities within their respective locales.
The department, with the co-operation of the .air lines, provides for the maintenance of a transportation station at the airport to meet the requirements of their scheduled flights from the airport, and the authorized carrier provides similar transportation from a depot in the city centre designated by the air lines as well as certain intermediate points. Because of the nature of this type of transportation, it is subject to the regulation of the Quebec provincial transportation board.


REBATE OF EMERGENCY SURCHARGES
Mr. Laing: 1.	Has a decision been taken to rebate, on all goods that were in transit June 25 the surcharges that were announced June 24 to meet the financial crisis and, if so, when was this decision taken?

Questions
2.	If the answer to part 1 is yes, (a) when were the offices of customs and excise notified (b) was the decision made after representations and, if so, what organizations made representations (c) was any representation made that such goods in transit June 25 would be sold at the old prevailing price (d) how many applications for rebate have been processed to date?
Answer by: Mr. Graffiey:
1.	Yes, on September 19, 1962.
2.	(a) September 19, 1962.
(b)	Yes. See list attached.
(c)	No.
(d)	Some thousands of applications for rebate are involved and the compilation of those that have been completed has not yet been made.
Firms, organizations and individuals from whom representations were received requesting remission of surcharges on goods in transit.
Acadia Distributors Limited, Moncton, N.B., The Aldan Company Limited, West-mount, P.Q., Alexanian & Sons Limited, Hamilton, Allied Markers Ltd., Willowdale, Ontario, Arlington Cycle & Sports Limited, Montreal, Artro Products, Montreal, Quebec, Atlantic Products Sales Corp., Preston, Ont., Atlantic Rug and Tapestry Company, Montreal, Associated Metals & Minerals Corp. of Canada Ltd., Montreal, Que.
Barcan Sweets Ltd., Montreal, Stephen I. Bardos, Toronto, Ont., Barton Tubes Limited, Burlington, Ont., Bentley's Cycle & Sports Limited, Montreal, Que., Best Brands Ltd., Montreal, Que., W. H. Bilbrough and Company, Toronto, Ont., Robert R. Boronow Limited, Toronto, Ont., Mayor of Brandon, Brandon, Manitoba, Buss Beauty Supply, Winnipeg, Manitoba.
Campbell Meat Markets Ltd., St. John's, Newfoundland, Canada Sand Papers Ltd., Plattsville, Ont., Canada Starch Co. Limited, Montreal, Que., Canadian Association of Equipment Distributors, Vancouver and Ottawa, Canadian Chamber of Commerce, Montreal, Que., Canadian Fairbanks-Morse Co. Ltd., Saint John, N.B., Canadian Importers and Traders Association Inc., Toronto, Ont., Canadian Keyes Fibre Company Limited, Hantsport, N.S., Canadian Pacific Railway, Montreal, Que., Canadian Pneumatic Tool Company, Toronto, Ont., Canadian Specialties Limited, Hamilton, Ont., Canadian Sumner Iron Works Ltd., Vancouver, B.C., Canerpa Ltd., Montreal, Que., Cantab Industries, Toronto, Ont., Carpet Trades (Canada) Limited, Toronto, Ont., Caulfield, Burns and Gibson, Limited, Toronto, Ont., Chemainus-Crofton and District Chamber of Commerce, Chemainus, B.C., Colonial Jute Products Inc., Montreal, Que., Consumers
[Mr. Lalng.l
Wholesale Tobacconists & Importers Ltd., Toronto, Ont., Cooper-Bessemer of Canada Limited, Edmonton, Alberta, M. H. Coupey & Co., Montreal, Que., Crown Electrical Manufacturing Limited, Brantford, Ont.
Dairy Supplies Ltd., Edmonton, Alberta,
A.	R. Davey Co. Ltd., Toronto, Ont., Dietrich-Collins Equipment Ltd., Vancouver, B.C., Driam Pipe (Canada) Limited, Toronto, Ont., Duder & Co. Ltd., Toronto, Ont., Tom Donaldson Ltd., Vancouver, B.C., F. J. Duggan, Toronto, Ont.
East India Traders Limited, Vancouver,
B.	C., Eastport Trading Co. Ltd., Montreal, Que., Elte & Sons Ltd., Toronto.
Federal Bolt and Nut Corporation Ltd., Toronto, Ont., The Food Broker's Association of Canada, Toronto, Ont., The Freedman Company Ltd., Montreal, Que.
Gateway Aviation Limited, Edmonton, Alberta, Gordon Import and Sales Co. Ltd., Montreal, M. I. Greisman and Son (Canada) Ltd., Toronto, Ont.
Frank Hacking (Canada) Ltd., Toronto, Ont., The Hamilton Chamber of Commerce, Hamilton, Ont., A. Harper Associates Inc., Montreal, Que., Harrisons & Crosfield (Canada) Ltd., Montreal, Que., Hollander Canada Ltd., Montreal, Que., Horton & Walsh Ltd., Saint John, N.B., Howell Warehouses Ltd., Toronto, Ont., J. S. Hudson, Vancouver, B.C.
International Food Distributors Corp., Montreal, Que., International Packers Canada Ltd., Toronto, Ont.
Jackson's Jeweller, Gananoque, Ont., J. Wilfred Johnson, Lacombe, Alberta.
H. G. Kalish & Co. Ltd., Montreal, Que., Kane Equipment, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Kass Bros. Ltd., Montreal, Que., Keystone Interiors Ltd., Brandon, Manitoba, Kitchener Auto Parts Ltd., Kitchener, Ont., Knit Goods Ltd., Montreal, Que., Koster Import Co., Montreal, Que., George J. Kutten, Montreal, Que.
The Lakefield Preparatory School, Lakefield, Ont., Le-mor Sales Ltd., Montreal, Que., Lil-liamar Scarves Inc., Montreal, Que., Lundy Fence Company Ltd., Toronto, Ont.
Machinery & Equipment Manufacturers' Association of Canada, Montreal, Que., D. G. Magidson Inc., Montreal, Que., H. Mallouk & Co. Ltd., Montreal, Que., Mardi Gras Distributing Corp., Montreal, Que., Max Meyer & Co. of Canada Ltd., Toronto, Ont., J. A. &
C.	H. McDonald Ltd., Vancouver, B.C., McKenzie Food Products Ltd., Winnipeg, Manitoba, McLarens Limited, Hamilton, Ont., Mercury Wire & Nail Co. Ltd., Montreal, Que., Mill Mark Imports Ltd., New Toronto, Mont-fort Novelties Ltd., Montreal, Que., Morris Import Sales Inc., Montreal, Que., Morton Sales Company Inc., Montreal, Que., H. E. Mott Co. Ltd., Brantford, Ont., John F. Mus-senden Ltd., Vancouver, B.C.

National Garment Manufacturers' Association, Toronto, Ont., National Jewellery & Importing Co., Winnipeg, Manitoba., Neckwear Ltd., Montreal, Que., Noma Lites Canada Ltd., Toronto, Ont.
Oceanwide Agencies Ltd., Montreal, Que., Neil S. O'Donnell Ltd., Toronto, Ont., Onward Manufacturing Company Ltd., Kitchener, Ont., Owatonna Tool Co., Montreal, Que., Rubery Owen, Ltd., Toronto, Ont.
Parsons-Steiner Ltd., Toronto, Claude G. Pearson, Tilbury, Ont., Phillips Electrical Co. Ltd., Vancouver, B.C., Charles Placek, Toronto, Ont., Popular Fabrics Inc., Montreal, Que., Premier Cutlery Company Ltd., Toronto, Ont., Provisioners Maritimes Ltd., Armadale, N.S.
Radley Cotton Mills Ltd., Toronto, Regal Stationery Co. Ltd., Toronto, Regiscope Services (Alberta) Ltd., Calgary, Alberta, P. L. Robertson Manufacturing Co. Ltd., Milton, Ont., Reynolds Smith Corporation Limited, Waterloo, Ont., Robot of Canada, Toronto, Ont., Roosevelt Trading Co. Canada Limited, Montreal, Que., Rootes Motors (Canada) Limited, Toronto, Ont.
Sealand Sales Ltd., Vancouver, B.C., Segal's (Michael) Inc., Montreal, Que., Shoe Corporation of Canada Ltd., Toronto, Ont., Sylvania Electric (Canada) Ltd., Drummondville, Que.,
A.	H.C. Smith Reg'd., Quebec, P. Q., E. D. Smith & Sons Limited, Winona, Ont., Sportset of Canada Ltd., Montreal, Que., Standard Triumph (Canada) Ltd., Toronto, Ont., Stroll-O-Chair Distributors Limited, Willowdale, Ont., Studebaker-Packard of Canada Ltd., Hamilton, Ont., Sunclo Sales Ltd., Don Mills, Ont., Sunnen Products Co. Ltd., Chatham, Ont., Supreme Aluminum Industries Ltd., Scarborough, Ont.
Taka Imports, Montreal, Que., Tek Hughes Brushes Limited, Port Credit, Ont., Textile Fabric Distributors Assoc. Inc., New York, N.Y., Textile Wholesalers Association, Montreal, Que., Tip Top Products Co., Newmarket, Ont., L. C. Tobias Co. Ltd., Toronto, W. M. Toland Limited, Vancouver, B.C., H. L. Turner Ltd., Blenheim, Ont.
Vancouver Board of Trade, Vancouver,
B.	C., Variety Textile Manufacturers Ltd., Montreal, Que., The Viger Co. Limited, Montreal, Que.
Russ Waters Florist Supply Ltd., Toronto, Ont., Webster and Horsfall (Canada) Ltd., Three Rivers, Que., E. A. Wells Limited, Toronto, Ont., Westminster Paper Company Limited, New Westminster, B.C., Whitgax Ltd., Brantford, Ont., Wilson Electric Supplies Ltd., Edmonton, Alberta, Wirth Limited, Montreal, Que., F. W. Woolworth Co. Ltd., Toronto, Ont.
Questions
Ye Olde English Bakery Ltd., Vancouver, B.C.
Zintex Supply Co. Ltd., Montreal, Que.


DISCONTINUANCE OF TRAINS, SASKATOON-VANCOUVER
Mr. Berger: 1.	Is it the intention of the Canadian National Railways to discontinue trains 3 and 4 between Saskatoon and Vancouver on or about the 30th of October, 1962, and, if so, when are these trains to be discontinued?
2.	Have any reasons for discontinuing trains 3 and 4 been given by the C.N.R. to the employees affected and, if so, (a) when (b) what reasons were given?
3.	How many employees will be displaced as a result?
4.	What volume of passenger traffic was carried on trains 3 and 4 in 1961 and for the first nine months of 1962?
Answer by: Mr. McBain:
The management of Canadian National Railways advise as follows:
1.	Yes.
2.	Discussions were held with employee representatives in mid-September. The reason given for the adjustment is that during the off-season, passengers do not patronize Nos. 3 and 4 and prefer to travel by other means or on the supercontinental Nos. 1 and 2. See also answer given to question No. 176 in Hansard of Wednesday, October 24.
3.	Any employees involved will exercise seniority to other positions in passenger, freight or yard service in accordance with the wage agreement.
4.	In 1961 during the off season general average carryings were approximately 30 and the same percentage has attained in the off season period in 1962.


C.N.R. PASSENGER TRAFFIC
Mr. Berger: 1.	How many passengers did the C.N.R. carry in 1961, and what percentage of capacity did this represent?
2.	How many passengers did the C.N.R. carry in the first eight months of 1962, and what percentage of capacity did this represent?
3.	What was the C.N.R.'s revenue from passenger traffic (a) in 1961 and (b) in the first eight months of 1962?
4.	What was the C.N.R.'s net profit, if any, on (a) passenger traffic in 1961 and (b) in the first eight months of 1962?
Answer by: Mr. McBain:
The management of Canadian National Railways advise as follows:
1 and 2. Information is not readily available to answer the question in the form asked; passenger carryings 1961-12,105,000; eight months of 1962-8,233,058.
3.	1961-$34,793,498; eight months of 1962- $24,150,000.
4.	None.

Questions


THE VICTORIA CROSS
Mr. Peters: 1.	For what purpose was the Victoria Cross established?
2.	How many have been issued to Canadians?
3.	How many Canadian recipients are still living, and what is the name and address of each?
4.	What considerations accrue to the holders of a Victoria Cross?
Answer by: Mr. Churchill:
1.	The Victoria Cross, the highest award for gallantry, was instituted by Queen Victoria at the close of the Crimean campaign, 1856. It is a Maltese cross, and is awarded, irrespective of rank, to members of any branch of Her Majesty's forces, for "most conspicuous bravery or some daring or pre-eminent act of valour or self-sacrifice or extreme devotion to duty in the presence of the enemy".
2.	94.
3.	26:
World War I: Alexander P. Brereton, V.C., Frederick G. Coppins, V.C., Thomas Dinesen, V.C., Herman J. Good, V.C., The Hon. Milton F. Gregg, V.C., C.B.E., M.C., Robert H. Hanna,
V.	C., Frederick M. W. Harvey, V.C., M.C., John C. Kerr, V.C., William H. Metcalf, V.C., M.M., Coulson N. Mitchell, V.C., M.C., George H. Mullin, V.C., M.M., The Hon. George R. Pearkes, V.C., C.B., D.S.O., M.C., Thomas Ricketts, V.C., H. H. Robson, V.C., Charles Rutherford, V.C., M.C., M.M., Robert Shank-land, V.C., D.C.M., Harcus Strachan, V.C., M.C., Raphael Zengel, V.C., M.M.
World War II: David V. Currie, V.C., John
W.	Foote, V.C., John K. Mahony, V.C., C.D., Charles C. I. Merritt, V.C., Ernest A. Smith, V.C., Frederick A. Tilston, V.C., Frederick G. Topham, V.C., Paul Triquet, V.C.
4.	Annuities to recipients of the Victoria Cross during world war I are paid by the United Kingdom government.
The government of Canada pays an annuity of $300 to those who were awarded the Victoria Cross while serving with the Canadian forces during world war II. If a recipient of the Victoria Cross below commissioned rank is awarded a disability pension or war veterans allowance, he is paid, in addition to his annuity of $300, a per diem allowance of 12Jc.


APPOINTMENT FROM B.C. TO SUPREME COURT
Mr. Berger: Is it the intention of the government to appoint a judge to the Supreme Court of Canada from British Columbia to replace the Hon. C. H. Locke?

Answer by: Mr. Bell (Saint John-Alberl):
When a decision is taken an announcement will be made.


CANADA SAVINGS BONDS COSTS
Mr. Thompson: 1.	With reference to the report of the royal commission on government organization concerning the cost of selling, registering, paying interest on, and redeeming Canada savings bonds, have any steps been taken to reduce all or any of these expenses in the current fiscal year?
2.	What is the actual cost for 1961 and the estimated cost in 1962 of (a) selling (b) registering (c) paying interest on, and (d) redeeming Canada savings bonds?
Answer by: Mr. Graffley:
1.	Yes.
2.	The actual costs of the 1961 series were:
(a)	$11,187,577
(b)	, (c) and (d): These costs cannot be calculated for any individual bond issue.
It is not possible at this time to estimate costs of selling the 1962 series.


SARNIA, ONT. AIR SERVICE
Mr. Foy: 1.	Has the licence of Nordair Limited, providing passenger air service between the city of Sarnia and other cities on the seaway route, been suspended and, if so, has consideration been given to the feasibility of providing alternate service?
2.	Has Trans-Canada Air Lines an interest in continuing air service for the city of Sarnia?
3.	Have representations been received from the Sarnia city council in this regard and, if so, (a) have arrangements been made to hear such representations (b) if no arrangements have been made for such a hearing, will the Minister of Transport undertake immediate steps to arrange a hearing because of the urgent need for air service for the city of Sarnia?
Answer by: Mr. McBain:
1.	Yes, effective August 15, 1962. The air transport board order suspending the service provided a period up to not later than October 15, 1962, for the filing of complete submissions with the secretary of the board by any person wishing to oppose continuation of the suspension or to suggest measures to improve the adverse financial position of the service.
2.	T.C.A. has not hitherto expressed any interest in making an application to provide direct air service to the city of Sarnia.
3.	The Sarnia city council has filed a representation with the air transport board and such representations are being considered by the board. If it considers that a public hearing is required, it will give public notice to that effect.


POSSIBILITY OF EXPLOSIONS FROM USE OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS
Mr. Berger: 1.	Has the government received any opinion from its scientific, military or other advisers regarding the question whether anti-aircraft missiles armed with nuclear warheads or antimissile missiles armed with nuclear warheads, directed against aircraft or missiles bearing atomic bombs, would, upon hitting their targets cause (a) a nuclear explosion (b) no nuclear explosion?
2.	Has the government received any such opinion regarding the question whether, in the same circumstances, anti-aircraft missiles armed with nuclear warheads or antimissile missiles armed with nuclear warheads, directed against aircraft or missiles bearing hydrogen bombs, would cause
(a)	a nuclear explosion (b) no nuclear explosion?
3.	Has the government accepted any of the aforementioned opinions as conclusive and, if so, which opinion or opinions?
Answer by: Mr. Harkness:
1 and 2. The government has been advised on these questions by responsible military and scientific authorities. The advice received is to the effect that a relatively small nuclear defensive weapon, upon detonating as a direct hit or near miss, on the bomber or other vehicle carrying an atomic or thermonuclear (hydrogen) bomb has a high probability of neutralizing the bomb with no resultant nuclear explosion.
3.	The government has no reason to doubt the validity of the advice it has received from its several responsible advisers.


CLOSING OF C.N.R. LINE, PLACENTIA-ARGENTIA JUNCTION, NFLD.
Mr. Cashin: Has the government received any representations opposing the proposed closing of the C.N.R. branch line from Placentia to Argentia Junction?
Answer by: Mr. McBain:
The board of transport commissioners for Canada advise as follows:
The board of transport commissioners for Canada has received an application from the Canadian National Railways, dated October 10, 1962, seeking permission to abandon the Placentia subdivision which comprises 1.4 miles of track running between Placentia and Argentia Junction in the province of Newfoundland. No objections to this proposal have been filed with the board up to the present time.


CONSUMPTION OF DAIRY PRODUCTS
Mr. Maiheson: 1.	What was the annual per capita consumption in volume or weight since 1945 of (a) fluid milk
(b)	butter (c) cheese?
2.	What was the annual per capita consumption in value in fixed dollars since 1945 of all dairy products?
Questions
Answer by: Mr. Hees:
1. Annual per capita consumption, 1945
to 1961:	Fluid	Total	TotalMilk1	Butters	Cheese3Year	lb.	lb.	lb.1945 	.. 475.53	28.13	5.931946 	. . . 474.57	24.06	5.061947 	. .. 454.06	26.20	6.191948 	,.. 424.21	26.69	4.841949 	, .. 422.67	22.11	5.271950 	. .. 421.80	22.33	5.581951 	. .. 415.78	21.22	5.711952 	. .. 381.81	20.69	5.821953 	... 387.01	20.65	6.181954 	... 388.27	20.40	6.391955 	. .. 396.32	20.27	6.661956 	. .. 405.10	20.51	6.431957 	. .. 400.17	20.28	6.771958 	. .. 396.08	19.13	6.861959 	... 393.46	18.13	7.001960 	. .. 393.20	16.98	7.211961 	... 385.27	16.43	7.36^-Includes	fluid sales	plus milk	and creamconsumed in	farm homes in terms	of milk.
includes creamery, farm and whey butter. *''Includes Cheddar and other factory cheese consumed as such and process cheese.
2.	The dominion bureau of statistics does not prepare estimates of the per capita consumption of dairy products in constant dollar terms. However, estimates are available of per capita consumption of total dairy products in terms of pounds of milk. If the original request was intended to obtain information which would permit the measurement of change in per capita consumption, this series might be satisfactory. This series is as follows for the years 1945 to 1961 inclusive.
Per Capita Consumption Total Dairy Products (in terms of milk (3.5% butterfat))
1945 			 1,233
1946 			 1,124
1947 			 1,179
1948 			 1,151
1949 			 1,050
1950 			 1,063
1951 			 1,034
1952 			 993
1953 			 999
1954 			 994
1955 			 1,014
1956 			 1,028
1957 			 1,022
1958 			 990
1959 			 966
1960 			 943
1961 			 921

Questions


CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION-J. K. ABBOTT
[Stage Direction]
Question No. 385
Mr. Howard:: 1.	Is one J. K. Abbott employed in any capacity within the Department of Citizenship and Immigration and, if so, what are his (a) duties (b) responsibilities (c) qualifications (d) salary and expenses?
2.	Upon what date did he assume his present position, and was it as a result of a competition; and, (a) if as a result of a competition, who were the members of the promotional board (b) if it was not as a result of a competition, by what method was he so appointed?
3.	What previous positions, with an indication as to duties and responsibilities, has Mr. Abbott held in the public service of Canada, for how long, and at what salary in each case?
4.	Does Mr. Abbott have any jurisdiction or involvement with the alleged conspiracy to bring people of Chinese origin to Canada illegally, and, if so, what, in detail, is his involvement, and when did it commence?
5.	Has Mr. Abbott ever been reprimanded, cautioned, or otherwise spoken to by any of his superiors for using hidden microphones for the purpose of surreptitiously recording discussions with, or interrogations of (a) other employees within the Department of Citizenship and Immigration or (b) anyone else and, if so, what form did the said reprimand, caution, or discussion take?
Answer by: Mr. McGee:
1.	Yes.
(a)	and (b)-Mr. Abbott is responsible to the deputy minister for the implementation of an inspectional service for all branches of the department; to supervise and direct employees engaged in inspectional duties and to plan inspectional programs for all branches of the department; to provide the deputy minister with periodic reports on the effectiveness of departmental and branch policies and regulations; to provide detailed reports for the consideration of the deputy minister on improvements made in policies, procedures, proficiency, productivity and similar matters; to make recommendations concerning forms design and control; to report on employees engaged on various duties; to report on staff training requirements and to perform other related duties.
(c)	Qualifications-Two and one half years university-political science and economics and has taken several government administration courses. Second world war service 1940-1945; R.C.A.F. pilot. Officer commanding university air training corps units at Acadia and McGill Universities. Personnel counsellor-research in directorate of personnel counselling on occupational analyses. Then in rehabilitation directorate as occupational counsellor. Progressively responsible administrative experience in the public service since 1945.
(d)	$13,800 and normal travelling expenses when on duty away from his headquarters.

2.	April 1, 1959, by competition.
(a)	Board members Laval Fortier, then deputy minister of citizenship and immigrations; H. M. Jones, director of Indian affairs branch and W. R. Baskerville, director of the immigration branch.
(b)	Not applicable.
3.	Civil service commission examiner, civil service commission, October, 1945 to March 1952. Salary-$4,580. Chief of personnel, Department of Citizenship and Immigration, April, 1952 to March 1959. Salary-$9,060.
4.	Yes; as part of his duties as director of inspection services of the department; since the date of his appointment to his present post in 1959.
5.	Since he has never, at any time, made use of hidden microphones or any similar devices for any of the purposes mentioned, the answer is in the negative.


NASS RIVER, B.C.  INDIAN FISHING
Mr. Howard: 1.	Since January 1, 1957, has there been any evidence of flagrant fishing activity by Indians in the Nass river area in running salmon spawning stocks down river to buyers outside the commercial fishing boundary and, if so, what are the details surrounding this evidence?
2.	Have any charges been laid as a result thereof and, if so, how many charges against how many people, and upon what dates?
Answer by: Mr. McPhillips:
1.	Yes. The problem exists during the period of peak fishing activity, July-Septem-ber, when fish buying camps are located in the area. It developed in the past decade when high prices created greater incentive for illegal actions and effort to break the law. Fishery officers in their special patrols carried out a good deal of public relations work. The illegal activities have been confined mainly to the younger men and do not meet with approval of the elders and councillors of the villages. Indeed, officers have received assistance from councillors. There is a lessening of effort at illegal practice and there is good reason to believe the public relations work by fishery officers is having the desired effect.
2.	Yes.
No. of
Year	Offence	Charges	Trial	People1957 1958 1959	Sept.	8	1	Sept. 14	1Sept.	19	1	Oct. 9	11960	July	25	5	Oct. 1	2Aug.	24	3	Oct. 12	11961	June	26	1	June 26	1Aug.	15	2	Aug. 19	2Aug.	15	2	Aug. 26	11962	July	4	2	July 6	1


R.C.A.F. STATIONS AND OFFICERS
Mr. Dupuis: 1.	How many R.C.A.F. stations are there in Canada?
2.	Where is each of these stations located, and what are the names of each officer?
3.	How many of these officers are proficient in both official languages of Canada?
4.	How many R.C.A.F. officers, speaking English only, are stationed in the province of Quebec?
Answer by: Mr. Sevigny:
I have discussed this matter with the hon. member for St. Jean-Iberville-Napierville, who has agreed to reword his question.


Mr. Speaker:: Withdrawn.
Order discharged and question withdrawn.


* GRATUITIES TO FIREMEN
Miss LaMarsh: 1.	Does the Department of National Revenue exempt from income tax any payment made by Ontario municipalities as a gratuity to volunteer firemen and, if so, on what basis?
2.	Does the department exempt from income tax any payment made by Ontario municipalities to professional full time firemen as a gratuity for their volunteer service beyond the hours of their employment and, if so, on what basis?
3.	Does the department differentiate between payments made to such professional firemen for volunteer service who receive a gratuity individually by cheque from an Ontario municipality and such a professional fireman paid a gratuity for volunteer service by distribution of funds based upon a point system from a volunteer fire department, which funds are derived from the municipality and, if so, on what basis?


Mr. Flemming (Vicloria-Carlelon):: 1.	Section 5(1) (b) (viii) of the Income Tax Act excludes from income of a volunteer fireman any amount up to $300 received by him in a taxation year from a government, municipality or other public authority as an allowance for expenses incurred by him in respect of the discharge of his duties as a volunteer fireman. Where amounts in excess of $300 are received in a taxation year, the excess is included in income, as are any amounts received as salary, wages, stipends, honoraria or gratuities.
2.	No.
3.	No.


*QU1DE VIDI HARBOUR DREDGING, ST. JOHN'S NFLD.
Mr. Tucker: Has the government given consideration to the advisability of dredging the entrance to Quide Vidi harbour in St. John's, Newfoundland and, if so, (a) has any decision been made in this regard (b) when will work commence?


Mr. McCleave:: Following a request received on the 22nd day of February, 1961,
Questions
from James A. McGrath, M.P., the government began giving consideration to the dredging of some 250 cubic yards of solid rock and 1,300 cubic yards of class B material, to provide a 30-foot wide entrance channel having five feet of water at low tide.
(a)	Yes.
(b)	Work will depend on the provision of funds in the estimates of 1963-64.


* WEEKLY LISTS OF NEW CANADIAN CITIZENS, TORONTO
Mr. Ryan: Are representatives of political parties now provided with copies of weekly lists of new Canadian citizens by the citizenship court in Toronto and if not, when, and why was this practice discontinued?


Mr. McGee:: No. This practice was discontinued on April 12, 1962, since the procedures of making this information available varied between the different courts of Canadian citizenship. Arrangements are now being made to instal a glass-covered bulletin board in each court. It is planned to post, a few days prior to each citizenship ceremony, the names and addresses of those who are to receive certificates of Canadian citizenship.


WINTER WORKS PROJECTS, NOVA SCOTIA
Mr. Stewart: 1.	How many projects were carried out during the winter of 1961-62 under the municipal winter works incentive program in each of the several provinces?
2.	What share of the costs of these projects in each of the provinces was paid by the government of Canada?
3.	What projects were undertaken in Nova Scotia?
4.	What was the total cost of each of these projects; and, in each case, what amount was paid by the government of Canada?
Answer by: Mr. Hales:
1. The numbers of projects accepted under the municipal winter works program 1961-62
were as follows:
British Columbia	747
Alberta	918
Saskatchewan	1404
Manitoba	276
Ontario	1507
Quebec	2559
New Brunswick	263
Nova Scotia	68
Prince Edward Island	53
Newfoundland	391
Yukon Territory	6
Northwest Territories	19
Indian Bands	58
Total	8269
2. 50 per cent of direct payroll costs.
[Ur. Hales.]
Estimated cost of project	Estimated Federal Government	Federalduring period	share of	Government3 and 4	of program	Payroll Costs	PaymentsBerwick	Bridgewater	
Cape Breton County Cumberland County
Digby	
Glace Bay	
Halifax (City)...



Halifax (County)

Inverness
Kings (County) Liverpool	
Mulgrave	
New Glasgow..
Installation of sewer	
Installation of sewer	
Renovation of fire hall for town office	
Construction of municipal building	
Brushing rural roads	
Improvement to dump site	
Clearing property around town reservoir	
Clearing and brushing on roads	
Construction of sewers	
Installation of watermains	
Reconstruction of streets	
Installation of sewer	
Reconstruction of street	
Reconstruction of street	
Road construction	
Road construction	
Installation of sewer	
Road construction	
Road construction	
Road construction	
Park improvements	
Construction of traffic island	
Sodding park area	
Construction of retaining wall	
Installation of watermain	
Installation of watermain extension	
Installation of watermain extension	
Dam improvements	
Installation of watermain extension	
Installation of sanitary sewer	
Installation of sanitary sewer	
Installation of sanitary sewer	
Installation of sewer	
Road widening	
Installation of water pipe	
Construction of storage vault and committee rooms
Installation of sewer storm drain	
Street paving	
Installation of water and sewer system	
Sidewalk construction	
Installation of watermain	
Installation of watermain and hydrant	
Renovation of town hall	

5.000
4.150
25.000
200,000
3.000 600
1,200 1,200 18,600 10,198
24.500 4,800
21,200
20.000
8.000
10,000
18.500 31,000
5.000 21,450
6.500
4.000
4.000
12,100
4.000 8,945
15.150
49.500 6,837 8,143
19,381
7,695
2,100
1,076
1,400
5.500
6.000
29.000
40.000
10.000
6,170
14.500 35,000
1,440
2.500 45,000
1,300
500
2.500 1,210 6,120
2,130
2.475 1,950
2.475 1,845 3,090 1,200
10,725
3.000 750
1,350
2,400
900
1,270
7,433
2,073
4.250 2,085
390
1.250 1,550 2,900
5.000
1.000
1.500
6,000
328.50
nil
1.518.41
5.568.10
1.177.10
136.00
454.00
448.20 1.785.08
r.il
nil
707.99
174.01 841.41 nil
107.25
nil
750.05
nil
8.761.41
2.637.83 432.29 658.49 362.90
210.79 792.27
1,270.18
5,832.62
7S7.64
1,196.14
1.405.79 1,473.28
nil
389.80 390.00
nil
1.116.83
339.21
4.912.80 446.70 116.72
94.62
1,136.92
1020	HOUSE OF COMMONS
Questions
New Waterford

Oxford	
Parrsboro	
Port Hawkesbury	
Richmond (Rural Municipality) Springhill	
it
Sydney	
ft
it
Sydney Mines. Trenton	
it
Truro	
Yarmouth_____
Street construction	
Curb and gutter construction	
Drainage improvements	
Street construction	
Reconstruction of streets	
Street improvements	
Installation of sewer	
Paving streets	
Bridge construction	
Preparing street base	
Installation of water and sewer mains	
Installation of water and sewer mains	
Water system improvements	
Drainage improvements, sidewalk construction..
Installation of water mains	
Drainage improvements	
Construction of a culvert	
Landscaping municipal park	
Installation of waterline extension	
Park development	
Park development	
Park development	
Clearing brush in park	
Installation of water distribution line	
Construction of storage shed	
Totals	
675	75	230.0016,320	5,610	3,109.921,250	162	485.004,130	607	1,312.508,045	1,092	670.001,894	497	796.501,800	617	1,119.0041,925	14,674	2,539.06611	58	58.404,000	1,000	187.0726,500	3,500	1,467.437,000	1,500	1,354.563,300	1,100	93.534,500	2,000	1,578.5432,873	4,373	1,422.652,500	850	278.662,500	500	209.002,800	500	1,849.801,125	125	nil3,000	1,500	1,533.253,000	1,500	1,565.006,000	3,000	3,116.004,500	2,000	1,385.872,500	500	nil17,500	4,000	1,234.22
930,143
187,929
76,469.92

Questions

Questions


C.B.C. OPERATION &quot;GAIHURST&quot;-COST
Mr. Perron: What was the cost to the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation of the "Gaihurst" operation in the spring of 1962?
Answer by: Mr. Halpenny:
I am informed by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation that it is not considered to be in the public interest to divulge information as to program costs as it would affect the position of the corporation in the competitive business in which it is engaged.


*BEAUCEVILLE, QUE., POST OFFICE
Mr. Perron: 1.	What decision has been taken by the Minister of Public Works with respect to the construction of a post office at Beauceville?
2.	What was the purchase price of the land required for the said post office?


Robert Jardine McCleave: 1.	The construction of a post office at Beauceville will depend on approval of funds by parliament.
2.	$16,000.


TARIFF BOARD REPORT ON OILSEEDS
Mr. Thomas: When does the Minister of Finance expect to receive a report from the tariff board concerning tariff rates on oilseeds and vegetable oils, including soyabeans, in reply to his reference referred to in his budget speech of December 20, 1960, as reported on pages 1012-13 of Hansard for that date, and referred to again by the minister at pages 1431-2 of Hansard for January 26, 1961?-
Answer by: Mr. Grafftey:
I have consulted the chairman of the tariff board and he informs me that work with respect to this reference is well advanced, and barring unforeseen circumstances he expects to submit a report before next spring.


FARMERS AND FARM INCOME
Mr. Legare: 1.	What is the approximate number of farmers in each of the ten provinces of Canada?
2.	What was the average income of farmers in each of the provinces for the years 1957-58, 1958-59, 1959-60, 1960-61 and 1961-62?
Answer by: Mr. Hees:
1.	There are many operators of census farms who are classified as being employed in other occupations. According to the monthly labour force survey of September 22, 1962, there were 441,000 "own-account" workers and employees in agriculture in Canada.
The number of farms (1961 census) provides a very rough measure of number of farmers.


TABLE 1.-NUMBER OF FARMS IN CANADA1
[Stage Direction]
Census	Commercial
Province	Farms1 2	Farms3
Newfoundland	
Prince Edward Island	
Nova Scotia	
New Brunswick	
Quebec	
Ontario	
Manitoba	
Saskatchewan	
Alberta	
British Columbia	
Yukon and Northwest Territories
1,752	456
7,335	4,530
12,518	4,939
11,786	5,116
95,777	62,497
121,333	90,345
43,306	33,522
93,924	82,285
73,212	58,698
19,934	10,902
26	3
Total
480,903	353,293
1	Source: Census of agriculture 1961.
2	A census farm in the 1961 census was defined as a holding of one acre or more with the sales of agricultural products during the past twelve months valued at $50 or more.
8 Commercial farms include all farms reporting $1,200 or more sales of agricultural products for a 12 month period (excluding institutional-type farms, i.e., experimental, jail, etc.).
[Stage Direction]
Questions
The latest available figures on number of farmers, by provinces, are for 1951 as the 1961 census data are not yet available.

[Stage Direction]
Provinces
Total	Male Female
Canada	
Newfoundland	
Prince Edward Island
Nova Scotia	
New Brunswick	
Quebec	
Ontario	
Manitoba	
Saskatchewan	
Alberta	
British Columbia...
545,021	536,929	8,0922,438	2,369	098,692	8,570	12215,386	15,072	31417,661	17,412	249109,047	107,814	1,233132,803	131,006	1,79749,904	49,078	826108,9S0	107,408	1,57282,076	80,791	1,28518,034	17,409	625
1 Source: 1951 census of Canada, vol. IV, labour force.
2.	Estimates of income to farmers as given in table 3 do not include income from off-farm employment and therefore are not true figures of the income received by farmers. In view of the diverse choice of "number of farms" and "income of farmers", average income is not calculated. However, farm cash income and farm net income are available on a calendar year basis.
TABLE 3-FARM CASH INCOME1 ('000 dollars)
Province	1957	1958	1959	1960	1961Prince Edward Island	
24,476	27,773	28,307	29,141	24,207Nova Scotia	
41,956	41,738	42,766	44,046	45,701New Brunswick	
43,897	45,703	43,759	48,106	42,164Quebec	
383,341	420,989	420,276	415,265	444,992Ontario	
790,199	854,807	855,542	869,329	899,974Manitoba	
199,767	223,144	230,772	223,149	242,136Saskatchewan	
537,283	573,654	564,179	550,751	598,055Alberta	
436,346	484,381	481,141	474,700	527,836British Columbia	
116,077	122,426	124,448	127,051	133,480Canada2	
2,573,341	2,794,615	2,791,190	2,781,538	2,958,5451	Farm cash income from the sale of farm products, including participation payments and subsidies.2	Data not available for Newfoundland or Yukon and Northwest Territories.
TABLE 4.-FARM NET INCOME1 ('000 dollars)
Province	1957	1958	1959	1960	1961Prince Edward Island	
9,542	12,379	12,218	13,571	7,477Nova Scotia	
16,143	15,101	14,883	15,281	14,524New Brunswick	
20,499	19,659	16,639	21,365	12,350Quebec	
185,035	203,699	191,848	189,326	194,706Ontario	
330,127	383,002	316,252	327,412	336,211Manitoba	
74,835	136,181	107,833	110,040	61,441Saskatchewan	
183,277	245,085	240,862	352,623	114,442Alberta	
185,640	264,086	242,781	233,765	233,598British Columbia	
53,170	58,407	56,047	56,221	58,926Canada2	
1,058,268	1,337,599	1,199,363	1,319,604	1,033,6751	Net farm income is obtained from deducting operating expenses and depreciation charges from gross farm income. Gross farm income is made up of cash income from the sale of farm products, income in kind (farm home consumption of food and rental value of home) and supplementary payments (i.e., prairie farm assistance).2	Data not available for Newfoundland or Yukon and the Northwest Territories.
Questions

Mr. Legare: Does the government intend to establish an office of the Farm Credit Corporation at Rimouski with at least one resident inspector to serve the lower St. Lawrence region and, if so, at what date will the said decision become effective?
Answer by: Mr. Pigeon:
The Farm Credit Corporation advises that consideration is being given to the opening of a farm credit office in the lower St. Lawrence region but a decision as to its location and date of opening has not as yet been made.


*BUCTOUCHE BAR, N.S. LIGHTHOUSE
Mr. Crossman: 1.	In what year was a new lighthouse constructed on Buctouche Bar, Kent county, New Brunswick?
2.	Were public tenders called for the construction of this lighthouse and (a) if so, how many tenders were received, from whom, and in what amounts (b) if public tenders were not called, were private tenders asked for and, if so, who submitted tenders and in what amounts?


James Alexander McBain: 1.	1958.
2.	Public notices, advertising that tenders were requested, were posted in the post offices at Buctouche, Shediac and Richibuctou, N.B. In addition, tenders were invited from a list of known interested contractors.
Two tenders were received and the contract was awarded to the lowest tenderer, Mr. Leo Leblanc, in the amount of $7,760.


MONTFORT, QUE., POSTMISTRESS
Mr. Drouin: 1.	Was one Mrs. Wilfrid Tasse of Montfort (Argenteuil) dismissed as postmistress in Montfort and, if so, for what reason?
2.	Was there any investigation made and, if so, by whom?
3.	What were the findings of this investigation? Answer by: Mrs. Fairclough:
1.	Yes, for polictical partisanship.
2.	Yes, by the Postmaster General.
3.	Postmaster admitted guilt.


*FARM CREDIT CORPORATION PAMPHLET
Mr. Drouin: Is the government considering the advisability of having distributed to farmers, through the post offices or otherwise, the advertising pamphlet "Credit for Profit" published by the Farm Credit Corporation?
(Translation):


Mr. Pigeon:: Mr. Speaker, I am informed by the Canadian Farm Credit Corporation that this publication was distributed to agronomists, provincial farm representatives, municipal councils and at public meetings of farmers across the country.
[Mr. Hees.l
Over 30,000 copies were mailed directly to farmers. More copies were sent also to 150 daily, monthly or semi-monthly English newspapers and to 37 French newspapers.
The publication was also distributed to 750 English weeklies and to 106 French weeklies serving farmers in Canada.
And the availability of this publication was emphasized by an intensive advertising campaign in the 13 main farm newspapers in Canada.
To date, over 123,000 copies were distributed across the country and a revised edition, in both languages, is being prepared.
(Text):


OIL COMPANIES CHARGED UNDER COMBINES ACT
Mr. Herridge: 1.	Have any U.S. controlled or owned oil companies operating in Canada ever been charged under the Combines Investigation Act and, if so, what are the details?
2.	Does any evidence exist with regard to price fixing by oil companies in Canada and, if so, what are the details?
Answer by: Mr. Bell (Saint John-Alberl):
1.	In reports of the restrictive trade practices commission relating to oil companies operating in Canada, the extent of control or ownership of such companies by United States companies has not been the subject of the inquiries so that it is not possible on the basis of reports of the commission to state whether such ownership or control exists. The following oil company operating in Canada, however, was charged under the Combines Investigation Act: The British American Oil Company Limited, charged at Toronto under section 34(2) of the Act and acquitted on March 10, 1961.
2.	As the annual report of the director of investigation and research for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1960, discloses, complaints of collusion have been inquired into but the inquiries were discontinued. In accordance with the usual practice, any information coming to the attention of the director indicating a possible violation of the Combines Investigation Act is carefully considered to determine whether the situation is such as to warrant formal inquiry. The general practice, however, is that no information is given out as to whether any inquiry under the act is being pursued in a particular industry unless and until a report is published.


*FOOD AND DRUG DIRECTORATE PERSONNEL
Mr. Haidasz: 1.	How many people are employed in the food and drug directorate?

2.	What is the cost of administering this directorate?
3.	How many people with degrees of doctor of medicine work for the directorate?
4.	What are their salaries?
5.	Does the directorate have its own laboratory to do chemical and pharmaceutical tests on foods, food additives and drugs and, if so, how many people are employed in this laboratory?
6.	Does the directorate perform any clinical investigation of foods, food additives and drugs?
7.	How many inspectors does the directorate employ?
8.	Are these inspectors the same for foods and drugs?


Mrs. Casselman:: 1.	The food and drug directorate, exclusive of the narcotic control division, has an authorized establishment of 360 full time positions of which 332 were filled as of October 17, 1962.
The narcotic control division has 50 authorized positions.
2.	The estimated cost of administering this directorate in 1962-63 is $2,374,000. The estimated cost of the narcotic control division is an additional $431,500.
3.	Three.
4.	$8,400, $11,800 and $12,600.
5.	Yes. The directorate operates five regional laboratories in major centres across Canada to do chemical and pharmaceutical tests on foods, food additives and drugs. Fifty seven persons are employed in these laboratories. The directorate also operates a central laboratory at Ottawa to carry out investigational work on all matters falling within the scope of the Food and Drugs Act and regulations. Ninety four persons are employed in this laboratory.
6.	No.
7.	83.
8.	No. Three inspectors with special pharmaceutical training are employed in each of the two regions where the majority of drug manufacturers are located. One inspector specially trained in this field is located in each of the other regions to do whatever drug work is required.


FEDERAL MEAT INSPECTION
Mr. Haidasz: 1.	What government department inspects meat for human consumption?
2.	How many meat inspectors does the federal government employ?
Answer by: Mr. Jorgenson:
1.	Canada Department of Agriculture.
2.	639.


PURCHASE OF GRAIN BY EASTERN FARMERS
Mr. Dumont: Would it be possible for the farmers of eastern Canada to collectively buy feed grain directly from the farmers of western Canada?
Questions
Answer by: Mr. Pigeon:
No. The Canadian Wheat Board Act specifically prohibits a transaction of this kind. The Canadian wheat board is a crown agency responsible for the orderly marketing of wheat, oats and barley on behalf of western grain producers. If any farmer in eastern Canada wishes to buy from the Canadian wheat board he is free to do so at any time.


PURCHASE OF BUTTER CONTAINERS
Mr. Perron: 1.	What quantities of wooden butter containers were ordered by the Department of Agriculture from Canadian manufacturers in the fiscal year 1960-61?
2.	What are the names of these manufacturers, and the quantities ordered from each such manufacturer for the same period?
3.	What quantities of paper containers were ordered by the Department of Agriculture for the same period from Canadian or foreign manufacturers, and for what amount?
Answer by: Mr. Pigeon:
1.	Nil.
2.	Not applicable.
3.	Nil.


*C.M.H.C. MORTGAGE INSURANCE FUND
Mr. Pilon: As at September 30, 1962, what is the balance in the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation mortgage insurance fund?


Robert Jardine McCleave: 


$98,069,361. NORTHUMBERLAND STRAIT CAUSEWAY    EFFECT ON FISH
Mr. McWilliam: Have surveys of the proposed Northumberland strait causeway compiled any data relative to possible effects on the Miramichi fishing industry and, if so, what is the finding of the surveys?
Answer by: Mr. McPhillips:
Surveys were made to indicate possible effect on the whole fishing industry of the area, which included that of the Miramichi.
On completion of detailed current surveys predictions were made of conditions following construction. On this basis it was concluded that:
(a)	With a full causeway there would be little damage to fish with the possible exception of slight effects on the salmon, lobster and shellfish populations. There was a slight indication that salmon, on occasion, migrate through Northumberland strait, and thus a full causeway might interfere with this migration. There was also possibility of erosion of beaches and shallow water areas to the detriment of lobster holding facilities and shellfish populations. A more substantial possibility was that the consequent general

Questions
warming of the water might make difficult the holding of lobster at summer high temperatures.
(b)	With the alternative of a causeway with a bridge section existing conditions would be insignificantly changed and effects eliminated.


UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE-PACIFIC REGION INVESTIGATORS
[Stage Direction]
Question No. 439
Mr. Berger:: How many investigators were employed by the unemployment insurance commission in the Pacific region during each month of this year?
Answer by: Mr. Hales:
In the Pacific region of the unemployment insurance commission, enforcement officers were employed each month of this year as follows: January, 17; February, 18; March, 18; April, 18; May, 17; June, 19; July, 18; August, 17; September, 17.


* ACQUISITION OF MILITARY WEAPONS
Mr. Matheson: 1.	On what date did the government decide to acquire, and on what date did it in fact acquire, each of the following weapons, namely: (a) Bomarc (b) CF-101B (c) CF-104 (d) Honest John (e) Argus?
2.	Has the government reached a decision with respect to supplying any of the above armaments with nuclear warheads and, if so, what is the decision?


Mr. Harkness:: 1.	(a) September 1958, October 1961.
(b)	June 1961, July 1961.
(c)	July 1959, March 1961.
(d)	March 1960, August 1961.
(e)	December 1953, December 1956.
2.	Reference is made to the statement by the Prime Minister on October 17, 1962, as reported on page 627 of Hansard of that date.
^NATIONAL FILM BOARD CONTRACTS WITH EMPLOYEES


Mr. Matheson: 1.	How many national film board employees, who were employed on a contract basis, have had their contracts expire during the past six months?
2.	Of these, how many have failed to have their contracts renewed?
3.	Of the employees who failed to have their contracts renewed, how many had enjoyed records of employment for a period of two years or more?


Frank Charles McGee: 1.	21 cases where contracts have expired. In addition:
(a)	3 cases where employees initiated termination of their contract before expiry date.
(b)	3 cases where contracts were cancelled on the board's initiative before expiry date.
(c)	1 case where contract was cancelled by mutual agreement.

(d)	2 cases where contract employees were transferred to establishment.
2.	Of the 21 cases where contracts had reached expiry term, 5 employees failed to have their contracts renewed.
3.	Two.


*C.B.C. PROGRAM &quot;CHEZ MIVILLE&quot;
Mr. Marcoux: 1.	How many persons comprise the team producing the program "Chez Miville" which is about to leave for a tour of Europe?
2.	What are the names of the sponsors of this tour?
3.	What amount is being paid by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation for the said tour?


Mr. Halpenny:: I am informed by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation as follows:
1.	Ten.
2.	Voyages Claude Michel. Compagnie Generate Transatlantique. Home Lines.
3.	Nil. The costs of the tour are recoverable from the three sponsors.


*C.B.C. ELECTION COVERAGE, BURNABY-COQUITLAM
Mr. Marcoux: 1.	Did the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation send a team to British Columbia to cover the election results in Burnaby-Coquitlam on October 22, and, if so, how many members were included in the team?
2.	What is the name of the sponsor of this broadcast?
3.	What amount was paid by the C.B.C.?


George Ernest Halpenny: I am informed by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation as follows:
1.	One newsman and one cameraman from Vancouver staff covered this.
2.	Not sponsored.
3.	It is not considered to be in the public interest to divulge information as to program costs as it would affect the position of the corporation in the competitive business in which it is engaged.
^COLOMBO PLAN MEETINGS-CANADIAN INTERPRETERS


Mr. Marcoux: 1.	What country pays the expenses of the Canadian officers (i.e., interpreters) who are attending the international meetings held in connection with the Colombo plan?
2.	What is the approximate amount of such expenses?
3.	Does the reduction of Canada's contribution to the Colombo plan, due to budget restrictions, rule out the presence of these interpreters at the said meetings and, if so, does the government, in order to reduce expenses, intend to use bilingual officers?


John George Diefenbaker: 1.	The host country, Australia.
2.	Return passage and $16 per day allowances.
3.	Not applicable.

*f-104 practice bomb


Mr. Hellyer: 1.	Has a tender been let for a practice bomb for the F-104 and, if so, how many have been ordered, and what is the cost?
2.	Is it possible for this practice bomb to be armed with a nuclear warhead?


Douglas Scott Harkness: 1.	Yes; 54,626 at a cost of $1,295,136.
2.	No.


NATIONAL EMPLOYMENT SERVICE
Mr. Orlikow: 1.	How many workers were found employment by the national employment service during the years 1959, 1960, and 1961?
2.	How many of these were placed in casual or temporary employment?
3.	How many of these placed in temporary employment were later recalled by their former employers?
4.	How many of those who were recalled by their former employers were re-engaged in order of seniority?
5.	How many of those who were recalled were drawn from lists supplied to the national employment service by (a) employers (b) trade unions (c) federal-provincial farm services (d) other agencies?
6.	What were the names of these agencies?
7.	Is it the policy of the government that the national employment service be used to recall workers for former employers, giving these workers precedence over others with equal skills who are registered for employment?
Answer by: Mr. Hales:
1.	Number of workers found employment is as follows: 1959, 986,073; 1960, 958,300; 1961, 1,119,862.
2.	Number placed in casual or temporary employment is as follows: 1959, 256,415; 1960, 249,613; 1961, 292,695.
3.	4, 5 and 6. This information is not available from national employment service records.
7. When employers specify the names of workers they wish to recall, the national employment service informs such workers about the availability of their former jobs; this is done without reference to other workers registered for employment.


VOCATIONAL TRAINING
Mr. Berger: 1.	How many unemployed persons have been enrolled in occupational training courses pursuant to the technical and occupational training agreement since March 31, 1962, and, of these (a) how many are men (b) how many are women?
2.	How many of the unemployed persons enrolled in these courses are still undergoing training, and, of these (1) how many (a) men (b) women, have completed said courses, (2) how many (a) men (b) women, have failed to pass said courses?
3.	How many (a) men (b) women, have obtained employment since completing said courses?
Questions
Answer by: Mr. Hales:
1.	Unemployed persons enrolled in occupational training courses:
(a)	..	11,114(b)	..	5,190
Total .. 16,334
2.	Number still undergoing training:
(a)	..	2,230(b)	..	1,913Total ..	4,143(1)	Number who have completed courses:(a)	..	6,275(b)	..	2,097Total . .	8,372(2)	This information is not available.3.	This information is not available.


* CANADIAN DOLLAR
[Stage Direction]
Question No. 458
Mr. Pickersgill:: 1.	Did the Minister of Agriculture make a statement regarding the exchange value of the Canadian dollar at Vancouver, B.C., on June 8, 1962, and, if so, what was the precise wording of the statement?
2.	Did the Minister of Agriculture receive any communication, direct or indirect, from the Prime Minister with reference to that statement and, if so, what was the nature of the communication?
3.	Did the Minister of Agriculture receive any communication, direct or indirect, from the exminister of finance (Mr. Fleming) with reference to that statement and, if so, what was the nature of the communication?


Mr. Hamilton:: 1.	No. At a news conference in Vancouver on June 8 the Minister of Agriculture answered an oral question which made reference to the benefits of devaluation to the farmer, fisherman, lumberman, miner and workers in export manufacturing industries.
2.	This question seems to ascertain what communications pass between ministers, which under our constitutional system are completely privileged.
3.	Same answer as No. 2.



Mr. Pickersgill: 1.	On what date did the Prime Minister hold the consultation with the ex-minister of finance on "the weakness in the exchange market" referred to by the Prime Minister on October 1, 1962, and recorded at page 109 of Hansardt
2.	When that consultation took place, was the Prime Minister aware of a statement on the exchange value of the Canadian dollar made in Vancouver on June 8 by the Minister of Agriculture?
3.	What was the text of the official statement on the exchange value of the dollar issued by the ex-minister of finance on June 10, 1962?

Questions
4.	Was the text of the official statement communicated to the Minister of Agriculture before it was issued to the public?


John George Diefenbaker: 1.	June 10, 1962.
2.	The Prime Minister was aware that the press reported the Minister of Agriculture as having made reference to devaluation.
3.	The text released by the ex-minister of finance reads as follows:-
1 would ask to table that statement, or have it made part of the answer.


Mr. Speaker:: Is it agreed that it should be printed as part of the answer?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
[Editor's Note: The statement referred to above is as follows:]
I have been asked whether the exchange rate for the Canadian dollar, which was fixed at 921 cents in U.S. funds on May 2, to take effect May 3, is to be regarded as definitive.
With the approval of the Prime Minister, I wish to make it clear beyond question that the rate of 92J cents in U.S. funds is definite and final. We chose this rate after careful consideration of our balance of payments outlook. It has been legally established by the government with the concurrence of the international monetary fund. No other rate and no other exchange system is being considered or will be considered by the government.
We are determined to maintain the 92J cents rate against pressures of any sort. The very extensive financial resources available to the government will be used to defend it. The government is fully aware that its financial and economic policies basically determine the value of the Canadian dollar and the Canadian people can be assured that these policies will be of a character which involves no further reduction in the exchange value of the Canadian currency.
4.	No.


HEALTH OF ANIMALS CONTROL, ARGENTEUIL-DEUX-MONTAGNES, QUE.
Mr. Drouin: 1.	Is the Minister of Agriculture aware of the distribution of a circular letter, signed by Mr. H. Troalen, of the health of animals division, to farmers of Argenteuil-Deux-Montagnes warning them that the cost of controlling accredited and listed herds would, from now on, be charged to owners of those herds, should they wish the said control to be continued?
2.	Does the minister approve of the new policy of the health of animals division?
3.	Is the said new policy attributable to the present austerity program?
4.	How many head of cattle will thereby be removed from the control of the health of animals division (a) in Canada (b) in the province of Quebec (c) in the county of Argenteuil-Deux-Montagnes?
5.	How many farmers will be affected by this measure (a) in Canada (b) in the province of Quebec (c) in the county of Argenteuil-Deux-Montagnes?
6.	What amount is expected to be saved thereby?

Answer by: Mr. Pigeon:
1.	The minister is aware that information was sent by department officials to herd owners informing them that the cost of testing tuberculosis accredited herds in tuberculosis accredited areas and brucellosis-free listed herds in brucellosis certified areas would, in the future, be borne by the herd owner.
Under the tuberculosis accredited herd policy and the brucellosis-free listed herd policy individual herds are tested and certified free of those diseases. Since the inception of each of these individual herd policies, area policies have been introduced under which all susceptible cattle in an area are tested and the area as a whole certified as a tuberculosis accredited or brucellosis certified area. The area policies have, therefore, replaced the individual herd policies as the means of controlling and eradicating tuberculosis and brucellosis in Canadian cattle.
The individual herd policies are to be continued but in order to make departmental veterinary manpower available for essential disease control work, including area testing, the owners of herds operating under the individual herd policies are asked to arrange to have the testing done, at their expense, by private practitioners approved by the department. The probable cost to the herd owner will be about $1 per year per animal tested.
2.	Yes.
3.	See answer to question 1.
4.	No animals will be removed from the control of the health of animals division, which will continue the official certification and listing of individual herds tested under the arrangement referred to in the answer to question 1. In addition, all cattle to which the revised policy applies are under the control of the health of animals division in area eradication programs for the same diseases.
5.	The number of tuberculosis accredited and brucellosis-free listed herds are as
follows:
Accredited Herd Plan
(a) Canada ___ 8,496
(b)	Province of
Quebec ..	1,152
(c)	County of Argenteuil-
Deux-
Montagnes 62
Brucellosis-Free Listed Herd Plan 4,115
31
6.	While there will be limited financial savings the primary purpose of the revised policy is to free departmental veterinary manpower for other essential disease control activities.


TRANS-CANADA HIGHWAY, N.B.
Mr. Slewarl: 1.	What Is the route of the trans-Canada highway between the New Brunswick border and North Sydney, N.S.?
2.	How many miles of the highway between the New Brunswick border and North Sydney have been built to trans-Canada standards with the assistance of federal funds?
3.	How many miles of the trans-Canada highway between New Glasgow and the Canso causeway were built to trans-Canada standards with federal funds?
4.	Was the stretch of highway between the eastern end of the Antigonish by-pass and Heatherton constructed with the aid of federal funds and, if so, what was the total federal contribution?
5.	What percentage of the total cost of this stretch of highway between the Antigonish bypass and Heatherton was paid out of federal funds?
Answer by: Mr. McCleave:
1.	From the New Brunswick-Nova Scotia border to Oxford; thence via route 4 to the strait of Canso, crossing the strait via the causeway to Port Hastings; thence via Why-cocomagh, Baddeck and Little Bras d'Or to the Newfoundland ferry terminal at North Sydney.
2.	119 miles.
3.	8.9 miles, including the Sutherland river bridge and approaches.
4.	Yes. Federal contribution $641,248.42.
5.	50 per cent.


CHAPLEAU COUNTY, QUE., PUBLIC WORKS
Mr. Laprise: 1.	What works are now being carried out by the Department of Public Works in the county of Chapleau?
2.	What amount of money has been voted for the said works?
Answer by: Mr. McCleave:
1.	Parent, post office building,.-$21,978.50; Taschereau, wharf repairs,-$1,500; Tasche-reau river, (Belcourt), dredging-$650.
2.	Answered by 1.


* AUTOMOBILE ENGINE IMPORTS
Mr. Marlin (Essex East): 1.	What was the value of automobile engines imported from the United States in 1961?
2.	Were they dutiable, and, if so, what was the rate of duty charged?


Mr. Hees:: 1.	Imports of automobile engines (including some engine parts) from the United States in 1961, totalled $15,993,752 (import statistical classes 5242 and 5266).
2.	Dutiable imports of automobile engines (including some engine parts) from the United States in 1961 totalled $14,338,780. The average ad valorem rate of duty on these imports was 24.7 per cent.
Questions


RICHELIEU WATERWAY
Mr. Morris: In its examination of the economic consequences of the Richelieu-Champlain waterway and its effects in Canada and the United States, does the international board set up by the international joint commission intend to provide an opportunity for others to make known their views and, if so, will such representations to the board be received in (a) public hearings (b) private hearings (c) correspondence only?
Answer by: Mr. Diefenbaker:
I am informed by the chairman of the Canadian section, international joint commission, as follows:
The answer to the question as posed is no. But, in accordance with its usual practice, the international joint commission itself will provide for public hearings at which all interested parties will have an opportunity to express their views. Announcement of the dates and places for hearings will be made public well in advance so as to give ample time for preparation of briefs.
The commission will be pleased to receive and consider at any time views of interested parties. In Canada, correspondence should be directed to the secretary, Canadian section, international joint commission, Ottawa.



*PRINCE EDWARD ISLAND


Mr. Rideout: 1.	On what date did the Department of Public Works, or any other person or persons, advise the ministry that the construction of a Prince Edward Island to New Brunswick causeway was feasible having regard to both the financial and engineering aspects of the project?
2.	Was this advice conveyed in a written report and, if so, who signed that report?
3.	On the basis of what financial terms have Northumberland Consultants Limited been named to assist in the construction of the most economical type of causeway?
4.	In what vote in the revised estimates, 1962-63, is provision made for paying Northumberland Consultants Limited for assisting the Department of Public Works in the planning and construction of the Prince Edward Island to New Brunswick causeway?


Robert Jardine McCleave: 1.	February 15, 1962.
2.	Yes-the Minister of Public Works.
3.	Detailed financial terms are now being negotiated with the consulting engineers.
4.	Department of Public Works, development engineering services vote 167.



INCOME TAX DEDUCTIONS FOR SUMMER STUDENTS

Mr. Brown: Before bringing down the annual budget, will the government give consideration to allowing the same deductions for income tax purposes for university summer school students as are at present allowed for regular intramural students?

Questions
Answer by: Mr. Graffiey:
Decisions concerning requests for tax changes are made known in the annual budget.



* JURISDICTION OVER COASTAL STEAMER SERVICES

Mr. Barnett: Will the Minister of Transport announce his decision with respect to introducing an amendment to the Transport Act to bring coastal steamer services in British Columbia under the jurisdiction of the board of transport commissioners, the consideration of which was announced on September 28, 1962?


James Alexander McBain: In reply to a question on the orders of the day on September 28, 1962, it was stated that consideration would be given to the suggestion. Any announcement in respect of this matter will be made in the usual manner.



WINTER WORKS-REMOVAL OF GRADE CROSSINGS

Mr. Laiulippe: Does the government's policy with respect to winter works include the removal of level railway crossings and, if so, have the railway companies entered into any agreement concerning the payment of material and equipment used for the removal of level railway crossings, under the winter works program?
Answer by: Mr. Hales:
No.



CANADIAN MEMBERSHIP IN O.A.S.

Mr. Kelly: Has the government given consideration, to Canadian membership in the organization of the American states, since May 1?, 1961?
Answer by: Mr. Diefenbaker:
Yes. The question of Canadian membership in the organization of American states has been and is being kept under continuous review but no final decision has been taken.



RIMOUSKI, QUE.-BUILDING CONSTRUCTION BRANCH OFFICE

Mr. Legare: Has the Department of Public Works assessed the advantages to be derived from the establishment of an office of its building construction branch at Rimouski and, if so. has an affirmative decision been made, and on what date will the project be carried out?
Answer by: Mr. McCleave:
Yes. The government has assessed the advantages of establishing an office of the building construction branch at Rimouski but it appears that the architectural work can be carried out from Quebec city with engineering assistance from the Rimouski office.



HOUSING UNITS DESTROYED BY FIRE, ETC., 1961

Mr. Laprise: How many housing units were destroyed in 1961 by fire, flood, lightning, etc.?
Answer by: Mr. McCleave:
No information is available as to the number of housing units destroyed by fire, flood, lightning, etc.
During 1961 there were 62,096 fires in residential property from all causes including lightning, resulting in $33,108,236 damage.



FARM CREDIT CORPORATION


Mr. Roy: What is the rate of interest paid by the Farm Credit Corporation on the money it lends to farmers?
Answer by: Mr. Pigeon:
The average rate of interest paid on borrowings as of March 31, 1962 was 4.6 per cent. Borrowing from April 1, 1962 to September 30, 1962 were at 4.5 per cent and the rate on present borrowing is 5.5 per cent.



ST. PLACIDE, QUE.  WHARF REPAIR

Mr. Drouin: 1.	Is it the intention of the government to repair the wharf at St. Placide (Deux-Montagnes) and, if so, (a) on what date will the work begin (b) what repairs will be carried out?
2.	Has the contract been awarded for this work and, if so, to whom, and for what amount?
Answer by: Mr. McCleave:
1.	Yes. (a) Work started October 16, 1962. (b) Repairs to wharf approach involving filling of holes and consolidation with stone.
2.	Contract awarded to Jean Maris Cote at $2965.



SALE OF BUTTER OIL

Mr. Matheson: Has the government negotiated a sale of butter oil with any foreign country during the last 30 days and, if so, with what country or countries and upon what terms including price?
Answer by: Mr. Jorgenson:
No sales of butter oil have been negotiated by the government with any foreign country during the last 30 days.



* SLAVE RIVER AREA, N.W.T.-BUFFALO ANTHRAX PROTECTION

Mrs. Hardie: 1.	What steps has the government taken, other than the issue of a newspaper warning indicating the limits of the infected area, to protect the population of the Slave river area from anthrax prevalent among buffalo in the area?
2.	How is it proposed to ensure that no part of a buffalo, the hunting of which is permitted, is transported into or out of the infected area?


Mr. Jorgenson;: Mr. Speaker, the answer to this question is of some length and I wonder whether I might ask permission of the house to have it printed in Hansard as having been read.


Mr. Speaker:: Of what length is it; is it one foolscap sheet, or two, or three?


Warner Herbert Jorgenson: It is two thirds of a foolscap sheet.


Mr. Speaker:: Is it agreed that the answer be printed in Hansard as having been read?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
[Editor's note:	The answer referred to
above is as follows;1
1.	Control measures in connection with the outbreak of anthrax in buffalo in the Slave river area have been carried on jointly by the Department of Agriculture and the department of northern affairs.
A survey of the infected area was conducted and all buffalo carcasses were disposed of by either deep burial or burning, with the immediate area surrounding each carcass being decontaminated in order to prevent further spread of the infection to both animals and humans.
The Indian and northern health services of the Department of National Health and Welfare participated in the program by contacting all local populations with respect to the dangers involved. Efforts were made to move buffalo from the actual infected zone by driving them out and making the local area unattractive as a grazing area by burning the vegetation.
It should be pointed out that anthrax in animals is a rapidly fatal disease which does not spread from animal to animal but is contracted through exposure to infected soil or material.
2.	Under the provisions of the animal contagious diseases regulation, an anthrax quarantined area has been designated which prohibits the movement into or out of such area of all buffalo and parts of buffalo.
While it is recognized the quarantined area is of necessity a vast one, the enforcement of this order will be carried out jointly by officials of the Departments of Agriculture, Northern Affairs, National Health and Welfare, Citizenship and Immigration and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, all of which have participated in the investigations and control measures.



*FORT P.AE, N.W.T.    PROTECTION AGAINST CONTAMINATED WATER

Mrs. Hardie: What steps has the government taken to provide sanitary protection for the people of the Fort Rae area, seven of whom died since the month of June as a result of drinking contaminated water?
Orders for Returns


Mr. Dinsdale:: Mr. Speaker, perhaps I might add a few words to what was said on this subject on Thursday last as recorded on page 918 of Hansard.
In addition to the immediate measures taken in connection with this problem, a more comprehensive program is under way. A new five year financial agreement was concluded with the Northwest Territories early this year and under this agreement a program for dealing with this long standing health problem has been made available under which the federal government will assist the territorial government in providing reservoirs, water treatment and sewage treatment facilities in northern communities. Fort Rae was the first place listed for action even before the outbreak of this year. Design work has already been completed for the necessary installation. Financial provision is included in my departmental estimates for 1963, and I am advised that the territorial government is also making provision for its share of the costs.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. Howard: 1.	Since the commencement of the decennial census for 1961, has any municipality or province raised any objection or complaint to the effect that the conduct of the census for the municipality or province was, or would be, incomplete, incorrect, or insufficient; and, if so, what are the details of each such complaint?
2.	As a result of these complaints, what action was taken in each case; and if such action, in part, was to arrange for additions to the original population figures, what differences resulted in each case?
3.	Was each such subsequent action, as referred to in part 2 hereof, satisfactory to the complaining party?
4.	As a result of any such subsequent action or from experiences derived from the taking of the census, is any action planned to ensure that a more accurate population count of municipalities will be made in future census-taking?


FLIGHTS BY TRANSPORT DEPARTMENT VISCOUNT AIRCRAFT
Mr. Hellyer: 1.	What flights did each of the two Department of Transport Viscount aircraft make in the months of January, February, March, and April, of 1960, 1961, and 1962?
2.	What was the purpose of each flight?
3.	Who were the passengers in each case?



* CIVIL SERVICE APPOINTMENTS


Mr. Rinfret: Among the new appointments made by the civil service commission in 1961, how many women and men used the French language in their competitions

Orders for Returns
or examinations with respect to (a) the 16 appointments to the public archives (b) the 17 appointments to the insurance department (c) the 23 appointments to the auditor general's office (d) the 6 appointments to the national library (e) the 6 appointments to the board of broadcast governors (1) the 14 appointments to the House of Commons (g) the 13 appointments to the board of transport commissioners for Canada (h) the 13 appointments to the national gallery of Canada and (i) the 11 appointments to the national energy board?


George Ernest Halpenny: Return tabled.
television coverage of golf tournament


Mr. Ouellei: Did the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation televise the Canadian open golf tournament held at Laval sur le Lac on July 26, 1962, and, if so, (a) on whose authority was it broadcast (b) how much broadcast time did the program occupy (c) was it carried on both the English and French language networks (d) was the program sponsored, and, if so, what percentage of the cost was met by the sponsor (e) if the program was unsponsored, what was its total cost to the C.B.C.?


George Ernest Halpenny: Return tabled.



INVESTIGATION INTO ILLEGAL CHINESE IMMIGRATION

Mr. Howard: 1.	Upon what date, by whom, and by what authority did the investigation into the alleged conspiracy to bring people of Chinese origin to Canada illegally commence, and is it still in progress?
2.	What department or agencies, by names, of the federal government are involved in the investigation, and what role is played by each?
3.	How many, if any, members of the R.C.M.P. have been involved (a) full-time (b) part-time, in this investigation, and how many days have been consumed by each such member?
4.	How many, if any, persons in the Department of Citizenship and Immigration have been involved
(a)	full-time (b) part-time, in this investigation, and how many days have been consumed by each such person?
5.	How many, if any, members of the Hong Kong police have been brought to Canada and, with respect to each, what was (a) the date of arrival
(b)	the date of return (c) the transportation costs
(d)	the salary and expense allowance (e) other costs by detail (f) the agency or department which paid the costs mentioned in parts (c), (d), and
(e)	, and the authority for so paying?
6.	What has been the total cost of this investigation to date for (a) R.C.M.P. (b) Department of Citizenship and Immigration (c) Hong Kong police (d) other elements, all by detail?



ILLEGAL CHINESE IMMIGRATION


Mr. Howard: Since the commencement of the investigation into the alleged conspiracy to bring people of Chinese origin to Canada illegally, have any charges been laid against any person as a result of that investigation and, if so, with respect to each such person, what were (a) his name, address, and occupation
(b)	his history of employment in the public service of Canada (c) the wording of the charge or charges so laid (d) the results of any court action, giving the name of the court (e) the penalties, if any, imposed?




Mr. Howard: Has any employee in the public service of Canada, past or present, full-time or part-time, casual or otherwise, been the subject of any interrogation as a result of the investigation into the alleged conspiracy to bring people of Chinese origin to Canada illegally?



*ST. LAWRENCE SEAWAY PLANS AND CONTRACTS

Mr. Perron: 1.	What company drafted the plans and specifications for the St. Lawrence seaway?
2.	What was the cost to Canada of the drafting of the said plans?
3.	How many general contractors obtained contracts?
4.	What are the names of each of these contractors?
5.	What was the amount of each contract?



TORONTO HARBOUR DEVELOPMENT

Mr. Haidasz: 1.	What authority has the federal government over the Toronto harbour and its lands?
2.	Who owns the Toronto harbour and its lands?
3.	What authority has the federal government over the development of the Toronto harbour lands?
4.	How much money has the federal government spent on the development of the Toronto harbour?
5.	Does the federal government derive any revenue from the operations of the Toronto harbour and its lands?
6.	Has the Department of Transport received any request for approval of development of Toronto harbour lands and, if so, what was the decision?
7.	Does the Department of Transport have any regulations concerning height of buildings close to the Toronto island airport and, if so, what are these regulations?



C.B.C. ELECTION BROADCASTS, 1962

Mr. Marcoux: 1.	Did the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation send representatives to the headquarters of the various political parties on June 18, 1962, and, if so, how many persons comprised each team?
2.	What is the name of the sponsor who paid for these broadcasts?
3.	What has been the cost to the C.B.C. of such broadcasts?


George Ernest Halpenny: Return tabled.



PACIFIC GREAT EASTERN RAILWAY EXTENSION

Mr. Laing: Has the government received, since 1957, any formal submissions from the government of British Columbia for a contribution toward extension of the Pacific and Great Eastern Railway from Prince George to Fort St. John and Dawson Creek and, if so, when were these made, what sum was sought, and what action was taken?



EXPORT-IMPORT CONTROL OVER DANGEROUS GOODS

Mr. Ryan: Does the government exercise any emergency power over the export or import of all goods of a dangerous nature and, if so, how?



CHAPLEAU COUNTY, QUE.  FEDERAL-PROVINCIAL PROJECTS

Mr. Laprise: 1.	In the county of Chapleau, what are the projects which the federal government has undertaken jointly with the Quebec provincial government during the years 1960-61 and 1961-62?
2.	What was the amount of the federal contribution to each of these projects?



ARMY CANTEENS OPERATED BY MAPLE LEAF SERVICES

Mr. Macdonald (Rosedale): 

EXTERNAL AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a question of the Prime Minister in the absence of the Secretary of State for External Affairs. Can the Prime Minister say whether Canada is represented on the special committee on allied policy in Berlin which has been meeting for some weeks in Washington?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I will take that question as notice.
27507-3-6SJ
Inquiries of the Ministry NATIONAL DEFENCE


NUCLEAR WARHEADS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Paul Hellyer (Trinity):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Defence. Have the negotiations mentioned by the Prime Minister on July 4, 1960 been completed to permit the storing under joint Canada-United States control of nuclear warheads at Goose Bay and Harmon field for use by the United States air force?


Douglas Scott Harkness: No, Mr. Speaker.


MEETING OF JOINT U.S.-CANADA COMMITTEE
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Paul Theodore Hellyer: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Defence. Could the minister advise the house when the last meeting of the Canada-United States ministerial committee on joint defence was held?


Douglas Scott Harkness: Mr. Speaker, I will have to look up that date; I do not know, off hand.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Would the minister say whether he proposes to arrange a new meeting at an early date?


Mr. Speaker:: That is hardly a supplementary question.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: It is important.


CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. S. H. Rideout (Westmorland):: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Transport. Has any recent action been taken by the government under the provident fund act concerning increased pensions for widows; and if so, would the minister state the provisions under which action was taken-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. That question is very definitely one for the order paper.


POST OFFICE DEPARTMENT
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Lucien Lamoureux (Stormont):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Postmaster General. In view of the impending slow down of service threatened

Inquiries of the Ministry by postal employees, will the Post Office Department expedite long overdue pay increases to its employees?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. There is a good deal of opinion expressed in that question.


Lucien Lamoureux: Mr. Speaker, I should like to rephrase the question I asked a moment ago of the Postmaster General. In view of the impending slowdown of service threat by postal employees, will the Post Office Department expedite pay increases of its employees?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The same opinion prevails as before.
(Translation):


PUBLIC BUILDINGS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Gerard Lamy (St. Maurice-Lafleche):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Postmaster General. Could the hon. lady tell us if the plans for the Grand'-Mere post office are ready?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I hope the hon. members will admit that questions about a post office, whether here or there, cannot be asked. Put it on the order paper, please.
(Text):


CANADIAN EXHIBIT AT NEW YORK WORLD'S FAIR
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Jack Davis (Coast-Capilano):: Mr. Speaker, may I address a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce. Does the Canadian government intend to organize an exhibit to be shown at the forthcoming New York world's fair?


Mr. Speaker:: That is definitely a question for the order paper.
(Translation):


INCOME TAX
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Gerald Laniel (Beauharnois-Salaberry):: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of National Revenue. Further to the many complaints addressed to me by people from my riding, and particularly a few civil servants, can the Minister of National Revenue tell this house what is unduly delaying the income tax refunds for 1961.


Mr. Speaker:: I am sure this question should be put on the order paper.

(Text):



WAYS AND MEANS

[Stage Direction]
The house in committee of ways and means, Mr. Chown in the chair.

[Stage Direction]
Resolved,-that it is expedient to introduce a measure to amend the Income Tax Act to provide among other things:
1.	That for the 1962 and subsequent taxation years the amount deductible in computing taxable income in respect of a child qualified for family allowance be increased to $300 and the amount deductible in respect of other dependants be increased to $550 each.
2.	That with respect to income earned after March 31, 1962 a corporation whose principal business is manufacturing or processing (not including a corporation whose principal business is shipbuilding, mining, logging or the operation of oil or gas wells) be allowed to deduct from its tax otherwise payable an amount equal to 50 per cent of the tax on the first $50,000, of its taxable income attributable to increased sales and an amount equal to 25 per cent of the tax on the remainder of its taxable income so attributable.
3.	That with respect to its first taxation year ending after April 10, 1962 and the next succeeding four taxation years a corporation be permitted to deduct in computing income 150 per cent of the amount by which expenditures of a current and capital nature on scientific research in Canada incurred by it in the year exceed expenditures of a current and capital nature on scientific research in Canada incurred by it in its last taxation year ending on or before April 10, 1962.
4.	That for the 1962 to 1966 taxation years both inclusive the deduction from tax allowed to corporations in respect of taxable income earned in a province be increased from 9 per cent to 10 per cent in a prescribed province in which arrangements exist for the replacement of federal grants to universities by additional provincial grants in accordance with the proposed amendments to the Federal-Provincial Fiscal Arrangements Act.
5.	That with respect to taxation years commencing in 1962 a taxpayer be allowed a deduction from tax of an amount equal to the lesser of two-thirds of the amount payable for the year to a province as a tax on income from logging operations or § of 10 per cent of the taxpayer's income from logging operations in the province, and the right to deduct in computing income amounts paid to a province as tax on income from logging operations be repealed.
6.	That with respect to expenses incurred after April 10, 1962 any corporation be allowed to deduct in computing income the drilling and exploration expenses, including all general geological and geophysical expenses, incurred by it on or in respect of exploring or drilling for petroleum or natural gas in Canada and the prospecting, exploration and development expenses incurred by it in searching for minerals in Canada not exceeding its income for the year from oil or gas wells in Canada.
7.	That with respect to expenses incurred after April 10, 1962 an individual be allowed to deduct in computing income the drilling and exploration expenses, including all general geological and geophysical expenses, incurred by him on or in respect of exploring or drilling for petroleum or natural gas in Canada not exceeding his income for the year from oil or gas wells in Canada.
8.	That with respect to acquisitions after April 10, 1962 amounts paid by

(a)	a corporation whose principal business is production, refining or marketing of petroleum, petroleum products or natural gas, or exploring or drilling for petroleum or natural gas, or mining or exploring for minerals.
(b)	an association, partnership or syndicate formed for the purpose of exploring or drilling for petroleum or natural gas,
(c)	a corporation (other than a corporation that qualifies under (a)), or
(d)	an individual for a right, licence or privilege to explore for, drill, or take petroleum or natural gas in Canada shall be classed as drilling or exploration expenses for purposes of computing deductions from income.
9.	That with respect to sales of property acquired after April 10, 1962 there shall be included in the income of a taxpayer any amount received as consideration for the disposition of a right, licence or privilege to explore for, drill for or take petroleum or natural gas except where the right, licence or privilege was acquired by inheritance or bequest.
10.	That the right of a successor corporation to deduct drilling, exploration, prospecting and development expenses incurred by a predecessor corporation from the income of the successor corporation attributable to the production of petroleum or natural gas from wells, or the production of minerals from mines, situated on property acquired from the predecessor corporation shall not be lost by reason of the fact that the successor corporation assumed liabilities of the predecessor corporation.
11.	That a joint exploration corporation may renounce an appropriate share of the drilling, exploration, prospecting and development expenses incurred by it after 1956 in searching for oil, gas or minerals in Canada in favour of a shareholder corporation whose principal business is
(a)	production, refining or marketing of petroleum, petroleum products or natural gas, or exploring or drilling for petroleum or natural gas,
(b)	mining or exploring for minerals, '
(c)	processing mineral ores for the purpose of recovering metals therefrom,
(d)	a combination of
(i)	processing mineral ores for the purpose of recovering metals therefrom, and
(ii)	processing metals recovered from the ores so processed, or
(e)	fabricating metals,
and in such case the expenses renounced shall be deductible by the shareholder corporation and not by the joint exploration corporation.
12.	That the right of a successor corporation to deduct drilling, exploration, prospecting and development expenses incurred by a predecessor corporation from the income of the successor corporation attributable to the production of petroleum or natural gas from wells, or the production of minerals from mines, situated on property acquired from the predecessor corporation be extended to a second successor corporation which has acquired the property from a predecessor corporation which was itself a successor corporation.
13.	That for the 1962 and subsequent taxation years income earned in Canada by a non-resident corporation whose principal business is mining iron ore in Canada, be exempt from the additional 15 per cent tax imposed by Part IIIA on profits earned in Canada by non-resident corporations.
14.	That where an employee who is a member of one deferred profit sharing plan becomes a member of another deferred profit sharing plan the amount to his credit in the first mentioned plan may be transferred to his credit in the second mentioned plan without attracting tax on the amount so transferred.
15.	That the amount to the credit of an annuitant under a registered retirement savings plan may be transferred at any time before the maturity of the
Ways and Means
plan to another registered retirement savings plan or to a registered pension fund or plan without attracting tax on the amount so transferred.
Mr. Byrne:: Mr. Chairman, last Thursday evening, in the few minutes I had at my disposal, I was dealing with the very serious question of unemployment and the attitude of the government towards that very serious factor in our economy. I pointed out that a committee advises both the commission and the government on changes necessary, and as to the condition of the fund itself. In its report, which was recently tabled, the committee has warned the government on at least four occasions that, unless steps are taken -that is, either legislatively or by a grant- to improve the fund, it will become bankrupt. As a matter of fact, it is bankrupt.
I have not been in the house over the past four years, but I have read Hansard quite diligently, and I have found that the members of the opposition have consistently asked and implored the government to do something to alleviate this serious unemployment situation. I was in this house in 1955 when the hon. member for Hamilton West sitting in opposition moved an amendment to a motion to go into supply which dealt with the unemployment situation as at that time. Let me remind this committee that in the year 1955 the question of unemployment was only half as serious as it was last year. The average number of unemployed in relation to the total labour force was about half in 1955 as compared to 1961. At that time the Prime Minister, then the hon. member for Prince Albert, sitting in opposition, had this to say in speaking to the amendment, as reported at page 2035 of Hansard for March 15, 1955:
They express solicitude.
He is speaking of the government of the day.
They mobilize statistics. But the Prime Minister, from whom the people of Canada want to hear, with the prestige of his position, remains silent in the face of a problem that wrings the hearts of the people.
I recommend those words to the Prime Minister in another context, something which took place here just last week.
There is another statement on the same page of Hansard:
What a hopeless picture. The government, faced for the first time with serious unemployment that has been mounting over the years, is unable to give any hope. We are unable to rouse them into placing before the people of Canada some of the picture.
Then rising to his greatest heights, the hon. member for Prince Albert then had this to say, as reported on page 2037 of Hansard. Quoting Edmund Burke he said:
We can never walk surely but by being sensible of our blindness.

Ways and Means
Mr. Chairman, over the past five years this side of the house has entreated the government to do something to alleviate the unemployment situation. Since June 24 of this year it appears they have been attempting to do something, however ineffectual it may be. On March 15, 1955, when speaking of prime minister St. Laurent, the hon. member for Prince Albert, as reported on page 2039 of Hansard, said:
Will he not state that he realizes that if we continue to deliberately delude ourselves concerning the unemployment situation we shall bring about a fear complex in this country which will have serious results in the future?
I would point out that that was the attitude of the present Prime Minister in the days of 1955; yet he buries his head in the sands of the present day and certainly beclouds any picture or attempt being made to show what the actual situation is. I should like to make reference to a statement made by a gentleman in the other place, in which he said that this side of the house debases the Prime Minister and the Prime Minister's position. This gentleman was the director of the campaign which took place last spring; he was the campaign director for the Conservative party.
I should like hon. members of the committee to remember this statement when I read a transcript, which I propose to read now, of an election broadcast made by the Conservative party on June 15 of this year. I quote:
Here is Important news.
I must warn hon. members of the opposition not to applaud this too vigorously, even though it is one of their own revelations, because they will find this is as much of a lie, perhaps, as anything could possibly be. So I just ask them to listen carefully. The statement went on:
The dominion bureau of statistics announces the greatest increase in jobs in any month in Canadian history: 247,000 new jobs were created in the month of May. Department of Labour economists flatly predict June will see for all those who want to work full employment in Canada. This news is clear proof that Canada's economy is heading toward the greatest year in history. The reasons for this are clear-pushing our export trade, encouragement of industry, solid planning over the past four years by John Diefenbaker and his team.
We repeat this most important news: bureau of statistics this morning announces the greatest increase in jobs in any month in Canadian history.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: Do I hear some hon. members say "hear, hear"?
Department of Labour flatly predicts this month will see full employment in Canada. We can't afford to take a chance. Keep Canada moving forward; Monday re-elect the Diefenbaker team.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: Nothing wrong with that. Now,
I heard this pronouncement while driving in my car with four unemployed hitchhikers as passengers. I would not care to repeat just what reception they gave this announcement. However, I decided in my own good time to write to this radio station and ask for a transcript of this broadcast. I received a reply from the station operator, who said: "I shall be happy to obtain for you the Conservative roorback that was broadcast on June 15". I did not pay much attention to the meaning of "roorback", but I took the trouble recently to look up the definition in Webster. I want the members of the government to understand that "roorback" was not my suggestion or the suggestion of any Liberal; it was something coming from the manager of the radio station, who was certainly not politically influenced. "Roorback" means a lie; a fictitious report made for the purpose of influencing an election. That is what the manager of the radio station said; it is not important in so far as this debate is concerned.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: I am giving the facts. We will recall what the Prime Minister had to say. I did not give all of his quotations, of course, this was a quotation of the Prime Minister on June 14:
We have given you the facts. We have bared the record. We have concealed nothing and shaded nothing.
I now propose to show that this fictious statement made by the Conservative party on June 15 was a lie and was fraudulent.


Mr. Graffiey:: I rise on a point of order.


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: I ask the Minister of Labour either to accept the fact that if there was full employment in June of this year-


The Chairman:: The parliamentary secretary wishes to speak to a point of order.


William Heward Grafftey: The hon. member has consistently used the word "lie".


Mr. Byrrie:: I hope these interruptions will not be taken from my time.


William Heward Grafftey: The hon. member who was just speaking has consistently used the word "lie" which I believe to be unparliamentary, and I ask that he withdraw it.


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: If that is viewed as being unparliamentary, that is O.K. with me.


Mr. Chevrier:: I rise on a point of order. The rule is quite clear. The hon. member

has not directed that adjective towards anybody in this chamber but toward a statement and toward an advertisement. That has been decided time and again to be quite within the rules.


Robert Jardine McCleave: On the point of order may I say this-


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: I hope my time will not be affected.


Gordon Campbell Chown: Order. I am afraid I could not hear the parliamentary secretary.


Robert Jardine McCleave: The hon. member for
Laurier has said that these words were not directed at a particular person. However, as I understood the words of the hon. member, he was directing them at the Minister of Labour.


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: I shall show in a moment at whom I am directing them. I am just going to run over them briefly for hon. members in case they do not understand the implications of what I have said or of this statement. It reads:
The dominion bureau of statistics this morning announces the greatest increase in jobs in any month in Canadian history.
This statement, my friends, is a lie.


Mr. Slarr:: Mr. Chairman, I rise on a question of privilege and a point of order both, as a matter of fact.


Paul Joseph James Martin: You cannot have both at the same time.


Gordon Campbell Chown: The Minister of Labour wishes to speak to a point of order. I cannot hear two hon. members at the same time. I am certainly quite prepared to allow the hon. member who has the floor a little bit of additional time as a result of these interruptions, as long as they are not provocative of points of order and points of privilege on a basis which is-


Paul Joseph James Martin: Specious.


Gordon Campbell Chown: I thank the hon. member.


Lionel Chevrier: Nor can Your Honour hear two points of order at the same time.


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: I will show from the facts that they are untrue.


George Clyde Nowlan: I rise on a point of order. I remember very well what the hon. member for Laurier said the other day so forcibly and effectively, namely that ministers should protect civil servants when they are accused of any offence, as they could not be here to protect themselves. The dominion bureau of statistics is composed of civil servants. The hon. member brings in the words which the Prime Minister used. Then he twists. Then he
Ways and Means
says, "I will tell you in a moment at whom I am going to direct them". Now he says he is referring to the bureau of statistics. What I say is this: if the words of the hon. member for Laurier had the effect-


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: Mr. Chairman-


Some hon. Members:: Sit down.


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: I will sit down.


George Clyde Nowlan: If the words of the hon. member for Laurier had the effect I thought they had, and I thought they were well taken, I would ask you to recall those words, Mr. Chairman; and I suggest that one should not refer in this way to civil servants.


Lionel Chevrier: I rise to speak to the point of order, if I may do so. I am delighted that the minister did not jump out of his seat at someone who interrupted him as he appeared to be quite angry. May I say that I stand by what I said with reference to civil servants. The hon. member who is now speaking is not directing his attack or his words against any civil servant, He is directing them, so far as I have heard them, against an advertisement and surely that procedure is not out of order.


George Clyde Nowlan: The last words were "the bureau of statistics".


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: The same day in the Vancouver Province there appeared the headline to the effect that the drop in unemployment had amounted to 149,000 people, that is to say that there were 149,000 fewer unemployed than there were in April. I want to be fair to members of the opposition and say this. That reference to 247,000 jobs per year in essence is true, that there were about 100,000 more people went to work who were not actually listed as unemployed; so that in effect there were 247,000 jobs created during the month of May. This article states:
The dominion bureau of statistics announces the greatest increase in jobs in any month in Canadian history.
When I was so rudely interrupted I was about to tell you that this statement also was untrue.


Paul Joseph James Martin: That is not unparliamentary.


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: In 1961 in May there were 6 million jobs and in April of 1961 there were 5 million jobs, but the actual increase in creation of jobs for that month of 1961 was 267,000. That figure is more than the 247,000 of 1962. In 1960, there were about 100,000 or rather-


An hon. Member:: You are lost in your own papers.

Ways and Means


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: In 1960, more jobs were created between the month of May and the month of April than in 1962. Hence that is another untruth. This statement states "Department of Labour predicts". I have checked with the Department of Labour and I have checked with the dominion bureau of statistics, none of whom made any such statement, that there would be full employment in June of 1962.


An hon. Member:: There was.


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: The hon. member says, "there was". There were then 214,000 live applicants for unemployment insurance in June of this year. If what the government is saying is true and if what the hon. member over on the opposite side of the chamber is saying is true, then action should be taken against 200,000 or more fraudulent applications for unemployment insurance. This government has perpetrated a fraud in so far as the advertisement is concerned on the last day of those which were provided for radio broadcasting. This government knew the situation when this advertisement was sent to the radio stations. It was sent to the stations so that they did no have sufficient time or were not allowed sufficient time to check with the board of broadcast governors. In all fairness I suggest that this statement-I refer not to the transcript but to the actual tape of that statement -be brought before the committee on privileges and elections and that they be allowed to decide whether this was not contrary to the Broadcasting Act and a completely fraudulent advertisement. This is the challenge that I make.


Michael Starr: I rise at this point, Mr. Chairman, as the Minister of Finance said a moment ago, to vindicate a statement issued by the dominion bureau of statistics.


Lionel Chevrier: I rise on a point of order, Mr. Chairman.


Gordon Campbell Chown: Order. I have not heard the minister's point, if there is a point, to the extent where I can make any judgment on it. I think he is rising again with respect to civil servants or any imputations with regard to them.


Michael Starr: Yes.


Lionel Chevrier: I rise on a question of privilege.


Michael Starr: I am speaking to a point of order.


Lionel Chevrier: A question of privilege takes precedence over a point of order.


Michael Starr: No, it does not.


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Chairman-


Gordon Campbell Chown: Order. First of all, I caution the minister if he is about to make a

correction which does not have general application to him in person, as this is something he can do in the normal course of this debate. He may get the floor on his own account.


Michael Starr: The hon. member is calling civil servants liars.


John Whitney Pickersgill: He did not do that. The minister was not even in the house. He did not even hear what the hon. member said.


Gordon Campbell Chown: I will hear the hon. member for Laurier on the question of privilege.


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: I ask the minister to withdraw that statement.


Gordon Campbell Chown: I cannot give the floor to the hon. member for Laurier if the hon. member for Kootenay East keeps rising to his feet. I will hear the member for Laurier.


Lionel Chevrier: I simply draw to your attention what the rule of the house is. The minister has no right to rise in his place and interrupt the person who is speaking. If he finds that a misstatement has been made there are two courses of action open to him. He can rise after the hon. member has finished, as is the practice in the house, or he can enter the debate himself and refute the statement. What he is trying to do now is to rise and interrupt the speech of the hon. member, which I submit with respect he has no right to do.


Michael Starr: Mr. Chairman, all I am trying to do is to follow the procedure in this and other debates that has been followed by the Liberals.


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: Mr. Chairman, first of all I want to have it fully understood that I make no charges whatever against the officials of the dominion bureau of statistics or the officials of the Department of Labour. But I do say this sounds suspiciously like that great advertiser, Mr. Grosart, and another great Canadian who sold Canada well but has not sold the Conservative party too well. I refer to Mr. John Fisher. This sounds very much like him.
I will give the minister the news release that was issued on this occasion. The Prime Minister referred to it in his address on June 14 in Toronto, I believe. These are the actual words found in the release:
Employment rose by 247,000 between April and May. Increases were about normal for time of year in both farm and non-farm sectors.
That is not in conformity with this statement which says that never in our history has there been such an increase in jobs in one month. I have referred to the figures to show that in the last three years this is not so. I repeat that this was fraudulent

advertising and if the minister is not going to charge those who received unemployment insurance during the month of June, I again ask him to accept this charge of fraudulent advertising and bring the matter before the committee on privileges and elections. That is all I have to say with regard to unemployment, except this: Do more; let us get things moving.


Gordon Campbell Chown: Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member but his time has expired.


Mr. Leboe:: Mr. Chairman, first of all, since this is the first opportunity I have had I should like to congratulate you and your deputy and also Mr. Speaker on your appointments. Personally speaking, I think you have been doing an admirable job in looking after the affairs of the house and your conduct certainly is worthy of commendation.
I should like to pay tribute to a member of this house from 1958 to 1962 who served his community well. I refer to the former member for Cariboo, Walter Henderson. It was my personal experience to work with Mr. Henderson when he was chairman of the school board in Dawson Creek. He was also president of the farmers institute. I remember well the efforts he put forth in connection with the fair board and the fall fairs that took place every year in that community.
Mr. Henderson did not lose the constituency for personal reasons. His popularity rose considerably during the four years he was a member. However, his personal popularity was not able to keep up with the decline of his party and therefore it so happens that I am here in his place. I do want it known that we appreciate Mr. Henderson and the efforts he has made in the community as well as here in the House of Commons.
I should also like to pay tribute to the pioneers of the Cariboo constituency. This is one of those things that we often would like but seldom have the chance to do-to pay tribute to these pioneers. Many of these people came into the Cariboo district 40 to 50 years ago and I think it is a recommendation for the country that they are still in the Cariboo. I should like to mention one or two of them but by doing so I intend no offence to the others. We lost a great man in the Cariboo just recently. His name was Frederick Tre-gelis. Had he lived another four or five months he would have been 100 years of age. Since he was a boy of about 17 he had spent all his life in the town of Barkerville which, as hon. members know, at one time was the largest city west of Chicago and north of San Francisco.
I think of Mrs. Seymour who is now 114 years old, I believe, and who can thread a 27507-3-67
Ways and Means
needle without glasses. These are some of the pioneers of the Cariboo riding and the northern part of British Columbia generally. I should like to pay tribute to them because they have certainly brought a lot to British Columbia and to Canada.
Another pioneer I should like to mention is Tom Jamieson. I mention him because he homesteaded at Hudson Hope some 50 years ago. Hudson Hope, as you may know, is the site of the new Peace river dam development. This, of course, is one of the great projects being launched in Canada today to meet the ever growing demand for electricity. It was my pleasure to visit no later than yesterday the site of the South Saskatchewan dam and I should like to commend the government on going ahead with this great project. It was a delight to see the progress that is being made and the plans for the future in this regard.
With respect to the Peace river power development, I think it can be said that this will likely be one of the largest earth filled dams in the world when it is completed. I believe it is going to be over 7,000 feet long and over 600 feet high. It will back up the waters to form a lake some 265 miles in length. We believe it will certainly be a great asset not only to British Columbia but to Canada. This development will undoubtedly bring with it many opportunities for business and for working men to ply their skills.
We are very pleased that in British Columbia we have been able over the years to contribute to the Canadian welfare by an expanding economy which has attracted many people to our province. This new development is another way in which this is being done. I suggest that it will take somewhere in the neighbourhood of 10,000 people eight or nine years to complete the removal of the timber and the debris that will have to be removed before flooding takes place as a result of the dam.
I think we should be reminded here, however, that no province, no matter how ambitious its plans are or how many projects it institutes, can avoid being faced with unemployment. The reason for this, of course, is that unemployment is a national problem. In my estimation, unemployment can never be considered as a provincial problem so long as our borders are open to the free travel of individuals seeking jobs. If we were to consider unemployment on a provincial basis, then we would have to make certain that extreme precautions were taken by way of priorities for jobs. But this is not Canada if we are parochial in our thinking. We must, therefore, be fair to all Canadians and let them move freely and use their ability to the advantage of the whole of the Dominion of Canada.

Ways and Means
We have in Canada resources in abundance. We have manpower in abundance, and we have many needs. It seems only logical, then, if we have the resources and we have the manpower, that the needs should be met. On a provincial basis, the only way we can stimulate our economy to bring about jobs and business opportunities is to create what is known as a financial vacuum or a climate favourable to industrial expansion. We have done this in British Columbia. Over the past years an effort has been made, and a good effort, to expand our economy to create a financial vacuum by means of which funds will flow in, thus providing the dollars which are added to the salaries, wages and dividends of the people who are working which are paid out in the production of goods. This tends to give us, in British Columbia, a balanced economy. In other words, we have the ability to consume what we produce. This spells prosperity.
I was interested, Mr. Chairman, in the paragraph in the speech from the throne which referred to the fact that "Canada's development will continue to require imports of capital, and to this end my government will maintain a climate in Canada hospitable to foreign investment." It would appear to me, Mr. Chairman, that this government has taken a look at what has happened in western Canada and said, if this is good for British Columbia, Alberta and Saskatchewan, then it must be good for the whole of Canada.
I should like to point out that, while there is no opportunity for provincial governments alone to do other than attract capital from the outside to expand their economy, that is not the case for the federal government. The federal government has the opportunity, a great opportunity, indeed a responsibility, to use the Bank of Canada in the same way the chartered banks are used for the creation of money. I believe if the Bank of Canada were properly used for the purpose of creating social and public capital, particularly at the municipal level, we would have a prosperity in Canada second to none in the world. The unemployment figures would fall by reason of the fact that our markets are primarily domestic markets. If we have a balance of trade with other countries, unilaterally or multilaterally, then we must understand that we have imported as much in goods as we have exported. Once we have reached that balance in trade, we still have the same number of dollars worth of goods to market at home as though no trade had been experienced at all. This business of intimating that one can export himself into riches is wrong.
If we are looking for more markets, then, we must have an increase in our domestic market. What better way to get an increase in the domestic market, Mr. Chairman, than
[Mr. Leboe.l
to provide that purchasing power at the level of the working class, but make more available for social services by using the Bank of Canada to provide capital for public works such as schools, hospitals, roads, bridges, court houses, wharves, airstrips, airports and so on? Now, if we have expenditures of this kind and if we use the federal bank to provide money for this type of work, we certainly will see an increase in the market for goods in Canada, since relatively we have only a domestic market. If we look the situation square in the face, then we must understand that is the market we must increase if we are going to increase the standard of living of Canadians.
I should like to touch for a moment, Mr. Chairman, on the Columbia river treaty. The only reason I mention it is to make the suggestion, from the studies I have made, that we must realize any treaty that is made with the United States has to be good for that country as well as for Canada. I believe, when the time comes it is upon that basis the decision must be made; that is, the criteria must be that what is good for Canada and the United States is good for the continent. At this moment, I do not believe we can define all the benefits of such a treaty as we have outlined. This treaty, of course, will affect the balance of trade if we are allowed to export electricity from the downstream benefits and also, for a time, from the dam site itself in British Columbia. This will mean again, of course, more payrolls, more jobs and more job opportunities.


Mr. Priitie:: In the United States.


Bert Raymond Leboe: Ways and Means
which the Social Credit group has taken over the years, namely, that the Bank of Canada can be put to a much more useful purpose than it is today; that it is not necessary for the administration to go into debt to meet the difference between the total purchasing power of the nation and the production of goods, and the price tags on those goods, produced by the same people in the same period of time. This is what I have in mind in putting these quotations on the record.
I have an extract here from the U.S. News and World Report, this time by Mr. William McChesney Martin Jr. who is the chairman of the federal reserve board of the United States. It says-and again I read it in question and answer form as it appears:
Q. Well, how do you create money?
A. The simplest answer, probably, is to say that we can issue currency-federal reserve notes-so long as we have the gold backing for them that we talked about earlier, and since we can do that, we can of course issue our cheque-which is simply more convenient, in most cases. Now, to get that currency or cheque out into the economy, we can purchase government securities. The payment we make for them, whether in currency or by cheque, gets the money out.
Q. The Federal Reserve banks can give cheques on themselves?
A. Yes. If someone sells us a government security, he takes the cheque we give him in payment and puts it in his bank, adding to his bank account. His bank forwards the cheque to the Federal Reserve bank and has the amount credited to the reserve account it maintains with the Federal Reserve bank. So our purchase of the government security has put "new money" into the economy -created dollars, so to speak.
Q. But there is a difference about the dollars you create.
A. Yes, in economic impact, though not in form or appearance. These are "high powered" dollars that we create, because, under our fractional-reserve banking system and at the present level of reserve requirements, for each dollar that is created by us in that way there can be an expansion of bank credit by about six times that amount, roughly. So that $1 billion of federal reserve credit created by our action permits bank credit to expand as much as $6 billion, as a theoretical maximum, though the expansion in fact may be much less.
Q. You mean that the banks can loan that much additional?
A. Yes, $6 billion more than they could have loaned before we created that $1 billion.
Mr. Chairman, there is another authoritative source upon which we rely for our stand in Social Credit concerning these monetary matters. I noticed an article in the Bay street Journal of October, 1962. This was written by a commentator reflecting on statements by one Mr. Krug, who says:
Money comes into existence when banks make loans. In order to explain this method of creating money, he continues, "Let us suppose that you require $10,000 to finance a business deal and that you borrow the money from the bank".


Paul Joseph James Martin: That is Mr. Krug from Windsor?
[Mr. Leboe.l


Bert Raymond Leboe: That is the Bay street Journal.


Paul Joseph James Martin: But it is Mr. Krug from Windsor?


Bert Raymond Leboe: Yes, it is quoting a commentary on Mr. Krug's article. The article continues:
"In negotiating the loan, you give your bank an interest-bearing $10,000 note and then the bank credits your bank account with $10,000. Later, as you issue cheques against your bank account, the cheques will be deposited in other people's bank accounts.
"It is readily apparent that the $10,000 loan results in bank deposits (or the money supply) increasing by $10,000. It should also be observed that when the money supply increases by $10,000, that an interest-bearing debt of $10,000 has also been created ... In reality, everyone who borrows from a bank becomes his own private mint and is able to issue money by his ability to command credit at the bank".


Mr. Laing:: Mr. Chairman, would the hon. member permit a question?


Bert Raymond Leboe: Certainly.


Arthur Laing: Could the hon. member relate these rock candy mountain principles to what Premier Bennett of British Columbia did last year when he sold $20 million of federal and provincial bonds out of the pension scheme and put in their place $20 million of his own demand notes as an asset?


Bert Raymond Leboe: I am sorry, Mr. Chairman, but I have not the information the hon. member requires on any specific incident that anyone elsewhere has performed in working within the orthodoxy of present day financing. What I am speaking about is a change in our thinking from the financing of production to the financing of consumption through the use of the Bank of Canada, thereby creating a domestic market for our goods and a better standard of living for our Canadian people.


Gordon Campbell Chown: Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member, but his time has expired.


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Chairman, I listened carefully to the statement which the Minister of Finance made when he introduced the subject of this debate, and I have read his statement on more than one occasion. I believe I can say without hesitation that the conduct and the actions, as well as the record of the government, are fantastic. We all remember that during the election campaign of 1958 the Prime Minister went about the country and boasted of the tax reductions which had been made in the fall of 1957. But after the elections, in 1959, when the votes were in, taxes were increased by more than $350 million.
In 1962 we have a similar approach by the government to mislead the voters once again.

In February the government announced a substantial increase in expenditures for 1962-63, and in the following weeks an impressive list of projects which had not been included in the main estimates. Those of us who sat on this side of the house remember too well how, prior to the election minister after minister rose in the House of Commons to announce projects from one end of the country to the other. However, what is the position today? Most of those projects have been abandoned, although they were used on behalf of the Conservative government to obtain votes in the last election campaign. Moreover, after the election even the main estimates tabled in the house in the month of February are being cut by about $200 million.
But this is only part of the story. Before the election, according to the Prime Minister the Canadian economy had never been in better condition; the Canadian economy was progressing by leaps and bounds. After the election, however, the story was entirely different. We had the dollar crisis and the import surcharges, representing not only a substantial increase in the cost of living-as the housewife can now see every day-but also an increase in taxation, which has not been approved by parliament, let alone the austerity measures which should have been submitted to parliament and about which we know little or nothing. Before the election we had talk of easy money and low rates of interest. Now, after the election, we have tight money with a vengeance.
After all this, Mr. Chairman, I want to repeat that the Canadian people have been the victims of a gigantic political fraud, and whether the government likes it or not, it is a fact that the government has established a fantastic record of deceit and it has shown a complete lack in integrity.


Mr. Churchill:: That is quite false.


Lionel Chevrier: I want to submit proof-


Some hon. Members:: Five o'clock.


Gordon Campbell Chown: Order. It being five o'clock, it is my duty to leave the chair in order that the house may proceed with private members' business, pursuant to section 3 of standing order 15.
Progress reported.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. It being five o'clock, the house will now proceed to the consideration of private members' business as listed on today's order paper, namely notices of motions.
Labour Conditions (Translation):


LABOUR CONDITIONS
Mr. Guy Rouleau (Dollard) moved:: That, in the opinion of this house, the government should give consideration to the advisability of introducing, during the current session of parliament, legislation that would facilitate the employment, in federal works, undertakings, or businesses, as defined in section 2 of chapter 38 of the Statutes of Canada, 1956, or in any corporation, set up to perform some function or duty on behalf of the government of Canada, of male or female persons over 45 years of age who, on account of their age, find it difficult to secure employment at the present time.
He said: Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased that this year, at last, this notice of motion, which has been on the order paper every year since 1956, has reached the stage where it can be discussed. Like every member of this house, since my election to this parliament, I have realized in my encounters with the voters of my constituency, the workers of my riding, heads of families who tell us of their problems, that unfortunately there is in this country a discrimination against workers of 45 years of age and over.
In my opinion, that discrimination against workers 45 years of age and over is as reprehensible as racial and other discriminations.
Since I had the opportunity to become aware of the problem facing workers 45 years of age and over, I decided to consider the question with a view to know if the government could not do something to stop that discrimination in our country. That situation is caused by factors fairly numerous, but I shall mention only two.
Our industrialists-perhaps for want of leadership from the government, perhaps because of automation or other related problems-prefer to hire young people rather than persons of a certain age, feeling that young employees will adapt themselves more easily than older ones.
Another factor also causes this discrimination. It is the question of portable old age pensions. That question was discussed many times in this house, and I have no intention of bringing it back tonight. I merely wished to recall it to the attention of the house.
I was saying a while ago that, faced with this problem, I had wanted to go more deeply into it. I therefore studied what was done to stop this discrimination in other countries and especially in the American states.

Labour Conditions
Therefore, I welcome this opportunity for all of us to discuss this motion I have put before this house since 1956. The fact that we have not had an opportunity to discuss the matter since 1958 does not mean that I did not raise the question in this house. Every year in the debate on the labour department estimates, I appealed to the Minister of Labour and to the government to introduce a legislation providing for the removal of that discrimination.
The problem facing the worker who is 45 years of age or over is well known to all members of this house. It is a very serious problem and ever since I put it before the house, I received each year many representations from people all across Canada who are bent on making a stand against that discrimination.
Today, I would like to read into the official record of the house excerpts from some letters I have received.
In April 1960, I received from Mr. Xavier Lefebvre, to whom the civil service commission in Montreal had refused employment on account of his age, a letter in which he said:
I hope my government will help people over 45 to get employment In the service of our country.
A Mrs. Routhier, also of Montreal, complained also that she had been unable to secure employment on account of her age. Here is what she wrote me on July 10, 1959:
I worked as a bilingual private secretary for over 10 years. At the present time, there is an age limit, due in part to pension funds, which means that if you were not lucky enough to start working for some companies before reaching a certain age which entitles you to a pension upon retirement, you are refused employment because you are too old.
Last week I received a letter from Mr. Armand Couture of Montreal, in which he said:
-an individual 60 years old or more is too old to work-
Mr. Couture complained also about the fact that government authorities could have such a queer philosophy, and he added ironically:
At 60, a man is too old to do something good and useful for his country.
Mr. Speaker, other public men have reacted against such discrimination and to support this, I should like to quote none other than the former premier of Ontario, Mr. Frost, who stated, according to the newspaper Le Droit in its issue of March 10, 1959:

We should seriously consider this situation where some people cannot get employment, even in some provincial departments, because they are 40 years old or over. A man of 60 or even 65 may be as qualified as another who is under 40.
In 1959, the hon. member for Oxford (Mr. Nesbitt) examined the question in the house and tried to find means of eliminating such discrimination.
The same year, Mr. Thomas Thomas, a
C.C.F. member of the Ontario legislature criticized the fact that one had to be less than 45 years old to pass an examination of the Ontario government or to get a job with the Department of Transport.
The C.C.F. leader in Ontario, Donald MacDonald, then suggested that legislation should be adopted at the provincial level to put an end to such discrimination against people 45 years of age or over.
The Prime Minister of Canada (Mr. Diefen-baker) himself expressed concern about the situation in a speech he made not so long ago. I would be remiss if I did not quote the comments made by the Toronto daily Star on March 17, 1961, concerning that speech. The article reads as follows:
(Text):
The Prime Minister himself, an energetic 67, is a demonstration that a man over 60 is not necessarily ready for the shelf. While there are many who would like to see Mr. Diefenbaker sent into retirement by the electors, it is not because age has dimmed his faculties.
(Translation):
I do not have before me the latest statistics concerning the unemployed persons of 45 and over, but I have the official statistics for 1959 which were given to me by the Department of Labour. According to those statistics, there were, on January 17, 1959, 143,000 unemployed 45 years of age and over.
The present Minister of Labour (Mr. Starr) has given the problem his personal consideration, and according to the Ottawa Journal for May 8, 1959, he said:
(Text):
Labour minister Starr hopes to convince Canadian employers they are taking a shortsighted view on the question of older workers. ''I hope to be able to bring this home to employers across the country", he said in a Commons discussion Thursday of labour department spending estimates. He did not say how this would be done, beyond mentioning that the department's economic research branch has been making studies of the problem. Some firms were placing "ridiculous" upper age limits on the persons they would employ. A few companies would not hire anyone older than 35, Mr. Starr said it was a "downright fallacy" to think that younger workers were always to be preferred. It was also poor economics.

(Translation):
Mr. Speaker, by these few examples, I think I helped the house realize that a means must be found to check such discrimination. It is not enough, as the Minister of Labour has done, to make recommendations to the employers of this country. The government of Canada must take the lead in passing legislation that will eliminate such discrimination in the sector of our economy under the federal administration.
I confess that for the last few years a serious effort has been made in order to convince Canadian employers and Canadian industrialists to do something in order to cope with this problem. With this end in view, I wish to quote a few pamphlets one of which was published by the unemployment insurance commission in 1959. This publication was addressed to Canadian employers and said:
Our national employment service branches throughout Canada report that employers tend to increasingly recognize the advantage of hiring older workers.
The reason for that is quite simple.
Thanks to their skill and experience the output of mature workers is of better quality and brings in higher profits for the employer.
Therefore, if we are asking to consider the advisability of hiring older men and women who are able to work efficiently, it is not so much for humanitarian reasons (those people are not asking for charity), but we are rather trying to appeal to your sound business acumen.
The civil service commission authorities themselves, in a report submitted to the House of Commons in July 1960, agreed not to impose any age limit except for serious reasons.
Through a series of spot announcements employers in all the Canadian provinces were invited by the national employment office to hire middle-aged workers. It was said, among other things:
It is too bad that so many Canadian men and women are denied the right to earn their living because of their age, for the simple reason that the employer prefers younger persons.
Another spot announcement released in 1959 went as follows:
If you hire an employee over 40 years, you will be sure of getting an experienced, mature and responsible person.
These examples show that efforts were exerted by the unemployment insurance commission and by the Department of Labour as well, in order to urge Canadian employers not to discriminate against workers aged 45 or more.
Labour Conditions
On the other hand, I submit that that is not sufficient. Decisive steps must be taken in order to stop such discrimination and I feel that the government would do well to enact as soon as possible a piece of legislation which would solve this problem.
Such legislative steps have been taken by some American states, comprising New York. Indeed, in June 1958, that state enacted a law similar to the ones which were already in force in Pennsylvania, Rhode Island and Massachusetts.
Here is what the newspaper Dimanche Matin of June 15, 1958, had to say in connection with this law:
Under the provisions of the new New York law, it is illegal for a prospective employer to require an applicant to state his age. Moreover, the usual tag: "Age 21 to 35" will no more be allowed in classified ads appearing in daily or weekly newspapers, on the radio or on T.V. It will also be forbidden to advertise for a person under 45 years of age, as we often see in the newspapers.
Employers will not be allowed, in future, to mention any age in their ads in newspapers, magazines, periodicals, etc. The words: "Young man" and "Young girl" will also be forbidden.
Private employers as well as public and other employers will be required, in future, to accept applications from unemployed persons under or over 45 years of age and consider them on their merit.
The government would be well advised to seek inspiration from laws passed by various American states and by eastern Germany in 1959, with a view to preventing discrimination.
As I said earlier, what the government and members of this house can do in order to solve this problem would be, first of all, to set an example to Canadian employers and provincial governments by passing a legislation that would condemn any policy of discrimination in fields coming under the government's jurisdiction.
This legislation could apply to different sectors of the economy which come under the government's purview and are defined as follows in section 2, chapter 38, of the Statutes of Canada, 1956:
(i)	works, undertakings or business operated or carried on for or in connection with navigation and shipping, whether inland or maritime, including the operation of ships and transportation by ship anywhere in Canada;
(ii)	railways, canals, telegraphs and other works
(iii)	lines of steam and other ships connecting a province with any other or others of the provinces, or extending beyond the limits of a province;
(iv)	ferries between any province and any other province or between any province and any country other than Canada;
(v)	aerodromes, aircraft and lines of air transportation;
(vi)	radio broadcasting stations;
(vii)	banks and banking;

Labour Conditions
And the different crown corporations such as the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, Trans-Canada Air Lines, as well as all the corporations established by the Canadian parliament.
I feel that, in so doing, the federal government would set an example not only for private enterprise but also for our various provincial legislatures.
After such a measure had been passed, it would be a good thing to call a federal-provincial conference to discuss whether it would be advisable for the provinces to follow in the footsteps of the Canadian parliament so that in each of them there would be legislation prohibiting all forms of discrimination towards persons and workers of 45 years and over.
That legislation should provide severe penalties for employers who do not obey it. I am also thinking of the suggestion submitted a few years ago by the hon. member for Oxford that a tax deduction be granted to industries employing a certain number of workers aged 45 and over. I think that that suggestion should be taken into consideration.
In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, I should like to appeal to every hon. member in this house, regardless of their party to become conscious of that problem and, by supporting this notice of motion, to ask the government, and especially the Minister of Labour, to introduce at this session legislation conceived to remove that discrimination.


Mr. Marcel Lessard (Lake St. John):: Mr. Speaker, I do not want to take up too much of the time of this house, but I want to take advantage of the debate on this notice of motion presented by the hon. member for Dollard (Mr. Rouleau) to support the remarks he has just made in this house.
Being myself a working man, I have been in a position to notice on the spot, as he did, the problem that arises in our economy today because citizens 45 years old and over cannot easily find employment in our country.
This is an unfortunate situation because in plants employees 45 years of age and over are usually the most qualified to do the work, and I feel that their experience and steadiness deserve to be taken into consideration.
I am of the opinion that it would be fully to the advantage of our industry to give special attention to the workers 45 years old and over.
I think that those people, more so than anybody else, have their employer's interests at heart. Through their experience and the work they have done in the past, I think they render the employer and the businessman a service that cannot be expected from a young
[Mr. Rouleau.)
man starting in this kind of work. The young man's assets are his spirit, his energy, his good will, but on the other hand he has against him his lack of experience in many fields and sometimes he is not serious enough.
I, myself, had the experience of directing groups of men at work, and I can assure the house that it is much easier to direct men of 45 years and over and obtain from them a reasonable maximum effort.
Mr. Speaker, this notice of motion from the hon. member for Dollard deserves to be considered by the Minister of Labour (Mr. Starr). I invite him to think it over and I beg the members and the government to consider in more detail the case of our citizens who find it difficult now to get employment because of their age.
That also underlines the fact that very often, our citizens who are compelled to retire at the age of 65, cannot maintain a reasonable standard of living because of the small pension they receive. That is why pressure is brought to bear more and more on our legislators so that the age at which a person can receive the old age pension be lowered to 65. Thus, those Canadians could, at the time they retire, have a sufficient income and enjoy the same standard of living as their fellow citizens.
The members of our group support the motion introduced by the hon. member for Dollard and, in my opinion, the government should take it into consideration.
If our economy were healthier, I am sure we would easily find some employment for those people and would gladly give them some work.
As a proof of that, one merely has to recall the war years. At that time, even people over 70 had permanent employment to help meet our needs. I feel that if we were in a similar situation today, we would once again call upon those people to fill the vacancies on the labour market.
Without further ado, I wish to assure the hon. member for Dollard of the wholehearted support of our group.
(Text) :


Mr. M. W. Martin (Timmins):: Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to have the opportunity today to say a few words on this most serious problem which is highlighted by the motion presented by the hon. member for Dollard (Mr. Rouleau). This is a very serious problem.

It is not only serious but it is a growing problem, and not only a growing problem but an inevitable one. As sure as the sun rises in the east and sets in the west each and every one of us, if we live long enough, will reach the age of 45 and then we will become eligible for the dubious treatment that people 45 and over are accorded in this country at the present time, and have been in the past.
Men and women who are able to offer another 20 or 25 years of excellent service to their country find themselves in the position where, if they become unemployed, in far too many cases they are unable to get employment. Why is this so? The reason simply is that they have reached the age of 45 or over.
I think we should look first of all at why these people find themselves out of work. I would say that in this changing world certainly the main cause is automation, because we must remember that if they are 45 years old they must have been providing for their livelihood for some 20, 25 or possibly 30 years. Why then should they find themselves unemployed at the age of 45 or over? In my view automation is certainly one of the reasons. Automation, of course, and its effect on these people 45 years of age or over is one problem we have never come to grips with in this country.
But it is not enough to know the reason why so many people of this age are unemployed. I think we should also examine the reasons why they remain unemployed. As I have said, most people of 45 years of age are still able to give many years of service to their country and are well able to carry on whatever duties may be assigned to them. I have talked to many employers across the country who are more than willing to employ people of this age because they have attributes that they did not have when they were 20 or 25 years younger. Why is it not possible for employers who are willing to employ these people to do so? I think we will find that one of the major reasons is that throughout the country today there is a great hodgepodge of pension plans which are mostly under the jurisdiction of private insurance companies and it is not profitable for an insurance company to insure a person of that age. These people do not have enough years left for private insurance companies to set up a plan that will be profitable.
Therefore what we really have is a situation where people have 20 or 25 years left during which they could provide for their own livelihood and that of their children, if they still have to do so, and could be employed with profit to the employer, but they cannot get work because of the hodgepodge of pension plans we now have. As I say, this is one of the major reasons for the present discrimination.
Labour Conditions
If we cast our eyes ahead to resolution no. 33 on the order paper we will see there one that I hope to have the opportunity to introduce during this session. This resolution provides for a portable pension plan under which the benefits could be carried from job to job. I believe this would solve the problem we are discussing much better than the resolution before us today. However, that is another debate and I hope we will have the opportunity to debate that issue in the house.
It does no good just to wring our hands, feel sorry for these people and say something should be done. It is obvious that industry is unable to cope with the problem. Up to now at least it has certainly been obvious that no government this country has had has been able to cope with the problem, but I do say that there is a need for government to take the lead in this field. I believe that once government takes the lead it will not be too long before industry will start to follow; but industry will not do anything as long as it has the excuse that the government has not done anything about the matter.
One of the disadvantages that I see in the motion now before the house is that even if it were passed by the house and put into effect it would apply to a greater degree in certain areas of the country than in others. Certainly government projects are not evenly distributed throughout the country. However, Mr. Speaker, I wish to provide an opportunity for other hon. members to speak on this very important matter. Therefore I will conclude by saying that I should like to compliment the hon. member for Dollard on introducing this resolution which is good as far as it goes, and having regard to that fact we heartily support it.


Mr. G. H. Aiken (Parry Sound-Muskoka):: Mr. Speaker, I agree that the problem of the older worker is one that requires the very careful attention and serious consideration of the government. The subject has been discussed in this house many times. The first time I recall it being discussed was on a motion moved by the hon. member for Oxford (Mr. Nesbitt). Since that time the subject has been discussed on several occasions. I believe that the question of legislation is secondary to that of the education of the public to the ability of the older worker to do a job which is equal to, and in many cases, better than the younger worker. The Minister of Labour (Mr. Starr) has taken a number of steps to improve the public knowledge of what the older worker can do. Some of these studies have been referred to by the hon. member who introduced the motion as well as by other hon. members. I think the Minister of Labour himself is

Labour Conditions
convinced from the actions he has taken and the studies that have been undertaken, that the older worker does have a difficult problem. He has made this statement in the house on many occasions.
There are two main points upon which I would agree with the mover of this motion. First, there is in this country an age discrimination against the older worker. Second, pension problems are, to some extent, responsible for the fact that the older worker does have difficulty in securing a job. There is a great deal of misunderstanding, but I think a lot of that misunderstanding has been cleared up by several of the studies to which I will refer that were instituted by the minister.
The first, and I think most effective study that was made is reported upon in a document entitled, "The Aged Worker in the Canadian Economy". This report was published by the economics and research branch of the Department of Labour. The booklet contains a very thorough study of the incidence of labour problems amongst the aged. The report does not purport to come to a conclusion on the problem except to indicate that the problem of the older worker is going to increase as time goes on because of the increase in the life expectancy of the individual.
However, some other studies have certainly shown the fallacy of the belief that the older worker is incompetent. I should like to refer to a small pamphlet entitled, "2 Minutes of Employment Facts." This is a series published by the Department of Labour, and this issue concerns age and performance in the retail trade. I should like to quote briefly from this pamphlet:
A large part of the continuing campaign to reduce the employment problems of older workers must necessarily be devoted to refuting the mistaken ideas and the prejudice which so often create artificial barriers against the hiring of workers over 40. Such ideas can be countered only by presenting to employers the proven facts about the abilities and qualities of older workers. To add to the store of such basic information, the economics and research branch of the Department of Labour, on the request of the interdepartmental committee on older workers, undertook a survey in the retail trade-an industry which employs more than ten per cent of Canadian workers and stands third among all the industries in the employment it provides.
I do not intend to read the whole pamphlet, but there is one paragraph which indicates the general trend of the report.
The study showed, first of all, that the older sales employee has at least as good a record of performance as the younger employee, with those over 46 having a better than average performance record. Peak performance seems to be reached between the ages of 51 and 55.

Then, there is a similar pamphlet entitled, "Pension Plans and the Employment of Older Workers.,, On this particular point, I agree with the hon. member for Timmins when he says that the portability of pensions is one of the matters that can bring about some relief for the older worker. I believe that many employers hesitate to take on people who will actuarially increase the cost of the pension scheme that they have set up. This particular pamphlet reads in part as follows:
Most obstacles to the employment of older workers and to their retention in employment must sooner or later diminish for they are based on nothing more substantial than prejudice.
Then, there is a report entitled, "The Efficiency of the Aged." This study also was instigated by the Minister of Labour. He sent out a number of letters to employers around the country, and a significant part of the report reads as follows:
In almost every case, the replies to these letters indicated that the hiring practices in firms engaged in clothing manufacture were based not only on age but simply on whether the job applicant could perform the work involved. As one company spokesman stated, our company has never taken into consideration the age of the person to be employed as we are more interested in the qualifications and abilities of our employees.
I wish, Mr. Speaker, that all employers in this country, including the federal and provincial governments, would adopt this as a basis for employment, that is the ability of the person to do the job, and not his age. If that principle were generally accepted, then the problem we have before us today would not be nearly as great. There are many occupations, and I think they are obvious, in which the older worker is actually much better than the younger worker. A job which requires the stability and care of an older worker means that he will be more efficient in that job.
There are many other studies, Mr. Speaker, and undoubtedly there are other hon. members who would like to speak on this subject. I would merely say, in conclusion, that I agree with the principle that the older worker must be given some special consideration. Whether or not the adoption of this resolution would result in the achievement of this desirable result, I do not know. I do know that the Minister of Labour has undertaken many studies and published the information in many pamphlets sent out by the Department of Labour to bring to the attention of the public the fact that the older worker can be just as efficient as the younger worker. I feel if this point can be impressed upon the public, it will be more effective than legislation which is, in essence, compulsory.


Paul Joseph James Martin: If I thought there was no one else who wished to speak [DOT]on this subject and we could have a vote, I would be happy to forgo my speech. I take it, however, that the hon. member for Bow River desires to speak.


Mr. Woolliams:: Yes, I do.


Paul Joseph James Martin: In that event, we would be denied the opportunity of having a vote on this matter. Since that is the case, perhaps as the representative of one of the major industrial ridings in our country I would be expected to say a word on this important subject. The hon. member who has just spoken said the particular recommendations made in this resolution might not be the way to effect a settlement of this problem. In any event, I am sure we all agree that the proposer of the resolution has served a useful purpose in bringing this question to the attention of the Minister of Labour, of the government, and of the house. This is a serious subject. Admittedly, this has presented a serious problem in our country for many years. It is not one which has arisen only since the present government came into being, nor is that the suggestion made by the proposer of the resolution which is now before us. It is a symptom of our time; it is a symbol of a stage in the development of our society. Nevertheless, it presents a challenge. Our technological advance has increased the severity of the situation and made a solution more urgent than ever.
We all recall the existence in our country of what are called "Forty five and over" clubs in which men in that age group formed themselves into an association for the purpose of impressing governments at all levels with the desirability of taking their plight into account. It is easy for us, when we are dealing with broad issues, when we are dealing with statistics, to overlook the human tragedy involved in many of the stories behind the statistics, behind the generalizations, behind the broader pictures that we paint in our statements in this house. It is a fact that there are thousands of people in this country who because of their age are denied an opportunity to work. Age is not the only reason in many instances, but in many instances it is the reason. We see evidence of this in the number of people who move from one job to another.
I have in my own riding now an engineer from one of the best universities in this country, who only ten days ago was given notice that his services with a particular company would no longer be required-not because his services were not valuable, but because there would no longer be need for his particular skills, automation having replaced them. Now
Labour Conditions
he is out on the street and he has been told by two prospective employers that they cannot give him work, simply because he is over a certain age. Now, this is a tragedy. It is a tragedy for that man. It is a tragedy for his family and it is bound to have its consequences on our society.
Some progress has been made, notably by voluntary effort, toward mitigating the severity of this serious social and economic situation. Among the unemployed in our country we find many men and women in this particular age category who are unable to obtain employment. It has been suggested that if something were done about the portability of pensions the problem would be somewhat reduced. I believe we have got to do something about the portability of pensions though that, in itself, is not the real solution-it would merely be a provision, a necessary form of relief to men and women in this age group who cannot obtain work. Nevertheless, in the absence of a real solution it would afford some relief, and I think, therefore, it is desirable we should do something about it.
I do not think the government of the day has taken every step within its power to bring about the portability arrangement which would provide the kind of relief suggested. We have been talking about the portability of pensions, now, for three years in this house and no substantial progress has been made. If the government of the day wished, in co-operation with the provinces, to take the necessary steps to bring this about, it could be done. Undoubtedly there is a constitutional difficulty. It is not open to the federal government to make pensions portable from one province to another under the present provisions of section 91 of the British North America Act. That can only be brought about, of course, by the provinces agreeing to the necessary constitutional amendment, or through some co-operative arrangement being made between the two senior levels of government. I suggest, in a constructive way, to the Minister of Labour and to the Minister of Finance who has some residual interest in this matter, that this should be undertaken at the earliest possible moment.
The problem presented by the denial of work to people because of their age may have been aggravated by the increase in the life expectancy. We cannot avoid giving serious consideration to ways and means by which a solution can be effected. I am suggesting that the government now has at its disposal one of the vehicles by which we could make some indentation on the full consequences of this unfortunate situation. I draw attention to the joint and unanimous recommendations which were made by the special mission to

Labour Conditions
Europe of a group composed of Canadians from the productivity council representing various segments in our national life. After a study of conditions in Europe, that mission made a unanimous recommendation as to the course which should be followed in this country with respect to labour-management-government co-operation. That report must not be allowed to gather dust. In my judgment it is one of the most significant documents ever presented in this area to a government in this country.
The productivity council recognized that production in Canada depends upon a number of factors. It recognized that among these factors was the distrust which persists in this country to an alarming degree between at least two of the partners in industry. In an effort directed to removing this mistrust, the council established this special mission to Europe. The mission visited a number of countries and examined the whole question of labour-management-government co-operation. I recommend to all hon. members of this house who have not yet had an opportunity of perusing this report to do so. It is made up of recommendations which represent the unanimous thinking of representatives of the Canadian Congress of Labour, men like Mr. Dodge, one of the vice presidents of that body; the president of the Goodrich Rubber Company, the president of the University of Western Ontario and others of this calibre. They reported that there was a serious gap between the extent of labour-management-government co-operation in this country as compared with the level of collaboration which prevails in this area in Europe. It will be noted that in Europe, particularly in countries like France and Sweden, special consideration is given to employees in certain age groups. Among these age groups is to be found consideration for the particular age group, or something like the particular age group referred to in this resolution. The employers and employees, backed up with leadership and support given by government, take into account the economic and social dislocation that results from putting people out of work because of age as well as other factors.
We do not do anything like this in this country. I am not blaming the government. I am not dealing with the problem in a narrow, political way, because it is too important, in my judgment, to receive this particular interpretation. I am seeking to address myself to the problem in the light of the fact that it exists, has existed, and something must be done about it. I feel that in the recommendations made by the special commission to Europe of the productivity

council something can be done, if labour, management and government sitting together, not in positions of distrust and antagonism, but each recognizing that each has a responsibility and a right to participate in industry, along with the community. Something can be done if we will address ourselves to all the problems involved; this is one of the problems.
I should like to see the Minister of Labour take the lead in this situation. I know he is interested in it; I know he has been interested in it for a number of years. I know he would have done something about it a few years ago if it had not been for the intransigent position taken by certain of his colleagues in the government who were opposed to setting up the kind of instrument for co-operation about which I have been speaking.
I make that statement knowing it to be the case. The hon. member for Parry Sound-Muskoka nods his head. I hope he is not making a political nod. But I am saying this problem was before the government two years ago. I hope, nothing having been done then, that with the inspiration which has been given by this unanimous report of the special commission to Europe named by the productivity council the particular machinery suggested will be used to address itself to this problem and to many other problems which we have in our country and which have such a definite relation to an improvement in the relations between the various partners in industry, an improvement which has a very definite bearing, in my judgment, on the improvement of economic conditions in our country.
I think that the hon. member who has proposed this resolution has done a worth while service in bringing to the attention of the house the existence of this problem.


Eldon Mattison Woolliams: Mr. Speaker, in rising to speak on this resolution I would first like to join with all other hon. members who have spoken this afternoon in congratulating the hon. member for Dollard for presenting the resolution. I agree in this regard with the hon. member for Essex East, that the resolution has served its purpose in bringing this matter before the house.
I would like at the outset to say this. I think the present Minister of Labour has done the very thing the hon. member for Essex East has been suggesting. Over the years that he has been Minister of Labour he has been able to sit down with management and labour unions. I am going to have something to say about this, because there is a large group of workers, members of unions, in my riding, as there is also in the riding of the hon. member for Essex East. The

Minister of Labour has been able to sit down with management and groups representing unions and he has discussed these problems with them, with their co-operation. I think this is the question we have to ask and answer.
It is always difficult to follow the hon. member for Essex East in that regard, having to decide what side of the fence he was really on. But I would like to ask him, could the federal government at the present time bring in legislation to cover what the resolution asks for; and if so, how are we going to enforce that act in question? I come back to the original premise with which I started. I would just ask hon. members to look at the record of the minister in settling disputes, misunderstandings sometimes, references to hours, working out wages with management and labour. He has accomplished more than any other minister of labour has in the time he has held that portfolio. I am sure that is the kind of co-operation the hon. member for Essex East was discussing when he was speaking on this subject a few minutes ago.
Who was it brought in the productivity council? Who was it brought in vocational training? Those are measures that were brought in by this government, which have been of great assistance in this regard. Mr. Speaker, my time is just about up but I would like to cover one question. The hon. member for Essex East talks about this government having omitted to do things in this regard. The saddest thing he could see is this. I invite him to the constituency of Bow River to see the people who were out of work in 1956 and 1957 at East Coulee and Drumheller, people who were brought there by the former government. Those are the people-
(Translation):


Guy Rouleau: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, I respectfully submit that the hon. member is entirely out of order and that he should come back to the matter before us. As it seems to me that the bill is being talked out, I suggest that he revert to the subject matter immediately. (Text):


Eldon Mattison Woolliams: I would just like to finish this point, Mr. Speaker. Those men were brought there to the coal mining areas of Bow River. They were dumped and left there after the war. Many of those men who were out of work in 1956 and 1957 were 45 years of age and over. These are some of the men who left there after the war and were unemployed in 1955 and 1956. It was the action of this government that enabled us to sell the coal from Canmore, Alberta and the Crowsnest pass to Japan, which enabled these
Ways and Means
people from the city of Drumheller who were over age to go to those other areas and get employment. That is some of the action taken by this government. Those are some of the things the Minister of Labour and his colleagues supported. So when criticism comes from an hon. member from a riding which he says is highly industrialized, and he talks about unemployment, those are some of the things-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hour appointed for consideration of private members' business having now expired, we will revert to the business that was interrupted at five o'clock.



[Stage Direction]
The house in committee of ways and means, Mr. Paul in the chair.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.

AFTER RECESS

The committee resumed at 8 p.m.
Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Chairman, at five o'clock I had just said that the government had established a fantastic record of deceit and it had shown complete lack of integrity.


Gordon Minto Churchill: And I said it was false.


Lionel Chevrier: The hon. member who interrupted me said it was false, and I intend to put the evidence on the record. The evidence I intend to put on the record is a statement which was given just a short while ago by the Leader of the Opposition on the subject of foreign exchange reserve losses, with which we are concerned. He said:
The information made available by the government late on Friday, in response to a Liberal motion, for the day-to-day losses of foreign exchange demonstrates conclusively that the exchange emergency began before the election and was hidden by the government. It shows that a rapid loss of exchange began on April 30, which was apparently temporarily halted by the pegging of the Canadian dollar at $0,921 on May 3; that a second rapid loss of exchange began on May 31 and continued to June 4; and a third rapid loss began on June 12 and continued throughout the week before the general election on June 18. The greatest loss for any single day before the election was the loss on June 12, two days before the Prime Minister's final election telecast. The statement by the ex-minister of finance to the Canadian club in Toronto on October 1 that "it was not until the third full week of June that the average daily loss of reserves rose to serious proportions" is therefore not true. Serious losses began at the beginning of June and intensified on June 12. On October 2 the Prime Minister stated: "The intensification in the loss of exchange started in earnest on the fifteenth. The sixteenth was a Saturday, the seventeenth a Sunday. These figures tell their story and answer

Ways and Means
once and for all the allegation that we had anything to conceal during the month of June that we did not place before the Canadian people."
When the Leader of the Opposition asked the Prime Minister why he did not mention any aspect of the foreign exchange crisis in his broadcast to the Canadian people of June 14, the Prime Minister replied:
Because as I have pointed out, the situation was not serious then.
Now listen to this.
The figures supplied by the government, which we now have before us, show a total loss

That is to say, deliveries of exchange to the market.
-of $50 million on May 31, June 1 and June 4, three successive business days; and a loss of $35.3 million on June 12; a loss of $17.4 million on June 13; $17 million on June 14. Or, a total of almost $70 million in the three days before the Prime Minister's last campaign telecast. In fact, the loss on June 15, when the Prime Minister said the loss "started in earnest", was not as great as it was on June 12. In other words, the government tried to conceal the facts of the crisis from the people before the election, and from parliament afterwards.


Michael Starr: Just nonsense.


Lionel Chevrier: Those facts are contained in the return, and they have been disclosed on the initiative taken by the opposition. The government has been obliged to furnish the evidence. The figures released on Friday do not tell the whole story because they do not reveal the government's foward trading on the foreign exchange market; but they do leave no doubt that the country was facing acute exchange losses throughout April and early May, and again from the end of May onward to June 18. So I conclude that I have every right to say what I did before five o'clock-that the government has deceived the house and the Canadian people.
I return now to the statement made by the Minister of Finance when beginning the debate. That clearly shows that even at this late hour there is no sign of improvement on the part of the government's attitude. The new minister used the same approaches, the same distortions to hide the real facts of the economic affairs of our country, and he showed the same lack of understanding of our difficulties which was so typical of his arrogant predecessor. The only difference between the two is that the minister was more candid and more succinct in his statement than his long-winded predecessor, the new Minister of Justice. The new Minister of Finance, however, had the audacity to say that 1962 will be the most prosperous year in our history.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Lionel Chevrier: Wait till you hear this. On the basis of such an erroneous statement, how

can he expect to be taken seriously, not only by this house but by the country? What are the facts? For the first three quarters of 1962; unemployment has remained, on the average, at 6.2 per cent, which is exactly what it has been since 1957, as compared to 3 per cent between 1947 and 1957. Moreover, in spite of the temporary recovery in 1962-and here is another barometer-our gross national product in constant dollars per capita will be lower than it was in 1956. Since this is the best measure of our progress and prosperity, how can the minister justify his own statement?
What is the true picture and the true barometer of the economic situation of the country at the moment? Mr. Chairman, it can be summarized under three heads. First, 1962, like 1959, will be the peak of the short cycle. Second, 1963 like 1960, will mark the beginning of another recession-


Some hon. Members:: Doom.


Lionel Chevrier: -of another pause or of another slowdown.


Some hon. Members:: And gloom.


Lionel Chevrier: Third, when those cyclical forces are put to one side we realize that the Canadian economy continues to suffer from stagnation as well as from structural unemployment. I challenge the Minister of Finance to find any impartial observer of the economic scene who will disagree with that general statement I have just made. And yet the minister, in his statement, chose to boast about the immediate past instead of announcing new policies designed to meet the difficulties of the immediate future. This government will never learn how to do its job efficiently and properly.
I remember very well what happened in 1960, particularly in the month of April, when the Leader of the Opposition warned the former minister of finance that we were on the eve of another recession and asked him what he intended to do about it, just as we are asking now about 1963 and being interrupted by those jeers. Listen to what the then minister of finance had to say, as reported on page 3167 of Hansard for April 12, 1960:
The Leader of the Opposition was so anxious this afternoon to get everybody talking recession with him he was in effect asking the Minister of Finance what preparations he was making for the next recession. The best preparation that can be made for the next recession is to continue the present government in office.
Well, this was, as I stated, on April 12, 1960, and we all know now that when the minister was making this silly, arrogant statement the recession was starting, that it continued until the end of the first quarter of

1961, and that the government did absolutely nothing to prevent or to minimize it. I doubt whether many of the ministers who sit on the other side of the chamber even knew that it existed. Today we are in the same position. Today we are in exactly the same position as that in which we were then. All impartial observers agree that there will be a slowdown in 1963. In August-and that is not so long ago-the President of the United States told the United States people that such was the outlook and that the United States government was already making preparations to minimize that recession. What do we get from the government in Canada? They boast about the past but they refuse to plan for the immediate future. They even refuse to look at it. That is another reason why we on this side of the chamber have no confidence whatsoever in this government. We have no confidence in this government, not only because of its lack of integrity, as I showed a moment ago, but also because of its failure to understand and to deal with our economic difficulties. After what I have put on the record I ask you, Mr. Chairman, this question: How can anyone explain the conduct of my friends over to my left? I refer to the Social Credit party who, notwithstanding their charges, systematically voted to uphold this government. I ask the committee to listen to this and to note the attitude of the Minister of Finance on this matter when, as reported at page 336 of Hansard, he stated as follows:
The Social Credit party, according to its pronouncements, stands fairly and squarely on its principle of supporting the maintenance of private enterprise in this country. This government does likewise, Mr. Speaker. In the division which this house saw the other evening you saw a division on principle. You saw parties supporting private enterprise on the one hand, and the socialists and pseudo-socialists divided against them on the other.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Chairman, I would advise hon. members not to laugh too quickly. I should like to put on the record the report of an interview which was given by the hon. member for Villeneuve to a correspondent in Noranda on September 22 of this year. I ask the Minister of Finance to pay particular attention to this interview:
What are the ideological differences between you and your leader, Mr. Thompson?
Those are words addressed to the hon. member for Villeneuve.
He is not my leader, denied Mr. Caouette, he is only my party colleague. There are no specific ideological differences. He has his own group; he is too slow, while I am "a ball of fire". Thompson speaking in the west and in Toronto, asserted that
Ways and Means
he would curb my statements during the conference in Three Rivers. But he was sitting at the conference quietly like a "mouse" and applauded me smiling sweetly.
Will you introduce a motion of non-confidence against the government of J. Diefenbaker in the near future?
Not before the spring, answered Caouette, toward the end of the parliamentary session.
(Translation):


Gilles Grégoire: What is the name of the newspaper?


Lionel Chevrier: L'Alliance.


Gilles Grégoire: What date?
An hon. Member; A Liberal newspaper.


Gilles Grégoire: The chartered banks' newspaper.


An hon. Member:: The chartered banks. (Text):


Lionel Chevrier: To continue:
Later we began talking about nazi Germany. Caouette returned to the person of Schaeht and to the economical reforms of the nazis. How little he knows of what was actually going on in Germany, is illustrated by the fact that Caouette declared that Schacht was a Jew and despite his origin he was not liquidated by Hitler. When I expressed my doubt about this, he stated that Hitler exterminated only "useless Jews".
I now address my question to the Minister of Finance. If the minister wishes to associate himself with those sentiments, that is his business. However, I should think that the sentiments implied in that interview are the very antithesis of what the minister has pretended to stand for all his life. My opinion of the minister will go down materially unless he dissociates himself from this group at once. If he does not do so I can only conclude that not only do politics make strange bedfellows but that this government will go to any length in order to remain in office.


Gordon Minto Churchill: You voted for us on October
2.
(Translation):


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Finance has not even made reference to the stagnant state of our economy and to the abnormal unemployment situation inflicted upon us since 1957.


Gilles Grégoire: The banks are to be blamed for it.


Lionel Chevrier: We have stated a number of times-and I wish to repeat it once again- that the volume of our national production, per capita, has increased by 22 per cent from 1949 to 1956, but that it has gone down by 4 per cent since 1956.
Mr. Chairman, that is the most undeniable indication of the present stagnation of our economy, even if the government does not want to face this evidence.

Ways and Means
What is the cause of that stagnation?


Gilles Grégoire: The chartered banks.


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Chairman, the detailed consideration of our public accounts has brought it out to us very clearly.
Our national production or our national expenditures have gone up by 8 per cent only from 1957 to 1961.
Now, of the four groups which make up the total expenditures of the nation-


Gilles Grégoire: Plus interest.


Lionel Chevrier: *-consumers' expenditures have increased by 14 per cent while government expenditures and exports have respectively gone up by 15 per cent. Since these three classes of expenditures have gone up almost twice as fast as our total national production or expenditures, they cannot be the direct cause of the inadequate increase of our total production or expenditures during that period.
Then, there are the expenditures due to private investments. This fourth class of expenditures has gone down by 19 per cent since 1957. So that is the obvious reason of our stagnation. Expenditures, relating to housing construction and non residential construction, as well as purchases of industrial machinery and equipment have decreased by 19 per cent and that is why our total production or expenditures have gone up by only 8 per cent. That is the clear and simple explanation of our inadequate economic growth since 1957. We have said so to the government several times, but they would not listen to us.
The Liberal policy put forward in this house by the Leader of the Opposition, as well as by the hon. member for Davenport (Mr. Gordon), clearly shows what we could do to put a stop to the present stagnation.
I only want to mention briefly some of the points of that program.
First, put a stop to monetary restrictions and lower the interest rates. This will immediately create conditions likely to increase investments.


Gilles Grégoire: Where are you going to get the money?


Lionel Chevrier: Second, establish a loan fund for the municipalities so that they be truly able to invest in all building activities required for the improvement of local services.


Gilles Grégoire: With or without interest?


Lionel Chevrier: Third, increase and extend the financial share of the federal government in slum clearing and urban renewal projects, which will bring about a considerable increase of such forms of investment as the building of healthier housing units.

Fourth, demand from the industrial development bank that it concentrate its activities and services on underprivileged areas, so as to stimulate more extensive investments in those areas.


Gilles Grégoire: Where are you going to find the money?


Lionel Chevrier: And lastly, grant specific tax exemptions to any business which wants to expand and, if necessary, as the Leader of the Opposition suggested before, establish a national economic development fund which would be entrusted with investment promotion arrived at by private enterprise.
There you have, Mr. Chairman, the attitude of the Liberals on the one hand, which is quite clear, with a program designed for everyone, which could be carried out at once, and on the other hand the stagnation program of the Conservatives.


Gilles Grégoire: Promises again.


Lionel Chevrier: But in all this, Mr. Chairman, there is one attitude which remains mysterious: it is that of the Social Crediters. Following the lead of the hon. member for Villeneuve (Mr. Caouette), they pose on T.V. and everywhere else as the champions of the unemployed, the farmers, the poor, the small people and the destitute.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


An hon. Member:: That is true.


Lionel Chevrier: But, in spite of those hypocritical statements, they come into this house and, by their votes, give their systematic support to this dying government, this government which is mainly responsible for the poverty of the people, this government which can only offer to the poor and the unemployed a greater austerity still.
How can the Social Crediters reconcile their vote in this house with their conscience? They know very well that this Conservative government has nothing new to offer. They acknowledge it themselves in their speeches. Why then-


An hon. Member:: May I put a question to the hon. member?


Lionel Chevrier: I shall allow you a question when I have finished my remarks.
Why then do their votes contradict their own words? They know very well, and they say it, that this dying government is incapable of curing the plague of unemployment and of returning prosperity to our country. How-

ever, they have kept in power, by their voting, this helpless government which has nothing to offer to the Canadian people.
I now come back to the point I made earlier, and I should like to read into Hansard an extract from pamphlet 7/62 published by the secretary's office of the Social Credit of Canada. I quote:
(Text):
Basically, Social Credit policy is traditional Toryism or genuine conservatism expressed in terms applying to industrial capitalism.
(Translation):


Gilles Grégoire: What publication is that?


Lionel Chevrier: The Social Crediters should not be shocked by this. It is pamphlet 7/62, published by the secretary's office of the Social Credit, in western Canada, that the Social Credit members-


Gilles Grégoire: I rise on a point of order.


The Deputy Chairman:: Order.


Gilles Grégoire: Do you know what is the title?


Rémi Paul: I suggest that the hon. member for Lapointe-


An hon. Member:: He is a man without manners.


Rémi Paul: I suggest that the hon. member for Lapointe can only put a question with the consent of the hon. member for Laurier. Such is the procedure followed in the house.


An hon. Member:: He does not know that.


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Chairman, the hon. member has not put any question. He is so shocked by these statements that he is unable to utter a question. He has only asked for the source of my quotation, and I have indicated it to him twice.
I say once again that Social Credit members should not take offence when we speak about their alliance with the Conservatives. They have only themselves to blame, because they persist in acting as they do, and they are the ones who describe themselves as traditional Conservatives in their pamphlet. As a matter of fact, they are true Conservatives.


Mr. Denis:: Dispensers of eyewash.


Lionel Chevrier: Let them be brave enough instead to admit what they really are. Let them have the courage to admit openly, not only to their constituents and in this house, the union and alliance which exist, and that everybody can note every day between their party, on the one hand, and the government, on the other hand. But let them have the courage to tell their electors what they really
Ways and Means
are, instead of appearing before them under false pretences, as they have been doing since they sit in this house. This would be more honest and straightforward. And the alliance acknowledged recently-


An hon. Member:: Put that in your pipe and smoke it.


Lionel Chevrier: -by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Nowlan) in this house will be strengthened.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: May I put a question to the hon. member?


Lionel Chevrier: Yes.


An hon. Member:: No. You are not even able to ask questions.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Could the hon. member for Laurier tell us how his party can think of a municipal loan fund which would not step over provincial autonomy?


Lionel Chevrier: It has been clearly stated by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Pearson) in his speech. And throughout the election campaign, we have tried to show to the Canadian people how a municipal loan fund could be applied to the province of Quebec without impinging upon its autonomy, as in all other provinces.
(Text):


Mr. Sevigny:: Mr. Chairman, for the last half hour this chamber has listened to the representations made by the former member for Stormont, now the member for Laurier, the new Ontario leader in Quebec, concerning the economic situation which reigns in Canada at present. We have listened to the hon. member for Laurier tell us that this government of which I am a member deliberately deceived the people during the campaign that led up to the general election. I belonged to this government before June 18, Mr. Chairman, and I still belong to it.
In spite of what hon. members may say, we were elected as the government and I can say that we never deceived the people of Canada. The facts are there to indicate that this run on the Canadian dollar which prompted the measures taken on June 21 came about as a result of a phenomenon which took place between the dates of June 15 and June 21-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Joseph Pierre Albert Sévigny: -the date when the measures were taken, and resulted in an actual run amounting to $270 million taking place-


Lester Bowles Pearson: How many?


Joseph Pierre Albert Sévigny: -against the reserves that we had in Canada, while during the weeks and

Ways and Means
the month preceding that time a sum of only $128 million had been withdrawn. When hon. members say that we deceived the people they are lying to this chamber like they are lying to the people of Canada.
The measures that were taken were necessary and hon. members opposite know that very well. They were taken because any self-respecting government had to take such measures in order to protect the interests of the people whom they were pledged to serve. No, Mr. Chairman, there was no deceit in the action of the government. The only deceit that there is on record on the part of any Canadian government is the deceit that was perpetrated by the former administration, of which the hon. member for Stormont was a member, when in 1957 they deliberately concealed from the people a report which indicated that the economy indeed was sliding downwards, that a rise in unemployment was threatening and that a period of economic depression was probably looming.


Lionel Chevrier: I rise on a question of privilege. My question of privilege is this: I was not a member of this house from 1954 to 1957 and I am not the hon. member for Stormont, I am the hon. member for Laurier.


Joseph Pierre Albert Sévigny: The hon. member can hardly deny that he was the hon. member for Stormont before he was the member for Laurier. But, Mr. Chairman, there was shameful deceit performed in 1957 by the Liberal government that preceded us. I listened to the hon. member for Laurier when he referred to the unemployment that still prevails in Canada. I listened to the tale of gloom and doom with which we have become so familiar in this chamber. I listened to the same story from the hon. member to which we listened for four long years from the opposite benches when we were told that everything in Canada was going to the dogs. Actually, they created unemployment because they scared so many people into shying away from the planned developments which would have added to prosperity.
We listened to this story from the hon. member for Laurier, but the facts are here to disprove him. It seems that for a country that is going into gloom and doom, things are not so bad now. I have before me the edition of Time for this week, and I shall read from it. I read this:
-Prime Minister John Diefenbaker, appearing an the C.B.C.'s Nation's Business last week, was emboldened to declare, characteristically, that "Canada now is enjoying one ol the greatest periods of economic progress in its peacetime history."
Then, the article continues:
Certainly, there was some reason to bask. The gross national product for the first time reached

an estimated $40 billion, a 7 per cent growth in the first nine months and well up to expectations. Ottawa economists saw permanent new muscle in manufacturing, which led all industry with a stable 2 per cent rise in 1962's second quarter, and continued strong into the third. Perhaps accounting more than anything else for the sense of well-being in board rooms was a 3 per cent rise in corporation profits to a record $3.9 billion- no less than 30 per cent above the wintry bottom of 1961. "We'll end the year firmly," predicted one Toronto bank economist. "The economy will level off a bit next year, but not much."
We hear talk about this austerity, this word which our friends opposite like to use so much. I continue to quote:
Despite the austerely high Bank of Canada rediscount rate (down to 5 per cent from June's 6 per cent), the bankers had particular cause to count blessings: bank loans rose in three months by $130 million to a record $6.7 billion by October 3.


Guy Rouleau: Will you read the next paragraph?


Rémi Paul: Order.


Mr. Robichaud:: Read the next paragraph; go on, be frank, give the facts.


Rémi Paul: Order; I would ask the members of the committee not to interrupt the minister. I would like to point out to members of the committee that they have no right to interrupt an hon. member when he is speaking.
(Translation):


Joseph Pierre Albert Sévigny: Mr. Chairman, a few moments ago, the hon. member for Laurier (Mr. Chevrier) spoke on unemployment and tried once more to scare the people of Canada, with the spectre of unemployment which was used by the Liberals as a scarecrow for four years.
The facts are there, Mr. Chairman, and I can prove it by reminding the house that in 1962, more Canadians are at work, earning better pay while putting more money aside than ever before in the history of Canada. The percentage of unemployment is 3.9 per cent and the number of unemployed has gone down to 280,000. Those, Mr. Chairman, are statistics which can hardly be denied by the hon. member for Laurier in spite of his cries of doom of a few moments ago.
Not only is the Canadian economy prosperous, but it has come out of the stagnation in which our hon. opposites had left it. Their negligence and maladministration had resulted in economic tension in this country. But fortunately, the Conservatives corrected the situation.
Our friends opposite mentioned the program which was outlined in the house by the Leader of the Opposition, in the course of the debate on the address. The commend-

able points of that program-as I have said and as I repeat-are copied in their entirety on what was done by the Conservative administration. The remaining good points in that program were borrowed from the New Democratic party by our Liberal friends, who, in their thirst for power are using all and any means they can.
But let us look at that program of which the member for Laurier has quoted a few points. What do we see? We note, for instance, that he has just found out that the Liberals intend to help Canadian municipalities; however, he seems to be forgetting that that is exactly what the Conservative government has been doing for four years. He seems to be forgetting that thanks to the winter works program, the Conservative government has provided employment for over 500,000 workers and paid out over $100 million to municipalities in the nation.
When they mention urban renewal and construction, the hon. members opposite seem to forget something. It is that through the steps taken by the Conservative government, the government of the Right Hon. John G. Diefenbaker, over $2 billion were loaned to building contractors in the nation, allowing the construction of 800,000 new dwellings in Canada. They forget that thanks to the C.M.H.C. millions of dollars have been spent by the Conservative government for the urban renewal of which we were told a few moments ago by the hon. member for Laurier.
Where have they been these last four years? Were they so busy preaching gloom and doom, suffering and poverty that they remained unaware of what was taking place?
Mr. Chairman, listening to our friends opposite, especially the member for Laurier, we could think that if they ever get back into power they will establish a program of economic development which, according to them, will solve the problems that resulted from their own negligence under their own administration.
If we look at their program, we find that what is good has already been done whereas what has not been done is not good, that it is stamped with socialism, a socialism that has no place in a country like ours, that would impose a burden on our trade, in a country like ours which is in full economic development, which is experiencing an upsurge in free enterprise that will enable it to fulfil its destiny.
A while ago, the hon. member for Laurier criticized the Social Crediters because, according to him, they preach principles that resemble those of the Conservative party.
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Mr. Chairman, I prefer men who try to find some good in principles based on logic to men who try to be more socialistic than the socialists themselves. They are firm in their beliefs whereas our Liberal friends opposite merely try to borrow from the socialist theories of the N.D.P. in the hope that that will be a stepping stone to power.
Mr. Chairman, I do not fully approve of the theories put forward by our Social Credit friends, but just the same I have some respect for those men who have come here to suggest forms of government and administration which perhaps deserve to be considered, and which are certainly preferable to the formulas proposed by our Liberal friends, formulas which would lead the Canadian nation to the deepest abyss of socialism, with all its miseries and distress, because we know what miseries and distress are prevalent in those countries where socialism has been adopted.
Mr. Chairman, I have heard my excellent friend, the hon. member for Laurier (Mr. Chevrier), say that the Conservative party has no program and does not go forward. The hon. member does not seem to have read the speech from the throne.
What does the hon. member for Laurier think of the vigorous commercial promotion program already put under way with so much success by the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Hees), who has already succeeded, over a period of 18 months, to increase our exports to all countries of the world? What does the hon. member think of the measure adopted by the house, which doubles the amount of insurance on export credit?
What does he think of those commercial missions which are now travelling around the world and which, enlightened by the representatives of the Department of Trade and Commerce, manage to place orders in those countries which, before, used to sell to us rather than buy from us?
Mr. Chairman, this government has undertaken a sales campaign, which will inevitably bring here in Canada the orders which our business enterprises need and which will permit them to employ surplus labour which, unfortunately, is still unemployed perhaps in some areas.
Mr. Chairman, one should not overlook the fact that in a country like ours, inhabited by only 18 million citizens, which can produce four times more than its needs, one must go outside the country to find the necessary orders to maintain a continuous flow of business for our manufacturers and industrialists.

Ways and Means
The hon. member for Laurier says that we are doing nothing in anticipation of the future. Well, let him consider the measures that we propose in order to give some taxation relief to business enterprises engaged in scientific research.
Let him study the measure that we want to introduce in the house and through which we shall give once more a tax abatement to those business firms which, having increased the amount of their sales and made specific efforts to increase Canadian productivity, deserve the kind attention of the authorities.
The hon. member says that we do nothing for the unemployed. Well, let him consider what we have done with a view to promoting the construction of technical and professional training schools in Canada. He will realize that thanks to the efforts of the federal government, more than 400 projects have been started, at a cost of more than $270 million.
Mr. Chairman, it is a well known fact that the unemployed are found among the large family of day-labourers, and it is also established that those who can learn a trade can find a job as well.
To teach a profession to as many Canadians as possible is one of the aims of this Conservative government. That is one of the objectives we are now achieving and which will be pursued in the months and years ahead.
In another field, Mr. Chairman, for four whole years, our hon. friends have stated that our tax system should be revised. Well, a royal commission has now been appointed to study that taxation system so as fairly and equitably to distribute the tax burden to be borne by Canadians.
We want to develop our natural resources, our oil resources. We want to help the natural gas industry. We want to enter foreign markets to get orders for those products the sale of which is essential to the welfare of the Canadian nation. We want a program based on logic and common sense, and that is why we will be setting up an economic development board, on which the nation's best brains will serve. Together with the Canadian government those experts will apply themselves, in a spirit of fairness, progress and justice, to studying the circumstances which will not only enable the rational development of our natural resources and primary products, but give us the opportunity of treating those prim-
[Mr. SevignyJ
ary and secondary products at home, so that Canadians can use our processed natural resources in the shape of manufactured goods.
That board will be made up of the best experts of the Canadian nation, recruited in financial, industrial, academic and agricultural circles, and wherever people can be found who will enlighten us, who are willing to co-operate with us and work with us hand in hand, in order to build this Canadian nation, as we have been doing successfully for the past four years.
Mr. Chairman, thanks to this economic development council, which is to be established, we shall be able to develop underdeveloped areas in the Canadian nation. We shall see to it that industries are attracted to those areas, which will bring them that same prosperity which abundantly prevails in practically all the other parts of Canada.
What we want to do through this policy of ours is to give full employment to all Canadians, and to see that they earn money and improve a living standard which is already very high in this country.
We shall bring prosperity to the homes and families and with this system we shall do our duty-to serve the best interests of all Canadian citizens.
Yes, Mr. Chairman, thanks to that system, we Conservatives hope to protect the interests of all Canadian citizens, in whatever field of political activity we are operating.
Since coming to power, in June 1957, we have achieved definite results. For instance, let us examine what has been accomplished in the field of social security, and we shall see that the aged, the blind, the invalid and the veteran are better off.
Let us look at what has happened in the field of agriculture. Thanks to the dynamic leadership given by the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Hamilton), today we have markets for our products, and our farmers in the east or the west will know that, due to the federal government's initiative, their products can be sold, their farms will no longer be at a standstill and continued progress will brighten up their horizon.
Look at what we did for our workers. Not only have we improved their lot we also found jobs for them.
That is why I say and I repeat that today more people are at work than at any time in the history of the Canadian nation.

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Through trade, we have spread Canada's name in markets abroad. We developed those markets and provided orders for the industries of the Canadian nation.
Fortunately, the Canadian people trusted us enough to keep us in power on June 18 and give us an opportunity to continue our effort launched June 10, 1957 and we will not relax our efforts until we obtain the desired results.
Mr. Chairman, we had expected in this debate a constructive criticism from our friends opposite.
(Text):
We thought, from the many speeches made by hon. members opposite concerning the economic situation of Canada, that possibly we would glean certain suggestions which would permit us to carry on with the work that we undertook nearly five years ago. But, unfortunately, all we heard was a repetition of what we heard just a moment ago from my hon. friend the member for Laurier; a story of gloom, a story of doom, predictions that 1963 would be frightful, a story which is meant to scare the Canadian people into the belief that with the Liberals things would be better. But actually the reality is that with the Liberals we would have an ultrasocialistic government, not based on the sincerity that would prevail if the hon. members from the New Democratic party were there, but an ultra-socialism based uniquely on a desire for power at all costs, irrespective of the consequences.
Mr. Chairman, socialism is bad. The program based on socialism which is advocated by hon. members opposite would cost so much money that the annual deficit would regularly exceed $1 billion, if it so happened that misfortune befell the Canadian people and my hon. friends opposite got into power.
My hon. friends opposite have no consideration for economic facts or principles. They go to the people with impracticable projects- projects which, for those who do not have facts and figures, may have a certain appeal, but programs which cannot be realized because of their cost and the means at the disposal of government. My hon. friends the Liberals are the same Liberals as those who in a particular province are at present advocating a program which would be so costly,
if it were ever executed the way they wish to execute it, that it would ruin the province in which they wish it executed.
Mr. Chairman, what must be done in sound and sane government is to face the facts, and face especially the reality of the facts, such as the Progressive Conservative government of the Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker has done during the last five years. We have the programs; we have the plans. But we made the programs and the plans, keeping in mind always that this programming must be based on the reality of the facts. Such is not the purpose of my hon. friends opposite. They criticize; they belittle all that is being done. In their mad desire for power they are unfortunately creating a reputation for Canada abroad which is unjustified for this great country. Last year, at the peak of their prophesies of gloom and doom, articles appeared in the British and French press in which the writers of the articles advised the people of their countries not to emigrate to Canada because, according to reports that were received from the politicians of this nation, things were bad in Canada.
All my hon. friends have achieved with their prophesies of gloom and doom is to increase their number of seats in this house compared with the number they held prior to June 18. But they did not achieve the end they desired, which was to cross the aisle and sit on this side of the chamber. The people of Canada know now that this government did not deceive the Canadian people. They realize the power of the facts which they can read in government publications and magazines, facts which they can get from the dominion bureau of statistics. The Progressive Conservative government of the Right Hon. John Diefenbaker has given to this nation a form of government which has led us to our present state of prosperity, the highest state of prosperity ever achieved (Translation):
Mr. Chairman, because Canadians are wise, they like to face reality and wish to be told the truth above all, they will see to it that our friends opposite are kept in the opposition and the Conservative government on the front benches, because it has given them a dynamic and progressive political administration during the last four years, thanks to the program that you have all read in the speech from the throne. This government will lead our nation towards new progress, new prosperity, new understanding within our country and with all the other nations.

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Yes, Mr. Chairman, thanks to that program, Canada's prestige will increase not only within our borders but also outside them.


Azellus Denis: As far as Cuba.


Joseph Pierre Albert Sévigny: Thanks to this program, and to the Conservative administration, Canada will become more-


Azellus Denis: Cuba, to Cuba.


Joseph Pierre Albert Sévigny: -prosperous, and will grow in stature thanks to the present administration. With due respect to my hon. friend the member for Laurier, Canada enjoys a good and sound administration.
Mr. Chairman, in closing I shall say that so long as our hon. friends opposite will come up with constructive suggestions we shall listen to them with pleasure, but we reject those made tonight by the hon. member for Laurier.
(Text):


Gordon Campbell Chown: Order. The hon. member for Vancouver-Kingsway.
(Translation):


Gilles Grégoire: I rise on a question of privilege-
(Text):


Gordon Campbell Chown: Order.


Mr. Webster:: Mr. Chairman, the speech from the throne and the estimates we are now considering remind us that every aspect of the Canadian economy-


Gordon Campbell Chown: Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member for Vancouver-Kingsway, but the hon. member for Lapointe has risen on a question of privilege.
(Translation):


Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Chairman, I rise on a question of privilege. A while ago, the hon. member for Laurier quoted in his speech a publication which he claims comes from a section of the Social Credit. I challenge the hon. member for Laurier-


Some hon. Members:: Order.
(Text):


Gordon Campbell Chown: Order. If there was a question of privilege-and I do not see one in the remarks of the hon. member for Lapointe, because it is a matter for debate-it should have been raised immediately following the remarks of the hon. member for Laurier. However, I find there is not a question of privilege. The hon. member will have his opportunity to comment on and reply to the speech of the hon. member for Laurier in due course as the debate progresses, and if he will-


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Chairman, may I be allowed to say a word on this question-


Mr. Fulton:: Oh, no.


Some hon. Members:: No.


Lionel Chevrier: -because the matter the hon. member for Lapointe raises is a question which he put to me. I replied where the information had been obtained from, and I thought that was the end of it, because the information is quite genuine and authentic. (Translation):


Gilles Grégoire: Yes, Mr. Chairman, but I should like to-
(Text):


Gordon Campbell Chown: Order. Both hon. members have established quite conclusively that it is a matter for debate. The hon. member for V ancouver-Kingsway.
(Translation):


Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Chairman, on the point of order raised by the hon. member for Laurier, what I question is the source of his reference. It is false, Mr. Chairman.
(Text):


Arnold Alexander Webster: Mr. Chairman, I was saying that both the speech from the throne and the estimates we are now considering remind us that every aspect of the Canadian economy is affected, directly or indirectly, by government policy. Ottawa sets the pace not only for federal enterprises but for many local and provincial projects as well. That is why every decision that is made in this house is so vital to the welfare of the entire country. Ottawa, in turn, is subjected to external pressures and influences that make a significant impact upon policy-making in this capital. We have been made aware of this many times during the past month. In truth, we live in a period of rapid change that affects the deliberations of men everywhere in the democratic world. Only in this context can we hope to appreciate our own problems and our own opportunities.
We may remind ourselves that we are the products of the revolutions of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, both political and industrial. This includes the French and American revolutions, and of course our own struggle for responsible government in Upper and Lower Canada just a little over one hundred years ago. The idea that the poor man and the stupid man have the same right to respect and to happiness as the rich man and the clever man is a powerful concept that is moving people everywhere as never before in world history. Why should we look with disapproval or distrust upon millions of men and women in Africa and Asia who take seriously the same battle cries of liberty, equality and fraternity that stirred Europe and America during past centuries? In our own interest and in the interest of world

peace we must try to convince them, by example and by practical assistance, that by using those elements of western civilization that are sound and applicable to their condition they can reach their material goals as free men while retaining the best features of their own cultures. That is why it is regrettable that Canada is budgeting to reduce its contribution to the Colombo plan at the present time.
It is important, too, that we should be honest enough and humble enough to remember that our democracy is far from complete. There is still so very much to do. Certainly it is our responsibility to make necessary adjustments in our own Canadian system of society in order more effectively to meet the needs of today. In political terms this means to be less rigid and more flexible in some of our traditonal attitudes and practices.
The most obvious fact of political life in Canada today is that Canadians are divided among five groups, four of which have substantial representation in this parliament. It is unrealistic to assume that any party represented in this house is likely to be quickly dispersed or discouraged or destroyed. An early election will only emphasize these divisions without providing a means of establishing stable government. This condition should not be viewed with alarm. Honest differences should be expected among free people. They do not constitute a danger in a mature democracy. In striving for stability, however, let us never forget that any government will become an appalling tyranny if it is not subjected to constant and unfettered scrutiny and criticism.
Our first duty, Mr. Chairman, is to recognize the problem how to manage the affairs of this nation with a minority government. This presents a challenge to all of us, government and opposition alike, to be inventive and imaginative and wise. It calls for a careful analysis of the whole concept of government and opposition. Ever since confederation we have thought mainly in terms of two major parties. The opposition has been viewed as the alternative government, ever with its eyes on the seats of power. Its constant ambition has been to "turn the rascals out", meaning, of course, the government of the day.
I submit that this part of our political heritage calls for a reappraisal at this time. In many of our political attitudes and relationships our minds are still floundering in the past. We must continually strive to lessen hostility and rivalry and to develop means of accommodation and compromise if we are to experience orderly change throughout the twentieth century and win new respect for the Canadian parliament. Jan Masaryk, the
Ways and Means
great Czechoslovakian statesman, once remarked: "Excitement is no program". That is why I submit that to view parliament as a battleground rather than as a forum for rational and responsible discussion is outmoded; it is wasteful and unintelligent and uninspiring.
Last week, when the Prime Minister intimated to us that he had consulted with the leaders of the other parties in regard to the Cuban crisis, everyone in this parliament applauded. One wonders why the same procedure could not have been followed last summer in regard to the commonwealth talks in London. Furthermore, one wonders why the same statesmanlike procedure could not be followed today in meeting the unemployment crisis, because to the man out of work unemployment is a crisis.
I suggest that we need to develop a new mood and a new technique of public administration to fit our present multiple party system. If our Canadian scientists at the defence research bureau had been content to employ nineteenth century techniques, we would never have launched a satellite and we would never have heard of "Alouette". Yet we in this house too frequently-we have evidence of this tonight-continue to think in terms of political attitudes and practices followed by Sir John A. Macdonald and George Brown 100 years ago. This is the century of technical advance. It is also the century of political innovation. Great political changes are coming in Europe and Africa and Asia. By comparison, our problem of finding a pattern for co-operative action within the Canadian parliament should not be too difficult. In any event, the present situation will test the statesmanship and ingenuity of all parties in this house in the months ahead.
Mr. Chairman, unemployment is a continuing weakness in our Canadian economy. A cure must be found if we are to be fair and just to our own people and if we are to become a strong and constructive influence in world affairs. It is an old problem. At the first trades and labour congress convention held in Canada in 1883 a resolution called for a reduction in the work week to 54 hours. Now we hear of the 35-hour week. At the turn of the century, young men found the answer to this problem by going west. But now we must face what someone has called the western wall. There are no lands beyond. We must stop and think our way through our problem. We cannot escape. The unpleasant truth is that unemployment is characteristic of Canadian society. It is a chronic condition except in wartime. Since 1945 every political party has agreed that opportunity for work is a fundamental right of Canadian citizenship

Ways and Means
and that it is a major responsibility of government to assure a high level of employment across this country. Unfortunately, words have not been matched with deeds.
We must cease being casual or complacent about it. Perhaps we are guilty of indifference, not because we are insensitive but because we are hypnotized by our affluent society. Since men and women are not starving, we are inclined to accept unemployment as something beyond our control-like the weather or the common cold. We forget, too, that when we read that there are 250,000 unemployed, we are being told that approximately one million men, women and children are living in homes where breadwinners are out of work. We hear that the number of registered unemployed has dropped a few thousand and we all feel better. I think it was the late Franklin D. Roosevelt who once remarked that it was small consolation for a man who had drowned in eight feet of water to be reminded that the average depth of the water around him was only five feet. Has Canadian statesmanship no answer to this problem? Here is a national emergency that calls for the mobilization of all our resources of leadership, not next year but today. If we wish to establish confidence in our economy we can do it only by demonstrating our ability to manage our affairs in the interest of all our people. We must combine administrative and technical efficiency with social purpose.
We are told that the government proposes to introduce a bill to provide for a national economic development board. We shall await the necessary legislation with keen interest. At present various departments are involved in dealing with different aspects of the problem of unemployment; I refer in particular to the Departments of Finance, Public Works, Labour and Trade and Commerce. It is to be hoped that the new board will be more than a consultative agency but will have broader objectives and wider powers than those exercised at present by the national productivity council. If it is to succeed it must be provided with ample staff and be given authority to take necessary steps to assure a high level of employment at all times across this country.
Industry has always planned within narrow limits. Business leaders are now talking hopefully about expanding their proven techniques into wider areas of administration.
The following comments from the Financial Post as reprinted in the Vancouver Province of August 25, 1962, are significant:
Europeans for a long time have recognized the wisdom and benefits of economic planning. Robert Fowler, president of the Canadian Pulp and Paper Association, says that Canadians also must accept

the fact that national planning to create growth and jobs is respectable and desirable.
This, as Fowler points out, will require a profoundly new approach to our economic system, to our laws and ip our attitudes. Certainly, in a business system such as ours, there is a high premium on the flexibility and foresight of individual businessmen. But because of the great changes now taking place, the most important decisions are beyond the reach of private business and in the realm of government responsibility and decision.
Last November W. S. Kirkpatrick, president of Consolidated Mining and Smelting, said this:
If one had to sum up the reason for Canada's critical economic position today, I think it could be said to be due to insufficient foresight in planning to meet the changing conditions at home and abroad.
Unless appropriate action is taken it may be questioned whether Canada's political and economic freedoms will survive the sixties.
According to the Financial Post, Mr. Kirkpatrick then suggested the formation of a new federal ministry to help set national economic goals to co-ordinate planning in this country. Labour, too, is ready for a major advance in research and co-operative action. They recognize their responsibility to share in joint consultation not only on wages and working conditions but also on problems of production, prices, and profits.
If trade unions are to perform their proper function in our democratic society they must be given opportunity to play a more positive role in the management of our Canadian economy. But government must provide leadership and direction not only in securing customers but in the more difficult and complex task of influencing investment and regulating production. Co-operation among government, labour, and management has been the key to the strengthening of the European economy since world war II. We, too, need to undertake an agonizing reappraisal of current methods in order to integrate more effectively the private and public sectors of our economy and to find a formula for stimulating industrial activity across the nation.
If the cure for unemployment threatens some of our freedoms, so does its continued presence in society. In very truth, the maintenance of full employment in a strong economy is the most effective defensive measure we could possibly contemplate in terms of human survival.
A few weeks ago we were informed by the Glassco commission that the federal government was the biggest employer in the country and, that 116 departments and agencies have a total working force of 480,000 people or approximately 7 per cent of the Canadian labour force with a total payroll of $1.8 billion. Let us now add the many thousands

employed by the ten provinces and by the countless cities and towns and local authorities from coast to coast. I am told by good authority that the figure would be in the neighbourhood of 30 per cent of the total number of men and women employed in Canada. In other words, about one in three collects his pay from a public agency. It is clear that any curtailment of this purchasing power will have a detrimental effect upon business everywhere. It follows that if the economy is to be strong, governments at all levels must behave like model employers. Only in this way can we hope to maintain a high morale and to retain competent people in the public service.
During the past summer a number of large private industries signed with their employees two year or three year agreements providing for substantial wage increases. In the interest of fair play it is to be hoped that the recommendations for improvements in the salaries of federal civil servants will soon be acted upon by this government. Certainly there should be no room in Canada for second class citizens, at least not working under this very roof.
The times demand greater attention to education for all Canadians. Practical incentives need to be provided for our young people to remain in school longer and to attend institutions of higher learning. More facilities should be available for men and women to continue their education at any age.
Employers, both in government and industry, are demanding better qualified workers. Being a pioneer people, we have assumed in the past that men could be trained on the job in a few days or weeks for any kind of employment. Failing that, an ample supply of skilled labour could be obtained in Europe just at the right time. That day has gone. In order to develop our manufacturing to the point where Canada can compete successfully throughout the world we must give serious attention to the necessity of training our own personnel.
The government is to be commended for its initiative in expanding the work of the vocational schools across the country. We welcome too the assurance of the Prime Minister that there will soon be introduced into the House of Commons legislation to provide for a major attack on the problem of automation through research and a retraining program for industrial workers. At the university level, however, Canada is not training enough students to meet the needs of industry or of the professions. The number enrolled 27507-3-68
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in graduate schools is dangerously low. Canadian universities award more honorary degrees to politicians than Ph.D.'s to deserving scholars. That is a sad commentary indeed on our sense of values.
In the United States and in Russia 20 per cent of the young people of college age are enrolled in some institution of higher learning. In Canada the figure is estimated to be not more than 10 per cent. In other words, only one student in 10 proceeds beyond grade 12.
Dr. Ross, president of York University, says that Canada stands a poor eleventh among the nations of the world in the number of university students according to population. That position is not good enough. We must do more to ensure that no bright young Canadian who can benefit from higher education is deprived of the opportunity through lack of money.
Our economy consumes men and machines in its productive processes. We recognize the justice of allowing tax deductions for depreciation of machinery but no similar provision is made for the replacement of men and their skills. We should at least allow income tax deductions for money spent directly by a family or an individual on education of any kind.
Our kind of democratic society calls for a maximum development of every individual as a worker and as a man. This is the task of education today. More substantial federal assistance is essential at this critical period in history without in any way lessening the authority of the provinces in the broad field of educational administration.
Already the federal government is involved in a broad program of education and culture that reaches into a dozen different departments. Some form of liaison is needed both for efficiency and for convenience. The sensible solution seems to be a central office of education to be administered jointly by federal and provincial governments. Such a development could stimulate a young and vigorous Canada to take its rightful place in the battle for men's minds that is being waged across the world at the present time.
In recent years, through channels provided by the C.B.C. and the Canada Council, young people in the field of the arts have received opportunities for training and travel previously denied them. As a result, an increasing number of Canadian artists are serving as goodwill ambassadors abroad. In a modest way, it is true to say that Canada has become an exporter of culture as well as of wheat and newsprint.

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For these reasons, I suggest that the government should consider establishing, in co-operation with the provinces, a federal office of education to perform the following services:
1.	To direct more efficiently the educational activities of approximately 75,000 students at present attending federally operated schools, at a cost of $50 million annually.
2.	To administer a program of research and retraining of workers required to meet the demands of automation.
3.	To encourage and publicize the comprehensive programs of adult education at present offered by Canadian universities.
4.	To act as a clearing house for the matching grants now paid to the provinces for such services as student loans and scholarships, special courses for new Canadians, handicapped children, apprentices, unemployed, etc.
5.	To provide a medium for the distribution among provinces of information resulting from research studies and experiments conducted at the local level by school or university authorities.
6.	To promote greater understanding among educators through the exchange of teachers from one province to another.
7.	To co-ordinate the educational work of the Canada council, national research council, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation and UNESCO.
Few will deny that maximum use of our resources can produce a finer generation of citizens than we have ever known-healthier, better educated, more appreciative of the arts, and more aware of one another. Recently the Canadian novelist, Professor Hugh McLennan of McGill University, wrote as follows:
The Canadian of today has climbed and been pushed to the highest material plateau any Canadian of any year has ever reached. But above him tower the really interesting ranges, and only if he reaches them will it matter to mankind whether or not he ever existed.
Who cares today how much corn the Athenians ate in the sixth decade of the fourth century B.C. or how much money they made out of their mercantile marine?
But for more than 2,000 years men have greatly cared that it was in the sixth decade of that century that the building of the Parthenon was begun and that Sophocles wrote Antigone.
Without the corn crop, without the silver, without the Mediterranean trade, Athens would not have been able to build the Parthenon or maintain at public expense the theatres for those plays that made her immortal.
But the reason she is immortal, the reason she is priceless to mankind, is that the Athenian citizen did not consider the production, distribution and consumption of material goods an end in itself, but only a necessary means to the far greater end of making his city one in which mature and civilized personalities could live joyful and exciting lives.

I submit that in this country we need a greater ambition than to create a favourable economic and political environment in order to attract investment and industry, in other words, to become bigger and bigger and richer and richer. Will Canadians in the future be content to brag about their highways and bridges, their factories and skyscrapers? Or will they be inspired to reach out for other goals, for new values and new standards of excellence in human achievement? Let us not forget that it is still true that we grow like what we worship.
Among thoughtful people throughout the western world today, there is a strong conviction that material prosperity by itself is an insecure foundation on which to build a civilization. I am convinced that to survive western democracy must grow not only in administrative efficiency and technical skill but also in social justice and moral strength.
We need at times to climb to higher ground, as Hugh McLennan has advised, and consider how we can so manage the affairs of this nation that ever increasing numbers of people will come to know the meaning of creative and joyous living.


Mr. Gray:: Mr. Chairman, since this is the first opportunity I have had to do so, let me join in the many other congratulations that you have received on your appointment. Your fairness and desire to live up to the high requirements demanded by your office have already impressed not only newer members such as myself but also every other member of the house.
The speech by the Associate Minister of National Defence has helped to prove more than anything else we have yet seen in the house the deceit, the half truths and the outright fraud of which this present government is guilty.


William Heward Grafftey: Do not forget this is your maiden speech.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Leave him alone.


Herbert Eser (Herb) Gray: I will say to the hon. member for Brome-Missisquoi that he is a wonderful example of something different from the usual trend of people becoming smarter as they get older. He seems to be depreciating in his intelligence.


William Heward Grafftey: This is your maiden speech.


Herbert Eser (Herb) Gray: We have had an example tonight, Mr. Chairman, of the colossal nerve which the government displays; but they will not get away with it on this occasion. The Associate Minister of National Defence took the latest issue of Time magazine and quoted certain passages from an article about the Canadian economy, but he left out certain

more important quotations. For example, on the very same page from which the Associate Minister of National Defence quoted we read these words:
"We're prosperous, but slowly going bankrupt," a Toronto economist wryly reflected. "This is a special Canadian trick."
I quote again from this article:
What Diefenbaker did not go out of his way to mention was that some key indicators are unhappily slowing up. The index of industrial production rose steeply to 186.6 in May, from 169.2 a year earlier, but slowed to a crawl by midsummer. Unemployment, while lower than it has been, was still, at 3.9 per cent of the labour force, not low enough. A 4 per cent rise in public spending during the first six months, mostly on a crash program to build vocational schools, was flattened by Ottawa's $228 million austerity cut-back-"and that," said a Montreal economist, "is $228 million worth of jobs."
That is what they did not say, Mr. Chairman, and I hope that in the next campaign, which I think will be soon, the Associate Minister of National Defence will come into the Essex ridings and make this very same type of speech before the unemployed automobile workers of Windsor. He will do myself and my other Liberal colleagues of the county of Essex a great favour and he will give us a lot of help in getting re-elected.
This has been bad enough, Mr. Chairman, these half truths, this failure to quote these passages from the very page from which the minister quoted in his speech, but we have seen something worse; and this is all the worse because so far hon. gentlemen opposite have not even seemed to notice this particular omission. I would have thought, Mr. Chairman, that the very first thing the associate minister of defence would have done in beginning his speech would have been to dissociate himself completely from the vile words quoted by the hon. member for Laurier.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Herbert Eser (Herb) Gray: You may be laughing at this, but that is just proof of what I am saying. Because of his failure to dissociate himself from these words, he has given proof to the millions of immigrants in this country, to the people of the same religious background as those referred to in this vile article, that everything these hon. gentlemen opposite have said about their bill of rights is a despicable sham and an attempt to get votes.


Mr. McDonald (Hamilton South):: That is a filthy lie.


Herbert Eser (Herb) Gray: Let me tell you something, and I refer to the hon. member opposite-


Robert Matthew Turnbull McDonald: Hamilton South.
27507-3-68J
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Herbert Eser (Herb) Gray: -the hon. member for Hamilton South, that I happen to share the racial background and religious beliefs of the people to whom reference is made.


William Heward Grafftey: Get on with your speech.


Herbert Eser (Herb) Gray: That is all you can say. I hope this will be repeated and recorded so that the people whose parents have come from the other side of the ocean, as mine did, will know, even better than they did before, exactly where hon. members opposite actually stand when it comes to the question of civil rights. We are being shown this more clearly than we were ever shown it before.


Mr. O'Hurley:: Keep religion out of politics.


Herbert Eser (Herb) Gray: You should refer to the minister who has just spoken because he brought it in in the worst possible way by failing to dissociate himself from those vile words quoted by the hon. member for Laurier.
While Cuba may be a crisis point in world affairs, Mr. Chairman, there are also crises points here in Canadian affairs, crises points which the present Conservative government has shown a reluctance and an inability to deal with in any meaningful way.


An hon. Member:: One of the new Liberal statesmen.


Herbert Eser (Herb) Gray: If I am a new Liberal statesman I hope God will give me the strength to do a better job than hon. gentlemen opposite have done.


An hon. Member:: You will certainly need His help.


Herbert Eser (Herb) Gray: One of the problems with which we are faced is chronic unemployment, and all the boasting of the Minister of Finance and the Prime Minister about more people working and more jobs cannot obscure the fact that there is a condition of continuing unemployment declining in many areas across Canada. In the Windsor area, for example, there has been a decline since 1957 of some 9,000 industrial jobs, jobs not replaced in any way by any serious measures of the present government which, all along, has pretended, and unfortunately continues to pretend, that this problem of chronic unemployment in certain of the areas of our nation does not really exist.
The people of the Windsor area listened to the speeches of the Prime Minister, and those of hon. gentlemen opposite, during the past campaign in which he claimed to put everything, including his party's record of achievement, fully and frankly before them. Having listened, sir, they made up their minds and passed judgment on the Prime Minister and

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his party by decisively rejecting his candidates at the polls. I would suggest that they did so, at least in part, because they saw that this government had no real program for dealing with continuing unemployment. They lacked, and still lack, a program to deal with the threat to jobs created by changing technology, automation and by the movement of industry.
We Liberals have a program in this regard and we have continued to develop it. The hon. member for Davenport and others have put some of its details and approaches before you. Mind you, from this program the government has attempted to take a few bright threads to dress up the shabby cloth of its throne speech. The Prime Minister, the Minister of Finance and others have appeared to suggest that the throne speech held out hopes of a rich and nourishing banquet of legislation. Instead, we have had only the stale porridge of last April's budget resolutions barely warmed over by the personal charm of the Minister of Finance.
The throne speech referred to an Atlantic development board. Surely, by now it must be obvious even to hon. gentlemen seated opposite that what we need and must have is not just a board to deal with one region, with other problem areas remaining almost completely ignored. Instead, we must have a new agency for area redevelopment, concerning itself with and administering a vital program not only to bring progress to the Windsor area but to all these other areas in the country. These projects must be applicable to the country as a whole; they must be meaningful and comprehensive, not just bits and pieces that have no meaningful purpose other than to dress up the Conservative campaign literature.
I believe the Prime Minister spoke of public works being carried out to aid certain areas in alleviating unemployment. Can he or the Minister of Public Works tell the committee when his government will permit at last a harbour development in the Windsor area? Can there be any real explanation given other than the present government's incompetence, its lack of concern for the constituency of Essex West.


Thomas Miller Bell: I want to ask the hon. member what he is reading from. He has been reading from this piece of paper for the last ten minutes.


Hédard-J. Robichaud: Shame on you; it is his maiden speech.


Herbert Eser (Herb) Gray: With reference to the hon. gentleman's interjection, I may say I am referring very briefly from time to time to

certain notes. Perhaps if he had the opportunity of reading these notes he would make a much more serious and constructive statement in this house.


Thomas Miller Bell: He must be nearsighted.


Herbert Eser (Herb) Gray: Unfortunately, Mr. Chairman, I have to wear glasses. However, I am not so nearsighted that I cannot see the emptiness of the Conservative program.
To continue, Mr. Chairman, I ask why the present government has provided nothing for harbour development in Windsor, on the busiest waterway in the world, when it has been spending hundreds of thousands of dollars, and continues to spend that money, in spite of its austerity program, for such works in cities and towns with less population than Windsor and less shipping business than Windsor has right now. The great American city of Detroit, with its population of almost three million, is on the other side of the riverbed. Now, its lack of port facilities has, at times in the past, made it necessary for ships to line up three or four in a row in the Detroit river waiting for space to dock on the United States side. A harbour in the Windsor area with appropriate bonded warehouse facilities might create not only a much needed source of employment but also provide a way to earn United States dollars. Something must be done now before this opportunity has disappeared.
The failure to carry out measures of this type, Mr. Chairman, shows the basic mistakes of the present government in dealing with the financial crisis they have done so much to create. They have failed to create what I might call productive of public works which would help to create permanent jobs and industry once those works were completed. The present Conservative government has failed completely to deal with the problem of movement of industry, the movement of plants from certain communities especially dependant upon them and without other plants to take their place. This problem should be one of grave concern not only to the communities involved but also to all of Canada, since their decline threatens the progress of the entire country.
This problem, Mr. Chairman, has its economic aspects when industries concentrate so heavily in the few great metropolitan areas of Canada. This concentration puts a tremendous burden on them to provide expensive services both for these plants and for the expanding population. At the same time, once these industries have moved, these towns and cities are left with the problems and burdens of paying, with declining tax

revenues, for these services once required for these industries and the homes of their workers. Specific mention must be made, Mr. Chairman, of the continuing burden on these municipalities, together with the provincial and federal government and therefore on all Canadians, of maintaining those who are turned into the chronic unemployed from changes in technology, changes in the economy and especially these plant movements. This is a human problem, Mr. Chairman, as well as an economic one. There is a humanitarian aspect to all this, probably more significant in final analysis than the economic one.
It seems to me that there is a basic inhumanity in taking a man who may have devoted a lifetime to a company and throwing him on the scrap heap like an outmoded machine-a man who may well be too old by today's narrow standards and lacking the necessary technical skills to find another job in his own city, if one were available, or anywhere else for that matter. This man may have put his life savings into a home. He may have built up the network of friendships and associations which one naturally creates over a lifetime in a community. What is a man like this to do? He will probably have difficulty at his age and level of skill in finding another job. If he has a chance to move with the same company to its new location-and this does not happen often enough -who will buy his home at a fair price? If he wishes to go elsewhere and find work, who will help ease the burden of moving expenses and of maintaining himself and his family while he is finding that job? Who will help him learn another skill so that he may fit into our changing technology before his present job disappears?
I regret to say that I have reached the conclusion that the companies concerned have as yet not assumed their proper share of their responsibilities to the worker who has given years of his life in their service, or to the cities which have become dependant on those plants and have gone into debt to serve them. There is a great task to be performed here. Of course, to deal completely with this problem we must have the co-operation of the provincial and federal governments. But the federal government has wide powers of its own which it must put into use immediately to deal with these crucial problems of depressed areas and industrial location. There is much more that could or should be done to help workers to bear the expense of finding new jobs in another area. There is much that can and should be done not only to train those who are now unemployed, but to train others who are now working for these
Ways and Means
new jobs created by changing technology, before that technology destroys the jobs they now have. But most important of all there must be a comprehensive and dynamic program along the lines set forth by the Leader of the Opposition and the hon. member for Davenport to bring new industry and new jobs to the Atlantic provinces, to Windsor and to all areas in need of special development aid, as well as a program to help maintain existing industry in those areas. In short, we need a program using the full existing powers of the federal government to create an economic climate in which both new and existing industries can prosper and expand, creating new jobs in the areas where they are really necessary.


An hon. Member:: A one-way rail ticket was your answer.


Herbert Eser (Herb) Gray: I am not sure which corner of the wrong side of the house that comment came from, but I feel I should refer at this point to the views of the hon. member for Nanaimo-Cowichan-The Islands who, I believe, on October 23 last criticized most severely the sound proposals of the hon. member for Davenport to increase industrial activity through incentives, submitting those proposals to a bitter and scathing attack. First of all, I must compliment the hon. member and give him credit for his personal honesty and integrity-his courage in forthrightly announcing that he is a socialist, and an unreconstructed one at that. While I do not share his views on that score, I must acknowledge how different his attitude from that of some other members of his party who go to great lengths to remove what they must consider to be the taint of socialism from their policies, their statements and even the name of their party.
I want to refer hon. members briefly to some of the comments he made in the course of his bitter and scathing attack on the hon. member for Davenport. I am referring to Hansard for Tuesday, October 23. After saying he was an unreconstructed socialist, the hon. member went on to say he was-
-more convinced today than I was 30 years ago that the solutions to the problems of our nation cannot be found within the framework of private enterprise, of capitalism, of the business world.
As reported on page 852, after referring to the brutal despotisms of what is termed the communist world, he goes on to refer to the need for revolutionary change to sweep away-
-the more subtle despotisms of the democratic world, the world of private enterprise.
Again, as recorded on page 852, he says:
As we build the new institutions we must begin the demolition of the old.

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Mr. Chairman, I wondered when I heard this, which institutions he had in mind destroying. I certainly hope he was not thinking of the democratic institutions of which this wonderful house is the embodiment.
Then, as reported on the same page, the hon. member said:
We can have no part in attempts to plaster over the widening cracks in the capitalist structure.
This attack on every section of private enterprise must have sent shudders down the spines of those in the hon. member's party who have been trying in a conciliatory fashion to woo small business and imply there is space within its confines even for the small businessman. I am sure the old timers in this house must for a moment have thought they were back in the days of the Regina manifesto and not the scrubbed up program the N.D.P. is trying to peddle today.
Since this particular hon. member has been described by the Canadian Press as his party's financial critic, I decided to take another look at his party's so-called program to see what it could add to his ideas. Either the hon. member in his speech has signalled a major policy change on behalf of his party or he was off on an ideological frolic of his own from which, perhaps, Mr. Douglas will recall him when he takes his seat in this house. For example, I would refer to a pamphlet entitled "A Summary of the New Democratic Program". Under the heading "Industry", it says:
A program to locate industry-if necessary, a whole new industrial complex-in communities which today face the prospect of continued economic distress. Through genuine incentives to industries seeking new sites, by lending money at low interest rates for the initiation of industrial and manufacturing projects-
Then again, looking at the actual program, at page 10 under the heading "Area Redevelopment", I see the following:
Special attention will be given to a location of industry policy, similar to successful programs in Britain, Sweden and other countries. This policy will include tax concessions and other assistance to private industry, as well as public investment.
I may say that I gave a lot of publicity to this program during the election, and I think that is a good reason why I am in this house today. No wonder the people of Canada have been unable to take seriously either the program or the party of the hon. member for Nanaimo-Cowichan-The Islands, who, apparently, is its financial spokesman.
But to get back to the question of chronic unemployment. There is an urgent task which faces our federal government-a task bound up with encouraging subsidiaries of United States-owned firms to produce more of their products in Canada. The hon. member for

Davenport has made reference to our automobile industry and voiced an opinion, which I share, that we could produce more of our own cars than we do today. Apparently, the constant urging and prodding of we Liberals has now forced the Minister of Finance to begin to share this view. We listened with great interest to the hon. gentleman's statement today. I want to point out again that it has taken two long years for the government finally to decide to do something about beginning to implement the main recommendations of Dr. Bladen's report. The measures announced today are, at best, a start. They are only a superficial attempt to deal with the broad problem of finding means to make more of our cars in Canada.
It is perhaps somewhat early to comment in detail on the implications of this statement and on the likely results of the order in council. We shall have to see what approach is taken by the automobile companies and by the United States parent firms. Let us hope they will make use of the provisions to increase the manufacture of automobile parts in Canada. I certainly hope they will not decide to continue importing transmissions, paying the duty and passing on the cost to the Canadian consumer, though there may be some risk of this happening. We must continue to look at all possible ways of increasing the Canadian content in our automobiles. One challenging and thought provoking suggestion of how this might be done was made several weeks ago by Mr. .Gray-biel, the general manager of the Windsor Star, when he suggested, in effect, that we have a crown corporation if our own automobile companies do not want to do this.
This suggestion is certainly deserving of further study, and has already brought forth comments by certain segments of our automobile industry as to the impracticability and impossibility of manufacturing these transmissions here.
It is easy to see why the United States parent firms should resist attempts to have transmissions made here. After all, they probably derive some substantial economic benefit through selling transmissions to their Canadian subsidiaries, without the cost of setting up such plants in Canada. Let us remember that there are many countries which have much more stringent requirements as to local content than does Canada. I merely want to point out, without necessarily voicing any approval of any of these requirements, that many of these great United States companies not only have subsidiaries operating in these countries, but in many cases they have made substantial increases in their investments in the recent past and probably plan further investment in the future.

Many of these countries offer very little in comparison with Canada when it comes to the existing markets, but quite a number of these United States companies have a potential market, and in spite of these requirements these United States companies have not only set up plants but are increasing their investment. Canada, on the other hand, is one of the major automobile markets outside of the United States itself.
I would suggest, Mr. Chairman, that if we can take measures whereby we would insist upon the greater manufacture of automobile parts in Canada, it would be in the Canadian national interest and would create jobs for Canadians. Then with our encouragement our automobile companies will, I feel certain, be able to find, as they have done elsewhere, satisfactory means to comply not only with government measures, but will also be able to operate to their own benefit and, more important, to the increased benefit of Canadians.
Mr. Chairman, one of the most important reasons for helping the depressed areas of Canada is that in so doing we will permit them to make a real contribution once again to Canadian life. In the riding of Essex West we find representatives of every group that make up the Canadian mosaic.
(Translation):
Thus, I am very proud that in my riding of Essex West, the old tradition of French language and culture is still going strong. That is why I am proud to further that tradition in the house where the two major language groups of our country are represented.
In Windsor, in the riding of Essex West, English speaking and French speaking Canadians show a spirit of understanding and good will which sets an example for the rest of Canada.
(Text):
Mr. Chairman, Essex West and Windsor can serve as examples to Canada in many ways; in the friendliness of its people, in the way these people of many religious and origins live together in a spirit of tolerance and understanding. In many other ways up until now Windsor has been the setter of patterns, the pacemaker for the rest of Canada.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Hear, hear.


Herbert Eser (Herb) Gray: Here is a man who knows. It has been a pacemaker of secondary industry, a place where labour has contributed to the development of workers throughout Canada. But may I also predict that Windsor will set a new national pattern for new high levels of productivity and labour-management cooperation so that Windsor, with the assistance of the federal government will be able to
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show the rest of the country the way to remove this crisis of chronic unemployment from our national life so that we may take the steps that must be taken to put Canada back on the path of national greatness in a world of prosperity and freedom.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Chairman, would the hon. member for Essex West permit one question?


Rémi Paul: I am sorry, but the time of the hon. member for Essex West has expired.


Robert Matthew Turnbull McDonald: Mr. Chairman, we have heard this evening the maiden speech of the hon. member for Essex West. He seems to be following in the footsteps of the hon. member for Richelieu-Vercheres. He talks about fraud by political parties in this country. He apparently did not read the newspapers in 1956 when a supposed great gentleman trampled parliament to death, not only selling it to big industry, but to United States big industry, giving them extra options for the pipe line across the country.
The hon. member talked about the Associate Minister of National Defence not ridiculing hon. members in the corner, this man who walks around in sheer proof of his contempt of the system that he fought against during the war. The hon. member talks about the Liberal party which wants to weld Canada together. He talks about the Mackenzie King theory of divide and conquer. He should think about conscription for a moment.


Herbert Eser (Herb) Gray: I did not say anything about that.


Robert Matthew Turnbull McDonald: The hon.
members says he never talked about this. He implied it, which is the usual Liberal party way of doing things. They are so flexible that they walk the tightrope and fall off whichever way is convenient. Now it is socialism. They talk about crown corporations and automobile parts. They talk about Windsor, and say nothing has happened there. We had a member of the cabinet in the Liberal government in 1935 up to 1957. What happened then?


Herbert Eser (Herb) Gray: The Liberal government set up the harbour commission. You did not give them any money.


Robert Matthew Turnbull McDonald: The proof is in the pudding. I have listened to the hon. member from Essex West. He gets up and talks of the automobile industry in Windsor, the border city. I feel that if there is some criticism to make about the development of Windsor harbour, he had better talk to the

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gentleman who is sitting next to him at the present time. Mr. Chairman, may I call it ten o'clock.


Paul Joseph James Martin: You are going to force me to make a speech.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. gentleman a question? In view of the remarks of the hon. member for Essex West, does the hon. member know that the Ottawa Journal, in an editorial today commenting upon this debate, said that the hon. member for Nanaimo-Cowichan-The Islands made one of the few worth-while contributions to this debate?


Paul Joseph James Martin: He did not hear the hon. member for Essex West.


Some hon. Members:: Ten o'clock.
Progress reported.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, may I inquire what we will be doing tomorrow, and perhaps we could get some indication of the business for the rest of the week.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Speaker, a continuation of the committee of ways and means is all I can foresee at the moment. It depends upon the members of the opposition.


Lionel Chevrier: If we should conclude, will we go on with the items mentioned on Friday?


Gordon Minto Churchill: That is a hypothetical question. I do not know whether we will conclude tomorrow.


Mr. Benidickson:: The government is confused.


[Stage Direction]
At ten o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[Stage Direction]
Tuesday, Oclober 30, 1962