1962-12-19

Mr. Harry C. Harley (Halton) moved: for leave to introduce Bill No. C-100, to amend the Broadcasting Act (political programs).


Some hon. Members:: Explain.


Harry Cruickshank Harley: Mr. Speaker, at present the Broadcasting Act prohibits political broadcasts anywhere in Canada on election day and the two days preceding election day whether the election is federal, provincial or municipal. This bill is to amend the act so that it will apply only to those radio stations or broadcasting stations where the broadcasting range reaches the actual election area.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. Prittie: Has the government in its possession a report from CBA Engineering Limited of Vancouver concerning the feasibility of a tunnel connecting the city of Vancouver and Sea island and, if so, has this report received further consideration since the Vancouver international airport came under federal ownership?


Mr. McCleave:: A report from CBA Engineering Limited on a tunnel from Vancouver to Sea island was received by the Department of Public Works. This report was not prepared at the request or cost of the federal government. No further consideration has been given to it, since at the time of the agreed payment of $400,000 by the federal government to the province in 1958 for a portion of the capital cost of this access tunnel, it was understood that the structure would be a provincial responsibility and that federal responsibility for access to Sea island was discharged.
(Translation):


C.N.R.-SERVICE BETWEEN EDMUNDSTON, N.B. AND LEVIS, QUE.
Mr. Dube: Has the Canadian National Railways Company reconsidered its decision to suspend during the
summer months, and to continue every second and third day during the winter season, the service between Edmundston and Levis (trains No. 67, 70 and 68, 69) with a view to providing a regular daily year-round service for the large population of the entire region?


Mr. McBain:: The management of the Canadian National Railways has sent me the following information:
There was a day coach service three times a week during the winter and the autumn of 1961. In December 1961, a complete train service was re-established. From Montreal this train had a sleeping car connecting with the ocean limited at Levis. Passengers using this service were few and most of them got on at Edmundston. There were also few passengers picked up from intermediate points in the areas of Charny and of Monk. As there had been so few passengers last winter and in the light of a careful analysis of the market possibilities for this winter, a semi-weekly service has been established between Edmundston and Levis with connection for passengers going to Montreal. Traffic on this service will be carefully considered and any future service or changes will be made according to the traffic potential of those trains.
(Text):


ALTERNATIVE ACCESS TO SEA ISLAND AIRPORT, VANCOUVER
Mr. Laing: 1.	Is the Minister of Public Works aware of the congestion and occasional failure of the swing-bridge over Moray channel, being the sole approach to Vancouver international airport?
2.	Is consideration being given to or have any studies been made of, an alternative access to Sea island from Vancouver city?
3.	Have any submissions of plans been made to the government for a tunnel approach from the south end of Granville street thence direct to the site of the new terminal building and, if so, has the government plans to proceed with this undertaking?


Robert Jardine McCleave: 1. Yes; and that the bridge is under the jurisdiction of the province of British Columbia.
2.	Not by the Department of Public Works.
3.	Yes. An engineering firm made such a study on its own initiative, and submitted a copy to the Department of Public Works. No consideration has been given to the report here, since at the time of the agreed payment

Questions
of $400,000 by the federal government to the province in 1958 for a portion of the capital cost of this access bridge, it was understood that the structure would be a provincial responsibility and that federal responsibility for access to Sea island was discharged.


FREIGHT RATES, PINE POINT RAILWAY
Mrs. Hardie: Do the provisions under which the Pine Point railway is to operate ensure that upon its completion carlot shipments from eastern Canada will have applied to them the one and one third transcontinental rate structure that applies to destinations in Alberta and, if so, what will he (using present tariff) the rate per 100 lbs. on (a) minimum carlots canned vegetables, Toronto-Hay river (b) carlot furniture, Toronto-Hay river?


James Alexander McBain: The management of Canadian National Railways advise as follows:
The Great Slave lake railway is under construction and the projected estimated completion date is the fall of 1966 at which time, when it is in full operation, it will be subject to the then existing statutes and regulations of the Board of Transport Commissioners for Canada covering the operation of such railways. As a matter of information, section 337 of the Railway Act defines "eastern territory" as any point on a line of railway east of Port Arthur, Ontario or Armstrong, Ontario; "western territory" as any point on a line of railway in British Columbia to which competitive transcontinental tolls apply, and "intermediate territory" as any point between eastern and western territory on any line of railway.
The provisions of this section of the act stipulate that rates to intermediate territory shall not exceed by more than one third the competitive toll in effect to eastern or western territory.
Generally speaking, as destinations on the Pine Point railway qualify under the term "intermediate territory" the effective rates, if that railway were today in operation, would be those within the scope of one and one third of any applicable transcontinental competitive rate.
(Translation):


BAGOTVILLE, QUE.  CONSTRUCTION OF AIRPORT TERMINAL
Mr. Cole: 1.	Are plans under way for the construction of a civilian terminal building at the military airport at Bagotville and, if so, when will construction be undertaken?
2.	What is the estimated total cost of the construction program and has any amount yet been appropriated?


Mr. Balcer:: The immediate construction of a civilian terminal building at the Bagotville airport is not being considered, although that

project is included in the long-term program of my department. The construction date of that project will be determined by the needs of the air lines, the increase in traffic and the availability of the necessary funds.
It would be too early to try to establish the approximate cost of those works as long as no decision is taken concerning their execution.


Mr. Speaker:: The Secretary of State asks that questions 1,145 to 1,149 inclusive stand.
(Text):


C.N.R. ATLANTIC REGION    EMPLOYEES IN PERSONNEL WORK
[Stage Direction]
Question No. 1,060
Mr. Crossman:: 1.	What are the names of the C.N.R. employees stationed in the Atlantic region who are engaged in personnel work as distinct from the labour relations field?
2.	What is, for each of the above persons, (a) length of service with the company (b) educational background (c) ability to speak both official languages of the country?


James Alexander McBain: The management of Canadian National Railways advise as follows:
The same answer applies as that given to question No. 935, wherein it was stated that the policy of the management concerning the questions raised was expressed on many occasions, especially in answer to question No. 344 of the session of the 24th parliament, where it was said that it is not the policy of the management to supply information from the personal files of officers and employees, a position which met with the approval of the sessional committee on railways, air lines and shipping, and that appointments are made after careful consideration of the qualifications and experience of the persons concerned.


PASSENGERS CARRIED BY FERRY
[Stage Direction]
"william carson"
Mr. Tucker: 1.	What was the total number of passengers carried on the C.N.R. coastal ferry William Carson to and from Port aux Basques, Newfoundland, between January 1 and December 31, inclusive, during the years 1959, 1960, and 1961?
2.	(a) Was the William Carson able to carry all passengers who sought transportation from January 1 to November 30, inclusive, 1962, to Port aux Basques (b) were extra ferries added to the service (c) what was the number of passengers carried during this period?


James Alexander McBain: The management of Canadian National Railways advise as follows:
1.	1959, 52,251 passengers; 1960, 62,366 passengers; 1961, 62,566 passengers.
2.	(a) No. (b) Yes. (c) William Carson, 66,930; others, 6,458; total, 73,388.

Questions


COUNCIL ON FITNESS AND AMATEUR SPORT
Mr. Roxburgh: 1.	(a) What is the total amount to date, including grants to provinces, spent by the government on the recommendation of the national advisory council on fitness and amateur sport (b) does the amount include any of the projects recommended by the advisory council at its November 16 meeting and, if so. what are the projects and the amount granted for each?
2.	Has the province of Quebec become an official member of the national advisory council on fitness and amateur sport and, if so, as of what date?


Mrs. Casselman:: 1. (a) $397,435 has been spent on the recommendation of the national advisory council on fitness and amateur sport. In addition, grants totalling $214,785 have been made to the provinces, (b) No.
2.	The provinces are not represented as such on the national advisory council on
fitness and amateur sport. Members serve as private individuals, though residents of each province are included on the council.
All provinces except Quebec have now signed a federal-provincial agreement under the Fitness and Amateur Sport Act.


LIMITED DIVIDEND, LOW RENTAL AND REDEVELOPMENT LOANS
Mr. Scott: Under the provisions of the National Housing Act, in each of the years ended December 31, 1958, 1959, 1960, and 1961, in each province, how many (a) limited dividend loans were made, and what was the total value of such loans (b) low rental loans were made and what was the total value (c) loans were made for the acquisition of existing rental projects, and what was the total value (d) loans were made for slum clearance and/or urban redevelopment, and what was the total value of said loans?


Robert Jardine McCleave: (a)


NET LIMITED DIVIDEND LOANS APPROVED 1958-1961 (LOW RENTAL HOUSING PROJECTS)
[Stage Direction]
1958	1959	1960	1961Area	No. of Loans	Amount $000	No. of Loans	Amount $000	No. of Loans	Amount $000	No. of Loans	Amount $000Newfoundland	Prince Edward Island	
-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-Nova Scotia	
-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-New Brunswick	
-	-	i	80	i	42	-	-Quebec	.... 16	18,450	9	6,683	3	1,811	-	-Ontario	.... 23	21,831	23	21,730	14	7,961	26	18,707Manitoba	.... 7	4,113	2	1,412	4	282	5	551Saskatchewan	.... 1	596	4	856	3	629	3	307Alberta	.... 3	3,533	3	4,491	-	-	5	4,671B.C	.... 11	711	4	218	5	308	14	1,247Yukon	-	-	-	-	-	-	Northwest Territories	-	-	-	-	-	-	-Total	.... 61	49,234	46	35,470	30	11,033	53	25,483
Questions
(b)	Low rental projects under section 36 of the National Housing Act are not financed by way of loan but by caj ital investment by the federal-provincial-municipal partnership. The federal government bears 75 per cent of the capital cost. In the years 1958, 1959, 1960 and 1961 the following are the number and costs of projects approved:
1959
1961
Estimated	Estimated	Estimated	Estimatedor Actual	or Actual	or Actual	or Actual
No. of Cost* No. of Cost* No. of Cost* No. of Cost* Province Projects $000 Projects $000 Projects $000 Projects $000
N.B	
-	-	-	-	1	1,101	-	-N.S	
-	-	-	-	1	2,466	-	-Ont	
8	8,352	6	6,197	-	-	4	10,445Sask	
-	-	1	1,108	-	-	-	-B.C	
-	-	-	-	2	4,105	1	776Total	
8	8,352	7	7,305	4	7,672	5	11,221
'Estimates used where final costs not yet determined.
(c)	Section 36 (1) (c) of the National Housing Act provides for the acquisition, improvement and conversion for housing purposes of existing buildings situated in an area designated as an urban renewal area. No projects have been acquired and developed under this section.
Under section 16 of the National Housing Act, the corporation may make a loan to a limited dividend housing company for the purchase of existing buildings and the land upon which they are situated and their conversion into a low rental housing project. There have been no such loans for the years in question.
(d)	Urban renewal projects under section 23 of the National Housing Act are not financed by way of loan. The federal government may contribute up to one half the costs of acquiring and clearing such projects. In the years 1958, 1959, 1960, and 1961, the federal government approved the following contributions:
1958	1959	1960	1961No. of	No. of	No. of	No. ofProvince	Projects $000 Projects $000 Projects $000 Projects $000N.S	
-	-	1	90	-	-	-	-N.B	
-	-	-	-	1	1,613	-	-Ont	
-	-	2	6,242	1	1,585	-	-Man	
-	-	-	-	-	-	1	3,690B.C	
-	-	-	-	1	2,401	-	-
Total
3	6,332	3	5,599	1	3,690

Mr. Scotl: Under the provisions of the National Housing Act, in each of the years ended December 31, 1945, 1946, 1947, and 1948, in each province, (a) how many single family dwelling loans were made (b) what
was the total amount of the said loans (c) how many approved purchases of houses built under the said act received, per year, (i) under $2,000 (ii) between $2,000-$2,999 (iii) between $3,000-$3,999 (iv) between $4,000-$4,999 (v) between $5,000-$5,999 (vi) between $6,000-$6,999 (vii) between $7,000-$7,999 (viil) between $8,000-$8,999 (ix) between $9,000-$9,999 (x) over $10,000?


Robert Jardine McCleave: Questions
(a)	and (b)
TOTAL N.H.A. LOANS APPROVED FOR HOME-OWNERSHIP DWELLINGS, 1945-1948*
Area	1945	1946	1947	1948	Loans	Amount $000	Loans	Amount $000	Loans	Amount $000	Loans	Amount $000Newfoundland	Prince Edward Island	
-	-	5	26	5	25	35	196Nova Scotia	.... 60	270	114	541	263	1,351	316	1,664New Brunswick	.... 24	104	89	424	128	686	300	1,702Quebec	.... 465	2,212	739	3,643	1,558	9,604	2,820	20,176Ontario	.... 2,502	10,573	3,713	16,843	4,191	21,611	7,156	39,961Manitoba	.... 734	3,158	1,149	5,699	1,371	7,210	1,266	7,596Saskatchewan	.... 97	415	261	1,150	166	805	111	571Alberta	... . 479	2,099	669	3,060	983	5,048	2,019	10,787British Columbia	.... 684	2,759	1,299	5,506	1,255	5,484	2,273	10,659Yukon Territory	
-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-Northwest Territories	-	-	-	-	-	2	13Total	.... 5,045	21,590	8,038	36,892	9,920	51,824	16,298	93,325
* Data do not take account of cancellations.
(c)
NUMBER OF BORROWERS AND PURCHASERS UNDER THE NATIONAL HOUSING ACT, BY SELECTED INCOME GROUPS, 1946*
Number of Borrowers
Applicants' Income	and Purchasers

Under 2,000	 1,533
2.000	to 2,999	
2,1453.000	to 3,999	
6444.000	to 4,999	
1645.000	to 5,999	
736.000	to 6,999	
277.000 to 7,999	,	
88.000	to 8,999	
49.000	to 9,999	
110,000	and over	
9Total	
4,608
*Data available only for Canada, with no provincial breakdown.

Questions


NUMBER OF BORROWERS AND PURCHASERS UNDER THE NATIONAL HOUSING ACT, BY SELECTED INCOME GROUPS, 1948
[Stage Direction]
Number of Borrowers and Purchasers
Family Income*	P.E.I.	N.S.	N.B.	Que.	Ont.	Man.	Sask.	Alta.	B.C.	Canada$ Under 1,800	... 2	11	5	10	57	8	2	12	56	1631,800-2,099	... 6	34	17	58	415	99	8	94	255	9862,100-2,399	... 5	67	39	104	797	198	9	225	302	1,7462,400-2,699	... 7	77	31	214	1,350	315	20	355	407	2,7762,700-2,999	... 5	29	22	131	785	185	17	212	214	1,6003,000-3,499	... 3	50	28	247	1,135	229	21	321	325	2,3593,500-3,999	... 1	25	27	159	574	127	10	179	164	1,2664,000-4,999	... 2	19	21	168	482	109	15	16	1430	1,1195,000 and over	... 3	17	27	144	318	124	14	156	82	885Total	... 34	329	217	1,235	5,913	1,394	116	1,714	1,948	12,900
* Data available only on a family income basis and with different income intervals than those requested. Note: Data for the years 1945 and 1947 not available.

Mr. Maclnnis: 1.	Have any complaints or criticisms been received by the Canadian National Railways with regard to the rail liner services between Halifax and Sydney?
2.	Is the Canadian National Railways prepared to make available more comfortable accommodation for passengers willing to pay higher fares, than what is presently available?


James Alexander McBain: The management of Canadian National Railways advise as follows:
1.	Some representations have been received in the Atlantic region concerning the scheduling of these trains. The revised schedule will go into effect December 31, 1962.
2.	It is the objective of the company to compete vigorously for passenger business in those areas where facilities and size of the travel market provide a reasonable expectation that the company can realize a profit by so doing, and to withdraw from those services that in spite of reasonable efforts do not produce sufficient revenues to offset their operating costs and have no reasonable prospect of doing so.


C.N.R. TRAINS 603 AND 604, TRURO-SYDNEY, N.S.
Mr. Maclnnis: 1.	What arrival and departure time changes are involved in the revised operating schedule of the Canadian National Railways with regard to trains 603 and 604 between Truro and Sydney?
2.	Does the management of the C.N.R. anticipate that increased passenger traffic between Truro and Sydney will make up the loss in assured annual revenue of some $91,000, the sum paid by the Post Office Department to the railway for the use of postal cars on trains 603 and 604, under their revised operating schedule?
[Mr. McCleave.l
3.	Does the C.N.R. intend to continue the operation of trains 603 and 604?
4.	With respect to the changes in the schedule of trains 603 and 604 on December 29, 1962, has the Post Office Department indicated that it was prepared to continue to operate postal services on said trains?
5.	Is the management of the C.N.R. prepared to co-operate with the Post Office Department by making it possible to continue the railway postal service?


James Alexander McBain: The management of Canadian National Railways advise as follows:
1.	Effective December 31, 1962, the scheduling of the trains referred to is as follows:
Trains 607-604 will depart Halifax at 7.30 a.m. and leave Truro at 8.55 a.m. (1 hour 55 minutes later than at present), arriving Sydney at 2.30 p.m. (1 hour 15 minutes later than at present). Trains 603-608 will leave Sydney at 3 p.m. (1 hour 5 minutes later than at present), arriving Truro at 8.35 p.m. (35 minutes later than at present) and run through to Halifax arriving at 10 p.m. (20 minutes earlier than at present).
2.	It is expected that the improved schedule will result in a more favourable cost versus revenue ratio for this operation.
3.	The new schedules are designed in an endeavour to attract additional passenger traffic. A careful market analysis will be made over the next few months covering the actual operation.
4.	No.
5.	The Canadian National Railways has excellent relations with the Post Office Department and is prepared to co-operate at all times.

(Translation):


C.N.R.-QUALIFICATIONS AND RECORDS OF MESSRS. GORDON AND WILSON
Mr. Boulanger: 1.	In what year did the president of the Canadian National Railways, Mr. Donald Gordon, emigrate to Canada?
2.	What educational certificates did he have when he joined the C.N.R.?
3.	Did the present chief of personnel of the C.N.R., Mr. W. T. Wilson, act during the war years as Mr. Gordon's assistant at the wartime prices and trade board and, if so, what railway experience did Mr. Wilson have when he joined the C.N.R.?


James Alexander McBain: We are informed by the management that biographical notes concerning Messrs. Donald Gordon and W. T. Wilson are found in the reference books.
(Text):


DREDGING, FRASER RIVER, B.C.
Mr. Douglas: Has any dredging been done by an agency of the federal government during the first ten months of 1962 in that portion of the Fraser river from Port Mann to Hope and, if so (a) how much, and at what cost (b) whose dredge or dredges are at present engaged in this portion of the river (c) what capacity have these dredges, and (d) what are the financial arrangements?


Robert Jardine McCleave: Yes.
(a)	Approximately 81,000 cubic yards at a total cost of $36,220.00.
(b)	One owned by Scuffler Dredging Company, Chilliwack, and another owned by Fraser River Dredging Company, Chilliwack.
(c)	The Scuffler dredge is a Saureman scraper type and has a production capacity of 440 cubic yards per day. Excavated material is moved distances up to 1,000 feet. The Fraser River Dredging Company plant is a water dozer type limited to short haul operations of less than 500 feet. It has a production capacity of 840 cubic yards per day.
(d)	The dredges were employed on a plant rental basis after public tender call and the contracts were awarded to the lowest bidders. The contract rates are:
Scuffler plant	- $245 per day
Fraser River plant	- $276 per day
(Translation):


APPOINTMENT OF TRADE PUBLICITY DIRECTOR
Mr. Legare: 1.	Does the Department of Trade and Commerce propose to appoint a director of trade publicity who, among other duties, would be called upon to travel in Canada and abroad and, if so, would it be an asset if this officer were bilingual?
2.	Does the civil service commission intend to give priority to a bilingual candidate?


Mr. Nesbill:: 1. The position of trade publicity director in the Department of Trade
Questions
and Commerce was advertised recently by the civil service commission. Even though, according to the commission and under section 47 of the Civil Service Act, a knowledge of English and French is not deemed essential to enable the new incumbent to perform his duties properly and provide an adequate service to the public, nevertheless, the commission feels that a knowledge of both languages would prove most useful. Therefore, this consideration will be taken into account when the candidates to this position are examined.
2. Answered by 1.


T.C.A.-PUBLICITY PAMPHLETS IN BOTH LANGUAGES
Mr. Deschatelets: Are the various publicity pamphlets, placed at the disposal of the passengers on T.C.A. printed in both official languages?


James Alexander McBain: The management of T.C.A. informs me that publicity material on board its aircraft are either in several languages, including French, or in both French and English. The company's timetables are now fully bilingual and are distributed everywhere in Canada, the United States, the United Kingdom, Europe and the West Indies. The magazine "In Flight", its French language counterpart and a booklet of multilingual maps are at the disposal of passengers on T.C.A. aircraft.
At the end of 1962, T.C.A. will have published 43 folders in French, 2,885,000 copies of which have been distributed through the company's offices, travel agencies or directly through the mail.
(Text):


JUVENILE OFFENDERS IN FEDERAL PENITENTIARIES
[Stage Direction]
Question No. 1,151
Mr. Orlikow:: 1.	In connection with juvenile offenders who are in federal penitentiaries, who decides that they should be incarcerated there?
2.	In how many cases did the court have presentence recommendations from social workers, probation officers, psychiatrists, etc.?
3.	What facilities, if any, are there for segregation of these juveniles from the adult inmates?


Mr. Bell (Saint John-Albert):: 1. The judge or magistrate of the adult court in which the juvenile is tried.
2.	Information not available.
3.	No separate facilities exist as such. However, in the Montreal area many are transferred to the federal training centre, an institution for young offenders, and an attempt is made to segregate them from the older aged groups. In other federal penitentiaries, attempts are made to segregate

Questions
juveniles from the adult inmates, but the overcrowded conditions in the federal penitentiaries preclude the provision of completely segregated areas.


PAROLE OFFICERS, DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
Mr. Orlikow: 1.	How many parole officers are employed by the Department of Justice, and what is their jurisdiction?
2.	How many of these are trained social workers?
3.	How many are university graduates in the social sciences?
4.	Does the department make provisions for bursaries for the training of more parole officers and, if so, how many bursaries, and for how much?


Thomas Miller Bell: 1. 42. The
jurisdiction of those employed in the field offices is geographically limited to specified areas and the duties include the direct interviewing of applicants for parole; the direct or indirect supervision of persons on parole and the maintenance of liaison with crown authorities.
Generally speaking, the jurisdiction of parole officers employed at headquarters is geographically limited to a specified area and their duties include the assembly of data necessary to the study of parole cases; the preparation of summaries, based on the data assembled, for consideration by the national parole board and the performance of incidental duties.
2.	14.
3.	12.
4.	No.


PAYMENTS TO INFORMERS RESPECTING TAX EVASIONS
Mr. Benson: Has the government made payments during the
1960,	1961, and 1962 fiscal years to persons who inform on fellow citizens in the matter of tax evasion and, if so (a) are such payments considered as taxable income in the hands of the recipient
(b)	what was the total amount paid to such informers during the 1960, 1961, and 1962 fiscal years
(c)	what was the number of such informers in each taxation district in Canada during the 1960,
1961,	and 1962 fiscal years (d) what was the total amount of such payments in each taxation district during the 1960, 1961, and 1962 fiscal years, and (e) where are such payments reflected in the public accounts?


Mr. Flemming (Vicioria-Carleton):: (a) Yes.
(b)	$2,272.
(c)	Newfoundland taxation division, 1; Montreal taxation division, 1; Toronto taxation division, 1.

(d)	Newfoundland taxation district, $242; Montreal taxation district, $1,030; Toronto taxation district, $1,000.
(e)	Such payments are reported in the public accounts as expenditures for law costs.
^CHANGE IN METHOD OF CAPITAL PUNISHMENT


Mr. Roxburgh: Has the government any plans for a more humane method of capital punishment than by hanging?


Thomas Miller Bell: The answer to this question is that legislation would be required to effect a change in the method of capital punishment. None is proposed at present.


* CENTRAL PLACES OF EXECUTION
Mr. Ryan: Has the government any plans for a central place of execution in each province and for the territories?


Thomas Miller Bell: The answer to this question is that this matter falls under provincial jurisdiction. So far as the territories are concerned the answer is no.


BURNT CHURCH INDIAN RESERVE, N.B.   ROAD PROJECTS
Mr. McWilliam: Were road construction and road repair projects carried out on lands of the Burnt Church reserve of the Miramichi Indian agency, New Brunswick, within the last five years and, if so, were the costs of these projects defrayed from the Burnt Church Indian band fund in whole or in part, and what was the amount for each project?


Mr. McGee:: Yes, all of the amounts shown in the following table were expended from departmental appropriations. No expenditures from band funds were made for road work during the fiscal years shown.
New
Year	Kepairs Construction
1957- 58	Nil	Nil1958- 59	$ 994.93	Nil1959- 60	Nil	Nil1960- 61	$3,523.70	$9,080.041961- 62	$ 47.50	$6,919.27


INTEREST PAYMENTS ON BONDS HELD OVERSEAS
Mr. Gregoire: What are the sums of money which have been sent out from Canada since 1942, in payment of interest on foreign bonds on overseas markets by (a) the government of Canada (b) the provincial governments (c) municipal corporations, and (d) school boards?

Questions


Wallace Bickford (Wally) Nesbitt: Interest payments on Canadian bonds and debentures held abroad for selected years111
	1942	1946	1955	1959	1960	1961
			(millions	of dollars)		
(a) Government of Canada	26	30	17	20	23	25(b)	Provincial (c)	Municipal, including school	23	25	34	51	64	68boards (for which data are not available separately)	15	13	16	34	42	47
ll,Estimates are not available for other years.


INTEREST AND PROFITS TO FOREIGN COMPANIES
Mr. Gregoire: What are the sums, interest, and profits that
companies with foreign capital have realized in Canada since 1942, and what are the sums, interest, and profits which have gone out of Canada to foreign countries since 1942?


Wallace Bickford (Wally) Nesbitt: Earnings and transfers of Canadian companies with foreign capital for selected years11'
1942	1946	1955	1959	1960	1961
(millions of dollars)
Estimated total earnings on foreign direct investment in Canada (no estimates are available for portfolio investment)'31 Total dividends paid to non-residents on direct and portfolio investments, including profits of nonfinancial corporations net of withholding tax'4'
Interest paid by corporations on Canadian bonds and debentures held abroad, net of withholding
tax'* 1 2'	54	57	60	105	110	119(3>	279	672	768	700152	187	356	461	414	511
Sub-total
244
566
630
'"Estimates are not available for other years <2lNot available
<3'Estimates for other years since 1946 are found on page 23 of "The Canadian Balance of International Payments, 1960" (Cat. No. 67-201)
'""Estimates for other years since 1946 are found on page 77 of "The Canadian Balance of International Payments in the Post-War Years, 1946-1952", (Cat. No. 7503-508) and on page 22 of the publication cited in footnote '3I.


LOWER FRASER VALLEY, B.C., FLOOD CONTROL
Mr. Douglas: What consideration, if any, is being given to federal participation in a flood-control scheme for the lower Fraser valley in B.C.?


Mr. Dinsdale:: By agreement between the governments of Canada and of British Columbia the Fraser river board has studies under way which include consideration of flood control for the lower Fraser valley. No application for federal participation in such a flood control scheme has been received from British
Columbia, and accordingly no consideration is being given to this question at the present time.


INDIAN RESERVE NO. 70, MATHESON, ONT.   LUMBER PERMITS
Mr. Laprise: 1.	In 1960-61-62, were any lumber permits granted to lumber operators in Indian reserve No. 70 at Matheson and, if so, what are the names of the licencees?
2.	Were any applications for lumber permits refused in the years 1960-61-62 in the same reserve and, if so, by whom were these applications made?

Questions


Frank Charles McGee: 1. No. However, timber licence No. 452 which was issued to Lorenzo Baillar-geon on October 15, 1959 expired on April 30, 1960.
2. Yes-Murray McArthur, Lorenzo Baillar-geon, Alfred E. Wisman, La Sarre Telephone Inc.
Note: The applications and refusals listed in item 2 were refused principally because of the opposition of the chief and the Indians.


WINTER WORKS PROGRAM, TERRA NOVA NATIONAL PARK
Mr. Pickersgill: 1.	Has the government decided to undertake a winter works program in the Terra Nova national park and, if so, when is the program to begin?
2.	How many additional employees will be required?
3.	What additional sum of money will be spent, and what particular projects will be involved?
4.	Is any additional work on the Eastport road included in any such program?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: 1. Yes. The program will be under way this month.
2.	35 to 40 (est).
3.	Approximately $85,000 on the development of camp grounds and picnic sites, the clearing of fire trails and water supply line right of way, and other improvements to park facilities.
4.	No.



CANADIAN CENTENNIAL


Mr. Mather: 1.	How many provinces have indicated their readiness to co-operate with the federal government and the municipalities in taking advantage of federal grants for centennial projects?
2.	Does the government contemplate an announcement during 1962 as to arrangements for processing applications for such grants?


Mr. Diefenbaker:: 1. At the inaugural meeting of the national committee on the centennial of confederation, held in Ottawa on February 8, 1960, the representatives of each of the ten provinces gave assurance of the full co-operation of their respective governments in the preparations for the observance of the centennial. Seven provinces have either enacted legislation or established committees, or both, to facilitate centennial arrangements. To date, none of the provinces have forwarded firm applications for federal grants for particular local projects, but numerous local projects are known to be at various stages of study.
2. During October 1961 the Minister of Transport, as co-chairman of the national committee, announced the conditions and arrangements governing the making of federal grants for local centennial projects. Any
TMr. Laprise.]
changes that may be made in these arrangements from time to time will be announced.



* CRIMINAL LEGISLATION RESPECTING MENTAL CASES

Mr. Ryan: Is the government considering the introduction of any new legislation in respect to criminal or quasi-criminal procedures in mental or suspected mental cases by amendment to the Criminal Code or otherwise, either with or without collaboration with the provinces?


Thomas Miller Bell: Mr. Speaker, the answer to this question is that this subject is under continuing study.



REGIONAL INDUSTRIAL EXPANSION CONFERENCES

Mr. Gray: 1.	How many regional industrial expansion conferences were held under the sponsorship of the Department of Trade and Commerce between September 27 and December 14, 1962, and where were these conferences held?
2.	How many representatives of labour attended these conferences, and (a) what are the names of each of these individuals (b) what are the names of the organizations they represented or were associated with?
3.	When and where will other such industrial expansion conferences take place?


Wallace Bickford (Wally) Nesbitt: 1. Between September 27 and December 14, 1962, two regional industrial expansion conferences were held under the sponsorship of the Department of Trade and Commerce. These conferences were held in Montreal on November 8 and in Hamilton on December 12. They were jointly sponsored with provincial government departments. The regional conferences followed the national industrial expansion conference which was held in Ottawa on September 7.
2. The labour representatives who attended the regional conferences are:
Mr. Russell Bell, acting director of research, Canadian Labour Congress, 100 Ar-gyle avenue, Ottawa, Ontario.
Mr. J. Morris, C.L.C. executive vice president, Canadian Labour Congress, 100 Argyle avenue, Ottawa, Ontario.
Mr. Victor Trudeau, regional director of organization for Quebec, Canadian Labour Congress, 100 Argyle avenue, Ottawa, Ontario.
Mme. Huguette Plamondon, C.L.C. regional vice president, United Packinghouse, Food and Allied Workers, 4645 Iberville st., Montreal, P.Q.
Mr. L. Laberge, C.L.C. regional vice president, International Association of Machinists, 5697 Langelier st., Montreal, P.Q.
Mr. Marcel Pepin, Conf. des syndicats na-tionaux, Quebec city, P.Q.
Mr. Jean Marchand, president and general manager, Conf. des syndicats nationaux, Quebec city, P.Q.

3. The next regional industrial expansion conference will be held in Winnipeg on February 20, 1963. Tentative plans are also under way for a further conference in Vancouver.



UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE


Mr. Martin (Essex East): 1.	Has the Minister of Labour received complaints about the centralization of the processes of adjudication in contentious claims arising out of the Unemployment Insurance Act?
2.	Will the minister take steps to provide for authority to local officers particularly in unemployment insurance bureaux such as that in the city of Windsor?
3.	Has the minister received complaints that delays arise because of the present policy of centralizing decisions on contentious claims?


Mr. Hales:: 1. Yes. The unemployment insurance commission since the implementation of the new procedure in 1960, has received 1 complaint in 1960 and another recently.
2 and 3. No delays in the handling of claims for unemployment insurance benefit are attributable to the present centralized system of adjudication. Investigation of complaints received showed that the reason for them was not attributable to the new system. Consequently no change in procedure is being contemplated by the commission at this time.



POLICY RESPECTING WATER AND AIR POLLUTION

Mr. Haidasz: 1.	Has the government a national policy with regard to water and air pollution and, if so, what are the guide lines of such policy?
2.	What steps does the government take to implement its policy?


Arza Clair Casselman: 1. The primary responsibility for the control of air and water pollution rests with the provinces except in the case of international pollution problems and those arising from interprovincial railway systems and shipping within Canadian waters.
The federal government actively participates in studies of international and national significance through the provision of laboratory services, expert consultative service, technical assistance and financial aid under the national health grants program. The federal government also provides loans for municipal sewage treatment projects to abate water pollution as authorized under the National Housing Act.
2. The federal government implements its policy by the adoption of recommendations of the international joint commission. Regulations for the control of air pollution from railway locomotives are formulated by the Board of Transport Commissioners for Canada and regulations for the control of water pollution by oil, by the Department of Transport.
Questions



BALTIC STATES


Mr. Haidasz: Has the Prime Minister taken any further action with regard to the question of granting diplomatic recognition to the exiled consuls of the Baltic states now resident in Canada?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, in keeping with the remarks I made in Toronto on June 14, 1962, concerning the government's attitude regarding the status of the representatives of the Baltic countries in Canada, we have listed these officials as acting consular representatives in the October edition of the Department of External Affairs official publication "Canadian Representatives Abroad and Representatives of Other Countries in Canada".



INSTRUCTIONS TO U.N. DELEGATION

Mr. Haidasz: What stand has the Canadian delegation to the United Nations been instructed to take with regard to (a) the Rapacki plan for a nuclear free zone of central Europe and (b) the Oder-Neisse western boundary between Poland and East Germany?


Mr. Green:: (a) The Rapacki plan was
referred to by a number of delegations during the general assembly's consideration of the disarmament item, but the plan as such was not up for discussion.
(b) There is no question on the Polish-German boundaries before the United Nations.



BUTTER-EXCESS OF PRODUCTION OVER CONSUMPTION

Mr. Matheson: Assuming that the per capita volume of butter consumed is uniform across Canada, by what percentage has each province's production exceeded its consumption during each of the years 1959, 1960, and 1961?


Wallace Bickford (Wally) Nesbitt: Province	1959	1960	1961Prince Edward	%	%	%Island	+ 234	+ 212	+ 251Nova Scotia	- 64	- 69	- 66New Brunswick	- 23	- 24	- 20Quebec	+ 46	+ 48	+ 67Ontario	- 16	- 14	- 3Manitoba	+ 66	+ 68	+ 74Saskatchewan	+ 82	+ 88	+ 95Alberta	+ 58	+ 78	+ 95British Columbia	- 84	- 81	- 77



EXECUTIONS OF TURPIN AND LUCAS, TORONTO

Mr. Matheson: 1. Prior to the executions of Ronald Turpin and Arthur Lucas at Don jail, what percentage of

Questions
persons sentenced to hang had received commutations to life imprisonment since this government took power?
2.	How many days intervened between the time that Turpin was sentenced to death and finally informed that commutation had been refused, and how many hours then intervened until he was hanged?
3.	How many days intervened between the time that Lucas was sentenced to death and finally informed that commutation had been refused, and how many hours then intervened until he was hanged?


Thomas Miller Bell: 1. Prior to the executions of Ronald Turpin and Arthur Lucas, since this government took power, the death sentence has been commuted to life imprisonment in 49 of the 61 cases in which it was imposed or 80 per cent.
2.	Turpin was sentenced on June 13, 1962. A telegram was sent from the Department of Justice to the sheriff on December 10, 1962 advising the sheriff there would be no interference with the sentence and the sheriff at 10 a.m. o'clock on the same day acknowledged such telegram. It is not known when the sheriff so advised Turpin. The sheriff has indicated that the death sentence was carried out on December 11, 1962 but did not indicate the exact time.
3.	Lucas was sentenced on May 10, 1962. A telegram was sent from the Department of Justice to the sheriff on December 10, 1962 advising the sheriff there would be no interference with the sentence and the sheriff at 10 a.m. o'clock on the same day acknowledged such telegram. It is not known when the sheriff so advised Lucas. The sheriff has indicated that the death sentence was carried out on December 11, 1962 but did not indicate the exact time.



SUSTAINING WALL, ST. VALUER, BELLECHASSE CONSTITUENCY

Mr. Dumonl: Who was awarded the contract for the construction of the sustaining wall at St. Vallier, Belle-chasse constituency, in 1961, and at what cost?


Robert Jardine McCleave: Les Entreprises J. R. Denoncourt Enrg., de Nicolet (P.Q.); $8,547.



ARTIFICIAL CHRISTMAS TREES


Mr. Dumont: 1.	What quantity of artificial Christmas trees has been imported from Japan for each year since 1959?
2.	What is the present average retail price of these Christmas trees?
3.	Have any complaints been received concerning the effect of these importations on the sale of Christmas trees in the province of Quebec?


Wallace Bickford (Wally) Nesbitt: 1. Imports of artificial Christmas trees are classified by material in the following statistical classes:
[Mr. Matheson.l
6,015-Aluminum manufactures n.o.p.; 7,127 -Manufactures of glass n.o.p.; 8,450-Manufactures of plastics n.o.p.; 9,255-Alabaster, spar, amber, terra cotta, or composition ornaments.
There are no separate figures available on artificial Christmas trees.
2.	No information is available at the dominion bureau of statistics on the average retail price of artificial Christmas trees.
3.	No.



* PREFABRICATED HOUSES, ST. SYLVESTRE, LOTBINIERE CONSTITUENCY

Mr. Rondeau: 1.	What was the cost of the prefabricated houses which were built at St. Sylvestre, Lotbiniere constituency, for the radar employees?
2.	What was the total amount spent for these houses, the cost per unit, and the number of units?
3.	Were there any defects found in the waterworks and sewer systems and, if so, what was the cost of re-doing such work?
4.	What company was awarded the contract for these prefabricated housing units?
5.	What was the cost of transportation of these prefabricated housing units?
6.	What company was awarded the transportation contract?


Mr. O'Hurley:: 1. $240,469.56.
2.	(a) Paid to date, $228,446.09. (b) There were 25 homes and 2 storage units, unit cost including storage units-$9,618.78.
3.	(a) Yes. (b) Not yet established.
4.	Canadian Car division of Hawker Sid-deley Canada Limited, for the supply, transportation, and erection of 25 homes and 2 storage units.
5.	Transportation was part of the over-all contract and information as to cost of this item is not available.
6.	Transportation was part of the Hawker Siddeley Canada Limited contract.



BAY DE VERDE, NFLD.    USE OF TRAWLS BY FISHERMEN

Mr. Tucker: Has the government received a petition from the fishermen of the Bay de Verde area, Newfoundland, asking that the use of trawls be abolished on the fishing grounds in that area and, if so, what action has been taken?


Mr. MacLean (Queens):: Yes, by St. John's office. Petition is now in mail to Ottawa and when received representations it contains will be considered.



*ANNUAL GRANT TO UNITED NATIONS ASSOCIATION

Mr. Martin (Essex East): 1. What is the amount of the annual grant made by the Department of External Affairs to the United Nations Association in Canada?

2.	Has the total grant for the current fiscal year been paid?
3.	If not, how much of it has been paid, and when will the balance be paid?


Howard Charles Green: 1. $12,000.
2.	No.
3.	$11,000. The balance will be paid as soon as parliament grants full supply.



UNITED NATIONS INFORMATION CENTRE IN CANADA

Mr. Turner: Is there an information centre office of the United Nations in Canada and, if not, has Canada ever applied to the United Nations to open such an office in Canada?


Howard Charles Green: There is no information centre office of the United Nations in Canada. The office of the Queen's printer under an understanding reached with the United Nations acts as exclusive agent for the distribution of United Nations publications in Canada. In view of this mutually satisfactory arrangement Canada has not asked the United Nations to open an information centre office in this country.
^HOSPITAL INSURANCE PLAN, B.C.


Mr. McPhillips: 1.	Has the government of the province of British Columbia sought to take greater advantage of the terms of the federal Hospital Insurance and Diagnostic Services Act in order that B.C. residents temporarily absent from the province for a period of longer than three months may continue to receive hospital benefits under the provincial plan in the event of emergency?
2.	Under present arrangements, would a B.C. resident incurring hospital bills outside his home province after more than three months absence be personally responsible for all such bills?
3.	What limitations are imposed by other provinces on out of province benefits?


Arza Clair Casselman: 1. No. The British Columbia government has at no time sought to take greater advantage of the federal act so as to provide insurance benefits to residents temporarily absent from the province for a period in excess of three months. The hardships imposed on residents of British Columbia through this restriction have been brought to the attention of the British Columbia authorities on a number of occasions.
2.	Yes. Unless the British Columbia resident enters the hospital during the first three months of temporary absence, he loses his entitlement and is himself responsible for the payment of hospital services.
3.	Although there is a varied pattern of out of province benefits from province to province, all provinces with the exception of British Columbia provide insured services for
Orders jor Returns
residents temporarily absent from the province during a period of one year, subject to the payment of the premium or tax in premium provinces.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. Rinfrei: 1.	In 1961, how many university students at the bachelor degree level were employed during the summer as assistants in customs and excise offices?
2.	How many came from the universities of Laval, Montreal, and Sherbrooke or other centres of learning in the province of Quebec?


HISTORICAL SITES APPROVED
Mr. Badanai: How many projects, designated as historical sites, have been approved by the federal government for development or assistance during the years 1959, 1960, 1961, and 1962, giving the locations and the amount spent or approved for each?


UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE FUND
Mr. Mather: 1.	What was the total amount in the unemployment insurance fund at the end of each of the fiscal years 1956-57 to 1960-61 inclusive?
2.	What were the total payments of unemployment insurance claims during each of these fiscal years?
3.	What was the total administrative cost of operating the unemployment insurance service for each of these fiscal years?
4.	What was the total income of the unemployment insurance fund during each of the fiscal years 1956-57 to 1960-61 inclusive?


PEAT AND SPRUCE BOG, OTTAWA DISTRICT
Mr. Herridge: 1.	Does the Mer Bleue peat and spruce bog, southeast of Ottawa, come under the jurisdiction of the national capital commission?
2.	Is this bog considered a valuable wildlife sanctuary by spokesmen for the Canadian wildlife service and outstanding Canadian biologists, zoologists and naturalists?
3.	Are the national capital commission and the city of Ottawa giving consideration to the use of this bog as a garbage disposal area?
4.	What action is the government taking to prevent the destruction of this valuable wildlife sanctuary, which will provide a unique area for research and, in addition, recreational facilities?



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS


[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 50-Mr. Douglas:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all correspondence relative to duties imposed on imported fish feed exchanged between the ministers and/or Departments of Finance and National Revenue, and persons and/or organizations since January 1, 1960.
[Stage Direction]
Motions for Papers
Mr. Nowlan:: This is acceptable subject to the usual reservations about communications between departments and confidential letters, consent to whose publication will have to be received.


Mr. Speaker:: Subject to the reservations expressed by the minister, does the house agree to the passing of this motion?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 57-Mr. Matheson:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of the report of Stevenson and Kellogg Limited relating to the study conducted of Canadian penitentiaries.
Mr. Fleming (Eglinton):: No such report has been received. I suggest, therefore, that the hon. member withdraw his motion.


Mr. Speaker:: In the light of what has been said by the minister, does the hon. member withdraw his motion?


Mr. Matheson:: Yes, Mr. Speaker.
Order discharged and motion withdrawn.



MANITOBA


[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 58-Mr. Matheson:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of all correspondence to the government since December 31, 1961 relating to the plight of Indians from The Pas, Moose Lake, Norway House, Cross Lake, Island Lake, Red Sucker Lake, God's Lake, Oxford House, Sham-attawa, Split Lake, Nelson House, South Indian Lake, Pukatawagan, and Brocket.
Mr. Bell (Carleton):: Mr. Speaker, the generality of this motion would sweep in very many letters dealing with education, treaty rights and other matters with which I am sure the hon. gentleman has no immediate interest. If it is understood, as the hon. gentleman has indicated to me privately, that what he is seeking is correspondence relating to economic and social conditions and economic development generally in the areas designated, I have no objection to the motion, subject to the customary reservation dealing with intradepartmental and interdepartmental correspondence and the consent of the government of Manitoba.


Mr. Speaker:: Subject to the reservation indicated by the minister, is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the said motion?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 59-Mr. Cowan:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of all correspondence dated August 15, 1962 to December 1, 1962, between the government of Canada or any minister, department or agency thereof and the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, the Canadian National Railways, the Canadian Pacific Railway and the Bell Telephone Company of Canada, respecting the contract for telecommunications for the approximately 195 radio stations, the previous ten year contract having been replaced by a new contract effective October 1, 1962.
Mr. Halpenny:: Mr. Speaker, if this motion could stand for at least one week we would be agreeable.


Mr. Cowan:: Stand.
Motion stands.



DOMINION-PROVINCIAL CORRESPONDENCE RESPECTING PORTABILITY OF PENSIONS

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 60-Mr. McNulty:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of any correspondence since September 27,	1962, between the federal
government and any provincial government concerning the introduction of legislation dealing with the question of the portability of pensions.
Mr. Monieiih:: Yes, Mr. Speaker, subject to receiving consent from the province.


Mr. Speaker:: Subject to the consent of the province concerned, is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the said motion?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Walter L. Gordon (Davenport):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to address a question to the Minister of Finance. In view of the very large deficit on current account in our international payments for the first nine months of this year, now running at the rate of about $1 billion for the full year, does the government propose to take any immediate action to avoid another financial and exchange crisis in Canada?


George Clyde Nowlan: 
Walter Lockhart Gordon: Mr. Speaker, if I might ask a supplementary question, am I to interpret the answer of the minister as meaning "No"?
(Translation):



TREASURY BOARD


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Gerard Legare (Rimouski):: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Prime Minister. In view of the fact that the treasury board deals with all finance matters and even looks after staff transfers in the public service, could the Prime Minister tell the house why no Quebec minister sits on that said treasury board, and that ever since he has been at the head of the government?
(Text):


George Clyde Nowlan: Mr. Speaker, I have been sitting on treasury board for the last three weeks and there has been a French minister on the board all that time.



EXTERNAL AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Gerard Chapdelaine (Sherbrooke):: Could the minister inform the house of any developments concerning the international cooperation year that has been proposed by India at the United Nations?


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for Sherbrooke for giving me notice of his question. I know of the great interest he has taken in United Nations affairs, having served with distinction a few weeks ago as a Canadian observer.
The house will be interested to know that the general assembly of the United Nations in plenary session this morning unanimously adopted by a vote of 86 in favour, none against and with no abstentions, a resolution cosponsored by India, Canada and 18 other member states in pursuance of a proposal first advanced at the United Nations by Prime Minister Nehru for a year of international co-operation. The Canadian delegation played an active part in the drafting and sponsoring of this resolution, and extended its full cooperation to the delegation of India in seeking to muster the broadest possible support for it.
Inquiries of the Ministry As a matter of fact, by arrangement between the co-sponsors only Canada and India spoke to the resolution this morning.
The resolution requests the president of the general assembly to nominate a preparatory committee of up to 12 member states to consider the desirability of designating 1965, which is the 20th year of the United Nations, as international co-operation year. It is expected that the preparatory committee will be formed early in the new year to begin coordinating plans and projects. It is considered that the designation of a year of international co-operation would serve a most useful purpose in stimulating a marked increase in the existing level of international co-operation and in a number of projects in diverse fields jointly undertaken on an international basis.
Canada firmly subscribes to these aims, and it is therefore a cause of deep satisfaction that the proposal of the government of India to which this government has lent its full support has now been unanimously adopted by the general assembly of the United Nations.


PORTUGAL-REQUEST FOR STATEMENT OF CANADIAN POSITION ON RESOLUTION
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. David Lewis (York South):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to address a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs, notice of which has been given. In view of the minister's statement yesterday that Canada has been against the action taken by Portugal in Angola, is it correct that Canada voted against a United Nations resolution on this subject yesterday and, if so, would the minister outline the reasons for such vote by the Canadian delegation?


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, as I said yesterday, Canada has been and is against the actions taken by Portugal in Angola. However, this resolution was a very extreme one. It contained a provision calling on the security council to impose sanctions on Portugal. It also had an operative clause which threatened Portugal with expulsion from the United Nations, and it had another clause which would prohibit any country from supplying any arms to Portugal for its own defence, even as distinct from any arms that might have been used in Angola.
As I have explained, Canada has not been supplying arms to Portugal for approximately two years. Because of the extreme nature of the resolution, particularly with regard to sanctions and the threatened expulsion from the United Nations, Canada voted against the resolution.

Inquiries oj the Ministry


Hon. Paul Marlin (Essex East):: May I ask
a supplementary question of the Secretary of State for External Affairs. Can he say if the government is now in a position to indicate whether it proposes to support sanctions against Katanga by the United Nations?


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, at the moment there is no question of sanctions against Katanga, and we will have to see what happens if action of that kind is proposed. As a matter of fact Katanga, as the hon. member knows, is a province or district of the Congo, which makes it an entirely different situation.


Mr. Robert W. Prillie (Burnaby-Richmond):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs supplementary to the question asked by the hon. member for York South. In view of the fact that the minister stated that the resolution on Portugal was too broad for the Canadian delegation to support, did the Canadian delegation give consideration to any other type of resolution on this subject which they could support, thus showing some condemnation of Portugal?


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, Canada's position with regard to the conduct of Portugal in Angola is very clearly known at the United Nations. We have been against it throughout.



HUNGARY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Stanley Haidasz (Parkdale):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Secretary of State for External Affairs what stand the Canadian delegation will take at the United Nations regarding the United States resolution to abolish the post of United Nations special representative to Hungary.


Howard Charles Green: That vote is coming up this afternoon, I think, and Canada will be supporting the United States resolution.


Stanley Haidasz: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a supplementary question. Does the minister not think that voting for this resolution will abandon the Hungarian people to further communist domination of their country?


Howard Charles Green: No, Mr. Speaker, I do not think any such thing. Jurisdiction to carry on will rest with the secretary general.



HEALTH AND WELFARE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. E. Walker (York Centre):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of National Health and Welfare. As reported in the press, has the drug directorate asked other countries whether they have any evidence connecting trifluoperazine with congenital deformities?


Jay Waldo Monteith: Yes, Mr. Speaker, we have been in touch with other countries trying to get firm information as to their experience in this respect.


James Edgar Walker: A supplementary question. Is this urgent information sought by letter or by telephone?


Jay Waldo Monteith: Most of it by cable, Mr. Speaker.



REQUEST FOR INVESTIGATION INTO RADIOACTIVE FALL-OUT EFFECT IN NORTHERN CANADA

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Stanley Haidasz: I should like to ask a question of the Minister of National Health and Welfare. Is the minister aware of the resolution sent to his department by the technical committee for caribou preservation requesting a federal investigation into radioactive fall-out effects on humans and animals in northern Canada, where Alaskan Eskimos were found to have a level of strontium 90 four times higher than in average citizens south of the border?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I think the hon. member will recognize that his question is one for the order paper.



COLUMBIA RIVER


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. W. Herridge (Kootenay West):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to ask the Prime Minister a question of which I have not given him notice. Have any arrangements been made for representatives of the federal government, the government of British Columbia and the government of the United States to meet at Bonneville in the near future to discuss the cost price or sale price of downstream benefits from the Columbia?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, there is a meeting going on at the present time in Vancouver on the expert level.

(Translation):



TRANSPORT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Bernard Dumont (Bellechasse):: May I
ask the Minister of Transport a question? Is it possible that loans up to $100,000 were refused to owners of coasters on the St. Lawrence river merely because those vessels were not registered in Canada?


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member should put his question on the order paper.
(Text):



INQUIRY FOR RETURN

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Stanley Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of National Health and Welfare. My question relates to an order for the return of papers concerning the drug thalidomide, which was passed by the house on Wednesday, October 17, which is more than two months ago. A month ago today, on November 19, I asked if this return would soon be brought down, and the minister said the return was ready and he hoped to bring it down in a few days. Can he say when it will be brought down?


Jay Waldo Monteith: Mr. Speaker, I believe I was awaiting permission from another government before tabling the return. I will look into the matter immediately and let the hon. member know.



ST. JOHN'S WEST, NEWFOUNDLAND    INQUIRY AS TO BY-ELECTION

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. J. W. Pickersgill (Bonavisla-Twillingate):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Prime Minister whether the government has yet reached the conclusion that the people of Newfoundland should be given an opportunity to have the representation to which they are legally entitled in this house.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I can understand the complete interest of the hon. gentleman in this matter, he not being a resident of that province, but I can only say that when a decision is made in that regard action will be taken.


Mr. Caron:: The usual Diefenbaker tactics.


John George Diefenbaker: If he looks back a few years he will find out how long the government of which he was a member used to wait.
Inquiries of the Ministry


John Whitney Pickersgill: I rise on a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I asked the hon. gentleman, the right hon. gentleman, a perfectly proper question, and he has chosen in reply to make a rather cheap political speech. I suggest to Your Honour that he should be called to order.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. There are occasions when some of the answers do slip across the bar, and I hope the hon. gentleman will recognize that fact. The same remarks apply to some questions.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I rise on a question of privilege.


Mr. Speaker:: I have indicated my views on the matter.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I am rising on a question of privilege concerning the right of the people of this country to be represented in this house. I suggest that the general election will not have been completed until an election is held in St. John's West, and this delay is inexcusable.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I do not believe this is a question of the privileges of the members of this house.
(Translation):



ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. L. P. Antoine Belanger (Charlevoix):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Finance. In view of the recent happening that claimed the lives of two policemen and in which two other persons were injured, in Ville St. Laurent, a suburb of Montreal, has the government given any thought, under the Bank Act, to the possibility of forcing the banks to secure better protection against hold-ups?


Mr. Speaker:: I am sure the hon. member is aware that his question is out of order at this time.
(Text):




[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Andrew Brewin (Greenwood):: I should like to address a question, if I may, to the Minister of Justice. Will the minister tell the house whether Ralph Cochrane is to remain in solitary confinement in the light of the circumstances revealed by the hon. member for Vancouver East in this house last night?

Inquiries of the Ministry
Hon. Donald M. Fleming (Minister of
Justice): Mr. Speaker, I was not in the house last evening to hear what was said by the hon. member for Vancouver East. I will examine what he has said. I have already furnished certain information concerning this case to the hon. member for Vancouver East. I thought I gave him rather full information on the subject, which indicated that the inmate in question has had the benefit of all privileges that are available to well-behaved inmates generally except that he has not been permitted to mingle with the other inmates. He has received full meals, library and canteen privileges, radio reception and exercise periods. No restrictions have been imposed in relation to visits or correspondence. He has been free, if he wished, to interview a lawyer.


Francis Andrew Brewin: May I ask a supplementary question. Does the minister not believe it is part of his duty as Minister of Justice to see that the bill of rights is enforced?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member is just advancing an argument.



SHIPPING


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. P. V. Noble (Grey North):: I have a question for the Minister of Transport. Some time ago the government announced that it proposed to amend the Canada Shipping Act to limit the Canadian coasting trade in the great lakes and St. Lawrence river areas to vessels of Canadian registry. Is it intended that ships of commonwealth registry principally engaged in this trade will be allowed to transfer to Canadian registry?


Léon Balcer: It is the intention that ships of commonwealth registry which were engaged solely or principally in the Canadian coasting trade in the proposed limited area before the government announced its intention a year and a half ago will be permitted to transfer to Canadian registry.
However, I see no reason why ships which were not eligible for Canadian registry, and which have deliberately been brought under commonwealth registry since the date of the government announcement for the purpose of engaging in the great lakes or St. Lawrence coasting trade, should be allowed to come under Canadian registry. Ample warning was given by the government of its plans and I do not see that any case exists for ships in this latter category to be allowed on Canadian registry.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. With respect I would earnestly point out that arguments should not be advanced within the body of a reply, any more than they should be within the body of a question.



INQUIRY AS TO AMOUNT OF CURRENT DEFICIT

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Harry Bradley (Norihumberland):: should like to ask the Minister of Trade and Commerce if it is true that Canada's current trade deficit stands at $791 million.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. No; that cannot go as a question.


Hon. George H. Hees (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: Mr. Speaker, on a question of privilege I would like to correct a completely misleading headline appearing in the front page of today's Globe and Mail which would mislead the business community.


John Whitney Pickersgill: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I am raising a point of order with respect to the question of privilege. My point of order is this, that it is a matter of privilege to make a correction about any of the proceedings in this house that may have been reported in the press, but articles in the press about activities of the government may not be corrected under the guise of a question of privilege.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The extent of the minister's words in this regard were hardly heard by the Chair, but I would point out that it has been the practice, over some years, to rise in many cases to take issue with some report in the press, and I think we have got into rather bad habits so far as privilege is concerned.
Unless there is a statement by the minister that has been misinterpreted I do not know that he can rise on a question of privilege in this regard. If it arose out of a report he had made and which had been misreported, then he could rise on a question of privilege, but other than that I do not think it is possible for the minister to rise to refute or to argue with some newspaper conclusion.


George Harris Hees: Mr. Speaker, it is a misinterpreted, and badly misinterpreted, report of a bureau that comes under my jurisdiction, the dominion bureau of statistics.


Paul Joseph James Martin: On a point of order-


George Harris Hees: Oh, nonsense.


Mr. Slarr:: Liberal closure as usual.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The point of privilege overrides a point of order. I would like to hear just a little more of what the minister is trying to get at.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Mr. Speaker:: The Chair has control of the situation without too much extraneous comment. As I indicated to the minister, if there has been a misinterpretation of statistics or something like that, I think there is not a question of privilege at this time. As I indicated, privilege is limited to a distortion of something the minister may have said, and does not cover a publication which may come out under the jurisdiction of his department.


George Harris Hees: The headline, the erroneous headline, reads "Trade deficit $791 million for Canada." That is completely inaccurate because the trade deficit is not that at all. I would not like to say what-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I think we have heard enough on this one. This is not a question of privilege.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, I think that we have not heard enough, and I say this with great respect. I rose on a point of order. Your Honour correctly said that a question of privilege took precedence over a point of order. But the minister, notwithstanding the caution Your Honour gave, violated this direction, and what he could not do through the question put earlier by the hon. member for Northumberland (Mr. Bradley) he has now done. I suggest to Your Honour that the minister deserves censure at your hands for this obvious violation of your ruling.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I think the minister's statement was stopped in time, and I think the hon. member knows, so far as censure of hon. members by the Chair is concerned, how far one can go with regard to that.


Walter Lockhart Gordon: I would like to ask a question of the Minister of Trade and Commerce.


Mr. Fulton:: What is the right figure?


Walter Lockhart Gordon: Is our current account deficit in our international payments running at the rate of $1 billion a year?


George Harris Hees: I am very glad to give that answer, and I thank the hon. member for
Inquiries of the Ministry taking the place today of the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate as the No. 1. I want to say-


John Whitney Pickersgill: On a question of privilege, Mr. Speaker. My question of privilege is this, that a malicious attack has been made-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


John Whitney Pickersgill: -upon my conduct as a member of the house, and I think that the minister should be asked to apologize.


Mr. Speaker:: Well, with respect to the attitude at the moment I do not know that the feelings of anyone in particular have been overly hurt. I would caution the minister to give a reply in keeping with standing order 39, and I hope hon. members will ask questions in the same light, so that we will observe standing order 39.


George Harris Hees: My reference to the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate, which I will withdraw and for which I apologize, was that the hon. member for Davenport had taken his place as the No. 1, and that is all I said. Of course he obviously is not the No. 1; therefore I apologize.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker-


George Harris Hees: Oh, you are the No. 1?


John Whitney Pickersgill: I have a question of privilege. It is equally obvious that the hon. gentleman is not the No. 1.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I would also like to caution hon. members who wish to engage in repartee not to take the floor under the guise of a question of privilege.


George Harris Hees: Now, Mr. Speaker, I will be glad to answer the question of the hon. member for Davenport. Statistical information on Canada's international balance of payments released today by the dominion bureau of statistics shows an international payments deficit of $791 million on all current transactions for the first nine months of 1962. This deficit includes non-merchandise transactions such as interest and dividend payments and freight and shipping, as well as commodity trade. In October of this year a merchandise trade surplus of $47 million was realized, compared with a surplus of $5 million last October. The indication from available statistics-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


George Harris Hees: -is that Canada's merchandise trade will be in a surplus position for the full year 1962. The realization-


Some hon. Members:: Order.
2824	HOUSE OF
Inquiries of the Ministry


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I would crave the cooperation of the house in observing the rules.


Mr. Mcllrailh:: On a point of order- (Translation):


Mr. Gilles Gregoire (Lapointe):: Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary question for the Minister of Transport-


Mr. Speaker:: Order.
(Text):
Are we on supplementary questions or points of order?


George James McIlraith: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.


Mr. Speaker:: I will recognize a point of order.


George James McIlraith: The
point of order is this. The question put was factual, accurate as to form and in accordance with the rules. The answer, after dealing with the question asked and giving the information in accordance with the rules, did provide rather lengthy, gratuitous references. Those gratuitous references were clearly out of order, as will be seen from page 153 of the fourth edition of Beauchesne, and should have been ruled out of order.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I think we have had a sufficient exchange in this regard.
(Translation):
[Later:}


Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Speaker, I should like to put a supplementary question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce.
Am I to understand from the answer the minister just gave us, that the deficit incurred during the first nine months is due mostly to the interest paid to foreign countries on account of the policy followed by the Liberals for 22 years?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The question is argumentative and controversial. Therefore, I rule it out of order.
(Text):


Walter Lockhart Gordon: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Trade and Commerce has just given an answer which is not in fact correct.


Some hon. Members:: Order.


George Harris Hees: I object to that, Mr. Speaker.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I do not know whether I should call "seconds out" here, but the hon. member knows that he cannot comment on a reply.


An hon. Member:: He doesn't know anything.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I hope we will now get on with the business of the house.


(Translation):

On the orders of the day:


Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Speaker, I should like to put my question once more. Could the Minister of Trade and Commerce tell us if this year's deficit is chiefly due to interest payments on foreign investments?
(Text):


George Harris Hees: Mr. Speaker, the figure is $791 million today, compared with the 1956 deficit of $1,366 million.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Mr. Pearson:: That was for the whole year.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Nine months?


Mr. Speaker:: Order.



TRANS-CANADA AIR LINES MEETING ON TRANSFER OF MAINTENANCE STAFF FROM WINNIPEG TO MONTREAL

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Veterans Affairs. Has the minister received from Mayor Stephen Juba of Winnipeg an invitation to attend a meeting of Winnipeg members of parliament during the Christmas recess to discuss the question of the transfer of T.C.A. maintenance and overhaul staff from Winnipeg to Montreal? If the rest of us endeavour to be there, will the minister be there and represent the government of Canada as well as the constituency of Winnipeg South Centre?


Hon. Gordon Churchill (Minister of Veterans Affairs):: Mr. Speaker, the problem is an important one not only for Winnipeg but for Manitoba. Prior consultations would have been acceptable on the part of Mayor Juba, but we have done a great deal of work on this problem already and well in advance of the activities of Mayor Juba himself. [Later:]


Mr. Roger J. Teillet (St. Boniface):: Mr. Speaker, following the question addressed a moment ago to the Minister of Veterans Affairs-this is the question of the telegram referred to a moment ago-I would hope that the minister-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Roger-Joseph Teillet: I ask now whether he will give the house and the people of Manitoba some practical answer and not the kind of thing he gave us a minute ago.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member is not in a position to comment on the nature of a reply given to any other question.



UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Paul Joseph James Martin: May I ask
the Minister of Labour, in view of the fact we are likely to adjourn tomorrow night, if he can now give the house assurance that he has been reading the English version of the Gill report, and can he now give the house any information as to whether he has received, or when he may receive, the French translation of this very important report?


Michael Starr: Mr. Speaker, I cannot give the assurance as to the first part of the question, because the hon. member has been intimating that I have been reading this report, probably under my desk. As to the other part of the question, when the report is received it will be not only in the French version but in both the English and French versions.


Mr. Mariin (Essex Easl):: I wish to ask a supplementary question of the Secretary of State. Can he inform the house whether the French translation of the Gill report is yet in his hands and, if not, can he tell us what recent information he has been able to obtain regarding the production of the translation which he announced some two months ago?


George Ernest Halpenny: Mr. Speaker, about two weeks ago I made inquiries, as I promised I would, and at that time two thirds of the French galleys were being proof read. They should be back in Hull by this time, but I am not sure. I shall inquire.



CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Herbert Wilfred Herridge: wish to address a question to the Secretary of State. I am so annoyed that I can hardly speak, but I will do my best. Has the minister received any complaints from prominent citizens of Kootenay West with respect to statements made on "Front Page Challenge" on December 11 by Mr. Gordon Sinclair, which were offensive to the people I have the honour to represent?


George Ernest Halpenny: No, Mr. Speaker.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I have a supplementary
question. If the minister does receive complaints will he ask that they be investigated and secure a report?
27507-3-179
Inquiries of the Ministry


George Ernest Halpenny: I shall be glad to, Mr. Speaker. I shall get a copy of the tape or a copy of the script and look at it.



IMMIGRATION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John Whitney Pickersgill: I would like to ask the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration whether he has any explanation of the reasons so many more British emigrants are now going to Australia than to Canada.


Richard Albert Bell: Mr. Speaker, I will be able, during discussion on my estimates, to give very good reasons why we expect to have many more British immigrants coming to this country in the future.


John Whitney Pickersgill: May I ask a supplementary question. Has the hon. gentleman read the account in yesterday's Globe and Mail, which no doubt is one of his favorite newspapers, and could the minister say whether any steps have been taken to counteract that situation?


Thomas Miller Bell: Mr. Speaker, obviously this is a matter in which I would get into debate with the hon. gentleman. I shall be very glad to have a full debate with him at the proper time.


John Whitney Pickersgill: 1964?


Mr. Speaker:: Order.
(Translation):



POST OFFICE DEPARTMENT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Roger-Joseph Teillet: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Postmaster General.
Could the minister tell the house if she received a resolution from the city of St. Boniface or what was the answer of the department to the representations made about the names of the post offices in that city, and if she has anything to say on that?
(Text):


Hon. Ellen L. Fairclough (Postmaster General):: Mr. Speaker, I do not know about a resolution offhand, but there have been several letters and the matter is under consideration.

Interim Supply PUBLIC SERVICE



RECOMMENDATIONS FOR SALARY INCREASES NOT ACTED UPON

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of Finance in which I seek information that I am sure he must have. Are there any categories of civil servants for whom pay increases were recommended by the civil service commission who did not get pay increases a week ago Monday?


George Clyde Nowlan: I have not that information at the moment, Mr. Speaker.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, is it not going to be possible to get this question answered before the house adjourns?


Mr. Speaker:: Order.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Chown in the chair.



INTERIM SUPPLY

[Stage Direction]
Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $330,089,511.93 being the aggregate of-
(a)	one twelfth of the total of the amounts of the items set forth in the revised estimates for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1963, laid before the House of Commons at the present session of parliament, except atomic energy item 5, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation item 5, finance items 45 and 50, forestry item 11, labour item 40, legislation items 30 and 35, mines and technical surveys items 30, 35, 40, 70, 80, 125 and 130, national defence item 70, national health and welfare item 25, northern affairs and national resources items 10, 45 and 90, public works items 5, 45, 70, 100, 105, 125, 145, 168, 170, 180, 190 and 200, Royal Canadian Mounted Police items 5, 15 and 25, transport items 35, 40, 60, 80, 85, 100, 125 , 222 and 225, loans investments and advances item L20 $292,175,958;
(b)	an additional one twelfth of the amounts of defence production item 25, external affairs item 5, northern affairs and national resources item 105, of the said revised estimates, $1,842,041.67;
(c)	one twelfth of the total of the amounts of the items set forth in the supplementary estimates
(A)	for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1963, except external affairs item 112a, transport items 213a and 222a, $8,738,178.92;
(d)	ten twelfths of the total of the amounts of the items set forth in the supplementary estimates
(B)	for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1963, $27,333,333.34,
be granted to Her Majesty on account of the present fiscal year ending March 31, 1963.
Mr. Roxburgh:: Mr. Chairman, last evening when talking on the physical fitness program I pointed out that politics had entered into this program. It is very, very difficult to understand why the governor in council was given the power to select the members of the national fitness board. My reason for

raising this matter is that I feel it has put the ministers in a very, very ticklish position; I do not care who the minister is. Also there is no doubt that these men have been put in a ticklish position. When I was at the Canadian sports council I was talking with Dr. Willard, the deputy minister of welfare and I made a suggestion on behalf of the Canadian Amateur Hockey Association. He had received this suggestion from other associations and individual sportsmen, The suggestion was that the national athletic associations would send to the government one or two names of men of known executive ability from those associations, and then the government could make a selection from those names.
There is a definite feeling, no matter what is said on this question, that when a minister has to make a decision it is going to be controversial. But if they had accepted these names of men of outstanding executive ability in the field of sports, nobody could have said that politics was being played in any way, shape or form. I go further than that. I think one of the most flagrant episodes in this connection is this, and I am sorry the minister is not here because it was reported in this house. I refer to the time when the Minister of Public Works, the former minister of justice, toured western Canada. When he was there he gave a partial assurance to the Trail Smoke Eaters hockey club that he would assist them by means of a grant. Mr. Chairman, there is a definite procedure in national sports associations whereby any group, individual or team can make representations through their sports association, which submits it to the national sports fitness group.
That is the only way to do it. There is no doubt we are all put on the spot and it will become a regular schemozzle if every member in this house or the ministers in this house were going after the national sports council and asking them to do something for their constituencies. We certainly do not want that on either side of the house, I am sure. I hope we will have intestinal fortitude enough that when our constituents and people representing teams come to us we shall be able to say: "Look, this has nothing to do with politics. Go to the right source." This is a national project which is absolutely necessary in this country. I know both sides are working in sincerity in order to put this over in a big way, because we need this program.
I should like to make a comment with regard to the structural part. Some of the grants which have been given out to teams

and organizations have been justified, but a great many have not been justified and could not in any circumstances come under a physical fitness program. I do not want to give a long list, but just think of the Canadian rugby team which went over and toured England, Scotland and Ireland. They were given a donation of some $10,000 and I should like to ask the minister: what did that $10,000 do toward improving national fitness in Canada? I know he will say that such a tour makes for good relations and that they have done a good job. I agree 100 per cent, but that is not the job of a national fitness program.
A national fitness program starts with the kids. We can look to Europe and see that this is true. One thing we lack is facilities. Facilities are the main part of any national program. When I was in Ottawa at a meeting of the Canadian Sports Advisory Council some time ago I suggested to them that before they went into this matter of physical fitness they should send a delegation to the countries in Europe which have successful programs. They said they had looked into this and had a satisfactory answer to it. All I will say is this: at that time they definitely had no program. When we think of facilities we think of indoor facilities and outdoor facilities. When we think of indoor facilities we think of rinks and swimming pools. When we think of swimming pools we think of little Mary Stewart in Vancouver, a girl who has made a real contribution and put Canada's name at the top of the list. Do you know how little Mary Stewart had to practice? She practised in pools that were not long enough. Any swimmer knows that when they make the turns they take their breath and after these short swimming pools she was unable to adjust herself when she got into the longer pool of Olympic standards. As far as I know there are something like three pools built to Olympic standard in Canada. I am not sure if there are any indoors for use during the winter. If we are to have outstanding athletes they must have a program for the full season.
Whether we like it or not, during peacetime our country is judged by the prestige of our athletes. I think of little Czechoslovakia, a country of twelve and a half million people where they have had a physical fitness program going for some hundred years. I think we might well go over there to give some study to this program, a program so successful that they have walked away with the gold medals, the silver medals and the bronze medals in Olympic competition. And where has Canada been? I know that many hon. members are thinking I am talking about countries behind the iron curtain. Last night I mentioned Russia. I should like to mention 27507-3-1791
Interim Supply
West Germany. West Germany is a democratic country like our own. West Germany was ravished during the war. When I was over there two years ago, do hon. members know what they had on their program for facilities. They had what they call their golden plan, their 15-year plan. Do hon. members know what that 15-year plan means? It means $1,500 million toward facilities. Yet this government gave $5 million and then took away $4 million-this in a country which the Minister of Finance tells us is a country of prosperity. Then they squelch out $4 million toward a physical fitness program. I have asked a number of questions, some starred questions and others just questions, which have been answered. This is one of the questions which was asked. I asked: if this was a nation-wide organization, what about the province of Quebec? Where did they come into the picture? So far as I have noticed, the province of Quebec does not belong to the national organization. We should like to know more about the reasons for that.
Talking about facilities, we asked the question what amount of money was spent on the facilities? The answer came: the winter works program. Thank goodness for the winter works program. I want to commend the winter works program for the part it is playing. Those responsible for it are doing a grand job but because of the circumstances they can only do so much. How does that program work? It works through the local municipalities who have the get up and go. The ones who have that are the ones who get the rinks, sports fields or whatever they may be. But what about those sections which are afraid or unable to put up that extra money? The kids in those sections probably need the facilities a great deal more than the kids in the sections where people are up and doing. Is the program doing anything for them? We need every cent of those $5 million to start this off.
Just as important as facilities is coaching. The Canadian hockey association under Mr. Gordon Jukes as secretary manager got in touch with the universities of Canada to try to form a summer school for coaching college courses. He really received co-operation. It was brought up before the council, and I am pleased to see that the council is backing it. I sincerely hope that when it passes the final word along the government will go along with it.
It is the lack of facilities and coaching which causes us to lose our youth of today to our neighbour across the line. Mr. Chairman, last year it was my privilege to be in Colorado Springs with our hockey club. There I met a lot of former young Canadians who

Interim Supply
were graduates from the universities of the United States. They had to go there because there were no facilities here in Canada. They did not have any coaching at all in Canada, and because they had ability in running, or in swimming, or in playing hockey, the universities of the United States took them and have kept them.


An hon. Member:: And they can keep them too.


Mr. Ricard:: What did your government do for them?


John Maxwell Roxburgh: Never mind that. It is not what has been done; it is what is to be done right now.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


The Deputy Chairman:: Order. I think it is a rule of this committee that only one member can have the floor at one time, and at the present time the hon. member for Norfolk has the floor.


Mr. Cadieu (Meadow Lake):: Would the hon. member permit a question?


John Maxwell Roxburgh: There is another angle to this physical fitness question which perhaps many of us do not realize. The physical fitness program can serve a double purpose. It can go far beyond the question of fitness.


Albert C. (Bert) Cadieu: Would the hon. member permit a question?


John Maxwell Roxburgh: If my hon. friend over there would listen, I think he would agree with me. We have records showing that in every community where there have been no minor sports organizations, and where minor sport organizations were organized; with every increase in registration in these minor sports organizations less delinquency has resulted. I do not know whether hon. members realize the alarming increase in our penitentiaries population. Dominion-wise, in 1957 it was 5,400; in 1962 it was 7,200. The federal government is building five new prisons costing $4 million each. What disturbs me, and it should disturb every member of this committee, is that three of these penitentiaries are for the youth of Canada. It costs us $21 million, and the province of Ontario alone $16 million. We cannot afford not to organize youth. Each department of government looks after its own dollars and cents, and has possibly overlooked the true value to our nation of a properly run physical fitness program. When you add to this the development of moral fibre through sports activities, the returns our young men and women will get from it in the future cannot be assessed in dollars and cents. It goes far beyond that.

Very few people outside of entertainment really realize what sports mean. In closing I should like to illustrate the very great importance of sport, what it means to this country and to the countries of the world. As we know, sport is one of the main by-products of any fitness program. I could give many illustrations of this but it would take too long. The greatest medium of all for breaking down barriers is sport. It is the common denominator of all creeds and religions. It does not make any difference whether we are Jews, Catholics or Protestants. It does not make any difference whether we are black, white or yellow. When young men and women go on to the sports field within their communities within our country, and also in international competition, they are as one.
I should like to leave this thought with the committee, and especially with our enlightening friend across the way. I should like, not on behalf of the Liberal opposition party or other opposition members on behalf of any members with common sense on that side of the house to ask the Prime Minister and his executive to think twice about taking away this sum of $5 million. Because the youth of Canada-and I am speaking for the youth of Canada-are the most important members of the Canadian family; I hope everyone will agree with that. We should give more serious consideration to retaining this sum of $5 million so that the national fitness program will go, not only a long way towards the program itself but also will go a long way towards strengthening the moral fibre of our nation.


Jay Waldo Monteith: Mr. Chairman, the hon. member asked a question and I wonder whether I might have the chance to reply?


Albert C. (Bert) Cadieu: Would the hon. gentleman permit a question?


Jay Waldo Monteith: I should like to point out that he suggested that $5 million be not taken away from this program. I should like to assure the hon. member that the $5 million is in the estimates for this program, as in the statute. We do not anticipate that it will be possible to spend this amount of money this year. We did not spend it last year. The program was just under way and had to be developed in conjunction with the provinces. As yet, as has been pointed out, there is no agreement with the province of Quebec. As these agreements are developed money will be available for the provinces.
I should also like to point out, Mr. Chairman, in answer to the hon. member's suggestion that certain teams should not be assisted, that the minister has acted only on the recommendation of the sports advisory

council. It is this council which was set up. I should like to ask him this question. Does he think that the governor in council was playing politics when Mr. James Worrall was appointed to this council?


John Maxwell Roxburgh: Mr. Chairman, may I answer the first question first. You will remember that at the beginning of my remarks I said that the Prime Minister had made a statement at the opening of the hockey hall of fame about a $5 million grant. I also pointed out that only under the present government would such a thing happen. Because when any businessman, small or big, goes to borrow money, he takes a plan with him. The only reason why this money is not being spent, and the only reason why it cannot be spent, is because the government has no plan for spending the money. We can certainly show the government where to spend this money, and spend it in a big way.
As far as Mr. Worrall is concerned, I agree with the minister. I will not answer any questions except to say that you put your ministers in one dickens of a spot. But I do know this, that if you had had a program you would be able to spend your $5 million. Germany has spent $1.5 billion on facilities alone. Has the government an answer to that?


J.-H.-Théogène Ricard: What did you ever do?


Mr. Winkler:: Ask your leader what his program was.


J.-H.-Théogène Ricard: You were sleeping for 22 years.


Rémi Paul: Order.


Mr. Hellyer:: The German treasury is not empty.


Albert C. (Bert) Cadieu: Mr. Chairman-


Rémi Paul: Order. I am sorry, but if the hon. member does not receive the unanimous consent of the committee he cannot ask his question because the time of the hon. member is limited. Is it agreed?


Some hon. Members:: Yes.


Some hon. Members:: No.


Rémi Paul: The hon. member for York South.


John Maxwell Roxburgh: He would not understand it anyway.
(Translation):


David Lewis: Mr. Chairman, I readily endorse the remarks made yesterday by my leader, the hon. member for Burnaby-Coquitlam (Mr. Douglas), and those made by all hon. members who took part in this debate on national unity. As a matter of fact, I should like to repeat what I said in this house a few weeks ago:
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As everybody knows, Canada was founded to a great extent by two distinct nations, and our country will come to its fullest expression only if the equality of the French and English languages and cultures is recognized in fact as well as in law throughout the country.
Mr. Chairman, the leader of the New Democratic party did not hesitate to point out that fact and to remind the house of the recommendation he made last February when he advocated the establishment of a royal commission to look into this fundamental question. It gives us very great satisfaction to note that all parties represented in this house agree on the necessity of putting an end to the uneasiness affecting national unity and of casting aside demagogic and unpatriotic politics which threaten Canada's future.
Mr. Chairman, like all Canadian citizens, I hope that the spirit pervading this debate will survive the next election campaign. With all sincere Canadians, I hope that nobody will attempt to take political advantage of the present situation, but instead that all will strive to advocate firm unity throughout Canada.
Mr. Chairman, I urge the Prime Minister to introduce without delay the legislation tending to set up that royal commission which all those who took part in this debate seem to be asking for.
In my opinion, Mr. Chairman, this is the most suitable time to act along these lines. We must not wait until tension increases to the breaking point. We must not wait any more to make the historic move which will enable Canada, I am sure, to strengthen its ties so as to present to the whole world, when the confederation centennial will be celebrated in 1967, the best possible example of unity and understanding between two equal races, which are partners in the development and progress of one of the richest and most beautiful countries in the world.
I repeat that the time to act has come. At a time when all parties agree on that matter, it is up to the Prime Minister to make now the historic move that is requested by everybody.
(Text):
I should like, before going on to the major subject of my remarks, to say a few words in English on the subject, and deliberately in English, with respect to a gentleman in Hamilton and with respect to an organization recently set up in the province of Quebec. I refer to a man of the cloth in the city of Hamilton who had the bad grace and the lack

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of understanding of Canada to raise objections, expressed in violent language, against the teaching of French in the schools of the province of Ontario, and I say: Shame to him and to others like him in English speaking Canada.
I also draw the attention of the house to the few noisy separatists in the province of Quebec who have recently formed what they call a political organization for the purpose of tearing Quebec away from Canada and establishing what they call the republic of Quebec. It is these two extremes in our country, fortunately representing relatively few people in both sections of Canada, who cause so much trouble. It is against those people and their influence that a royal commission of inquiry could once and for all establish the kind of harmony to which everyone who has spoken in this chamber looks forward for our country.
I turn from this to a related world problem. I turn from the conception which has been underlined by the Leader of the Opposition in noble and appropriate words and underlined by my leader in equally appropriate words, the proposition of the equality of the two major nations in Canada-and all other groups as I am sure the Leader of the Opposition and my leader would agree-to the astounding attitude of our government. I refer to its policy with respect to the treatment which is now meted out on the continent of Africa by the government of the Union of South Africa, and by the government and forces of Portugal, to the African people under their rule and under their control.
I remind the house of the fact that, in answer to questions, the Prime Minister some days ago stated with respect to South Africa that this country was not going to honour a request by the United Nations resolution for an economic boycott of South Africa because, said he, we do some $40 million or $50 million worth of trade with South Africa and therefore we are not going to cut it off. I remind the committee also of the fact that in recent days Canada abstained from voting on a resolution condemning Portugal for its treatment of the African people in the west African territories under its administration, and that only yesterday, as the Secretary of State for External Affairs informed us earlier, Canada opposed a similar resolution of condemnation of Portugal because of its barbaric and inhuman behaviour toward the Africans in Angola. He said that the resolution was too extreme for Canada to swallow and digest.
I have a copy of the resolution in my hand, Mr. Chairman. The minister said the resolution suggested that Portugal was going to be thrown out of the United Nations. With great respect, I do not see that in the resolution,

and may I make clear that neither my colleagues nor I favour the expulsion of any member of the United Nations. We favour the United Nations being all-inclusive. What this resolution does is to remind the government of Portugal that her continued non-implementation of the resolutions of the general assembly and the security council-these are resolutions relating to territories under Portuguese control-is inconsistent with her membership in the United Nations.
What can be more clear than that the kind of barbarism, the kind of racialism, the kind of oppression which the Portuguese government is now carrying on in Angola and other territories under its control is indeed inconsistent with membership in the United Nations, a membership which accepts the propositions in the charter of the United Nations and in the declaration on human rights?
The minister said that Canada could not swallow the suggestion of sanctions. May I put on the record, Mr. Chairman, what the resolution says on that score? The resolution requests the security council to take appropriate measures, including sanctions, to secure Portugal's compliance with this resolution. That is the Portuguese resolution of the general assembly and of the security council. I ask, what could be a more reasonable request on the part of the assembly than that the security council, the executive arm of the United Nations, take appropriate steps, including sanctions, to assure that Portugal will comply with her obligations under the United Nations charter.
What we have, Mr. Chairman, I suggest- and I do not for one moment apologize for using the rather strong language I am about to use-is a statement by the leaders in the government of our country that because of $40 million or $50 million worth of trade with South Africa, because of the fact Portugal is a member of NATO and we are a member of NATO, we are prepared to abandon the basic principles on which democracy is founded and upon which this country is founded, and throw to the wolves the concepts of human rights, human equality and human dignity. We are prepared to do this in order to hold $40 million or $50 million worth of trade with South Africa and in order to enable our fellow member in NATO, Portugal, to have arms. There cannot be any greater condemnation of the policies of NATO in the eyes of the uncommitted peoples of the world than the excuse that because Portugal is a member of NATO we are going to supply it with arms and other military equipment, so that country can continue its oppression of the African people in its territories.

Where is the moral leadership in the world today, Mr. Chairman? I have looked carefully into some of the reports coming out of South Africa. Everyone here has already read the reports coming out of Angola and other Portuguese territories. I want to put on the record, Mr. Chairman, certain words which I wish could be inscribed indelibly on the minds and hearts of all the leaders of the western nations. The following are the words of Nelson Mandela, lieutenant of chief Albert Lutuli in South Africa, a Nobel prize winner who has been virtually under detention by the government. Mr. Mandela was in court on various charges and was making a defence of his actions before the court. In the course of that defence he said this:
Through bitter experience, we have learned to regard the white man as a harsh and merciless type of human being whose contempt for our rights, and whose utter indifference to the promotion of our welfare, makes his assurances to us absolutely meaningless and hypocritical.
I say to hon. members of this house, Mr. Chairman, and I plead with the government, that our attitude on South Africa, our attitude on Portugal, our attitude to these governments which deny and destroy the concept of human rights, of human dignity in the countries over which they rule, is wrong and unwise, especially in the light of the statement by Mr. Mandela that our assurances to them are absolutely meaningless and hypocritical. If the western nations of the world want to win the support and confidence of the African peoples and the Asian peoples, it is time we abandoned the ruthless mercantilism which is implied in the answer of the Prime Minister and the ruthless militarism which is implied in the answer of the Secretary of State for External Affairs, and acted in accordance with the principles set out in the preamble to the bill of rights of which the Prime Minister is so proud.
Let me remind hon. members what we said in this parliament:
The parliament of Canada, affirming that the Canadian nation is founded upon principles that acknowledge the supremacy of God, the dignity and worth of the human person and the position of the family in a society of free men and free institutions;
Affirming also that men and institutions remain free only when freedom is founded upon respect for moral and spiritual values and the rule of law;
I ask, Mr. Chairman, what moral and spiritual values is this government defending when it refuses to take action in concert with other nations of the United Nations to punish South Africa and Portugal for their oppression of human beings in their territories and to find some way of changing the policies in those lands.
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What is happening in South Africa? Mr. Mandela, to whom I have referred, in his speech to the court described in these words the situation in which he found himself:
I found myself trailed by officers of the security branch of the police force wherever I went. In short I found myself treated as a criminal, an unconvicted criminal. I was not allowed to pick my company, to frequent the company of men, to participate in their political activities, to join their organizations. I was not free from constant police surveillance any more than a convict in one of our jails is free from surveillance. I was made, by the law, a criminal, not because of what I had done, but what I stood for, because of what I thought, because of my conscience. Can it be any wonder to anybody that such conditions make a man an outlaw of society?
According to an article in the London Observer, Mr. Chairman, during the month of May 1962, prior to the proclamation of South Africa as a republic, almost 10,000 Africans were arrested in house raids throughout the country. The ostensible reason was to avoid republican day agitation. Also to the same end, ostensibly the government rushed through the house in less than one week the general law amendment act. This general law amendment act gave magistrates the right to refuse bail for 12 days; gave magistrates the right to refuse a trial by jury and shifted the onus on the accused to prove his innocence, contrary to the basic principles for which we stand.


An hon. Member:: They do that in France.


David Lewis: France is an entirely different story. The hon. gentleman says they do this in France, but he is wrong. What they do in France, and in other countries of Europe, is that they have an entirely different system of the enforcement of law; they have various investigations and inquiries that make their system whole. In South Africa they pretend to have our system of justice and under our system of justice it is considered an injustice, cruel and undemocratic, to place the onus upon the accused to prove his innocence.
In April, 1962, the tension in South Africa is reported to have increased to the extent that South Africa built up its defence apparatus, mainly its permanent force, security police, and armed services for the purpose of suppressing an armed revolt. Then, last May I believe it was, Mr. Chairman, or perhaps in June, they passed what is known as the sabotage bill. By all accounts, this is the most vicious piece of legislation of its kind since Hitler's Germany. This is the country with which we say we are going to continue to trade because of the $40 million or $50 million of trade that is involved.
The London Observer said in an editorial at the end of May that from now on the conflict will assume its true Hitlerian character.

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Under this act sabotage has been defined as injury or damage to property, and even obstructing traffic. The penalties tor these as well as more serious offences is the death sentence, or a minimum compulsory five years imprisonment. It applies to juveniles as well as to adults and, according to the act, there is no appeal.
I think it is important to set these matters on record because as I watch what is happening in Canada, the United States, the United Kingdom and other western nations today, with respect to South Africa and Portugal, I am reminded of what happened in the thirties. In 1935, I returned to this country after an absence of three years during which time I among many other people visited Germany, and met many Canadians who listened to our stories as to what was happening in Germany. Even though it might have penetrated their minds they did not let it penetrate their hearts because, like decent people everywhere, they found it impossible to believe that men could act in so inhuman a fashion as the nazis were acting in Germany. It was only after the war ended that they realized there indeed was a regime that was barbaric and inhuman, which took millions of people into the gas chamber, which did destroy human beings because of difference in colour or religion, and which did have all the vicious tendencies we who visited Germany had talked about in the thirties.
At that time people in Canada and elsewhere, people with good minds and good character, and who lived in free societies, found it difficult to believe those things were happening; but today in the same way the white world, the western nations, are making precisely the same mistake one would have thought they would once have learned to avoid. They are making the mistake of not believing that white people, such as the government of South Africa, could be guilty of such things and that Portugal could be guilty of them.
The Secretary of State for External Affairs is one of the finest and gentlest human beings I have had the pleasure of meeting; yet he says in all honesty, and I am sure in all integrity, that he sat beside the minister representing Portugal at the NATO council meeting and was impressed that there were two sides to the question. His words were "more than one side". Mr. Chairman, there cannot be two sides to cruelty; there cannot be two sides to barbarism; there cannot be two sides to inhumanity. There is only one side. It is evil; it ought to be punished, and every assembly in the civilized world ought to take action against it. I am ashamed that

a minister of the government of my country should be able to see two sides in such a matter.
In my submission economic sanctions are now, as they have been throughout the years, one of the major weapons short of war in the hands of the agencies of collective security. I suggest there is really no other weapon of coercion; and I frankly admit it is a weapon of coercion, short of war, when all attempts at persuasion have failed to achieve the purposes sought.
The attitude of the government with respect to South Africa and Portugal reminds me, and I am sure all hon. members here will remember it as I recall the story, of the time in 1935 when Dr. Riddell, one of the representatives of Canada at the league of nations in Geneva, appointed by the Liberal government before 1930 and who served during the Bennett regime from 1930 to 1935, committed this country to oil sanctions against Italy because of its invasion of Ethiopia. Then the government which came in in October of that year repudiated Dr. Riddell through the mouths of gentlemen like the late Mr. Lapointe and Mr. Mackenzie King.
Now once again we are great collective securitists, great supporters of the United [DOT]Nations and of the idea of the United Nations, but only until such time as we have to take an action which may jeopardize several million dollars worth of our trade, or until such time as we have to take an action which may hurt the military status of one of the members of NATO.
I	say that the government in October, 1935, betrayed the league of nations and its purposes, and the government of this country today, together with the governments of other countries with which we are allied, are now betraying the purposes of the United Nations and the purposes of the charter of the United Nations by our attitude toward these things in South Africa, Angola and other African territories under the administration of Portugal.
You will recall, Mr. Chairman, that when the question of economic sanctions was discussed in the political commission of the United Nations, Mr. Duma Nokwe, former secretary general of the African national congress, now banned, replied to the position taken by Mr. Crowes, the United Kingdom delegate, who had said that sanctions would hurt the Africans more than it would hurt those supporting apartheid. Mr. Duma Nokwe said:
II	Mr. Crowes views are accepted by the members of the U.N., this would be the surest way of reducing the chances of a peaceful solution

of the problems of South Africa and of creating the atmosphere for bloodshed and chaos ... The only way-
And I commend this to hon. members-
-of teaching the whites that racialist policies must be abandoned is by removing the economic benefits which they think they get from this system. It is fallacious to suggest that if economic sanctions were imposed on South Africa the nonwhites would suffer most.
The Reverend Michael Scott, who was a South African and was banned by the South African government, writing in the Observer of recent issue said that the trend to violence woud unleash "a holocaust of hatred the like of which has not been seen anywhere in Africa or Asia."
I regret this kind of comment has to be made on interim supply instead of on a debate on external affairs, and I am sorry this has to be the case. I suggest that if western nations are not careful, the moral leadership of the world will be given to the new nations of Asia and Africa, and these people who have reason to suspect us and resent our behaviour in the past will be ripe for communist dogma and communist solutions of their problems. Part of our weaponry against communist expansion is steadfast support of the rights of nations to independence, and steadfast support for the equality of all men, white black or yellow and, no matter what the cost, we should not waver in our support of those basic principles.
Nelson Mandela, to whom I have already referred, said in his speech, and I commend his noble words to everyone in this chamber:
I hate the practice of race discrimination, and in doing so, in my hatred, I am sustained by the fact that the overwhelming majority of mankind hates it equally. I hate the systematic inculcation of children with colour prejudice and I am sustained in that hatred by the fact that the overwhelming majority of mankind, here and abroad, are with me in that. I hate the racial arrogance which decrees that the good things of life shall be retained as the exclusive right of a minority of the population, and which reduces the majority of the population to a subservience and inferiority, and maintains them as voteless chattels to work where they are told and behave as they are told by the ruling minority.
Nothing that this court can do to me will change in any way that hatred in me, which can only be removed by the removal of the injustice and the inhumanity which I have sought to remove from the political, social and economic life of this country.
Mr. Chairman, I say that when we have fought to uphold the ideas that Mr. Mandela- a lawyer trained, if I am correct in my memory, in Britain-took from us, it is our duty, we who have spread these ideas or at least helped to spread them, to give them a reality in the lives of the people of Africa. That means the people of South Africa, the people of Angola, the people of other west 27507-3-180
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African territories under Portuguese administration. If we cannot make them a reality through persuading the South African government and the Portuguese government, we must make them a reality in the lives of these people through the coercion short of war which is represented by economic sanctions and by the refusal to supply these inhuman governments with arms and other military equipment.
I say, Mr. Chairman, of what value is it to belong to the United Nations, to proclaim the charter of the United Nations, to be a signatory to the declaration of human rights, to boast of our presence in that international body, to speak of its importance to the world-of what use is all that if, when the United Nations adopts a resolution requiring economic sanctions against a country, we ignore it because it may hurt our trade a little; and when the United Nations adopts a resolution requiring economic sanctions against another country, we ignore it because we happen to be in a military alliance with that country. That is equally as reprehensible and equally as destructive of the moral place of the United Nations in the world as is the reprehensible Soviet behaviour in refusing to pay its contribution to the United Nations action in the Congo, or the behaviour of France in refusing to pay the same thing. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that every time-


Rémi Paul: Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member but his time has expired.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Chairman, this discussion on interim supply has roamed far and wide. Indeed, I have taken part in the roaming myself and I make no apology for that. If I speak again, it is to deal with a specific matter arising out of the request for interim supply. But I think it should be pointed out that, while the discussion of this matter has roamed far and wide, some very important matters have been brought before the house which could not have been brought before the house in any other way at this time.
Mr. Chairman, we met in late September instead of in early August, and since we met the business of this house has been arranged in such a way that many of the most urgent questions could not be debated in the way in which they should have been debated. This requires that these matters should be raised in the kind of discussion that we are having this week. Some of the matters brought forth in this discussion could well have been brought forth as parts of separate debates dealing with them if the house had been so organized and if we had had time to debate some of the important matters that

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have now been raised. For instance, the failure of the government to formulate policy in the field of transportation; the failure of the government to have trade policy discussed in the house in order to ascertain how long term solutions to the different problems of international trade could be achieved; the accusations or charges that are being made that the Royal Canadian Mounted Police are making unwarranted investigations into the political opinions of individual citizens; the failure of the government to bring forth for discussion in this house the Columbia river treaty; the failure of the government to develop and enunciate a defence policy; the failure of the government to make it possible for us to have a debate on foreign affairs so that we could discuss within the context of such a debate the important matters for instance, that have just been raised by my hon. friend who has just spoken; the failure of the government to deal constructively with the problems of eastern agriculture. These are matters that require separate debate in this house. Because we have not been able to organize our business so that could be done, and because we did not meet, as we should have met, earlier this summer, we have had to take advantage of this kind of motion in order to bring these matters to the attention of the house in the hope that government spokesmen would deal with them in replying to the points made by spokesmen from the opposition. I believe I am right in saying that none of the points I have mentioned-and there have been others-has been dealt with in any way by any spokesman on behalf of the government.
Now, Mr. Chairman, we find ourselves in a position-I think I am using the words of the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre- where the government has got itself boxed in, in a parliamentary sense, in regard to the question of supply. The old parliament granted interim supply for seven months. Twice in this parliament further supply has been granted, each time for one month. I am right in saying that on each occasion interim supply was expedited by the opposition so we could get ahead with other important business which we assumed the government would bring forward. Our assumption and our hopes in that regard were denied by the event. There is, I believe, no precedent in our parliamentary history for a government asking for the tenth monthly instalment of the total expenditures for a year before one single item of annual expenditure has been voted by parliament- not one. This is something that has not happened before in our parliamentary history.


Mr. Aiken:: Whose fault is it?


Lester Bowles Pearson: We will soon find out whose fault it is.


Gordon Harvey Aiken: Yes, let us find out.


Lester Bowles Pearson: It is a traditional and fundamental right of parliament to vote taxes before they are collected and to approve expenditures before they are made. When these rights are ignored, when they are violated, parliament itself is being violated and we are taking a step toward its destruction. No matter how wide a circulation we give and no matter in what form, to the bill of rights, and no matter how much we may talk about Magna Carta and the bill of rights, no matter how emotionally we may wrap ourselves up in parliamentary or national flags, both these rights I have mentioned are being deliberately and systematically violated by the present government. New rates of taxation recommended in the budget last April have been collected for over eight months without parliamentary approval. Taxes of an annual value of $200 million, imposed by order in council- an order in council of doubtful legal and constitutional validity and about which we cannot get the legal opinion on which it was based-have been collected for six months. Every effort we have made to bring these taxes before parliament for approval or for rejection has been frustrated and refused.
Now in this bill we are asked to give the government a cheque for another one-twelfth of our annual expenditure. That would make a total of some $5 billion in blank cheques to this government. Of course, this bill is totally unnecessary. We are considering it only because the government has failed to respect the constitutional rights of the elected representatives of the people. If the government had wished, the government could have secured approval of the annual expenditures and of the tax changes proposed in the last budget before holding a general election. The government chose instead, as was its right, to appeal to the people for a new mandate. They did not receive that mandate. But they exercised that right of appeal to the people before any single estimate had been passed and before there had been a budget debate.
After the election, as has been said before in this house, the government had a right to carry on as a caretaker administration, but only until the earliest date at which parliament could have been summoned. That date would have been the last week in July. Parliament, as we have said on this side, should have met then and the government should have asked at once for a vote of confidence. That question would have been settled under our rules after eight days of debate at the most. If the government had

secured a vote of confidence after eight days it could then have placed the new taxation measures before parliament at once. That could have been done, of course, in a budget which would have contained those long term financial and economic proposals promised by the Prime Minister at that time with great solemnity and with great emphasis, as something which would be introduced at the earliest opportunity to take the place of the emergency proposals which were made at the time the austerity program was announced on June 24 and 25.
If the government had done that, the budget debate would have been limited under our rules to six days. The tax proposals resulting from such a budget would not have taken long to deal with. The revised estimates could have been tabled at once and priority could have been given to the consideration of those estimates in the latter part of August and September. The whole program of taxation and expenditure could have been disposed of by the beginning of October if such a program had been followed by this government and if the government had continued to maintain the confidence of the house. Then October, November and December would have been available to the government for legislation. If the budget and the long term program for dealing with our basic problems had been approved, the session could have been concluded before Christmas, instead of the House of Commons finding itself in the position in which it finds itself now, a position which has been graphically described in the Winnipeg Free Press-I know hon. gentlemen opposite will not like it, but this extract from that newspaper of the day before yesterday describes the situation very accurately. It reads:
Parliament is about to adjourn for its Christmas holidays without coming to grips with any basic Canadian problem.
Then the writer goes on:
Since September the government has blamed the opposition for blockading public business and argued that it could not get on with its major policies of financial and economic reform until the routine agenda was cleared away. It knows, however, that if any major policy were submitted, parliament would consider it without delay. None has been submitted. Parliament will just go home for Christmas with everything of importance postponed.
It is true, of course, that there has been nothing of real general economic importance placed on the order paper so far. The long range economic policies of the government about which the Prime Minister talked so much and so eloquently last June and July-[DOT] where are they? There have been some important features of specific legislation put on the order paper. There is even one which is of some general economic importance, the 27507-3-180i
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setting up of a national development board; but that turns out to be less important than some of us had been led to believe. There is nothing on the order paper, and there has been nothing to give us the chance of implementing in any shape or form the long range economic policies of the government which the Prime Minister said were necessary at the time of the emergency and which would replace the emergency austerity program.
If the government had followed the course of calling parliament together at the end of July, if it had managed to organize in an efficient way the business of this house, we would have reached the point by now of having this legislation and these policies in action and we could have come back in the new year conscious, perhaps, that we had been able to do something-if we come back at all.
The Prime Minister and his supporters say we are responsible over here for any delay there has been. They say we have been holding things up. They used that argument last spring as an excuse for going to the country. They ask: why don't you speed up business? Why don't you get ahead? May I point out that we have made three specific and concrete proposals from this side to government spokesmen which would have had the effect of speeding up the progress of the business which is now on the order paper. We have said three things, none of which has been taken up as far as we know. We have agreed to the allocation of time to specific legislation. That would be done by agreement, and it is a very important concession for an opposition to make. We have agreed to a reduction, if it is a reduction to 30 minutes of the time spent on oral questions on orders of the day, and we have agreed to the prolongation of each day's sitting beyond ten o'clock if that should be necessary to complete the current business before the house or the committee of the whole. These are three specific proposals which have been made by this side as an indication of our willingness to get ahead even with the business which the government has on the order paper.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Would the hon. gentleman permit a question?


Lester Bowles Pearson: I only have ten minutes.


Some hon. Members:: Sit down.


Gordon Minto Churchill: It is completely unfair.


Lester Bowles Pearson: It is not completely unfair.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Drag in your socialist
friends.

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Lester Bowles Pearson: I am speaking for the Liberal party and we put forward these proposals.
Now, Mr. Chairman, a government which was standing on its responsibilities to parliament and to the people of this country, after the election results of last June would have proceeded as I have indicated. A government with any understanding of the fundamental rights of parliament would have proceeded in that way. Mr. Chairman, you know what has happened. You know the position in which we find ourselves now, after many weeks of sitting in this house, after many weeks of confusion, indecision and mismanagement of the business of this house by the government, with bills being brought in and withdrawn, with bills being talked out by supporters of the government themselves. You recall, Mr. Chairman, one evening when the bankruptcy of the management of this house was so apparent that we came to a point where we were about to complete the business before us; nothing else was before us so government members themselves had to filibuster their own order paper.
Now, Mr. Chairman, we are being asked to vote blind on another monthly instalment of the annual expenditures, bringing the amount of blank cheques now up to $5 billion. Then we are being asked to go home for a month and come back to issue another blank cheque making up eleven twelfths of $6 billion of taxpayers' money.
What a travesty of parliamentary government. Mr. Chairman, who would have thought that any government of Canada would dare go so far as even to attempt to spend so much without any parliamentary decision on a single item of estimates. As I have already stated, parliament's examination of, and control over, government spending is the very foundation of our democratic parliamentary system. But this year the estimates of only one department have been brought before parliament. Presumably we will be discussing the rest in February with eleven twelfths of the expenditure already spent. The government will not be explaining or defending its plans and its expenditure. It will be reporting to the house on old history, on what it has already spent. That is the situation in which we now find ourselves when we are asked to vote this further interim supply.
Mr. Chairman, as we have already indicated we on this side are prepared to vote this measure of interim supply in order to enable the business of the country to go on into the new year. But we feel that because of this situation in which parliament now is, owing to the inefficiency of the government and the mismanagement of its business, instead of parliament taking a month's holiday we

should come back right after the new year in order to deal with the very real and urgent problems facing this country, if the government will bring forward measures to deal with them. So I repeat that while we will once again let this part of interim supply go through, we protest against the procedures of this government in the fundamental question of the control of parliament over taxation.
The way in which they have handled this matter is a shocking example of contempt of parliament. A government which shows this kind of contempt of parliament has no right to go on sitting on the benches opposite failing so lamentably to govern. And we have no right, Mr. Chairman, to keep this evasive, inactive and indecisive government sitting there. Mr. Chairman, the Canadian people are entitled to something better than perpetual interim supply.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Chairman-


Some hon. Members:: Five o'clock.


The Chairman:: Order.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Chairman-


Some hon. Members:: No, five o'clock. Obey the rules.


Gordon Campbell Chown: Order, please. I am sure the Prime Minister realizes that it is five o'clock, but I feel that if he had a word or two-


Some hon. Members:: No.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Chairman-


An hon. Member:: He has no regard for the rules.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Chairman, having just heard a lecture on parliament, I thought it right that-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Some hon. Members:: Five o'clock.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Chairman, I do not mind them howling me down.


Some hon. Members:: Five o'clock.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Chairman, I was going to ask-


An hon. Member:: Breaking the rules.


John George Diefenbaker: -whether the Leader of the Opposition-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Gordon Campbell Chown: Order.


John George Diefenbaker: -whether the Leader of the Opposition-


Gordon Campbell Chown: Order.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Chairman, I have only a question to ask the Leader of the Opposition, and of course his supporters, for whom he says he speaks, will deny me this. Will he and the other members of the house, knowing that I have to leave tomorrow afternoon and will not have an opportunity to reply-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


John George Diefenbaker: -allow me, with consent, to speak for ten minutes? That is all I ask.


Some hon. Members:: No.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Chairman, on the point that the Prime Minister has made, from the only information which was available to me, the newspapers, I understood that he was not leaving until four o'clock tomorrow afternoon and I thought he would have ample opportunity to reply tomorrow afternoon before leaving the house at four o'clock. But if the Prime Minister says he has no opportunity to reply I do not see why he should not be given a few minutes at this time, though that is a courtesy which has not been extended to this side of the house.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Gordon Campbell Chown: Order, please.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: The same old Grit closure.


Gordon Campbell Chown: Order. Is it agreed then that I shall not see the clock for a few minutes?


Some hon. Members:: Ten minutes.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Gordon Campbell Chown: The right hon. the Prime Minister.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Chairman-


An hon. Member:: Time's up.


John George Diefenbaker: I have to have unanimous consent and all I want to do is to answer some of the fallacious statements that were made, but if that is the attitude and if there is going to be-


Mr. Argue:: Even the Prime Minister cannot break the rules.


John George Diefenbaker: Did you mention breaking the rules? No, I will not carry on.


Some hon. Members:: Closure.


An hon. Member:: Just cheapskates.


J.-H.-Théogène Ricard: You are all a bunch of cheap Grits.


Gordon Minto Churchill: The Liberal party will suffer for this.


An hon. Member:: A bunch of jokers.
Business of the House


Paul Joseph James Martin: A country without a government.


J.-H.-Théogène Ricard: A bunch of cheap Grits.


Murdo William Martin: A country without a government.


Gordon Campbell Chown: Order.


An hon. Member:: Why don't you call an election?


Raymond Joseph Michael O'Hurley: Ybu do not want one.


Murdo William Martin: A country without a government.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Let us have a little fair play in this chamber.


Some hon. Members:: Closure.


Gordon Campbell Chown: Order. It being five o'clock I leave the chair in order that the house may proceed to the consideration of private members' business pursuant to section 3 of standing order 15.


Mr. Depuly Speaker:: Order.


An hon. Member:: Real fair play.
Another hon. Member: What about the rules?


Mr. Depuly Speaker:: Order. The Chair is not lacking in patience. It being five o'clock the house will now proceed to the consideration of private members' business as listed on today's order paper, namely notices of motion and public bills.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Speaker, by party arrangement we have agreed to move from the ordinary business of notices of motion and public bills and discuss instead under government orders as the first item, No. 2 on today's order paper, which is Bill No. C-93, as the second item No. 21 on today's order paper, the resolution dealing with the Federal-Provincial Fiscal Arrangements Act, and as No. 3 item No. 29 on today's order paper dealing with an amendment to the National Housing Act with regard to sewage treatment projects throughout Canada. The general understanding was that these three measures would be passed in all stages between now and six o'clock.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, it should be possible to get these three measures through very quickly and I should like to suggest that if they are through by half past five or a quarter to six we revert to interim supply.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, in view of the sudden change of front and change of conscience that offer is no longer accepted.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.
2838	HOUSE OF
Canadian National Railways


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, the statement made by the house leader is quite correct. There was all-party agreement that we would do what he has suggested. There is just one point that I think might be put on the record and that is that the private members' hour being given up today will be added at a later date. I am sure the Minister of Veterans Affairs is prepared to give that undertaking.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Yes, I so do, Mr. Speaker.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Is the arrangement suggested by the government house leader agreed to by all parties?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.



CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS


[Stage Direction]
The house in committee on Bill No. C-93, respecting the construction of a line of railway in the province of New Brunswick by Canadian National Railway Company from Nepisiguit Junction on the Bathurst subdivision of the Canadian National Railways in a southerly and westerly direction for a distance of approximately 15 miles to the property of Brunswick Mining and Smelting Corporation Limited-Mr. Balcer-Mr. Chown in the chair.
Clauses 1 to 8 inclusive agreed to.
Title agreed to.
On the schedule.
Robert Jardine McCleave: May I point out that the schedule was not called?


Gordon Campbell Chown: Shall the schedule carry?


[Stage Direction]
Schedule agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.

George Clyde Nowlan: that the house go into committee to consider the following resolution:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to amend the Federal-Provincial Fiscal Arrangements Act to provide an arrangement with respect to fiscal years commencing on or after April 1, 1962 similar to that provided in the Federal-Provincial Tax-Sharing Arrangements Act with respect to previous fiscal years; to provide also in the said amendment for an increase of one third in the amount of the payment, from one dollar and fifty cents to two dollars per capita.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Chown in the chair.


George Clyde Nowlan: Ordinarily, I would be making a statement of some length. However, in view of the agreement which has been arrived at between the various parties in order to facilitate progress on this other legislation, I will not do so. I should like to say, very briefly, that the purpose of this resolution is to increase the grants to universities from $1.50 to $2 per capita and also to legalize certain arrangements which have been made between the government of Canada and the government of the province of Quebec. Then, if the committee desires, Mr. Chairman, I have a table here showing the various payments which have been made under this provision since it came into effect. I should like to have that inserted in the record, if that is agreeable, and I shall dispense with saying anything more.


Some hon. Members:: 
Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Chairman, I do not believe that there has been an agreement between the leaders of the four parties as far as this bill is concerned, which deals with an important matter, the federal-provincial fiscal arrangements. They have not reached us yet.
(Text):


[Stage Direction]
Clause agreed to.
On clause 2.
John Whitney Pickersgill: Perhaps the minister could tell us, very briefly, to satisfy my hon. friend from Lapointe, why the date is 1962?


George Clyde Nowlan: That was the date agreed upon between the two governments in connection with the implementation of this agreement.


John Whitney Pickersgill: There is complete understanding between the two governments?


George Clyde Nowlan: Of course, my hon. friend knows it was worked out before I happened to have responsibility for this department. However, I have been assured there was complete understanding and complete agreement and the details were worked out with the co-operation of both parties. (Translation) :


Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Chairman, to come back to that, although the terms of this measure have been agreed upon by the federal and provincial governments, I do not have more confidence in the bill for all that. Why be in such a rush to pass this bill?
(Text):


John Whitney Pickersgill: May I make a suggestion that may facilitate the business of the house? Perhaps the third reading of the bill could be put over until tomorrow at the opening of the session and that would give the hon. gentleman a chance to satisfy himself about these provisions and to say a few words at that time.


George Clyde Nowlan: If that would be acceptable to hon. members, I would be prepared, if we could pass the bill through the committee stage now, to have third reading tomorrow after there has been a full opportunity to study the bill. The language is somewhat technical, but it is very brief.


(Translation):


Gilles Grégoire: In other words, we agree to it and then, we study it.
(Text):


[Stage Direction]
Clause agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported.


Edmund Davie Fulton: that the house go into committee to consider the following resolution:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to amend the National Housing Act, 1954 to extend for an additional two years the period within which the construction of a sewage treatment project in respect of which a loan has been or is to be made must be completed if the municipality or municipal corporation is to be granted a reduction of indebtedness.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Chown in the chair.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Mr. Chairman, I understand that because of the speed with which we have moved in the last few minutes there will be some little delay in actually getting copies of the bill up here in order that they may be available to hon. members for study when we actually reach that stage. Perhaps I could make a brief statement to explain the purpose of the bill.


John Whitney Pickersgill: May I ask the minister if this is his valedictory?


Edmund Davie Fulton: No, I shall have even more important things to say in my valedictory.
The purpose of the bill which this legislation precedes is to extend the forgiveness date applicable to federal loans for construction of sewage treatment projects under Part VIB of the National Housing Act.
Hon. members will recall that this program was authorized under an amendment to the National Housing Act passed by parliament in December, 1960. Under this part of the act, Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation is authorized to make long term, low interest loans to municipalities for the construction and expansion of central treatment or disposal plants or the construction of trunk collector sewers. The loans may be for periods of up to 50 years and for amounts equal to two thirds of the cost of the projects.
The 1960 legislation provided for partial debt cancellation where projects were completed or were under construction by March 31, 1963. In these cases the corporation was authorized to forgive payment of 25 per cent of the amount of the loan advanced, and 25 per cent of the interest accrued on the amount outstanding. The purpose of these provisions was twofold: to provide an incentive to

municipalities to make an early start on these works and to encourage additional employment in construction and allied fields.
In view of the national significance of the program, the government is now asking parliament to extend the effective date of this forgiveness clause by an additional two year period.
I think most of us recognize that one of the most pressing problems of the times is the steady and increasing pollution of our soil and water resources. This not only threatens conservation of the nation's wildlife, it interferes with the fullest possible use of the recreational potential of our streams and rivers and, indeed, in some instances, can and does pose serious health problems. Communities with a high degree of soil and water pollution in their area are concerned about the health hazards that can result from this type of contamination.
The government's intention in introducing the legislation in December, 1960, was to help municipalities strike at the root of the problem by assisting them in providing proper sewage treatment facilities. I need hardly add the failure to provide adequate and sufficient treatment facilities would also interfere with the proper growth and development of a community and might also seriously restrict the provision of adequate housing in many parts of the country.
The lending program has been extremely successful. The 1960 amendment to the act enabled Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation to make loans for sewage treatment purposes up to an aggregate amount of $100 million. Last December, because of the number of applications already received, the government asked and obtained authorization from parliament to raise this ceiling to $200 million. Since the inception of the program in December, 1960, Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation has made 360 loans for a total of more than $85 million. In addition, at the end of November, 1962, the corporation had on hand applications or inquiries for 146 loans with a loan potential of $52.5 million.
Loans have been made to municipalities in every part of Canada and to communities of every size, from large metropolitan centres to rural municipalities of less than 1,000 population. Nearly 200 municipalities of less than 5,000 population, have been assisted under this program. Loans have also been made to 62 communities with populations of between 5,000 and 25,000 and to 36 cities with populations in excess of 25,000.
It is true the response has not been uniform in all parts of the country. Although loans have been made to municipalities in every province, the bulk of the lending has
National Housing Act
occurred in two or three provinces, notably Ontario and Saskatchewan. However, applications now on hand show a much wider interest in the use of these facilities. Many other municipalities have indicated their desire to institute effective programs for control of pollution in their area. We have been asked to extend the effective forgiveness date so that municipalities now coming forward with proposals will not be placed at a disadvantage in financing these works.
The government feels that, although we have made considerable progress so far in dealing with the pollution problem, much still remains to be done. Many municipalities face grievous problems and are becoming increasingly aware of the need to take remedial action and of the assistance they can obtain from the federal government. Moreover, it must also be recognized that in some areas and along some waterways not all municipalities have yet taken advantage of the legislation. Thus, although some individual towns and cities have undertaken construction of treatment plants to alleviate the problem in their immediate environment, this alone is not sufficient to restore the purity of the river itself. To do this, all municipalities-both upstream and downstream-must take steps to treat their sewage adequately. For these reasons the government is recommending this further amendment to the act.
Under the terms of the bill to be founded on this resolution, the expiry date will be extended to March 31, 1965 and municipalities will be able to take advantage of the 25 per cent rebate on principal and accrued interest, provided their projects are completed by that date. The rebate, of course, will also apply to projects still in course of construction at that time but the amount of forgiveness will be calculated on the work performed prior to March 31, 1965.
Mr. Chairman, when I say the expiry date will extend to March 31, 1965, that refers to the rebate provision which was to expire on March 31, 1963. The program itself, the loan program to municipalities, as I have explained before, by virtue of the 1960 amendment is a continuing feature of the National Housing Act and will continue whether or not portions of the loan are rebated.
It is clear that many municipalities with work now in hand will be unable to complete their projects by next March. Moreover, several communities are in the process of drawing up plans and specifications and will find it difficult to proceed with operations this winter unless they have some certainty as to the effective forgiveness date. I know hon. members will wish to see this vital

National Housing Act
work expedited, particularly during the offseason months when construction projects can provide substantial additional employment, and that they will consider the bill with the same sense of urgency matching that with which it has been introduced.
I also hope that hon. members will assist not only the government but their municipalities or their regions by drawing to the attention of all municipal and district councils the fact that the rebate provision has now been extended, and thus encourage their municipalities to take advantage of the loan provision as well as the rebate provision.


Mr. Garland:: Mr. Chairman, we on this side have been looking forward to the introduction of this legislation, because some of us were hoping to make contributions to the debate which would normally follow in connection with the National Housing Act and certain aspects of it which we feel could be improved and should be improved at this time. However, in order to co-operate with the government, and in the spirit we have seen during the last half hour in the house, we are willing to forgo that and say our position is exactly the same as I outlined it in the house on November 2 when the minister made the anouncement.
We are most anxious to do whatever we can to co-operate in facilitating the passage of this legislation through the house. Perhaps the minister himself recognizes one of the weaknesses of this particular legislation is the piecemeal aspect of it, covering a year or two at a time. The establishment of a municipal loan fund would enable municipalities which have projects urgently needing to be done to plan years in advance. The people are there to do these projects and we believe that the municipal loan fund, as suggested by my leader more than four years ago, is the answer to helping municipalities. However, I shall deal with that subject on another occasion. All I wish to say now is that we are pleased to co-operate in getting the legislation through the house this afternoon.


Murdo William Martin: Mr. Chairman, I would like to take just one moment also to applaud the extension that the minister has announced today. I believe this certainly shows a much more proper approach to this problem than we have seen in the past. I think the tremendous pressure for this extension that has been generated all across the country should prove to the minister and the government that you cannot deal with problems like this in the ad hoc way that has been used in the past. To do a proper job in this field it has to be done over a long period of time. You cannot expect a one-year program, with all the necessary planning and

preparatory work required, to be as successful as it will be now this extension has been made.
The minister mentioned the successful way in which this fund has been used in the past. I think further successes will be demonstrated over the next two years which will again prove to this government, or whatever government there might happen to be at that time, that this particular program and the method of carrying it out should be broadened and lengthened. It is something that could well become a permanent feature in projects of this nature. Mr. Chairman, I will not take up any more time of the committee. I am also imbued with what seems to be the spirit prevalent in this house today, to get on with the business.


Mr. Olson:: Mr. Chairman, we want to cooperate in expediting the passage of this bill. I wish to say to the committee, however, that this party has for years advocated a municipal development bank undertaken by the federal government through the Bank of Canada, and on an appropriate occasion we hope we can have an opportunity to explain our position fully in this regard.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Chairman, I should like to say a few words in order to keep a promise made to some constituents of mine. I shall be very brief. I may say, Mr. Chairman, that little did I think when I listened to the minister's father, who was then a minister in the provincial government of British Columbia, talk about public works-mostly roads at that time-that in 1962 in this house I would listen to his son, who was not then born.
The members of this group support the principle of this resolution and its purpose. We will have a great deal more to say at the appropriate time with respect to further amendments required to the housing act. I was interested in the minister's emphasis on the need to prevent pollution of rivers and the conservation of natural resources. I am sure we are all behind everything the government does in this respect. This also applies to the prevention of destruction of wildlife. Also, I hope he applies that principle to a very large river in my constituency and saves a great deal of the wildlife that is in imminent danger of destruction, if certain things occur.
I rise particularly to mention the plight of a number of small villages in my constituency-some 20 of them-some incorporated, some unincorporated. I presume the same problem occurs in other constituencies. These small villages are on numerous occasions denied the opportunity to obtain loans from the corporation on the ground that they have not

Canadian World Exhibition Corporation
a sewage disposal system. I understand the minister is giving serious consideration to this problem. There are many such villages in Canada, no doubt, which suffer an injustice under this type of ruling. I am going to give one illustration of a small village some few miles from my home. I refer to the village of Nakusp, one of the historic villages of British Columbia. There the site is excellent; there is a depth of 100 feet of sand upon which the village is situated. The drainage is excellent. Everything is ideal for the installation of septic tanks, and generally speaking the home owners have septic tanks. But some people have applied for loans in a subdivision which is an extension of the village and have been denied loans by Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation because there is no sewage disposal system.
Villages of this size will not for many years have the financial capacity to construct sewage systems, possibly for generations. I do urge reconsideration of these regulations so that where it can be proved that there is no hazard to water resources, to health and things of that sort, where the site, soil and drainage are satisfactory, these people living in the smaller places in Canada will have the same opportunity to obtain loans as those who live in the larger centres. That is all I have to say, Mr. Chairman.
Resolution reported and concurred in.
Mr. Fulton thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. C-102, to amend the National Housing Act, 1954.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: When shall the said bill be read a second time? By leave, now?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


John Whitney Pickersgill: By leave.


Edmund Davie Fulton: the second reading of the bill.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Chown in the chair.
On clause 1-Reduction of indebtedness where project completed on or before March 31, 1965.
Mr. McMillan:: Mr. Chairman, I would ask the minister whether there has been any change in the interest rate to the municipalities lately. What is the interest rate, and has there been any change?


Edmund Davie Fulton: Mr. Chairman, there has been no change in the interest rate charged to the municipalities. My recollection is that the rate is 5J per cent and we have authority to
continue that rate. I would just like to say one other thing, in view of what was said by the hon. member for Nipissing, I know in not a controversial sense, but it may be there is a misunderstanding elsewhere and therefore I would like to clear it up. The hon. member said the fact that we are introducing this amendment shows the necessity for having this on a continuing basis. May I emphasize again that the program is a permanent feature of the national housing legislation. There is now a provision, which will carry on on a permanent basis, for the making of loans to municipalities of two thirds of the capital costs of sewage treatment projects. The only temporary feature is the rebate provision, whereby certain portions of the loan are remitted. That is the only portion that is temporary and it is now extended to 1965 as an incentive to urge municipalities to get a good start on these undertakings.


John Richard Garland: Mr. Chairman, without in any way wishing to impede the progress we are making, I would say that it was not a misunderstanding in regard to the legislation. I was saying that the establishment of a municipal loan fund to provide assistance in connection with capital costs through long term, low interest rates, as suggested four years ago by this party, is a better answer to this problem of helping the municipalities, because not only are sewage projects required but there is a shelf of projects of all kinds that could be undertaken by the municipalities. People continue to be unemployed and many of them could be doing this kind of work.


[Stage Direction]
Clause agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported.
The Depuiy Speaker: When shall the bill be read the third time? By consent, now?
Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Edmund Davie Fulton: the third reading of the bill.
Motion agreed to and bill read the third time and passed.



CANADIAN WORLD EXHIBITION CORPORATION


Gordon Minto Churchill: At this stage when there are just a few minutes remaining to us there is an item of business to be dealt with which is of great interest to the house generally. It is the resolution in Votes and Proceedings dealing with the proposal concerning the Canadian
2844	HOUSE OF
Canadian World Exhibition Corporation World Exhibition Corporation looking forward to the world's fair. If the house will consider this resolution now and carry it to first reading, the bill could be distributed after the adjournment and would be available for consideration in the other stages tomorrow.
We have about 15 minutes left to us now and if the sponsor of the resolution could introduce it and leave a little time for one spokesman from each party to say a few words as we could perhaps have first reading by six o'clock.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I am sorry but I do not
think we can agree to that proposal by the leader of the house. We can, however, make an alternative suggestion which I think is very much better. That is the one which the four parties have discussed. I think we should proceed without any debate at all to the first reading of this bill right away so that the bill might be available overnight. Then the minister and anyone else who is interested could make speeches on second reading. It seems to me there is no quarrel on the principle of holding a world's fair and we would be very glad if all parties would agree to this suggestion. My hon. friend from Laurier was to have spoken on this matter, and there was no agreement that it would be debated today. But if the minister would like to get his bill distributed, and if everybody agrees to bring the bill to that stage, we would be happy to co-operate.
We would then be able to go back into committee of supply and it might be possible to complete supply by six o'clock. It would certainly give anyone who wished to speak for the government a chance to speak.


Mr. Sevigny:: In view of the urgency of getting this magnificent project under way I certainly would be agreeable to the suggestion made by the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate that first reading be given now without debate.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Inasmuch as unanimous consent is required in order that this motion, which has not yet reached the order paper, may be moved, we are prepared to give that consent in order that the resolution may be put through, with or without debate. Then the bill could be read a first time and printed.


Mr. Patterson:: As far as the Social Credit group is concerned, that would be satisfactory and we would go along with the suggestion.


Gordon Minto Churchill: With regard to the other proposal put forward by the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate, there was no discussion or agreement about reverting to supply immediately the other matter has gone


through. There was no consultation with regard to that. The suggestion that supply might be concluded in the next five or ten minutes lacks credibility, I am afraid. Of course, we would like to complete supply but hon. gentlemen opposite did not inform me of that possibility at two o'clock today.


Paul Joseph James Martin: We want to get on with the job.


Gordon Minto Churchill: If the house wishes to consider them I shall bring forward two small items which might be dealt with. There is, for example, the Coal Production Act-


John Whitney Pickersgill: I think we ought to go back to supply. Of course, we do not want to tell the government what to do in these matters. If they do not want to go back into supply they can bring forward any measure they like. However, we, for our part, would like to go back to supply. We stand by our offer to put through this Montreal matter without debate, but not with debate, to the stage of first reading of the bill.


Gordon Minto Churchill: I agree, then, to proceed with the world's fair proposition without debate and to get first reading. Then we would carry on with it tomorrow. But I would then ask the house to give consideration to the Coal Production Act as the next item.


Alexander Bell Patterson: When I said we were prepared to go along with the suggestion made, I was speaking of this particular measure. I did not have it in mind that we would proceed with any other particular item.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Let us get on with this resolution and then see where we are.


Joseph Pierre Albert Sévigny: that the house go into committee to consider the following resolution which has been recommended to the house by His Excellency.
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to establish a Canadian World Exhibition Corporation and to provide for the appointment of its directors and staff; to provide that the Minister of Finance may, out of the consolidated revenue fund, pay to the corporation by way of grant such amounts not exceeding twenty million dollars as are required for the purposes of the corporation; to provide also that the governor in council may authorize the Minister of Finance on behalf of Her Majesty to enter into a joint guarantee with Her Majesty in right of the province of Quebec of the principal amount of any securities issued by the corporation and of the interest thereon in such form and subject to such terms and conditions as may be approved by the governor in council and the lieutenant governor in council of Quebec; to provide further for temporary loans to the corporation out of the consolidated revenue fund, the aggregate of which loans outstanding at any time shall not exceed one million dollars: and to provide further for other related and incidental matters.

Motion agreed to and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Chown in the chair.
Resolution reported and concurred in.
Mr. Sevigny thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. C-103 to establish the Canadian World Exhibition Corporation.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I should like to make another appeal to the leader of the house to go back into committee of supply.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Item No. 5 on the order paper.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Don't you want to pass supply?


Donald Methuen Fleming: You are very
helpful.



COAL PRODUCTION ASSISTANCE ACT


[Stage Direction]
The house in committee on Bill No. C-64, to amend the Coal Production Assistance Act -Mr. Martineau-Mr. Chown in the chair.
Clauses 1 to 3 inclusive agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.


[Stage Direction]
The house in committee on Bill C-91, to amend the Freight Rates Reduction Act-Mr. Balcer-Mr. Chown in the chair.
On clause 1-Extension of time. (Translation):
Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Chairman, at the outset of my remarks on this bill, I wish to point out that in the committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines, they managed to rush the bill through Monday morning. In fact, the committee met at 9.30 a.m. and at 9.32 a.m. the bill had been rushed through although the members had not had time to get there. Things were rushed because it was realized that there was increasing objections to the government interfering with the trucking private enterprise.
Indeed, it was mentioned in the committee that the C.N.R. received each year quite substantial grants to reduce its freight rates while at the same time it entered into competition with private trucking companies.
Freight Rates Reduction Act
That is a strange way of spending public funds. Money is taken from the Canadian taxpayer's pocket and handed over to a crown corporation which uses it to compete with private enterprise.
Mr. Chairman, we protest of course against that policy, all the more since the C.N.R. has entered that field, in the province of Quebec, without securing a permit from the Quebec transport board. And what does the C.N.R. say in reply to such facts? Here it is: We went into that field; proceedings were taken against us before the courts of the province of Qubec; let us wait and see what the courts will decide.
In my opinion, when the federal government allows the C.N.R. to do that, it sets a bad precedent.
Mr. Chairman, if all the citizens of Canada were to say: Let us disobey the law, let us try to get around it; if we do not get caught, we will continue. Or else, if they said: Let us try and disobey the law, whatever it is, and even if the courts rule that we are doing wrong, we will have benefited from it during two years.
That is exactly what the C.N.R. is doing now with its trucking business in the province of Quebec. It never obtained any permit from the transport board, but it operates that business none the less.
What would you think of a private firm which would start operating a television station without having obtained a licence from the board of broadcast governors and which would say: "If we do not get a licence, we shall stop operations", while keeping on with its broadcasts. It would be surprising to see how quickly the board of broadcast governors would put a stop to such proceedings.
Under this bill, we go further than that. The people's money is given to the C.N.R. to enable it to violate the law in the province of Quebec by entering into competition with private business.
I think that the members of parliament cannot, in all conscience, vote funds to that end. That is why we are opposed to the principle of voting money to help the C.N.R. compete with the very people from whom those funds are collected. After all, this money is taken in the form of taxes from the trucking companies in the province of Quebec and handed out to the C.N.R. so that it can compete with those same companies.

Freight Rates Reduction Act
We have always claimed that this was socialism.
Mr. Chairman, socialist policy consists in imposing taxes on the people to enable the government to go into business, and once in business, it taxes the people in order to make up its own deficits. Such is socialism.
We are again asked today to vote money in order to help the government compete with private enterprise, whether such competition is illegal or not. Indeed, the C.N.R. is doing just that at present in the province of Quebec.
And we are expected to keep on voting money for the government and to take that money away from the taxpayers. We are entirely against it.
Mr. Chairman, we agreed to hasten adoption of the preceding bills, but as far as this one is concerned, we are definitely against it. If we think of what this has permitted in the past, more precisely a constant interference by the government in fields where private enterprise is doing very well, we are surely not to be expected now to help make things worse.
Mr. Chairman, legislation like this one is being passed, and we are told that they are just temporary measures for a period of only 12 months. After 12 months, we are asked again to extend their application. After a further period of 12 months, the same thing happens over again. As a matter of fact, the situation keeps repeating itself.
For how many years shall we have to vote public funds to make up the C.N.R. deficits, in addition to the $65 million this company is already getting, without mentioning the $50 million which were passed at full speed the other day?
Today we are asked to vote $25 million. Those amounts are all for the C.N.R. How long will this be kept up.
Mr. Chairman, first we must put some order in the administration of the C.N.R., otherwise, similar measures will keep coming before us.
Mr. Chairman, I believe it is six o'clock. Do you wish that I continue or should we call it six o'clock?
(Text):


Gordon Campbell Chown: Order. It being six o'clock-


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, if a few minutes would enable the hon. gentleman to

complete his remarks and we could pass this bill, it might be worth while letting him continue.
(Translation) :


Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Chairman, I must say that this will take at least an hour and a half, two hours or even more.
(Text):


John Whitney Pickersgill: Who is holding up the business now?


Gordon Campbell Chown: Shall I rise, report progress, and request leave to sit again at the next sitting of the house?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
Clause 1 stands.
Progress reported.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: At five o'clock the chairman of the committee of supply rose without obtaining leave for the committee to sit again. In order to complete that procedural requirement, the house will now resume the business which was interrupted at five o'clock.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Chown in the chair.



INTERIM SUPPLY

[Stage Direction]
Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $330,089,511.93 being the aggregate of-
(a)	one twelfth of the total of the amounts of the items set forth in the revised estimates for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1963, laid before the House of Commons at the present session of parliament, except atomic energy item 5, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation item 5, finance items 45 and 50, forestry item 11, labour item 40, legislation items 30 and 35, mines and technical surveys items 30, 35, 40, 70, 80, 125 and 130, national defence item 70, national health and welfare item 25, northern affairs and national resources items 10, 45 and 90, public works items 5, 45, 70, 100, 105, 125, 145, 168, 170, 180, 190 and 200, Royal Canadian Mounted Police items 5, 15 and 25, transport items 35, 40. 60, 80, 85, 100, 125, 222 and 225, loans investments and advances item L20 $292,175,958;
(b)	an additional one twelfth of the amounts of defence production item 25, external affairs item 5, northern affairs and national resources item 105, of the said revised estimates, $1,842,041.67;
(c)	one twelfth of the total of the amounts of the items set forth in the supplementary estimates
(A)	for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1963, except external affairs item 112a, transport items 213a and 222a, $8,738,178.92;
(d)	ten twelfths of the total of the amounts of the items set forth in the supplementary estimates
(B)	for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1963, $27,333,333.34,
be granted to Her Majesty on account of the present fiscal year ending March 31, 1963.
Progress reported.

John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, in view of the harmony and co-operation that have been manifest this afternoon-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


John Whitney Pickersgill: -could the house leader indicate what the government hopes to accomplish tomorrow and the order in which it hopes to accomplish it?


Gordon Minto Churchill: The most important piece of business tomorrow, after we take third reading of the bill based on the resolution which is No. 21 on today's order paper is, of course, interim supply, so that we can get the appropriation bill through and have the other house consider it. By long odds that is the most important. The second item to which we would like to give our attention is the
Business of the House
bill based on the resolution pertaining to the world's fair. If time permits, other items of business will be called accordingly, but there will be a chance tomorrow to consult and see what progress we are making.


John Whitney Pickersgill: 1 just want to make sure that I understand clearly and that the house does. I understand that third reading of the bill respecting the Federal-Provincial Fiscal Arrangements Act will be taken first; then we will go into committee of supply and take supply until that is completed, and then take the Montreal bill.


Gordon Minto Churchill: That is correct-the world's fair bill.


[Stage Direction]
It being five minutes after six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[Stage Direction]
Thursday, December 20, 1962