1962-03-21

Mr. Speaker:: I have the honour to inform the house that 1 have received the following communication:
Government House, Ottawa, March 21, 1962
Sir:
I have the honour to inform you that the Honourable Robert Taschereau, judge of the Supreme Court of Canada, acting as Deputy to His Excellency the Governor General, will proceed to the Senate chamber on Friday, the 23rd March, at 5.45 p.m., for the purpose of giving the royal assent to certain bills.
I have the honour to be, sir,
Your obedient servant,
Col. A. G. Cherrier,
Assistant Secretary to the Governor General UNITED NATIONS



TABLING OF CANADA'S REPLY TO INQUIRY RESPECTING SWEDISH RESOLUTION

Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, the government has replied to the inquiry received from the secretary general of the United Nations relating to general assembly resolution No. 1664, XVI, commonly referred to as the Swedish resolution. The reply was contained in a note from the acting permanent representative of Canada to the United Nations to the United Nations secretary general, U Thant, and was delivered this morning. I should like now to have this communication tabled for the information of hon. members.


Mr. Speaker:: Has the Prime Minister leave to table the document to which he has referred?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.



QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. Badanai: In view of considerable interest shown by Canadians favouring the adoption by Canada of the
metric system of measurements instead of the English system, has the government given any consideration to the proposal, or has the government any intention of doing so?
Answer by: Mr. Morris:
The government is aware of the interest expressed from time to time in the adoption by Canada of the metric system of measurements in place of the inch/pound system. The proposal is of course met in part by the fact that metric is already a legal system in Canada and may be used by anyone who finds it beneficial so to do. At such time as it appears that the adoption of metric as the sole system would be advantageous to Canada as a whole, consideration would be given to such change.
^CANADIAN CAR CO.-PRODUCTION OF BOBCAT VEHICLE

Question No. 297-Mr. Fisher:
1.	Did the then minister of public works and the Minister of Defence Production meet a delegation from the lakehead in April 1959 (April 8 and 9) regarding the future of the Canadian Car Company plant in Fort William; and, if so, (a) did discussions take place regarding the possibility or probability of having an order placed at the plant in the future for the construction of an armoured fighting vehicle called the "Bobcat" (b) was any estimate given the delegation of an approximate time sequence in the development of the "Bobcat" and the initiation of firm tenders for its construction (c) what problems or difficulties have arisen since 1959 to throw awry such a schedule?
2.	If not, is there any likelihood now of the government giving consideration to putting the "Bobcat" into full production and directing any of the production to the Fort William plant?


Mr. O'Hurley:: 1.	A meeting was held with a delegation from the lakehead in April, 1959 at which the future of the Canadian Car Company plant in Fort William was discussed.
(a)	Yes.
(b)	and (c) No realistic date could be given concerning volume production at this point as the Bobcat was still in the development stage. A prototype was completed in October of 1960 and following user trials it was decided to embark on a further product improvement phase.
2.	When the current contract has been completed it is intended that competitive tenders will be invited for the volume requirement.

Questions


* SMUGGLING BY ARMED FORCES PERSONNEL IN INDO-CHINA
Mr. Heriidge: 1.	Have any members of the armed forces of Canada been found guilty of smuggling gold and/or opium in, to or from Indo-China since 1954?
2.	If so, (a) what are their names, ranks, and present military status (b) what was the charge or what were the charges on which each was found guilty (c) what was the punishment in each case?


Mr. Harkness:: The answers are as follows:
1.	Prior to 1961 no charges were laid against any members of the armed forces of Canada relating to alleged smuggling of gold and or opium in, to or from Indo-China. In late 1961 and in early 1962 three persons were charged and convicted summarily in Indo-China. Charges are pending against some other servicemen in respect of the 1961 incidents.
2.	(a): Sgt. J. M. Champagne, Sgt. W. B. Gaebel and Cpl. A. J. Hill, (b) and (c): Each was convicted under section 118 of the National Defence Act, conduct to the prejudice of good order and discipline. Each was sentenced to a fine of $100 and a severe reprimand and returned to Canada. Consideration is now being given to their compulsory release from the service.


POST OFFICE CONSTRUCTION, REVENUE RANGE $40,000-$60,000
Mr. Benidickson: 1.	At what localities has the government constructed or provided estimates for the construction of new public buildings to accommodate post offices where annual postal revenues prior thereto had been within the range $40,000 to $60,000 for the five fiscal years 1958-59 to 1962-63 inclusive?
2.	What was the actual or anticipated capital cost for each such building (a) for land (b) for building and equipment?
Answer by: Mr. Walker:
1.	Ottawa, postal station "E"; Richmond Hill, Ontario; Stoney Creek, Ontario; Roxboro (formerly St. Genevieve), Quebec.
2.	(a) Cost of land:
Ottawa postal station "E" .... $64,302 Richmond Hill, Ontario .... 40,000
Stoney Creek, Ontario	 24,100
Roxboro (St. Genevieve),
Quebec	 17,500
(b) For building and equipment:
Ottawa postal station "E"-
contract cost	$301,441.13
lock boxes and fittings ..	755.00
302,196.13
Richmond Hill, Ontariocontract cost	 171,118.12
lock boxes and fittings .	1,400.00
172,518.12
Stoney Creek, Ontariocontract cost	 79,632.85
lock boxes and fittings ..	212.00
79,844.85
Roxboro (St. Genevieve),
Quebec-1962-63
(estimate) ..	105,000



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


CANADIAN EMBASSY IN FRANCE


Mr. Regier: 1.	What are the names and positions held by each of the people attached to, or assigned to, work with our Canadian embassy in France since January 1, 1954?
2.	What were the periods of such responsibilities given there to each such person?
3.	Which of these people received promotions during said period of service, and what are the details of each of these promotions?
4.	Which of these people are not now in the employ of the federal government, and what was the reason for termination of service in each case?



TRENT WATERWAY WATER FLOW

Mr. Piiman: What has been the volume of water passing through the Trent waterway at the nearest point to the city of Peterborough in each month, of each year, since 1950?


Mr. Martini:: Tabled herewith.



APPLICATIONS FOR SUMMER EMPLOYMENT, COMPETITION 62-50

Mr. Pitman: 1.	How many applications were received for summer employment under competition 62-50 of the civil service commission?
2.	Who were the successful candidates, and in which electoral districts are each resident?
3.	Were any representations made on behalf of any of the successful candidates: and, if so, by whom?
4.	What were the academic qualifications of each of the successful candidates?



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS

[Stage Direction]
1952 ST. LAWRENCE SHIP CANAL AND MONTREAL HARBOUR COMMITTEE REPORT
Motion No. 28-Mr. Fisher:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of the recommendations of the St. Lawrence ship channel and Montreal harbour committee (1950) report on the fourth item of terms of reference dated October 1, 1952.
Mr. Balcer:: The document referred to in this motion is an interdepartmental document, and as it is the long established practice of the house that such interdepartmental documents are not tabled I would ask my hon. friend whether he would be willing to withdraw the motion.


Mr. Fisher:: I understood from a conversation I had with someone in the department some months ago that the document had been revealed to the Americans in the preliminary negotiations regarding the seaway. It was for that reason I assumed that because it had been opened to them it would be available to the house. If the minister can assure me that it is strictly an interdepartmental document I shall be only too pleased to withdraw the motion.


Léon Balcer: This motion is non-debatable, and I stand on what I said earlier.


Mr. Speaker:: Does the hon. member wish to proceed with the motion?


Douglas Mason Fisher: No.
Order discharged and motion withdrawn.



ARGENTIA FERRY SERVICE

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 29-Mr. Pickersgill:
That an humble address he presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to he laid before this house a copy of any communication addressed to the premier of Newfoundland or any member of the government of Newfoundland by the Minister of Transport since January 1, 1962, regarding the proposed ferry service to Argentia, together with any replies thereto.
Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker, there is no objection to this motion, subject to the usual reservation as far as obtaining the agreement of the province is concerned.


Mr. Speaker:: Subject to the reservation expressed by the minister, is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion?


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 30-Mr. Fisher:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all correspondence exchanged between the Minister of Transport and persons, other than Department of Transport officials, who have been in touch with him regarding improvements in facilities at the lakehead airport.
Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker, there is no objection to this motion, with the understanding, as agreed to by the mover, that the correspondence to be produced will date back to January 1, 1961.


Mr. Speaker:: Subject to the reservation expressed by the minister, is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion?


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 31
Douglas Mason Fisher: That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all correspondence of any kind between the Minister of Public Works and anyone interested in developing a new post office at Longlac, Ontario.
26207-1-129
Motions for Papers


Mr. Walker:: Mr. Speaker, this motion is acceptable, subject to the usual reservation of privileged and confidential correspondence.


Mr. Speaker:: Subject to the limitations expressed by the Minister of Public Works, is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion?


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 32-Mr. Benidickson:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all correspondence since January 1, 1960, of any kind between the Postmaster General and/or the Minister of Public Works and anyone interested in enlarging the post office at Dryden, Ontario, or relating to a proposal that the Dryden post office be relocated.
David James Walker: Mr. Speaker, I am informed that there has been no correspondence with either of the departments, and in those circumstances would the hon. member for Kenora-Rainy River wish to withdraw his motion?


Mr. Benidickson:: Agreed.


Mr. Speaker:: Withdrawn.
Order discharged and motion withdrawn.
ECONOMIC FORECAST FOR CURRENT YEAR Motion No. 33-Mr. Pickersgill:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of the latest economic forecast prepared in the Department of Trade and Commerce in the series substituted for the Canadian Economic Outlook as described in Hansard for August 10, 1960 at page 7878.


Mr. Hees:: Stand.


Mr. Pickersgill:: Mr. Speaker, since the minister is not prepared to proceed with this motion at once I would ask you to have it transferred to notices of motions, papers, so that it may be debated.


Mr. Speaker:: Pursuant to standing orders this motion is transferred to the heading notices of motions, papers.



HALIFAX TELEVISION PROGRAM &quot;YOUTH WANTS TO KNOW&quot;

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 34-Mr. Pickersgill:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of all correspondence since October 1,	1961, between the board of
broadcast governors on the one hand and any other person on the other, respecting a program on television station CJCH-TV Halifax, entitled "Youth Wants to Know".
Mr. Nowlan:: The motion is acceptable, Mr. Speaker.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
Inquiries of the Ministry POWER

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. L. B. Pearson (Leader of ihe Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Prime Minister, in view of certain statements that have been made in recent days, whether he can give the house an assurance that the Columbia river development treaty with the United States will not be ratified until it has been discussed and approved in this house.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. gentleman is fully aware of the fact that ratification by this house is necessary.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Ratification is an executive action.



CORRESPONDENCE WITH PROVINCES RESPECTING NATIONAL GRID

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, on Monday I asked the Prime Minister if he could ascertain whether he had any correspondence with the provincial governments about the power grid that had not been tabled, and the hon. gentleman said he would look into the matter and table the correspondence if there were any.


John George Diefenbaker: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I did not say I would table it, I said I would make it available. However, I tabled it yesterday.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, on a question of privilege, in the Prime Minister's absence yesterday I put a question about this matter to either of his parliamentary secretaries, and they professed a most total ignorance about it. One sometimes wonders what they are paid their salaries for.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member's point does not constitute a question of privilege.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, may I say there is no reason for the hon. gentleman to show his ignorance, either.
[Later:}


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I should like to raise a point of order with respect to the documents which were tabled yesterday by the Prime Minister. I have in my hands Votes and Proceedings for yesterday which I have now looked at, since the Prime Minister drew attention to what he was pleased in his courteous way to call my ignorance.


John George Diefenbaker: I think that was factual.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I read the following from
Votes and Proceedings for yesterday:
The following papers having been deposited with the Clerk of the house were laid upon the table pursuant to standing order 40, namely:
By Mr. Diefenbaker, a member of the Queen's privy council,-Exchange of correspondence between the Prime Minister of Canada and provincial premiers concerning the federal-provincial meeting of ministers on March 19, 1962, regarding the problems of the generation and transmission of electrical energy throughout Canada (national power grid).
I draw Your Honour's attention to standing order 40 which reads as follows:
Any return, report or other paper required to be laid before the house in accordance with any act of parliament or in pursuance of any resolution or standing order of this house may be deposited with the Clerk of the house on any sitting day, and such return, report or other paper shall be deemed for all purposes to have been presented to or laid before the house.
This correspondence was not laid before the house pursuant to a return. It was not a report or other paper required to be laid before the house in accordance with any act of parliament. It was something that was asked for and that could only be tabled, as I have heard Your Honour ask so often, by leave of the house in the proper way on the orders of the day.


Mr. Mcllraiih:: Following the proper procedure.


John Whitney Pickersgill: It seems to me that we should not become slipshod about the observance of the rules of the house. Moreover, sir, I think I have a question of privilege. I had asked the Prime Minister in a very courteous way-


Mr. Speaker:: Order.


John Whitney Pickersgill: -to have this correspondence made available.


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member is now adverting to an exchange which I suggest might be forgotten, as it does not raise a point of order. The point of order he raises is one that may properly be considered. I am advised by the Clerk that he took the responsibility of dealing with the documents in the way he did, exercising his discretion as to the category into which they fell. Apparently his view is not in accord with that of the hon. member, but that is the explanation of the treatment that the documents received.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I would ask Your Honour to take the point under advisement.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I think the simplest way out would be to withdraw them altogether, and that would satisfy the hon. gentleman. The day before yesterday I agreed

to do this and what I said is very clear. I said, as found on page 1923 of Hansard:
-I will have the matter looked into and if there are any such letters they will be made available tomorrow.
In my absence yesterday for part of the day the hon. gentleman raised the question, as found on page 1968 of Hansard. Because of my undertaking I filed the correspondence on my return. Trying to be courteous I now receive criticism from the hon. gentleman for it. I hope I will not do anything in the future that will allow him to speak of courtesy as discourtesy.


George James McIlraith: Just follow the rules and you will be in no trouble.


John George Diefenbaker: Will the hon. gentleman kindly maintain silence.


George James McIlraith: No. Such arrogance from the Prime Minister.



REQUEST FOR REPORT ON NATIONAL GRID CONFERENCE

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Harold E. Winch (Vancouver East):: Mr. Speaker, I wonder whether I could direct a question to the Prime Minister and hope he is in a position to give me an answer. As a result of the conference, which is most important to Canada, concerning the national power grid, with which I am in complete agreement, is the Prime Minister in a position to give this house any information as to what will transpire should one of the provinces remain outside?


Mr. Speaker:: I rather think the hon. member's question is not one that is the responsibility of the federal administration, as it relates to the absence from the conference of one of the provinces. If the hon. member is seeking a general opinion as to the effect of the absence of that province, I think that is a matter that would be more appropriately one for debate rather than for orders of the day.


Harold Edward Winch: I am not approaching it from that position, Mr. Speaker. I go along with the proposal of the Prime Minister for a national power grid across Canada. I am asking whether he can give any information as to the effect of a middle province remaining outside of the grid.


Mr. Speaker:: I believe what I have said is an appropriate answer to the question.
26207-1-129J
Inquiries of the Ministry LABOUR CONDITIONS



SYDNEY MINES, N.S.    WORKING CONDITIONS OF FREIGHT HANDLERS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. J. Robichaud (Gloucester):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Transport. Can the minister advise the house whether he has received any representation from Hugh Bushne, regional secretary of Sydney Mines, Princess local union U.M.W. protesting against conditions affecting employees of the Northside freight handlers' association which are termed as "nothing short of scandalous".


Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker, I had not received this message before I left my office, but I will verify that with my staff.



ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. W. Herridge (Kootenay West):: wish to address a question to the Prime Minister. Has the Prime Minister received a letter dated March 19 from His Worship the mayor of Trail, Mr. J. Palyga, stating that the city council urges that the federal and provincial governments establish a royal commission to explore all facets of the outbreaks of violence in the Kootenays attributed to a minority group? If so, could the Prime Minister inform the house whether he will give consideration to establishing this suggested royal commission, with a view to developing a policy which will provide for federal-provincial co-operation in the administration of a constructive and effective solution to this long standing problem?


John George Diefenbaker: I have received a letter from the mayor dated March 19. In that letter he states:
My council has formulated a resolution regarding this situation which I shall be passing on to you, possibly tomorrow.
That resolution has not yet been received.



SONS OF FREEDOM


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Speaker, I wish to ask the Prime Minister another question on a strictly non-partisan basis. Has the Prime Minister received a letter from Mr. T. A. McRae, chairman of the Kootenay and boundary citizen's committee on Doukhobor-Canadian affairs, a committee representative of all parties and upon

Inquiries of the Ministry which there are a number of respected and in some cases distinguished members of the Prime Minister's party, asking that, since the provincial and federal governments cannot agree on a plan to bring troops to the Kootenays, the federal and provincial governments share equally the financial losses of labour and management caused by acts of terrorism? If so, will the Prime Minister inform the house whether he is giving consideration to this request?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I have not had an opportunity yet to ascertain whether or not such a letter has been received. However, when it is an answer will be given to the hon. gentleman's question. I point out that in this question appear these words, "since the provincial and federal governments cannot agree on a plan to bring troops to the Kootenays". That statement does not represent the situation at all. The Canadian government can only make troops available provided there is compliance with the National Defence Act. We have expressed our views over and over again in letters to the mayor of Trail and to others indicating that we share the anxiety and concern over the outbreak of lawlessness on the part of the Sons of Freedom Doukhobors, and that when a request is made under the National Defence Act no delay will take place in providing the necessary troops requested by the attorney general.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Speaker, I should like to explain to the Prime Minister that I was using the language of the release.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. It is not necessary to explain questions after they have been answered.



DEFENCE PRODUCTION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Harold Edward Winch: wish to address a question to the Minister of Defence Production. Is the minister in a position to inform the house of the present situation arising from negotiations in which his department is concerned in relation to a possible change from a Pratt and Whitney engine to a C.G.E. engine to replace that formerly decided upon as suitable for the CL-41? If so, is a recommendation being prepared for the consideration of treasury board?


Hon. Raymond O'Hurley (Minister of Defence Production):: The CL-41 jet trainer was equipped with a Pratt and Whitney engine. Bids were called for from the engine

companies, and those bids have been forwarded to the Department of Defence Production where they are being studied at the present time; in fact there was a meeting this morning on the value and prices of the two engines. However, no decision has been reached, and no recommendation has been sent to treasury board to date.


Harold Edward Winch: A supplementary question. Could the minister inform the house when the recommendation is likely to be made to treasury board?


Raymond Joseph Michael O'Hurley: As soon as the officials of treasury board, the Department of National Defence and the Department of Defence Production have finished their meetings and a proposition comes to my office, recommendations will be made to treasury board. I cannot say when that will be.



AGRICULTURE


[Stage Direction]
On the order of the day:
Mr. Samuel Boulanger (Drummond-Arihabaska):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture, or in his absence to his parliamentary secretary. Because of the serious losses incurred as a result of the drought last summer, is it the intention of the government to provide for emergency credit in order to help the western farmers put in the crop this spring?


Mr. W. H. Jorgenson (Parliameniary Secretary to the Minister of Agriculture):: These matters are under consideration.
(Translation):


Samuel Boulanger: Mr. Speaker, I have a further question to put to the Minister of Agriculture and in his absence, I shall direct it to his parliamentary secretary.
Does the government intend to put before the house, before dissolution of parliament, farm legislation concerning the urgent problem facing the dairy industry?


Douglas Scott Harkness: This matter, as the hon. member knows, has been the subject of a great deal of consultation with people in the dairy industry, and an announcement will be made in connection with it fairly soon.

Inquiries of the Ministry
UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE	FINANCE



REQUEST FOR NUMBER OF CLAIMANTS RECEIVING BENEFITS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. P. Deschatelets (Maisonneuve-Rose-mont):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Labour arising out of an undertaking given by his parliamentary secretary, as reported at page 1937 of Hansard, with respect to the latest figures for the number of claimants receiving unemployment insurance benefits. Is the minister in a position to provide us with this information?


Hon. Michael Starr (Minister of Labour):: Mr. Speaker, I shall be glad to provide the information if the hon. member would put that question on the order paper.


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, may I state that as reported at page 1937 of Hansard of March 19 the parliamentary secretary said:
I do not have that information here but I will be glad to secure it for the hon. member.
The parliamentary secretary was replying to a question put to him by the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate. I believe we are entitled to that information.


Mr. Speaker:: The minister has not suggested that he will not supply the information. He has indicated that it is statistical and that he would prefer to have the question in writing.


John Whitney Pickersgill: On a question of privilege, Mr. Speaker, I think the minister himself misunderstood what happened, because he was not present at the time of the exchange. During the course of the consideration of the estimates the minister's parliamentary secretary undertook to make this information available. I do not think an hon. member should be asked, after that undertaking, to go to the trouble and inconvenience of putting a question on the order paper. I am sure the parliamentary secretary would be only too glad to supply the information.


Mr. R. D. Thrasher (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Labour):: Mr. Speaker, on the question of privilege, that question was put to me and I assured the hon. member that I would obtain that information for him. There has been no suggestion here that I would not.


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Before dissolution?


Mr. Speaker:: Order.



INQUIRY AS TO ESTABLISHMENT OF PEGGED RATE FOR DOLLAR

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. John R. Matheson (Leeds):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Finance arising from an article appearing in the March 20, 1962 issue of the Globe and Mail entitled "Dollar in Wonderland". Is the minister giving any consideration to establishing a pegged rate?


Hon. Donald M. Fleming (Minister of Finance):: Mr. Speaker, I have answered questions on this subject with regularity at this session, I think every other day. There is nothing new to say or announce on this subject. The house has been kept well informed on the very striking success of the government's policy in relation to the external value of the Canadian dollar.



EUROPEAN COMMON MARKET


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Harold Edward Winch: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Prime Minister. Is the Prime Minister in a position to inform the house with regard to any views or opinions he expressed at a meeting in Montreal as to the necessity of a conference of the prime ministers of the commonwealth nations relative to the entrance of the United Kingdom into the European common market? Is he in a position to give us any additional information beyond that contained in the press?
Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prime
Minister): Mr. Speaker, what I stated was this, that the matter of the entry of the United Kingdom into the common market had such political and economic implications that before a final decision was made there should be a commonwealth prime ministers' conference. That view is one I hold very strongly, believing as I do in the strength of the commonwealth and its maintenance, and I hope that view will be shared by other members of the commonwealth.


Harold Edward Winch: A supplementary question. In view of the statement made yesterday by the Prime Minister in Montreal, has he been in recent communication with the United Kingdom requesting a conference of the commonwealth prime ministers?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I would hope that the hon. gentleman would not press that question at this time. The desire

Inquiries of the Ministry of the Canadian government is known, but the communications that pass between the prime ministers relative to questions that are under consideration are generally regarded as confidential until some decision is made thereon.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Harold Edward Winch: I should like to address a question to the Prime Minister, and I do so with all deference. In recent days and weeks there has been a great deal of stumbling and fumbling-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. If the hon. member has a question will he please ask it, instead of delivering himself of observations about what has happened in the last few weeks.


Harold Edward Winch: It is because of what has happened in the past few weeks that I wish to direct a question to the Prime Minister. I wish to ask him whether through the house leader there could be negotiations and discussions with the leaders of all parties so that we can proceed with the business of the house without the problems and the loss of time that have taken place in the past few weeks. Would the Prime Minister agree to a meeting among the leader of the house, the Leader of the Opposition and our leader with respect to the business of parliament?


John George Diefenbaker: I do not think any amount of consultation among those three would in any way solve the situation. After all-I am not speaking to the hon. gentleman, but to some members not too far removed-it is the hon. gentlemen directly opposite to whom that question might be directed.


EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. R. J. McCleave (Halifax):: I should like to direct a question to the Prime Minister. Would the right hon. gentleman consider making available to the house, as an appendix to Hansard, the very excellent speech of the Secretary of State for External Affairs given this week in Geneva?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, that it was a very excellent speech I am sure members of the house without regard to party will agree. It has received very general approval. If

the house is prepared to accept the suggestion of the hon. member I will be pleased to accede to his wishes.


Lester Bowles Pearson: I think it would be a very good thing indeed to have this speech of the Secretary of State for External Affairs at the disarmament conference appear in Hansard.


Mr. Speaker:: Is it agreed that this speech in question be printed as an appendix to Hansard today?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Mr. Speaker:: I take it that a copy will be supplied by the Prime Minister.
[Editor's note: For text of speech above referred to see appendix to Hansard for March 22, 1962.]



INDUSTRY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hédard-J. Robichaud: May I
direct a question to the Minister of Fisheries, who may take this question as notice if he is not prepared to reply. Can the minister advise the house if a decision has been reached by his department with regard to granting permission to Brunswick Mining and Smelting to proceed with the pumping of water from the mine shaft of the Brunswick mine, so this mining company can carry on with the operation of the mine?


Hon. J. A. MacLean (Minister of Fisheries):: I will provide an answer for the hon. member as soon as possible.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Mar-tineau in the chair.
DEPARTMENT OF MINES AND TECHNICAL SURVEYS Administration services-
Departmental administration-
637. Administration, operation and maintenance- further amount required, $65,000.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Before we begin a discussion of this item I should like to say, since this is the first time the new minister has appeared before the house with his estimates, that we will treat him with the customary courtesy accorded a new minister. I think, sir, it would greatly facilitate that treatment if the minister could, in accordance with the rules in committee, occupy one of the front benches where he would be relatively accessible to the members of the opposition who are most likely

to ask questions. Perhaps the minister could start by telling us why he needs this extra money so soon.


Mr. Flynn:: Mr. Chairman, I wish to thank the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate for his kind words and the committee for its kind reception. This item, sir, is to cover the acquisition of common camping and field equipment required by all units of the department. This is required at this time because these estimates are connected with winter works, and they are to help with the winter works program.
If the house wants exact details, there is a sum of $24,000 to cover commonly used camp and field materials such as insecticides, batteries and other expendable items. There is another item of $21,000 to provide for the repair of commonly used field equipment such as outboard motors, canoes, radios and so on. The total of all items is $65,000.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Perhaps the minister could tell us why repairs were needed. One can understand the need for new supplies, but surely the department could have anticipated how much they needed to spend on repairs. Were they especially hard on their equipment this past year?


Jacques Flynn: As I told the hon. member, the idea is to spend this money now to help with winter works.
(Translation):


Mr. Roberge:: Mr. Chairman, I am not sure if the question I wish to put to the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys (Mr. Flynn) is relevant to this item.
May I be permitted, incidentally, to congratulate my university colleague on his appointment at the head of this department.
I was told that, last summer or fall, teams from his department had made surveys in the constituency of Megantic and more particularly in the parish of St. Antoine de Pont-briand. The minister is perhaps in a position- assuming that the information I am now asking is relevant to this item-to tell me why those teams have been in my constituency, how long they have remained there and what has been the cost of the work they have carried out there.


Jacques Flynn: Mr. Chairman, I do not think the question asked by the hon. member for Megantic (Mr. Roberge) is relevant to any of the items under discussion. It is quite possible that teams from my department have worked in the constituency of Megantic. I do not know what they have done there, but I would gladly give him the information, if he so desires, either in writing or otherwise.
21, 1962	2025
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys


Gabriel Roberge: I should be grateful to the minister if he would kindly ask his departmental officials to answer my question in writing.
(Text):


John Whitney Pickersgill: I wonder if we could have a little more quiet in the committee so that those of us who are interested in the estimates can follow the discussion.


The Chairman:: I think it would be appreciated by all if more quiet were observed so that everyone could hear the discussion that is taking place.
Shall vote 637 carry?


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Canadian hydrographic service-
639.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment-further amount required, $50,000.
John Whitney Pickersgill: May I ask the minister if any part of this vote is for the construction of vessels?


Jacques Flynn: Yes, this supplementary estimate is required to provide for the replacement of three sounding launches. Two will be constructed on the west coast and one on the east coast.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Geological survey of Canada-
640.	Administration, operation and maintenance- further amount required, $75,000.
John Whitney Pickersgill: I have a question I should like to ask on this item. Perhaps it will not be strictly relevant, and if it is not perhaps the minister could answer it later. Could he say whether the geological survey employs students in the summertime in connection with its activities, and if so how they are recruited?


Jacques Flynn: I do not know if that question comes under this vote, but I do know that my department employs students for survey parties during the summer. I understand most of them are recruited from the universities and are students who are studying geology and other sciences which are of some concern to my department.


William Moore Benidickson: This is a further amount required for geological surveys, and though the minister is new on the job I believe he will have had time to ascertain that in Ontario there is a large joint project in relation to aeroplane surveys in the vast area from the Manitoba boundary eastward into the riding of my friend the hon. member for Port Arthur. It was expected that as a result of that very great program, which I believe has been going on for two years, the minister's colleague, the minister of northern affairs, who
2026	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys administers the vote with respect to roads to resources, would find that in co-operation with the provincial authorities it would be possible to decide upon the construction of a very important road running north and south.
Having regard to the fact that this program has gone on for a couple of years, it is my understanding that by now we should have had some assessment of its results by the department of mines. I know the minister of northern affairs will be coming before us very soon with some estimates for his department, and I thought it would be helpful to have knowledge of the results achieved.
Two months ago I wrote to my friend the provincial minister of mines, who comes from northwestern Ontario, and asked if he could give me information as to the particular section in which it was likely that this major north-south road would be built. He told me he thought he would be able to do so in the very near future but I have not heard from him, although I did note that another very important set of maps has been published. I believe it was on March 10 when this important geological physical set of maps was made available to the public who are interested in this program. Could the minister indicate to us what particularly outstanding conclusions have been arrived at so far as there aeroplane mapping surveys are concerned?


Jacques Flynn: I am afraid I would not be able to give the hon. member a complete answer to his question. As I understand it he is asking whether the program of aero-magnetic surveys which is being conducted jointly by my department and the provinces involves a certain area which he has described. I could not tell him that off hand, but I do know this program is continuing. In fact new agreements have been signed, and there is a three year program being organized presently with all the provinces, except possibly one. I would not be able to tell him whether there is any definite result in the area he has mentioned, but I can inquire and let him know at another time.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Dominion observatories-
Dominion observatory, Ottawa and field stations_
641.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment-further amount required, $60,450.
John Whitney Pickersgill: Could the minister tell us what this is about?


Jacques Flynn: This supplementary is required as follows:


1.	$2,600 for the construction of a cement pier and instrument shed for testing a proposed new site for the observatory in Gatineau park.
2.	$8,000 for the relocation of a road at the dominion radio astrophysical observatory, White Lake, B.C.
3.	$21,000 odd for the purpose of 1,650 25 foot poles for the construction of an interferometer array which will expand the scientific facilities of the dominion radio astrophysical observatory.
4.	$28,400 for the construction of a seismograph vault at Port Hardy, B.C.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I am not blaming the minister for this, but if he will look at the detail as compared with the main item he will find it is exactly the same, and I think a lot of time would be saved if a lot more information were given in these details. Were that done we would not have to ask these questions.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
General-
642.	Polar continental shelf project-further amount required, $16,400.
Harold Edward Winch: Under this vote we are being asked to provide an additional amount of $16,400, and all the information we are given is "polar continental shelf project-further amount required." I maintain that although the amount is small the principle involved is one of the most important to come before the House of Commons. You will remember, Mr. Chairman, that just a few days ago I had a motion on the order paper relative to the continental shelf, its sovereignty and its jurisdiction, and I made certain proposals to try to resolve the difficulty over sovereignty and the collection of leases and royalties.
As matters stand at present it is my understanding that because the polar continental shelf is circumscribed by Yukon Territory, the Northwest Territories and Hudson bay, the federal government claims jurisdiction, and I think rightly so. It is due to the fact that the Yukon, the Northwest Territories and the Mackenzie area come only under the administration of councils-the Yukon council and the Northwest Territories council-that the federal government is claiming and taking jurisdiction.
Can the minister give us any indication what position the federal government will take in view of the possibility that the Yukon Territory and the Northwest Territories may become additional provinces in Canada, because that naturally leads into the entire question of sovereignty over the continental shelf? In addition to that, because of this

vote and this vote alone I would like to ask the minister what leases have been issued by his department for the exploration of gas, oil or otherwise on the Yukon-Northwest Territories continental shelf. Also, following the issuance of these leases is exploration taking place; and if so can the minister give the committee any report on the results of those explorations?
Therefore basically, Mr. Chairman, my questions resolve themselves into two major points. As this is a request for additional money for the polar continental shelf project, can the minister inform us, up to the latest information which he has, what leases have been issued by the federal government on the polar continental shelf project; what is the extent to which leases have been issued; what has been the result up to date of exploration under the leases issued and, I repeat, in view of the fact that the federal government has not yet reached agreement with the maritime provinces on the sovereignty of the continental shelf, is any consideration being given to the position of the federal government under its present authority assuming sovereignty over the polar continental shelf in the eventuality of the Yukon and Northwest Territories becoming provinces of Canada?


Jacques Flynn: Mr. Chairman, I would inform the hon. member that my department has no territorial jurisdiction, nor has it jurisdiction over the mines or other mineral resources. This polar continental shelf project is related only to the scientific investigation of the shelf.
With regard to the question of leases for oil or other minerals, this matter comes under the jurisdiction of my colleague, the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources. I am sure he has taken good note of the questions of the hon. member, which will have given him time to prepare the answers.


Harold Edward Winch: Then could I ask the minister this question. He has said that the vote we are being asked to approve concerns a scientific investigation. I imagine that means a photographic and geographic survey.


Jacques Flynn: It is an examination of the substructure of the polar shelf to see what resources may be under there; what is the composition of the shelf. It is not an air survey necessarily; it is also a testing of the soil, I understand, to determine what is under the polar shelf.


Harold Edward Winch: My understanding from what the minister has now said is this. We are now being asked to approve a very small amount of money, but the principle is very important.

Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys The minister's department is only interested in spending this money on scientific research?


Jacques Flynn: Yes.


Harold Edward Winch: Then whatever is found is turned over to the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources?


Jacques Flynn: This is correct, Mr. Chairman. In fact, this vote concerns only the erection of prefabricated buildings at the new base camp to be located at Mould Bay, Northwest Territories, and the installation of equipment in chartered aircraft.
I would repeat that my department has no territorial jurisdiction whatsoever over the Yukon or Northwest Territories or the polar shelf itself. Our job is merely scientific, collecting data which may be useful either to the department of my colleague, the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources, or to the provincial governments.


Harold Edward Winch: Could I ask the minister just one more question. In view of the fact that this is the polar continental shelf project, further amount required, may I ask him how far north into the Arctic circle his department's scientific investigations are going.


Jacques Flynn: Mr. Chairman, I am afraid I am not able to give an answer to my hon. friend right now, but I could ask my officials to prepare a reply on this question and forward it to him as soon as possible.


Harold Edward Winch: I asked that question because I am certain the minister and all hon. members have been very interested in reading, not only a number of newspaper reports but scientific reports on scientific investigations coming from the other side of the north pole down into what may be termed Canadian territory. Very well, I refer to the Russians coming down into this area. Only $16,400 is involved, but the principle is important. How far are we going in these scientific investigations? I gather that the minister does not know.


Jacques Flynn: The exact place we are at, geographically, I do not know; but if my memory serves me right there is some cooperation between Canada and Russia in this work.


Harold Edward Winch: The minister said there is some co-operation between Canada and Russia?


Jacques Flynn: Yes, there has been an exchange of data and information.


Harold Edward Winch: Thank you, sir; that is the very answer I was hoping I could finally arrive at, and now we have it. With regard to the scientific investigations in the most northern part of Canada, would the minister

Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys now be prepared to tell us, in view of his statement, what is the scientific co-operation between the U.S.S.R. and Canada on the polar shelf? The minister said just now that there is some co-operation. Would he be good enough to give us some indication of what the cooperation is.


Jacques Flynn: Mr. Chairman, I do not think I could qualify what I have said about this co-operation. I would say that generally cooperation in the scientific field is excellent with all countries, and in this respect I think Russia is no different from any other country when it is concerned with very peaceful purposes such as the one we are pursuing.


Harold Edward Winch: I am sorry, apparently I misunderstood. Co-operation in connection with the geophysical year or anything else is one thing; but the minister has just said there is some co-operation between Canada and Russia on the northern part of our borders. Can he give any indication of what that cooperation is, on a scientific basis, on the continental shelf.


Jacques Flynn: Mr. Chairman, I have already told the hon. member that I am not in a position to go further than I have up to now. The hon. member appreciates that under this estimate we are not discussing this whole matter, because the principle was adopted when the main estimates were approved by the committee. I am not in a position at this time to go further than I have. I think it will be a proper question when the main estimates come before the committee or, as I suggested to the hon. member and if he agrees, I will have my officials prepare a written answer to his question and I will forward it to him as soon as I can.


Paul Raymond Martineau: Shall vote 642 carry?


John Whitney Pickersgill: No, Mr. Chairman. The minister knows very well that in the absence of the hon. member for Laurier I could not possibly let this vote go by without at least a passing reference to an aircraft company named Autair, because the minister mentioned something about aircraft in explaining the item. Would the minister tell us whether there is any contract with this notorious company in connection with the work being done on the continental shelf.


Jacques Flynn: The only thing I can say is that I have no information that it has anything to do with the $16,400 mentioned in this item.


John Whitney Pickersgill: The minister surely knows whether they have a contract. They might carry the materials to build this building.

They might have something to do with it. Can the minister say whether they have a contract at the present time?


Jacques Flynn: Do you mean in a field other than the one governed by this item?


John Whitney Pickersgill: In the continental shelf program.


Jacques Flynn: I do not know. I would have to check. I am not in a position to give an answer now. I think this question was fully discussed last year. Perhaps a re-reading of Hansard when the main estimates were discussed would provide an answer.


John Whitney Pickersgill: That might well be. But before the item passes-I do not want to delay it-may I express the hope, since we have a new minister, that the new minister is not as much associated with the past as some other ministers may have been. If he has any contracts to let for air services in the north may we hope that proper, competitive tenders will be called and that all competing companies will be allowed to compete for the business.


Jacques Flynn: I will give an assurance to the hon. member that my department will always proceed in this respect on the basis most economic for the department. But I am sure he will not quarrel with me if I do not go further at this time, because the whole system of asking for tenders in this field is not as simple as in other departments.


John Whitney Pickersgill: We have found that out already.


Harold Edward Winch: I have one further request for information. Does the polar continental project include any work within the boundaries of Hudson bay?


Jacques Flynn: I would say it was further north. My understanding is that the polar shelf is further north than the contour of Hudson bay.


Harold Edward Winch: I raise this question because I think it is rather important. Canada has a greater area of the continental shelf than the United States, if one includes Hudson bay. Can the minister tell us whether any provision is included here for a study of the continental shelf in the Hudson bay area itself, because as I recall it Hudson hay is on the polar shelf under the jurisdiction of the federal government.


Jacques Flynn: I would say no. I cannot guarantee that my answer is correct, but I would think that the polar shelf project here is related to an area which is further north than the Hudson bay area-Baffin island, and those areas. That is my understanding of the location of the work to be done

in connection with this project. This does not mean that my department does not conduct scientific investigations in the Hudson bay area. I would have to ask. But it would not be in connection with this specific project.


Mr. Carter:: Is this a survey project?


Jacques Flynn: It is a scientific investigation and, as I told the committee earlier, I understand this is a study of the substructure of the soil of the shelf.


Chesley William Carter: It is more of a boring operation.


Jacques Flynn: A boring operation, I think. Yes.


Harold Edward Winch: I think this is a most important matter, so I ask the question: what is the relationship between this polar continental shelf project, involving scientific examination, and the granting of leases by the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources in respect of experimentation and exploration on the polar shelf? What is the relation between this project for scientific exploration and the leases which have been issued to oil and gas companies extending over millions of acres?


Jacques Flynn: I think the hon. member's question would be more properly answered by my colleague. As I said before, we collect data relating to what may be in the ground- minerals and other resources. This information is made available to the public generally. When somebody wants to obtain an exploration permit his request is directed to the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources. For this reason I think the question asked by the hon. member for Vancouver East would be better answered by my colleague.


Harold Edward Winch: Am I in order, then, in asking on this vote, which is a vote in connection with a scientific project on the polar continental shelf, whether the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources can tell us about the nature of the tie-in between the leases which are issued by his department and the scientific projects of the Ministry of Mines and Technical Surveys?


Paul Raymond Martineau: I think the minister has already given an answer. He has gone as far as he can in dealing with the matters under his own jurisdiction.


Harold Edward Winch: So I cannot ask the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources to deal further with the question I have raised.


Paul Raymond Martineau: I think that would not be in order.
26207-1-130i
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys


Chesley William Carter: If this is a boring operation is it intended solely to obtain scientific knowledge of what is beneath the surface, or is it being carried out for commercial purposes?


Jacques Flynn: Would the hon. member clarify his use of the word "commercial".


Chesley William Carter: I am trying to find out what the purpose of this project is. We are carrying out some borings on the polar shelf and I just want to find out whether we are doing this simply to accumulate scientific knowledge or whether we are trying to get knowledge that we can pass on for commercial exploitation later.


Jacques Flynn: The investigations are for general purposes. Of course, if they have any value for commercial purposes the information would eventually be used in this sense. The immediate purpose is to gather scientific data. When we know what is there, we may decide what to do with it. Eventually, maybe, there will be a commercial interest.


Harold Edward Winch: I intend to ask one more question. Can the minister tell us how far one must go up the coast before coming to what is called the polar continental shelf? Does this scientific investigation in any way include areas on the coast of Labrador?


Jacques Flynn: As I told the hon. member previously, I do not think this project will affect in any way the territory of the province of Quebec or of the province of Newfoundland. I would say it is on the islands north of the continental mainland.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
B-Dominion coal board-
643.	Payments in connection with movements of coal under conditions prescribed by the governor in council-further amount required, $4,800,000.
Hédard-J. Robichaud: This is an item of $4,800,000 to provide for payments in connection with the movement of coal under conditions prescribed by the governor in council. Can the minister tell us how many tons of coal would be involved in connection with these payments and where the coal would be moved. Would it be moved to Ontario?


Jacques Flynn: The dominion coal board has requested the provision of $4,800,000 in the form of a supplementary estimate as follows: provision of an additional $1,928,000 to cover an increase in the estimated cost of moving Nova Scotia coal to market under the provisions of order in council PC 1961/484.
When the original estimate was made in late 1960, there was no reason to believe that the electric power situation in Ontario would require substantial operation of the thermal plants of the Ontario hydro. Early

Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys in the year, however, hydro came into the market tor coal and placed a contract with Nova Scotia producers for 200,000 tons. This coal has been delivered during this fiscal year and assistance claimed under the provisions of the order quoted above. As I said, this additional movement has required the expenditure of $1,978,000.
Second, there is provision of $1,900,000 under authority of orders in council 1961-18 and 1961-762. This amount is the sum needed to provide for the losses incurred by the Dominion Coal Company and associated companies in maintaining three coal mines in operation beyond the time ordinarily required for closure. The extra expense arises out of the fact that the market could only take a certain amount of coal and to reduce the output to this figure required short time operation of all mines. Short time operation is expensive as all fixed charges continue without any financial return.
On January 9, 1961, my predecessor, the Hon. Mr. Comtois and the Minister of National Kevenue issued a joint statement to the press, parliament being then not in session, advising that an agreement had been made to retain the following in operation: No. 4 colliery until May 31, 1961; Florence colliery until July 1, 1961; No. 16 colliery until August 12, 1961. Order in council P.C. 1961-18 was passed to authorize payment of assistance.
On May 10, 1961, Hon. Mr. Comtois made a further statement in parliament advising that the situation had deteriorated and that to prevent widespread unemployment it had been decided to provide assistance to maintain No. 16 colliery in operation until August 12, 1962. Order in council P.C. 1961-762 was passed to authorize this assistance. The sum of $1,900,000 is to cover the payments by the federal government during the fiscal year for this purpose.
Third, provision of an additional $900,000 to cover an increase in the amount of coking coal shipped for export to Japan under provision of order in council P.C. 1961-487. The original estimate of the amount of coal moving under this order was 500,000 tons. It later developed that this could be increased to 700,000 tons and authority granted to approve the increase. The 200,000 additional tons at $4.50 per ton make up the $900,000 requested.


Hédard-J. Robichaud: Mr. Chairman, I wish to thank the minister for the information he has given the committee on this item. I do not wish under this item to engage in a debate on all the problems of the coal industry but this is the first occasion on which we have had the opportunity to secure information from the minister on the actions

expected to be taken by the government to prevent the closure of colliery No. 16, which is supposed to take place on August 12 as the minister has mentioned earlier.
The committee knows that after two years in office this government, not being able to find a solution to the problems of the coal industry, decided to appoint a royal commission. This commission known as the Rand commission made public its report in September, 1960. Realizing that it was a controversial report and that it was not acceptable to all phases of the industry the former minister of mines and technical surveys and the government decided to submit this report to an interdepartmental committee. I recall the words of the former minister when this report was passed to the interdepartmental committee when he said it had clear and definite instructions to study and prepare recommendations. We have waited a long time for the recommendations of the interdepartmental committee.
We are now aware that the government has had a report from the committee, and according to the commitment made to this house by the former minister I feel we have the right to ask the present minister to make known the recommendations of the interdepartmental committee.
I understand that earlier this session the house turned down a request to table this report but in view of the commitment made to this house by the former minister to make known the recommendations of the interdepartmental committee I believe this is a proper item to request this information and it is the first occasion the present minister has had to inform the house as to what those recommendations are. If those recommendations are acceptable parliament then will be in a position to study the matter and make its decision accordingly.


Mr. Brunsden:: Mr. Chairman, on a point
of order, are we discussing a budget item, a supplementary estimate or some previous political history which is of interest only to my hon. friend?


Hédard-J. Robichaud: On the point of order, Mr. Chairman, we are discussing an item of $4,800,000 to cover further payments for the movement of coal from Nova Scotia to other centres in Canada. I am not against it and never have been against it, but I feel in view of the large amount involved this committee has a right to know whether the department has other plans for the coal industry. We realize that the government is paying large amounts in the form of subsidies to keep the coal industry going but this is only a temporary measure. This is not a measure which

gives satisfaction to the industry or which will provide it with an opportunity of becoming established on a permanent basis.
I feel we have a right to know from the minister what are the plans of the government. When I asked a question some time ago as to a report on the meeting held in Ottawa among representatives of the Nova Scotia government and the coal industry and representatives of the federal government the minister said, and I paraphrase only one sentence, "needless to say the government will consider these views in a most sympathetic manner and a decision will be taken as soon as possible."
I ask the minister now whether a decision has been taken and whether the decision that has been or will be taken is in line with the recommendation of the interdepartmental committee which was established for the very purpose of informing the government what should be done for the potential of the coal industry.


Jacques Flynn: Mr. Chairman, I believe that the hon. member for Gloucester has put together two problems and covered them with only one question. He has raised the problem of the general policy on coal and the problem of the closing of No. 16 colliery.
As to No. 16 colliery, I suppose the hon. member has the answer I gave him the other day to the effect that when a decision is taken by the government in connection with this special problem, which one should dissociate from the general problem of the Nova Scotia coal industry, an announcement will be made in due course.
As far as the general policy governing coal is concerned the hon. member knows what the present policy is. He has underlined the fact that we have the Rand report and that an interdepartmental committee has studied the conclusions of the Rand report. The hon. gentleman realizes that I am not in a position to tell him what are the recommendations of the interdepartmental committee. However, I can give him my assurance that the government is considering the whole problem and that it hopes to be able to make an announcement about general policy-I am not speaking with respect to No. 16 colliery but with respect to general policy-as soon as possible.


Mr. Woolliams:: Mr. Chairman, 1 cannot let this item pass without first of all congratulating the new minister and also thanking him on behalf of the united mine workers of America, particularly in the Canmore area where the miners have had many thousands of hours of work since 1957 as a result of the shipment of coal from that area in the Crowsnest pass in Alberta to the new market in Japan. When the minister was
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys giving the details on item 643 I noticed that he mentioned that arrangements have now been made for the purchase of a further
500,000	to 700,000 tons of coal.
Through the minister I also wish to express my appreciation to the members of the coal board. I also wish to thank the members of his department and of the Department of Trade and Commerce for making it possible to provide many hours of work in the Can-more area and other places in the Crowsnest pass.
I do not want to say any more because I do not wish to delay the estimates. However, I wish to express appreciation to the minister and the departments concerned on behalf of the members of the united mine workers at Drumheller who do not enjoy the Japanese market but who now have another opportunity through another enterprise that will provide them with a million dollar annual payroll. In the market for soft coal there is quite severe competition with petroleum and natural gas. Once again I wish to congratulate the minister and to ask him to thank the members of the coal board and his officers for making full employment possible in some areas of Bow River.


Chesley William Carter: Mr. Chairman, the minister has told us that the purpose of this item is to prevent the lay-off of miners in a colliery in Nova Scotia. Is consideration being given to providing similar assistance to prevent the lay-off of miners at Bell island?


Jacques Flynn: Mr. Chairman, I doubt very much that the question of the hon. member has anything to do with the item under discussion, but if I may repeat what I said the other day, the Solicitor General, the Minister of Labour and myself received a delegation from Bell island for the purpose of discussing their problems. I may say that discussions are continuing in a search for any possible help and the utmost sympathy is being shown with regard to this very serious problem.


Chesley William Carter: I have one more question. Has the government made any study of the feasibility of matching the coal from Nova Scotia with the iron ore at Bell island to make a smelter possible?


Jacques Flynn: I might answer yes. Every possible solution has been examined, but I am not in a position to report any conclusion to the hon. member.


Mr. Smith (Lincoln):: Mr. Chairman, I
should like to ask a question of the minister which I think is relevant at this time. I understand that a machine has been developed and constructed by the Foster Wheeler Company of Canada to experiment with new
2032	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys methods of burning Nova Scotia coal and recovering the by-products from the ash. I understand that Nova Scotia coal has a very high content of ash and sulphur and that this machine has been developed by the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys to experiment with it and has now been installed, I believe, in a building in Ottawa. I should like to ask the minister whether it has been put into operation yet. Perhaps he is not aware of it. If not, perhaps he will take my question as notice and write to me about the matter. Before I resume my seat I should like to congratulate the new minister. I am sure he will be a great asset to our cabinet.


Jacques Flynn: Mr. Chairman, I want to thank the hon. member for his kindness. I know that my department is constantly preoccupied with new methods of using coal and also the examination of inventions which might result in using more coal, but I am not aware of the specific experiment to which the hon. member has referred. I will be very happy to have my officials prepare information for him about it.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Mr. Chairman, I have a couple of very brief questions I should like to ask the minister. We have all followed his introduction to this department with interest. I may say that I think those who were associated with him as I was on a trip we shared some months ago found him a most charming companion and good host, and I am very pleased to see him elevated to the ministry.
I know, of course, that he comes from Quebec and is very much interested in any developments that take place there. For that reason I am prepared to ask him some questions about the Sulphur Converting Corporation and the plan that must exist within that company to use coal of various kinds. Specifically, was the minister approached by the officials of Sulphur Converting Corporation or was the dominion coal board approached with a view to using Nova Scotia coal at the project being considered by the company near Quebec city? Have tests been carried out in relation to this project that would indicate that Nova Scotia coal rather than United States coal would be suitable for the particular process planned by Sulphur Converting Corporation?
I see the minister shaking his head. I have been trying to follow in the Quebec press as well as I can the trials, tribulations, difficulties, statements, beliefs and opinions of Mr. Leclerc, and it certainly seems to me that a person who has ranged as widely as Mr. Leclerc has must have gone into the matter of the coal supply for this steel mill. For that reason I would appreciate it if the minister


Jacques Flynn: In so far as the Sulphur Converting Corporation is concerned, Mr. Chairman-I do not know if that is the correct name-I can tell the hon. member for Port Arthur that neither my department nor the dominion coal board has been consulted or had anything to do with the project. The only connection the government had with the project was as pointed out by the Minister of Transport, to refer the company to the Canadian National and the national harbours board. So far as my department is concerned, the company has not consulted us at all in connection with the use of coal in this project. Now, I do not want to say anything else for fear I would seem to be giving approval to the soundness of the project. I do not know more than that. I have come too near to burning my fingers, and I do not want to try it again.
In so far as moving Nova Scotia coal to western Ontario is concerned, I am not able to give any specific answer to the hon. member. I may add, however, that Mr. Justice Rand expressed the view that the maintenance of a market in Ontario and Quebec should not be considered as something to be looked at for a very long period of years. However, I do not want the committee to draw any conclusion from that. I just want to indicate to the hon. member that it seems to me it would have been difficult for the dominion coal board to consider moving Nova Scotia coal even farther west than it goes at the moment.
The suggestion of the hon. member to ship coal by these ocean going vessels coming in ballast can be looked into. However, I am not too hopeful it would prove feasible. In so far as the Saskatchewan lignite is concerned, I may say that I have no knowledge
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys that the dominion coal board or my department have made any study of its use along the lines suggested.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I should like to ask the
minister if any part of this vote, either the additional sum or the original sum is used for subventions on coal within the maritime provinces, apart from those subsidies that are paid on coal for power purposes. In other words, are there any subventions paid for coal within the maritime provinces for any other purpose, and if so how much of the total item would it be?


Jacques Flynn: The answer is that the amounts which are used under the authority of orders in council 1961-18 and 1961-762, in connection with the maintenance and operation of No. 4 colliery, Florence colliery and No. 1 colliery which is scheduled to close on August 12, 1962, are payments made for coal used in the maritimes.


John Whitney Pickersgill: It has nothing to do with the transportation of it?


Jacques Flynn: It has nothing to do with the movement of coal.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Outside of these, what amounts are paid for moving coal from Nova Scotia to markets in Quebec and Ontario?


Jacques Flynn: As the hon. member knows the present policy is one of assisting the movement of coal to these Ontario and Quebec markets as I have indicated.


John Whitney Pickersgill: There are also some subsidies paid, and this may not be done by the minister's department but by this crown company, in connection with the power program which is under his colleague. They are not in the minister's department?


Jacques Flynn: Oh, no.


John Whitney Pickersgill: The point I am trying to get out is that the dominion coal board pays no subventions on the movement of coal within the maritime provinces?


Jacques Flynn: No.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I just wanted to be quite clear about that because that is not an answer we could ever get clearly from the minister's predecessor. It is rather interesting, you know, to read that in connection with something that was said on May 2, 1957 at Amherst, Nova Scotia by the present head of the government. At that time he said that the subventions on coal mentioned by the federal government are nothing more than subsidies which Nova Scotians already have to compete with the central provinces. The present Prime Minister went on to say, and I quote:
"What we want", he asserted, "is coal subventions within the province."
2034	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
This statement is taken from the Halifax Chronicle-Herald of May 3, 1957, and that is nearly five years ago. I am just wondering if the minister could indicate when that promise of the Prime Minister's is going to be carried out, and whether any part of the money to be voted in this fiscal year would be used to carry out that five year old promise, that what we want is coal subventions within the province.


Mr. MacEwan:: I listened with interest to the remarks of the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate and 1 noted he was back on the old story from the red book. The Prime Minister was in New Glasgow, Nova Scotia, not long after that and he stated in the presence of myself and the new premier of Nova Scotia something to this effect: "You asked for subventions in the maritime provinces for power users, and you will have those subventions." Regardless of what the hon. member said, he mentioned the Atlantic Provinces Power Development Act under which subventions are paid to industrial users who use power which is generated by coal. I would point out that this was brought forward by this government.
He may not think it means very much but I would tell him it means a great deal in my area. I put this on record in Hansard when a private member-I think it was the hon. member for Timiskaming-brought forward a private member's motion which suggested the national power grid. Certainly there are two mines in my area which are very much dependant on power produced in the Trenton thermo power plant, and subventions, are paid under the Atlantic Provinces Power Development Act to industrial users. Also under the act various transmission lines were constructed within the provinces of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick and power has been sent over them from the plant in my area. This indeed has helped very much to assist the production of coal in the three mines in my area, Greenwood, Drummond and part of the production in the McBean seam.
These are the only three mines left in my area after the manner in which the former government did not assist the other mines which closed up during the 1950's. I know that the hon. member in speaking on this provision has said the Prime Minister referred to coal subventions within the province of Nova Scotia, within the maritimes, but that is merely a play on words by him.
Indeed at the meeting which the delegation from Cape Breton attended not so long ago various things were brought forward which were projected by the hon. member for Cape Breton South, the hon. member for Cape Breton North and Victoria, the hon. member for Inverness-Richmond, and others, including


myself. There are a lot of things that could come forward and I am sure the government will give consideration to the subventions that could be paid to certain industrial plants which perhaps use their own power or use other types of fuel at the present time. I know consideration is being given to that by the federal government. Coal subvention in the maritimes is merely a play on words by the hon. member.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I thank the hon. member, whom I might describe as unpaid parliamentary secretary, for his intervention on behalf of the minister. I may say the last thing I want to do-


Howard Russell MacEwan: I am just looking after my constituency. I am not looking for any glamour at all.


John Whitney Pickersgill: We have what the hon. member publicized in 1957 and we would be glad to exhibit it to the house.


Howard Russell MacEwan: I am waiting for you, don't worry.


John Whitney Pickersgill: The hon. gentleman does not boast about the manner-


Howard Russell MacEwan: I never boast about anything.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I listened very attentively to what the hon. member had to say, and as he has always been a courteous member I am sure he will listen attentively to me. The last thing I want to do is disparage in any way the excellent program for the development of power in the maritime provinces, which was announced in Mr. Harris' budget speech in the spring of 1957 and was accepted in principle by the present premier of Nova Scotia and by the former premier of New Brunswick immediately after that budget was brought forward, and which was under discussion with these governments before the Diefenbaker government ever came into office.
We think that was a good program, although we do not think it was carried on as well as it might have been. We are glad it kept three mines open in the hon. gentleman's constituency, and he ought to be very grateful to Mr. Harris, Mr. Lesage and Mr. St. Laurent for what they did at that time. However I am talking about something else that the Prime Minister promised. The hon. gentleman said it was a play on words-


An hon. Member:: On your part.


John Whitney Pickersgill: It was a play on words no doubt on the part of the hon. gentleman's leader. He is a great one for playing on words as we all know. I have another quotation and I shall quote the Prime Minister's words as reported in the Saint John Telegraph-Journal

of June 3, 1957, in what the Prime Minister now calls the servile press, although he did not call them that in those days.
Speaking on maritime issues in the coal mining district of Minto, N.B., Mr. Diefen-baker said that-
-the Liberal government is not taking action to help the coal industry. There should be federal treasury aid towards the cost of freighting coal within the maritimes.
It is interesting to note that there is nothing there about subventions to power plants. That was five years ago and now I ask the minister who is in charge of the dominion coal board, is there any likelihood of that promise being kept before March 31, 1962?


Harold Edward Winch: I am not interested in any snarling between Liberals and Conservatives. I am not interested in any past red books or white papers. My interest is in this vote which has to deal with the matter of coal in Canada. I realize, as we all do, that the present minister has only been in his high office for a short period of time but he is the minister now in charge of technical surveys and coal. For that reason I ask him whether any action is being taken by himself or in his department to establish a national coal policy for Canada. The time is long past when that should have been done.
From Nova Scotia to British Columbia we have perhaps what I would describe as the greatest resources of coal anywhere in the world. We have all grades of coal from lignite to bituminous and anthracite. In other words, we have everything from soft coal to steam coal, but we are in the extraordinary situation that the Canadian taxpayers have to spend millions and millions of dollars a year on subsidizing the various aspects of the coal industry, either directly or by freight subsidies. To me that seems positively stupid because, as I say, we have all kinds of coal from lignite to anthracite, and in British Columbia we have billions of tons of anthracite which have never yet been opened up and developed. Yet we import millions of tons of coal each year from south of the border.
We import it right into Nova Scotia where we have our lignite coal mines. Ontario hydro imports it into Ontario, and we cannot do anything about that because it is a provincial matter. Polymer, a federally owned crown company, imports its coal from the United States.


Eldon Mattison Woolliams: I wonder if the hon. member would answer a question? I think what he is saying does not hold true in regard to sub-bituminous coal and soft domestic coal. There is sub-bituminous coal in Alberta which is being exported at the moment.
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys


Harold Edward Winch: My hon. friend is very fortunate in his own particular riding, and thereabouts, in that they are now able to export their coal to Japan.


Eldon Mattison Woolliams: That is right.


Harold Edward Winch: It is the lignite; it is the soft coaL


Eldon Mattison Woolliams: It is the sub-bituminous.


Harold Edward Winch: I say we import millions of tons of coal into Canada. The federal government pays out millions of dollars annually to support the coal industry. If we take the situation as it exists across Canada, we have every type of coal that is known and which could be required. Surely we now need a national coal policy. That is all I ask.
Has the minister yet had time to give consideration to the entire coal situation from Nova Scotia to British Columbia with regard to imports and exports; and if not, is it a matter that the minister has under very serious consideration?


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Chairman, first of all I want to congratulate the minister on the appointment to his present portfolio and wish him well in all he undertakes for the general advantage of our country. That is a safe statement.
From 1945 or 1946 up to about 1955 this house was informed from time to time of experiments in connection with a gas turbine, the purpose of which was to utilize large quantities of our coal. From time to time we were given glowing accounts of near success. I remember listening very carefully on a number of occasions to the reports on these experiments. Since 1955 there has been a sort of gap of silence and we have heard very little about this gas turbine and the experiments in relation thereto.
I mention this matter because the experiments were being conducted with a view to using coal, I think on locomotives, other engines and things of that sort. Is the minister in a position to bring the committee up to date on the latest developments and what progress is being made, or have the experiments been discontinued?


Jacques Flynn: Mr. Chairman, I am afraid I am not in a position to give an answer to the hon. member on these specific experiments. I have been informed that they have been discontinued, but I would rather check on this before giving him a definite answer. I could send him a letter on this matter. I am afraid I cannot say any more at the present time.


Hédard-J. Robichaud: Mr. Chairman, I have only one question I should like to ask the minister before this item is passed. Could the minister
2036	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys advise the committee whether his department or the dominion coal board have been in communication with the governments of the provinces of New Brunswick and Nova Scotia for the purpose of establishing large turbo generating plants at the pithead; and if such communication has taken place, has any consideration been given to proceeding with these plants?


Jacques Flynn: I do not know of any recent communication. Since my appointment I have not received any request of the kind mentioned by the hon. member. I do not know whether there was any such request before my appointment or whether it is under consideration, but since my appointment no such request has been received.


Hédard-J. Robichaud: The minister is aware that just recently the New Brunswick electric power commission decided to proceed with the construction of a thermal plant at Grand Lake, which will use at least 100,000 tons of coal a year. I think a good portion of the money that is now being spent on subsidies and grants would be spent much more profitably if it went to subsidizing the cost of electric power generated from coal in large generating plants at the pitheads. This would serve two purposes: it would absorb substantial quantities of coal and at the same time it would provide cheap power for new and existing industries in the Atlantic provinces.


Jacques Flynn: I would be pleased to ask the officials of the dominion coal board to consider the proposal of the hon. member. With regard to the gas turbine experiments-referring to the question asked by the hon. member for Kootenay West-I am told that a complete report was published about a year ago and is available for general use. The conclusion was that the suggestion was not practical. I could probably obtain a copy of this report for the hon. member.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Thank you.


Harold Edward Winch: Mr. Chairman, I wish to ask one further question. I realize that we are not permitted to ask for information on what took place during an in camera meeting in connection with grid power. However, as we are discussing the matter of coal I would like to ask the minister whether because of his knowledge on a grid system he knows if any consideration is being given to this question. In the province of Saskatchewan-and I think I am safe in saying, in the province of Alberta also-there is enough lignite coal, if used for the production of power, to produce such a terrific horsepower that it could be tied into a grid system at approximately a rate of 2.7 to three mills for over 100 years. This is with
[Mr. Hobichaud.l

the known resources of lignite coal in Saskatchewan and Alberta. Under this vote could I ask the minister whether that is in accordance with his knowledge, and whether it is being given any consideration in the matter of a power grid in Canada.


Jacques Flynn: Mr. Chairman, under this vote I do not think the hon. member should ask me this question, but I am willing to ask for a report as to whether it has been considered. I am not aware that it has been specifically considered by my department.


Harold Edward Winch: Then I understand, sir, that if there is any report on the utilization of the lignite coal of Alberta and Saskatchewan for the production of power, the minister will make it available; and if not, the minister will have a study made of it?


Jacques Flynn: Mr. Chairman, I did not say that I would have a study made of it. I said that if a study has been made, I will let the hon. member know what are the conclusions. However, I think the hon. member will agree with me that the difficulties in connection with coal in Canada are centred in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, mainly in Nova Scotia. I do not know of any specific problem in Saskatchewan. I would suggest that the use of coal in Saskatchewan would be a problem for the provincial government at this time. It may be that my department has examined the question which the hon. member has raised. If it has, I will be very pleased to let him know the conclusions that have been reached.


Harold Edward Winch: The estimates of the minister were referred to a few days ago and they could not be dealt with because he was attending the conference on the question of a national power grid. The question of coal is an important one. It covers this country from Nova Scotia to British Columbia, but it definitely ties in with coal of lignite nature in Saskatchewan and Alberta. My information is that millions of electrical horsepower are available by the utilization of lignite coal, for less than four mills.


Jacques Flynn: Mr. Chairman, I am not denying that the hon. member may be right. I would simply say that my understanding of the examination of the feasibility of a power grid was related to hydro resources. Perhaps in part this power could be provided by lignite coal, as suggested by the hon. member, but at the present time I am under the impression that the conference is considering the available hydro resources for the purposes of a national grid.


Harold Edward Winch: I am sorry. The minister has just said apparently, that the development of the grid power circuit is only to be based

on hydro. It is not to be based on the capabilities, whether hydro or thermal-


Jacques Flynn: If the hon. member would allow me to interrupt him, I said this was my understanding now. Maybe he should keep his question for the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources whose estimates are to follow mine and who is more directly concerned with this question. My department, as I pointed out, would probably make a study of a question like the one raised by the hon. member, but it would not establish policy with regard to a power grid.


Mr. Soulham:: First, I should like to join with those of my colleagues who have extended congratulations to the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys on his appointment to his present high office. I have listened with a great deal of interest this afternoon to the discussion of these items so far as it relates to coal.
I should like to draw the attention of the committee to the fact that approximately 20 per cent of the coal in Canada is situated in the riding of Moose Mountain. Naturally, I have been interested in the comments which have been made. I feel that this recent conference between the federal government and the provinces with respect to a national power grid will be of great interest to the people of my riding. It has been pointed out this afternoon that the provincial governments have the primary responsibility for such an undertaking, but it is also our responsibility as a federal government, I think, to do everything we can to assist the coal industry. The lignite coal in my riding is already being developed for use in thermal generating plants and I think our provincial government has stated, in the course of the discussions of the last day or two, that it is willing to co-operate in a national power grid system.
I should like, now, to make a few brief remarks which, I agree, may not be entirely in order on this item. Nevertheless, if I could have the ear of the Chair, I would point out that the lignite coal industry is having a real problem in competing with other fuels,	such as	gas and	oil,	in myriding. The	industry	is	doing	its	utmostto compete, and in the last few years there have been conversions from the old method of pit mining to surface mining, and new machinery has been brought in to make this change	possible.	In	fact,	one	of thelargest drag	lines on	the	North American
continent, called "Mr. Climax" is now working in Moose Mountain. As further assistance to subventions, it has been suggested that we might possibly have an amendment to
Supply-Northern Affairs the Coal Production Assistance Act so that when people in the lignite industry take advantage of this act and borrow certain sums of money, they would find the terms more favourable than they are at the present time. The act should be amended so that the present repayment on the basis of 30 cents a ton on wholesale costs at the pithead could be reduced to 10 cents, a figure which would be more realistic. I think this is a logical suggestion. Hard coal is worth roughly between $10 and $12 at the pithead while the lignite coal which is being mined in Moose Mountain is worth approximately .$2 per ton. Therefore, repayment of a loan at the rate of 30 cents a ton under the Coal Production Assistance Act is really out of proportion and a figure of 10 cents a ton would be far more realistic.
I just thought I would like to bring that to the attention of the minister because there is no doubt that within his department there will be a discussion about the development of a national coal policy. I think the suggestion I have made should be given serious consideration in connection with such a policy.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
DEPARTMENT OF NORTHERN AFFAIRS AND NATIONAL RESOURCES National parks branch-
National parks and historic sites and monuments
[Stage Direction]
648. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment-further amount required, $2,500,000.
Hédard-J. Robichaud: Can the minister give us the distribution of this fund of $2.5 million which I understand will be used mostly in the national parks? Can the hon. gentleman give the names of the parks and the amounts of money spent in each?


Mr. Dinsdale:: The item before the committee is concerned entirely with the winter works projects on historic sites and in national parks. I shall be happy to answer the question asked by the hon. member if he will be satisfied with a general breakdown rather than a detailed breakdown. The amount to be spent on historic sites is $160,700. The further amounts to be spent on the parks themselves are as follows:
National parks trunk highways	 $ 64,000
Banff park	 290,700
Cape Breton Highlands park	 218,500
Elk Island park	 78,500
Fundy	park	
66,000Jasper	park	
164,500Kootenay park	
183,500
Mount Revelstoke and Glacier parks 144,500
Point Pelee park	 40,200
Prince	Albert park	
249,200Prince	Edward Island park	
102,500Riding	Mountain park	
320,000St. Lawrence Islands park	
4,000
Supply-Northern Affairs
Terra Nova park	 198,000
Waterton Lakes park	 92,000
Yoho park	  123,200


Hédard-J. Robichaud: Did I understand the minister to say that $249,000 were being spent at Prince Albert park?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Yes, $249,200.


Hédard-J. Robichaud: That is the largest amount being spent anywhere in Canada.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: No, that is not correct. More is being spent in Riding Mountain park.


Harold Edward Winch: This vote provides for national parks and historic sites and monuments; construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment. The further amount required is $2,500,000.
Under this vote I could make an emotional speech, a heartfelt speech and a reasonable speech. However, because I have spoken so often already, I am not going to do that. I intend to direct one question to the minister. In view of the representations which have been made to him and to the board by citizens and organizations in Vancouver, is he in a position to inform me what is the situation now with regard to the request we have been making for the last two years that New Brighton park should be recognized as a national historic site.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I am happy to be able to inform the hon. member that certain proposals have been received from people in Vancouver interested in New Brighton park. I believe this is the Hastings townsite park. These proposals will be processed by the historic sites and monuments board when the board meets in May here in Ottawa.


Mr. Wratien:: There are two or three projects that I should like to bring to the attention of the minister. They concern places which are either in my riding or very close to it.
The first concerns the Bell homestead where Alexander Graham Bell conceived the idea of the telephone and where the first voices went over the wire. This building is situated on the banks of the Grand river. Due to the erosion of the bank it is necessary, or will be necessary in time, to move this building across the road in order to preserve it and keep it in proper condition.
In drawing this matter to the attention of the minister I express the hope that he will give it favourable consideration and assist us in our endeavour to retain this building as a national historic site. The federal government has recognized it through the erection of a cairn bearing a plaque, so I hope when the time comes to move the building the government will assist us to do it.


Another project to which I wish to direct the minister's attention is the Mohawk church, the first Protestant church to be erected in Upper Canada, now Ontario. On the week end I had the good fortune to visit the site with the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Trade and Commerce. I was surprised to learn when we went to look over this historic building that it was closed because of a lack of funds with which to repair the heating system. This church was erected in 1785 for the Indians of the Six Nations who came down the Grand river to the fork in the river to worship at this church. Now, due to circumstances beyond their control, it is not open for want of the small sum required to repair the heating apparatus in the church. I believe it would be an excellent gesture on the part of the federal government to make a small grant to the church board to have the heating system repaired. I understand that the last time the building was renovated it was made possible through the generosity of a gentleman in Toronto.
A third project which is not in my own riding but in an adjacent one is the restoration of Chiefswood, the birthplace of the Canadian poetess, Pauline Johnson. The council of the Six Nations Indians, who have not very much money, have allocated $6,400 of their funds to commence this restoration project. They plan to restore the building to its original size. They will restore it to the condition it was in when Pauline Johnson lived there and they also have in mind plans for the erection of a real Indian village on the site to attract tourists to this district and show people how the Indians lived years ago.
If the Indians are willing out of their scanty funds to contribute this sum of money, surely we as a federal government can contribute some money toward the restoration of this building. The old alibi has been that the property must be crown property before the federal government will do anything. As I understand it, Indian property is held in trust by the crown. If it is already held in trust by the crown I fail to see why the federal government cannot take action.
I urge the minister to give this project serious consideration. In fact it would be better if he would consent to visit Brantford so he could see this historic site for himself. He would then have a better idea of what we have in mind.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Chairman, I observe it is three or four minutes to five. I wish to deal with one question under this item. I wish to launch a full scale attack on the superintendent's administration of Revelstoke park when time is available. The question of historic sites for which we are voting $160,700

interests me. Will the minister inform the committee whether any of this vote is being used for the restoration of steamers on the Yukon river?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: No, Mr. Chairman. Nothing under this item is used for that purpose. The money voted under this item is used entirely for winter works.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: It is not for any project of that kind?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: No, it is exclusively our winter works program.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, I wish to say something briefly that is quite relevant to winter works. I had some correspondence with the minister about the employment policy in the Terra Nova national park. I was rather disappointed that the minister to whose letter I admit I have not had time up to now to give a considered reply, because it was a long letter which I suspect the minister had a lot of help in writing, which I do not have-


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I did it all myself.


John Whitney Pickersgill: The minister is straining my credulity. I am not saying I do not believe him but I do not think he expects me to believe him because I do not think he means his statement to be taken seriously.
The minister questioned something I had said about the attitude taken by his predecessor. Although I do not wish to waste any time over this I should like to put a brief reference on Hansard. I can give the minister a couple of the references at pages 3536 and 3558 of Hansard of August 14, 1958. I shall read the briefest reference to be found at page 3559 which is a follow up of the earlier references. As I said, I do not wish to take a lot of the time of the committee in raising this question. Although it is a local matter it is one of great importance in the locality.
I was addressing the minister's predecessor, the present Minister of Agriculture, with respect to special preferences in employment in the park and the following exchange occurred as recorded at page 3559:


John Whitney Pickersgill: Perhaps the minister would not mind my interrupting him. He does intend to carry out the policy of giving special preference to those people who made their living previously by cutting in the park, as he told Mr. Keough he would?


Mr. Hamilton (Qu'Appelle):: Yes. I believe that was satisfactorily stated this afternoon.
The point I wish to make is that that assurance had been given by the minister's predecessors. I have looked up the earlier references and can summarize them much more quickly than I can place them on the record by quoting them. What had taken place before. the present government came into office
Education
was largely verbal. I placed that statement on the record. That seems to have been the situation that was accepted by the minister's predecessor and it was well understood in the area.
I know the minister is anxious to do the right thing in this matter. I am not attempting to be at all contentious about this. I wish merely to point out that what I said had a basis in what happened right here in the house.


Paul Raymond Martineau: Order. It being five o'clock, so that the house may proceed to the consideration of private members' business, pursuant to section 3 of standing order 15, it is my duty to rise, report progress and request leave to sit again later this day or at the next sitting of the house as the case may be.
Item stands.
Progress reported.
Resolutions adopted in committee of supply this day reported and concurred in.


Mr. Speaker:: It being five o'clock the house will now proceed to the consideration of private members' business as listed on today's order paper, namely, notices of motions.



EDUCATION


Mr. M. D. Morton (Davenport) moved:: That a special committee of this house, the membership of which to be designated later, be appointed to study how greater assistance for education can be given by the government of Canada within the provisions of the British North America Act and in co-operation with the provinces.
He said: Mr. Speaker, it was about five years ago that this resolution was placed on the order paper and this is the first opportunity I have had to present it to the house. In presenting this resolution I realize that we may be treading on difficult ground perhaps because of the differences of opinion that surround the question of the role the federal government might play in the field of education. I should like to emphasize that this resolution primarily involves the setting up of a committee to study the problem of education within Canada and to make such recommendations as could be carried out within the terms of the British North America Act and in co-operation with the provinces.
Perhaps the most serious criticism of the resolution would be that this house is not the proper forum to set up a committee of this kind and that if such a committee were set up it should not consist of members of the house but of experts outside the house. All I

Education
can say is that I could not present a resolution which would set up a committee outside the house because it would involve the expenditure of money. As a private member I could not present such a resolution and I felt that in order to bring the matter before the house and to emphasize its importance it would be better to do so in this form.
From early history, Mr. Speaker, the federal government has been giving assistance to education. All parties can be given credit for recommending that the federal government give assistance to education. If hon. members wish to go into the history of such assistance I would refer them to the book written by J. C. Miller entitled "National Government and Education in Canada". It sets out how in the early days the federal government found it necessary to give assistance to agriculture through the provision of agricultural colleges and training. At that time the question did arise whether the federal government was intruding in the field of education but I think it was generally accepted that this was not the type of intrusion that was envisaged under the British North America Act. To give a basis, I should like to quote from the introductory part of chapter 1 of Mr. Miller's book where he states:
Rarely, if ever, in the course of human history have relations between political systems and educational policies and procedures been as direct and intimate as they are today.
He states further:
To sum up, government by the whole people best secures the two main objects of all governments- justice and hapiness; justice, because no man or class or group will be strong enough to wrong others; happiness, because each man, judging best what is for his own good, will have every chance of pursuing it. The principles of liberty and equality are justified by the results they yield.
I do not quarrel with the premise set out in the British North America Act. I believe that local administration and control of education should lie with the provinces. There is no serious suggestion anywhere in Canada that the rights of the provinces in the field of education should be encroached upon. However, I feel, as I will discuss a little later, that we have perhaps been placing too narrow an interpretation on the scope that the federal government can take in education. I am strongly of the view that if this country is to succeed we must take a broader view of this matter.
Quite often we have heard people speak in this house and outside it of the necessity of symbols of national unity such as a flag and an anthem, but we can have no outward signs or symbols of unity if we have no real sense of unity of purpose as Canadians and 
if there is no opportunity of exchange between cultures. We cannot build a nation if we proceed in ten separate channels ignoring each other.
Because of the various cultural groups now in our country it is essential that as Canadians we make a new appraisal of the situation to provide the opportunity of retaining the best of all cultures and developing a new culture in Canada which will provide an over-all link between all groups. That does not mean doing away with other cultures but providing an over-all link between the various groups within our country. Although our constitution recognizes that we have a bicultural country, we must also realize that since the last world war there are other large cultural groups in Canada and this we cannot afford to ignore. This should point up the real necessity of providing a common link, and this can be done through education.
We also speak of our great national resources and the great material wealth that could be developed in our country, but here again we need proper and more adequate training available for our people so that we can develop these resources. If we are to become a great nation we must think as a great nation. We must ask, what can be done within the terms of the British North America Act to promote this end. We cannot continue to live in the kind of world and society that we had in 1867 at the time of confederation. We cannot have our growth stunted by the shades of those days. If we are to survive we must grow in the world as it is today. We must meet the problems and challenges of today with all the modern thinking and machinery available. This is just common sense. The fact is that we have too many people who are living in the past with old prejudices and old concepts, and it is time we took a new and broader look.
We may ask, what are some of the general needs we can take a look at? There is the matter of research. There can be no complaint about assistance to universities for this purpose. This would not affect the rights of the provinces. Then there are vocational and technical training, where assistance is now being given, and scholarships. There is the provision of methods of co-ordination without interfering with the administrative responsibilities or cultural guarantees within the provinces.
The fact that it was necessary for public spirited citizens to sponsor the Canadian conference on education on two occasions in my opinion points up one of the symptoms and reasons why the time has come when the federal government must take a national look

at education. These people across the country see the points that need to be co-ordinated. They see the difficulties of continuing separately in a provincial atmosphere at a time when we are trying to build a nation to take its place amongst the other nations of the world.
It may be well at this time to insert in the record the purposes of the conference as set out in a letter dated November 8, 1957 which was addressed to the members of the Senate and House of Commons. I quote:
This conference might be said to represent a decision by educators and others interested in education to take their problems to the people of Canada. They hope to awaken a greater national consciousness of the urgent need for greater educational opportunity in Canada, and for the need to prevent wastage of so much of the nation's human resources. When we couple our educational needs in Canada with the sobering realization of Russian scientific advancement, brought home to every Canadian by the two satellites presently circling the earth, this conference has even greater significance than it had at the time it was conceived.
There has been, perhaps, a difference of opinion as to the success of the Canadian conference on education. However, I think it did bring before the Canadian people the differences in viewpoint in respect of education. I think it did bring home to the Canadian people the importance of education to our nation and the fact that it is a matter of national concern. It is also fair to point out that during the last conference in Quebec it became more apparent that there was a greater realization of the bicultural nature of our educational system as it was first conceived. This basic recognition will provide the opportunity for a greater understanding between the various systems as they are being developed.
The co-ordination of education in Canada has been, to a great extent, left to the Canadian educational association which is made up of the school trustees and leading officials in the field of education throughout all the provinces. This effort is being made on a eo-operative basis within the limited resources the association has for carrying out this coordination.
Now, Mr. Speaker, the legality of being able to broaden out in this field of education in the future depends upon our interpretation of the British North America Act. Section 93 of the act reads:
In and for each province the legislature may exclusively make laws in relation to education, subject and according to the following provisions:
Then, the act sets out four provisions, and they are as follows:
(1) Nothing in any such law shall prejudicially affect any right or privilege with respect to denominational schools which any class of persons have by law in the province at the union:
Education
(2) All the powers, privileges, and duties at the union by law conferred and imposed in Upper Canada on the separate schools and school trustees of the Queen's Roman Catholic subjects shall be and the same are hereby extended to the dissentient schools of the Queen's Protestant and Roman Catholics in Quebec:
Then, paragraphs 3 and 4 set out provisions covering the right of appeal to the governor general in council if any of these sections are violated. I suggest that if we look at education in its historical setting, and examine the dictionary meaning of the word education, we would find that education has two meanings. First, it may mean the totality of experience and, second, the process of instruction. The first meaning is that used in the field of philosophy, whereas the second meaning is the one probably attributed to the word by ordinary people and the statute. If we are successful in arguing for the more restrictive meaning of the word, then it would appear that a fundamental element in education is the existence of a pupil and a teacher or, to put it another way, knowledge or experience being imparted from one person to another. In this case, the word would not include pure or applied research, which is the acquiring of knowledge not by one individual from another individual but rather from the facts or empirical reading.
If we look at the cases that have been decided by our courts, we find that in none of them have the courts actually defined the role of the federal government in education. I think it would be fair to say that at the time of confederation the word "education" had a restricted meaning and related to the manner of instruction. Now, with the broad meaning of education, the federal government would be quite justified in acting as a coordinator and giving assistance to education. I think it is important, at this stage in our history, that we broaden our viewpoint, grow up and mature, so to speak. Today there is a great need in the field of education for research in order to ascertain the skills and obtain the knowledge that would be necessary for the development of our country. This is a real problem because this is a country that is full of resources. If we are not capable of developing these resources ourselves, then those people in the world who are hungry for these resources are not going to sit idly by while we fail to take advantage of the things that we have.
I believe also that in this country we should make opportunities available for every young person who is qualified, and who wants an education, to obtain an education or the training necessary to take his place in society. The lack of money should not be a bar to an education. If we are to rise above our petty prejudices, above our narrow, petty politics and

Education
discontinue the unnatural divisions amongst our people, then we must think in terms of educational institutions which will help us to grow up nationally and internationally. This is the field in which the federal government can give leadership. I trust that for the sake of Canada, its future and its place in the world of today, we will broaden our view as to the place of the federal government in the field of education.


Mr. Walter Pitman (Peterborough):: I am
sure, Mr. Speaker, we are all in accord with the resolution which has been introduced by the hon. member for Davenport. It is a moderate and sensible resolution. I am sure other members will want to speak on it, so I will keep my remarks to a minimum.
As he has suggested, we in this house must concern ourselves more and more with the problem of education at the national level. The main problem, of course, is the fact, as hon. members realize, that this nation dwells under the British North America Act. We have a written constitution which provides that education shall be within the exclusive control of the various provinces.
In a sense, the fathers of confederation were wise. They realized that education should always be very closely related to the parents and that the parents, in the last resort, should have some control over the education which their youngsters were receiving. Yet on the other hand we realize today that this is a very different world. There are certainly no two ways about it: the education which was being dealt with at the conferences in Charlottetown and Quebec is not the education which we are dealing with today.
In 1867 education was regarded as being entirely arts training. It was reading and writing. At the higher levels it was philosophy and literature. Therefore education was entirely concerned with language and religion and therefore, because of the obvious necessity of confederation, education had to be placed within the bounds of provincial control.
Of course today we realize that education has many facets, that it is training in many different areas which have no relationship, or very little relationship, to either language or religion. It means training and education at different levels. Although no one in this house and no party would want to invade or in any way violate the sensibilities of those who are from the province of Quebec, I am sure all of us realize the necessity of taking a very important look at this matter and arriving at a redefinition of education as it relates to the British North America Act.
The second difference that we must consider in the way we look at education and the

way the fathers of confederation looked at it, is that at that time education was a relatively simple and inexpensive matter. So far as the average community was concerned it simply involved building a little school-house, getting a retired army officer to inhabit that school for a few months a year, buying a few books and providing a little bit of wood for the stove. That virtually amounted to the complete expenditure which education really meant to the taxpayers. In a sense it was undemocratic in that those who were more wealthy could send their children off to boarding school or overseas to get further education at a higher level.
Of course today we realize that expenditure on education is probably the most terrifying aspect in any budget, be it municipal or provincial. I am sure all of us coming from different constituencies realize the extent to which the cost of education is concerning those in other levels of government. In 1867 the fathers of confederation, in their wisdom, assigned the taxing powers for education to the various levels of government but now, with this tremendous springing out of education, this taxation problem is completely out of balance.
We must now consider that education involves not only monstrous expenditures but has fantastic implications. The whole problem of work force, employment and unemployment, productivity and our capability to compete with other nations which perhaps have more skilled labour forces, and the whole question of national prosperity, depend on what attention we give to the problem of education.
We have been trying to divide it from the exclusiveness of the British North America Act by various methods and I am sure all hon. members would conclude that this is not the best way of dealing with it. We know that the immigration branch does a great deal in the area of education, as does the Department of Agriculture and the Department of National Health and Welfare. Only last week we spent a great deal of time talking about the extent to which the Department of Labour is concerned with the problem of education.
One does not want to insert a problem of controversy here, but this is what I believe to be the primary problem, that we at the national level are having to give out money to be spent by others at other levels of government without having any control and without being able to give any direction or any purpose to the way in which this money is spent. We are unable to give any direction in terms of priority as to where we think the money should go, and this is the reason why often plans which are well recommended and

are acceptable at the national level do not really do what we expect them to do when they reach the local level.
I shall quote from an article in the Toronto Globe and Mail, written by J. Bascom St. John, who is probably the best known writer on education that we have. It is headed "Interference by Ottawa", and I should like to read a few paragraphs from it:
We are not objecting to the use of national revenues for the assistance and advancement of education. In the university field, the government's financial support is an obligation.
It is another thing, however, when without consultation and without constitutional responsibility, the Ottawa government offers a huge sum-so large that Ontario alone may be given $75,000,000-
That is a very conservative estimate because we know already it is $124 million:
-to build technical and trade schools throughout the country. If, with the Ontario government's share, which is another $25,000,000, the whole amount were to be spent, it would be equal to more than a third of all that has been spent on school building since the war, in this province.
The effect of this gigantic financial pressure is to tip over the balance of the traditional educational program, and force it into a practical groove which hitherto the people of this province have not urgently wanted.
In other words, by spending money so often we may affect education when we do not want to. I shall conclude by reading other paragraphs:
We are not opposed to dominion government participation in the financing of education. It is a matter of national necessity that more money be provided for education, and this source is the logical one. However, Ottawa should not pick and choose what education it will support, laying down specific terms which must be met before the money is forthcoming, as it is doing with these technical schools, and as the provincial government is letting it do.
This is interference of the most blatant sort in the constitutional rights of the provinces in the field of education.
It goes on to say:
They should reject the money on these terms. But, if for the sake of the future of the national economy, or the security of the country, or for any other good reason, the dominion government should participate in educational financing, it ought to do so in a proper, constitutional manner.
There ought to be a legal contract between the dominion government and the provinces, and it ought to be framed so the provinces continue to control education.
That is important.
However, it ought also to provide for national planning of education, co-ordination of policies and programs, establishment of broad aims and means.
I am sure that is what the hon. member who moved the motion hopes would happen, that we would be able to establish broad national aims, and set our aims to meet what we are trying to do.
This was certainly recognized at the Canadian conference on education, which the hon.
Education
member mentioned, at which there were several resolutions which indicated the necessity for a greater responsibility at the federal level.
In the Toronto daily Star of Wednesday, March 7, there is an article headed "Ottawa urged to set up department of education". It reads:
Canada should have a federal department of education, two teachers said yesterday at the Canadian conference on education.
Max Bedford, Saskatoon teachers college professor, said the nation could start with a national advisory committee to the federal cabinet, later work up to a ministry.
There is another headline "Ottawa 'must' pay part of costs of education". This is a Canadian Press dispatch and it reads:
Constitution or no, the federal government must pay some of the costs of education.
That was the obvious sentiment that emerged from the five day discussions of the second Canadian conference on education.
Dr. Penfield, who is very well known in this field, and who was the principal speaker at the conference, was quoted in an article headed "Penfield urges national forum for education"-


Edwin William Brunsden: Never mind the headlines. Read the article. The headlines are written by people who don't know.


Walter George Pitman: I do not want to take up the time of the house in reading these articles as I realize there are other hon. members who wish to speak. I hope the motion now before the house will be passed. We must deal with the problem of education at the national level. We must gain a measure of efficiency in what I think it the most important resource that we have in this nation, the minds of our young people.


Mr. H. M. Batten (Humber-St. George's):: Mr. Speaker, I think it is timely to have a discussion on a resolution of this type and I commend the hon. gentleman for proposing the resolution to the house. I suppose it is true that across this country people are generally aware that constitutionally and traditionally education has been the business of the provinces. However, I think we have reached the stage in this country when we must recognize the fact that, while education is the responsibility of the different provinces, there is at the same time a national aspect to it.
I hope the time will come when, even though education is under the control of the different provinces, we reach the point of being able to say that there is something Canadian about our own education. Over the years people in different countries have come to respect, for example, the educational system in Britain. There is something distinctly

Education
British about their system. In exactly the same way many of our medical men, for example, go to universities in Europe because these universities have a special importance in particular fields. I believe these universities have derived their importance from the national system of education in which they exist.
Therefore I say again that I hope the time will come when, even though education is the responsibility of the provinces, there will be something distinctly Canadian about our own education.
I support the idea of this committee and I believe there is a job for it to do. In the western world today I think education faces a greater challenge than it has ever faced. I do not think education has to take on a too practical line; I do not think it must be too practical in its aspect. I think it has a broader meaning than that. A knowledge and a sense of education at this time is very fundamental to our own survival. I am not going to delve into this problem too deeply, Mr. Speaker, but it is an interesting one to discuss and to realize the part that education can play in the survival of the western world.
While education is the responsibility of the provincial governments, I think in this country we have reached the time when it should become the responsibility of all levels of government and all people. We often hear the phrase, "Education is everybody's business". One could put up a pretty good argument in favour of that proposition; there is also an equally good argument against it. I believe that education is the business of everybody who has some particular interest in education. However, there are two sides to the question of education. There is the practice of education, and there is the plant and equipment required for the practice of education. If the federal government does not want to interfere in the practice of education and the different provinces are to have their own systems, then certainly the federal government could assist in providing the plant, materials and equipment required for the practice of education. Only by doing this can we bring education across this country in the various provinces up to some acceptable level.
I think democracy is an experiment; I think it is an experiment in faith; I think it is an experiment in the faith that free people are able to protect themselves and preserve their own way of life. I do not think we have proved this yet. But I think that if we can build within our own minds a respect for knowledge, a sense of learning and the feeling that an individual can be a part of the whole and can at the same

time be different, then we have taken a considerable step forward toward preserving our own democracy.


Edwin William Brunsden: Mr. Speaker, would the hon. member permit a question?


Herman Maxwell Batten: Yes.


Edwin William Brunsden: Does the hon. member
suggest by his remarks that this government has not played a part in building plants and equipment?


Herman Maxwell Batten: Mr. Speaker, I made no such suggestion. I suspect that my hon. friend is referring to moneys that were allocated a few days ago in this house, about which I do not suppose I am able to say very much. But if the hon. gentleman were to go back over the debates in this house over the years he would find there have been very, very few occasions when the question of vocational and technical training has come up in this chamber and it did not receive my fullest support.
I am not much interested in which government does what, but I am interested in the support of education. I am not much concerned about who gets the credit, but I am concerned about the results. Therefore I say to my hon. friend that if he has surmised from my remarks that I have not given the present government full credit for what they have done, I can assure him that I did not intend to do so. I can also assure him that I will continue to support vocational and technical education and any other form of education that we feel is required to help the young people of this country become good Canadians.


Edwin William Brunsden: Thank you very much.


Herman Maxwell Batten: I think one big problem we have across this country is the question of equality of opportunity. In the different provinces we have different systems of education. I think it is fair to say that the system in some provinces may offer better opportunities to their young people than the system in others.
This would not be a very easy problem to solve. I think that if this committee were set up, as the proposer of this resolution has suggested, perhaps one of the things it could study would be what can be done to equalize opportunity across this country and how it can be done, while at the same time preserving those things in each provincial system of education which the people in that province think important.
For example, there are certain things in the educational system of Newfoundland which I would like to see preserved. There are some things in the system of education in Ontario and all the other provinces which the people of those provinces would like to preserve. At the same time there is a national thread through education which I think should

be strengthened so as to give, as I said in the beginning, some national characteristic to our education.
I think one big job that needs to be done across this country is to give to our Canadian people-I do not know a good name for it, but offhand I would call it a sense of learning. After world war II I had the opportunity of dealing with a limited number of young people who came from countries in Europe. Without exception these people brought with them a sense of learning which, while I should not say it was greater than the Canadian student possessed-because at that time I did not know the Canadian student,- certainly was a more intense sense of learning than was found among Newfoundlanders. They had a greater respect for learning; they had a greater yearning to know these things, and they had a greater respect for those who did know.
I think one of the things we have to build up across this country is a sense of learning for its own sake. It has to be done by all forms of government; it has to be done by educational institutions, churches, organizations and everything else; it has to be done by the fathers and mothers. Until we can build across our own country this sense of learning we will never achieve what I hope we will achieve, that Canadian characteristic of education which is so really wanting in this country. I believe this committee could do a great deal to develop this sense of learning among our Canadian people.
Of course, in the higher fields of learning in the universities the federal government over the years has done a great deal to increase opportunities for Canadian students. In my opinion, as time goes on these opportunities will increase until we reach a point at which every young Canadian who has the brains and the ability to complete a university course successfully will have the opportunity of doing so. The federal government is playing its part in this field, and rightly so. Time was in my own province when we had no graduate university and the students had to go to universities in other provinces in order to get a university education. It is true they paid their fees, but even so they were taking advantage of an educational system provided by people living in a province other than their own. Even in that sense, education becomes national, and that is one of the reasons why four or five years ago I approved the action of the federal government in giving support to our universities in Canada. I say again, I hope we are still far below the peak of what will be given to our universities to enable young Canadians to have a
Education
chance of availing themselves of opportunities in these fields of higher learning.
I should like to ask the hon. member one question. In part of his remarks he referred to the composition of a committee. I did not hear exactly what he said. Did he say it should be composed of members of this chamber or of people outside?


Murray Douglas Morton: Members of this chamber.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Thank you very much. (Translation):


Mr. Maurice Allard (Sherbrooke):: Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this resolution is to suggest that a special committee be appointed to make precise, clear and constitutional proposals on the important matter of education.
We know that the federal government looks especially after naval and military schools and that its authority extends over territories coming under its jurisdiction, such as the Yukon and the Northwest Territories.
Moreover, we find that the federal government made possible certain cultural exchanges on an international level and applied itself to play a part in the field of scientific research, especially with regard to certain jurisdictions defined in section 91 of the British North America Act, such as national defence, civil defence and public health.
The federal government also provides technical assistance to the provinces regarding labour; the responsibility in this field was entrusted to the federal government.
As was pointed out by the mover of the motion under consideration, section 93 also provides an exception under which minorities in a province submitted to discrimination, may appeal to the governor in council who then makes a ruling. In case of non-compliance with this ruling, parliament may implement remedial legislation.
It follows from the list of points I have just given that the federal government may, under the powers conferred by section 91 of the British North America Act, legislate in that field by exception and in a limited way.
Many members have pointed out that the problems we are faced with in 1962, especially material and economic problems, are different from those of 1867. Indeed, that is the opinion I have expressed in this house, on several instances, when I stated that the B.N.A. Act should be amended because today's economic situation is not the same as that of 1867.
At that time, the fathers of confederation, the intellectuals and various groups of Canadians inserted in our constitution a very definite and fundamental section. It was for

Education
that reason that our compatriots from Lower Canada, namely the province of Quebec, agreed to join confederation; it was precisely because section 93 of the constitution provided that education would come under the exclusive jurisdiction of the provinces.
Mr. Speaker, with regard to those exceptions pointed out previously, and to the interpretation which has been widened in all directions since, I would refer the house to a ruling of the Supreme Court of Canada, which I have already quoted here on June 22, 1961. It is a 1938 ruling, stating that the word "education", in section 93, must be interpreted in its wider sense.
The confusion which prevails at the moment has been brought about by the Ottawa Liberal government, which has governed the affairs of this country for 22 years and which, particularly after world war II, when it had to hand back to the provinces their taxation fields and powers, wanted to keep the upper hand on those powers, like some dictatorial paterfamilias in order to be able to distribute them wisely, it claimed, according to its own views.
Furthermore, having too much money at its disposal, it had to intervene in fields coming exclusively within provincial jurisdiction.
In my humble opinion, the problem is not hard to solve. The federal government should hand back to the provinces their taxation powers, so that they may be able to deal with those matters coming exclusively under their jurisdiction.
We have enough problems here in Ottawa both in the national and international field to keep our minds busy. Therefore, we should leave to the provinces the fields that belong to their exclusive jurisdiction.
That is the spirit in which this government has introduced a part of its legislation. In fact, it has amended a regulation concerning grants to universities in accordance with the intent of section 93 and more particularly as far as the province of Quebec is concerned-a province not like the others. Quebec has different culture and traditions of its own and wishes to join with the rest of the country while preserving its real and very distinct entity.
This is a very important problem for the citizens of the province of Quebec and whatever the government in power, whether it be the Union Nationale or the Liberal party, it must be settled to the satisfaction of all.
The present Quebec premier, who, while he was a federal cabinet member, managed to intervene in a field of provincial jurisdiction. Fallen now from the position he enjoyed at the federal level to settle down at the provincial level, as premier of my province,
he has become the champion of the exclusive rights of the provinces, and would now like to destroy the idols which he himself contributed to erect.
We have a new fiscal formula. The Prime Minister (Mr. Diefenbaker), the Minister of Finance (Mr. Fleming) and the present government are preaching in favour of a decentralization effort, not a huge one, since, five years hence, the provinces will be handed back only 20 per cent of the taxes levied by the federal government. But just the same, it is a step in the right direction and that is why an editorialist of Le Devoir wrote that those provinces which really wish to recover their fiscal liberty should be glad of that formula, because they will find in it the spirit of the confederative pact.
I read recently in the newspapers that the hon. member for Laurier (Mr. Chevrier)

who, of course, belonged to the Liberal government, in power during 22 years-still advocates a formula which would allow more intrusion into an exclusively provincial field. This is what he said:
If we are brought back into power, the Liberal party in Ottawa will grant 10,000 scholarships of $1,000 each to students across the country.
He explains that these scholarships would not be given directly by the federal government to the students, but through the Canadian universities foundation. That is a con-demnable intrusion which surely goes against the spirit of the confederative pact, and especially against clause 93 of the constitution.
Instead of going back, instead of accepting a readjustment or of recognizing that the federal government has interfered where it had no business, the hon. member for Laurier continues to advocate an unconstitutional policy.
He may be surprised to note that this attitude is condemned by different newspapers admittedly sympathetic to the Liberals, in the province of Quebec. May I quote briefly in this regard the conclusions drawn in an article by Mr. Pierre-Paul Blais, editor of the newspaper La Tribune of Sherbrooke, on March 13, 1962:
What cannot be accepted in the field of grants to universities is no more acceptable in the field of scholarships to students. This new plank in the Liberal party platform is a threat of federal intrusion in the field of education and a new encroachment upon the autonomy of the provinces.
Mr. Speaker, I think the principle of this resolution is excellent. At last, it tends to allow discussion in the field of education and federal jurisdiction, that is, the spirit of section 93, which will involve final adjustments that will allow our young Canadians to get a start in life with the best possible education.

(Text):


Mr. D. R. Gundlock (Lethbridge):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to compliment the hon. member for Davenport for bringing this resolution before the house. It is not only needed but long overdue. Much has been said here about higher and lower education and all facets of education. In my travels across this country and in my experience in the field of education at all levels I see only a spirit of co-operation among all levels of government whether federal, provincial or municipal. I have never encountered any criticism of a suggestion of this kind.
In my experience the main reason for the introduction of a resolution of this nature is simply that we must have a basic standard. Reference is made to various standards on higher, medium or lower levels but certainly it is logical that we have a basic standard of education. Where it comes from and how it is arrived at are questions which in my opinion are beside the point. The adoption of this resolution could well be a stepping stone toward the realization of this necessary standard.
I wish to say a few words about one of the problems leading to the need of a basic standard for all Canadian students regardless of geographic and financial differences. In this day and age with communications and transportation as they are and with the demands and pressures of a fluctuating and mobile society it not infrequently happens that a student is moved from one part of a nation to another sometimes within the school year. Not just dozens or hundreds but literally thousands of students are affected. For this reason it is important that there be a basic standard.
I heard one hon. member say this afternoon that students should be close to their parents while attending school and I agree with that statement. That is an added reason for making provision in this field. Again I emphasize that there are thousands of students who should be close to their parents while receiving their education. A basic standard is needed.
Business of the House
I cannot agree with the suggestion concerning equalization which one hon. member advanced. I feel, however, there should be at least the basic standard so students do not lose out through transferring from one community to another. This resolution could well precipitate thinking at all levels of government. I see no difference of opinion on this subject among the parties represented in this house or among levels of government across the land.
Someone referred to Quebec a few moments ago. To me this is an outstanding example. I am thinking of a student who comes from a western province to attend university in Quebec. He was not qualified to enter university in a western province because he lacked certain marks in the French language, but in Quebec with a different standard he could attend university and complete his education. That illustration also serves to emphasize my contention that we must arrive at a basic standard of education for Canadian students regardless of financial or geographic differences.


Some hon. Members:: Six o'clock.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, perhaps I should find out whether the house leader feels that the government is resolute enough to go on with the supplementary estimates?


Mr. Churchill:: We are willing to face up to any situation. The supplementary estimates will be taken up tomorrow, commencing with those of the department of northern affairs.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I suggest to the house leader that more progress would be made if he could somewhat restrain his own followers from taking so much time in debate.


[Stage Direction]
At six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[Stage Direction]
Supply-Items Passed [The following items were passed in committee of supply]:

[Stage Direction]
A-Department-
Administration services-
Departmental administration-
637.	Administration, operation and maintenance- further amount required, $65,000.
638.	Acquisition of common-use field survey and other equipment-further amount required, $187,000.
Surveys and mapping branch-
Canadian hydrographic service-
639.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment-further amount required, $50,000.
Geological survey of Canada-
640.	Administration, operation and maintenance- further amount required, $75,000.
Dominion observatories-
Dominion observatory, Ottawa and field stations-
641.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment-further amount required, $60,450.
General-
642. Polar continental shelf	project-further amount required, $16,400.
B-Dominion coal board-
643.	Payments in connection with movements of coal under conditions prescribed by the governor in council-further amount required, $4,800,000.