1962-10-31

Mr. Speaker:: Order. Allow me to delay the routine proceedings of the house to point out to the hon. members the presence in the Speaker's gallery of a delegation from Dahomey.
That delegation, presided by His Excellency Dr. Emile Derlin Zinsou, Minister of Foreign Affairs of Dahomey, is composed of: His Excellency Mr. Louis Ignacio-Pinto, the permanent representative of Dahomey at the United Nations; His Excellency Dr. Nicolas Eouagnignon, the ambassador of Dahomey to Haiti; Mr. Frangois Covi, a member of the national assembly of Dahomey and chairman of the finance committee of that assembly; and Mr. Jules Laventure, secretary general of the ministry of foreign affairs.
These distinguished visitors will be in Canada for four days. They are visiting the capital today, and tomorrow they will go to Montreal and then to Quebec city.
I deeply regret that our Canadian capital is not in a position to welcome them better, on account of the weather, but since they have come to the snow country, we are able to give them ample evidence of what it is.
On behalf of the hon. members of the house I should like to welcome them and wish them a pleasant stay in Canada.
(Text):
May I interrupt the proceedings of the house to indicate to hon. members the presence in the Speaker's gallery of a delegation from Dahomey, headed by His Excellency Dr. Emile Derlin Zinsou, Minister of Foreign Affairs of Dahomey. He is accompanied by His Excellency Louis Ignacio-Pinto, the permanent representative of Dahomey to the United Nations; His Excellency Dr. Nicolas Eouagnignon, the ambassador of Dahomey to Haiti, and Mr. Frangois Covi, who is a member of the national assembly and president of the finance commission of the national assembly of Dahomey, as well as Mr. Jules Laventure, who is secretary general of the ministry of foreign affairs.
These distinguished visitors are in Canada for the first time. They are here on a four
day tour of Ottawa, Montreal and Quebec city. I am sure that we all extend to them a very hearty welcome and wish them well on their tour of Canada. I hope that perhaps the weather will clear up to make their visit a little more entertaining.



CONTINUATION OF ASSISTANCE ON SHIPMENTS TO JAPAN

Hon. Paul Martineau (Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to advise the house that during the 12 months commencing April 1, 1963, it is the government's intention to provide assistance on the movement to Japan of a limited tonnage of coal from western Canadian mines. This assistance will be at a maximum rate of $3.15 per ton, which is lower than the $3.50 maximum at present in effect. This provision is a continuation of the experimental investigation and development of this market undertaken some four years ago. The reports of the dominion coal board for 1957-58 and succeeding years outline this market development.
These show that starting with a trial delivery of some 48,000 tons in 1957-58, the quality of the coal was so acceptable that by
1959-60 some 263,000 tons were exported at a cost of $4.43 per ton in assistance. I should say here that an important part in this development was the dispatch to Japan of a technical mission composed of senior scientific officers of my department whose function it was to review, with the Japanese experts, the types and qualities of coal best adapted to their requirements. This was so successful that in 1960-61 some 677,000 tons were delivered and in 1961-62, 702,000 tons. These movements were assisted at a rate of $4.50 per ton. In the current year it is estimated that 700,000 tons will move at the reduced rate of assistance of $3.50 per ton, while next year the shipments will be in the order of
750,000	tons at $3.15 per ton.
The continued reduction in the rate of assistance from the earlier high of $4.50 per ton is evidence of the success of this experiment to date. The successive reductions have been due to the effective and continued efforts of the producers and the miners, supplemented by reduced handling rates by the railways

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and the loading piers. Also, since the payment is made in U.S. funds the devaluation of the Canadian dollar has been a factor of considerable importance. If this trend continues it could be an element of some importance in any future consideration.



QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)
department of transport plane "jetstar"
['No jet replacement for the Banshee fighter has been obtained for H.M.C.S. Bonaventure, but it is planned to provide other ships in the R.C.N. with a surface to air capability.']
Mr. McBain:: 1. January 29, 1962, at a contract price of $1,136,000.
2.	During a flight on February 28, 1962, ice was ingested through the engine air intake damaging all blades of the first stage compresser on each of four engines. The engines were removed and shipped to the overhaul facility for complete inspection and repair and following repairs were reinstalled on April 20, 1962. Following incident reports of minor ground fires on two early production model Jetstars, Lockheed required a complete electrical inspection of all aircraft of this type. The department's Jetstar was flown to Lockheed air service at Idlewild, in New York, on May 9, 1962, and following complete inspection and rework was returned to service on July 24, 1962.
3.	The cost involved in the inspection and overhaul of the four jet engines amounted to $34,418.79. There was no cost to the department covering the work involved in the complete electrical inspection and rework.
4.	The aircraft is presently in operational use.
additional facilities for processing



Mr. Crestohl: 1.	Since 1957, what steps were taken by the Department of Citizenship and Immigration to provide additional facilities abroad for processing immigrants to Canada?
2.	Where, when, and to what extent were these additional facilities, if any, provided?


Mr. McGee:: 1. Since 1957, immigration offices in certain posts abroad were relocated in the same centres for the purpose of meeting additional staff requirements, improving accessibility to prospective immigrants, providing increased facilities for their examination and, in the case of three of these posts,
[Mr. Martineau.l
namely, Helsinki, London and New Delhi, for the purpose of accommodating all Canadian federal government representatives in one building. Listed below are the posts affected, with the dates on which they were relocated:
Post
Athens
Belfast
Berlin
Berne
Dublin
Hamburg
Helsinki
Hong Kong
Liverpool
London
New Delhi
Stockholm
Tel Aviv
Date
May 1, 1959 August 1, 1958 September 1, 1959 October 1, 1958 April 1, 1960 December 31, 1961 August 30, 1962 May 1, 1961 November 11, 1962 September 25, 1961 April 1, 1959 May 1, 1959 August 15, 1958
Since 1957, new offices were opened in the following centres on the dates shown:
Post
Bristol
Leeds
Lisbon
New York
Chicago
Denver
San Francisco
Date
January 7, 1957 July 15, 1957 January 23, 1957 May 1, 1957 May 1, 1957 November 29, 1961 May 1, 1961
The offices at Bristol and Leeds were established to provide additional examination and counselling facilities to prospective migrants from the United Kingdom; the office at Lisbon to accommodate the increasing flow of migrants from Portugal, Spain and the Azores. The primary purpose of the establishment of the offices in the United States was to promote immigration to Canada from that country and to provide information and advice to persons interested in establishing themselves in Canada.
In addition, since 1957, immigration teams have visited refugee camps in Austria, Italy, Yugoslavia, North Africa and the United Arab Republic for the purpose of selecting and examining applicants for admission to Canada. For the same purpose, an immigration officer has been stationed in Cairo for the past seven months and, earlier this year, an immigration team was sent to the West Indies.
2. See 1.


CLARENVILLE, NFLD.-MARINE HAUL-OUT
Mr. Tucker: Have any steps been taken by the Department of Transport to construct a marine haul-out at Clarenville, Newfoundland, and, if so, what are the details in respect of such action?


James Alexander McBain: Yes. Some components were purchased this year and the main estimates for next year contain funds required to complete the main haul-out section and permit drydocking to be carried out, and the transfer system and fitting out wharf will be completed at a later date.


INCIDENCE OF TUBERCULOSIS
Mr. Howard: Is the incidence of tuberculosis, both by new active and reactivated cases, increasing in (a) Canada (b) each of the provinces (c) each of the territories; and, if so, by what degree in each case?


Mrs. Casselman:: Tuberculosis incidence is measured through returns of provincial divisions of communicable disease control as part of the national notifiable disease reporting system. No distinction was maintained between active, inactive or reactivated cases in this notification system prior to 1961. However a rough estimate of the incidence of new active and reactivated cases based on analysis of the admission and discharge records of patients can be obtained from sanatorium statistics. The attached tables show the number and rates of active tuberculous first admissions and active tuberculous readmissions
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in Canada, provinces and Northwest Territories for 1956 to 1960. Yukon statistics are not available for this period.
It will be seen that the total of active new cases and reactivated cases admitted to sanatoria in Canada has shown a steady decrease for each year since 1956.
Active tuberculous first admission rates show an increase for 1960 in four provinces, Newfoundland, Prince Edward Island, New Brunswick and Saskatchewan. However, the increases are very slight and are contrary to the general trend in these provinces. Similarly, the slight increases shown in the rates for 1961 in Prince Edward Island, Nova Scotia, Quebec and British Columbia may be ascribed to the inclusion in the notification system for the first time of cases not admitted to sanatoria but treated on a domiciliary basis.
Active tuberculous readmission rates show a decline in all provinces except New Brunswick which shows an insignificant increase in 1960. In 1961, dramatic declines appear to have taken place in the rates for reactivated tuberculosis. This is probably more apparent than real for in 1961, for the first time, the definition of a "reactivated case" was changed and to be included in this category required documentation of previous activity.
[Mrs. Casselman.l


TABLE I
[Stage Direction]
Canada	Nfld.	P.E.I.	N.S.	N.B.	Que.	Ont.	Man.	Sask.	Alta.	B.C.	Yukon	N.W.T.1956	7,750	568	38	349	352	2,633	1,856	399	329	480	686	-	601957	7,539	491	37	323	405	2,474	1,843	424	332	502	627	-	811958	7,042	486	46	372	393	2,258	1,735	352	307	478	369	-	461959	5,988	437	33	258	303	1,927	1,374	265	239	499	565	-	881960	5,621	487	34	192	349	1,882	1,167	242	304	491	418	-	551961*	5,784	379	39	225	283	2,141	1,160	240	197	415	603	14	88

[Stage Direction]
1956	48.2	136.9	38.4	50.2	63.4	56.9	34.3	46.9	87.3	42.7	49.0	-	315.81957	46.9	115.2	37.4	46.0	71.7	52.0	32.8	49.3	37.8	43.3	42.2	-	426.31958	41.3	110.9	46.0	52.4	68.1	46.2	29.9	40.4	34.6	39.8	23.9	-	230.01959	34.3	97.3	32.3	36.0	51.3	38.5	23.1	29.9	26.5	40.1	36.0	-	419.01960	31.5	106.1	33.0	26.5	58.2	36.8	19.2	26.9	33.4	38.3	26.0	-	250.01961*	28.1	82.8	37.3	30.5	47.3	40.7	18.6	26.0	21.3	31.2	37.0	95.9	382.6
The 1961 figures include new active cases treated outside hospital and are therefore not strictly comparable to previous years shown.
1124	HOUSE OF COMMONS
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[Stage Direction]
Canada	Nfld.	P.E.I.	N.S.	N.B.	Que.	Ont.	Man.	Sask.	Alta.	B.C.	Yukon	N.W.T.1956	3,151	181	23	193	139	964	709	205	200	171	353	-	131957	2,986	175	12	156	127	930	662	180	182	211	336	-	151958	2,729	130	17	166	120	1,081	577	166	146	148	229	-	121959	2,442	149	18	147	98	845	468	146	156	180	214	-	211960	2,160	142	13	136	105	728	411	109	142	181	183	-	101961*	845	45	13	84	79	-	320	60	39	79	110	3	13RATES PER 100,000 POPULATION	1956	19.6	43.6	23.2	27.8	25.0	20.8	13.1	24.1	22.7	15.2	25.2	-	68.41957	18.0	41.1	12.1	22.2	22.5	19.5	11.8	20.9	20.7	18.2	22.6	-	78.91958	16.0	29.7	17.0	23.4	20.8	22.1	9.9	19.1	16.4	12.3	14.8	-	60.01959	14.0	33.2	17.6	20.5	16.6	16.9	7.9	16.5	17.3	14.5	13.6	-	100.01960	12.1	30.9	12.6	18.8	17.5	14.2	6.7	12.1	15.6	14.1	11.4	-	45.41961*	6.5	9.8	12.4	11.4	13.2	5.1	6.5	4.2	5.9	6.8	56.5
* The 1961 figures include reactivated cases treated outside hospital and are therefore not strictly comparable to previous years shown.

Questions
[Stage Direction]
Questions

Miss LaMarsh: 1.	What control, if any, did the national gallery of Canada exercise over the selection of exhibits in a collection of paintings, loaned for display by Walter Chrysler, Jr., entitled The Controversial Century 1850-1950?
2.	Did any official of the national gallery receive a warning or admonition respecting the authenticity of any of the works exhibited and, if so, who gave the warning, who received it, and when?
3.	If the answer to part 2 is yes, what, if any, investigation into authenticity was made by the national gallery before lending the gallery's prestige to that display?
4.	What, if any, investigation into authenticity was made or is being made by the national gallery of the works, galleries, dealers and experts, cited in the official catalogue, respecting disputed works, before lending the gallery's prestige to the publication of the catalogue and, in particular:
(a)	respecting the paintings attributed to Georges Seurat, "Croqueton pour 'La Grande Jatte' ", "Seated Figure of a Man and Woman", "Seated Man on Bank of River", (i) was any investigation made of the record of the alleged sale by the "Hotel Drouot" (ii) are the paintings listed in the Dorra-Rewald catalogue of Seurat's works published in 1961;
(b)	respecting the paintings attributed to Alfred Sisley, "Maisons a Veneux-Nadon, en etc" and "Winter Landscape" (i) was any investigation made of the alleged collection of "Laurent, Nantes, France" and of "Trotti and Co., Paris" (ii) are these paintings listed in Daulte's definitive catalogue of Sisley works published in 1959;
(c)	respecting the painting attributed to Hilaire Germain Edgar Degas, "Sketch of a Young Girl", was any investigation made of the alleged collection of "Lucien LeFebure-Foiret, Paris";
(d)	respecting a painting attributed to Andre Derain, "Landscape with Tree", was any investigation made of the alleged collection of "A. Bien, Paris";
(e)	respecting the painting attributed to Jean Desire Gustave Courbet, "Still Life with Pottery", was any investigation made of the alleged collection of "Coulette, Paris";
(f)	respecting the paintings attributed to Claude Oscar Monet, "Une Partie du Portail de la Cathe-drale de Rouen" and "Notre Dame de Neige", was any investigation made (i) that they in fact came from the collection, as alleged, of "Etienne Moreau-Neloton, Paris" (ii) of the alleged collection of "William Guillaume, Paris, 1949" (iii) of the alleged experts "J. Subert" and "Maurice Marignane, Paris";
(g)	respecting the paintings attributed to Berthe Morisot, "Jeune Fille avec Chapeau" and "Jeune Fille dans le Jardin", do the paintings appear in the Bataille-Wildenstein catalogue of the works of Morisot;
(h)	respecting the paintings attributed to Pierre Auguste Renoir, "Still Life" and "On Leave", was any investigation made of the alleged collection of "Leonard Cauparde, Paris, 1961" and "William Guillaume, Paris, 1949";
(i)	respecting the painting attributed to Pablo Ruiz y Picasso, "Cubist Composition", was any investigation made of the alleged collection of "M. Bien, Paris, 1958";
(j)	was any investigation made respecting one "Louis Aertz", or of a gallery of that name, alleged to be located in Paris, respecting the authentication of "The Yellow Christ" attributed to Maurice Denis, "Christ and Disciples on the Road to Emmaus" attributed to Georges Rouault, "Vase of Flowers" attributed to Jean Edouard Vuillard and "Winter Landscape" attributed to Alfred Sisley;

(k)	respecting the painting attributed to Honors Daumier, "Character Study", was any investigation made that it did in fact come from a collection, as alleged, of "Peter Hawkins, Paris, 1962";
(l)	respecting the painting attributed to Roger Noel Francois de La Fresnaye, "White Houses on Hill", was any investigation made that it did in fact come from a collection, as alleged, of "Low-man, Paris, 1949";
(m)	respecting the painting attributed to Camille Jacob Pissarro, "Le Village", was any investigation made that it did in fact come from a collection as alleged of "Mr. Mayer, Paris, 1949"?
5.	When returned to the United States, what obligation, if any, will the gallery incur for payment of duty or replacement value of the disputed paintings?
6.	What was the cost to the national gallery of Canada of shipping, insuring, and displaying these disputed works?


Frank Charles McGee: 1. The exhibition "The Controversial Century 1850-1950" was offered to the national gallery of Canada as a "package deal" by Mr. Walter P. Chrysler, Jr., of New York city. Apart form a specific request made for five major works, the only control attempted was in the matter of numbers, in order to accommodate this exhibition in the display area of the national gallery.
2.	Yes. Dr. Comfort received a telephone call at his residence from Dr. Evan H. Turner of the Montreal museum of fine art on the evening of August 22, 1962, during which it was intimated that there might be doubt about the authenticity of some of the paintings in the "Controversial Century" exhibition.
3.	In view of the international reputation of the Walter P. Chrysler art collection, of which the "Controversial Century" exhibition is only a part, and because of the very favourable reviews of the exhibition, including John Canaday's in the New York Times of Sunday June 17, immediately after the final opening at the Chrysler art museum of Provincetown, no intensive investigation into the authenticity of the paintings was deemed to be necessary.
4.	No investigation was made, or is being made, into the authenticity of the works cited under items (a) to (m). The research, editing and designing of the catalogue were carried out under the direct supervision of Mr. Chrysler, and the first copy was received by the national gallery of Canada on July 19. No mention of specific paintings as being of doubtful authenticity was made until the publication of Mr. Canaday's second review of the exhibition in the New York Times on Sunday, October 14, two weeks after it opened in Ottawa.
5.	None.
6.	Final costs cannot be determined with absolute accuracy until all charges including return transportation have been accounted for.


*P.E.I. CAUSEWAY  COST OF STUDIES
Mr. Rideout: 1.	What was the cost to the government of Canada of all studies or surveys made by the government or for the government in each of the fiscal years 1957-1962 to discover the economic and technical feasibility of a P.E.I.-mainland causeway or tunnel?
2.	How much was expended between April 1, 1962, and September 30, 1962, for such studies or surveys?


Mr. McCleave:: 1. The cost to the government of Canada of all studies or surveys made by the government or for the government in each of the fiscal years 1957-1962 to discover the economic and technical feasibility of a P.E.I.-mainland causeway or tunnel was as follows:
Fiscal Year	Amount
1957- 58	$ 10,388.41
1958-	59	
349,810.001959-	60	
155,277.101960-	61	
8,931.151961-	62	
9,820.96
2. Expenditure for such studies or surveys between April 1, 1962 and September 30, 1962 was $828.75. However, provision has been made in the main estimates 1962-63 for funds for engineering services leading to the preparation of actual working plans and engineering firms have been appointed for this purpose.
agreements under arda


Mr. Martin (Essex East): 1.	What provinces, through their signature on agreements with the federal government have committed themselves to the spending of any money under the Agricultural Rehabilitation and Development Act?
2.	Has any provincial government approved any individual project to develop rural areas and resources or are the agreements of a general nature only?
3.	Has the federal government approved any one individual project to develop rural areas and resources?
4.	Has the federal government authorized the Minister of Agriculture to ask parliament for any money for any particular project under the Agricultural Rehabilitation and Development Act and, if so, do any of the proposed expenditures appear in any estimate now before parliament?
5.	Has any provincial government asked for approval of the expenditure of any money in any project under the Agricultural Rehabilitation and Development Act?
6.	Does the government intend to contribute $50,000,000 for the purpose of this act over the next three years and, if so, what projects will be covered by such contributions?


Mr. Jorgenson:: 1. All ten provinces have indicated their intent to commit themselves to expenditures under the Agricultural Rehabilitation and Development Act by signing the general agreements tabled in this house on October 15, 1962.
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2.	Five provinces have proposed the undertaking of pilot rural development projects, soil and water conservation projects, alternative land use projects, research projects, community pasture projects, or rural development area studies and individual project agreements for these purposes are now being prepared.
3.	Yes.
4.	The federal government has authorized the Minister of Agriculture to include an appropriate item in the supplementary estimates for the current year for the purpose of financing commitments undertaken within the terms of the general agreement.
5.	Yes. See answer to No. 3.
6.	Yes. Projects covered by this contribution will be those of the types contained in the schedules attached to the general agreement tabled in this house on October 15, 1962.
imports of maple trees


Mr. Drouin: 1.	How many maples were imported and planted in Canada, by provinces, during the last fiscal year?
2.	From what countries were they imported?
3.	What was the total price paid by the importers for these trees?


Mr. Nesbitt:: 1, 2 and 3. There are no statistics on imports of maple trees. Imported maples are included in import statistical class 1669 "Trees, shrubs, vines, plants, roots and cuttings, commonly known as florist or nursery stock n.o.p.". Totals for this class cannot be taken as indicative of imports of maples, because these would normally form only a small part of the class total. The value of imports for class 1669 for the calendar year 1961 was $2,199,400 received from United Kingdom, Belgium and Luxembourg, Denmark, West Germany, Netherlands, France, Spain, Spanish Africa, Japan, Puerto Rico and the United States.


TORONTO AIRPORTS
Mr. Haidasz: 1.	What are the names and addresses of the persons or corporation who have leased the parking concession at Toronto Malton airport?
2.	For what period of time has the parking concession been leased?
3.	What is the amount of rental per annum received by the government for this parking concession?
4.	What are the parking charges per hour and per day on this concession?
5.	How many cars can this lot accommodate?
6.	Will there be a new parking lot at the new Toronto international airport?
7.	Has any decision been made as to who will run this new parking lot and, if not, how will this decision be made?
8.	How many parked cars will this lot accommodate?
9.	What will be the charges for parked cars on this new lot?

Questions


James Alexander McBain: 1. The car parking lot is operated by Delta Parking Systems Ltd. with head office in Winnipeg.
2.	The agreement with the company is for a period of three years and expires on February 28, 1963.
3.	The rental per annum is based on a percentage of gross. The amount paid for the fiscal year ending March 31,	1962, was

4.	The schedule of parking rates is as follows: 25 cents for the first two hours; 25 cents for each additional four hours or portion thereof thereafter.
5.	The present car parking lot accommodates approximately 1,500 cars.
6.	In the new air terminal building being constructed there will be a nine level parking structure.
7.	No decision has been made with respect to the operator for the car parking structure in the new air terminal building. The department will be calling for tenders after the new year and the choice of the operator will be made on the assessment of the bids received.
8.	The nine level parking structure in the new air terminal building will accommodate approximately 2,400 cars.
9.	The rates to be charged for parking in the new air terminal building are under consideration.


VETERANS LAND ACT, LAKEHEAD  NON-VETERAN SOLICITORS
Mr. Badanai: Has the Minister of Veterans Affairs received a communication from the Royal Canadian Legion branch No. 6 of Fort William protesting against the practice of the director of the Veterans Land Act of using non-veteran solicitors in the lakehead area and, if so, does the government intend to have the matter investigated and rectified to the satisfaction of the Legion?


Mr. Churchill:: The answer is yes. A communication has been received and the matter is being investigated.


MRS. EUGENIA SZARV-IMMIGRATION ORDER APPEAL
Mr. Rapp: 1.	Has an immigration appeal board recently reviewed an appeal of a deportation order against Mrs. Eugenia Szary, presently residing in Wadena, Saskatchewan, and, if so, (a) was any new evidence presented to the board on behalf of Mrs. Szary (b) what was the nature of such evidence (c) what was the decision, if any, of the board on this appeal?
2.	If the appeal was denied, does the minister review the decision of the board and, if so, when may a final decision on this application be made?


Frank Charles McGee: 1. Yes. The appeal of Mrs. Eugenia Szary was reviewed by the immigration appeal board on October 23, 1962 on the

basis of the evidence adduced at the enquiry held in her case on August 21, 1962, and subsequent representations received by the board on October 22, 1962 from her counsel. These representations included an affidavit by Mrs, Szary detailing the circumstances surrounding her admission to and residence in Canada and the fact that she has, since her deportation was ordered, become engaged to marry a resident of Canada. The affidavit was supported by statements from her intended husband and a relative, both of whom guaranteed that the appellant and her children would not become public charges if allowed to remain in Canada. The appeal was dismissed by the board on October 23, 1962.
2. Under the Immigration Act the minister may in any case review the decision of an immigration appeal board and confirm or quash such decision or substitute his decision therefor. In the case of Mrs. Szary the minister has reviewed the decision of the immigration appeal board and decided to provide her with a period of time in which to marry the gentleman to whom she is now engaged, following which consideration would be given to granting her landed immigrant status.


INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE ON MIDDLE LEVEL MANPOWER
Mr. Berger: 1.	Did Canada send a delegate, or delegates, to the international conference on middle level manpower held recently under the auspices of the United States peace corps?
2.	Is Canada participating in the establishment of a secretariat at Washington to exchange ideas or job-training methods to help workers in underdeveloped countries?


Mr. Green:: 1. Yes; H. O. Moran, director general, external aid office.
2. In order to follow up certain initiatives developed at the conference, it was agreed to set up on an interim basis for one year a small secretariat in Washington with specific and limited functions. The extent of Canadian participation will be decided when steps are taken to form the secretariat.


R.C.M.P. PENSIONS
Mr. Matheson: 1.	When was the last increase for Royal Canadian Mounted Police pensioners, and what was the formula applied?
2.	Have requests been received for further increases?
3.	Has the government any plans with respect to increase of existing pensions?


Mr. Bell (Saint John-Albert):: 1. The last increase in Royal Canadian Mounted Police service pensions was made effective August 1,

1959, and was paid pursuant to the Public Service Pension Adjustment Act, chapter 32 of the Revised Statutes of Canada, 1959. The formula applied was that contained in sections 3 to 7, inclusive, and schedules B and C of that act.
2.	From time to time requests have been received from individual pensioners of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police for increases.
3.	This is a matter of government policy.


CHATHAM, ONT. VOCATIONAL SCHOOL CONSTRUCTION
Mr. Clunis: 1.	In connection with the Technical and Vocational Training Assistance Act, are the construction plans and specifications for schools submitted to the Department of Labour or any other department of the government before tenders are called and, if so, is it government policy to require that a maximum of Canadian manufactured content be specified for school construction?
2.	If the above is government policy, will the minister explain why the plumbing materials and brick specified for the school at Chatham, Ontario, are of foreign manufacture?
3.	What is the acreage of the Chatham school site?
4.	What is the proposed cost of landscaping this site?
5.	Will the local building architect be paid fees in respect of landscaping cost?


Mr. Hales:: 1. Plans, but not necessarily the specifications, are submitted to the Department of Labour for approval before tenders are called. The Department of Public Works staff represent the federal government at tender openings and provide advice and technical information. It is government policy that, in so far as possible, materials "produced or made in Canada" are to be used in approved projects.
2.	Bricks and some mechanical equipment, not made in Canada, were apparently specified for the school at Chatham but through the representations of industry and both the federal and provincial governments, Canadian bricks have been used for the project. Mechanical equipment of Canadian manufacture has also been used when available.
3.	The size of the school site is 15 acres.
4.	The proposed cost of landscaping the whole site is not available because the provincial and federal governments share in only a part of the cost of landscaping.
5.	Yes.


PILOTS' DORMITORIES, MARCHE CHAMPLAIN, QUE.
Mr. Dumont: 1.	What were the maintenance costs of the two dormitories in the pilots' building, Marche Champlain, for the district of Quebec and Montreal?
2.	Were these dormitories closed on the order of the Minister of Transport?
27507-3-72i
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3.	Was the staff reduced after these dormitories were closed?
4.	In what manner were the furnishings of the dormitories disposed of?


James Alexander McBain: 1. $450.98 for the fiscal year
1961-62.
2.	Yes, under general instructions to eliminate unnecessary expenditures.
3.	No.
4.	The furnishings were disposed of through the Crown Assets Disposal Corporation.


SAGUENAY COUNTY, QUE. PILOTAGE STATION
Mr. Legare: 1.	What amount of money has been spent by the government from 1958 to March 31, 1962, in the county of Saguenay, for the installation and maintenance of a pilotage station which used to be at Pointe au Pere?
2.	What work has been done, and what further amount of money does the government expect to spend to complete the said installation?


James Alexander McBain: 1. $78,765.92.
2. A road has been built leading to the dock; the wharf has been started and is in the construction stage now; electricity has been brought down to the wharf installations. The government has spent $108,283.31 since March 31, 1962, to date and expects to spend $376,716.69 to complete the installation.


NATIONAL LIBRARY, OTTAWA
Mr. Brown: Has a decision been reached by the government as to the early construction of the national library at Ottawa and, if so, what is the decision?


Robert Jardine McCleave: Yes, a decision has been reached and it is expected tenders will be called shortly.


CONTRIBUTION TO VANCOUVER AQUARIUM ASSOCIATION
Mr. Laing: Since June 18 this year, has a commitment been made for a contribution to Vancouver aquarium association for a new building and, if so, what amount was committed and, if subject to certain conditions, what were these conditions?


Mr. MacLean:: No commitment has been given for a contribution to the Vancouver aquarium association, but discussions are taking place with the association on the possibilities of a grant being made, provided that the two other levels of government make similar contributions.


OIL AND GAS EXPORTS BY PIPE LINE
Mr. Laing: 1.	In each year since 1958, what have been (a) quantities (b) export values, in Canadian dollars, of exports by pipe line from British Columbia of (i) oil (ii) natural gas?
2.	Of the above two products, what quantity of each originated in British Columbia wells?

Questions


Wallace Bickford (Wally) Nesbitt: 1. (a) Crude Petroleum.
Total through B.C. Ports
Year	Barrels
1958		 10,222,714
1959		 12,857,394
1960		 17,759,329
1961		 30,657,710
Natural Gas
Total through B.C. Ports
Year	M.C.F.
1958		 74,807,741
1959		 68,333,891
1960		 73,823,939
1961		 88,963,832
(b) Crude Petroleum
Total through B.C. Ports
Year	$ Value
1958		 28,082,195
1959		 34,096,636
1960		 46,345,512
1961		 80,046,654
Natural Gas
Total through B.C. Ports
Year	$ Value
1958		 16,402,632
1959		 14,730,201
1960		 15,720,555
1961		 20,261,922
2. (i) Nil. (ii) Not available.
pacific western airlines prairie service


Mr. Laing: 1.	Are negotiations continuing for maintenance of Pacific Western Airlines service on the Regina-Saskatoon-Prince Albert-North Battleford-Edmonton service?
2.	Has the report of the air transport board on this question been received and, if the answer is yes, does this guarantee maintenance of the service and, if so, then by whom, and for what assured period?


James Alexander McBain: Mr. Speaker, the answer to part 1 is no. With respect to part 2, I have just received the report of the air transport board on air services in the prairie provinces and it will require detailed study by the government before any decisions are taken and announced.


HOUSING, MONTAGNAIS INDIAN RESERVE, QUEBEC
Mr. Gauthier: 1.	What appropriation has been granted to the Department of Citizenship and Immigration in 1962 for housing purposes on the Indian (Montagnais) reserve of Pointe Bleue, Lake St. John?
2.	Do the decisions of the council of the said reserve concerning the type of constructions to be erected, carry more weight than those of the agent of the same reserve?


Frank Charles McGee: 1. 39,000.
2. The departmental Indian housing program at the local level is the responsibility of the Indian superintendent. It is the policy of the department, however, to encourage band councils to take as active a part as possible in the planning, financing and administration of housing programs on their reserves. Good construction techniques must be observed and the department has prepared a number of Indian housing plans for the use of band councils and field staff which incorporate good construction methods.


INDIAN AFFAIRS OFFICE, QUEBEC
Mr. Gauthier: Does the Quebec office of Indian affairs come under the jurisdiction of the federal Department of Citizenship and Immigration?


Frank Charles McGee: Yes.


INDIAN AGENT, POINTE BLEUE RESERVE, QUEBEC
Mr. Gauthier: As far as the inhabitants of Pointe Bleue Indian reserve are concerned, what functions are fulfilled by the Indian agent of the Department of Citizenship and Immigration?


Frank Charles McGee: The duties and responsibilities of the Indian superintendent of the Pointe Bleue agency are similar to those assigned to superintendents of other Indian agencies throughout Canada. These are as follows: Under the direction of the regional supervisor for Quebec to be responsible for the administration of the Pointe Bleue Indian agency; to stimulate and guide the progressive development of the Pointe Bleue Indians as participating responsible members of the local and wider Canadian community; to supervise and encourage the Indian population in the improvement of their social, economic and domestic living conditions; to develop the effectiveness of the band council and to assist them in assuming increased responsibilities; to promote and encourage the education of the Indians and to ensure that sick, aged and destitute Indians are properly cared for; to maintain close liaison with the responsible law enforcement agency; to develop and maintain good public relations; to prepare reports and deal with correspondence; to perform other related duties as required.


IMPORTS FROM U.K. AND U.S.
Mr. Matheson: 1.	What were the semi-annual imports in fixed dollars from the United States and from Britain, each six months commencing June 30, 1957, together with percentage changes?
2.	To what extent in percentage terms since June 30, 1957, has the government's import trade switch from Britain to the United States been realized?


Wallace Bickford (Wally) Nesbitt: 1. There are no statistics of imports from the United States or from Britain adjusted for price changes. Constant dollar values have been published for total imports, but the price indexes used in these calculations are considered to be unsuitable for deflating single country series.
2. Not applicable to any government policy.


IMPORTS OF AUTOMOTIVE PARTS
Mr. Martin (Essex East): 1.	What is the reason for the discrepancy of $29,374,410 in dollar values of automotive parts imported from the United States as set forth in Hansard, page 519, and that appearing in the D.B.S. publication "Trade of Canada Imports" for December 1961?
2.	If the total value of automotive parts imported is correct as stated by D.B.S., what is the percentage of dollar value of parts imported from the United States on a duty free basis?


Wallace Bickford (Wally) Nesbitt: 1 and 2. The figures on imports of automobile parts set forth in Hansard, page 519, were compiled from D.B.S. records according to the definition of "automobile parts" usually followed in preparing summaries of Canadian trade statistics. Within the limits of this definition (which was also included in Hansard), there is no discrepancy between the figures appearing in Hansard and those appearing in "Trade of Canada Imports" for December, 1961.
The value $29,374,410 appears to correspond to the total of five additional import statistical classes: 5242 "Engines, automobile and motor vehicle, and complete parts n.o.p., and stripped engines", 5245 "Engines, internal combustion, for motor trucks, motor buses, fire fighting vehicles, ambulances and hearses, and parts", 5682 "Bearings, ball and roller, and parts thereof, for automobiles", 7002 "Asbestos brake lining for road motor vehicles" and 7004 "Asbestos clutch facings for road motor vehicles". These classes are not normally included as "automobile parts" in summaries of Canadian trade statistics, but the same information as originally supplied in Hansard is readily available for the total of these classes, as follows (imports from the United States only): Total value, 1961: $29,374,410; Dutiable imports, 1961: $23,513,109; Duty free imports, 1961: $5,861,301; Percentage of imports duty free, 1961: 20 per cent.
There are also a number of other import statistical classes which some might wish to include as "automobile parts". Aside from such obvious categories as batteries and tires and tubes, import statistics include classes for "Automobile parts of rubber n.o.p." (class 1729), "Spark plugs, magnetos n.o.p. and other ignition apparatus and complete parts n.o.p." (class 6160), "Sealed beam lamps" (class 6307), and "Lights, electric, head, side and tail n.o.p."
Questions
(class 6315), and there are several other import classes to which material for use on automobiles contributes a significant proportion of total value. Statistics on these or on any other classes considered to be relevant can also be supplied for calendar year periods, and these figures are published as time permits in volume III of the annual Trade of Canada report.


* NEWFOUNDLAND
Mr. Tucker: Has the government any plans to change the narrow gauge Newfoundland railway to standard gauge and. if not, will the government give consideration to bearing the whole cost of completing the trans-Canada highway in Newfoundland as recommended by the MacPherson commission?


James Alexander McBain: This being a matter of government policy, any announcement in regard thereto will be made in the usual manner.


R.C.M.P.-EDUCATIONAL FACILITIES FOR INTERNAL SECURITY PROBLEMS
Mr. Matheson: Has the government since 1957 set aside any specific sums to provide educational facilities for R.C.M.P. personnel to enable them to cope with the responsibility of internal security?


Thomas Miller Bell: Yes.


SHIPBUILDING SUBSIDIES
Mr. Roy: Does the government intend to maintain and increase the subsidies paid for the purpose of encouraging shipping companies to build ships in our Canadian shipywards and thus provide employment for our unemployed?


James Alexander McBain: Yes.


MUNICIPAL WINTER WORKS
Mr. Roy: Has the government, in co-operation with the provincial governments, considered contributing to the cost of materials used for winter works approved by municipalities?


Alfred Dryden Hales: No.


NATIONAL DEBT
Mr. Lalulippe: 1.	What is the national debt exclusive of debt to foreign countries, and to whom are we indebted?
2.	What is the rate of interest on our bonds, and what are the amounts and dates of our annual reimbursements?
3.	What is the amount of currency put into circulation by the Bank of Canada?


Mr. Graffley:: Recent published figures are to be found in the Bank of Canada "Statistical Summary" for September 1962, as follows:
1. Page 545, final column.

Questions
2.	Pages 540-1 and 543. (See also p. 537 for yields of weekly sales of treasury bills.)
3.	Page 527.
In regard to part 1 of the question, additional information is to be found in table 41 of part II of the budget papers published in Hansard of April 10, 1962.


BILL OF RIGHTS
[Stage Direction]
Question No. 519*-Mr. Matheson:
1.	Has the attention of the Minister of Justice or the officials of his department been drawn to the reproduction of a portion of the bill of rights, together with part of a speech delivered in this house by the Prime Minister, which is now given away with giant tubes of toothpaste?
2.	Did the government authorize the use of a replica of the Prime Minister's signature for this purpose?
Mr. Halpenny:: 1. No.
2. No.



Mr. Matheson: Does the Department of the Secretary of State recognize that a copyright containing part of the bill of rights, part of a speech by the Prime Minister, and the signature of the Prime Minister, belongs to National Marketing Limited, as indicated in the document distributed with giant tubes of toothpaste?


George Ernest Halpenny: A copyright in an artistic work entitled "Artistic Illustrations appearing on the Canadian Bill of Rights" was registered with the copyright office in January 1962 by National Marketing (1959) Limited, Montreal.


*MONEY IN CIRCULATION, BANK SECURITIES, ETC.
Mr. Lamy: 1.	Has the government an absolute control over the issue of money?
2.	What amount of paper money and metallic money is presently in circulation in Canada?
3.	What securities must chartered banks hold to cover their loans?
4.	What amount have the chartered banks, taken as a whole, invested in their business?
5.	What amount of money is owed to chartered banks by all their clients?
(Translation):


William Heward Grafftey: 1. No. All metal coins are issued by the Royal Canadian Mint. The Bank of Canada has the sole right to issue notes for circulation in Canada.
2.	These statistics are published weekly by the Bank of Canada and printed monthly in the Bank of Canada statistical summary.
3.	Chartered banks may lend money and make advances with or without security. Their powers and prohibitions are enumerated in section 75 and following sections of the Bank Act.

4.	The amounts of paid-up capital, rest account and undivided profits of each of the chartered banks are published monthly in the Canada Gazette.
5.	The amounts of loans in Canadian and other currencies and of mortgages and hypothecs insured under the National Housing Act, 1954, owing to each of the chartered banks are published monthly in the Canada Gazette.
(Text):


COMPTON-FRONTENAC AREA, QUE.    EXTENSION OF WINTER WORKS PROGRAM
Mr. Latulippe: Is the Minister of Labour giving consideration to the possibility of extending the winter works program so as to include the summer season, as the spring thaw and run-off period is unfavourable to outdoor work in the Compton-Frontenac area?


Alfred Dryden Hales: No. To do so would defeat the purpose of the program, which is to encourage municipalities to carry out municipal public works projects during the winter months which otherwise would be carried out during the summer months.


VOCATIONAL SCHOOL SUBSIDY, QUEBEC
Mr. Latulippe: Would the Minister of Labour inform the house as to whether any agreement has been entered into by his department and the government of Quebec granting a subsidy for the construction of a trade school, and what amount has been provided therefor?


Alfred Dryden Hales: Yes. The federal government has approved $5,003,445 toward building projects for 24 trade schools in Quebec.


HOLDINGS OF GOVERNMENT BONDS
[Stage Direction]
Question No. 533[DOT]-Mr. Gregoire:
What is the amount of government bonds (list issue in each case) held (a) directly by chartered banks (b) indirectly by chartered banks (c) by insurance companies (d) by finance companies (e) by non-Canadian groups or companies (f) by private individuals (g) by other groups or persons?
William Heward Grafftey: The information is not available in the form requested. The total amount of government of Canada direct and guaranteed securities held by various classes of holder as at December 31, 1961, are shown on page 545 of the Bank of Canada statistical summary for September, 1962. Up to date information on the total holdings of such securities by the chartered banks, the Bank of Canada, government accounts and the general public is given each Thursday in the weekly financial statistics published by the Bank of Canada.


FEDERAL CONTRIBUTION TO CAMPGROUND DEVELOPMENT, N.S.
Mr. Slewarl: 1.	What was the total amount contributed by the federal government, through the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources, to the province of Nova Scotia for campground and picnic area development during the fiscal year 1961-62?
2.	What was the location of each project, and in each case, what was the amount expended?


Mr. Dinsdale:: 1. $45,944.17 was contributed
for work undertaken	during the	fiscal year1961-62.	Total	Federal Contri-2. Location	Expenditure	butionFenwick 	. $ 402.99	161.20Wentworth 	. 15,020.18	6,008.07Caribou 	. 10,523.92	4,209.56Salt Springs 	. 3,646.71	1,458.68Whycocomagh 	. 18,543.13	7,417.26Laurie Park 	. 10,303.72	5,151.70Tatamogouche 	. 2,935.11	1,467.55Islands Park 	. 4,872.34	2,436.17Boyleston 	. 1,943.64	971.81Simms Settlement ...	. 675.02	337.51Smiley Interval 	. 1,708.28	854.14Peggy's Cove 	. 173.40	86.70Two Mile Lake 	. 142.69	71.35Cold Brook 	. 657.20	328.60Halifax 	. 1,334.20	667.10Shelburne 	. 840.03	420.01Pictou 	. 107.72	53.86Antigonish	. 1,449.27	724.63Cumberland 	. 720.63	360.31Guysboro 	. 431.04	215.57Cape Breton 	. 1,887.73	943.86Hants County	. 2,290.29	1,145.14Yarmouth 	. 1,016.14	508.07St. Peters	. 263.84	131.92Liverpool 	. 257.45	128.73Kentville 	. 9.69	4.85Lunenburg & Chester 488.34	244.17Baddeck 	. 268.28	134.14Inverness 	. 71.00	35.50Expenditures applicable	to various locations which cannot be allotted by project .	. 21,700.43	9,266.01104,684.41	45,944.17


EUGENE RHEAUME
Mrs. Hardie: Is Mr. Eugene Rheaume, a resident of the Northwest Territories, presently in the employ of the government of Canada and, if so (a) by which government department is he employed (b) how long has he been so employed (c) what is his expected term of employment (d) what are his duties and (e) what remuneration does he receive?
Questions


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: The answer to the question is no. Therefore parts (a), (b), (c), (d) and (e) are not applicable.


NATIONAL GALLERY EXHIBIT OF CHRYSLER PAINTINGS
Miss LaMarsh: 1.	In connection with the exhibition of paintings entitled "The Controversial Century" (a) did Dr. W. S. A. Dale, assistant director of the national gallery of Canada conduct negotiations with Walter P. Chrysler, Jr., (b) did Mr. Dale inspect the paintings and, if so, when (c) did Mr. Dale express doubts regarding the quality or authenticity of the works (d) did any other official of the gallery make an inspection (e) was any warning, originating from Ralph Colin, counsel for the Art Dealers Association of America, conveyed to Dr. Comfort or any other gallery official by Dr. Evan Turner, director of the Montreal museum of fine arts (f) was any action taken after Dr. Turner's warning was received (g) what responsibility, if any, does the national gallery accept for the quality and authenticity of exhibits?
2.	In connection with the exhibition's catalogue (a) what control did the national gallery exercise over its contents (b) did any official of the gallery proofread and approve the contents before publication (c) what responsibility does the gallery accept for the documentary content (d) what part of the cost of the preparation and publication of the catalogue was met by the national gallery and (e) what part of the sale price is refunded to the national gallery?


Frank Charles McGee: 1. (a) Yes; (b) Yes, in early May; (c) Dr. Dale did comment on the uneven quality of some items; (d) No; (e) Answered in question No. 400, para. 2; (f) Yes; the Department of Justice was consulted on the legal position of the national gallery. The business administrator of the gallery, Mr. John R. Veit, was sent to New York to make inquiry regarding the rumoured controversy between an American art dealers association and Mr. Chrysler; (g) When the national gallery originates an exhibition, full responsibility is accepted by that institution for the quality and authenticity of the works included. When the national gallery accepts an exhibition from an outside source, it relies on the accepted reputation of the collection or institution by which it is offered.
2. (a) Answered in Q. 400, para. 4; (b) No;
(c)	None, since the catalogue forms an integral part of the exhibition accepted under the terms stated in the answer to para. 1 (g); (d) An equal share of the editorial and design cost, and a prorated share of the manufacturing costs; (e) No part of the sale price is refunded to the national gallery since the distribution of the catalogue is handled by the Department of Public Printing and Stationery.

Orders for Returns


REPLACEMENT FOR BANSHEE FIGHTER PLANE
Mr. Matheson: Since the retirement of the Banshee fighter, what jet replacement has been obtained for the Canadian Navy and, in particular, for H.M.C.S. Bonaventure?


Mr. Harkness:: No jet replacement for the Banshee fighter has been obtained for H.M.C.S. Bonaventure, but it is planned to provide other ships in the R.C.N. with a surface to air capability.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. Nielsen: 1.	What are the tons and ton-miles of freight moved on equipment owned by Eldorado Aviation Limited during the years 1959, 1960, and 1961 tabulated as follows (a) total from and to all points within the company system northbound (b) total from and to all points within the company system southbound (c) from Edmonton, Alberta, to all points within the Northwest Territories (d) from all points within the Northwest Territories to Edmonton (e) from all points within the company system destined for distant early warning station sites (f) from distant early warning station sites to all points within the company system (g) from all points within the company system to all points within the system of Northern Transportation Company Limited (h) from all points within the system of Northern Transportation Company Limited to all points within the system of Eldorado Aviation Limited?
2.	Of the total tonnage and ton-miles moved within the Northwest Territories, what percentage of each of these totals was moved for (a) crown corporations (bj government departments (c) distant early warning stations sites (d) consignees other than above?
3.	What was the total number of passengers carried during the years 1959, 1960, and 1961 tabulated in the same manner as part 1 above?
4.	What was the total number of passengers carried for (a) crown corporations (b) government departments (c) distant early warning station sites (d) persons, firms, or corporations other than above?
5.	What gross revenue was earned by Eldorado
Aviation Limited in each year 1959,	1960 and
1961 from the carriage of goods within the Northwest Territories tabulated as follows (a) goods carried for crown corporations (b) goods carried for Canadian government departments (c) goods carried for distant early warning station sites (d) goods carried for consignees other than (a), (b), or (c)?
6.	What gross revenue was earned by Eldorado Aviation Limited in each year 1959, 1960, and 1961 from the carriage of passengers within the Northwest Territories tabulated in the same manner as for part 5 above?
7.	What was the gross revenue earned by Eldorado Aviation Limited in each year 1959, 1960, and 1961 from the carriage of passengers to and from all points outside of the Northwest Territories tabulated in the same manner as for part 5 above?
8.	Of the total tonnage provided for carriage by Eldorado Aviation Limited, what tonnage was allocated to Canadian (private enterprise) carriers by Eldorado Aviation Limited for movement within the Northwest Territories or outside the Northwest Territories during the years 1959, 1960, and 1961?

9.	What sources of revenue has Eldorado Aviation Limited other than from the carriage of goods or passengers by air?
10.	Other than transportation operations, what business activities are carried on by Eldorado Aviation Limited?
11.	What is the yearly statement of income and expenditures in tabulated form, in totals and in cents per ton-mile for the years 1956, 1957, 1958, 1959, 1960, and 1961, of yearly (a) freight earnings (b) revenue passenger earnings (c) miscellaneous earnings, other than freight revenue (d) operating expenses (e) administrative expenses (f) depreciation (g) operating profits (h) income tax paid (i) net profit?
12.	What is the total number of aircraft accidents occurring either on the ground, on the water, or in the air, which involved company aircraft during the years 1956, 1957, 1958, 1959, 1960, and 1961, indicating the type of aircraft involved in each accident and the cost of each accident with a brief statement of the cause?
13.	What is the total number of non-revenue paying passengers carried by the company in company aircraft to and from all points tabulated in the same manner as for parts 1 and 2 above for the years 1956, 1957, 1958, 1959, 1960, and 1961?


INDIAN AGENCY EXPENDITURES, B.C.
Mr. Howard: For each of the Indian agencies of Babine, Terrace, Bella Coola, Skeena river, Burns lake, and Queen Charlottes, how much money has been expended by fiscal years since 1957 for (a) house building (b) housing repairs (c) welfare (relief) (d) roads (e) water systems, and (f) sewage systems?


Frank Charles McGee: Return tabled.


DEPORTATION ORDERS
Mr. Howard: 1.	Since January 1, 1957, how many, if any, people have been ordered to be deported shown by country of origin and citizenship?
2.	How many of these have not been so deported with the reasons given in each case?


Frank Charles McGee: Return tabled.


*KENT COUNTY, N.B., WHARVES AND BREAKWATERS
Mr. Crossman: 1.	What is the total number of contracts awarded by the Department of Public Works since April 1957 to date for the construction of wharves and for breakwaters in Kent county, New Brunswick?
2.	What are the names and addresses of persons who submitted tenders for each project?
3.	What are the amounts submitted by each tenderer for each project, and who was the successful tenderer in each case?


Robert Jardine McCleave: Return tabled.


* IMPORTS OF POULTRY
Mr. Drouin: 1.	What was the quantity, by provinces, of poultry (turkey, chicken, etc.) imported for consumption during the last fiscal year?
2.	From what countries was the poultry imported?
3.	What was the total price paid by the importers for this poultry?


Wallace Bickford (Wally) Nesbitt: Return tabled.


WINTER WORKS PROGRAM, QUEBEC
Mr. Bourbonnais: 1.	What amounts has the federal government contributed to the winter works program carried out by the municipalities of the province of Quebec?
2.	Are payments by the federal government for such works made regularly as progress reports are received from Quebec?
3.	Are there any municipalities of the province of Quebec to which the federal government has refused to pay its share and, if so, give the list of the said municipalities and state the amount involved in each case?


Alfred Dryden Hales: Return tabled.


*C.B.C. OFFICES, TORONTO
Mr. Ryan: 1.	What are the addresses of the various offices of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation in Metropolitan Toronto?
2.	How many of these offices are rented by the said corporation?
3.	What is the total monthly rent paid for the rented offices?


George Ernest Halpenny: Return tabled.
protests against c.b.c. program "quest"


Mr. Garland: 1.	Has the Secretary of State directly, or through the office of the Prime Minister, received any representations protesting against the character of the T.V. program called "Quest", broadcast from the C.B.C. Toronto studios on Sunday evening, October 21, on the grounds of alleged indecency?
2.	Has the minister brought these complaints to the attention of the C.B.C. management?
3.	Have similar complaints been received by the president of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation?
4.	Has the minister had any conversation or correspondence with any officials of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation in respect to this program?
5.	What avenues are open to the Canadian public to protest against this program and any similar programs on the C.B.C.?


George Ernest Halpenny: Return tabled.


CONTRACTS TO CANADIAN AVIATION ELECTRONICS LTD.
Mr. Rouleau: Have any contracts been awarded to Canadian Aviation Electronics Ltd. of St. Laurent, Quebec, since July 1, 1957, and, if so, how many, what was the nature of each contract, and what was the amount of each such contract?


CONTRACTS WITH CANADAIR LTD.
Mr. Rouleau: Have any contracts been awarded to Canadair Ltd. at St. Laurent, Quebec, since July 1, 1957, and, if so, how many, what was the nature of each contract, and what was the amount of each contract?


LAKEHEAD VIDEON CABLE T.V. SERVICE
Mr. Fisher: 1. Is either the Canadian Broadcasting Corpora-ton or the board of broadcast governors aware that
Motions for Papers
Lakehead Videon, a cable T.V. enterprise at Port Arthur and Fort William, is distributing to its patrons east-west football games which are carried on the C.T.V. network and, if so, has either C.B.C. or the B.B.G. examined this situation from a legal or jurisdictional point of view to determine whether the intent of the Broadcasting Act is being circumvented by such television services of live programs?
2.	Has either the C.B.C. or the B.B.G. held discussions with the Department of Transport In recent months on this general problem and on the specific one presented by Lakehead Videon?
3.	Has either the C.B.C. or the B.B.G. made any recommendations to the governor in council regarding this situation?



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS


[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 23-Mr. Malheson:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of the final report of the correctional planning committee.
Mr.. Bell (Sainl John-Alberi):: Mr. Speaker, this report was stated to be a confidential departmental report and accordingly should not be tabled. I have spoken to the hon. member and he has agreed to withdraw his motion.
Order discharged and motion withdrawn.



COMMUNICATIONS FROM DRUG COMMITTEE OF COLLEGE OF PHYSICIANS

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 33-Mr. Haidasz:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all communications addressed to the food and drug directorate and to the Department of National Health and Welfare from the special committee on drugs established by the royal college of physicians and surgeons at the request of the minister.
Mr. Speaker:: Is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the said motion?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Mr. Monteilh:: I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, but I intended to ask that motion No. 33 stand for today.


Mr. Speaker:: It is too late now.


Mr. Fulton:: Mr. Speaker, would it not be possible by unanimous consent of the house, if it is forthcoming, to rescind the order just passed until my colleague has an opportunity to consider the position with regard to No. 33.


Mr. Chevrier:: It is quite agreeable to us, Mr. Speaker.


Mr. Speaker:: There must be unanimous
agreement, and at the time I thought there was some opposition.

Inquiries of the Ministry Mr. Fulton: I think it was jocular rather than serious.


Mr. Speaker:: As there is unanimous agreement, it will revert to the order paper and be stood over.
Motion stands.



ONTARIO-QUEBEC BOUNDARY, LAKE ST. FRANCIS

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 34-Mr. Lamoureux:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all correspondence between the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys, or any officer of that department, and all governmental departments of the provinces of Ontario and Quebec, dated since January 1, 1961, pertaining to the boundaries of Ontario and Quebec in lake St. Francis.
Mr. Speaker:: With respect to item No. 34, by inadvertence there is a misprint in that it is marked as an order ol the house and it should be an address of the house. (Translation):


Paul Raymond Martineau: Mr. Speaker, I am ready to accept that motion with the usual reservation, that is, provided I can obtain the consent of the governments of Ontario and Quebec to table the correspondence concerned.
(Text):


Mr. Speaker:: Subject to the reservation made by the minister, is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion?


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 35-Miss LaMarsh:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of the letter of resignation submitted by Richard B. Simmins, director of exhibition extension services.
Mr. Bell (Carleton):: I wonder whether I might induce the hon. lady to allow this motion to stand.
Motion stands.



CORRESPONDENCE BETWEEN NATIONAL GALLERY AND W. P. CHRYSLER

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 36-Miss LaMarsh:
That an order of the house do issue for copies of all correspondence and memoranda between W. P. Chrysler, Jr., and the national gallery of Canada, between June 1 and October 15, 1962.
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. W. Herridge (Kootenay West):: wish to raise a question of privilege, Mr. Speaker, to bring to the attention of the house that on February 19 of this year, owing to an unexpected sequence of events, I was


elected house leader of the New Democratic party, and I take this opportunity to express publicly my appreciation for the loyal cooperation and support I have received from the members of this party.
It was suggested that I continue to serve our party as deputy leader but, Mr. Speaker, while I sincerely appreciate the suggestion, I consider that the responsibilities and duties of a deputy leader can be best undertaken by a younger man. Therefore I wish to announce that the hon. member for York South (Mr. Lewis) was elected as deputy leader by our caucus this morning and will occupy this seat-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I think the house is prepared to receive the information that the hon. member has given up to this moment. However, I doubt that there is any question of privilege here, and I think we will accept any further information in this regard through the usual channels.


Mr. Stanley Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):: Mr. Speaker, Your Honour's view a moment ago I am sure was technically correct when you said that my colleague did not have what would be called a true point of privilege. However, I am sure the house will give to my colleague the unanimous consent that it gave a moment ago in another incident, and permit him to complete his statement. I am sure there is general interest when there are changes in the ministry or changes in leadership, and with great respect and deference I suggest you might ask if the house would give unanimous consent to the hon. member for Kootenay West to complete the statement he was seeking to make.


Mr. Speaker:: In this regard I am in the
hands of the house, and if the house wishes to give unanimous consent it may do so.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Some hon. Members:: No.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Who is saying no?


Mr. Byrne:: I am saying no.



MR. HERRIDGE    REFERENCE TO ARTICLE IN OTTAWA &quot;CITIZEN&quot;

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of personal privilege and with a measure of indignation. It arises from a newspaper story in the Ottawa Citizen of recent date, with which I have no quarrel in itself. The writer is Mr. James Nelson, a very respected member of the press gallery, but I object to the heading on the story which says "Bertie heads

for home". This has been a great embarrassment to the member for Kootenay West and his wife. We have received dozens of phone calls from ladies, and some gentlemen, both at home and at my office to find out if this was true. Of course all these inquiries were interested in my parliamentary and political activities. Mr. Speaker, I wish to say that I am not returning home. I am staying here to work in co-operation with this group in support of our policies, and continue to work to the best of my ability for the people of Kootenay West.


Mr. Speaker:: I am sure all hon. members would have been grieved had they believed the heading on that news story.



DEFENCE PRODUCTION

[Stage Direction]
USE OF cl-44 plane to deliver equipment
On the orders of the day:
Lionel Chevrier: I should like to direct a question to the Prime Minister. Has the government given consideration to flying the military equipment requested by the government of India to that country in the CL-44 manufactured by Canadair?


Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, in so far as the supplies that are to be sent to India are concerned, when a determination is made thereon that method of transportation will be used which will be most effective.


Lionel Chevrier: I should like to ask a supplementary question of the Minister of National Defence. Can he tell the house whether or not the CL-44 manufactured by Canadair is used to fly the CF-104 jet fighters to Germany or any other theatre of Canadian activity?


Douglas Scott Harkness: Not that I am aware of, Mr. Speaker.



NATIONAL DEFENCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Paul Hellyer (Trinity):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Defence. Is it the minister's intention to prepare for the use of the house during the current session a white paper on defence?


Douglas Scott Harkness: Mr. Speaker, I have had it in mind to produce a paper similar to those that have been produced in the past for this purpose.
27507-3-731
Inquiries of the Ministry


Paul Theodore Hellyer: A supplementary question. Does the minister not feel that under the circumstances existing in the country at the present time-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: -a more comprehensive report might be given?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member is a quite well versed member of the house and he realizes what supplementaries are. They are not for the purpose of argument.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, this is a very important matter. The minister is refusing to give the house a comprehensive statement on defence.


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. As I indicated, I feel that the hon. member is advancing an argument, and while his argument may be valid he is still advancing an argument under the guise of a supplementary question.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Defence. Will the minister include in the document he proposes to prepare for use by hon. members a comprehensive statement of defence policy, thereby returning to a practice which was most helpful to members and to the country in the past?


Douglas Scott Harkness: In all these documents
there has been a comprehensive statement of defence policy.



TRANSPORT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. C. McNulty (Lincoln):: I should like
to direct a question to the Minister of Transport. Would the minister inform the house what action he is taking to alleviate the emergency situation in regard to the tie-up of ships at the Port Weller entrance to the Welland canal and the shortage of pilots on the Port Weller-Sarnia division of the St. Lawrence seaway?


Hon. Leon Balcer (Minister of Transport):: The matter is under review by the officers of my department.


EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Andre Bernier (Richmond-Wolfe):: should like to direct a question to the Prime
1138	HOUSE OF
Inquiries of the Ministry Minister. Will the right hon. Prime Minister assure the house that in formulating Canada's policy toward the unjustified invasion of our sister nation India by communist China, he will take into full consideration the fact that in order to be in her present position China first raped and butchered the innocent people and the nation of Tibet?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member has asserted a number of opinions and given the house certain conclusions of fact. I suggest to him that he recast his question and perhaps put it on the order paper.



VOCATIONAL TRAINING


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr, E. T. Asselin (Notre Dame de Grace):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Finance. Is it a fact that the federal government is no longer making any funds available to the province of Quebec for professional training under the federal-provincial agreement?


Hon. George C. Nowlan (Minister of Finance):: I am not sure to what the hon. member is referring. I will inquire into the matter and reply later.


Mr. Speaker:: I think this points up the fact that the question would have been better on the order paper.



BROADCASTING


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Paul Tardif (Russell):: I should like to direct a question to the Secretary of State. Will he tell the house whether a recent appointment to the board of broadcast governors was made contrary to the Broadcasting Act because of the age of the appointee?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. There is a lot of argument and opinion in the question. I think it had better be recast and put on the order paper.


Hon. J. W. Pickersgill (Bonavisia-Twil-lingaie):: I rise on a point of order, Mr. Speaker. My hon. friend has directed a simple question to the Secretary of State. The question is, has the government broken the law. Surely that question can be answered. There is no question of argument; it is a question. It was phrased in the shortest possible way-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


John Whitney Pickersgill: -to bring that point to the house.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. In his general enthusiasm the hon. member may have done a better job of rephrasing the question than the hon. member who asked the question. The hon. member for Bellechasse.


John Whitney Pickersgill: A point of order-


Mr. Speaker:: I recognized the hon. member for Bellechasse.
(Translation):


Mr. Dumoni:: Mr. Speaker, my question is intended for the Minister of Agriculture. Since-
(Text):


John Whitney Pickersgill: I rise on a point of order, Mr. Speaker, as I am sure I am entitled to do. Before doing so I must say that I apologize to the Chair for inadvertently applauding myself.
The point of order is with respect to the question directed to the Secretary of State by the hon. member for Russell. It seems to me that under the rules Your Honour is obliged to give a judgment on the point of order itself. The point of order was that the hon. member for Russell was inquiring whether the government had broken the law in making a certain appointment. He merely included enough words in his question to indicate which appointment it was.
This is a simple, direct question. It does not state anything. It makes an inquiry. It seems to me it is completely in order. If the Secretary of State had wanted to take exception to it he should have been allowed to do so, but it should not be ruled out of order.


George Ernest Halpenny: I have a very simple answer to the question. When the appointment was made I did not realize Mr. Campbell was over age. A replacement will be announced very shortly.
(Translation):



REQUEST FOR SIMULTANEOUS TRANSLATION IN AGRICULTURE COMMITTEE

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Bernard Dumont: For the
information of the Liberal member who just resumed his seat, statesmen have even been seen at the United Nations applauding with their shoes.
Mr. Speaker, my question is intended for the Minister of Agriculture. Since sixty members will sit on the committee on agriculture, will there be simultaneous interpretation in order to facilitate the committee proceedings?


Mr. Speaker:: I must point out to the hon. member that the procedure to be followed during the sittings of the committee on agriculture is left entirely to the discretion of

that committee, which will make any decision in that respect.


An hon. Member:: He did not know.
(Text):



BRIDGES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. L. T. Pennell (Brani-Haldimand):: should preface my question by stating that I have given notice of it for three days, and it is one of great urgency to my constituency. The question is addressed to the Minister of Transport. Do the estimates for the year ending March, 1963, provide for $400,000 to be made available to the St. Lawrence seaway authority to complete its agreement with the county of Haldimand regarding the bridge at Dunnville?


Mr. Speaker:: Notwithstanding the fact that notice may have been given, and I do not know what the minister is prepared to do, I would point out to the hon. member that he is seeking information as to details which it would not normally be expected a minister would have at hand. I point out also that if he feels that he can ask about this or that installation by the Department of Transport, all hon. members may ask about the same sort of thing. Orders of the day are not the time at which we ask detailed questions of a nature which affect primarily one constituency.


Lionel Chevrier: May I rise on a point of order, Mr. Speaker, and bring to your attention the fact that this is a lump sum vote of several millions of dollars. It is impossible for the member to know whether or not this matter is included in that vote.
Now, I would agree with what Your Honour has said were it not for the fact that someone else has already made a statement in connection with this matter which is of urgent importance to the hon. member; and surely he should have the right, in view of that statement to ask the minister whether this item is contained in the estimates. Otherwise he will never know.


Mr. Speaker:: With the greatest respect, the Chair is not aware of any statements made outside or elsewhere in this regard. This may be something that is within the personal knowledge of the hon. member, but again I ask the indulgence and co-operation of the house in this regard. It does not affect only the Minister of Transport. It affects public works and other departments. We could here get into a searching out of details and an examination of the estimates, and I am sure if the hon. member put his question on the
Inquiries of the Ministry order paper it would soon receive an answer.


Lawrence T. Pennell: May I rise on a point of privilege, Mr. Speaker, and say with the greatest respect that I called the minister's office three times and I was assured it would be an easy matter for them to find out. They did not return my calls, and three days went past.


Mr. Speaker:: Now that the minister
has heard that statement I am sure the information will be forthcoming in a direct
fashion.


Léon Balcer: On a question of privilege, Mr. Speaker, yesterday afternoon I sat with my hon. friend for about 15 minutes and we discussed this matter. He might have called my office, but his call has not been passed on to me.


Lionel Chevrier: Why don't you give him the information?


Léon Balcer: I shall be very pleased to answer his question-


Lawrence T. Pennell: Mr- Speaker-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. We are getting into interminable arguments here, and I think the way has been indicated to both sides as to how they should proceed.
(Translation):



POST OFFICE DEPARTMENT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Azellus Denis (St. Denis):: May I direct
a question to the Postmaster General?
(Text):
What does the government intend to do in order to meet the threat of the postal employees to slow down their work operations during the Christmas period?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. With respect to a question about the Christmas period, it is still a month away, so I do not recognize any sense of urgency.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Azellus Denis: Will the minister answer that question in January?


Douglas Scott Harkness: No, in December.


Mr. Speaker:: I am still of the opinion that it should be put on the order paper.



UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. James E. Walker (York Centre):: I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Labour. Will the government be carrying out its usual practice of hiring casual help for the winter

Inquiries of the Ministry months at unemployment insurance commission offices in Toronto in order to handle the seasonal increase in insurance claims?


Hon. Michael Starr (Minister of Labour):: I shall have to take this matter up with the commissioners of the unemployment insurance commission, who are in charge of the administration of the department.



UNITED NATIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Lionel Chevrier: I wish to direct a question to the Prime Minister and ask him if the government has appointed Miss Margaret Aitlcen, former Progressive Conservative member in this house, as the Canadian delegate to the human rights commission of the United Nations?


John George Diefenbaker: Yes, Mr. Speaker.



VOTE OF CANADIAN DELEGATION ON ADMISSION OF RED CHINA

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Stanley Haidasz (Parkdale):: I wish to ask the Secretary of State for External Affairs whether he can inform the house what considerations led the Canadian delegation to vote the way they did on the question of the admission of communist China into the United Nations.


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, I think that is hardly a proper question for orders of the day. However, the Canadian government did not support the admission of mainland China to the United Nations because mainland China insists that she should take over Formosa, and we are not prepared to hand over the Formosans to the red Chinese.



INQUIRY OF THE MINISTRY

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. S. P. Ryan (Spadina):: Mr. Speaker, nothing could be finer than the riding of Spadina. Having said that, I should now like to direct a question to the Right Hon. Prime Minister. In view of the confusion at North collegiate in Barrie, Ontario, will we soon have a national anthem?



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
James Allen (Jim) Byrne: Mr. Speaker, since the Prime Minister's announcement a moment ago seems to indicate that the government is doing something about the unemployment situation, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Labour. Does the government intend to bring in amendments this session to the Unemployment Insurance Act?


Michael Starr: Mr. Speaker, first of all we have to receive the report from the Gill commission, at which time its recommendations will be looked at by the government and a decision will then be made.



INDUSTRY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. E. Gray (Essex West):: I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Labour. Has he yet granted an appointment to a delegation from the city of Windsor and its council to present and discuss the report of the special committee appointed by Windsor city council to deal with the urgent problems of the location of industry and development areas throughout Canada?


Michael Starr: Mr. Speaker, so far as I am aware no approach has been made directly to me by the city of Windsor for such an appointment.
(Translation):



FINANCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Bernard Dumont: I
should like to direct a question to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Nowlan). Is it true that the advertisement for the sale of Canada savings bonds in the Department of Forestry is in English only?
(Text):


George Clyde Nowlan: No, Mr. Speaker.



INQUIRIES FOR RETURNS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. D. M. Fisher (Port Arthur):: I should like to ask the Secretary of State why no reply has been forthcoming to question No.

120, which was made an order for return more than two weeks ago. With your permission, Mr. Speaker, I would like to suggest that one of the subjects that could be discussed by the committee on house procedure would be some means whereby hon. members could have a quick check on all these questions and motions which are made orders for return, and which are sometimes dragged out over a three or four week period. I think it is a very serious situation in trying to keep track of the information you want to get, and in getting in touch with the minister who may be responsible for bringing it into the house.


Mr. Speaker:: I think a word to the wise might be sufficient in this regard, but perhaps hon. members might also recognize that some of the questions which they pose are somewhat complex, far more complex than many of them may realize.


Lionel Chevrier: On the same point, Mr. Speaker, I have a question which was made an order for return some time ago. It concerns ships of Canadian corporations flying the British flag. It would require only a one syllable answer, or at least so I am informed, and I wonder if the Secretary of States would give the answer?


Gordon Minto Churchill: Who told you that?


John Whitney Pickersgill: May I put a question to the Secretary of State, and ask him if he would do as his predecessor was kind enough to do in the previous parliament; that is, furnish us from time to time with a list of the returns which have not yet been presented so that it will be convenient for hon. members to keep track of them. That was much appreciated in the previous parliament.


George Ernest Halpenny: I shall be glad to do so.



WAYS AND MEANS

[Stage Direction]
The house in committee of ways and means, Mr. Chown in the chair.

[Stage Direction]
Resolved,-that It is expedient to introduce a measure to amend the Income Tax Act to provide among other things:
1.	That for the 1962 and subsequent taxation years the amount deductible in computing taxable income In respect of a child qualified for family allowance be increased to $300 and the amount deductible in respect of other dependants be increased to $550 each.
2.	That with respect to income earned after March 31, 1962 a corporation whose principal business is manufacturing or processing (not including a corporation whose principal business is shipbuilding, mining, logging or the operation of oil or gas wells) be allowed to deduct from its tax
Ways and Means
otherwise payable an amount equal to 50 per cent of the tax on the first $50,000, of its taxable income attributable to increased sales and an amount equal to 25 per cent of the tax on the remainder of its taxable income so attributable.
3.	That with respect to its first taxation year ending after April 10, 1962 and the next succeeding four taxation years a corporation be permitted to deduct in computing income 150 per cent of the amount by which expenditures of a current and capital nature on scientific research in Canada incurred by it in the year exceed expenditures of a current and capital nature on scientific research in Canada incurred by it in its last taxation year ending on or before April 10, 1962.
4.	That for the 1962 to 1966 taxation years both inclusive the deduction from tax allowed to corporations in respect of taxable income earned in a province be increased from 9 per cent to 10 per cent in a prescribed province in which arrangements exist for the replacement of federal grants to universities by additional provincial grants in accordance with the proposed amendments to the Federal-Provincial Fiscal Arrangements Act.
5.	That with respect to taxation years commencing in 1962 a taxpayer be allowed a deduction from tax on an amount equal to the lesser of two-thirds of the amount payable for the year to a province as a tax on income from logging operations or § of 10 per cent of the taxpayer's income from logging operations in the province, and the right to deduct in computing income amounts paid to a province as tax on income from logging operations be repealed.
6.	That with respect to expenses incurred after April 10, 1962 any corporation be allowed to deduct in computing income the drilling and exploration expenses, including all general geological and geophysical expenses, incurred by it on or in respect of exploring or drilling for petroleum or natural gas in Canada and the prospecting, exploration and development expenses incurred by it in searching for minerals in Canada not exceeding its income for the year from oil or gas wells in Canada.
7.	That with respect to expenses incurred after April 10, 1962 an individual be allowed to deduct in computing income the drilling and exploration expenses, including all general geological and geophysical expenses, incurred by him on or in respect of exploring or drilling for petroleum or natural gas in Canada not exceeding his income for the year from oil or gas wells in Canada.
8.	That with respect to acquisitions after April 10, 1962 amounts paid by
(a)	a corporation whose principal business is production, refining or marketing of petroleum, petroleum products or natural gas, or exploring or drilling for petroleum or natural gas, or mining or exploring for minerals,
(b)	an association, partnership or syndicate formed for the purpose of exploring or drilling for petroleum or natural gas,
(c)	a corporation (other than a corporation that qualifies under (a)), or
(d)	an individual for a right, licence or privilege to explore for, drill, or take petroleum or natural gas in Canada shall be classed as drilling or exploration expenses for purposes of computing deductions from income.
9.	That with respect to sales of property acquired after April 10, 1962 there shall be included in the income of a taxpayer any amount received as consideration for the disposition of a right, licence or privilege to explore for, drill for or take petroleum or natural gas except where the right, licence or privilege was acquired by inheritance or bequest.
10.	That the right of a successor corporation to deduct drilling, exploration, prospecting and development expenses incurred by a predecessor corporation from the income of the successor corporation
[Stage Direction]
Ways and Means
attributable to the production of petroleum or natural gas from wells, or the production of minerals from mines, situated on property acquired from the predecessor corporation shall not be lost by reason of the fact that the successor corporation assumed liabilities of the predecessor corporation.
11.	That a joint exploration corporation may renounce an appropriate share of the drilling, exploration, prospecting and development expenses incurred by it after 1956 in searching for oil, gas or minerals in Canada in favour of a shareholder corporation whose principal business is
(a)	production, refining or marketing of petroleum, petroleum products or natural gas, or exploring or drilling for petroleum or natual gas,
(b)	mining or exploring for minerals,
(c)	processing mineral ores for the purpose of recovering metals therefrom,
(d)	a combination of
(i)	processing mineral ores for the purpose of recovering metals therefrom, and
(ii)	processing metals recovered from the ores so processed, or
(e)	fabricating metals,
and in such case the expenses renounced shall be deductible by the shareholder corporation and not by the joint exploration corporation.
12.	That the right of a successor corporation to deduct drilling, exploration, prospecting and development expenses incurred by a predecessor corporation from the income of the successor corporation attributable to the production of petroleum or natural gas from wells, or the production of minerals from mines, situated on property acquired from the predecessor corporation be extended to a second successor corporation which has acquired the property from a predecessor corporation which was itself a successor corporation.
13.	That for the 1962 and subsequent taxation years income earned in Canada by a non-resident corporation whose principal business is mining iron ore in Canada, be exempt from the additional 15 per cent tax imposed by part IIIA on profits earned in Canada by non-resident corporations.
14.	That where an employee who is a member of one deferred profit sharing plan becomes a member of another deferred profit sharing plan the amount to his credit in the first mentioned plan may be transferred to his credit in the second mentioned plan without attracting tax on the amount so transferred.
15.	That the amount to the credit of an annuitant under a registered retirement savings plan may be transferred at any time before the maturity of the plan to another registered retirement savings plan or to a registered pension fund or plan without attracting tax on the amount so transferred.
Lawrence T. Pennell: Mr. Chairman, when the committee rose at ten o'clock last evening I was about to reiterate that in my humble opinion one of the most vital decisions facing this government is the extent of assistance the government is going to give to universities and industries for scientific research. The advent of science has brought about a new industrial revolution which is manifesting itself in the economic upsurge and the rising standard of living in western Europe. It has also brought to these countries mass production of automobiles, electrical appliances and other household commodities which are challenging our industries in markets both at home and abroad.
I respectfully submit, Mr. Chairman, that it is an elementary truth that if we are to remain competitive we must not only increase our output but we must increase it at a competitive price. I suggest that by the application of science to production we can lay the foundation to meet the challenge. I am not unmindful of the fact that an allowance of some $40,095,000 has been made available to the national research council. This, however, represents a cut-back of some $2,310,000 from the original estimates for the year ending March, 1963. In my humble submission, Mr. Chairman, this was a step in the wrong direction. Indeed, I believe that the original estimates were not large enough.
I am reinforced in that opinion by that respected authority, Dr. McGeer, of the University of British Columbia. I should like to read into the record a speech reported in the Vancouver Sun of Wednesday, October 3, 1962, in which Dr. McGeer stated:
-a string of research stations, patterned after the national research council, should be established across Canada.
He also said:
The establishment of research facilities would halt this flow of our brilliant and most educated people.
Indeed, if our facilities were of high quality- which they must be-then we might even be able to attract outstanding people from all over the world to come and contribute to the enrichment of Canada.
Then he said:
California estimates that for every dollar spent on research in its universities alone, it derives several dollars return as a result of improved earnings by industry from that research.
Our attention in recent months has been focused on power. Power is essential to development, but it can only be used if we develop the industrial genius to go with it.
It is small thinking to suppose that power alone is the key to our future.
Finally, Mr. Chairman, he said:
To keep pace with rival industrial countries, Canada must be prepared to undertake programs far bolder than anything previously conceived in the history of the nation.
The recent decision of the federal government to cut back on research expenditures was a blunder which will have further sorry consequences.
Mr. Chairman, I turn now to what I suggest is the companion cause of our economic difficulties, the shortage of skilled and semiskilled labour in this country, which is a bottleneck that is confronting our economic development. I concede that it would be distortion of fact to state that the federal government has not given valuable assistance to the provinces in establishing technical schools, but I suggest we should pay more attention to training on the job, with pay if necessary. It is not without significance that the Soviet union trains 130,000 skilled and semi-skilled

technicians each year. I believe that a true yardstick of our economy may be measured by the pool of skilled and semi-skilled help. In the last eight years more than 32,000 skilled and semi-skilled technicians have left this country for the United States.
I suggest, with respect, Mr. Chairman, that we might pick up the principle that we used during the war with the British commonwealth air training plan. It is within the memory of this house that thousands of raw, unskilled young men within two years were so ably trained that they were able to handle with great skill aircraft, radar equipment and other instruments requiring great technical knowledge. They not only were able to use it, but they were able to repair and maintain it with great efficiency. I realize that this system may pose great difficulties. However, I humbly suggest to the government for their consideration that we undertake a crash program to relieve the shortage of skilled and semi-skilled help. Here is one other aspect of the necessity of skilled help that is frequently escaping the attention of our community. The greater the degree of skill, the greater the flexibility and mobility of labour; and mobility of labour is one of the greatest assets in promoting efficiency in industry.
Mr. Chairman, I have concluded my demands upon the time and the patience of this committee. May I add this one, final statement. I believe that every hon. member of this house would agree that the problem of poverty, sickness and injustice in the underdeveloped countries is the problem of Canada. It is in that spirit, and believing that every hon. member of this house shares that view, that I deplore the government's action in the cut-back of their foreign aid program.
(Translation):


Mr. Plourde:: Mr. Speaker, as it is the first time that I have the privilege of speaking in this august assembly, I should like to start by joining all those who commended Your Honour while congratulating you on my own behalf for the manner in which you are guiding our discussions in the house.
I also avail myself with great pleasure of this opportunity of telling the Minister of Finance (Mr. Nowlan) where my county is located, and what it needs.
When saying that I represent the riding of Quebec West, I am connecting it with the city of Quebec. Of the ten parishes which compose my riding, one section only is part of the upper town, because, on the whole, I represent the lower part of the city, a little more to the north.
Various personalities said: that he who has known and loved Quebec never forgets
Ways and Means
it. Indeed, we should keep in mind that Quebec is the only city in North America, which can boast of still having the ruins of military fortifications and to have been, for more than one and a half century, the whole of Canada, a city where every inch of soil evolves some historic event, and, last but not least, a city which a great traveller placed among the five or six most interesting cities in the whole world.
Also, it was in Quebec that the social and economic movement of this our Canadian nation started. This fine and magnificent riding, with 36,000 voters, is mainly composed of workers, and I am proud to say so here in the house.
Those men and women must work hard for their living. We have among us private industries, and a great many small retailers, for whom I shall stand up this year in the house so that they may obtain fair treatment.
I should like the Minister of Finance to stop a minute and consider, more particularly, what part the small corner grocer is playing. Is it not through the small corner shop that the products reach the consumer's table? Are you aware of the immense effort the corner shops have to make to achieve this? Most of them open their doors at seven o'clock in the morning and remain open till 11 p.m. to meet public demand. Do you know that they are now the only ones to extend credit so that people may eat? And what kind of protection do they get from us? None. If they want somehow to modernize their business there are sudden complications. And so what happens? They mostly buy what they need on instalment plans and have to pay the interest rate you know. As we know that those grocers are only working for a net benefit of 4 per cent a year, why would they not be able to obtain a small loan of some $1,000 to $10,000, for they can supply a reasonable guarantee, though not a guarantee representing ten times the value of their loan? In my opinion, the amounts owed to them and the bills they have on hand to prove it should be accepted as a guarantee for a certain percentage.
Big interests take it upon themselves to call you to order, by bringing pressure to bear. When they want to obtain something, it is very easy: they have the required money. But the small industrialists, the small businessmen do not always have the required capital and the means to pay a competent man

Ways and Means
to defend their right. Yet, those small industrialists have given thousands of jobs to our workers in the past, and in spite of the fight they must carry on against this socialistic current which runs throughout our country, they still want to continue to live according to the same principles, but with more up to date methods. For they have to produce faster to compete with the big industries or chain stores seeking their destruction, and we know very well that in most instances, these big industries belong to foreign capital.
When will the government understand, at last, that there lies part of the wealth of our country, and the only way to cope with the plague of unemployment in Canada?
It is a shame to see so many men and women without work when we know that our country could give employment to and take care of a population five times greater than the one we have now. You can argue that the rate of unemployment is 4.1 per cent or 7 per cent; I maintain that there is absolutely no reason for unemployment in the light of all the work that should be done. Instead of dealing directly with the people to see their hardship, our opponents go by deceitful statistics which no one dares to contest. They prefer to forget, to defend themselves with biting speeches, in an effort to lull the people to sleep. Be careful, opponents, because one day you will face a rude awakening, but it will be too late and you will then have to confess your sins.
We, Social Crediters, want to put order where there is disorder, that is to say put money at the disposal of the people, and not the people at the disposal of money, as it is the case today. The people are patient but when they will have enough, do not forget that you were elected by them, and that they will be the ones to withdraw their confidence in you.
You want to know why we have had so many Social Credit votes? Well, members of the old parties, you just go and spend four or five days behind a counter of a grocery store and you will change your mind, and that will make you more cautious in your remarks on the Social Credit wave which is increasing from day to day. If you have never seen distress at close range, you would see it, and you would realize that families have to work miracles to make both ends meet.
There is another area in which our citizens are not protected, and I mean those famous phony $5, $10 or $20 bills which are circulating more and more these days. It is a constant source of concern for the retailer, and I say it is really unfair that the last

person found in possession of a phony bill should be penalized in losing its value. In my opinion, a special fund should be set up to reimburse merchants who have accepted some of those phony bills, either through carelessness or during rush hours. It is practically impossible for a merchant to keep a constant check on money coming in, especially on week ends.
Mr. Chairman, since June 18 last, you have heard all kinds of things against Social Crediters. Why? If we are really living in a democratic country, as we often like to repeat it, are the people not free to select the men they want, without being insulted by all manners you may think of, and especially the way they have been treated since June 18 last.
You believe, gentlemen of the old parties, that when you come back before the electors and that day is near-to ask for their confidence, they will not remember that? No, gentlemen, you are mistaken. People are not as stupid as you think. With the budgets we are used to having, we end up by feeling sick.
There is one item which is never discussed about the budget, and yet it is the most important. It is the one concerning our debt interest, which is increasing yearly. There is never any discussion about that. Neither is there any effort made to decrease it, everyone is agreed on that point, and yet that is your mistake. We, from this part of the house, should like to draw your attention this year on that situation, and moreover we are suggesting to you the way to correct it; that is what my colleague from Lapointe (Mr. Gregoire) has explained to you. If that situation is corrected, how nice it will be to live in this wonderful and vast country of ours. From then on we will be able to say that Canadians are starting to enjoy a normal standard of living, and we shall forever eliminate want in the midst of plenty.
Mr. Chairman, another thing has surprised me since I came to this house, and it was the attitude of our friends on my right. Do you realize that they would have had the utmost difficulty in preparing their speeches if our group had not been represented here this year? And by the way, I would like to tell them that we, from this corner of the house, may not be politicians, but we are happy that we are not. We have freely been elected by the people and for the people.
We are here to act as statesmen, not as politicians. I believe there is a large difference between a politician who has only one thing in mind: how to get re-elected and who

visits his constituents only at the time of the election, and a statesman who works and legislates on behalf of his people every single day of the session.
Mr. Chairman, as long as we have not succeeded in making our fellow Canadians their own masters, you will see us, from this part of the house, standing up for them.
It is unthinkable that foreign capital should take over our country. However, as long as the government will not lower those taxes which dishearten Canadians, the small industrialists and the small home owners, there is no use thinking about alleviating such a situation.
Let us give again confidence to our people through a well balanced economy in using the Bank of Canada, which is empowered with all the necessary authority if the government would only take the necessary measures.
Up to now, we simply managed to see our way through in order to be among the 15 per cent of the people who are entitled to live under this system, and often fraudulently. Is the reason behind this refusal to acknowledge our success, our own refusal to let us be fooled by the trusts and the capitalists we are fighting and our decision to live among the 85 per cent of our people who are neglected by your banking system and who are going into debt in order to live?
If that is what rankles in your mind, wait and see what the future has in store for you. It was said that we were inexperienced, but, gentlemen, did you ever ask yourselves where you acquired your own experience? No, hon. members, we did not come here to put on a show. We came here to defend ideas and principles.
We are for national understanding, but not only in one direction. Justice for everybody and frankness from both racial groups.
Mr. Chairman, according to certain newspapers, one would think that we have become Conservatives. Do you not think that it is a shame? We came here to fight for our rights and we shall defend them before we go back to the people. But we must abide our time and see what this government is willing to do for the people.
I am still a Social Crediter, Mr. Chairman, and I shall continue to be one as long as the present government does not decide to introduce the monetary reform that the popu-
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lation wishes, so that money can be put into circulation in the hands of the consumers in order that the slums so numerous in my district can at last be demolished.
What a shame to think that many families are still without the bare necessaries, that whole families do not eat three square meals a day and do not have decent clothing.
May I suggest to the government a kind of loan for those home owners, similar to the system adopted for the new housing centres. Then, we would see the much needed restoration of hundreds of houses which would make many Canadians happy and would be a credit to our country. Thus, many new jobs could be created, giving our Canadians the opportunity to work, which is their most important right.
If machines are to replace men nowadays, why not reduce working hours to 30 a week, if necessary, since a machine can produce more in less time. Let us pay the same salary to these workers-the goods are there and they will have to be bought. Then we will be able to say that we respect the human being, and our people will have time to develop their knowledge and relax and life will not be so irksome for them.
Under our system, today, individuality is being killed, a great number of heads of families are forced to have a second job to make ends meet.
You may find it funny when we talk about that but when you hear for example the member for New Westminster (Mr. Mather) say that he also believes that what is physically feasible should also be financially feasible, it is different. And yet that is what we have been advocating for more than 30 years.
There is another matter I should like to point out to the Minister of Finance. It is said that to govern is to foresee. Then, what does he intend to do about the young people under 15 who represent almost one third of the population? Would it not be time to train instructors in all sports in general for the benefit of those young people, and set up well organized recreational centres in order to spare them the confusion in which they will find themselves in a few years from now? How many new jobs would thus be provided? It is high time that positive action was taken for the people instead of giving them the impression that they are not wanted in our beautiful Canada which is said to be prosperous.
All this could be done, but, at that, there must be the will to accomplish something. Money is always found somehow to destroy in

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wartime, but for a worthwhile cause in peacetime it is impossible to find. Let us keep in mind that the word "impossible" is the mark of the coward.
(Text):


Mr. Badanai:: Mr. Chairman, it is regrettable that this debate, which has been in progress off and on for the past several days, was somewhat overshadowed for a time by the critical international situation. It is gratifying to us all that the situation has now eased off, and the hope of everybody is that the receding danger of serious consequences will disappear. The crisis, however, should not be considered as an excuse to cover up the urgent need for action to rescue our economy from the doldrums in which it is because of the evident lack of appropriate measures which should have been introduced as soon as danger signals that all was not well with the state of the nation were in evidence.
The Minister of Finance, in his statement on October 22, said in effect that this debate was an extension of the debate started last April, and that it was an important piece of unfinished business. He also pointed out the urgency of the legislation. Well, we of the official opposition did all we could to accommodate the minister in this respect by refraining from prolonging the discussion. However, we failed to convince the other opposition parties that they should comply with that suggestion, but I want to point out, Mr. Chairman, that no one can accuse us on this side of the house of delaying the passing of any legislation.
During his early remarks the minister accused the opposition of downgrading Canada and the Prime Minister. Among other things, the minister said that Canadians are living in the most prosperous year in Canada's history and that our economy is expanding in all directions. There are many people who do not agree with that rosy conclusion. As to the charge that the opposition have been downgrading Canada and have made a deliberate, planned attack on Canada and the Prime Minister, that must be branded as pure nonsense. To my knowledge, no statement was ever made by any member of the official opposition with the intention of downgrading Canada or its Prime Minister. Such statements which have been made by members of the government and its supporters should be treated with the contempt they deserve.
In an editorial about Canadian finances, the Financial Times of October 22 described the situation in this way:
What is revealed is interesting; what is concealed is vital.
That is an abbreviated description of the revised estimates introduced by the Minister

of Finance on October 18. They reveal a reduction of $228 million from the main estimates for 1962-63 which were presented to the house last February by the present Minister Justice, who was minister of finance in the last parliament. The Financial Times correspondent provides in the same issue the widely held opinion that the federal government's deficit for the current year is likely to be at least $600 million, which is much nearer to the $745 million which the former minister of finance announced in the April budget, and the $395 million which was announced by the Prime Minister last June. The obvious reason for this calculation is that revenues are not holding up to the expectation held by the Prime Minister last June.
On this question the editorial had this to say:
This is a far cry from the hopes expressed in Mr. Diefenbaker's announcement of June 24 that the deficit could be cut in the present year to less than $400 million. It demands a drastic revision of the popular expectations aroused by the headlines on Mr. Nowlan's revision of the main estimates.
The objective of a balanced budget, announced by Mr. Diefenbaker in his penitential statements of June 24, and repeated in the speech from the throne on September 27, was never seriously considered as more than a long range project. The cuts in expenditure achieved in the revised estimates show that it is still many years away. Few of them lay the axe anywhere near the root of the tree. Most of them result from pruning the new shoots which will sprout again with renewed vigour each year.
The defence services have been forced to postpone some of their approved plans for new equipment. If the plans were necessary in the first place, they will have to be achieved in double quick time and at double the cost in the coming years. If they were not necessary, as some of them obviously were not, postponement will have the great merit of exposing how silly they were.
Much of the same applies to the freeze on civil service positions. In accordance with a general directive of admirable but wholly misguided intent, government departments are expected to cut their staff budget by 15 per cent through a natural process of attrition. The main result of such a program, unless it is quickly modified, will be to debase the standard of the government service without doing anything to improve its efficiency. On last week's evidence government economy is almost as phony and impermanent as the so-called austerity program.
In view of the opinion voiced by such a responsible publication and many other similar expressions widely accepted by people of diverse political persuasion, and I do not mean amateurs in the field of finance, it is hard to believe that the government intends to go merrily on as though nothing has happened since last April and let the affairs of the nation take their course based on a budget, debate on which was denied to the 24th parliament. Now we are relegated to a debate not on a new budget but on an old budget, and the known economic conditions of the

country when it was brought down bear no resemblance to what has been revealed since.
But, Mr. Chairman, the most objectionable feature of this debate is that it was arranged by the government so as to deny the right of the opposition to move an amendment to the policy of the government. The failure to provide an up to date budget and accounting to the people of Canada as well as an outline of positive action to reverse the present trend of tight money, high interest rates and low national productivity is an added reason why people have lost confidence in the government. I say this notwithstanding the belated announcement by the minister yesterday concerning a new policy regarding automatic transmissions as an aid to the automobile industry. I should like to commend to the government the specific suggestions made by the hon. member for Davenport and others from this side of the house which, if adopted, would give the economy the stimulus needed at this time.
If there is an objective about which the government should be concerned above all others it is to obtain a more productive economy and a higher level of employment, which can be secured by giving attention to the great backlog of needed programs for community development. The Minister of Finance has not made any reference to what I consider a most important proposal, that of creating a municipal development fund or municipal development bank if you wish to call it that, the establishment of which would in no way upset the revised estimates of government spending.
The cost of obligations to municipal governments for the services and facilities which devolve upon them has reached the point where they are taxing their available revenue resources to the maximum. A combination of facts has placed most municipalities in a highly precarious financial position. They have never fully recovered from the deficiency of public services during the war years when they were more or less neglected. The change in population from farms to towns and cities and the increase in over-all population has placed a severe strain on all operations of municipal governments. I submit, Mr. Chairman, that the crisis in municipal borrowing presents the municipalities with one of their major problems.
There is a special reason why the federal government should consider the proposal of a municipal development fund. It is the need to co-ordinate capital expenditures, public and private, in the national economy as a whole. Such co-ordination would create the condition of steady growth and stability which is
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vital to the welfare of both public and private enterprise and which, in other words, would mean a measure of co-ordination with respect to actual requirements. The establishment of a municipal development bank would not mean a new policy of subsidy. From a national viewpoint, such a bank would encourage reliance upon domestic savings and facilitate borrowing within Canada for Canadian needs.
We are all painfully aware of what has happened to the municipalities which a few years ago went to the United States to borrow for their needs and now that their loans are maturing are faced with the prospect of paying back in devalued dollars, thus costing the taxpayers of Canada millions of dollars more. The Canadian Federation of Mayors and Municipalities had this to say in one of their submissions to the federal government in 1961:
The establishment of a national municipal lending agency, by removing one of the most frustrating obstacles to municipal development, would give a sharp incentive to the forward planning of growth and redevelopment. It would help greatly to keep constantly before each urban area a planned capital development program which would not only provide work but would direct such work to the satisfaction of basic community needs.
Shelves of public works as an anti-depression program have long been advocated. As the last war drew to a close and unemployment was feared, the advance planning of public works for this purpose was strongly advocated by the federal government in its statement to the dominion-provincial conference of August, 1945. It is particularly significant, moreover, that it advocated that such planning should be undertaken community by community.
This reliance in a democratic manner upon municipal initiative is important. For it is only at the level of the local community that a balanced program representing the needs and desires of local citizens can be developed. Even a large proportion of federal and provincial works, such as roads, bridges, harbour installations, airports and office buildings, must fit into a workable community program in the interest of all concerned.
I wish to point out, Mr. Chairman, that there is nothing novel about this proposal which I am sure a Liberal government would carry into effect. Municipal loan agencies have existed in Europe since the turn of the century and even before. The credit communal of Belgium was formed in 1860 and has been operating successfully ever since. Similar banks or institutions are in existence in Denmark, Holland, Italy, Spain, Switzerland and Turkey, and in the United Kingdom the public works loan board is in many respects a municipal loans bank.
The need for such a federal-municipal loan corporation in Canada is of the utmost urgency and it is in the national interest to have it established at the earliest possible

Ways and Means
moment. It will enable municipal governments to initiate and carry through needed programs of local improvements and redevelopment for which the urgency is very considerable in many municipalities.
The terms of such loans would be as favourable as possible, consistent with the federal government's own cost of borrowing. This would not eliminate the private investor who would still participate in municipal financing by purchasing bonds from the bank or corporation.
The Minister of Finance had a fine opportunity to introduce a measure under the National Housing Act to provide money to purchasers of old houses. Chief Justice Dana Porter, chairman of the royal commission on banking and finance, recently made a statement to the effect that potential buyers of older houses could not arrange financing. There is absolutely no reason why mortgage loans should be denied to people wishing to buy or remodel an old home. I cannot see the sense of restricting insured mortgage loans exclusively to the builders of new homes.
The national house builders association presented a brief to the royal commission on banking, pointing out that people who want to buy an already built house must have a high down payment or take out a conventional mortgage at a high rate of interest, thus discouraging the purchasers of existing houses. The Minister of Finance missed the boat on a scheme which, without costing the government any money, would have stimulated the buying of old houses which invariably would mean extensive improvements on the properties, thus putting a lot of men to work. I suggest also, Mr. Chairman, that Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation should make direct loans for rental of housing projects in smaller or rural communities, if you will, where it is difficult to get money from banks or mortgage companies. I should like to commend this proposal to the new Minister of Public Works which, if adopted, would expand the area of productive employment.
1 am pleased with the announcement by the Minister of Labour that the municipal winter works incentive program will again be in operation this winter. I may add that while unemployment varies seasonally, being highest in the winter, there is serious unemployment in all seasons. The need is for an all-year employment program of municipal works which would extend both into and beyond the winter season, with provision for scheduling as much of the work as possible to meet the peak periods of unemployment.

One major obstacle to fuller participation in this program by the municipalities is the lack of any provision at the moment for financial assistance toward the cost of materials. Municipalities are willing to embark on capital undertakings which would relieve the unemployment situation considerably if the government were to assume part of the cost of materials in the construction of municipal buildings and other undertakings, and if loans were provided by a municipal development corporation or bank at favourable rates of interest as I indicated a few moments ago. After all, Mr. Chairman, the greatest concern of the moment, as all members agree, is to find ways and means of creating more jobs. I believe it is at this point the government has an opportunity to do something about it.
I am not at all convinced that the curtailment of construction of needed public buildings will materially help the economy. As a matter of fact, it may well have the opposite effect. One consequence of the deletion of government construction is the adverse effect on private enterprise. The psychological implication is obvious. It is a reflection of hard times during which all must economize. The businessman will defer expansion of his business, and he will probably defer construction of a new building. The householder will make the old washing machine do for another year, and so on down the line. The result is that a vicious circle is created and the ranks of the unemployed will grow larger and larger.
It is understood that a budget is designed to provide a policy which will create sufficient revenues to pay fixed and anticipated obligations, and to give every taxpayer a fair deal. We do not question the necessity of imposing taxes which are just and fair and in the national interest. However, there are some which are of a doubtful nature, such as the ten per cent surtax on English china-ware. As everyone knows this is one commodify to which the United States tourist is greatly attracted. However, since the imposition of this tax purchases of English china by United States tourists have been cut by 50 per cent during the last year.
This is a serious matter and is of great concern to the members of the fine china association of Canada. It has had an effect already on employment in stores across Canada, to say nothing of the loss of business, with the net result of a loss of revenue in taxation to the government instead of a gain which this tax was designed to provide. It is a clear case of being penny wise and pound foolish. I suggest, in all sincerity, that a study be made of this matter by the

Department of National Revenue, and the government should give the repeal of this tax serious consideration.
In advanced industrial countries such as Britain, Germany, France and Sweden, national taxation policies are better calculated to be an incentive to industry to invest, sell and expand. According to a news item originating in Birmingham, England, and appearing in yesterday's Globe and Mail, a member of an English trade mission which recently returned from Canada said that Canada is starved for industry. Mr. W. W. Kirk, director of a manufacturing firm said:
Canada needs industry badly and is awakening to the fact that her economy is unsound.
What Canada needs today are men of the calibre of the late Right Hon. C. D. Howe. I firmly believe that when the Canadian people call again upon the Liberal party to form a government, men of that calibre will be in its ranks to direct and lift the economy to its former stable and prosperous climate. The speech by the new Minister of Finance, on the eve of this debate, contained no vision. It was a garbled repetition of statements made by members of the government and its supporters. The only proposal was the creation of an economic development board, with which we do agree and we will support. This revised budget, like its predecessor, is a budget which lacks appeal. It failed to capture the imagination of Canadians to do their best and put their shoulders to the wheel of progress. It is a budget worthy only of a government tottering on the brink, holding to a straw.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Mr. Chairman, the debate so far on this resolution has produced an interesting range of discussion of the current state of the economy and the direction in which it is headed. It is not my purpose in participating in the debate to emulate that whole wide-ranging review. I expect this will be done by the Minister of Finance, when he closes the debate, in order to put much of what has been said in proper perspective. Other ministers have dealt more specifically with subjects under their jurisdiction and my purpose therefore is to deal with some of the matters affecting my own responsibilities as Minister of Public Works, and matters in which I have a direct or indirect responsibility and which have a bearing on the economy.
I do so because I think it is proper that from time to time-what with the mass of ill conceived material, much of it distorted, which is placed on the record by opposition speakers in an attempt to suggest that the economy is stagnating and floundering-to present a true picture so that the country can
Ways and Means
really know what is taking place. Therefore
I	have chosen the field of public works and its related agencies for which I am responsible in order to report something of the progress we have made and something of the prospects for the future, as well as to add this further dimension, this further example of the convincing arguments regarding the general economic health of the country put forward by my colleagues in the debate so far.
Before I come to deal with the activities of my own department I should like to say a few words about the general picture, because from time to time hon. members opposite have made statements, and in some cases produced quotations, designed to suggest that there is no foundation for the position taken by the Minister of Finance and by the government that, while there are still problem areas, nevertheless it is factually correct and indeed encouraging to say that the Canadian economy today is enjoying a period of expansion and buoyancy seldom if ever equalled in its history.
As a basis for my contention I refer to a monthly bulletin entitled Industry put out by the Canadian Manufacturers' Association, an organization which has not, over the last year or two, shown any inclination to be unduly favourable to the government. It is true that in this front page article in the bulletin entitled "Forging Ahead" there are some words of caution, but the words of optimism far outnumber them, and there is a general tone of optimism which runs through the whole of the article. I should like to put it on record as an impartial indication and impartial evidence of the validity of the claims we have made. It reads:
How fares the Canadian economy as summer gives way to fall in this year 1962?
The answer is that it is faring very well indeed. Most of the mid-year statistics relating to business and industrial activity are now available and they make impressive reading.
Industrial production in the first six months of this year was up more than 9 per cent on the same period of 1961, likewise manufacturers' shipments. Retail sales were higher by more than 5 per cent.
Output of passenger cars and passenger trucks climbed by more than 30 per cent in the first half of the year, sales by more than 20 per cent. The number of new residential dwellings under construction at the end of July was 9 per cent greater than a year earlier, while the number of completions in the first six months of this year was
II	per cent greater than in the first half of 1961.
When I come to the housing activities for which I am responsible to parliament I shall have more up to date and even more impres-

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sive figures than that to report to the committee.
The Canadian Manufacturers' Association publication continues:
The buoyancy of the economy in general-
I ask my hon. friends in opposition to mark those words-
The buoyancy of the economy in general and of manufacturing industry in particular was the reason why there were a record number of Canadians at work at the end of July-180,000 more than a year earlier-and why nearly 50,000 fewer were without employment. Significantly, of those who were looking for a job-4.5 per cent of the total labour force-
Let me interject here that the figure is now down to 3.9 per cent and it is strange, as I have learned, that the more encouraging and the more satisfying is the record of unemployment the louder have been the cries of the opposition that unemployment is at an all time high. The violence and virulence of their attacks increase in inverse ratio to the improvement in the situation. Now, coming back to the quotation:
Significantly, of those who were looking for a job -4.5 per cent of the total labour force-only one in three had been unemployed for more than three months. However, this being the midsummer employment peak, it must be said that the jobless total is still altogether too high for anyone's peace of mind and warrants continuing national concern.
So it does, and that concern is being shown in the progressive measures and the acceleration of the measures designed to increase the expansion of the economy, undertaken by the government. For the information of hon. members I should say those last words are mine and are not a quotation from the publication. Hansard will show where I stopped quoting and where my remarks began.
The article then continues:
Even so, what all this increased business activity means-and we ought surely to recognize it-is that more Canadians than ever before are living better than ever before.


Michael Starr: Only the Liberals are worse.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I shall just complete that paragraph so that I will not be accused of distorting anything. I said it included words of caution. It continues:
This is not to say that prosperity is uniform across the land. It isn't and it is not ever likely to be.
The salient feature of the findings of the Canadian Manufacturers' Association is that all this increased business activity means that more Canadians than ever before are living better than ever before.
Mr. Chairman, I have said previously and I repeat that the government cannot and should not claim credit for every single good thing that happens and for every single advantageous development which occurs. We
say our duty is to provide the conditions, the atmosphere, the climate under which, in partnership in enterprise with the Canadian people, our economy can continue the acceleration and expansion which has been going on at an increasing pace over the past year. We do not claim exclusive credit for everything good that happens, but since there seems to be an inclination to lay blame at the door of the government for every adverse situation and difficulty, then occasionally we are entitled to show the country, and particularly hon. members opposite, what the true picture is. To the members of the opposition we are entitled to say "Don't sell Canada short; don't sell confidence. By all means attack government policies where you think they should be attacked but don't attack Canada itself-"


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Edmund Davie Fulton: -"by constantly representing that things in Canada are worse, or not as they are."


An hon. Member:: Things could not be worse.


Edmund Davie Fulton: There is a typical example at the moment, Mr. Chairman, an interjection from the Liberal side of the house that things could not be worse. Words almost fail me. The evidence is there before the eyes of the hon. member who made that interjection, but so blinded is he by the political infection from which he and his whole party suffer that their vision is distorted and they are unable to see the true picture. If it were not so almost tragic it would be amusing, but it is a pity to see a once great party, which laid its claim to greatness on its concept of trying to serve Canada, abandon that concept and decide the only thing that matters is trying to get back into power, even if that means adopting the tactic of attacking confidence in the Canadian economy as a whole.


An hon. Member:: You are crying.


Edmund Davie Fulton: An hon. member opposite says we are crying; but the fact is that the truth is so strange to them that they do not recognize it when it is presented to them, and they interpret it as crying.
However, Mr. Chairman, I said that I did want to deal briefly with some of the activities within the scope of my own department. I would like to come first to the record with respect to building permits. I want to lay before the committee the results of some of the activities the government has been and is carrying out so far as, particularly, they are within the scope of my own responsibility. First, let us look at the area of building permits. The dominion bureau of statistics report dated October 24 states that Canadian municipalities issued building permits-


Stanley Haidasz: What year?


Edmund Davie Fulton: Mr. Chairman, I leave it to my hon. friends to live in the past. This government intends to build for the future. The D.B.S. report dated October 24 states that Canadian municipalities issued building permits in August to cover construction estimated at over $238 million, an increase of 8.5 per cent over the year previously. Non-residential construction was larger by 20.1 per cent than the year previously. This is an indication of the measure of business expansion and is an interesting barometer of the rate of progress and expansion in Canada generally. The residential construction permits were down by 2.5 per cent compared with a year earlier, which is not surprising in view of the record pace of the house building boom over the past five years.
I look for particular examples in my own constituency of Kamloops, where there is- and I can assure my hon. friends of this- unbounded optimism and activity in planning for the future. In the city of Kamloops itself the current year will see starts, or plans have been made for starts on various construction projects totalling close to $20 million, among them being a new $4 million civic centre, plans now confirmed for a pulp mill costing $12 million, and a $1 million addition to the oil refinery adjacent to that city.
I cite the activity in Kamloops, of course, because of my close association with it, and also because it is an excellent example of public and private enterprise sharing in progress. In addition to these civic or industrial plans which I have outlined, we have a planned and progressive program of public works construction to meet the needs of a growing community for governmental services. Examples, Mr. Chairman, are the $400,000 R.C.M.P. headquarters building completed last year; a $500,000 high school dormitory for the Indian residential school, now in the process of construction; a $1 million reconstruction and improvement program at the Kamloops airport, and a contract just let for the construction of a federal building costing over $750,000. So here, Mr. Chairman, you have an impressive example of the partnership of government and private enterprise at work and how it works even in some of our smaller communities. It is an impressive and growing record of planning, construction and expansion by industry, matched by a planned and progressive program of construction of new facilities to provide government services for that growing area.
I have, of course, had an opportunity to examine public works projects elsewhere across Canada. I have been to the cities of Toronto; Saint John, Moncton, and Sussex
Ways and Means
in New Brunswick; Hamilton, and Vancouver. I have plans for further inspection of our facilities in Halifax and various parts of Quebec province. I have met some of our officers in the western provinces, as well as in the maritimes, and I hope to be able to undertake a tour of the north country later on. I am impressed with what is going on in Canada, both in regard to public works projects and in housing development, and I am happy with the spirit and the energy of those of our officers and employees whom I have met, who are doing a good job for Canada. Let me tell my hon. friends opposite that these men are doing a good job for Canada. This great number of public servants do not share in their minds and attitudes any of this attitude of doom and gloom and Cassandra prophecy which seems to be exclusive to hon. members of the opposition. With respect to the program-


Stanley Haidasz: Mr. Chairman, would the minister permit a question?


Edmund Davie Fulton: -in the current fiscal year-


The Deputy Chairman:: Order. The hon. member wishes to ask a question of the minister.


Edmund Davie Fulton: As you know, Mr. Chairman, time is considerably limited on these occasions. I have a large and impressive program in my department and I should prefer to continue. If I have finished before my 20 minutes is up, I shall be glad to deal with questions.
In the current fiscal year, we are pressing forward-


Stanley Haidasz: Mr. Chairman, will the minister not permit a question?


Rémi Paul: Order. Would the hon. member resume his seat, because he is only allowed to ask a question if the hon. member speaking agrees. The minister has indicated that he does not wish to receive a question.


Edmund Davie Fulton: In the current fiscal year, Mr. Chairman, we are pressing forward with such long term programs as the St. John's, Newfoundland, harbour development; a major redevelopment to create a modern harbour for the people of that province and the industries that are based there. This is a $15 million program which has been under way for several years now. It is now near completion. These are examples of partnership with private enterprise for important economic development. Another such project is that at Baie Comeau, where we see a growth of community and where there is a joint development of wharf, storage and harbour improvements with Quebec North Shore Paper, the provincial government and Quebec hydro.


Stanley Haidasz: Why are you punishing
Toronto?


An hon. Member:: Nobody is punishing Toronto.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Mr. Chairman, we have, for instance, such programs as the winter works post offices, under which since 1958 some 258 small post offices in the smaller communities of Canada have been built. These 258 small post offices serve the people of these areas, and they have been built at a cost of some $5 million. Some 50 to 60 more are being planned for construction this winter, thus providing off season jobs for Canadian labour and improvements in the facilities for Canadian citizens.
I should again emphasize, Mr. Chairman, that of course the planning votes have not been touched; the all important vote for preparation, plans and specifications to bring projects from the drawing board stage to readiness for construction are proceeding. Also, this vote is frequently used to acquire sites so that the public works program overall in our planning for the future of Canada is not impaired.
Then in the field of housing, Mr. Chairman, we can say that nowhere is the federal government's investment in Canada's future more apparent and more rewarding than it is here. From 1957 to the middle of 1962 well over
700,000	new homes were built, with the federal government alone investing some $1.5 billion in N.H.A. loans on new residential construction. In the same period direct federal government financing through C.M.H.C. provided 265 long term, low interest loans of almost $160 million for the construction of over 20,000 units of rental accommodation for lower income families and for elderly persons.
Large scale federal-provincial partnership public housing projects have been provided under section 36 of the National Housing Act in growing numbers. Here 75 per cent of the capital costs are borne by the federal government. I mention this particularly, Mr. Chairman, because of something that is frequently

alluded to by members of the Liberal opposition, that they have a blueprint for a program of aid to municipalities. If I had the time to draw together under the compass of one speech all the ways direct and indirect, which through C.M.H.C. and public works we have contributed to the development of all municipal services and municipal housing it would prove a startling and impressive record.


Stanley Haidasz: What about shelters in
Toronto?


Edmund Davie Fulton: Mr. Chairman, I should think it is Toronto that needs shelter from the hon. member, more than the other way around. Since 1957, some 6,000 units have been completed.
I can well appreciate how it is that when we take the occasion to state a little of the truth about a glowing record, hon. members on the benches opposite do not really like it. They want to shout it down, but they will never be able to shout down the facts.
Where housing construction is hampered by older and congested buildings and the lack of serviced lots, land assembly projects are undertaken on a federal-provincial basis with 75 per cent of the cost being financed by the federal government. Since 1957, almost 5,000 land assembly projects have been developed.
I should like to have referred to the municipal sewage treatment loans program under which, since 1960, 355 loans have been made totalling $79.5 million and in connection with which we have received 218 preliminary applications having a loan potential of $55.8 million. This program has been of tremendous assistance to municipalities in the provision of new services, and this is the first time such assistance has ever been given.
I have already told the committee that consideration is being given to a number of plans and policies, among them, housing for the handicapped, the provision of loans for the construction of residences for married students and the expansion of our program of municipal loans for sewerage development. At the same time, the department has under review a number of policies designed to increase the value that the public gets from the expenditure of the public works dollar, among them, increased control of expenditures and, perhaps, a more satisfactory basis for the disposition of the numerous claims which are bound to arise as a result of the widespread activity of the department.
These are only a few of the ways in which it could be demonstrated that, contrary to statements by some members of the opposition that this is a government of inaction, the very opposite is the case. More is going on, and will go on in the future, in co-operation

with the other levels of government and with private enterprise to further the expansion of our economy which is, in spite of what is said to the contrary, going on at record rates today.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I should like the minister to tell me, if he can, how many of the winter works post offices were built in the provinces of Prince Edward Island and Newfoundland.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I would have to put that on the record later. Perhaps the hon. member would like to put his question on the order paper.


John Whitney Pickersgill: It is on record in Hansard now.


Edmund Davie Fulton: It is a matter of when I shall have an opportunity to reply. I doubt if I shall have such an opportunity later today. But I should be glad to get those particulars, as I would for any other provinces.


John Whitney Pickersgill: It is easy to answer. It is a small figure.


Stanley Haidasz: In view of the fact that the Minister of Public Works during his visit to Toronto was impressed by the work of his department in that city, I should like to ask him why he has refused Toronto federal aid toward building shelters in the underground portion of city hall and, second, why he has cut off N.H.A. mortgages on apartment buildings and reserved them just for his own ministry.


Edmund Davie Fulton: What was that last bit?


Stanley Haidasz: Why has the hon. gentleman cut off N.H.A. mortgages in respect of apartment buildings and reserved them for his own discretion?


Edmund Davie Fulton: I do not think the hon. member has the picture at all. I have not refused any assistance to Toronto with respect to the city hall. As to the other suggestion, I can assure the hon. member that as far as I am aware that is far from being the case. Applications are received, and will be processed as they are received. Lending under the National Housing Act is continuing at an impressive level and, as I say, I have plans which, if approved by my colleagues, would lead to a further expansion in certain areas.


Mr. Brewin:: Mr. Chairman, I do not intend to try to match the wide range of the speech the minister has just given. I want to deal with one aspect of the matter which is not so rosy as the general picture which the minister has painted. I enter this debate briefly for one purpose only. I desire to point out, with reference to one particular industry, the tremendous importance of economic planning by the government and others directly concerned.
Ways and Means
I refer to the aircraft industry and, in particular, to the plight of the employees of Canadair Limited which was referred to yesterday on the orders of the day. Most hon. members will be aware that Canadair Limited is the largest aircraft producing company in Canada and it has been described as one of the most progressive of the small group of aircraft producers which make up the aircraft industry in this country. Since January 1 of this year there has been a steady and drastic reduction of the work force. In all, 2,400 employees have been laid off. A further 1,100 employees are slated to be laid off before the end of the year. This makes a total of a 54 per cent cut in the work force of this company. Lay-offs have now reached down to men with 12 years seniority and will soon reach those with 15 years seniority.
This loss of employment means a drastic reduction in the payroll and a consequent loss to merchants. The international association of machinists, in a brief which some hon. members may have read, says this will mean making Montreal into a depressed area. This may be exaggerating the situation. It will certainly make for a lot of depressed homes in that city. Moreover, these lay-offs mean the loss of skilled workers to the aircraft industry and an increased dependence on the United States and other foreign countries where aircraft are manufactured. The indirect result of this substantial reduction in our aircraft industry will affect many suppliers in other businesses. I leave it to members of this committee to consider what it means to the individual lives of the employees who have been laid off, and to the lives of their families.
How can government help? In April of this year, the Canadian Labour Congress in its annual presentation to the government made a recommendation, among others, calling for the establishment of an air transport industry council composed of representatives of government, aircraft producers, air lines and interested trade unions to review and anticipate aircraft needs in Canada. I may say in passing that the trade union concerned with Canadair, the international association of machinists, is a highly respected and responsible union which on May 5 of next year will be celebrating its 75th anniversary. As far as I understand it, the recommendation for the setting up of this air transport industry council has not been accepted or acted upon by the government. It seems to me that had it been acted upon, the council might have been in a position to make recommendations to the government leading to steps which would have prevented the substantial lay-offs which I have described.
I am not qualified to discuss the technical aspects of what should be done, or to suggest

Ways and Means
what guarantees or subsidies may be required in order to preserve this vital industry. However, it does seem to me that India's need tor help in the present border conflict requires a review of the situation in the Canadian aircraft industry. In these circumstances the answer given yesterday in this house to the hon. member for Laurier by the Minister of Defence Production does not seem sufficient. It is true that India may not require the CL-44's which are manufactured by this particular company; but if, for example, India wants a particular type of plane, such as the Caribou plane, and the productive capacity is limited, would it not be possible to direct the attention of the Indian government to the possible suitability of the CL-44's as a proven transport plane?
Indeed, Mr. Chairman, I suggest that the R.C.A.F. itself might review its requirements for transport planes at the present time. We all know that this government is committed to what we call a program of austerity, but I question whether austerity should extend to essential defence needs, especially if the result would undermine the efficient operation of a key industry such as the aircraft industry. If, Mr. Chairman, after a careful review of what can be done for the aircraft industry, and this company in particular, no steps can be taken by the government to stop lay-offs at this particular plant, have the government made any particular plans to absorb elsewhere the unused skills of the workers who will be laid off?
I suggest that this problem cannot be left to the haphazard workings of the labour market, but requires careful economic planning. Of course, the loss of a key Canadian industry, or a reduction in its capacity, needs to be considered, as well as the economic circumstances of the particular industry. Mr. Chairman, the problems of the aircraft industry and its employees are only an illustration of the wider needs for economic planning generally. It is quite impossible to cope adequately with the problems of full employment, economic growth and expansion without close co-operation between the government, labour and industry, and with purposeful planning. The apparent complacency of the Minister of Finance-and I stress the word "apparent" because I am sure there is no real complacency-about the economic situation in Canada is not shared by the skilled workers of Canadair Limited, and I suggest a new approach is needed. (Translation):


Mr. Rouleau:: Mr. Chairman, the Canadian nation like all other nations in the world, went through the whole gamut of emotions during these last few years. We saw the president of the United States courageously oppose

the construction, right at the door of his own country and of ours, of Soviet launching bases, the use of which was surely not for protecting the Cuban territory, and still less for ensuring peace. The world was shocked to learn that despite previous denials by Russians and Cubans, Russia had effectively started to instal such launching bases on the Cuban territory.
The free world supported the American government in its decision to impose quarantine around the island of Cuba in order to prevent Soviet missiles from entering it. Nevertheless, this action did not keep all nations from fearing the worst. The action taken by President Kennedy was necessary, but we all knew that if both parties could not come to an understanding, a world war could ensue, a war capable of destroying the human race.
Quite fortunately, the action taken by President Kennedy set the facts straight for the world and especially the Soviet block. The president's courage bore fruit because the Soviet prime minister saw the light, admitted his wrongs and ordered the dismantling of the missile bases under construction in Cuba, with U.N. supervision.
President Kennedy, following an exchange of notes with Mr. Khrushchev, said that both of them, due to their heavy responsibilities as regards the maintaining of peace, were aware that the situation had reached a point where events could have gone out of control. President Kennedy further stated that he was prepared to examine as soon as possible the problem of disarmament in a constructive spirit, in Geneva or anywhere else.
Without entertaining any illusion, we can still have the highest hopes, after the events that just unfolded.
Men of good will all over the world are asking that the armament race be stopped and, for logical as well as humanitarian reasons, that all countries agree to proceed with a disarmament based on understanding, because the world is threatened with destruction, and that it be done under the supervision of the United Nations, which once again have shown their usefulness as an instrument of peace.
The international events which we have just witnessed, serious though they may be, should not make us forget that we have to keep on looking after the nation's business, which is our business. That is why, for a few minutes, I should like to deal with the problems we have to face immediately.

But, prior to that, in keeping with tradition, I wish to congratulate the Speaker of this house as well as the Deputy Speaker and chairman of committees. My congratulations also to the new ministers, to the cabinet members who have been promoted, and my condolences to those who have lost something there.
(Text):
Mr. Chairman, may I call it five o'clock and continue another day?


Rémi Paul: Order. So that the house may proceed to the consideration of private members' business pursuant to section 3 of standing order 15, it is my duty to rise, report progress, and request leave to sit again later this day or at the next sitting of the house, as the case may be. Is it agreed?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
Progress reported.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul):: Order. It being five o'clock the house will now proceed to the consideration of private members' business, as appears on today's order paper.


NATIONAL ANTHEM
[Stage Direction]
SUGGESTED ADOPTION OF "o CANADA"
On the order:
Private members' notices of motions-Mr. Cote- That this house is of the opinion that the government should introduce in this house a measure to provide the nation with a distinctive national anthem, namely, "O Canada", as it exists at present in the French version and with an English version to be selected by the government.
Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Speaker, the practice with regard to these motions, although I am not sure it is observed in every case is that, it is usual to let them stand on the first calling. The second time, if there is some compelling reason which prevents an hon. member from bringing his motion forward, we permit it to stand again. I think the hon. member for Chicoutimi (Mr. Cote) is absent on government business in Brazil, and on that ground I ask that it stand.


Mr. Speaker:: I appreciate what the house leader says, but I am faced with standing order 48 which is peremptory in its application, except to the extent that the motion could go to the bottom of the list. The motion cannot at all conserve its position but it can go to the bottom of the list as set out in the proviso to standing order 48 (1): "provided that it may be placed at the foot of the list on the order paper upon motion made after due notice".
I dare say there would be no harm in its going to the bottom of the list if the house so desires, but so far as the Chair is concerned there is no possibility of the Chair waiving standing order 48 (1).
Private Bills


John Whitney Pickersgill: Would you see me for a
moment, Mr. Speaker? In view of what has been said by the house leader about the hon. member being absent on one of those parliamentary missions which the house has approved, I suggest that the hon. member should not be prejudiced in his rights thereby and that we should give unanimous consent to leaving the motion where it is until the hon. member returns to the house.


Mr. Speaker:: I appreciate that that seems to be the general desire of the house, but I wanted to point out the problem that the Chair faced, without unanimous agreement of the house, that standing order 48 (1) should be waived in this particular instance. If that is the desire, I will comply with the desire of the house. Is it agreed?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Mr. Patterson:: We appreciate very much the consideration of the house in this regard.
Motion stands.


DIVORCE
Mr. Reid Scott (Danforlh) moved:: That, in the opinion of this house, the Divorce Act, 1930, be amended by extending the grounds for which a divorce a vinculo matrimonii may be granted so as to include desertion for three years, legal cruelty, and incurable insanity.
He said: Mr. Speaker, it is a great pleasure for me to move this resolution for the consideration of the house. It is a resolution which, if it should happen to pass, would really go a long way toward the process of bringing our laws on divorce from the 19th into the 20th century. From the point of view of hon. members of the house who are engaged in the practice of law and are associated with the whole field of divorce law, one thing has impressed us, or certainly has impressed me, has been the tremendous social hardships, the great personal anguish, and the tales of human tragedy and unhappiness that result from the unfairness and the backwardness of our divorce laws in this country. In surveying divorce laws throughout the western world it is actually trite to say that Canada's divorce laws are among the most restrictive in the whole of the western world. As all hon. members know, in those provinces where divorce is available the only ground is adultery, except for the province of Nova Scotia where cruelty is also a ground. As has been pointed out, the purpose of the resolution is to extend the grounds for divorce so as to include three years desertion, legal cruelty and incurable insanity.

Private Bills
If I may say a word about the problem of adultery as the sole ground. From the debates which have taken place previously in the house it is obvious that it is a difficult charge to prove, although I do not feel that collusion is as prevalent as some hon. members have led the house to believe. But the important thing about adultery is that it is rarely the real cause of the breakdown of the marriage. Quite the contrary takes place in actual fact for it is usually something that follows a marriage that is already shattered and has already broken apart.
There are many marriages where a single act of adultery has not resulted in the breakup of the marriage because the parties to the marriage have been able to reconcile their differences, patch up their marriage and continue on their way. In fact, Mr. Speaker, the family courts of Canada from coast to coast are filled with a stream of unhappy people whose marriages are hopelessly shattered but who, because they do not have the technical, legal ground of adultery, remain married to each other.
As I have said, this resolution will bring our divorce laws into the 20th century. It is important to note that most of our provinces have pre-confederation divorce laws, Nova Scotia in 1866, New Brunswick in 1791 with some amendments, Prince Edward Island in 1835, Quebec and Newfoundland with no divorce courts at all, British Columbia and the prairies in 1858 and Ontario having the law of England as of July 15, 1870. What I am trying to point out is that the world has changed since those times, that our knowledge is more up to date, that our community life has changed, that our knowledge is more in the modern sphere and what is needed is a new look at the whole problem of the divorce laws.
Prior to moving this resolution, Mr. Speaker, I had occasion to examine the debates of the house. It is interesting and encouraging to read in the debates views expressed by many hon. members with regard to divorce and its grounds that go far beyond the views expressed in this resolution. Also, Mr. Speaker, outside this house there are bodies of opinion throughout Canada, enlightened individuals and groups everywhere who are cognizant of the need to bring our divorce laws up to date.
Indeed, the real problem is not whether to reform our divorce laws but rather how to accomplish this desirable end. The real problem is that our marriage ceremony is both a legal and a religious ceremony and gives rise to both legal and religious rights and duties. The real opposition comes from those individuals who regard the religious

aspect as everything and take the view that civil rights cannot override the insolubility of the religious tie. If we deal with the matter on this very narrow basis their view is unanswerable, but what it does do is that it disregards the whole problem of the civil rights and duties arising from marriage such as support, custody, mutual help and society and children. It denies to the subjugated majority their right to differ. It fails to face the fact that our divorce laws no longer meet the views and the needs of the majority of Canadians. This is really our essential problem.
Our reluctance for political or any other reasons to offend those people who are opposed to any change in the status quo denies to the majority of Canadians the right to bring the laws up to date and to make them accord with modem ideas and methods. It is against this barrier of method, rather than need, that progress has stopped.
It may be that there is no possibility of a uniform law for all of Canada. Certainly the sentiments of those of the Catholic faith throughout Canada who feel that no divorce at all is possible must receive consideration, although I feel that this view may be exaggerated and has on occasions been exploited for political advantage. The views of such a large body of opinion must receive consideration just as, at the same time, the views, needs and desires of the rest of Canada are entitled to consideration and action.
Second, Mr. Speaker, there are great constitutional problems. The constitutional power of divorce rests in this house; but the method of procedure, the question of alimony, the custody of the children and so on is left with the provincial legislature. There are, therefore, constitutional problems that have to be solved as well.
Then, there are regional differences that have to be taken into consideration. Indeed, Mr. Speaker, in attempting to deal with this very real social problem one is impressed with the fact that the subject is so complex, the issues are so mixed, both from a religious and social point of view, the need for understanding and change is so great, the injustice of our present laws is so evident and the misery that our inadequate law provides now is so pronounced, that one realizes it cannot be dealt with in the one hour at our disposal.
While the discussion which does take place here is useful, in that we have the views of the members on this matter, after watching this one hour go by on various occasions I have a suspicion that this resolution probably will not come to a vote. In view of the necessity of dealing with this social problem,

if by chance this resolution does not pass, I would earnestly urge the government to set up a royal commission in Canada to study the whole question of marriage law, family law and divorce. Let its terms of reference be broad. Let it hear views from all parts of Canada and all groups in Canada interested in this problem. Let it study the laws in other countries and the effects good or bad of those laws. Let it study the need for constitutional reform and jurisdictional problems. Then, let it report to this parliament, either in the next session or the session after or to the next parliament, if that be the case. This matter can be dealt with in this way.
I know all the objections to royal commissions. But surely, Mr. Speaker, this subject is so vast, so complex and so difficult that a royal commission would serve a useful purpose. For example, it would meet I am sure the very difficult problem that faces this house in connection with divorces from the other place. I know that if a broad royal commission were set up a lot of the difficulty could be eliminated. This would give all religious groups, all social groups, an opportunity of presenting their point of view. The establishment of a commission has been supported by religious bodies, by women's organizations and by social organizations throughout Canada. What I am trying to say, Mr. Speaker, is that there is a great body of thought in Canada that wants a reappraisal of this whole field. A fresh, comprehensive look at the whole field of marriage law is required. This problem affects the lives of all.
The failure to make a good marriage can be the end of the trail for many young couples. It can mean failure to achieve a place in the world, a failure to make the best use of your talents, a failure to make a proper contribution to society or to find a place in society. Indeed, Mr. Speaker, in conclusion I should like to say that the tensions we have experienced this week may well make members feel the problems of divorce are really not too important. However, as one person who has worked in this field for some years I can assure you that to those who are concerned with this problem the need is very real. These marriage problems distort and affect the daily lives of the people who experience them. I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that if this minority government could take action and either pass the resolution or set up a royal commission, it would give leadership, hope and help to that not inconsiderable body of public opinion that looks to us in their hour of need. It is in this spirit and with this hope that I recommend this resolution to the house.
Private Bills


Mr. Cresiohl:: I wonder if the hon. member would clarify or define just what he means by legal cruelty? This lends itself to a great deal of confusion.


Reid Scott: Well what it involves, Mr. Speaker, is any act on the part of one spouse, or prolonged acts, which cause serious apprehension of mental or physical injury of a permanent nature.


Mr. Eldon M. Woolliams (Bow River):: I am
happy to be able to say a few more words on this subject which came before the house on a previous occasion by way of a bill and which is before us today by way of a resolution. I was quite pleased to hear the hon. member for Danforth refer to the setting up of a royal commission. I am in complete agreement with that. Whenever we have a contentious or difficult problem, then the best way to gather all points of view is to set up a royal commission. Then, you can arrive at a proper decision. This Conservative government believes in this procedure, so I support his reference to that.
In so far as the resolution is concerned, I should like to repeat what I said briefly on a previous occasion. I think if it is right to have a divorce law at all in Canada it should be one that serves the average individual better than the law does now. When we are extending the grounds for divorce, we must not forget the very purpose of marriage. It is to raise a family, to educate that family and create good citizens. In this connection, I should like to quote from an article entitled "The Rights of Children", published in "Vital Speeches of the Day", I quote:
The emotional health of the children of divorced homes is a far more mysterious and complex problem than is the issue of their economic and educational rights. The children of separated homes, where a cold war continues between the ex-spouses, will have serious adjustments to make. Psychologists who are becoming ever more familiar with the problem of the child with two homes tell us that the emotional impact of such a situation upon youngsters is simply enormous.
Perhaps some child as perceptive as Anne Frank will arise to describe the tensions, conflicts and emotional upheavals that come to a child from having a week end father and a week long working mother.
I might pause here to say that is one important reason for advocating the establishment of a royal commission. I refer to the fact that there are many problems connected with this subject and there are many different viewpoints. There are many children who have been raised in torn homes who are emotionally disturbed, and when they reach maturity in later years this emotional disturbance has an impact on their life.
The central issue of the emotional rights of children centres on the question of visitation privileges

Private Bills
for the person not having custody. The law has given very little thought to this matter and has simply assumed that a father has an inherent right to see his child. It is not even certain whether the right to visitation exists in the child or in the father or in both.
At least a few students of the matter have questioned the advisability of any visitation rights to the father in particular cases. It would appear that the emotional equipment of some children is simply incapable of handling an inherently complex situation. This is particularly so in the cross currents of multi-relationships which arise when both the mother and the father remarry and have children by their second spouses.
The law can hardly be expected to know very much about the unknown sea of the emotional life of children with week end fathers. Would the appointment of an impartial arbitrator be worthy of consideration? Such an arbitrator would be removed from the adversary proceedings of the parents, would have special training in the psychology of children with week end fathers. Would the ap-sult which would not be determined by the accidents of litigation but rather based on the inherent rights to emotional security which all children possess.
The conclusion he reaches is this:
The rights of all children to economic, educational and emotional security should, therefore, be the prime objective of law and society whenever the courts must make a decision affecting the life and future of children.
After all when we have these divided homes, divided by order of the court or by agreement of the parties, then the paramount consideration must be the children. Therefore I feel that in considering this whole problem we should give the most serious consideration to the children themselves. I am sure there are many of us who have had the opportunity to walk into city police cells in various places, in this country and other countries, and have found teenagers who have run foul of the law. In many cases it is not the children who should be on trial. Many times it is parents who should be on trial because it is the emotional disturbances the children have suffered, during the time they were raised and educated by their parents, that have brought about the situation which led them to come before the courts of justice.
With respect to the grounds for divorce, I should like to repeat that I do not think we should make divorce too easy. Whatever we do in this regard to make the law of divorce practical, we should make certain there is a time period from the date of marriage until the date that either spouse could petition to go before the courts of justice to have the marriage dissolved, and I believe that time period should be five years rather than three. That would create the necessary precaution in the minds of people before they enter into the relationship of marriage.
We should also support the pre-marital clinics to assist young people in coming to a decision to accept the proper responsibilities

of marriage, and that is why I welcome, as an individual member, the suggestion that we should have that period so that they cannot get married on Tuesday and go into the divorce courts on Thursday.
It is always interesting to hear the socialists because they feel they are great reformers; but one should take a look at the province of Saskatchewan where we have the only socialistic experiment in government on this continent. It is far more difficult to obtain a divorce in the province of Saskatchewan than it is in the province of Alberta, even though the grounds are identical, the jurisdictions as to domicile are identical, the things which must be proven are identical, but not the procedure.
Saskatchewan has a most cumbersome procedure. First of all an action must be started by a statement of claim. Prior to the issue of the statement of claim the plaintiff in question, the spouse seeking the relief, must secure a particular affidavit called an affidavit of bona fide. After that is filed before the court the statement of claim must not only be served on the opposite spouse but also on the respondent, and if it is an undefended action the procedure is the same as if it were a defended action. Notice of trial must be personally served, or served through double registered mail, on the various parties.
That procedure is very cumbersome as compared with the situation in the province of Alberta. The procedure there in reference to divorce is similar to that in any other undefended action. A statement of claim is issued and then, after waiting a period of time for a reply, the plaintiff can go before the courts. In fact it is possible to start an action for divorce on a Friday and be before the courts in Alberta on the following Monday, while in Saskatchewan it may be six months before the proceedings come before a court. In fact I believe the reformers should start in the homeland from which they spring because, as I have outlined, the procedure there is very cumbersome and difficult.
With respect to grounds for divorce, I endorse the resolution so far as extending the grounds are concerned because when it comes to the proof of adultery, it is something, as one distinguished counsel once said, which never occurs with threes. Therefore for the courts to accept proof they must draw certain inferences. Sometimes when the evidence is very strong the court may draw the inference that it is so strong that the parties may not be telling the truth, and sometimes when the evidence is weak the court may draw the inference that it is too weak.
I appreciate the fact that the evidence presents a difficult problem. I may add that

when the liberal judges, speaking with a small "1", in some jurisdictions have drawn inferences, and drawn them broadly, in a sense they have made it easier to prove adultery even on that one ground. It is quite a hardship sometimes for people to come into court themselves, if the evidence is there, and make certain admissions. It is like hanging your dirty linen on the line, and I say that if it is right to have a divorce law in Canada it is right to have one that will properly serve the individual seeking that remedy. That is why I support the grounds of desertion for three years.
Then there is the question of legal cruelty. Legal cruelty would mean cruelty as defined by the courts, and the courts have already given decisions on it. Then also incurable insanity is a reasonable ground for divorce but I still preface my remarks by saying there should be a waiting period, because there is the sanctity of the home and of marriage itself to be considered. Coming back to what I said in the beginning, the most important thing is the home, the raising and education of children so that they will turn out to be good citizens for Canada.


Leon David Crestohl: May I ask the hon. member a question? Assuming he were sitting as a judge in a court where a divorce proceeding was before him, what would he consider was legal cruelty?


Eldon Mattison Woolliams: There are several cases on the subject and we could get into a very long discussion on that point. However, if the hon. member would like to come to my office after this debate I shall give him a list of the citations.


Robert Jardine McCleave: Mr. Speaker, perhaps I can clear up the burning question of the moment as to what constitutes cruelty as a ground for divorce, since this is one of the two grounds we recognize in Nova Scotia in divorce proceedings. In that respect we are unique in Canada.
There are two aspects of cruelty which would entitle a court in Nova Scotia to dissolve a marriage. One is prolonged physical violence towards one of the spouses so that that spouse is in danger of departing into the beyond if the physical violence continues. The second aspect deals with mental cruelty, but this is not of the variety we hear about in connection with movie star divorces.
Mental cruelty, as recognized in Nova Scotia, is cruelty suffered by one member of the marriage to the degree that that member is in danger of being driven from sanity to insanity. Thus a tremendous burden is imposed on the person invoking cruelty as a ground for divorce, and the number of such 27507-3-74
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applicants is very small in any one year. I would venture to guess there would not be more than five or six.
Before I proceed to discuss the resolution presented to us by the hon. member for Dan-forth I wish to compliment him for his great sincerity in his approach to this difficult problem. We have heard an hon. member from that corner speaking with all his heart for the people whose problems he is concerned with, and also with a mind for the very difficult problems that divorce presents to Canadians. I must say I found his speech refreshing and most interesting, mainly because he did not minimize the difficulties that face Canadians in the divorce field.
The three grounds the hon. member has presented have been considered on occasion by the Canadian Bar Association. Perhaps an indication of the delicacy of this problem and how Canadians are loath to face up to it is the fact that only once, I believe, in the recent history of the Canadian Bar Association has a resolution on divorce passed that body. This is despite the fact that every day lawyers are concerned with the way the practice of divorce is carried on, and every day across Canada good lawyers are refusing to enter courts to handle divorce actions because they feel there is a stigma attached thereto. One would think, therefore, the Canadian bar might have been able to come to better grips with this subject. It did so, I believe in 1954, at the meeting in Winnipeg, at which it suggested the three grounds for divorce contained in the resolution presented by the hon. member. I believe the bar association also added that these grounds apply in particular provinces desiring them; this perhaps to get around the problem that certain provinces would not wish to enlarge the grounds for divorce.
As for the grounds themselves, they are all eminently sensible ones and, I think, most suitable as a partial answer to this problem. With regard to desertion for three years, it has been estimated that some 50,000 Canadian women are the victims of desertion for this period. Therefore you can see, Mr. Speaker, that a sizeable number of helpless creatures would be helped if this were a ground. Desertion, of course, is the poor man's method of obtaining a divorce; simply to hie away from house and hearth.
The second ground is incurable insanity. While the hon. member did not define it, I am sure that as a very careful lawyer he probably has in mind the practice that prevails in the United Kingdom and elsewhere, where very careful hedges are put about this ground of incurable insanity. This is because, after all, we do now recognize that the incurably insane of today may be cured by wonder

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drugs tomorrow and be perfectly sane again. It has been found that, if there is to be a cure for insanity, it generally occurs, in at least 90 per cent of the cases, within a three year period, I believe. If a person is incurably insane for more than that time, there is little hope of cure in the future. I think incurable insanity, if it is understood that there be safeguards written into the law, would be a good ground.
Then legal cruelty is the hon. member's third ground. The hon. member for Bow River (Mr. Woolliams) could have regaled the house with the leading case on this subject from the province of Nova Scotia; but since he did not, I shall. It concerns an event on a bitter December night in the south end of Halifax. A young lady was incensed with her husband and she rushed forth into the night, packed snowballs and threw them through the living room window at her husband, who was seated in front of a roaring fire. The young lady was so overwrought that she had rushed forth without an overcoat or overshoes; she was standing there in her ordinary clothing, packing these snowballs and throwing them at her husband. He, as I say, was seated in quite comfortable circumstances except for the fact that he had to duck about from time to time to avoid the snowballs.
The husband applied to the courts for a divorce on the ground of cruelty. He said to the judge that it was cruel of his wife to throw snowballs at him. The judge pondered this case for some time and eventually reached a decision that, if there was cruelty, it surely must have been cruelty toward the young woman, who had to stand outside in such chilling weather and such uncomfortable circumstances; it certainly was no cruelty to the husband, who did have a nice warm seat by the fireplace. So the case was thrown out. Hon. members of the house who are lawyers may wish to investigate that case, and they will find it reported in the Dominion Law Reports, somewhere around 1947, I believe.
It was suggested here this afternoon, Mr. Speaker, that a royal commission should study the problem of divorce and the related law and problems dealing with families and children-custody, maintenance, and what have you. I ordinarily would not welcome a royal commission approach to this problem. I think we have hon. members with sufficient experience and knowledge to tackle the problem within our own house, so to speak; and we could be joined by gentlemen from the other place, some of whom have also had a great deal of experience in the field of divorce.

As I say, Mr. Speaker, ordinarily I would not welcome a royal commission approach to this problem, but it commends itself for one very good reason. It seems to me it is the best way to confront all the different camps on this matter of divorce; those in favour of large reform, those in favour of medium reform, and those against any reform or change whatsoever. A royal commission would give a chance for all these differing points of view to be heard. I think that is important, because I find, in discussing this matter with Canadian audiences-and I think I made 40 speeches to Canadian clubs on this subject last year-that it generally took about 50 or 60 minutes to even put the problems in perspective. Once this was done, it was much easier to sell the idea of divorce reform. Perhaps the hon. member for Dan-forth will agree with me on this.
One of the concerns of those who are against divorce reform-and I think we had an opinion from the other side of the house the other day which is a perfect example-is that the present state of the divorce law has made Canadians wary of further changes. The present law, I submit, sir is so bad in some respects that those opposed to reform can say, "Well, look; you have already got a bad situation. If you make any further changes, then we are going to have further bad situations". So it was that I suggested the other day in another divorce debate that we should take a new look at the one ground that is prevalent across Canada today, the ground of adultery, to allow divorce, in my submission, where the adultery is on a continuing basis. In other words, this would be where a marriage has broken up and one of the parties has gone off to live with somebody else. It would knock out the isolated act of adultery as a ground for divorce and would substitute -and this was the submission I made the other day-separation for a period of not less than three years. The virtue of this is that it would provide the cooling-off period that I think is essential when we face this problem. There have been cases where people have hastily rushed to a divorce court after a trivial quarrel. Sometimes they have been held back by sweet reason setting in later on. Apparently, you cannot do that in Alberta, because if you start a divorce action on a Friday you might wind up on Monday divorced. So I must quarrel with the rather astringent observations of the hon. member for Bow River as to the practice in Saskatchewan. I do not know whether the law should be cumbersome, but at least delay does provide for a cooling off period which, apparently, does not prevail in the hon. member's own province of Alberta.

These thoughts having been unburdened, may I say in summation that I compliment the hon. member on a reasoned introduction of his resolution. I think his grounds are fine ones, and his suggestion of a royal commission study, which has been supported by the hon. member for Bow River, commends itself to me as one way in which a good, open discussion of this vital problem could be had.


Mr. G. H. Aiken (Parry Sound-Muskoka):: I realize that the hon. member who introduced this motion has a deep interest in the subject of divorce and in welfare matters generally, because the first time I had the privilege of meeting him was in a family court shortly after the election in June. I also realize that there has been an approach to this question today, as has just been mentioned by the hon. member for Halifax (Mr. McCleave), which we have not formerly seen coming from the party to which the sponsor belongs. I am afraid that for the last few years we have been accustomed to hearing from that quarter remarks which were not always complimentary toward the legal profession. I appreciate very much that the new party is now graced with at least four members of our profession who may have a tempering influence on the hon. member for Timiskaming (Mr. Peters) and the hon. member for Skeena (Mr. Howard). At least, the new approach may help balance some very unusual statements we used to hear from time to time. I do not, by this, detract in any way from the efforts of those hon. members, but I do hope we shall have a slightly more reasoned approach to this subject in future.
It is trite to say that the subject of divorce has been discussed in this house ad nauseam for the last five years at least and, undoubtedly, for many years prior to that. However, to a large extent the previous discussions have been concerned with procedure rather than with divorce itself, and the grounds which should be admitted. We are becoming aware that there are a number of separate problems raised by divorce each of which must be dealt with separately. This motion today, dealing particularly with the grounds for divorce in provinces to which the divorce act applies, represents a somewhat new subject and one which deserves our careful consideration.
There are three grounds set out in this resolution, and I think they are very worthy grounds which the divorce act could be extended to cover. However, in the first place, I think desertion after three years might not always be sufficient grounds for divorce. If there is clear and final evidence of desertion for three years the courts should have no difficulty, but I am afraid that if the period 27507-3-74J
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were limited to three years in a number of cases, there might be an opening for desertion purely for the purpose of securing a divorce. I should like to see any legislation which might be brought in in this connection make it very clear that the grounds for desertion have to be well established and bona fide and should not amount merely to a person going away for that period of time in order to secure the dissolution of marriage.
The second ground mentioned, legal cruelty, has been discussed this afternoon and I have spoken on this particular matter on several previous occasions. The phrase "legal cruelty" and, more particularly, "mental cruelty" has always bothered me. I am sure that mental cruelty is one of the things which would be covered by this resolution, and I have always been afraid that if it were accepted as grounds for divorce we should be extending those grounds beyond what is reasonable and proper. Again, this would be a matter of definition within the legislation, and if legislation were drafted, and if mental cruelty were included as a ground for divorce, I should want to see it very narrowly defined so that the type of ground for divorce we often find in certain other jurisdictions would not appear in Canadian courts. I believe, however, that the answer which has been given to this argument at different times is that our courts would not lightly go beyond a reasonable definition of mental cruelty.
We are dealing here with divorce in provinces where divorces are granted by the normal courts in those provinces. As always, the problem of the children arises. When there is a divorce in the provincial courts, those courts are at the same time seized with the matter of the custody and maintenance of the children, if any. I think this is particularly necessary if we are going to talk about an expansion of the grounds for divorce.
The interests of the children should come first in any discussion of this problem. However, there is an advantage in enlarging the grounds, particularly with regard to desertion. So often we find that a deserted wife has been left with the children. Sometimes, of course, they are left with the husband; but most often it is the wife who is deserted. Not only is she left without support, but she is left without any knowledge of what is likely to happen in the future. The question of custody of the children remains unsettled, so long as there is no divorce, and the question of the wife's legal status is also left unsettled. Recently I came across something which surprised me in connection with the employment of married women who are separated from their husbands and who have not obtained a divorce. I have discovered several

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employers who will not employ a married woman separated from her husband unless she has either a legal or written separation or a divorce. The reason behind this seems to be that the woman will be in a state of mental upset, and there is danger that the husband may come to the place of employment and cause distress both to the wife and to the employer. While I think that is unfair, it is also one ground for settling once and for all the status of a woman who has been definitely and finally deserted. I think, under those circumstances, that the expansion of the grounds to cover desertion is very well warranted.
Mr. Speaker, it has often been said that the ground behind a divorce is a breach of the marriage contract, and certainly adultery is a breach of the marriage contract. But if we look at the others, we also find that desertion and cruelty are breaches of the marriage contract, or the marriage undertakings which were made at the time of the marriage. For example, the vow, in most cases, to be true to each other "till death do us part" is not just to be true in the sense of faithfulness, but also in the sense of supporting one's spouse in sickness and in health, and so forth. Therefore, desertion and cruelty might very well be considered, and in most cases definitely are, breaches of those undertakings which husband and wife made at the time of their marriage.
Incurable insanity, of course, is not a breach of those marriage vows because it is something that has happened, presumably, beyond the power of the husband or wife, unless it be the case that one party or the other was so difficult that either he or she brought on such incurable insanity. But aside from that, incurable insanity is not the fault of either of the parties in most cases. Nevertheless, if it is shown to be absolute and final, then I think such ground would be proper. I think that in the case of a young couple great care should be taken with regard to insanity, because, as has already been stated, the parties, or one of them, may be sent to a place where, because of advances in medical science-and these advances are being made daily-that party will recover his or her sanity. However, I think there are types of incurable insanity which can be verified, and such things as senility which has reached an advanced stage, or similar types of insanity which are incurable, might very well be considered suitable grounds.
In summary, Mr. Speaker, I would say this. I believe that the general feeling that divorce should not be made easier is one with which I agree. We in this country do not want to have easy divorce. But this is not inconsistent

with enlarging the grounds of divorce to those which have been set out in this resolution. If they are carefully drafted and carefully supervised, I see no reason why they should result in any great expansion of the divorce rate in Canada; it will simply mean there are more cases which are proper cases and which deserve the attention of the courts. I think, under those circumstances, that the general principle set out in this resolution should be accepted.


Some hon. Members:: Question.


Mr. G. W. Baldwin (Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, I see that
the time consumed by the speakers who have preceded me, and who have been deeply interested in this fundamental problem, does not leave me too much time now. However, I know that there are many others interested in this subject who want to speak, and I hope that this question will come up again for further discussion. One of the hon. members on the other side, I think the hon. member for Cartier, made some inquiry as to what the hon. member for Danforth had in mind when he defined "legal cruelty". Of course, it is very difficult to define. Legal cruelty has been the subject of consideration by many judges and courts both in Canada and England, and I think it is one of those things you had best experience. I would suggest to the hon. member, as we have been exposed to a long dissertation from his side of the house, that if he would come over to this side of the house at some time he might have a better idea of what is legal cruelty.
Mr. Speaker, I have time to make only this one observation. In considering this question, while there is a problem as far as a fairly large number of people are concerned, it is one which must generally yield to the necessity of the many. I would hate to see legislation adopted which would have the effect of making it easier to slip in and out of divorce, as one slips in and out of one's overcoat. This is a deep social problem fundamentally affecting the state. I think it has been established through history that when you see the disintegration of the family you see the deterioration of the state. I feel that this question should be subjected to a great deal of contemplation before we proceed to make things too easy and too simple for people to secure divorce.
May I call it six o'clock?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The time allotted to the consideration of private members' business has now expired.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Lionel Chevrier: May I inquire what we will be doing tomorrow and the rest of the week?


Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Speaker, I would call for tomorrow first of all item No. 13 on today's order paper, the second reading of Bill No. C-71, to amend the Farm Credit Act. The second item will be No. 2 on today's order paper, Bill No. C-3, to amend the Food and Drugs Act. The third item will be No. 27 on today's order paper, the setting up of a sessional committee on railways, air lines and shipping. If those items are unfinished we will carry on with them on Friday. If progress is made on them tomorrow, I will name some other items for Friday.
Business of the House


Lionel Chevrier: Can we have some indication of what we will be doing on Monday and Tuesday of next week?


Gordon Minto Churchill: I have found from long experience that it is better to defer forecast of the next week's work until Thursday evening.


Lionel Chevrier: Then I take it we will not go back to ways and means before the week is out?


Gordon Minto Churchill: I do not expect to go back
to ways and means either tomorrow or Friday, no.


Lionel Chevrier: Thank you.


[Stage Direction]
At six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[Stage Direction]
Thursday, November 1, 1962