1962-04-11

[Stage Direction]
Hon. D. S. Harkness (Minister of National
Defence): Mr. Speaker, I should like to make a statement concerning a new naval shipbuilding program. Approval has been given for the construction of eight warships of advanced design and the procurement of three modern submarines for the Royal Canadian Navy. These ships will replace existing ships as they reach the end of their useful lives in the next few years.
The warships will be built in Canadian shipyards, the first one being laid down late next year and the others to follow progressively. These ships are being designed by R.C.N. technical staffs and will be known as general purpose frigates, because they will be equipped and armed for a variety of tasks. They will be slightly larger in size than the present destroyer escorts and will perform essentially the same function as the Tribal class destroyers have performed in the past. The ships will have submarine detection equipment and antisubmarine armament of the most modern type, guided missile systems for air defence, and a gun armament for surface to surface action and shore bombardment. The general purpose frigate will thus have a first class antisubmarine capability and also be able to perform a variety of other duties.
Subject to satisfactory completion of negotiations with the British government, the three submarines will be of the Oberon class built in Britain. The Oberon class is the latest type of conventional submarine to be built for the Royal navy. The first of the class was commissioned in November, 1960, the second has since been completed and another nine are under construction for the Royal navy. The cost of these three submarines will be about the same as one of the warships to be built in Canada.
In the training of antisubmarine units constant practice with submarines is necessary to achieve and maintain a high degree of efficiency. The navy at the present time has one submarine, H.M.C.S. Grilse, on the west coast, and in addition on the east coast there are three submarines on loan from the Royal navy for training purposes. The three modern submarines to be procured will make a significant contribution to the training of antisubmarine forces both in the Royal Canadian Navy and the Royal Canadian Air Force. The effectiveness of the submarine itself in the antisubmarine role has been greatly enhanced in recent years by the development of new types of armament and detection equipment. The Oberon class submarine is equipped with modern armament and technical equipment for the antisubmarine role. In addition to the training role the submarines will be a valuable complement to the surface fleet and aircraft in undertaking their antisubmarine defensive tasks.
In considering the acquisition of submarines for the Royal Canadian Navy, detailed studies have been made of the possibility of procuring various types of submarines including those propelled by nuclear power. Mainly because of their high cost, but also because of the time required for their construction, nuclear powered submarines were not considered practicable at the present time for the purposes for which submarines are required in the Royal Canadian Navy.
Arrangements have been made for the Royal Canadian Navy to continue its studies of submarine development, in order to keep abreast of technological advances which may make it practicable and desirable to undertake a future program of submarine construction in Canada.
Mr. H. W. Herridge (Kootenay West):: Mr. Speaker, I am sure all hon. members in the house listened with interest to this proposed new construction program for the Royal Canadian Navy. All I wish to say is that in view of the new features involved in this program and the expense, I hope the house will have the opportunity to discuss the

Questions
matter and ask questions under item No. 724 of the supplementary estimates, "Operation and maintenance, Royal Canadian Navy".


Mr, Chevrier:: Don't be too sure.

On the orders of the day:


Hon. Lionel Chevrier (Laurier):: I wish to direct a question to the Minister of National Defence. Following the statement he made earlier concerning the naval construction program may I ask him whether the cost of this naval construction program, or any part thereof, is contained in the main estimates which have been tabled in this house for
1962-63.


Hon. D. S. Harkness (Minister of National Defence):: Yes, Mr. Speaker. The long lead items for the first of these general purpose frigates, which will be laid down next year, are contained in the estimates for the coming fiscal year, the year we are now in.


Lionel Chevrier: Can the minister say what amount that covers?


Douglas Scott Harkness: I could not say without consulting the estimates and the details backing them up, which I think the hon. member probably realizes.



THE SENATE


Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prime Minister) moved: that the house go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following resolution, which has been recommended to the house by His Excellency:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to provide for the payment out of the consolidated revenue fund, to any person who was a member of the Senate on April 6, 1962, but who ceases to be a member at the age of seventy five years or more by reason of an amendment to section 29 of the British North America Act, 1867, of a lifetime retirement annuity equivalent to three quarters of the amount per annum of the sessional allowance he was receiving under the Senate and House of Commons Act at the time when he ceased to be a member.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. Fisher: Has the government been negotiating through the Minister of Transport with Quebecair Limited;

and, if so, in these negotiations, has the government considered it necessary to obtain a report on the officials and the shareholding of Quebecair Limited; and, who are the directors of this company?


Mr. Balcer:: When the supplementary estimates were before the house on March 23 I indicated that the air transport board had made a detailed investigation of the economic position and operations of Quebecair. This of course required full access to all matters pertaining to the organization and operation of this company, but the information provided in this connection was made available to the air transport board on a confidential basis.


*U.S. CURRENCY IN FOREIGN EXCHANGE FUND
Mr. Benidickson: 1.	What was the value of U.S. dollars and gold in our foreign exchange fund as of March 31, 1962?
2.	What claims contracts and/or other obligations, with a term of 6 months or less, for future deliveries of gold or foreign currencies exist against our exchange reserves?


Mr. Fleming (Eglinlon):: 1.	As indicated in the figures published in the Canada Gazette of April 7, 1962, Canada's official holdings of gold and U.S. dollars as of March 31, 1962 amounted to $1,709.4 million in terms of U.S. dollars.
2.	The annual reports tabled by the Minister of Finance under the Currency, Mint and Exchange Fund Act since 1953 have provided figures of the over-all position of the exchange fund account from which it is possible to deduce the net amount of forward exchange contracts and overnight contracts outstanding as at the end of each month of the preceding year. It has not been the practice to publish this information on a more current basis.


* SECTION 96A(2) , INDIAN ACT-REFERENDA
Mr. Howard: 1.	Since September 29, 1961, has any referendum been held among the electors of any Indian band in British Columbia respecting the bringing into force of section 96A(2) of the Indian Act; and, if so, what is the name of each such band, and the results, by ayes and nays, of the referendum therein?
2.	What action has been taken, or is planned, with respect to the results of the said referenda?


Mrs. Fairclough:: Since the answer to this question involves some two pages of information and statistics, could I have permission to have it printed in Hansard?


Mr. Speaker:: Is the house agreed?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
[Editor's note: The answer referred to above is as follows:]
1.

Yes, as follows:
Band	Date referendum held
Bonaparte	January 18, 1962 ..
Lillooet	March 7, 1962 	
Massett	February 17, 1962 .
Skidegate	February 10, 1962 .
Kincolith	December 5, 1961 .
Metlakatla	March 15, 1962 . ..
Fort George	November 14, 1961
Necoslie	November 23, 1961
Stellaquo	December 12, 1961
Stony Creek	February 6, 1962 .
Canyon City	January 5, 1962 ..
Gitlakdamix	January 5, 1962 . .
Greenville	January 5, 1962 ..
Anderson Lake	December 28, 1961
Klahoose	February 28, 1962 .
Mount Currie	December 29, 1961
Sechelt	January 4, 1962 ...
Sliammon	March 14, 1962 . ...
Canim Lake	February 27, 1962 .
Questions
Ayes	Nays
18	2
18	4
108	12
90	3
100	27
29	5
16	2
72	7
23	12
39	18
21	5
92	20
96	25
26	1
13	2
140	39
76	4
32	9
51	8
2. (a) Action has been taken in accordance with subsection 1 of section 96A of the Indian Act and proclamations have been issued declaring subsection 2 of section 96A of the Indian Act to be in force in the Indian reserves belonging to the following bands:
Band
Date of Proclamation
Bonaparte
Kincolith
Fort George
Necoslie
Stellaquo
Canyon City
Gitlakdamix
Greenville
Anderson Lake
Mount Currie
Sechelt
February 28, 1962 February 16, 1962 February 16, 1962 February 16, 1962 February 16, 1962 February 16, 1962 February 16, 1962 February 16, 1962 February 28. 1962 February 28, 1962 February 28, 1962
2. (b) Action has been taken in accordance with subsection 1 of section 96A of the Indian Act. Proclamations bringing subsection 2 of section 96A of the Indian Act into force in the Indian reserves belonging to the following bands are now awaited.
Band: Lillooet, Massett, Skidegate, Metla-katla, Stony Creek, Klahoose, Sliammon, Canim Lake.


* LOANS TO SMALL BUSINESSES
Mr. Pitman: How many loans were made under the Small Businesses Loans Act (Bill C-40 of last session) in the year 1961. in the following amounts: (a) up to $500 (b) $500 to $1,000 (c) $1,000 to $5,000 (d)	$5,000 to $10,000	(e)	$10,000 to $15,000	(f)
$15,000 to $20,000 (g) $20,000 to $25,000?


Donald Methuen Fleming: The answer is as follows: (a) nil; (b) 119; (c) 1,191; (d) 893; (e) 298; (f) 178; (g) 298.
* INDIANS EMPLOYED IN SURVEYS OF RESERVES Question No. 425


Mr. Howard:: Are any Indians, other than Mr. Joseph Dreaver, employed to survey the Indians of any part of Canada in respect of their reactions and recommendations concerning the findings of the joint committee of the Senate and House of Commons on Indian affairs: and, if so, with respect to each such person what is (a) his name and address (b) the date of the commencement of his employment (c) the terms of his employment (d) his salary (e) his obligation to report his findings both as to content and time (f) his length of employment either actual or estimated (g) the names of the reserves which he has visited during the course of his survey, and the dates upon which he visited each such reserve (h) the procedures and systems which he uses in the conduct of the survey with an indication as to who developed them, and (i) his position, if any, within the Indian community?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: The answer to the first part of this question is no. The remaining parts are therefore not applicable.


COMMERCIAL COAL SURVEY
Mr. Morris: 1.	Is a commercial coal survey being conducted by the fuels and mining practice division of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys; and, if so, does it involve regular sampling of the commercial products from (a) all Canadian coal mines (b) imported Kentucky, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and West Virginia bituminous coals?
2.	Do the size designations of the coals in the survey conform with specifications incorporated in the Canadian government specifications board guide for federal government purchasing departments in publication 18-GP-1A?

Motions for Papers
3.	Are the results of the sampling made known to
(a)	federal government purchasing departments
(b)	the general public?
provincial government or provincial government agency, or any other person, regarding the release
of John Papalia.
Answer by: Mr. Flynn:
1.	(a) Yes.
(b) No.
2.	The commercial coal survey includes all commercial products produced at the mines (with screens of various sizes and types) whether or not the sizes relate to CGSB specification 18-GP-1A.
3.	(a) Yes.
(b) Yes.


*ORDER IN COUNCIL COVERING PRINTING OF BILL OF RIGHTS
Mr. Malheson: By what order in council did the queen's printer cause to be printed and published 20,000 copies of the illuminated document headed the Canadian Bill of Rights containing part I only of chapter 44, statutes of Canada 1960, 8-9 Elizabeth II, together with a signed quotation from a speech of the Right Hon. John G. Diefenbaker delivered in the House of Commons debates on July 1, 1960?


Mr. Dorion:: No order in council authorized, or was necessary to authorize, the printing and publication of the document in question.


MINIMUM WAGE RATE, GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS, RED DEER AREA, ALTA.
Mr. Herridge: Has the Minister of Labour received a communication from a representative of Burns and Dutton-Poole-Oland advocating an upward revision in the minimum wage rate of labourers on government contract construction work in the Red Deer area, Alberta; and, if so, what were the details of the communication, and what reply has been made by the minister?
Answer by: Mr. Starr:
No such communication has been received from a representative of Burns and Dutton-Poole-Oland.


Mr. Bell (Saint John-Alberl):: We are
prepared to accept this motion subject to the reservation that correspondence of a private and confidential nature should not be produced. Documents and correspondence exchanged between a department or an agency or branch thereof and any other department, branch or agency have always been regarded as privileged and should not be produced. When contacted, the province of Ontario did not express any wish against the tabling of the correspondence subject to the above mentioned reservations.


Mr. Speaker:: Subject to the reservations expressed, is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion?


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 44-Mr. Howard:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all correspondence, telegrams, and other documents, other than directives, exchanged between the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration or the Indian affairs branch and any employee or officer of the Indian affairs branch since January 1, 1954, relating to all proposed or actual sales of timber situated on the Tsimpsean Indian reserve no. 2.
Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Speaker, since these are privileged documents I am sorry 1 am unable to comply with the request.


Mr. Speaker:: Is the hon. member prepared to withdraw his motion?


Charles Benjamin Howard: No. It is most necessary to indicate the attitude of the house in this regard.
The house divided on the motion (Mr. Howard) which was negatived on the following division:


QUESTION PASSED AS ORDER FOR RETURN
[Stage Direction]
++YEAS
Messrs:

Mr. Morris: What was the total dollar value of exports of Canadian produce to all overseas countries via the United States in each of the years 1952 to 1959 inclusive?



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS


[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 41-Mr. Marlin (Essex East):
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of all' correspondence and memoranda between the Department of Justice and any other government department or agency,

Herridge
Howard
Martin (Timmins)
Aiken
Aitken, Miss
Allard
Allmark
Badanai
Balcer
Baldwin
Barrington
Baskin
Batten
Beech
Bell (Carleton)
Peters Regier Winch-6.
++NAYS
Messrs:
Bell (Saint John-Albert
Belzile
Best
Bigg
Bissonnette
Boivin
Boulanger
Bourbonnais
Bourget
Bourque
Brassard (Lapointe. Broome

Browne (St. John's West) Browne (Vancouver-Kingsway)
Bruchesi
Brunsden
Campbell
(Lambton-Kent)
Cardiff
Cardin
Caron
Carter
Casselman, Mrs.
Cathers
Chambers
Charlton
Chatterton
Chevrier
ChurchiU
Clermont
Coates
Cooper
Creaghan
Crestohl
Crouse
Danforth
Denis
Deschambault
Diefenbaker
Dorion
Doucett
Drouin
Drysdale
Dubois
Dupuis
Eudes
Fairclough, Mrs.
Fairfield
Fleming (Eglinton) Flemming (Royal)
Flynn
Forbes
Forgie
Fortin
Fournier
Frechette
Garland
Grafftey
Granger
Green
Grenier
Grills
Gundloek
Hales
Halpenny
Hamilton (Qu'Appelle)
Harkness
Hees
Hicks
Hodgson
Horner (The Battlefords)
Howe
Johnson
Jones
Kennedy
Kindt
Knowles
Korchinskl
Kucherepa
Lahaye
LaMarsh, Miss
Lambert
Latour
Leduc
Legere
Lennard
Lessard
Letourneau
Macdonald. Mrs.
Macdonnell
MacEwan
Maclnnis
MacLean (Queens)
MacLellan
Macnaughton
MacRae
McBain
McCleave
McDonald
(Hamilton South) McFarlane McGee Mcllraith McIntosh McLennan McMillan McPhillips McWilliam Mandziuk Martel
Martin (Essex East)
Matheson
Matthews
Meunier
Michaud
Milligan
Monteith (Perth)
Monteith (Verdun)
Montgomery
More
Morissette
Morris
Morton
Muir (Cape Breton North and Victoria) Muir (Lisgar)
Murphy
Nasserden
Nesbitt
Nixon
Noble
Nowlan
Nugent
O'Hurley
O'Leary
Pallett
Parizeau
Pascoe
Paul
Pearson
Phillips
Pigeon
Rapp
Regnier
Rlcard
Richard (Kamouraska) Richard (St. Maurlce-Lafleche)
Roberge
Robichaud
Robinson
Rogers
Rompre
Rouleau
Rynard
Simpson
Skoreyko
Slogan
Small
Smith (Calgary South)
Smith (Simcoe North)
Smith (Winnipeg North)
Southam
Starr
Stearns
Stefanson
Stewart
Tardif
Taylor
Inquiries of the Ministry
Thomas
Thompson
Thrasher
Tremblay
Tucker
Valade
Walker Webb White Winkler Wratten-188.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 49-Mr. Maiheson:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all instructions given to the queen's printer and to the draftswoman, Yvonne Diceman, for the preparation and printing of the illuminated document headed "The Canadian Bill of Rights".
Noël Dorion: Mr. Speaker, no written
instructions were given to the draftswoman for the preparation of the document in question. The plans she submitted were accepted by a committee of officials of the Department of Public Printing and Stationery. Since the papers requested by the hon. member to be produced do not exist, perhaps he would be agreeable to withdrawing the motion.
Order discharged and motion withdrawn.



CASTLE HILL RESTORATION, PLACENTIA, NFLD.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 51-Mr. Carter:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of all correspondence between the provincial government of Newfoundland and the historic sites and monuments board of Canada since January 1, 1961, with reference to the restoration of Castle Hill at Placentia, Newfoundland, as a national historic site.
Mr. Hamilton (Qu'Appelle):: I have had a talk with the hon. member for Burin-Burgeo and he has agreed to accept all this correspondence directly, rather than go through the formality of an address to His Excellency. In the circumstances I would ask that the motion be withdrawn.
Order discharged and motion withdrawn.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. L. B. Pearson (Leader of the
Opposition): I wish to ask if the Prime Minister is in a position at this time to deal with the question I asked him yesterday about the order of business and the Easter recess.
John George Diefenbaker: I would say to the hon. gentleman in answer to his question of yesterday, as to whether I would follow the normal course at this time of the session and inform the house what measures the government hopes to have passed before the Easter recess, as well as their order of priority, that for today,

Inquiries of the Ministry as the house knows, there are three items, Nos. 1, 2 and 3 on the order paper. After having dealt with them we intend to cover the additional list of legislative measures on the order paper.
As to the question of priority-and I am saying this without desire to be in any way provocative-I regret the slow progress being made. After the business announced for today is disposed of, we will deal with the redistribution and Senate measures. Then, as the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate pointed out, the supplementary estimates and appropriation bill have to have attention. We shall then be in a position to resume the budget debate.
So far as the business for next week is concerned, that will be announced in due course. At the moment it is proposed that the pre-Easter session, in any event, should conclude on April 19. I am most anxious to secure attention for the items I have mentioned, particularly the redistribution measure and the Senate measure, and then of course the supplementary estimates.
I might add that the Leader of the Opposition asked whether there was anything else to come before the house. Two resolutions will be placed on the order paper in respect of certain recommendations made by the O'Leary commission. They will be under the name of the Minister of National Revenue.


Mr. Pearson:: In thanking the Prime Minister for his information might I ask him when he expects the house to resume after the Easter recess?


John George Diefenbaker: Well, Mr. Speaker, time will tell.


Lionel Chevrier: As a supplementary question to the Prime Minister, does he intend to put the usual motion on the order paper for the Easter recess?


John George Diefenbaker: I can only say to the hon. gentleman that when we have concluded the matters to which I have referred I think we should have sufficient time to make any motion that will be appropriate, having regard to all the circumstances.
(Translation):



CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Roger Parizeau (Lake St. John):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to address a question to the Minister of Transport. Could he inform us whether, following representations made by Conservative members, the Canadian National Railways intend to issue bilingual cheques


throughout this country, thus following the example set by the government of Canada?


Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker, knowing the untiring interest of the hon. member for Lake St. John in the cause of bilingualism, it gives me great pleasure to inform the house that at my suggestion, the C.N.R. will in future, issue all their cheques in both languages.
(Text):



NATIONAL DEFENCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. D. S. Harkness (Minister of National
Defence): On Monday, April 9 the hon. member for Kootenay West made certain allegations in the guise of a question in the following form:
Does the minister know that the C.O., Lieutenant Colonel Reynolds, and Major Lee, officer commanding the 17th field squadron of the 8th field regiment R.C.E. (militia), demanded that a captain and two N.C.O.'s resign their membership in the New Democratic party and submit proof of their resignations to him in writing?
I have now had a report in connection with this matter, and the facts are not just as they may have been made to appear by the question. The situation is as follows. The officer referred to is a chaplain who is attached to the 17th field squadron and who happens to be the local federal candidate for the N.D.P. The only request made to him was that he should refrain from political activity in the armoury. That was all. Such activity, as I stated in the house on Monday, is not permitted on any property occupied by a military unit. I understand that the C.O. has since received a written request from this officer to resign from the militia.
The two N.C.O.'s in question are both on full time call-out duty relating to the special militia training courses. A report was received late in March by the C.O. that some effort was being made prior to a military parade to influence other members of the militia unit in favour of the N.D.P. This was considered by the C.O. as being contrary to regulations. It was also drawn to the attention of the C.O. that the senior of the two N.C.O.'s had been elected president of a newly formed New Democratic party club, and that the other N.C.O. had been made chairman of the membership committee in the same club.
In view of these circumstances both men were given the option of ceasing their political activities or withdrawing from their duties in the militia. Both have since withdrawn from their active offices in the N.D.P.
I think I should make it clear that service regulations forbidding active participation in

the affairs of any political organization or party apply to all members of the regular forces whether on or off military establishments. The regulations with respect to members of the reserve forces apply to such activities on service establishments or when engaged in strictly military duties.
Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Speaker, I was very interested in the minister's report, and I do not believe it is a true report-


Mr. Grafftey:: Question.


Some hon. Members:: Withdraw.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member has probably temporarily overlooked the rule of the house that the answers which are given to oral questions are not subject to comment. They may be elucidated by further questions, but they cannot be commented upon.


An hon. Member:: That is right.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I was coming to that.


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member is quite out of order in making a flat statement of that kind which relates to the report the minister gave to the house. It may be a matter for question or debate at the appropriate time, but certainly not on orders of the day.


Some hon. Members:: Withdraw.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Speaker, I withdraw any implication that the minister gave me an untrue answer consciously. I should say, to correct my approach to this question, that I believe the minister's answer is based on false information. My question of two days ago was based on a letter from the chaplain, who is the Anglican vicar of the Kootenay lakes in Creston. Does the minister think he does not tell the truth


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Mr. Speaker:: I think the hon. member is seeking to argue about the information rather than to get more information, which is not appropriate at this time.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. member has cast a serious implication on the officers of this unit and of western command in the statements he has made, and I think he should withdraw-


An hon. Member:: No.


Douglas Scott Harkness: -the implication that he has cast on their honesty. I think it is most unfair that any member of this house should say that officers in Her Majesty's service have given false reports, as the hon. member has done.
Inquiries of the Ministry


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Does the minister know that this lieutenant colonel-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The minister has put the proposition to the hon. member for Kootenay West that what he has said is unfair, and has asked the hon. member to withdraw the implication of his statement. I will give the hon. member the floor to indicate what he wishes to do.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I refuse to withdraw. I believe that the information I have received is correct and true. I have had other experiences in this regard.


William Heward Grafftey: You can't back out.


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Mr. Speaker:: Order.


Mr. Winch:: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the minister to withdraw his aspersions against a member of the clergy.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Mr. Speaker, I think it was absolutely clear from what I said that I cast no aspersions on any member of the clergy. I gave a factual report of what was the exact situation, and it is the hon. member for Kootenay West who has been casting aspersions on the honesty of other people involved.


William Heward Grafftey: Demagogic nonsense. (Translation):



UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. N. Tremblay (Roberval):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Health and Welfare. Is the minister aware of the fact that, in the last few days, people in my constituency have been getting anonymous telephone calls warning them that the Quebec government intends to interrupt payment of the allowances they are receiving under the federal-provincial unemployment assistance program or to conduct closer investigations in this regard, should these people support the Conservative government in the next election?
Could the minister reassure the people concerned in this matter?


An hon. Member:: The culprits are Union Nationale supporters.

Inquiries of the Ministry
(Text):


Hon. J. W. Monteith (Minister of National Health and Welfare):: Mr. Speaker, certainly I have never heard of any such action, and actually no such action would be taken.



REQUEST FOR NUMBER OF CLAIMANTS RECEIVING BENEFITS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. J. Robichaud (Gloucester):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Labour. My question is based on the reply which I received to a starred question on April 4, as reported at page 2485 of Hansard. My question was:
What was the total number of active claimants for unemployment insurance benefits, as of February 28, 1962?
I was told by the parliamentary secretary to the minister that the information was not then available. I now wish to ask the minister whether he or his office staff have made any attempt to secure the figures, which normally are available within three or four weeks after the last day of each month.


Hon. Michael Starr (Minister of Labour):: Mr. Speaker, I do not know how accurate that last statement is, but to the first part of the question the answer is no.


Hédard-J. Robichaud: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Could the minister confirm or deny that the total number of active claimants at that date exceeded 700,000?


Michael Starr: Mr. Speaker, I do not know where the hon. member gets these figures-


Mr. Mcllraith:: Why don't you give them?


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask-


Hon. Paul Martin (Essex East):: A supplementary question-


Mr. Speaker:: If the hon. member is willing to defer, I will hear the supplementary question.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Minister of Labour, in view of the fact that this parliament is going to be dissolved shortly, as the Prime Minister indicated-


An hon. Member:: How do you know?


Paul Joseph James Martin: -if he will arrange to give us this information within the course of the next few days.


Michael Starr: Mr. Speaker, the first part of the statement made by the hon. member for Essex East is news to me, but if he wants any information of that nature which involves statistics, all he has to do is put a question on the order paper-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Michael Starr: -and the answer, if available, will be given, as has always been the practice.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Seven hundred and eighteen thousand.



TRANSPORT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. G. H. Aiken (Parry Sound-Muskoka):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Transport. Is the minister's department considering any change in the location of the headquarters of the Parry Sound marine agency?


Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker, there is absolutely no basis for this suggestion. The agency at Parry Sound is going to stay there, and there is no intention on the part of the department to move the agency from there.



RICHELIEU WATERWAY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Maurice Johnson (Chambly-Rouville):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs. Could the minister tell the house whether the Richelieu waterway inquiry has now been referred to the international joint commission?


Lionel Chevrier: The minister answered that.


Hon. Howard C. Green (Secreiary of State for External Affairs):: Mr. Speaker, the
Canadian government has submitted a proposal that is now under consideration by the United States department of state. I hope agreement will be reached very shortly. This joint submission will then be submitted to the commission.
(Translation):


Mr. Yvon Dupuis (St. Jean-Iberville-Na-pierville):: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Is the minister aware that if he had referred the survey for that important project as early as 1958 as we suggested, he could now give the results of such a survey, instead of hoping to be able to submit the proposal to an international commission?


Mr. Pigeon:: It could also have been referred to it ten years ago.


An hon. Member:: It could have been twenty years ago.

(Text):



SHIPPING


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of Labour and ask the minister whether he has had an opportunity of looking at the questions which were put to him the day before yesterday concerning the work stoppage and the dispute between the pilots and the shipping federation. Is the minister now in a position to state whether or not that work stoppage is legal?


Michael Starr: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Transport has fully explained the situation in so far as the pilots are concerned. I have nothing to add to his explanation. This matter does not come under the provisions of the Industrial Relations and Disputes Investigation Act. The pilots, being under certificate from the government, hold a relationship with the shipping people and the government through the Department of Transport. This is not the ordinary relationship of employer and employee. The precise nature of the relationship has been described by the Minister of Transport. It is not a matter to be elucidated under the industrial relations act.
As to whether or not this stoppage constitutes a strike within the legal definition of the term, or whether or not this is a legal strike, I certainly do not intend to give a ruling at this time. In fact, in putting his question the hon. member is asking me to give a legal opinion, which I suggest would be most improper for me to do.
(Translation):


Paul Léo Maurice Johnson: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Minister of Transport a question.
Has the minister any report to make to the house with regard to progress made in the settlement of the pilots' strike?


Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker, this morning I met the three pilot spokesmen. We discussed the situation for several hours. I am having another meeting with them this afternoon. I must say that we did make some progress; we reviewed the position, and I am confident that the issue will soon be settled to the advantage of all parties concerned and of the public in general.


Lionel Chevrier: Could the minister tell us what the situation is regarding the investigation on all questions relating to
Inquiries of the Ministry pilotage, which he mentioned yesterday and which was to be discussed by the shipowners, the pilots and the minister's colleagues?


Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker, I do not think it would be proper to give any detailed information regarding the talks we had this morning. I do not believe it would be in the public interest to give particulars on any point raised during that discussion. All I can say at this time is that we started negotiations and are pursuing them.


Paul Léo Maurice Johnson: Mr. Speaker, I have another question-
(Text):


Mr. Speaker:: Is the hon. member asking a supplementary question?


Paul Léo Maurice Johnson: No.


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member for Springfield.



INDIAN AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Joseph Slogan (Springfield):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration. In view of the concern expressed by a number of Indian bands in Manitoba as to the effect of voting in any federal election on the rights of Indians under treaty and on their status as Indians under the Indian Act, could the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration give an unqualified assurance that the status and rights of Indians will not in any way be affected if they exercise the right to vote conferred on them by the legislation passed in this house in 1960?


Mr. Speaker:: The question is, strictly
speaking, not in order because it asks the minister to interpret legislation. However, this may be a matter on which the minister's view is desired to be known, and I would not stand in the way on a technicality.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I am reasonably sure that most members of this house would wish to have placed on the record such an assurance as the hon. member seeks, because we do not want the Indians to be under any misapprehension as to their rights and the protection of those rights. I have prepared a short answer to the hon. member's question, of which he gave me notice, and with your permission, Mr. Speaker, I shall read it.
I am glad to be able to give the assurance asked for by the hon. member without qualification or reservation of any kind. As a matter of fact, that assurance has already been given in writing to a number of Indians

Inquiries of the Ministry who have written in to inquire about the matter. I should like to state for the record, so there will be no possibility of misunderstanding on the point, that the rights of Indians under treaty and the rights of Indians not under treaty are not in any way diminished or affected by the legislation passed in 1960, which conferred on persons of Indian status the right to vote in federal elections. The legislation in question takes nothing at all away from the Indians; instead, it confers an additional right or benefit, the right to vote in exactly the same way as any other citizen of Canada.
I shall be glad to provide a written assurance along these lines to any chief or band council who desires to have this official assurance; and if any hon. members wish a letter to this effect I shall gladly provide them with a letter also.



PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mrs. Jean Casselman (Grenville-Dundas):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Public Works. Would the minister tell the house how soon the west block will be completed and whether it would have been cheaper to have torn it down and rebuilt it, rather than carrying out the renovations presently under way?


Hon. D. J. Walker (Minisier of Public Works):: The west block will be completed by the end of 1963. The estimated cost of tearing down and rebuilding the structure would have been approximately $7,390,000, whereas the amount of the contract for the work presently being carried out is $5,088,000. So the present undertaking is, of course, $2,300,000 cheaper.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Lionel Chevrier: May I direct a question to the Minister of Labour and ask him if he is aware that, as announced in the morning press, some 1,200 workers are going to be laid off at the Canadair plant. Would the minister tell us what steps he proposes to take to avert these lay-offs?


Mr. Churchill:: In 1963.


An hon. Member:: Try next year.


Michael Starr: I have not seen this report. Of course I shall have to look into the situation and see what
[Mrs. Fairclough.I

the circumstances are. Certainly we shall do everything possible to alleviate any hardships which may occur.
(Translation):


Lionel Chevrier: I should like to direct a supplementary question to the Minister of Defence Production.
Could the minister inform us whether he sees some prospect of contracts for CL-44 aircraft, built by Canadair, to avoid the layoff of those 1,200 workers?


Hon. Raymond O'Hurley (Minisier of Defence Production):: Mr. Speaker, there are some possibilities of selling further CL-44 aircraft. As a matter of fact, discussions are going on in various places, more particularly in the United States and in three European countries. We hope that before too long other sales of CL-44 aircraft will be concluded, which will necessitate further construction work and prevent the lay-off of several hundred workers for some time to come. (Text):



ANNUAL HOLIDAYS FOR GOVERNMENT ANNUITIES REPRESENTATIVES

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Michael Starr: Yesterday the hon. member for Burnaby-Coquitlam stated that many people working on a commission basis now receive annual holidays with pay. He asked for an explanation why Canadian government annuities representatives are not in receipt of annual holidays with pay.
While some persons paid on a commission basis may receive an annual vacation with pay in some form, I cannot state with certainty that the practice is as widespread as the question of the hon. member would indicate. Detailed information in this matter is not available from the regular annual survey conducted by the Department of Labour. The annuities agents employed under the provisions of the Government Annuities Act are not employees and hence do not come under the Annual Vacations Act. They conduct their work on their own time and are, in effect, in business for themselves. Arrangements are made for their vacations from time to time to suit their own convenience.
(Translation):



TRANSPORT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Marcel Bourbonnais (Vaudreuil-Sou-langes):: Could the Minister of Transport tell us whether he has received any answer from the government of the province of Quebec about the Soulanges canal?



II, 1962

Léon Balcer: Not yet, Mr. Speaker.


Mr. Valade:: They are not in any rush. (Text):



BELLECHASSE CONSTITUENCY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Guy Rouleau (Dollard):: I should like to ask the Acting Minister of Justice if he is in a position to reply to the question I put to him yesterday.


Hon. W. J. Browne (Acting Minister of Justice):: I have made inquiries and I find that no report has yet been received. The investigation is still continuing.
(Translation) :



BRIDGES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Paul Léo Maurice Johnson: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Transport. Could the minister tell the house the result of the discussions that were to take place this morning between representatives of the federal and provincial governments about the abolition of the toll charges on the Jacques Cartier and Victoria bridges?


Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker, a meeting was held this morning at eleven o'clock between the representatives of the federal government, namely the vice-chairman of the national harbours board, the assistant deputy minister of the Department of Transport, and the delegate from the provincial government, namely the deputy minister of highways, and the representative from the city of Montreal, Mr. Gerry Snyder, member of the executive council. That meeting was held at eleven o'clock and I have not yet received any report about the discussions.


Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker, I forgot to say that a representative of the treasury board also attended that meeting.
(Text):



PENITENTIARIES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
David James Walker: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member- Mr. J. R. Garland (Nipissing):	Mr. Speaker-
26207-1-181
Inquiries of the Ministry


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Mr. Garland:: I wonder, Mr. Speaker, if you would see the Minister of Public Works.


Mr. Speaker:: I shall be glad to try to fulfil both intentions at once. The minister has been very patient.


David James Walker: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, for seeing me. This has been better than the 5BX exercises.
I am always anxious to answer quickly the questions asked by the hon. member for Vancouver East. In reply to the question he put to me yesterday I would point out that drawings for a camp in the Agassiz area to confine Doukhobors convicted under the Criminal Code are under way. The housing units which will provide the bulk of the accommodation are prefabricated huts obtained on loan from the Department of National Defence.
The erection of the huts and the provision of services together with a perimeter security fence, are being undertaken on a day labour basis, with materials being obtained under the local tender call system and subcontracts for specialized work, such as heating, being awarded following competitive bidding.



AIR TRANSPORT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Lionel Chevrier: May I
direct a question to the Minister of Transport and ask whether the government proposes to change the regulations relating to charter aircraft and more particularly to reimpose controls on licensing of class IVB aircraft? Perhaps I should have put the question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce. In view of the fact that I have given the minister only a short notice, he may wish to take this as notice.


Léon Balcer: I wish to thank the hon. gentleman for having given me notice of this question. In answer I wish to say that we are keeping all our regulations, both under the air transport board and in the department, under continuous review. If any changes are made they will be announced in the usual fashion in due course.



THE BUDGET


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, I trust I will not add to the sadness of the Minister of Finance if I ask him to give to

Veterans' Land Act
the members of the house, privately at any rate, those portions of his budget speech which he did not deliver last night.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, I shall be glad to furnish the hon. member for his necessary instruction and enlightenment a copy of those portions of the speech prepared for delivery last night which there was not time or opportunity to deliver.



HOUSING


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John Richard Garland: Mr. Speaker, I wonder whether the Minister of Public Works is in a position today to reply to the question I put to him yesterday.


David James Walker: No, Mr. Speaker.



VETERANS' LAND ACT


Gordon Minto Churchill: that the house go into committee to consider Bill No. C-80, to amend the Veterans' Land Act.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Martineau in the chair.
On clause 1-Persons deemed honourably discharged.


Mr. Carter:: Mr. Chairman, I have already commended the minister for bringing in this legislation. I now wish to take the opportunity of thanking him for sending the bill to the standing committee on veterans affairs. The study of the bill in committee served two useful purposes. The resolution foreshadowed a great many changes in the legislation. The examination of the bill in committee gave us an opportunity to realize that these changes were more far reaching and, in some cases, more beneficial than would appear from a reading of the measure.
The second purpose served by the study of the bill in committee was to refresh once again our memories as to the excellent work that is being done by the Veterans' Land Act administration. Those who come from provinces where there are only a few veterans taking advantage of this legislation do not have much opportunity of finding out exactly what work is being done. It was beneficial for me and I am sure for all hon. members of the committee to have the officials before us 
and to have explained certain phases of the splendid work the Veterans' Land Act administration is doing.
This bill received an exhaustive study in the committee. Officials of the administration who were present, explained every clause and answered every question very painstakingly and in great detail. I think practically all the questions that could be asked were asked in the committee and the answers were recorded in the committee report which has now been available to members of the committee for several days. Therefore I do not think it should be necessary to take a great deal of the time of this committee going over that ground again.
I shall conclude these few brief remarks by saying I presume this bill will receive fairly swift passage through committee of the whole.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Chairman, I shall make a few brief remarks before we start to deal with the various clauses of the bill. As the previous speaker said, the measure was sent to the standing committee on veterans affairs which gave it a good review and examination. The director and the officials of the Veterans' Land Act administration gave excellent explanations and answers to any questions asked by hon. members of the committee. It was a highly satisfactory committee meeting.
I wish to take this opportunity of paying a tribute to Brigadier Rutherford who, according to an announcement made by the Minister of Agriculture on April 6, resigned from the Farm Credit Corporation a few days ago. I mention his name this afternoon because he was responsible for the development of certain policies with respect to the Veterans' Land Act administration.
All large organizations or companies and even the civil service develop some apple polishers and some Charlie McCarthy's, but Brigadier Rutherford was not of that type. He was a man of ideas and purpose, a forceful personality who left his mark on the administration. I see that the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Veterans Affairs is commenting on my remarks to the officials before him.


Mr. Jones:: Mr. Chairman, may I say I am taking no objection whatever to the remarks of the hon. member for Kootenay West; in fact, I welcome them.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: 
Miss LaMarsh:: I think this is the first opportunity I have taken in the House of Commons to speak with respect to any of the veterans legislation. The point I wish to raise for the consideration of the minister and his department is the extension of the benefits of this legislation and of the other legislation which, as has been so often said, was put on the books in Canada by a country grateful to those who had served her. Everyone in the committee realizes that this was a part of Canada's desire to show those who had risked life and limb or who were willing to risk life and limb that the country was grateful for those efforts. It has, however, in the years since the original passage of the veterans legislation and the other similar legislation, overlooked a not very large but rather important group of men. These men

Veterans' Land Act
have formed an association among themselves. They call themselves the corps of civilian firefighters. These were the men who at the request of the Canadian government under General LaFleche formed themselves into a group and went to Britain offering their services both for the United Kingdom and for the continent. They were in fact never taken to the continent but they saw service during the worst part of the buzz bombing in Great Britain. These people volunteered to go to the United Kingdom and to aid in the defence of Britain and also volunteered in the spring of 1944 to go anywhere on any battlefield to assist the liberation armies.
Their purpose, of course, was not to carry on in the normal sense. Their arms were firehose and equipment of that kind which were to protect the mother country and the United Kingdom. The fact that they performed these services well has often been mentioned. They were credited in great part for the saving of not only property but life in the United Kingdom. I think the committee should recall that people of this kind, although in the title described as civilian, were not really civilians. They offered their lives, their limbs and their health. Their term of duty was for the war's duration and they were required to wear uniforms just as were the armed forces. They had comparable ranks and pay and the same allowances for their wives and families. They received the same treatment in respect of medical examination and1 medical care, pensions, discipline, clothing, feeding, training, right down to such small items as carrying a Canadian army card with their photographs and fingerprints. They received similar discharge certificates on their discharge. Three of these men actually died on active service while they were in the United Kingdom. As to those who remained at the end of the war, who had been advised by General LaFleche when they first enlisted, it was expected that they would be treated the same as other Canadians who had been repatriated following their service. In fact they have not been classed as individuals who had served on active service and thus have had none of the benefits in any way in the public service or the benefits of the other legislation which was passed for veterans.
They have sought repeatedly in representations to the committee-I have reference to the veterans committee of this house-some consideration with respect to a number of matters and have been granted a great many of these. They were finally, after their own representations were heard, granted the $100 clothing allowance. They were given free travel home. There was compulsory re-employment. If they were hurt in the corps while

overseas they were granted pensions. They were also given hospital treatment for any injury sustained while they were overseas. They received rehabilitation grants. They were able to participate in veterans insurance if they had been overseas. If they chose, they might receive vocational training. They received $15 allowance for every 30 days spent overseas. Later they received unemployment insurance generally, but they did not receive the benefits with respect to the Veterans' Land Act. Since the passage of this act this class of veterans, civilian although they may have been in name, have been permitted access to the provisions of the Veterans' Land Act only if they were pensioners. However, to the great majority of them the benefits of this act have not been extended. They have requested and still seek from the minister and from the department full recognition as veterans. They have asked for a number of things and one of the things for which they have asked is to be entitled to re-establish themselves as veterans under the provisions of the Veterans' Land Act.
I had the opportunity, Mr. Chairman, of raising this matter very briefly in the veterans affairs committee with a representative of the department. He admitted that this matter has been raised many times. He declined, however, to say what discussions might have been held with the minister, other than the fact that he had made recommendations to the minister in respect of this group. I could not allow the discussion of the general principle of the bill under clause 1 to pass without having attempted to raise my voice and add it to the voices of those who were concerned about these people who may easily be forgotten as the years pass by, since the last hostilities. Certainly, many people in the United Kingdom, who were the front line of our forces for a long time, believe that these qualified, trained men who fought fires and kept their homes and their factories in existence, and who helped to keep the status quo, were in fact front line soldiers. I wish, Mr. Chairman, once again to appeal to the minister to consider the acceptance of this class as a class of veterans entitled to consideration under the Veterans' Land Act as amended.


Mr. Peters:: I should like, very briefly, to endorse the remarks made by the hon. member for Niagara Falls and add my voice to hers in support of the admittance of these veterans, the Canadian corps of firefighters, to the benefits of the Veterans' Land Act. Over the years we have all heard representations from the corps, particularly as a result of our personal experience in the last four

years, and we are pleased that the government has given certain recognition to the corps which had been previously denied. The final extension of the rights of these veterans, and certainly they should be classed as such, should be to make the Veterans' Land Act applicable to them.
If these men are in a position to be in receipt of war veterans allowance or war veterans pensions, then they are entitled to the benefits of the Veterans' Land Act. I believe that those who are not in receipt of pensions also should be in a position to take advantage of the Veterans' Land Act.
Now, Mr. Chairman, many hon. members will be very surprised to know the number of these veterans who served in this particular corps. At a recent zone meeting of the Canadian Legion in my area I mentioned the fact that the C.C.F. and New Democratic party had supported this idea over the years, but that we had not done this on the basis that it affected anybody particularly in that area. We had done so on the basis of its being a good thing. I was surprised to be told that in the zone of the Canadian Legion covering the riding of Timiskaming there were 15 or 20 veterans who had served in the Canadian corps of firefighters. I was told there was also a number of members of the Canadian corps of firefighters from the zone representing northern Ontario who had not come back and who had paid the supreme sacrifice for the service they rendered.
I believe the minister would not find the house unsympathetic if he were to suggest now that this further amendment will be implemented, to allow the Canadian corps of firefighter veterans the privileges of the Veterans' Land Act. In passing, I should like to endorse the comments of my leader in tribute to Brigadier Rutherford. I believe that the Canadian public have in the Veterans' Land Act, as a result of the services Brigadier Rutherford rendered the country, a better credit arrangement for all rural agriculture than would have been possible without the experience and leadership of a man like Brigadier Rutherford. It has always been questionable whether or not governments, in giving credit, should supervise that credit. There has been resentment on the part of agriculturists, who are first and foremost individualists, at submitting to any type of credit supervision. I think the pioneer work done by Brigadier Rutherford, and the conscientious method he used in making the credit facilities of the Veterans' Land Act fully understood by those taking advantage of them, went a long way towards making the Veterans' Land Act and the Canadian Farm Loan Act acceptable to these people. I hope the government will retain the services
Veterans' Land Act
of Brigadier Rutherford for consultation on legislation of this nature. The ideas that he still has would deserve consideration and would be advantageous if implemented. I strongly urge that the government continue to use the services of Brigadier Rutherford in an advisory capacity if in no other way.


Mr. Montgomery:: Mr. Chairman, I do not intend to take up much time or repeat the things that have been said by other hon. members who have spoken. However, I should like to join with them in the compliments they have paid to the officials of the Veterans' Land Act and of the veterans department generally. I think that the amendments contained in this bill are very important. As the hon. member for Burin-Burgeo said, the farther we went into the amendments, into the clauses, and as explanations were given, the greater the benefits we discovered in them.
It was not possible, as we were told, for all veterans to be re-established at the same time, that is shortly after the war. There were various reasons for this, one of which was that the costs at that time seemed high. However, as time has gone by costs have risen. This is the reason, as I understand it, the recommendation has come forward and been accepted, to permit all veterans to be re-established if they wish to be.
I suppose that we should not pay too much attention to current rumours, but as chairman of the veterans committee I should like to take this opportunity of thanking all the members of the committee. I do this now in case there is nothing else referred to the committee. I wish to thank the members for their co-operation during this session and in the discussion of this bill. Every member of the committee was exceptionally co-operative. We worked under difficulties at times, but I should like all members to know that I greatly appreciated the co-operation they gave.
I should like also to add to the compliments paid to the area superintendent of the maritimes, who happens to be a friend of mine. A lot of good things have been said about Brigadier Rutherford, the head of the board. I do not want to take anything away from Brigadier Rutherford but I believe he was fortunate in having a lot of good officials associated with him, men who had experience in connection with soldier settlement and the purchase of lands. One of the most outstanding of these is Mr. Scott and I could not let this occasion pass without paying a compliment to my old friend, Charles Scott, for the good work he has done and the guidance he has given in the maritimes.

Veterans' Land Act
I am sure that were one to travel across the country from province to province and district to district he would discover that a lot of good men had something to do with the administration of this act. As a matter of fact it is interesting, and I do not think it would be out of place for me to mention, that we have an hon. member of the House of Commons, Mr. Rogers, the hon. member for Red Deer, who formerly had a lot to do with the administration of this act. Members of the house who have not been members of the veterans affairs committee may not realize what a great help he has been to that committee during the last four years in explaining lots of little things that we sometimes did not inquire about when the officials appeared before that committee.
The director and officials who appeared before the committee on this occasion certainly gave us explanations that seemed to satisfy everybody. I do not want to hold up passage of the bill, but there was one statement made by the hon. member for Niagara Falls which I did not get clearly. I rose to ask her a question but she did not notice me. I wonder has she read the evidence given before the veterans affairs committee some three years ago concerning the firefighters? As I understand it, she said that these gentlemen volunteered to fight anywhere in Europe.


Julia Verlyn (Judy) LaMarsh: Fight fires.


Gage Workman Montgomery: I am glad the hon.
member has straightened that out because these men did not volunteer to fight with the armed forces in Europe. According to the evidence we got they decided to take another course.
One of the things which they particularly asked for when they appeared before the committee was granting of the right to wear a service ribbon, but the granting of this right did not come within the power of that committee. That is something which has to be decided somewhere else. We cannot grant them that, even though it was the main thing they sought. I understand the great majority of these men are now members of fire brigades and they would appreciate wearing that ribbon. I have nothing to say against their being given that right but, as I say, it is beyond the power of the veterans affairs committee to do so.


Chesley William Carter: I just want to reciprocate the kindly sentiments expressed by the hon. member for Victoria-Carleton and to pay tribute to him for his work as chairman of the veterans affairs committee. He has referred to rumours, but there have been other rumours which indicate the hon. member may 
not be with us at future sessions. Therefore I would not want this opportunity to pass without paying tribute to the fair and impartial way in which he has presided over that committee. It has been a real privilege for me to serve under him, and I know when I say that I am also expressing the sentiments of all other members of the committee.
I should also like to join with him in his tribute to Mr. Charles Scott, whom I have had the pleasure of knowing for a great many years. I associate myself with the hon. member's remarks in paying tribute to his interest in veterans and the good work he is doing for them in the maritimes.


Henry Frank Jones: I should like to thank the hon. member for Burin-Burgeo on behalf of all other members in the committee for his very gracious tribute to the hon. member for Victoria-Carleton. It was a tribute well deserved and one in which we join with great enthusiasm. Our work together in the veterans affairs committee has been happy work.
Discussions on this bill in the veterans affairs committee were very detailed. I think we would all agree with the hon. member for Burin-Burgeo and the hon. member for Kootenay West, who said that very extensive consideration was given to each clause in the bill. Therefore perhaps it will not be necessary for us to labour too long here today as the points have already been covered.
I should also like to commend the remarks of the hon. member for Kootenay West who paid tribute to the work of Brigadier Rutherford, who did a fine job in the administration of the Veterans' Land Act. He also did a fine job in the Farm Credit Corporation. I have known him for many years and worked with him. As a matter of fact, before becoming a member of parliament I was one of those who produced papers urging the type of credit arrangement which has since been made by the Farm Credit Corporation and is now in effect.
The general supervision which has been provided for veterans under the Veterans' Land Act has proven to be most welcome and has been most helpful in getting the veterans concerned re-established. Although supervision under the Farm Credit Corporation is compulsory only with respect to certain loans, nevertheless those who desire to have the augmented loans, and hence must accept the supervision, have experienced with satisfaction the assistance of the experienced personnel who have been recruited to that organization, many of whom worked in the administration of the Veterans' Land Act. They have performed a real service to the country under the V.L.A. and they are now performing a real service to the country in

the Farm Credit Corporation. We are all indebted to them for the job they are doing and for the leadership they are giving to veterans.
This help which they give means a lot to those faced with the operation of farms in this very different world of 1962, where such great technological changes have taken place during the last 15 years and where there has been a great increase in the cost of land and machinery. These factors have made decisions in respect to the operation of farms more critical than ever before.
I should like to conclude by saying that the views expressed by hon. members today will continue to be given consideration, as was the case in the past, and I thank all hon. members of the committee for the attention they have given to this bill, both here and in the committee on veterans affairs. Finally, I commend again the hon. member for Victoria-Carleton on the very fine job of work he has done over the years in the veterans affairs committee.


Mr. Maiheson:: I should like to ask the parliamentary assistant a question, and I hope I may do so in no contentious way. I might preface my question by saying that for a number of years since 1949 it has been my experience to process a good many Veterans' Land Act loans and to see the work done under this act at the very lowest echelon among the people of the area in which I reside. Many hundreds of these loans have been made, and while there was always a little complaining that it took time, there was ultimately great satisfaction in these people who had never before owned land and had started out in a proprietorial way in life by learning what it was to meet their obligations with the assistance of V.L.A. When we look at the history of the Veterans' Land Act and what it has done in, say the years 1948 to 1958, we know how beneficial this measure has been. I have in my hand the report "A decade of in-service staff training, 1948-58; the story of 'Operation good earth'," compiled by Mr. S. O. Robinson of the V.L.A. staff training program.
Am I not being fair in concluding that perhaps V.L.A. is moving in the opposite direction to A.R.D.A.? Perhaps this is necessary; perhaps there may be advantages in responsible young men coming out of the services and going on to what appear to be essentially marginal farmlands of perhaps 100 to 300 acres, with a valuation of something like $10,000 or perhaps up to $20,000. I ask the parliamentary secretary, is there really any close co-ordination between the work of this very important department, so important to our veterans and so beneficial to them, and
Canada Grain Act
the over-all plans that would appear to have been enunciated by the Minister of Agriculture with regard to the A.R.D.A. program?


Henry Frank Jones: I thank the hon. member for his question. The Veterans' Land Act will not work against A.R.D.A. Far from it; it will complement, help to support or be one of the components of the general over-all picture of the A.R.D.A. program. The A.R.D.A. program, as the hon. member knows-I do not want to go into a great deal of detail in regard to that matter on this occasion, as I would be out of order-is agricultural rehabilitation and development. Under that act projects which contribute to that end can be organized with the assistance of the provinces and the communities concerned. They use all the facilities at their disposal for rehabilitating areas and people from those areas. Involved in that program is not only farming, in the sense that we know it, but reforestation, pasturage, conservation matters, tourism, and so on. The Veterans' Land Act program would be a useful tool in the total A.R.D.A. concept.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Chairman, I would just like to take the opportunity of joining with those who earlier paid tribute to Brigadier Rutherford. I do so not only because I became familiar with his very excellent work in V.L.A. several years ago and continued to follow it with a great deal of interest over the years, and have also been aware of his work with the Farm Credit Corporation; but in addition to that I have had a much closer association with him than perhaps other hon. members here today because I was an officer in his brigade in Canada and over in England for some considerable time. If this were the time for reminiscing I could tell some stories about Brigadier Rutherford in which the committee might be interested. But as a brigadier, as a soldier, as a director of the Veterans' Land Act and subsequently the Farm Credit Corporation, Brigadier Rutherford has given very distinguished service to his country and I for one would like to thank him for what he has done.
Clause 1 agreed to.
Clauses 2 to 15 inclusive agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
Title agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.


Gordon Minto Churchill: the second reading of Bill No. S-19, to amend the Canada Grain Act.

Canada Grain Act
He said: Mr. Speaker, in bringing this bill before the house I think a short statement would be desirable. There are three things designed in the bill; giving statutory effect to the transfer of responsibility for the board of grain commissioners to the Minister of Agriculture; second, establishing statutory grades for mustard seed; and third, redefining the statutory grades for rapeseed.
The production of rapeseed and domestic mustard seed in western Canada has become so well established and has achieved such success in recent years that it is considered advisable to establish a comprehensive range of statutory grades for each of these seeds. A range of grades that are properly related to the commercial requirements of the users will facilitate the handling of and trading in these products, to the greater benefit of the producers and the trade at large.
Commercial grades, as provided for in the Canada Grain Act, are established by the grain standards committee and may be changed by the committee at any time. Conversely, statutory grades are not subject to change, except by act of parliament. It is through the constancy of our statutory definitions that the international status of our grades is so high, coupled with the reputation for our grading system. As the board of grain commissioners has had several years of experience in the handling of mustard seed and rapeseed, a full range of permanent grades for these oilseeds may now be established and given the status of statutory grades.
As regards mustard seed, at the present time only commercial grades have been established; this is, there are no statutory grades. These commercial grades have been in effect since 1947 without any revisions. Through experience it has been found that these grades could work to the detriment of the Canadian producers, by comparison with mustard seed grading standards used by producers elsewhere.
In revising the definitions of grades it is considered appropriate to introduce statutory definitions, thus giving to this seed the acceptance and recognition afforded in world markets to other Canadian grains for which statutory grades have been established and which are now well known and trusted.
In the case of domestic mustard seed, the committee on western grain standards established a complete range of commercial grades, from extra No. 1 to No. 3 Canada western, plus a sample grade and a grade to include mixed classes of mustard seed. The committee did this in 1947, and has continued to re-establish these grades each year since then. There is no reason to doubt that domestic mustard seed will continue to be

produced in western Canada, so it follows naturally that grades should be established permanently, by statute.
In the case of rapeseed, the present statutory grades are Canada rapeseed and sample Canada rapeseed. That is, there is no No. 1 grade. It is felt that the stature of the product would be improved by the establishment of a No. 1 grade. Commercial grades known as No. 2 grade and No. 3 grade rapeseed have been in effect since 1957 when a committee was established to make recommendations with regard to this question. The amendment would establish three statutory grades clearly defined so that the buyer would know what he is getting and the producer would be paid accordingly.
I think the bill itself indicates, in the schedules, the alterations which I have outlined with regard to these two oilseeds.
(Translation):


Mr. Samuel Boulanger (Drummond-Arthabaska):: Mr. Speaker, I think it is only fair to congratulate the government for transferring the Board of Grain Commissioners for Canada to the Department of Agriculture, since it concerns the Minister of Agriculture rather than the Minister of Trade and Commerce.
In the second paragraph of the explanatory notes of this bill we read the following:
The purpose of this amendment is to establish statutory grades of domestic mustard seed.
In section 2 of the bill, we read the following:
Schedule one to the said act is amended by adding thereto, immediately before the heading "Rapeseed".
I would ask the minister how it is that in the explanatory notes reference is made to "mustard seed", while in section 2 of the bill reference is made to "rapeseed". Is it a case of misinterpretation or is it because "mustard seed" and "rapeseed" are one and the same thing?
(Text):


Gordon Minto Churchill: If the hon. member would raise that question during the committee stage, perhaps we shall have the answer.
(Translation):


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: I think the hon. member would do well to wait until the committee considers the bill in detail to put his question.


Samuel Boulanger: Mr. Speaker, it is indispensable that we know exactly the definition of each term. In my opinion we should know what we are talking about before considering the bill in committee.

(Text):


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: There is, I believe, a point of order which arises here. If the minister speaks he will close the debate. He may-wish to defer his answer until the other speakers have been heard, or the matter can be discussed in committee.
(Translation):


Samuel Boulanger: Mr. Speaker, it is important we should know the exact meaning of each term in the bill.
If we refer to the bill, we note that in the explanatory notes reference is made to "mustard seed", while in section 2 of the bill reference is made to "rapeseed".
I do not know whether "rapeseed" means "mustard seed", and I should like to know what is the difference between the two.
(Text):


Gordon Minto Churchill: I am not closing the debate-just answering a question. I did suggest that it would be more appropriate to ask this question during the committee stage, but the hon. member persists in raising it on second reading. If he would look at the act as it now stands and read the amendment as it is given here, I think he would understand what is intended. We end up in clause 3 by striking out the heading "rapeseed" and substituting two schedules, schedule A dealing with domestic mustard seed and schedule B dealing with rapeseed. So the situation is perfectly clear.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Clear as mud.


Mr. Reynold Rapp (Humboldt-Melforl-Tisdale):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to be the last man to delay the passing of this bill, because as early as 1960 I was trying to get a similar bill through the house. Only on January 22 a similar bill of mine received second reading here, but since the hour for voting expired at six o'clock it never came to a vote.


William Arnold Peters: It was a lot better bill, too. It made more sense.


Reynold Rapp: This bill was one of the three rapeseed bills I have introduced to the house since I came down here in 1958 and it is also the third bill which the government and the House of Commons have approved. The bill before us this afternoon is an important one because its purpose is to revise the statutory grades of mustard seed and rapeseed. It is in conformity with the suggestions of the board of grain commissioners and also in conformity with the recommendations of the chief grain inspector of that board. As I said at that time, Canada is well known in the world for its high quality of grain, and having this bill will keep the grades of rapeseed pure and clean. We 26207-1-182
Canada Grain Act
shall now have these grains for which, in due time, Canada will gain an enviable reputation abroad. I am pleased that this bill has received the approval of the other members of the house and it is my hope that the approval of parliament will speedily be given to it.


William Arnold Peters: Mr. Speaker, I believe the government would have been well advised to accept the bill introduced by the hon. member for Humboldt-Melfort-Tisdale which would have accomplished in a clearer way what the government seeks to accomplish by this bill. It may be a case of a private member having more time to work on it and a better understanding of what is required than the government has in its position.
In examining the schedule I am wondering if any consideration had been given to the fact that, although rapeseed has been highly developed both in western and eastern Canada, mustard seed in eastern Canada is considered a noxious weed difficult to eradicate. Where mustard seed is grown on a commercial basis, what will be done to protect those areas where it is designated as a weed, one difficult to control?
In the explanatory notes to the bill I see no requirement to take out seeds similar to mustard seed. These may be part of the screenings we are handling in eastern Canada. This may be an important factor in eastern Canada with respect to poultry feed.
A few weeks ago in this house we had discussions concerning the fact that rapeseed and mustard seed could not be brought under the terms of the wheat board for sale purposes because these classifications are not contained in the Canada Grain Act. Will these commodities now be brought under the terms of the Canadian wheat board for sale and export?


Gordon Minto Churchill: The answer to that is that this is for grading purposes under the board of grain commissioners.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, it remains to make but a few observations on this bill, because when a similar bill was brought in on other occasions by the hon. member for Humboldt-Melfort-Tisdale I said I felt the proposal should be supported on its merits. As the hon. gentleman has previously attested, he received support for his proposal from hon. members of the Liberal party.
It will be recalled when the matter was last before us under that hon. gentleman's auspices we urged the government then to accept the responsibility which it is now belatedly assuming. The government has finally brought forward a bill, not on its own initiative but as a result of the prodding from

Canada Grain Act
members of the Liberal party who urged the government to put in statutory form what had been recommended by one of its own supporters, and which was actually embodied in one of the measures before us.
The Acting Minister of Justice (Mr. Browne) seems to be displeased by that statement, but that is the fact. If he will look at Hansard he will find that it is the case, as will be attested to by the hon. member for Humboldt-Melfort-Tisdale.
We pointed out on earlier occasions that the board of grain commissioners had investigated the situation and had recommended what is now before the house. We said that in those circumstances the government could not escape responsibility of either accepting or rejecting those recommendations. In the former case it would be clear, we said, that the government should bring in legislation rather than leave the responsibility to a private member.
The government now comes forward with a bill which was introduced in the Senate on March 28. This bill comes as a result, first of all, of the example set by a private member of the government party, and particularly as a result of the prodding given the government by the Liberal party in urging hon. gentlemen opposite to take an initiative which they should have taken in the first instance.
When the bill was discussed on one other occasion some hon. members supporting the minister took the position that it was undesirable to add mustard seed to the wheat board bill. Certainly that should not be done, it was argued, until such time as the schedule to the grain act had been modified in accordance with what is being done today. We now have the situation that mustard seed is being put in the Canada Grain Act as well as in the Canadian Wheat Board Act where it was put some few weeks ago. It seems to me that those hon. gentlemen who took that position previously did a disservice to the mustard seed growers of Canada as a result of the attitude they adopted.
I have risen primarily at this moment for the purpose of reminding the government of something that has grieved the Acting Minister of Justice. I have risen to say that the government is now doing what the opposition urged it should do and what the hon. member for Humboldt-Melfort-Tisdale took the initiative in doing. The action of the government in deciding to have the board of grain commissioners look into the matter, and the board having made its recommendation, placed an obligation on the shoulders of the government to itself bring in this legislation, and it has done so, belatedly.
[Mr. Martin (Essex East) .1


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Martineau in the chair.
Clause 1 agreed to.
On clause 2.
William Arnold Peters: Mr. Chairman, will the minister explain why reference is made to mustard seed in the explanation of the bill and to rapeseed in the bill itself?


Gordon Minto Churchill: Yes, Mr. Chairman. I can explain that. I have in my hand volume 1 of the 1952 statutes. Schedule 1 begins on page 61 and runs over to page 74. It is amended on page 74 by adding the heading and grade requirements set forth in schedule A to this bill. This means that in advance of the reference to rapeseed and the schedule now appearing on page 74 would come reference to domestic mustard seed, schedule A, and that would be followed by schedule B which relates to rapeseed.
I grant that it is a little confusing as paragraphs 2 and 3 presently read, but what it amounts to is striking out rapeseed on the small schedule that is there now and inserting the new schedules A and B relating to mustard seed and rapeseed.


[Stage Direction]
Clause agreed to.
On clause 3.
William Arnold Peters: Is any consideration being given to this problem of the difference in the maintaining of the planting of this grain and of the seed, particularly mustard seed, and the effect it will have in some parts of Canada? With the designation of mustard as a weed, the conflict will be apparent. Is there protection taken where this conflict arises? In other words, the screenings being brought into certain areas will contain a certain amount of mustard seed which will be domestic, whether it is one of the classifications of oriental, Canada western, Canada western yellow or one of the other designations. In other words, certain types of seeds to which we refer are domesticated, or I presume they are domesticated. Is this control also to be over the other ones that are not domesticated? Is any protection given, or is any consideration being given, to the situation in which there could be a conflict between the wild varieties and the domesticated varieties?


Gordon Minto Churchill: This has been going on for some time. I refer to the production of mustard seed. I have the figures here for 1957 and up to 1962. Any conflict that may appear in the mind of the hon. member now must have arisen in the past. I would consider that the board of grain commissioners would use their customary discretion and caution in seeing that the mustard seed which is delivered to them or which might come into

their possession for sampling would be carefully looked after and not dispersed. The mustard seed which goes into commercial use would be treated in the same way as are other seeds which go into commercial use. I grant that in some areas of Canada mustard is a noxious weed and that people are much more concerned with getting rid of it than with increasing the production of it. The number of acres seeded to mustard in 1961-62 is 142,000 acres. It is not a very large number of acres when you consider the millions of acres that are seeded to wheat, oats and barley.


William Arnold Peters: I was just inquiring. There must be a section of the Canada Grain Act, as it is a national act, which gives consideration to the provincial weed laws and the interprovincial movement of grain and which obviously would not be in the section we are discussing at the present time. I was concerned only with the conflict that may arise because of the fact that this is probably the first really commercialized product which could be classified as Canadian grown and which would have this particular feature. Others that may be put in eventually would be such things as poppy seed or something of that nature that may have a similar application. There may be provisions already that would not be contrary to or in conflict with provincial restrictions of movement. By putting this matter under the Canada Grain Act we may upset that. I am not asking the minister to give a decision on it now. I would trust that this matter be given consideration. It may be that a regulation would be satisfactory prohibiting the text of the Canada Grain Act, which we want, from working an undue hardship on some of the provinces that are trying to control this weed in its wild state.


Reynold Rapp: In order to help the hon. member for Timiskaming, may I say that the schedule here deals with tame mustard. If he wishes to come over here I could show him samples of it. What he is worried about is wild mustard. Wild mustard is classified as a weed in the Canada Grain Act. But in schedule A domestic mustard means tame mustard.


Paul Joseph James Martin: You had better send those samples over to the hon. member.


William Arnold Peters: My point here is that tame mustard will be as bad a weed in eastern Canada as is wild mustard if it is growing in places in which you do not want it to grow. It will not make any difference what the grade happens to be. I believe the minister understands the problem to which I have reference. It is only with regard to protection where it 26207-1-182J
Health Insurance
would interfere with provincial weed control in certain areas where this matter has been a problem.


[Stage Direction]
Clause agreed to.
Clause 4 agreed to.
Schedule A agreed to.
Schedule B agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported.
Mr. Speaker:: When shall the said bill be read a third time? By leave, now?


Some hon. Members:: Now.


Mr. Speaker:: By unanimous consent, Mr. Churchill, seconded by Mr. Nowlan, moves-


Paul Joseph James Martin: No.


Gordon Minto Churchill: There is no amendment.


Paul Joseph James Martin: No.


Mr. Speaker:: Next sitting of the house?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Next sitting of the house.


Mr. Speaker:: Next sitting of the house.
It being five o'clock the house will now proceed to the consideration of private members' business as listed on today's order paper, namely notices of motions and public bills.



HEALTH INSURANCE


Mr. M. W. Martin (Timmins) moved:: That in the opinion of this house, the government should give consideration to the advisability of introducing a comprehensive system of national health insurance, more particularly to give consideration to the advisability of: (a) amending the Hospital Insurance and Diagnostic Services Act to provide benefits on behalf of patients in tuberculosis sanitaria and patients confined to mental institutions: (b) introducing legislation to provide medical, dental and optical insurance.
He said: Mr. Speaker, I am highly pleased once more to have the opportunity of bringing this matter before the House of Commons. Either I or other members of my party over the years have consistently raised this matter year after year. It is pleasing that, as a result, at least to some extent, of the continual pressure that has been brought to bear by the party to which I belong, we now find that more and more across the country the public are becoming aware of this problem and of the necessity of embarking on some sort of scheme such as that suggested in this resolution.
If we follow this subject in our newspapers we also find that the urgency is increasing as well. The resolution deals with the bringing of tuberculosis patients under the Hospital Insurance and Diagnostic Services Act. We

Health Insurance
find that tuberculosis incidence in this country is not only on the increase as far as actual cases are concerned but that, in addition, tuberculosis germs seem to be developing a resistance to the drugs in current use. There is a need for greater research in this field if we do not wish to find that we are slipping in our control of the dread disease tuberculosis in this country. It also contains the idea of bringing mental patients within the confines of our hospital insurance act. It is probably not necessary but I think it might be worth while to remind the house once more that our hospital insurance act is only 50 per cent an act, because 50 per cent of the hospital beds in this country are still taken up by mental patients who do not come under the provisions of this act. This is one of the things this government has failed or neglected to do, in spite of what they said when they were members of the opposition some five years ago.
At the moment, we have a royal commission which is sitting and hearing briefs presented by the various interested groups. It is rather interesting, Mr. Speaker, to check the score in connection with this matter and ascertain who is supporting the idea of national health insurance and who is opposed to it. For example, amongst the people who are supporting this idea we find the 85,000 members of the civil service federation; the 400,000 members of the Canadian Federation of Agriculture, and the one and a quarter million members of the Canadian Labour Congress. These three organizations alone represent a total of approximately 1,735,000 people. So far as I am aware at the moment, and I have followed this matter very closely, we find on the opposition side the 150,000 businessmen in the Canadian Chamber of Commerce; the Metropolitan Life Insurance Company and the Great West Life Insurance Company-possibly they were speaking for other insurance companies, I do not know. I did read excerpts from the brief they presented to this commission. We can add to this number, certainly, the majority of the doctors represented by their organizations across the country, although not all. There is some controversy so far as the doctors themselves are concerned, and some of them favour the idea while others do not.
In the limited time at our disposal, Mr. Speaker, I should like to deal with some of the reasons for embarking upon this suggested program. I will not speak too long because I am sure there are other interested members who would like to say something on this very important subject. Many of these reasons have been repeated many times in this house, so I do not believe there is any necessity for going into them again. They are a matter of

record and have been set forth on more than one occasion. From time to time, however, new evidence is presented and I think this should be added to what is already on the record.
For example, I have here an article from the Windsor Star of March 19, 1962, which is entitled, "Health Good; Costs High, Almost Everyone Sad." This article reads in part:
Everyone is unhappy with the nationalized British health service-except, perhaps the patients.
The doctors, the nurses and the druggists are unhappy.
The drug companies are unhappy-the health
service has taken a lot of old remedies off its lists as less effective than other medicines.
The dentists and the opticians are unhappy because they complain they are not making enough money-
But a spokesman for the ministry of health emphasized today that despite the tribulations of the scheme, most of them due to the government policy of refusing pay increases, the state of the nation's health was never better.
When the health plan was introduced in 1948 the British death rate was 12.8 per thousand. In 1960, the last year for which statistics are available, it was 11.6 per thousand, an improvement of nearly ten per cent.
I should like also to put on the record a few remarks made by Kenneth O. Bardwell, federal government electronics engineer. This gentleman was the only individual who presented a brief to the royal commission looking into health insurance. According to this report, he spent approximately six months in preparing this brief. I quote from the article:
As a Canadian-"I flinch each time some foreign news medium carries a deservedly disparaging article on suffering brought about by medical costs to uninsured or under-insured Canadians."
As the husband of a multiple sclerosis sufferer- "I have spent months of evenings at a local hospital and have met many people whose worst problem is not their illness but the cost of it."
He goes on to criticize the doctors, and he said:
Their spokesmen tell us no Canadian suffers through inability to pay... that there is something essential about our right to be unable to pay the doctor or druggist.
Then, the article goes on:
He attacked voluntary health agencies. Many of them are self-perpetuating and can be relied upon to oppose any national plan, he said. Often they duplicate resources but will not allow their facilities to be used by a person suffering from another disease.
As I have said, Mr. Speaker, these are the views expressed by people who favour the implementation of a national health insurance plan. Now, in order to be fair, I should like to refer to some of the reasons advanced by persons who are opposed to this plan. We have the submission of the Canadian Chamber of Commerce which states that socialized medicine is not only undesirable but would

damage the freedom of Canadians and the already burdened Canadian economy. Then, they go on to say:
Income tax regulations should be amended to provide some measure of assistance in mitigating catastrophic illness expenses faced by normally self-supporting persons.
I wonder just how much income tax adjustment would be necessary to offset, to use their own words, the catastrophic costs of illness. In my opinion, the argument seems to be without merit whatever. We also have a reference to the representations made by the two insurance companies to which I referred earlier, the Metropolitan Life and the Great West Life. In a joint brief to the commission currently considering Canada's health needs, these two companies indicated their opposition to any government controlled national health insurance plan. Some of their reasons for their opposition are as follows:
The right to choose the proper plan from a very wide range designed to meet every type of need-or to reject them all.
Freedom to select the insurer and the method of financing.
The opportunity to reap benefits accruing from competition between insurers.
Then, they spoil their whole argument by their reply to a question asked by one of the members of the commission, and I quote the article as follows:
In reply to the commission, David E. Kilgour, president of Great West Life agreed some employers require a proportion of new employees to join schemes they operate jointly with insurance companies.
"And you call that voluntary?" asked commission member Dr. O. J. Firestone.
It seems obvious that the interest of these two companies is not the health and welfare of the public but the fact that they would like to run a very profitable business involving the nation's health. We have also complaints from doctors, and we find that most of these complaints are based more on theory than they are on actual fact. If the facts are given, they are very carefully slanted a certain way so that only one side of the picture is seen. For example, I should like to refer to a report appearing in the Globe and Mail of March 19, 1962. The headline reads, "Figures Suggest Third of Doctors Leave U.K." The article reads in part:
Figures suggesting that one third of all doctors trained in British and Irish medical schools emigrate after they have qualified have been published in the British Medical Journal.
Then, the article goes on to say:
-there are no records to show the number of medical students from overseas who come here for their training. A number undoubtedly do arrive and most of them intend, from the start, to return to practise in their homelands.
I do not know why it is said these figures could not be found because I had no difficulty
Health Insurance
in finding the figures. I found them in a matter of 20 minutes. We find, for example, that in 1961 out of 12,314 students in British medical schools 2,193 were foreign students. So, the information was not difficult to find.
In addition to that I recall that just a matter of a year or two ago I placed on record in this house the report of a royal commission which sat in Britain, which looked into this matter very completely, and into the opinions expressed by the medical profession in regard to health insurance. One of these opinions was that it would drive doctors out of that field and result in a shortage of doctors. However, the conclusion arrived at by the royal commission was that by 1961 medical schools in Britain would have to cut down by at least 10 per cent the number of students entering them in order to avoid widespread unemployment among doctors in Britain. These are not my words, they are the words of the royal commission and, as I said, I placed them on record in this house a matter of a year or two ago.
Another complaint frequently made with regard to a health insurance plan is that it would interfere with the relationship between doctor and patient. It is never explained very clearly how this would come about, but I am just suspicious enough to wonder if that is not the interference about which at least a number of members of the medical profession are concerned. For example, within the last month or two I saw a report of a case where officers of the income tax division of the Department of National Revenue told a magistrate that a certain doctor had failed to report a total of $51,891.55 from 1953 to 1960. It was stated that, over the years included in the charge, the doctor had been deliberately keeping two sets of books, one set for the auditing firm which compiled his income tax return and one for himself in which he accurately recorded his true income. Certainly such a thing could never happen, or would be much more difficult to accomplish, were a health plan implemented. Indeed I cannot help wondering if that is not one of the major fears with regard to interference.
I also wonder what kind of wonderful relationship would be built up between doctor and patient in the light of another report, which reads as follows:
About 100 Toronto doctors who have turned their new accounts over to a firm for collection will come under the scrutiny of the Ontario college of physicians and surgeons-
The doctors turn all their bookkeeping and billing over to Professional Services Associates of Wilson ave., who buy the doctors' bills at a 14 per cent discount.
P.S.A. then sends the bill on a printed note headed with "Dear patient" and signed, "Cordially,

Health Insurance
your doctor". It does not mention the fact the doctor has sold the account at a discounted rate to the agency.
As I say, I do not know what wonderful doctor-patient relationship can be built up under circumstances such as those.
I should like to give another example of something which, in my opinion, is the wrong way to build up a proper doctor-patient relationship. I quote from the Camp Borden Citizen of February 7, 1962, where there is an advertisement headed as follows: Dr. John B. Scott Dentist
Circled Pine Shopping Centre, Camp Borden, Ontario
Due to the increasingly large number-


Mr, Speaker:: I am not sure what the hon. member proposes to read, but while I did not comment on his argument which seemed to be a bit remote from the resolution involving as it did criticism of the medical profession and its accounting, I think he should not bring names of individuals into the debate on this resolution. It really has nothing to do with the medical profession in general but has to do with the establishment of public services. I may have misapprehended what the hon. member was going to do, but I am sure he will not mind my indicating my view.


Murdo William Martin: I would like to apologize for using the name. It was not my intention to use this doctor's name. The advertisement reads as follows:
Due to the increasingly large number of delinquent accounts in this office it has become necessary to enforce the following policy with regard to dental treatment. Effective immediately all dental treatment performed in the office... in Camp Borden will be on a cash basis only as treatment is rendered. This does not apply to treatment of an emergency nature which if necessary will be allowed thirty days for payment. Will those who now have dental appointments and who feel that they will be unable to comply with the above condition please phone the dental office and cancel the appointments.
Please do not ask for treatment on any other basis as this cannot any longer be considered.
I think that points to a very deplorable condition in our country today.
I see my time is just about up but I should like to close with one final complaint which is often expressed whenever one speaks of health insurance. Immediately the hue and cry is raised about the terrible expenses involved. Well, Mr. Speaker, I should like to point out to the house that when a health insurance plan is implemented it does not create very much of a new expense. It may transfer expenses, which are now paid in certain ways, to some other way, but we must keep in mind the fact that health insurance, protecting and maintaining the

health of our citizens, costs a lot of money whether it is handled privately or publicly, semi-privately or semi-publicly, or whatever manner it is handled under the myriad of plans we have at the present time.
It will still cost money but there is no additional new expense involved by handling this thing publicly, trying to do it efficiently, and trying to ensure that the health of the nation is not based on the size of one's pocketbook.


Mr. McDonald (Hamillon South):: May I
ask the hon. member a question?


Murdo William Martin: Certainly.


Mr. McDonald (Hamilton South):: In his
proposal would he maintain that the cost of this plan be taken out of general revenues or be met by contributions of the citizens of this country?


Murdo William Martin: I am glad the hon. member asked that question. I do not believe in the policy of a health insurance plan paid for completely out of the public treasury. It promotes the theory that I object to so much in our society today, the theory that you can get something for nothing. There is no such thing as something for nothing in this country and it is about time the people were told so. I believe the plan should be based on a premium that can be afforded by practically the whole of society. If that premium is not sufficient, then the balance can be taken up in various other ways; but I believe that everyone who has health insurance should pay a premium so that he realizes that what he is getting he is paying for.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of National Health and Welfare is in his seat. In view of the limitation of time, if I thought that by giving way to him we could have from him a statement of policy on this important medical care insurance proposal I would readily give way. But I would not give way unless I had been assured by the minister that he is prepared now to announce something that the government said four and a half years ago it was prepared to give the Canadian people.


Mr. Pascoe:: Twenty two years.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Can the minister
give us that assurance?


Mr. Gathers:: What kind of horse trade is that?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Somebody asked, "What kind of horse trade is that?" We are going to have an election very soon and as this is going to be one of the issues in the election it would be very interesting to have a statement of policy from the government. The

Minister of National Health and Welfare now has an opportunity to state that policy.


Jay Waldo Monteith: I would be very happy to listen to you, Paul.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, it is evident that the government has no policy with regard to this matter. All we can do, therefore, is to try and urge the government to give consideration, even at this late date, to matters about which it said it had such an intense interest over a year and a quarter ago.
In discussing this resolution introduced by the hon. member for Timmins we will perhaps want to recall the circumstances of the statement made by the Prime Minister in 1958 with regard to the kind of program the government had in connection with health insurance. It will also be interesting to recall the position taken by hon. gentlemen opposite with regard to paragraph (a) of this resolution, which calls for:
(a) amending the Hospital Insurance and Diagnostic Services Act to provide benefits on behalf of patients in tuberculosis sanitaria and patients confined to mental institutions;
With regard to the former provision, the Canadian people were led to believe that once this government came into office it would provide, in co-operation with the provinces, a system of medical care insurance. With regard to this matter no progress at all has been made by this government. A year and a quarter ago, following the national Liberal rally which was held in this city and at which was discussed a proposal in the field of medical care insurance put forward by the members attending that rally, the Prime Minister one day, anticipating that discussion, rose in this house and announced the appointment of a royal commission to inquire into the whole matter of medical care insurance. He said he was not in a position then to give the personnel of the royal commission, but the house could be assured that the government was going to appoint the members of that commission with dispatch and the study was going to take place immediately. The implication left was that action would be forthcoming from the government.
What are the facts? The royal commission personnel were not designated until March, some 4J months after the announcement of the royal commission by the Prime Minister. The chief justice of Saskatchewan was selected as chairman of the royal commission, but a long interval elapsed between his appointment and the appointment of other members of the commission. The royal commission is now on tour; it was on tour with
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many other royal commissions of this government, such as the recent Bladen commission, about which, by the way, no action was taken by the government in last night's budget.
The royal commission on health services under the direction of Chief Justice Hall has gone from one end of Canada to the other listening to representations from the Canadian Dental Association, the nurses association, and so on. But what we ought to note is that this is another device by this government to postpone consideration of something which it told the Canadian people, when it last appealed to them, it was prepared to undertake.
We will be told by the Prime Minister during the course of the coming election campaign, make no mistake about it, "We are giving consideration to this whole question of medical care insurance. Have we not appointed a royal commission? Do we not now have in existence in this country a group of men under the chairmanship of the chief justice of the province of Saskatchewan who are examining this problem?" The Prime Minister will seek to convey to the Canadian people the great interest of this government in this particular problem, when the fact is that this royal commission, like so many other devices of this government, is nothing but a technique to divert the people from recalling the promise made by this government with regard to medical care insurance, the matter that in principle is now proposed in the resolution introduced by the hon. member for Timmins.
I say that the device of the Hall commission is nothing more than the well known technique of the present Prime Minister to convey to the people of Canada something which is not in accord with the facts and is not in accord with what he told the people of Canada he and his government would do. Yet he talks about having fulfilled his promises, telling the young Conservatives last Saturday night, "We have fulfilled all our promises; did not Peter Newman say so?"


Mr. Macdonnell:: Would the hon. member permit a question? Will the Prime Minister in the course of these discussions not be able to say that this government has spent many tens of millions of dollars in redeeming promises of the previous government?


Paul Joseph James Martin: The hon. gentleman asks, "Will this government not be able to say that it has been doing a great deal in other fields?" I am not talking about other fields right now, nor has this resolution anything to do with other fields. This resolution has to do with medical care insurance and I am now dealing with a promise made to the

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Canadian people by this government. I am pointing out that this government has resorted to its well known technique of introducing a red herring, a diversionary tactic, by the appointment of a royal commission; and there is no one who should deplore that more than the hon. member for Greenwood, for whom I have the greatest respect and who I know regards a political promise as something that should be observed.
Let us examine another promise made by this government which arises out of this resolution. The Minister of National Health and Welfare will recall how the present Minister of Finance in particular urged upon the previous administration an amendment to the Hospital Insurance and Diagnostic Services Act to provide for the inclusion under the act of patients suffering from tuberculosis and mental illness.
In response to that request it was indicated that, following a conference held with the provinces it was agreed by the latter that, as the great percentage of tuberculosis and mental illness costs were borne by the provinces, and since the Hospital Insurance and Diagnostic Services Act was intended to provide assistance to individuals and not to relieve provincial governments of their accepted obligations, it was not valid to argue that these two particular illnesses should be included in the Hospital Insurance and Diagnostic Services Act. But that was what the present government urged when in opposition; they urged that mental illness and tuberculosis should be included in the act. How they can resist this resolution in the face of that stand is very difficult indeed to appreciate.


Murdo William Martin: Would the hon.
member permit a question? Can I take it from his remarks that the Liberal party is still of the opinion that they held at the time the present government was urging this change?


Paul Joseph James Martin: If my hon. friend will recall what I said about this matter two years ago he will appreciate that the situation has changed considerably.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Well, it has. Hon. gentlemen laugh, but their laughter only indicates their lack of comprehension of the facts. The financial situation between the federal government and the provinces has changed greatly. The province of Ontario has entered this field. The province of Ontario is now imposing a 25 cent contribution with regard to tuberculosis patients. The situation is altogether different. But the federal government, notwithstanding that fact, continues to take a

position which they urged earlier should have been taken by the previous administration. This government now, because of that fact and because of the promises made by the Prime Minister, again, with regard to this matter, cannot resist the inclusion of mental illness and tuberculosis in the Hospital Insurance and Diagnostic Services Act.
That is another promise which has gone unfulfilled. In spite of that, the Prime Minister went before the young Conservatives in Ottawa last Saturday and said, "Look at all the promises we have fulfilled", forgetting that here are two, among many others, which he and his government have not even touched.


An hon. Member:: He is already out making more.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Somebody says he is out making more, and I suppose that is true. What we must remember is that this subject is one which is of the greatest interest to the Canadian people. They do expect governments on a senior level to take some action with regard to medical care costs.
The Canadian people now have a hospital insurance scheme which runs across this country and which is proving its worth. They are now expecting governments at both senior levels to take action with regard to this matter. We in the Liberal party, having taken the initiative with regard to hospital insurance, having placed that act on the statute books of this country, having obtained the consent of the required number of provinces, which was a fact just before the change of government, can now say that we are prepared to embark on a further stage, in light of the fact that we have placed the Hospital Insurance and Diagnostic Services Act on the statute books.
Here again we find the Prime Minister boasting about what he and his government have done in the field of social welfare. Let it not be forgotten that the additional expenditures in that field which the Prime Minister mentioned on Saturday night included the moneys paid out of the unemployment insurance fund. It was those disbursements which caused the present social welfare expenditures to reach the level indicated by the Prime Minister. The right hon. gentleman forgot, of course, that the moneys paid into the unemployment insurance fund do not represent moneys under the control of the federal government but are moneys paid in by the employers and employees, the main contributors to the fund.
We believe the time has come when the government of Canada, in co-operation with the provinces, should provide a system of responsible medical care insurance so that no individual in this country shall go without

such care on the mere ground of financial incapacity. We have put forward in our contributory old age scheme a plan which meets part of this objective. With regard to the discussion which is particularly current in the United States, with regard to medical care for the aged, we say that not only should we provide financial assistance to the aged but we should also be making provision for the payment of their medical expenditures. Under our contributory plan, which could be put into effect under the present amendment to the British North America Act, we would provide for the medical care of the aged who are not now provided for under provincial or municipal arrangements. There are over a million people now receiving pensions from the federal government under the old age security scheme. There is also a lesser number-though it is considerable-receiving payments under the old age assistance plan, Many of these people cannot meet their medical care costs. Under the contributory plan which we have put forward, such individuals would be covered.
There is another aspect of this problem which was not touched on by the hon. gentleman, and it concerns sickness insurance which should be built into a medical care insurance plan. An individual who is out of work because his employers lack work to give him can draw unemployment insurance benefits if he is qualified to do so; but if such person loses work because of illness he cannot qualify for unemployment insurance benefits. We feel this is one aspect of the problem which should be taken care of. Indeed, I have a resolution on the order paper referring to this very matter. It is one of the reforms which will have come about and which is part of the social security program already announced by the leader of the Liberal party. Under that plan we guarantee to individuals an ability to meet the cost of medical care, as has been stated by the Leader of the Opposition in speeches which have been made during the past few weeks from one end of Canada to the other, and which will be increasingly made.
We have indicated that we recognize the importance of the doctor-patient relationship. The doctor must be free to use the form of treatment he believes in the circumstances, and the patient must be free to consult the doctor of his choice. There is no suggestion of interfering in any way with the traditional doctor-patient relationship which must prevail. We recognize the contribution which has been made by the medical profession. We recognize the contribution being made in the field of medical research. What we want to do, while preserving the integrity of the medical profession, is to bring to a
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maximum number of people in our country the opportunity of sharing in the discoveries of medical science. That is the idea behind the plan which we have put forward-a plan which would create a scheme which would attract an increasing number of able people to the practice and study of medicine.
We recognize that the plan will require machinery, that it will require administration. We recognize the position of the doctor with regard to his income. Where there is collaboration between the medical profession and the provincial and federal governments with regard to this plan, there need be no difficulty in working out some kind of program which would guarantee the security which we feel, in this day and age, individuals living in a country such as ours should have, without in any way interfering with freedoms which we recognize as part of our tradition and without in any way interfering with constitutional arrangements which we believe are implicit in the British North America Act. We feel that those who can afford to do so should pay a small part of their doctors' bills up to a low annual maximum. This, we believe, would afford the safeguard against the making of unreasonable demands for attention.
We do believe that to postpone this problem, as the government is doing, is to place the whole question in jeopardy. All the information now being gathered by the royal commission on health services is valuable, no one questions that. But all that material is now available to the government in the Department of National Health and Welfare. All the submissions being made by the labour bodies, by the federation of agriculture, by the various business organizations, the Canadian Manufacturers' Association, the chambers of commerce, the Canadian Medical Association, the dental association and similar bodies are familiar to the minister. His department has that information and it should not be difficult for him and his advisors to recommend to his colleagues the kind of program which should be put forward for acceptance by the Canadian people. The government has let four years elapse without taking any concrete steps in this field, as it failed to take any concrete steps in the field of a contributory pension scheme that would provide a basic national pension of $75 a month. We now have fifteen minutes left in which to discuss this matter. I call upon the minister to deal with this question and outline the program of the government.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member but his time has expired.

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Mr. G. C. Fairfield (Porlage-Neepawa):: Mr. Speaker, I do not wish to take up too much of the time of the house. I do not intend to advance arguments relating to anything other than that part of the motion which calls upon the government to give consideration to the advisability of introducing a comprehensive system of national health insurance.
Hon. members of the opposition must realize that there has been appointed a royal commission to carefully examine existing health services throughout the nation and to recommend in what way these services may be improved. The hon. member for Essex East has stated that this information is already available to the Minister of National Health and Welfare. Having assisted with the briefs of some of the medical associations I can tell the hon. gentleman that the information is very voluminous. This matter should not be rushed into as was done when the United Kingdom government established national health insurance, which has led to the medical crisis that presently exists there, whether or not the hon. member for Timmins agrees with that statement.
I wish to talk about the supply of doctors we could make available under any plan this government might recommend as a result of the information gleaned from the investigation of the royal commission on health services. I do not know whether hon. members realize that in Canada we have the capability of graduating about 900 doctors per year. During the past few years only 800 students have graduated yearly from medical schools. It will be understood that many of these graduates come from the United States, Jamaica and other foreign lands and of course do not remain in Canada. I do not know what the people of Canada would have done since 1945 if it had not been for immigrant professionals from Europe and England. Since that time some 4,500 immigrant doctors came to Canada and helped out in this pinch.
The hon. member for Timmins said this question should be approached properly and sensibly. I feel it should be approached not only from the point of view of health services but also from the point of view of Great Britain being the only country in the free world which has a national health insurance scheme.
In the March 26, issue of V.S. News and World Report there is a splendid article with the provocative title "Disappearing Doctors: New Crisis in Britain" which examines the scheme in the United Kingdom. The shortage of recruits to the medical profession is not new knowledge to us. It may be to the Canadian Manufacturers' Association, the farm unions and other groups; but this condition 
has been known to the Canadian medical profession and this government, if to no one else, for some time. For the past five years it has been a certainty that the number of people going into medicine is decreasing from year to year. In Great Britain with a population of approximately 50 million there are approximately 1,600 graduates per year in the medical field. The entire tenor of the article represents a gloomy forecast. We do not wish to encounter the same difficulty experienced in the United Kingdom.


Murdo William Martin: Will the hon. member permit a question? Does he mean there are only 1,600 graduates out of the 12,000 students?


George Clark Fairfield: It will be understood that a student spends eight years in the study of medicine. I am not a good mathematician but 12,000 students must be divided by eight years. There are roughly 1,600 graduates a year in Great Britain and 800 a year in Canada. In Canada there are probably 6,000 to 6,500 students in medicine but only 800 graduate each year from the eight year course of study.
Let me read an excerpt from the article to which I referred:
Why is British medicine under nationalization said to be in "a mess"? Why are hundreds of young doctors deserting socialized medicine to practise in countries free of government control?
The answers that you get from independent authorities are: Working conditions imposed by the government as a monopoly employer of doctors are proving to be more and more intolerable. One result has been a decline in the number of people choosing medicine as a career. Among those who study medicine, a steadily increasing number are refusing to work here.


Murdo William Martin: Would the hon. gentleman permit another question? Would the hon. gentleman not agree that the present unrest in Great Britain is not confined to the medical profession but arises as a result of the government wage freeze?


George Clark Fairfield: Mr. Speaker, this motion is confined to a specific recommendation. I will not yield1 to the temptation of engaging in a discussion of doctor-patient relationships and other facets of this subject. I shall confine my remarks strictly to the question of the introduction of legislation to establish a comprehensive system of national health insurance as referred to in the terms of the motion.
I have spoken to many medical doctors who have emigrated to Canada from the United Kingdom. A great many resident surgeons and interns in hospitals in Great Britain are from India and other former colonial nations who are now taking over the actual practice of medicine in the hospitals in that country.

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Lord Taylor, a socialist spokesman on medical problems in the House of Lords, is reported in this article to have said:
I cannot honestly recommend you to go Into such hospitals as a casualty. In many cases, there is no casualty officer. A house surgeon will have to leave the operating theater when he can treat you. His experience will he far less than that of your general medical practitioner. When he comes, he will probably not he a British graduate, and he may well have difficulty in understanding what you say. This is at a time when speed and efficiency may be literally lifesaving.
These are important facets of this question. Speaking politically they could perhaps be ignored. But this government intends to study the question thoroughly. It must be approached on a reasonable basis. We wish to avoid the crisis that has arisen in the United Kingdom.
I have spoken to many practitioners who left the United Kingdom and came to Canada. They speak of the vast number of patients who daily appear in the office of the ordinary general practitioner. With sometimes as many as 60 or 80 patients a day the patients receive little care. This is quite understandable because a doctor has only a limited time to devote to his patients. It was said that all those patients with a similar complaint are asked to stand up and they are given pink pills. I use that merely as an illustration.
This type of treatment has created a demand among ordinary citizens for private practitioners. As a result of this a great number of doctors who previously worked under the national health scheme have established a private practice and dissociated themselves from the scheme. This has created a still greater shortage in the medical profession. This is having a snowball effect and it will continue to do so, according to the investigations overseas. I quote from this article as follows:
General practitioners, most of whom are burdened with a steadily increasing work load, are being forced to give less and less time to their patients.
Dr. Seale, who is a Harvard-trained medical economist in Great Britain, predicts that this growing shortage of doctors and the increasing demands for medical care will eventually force into private practice more and more of those doctors who are burdened with this type of practice. Whether or not this can be swallowed holus-bolus, I do not know. One quotation here is very interesting. It evidently comes from the same type of official and need not be taken as gospel. However, this man had this to say:
"If we had a chance to do It again," one high ranking official says, "I think that we would favour some form of compulsory medical insurance, supplemented by tax funds together with subsidies to hospitals to keep down costs. We would also act to limit the cost of drugs. In short, the state would insure that everyone had access to medical
government payroll."
You may say it is a very great political expedient to go to the country and say, "We are going to make all doctors work for a salary, as they do in the United Kingdom, of about $6,700 a year; there would be no time limit to the amount that they work; there is no such thing as a 40 hour work week; and they will be happy with it". I can warn you now that they are not happy with it in the United Kingdom and they have not been happy with it. The results are now coming to the fore in that unfortunate kingdom. The end of the article is particularly worthy of note, and I quote it as follows:
Whatever is done, one thing is clear in Britain: After 14 years of socialized medicine, a growing number of experts are coming to the conclusion that something is wrong with the system-and they are speaking out for the first time.
The alarm bell has been touched off by the realization that Britain is the only advanced industrial nation that is losing many of its best young physicians through emigration at a time when there is an acute shortage of doctors at home.
I therefore must warn not only our own government but the members of the opposition that if they go ahead without the concurrence of the doctors and, roughshod, push them into some form of compulsory work, they will bring about the same results as those now being observed in the United Kingdom.


Harold Edward Winch: I should like to ask the hon. member a question. In view of what he said, will the hon. member in this House of Commons, as a worthy member of the medical profession, recite for us the Hippocratic oath?


Mr. P. B. Rynard (Simcoe East):: Mr. Speaker, in the few brief minutes allowed to me it gives me a great deal of pleasure to speak on this motion introduced by the hon. member for Timmins. One of the things I think I might point out is that the need for beds for tuberculosis patients is becoming less year after year, and we are glad this is true. It is due to better prevention, antibiotics and the use of new drugs which allow some of these people to be treated in their own homes. It is a paradox that we find just the opposite situation in our active treatment hospitals where we are short of surgical beds and medical beds by the thousands. As has been pointed out by the hon. member who has just spoken, we are today seriously short of doctors in this country. Not only are we short of doctors but we are short of nurses and of dentists. Any plan

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that would be put into effect would have to take into consideration those problems of shortages.
What is the reason for those shortages? This shortage situation is something that has been going on since early in the 50's. Governments and medical schools have noted it. The situation has progressed until today we have practising in this country some 4,500 doctors who are a gift from the United Kingdom. If we did not have those doctors, I just wonder how we would man our hospitals today, how we would practise medicine and look after the people in this country. That indicates the shortage we have today in the trained personnel required to operate these hospitals and to supply these services that we are asking for in this motion. As the hon. member has stated, it takes some years to graduate a doctor. We now are obliged to wait for those eight years required for training and there is no relief in sight from larger classes. In other words, we must get more students from our schools into our medical faculties. How are we going to do that?


Murdo William Martin: Will the hon. member permit a question?


Philip Bernard Rynard: Yes.


Murdo William Martin: From what the hon. member has said, would he not agree that the doctor problem in this country is identical with the one in Great Britain, namely that of shortage?


Philip Bernard Rynard: I should like to state to the hon. member for Timmins that we have been taking some of that shortage. Maybe we are responsible for some of that shortage because, as has been pointed out, we have 4,500 of those doctors operating in Canada. What I am trying to say to you, Mr. Speaker, is this. If those people had not come here, how would we operate today? How would we look after the sick? How would we look after the surgical cases? How would we do all this if we had not had that gift from the United Kingdom and other countries.
This shortage must be alleviated. I see that my time is just about up. I am hoping that the royal commission will bring in recommendations which will point the way to alleviating that shortage and will give to the Canadian people the best medical care in the world, which they have received
over the last few years. We have on this continent the highest standard of medical care in existence anywhere in the world. Let us not horse trade in that matter. We must keep that standard up. I see that my time is up.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Lionel Chevrier: May I inquire of the house leader what the business will be for tomorrow? I hope it will also be possible for him to give some indication of what it will be for Friday.


Gordon Minto Churchill: For tomorrow, we shall take any third readings that are on the order paper, and then the following items-and I shall name nine of them. Most of them have been before the house earlier and I presume everyone is ready to discuss them. If the order is to be altered, both parties on the other side will be informed in good time tomorrow morning. Tentatively, however, I put them in this order: 1, the resolution on the electoral boundaries commission, which has already been discussed; 2, Bill No. C-86, the amendment to the British North America Act concerning the Senate; 3, the resolution which appeared today dealing with retirement annuities for senators; 4, Bill No. C-79, the Customs Act amendment; 5, the copyright convention in the name of the Secretary of State; 6, the resolution concerning the Freight Rates Reduction Act; 7, the Currency, Mint and Exchange Fund Act; 8, the resolution dealing with crown corporations; and 9, the supplementary estimates. Just to repeat, may I say if that order is to be altered early notice will be given tomorrow morning to the opposite side.


Lionel Chevrier: May I inquire if we will follow that procedure both Thursday and Friday?


Gordon Minto Churchill: That I cannot be sure of at the moment; it depends on the progress that is made.


Lionel Chevrier: Would the house leader indicate whether or not we will return to the budget?


Gordon Minto Churchill: I express the hope we will return to the budget.


[Stage Direction]
It being three minutes after six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.

[Stage Direction]
INTERNATIONAL WHEAT AGREEMENT, 1962 as adopted at the final plenary session held at Geneva on 10 March 1962

[Stage Direction]
The governments signatory to this agreement,
Considering that the international wheat agreement, 1949 was revised and renewed in 1953, 1956 and 1959, and
Considering that the international wheat agreement, 1959 expires on 31 July 1962 and that it is desirable to conclude a new agreement for a further period,-
Have agreed as follows:
PART I.-GENERAL Article 1 Objectives
The objectives of this agreement are:
(a)	To assure supplies of wheat and wheat flour to importing countries and markets for wheat and wheat flour to exporting countries at equitable and stable prices;
(b)	To promote the expansion of the international trade in wheat and wheat flour and to secure the freest possible flow of this trade in the interests of both exporting and importing countries, and thus contribute to the development of countries, the economies of which depend on commercial sales of wheat;
(c)	To overcome the serious hardship caused to producers and consumers by burdensome surpluses and critical shortages of wheat;
(d)	To encourage the use and consumption of wheat and wheat flour generally, and in particular in developing countries, so as to improve health and nutrition in those countries and thus to assist in their development; and
(e)	In general to further international cooperation in connection with world wheat problems, recognizing the relationship of the trade in wheat to the economic stability of markets for other agricultural products.
Article 2 Definitions
(1)	For the purposes of this agreement:
(a)	"Advisory committee on price equivalents" means the committee established under Article 31;
(b)	"Balance of commitment" means the amount of wheat which an exporting country is obliged to make available at not greater than the maximum price under Article 5, that is, the amount by which its datum quantity with respect to importing countries exceeds the actual commercial purchases from it by those countries in the crop year at the relevant time;
(c)	"Balance of entitlement" means the amount of wheat which an importing country is entitled to purchase at not greater than the maximum price under Article 5; that is, the amount by which its datum quantity with respect to the exporting country or countries concerned, as the context requires, exceeds its actual commercial purchases from those countries in the crop year at the relevant time;
(d)	"Bushel" means 60 pounds avoirdupois or 27.2155.. kilogrammes;
(e)	"Carrying charges" means the costs incurred for storage, interest and insurance in holding wheat;
(f)	"Certified seed wheat" means wheat which has been officially certified according to the custom of the country of origin and which conforms to recognized specification standards for seed wheat in that country;
(g)	"C. & f." means cost and freight;
(h)	"Council" means the international wheat council established by the international wheat agreement, 1949 and continued in being by Article 25;
(i)	"Crop year" means the period from 1 August to 31 July;
(j)	"Datum quantity" means:
(i)	In the case of an exporting country the average annual commercial purchases from that country by importing countries during the years determined under Article 15;
(ii)	In the case of an importing country the average annual commercial purchases from exporting countries or from a particular exporting country, as the context requires, during the years determined under Article 15;
(k)	"Executive committee" means the committee established under Article 30;
(l)	"Exporting country" means, as the context requires either;
[Stage Direction]
(i)	the government of a country listed in annex B which has accepted or acceded to this agreement and has not withdrawn therefrom; or
(ii)	that country itself and the territories in respect of which the rights and obligations of its government under this agreement apply.
(m)	"F.a.q." means fair average quality;
(n)	"F.o.b." means free on board ocean vessel or sea-going vessel, as the case may be, and in the case of French wheat delivered at a Rhine port, free on board river craft;
(o)	"Importing country" means, as the context requires, either:
(i)	the government of a country listed in annex C which has accepted or acceded to this agreement and has not withdrawn therefrom; or
(ii)	that country itself and the territories in respect of which the rights and obligations of its government under this agreement apply;
(p)	"Marketing costs" means all usual charges incurred in marketing, chartering, and forwarding;
(q)	"Maximum price" means the maximum prices specified in or determined under Articles 6 or 7 or one of those prices, as the context requires;
(r)	"Maximum price declaration" means a declaration made in accordance with Article 13;
(s)	"Metric ton", or 1,000 kilogrammes, means 36.74371 bushels;
(t)	"Minimum price" means the minimum prices specified in or determined under Articles 6 or 7 or one of those prices, as the context requires;
(u)	"Price range" means prices between the minimum and maximum prices specified in or determined under Articles 6 or 7, including the minimum prices but excluding the maximum prices;
(v)	"Purchase" means a purchase for import of wheat exported or to be exported from an exporting country or from other than an exporting country, as the case may be, or the quantity of such wheat so purchased, as the context requires. Where reference is made in this agreement to a purchase, it shall be understood to refer not only to purchases concluded between the governments concerned but also to purchases concluded between private traders and to purchases concluded between a private trader and the government concerned. In this definition "government" shall be deemed to include the government of any territory in respect of which the rights and obligations of any
government accepting or acceding to this agreement apply under Article 37;
(w)	"Territory" in relation to an exporting or importing country includes any territory in respect of which the rights and obligations under this agreement of the government of that country apply under Article 37;
(x)	"Wheat" includes wheat grain of any description, class, type, grade or quality and, except in Article 6, wheat flour.
(2)	All calculations of the wheat equivalent of purchases of wheat flour shall be made on the basis of the rate of extraction indicated by the contract between the buyer and the seller. If no such rate is indicated, 72 units by weight of wheat flour shall, for the purpose of such calculations, be deemed to be equivalent to 100 units by weight of wheat grain unless the council decides otherwise.
Article 3
Commercial Purchases and Special Transactions
(1)	A commercial purchase for the purposes of this agreement is a purchase as defined in Article 2 which conforms to the usual commercial practices in international trade and which does not include those transactions referred to in paragraph (2) of this article.
(2)	A special transaction for the purposes of this agreement is one which, whether or not within the price range, includes features introduced by the government of a country concerned which do not conform with usual commercial practices. Special transactions include the following:
(a)	Sales on credit in which, as a result of government intervention, the interest rate, period of payment, or other related terms do not conform with the commercial rates, periods or terms prevailing in the world market;
(b)	Sales in which the funds for the purchase of wheat are obtained under a loan from the government of the exporting country tied to the purchase of wheat;
(c)	Sales for currency of the importing country which is not transferable or convertible into currency or goods for use in the exporting country;
(d)	Sales under trade agreements with special payments arrangements which include clearing accounts for settling credit balances bilaterally through the exchange of goods, except where the exporting country and the importing country concerned agree that the sale shall be regarded as commercial;
(e)	Barter transactions

(i)	which result from the intervention of governments where wheat is exchanged at other than prevailing world prices, or
(ii)	which involve sponsorship under a government purchase program except where the purchase of wheat results from a barter transaction in which the country of final destination was not named in the original barter contract;
(f)	A gift of wheat or a purchase of wheat out of a monetary grant by the exporting country made for that specific purpose;
(g)	Any other categories of transactions that include features introduced by the government of a country concerned which do not conform with usual commercial practices, as the council may prescribe.
(3)	Any question raised by the executive secretary or by any exporting or importing country as to whether a transaction is a commercial purchase as defined in paragraph
(1)	of this article or a special transaction as defined in paragraph (2) of this article shall be decided by the council.
PART II.-RIGHTS AND OBLIGATIONS Article 4
Purchases within the Price Range
(1)	Each importing country undertakes that not less than the percentage specified for that country in annex A of its total commercial purchases of wheat in any crop year shall be purchased from exporting countries at prices within the price range and that any additional commercial purchases of wheat from exporting countries shall also be at prices within the price range, except when a maximum price declaration is in effect in respect of any exporting country in which case the provisions of Article 5 shall apply.
(2)	Exporting countries undertake, in association with one another, that wheat from their countries shall be made available for purchase by importing countries in any crop year at prices within the price range in quantities sufficient to satisfy the commercial requirements of those countries, except when a maximum price declaration is in effect in respect of an exporting country, in which case the provisions of Article 5 shall apply to that country.
(3)	For the purposes of this agreement, except as provided in Article 5, any wheat purchased from an importing country by a second importing country which originated during that crop year from an exporting country shall be deemed to have been purchased from that exporting country by the second importing country. Subject to the provisions of Article 19, this paragraph shall
apply to wheat flour only if the wheat flour originated from the exporting country concerned.
Article 5
Purchases at the Maximum Price
(1)	If the council makes a maximum price declaration in respect of an exporting country, that country shall make available for purchase by importing countries at not greater than the maximum price its balance of commitment toward those countries to the extent that the balance of entitlement of any importing country with respect to all exporting countries is not exceeded.
(2)	If the council makes a maximum price declaration in respect of all exporting countries, each importing country shall be entitled, while the declaration is in effect,
(a)	To purchase from exporting countries at prices not greater than the maximum price its balance of entitlement with respect to all exporting countries; and
(b)	To purchase wheat from any source without being regarded as committing any breach of paragraph (1) of Article 4.
(3)	If the council makes a maximum price declaration in respect of one of more exporting countries, but not all of them, each importing country shall be entitled while the declaration is in effect,
(a)	To make purchases under paragraph (1) of this article from such one or more exporting countries and to purchase the balance of its commercial requirements within the price range from the other exporting countries, and
(b)	To purchase wheat from any source without being regarded as committing any breach of paragraph (1) of Article 4 to the extent of its balance of entitlement with respect to such one or more exporting countries as at the effective date of the declaration, provided such balance is not larger than its balance of entitlement with respect to all exporting countries.
(4)	Purchases by any importing country from an exporting country in excess of the balance of entitlement of that importing country with respect to all exporting countries shall not reduce the obligation of that exporting country under this article. The provisions of paragraph (3) of Article 4 shall apply also to this article provided the balance of entitlement of any importing country with respect to all exporting countries is not thereby exceeded.
(5)	In determining whether it has fulfilled its required percentage under paragraph (1) of Article 4, purchases made by any importing
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country while a maximum price declaration is in effect, subject to the limitations in paragraphs (2) (b) and (3) (b) of this article,
(a)	shall be taken into account if those purchases were made from any exporting country, including an exporting country in respect of which the declaration was made, and
(b)	shall be entirely disregarded if those purchases were made from a country other than an exporting country.
Article 6 Prices of Wheat
(1)-(a) The basic minimum and maximum prices for the duration of this agreement shall
be:
Minimum	 $1.62J
Maximum	 $2.02£
Canadian currency per bushel at the parity for the Canadian dollar, determined for the purposes of the international monetary fund as at 1 March 1949, for No. 1 Manitoba Northern wheat in bulk in store Fort William/Port Arthur. The basic minimum and maximum prices, and the equivalents thereof hereafter referred to, shall exclude such carrying charges and marketing costs as may be agreed between the buyer and the seller.
(b)	Durum wheat and certified seed wheat are excluded from the provisions relating to maximum prices.
(c)	Carrying charges as agreed between the buyer and seller may accrue for the buyer's account only after an agreed date specified in the contract under which the wheat is sold.
(2)	The equivalent maximum price for bulk wheat for:
(a)	No. 1 Manitoba Northern wheat in store Vancouver shall be the maximum price for No. 1 Manitoba Northern wheat in bulk in store Fort William/Port Arthur specified in paragraph (1) of this article;
(b)	No. 1 Manitoba Northern wheat f.o.b. Port Churchill, Manitoba, shall be the price equivalent to the c. & f. price in the country of destination of the maximum price for No. 1 Manitoba Northern wheat in bulk in store Fort William/Port Arthur specified in paragraph (1) of this article, computed by using currently prevailing transportation costs and exchange rates;
(c)	Argentine wheat in store ocean ports shall be the maximum price for No. 1 Manitoba Northern wheat in bulk in store Fort William/Port Arthur specified in paragraph
(1)	of this article, converted into Argentine currency at the prevailing rate of exchange,
making such allowance for difference in quality as may be agreed between the exporting country and the importing country concerned;
(d)	f.a.q. Australian wheat in store ocean ports shall be the maximum price for No. 1 Manitoba Northern wheat in bulk in store Fort William/Port Arthur specified in store graph (1) of this article, converted into Australian currency at the prevailing rate of exchange, making such allowance for difference in quality as may be agreed between the exporting country and the importing country concerned;
(e)	French wheat on sample or on description f.o.b. French ports or at the French border (whichever is applicable) shall be the price equivalent to the c. & f. price in the country of destination, or the c. & f. price at an appropriate port for delivery to the country of destination, of the maximum price for No. 1 Manitoba Northern wheat in bulk in store Fort William/Port Arthur specified in paragraph (1) of this Article, computed by using currently prevailing transportation costs and exchange rates and by making such allowance for difference in quality as may be agreed between the exporting country and the importing country concerned;
(f)	Italian wheat on sample or on description f.o.b. Italian ports or at the Italian border (whichever is applicable) shall be the price equivalent to the c. & f. price in the country of destination, or the c. & f. price at an appropriate port for delivery to the country of destination, of the maximum price for No. 1 Manitoba Northern wheat in bulk in store Fort William/Port Arthur specified in paragraph (1) of this article, computed by using currently prevailing transportation costs and exchange rates and by making such allowance for difference in quality as may be agreed between the exporting country and the importing country concerned;
(g)	(i) Mexican wheat on sample or on description f.o.b. Mexican gulf ports or at the Mexican border (whichever is applicable) shall be the price equivalent to the c. & f. price in the country of destination of the maximum price for No. 1 Manitoba Northern wheat in bulk in store Fort William/Port Arthur specified in paragraph (1) of this article, computed by using currently prevailing transportation costs and exchange rates and by making such allowance for difference in quality as may be agreed between the exporting country and the importing country concerned;
(ii) Mexican wheat on sample or on description in store Mexican Pacific ports shall be the maximum price for No. 1

Manitoba Northern wheat in bulk in store Fort William/Port Arthur specified in paragraph (1) of this article, converted into Mexican currency at the prevailing rate of exchange, making such allowance for difference in quality as may be agreed between the exporting country and the importing country concerned;
(h)	Spanish wheat on sample or on description f.o.b. Spanish ports or at the Spanish border (whichever is applicable) shall be the price equivalent to the c. & f. price in the country of destination, or the c. & f. price at an appropriate port for delivery to the country of destination, of the maximum price for No. 1 Manitoba Northern wheat in bulk in store Fort William/Port Arthur specified in paragraph (1) of this article, computed by using currently prevailing transportation costs and exchange rates and by making such allowance for difference in quality as may be agreed between the exporting country and the importing country concerned;
(i)	Swedish wheat on sample or on description f.o.b. Swedish ports between Stockholm and Gothenburg, both included, shall be the price equivalent to the c. & f. price in the country of destination of the maximum price for No. 1 Manitoba Northern wheat in bulk in store Fort William/Port Arthur specified in paragraph (1) of this article, computed by using currently prevailing transportation costs and exchange rates and by making such allowance for difference in quality as may be agreed between the exporting country and the importing country concerned;
(j)	No. 1 heavy dark northern spring wheat in store Duluth/Superior shall be the maximum price for No. 1 Manitoba Northern wheat in bulk in store Fort William/Port Arthur specified in paragraph (1) of this article, computed by using the prevailing rate of exchange and by making such allowance for difference in quality as may be agreed between the exporting country and the importing country concerned;
(k)	No. 1 hard winter wheat f.o.b. gulf/ Atlantic ports of the United States of America shall be the price equivalent to the c. & f. price in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland of the maximum price for No. 1 Manitoba Northern wheat in bulk in store Fort William/Port Arthur specified in paragraph (1) of this article, computed by using currently prevailing transportation costs and exchange rates and by making such allowance for difference in quality as may be agreed between the exporting country and the importing country concerned;
(l)	No. 1 soft white wheat or No. 1 hard winter wheat in store Pacific ports of the United States of America shall be the maximum price for No. 1 Manitoba Northern wheat in bulk in store Fort William/Port Arthur specified in paragraph (1) of this article, computed by using the prevailing rate of exchange and by making such allowance for difference in quality as may be agreed between the exporting country and the importing country concerned;
(m)	Soviet south winter wheat f.o.b. Black sea ports or Baltic ports or at U.S.S.R. border (whichever is applicable) shall be the price equivalent to the c. and f. price in the country of destination for the maximum price of No. 1 Manitoba Northern wheat in bulk in store Fort William/Port Arthur specified in paragraph (1) of this article, computed by using currently prevailing transportation costs and exchange rates and by making such allowance for difference in quality as may be agreed between the exporting country and the importing country concerned.
(3)	The equivalent minimum price for bulk wheat for:
(a)	No. 1 Manitoba Northern wheat f.o.b. Vancouver,
(b)	No. 1 Manitoba Northern wheat f.o.b. Port Churchill, Manitoba,
(c)	Argentine wheat f.o.b. Argentina,
(d)	f.a.q. wheat f.o.b. Australia,
(e)	Mexican wheat on sample or on description f.o.b. Mexican ports, or at the Mexican border (whichever is applicable),
(f)	No. 1 hard winter wheat f.o.b. gulf/ Atlantic ports of the United States of America, and
(g)	No. 1 soft white wheat or No. 1 hard winter wheat f.o.b. Pacific ports of the United States of America,
(h)	Soviet south winter wheat f.o.b. Black sea ports or Baltic ports or at U.S.S.R. border (whichever is applicable),
shall be respectively:
the f.o.b. price Vancouver, Port Churchill, Argentina, Australia, Mexican ports, United States of America gulf/Atlantic ports, United States of America Pacific ports and the Black sea ports and Baltic ports of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics equivalent to the c. and f. price in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland of the minimum price for No. 1 Manitoba Northern wheat in bulk in store Fort William/Port Arthur specified in paragraph (1) of this article, computed by using currently prevailing transportation costs and exchange rates and by making such allowance for difference in quality as may be agreed between the exporting country and the importing country concerned,
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(i)	No. 1 heavy dark northern spring wheat in store Duluth/Superior shall be the minimum price for No. 1 Manitoba Northern wheat in bulk in store Fort William/Port Arthur specified in paragraph (1) of this article, computed by using the prevailing rate of exchange and by making such allowance for difference in quality as may be agreed between the exporting and the importing country concerned,
(j)	French wheat on sample or on description f.o.b. French ports, or at the French border (whichever is applicable),
(k)	Italian wheat on sample or on description f.o.b. Italian ports, or at the Italian border (whichever is applicable),
(l)	Spanish wheat on sample or on description f.o.b. Spanish ports, or at the Spanish border (whichever is applicable),
(m)	Swedish wheat on sample or on description f.o.b. Swedish ports between Stockholm and Gothenburg, both included, shall be:
the price equivalent to the c. and f. price in the country of destination, or the c. and f. price at an appropriate port for delivery to the country of destination, of the minimum price for No. 1 Manitoba Northern wheat in bulk in store Fort William/Port Arthur specified in paragraph (1) of this article, computed by using currently prevailing transportation costs and exchange rates and by making such allowance for difference in quality as may be agreed between the exporting country and the importing country concerned.
(4)	For the period of closed navigation between Fort William/Port Arthur and the Canadian Atlantic ports, equivalent maximum and minimum prices shall be determined by references only to the lake and rail movement of wheat from Fort William/Port Arthur to Canadian winter ports.
(5)	The executive committee may in consultation with the advisory committee on price equivalents, determine the minimum and maximum price equivalents for wheat at points other than those specified above and may also designate any description, class, type, grade or quality of wheat other than those specified in paragraphs (2) and (3) of this article and determine the minimum and maximum price equivalents thereof; provided that, in the case of any other wheat the price equivalent of which has not yet been determined, the minimum and maximum prices for the time being shall be derived from the minimum and maximum prices of the description, class, type, grade or quality of wheat specified in this article, or subsequently designated by the executive committee in consultation with the advisory committee on
price equivalents, which is most closely comparable to such other wheat by the addition of an appropriate premium or by the deduction of an appropriate discount.
(6)	If any exporting or importing country represents to the executive committee that any price equivalent established under paragraph (2), (3) or (5) of this article, is, in the light of current transportation or exchange rates or market premiums or discounts, no longer fair, the executive committee shall consider the matter and may, in consultation with the advisory committee on price equivalents, make such adjustments as it considers desirable.
(7)	In establishing equivalent minimum and maximum prices under paragraphs (2), (3), (5) or (6) of this article and subject to the provisions of Article 16 relating to Durum wheat and certified seed wheat, no allowance for difference in quality shall be made which would result in the equivalent minimum and maximum price of any wheat being fixed at a level higher than the basic minimum or maximum price, respectively, specified in paragraph (1).
(8)	If a dispute arises as to what premium or discount is appropriate for the purposes of paragraphs (5) and (6) of this article in respect of any description of wheat specified in paragraph (2) or (3) or designated under paragraph (5) the executive committee, in consultation with the advisory committee on price equivalents, shall on the request of the exporting or importing country concerned decide the issue.
(9)	All decisions of the executive committee under paragraphs (5), (6) and (8) of this article shall be binding on all exporting and importing countries, provided that any of those countries which considers that any such decision is disadvantageous to it may ask the council to review that decision.
Article 7
Prices of Wheat Flour
(1)	Commercial purchases of wheat flour will be deemed to be at prices consistent with the prices for wheat specified in or determined under Article 6 unless a statement to the contrary, with supporting information, is received by the council from any exporting or importing country, in which case the council shall, with the assistance of any countries concerned, consider the matter and decide whether the price is so consistent.
(2)	The council may in co-operation with any exporting and importing countries carry out studies of the prices of wheat flour in relation to the prices of wheat.

Article 8
Countries which both export and import wheat
(1)	For the duration of this agreement and for the purposes of its application, a country listed in annex B shall be regarded as an exporting country and a country listed in annex C shall be regarded as an importing country.
(2)	Any country listed in annex C which makes wheat available for purchase by any exporting or importing country shall do so at prices consistent with the price range, except in the case of denatured feed wheat, and in making such wheat available for purchase shall avoid taking any action which would be prejudicial to the operation of this agreement.
(3)	Any country listed in annex B which desires to purchase wheat shall endeavour so far as possible to purchase its requirements from exporting countries at prices within the price range and, in meeting its requirements, to avoid taking any action which would be prejudicial to the operation of this agreement.
PART III.-ADJUSTMENTS Article 9
Adjustment in Case of Short Crop
(1)	Any exporting country which fears that it may be prevented by a short crop from carrying out its obligations under this agreement in respect of a particular crop year shall report the matter to the council at the earliest possible date and apply to the council to be relieved of a part or the whole of its obligations for that crop year. An application made to the council pursuant to this paragraph shall be heard without delay.
(2)	The council shall, in dealing with a request for relief under this article, review the exporting country's supply situation and the extent to which the exporting country has observed the principle that it should, to the maximum extent feasible, make wheat available for purchase to meet its obligations under this agreement.
(3)	The council shall also, in dealing with a request for relief under this article, have regard to the importance of the exporting country's maintaining the principles stated in paragraph (2) of this article.
(4)	If the council finds that the country's representations are well founded, it shall decide to what extent and on what conditions
that country shall be relieved of its obligations for the crop year concerned. The council shall inform the exporting country of its decision.
(5)	If the council decides that the exporting country shall be relieved of the whole or part of its obligations under Article 5 for the crop year concerned, the council shall increase the commitments as represented by the datum quantities of the other exporting countries to the extent agreed by each of them. If such increases do not offset the relief granted under paragraph (4) of this article, it shall reduce by the amount necessary the entitlements, as represented by the datum quantities of the importing countries to the extent agreed by each of them.
(6)	If the relief granted under paragraph
(4)	of this article cannot be entirely offset by measures taken under paragraph (5), the council shall reduce pro rata the entitlement as represented by the datum quantities of the importing countries, account being taken of any reductions under paragraph (5).
(7)	If the commitment as represented by the datum quantity of an exporting country is reduced under paragraph (4) of this article, the amount of such reduction shall be regarded for the purpose of establishing its datum quantity and that of all other exporting countries in subsequent crop years as having been purchased from that exporting country in the crop year concerned. In the light of the circumstances, the council shall determine whether any adjustment shall be made, and if so in what manner, for the purpose of establishing the datum quantities of importing countries in such subsequent crop years as a result of the operation of this paragraph.
(8)	If the entitlement as represented by the datum quantity of an importing country is reduced under paragraphs (5) or (6) of this article to offset the relief granted to an exporting country under paragraph (4), the amount of such reduction shall be regarded as having been purchased in the crop year concerned from that exporting country for the purposes of establishing the datum quantity of that importing country in subsequent crop years.
Article 10
Adjustment in Case of Necessity to Safeguard
Balance of Payments or Monetary Reserves
(1) Any importing country which fears that it may be prevented by the necessity to safeguard its balance of payments or monetary reserves from carrying out its obligations under this agreement in respect of a particular crop year shall report the matter to the council at the earliest possible date and apply to
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the council to be relieved of a part or the whole of its obligations for that crop year. An application made to the council pursuant to this paragraph shall be heard without delay.
(2)	If an application is made under paragraph (1) of this article, the council shall seek and take into account, together with all facts which it considers relevant, the opinion of the international monetary fund, as far as the matter concerns a country which is a member of the fund, on the existence and extent of the necessity referred to in paragraph (1).
(3)	The council shall, in dealing with a request for relief under this article, have regard to the importance of the importing country's maintaining the principle that it should to the maximum extent feasible make purchases to meet its obligations under this agreement.
(4)	If the council finds that the representations of the importing country concerned are well founded, it shall decide to what extent and on what conditions that country shall be relieved of its obligations for the crop year concerned. The council shall inform the importing country of its decision.
Article 11
Adjustments and Additional Purchases In Case of Critical Need
(1)	If a critical need has arisen or threatens to arise in its territory, an importing country may appeal to the council for assistance in obtaining supplies of wheat. With a view to relieving the emergency created by the critical need, the council shall give urgent consideration to the appeal and shall make appropriate recommendations to exporting and importing countries regarding the action to be taken by them.
(2)	In deciding what recommendation should be made in respect of an appeal by an importing country under the preceding paragraph, the council shall have regard to its actual commercial purchases from exporting countries or to the extent of its obligations under Article 4, as may appear appropriate in the circumstances.
(3)	No action taken by an exporting or importing country pursuant to a recommendation made under paragraph (1) of this article shall affect the datum quantity of any exporting or importing country in subsequent crop years.
Article 12 Other Adjustments
(1)	An exporting country may transfer part of its balance of commitment to another exporting country, and an importing country
may transfer part of its balance of entitlement to another importing country for a crop year, subject to approval by the council by a majority of the votes cast by the exporting countries and a majority of the votes cast by the importing countries.
(2)	Any importing country may at any time, by written notification to the council, increase its percentage undertaking referred to in paragraph (1) of Article 4 and such increase shall become effective from the date of receipt of the notification.
(3)	Any importing country which considers that its interests in respect of its percentage undertaking under paragraph (1) of Article 4 and annex A is seriously prejudiced by the non-participation in or withdrawal from this agreement of any country listed in annex B holding not less than 5 per cent of the votes distributed in annex B may, by written notification to the council, apply for a reduction in its percentage undertaking. In such a case, the council shall reduce that importing country's percentage undertaking by the proportion that its maximum annual commercial purchases during the years determined under Article 15 with respect to the non-participating or withdrawing country bears to its datum quantity with respect to all countries listed in annex B and shall then further reduce such revised percentage undertaking by subtracting two and one half.
(4)	The datum quantity of any country acceding under paragraph 4 of Article 35 shall be offset, if necessary, by appropriate adjustments by way of increase or decrease in the datum quantities of one or more exporting or importing countries, as the case may be. Such adjustments shall not be approved unless each exporting or importing country whose datum quantity is thereby changed has consented.

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Article 13
Maximum Price Declarations
(1)	As soon as any of its wheat other than Durum wheat or certified seed wheat is made available for purchase by importing countries at prices not less than the maximum price, an exporting country shall notify the council to that effect. On receipt of such notification the executive secretary acting on behalf of the council shall except as otherwise provided in paragraph (4) of this article and paragraph (4) of Article 16, make a declaration accordingly, referred to in this agreement as a maximum price declaration. The executive secretary shall communicate that

maximum price declaration to all exporting and importing countries as soon as possible after it has been made.
(2)	As soon as all of its wheat which has been made available at not less than the maximum price, other than Durum wheat or certified seed wheat, is again made available for purchase by importing countries at prices less than the maximum price, an exporting country shall notify the council to that effect. Thereupon, the executive secretary, acting on behalf of the council, shall terminate the maximum price declaration in respect of that country by making a further declaration accordingly. He shall communicate such further declaration to all exporting and importing countries as soon as possible after it has been made.
(3)	The council shall, in its rules of procedure, prescribe regulations to give effect to paragraphs (1) and (2) of this article, including regulations determining the effective date of any declaration made under this article.
(4)	If at any time in the opinion of the executive secretary an exporting country has failed to make a notification under paragraph
(1)	or (2) of this article, or has made an incorrect notification, he shall, without prejudice in the latter case to the provisions of paragraph (1) or (2), convene a meeting of the advisory committee on price equivalents. If at any time in the opinion of the executive secretary an exporting country has made a notification under paragraph Cl) but the facts relating thereto do not warrant a maximum price declaration, he shall not make such a declaration but shall refer the matter to the advisory committee. If the advisory committee advises either under this paragraph or in accordance with Article 31 that a declaration under paragraph (1) or (2) should be or should not be made or is incorrect, as the case may be, the executive committee acting on behalf of the council may make or refrain from making a declaration accordingly, or cancel any declaration then in effect, whichever may be appropriate. The executive secretary shall communicate any such declaration or cancellation to all exporting and importing countries as soon as possible.
(5)	Any declaration made under this article shall specify the crop year or crop years to which it relates, and this agreement shall apply accordingly.
(6)	If any exporting or importing country considers that a declaration under this article should be or should not have been made, as the case may be, it may refer the matter to
the council. If the council finds that the representations of the country concerned are well founded, it shall make or cancel a declaration accordingly.
(7)	Any declaration made under paragraphs (1), (2) or (4) of this article which is cancelled in accordance with this article shall be regarded as having full force and effect until the date of its cancellation, and such cancellation shall not affect the validity of anything done under the declaration prior to its cancellation.
Article 14
Action at or approaching the Minimum Price
(1)	If any exporting or importing country is making wheat available for purchase by exporting or importing countries at not greater than the minimum price, or if such a situation appears likely to arise, the executive secretary shall, after bringing the matter to the attention of the advisory committee on price equivalents and communicating as that committee may advise with the country concerned, report the situation to the executive committee.
(2)	If the executive committee, after studying the matter in the light of the advice which the advisory committee shall give under paragraph (1) of this article or under Article 31, considers that the country concerned may be failing to carry out its obligations under the agreement with respect to the minimum price, it shall so notify the country concerned and may require that such country furnish a statement respecting the matter for the committee's further consideration. If, after taking into account any explanation offered by the country concerned, the executive committee is of the view that such country is failing to perform its obligations with respect to the minimum price, it shall so inform the chairman of the council.
(3)	Upon receiving such information from the executive committee, the chairman of the council shall convene a session of the council as soon as possible to consider the matter. The council may make such recommendations to exporting and importing countries as it considers necessary to meet the situation.
(4)	If the advisory committee on price equivalents, in the course of its continuous review of market conditions under Article 31, is of the opinion that, by reason of a serious fall in the price of any wheat, a situation has arisen, or threatens immediately to arise, which appears likely to jeopardize the objectives of the agreement with regard to the minimum price, or if such a situation is called to the advisory committee's attention by the executive secretary on his own initiative or at
[Stage Direction]
the request of any exporting or importing country, it shall immediately inform the executive committee of the facts concerned. The advisory committee shall in so informing the executive committee give particular regard to circumstances which have brought about, or threaten to bring about, a serious fall in the price in any market of wheat in relation to the minimum price. The executive committee shall, if it considers appropriate, inform the chairman of the council who may convene a session of the council to consider the matter. The council may make such recommendations to exporting and importing countries as it considers necessary to meet the situation.
(5)	In advising and informing the executive committee under paragraphs (2) and (4) of this article the advisory committee shall include advice of any action with regard to the determination of allowances for differences of quality which it considers might suitably be taken to meet the situation.
Article 15
Establishment of Datum Quantities
(1)	Datum quantities as defined in Article 2 shall be established for each crop year on the basis of average annual commercial purchases during the first four of the immediately preceding five crop years.
(2)	Before the beginning of each crop year, the council shall establish for that crop year the datum quantity of each exporting country with respect to all importing countries and the datum quantity of each importing country with respect to all exporting countries and to each such country.
(3)	The datum quantities established in accordance with the preceding paragraph shall be re-established whenever a change in the membership of this agreement occurs, regard being had where appropriate to any conditions of accession prescribed by the council under Article 35.
Article 16 Recording
(1)	For the purposes of the operation of this agreement, the council shall keep records for each crop year of all commercial purchases made by importing countries from all sources and of all such purchases made from exporting countries.
(2)	The council shall also keep records so that at all times during a crop year a statement of the balance of commitment of each exporting country with respect to all importing countries and of the balance of entitlement of each importing country with respect to all exporting countries and to each such
country is maintained. Statements of such balances shall, at intervals prescribed by the council, be circulated to all exporting and importing countries.
(3)	For the purposes of paragraph (2) of this article and of paragraph (1) of Article 4, commercial purchases by an importing country from an exporting country entered in the council's records shall also be entered as against the obligations of exporting and importing countries under Articles 4 and 5, or those obligations as adjusted under other articles of this agreement, if the loading period falls within the crop year and
(a)	in the case of importing countries, the purchases are at prices not less than the minimum price, and
(b)	in the case of exporting countries, the purchases are at prices within the price range including, for the purposes of Article 5, the maximum price.
Commercial purchases of wheat flour entered in the council's records shall also be entered as against the obligations of exporting and importing countries under the same conditions, provided that the price of such wheat flour is consistent with a price for wheat in accordance with Article 7.
(4)	If an importing country and a country making wheat available for purchase so agree, purchases at prices above the maximum price shall not be regarded as a breach of Articles 4, 5, or paragraph (2) of Article 8, and shall be entered as against the obligations, if any, of the countries concerned. No maximum price declaration shall be made in respect of such purchases from an exporting country, nor shall they in any way affect the obligations of the exporting country concerned to other importing countries under Article 4.
(5)	In the case of Durum wheat and certified seed wheat, a purchase entered in the council's records shall also be entered as against the obligations of exporting and importing countries under the same conditions whether or not the price is above the maximum price.
(6)	Provided that the conditions prescribed in paragraph (3) of this article are satisfied, the council may authorize purchases to be recorded for a crop year if
(a)	the loading period involved is within a reasonable time up to one month, to be decided by the council, before the beginning or after the end of that crop year, and
(b)	the exporting and importing country concerned so agree.
(7)	For the period of closed navigation between Fort William/Port Arthur and the Canadian Atlantic ports, a purchase shall, notwithstanding the provisions of paragraph (4) of

Article 6, be eligible for entry in the council's records against the obligations of the exporting country and the importing country concerned in accordance with this article if it relates to
(a)	Canadian wheat which is moved by an all-rail route from Fort William/Port Arthur to Canadian Atlantic ports, or
(b)	United States wheat which, except for conditions beyond the control of the buyer and the seller, would be moved by lake and rail to United States Atlantic ports and which, because it cannot be so moved, is moved by an all-rail route to United States Atlantic ports, provided that payment of the extra transportation cost thereby incurred is agreed between the buyer and the seller.
(8)	The council shall prescribe rules of procedure for the reporting and recording of all commercial purchases and special transactions. In those rules it shall prescribe the frequency and the manner in which those purchases and transactions shall be reported and shall prescribe the duties of exporting and importing countries with regard thereto. The council shall also make provision for the amendment of any records or statements maintained by it, including provision for the settlement of any dispute arising in connection therewith.
(9)	Each exporting country and each importing country may be permitted, in the fulfilment of its obligations, a degree of tolerance to be prescribed by the council for that country on the basis of the extent of those obligations and other relevant factors.
(10)	In order that as complete records as possible may be maintained and for the purposes of Article 23, the council shall also keep separate records for each crop year of all special transactions entered into by any exporting or importing country.
Article 17
Estimates of Requirements and Availability of Wheat
(1)	By 1 October in the case of northern hemisphere countries and 1 February in the case of southern hemisphere countries, each importing country shall notify the council of its estimate of its commercial requirements of wheat from exporting countries in that crop year. Any importing country may thereafter notify the council of any changes it may desire to make in its estimate.
(2)	By 1 October in the case of northern hemisphere countries and 1 February in the case of southern hemisphere countries, each exporting country shall notify the council of its estimate of the wheat it will have available for export in that crop year. Any
exporting country may thereafter notify the council of any changes it may desire to make in its estimate.
(3)	All estimates notified to the council shall be used for the purpose of the administration of the agreement and may only be made available to exporting and importing countries on such conditions as the council may prescribe. Estimates submitted in accordance with this article shall in no way be binding.
(4)	Exporting and importing countries shall be free to fulfil their obligations under this agreement through private trade channels or otherwise. Nothing in this agreement shall be construed to exempt any private trader from any laws or regulations to which he is otherwise subject.
(5)	The council may, at its discretion, require exporting and importing countries to co-operate together to ensure than an amount of wheat equal to not less than 10 per cent of the datum quantities of exporting countries for any crop year shall be available for purchase by importing countries under this agreement after 31 January of that crop year.
Article 18 Consultations
(1)	In order to assist an exporting country in assessing the extent of its commitments if a maximum price declaration should be made and without prejudice to the rights enjoyed by any importing country, an exporting country may consult with an importing country regarding the extent to which the rights of that importing country under Articles 4 and 5 will be taken up in any crop year.
(2)	Any exporting or importing country experiencing difficulty in making sales or purchases of wheat under Article 4 may refer the matter to the council. In such a case the council, with a view to the satisfactory settlement of the matter, shall consult with any exporting or importing country concerned and may make such recommendations as it considers appropriate.
(3)	If an importing country should find difficulty in obtaining its balance of entitlement in a crop year at prices not greater than the maximum price while a maximum price declaration is in effect, it may refer the matter to the council. In such a case the council shall investigate the situation and shall consult with exporting countries regarding the manner in which their obligations shall be carried out.
[Stage Direction]
Article 19
Performance under Articles 4 and 5
(1)	The council shall as soon as practicable after the end of each crop year review the performance of exporting and importing countries in relation to their obligations under Articles 4 and 5 during that crop year.
(2)	For the purposes of this review the tolerances as specified by the council under paragraph (9) of Article 16 shall apply.
(3)	Upon application by an importing country in respect of the performance of its obligations in the crop year, the council may take into account the wheat equivalent of flour purchased by it from another importing country provided it can be shown to the satisfaction of the council that such flour was wholly milled from wheat purchased within the agreement from exporting countries.
(4)	In considering the performance of any importing country in relation to its obligations in the crop year:
(a)	the council shall disregard any exceptional importation of wheat from other than exporting countries provided that it can be shown to the satisfaction of the council that such wheat has been or will be used only as feed and that such importation was not at the expense of quantities normally purchased by that importing country from exporting countries. Any decision under this subparagraph shall be by a majority of the votes held by exporting countries and a majority of the votes held by importing countries.
(b)	the council shall disregard any importation from other than exporting countries of wheat which has been denatured for use as feed in a manner acceptable to the council.
(5)	In considering the performance of any importing country in relation to its obligations in the crop year the council may also disregard any purchases by the country concerned of Durum wheat from other importing countries which are traditional exporters of Durum wheat.
Article 20
Defaults under Article 4 or 5
Cl) If, on the basis of the review made under Article 19, any country appears to be in default of its obligations under Article 4 or 5, the council shall decide what action should be taken.
(2)	Before reaching a decision under this article, the council shall give any exporting or importing country concerned the opportunity to present any facts which it considers relevant.
(3)	If the council finds by a majority of the votes held by exporting countries and a majority of the votes held by importing countries that an exporting country or an importing country is in default under Article 4 or 5, it may by a similar vote deprive the country concerned of its voting rights for such period as the council may determine, reduce the other rights of that country to the extent which it considers commensurate with the default, or expel that country from participation in the agreement.
(4)	No action taken by the council under this article shall in any way reduce the obligation of the country concerned in respect of its financial contributions to the council unless that country is expelled from participation in the agreement.
Article 21
Action in Cases of Serious Prejudice
(1)	Any exporting or importing country which considers that its interests as a party to this agreement have been seriously prejudiced by actions of any one or more exporting or importing countries affecting the operation of the agreement may bring the matter before the council. In such a case, the council shall immediately consult with the countries concerned in order to resolve the matter.
(2)	If the matter is not resolved through such consultations, the council may refer the matter to the executive committee or the advisory committee on price equivalents for urgent investigation and report. On receipt of any such report, the council shall consider the matter further and, by a majority of the votes held by the exporting countries and a majority of the votes held by the importing countries, may make recommendations to the countries concerned.
(3)	If, after action has or has not been taken, as the case may be, under paragraph
(2)	of this article, the country concerned is not satisfied that the matter has been satisfactorily dealt with, it may apply to the council for relief. The council may, if it deems appropriate, relieve that country of part of its obligations for the crop year in question. Two thirds of the votes held by the exporting countries and two thirds of the votes held by the importing countries shall be required for a decision granting relief.
(4)	If no relief is granted by the council under paragraph (3) of this article and the country concerned still considers that its interests as a party to this agreement have suffered serious prejudice, it may withdraw from the agreement at the end of the crop

year by giving written notice to the government of the United States of America. If the matter was brought before the council in one crop year and the council's consideration of the application for relief was concluded in the subsequent crop year the withdrawal of the country concerned may be effected within SO days of such conclusion by giving similar notice.
Article 22
Disputes and Complaints
(1)	Any dispute concerning the interpretation or application of this agreement other than a dispute under Articles 19 and 20 which is not settled by negotiation shall, at the request of any country party to the dispute, be referred to the council for decision.
(2)	In any case where a dispute has been referred to the council under paragraph (1) of this article, a majority of countries, or any countries holding not less than one third of the total votes, may require the council, after full discussion, to seek the opinion of the advisory panel referred to in paragraph (3) on the issues in dispute before giving its decision.
(3)	(a) Unless the council unanimously agrees otherwise, the panel shall consist of:
(i)	Two persons, one having wide experience in matters of the kind in dispute and the other having legal standing and experience, nominated by the exporting countries;
(ii)	Two such persons nominated by the importing countries; and
(iii)	A chairman selected unanimously by the four persons nominated under (i) and (ii) or, if they fail to agree, by the chairman of the council.
(b)	Persons from countries whose governments are parties to this agreement shall be eligible to serve on the advisory panel. Persons appointed to the advisory panel shall act in their personal capacities and without instructions from any government.
(c)	The expenses of the advisory panel shall be paid by the council.
(4)	The opinion of the advisory panel and the reasons therefor shall be submitted to the council which, after considering all the relevant information, shall decide the dispute.
(5)	Any complaint that any exporting or importing country has failed to fulfil its obligations under this agreement shall, at the request of the country making the complaint, be referred to the council, which shall make a decision on the matter.
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(6)	Subject to the provisions of Article 20, no exporting or importing country shall be found to have committed a breach of this agreement except by a majority of the votes held by the exporting countries and a majority of the votes held by the importing countries. Any finding that an exporting or importing country is in breach of this agreement shall specify the nature of the breach and if the breach involves default by that country in its obligations under Article 4 or 5, the extent of such default.
(7)	Subject to the provisions of Article 20, if the council finds that an exporting country or an importing country has committed a breach of this agreement it may, by a majority of the votes held by the exporting countries and a majority of the votes held by the importing countries, deprive the country concerned of its voting rights until it fulfils its obligations or expel that country from participation in the agreement.

[Stage Direction]
Article 23
Annual Review of World Wheat Situation
(1)	(a) Guided by the objectives of this agreement as set forth in Article 1, the council shall annually review the world wheat situation and shall inform exporting and importing countries of the effects upon the international trade in wheat of any of the facts which emerge from the review, in order that these effects be kept in mind by those countries in determining and administering their internal agricultural and price policies.
(b)	The review shall be carried out in the light of information obtainable in relation to national production, stocks, prices, trade, including disposals of excess wheat supplies and special transactions, consumption and any other facts which may appear relevant. To facilitate this review the council may supplement such information by studies conducted in co-operation with any exporting or importing country.
(c)	To assist it in its review of disposals of excess wheat supplies, exporting and importing countries shall inform the council of the measures taken by them to secure compliance with the principles that the solution to the problems involved in such disposals should be sought, wherever possible, through efforts to increase consumption, and that such disposals should take place in an orderly manner, and
[Stage Direction]
that where excess wheat supplies are made available on special terms, such arrangements should be made without harmful interference with normal patterns of production and international commercial trade.
(d)	Any exporting or importing country may for the purpose of the annual review submit to the council any information which it considers relevant to the attainment of the objectives of this agreement. Information so submitted shall be taken into account as appropriate by the council in carrying out the annual review.
(2)	For the purposes of this article and those of Article 24, the council shall pay due regard to work done by the food and agriculture organization of the United Nations and other intergovernmental organizations, in order in particular to avoid duplication of work, and may, without prejudice to the generality of paragraph (1) of Article 34, make such arrangements regarding co-operation in any of its activities as it considers desirable with such intergovernmental organizations and also with any governments of members of the United Nations or the specialized agencies not parties to this agreement which have a substantial interest in the international trade in wheat.
(3)	Nothing in this article shall prejudice the complete liberty of action of any exporting or importing country in the determination and administration of its internal agricultural and price policies.
Article 24
Consumption and Utilization of Wheat
(1)	As appropriate, the council shall consider and inform exporting and importing countries of means through which the consumption of wheat may be increased. To this end the council may undertake, in co-operation with exporting and importing countries, studies of such matters as:
(a)	factors affecting the consumption of wheat in various countries; and
(b)	means of achieving increased consumption, particularly in countries where the possibility of increased consumption is found to exist.
Any exporting or importing country may submit to the council information which it considers relevant to the attainment of this purpose.
(2)	Exporting and importing countries, recognizing the special problems of developing countries, shall pay due regard to the principle that excess wheat supplies should,
where possible, be effectively utilized in raising levels of consumption and in assisting in general economic and market development in developing countries with low levels of individual income. Where such wheat is made available on special terms, the exporting and importing countries concerned undertake that such arrangements will be made without harmful interference with normal patterns of production and international commercial trade.
(3)	Any exporting or importing country which makes excess wheat supplies available on special terms under a government assisted program undertakes to provide the council promptly with detailed information relating to such agreements entered into and to report regularly shipments made under such agreements.
PART VI.-GENERAL ADMINISTRATION Article 25
Constitution of the Council
(1)	The international wheat council, established by the international wheat agreement 1949, shall continue in being for the purpose of administering this agreement, with the membership, powers and functions provided in this agreement.
(2)	Each exporting country and each importing country shall be a voting member of the council and may be represented at its meetings by one delegate, alternates, and advisers.
(3)	Such intergovernmental organizations as the council may decide to invite to any of its meetings may each have one non-voting representative in attendance at those meetings.
(4)	The council shall elect a chairman and a vice-chairman who shall hold office for one crop year. The chairman shall have no vote and the vice chairman shall have no vote while acting as chairman.
(5)	The council shall have in the territory of each exporting and importing country, to the extent consistent with its laws, such legal capacity as may be necessary for the exercise of its functions under this agreement.
Article 26
Powers and Functions of the Council
(1)	The council shall establish its rules of procedure.
(2)	The council shall keep such records as are required by the terms of this agreement and may keep such other records as it considers desirable.

(3)	The council shall publish an annual report and may also publish any other information (including, in particular, its annual review or any part or summary thereof) concerning matters within the scope of this agreement.
(4)	In addition to the powers and functions specified in this agreement, the council shall have such other powers and perform such other functions as are necessary to carry out the terms of this agreement.
(5)	The council may, by two thirds of the votes cast by the exporting countries and two thirds of the votes cast by the importing countries, delegate the exercise of any of its powers or functions. The council may at any time revoke such delegation by a majority of the votes cast. Subject to the provisions of Article 13, any decision made under any powers or functions delegated by the council in accordance with this paragraph shall be subject to review by the council at the request of any exporting or importing country made within a period which the council shall prescribe. Any decision, in respect of which no request for review has been made within the prescribed period, shall be binding on all exporting and importing countries.
(6)	In order to enable the council to discharge its functions under this agreement, the exporting and importing countries undertake to make available and supply such statistics and information as are necessary for this purpose.
Article 27 Votes
(1)	The votes to be exercised by the respective delegations of exporting countries on the council shall be those specified in annex B.
(2)	The votes to be exercised by the respective delegations of importing countries on the council shall be those specified in annex C.
(3)	Any exporting country may authorize any other exporting country, and any importing country may authorize any other importing country, to represent its interests and to exercise its votes at any meeting or meetings of the council. Satisfactory evidence of such authorization shall be submitted to the council.
(4)	If at any meeting of the council an importing country or an exporting country is not represented by an accredited delegate and has not authorized another country to exercise its votes in accordance with paragraph (3) of this article, and if at the date
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of any meeting any country has forfeited, has been deprived of, or has recovered its votes under any provisions of this agreement, the total votes to be exercised by the exporting countries shall be adjusted to a figure equal to the total of votes to be exercised at that meeting by the importing countries and redistributed among exporting countries in proportion to their votes.
(5)	Whenever any country becomes or ceases to be a party to this agreement, the council shall redistribute the votes within either annex B or annex C as the case may be, proportionally to the number of votes held by each country listed in that annex.
(6)	No exporting or importing country shall have less than one vote and there shall be no fractional votes.
Article 28
Seat, Sessions and Quorum
(1)	The seat of the council shall be London unless the council decides otherwise by a majority of the votes cast by the exporting countries and a majority of the votes cast by the importing countries.
(2)	The council shall meet at least once during each half of each crop year and at such other times as the chairman may decide.
(3)	The chairman shall convene a session of the council if so requested by (a) five countries or (b) one or more countries holding a total of not less than 10 per cent of the total votes or (c) the executive committee.
(4)	The presence of delegates with a majority of the votes held by the exporting countries and a majority of the votes held by the importing countries prior to any adjustment of votes under Article 27 shall be necessary to constitute a quorum at any meeting of the council.
Article 29 Decisions
(1)	Except where otherwise specified in this agreement, decisions of the council shall be by a majority of the total votes cast.
(2)	Each exporting and importing country undertakes to accept as binding all decisions of the council under the provisions of this agreement.
Article 30 Executive Committee
(1) The council shall establish an executive committee. The members of the executive committee shall be not more than four
[Stage Direction]
exporting countries elected annually by the exporting countries and not more than eight importing countries elected annually by the importing countries. The council shall appoint the chairman of the executive committee and may appoint a vice chairman.
(2)	The executive committee shall be responsible to and work under the general direction of the council. It shall have such powers and functions as are expressly assigned to it under this agreement and such other powers and functions as the council may delegate to it under paragraph (5) of Article 26.
(3)	The exporting countries on the executive committee shall have the same total number of votes as the importing countries. The votes of the exporting countries on the executive committee shall be divided among them as they shall decide, provided that no such exporting country shall have more than 40 per cent of the total votes of those exporting countries. The votes of the importing countries on the executive committee shall be divided among them as they shall decide, provided that no such importing country shall have more than 40 per cent of the total votes of those importing countries.
(4)	The council shall prescribe rules of procedure regarding voting in the executive committee and may make such other provision regarding rules of procedure in the executive committee as it thinks fit, A decision of the executive committee shall require the same majority of votes as this agreement prescribes for the council when making a decision on a similar matter.
(5)	Any exporting or importing country which is not a member of the executive committee may participate, without voting, in the discussion of any question before the executive committee whenever the latter considers that the interests of that country are affected.
Article 31
Advisory Committee on Price Equivalents
(1)	The council shall establish an advisory committee on price equivalents consisting of representatives of not more than four exporting countries and of not more than four importing countries. The chairman of the advisory committee shall be appointed by the council.
(2)	The advisory committee shall keep under continuous review current market conditions, including in particular the movement of prices for wheat and shall immediately inform the executive committee whenever in its opinion a maximum price declaration should be made under Article 13 or a situation of the type
described in paragraph (1) or (4) of Article 14 has arisen or appears likely to arise. The advisory committee shall, in the exercise of its functions under this paragraph take into account any representations made by any exporting or importing country.
(3)	The advisory committee shall advise in accordance with the relevant articles of this agreement and on such other matters as the council or the executive committee may refer to it.
Article 32 The Secretariat
(1)	The council shall have a secretariat consisting of an executive secretary, who shall be its chief administrative officer, and such staff as may be required for the work of the council and its committees.
(2)	The council shall appoint the executive secretary who shall be responsible for the performance of the duties devolving upon the secretariat in the administration of this agreement and for the performance of such other duties as are assigned to him by the council and its committees.
(3)	The staff shall be appointed by the executive secretary in accordance with regulations established by the council.
(4)	It shall be a condition of employment of the executive secretary and of the staff that they do not hold or shall cease to hold financial interest in the trade in wheat and that they shall not seek or receive instructions regarding their duties under this agreement from any government or from any other authority external to the council.
Article 33 Finance
(1)	The expenses of delegations to the council, of representatives on the executive committee, and of representatives on the advisory committee on price equivalents shall be met by their respective governments. The other expenses necessary for the administration of this agreement shall be met by annual contributions from the exporting and importing countries. The contribution of each such country for each crop year shall be in the proportion which the number of its votes bears to the total of the votes of the exporting and importing countries at the beginning of that crop year.
(2)	At its first session after this agreement comes into force, the council shall approve its budget for the period ending 31 July 1963 and assess the contribution to be paid by each exporting and importing country.

(3)	The council shall, at a session during the second half of each crop year, approve its budget for the following crop year and assess the contribution to be paid by each exporting and importing country for that crop year.
(4)	The initial contribution of any exporting or importing country acceding to this agreement under paragraph (4) of Article 35 shall be assessed by the council on the basis of the votes to be distributed to it and the period remaining in the current crop year, but the assessments made upon other exporting and importing countries for the current crop year shall not be altered.
(5)	Contributions shall be payable immediately upon assessment. Any exporting or importing country failing to pay its contribution within one year of its assessment shall forfeit its voting rights until its contribution is paid, but shall not be relieved of its obligations under this agreement, nor shall it be deprived of any of its rights under this agreement unless the council so decides by a majority of the votes held by the exporting countries and a majority of the votes held by the importing countries.
(6)	The council shall, each crop year, publish an audited statment of its receipts and expenditures in the previous crop year.
(7)	The government of the country where the seat of the council is situated shall grant exemption from taxation on the salaries paid by the council to its employees except that such exemption need not apply to the nationals of that country. It shall also grant exemption from taxation on the assets, income and other property of the council.
(8)	The council shall, prior to its dissolution, provide for the settlement of its liabilities and the disposal of its records and assets.
Article 34
Co-operation with other Intergovernmental Organizations
(1)	The council may make whatever arrangements are desirable for consultation and co-operation with the appropriate organs of the United Nations and its specialized agencies and with other intergovernmental organizations.
(2)	If the council finds that any terms of this agreement are materially inconsistent with such requirements as may be laid down by the United Nations or through its appropriate organs and specialized agencies regarding intergovernmental commodity agreements, the inconsistency shall be deemed to be a circumstance affecting adversely
the operation of this agreement and the procedure prescribed in paragraphs (3), (4) and (5) of Article 36 shall be applied.
PART VII.-FINAL PROVISIONS Article 35
Signature, Acceptance, Accession and Entry into Force
(1)	This agreement shall remain open for signature in Washington from 19 April 1962 until and including 15 May 1962 by the governments of the countries listed in annexes B and C.
(2)	This agreement shall be subject to acceptance by the signatory governments in accordance with their respective constitutional procedures. Subject to the provisions of paragraph (8) of this article, instruments of acceptance shall be deposited with the government of the United States of America not later than 16 July 1962.
(3)	This agreement shall be open for accession by any government of a country listed in annexes B or C. Subject to the provisions of paragraph (8) of this article, instruments of accession shall be deposited with the government of the United States of America not later than 16 July 1962. However, any such government may, if it is not granted an extension of time under paragraph (8), and in any event after 16 July 1963, accede to this agreement in accordance with paragraph (4).
(4)	The council may, by two thirds of the votes cast by exporting countries and by two thirds of the votes cast by importing countries, approve accession to this agreement by the government of any member of the United Nations or the specialized agencies or by any government invited to the United Nations wheat conference, 1962, and prescribe conditions for such accession, and in such a case the council shall establish the relevant datum quantities in accordance with Articles 12 and 15. Accession shall be effected by the deposit of an instrument of accession with the government of the United States of America.
(5)	Part I and parts III to VII of this agreement shall enter into force on 16 July 1962 in part II on 1 August 1962 between those governments which have by that date deposited instruments of acceptance or accession under paragraph (2) or (3) of this article, provided that such governments hold not less than two thirds of the votes of exporting countries and not less than two thirds of the votes of importing countries, in accordance with the distribution established in annexes B and C. It shall enter into force
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for any government which subsequently deposits an instrument of acceptance or accession on the date of such deposit.
(6)	For the purposes of the entry into force of this agreement in accordance with paragraph (5) of this article, a notification by any signatory government or by any government entitled to accede to this agreement under paragraph (3) containing an undertaking to seek acceptance or accession to this agreement in accordance with constitutional procedures as rapidly as possible which is received by the government of the United States of America not later than 16 July 1962, shall be regarded as equal in effect to an instrument of acceptance or accession. It is understood that a government which gives such a notification will provisionally apply the agreement and be provisionally regarded as a party thereto until either it deposits its instrument of acceptance or accession in accordance with paragraph (2) or (3) or until the expiry of the period within which such instrument should have been deposited.
(7)	If by 16 July 1962 the conditions laid down in the preceding paragraphs for the entry into force of this agreement are not fulfilled, the governments of those countries which by that date have accepted or acceded to this agreement in accordance with paragraph (2) or (3) of this article may decide by mutual consent that it shall enter into force among them, or they may take whatever other action they consider the situation requires.
(8)	Any government which has not accepted or acceded to this agreement by 16 July 1962 in accordance with paragraph (2) or
(3)	of this article may be granted by the council an extension of time for depositing its instrument of acceptance or accession for any period until and including 16 July 1963.
(9)	Where, for the purposes of the operation of this agreement, reference is made to countries listed in annexes B or C, any country the government of which has acceded to this agreement on conditions prescribed by the council in accordance with paragraph
(4)	of this article, shall be deemed to be listed in the appropriate annex.
(10)	The government of the United States of America will notify all signatory and acceding governments of each signature, acceptance of an accession to this agreement and of all notifications made in accordance with paragraph (6) of this article.
Article 36
Duration, Amendment, and Withdrawal
(1) This agreement shall remain in force until and including 31 July 1965.
(2)	The council shall, at such time as it considers appropriate, communicate to the exporting and importing countries its recommendations regarding renewal or replacement of this agreement. The council may invite any government of a member of the United Nations or the specialized agencies not party to this agreement which has a substantial interest in the international trade in wheat to participate in any of its discussions under this paragraph.
(3)	The council may, by a majority of the votes held by the exporting countries and a majority of the votes held by the importing countries, recommend an amendment of this agreement to the exporting and importing countries.
(4)	The council may fix a time within which each exporting and importing country shall notify the government of the United States of America whether or not it accepts the amendment. The amendment shall become effective upon its acceptance by exporting countries which hold two thirds of the votes of the exporting countries and by importing countries which hold two thirds of the votes of the importing countries.
(5)	Any exporting or importing country which has not notified the government of the United States of America of its acceptance of an amendment by the date on which such amendment becomes effective may, after giving such written notice of withdrawal to the government of the United States of America as the council may require in each case, withdraw from this agreement at the end of the current crop year, but shall not thereby be released from any obligations under this agreement which have not been discharged by the end of that crop year. Any such withdrawing country shall not be bound by the provisions of the amendment occasioning its withdrawal.
(6)	Any exporting country which considers its interests to be seriously prejudiced by the non-participation in this agreement of any country listed in annex C holding not less than 5 per cent of the votes distributed in that annex, or any importing country which considers its interests to be seriously prejudiced by the non-participation in the agreement of any country listed in annex B holding not less than 5 per cent of the votes distributed in that annex, may withdraw from this agreement by giving written notice of withdrawal to the government of the United States of America before 1 August 1962. If an extension of time has been granted by the council under paragraph (8) of Article 35, notice of withdrawal in accordance with this paragraph may be given before the expiry of 14 days after the extension granted.

(7)	Any exporting or importing country which considers its national security to be endangered by the outbreak of hostilities may withdraw from this agreement by giving 30 days' written notice of withdrawal to the government of the United States of America or may apply in the first instance to the council for the suspension of any or all of its obligations under this agreement.
(8)	Any exporting country which considers its interests to be seriously prejudiced by the withdrawal from this agreement of any country listed in annex C holding not less than 5 per cent of the votes distributed in that annex or any importing country which considers its interests to be seriously prejudiced by the withdrawal from the agreement of any country listed in annex B holding not less than 5 per cent of the votes distributed in that annex may withdraw from this agreement by giving written notice of withdrawal to the government of the United States of America before the expiry of 14 days from the withdrawal of the country which is considered to cause such serious prejudice.
(9)	The government of the United States of America will inform all signatory and acceding governments of each notification and notice received under this article.
Article 37
Territorial Application
(1)	Any government may, at the time of signature or acceptance of or accession to this agreement, declare that its rights and obligations under this agreement shall not apply in respect of all or any of the nonmetropolitan territories for the international relations of which it is responsible.
(2)	With the exception of territories in respect of which a declaration has been made in accordance with paragraph (1) of this article, the rights and obligations of any government under this agreement shall apply in respect of all non-metropolitan territories for the international relations of which that government is responsible.
(3)	Any government may, at any time after its acceptance of or accession to this agreement, by notification to the government of the United States of America, declare that its rights and obligations under the agreement shall apply in respect of all or any of the non-metropolitan territories regarding which it has made a declaration in accordance with paragraph (1) of this article.
(4)	Any government may, by giving notification of withdrawal to the government of the United States of America, withdraw from this agreement separately in respect of all
or any of the non-metropolitan territories for whose international relations it is responsible.
(5)	For the purposes of the establishment of datum quantities under Article 15 and the redistribution of votes under Article 27, any change in the application of this agreement in accordance with this article shall be regarded as a change in participation in this agreement in such manner as may be appropriate to the circumstances.
(6)	The government of the United States of America will inform all signatory and acceding governments of any declaration or notification made under this article.
In witness whereof the undersigned, having been duly authorized to this effect by their respective governments, have signed this agreement on the dates appearing opposite their signature.
The texts of this agreement in the English, French, Russian and Spanish languages shall all be equally authentic. The originals shall be deposited in the archives of the government of the United States of America, which shall transmit certified copies thereof to each signatory and acceding government.

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Percentage Undertaking of Importing Countries
Austria . .	  60
Belgium and Luxembourg	 90
Brazil	 30
Ceylon	 80
Cuba	 90
Dominican Republic	 90
Federal Republic of Germany		87J
Federation of Rhodesia and
Nyasaland	 90
India	 70
Indonesia	 70
Iran	 80
Ireland	 90
Israel	 60
Japan	 85
Kingdom of the Netherlands	 90
Liberia	 70
Libya	 70
New Zealand		90
Nigeria	 80
Norway	 90
Philippines	 80
Poland	 50
Portugal	 85
Republic of Korea	 90
Saudi Arabia	 70
South Africa	 90
Switzerland	 87
United Arab Republic	 30
United Kingdom	 90
Vatican City	 100
Venezuela	 60

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Votes of Exporting Countries
Argentina	 70
Australia	 125
Canada	 290
France	 70
Italy	 10
Mexico	 5
Spain	 5
Sweden	 10
Union of Soviet Socialist Republics .. 125 United States of America	 290
Total	1,000

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Votes of Importing Countries
Austria	 6
Belgium and Luxembourg	 33
Brazil	 28
Ceylon	 12
Cuba	 12
Dominican Republic	 2
Federal Republic of Germany	 139
Federation of Rhodesia and
Nyasaland	 6
India	 20
Indonesia	 6
Iran	 4
Ireland	 11
Israel	 6
Japan	 154
Kingdom of the Netherlands	 70
Liberia	 1
Libya	 3
New Zealand	 14
Nigeria	 4
Norway	 18
Philippines	 22
Poland	 10
Portugal	 9
Republic of Korea	 2
Saudi Arabia	 5
South Africa	 10
Switzerland	 23
United Arab Republic	 16
United Kingdom	 339
Vatican City	 1
Venezuela	 14
Total	1,000
[Stage Direction]
Thursday, April 12, 1962