1962-09-28

Mr. Speaker:: Before calling orders of the day I think it would be helpful both to the Chair and to hon. members if I were to refer to Beauchesne and also the standing orders of the house, which I understand all hon. members have in their possession, and merely draw attention, particularly for the benefit of new members, to standing order No. 39 and to citation 171 on page 147 of Beauchesne and those citations which follow on the subsequent pages, dealing with questions. I think a careful study of the standing order and of the commentaries would help both the Chair and hon. members in the proper conduct of the business of this house.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. L. B. Pearson (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Prime Minister whether he has any comment to make on press reports that a number of vessels owned by Canadian companies but registered in the United Kingdom have been carrying material from the Soviet union to Cuba?


Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, the government has investigated reports which were alluded to by the Leader of the Opposition, that eight Canadian owned ships are involved in carrying cargo between the U.S.S.R. and Cuba. I would point out that all ships referred to in the press report, although apparently Canadian owned, are under the British flag and are operated and managed by British companies. Five of the ships have always been under British registry since they were built during the war. The other three were transferred to British registry under an arrangement worked out in 1950.
As the hon. gentleman knows, under maritime law and general international practice, ships are subject to the laws of the country under whose flag they operate.


Hon. Lionel Chevrier (Laurier):: May I ask
a supplementary question of the Secretary of State for External Affairs. Having regard to the fact that these vessels to which the Prime Minister has referred are considered by the government as a contribution to any allied shipping arrangements in case of emergency, and notwithstanding what has just been said, does the minister feel that this kind of trade is in conformity with that policy?


Hon. Howard C. Green (Secretary of State for External Affairs):: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member, as a former minister of transport, should have asked a much more sensible question than that. He knows very well that the answer given by the Prime Minister was the correct one. These ships, under the law, are British ships under British registry and not under Canadian registry. They were put there while the hon. member for Laurier was minister of transport.


Lionel Chevrier: I should like to ask a supplementary question of the minister, who did not take the trouble to answer my first question.


Howard Charles Green: Because it was a foolish question.


Lionel Chevrier: Let me add this. Having regard to the fact that these ships, notwithstanding that they are under British registry, pay income tax to the government of Canada, does the minister consider under these circumstances that this policy is in accordance with the policy of the government?


Howard Charles Green: Well, I have never heard of ships paying income tax.



PUBLIC SERVICE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. A. Byrne (Kootenay East):: May I
direct a question to the Prime Minister. In view of the serious unrest amongst federal civil servants, will the Prime Minister assure the house that he will give immediate consideration to a request by the civil service association for an immediate implementation of salary revisions for classes in group B of the cyclical salary review program-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I should like to draw to the attention of the hon. member, who

Inquiries of the Ministry while he is a new member at this time has had previous experience in this house, the fact that the question he is posing at the moment would be more appropriate for the order paper.


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: Mr. Speaker, I have already indicated that there is serious unrest amongst civil servants in Canada. This is a question which is of great importance at this time.


Mr. Speaker:: With the greatest respect to the hon. member, I am of the opinion that questions should seek information and not proffer it.


Hon. Paul Marlin (Essex East):: Mr. Speaker, may I with great respect suggest that the question was a proper one. The hon. gentleman was seeking to ascertain what was government policy with regard to the kind of negotiations, or instrument for negotiation, through which the civil service wished to carry on talks with the government. Surely that is a proper question. I think the hon. gentleman, under our rules and traditions, should not be denied the opportunity of putting that question.


Mr. Speaker:: In reply to the hon. member for Essex East I feel that although the intentions of the hon. member for Kootenay East may have been legitimate, they did not appear to be so in the form in which the question was asked.


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: May I put my question in somewhat different form to the Prime Minister in the hope that he may see fit to answer it. Would the Prime Minister inform the house what consideration is being given to the civil service request that group B be considered for increases, and will all increases be made retroactive to October 1?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I really do not see any difference between the earlier question and the present one.



HEALTH AND WELFARE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Stanley Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Minister of National Health and Welfare. In view of the many in the country who are concerned about the matter, will the government consider setting up a committee of the house to examine into the circumstances surrounding the sale and distribution

of thalidomide, to consider what is being done to aid the victims, and to take steps to prevent a recurrence of such a tragedy?


Hon. J. W. Monieiih (Minister of National Health and Welfare):: As hon. members have read in the speech from the throne, steps are being taken by way of amendment to the Food and Drugs Act, and when they are introduced I am sure every opportunity will be given to all hon. members to discuss the subject.


Stanley Howard Knowles: If the minister cannot answer my question then I shall put a supplementary one. After the amending bill has been given second reading will it be referred to a committee of the house?


Jay Waldo Monteith: No, I cannot say that. [Later:]


Mr. D. R. Miichell (Sudbury):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of National Health and Welfare. Can the minister advise whether immediate consideration is being
given to the separation of the food and drug directorate in his department, which will result in better inspection service?


Jay Waldo Monteith: No, Mr. Speaker.



COLUMBIA RIVER


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Harold E. Winch (Vancouver Easi):: wish to direct a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs and ask him whether the commitment he made during the 24th parliament that the Columbia river treaty would be referred to the external affairs committee will be honoured.


Howard Charles Green: If I remember the commitment correctly, it was that the treaty would be referred to the external affairs committee before ratification.


EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. R. Tucker (Trinity-Conception):: wish to direct a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs. Is the minister in a position to make any announcement with regard to the negotiations to extend the present fishing limits, which are so important to our fishing industry?


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, since the end of the second conference on the law of

the sea we have carried on exploratory talks with a number of countries concerning the possibility of working out a broad agreement on a number of questions left unsettled by the two conferences. As yet I am not able to report any definite conclusions as a result of the conversations.



INDUSTRY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. W. Herridge (Kootenay West):: wish to direct a question to the Prime Minister. In view of the indication in the throne speech that legislation will be introduced to establish a national economic development board whose duties would include reporting upon economic policies and recommending projects which may require direct governmental participation, will the Prime Minister consider asking the directors of Canadian Oil Company to defer final acceptance of Shell Oil Company's takeover bid until this important matter could be examined by the proposed national economic development board to see whether it is in the best interests of Canada?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. In respect to that question, I have some difficulty in seeing in what way a matter of policy should be announced, and how this particular question would not be the responsibility of the ministry.



TRANSPORT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. T. S. Barneii (Comox-Alberni):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to address a question to the Minister of Transport. Will the minister join all of Vancouver island north of the Malahat in urging the C.P.R. not to withdraw on October 1 its passenger steamship service between Nanaimo and Vancouver, at least until some suitable alternative method of transportation has been provided?


Hon. Leon Balcer (Minister of Transport):: Mr. Speaker, this situation was brought to my notice earlier, with the request that the federal government intervene to preserve the service. On looking into the matter then it was my conclusion that there were no grounds for federal intervention. The facts seem to be that the Canadian Pacific action has been occasioned, at least in part, by the very active competition of the provincially operated ferry system. Within the last few years the province has organized a very efficient ferry service connecting Vancouver and Victoria, and
Inquiries of the Ministry has more recently acquired the Vancouver-Nanaimo service of Blackball Ferries. I would think that any question of extending the Canadian Pacific services to be cancelled would be a matter to be taken up directly with the provincial government.


Thomas Speakman Barnett: Mr. Speaker, I should like to address a question to the Minister of Transport, supplementary to the question I asked a little earlier about the C.P.R. steamship services in British Columbia. In view of his statement that the government of Canada has no jurisdiction over the continued operation of such services, will he consider introducing an amendment to the Transport Act to bring coastal steamer services under the jurisdiction of the board of transport commissioners?


Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker, I will give consideration to the hon. member's suggestion.



NEWFOUNDLAND


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. C. W. Carter (Burin-Burgeo):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to address a question to the Minister of Transport, and I apologize for not giving him notice. Is the minister aware that Canadian National Railways have announced their intention of reducing the cross-province service to three trains per week, which would bring us back to what we had about 50 years ago? Has the minister received representations from the chamber of commerce and other interested parties about this matter?


Léon Balcer: I will take this question as notice, Mr. Speaker.
(Translation):



RICHELIEU WATERWAY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Lucien Cardin (Richelieu-Vercheres):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to put a question to the Minister of Transport. Is the minister in a position to reveal the names of the three Canadian representatives who will sit on the joint international commission to consider the deepening of the Richelieu river? That commission is supposed to meet in early October.


Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker, as soon as I am in a position to reveal those names, I shall be pleased to impart that information to the house.
16	HOUSE OF
Inquiries of the Ministry
(Text) *



PUBLIC WORKS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. R. W. Prittie (Burnaby-Richmond):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Public Works. Could the minister give the house an up to date report with respect to the urgent need for a breakwater in San Juan bay on Vancouver island?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I perhaps should have referred the hon. member a little earlier to standing order 39 and the references thereto. The question and all questions of this type should be placed on the order paper.



COMBINES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Frank Howard (Skeena):: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of Justice. My question is based upon the three recent reports of the restrictive trade practices commission regarding the paper box and related products industries, with respect to which the commission feels the merger sections of the Combines Investigation Act are too weak to have any effect.
Is it the intention of the government to introduce any amendments to these merger sections of the Combines Investigation Act during this session in order to overcome this difficulty?


Hon. Donald M. Fleming (Minister of Justice):: Mr. Speaker, as has already been announced publicly, the recommendations of the restrictive trades practices commission are under study.



FISHERIES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Barry Mather (New Westminster):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Fisheries. Is it the intention of the government to introduce any legislation this session based on the recommendations of Dr. Sinclair with respect to licence limitations?


Hon. J. A. Maclean (Minister of Fisheries):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to thank the hon. member for New Westminster for giving me notice of his intention to ask this question. No decision has been taken by the government to introduce legislation on this subject.



CHALEUR BAY, N.B.    ILLEGAL FISHING BY FOREIGN TRAWLERS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. J. Robichaud (Gloucester):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to address a question to the Minister of Fisheries. Could the minister inform the house whether he has received complaints against fishing trawlers of foreign origin, and particularly of Spanish registry, operating in the waters of the gulf of St. Lawrence and at the entrance of Chaleur bay with nets below minimum standards of mesh size requirements? If so, what action has been taken to protect Canadian fishermen against such operations?


John Angus MacLean: More than one report of activities by foreign fishing vessels in this general area has been made to the department. Investigations have been carried out on each occasion and the appropriate action has been taken by my department where any action was indicated. I should be glad to report further to the hon. gentleman at a later time.
(Translation):



ENQUIRY OF THE MINISTRY

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Real Caouetle (Villeneuve):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to put a question to the Prime Minister. Is it the government's intention to substitute a program of real Canadian prosperity for the austerity program?
(Text):


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Mr. Speaker:: Order.



ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Harold Edward Winch: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Justice; I apologize for not having given him notice this morning. May I ask the Minister of Justice whether, in the light of the responsibilities and jurisdiction of his department and in the interests of the maintenance of law, order, peace and good government, there are any plans of which he could advise this house to resolve the serious situation now facing the province of British Columbia as a result of the actions and policies of the Sons of Freedom?

Hon. Donald M. Fleming (Minister of
Justice): Mr. Speaker, I anticipated there would be a question or questions on this subject and, if I may, I should like to make a statement in relation to the matter.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. Unless the minister has unanimous consent to make a statement in reply to this question, we must revert to motions.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I assure you, Mr. Speaker, it is not a statement on the orders of the day, but it will amplify the answer to the question.


Mr. Speaker:: Has the minister unanimous consent to proceed?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Donald Methuen Fleming: The attorney general of British Columbia, Hon. R. W. Bonner, has informed me by letter that on September 20 last he made a public statement asking the government of Canada to change its prison policy in relation to the Sons of Freedom Doukhobors who had been sentenced to penitentiary terms of imprisonment. His request was, in effect, that these prisoners should be dispersed among other federal institutions across Canada.
In February of this year the government of Canada was faced with the problem of arranging for the custody of large numbers of members of the Sons of Freedom sect of Doukhobors who it was expected at that time would be sentenced to penitentiary terms for acts of terrorism.
On the basis of experience gained over 30 years of dealing with Freedomites as penitentiary prisoners, it was well known to the government that they would be unlike ordinary prisoners. In the past they have failed to co-operate in any way in carrying on the normal routine of the penitentiary. They have never been prepared to take part in any work program for inmates. They have set fire to institutional buildings and equipment. They have frequently upset the prison routine by staging demonstrations and by going on hunger strikes.
In determining the course to be followed to provide custody for convicted Freedomites, the government gave full consideration to the proposal that they should be divided in groups among existing federal institutions across Canada. Because they were required to be kept under conditions of maximum security custody it was impossible to transfer them to the four medium and 12 minimum security institutions operated by the penitentiary service. There remained for consideration, therefore, only the question whether they might be divided among the six maximum security institutions operating at New Westminster, B.C.,
Inquiries of the Ministry Prince Albert, Sask., Stony Mountain, Man., Kingston, Ont., St. Vincent de Paul, P.Q., and Dorchester, N.B.
These institutions now hold a total of more than 4,000 inmates. The inmate population increases day by day by reason of committals from the courts. Conditions of serious overcrowding exist in every one of these penitentiaries and will continue to exist until 1964 when construction of four new major institutions will be completed.
It was the view of the government of Canada that to introduce large numbers of Freedomite inmates into these institutions would serve no useful purpose as far as the solution of the over-all problem of Freedomites in British Columbia is concerned. Moreover, to do so would be calculated, in the government's view, to create situations in those institutions leading to explosive trouble. If such trouble did develop the result could conceivably be danger to life and the destruction of millions of dollars worth of government property. At the least it would mean the complete disruption of the inmate training program which is being continuously developed in those institutions at substantial public expense.
Sixty-eight Freedomites are now in federal custody and more than 100 others are awaiting trial. Those who are in custody have already engaged in activities such as attempted arson, refusal to eat and refusal to conform with the routines of the institutions in which they have been confined.
The position of the federal government is clear. Until such time as new construction permits the transfer of Freedomite prisoners to other maximum security institutions where they can be safely held, they will continue to be confined in Mountain prison. This is a maximum security, fireproof institution in which the Freedomites can be kept in custody at the least expense and with the least possible danger to the Canadian public.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Speaker, could I ask a supplementary on this subject. Has the government given consideration to offering its co-operation to the government of British Columbia with a view to implementing the long term, jointly sponsored program required in order to remedy this unfortunate situation?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, the word "co-operation" was used in the statement issued by the attorney general of British Columbia to which I have referred. I think the federal government has extended full cooperation in this matter, and that course which I have outlined now is one which will be appreciated by the hon. member as the only proper course for the federal government to follow under existing circumstances.

Inquiries of the Ministry IMMIGRATION



HONG KONG


[Stage Direction]
On the orders oi the day:
Mr. Stanley Haidasz (Parkdale):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration. Has the quota of 100 refugees from communism from Hong Kong been reached, and has his department made any directions to increase this number of refugees from China and Hong Kong coming to Canada?


Hon. Richard A. Bell (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration):: Mr. Speaker, as of today 71 persons have actually arrived in Canada. That number consists of 35 individuals or family units. There are 48 additional applications involving 107 persons who have been approved for admission but have been held temporarily in Hong Kong pending completion of medical treatment for a condition which must be cleared up before the persons in question can come forward to Canada. Most, if not all, of these will be over here by the end of October. It is expected that by the middle or the end of November the 100 family units will have been completed, and at that time consideration will be given to a possible extension of the program.



PENITENTIARIES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Frank Howard: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I might direct a question to the Minister of Justice, and preface it by offering him my congratulations on obtaining his new position in the cabinet. My question is based on an article in the Ottawa Citizen of yesterday, Thursday, September 27, to the effect that guards at the federal maximum security prison in Dorchester, New Brunswick, claim that conditions among the inmates there have for some time been past the breaking point. There is further reference to the need for additional security officers. I wonder if the minister would care to comment on that.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his congratulations. I have not seen the article in question, but I shall be glad to do so and investigate its contents.



WHEAT-REPORTED REDUCTION IN SHIPMENTS TO LAKEHEAD

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Hazen Argue (Assiniboia):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture. I wonder if the minister

would care to comment on the drastic reduction in wheat exports to the lakehead during the present navigational season, and I would like to ask him whether we can expect an increase in exports during the balance of the season.


Hon. Alvin Hamilion (Minister of Agriculture):: Mr. Speaker, I am very glad to see that the hon. member for Assiniboia retains his interest in the marketing of grain. I will be glad to deal with this subject on the proper occasion if the opportunity should come up.


Hazen Robert Argue: A supplementary question. Can the minister inform the house at this time whether there is likely to be in the near future a lifting of the ban on the shipment of high grade wheat to the lakehead? This is an urgent question.


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: Yes, Mr. Speaker, this is an urgent question. At the present time we are giving preference to the movement of low grade wheat to the lake-head to meet the requirements of the domestic market of eastern Canada.



THE BUDGET


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of Finance. On what date, if we are still here, would the minister propose to introduce the budget resolutions referred to in the speech from the throne?


Hon. George C. Nowlan (Minister of Finance):: Mr. Speaker, I am neither a prophet nor the son of a prophet, so I cannot say.



AGRICULTURE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Harold Edward Winch: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture and ask him whether any action is now contemplated to stop the flood of U.S. agricultural produce into British Columbia, which is a dumping process, three weeks before the Kootenays come into production.


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: Mr. Speaker, I do not know where the hon. member has been for the last five years or he would know what this government has done about the stopping of any dumping.


Harold Edward Winch: May I say that my hon. triend knows where I have been. I have just returned from the Okanagan and the Kootenays, where this problem exists.



SPEECH FROM THE THRONE


[Stage Direction]
The house proceeded to the consideration of the speech delivered by His Excellency the Governor General at the opening of the session.
Mr. Gordon Chaplin (Waterloo South):: Mr. Speaker, I would at this time like to extend to you my very warm congratulations on your appointment to high office. I believe that anyone who was in this house yesterday and saw you will agree that you will serve with great distinction, and I hope that in this capacity you may serve for many, many years to come.
Mr. Speaker, I am conscious of the very great honour that has been given me here today by the Prime Minister (Mr. Diefen-baker) in asking me to move the adoption of the speech from the throne. I feel very diffident, as I am sure any new member would when one considers the number of great Canadians who over the years have taken their place in this chamber. It also gives me a great sense of pride when I recall that my late father spent many years in this house as the then member for Lincoln. In those days it would never have occurred to me that I would have either the honour or the opportunity of representing in this assembly another great and historic constituency. It gives me a very warm and personal pleasure to see here in his place today the hon. member for Dufferin-Simcoe (Mr. Rowe). He served in this house with my father, and to the best of my knowledge he is the only remaining link with that generation.
Mr. Speaker, it would seem appropriate that, with many new members in the house, I should perhaps give some description of the constituency that I have the honour to represent. Waterloo South, which with its counterpart of Waterloo North makes up the whole of Waterloo county, is situated in the middle of southwestern Ontario, and comprises rich agricultural lands, a great dairy industry, the raising of beef and cattle, grain, vegetables, fruits and extensive mixed farming. Coupled with this is a great industrial complex. In the north, in Kitchener and Waterloo, there are great rubber and tire plants, furniture factories, distilleries, television and appliance factories, an electronics industry and many others. Besides, it is a centre for great insurance and financial institutions.
The Address-Mr. Chaplin
Again, in Waterloo South, in the centres of Galt, Preston, and Hespeler, there is a great variety of industry ranging from heavy steel fabrication through textiles, plastics, furniture, electrical devices and so on. I merely mention this, Mr. Speaker, in order to illustrate the fact that we have a great and progressive farming community and a great and expanding industrial area which employ and provide a livelihood for thousands of our population. We have what I would call a well balanced economy. We enjoy these advantages. We are, of course aware of the problems that beset both agriculture and industry.
As to the origin of the people in this area, in the north they are largely German or Pennsylvania Dutch, and in the south around Galt and Ayr they are predominantly Scottish.
To those members here of Scottish ancestry I might say that only recently a very charming young lady from Galt, in the person of Miss Ann Gall, won the championship at the Scottish dancing festival in Edinburgh. I am told that this is the first time that anyone outside of Scotland has won such an honour. You can see, Mr. Speaker, that we have a very progressive community and one that still treasures its history and traditions.
The legislation that has been proposed in the speech from the throne must be considered in relation to what this government has already accomplished, the record this government has established, and the implementation of its undertakings to the people of this country. At this time I should like to deal with agriculture, not only because of its major importance to the country and to my community, but because one of the great problems of certain phases of agriculture has been the generation of huge surpluses. The taxpayer of this country is very conscious of this situation, particularly if he is called upon to support these surpluses by huge subsidies.
One of the long term plans of the Department of Agriculture contemplates encouraging some of the farmers, particularly dairy farmers, to change to the production of beef cattle. In this country today there is a great demand for beef cattle. In the next 12 years we shall have to increase our beef cattle population by seven million head. This is a profitable business, but it presents certain problems, particularly to those engaged in dairy farming. The dairy farmer has been accustomed to selling his milk daily and getting returns on a weekly basis or some regular one. A difficulty of financing is presented when he gets a return only once a year at a time when he sells his beef cattle.
This whole problem ties in with the long term objectives of A.R.D.A., the Agricultural Rehabilitation and Development Act, and contemplates making better use of marginal lands
20	HOUSE OF
The Address-Mr. Chaplin so that the farmer will get a better return. Among other things this use could include permanent pasture and, when desirable, it could be a community or co-operative pasture. By such use it is hoped that good arable land will be released from pasture and be available for the raising of feed grain in eastern Canada. It is also expected that the expansion of beef cattle production in western Canada will provide an increasing market for western feed grains. This, to me, is a sound program designed to guide farmers and to encourage them into long term profitable production so as to reduce and to try to eliminate certain dairy products surpluses and to get these subsidies off the backs of our taxpayers.
I am glad to note in the speech from the throne that there will be certain changes in the Farm Credit Act which I believe will be helpful in this regard. Also, I feel it would be desirable to have some further degree of liberalization in the Farm Improvement Loans Act. As the situation is now, the time of repayment of a loan is related to the size of the loan itself. In other words, a farmer borrowing say $7,500 must repay the loan in five years while a farmer borrowing $1,000 to $2,000 has only a year or a year and a half in which to repay it. I would think this requirement could work a hardship on a small farmer trying to establish a basic herd of beef cattle. I should think that the time of repayment of the loan should be related to the purpose of the loan. I hope the government will be able to give some consideration to this matter.
There is another aspect of the department which I think is of great interest and importance, namely the extent and the effectiveness of their research. In an attempt to widen the domestic and export market for Canadian foodstuffs great progress has been made in the development of certain processed foods. A good example of this progress is with regard to instant mashed potatoes. These processes are now being extended to other products such as turnips and to combinations of potatoes and meat, potatoes and fish, potatoes and cheese, and potatoes and eggs. The minister has reasoned that if these foods could be prepared in such a way that they could be stored in the hot tropical countries without refrigeration, could be made palatable and nutritious, could be packaged perhaps as a single meal and could be sold at a low price, this accomplishment would be a novel and at the same time realistic and distinctly Canadian approach to the problem of extending our markets and perhaps also in some cases to the problems of surpluses and subsidies. This is exactly what they appear to have accomplished. I say "appear to have


accomplished" because I have been a manufacturer long enough to know that many items which have bright promise in the development field do not always materialize. In this case, however, matters have advanced to a point where the Canadian food industry, the processors and suppliers have been brought into the picture and an export organization has been set up in order to develop and promote these and other Canadian foodstuffs in the export markets of the world. To me this is a most exciting concept. I think it is perhaps one of the most exciting things happening in agriculture today. This is enterprise, and I believe in enterprise regardless of where it originates. If ultimately this effort is successful, it will expand our markets and will help to keep surpluses down in many of our agricultural products. It is conceivable that it will even help us in meeting our obligations to the emerging nations of Africa and to the old nations of Asia which have always been endemic with starvation and famine.
Mr. Speaker, we have a minister who knows his job thoroughly. He is a man of imagination and he has the ability to turn that imagination to practical purposes. Perhaps, above all, however, this demonstrates the necessity of co-operation between government, suppliers and processors and it points out to us the way of co-operation which we must have in this country if we are to survive under the economic conditions that face us today.
I am glad to note that the speech from the throne gives recognition to the problem of automation in industry, and I should like to make a few remarks concerning the Department of Labour. When one thinks of labour one also thinks in terms of employment. Whereas our employment situation has been bettered very substantially over the last few months, and I believe is now at an all time peak, nevertheless we have in this country a residue of unemployed that is cause for concern to anybody who understands or appreciates the tragedy of a jobless person.
There are three main causes of unemployment in Canada. One of them, of course, is our climate which makes certain types of work difficult in the wintertime and contributes to unemployment on a seasonal basis. Important steps have been taken in this direction and the municipal winter works incentive program for the coming winter has been announced. It seems evident that many municipalities are taking advantage of this program, and the program itself will likely be expanded this year.
That this particular program has been most effective and useful I think goes without saying. The minister is to be congratulated for his vigour and foresight in pursuing this

program. I believe it has made a great contribution in levelling out unemployment and minimizing the winter peaks that we have had in the past. There are two other major contributing factors to unemployment in this country and one of them is related to our trade policies. We must stimulate industry in this country. We must try to create conditions that will encourage Canadian industry to manufacture here many of the things that we are importing into this country.
I intend to come back again to the question of trade but there is another factor relating to unemployment and that is the question of automation. Automation means many things to many persons. However, it is generally recognized that it contemplates the use of improved and usually automatic machinery and improved techniques to reduce the unit cost of a given article. In a general way it also means that those employed require higher skills and training, and the ones that usually suffer in any contraction of employment are the unskilled.
This situation, coupled with the expanding school population and the added thousands of young people who are now starting to join our work force, is presenting the department and the government with a very real problem. However, the vocational training program which was inaugurated by the government in conjunction and co-operation with the provinces is now beginning to demonstrate its great possibilities. There are those who have suggested that this has been done altogether too quickly and that buildings alone will not answer the problem. This is undoubtedly true to a degree and the need for such a program should perhaps have been foreseen many years ago. It should have been foreseen and acted upon by the previous administration. Nevertheless great progress is being made and I am convinced that over the years this will benefit those coming out of our schools and will give an opportunity to increase and upgrade the skills of those who are at present in our labour force and face the possibility of unemployment.
To mention again the problems arising out of automation, the settlement which was recently made between the unions and the railways in this country caught my eye. I do not propose to make any comment on the economic aspects of this settlement, but I do suggest that the provisions that have been made for taking care of employees who are likely to be released because of improved efficiency in operation and the retraining of employees where this is possible could well recommend themselves to other industries under similar conditions.
Although the minister did not enter directly into this matter, nevertheless I feel that these
The Address-Mr. Chaplin particular terms with respect to this settlement would express his views, his feelings and, I believe, his philosophy. Those who know the minister know that he is one with an innate sense of fairness, one who inspires confidence and one who gives leadership toward co-operation.
One of the most persistent problems that has plagued this country over the years, Mr. Speaker, has been our huge and chronic adverse balance of payments with the United States, of which our imbalance of trade makes up a major portion. This problem is directly related to and is a major contributing factor in our foreign exchange crisis that was precipitated and triggered last June. The huge amount of excessive imports into this country, made up largely of fully manufactured consumer goods, has been paid for by the importation or bringing in of foreign capital.
I do not want to be misunderstood, Mr. Speaker. I am not opposed to foreign capital investing in this country, in fact quite the opposite; but it is surely one thing to employ foreign capital to provide capital goods and productive machinery which will earn their keep by future production and quite another thing to obtain foreign capital to enable this country to use up imported consumer goods when this capital has to be paid for from some other source at some future time.
In my view our position in this country can readily be likened to that of an improvident farmer who sells the bottom five acres of his land to take a trip to California or Florida. This is exactly what we have been doing in this country. This is the way we have been living. We have been squandering and dissipating our assets to take care of our current living.
In 1961 our importation of consumer goods was close to $2 billion. A very substantial portion of this was fully manufactured goods that could be made in this country. Does this not surely suggest something to us? Surely it suggests that we must make every effort to encourage the further industrialization of our country because, important as primary industry is, important as our great wealth of raw materials will remain, we simply cannot look to that source in the future for the expansion that must take place.
Canada and other free nations contribute and must continue to contribute assistance to underdeveloped countries. This assistance is in the form of technical aid, money to provide modern equipment and the tools of industry, training, etc. When these measures of assistance are given, the one opportunity for their utilization in underdeveloped countries lies, first, in the field of development of their own

The Address-Mr. Chaplin primary products. This results in increasing world competition in the field of raw materials and today this is seriously affecting Canada's position as a world supplier.
There are those theorists, Mr. Speaker, who say that we should specialize in the manufacture of those things in which we are most competent. Just what that embraces I do not know. But I do know that there are many, many materials today that can be reproduced synthetically. With proper equipment and training, plastic plants could operate in any country in the world. Here is another area where new products and new materials can and do compete with traditional materials. As I see it, one important raw material that we must provide in the future is managerial excellence in the form of chemists, engineers, technicians and skilled personnel, along with the development of new and modern techniques.
It is only through a sound, strong and prosperous secondary industry that we are going to be able to do this. If we do not do so, we will fall far and we will fall fast before the onslaught of European and Asiatic competition, along with that of the United States which we have with us always.
What has the government done to encourage the growth and expansion of industry in this country? There has been, of course, the devaluation of the dollar and the very beneficial effects from this action are now becoming very apparent. But I want to speak at this time more specifically of the activities of the Department of Trade and Commerce. The minister of this department has done an outstanding job. He has given imaginative leadership to the department. Their morale is high and they are probably the finest foreign service of this kind in the world today. This is attested to by every businessman who has had anything to do with them.
There has been nothing static about this department, and that the many new and novel approaches that have been taken to promote the sale of Canadian products have been sound and realistic can also be attested to by some 5,600 businessmen and manufacturers who have attended the various trade conferences held by the minister throughout the country.
Now, the department is proposing to bring buyers from foreign countries to see what Canada has to offer. This has created some editorial comment and some criticism. Admittedly, this approach might not appear orthodox in relation to the action and the function of this department in the past, but I do not look upon this as socialism or undue bureaucratic interference with business any more than I look upon the establishment of trade fairs as being socialistic or bureaucratic.


Actually, Mr. Speaker, I can see a great advantage to bringing potential customers to this country to see the manufacturing facilities we possess. It is not anticipated that the Department of Trade and Commerce is going to take over foreign sales by Canadian businessmen. Manufacturers, of course, still have to go out and sell their individual products. I look upon this as intelligent co-operation on the part of the department with manufacturers to try to strengthen and preserve our trading position in world markets which is being challenged by every other aggressive country in the world today.
Manufacturers in this country generally have responded enthusiastically to the leadership that has been given by the minister. In passing, Mr. Speaker, I should like to say that I sometimes get a little tired of listening to the pontificating of certain editorial writers who reiterate again and again that Canadian manufacturers are lazy, unimaginative, inefficient and lack sales initiative. In my experience, this just is not a fact. There may, of course, be inefficient businesses. I suppose that there are. But by and large, Canadian industry has had to be efficient to live. In my own experience, I have had the heads of large United States manufacturing companies visit our plant, and they have been amazed at the versatility and ingenuity we have had to use in Canada to meet competition.
There are many other facets of this department with which I have not time to deal today, but I do want to mention one in the domestic field. Along with the Department of Labour, they were instrumental in setting up the productivity council. This, I feel, was one of the most important things we have attempted in this country. I was greatly distressed when one of the very prominent labour leaders in this country today saw fit to resign. One of the significant features of the recovery of European countries after the war was the determination of all elements of the population to again get on their feet. It was the determined co-operation of government, labour and industry that primarily led to the spectacular recovery of these countries even prior to the advent of the common market. We have a lot to learn from this because it is these people with whom we are going to have to compete.
We in this country must increase our productivity and we must reduce our costs. With some fear of over-simplification, Mr. Speaker, I would say that a manufacturer's cost is largely made up of raw materials which he buys, of the cost of labour to convert those raw materials into whatever his product may be and, in this day and age, it also includes the tremendous burden of taxation that has been placed upon industry by all levels of

government. I say we must increase our productivity; but if the fruits of increased productivity go only to one source, if they go only to labour, then our competitive position will be no better than it is now. If they go only to management or if governments increase their taxation of industry, then our position will be just the same or even worse. We could all benefit from increased productivity but the one who should benefit most is seldom mentioned. I refer to the consumer. A major objective of increased productivity should be not only to get our costs down but to get our prices down. If we can do that at home and abroad, we can also free our minds from these lingering, malignant fears of foreign competition. However, I can only see this being accomplished as a national objective.
In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, I would say that there are many people who seem to feel that the results of this last election were disastrous inasmuch as no party was given a majority. I do not feel this is necessarily the case. However, I do feel this presents a great challenge to every individual member. This will cause members of this house to think most soberly of national interest, of Canadian interest. I believe that the people of this country are going to expect from their members of parliament the same discipline, the same spirit of co-operation that Canadians generally are going to be called upon to exercise in ensuing years. I feel, Mr. Speaker, that is the challenge that faces every member here today.
I should like to move, seconded by the hon. member for Nicolet-Yamaska (Mr. Vincent):
That the following address be presented to His Excellency the Governor General of Canada:
To His Excellency Major General George P. Vanier, Companion of the Distinguished Service Order, upon whom has been conferred the Military Cross and the Canadian Forces' Decoration, Governor General and Commander-in-Chief of Canada.
May it please Your Excellency:
We, Her Majesty's most loyal and dutiful subjects, the House of Commons of Canada, in parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our humble thanks to Your Excellency for the gracious speech which Your Excellency has addressed to both houses of parliament.
(Translation):


Mr. Clement Vincent (Nicolet-Yamaska):: Mr. Speaker, it is with considerable emotion and pride that I utter my first words in this illustrious assembly-an assembly composed of men and women whose mission is to represent the legitimate aspirations of the Canadian people.
The right hon. Prime Minister having done me the honour of asking me to second the address in reply to the speech from the throne, read by His Excellency the Governor
The Address-Mr. Vincent General, the representative of our Gracious Majesty, obliges me to tell you that it is rather the worthy people of my county who deserve this token of esteem on the part of the Prime Minister. It is not the first time he has honoured our fine people. We note with pride that, in 1957, he invited one of our citizens to join his cabinet and, later, recommended his appointment as Lieutenant Governor of the province of Quebec. I take pleasure in paying tribute to my illustrious predecessor, the Hon. Paul Comtois, who is a credit to the agricultural population of the entire province and of the county in particular, by being the first farmer to accede to this high position in my province.
Now, please allow me to salute the men and women of my beautiful county of Nicolet-Yamaska and to state publicly that as long as they have faith in me I shall endeavour to serve them to the best of my ability with the humble talents Divine Providence was kind enough to bestow on me. Is there any need to reaffirm before this house the freedom of expression I have always enjoyed and which I propose to retain in the ranks of this great party which, thanks to its present leader, gave the Canadian people the bill of rights.
I now quote the words spoken by the right hon. Prime Minister during the debates in the House of Commons on July 1, 1961:
I am a Canadian, a free Canadian, free to speak without fear, free to worship God in my own way; free to uphold what I believe is right, free to oppose what I believe is wrong, free to choose those who shall govern my country. This heritage of freedom I pledge to uphold for myself and all mankind.
Those words, as I said, prompted me to serve in federal politics, my country, Canada, my province, Quebec, and my county of Nicolet-Yamaska.
(Text):
I now have the opportunity to congratulate the hon. member for Waterloo South (Mr. Chaplin) on his remarkable speech. All of us are certain that the experience he had in the Ontario legislature, and in public affairs generally, will give him a great advantage in serving the country in the way his father did when an hon. member of this house and a former minister of trade and commerce. The men and women in his constituency must be proud of him today.
(Translation) :
Mr. Speaker, when you were chosen as the Speaker of this house, the choice was unanimously accepted. Those of us who are from Quebec feel honoured that one of our own people-who is now a citizen of western Canada-should accede to this eminent position. We know your talents and personal qualifications will make you a Speaker who will be listened to and admired by all.

The Address-Mr. Vincent
country, from British Columbia to Newfoundland, people who in addition to speaking their mother tongue could also make themselves understood in the other official language of this country. What a wonderful asset this would be to the social and cultural strength of Canada.
As a newcomer to this house may I be permitted the candour of stating that I feel quite impressed by being surrounded by outstanding parliamentarians, men of great wisdom and experience, who are most numerous on this side of the chamber, of course-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Clément Vincent: -but who are also found on the other side.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Clément Vincent: Mr. Speaker, permit me to say a word about the commonwealth conference which has just taken place in London. Despite some slanted dispatches carried in a few newspapers, it can truly be said that our Prime Minister (Mr. Diefenbaker) made out a perfect case there for the necessity of safeguarding the economic interests of the commonwealth as a whole, if and when Great Britain enters the common market. This is the sound opinion of impartial observers. The Canadian people know that he had the courage to follow a Canada-first policy.
Mr. Speaker, I ask you, in the name of the people of Canada: who else could speak for the agriculture industry of this country? Who else could speak, or would speak for its dairy and cheese industry, for the great wheat producing Canadian west? Who else could speak-would speak-for our lumber industry, our pulp and paper industry, our mines and all our various secondary industries? Every Canadian, every member of every party in this house, knows that our Prime Minister spoke for Canada in his own great capacity, defending the greatness of Canada's industrial economy.
(Translation):
As a newly elected member of parliament, Mr. Speaker, I would now like to pay tribute to my party for the efforts it has made since June 21, 1957, for restoring the fiscal structure of Canada according to the truest spirit of the 1867 pact.
When the Conservatives came to power more than five years ago, the federal-provincial fiscal relations were in pretty bad shape.
The conference of the 11 governments, held in July 1956, created a distressing impression, even on the Liberal premiers.
Following the meeting, the prime minister of Manitoba, Mr. Campbell, made this statement on behalf of his province:


Manitoba has been disappointed to see that so very little attention had been paid to the real financial needs which the provinces will face in the next few years.
Another Liberal premier, Mr. Matheson of Prince Edward Island, had also complained of his own party's doings in Ottawa. On the
day following the July conference, he stated:
The new distribution of funds collected takes no account of the fiscal needs of the provinces or their fiscal possibilities.
Mr. Manning, Social Credit premier of Alberta, expressed his feelings with as much
bitterness as his Liberal colleagues from the other provinces. He said:
The Liberal government kept for itself the largest and the most profitable areas of the tax fields. It has not recognized the financial needs of neither the provinces nor the municipalities.
The right hon. Prime Minister lost no time in correcting the errors admitted by the Liberals themselves. In November 1957, he called the first of a series of federal-provincial conferences to examine fully the claims of the provinces. Early in 1958 the government moved the adoption of two important pieces of legislation: One involved raising from 10 per cent to 13 per cent the share in income tax revenues going to the provinces, the other concerned adjustment grants to the Atlantic provinces. The generosity of the Conservative government meant, for the provinces as a whole, an additional revenue of $90 million a year.
And so, the present Minister of Justice (Mr. Fleming) was able to say in the house at the
beginning of last year:
The policy of equalization under which the federal government assists provinces faced with special needs has been applied more widely by this government than at any time in the past.
Figures show this most emphatically. Within five years, from 1956 to 1961, the federal treasury doubled its payments to the provinces. The provinces received less than $690 million in 1956; last year they received at least $1J billion.
The right hon. Prime Minister, however, felt that the provinces should get more. So, he obtained that the Federal-Provincial TaxSharing Arrangements Act, 1956, be radically changed. And it is under his guidance that the new act, which today governs the fiscal arrangements between Ottawa and the provinces, came into being on April 1 of this year.
In order to be fair to the interested parties, he called half a dozen preliminary meetings. Apart from the sittings of the standing committee of officials, two conferences of finance ministers and, in 1960, two general meetings of the premiers with the Prime Minister of Canada have been held.

At those various stages, the Conservative government was primarily concerned with the sovereignty and the autonomy of the provinces, as well as with the responsibility they assume under the constitution.
The second general meeting postponed on October 28, 1960 resumed its deliberations February 23, 1961.
It gave a final form to a tax sharing arrangement formula which shapes up into a sort of triangle made up by the equalization principle, the stabilization principle and that of the growth factor. The letter sent by the Prime Minister of Canada to the premiers of the provinces on January 30, 1961, foretold of such an agreement.
The Conservative government thus repudiated the infamous tax rental system which resulted in centralization. Under that system, the provinces were mere vassals receiving annually a meagre allowance from their lord in Ottawa.
(Text):
In this connection may I quote a speech by the former minister of finance now Minister of Justice (Mr. Fleming) to the chamber of commerce of Rosthern, Saskatchewan, on November 7, 1961. He said on that occasion:
It became increasingly evident that the tax rental system was unsound. It placed on the federal government the whole responsibility for levying the additional taxes to support large increases in provincial expenditures. The provincial governments assumed no responsibility, politically or fiscally, for imposing the rental taxes on which they depended for revenues nor had they the freedom to amend the rates of these taxes in line with their current needs. Such a system was clearly destructive of provincial responsibility and initiative, and incompatible with the constitution which grants equal access by the federal and provincial governments to the direct tax fields.
(Translation):


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I regret to interrupt the hon. member but his time is up.


Some hon. Members:: Continue.


Mr. Speaker:: Has the hon. member the unanimous consent of the house to complete his speech?


Some hon. Members:: Continue.


Clément Vincent: Under the new act adopted by parliament last year, at the instance of the Conservative government, taxation revenue is divided in such a way as to place Canadians of all provinces on an equal footing.
The Address-Mr. Vincent
The situation is now the following:
(1) The provinces collect their own personal taxes and corporation income taxes. (2) The rate of the federal tax on the income of individuals is gradually reduced in order that, little by little, this field may be left to the provinces.
The rate concerning the tax on the income of individuals is set at 16 per cent the first year the act comes into force. It will increase by 1 per cent in each of the four following years. By 1966, the federal government will thus have given up 20 per cent of that field.
(3)	The rate of the federal tax on the income of corporations has been reduced by 9 per cent.
(4)	In the case of estate taxes, Ottawa pays 50 per cent of the revenue derived from this source in those provinces that do not levy succession duties and continues to reduce the federal tax by 50 per cent in the provinces that levy their own succession duties.
Not only did the Conservative government restore to the provinces their power to levy their own taxes, it also extended the application of the equalization principle, by a twofold amendment.
First, the equalization formula includes not only the product of the three current taxes determined by the extent of federal withdrawal, but includes also half the mobile triennial average of gross natural resources revenues.
Second, the equalization formula makes use of the national per capita average of the standard tax revenue and half the natural resources revenue instead of the per capita average for the two wealthiest provinces.
Mr. Speaker, the whole Canadian people have noted with satisfaction that most of the 35 measures outlined in the speech from the throne are directed to step up the development of our economy: establishment of a national economic development board, creation of one million new jobs over the next five years, tax incentive for corporations undertaking increased expenditures on scientific research, increase of export credits, establishment of an Atlantic development board, installation of storage facilities for feed grain, enlargement of the funds of the Farm Credit Corporation, establishment of a national power grid. There we have, Mr. Speaker, an already lengthy but very incomplete list of the measures the present government intends to introduce so that each class of our people may share to a larger extent in the national prosperity.

The Address-Mr. Vincent For us, in Quebec, the decidedly nationalistic aspect of the speech from the throne, underlined by statements concerning the repatriation of the constitution, the selection of a national flag and other national symbols, indicates to those observers who are fair-minded that the Conservative administration is realistically endeavouring to give our country outward signs of its political maturity, the creation of such signs or symbols having been avoided from 1935 to 1957.
Mr. Speaker, for all those reasons and many others, it is with a feeling of pride that I second the address in reply to the speech from the throne.
(Text) :
On motion of Mr. Pearson the debate was adjourned.
On motion of Mr. Diefenbaker the house adjourned at 4.17 p.m.

Monday, Ociober 1, 1962