1962-10-24

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. Howard: 1.	Did any members of the cabinet incur any travelling expenses between April 1, 1962, and June 30, 1962, inclusive?
2.	If so, for each member of cabinet, what was, for each day, the amount of expenses incurred, the point or place travelled to, and the purpose of the visit?
Answer by: Mr. Halpenny:
1.	Yes.
2.	The information available does not permit an answer to be given to this part of the question.


TRUCKING FIRMS OWNED BY C.N.R.
Mr. Fisher: 1.	What is the situation at the present time on the ownership or share of ownership that the C.N.R. possesses in the various trucking companies that it has acquired in the last three years?
2.	How much money has the C.N.R. paid out for each company up to this time?
3.	What portion does this total represent of the moneys set aside by the C.N.R. for these purposes?
4.	Which of these acquired trucking companies (if any) made a profit in the last year of financial record, and in each case, what was disposal of such profit?
5.	By company, what number of trucks were acquired, and how many are in operation at the present time?
Answer by: Mr. McBain:
The management of Canadian National Railways advise as follows:
1.	100 per cent share ownership in the
following:	Sydney Transfer and Storage
Limited, Eastern Transport Limited, Toronto-Peterborough Transport Limited, Hoar Transport Limited, East-West Transport Limited, Empire Freightways Limited, Wacos Holdings Limited, Montalta Holdings Limited. 49 per cent Midland Superior Express Limited. Agreement to purchase 100 per cent shares of Husband Transport Limited.
2,	3 and 4. Information concerning these questions with respect to the last year of financial record may be found on pages 10 and 12 of the Canadian National Railways annual report for 1961.
5. For all companies the number of units at acquisition-817; the number of units in operation as at August 31, 1962-949.


WAR DISABILITY PENSIONS
Mr. Matheson: 1.	What is the comparative value of a 100 per cent disability pension each year since 1945? (taking into account changes in rates of pension, value of money, cost of living).
2.	How many war disability pensions were administered by the Canadian pension commission in 1956 and in 1961, and what was (a) the average annual payment with respect to such pensions in each year (b) the total payout to all veterans or their dependants in each year?
3.	What is the total cost to Canada of the Department of Veterans Affairs in 1956 and in 1961?
Answer by: Mr. Churchill:
Calendar
Year
Canadian Pension Commission 100 Per Cent
Pension Rates	Consumer
in Current Dollars	Price Index
Married	(1949=100)
Single	Plus 2
Children
100 Per Cent Pension Rates in 1949 Dollars
Married Single	Plus 2
Children

1945	
900	1,5241946	
900	1,5241947	
900	1,5241948	
1,128	1,9081949	
1,128	1,908$	$75.0	1,200	2,03277.5	1,161	1,96684.8	1,061	1,79797.0	1,163	1,967100.0	1,128	1,908
Questions
1.	(Continued.)	Canadian Pension Commission
Calendar
Year
100 Per Cent
Pension Rates	Consumer
in Current Dollars	Price Index
Married	(1949=100)
Single	Plus 2
Children
100 Per Cent Pension Rates in 1949 Dollars
Married Single	Plus 2
Children
$	$	$	$1950 	
1,128	1,908	102.9	1,096	1,8541951 	
1,128	1,908	113.7	992	1,6781952 	
1,500	2,460	116.5	1,288	2,1121953 	
1,500	2,460	115.5	1,299	2,1301954 	
1,500	2,460	116.2	1,291	2,1171955 	
1,500	2,460	116.4	1,289	2,1131956 	
1,500	2,460	118.1	1,270	2,0831957 	
1,800	2,820	121.9	1,477	2,3131958 	
1,800	2,820	125.1	1,439	2,2541959 	
1,800	2,820	126.5	1,423	2,2291960 	
1,800	2,820	128.0	1,406	2,2031961 	
2,160	3,444	129.2	1,672	2,6662.	Canadian Pension CommissionNumber ol disability pensions	
160,164(a)	Average annual pension payment	
$595.46(b)	Total pension payments under the Pension Act	
$130,806,662
153,897

3.	The total cost of the Department of Veterans Affairs and the Canadian pension commission and the war veterans allowance board was as follows:
Fiscal Year
Statutory benefits	 $187,490,789
Administration	 60,968,965
Loans, investments and	advances	 20,494,645
Fiscal Year 1960-61 $221,833,528 70,464,168 30,926,947
Total


$268,954,399 $323,224,643 C.N.R. PASSENGER TRAFFIC
Mr. Mather: Is the effort, being made by the Canadian National Railways, to regain passenger traffic proving at all successful and (a) if not, does the railway plan to continue the effort (b) if so, why is passenger train service, such as trains 3 and 4 between Saskatoon and Vancouver, being discontinued?
Answer by: Mr. McBain:
The management of Canadian National Railways advise as follows:
It is the objective of the company to compete vigorously for passenger business in those areas where facilities and size of the travel market provide a reasonable expectation that the company can realize a profit by so doing, and to withdraw from those services that in spite of reasonable efforts do not produce sufficient revenues to offset their operating costs and have no reasonable prospect of doing so.

With reference to part (b) of the question certain adjustments are being made in train services all across the system in keeping with the travel demand throughout the winter season. These changes become effective with the fall timetable change October 28, 1962 (this is normal practice throughout the railway industry generally).


ADMISSION OF FIANCEES OR RELATIVES OF CHINESE IN CANADA
Mr. Wahn: 1.	Does the Department of Citizenship and Immigration refuse or delay applications made by Canadian citizens of Chinese origin to bring their fiancees, wives, or other relatives to Canada as sponsored immigrants in cases where the department is not satisfied as to the true identity of such Canadian citizens or as to the legality of their original entry into Canada?
2.	Does the department refuse or delay applications made by persons of Chinese origin eligible for entry to Canada under section 31(a) of the

immigration regulations in cases where such persons are related to Canadian citizens or residents of Canada of whose identity or of the legality of whose entry to Canada the department has some doubt?
Answer by: Mr. McGee:
1.	In all cases involving an application to bring a sponsored immigrant to Canada the bona tides of the applicant, his true identity, and the true identity and relationship to the applicant of the prospective immigrant must be satisfactorily established before a determination can be made of the admissibility of the proposed immigrant under the regulations. If the identity of the sponsor is in doubt, it follows that his true relationship to the proposed immigrant cannot be established until those doubts are removed. Instances have arisen in which it has been established that the applicant has entered Canada and later obtained a Canadian citizenship certificate under a false identity. It is not possible for such applicants to sponsor the admission of others without first clearing up their own identity.
2.	Immigrants admitted under section 31(a) of the immigration regulations may be sponsored or unsponsored. With respect to those sponsored under the provisions of section 31(a) (iv) the answer is as in (1) above.
The existence of relatives in Canada whose identity may be in doubt would not prejudice the application of an unsponsored immigrant applying under section 31(a) (i), (ii) or (iii), who could satisfactorily establish his own identity and meet the other requirements of the Immigration Act and regulations.


*GARNEAU-MONTREAL TRAIN SERVICE
Mr. Matte: Has the Canadian National Railway Company reconsidered its decision to suspend its service (trains 109-110 and 119-120), for Garneau-Montreal, and will an equally good alternative be provided for people of northern Mauricie if the said service is suspended at the end of this month?


Mr. McBain:: The management of Canadian National Railways advise as follows:
A thorough examination has been made of all aspects of the situation, and patrons making use of passenger service to and from the northern Mauricie area will not be affected by the cessation of the trains referred to.


SECURITY INSTITUTIONS
Mr. Matheson: What was the average cost of maintaining one inmate during the year 1961 in (a) federal institutions of all types (b) maximum security institutions (c) medium security institutions (d) minimum security institutions (e) farm and work camps?
Answer by: Mr. Bell (Saint John-Albert):
The average cost of maintaining one inmate in 1961-62 was: (a) federal institutions of all
27507-3-56J
Questions
types: $2,563.72; (b) maximum security institutions: $2,377.49; (c) medium security institutions: $3,061.92; (d) minimum security institutions:	$2,316.21;	(e) work camps:

N.B. (a) Farm camps are operated as part of the main institution and operating costs are not kept separately, (b) None of the work camps reached anything approaching its maximum population during 1961-62 and the cost per inmate is higher than it will be when the camps have their full complement of inmates.


DEVELOPMENT OF NATURAL RESOURCES
Mr. Caouetie: In order to promote the economic growth of Canada and to develop as quickly as possible the natural resources of this country, what steps does the government intend to take?
Answer by: Mr. Diefenbaker:
Certain measures to promote ever increasing economic growth in Canada during the present session of parliament were outlined in the throne speech. Further measures will be referred to in the budget.


SEWAGE DISPOSAL PLANTS
Mr. Addison: Is it the intention of the government to continue the 25 per cent forgiveness of loans under the C.M.H.C. with regard to sewerage disposal plants after March 31, 1963, and, if so, when will this be announced?
Answer by: Mr. Fulton:
The question deals with a matter of policy and as was said in the House of Commons on October 10, 1962, as can be found at p. 369 of the unrevised edition of Hansard, "I have asked Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation to study... the general question of the further application of the sewage disposal plan". When a decision will have been reached, the house will be advised in the usual way.


SENNETERRE, QUE.  EMPLOYMENT OFFICE
Mr. Laprise: 1.	Has the Department of Labour been asked to open an employment office at Senneterre and, if so, on what date?
2.	Has the department reached a decision and, if so, what decision?
Answer by: Mr. Hales:
1.	Yes. Representations were received on March 9 and June 4 for the opening of an office of the unemployment insurance commission in Senneterre, P.Q.
2.	Yes. It was considered not advisable to open such an office in Senneterre.

Questions


FRESHWATER, NFLD. POST OFFICE
Mr. Cashin: Are plans and specifications of the Freshwater post office ready and, if so, when is the construction scheduled to begin?
Answer by: Mr. McCleave:
Plans and specifications for the Freshwater post office are complete. Tenders have been received and are being reviewed and providing they are in order a contract award will be made shortly for the early commencement of this project.


SKIING IN ATLANTIC PROVINCES NATIONAL PARKS
Mr. Maclnnis: 1. What steps has the government taken to add skiing to the present facilities of any of the national parks in the Atlantic provinces?
2.	Has any report been received on the feasibility of ski runs in the Atlantic provinces national parks?
3.	Has the government received any representation since January 1, 1962, from any person or groups relating to this matter and, if so, when, from whom, and to what general effect?
Answer by: Mr. Dinsdale:
1 and 2. In the fall of 1961, arrangements were made for a ski expert, Mr. Franz Baier, to undertake a technical survey of the hills in Fundy and Cape Breton Highlands national parks to determine their potential for ski purposes.
Reports have been received from Mr. Baier on the feasibility of ski developments in these two national parks. His technical assessment covered four sites in Cape Breton Highlands national park as well as a number of sites outside the boundaries of the park in the bay St. Lawrence area. The sites within the park are located at Clyburn brook, McIntosh brook, north Aspy and south Mountain. Only the north Aspy and south Mountain sites were considered to be technically suited. In the light of such other factors as long range development planning, economic feasibility and park concepts, it was decided that South Mountain was the only site that could be considered for development.
The technical report on Fundy national park indicated that there were no sites in the park that could be developed into good public and recreational skiing areas. There were no hills or slopes with northern exposure that had the required length, degree of slope or smooth average ground surface. Nevertheless, the report mentioned the possibility that a week end skiing site might be developed at Alcorn hill but indicated that snow conditions are normally quite unreliable. The report also stated that two areas outside the park-Albert and the Elgin and South branch -had far greater potential for development.
3.	During January and February of this year I received representations from several members of this house, including the hon.

member for Saint John-Albert, the hon. member for Cape Breton North and Victoria and the former member for Westmorland. During the same period, representations were received as well from Mr. W. A. N. Macdonald, tourist co-ordinator for the southeastern New Brunswick tourist bureau and from Mr. Douglas Mahon of Halifax. I also held discussions with interested individuals in the areas concerned and with representatives from local chambers of commerce. In all of these representations, information was sought as to the feasibility of developing skiing facilities in Cape Breton Highlands and Fundy national parks.


SEWAGE TREATMENT PROJECTS
Mr. Rock: Is the government considering the advisability of extending the date from March 31, 1963 to March 31, 1965, of the National Housing Act pertaining to financial aid and loans for municipal sewage treatment projects?
Answer by: Mr. Fulton:
The question deals with a matter of policy and as I said in the House of Commons on October 10, 1962, as can be found at p. 369 of the unrevised edition of Hansard, I have asked "Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation to study . .. the general question of the further application of the sewage disposal plan". When a decision will have been reached, the house will be advised in the usual way.


* MISSING PTARMIGAN AIRWAYS PLANE
Mrs. Hardie: 1.	Is the Department of Transport aware that a Ptarmigan airways plane has been lost for some two weeks and a half in the Yellowknife district with a pilot and three passengers aboard?
2.	What efforts have been made by the department to search for the plane and its occupants?
3.	Is the D.O.T. responsible for air rescue operations in Canada and, if so, what action was taken by this division to assist the lost plane?
4.	Does the department reimburse private plane operators who go to the rescue of lost planes as to the gas, oil, and lost time encountered on such trips?


James Alexander McBain: 1.	Yes.
2.	The Department of Transport's role is determined in accordance with co-ordinated plans of the Department of National Defence which is responsible for search and rescue and involves the use of whatever facilities such as communications service, traffic control information, etc., may be called upon by the Royal Canadian Air Force in this connection. Information given by the Department of National Defence regarding search activities would cover any assistance provided by the Department of Transport.
3.	No.
4.	No.


VETERANS RECEIVING PENSIONS
Mr. Ouellel: How many veterans are receiving a pension (state complete details on the rate of pensions paid to the veterans), and what duration of service is required to entitle a veteran to a pension?
Answer by: Mr. Churchill:
151,515 veterans are receiving pension under the Pension Act.
The rates of pension are laid down in schedules A and B of the Pension Act.
Length of service is not a factor in awards of disability pension.


IMPORTS OF BUILDING STONE AND GRANITE
Mr. Frenette: What quantities of building stone and granite have been imported into Canada during 1959-60-61, and to what extent have such materials been used in the construction of federal government buildings?
(Translation) :
He said: Mr. Speaker, may I be allowed to withdraw that question.


Mr. Speaker:: Withdrawn.
(Text):
Order discharged and question withdrawn.


NATIONAL PARKS
Mr. Mather: 1.	What is the charge for persons entering the national parks of Canada?
2.	Is this charge levied on motorists who must pass through such parks while using the trans-Canada highway?
Answer by: Mr. Dinsdale:
1.	The fees charged for persons entering the national parks of Canada are set out in the attached schedule.
2.	Yes.
[Editor's note: Schedule referred to above is as follows:]


SCHEDULE
[Stage Direction]
Fees for park motor licences in the national parks of Canada
1.	Automobile or motorcycle entering Banff, Jasper, Yoho, Kootenay, Glacier and Mount Revelstoke national parks
(a)	licence for vehicle	$	2.00
(b)	licence for vehicle with trailer
attached	 3.00
(c)	single trip receipt, available only from November 1 in any year to March 31 next following,
(i)	fee for vehicle	50
(ii)	fee for vehicle with trailer
attached	 1.00
2.	Truck having a carrying capacity of not more than one ton, used for the transportation of passengers only, entering Banff, Jasper, Yoho, Kootenay, Glacier and Mount Revelstoke national
parks
(a)	licence for truck	 2.00
(b)	licence for truck with trailer
attached	 3.00
Questions
3. Automobiles and motorcycles entering Waterton lakes, Prince Albert, Riding
Mountain, Elk Island and Point Pelee parks-
Licence good for any number of trips during fiscal	year ending March 31 ..	1.00with	trailer	attached	
2.00
Fee for each single trip during fiscal
year		25
with	trailer	attached	50
4.	Trucks having a carrying capacity of not more than one ton used for the transportation of passengers only entering Waterton lakes, Prince Albert, Riding Mountain, Elk Island and Point Pelee parks-
Licence good for any number of trips
during fiscal	year ending March 31 ..	1.00with	trailer	attached	
2.00
Fee for each single trip during fiscal
year		25
with	trailer	attached	50
5.	A bus entering Banff, Jasper, Yoho, Kootenay, Glacier or Mount Revelstoke national park
(a)	single trip fee for bus where the superintendent is satisfied that
(i)	the bus is owned or hired by
(A)	a university, school or other educational institution, or
(B)	a welfare agency, service club, fraternal group or other non-profit organization,
(ii)	the purpose of entering the park is a visit by the staff, students or members of the institution or organization or by the persons for whose benefit the organization is operated,
(iii)	the visit has not been arranged for the purpose of bringing financial gain to the institution or organization, and
(iv)	the principal purpose of the institution or organization is not the preparation of tours for, the conducting of tours for or the transporting of its staff, students or members or the persons for whose benefit the organization
is operated	 2.00
(b)	licence for bus, where bus is on a regular interprovincial schedule in these parks based on mileage travelled on highways during fiscal year
(i)	for first 10,000 miles or part
thereof payable on issuance of
licence	 525.00
(ii) for each additional 10,000 miles or part thereof, payable upon
expiration	of licence	 525.00
(c) fee for bus other than a bus described in paragraph (a) or (b), for each passenger mile	 Jc
6. Buses entering Waterton lakes, Prince Albert, Riding Mountain, Elk Island and Point Pelee parkssingle	trip	50
Note: The fees in section 6 are subject to 10 per cent discount if a regular service is maintained and the fees covering the estimated number of trips are paid in advance.
7. Trucks entering Kootenay national park at the west gate and proceeding not farther than Radium Hot Springs town-site:
[Stage Direction]
Questions
(a)	with carrying capacity up to and including two tons
(i)	single trip	$	.25(ii)	fifty trips	
10.00(iii)	licence good for any numberof trips during fiscal year ending March 31	
20.00
<b) with carrying capacity exceeding two tons
(i)	single trip	50(ii)	fifty trips	
15.00(iii)	licence good for any number of
trips during fiscal year ending
March 31	  25.00
(c)	trucks having a carrying capacity of not more than two tons, used for the transportation of passengers only between the western gate of Kootenay national park and Radium Hot Springs townsite
Licence good for any number of trips during fiscal year ending March 31	 2.00
7A. Trucks entering Banff, Jasper, Yoho, Kootenay, Glacier and Mount Revelstoke national parks, other than those described in Item 7,
(a) with carrying capacity up to and
including two tons	
(i) single trip fee 			 1.00
(ii) fifty trip fee 			 25.00
(iii) licence 			 50.00*
) with carrying capacity	exceeding
two tons	
(i) single trip fee 			 2.00
(ii) fifty trip fee 			 50.00
(iii) licence 			 100.00*
Note: These licences are good for any number of trips during fiscal year ending March 31.
8. (1) Trucks entering Waterton Lakes,
Prince Albert, Riding Mountain, Elk Island and Point Pelee parks, other than
those described in subsection (2):
single trip	50
with trailer attached-single trip ______ 1.00
(Note: Fees for trucks entering Water-ton Lakes, Prince Albert, Riding Mountain, Elk Island and Point Pelee parks are subject to 10 per cent discount if a regular service is maintained and fees covering the estimated number of trips per month paid in advance.)
(2) Trucks entering Riding Mountain national park at the south gate and proceeding not farther than mile 9 on number 10 highway;
(a) with carrying capacity up to and including two tons
(i)	single trip	25(ii)	fifty trips	
10.00(iii)	licence good for any number of
trips during fiscal year ending
March 31	  20.00
(b)	with carrying capacity exceeding two tons
(i)	single trip	50(ii)	fifty trips	
15.00(iii)	licence good for any number oftrips during fiscal year ending March 31	
25.00

Mr. Tucker: Is it the intention of the Department of Transport to install a light or a buoy at the entrance to the harbour at New Bonaventure, Newfoundland?

Answer by: Mr. McBain:
No aid to navigation is planned at the entrance to the harbour at New Bonaventure but there is under consideration the question of an installation at Old Bonaventure, in regard to which the hon. member has communicated with the department.


*CLOSING OF C.N.R. STATIONS, NEWFOUNDLAND
Mr. Tucker: Has the Canadian National Railways reconsidered its decision to close railway stations at Brigus, Port Rexton, Spaniard's Bay and Trinity, in the province of Newfoundland?


James Alexander McBain: The management of Canadian National Railways advise as follows:
The situation with respect to the stations referred to in the question is still under study.


* SALARIES OF C.B.C. MODERATORS
Mr. Marcoux: Has the Minister of Labour ascertained whether the television hosts or moderators of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation are paid at least a minimum salary?


Mr. Hales:: I am informed by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation that in most cases television hosts or moderators are paid no less than the minimum fees arrived at in the process of collective bargaining between the union or unions involved and the corporation. In some instances, where the programs and persons concerned do not come within the jurisdiction of any union for the purpose of payment of talent fees, hosts and moderators are paid an honorarium mutually agreeable to both the host or moderator concerned and the corporation.


CHAPLEAU COUNTY, QUE.    PAYMENT FOR WINTER WORKS
Mr. Laprise: Have all the municipalities of the county of Chapleau, which have had works done under the winter works program during the 1961-62 season been reimbursed, and, if not, why; and when will they be reimbursed?
Answer by: Mr. Hales:
Under the municipal winter works incentive program for 1961-1962, 24 projects submitted by municipalities in the county of Chapleau were accepted. Final statements of claim have been submitted by the province in respect to 19 of these projects. Payment of 15 of these claims has been made to the province and payment of the other four will be made within the course of the next day or so.
In addition, interim claims have been submitted by the province in respect to three of the other projects. Payment of two of these

interim claims has been made to the province and payment of the other one will be going forward within a day or so.
No claims have as yet been received in respect to two of the projects authorized.
All federal payments under the municipal winter works incentive program are made to the province for reimbursement to the municipalities.


* BILINGUAL REQUIREMENT, CIVIL SERVICE VACANCIES
Mr. Laprise: When the civil service commission advertises vacancies in the service, why is knowledge of both official languages not an essential requirement in all the provinces of Canada?


Mr. Halpenny:: In establishing language qualifications required of persons appointed to the civil service, the civil service commission is governed by the provisions of Section 47 of the Civil Service Act which states in part "that the number of employees .. .who are qualified in the knowledge and use of the English of French language or both, shall.. .be sufficient to enable the department or local office to perform its functions adequately and to give effective service to the public".
In carrying out this statutory injunction the commission, as a matter of practice, normally requires that all employees be bilingual in an office where the minority, English or French speaking, of the persons served by that office exceeds 40 per cent of the total population served by that office. Where the minority served by an office is less than 40 per cent of the total population served, then the commission normally requires that employees knowledgeable in the use of both languages be at approximately the same proportion to the whole office staff as the minority is to the total number of persons served.


CAPE BRETON, N.S.-PUBLIC WORKS PROJECTS
Mr. Maclnnis: 1.	What public works projects are scheduled to be undertaken in 1962-63 in industrial Cape Breton?
2.	What projects have been, or will be, delayed as a result of the cuts in government spending?
Answer by Mr. McCleave:
1.	The following projects are now in progress in the industrial constituencies of Cape Breton South and Cape Breton North and Victoria: Reserve Mines, new post office building; Sydney Mines, new federal building; North Sydney, additions and alterations to the federal building.
2.	None are being delayed as a result of cuts in government spending.
Questions


*VESSEL CONSTRUCTION UNDER SUBSIDY PLAN
Mr. Chevrier: 1.	Following the announcement made in the house on May 12, 1961, by the Minister of Transport establishing a plan for construction subsidies to Canadian registered vessels, how many (a) ocean going ships (b) coastal or lake vessels (c) tankers, have been built under this plan?
2.	Are any corporations or subsidiaries thereof owned by United States citizens taking advantage of this plan and, if so, how many vessels, oceangoing, coastal or lake, and tankers are being built or are under contract to be built by such corporations or subsidiaries thereof, and what are the names of such corporations?
3.	Are any corporations or subsidiaries thereof owned by foreign citizens, other than United States citizens, taking advantage of this plan and, if so, how many vessels, ocean-going, coastal or lake, and tankers are being built or have been contracted to be built by such corporations or subsidiaries thereof?


Alfred Dryden Hales: 1.	(a)-1 capable of ocean-going, (b)-92.
(c)-3 capable of ocean-going.
2.	No investigations have been made to establish whether corporations are subsidiaries of corporations owned in the U.S.A. or any other country. The regulations require the shipowner to be a Canadian citizen, a corporation incorporated under the laws of Canada or of any province, or Her Majesty in right of any province.
3.	Answered by No. 2.


ACTION TAKEN RESPECTING BERLIN CRISIS
Mr. Matheson: 1.	Since July 4, 1961, when the Prime Minister spoke of the critical character of the Berlin crisis, how many military personnel have been returned to Canada from Europe?
2.	How many wives and children of Canadian servicemen are now residing in Germany?
3.	What provisions have been made for the safety of these dependents in the event of the outbreak of war in Germany?
4.	Does the Berlin situation warrant a re-examination of the cut-back program in service strength?
Answer by Mr. Harkness:
1.	4,763.
2.	15,105.
3.	Provision for the safety of dependants in Europe cannot be guaranteed. However, there are plans for their dispersal to selected areas or evacuation from the continent. The carrying out of these plans would depend on the type of emergency which might arise.
4.	Plans are being reviewed to meet all possible contingencies.


C.N.R. SET-OFF YARD, TORONTO
Mr. Sams: Have representations been received from the Aldershot property owners association in opposition to the site selected for a proposed set-off yard of the Canadian National Railways and (a) if so, has the company taken any action in an effort to find an alternative site (b) if not, will the

Questions
minister request that the company give immediate consideration to the desirability of finding an alternative site?
Answer by: Mr. McBain:
The management of Canadian National Railways advise as follows:
Representations have been received and officers of the great lakes region have held meetings with the mayor and councillors in order to explain what is involved. The existing main line through Burlington was constructed in 1855, and the planned set-off tracks are an essential part of the operations to serve the industrial complex between Burlington and Mimico and the connection with the line to the new hump yard. The railway officers have made an extensive examination of the situation as to the location of the set-off tracks and several sites were examined in the course of which many factors had to be taken into account such as operating conditions, and engineering limitations. Every effort has been made in the over-all project in order that the minimum of disturbance would be caused to communities.


H.M.C.S. &quot;MACKENZIE&quot;
Mr. Matheson: 1.	What is the approximate total cost to construct and fit H.M.C.S. Mackenzie?
2.	How many ships are to be constructed in this destroyer class, and at what estimated total cost?
3.	Does this ship possess speed equal or superior to the estimated submerged speed of the Soviet nuclear-powered four-theatre submarine fleet?
Answer by: Mr. Harkness:
1.	$25,750,000.
2.	Six, at a total estimated cost of $154,500,000.
3.	The nuclear submarine has a speed advantage over that of the Mackenzie class and similar type vessels, but speed is not the only means of the surface ship dealing with submarines.


DOKIS INDIAN SCHOOL, ONX.-TEACHING APPOINTMENTS
Mr. Godin: Since 1960, were Mr. McLean, Mrs. Fraser, and Mrs. Lester, appointed to teach at the Dokis Indian day school in the district of Parry Sound, province of Ontario, and, if so, what was (a) their period of employment (b) their duties (c) the monthly and total salary received?
Answer by: Mr. McGee:
The answer to the first part of the question is no. The remaining parts are therefore not applicable.
tMr. Sams.]


ROTATION TIME OFF SCHEDULE-UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
Mr. Godin: 1.	Since the coming into force of the Unemployment Insurance Act, did any firms adopt the "rotation time off schedule" (e.g., five weeks work, one week off) instead of fully laying off a specified number of men, and, if so, did the unemployment insurance commission on such occasion grant any concession covering the one week waiting period for benefits?
2.	At what date, and by what firms, was the "rotation time off schedule" adopted; and at what times, and for the employees of which firm, did the commission grant concessions under (1) above?
Answer by: Mr. Hales:
1.	Several firms have followed a work pattern whereby their employees worked one or more full weeks followed by a lay-off of a week or more and, after serving the waiting period, these employees were paid unemployment insurance benefit in respect of the week(s) of unemployment.
No concessions have been made by the commission with respect to the waiting period in such circumstances.
It is pointed out, however, that section 152 of the unemployment insurance regulations provides for waiving of the waiting period under certain conditions when a new claim immediately follows the termination of a previous claim, and this has been used where applicable.
2.	No record is kept of the firms who have followed a rotation pattern of work, and, as already stated, no concessions have been granted respecting the waiting period.


*NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORP. HEAD
Mr. Fisher: 1.	Who is the head of Northern Ontario pipe line crown corporation?
2.	What remuneration, if any, does he receive for fulfilling this function?
3.	If no remuneration is involved, can the government say what incentive exists to hold this position?


Mr. Nesbitt:: 1.	Mr. D. A. Golden.
2.	The directors of the corporation are entitled to receive, for attendance at directors' meetings, the actual travelling and living expenses incurred by them.
3.	Mr. Golden was appointed as president at the time of the establishment of the corporation and has continued to hold this position since that date, June 7, 1956.


* VOCATIONAL TRAINING PAYMENTS, ONTARIO AND QUEBEC
Mr. Fisher: Did the Minister of Labour give any previous parliamentary session an estimate of what amounts of money the provinces would need for their

requirement in the technical and vocational training field up to March 31, 1967, and, if so, what was the estimate for Ontario and Quebec, and what are the figures to date of the amount of money voted or in process of going to these two provinces under the Technical and Vocational Training Assistance Act?


Alfred Dryden Hales: The answer is as follows:
Yes, on December 9, 1960 (page 681 of Hansard) 4th session, 24th parliament. The figures given in 1960 for Ontario were $15 million and Quebec $30 million. These were tentative estimates provided by the provinces based largely on previous experience in providing trade and other training facilities.
The amount included in the estimates for the purposes of the Technical and Vocational Training Assistance Act is not allocated for any particular province. Claims received both paid and in process since April 1, 1961 from Ontario and Quebec represent federal payments to the amount indicated; Ontario, $69,087,969; Quebec, $16,114,759.


LIGHTHOUSES AND EMPLOYEES, NEWFOUNDLAND
Mr. Cashin: 1.	How many lighthouses are maintained in the province of Newfoundland?
2.	How many persons are employed to staff these lighthouses?
3.	How many of these employees are appointed through the federal civil service commission?
4.	How many are hired in other ways?
Answer by: Mr. McBain:
1.	439.
2.	376.
3.	131.
4.	245.
Arnold's cove, nfld. bait depot

Question No. 370-Mr. Cashin:
1.	Who operates the bait depot at Arnold's Cove, Placentia Bay, Newfoundland?
2.	When and on whose recommendation was he appointed?
Answer by: Mr. MacLean (Queens):
1.	George H. Guy.
2.	Appointed September 13, 1962 on recommendation of Minister of Fisheries.


WINTER WORKS PROGRAM IN UNORGANIZED MUNICIPALITIES
Mr. Laprise: Is the Minister of Labour aware that one or more county councils have refused, on financial grounds, to co-operate with the winter works program this year and, if so, is it the minister's intention to assist in some other way the parishes not organized into municipalities?
Answer by: Mr. Hales:
No indication has been made to the Department of Labour that county councils
Questions
have refused for financial reasons to participate in the municipal winter works incentive program on behalf of settlements within their boundaries.


POST OFFICE BUILDING, SOMERSET, MAN.
Mr. Teillel: 1.	Is there a post office in Somerset, Manitoba and, if so, is the building owned by the government?
2.	If under lease, what are the terms of the lease (a) as to annual cost (b) length of lease
(c)	date of termination (d) other costs, if any?
3.	Is the government considering the erection of a new post office building in Somerset and, if so (a) what would be the cost of such a building (b) when is the beginning of construction anticipated?
4.	Has a site for a post office building been purchased and, if so (a) where (b) what was the cost?
5.	If a site has not been purchased, is the purchase of such site under consideration?
Answer by: Mr. Fulion:
1.	Yes; no.
2.	(a) $1,230 per annum; (b) two years and eight months; (c) November 30, 1962; (d) nil.
3.	Yes; (a) not more than $25,000; (b) the winter of 1962-63.
4.	No; (a) and (b) not applicable.
5.	Yes. Negotiations are taking place for a site located at Carleton avenue and Second street.


TRANS-CANADA HIGHWAY, N.S. AND N.B.
Mr. Stewart: 1.	What .is the standard width of surface, and the standard width of shoulders, on highways constructed with assistance under the Trans-Canada Highway Act?
2.	How many miles of highway conforming to these standards had been completed as of October 1, 1962, in (a) Nova Scotia, and (b) New Brunswick?
3.	What are the terminal points of the stretches of highway qualifying as trans-Canada highway in Nova Scotia?
Answer by: Mr. McCleave:
1.	Width of surface-maximum 24 feet, minimum 22 feet. Width of shoulders, maximum 10 feet, minimum 5 feet.
2.	Nova Scotia, 119 miles; New Brunswick 209 miles.
3.	The terminal points of the trans-Canada highway in the province of Nova Scotia are the New Brunswick border, Caribou and North Sydney.


HOUSING STARTS AND MONEY ADVANCED, 1962
Mr. Matheson: 1.	How do housing starts each month in 1962 compare with corresponding months in 1961?
2.	How do moneys advanced by C.M.H.C. each month in 1962 compare with corresponding months in 1961?

Questions Answer by: Mr. McCleave:
1. Housing starts in centres of 5,000 population and over
	1961	1962
January 	
3,894	4,177February 	
3,847	3,207March 	
5,479	5,073April 	
7,339	7,930May	
8,778	9,420June 	
10,536	11,441July	
9,009	10,450August 	
9,467	9,340September ....	
8,934	8,918Total 	
67,283	69,9562. Moneys advanced by C.M.H.C. for loans	under the National Housing	Act. (Homeowners; limited dividend housing; university	housing; municipal sewage treatment projects)	1961	1962$ '000	$ '000January 	18,460	24,819February 	15,991	15,759March	16,020	16,214April 	16,605	12,374May	21,053	14,834June 	24,486	19,234July	24,050	17,865August 	29,308	22,678September ....	29,951	19,550Total	195,924	163,327


CHIEF JOSEPH DREAVER
Mr. Howard: 1.	Since December 1, 1961, has one Chief Joseph Dreaver of the Mistawasis band of Indians been employed in any capacity with the government of Canada and, if so, what is his position and duties, how long has he been so employed, at what salary and expense allowance, what total amount of money has been paid to him as salary and expenses, and under what vote or votes of the estimates for each fiscal year during his employment has this salary and expense allowance been paid?
2.	At what salary and expense allowance, if any, will the said Chief Dreaver be employed in the preparation of the written report expected to be received in December and referred to by the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration at page 625 of Hansard for October 17, 1962, and under what vote or votes of the estimates for this fiscal year will such salary and/or expense allowance be paid?
Answer by: Mr. McGee:
1. Yes. Since December 1,	1961, Chief
Joseph Dreaver, senior, of the Mistawasis band of Indians has been employed by the department to survey the Indians of Saskatchewan in respect to their reactions and
[Mr. Matheson.l
recommendations with regard to the findings of the joint committee of the Senate and House of Commons on Indian affairs and to submit a report thereon. For his services, Chief Dreaver will receive a total of $6,500 on the basis of $25 per diem for a five day week, this to include any travelling expenses. To September 30, 1962, Chief Dreaver received a total payment of $5,250.00 for his services from vote 40-administration, Indian affairs branch.
2. The $6,500 total payment to Chief Dreaver will include the preparation of the written report.


DAMAGE FROM PLANES BREAKING SOUND BARRIER
Mr. Brown: Does the government provide any remedy to individuals who suffer loss and damage to their property such as greenhouses, etc., resulting from government planes breaking the sound-barrier?
Answer by: Mr. Harkness:
Claims for damage caused by sonic booms are treated in the same way as other claims against the crown and liability is determined pursuant to the Crown Liability Act.



SUMMER SCHOOL STUDENTS


Mr. Brown: Has the government given consideration to allowing the same deductions for income tax purposes for university summer-school students as are at present allowed for regular intramural students and, if so, what was the decision?
Answer by: Mr. Graffiey:
This is a matter of tax policy. Decisions concerning requests for tax changes are made known in the annual budget.



TARIFF BOARD


Mr. Cameron (High Park): 1.	Did the federal government, by order in council in 1959, extend for a limited period the tenure of office of retiring members of the tariff board or commission?
2.	If so, (a) what is the reference to such order in council (b) what was the need for passing such order in council?
Answer by: Mr. Graffiey:
1.	Yes.
2.	(a) by order in council P.C. 1959-404 of the 2nd of April, 1959.
(b) the limited extension of tenure, one month, was needed to allow the retiring members to adjudicate upon appeals which they had heard and in which the record was not completed in time to allow adjudication before the expiry of their term.



KAPUSKASING EXPERIMENTAL FARM STAFF

Mr. Habel: 1.	How many members of the Kapuskasing experimental farm's staff have been transferred or have resigned since January 1, 1961?
2.	Has the Department of Agriculture considered the need of replacements so as to keep to a maximum the efficiency of services provided to agricultural districts served by the Kapuskasing experimental farm?
3.	When will this experimental farm's staff be brought to its former strength?
Answer by: Mr. Jorgenson:
1.	Four, two which have been replaced.
2.	Yes.
3.	As soon as possible.



FRASER RIVER TRIFURCATION

Mr. Mather: Is it the intention of the government to proceed at this session with legislation in respect to Fraser river trifurcation?
Answer by: Mr. McCleave:
No. Legislation is not necessary.



ESTABLISHMENT OF VETERINARY COLLEGE. WESTERN CANADA

Mr. Thompson: Has the Minister of Agriculture replied to a letter directed to him by the minister of agriculture for the province of Alberta, dated February 7. 1962, relating to the possibility of obtaining a federal grant toward the cost of establishing a veterinary college in western Canada and, if so, what was the general nature of his reply?
Answer by: Mr. Jorgenson:
The letter of February 7, 1962 from the minister of agriculture for Alberta was acknowledged from the office of the Minister of Agriculture on February 9, 1962. Formal conclusion to the matter raised in the letter has not yet been reached.
protection against counterfeit bank notes

Question No. 399-Mr. Bernier:
Have any steps been taken with a view to looking into the possibility of bringing about such improvements with respect to the printing of bank notes as would protect the public against the counterfeit money now in circulation and, if not, does the government intend to take such steps?
(Translation):
(Page 879)


Mr. Grafftey:: Officers of the Bank of Canada have written or visited government agencies or commercial establishments to study the technical aspects of the production of money in the United States and various European countries.
The Bank of Canada also keeps in contact with paper manufacturers and bank note printers in this country and with the national research council and the royal mounted police while continuing to examine possible means
Orders for Returns
of improving the printing of bank notes in order to protect the public against counterfeit money.
(Text):



*U.S. SUMMER RESIDENTS IN CANADA

Miss LaMarsh: 1.	What is the status of U.S. citizens, temporarily resident in Canada on summer property, who commute to their employment in the United States?
2.	Are U.S. citizens, temporary residents of the Crystal Beach-Bertie township-Fort Erie area, being advised by immigration officials that they must terminate their Canadian residence by the end of October and, if so, why, and is this a new policy and practice of the department?
3.	If such residents are holders of Canadian visas, can such visas be extended and, if so, for how long, and under what conditions?


Mr. Bell (Carleton):: 1. United States citizens temporarily resident in Canada on summer property, whether or not they commute to employment in the United States, are admitted as non-immigrant visitors.
2.	The period of non-immigrant entry for persons mentioned in this question normally expires on or before October 31 of each year, which is regarded as the end of the summer season. Persons in this category who satisfy the immigration officers concerned that they are in fact bona fide temporary residents, as distinct from permanent residents, may be allowed entry beyond October 31. If it is established that any persons originally admitted as temporary visitors have in fact become permanent residents, they are examined as immigrants. This is not a new policy or practice of the department.
3.	Citizens of the United States do not require visas for entry to Canada. As indicated in the answer to question 2, temporary entry may be granted beyond October 31 to bona fide non-immigrants.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. Bechard: In the current financial year, were any public works planned for the district of Bonaventure and, if so, (a) where was it intended to proceed with them (b) what was the amount involved in each case (c) as of this date, have all these works been completed or are they in progress (d) has the austerity program affected any of the projects?


STANLEY PARK AQUARIUM, VANCOUVER
Mr. Howard: 1.	Since January 1, 1962, have any representations been received by the government or any department thereof for a contribution toward the expansion of the aquarium in Vancouver's Stanley park, and was one of these representations from the Vancouver public aquarium association?
2.	What answer was given to those representations, is a contribution to be made and, if so, how much and when?

Motions /or Papers



MILITARY COLLEGES


Mr. Dupuis: 1.	How many cadets attend the military college at (a) St. Jean (b) Kingston (c) Royal Roads?
2.	How many English speaking cadets and French speaking cadets are there in each of these colleges?
3.	How many officers and professors are there in each of these colleges?
4.	Of these officers and professors, how many are proficient in both official languages of Canada?


Mr. Sevigny:: Return tabled.



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS

[Stage Direction]
Canada's exchange reserves
Motion No. 7-Mr. Lewis:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of all correspondence between the government of Canada or any minister, department or agency thereof and the international monetary fund, the export import bank, the federal reserve bank and the Bank of England concerning Canada's exchange reserves, dated since May 1, 1962, and any documents or memoranda referred to in such correspondence or otherwise exchanged between the government and the institutions named herein.
Mr. Nowlan:: Mr. Speaker, with respect to this motion, I am prepared to accept it on behalf of the government subject to the usual reservation of obtaining the consent of people to whom confidential correspondence has been sent. I am sure that will be forthcoming. There is one reference here to memoranda which would include the minutes of any meeting. I could not accept that because those minutes are confidential, and I believe that the hon. member who moved the motion, to whom I have spoken, is agreeable in that regard.


Mr. Speaker:: Subject to the reservation and the amendment that has been made by the minister with consent of the hon. member, is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion?


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
exchange restriction orders in council, 1947
Motion No. 9-Mr. Mcllrailh:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of all orders in council passed in November 1947 imposing exchange restrictions.
He said:	Mr. Speaker, before you put
this motion, I find that sessional paper No. 140 tabled on the 8th of December, 1947, contains two orders in council of the nature described in the notice of motion, and the parliamentary assistant advises me that these are the only orders in council of the kind referred to in the notice of motion. Therefore, I ask leave to withdraw the motion.
Order discharged and motion withdrawn.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 11- Mr. Laing:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of all correspondence between any and all departments of the government of Canada and all governmental departments and agencies in the United States dealing with the export of Canadian lumber to the United States.
Mr. Green:: Mr. Speaker, the correspondence referred to in this notice of motion comprises an exchange of correspondence between the government of Canada and the government of the United States. Tabling will, of course, require the concurrence of the government of the United States. Subject to this reservation I am willing to accept the motion.


Mr. Speaker:: Subject to the reservation indicated by the minister, is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion?


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 13-Mr. Benidickson:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of all correspondence since January 1, 1962, between the government of Canada and the government of Ontario respecting a proposed road to resources out from the Wemer-Gordon lakes nickel mining territory and referred to by the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources on February 28, 1962, Hansard page 1339.
Motion agreed to.

Mr. Malheson:: That an order of the house do issue for a copy of the final report of the correctional planning committee.


Mr. Bell (Saint-John Albert):: Mr. Speaker, could this stand for discussion with the mover?


Mr. Speaker:: Is it agreed?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
Motion stands.



ESTABLISHMENT OF PORT AT MOOSONEE, ONT.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 24-Mr. Peters:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of all correspondence, telegrams, and other documents exchanged between the federal government and any other government or agency, department or branch thereof, since January 1, 1959, relating to an economic or feasibility survey to examine the possibilities of establishing a salt-water port at Moosonee.
Mr. Fulton:: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the
government I am prepared to accept this motion, subject to the usual reservation regarding any confidential information and also subject to the consent of the province concerned.


Mr. Speaker:: Subject to the reservation expressed by the minister is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

Mr. Peters:: That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of all correspondence, telegrams, and other documents exchanged between the Department of Transport and its agents, and the Ontario Northland Railway and/or its agents, in the matter of a railway crossing on the newly constructed by-pass on No. 11 highway over the tracks of the O.N.R. immediately north of New Liskeard, Ontario.
He said: Mr. Speaker, I ask leave of the house to withdraw this motion, as I am told the correspondence comes solely under the responsibility of the province.


Mr. Speaker:: Is it the pleasure of the house that the motion be withdrawn?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
Order discharged and motion withdrawn.



DAIRY PRODUCTS PRICE SUPPORT


[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 26-Mr. Malheson:
That an order of the house do issue for copies of all statements or speeches made by the Minister of Agriculture from April 1, 1962, to Ontario and Quebec dairy farmers concerning the production of and price support for dairy products.
Mr. Hamilton:: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the government I have great pleasure in accepting this motion without reservation.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 27
Mr. Chevrier:: That an order of the house do issue for a table listing particulars of merchant vessels for which a shipbuilding subsidy assistance has been paid or for which contracts have been approved, as of October 15, 1962, covering the shipyard, the name of the vessel, the type of vessel, the approved capital cost, the amount of the subsidy, the gross tonnage, and the name of the owner, in the same manner as outlined in table VI, appendix "F" of the fifteenth report of the Canadian maritime commission, June 29, 1962.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 28-Mr. Howard:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of a summary of discussions and points of view and the decisions made at each meeting of the national productivity council.
Motion agreed to.
Inquiries of the Ministry

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 29-Mr. Turner:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of a table showing, day by day, the amount of the forward commitments entered into by the Bank of Canada to buy or sell U.S. dollars or pounds sterling, from April 9 to June 24, 1962, inclusive.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 30
Mr. Turner:: That an order of the house do issue for the production of a statement of the total official holdings of gold and foreign exchange, including U.S. dollars, held in the exchange fund account and Bank of Canada at the beginning of business on April 9, 1962.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 31-Mr. Turner:
That an order of the house do issue for the production of a statement of the total forward commitments to buy or sell U.S. dollars or pounds sterling, entered into by the Bank of Canada, as at the beginning of business on April 9, 1962.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 32-Mr. Malheson:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all communications addressed to the food and drug directorate or to the Department of National Health and Welfare respecting the use, and the withdrawal from use, of the drug lysergic acid diethylamide.
Mr. Monleilh:: Mr. Speaker, subject to the usual reservations concerning communications within the department or interdepartmental being privileged, and if there is any communication or correspondence with the provinces I would first have to get their permission.


Mr. Speaker:: Subject to the reservations as indicated by the minister, is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the said motion?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. W. Herridge (Kootenay West):: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of privilege. In view of the fact that this is United Nations' day, and never was there such an important reason for expressing our loyalty to the United Nations than on this particular day, during a time of crisis; in view of the fact that the Prime Minister has already made a statement outside the house with respect to

Inquiries of the Ministry this very important day, and in order that the hon. members of all parties will have the opportunity to participate and express the same loyalties and opinions on this occasion in the house, would the Prime Minister ask the permission of the house to revert to motions for that purpose?


Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, I do not think this has ever been customary; therefore I see no reason to make the motion requested.



EXTERNAL AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. L. B. Pearson (Leader of the Opposition):: I would like to ask the Prime Minister whether the government proposes to associate Canada with the resolution passed unanimously yesterday by the American republics at the meeting of the organization of American states which endorsed the policy of the United States in steps to halt the flow of offensive missile weapons to Cuba from the Soviet bloc; and may I ask him also whether Canada was represented by an observer at that meeting?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, Canada did not have an observer at the meeting, and I think it would be presumption on my part to give the views of Canada with respect to an organization of which we have not been and are not now a member.


Mr. Frank Howard (Skeena):: I should like to direct a question to the Prime Minister or to the Secretary of State for External Affairs. In order that Canada may bring her desires for peace fully to bear on the United States and other countries, has any consideration been given to joining the organization of American states so that we may use that forum for our activities?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I have nothing further to add to that which has been said on previous occasions. The membership or nonmembership of Canada at this time in the organization of American states neither would contribute to nor detract from contributing to the desirable end all of us have in mind.


INQUIRY AS TO HEAD OF CANADIAN DELEGATION AT UNITED NATIONS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Paul Martin (Essex East):: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Secretarv of State for External

Affairs, in view of the seriousness of the hours through which we are passing, and the important events that are taking place at the United Nations, who is in charge of the Canadian delegation at the moment?


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, the permanent Canadian representative is Mr. Paul Tremblay.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Secretary of State for External Affairs another question somewhat related to my earlier one and to one which I asked yesterday. In view of the fact that the Secretary of State for External Affairs, for reasons best known to himself, has decided that at this time he should not be at the United Nations, does he not think that in view of all the circumstances it is in the national interest that at least his parliamentary secretary, at any rate, should be present at the United Nations in New York at this time?


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, the parliamentary secretary was at the United Nations last Thursday and Friday, and he may be going back in a day or two. He may even go back this evening. However, I can assure the hon. member that my one interest in this present crisis is to do the very best I can for Canada and for peace in the world, and I really do not need any prompting from him as to what is my duty.


Mr. Pickersgill:: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I might ask the Secretary of State for External Affairs a supplementary question. Does the hon. gentleman not feel that the united backing of this parliament would be helpful to the government at this time?


SUGGESTED CANADIAN ACTION AT UNITED NATIONS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. David Lewis (York South):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to address a question to either the Prime Minister or the Secretary of State for External Affairs. Is the government considering placing before the United Nations a resolution requesting both the U.S.S.R. and the United States to act immediately and simultaneously to turn back Soviet ships from Cuba and to remove the shipping blockade by the United States, in order to create opportunity for the United Nations to initiate necessary negotiations to remove the threat to peace?


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, this
question, as hon. members know, is at the present time before the security council. Canada is not a member of that council. There

are two resolutions under consideration, one submitted by the United States and the other by the Soviet union. At this particular time, and under these conditions, it would be inappropriate for Canada to submit a resolution such as the hon. member suggests.
I can assure the house that we will be doing everything we can to bring about a peaceful solution to this problem. In that connection, the suggestion made by the Prime Minister the other evening is being very helpful.


GOOSE BAY, LABRADOR  SEARCH OF CUBAN PLANE
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. T. R. Berger (Vancouver-Burrard):: May
I direct a question to the Minister of National Revenue. In asking this question I have considered those matters to which the Prime Minister adverted a few moments ago.
Can the minister tell the house whether a Cubana Airlines aircraft with two East German technicians aboard landed at Goose Bay, Labrador, this morning, and was searched by customs officials assisted by the R.C.M.P.? If so, was this done in order to facilitate the United States quarantine of Cuba?


Howard Charles Green: Perhaps a word of explanation on this question would be helpful. For some time now the government has been concerned at the increasing number of Soviet aircraft requesting landing or overflight privileges in Canada en route to Cuba. This privilege is one which is normally accorded on a reciprocal basis under the ICAO convention and related agreements to which the Soviet union is not a signatory.
We have informed the Soviet union that since this right is a privilege stemming from an agreement to which they are not a party, no further landings in Canada or overflights of Canadian territory will be granted to Soviet aircraft en route to Cuba.
With respect to flights between other Soviet bloc countries and Cuba, we have taken steps to ensure that inspection and other relevant procedures in accordance with Canadian laws and the provisions of the ICAO convention are fully complied with to ensure that no warlike material is being carried through Canada to Cuba. Under the ICAO convention, no munitions of war or implements of war may be carried in or above the territory of a state in aircraft engaged in international navigation, except by permission of such state. Canadian law contains a similar provision.
With respect to the reports which have appeared this morning, I can confirm that an aircraft owned by Cubana Airlines landed last night at Goose Bay airport on its way from Prague to Havana. It was searched by
Inquiries of the Ministry the Canadian customs authorities and nothing of an objectionable nature was found in its cargo. The aircraft has now been allowed to proceed to Havana.
At the present time, neither the United States quarantine of Cuba nor Canadian policy in this regard contain any restrictions on the normal movement of personnel into Cuba. For the time being we are concerned only with weapons, and this, I believe, is also the position of the United States.


Mr. S. P. Ryan (Spadina):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to address a question to the Minister of National Defence. Is Canada assisting in any way in the policing of the Atlantic ocean to prevent entry of weapons into Cuba?


Hon. D. S. Harkness (Minister of National Defence):: Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member means are we taking any part in the quarantine operations put into effect by the United States government, the answer is no.


Sylvester Perry Ryan: A supplementary question. May I take it then that in some ancillary fashion we are assisting?


Douglas Scott Harkness: No, just the reverse, Mr. Speaker. We are taking no part in that operation whatever.


Thomas Rodney Berger: Mr. Speaker, may I respectfully direct a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs. Can he tell the house, if he feels he is at liberty to do so, how close the Soviet vessels headed for Cuba are to the United States blockade vessels in the Caribbean?


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, I am not in a position to give that information.
(Translation):
On the orders of the day.


Mr. Gerald Laniel (Beauharnois-Salaberry):: May I direct a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs? Can the minister tell the house if any Canadian citizens are in Cuba at present and, if so, can he tell the house if his department has taken any steps to bring these people back to Canada, should there be any worsening of the present crisis? (Text):


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, there are some Canadian citizens in Cuba, and we have our ambassador there with his staff. Part of the responsibilities of his staff is, of course, to look after Canadians. Thus far the Canadians in Cuba have been properly treated,

Inquiries of the Ministry and at the moment there is no need, I think, to ask them to return to Canada. The embassy will be very glad to help any Canadians who do wish to come back to Canada.


NATIONAL DEFENCE
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Paul Hellyer (Trinity):: I wish to direct a question to the Minister of National Defence. Has the Canadian government in recent days received any request from the United States government or any of its agencies asking that Canada take steps to improve the effectiveness of North American defence, and has any decision been taken in this regard?
Hon. D. S. Harkness (Minister of National
Defence): Mr. Speaker, we have taken certain precautionary military measures which will have the effect of improving the capability of the armed forces to respond to any situation that may exist.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: As a supplementary question, in view of the seriousness of the situation will the minister take the house and the country into his confidence and give us a statement as to the measures taken by the government?


Douglas Scott Harkness: I do not think, Mr. Speaker, it would serve the public interest or that it would be a good thing at this time to follow the course of action suggested by the hon. member.


Mr. Charles M. Drury (St. Anloine-West-mounl):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Defence. Has the department received from the United States government or any agency thereof a request to improve the state of readiness of the Canadian armed forces; and if so, what was the response?


Douglas Scott Harkness: Mr. Speaker, I think this is just a repetition of the question asked by the hon. member for Trinity (Mr. Hellyer) a minute ago.


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: Mr. Speaker, I do not think it is a repetition.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member is not in a position to comment on the answer he may receive.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, on a question of privilege, the minister did not, as I apprehend it, reply to the question at all. The minister raised a point of order about the question, although he


did not call it a point of order, and my hon. friend was seeking to speak on the point of order raised by the minister-


Mr. Fleming (Eglinlon):: Nonsense. That is a fiction.


John Whitney Pickersgill: -namely, that the question was a repetition of a question already asked.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I think the hon. member has been in this house long enough to know that he is not speaking on a question of privilege. In any event, whether the minister wishes to answer in any way whatsoever, the traditions of this house are that the answer shall not be commented upon. The Chair makes no observation on the nature of replies but only says that the hon. member cannot comment on any answer, whether it is very wise or to the other extreme.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order which Your Honour has just raised-


Mr. Churchill:: Nonsense.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Your Honour has just said that the Chair makes no comment on the answers that are given. I wonder whether the same forbearance could be exercised with respect to the questions asked.


Mr. Slarr:: Aren't you an authority?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Presumption.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The Chair does not make any comment on the merits of a reply, as some hon. members may sometimes seek to do after they have received a reply. If the answers are offensive I will try as best I can to also bring them within the rules.


Mr. D. M. Fisher (Pori Arthur):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Prime Minister, what is the degree of civil defence preparedness at this particular critical moment?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I think this answer will apply to various questions that I know occur to hon. gentlemen at this time and which they have refrained from asking. I think that in these hours and days of international sensitivity all of us will endeavour to exercise a restraint in asking questions which under normal circumstances would be appropriate but which at this time might be considered as provocative or fear-producing.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Prime Minister whether he does not consider that in these hours of international danger and sensitivity it is desirable for this house to receive all the information concerning the current crisis that is appropriate?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I seem to recall that in the past when questions of this kind were asked when we were sitting on the other side of the house, a similar answer was given. I know the hon. gentleman has always been most careful in his questions; and I know that, with the knowledge he has, he would be the first to say that were we to place before the house various matters that might be spoken of at this time, it would be neither beneficial to this country or its security, and might indeed be provocative.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Could the Prime Minister assure the house that the Canadian government is doing everything possible to halt this race toward international suicide?


Mr. Speaker:: Order.


REPORTED CANADIAN DEFAULT UNDER TREATY
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Paul Theodore Hellyer: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Defence. Is it a fact, as reported by a senior and respected member of the parliamentary press gallery, that Canada has defaulted on its solemn obligation in respect of the NORAD treaty, in time of crisis, by refusing to accede to the request of the United States air force to arm Canadian Bomarc squadrons with atomic warheads and to permit United States airplanes to use Canadian air bases?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I think the hon. member knows very well that it is quite contrary to our rules to ask any minister to comment upon any report made in a newspaper. This merely invites controversy on orders of the day.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Mr. Speaker, then may I pose the same question without reference to the newspaper report, and just ask if it is a fact that Canada has defaulted on its agreement, or is it felt in Washington that we have defaulted in respect of our agreement?


Douglas Scott Harkness: Mr. Speaker, the answer is emphatically no, we have not defaulted.


STRENGTHENING OF CANADIAN FORCES IN EUROPE
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. John R. Matheson (Leeds):: May I direct a question to the Minister of National Defence. Has General Norstad, commander of NATO forces, requested a strengthening of our military forces in Europe?
Inquiries of the Ministry


Douglas Scott Harkness: I am sorry, but I did not hear the question.


John Ross Matheson: Did the commander at NATO headquarters request a strengthening of our military forces in Europe?


Douglas Scott Harkness: No, Mr. Speaker.


SITUATION RESPECTING DEPENDANTS OF FORCES IN EUROPE
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Paul Theodore Hellyer: I wish to direct a question to the Minister of National Defence. In view of the recent increase in world tension has there been any change in government policy in respect to sending the dependants of Canadian soldiers and airmen to Europe? Further, is it anticipated that those dependants who are about to leave for Europe will proceed as scheduled?
Hon. D. S. Harkness (Minister of National
Defence): The rotation of about one third of the brigade in Europe with troops in Canada had been planned several months ago to begin tomorrow. In view of the present situation we have decided to delay that movement until the situation is clarified. This, of course, will mean that there will be a minimum of disruption and loss of efficiency due to movement of troops from and to units in Canada and Europe. It will also mean that no further dependants will be sent over to Europe at the present time.


REQUEST FOR COMPREHENSIVE DISCUSSION OF INTERNATIONAL SITUATION
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Stanley Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):: Mr. Speaker, in view of the bits and pieces way in which we have been getting information today about the international situation, would the Prime Minister or the Secretary of State for External Affairs consider giving us tomorrow a comprehensive statement so that the house might be fully informed, and so that the opinions of all groups might be expressed in a more orderly way than I think has been the case today?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, in so far as the cordial way is concerned, I am sure that today was no exception to the usual day-always affable and always considerate. In so far as the earlier part of the question is concerned, this is a matter which I think might be given consideration. It is very difficult, as the hon. gentleman knows, to place before the house the various things which are being done. He has stated that he is getting answers in a bits and pieces manner. I can assure him

Inquiries of the Ministry and the house that when we are in a position to place before the house something of the picture, and in a manner which will be helpful both to the house and also to Canada's security, it will be done.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, on a matter of privilege-not crucial but so that the record will be correct-I think the word I used was "orderly" not "cordial". But I do thank the Prime Minister for his cordial reply.


Mr. A. J. P. Cameron (High Park):: should like to direct a question to the Prime Minister. In view of the sensitive international situation at the present time, would the government give consideration to the immediate constitution of the committee on external affairs and the committee on national defence?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, that is a suggestion to which the government will give full consideration.
[Later:}


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, if I might add to the answer I gave a moment ago, I would point out that the government is waiting for the names of opposition members for appointment to standing committees, including the standing committee on external affairs. As soon as the names have been received, it will be set up. So far as the defence committee is concerned, there is no such standing committee.
(Translation):


REQUEST FOR OBSERVANCE OF PEACE WEEK
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. P. Cook (Monlmagny-L'Islet):: Mr. Speaker, I want to direct a question to the Prime Minister.
Following a letter we probably all received from the Canadian movement for nuclear disarmament, has the Prime Minister decided to designate the week from November 5th to 11th next as peace week?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I think we already had answers from the Prime Minister with regard to decisions as to designating such and such a week in favour of such and such a project, and I do not think that the question of the hon. member is in order.


Jean-Paul Cook: On a question of privilege, Mr. Speaker-
(Text):


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member for Port Arthur-

(Translation):


Jean-Paul Cook: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. I respectfully submit that the 5th of November is very near and that, in the light of world activities these days, it would be normal that Canada design a week as peace week.


Mr. Speaker:: Order.


PARLIAMENT HILL
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Gerard Lamy (SI. Maurice-Lafleche):: Mr. Speaker, since it is my first opportunity to speak in this house, I should like to congratulate you on your appointment to the office of Speaker of the House of Commons.
I should like to ask the Prime Minister and, at the same time, the Leader of the Opposition, whether they could show us the Canadian flag in front of the parliament buildings.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I do not feel it is proper under our rules to put a question to two ministers or two members at the same time.
On the orders of the day:


Mr. Raymond Langlois (Meganiic):: I should like to put a question to the Prime Minister. Would the Prime Minister tell us, out of all the flags which decorate the front of parliament today, which one is the Canadian flag?


Mr. Gilles Gregoire:: Is the Prime Minister refusing to answer this question because of the lack of a Canadian flag?
(Text):


CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION
[Stage Direction]
"quest"
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. R. Garland (Nipissing):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Secretary of State. I was able to send him notice earlier. Has the minister received any representations from concerned parents in respect of the alleged indecent character of a television program called "Quest" emanating from a C.B.C. Toronto studio on Sunday evening, October 21? If so, has the minister brought these complaints to the attention of the C.B.C. management, and with what results?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I think with the continuing questions the hon. member has asked he has made his representations. I think it would be better if the question were to appear on the order paper. There is no great sense of urgency at this moment in replying thereto.
(Translation) :


FRENCH TRANSLATION OF CALL MEMO
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Laureai Maltais (Saguenay):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Prime Minister. Could the Prime Minister tell me if a French speaking member could obtain in French immediately or, if not, when, what is known as the "Call memo"?


CHEQUE REPORTED ONLY PARTLY BILINGUAL
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. P. A. Boutin (Dorchester):: Mr. Speaker I should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Revenue. Is the minister aware of the fact that cheque No. 88-894, which is supposed to be bilingual, is only so in part, since the date and the amount are written in English only?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I should like to remind some hon. members that they would do well to refer to my recommendations concerning questions asked on the orders of the day. It seems to me we have here a series of questions which would be just as well on the order paper. The hon. members should make their inquiries in some other place and at another time.


Pierre-André Boutin: In other places than this house, Mr. Speaker, we get no answers. In other places it is not possible to call attention to the French problem.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. It is out of order to question a ruling by the Chair.


Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. If the attention of the house is not called to those matters, they are often neglected, and I think we have the right to take the occasion to bring them up in the house.


Mr. Speaker:: I think that if some members were allowed to bring up all kinds of matters, others would follow suit and we would still be here at midnight.


Gilles Grégoire: The bilingual character of our country-
Inquiries of the Ministry
(Text):


ROYAL CANADIAN MINT
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Miss Judy V. LaMarsh (Niagara Falls):: have a question for the Minister of Finance. Will the minister undertake to explain to the house why, in the light of the desirability of expanding the Canadian printing industry, a publication of interior views of the Royal Canadian Mint which is sold by guides to those completing a tour of the mint is printed in the United States of America?


Mr. Speaker:: Order.


George Clyde Nowlan: Probably it was printed before the government changed.
(Translation):



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Raymond Langlois: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Labour. As winter works are starting now, would the minister tell us whether he intends-in the carrying out of such works- to hire the unemployed who are not entitled to unemployment benefits this year?
(Text):


Michael Starr: When this plan was set up it was pointed out that municipalities might hire for employment on these projects people who were not in receipt of unemployment insurance as well as those who were, and who were out of work. (Translation):


Raymond Langlois: Mr. Speaker, I would point out to the minister that in some municipalities, only persons entitled to unemployment benefits are working at present.


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. members are not allowed to comment or to make such representations in the house.
(Text):



REPORTED STATEMENT BY ONTARIO


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. R. B. Cowan (York-Humber):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce. Is the minister aware of the public statement made in Tokyo, Japan, following an interview with the head of a foreign state, namely the Prime Minister

Inquiries of the Ministry of Japan, by Hon. Robert Macaulay, a minister of the crown and minister of economics and development in the Ontario government, to the effect that Ontario could be in business in a way that Canada could not-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I respectfully submit to the hon. member that it is altogether out of order to invite a minister to comment upon, or to agree or disagree with, the remarks of another minister for whom the hon. minister being questioned has no responsibility.



CUBA-INQUIRY AS TO CHANGE OF POLICY

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. E. T. Asselin (Noire Dame de Grace):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to address a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce. In view of the present international situation, has the government changed its policy with regard to trade with Cuba?


Hon. George H. Hees (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: No, Mr. Speaker. I have outlined our position with regard to trade with Cuba both in the house and outside, as has the Prime Minister, and that policy remains the same.



AIR TRANSPORT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Arthur Laing (Vancouver South):: Your Honour, I have a question I should like to address to the Minister of Transport. Is he continuing to participate in negotiations with Pacific Western Airlines leading to the continuation of their so-called prairie milk run after November 1?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I would respectfully submit to the hon. member that that question is more one for the order paper.



POST OFFICE DEPARTMENT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Azellus Denis (Si. Denis):: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Postmaster General. Following the recent demand by the federal association of letter carriers in Toronto that the present system of punishing delinquent letter carriers by way of fines be abolished, is it the intention of the government to abide by this demand, at least until the austerity program affecting salary increases has ended?


Hon. Ellen L. Fairclough (Postmaster General):: Mr. Speaker, I saw the article in the newspapers to which the hon. member no doubt refers. I have made appropriate inquiries, and I find that instead of some $8,000 a month there is about $300 a month, and I am told that the officers of the letter carriers association agree with the department in the disciplinary action which is now being taken.



INQUIRY FOR RETURN

[Stage Direction]
REDUCTIONS IN 1962-63 ESTIMATES On the orders of the day:
John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could ask the Minister of Finance or his parliamentary secretary, in case it has not yet been done- and I can find no record that it has-whether the answer to question No. 218, which was made an order for return and which the minister said last Thursday he would try to expedite, could be made available, as the information in it is desired for the debate which is now going on?


William Heward Grafftey: Mr. Speaker, I will look right into that matter for the hon. member.



INDIAN AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Frank Howard: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration based on a reply given to me today to the effect that one Chief Joseph Dreaver of the Mista-wasis band of Indians in Saskatchewan has been employed to survey the Indians of Saskatchewan in respect of their reactions and recommendations with regard to the findings of the joint committee of the Senate and House of Commons on Indian affairs, and that during the period of time the said Chief Dreaver was employed he would receive a total of $6,500 for his services. My question is, is the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration aware that the great bulk of Chief Dreaver's time in Saskatchewan was spent in organizing for the Tory party?


Richard Albert Bell: No, Mr. Speaker. (Translation):



NATIONAL REVENUE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Gilbert Rondeau (Shefford):: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Min-

ister of National Revenue. Is it true that receipts for publicity expenses connected with Moral Re-Armament are deductible for income tax purposes?


Mr. Speaker:: This question should be put on the order paper.



AGRICULTURE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Bernard Dumont (Bellechasse):: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Agriculture. In view of the fact that certain tariff restrictions are being lifted to ease the austerity program in regard to certain manufactured products, could the Minister of Agriculture tell us whether it would not be urgent to re-establish the premium on category A pork?
(Text):



FINANCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, just before the orders of the day are called I wonder if I may ask the Prime Minister whether he has yet been able, as he undertook to do last week, to ascertain from the royal commission on banking and finance whether they propose to hear any witnesses in camera.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I was not able to answer the question in the absence of the hon. member. Now that he is back I welcome him here in the chamber. I would say that I communicated with the commission and was advised that they intended to hold certain sittings in camera.



INQUIRY OF THE MINISTRY

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. A. Byrne (Kootenay East):: Mr. Speaker, because of the obvious friendliness towards the government of the corner of the house to my left, I should like to direct a question to the Prime Minister. Has his attention been drawn to the speech made by his supporter from Villeneuve in which he, in Montreal, compared fascism, communism and Conservatism, and was not able to tell which was the worst?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I would caution the hon. member.
Income Tax Act WAYS AND MEANS
The house in committee of ways and means, Mr. Chown in the chair.



INCOME TAX ACT

[Stage Direction]
Resolved,-that it is expedient to introduce a measure to amend the Income Tax Act to provide among other things:
1.	That for the 1962 and subsequent taxation years the amount deductible in computing taxable income in respect of a child qualified for family allowance be increased to $300 and the amount deductible in respect of other dependants be increased to $550 each.
2.	That with respect to income earned after March 31, 1962 a corporation whose principal business is manufacturing or processing (not including a corporation whose principal business is shipbuilding, mining, logging or the operation of oil or gas wells) be allowed to deduct from its tax otherwise payable an amount equal to 50 per cent of the tax on the first $50,000, of its taxable income attributable to increased sales and an amount equal to 25 per cent of the tax on the remainder of its taxable income so attributable.
3.	That with respect to its first taxation year ending after April 10, 1962 and the next succeeding four taxation years a corporation be permitted to deduct in computing income 150 per cent of the amount by which expenditures of a current and capital nature on scientific research in Canada incurred by it in the year exceed expenditures of a current and capital nature on scientific research in Canada incurred by it in its last taxation year ending on or before April 10, 1962.
4.	That for the 1962 to 1966 taxation years both inclusive the deduction from tax allowed to corporations in respect of taxable income earned in a province be increased from 9 per cent to 10 per cent in a prescribed province in which arrangements exist for the replacement of federal grants to universities by additional provincial grants in accordance with the proposed amendments to the Federal-Provincial Fiscal Arrangements Act.
5.	That with respect to taxation years commencing in 1962 a taxpayer be allowed a deduction from tax of an amount equal to the lesser of two-thirds of the amount payable for the year to a province as a tax on income from logging operations or § of 10 per cent of the taxpayer's income from logging operations in the province, and the right to deduct in computing income amounts paid to a province as tax on income from logging operations be repealed.
6.	That with respect to expenses incurred after April 10, 1962 any corporation be allowed to deduct in computing income the drilling and exploration expenses, including all general geological and geophysical expenses, incurred by it on or in respect of exploring or drilling for petroleum or natural gas in Canada and the prospecting, exploration and development expenses incurred by it in searching for minerals in Canada not exceeding its income for the year from oil or gas wells in Canada.
7.	That with respect to expenses incurred after April 10, 1962 an individual be allowed to deduct in computing income the drilling and exploration expenses, including all general geological and geophysical expenses, incurred by him on or in respect of exploring or drilling for petroleum or natural gas in Canada not exceeding his income for the year from oil or gas wells in Canada.
8.	That with respect to acquisitions after April 10, 1962 amounts paid by
(a)	a corporation whose principal business is production, refining or marketing of petroleum, petroleum products or natural gas, or exploring or drilling for petroleum or natural gas, or mining or exploring for minerals,
[Stage Direction]
Income Tax Act
(b)	an association, partnership or syndicate formed for the purpose of exploring or drilling for petroleum or natural gas,
(c)	a corporation (other than a corporation that qualifies under (a)), or
(d)	an individual for a right, licence or privilege to explore for, drill, or take petroleum or natural gas in Canada shall be classed as drilling or exploration expenses for purposes of computing deductions from income.
9.	That with respect to sales of property acquired after April 10, 1962 there shall be included in the income of a taxpayer any amount received as consideration for the disposition of a right, licence or privilege to explore for, drill for or take petroleum or natural gas except where the right, licence or privilege was acquired by inheritance or bequest.
10.	That the right of a successor corporation to deduct drilling, exploration, prospecting and development expenses incurred by a predecessor corporation from the income of the successor corporation attributable to the production of petroleum or natural gas from wells, or the production of minerals from mines, situated on property acquired from the predecessor corporation shall not be lost by reason of the fact that the successor corporation assumed liabilities of the predecessor corporation.
11.	That a joint exploration corporation may renounce an appropriate share of the drilling, exploration, prospecting and development expenses incurred by it after 1956 in searching for oil, gas or minerals in Canada in favour of a shareholder corporation whose principal business is
(a)	production, refining or marketing of petroleum, petroleum products or natural gas, or exploring or drilling for petroleum or natural gas,
(b)	mining or exploring for minerals,
(c)	processing mineral ores for the purpose of recovering metals therefrom,
(d)	a combination of
(i)	processing mineral ores for the purpose of recovering metals therefrom, and
(ii)	processing metals recovered from the ores so processed, or
(e)	fabricating metals,
and in such case the expenses renounced shall be deductible by the shareholder corporation and not by the joint exploration corporation.
12.	That the right of a successor corporation to deduct drilling, exploration, prospecting and development expenses incurred by a predecessor corporation from the income of the successor corporation attributable to the production of petroleum or natural gas from wells, or the production of minerals from mines, situated on property acquired from the predecessor corporation be extended to a second successor corporation which has acquired the property from a predecessor corporation which was itself a successor corporation.
13.	That for the 1962 and subsequent taxation years income earned in Canada by a non-resident corporation whose principal business is mining iron ore in Canada, be exempt from the additional 15 per cent tax imposed by Part IIIA on profits earned in Canada by non-resident corporations.
14.	That where an employee who is a member of one deferred profit sharing plan becomes a member of another deferred profit sharing plan the amount to his credit in the first mentioned plan may be transferred to his credit in the second mentioned plan without attracting tax on the amount so transferred.
15.	That the amount to the credit of an annuitant under a registered retirement savings plan may be transferred at any time before the maturity of the plan to another registered retirement savings plan or to a registered pension fund or plan without attracting tax on the amount so transferred.
(Translation):
Mr. Perron:: Mr. Chairman, I was saying

at the end of my remarks, last night, that it was most urgently necessary that the twenty fifth parliament see to it, through its sovereign authority over its own institutions, that the Bank of Canada create credit and offer municipalities, which greatly need it, the means to borrow the necessary funds to carry out works essential in most of our communities.
When I am saying this, I am referring to the fact that in my own riding, for instance, most of the parishes which accepted the offer made last winter by the federal and provincial governments under the winter works program, had to float a heavy loan-in my own parish the loan was $90,000. The balance, after payment of borrowing costs, was $82,000, which was used to buy the materials required for the project. Once again, this year, an important part of the budgets of the municipalities will be earmarked for payment of interest on work carried out last winter, and for the next 25 years, the property owners in St. Joseph de Beauce will have to pay taxes or interest to financiers. Most of our municipalities now resort to winter works. But as they must purchase materials from companies, the federal and provincial governments collect over 11 per cent in manufacturing taxes, which is more than the amount of wages which the municipalities have to pay for carrying out municipal winter works.
It is also urgent, I think, that we take the necessary steps in order to promote the setting up of Canadian companies for the processing of our raw materials at home. Our country is rich with raw materials of all kinds. In the past few years a number of projects for the processing of our raw materials were submitted in the province of Quebec, such as a steel mill, for instance. We have all the labour force we need. There probably will be one million unemployed persons next winter.
Labour and material are available but these industries never become a reality in our province; they never go beyond the project stage. The province of Quebec, in co-operation with the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources (Mr. Dinsdale), could take steps to facilitate the provision of the funds required for the establishment of companies which would process our primary products instead of selling them as raw material to our southern neighbours, who after transforming them, sell them back to us at excessive prices, for we have to pay the added customs duty, taxes and import surcharges besides the cost of American labour.

For instance, I remember having learned in grade school that 75 per cent of the asbestos consumed throughout the world came from the province of Quebec, from the eastern townships area where Beauce county is located. If we consider that 75 per cent of the asbestos consumed and used in the whole world comes from our own province, would it not be time that Canadian companies obtained capital more easily in order to set up in our area industries which could manufacture, finish and process this raw material locally, instead of having trade imbalances which led to discussions of several days? Our trade relations with our neighbours to the south would not be adversely affected and we might have a favourable trade balance and thus enable the Canadian people to share in this wealth that belongs to them, the wealth of their own natural resources.
Mr. Chairman, I understand that several people are upset when there is a question of using the Bank of Canada to help obtain the credit required for processing our primary products in this country. Yet, we should not forget that tomorrow's economy will have to be a distributive economy, which will consist in distributing today's abundance without planning, because in this day and age new developments and science make production easy and fast.
We need a distributive economy which will take into account the purpose of industrial production in this country, as well as the necessity of processing our primary resources, as I said a moment ago, so as to put an end to our being controlled by international trade and foreign profiteers. In so doing, industry will be put back in its right place, in spite of what our socialist friends are thinking who state that the sole means to reach full employment in a country is planning.
We must give back to industry its true function, which is to produce the consumers' goods which the people need. Therefore, when speaking of a distributive economy, and of the Social Credit doctrine, which would help distribute abundance, I am thinking of the consumer, the ever-forgotten man in our Canadian economy, and it is on his behalf that we must work, through the distributive economy I just mentioned.
Mr. Chairman, if we study the information tabled in the house with regard to social legislation which now apply for the benefit of part of our population, I am of the opinion that the time has come to improve that legislation. It is true that in some circles nobody knows how to call the family allowances,
Income Tax Act
which were commonly called the "baby bonus for the Quebec people", but we must admit that they are a fundamental principle of distributive economy, which consists in recognizing to the fathers and mothers in this country the right to part of the wealth of their country, so as to enable them to have some bread on their plates.
Therefore, if the principle of helping large families to a better standard of living in this country of wealth and abundance is accepted one day, a comparison of living costs in 1945, when that legislation was passed, to those of today reveals that it is high time to double the rate of family allowances and to extend the age limit for the beneficiaries.
My fellow member for Lapointe (Mr. Gregoire) suggested yesterday that we should help our young people get a better education by attending institutions of higher learning. Well, let us help educate those young people by letting them benefit from family allowances to a greater extent, by raising allowance rates while extending the age limit of beneficiaries to the whole schooling period.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: That is the Liberal party's program.


Gérard Perron: And now, Mr. Chairman, I should like to say a word about social security measures. Since the present generation is now benefiting from the results that its predecessors have obtained through their efforts, their development of natural resources and their progress in the field of science, is it not time to think a little about our old people, those who have laboured for 10, 20, 30, 40 and even 50 years in this country and who, often, having reached 60 years of age, are poorer than they were when they started to work at 16? Indeed, it is time we should think about those citizens.
When I talk about improving old age security pensions, I wish incidentally to thank the government for having increased the rate from $55 to $65, but I think that is not adequate today, if we take into account the cost of living. The age of the beneficiaries, either of universal pension at 70 years of age or of old age assistance at 65, with a means test, should be revised.
Mr. Chairman, we know that on account of the surplus labour now at our disposal in this country many heads of families of 35, 40 and 50 years of age, who have dependants, are now unemployed, because older persons are in absolute need of earning their living, since they are poorer now than they were 20


The Chairman:: Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member but his time has expired.


Mr. Mather:: Mr. Chairman, the basis of our ways and means discussion seems to me to come down very simply to a consideration of how the government gets its revenue and what it does with it? To judge this we must have a perspective of the larger situation and consider the condition of the country which supplies and uses the revenue. In Canada today, Mr. Chairman, we suffer from division. This is the land of the great divide.
We are divided by great distances; we are divided physically by the great lakes, great prairies, great mountain ranges, two great languages, four great political parties and eleven great governments. Again we are divided further by our three levels of

administration, federal, provincial and municipal, and the basic rules for these last divisions were laid down so many years ago that they have less and less relation to the facts of life in 1962 and consequently condemn the taxpayers to friction, inefficiency, waste and frustration.
There are not many stories told about Canadians. We are not identifiable joke-wise as are the big Texans and the canny Scots, but I heard a joke the other day with reference to the matter under discussion here which I think more or less identifies the Canadian characteristic. There were an Englishman, an American, a Frenchman and a Canadian each of whom was asked to write an essay on the subject of the elephant. The Englishman wrote on the subject under the heading "The elephant and the British Commonwealth;" the American wrote under the heading "Bigger and better elephants;" the Frenchman wrote on "The elephant and sex," and the Canadian wrote under the heading "The elephant: Is it a provincial or federal responsibility."
Mr. Chairman, it seems to me the time has come when we should give greater leadership towards ending this elephantine situation which divides Canadians at the three levels of administration, and we advocate immediate federal leadership towards realigning the confused administrative responsibilities at those levels.
Also, Mr. Chairman, we democrats point to another thing which divides us and renders all plans for a prosperous economy very difficult of attainment. This is the economic division of the country. We believe in democratic, economic planning for the welfare of all. We do not believe it is economic democracy when we have in Canada approximately 15 per cent of the population owning or controlling approximately 85 per cent of the wealth of the country, while 85 per cent of the population exists on approximately 15 per cent of the wealth.
A change is needed in this situation, a change towards planned, efficient development of our natural resources, and also a change is needed in the use which we make of our finance. Obviously what is physically possible in 1962 should also be financially possible.
We find in Canada today that 91 per cent of all Canadians, who are of age to do so, own no stocks at all. We find that 7 per cent of Canadians own less than $5,000 worth of stocks, and 2 per cent of the population own all the remaining stocks. Against this background let us examine the state of our revenues and expenditures so that we can understand the government's problems. Let us examine them as best we may, or as far as 27507-3-57
Income Tax Act
we can see them, because from what the Minister of Finance shows us in his periodic fiscal strip-tease it is very hard to see what they are.
As to the immediate nature of our ways and means, we find that in the largest economy move $85 million has been trimmed from defence spending as part of the effort to balance the books, an effort which has failed by something on the order of half a billion dollars. As my colleague from Na-naimo-Cowichan-The Islands said yesterday, this $85 million represents merely 5 per cent of what we are spending on defence. We are still pouring out over $1.5 billion on defence after the 5 per cent has been trimmed off, and according to the Toronto Globe and Mail we are not even saving $85 million, we are just $25 million below the actual defence spending of the previous period.
This is at a time when what the world needs is an example in peace and disarmament. It is at a time when more and more experts tell us there is no defence left in the nuclear world. This is at a time when we have staring us in the face an example of the futility of nuclear armaments to add one iota to the defence or security of an individual state or the world as a whole. It should now be obvious that nuclear armaments reduce security and add to the threat of international conflagration in direct line with the number of states which possess nuclear arms.
It is difficult enough for us to escape a nuclear international explosion if the states which possess nuclear arms are limited to three or four; but when 10, 20 or 30 states are given or secure nuclear arms then the likelihood of an explosion becomes more and more probable. I make these references to the futility of this country accepting or seeking nuclear arms, of course in line with our budget discussion, because the cost of such arms in dollars and cents will add stupendously to the load which our taxpayers will have to meet.
It should be interesting to the taxpayers of Canada to notice that at this time we are spending on so-called defence more than our combined federal expenditures on agriculture, fisheries, forestry, justice, labour, unemployment insurance, external affairs, the postal service and all public works at the federal level.
I say that since it has been possible for us to take a second look at defence expenditure and trim it by 5 per cent, then let us take a third look at the same item and trim it by a substantial worth-while amount. Then let us apply that saving to public benefit, either through the reduction of taxes at the middle

Income Tax Act
and lower levels of income, or through the payments of some of our debts, thus easing some of the crushing burden of interest, or through the establishment of a revolving credit fund by which the provinces and municipalities will be able to finance, at minimum rates, the carrying out of all those useful, publicly necessary projects which have been eliminated or postponed by the present misguided austerity program.
We of the New Democratic party hold both old line parties responsible for the sorry mess which we are in economically and financially, because it is the result not of five or ten years but comes near the close of 100 years of alternate Liberal-Conservative administration. Constructive expenditures on housing, schools, hospitals, and roads would bring back multiplied revenue to the treasury through the increased employment and increased industry which it would create. The treasury would benefit, it would not lose.
Specifically I advocate the imposition of a capital gains tax on stock market speculation profits. I have in my hand a leaflet put out by Argus Securities Limited of Vancouver, who are stock and bond people, which says:
Are you looking for tax free profits?
It goes on:
Canada is one of the few countries in the world where millions of dollars can be made in the stock market without paying a cent in capital gains taxes. Thousands of traders and speculators from all over have made fortunes in past years and will continue to do so because of our nation's unlimited wealth and natural resources. Find the easy way to get that extra cash, tax free. What you make you keep, all of it.
That document speaks for itself. I have no comment to make on it. I merely quote it to underline my contention that we are not acting intelligently or in the interests of Canada when we allow speculators to get off scot free with their gambling winnings in our stock markets. Let us have a capital gains tax on stock market speculations.
In regard to another aspect of our tax system, it is said that one reason why millions of Canadians have left our country for the United States is the extra inducement which that country holds out to them in the way of the realistic tax recognition it gives to the ordinary man's income and expenditures. It is a fact that in the United States the interest portion of all home mortgage payments, sometimes totalling hundreds of dollars a year, is deductible from income tax. The income on mortgage payments is reckoned separately and is filed by the income tax payer for deduction purposes.
The same thing applies to property purchases of any kind on the instalment plan. The United States treasury department
[Mr. Mather.l
exempts from taxation interest charges which are made on the instalment plan for the purchase of cars, radios, television sets, washers and furniture. The effect of this over the years has been, on the one hand to encourage the building or owning and furnishing of the family home, which is a vital unit in our way of life, and on the other to increase constructive industrial and commercial activity, and add to the employment of all kinds in many types of related business.
Mr. Chairman, I believe we would have a healthier country and a healthier treasury today if the following steps were taken. First, give leadership to this divided country toward realigning our maladjusted economic and administrative functions on the basis of 1962 rather than 1867. Second, take a hard, third look at defence spending and making a substantial saving in the hundreds of millions of dollars still being spent on that dubious item. Third, institute a capital gains tax on stock market speculative profits and exempt the interest portion of home and property instalment buying. Fourth, use all our energies to assist planning in the international as well as the internal sphere, whereby order will be brought out of the welter of trading and financial confusion that exists today.
In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, let me say that in my view there is a large section of thinking people in every political party in Canada today which favours Canada's making a very much enlarged contribution to the efforts of the United Nations and all its activities, toward the establishment of collective security.
(Translation):


Mr.   Legate@: 
An hon. Member:: Shame.


Mr. Legare:: And that is not all. Since September 15, purebred cattle breeders whose herds were certified against t.b. and checked free every year by federal veterinarians must keep their certification, have a private vet-

Income Tax Act
erinarian make tuberculine tests and pay tor his services. And the cost of keeping that certification is at the prorata of the number of heads in the herd of the breeder concerned. In the lower St. Lawrence region, nearly 150 breeders are affected.
And the minister also makes known a reduction of more than $1 million in government subsidies for the purchase of farm lime. Our soils are poor, our farmers want to enrich them to increase their production, and the government has no other answer than to reduce its assistance by $1 million. Also, the government has decided, through the Minister of Agriculture, that not a cent will be spent in the east of the country this year, for land drainage, irrigation works, etc.
In addition, the minister stated, a few days ago, that he would reduce support prices for dairy products if farmers did not cut their production voluntarily. In other words, he asks the farmers to kill their cows or to milk them once every two or three days. And he seems to think the thing possible. He threatens the farmers by announcing that if they do not cut their production voluntarily he will cut the support prices.
Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Agriculture is having a good laugh at eastern farmers. He announces with a great blowing of trumpets, that he will apply the ARDA plan, a legislation which has been discussed for the past four years, and on the other hand, without any previous announcement, he proceeds for instance, with all the cuts I just mentioned and a great many others which have not yet come out. The ARDA program will be paid for by the farmers themselves because the Minister of Agriculture said that, this year, he would spend $700,000 under that legislation, and the cuts in his budget will give him much more than that. One of my farmers told me during the week end, that he called the month of September, when the Minister of Agriculture made most of his decisions, "black September". I think he was right.
But the minister is always serene, always genial. He doesn't seem to realize the consequences of his action and that of his department. Do you know what the Minister of Agriculture reminds me of? He reminds me of that boxer who was saved by the bell; only, in his case, he was saved by the Chinese communists.
All those unfortunate, discouraging and depressing decisions were taken since the minister has appointed an assistant for eastern Canada, the hon. member for Joliette-L'Assomption-Montcalm (Mr. Pigeon). This means sacrificing a whole class of our society for a mess of pottage. And the hon. member for Joliette-L'Assomption-Montcalm seemed so smug, that he even declared in the house, in his speech on the address in reply:
It is the first time that a French Canadian holds such a post lor that department.
He meant that he was parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Agriculture. And, further on, on the same page, he said:
I shall thus have the opportunity ol being of greater service to the farmers of my country, to my fellow citizens in eastern Canada.
That is how, and I am recalling this for the benefit of my hon. friends opposite, the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Agriculture wants to improve the farming situation in eastern Canada, that is by cutting or curtailing all grants which might help the farmer class. AH the decisions I just mentioned, and many others which will be taken in the near future, or have been taken by the Minister of Agriculture and his parliamentary secretary, will have the result of discouraging the farmers. Therefore, I ask the members from the province of Quebec whether they are pleased today with their Minister of Agriculture, and I hope that if they did not have an opportunity of expressing themselves, they will do so before this discussion ends.
The hon. member for Nicolet-Yamaska (Mr. Vincent), made the following statement in this house, on October 18, as found on page 664 of Hansard:
We, the Conservatives, are always practical people.
And he went on to say:
We know there is always room for improvement. .. improvements which we continually introduce because we can depend on the co-operation of a Minister of Agriculture who understands the needs of the eastern farmers-
Well, I wonder if he is still able to repeat the statement that he made right here in this house on October 18, in the light of the decisions taken by his minister, which will deeply affect agriculture in the province of Quebec, especially by discouraging a great number of farmers' sons who wanted to take over from their fathers. Such is not the case of the hon. member for Matapedia-Matane (Mr. Belzile) who gloated over the statements of the hon. member for Bonaventure (Mr. Bechard). He attempted to prove that the soil of the Gaspe peninsula is not suitable for farming, when those people are working

steadily from morning till night to earn their living from that soil. Moreover, according to page 718 of Hansard, the member for Mata-pedia-Matane stated:
I would like to congratulate the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Hamilton) for his obvious dedication to the agricultural class.
But all these cuts in the budget, in all the items, will surely discourage the farmers.
And a little later, the hon. member stated that his Minister of Agriculture was kind-hearted. I can understand that he is kind-hearted, since he has taken him along to Rome for three weeks; however, I would rather see him display his kindheartedness for the farmers in the province of Quebec, many of whom will not be able to pass through the hardship that is now brought upon them.
And what do we find in the speech from the throne? We find the following:
The prosperity of agriculture remains essential to the well-being of the entire Canadian economy.
Mr. Chairman, those are fine words placed in the mouth of the representative of Her Majesty, but they are in direct contradiction with the facts and the unfortunate decisions of the Minister of Agriculture. And a little further, in the same speech from the throne, the government directs the representative of the Queen to say:
My ministers recognize that livestock is occupying a position of increasing importance in Canadian agriculture. They propose that a program be instituted to ensure the availability of storage facilities and continuity of supplies of feed grain to match the expanding requirements for livestock production, particularly in the areas of British Columbia and eastern Canada where supplies of feed grain are normally deficient.
Well, Mr. Chairman, at the very moment when those words were being spoken in the upper house, the Minister of Agriculture and his Quebec parliamentary secretary were cutting down the appropriations ordinarily provided for that purpose. This means, therefore, that the government will do less in that field, this year, than it has done in the past, while in the speech from the throne, it indicates it will do more.
Again, a little further, in the same speech from the throne, we note the following:
The program of rehabilitation and development of agricultural lands is proceeding actively and you will be asked to provide funds for it.
But we shall be called upon to vote reduced funds. So, how can you expect that the development of lands may be carried on more actively in 1962-63 than it has been in
Income Tax Act
previous years, when farmers will have less credit at their disposal?
A little further in the speech from the throne we note the following:
Legislation will be proposed to enlarge the funds of the Farm Credit Corporation, and allow greater flexibility in their use.
Mr. Chairman, that measure has been submitted to the house in the form of a resolution. Here is what is intended:	reduce
premiums, subsidies and assistance measures. Now, since farmers won't be able to live otherwise than by contracting more debts, money will be lent to them at 5 per cent. And, with supreme irony, the Minister of Agriculture is announcing a national conference on agricultural apprenticeship, which is to be held this fall.
Mr. Chairman, how can our young people, those who have an agricultural vocation and who are about to inherit from their fathers, how can they have a rosy view of life?
What encouragement can they expect to get from this government which has made them pay for its extravagances, mistakes and lack of practical sense, in a situation calling for greater state assistance?
Mr. Chairman, I hope I have said enough to bring back the minister to better feelings, and convince him to review his policy. I would ask him to urge his leader to look elsewhere and not in the farmer's pockets for the money he will need to bring his deficit down to $540 million.
And if the minister cannot find, within his own party, a member fit to replace his parliamentary secretary from Quebec, because I suppose that, the present situation being what it is, the latter will have no choice but to abandon his post, if, I repeat, the minister is having some difficulty in finding among his friends a replacement for the hon. member for Joliette-L'Assomption-Montcalm, I hope he will not hesitate to take into consideration the sensible advice given him by members from this side of the house and especially by those who had the privilege of belonging to a government which, until 1957, gave agriculture a great deal of prosperity.
Before closing, Mr. Chairman, I must truly say that the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Agriculture should relinquish his post, if he does not wish to see his own electors asking him to do so.
I am not suggesting that he resign as member, for he is part of a government and I feel that a government should somehow reflect its members. He fits into the Con-

Income Tax Act
servative party and I believe he should remain there. But I do not think he is fit to be parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Agriculture, especially when one considers what the government intends to do to remedy an already sad situation which will be aggravated by the reduction of expenditures, those very estimates which were a source of hope for our farmers and on which they counted to balance their budgets.
Mr. Chairman, before I resume my seat, I ask once again that the Minister of Agriculture reconsider the situation, particularly the estimates of his department. I wonder if it would not be better if he asked the government to extend the austerity program by three or four days, so that he could not only recuperate the money that is to be taken away from him but also prevent the agricultural class from suffering more than it has during five years.


Mr. Ouellel:: Mr. Chairman, I am pleased to take part in this debate on the revised estimates, since the discussion is about money and since Canadians are interested in knowing how they will be saturated and strained.
In looking over the statistics concerning the national debt, I would be very happy to direct some questions to Liberal hon. members who administered public affairs during 22 years.
Mr. Chairman, it is easy to find fault with the policy of the party in power, but if the estimates before us are so large and place such a burden on the people of Canada, it is not indeed because of a situation which has developed overnight.
I know that some of them will say it was caused by war expenditures. Very well. However, they could not be better administrators after-


An hon. Member:: That was proven.


André Ouellet: We shall come to that, do not worry. We shall set it straight together.
Mr. Chairman, if we study the figures given to us on October 17 last when I asked what the debt of Canada was towards other countries and what amounts were due to us, we notice some quite frightening things. As a matter of fact, on December 31, 1960, the United States owed us $3.6 billion, the United Kingdom $1.5 billion and other countries, $1.9 billion. But that table is not quite so interesting when it indicates that in 1960, we owed the United States $18.1 billion, the United Kingdom $3.6 billion and other countries, $2.8 billion.

Mr. Chairman, I cannot quite understand that situation. If I am not mistaken, it was said that we had granted Great Britain a credit of about $7.5 billion. I cannot conceive how we made loans to that country at an interest rate of 2 per cent while we still owe the United Kingdom $3.6 billion. Yet, the matter of interest rates is one which should concern the administrators of this country.
It is absurd to get only 2 per cent interest from a country on a loan of $1 billion and be compelled today, because of the austerity program, to pay 6.2 per cent interest to the same country in a loan of $600 million made to us. As Canada's administrators, we shall claim exactly the same interest rates we are paying, that is, starting today, we shall ask these large countries to pay us the difference between 6.2 per cent we are paying and the 2 per cent we get from them.


An hon. Member:: The Conservatives are responsible for that.


André Ouellet: Those responsible for the debt are on this side.


Mr. Drouin:: Mr. Chairman, may I direct a question to the hon. member?


André Ouellet: Wait till I have finished my speech; you may then ask all the questions you want.


Vincent Drouin: I am making a note of that.


André Ouellet: Yes, you can ask as many questions as you want.
Mr. Chairman, if Canada owes $26 billion to foreigners and if its assets outside the country total only $9 billion, we must admit that the situation is not very encouraging.
The figures show that the gross debt amounts to $22.9 billion. That is really something. Are we to blame the Conservatives and say that they accumulated that debt during the last five years? I do not think so. They will undoubtedly be able to take care of themselves, but they need not worry because I have a few words to say to them.
If we add to the national debt of $22 billion, the municipal debt which exceeds $4 billion, the provincial debt which exceeds $4.1 billion, the school board debt which amount to $4,175 billion, and the $722 million owed by private citizens either to banks or to finance companies, on October 19, 1962, the total is staggering. Furthermore, if we take into account the $1,698 billion, or nearly $1.7 billion, in the books of the Central Mortgage

and Housing Corporation, it is not surprising that we are living in a period that can be called a period of austerity, especially in view of the way we administer our finances.
One thing has been left out and I should like to hear some explanations in due course. Our central bank bears the name of Bank of Canada, but there is proof that it has never been at the service of Canada; it has worked only in the service of international finance, for foreigners and international transactions.
That is the principle opposed by Social Crediters because, even though we live in Canada today, we are not, in fact, master in our own country. Proof to bear out that statement is plentiful.
A former member of the Liberal party, who died last December, unfortunately, dissociated himself from his party during the war, because he felt that Canada was doing more than it could afford. However, we have today the evidence that we have done things for which we have to suffer the consequences. We did not win the war and we became friends with the Russians whom we shall have to fight some day. These are the results of our policy since 1939.
I believe that in 1939-and somebody will correct me if I am wrong-the debt was not much over $2 billion, when today we see debts piling up one on top of the other and always with foreigners.
I apologize for speaking In such a way, Mr. Chairman, but as Canadians we have served the interests of the imperialists instead of our own and today, they are simply transferred to our neighbours to the south, namely the Americans, who control about 85 per cent of our finances and industry.
We are not master in our country but we still have here everything we need to solve all our problems, and we must remember that we should have had some help from the Bank of Canada.
How can you explain that a loan is good for the Americans and other foreign countries, since it bears interest at 6 per cent, is not good for Canadians, under the same terms and simply with administration costs? We would certainly have the same results.
If we consider the total of our debts we notice that more than half of our income is used up just to pay interest to foreigners working against us.
Income Tax Act
I have here a report that I received at noon. It shows the unfortunate results of the last two wars, as it deals with 155,000 persons receiving a pension as a result of war injury. These people answered the call of their country and they have the right to live. However, in a country such as ours, I believe that we are overburdened with payments of all sorts.
In my opinion, if we pursue such a policy, whether we want it or not, a day will come, when the Canadian people will ask for a rendering of accounts.
That is exactly how certain democracies were lost, just because of irresponsible action on the part of their governments.
That is what the Minister of Justice (Mr. Fleming) accomplished by working in the interest of foreign countries when he held the finance portfolio in 1958. The Canadian people had painstakingly bought $6 billion worth of victory bonds bearing 3 per cent interest and becoming due a certain number of years later. What did the minister of finance do then? He converted those $6.5 billion worth of bonds and, according to newspaper reports, this operation cost Canada over $400 million.
However, the worse part of It is that the bonds that the people had to convert are now in the hands of financiers. The latter were given a reward of 3 to 4.5 per cent which cost Canadian taxpayers more than $90 million a year.
And yet, there are those who would have us believe that that was good administration. Well, let me tell you one thing. I, for one. think quite the opposite. I see things exactly as they happened.
The house is concerned with present events in Cuba. But what have we, Canadians, done? We have spent our time undertaking crusades abroad, very often in places where we had no business to be. And today, we are surprised at having to pay the consequences and at being in debt.
Those wars cost Canadian taxpayers over $50 billion. Why, I ask you?
Today, we are on the brink of bankruptcy, and what do we have to show for it?
I do not want to raise the racial issue because we are all Canadians whether we come from Newfoundland, Vancouver or the

Income Tax Act
province of Quebec. We want just one thing, and that is to live with all the other Canadians, no matter what their language or their race. We want to be Canadians first and before all, in the interest of Canada.
I live in the province of Quebec, and I cannot commend the federal government because we, French Canadians, have never been treated as we should have been. Now, there is some surprise to hear talk about separatism. Hon. members, if the French Canadians are not treated differently from now on and if the rights of the province of Quebec are ignored, separatism will become a reality one of these days.
I am not a separatist because, as Canadians, we have absolutely nothing to gain from separatism; but there is a limit to what people can stand. That is the situation at the present time.
I have here in my hand figures concerning my constituency and I see that during the last ten years more than 5,000 employees in the textile industry were laid off for the only reason that textile products are imported from foreign countries. Why is my region always the victim of the trade we make with other countries? I think that it should be another region's turn. Besides, it is clear that those foreign manufactures pay starvation wages and quite often their labour conditions are unreasonable.
The same conditions exist in agriculture. If industry does not pay high enough wages, the farmers in its neighbourhood cannot live either. At present, I think that the whole population in Canada-whatever is their mother tongue-think exactly the same way as I do, that the administration caters only to the big financiers of Canada or of foreign countries.
Today we are told that the doctrine put forward by Social Crediters, will bring about inflation. This makes me laugh.
I will describe a case which happened under the present administration, because we are not in office. About four months ago, the authorities of the city of Montreal called tenders from the Imperial Oil Company and others for 2 million gallons of gas to be used in its motor vehicles. What happened? This gas was sold at 12.89 cents a gallon while we pay 45 cents for it. If this transaction is examined in more detail, it will be discovered that after deducting income tax and municipal taxes this company can put money away for the future.

Therefore, it is imposition and taxes that cause inflation. What is the use imitating the ostrich and hiding our heads in the sand? The time has come for this government to change its policy. Let the government of Canada take back the power it gave to the Bank of Canada, let it lend money to Canadians without interest at cost only. Let the government lend funds, as many suggested before me, without charging interest, and only at cost, to cities, municipalities, school boards and provinces without infringing on their rights.
I am wondering whether we are going to keep on implementing the kind of economic policies we have at present.
Canadians should enjoy a tax reduction as my colleague stated. It would be easy with the income of the government to grant total exemption to all heads of family earning less than $5,000, and to all single taxpayers with incomes less than $3,000. It would be possible to grant increased old age pensions at age 65. Let us not forget that we have been generous with foreign countries, that we have in many instances welcomed as official guests honourable mendicants. We have been most generous to some foreigners, and, in my opinion, the Canadian people deserve an explanation from the government in this connection.
The Prime Minister's stand at the prime ministers' conference on the common market, which was held in England, was criticized. I am not competent to discuss such matters, but yet, one thing that surprised me is that the Prime Minister forgot that Canada has been independent since 1931, through the Westminster Statute, and that we were therefore entitled to make our own decisions. I actually admired the Prime Minister's response, but I blame him for not having had such thoughts before. Should he have thought that way we would probably not be in the situation we are now.
Now let us pass on to a matter I did not mention earlier. About the rights of minorities, anyone who comes to my town where there are French and English speaking people, all equally friendly to me and some of them my customers, people I see every day, is able to notice that those people know how to achieve national unity. If you want to learn the mechanics of national unity come to my riding and you will learn a wonderful lesson.

All these people were born in England, and oddly enough, we get along very well together. I believe that some people in this house are greater imperialists than the king himself. This often proved to be the case in the past. Some newsmen say that our system is topsy-turvy, but what ideas and policies have they upheld until now? They have defended a financial policy which is bad for Canada, and tried to have us believe that it was excellent.
At least, we have the courage to suggest something new. Give it a try, and if it does not work, then we shall see, but for Heaven's sake, give it a try, for we know that the old systems do not work. They are old, broken down horses.
Let me only quote a few words by Mr. Sales, the former president of the Ford Motor Company of Canada who said, two years ago, speaking before the Toronto board of trade:
Do away with politicians and economists and Canada will be a new country tomorrow.
And then, some people are surprised to see that some Canadians are unsatisfied. Frankly, 1 think some people do not catch on very quickly. A day will come when the people of Canada will claim their financial rights. Nobody ever claimed any such right before.
We are not blaming the members because, after all, they were elected by the people. We are gathered here, 265 strong, to watch over the nation and settle its financial problems. When you meet members of the other parties in the corridors, they will confess that they have no money, that they cannot even settle their own financial problems. Why should we side with their brand of politics and deceive 18 million Canadians? There is something wrong in your political system.
I have just received the economic policy of the present administration and that of the hon. members of the opposition who preceded them. Let us now turn to another point. The Prime Minister with all his responsibilities is paid $37,000 a year. Then, the presi-den of the C.N.R. gets $50,000 a year plus travelling expenses, and in the past five years he has been presenting us with deficits totalling $60 million. There was another man who received $50,000 a year, he was the president of the Bank of Canada. When he no longer was the right man, the hon. gentlemen opposite tried to dismiss him. So the 27507-3-58
Family Allowances
Leader of the Opposition resorted to the bill of rights in order to keep a man who earned $50,000 a year, while 500,000 unemployed in this country had to go to bed without any supper. However, nobody finds time to stand up for the little fellow.


An hon. Member:: Demagogy.


André Ouellet: They call that demagogy, but it is the truth and I challenge you to prove me wrong. Besides, it is only the big shots, the administrators who call it demagogy. You were a member of parliament-and I challenge you to prove me wrong-when the bill of rights was invoked.
Mr. Chairman, in view of all those facts, I believe that the Canadian government should take a closer look at the situation and act accordingly.
(Text):


The Deputy Chairman:: Order. So that the house may proceed to the consideration of private members' business, pursuant to section 3 of standing order 15 it is my duty to rise, report progress and request leave to sit again later this day or at the next sitting of the house as the case may be.
Progress reported.


The Speaker:: It being five o'clock in the afternoon, the house will now proceed to the consideration of private members' business as listed on today's order paper, namely notices of motions.
(Translation):



FAMILY ALLOWANCES


Mr. Guy Marcoux (Quebec-Monlmorency) moved:: That, in the opinion of this house, the government should give consideration to amending the Family Allowances Act to provide that, when otherwise qualified, a child shall not be deprived of allowance during a temporary period of absence from Canada while his parents are in attendance at an educational institution.
Mr. Speaker, my explanation will be brief. The motion refers to Canadian families who in order to get an education, at the university or other level, and for some reason or other, have to live abroad. We all know that most of these people have reached a certain age, that they even have children. When they have to go to a foreign country to complete their education, they are deprived at once of the urgently needed family allowances.
I know of several cases, but I shall only tell you of one which is nevertheless quite

Family Allowances
typical. It concerns Canadian citizens of Dutch extraction who had to go to the United States in order to further their studies in their own language. While in the United States, the children lost their eligibility to family allowances, under section 4, paragraph 2(b), which provides that allowances are stopped as soon as a child is no longer a resident of Canada.
Therefore, in order to help the families of our young people who must go to school abroad for various reasons, either for a matter of language, as in this case, or simply for reasons of personal education, we thought that it might be advisable to put a special provision into the act so that those children could keep on getting family allowances even though they reside outside Canada.
I have no other explanation to give. I know that this matter comes under the purview of the Minister of National Health and Welfare (Mr. Monteith); maybe he has certain projects under way in that respect. In any case, I feel this motion should be considered in order to assist a number of our fellow citizens who must go abroad to complete their education.
(Text):


Mr. E. A. Winkler (Grey-Bruce):: Having listened to the hon. member who introduced the resolution I feel that possibly his motivation for coming forward with it emanates from knowledge of specific cases of the kind he mentioned. However, when one looks at the terms of the resolution, in my opinion it could go much beyond its present scope. I may say I have had many thoughts on this matter since becoming a member of the house but I believe it is wise for us to bear in mind-I say this prior to the points I wish to make-that at the present time the taxpayer is footing a bill in round figures of more than $540 million. That is something which is all too often overlooked when we consider measures such as this.
Nevertheless, Mr. Speaker, I feel the case which has been made is a very valid one and deserves consideration. I have no doubt about that, but as we think of the different methods we are using to encourage people, particularly young people, to stay at school, we must realize there are other areas in which we could project our thinking. Like the hon. member who introduced the motion, I too am thinking of specific cases as well as the general good.
It may be time when we should consider the extension of family allowances beyond the present age limit, as an inducement to those young people already academically qualified to extend their qualifications in our

educational institutions, particularly in the case of families who find it difficult to support and provide them with the further training they may require.
Another consideration is the extension of the current hospitalization scheme so far as the federal government is concerned. I am aware of the fact that in some provinces, at least in one other province apart from the one in which I live, this is a matter which is taken care of at present, and there are very worthy measures respecting family allowances and hospitalization for parents of dependent children to help them provide further facilities of education to their children.
It may not seem very important but, like the hon. member who introduced the motion, I am aware of cases and instances where dependent children would have extended their education had these small facilities been available to their parents. The worthiness of the motion could be extended to include both these fields. I am happy to say I would be pleased to support its terms and its extension along the lines I have mentioned. (Translation):


Mr. Rinfrel:: Mr. Speaker, this is the first time I have the honour to take part in a debate in this house and I am very proud to speak as the member for the constituency of St. James.
I am aware of the role that can be played by a member in the application of social principles and to help to improve the lot of the nation, and I rise in this house to take part in this exchange of opinions on family allowances which, in this time of austerity and unemployment, under a Conservative government, are so highly appreciated by all families in this country.
Since 1958, statistics show that Canada has had an average of 450,000 unemployed and that in a city like Montreal the figure ranges from 65,000 to 85,000.
Mr. Speaker, the figures published by the dominion bureau of statistics indicate that 91 per cent of those who are unemployed are heads of families.
Were it not for the measures taken by the Liberal party in the field of unemployment insurance, old age pensions, hospitalization insurance and family allowances, poverty and distress would prevail in many parts of this country.
Since the beginning of this century, social security, in the shape of old age assistance, hospitalization, unemployment and family assistance, has been due to the action and achievements of the Liberal party under Liberal leaders.
We are now studying a motion introduced by the hon. member for Quebec-Montmorency

(Mr. Marcoux), who wants family allowances to be granted to any child temporarily absent from Canada, when his parents are attending some educational institution.
Mr. Speaker, at this stage, it might perhaps be useful briefly to recall the history of family allowances in Canada. It was the Liberal party, under the leadership of William Lyon Mackenzie King, which put forward a family allowance plan in 1944.
The Liberals firmly believe today, as they did then that the family and the home are the very roots of national life.
In 1944, the Liberals wanted to give valuable assistance to Canadian families by bringing in legislation of an eminently social nature. Hon. members will remember that in 1944, the Conservatives not having the support of their twin brother, the Social Credit party, were therefore in the opposition.
We may also recall the violence with which some Conservative members opposed that legislation and tried by all possible means to have it shelved. Their argument was that the bill was unconstitutional. It was even suggested that such measure would be an act of corruption and favoritism with regard to the province of Quebec where, even today, the greatest number of large families is found.
And French speaking Canadians bitterly recall the fact that during the discussion on that bill, in 1947, the Conservative member for Toronto-Parkdale (Mr. Bruce) -


Mr. Speaker:: Order. 1 should like to point out to the hon. member that he may give the background of family allowances. However, I suggest that he is departing from the principle of the motion now before us when he attempts to go into the detailed history of the whole question of family allowances. The principle of the motion before us is rather limited. In fact, this is how the motion reads:
That, in the opinion of this house, the government should give consideration to amending the Family Allowances Act to provide that, when otherwise qualified, a child shall not be deprived of allowances during a temporary period of absence from Canada while his parents are in attendance at an educational institution.
Such is the principle of the motion before us, and all discussion must be germane to it, and not go through the detailed history of family allowances. Otherwise, this would cause endless discussions.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: Mr. Speaker-
(Text):


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, if I may say a word on the rather astonishing point of order raised by Your Honour, I would point out that hon. members are limited to 20 minutes 27507-3-58J
Family Allowances
in this debate. On these motions of private members, when it is suggested that it would be desirable to have an amendment made to an act, I have never heard any of your predecessors suggest that one could not give some description of the origins and background of the act, or that there should be any restriction whatsoever upon that. It seems to me this is a kind of restriction which it would be most undesirable to have imported into our practices.


Mr. Speaker:: I would draw to the attention of the hon. member that the rule of relevancy applies at all times in this house, and therefore I hope debates will be relevant to the questions before the house. It was in that light that I drew to the attention of the hon. member that, while he could make some historical reference, he should not perhaps devote the whole of his speech to that particular phase. That is not what I would like to see in this type of debate. I might point out that 1 do not think sin acquires an aura or a mantle of sanctity merely by the number of times it is committed.
(Translation):


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: 
Mr. Valade:: Mr. Speaker, on a point of
order.
(Translation):
Mr. Speaker, following the remarks you have made about the attitude that the hon. members must adopt here, in relation to this proposal, I must say that if the hon. member for St. James (Mr. Rinfret) keeps on pursuing this line of conduct, I reserve the right, with the permission of the Speaker, when I reply, to deal in detail about the insults offered the French Canadians in this field by the Liberal party. I would like to benefit from the same latitude when I reply.

Family Allowances


Mr. Speaker:: When a member rises on a point of order, I do not think it is proper for him to tell the Speaker: "If you allow such and such a member to adopt such a line of conduct, I reserve the right to do the same."
I do not think this is in keeping with the traditions of the house. I would really prefer to hear what the hon. member has to say on the principle of this proposal.


Mr. Rinfret:: Mr. Speaker, I am just coming to a point which will certainly please the mover of this motion, the hon. member for Quebec-Montmorency. In fact, when the Liberal party adopted the principle of family allowances, in 1944, our Social Credit friends will admit that such a measure contributed to a greater circulation of money, increased national production, increased consumer demand and contributed as well to the development of the human person.
Now, in 1957, on account of the economic conditions and needs of the time, the Canadian parliament increased the rate of family allowances for two categories of children, at the request of the Liberal party, which was then led by the Right Hon. Louis St. Laurent who, like his predecessors, wished to improve the fate of middle class people, of urban and rural workers.
In 1962-


Guy Marcoux: What was the increase?


Maurice Rinfret: My hon. friend, there have been increases for two categories, one dollar for each.


An hon. Member:: Shame.


Maurice Rinfret: And we come to-


Mr. Vincent:: And the third category?


Maurice Rinfret: -and we come to our friend from Quebec-Montmorency (Mr. Marcoux) who said that the measure should be more generous. We shall demonstrate that it is a piecemeal measure. And now, I come to the point. The Liberal party manifesto, as presented by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Pearson), advocates the extension of family allowances up to 21 years of age for boys and girls who are still studying.


An hon. Member:: That was included in our program.


Maurice Rinfret: If this measure were to pass, then parents would be able to leave their children in school longer and as a result the number of unskilled teenagers would be reduced on the labour market.
In recent years, a greater number of young people are attending high schools, trade schools, colleges and universities. Therefore, it would only be fair that parents receive allowances for their children under 21 who attend school.


An hon. Member:: What amount?


Maurice Rinfret: The hon. member for Quebec-Montmorency is suggesting an answer to the problem of a very small number of Canadians. We know that only a few families live abroad because the father or mother are continuing their studies, and that the number of children eligible to family allowances in that case is insignificant.
We realize that the provisions of the act would be beneficial to those families living abroad, but we also believe that it is even more important to provide some assistance to the parents of children between 16 and 21 who are still at school.
In conclusion, I endorse the parsimonious offer of the hon. member for Quebec-Montmorency, but I should like to introduce an amendment which will benefit a greater number of Canadian families. That is why, I move, seconded by the hon. member for Chambly-Rouville (Mr. Pilon), the following amendment:
That alter the words "educational institutions", in the last line of the motion, the following words be added:
in addition, that family allowances be extended beyond the age of 16, until the age of 21, if the child continues his studies.


Guy Marcoux: May I raise a point of order, Mr. Chairman?


Mr. Speaker:: No. One moment.
I have here an amendment proposed by the hon. member for St. James and seconded by the hon. member for Chambly-Rouville. However, I must tell them that there is a great difference in the French version as compared with the English version.


An hon. Member:: Two policies, one for the east and one for the west.


Mr. Speaker:: May I be permitted to show you the difference between the two versions. The French version says that every child who continues his studies would be eligible for family allowances. But the English version, in the way it is written, would limit allowances to children whose parents are away in the United States, since it reads: "if the child ..."
f.Mr. Valade.]

Family Allowances


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: To avoid any confusion, take gested in our program, but I submit that his the French version.	amendment is out of order.


Mr. Speaker:: Then it is proposed as an amendment:
That after the words "educational institutions" in the last line of the motion, the following words be added:
-in addition, that family allowances be extended after the age of 16, until the age of 21, for every child who continues his studies-
Are you through?


Guy Marcoux: On a point of order.


Mr. Speaker:: Then state your point of order.


Guy Marcoux: I suggest this amendment is not in order because it has nothing to do with the motion I put forward. If the hon. member wishes to propose an amendment to the act, he can amend section 4, subsection (2), paragraph (c). That is fine. Now, he wants to amend section 4, subsection (2), paragraph (b).
Therefore, I do not believe the hon. member can propose an amendment to this motion which has nothing whatever to do with the section referred to.


Mr. Speaker:: I will have the hon. member note that the mover of a motion does not propose an amendment to the bill, since he has no right to do so, because the measure would entail the expenditure of public funds. All the hon. member is doing is making a recommendation to the government. So, whether the hon. member for St. James (Mr. Rinfret) is proposing an amendment or making a recommendation, it is in order and I accept it.
The hon. member for Quebec-Montmorency, as a private member, cannot move amendments to the act, even though he may want the Family Allowances Act amended. He can only make a motion calling the attention of the government to a principle. Therefore, no definite section of the act is referred to and so, another member may move an amendment to the main motion in order to change its wording slightly.
I accept the amendment.


Guy Marcoux: I rise again on a point of order. I was under the impression that an amendment was something that altered in part the meaning of a proposal. I do not pretend that I am entitled to introduce a bill and that an hon. member is entitled to amend it, but I think that, as regards semantics or the meaning of words, an amendment is something which alters or sets right part of a proposal.
I understand the hon. member wishes to propose the change we had ourselves sug-


Vincent Drouin: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order-


Mr. Speaker:: I cannot recognize the hon. member for Argenteuil-Deux-Montagnes for the good reason that he is not sitting in his seat.
(Text):


Mr. MacEachen:: Mr. Speaker, I do want to
comment, in connection with this particular discussion now going on, as to the relevancy of the amendment. I submit that at this stage it is improper to raise a point of order because the motion as amended was put to the house by Mr. Speaker, and at that point-


Mr. Speaker:: I read it; I did not put it.


Allan Joseph MacEachen: -a decision was made on the point of order to the extent that Your Honour recognized the hon. member for Burn-aby-Richmond. I suggest that it would be quite irregular for Your Honour to recognize the hon. member if the motion had not come formally before the house.


Mr. Speaker:: I rather think the hon. member is dotting the "i's" and crossing the "t's". I recognized the hon. member for Burnaby-Richmond. The hon. member for Quebec-Montmorency was raising a point of order and at that time I had not made my ruling on the amendment. Being a new member, I was explaining matters to him. Perhaps some of the experts would give the odd new member a little latitude. I recognize the hon. member for Burnaby-Richmond.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Before you call on the hon. member for Burnaby-Richmond, I think we should have the point clarified. Has Your Honour now ruled that the amendment is in order? Because my understanding was that Your Honour had ruled it in order and had called on the hon. member for Burnaby-Richmond before the hon. member for Quebec-Montmorency rose for the second time. It is a well known and well established rule of this house that once the Chair has made a decision the question cannot be re-opened, and I think it was on that point that my hon. friend for Inverness-Richmond was speaking.


Mr. Speaker:: That may be so, but the hon. member for Quebec-Montmorency is a new member and may not be as fully aware of the rule as others, in the same way that the hon. member for Argenteuil-Deux-Montagnes was not aware and unwittingly transgressed the rules. I call on the hon. member for Burnaby-Richmond.
90S

Family Allowances


Mr. R. W. Priltie (Burnaby-Richmond):: Mr. Speaker, I think this is the third time that I have risen to speak, but I always seem to run into points of order which come from the Liberal benches. It seems to me that if the hon. member for St. James was really interested in getting this resolution passed during the very limited time which we have, he would not have taken up time with his amendment. I do not wish to speak to it, but it was a fairly straightforward point which could have been put through.
I appreciate the point of the resolution of the hon. member for Quebec-Montmorency (Mr. Marcoux), speaking on the main motion for a moment, if I may, as I was one of those who attended university after the war on Department of Veterans Affairs credits and family allowances warrants, as they were at that time. In these days a great many young Canadians do have to go to school in other countries and need every bit of financial help they can get. If this resolution were passed, it would certainly be an aid to these people, so I will simply say that we support the idea. We also support the idea in the amendment. I should like to make one other comment at this time on private members' bills. I realize that it is the tradition around here that they all get talked out, at least invariably so. This seems to me too bad. There are some good ideas which could be allowed to slip through once in a while; so therefore today I appeal to the shock troops on the Conservative back benches to hold their fire and let something good go through for a change. (Translation):


Georges-J. Valade: Mr. Speaker, one of my friends opposite, for whom I have great respect, has just made a remark he should have kept to himself. He said: "They are still talking". I wonder if an hon. member can stop another member, in a democratic country, from talking on a resolution of this importance, especially when there is need to point out the statements, irregularities and implications found in the speech made by the hon. member for St. James (Mr. Rinfret) a while ago, when he spoke to this resolution.
The motive of the main resolution is commendable, but with regard to the amendment, it does what the Liberals are used to doing, irrelevant party politics.
Mr. Speaker, I would like first of all to say that I am a little confused by this resolution. I wonder if I have the right to speak to this resolution or to the amendment proposed thereto. I should like to talk to the amendment and reply also to erroneous statements just made here by the hon. member for St. James, when he claimed that unemploy-

ment has increased; this is particularly true in Quebec since the Liberal party took office in that province, the province in which the party funds had their friends elected here, stating that in 1960-


An hon. Member:: This is not the matter under consideration.


Georges-J. Valade: -that if the Liberal Government was elected-


Mr. Speaker:: I must draw the attention of the hon. member to the fact that we are not running here for a provincial election. And I could have said the same thing to the member for St. James.


Georges-J. Valade: Mr. Speaker, as I said in my remarks on the point of order raised by the hon. member for St. James, the hon. member had much latitude thanks to the generosity of the house and the understanding of the Speaker, due to the fact that he was a young member and a newcomer to this house. He had full opportunity of speaking about politics and provincial matters, like the unemployment question and the austerity program for instance.
I claim that I have a right to the same latitude, so as to be able to answer the hon. member for St. James for what he said with regard to the Liberals. The text of his intervention will be addressed to the voters of his riding, which is next to mine in Montreal. I have to take the opportunity of making the people of Montreal understand that if there is unemployment exceeding the basic figure-


Mr. Robert Beaule (Quebec East):: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order.


Georges-J. Valade: -it is because the Liberals of the province of Quebec did not keep their promise to settle the unemployment question in the province of Quebec.


Jean Robert Beaulé: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. I am wondering whether the member for St. Mary wants to enter into a discussion with the member for St. James or whether he intends to speak to the amendment?


Mr. Speaker:: There has to be some sort of balance about it. I am listening closely to the member for St. Mary, and I do hope that he will heed the advice I gave him as the hon. member for St. James has done.
(Text):


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, on the point of order which Your Honour raised, I draw your attention to the fact that my hon. friend for St. James spoke only about family allowances and not about chomage et autres questions comme l'honorable depute de Sainte-Marie.


Mr. Speaker:: I am glad that the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate is vigilant in this debate. He will also note that I had intervened before this to bring the hon. member for St. Mary back to what I considered the principles of this motion. I hope that he will follow those observations and then we will get somewhere on this particular motion.
(Translation):


Georges-J. Valade: Mr. Speaker, it is always a pleasure for me to abide by the wise rulings you give concerning the younger members of the house and even concerning such a veteran as the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate.
As I was saying at the beginning of my remarks, the resolution introduced by the hon. member of the opposition has some merit. Indeed, it causes us to wonder whether it would not be advisable to amend the Family Allowances Act.
Yet, it seems that the resolution is rather vague concerning the period of time a person would be allowed to spend outside of Canada for the purpose of education. I cannot conceive of a person studying abroad for one, two or even 10 to 15 years and then not returning to Canada even though his children have been getting family allowances all that time. Then the Canadian government would have paid non-resident children, enjoying the advantages of the foreign country, allowances coming from Canadian citizens' income.
I do not question the seriousness and the intentions of the hon. member who put forth this resolution which, I think, is more objective and sincere than the amendment which was introduced and, which was completely political in character and had no social importance whatsoever.
I cannot miss this opportunity to replace in its real context the statement made by the hon. member for St. James, who said that the Family Allowances Act was the result of the generosity of a former prime minister, the Bight Hon. Mr. King. To bear out his own statement, he quoted a former leader of the Conservative party and deplored his general attitude towards family allowances.
Mr. Speaker, I remember the time when the Conservatives opposed neither the act nor the principle of family allowances but rather the way the Liberals had planned it. Their attitude was an insult to the people of the province of Quebec. While we Conservatives asked for family allowances at climbing rates,
Family Allowances
the Liberals wanted decreasing rates. That was the issue that divided the Quebec members.
And such was Mr. King's policy.
We Conservatives tried to introduce more fairness into our legislation. Therefore the amendment to this resolution would certainly have been more serious if it had been presented as the hon. member suggested a moment ago, in the form of a bill rather than under the guise of a publicity trap. The introduction of a bill would have afforded the hon. member an opportunity of explaining why he wanted to amend the Family Allowances Act.
We are all in favour of family allowances.
I would even support family allowances adapted to economic cycles. Indeed, I am of the opinion that family allowances should be flexible and move with the cost of living, thus always ensuring a maximum allowance.
Family allowances render great services to families, and I think we are all anxious to find a formula that would take into account the variable requirements and economic conditions in our nation.
The resolution could have been more explicit as regards the duration of absence abroad for education purposes. It could have contained some provisions about the case of a person collecting allowances from our country for a certain period, then deciding not to return to Canada. This resolution could have incorporated some arrangements providing for a refund to the government of amounts paid for a number of years to persons who decide to remain outside of our country. In my opinion, we should be given an opportunity to consider this motion on another occasion when we might include certain provisions in line with what I have just suggested.
Mr. Speaker, I wish to repeat that if unemployment has increased in the city of Montreal and in the province of Quebec it is due to the sorry program put forward by the Liberals who were elected at the time of the provincial election.
(Text):


Mr. R. J. Cashin (St. John's West):: Mr. Speaker, I find myself in somewhat of a unique position in supporting, as I now intend to do, the resolution introduced by the Social Credit member. I should also like to take this opportunity to sympathize with the hon. member for Burnaby-Richmond who seemed to be having some trouble in getting off the ground. That difficulty is, of course,

Family Allowances
nothing new to the adherents of his particular philosophy. To the hon. gentleman who has just preceded me I might say that I thank him for his little lecture on parliamentary behaviour. However, I think it would be a wise suggestion if he would be kind enough to take the hon. member for St. John's East (Mr. McGrath) within the sphere of his influence. I am sure there is much he could teach him.
In considering this resolution I should also like to point out something else to the hon. member who preceded me. If my earphones were timed in properly, as they usually are, I believe he suggested that in the amendment there should have been included some reference to the cost or to the payments themselves. My understanding is that this procedure is not permissible at this time and that we can only ask the house to consider the ad-visibility of these amendments.
I may say that the financial burden placed upon families, particularly at this time and particularly in the constituency which I represent, would be alleviated if students over the age of 16 years and up to the age of 21 years were to benefit from the Family Allowances Act. There are a great many examples of large families where a number of members of the family, perhaps two or three, are pursuing higher education. I feel that in a general sense it would be in line with the philosophy of government in this country if we were to broaden the scope of this legislation.
I do not wish to take up too much of the time of the house at this moment. I merely wish to limit my remarks to expressing my support of this motion. I may say that an unusual occasion is presented for this House of Commons when we see a ray of light coming from the marriage that conveniently keeps this house in session. We should not, however, as a result of this circumstance, be carried away with greater hope for increased enlightenment on some of the more important problems of this country. I would remind you, Mr. Speaker, that in the kingdom of the blind the one-eyed man is king.


Mr. McGrath:: May I ask the hon. gentleman a question?


Richard Joseph Cashin: I am always glad to hear from the hon. member for St. John's East.


James Aloysius McGrath: Would the hon. member have broadened the scope of the bill to include students at law such as the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate?
(Translation):


Jean Robert Beaulé: Mr. Speaker, in reply to the hon. member for St. Mary (Mr. Valade), who said that the motion was not clear, I must say that, in my opinion,

it is very clear and simple. I cannot see why he who said that a child can study 15 or 20 years in Europe, would not support it, for it has to do with family allowances, not with old age pensions. The motion is not about old age pensions but about family allowances. (Text):


Mr. G. H. Aiken (Parry Sound-Muskoka):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to advise the house that I am in agreement with both the amendment and the main motion. The motion as originally placed before the house was commendable in that it pointed out one other area in which family allowances could be expanded. I have felt that there are several situations in which family allowances are properly payable even after the child has reached the age at which the allowances are normally discontinued. The amendment broadened the scope of the original motion to a point that I would still agree is commendable.
I know, and I suppose all hon. members know, that there are cases of children whose father has died or who is not supporting the family, and in the province of Ontario such a child is supported by assistance under the mothers' allowance regulations. In most provinces these allowances are discontinued when the child reaches a certain age and, to add insult to injury, family allowances are also discontinued at about the same time. This creates a great hardship for the widowed mother in many of these cases where the provincial mothers' allowance and the federal family allowance are both discontinued at approximately the same time. The children still have to be sent to school either within the community or somewhere else.
I believe that an expansion of the provisions of the act to cover these situations would be met with general approval.
With respect to the original motion, when a parent goes to another country to carry on his education that parent generally is classified in that country as a non-resident. Under these circumstances he is not entitled to the privileges of a resident of that country and therefore does not qualify-
(Translation):


Gérard Lamy: Mr. Speaker, is the hon. member killing the motion?
(Text):


Gordon Harvey Aiken: I would ask the hon. member to repeat his question.
(Translation):


Gérard Lamy: Mr. Speaker, I asked the hon. member if he was killing the motion. It is now four minutes to six.
(Text):


Gordon Harvey Aiken: I will be talking until six o'clock, although I had not intended to. Other

hon. members have risen in their places to indicate that they wish to speak on this matter, and there is also the technical difficulty that has been brought about by the introduction of the amendment in that we now have to deal with both the amendment and the main motion. Therefore I think some time would have to be given to hon. members for consideration of the amendment. The original motion was on the order paper and hon. members had sufficient time to prepare themselves to speak on that particular subject and to come to a conclusion about it. In fact, I had come to the conclusion that I would support the original motion moved by the hon. member for Quebec-Montmorency. However, an amendment was thrown in at the last minute and I think hon. members should have time to consider the amendment as well. Therefore I do intend to speak until six o'clock.
I have a few things to say and I want to say them before my time expires. At the present time family allowance payments are withheld when a parent goes to the United States or to another country for a period of three months on the assumption that the parent will return. I understand this is done under the provisions of the regulations. If the motion were brought into effect I think it would be very helpful but it would have to be limited to parents who intend to return to this country eventually. I think that would be one of the first requisites we would want to establish. When the old age pension legislation was amended two years ago permission was granted for the payment of pensions outside of Canada for any length of time after the person has become eligible; but in this
Business of the House
particular instance I do not believe this would be suitable because, as has already been pointed out, there would have to be some evidence that the parent and the children eventually intended to return to this country. I should like to point out particularly, Mr. Speaker, the provisions of section 4 of the Family Allowances Act.


An hon. Member:: Six o'clock.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, I should like to inquire from the house leader about the business for tomorrow. I take it for granted that we will continue with the debate in committee of ways and means, but I wonder whether the house leader could give some indication of what bills he intends to call on Friday and, so far as next week is concerned, will he indicate whether we will be having a motion to go into committee of supply?


Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Speaker, tomorrow the house will continue in committee of ways and means as it was today. On Friday we will take up and complete, I hope, the resolution in the name of the Minister of Agriculture dealing with the Farm Credit Act, which is No. 27 on today's order paper. That will be followed by the second reading of Bill No. C-3, an act to amend the Food and Drugs Act. After consideration, I may add one or two other items tomorrow night. It is difficult to forecast next week's business until we see what progress we make in committee of ways and means.


[Stage Direction]
At six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[Stage Direction]
Thursday, Oclober 25, 1962