1962-10-17

Hon. J. W. Monteith (Minister of National Health and Welfare):: Mr. Speaker, there have been some changes made in my department's radiation measurement program which I feel would be of interest to the house.
As hon. members will recall, last May we set up a fluid milk sampling program at three stations which is designed to measure levels of iodine 131, a short-lived component of fall-out. By July of this year the network measuring iodine 131 was increased to seven stations, with samples being taken three times a week. Several days ago two more stations were opened, so that the network now covers Vancouver, Calgary, Saskatoon, Winnipeg, Sault Ste. Marie, London, Ottawa, Quebec city and Halifax.
A further change has to do with the publication of results from various sectors of the measurement program. Until now these have been reported on a quarterly basis. However, developments have now reached the point where it is practical to publish findings on a monthly basis. The first of these reports should be released today. For the information of the house I might say that this report will show an increase in iodine 131 levels during the month of September. However, the accumulated levels are still substantially below those at which remedial action is considered essential to public health.
These new procedures of more frequent reporting which I mentioned earlier will, I hope, contribute to keeping the Canadian public informed on developments of the field of radiation.



FINANCE


Hon. George C. Nowlan (Minister of Finance):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to make an announcement concerning the import surcharges which were instituted in June to deal with the critical exchange situation. These measures have been kept under constant review by the government, and in the
light of representations which have now been received from Canadian businessmen and individuals, firms and corporations, certain adjustments have been made to remove anomalies and to deal with hardship cases.
1 am now glad to be able to inform the house that in the light of our improved foreign exchange position a first major step is being taken toward the removal of these surcharges. Effective immediately the surcharges are being removed from industrial machinery and equipment not made in Canada, wherever such equipment is separately classified in the tariff.
The surcharges are also being removed from two products which must be imported for use in Canadian manufacturing. One is wide steel sheets for use in the manufacture of bathtub stampings. The other is corn used in making starch and a number of other products also used in the House of Commons. The surcharge was removed from corn for agricultural purposes some time ago, and all corn will now be free of surcharge regardless of use.
The removal of these surcharges will assist Canadian industry in becoming more competitive here in Canada and in export markets. It also meets some of the legitimate concerns of our trading partners whose trade interests have been affected. The Prime Minister has made clear that the surcharges are temporary in nature and will be removed as soon as our circumstances permit. I am sure that this house and the trading community, both in Canada and abroad, will welcome this present move.



STATEMENT FOLLOWING DISCUSSIONS AT OTTAWA

Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, officials of the United States and Canadian governments today concluded two days of discussion at Ottawa on present and future problems confronting the North American softwood lumber industries. A communique was issued, the substance of which is as follows. They developed further the subjects discussed at the first meeting relative to the position of the softwood lumber industries in Canada and the United States, factors currently affecting the two industries, and the outlook for the future,

Statement on Lumber Industry both short and long term. Industry representatives from the two countries were available for consultation.
It was recognized that both countries have a mutual interest in a satisfactory resolution of problems facing the North American softwood lumber industries. It was agreed that an ad hoc joint expert working group of government officials would be established to examine co-operatively such matters as the results of the recent storm on the Pacific coast; the longer term North American supply and demand prospects for timber resources; wood utilization generally, and market development.
It was agreed that as need arose industry representatives of the two countries would be consulted in an appropriate manner.
(Translation) :



COAL PRODUCTION ASSISTANCE ACT


Hon. Paul Martineau (Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys) moved: for leave to introduce Bill No. C-64, to amend the Coal Production Assistance Act.
He said: Mr. Speaker, the bill stipulates that where the coal produced by a mine is of a lower value than what was originally provided for under the act, the rate of repayment per ton will be reduced to a level corresponding to that real value.
The bill also provides for another minor amendment concerning the terms of repayment and makes it an offence to make a false statement in support of a request.
The bill also authorizes the renegotiation of a specific agreement where, because of special circumstances, the borrower may ask to be relieved from some of the obligations into which he has entered.
(Text):
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



REVISED STATUTES


Hon. Donald M. Fleming (Minister of Justice) moved: that the house go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following resolution, which has been recommended to the house by His Excellency:
That it is expedient to present a measure respecting the Revised Statutes of Canada, thereby to establish a commission to effect such revision and to authorize remuneration to be paid to certain assistants, officers, clerks and employees.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
[Mr. Diefenbaker.l

Mr. Speaker:: Prior to calling questions I should like to draw to the attention of hon. members something that has been reported to me by the staff charged with keeping in order the bills, orders of the day, and Hansards at the various desks of hon. members. Perhaps in the enthusiasm of getting out of the house at night hon. members are carrying with them their bound folders of Hansard and other material that is at their desks, taking them up to their offices and leaving them there. This causes a considerable inconvenience to the staff charged with keeping these desks in order. We would respectfully ask hon. members first of all to leave them here. They have alternate supplies at their offices; and if in their offices they have any of the material I have mentioned, would they kindly bring it back.



QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. Herridge: Has information been received from the city of Montreal concerning identical tenders from several firms for the supply of electrical equipment and, if so, (a) on how many occasions since January 1, 1961, has such information been received from the city of Montreal (b) what action has been taken in each case (c) what answer or answers have been sent to the city of Montreal?
Answer by: Mr. Bell (Saint John-Albert):
(a)	As reported in the press, the city of Montreal has written twice since January 1, 1961 (on June 19, 1962 and September 11, 1962), stating that on each occasion identical tenders had been received for the supply of electric lighting equipment.
(b)	The information submitted has been referred to the director of investigation and research under the Combines Investigation Act.
(c)	The representations from the city were duly acknowledged and a request was made for further particulars in order that the director may determine whether the situation is such as to warrant formal inquiry under the Combines Investigation Act. The general practice, however, is that no information is given out as to whether an inquiry under the act is being pursued in a particular industry unless and until a report is published.

cabinet ministers holding shares or


DIRECTORSHIPS
Mr. Fisher: Has the Prime Minister issued any public statement on (a) the propriety of ministers holding directorships or executive positions with private corporations or (b) the propriety of ministers holding shares of private corporations and, if so, when was the statement made and what was the gist of it on each of these matters?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, in regard to part (a) there has been no issue of a statement as such, although there have been references made by me from time to time in the house and elsewhere. The effect of these utterances is that members of the cabinet should upon their appointment resign any directorships held in business corporations. On June 20, 1961, as found at page 6599 of Hansard, I emphasized that the policy of the present government when it came into power was to ensure that no minister in the cabinet would hold a portfolio while at the same time having a position as director of any company.
With regard to part (b) of the question, no statement has been made in the house that I recall, although on a number of occasions I have stated that, in so far as shares in corporations are concerned, there is no necessity of ministers divesting themselves of their stock holdings.


CITIZENSHIP CERTIFICATES TO CHINESE
Mr. Howard: 1.	For each year since January 1, 1957, how many, If any, certificates of citizenship have been granted to people of Chinese origin?
2.	With respect to the period of time which elapses between the exam for citizenship before a judge and the issuance of the said certificate, what period of that time lapsed with respect to each of the said people of Chinese origin expressed by groups in units of weeks and/or years as the case may be?
Answer by: Mr. McGee:
1.	1957, 2,160; 1958, 2,058; 1959, 1,318; 1960, 347; 1961, 755; 1962 (January 1 to June 30- 573. Totals for third quarter not yet available).
2.	In order to obtain this information it would be necessary to examine approximately
60,000	index cards together with their case files. This would require several months work and would involve the removal of staff from the task of processing the present large number of applications for Canadian citizenship.


MACKENZIE DISTRICT INDIANS
Mr. Howard: What action has been taken with respect to the recommendations of the commission of inquiry,
Questions
appointed on June 25, 1959, to inquire generally into all matters arising out of unfulfilled provisions of treaties 8 and 11 as they applied to Indians of the Mackenzie district?
Answer by: Mr. McGee:
The matter is under study.


PRISONERS SENTENCED UNDER SECTION 661 OF CODE
Mr. Matheson: 1.	How many inmates were housed in federal institutions in September 1962 as a result of sentences imposed under the provisions of section 661 of the Criminal Code of Canada?
2.	How many of these received psychological and psychiatric therapy during the said month of September?


Mr. Bell (Saint John-Alberi):: The answer to part 1 is 26.
The answer to part 2 is that six inmates received psychiatric therapy in September. Twelve inmates sentenced under section 661 of the code are receiving regular therapy interviews but were not actually interviewed by the psychiatrist in the month of September. Eight inmates sentenced under this section are considered to be unsuitable for psychiatric help due to their mental state, hostility or poor mental capacity.


VANCOUVER AIRPORT
Mr. Laing: 1.	Has a decision been taken to build an air terminal at Vancouver international airport and, if so, have plans been completed for this air terminal?
2.	If plans are ready, what is the estimated cost, and when may work be expected to commence?
Answer by: Mr. McBain:
1 and 2. Treasury board has granted approval in principle to build an air terminal at Vancouver international airport. Plans and specifications are not yet ready and will take some considerable time to develop and complete. The pre-loading of the site of the new air terminal is under way.


CORPORATION AND INCOME TAXES
Mr. Laing: What has been the total of (a) corporation taxes (b) personal income taxes, collected from each province in each fiscal year from 1949-50 to the present?
Answer by: Mr. Flemming (Victoria-Carle-Ion):
(a)	As detailed in schedule A attached.
(b)	As detailed in schedule B attached.

[DOT] *	.	*-*


SCHEDULE A &quot;
[Stage Direction]
(a) CORPORATION GENERAL INCOME TAX COLLECTIONS BY PROVINCES 1950 TO 1962 FISCAL YEARS INCLUSIVE	[DOT] ,
Provinces and Territory	1950	1951	1952(0	1953(0	1954«)	1955(*	19560)	19570)	19580	19590)	1960(0	196KO	1962(0.s	t	$	s	*	s	t	i	i	$	$	$	$Newfoundland	1,534,096	5,356,861	11.399,902	14,527,565	11,291,154	11,082,968	11,878,035	13,652,389	9,492,285	9,138,487	9,988,085	13,537,563	13,324,878Prince Edward Island	1,046,929	1,198,674	1,211,070	1,256,142	1,206,515	772,981	817,263	1,884,970	1,918,478	1,253,321	1,131,701	1,734,489	1,570,318Nova Scotia	12,313,045	12,686,307	17,485,610	23,309,675	18,168,235	14,210,351	15,157,676	18,392,590	17,339,502	14,988,960	13,883,823	17,277,959	16,157,539New Brunswick..	8,030,551	9,115,659	16,749,437	15,340,899	13,445,419	11,229,964	13,279,332	14,674,906	13,372,434	11,131,689	13,602,986	15,398,688	14,159,405Quebec	178,763,722	216,842,374	344,175,722	385,025,260	363,686,264	325,152,800	316,424,090	370,138,324	365,311,257	316,177,897	374,102,990	408,040,657	405,362,708Ontario	284,720,048	340,698,955	516,686,328	599,383,646	622,304,424	512,159,087	521,147,636	678,591,516	669,364,568	519,174,663	590,016,723	675,827,016	610,147,909Manitoba	26,828,465	28,602,238	41,944,757	49,716,197	48,053,846	40,970,535	39,036,596	44,650,737	45,368,487	45,979,642	52,650,869	51,344,652	48,107,436Saskatchewan	5,805,895	5,405,249	6,316,388	9,096,047	10,134,919	8,041,988	6,751,963	7,606,044	10,709,466	13,744,924	13,649,161	12,872,594	12,979,822Alberta	20,882,364	22,587,275	33,280,467	43,687,135	49,482,486	38,413,983	40,168,628	53,532,482	60,558,552	58,443,597	63,302,888	66,108,322	68,410,737British Columbia.	62,044,168	68,923,315	128,616,686	124,924,457	100,041,335	97,793,926	107,959,557	132,512,957	101,978,255	85,539,449	101,659,713	117,744,172	113,026,047Yukon	103,375	159,828	200,835	289,771	200,712	320,343	426,097	-	57,441	305,537	226,763	242,268	255,835d>
Includes collections of Old Age Security Tax. (*) Includes collections of Old Age Security Tax and Tax on Undistributed Income. (b) INDIVIDUAL GENERAL INCOME TAX COLLECTIONS BY PROVINCES 1950 TO 1962 FISCAL YEARS INCLUSIVE	SCHEDULE B	Provinces	and	1950	1951	19520)	19530)	19540)	19550)	1956«>	19570)	1958«)	1959(0	1960(0	1961<D	1962(0(0Territory	$	$	$	%	%	$	$	3	$	%	t	5	$Newfoundland	2,188,507	4,206,838	7,117,297	10,397,984	11,681,181	12,331,538	13,235,430	14,250,228	14,628,377	11,573,291	13,839,642	16,581,566	17,601,849Prince Edward	Island	1,360,678	1,286,573	1,301,985	1,658,995	1,605,453	1,437,912	1,634,968	1,769,329	1,709,762	1,501,725	1,865,165	2,285,772	2,692,053Nova Scotia	11,658,979	11,929,119	16,568,134	21,014,883	20,514,898	20,941,823	21,625,133	23,716,944	25,963,803	22,434,500	27,145,514	31,849,292	35,190,143New Brunswick. .	9,349,547	8,849,823	13,428,378	17,853,732	19,541,055	16,438,288	17,018,342	19,573,362	19,264,219	16,788,294	21,707,350	23,857,451	27,232,625Quebec	146,300,694	155,018,683	236,480,799	286,595,444	284,079,810	285,873,287	264,863,565	335,464,093	360,711,221	324,267,765	379,726,676	423,576,318	469,827,176Ontario	285,968,440	309,496,890	471,830,842	590,773,744	623,466,371	633,419,353	660,209,785	767,903,705	814,395,061	754,049,976	875,867,917	963,823,610	1,015,724,845Manitoba	32,682,064	30,843,644	44,303,460	57,335,956	60,340,154	60,897,018	60,250,750	67,631,692	72,961,592	71,736,433	85,834,452	98,096,303	108,136,772Saskatchewan....	28,570,676	23,376,360	27,100,165	37,450,544	46,735,840	44,003,728	31,067,714	34,780,601	41,140,179	39,867,411	47,627,839	53,827,586	58,127,566Alberta	40,960,325	40,895,324	54,895,533	74,097,267	81,027,234	79,617,434	79,290,513	95,681,639	107,301,162	101,023,768	117,788,104	126,686,960	142,315,360British Columbia.	62,259,464	65,635,113	101,498,857	126,196,995	127,366,015	126,941,030	136,834,172	162,485,191	174,712,816	154,661,558	178,721,192	197,567,154	209,310,175Yukon	656,636	790,193	1,250,870	1,900,018	1,997,605	2,446,423	2,069,353	2,193,661	2,001,198	1,944,593	2,069,852	2,407,560	2,108,920
0) Includes collections of Old Age Security Tax.
(2) Includes refunds and payments related to 1961 T1 Short returns filed at the Data Centre in Ontario by taxpayers in the Western Provinces during the period January 3-March 31, 1962.
Questions	HOUSE OF COMMONS

Mr. Stewart: 1.	Who presently has the contract for placing buoys or markers in the St. Mary's river, Guys-borough county, Nova Scotia?
2.	When did the term of this contract begin, what are its financial terms, and when will it expire?
3.	Was the contract obtained by tender, and, if so. was there a lower tender?
4.	Is there now a buoy or marker at Slate Rock?
5.	Has the accuracy of the placing of the buoys or markers in the river this year been examined by officers of the department and, if so, by whom, and on what date?
Answer by: Mr. McBain:
1.	There are two contracts for the placing of buoys and markers in the St. Mary's river, one with Mr. Arthur Mailman, Sonora, N.S., and the other with Mr. George M. Wadds, Sherbrooke, N.S.
2.	The contract with Mr. Mailman is for 3 years from July 2, 1961-$350 per annum. The contract with Mr. Wadds is for 2J years from January 2, 1961-$280 per annum.
3.	The contract with Mr. Mailman is a renewal of a previous contract with him. The contract with Mr. Wadds was awarded to him as a result of public tenders and as the lowest bidder.
4.	Slate Rock is not shown on any Canadian hydrographic service chart. It is apparently a local name not known at headquarters.
5.	The contract with Mr. Mailman has not been inspected this year. The contract with Mr. Wadds was inspected July 27 by officers of the Dartmouth marine agency.


FERRY SERVICE, WEST POINT, P.E.I.-NEW BRUNSWICK
Mr. Crossman: Has the government received a request for the establishment of a ferry service between West Point, Prince Edward Island, and the mainland of the east coast of New Brunswick, and, if so, what action has been taken to date?
Answer by: Mr. McBain:
A detailed submission and request was received by the government in 1948, and an analysis of expenditures and benefits to be derived therefrom did not justify the project.
In March this year, two letters were received and a meeting between the Canadian maritime commission and interested parties was held. No definite proposals were received as regards to ships, terminals, operating revenues ro costs and in consequence, no action was taken.


CANADIAN BOND PURCHASES, BANK OF CANADA
Mr. Leboe: 1.	Has the Bank of Canada bought any Dominion of Canada long-term bonds in the last six months?
2.	If so, was the source of money, used for these purchases, new money or from some other source?
Questions
3.	If money was from some other source, why was Bank of Canada credit not used?
Answer by: Mr. Graffley:
1.	The Bank of Canada's holdings of bonds of various terms to maturity are published, as required by the Bank of Canada Act.
2 and 3. Any net increase in the Bank of Canada's assets involves an increase in the Bank of Canada's liabilities, i.e. in the amount of Bank of Canada credit outstanding.


SMALL BUSINESSES LOANS
Mr. Fisher: 1.	In the loans made in 1961 under the Small Businesses Loans Act, what portion of the number of loans and the total value of the loans were granted in each of the four categories listed in the annual report to persons or businesses in towns or communities of less than (a) 20,000 population (b) 5,000 population?
2.	Has the government any explanation for any disparity that the 1961 statistics released on the operations of this act may show regarding the relative number of loans made by the different banks, having regard to their total assets and number of branches?
Answer by: Mr. Graffley:
1.	Not known.
2.	Answered by No. 1.


PENSION BY-LAWS, BANK OF CANADA
Mr. Fisher: 1.	Has the Bank of Canada a set of pension by-laws?
2.	If so, was a section or rule of that by-law suspended by the board of the bank?
3.	If so, why?
4.	Is the suspension still in effect, and if so, what effect does its suspension have upon the pension received by or entitled to by any former senior employees of the bank?
5.	Has the government, as distinct from the Bahk of Canada, received any communications from Mr. James Coyne, a former governor, regarding any pension entitlement he may have?
Answer by: Mr. Graffley:
1.	Yes.
2.	Yes.
3.	For further consideration by the board.
4.	Not a matter of public record.
5.	No.


COMBINES
Mr. Howard: 1.	Since January 1,	1959, have any fees or
remuneration been paid to (a) legal counsel, and (b) other persons, for opinions and action arising out of reports of the restrictive trade practices commission or for other activities relating to the combines legislation?
2.	If so, what are the names of (a) the counsel (b) other persons; and what amount was paid to each and for what services in connection with what case in each instance? '

Questions
Answer by: Mr. Bell (Saint John-Albert):
1.	(a) Yes. (b) Yes.
2. (a) Counsel	Case	Service	Fees	Disburse- ments	TotalS	$	$R. F. Wilson, Q.C	Beer	Preparation and prosecution.	45,365.00	13,614.60	58,979.60R. B. Robinson	Beer	Preparation and prosecution.	28,750.00	3,709.76	32,459.76H. Donald Guthrie...	Beer	Preparation and prosecution.	13,101.25	752.14	13,853.39C. W. Tysoe, Q.C	Beer	Commissioner to take evidence on commission	225.00	98.42	323.42R. B. Lamb, Q.C	Belts	Opinion and preparation	722.00	26.20	748.20John G. Ahern, Q.C...	Boxboard grades of paperboard	Preparation and prosecution.	578.00	7.40	585.40J. Raphael Beaudette, Q.C	Boxboard grades of paperboard	Preparation and prosecution.	1,225.00	.	1,225.00P. S. FitzGerald, Q.C.	Coal, Sault Ste. Marie	Preparation and prosecution.	3,054.00	226.80	3,280.80G. S. Wismer, Q.C....	Coarse papers	Preparation and prosecution.	1,000.00	-	1,000.00L.H. Jackson	Coarse papers	Preparation and prosecution.	1,573.00	159.15	1,732.15Campbell Grant, Q.C.	Electrical construction materials and equipment 	Preparation and prosecution.	7,500.00	675.96	8,175.96W. J. Anderson, Q.C..	Electrical construction materials and equipment 	Preparation and prosecution.	3,963.25	483.30	4,446.55Arthur A. Macdonald, Q.C	Gasoline, Toronto area	Preparation and prosecution.	1,000.00	56.45	1,056.45George S. P. Ferguson, Q.C	Gasoline, Toronto area (B.A.)	960.00	41.42	1,001.42 1,001.73 241.40George S. P. Ferguson, Q.C	Gasoline, Toronto area	960.00	41.73	Meat packing industry. Metal culverts	240.00	1.40	Joseph Sedgwick, Q.C.	Preparation and prosecution.	4,600.00	47.30	4,647.30J. C. McTague	Metal culverts	Preparation and prosecution.	7,026.25	1,274.72	8,300.97J. D. Hilton, Q.C	Cameras (Garlick Films Limited)	Opinion and preparation	69.75	-	69.75J. D. Hilton, Q.C	Cameras (Arrow Photographic Equipment Limited)	Opinion and preparation	171.25	171.25Dollard Dansereau, Q.C	Pulpwood	Preparation and prosecution.	25,489.50	382.25	25,871.75Jean Paul Ste. Marie, Q.C	Pulpwood	Preparation and prosecution.	11,923.00	97.40	12,020.40Arthur S. Pattillo, Q.C	Sugar industry, East-	3,285.00	328.51	3,613.51 37.90Lucien Tremblay, Q.C.	Sugar Industry, eastern Canada	Preparation	37.90	

	OCTOBER 17, 1962				615
			Questions		
Counsel	Case	Service	Fees	Disburse- ments	Total$	$	$Jean-Paul Cardinal, Q.C	Sugar industry, eastern Canada	Preparation and prosecution.	4,340.00	20.05	4,360.05Claude Guerin	Sugar industry, eastern Canada	Preparation and prosecution.	337.75	337.75F. 0. Meighen, Q.C...	Sugar industry, western Canada....	Preparation and prosecution.	30,800.50	3,465.37	34,265.87W. L. Ritchie	Sugar industry, western Canada....	Preparation and prosecution.	13,582.50	1,150.19	14,732.69G. Arthur Martin, Q.C	Sugar industry, western Canada....	Opinion	1,500.00	44.00	1,544.00Campbell Grant, Q.C.	Surgipal rubber gloves and surgical supplies.	Opinion and prosecution	1,330.00	301.58	1,631.58W. J. Smith, Q.C	Transparent packaging	Opinion	1,740.00	96.00	1,836.00F. Craig Munroe, Q.C.	Newspapers, Vancouver	Opinion	650.00	300.40	950.40Pierre A. Badeaux, Q.C	Zinc oxide	Opinion	1,132.00	36.70	1,168.70I. Nitikman, Q.C	Resale price maintenance case referred direct to counsel	related products)...	Preparation and prosecution.	1,766.75	16.10	1,782.85Ralph S. McCreath, Q.C	Misleading advertising case referred direct to counsel (photographic goods)	Preparation and prosecution.	1,889.00	8.00	1,897.00W. Dan Chilcott	Misleading advertising inquiry referred direct to counsel (stereo combination set)*	Opinion	182.00	182.00J. Harper Prowse, Q.C	Misleading advertising case referred direct to counsel (watches)	Preparation	73.00	12.25	85.25Ralph S. McCreath, Q.C	Misleading advertising case referred direct to counsel (photographic goods)	Preparation and prosecution.	455.00	5.89	460.89H. Donald Guthrie, Q.C	B.C. Fish	Injunction proceedings	101.00	101.00C. W. Tysoe, Q.C	B. C. Fish	Injunction proceedings	8,635.04	-	8,635.04Harvey J. Grey	B. C. Fish	Injunction proceedings	3,862.90	-	3,862.90J. A. W. Whiteacre	B. C. Fish	Injunction proceedings	376.50	-	376.50Jean-Paul Cardinal, Q.C	Towels and uniforms..	Injunction proceedings	1,695.00	82.20	1,777.20Lucien Tremblay, Q.C	Towels and uniforms..	Injunction proceedings	612.50	5.90	618.40Dr. Irving Brecher...	Beer	Economic advice	3,700.00	725.95	4,425.95Professor E. S. Mason.	Beer	2,116.00	2,116.0027507-3-40J	616	HOUSE OF COMMONS
Questions
Counsel	Case	Service	Fees	Disburse- ments	Total$	$	$Dr. L. A. Skeoch	Beer	Economic advice	... 100.00	77.75	177.75... 3,226.55	601.85	3,828.40Henry Barber, Mapp & Mapp	Beer	Accountants	.... 9,250.00	209.35	9,459.35M. A. Hurteau	Boxboard grades of paperboard	Clerk of court	.... 100.00	-	100.00M. A. Hurteau	Pulp wood	Clerk of court	.... 388.50	-	388.50Professor H. Scott Gordon	Fish, B. C	Economic advice	.... 575.00	19.50	594.50Professor S. M. Jamieson	V w.	Fish, B.C..	Eoonomic advice	.... 850.00	25.25	875.25Professor Boris S. Swerling	Sugar industry, western Canada	Economic advice	.... 144.00	-	144.00Professor H. Scott Gordon	Sugar insustry, wrestern Canada	Economic advice	.... 1,350.00	-	1,350.00Professor K. A. H. Buckley	Sugar industry, eastern Canada	Economic advice	.... 2,720.00	42.91	2,762.91Professor H. E. English	Sugar industry, eastern Canada	Economic advice	.... 965.00	37.50	1,002.50Milne, Honeywell & Burpee	Paperboard shipping containers	Accountants	.... 175.00	-	175.00Professor Stefan Sty-kolt	Paperboard shipping containers	Economic advice	.... 2,700.00	50.45	2,750.45Milne, Honeywell & Burpee	Meat packing industry	Accountants	.... 400.00	-	400.00Dr. W. J. Anderson...	Meat packing industry	Economic advice	.... 560.00	-	560.00Professor J. A. Corry..	Newspapers, Vancouver Economic advice	.... 1,050.00	-	1,050.00Professor H. Scott Gordon	Ammunition	Economic advice	
600.00	-	600.00Professor C. A. Ashley	Automobile insurance.	Economic advice	.... 200.00	-	200.00Dr. A. W. Currie	Automobile insurance.	Economic advice	.... 50.00	-	50.00Professor Albert Breton	Food Distribution inquiry	Economic advice	.... 5,722.75	583.65	6,306.40Professor M. D. Stewart	Food distribution inquiry	Economic advice	.... 185.90	65.70	251.60
'Inquiry discontinued (see annual report of the director of investigation and research for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1962, page 27).
Note-In addition to the above, a number of verbatim reporters, summer students and other temporary personnel have been retained from time to time by the combines branch.


JUVENILE DELINQUENTS ACT, KINGS COUNTY, N.B.
Mr. Fairweaiher: Has the attorney general of New Brunswick or any official of the government of New Brunswick requested that the Juvenile Delinquents Act be brought into effect in the county of Kings in New Brunswick in pursuance of a resolution passed in January 1962 by the council of the municipality of Kings?

Answer by: Mr. Bell (Saint John-Albert):
Yes. The attorney general of New Brunswick wrote to the Minister of Justice requesting that the Juvenile Delinquents Act be brought into effect in the county of Kings in the province of New Brunswick pursuant to a resolution passed in January 1962 by the council of the municipality of Kings and a

proclamation was published in the Canada Gazette of September 8, 1962, proclaiming the act to be in force in the county of Kings.


UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE OFFICE, CAMPBELL RIVER, B.C.
Mr. Barnett: Is there space in the federal building at Campbell river, B.C., which could be made available for the establishment of an employment office by the unemployment insurance commission?
Answer by: Mr. McCleave:
There is 434 square feet of vacant space on the second floor of the federal building at Campbell river, B.C. A further 187 square feet is leased on a monthly basis to the provincial government of British Columbia and could be vacated, as required, for federal services.



Mr. Barnett: 1.	Has the unemployment insurance commission plans for the establishment of an office at Campbell river, B.C., and, if so, when is it intended that such an office will be put into operation?
2.	What is the nature and extent of the services which will be provided through this office?
Answer by: Mr. Hales:
1.	The unemployment insurance commission does not plan to open an office at Campbell river, B.C.
2.	Not applicable.


LAKEHEAD
Mr. Fisher: 1.	Has there been a situation, in pilotage arrangements at the Canadian lakehead, that some ships have had to bring pilots in from Duluth in order to make minor moves within the harbour?
2.	If so, (a) on what occasions, and what were the ships involved (b) what steps are being planned by the Department of Transport to improve matters?
Answer by: Mr. McBain:
1.	Yes.
2.	(a) On occasion when a foreign ship whose master or officer did not hold a certificate of qualification required a registered pilot, and there was no registered pilot available at the lakehead.
(b) Steps have already been taken to ensure that there will be sufficient work to justify the presence of one or more registered pilots at lakehead harbour at all times.


NORTH SYDNEY-ARGENTIA FERRY
Mr. Muir (Cape Breton North and Victoria): 1.	Are plans and specifications being prepared for a new North Sydney to Argentia ferry?
Questions
- 2, Has any agreement been reached by the Department of Transport, Canadian National Railways, and the Department of Public Works as to terminal facilities at North Sydney and Argentia?
3.	Has any agreement been reached with the United States government for use of the present Argentia facilities?
4.	If the answer to part 1 is yes, when is it proposed to call tenders for construction of the proposed new ferry?
Answer by: Mr. McBain:
1.	Yes.
2.	Agreement in principle has been reached subject to more detailed technical study.
3.	Yes.
4.	Subject to the provision of funds by parliament for the fiscal year 1963-64, the department will be in a position to call tenders during that fiscal year.


HALIFAX HARBOUR LIGHTSHIP
Mr. Morris: Is there any intention to withdraw the Sambro lightship permanently from position in the entrance to Halifax harbour?
Answer by: Mr. McBain:
No decision has been taken that would involve the removal of the Sambro lightship, in the near future. However plans for the further extension and improvement of modern electronic and other aids to navigation covering the approaches to Halifax over the coming years may, in due course, require consideration of the lightship, which does not itself mark any hazard. It may be it will be found that in due course its purpose can be more effectively carried out by modern means which provide precise positioning over a much wider segment of the approach area, but this remains to be seen.


*USE OF FRENCH AND ENGLISH IN CIVIL SERVICE
Mr. Marcoux: Concerning the resolution dealing with the use of French and English in the civil service and the extra pay for bilingual employees, adopted by the civil service association of Canada in Vancouver, as reported by the Montreal Star of October 5, 1982, is it the intention of the government to adopt the resolutions passed by this body?
(Translation):


Mr. Graffiey:: The answer is that the government has no comment to make concerning such a report.
(Text):


AGASSIZ, B.C., NARCOTICS TREATMENT CENTRE
Mr. Berger: 1.	Is the government proceeding with construction of a centre for the confinement and treatment of narcotics addicts at Agassiz, B.C,, and, if so, what expenditures have been made to date in connection therewith?
2.	Have there been any changes from the original plans regarding the total cost of the centre and the number of addicts that the centre will be designed to accommodate?

Questions
3.	It the construction of the centre has been postponed, when does the government expect to proceed with it?
4.	If the project has been abandoned, what expenditures were made prior to abandonment?
Answer by: Mr. Bell (Saint John-Albert):
1.	The institution for the treatment of drug addicts was never planned to be constructed at Agassiz, B.C. The drug addicts' institution will be constructed at Matsqui, B.C. and is progressing as scheduled. Expenditures to date are: Survey: $4,978; appraisal: $900; architect fees: $46,166.66; exploratory well drilling: $13,278.65; other expenses: $905.99; totalling: $66,229.30.
2.	No.
3. Not applicable. See answer No. 1.
4. Not applicable. See answer No. 1.


INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT BANK
Mr. Thompson: 1.	What is the total amount, in dollars, that the industrial development bank is permitted to loan to borrowers at any one time?
2.	From what source does the industrial development bank obtain the funds which it lends to borrowers?
3.	What is the average cost of operation of the industrial development bank as a percentage of revenue obtained from the operation of the bank?
4.	What is the total value of guarantees extended by the industrial development bank relative to loans made to borrowers by other lending agencies?
5.	What reserves are held by the industrial development bank in connection with liability under such guarantees?
Answer by: Mr. Graffiey:
1.	The Industrial Development Bank Act does not contain any direct limitation on the amount which the industrial development bank is permitted to loan to borrowers at any one time, but section 14 of the act provides that the aggregate of the total direct liabilities of the bank including debentures, contingent liabilities in the form of guarantees given or underwriting agreements entered by it shall not, at any time, exceed five times the aggregate amount of the paid up capital and reserve fund.
2.	The bank obtains the funds which it lends to borrowers from three main sources, viz: the issue of share capital, the reserve fund built up through retention of profits, and the issue of debentures.
3.	In the year ending September 30, 1961, the average cost of operation of the industrial development bank, including cost of debentures and provision for losses was 83.9 per cent of revenue obtained from the operation of the industrial development bank.
4.	The total amount of guarantees extended by the industrial development bank as at August 31, 1962 was $13,661.

5.	No specific part of the industrial development bank's reserve for losses is allocated to guarantees.


FRASER RIVER BOARD AUTHORITY
Mr. Maiher: 1.	What is the situation concerning re-organization of the New Westminster harbour commission and the establishment of the Fraser river board authority?
2.	Is it the intention of the Minister of Transport to introduce legislation providing for the establishment of the new authority at the present session and, if so, will the member municipalities be given an opportunity to review the constitution of the new authority at the end of the authority's first year of operation?
Answer by: Mr. McBain:
1.	After discussions with the local authorities, a plan of reorganization has been broadly agreed upon.
2.	(a) It is expected that appropriate legislation will be ready for introduction in the house during the present session of parliament.
(b)	This matter could be discussed when the relevant bill is before the house.


* FOREIGN EXCHANGE AUSTERITY MEASURES
Mr. Robichaud: Has the government adopted emergency-austerity measures to protect Canada's foreign exchange reserves and, if so (a) on what date were such measures introduced (b) were these measures still in force as of 11:30 a.m. on Thursday, October 11, 1962?
(Translation):


William Heward Grafftey: On June 24, 1962, the Prime Minister announced the steps that the government was taking to stop the decrease of exchange reserves and improve Canada's international balance of payments. These measures became effective on June 25. Except for very slight changes, which were announced, they were still in force at 11.30 a.m. on Thursday, October 11.
(Text):


ST. LAWRENCE SEAWAY-TWINNING OF LOCKS
Mr. Lamoureux: 1.	Has the government decided to twin the St. Lawrence seaway locks at Welland?
2.	Has the government given any consideration to the twinning of the locks at Cornwall?
3.	What level and value of traffic would be required to render twinning of the locks at Cornwall economically feasible?
4.	Has the seaway authority expropriated all lands necessary to complete the project and, if not, is it the intention of the authority to effect the necessary expropriations at an early date?
Answer by: Mr.. McBain:
The St. Lawrence seaway authority advises as follows:
1. See page 238, Hansard, October 5, 1962.
2, 3 and 4. It is assumed that these three parts of the question refer to a possible all

Canadian seaway; in which event, land required for single locks has been expropriated. Studies have not been completed as to when these locks might be required.


* ASSISTANCE TO INDIANS, NEWFOUNDLAND-LABRADOR
Mr. Granger: Are steps being taken by the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration to raise the standard of financial assistance, toward the education and welfare of Indians in Newfoundland-Labrador, to the level now provided in other parts of Canada and, if so, what is the nature of these steps?


Mr. Bell (Carleton):: Under the terms of union the responsibility for the education and welfare of the Indians in Newfoundland-Labrador rests with the province. However, as the hon. member was informed by my predecessor on September 26, 1961, the government has received requests from Newfoundland for financial assistance. These requests are under consideration and an appropriate announcement will be made when a decision has been reached.


ASSISTANCE TO ESKIMOS, NEWFOUNDLAND-LABRADOR
Mr. Granger: Are steps being taken by the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources to raise the standard of financial assistance toward the education and welfare of Eskimos in Newfoundland-Labrador, to the level now provided in other parts of Canada and. if so, what is the nature of these steps?


Mr. Dinsdale:: The terms of union with Newfoundland made the province responsible for the education and welfare of the Eskimo population. Requests have been received from the Newfoundland government, for financial assistance and these are under consideration.


EDMUNDSTON, N.B. PUBLIC BUILDING
Mr. Dube: Does the government intend to proceed with the construction of a federal building at Edmundston, N.B., and, if so (a) are the plans and specifications completed and (b) when will the construction be undertaken?
Answer by: Mr. McCleave:
Yes; (a) no; (b) no decision made as to when construction will commence.
amount owing central mortgage and


HOUSING
Mr. Ouellel: What is the amount owed to the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation by the borrowers?


Mr. McCleave:: As at August 31, 1962, the outstanding balance of loans owing to Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation under the housing acts, plus interest accrued, amounted to $1,683,277,979.
Questions


AMOUNTS OWED TO AND BY CANADA
Mr. Ouellel: 1.	What amount is owed to Canada by other countries, and what countries are they?
2.	What amount is owed by Canada to other countries, and what countries are they?
Answer by: Mr. Graffley:
(Translation):
1.	At December 31, 1960, Canadian assets abroad totalled $9.3 billion. These included direct investment, portfolio investments in stocks and bonds, loans and advances by the government of Canada, holdings of gold and foreign exchange by the government of Canada and other long term and short term assets. The geographical distribution of these assets was:
United States	
$3.6	billionUnited Kingdom	
$1.5	billionOther countries	
$1.9	billionGovernment of Canada holdings of gold and foreign exchange ... $1.8	billionOther assets (county distribution not available)	
$0.4	billion
Total 

 $9.3 billion
(Note: As figures are rounded, totals do not necessarily equal the sum of their component parts.)
2.	At December 31, 1960, Canadian liabilities to non-residents totalled $26.1 billion. These included direct investment, portfolio investments in stocks and bonds and other long term and short term liabilities. The geographical distribution of these liabilities was:
United States	$18.1	billionUnited Kingdom	$	3.6	billionOther countries	$	2.8	billionOther liabilities (country distribution not available)	$	1.7	billionTotal	$26.1 billion
(Note: As figures are rounded, totals do not necessarily equal the sum of their component parts.)
(Text):


IMPORTS OF DAIRY PRODUCTS, 1962
Mr. Clermont: Has Canada imported dairy products in 1962 and, if so (a) in what quantity (b) for what value (c) from what countries?

Questions
Answer by: Mr. Nesbitt:
(a), (b), and (c). Canada imported dairy products during the period January 1 to May 31, 1962 (latest statistics available) as follows:
Unit of
Class	Quantity
Milk, skim, powdered	 lb.
(class 2280)
Milk and cream, fresh (2281) .... gal.
Butter (2282)	 lb.
Casein (2283)	 lb.
Cheese (2284)	 lb.
Milk, whole, powdered (2286) .... lb.
Milk products, condensed,
evaporated, dried or powdered n.o.p. (2287)	 lb.
Country	Quantity	ValueUnited States 	. 5,735	$	3,391Totals 	. 5,735	$	3,391United Kingdom ...	. 444	1,627Denmark 	. 9,459	25,423United States 	. 2,998	14,894. Totals 	, . 12,901	$	41,944Nil	Australia 	. . 64,960	11,687New Zealand	. . 89,250	16,879United States 	, . 51,269	14,814Totals 	. . 205,479	$	43,380United Kingdom ..,	.. 52,489	28,940Austria 	.. 32,225	11,480Denmark 	. . 1,351,997	570,254Finland 	. . 82,651	21,890France 	. . 278,940	168,381Germany West ...	.. 88,217	56,264Greece 	.. 15,812	7,271Italy 	. . 1,120,251	600,982Netherlands 	. . 758,776	328,962Norway 	. . 20,521	9,311Portugal 	. . 1,370	808Sweden 	. . 2,546	888Switzerland	. . 747,846	460,452Poland 	.. 4,856	778Yugoslavia 	.. 16,491	7,092New Zealand	. . 2,000	762Argentina 	. . 87,385	30,456United States 	... 702,811	474,671Totals 	. . 5,367,184	$ 2,779,642	United States ....	. . 13,563	6,055Totals 	.. 13,563	$	6,055Netherlands 	.. 27,313	6,390Switzerland 	.. 3,148	1,530United States 	.. 775,013	238,831Totals 	. . 805,474 $	246,751


COST OF HOG PREMIUM
Mr. Clermont: 1.	What has been the cost to the government of the $3.00 premium paid for grade "A" pork during the last year?
2.	What is the approximate amount that the government will be called upon to pay to hog producers now that the said premium has been reduced to $2.00 for the year affected by this change?
Answer by: Mr. Jorgenson:
1.	Calendar year-$6,317,565-1961.
2.	Estimated calendar year-$6,100,226- 1962.


POULTRY IMPORTS
Mr. Clermont: 1.	From September 1961 to August 1962, what quantities of roasting chicken, poultry, turkey and parts thereof have been imported?
2.	During the same period, how many permits have been delivered with respect to the following imports from the United States: roasting turkey, large size turkey, parts of turkey, poultry and parts thereof, roasting chicken; and what quantities were provided for by the said permits?
Answer by: Mr. Nesbill:
1. Available statistics on imports of poultry during the period September 1961 to May
1962 (latest statistics available) are as follows:
Class	 lb.
Chickens and fowl, eviscerated
(class 2247)	 2,207,552
Turkeys, eviscerated (2248) . . 1,539,713 Poultry, eviscerated n.o.p. (2249) 1,135,492 Chickens and fowl, dead n.o.p
(2255)	 1,176,260
Poultry, dead n.o.p. (2256)	 nil
2. From September 1961 to August 1962, 81 permits were issued for turkeys for a total quantity of 5,853,200 pounds. (These figures include 5 permits for 620,000 pounds of turkey imported for re-export to the United Kingdom as cooked or canned turkey, and not for domestic consumption). For the same period 14 permits were issued for turkey parts for a total quantity of 127,940 pounds. In the issuing of import permits no distinction is made between roasting turkeys and large size turkeys. Fowl was removed from import control on May 30, 1958. Roasting chicken was not under import control.


LOANS TO SMALL BUSINESSES
Mr. Clermont: Between November 1961 and June 30, 1962, and for each province, what has been the number of loans, and what amounts have been granted by chartered banks, under the provisions of section 19(1) of the Small Businesses Loans Act?
Answer by: Mr. Graffiey:
During the eight month period from November 1961 to June 30, 1962, the following
Questions
loans were made by the chartered banks under the Small Businesses Loans Act:
Province	Number Amount
British Columbia ...	. 236	$	1,884,502Alberta 	. 155	$	1,187,888Saskatchewan 	. 139	$	1,014,799Manitoba 	. 101	$	801,289Ontario 	. 605	$	5,017,865Quebec 	. 551	$	5,942,914New Brunswick . ...	. 37	$	406,349Nova Scotia 	. 73	$	704,528Prince Edward	Island 	. 9	$	93,400Newfoundland 	. 10	$	77,429Total 	.1,916	$17,130,963	TRANSPORT SERVICES	GRANTS,	MARITIME	COMMISSION	
Question No. 233-Mr.	Maltais:		
To what persons, companies, or organizations have the following grants been made for transport services, as listed in the 15th report of the Canadian maritime commission, dated June 29, 1962, appendix K, page 40-41: (a) Pointe au Pere and Baie Comeau, $300,000;	(b) Murray Bay or
Rimouski and the north shore of the St. Lawrence, $35,000; (c) Prince Edward Island and the north shore of the St. Lawrence, $42,500;	(d) Quebec,
Natashquan, and Harrington, $492,923; and (e) Rimouski, Matane, and the north shore of the St. Lawrence, $217,522?
Answer by: Mr. McBain:
(a)	La Cie de Navigation Nord-Sud Ltee, Rimouski, Que.
(b)	Clarke Steamship Co. Ltd., Montreal, Que.
(c)	La Cooperative de Transport Maritime et Aerien, Magdalen Islands, Que.
(d)	Clarke Steamship Co. Ltd., Montreal, Que.
(e)	La Cie de Transport du Bas St-Laurent Ltee, Quebec, (P.Q.).


SAGUENAY COUNTY, QUE.  PUBLIC WORKS
Mr. Maliais: 1.	What works are being carried out at the present time by the Department of Public Works in the county of Saguenay, including those which have been approved but not yet started?
2.	Is the construction of a wharf, which had been planned for Baie Comeau for the accommodation of passengers on the ferry Pere Nouvel, included in these works?
3.	What amounts have been approved for all of the said works?
Answer by: Mr. McCleave:
1. Building construction: Schefferville, seismograph vault. (For Department of Mines and Technical Surveys), $49,778.06; Sept lies, addition to Indian agency school. (For Department of Citizenship and Immigration, $307,763.49.

Questions
Harbours and rivers engineering work: Aguanish, wharf repairs, $10,600; Anse-aux-Basques, drainage system, $7,000; Baie Co-meau, harbour improvements, $660,000; Bra-dore Bay, shed reconstruction, $4,500; Clarke City, wharf repairs, $5,000; Grandes Bergeron-nes, ship channel improvements, $1,500; Les Escoumains, wharf repairs, $2,000; Lourdes du Blanc Sablon, slipway, $5,500; Magpie, wharf, $40,000; Middle Bay, slipway, $5,500; Mingan, wharf repairs, $3,000; Riviere-au-Tonnerre, towards wharf reconstruction, $50,000; Riviere-au-Tonnerre, wharf repairs, $2,500; Sacre-Coeur (Anse-des-Roches), dredging of stranding berth, $4,860; St. Augustin, landing pier, $21,000; Sault au Mouton, dredging of stranding berth, $13,136; Sept lies, towards harbour improvements, $60,000; Sept lies, repairs to retaining wall, $52,000; Sheldrake, hauling slip, $5,000; Tadoussac (Anse-a-l'Eau), wharf repairs, $5,000.
The above does not include certain minor repair works under $1,000.
The following works have been approved but not yet started: Baie Comeau, painting of shed, $1,200; Baie Comeau, wharf repairs, $1,700.
2.	No.
3.	Answered by part 1.


GRAIN SALES TO JAPAN
Mr. Berger: 1.	Has the Canadian wheat board received orders for wheat or other food grains from Japan in 1962 and, if so, (a) what quantity of wheat has been ordered to date (b) what quantity of other food grains has been ordered to date?
2.	What quantity of (a) wheat (b) other food grains, was ordered by Japan last year?
3.	What quantity of (a) wheat (b) other food grains, was supplied to Japan last year?
4.	Upon what terms were (a) wheat (b) other food grains, supplied to Japan last year?
5.	Has Japan at any time this year indicated that she is not prepared to place orders for (a) Canadian wheat (b) other Canadian food grains, upon the same terms as last year?
Answer by: Mr. Jorgenson:
1.	Yes, the Canadian wheat board has received orders from the private grain trade for wheat for delivery to Japan in the 1962-63 crop year.
(a)	For competitive reasons it is not the practice of the Canadian wheat board to disclose forward sales of grain to a commercial market. However, export clearances of wheat to Japan during the current crop year amounted to 7,829,137 bushels as at September 30, 1962.
(b)	No other feed grains have been shipped to Japan during the current crop year.
2.	(a) The quantity of Canadian wheat ordered by Japan for the 1961-62 crop year was 48,042,969 bushels, all of which was shipped.

(b)	Nil.
3.	(a) See 2(a) above.
(b)	Nil.
4.	The wheat supplied to Japan last year was sold by the private trade on straight (normal) commercial terms.
5.	No.


DEATHS FROM FIRES
Mr. Laing: In each year since 1955 (a) how many persons died in fires in Canada (b) in the case of deaths from fire, how many occurred in areas where no bylaws exist for the inspection of heating facilities
(c)	how many deaths from fire were children under 18 years of age?
Answer by: Mr. McCleave:
(a)
1956		 601
1957		 638
1958		 532
1959		 560
1960		 566
1961		 556
Total (6 years)	 3453
(b)	This information is not available as the data is not recorded by municipal and provincial authorities.
(c)	This information is not available for children under 18 years of age, but data for children under 16 years of age is as follows:
1956		 233
1957		 256
1958		 217
1959		 233
1960		 232
1961		211
Total (6 years)	 1382


FORT WILLIAM, ONT., FEDERAL BUILDING
Mr. Badanai: 1.	Has the government altered any plans regarding the proposed construction of a federal building at Fort William?
2.	Is the proposal of building a new post office on the site formerly occupied by the armoury finalized and, if so, is the present post office building going to accommodate the unemployment insurance commission?
Answer by: Mr. McCleave:
1.	Yes.
2.	Yes. Present plans call for the unemployment insurance commission to move into the present post office building on completion of the new federal building.


PURCHASE OF BOBCAT VEHICLES
Mr. Badanai: 1.	How many bobcat vehicles have been purchased so far?
2.	Is the government calling for tenders for an additional order of bobcats?

Answer by: Mr. Harkness:
1.	An order has been placed for 20.
2.	As previously announced, it is intended to call for tenders for the manufacture of an additional 480 after delivery and testing of the 20 referred to in the answer to part one of this question.


FORT WILLIAM, ONT.  SMALL BUSINESS LOANS
Mr. Badanai: What is the number of loans made in 1960 and 1961 under the Small Businesses Loans Act in Fort William, and the amount of each?
Answer by: Mr. Graffley:
Information on loans is not assembled to provide a detailed breakdown by local areas.


FORT WILLIAM, ONT.  FARM CREDIT LOANS
Mr. Badanai: 1.	How many applications were made to the Farm Credit Corporation in the year 1961 from the constituency of Fort William?
2.	How many of these applications for loans were approved, and what is the amount of each?
Answer by: Mr. Jorgenson:
1.	The Farm Credit Corporation does not maintain statistical records on a constituency basis. However, in the district of Thunder Bay, which approximately coincides with the constituency of Fort William, five applications were received during the period April 1, 1961 to March 31, 1962.
2.	Five loans were approved in the amounts of $9,700; $2,600; $11,800; $11,400; and $12,500 for a total of $48,000.
master grain handling plan

Question No. 248-Mr. Fisher:
1.	Has the government had the opportunity to study the proposals for a "master grain handling plan" proposed by the president of the C.N.R. in a speech at Winnipeg on September 26, 1962?
2.	If so, what action is the government considering, if any, to Mr. Gordon's suggestion for a "systems analysis" of the grain handling problem and his remarks that ". .. action is required in the form of legislation ..."? (Quotations from a script of Mr. Gordon's speech).
3.	Has Mr. Gordon had face to face discussions with either the Minister of Agriculture or the Minister of Transport, or both, on his recommendations and, if so, when?
4.	As a consequence of Mr. Gordon's suggestions, has the government contacted the Canadian wheat board, the western farm organizations, or the wheat pools for their views on the suggestions?


Mr. McBain:: 1.	As this matter is of special interest to the ministers of agriculture and transport, both ministers have read the document and have requested their officials to make a special study of the proposals.
2.	If and when the government takes any action on this matter, it will be announced in the proper and usual manner.
Questions
3.	The answer to part 3 is that discussions between ministers find the officers of crown corporations are privileged.
4.	This matter has been discussed by the Minister of Agriculture, both formally and informally, with various interested groups over the past two years.


EAST RIVER SHEET HARBOUR, N.S.-WHARF REPAIRS
Mr. Morris: What was the cost of repairs and improvements to the public wharf at East River Sheet Harbour, Nova Scotia, in each of the years 1955, 1956, 1957, 1958, 1959, 1960, 1961, and 1962 to date?
Answer by: Mr. McCleave:
1955, Nil; 1956, $34,225.24; 1957, $50,839.83 (to complete wharf reconstruction commenced in 1956); 1958, $56.86; 1959, Nil; 1960, Nil; 1961, Nil; 1962, $3,140.


CANADIAN GOLD RESERVE
Mr. Caoueile: 1.	What is the gold reserve now held as security for the Canadian dollar?
2.	Does the gold standard still have any value in our country?
3.	What part does gold now play in our Canadian monetary system?
4.	What assets in gold are now held by Canada?
Answer by: Mr. Graffley:
1.	Answered by 3 and 4 below.
2.	This is a matter of opinion. It is presumably of value to Canadian gold mining interests that gold can be sold internationally at established prices.
3.	Gold, as part of our foreign exchange reserves, can be used to stabilize and protect the international value of our currency.
4.	On September 30, 1962, the value of the gold held in Canada's official reserves was $687 millions (U.S.).


FINANCING OF PRODUCTION BY CONSUMERS
Mr. Caouelie: 1.	When does the government intend to try, as an experiment, the financing of Canadian production by Canadian consumers?
2.	Does the government intend in the near future to grant credit to Canadians so that our national production will permit the men, women, and children of Canada to be the first to benefit by it?
Answer by: Mr. Graffley:
1 and 2. This question relates to government policy which is announced from time to time as appropriate.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. Brewin: Since the coming into effect of the immigration regulations of February 1,	1962, how many
immigrants have been admitted to Canada under

Questions
section 31 of the regulations as persons who, by reason of their education, training, skill, or other special qualifications are likely to be able to establish themselves successfully in Canada, and what was the nationality of persons admitted under this section, and what was the nature of the education, training, skills, or other special qualifications required in such cases?


Mr. McGee:: Return tabled.
*	FEDERAL TAX COLLECTIONS FROM QUEBEC


POWER COMPANIES
Mr. Marcoux: 1.	What amount of taxes has been collected in 1961 by the federal government from the Quebec private power companies?
2.	What amounts are expected to be collected in 1962?
3.	What percentage of these amounts is given back to the province of Quebec under the federal-provincial tax agreements?


BUTTER IN STORAGE
[Stage Direction]
Question No. 188*-Mr. Bernier:
1.	What is the quantity of butter held in. storage at the present time?
2.	Where are storage warehouses located, what quantity is there in each warehouse, and what is the monthly rental and other cost for each such warehouse?
3.	Has a large quantity of butter been transformed into butter oil and, if so, how does the government intend to dispose of it?
*	UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE APPLICANTS
Mr. Robichaud: What was the total number of persons registered for unemployment insurance benefits as of July 31, August 31, and September 30,	1962?


Mr. Hales:: Return tabled.


NATIONAL PARKS
Mr. Laing: 1.	In respect of each of the national parks of Canada (a) what is the name (b) when was it established (c) in what province is it located
(d)	what has been the total capital, investment
(e)	what has been the operating profit or loss in
the years 1955 to present (f) how many:	(i)
vehicles (ii) persons, entered each of the national parks in the years 1955 to the present?
2.	Have any negotiations taken place between the government of Canada and the government of the province of British Columbia toward establishment of a national park on the Pacific coast?


UNEMPLOYMENT STATISTICS
Mr. Caouette: According to the latest reports available, how many registered unemployed are there (a) in Canada (b) in Quebec (c) in Rouyn-Noranda (d) in Val d'Or?


Alfred Dryden Hales: Return tabled.



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS


[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 1-Mr. Knowles:
That an order of the house do issue for a return showing the total amount of election expenses on

behalf of each candidate in the general election of June 18, 1962, by constituencies, as indicated in the return respecting election expenses submitted by the official agent of each candidate, as required under the provisions of section 63 of the Canada Elections Act; and showing also the names of any candidates, by constituencies, on whose behalf election expense returns have not been submitted.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 2-Mr. Knowles:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of all correspondence between the federal government, including any department, branch or directorate thereof, and drug companies, other governments and medical personnel or associations, dated since January 1, 1957, regarding the drug thalidomide (or kevadon), and also any memoranda or reports concerning the said drug in the possession of the government.
Jay Waldo Monteith: I am prepared to accept this motion subject to the usual reservations concerning communications within my department and with other departments and, of course, it will be necessary to correspond with the provincial governments as to the tabling of any correspondence with them.


Mr. Speaker:: Subject to those reservations, is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion?


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 3-Mr. Fane:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all correspondence and documents dealing with the gold rush festival exchanged between the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources or officials of his department and the chairman of the gold rush festival committee or the president of the Dawson city festival foundation.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 4-Mr. Howard:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of the report made by W. J. Morris of the University of Manitoba regarding a survey of conditions at the Red Lake Indian reserve.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 5-Mr. Howard:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of all correspondence, telegrams and other documents exchanged between the government or any department, branch, or agency thereof and a Mrs. Dorothy de Nys or any other person or organization since May 1, 1955 dealing with arrears of taxes, seizure of property to satisfy those arrears, transfer of assets and property of Mr. de Nys, and related matters.
Mr. Flemming (Vicloria-Carlelon):: I have a statement to make in connection with this motion. It is to the effect that to comply with this request would involve a disclosure with respect to the affairs of persons which would be contrary to public policy. Moreover, the secrecy provisions of section 133 of the Income Tax Act operate to preclude the taxation division from furnishing any information of this nature. I therefore trust the motion will be withdrawn.


Mr. Howard:: In view of the reference to the statutory prohibition, I request permission to withdraw the motion.
Order discharged and motion withdrawn.



PETERBOROUGH, ONT. AIRPORT SERVICES

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 6-Mr. Fisher:
That an order of the house do issue for copies of all correspondence, reports, etc. relating to the provision of airport services for Peterborough, Ontario, that have been exchanged between the government, including DOT and the Prime Minister's office, and any other persons or organizations since January 1, 1962.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 7-Mr. Lewis:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of all correspondence between the government of Canada or any minister, department or agency thereof and the international monetary fund, the export import bank, the federal reserve bank and the Bank of England concerning Canada's exchange reserves, dated since May 1, 1962, and any documents or memoranda referred to in such correspondence or otherwise exchanged between the government and the institutions named herein.
George Clyde Nowlan: Mr. Speaker, I have not had an opportunity of discussing this matter with the hon. member. I wonder whether he would allow it to stand until I discuss it further with him.


Mr. Speaker:: The minister has made the request that the motion stand. Is the hon. member prepared to let it stand?


Mr. Lewis:: Mr. Speaker, my curiosity, if nothing else, makes me agree.
Motion stands.



SASKATCHEWAN INDIANS


[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 8-Mr. Howard:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all reports of Mr. Joseph Dreaver who was employed to survey the Indians of Saskatchewan in respect of their reactions and recommendations concerning the findings of the joint committee of the Senate and House of Commons on Indian affairs.
Questions
Richard Albert Bell: Mr. Speaker, the particular written report to which this motion applies has not been received by the government and is not now expected until the month of December. In view of that fact, I wonder whether my hon. friend would be prepared to withdraw the motion at this time, without prejudice to his right to again place it on the order paper in the new year.


Frank Howard: I should be glad to, Mr. Speaker, providing we are still here in the new year.
Order discharged and motion withdrawn.



CORRESPONDENCE RESPECTING CIVIL SERVICE PAY INCREASES

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 10-Mr. Knowles:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all correspondence, and any records of discussions, exchanged between the government or any minister thereof and the civil service federation of Canada, the civil service association of Canada and the professional institute of the public service of Canada, dated since June 18,	1962,
regarding (a) pay increases in the public service, and (b) negotiating procedures and ways of resolving differences arising therefrom.
George Clyde Nowlan: Mr. Speaker, I am prepared to accept this motion with the exception of the records of discussions, which I am instructed are privileged. Otherwise I accept the motion.


Mr. Knowles:: That would be satisfactory, Mr. Speaker.


Mr. Speaker:: Subject to the reservation made by the minister and accepted by the proposer of this motion, is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion?


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 11-Mr. Laing:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of all correspondence between any and all departments of the government of Canada and all governmental departments and agencies in the United States dealing with the export of Canadian lumber to the United States.
Mr. Green:: Mr. Speaker, I ask that this motion stand.


Mr. Speaker:: The minister has asked that the motion stand. Is that acceptable?


Mr. Laing:: I will say "Oh, all right".
Motion stands.



FOREIGN EXCHANGE HOLDINGS

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 12-Mr. Turner:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of a table showing the changes in the official holdings of gold and foreign exchange, including United States dollars, held in the exchange fund
[Stage Direction]
Questions
account and Bank of Canada and showing "the total amount of exchange delivered to the market from the sales of foreign exchange", day by day, from April 9 to June 24, 1962, inclusive.
George Clyde Nowlan: Mr. Speaker, I would ask that this notice of motion be transferred for debate.


Mr. Speaker:: Pursuant to standing order 47, the motion is transferred to notices of motions (papers).



ROAD TO RESOURCES, NORTHWESTERN ONTARIO

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 13-Mr. Pickersgill (for Mr. Benidickson):
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of all correspondence since January 1, 1962, between the government of Canada and the government of Ontario respecting a proposed road to resources out from the Werner-Gordon lakes nickel mining territory and referred to by the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources on February 28, 1962, Hansard page 1339.
Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Mr. Speaker, I accept this motion subject to the concurrence of the government of Ontario.


Mr. Pickersgill:: I wonder if I could ask to have the motion stand in that case, so the minister could have an opportunity to get the concurrence before it is put to the house?


Mr. Speaker:: The request is made that the motion should stand.
Motion stands.



MINUTES OF NATIONAL PRODUCTIVITY COUNCIL MEETINGS

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 14-Mr. Howard:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of the minutes of all meetings of the national productivity council.
Mr. Hees:: Mr. Speaker, I ask that this motion be transferred to notices of motion for debate.


Mr. Speaker:: Pursuant to standing order 47 this motion is transferred to notices of motions (papers).



CERTIFICATE RESPECTING SURCHARGE ORDER IN COUNCIL

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 15-Mr. Knowles:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of the certificate, approved by the Minister	of Justice	and signed	by	theDeputy Minister	of Justice,	certifying that	thesurcharge on imports order, P.C. 1962-902, dated June 24, 1962, was examined	as required	by	theCanadian bill of	rights, also	for a copy	of	any
report or memorandum attached to the said certificate or transmitted to the clerk of the privy council, and also for a copy of the certified copy of the said order, showing any signatures or initials thereon.
Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, there was no such report or memorandum, and the law does not require it. What the law does require is that the deputy minister of justice sign a certificate in a form approved by the minister that the proposed regulation has been examined as required by the Canadian Bill of Rights. The deputy minister of justice completed the required certificate and it was attached to a copy of the order in council in compliance with the law. There is no objection to the production of a copy of the order and the certificate. Subject to these remarks, Mr. Speaker, the motion is acceptable.


Mr. Speaker:: Subject to the reservations in the remarks of the minister, is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the said motion?


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 16-Mr. Martin (Essex East):
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house copies of correspondence or any documents exchanged between the Prime Minister or the Minister of Finance or any other minister of the crown and officers of the Department of Justice or the privy council or any other government department or agency on the subject of surcharge and imports order, P.C. 1962-902, dated June 24, 1962, and the amendment to the surcharge and imports order, P.C. 1962-987, dated July 11, 1962, and the import control list as amended by P.C. 1962-903, dated June 24, 1962, with particular reference to the legality of such orders.
Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, all the documents referred to in this notice of motion are clearly privileged under well established principles and therefore cannot be produced. I would request the hon. member accordingly to withdraw his motion. If he is unwilling to do so, then obviously the question should be debated and in that event I would request that it be transferred to notices of motion, for debate.


Mr.   Marlin@Essex East: Mr. Speaker, this is one of the rare occasions when I agree with the minister. The matter should be transferred under standing order No. 47 for debate.


Mr. Speaker:: Pursuant to standing order 47 this motion is transferred to notices of motions (papers).



CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS PENSIONS

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 17-Mr. Knowles:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all communications, dated since April 13, 1962, received by the Prime Minister, relating to the subject of pensions of employees and former

employees of the Canadian National Railways, and for a copy of the replies thereto of the Prime Minister.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 18-Mr. Knowles:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all communications, dated since April 13, 1962, received by the Minister of Transport, relating to the subject of pensions of employees and former employees of the Canadian National Railways, and for a copy of the replies thereto of the Minister of Transport.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 19-Mr. Knowles:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all correspondence, letters, memoranda, etc., dated since May 1, 1962, exchanged between any of the commissioners of the restrictive trade practices commission and the Minister of Justice, and/or the deputy minister of justice, concerning the inquiry, study and anticipated report under section 42 of the Combines Investigation Act on the manufacture, distribution and sale of drugs.
Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, there are no such correspondence, letters, memoranda, etc., and I suggest to the hon. member that the motion be withdrawn.


Stanley Howard Knowles: If there is nothing, there is nothing to move for.
Order discharged and motion withdrawn.



CORRESPONDENCE WITH RESTRICTIVE TRADE PRACTICES COMMISSION

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 20-Mr. Knowles:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all letters, dated since August 9, 1962, from the Minister of Justice to the chairman and/or other members of the restrictive trade practices commission, and also a copy of all letters, since the same date, from the chairman and/or other members of the said commission to the Minister of Justice.
Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, save as to letters that are confidential and are accordingly privileged, the motion is acceptable.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Would the minister indicate what types of letters are confidential and privileged?


Donald Methuen Fleming: I received one letter from the chairman of the commission which was marked "personal and confidential". I replied to that, so obviously those two letters would be privileged. There are two other letters, which were not so marked, which I wrote, one to the chairman and the other to a member of the commission, and I am quite prepared to produce them.
Inquiries of the Ministry


Stanley Howard Knowles: Thank you. Those are the ones I want.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Yes, that is what I thought.


Mr. Speaker:: Subject to the reservations of the minister, is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the said motion?


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 21-Mr. Howard:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all briefs, letters, and submissions presented to the government or any agency or branch thereof, since January 22, 1962, dealing with Bill C-38 of the fifth session of the twenty-fourth parliament of Canada; namely, the corporations and labour unions returns bill.
Donald Methuen Fleming: The motion is acceptable, Mr. Speaker.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 22-Mr. Brewin:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of all correspondence exchanged between the Minister of Justice and the attorneys general or other provincial ministers regarding the method of amending the constitution of Canada, since April 2, 1962, when sessional paper 227 containing such correspondence up to that date was filed.
Donald Methuen Fleming: Subject to the consent of the attorneys general of the various provinces the motion is acceptable, Mr. Speaker.


Mr. Speaker:: Subject to the reservations as indicated by the minister, is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the said motion?


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. L. B. Pearson (Leader of the Opposition):: I should like to ask the Prime Minister whether the government contemplates any change in the present position regarding the acquisition of nuclear weapons or nuclear warheads for Canada's armed forces.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, there has been no change in the attitude of the government since I made a statement in the house on February 26 last.

Inquiries of the Ministry


Lester Bowles Pearson: I have a supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. I asked the Prime Minister whether the government contemplated any change in the near future.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


John George Diefenbaker: I said that was the policy at the moment. I am not going to contemplate the future. However, the position is as stated last February.


Hon. Paul Martin (Essex East):: I have a supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. In view of the reply of the Prime Minister does he not think-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Does the Prime Minister not think that he ought to direct government policy in this regard to the attention of the Minister of National Defence?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I do not think I need to comment on the nature of the supplementary. It may be an appropriate question at some other time. However, with great deference to the hon. member I would ask him just to reflect on the nature of supplemen-taries in so far as this is concerned.


Mr.   Marlin@Essex East: I rise on a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The right hon. gentleman was asked a question regarding the government's policy on nuclear weapons, and the Prime Minister stated what he believed government policy to be. I was directing the Prime Minister's attention to the fact that one of his ministers has been speaking throughout this country in a vein contrary to the declared policy of the government.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Nonsense.


Mr.   Marlin@Essex East: Surely that is proper by way of a supplementary question addressed to the Prime Minister.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I think the hon. member, in speaking on the point of order, has confirmed the view I indicated as to his supplementary, namely that he was advancing arguments or his opinion on the question.


Donald Methuen Fleming: And a very poor argument.


Mr. Harkness:: And a completely fallacious
one.


Mr. Andrew Brewin (Greenwood):: Mr. Speaker, I address my question to the Prime Minister. In view of answers given today in this house and recent press reports that the government is ready to announce its decision to acquire nuclear weapons for its armed forces in the near future, will the Prime Minister arrange for a debate in the house

on this urgently important subject in order that the people of Canada through their representatives can be fully acquainted with the issues at stake and have a say in this vital decision before it is finally made?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, whenever the first supply motion takes place there will be the fullest opportunity to discuss this or any other matter.



INQUIRY AS TO STRENGTH OF ARMED FORCES ESTABLISHMENT

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. C. M. Drury (SI. Anloine-Weslmounl):: I should like to direct a question to the Prime Minister. Yesterday, as I understood his remarks, he stated he had received some indications that the Soviet union intended to precipitate further aggression in Berlin. In the light of this, would the Prime Minister say whether it is the government's intention in the near future to fill out or fill up the establishment of the armed forces to the ceiling set by the government about a year ago, as they did the last time?


Douglas Scott Harkness: Mr. Speaker, in that connection I think perhaps I had better point out to the hon. member and to the house that the numbers in the armed forces at the present time are very considerably increased over what they were a year ago. On August 31, 1961, the total of the regular forces, navy, army and air force, was 119,440 odd. On August 31 of this year the number was 126,760 odd, and the militia has increased from 45,000 odd to 67,000 odd.



ESQUIMALT, B.C.-REGULATIONS RESPECTING POLITICAL ACTIVITIES OF CIVILIAN EMPLOYEES

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Douglas Scott Harkness: On Monday last, Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Nanaimo-Cowichan-The Islands asked a question relating to a notice having been posted at the dockyard at Esquimau. This was alleged to have been a section of the civilian personnel administrative and accounting manual, and according to the hon. member the substance of the notice was to the effect that any civilian employee was prohibited from contributing to any funds of any political party on or off the premises, or taking part in any partisan activity on or off the premises. I said at that time that I would look into the matter.
I have now been informed that the notice in question was a direct quotation from section 61 of the Civil Service Act. The relevant part of section 61 reads as follows:

No deputy head or employee shall contribute, receive, or in any way deal with any money for the funds of any political party.
As the house is aware, the Civil Service Act was passed in the house unanimously on September 20, 1961.



FINANCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Hazen Argue (Assiniboia):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to address a question to the Minister of Finance. I apologize for not having been able to give him proper notice. It arises out of the decision yesterday by the Ontario supreme court that the Ontario unconscionable transactions relief act is ultra vires. Can the minister say whether he has under consideration legislation to protect the citizens of Ontario as well as others from the exhorbitant interest rates being charged by certain lending firms.


George Clyde Nowlan: Mr. Speaker, as the hon. member states, the decision came down only yesterday. The hon. member sent me over a copy of the newspaper a few moments ago. The government has given no consideration at all to the result of the decision. There has been no consideration given at the moment to the matter of legislation concerning interest rates.



HEALTH AND WELFARE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Stanley Haidasz (Parkdale):: Mr. Speaker, in view of the announcement made this afternoon in this house by the Minister of National Health and Welfare of the sharp increase in radioactive fall-out in Toronto for the month of September, will the minister inform this house whether his expert scientific committee on radioactive fall-out have any national plan for countermeasures just in case radioactive fall-out should reach a hazardous and dangerous level?


Jay Waldo Monteith: Yes, Mr. Speaker, a plan has been under study for some months.



PRIVILEGE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Real Caouelte (Villeneuve):: Mr. Speaker, T rise on a question of privilege.
Inquiries of the Ministry Last night I was in the good city of Toronto addressing the junior board of trade, where I had 600 people attending. I was told that the leader of the Liberal party a few weeks ago had only 300. This proves the superiority of Social Credit over the Liberal party.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. While the hon. member may derive some satisfaction from the information which he has proffered to the house, I respectfully submit to him that he has not suffered any infringment of his privilege on the occasion, and therefore his whole question of privilege is quite out of order.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege. I think I have a right to inform the hon. gentleman that I was not in Toronto two weeks ago.



COMBINES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. A. J. P. Cameron (High Park):: Mr. Speaker-
(Translation):


An hon. Member:: The jokers show no respect for truth.
(Text):


Mr. Speaker:: Order. If certain members would contain themselves the Speaker would be prepared to listen to an hon. member who seeks to pose a question.


Alan John Patrick Cameron: -I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Justice, of which I have already given him notice. Will the government give consideration to the advisability of passing an order in council extending the tenure of office of retiring members of the restrictive trade practices commissions for sufficient time to allow them to complete important and urgent reports of public importance, based on established precedents in extending the term of office of a former chief justice of the Supreme Court of Canada and of retiring members of the tariff board?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I respectfully submit to the hon. member that in numerous ways he has transgressed standing order 39. I imagine he would like to look at his question in the light of that standing order.



NATIONAL GALLERY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Miss Judy V. LaMarsh (Niagara Falls):: should like to direct a question to the Min-

Inquiries of the Ministry ister of Citizenship and Immigration. I apologize to him for the fact that sufficient notice was not given. Has the national gallery of Canada taken any steps, in light of the serious accusations levelled against it that it is carelessly lending the weight of its prestige to unauthenticated and perhaps spurious paintings displayed in the Chrysler collection, to authenticate them?


Richard Albert Bell: Mr. Speaker, may I say to the hon. lady that while I am a connoisseur of beauty, my talents do not extend to the point of enabling me to be an arbiter of the authenticity of works of art. The opportunity to display the Chrysler collection was accepted by the national gallery in view of the fact that this collection is known as one of the outstanding private collections of paintings in the world.
The national gallery reaffirms its gratitude to Mr. Walter P. Chrysler and Mrs. Chrysler for their generosity in making available to the Canadian public a collection of high artistic and intrinsic values. The memorandum of agreement signed by the gallery involved an undertaking to hang the entire collection offered by Mr. and Mrs. Chrysler.
Since the collection was exhibited in the gallery some doubt has been expressed in the United States among certain art critics as to the authenticity of a certain few of the works of art displayed. It is the judgment of the director, confirmed by the board of trustees at a meeting today, that it would not be appropriate for the national gallery to become involved in the controversy concerning the alleged doubtful attributions.


Mr. Speaker:: I think both the question and the answer have confirmed my view that both of them were quite out of order in many ways at this time, the question in offering opinions and putting forward unsubstantiated views and the answer, of course, if I may say so, in being very lengthy and also in expressing opinions.
(Translation):



REQUEST FOR TRANSLATION OF WORK BY BEAUCHESNE

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. P. Cook (Monimagny-LTslet):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Prime Minister. Can he tell us whether his administration has given consideration to the request made by certain members to the effect that a French translation of Beauchesne's work be made?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I will take the question as notice.


Jean-Paul Cook: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order-
(Text) :



HIGHWAYS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Hubert Badanai (Fort William):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources. Notice of intent has been sent to him. Has a start been made on the 220-mile road to resources across northwestern Ontario which the minister announced last June and, if so, how many miles of it have been completed?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I do respectfully submit to the hon. member that his question is wildly out of order at this time.



CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Romuald Bourque (Outremoni-St. Jean):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Transport. 1 apologize for not giving him notice. Has the minister read the submission made by the graphic arts industries association to Mr. Donald Gordon concerning the declared intention of Canadian National Railways to establish a printing plant in Winnipeg for the production of commercial printing?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. There have been a series of questions in this regard which have been answered by the minister, and if the hon. member will consult Hansard I think he will see the answers that were given by the minister. In any event, I do not think the matter is of such great urgency that a question should be asked on orders of the day.


Romuald Bourque: I understand the machinery is going to be bought this week, and it will be too late after it is bought.


Mr. Speaker:: Right there the hon. member is proffering information.



SEARCH AND RESCUE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mrs. Isabel J. Hardie (Northwest Territories):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a

question to the Minister of Transport of which I have given him notice. In view of the urgent request from my constituency in the Northwest Territories where a plane carrying a pilot and three passengers has been lost for some time, what steps has the department taken to assist in the search for this plane?


Hon. Leon Balcer (Minister of Transport):: Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the hon. lady for giving me notice of her intention to ask this question, and I should like to answer that all government search and rescue responsibilities are co-ordinated under the Department of National Defence. Therefore I regret that I cannot give her the information requested; but if she will direct her question to the Minister of National Defence I am sure he can give an answer.


Isabel J. Tibbie Hardie: May I ask a supplementary question?


Mr. Speaker:: Under the circumstances I will permit the question to be redirected to the Minister of National Defence.


Isabel J. Tibbie Hardie: This is really not a military matter; it is a civilian plane.


Mr. Speaker:: The Minister of Transport has given the answer that these matters do not come under his jurisdiction but that they come under the jurisdiction of the Minister of National Defence. If the hon. member wishes to put her question to the Minister of National Defence I will permit her to do so, but to argue the point about the jurisdiction of the Minister of Transport would, of course, be quite out of order.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Mr. Speaker, there has been a very extensive search carried on by the R.C.A.F. search and rescue organization in this case. I would be very glad to give a full report to the hon. member either in written form or by way of a further report in the house if she would like that.


Isabel J. Tibbie Hardie: May I ask a supplementary question. What steps are taken by the Department of Transport to reimburse private operators who have been searching for this plane?


Mr. Speaker:: I regret that this is not a true supplementary. It is asking for detailed information, and I suggest to the hon. member that she could place her question on the order paper and undoubtedly get a very full answer in a short time.
Inquiries of the Ministry BROADCASTING



RULING OF BROADCAST GOVERNORS ON FREE POLITICAL TIME

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. R. N. Thompson (Red Deer):: Mr. Speaker, I direct my question to the Secretary of State and I apologize for not having been able to give prior notice. Has any ruling been made by the board of broadcast governors relating to the principles governing the allocation of free political broadcast time, which matter was recently referred to the board by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation?


Hon. G. E. Halpenny (Secretary of Stale):: Mr. Speaker, I do not know, but I will check with the board of broadcast governors.



HOUSING


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. R. Garland (Nipissing):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Public Works. In view of its obvious importance and urgency to the related industries, and the advisability of the country knowing the government's current thinking on the subject, will the minister say whether the government is now giving any consideration to the request of the national house builders association, as restated again yesterday, that N.H.A. mortgages should be extended to existing homes on the same terms as are now available on new construction only?


Hon. E. D. Fulton (Minister of Public Works):: Mr. Speaker, I think this question asks for an indication of government policy, to which type of question I think my hon. friend also knows the answer; but I should tell him that just today I have seen personally two members of the executive of the national house builders association. However, it would probably be a little too early for me to be in a position to announce policy.



INQUIRY OF THE MINISTRY

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Frank Howard: I should like to direct a question to the Prime Minister. Is it a fact that he intends to proffer his resignation as Prime Minister in the near future?

Inquiries of the Ministry (Translation):



CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Robert Beaule (Quebec East):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Transport and I apologize for not having sent him a notice.
Can the minister tell us if he can take steps in order that the train service be maintained between Quebec and Richmond after October 28 next?


Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker, I shall forward the inquiry to the Canadian National authorities.
(Text):



BRITISH COLUMBIA


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Barry Mather (New Westminster):: should like to direct a question to the Minister of Labour. In view of the successful start made this week on the winter works program, and in view of the heavy toll taken in Vancouver and the lower mainland area as a result of the storm, will the minister consider applications from that area for additional winter works financing for reconstruction purposes?


Hon. Michael Siarr (Minister of Labour):: We accept any project that is approved by the provincial government which comes within the scope of the plan set UP under the municipal winter works program.


Mr. T. S. Barnett (Comox-Alberni):: On
Monday last, Mr. Speaker, I directed a question to the Minister of Public Works. I welcome him back to the house from his foray in British Columbia. I should like to ask him if he can tell us the nature and extent of any damage in that province caused by the recent storm?


Edmund Davie Fulton: In view of the widespread nature of federal property in British Columbia, and in that area, I have not been able to receive a detailed report, but I expect to have one very shortly. I also hope, Mr. Speaker, that my efforts to prevent there a man-made disaster will be attended with success.


Thomas Speakman Barnett: Mr. Speaker-


Mr. Speaker:: Has the hon. member a real supplementary question?


Thomas Speakman Barnett: The main purpose of my question was to find out from the minister whether or not there was in fact any serious damage as the result of this storm. I did not expect-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member, who has been connected with this house for some time readily understands, I believe, that he cannot comment upon the nature of the reply he gets, nor can he raise a point under the guise of a supplementary.
(Translation):



CRIMINAL CODE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. P. A. Boutin (Dorchester):: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Finance, and it follows a letter received by law students of Laval University. Could the minister tell us why the cost of the Criminal Code has been increased by $2 this year?


Mr. Speaker:: In view of the fact that I explained rather at length, yesterday, what kind of questions could be put on the orders of the day, I am quite surprised that the hon. member should ask such a question at this stage, for it is not at all in order.
(Text):



CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
George Ernest Halpenny: A few days ago, Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Lapointe asked a question regarding the restrictions imposed on the C.B.C. network under the austerity program. The answer to his first question, as to whether it applied to the French and English networks, is that it applies to both networks.
The answer to part 2 of the question is, no, the Montreal staff covers the Quebec election. The English network sent one person for a few days to prepare a news magazine program.
The answer to the third part of the question is that the English network team was in Mississippi to originate a live broadcast and obtain film footage for a French network program broadcast from Montreal. The Montreal reporter was there to arrange and record interviews required for the French program. There were a limited number of these because of the language factor. The French network also made use of its Washington correspondent

to interview a representative of the Mississippi region in Washington. The cameramen with the broadcast team were filming material for both English and French programs.


Mr. Speaker:: In view of the complexity of the answer, my original view that the question was one that was better for the order paper is confirmed.



INQUIRY AS TO CANADIAN REPRESENTATION

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Lester Bowles Pearson: I should like to ask the Prime Minister whether he can give the house the name of Canada's delegate to the twentieth session of the contracting parties of GATT, which opens in Geneva I believe next Tuesday?


George Harris Hees: Yes, Mr. Speaker. It will be Mr. J. H. Warren, assistant deputy minister of the Department of Trade and Commerce.



DESTINATION OF WHEAT SOLD TO CHINA

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. R. B. Cowan (York-Humber):: I have a question of some urgency, Mr. Speaker, which I would like to direct to the Minister of Agriculture. Can he assure this house that the Canadian wheat which he has sold to China has indeed reached the communist armies so that their attack on the commonwealth of nations-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. In many respects the question transgresses the rules and is out of order.



UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. A. Byrne (Kootenay East):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Labour. In view of the drastic depletion of the unemployment insurance fund, can the minister tell the house whether he has as yet received a draft copy of the Gill committee report which, I presume, is dealing with this important question?


Michael Starr: No, Mr. Speaker.



THE BUDGET


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. E. J. Benson (Kingston):: I should like to address this question to the Minister of
Inquiries of the Ministry Finance. Does the Minister of Finance intend to bring down a supplementary budget for the year 1962-63 before the Christmas recess?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I think there have been sufficient questions in this regard that you could almost say, well, who asked what date. I think yesterday or the day before there was quite a full exchange between the Minister of Finance and the hon. member for Davenport, so that the question has been thoroughly canvassed.


Mr. Gordon:: On a point of order-


Stanley Howard Knowles: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, I should like to say that I have been involved in that questioning also and I must say that if ever there was reason for a supplementary, this is it. The questions and answers have not made it clear what is going to happen. I think the Minister of Finance should be given the opportunity of answering this question as a supplementary to try to clarify his previous attempts to answer.


Mr. Hellyer:: It is deliberate fuzz.


George Clyde Nowlan: I do not have to clarify any prior answer. Anyone who has intelligence and who can read should understand.


Walter Lockhart Gordon: On the
point of order, Mr. Speaker, I say that I think the minister is correct in saying that anybody with reasonable intelligence can understand. I understand that he does not know when he is going to bring in a budget.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I would suggest to hon. members that we can get along with the business of the house much easier if, under the guise of points of order or points of privilege, we do not get these personal opinions which have no bearing on the business of this house.



NATIONAL PARKS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Paul Joseph James Martin: May I ask
the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources if, in accordance with well established tradition, he will speak up in defence of a distinguished civil servant under his charge, Mr. Coleman, the director of national parks who has been maliciously attacked by a member of this house, the hon. member for Bow River (Mr. Woolliams)?

Inquiries of the Ministry


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I think the hon. member is quite aware that in, I believe, at least four instances he expressed rather definite opinions in his representations.


John Whitney Pickersgill: It should be replied to.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Well, Mr. Speaker,
I do not know what Your Honour meant by the remarks you have made. I asked a straightforward question in which there was no-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Mr. Speaker:: All right.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I asked a straightforward question in which I asked the minister-


Douglas Scott Harkness: You made a lot of references.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, in accordance with the tradition long recognized in this house and in parliaments throughout the commonwealth, when a civil servant working under a particular minister is attacked, that minister takes the earliest opportunity either to join in the condemnation or to defend that particular civil servant. That is the only thing I asked in this question.


Douglas Scott Harkness: It was not.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Unless Your Honour thinks my use of the word "malicious" was an expression of opinion; and if Your Honour thinks that, then I would ask Your Honour to look at the charge made by the hon. member for Bow River and see if I was not justified in my use of the word.


Mr. Speaker:: The opinion of the Speaker as to the nature of the charge does not come into this at all. The hon. member did express an opinion and I would direct his attention to that. If there were no expressions of opinion we would avoid some of these complications.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order may I call your attention to Beauchesne at page 206 where, under paragraph (2), the following appears:
As leader of the House of Commons, it is part of my duty to see that members of the public service, who are not in a position to speak for themselves during the course of debates which take place in this house, should be protected against any remarks in the nature of a reflection upon themselves, or references to their personal history such as the honourable member, I gather, was about to make. It must be obvious that members of the public service have to look to the administration for protection in the discharge of their duties; and if deputy ministers or leading public officials or any members of the public service are to be attacked here, in justice to them they should have the right to make reply on their own behalf from wherever they may happen to be. If that method were to be adopted with regard to the conduct of our public affairs I am afraid the public service
[Mr. Martin (Essex East).)
of the country could not be carried on in the manner in which the country has a right to expect it will be carried on.
Now, Mr. Speaker, I say that if the minister of northern affairs will not rise and defend this public servant, then this is clear authority that the right hon. Prime Minister should do so.


Mr. Speaker:: Be that as it may; as to the point the hon. member was trying to put by his question, it as yet does not detract from the remarks I made with regard to the way he expressed it.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Let us hear from the minister.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Mr. Speaker,
I believe the hon. member-


Mr. Fisher:: Mr. Speaker, in relation to the question-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I would like to make it clear that we are on the point of order that I raised as to the expression of opinion in questions. I am not concerned so far as to whether the minister should or should not answer. That is not germane at the moment to my point.


Douglas Mason Fisher: It is the latter point I wish to speak on.


Mr. Speaker:: I had not raised a point of order as to whether the minister should or should not answer, or whether a servant of the crown has been maligned or not. I was concerned with the nature of the question, and this is quite as important as anything else in this regard so far as I am concerned.
Therefore if the hon. member is prepared to make observations on that particular point, as to the way the hon. member for Essex East has put his question, I will hear him. The minister was prepared to say something, but whether on the point of order I cannot say.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Well, in relation to this point, Mr. Speaker, I asked two questions last week in the same period of house proceedings dealing exactly with that and, if Your Honour remembers you ruled my original question out of order because it was not urgent.
All I want to suggest in relation to the question asked by the hon. member for Essex East is that he is no more entitled to expand the right of questions than any other member of the house. It is not that I am expressing any agreement or disagreement with the intent of his question, but it seems to me that since Your Honour ruled my question out of order last week the same rule should apply now.


Mr. Speaker:: In the light of the remarks I made in so far as matters of opinion being expressed are concerned, I would assume that one could infer that the question was out of order and that it definitely infringed in that regard. As to the matter of urgency, that is relevant because from one week to another the situation changes. I personally do not feel there is that much urgency at the present time that this should be raised on orders of the day.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Do I understand, Mr. Speaker, you are now ruling my question is not in order?


Mr. Speaker:: That is correct because-


Paul Joseph James Martin: Well, Mr. Speaker, with great respect-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Mr. Speaker:: -it expressed very definite opinions, in that it used the word "malicious", and if I could have the phrasing again there were other points of opinion that were expressed. The hon. member, who is an experienced member of the house, could express his question without these terms and, if it is deemed to be urgent or if the minister is prepared to answer it, or wishes to answer it, then that is up to him.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, with great regret I appeal your ruling.


Mr. Speaker:: The house has heard the decision of the Chair, from which the hon. member for Essex East has appealed to the house. All those in favour-


John Whitney Pickersgill: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, could we have the ruling read so that we will know precisely what we are voting on? I think the house has a right to know the question.


Some hon. Members:: Sit down.


Mr. Speaker:: My ruling was that the question as expressed by the hon. member for Essex East was out of order in that it contravened section 39, paragraph 1 of standing orders. The house has heard the decision of the Chair from which the hon. member for Essex East has appealed to the house.
All those in favour of sustaining the decision of the Chair will please say yea.


Some hon. Members:: Yea.


Mr. Speaker:: Those opposed will please say nay.


Some hon. Members:: Nay.


Mr. Speaker:: In my opinion the yeas have it.
Inquiries of the Ministry
And more than five members having risen:


Mr. Speaker:: Call in the members.
Mr. Speaker put the question as follows:
The question is an appeal to the house from a decision of the Chair as follows:
The hon. member for Essex East, having posed a question concerning the head of the parks branch of the department of northern affairs, I ruled that the question was out of order in that it included expressions of opinion and thereby contravened the provisions of paragraph 1 of standing order No. 39. Whereupon the hon. member for Essex East appeals to the house from the decision of the Chair.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege.


Some hon. Members:: Order.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I am rising on a question of privilege. I raised the question when it was first posed before the house. I should like an assurance from Your Honour that the words you have just read, which I did not hear when you uttered them the first time, are in fact identical with the question which was put on the first occasion.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. If I recall aright, the hon. member for Essex East did ask me whether I was ruling the question out of order. As I remember it, my reply was yes, that I was ruling it out of order, in that it contravened paragraph 1 of standing order 39.


Some hon. Members:: Correct.


Mr. Speaker:: And that is all I have said.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, no.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Would Your Honour repeat the question?


Mr. Speaker:: If hon. members will listen to the motion as prepared, I think they will see what it did say the first time. The question is an appeal to the house from a decision of the Chair as follows:
The hon. member for Essex East, having posed a question concerning the head of the parks branch of the department of northern affairs, I ruled that the question was out of order in that it included expressions of opinion and thereby contravened the provisions of paragraph 1 of standing order 39. Whereupon the hon. member for Essex East appeals to the house from the decision of the Chair.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, on the question of privilege, it seems to me that there is a variation between the question as put by Your Honour before the bells were rung and-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, perhaps I might be allowed to be heard on a question affecting the privileges of all hon. members.

Division
The question on which we are asked to vote inserts the words "expressions of opinion" which were not in the motion as originally put by Your Honour before the bells were rung. I maintain that the question put before us now should be in the precise terms in which it was put before us when we asked for a vote.


Mr. Speaker:: I am not intending to argue the matter with the hon. member, but if he will recall I had indicated that the question contained expressions of opinion. In fact the hon. member for Essex East and the Chair exchanged views about certain words which might have been used, and it was then that I declared myself, at the request of the hon. member for Essex East, as to whether or not I was ruling the question out of order. I ruled it out of order as contravening paragraph 1 of standing order 39, and the hon. member appealed. That is all that was said.
In this regard I am quite satisfied that the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate had a legitimate question to ask for purposes of clarification, and I do not think it is subject to comment. Is the house ready for the question?


Some hon. Members:: Question.


Mr. Robichaud:: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. Before the vote is announced I wish to bring a matter to your attention and that of the house. Standing order 12, paragraph 2, reads as follows:
(2) When Mr. Speaker is putting a question, no member shall enter, walk out of or across the House, or make any noise or disturbance.
I wish to bring to your attention, Mr. Speaker, the fact that after you had put the question the hon. member for Red Deer (Mr. Thompson), the hon. member for Quebec-Montmorency (Mr. Marcoux) and the hon. member for St. Maurice-Lafleche (Mr. Lamy) entered the house and were allowed to vote. (Translation):


An hon. Member:: Cancel three of them, there are many.
(Text):


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. On the point of order that has been raised, may I say this. It is true that I was in the process of putting the question. However, the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate, having risen in his place in order to clarify in his mind and perhaps in that of other hon., members the precise circumstances which lead to the incident and the ruling I had made, received an explanation from the Speaker. Once the explanation had been given and the question had been clarified I proceeded to put the question entirely anew. The hon. members about whom the point of order is raised were then in their seats. It is therefore my opinion that they were validly in their seats at the time.
And the result of the vote having been announced: Yeas, 147; nays, 85.


Mr. Speaker:: I declare the decision confirmed.


Mr. MacEachen:: Mr. Speaker, I was paired with the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Coates). Had I voted, 1 would have voted against the ruling.


Mr. Eldon M. Woolliams (Bow River):: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of personal privilege. I challenge the hon. member for Essex East (Mr. Martin) to show anywhere where I in the house or outside the house through the medium of the press, television or radio maliciously attacked the director of 27507-3-41
Inquiries of the Ministry parks. I have never referred to him personally in any way, shape or form. As a matter of personal privilege I say that I made it very clear, on any occasion on which I have referred to the matter in question, that it was a matter of our differing on park policy and that there was nothing personal in any remarks I made. I challenge the hon. member to show where I maliciously attacked the gentleman in question anywhere, either inside this house or outside this house.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member may make an explanation but I would respectfully submit to him that he cannot launch a challenge to any hon. member while posing a point of privilege. He may make an explanation and the house must accept it but any question about a challenge to the hon. member for Essex East or anyone else is entirely out of order.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, am I not allowed to give the reasons for the question that I raised?


Mr. Speaker:: We are not going to get into a general debate at this stage of the day. There was an explanation made by the hon. member for Bow River and I have ruled entirely out of order any question of a challenge or seeking to put the hon. member for Essex East to the proof in this regard.


Mr. Chevrier:: I rise on a question of privilege. Your Honour has allowed the hon. member to explain his position arising out of the question posed by the hon. member for Essex East.


An hon. Member:: Accusation.


Lionel Chevrier: The interjection "accusation" is made, which makes it even worse. As Your Honour has listened to the hon. member, who now challenges the member for Essex East as to his veracity, it seems to me that in fairness Your Honour should hear the hon. member for Essex East substantiate his position. Otherwise Your Honour will not be dealing with equal fairness with both sides of the house.


Mr. Speaker:: Does the Minister of Public Works wish to speak on the point of order?


Edmund Davie Fulton: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I was going to make a few brief remarks, although I think most hon. members will not require to have the rule drawn to their attention. It does seem to me that it is only proper to repeat that questions or occasions of personal explanation are permitted to hon. members if their conduct has been brought into question in the house, and that is what the hon. member for Bow River did. He made a personal explanation and in the course of doing so he, as
638	HOUSE OF
Inquiries of the Ministry Your Honour has ruled, erroneously issued a challenge. That Your Honour has ruled out of order; hut as Your Honour pointed out, personal explanations when made must be accepted. Therefore, Your Honour having ruled that the challenge is out of order and a personal explanation having been made in answer to accusations from the other side, I submit that disposes of the matter and the personal explanation must be accepted by the member for Essex East, as it must by all other members of the house without debate.


Paul Joseph James Martin: On the point of privilege, I will simply say that I am being denied the opportunity of meeting the challenge put to me, and since I am denied the opportunity of providing the evidence which is at the base of the question I asked the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources I will simply have to resort to other procedures to lay before the people what the hon. gentleman did say on this matter.


Mr. Speaker:: I do not wish to repeat, but I think it is fair to comment upon the observations made by the hon. member for Laurier. I have ruled entirely out of order any challenge or calling into question by the hon. member for Bow River and putting the hon. member for Essex East to the proof thereof. If the hon. member for Essex East is permitted to substantiate the charge, then other hon. members are quite entitled to attempt to refute and we are embarked on a debate right here on orders of the day.
If the hon. member for Laurier will look into the matter of personal privilege and the statements which may be made by an individual member on orders of the day, he will see that an hon. member has a right to offer an explanation of his conduct and it is accepted as such and is not debatable. As a citation I would refer the hon. member to page 115 of Beauchesne, fourth edition, paragraph 127, section 3, in which it is said:
When a statement is made affecting an honourable member, which he denies, Mr. Speaker thinks that the house will feel that the honourable member has a right to make an explanation on a personal matter. He will not exceed an explanation of the particular matter.
The hon. member, other than for the challenge which he made, did not in my opinion exceed an explanation of the particular matter, and I would respectfully submit that the incident should be closed.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources what consideration he is giving at this time to critical views with respect to the parks policy


held by the head of the national parks board, such criticisms having been advanced by the member for Bow River?


Mr. Speaker:: In that regard I think the hon. member on reflection would see that his question is too wide and not in the terms that are really acceptable on orders of the day. Is the matter that urgent, that this is the only time the question can be asked? Could the question not be much more readily asked on the order paper?


Douglas Mason Fisher: Mr. Speaker, we have had a statement in the house by the member for Bow River on a question of personal privilege in which he said he had no malice against this civil servant but he disagrees very sharply, I would take it from his remarks, with this man's views on parks policy. Since the hon. member has just acknowledged this and as he is a supporter of the minister, surely it is relevant and urgent to ask the minister if he has given consideration to these criticisms.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Mr. Speaker, if the question is relevant I would be happy to reply briefly.


Mr. Speaker:: I think we are getting ourselves into a debate going back and forth, and I cannot in all conscience accept the question as being one for the orders of the day.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I appeal your ruling.


Mr. Speaker:: Those in favour of sustaining the decision of the Chair will please say yea.


Some hon. Members:: Yea.


Mr. Speaker:: Those opposed will please say nay.


Some hon. Members:: Nay.


Mr. Speaker:: In my opinion the yeas have it.
And more than five members having risen:


Mr. Speaker:: Call in the members.
Mr. Speaker put the question as follows:
A discussion having arisen in regard to a statement by the hon. member for Bow River, and the hon. member for Port Arthur having posed a question with regard to it. I ruled the question out of order on the grounds that it was not of the type of question that could be asked on orders of the day, and the hon. member for Port Arthur appealed to the house from the decision of the Chair.


Mr. Speaker:: 1 declare the decision confirmed.


Allan Joseph MacEachen: I was paired with the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Coates). Had I voted, I would have voted against the ruling.


Mr. Speaker:: The hour for private members' business having now arrived, we shall turn to notices of motion.



FEDERAL-PROVINCIAL RELATIONS SUGGESTED REALLOCATION OF FINANCIAL BURDEN

Mr. David Orlikow (Winnipeg North) moved:: That, in the opinion of this house, the federal government should give leadership by convening a conference of federal, provincial and municipal authorities to review the responsibilities of each level of government and their financial ability to assume same, with a view to reallocating the heavy burden for services, such as education and welfare on a more equitable basis.

Equitable Division of Tax Burden
He said: Mr. Speaker, no question is dealt with more often in the newspapers from one end of Canada to the other than the plight of the local taxpayers and their feeling that the cost of municipal government is now exorbitant. Old age pensioners living on a fixed income complain that the increases each year are forcing them to move from homes in which they have lived for generations. Young people establishing themselves for the first time are finding it increasingly difficult to meet local taxes which can range from $250 to $400 a year for quite modest homes. Tremendous increases in local taxes are not the result of extravagance or mismanagement by local municipalities. Nor can it be argued that municipalities are rushing into new fields unthinkingly. On the contrary, local municipalities are moving too slowly in meeting their responsibilities, and they themselves know it; but they are completely hamstrung by their present needs and responsibilities.
Local taxes have doubled and tripled because of the tremendous urban growth and expansion since world war II. Municipal services, utilities such as water, sewers and power, have been expanded, as have educational plant and other community facilities. Until this century it was thought that municipal governments which possessed their own sources of taxation and other revenues were able to provide for their own needs and to finance them. But since world war II it has become obvious that services such as education, public welfare, unemployment relief and health be financed by municipal governments. Therefore we have seen increasing financial participation by provincial and federal governments in these services and in other municipal undertakings in fields such as slum clearance and low rental housing. Without such assistance the municipalities would not have been able to maintain their normal services and to begin to catch up on some-and only a little-of the backlog of needed public works which were deferred during the depression of the thirties and during world war II. But even with this aid, Mr. Speaker, municipal debt has grown from $1 billion in 1950 to over $4 billion in 1960. This debt has become a first charge on municipal revenues, and will be so for generations to come.
This tremendous change has taken place in urban Canada because municipal governments are forced to assume responsibilities never contemplated when the basic municipal tax structure was established, and this change is still going on. In 1900 the tax on property could take care of most municipal


needs. The explosion in Canadian population since then and the movement of more and more people to the cities each year has meant the establishment of new and ever more costly services. These are in fact more provincial and federal in character than they are municipal. The costs are still being borne, to a great extent, by the municipal governments, but they have pushed the municipal governments to the limit.
The financial problems of local urban governments cannot be solved within the present bounds of existing municipal tax revenue structure. Municipal taxes have gone up from $483 million in 1950 to $1,349 million in 1960, an increase of almost 300 per cent. Mr. Speaker, this is not surprising at all if we examine how the municipal bill for education alone has gone up. I want to make it very clear that I for one do not think we are spending too much money on education. If anything, we are spending much too little. In fact, there are few, if any, countries in the western world who are spending as little on education as are we in Canada. If you compare five cities in five different provinces in the last ten years, you see a very interesting and real problem. In the city of Vancouver in 1951 the local municipality paid $7 million for education; in 1961 the cost had risen to $16.5 million. In the city of Winnipeg in 1951 the local government paid $5.8 million for education; in 1961 $14.1 million. In Edmonton the cost of education has gone from $4.8 million in 1951 to $15.1 million in 1961. In Toronto the cost has gone from $18.8 million in 1951 to $45.8 million in 1961. And in Montreal it has gone from $17 million in 1951 to $38.6 million in 1961. In brief, Mr. Speaker, school costs alone in these five large cities in five different provinces have more than doubled, and in some cases have tripled, in just ten years, and the prospects for the next ten years are just as dismal and just as dangerous for the municipalities. Is it any wonder that local taxpayers are up in arms?
Education costs are just one example of what has happened at the local government level. Urban renewal, express highways, hospitals, bridges, are just a few of the things needed with which the local governments are having to cope. Municipal governments are not looking for handouts. They know their responsibilities; but they do say that this kind of local need can be met only through genuine partnerships between the federal, the provincial and the municipal governments. Tremendous social capital is required if they are to begin to meet the needs of the near future. Municipal governments feel that the aid of the federal government is required as never before.

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The municipalities know that they were created by the provinces. But they believe that the federal and provincial governments have a vital stake in their financial wellbeing. They believe that urban growth and the changing needs of the urban population have given to municipal governments problems or responsibilities which they can no longer discharge without a fundamental increase in aid from the senior governments. The municipalities appreciate the increased aid they have received in recent years from both the provincial and the federal governments, but they believe that the aid so far given has been too little, too late, and too uncertain. They believe it is necessary now to reassess and re-evaluate the duties and responsibilities of all governments and their financial resources.
At its 1961 conference, the Canadian Federation of Mayors and Municipalities passed a resolution which I should like to read into the record. It is as follows:
Be it resolved that once again the government of Canada be petitioned to initiate a meeting at which representatives of the three levels of government can confer for the purpose of re-evaluating their respective fields of administrative responsibility and to discuss ways and means to re-allocate the sources of revenue available to them in the field of taxation.
Mr. Speaker, my resolution urges the house and the government to follow the sensible suggestion proposed by the Canadian Federation of Mayors and Municipalities. This proposal has been seriously and thoughtfully presented by the federation. It has the support of the vast majority of the local municipal councils across Canada. It is a matter of urgent and vital concern to every local taxpayer who has been called upon to pay substantially higher local taxes almost every year. Such a conference would help bring order and justice into the relationship between the three levels of government, federal, provincial and municipal, and it deserves the support of every hon. member of this house.


Mr. W. H. A. Thomas (Middlesex West):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to congratulate the hon. member for Winnipeg North on bringing forward this resolution for the consideration of the house. It calls for the federal government to take the leadership in convening a conference such as he has outlined of federal, provincial and municipal authorities to review the responsibilities of each level of government, and their financial ability to assume those responsibilities. Then we come to the meat of the resolution, namely the subject of financing education and social welfare. We might begin with a brief review of the responsibilities of the various levels of government. Under the British North America
Act education is dealt with in a completely separate section, namely section 93. It is set forth as follows:
93. In and for each province the legislature may exclusively make laws in relation to education, subject and according to the following provisions:-
There are then outlined four subsections which aim to take care of the minorities in the various provinces. In section 91 of the act the legislative powers of the federal government are outlined. In it there is nothing about education or social welfare. In section 92 the powers of the provincial legislatures are outlined, and in subsection 7 we find the following:
7. The establishment, maintenance, and management of hospitals, asylums, charities, and eleemosynary institutions in and for the province, other than marine hospitals.
Subsection 8 reads as follows:
8 Municipal institutions in the province.
This resolution proposes a conference between the federal, provincial and municipal authorities. There is some question as to the propriety of mentioning municipalities in this respect. As pointed out in subsection 8 of section 92 of the British North America Act, the sole responsibility for municipal institutions is left with the provincial government. Therefore if any conference is held it should be a conference between the federal government and the provinces. We might point out that very many of such conferences have been held to deal with these problems. The establishment, maintenance and management of hospitals and so on is also a provincial responsibility.
Years ago, at the time of confederation and for some time following, the responsibilities of the various levels of government in Canada were clearly defined. They were quite distinct. Methods of travel then were much slower than they are today. The means of communication was not so efficient as they are today. Local government at the municipal level had their own problems quite separate and distinct from the provincial problems and federal problems. The local problems consisted of the provision of roads, bridges, schools and other matters of purely local concern. Their materials and their labour were all local and much of the work was paid for through labour. It is not so many years ago that, in the province of Ontario, statutory labour went out of practice as far as the maintenance of our roads is concerned. I can well remember when every farmer in the rural areas was compelled by law to put in so many hours work or so many days work on the roads of his municipality. It was called statute labour. In the wintertime he was conpelled by law, if called upon to do

Equitable Division of Tax Burden so, to get out and clear the roads of snow. He was subject to penalties if he did not answer the call of the official who was then known as the pathmaster whose responsibility it was to keep the roads clear of snow.
The point I am trying to make is that in those days municipal government and municipal matters were quite separate and distinct from the higher levels of government. As time went on and standards were raised, roads became more expensive, power machinery was introduced and the old methods had to be discarded. No longer do we find the farmers working out their taxes on the roads. There is now in use for municipal purposes extremely heavy machinery which is much more efficient in clearing the roads of snow and in building roads. However, the old insulation is gone. Municipal affairs became more and more of interest to the province. The small municipalities were unable on their own to purchase the heavy equipment which was required and to build the more expensive types of roads. A system of grants therefore developed and the province began to subsidize the municipalities. It helped out the weaker municipalities and it served as a sharing of the wealth between the wealthier sections and the poorer sections of the province.
The same trend applies to education. In the early days the local people built their own schools of logs or other local materials. As time went on, standards were raised and the schools became more expensive. The cost of maintaining those schools became greater. More schools were required. More education was required. This trend has gone on until, of recent years, the little old red school-house has practically disappeared from the landscape and we have fine new central schools all across the country, at least in many areas. The costs have gone up. Again, in order to transfer some of the wealth from the larger urban centres to the small and weaker communities scattered across the country, the system of grants was developed. I think this system of grants is working very well indeed. However, the control is left in the hands of the local people. While the grants from the senior levels of government help to meet the expenses, the control is left with the local people. The control is left with the local people also in matters of welfare; and we have today our joint programs of welfare, with the cost shared largely by the federal and provincial governments and with the municipalities taking only that share of the cost which is sufficient to keep them interested in an economical administration of these programs.
It is true that the local people are carrying a great burden of taxation, but their situation
[Mr. Thomas.1

is not too desperate. For instance, we do not want to do anything, I believe, to interfere with local control. There is a special program of taxation being applied in the province of British Columbia whereby the small homeowner is exempted from most of the taxes on his home. We also have the right of the cities and urban areas in Ontario to apply special rates of assessment against the homeowner. For this reason I believe it would be unwise to take any action or adopt any policy which would tend to centralize greater control in the senior government and remove control in some measure from the municipalities.
I think that this government does feel that the rights and interests of the local governments should be protected as far as possible and I could not support any suggestion to centralize more authority in the senior government at the expense of the local governments. Our present program is working well and it is serving to spread the wealth from the areas where it appears in the greatest concentration to those areas which need assistance. While it is not stated in the resolution, I am opposed to any implication or suggestion that our present method of financing education and social welfare is inefficient or unfair because I believe the system is working very well. Within the present framework which we have set up in this country I think we can proceed to provide the services that are required by the people without destroying the local control which in my opinion is so essential to the well-being of this country.


Mr. R. W. Prittie (Burnaby-Richmond):: Mr. Speaker, the previous speaker, the hon. member for Middlesex West (Mr. Thomas), said that he thinks the system of taxation and control is working very well. I would point out to him that, as the hon. member for Winnipeg North (Mr. Orlikow) said, the resolution introduced by that hon. member is very much along the lines of one presented to the government by the Canadian Federation of Mayors and Municipalities. This body is made up of municipal representatives from all parts of Canada and of all political parties, and I would emphasize the point that they are far from satisfied.
I am not sure that members of the house who have not had experience in municipal government in recent years realize the enormity of the problems faced by local council. I refer particularly to councils in large urban areas where they have very heavy demands made upon them. I have just completed four years on the council of a very large urban area and I realize, as a few other hon. members probably do, the problems that come up week by week and the very heavy demands made upon the local budget and consequently

upon the local taxpayer. These are very real problems and, as I say, I do not think that members of this house who have not had the experience of struggling with them in recent years can quite appreciate them.
This problem will continue to grow and I suggest that in a very few years we are going to have something of an urban revolt on our hands in Canada. I think the people of the urban centres are being shortchanged in several ways. We have had some discussion recently concerning representation in this house and in most of the provincial legislatures, and I believe that the people in the larger centres are certainly shortchanged in that respect. They also appear to be with respect to the distribution of taxation revenues both from the federal government and from their individual provincial governments. They are at the grumbling stage now, but in a very few years I think they will take a much greater interest in the subject.
Not many provincial and federal elections have been fought on the basis of what to do about municipal and civic problems, but I think that day is coming and in my opinion all political parties in Canada should look at this problem and come up with programs that will help to solve the problem faced in cities. I do not think there is any party in Canada at the present time, including my own, that has a good platform on the question of municipal and civic problems.
This is a very important matter and the resolution introduced by the hon. member for Winnipeg North simply seeks to have the problem tackled. We are not suggesting what all the solutions would be, but simply that the problem should be recognized and its solution undertaken. The hon. member for Middlesex West raised some objection to any financing of education from federal sources. I think there is ample precedent for this. In fact, it is being done now. Just this morning I received a letter from the Minister of Labour (Mr. Starr) informing me that a secondary school in my municipality of Burnaby had received a grant for the building of new shops. I think there is ample precedent both at the secondary school level and the university level for federal aid in this connection. However, that is only part of the larger problem of the re-allocation of financial sources so far as the three levels of government are concerned.
Finally, Mr. Speaker, there is one point that we have to deal with here. I know that the question always comes up as to who will pay for this? It is pointed out that all governments have very great demands made upon them and how can they have the funds to meet these demands. I should like to conclude by reminding hon. members that the federal
17, 1962
Equitable Division of Tax Burden government is spending money in certain ways which I think could be spent more usefully elsewhere. We are spending a good deal of money on what we call defence. I suppose this is defence against the communist world, but I would suggest that if some of that money were re-allocated for education this would be a much better form of defence for us. I would hope that this resolution or one along these lines would receive passage this year because we cannot put off forever the problem of solving the financial difficulties of the cities and municipalities of Canada.


Mr. John B. Stewart (Aniigonish-Guys-borough):: Mr. Speaker, I agree with the hon. member who has just taken his seat that the motion now before us calls our attention to a very serious matter; and I tend to disagree with what the hon. member for Middlesex West (Mr. Thomas) said. As we all know, in this country we have one of the most complicated forms of government. It is a form of government in which there are at least three echelons, and in the nature of things it is very doubtful that we will ever attain a perfect distribution of responsibilities and financial resources. Things are always going to be more or less unsatisfactory, I submit. But here I agree with the hon. member for Winnipeg North (Mr. Orlikow) that we should not relax and drift along. Rather, we should remain alert and try to readjust ourselves to new situations and new circumstances as they develop.
We are, I think, living under a new situation and new circumstances. It is true that our constitutional arrangement is an old one. It is true also, Mr. Speaker, that by practice and by legal alteration we have modified that constitutional structure somewhat to suit our new circumstances. What we find is that our economy and our society are becoming more and more tightly integrated so that developments on the national scene now impinge upon activities which were once thought to be local and private, of concern to the individual or family, school district, or municipality. In order to get a job or to survive in our society, the individual must have certain kinds of education and certain kinds of services. For the individual, there is in this society no escape. The relationship is reciprocal. If the individual is to make a contribution to our nation he must have those same kinds of education, those same kinds of services.
We must undertake, therefore, not simply by reading certain sections of the British North America Act, 1867, to assure in the interests of both the individual and the nation that these kinds of education and these kinds of services are generally available. Let me refer for a minute to precollege education. Many of the
644	HOUSE OF
Equitable Division of Tax Burden young men and young women of Nova Scotia, for example, leave that province-reluctantly, of course-to find jobs or positions in other parts of Canada. I hear a seconding response from across the floor, and I realize that I have finally spoken the truth.


Robert Jardine McCleave: They are spreading civilization.


John B. Stewart: These young men and these young women are taking their developed talents, their time and energy, and giving them to other societies across the country. We are, of course, sorry to see them go but we realize this movement is part of the natural order of things. For the moment, Mr. Speaker, the burden of conferring this education upon those young people-I am using Nova Scotia as an example-is falling upon the people of the province. This burden is especially heavy in the case of a province such as Nova Scotia where it has to be a tax burden on what is generally unproductive property, that is houses and facilities for living which are not part of the productive portion of our economy.
This high cost of education, which in the national interest is absolutely indispensable, is taxing some of our Nova Scotia municipalities to desperation. Here I am not speaking merely in terms of generality, because I know of specific instances where this is true, specific instances where the tax rate is so high I am sure the hon. member for Middlesex West (Mr. Thomas) would be quite horrified and would not stay there. Education, which used to be a matter of local concern, has become a matter of national concern. Yet, the primary financial responsibility for education rests with the locality. Something of the same anachronism, something of the same inability to adjust to the new times, is found in some of the welfare fields. I feel that this is a situation which is going to grow worse.
For example, sir, the winter works program may be beneficial to towns and cities where certain kinds of projects need to be done and where there is a certain amount of financial competence to enter upon these projects. However, the program fails to hit the bull's eye in the target in many of our poorer municipalities. As I say, the situation may grow worse. We have heard something from the official opposition and the other opposition party of the need for social capital investment in our affluent society. Now, if this investment is to be a municipal investment aided by partial grants or by long term loans, I suspect that quite a number of our municipalities will be left hopelessly behind because they simply will not be able


to participate. I submit that to both the official opposition and to the other opposition party.
Now, it may be argued, Mr. Speaker, that a province such as Nova Scotia intervenes to help its municipalities to meet their responsibilities. Indeed, this argument has been made. This is true, but the financial ability of a province such as Nova Scotia-I am sure that there are other provinces similarly situated-is severely limited.
This brings us to the iniquitous principle underlying the new federal-provincial tax sharing agreements. The fact that the hon. member for Middlesex West is from one of the most prosperous provinces in this country probably explains why he did not refer to this iniquitous principle. In the very short run this principle is of some advantage to Nova Scotia. However, in the not so very long run, this principle will be highly disadvantageous. The Atlantic provinces adjustment grants are fixed. The equalization payments under the federal-provincial fiscal arrangements will be based on the annual average yield of the three standard taxes rather than the yield in the two highest provinces, as formerly. The great argument in defence of the new arrangement is that it gives the provinces the right to impose their own personal income taxes. This argument, I think, appeals to the hon. member for Middlesex West, but it is not an argument that appeals to me. It is an argument that is relevant only to those provinces in which there is a comparatively high level of personal income. If this new principle is followed for long, provinces such as Nova Scotia will be less and less able to assist the municipalities.
I think it would be a tragedy, Mr. Speaker, if our municipalities and some of our provinces were unable to finance these services which are essential to our nation, essential educational programs, essential welfare programs. It would be national folly if the municipalities and some of our provinces were not able to provide these services, while millions of dollars are spent on defence establishments which are certainly of very dubious value. So, Mr. Speaker, I concur with the hon. member for Winnipeg North that the motion which he has set forth calls to our attention a matter of first rate importance, a matter which requires urgent action.


Mr. J. R. Sams (Wentworth):: Before I comment on the remarks made by other hon. gentlemen in this house, Mr. Speaker, I should like to convey to you my sincere congratulations on your elevation to this high office. The main problem facing Canadian municipalities and, consequently, Canadian

taxpayers today, is not necessarily the cost of services rendered by local governments, but rather the allocation of those costs. As the hon. member for Winnipeg North pointed out, there is an ever increasing burden of taxation being imposed on all property owners for the costs of education and welfare services. Indeed the cost of education alone is perhaps the largest single factor Canadian taxpayers have to face today. It is an item which will continue to grow, and if the present trend continues, especially in our urban municipalities, we shall see each year in Canada a new city, or the equivalent of a new city with population of some 80,000 citizens.
In my humble opinion increased grants from federal or provincial authorities are not in themselves the answer. They are merely a deferment of the basic problem itself. The existence of our Canadian provinces and municipalities goes back to the Baldwin Act of 1849 and the British North America Act. These statutes set out the constitutional responsibilities and have clearly defined the precept that municipalities are creatures of the provinces. Consequently throughout succeeding years the federal government has made grants and contributions and entered into tax sharing agreements with the municipalities through their parent provinces. As the size of municipalities grows-and in some cases they are now larger than our smaller provinces-and as their administration becomes more complex, they seek ways and means of streamlining and modernizing their functions to meet the current needs of a vibrant population.
There are many municipal associations across our country and the subject of tax sharing responsibilities comes up at each of their annual conventions and regional meetings. The Canadian Federation of Mayors and Municipalities is notable among these in its search for good dominion-provincial relations, and the representations which have been made have resulted in a substantial difference in the payments to municipalities through their parent provinces.
Recent studies have been made on the composition and financing of local government, and I am happy to inform hon. members that the latest and perhaps most notable of these concluded just last month with the return to Canada of a number of Ontario elected and appointed officials representing Ontario municipalities and the provincial government, who spent several weeks in the United Kingdom, western Europe and the Scandinavian countries where they studied the structure and taxation methods adopted in those countries.
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The association of Ontario counties, to the directorate of which the hon. member for Peterborough (Mr. Stenson) and myself have the honour to belong, has for the past three years been undertaking a detailed study of the various types of municipal government administration and their financial and other relationships with the province. It has also been undertaking a very significant study of similar forms of government in the states of New York, Michigan and Florida. Mr. Delby J. Bucknall, president of this association, is one of the group I mentioned earlier, as well as Mr. Allan F. Stewart, clerk-treasurer of Wentworth county and a number of other notable men in public life in the province of Ontario.
The Ontario provincial legislature has recently appointed a special committee to inquire into and make recommendations on the Ontario municipal act and other related acts, with a view to suggesting amending legislation which would recognize and meet the changing conditions in the province, and most pronounced, the change which has taken place in our society brought about by instant communication and rapid transportation.
Over the years the federal government has entered into a number of programs which are of interest to municipalities, and have directly offset the sharp upswing in municipal taxes paid by property owners. Federal-municipal programs, tax sharing agreements, and grants in lieu of taxes are not new terms in this house and I believe all hon. members, being aware of the problems in their constituent municipalities, will agree with me that these burdens have been somewhat lessened by legislation and action on these matters undertaken by this government and, indeed, by legislation which was introduced by the government of hon. members opposite.
Being cognizant of our responsibilities to the taxpayers, as we all must be, our first consideration has to be the redistribution of this so-called wealth along more equitable lines. To this end I suggest that the findings of the royal commission on taxation, which has already commenced its proceedings, will make available to this house the necessary information to formulate a policy which the hon. member for Winnipeg North seeks in his resolution. I would also respectfully point out to the hon. member that studies are currently underway in several other provinces to suggest the re-allocation of financing which he desires.
The challenge which lies before our municipal leaders in moulding the future of Canada's local government is perhaps best illustrated by the words of the Hon. Fred M. Cass, Q.C., minister of municipal affairs for Ontario, speaking to the delegates attending

Equitable Division of Tax Burden the twenty fifth annual conference of the Canadian Federation of Mayors and Municipalities in Winnipeg last June. He said:
If we are to achieve the basic goal of providing a better community life for our people, we must have an intelligently informed people-a public aware of the problems and costs, and a public willing to accept the responsibilities and obligations of our way of life.
The Baldwin Act, commonly referred to as the confederation act of local government in Canada, which established our provincial-municipal relationships, has been amended from time to time as the need for change has arisen; but perhaps one of the most recent and significant changes to take place in this field was the action by the Alberta legislature in the development of their county system of government, in which a greater control by elected officials was given in matters of education financing and administration.
This trend towards localization, yet centralization of tax collecting and tax spending, is viewed with alarm in some quarters. Among some there is a fear of losing local autonomy and local identity. This may be seen where local municipal elections are won or lost on the simple issue of a central school. In addition to this we can see an endless parade of annexation and amalgamation hearings necessitated by the desire for more industrial assessment, and pointing out the obvious need for changes in our taxing laws. I have every confidence that the capable personnel of the commission currently undertaking this study will be supplied with sufficient representations from our provinces and municipal associations so as to make their findings a complete reflection of the Canadian scene.


Mr. Guy Marcoux (Quebec-Montmorency):: May I rise on a question of privilege, please?


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: The hon. member for Quebec-Montmorency on a point of privilege.


Guy Marcoux: If you will please put on your earphone.
(Translation):
Mr. Speaker, even though we constitute a so-called minority party, could you possibly recognize a member of our group who would like to speak on private members' motions, which are being considered between five and six o'clock?
I noted that two socialist members had the opportunity to speak, as well as two or three government members and also members of the official opposition. On the other hand, a member of our group rose on several occasions without being recognized.
Therefore, I wonder whether the Speaker will recognize our members in the future or
whether it would be better to ask Social Crediters never to prepare themselves to deal with those matters.
(Text):


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: I apologize to the hon. member for Portneuf (Mr. Frenette). Unfortunately I had cast my eyes to the other side of the chamber and when I cast them back I saw he had, indeed, risen to his feet. I assure the hon. member I will be most careful in future as to the fair apportionment of the time available for consideration of private members business.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Lionel Chevrier: I should like to ask the leader of the house what it is the intention of the government to do tomorrow and on Friday. Perhaps we might also have some indication of what the business would be on Monday.


Mr. Churchill:: My practice in other sessions was to announce the business for the following week on Thursday evening and not earlier than that. Tomorrow we shall be continuing the order of business we had hoped to reach today. The first item will be the resolution in the name of the Minister of Agriculture dealing with the Farm Credit Act, No. 24 on today's order paper. Second, we would take the second reading of Bill No. C-3 to amend the Food and Drugs Act, No. 2 on today's order paper and, after that, three items standing in the name of the Minister of Transport-second reading of Bill No. C-58 to amend the Carriage by Air Act, No. 9 on the order paper; second reading of Bill No. C-59, to approve an agreement between the government of Canada and the government of the province of Ontario, which is No. 10 on the order paper, and the resolution to amend the Aeronautics Act, which is No. 21 on the order paper.
On Friday we hope to move into supply to ask for interim supply for a period of one month, as is normal under the circumstances.


Lionel Chevrier: Will we consider interim supply on Friday, even though we may not have disposed of the several items the leader of the house has announced for Thursday?


Gordon Minto Churchill: I will leave that open to see what progress we make tomorrow. If the house deals with the five items it will be easy to go into interim supply.


[Stage Direction]
It being three minutes after six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[Stage Direction]
Thursday, October 18, 1962