1962-10-15

Hon. Alvin Hamilton (Minister of Agriculture):: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to inform the house of a major milestone in the development of the ARDA program; that is, the signing of agreements between the federal and provincial governments for implementation of the ARDA program in eight provinces, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island, Quebec, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and British Columbia. Also, Mr. Speaker, I have just this morning received word that the provinces of Newfoundland and Ontario have signed the general agreement.
These agreements launch the program into action by permitting approval of a wide range of individual projects, and open a broad new held for joint federal-provincial action to develop rural areas and resources. The agreements list nearly forty types of joint projects to permit a broad scale attack on the development problems of Canada's rural areas.
The general agreement provides for a maximum federal contribution of $50 million for programs and projects in all provinces during the initial three year period covered by the agreement. I regard this as a sound investment in economic health and increased productivity in our rural areas. Although these initial agreements are for a three year period only, ARDA is of course designed as a long term program. We are going to use the three years to undertake a large number of pilot projects and extensive research, and to work out the best means of implementing the program's long term goals.
This program has very great import for rural areas, but it has growing importance also for urban dwellers whose need for efficiently produced food and for land for recreational and residential purposes makes their stake in the wise use of the resources of rural areas increasingly great.
Mr. Speaker, I am pleased indeed that the machinery and working policy are now being established through federal-provincial cooperation to get the program into action. I would like to herewith table the general agreement, which is uniform with the provinces, for :he information of members of the house.
27507-3-32J


Mr. Speaker:: Has the minister the unanimous approval of the house to table this general form of agreement?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Mr. Hazen Argue (Assiniboia):: It is almost two years since the government introduced the ARDA program, and we have been waiting ever since those days for some indication of concrete action. The statement made to the house this afternoon by the Minister of Agriculture does not necessarily mean concrete action as I understand it; it is a general statement, and as far as I can understand from the minister no specific projects have been agreed on.


Mr. Benidickson:: Not one.


Hazen Robert Argue: The minister went on to say- and I was disappointed in this-that for three years the governments concerned intend to spend their time on pilot projects and on research. I had assumed from the minister's words in the past that he had a program. We thought he was about to launch it, and we thought in a short time it was going to change the face of agriculture in Canada. We see now that there are no concrete projects; this is only a general agreement.
The minister has set the amount involved at a maximum of $50 million. I would only point out that under P.F.R.A., a restricted program in the sense that it applies to only a restricted part of the country, far larger sums have been spent on occasion.
We shall continue to await evidence of concrete action by the government in this field.


Mr. A. B. Patterson (Fraser Valley):: We
appreciate the announcement which the Minister of Agriculture has just made. We recognize the need for concerted efforts being made in this direction-in fact the need is long overdue-to resolve many of the problems which are facing the farming communities right across the country.
As has been pointed out, this is a general statement, as we do not know what is involved. However, most of the provinces have already agreed to the terms of this measure, so we in this group welcome the announcement and shall look forward to the legislation being brought before us.


Mr. H. W. Herridge (Kootenay West):: Mr. Speaker, while the members of this group would not go so far as to term this statement by the minister as peanuts, we must say there

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has been considerable irritation and criticism in some quarters at the delay in action with respect to the ARDA program to date. That criticism has been evidenced in farm periodicals and as a result of meetings of farmers' organizations, and on the part of some farmers themselves who expected far earlier action on the part of this government.
Anyway, we are pleased to hear of this start. We expect the minister to keep the public informed of developments and of progress through periodic announcements to this house. In that connection, Mr. Speaker, we look forward to hearing his announcements week by week as to the steady and concrete progress made in the development of this program, which we all support in principle, but wish to see given effect in detail.



QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. Martin (Essex East): 1.	Is the government carrying on any research to determine the cause of phocomelia and similar deformities in newborn babies?
2.	Have any government grants been made to any individuals or organizations for the purpose of carrying on medical research into the cause of phocomelia?
3.	How many cases of deformities at birth have been reported to the government in the past year?
4.	How many cases have been attributed to the use of thalidomide during pregnancy?
5.	In cases not directly attributable to the use of thalidomide, has any other cause of deformity been shown?
Answer by: Mr. Monteilh:
1.	The Department of National Health and Welfare in co-operation with the academy of medicine and the pharmaceutical association of Ottawa is conducting a pilot study of the use of thalidomide by pregnant women.
2.	No requests have been received and no government grants have been made directly and specifically for this purpose. Under the national health grants program grants have been given to individuals to support research which may assist in understanding the cause of phocomelia. This includes several projects in the general field of genetics as well as a number of perinatal mortality studies.
3.	There is no routine reporting of birth deformities to the federal government other than those appearing on stillbirth and death certificates. During 1961 the dominion bureau of statistics reported 2,192 deaths of infants and 835 stillbirths attributed to congenital malformations. These deaths and stillbirths are those for which the underlying cause is one of the diseases or conditions specified in the world health organization international

classification, section XIV congenital malformations with respect to deaths, or specified in the classification of causes of stillbirth (Y38), congenital malformations of foetus, in the case of stillbirths.
The provinces have been asked for additional information about congenital anomalies at birth, and some further information should be available later.
In six of the provinces there is provision for reporting congenital abnormalities in live births and stillbirths on a physician's notice of live birth or stillbirth, but there is no regular and uniform tabulation of the data for these provinces. However Ontario, for example, has published data from this source for the years 1959, 1960, as follows:
1959: Live born infants with congenital malformations ....	1,630
Rate per 1,000 live births . .	10.4
1960: Live born infants with congenital malformations ....	1,796
Rate per 1,000 live births	11.3
Stillbirths	 270
Rate per 1,000 live births . .	2.3
The term "birth deformities" and such similar expressions as congenital abnormalities, anomalies or malformations are not specific and may include relatively minor, superficial or temporary defects.
The occurrence of congenital anomalies, including problems of definition, classification and reporting, is under study in the Department of National Health and Welfare.
4.	See answer above.
The number of deformities considered to have been caused by thalidomide is not known but data are being sought from the provinces and through the appropriate professional associations. As the inquiry is not complete an estimate cannot be made at this time. In any case, the proportion of all birth deformities which may be associated with thalidomide is expected to be small.
5.	No other specific causes have been shown for these cases. Among other possible causes of congenital malformation are genetic factors, German measles and other infective diseases in the mother during pregnancy, and other conditions of the mother.


FOREIGN AID AND DEVELOPMENT
Mr. Herridge: Has any communication been received, either directly or indirectly, from the president of the world bank asking Canada to channel a larger part of her foreign aid through international organizations and asking Canada to contribute a substantial sum to the international development association and. if so, what answer has been given?


IS, 1962
[Stage Direction]
Answer by: Mr. Grafiley:
The board of governors of the international development association at its recent meeting in Washington had before it a proposal, supported by the president of the association and the world bank, requesting the executive directors "to consider the prospective financial requirements of the international development association, and to prepare and submit a report thereon to the board of governors of the association at the earliest date, if possible before December 31, 1962." The board of governors adopted this resolution. No suggestions have been made concerning prospective financial contributions by individual members of the association.
5bx plan for physical fitness
Mr. Herridge: 1.	Who authored the R.C.A.F.'s 5BX plan for physical fitness?
2.	Has any communication been received from Dr. William Orban in this matter and, if so, what was the nature of the communication, and the nature of the government's reply?
Answer by: Mr. Harkness:
1.	Some 25 R.C.A.F. officers and civilians employed by the R.C.A.F. took an active and creative part in the preparation of the 5BX plan.
2.	Representations were received from Dr. Orban, or were made on his behalf, relating to Dr. Orban's claim that he be given public recognition as the author of the 5BX plan and be suitably recompensed. In reply, it was acknowledged that Dr. Orban played an important part in the project and his contribution was fully appreciated. However, since several persons were involved in the preparation of the plan, authorship was not attributed to any one individual.


DUTCH NEW GUINEA
Mr. Herridge: Has the United Nations organization asked Canada to provide personnel for an administrative force in Dutch New Guinea and, if so, what were the details of the request, and what was the nature of the government's reply?
Answer by: Mr. Green:
The United Nations has not asked Canada for assistance of a purely administrative nature for the United Nations temporary executive authority in West New Guinea, but a request was made for both military and technical assistance in support of the United Nations administration. On August 16, 1962, the acting secretary general asked Canada to provide:
(a) an air adviser of wing commander rank to serve at United Nations security force headquarters;
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(b) two amphibious Otter aircraft with air and ground crews and spare parts.
Canada acceded to the request in full and all personnel and equipment required arrived in West New Guinea on September 2. All costs except regular monthly salaries will be borne by the United Nations, and both personnel and equipment are expected to return to Canada on or shortly after May 1, 1963.
On September 27, 1962, the United Nations Organization asked Canada to provide a diesel engineer for duty in West New Guinea. This request is being sympathetically considered.
'skilled workers from west indies

Question No. 12-Mr. Herridge:
1.	Has the Department of Citizenship and Immigration sent a team or teams to the West Indies to encourage the immigration to Canada of skilled West Indians under the new regulations and, if so. have any protests or communications been received from West Indian governments criticizing the new immigration regulations and the activities of the immigration teams on the grounds that they tend to attract to Canada skilled workers which the West Indies can ill afford to lose, and what answers, if any, have been made by the government?
2.	Is it planned to send further teams?


Mr. McGee:: The answer to part 1 is that an immigration team toured the West Indies in June and July of this year, not to recruit skilled migrants but rather to interview persons who had already applied, on their own initiative, for admission to Canada. No protests or communications criticizing the new immigration regulations and the activities of the immigration team have been received from any West Indian government.
The answer to question 2 is that the question of sending another team to the West Indies for a similar purpose is under consideration.
'birth deformities by provinces


Mr. Knowles: 1.	What are the numbers per thousand by provinces of birth deformities in 1959, 1960, 1961 and 1962 to date?
2.	How many of these deformities are considered to have been caused (a) by nuclear tests (b) by thalidomide?


Mr. Monieilh:: This question calls for a verbal answer, Mr. Speaker, but actually it is quite lengthy and includes a statistical table. I wonder whether I might have permission to have the answer inserted in Hansard as read?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Mr. Speaker:: How long is the answer, including the statistical table? How many foolscap sheets does it contain?


Jay Waldo Monteith: Two sheets including the table.

Questions


An hon. Member:: Order for return.


Mr. Speaker:: There is open to members of the house an alternative. If a minister or whoever is answering a question has a very-lengthy answer, the question may be made an order for return and the return then tabled immediately.


Jay Waldo Monteith: I would so suggest.


Some hon. Members:: No.


Mr. Knowles:: May I suggest that the minister stick with his first suggestion.


Mr. Pickersgill:: Which suggestion was
agreed to.


Mr. Speaker:: Then the answer will appear in Hansard as though it had been read.
[Editor's note: The answer referred to above is as follows:]
1.	This information is not collected nationally at present with respect to all birth deformities. The numbers of infant deaths attributed to congenital malformations, by province, for the years 1959, 1960, 1961, as reported by the dominion bureau of statistics, are shown in a table with the corresponding rates per hundred thousand live births. These deaths are those for which the underlying cause was one of the diseases or conditions specified in the world health organization international classification, section XIV, congenital malformations (Nos. 750-759).
In six of the provinces there is provision for reporting congenital abnormalities in live births and stillbirths on a physician's notice of live birth or stillbirth, but there is no regular and uniform tabulation of the data for these provinces. However Ontario, for example, has published data from this source for the years 1959, 1960, as follows:
1959: Live born infants with congenital malformations	1,630
Rate per 1,000 live births ... 10.4 1960: Live born infants with congenital malformations	1,796
Rate per 1,000 live births ... 11.3
Stillbirths	 270
Rate per 1,000 live births ...	2.3
The term "birth deformities" and such
similar expressions as congenital abnormalities, anomalies or malformations are not specific and may include relatively minor, superficial or temporary defects.
The occurrence of congenital anomalies, including problems of definition, classification and reporting, is under study in the Department of National Health and Welfare.
2.	(a) The relationship, if any, between radiation exposure due to nuclear tests and occurrence of somatic or genetic effects is
IMr. Monteith.]
not yet clearly established. Any genetic effects would be manifest over many subsequent generations. Somatic effects have only been found with much higher radiation doses than those associated with nuclear testing.
(b) The number of deformities considered to have been caused by thalidomide is not known but data are being sought from the provinces and through the appropriate professional associations. As the inquiry is not complete an estimate cannot be made at this time. In any case, the proportion of all birth deformities which may be associated with thalidomide is expected to be small.
Infant deaths attributed to congenital malformations (International classification section XIV Nos. 750-759)
Infant Death Rates per 100,000
Infant Deaths Live Births
Province	1959	1960	1961	1959	1960	1961Newfoundland	.. 73	64	79	492	422	507Prince Edward Island 	.. 13	12	15	478	439	529Nova Scotia ..	.. 86	93	90	452	486	464New Brunswick 71	76	80	431	465	482Quebec 	.. 738	668	740	518	435	539Ontario 	.. 655	664	693	417	417	440Manitoba 	.. 88	100	98	386	430	421Saskatchewan	. . 108	83	92	444	345	383Alberta 	.. 155	169	182	407	433	468British Columbia 157	142	116	393	354	301Yukon 	.. 2	1	1	372	186	179Northwest Territories ..	.. 3	4	6	303	366	537CANADA	2,149	2,076	2,192	448	434	461Note: There	were	also	1,008,	970 and 835	stillbirths attributed to congenital malformations (Y38) in the years 1959, 1960, 1961, respectively.
Source: Dominion bureau of statistics annual reports of vital statistics for the years 1959, 1960, 1961 data from d.b.s. by telephone.


*D.V.A. HOSPITALS  RADIATION LEAVE
Mr. Berger: Was radiation leave cancelled or reduced for persons employed as X-Ray technicians in hospitals administered by the Department of Veterans Affairs on or about August of this year and, if so. how many employees were affected by such cancellation or reduction?


Mr. Churchill:: The civil service regulations which became effective April 1, 1962, under the new Civil Service Act do not contain the provision which was included in previous regulations for one week's additional vacation leave for certain employees working in X-ray departments of federal hospitals. However, the regulations provide for leave with pay, with no limitations, to be granted to employees who are found, as a result of regular physical examination, to be in need of such leave because of exposure to radioactivity. It is understood that this is the practice in nonfederal hospitals. The establishment of the Department of Veterans Affairs provides for 87 X-ray operators who may be affected by this regulation.


MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES
Mr. Macnaughton: 1.	Has the minister, or the Department of National Health and Welfare, taken any steps to implement the proposals contained in the private member's resolution, concerning mental health, which was unanimously supported and adopted by this house on December 5, 1960?
2.	Has the minister given consideration to the recent report by the Canadian Mental Health Association, entitled Mental Health Services in Canada, released in January, 1962, and the report of the study commission on psychiatric hospitals in the province of Quebec; and, has any action been taken in regard to the proposals set out in these reports?
3.	Has the minister received any representations from medical persons, boards, or associations, concerning the utilization and size of the mental health grant; and, if so, what, in substance, were such representations?
4.	Has the government considered increasing the grant sufficiently to meet the existing needs in this field?
5.	Since 1958, how many provincial governments have requested the inclusion of mental hospitals in the federal hospital insurance program (Hospital Insurance and Diagnostic Services Act) ?
6.	Has the royal commission on health services been given any special instruction to study mental health services in any particular?
7.	Has the government given any consideration to the introduction of measures necessary to bring about an improvement in mental health and motivation so essential in the development of physical fitness, such as, guidance clinics, school mental health programs, family counselling, and pre-and post-natal health services?
Answer by: Mr. Monteith:
1.	The advisory committee of the Department of National Health and Welfare on mental health considered the private member's resolution and resolved in March 1961 and again in March 1962:
That the advisory committee on mental health approves the resolution adopted in the House of Commons on December 5, 1960, which called on the government to "consider the advisability of co-operating with the provincial authorities and such professional and other groups as may be interested, in making a national survey of the extent of mental illness, its causes, problems and methods of treatment", and considers favourably the advisability of a national survey.
That the advisory committee on mental health supports the resolutions by the Canadian Psychiatric Association and the Canadian Mental Health Association; and recommends that these resolutions be brought to the attention of the royal commission on health needs in the most appropriate manner.
That in the event that the general purposes of the Macnaughton resolution are not implemented by the royal commission on health needs the subject be brought again before the advisory committee on mental health.
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It is understood that several briefs to the royal commission on health services brought this matter to the attention of the commission.
2.	(a) A formal and final report by the Canadian Mental Health Association on the subject Mental Health Services in Canada has not, to the knowledge of the Department of National Health and Welfare, been issued. (The preliminary draft report bearing the above mentioned title was studied by representatives from various provinces and organizations at an institute supported by the department held in Ottawa in January 1962).
(b) Copies of the report of the study commission on psychiatric hospitals in the province of Quebec were received by the Department of National Health and Welfare in August 1962. Action is not contemplated on the proposals set out in the report since these come within provincial jurisdiction. However officers of the department have had a number of consultations with provincial officials with regard to these proposals.
3.	Representations have been received that the mental health grant should be increased and provision be made for annual increases in accordance with the growth of population.
4.	All national health grants, including the mental health grant, are under continuous study in order to provide suitable federal assistance on behalf of provincial health programs.
5.	Subsequent to discussions concerning the inclusion of mental hospitals under the Hospital Insurance Program at the dominion-provincial conference held in November 1957, the inclusion of these hospitals was raised by Prince Edward Island, Nova Scotia, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and British Columbia at the dominion-provincial conference in July 1960.
6.	No special instructions have been given to the royal commission on health services. Its terms of reference remain as initially laid down by the government.
7.	No, the government has not considered the specific introduction of particular measures to bring about improvements in mental health. The existing health agreements between the federal and provincial governments afford adequate means of working out in a co-operative way extensions and improvements in such services as guidance clinics, school of mental health programs, family counselling, and prenatal and postnatal health services.


ASSISTANCE TO PROVINCIAL MENTAL HEALTH PROGRAMS
Mr. Macnaughton: 1.	During 1960-61, how many projects were not approved, or reduced in amount, because the Department of National Health and Welfare did

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not have funds allocated to assist the provinces with an orderly development of their mental health programs?
2.	During 1960-61, how many hospital construction projects have been refused, or reduced in amount, because the Department of National Health and Welfare did not have funds allocated to assist the provinces with an orderly development of hospital facilities?
Answer by: Mr. Monteiih:
1.	The mental health grant, increased in the year 1960-61 to $8,765,391 from the previous amount of $7,234,868, was allocated to the provinces for that year under the terms of order in council of March 3, 1960 (P.C. 1960 18/257).
The provinces submitted projects for the development of their mental health programs within the amounts of allocation.
In one province only, which submitted projects in excess of the allocation of the grant, 20 projects had to be rejected or reduced.
2.	No hospital construction project was refused or reduced in amount during the year 1960-61.


* HAWKER SIDDELEY LTD., N.S.  FEDERAL ASSISTANCE FOR STEEL OPERATIONS
Mr. Maclnnis: 1.	Has the government of the province of Nova Scotia asked the federal government of Canada for financial assistance aimed at maintaining and, or, expanding the steel operations of Hawker Siddeley of Canada Limited, located in Sydney, N.S., and, if so, what is the amount of the assistance requested?
2.	Has Hawker Siddeley of Canada Limited approached the federal government requesting financial assistance with a view to expanding their steel operations in Canada?


Mr. Diefenbaker:: 1.	A request for assistance was made during discussions of the economic situation in Cape Breton but a specific amount was not proposed. I might say that negotiations have been carried on for some time between Dosco and the government of Nova Scotia, and the federal government has been kept informed. The government of Nova Scotia has indicated that if agreement is arrived at whereby financial assistance will be needed, it will then make requisite representations to the federal government.
2.	No.


CHAMPLAIN COUNTY, QUE.  FARM LOAN APPLICATIONS
Mr. Matte: 1.	How many applications for farm loans have been made in the county of Champlain since January 1. 1960?
2.	What are the names of each of the persons to whom loans were made, and what is the amount of each such loan?
3.	What are the names of those whose application for a loan was turned down?
Answer by: Mr. Hamilton:
1. 11.
2.	Because of the confidential nature of the Farm Credit Corporation's business dealings with individual farmers, it is not considered in the public interest to divulge the names of applicants and borrowers. However, six loans have been approved in the following amounts: $26,800; $25,500; $20,000; $8,700; $8,400; and $8,300. Two more applications were being processed as of October 1, 1962.
3.	Three loan applications were declined in the period January 1, 1960 to October 1, 1962. With regard to the names of the applicants, see 2 above.


JOYCEVILLE PENITENTIARY
Mr. Matheson: 1.	When, why, and at what cost was a fence erected around Joyceville institution?
2.	How many escapes have occurred since the fence was erected?
3.	How many escapes occurred in a similar period prior to the erection of the fence?
Answer by: Mr. Bell (Sainl John-Albert):
1.	Completed on February 19, 1962, to improve the security of the institution at a cost of $36,357.78.
2.	Six. February 19, 1962 to September 1, 1962 (6J months).
3.	Twelve. August 1, 1961 to February 19, 1962 (64 months).


PENITENTIARIES
Mr. Matheson: What were the costs to the public during each of the years 1957 to 1961 inclusive, of maintaining one inmate in each of the following institutions: Dorchester, New Brunswick; St. Vincent de Paul, Quebec; Kingston, Ontario; Stony Mountain, Manitoba?
Answer	by: Mr. Bell (Saint	John-Alberl):	Kingston	St. Vincent dePaul	Dorchester	Manitoba1956-57	$1,664.82	$1,826.54	$2,043.06	$2,190.021957-58	
1,872.69	1,953.05	2,085.29	2,362.271958-59	
1,858.88	1,838.78	1,855.00	2,260.281959-60	
1,817.66	1,840.29	2,071.82	2,473.061960-61	
2,282.21	2,246.83	2,526.12	2,845.181961-62	
2,457.34	2,517.12	2,888.03	2,867.88
[Mr. Macnaughton.l


*GREY CUP TELEVISION COVERAGE
Mr. Fisher: 1.	What steps has the government taken (as distinct from any action by the board of broadcast governors and/or the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation) to ensure that Canadians served by television stations other than the C.T.V. organisation or its affiliates shall see (a) the Grey cup (b) Canadian professional football?
2.	What officer of the government, if any, has given advice to (a) the C.B.C. (b) the B.B.G., on interpretations of the powers of the B.B.G. with respect to its role in directing the coverage of the Grey cup?


Mr. Halpenny:: 1.	I am informed by the C.B.C. that discussions are continuing with C.T.V. and others with respect to the television coverage of (a) the Grey cup and (b) Canadian professional football.
The manner in which programs are selected by the C.B.C. is the sole responsibility of the corporation, and the government cannot and will not interfere.
2.	(a) I am informed by the C.B.C. that it has received an opinion on a B.B.G. regulatory proposal with respect to the Grey cup, from the Department of Justice.
(b) The board of broadcast governors has not been given advice by any officer of the government on interpretations of the powers of the B.B.G. with respect to its role in directing the coverage of the Grey cup.


* NAVAL CONSTRUCTION PROGRAM
Mr. Morris: 1.	Have any changes been made in the naval construction and procurement program announced by the Minister of National Defence in the House of Commons on April 11, 1962, and, if so, what are the changes?
2.	Have the Canadian shipyards which will build general purpose frigates been chosen and (a) if so, what are the yards, and in what order and (b) if not, has the lead yard been chosen and, if so, what is the lead yard?


Mr. Harkness:: The answer to the first question is no. However, due to a delay in
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the completion of detailed designed drawings, it is anticipated that the first of the eight general purpose frigates will not be laid down until 1964.
2. (a) No; (b) No.


EAST RIVER SHEET HARBOUR, N.S.-VESSELS LOADED
Mr. Morris: How many ocean-going vessels were loaded at the public wharf at East River Sheet Harbour, Nova Scotia, in 1955, 1956, 1957, 1958, 1959, 1960, 1961, and 1962 to date?
Answer by: Mr. Nesbitt:
Total number of ocean going vessels loaded at Sheet Harbour:
Number of ocean going
Year	vessels loaded
1955		 li
1956		 15
1957		 8
1958		 11
1959		 13
1960		 9
1961		 12
1962	(Jan.-July)	 14
Shipping tabulations cover total port activity. No further breakdown available.


PSYCHOLOGICAL THERAPY IN PENITENTIARIES
Mr. Matheson: 1.	Is psychological therapy, apart from testing, now being conducted in Canadian penitentiaries and, if so, in what institutions?
2.	How many psychology trained personnel equipped to conduct therapy were in the employ of our penitentiaries in 1959, 1960, 1961, and at the present date?
Answer by: Mr. Bell (Saint John-Alberl):
1. Yes, but limited by the trained staff available. In Kingston, St. Vincent de Paul, Dorchester, British Columbia, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Collin's Bay penitentiaries and in the Leclerc and Joyceville institutions and in the federal training centre.
2.	Psychiatrists	Psychologists	No. of Positions No. Employed	No. of	Positions	No. EmployedMar.	31/59 	
6	6	9	9Mar.	31/60 	
8	7	11	11Mar.	31/61 ....	
8	7	14	11Oct.	1/62 	
8	6	19	10HOUSING	LOANS TO INDIANS	$6,000 (f)	between	$6,000 and	$7,000 (g) between$7,000 and $8,000	(h) between $8,000 and $9,000
Question No. 32-Mr. Howard:	(*) between $9,000 and $10,000 (j) over $10,000?
How much of vote number 480 of the estimates of expenditure for the year ended March 31, 1962, by Indian agencies, has been loaned, and how many of these loans were (a) less than $1,000 (b) between $1,000 and $2,000 (c) between $2,000 and $3,000 (d) between $3,000 and $4,000 (e) between $5,000 and
Answer by: Mr. McGee:
The answer to the first part of this question is nil, and the remaining parts are therefore not applicable.

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It was the intention when vote 480 was established in 1961/62 to introduce a housing loan program on Indian reserves. The loans were to be secured by a conveyance of lands to the minister under section 18(2) of the Indian Act, this conveyance to be terminated upon satisfactory completion of the loan agreement.
It was later decided to defer the program until an appropriate section of the Indian Act could be introduced, designed specifically to meet the requirements of a comprehensive housing loan program on reserves. A primary consideration in the decision was the desire to provide Indians a full opportunity to examine, question and make suggestions respecting this amendment, which involves the major issue of land tenure, at the same time as other amendments are being considered.


R.C.A.F. STATION, ST. JEAN  BILINGUAL OFFICERS
Mr. Dupuis: 1.	Is the commanding officer of the R.C.A.F. station at St. Jean bilingual (English and French)?
2.	How many officers are attached to the said station?
3.	How many officers stationed at St. Jean are proficient in both languages?
Answer by: Mr. Sevigny:
1.	No.
2.	56.
3.	20.


ST. JEAN-IBERVILLE-NAPIERVILLE    POSTMASTERS AND MAIL CONTRACTS
Mr. Dupuis: 1.	Have the postmasters in the electoral district of St. Jean-Iberville-Napierville been changed since January 1, 1958; and, if so, (a) at what places, and (b) what are the names of the new postmasters?
2.	Since January 1962, have tenders been called for the conveyance of mail within the limits of the federal electoral district of St. Jean-Iberville-Napierville; and, if so, (a) at what places in each case, and (b) to whom were contracts awarded in each case?
Answer by: Mrs. Fairclough:
1.	Yes.
(a)	Napierville, St. Alexandre d'Iberville, St. Jacques le Mineur, St. Jean Sub. No. 2, St. Jean Sub. No. 3, St. Michel de Napierville, St. Sebastien, Sabrevois, Sherrington.
(b)	Mile Micheline Pepin, Mme Blanche Vigeant, Mme Cecile Bisaillon, M. Charles Lemieux, M. Maurice Thibodeau, Mme Flore Lemieux, Mme Antonine Paquette, Mme Florentine Tougas, M. Joseph Sylva Yvon Guerin.
2.	Yes.
(a) Henryville R.R. No. 2, Napierville R.R. No. 1, St. Edouard de Napierville R.R. No. 2, St. Remi RR. No. 1, Sabrevois R.R. No. 1.

(b) M. Raoul Dupuis, M. Raynald Lussier, M. Severin Lamarre, M. Georges A. Boyer, No decision yet-tenders being reviewed.


IMPORTS OF SEWING MACHINES
Mr. Dupuis: How many domestic sewing machines were imported to Canada during the year 1961; from what countries, and under what trade name?
Answer by: Mr. Nesbitt:
Domestic sewing machines imported to
Canada, 1961:
United Kingdom	35,320
France	 3,261
Germany, West	 2,709
Italy	 1,155
Netherlands	 4
Portugal	 425
Spain	 12
Sweden	 429
Switzerland	 6,017
Czechoslovakia	 1,585
India	 1,550
Japan	73,428
Brazil	 256
United States	30,584
Total	156,735
Trade names are not available.


FITNESS AND AMATEUR SPORT
Mr. Boulanger: 1.	What amounts has the national advisory council on fitness and amateur sport granted to sport and other associations since its establishment?
2.	What amount has each association received in each case?
Answer by: Mr. Monleith:
1. The national advisory council on fitness and amateur sport recommended to the Minister of National Health and Welfare that the following grants be made to the organizations listed:-
Amateur Athletic Union of Canada $43,927
(a)	Boxing committee .. $ 1,000
(b)	Fencing committee ...	500
(c)	Gymnastics committee 20,000
(d)	Track and field
athletics	 2,000
(e)	Weightlifting committee 2,250
(f)	Wrestling committee ..	1,500
(g)	National championships 16,677 Canadian Amateur Basketball
Association	 5,000
Canadian Amateur Ski Association 14,785 Canadian Amateur Speed Skating
Association	 8,500
Canadian Amateur Swimming Association	 4,450

Canadian Ass'n. of Amateur
Oarsmen	 10,000
Canadian Amateur Badminton Ass'n.	1,500
Canadian Canoe Association	 3,800
Canadian Civilian Ass'n of
Marksmen	 15,000
Canadian Field Hockey Ass'n		1,900
Canadian Ladies' Golf Union	 10,000
Canadian Lawn	Tennis	Association	18,000Canadian Table	Tennis	Association	750Canadian Volleyball Association ....	1,500Canadian Wheelmens' Association ..	5,000Canadian Wildlife Federation ....	20,000Royal Canadian Golf Ass'n	
5,000Rugby Tours Committee of Canada	10,000Canadian Ski Patrol	
9,000Canadian Youth	Hostels	Ass'n...	10,000Royal Canadian	Legion	
50,000Young Men's Christian Ass'n	6,428Young Women's Christian Ass'n ...	21,810Total	
$276,350
2. In every case the organizations listed in
1.	received grants in the amounts recommended by the national advisory council on fitness and amateur sport. In addition to these grants recommended by the council the government made the following grants to associations: a grant of $30,000 was made to the British Empire and Commonwealth Games Association of Canada to assist Canadian participation at the games to be held in Perth, Australia; a grant of $10,000 was made to the Canadian Olympic Association to permit the association to conduct a survey designed to assist in deciding on the most suitable site for the 1968 winter Olympics; a grant of $35,000 was made to the Calgary Olympic development association, the local organization making the bid for the 1968 winter Olympic games to be held in Banff, the site selected by the Canadian Olympic Association.


LOAN OF $250 MILLION IN U.S. FUNDS
Mr. Gordon: 1.	Did the Canadian government obtain a loan of approximately $250,000,000 in U.S. funds in September, 1962?
2.	If so, what were the terms and conditions of this loan?
3.	When this loan was being negotiated, was any promise, commitment or understanding given that the 15 per cent withholding tax on interest payable to non-residents would be rescinded or amended?
4.	Is it a fact that the negotiations for this loan were begun in late July or early August, and then deferred until September?
5.	If so, what was the reason for such deferment?
6.	What commissions were paid to brokers or other intermediaries in connection with this loan?
Questions Answer by: Mr. Graffley:
1.	On September 13, 1962, negotiations were completed for a government of Canada bond issue in the United States in the amount of U.S. $250 million.
2.	The terms and conditions of this loan are contained in the purchase agreement, copies of which are herewith tabled.
3.	No.
4.	No.
5.	Answered above.
6.	$1.50 per $1,000.


LOANS AND CREDITS OF $1,050 MILLION
Mr. Gordon: 1.	Did any of the officials of the government and/or of the Bank of Canada conduct the negotiations leading to the loans and standby credits of $1,050,000,000 obtained in June of this year from the international monetary fund and other foreign banks and institutions?
2.	If so, who were these officials?
3.	On what date were these negotiations begun?
4.	What were the terms and conditions of these loans and standby credits?
5.	Did the international monetary fund or other foreign banks and institutions insist upon the introduction of the austerity program announced by the Prime Minister on June 24 or upon any of the measures contained in such program?
6.	If so, will the monetary policy of Canada be controlled directly or indirectly by the international monetary fund and other foreign banks and institutions until these loans and standby credits are extinguished?
7.	Were the international monetary fund and other foreign banks and institutions informed in advance of the intention to raise the bank rate to 6 per cent (on June 25)?
Answer by: Mr. Graffley:
1 and 2. The negotiations leading to the drawing of $300 million from the international monetary fund and the standby credit of $400 million from the export-import bank were conducted under instructions from the Minister of Finance by the executive director representing Canada on the
I.M.F. and senior officials of the Department of Finance. The negotiations leading to the reciprocal currency arrangement between the Bank of Canada and the federal reserve system, and to the similar arrangement between the Bank of Canada and the Bank of England, were conducted by the Bank of Canada.
3.	June 20, 1962.
4.	I.M.F. The terms and conditions of the Canadian drawing on the I.M.F. are those applicable to such drawings from the fund. They are set forth in a letter from the Bank of Canada, as fiscal agency for the government, dated June 22, 1962, and related material, copies of which are attached.
Export-import bank. The terms and conditions of the line of credit from the export-import bank are set forth in a formal agreement dated September 12, a copy of which is attached.

Questions
Bank of Canada arrangements. On June 26 the Bank of Canada and the federal reserve bank of New York entered into a reciprocal currency arrangement under which the federal reserve bank of New York paid $250 million U.S. to the account of the Bank of Canada against a payment of approximately $272 million Canadian by the Bank of Canada to the account of the federal reserve bank of New York. Under this arrangement forward cover was provided to both parties. This arrangement was comparable to ones recently made by the federal reserve system with a number of European central banks.
The currency arrangement made between the Bank of Canada and the Bank of England on the same date was for an amount equal to $100 million U.S.
The foregoing arrangements entered into by the Bank of Canada with the other central banks were for an initial period of three months. These arrangements were renewed on September 26.
5.	No.
6.	Answered by 5.
7.	When, on June 24, the international monetary fund approved the Canadian drawing of $300 million it was informed of the announcement regarding bank rate that was made that day by the Bank of Canada.
Excerpt from a decision of the executive board of the international monetary fund made at meeting 52/11 on February 13, 1952.
2.	a. In view of the executive board's interpretation of September 26, 1946, concerning the use of the fund's resources, and considering especially the necessity for ensuring the revolving character of the fund's resources, exchange purchased from the fund should not remain outstanding beyond the period reasonably related to the payments problem for which it was purchased from the fund. The period should fall within an outside range of three to five years. Members will be expected not to request the purchase of exchange from the fund in circumstances where the reduction of the fund's holdings of their currencies by an equivalent amount within that time cannot reasonably be envisaged.
b.	The fund has recently determined that when the charges on the fund's holdings of a member's currency in any bracket have reached a rate of 3j per cent per annum, the fund and the member, in accordance with article V, section 8(d) "shall consider means by which the fund's holdings of the currency can be reduced" (EB meeting 717, 11/19/51). In the course of consultations arising from purchases of exchange taking place after December 1, 1951, the fund and the member will agree upon appropriate arrangements to ensure the reduction of the fund's holdings of the member's currency as soon as possible, with the maximum period to be permitted in any such agreed arrangement requiring that within five years of each purchase made by the member there will be an equivalent repurchase of the fund's holdings unless they have otherwise been reduced.
c.	With respect to each future purchase which raises the fund's holdings of the member's currency

from not less than 75 per cent to not more than 100 per cent of its quota, a member whose currency held by the fund has not been otherwise reduced within three years will be requested by the fund to agree upon an arrangement providing that within five years of each purchase made by the member there will be an equivalent repurchase of the fund's holdings unless they have otherwise been reduced.
d.	When unforeseen circumstances beyond the member's control would make unreasonable the application of the principles set forth in paragraph 2 above, the fund will consider extensions of time.


DOCUMENT OF INTERNATIONAL MONETARY FUND AND NOT FOR PUBLIC USE
[Stage Direction]
For Agenda EBS/62/72 Confidential
June 22, 1962
To: Members of the executive board From: The secretary
Subject: Canada-use of the fund's resources
There is attached an advance copy of the text of a letter which the Canadian authorities are expected to deliver to the fund before the meeting which has been scheduled for Sunday, June 24, at 11:00 a.m.
Mr. Per Jacobsson Managing Director International Monetary Fund 19th and H streets, N.W.
Washington 25, D.C.
Dear Mr. Jacobsson:
As fiscal agency for the government of Canada, we desire to purchase from the international monetary fund the equivalents of U.S. $100 million in pounds sterling, U.S. $80 million in deutsche mark,
U.	S. $80 million in new French francs, U.S. $20 million in Belgian francs, and U.S. $20 million in Netherlands guilders, in accordance with the terms of article V, sections 3 and 4 of the fund agreement. Please credit these amounts to the account of Bank of Canada, Ottawa, maintained with Bank of England, London, Deutsche Bundesbank, Frankfurt, Banque de France. Paris, Banque Nationale de Belgique, Brussels, and De Nederlandsche Bank N.V., Amsterdam, respectively.
We do hereby represent that this currency is presently needed for making in said currency payments which are consistent with provisions of the fund agreement.
The equivalent of the amount of desired currency in Canadian dollars, namely, Can. $324,324,000, will be placed to the credit of your number 1 account with Bank of Canada, Ottawa on the value date to be specified by you.
With regard to the charges payable under article
V.	section 8(a) of the fund agreement, we have instructed federal reserve bank of New York, New York, to earmark for your gold account approximately but not less than 42,857.143 fine ounces of gold.
We further state that this request is made in accordance with the arrangements described in paragraph 2 of the decision of the executive board of the fund at meeting 52/11, February 13, 1952, and that we will comply with the principles set forth in subparagraphs a, b, c and d of paragraph 2 of that decision.
Sincerely yours,
L. Rasminsky, Governor Bank of Canada

INTERNATIONAL MONETARY FUND Executive board Decision No. 1356-(62/28)
Subject: CANADA-USE OF THE FUND'S RESOURCES
1.	The government of Canada has submitted a request for the purchase of the equivalent of U.S. $100 million in sterling, $80 million in deutsche mark, $80 million in French francs, $20 million in Netherlands guilders, and $20 million in Belgian francs.
2.	The fund agrees to the requested purchase and grants the necessary waiver under article V, section 4, of the articles of Agreement on the repurchase terms set forth in the request.
The foregoing is the text of a decision of the executive board taken at meeting 62/28, June 24, 1962.
Roman L. Home, Secretary
Agreement between government of Canada and Export-Import Bank of Washington

[Stage Direction]
This agreement made and entered into as of the 12th day of September, 1962 by and between the government of Canada (hereinafter referred to as "Canada") and export-import bank of Washington (hereinafter called "Eximbank"), an agency of the United States of America:
Witnesseth:
Whereas, Canada has applied to Eximbank for a line of credit to assist Canada in maintaining the flow of United States imports: and
Whereas, the granting of such credit will facilitate exports and imports and the exchange of commodities between the United States and Canada:
Now, therefore, the parties hereto agree as follows:
ARTICLE I Line of Credit
Eximbank hereby establishes in favour of Canada a line of credit of four hundred million dollars ($400,000,000) against which Eximbank, acting independently or through the agency of one or more United States commercial banks, will make disbursements, subject to the terms and conditions hereinafter stated, to assist Canada in maintaining the flow of United States imports; it being expressly understood that Canada shall be under no obligation to borrow any specified amount under the line of credit and that disbursements under the line of credit as hereinafter provided shall constitute the borrowings by Canada thereunder,

[Stage Direction]
Availability of the Credit
Two hundred fifty million dollars ($250,000,000) of the line of credit shall be available for disbursement during the period from June 24, 1962 to September 24, 1962 inclusive. One hundred fifty million dollars ($150,000,000) of the line of credit shall be available for disbursement over the period from June 24, 1962 to June 24, 1963 inclusive.

[Stage Direction]
Terms of Repayment and Promissory Notes
Each disbursement under the line of credit shall be evidenced by the negotiable general obligation of Canada in the form of a promissory note. Each such note shall be printed in the English language and shall be substantially in the form of Exhibit A attached hereto and made a part hereof. Each note shall be dated as of the date of issuance.
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shall be payable to the order of Eximbank at such place as Eximbank shall designate and shall be payable both as to principal and interest in lawful money of the United States of America.
The principal amount of each note shall be payable one (1) year from the date thereof. Each note shall bear interest at the rate of four per cent (4%) per annum on outstanding balances, payable semiannually. Interest shall be computed on the basis of actual number of days using a 365-day factor.
Canada shall have the right to prepay, without premium or penalty, at any time or times, all or any part of the principal of a note issued pursuant hereto. Any such prepayment shall be accompanied by interest on the amount of the prepayment accrued to the date of such prepayment.

[Stage Direction]
Disbursements Under the Credit
Subject to the provisions of article VI and IX, disbursements under the line of credit will be made from time to time upon the written request of Canada accompanied by the following:
A.	A promissory note of Canada conforming to the provisions of article III hereof;
B.	Such additional documents and information pertinent to the line of credit as Eximbank may reasonably request.
ARTICLE V Commitment Fee
Canada shall pay to Eximbank a commitment fee computed at the rate of one quarter of one per cent (I of 1%) per annum from June 24, 1962 on the amount of the line of credit as from time to time shall be undisbursed and uncancelled or unexpired. Such commitment fee shall be payable in United States dollars quarterly in advance, the first payment of which shall be due upon execution of this agreement. It is understood and agreed that Canada shall have the right at any time to request cancellation of all or any part of the undisbursed amount of the credit and thereby terminate the commitment fee with respect to any portion of the credit so cancelled and receive a proportionate rebate of the fee theretofor paid.
ARTICLE VI Use of Other Assistance
As a condition precedent to the first disbursement hereunder, Canada shall certify to Eximbank that it has fully utilized the assistance being made available at this time by the international monetary fund and the United States federal reserve banks in connection with Canada's stabilization program.
ARTICLE VII Tax Exemption of Notes
Canada hereby expressly agrees that the promissory notes issued to evidence disbursements under the line of credit, as well as the proceeds and the income of such notes, shall be exempt from taxation or any other charges for any purposes under its laws or any of its political or taxing authorities as long as such notes are held by Eximbank, the government of a sovereign state or a central bank.
ARTICLE VIII Information to be Furnished
A.	Within a reasonable time after each disbursement made under the line of credit, Canada will submit an itemized statement of expenditures, at least equal to the amount of the immediately preceding disbursement, for imports from the United States purchased after June 24. 1962. The itemized
[Stage Direction]
Questions
statement provided for herein shall indicate the general category of the imports; it being understood that, at any time upon the request of Eximbank, Canada shall furnish such additional identifying data with respect to the imports as Eximbank may request.
B.	As long as any of the notes issued under the line of credit shall be outstanding, Canada, at any time and from time to time at the request of Eximbank but not more often than once in any six (6) months' period, will provide Eximbank with such information in relation to Canada's present and prospective balance of payments position and such related aspects of the economy of Canada as Eximbank may reasonably request; it being understood that all such information, if not of public record in Canada, shall be provided in confidence and for the information of Eximbank only.

[Stage Direction]
Legal Opinions and Authorizations
As a condition precedent to the first disbursement under the line of credit, Eximbank shall be furnished the following:
A.	An opinion of the Minister of Justice of Canada, or his deputy, accompanied by necessary documentation, demonstrating to the satisfaction of the general counsel of Eximbank or counsel designated by him, that this agreement as signed on behalf of Canada is legally binding upon Canada in accordance with its terms and that the promissory notes, when and as issued to evidence disbursements under the line of credit, will constitute the valid and binding obligations of Canada in accordance with their terms.
B.	Evidence of the authority of the person or persons who will sign this agreement on behalf of Canada, who will sign the promissory notes and who will act as the representative or representatives of Canada in connection with the operation of the line of credit, together with the authenticated specimen signature, in duplicate, of each such person.
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, the parties hereto have caused this Agreement to be duly executed in duplicate as of the date first mentioned above.

[Stage Direction]
By George Nowlan Minister of Finance
EXPORT-IMPORT BANK OF WASHINGTON By Harold F. Linder, President and Chairman
Attest:
K. W. Taylor
Deputy Minister of Finance Edward S. Conger Acting Secretary

[Stage Direction]
GOVERNMENT OF CANADA Promissory Note

[Stage Direction]
(Date)
[Stage Direction]
The government of Canada acknowledges its indebtedness and for value received hereby promises to pay to the order of Export-Import Bank of Washington on or before 

 the
principal sum of 

*- 
[Stage Direction]
dollars (U.S. $

) and to pay interest from
the date hereof on the

days of
[Stage Direction]
an(j 

 of each year at the rate of four
per cent (4%) per annum on the unpaid principal balance of this note from time to time outstanding. 
Both the principal of and interest on this note are payable in lawful money of the United States of America at 

. Each such payment shall be made without deduction for, or on account of, any present or future taxes, duties or other charges imposed or levied against this note, the proceeds, income or holder hereof by or within Canada or any political or taxing authority thereof as long as this note is held by Export-Import Bank of Washington, the government of a sovereign state or a central bank.
Upon default in the prompt and full payment of principal of or interest on this or any other note issued and outstanding pursuant to that certain
agreement dated as of 

, 1962, between
the government of Canada and Export-Import Bank of Washington, the entire unpaid principle of this note and interest thereon to the date of payment shall immediately become due and be payable at the option and upon demand of the holder hereof. The non-exercise by the holder hereof of any of its rights hereunder in any particular instance shall not constitute a waiver thereof in that or any subsequent instance.

[Stage Direction]
By 
[Stage Direction]
By

Mr. Benidickson: 1.	What is the estimated amount of capital funds involved in the decision to defer establishment of television stations at Fort Frances, Atikokan, and Red Lake as outlined in a press release of the C.B.C. on May 18, 1962?
2.	Is the said deferment decision attributable to the austerity program of the government announced shortly after June 18th last?
Answer by: Mr. Halpenny:
1.	The total estimated capital funds involved is approximately $600,000.
2.	Yes.


WRINKLE REMOVING PREPARATION
Mr. Fisher: 1.	Have officials or scientists of the federal government examined a preparation presently merchandised in Canada called 2nd Debut and claiming that "Mother may now lift her face out of lines and wrinkles at home" through an ingredient called CEF 600, discovered at Wiesbaden, Germany?
2.	If so. have they any indications that this discovery is either harmful or able to do what it claims?
3.	If government scientists have a chemical analysis of this discovery, what are the ingredients?
Answer by: Mr. Monieiih:
1.	The cosmetic preparation 2nd Debut has been examined by officials of the food and drug directorate of the Department of National Health and Welfare and no objection has been taken to the claim "Mother may lift her face out of lines and wrinkles" since this statement is considered as a form of puffery often associated with the advertising of cosmetics.
2.	Data and information on the safety of use have been filed with the food and drug

directorate of the department and no evidence is available that it is harmful when used according to directions. Evidence has been submitted to show that the preparation is effective in restoring moisture to the skin and in this respect it may be capable of doing what it claims.
3.	It is not a requirement of the regulations under the Food and Drugs Act that a manufacturer declare a list of ingredients on the label of a cosmetic. However, the ingredients have been revealed to the food and drug directorate by the manufacturers in confidence.


RENOVATION OF TRENT CANAL
Mr. Fisher: 1.	Has the government announced in the past two years that it planned to renovate the Trent canal?
2.	If so, when, and briefly, what was the announced scope of the renovations and any alterations in locks?
3.	Was there any money in the estimates for 1962-63, and 1963-64 for such purposes? If so, how much?
4.	What effect has the so-called "austerity program" had on Trent canal program?
5.	Has the government satisfied itself that the planned renovations cannot lead to the introduction of the lamprey eel menace into the interior waters of central Ontario?
Answer by: Mr. Marlineau:
1.	Yes, on January 3, 1962.
2.	The program was to cover a 10 year period and involve new locks and modernization of the Trent system. Major items are the construction of new locks to replace the marine railways at Swift Rapids and Big Chute, replacement of the locks at Fenelon Falls by a single lock now under construction, and major lock reconstruction at Peterborough, Burleigh Falls, Lovesick, Buckhorn and Kirkfield.
3.	Yes, for 1962-63; the amount can be made available when the revised estimates are tabled. No figures are available at this time for the 1963-64 estimates.
4.	The rate of progress projected for the first year or two of this program may be slightly below that originally intended as a result of design and planning delays not uncommon in the early phase of a major program such as this.
5.	The Department of Fisheries advises that it cannot be categorically stated that substitution of locks for marine railways at the lake Huron end of the Trent valley canal will not permit lamprey eels freer access to the interior lakes. There is reasonable assurance, however, that chances of this circumstance occurring are almost negligible.
Questions


NORTHWESTERN ONTARIO COMMISSION EMPLOYMENT RECOMMENDATIONS
Mr. Fisher: 1.	Did the Minister of Labour receive a report from the northwestern Ontario commission on employment?
2.	If so, when?
3.	Since receiving such a report what response or encouragement has the minister given to the commission or any other persons at the lakehead with regard to the recommendations of the committee?
Answer by: Mr. Hales:
1.	Two copies of the report of the northwestern Ontario commission on employment were received by the Department of Labour and the report was brought to the attention of the Minister of Labour.
2.	Copies of the report were received on January 26, 1962.
3.	Only a few of the recommendations of the northwestern Ontario commission on employment fall within the jurisdiction of the federal government and these have either been implemented already or can be implemented provided the lakehead communities concerned avail themselves of the provisions of existing federal programs and legislation, such as the municipal winter works incentive program, the Agricultural Rehabilitation and Development Act, the Technical and Vocational Training Assistance Act of 1960 and the statistical and research resources of a variety of federal agencies.
The commission recommended the establishment of a regional advisory council to continue to be responsible for the implementation of the commission's recommendations. When this council is established, the Minister of Labour and other federal agencies will be glad to provide all possible assistance to it.



LAKEHEAD AIRPORT


Mr. Fisher: In brief form, what effect will the austerity program have upon any developments or operations at the lakehead airport in the next 18 months?
Answer by: Mr. McBain:
The proposed development and operation of the lakehead airport is expected to proceed as planned.



SHIPBUILDING UNDER SUBSIDY PROGRAM

Mr. Fisher: 1.	How many vessels, to what total value of construction, have been approved by or are presently awaiting approval by the Canadian Maritime Commission, under the recent subsidy program?
2.	How many of such vessels, to what total value, are being built or have been recommended for building, by any subsidiary of Canada Steamship Lines?

Questions
3.	What vessels, if any, to what value, have been assigned by Canada Steamship Lines or any of its subsidiaries to Port Arthur Shipbuilding Company, under this subsidy program?
Answer by: Mr. McBain:
1.	165 projects totalling approximately
$115,000,000.	'
2.	16 vessels, approximate value $33,000,000.
3.	None. Two contracts from Canada Steamship Lines have been placed, one with Davie Shipbuilding Limited and one with Colling-wood Shipyards, for large upper lakers which could not be built at Port Arthur. Contracts for 14 other vessels were secured directly from the owners by the yards themselves.



JACQUES CARTIER BRIDGE


Mr. Fisher: 1.	Did the government have its officials make an assessment, before it abolished tolls on the Jacques Cartier bridge, of the length of time it would have taken to pay off the debt on this bridge, given the higher level of income found after the disclosures of 1959 and 1960?
2.	If so, what was the length of time?
3.	Did the government make an estimate of the losses it sustained since the bridge's opening through failure to collect all the tolls?
4.	If so, what was the estimate?
5.	Has the government given any consideration, under the austerity program, to reintroducing tolls on the Jacques Cartier in order to pay off the debt of the bridge?
6.	What steps has the government taken to recover the debts owed to it by the city of Montreal and the Quebec government re the Jacques Cartier bridge?
7.	How is the debt of the Jacques Cartier bridge being met or retired at the present time?
Answer by: Mr. McBain:
The national harbours board advises:
1.	No. An assessment of the period required to liquidate the bridge debt through tolls would depend upon unknown future traffic patterns pertaining to all Montreal harbour bridges.
2.	Answered by No. 1.
3.	No.
4.	Answered by No. 3.
5.	No.
6.	The city of Montreal paid its share of the deficit debt in 1953 and arrangements are being concluded with the province of Quebec for the liquidation of the share of the deficit debt owed by the province.
7.	Pending the conclusion of arrangements with the province of Quebec the debt of the Jacques Cartier bridge is not being met or retired at the present time.



C.N.R. LINE, MATANE-STE. ANNE DES MONTS

Mr. Fisher: 1.	Was the government or the C.N.R. to put up the funds for the Gaspe railway line between Matane and Ste. Anne des Monts?
2.	In either case, what effect has the austerity program upon this railway's construction schedule?
(Mr. Fisher.]
Answer by: Mr. McBain:
1.	The funds for construction of the railway line were to be provided by the government.
2.	Decision regarding the commencement of construction is dependent upon the completion of a detailed survey by the C.N.R. This survey was initiated some months ago but the report thereon has not yet been received. It is understood from the C.N.R., however, that it should come in before the beginning of the next construction season.



FORT HOPE, ONT. INDIANS-COMPLAINTS RE TREATMENT

Mr. Fisher: 1.	Has the Indian affairs branch received any compaints in 1962 from the Indians at Fort Hope (in northern Ontario) regarding their treatment by the branch or its agents?
2.	If so, what were the complaints, whom do they come from, and what steps were taken to examine them and deal with them?
Answer by: Mr. McGee:
1.	No official complaints have been received by the Indian affairs branch. However, an officer of the branch who attended the meeting of the union of Ontario Indians held at West Bay on August 1, 2 and 3, 1962, reported that Chief Waswa of the Fort Hope band presented to the meeting a petition for the removal of local Indian superintendent signed by a number of band members.
2.	Chief Waswa was informed by the Indian affairs branch representative to submit either the petition or a copy of the minutes of the meeting so that the matter could be investigated. To date, nothing has been received from either the Fort Hope Indians or the union of Ontario Indians.



BUILDING PROGRAM, FORT WILLIAM-PORT ARTHUR

Mr. Fisher: 1.	What is the situation of the building program of the federal government in either Fort William or Port Arthur, in consequence of the austerity program?
2.	What part of this program will be carried out at Port Arthur?
Answer by: Mr. McCleave:
This information will be available when the revised estimates for 1962-63 are tabled in the house.



SAN JUAN BAY, B.C., BREAKWATER

Mr. Priiiie: 1.	Since April 1,	1962. has any action been
taken to establish a breakwater in San Juan bay on Vancouver island and, if so, what are the details in respect to such action?
2.	What is the cost of the project and when is it expected that construction will start?

Answer by: Mr. McCleave:
1.	Consideration has been given to carrying out a model study but this has been held in abeyance for the present in view of the reaction of companies approached which in general has been that they are unable to undertake such a study due to lack of facilities for model study in Vancouver.
2.	While it is not possible to give an accurate estimate without further study, the cost of the project would probably be in the $3 million to $7 million range.
reduction in train service, port arthur-



WINNIPEG

Mr. Benidickson: 1.	From what municipalities, labour organizations and chambers of commerce has the Minister of Transport received representations protesting the reduction by 50 per cent in C.N.R. passenger trains 33 and 34 running between Port Arthur and Winnipeg?
2.	What action has the minister taken with respect to such protests?


Mr. McBain:: 1.	Town council of Rainy River, local 339, international brotherhood of electrical workers, Port Arthur, local 32 Canadian brotherhood of railway transport and general workers, Fort William.
2.	The representations were referred to the board of transport commissioners, who have the matter under investigation.



NATIONAL DEFENCE HEADQUARTERS TELEPHONES

Mr. Hellyer: 1.	Was a directive circulated at national defence headquarters to the effect that new telephones must be authorized by treasury board?
2.	If so, why?
3.	What was the date of the directive?


Douglas Scott Harkness: 1. No.
Therefore 2 and 3 are not applicable.



INVITATION TO EXTERNAL AFFAIRS


Mr. Malheson: 1.	Has the Secretary of State for External Affairs received an invitation, or invitations, from the North American Air Defence Command or from the State Department of the United States of America to visit the headquarters of NORAD and thereby acquaint himself directly with the provisions prevailing for the joint Canada-U.S.A. defence?
2.	If so, on what date or dates have invitations been received?
3.	Has this invitation been accepted and, if not, does the Secretary of State for External Affairs intend to take advantage of this invitation?
Answer by: Mr. Green:
1.	No.
2.	Answered by 1.
3.	Answered by 1.
Questions


LOAN OF $1 BILLION  REQUIREMENTS
Mr. Lewis: 1.	Did the international monetary fund, the export-import bank, the federal reserve bank and the Bank of England require that the government of Canada pursue particular monetary and budgetary policies at the time these institutions agreed to guarantee or lend to Canada $1,000,000,000 to support or replenish Canada's exchange reserves?
2.	If so, what policies did they require the government of Canada to pursue and, particularly, were higher interest rates, a cut-back in government expenditures and a balanced budget, or any one of these, among such required policies?


Mr. Graffiey:: 1.	No.
2.	Answered by 1.


BEAUCEVILLE, QUE. POST OFFICE
Mr. Dupuis: 1.	Are plans and specifications of the Beauceville post office ready?
2.	If so, when is the construction schedule to begin?
Answer by: Mr. McCleave:
1.	Yes.
2.	Commencement of construction will depend on approval of funds by parliament.


COMPLAINTS RESPECTING CENSUS RESULTS
Mr. Howard: 1.	Since the completion of the decennial census for 1961, has any municipality or province raised any objection or complaint to the effect that the census for the municipality or province was incomplete, incorrect, or insufficient; and, if so, what are the details of each such complaint?
2.	As a result of these complaints, what action was taken in each case; and if such action, in part, was to arrange for additions to the original population figures, what differences resulted in each case?
3.	Was each such subsequent action, as referred to in part 2 hereof, satisfactory to the complaining party?
4.	As a result of any such subsequent action or from experiences derived from the taking of the census, is any action planned to ensure that a more accurate population count of municipalities will be made in future census-taking?
Answer by: Mr. Nesbitt:
1.	Since the final population counts resulting from the 1961 census of Canada were completed and released no complaints have been received by the dominion bureau of statistics.
2.	See 1 above.
3.	See 1 above.
4.	See 1 above.


CHINESE RESIDENTS VOLUNTEERING INFORMATION
Mr. Howard: 1.	Since June 9, 1960, has any person of Chinese origin volunteered any information regarding himself and his method of entry to Canada, or the method of entry of any of his relatives, where such entry might have been made in such a way as to have it classed as illegal entry, and, if so, how many such people?

Questions
2.	How many of the people referred to in part 1 were advised that "it is not the intention in connection with the current investigation to prosecute or deport from the country any Chinese presently in Canada, who have not themselves engaged in assisting other Chinese apart from their own relatives, to enter Canada illegally''?
3.	Have any of the people referred to in part 1 been deported, and, if so, how many?
Answer by: Mr. Bell (Carleton):
1.	Since June 9, 1960, and until August 31, 1962, 1,314 persons of Chinese origin have admitted to immigration officers and officers of the R.C.M.P. irregularities connected with their own admission to Canada or with the admission of other persons in whom they were interested. 910 of these have made formal voluntary statements regarding themselves and their method of entry to Canada, or the method of entry of relatives, where such entry might be classed as illegal entry. The majority of such voluntary statements were given following disclosure to the persons concerned that the irregularities connected with their entry or that of their relatives were already known to the immigration authorities.
2.	All of the individuals offering to give voluntary statements have been so advised. It is ensured that all persons volunteering statements as described in 1 are familiar with the statement made by the former minister of citizenship and immigration in the House of Commons on June 9, 1960. Where such persons disclaim knowledge of the minister's statement it is read to them and explained, if necessary, by an interpreter before the voluntary statement is accepted.
3.	No person has been deported following the making of a voluntary statement under the conditions set out in 1 and 2. One individual, who had deliberately entered into a bigamous marriage for the purpose of effecting entry to Canada, was ordered deported and, following the issue of the deportation order, purported to make a voluntary statement to the police, concerning the facts of his illegal entry to Canada. This person had, during the special inquiry held to determine his right to remain in Canada, denied under oath the facts brought forward in evidence concerning the means employed to effect his illegal entry. He did not reveal to the police, at the time he offered to make a voluntary statement, that he had already been ordered deported.


* ORDERS IN COUNCIL IMPOSING EXCHANGE RESTRICTIONS
Mr. Mcllraiih: 1.	How many orders in council were passed in 1947 imposing exchange restrictions?
2,	Under what statutory authority were such orders in council passed?


John George Diefenbaker: 1. Eleven.

2. They purported to be under the Foreign Exchange Control Act.


C.N.R. FREIGHT SERVICE, MONCTON-BUCTOUCHE, N.B.  PROTESTS
Mr. Crossman: Has the Minister of Transport received any representations protesting the discontinuance of
C.N.R. rail freight service on the Moncton-Buc-touche subdivision, and, if so, what action has been taken?
Answer by: Mr. McBain:
No, but the board of transport commissioners has an application from the Canadian National Railways for authority to abandon that portion of the Buctouche subdivision from Buctouche Junction, mileage 0.25, to Buctouche, mileage 29.95, a distance of 29.70 miles. This application is at present under investigation by the board and municipal authorities have been advised, and every opportunity will be given to interested parties to present their views.


CANADIAN PARTICIPATION IN NATO EXERCISE &quot;FALLTRAP&quot;
Mr. Maiheson: Did components of the Canadian armed forces participate in the recent NATO exercise in northern Greece "Exercise Falltrap" and, if so, what units participated?
Answer by: Mr. Harkness:
No.



MONEY SUPPLY AND EXCHANGE RESERVES

[Stage Direction]
Question No. 67
["The reply to this question is as follows. The board of transport commissioners advise that the Canadian Pacific Railway Company provided an overnight passenger service between Montreal and Quebec up to May 15, 1961, at which time this service was discontinued. This reduction in passenger train service was investigated by the board and their review of the background leading up to this change indicated that, because of a substantial decline in patronage, the company found it necessary to discontinue the service. It was evident that the patronage of these trains had diminished since the year 1955 by some 45 per cent, and that in consequence of this reduction in passenger traffic the trains were being operated at a substantial loss.\nUnder the circumstances the board found that the financial improvement for the company in discontinuing the trains outweighed any incidental inconvenience to the travelling public between these points and no action was taken to interfere with the company's proposal. In this connection the board took into consideration the remaining service provided between these two important centres.\nThe board states that there has been no public demand for a restoration of this service since the trains were discontinued in May 1961, and no action is being taken by the board to have this service restored effective with the fall change of timetable."]
Mr. Matheson:: 1.	What was the increase in Canadian money supply between March 28, 1962, and June 13, 1962?
2.	What was the loss of Canadian exchange reserves during this period?
3.	What was the decrease in Canadian money supply between June 13, 1962, and August 22, 1962?
4.	What was the increase in foreign exchange reserve funds during this period?
Answer by: Mr. Grafftey:
1.	Total	currency	and	chartered	bank
deposits on March 28, 1962, were at $15,046 million. On June 13, 1962, they were $15,571 million. The increase during that period was $525 million.
2.	At the end of March 1962, official reserves were at U.S. $1,709.4 million. On June 22 they were in the vicinity of $1,100 million. The decrease during that period was approximately U.S. $600 million.
3.	Total	currency	and	chartered	bank
deposits on June 13, 1962, were $15,571 million. On August 22, 1962, they were $14,995 million. The decrease during this period was U.S. $576 million.
4.	On June 22, 1962, official reserves were in the vicinity of U.S. $1,100 million. At the

*end of August they were at U.S. $2,330.6 million. The increase during that period was approximately U.S. $1,200 million.



Mr. MacEachen: Is it the intention of the Department of Public Works to proceed in 1962 with harbour improvements at Inverness, Nova Scotia?


Mr. McCleave:: This information will be available when the revised estimates are tabled in the house.


* TRURO-SYDNEY, N.S., RAILWAY MAIL SERVICE
Mr. MacEachen: 1.	Has a decision been taken by the Post Office Department that mails will no longer be carried on trains 604 and 603 between Truro and Sydney? What is the reason for this change?
2.	Has any investigation been made to determine the effect of this change on (a) the railway clerks, and (b) the convenience of the public?
3.	If so, what are the results of such investigation?


Mrs. Fairclough:: 1.	Yes. The Canadian National Railways have advised that trains 603-604 will operate on schedule which will preclude the possibility of meeting the requirements of the Post Office Department.
2.	Yes. (a) The nine railway mail clerks affected will be assigned to duty in post offices at their present salary, (b) Arrangements are now being made for the establishment of highway services which will provide the public with equivalent service.
3.	Answered by 2.
^FEDERAL APPROVAL OF LIFE JACKETS


Mr. Haidasz: 1.	Has the Department of Transport received any report of the ruling of a coroner's jury, held in Toronto last summer and presided over by coroner Dr. Morton Shulman, that the federal Department of Transport approves life jackets which are not safe?
2.	What steps has the minister taken to remove from the market unsafe life jackets formerly approved by the department?
3.	What action has the department taken to design a life jacket completely safe for all phases of boating activities?


James Alexander McBain: The answers to parts 1, 2 and 3 are as follows: The report referred to has been received but it does not state that the Department of Transport approves life jackets which are not safe although it comments on buoyancy requirements; nor is it the case that there are on the market unsafe life jackets formerly approved by the department.
The primary purpose of a life jacket is to provide buoyancy for the human body and to support the wearer in a safe position when conscious and completely relaxed. It will not automatically turn the wearer on to his back
Questions
in the water or prevent the head of an unconscious person from falling forward and being subject to the action of waves continually splashing on the face, which may result in drowning.
Specifications for Department of Transport life jackets are developed by a committee of the Canadian government specification board. This committee comprises representation from the national research council, the Canadian Red Cross, yachting associations, Y.M.C.A., Boy Scouts Association, harbour police, provincial police, the boating industry, life jacket manufacturers and many others. Life jackets, before receiving approval, undergo exhaustive tests to ensure that they will perform in accordance with specification requirements.
This committee has constantly sought to improve the standards and specifications which are applied but has at no time adopted a standard or specification which is unsafe.


CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION
Mr. Caouelte: 1.	What were the revenues of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation in 1961-62?
2.	What has been the cost to the country of the C.B.C. for 1961-62?
3.	What is being done by the corporation to remove the socialists and the like-minded persons from the control of the government-owned radio and television service?
4. Who is responsible for the control of the government-owned network?
5. Who is the chairman or governor of the C.B.C.? What is his annual salary?


Mr. Speaker:: In regard to this question, on October 4 the hon. member for Port Arthur raised a point as to whether it was properly worded. We need not go into what was said on that date, except to say that the conclusion was reached that I would reserve opinion as to the validity of the assertion of the hon. member for Port Arthur, and what might be done to remove a question, which might be found offensive or improper, from the order paper, because at that time I did not feel it was within the power of the Speaker to order that a question either remain on the order paper or be removed from it.
It would appear that the hon. member for Port Arthur raised his question of order on two points, first that part 3 of the question was an assertion of an alleged fact or of opinion, and second, that the assertion might offend the usages, traditions and proprieties of this house.
A quick glance at the notice paper would indicate that many of the questions therein include assertions of fact, stated either implicitly or explicitly. Standing order No. 39, paragraph 1, clearly provides for the use of

Questions
facts in any question. There may be some doubt as to any objections on the grounds of the statement of an alleged fact. However, there then comes the question of opinion, and there is a very fine line of division here. In any event, even if it were opinion and therefore contrary to the orders of this house, I think it is quite readily understood and has been a practice that a question could be redrafted in a minor way, or in a major way if need be, so as to conform; therefore the question need not fall to the ground, necessarily, and be removed from the order paper on that ground.
But to me there is a much more fundamental point involved here. That is the second objection raised by the hon. member, as to whether this question offends the proprieties or the traditions of this house since it deals with a question of the political persuasions, principles or philosophy of a public servant. It would appear that none of the authorities, namely Bourinot, Beauchesne or May, deals specifically with such a question, nor by diligent search by the Speaker or his officers has it been possible to find a definite ruling by any speaker in regard thereto. But I find that in the absence of any known precedent for such a question, and having regard to the principle that a person's political convictions, persuasions or philosophy is a private matter which ordinarily is outside the administrative responsibility of the government or of any governmental corporation or body, and to the further principle that such political convictions, principles, persuasions or philosophy of any public servant is not a question of public concern or of official knowledge unless and until that person participates actively and publicly in a political organization. Therefore it is my opinion that the substance of part 3 of question No. 73 is not in line with the usages and traditions of this house.
I would refer hon. members to page 313 of Bourinot's fourth edition, where it is stated as follows:
If an irregularity should escape the attention of the clerks at the table, the Speaker will point it out before the question is called, and the member is then generally permitted to put the question when he has struck out any objectionable words.
Beauchesne's fourth edition, citation 172, is also applicable but I do not think it is necessary at this stage to read it.
I may also raise this point later this day when certain other questions may come before the house. It is my ruling that paragraph 3 of question 73 should be deleted, and the remainder of the question may be answered as the minister may deem fit.
[Mr. Speaker.)


George Ernest Halpenny: 1.	(a) Advertising revenue
(gross	 32,910,118
Interest on investments 185,291 Miscellaneous	 224,431
33,319,840
(b)	Parliamentary grant in respect of the net operating amount required to discharge the responsibilities of the national broadcasting service 70,252,273
2. Parliamentary grant (see
1. (b) above)	 70,252,273
Parliamentary grant for the capital requirements of the national broadcasting service	 6,214,232
76,466,505
4.	The control is vested as detailed in the Broadcasting Act 1958, part II.
5.	The chief executive officer of the corporation is the president-J. Alphonse Oui-met. His salary is fixed by the governor in council.


INTEREST ON FEDERAL BORROWINGS AND LOANS
Mr. Caouette: 1. What have been, for the last fiscal year, the gross national product and the gross national revenue?
2.	What rate of interest will Canada pay on her last loan from the international monetary fund amounting to $1,050,000,000?
3.	What share of the amount borrowed was loaned by Great Britain?
4.	What was the rate of interest of the last loan made by Canada to Great Britain?
Answer by: Mr. Graffley:
(Translation):
1.	The gross national product for the 12 months period ending March 31, 1962, was $37,491 million. Net national income at factor cost for the same period was $28,451 million.
2.	The drawing from the international monetary fund on June 24, 1962, totalled U.S. $300 million. On it the following charges are made by the fund:
(1)	A fixed service charge of one half of one per cent on the total amount of the drawing.
(2)	A charge payable on the fund's holdings of a currency that exceeds the member's quota. Canada's quota (subscription) in the fund is the equivalent of U.S. $500 million. As a result of the recent Canadian drawing of foreign currencies from the fund, the fund's holdings of Canadian dollars have been increased to the equivalent of U.S.

$688.2 million. On the portion of the fund's holdings of Canadian dollars in excess of our quota (equivalent to U.S. $138.2 million) the fund applies the following scale of interest charges.
0	to	3	months	0.0%	per	annum3	to	18	months	2.0%	per	annum14 to	2	years	2.5%	per	annum2	to 24	years	3.0%	per	annum2J	to	3	years	3.5%	per	annum3	to	34	years	4.0%	per	annum34	to	4	years	4.5%	per	annum4	to 44	years	5.0%	per	annum
In summary therefore, Canada paid a fixed service charge of one half of one per cent on the full amount of her U.S. $300 million drawing. Between June 24, 1962 and September 24, 1962, Canada paid no interest charges on her drawing. Since September 24, 1962, Canada has been paying interest on U.S. $132.8 million of her drawing at a rate of
2.0	per cent per annum.
3.	The Canadian drawing included an amount in sterling equal to U.S. $100 million.
4.	On the 1946 loan by Canada to Great Britain the rate of interest was 2 per cent per annum.
(Text):


GRAIN SALES TO RUSSIA
Mr. Benidickson: 1.	How many bushels of grain (specifying various types) by years were sold to the U.S.S.R. under the agreement on trade between Canada and U.S.S.R. concluded on February 29, 1956, up to the termination date of said agreement?
2.	How many bushels of grain (specifying various types) have been sold to the U.S.S.R. (by years) to date under the renewal of the said agreement as referred to in the motion of the Minister of Trade and Commerce, Hansard, page 6104, July 12, 1960?
Answer by: Mr. Nesbiit:
1. 1956 Agreement	
Period	Quantity (bushels)
Wheat	
Feb. 29/56 to	
Feb. 28/57 		. . 2,939,633 11,850,816
Mar. 1/57 to	
Feb. 28/58 		. . 1,167,936 6,218,860
Mar. 1/58 to	
Feb. 28/59 		. . 7,446,592
Grade
3	Northern
4	Northern
3	Northern
4	Northern
4 Northern
Barley
March, April,
May, 1958	 2,790,000 3 CW 6 row
296,000	4 CW 6 row
1,781,000	3 CW 2 row
Questions
2.	1960 Renewed Agreement
Period	Quantity
(bushels)
Wheat
Apr. 1/60 to
Mar. 31/61 ______ 189,653.3 2
2,513,093.3	3
Apr. 1/61 to
Mar. 31/62 ______ 4,808,570.7 3
Grade
Northern
Northern
Northern


IMMIGRATION
Mr. Howard: 1.	Are any applications for the entry to Canada of fiancees of Chinese origin on file with the Department of Citizenship and Immigration and, if so, how many?
2.	Expressed in groups by units of months, what number of the said applications have been on file for what period of time?
Answer by: Mr. McGee:
1.	No statistics are kept of the number of applications for the entry to Canada of fiancees of Chinese origin on file with the Department of Citizenship and Immigration. Such applications may be in the course of processing at any immigration office in Canada and abroad. They could not be identified without a physical check of the files in those offices.
2.	This information is not available and could not be compiled without the check described in 1.


STEWART-CASSIAR ROAD EXPENDITURES
Mr. Howard: 1.	With respect to the Stewart-Cassiar road being built under the so-called roads to resources program, what is (a) the total mileage (b) the mileage which has been constructed (i) south from Cassiar (ii) north from Stewart, and (iii) between the termini from Cassiar and from Stewart (c) the amount of money by fiscal years which has been spent to date (d) the expected date of completion?
2.	If the expected date of completion is later than the expiry date of the agreement between Canada and the province of British Columbia, what steps are being taken to re-negotiate that agreement?
Answer by: Mr. Dinsdale:
1. (a) 320.9 miles.
(b) Construction is complete from a point 55 miles south of Cassiar southerly for a distance of approximately 84 miles. Construction has been completed northerly from Stewart for 27 miles.
(c)	1958-1950	$2,001,465.581959-	60	
1,539,659.021960-	61	
1,968,345.501961-	62	
2,303,490.961962-	63 to date	
822,013.96

(d)	The province now estimates that the road will be completed in the fall of 1966.

Questions
2.	When the agreement was signed on November 4, 1958, it was expected that the road could be completed within five yearsi.e. by March 31, 1963. However, provision was made in the agreement for an additional year in the event that the weather and other conditions were such that it would be unreasonable to require British Columbia to complete the work by March 31, 1963. The maximum length of the construction period provided under the agreement is therefore six years.
On July 11 of this year, the responsible provincial minister wrote to me indicating that it was unlikely that the road could be completed by the fall of 1966. By letter of July 26, I informed the provincial minister that I would be quite prepared to recommend to my colleagues whatever extension in the life of the agreement British Columbia desires in order to provide for completion of this important project.


* INDIAN AFFAIRS BRANCH
Mr. Howard: Has a Mr. J. E. Galibois been employed within the Indian affairs branch since March 15, 1962, and, if so, what have been his occupations and locations of employment since that time?


Frank Charles McGee: Mr. J. E. Galibois has been employed within the Indian affairs branch since March 15, 1962.
From March 15 to April 10 he was superintendent of the Fort St. John agency at Fort St. John, B.C.
From April 11 to May 8 he was employed in the Indian affairs regional office in Vancouver in an administrative capacity.
From May 9 to September 4 he was absent on sick leave.
From September 4 to September 12 he was absent on annual leave.
Since September 13 he has been absent on retiring leave which terminates January 2, 1963.


* INDIAN AFFAIRS BRANCH DIRECTOR
Mr. Howard: 1.	Upon what date did Colonel H. M. Jones, director of the Indian affairs branch, attain his present position?
2.	Upon what date is it expected that the said Colonel Jones will retire?


Frank Charles McGee: 1.	September 1, 1953.
2.	No information is available.


*EGG IMPORTS FROM POLAND
Mr. Clunis: Can the Minister of Agriculture assure the house that the new contracts with Poland for the sale of wheat do not involve the importation of quantities of Polish eggs or egg concentrates into Canada?


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: Mr. Speaker, what the hon. gentleman is probably referring to are imports of Polish eggs with dark yolks which were processed in Canada and then exported. Egg imports or exports into Canada are conducted entirely by commercial interests. In the past several years exports of Canadian eggs have been much larger than imports.
I have discussed this matter with the egg producers association, and they agree it is important that Canada take no action which would hurt the export of Canadian eggs. In any case, the wheat board, which looks after the sale of Canadian wheat, has nothing to do with eggs. The question of eggs has never come up between the representatives of the Polish government and myself, as a member of the Canadian government, in discussions of wheat matters. Therefore I have to suggest that the question from this point on is hypothetical.


ASCENSION, QUE.  REPAIRS TO WHARF
Mr. Lessard (Lake St. John): What are the following details concerning the repairs which have been made by the Department of Public Works to the wharf of Gamier, on the Peribonka river, near the village of Ascension, shortly prior to the last election:
1.	The names of the persons employed thereon, and the amount paid to each of them?
2.	The cost of the materials used and the names of the suppliers, together with the price paid in each case?
3.	The name of the person in charge of such repair work?
Answer by: Mr. McCleave:
1.	The repairs to the wharf at Gamier were carried out under contract with Mr. Antonio Fleury of L'Ascension, P.Q. The department has no record of Mr. Fleury's employees. The contract was for $1,190.00.
2.	The only material furnished by the department under the terms of the contract was a special paint which was supplied by A. Ramsay & Son Limited (International Paints (Canada), Limited) at a cost of $75.36 for 12 gallons. All other materials were supplied by the contractor and the department has no record of the contractor's sources of supply and prices paid for these materials.
3.	The work was under the immediate supervision of Mr. Rene Vincent, Territorial Engineer, Quebec District Staff, Department of Public Works.


* CANADA'S CONTRIBUTION TO NATO
Mr. Malheson: 1.	Is Canada's contribution to NATO in military personnel higher or lower on a per capita basis than that of each of her NATO allies?
2.	Which national forces of the NATO alliance are equipped exclusively with non-nuclear weapons?


Douglas Scott Harkness: This information is not readily available. However, the following table shows the estimated percentage of defence expenditures to the gross national product of each of the NATO countries for the year 1961, and I would ask the permission of the house to have the table printed in Hansard rather than read it.


Mr. Speaker:: Is the house agreeable to the minister's request?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
[Editor's note: The answer referred to above is as follows:]
Belgium, 3.3; Canada, 5.3; Denmark, 3.0; France, 7.7; Germany, 4.9; Greece, 5.4; Italy, 3.9; Luxembourg, 1.2; Netherlands, 5.0; Norway, 3.9; Portugal, 7.6; Turkey, 5.5; United Kingdom, 7.3; United States, 10.3.
Questions


Douglas Scott Harkness: To reply to the second part of this question would be to show by inference which nations of the NATO alliance are equipped with nuclear weapons. In this regard, I have nothing to add to the statement I made on September 14, 1961, as reported in Hansard, pages 8356-57.


COMBINES
Mr. Knowles: 1.	Since November 13, 1959, have any persons or corporations been fined for infractions of the Combines Investigation Act or section 411 or 412 of the criminal code?
2.	If so, (a) what are the names of the persons or corporations so fined (b) what was the amount of the fine in each case (c) when was the fine imposed (d) what infractions occasioned the fine?
Answer by: Mr. Bell (Saint John-Albert):
1.	Yes.
2.
(a)
(b)	(c)
Armco Drainage & Metal
Products of Canada Limited	
The Pedlar People Limited	
Westeel Products Limited	
Rosco Metal & Roofing Products
Limited	
Canada Culvert Company Limited ..

- Nov. 13, 1959
12,000
3,000,
Canadian International Paper Co....$25,000'
Howard Smith Paper Mills	Ltd	 25,000
St. Lawrence Corp. Ltd	 20,000
The E. B. Eddy Co	 20,000
Anglo-Canadian Pulp & Paper
Mills Ltd	 20,000
Consolidated Paper Corporation Ltd. .. 20,000 Abitibi Power & Paper
Company Ltd	 15,000
Gaspesia Sulphite Co. Ltd	 15,000
St. Anne Power Co	 10,000	l
The Ontario Paper Co. Ltd	 10,000
Donnacona Paper Ltd	 lo'ooo
The KVP Co. Ltd	 10,000
Richmond Pulp & Paper Co. of
Canada Ltd	 8,000
The James Maclaren Co. Ltd	 8,000
Armstrong Forest Co	 8,000
Gair Co. of Canada Ltd	 8,000
Spruce Falls Power & Paper Co. Ltd	 8,000,
June 15, 1960
Electrical Contractors Association
of Ontario	$7,5001 June 15, 1960
C. W. Dent	 7,500 Nov. 28, 1961
(d)
Agreement to prevent or lessen competition unduly contrary to section 411(1) (d) Criminal Code
Agreement to prevent or lessen competition unduly contrary to section 498(1) (d) Criminal Code
Agreement to prevent or lessen competition unduly contrary to section 411(1) (d) Criminal Code
508	HOUSE OF COMMONS
Questions
(a)	(b)	(c)
McMaster Fuel Company Limited


Lyons Fuel Hardware and	I Oct. 23, 1961
Supplies Ltd	 4,000 j
Soo Falls Brewing	Company Ltd	 3,500J
Eddie Black's Limited	$1,800 Jan. 23, 1962
Ultra Opti-kon Limited	$ 350 Sept. 11, 1962
Ace Liquidators Limited
Sept. 13, 1962
Frederick's Department Store
Limited	$ 133 Sept. 20, 1962
Sentence was reserved until disposition of the second charge which is expected to be tried on October 5, 1962.
(d)
Agreement to prevent or lessen competition unduly contrary to section 411(1) (d) Criminal Code
Misrepresentations as to ordinary prices of articles contrary to section 33C (1) Combines Investigation Act
Misrepresentations as to ordinary prices of articles contrary to section 33C(1) Combines Investigation Act
Misrepresentation as to ordinary price of article contrary to section 33C (1) Combines Investigation Act
Misrepresentation as to ordinary price of article contrary to section 33C (1) Combines Investigation Act
point pelee national park walkway


Some hon. Members:: No.


Mr. Whelan: Has the government authorized the building of a walk-way in the marsh at Point Pelee national park and, if so, what is the anticipated cost?


Mr. Dinsdale:: This item has been recommended by the department at a cost of $62,000.


CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION
Mr. Mcllrailh: What is being done by the government to remove the Conservatives and the like-minded people from the control of the government owned radio and television service?
He said: Mr. Speaker, in view of your ruling with regard to question 73 I would ask leave to withdraw this question.


Mr. Speaker:: Has the hon. member the unanimous consent of the house to withdraw the question?


Gordon Minto Churchill: I think it would be better to rule it out of order in conformity with your earlier ruling.


Mr. Speaker:: Has the hon. member unanimous consent to withdraw his question?
[Mr. Bell (Saint John-Albert) .1


Mr. Speaker:: Since there is not unanimous consent, my answer would be that the first portion, a statement of fact or opinion, has no application in this regard. Otherwise all those remarks which I ascribed as reasons for striking out the second paragraph of question 73 would apply to the present question, and this one is therefore out of order.


Mr. Mcllrailh:: On the point of order-


Mr. Speaker:: The ruling is finished now.


George James McIlraith: I have asked you for permission to say something on the point of order involved in justification of whether or not this question is out of order.


Mr. Speaker:: But I have given my ruling; we cannot open it up again. That is doubly reinforced, I think, by the fact that the hon. member wished to withdraw his question.


George James McIlraith: For correct reasons.


Mr. Speaker:: In order that the record may not appear incorrect, I find I have misdirected myself in one particular by saying that the hon. member for Ottawa West would require the unanimous consent of the house in

order to withdraw his question. This is not the case; and therefore the hon. member, if he so desires, can withdraw his question. Since he made that request in the first place, I will accede to it.
Mi. Mcllrailh: On a question of privilege, Mr. Speaker, that raises the question of whether or not your remarks on the point should come off the record of Hansard.


Mr. Speaker:: I think the hon. member will see that they have no application to his particular question.


George James McIlraith: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Order discharged and question withdrawn.


* LOAN BY CANADA TO BRITAIN
Mr. Ouellei: 1.	Has the billion dollar loan made by Canada to England been reimbursed?
2.	What is the rate of interest applicable thereto?
(Translation):


William Heward Grafftey: Mr. Speaker, the answer to the first part of the question is as follows:
1.	Under authority of the United Kingdom Financial Agreement Act of 1946, Canada extended a credit of $1,250 million to the government of the United Kingdom, to be drawn any time prior to December 31, 1951, and under this credit the United Kingdom borrowed a total of $1,185 million in the period from 1947-1951. Payments of both principal and interest on the outstanding debt have
Questions
been made regularly under the terms of the agreement.
2.	2 per cent per annum, and
3.	January 1, 1962.
(Text):


* DAWSON CITY FESTIVAL
Mr. Robichaud: 1.	Was any entertaining troupe or group invited to take part at the Dawson City festival?
2.	If so, (a) what percentage of such group was of Canadian origin or talent (b) what was the total amount paid for such services (c) what was the amount paid for entertaining groups originating from the U.S.A.?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Mr. Speaker, the arrangements for the Dawson City festival program were made by the Dawson City festival foundation, a private organization incorporated under the Yukon societies ordinance and, by the Canadian Theatre Exchange Limited, consultants to the foundation. The question pertains to matters within the jurisdiction of these companies and not within that of the government.


VOCATIONAL SCHOOL CONSTRUCTION
Mr. Laing: 1.	What has been the total payment to date In each province under the agreement to build vocational schools?
2,	What is the value of projects approved but not completed?
Answer by: Mr. Hales: 1 and 2.
Total payments	Total estimated cost
including accounts	of approved projects
.	in process* (completed & uncompleted)*
Province	Apr. 1/61-Oct. 12/62 Apr. 1/61-Oct. 12/62
Newfoundland	$ 7,014,430	$ 24,793,441Prince Edward Island	
71,510	2,736 664Nova Scotia	
983,828	8,266,166New Brunswick	
1,069,949	5,797,664Quebec	
4,105,155	29,045,628Ontario	
57,420,786	288,908,963Manitoba	
862,334	5,252,571Saskatchewan	
949,595	15,145,584Alberta	
5,179,511	40,039,640British Columbia	
2,339,555	17,146 515Yukon	
288,538	1,154,980N-W.T	
Nil	' 'NUmada	
80,285,191	438,287,406
* Includes payments for the purchase of equipment.
510

Questions


GRAIN SALES TO CHINA
Mr. Laing: In connection with the agreement that exists for the sale of food grains to the people's republic of China:
1.	What volume in bushels and value in dollars are involved in firm contract?
2.	What volume in bushels, and of what value in dollars, has been shipped to date?
3.	Have all payments been made to date within the terms of the agreement?
4.	What is at present the credit, in dollars, extended under the agreement?
5.	What volume in bushels, and of what grades, has been shipped under the agreement?
6.	Has there been any firming up of the supplementary agreement announced by the Minister of Agriculture?
7.	If the answer to No. 6 is yes, what additional volume and value is now firmly committed?
Answer by: Mr. Hamilton:
1,	2, 5, 6, and 7: Prior to the purchase of grain by China under short term credit arrangements, there was a sale and shipment of 31.7 million bushels of wheat and 12.7 million bushels of barley on a cash basis. The value of this grain was approximately $70 million.
Following the cash sale, a long term agreement was concluded by the Canadian wheat board and the China National Cereals, Oils and Foodstuffs Import and Export Corporation and its accredited agent, the China Resources Company. The agreement calls for the purchase and supply of up to five million tons of wheat (187.6 million bushels) and one million tons of barley (46.7 million bushels) for shipment during the period June 1, 1961 to December 31, 1963. Individual sales contracts under the long term agreement are to be negotiated periodically as to quantity and price.
Six individual contracts have been concluded to date under the long term agreement, totalling 111.6 million bushels of wheat and 26.9 million bushels of barley. The estimated value of these contracts is $243.1 million.
Actual shipments to date under credit arrangements total 94.2 million bushels of wheat and 26.9 million bushels of barley at an estimated value of $208.3 million.
The following quantities of grain have been shipped during the period March 1, 1961 to September 30, 1962: -
	Cash	Credit
	(Million	(Million
Wheat	Bushels)	Bushels)No. 1 Northern ... .	.... 	10.3No. 2 Northern . . . .	
27.1	55.6No. 3 Northern 	.... 4.6	28.331.7	94.2Barley No. 1 Feed 	.... 12.7	20.3No. 2 Feed 	6.612.7	26.93.	Yes. Payment terms for the contracts negotiated to date are: 25 per cent cash and 75 per cent on 273 days credit with interest. All credit drafts under these arrangements have been honoured on the scheduled due dates.
As at October 5, $96.4 million.


WORK WEEK, FISHERY AND PROTECTION OFFICERS
Mr. Stewart: 1.	Are fishery officers employed on a forty hour week basis? If so, on what date was this basis introduced?
2.	Are protection officers employed on a forty hour week basis? If so, on what date was this basis introduced?
3.	Were protection officers as a class paid a bonus for any purpose during the past five years? If so, for what purpose?
Answer by: Mr. MacLean:
1.	Yes. July 1, 1958.
2.	Yes. July 1, 1958.
3.	No.


JASPER NATIONAL PARK-HIGHWAY USE
Mr. Leboe: 1.	What are the regulations for the use of commercial trucks on highway 16 through Jasper national park?
2.	What are the plans for completion of highway 16 through Jasper national park?
3.	Will plans for highway 16 call for three lanes on hills to take care of slow traffic?
Answer by: Mr. Dinsdale:
1.	The use of commercial trucks on highway 16 through Jasper national park (commonly referred to as the Jasper-Edmonton highway section and the Jasper-Yellowhead highway) is governed by the national parks highway traffic regulations, established pursuant to the National Parks Act, more specifically the following sections:
Section 8:	(2) The chief may authorize
the superintendent to issue a park motor licence for the operation of a truck over the Jasper-Yellowhead highway in Jasper park;
(3) No person shall operate a truck on the highway described in subsection (2);
(a)	the overall height of which including its load exceeds twelve feet, six inches;
(b)	the weight of which including its load and driver exceeds seven tons; or
(c)	between the hours of seven o'clock in the forenoon and seven o'clock in the afternoon during the period commencing the 1st day of May and ending the 30th day of September next, both days inclusive.
Section 10:	"No person shall drive or
operate a truck
(a) that exceeds forty five feet in overall length or eight feet in width on that section of the Jasper-Edmonton highway in Jasper park between the eastern boundary of the park and the townsite of Jasper;

(b)	that exceeds thirty five feet in overall length or eight feet in width on the Banff-Windermere highway in Kootenay park between the western boundary of the park and Radium Hot Springs townsite;
(c)	that exceeds twenty six feet in overall length or eight feet in width if such motor vehicle is used for the conveyance of gasoline, lubrication oil, fuel oil or liquefied petroleum gas on any highway in Banff, Jasper, Kootenay or Yoho parks other than those referred to in paragraph (a) and (b); or
(d)	that exceeds twenty four feet in overall length or eight feet in width, if such motor vehicle is used for any purpose other than those specified in paragraph (c), on any highway in Banff, Jasper, Kootenay or Yoho parks other than those referred to in paragraphs (a) and (b)."
Section 7A of the schedule of fees: "Trucks entering Banff, Jasper, Yoho, Kootenay, Glacier and Mount Revelstoke national parks, other than those described in item 7, (item 7 deals with trucks entering Kootenay national park)
(a)	with carrying capacity up to and including two tons (i) single trip fee, $1; (ii) fifty trip fee, $25; (iii) licence, $50.
(b)	with carrying capacity exceeding two tons (i) single trip fee, $2; (ii) fifty trip fee, $50; (iii) licence, $100."
2.	Subject to sufficient funds being made available annually by parliament, it is anticipated that the reconstruction of that portion of highway 16 (the Jasper-Edmonton highway) between the Jasper east gate and the Jasper townsite will be completed in about five years starting with the 1963-64 fiscal year. There are still 20 miles to be reconstructed on this section.
In addition there is an 18-mile section of highway 16 (the Jasper-Yellowhead highway) between Jasper townsite and the western boundary of the park. Some right of way clearing was undertaken on this section as part of the winter work programs from 1957 to 1961. Although this section of highway 16 is included in the trunk highway reconstruction program the actual phasing of the work has not yet been decided upon.
Questions
3.	Highway 16 is being reconstructed to trans-Canada highway standards. Based on these standards, slow traffic lanes will be provided wherever applicable.


*GOLD RESERVE AND MONEY IN CIRCULATION
Mr. Cole: 1.	What is the value of the gold reserve held by the Bank of Canada as security for the money supply of this country?
2.	What is the amount of money now in circulation in this country?
(Translation):


William Heward Grafftey: Mr. Speaker, the answer to the first part of question No. 107, is that the Bank of Canada does not hold any gold.
Here is the answer to part two: If the question refers to bank notes, the Bank of Canada's liability for notes in circulation as at September 30 was $2,132,715,110.
(Text):


*BUTTER PRODUCTION AND STORAGE
Mr. Malheson: 1.	What was the volume of production of butter from January 1 to June 30, 1962?
2.	What was the volume of consumption of butter in the same period?
3.	What is the latest information available with respect to volume of butter stocks or their equivalent in butter oil in storage?


Mr. Nesbitt:: 1.	The volume of production of butter from January 1 to June 30, 1962 was 160,-
556,000	pounds.
2.	The volume of consumption of butter in the same period was 144,406,000 pounds.
3.	Butter stocks at September 1, 1962 were
144.932.000	pounds. In addition there were
82.269.000	pounds of butter oil or the equivalent of 102,836,000 pounds of butter.


PER CAPITA PRODUCTION AND DEBT
Mr. Malheson: 1.	What is the production output per capita, together with percentage change in comparison with 1960, for the year 1961?
2.	What is the national debt per employed person as at March 31, 1962? (Reference is made to starred question No. 116 as reported in Hansard on February 12. 1962).
Answer by: Mr. Nesbill:
1.
G.N.P.	G.N.P. in	G.N.P. in	G.N.P. in Constant	Percentage Change	Percentage Change inin	Constant	Current	(1957)	in	ConstantCurrent	(1957)	Dollars	Dollars	Current	(1957)Dollars	Dollars	Per Capita	Per Capita	Dollars	Dollars35,928 36,844	33,907 34,529	2,011 2,020	1,897 1,893	+0.4	-0.2
27507-3-331
Questions


* JOHN FISHER
Mr. Howard: Is a Mr. John Fisher employed in any capacity with the government of Canada and, if so, what is his position and duties, how long has he been so employed and at what salary and expense allowance, what total amount of money has been paid to him as salary and as expenses, and under what vote or votes of the estimates for each fiscal year during his employment has this salary and expense allowance been paid?


John George Diefenbaker: (a) Yes. (b) Special assistant to the Prime Minister, (c) Mr. Fisher's duties are to assist in the routine operations of the Prime Minister's office and to handle any matters that are assigned to him. (d) Reported for duty on July 11, 1961. (e) $10,000.00 per annum (no expense allowance paid), (f) An amount of $12,568.85 salary to October 15, 1962. (g) (i) Vote 313 (1961-62) privy council-general administration; (ii) Vote 5 (1962-63) privy council-general administration. *


*MONTMAGNY, QUE.  REMOVAL OF HARBOUR OBSTRUCTION
Mr. Cook: Has the Minister of Public Works lately received, from the county of Montmagny-L'Islet, inquiries or memorandums concerning the blasting of a rocky ridge off the wharf of Montmagny which prevents coastal navigation at this natural harbour?
(Translation):


Robert Jardine McCleave: Mr. Speaker, the answer is no.

(Text):


* NIGHT TRAIN SERVICE, QUEBEC-MONTREAL-OTTAWA
Mr. Cook: Is the Department of Transport at the present time looking into the possibility of re-establishing, as early as this fall, the night trains between Quebec, Montreal, and Ottawa?


James Alexander McBain: The reply to this question is as follows. The board of transport commissioners advise that the Canadian Pacific Railway Company provided an overnight passenger service between Montreal and Quebec up to May 15, 1961, at which time this service was discontinued. This reduction in passenger train service was investigated by the board and their review of the background leading up to this change indicated that, because of a substantial decline in patronage, the company found it necessary to discontinue the service. It was evident that the patronage of these trains had diminished since the year 1955 by some 45 per cent, and that in consequence of this reduction in passenger traffic the trains were being operated at a substantial loss.
Under the circumstances the board found that the financial improvement for the company in discontinuing the trains outweighed any incidental inconvenience to the travelling public between these points and no action was taken to interfere with the company's proposal. In this connection the board took into consideration the remaining service provided between these two important centres.
The board states that there has been no public demand for a restoration of this service since the trains were discontinued in May 1961, and no action is being taken by the board to have this service restored effective with the fall change of timetable.



IPPERWASH CAMP


Mr. Burgess: 1.	How many civilian employees have been released recently upon the closing of the Ipperwash military camp?
2.	Have any steps been taken to provide alternative employment for such former employees?
3.	If so, for how many former employees has employment been provided?
Answer by: Mr. Harkness:
1.	A short break in employment occurred during the period between the end of the cadet camp and the return of the battalion

which has been stationed there from summer exercises at Camp Gagetown, N.B. This involved 18 civilians.
2.	Yes.
3.	16.



WALLACEBURG, ONT.  CLOSING OF SUGAR FACTORY

Mr. Burgess: 1.	Is the government aware that the Canada and Dominion Sugar Company factory at Wallaceburg, Ontario, has been permanently closed and will shortly be dismantled?
2.	If so, has the government any plans to assist the sugar beet growers and processors to ensure the preservation of the sugar beet industry in southwestern Ontario and elsewhere?
3.	If the answer is in the affirmative, what steps are being taken in this regard?
Answer by: Mr. Hamilton:
1.	The government is aware that the Dominion Sugar Company factory at Wallaceburg, Ontario, is closed but have no knowledge as to what plans the company may have with respect to this plant.
2.	Sugar beet growers in Canada received no assistance through price support prior to the introduction of the Agricultural Stabilization Act in 1958. Since 1958 sugar beet growers in Canada, including growers in southwestern Ontario, have been assisted by means of deficiency payments. The total assistance provided for the three crop years, 1958 to 1960 inclusive, amounted to $7,042,504.00.
During the past year an intensive review was made of sugar beet production in Canada, following which the method of determining the support level for the 1962 crop was modified. Previously growers had been paid the difference between a prescribed price for beets and returns received by growers from sugar beet processors. On the 1962 crop the amount that the growers will be paid will be determined by the relationship between the value of imported raw sugar and the support level. It is believed this method of providing support should protect the industry from the fluctuations in the world sugar market and thus insure the preservation of the sugar beet industry in Canada.
3.	See answer to No. 2.
^MONTREAL HARBOUR



TRAFFIC OFFENCES

Mr. Deschaielels: Since the opening of the 1962 navigation season in the harbour of Montreal:
1.	How many tickets have been issued by the traffic officers of the national harbours board for speeding on the harbour road along the St. Lawrence river?
2.	How many tickets were issued for illegal
parking?
3.	Of the total number of speeding or parking tickets, how many have been issued to harbour employees, including longshoremen?
Questions
4.	How many parking permits of harbour
employees, including longshoremen, have been cancelled?
5.	What has been the total amount of fines collected for speeding or parking offences in the harbour area of Montreal?


James Alexander McBain: 1.	Sixty.
2.	One thousand and eighty two.
3.	Information not available. Only licence number of automobile is indicated on tickets.
4.	Twenty five.
5.	(i) Speeding offences:	fines paid in
city court and information not available at this time, (ii) Parking offences:	$5,125.
(estimated).



* EXPORT IMPORT BANK


Mr. Gordon: On what date did the Canadian government or any of its officials first approach the export import bank for assistance in connection with foreign exchange in the winter or spring of 1962?


William Heward Grafftey: June 20, 1962.



* FEASIBILITY STUDY, P.E.I.-N.B. CAUSEWAY

Mr. Stewart: 1.	Is the feasibility of constructing a causeway between Prince Edward Island and New Brunswick now under active examination and, if so. who is the officer charged with the task of making this examination?
2.	Has this officer, or his associates, or any other person (or persons) commissioned by the government made any report, or reports, to the appropriate minister since April 1, 1962 and, if so, what are the dates of those reports?


Robert Jardine McCleave: 1.	The department has retained the three firms of Langevin, Letendre and Monti, Cana-dian-British Engineering Consultants, and H. G. Acres and Company Limited, as a joint venture to carry out the engineering on this project, under the name of Northumberland Consultants Limited. The department is presently setting out the terms of the agreement between the department and the Northumberland Consultants Limited.
2.	No.



GOVERNMENT CORPORATIONS


Mr. Fisher: What is being done by the government to remove Liberals and like-minded persons from the control of government-owned corporations?
He said: This question and the next I wish to withdraw.
Order discharged and question withdrawn.

Questions




Mr. Fisher: What is being done by the government to remove persons who subscribe to the theories of Social Credit from control of government owned corporations?
Order discharged and question withdrawn.



SUBSIDIES TO POTATO GROWERS, N.B.

Mr. Peters: 1.	Was a federal subsidy paid to the potato growers of New Brunswick for the 1961-62 winter growing season and, if so, what was the amount of the subsidy (a) in total (b) per barrel?
2.	What was the total amount paid the farmer per barrel, taking into account the subsidy and the amount paid by the exporter?
3.	What was the profit or loss per barrel to the farmer, based on his cost of production as determined by the royal commission on the potato industry in New Brunswick?
4.	What was the profit or loss per barrel to the exporter?
5.	Were telegrams sent by the stabilization board to firms interested in bidding on contracts for the export of these subsidized potatoes and, if so, (a) when were the telegrams sent (b) by what date were answers required?
6.	How many firms bid for the contract, and which firm was successful?
7.	For what foreign market were these subsidies originally authorized?
8.	Were the subsidies subsequently transferred to another market and, if so, why?
Answer by: Mr. Hamilton:
1.	Yes, on potatoes from the 1961 crop.
The subsidy on potatoes diverted to starch
amounted to $614,505.87, or 99.5 cents per barrel. The amount of subsidy on potatoes exported out of Canada has not yet been determined.
2.	The subsidy was conditional on the grower receiving a total of $1.45 per barrel, Canada No. 1 grade potatoes exported, and $1.35 per barrel on potatoes diverted to starch. The $1.35 per barrel on potatoes diverted to starch was equivalent to $1.45 per barrel Canada No. 1 grade since potatoes diverted to starch could include up to 12 per cent Canada No. 1 grade small potatoes.
3.	The royal commission on the potato industry in New Brunswick reported the cost of growing potatoes on 31 farms at $1.49 per barrel for the ten low cost farms and $2.26 per barrel for the ten high cost farms. Since the majority of the farmers undoubtedly sold a considerable proportion of their crop through regular commercial channels at prices somewhat higher than was paid for either starch diversion or export, it is impossible to calculate the profit or loss to the farmer.
4.	Not available.
5.	On April 2, 1962, telegrams were sent to ten exporters who had previously indicated an interest in exporting potatoes requesting information on quantities and prospective markets and assistance required to make firm

offers. Based on the information received in replies, a further telegram was forwarded to exporters on April 6 inviting tenders for shipments for export with replies to be received by April 10.
6.	Tenders were invited from ten firms. The only successful firm was McCormack and Zatzman, Saint John, N.B.
7.	Spain.
8.	The program was extended to include other foreign markets because of the possibility of making additional sales and thus provide a market for surplus maritime potatoes.
*	ASSISTANCE IN MARKETING ONTARIO CORN

Question No. 129-Mr. Whelan:
1.	Does the government have any plans to assist the farmers of western Ontario with the marketing of their bumper corn crop now being harvested?
2.	Does the government plan to re-introduce the surtax on corn imported from the United States used for agricultural production in Ontario?
3.	Does the government provide freight assistance on American corn destined to the Atlantic provinces and, if so, why now. when Ontario crop is being harvested?


Mr. Jorgenson:: 1.	No. However, Ontario is a feed grain deficient province and imports about one million tons of feed grains annually. There is a ready market for corn produced in Ontario but somewhat less than half the production is sold, with the remainder fed by the individual producer. The Ontario corn producers recently voted against any plan to market their corn under a producers' marketing scheme.
2.	The government is not contemplating at this time the reintroduction of a surtax on corn imported for use in agricultural production.
3.	No. The policy which provided $5 per ton assistance on any feed corn delivered to the Atlantic provinces terminated September 30, 1962.
*	RECIPIENTS OF UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE



BENEFITS

Mr. Deschaielels: 1.	How many unemployed are now receiving unemployment insurance benefits?
2.	In order to give a more complete picture of the employment situation, would the Minister of Labour, each month, tell the house how many out of work persons are drawing unemployment benefits?


Mr. Hales:: 1.	This information is not available.
2.	Statistics are not maintained as to the number of active claimants who are actually in receipt of benefit at a given time. It would, therefore, not be possible to supply this information.


Mr.   Marlin@Essex East: I rise on a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Surely the hon. gentleman cannot mean that the answer to question No. 1 is that these figures are not available, as they have been given to the house previously by the Minister of Labour.


Mr. Starr:: Oh, no.


Alfred Dryden Hales: This answer was obtained from the unemployment insurance commission.


Michael Starr: Speaking to a point of order, Mr. Speaker, since my name was brought into this matter as having given similar information to that asked for, I must say that statement is untrue and incorrect. This type of information has never been given. We asked the unemployment insurance commission to answer these questions, and these are the answers they gave us.



*SOCIAL ASSISTANCE PAYMENTS TO PROVINCES

Mr. Cote: 1.	What amount has been paid, since January 1, 1962, to the social assistance services of the ten provinces of Canada to assist families and individuals no longer receiving unemployment insurance?
2.	How many persons benefit by these social assistance contributions?


Jay Waldo Monteith: The answer to parts 1 and 2
is as follows:
On the basis of the report forms employed by the provinces in the administration of their social assistance programs, that are available in my department, it does not appear that data on numbers of assistance recipients whose unemployment insurance benefits have been exhausted are normally collected by the provinces. We are, however, getting in touch with the provincial departments of public welfare to determine if the kind of information requested by the hon. member can be obtained.
Questions



*FRENCH LANGUAGE BROADCASTING, B.C.

Mr. Priilie: 1.	Has the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation given consideration to the establishment of a French language radio station in the lower mainland of British Columbia?
2.	If so, is a low power repeater type station or stations possible or practicable?
3.	Is the C.B.C. in a position to give a brief statement on the overall problem of French language broadcasting in B.C. including demand and cost factors?


George Ernest Halpenny: 1.	Yes.
2.	Not practicable at present, because of costs involved to extend the French network service to British Columbia.
3.	With the exception of the greater Vancouver area the French language population in British Columbia is scattered. To provide French language service the cost per capita would be high. Quite a number of requests have been received over the past few years from individuals and groups. All such requests are considered in relation to the overall demands from all parts of Canada, and extension of service is carried out on the basis of giving priority to areas in which the largest number of people can be served at the lowest per capita cost.



IMPORTS OF APPLES AND BY-PRODUCTS

Mr. Rondeau: 1.	What quantity of apples and apple by-products were imported into Canada during 1961?
2.	From what countries were such imports made?
3.	What was the volume and value in dollars of such imports?
4.	In what centres in Canada was this produce sold?
Answer by: Mr. Nesbitt:
1, 2 and 3.
Imports into Canada, by countries, of apples and apple by-products, separately classified, during the calendar year 1961:
Class	Country	Lb.	ValueApples, including	United Kingdom ...	. 173,700	$ 19,619crab-apples	New Zealand	. 2,174,304	202,698(class 1)	United States 	. 55,947,682	4,039,244Totals 	. 58,295,686	$4,261,561Apples, dried	Italy 	. 31,000	9,195(class 31)	Australia	. 11,200	4,097United States 	. 784,592	296,408Totals	. 826,792	$ 309,700
Apple juice and apple sauce-not separately classified.
4.	Not available.

Questions



WINDERMERE LAKE, B.C.  BOAT LOADING RAMP

Mr. Byrne: Did the federal government at any time, since 1959, construct a boat-loading ramp on lake Windermere, B.C., and, if so (a) under what item in the estimates was this expenditure authorized (b) what was the cost of this undertaking?
Answer by: Mr. McCleave:
Yes. A boatloading ramp was built on lake Windermere at Windermere, B.C. in 1960 and one is now under construction at Invermere, B.C. on the same lake.
(a)	The work at Windermere was authorized under vote 368 of the 1960-61 estimates "Miscellaneous works not otherwise provided for".
The work at Invermere was authorized under vote 195 of the 1962-63 estimates "Miscellaneous works not otherwise provided for, including expenditures on works other than federal property".
(b)	The expenditure at Windermere was $5,334.76.
The estimated expenditure at Invermere is $8,000, the work being about 80 per cent complete at this time.



OKANAGAN LAKE, B.C.  BREAKWATER

Mr. Byrne: Did the federal government at any time since 1959, give a grant to any authority toward the building of a breakwater on lake Okanagan, and, if so (a) what concrete purpose did it serve (b) to whom was the grant made (c) what was the total amount (d) under what item in the estimates was it granted?
Answer by: Mr. McCleave:
The federal government has not given a grant to any authority toward the building of a breakwater on lake Okanagan since 1959.



WHEAT EXPORTS TO U.K.

Mr. Teillei: What were the exports of wheat in bushels to the United Kingdom, during the following crop years: 1956-57, 1957-58, 1958-59, 1959-60, 1960-61, 1961-62?
Answer by: Mr. Nesbitt:
Export clearances of Canadian wheat to Great Britain during the crop years 1956-57 to 1961-62 were as follows:
1956-57, 79,629,421 bushels; 1957-58, 90,325,520, bushels; 1958-59, 87,032,155 bushels; 195960, 79,950,544 bushels; 1960-61, 78,616,245 bushels; 1961-62, 73,738,338 bushels.
In addition, customs' exports of Canadian wheat flour in terms of wheat equivalent were as follows:
1956-57, 10,806,097 bushels; 1957-58, 13,735,048 bushels; 1958-59, 13,855,251 bushels; 195960, 13,627,732 bushels; 1960-61, 13,157,035 bushels; 1961-62. 12,210,983 bushels.



R.C.A.F. BASES IN MANITOBA

Mr. Teillei: 1.	How many Royal Canadian Air Force bases were in operation in the province of Manitoba on June 30, 1962?
2.	How many are now in operation?
3.	Is it the intention of the government to close any R.C.A.F. bases in Manitoba and, if so, which ones?
Answer by: Mr. Harkness:
1.	Seven.
2.	Seven.
3.	No.



* IMPORTATION OF AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSIONS

Mr. Marlin (Essex Easl): 1.	Has the government renewed the order in council, providing free entry of automatic transmissions into Canada, which expires October 31, 1962?
2.	Has the government given consideration to the adoption of policies designed to encourage the manufacture of automatic transmissions by Canadian automotive companies in Canada in concert with one another or on an individual basis?
3.	Has the government given consideration to the desirability of establishing a crown corporation in Canada for the manufacture in Canada of automatic transmissions to provide employment and avoid the further drain on Canada's foreign exchange reserves?


William Heward Grafftey: The answer to question 1 is no, to question 2, yes and question 3, no.



SECRET ORDERS IN COUNCIL

Mr. Knowles: 1.	Are there now in effect any secret orders in council (i.e., regulations or classes of regulations exempted from the requirement that they be made public as required by section 3, section 4, subsection (1) of section 6, and section 7 of the Regulations Act) ?
2.	If so, how many, and what are the numbers and dates of the orders in council exempting such regulations from the requirements noted above?
Answer by: Mr. Diefenbaker:
There are no secret orders in council. Certain orders only, mainly comprising regulations covered by the Regulations Act, are required to be published. Other orders are listed in the summary of orders in council regularly tabled in parliament. All orders are produced in parliament on demand excepting for certain orders relating to mutual aid transfers to allied countries, which as a matter of courtesy and security to allied governments are shown on a private basis to members wishing to see them.
There are many orders exempted from publication under the Regulations Act which are regularly published in other forms that are more convenient to those normally using them.
The exemptions under the Regulations Act are provided by order in council P.C. 19541787 of 18th November, 1954, and can be found in the statutory orders and regulations consolidation, 1955, volume 3, page 2676.



COMBINES


Mr. Howard: 1.	Has the restrictive trade practices commission held any (a) public and (b) private hearings, with respect to the inquiry under section 42 of the Combines Investigation Act relating to the manufacture, distribution and sale of drugs; and, if so, upon what dates, and in what locales were these hearings?
2.	Are any further hearings contemplated and, if so, when and where?
3.	Upon what date did the commission commence its preparations for a report to the Minister of Justice?
4.	Has the commission engaged the services of anyone (a) inside, and (b) outside the public service of Canada for the preparation of such a report; and, if so, what is the name and address of each such person, the amount of his remuneration both total and particular, the amount of time in terms of days that he has spent in working for the commission on the said report, and type of service which he performed?
5.	What length of time is it estimated will be required before the said report is ready to be transmitted to the Minister of Justice?
Answer by: Mr. Bell (Saint John-Alberl):
1.	(a) Yes.
Date 1961
July 4-6	
July 10-11	
July 17-18	
July 20	
July 24	
July 27	
July 31	
August 3	
October 2	
October 16-20 and
October 23-27 ..
November 28-29 ..
(b) No.
2.	This will be a matter to be decided by the commission as it is constituted after the expiration of the terms of the chairman and Mr. Whiteley at the end of October 1962 and no answer can be made at this time.
3.	Following the receipt in December 1961 of complete transcript of the hearings referred to in 1(a) above, a study was commenced of the evidence and argument. This work necessarily proceeded concurrently with that in other inquiries.
4.	(a) No. (b) No.
5.	The submission of a report will be a matter to be decided by the commission as it is constituted after the expiration of the terms of the chairman and Mr. Whiteley and it is therefore not possible to make an estimate at this time.
Questions




Mr. Howard: 1.	Since January 1,	1950, has the restrictive
trade practices commission reported on the Argus Corporation or any of its subsidiaries and, if so, with respect to each such report by name, what was (a) the name and address of each company
(b)	the nature of the recommendations relating to each company and (c) the results of any litigation, other court action, or government action, arising out of each such recommendation?
2.	Was one M. W. McCutcheon a director or officer of any of the said companies at the time any such report was made?
Answer by: Mr. Bell (Saint John-Alberl):
1.	(a) The restrictive trade practices commission has not made any report on the Argus Corporation. The Argus Corporation is reported to be a specialized investment company which has held stock in a number of Canadian companies. While the recent report of the commission concerning the manufacture, distribution and sale of paperboard shipping containers and related products made a brief reference to the relationship between one company and Argus Corporation, in no instance have companies concerned in inquiries been investigated from the point of view of their relationship with that corporation. The extent of the stockholdings of Argus Corporation, therefore, has not been the subject of a published report by the commission, so that it is not possible on the basis of reports of the commission to state whether particular companies referred to therein have been subsidiaries.
(b)	Answered by 1(a) above.
(c)	Answered by 1(a) above.
2.	Answered by 1(a) above.



INSTITUTE OF PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION

Mr. Badanai: 1.	Does the institute of public administration of Canada hold a charter by virtue of a federal statute?
2.	If so, (a) has a recent application for supplementary letters patent to effect a change in the constitution of the institute been made (b) have the supplementary letter patent been granted and, if not, for what reason was it refused?
Answer by: Mr. Halpenny:
1.	Yes.
2.	(a) Yes. (b) No; application is being held in abeyance at the request of the officials of the association.



GOLD AND EXCHANGE RESERVES

Mr. Gordon: 1.	During the month of June 1962, was there $179 million of support for the Canadian dollar, from sources outside the country, which has not been disclosed?
2.	If not, what accounts for the difference between the figures shown in the official statements of our gold and exchange reserves (as published monthly)
Place
Ottawa, Ontario Halifax, Nova Scotia Winnipeg, Manitoba Regina, Saskatchewan Edmonton, Alberta Calgary, Alberta Vancouver, British Columbia Victoria, British Columbia Montreal, Quebec
Toronto, Ontario Ottawa, Ontario

Questions
and the figures for deliveries from the exchange fund which were given to this house by the Prime Minister on October 2?
Answer by: Mr. Grafftey:
1.	No.
2.	Other transactions, to which attention was drawn by the Prime Minister on October 2, including the proceeds of sales of foreign exchange for future delivery.



*NAVAL AMMUNITION DEPOTS


Mr. McWilliam: Has the government given consideration to the grievance raised over the system of stand-by duties and pay practices, related thereto, of civilian duty officers at Canada's naval ammunition depots and, if so, has a decision been reached?


Douglas Scott Harkness: Yes. The official publication "Canadian Naval Armament Services Instructions" is being amended to reduce the requirement for duty officers to stand long periods of duty in Canadian naval ammunition depots. This decision can be implemented only after the necessary pay provisions have been approved, and such approval is now being sought.



* GRAVEL TENDERS


Mr. McWilliam: Has the government given consideration to the inclusion of a minimum rate clause in federal government, or federal crown company, public tenders, at rates now established by respective provincial governments as it appertains to the trucking of gravel, or like material, by individually owned trucks engaged by the prime contractor, or subcontractor and, if so, what decision has been reached?


William Heward Grafftey: The answer to the first part of the question is yes.
The answer to the second part is that there has been no decision to change the present contractual arrangements.



* MIRAMICHI RIVER NAVIGATION IMPROVEMENTS

[Stage Direction]
Question No. 155
Mr. McWilliam:: Have surveys been made toward the improvement of the channel depth of the Miramichi river, New Brunswick, and for harbour and wharf improvements at Newcastle and Chatham and, if so, what are the results of these surveys?


Robert Jardine McCleave: Not as yet, but a survey of the Miramichi river has been arranged and is expected to commence this fall. No surveys are planned at this time for Newcastle and Chatham. *



* WINTER WORKS IN UNORGANIZED PARISHES

Mr. Laprise: Will the Department of Labour make arrangements this fall, under the winter works program, to assist parishes which are not organized as municipalities and are not looked after by county councils?


Alfred Dryden Hales: The authority under the municipal winter works incentive program for the coming winter to include qualified projects carried out in unorganized settlements applies to settlements in areas where there is no form of local government. Projects undertaken within the boundaries of a city, town, village, township, county, parish or other form of local government, must be carried out by or under the sponsorship of the appropriate local authority, which in this case would be the county councils. Such projects must be publicly owned and available for public use.



CORNWALL HARBOUR DREDGING

Mr. Lamoureux: Is it the Intention of the Department of Public Works to dredge the turning basin and the approach channel at Cornwall harbour from the present depth of 22 feet to the minimum of 27 feet provided in the main St. Lawrence seaway channel and, if so, when will this work be undertaken?
Answer by: Mr. McCleave:
Not at the present time. Consideration will be given to dredging the turning basin and approach channel when sufficient traffic is indicated to warrant the expense.



FARM LOAN APPLICATIONS, STORMONT COUNTY

Mr. Lamoureux: 1.	How many applications were made to the farm credit corporation during the year ended March 31, 1962, on the security of farm lands in the county of Stormont?
2.	Of the applications made during that period, how many were approved?
Answer by: Mr. Hamilton:
1.	14.
2.	13.



* RETROACTIVE CIVIL SERVICE SALARY ADJUSTMENTS

Mr. Ryan: Is the salary adjustment effective date, namely October 1, 1961, for group B of approximately 50,000 civil servants, protected by the government in respect to retroactivity?


William Heward Grafftey: No decision has been taken by the government up to this time to amend or alter the principle established for retroactivity.



*PLANT EXPANSION RESULTING FROM TARIFF SURCHARGES

Mr. Addison: Has the Department of Trade and Commerce been in consultation with representatives of businesses in regard to the effect on plant expansion that might take place as a result of the surcharges provided in the orders in council of June 1962, and, if so. has any advice been given to representatives of businesses in order to assist them in making adjustments when the surcharges are removed?


Wallace Bickford (Wally) Nesbitt: In announcing the import charges June 24, the Prime Minister indicated

quite clearly they will remain in effect only as long as necessary to deal with the balance of payments problem. The temporary aspect of the import surcharges has been confirmed by both the Prime Minister and the Minister of Finance. Officials of the Department of Trade and Commerce have brought these statements to the attention of businessmen who have inquired about the status of the surcharges, and have made them aware of government policy when considering expansion plans.



NATIONAL DEFENCE EXPENDITURE REDUCTIONS

Mr. Maiheson: What austerity measures are being implemented in the Department of National Defence in order to reduce expenditures in the current fiscal year?
Answer by: Mr. Harkness:
In conformity with the reasons given by the Prime Minister, the program to reduce expenditures in the fiscal year 1962-63 for the Department of National Defence was outlined in a statement issued by the Minister of National Defence, August 24, 1962. Copies of this statement are available.



CANSO CAUSEWAY TOLLS

Mr. MacEachen: 1.	Are the tolls presently collected on the Canso causeway provided for in any agreement between the provincial and federal governments and, if so, what is the term of the agreement?
2.	Does any such agreement prevent the provincial government from ceasing the collection of tolls if it so wished?
Answer by: Mr. McBain:
1.	The agreement between the federal government and the government of the province of Nova Scotia authorized the province, if it so desired, to levy tolls on the highway portion of the causeway. The agreement continues in force and effect for 21 years and thereafter from year to year until terminated by either of the parties thereto by a twelve months' notice in writing to the other.
2.	See answer to No. 1.



H.M.C.S. &quot;ST. LAURENT&quot;

Mr. Herridge: What have been the activities of H.M.C.S. St. Laurent since August 1, 1962, and what is planned for this ship until December 31, 1963?
Answer by: Mr. Harkness:
H.M.C.S. St. Laurent was in service with the R.C.N. Pacific fleet until September 1, 1962 when normal refit commenced at H.M.C. Dockyard Esquimalt. On October 26 the ship will proceed to Burrard dry dock, Vancouver for major alteration to take ASW helicopters. It is expected that this work will be completed August 1, 1963. The ship will then 27507-3-34J
Questions
return to Esquimalt where equipment removed for overhaul during the refit will be replaced. Following this, the ship will undergo trials and work-ups until December 31, 1963.



AUTOMOTIVE PARTS IMPORTED FROM U.S.

Mr. Marlin (Essex East): 1.	What was the value of automotive parts, imported from the United States, for the year 1961?
2.	What amount in dollars of such imports was dutiable?
3.	What amount in dollars entered Canada duty free?
4.	What percentage of the dollar value of imported parts entered Canada duty free?
Answer by: Mr. Nesbiil:
1.	$292,043,915 (import classes 5646, 5648, 5649, 5650)
2.	$93,450,454.
3.	$198,593,461.
4.	68 per cent.



RESTORATION OF HOG PREMIUM

Mr. Honey: With reference to the statement of the Minister of Agriculture in the house on October 3, 1962, at page 149 of Hansard, concerning the reduction in premiums on grade "A" hogs, has the government given consideration to the restoration of this premium to its former level and, (a) if so, what is the anticipated date of restoration and, (b) if not, will the minister give early consideration to the restoration of the premium?
Answer by: Mr. Hamilton:
(a)	The question of the restoration of hog premiums has not as yet been considered by the government.
(b)	The level of hog premiums is a subject of continuing review and consideration.



REPRESENTATIONS RESPECTING RUSSIAN FISHING BASE IN CUBA

Mr. Morris: Have any representations been made to the Soviet Union or Cuba concerning the announced intention by the former to build a $12,000,000 fishing port in the latter to service the Soviet fishing fleet in the North Atlantic and, if so, what is the nature of the representations?
Answer by: Mr. Green:
No representations have been made.



CARNATION COMPANY


Mr. Bernier: 1.	Following the report made by a commission established in 1960 to inquire into the restrictive trade practices employed in the manufacture, distribution and sale of evaporated milk and allied products, was the Carnation Company found guilty of restrictive trade practices?
2.	If so, does the government intend to commence proceedings under the Combines Investigation Act against the Carnation Company?
Answer by: Mr. Bell (Saint John-Albert):
1. No.

Questions
2. Following receipt of the report of the restrictive trade practices commission dated August 28, 1962, the matter has been referred to counsel for an opinion as to whether prosecution or other proceedings are warranted.



APPLICATIONS FOR BAIT FREEZER GRANTS, N.B.

Mr. Robichaud: Was any application received for grants on bait freezers in the province of New Brunswick since January 1, 1961, and if so (a) what was the total number of applications received (b) how many applications were approved, and what was the total amount paid?
Answer by: Mr. MacLean:
Yes. (a) 1. (b) None.



PORK SUBSIDY PAYMENTS, 1962

Mr. Robichaud: What was the total amount paid in each province under the program for subsidy on pork for the year ended March 31, 1962?
Answer by: Mr. Hamilton:
Premium paid on A grade hogs by province or origin, April 1, 1961 to March 31, 1962:
British Columbia	 30,645
Alberta	1,451,376
Saskatchewan	 589,160
Manitoba	 450,963
Ontario	2,334,612
Quebec	1,095,549
New Brunswick	 57,612
Nova Scotia	 76,614
Prince Edward Island	 120,471
Total	6,207,002
Agricultural stabilization board payments on pork-nil.



PERSONAL HISTORY FORM

Mr. Knowles: 1.	Has a personal history form, including questions of a personal nature, questions regarding racial origin, questions about parents and other relatives, been circulated among federal civil servants in Winnipeg at any time since August 1, 1962?
2.	Has this form been circulated among federal civil servants in any other places in Canada?
3.	Who authorized or approved the circulation of this form?
4.	Are federal civil servants required to complete this form and, if so, by what authority?
5.	Has this form been examined in the light of
(a)	the Canadian Bill of Rights and (b) the Canada Fair Employment Practices Act?
Answer by: Mr. Diefenbaker:
1, 2, 3 and 4. The form referred to is one used by departments of government in accordance with directives by the government in 1948, 1952 and 1955 to secure the information necessary for security investigations of employees being given access to classified

information. A recent review of the use of this form has led to the conclusion that some of the information sought, particularly that concerning racial origin, is not necessary. A new form is therefore being prepared at present and will be reviewed by the government in the near future.
5.	Yes.



INCOME TAX ON HOME MORTGAGE INTEREST

Mr. Mather: 1.	Is the government aware of the policy in force in the United States whereby the interest portion of home mortgage payments is exempt from income taxation?
2.	Will the government consider implementing a similar policy in Canada?
Answer by: Mr. Grafftey:
1.	Yes, the government is aware of the policy in the United States to which the question refers.
2.	This is a budgetary matter and, along with other recommendations which have been received, will be given due consideration in that connection.



*FARM LOAN APPLICATIONS, CHAMBLY-ROUVILLE, QUE.

Mr. Pilon: 1.	How many applications for farm loans have been made in the county of Chambly-Rouville from 1958 to 1962?
2.	What are the names of the applicants, and the amounts of the loans granted?
3.	How many applications were turned down? (Giving the names of the applicants and the reasons for such refusals).


Warner Herbert Jorgenson: 1.	24.
2.	Because of the confidential nature of the
Farm Credit Corporation's business dealings with individual farmers, it is not considered in the public interest to divulge the names of applicants and borrowers. However, loans have been approved in the following amounts: $8,250; $10,400; $10,000; $20,000; $13,000;	$9,000; $20,000; $11,000; $25,000;
$20,000;	$27,500; $3,000;	$14,100;	$27,500;
$12,700; $22,000 and $27,500 for a total of $280,950.
3.	7-with regard to the names of the applicants, see 2 above. Three applications were declined because, in the judgment of the corporation, the applicants would not have sufficient revenue after paying operating, maintenance and living costs to repay the loans. Two applications were declined because the applicants did not have sufficient equity in the proposed farming enterprise; and two applications were declined due to excessive debts of the applicants.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. Knowles: 1.	Are any departments of the federal government making surveys or studies of the effects upon animals, fish, and birds of insecticide spraying and, if so, what departments are making such surveys or studies?
2.	What results have been obtained from such surveys or studies, and are there available any reports or documents containing such results?
3.	What powers are possessed by the government for the control or regulation of Insecticide spraying, and in what ways, and to what extent, are such powers being used?



REVELSTOKE NATIONAL PARK


Mr. Herridge: 1.	What are the names, annual salaries, and expenses of the superintendent and administrative staff of Revelstoke national park for the fiscal year 1960-61?
2.	Were houses built for the superintendent and administrative staff; and, if so (a) what is their number (b) what is the average size in floor space
(c)	what was their average cost per square foot of floor space (d) what was the cost of landscaping per house (e) what was the cost in the fiscal year 1960-61 of providing for each house: <i) (ii) coal (iii) wood (iv) gas (v) light and water? (Answers for (b) to (e) are required broken down into (1) superintendent (2) other administrative staff).
3.	What is the size of the paving blocks from the superintendent's house to the street, and what was the cost per block?
4.	How many passenger cars and other vehicles were used by the superintendent and staff in Revelstoke park in the fiscal year 1980-61?
5.	What was the cost of operation per vehicle in the fiscal year 1960-61?
6.	What were the regulations for use of vehicles by the staff in off-duty hours in the fiscal year 1960-61?
7.	What was the inventory of the road and other machinery located and used at Revelstoke park in the fiscal year 1960-61?
8.	What was the cost of repairs and fuel for these vehicles for operation of the machinery during the fiscal year 1960-61?
9.	Have any of the park employees been employed on projects undertaken by contracts in the fiscal year 1960-61?



CANADIAN INVESTMENT IN JAMAICA

Mr. Herridge: Have any requests been received from the Jamaican government for increased Canadian investment in Jamaica and, if so, what answer has been given, and what encouragement, if any, has the government offered to private investors?



AIR DEFENCE EXERCISE, LABOUR DAY

Mr. Herridge: Was an alleged air defence exercise held on Labour Day, September 3, 1962, and, if so, (a) why was this date chosen (b) have any protests been received concerning the choice of the date or about the exercise itself and, if so, (1) from whom (ii) what was their nature (iii) what were the government's replies (c) what was the strength
Orders for Returns
of the exercise attack force in (i) bombers, real or simulated (ii) simulated ICBMs (iii) simulated missiles fired from submarines (d) how many simulated bombs, ICBMs, and submarine missiles were reckoned to have (i) exploded on target (ii) exploded off target (iii) been destroyed without harm to North America?


Alfred Dryden Hales: Order for return.


John Whitney Pickersgill: This is a starred question.


Mr. Speaker:: Insofar as a starred question is concerned, it was settled during the time of my predecessor that, notwithstanding the fact that a starred question appeared on the order paper, it was in order to have it made an order for return.



DIRECTORSHIPS OF CABINET MINISTERS

Mr. Knowles: 1.	Are any cabinet ministers directors of any companies, corporations, etc., and, if so, which ministers, of what companies or corporations are they directors, and at what date were any directorships presently held by such cabinet ministers assumed?
2.	Have any cabinet ministers resigned any directorships since being sworn of the privy council and, if so, which ministers, on what dates, and from what companies or corporations?



HOSPITAL EMPLOYEES, WORKING HOURS, ETC.

Mr. Macnaughlon: 1.	What is the annual wage bill for all hospital employees in Canada (a) general hospitals (b) mental hospitals?
2.	What is the total number of employees working in hospitals in Canada (a) general hospitals
(b)	mental hospitals?
3.	What is the number of employees per bed working in hospitals in Canada (a) general hospitals (b) mental hospitals?
4.	What was the estimated amount being spent in 1959, 1960, and 1961, on the construction of hospitals (a) general hospitals (b) mental hospitals; and, how much of this was contributed by the federal government?
5.	How does the average hourly rate for general
employees in hospitals compare with the average hourly rate in the transportation industry, the primary and secondary industries?
6.	What is the comparison of wages paid to (a) nurses (b) social workers (c) psychologists (d) nursing assistants (e) cleaners (f) kitchen staff, in federal hospitals as compared with community hospitals?



* HAWKER SIDDELEY LTD., N.S.  FEDERAL ASSISTANCE FOR COAL OPERATIONS

Mr. Maclnnis: Did the federal government of Canada offer any financial assistance to Hawker Siddeley of Canada Limited, or to any of its branches or subsidiaries, with a view to the company continuing further operations at No. 16 colliery in New Waterford and, if so, what was the amount of the assistance offered by the government to this corporation?



* HAWKER SIDDELEY LTD., N.S.    CLOSURE OF NO. 16 COLLIERY

Mr. Maclnnis: Did representatives of Hawker Siddeley of Canada
Limned, or representatives of any subsidiary or

Orders for Returns
branch of this corporation, ask the government of Canada for financial assistance in order to forestall the recent closure of No. 16 colliery in New Waterford and, if so, how much assistance was the company seeking from the federal government?



* AMALGAMATION OF T.C.A. AND C.P.A.

Mr. Fisher: Has the Minister of Transport or any other minister made any public statements since April 19, 1962, on the subject of an amalgamation or co-working Trans-Canada Air Lines and Canadian Pacific Airlines and, if so, when, where, and to what general effect?



CONSTRUCTION PROJECTS CANCELLED OR POSTPONED

Mr. Knowles: 1.	Since June 18, 1962, how many construction projects have been (a) cancelled, or (b) postponed, by the federal government or by any department or agency thereof?
2.	Where was each such project to have been constructed? What was the estimated cost of each such project?
3.	Have any construction projects which were cancelled or postponed subsequent to June 18, 1962, been reinstated? If so, which ones, what is their location, and their estimated cost?



* CANADIAN SHIPS IN RUSSIA-CUBA TRADE

Mr. Chevrier: 1.	How many deep sea vessels flying the British flag are still owned by Canadian residents?
2.	Are these ships considered as a Canadian contribution to any allied shipping pool arrangement that may be set up in an emergency?
3.	How many of these vessels have been trading between ports of the Soviet Union and Cuba?
4.	Do the owners of these ships or any companies owning them pay income tax to the federal treasury?



*C.B.C. BUILDINGS, MONTREAL

Mr. Rinfrei: 1.	Have the city of Montreal, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, and the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation accepted the plan for the C.B.C. buildings to be erected in Montreal between Papineau, Dorchester, Craig, and Amherst streets?
2.	Was the said plan submitted to the government, and on what date?
3.	Will the proprietors, tenants, merchants, and industrialists of this area be informed in the near future of the government's decision with respect thereto?
4.	What period of time will be given to the residents of this area for eviction purposes?
^NATIONAL PARKS, N.S.-PAY INCREASES

Question No. 69-Mr. MacEachen:
1.	Has a pay increase been authorized for employees at Cape Breton Highlands park and at the national park at Louisbourg?
2.	If so, what is (a) the new rate (b) the former rate, for each classification for which an increase was authorized?
3.	What accounts for the difference, if any, in the increase authorized for the employees as between the two parks?
[Mr. Maclnnis.j



*COST OF DAWSON CITY FESTIVAL

Mr. McMillan: 1.	What were the total costs to the federal treasury for the Dawson city festival including (a) grants to the festival (b) the cost of reconstruction and renovation of all such buildings as the mortuary, two old saloons, and Arizona Charlie's Palace Grand, and (c) all other federal expenses connected with the festival, including the cost of the dedication ceremonies, etc.?
2.	Did the governments of the Northwest Territories and the Yukon Territory make any contributions in connection with the preparation and holding of the festival? If so, how much?



* EXPENDITURES ON CAUSES AND CURES OF ALCOHOLISM

Mr. Prittie: 1.	Does the federal government spend money directly or indirectly on research into the causes of and cures for alcoholism?
2.	If so, what agencies receive these moneys, and what amounts were allocated for this purpose in 1960, 1961 and 1962?



NEW WESTMINSTER


[Stage Direction]
Question No. 78
Mr. Mather:: Since June 17, 1962, what construction projects have been (a) cancelled, or (b) postponed, in New Westminster constituency areas including Langley, Surrey and Delta municipalities, New Westminster, Langley and White Rock cities; and, what is the estimated cost of the (a) cancelled or (b) postponed projects?
^FEDERAL APPOINTMENTS OF DEFEATED CANDIDATES


Mr. Knowles: 1.	How many persons who were candidates in the federal election of June 18, 1962, and were defeated, have since that date been appointed by the federal government to positions to which emoluments are attached?
2.	What are the names of all such persons?
3.	What are their positions, and what are their emoluments?


Mr. Bell (Carleton):: Order for return.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Is this list too long to give to the house? Surely it is just a short list.


Douglas Scott Harkness: You are out of order.


Stanley Howard Knowles: On a point of order, what is the reason for asking that this be made an order for return?


Mr. Speaker:: The minister who replies has the prerogative of indicating whether a question will be answered or made an order for return.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I should like to say a word on the point of order which was raised by the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre. This afternoon there has obviously been a systematic attempt on the part of ministers to make orders for returns of embarrassing starred questions, including this one.


Some hon. Members:: Order.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I suggest that the privileges of all hon. members who are not in the ministry are involved in this practice. Hon. members have the right to put starred questions on the order paper because they want to draw attention to the activities of the government, which is responsible to this house, and it seems to me that the circumventing of the rules which is going on at the present time should be protested.


An hon. Member:: Defying the Speaker.


Mr. Speaker:: In reply to the question raised by the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre and the subsequent comment by the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillin-gate, may I refer to Hansard of Thursday, February 26,	1959 when Mr. Speaker
Michener, before calling orders of the day, sought to clarify a point on which he had made a ruling on the previous day. I now refer to this ruling. He said:
At the foot of page 1367, the first column, I commented on the procedure in asking that written or starred questions be made orders for returns, and I think I incorrectly stated the effect of the rule- incidentally the rule is No. 39, clause 5-when I said: It is so ordered, then, that this question be made an order for return. Consent of the house is not necessary.
The rule, as hon. members will see, says that the minister having expressed a willingness to lay a return upon the table, his statement shall, unless otherwise ordered by the house, be deemed an order of the house. I did not want the record to be erroneous in the conclusion as to the effect of rule 39.
Another point on the same rule was raised by the hon. member for Laurier, who suggested that a starred question could not be made an order for return under this rule. I find I was correct in rejecting that view. The authority for so doing is the report of the special committee appointed to consider with Mr. Speaker the procedure of the House of Commons. Their report, dated Tuesday, June 14. 1955, which was accepted by the house, states that clause 5 of rule 39 contains a consequential amendment in respect of questions, starred and unstarred, passed as orders for returns. This would clear up that point.


An hon. Member:: A lot of hot air.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


An hon. Member:: It was all a lot of hot air.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Concealing the record.


Gordon Minto Churchill: On a question of privilege, we have just had an interruption from the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate accusing us of concealing the record. Earlier he said there was a deliberate attempt-a systematic attempt-to circumvent the rule. Your Honour has just disclosed that the rule has been observed by the members on the government side. I would therefore ask the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate to withdraw his statement.
Orders for Returns


Mr. Speaker:: I would hope that the hon. gentleman did not deliberately mean that the government-


Some hon. Members:: Yes, he did.


Mr. Fleming (Eglinton):: He said "systematically".


Mr. Speaker:: -was concealing the record. If I am correct in that-and I would like his assurance in that regard-I think we could proceed. The matter is quite clear. This rule was passed in the year 1955 or thereabouts and we have a ruling as of 1959, which is of comparatively recent date. I asked the hon. member for his assurance that he did not deliberately-


John Whitney Pickersgill: I am sorry, sir, but I cannot hear.


Mr. Speaker:: I trust the hon. member did not imply by his remarks, which we know were made in free exchange in this house, that the government was deliberately withholding information from this house.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I made no imputation against any individual member of the house. As I understand the rules, it is perfectly in order for a member of the opposition to imply that the government collectively has concealed things, as was done on January 20, 1958 by the right hon. gentleman who now leads this house.


Mr. Speaker:: I would point out to the hon. member that it is not within the privileges or rights of members of this house under the rules to comment on the nature of an answer that is given to a question. We shall leave it at that.



* DISPOSAL OP RADIOACTIVE WASTE

Mr. Herridge: 1.	Was there a meeting in Ottawa in the summer of 1962 concerning the disposal of radioactive wastes, including disposal in the ocean and, if so, what were its findings?
2.	Has the government considered the report of the ad hoc panel of the international atomic energy agency with regard to disposal of radioactive wastes?
3.	Has the government any knowledge as to whether any dumping of radioactive wastes has taken place at a dumping site 150 to 200 miles south of Yarmouth during 1960 or to date and, if so, is this site still considered a possible dumping area by the U.S. atomic energy commission?
4.	Has the government any knowledge of the official views of Britain, France, and the U.S.S.R. with regard to disposal of radioactive wastes in the ocean and, if so, what are they?



* UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE BENEFITS TO CANADIAN LUMBERMEN IN MAINE

Mr. Cook: What stage has been reached in the negotiations towards making Canadian lumbermen, who have

Orders for Returns
worked in the state of Maine, eligible for unemployment insurance benefits when they are out of work?


Alfred Dryden Hales: Tabled herewith.



GEORGE M. HUMPHREY  REQUEST FOR INFORMA- TION BY U.S. COMMITTEE

Mr. Fisher: 1.	Has the government received any requests for information or assistance from the U.S. senate armed services committee or one of its subcommittees about the operations in Canada of Mr. George M. Humphrey in the mining and metal industry or about any of the companies operating in Canada with which Mr. Humphrey is associated as an official or director?
2.	If so, what response has it made?



MILITARY FORCE TO FIGHT FOREST FIRES

Mr. Fisher: 1.	What steps, if any, has the government taken to develop, in the various arms of the Canadian military, a trained and equipped force to battle forest fires in Canada?
2.	In brief form, what are the requirements in terms of request and seriousness of the situation before such a force is brought into action?
3.	What system of cost sharing or payment has been worked out to cover the use of such a force within a provincial jurisdiction?
^GOVERNMENT BORROWINGS SINCE JUNE, 1962

Question No. 132-Mr. Cote:
What is the amount borrowed by the Canadian government since June 18, 1962, including treasury bills, bond issues, loans from commercial banks and sources outside Canada, together with the average interest rate?


William Heward Grafftey: Return tabled. *



*BUTTER SALES, EXPORTS AND STORAGE COSTS

Mr. Pennell: 1.	What volume of butter oil and/or butter stock was sold in the period January 1 to September 1, 1962?
2.	How much butter oil or butter stock is now held in storage, and what is its approximate value?
3.	Wnat has been the total storage cost for butter oil and/or butter stock in (a) 1958 (b) 1959 (c) 1960 (d) 1961 (e) 1962?
4.	What was the volume of butter oil and/or butter stock exported in (a) 1958 (b) 1959 (c) 1960
(d)	1961 (e) 1962?
5.	To what country was the largest volume exported?
6.	What three countries were the largest importers of our butter stock?
He said: In view of the answer given to question No. 109, Mr. Speaker, I would ask leave to withdraw this question save part 3.


George Ernest Halpenny: Order for return with regard to part 3.


Mr. Speaker:: Order for return as to part 3. The remainder of the question is withdrawn.



ECONOMIC ASSISTANCE TO SOUTH AMERICA

Mr. Barnett: 1.	Is any economic assistance to the countries of South America being provided by the government of Canada, either directly or indirectly, through agencies of the United Nations or otherwise?
2.	If so, to what countries is this economic assistance being provided, in what amounts, and for what periods?
3.	Through what department or departments of the federal government is any such assistance being provided?
4.	If assistance is being provided indirectly through agencies of the United Nations or otherwise, through what agencies, to what countries, and in what amounts?
5.	If assistance is being provided for specific projects, what are those projects and for the benefit of what countries?
^PARENT, QUE.



PAVING AND SEWER


Mr. Laprise: 1.	Did the Department of National Defence pay the full cost of the one mile paving and sewer construction on Main and St. Andrew streets in the municipality of Parent, which was awarded to Paquin Construction Company, Limited of Val d'Or, Quebec, during 1959?
2.	If not, what percentage of the cost was paid by the department, and who was responsible for payment of the remainder?
3.	Have any claims been received by the department from any resident of Parent for damages caused by the installation of the sewer?


Mr. Sevigny:: Return tabled.



*A. S. WHITELEY

Mr. Lewis: 1.	When did Mr. A. S. Whiteley first join the civil service and in what capacity, and what positions did he hold from that date until appointed a member of the restrictive trade practices commission, with particular reference to his services in connection with the price spreads inquiry, the royal commission on the textile industry, the combines investigation commission, and the wartime prices and trade board?
2.	Has Mr. A. S. Whiteley represented Canada at any international conferences or other meetings and, more particularly, in connection with restrictive business or trade practices, and, if so, what were such conferences or meetings and the dates thereof?


Mr. Bell (Saint John-Albert):: Return tabled.



*U.S. TRADE EXPANSION ACT

Mr. Addison: Has the government or any of its officials engaged in discussion with the United States government with respect to the possible effect of the United States trade expansion act on Canadian trade and, if so, what Canadian officials have taken part and when were these discussions held?



U.S. FRUITS AND VEGETABLES IMPORTED INTO B.C.

Mr. Maiher: 1. In connection with the import of fruits and vegetables from the United States into British

Columbia, what volume in millions of pounds of the following produce was imported during 1961 and to date in 1962: (a) apples (fresh) (b) peaches (fresh) (c) tomatoes (fresh) (d) strawberries (fresh) (e) carrots (f) onions (g) potatoes (h) tomatoes (canned) ?
2. How many processing and canning plants in the Okanagan area of British Columbia in the past ten years have been bought out by United States firms and closed down?



EXPORTS AND DELIVERIES OF GRAIN

Mr. Cantin: 1.	What quantities of grains have been exported through each of the harbours of Vancouver-New Westminster, Victoria, Prince Rupert. Churchill, Port William-Port Arthur, Toronto, Kingston, Montreal, Sorel, Trois-Rivieres, Quebec, Baie Comeau, Saint John, West Saint John, and Halifax, for the crop year 1960-61 for (a) wheat (b) oats
(c)	barley (d) rye (e) flax (f) total?
2.	What quantities of the above grains have been delivered for domestic use, during each of the eleven crop years from 1950-51 to 1960-61 inclusive (a) in each of the said harbours (b) in each of the other places in Canada not included above?



PUBLIC SERVICE LAY-OFFS OR DISMISSALS

Mr. McWilliam: Have any employees of the different departments of government and crown companies been temporarily laid off or dismissed since June 1, 1962, and, if so, what number in each department, and in each crown corporation?



* REDUCTIONS IN 1962-63 ESTIMATES

Mr. Pickersgill: 1.	Was any decision made before June 18, 1962, to reduce any of the regular estimates for the fiscal year 1962-63 laid before the last parliament and, if so, on what date was such a decision made, and what total sum was involved?
2.	Was the national research council asked to make any reduction in its estimates?



*ARMED FORCES


Mr. Ouellel: 1.	What is the annual cost of all our armed forces serving in Canada and outside Canada?
2.	What annual amount is paid for pensions to veterans of the first world war, and to widows and dependants of servicemen of the second world war?



FEDERAL, PROVINCIAL AND OTHER DEBTS

Mr. Oueliet: 1.	What is the amount of the gross national debt?
2.	What is the amount owed by the provinces?
3.	What is the amount owed by the Canadian cities and municipalities?
4.	What is the amount owed by all the school boards of this country?
5.	What is the amount owed by the private individuals of this country to the finance corporations?



GLOUCESTER COUNTY, N.B.    RECIPIENTS OF ASSISTANCE AND UNEMPLOYED

Mr. Robichaud: 1. As of March 31, 1962, in Gloucester county, N.B. (a) what was the total number of persons receiving social assistance benefits (b) what was
Inquiries of the Ministry the total number of recipients of unemployment insurance benefits (c) what was the total number of persons registered as unemployed?
2. As of August 31, 1962, in Gloucester county, N.B. (a) what was the total number of persons receiving social assistance benefits (b) what was the total number of recipients of unemployment insurance benefits (c) what was the total number of persons registered as unemployed?



DAIRY PRODUCTS


Mr. Clerm_~*-: 1.	In 1962, what have been, each mv,.:th, the quantities purchased and sold by the government of (a) whole milk in powder form (b) butter 'c) cheese?
2.	For 1962, have any gifts of dairy products been made to UNICEF or to other welfare groups and, if so (a) what are those products (b) in what quantities?



JOINT FORESTRY PROGRAMS WITH QUEBEC

Mr. Clermont: Since June 30, 1958, has the government of the province of Quebec made any agreements providing for joint forestry programs with the Department of Forestry, the Department of Agriculture, or the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources and, if so, what are those joint programs, and what amounts have been paid to the province with respect thereto?



BUTTER PRODUCTION AND CONSUMPTION

Mr. Clermont: During the first nine months of the years 1961 and 1962 (a) what has been the production of butter in Canada (b) what has been the consumption of butter (c) what amount of premium has the government paid on the said consumption?



LABOUR RELATIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. A. Byrne (Kootenay East):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce. Having regard to the report of the labour-management-government mission to Europe indicating the remarkable success of such a tripartite council, will the minister inform the house if the government did consider supporting such a council financed by all three groups, as indicated by a press report last Friday?


Hon. George H. Hees (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: Mr. Speaker, this government has been very interested in the matter and has taken active steps to try to help promote better labour-management-government co-operation within this country. We are continuing to pursue every possible avenue of approach to engender better labour-management-government co-operation for the good of all Canadians.

Inquiries of the Ministry


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: A supplementary question-


Mr. Martin (Essex East):: May I ask a supplementary question of the Minister of Labour?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member for Kootenay East has a supplementary question.


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: Would the minister care to comment on the press statement that this council was blocked about 18 months ago?


William Moore Benidickson: By the minister.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I believe the hon. member must realize it is not the practice in this house to ask a minister to comment on this or that press report.


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: May I ask the minister if the cabinet blocked such a development some 18 months ago?


George Harris Hees: On a number of occasions the government has discussed with representatives of labour and management the best medium through which better management-labour relations could be brought about, and it has always been the considered opinion of this government that the medium through which such better relations can be brought about is the national productivity council.


Mr. T. R. Berger (Vancouver-Burrard):: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of Labour, of which I have given him notice. Did the government decline to proceed with the establishment of a permanent council on economic problems, consisting of representatives of labour, management and the government, following a meeting of representatives of labour, management and the government in Ottawa on March 15, 1961 convened at the invitation of the Minister of Trade and Commerce and the Minister of Labour?


Michael Starr: Mr. Speaker, the meeting held in Ottawa on March 15, 1961 was called primarily for the purpose of fostering improved relations between government, management and labour and was not for the purpose of establishing a permanent council on economic problems. Neither I nor my colleague have ever opposed or blocked labour-management-government co-operation. On the contrary, we have encouraged and promoted it, as was said a few moments ago.
May I say, in addition, that labour and management are free at all times to meet to iron out their differences and to develop joint steps to deal with their problems.


Paul Joseph James Martin: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. In view of


the minister's reply, may I ask him whether the government is now prepared to act upon the well known recommendation made by the government's special commission to Europe which examined into labour-management-government co-operation and recommended that a similar course and plan be pursued in Canada with regard to these three groups?


Michael Starr: Mr. Speaker, that recommendation is before the government for consideration at the moment.



NATIONAL DEFENCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Colin Cameron (Nanaimo-Cowichan-The Islands):: I wish to direct a question to the Minister of National Defence arising out of a communication I received this morning which informs me that there has been posted in the dockyard at Esquimalt, sections of the civilian personnel administrative and accounting manual which prohibit civilian employees from contributing, receiving or in any way dealing with any money for funds for any political party, and prohibits them from engaging in partisan work during elections. I would like the minister to examine these regulations to see if they contravene the bill of rights.


Douglas Scott Harkness: I am not familiar with the matter, but if I am to understand that these orders are to prohibit solicitation of funds for political purposes at H.M.C. Dockyard at Esquimalt, then I would think that is a very wise move.


Colin Cameron: May I inform the minister that he has not taken my question correctly.


Mr. Speaker:: The only matter which the hon. member has raised-


Colin Cameron: If I may ask a supplementary to the question?


Mr. Speaker:: If it is a proper supplementary.


Colin Cameron: They prohibit any civilian employee from contributing to any funds of any political party, on and off the premises, or taking part in any partisan activity on and off the premises.


Douglas Scott Harkness: I would hesitate to accept the interpretation which the hon. member puts on the orders. However, I shall be glad to have a look taken at them.



THE BUDGET


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Walter L. Gordon (Davenport):: I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Finance. In view of public uncertainty concerning the government's plans for dealing with Canada's long term financial and economic problems, will the minister say if, and if so when, a budget will be presented to this house?


Hon. George C. Nowlan (Minister of Finance):: Mr. Speaker, a budget will be presented to this house. In the notice of his question which the hon. member sent me he said "a complete budget." I presume by that he means a final budget, and obviously information has to be gathered with respect to the next year before that can be done. But a budget will be brought into the house, and I think I can say it will be introduced at a rather earlier date than has happened in previous years, at least in the years I have been here.


Walter Lockhart Gordon: In order to clear up any possibility of misunderstanding may I ask the Minister of Finance, if I am correct in interpreting his reply to my last question to mean a budget will not be presented before the Christmas recess?


George Clyde Nowlan: Mr. Speaker, I am not in a position to say. I said it will be brought down earlier than before.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of Finance to clarify the two answers he has given to the hon. member for Davenport. When the minister presents the budget that he referred to will it be a budget presentation of the kind that permits a six day debate, or will it be simply taking the resolutions straight into committee of ways and means?


George Clyde Nowlan: Obviously, Mr. Speaker, a complete and full budget will require a six day debate.
Inquiries of the Ministry TRANSPORT



MARITIMES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Robert Muir (Cape Breton North and Victoria):: I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Transport. Can the minister advise the house regarding rumours of the establishment of a satellite tracking centre in the Atlantic provinces?


Hon. Leon Balcer (Minister of Transport):: Mr. Speaker, negotiations are at present under way with the United States government regarding the possible establishment of a meteorological ground satellite communication centre in the Atlantic provinces. Inasmuch as those negotiations are not yet concluded it is impossible to comment on the press report mentioned.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. E. Brown (Braniford):: I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Labour. Has the government any plan for the reemployment of the 250 employees thrown out of work by the closing of the Canadian Celanese Limited plant at Brantford, Ontario, announced last week?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I think the hon.
member will recognize that his question does not belong on orders of the day, but is more appropriate to the order paper.



CLOSING OF OFFICES IN FAR EAST

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Hubert Badanai (Fort William):: I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce. Can the minister inform the house why trade offices in Teheran, Iran and Indonesia are being closed?


George Harris Hees: Mr. Speaker, from time to time trade offices in various parts of the world are opened and others closed. They are opened if we believe there is sufficient trade in any area to justify the expense of operating such an office. At such time when it appears that the potential business does not justify the maintenance of an office in a certain area, then in the interests of good economy that office is closed.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I wish to raise a point of order with respect to the answer just given

Inquiries of the Ministry by the Minister of Trade and Commerce. I submit to Your Honour, most respectfully, that if the question about the closing of an office in Persia is in order then surely a question about 250 Canadians being thrown out of work, as asked by the hon. member for Brantford, should also be in order.


Mr. Speaker:: In reply to the point of order, it may be pointed out from time to time that various plants are closed for one purpose or another in various parts of the country, and we cannot spend a great deal of time on orders of the day trying to elicit replies about such plants. On the other hand I allowed the question by the hon. member for Fort William because it deals with Canada's external relations and I gave it the benefit of the doubt. It is of some national interest.



BRITISH COLUMBIA


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. R. W. Prittie (Burnaby-Richmond):: wish to direct a question to the Prime Minister. Has the federal government received any request to declare any section of the British Columbia coast a disaster area and, if so, will he assure the house that such a request will be granted?


John George Diefenbaker: In reply to the first part of the question, no request has been received. While the government has every sympathy for the families who have lost loved ones, and for those who have suffered property damage, the rules in this connection are very clear and definite. They represent principles which have been generally followed throughout the years.
The damage done must be beyond the competence of the provincial or municipal authorities to handle. The financial loss must be of such a magnitude as to be beyond their financial resources, and furthermore an application must be made by the provincial government for assistance. No request has been made and I think I can go no further than simply point out what are the rules in regard to disasters such as that referred to by the hon. gentleman.


Mr. T. S. Barnett (Comox-Albemi):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Public Works. Would the minister inform the house whether any installations of the federal Department of Public Works were damaged in the recent storms in British Columbia; and if so, what is the nature and extent of the damage?


Robert Jardine McCleave: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Public Works is currently in British Columbia. The department, following its normal practice, has been receiving reports on the damage which has occurred there. We will not be in a position for a few days to give the full extent of the damage, but a recognized policy of emergency repair will be carried out there, as it is in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick which were recently hit by hurricane Daisy.



IMMIGRATION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. W. H. A. Thomas (Middlesex West):: wish to direct a question to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration. Has any decision been reached concerning an increase in the quota of refugees from Hong Kong who may be granted permission to come to Canada?


Richard Albert Bell: Not as yet, Mr. Speaker. As I have already indicated to the house we expect that the present refugee movement will be completed by the end of November. At that time consideration will be given to the advisability of continuing further movements of Chinese refugees as a separate refugee movement. It should be borne in mind, in this connection, that under the new immigration regulations anyone, including refugees in Hong Kong, may apply for admission to Canada and it is expected that, because of this fact, further numbers of the refugees will be found admissible and will be enabled to come forward in the normal immigration stream.



AGRICULTURE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. A. J. MacEachen (Inverness-Rich-mond):: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture? I wonder whether the minister has had a chance since last Friday to check into the matter of feed supplies in the maritimes, and whether his investigation may have resulted in a decision to continue the corn subsidy.


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: Mr. Speaker, my officials are looking into this matter again, but they have not informed me of any new information. The last information was that there were supplies

up to three and a half months. That was at the time I made an announcement in the house.


Mr. E. F. Whelan (Essex South):: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. I should at this time like to ask the Minister of Agriculture whether he is aware that corn growers in southwestern Ontario shipped corn to the maritimes before, and they were the ones who suggested the subsidy on the corn being shipped to the maritimes. I wonder if that will be considered in the present study.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Order.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. This is hardly a true supplementary.


Mr.   Marlin@Essex East: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order-


Gordon Minto Churchill: The hon. member was
making a speech.


Mr.   Marlin@Essex Easl: -surely the hon. member, who is a new member, has put a statement which obviously was intended to be in the form of a question, and should be allowed. The hon. member is simply asking why this provision does not extend to corn growers in southwestern Ontario as well as to United States corn growers. Surely that is a perfectly permissible question, asking for clarification?


Mr. Speaker:: Perhaps it would have been a good question, put by the hon. member for Essex East as a straightforward, independent question; but as a supplementary question I do not think it fits into the pattern as it should.


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege. The hon. member for Essex East made a flat statement that the subsidy was on United States corn. I must correct that at this time.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I would suggest to hon. members on both sides of the house that the matter of rising on questions of privilege is rather rare. They should be questions of privilege, and not merely an attempt to contradict someone else.



VALUE FOR DUTY ON U.S. POTATO IMPORTS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Arthur Laing (Vancouver Soulh):: Mr. Speaker, may I address a question to the Minister of Agriculture, of which I served him notice. Is it true that an arbitrary value for duty purposes has been placed against United States potatoes?


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: No, Mr. Speaker.
Inquiries of the Ministry NORTHERN AFFAIRS



WHOOPING CRANES-PRESERVATION OF NESTING GROUNDS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Speaker, I wish to ask the well known nature lover, the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources, a question. I trust you do not think I am whooping it up improperly now.
In view of reports that high water in Wood Buffalo national park may have inhibited the spring nesting of our whooping cranes, with a consequent apparently serious reduction in their numbers, and in view of the considerable public interest in this matter, would the minister assure the house that he will take steps, such as flood control, to ensure that the cranes may nest successfully in future?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. Bearing in mind that I suppose some five or six months must elapse between now and nesting time I feel that perhaps the hon. member and the birds may have some difference of opinion as to the urgency of the situation when it comes to nesting.



DAWSON, Y.T.    FURTHER FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE TO FESTIVAL

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. J. Robichaud (Gloucester):: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources? My question is based on the answer I received from the minister to my starred question No. 96, asking whether any entertaining troupe or group was invited to take part in the Dawson City festival by the Dawson City festival committee?
Can the minister advise the house whether the government has contributed by grant, subsidy, or loan guarantee to the Northwest Territories council in order to assist in the financing of entertainment at the Dawson City festival?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Mr. Speaker, grants have been made to the festival foundation.



NATIONAL PARKS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. D. M. Fisher (Pori Arthur):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources a question arising from an announcement in the house last Friday that changes in national parks



Export Credits Insurance Act policy are under consideration. Has the minister the intention of bringing the contemplated changes before the mines, forests and waters committee of the house this session to consider the policy he has announced?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Mr. Speaker, no decision has been made in that regard.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Mr. Speaker, in view of the interest and speculation in the matter, can the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources inform the house whether Mr. J. Coleman is still director of national parks in an active capacity?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Yes, Mr. Speaker.



HEALTH AND WELFARE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Frank Howard (Skeena):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Health and Welfare, about which the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration will also be concerned. I wonder whether the attention of the minister has been drawn to an infectious hepatitis outbreak in the community of Telegraph Creek in northern British Columbia; and if so, what steps are being taken to cope with it?


Jay Waldo Monteith: Mr. Speaker, my attention has not been drawn to this particular outbreak, but I will be glad to look into the matter for the hon. member.



EXPORT CREDITS INSURANCE ACT


George Harris Hees: the second reading of Bill No. C-63, to amend the Export Credits Insurance Act.
He said: Mr. Speaker, following discussions which took place last Friday concerning the resolution, we have been able to incorporate in the present bill the very good suggestion made by the hon. member for Ottawa West (Mr. Mcllraith). In order to make it abundantly clear that the maximum liability the corporation may assume under section 14 is limited to $200 million, that is, ten times the paid-up capital and the surplus of the corporation, it is proposed that the word "capital" be inserted before the word "surplus" so that the section will then read:
14. The liability of the corporation under the contracts of insurance issued and outstanding shall not at any time exceed a total of ten times the aggregate of the amount of the subscribed capital and the capital surplus of the corporation.

On Friday we had a good and thorough discussion on the resolution stage. I had intended to make some further remarks at this time, on the opening of the debate on second reading, but looking them over I find they were all dealt with by the questions asked on the resolution stage and the answers I gave then. Therefore, I have nothing more to say at this point, though if hon. members have further questions to ask I shall be glad to try to answer them.


Hazen Robert Argue: The bill now before us follows the lines discussed during the resolution stage. I believe that over the years the Export Credits Insurance Act has commended itself to members of this house. The Minister of Trade and Commerce was good enough last Friday to give us a comprehensive statement concerning the commodities whose export is being financed under this act-the quantities of certain commodities now covered and the value of certain commodities whose sale is being negotiated at the present time. This particular measure provides for the financing, among other things, of sales of large quantities of wheat to various countries, mainly, though not exclusively, communist countries.
The whole question of Canada's policy with regard to the export of wheat to China, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Poland and so on has been discussed many times in this house. I would say that in all those discussions the financing of sales of this kind has had the full support of members of the house on both sides. Certainly, one would expect the official opposition to support this measure-as it does-because it is one of those acts which was brought in by a Liberal government and which was used by a Liberal government under the late Mr. C. D. Howe to pioneer in the field of financing credit sales of wheat to iron curtain countries.
This is chamber of minorities. Though we have not been able to detect it in the house to date, nevertheless there have been many statements made outside the house by members of the Social Credit party exceedingly critical of the kind of financing which has been carried out under this measure in connection with the export of wheat. I have in mind a statement issued by the leader of the Social Credit party which was reported on May 22 in the Saskatoon Star-Phoenix:
Selling wheat to China was the most irresponsible act of any government since confederation, national Social Credit leader. Dr. Robert N. Thompson, charged Monday night. "If the wheat was actually filling the empty bellies Mr. Diefenbaker talks about, there might be some excuse, but what consideration has he given to empty bellies in countries as yet uncommitted to communism?"

And so on. The leader of the Social Credit party was very active during the recent election campaign going back and forth across this country criticizing the wheat sales to China. I have in my hand a clipping from the Toronto Telegram of May 18. The heading reads: "Thompson Flays Grain Sales" and the report, datelined Niagara Falls contains this paragraph:
He quoted Lenin as saying that when communism is ready to hang capitalism, the capitalist countries will fight among themselves to see who sells the hanging rope.
I do not know if that rope is supposed to be the wheat but I suppose it is. I have many other newspaper clippings. A headline in the Calgary Herald reads: "Red Sale Hit by S. C. Head"; another in the Saskatoon Star-Phoenix says:	"Selling Wheat to China
claimed Irresponsible". I have in my hand a clipping from the Toronto Star dated June 22, datelined Rouyn, which says:
Twin Social Credit leaders Robert Thompson and Real Caouette joined hands last night to condemn Canada's sale of wheat to red China. Both said they would oppose any move by the federal government to make any more sales.
That seems to make their attitude clear enough. Another article in the Toronto Star of June 23 under a Regina dateline states the following:
Social Credit leader Robert N. Thompson made it clear yesterday his group would balk at wheat or butter sales to communist countries and would attempt to topple the government on this ground.
Well, the Minister of Trade and Commerce made it perfectly clear to us last Friday discussing the resolution that not only had this measure been used in the past in order to help finance sales of wheat to communist countries but that it would be used in the future for the same purpose. I should like to quote from a reply the minister gave as reported on page 456 of Hansard to a question I had asked him; I believe it was I who asked him the question, but it might not have been. In any case, this was the minister's statement:
The hon. member also asked what are the outstanding commitments under section 21 and 21 (a). First of all the commitments under section 21, liability under current policies, are as follows: Yugoslavia. $15.6 million for wheat: Poland, $51 million for wheat . . . United States, $61.8 million for aircraft, making a total of $138.8 million.
Then, Mr. Chairman, our additional outstanding commitments at the present time are $34 million for wheat for Poland; under negotiation or other possible wheat sales amount to $21 million, and for possible aircraft sales to $6 million.
I believe the people of Canada are in favour of sales of this kind-sales of food on credit to nations which have fulfilled the terms of sales which have been made. I am sure that across this nation there is support for sales of this kind whether they be sales
Export Credits Insurance Act of wheat, steel rails or any other commodities which are commodities of peaceful use and cannot be employed in any defence program. I am convinced there is unanimous support for legislation of this kind among grain producers in western Canada of all political parties. I believe that supporters of the Social Credit party, particularly those on the prairies who have wheat to sell, will be very much in favour of the bill which is now before the house, as well as of credit programs of this kind generally. I am pleased to detect what I believe is a complete change of attitude among members of the Social Credit group. I have put on record some of the violent language used in discussing the China wheat sale. I have referred to the stand which has been taken by the leader and deputy leader of that party in regard to the very kind of financing which is provided for under this legislation. The resolution, as far as I can tell, was passed unanimously last Friday. There was not even a voice raised to say: On division. I am encouraged to believe that the members of the Social Credit group are in favour of this legislation now. They have had second thoughts. They have reconsidered their stand and will vote for the bill, just as they voted for the resolution last Friday. Although they have had recent conferences where the whole question has been discussed, they have now reviewed their position-


An hon. Member:: Reversed it.


Hazen Robert Argue: Reviewed and reversed it-and are prepared to support legislation which the minister clearly tells us involves the financing of grain sales to various iron curtain countries.
I have in my hand a report from the Toronto Globe and Mail from Langevin Cote, datelined Three Rivers, Quebec, August 27. It states as follows:
The Quebec Social Credit movement yesterday unanimously opposed trade as Canada now carries it on with communist countries, and said it should be limited to barter exchanges without credit.
Of course, this legislation has nothing to do with barter exchanges and it is based on credit; it is based on the principle that the countries which are purchasing our goods live up to their commitments to make certain payments at certain times. It is a credit transaction that as far as I know-the minister can correct me if I am wrong-has been lived up to by the countries purchasing our grain. The prairie grain producers, people who are interested in Canadian trade, in expanding Canadian trade and in promoting exports of Canadian goods will be very interested to see the attitude of the members of the Social Credit party in this house on second

Export Credits Insurance Act reading. Although they have been very critical of this legislation in the past, I hope that their attitude which they took last Friday means they have reversed their stand, and that this legislation may receive the full support of all parties in this house.


Mr. R. N. Thompson (Red Deer):: Mr. Speaker, one would think from the remarks which have just been made by the hon. member for Assiniboia that this legislation has been brought before us for the purpose only of financing the sale of our exports to communist countries. It has a much broader base than that, unless I am badly mistaken. If the hon. member for Assiniboia would read the copy of Hansard as it records what I said the other day, he would draw very easily my own thoughts in this regard, as I said to the Minister of Trade and Commerce in that I trusted that these credits would be used for the sale of our exports to those countries which are in the immediate area to which we belong and to those which belong to the commonwealth of nations. May I suggest for the benefit of the hon. member for Assiniboia that he knows very well what I said before, but I will say it again so that he understands it without any question. We are not against the sale of our surplus wheat to hungry people who live in countries behind the iron curtain, provided the needs of our friends have been taken care of. That is clear.
What I am concerned about here-and some day the hon. member will look back on what he has said and will think twice about it-is that a moral question is involved which is much deeper than any question of political expediency, or of economic expediency either. The question is whether or not it is advisable for us to be assisting the extension of a way of life that is in bitter contest in the cold war with our own. This is something for every hon. member to think about, because I am convinced that the offensive we face and which stands to threaten our western way of life at this time is an economic one, not military. It is in this regard that we must be very careful about our trade patterns.
What we have said in this house is not a reversal of our stand, because we are practical people, and people must understand that these things are not developed overnight; but also that we must set a principle to follow. In this regard I trust the Minister of Trade and Commerce is making every effort to find markets and to facilitate the sale of our exports to those people who are in equal need with the people behind the iron curtain and who are also hungry, but who are on our side of the fence in this struggle that today reaches right to the very doorstep of this hemisphere.


In this regard I believe that one of the most important things that this house could consider at this time, which I trust the government is doing, is the setting up of a commonwealth trade conference. I know the countries of Africa well. I know the countries of Latin America well. I also know the countries of India and Pakistan, and also of the Middle East. I know that people are starving in those countries today because they have no bread. I trust that the credits which come from a piece of legislation like this will be used to facilitate the sale of wheat to these countries as well.
I also remind my hon. friend from Assiniboia of the fact, that a considerable part of the wheat which we have sold, in the hope that we were reaching the hungry peoples of China, has been used for political purposes. Last Monday I met the new president of the Algerian government at the United Nations, and I was interested to note that only two weeks before, the first shipment of aid to the new country of Algeria there was a gift of Canadian wheat moved into the ports of Algeria in West German boats from China. This is not only true there; it has been true in Korea, in Albania and in other countries. This does not mean to say that the western farmer, or any farmer in Canada, should have his wheat piled up in storage not sold. If the hon. member from Assiniboia would go back and read some of the press clippings he has been talking of now, he would understand, even though he did not belong to the Liberal benches at that time, that the amount of wheat sold in the five years prior to 1957 exceeded the number of bushels of wheat sold in the five years after 1957.


Mr, Horner (Acadia):: That is not true.


Robert Norman Thompson: They are statistics. That is one of the reasons that we in the west today- I am a farmer myself-have found that our granaries are empty, as well as our storage facilities, due to the simple fact that during the last two or three years we have not raised the number of bushels of wheat that we did in previous years. This year we thank God for the fact that there is a bumper crop.
Mr. Speaker, when we vote for a piece of legislation like this it is with the hope that some of these credits will be used for the sale of our agricultural produce to those people who live in countries which are friendly to us and which have need of these things. Yes, we support this piece of legislation, not because we have turned our backs on what we said before, but because in principle the thing is sound. We must be able to finance the export of our surplus farm production to those people who are in need of it

to justify our viewpoint. We do not support the legislation for the reasons the hon. member for Assiniboia has tried to put forward, but we do give it support with this word of caution, and again I repeat it. We must do all in our power to make sure that these credits are used for the export of our surplus production, to the end that they might assist those who are friendly towards us. We also remind the Minister of Trade and Commerce of this fact, that what we are doing now is actually using capital which belongs in the realm of tax capital, or is money borrowed by the government for this purpose. I trust it will not be too long before we can have full consideration to the setting up of an export-import bank which will permit us to finance these sales through the facilities of the Bank of Canada.


Mr. Reid Scott (Danforth):: Mr. Speaker, when this measure was before the house on Friday last in the form of a resolution, speaking on behalf of this party I indicated that we welcomed the measure and considered it as an improvement in the scheme of progress of this corporation. At that time, however, we raised the matter for the consideration of the minister and it is to that matter that I should now like to return. I refer to the failure of the legislation to make provision for extending to underdeveloped countries low interest loans which these underdeveloped countries could then use for purchase of our exports. An examination of the statistics today makes quite clear the need among the underdeveloped nations for loans and credits of this kind. Up to date most of the loans which have been made available to the underdeveloped nations have been made through the world bank for reconstruction and development. During the period of its operations to date it has done a very noteworthy and praiseworthy job. Last year I think it made loans amounting to almost $900 million. As of June 30 of this year, the total amount outstanding was about $6.5 billion. The main trouble with loans made under this agency is that they are made at the going commercial rate of 5 per cent or 6 per cent.
The difficulty that underdeveloped nations of this world are now experiencing is that the amounts of loans for which they have contracted or which they can obtain under the world bank have now reached the point where their export earnings and their economies will no longer permit them to carry any additional loans because of the rate charged and because of the need for the reduction of the principal. A member of the commonwealth, for example, namely India, is indebted to the world bank to the amount
Export Credits Insurance Act of approximately $626 million. India's economy is now reaching the point where she can no longer afford to obtain any further financing of this kind. Hence the need today is for low interest loans to underdeveloped countries.
On Friday I referred the house to a report in the Globe and Mail of that day by Sir William Iliff. In this morning's Globe and Mail there is another report by the same gentleman. In it he is quoted as saying this:
The great need now, he said, is for interest free loans to help the developing countries over the difficult period when debt charges outweigh the improvement in export earnings.
As I have indicated, these underdeveloped countries can no longer afford to obtain financing at commercial rates. In order to meet this difficulty the world bank about a year ago opened up the international development association which provides loans for 50 years at 1 per cent. The situation developing in that institution is that although they had the sum of $760 million available for loans, they are now beginning to see the bottom of the barrel. They have committed over $520 million out of this amount and the funds are expected to be used up by the middle of 1963. What I am trying to emphasize for the consideration of the house is the fact that this problem of obtaining low interest credits is the major difficulty facing the underdeveloped nations.
The annual meeting of the international development association in Washington in September emphasized the extreme urgency for the richer nations, including Canada, to make available these long term credits for the underdeveloped nations. It indicated that it would find no difficulty at all in lending out $600 million each year for at least the next five years, or a total of $3 billion. It is into this great new area of world trade, this limitless market, that we in the New Democratic party would like to see Canada lead the way.
The northern nations of the world are living in comparative luxury while a vast majority of the coloured people are desperately poor. This gap is at present widening. Again, if I may, I should like to refer to the article I quoted earlier by Sir William Iliff. He states as follows:
-living standards in the poor countries have done little more than hold their own since the end of the war.
That is during the last 15 years. Indeed, the problem is becoming accentuated. Since 1947, the population of the world has increased by 700 million. Two thirds of this population increase has occurred in the countries of Asia where the people are already desperately poor and short of food, clothing

Export Credits Insurance Act and shelter. Modern methods of communication have made these people aware of the affluence of the northern countries of the world and they are looking to us for understanding, guidance and assistance. It seems to me that if we fail to meet this challenge they will undoubtedly look elsewhere.
In the past decade it was said that the balance of world power depended upon the recovery of Europe. In the coming decade that same balance of world power will turn upon our rapidly increasing the wealth of the southern peoples. A serious attempt to do this would provide significant export opportunities for Canadian products, particularly processed, manufactured and capital goods. From 1950 to 1958 the southern countries increased their imports by 45 per cent. In 1957 only 70 per cent of this came from the northern countries and amounted to more than $21 billion. Eighty per cent of it was in manufactured goods such as machinery, transportation equipment, chemicals and so forth. The United Nations has estimated that the merchandise imports of the southern peoples from the northern countries during the next 10 years will total $440 billion and will increase at an annual average rate of 5.5 per cent.
It seems to me that these figures open up a staggering opportunity for a country such as Canada with respect to her export trade, if we have the courage and the vision to reach out and accept these opportunities and to take upon ourselves the responsibilities which they impose. These countries are in great need. They cannot get the required capital for further development because they can no longer pay interest and principal charges on any further loans. The only solution now is the provision of low cost loans to these countries whose people are not only hungry for food but hungry for the products that our economy is capable of producing. If we are in a position to extend the necessary credits and loans so that they can buy our goods, they will eventually develop their countries to the point where trade can take place between us.
It seems to me that this is not only a logical attempt at international aid but that it will assist our own export markets. It is in every way in keeping with the tradition that we help each other and that the rich should help the weak.
Previously under the provisions of this legislation when it was introduced in 1944 there was a section under which the government was empowered to make loans to other countries for the purchase of Canadian exports. However, this section was permitted to lapse at the end of 1947 and since that

time it has not been used. As I said earlier, while we welcome this proposal and feel that it is a step in the right direction, we regret that we have not made provision for low cost loans to underdeveloped countries so that they may purchase the products our Canadian economy is capable of producing. It is a step in the right direction, although a timid one. Therefore, I should like to move, seconded by the hon. member for Burnaby-Richmond (Mr. Prittie):
That the motion be amended by striking out all the words after the word "that" and by substituting therefor the following words:
"this house declines to proceed with Bill No. C-63 because its terms do not include an extension of the assistance to the governments of other countries provided in section 23 of the Export Credits Insurance Act".


Some hon. Members:: Question.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Order. The Chair is not satisfied as to form with regard to this amendment and, if hon. members will bear with me, I am seeking advice from the Clerk.


George Harris Hees: Mr. Speaker, the amendment that has been moved refers to section 23 of the Export Credits Insurance Act. I have a copy of the Export Credits Insurance Act and I cannot see any section 23 as part of that act.


Reid Scott: If you will just turn to chapter 105 of the statutes-


George Harris Hees: What year?


Reid Scott: I suspect that the minister is probably examining some pamphlet, but the Revised Statutes of Canada, chapter 105, set out the Export Credits Insurance Act.


George Harris Hees: What year?


Reid Scott: The year is 1952, and there is clearly a section 23.


An hon. Member:: You are ten years behind the times.


Reid Scott: You are the ones who are ten years behind the times.


George Harris Hees: Mr. Speaker, the Export Credits Insurance Act has been amended in various years since that time. The last amendment was in 1960-61.


George James McIlraith: March, 1962.


George Harris Hees: The last amendment, I am advised, was during the last session of parliament in 1962. As far as I am aware, this is the Export Credits Insurance Act as it has been amended from time to time which I now hold in my hand.


Colin Cameron: On the point of order raised by the minister, I would point out that the section to which my colleague from Danforth has

referred was part of the act as first passed, and as written at that time the section was to expire on December 31, 1947. I assume, therefore, that it was never repealed because it did not have to be repealed, but it was a part of the original act.


George Harris Hees: It may have been a part of the original act but the parliament of Canada has amended that act on a number of occasions since that time, and what I hold in my hand is the present Export Credits Insurance Act as passed by the parliament of Canada.


Mr. Lewis:: Was section 23 ever repealed?


George Harris Hees: I am not going into the history of the act. All I know is that what I hold in my hand is the present act as it has been passed by parliament and it contains no section 23. Therefore I claim that the amendment is out of order.


Reid Scott: Speaking to that point, Mr. Speaker, I should like to point out for your consideration that the original act did contain a section 23 which has never been amended or repealed. The various amendments that were brought into the house from time to time over the years all dealt with sections of the act other than section 23, and it has never been amended or repealed. In my respectful submission it is still valid.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Does the hon. member for Vancouver Centre wish to speak to the point of order?


Mr. Nicholson:: Yes, Mr. Speaker. Surely when the consolidated statutes came into being in 1952 there was a repeal of any pre-existing statute that was inconsistent therewith. Once consolidation takes effect there is a repeal.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Is the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre speaking to the point of order?


Stanley Howard Knowles: Yes, Mr. Speaker. My eyesight is not good enough to see what the Minister of Trade and Commerce has in his hand but I assume it is an office consolidation of the act of the kind on which there is usually a note that it is not something that is used in the courts. May I point out to you, as one or two of my colleagues have indicated, that what this amendment asks is for an extension of something that was provided in section 23 of the act as it was originally passed and as it is on the statute books of Canada in the Revised Statutes of Canada, 1952. If the office consolidation does not contain section 23, that is probably due to the fact that it became inoperative because of the date that appears in section 23, but that goes
Export Credits Insurance Act straight to the point of the amendment, which is that the provision set out in section 23 should now be extended. If it is necessary to add a few words to the amendment to say "as set out in the Revised Statutes of Canada, 1952," that can be done, of course; but surely it is quite clear that what the amendment asks for is the extension of something that is in the original act.


George Harris Hees: Mr, Speaker, I am advised by the president of the Export Credits Insurance Corporation that section 23, to which hon. members are referring, expired on December 31, 1947.


David Lewis: If the minister will permit me, when we discuss something like this I think we ought to know what section 23 of the act says. It is in these words:
At any time before the 1st day of January, 1948, the governor in council on the recommendation of the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Trade and Commerce may-
Do certain things. It does not provide that he may do those things after the first day of January, 1948. Therefore, since the first day of January, 1948 the things which section 23 of the act provides may be done could no longer be done, but this section is still a part of the statute.


George James McIlraith: No.


David Lewis: It is there, and all that the amendment says is that the section, which is still in the statute but is inoperative, shall be given effect to again. Surely hon. members can immediately see the difference between something which is deleted and something which becomes inoperative. It is no longer operative but it is still a part of the statute and the amendment says that the section, which is part of the statute but no longer operative, shall now be made operative. With the greatest respect, that is obviously in order.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: All I will say to the
house at the moment is that I am still in some doubt as to the relevancy of section 23 which is what really disturbed me in the first place, apart from the fact that this amendment seems to anticipate something that could be offered when we go into committee to give the bill, as a whole, clause by clause consideration. I shall not make a ruling right at the moment but I am grateful to those who have made contributions. I shall give the matter consideration over the dinner hour and announce my decision at eight o'clock.
It being five o'clock this house will now proceed to the consideration of private members' business as listed on today's order paper, namely notices of motions.
536	HOUSE OF
Extension of Jurisdiction of Wheat Board



DOMINION-PROVINCIAL RELATIONS REQUEST FOR CONFERENCE RESPECTING EDUCATION, WELFARE, ETC.

[Stage Direction]
On the order: Notices of motion:
That, in the opinion of this house, the federal government should give leadership by convening a conference of federal, provincial and municipal authorities to review the responsibilities of each level of government and their financial ability to assume same, with a view to reallocating the heavy burden for services, such as education and welfare on a more equitable basis.
An hon. Member:: Stand.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Will the house give unanimous consent to standing of the first motion?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Do the rules not say it should be on the request of the government? Is that not the way to put it? If we consent then it stands.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: I shall amend my previous remarks and add the words "with the consent of the government."


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
Order stands.



CANADIAN WHEAT BOARD


Mr. Bernard Dumont (Bellechasse) moved:: That, in the opinion of this house, consideration should be given to the advisability of extending the jurisdiction of the Canadian wheat board to include the marketing and transportation of wheat for the eastern provinces so as to allow a uniform price inside and outside Canada.
(Translation):
He said: Mr. Speaker, this motion is submitted in the interest of all the farmers in this country. As the western and the eastern farmers both belong to the great Canadian family, it would be illogical that those in the east should have to pay certain commodities $3 more a hundredweight than what the western farmers are receiving. That is why I maintain that we, in the east, will have to talk with the Canadian wheat board, in order to know what interests are interfering, or whether some control is exerted inside that organization, which would result in western farmers getting a sensible price for their grain while we, the eastern fanners, have to pay an exorbitant price, which has led even the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Hamilton) to admit that, as a result, 92,000 eastern farms only yield an annual income of $1,200.


If we pay, as I mentioned earlier, an exorbitant price for that wheat it is precisely because we, in the east, never had a chance to make ourselves heard by that board. This is not to say that we would tell the people in the west: "You are getting too much for your wheat." On the contrary, we want them to go on getting that price, but we also want the board at least to enable the eastern farmers not to pay a higher price for Canadian wheat than do the Chinese or the Poles.
If we grant some advantages to those countries, which are behind the iron curtain, why should we not help the eastern farmers in the same way?
Since I have been in the house, I have asked for storage facilities. We are told that in the west this year, there is a surplus of over 500 million bushels of wheat. Well, as the present storage facilities are inadequate, why does the Canadian wheat board not cooperate with the Catholic Farmers' Union or the Federated Co-operative of Quebec who, after all, represent the larger part of the eastern farmers? Why would representatives of those organizations not go and talk over the matter with the members of the Canadian wheat board, and persuade them that the board should immediately have some storage facilities built like those that they have to build in the west. Moreover, they might inform the board of the rail freight tariffs we are quite willing to pay as this is the means of transportation which we are now using. For we

that is the eastern farmers-are of the opinion that if we could do that transport in barges stopping along the deep water wharves which are now found in the east, the freight rate would be considerably lower and consumption of western wheat or grain would rise, because the present cost of the western grain is so high that eastern farmers are no longer interested in producing, and that is why there are those 92,000 farms. Indeed, the people we meet, among them the genial Social Credit members from the west, inform us that the same problems prevail in British Columbia. As a matter of fact, according to the statistics of the Department of Agriculture, there are, in that province, 27,587 farmers, 11,000 of whom earn more than $1,200, but, there too, we find some who earn less than $1,200 a year, which means that 46 per cent of all the farmers in that province are experiencing great difficulties.
If it is now possible to grant, as was suggested during the debate, conditions seemingly favourable for exports, should we not

also think of Canadians, mainly those in the eastern section of the country, who must pay more for their wheat than those countries receiving assistance under the Colombo plan? After the statement made at noon by the minister about the program called ARDA, a program which will revolutionize farming in the province of Quebec, would it not be logical that such credit be used to build warehouses, with the agreement of the Canadian wheat board?
A fair solution is now sought to our farmers' problems; well, the government should not think only of the western farmers but also of their eastern counterparts.
I suggest that after a national survey, we would be in a position to increase productivity on the farms of our section of the country with the assistance of the Canadian wheat board provided representatives of the Quebec federation of co-operatives and the Catholic Farmers' Union sat on that body.
The support price of 34 cents for eggs announced by the Minister of Agriculture for this year is barely sufficient to prevent the farmers from starving to death, since it equals the cost of the grain we have to purchase at a price which is much too high at this time.
This is why, in my estimation, we could obtain feed grains at a much reduced price if the moneys paid in contribution to the Colombo plan were used to assist the eastern farmers; it would also be more advantageous, as I said, than to sell such grain to the Chinese and the Russians at a lower price than that paid by the eastern farmers. If we built warehouses along the wonderful St. Lawrence river, from Fort William, that grain could be shipped around the Gaspe peninsula and even into lake St. John area, and the number of buyers in the province of Quebec would thus be considerably increased.
Since the Catholic Farmers' Union represents 38,000 farmers, it would be normal for the Canadian wheat board to look after the farmers the same way a family looks after its members and to offer the eastern farmers advantages as interesting as those offered at the present time to foreigners by western Canada.
In the province of Quebec, we want to live on our family farms. But when we have to pay higher interests, not to speak of unreasonable profits, the prices become excessive. As we buy 75 per cent of the basic grain production, I say that there should be no control and that individuals should not be permitted to take unfair advantage of us.
Extension of Jurisdiction of Wheat Board
Although western farmers do not seem to be satisfied with the prices they are receiving, eastern farmers, as I mentioned earlier, have to pay up to $3 more per hundred pounds for the grain they have to buy.
There lies the real fault in this illogical situation, and if speedy action is not taken within a few years, some 10,000 to 12,000 family farms will be closed down, and their people will trek to the cities where they will swell the ranks of the unemployed.
If I have failed to convince the Minister of Agriculture of the necessity to build warehouses immediately, before navigation stops on the St. Lawrence river on December 15, in order that they may benefit the people this very winter, then 5,000 farms will have to be abandoned and those people will be starving this winter.
As it is necessary to feed mankind today, we, the eastern farmers, are willing to go on producing, on condition that we shall be looked after, because we are not any greater dolts than other farmers in this country.
In Quebec, we intend to produce, we intend to grow crops, if we are paid sensible prices for our grain and not exorbitant ones, because of a too high interest rate, as the people in the west are ready to sell us their grain. There are 2 billion human beings who are starving and we, Catholics of the province of Quebec, do not intend to just sit there, for we want to produce; at present, the situation is illogical. That is quite inconsistent. Those conditions must stop, and quickly too, because our farmers are getting impatient.
On June 18 last, 26 members from Quebec asked for those things; they were, indeed, quite satisfied, in their minds, that it was time to ask for the eastern farmers' due.
Earlier today, I saw our socialist friends opposite rise with the standing orders in their hand. Laws are all right. They are necessary. But, if we do not legislate in regard to the needs of people who are now in a difficult position, our friends the socialists will only give further help to the communists.
Anyway-and I have heard it frequently- we are told many things about planning in agriculture. There is no question of planning. All we want is to be sold grain cheaper, so as to be able to produce at a profitable price in our part of the country. For, according to Khruschev's own statements, planning in Russia and China seems to have been a tremendous failure. The land cannot be managed at will.
Since this grain has been produced by the western farmers, we wish to have our share of it and to have it at a reasonable price, for the government's policy of a minimum price
538	HOUSE OF COMMONS
Extension of Jurisdiction of Wheat Board guarantee has been very costly to the Canadian people. Presently, the annual income of 92,000 farmers-nearly one million persons-amounts only to $1,200 per farm; this is inconsistent and abnormal in a country such as ours.
That is why we urge the government to intercede with the Canadian wheat board so that the board admits experts, as can be found in the U.C.C., in the province of Quebec, in the federated co-operatives and in some representatives of grain merchants, who are not all exploiters. We hope that those people shall be able to find an adequate solution and that, at the earliest possible date, they will bring about the construction of large enough storage facilities, with three compartments, for wheat, barley and oats, the three main commodities required for consumption.
Our co-operatives and our grain merchants will then go and get the grain out of those storage facilities. We will not need the government to get them. Since the grain must be stored for conservation purposes, elevators will have to be built in the west. Then, the Canadian wheat board could get transport rates from other carriers than the railways, which charge too much. In fact, we would be willing to pay the transport costs by boat, from Fort William to Quebec. Adding to this the small grant which the government has been paying for a number of years, a decrease in the price of agricultural commodities such as eggs and pork would then result. We would then stop asking for subsidies. It is not subsidies we want, but favourable prices, since we are living in Canada.
A French author once wrote that our country consisted of 30 acres of snow. But just the same, we want to live in Canada, we love our country and shall remain here. Of course, we shall never be able to compete with certain countries, Australia, for instance, which can produce butter at 22 cents a pound.
Since we have certain public bodies like the Canadian wheat board, why not make it possible for eastern farmers to get what they expect? Let us avail ourselves of the means at our disposal so that eastern farmers may get this year their fair share of the national income.
(Text):


Mr.  L. E. Kindi@Macleod: Mr. Speaker, it is a great privilege to rise and speak on this resolution. I have listened with a great deal

of interest to the hon. member for Belle-chasse (Mr. Dumont). I sympathize with him in the problems the farmers of eastern Canada are having with respect to their requirements for wheat and the marketing of their wheat products. Therefore he, or his party, has brought forward this resolution. Before going into a minute discussion I wish to call the attention of the house to the phrasing of the resolution:
-the advisability of extending the jurisdiction of the Canadian wheat board to include the marketing and transportation of wheat from the eastern provinces as well as from the western provinces so as to allow a uniform price inside and outside of Canada.
That requires a tremendous amount of concentration, a tremendous amount of thinking, and of course the hon. member for Bellechasse in his remarks indicated his own views on how this might be accomplished by the wheat board, by extending credit, by taking into consideration transportation costs, and other things.
I do not at this time wish to take up the time of the house by going into all those details, beyond saying that I am very sympathetic toward the eastern wheat farmer. I well recall the time some 27 years ago when the farmers of western Canada- and there are 225,000 of them out there who are members of the wheat board and who market their wheat through the board-were so much up in arms at the system of marketing through the old method of the Winnipeg grain exchange-


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: The unplanned method.


An hon. Member:: The socialist method.


Mr. Kindt:: -that they demanded of their government that a plan of marketing be brought in which, as hon. members know, was the origin of the Canadian wheat board. I might say that what the farmers wanted was an orderly system of marketing. They wanted their wheat to be fed on to the market as it was required by the consumer countries and in accordance with the demand from the millers.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: According to plan.


Lawrence Elliott Kindt: They also wanted an averaging of prices so as to overcome the speculation which had been so rampant on the open market. They further wished to have a board which could enter the international market and negotiate sales to China-as has been done-to Poland and all the other countries of the world, acting as an agency representing the best interests of the farmers of western Canada. These are some of the things the farmers wanted. As I recall vividly, the Bennett government was in power at the time.

Incidentally, that was a Progressive Conservative government. The farmers asked this government to put their wishes into effect, and this thought occurs to me-that you have to turn to the Progressive Conservatives if you want to see anything done in western Canada.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Would the hon. member permit a question?


Lawrence Elliott Kindt: When I have finished. The wheat board was set up by that government after a lengthy and, I have no doubt, profitable discussion in this very chamber back in 1935. The groundwork was laid at that time for the creation of the wheat board. I was over in the Department of Agriculture at that time as an economist and I happened to take part in the events of those days. I was asked to help assist in the writing of the legislation which set up the Canadian wheat board, so I have some claim at this time to speak with regard to that piece of legislation. It has stood for 27 years against all the inroads of private vested interest and it is still, in the minds of the western wheat farmers, the bulwark of their marketing system. They do not want any other system. The legislation setting up the board is one of the best pieces of legislation ever to be placed on the statute books of Canada and it has certainly fulfilled the needs of the people.
Returning to the resolution, I want to say again that this question of extending help to the eastern farmer is a complicated one. It will require a tremendous amount of thought-a tremendous amount of study. I am not in a position to say at this moment whether the method indicated in this resolution is the correct one or not. However, as far as the western farmer is concerned, he likes to sell his grain and he would like to sell to farmers in the east. As to the part the wheat board will play in this, who would pay the cost and so on, I do not think I am in a position at this time to provide the answer, especially as I know something of the complications which attach to wheat marketing. However. I personally feel very sympathetic toward the feeders and farmers of eastern Canada. Speaking as a westerner, I think we all want to do everything we can for the eastern farmer.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Would the hon. member permit a question?


Lawrence Elliott Kindt: Certainly.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: The hon. member has stated that the government of Mr. Bennett was a Progressive Conservative government. Would he say it is correct to call it a Progressive Conservative government?
Extension of Jurisdiction of Wheat Board


Mr.  L. E. Kindi@Macleod: It was a Conservative government, but they were very progressive.
(Translation):


Mr. Vincent Drouin (Argenleuil-Deux-Montagnes):: Mr. Speaker, the Liberal opposition does not quite grasp the scope of the notice of motion introduced by the hon. member for Bellechasse (Mr. Dumont), since, as far as we know, there is only one selling price both for export and domestic purposes. However, we admit that eastern farmers do not have the same facilities as western farmers have, not only as a result of higher transportation costs, but also as a result of their being obliged to handle their sales through brokers.
However, we recognize that the motives which have urged the hon. member for Bellechasse to introduce that resolution are most commendable, and we are pleased to support his recommendations.
It is undeniable that transportation by boat is much less costly than by railway or by truck, and the government should make an effort to facilitate the construction of storage facilities and water-borne transport wherever possible. Where water-borne transport is impossible, I am of the opinion that the government should increase subsidies on road or railway transport. In order to promote sound competition, I wonder whether it might not be a good thing to allow the consumer to deal directly with the western producers, within the limits of Canada.
Mr. Speaker, the members of the official opposition do not want to be accused of wishing to talk out the resolution introduced by the hon. member for Bellechasse, and for that reason, I close my remarks in saying that the Liberal party is conscious of the eastern farmers' difficulties and that it will support, as far as possible, any bill which might improve their lot.
(Text):


Mr. Arnold Peters (Timiskaming):: I am
very interested in that resolution because it deals with a subject with which we have been concerned for some time. It would appear that a desire is growing in all quarters of the house to support the idea of an equalization as between agriculture in the east and in the west. There has, it seems to me, been a great deal of influence used by members of parliament in days gone by in the promotion of legislation which has been advantageous to the western provinces and which, finally, through the efforts of the wheat board, has resulted in the marketing of their major commodity in a more advantageous way than any available to farmers in the eastern parts
540	HOUSE OF
Extension of Jurisdiction of Wheat Board cl Canada. However, I think something should be said about the last part of the motion. This is something for us to consider.
It is important that we in Canada have equalization between the east and the west. It would be very nice to find some method of subsidization, but I am surprised at the hon. member for Bellechasse, who talks of free enterprise and then wishes to take over the free enterprise elevators on the great lakes and make them into a credit corporation under the Canadian wheat board. He may not know that the Canadian wheat board is also a government agency, and if they were to take over the elevators and the transportation system, it would require a great deal of subsidization to accomplish this. While I am completely in disagreement with the proposal, I am very surprised at how he can attack collectivism and the other things he mentions and at the same time speak for free enterprise. Because what he suggests is just the opposite. Surprisingly for us in this part of the house, we have never made this strong presentation for collective ownership of agencies now under free enterprise in the field of agriculture, and I do wonder if he is speaking for his party on that particular aspect.
Mr. Speaker, the problem of the equalization of our wheat and grain products under the jurisdiction of the Canadian wheat board is divided mainly into two parts. The first is the question of our foreign sales, and the second is our domestic sales, which in turn is divided into two other parts, our flour and wheat for cereal purposes, and second, grain which in this country is used for feed. I believe that in eastern Canada we are more interested, or probably show a greater interest, in the feed portion of Canadian wheat board sales than we are in the flour portion, which has been relatively well equalized, and in foreign sales. We in this party have always believed that we should work towards a two price system and not a one price system. We believe that the export markets should be operated on a competitive basis throughout the world, and that we should try as hard as possible to meet that competition and to keep our external price of wheat in line with other countries, so that the advantage we have with the type of wheat we grow will show up in the competitive field and we will be able to increase our foreign sales.
We in this party have also agreed that there can and should be some consideration given to the subsidizing of our domestic sales. In this regard consideration can be given to the grain products brought into eastern Canada which can be used for feed purposes. I agree that this equality between the east 

and the west is very important. It is absolutely necessary for us to strike some balance between the cost of production of beef in eastern Canada and the cost in western Canada. I do not think there is any western member here who would ask for an unfair advantage because of the method in which wheat in particular is controlled by the Canadian wheat board, and that he would ask for an advantage in the production of beef cattle.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


William Arnold Peters: Well, maybe there are, Mr. Speaker. Perhaps I should not have said that most western farmers are reasonable; there may be exceptions.


Mr. Horner (Acadia):: You are as mixed up as ever.


William Arnold Peters: I said there may be some
exceptions. Perhaps I was wrong in thinking that there was some harmony and uninimity in the desire to establish a fair and reasonable price. But it has always been our hope, although it was not fulfilled in recent years in the recent changes to the feed and grain acts, that there will be equality between the prices in eastern Canada and in western Canada for feed grain.
The hon. member who introduced this resolution did not say whether he was interested in subsidization of transportation to make possible this type of equality between the east and the west and I was not quite clear whether he was contemplating putting wheat and other commodities grown in both eastern and western Canada under the Canada Grain Act. But I think our position should be made clear, and our inability to support the last part of this resolution should also be made very plain. Over the years we have been willing to support a two price system, and we continue to do so. But we also put forward the hope that we will be able to equalize the price and the cost of the commodities which will be produced under the Canadian wheat board and consumed in eastern Canada with those of western Canada.


Warner Herbert Jorgenson: I wonder if the hon. member would permit a question? He is advocating a two price system and I was wondering whether he wanted the domestic price to be higher or lower than the world price.


William Arnold Peters: Mr. Speaker, I would imagine that the export price would be the best competitive price obtainable on the export market. The price obtained in the domestic field, I would imagine, is now being subsidized to

some extent, and this would usually tend to create a price higher than that obtained on the export market.


Lawrence Elliott Kindt: May I ask the hon. member a question. How would he solve the question of grades under his two price system?


William Arnold Peters: I would think that this would have to be given consideration, but I can see no difference between the grades you have on the domestic market and the grades on the external market. You could probably sell the same grades inside the country as you sold outside the country, and I would not think that this would produce any particular hardship.
(Translation):


Mr. Henri Laiulippe (Compton-Frontenac):: Mr. Speaker, I wholly endorse the motion of the hon. member for Bellechasse (Mr. Dumont).
I would like to see all eastern farmers enjoy the advantages available to the citizens of other countries.
Eastern farmers are in a pitiful situation. Farmers in my constituency abandon their farms at an alarming rate. Complete ranges are seen where there are almost no farmers any more. Everything is abandoned. In my riding, nearly 50 per cent of farmers have left their land during the last ten years.
Here is an alarming situation, Mr. Speaker, and I believe that we should understand and admit that farmers are the essential basis of society, on which are established all other social structures, and consequently that everything will crumble if farmers disappear.
Mr. Speaker, it is time eastern farmers got favourable prices. They are paying too much for the grain they buy. And not only are they entitled to reduced prices, they are also entitled to those advantages which are offered other countries.
Moreover, they are entitled to certain financial benefits. A while ago, our friends opposite spoke of setting up a system of 1 per cent interest loans to finance foreign markets. Well, this opportunity should be available to our farmers, and if the hon. member for Bellechasse is willing to include this suggestion in his notice of motion, that is to lend money to eastern farmers at a 1 per cent interest rate, I shall support it. Such a measure would allow eastern farmers to improve their land, to keep on producing, to live better and to keep the social structure going up instead of crumbling down.
541
Extension of Jurisdiction of Wheat Board
Mr. Speaker, I feel that the proposal before the house is extremely important and that all necessary means should be taken to give eastern farmers what they are entitled to, for these are products manufactured in Canada, by Canadians and for Canadians.
Canadians should have them first and, with this, I close my remarks.
(Text):


Mr. E. Nasserden (Roslhern):: Mr. Speaker, before I deal with this matter this afternoon I should first of all like to congratulate you on your elevation to your high office. This is the first opportunity I have had. I do so on behalf of the people of my riding, many of whom came from the province of Quebec and also from France, and who are interested in the fact that you represent both the historic races in Canada.
The resolution before us moved by the hon. member for Bellechasse (Mr. Dumont) is as follows:
That, in the opinion of this house, consideration should be given to the advisability of extending the jurisdiction of the Canadian wheat board to include the marketing and transportation of wheat for the eastern provinces as well as for the western provinces so as to allow a uniform price inside and outside of Canada.
The first thing that occurs to me is that possibly we should go back to the beginning when the Canadian grain board was first brought into the House of Commons back in 1935 and to the debates of June 10 when the prime minister of that day, namely the Right Hon. R. B. Bennett, moved the following resolution as found at page 3456 of Hansard of that year:
That it is expedient to bring in a measure to establish a board to be known as the Canadian grain board with power to purchase, receive and take delivery of wheat, oats, barley, rye and flax seed, or any one or more of such grains for marketing and to sell, store, transport and market such grains, and to provide for the appointment of such clerks, employees and assistance as may be necessary-
And so on. At that time in the House of Commons when this measure was brought in I believe it is fair to say there was considerable opposition from the members of that party now forming the official opposition in the house. They were opposed particularly to the compulsory features of the Canadian Wheat Board Act. Before I go into that particular part of the matter I might quote from Mr. Bennett who, speaking in debate on June 12, 1935, had this to say as found at page 3577 of Hansard of that year:
The terms and provisions of the bill are short and simple. It provides for the marketing of the Canadian wheat crop through the channel I have indicated, not through a private enterprise. It is to be
542	HOUSE OF
Extension of Jurisdiction of Wheat Board done through a public board created by the dominion of Canada for the purpose of ensuring against the destruction of that measure of economic stability, weak though it may be, that we through our efforts have been able to build up in the last few years.
He made that statement because of the situation which had prevailed in Canada in 1929 and 1930 when we saw the surplus of wheat in this country rise as it had never risen in any period prior to that time. I need not remind hon. members of this house that the government of that time was led by Right Hon. W. L. Mackenzie King.
A few moments ago I said that the opposition to the wheat board act at that time was directed against the compulsory features. I will refer to the speech of J. L. Ralston on June 13, 1935, in which as found at page 3597 of Hansard of that year, he said this:
I would strike out or eliminate the compulsory feature which is contained in this bill. Mr. McFarland has no compulsory power to make people sell their wheat to him, but this act by virtue of giving control over the elevators does create a situation whereby the whole grain trade is tied up and made subservient to this board.
That has remained essentially the purport of the act up until this time. When I look at this resolution I just wonder whether the hon. member really meant he wished consideration to be given to including the marketing of grain or wheat in eastern Canada and central Canada and having it marketed in the same way as it is marketed in western Canada today under the Canadian wheat board. In fact, as I think back over the last four or five years of those things that have come to our desks as members of parliament from the wheat producers of Ontario and the grain producers in eastern Canada generally, it would seem to me that they have not been asking that the Canadian wheat board take control of the marketing of their products here in eastern Canada.
The other thing that I was wondering about is why the transportation of wheat is mentioned. I would have thought that the feeders and the livestock producers in central Canada and eastern Canada might be more concerned with oats and barley than with wheat alone. However, I just draw that matter to the attention of the house for the consideration of hon. members at this particular time.
All of us are naturally in favour of building up a sound agriculture policy in Canada. We realize that this entails a general feeding policy in Canada and the development of the livestock industry in many areas of Canada where today there are lands which are practically lying idle and which could be used to advantage in that regard. However, when an hon. member


representing his party rises in his place in the House of Commons and indicates that they would like to strike off approximately $1 per hundredweight from the grain that has come from western Canada, I think it opens up a whole wide question for all of us to take a good look at. I think that question could very well be asked by some of those who produce grain very close to where the hon. member lives. If we are going to strike off $1 per hundredweight from grain from western Canada, what are we going to do about the grain that is produced in Ontario, in the province of Quebec and in the maritimes?
With regard to representation on the Canadian wheat board, may I say it is a known fact that there is an advisory committee from eastern Canada. This committee is composed of six members:	two from
Ontario, two from Quebec and two from the maritime provinces. I believe they will be meeting in the very near future. I know that all of us in the house have looked forward to the constitution of this committee, in the hope that they will be able to give some worth-while advice to the board at such time.
The matter of elevators in central and eastern Canada is not a new one. It has been raised many times in the past by advocates from various parties. We in western Canada particularly have thought that storage elevators in the eastern part of the country and in central Canada as well might be of great benefit to us. We have often wondered why the co-operatives in those areas of the country have not made more use of their co-operative strength in the purchasing of grain. Those hon. members who are familiar with what the co-operatives have been able to do in western Canada will know that here is a field in which there is room for a great deal of activity. Often a co-operative can do something on behalf of its members much better than can a government and, incidentally, at less cost as well.
I should like to put this on the record. Mention was made of $3 per hundredweight for wheat, with an initial payment of $1.23. You have a final payment and subsequent payments which were about 39 cents, I believe. You get about $1.62. That is for 60 pounds of wheat. If you take 100 pounds you have $3. You also must take into consideration handling charges and those things have to be paid by the person who is producing just in the same way as with our grain going into the export market.
I would be interested in hearing the other front bench members of the Social Credit party let us know what they think of this

bill. After all, this is a very interesting situation. It is one in which we are all interested. I am interested in the hope expressed by the hon. member for Bellechasse that they can knock $1 off a hundredweight of wheat from western Canada. We in western Canada have felt that we have not been securing what you would call a fair enough price for grain throughout the years. If you had been here during the last several years you would have experienced some of that play here in the House of Commons and across the country whereby the grain producers in western Canada were asking for substantial subsidies.
I have with me here the Wednesday, May 7, 1958 report of the Searle Grain Company which, in dealing with the wheat problem in general, had this to say among other things:
The unwinding of the wheat marketing problem in the future is going to require not only the patience, courage and understanding of all concerned, whatever their personal views, but also a willingness on the part of the Canadian taxpayer to accept, if necessary, any temporary financial burden that may arise. Such a burden, since the early days of world war II, has been shouldered by the western wheat grower for the benefit of the Canadian people at large. Before long, perhaps, it may be necessary for the population as a whole to assume some part of it.
In this regard I might say that over the last several years-I believe the hon. member for Bellechasse referred to this-there have been some subsidies to producers in western Canada. I think of the acreage payments. I also think of the alternative to acreage payments which would be the implementation of a two price system with respect to wheat used for human consumption in Canada. I believe this has been advocated by some people. I believe that the acreage payments were made in lieu of such a system.
I just wanted to draw that to the attention of the hon. member because people in western Canada are not jealous of the progress being made in other parts of Canada. All we want to do is to try to share in the progress being made in other parts of Canada, and I would point out that many of the things that have been said about conditions in the eastern part of the country can be said about other parts of Canada as well.
The resolution is in these words:
That, in the opinion of this house, consideration should be given to the advisability of extending the jurisdiction of the Canadian wheat board to include the marketing-
I will skip the reference to transportation for the moment.
-of wheat for the eastern provinces as well as for the western provinces so as to allow a uniform price inside and outside Canada.
Having regard to the wording of the resolution, I would point out that we have had no
27507-3-354
Extension of Jurisdiction of Wheat Board indication from those producing grain in eastern Canada that they want this kind of policy put into effect at the present time. It may be that those in the feed industry would like to see this kind of policy put into effect, but I do not think that the producers of grain in eastern Canada are in favour of it. I am inclined for that reason to feel that the resolution is a little premature.
I was quite interested in some of the references that the hon. member for Timiskaming the agricultural expert of the New Democratic party, made. It was not so long ago that they had another agricultural expert who now sits in another part of the house. One can only wonder how long it will be before his trail will be followed. My only other observation would be that I do not think the hon. member added very much to what has been said in the past and he certainly did not throw any new light on the subject matter of this resolution.


Eugene Whelan: Mr. Speaker, I will take only a short time on this subject. One of the members from Alberta -I forget his riding-made some statements with regard to eastern grain. As a former member of the western Ontario winter wheat producers board I can say that it may be that some of the members from eastern Canada are not really informed about what we try to do. We have a surplus of grain and a deduction on our grain by our marketing board to the tune of 9 cents a bushel in order to export our surplus grain to Europe on a two price system.
We asked the government for a subsidy on this grain to enable it to enter the eastern provinces, because we had a surplus of damp grain last year that was good for feed. This grain is good for feed. A small soybean supplement added to it makes it as good feed as western grain.
We could also produce enough high energy feed for eastern Canada if we were given the same subsidy as is provided for western grain to enable it to enter the eastern provinces. We asked for a subsidy on a big crop of corn that we had in western Ontario last year. It was announced that a subsidy would be paid, and maybe one of the reasons a subsidy was not paid on Ontario com was the disadvantage we had of not having any big shipping points available at that time. Never before in the history of this country that I know of have the people of Canada been asked to pay a subsidy on United States grain to enable it to go into the eastern provinces of Canada. This put us in Ontario at a definite disadvantage. We are not making a fair price on this corn and all we are asking is that we be given a subsidy to

Export Credits Insurance Act provide us with a fair price in the same way that the western producers are given a subsidy on their wheat. With a subsidy on grain going in to the maritime provinces we could produce all the corn that Canada needs, all the high energy feed and all the feed grain that the maritime provinces need.
As a former director of the united cooperatives of Ontario may I say that before I was elected to the house I was appointed to a committee that was supposed to make recommendations to the Board of Grain Commissioners for Canada. We worked very closely with them and we in western Ontario feel that right across the province corn could be grown as far north as No. 7 highway in view of the modern breeding of hybrid corn. We would have no trouble at all proving we could grow the corn if we were given a fair return for our efforts.
On my own farm I had 100 acres of corn this year which we are now harvesting. We in western Ontario have had one of the biggest yielding crops of corn we have had in a good many years. I am sure that the government can take no credit for that. Maybe they will try to, but the credit belongs to God and the farmers. We had extraordinarily good growing conditions in that area which resulted in one of the best crops in years. In years to come we can produce corn as a high energy feed grain that will take the place of a lot of the other grains and it will produce quality beef, pork and turkeys. We have shipped this grain to the maritimes before through our own local co-operative. We know we can ship corn to that area. I believe that the first corn to go into the maritime provinces went from southern Ontario and it was the high protein, high quality grain that the people there like. It was our own farm organization that asked that subsidy be paid on feed grain going into the maritime provinces, but to our amazement the subsidy was paid on United States grain entering that area. We did not think that was fair and we do not think so now.


Some hon. Members:: Six o'clock.


Mr. Speaker:: The hour appointed for the consideration of private members' business having expired, the house will now resume the business interrupted at five o'clock.
At six o'clock the house took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The house resumed at 8 p.m.


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed consideration of the motion of Mr. Hees for the second reading of 
Bill No. C-63, to amend the Export Credits Insurance Act, and the amendment thereto of Mr. Scott.
Mr. Speaker:: Prior to the five o'clock recess the hon. member for Danforth (Mr. Scott) moved an amendment and I understand that there was discussion on its admissibility. Points of order were raised in regard to it, and the Deputy Speaker informs me that he entered a caveat as to its admissibility. The discussion had not terminated when the five o'clock adjournment was reached, and therefore I am quite prepared to hear further argument on the question of its admissibility if any hon. member wishes to address the house.


George Harris Hees: Mr. Speaker, when the
Export Credits Insurance Act was passed in August 1944 it was in three parts. Part I is the responsibility of the Minister of Trade and Commerce, and this part established the Export Credits Insurance Corporation. The legislation before the house, Bill No. C-63, refers only to part I.
Part II authorized the government to make loans to devastated countries, and was the responsibility of the Minister of Finance. The right to make loans under part II expired on December 31, 1947.
The amendment moved by the hon. member for Danforth (Mr. Scott) is, I submit, out of order because the resolution which it seeks to amend was approved by the house last Friday.
Briefly, the bill deals with part I of the act. The sections which the bill seeks to amend are contained in part I of the act and deal with the operations of the corporation, the purpose of which is to assist Canadian producers to sell more goods in all parts of the world. What the hon. member wishes to do is have the government provide long term loans to developing countries. This is one of the purposes of section 21(a) as it operates at the present time and as it will operate more efficiently when the present bill is passed.
Section 21(a) provides $300 million-I repeat $300 million-for that exact purpose. Already contracts under section 21(a) amounting to more than $50 million have been signed during the past year, and commitments have been given for additional business totalling $75 million, all in developing countries.
As an example of the type of loans being made under section 21(a) I can mention the $25 million credit-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. If the minister could bring his reasoning a little closer to the

relevancy of the amendment, rather than dealing with what is being done under section 21 or section 21(a), we would derive a little more assistance at this time.


George Harris Hees: Mr. Speaker, I shall be very glad to terminate my remarks, in that I think I have disposed of the question as to whether or not the amendment is in order by pointing out that it seeks to amend the resolution which was passed by this house last Friday.
I want to give some further information for the benefit of the hon. member, who is a new member, in order to point out many things the government has done along the line he proposes since this section became inoperative some 15 years ago. However, if Your Honour feels that is out of order I shall be glad to make those remarks some time later, if they are needed.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, I gather that the point that was first raised a few minutes before five o'clock has been disposed of, and I also gather it is recognized that section 23, to which reference is made in the amendment moved by my colleague the hon. member for Danforth, is part of the act itself as it appears in the Revised Statutes of Canada for 1952.


Some hon. Members:: No.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Others have probably done so, but I have again checked all of the acts since 1952 that have amended the Export Credits Insurance Act and in no one of them is there any section repealing section 23 of the act. Therefore it is still part of the Export Credits Insurance Act despite any incomplete office consolidation that the minister may have in his hand.
With respect to the serious point the minister raised in opening his remarks after eight o'clock, I must say he raised a point that has to be considered by anyone seeking to move an amendment of this kind. That point is clearly this: is the proposed amendment covered within the framework of the resolution that the house passed on which the amending bill is based?
I draw your attention, sir, to the terms of the resolution which this house passed. It reads as follows:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to amend the Export Credits Insurance Act to increase from two hundred million dollars to four hundred million dollars the limit of the liability of the Export Credits Insurance Corporation under contracts of insurance entered into under section 21 of the act;
At that point there is a semicolon, and the rest of the resolution reads:
and to provide further for certain changes in connection with the administration of the act.
Export Credits Insurance Act
Now, Mr. Speaker, the only thing that is referred to precisely in the resolution is the increase from $200 million to $400 million, to which I have already referred, and that is carried out in clause 2 of Bill C-63 that is now before us. But the same bill, C-63, has in it clauses 1 and 3 which propose to do things which were not specifically referred to in the resolution. They are, I take it, covered by that general phrase "and to provide further for certain changes in connection with the administration of the act".
This is another case, Mr. Speaker, of a widely, generously worded resolution. We have had many of them through the years. When my hon. friends across the way sat on this side of the chamber, they did it a number times. It is a well established rule that when the resolution is so broad that it covers a multitude of things that can be done, then it is open to hon. members of the house to move amendments that are within that framework.
I suggest that if propositions such as are contained in clauses 1 and 3 of the amending bill, which were not specifically named in the resolution, are in order, it is in order to bring in other proposals which can be classified as changes in connection with the administration of the act. That is precisely what my colleague's amendment seeks to do; it seeks to make a change in connection with the administration of the act.
In his opening remarks at eight o'clock tonight the minister said that the bill he has brought in deals only with part I of the Export Credits Insurance Act. But the resolution did not confine the proposed amendments to part I of that act; it was broad enough to cover any changes in connection with the administration of the act. The reference there is to the whole act.
I submit therefore, Mr. Speaker, that the proposal contained in the amendment moved by my colleague is relevant to the bill, which seeks to amend the Exports Credits Insurance Act, and that in so far as it is an administrative change, it has been covered by the resolution which the house passed on Friday last.
While I am on my feet may I say, Mr. Speaker, that before an amendment of this character is moved from this corner, some research into what has happened in the past has always been carried out. This particular type of amendment, an amendment to second reading of a bill, is one in connection with which there is a long list of precedents. I draw your attention tonight only to one. It is found on pages 426, 427 and 428 of the Journals for 1959. The ruling given there is by Mr. Speaker Michener. It was on a second reading amendment, moved by the hon. member for Essex

Export Credits Insurance Act East (Mr. Martin), to a bill amending the Unemployment Insurance Act, which read:
This house declines to proceed with a bill, the terms ot which do not provide-
Such and such. I need not give the whole of it. The point of drawing attention to this ruling is that it was a case where the right of the hon. member to introduce such an amendment was contested. It was considered seriously; it was considered overnight, and Mr. Speaker Michener ruled, in line with what I have just said regarding this proposed amendment, that it was correct in form and it was covered so far as its provisions were concerned by the general nature of the resolution that had preceded the bill brought in by the government.
As I say, Mr. Speaker, there are many instances, but this is the most recent one I have been able to find concerning which a point of order was raised. The point of order having been raised, the matter having been considered thoroughly by Mr. Speaker Michener, he concluded his remarks by saying:
As I say, it appears to me to meet the precedents and the rules of the house and therefore I am prepared to allow the amendment.
I suggest that the amendment my colleague has now moved is on all fours with the amendment that was moved on May 12, 1959, which was allowed on that occasion by Mr. Speaker Michener, and this amendment should likewise be allowed.


Thomas Rodney Berger: Mr. Speaker, may I say a word on the point of order which has been raised, dealing principally with the objection that has been suggested which is based on the allegation that section 23 is no longer in force. Section 23 provides that at any time before January 1, 1948 the governor in council may, if he deems it advisable, do certain things. If the amendment were one, or if there were a motion before Your Honour which simply provided for the deletion of the words "before January 1, 1948" from the legislation, there would be no question whatever that the legislation would be still in force. In fact, Your Honour, I suggest that this house, when it passed the Interpretation Act, realized there was a vast difference between the provisions of a statute which might be repealed and the provisions of a statute which might for one reason or another cease to have effect, because in section 11 of the Interpretation Act parliament dealt with the question of the operation of statutes, and in section 19 of the Interpretation Act parliament dealt with the repeal of statutes.
The minister might argue that this particular provision in section 23 has become

obsolete, but it is a well established principle that a law is not repealed by becoming obsolete. I cite as authority for that proposition the tenth edition of Maxwell on the Interpretation of Statutes. Maxwell in that well known work points out that trial by battle, which was established under a statute of Henry II in the twelfth century, had become obsolete by 1819, and yet it was deemed by the courts at that time to be still in force.
I am not suggesting that the legislation passed by the previous government in the immediate post-war years, or any of it, is as obsolete as trial by battle; but I do suggest that the principle is still the same and ought to be applied in this case; that section 23 is still in force and cannot be regarded as having been wiped from the statute books, and can be subjected to such an amendment as the hon. member for Danforth (Mr. Scott) has moved.


George Harris Hees: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member seems to be worried by what he believes to be the inability of the government under this present act to make loans to other governments. That is not the case. This can be done and is being done at the present time under section 21(a). As an example of the type of loans I am speaking about which can be made under section 21(a), there is a loan outstanding at the present time, made recently to India, for $25 million of credit, and $15 million of credit extended to Pakistan, both under section 21(a). So the government, under section 21(a) as it now operates, and as it has operated since December 1960, is able to extend credit, that is make loans to other governments, which is, as I understand it, the main purpose of the old section 22 as it was called when the act was first passed, and which later became section 23. So my purpose in rising immediately after the dinner adjournment was to try to explain to the hon. member the kind of things this act now can and is doing along the lines that he feels are most desirable.


Thomas Speakman Barnett: Mr. Speaker, may I rise on a point of order. I would suggest that the minister is debating the amendment before Your Honour has ruled as to whether it is admissible.


Mr. Speaker:: I was wondering whether the minister was taking off from the point at which I interrupted him earlier. I can see he feels that what he is saying is relevant to the proposition put forward by the mover of this amendment; but I do find some difficulty in relating it to the point of order, that is, whether this amendment is actually relevant to the bill under consideration or not. I would ask the minister to limit himself to that point.

Export Credits Insurance Act


George Harris Hees: I think I have said all I need to on this matter.


Gordon Minto Churchill: I thought that what the Minister of Trade and Commerce was saying is very helpful to the house. The amendment which I have before me reads as follows:
This house declines to proceed with Bill C-63, because its terms do not include an extension of the assistance to the governments of other countries provided in section 23 of the Export Credits Insurance Act.
As I understood the Minister of Trade and Commerce, he was pointing out to us that this amendment was quite unnecessary because the present bill does provide assistance to the governments of other countries as shown in section 21(a) of the act, which reads-


Thomas Speakman Barnett: May I rise on a point of order? I must object that the leader of the house is debating the amendment.


Gordon Minto Churchill: I am speaking to the point of order.


Mr. Speaker:: The leader of the house .is now raising the point whether this amendment would introduce something into the act which is considered to be superfluous, and, for that reason out of order. As I follow his argument, it is a new argument on the question of the admissibility of the amendment.


Gordon Minto Churchill: That is it, precisely, Mr. Speaker. I should like to continue to read section 21(l)(a) which is as follows:
The board, having regard to the limitations imposed by section 14, is of opinion that a proposed contract of insurance will impose upon the corporation a liability for a term or in an amount in excess of that which the corporation would normally undertake in relation to any one contract, exporter, commodity or country-
The proposed amendment suggests an extension of assistance to the governments of other countries. It certainly is superfluous. It is a repetition of what is already contained in the statutes.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I think Your Honour should compare what the Minister of Veterans Affairs has now said with what the Minister of Trade and Commerce said a few months ago. The hon. gentleman pointed out that part II, in which section 21 is contained, is the part which provides for loans to governments.


An hon. Member:: No, section 21(l)(a).


Stanley Howard Knowles: That is not loans to governments. Section 21(l)(a) guarantees contracts by importers in other countries. We are concerned about carrying forward the principle of loans to governments of other countries
which, the Minister of Trade and Commerce has already said, was in part II, which is covered mainly by section 23.
I accept Your Honour's ruling that the leader of the house has raised a point which is germane, but I contend that his submission that the amendment is superfluous is wrong because of the distinction between importers, as in the bill before us, and governments, as contained in the amendment.


George Harris Hees: To answer the point raised by the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre, may I say that when amended as proposed by the bill now before the house, the act would make it possible for other governments to deal directly with the Export Credits Insurance Corporation regarding loans and credits.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Where does it say that?


Mr. Macdonald (Rosedale):: On that point of order, I submit to you, Mr. Speaker, and to the house that the reference to country in section 21(l)(a) relates rather to the direction in which the various loans will be made and is not necessarily a reference to a foreign sovereign state as such. The point referred to is perhaps one to which several members on this side of the house have already referred today, namely the fact that the corporation appears to be putting too many of its eggs into one basket-one country, in this case, communist China. I submit that is the sense in which the word is used in that section, not the sense in which the leader of the house used it.


Robert Jardine McCleave: May I draw Your Honour's attention to Beauchesne's fourth edition, page 281, citation 394(1) dealing with the principle of relevancy in amendments. It says, in part that an amendment must not attach conditions to the second reading of a bill. I suggest that the purpose of this amendment is to say that because such and such is not being done the bill should not be proceeded with. It certainly comes within the spirit of the statement in Beauchesne.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Read citation 382.


Mr. Speaker:: I wish to thank hon. members for having advanced arguments in this connection. First of all, in order to dispose of the argument raised by the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre in citing a ruling by His Honour Speaker Michener on May 12, 1959, I would draw to the hon. member's attention a certain distinction which the Speaker at that time indicated was very germane to the nature of the amendment then before him.
I read from page 427 of the Journals- the second last paragraph on the page. The first sentence reads:	"It is a resolution
declaratory of a principle adverse to the main principle of the bill". This is not applicable

Export Credits Insurance Act in my estimation in this instance. That would therefore dispose of the precedent as not being applicable.
Considering this question generally, it is competent for a member on second reading of a bill who desires to place on record any special reasons for not agreeing to the second reading of a bill to move as an amendment to the question a resolution declaratory of some principle adverse to, or differing from the principles, policy or provisions of the bill, or expressing opinions as to any circumstances connected with its introduction or prosecution or otherwise opposed to its progress. I suggest that this amendment is not one adverse to a principle of the bill, but is one otherwise opposed to its progress or seeking information on its progress. Those words are generally contained in Beauchesne's fourth edition citation 382. I would point out to hon. members that it is a fundamental principle that no matter ought to be raised in a debate on a question which would be irrelevant if moved as an amendment, and that an amendment cannot be used for importing arguments which would be irrelevant to the main question. In this regard I would refer hon. member's to May's sixteenth edition at page 421. Again, citing May at page 531, I quote:
The principle of relevancy in an amendment governs every such motion. The amendment must "strictly relate to the bill which the house, by its order, has resolved upon considering".
The proposed amendment clearly states that it has reference to section 23 of the main act. No provision can be found in the bill before the house which is related to that clause. Accordingly, if the provisions of section 23 of the act can be brought before the house by virtue of an amendment, I would submit that other sections of the main act could also be brought forward in the same fashion. Therefore, I would submit that the amendment does not oppose any principle or provision of the bill; in other words, the subject matter of the proposal is a substantive motion and an entirely new question unrelated to the bill before us. In the present instance I do not consider this amendment relevant to the bill being discussed; it is rather relevant to the act itself. But at the moment I respectfully submit that we are not discussing the act; we are discussing Bill No. C-63.
It is my opinion that the rule of relevancy is completely disregarded. If every bill that was discussed by this house was subject to amendments of this type which could stipulate that the bill did not contain enough and should contain something else, then there would be no relevancy at all.
In this connection I would refer hon. members to a ruling by Mr. Speaker Macdonald,

reported at page 237 of the Journals under the date of November 14, 1949. He said:
On the second reading of an amending bill . .. it is the principle of the amending bill, and not the principle of the act to be amended, which is the "business under consideration". The discussion must therefore relate exclusively to the principle of the amending bill.
May I add that here, where we are referring to "discussion", we also include "amendments", which must relate exclusively to the principle of the amending bill.
In addition, if I may cite a ruling of Mr. Speaker Michener on December 13, 1957 while the house was considering a motion for the second reading of Bill No. 232 to amend the Income Tax Act, the then Speaker, as reported at page 2313 of Hansard, said:
This is an act to amend the Income Tax Act and it is relevant, as I understand the precedents, to discuss the sections of the Income Tax Act which are to be amended by this bill but not to review the act as a whole.
With the greatest respect to the mover and seconder of this amendment, I am of the opinion that that would be the purpose of their amendment and that it is irrelevant, and I so rule.


Mr. G. R. Muir (Lisgar):: Mr. Speaker, now that you have so skilfully cleared away the verbiage of this proposed amendment, I should like at this time to bring the house back to the discussion of the bill itself. I should like to speak briefly on this bill, because I feel that if Canada is to continue to prosper as a nation we must put forth every effort to increase and to enlarge our export trade both in primary and in secondary products. I feel very strongly that nothing should be left undone to continue our efforts to promote our exports, and I welcome the increase in funds from $200 million to $400 million which is to be made available to Exports Credits Insurance Corporation. The success of the operations of the corporation is best illustrated by the fact that over $1 billion of export sales have been insured since the first policy was issued by the corporation. During that time the corporation has been able to make a modest profit on transactions and has operated at no expense to the Canadian taxpayers.
Mr. Speaker, three years ago I had the privilege of sponsoring in this house a bill of incorporation setting up the Exports Finance Corporation. This was the first company in Canada to enter the export finance business. The charter of this company has recently been acquired by the chartered banks of Canada and is working closely with the Export Credits Insurance Corporation in promoting the sales of our goods and services abroad on a credit basis.

To a great extent we in Canada have overcome the problems of production, and I know that this is particularly true of agriculture. But it is in the area of distribution that much remains to be done. I think this government has faced up to this problem and that both industry and agriculture have benefited under the capable salesmanship of the Minister of Trade and Commerce and the Minister of Agriculture, both of whom have been inspired by the able leadership of our Prime Minister.
Recent sales of wheat have been encouraging. However, when one considers the levies imposed on our wheat by the European common market countries and the implications posed by the entry of our best wheat customer into that market, there is every reason to believe that Canada's grain business will suffer immeasurably unless we are able to find additional markets. I should like to point out to hon. members that while our wheat enters Britain free of duty, the levies imposed by the E.C.M. countries, according to the latest figures, are: Germany $1.94 a bushel; France $1.11 a bushel; the Netherlands $1.15 a bushel; Belgium $1.12 a bushel; and Italy $1.47 a bushel. It may come as a surprise to some Canadians to know that in the case of Germany, for instance, the cost of our wheat to the millers is approximately $4 a bushel. This represents a staggering hurdle for our wheat exports to surmount. Is it any wonder that our Prime Minister called for serious consideration by Britain of her entry into that market?
When we were debating the resolution when introducing this bill, the hon. member for Assiniboia pretended to express amazement that the minister did not have certain information in regard to the China wheat sale. Actually he was out of order, because the China wheat sale had nothing to do with the Export Credits Insurance Corporation. However, he expressed amazement that the Minister of Trade and Commerce could not give some answer which was statistical. He also condemned an hon. member this afternoon for his opposition to the sale as reported in certain newspaper articles. The sale was announced by the Minister of Agriculture, and as the hon. member for Assiniboia well knows-and surely he has not forgotten when the announcement was made-he called it a big hoax. He has had ample opportunity since that time to get any information with regard to the China wheat sale from the appropriate minister. I should like to suggest to him that any information he does get from the Minister of Agriculture he should pass on to his new leader, who seems to have a serious lack of understanding as far as agriculture is concerned. Hon. members well know that during 27507-3-36
Export Credits Insurance Act the throne speech debate just ended, in which the Leader of the Opposition spoke for three hours and five minutes-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


George Robson Muir: -no reference was made by him to agriculture.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I would suggest
respectfully to the hon. member that he come back to the principle of this bill. It is not a very long bill, and I would suggest he confines his remarks to it.


George Robson Muir: With great respect, Mr. Speaker, the discussion on this bill both at resolution stages and on second reading has been a real free-wheeling debate. I know you have not been in the chair all of the time, but we have been discussing everything from agriculture to, well-


An hon. Member:: Peanuts.


George Robson Muir: Yes.


Mr. Speaker:: Order.


George Robson Muir: However, I will abide by your ruling, Mr. Speaker. In that regard it is interesting to read from an article appearing in the current copy of Time magazine. If you will bear with me I think I can point out to you the reason why I am quoting this particular paragraph. The article in Time magazine of October 12 states as follows:
About the only base Pearson did not touch was agriculture; he lost his notes on the subject in the 80-page sheaf on his desk.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. That may be all very interesting and appropriate under other circumstances. However, I think it does not lead to any progress in the discussion of this bill.


An hon. Member:: Filibuster.


Mr. Speaker:: I would ask the hon. member kindly to come back to the principle of Bill No. C-63.


An hon. Member:: Send him a copy of the bill.


George Robson Muir: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As a matter of fact, I had thought that was a rather weak explanation anyway. I think it would have been much more appropriate had it said that somebody else had called the tune but the Leader of the Opposition had lost the music.


An hon. Member:: Joker.


George Robson Muir: Mr. Speaker, you have borne with me very well and I appreciate it greatly.
I wish to bring to the attention of the members of this house the seriousness of

Export Credits Insurance Act our export situation unless we are prepared to make available the credits provided in this bill. This is so because of the risk involved in trade at any time, particularly export trade where political as well as economic situations must be taken into account. It is reassuring to know that the government through the Export Credits Insurance Corporation is assisting in making it not only more desirable but also more feasible for primary and secondary products to find markets throughout the world.
(Translation):


Mr. Marcel Lessard (Lake St. John):: Mr. Speaker, I am happy to see that the government is taking another step towards the establishment of that export bank we, of the Social Credit party, are advocating.
It was also a source of great satisfaction for me to hear the hon. member for Danforth (Mr. Scott) suggest that the government increase the number of its low interest loans to foreign countries. That would be one way of helping other countries buy our surpluses. It would lower the level of unemployment in our country and it would help us eliminate our present trade deficits.
However, the thing that most surprised both my colleagues and myself was to hear the hon. member advocate interest free loans and support his suggestion by quoting a recent statement of the vice president of the world bank.
Loans without interest, that is what we, in this corner of the house, are fighting for, Mr. Speaker. However, we recommend that such loans be made available not only to foreign countries which are economically weak but to all Canadians as well.
It would seem that we are not the only ones to preach what is supposed to be a utopian theory and that, in the past few days, we have succeeded in contaminating all members of this house.
Whatever the case may be, I can tell the hon. member that the Social Credit party is in favour of loans without interest; indeed, we feel such a policy would be beneficial not only to the Canadian economy but to every private individual in the country.
Perhaps the minister should consider the advisability of changing the title of the statute since he himself cautiously admitted during the debate on Friday afternoon, that this legislation actually deals with banking operations, following our banks' refusal to engage in this type of operations.
Therefore, I think that if he admits in this house that the law is moving towards a banking system, the time has come to recognize

it. I hope that before long he will submit to the house a bill to create an export-import bank, something that everyone wants and which seems to be the practical solution to Canada's economic problems.
Besides, by doing this, we would only follow the example set by other countries, we would only follow in the wake of other great countries which have their export-import bank, England and Germany for instance.
Mr. Speaker, I think we are all in agreement on the principle of the bill and that we could go on to another matter shortly.
(Text):


John (Jack) Henry Horner: Mr. Speaker, I do not intend to speak very long. However, I should just like to say a few words with regard to wheat sales. Much has been said on this bill to amend the Export Credits Insurance Act. This afternoon the leader of the Social Credit party made in the house some statement with regard to wheat exports and wheat sales. He stated that in the last five years of the Liberal administration more wheat had been sold than in the last five years of the administration of this government. From my seat I made the statement, although perhaps it was out of order, that this statement was not correct.
I felt that perhaps I should take a look into the record in order to ascertain whether I was speaking off the top of my head or whether I was right. I have before me the Canadian wheat board report for the year ended 1960-61. In the back of the book, in table 7, there is given a lengthy list, covering the years from 1937 to 1961, of Canada's wheat exports. If one takes the trouble to do a little bit of arithmetic he realizes that in the last five years of the Liberal administration they sold 1,460 million bushels of wheat. In the last five years of this government's administration we sold 1,604 million bushels of wheat or approximately 30 million bushels more per year. I am certain that the western farmers greatly appreciate this fact.
I heard this statement uttered throughout the spring of 1961-and I will refer to the hon. member for Timiskaming later on- knowing it was strictly for the birds that it was strictly a matter of taking figures and playing with them. I am pleased to have this opportunity of putting the correct figures on the record. The hon. member for Timiskaming, who has just now added some interjection which I did not catch, dealt at great length with the disparity between economic production in western Canada and that in eastern Canada. I shall deal with that subject perhaps at another time when it is more in order to do so than it is at present. I wish to tell-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I think we were importing from one debate to another when we were getting into these latter subjects.


John Robert (Jack) Nicholson: Mr. Speaker, when the resolution was before the committee I expressed concern over a question of principle involved in this new bill. I stated then-I might say that I have not talked with any hon. members who differ from this opinion and I have spoken with a number of them-that I did not see how there could be any opposition to the principle of the raising of the limit or the ceiling of credits which the Export Credits Insurance Corporation might extend in order to expand exports. But I was concerned and I still am concerned about the fact that I now find that this corporation, which was set up in 1944 to insure against foreign exchange risks and other matters of that sort, is going into the commercial banking field. The first move was made in 1959 when the limit was raised to $200 million, and loans in this major field were then predicated upon the approval or authorization of the governor in council. When authorized by the governor in council the corporation may guarantee, may lend money and may do these other things.
In the bill before us it is proposed that the governor in council jointly with the Export Credits Insurance Corporation will go one step further. The corporation will now be able to take notes in their own name from the importer in the foreign country. The Canadian exporter will be completely bypassed. Furthermore, it is proposed that the corporation can turn around and sell or discount the paper they have taken in their own name without the Canadian exporter coming into the picture at all. That is a most extraordinary situation if we study it, and my concern is not that we are going to expand credit from $200 million to $400 million but that we are going to put an insurance corporation into the commercial banking field. What is more, it is a field of banking where the government comes into the picture and where political pressures or influences may come into the picture. That is as clear as it can be. It is only when authorized by the governor in council that these moves can be made. It is not the bank that is instituting these things; it is the government.
Take the situation at the present time, for example. Loans totalling nearly $200 million have been made or committed and, according to the figures given by the Minister of Trade and Commerce yesterday, $107 million of that amount is for wheat sales alone and wheat sales to communist countries. I am not opposed to the sale of wheat to communist countries or to anyone else if they need food, 27507-3-36i
Export Credits Insurance Act but $107 million of this amount is for the sale of wheat alone under the theory that this is a loan to expand our exports to these countries. We are expanding one class of exports only, primarily wheat.
It does seem to me that it would be much more sensible if this additional credit facility were left in the hands of a banking institution. We do not necessarily have to create an export-import bank such as they have in the United States but surely by an extension of the provisions of the Industrial Development Bank Act we could cover a situation of this kind and remove it from the field of politics or political pressure completely. It is a matter of serious concern, Mr. Speaker, that we should find the government going into commercial banking when there is the possibility of political influence in the background.


Barry Mather: Mr. Speaker, it seems to me that, as on the resolution stage of this measure, we have got into a detailed debate on something concerning which I think all parties are in general agreement in that they are in favour of the legislation. I think we are wasting time and the question should be called.


Mr. R. C. Honey (Durham):: Mr. Speaker, I want to be very brief in this matter and initially I wish to associate myself with the remarks of the hon. member for Assiniboia and other members on this side of the house expressing approval in principle of the bill and the expansion of credit to facilitate exports from Canada. I do not want to repeat the various commodities to which other members have referred in supporting the bill but I want to say this to the Minister of Trade and Commerce. I respectfully direct his attention to consideration of the use of the expanded credit facilities to bring about a larger market abroad for tobacco grown in Canada. In saying this I want to compliment the minister in general for what I personally conceive to have been a good job done by him during his term of office.
In my riding of Durham and in other areas of central and southern Ontario as well as elsewhere in Canada the growing of tobacco is an important industry. It is an industry that can facilitate our economy generally particularly if export markets for tobacco can be located and developed. If we can locate and develop export markets we will have a tremendous opportunity to throw away the existing bonds of acreage control which now govern farmers engaged in the production of tobacco and thus expand this industry substantially in Ontario and other parts of Canada. I say that this is one very useful industry in which this additional

Export Credits Insurance Act credit could be employed and I commend this thought to the minister for his consideration.


Mr. Charles M. Drury (St. Antoine-Westmount):: Mr. Speaker, as this is the first time I have had the opportunity of rising with you in the chair may I add my felicitations and congratulations on your election to the numerous ones already extended to you by other hon. members. I have already spoken on the resolution stage of the bill and my remarks now will be very brief, I hope.
With respect to my remarks on the resolution I indicated at that time, as have a number of other speakers, approval of the method in which the business of the corporation has been conducted since its inception. I repeat that, and my suggestion tonight is rather a logical conclusion to this summation. The minister in introducing the bill said that it had two main purposes. One was to increase the authorization and scope of the business of the corporation. The second was the elimination of unnecessary red tape and government formalities. In respect of the latter I might suggest we look in particular at the financial-if one may call it that

history of the corporation.
The work of the corporation, or its functions, may be divided into roughly three categories. One is that of insurance to which the hon. member for Vancouver Centre (Mr. Nicholson) referred. In respect of the insurance function the act originally provided that the insurance business would be conducted entirely by the officers of the corporation and the board of directors. Subsequently when the business of the corporation was to be expanded, an additional provision was made whereby for business which was assumed to be outside the normal course of the operation of the corporation, namely in respect of special commodities or in respect of some sums which were in themselves, or singly very large, and in respect of countries to which the proportion of credit seemed to be unduly high, then additional business could be conducted solely upon authorization of the governor in council; and while the powers of the corporation to transact business on its own was limited to the sum of $100 million, an equal sum was provided for the transaction of business under authorization of the governor in council.
Subsequently there has been an increase in the authorized subscribed capital of the corporation with the result that the corporation can now transact business on its own in the amount of $200 million as against the original $100 million, and the amount of

business subject to the authorization of the governor in council has been raised to $200 million.
The proposal in the bill tonight is to raise the ceiling, for the type of business which requires the authorization of the governor in council, from $200 million to $400 million.
I would suggest to the minister that in view of the excellent record of the corporation, and having in mind that the business of the corporation appears to have expanded very substantially right across the entire spectrum of the kind of business it does, it would be more appropriate, and would cut out a considerable measure of the government red tape for which the minister rightly has some disdain, if instead of increasing the authorization under which business can be done with the authority of the governor in council the authorization could be increased under which the corporation can do business in its own name.
Unfortunately I have not a specific amendment to suggest but would merely like to commend this to the attention of the minister.
(Translation):


Mr. Maurice  Coie@Chicoutimi: Mr. Speaker, I feel that the majority of the hon. members of this house agree upon the principle of the bill.
We are particularly interested in two aspects of the measure, the financial aspect and the social aspect.
If, for example, this legislation is such that it will open to us the doors of South America especially, then it becomes hard to reject, because it must be realized that South America is made up of countries with which we have much in common on the spiritual plane and to which we must give special assistance.
Therefore, this legislation must enable us to have our doors wide open for South American countries. That is why, as regards the principle of the bill, I think we agree.
However, the financial side of the legislation must also be taken into account. I do not think it wise that the funds required to increase the social capital provided for under the legislation should be drawn from the tax capital. We must use the funds available at the Bank of Canada, because it is the country's bank, and its funds must be used especially to increase the social capital of the Export Credits Insurance Corporation.
Those are, Mr. Speaker, the two points I wanted to raise concerning this bill, its financial aspect and its social aspect.

Export Credits Insurance Act
(Text):


Mr. W. H. McMillan (Welland):: Mr. Speaker, the resolution stage provided for a bill to double the amount of insurance available under section 21 of the act and to provide further for certain changes in connection with its administration. I suppose this is a minor point, but under section 14 of Bill C-63 there is a provision for a change in the liability of the corporation. We did not have notice of that and I am glad to have an opportunity to talk about section 14 as otherwise I would be out of order.
When speaking the other day on the resolution stage the minister said we should go back to our constituencies and call to the attention of small exporters that the facilities provided by the act would be freely available to them. I believe this should be done but I have found that the small occasional exporter, such as the man who might sell three, four or five carloads of pulpwood or two or three carloads of processed pulp to the United States, is not aware that he can qualify under section 14 of the act.
I also found that there is some confusion in the wording of the act. For instance the word "exporter" has three or four definitions. "Exporter" as it applies to section 14 and to most of the act is defined as one who exports or agrees to export goods from Canada. In section 13 this definition is enlarged to include Her Majesty in right of Canada.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I am wondering
whether the hon. member is going to produce any argument in this regard because it seems to me he is embarking on consideration of various sections of the act and not on consideration of the bill. At this stage we are discussing the principle of the bill, which is to increase the capital from $200 million to $400 million and also to carry out certain administrative amendments. I find a little difficulty in following the argument of the hon. member at this stage. He may have a point that is quite related at a later stage, but if he is only using this as an illustration of his argument on the principle under discussion then he may continue. On the other hand if his argument is going to be along the lines he is suggesting, perhaps he could defer it.


William Hector McMillan: I was just bringing it up in so far as it referred to small exporters, and I know that some of them, in written legal opinion, have been told that they did not qualify under the act in that they were not regularly employed as exporters. I am willing to defer that question to a later time when this bill is under consideration in committee. However, Mr. Speaker, I would say that this act has been a good one. It was introduced into this house in 1944 and helped
to make Canada the third trading nation in the world. I think we were the first nation, on a per capita basis, in this respect.
I think it is all the more important, therefore, to bring this measure forward now in order to do everything we can to help our exporters, because in this country one in every five jobs depends upon our export trade. It is all the more important to do this at the present time because our position in world trade has fallen from third to eighth or ninth place.
I should like to ask the minister, in regard to exports to Cuba, whether any use has been made of this act by anybody. The minister explained the export of wheat to China very satisfactorily yesterday. I should also like to know, when the minister replies, whether or not the National Steamships' ships sold to Cuba were in any way sold under this act; also, whether we have received any payment in respect of those ships, and who will be assuming the loss, if any has to be assumed.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Chown in the chair.
Clause 1 agreed to.
On clause 2-Limit of liability under contracts.
Arthur Laing: Mr. Chairman, in connection with clause 2 the important point, of course, is the change from $200 million to $400 million. I think this is an appropriate time for us to have a statement from the minister in respect to the priorities of our exports. In the discussion thus far there has been a great deal of attention given to the export of grains and raw materials of various kinds. I would have thought that in a measure of this kind we should first of all endeavour to assist the export of Canadian products abroad which contain as high a content of Canadian labour as possible. I think my hon. friend from Okanagan Boundary made that statement, and I saw him some time ago applaud wildly when the statement was made that the record to date was good. I say to him that as far as his own area is concerned, rather than supporting the sale abroad of Okanagan apples- they require no credit, of course; they are of such high quality-he should be much more interested in the sale of mechanical giraffes. My hon. friend from that area has a firm that not only invented a machine but has sold it, I think, widely around the world, which carries men up to the tops of poles, and so on, to put on wires. I think they are in Ontario as well.
I am asking the minister now whether any attention is given to selectivity so far as the

Export Credits Insurance Act extension of credit is concerned, so that we can as far as possible sell those products which are invented in Canada and are new to the countries to which we sell them; in other words, give the corporation in Canada a leg up in that market in connection with articles that are so good that thereafter the country will demand them and find the money to pay for them.
It seems to me this should be the first interest of this corporation, rather than the unloading of vast surpluses of raw materials.
I regret very much that in the experience we have had thus far the great proportion of the credit extended seems to have been for the unloading of surplus materials which we could not otherwise sell. I am not disparaging the sale of wheat, but I know something about farming and I wish to tell hon. members that I saw in the area of the Peace river country not very long ago one farmer with a considerable amount of machinery, one man, who this year swept the crop off 755 acres. This is not maintaining a great number of Canadian homes.
If we wish to take care of the unemployment situation in this country we have to emphasize and advance quickly those goods which employ an increasing amount of Canadian labour in their manufacture.


Mr. McDonald (Hamilton South):: Mr. Chairman, I was very interested in the remarks of the hon. member from Vancouver South, but I would point out to him that the assistance of credit from this corporation is available to everyone in the export business who solicits help. Speaking of priority, I should like to ask the minister this question. Under section 21(a) of this act, where it is necessary for the governor in council to extend long term credits, is there anything new in regard to the proposed sale of $30 million worth of railway cars of high Canadian labour content which are manufactured in Hamilton? Also, has the corporation given any consideration or discussed with National Steel Car of Hamilton their negotiations with the government of Argentina, South America, so as to ascertain whether it will be feasible to extend long term credit to that government? I understand National Steel Car of Hamilton is negotiating in this respect.
I think this is a prime indication that our government is not only looking after the interests of the wheat farmer and the agricultural part of the community, but has been actively engaged in helping manufacturers of heavy equipment to try and get into the markets of the world with the assistance of long term credit.
I would point out that section 21(a) is the only part of the act under which the governor

in council is required to give authorization. The rest of the act may be acted upon by the corporation without this authorization.


George Harris Hees: Mr. Chairman, if I can keep current with these questions, I should like to do as I did at the resolution stage and answer first the question of the hon. member for Vancouver South. The hon. member expressed concern that the facilities of the corporation under this act are used mostly to dispose of surplus commodities, as he rather disparagingly refers to them.


George James McIlraith: Not disparagingly.


George Harris Hees: He was rather downgrading them, as I understood it. I should like to ask him, and any hon. members of the official opposition, to stand up and say if they are against the assistance which this government has given to the sale of wheat to many countries of the world. I have heard them make, for a long time now, and it makes me a little annoyed to keep hearing them over and over again, as many snide cracks and disparaging remarks, it seems, as they possibly can against our assisting wheat farmers to get rid of their wheat, for which we are paid. We are not giving away any of our wheat surpluses.


Hazen Robert Argue: That was Social Credit.


George Harris Hees: We are being paid for them, and the arrangement is greatly beneficial to the farmers of Canada. I should like to ask hon. members on the other side to tell us once and for all whether they are in favour of assistance to our wheat sales or whether they are not. If they are not, let them get on their feet and say so.


Arthur Laing: Because my name has been brought into this argument by the minister I think I might say a word or two. He said I had been downgrading farmers and speaking in a snide voice. I did none of those things, as hon. members well know. I did suggest that we should have priorities and that priority should be given to the expansion of export of those products which have a high labour content. I want to tell the minister that I personally am in favour of the sale of all Canadian commodities abroad, including wheat, but let us have an insistence upon those things which employ most Canadian families and keep most Canadians at work.


George Harris Hees: I am glad the hon. member brought that up because the operation of section 21(l)(a), which this government brought into operation to provide a service to exporters and business people in this country of ours, does precisely that. It was a service for which they had asked the government of

the party to which the hon. member belongs for many years without any results whatever. They asked the government for it in those days and were turned down. Finally, we produced a long term financial arrangement, and if the hon. member would just read this act instead of just talking about it, he could see what the requirements are. The basic requirement in section 21(l)(a) with regard to assistance for long term financing is that there must be at least an 80 per cent content of Canadian parts or products.
I should like to remind the hon. member again that in the operation of this section this government is providing the businessmen and exporters of this country with a service equal to that provided by any government in the world, if not better. That is something which the former government steadfastly refused to do, and the result of this neglect was to handicap the exporters, manufacturers and shippers of this country. It was a case of refusing to meet their legitimate demands. By taking the action we have, assistance has been given to Canadian producers of capital goods-goods with a high labour content- in selling over $50 million worth of their products.
At the present time negotiations are actively being conducted with regard to a further $75 million worth of such products, and we hope that sales will be made. Such sales never could have been made but for the policy being followed by the present government. I want the hon. member to know that since it began operating in 1944 significant results have been obtained in just those categories to which he made reference. I will mention three different commodities, all of which have a large labour content. This corporation has insured $49,525,000 worth of flour; it has insured $138,312,000 worth of farm machinery; it has insured $116,995,000 worth of steel. I mention only three products, but the list is a very long one indeed. I say to the hon. member for Vancouver South and to other hon. members opposite that this corporation exists for the sole purpose of providing insurance and long term financing covering every type of product. As I said in my opening remarks it covers every type of commodity and every type of producer in all parts of Canada.
Again I ask members of this house to let their constituents know that this service is available to them. We hope they will come to us and use the services of this corporation. The doors of this corporation are always open, as are the doors of the ministers of this government. We exist for the sole purpose of helping Canadian producers help themselves to increase sales of all Canadian commodities
Export Credits Insurance Act in all parts of the world. I assure the hon. member that we are trying to sell every type of commodity in every way we can every day of the week, and I am told by businessmen of this country that the activities of this government compared with those of the government which preceded it are as night is to day-they are the night, and we are the day.


Gordon Campbell Chown: The hon. member for Rose-dale did rise earlier, as a matter of fact, but I did not see him. I apologize for not having done so, because he had hoped to speak on clause 1. I hope the committee will allow him the latitude he deserves because he did not have that opportunity.


Donald Stovel Macdonald: Thank you very much. I wish to address a question to the minister with regard to the term "capital surplus" which occurs in the clause and also with regard to the financial position of the corporation. What function does the capital surplus perform? In a public commercial corporation I can see it might have some relevance but in this case I would suggest that the entire holding be capitalized as subscribed capital and the category of capital surplus thereby eliminated. There would therefore be no necessity for such words to be used in clause 1 and they could be deleted.


George Harris Hees: I am sorry. It may be the acoustics or in the way the hon. member is speaking, but what he is saying is not clear to me. Perhaps he would repeat what he has said.


Donald Stovel Macdonald: What function does capital surplus represent on the balance sheet of this corporation? I am suggesting to the minister that the entire holding should be represented by the subscribed capital of $10 million. The necessity for carrying a capital surplus account and for introducing the two words in clause 1 might therefore be eliminated. It may be there is some historical or statutory reason for this surplus and I would appreciate the minister's advice on this point.


George Harris Hees: I am advised that the corporation was set up in 1944 in this way for the following reason: the $5 million of capital surplus was there so that if there were any losses in the first few years the actual capital of the corporation would remain intact.
While I am on my feet, I should like to answer the question raised by the hon. member for Hamilton South regarding Argentine box cars. The history of this is that three Canadian box car companies were negotiating with the Argentine railway companies for the sale of box cars valued at some $35 million. There was also a prospect of selling

Export Credits Insurance Act another $25 million worth of Canadian products, which have a very high labour content, and we were doing our best to help these companies under section 21(l)(a). During the negotiations there was a change in the Argentine government and the decision to place orders was deferred. As far as we know at this time, the possibility of Argentina placing orders in Canada for box cars still exists. I was talking to one of the gentlemen concerned just yesterday about it. I know that the negotiations are still active. I can assure the hon. member for Hamilton South, who has been very active in this and shown great interest, and also the hon. member for Pictou, who has shown a tremendous interest along with the hon. member for Hamilton South, and who has seen me many times on a number of occasions, that the corporation and the government are continuing to extend every effort to help in every way they can these three Canadian companies who are trying so hard to land this very important order for box cars which will be of great benefit to the economy as a whole and to employment in general in these three important areas.


Arthur Laing: Mr. Chairman, I do not want to start the minister off on another flaming peroration, although he can start off anyway he likes if it would help us, but I would ask him to tell me where we find in the act reference to the 80 per cent labour content?


George James McIlraith: You cannot; it is not in it.


George Harris Hees: It is not written into the act.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


George Harris Hees: You are talking about a section of the act that you never even bothered using. As another example of the constructive approach of this government to problems of this kind, to make sure that a high Canadian content should be contained in products for which we provide this export financing, it was the decision and the practice of this government that we would not grant this long term financing under section 21(a) to projects which did not contain 80 per cent content.


George James McIlraith: Mr. Chairman, the minister, under the guise of discussing the matter before the committee, has gone into a mass of detail which does much to damage the administration of the act. One of the problems facing exporters and producers in this country at this time is the feeling of uncertainty in the absence of government policies. When we have before the house an amending bill in respect of an act which has worked rather well since its inception in 1944, an amendment on specific points of the act in order to bring it up to date so that it will meet the
[Mr. Hees.l
conditions of 1962 and 1963, instead of making careful statements of policy of the government which could be relied on by industry, we get the inaccurate and confusing loud speeches of the minister, such as the last three he has just made to the committee tonight.
First of all, I want to point out some of the inaccuracies, and I do this for the benefit of his understudy from Oxford, who does not seem to be too familiar with the effect of the operation of the act on the economy of this country, or its implication as evidenced by his little travelogue a few days ago when this measure was at the resolution stage.
The first inaccuracy has to do with his rather windy question, after some orations about the wheat sales in western CanaSa. Since those wheat sales were first announced, two things have become abundantly clear. One is that the government would not give the proper information to the House of Commons. That is supported by the record of the last parliament; and if any hon. member requires further elucidation, he can get it from Hansard of the last parliament.
The other matter which is abundantly clear is that all members of the House of Commons concurred in and approved of the sale of the wheat to China, but some hon. members asked about the irregularity of taking taxpayers money and using it without the approval of the House of Commons for the purpose of granting credit to communist China. That was the point of issue in that transaction, and that is the point that was slurred over by the minister tonight when he asked hon. members sitting opposite the government if they approved those sales. If they had said yes, then he would have come out and said that they approved of this irregularity in guaranteeing the $100 million, and of using public funds improperly instead of using them under the two legal means available to the government in getting that credit. Indeed, at the resolution stage on Friday he indicated that this measure now before us could and would be used to finance this kind of sale, and he indicated the sales to other communist countries which had been dealt with under this act. They are some of the inaccuracies so far.
Then another inaccuracy was in talking about the 80 per cent content requirement. That is not in the legislation. That is something which the government has imported of its own accord into its administration of the act. It is interesting that he has chosen to do it that way rather than to put it in the act. I would suggest to hon. members opposite that if the government is importing conditions of this kind, although I think this one

is satisfactory, when will there be a condition imported that will not be satisfactory?
I suggest that the real question is involved in this clause of the bill and the one following, and that is that we are providing the governor in council with $300 million of authority, to be spent on different competing contractors in this country, which is to be allocated on the say-so of the cabinet to one particular contractor or exporter as against another. There is a very grave danger there. While desirable to over-all trade, under a careless or irresponsible government-and we have heard the speech of the minister at Ghana in the trade field about applying patronage methods-this clause can be very sinister. I think it would better serve the exporters of this country if he would speak carefully and outline what the government's policy is with respect to its administration of this very large sum of money being granted by this house for the benefit of our exporters in order to enable them to compete in export markets. That is the kind of statement we want from the minister.
Then there are other remarks which the minister made about the use of the act and the use the former government made of it; and he went on to say that there was the difference of night and day between the two governments in the whole field of trade. That, Mr. Chairman, is perfectly correct; there is all the difference between night and day. Under the former government there was prosperity in the country. What the exporters required in those days, as anybody who reads the legislation and follows it in relation to the times, and who reads the debates when it was passed, well knows, was insurance because of the currency difficulties of foreign countries. It was not a matter of Canadian exporters not being able to compete in those days with foreign countries; it was a matter of insuring the risk in collecting the money from foreign countries. Indeed, part II of the act still before us dealt with another situation where governments in the war devastated countries were so disorganized that they could not provide the currency because of their exchange difficulties. That is the kind of criterion which had to be the test of legislation in those days.
The minister talks now about the former government's not passing the amending clause to this act. That was not required until the re-establishment of industry in west Germany, Great Britain, Italy and those other countries when they became competitors with our manufacturers and exporters. That was the reason section 21(a) became so necessary and so desirable. But that section 21(a) was not required when those countries had their industries devastated and were not in a position to supply world demands.
Export Credits Insurance Act
Hence when the minister makes loose and careless statements about the former government in relation to this legislation, he shows a lack of understanding of the problems affecting industry. That is the kind of thing that destroys confidence in the country and indeed contributes to the economic difficulties in which this country finds itself. While the minister's excursions into some of his barnstorming political talks may be interesting and amusing to members of the committee, perhaps he could arrange another forum for them-


Wallace Bickford (Wally) Nesbitt: Don't be bitter.


George James McIlraith: -and could here bring before hon. members matters which are relevant to the bill before us and which would do something to assist production in this country and the exporters of this country. Indeed, when he was asked a question having to do with assisting exporters who would provide a large amount of employment in this country, I would have thought he would have been very careful to deal responsibly with the question, as the problem of lack of employment for people in this country must surely weigh heavily on the minds of all hon. members on all sides of this chamber.


George Harris Hees: I was most interested to hear the hon. member for Ottawa West harking back to what he would consider the good old days, the 22 years when patronage really ran rampant. From listening to him talk, you would think we were doing the kind of things that happened when they were in power, when deals were made with specific firms that were friendly and so on. That is something that does not happen any more.


Mr. Crestohl:: That was when the act was born.


George Harris Hees: I wish to tell hon. members that it was made very clear to all Canadian producers that any terms which are made available to any one producer are available to all producers of that commodity. I know the hon. member is amazed to hear that statement, as that sort of thing never happened during the 22 years during which his party was in power. However, it happens now and it has happened under this government ever since we took over office and cleaned things up five years ago.
The hon. member says he wishes I would explain carefully to him and those on the other side exactly the terms under which people can get this extremely valuable export financing. If he wishes to know what the comparison is in the minds of businessmen
558	HOUSE OF
Export Credits Insurance Act and producers in Canada as to the satisfaction given by this government and the corporation operating under this government, and what happened five years ago, all he needs to do is to ask any five, 10, 15, 20 or 100 producers. They will all tell you straight who they think are on the side of the producers and who they think were out to block them in the old days when nobody in Ottawa seemed to pay very much attention to them.
I wish to tell the hon. member this. If he wishes to know how this corporation, or anything else which this government operates, is functioning, all he has to do is to search for the information or ask me or ask the president of the corporation, or anybody else connected with it. There are two pamphlets that are available to him. If he had only the initiative or the interest to ask for them, he could get them by going down or by asking me and I would have had it sent up, a little pamphlet called "Government Export Financing". All he had to do was to turn over a couple of pages and here he would find a heading written plainly, with black on yellow that anybody can read, "Eligibility for Financing" under which appears the following:
The guiding rules that determine the eligibility of transactions for financing are:
1.	that the extended credit terms are clearly necessary and justifiable;
2.	that the transaction gives promise of continuing export trade;
3.	that the Canadian content is of a high order, in the range of 80 per cent or better;
4.	that the transaction gives rise to significant employment and industrial benefits in Canada;
5.	that the export transaction is substantial in value;
6.	that the foreign buyer and the country of purchase have a satisfactory credit standing.
Those points are made. That also is written very clearly at page 16 of another very valuable pamphlet entitled, "Export Credits Insurance Corporation, What it is and How it Operates". It is free for the asking. It is in both of those pamphlets for anybody who wishes to ask for them. Hence, once a proposed transaction meets these requirements and it is granted to any one firm who may inquire about it, it is available to any firm or any producer in Canada who shows an interest in having those terms made available to him.


Frank Howard: At the outset, Mr. Chairman,
inasmuch as this is the first opportunity I have had to say anything in committee, I should like to extend to you on behalf of the members of this party our congratulations on your attaining the office you now hold. We look forward to working with you intimately on all matters over which you will be presiding. Now that this family squabble between
[Mr. Hees.l

the Liberals and the Tories has perhaps reached some sort of end, maybe we can get back to the meat of the subject before us.
First, I should like to say that this selfadoration which the minister heaped all over himself reminds me that perhaps his position is that of acting prime minister today. That is a position to which I am sure he is not objecting. However, it really is a bit sad to hear the minister gloat so openly and so profusely about a particular change that was made in the act in 1960-61, namely section 21(a). He lauded this as one of the most progressive steps that he and his government had made in the field of assisting our exporters in this country.
I just contrast that statement made by the minister with what he had to say on October 12 when this matter was at the resolution stage. The minister, in dealing with section 21(a) about which he is now gloating, admitted that it came into effect by default and that really he or his government had nothing to do with it; that it was not a question of any great desire on the part of the minister to do something proper and correct for our exporters and for the economy of this nation but it was something that arose by default. What does the minister say about it? As found at page 474 of Hansard, when dealing with these great free enterprisers of whom he is so greatly enamoured, he states as follows:
Well, Mr. Chairman, the operation which the Export Credits Insurance Corporation carries out under section 21(a)-
That is the one about which he was gloating a moment ago as being a mark of leadership on his part or on the part of the government.
-was literally forced upon it by the unwillingness of Canadian banks to perform this function for our exporters.
Private enterprise failed. Because private enterprise, so-called, failed, the minister then gloats about it and lauds this as one of the principal things that has been done by his government and condemns the party opposite, which is now the official opposition, for having failed to accomplish something like this in the 22 years in which they were in office. In essence, so far as I am concerned, the Liberals would have done precisely the same thing if they were forced into it, not by way of leadership, design, intimate concern for the exporters of this country, or concern for the undeveloped nations, the one element in the world with which we should be concerning ourselves; no, Mr. Speaker, by default and by default only. I will disregard for the moment these comments on the side that impinge upon my ear. I would gladly deal with them if those making them would do so

in a loud enough voice so that other hon. members could hear them and so that they would get on the record. Let them do it in the proper fashion.
In the clause with which we are now dealing we are concerned and should be concerned with what this parliament can do with respect to assistance to underdeveloped countries. These are the people in the world with whom we are going to have to concern ourselves if we have any concern about world peace at all. These are the countries that are emerging economically, socially and politically. These are countries which are practically stone broke. These are countries to whom we have to give some assistance. These are countries which we have to help along the economic road. These are countries that cannot now afford to buy the things they would like to buy and we as a nation are being niggardly about it. We are complaining about the fact that we are exporting raw materials when we have surpluses of them everywhere and we do nothing worth while except when forced into the position of acting when our great banking and financial institutions fail to act.
All the minister has to do is to read his own words from pages 474 and 475 of Hansard for October 12. Not only should he read them but let them have some meaning for him. If these words really do mean something to you, Mr. Minister, and to your government then you will take some steps to amend this particular section to provide the same things as were provided under section 23 of the act as it existed in 1952 and as was the case prior to 1948. You will take steps to ensure that the governor in council will lend money to other countries that cannot afford to buy our products and thus help them to build up their economies so that their income will be sufficiently large for them to be able to pay for these things eventually.
We have to extend assistance to them and we are not going to assist them and assist our exporters to any marked degree so long as the government persists in carrying on the same sort of verbal fencing that the Liberals did for the 22 years they were in office. Unfortunately that is all you are doing, just gloating about something that you came upon by accident and indicating that this is the sole effort you are putting forward so far as this country is concerned. Again we have these inane gentlemen over here interjecting. I used to be able to call them the gentlemen opposite. I still can in one sense, but while the line of demarcation between us is very thin it is a gulf that will never be bridged so far as I am concerned because this government-I do not know whether my friend
Export Credits Insurance Act realizes it-is only concerned with buttressing the faltering free enterprise system at every opportunity.


Mr. McIntosh:: What would you suggest?


Frank Howard: My friend says, "What would I suggest". I just suggested something.


John (Jack) McIntosh: All I have heard you do is use the word "gloat" about forty times.


Frank Howard: You remind me of my aunt's parrot. All you are concerned about is asking questions. You are not concerned about getting an answer. I will tell my hon. friend the answer if he will listen. I do not know if it will do him any good to listen but I will tell him anyway. I have already told him quite distinctly that we should amend the act to provide precisely what was provided in what was section 23, which the minister's department removed in the consolidation, and make arrangements so that the government of Canada can, and I quote, "make a loan to the government or any agency of the government of any such other country to enable such government or such agency or any person ordinarily resident in such other country to pay the cost of Canadian-produced goods purchased from an exporter or the cost of Canadian services". That is one item.


John (Jack) McIntosh: Do you want us to go against the Speaker's ruling?


Frank Howard: Once again, Mr. Chairman, I appeal to you to protect me against these inanities. As I indicated earlier, the hon. member is like my aunt's parrot. He is not interested in an answer but merely wants to repeat the question.


Mr. Winkler:: A pretty smart parrot.


Frank Howard: I have given an answer, not in my own words but in the words of the section of the Export Credits Insurance Act as found in chapter 105 of the Revised Statutes of Canada, 1952, an answer which was the answer of Canada prior to January 1, 1948, after which time the section no longer had validity. If we had had a Liberal government with any sense about these things they would have re-enacted the section or brought it into force again so that we could have used it. There is one of the answers, one of the things that we suggest.
My friend may interpret the Speaker's ruling differently from me, but I should like very much to have the minister explain to us, in simple, uncomplicated terms so that his own followers can understand, what the government is going to do about this very important question raised initially by my friend from Danforth and mentioned by other hon. members. That important question is,
560	HOUSE OF
Export Credits Insurance Act what can this country, Canada, what can this parliament, a group of minorities, do by co-operation to ensure the highest possible degree of export of Canadian made goods and thus improve our own economic structure and also assist other countries in the world community to participate in economic development?


George Harris Hees: Mr. Chairman, I am very glad to answer that question in the few minutes left this evening. What the hon. member and his colleague from Danforth have asked is that we should provide long term loans to developing countries. This is, as I pointed out earlier, one of the purposes of section 21(a) as it operates at the present time and as it will operate more efficiently when the present bill is passed. I might say that section 21(a) already provides no less than $300 million for this exact purpose. Already contracts under section 21(a) amounting to more than $50 million have been signed and commitments have been given for additional business totalling $75 million, all in developing countries.
As an example of the type of loans being made under section 21(a), I can mention the $25 million credit extended by Canada to India and the $15 million credit to Pakistan. In addition to this amount of aid to developing countries the government assists such countries by Colombo plan aid amounting to $50 million a year, aid to Africa amounting to $10.5 million, aid to the West Indies amounting to $10 million, technical assistance aid to French language commonwealth countries and, lastly, our participation in the international bank for reconstruction and development and its associated organs, one of which is the international development association. The international development association was established to make so-called soft loans, somewhere between a loan and a gift, to the developing countries, and Canada's contribution in this respect is $38 million.
I think that gives a pretty good idea of what this government is doing to help the developing countries about which the hon. member has just spoken. I think all hon. members will agree that Canada today is doing her share in helping these very worthy developing countries to develop and help themselves.
Clause 2 agreed to.

On clause 3-Power to lend or guarantee, etc.
Progress reported.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Mr. Chevrier:: May I ask if there is any change in the order of business as announced on Friday and, if there is, what will be the order of business for tomorrow?


Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Speaker, we shall carry on with this bill, No. C-63, as the first item tomorrow. We shall then deal with the resolution in the name of the Minister of Agriculture which is No. 17 on today's order paper, dealing with the Farm Credit Act. The third item will be second reading of Bill No. C-3, an act to amend the Food and Drugs Act.
I doubt very much if the house will get further than that tomorrow but, if it does, there are some items on the order paper which would not consume too much time and might be fitted in. If there is a short period available I would suggest that hon. members be ready to deal with item No. 9 on today's order paper, second reading of Bill C-58, an act to amend the Carriage by Air Act, in the name of the Minister of Transport; No. 10 on today's order paper, also in the name of the Minister of Transport, respecting public harbours, and if the house moves very quickly we might even take No. 23 on today's order paper, also in the name of the Minister of Transport and dealing with the Aeronautics Act.


Lionel Chevrier: May I ask the house leader what has become of the resolution which he called in the third place on Friday, having to do with redistribution?


Gordon Minto Churchill: It is still on the order paper, Mr. Speaker. The reason I have not called it is simply because we did not move as quickly today as we anticipated. I thought we would have finished the bill dealing with the Export Credits Insurance Corporation and the resolution on the Farm Credit Act; but obviously we cannot complete them and the food and drugs measure plus the electoral boundaries resolution tomorrow.


[Stage Direction]
It being three minutes after ten o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[Stage Direction]
Tuesday, October 16, 1962