1962-12-10

[Stage Direction]
A message from His Excellency the Governor General transmitting supplementary estimates for the financial year ending March 31, 1963, was presented by Hon. George C. Nowlan (Minister of Finance), read by Mr. Speaker to the house, and referred to the committee of supply.


Hon. George C. Nowlan (Minister of Finance):: Mr. Speaker, in further reference to the motion I have just made I should like to make a brief statement. After careful consideration the government has approved the recommendations of the treasury board that salary revisions be implemented at once for the employees comprising the second, third and fourth groups in the cyclical salary review program, and that wage adjustments for prevailing rate employees, consideration of which has been deferred for some months, be also put into effect as soon as the paying authorities can make the necessary arrangements.
In accordance with the principles underlying the cyclical salary review policy, the revisions will be effective from the dates as of which the pay research bureau collected the data on which they are based, that is to say:
(a)	In the case of the clerical, administrative, accounting and professional support group, October 1, 1961;
(b)	in the case of the hospital group, January 1, 1962;
(c)	in the case of the penitentiary and police group, April 1, 1962. The prevailing rate wage adjustments will be effective from the dates recommended by the Department of Labour in each case.
Provision has not been made for the increased expenditure involved in the government's decision in the fiscal year 1962-63 in the estimates which have been tabled in the House of Commons and, consequently, a supplementary estimate in the amount of $30 million to augment the general salaries vote,
from which funds will be allotted to departmental votes, has just been tabled. Some 60,000 employees will be receiving increases as a result of action on the three cyclical groups. The number of prevailing rate employees who will receive wage adjustments cannot readily be calculated accurately, but it is estimated at between 5,000 and 6,000.
Consistently with the cyclical salary review policy, statistics are presently being collected by the pay research bureau on which revisions for the fifth group in the cycle will be based. This group embraces the postal, customs and immigration classes, the crafts, building custodial and maintenance classes, and a large number of other classes which were not included in the first four groups. When the civil service commission has considered the data bearing on this fifth group, it will make recommendations for revisions to the government to be effective as of October 1, 1962.


Hon. L. B. Pearson (Leader of ihe Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, I think members of the house will have been pleased to hear the minister's announcement regarding pay increases for the civil service although they will not be surprised, because this announcement apparently has already been made outside the house in the columns of the press, indeed before the civil service organization officers, according to reports, had been informed of it.
We on this side of the house, while welcoming the minister's announcement, cannot help but recall that the original pay freeze instituted by the government, which was imposed without following the procedure laid down under section 7 of the Civil Service Act, was in our view unjustified because at that time it forced civil servants to make a contribution to the government's austerity program, which no other occupations were being asked to undertake. The government, having taken that step, is now at this date making what I assume are amends for an action which should not have been taken in the first place.


Mr. R. N. Thompson (Red Deer):: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of members of our party I express satisfaction in the fact that the government has faced up to its responsibility before the end of the year, just prior to the Christmas season. Omitting any political overtones or trying to lay accusations for what

Public Service
should have been done before, we just express our satisfaction that it has been done now. We trust that in the consideration the government is making to correct this situation it will not forget the sessional staff during the Christmas season.


Mr. Stanley Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):: Mr. Speaker, this party welcomes the announcement that the Minister of Finance has made. We rejoice with all those who will benefit from the increases now to be put into effect and to be made retroactive, and I join with the hon. member for Red Deer in expressing the hope that early action will be taken to make provision for increases for members of the House of Commons staff, who I believe are not covered by the announcement made today by the Minister of Finance.


An hon. Member:: How about the members?


Stanley Howard Knowles: We are supposed to be able to look after ourselves.
Despite our welcoming this announcement, and despite the remark made by the hon. member for Red Deer, I think it is appropriate to urge that there be as little delay as possible so far as the fifth group of employees is concerned. In fact I am quite disappointed to learn that postal, customs and other employees are not included in the announcement made today.


George Clyde Nowlan: They could not be.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I hope that at some point very soon the minister will make it clear that they will be covered. I want also to say that we shall have to wait until we see the details to learn whether our approval is without qualification, because I noticed the minister said that the government is putting into effect the recommendation of treasury board. A great deal has been made by this government of its new Civil Service Act, about the consultation between civil servants and the civil service commission. My understanding is that the civil service commission made certain recommendations but that the recommendations of treasury board are not necessarily those of the civil service commission. If that is the case, if our employees are being given less than the civil service commission has recommended, I think this is most unfortunate. As a matter of fact this raises the whole question as to whether the kind of consultation to be had at the present time is sufficient.
Nevertheless we welcome this announcement; we are glad that it goes as far as it does. We hope that further improvements will be made in the position of the civil

service both so far as their wages are concerned and in their relations with the government at the earliest possible date.



AMENDMENT OF U.N. RESOLUTION FOR WORLD CONFERENCE

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Howard C. Green (Secretary of State for External Affairs):: Mr. Speaker, on November 16 I answered a question in the house concerning a resolution adopted in the second, which is the economic, committee of the United Nations general assembly calling for a United Nations conference on trade and development. There were serious difficulties at that time over the timing of the conference, and hon. members will recall that in the committee Canada supported the majority vote in favour of that resolution but major trading nations, including the United States, Britain, Japan and some of the important European economic community countries, voted against it. Twenty three countries abstained. Since it was essential that the major trading nations participate in the United Nations conference if it was to be of practical benefit to developing countries, the Canadian delegation with other delegations has worked strenuously during the past three weeks in an endeavour to resolve the differences about the timing of the conference.
I am pleased to be able to inform the house that on Saturday last at a plenary meeting of the United Nations an amendment to the resolution sponsored by Canada and Peru was accepted and led to the virtually unanimous adoption of the revised resolution by the general assembly. The voting was 91 in favour, none against, and one abstention. The text as approved now commands the support of Britain, the United States, Japan, the common market countries and the 23 countries which abstained in committee.
The original resolution recommended to the economic and social council that it convene the conference not later than September, 1963. The resolution as now adopted recommends to the economic and social council that it convene, after consideration of preparatory work, a United Nations conference on trade and development as soon as possible after the 36th session of ECOSOC, which is July, 1963, but in no event later than early 1964, taking into account the view expressed by a large number of delegations that the conference should be convened not later than September, 1963 as well as the view of other delegations that the conference be held in July, 1964.

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I emphasize that this United Nations conference on trade and development is fully consistent with the Prime Minister's proposal in London which has resulted in the calling of an early meeting of GATT ministers. The GATT ministerial meeting will have as its primary purpose the laying of a foundation for a new round of tariff negotiations and for the reduction of other barriers between the members of GATT. These negotiations would aim at expanding opportunities for world trade and would take advantage of new far-reaching tariff negotiating authority of the United States. The GATT efforts to find solutions to many of the same problems which would be considered in the wider forum of the United Nations will complement and support the broader effort. The importance and urgency of these problems, particularly as they relate to trading interests of developing countries, are such as to require their continued attention in the United Nations, GATT and in other international forums concerned with world trade. Far from there being any conflict between GATT initiatives and the United Nations conference, the Canadian government hopes the two approaches will reinforce each other and thereby increase the prospect for early solutions to the problems of world trade.
We are hopeful that this conference, after careful preparation, will be a working conference from which will emerge positive proposals for concrete solutions for the expansion of trade, particularly for the developing countries. It has not been easy to bring about this compromise in the United Nations and I should like to pay special tribute to Senator F. M. Blois and, of course, the other members of the Canadian delegation for their efforts which have resulted in the adoption of this resolution practically on a unanimous basis.

On the orders of the day:


Mr. D. S. Macdonald (Rosedale):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to address a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs arising out of his statement to the house at the commencement of today's session. Can the minister advise the house whether under the terms of the United Nations resolution the trade conference will concern itself with the negotiation of international commodity agreements as well as with the multilateral reduction of trade barriers?


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, my understanding is that it covers the whole broad field of trade.


Mr. Harold E. Winch (Vancouver East):: wish to direct a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs. In view of his statement made just a little while ago on the resolution adopted at the United Nations relative to a trade conference to be held in the spring of 1964, will the minister inform the house of his position and the stand taken by Canada with regard to the proposal that countries other than United Nations members should be invited to attend in order to work toward a world trade agreement?


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, I believe there was some amendment to this effect introduced by the Soviet union or one of the other communist countries, and it was defeated. Canada voted against it.



LIBRARY OF PARLIAMENT


Hon. Gordon Churchill (Minister of Veterans Affairs) moved:: That the report of the joint committee of both houses on the library of parliament, presented to this house on Thursday, December 6, 1962 be now concurred in.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)
(Translation):

Mr. Legare: 1.	What are the names, titles and duties of the twenty-seven officers of the Canadian National Railways who hold the most important positions following that of the president?
2.	On what date were they first employed by the railway company and what successive positions have they held?
3.	What is the salary, including the "pecuniary * benefits" over and above the salary, each of them receives within the company?


Mr. McBain:: The C.N.R. authorities have given us the following information:
The policy of the management concerning the questions raised was expressed on many occasions, especially in answer to question No. 344 of the session of the twenty fourth parliament, where it is said that it is not the policy of the management to supply information from the personal files of officers and employees, a position which met with the approval of the sessional committee on railways, airlines and shipping, and that appointments are made after careful consideration of the qualifications and experience of the persons concerned.
2472	HOUSE OF
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(Text):


* CHEMICAL TREATMENT OF GRAIN
[Stage Direction]
Question No. 98 7-Mr. Haidasz:
1.	Has the Department of Agriculture received any complaints about shipments of grain containing the presence of chemically treated kernels?
2.	Is chemically treated grain, condemned for human use, allowed to be used for animal feed?
Mr. Jorgenson:: 1. No.
2. Chemically treated grain, condemned for human use, is not allowed to be used for animal feed if the feed will contain a material in quantities (a) likely to be deleterious to livestock, or (b) which would leave in the tissues of an animal a residue of a poisonous or harmful substance contrary to the Food and Drug Act.


FRUIT, VEGETABLE AND POULTRY EXPORTS AND IMPORTS
Mr. Douglas: What were the volumes and estimated value of imports to Canada and exports from Canada via British Columbia points of entry during each of the

past five years of the following products, processed or otherwise:	strawberries, raspberries, eggs,
dressed poultry, potatoes, onions, carrots, cabbages, lettuce, tomatoes?


Mr. Nesbitt:: Available statistics on the volume and value of imports and exports of the specified products through customs ports in British Columbia during the years 19571961 are shown in the tables attached.
No trade through British Columbia customs ports was recorded for the following statistical classes in the period 1957-1961:
Export class 53-59-Eggs, whole, yolk or albumen, dried.
Export class 53-69-Eggs, whole, yolk or albumen, frozen or otherwise prepared n.e.s.
Import class 30-Raspberries, fresh.
Import class 2326-Eggs, whole, egg yolk or egg albumen, frozen or otherwise prepared n.o.p.
Import class 2255-Chicken and fowl, dead n.o.p.
Import class 2256-Poultry dead n.o.p.
[Mr. McBain.l
27507-3-157
Availabl
e statistics on the volume and value of exports of specified products through customs ports in British Columbia during the years 1957-1961
Export Class	Unit	1957	1958	1959	1960	1961	Description	Qty.	Qty.	Value	Qty.	Value	Qty.	Value	Qty.	Value	Qty.	Value$	$	3	$	$Strawberries, fresh	(new 71-78) (former 40)	Lb.	Nil	Nil	Nil	27,200	5,848	1,857	260Raspberries, fresh	new 71-75	Lb.	Not separately classified prior to year 1961	3,447,841	529,506Eggs, hatching	(new 53-09) (former 2818)	Doz.	84,452	72,211	55,096	61,144	19,689	14,532	38,278	43,456	19,632	21,249Eggs in the shell n.e.s	(new 53-19) (former 2820)	Doz.	80,910	34,223	310,590	105,862	19,830	5,889	2,360	1,540	3,990	1,913Poultry, fresh or frozen..	(new 11-99) (former 2625)	Cwt.	Nil	3	147	3	150	14	767	Nil	Potatoes, seed	(new 91-80) (former 1460)	Lb.	4,137,500	108,562	3,384,200	96,636	2,824,300	72,086	2,891,500	104,614	7,705,800	283,434Potatoes, n.e.s	(new 91-82) (former 210)	Lb.	36,300	866	22,100	690	24,600	870	184,000	3,771	136,100	3,886Onions	(new 91-70) (former 200)	Lb.	4,250	400	Nil	7,300	205	Nil	135,140	8,488Carrots, fresh	new 91-35	Lb.	Not separately classified prior to year 1961	54,000	2,571Cabbages	Not separately recorded in export statistics	Lettuce	new 91-60	Lb.	Not separately classified prior to year 1961	Nil	<Tomato juice, canned....	(new 98-90) (former 280)	Lb. N.	895	521	Nil	Nil	878	73	Nil	Tomatoes, n.e.s., canned	(new 98-94) Lb. N. (former, 270, 290)	Nil	Nil	Nil	Nil	12,778	3,014Tomato soup, canned. ...	(new 141-10) (former 300)	Lb.	690	86	Nil	Nil	Nil	Nil	
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[Mr. Nesbitt.J
Available statistics on the volume and value of imports of specified products through customs ports in British Columbia during the years 1957-1961
Import Class	Unit of Qty.	1957	1958	1959	1960	1961	Description	Qty.	Value	Qty.	Value	Qty.	Value	Qty.	Value	Qty.	Values	s	t	$	;Strawberries, fresh	19	Lb.	6,435,218	772,839	4,702,445	633,728	5,594,042	826,673	6,399,606	958,875	7,542,071	1,073,664Strawberries, frozen	46	Lb.	370,560	65,395	979,005	190,255	1,244,614	222,852	1,131,443	189,818	1,124,135	224,196 'Raspberries, frozen	44	Lb.	32,014	7,044	Nil	750	196	60,000	11,931	12,145	2,393Egg albumen, dried, evaporated, desiccated or	5,592	200	194	Nil	Nil	Nilpowdered	2315	Lb.	4,955	Eggs, dried, evaporated, desiccated or powdered n.o.p	2317	Lb.	Nil	150	157	Nil	Nil	50	81Eggs in the shell	2325	Doz.	159,528	250,685	224,220	357,435	265,037	392,162	136,270	231,115	425,860	428,100Chickens and fowl, dead or alive n.o.p	2259	Lb.	606,906	213,536	1,139,699	376,062	1,052,356	202,302	1,717,246	256,427	754,992	108,600(discontinued July 1, 1961)	Turkeys, dead or alive n.o.p	2260	Lb.	1,095,621	361,523	66,096	8,082	33,195	7,359	287,816	109,654 278,303 (discontinued July 1	95,497 1961)Poultry n.o.p.; and game; quails, partridges and squabs, dead or alive n.o.p	2254	Lb.	160,178	58,805	174,967	65,170	146,616	49,303	152,425	55,607 25,557 9,796 (discontinued July 1, 1961)	Chickens and fowl, eviscerated	2247	Lb.	(From July 1, 1961)	61,496	12,555Turkeys, eviscerated	2248	Lb.	(From July 1, 1961)	30,009	9,939Poultry, eviscerated	2249	Lb.	(From July 1, 1961)	170,699	62,277Potatoes, sweet, and yams	124	Lb.	1,618,500	142,564	1,526,400	146,345	1,684,700	143,714	1,476,800	161,216	1,298,992	159,831125	Lb.	50,938,900	1,020,584	52,568,800	1,333,049	58,377,800	1,650,927	38,707,200	1,208,579	43,498,501	1,003,2961759	Lb.	160,900	4,311	46,000	1,303	250,100	7,039	231,400	7,665	675,210	20,241Potatoes, dried, and sweet pc tatoes n.o.p	133	Lb.	77,492	10,130	10,196	1,903	144,841	31,867	213,359	44,709	151,616	35,60211,590	323,109	37,522	89,600	10,512frozen 	380	Lb.	173,875	26,021	33,735	5,480	117,094	Potato chips, not frozen	381	Lb.	36,576	17,413	192,491	97,865	14,244	7,595	15,523	5,529	4,306	1,379Onions, green, including shallots	109	Lb.	Not separately classified prior to year 1961.	1,402,201	114,732Onions and shallots	(Old class)	122	Lb.	15,518,668	522,686	17,381,358	564,351	17,457,013	666,736	13,158,541	397,410	Onions n.o.p., including onion sets (new class	13,836,248	429,739from Jan. 1, 1961)	122	Lb.	Carrots, fresh	116	Lb.	11,654,517	438,822	10,555,605	469,601	11,333,165	449,097	10,767,894	389,011	9,685,039	538,642Cabbage	115	Lb.	8,167,087	210,372	9,105.259	256,384	8,261,943	209,125	7,217,599	223,856	7,109,561	192,7732474	HOUSE OF COMMONS
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27507-3-1574
Lettuce	Lb.	15,845,550Tomatoes	Lb.	17,484,971Tomatoes, canned	
137	Lb.	5,078,879Tomato paste, canned	
138	Lb.	825,892Tomato pulp and puree, canned	
139	Lb.	277,985Tomato juice, canned	
140	Lb.	13,275,465Ketchup (catsup)	Gal.	181,802557,812	18,469,751	638,335	17,518,447	618,371	18,167,097	740,973	19,550,194	662,100,200.-937	15,995,130	1,258,407	18,505,663	1,217,112	19,138,219	1,447,623	18,961,445	1,235,258383,768	2,876,013	236,695	5,338,274	412,636	6,279,301	503,895	1,902,126	181,092118,279	822,608	123,615	991,675	144,702	1,104,214	166,717	1,301,870	218,05918,715	94,698	7,240	203,664	12,454	189,890	14,861	115,308	10,920806,163	11,042,800	722,911	11,850,356	693,282	10,684,956	710,562	11,031,679	797,153225,497	146,900	185,423	181,382	248,997	197,719	278,665	191,073	298,523
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CHILDREN UNDER 16 IN FEDERAL PENITENTIARIES
Mr. Malheson: 1.	How many children under the age of 16 years were incarcerated in federal penitentiaries during the year ended March 31, 1962?
2.	What is the breakdown of this group by age on admission, by offence, and by length of service?


Mr. Bell (Saint John-Albert):: 1. 41.
2.	(a) 13 years old, 2; 14 years old, 5; 15 years old, 34.
(b)	B.E.T., 15; Theft of auto and motor vehicle, 15; Incorrigible, 3; B.E.W.I., 1; Attempt robbery while armed, 1; Theft, 1; B.W.V., 2; T.A.O. and B.E.T., 2; T.O.A. and attempt B.E.T., 1.
(c)	Term of 2 years, 30; Term of 2 years and 1 month, 1; Term of 2 years and 2 months, 1; Term of 3 years, 9.


COST OF ALASKA HIGHWAY IN B.C.
Mr. Leboe: 1.	What are the latest estimates as to the cost of reconstruction and paving of the Alaska highway within B.C.?
2.	What is the annual cost of maintaining the
B.	C. portion of the Alaska highway?
3.	What offer has the B.C. government made in respect to participating in or taking over this section of the Alaska highway in B.C.?


Mr. Harkness:: 1. No accurate estimate for reconstruction and paving of the Alaska highway within British Columbia is available, as no detailed engineering studies have been made on the unpaved portion of the Alaska highway.
2.	Based on expenditures during the fiscal year 1961-62-$3,281,571.
3.	British Columbia accepted conditions of transfer and assumed control and maintenance for the paved sections between Mile 1.4 and Mile 83.6 on October 1, 1961. No further approach has been made by the province of British Columbia to take over the remaining portion of the Alaska highway within the provincial boundaries.
(Translation):
C.	B.C., MONTREAL-STORAGE OF STOCKS ON HAND


Mr. Marcoux: Is stock valued at $2,500,000 stored in the C.B.C. building located on Dorchester street, Montreal, and, if so, for what purpose will it he used?


Mr. Halpenny:: I am informed by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation as follows: Yes. Stocks stored represent inventories to be used by the corporation in the normal conduct of its business.
(Text):


STUDY OF DUTCH ELM DISEASE
Mr. Coates: 1.	Has the Department of Forestry undertaken a study of the prevalence of Dutch elm disease in Canada and, if so, what is the result of such study? [Mr. Nesbitt.l
2.	What is the federal government doing to eradicate Dutch elm disease?


Mr. Flemming (Victoria-Carleion):: 1. The
Department of Forestry has undertaken a comprehensive program of surveys and research on the Dutch elm disease and definite procedures are recommended to reduce the destructiveness of this serious disease.
It has been demonstrated that control measures involving the removal of diseased and dead trees and spraying of healthy trees with insecticides can keep losses to tolerable levels. Where these measures are not implemented, however, the disease is expected to continue to kill elms for many years in areas where it now occurs, namely, western New Brunswick and southern Quebec and Ontario, and to spread to other areas; but it is unlikely that it will eliminate elms from our landscape.
Intensive research is in progress to determine how the disease develops in infected trees and on chemotherapy to find improved measures of control. Co-operative studies with Department of Agriculture scientists have resulted in the development of elms apparently resistant to the disease. These trees are presently being critically tested to determine the degree of resistance.
2.	It is unlikely that the Dutch elm disease can ever be completely eradicated. The disease is now well established over extensive areas of Canada and the United States and under these conditions it is impossible to remove all sources of infection. The present program in many cities and park regions is one of sanitation which calls for early detection and removal of infected trees. In cities where these programs have been rigidly applied losses have been reduced to tolerable levels (e.g., Fredericton, N.B.).
The federal government is assisting in control programs by providing technical assistance and guidance in methods and procedures of disease control. Extensive continuing surveys are carried out to define the limits and seriousness of the disease and to provide other information essential for timely control operations.
(Translation):


C.B.C.-REDUCTION IN SALARIES OF PERMANENT EMPLOYEES
Mr. Marcoux: Has provision been made in the revised estimates for a decrease in the salaries of the permanent members of the C.B.C. staff, and will this result in a decrease in the number of the performers for the different programs?


George Ernest Halpenny: I am informed by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation as follows:

The revised estimates reflect the progression of the corporation's regular staff through the salary scales in which they are placed as a result of commitments made in union negotiations or at the time of appointment to staff. The number of program performers is not directly related to variations in the amounts paid out in salaries to the regular staff.
(Text):


VOCATIONAL TRAINING STATISTICS
Mr. Pennell: 1.	With respect to the Vocational Training Coordination Act: (a) how many persons enrolled for training under the terms of the said act (i) in 1961 (ii) in 1962 (b) have any of these trainees completed their courses and. if so, how many (c) how many of those who enrolled discontinued their training before completion (d) how many enrolled for courses conducted under (i) trades approved for apprenticeship under the Provincial Apprenticeship Act (ii) trades under a collective labour agreement (iii) trades under private apprenticeship plans (e) what were the reasons given by those who discontinued their training?
2.	With respect to the Technical and Vocational Training Assistance Act: (a) how many persons enrolled for training under the terms of the said act (i) in 1961 (ii) in 1962 (b) how many completed their training under this act (c) how many discontinued training under this act before completing the course (d) what reasons were given for discontinuation of the course (e) were any trainees requested to discontinue and, if so, how many (f) how many of those who completed training are now employed (g) how many persons were deemed to be unemployed at the time they enlisted for training under provisions of this act (h) what has been the cost to the federal government for assistance under this act, exclusive of capital expenditures?


Mr. Starr:: 1. The Vocational Training Coordination Act was repealed by section 15 of the Technical and Vocational Training Assistance Act effective 20 December, 1960 when the latter act became effective. Therefore there was no training under the Vocational Training Co-ordination Act in 1961 and 1962.
All training programs carried on under the Vocational Training Co-ordination Act at the time that the new act came into effect were continued under the terms of the new act.
2 (a), (b), (c), (d), (e), and (f). This information is not available.
(g)	1960-1961, 10,774; 1961-1962, 26,887.
(h)	1960-1961, $5,634,051; 1961-1962, $17,819,657.



GLASSCO REPORT


Mr. Smith (Calgary: South):
In connection with the items of equipment indicated in the Glassco report as being held surplus to requirements, i.e., boots, small kit bags, underwear, socks, pneumatic tires, lamp G-bulbs, oil seal rings, radio oscillator (a) in each case when were these articles purchased (b) what was the total
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quantity purchased (c) what was the quantity on hand when stocks were examined by the Glassco commission (d) on what basis was the number of years' supply for each item computed?


Douglas Scott Harkness: Boots-Records of total
quantities purchased of this item prior to 1954 are no longer kept. The last purchase of this boot size was in 1954-55 when 80 pairs were bought. The stocks were for current issue and for mobilization purposes. There were 170 pairs on hand when stocks were examined by the Glassco commission.
Small kit bags-39,000 of this item were purchased between 1956 and 1960 and there were 24,485 on hand when the Glassco commission examined the stocks. These kit bags are issued to all non-commissioned personnel in the navy for stowage of blankets. A total of 4,000 were issued in the 12 month period ending October, 1962.
Underwear-33,000	were purchased in
1951-52. The stocks were for current issue and for mobilization purposes. In 1959 the previous issue of 3 suits per man was discontinued. Issues are now limited to men serving in northern locations. The number on hand at the time of the Glassco commission examination was 20,652. The issues in 1961 were 18 suits.
Socks-Records of total quantities purchased of this item prior to 1952 are no longer kept. 16,520 pairs of this item were purchased in 1952 for current issue and for mobilization purposes. There were 47,386 pairs on hand at the time of the Glassco commission examination.
Pneumatic tires-This particular tire is used on the nose-wheel of the C130B Hercules heavy transport aircraft, 4 of which were introduced into service in 1960. There were 24 in stock at the time of the Glassco commission examination. These aircraft are now in full operational service and the spare tires have been utilized when required. The supply inventory is now nil. Procurement action is being taken to obtain additional spares in order that C130B operations can continue without interruption.
Lamp G-Bulbs-The G-bulb is required for the Aldis lamp used by aircrew of Lancaster aircraft and were supplied from R.A.F. sources. There is no record of procurement of this bulb since the end of world war II. There were 4,053 of this item on hand when stocks were examined by the Glassco commission. When the Lancaster aircraft are withdrawn from service, there will no longer be a requirement for this bulb.
Oil seal rings-14,310 of this item, for vehicles of peculiar military and non-commercial design, were purchased during 1952 as part of a lifetime buy of spares based on possible wartime usage. The vehicles are expected to be in service for a further 10

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or more years. There were 13,801 in stock at the time of the Glassco commission examination. The annual usage of oil seal rings increases in proportion to the age of the vehicles and, in fact, the annual consumption has nearly doubled since the time of the examination by the Glassco commission.
Radio oscillators-Approximately 35,000 of this item were purchased in 1952-53 and there were 25,640 on hand at the time of the Glassco commission examination. This item was bought as part of a lifetime buy in support of 5,000 portable radio sets, of which manufacture was being discontinued. The part is peculiar to this radio set which is expected to be in service at least until 1970. As with the oil seal rings, the annual usage increases in proportion to the age of the radio sets.
Also referred to in the report:
Flashlights-This item was purchased during world war II and records show a stock of 4,881 in 1953. 4,458 were held at the time of the Glassco commission examination. This is a signal light for traffic control and is held for mobilization purposes.
Coveralls-This item was purchased prior to 1954 but available records do not indicate exact numbers acquired. 27,200 were in stock at the time of the Glassco commission examination, of which over half are used. They are being retained for national survival requirements.
In each case, the Glassco commission computed the number of years' stock on hand by dividing the stock, whether for normal issue, mobilization purposes or lifetime spares, by the number of issues made in the year 1961.



* CANADIAN REPRESENTATIONS RESPECTING APPLICATION OF U.S. LABOUR LAWS TO SHIPS

Mr. Herridge: What representations were made by the Canadian government before the United States supreme court concerning the effort of the United States labour relations board to make United States labour laws applicable on foreign registered, United States owned ships?


Howard Charles Green: The jurisdiction of the United States national labour relations board is being made the subject of review by the United States supreme court when it considers later this month a series of cases known as the Empresa cases. These cases involve the general question to what extent may the jurisdiction of the national labour relations board be applied to vessels (1) in which United States citizens or business concerns have substantial control and/or beneficial interests; (2) which fly the flag of,
[Mr. Harkness.l
and are registered by, a foreign nation; and (3) are engaged in the foreign commerce of the United States.
Canada seeks leave to state its position to the court in these cases because of the implications of the court's decision for international maritime commerce in general and Canadian trade and commerce in particular. On instructions from the Canadian government, the New York legal firm of Sullivan and Cromwell has delivered to the supreme court a brief as amicus curiae in the cases, together with a motion for leave to file the brief. In line with past practice, there is every indication that the leave requested will be granted. It is a customary practice of the supreme court not to confirm the granting of the application for leave to file until the actual day of the hearing.
I hope shortly to table in parliament a copy of the Canadian brief which contains our submission in detail. It was prepared by the firm of Sullivan and Cromwell in consultation with the Departments of Justice, External Affairs and Labour.
(Translation):



C.N.R.-CLAIMS FOR DAMAGED GOODS, USE OF PRIVATE CARS, ETC.

[Stage Direction]
Question No. 1,032
Mr. Beaule:: 1.	What was the actual amount paid on claims by the Canadian National Railway for (a) lost goods (b) damaged goods, for each year from January 1, 1956 to January 1, 1962?
2.	What was the actual amount paid by the C.N.R. on claims for lost and damaged goods from January 1, 1956 to January 1, 1962, at (a) Montreal (b) North Sydney (c) Vancouver and in (d) Newfoundland?
3.	What was the amount of alcoholic beverages bought by the C.N.R. and delivered to the private trains of the C.N.R. in Canada for each year from January 1, 1956 to January 1, 1962?
4.	How many private railway cars are maintained by the C.N.R. in Canada for officials and employees in each province?
5.	How many private railway cars are operated by the C.N.R. in Montreal for officials and employees?
6.	What are the names or numbers of all private railway cars of the C.N.R. outside Montreal and the total price and cost of maintenance of each from January 1, 1956 to January 1, 1962?
7.	What was the mileage of each private railway car for each year from January 1, 1959 to January l, 1962, and also (a) the names and positions of the officials and employees using these cars and (b) the places where they went in Canada and outside Canada?
8.	Are private railway cars used in Newfoundland and, if so, what are (a) the numbers of the cars (b) the names and positions of the officials and employees using them (c) the mileage covered by each car from January 1, 1956 to January 1, 1962 (d) the total maintenance cost of these cars from January 1, 1956 to January 1, 1962 and (e) were these cars used at any time for purposes other than

the above-mentioned and, if so, by whom and for what purposes?
9.	Has the C.N.R. been sued for goods stolen during transportation by rail or from its premises from January 1, 1958 to January 1, 1962, and, if so, (a) for what amount in each province (b) what was the actual value of the goods stolen in each case (c) the number of convictions and (d) the number of cases dismissed?
10.	What was the amount of the claims made by shippers against the C.N.R. in each province from January 1, 1958 to January 1, 1962?
11.	Has the C.N.R. any important claim for an amount exceeding $500 which has been outstanding for a period of a year or more and, if so, (a) for what length of time (b) what are the names of the claimants and (c) what is the reason for the failure to settle such claims?


James Alexander McBain: 1 and 2. Information on these questions is found in the annual reports published by the C.N.R., as well as in part 2 of publication No. 52-209 entitled "Railway Transportation" by the dominion bureau of statistics. The requested details do not appear there in the same form as in the question.
3.	None.
4,	5, 6, 7 and 8. For the requirements of its operation, the railway operates certain work and business cars for the use of executives and employees, for inspection and business purposes, consistently with a policy recognized by other railways in Canada and elsewhere. The requested details are not recorded in the same form as in the question.
9, 10 and 11. These questions are sub judice.
(Text):



DAMAGE TO SEEDLINGS, B.C.

Mr. Fleming (Okanagan-: Revelsloke):
Has the Department of Forestry received reports of damage to seedlings in plantation and reforestation areas of coastal British Columbia and, if so, what is the department doing to remedy such conditions?


Hugh John Flemming: In recent years approximately 200,000 acres of plantations have been established in British Columbia and as a result insects and diseases attacking small seedlings have received a great deal of attention. Currently the most destructive insect pest is a weevil. This insect has always been present in the British Columbia forests but at low numbers under natural conditions. When areas are cut over or burned and then replanted the weevil shows a marked increase in numbers and causes extensive losses by feeding on planted seedlings. The solution to this problem appears to be one of management. Practical measures of control which will be tested are
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delayed slash burning and more timely planting to avoid weevil attack, and the use of nurse crops to divert the weevils from valuable planted seedlings. A severe outbreak of sweetfern blister rust has been discovered in Bishop and Monterey pine plantings on Vancouver island. This rust occurs on native pines in the region but has never been destructive. The discovery makes doubtful the success of exotic pines in this area and future plantings have been suspended until more is known about the disease. Precautionary measures have been taken to prevent introduction of the rust to regions of the world where Bishop and Monterey pines are native.
Damage to young Douglas fir plantations as a result of browsing by heavy deer populations has been reported to the Department of Forestry by industrial foresters. At the request of the British Columbia tree farm licence committee, the Department of Forestry has initiated a co-operative study, which showed that extreme damage occurs only in small local areas, such as watersheds, where hunting is not permitted. This damage can be found especially throughout tree farm licence areas in southern Vancouver island. Nevertheless, even in areas of heavy damage, the predicted losses in growth are not sufficient to warrant expensive control measures, since they indicate a reduction of only 3 per cent in volume production during an 80 year rotation. Long term studies of browsing damage are being maintained to permit assessment of any changes in trends.
Mortality in fall plantings of Douglas fir seedlings has recently been reported. The Department of Forestry has assigned a tree physiologist to the study of planting stock in an effort to provide basic information on plant-water relationships, root growth, and transpiration patterns of this species. This information will assist in developing improved planting methods and reduction in this mortality.
(Translation):



*C.N.R.-CRITERIA USED IN APPOINTMENT OF SENIOR OFFICERS

Mr. Gregoire: What criteria does Mr. Gordon use in making appointments to the 28 senior positions in the Canadian National Railways?


Mr. Balcer:: Mr. Speaker, the management of the Canadian National Railways informs us that the information concerning that question was given at the hearing of the sessional committee on railways, air lines and shipping.

Questions



*C.N.R.-REQUIREMENTS FOR PROMOTION OF FRENCH CANADIANS

Mr. Gregoire: What qualifications does the management of C.N.R. require in assessing French Canadians for promotions to the 28 senior positions in the company?


Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker, the management of the Canadian National Railways informs us that the information concerning that question was given at the hearings of the sessional committee on railways, air lines and shipping.



C.N.R.-QUALIFICATIONS AND SERVICE OF SENIOR OFFICERS

Mr. Gregoire: What was the length of service with the C.N.R., the qualifications and the experience of the 28 senior officers including those whose names do not appear in the Canadian Who's Who, namely: Messrs. J. W. Demcoe, vice president, transportation and maintenance:	H. C. Crayston, vice
president, Atlantic region; J. A. McDonald, vice president, St. Lawrence region: G. R. Graham, vice president, Montagnes region; R. T. Vaughan, secretary of the company; J. R. White, general manager, telecommunications; J. C. Kenkel, European general manager; H. M. Blaiklock, general manager, real estate; S. S. Chambers, general manager, hotels; E. A. Springs, director of investigation; E. J. Denyar, treasurer of the Canadian National Railways?


James Alexander McBain: The management of Canadian National Railways advises as follows:
The policy of the management on the questions which have been asked has been explained many times, and particularly in reply to question No. 344 of the session of the 24th parliament, when it was pointed out that it is not the management's policy to supply information from confidential files on officials or employees; this policy has met with the approval of the sessional committee on railways, airlines and shipping. Appointments are the result of judicious appraisal of the competence and experience of incumbents.
The mean length of service of the persons involved is 35 years.
(Text):



TRINITY BAY, NFLD., BREAKWATER

Mr. Tucker: Has the government received a petition from the fishermen of Melrose, Trinity Bay, Newfoundland, for the construction of a breakwater and, if so, what action is contemplated?


Mr. McCleave:: In March, 1961, a petition put forward by the "voters of Melrose" in

favour of improved harbour facilities including a breakwater, was received. The proposal was investigated, but it was not felt that it could be justified. No action is contemplated at present.



EXPERIMENTAL AND ILLUSTRATION STATIONS, NORTHWEST TERRITORIES

Mrs. Hardie: 1.	At what locations in the Northwest Territories does the government conduct agricultural experimental stations and agricultural illustration stations?
2.	At each station where weather statistics are kept, how many frost free days were experienced in 1960 and 1961?
3.	What was the estimated value of agricultural production in 1961?
4.	Has the government a program to assist those who are engaged in farming in the Northwest Territories and, if so, what is the nature of such program?


Warner Herbert Jorgenson: 1. The government of
Canada is conducting agricultural research work at (a) the experimental farm located at Fort Simpson, N.W.T., and, under the direction of this farm, at Inuvik, N.W.T. (b) Off-station experimental work is also conducted at Hay River, N.W.T., under the direction of the experimental farm at Fort Vermilion, Alta. There are no formal experimental project farms (formerly called illustration stations) located in the Northwest Territories.
2.	The number of frost-free days were as follows: Fort Simpson-116 and 109; Inuvik -97 and 42; Hay River-107 and 110, in 1960 and 1961 respectively.
3.	There are no available statistical data on that subject.
4.	The normal facilities and programs of the department, which are applicable, are available to assist those persons engaged in farming in the Northwest Territories. For instance officials conducting the work referred to in (1) above are available to offer advice and counsel; the provisions of such acts as the Farm Credit Act, the Animal Contagious Diseases Act and the Agricultural Rehabilitation and Development Act are available.



DOMINION BUREAU OF STATISTICS, MONTREAL- NEW EMPLOYEES

Mr. Dupuis: Since June 1962, have new employees been hired for the dominion bureau of statistics in Montreal and, if so, who are these persons and what are the functions of each?


Wallace Bickford (Wally) Nesbitt: Since June 1962, the following
new employees have been hired by the dominion bureau of statistics in Montreal:
Frezza, Vincent-Field representative carrying out field and office work in connection

with the labour force survey, special surveys, collection of business reports and other activities.
Roux, Bernard J.-Same duties.
Simard, Miss Lucienne-Stenographer in the regional office.



R.C.A.F. STATIONS IN CANADA

Mr. Dupuis: 1.	How many R.C.A.F. stations are there in Canada?
2.	Where is each one situated, and what is the name of each one of its officers?
3.	What are the names of those who are proficient in the two official languages of the country?


Douglas Scott Harkness: 1. 73.
2 and 3. It is not departmental policy to make public lists of all establishments in Canada of a particular service giving the precise locations.



DOMINION BUREAU OF STATISTICS, MONTREAL   EMPLOYEES DISCHARGED

Mr. Lachance: 1.	Since June 1962, have any employees of the dominion bureau of statistics in Montreal been discharged on account of the austerity program and if so, what are the names of these employees?
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2.	Is it the intention of the government to reemploy these persons and, if so, at what time?


Wallace Bickford (Wally) Nesbitt: 1. No employees of the dominion bureau of statistics in Montreal have been discharged since June, 1962.
2. See 1 above.



CAPILANO INDIAN BAND, B.C.    LEASES OF PROPERTY

Mr. Berger: 1.	Have any leases of foreshore or other property been granted by the Capilano Indian hand of British Columbia during 1960, 1961 or 1962 and, if so, in each case to whom were the leases granted, how much property was leased, what rental is being paid, and to whom?
2.	Are any applications or proposals for leases of foreshore or other property of the Capilano Indian band of British Columbia presently under consideration?


Mr. McGee:: The answers to both parts of this question are contained in the reply given to question No. 938.
Although there is no Capilano Indian band, there is a Capilano Indian reserve which is owned by the Squamish Indian band. The information given in reply to question No. 938 includes details of the following leases which apply to the Capilano Indian reserve.
Lessee
Avalon Motor Hotel T. Eaton Co. Ltd. Melvin P. Jacobs Park Royal Shopping Routledge Gravel
Acreage
Advertising sign 15.98 acres .25 acres Centre 25.70 acres 2.57 acres
Annual Rent $ 200.00 32,039.90 540.90 46,106.60 2,000.00
Rent payable to Band Band
Constance L. Band Band Band



USE OF R.C.A.F. BASE AT MONT JOLI

Mr. Legare: 1.	Following the accident which occurred at the air base at Bagotville, has the Department of National Defence considered putting Mont Joli airport to a greater use?
2.	Has the department considered the possibility of attaching a squadron of the Royal Canadian Air Force to the base at Mont Joli and, if so, what decision has been taken in this regard?


Douglas Scott Harkness: 1. No.
2. In June, 1958 and in October, 1959, representations were made requesting an R.C.A.F. squadron be transferred to Mont Joli on a permanent basis. The feasibility of this proposal was studied and it was concluded that there was no operational requirement for such a transfer.



* EFFECT OF ATOMIC TESTS ON STRONTIUM 90 LEVEL

Mr. Rynard: 1.	Does the world health organization or any other international agency make a continuing study of the effect of atomic tests on the level of strontium 90 in the atmosphere and, if so. what have been the 27507-3-158
results and are there areas in the world where the level of strontium 90 has increased to the extent where it is a menace to life and health?
2.	Is Canada or any international agency investigating preventive measures that could be taken to minimize the effects of fall-out by such means as the lotion reported to have been developed in Finland and capable of absorbing radioactive material from the body surface?


Mrs. Casselman:: 1. Various national and international agencies such as the world health organization and the international atomic energy agency are studying the effects of atomic tests. World wide data are compiled and studied by the United Nations scientific committee on the effects of atomic radiation which published its second report in September, 1962. So far as is known there are no areas in the world where the level of strontium 90 from atomic tests has increased to the extent where it is a menace to life and health.
2. Many groups in various countries are actively engaged in research programs designed to determine the suitability of various

Questions
methods in minimizing the effects of radioactivity from fall-out or any other source. In the case of fall-out consideration is being given to methods of reducing the contamination of food supplies by modifying agricultural practices and treatment of food products, and also to methods of reducing the amount of contamination retained in the body. Work along these lines is being done in Canada.



* MEETINGS OF MINISTERS WITH NORAD OFFICERS

Mr. Matheson: 1.	Has the Secretary of State for External Affairs ever visited command headquarters of NORAD?
2.	Has the secretary of state ever met in conference with the senior officers of NORAD and, if so, when?
3.	Does the secretary of state have any plan to visit NORAD headquarters or to meet with its senior officers?


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, the answer to each part of this question is no.



NARCOTICS ADDICTS AMONG WOMEN PENITENTIARY PRISONERS

Mr. Matheson: 1.	What percentage of the women serving time in penitentiary during the year ended March 31, 1962, suffered a history of addiction to narcotics?
2.	What facilities are now available to cure penitentiary inmates of addiction, what is the nature of treatment and the degree of success achieved?


Thomas Miller Bell: 1. 64 per cent.
2. Both the psychiatrist and the psychologist at the institution have been giving psychotherapy to these drug addicts, to reinforce their resistance to the habit and to give them insight into the reasons for taking the drugs. Some tranquilizing drugs have been used to allay the anxiety of certain of the inmates. It is difficult to assess the degree of success as no follow up of inmates is made after they are released. However, in drug addiction, as in the case of alcoholism, relapse is frequent.



RESEARCH STUDIES ON CRAMBE PLANT

Mr. Martin (Essex East): 1.	Is the Department of Agriculture doing any research or carrying on any studies in connection with the European plant of the mustard family known as crambe, with a view to its growth and field testing in Canada and its possible use in the
(a)	extraction of oil for use in the manufacture of synthetic fibres, detergents and plastics, and
(b)	extraction of oil for use as an emergency fuel for illumination?
2.	Has the department received any reports or other information on advance field testing of this crop by the department of agriculture in the United States to determine the areas best suited for production of this plant in that country?
3.	Are any studies or tests of this sort under way in Canada to determine areas best suited for production and temperature and moisture best suited for it?

4.	Will the minister undertake to have studies made to determine whether this plant could be used either as an irrigated or dry land crop?


Warner Herbert Jorgenson: 1. Yes. Experimental plantings of crambe have been carried by the research branch of the department since 1954. More extensive yield trials have been conducted in the prairie provinces since 1958. The oil and the meal of crambe have been studied and the chemical properties are known. The oil has a high percentage of erucic acid, a feature which makes it useful for industrial processes.
The research branch is presently increasing seed of two selections of crambe to obtain amounts sufficient for commercial tests on both the oil and the meal.
2.	Yes. The data available in the United States are relatively limited and represent only exploratory experiments to date.
3.	Yes. Tests have been conducted in both western and eastern Canada to determine the adaptability of crambe to Canadian conditions. This species appears to be adapted to the brown soil areas of the prairies and, under these conditions, it will yield more seed per acre than rapeseed.
4.	Studies have been completed and others are in progress to determine the most suitable areas of production for this species. Tests are being conducted on both irrigated and dryland sites. The information presently available indicates that crambe is more tolerant to drought than rapeseed.



* UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE FUND BALANCE

Mr. Munro: What was the credit balance in the unemployment insurance fund as of November 30, 1962?


Mr. Grafftey:: Mr. Speaker, the answer to this question is that the figures are presently being compiled and should be made available on or about December 17 or 18, 1962.



* INCREASE IN FAMILY ALLOWANCES

Mr. Gagnon: Does the government intend to increase family allowances payments in the near future?


Arza Clair Casselman: Mr. Speaker, as this is a matter of government policy any announcement would be made by the government in the usual manner.



* UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE BENEFITS TO WORKERS RETURNING FROM MAINE

Mr. Gagnon: Will Canadian workers engaged in work in the state of Maine be eligible for unemployment insurance next spring as a result of arrangements being made between Canada and the state of Maine?


Michael Starr: It is expected that a meeting between the Maine employment security

commission and the unemployment insurance commission will take place some time in January, 1963, regarding an agreement between the state of Maine and Canada respecting unemployment insurance. Until such time as this meeting is held and negotiations completed, I am unable to say what the outcome might be.



*MARKETING OF ONTARIO FLUE CURED TOBACCO

Mr. Honey: What action, if any, has the government taken with reference to the request of the Ontario flue-cured tobacco growers' marketing board that an agreement be entered into between that board and Her Majesty the Queen in right of Canada under the provisions of the Agricultural Products Co-operative Marketing Act for the marketing of flue-cured tobacco produced in the province of Ontario during the year 1962?


Warner Herbert Jorgenson: Mr. Speaker, this matter is under consideration.



* GRANT TO CRAWLEY FILMS LTD., OTTAWA

Mr. Marcoux: Is Crawley Films Limited receiving an annual grant of $50,000 from the government?


Frank Charles McGee: Mr. Speaker, the national film board advises as follows: No.



*C.B.C. SELECTION OF COMMENTATORS

Mr. Marcoux: Who is directly responsible for the selection of commentators for "Viewpoint'' and "Commentaires" programs respectively, broadcast on the English and French networks of the C.B.C.?


George Ernest Halpenny: I am informed by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation as follows:
The selection of commentators, as of participants in all other programs, is the sole responsibility of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. However, the two series referred to are in the program area of public affairs; and speakers are invited by members of the public affairs department of the English networks or the department of adult education and public affairs broadcasts of the French networks, under the general direction of the management and program direction of those two networks.
(Translation) :



C.B.C., MONTREAL  RENTAL OF STAGE SETS

Mr. Marcoux: Is it the policy of the C.B.C., in Montreal, to rent commonly used stage set items and, if so, has this policy been found to be more economical than purchasing such items outright?


George Ernest Halpenny: I am informed by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation that the policy followed in some instances is to rent staging
27507-3-158J
Questions
items, while, in others it is considered to be more economical to construct or purchase outright. All three methods are used depending on which is the more economical.
(Text):



PAYMENT OF ACCOUNTS BY NATIONAL FILM BOARD

[Stage Direction]
Question No. 1,09 7-Mr. Marcoux:
1.	What is the average period of time between the receipt by the national film board of accounts from production companies and their payment?
2.	Has any action been taken by the government to hasten the payment of such accounts?
Frank Charles McGee: The national film board advises as follows:
1.	The board deals with production companies in the following areas:
(a)	Production of motion picture film,
(b)	Purchase of motion picture prints,
(c)	The provision of motion picture services. An examination of the last two years'
transactions reveals that the average period of time between the receipt by the board of accounts from production companies and the payment thereof is:
(a)	Production of films-an average of 16 days (this leaves out those instances where the terms of the contract have not been met by the producer and further correspondence is necessary. In certain instances matters have to be referred to third parties, i.e. government department sponsors).
(b)	Purchase of prints-the average time is 5 days to 2 weeks. The 2-week time period may be necessary when matters may be referred again to third parties, i.e. sponsors.
(c)	Motion picture service-the average time is one month. Such services are subject to subjective judgment and must be approved by the production personnel involved before clerical routine can begin.
2.	It is felt that the payment of accounts is effected within a reasonable amount of time in view of the nature of the business transacted.



NATIONAL FILM BOARD PRODUCTION OF COMMERCIAL FILMS

Mr. Marcoux: Does the national film board produce commercial films for business firms and, if so, what is the authority for the production of such films?


Frank Charles McGee: The national film board advises as follows: No.



* COMMITTEE ON PESTICIDES IN AGRICULTURE

Mr. Haidasz: 1. Has a national committee on pesticides in agriculture been formed in Canada?

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2. Have any recommendations of this committee been reported and, if so, what are these recommendations?


Warner Herbert Jorgenson: 1. A national committee on pesticide use in agriculture has been formed as a subcommittee of the national co-ordinating committee on agricultural services. The national co-ordinating committee consists of federal and provincial deputy ministers of agriculture and deans of agricultural colleges. The subcommittee on pesticide use is composed of representatives of the departments of national health and welfare, northern affairs and national resources, and agriculture; agricultural colleges, provincial departments of agriculture, and the Canadian chemical industry.
2. Recommendations of the committee reported to the national co-ordinating committee on agricultural services form a basis for a co-ordinated approach to pesticide use in Canada for the guidance of the federal and provincial departments of agriculture. To date these have pertained to:
(a)	The co-ordination and dissemination of available information on pesticide use,
(b)	principles and criteria which may be employed in drafting local recommendations for pesticide use, and
(c)	the need for additional research on pesticides and their use.



* NUCLEAR ATTACK


Mr. Haidasz: Has the federal government an evacuation plan for occupants of the House of Commons in the event of nuclear attack on Ottawa and, if so, what are the specific details of this plan?


Mr. Diefenbaker:: No. The plans for such persons apply only to those who have specific wartime emergency responsibilities. Others are expected to follow the directions given to Canadians generally.



KINGSTON, ONT.    RESTORATION OF CITY HALL AND WATERFRONT

Mr. Benson: 1.	Have representations been received from any person or group of persons in Kingston, Ontario, concerning the expenditure of centennial celebration funds for the restoration of Kingston city hall and waterfront?
2.	What consideration has been given to these representations?
3.	What action is planned in this regard?


John George Diefenbaker: 1. Yes.
2 and 3. The municipal authorities were informed that the city's brief is under active study and that they would be advised when a decision was reached.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. MacEwan: 1.	What agency or board of the government perfected the anti-submarine device known as variable depth sonar?
2.	When was the device first used in ships of the Royal Canadian Navy?
3.	How does V.D.S. rank with similar anti-submarine devices used by other navies?
4.	What company manufactures the device?
5.	What are the names of the subcontractors in the manufacture of V.D.S.?
6.	Has any attempt been made by the government through the Department of Defence Production to sell V.D.S. to other NATO countries and, if so, what are the names of the countries and the results of such attempts?
7.	Is the government through the Department of Defence Production, continuing its efforts for further sales to NATO countries and, if so, to what countries?



* CANADIAN CONTRIBUTION TO FOREIGN AID

[Stage Direction]
Question No. 1,03 7-Mr. Brewin:
1.	Have any requests been received from the United Nations or any of its agencies for a contribution in foreign aid from Canada equivalent to one per cent of its national income and, if so, what has been the answer of the government to any such request?
2.	Has the United Nations or any of its agencies communicated to the government of Canada, goals recently adopted, for a decade of development and, if so, what are such goals, and what attitude has the government of Canada taken to them?
3.	Has the government received from the United States agency for international development any requests for an increase in donations for economic aid to underdeveloped countries?
4.	Has the organization for economic co-operation and development urged Canada to reassess its aid program, and what action, if any, has the government taken about it?
5.	Have other economic aid institutions or specialists outside of Canada called for increased donations by Canada to underdeveloped countries and, if so, who are they, and what is the nature of their requests?
Howard Charles Green: Return tabled.



BOUNDARY BAY AIRPORT, VANCOUVER

Mr. Laing: In reference to the property commonly known as Boundary Bay airport (a) what acreage is involved in this property (b) how many (i) airdromes (ii) other permanent buildings are located there (c) what has been total capital cost of land, buildings and runways since 1940 (d) how many miles of concrete and asphalt runways are installed (e) are the runways still suitable to carry planes of the type and weight for which Pitt Meadows airport is being prepared (f) to what use are (i) the land (ii) airdromes (iii) other permanent buildings, now being put (g) are there any army operations there that could not be economically moved to another site (h) would small planes there present any hazard to operation of Vancouver international airport (i) what was total return in 1961 of rental of the property for farm use?

Inquiries of the Ministry



WEYMONTACHIE INDIAN RESERVE


Mr. Laprise: 1.	How much has been expended by the federal government on the Indian reservation at Weymon-tachie (near Sanmaur) each year since 1955?
2.	What is the name of the firm or firms which supply this Indian reservation?



MAN HOURS AND LABOUR CONTENT IN VARIOUS COMMODITIES

Mr. Laing: What is (a) man hours of work (b) value of labour content, in each $10,000 of production of the following items in Canada:	(i) automobiles
(ii) wheat (iii) milk (iv) canned fruits and vegetables (v) house building (vi) oil at well-head (vii) farm implements (viii) average lead-zinc production (ix) newsprint (x) plywood (xi) herring for reduction (xii) canned sockeye salmon?



DETAILS RESPECTING CANADIAN SATELLITE ALOUETTE

Mr, Matheson: Following the successful launching of the Canadian satellite Alouette from the Pacific missile range on September 29, 1962:
1.	To what extent have the measurement and telemetry systems in the satellite operated successfully since launching?
2.	What new scientific information has so far been obtained from an analysis of the data received from the satellite?
3.	How many Canadian scientists and engineers were employed on the design, development, and testing of this satellite, and for what period of time?
4.	What steps have been taken by the government through its trade commissions and other avenues to publicize this achievement outside Canada?
5.	Are additional satellite experiments planned by the defence research board or the national research council and, if so, at what time may the next launching be expected, and what functions will these future satellites be designed to perform?



* SPECIAL LIVING ALLOWANCE, ARMED FORCES.

[Stage Direction]
-	NFLD.
Mr. Batten: 1.	Is there a special living allowance paid to members of the Canadian armed forces stationed in certain areas in Newfoundland and, if so, what are the names of these areas?
2.	What was the amount of this allowance on January 1, 1962?
3.	Has there been any reduction in this allowance since January 1, 1962 and, if so (a) how much was the reduction (b) at what date was the reduction effective?
4.	Are any further reductions in this allowance contemplated?


Douglas Scott Harkness: Return tabled.



EXPERIMENTAL USE OF LYSERGIC ACID DIETHYLAMIDE

Mr. Matheson: 1. Were experiments conducted at the British Columbia penitentiary with the drug lysergic acid diethylamide and, if so, over what period of time, and with how many prisoners?
2.	What results have been obtained in the cases of (a) alcoholics (b) drug addicts (c) sexual perversion prisoners and (d) obsessive compulsive prisoners?
3.	What results have been reported to the food and drug directorate, department of national health and welfare, by research clinics with respect to the usefulness of L.S.D. in the treatment of alcoholism?
4.	What harmful results attributed to L.S.D. prompted its withdrawal by the food and drug directorate?
5.	Have communications, protesting the decision to withdraw lysergic acid diethylamide from sale or distribution, been received from psychiatric or research institutions, medical groups, or physicians and, if so, how many?



COST OF LIVING ALLOWANCE TO ARMED FORCES AND R.C.M.P., NFLD.

Mr. Tucker: 1.	What rates of special allowances were paid to military personnel and R.C.M.P. to offset the cost of living in the province of Newfoundland in 1948?
2.	What were the rates of such allowances in 1952, 1956, and 1962?



POPULATION AND ACREAGE, MIRAMICHI INDIAN AGENCY BANDS, N.B.

Mr, McWilliam: 1.	What is the total population and number of families residing on each of the Indian reserves of the Miramichi Indian agency located in Northumberland county, New Brunswick?
2.	(a) What is the acreage held for each of the Indian reserves of Red Bank, Burnt Church, and Eel Ground in Northumberland county, New Brunswick, where are these tracts of land located, and what is the respective acreage (b) what portion of these lands, by individual reserves, is considered productive for saw-logs, pulpwood or other forest products (c) what are the quantities of forest products produced off these lands, by individual reserves, for each year 1955 to 1961 inclusive?
(Translation):



AIRPORTS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Lionel Chevrier (Laurier):: I should like to put a question to the Minister of Transport.
Has the minister received a brief from the chamber of commerce of the Montreal district with regard to the means of communication between the Dorval air terminal and the city of Montreal? Does the minister's department intend to put those recommendations in effect?


Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker, I have not received the brief in question, but I read in the Gazette an article in which some points were raised concerning the means of communication between the city of Montreal and the Dorval air terminal. I must assure my hon. friend that all the suggestions made by the Montreal chamber of commerce will be fully looked into.
2486	HOUSE OF
Inquiries of the Ministry
(Text):



UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. John R. Nicholson (Vancouver Centre):: I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Labour. In view of the change made by the unemployment insurance commission in its system of claims payments from a weekly to a biweekly basis, will claimants who appear this week at commission offices have to wait until after Christmas for their next unemployment benefits?


Michael Starr: have received from the unemployment insurance commission the following report. Claimants who report this week and who would normally report on December 24 or 25 will report and be paid on December 21 and 22. Those who would report on December 26 will report on December 27.



PRINTING AND BINDING OF GILL COMMITTEE REPORT

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. J. W. Pickersgill (Bonavisla-Twil-lingate):: Mr. Speaker, on Friday the Secretary of State was good enough to say he would find out when the Gill report would be printed, bound and ready for distribution. Can he now inform the house about it?


George Ernest Halpenny: Not now, Mr. Speaker. I shall inquire and make a report.



TOBACCO-INQUIRY AS TO MARKETING OF SURPLUS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Wallace Bickford (Wally) Nesbitt: should like to direct a question to the Acting Minister of Agriculture. Has the government taken any steps to assist in alleviating the serious situation in the tobacco industry?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member will recognize that a whole series of questions have been directed to the ministry on this subject. None of them has been answered, and a number of them were not accepted.



REFERENCE TO STATEMENTS BY U.S. SENATOR

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Arthur Laing (Vancouver South):: should like to direct a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce. Is the government proposing to make some sort of objection to the most recent outrageous actions


of Senator Wayne Morse in respect to the use of Canadian lumber in the United States?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I think the hon. member will recognize that he has expressed a considerable amount of opinion in his question. I do not know that any particular incident relating to a member of the legislature of some other country would call for a question at this time under those terms.



ELECTRICAL APPLIANCES-PETITION REQUESTING CERTIFICATION FOR SAFETY REQUIREMENTS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. R. Tucker (Trinily-Conception):: should like to direct a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce. Has the minister received a petition from the international association of electrical inspectors recommending in the interests of public safety that the federal and provincial authorities arrange to prevent the sale of electrical equipment and appliances not certified for safety requirements, and if so what action does he propose?


Hon. George H. Hees (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: Mr. Speaker, I have not to my knowledge received such a brief.
(Translation):



PUBLIC SERVICE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Lucien Lamoureux (Stormont):: should like to direct a question to the Minister of Finance. Following the statement he made a moment ago, could he tell us whether he will be in a position to announce a salary increase for postal, immigration and customs employees before the Christmas adjournment?
(Text):


George Clyde Nowlan: As 1 said in my statement earlier this afternoon, the salaries of this class are being reviewed by the civil service commission. Under the act the government can take no action in respect of such increases until it has received the recommendations of the commission.



ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. John R. Matheson (Leeds):: May I
direct a question to the Minister of Justice. Has the minister anything to report to this house in respect of two executions scheduled to take place tonight in Toronto's Don jail?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I think if the hon. member will look at citation 160 in Beau-chesne he will see that his question is out of order.


Mr. Andrew Brewin (Greenwood):: I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Justice. In view of the fact that the execution of two human beings is scheduled to take place in Toronto tomorrow, can the minister indicate to the house that an opportunity will be given to parliament to review the whole question of capital punishment at an early date?


Hon. Donald M. Fleming (Minister of Justice):: Mr. Speaker, I can give no such undertaking. Any hon. members who choose to introduce bills of course may do so subject to the rules of the house.


Hon. Paul Martin (Essex East):: As a supplementary question-


Francis Andrew Brewin: I wish to put a supplementary question. Does the government-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. One cannot just simply shoot out a supplementary question without being recognized, and the hon. member for Essex East was on his feet.


Paul Joseph James Martin: In view of the reply given by the Minister of Justice can the minister say whether the government is giving consideration, as it indicated several years ago it would, to this question in a more final form than now appears to be the case?


Donald Methuen Fleming: I think the hon. member for Essex East has overlooked the fact that parliament legislated on this subject just last year. The Criminal Code was amended by a bill which became chapter 44 of the statutes of 1961, which received royal assent on July 13, 1961, so the whole question has had fairly recent consideration and review by parliament.


Mr. Marlin (Essex Easl):: May I ask the
minister will he take into account what the present Minister of Public Works had to say with regard to future intentions?



INDUSTRY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Harold Edward Winch: I should like to direct a question to the Prime Minister of which I gave notice this morning, and along with which I sent an accompanying letter and a photostatic copy of a press article. After having done that, I should like to ask the Prime Minister if his attention has been drawn to the fact that the California Packing
Inquiries of the Ministry Corporation, having taken over a two thirds interest in Canadian Canners Limited, food processors known by the Aylmer brand, are now threatening to close their major operation in British Columbia to the detriment of British Columbia farmers and industrial workers. Will the Prime Minister interest himself in this most urgent situation?


John George Diefenbaker: I would point out that the control of Canadian Canners was sold to the California Packing Corporation in October, 1956.


Harold Edward Winch: May I ask a supplementary question, sir. I pointed that out to the Prime Minister, but I ask will he do something about their control now and their action in closing this major operation in British Columbia in 1962?


John George Diefenbaker: I am sure the hon. gentleman is aware of the fact that there is no power in the government to control that type of thing in any way. However, after receiving the question I did communicate with those concerned, and I am advised that several plants have been closed, most of which were in Ontario. The production has been enlarged by a concentration of activities in other existing plants. A considerable program of expansion resulted in these centres.
Furthermore it is stated, and this is the information that is given to me, that there is actually more processing of Canadian products being done today in Canada under this amalgamation than heretofore. There are now 16 plants operating throughout the country.



UNITED NATIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Prime Minister when he proposes to carry out the undertaking given by him on more than one occasion during the last 12 months to present personally a resolution to the current United Nations assembly asking for the right of self determination for the captive peoples in iron curtain countries.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, in order to answer this fully it would require some time, and I will give an answer tomorrow in this connection.



SOUTH AFRICA


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. David Lewis (York South):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to

Inquiries of the Ministry the right hon. Prime Minister. In view of the fact that today is human rights day, would the Prime Minister inform the house whether the government is prepared to implement the resolution adopted by the general assembly of the United Nations on November 16, 1962 in respect of the policy of apartheid in the republic of South Africa and more particularly the economic sanctions recommended therein?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I understand that resolution has to go to the security council first before it can be given such consideration.



CANADIAN POSITION ON SANCTIONS AGAINST PORTUGAL

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Donald Stovel Macdonald: I wish to direct a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs. Can the minister advise the house on Canada's position with respect to a resolution before the United Nations general assembly requesting sanctions against Portugal because of the situation in Angola?


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, that resolution is under consideration this afternoon, and I am not in a position to report on it.



EXTERNAL AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, I should like to address a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs based on an exchange in this house on December 6, as reported at page 2375 of Hansard, between the hon. member for Red Deer and the Prime Minister. The former asked the Prime Minister:
Has the government received any communication from the government of India expressing concern over the continuing volume of trade with communist China?
The Prime Minister replied:
I can speak with regard to the situation only up to yesterday. However, no such message has been received.
My question is, is it not a fact that India has conveyed its concern, orally and otherwise, to the minister over our trade with communist China after India found itself under attack?


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, I have
discussed this question personally with the high commissioner for India to Canada. There have been no formal representations made.
(Translation):


NATIONAL DEFENCE
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Marcel Lessard (Lake St. John):: Since my question concerns several departments, I will direct it to the Prime Minister. Could the Prime Minister confirm or deny the fact that Canadian servicemen who are stationed in Europe with their families have to use American money instead of Canadian currency to pay for their purchases in the stores?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member will no doubt agree that his question should be put on the order paper.
(Text):



INDIAN AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Hubert Badanai (Fori William):: I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration of which I have given him notice. Has the minister received a communication from the united steel workers of Thompson, Manitoba, pointing out the difficulties facing the Indians and metis living in that province? If so, can the minister indicate to the house whether any action is under consideration by the government to initiate an investigation into alleged exploitation of Indians in Manitoba?


Hon. Richard A. Bell (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration):: Like all other members of the house, Mr. Speaker, I received a copy of a press release distributed on this subject. This organization has not previously communicated with me directly in my capacity as superintendent general of Indian affairs. The matter was first raised with me by the government of Manitoba last September, acting with their usual efficiency and expedition. The action then taken was thought to be efficacious, and this press release in the midst of an election campaign is the first suggestion of any deterioration in the position.



COLUMBIA RIVER


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. W. Herridge (Kootenay West):: wish to address a question to the Minister of Public Works. In view of the continuing interest in developments with respect to the Columbia river treaty, and in view of the interest created by the mention last Friday of an article on the Columbia by James G. Ripley, with a reply by the honourable the minister, in the September issue of Engineering and Contract Record, would the minister table a copy of this article and his reply to the same?


Hon. E. D. Fulton (Minister of Public Works):: Mr. Speaker, this is not a public document and at the moment I do not have a separate copy of the article to table. I should think, however, that the publication in question is in the library or reading room of parliament where it would be available to hon. members. If it is not, then I imagine that if the matter were discussed with the joint committee on the library steps could be taken to make sure that the publication is available.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I have a supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Unfortunately there are dozens of members wanting to read the article, all at once, and there is only one copy available.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I do not think the hon. member may comment under the guise of a supplementary question.
(Translation):



INQUIRY AS TO GRANT TO BELLECHASSE CONSTITUENCY

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Bernard Dumont (Bellechasse):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Health and Welfare. Has Dr. Lachance, director of the sport commission in St. Damien de Bellechasse, requested a grant to assist sport activities in the constituency of Bellechasse?


Mr. Speaker:: Order.


Bernard Dumont: Mr. Speaker, we have been told that Quebec did not ask for anything, and that is why I am asking that question.


Mr. Speaker:: I do not believe it is necessary to indicate to the hon. member that his ques-
Atlantic Development Board tion is out of order. Indeed, such questions could be asked for all areas from the Atlantic to the Pacific, but that is not to be done on the orders of the day.
(Text):



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Minister of Finance whether he will be asking for interim supply one day this week?


George Clyde Nowlan: Mr. Speaker, when I ask for it will largely depend upon the house leader, but I would expect I might be asking for interim supply this week. Certainly we shall have to obtain interim supply before the Christmas adj ournment.



ATLANTIC DEVELOPMENT BOARD


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed, from Friday, December 7, consideration in committee of Bill No. C-94, to provide for the establishment of an Atlantic development board-Mr. Flemming (Vic-toria-Carleton)-Mr. Chown in the chair.
The Chairman:: Shall clause 1 carry?


Mr.   Mc@: Mr. Chairman, when the committee rose the other day I was speaking about one great project that is being developed in the Atlantic provinces, the Prince Edward Island causeway. Today I would like to deal with a second project, one that will undoubtedly prove to be the biggest tourist attraction that we have or will have in Canada. This is the restoration of the fortress built by the French government in the early eighteenth century at Louisburg on Cape Breton island.
To illustrate the magnitude of the undertaking that is being carried out I would ask hon. members to visualize a building three quarters as long as parliament building itself and three storeys high. That will be one of the buildings to be placed on the restored fortress site.


Harold Edward Winch: What has that got to do with the bill?


Mr.   Mc@: If the hon. member will compose himself in patience he will probably have an answer. I mention the restoration of Louisburg as an example of the type of project that can be developed in the Atlantic provinces. Within a radius of 800 miles we have a natural market of 80 million people

Atlantic Development Board to attract to my native area, and I suggest that any project such as Louisburg, with the beneficial results it is bound to bring, should point the way to one of the functions of the Atlantic development board; that is to maintain liaison with those interested in tourist promotion in the Atlantic provinces and also with those interested in it here, namely the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources, from the standpoint of administration of attractive places, the people looking after national historic sites and parks, and the Department of Trade and Commerce.
The hon. member for Vancouver East may not have very much interest in Louisburg, but in 1745 and again in 1758 events occurred there which were a turn of the hinge of Canadian history, for this mammoth fortress was the key to effective control of both the St. Lawrence waterway and the eastern seaboard of Canada and the United States. Furthermore, it has had something to do with the establishment of the riding from which I come, for Halifax was founded in 1749 as the English-Yankee counterpoise to the threat from Louisburg. I hope hon. members will play up in this house the $12 million investment that is going to be made in that portion of Cape Breton island, for it will bring with it the concomitants of a hotel development, a resource development, a boating development and other recreational developments, and will be one of the great boons not only to the island of Cape Breton but to the whole economy of the Atlantic provinces.
Broadening the theme somewhat, Mr. Chairman, one of the interesting things about development in the past has been the special allocation of $300,000 in the last three or four years to promote tourism for the Atlantic area in the nearby United States market. This has paid off very handsomely. As I said before, history has been one of our great natural resources in the maritimes, and since 1957 the government has certainly seized upon this resource and developed it with both skill and vigour. I have in my hands figures issued recently by the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources showing the number of visitors to various national parks and major historic sites across Canada. There are such significant increases as 80,000 more visitors to the Cape Breton highlands this year, 233,000 to the Anne of Green Gables country, 33,000 to Signal Hill in St. John's, Newfoundland, and almost 12,000 to the Halifax Citadel. Therefore I say that in my opinion the Atlantic development board and its members should keep in close liaison with the departments in Ottawa which administer


or promote the great national historic sites that we have in abundance in Atlantic Canada.
Turning to another point, Mr. Chairman, if I may, there have been various suggestions as to how the problems of Atlantic Canada could be most usefully tackled. There has been a school of thought which advocates that this be done by a department of government. The hon. member for Burnaby-Coquitlam mentioned this the other day, and I believe during the election campaign the hon. member for Davenport proffered this as the solution of the Liberal party. I was very pleased to see another Liberal, the hon. member for inverness-Richmond, reject outright the notion of establishing a department of Atlantic affairs. If any more backward step could be imagined in the House of Commons I hardly know what it could be. It would almost set us apart from the rest of Canada as either a special institution or a plantation, and I am sure the hon. member for Burnaby-Coquitlam and those other hon. members who advocate such a department will quickly switch their tune if they think of the pride of the people involved in my particular region, and come to appreciate that an advisory board is a much better approach to Atlantic problems.
I have already dealt with some of those things which I consider should be functions of the board. There is the development of those things which we have, for example our historical heritage, rather than following the will-o'-the-wisp things that we have not. There are at least two provinces in Canada which have tried the experiment of spending large amounts of taxpayers' money for the development of industry, with very little success. The trail of smoke from the bonfires of the taxpayers' money and the deficit operations of crown corporations in Newfoundland and Saskatchewan should surely indicate that government is not primarily at its best in the field of business. None the less, this does not prevent a board such as we are considering today from performing useful functions, particularly in its advice on measures and projects.
I have an interesting quotation from one of the spokesmen at the recent meeting of the Atlantic provinces economic council at Fredericton, Claude K. Howse, Newfoundland representative of the Iron Ore Company of Canada. Here is how he treats the problem:
The hoard must be empowered to "advise on measures and projects" in both the public and private sectors. Certainly, provincial governments and their agencies should have access to the new federal agency to assist in the development of public facilities, such as transportation and power generation and transmission. A province should

also be able to apply to the board for assistance in the establishment of industrial estates or similar projects designed to encourage industrialization directly. But just as important, it will be necessary for the board to be in a position to encourage and assist the private sector, either directly or through the provincial governments, in new resource exploration and development, and in the location of cornerstone plants, in the development, in primary resource industry areas, of secondary industry related industrially or economically to the primary industry, and other enterprises which can have an impact on the course of economic progress.
I thought his words so sensible, Mr. Chairman, that I have taken the liberty of putting them into the debate. Finally, sir, there is a point which I hope the new board will consider. Again I return to the theme that we should build up those things that we have, rather than follow will-o'-the-wisp [DOT]endeavours that will simply represent a costly wasting of taxpayers' money.
One thing I would like to see is the enhancement of one of the great industries in the Atlantic provinces; that is, the diversification of the Sydney steel plant operations. This would not only be of great benefit to Cape Breton island but it would also be of special benefit to a large industry in my own riding, the Halifax shipyards, which would be able to use-if my hopes in this respect are realized-rolled steel from an expanded Sydney plant for the many excellent ships it builds for public and private enterprise.
These are some of the thoughts that pass through my mind. I certainly will support this imaginative proposal. I have great faith in the Minister of National Revenue and the Minister of Finance. I know they will choose personnel who will transform the words we are considering this afternoon into a magic which will bring new hope and happiness to my area.


Mr. Crossman:: Mr. Chairman, it is a sad coincidence that on the very day we are discussing in this house a matter pertaining to the Atlantic region it should become my duty to pay homage to the memory of one who spent a lifetime of tireless effort for the improvement of the maritimes and of New Brunswick especially.
On Saturday, December 8 Mr. Allison Dysart passed from this life into eternity. The belief that we are to be rewarded in the next life in the same measure as we have served in this one will, no doubt, be of great consolation to his family and his myriad friends. His passing closes another era in the history of New Brunswick. He was a native son of Kent county, the county I am proud to represent in this house. He was premier of New Brunswick from 1935 to 1940, and will always be remembered in the province as the first to bring in legislation for the
Atlantic Development Board comfort of the aged. I know that hon. gentlemen on all sides will join me in extending to Mrs. Dysart and the family our sincere sympathy.
It is not my intention to retard in any way the progress of legislation which could be of assistance to the Atlantic region, for we all know that assistance of any kind has been long overdue. I am in accord with the suggestions of some of the hon. members who have spoken that we should let the past rest in peace and look to the future, but it is inevitable that we take a good look at the present, also, and what we see in the maritimes is not so encouraging. Thank God we have in the Atlantic provinces a people who are hardy and industrious and who have an inexhaustible reserve of initiative in surmounting the obstacles in the way of making what we call a bare living. I am referring to the farmers and fishermen who make up a big part of our population of the maritimes. These are the people who work from daylight to dark to bring up and educate their families, and they are doing a herculean job of it considering the disadvantages they encounter.
As one who knows, Mr. Chairman, I say that the fishermen have to expose thousands of dollars worth of equipment and gear to the elements, not to mention their own lives, in order to eke out a living from the sea. Not infrequently they leave orphans and widows behind. We know that an indemnity insurance exists, with respect to boats and lobster traps, but such provisions as these do not cover the loss suffered by widows and orphans or comfort them in their distress. Another thing we must realize is this. It is extremely hard to persuade a man to pay insurance premiums when he is hard pressed for money needed by his own family.
One could go on and on when speaking of matters which concern the fishing industry, the condition of some wharves, the necessity for dredging channels to improve the fishing and shipping industries in the maritimes, and so on. When we note that the value of the lobster fishing alone to the Atlantic region is in the vicinity of $15 million a year, hon. members can realize how important the fishing industry is to this whole area.
It is a well known fact that if the population of the maritimes were larger the individual burden of taxation would be lighter. The construction and maintenance of highways in the rural areas, of which the Atlantic region is mostly comprised, costs as much per mile as it does in a thickly populated area. The same applies to all other public services. We must face the fact that our people, anxious to equip their children for

Atlantic Development Board the future, must see that they get an education. The cost of schools and their staffing in rural areas puts a tremendous load on the municipalities which, in turn, must tax the farm properties to a point which makes it almost impossible for the farmers to survive. Some move away, and the additional burden falls on those who remain.
Until a few years ago the farmers were not too greatly affected by the situation, for they could always rely on income from pulp-wood cut on their wood lots during the slack season. This furnished them with a ready source of cash, but unfortunately this market is no longer available. It is discouraging to reflect that something which is absolutely essential if our youth are to be prepared for the future is indirectly the cause of many of them having to migrate to the industrialized sections of upper Canada. The maritime provinces, the birthplace of confederation, made many sacrifices to make Canada a nation and are still contributing royally of their most cherished potential, their youth.
This is the situation which exists in most of the rural parts of the maritimes. What is needed to stimulate the economy and relieve unemployment is direct action on the part of this government by devoting a larger share of the capital expenditures to the construction of public works and harbours in the region, and by finding ways and means of lightening the tax load at the municipal level. If this were done the Atlantic development board would have time to develop long term measures toward a stable and prosperous economy in the region.
May I suggest that if this government had paid more attention to the requests and advice of our Atlantic premiers we would be well on our way. I think in all fairness we deserve more than a board which is to function in an advisory capacity only, based in importance on a maritime standard of remuneration.


Mr. Stewart:: I want to say initially that I agree wholeheartedly with the comments of the hon. member for Halifax-the taller member for Halifax-in what he said about the development of the old fortress of Louisburg. My hope is that this will be a great and continuing tourist attraction. As the hon. member knows, we have many such sites in the Atlantic provinces to which tourists are coming in increasing numbers, and anything that this or any other government can do to make these sites more attractive is to be commended.
On Friday the Minister of National Revenue referred to the $3,000 proposed as an honorarium for the chairman of the Atlantic development board as a ridiculous figure, and

announced his intention to move an amendment to change it. Mr. Chairman, this is an important point. The bill which is before us came to this house as a carefully considered piece of legislation. We may be sure that the minister weighed every provision and every phrase with the utmost care. In doing so he approved the figure of $3,000 as an appropriate honorarium for the chairman of this board.
I suggest that this figure is important to this committee, because it gives us a good idea of the government's opinion of the work to be done by the Atlantic development board. This board is not to be very active. It is presumably, to meet three or four times a year, and the government is fixing an honorarium commensurate with the activities of the board. Similarly, in fixing honoraria for the other members the government is giving due attention to its view of how active this board is to be, for it has assigned to those other members no remuneration whatsoever.
Now, sir, the minister has seen that this figure of $3,000 discloses the true nature of this board. Immediately he tries to becloud the fact with candour. He comes to this committee and says that this figure, of course, is "ridiculous." Moreover, by suggesting that the honorarium will be raised he now falls into inconsistency, for he has not yet proposed any honoraria whatsoever for the other members of the board. I do not know just how much the minister means to imply by his word "ridiculous", but if the chairman is to receive some such figure as $10,000 or $12,000, surely the other four members ought to receive payment also.
Last Thursday and Friday we were exhorted by the minister to be enthusiastic. I think only the hon. member for Queens-Lunenburg displayed what one might consider the proper degree of joy and thankfulness for this proposed legislation. Not even the hon. member for Halifax, in his balanced remarks just now concluded, came up to the level that the minister suggested.
We on this side, sir, believe that the minister is quite sincere in his zeal for this bill, yet I can assure you that in our expressions of disappointment we are equally sincere. This bill creates a part time board which is to study certain matters and advise an unspecified minister. Evidently the explanation of the misunderstanding is that our expectations were very different from the expectations of the minister. Our expectations were far higher than his. We expected more from this government than even he did.
As any member of this committee who has had any special reason to be interested in programs for surplus labour areas knows, in certain European countries such as Great

Britain, West Germany, France, Belgium, Denmark, Sweden and Italy there are under way important programs dealing with the problem of surplus labour areas. Four different kinds of regional development tactics or devices have been employed; loans, grants, tax incentives and government assistance in site improvement and plant construction. Of these four the first two, loans and grants, have been used most frequently and are apparently by far the most successful. Loans and grants are often used to supplement each other. A company will be given a loan at a very low interest rate for part of its capital needs. For example, in Belgium the interest rate is geared to the acceleration or deceleration of the national economy, so that the interest rate in a period of depression might be as low as 1 per cent. The other two devices, tax incentives and site improvements, have not been used so extensively. Indeed, only Great Britain and Belgium have used site improvement and plant construction to any considerable extent.
Now, sir, knowing that these methods have been tried in other countries, and knowing that a great deal of thought has been given in the United States to this matter of surplus labour areas, we had hoped that this government would come to this house, and eventually to this committee, with an elaborated program for the Atlantic provinces. However, we have not had such a program put before us, and I wish to assure the minister through you, sir, that the disappointment which we express is entirely genuine.
A fifth device has been mooted. I almost hesitate to mention it; I do not wish to arouse some members opposite, because I have noticed that this is a very delicate point with them. I refer to labour migration assistance. Whenever one mentions labour migration assistance, or indeed whenever one mentions the name of the hon. member for Davenport, one can generally count on an eruption from certain seats on the other side of the house. Unfortunately no one will rise to that bait now.
You may recall, sir, that in the report of the Gordon commission there is a suggestion on pages 412 and 413 that if various methods for dealing with labour surplus are not effective, then the government is to intervene to assist people in moving to towns and places where they may obtain employment. After a great deal of exclamation from campaign orators and from the government benches in this house, the government has finally decided that Mr. Gordon may have been correct after all. So we now find a bill before this house, Bill No. C-83, respecting industrial change and manpower adjustment, which provides that the minister may make an agreement-
Atlantic Development Board
-to provide for the payment by Canada of a labour mobility incentive consisting of a contribution in respect of the cost incurred by such province, person or both, as the case may be, for the transportation of workers and their dependants to an area in Canada where employment is available.
The ultimate conversion of the government to the view expressed earlier by the hon. member for Davenport has been commented on in the press. I have in my hand an editorial from the Moncton Transcript which I think the committee will find entertaining. One paragraph says:
The Introduction of a "labour mobility" scheme to assist in the relocation of workers who become unemployed as a result of industrial changes is probably a worth while, but somewhat superficial attempt at tackling a problem which has particular application in the maritimes.
But beyond this there is the fact that the Progressive Conservatives, who are introducing the new legislation, were the party who criticized most vigorously a similar suggestion in the report of the Gordon royal commission.
Then the editor goes on to divert himself with speculation concerning the joy that this particular bill must give to the heart of the hon. member for Davenport. So, sir, labour migration assistance is a fifth method that has at times been used. It has not yet been used extensively. The principal country using it has been Sweden, but soon we will be able to add Canada to Sweden in this regard.
The minister has assured us that we should be happy with this board. Perhaps we should take him seriously, sir, for after all he knows more about the thinking of this government than we do. He knows more about how slowly it progresses in dealing with serious problems. If he comes to this committee and says, as he has, that this bill represents a great step forward in the thinking of the government, then I suggest we should believe what he says.


Robert Jardine McCleave: Mr. Chairman, I merely want to clarify a remark I made in my earlier contribution. I misunderstood something that the hon. member for Vancouver East said and I should not like myself to be on record as suggesting that he has no interest in the maritime provinces. I regret that I made that statement.
(Translation) :


Bernard Dumont: Mr. Chairman, I shall only say a few words to mention that this morning, I came across a large headline in the Evangeline, the newspaper from Moncton:
Is the Atlantic board serious?
Indeed, after having heard the bombastic words and the numerous speeches made on the setting up of commissions and boards, we may wonder if those agencies are created to organize something which will merely

Atlantic Development Board be a subject for discussion or something which will bring adequate revenues in the Atlantic provinces.
I suggest that the journalists are right in asking whether the board is serious.
The member who had the floor before me just referred to the dilatoriness of government agencies. Well, I have discovered in the Glassco report that not very long ago, under the Liberal government, works had been provided for at Port-aux-Basques. Here is an example of a completely abnormal situation:
In accordance with the terms of union of Newfoundland and Canada, a freight and passenger steamship service is maintained between North Sydney, Nova Scotia, and Port-aux-Basques, Newfoundland. The program was initiated in 1951 and called for the construction of a ferry and docks and terminal facilities in each province. Three separate agencies of government and several firms of consulting engineers participated in this work which, as a result of a series of costly errors, was not completed until 1959. The ferry, when built, could not be docked at the newly constructed facilities at Port-aux-Basques. The final solution, reached after calling in an experienced adviser from the United Kingdom, required extensive dredging and channel rectification. The total costs exceeded $20 million.
At that time, we saw the tremendous importance of those commissions. And, of course, once again the companies were the ones to benefit from that situation whereas the individual has not been favoured. When we ask the government to increase family allowances, we are told there is not enough money. Nevertheless, the Atlantic development board will submit its recommendations, and if we have no money, if we have deficits of $700 million, how shall we be able to consider seriously in this house the recommendations of those agencies?
I am not against the development board, but I would like to see it bring about results. I am afraid that this board, which we are now allowed to discuss, will be like the various boards set up under the Liberals and that it will take eight years before it can be of any real benefit.
(Text):


Mr. Carter:: Mr. Chairman, the one concrete thing about this bill we have before us is that it provides that a minister is to be designated to deal with the board and that the minister may refer to the board from time to time certain specific projects for study and recommendation. I should like to take a few minutes now to draw to the minister's attention two or three specific projects which would be of tremendous benefit to the economy of my own riding and also to that of the province of Newfoundland.

The first project I wish to bring to the minister's attention is the development of a free port or transshipment port at Mortier bay. This is a dream that is 50 years old. Recently a company has been formed and I understand that surveys have been made not only by the company but by a departmental committee and that already in the files of the Department of Public Works or some other department, probably the Department of Transport, there is information indicating that Mortier bay is a strategically situated focal point along the world's trade routes. I understand that the studies and surveys that have been carried out prove that the harbour is very satisfactory, and apparently all that is needed to bring this project into being is to bring together the commercial interests involved in such a way that they can get started on the project.
If this project came into being it would be a tremendous development that would benefit not only Newfoundland but all of Canada because it envisages goods being brought into Mortier bay, processed there and shipped out to other parts of the world. As I said earlier, the strategic position of Mortier bay makes this project feasible. I also understand that it has the blessing of our friends from the prairie provinces because the Hudson bay route association is most interested in having more wheat shipped through Churchill and stored at Mortier bay for transshipment. As soon as the new board comes into being I would ask the minister to refer this specific project to them for immediate study.
The second project I would ask the minister to refer to the board is the development of hydroelectric power at bay d'Espoir which is in my own riding. At bay d'Espoir we are fortunate in having a potential of half a million horsepower which can be developed at tidewater and the consumption of only 70,000 horsepower is required to make the project commercially feasible. A few years ago the project came within a hair's breadth of being realized but it was found impossible to get the companies having an option for this amount of power together at the right time. By the time the last person was brought into the agreement the first person who had wanted power withdrew from the project because of not being able to wait any longer, and that is why the development did not take place.
There is no doubt that the development of this power at bay d'Espoir would transform the whole economy of my riding and would be of tremendous assistance to the economy of the whole province. I hope the minister will refer this project to the board at once.

The hon. member for Halifax mentioned earlier the restoration of the old fort at Louisburg. I would suggest to the minister the board study a similar project, namely the restoration and development of Castle Hill at Placentia which is the old historic French capital of my province. 1 would recommend also the study of similar sites in the province. Such developments could be of great benefit to our tourist industry.
In this connection, I would ask the minister to have a study made of the feasibility of finding a more suitable terminal for Canadian National Railways. As the minister is probably aware, the eastern terminal is at Argentia, which is a military base leased to the United States authorities for a period of 90 years. We have been told that a new ferry is to be built which will ply between the east coast of Newfoundland and North Sydney in Nova Scotia. The Newfoundland terminal will be located at Argentia. There are many reasons why this is an unsatisfactory place for the terminal, not only for this particular ferry but for the whole coastal service operated by the railway along the south coast. I know that representations have been made to the government indicating that there are other sites which are much better suited to this proposal. Since our tourist industry is becoming of such importance, and since it ties in with the development of the fort at Castle Hill, I would suggest further consideration be given to this matter. Since the government actually owns the railway service in Newfoundland and the railway management would do what the government wanted in this respect, I would suggest that the minister have this board look into this matter of finding a more suitable terminal.
Before I resume my seat, 1 should like to support the representations made by my colleague the hon. member for Grand Falls-White Bay-Labrador in respect of the fishing industry which is still of major importance in my province and about which there is a new enthusiasm and a new effort being made to try to put it back on a sound footing. I think one of the main problems in connection with the fishing industry in the promotion of sales in various markets on the mainland. This is probably one other thing that can be looked into. I would remind the minister, too, that in all the years the Conservative party sat in opposition they were very strong proponents of a Canadian merchant fleet. I am one of those who believes that there is a place in our economy for a Canadian owned merchant fleet. This, too, 1 think is a project worthy of study by the development board.


Mr. McWilliam:: Mr. Chairman, I know that the committee is anxious to get on with a
Atlantic Development Board clause by clause study of this measure. However, there are a few remarks I should like to make in connection with this interesting matter that is before us. I can assure you I will only take a very few minutes. Hon. members are familiar with the terms of the resolution, but I would remind them that the throne speech contained this paragraph:
You will be asked to authorize the establishment of an Atlantic development board to advise on measures and projects that will promote the economic development of the Atlantic region of Canada.
The presentation of the resolution preceding Bill No. C-94 has been received with great fanfare in the daily press of the Atlantic region. Large type headlines on the front pages lauding this measure lead the public in the provinces by the Atlantic to believe it is a quick cure-all and to believe that all the economic ills of the area will be resolved forthwith. In this connection, it is realistic and responsible that a somewhat sober note should be injected into the public's mind. They should be reminded that great things will not be accomplished overnight. However, if this legislation does accomplish anything it would be to hold out the hope that eventually the situation will be faced and that improvements will follow. I think this is something the people of the maritime provinces will receive with rightful anticipation after many, many years, and they will hope that finally something will be done about their problems.
This Bill No. C-94 seeks only to set up a board which will provide the government with suggested projects for the improvement of the economy of the area. One might well ask, is this board so vitally needed as the public is being led to believe? The projects that are generally felt to be necessary to bring about a stable economy in the Atlantic provinces do not need to be related to the government or to the people in the maritime provinces by a board established under this bill. The necessary action to bring about improvement in the Atlantic economy can be taken by the government now. There is an abundance of data available compiled by APEC and other groups that can be used to lay the foundation for government action. This data has been available since APEC first started to function. What will a board comprised of a $3,000 a year chairman and five non-indemnified members produce that has not already been produced?
I noted what the minister said on Friday, that the amount of $3,000 was ridiculous and would be bettered, but he did not say by what amount. However, I believe that when you establish a board with a chairman receiving an indemnity of $3,000 a year, it

Atlantic Development Board reveals the fact the government itself is not putting too much confidence in this board. Perhaps, however, the government feels someone who is not concerned about the remuneration will offer his services. The time required to set up this board and for the board to review the data already compiled will further delay government action on the Chignecto complex, the Northumberland strait causeway, the coal mining and fishing industries as well as other phases of the Atlantic economy. These areas require action now, action which only the government can take because of the expenditure of public funds required. What is needed is direct action to provide the public funds with which to commence some of these vital projects and improvements. Following that there can be a planned approach to the development of other projects in order to bring about improvements that are the inherent rights of the people of the Atlantic provinces.
We recognize that Bill C-94 will be approved and passed, but the people of the Atlantic provinces will have to wait to see what benefits will follow the setting up of this board. Personally I sincerely hope and trust that the benefits will accrue without undue delay.
As to the personnel of the board, it is suggested that it should be representative of all the Atlantic provinces and that its members will be fully qualified to advise in those fields in which our economy is lacking. Leadership by government is a most essential factor in achieving the desired results and this leadership should not be delegated to any board or commission. When suggestions or advice are sought by the government, then no delay should be tolerated in reaching decisions.
I am sure I express the hopes and desires of all people in the Atlantic provinces, and of other peoples in the confederation family, when I say there is a sound expectation that the basic economic problems of the area will at last be acted upon and their solution undertaken without further delay. No matter what the political aspects might be, it is not so important who solves these problems or how they are solved, but it is vitally important that their solutions be expedited in order to bring about equal partnership among all regions of Canada.
Hon. members who have already taken part in this debate have told of certain requirements which they feel are necessary in their individual constituencies. They have brought them to the attention of the minister, who in turn will bring them to the attention of the new board when it is constituted. In this regard I only want to mention one thing in particular with respect to the constituency of Northumberland-Miramichi.

I would ask the minister to bring to the attention of the board something that has been under study for some time past, and that is the deepening of the channel of the Miramichi river and the improvement of harbour facilities at the ports of Chatham and Newcastle. As a native maritimer I sincerely hope and trust that at long last we shall get something under way to bring about these things we need so vitally, and I am sure that the minister, who is also a native maritimer, will do his utmost to see that the desired end is achieved. I am one of those who believe that, irrespective of what a government does, it should be commended for those things that are beneficial.
In conclusion I wish to join with my colleague from Kent in expressing regret at the death of Judge Dysart, a former premier of the province of New Brunswick. I also join with him in extending condolences to the family of this great New Brunswicker who has passed on to his just reward after serving his province so well for so many years.


Mr. McGrath:: Mr. Chairman, I listened with great interest to my hon. friend from Burin-Burgeo, as I did likewise to the speech of the hon. member for Grand Falls-White Bay-Labrador.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Both excellent
speeches.


James Aloysius McGrath: Both excellent speeches, as the hon. member for Essex East has interjected, and I would like to say a few words in support of the arguments advanced by my tv/o colleagues from Newfoundland because I believe that in their own way, and in a very good and sensible way, they advanced very strong arguments in favour of the establishment of the Atlantic development board.
In his speech the hon. member for Burin-Burgeo mentioned two projects that he commended to the minister and asked that they be studied by the board, and I would like to refer to them briefly. He mentioned the establishment of a free port at Mortier bay. This is a project that has been under active promotion for the last several years. It has been studied by various agencies and its importance to the economy of Newfoundland and the Atlantic provinces generally cannot be underestimated. Here is where this new board could really do something worth while in undertaking a study of a project such as this and, at the same time, assimilating and co-ordinating the studies and promotions that have gone on before in connection with it. This project has been mentioned in the house on numerous occasions and I hope that the board, when it is set up, will give active study

to the establishment of a free port in Newfoundland which is, as I say, of vital importance not only to that province but to all the Atlantic provinces.
The hon. member for Burin-Burgeo also referred to the development of hydro power at bay d'Espoir, on the south coast of Newfoundland, and I believe these two projects are related. One is almost dependant on the other. If a free port is established at Mortier bay I believe it will mean the influx of small industries, the establishment of substantial storage facilities, elevators and so on, which would create a demand for additional hydro power that could be supplied by the development of hydro at bay d'Espoir. Then too, with the new techniques for the transmission of hydro power, I believe the development of bay d'Espoir holds tremendous possibilities.
The hon. member also referred to tourism, to the present terminal for the C.N.R. at Argentia, and to the use of this terminal as a terminal for the proposed new ferry which will operate between eastern Newfoundland and the mainland of Nova Scotia. I support the hon. member in these remarks because I believe that, before it is finally decided that Argentia should be the terminal for this all important ferry, further studies should be undertaken, and I think reference should be made to the board to make sure that the Newfoundland terminal for the ferry will be a maximum benefit to the promotion of the tourist industry in our province. I think the hon. gentleman will forgive me for saying the board should certainly give consideration to the advisability of having the eastern terminal closer to the city of St. John's and the concentration of population.
Speaking of tourism I believe the board can provide a tremendous service in co-ordinating efforts of various agencies such as the governments of the provinces, municipal governments, boards of trade and chambers of commerce, in addition to APEC, towards the general promotion of tourism and the promotion of specific projects that would be incentives to tourism. I believe there is a tremendous job to be done here, especially in my own province, and the greatest need is the need of coordination. Everyone seems to be going off in different directions and somebody must coordinate the efforts of all because tourism is very important to the three maritime provinces and to the province of Newfoundland where it holds tremendous possibilities.
In relation to tourism the hon. member referred to historic sites and the development of Louisburg in Cape Breton, and he spoke of the need for similar undertakings in the province of Newfoundland where we have
Atlantic Development Board, many major historic sites. Among the historic sites to which he referred was Castle Hill in Placentia, the historic French capital of Newfoundland. I hope the board will undertake an active consideration of the advisability of developing this site and will recommend to the government that this type of site be developed. Certainly, as I said, not the least of such sites is the one located in Placentia.
My hon. friend from Grand Falls-White Bay-Labrador referred in his speech to the fishing industry and the service the board could provide in this particular area. This is a very important area. I am pleased to say the government of Newfoundland has of late been active in this regard. They called a convention of trades people, merchants, fishermen and like-minded people with a view to their coming up with recommendations to the government of the province toward the formation of a new policy on fisheries. The importance of the fisheries to the Atlantic coast of Canada is of course of tremendous significance. I feel that here is certainly an area where the board can really justify its existence by co-ordinating the efforts of various agencies, recommending projects to the government that would be of encouragement to the fishing industry, exploring markets for our fish produce, and of course looking for new markets, ways of improving those markets, and so on.
All these projects-and of course one could go on and name many others-are of tremendous importance to the general development of the Atlantic provinces. But I feel that what is of real importance is the fact that at long last we are about to set up a board which will give real meaning to the development of these various projects and will undertake to work with the very competent Minister of National Revenue, the minister from New Brunswick. I am sure that at long last some of these projects which have been talked about for many years now have a better chance of materializing because we are about to set up this Atlantic development board.


Mr. Batten:: Mr. Chairman, I know there has been a good deal of debate on the first item of this bill and I will not delay the committee unduly, but I would like to indicate my support for this proposed board. I know that the board is going to be advisory in nature. In our part of Canada we have the Atlantic provinces economic council. This council has done a good deal of commendable research. It has been able to suggest topics that are important to the maritime and Atlantic provinces and I think at times they
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Atlantic Development Board have indicated the methods which should be adopted if these ideas are to be brought to fruition.
Perhaps one of the difficulties of the Atlantic provinces economic council is that there has been no vehicle whereby the ideas the council may have can be transmitted to the inner circle of government. Perhaps this board we are proposing will be the vehicle that will be able to do that; perhaps it will be sufficient to do the job that is required to be done. Personally I would like to see this board composed of members who are more firmly committed to the task in hand and with a little bit more executive authority than its members are given in this bill. However, when a body of men such as will compose this board turn their attention to the task that has to be accomplished in the Atlantic provinces I hope they will remember that doing what needs to be done in this area is not always a matter of doing something new. It may indeed in large part amount to improving what is already being done. I think there are many things going on in the Atlantic provinces at the moment that are not being conducted in a way that gives the most to the economy of that part of Canada. I hope this board will be able to make suggestions to various divisions of the economy so that these things that are being done will be done more effectively, not only for the people who are directly concerned but also for the area as a whole.
In the constituency from which I come we have a problem to which I hope the board will give serious attention. In 1941-42, during the early years of the second world war, the Americans came to the west coast of Newfoundland and there set up a tremendous air force base. Over a period of 15 or 20 years there was a great deal of construction work carried out there. It was obvious that while this large amount of construction work was going ahead men were going to be drawn from the fishing industry, from the farming industry and other small industries and would go into the construction field where good wages were to be earned. This was the position for a considerable length of time. However, it must have been obvious to all concerned that the time would come when this construction had to cease and the United States base would settle down to normal operations. We have now, on the west coast of Newfoundland, reached that position.
It is very easy, if a fisherman decides he is going to move from the fishing industry into some other type of work, for him to haul his boat up on the beach, lock up his nets and gear in a shed and move on. As I say, it is very easy to do that; but when the time comes for him to move back into the


fishing industry the transformation is not so easy. Here in this section of Newfoundland- and I am referring particularly to the Port-au-Port peninsula-we have hundreds of men who left the fishing industry 20 years ago and worked on the construction of the base at Harmon field. Now that construction has finished and they have to go back to the fishing industry. The going back is rather difficult. To begin with, they do not have the money to set themselves up as individual fishermen. Then, of course, due to the fact that for a number of years there has not been as large a number of fishermen as there might have been, we do not have the fish firms set up there as they have in other parts of Newfoundland or indeed in other parts of Nova Scotia. Here is one problem of labour movement to which I hope this board will pay very serious attention.
While I am referring to the fishing industry, Mr. Chairman, I hope too that this board will pay particular attention to the northern part of Newfoundland. This is a section of Newfoundland where there is almost no industry other than fishing. A few years ago there was considerable employment in forestry-in the logging industry. Employment opportunities in this area have decreased, however, and the result is that here we have one of the few areas in Canada where men make approximately 100 per cent of their total income from fishing. I hope this board will pay particular attention to the problems these men encounter; some of them are peculiar to this particular region.
I believe there is a good deal which could be done in agriculture. Newfoundland is not agricultural country and I suggest it will never be an agricultural province in the sense that other parts of Canada are. Nevertheless, I think it is possible for Newfoundland to provide for itself larger amounts of agricultural products than it is doing now-products of the kind which are normally brought in at the present time from other parts of Canada or other parts of the world. On the west coast of Newfoundland there is a good deal of agriculture carried on mostly in the domain of small vegetables. In the last year or two we have been faced with a difficult problem there in the control of insects. How we are going to overcome this seems beyond the farmer and there is a real need for some expert assistance. The minister is familiar with the difficulty we encounter in the control of insects and forestry. That, of course, affects many more people. Nevertheless, the control of insects in the Robinson's area and the Codroy valley will require a good deal of research.

I do not believe any province such as Newfoundland is going to get very far with economic development until proper means of transportation are provided. Of the approximately 600 miles of trans-Canada highway in Newfoundland, almost 200 are in my own constituency. When we talk about the tourist industry these days we are talking, I think, about people who want to travel from one part of Canada to another by car. People like to come into an area and drive by car over roads which provide comfortable travelling-roads which enable them, too, to go from one place to another in as short a time as possible. One of the real problems in Newfoundland is the inability to complete the trans-Canada highway at an early date. I am one of those who believe-I said this when I was on the other side of the house, I have said it here, and now I say it again -that when the federal government of Canada decided to build the trans-Canada highway they should have decided, by agreement with the provinces, to build that highway from the Atlantic to the Pacific, to pay for it and maintain it. I think that is what should have been done. I do not think we are too far from the point when we shall be facing a real problem in the maintenance of the trans-Canada highway. Anyway, had the course I advocated been followed I suppose we would not have the trouble we are encountering in Newfoundland at the present time.
It is all very well to talk about the tourist industry in Newfoundland. I believe we have the potential for a great tourist industry. But if people wish to travel by car we have, first of all, to get them on to the island. At the moment there is only one ferry taking cars to the island, though a few cars can come by other boats. And when they get there they have to travel over roads that are not paved. So I would say to the minister that one of the problems which this board should consider in all seriousness is the question of being able to provide for the province of Newfoundland the same road transport facilities as are provided in most of the other provinces. I drive my own car from Corner Brook to Ottawa, sometimes more than once a year, and I have the opportunity to use the trans-Canada highway in some of the other provinces. I do hope the time is not too far distant when I shall have the privilege of driving over roads in Newfoundland which are paved as well as they are in the minister's own province.
Power development is another necessity if we are to promote the establishment of industry and particularly of small industries which, I think, are important to a province such as ours. I do not think we need a very
Atlantic Development Board large number of giant sized industries right across Canada. I think the background of the economy is provided by a large number of smaller businesses employing a few men here, a few there, and so on. But one of the prerequisites to such a development is electric power readily available at a low price. I was glad to hear the comments of my hon. friend from Burin-Burgeo and also from the hon. member for St. John's East who mentioned the development of power on the south coast of Newfoundland. There is, indeed, considerable power potential there to be developed and I think this is a project to which the board might well give serious and early attention.
I should like to say a word on vocational training, as it relates to this subject, but since we shall have an opportunity to discuss this matter on another bill which is before the house I shall refrain from speaking at any length at the moment. However, I believe that if industries of various types are to be developed, or if we are to expand the industries which are already operating in the province, we shall have to provide the particular types of training which are so important. In Ontario and in western Canada generally a good deal of technical training has been provided, I believe, for those who work on farms. We, in Newfoundland, need training of this type. Our fishermen will need a special type of training if they are going to earn a living, not as their fathers did, but as fishermen who must operate in modern times. I do hope the board will take an interest in these vocational training programs when it is considering the economic problems of Newfoundland even though other government agencies may be dealing more directly with this particular subject. I have some ideas on vocational training, which is closely allied to my own profession. I do not intend to state them now but I will take advantage of the opportunity which will arise later to say what I think should be done; particularly in the eastern part of Canada.


Mr. Granger:: I hope I shall be forgiven, Mr. Chairman, for taking a few more minutes, but I shall try to be brief. I should like to express appreciation of the remarks made by the hon. member for St. John's East, the hon. member for Burin-Burgeo and the hon. member for Humber-St. George's, all of whom referred to matters which are of great interest to the province from which I come.
Tourism is extremely important to us. I doubt very much if most of us can visualize the tremendous potential which it has. No doubt it would be difficult for any of us to speak objectively of the attractions of our own provinces, but suffice it to say that when

Atlantic Development Board we assert that Newfoundland offers delightful attractions we are only quoting what so many visitors have told us. But in order for tourism to be the industry which it can be, it is of overwhelming importance that the trans-Canada highway be completed in Newfoundland. The high cost of building this road is placing a very great strain on the government of Newfoundland, and I would stress the importance of the completion of the trans-Canada highway in the Atlantic provinces by the federal government. It is, as I say, of tremendous importance, and it is impossible to overstress this. I would hope that the new board will give serious attention to the matter.
I might also mention in connection with historic sites the interesting discoveries which have been made in L'Anse aux Meadows in northern Newfoundland. The ruins which have been excavated over the past two years seem to prove that there was a Viking settlement at L'Anse aux Meadows on the northern tip of the great northern peninsula a thousand years ago. I am no authority on this, but I am told that the authenticity of these ruins has been all but proven. I really do not know whether those who are competent to judge have handed down a final decision, but my latest information is that the ruins seem to be authentic. That area will soon be connected by road. There is a long road up the coast of Newfoundland to within a comparatively few miles of this area. I would hope that the board would pay particular attention to these ruins, where a thousand years ago there was a settlement of Vikings who had sailed across the Atlantic to discover this great nation of Canada which is ours today.
Then the question of trade was mentioned by the hon. member for St. John's East. I believe he referred to marketing. There again I would hope that the board would look carefully into the matter of properly exploiting the markets of the world for the fishery products of the Atlantic provinces, in order to give that proper emphasis to pushing our trade so that a really vigorous policy could be pursued and our fishery products sold in great quantity in the world's markets. May I conclude my few remarks, Mr. Chairman, by hoping that the Atlantic economic development board will provide an instrument of break-through for the hopes and the needs of the people of the Atlantic provinces.


Arthur Laing: Mr. Chairman, I am quite certain that the minister and a great many other members will be somewhat surprised that I should rise to say a few words on this bill, but I do so for a number of reasons. First of all, I think that a bill which is designed to improve the economic situation of a part of


our great country deserves the support of all areas of the country. Second, no part of Canada has benefited more from the mari-times, or owes more to the maritimes, than my native province of British Columbia. It seems to me that a larger group of mari-timers went to our province than from any other part of Canada. Certain it is that our merchandising families, our manufacturing plants, and a great proportion of the economic background of British Columbia we owe to the maritimes.


Hugh John Flemming: What
about the politicians?


Arthur Laing: I was going to deal with them in just a moment. I will deal first with the merchants and the manufacturers who went to British Columbia. Here I am reminded of the story of the five families who first went to Hawaii, of whom it was said that they went there to do good, and instead they did well. I can assure the members in this house that that is the situation with respect to the maritimers who have gone to the province of British Columbia. They have done well. As the minister pointed out, some of them have gone into politics. As a matter of fact, a great number of them have gone into politics. Of the last nine premiers of our province, no less than four were born in the maritimes. Of the present incumbent, I might say that some of us in the province of British Columbia would like to negotiate a trade, and I rather think that we would trade him for a sack of good New Brunswick potatoes. I think it is somewhat noteworthy that the government seems to be apprised of this situation in that, they have made a great sacrifice lately in order to see that something like that is brought about. However, I want to say in addition that out of the four members of my party who were returned in the June 18 election, one of them, or one quarter, was a
maritimer.
So that we owe a tremendous debt of gratitude to the maritimes because of the flow of people from those provinces to ours. I would say to the minister that I rather think it is the loss of trained people from the historic universities and seats of learning in those great provinces to the United States, or to upper Canada, or to western Canada, that is one of the prime problems in the history of the maritimes. However, due to the development of our country, policies have had to be followed in the interests of most Canadians which have not been advantageous to the
maritimes,	and we realize that. If we go into the history of recent years and into the subsidies which have been granted, we find that the Maritime Freight Rates Act costs about $14 million per year. I think there are seven,

eight or nine million dollars worth of subsidies with regard to transportation on the waterways.
I say to the minister that we contributors from the western part of Canada and from British Columbia are quite content to assume our portion of that responsibility in respect of the bill he has brought forward at this time. I know he will not think me unkind if I say of the bill that it is nothing more than a skeleton or a letter of intent upon which he and his government have to build in the future. I hope that those of us from other parts of Canada who have made a contribution by way of taxation to the revival, the redevelopment and the rejuvenation of the maritimes might be pardoned if we are among those who in the future will be more intent upon seeing how far the minister has gone in building a muscle and a body to this skeleton which he has presented today to this house. But certainly out of the debt we owe to the maritimes we wish him and this piece of legislation well; and we propose to him that if necessary he goes on and builds it into something far greater than would appear to the people who read the bill today.
Clause 1 agreed to.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Five o'clock.


The Deputy Chairman:: Order. It being five o'clock, it is my duty to leave the chair in order for the house to proceed with the consideration of private members' business, pursuant to section 3 of standing order 15.
Progress reported.


Mr. Speaker:: It being five o'clock, the house will now proceed to the consideration of private members' business as listed on today's order paper, namely notices of motion as appear on page 28.


EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Mr. Thomas R. Berger (Vancouver-Bur-rard) moved:: That, in the opinion of this house, the government should give consideration to the advisability of establishing a Canadian youth service to enable qualified young Canadians to go abroad to provide scientific, technical, humanitarian and cultural assistance to peoples requiring such assistance and in particular:
(1)	To enroll volunteers in the said service qualified in scientific, professional and technical fields;
(2)	To provide for the training of volunteers in the said service;
(3)	To provide for the placement of volunteers in countries requesting such volunteers;
(4)	To provide for living allowances for volunteers while abroad and for payment of gratuities upon termination of their service.
External Affairs
He said: Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this resolution is to establish a Canadian youth service to enable young Canadians to go abroad to help people in the underdeveloped countries to help themselves. A Canadian youth service would give to young Canadians an opportunity to assist people in the underdeveloped countries to wipe out poverty, ignorance and disease. Teachers, doctors, nurses, engineers, agrologists-young Canadians with professional qualifications and technical qualifications, would be enabled to go abroad and participate in what I believe is the greatest task facing the people of the world in the second half of the twentieth century, the task of raising the standard of living of the have-not countries in those parts of the world that do not enjoy the standard of living that the western countries enjoy, countries whose people live on a bare subsistence or worse than that.
I believe that young Canadians are tired of the sterile invective of the cold war. I believe they want to undertake a job that may take years, even decades, but a job that I believe has to be done. I think most members of this house would agree that it has to be done because in my opinion the people of Canada recognize a responsibility that must be discharged, a responsibility for the welfare of people all over the world, a responsibility to do whatever lies in our power to bring the standard of living of people in the underdeveloped countries up to the standard of living that is enjoyed by the people of Canada and in the other countries of the western world. I should like to repeat what President Kennedy said on the occasion of his inaugural address because I think he expressed in much better language the aspiration I have tried to express. He said:
To those peoples in the huts and villages of half the globe struggling to break the bonds of mass misery, we pledge our best efforts to help them help themselves, for whatever period is required- not because the communists are doing it, not because we seek their votes, but because it is right.
If the free society cannot help the many who are poor, it can never save the few who are rich.
We have to face the fact that in probably two thirds of the countries of the world people go to bed hungry every night. The people of these countries live without adequate shelter. They do not have the same opportunities that we in this country and in the other countries of the western world have. They can expect to die at a much earlier age than people in Canada. We have to do something about this situation.
The governments we have had have undertaken foreign aid programs, but in my view the government of this country in every case

External Affairs
has undertaken only a stunted program of foreign aid. We have never had in Canada a government with the imagination or the will to undertake an adequate program of foreign aid, a program commensurate with the capabilities of the people of Canada-the capabilities that this country has in terms of resources and manpower. This is the record, and this sorry record culminated in the decision of the present government two months ago to curtail the Colombo plan program by $8,500,000.
The United States has recognized that qualified young people have a special opportunity and are in many ways perhaps best suited to help the people in underdeveloped countries to help themselves. President Kennedy introduced legislation to establish what has become known as the peace corps, but it is important for members of the house to understand that the United States is not the only country which has undertaken a program involving the sending of young people abroad to the underdeveloped countries. Such programs have been undertaken by the Netherlands, Norway, West Germany and Belgium. In fact, the Belgian program is almost half the size of the peace corps program of the United States.
It seems to me that there is a special role for Canada to play here because the peace corps program undertaken by the United States has been determined to some extent by the exigencies of the cold war and by the special relationship which the United States has with some countries of the world. For instance, more than one quarter of the peace corps volunteers sent abroad by the United States have gone to the Philippines. At the same time the United States has sent no volunteers at all to Indonesia. It seems to me that Canada has a special role to play here. After all, Canada is bicultural. Canada is equipped to send volunteers abroad who can speak English, volunteers who can speak French and volunteers who are bilingual, speaking both languages. Because Canada has not succumbed entirely to the cold war paranoia it seems to me that young Canadians going abroad would have a much greater opportunity to help the people in underdeveloped countries than the peace corps volunteers have perhaps had, because surely the people in these countries would realize that Canadians would have no ideological axe to grind and that they were there simply to help them and not to serve any ulterior purpose.
There is no question about the need in underdeveloped countries. A survey conducted by Mr. Lewis Perinbaum, who last year was executive secretary of the Canadian

universities service overseas, found that teachers were required in practically every underdeveloped country of Africa and Asia. In fact, half of the volunteers sent abroad by the peace corps have been teachers. Doctors,, nurses and engineers are needed everywhere. Agrologists are needed in most of the countries of Africa and Asia.
There is another important category of people required in these countries, that category of people described as middle level manpower. At a conference on middle level manpower held in Puerto Rico last month, at which the Canadian government was represented, 41 countries discussed the problem of middle level manpower. Their report shows that it is not only people with professional qualifications who are required in the underdeveloped countries but people with trade skills and people equipped to teach trade skills, the kind of people who can assist in the every day tasks that we take for granted in this country, people qualified in the vocational and technical fields who can teach the people of the underdeveloped countries in these fields.
I believe that we would have to train young Canadians who were sent overseas to the underdeveloped countries in the language and the customs of the countries where they were going to work, if that were necessary. In most cases it would not really be necessary to teach them the language because Canadians are peculiarly equipped by reason of the bicultural and bilingual character of this country to go to practically every nation which requires assistance. English and French are the languages of most of the underdeveloped countries of Africa and Asia.
Young Canadians going abroad under these circumstances ought to work under local conditions. They ought to work side by side with local people and they ought to be paid by the government of this country wages or salaries equivalent to those being earned by the people with whom they are working. It seems to me that the term of their service ought to be, on the average, two years. This is the average term of service of the peace corps volunteers.
This would give to Canadians an opportunity to go abroad to assist in a high endeavour. They would return to Canada having acquired a much broader background with which to enter business, the professions or any other field of endeavour that they chose in Canada. We ought to provide that gratuities be paid to young Canadians who go abroad under these circumstances, which they would receive upon completion of their service.
I realize, Mr. Speaker, that the government is sending experts abroad to some of the

underdeveloped countries. I complain that the expenditure of this government on its foreign aid program is inadequate, but I realize they are sending some experts abroad. I do not propose that young Canadians going abroad as members of a Canadian youth service would attempt to duplicate the functions of these experts. Young Canadians going abroad as members of Canadian youth services would not be experts qualified to supervise the construction of a dam in Pakistan. They would be young Canadians going abroad to teach the people of the underdeveloped countries the way to perform everyday tasks that we take for granted here. For example, such things as how properly to till the fields of Africa and Asia; how to run small outpost hospitals; how to speak the English language or the French language properly; how to become acquainted with the many skills that are required in any country if the standard of living is to be raised.
I think it would be remiss to discuss a proposal such as this, to establish a Canadian youth service, without mentioning the work that has been done in this field by the Canadian universities service overseas. The universities of this country and people connected with the universities, have undertaken various programs in the last few years to send young Canadians overseas. These programs were unified with the establishment of an organization called Canadian universities service overseas about a year ago. CUSO, as it has become known, has sent volunteers overseas for the last two years. Last year they sent 16 volunteers abroad, and this year they sent 70. The fact that young Canadians are interested in this work can be established, I think, by pointing out that despite the fact CUSO had sufficient funds to send only 70 volunteers abroad, they had applications from more than 200.
If the government established a Canadian youth service, there would be no necessity to do away with CUSO or any of the other programs that have been undertaken by universities and people connected with them. I believe that a Canadian youth service could work side by side with CUSO and other programs that have been undertaken. I would go farther than that and I would suggest that the government of this country ought to supply financial assistance to CUSO and other programs that have been undertaken by the universities. In the United Kingdom, the universities have undertaken programs which entailed sending young people abroad from that country, and the government of the United Kingdom has given financial assistance for that purpose.
External Affairs
Now, Mr. Speaker, I have already suggested that a Canadian youth service would provide a great opportunity for young Canadians, an opportunity that most young Canadians do not have today. It would give them an opportunity to see other countries, to learn the customs of other countries, to acquire a knowledge of the world that I think most of us lack today. They would have the opportunity of discovering, first hand, the job that has to be done and to assist in doing that job.
It seems to me that Canada ought not to undertake a program such as this to enhance her prestige or in the pursuit of national vainglory, but rather because this is the sensible, logical thing to do in order to discharge an obligation that I suggest we in Canada have to the underdeveloped countries of the world. In talking about the job that the western countries face in assisting the people of the underdeveloped countries, Adlai Stevenson had this to say:
But it must also be done because of a much profounder reason; for it is wrong to leave children to starve who could eat with our help, wrong to let youngsters die when medical skill can save them, wrong to leave men and women without shelter, wrong to accept for others, in the midst of our own abundance, the iron pains of degrading want.
We in this country have come to recognize that we have a responsibility in respect of the people who are within the borders of this country. We recognize an obligation to make sure that our fellow Canadians do not starve, that they have adequate shelter. Surely, we ought to recognize the fact that that responsibility extends beyond our national boundaries. Surely, we ought to recognize the fact that this is a world wide responsibility, that the brotherhood of man does not end at Newfoundland or at the west coast of British Columbia. I suggest that the best way Canadians can discharge this responsibility for raising the living standards of people all over the world is to give young Canadians an opportunity to help these people. I believe this resolution would do just that. It would enable young Canadians to participate in the great task of eliminating poverty, ignorance and disease all over the world. I urge all hon. members, Mr. Speaker, to give their support to this resolution.


Mr. Arthur Smith (Calgary South):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to make one or two observations concerning not only the purpose of the measure before us but also the objective set out in the resolution by the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard (Mr. Berger). At the outset, let me say to him that I am not in disagreement with his purpose, which is indeed worth while. It is an objective that I believe most of us, if not all of us, would support. I propose to ask, in the few minutes

External Affairs
that I intend to take, whether or not the hon. member could accomplish his purpose by this measure or whether we have already the facilities which might, in some way, provide exactly the same opportunity for young people to take part in the attempt to close the gap between the have and have-not nations of the world.
This resolution is designed basically on the very successful peace corps introduced by President Kennedy. It has been acknowledged, and I think it is generally appreciated, that while the peace corps has enjoyed some measure of success it has had certain shortcomings. Some of these are that when the scheme was first introduced these young people who went out to underdeveloped countries found they had to meet extreme hardship and in some instances were not mature enough to meet the problems which confronted them. Second, it was found some of them did not possess the qualifications or the training that was necessary in order to be of any real assistance, but when they returned to the United States they supplemented their rather academic studies by having a better understanding of the areas or countries they were visiting. The third point was that some of them psychologically were not suited for the work. It was found they were not mature enough and they did not have an understanding of some of the political and psychological problems existing in the areas to which they were sent.
However we can agree basically that the plan was successful, with perhaps a few shortcomings almost all of which have been corrected. My hon. friend suggests that we follow the same course, and before going into the details of his argument let me say I certainly wholeheartedly agree that the need for trying to close this gap between the have and have-not countries is most necessary. I hold the contention that all countries of the world should try to shift the emphasis of their aid programs from one of providing purely food, products or cash to one of improving the technical assistance they can provide so that we can help these people, who are less fortunate than ourselves, to help themselves.
I have some specific examples in mind. Just about a year ago I had the opportunity of visiting Europe, Africa and the Middle East, and in a desert in the Middle East I saw a doctor trying to treat some 550 youngsters in a clinic. The thought occurred to me that it would be a great help if one medical practitioner from Canada, perhaps as part of his post-graduate duties, were to go there and reduce the work of that Arab doctor by half. There would be great prestige for our country, in addition to the humanitarian advantages.
[Mr. Smith (Calgary South) .1
I saw much the same situation in the Congo after the Belgians had left. Many of the people there had no understanding of how to work the everyday utilities and it would have been of the greatest help had the United Nations accepted Canada's suggestion to establish a world bank of civil servants who would go into undeveloped countries after they had attained their independence to help them carry on until such time as they could employ their own technicians.
I saw much the same thing in China; but the point I wish to make is that these people require fairly highly trained technical assistance and I question whether it would be enough to send them relatively untrained youngsters, in other words, to send a boy to do a man's job.
The hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard did not indicate the age requirement, the level of experience or the type of training which members of a youth service would be required to have. I have dealt for some years with members of youth organizations and have a great appreciation of the intelligence and ability of young people to acquire information quickly, but I would like to make the point very clear that before we embark on any program to provide technical skills for undeveloped countries we must make sure we do not send untrained young people into areas demanding qualified personnel for it would only discourage any future value of more highly trained people going into these same areas.
I think there is an area of compromise between what the hon. member has suggested and what I am about to propose, and that is that there is nothing wrong in having a group of young people out of universities taking part in Canada's present external aid program. We have already appointed a director and his first responsibility, as I recall it, is to make a survey of the talents within Canada that are surplus to our own domestic requirements, and to employ them in exactly the same manner and for the same purposes as the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard now suggests. I think one of the first duties of the external affairs committee should be to make an assessment of how far this survey has been completed, because we can provide a great many of the skills required. We have a surplus of geophysicists and geologists who should be made available, under a government sponsored program, to assist many areas of the world in finding out the extent of their own natural resources.
We could ask Canadian educational institutions to provide us with trained teachers, people mature enough to go out and assist in educational programs in many of the large refugee camps and in other areas which

require improvement of their educational programs. We could also use other people from the technical trades, and here I would specifically suggest we call on the Canadian trade labour congress to assist us in developing a nucleus of these people to assist the technical trade arm of a Canadian sponsored program.
The one criticism, if it can be described as such, which can be made of the motion before us is that the program it envisages really is not ambitious enough and that it will not help the people who need help, in that it will not help them to develop their own resources. It will not help them improve their educational standards. I think it was described in terms that it would help them in everyday activities through the understanding of another language. That is of course important, but the people in these countries need help urgently in a great many other fields.
Therefore I say to the hon. member that while I would support the principle of his motion it seems to me it would be more efficient to make a further division in the external aid program of the government so that the universities, the trade labour congress and the Canadian medical profession could be called into conference to work out a program which would place greater emphasis on technical skills and making those skills available to less developed countries. Not for a moment am I taking away anything from the attributes of the young people of this country. I am merely suggesting that the magnitude of the problem must be realized by them and that they be trained to meet it.
It has been said many times that Canada has not fulfilled its responsibility in terms of foreign trade. In fact one hears various figures respecting our gross national product, or in terms of cash that it is said should represent the total amounts that we should contribute in this field to alleviate human misery. We all agree on the necessity for maintaining an active external aid program and I suggest that in the very near future we should increase the amount of moneys that are available for this purpose; but I hope it will not be done purely in cash or goods because often cash and goods are suspect. I am not speaking of Canada's contributions but of the contributions of one or two other countries.
Sometimes when these moneys and products are sent to undeveloped areas we are inclined to be a little suspicious that they do not always reach the people for whom they are destined. On the other hand it is my belief that if we provide technicians and tradesmen they will help close the gap much 27507-3-159
External Affairs
faster between the haves and the have-nots. They will help these people help themselves; and in the long run, while it is recognized that food and cash must still form part of our program, skilled tradesmen can help these people much more efficiently.
To my hon. friend who has moved this motion I say his purpose is sound but I wish he had been more ambitious. I wish he had tried to deal with the problem as it exists, and with the magnitude of it as it exists. I would suggest to him the machinery is already set up in Canada's external aid program under its director, Mr. Moran. He is a man with considerable experience who could really undertake the purpose of this motion, expand on it, and thus shift the emphasis in Canada's external aid program towards providing more technicians.
Those are the only remarks I wish to make, Mr. Speaker, with one exception. I do not think any of us need for a moment be ashamed of the contributions which this country makes in terms of mutual or external aid. I think it is recognized that we spend some $70 million a year basically in our bilateral program and through the Colombo plan. I suggest to hon. members of this house that this is not the true measurement of our external aid. We should look at the many contributions we make to the various funds and organizations within the United Nations. We should also look at the recent amendment to the export credit act extending from $200 million to $400 million the funds which are now available. I suggest also that we should look at the contribution we made recently through the world food bank. I suggest we should look at the Canadian resolutions, to which I have already referred, in an attempt to provide help to those countries which have only just recently obtained their independence. I refer to the help we have given in establishing a bank of civil servants and technicians. I suggest we should look at the contributions in a great many other fields, because the sum total of these represents more than 1 per cent of Canada's gross national product.
I believe that if one refers to any number of House of Commons papers this will be seen. The paper I have in front of me, reference No. 93 shows, if one looks at the appendix on the last page, that of the six agencies of the United Nations to which there are contributions and pledges for the voluntary special programs carried out by them, Canada is third, behind the United States and Great Britain. Having made this point, Mr. Speaker, I should like to see this program still further increased. I have also indicated that I should like to see whether there has

External Affairs
been a shift in emphasis and I hope that when the external affairs committee sits we can see whether this shift in emphasis has already taken place.


Donald Stovel Macdonald: Mr. Speaker, I would like to present my views on this motion, express my support for the principle enunciated by the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard (Mr. Berger) and congratulate him upon bringing forward this motion at this time. The more particular aspect of this question to which I would like to make reference is the work of the private Canadian agencies which are now engaged in this field and to which the hon. member made some reference in introducing his motion.
The present service, as the hon. member has pointed out, is provided by the Canadian universities service overseas, known as CUSO, which is itself an amalgamation and continuation of two previously existing organizations, the Canadian overseas volunteers and the Canadian voluntary commonwealth service. Before proceeding to the discussion of the work of these two agencies and their relation to this particular motion I would like to pay tribute to the efforts of the member for York Centre in the last parliament both for his advocacy for this in this house and his very extensive efforts outside this house in advancing this very worth-while cause.
Reference has already been made to the United States peace corps. In fact, in our north American idiom the term "peace corps" has come to describe all efforts of this kind whereby young people can go and render volunteer service and make available their talents to less developed nations. It should be pointed out, however, that in addition to the nations referred to by the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard, the initial credit for the idea can be given to a private group in Australia which in 1952 first developed this notion of having young Australians working abroad in areas where their talents were needed. What is more, Mr. Speaker, Canadians can take some credit from the fact that, as I mentioned, due to the efforts of the former member for York Centre the Canadian overseas volunteers preceded by at least three months the foundation of President Kennedy's peace corps. These Canadian voluntary organizations now have 80 Canadian students either overseas performing functions of this kind or about to go overseas. Of this number 52 are now overseas under the auspices of CUSO, 15 under the auspices of the Canadian overseas volunteers, and five under the auspices of the Canadian voluntary commonwealth service. There are eight more to go. It is noteworthy that the

20 sent overseas by the two originating organizations have had their efforts and expenses financed by private fund raising services within this country. What is more, of the CUSO students two have been financed by private funds. The remainder have been financed by the governments of the foreign countries to which they have been sent. The cost that arises in these particular programs is that of transporting the Canadian student who has been transferred from this country to the foreign site. To give an illustration, a return ticket to Africa costs $1,300. In addition the student must be submitted to a considerable program of orientation on the language of the country to which he is going, on the customs and the nature of the duties he will have to perform there. This in turn raises the administrative overhead, so that the Canadian overseas volunteers have calculated that approximately $2,000 per student is necessary in order to get him on site.
This brings us to a problem which has arisen with these Canadian organizations. The foreign countries to which students have been sent, due largely to currency difficulties, have had difficulty in finding the exchange necessary to pay the transportation to the site. This was distressingly illustrated by the experience of CUSO in this past academic year. In May, 1.962 at the close of the academic year CUSO had no less than 200 volunteers prepared to go to sites overseas and acceptable to the organization. However, due to the difficulty in finding the means for transporting them considerable delay elapsed before they could be sent abroad and by September, due to this delay and the further uncertainties of their situation, nearly 110 of these students had dropped out. In other words this was a serious and very distressing loss of talent which could have been made available abroad.
While I support the general principle of the resolution my specific recommendation would be that the federal government should give assistance to this program by way of grants to the existing organizations. Second, I think the federal government to the greatest degree within its power should through its own facilities publicize both the availability of these services and the nature of the work that is done. The qualification which I would have regarding creating an independent governmental authority to administer this program is that I feel the universities should continue to be autonomous within this field and should administer the program. The university faculties and students are in a better position to judge the applicants coming forward, and what is more, by having it in the hands of the universities you take away any suggestion of government interference and control which in this country might tend to

discourage private contribution to the fund, and the student in the foreign country may possibly have cast upon him the stigma of being a representative of the government.
I would suggest, further, that the program should be concentrated in a number of very practical specialties wherein the immediate use of and demand for these services is very great. These are the fields of engineering, agriculture, medicine, nursing and education. We in Canada have perhaps some difficulty in appreciating just how serious is the lack of these very basic facilities in other countries. Perhaps I can illustrate this by making reference to a letter written by John Andrews, a Canadian overseas volunteer. It was written from the site on which he was working in Ceylon. Mr. Andrews writes:
My job has been mainly concerned with the next step, that of planning and arranging the construction of all the bridges and drainage culverts required as well as advising the workers with regard to any problems that they encounter.
It might be pointed out that Mr. Andrews is by professional training an engineer. He continues:
It was on a planning and inspection visit to Deriyaya-about 40 miles inland, in quite hilly country-that I was able to best see the great importance of this work. At present, the sole connecting link with the main road for two villages of 700 people each and three small tea estates, is a very rough footpath about two and a half miles long. There are two native built bridges each about 30 feet across. The walking surface consists of three bamboo poles and there is a wire slung between two high trees on to which one must hold while crossing. Of course, the sway on these structures is very great and crossing is quite hazardous. In the rainy season the river often floods and washes the bridge away. At present all the produce from the estates, all goods for the villages and even people requiring hospital care must be transported on the shoulders of bearers along this rather hazardous route.
They will build-and have already built -two reinforced concrete bridges and all the necessary drainage culverts. The project, when completed, will reduce the costs of the estate products and also of articles required by the villagers. It will open up the area and allow an easier flow of ideas and methods to a formerly isolated region, with all the benefits which this will bring to them.
I suggest there are three reasons in particular why it is to the advantage of all of us in Canada to enhance programs of this kind. First, as those who are articulate in their approach to international affairs have pointed out in recent years, Canadians are welcome in underdeveloped nations because the stigma of imperialism attaches to them less than it does to citizens of some other nations. In addition, they are not identified so readily with one side or another in the cold war. Canadians are therefore in a better position to mingle with the population and are less likely 27507-3-1594
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to be regarded as government agents. The second reason is this: by encouraging young Canadians to mix with the foreign population we can strike a strong blow toward removing the stigma which attaches to the white man, a remaining legacy of the colonial period and one which is most difficult to remove. Third, by building up a category of young Canadians who have spent time in countries abroad on such projects as these we shall have, eventually, a group of people better capable of understanding the way of life in countries other than our own.
For all these reasons I suggest that Canadian organizations should be supported not only by government but by private sources. Therefore, while accepting the principle of the motion by the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard I would suggest that federal government assistance should be given to these existing organizations rather than that a separate peace corps should be established.
(Translation):


Marcel Lessard: Mr. Speaker, I will take only a few minutes of the time of the house to endorse, on behalf of the group I represent, the motion introduced by the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard (Mr. Berger).
In my opinion, the principle of the motion is excellent and completes other projects which are presently being carried out.
Thus, I know that the government itself is providing assistance to underdeveloped countries under the Colombo plan. However, I feel that this assistance, which costs us several tens of millions of dollars every year, is far from giving the results we have a right to expect.
To give only one example, recently, I had the opportunity of meeting a person who lived in those countries. Having stayed with various tribes and in various villages, that person was in a position to see the results of the assistance provided by different countries under the Colombo plan.
And he stated that money donated by the various countries to contribute to the development of those underdeveloped countries did not do much good because, in many instances, that money had been handed to those countries' administrators who used it only to increase their hold and their domination on their own people. In fact, they used it, in many instances, to build themselves palaces and to live in unheard of luxury.
On the other hand, he told me that the alms given to the missionaries of various faiths who are still in those countries, in

External Affairs
Africa as well as in South America, really bring help to those peoples.
He told me that with a dollar those missionaries could get three or even four times more than could be expected from a dollar donated through the Colombo plan.
So, it is easily understood that if we could, as Canadians, step up our assistance to church organizations of various denominations existing in those countries, our contributions out of public funds to assist the people of those underdeveloped countries would yield much better results.
In the suggestion put forward by the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard, I note this. He is asking the government to set up an organization to provide for the training in various trades or occupations of young people who could be needed in those countries to set up industries and schools, to assist in hospitals and at all levels of administration or social organization.
I think that our youth, in many cases, would have that vocation that would make them more or less missionaries. Because after all, it is a missionary calling, even if it is not in actual fact a religious vocation, and there are many young people whose dream has been to go to underdeveloped countries to dedicate themselves to the service of humanity, to the service of the needy who, in those countries, have been waiting for our help all those years.
I think that Canada, by stepping up its contribution through the training of young people who would, for a certain number of years, offer their services for the economic and social development of those countries, would be doing a truly humane action, an action for peace. It could even become known as a peacemaker.
We already enjoy such a reputation, but we could strengthen it, it seems to me, by sending to those countries ambassadors who would show them that our economic philosophy, far from being like that of our opponents, is based on religious and humanitarian principles that we wish to spread among all the countries of the world.
Ever since many of its countries have freed themselves from colonialism, Africa has been on the horns of a dilemma. Those countries want to improve their situation, but they lack that middle class which is the backbone of our civilized nations. They only have a poor working class, totally ignorant, plus a few 
intellectuals, trained in European countries which have helped them to study at their universities, and who come back to their own people to put in practice what they have learned and what they believe to be for the good of the nation.
But we know that, unfortunately, to be without a middle class like the one we have in our countries does create economic problems. They lack the people with the skills required to stabilize their country's economy; they lack the men capable of taking over their economy to establish industrial plants and social organizations.
That is why I say that if Canada were to take advantage of the ideas advocated by the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard, it would be taking a significant step towards helping underdeveloped countries.
In my opinion, Canada, which has never been a colonial power, must go and repair on the spot the damage caused or left behind by colonial powers after they had gone.
We may not have any official commitment toward those countries, but we have at least some moral obligation and we should accept our responsibilities.
That is why, Mr. Speaker, I feel that no member of this house would object to the government spending a greater amount of our money so that our young people may go in underdeveloped countries to help them carry out their economic recovery.
Therefore, we readily endorse the motion introduced by the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard.
(Text) :


Harold Edward Winch: Mr. Speaker, I would welcome the opportunity of speaking on this motion for one hour, but I will of course not do so because under no circumstances will I talk this motion out. Therefore I will speak for only five minutes. I should like to say that four of us in this House of Commons had the opportunity and the privilege of spending some five weeks in a west African country. I wish, sir, that every member of this house could have had the same opportunity. Because if they had seen what we saw in travelling round a country the same size as British Columbia populated by 42 million people, they would without hesitation unanimously adopt the resolution now before us which has been moved by the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard (Mr. Berger). Mr. Speaker, all of these newly developing countries need massive assistance. They need the assistance of engineers, technicians, doctors and scientists. They also need what we in Canada can supply, and that is volunteers among our young people who are not medical men, or scientists, or technicians.

I say, Mr. Speaker, that support of this resolution and following it through would mean a great deal.
Mr. Speaker, may I tell you of the city of Jos in northern Nigeria. In that city alone there are 70,000 people, and outside there are 200,000 in their tribal villages. There is one hospital in Jos. There is one doctor in that hospital. He looks after all the bed patients and does all the surgery. He also attends to between 600 and 800 out-patients a day from 8 o'clock in the morning until one o'clock in the afternoon. He cannot look after them all but if he had a couple of orderlies or a couple of our nurses in that hospital in Jos, would it not make a great deal of difference to the health of those people?
Let us take another city in eastern Nigeria which has perhaps one of the finest hospitals of all, and which is run by a Catholic mission. Years ago the major cause of death amongst children was lockjaw. Now they have very few deaths from lockjaw. And why? Because although two Catholic medical doctors cannot look after 500 out-patients, they can give anti-tetanus shots, and very few youngsters die now. If you go into western Nigeria, into Oyo, Ibadan and Ife, these shots are not given and lockjaw is one of the great causes of death. Some of our young Canadians who have been trained as orderlies, nurses or technicians could provide such a service, under medical supervision.
In that country of 42 million people there are 83 doctors. Midwifery is hardly known. Most times when children are born the umbilical cord is cut too long. So how is it closed? I wish the hon. member for Jasper-Edson (Mr. Horner) were here to back up what I say. It is closed with a dab of goat, camel or cow dung. And what happens? Infection. One child out of two dies. What could some of our young people do? With two or three years of the training we give in Canada they could help people under these circumstances.
Mr. Speaker, I have just given you a couple of dramatic illustrations showing why I should like to talk on this topic for an hour, and why I am so wholeheartedly in support of this motion; but I will call it quits now so that we can have a vote and it is not talked out.


Mr. J. R. Sams (Wentworth):: Mr. Speaker, I do not propose to take up too much time on this particular motion, but I should like to give one or two opinions of my own. I think there are a great number of undergraduates in our Canadian universities who could and would be readily available to fulfil the obligations set out in the motion proposed
Atlantic Development Board by the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard (Mr. Berger). Modern communications and transportation today are such that to ignore the rising masses in India and Asia-


Mr. Deschatelets:: Mr. Speaker, would the hon. member permit a question?


Joseph Reed Sams: Yes.


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Is the hon. member aware that if he speaks until six o'clock he will prevent a vote on this resolution?


Joseph Reed Sams: I thank the hon. member for calling my attention to that, but I would remind him that he is taking up some of the time in which I should like to add to this debate. Trade missions, diplomatic missions and the like, all have their place in this question of the problems of other nations. The adoption of a program such as that outlined by the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard, coupled with a sincere and dedicated desire for a proper approach to the problems of mankind, will ensure our success in their understanding and of the peace of the world.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hour appointed for the consideration of private members' business having expired. We will now revert to the business which was interrupted at five o'clock.
(Translation):




Rémi Paul: The house again in committee on the motion of Mr. Flemming (Victoria-Carleton) for the second reading of Bill No. C-94, to provide for the establishment of an Atlantic development board.
On clause 2-Definitions.
At six o'clock the house took recess.
(Text):


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The committee resumed at 8 p.m.
On clause 2-Definitions.
John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, there is just one question I should like to ask the minister about clause 2. Clause 2 (c) reads as follows:
"Minister" means such member of the Queen's privy council for Canada as may from time to time be designated by the governor in council to act as the minister for the purposes of this act.
I do not take any exception to that wording. I can understand why the government

Atlantic Development Board might want to be free from time to time to change the minister designate. But I would hope that the government has already made a decision as to who the first minister designate is and, if so, I would hope the minister could tell us. I expressed the hope on second reading that it would be the minister from New Brunswick, and notwithstanding the fact that this might seem to bring me into contradiction with my hon. friend from Westmorland I reiterate that hope.
I do not think we want the Minister of Finance to be the minister designate here because we want a minister who is going to be rapping on the door of the Minister of Finance all the time. We do not want a built-in veto. I do hope that a decision has been made on this matter and that the minister can tell us what that decision is.


Hugh John Flemming: Mr. Chairman, I should like to be in a position to answer the question categorically, and I must say, with all due modesty, that I should like to answer it in accordance with the suggestion that the hon. member has made. I find it impossible to do that at the moment but I will convey his opinion in that regard to the cabinet, which I know will have a great deal of influence.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I hope that my expressing a favourable opinion about the minister will not queer his chances.


Hugh John Flemming: 1 was
sincere in what I said.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I am sure the minister was, but I do not think all his colleagues entertain the same feelings about me that the minister does, and perhaps there might be a certain reciprocity there as well. Although I am not going to go on with this point at all or press it in any way, I do have to point out, notwithstanding my regard for the minister, that this is just further evidence of the fact that this government can never seem to decide anything.


[Stage Direction]
Clause agreed to.
On clause 3-Board established.
Mr. Maclnnis:: Mr. Chairman, first of all I want to say that we took the minister's words seriously the other evening when he asked for co-operation with respect to this bill in an attempt to move it forward as quickly as possible. Therefore we presented our general views on it and now we are moving into specific amendments. With regard to clause 3 we wish to acknowledge and congratulate the minister for his broadmindedness in making known to the house the fact that one of the provisions of this bill was ridiculous. I am not going to waste any time


on this point because the hon. member for Antigonish-Guysborough has already dealt very fully with it.
The matter that we wish to draw to the attention of the minister and the committee at the moment is the fact that if one provision of the bill can be ridiculous then perhaps the minister will agree it is possible other clauses of the bill are equally ridiculous, and I say that without wishing to be facetious. We are concerned about clause 3. I do not think it is necessary for me to review for the benefit of anybody in this house the fact that it is utterly fantastic to expect that five individuals are going to be able to do this job properly. The minister has already said that the members of the board are not going to be some kind of superior or perfect human beings but are going to be ordinary men and women. Therefore it is going to be impossible for five people, certainly if they are going to operate on a part time basis, to do the job the minister is trying to tell us this board is going to be expected to do.
Is there any need for me to review the problems that every university in this country faces, with boards of directors ranging from 25 to 50 people, many of whom donate a considerable amount of their free time solely to giving attention to the problems of financing universities in this country? Is the minister going to stand here and tell us that five people on a part time basis are going to be able to do the job that a whole region of Canada is demanding? We suggest that this is simply impossible and that this is another of the ridiculous provisions of the bill. We will have something to say in a further amendment about full time employees for the board but for the moment we are considering the matter of five members, all of whom will be operating on a part time basis.
Second, we suggest that if the four provincial governments involved and the different important segments of the community, labour, business, management, agriculture, rural life in general, co-operatives, credit unions consumer groups and universities are going to be represented, it is again hopeless to attempt to set up a board consisting of five people who will be able to do the job. Without wasting any more time I should like to move:
That clause 3 be amended by deleting the word "five" in the third line thereof and substituting the word "fifteen" therefor, so that the clause as amended will read:
3. A corporation is hereby established to be known as the Atlantic development board, consisting of fifteen members to be appointed by the governor in council as provided in section 4.


Hugh John Flemming: Mr. Chairman, I should like to make a slight correction in the remarks of the hon. member for Cape Breton South with reference to his

use of the word "ridiculous". The statement I made two days ago was that the salary was ridiculous. I was not referring to the clause particularly, and I am still of the same view. I am sure that all hon. members, particularly those within my immediate range of vision, know that sometimes these things happen but because they happen is no particular reason for not correcting them. Therefore, as 1 said the other day, when we come to clause 5 I expect to present an amendment.
Now, Mr. Chairman, with reference to the remarks of the hon. gentleman from Cape Breton South, I am one of those who believe that it is always possible to obtain a good deal of benefit from the opinions of many people. I submit to this committee, however, there is no particular reason why we should consider that a board of five people would be any less effective than a board of 15 people. As a matter of fact, it is my opinion that a small board, set up to be representative of all the provinces, would have a better chance to do effective work, to do it more expeditiously than a large board. This does not take anything away from the merits of the remarks made by the hon. member in connection with representation on this board of various organizations and groups which he mentioned. I accept that. It is very wise to have these organizations represented.
Many people have risen to their feet during this debate and have advanced their ideas as to what they believe is good. They have mentioned the things which they believe the board should have in order to be successful. I acknowledge their desire that this board shall be successful. I believe, too, that if you have a representative from each province and a chairman, that will be a good board with which to start. As I said the other day, I think we have to consider that this board is, to a certain degree, experimental in nature. We have never before had a board of this type in the Atlantic provinces. We have never had a board charged with a specific responsibility. It is important to remember that this board will be dedicated to securing the accomplishment of something of a very constructive nature. I think this is of tremendous importance.
I submit again that the board has possibilities and it is a forward step. It has been recommended by the commission on Canada's economic prospects.


Mr. Gordon:: Will the minister permit a question?


Hugh John Flemming: Yes.


Walter Lockhart Gordon: I was not quite sure about his reference to the commission on Canada's prospects. If the minister refers to the royal
Atlantic Development Board commission of which I had the honour to be chairman, I cannot remember recommending an advisory body of this kind. I wonder if the minister would be kind enough to clarify the matter.


Hugh John Flemming: I shall be glad to clarify it to the extent I can. I did have reference to the commission headed by the distinguished member for Davenport. I acknowledge that he may have given this body another name, but I submit that, to all intents and purposes, it is a board of this nature that he had in mind.


Walter Lockhart Gordon: May I ask the minister another question? The council recommended by the royal commission on Canada's economic prospects for the development of the Atlantic region, if I recall correctly, was called-[DOT] well, the main feature of it was that it would provide capital for that region. My question is, does the minister believe this particular advisory body can do the same job as was recommended by the royal commission, which was to introduce badly needed capital into the Atlantic area?


Hugh John Flemming: I shall be glad to answer that. In my opinion, the hon. member for Davenport is just splitting hairs. He recommended a board. When I say "he" I mean the commission. Then, he recommended that the board should have finances at its disposal, and that is the part of the recommendation with which I do not agree.
I do not know whether or not my hon. friend from Davenport was here the other day, but for his benefit I will repeat what I said on that occasion. He may choose to differ with me, but I am going to repeat it anyway. I expressed the opinion that no government should delegate to a board the responsibility which they, themselves, owe to the Canadian taxpayer. In my opinion it would be a wrong thing to give any board millions of dollars of the taxpayers' money and say, "Now, just go ahead and spend this in whatever way you believe is proper." I do not agree with that, not for a moment.
I do agree with the principle of examination. I agree with the principle of investigation. I agree with the principle of economic research into these various projects. Then, after that has been accomplished this board would make recommendations to the government in Ottawa for final decision. This is where my hon. friend and I do not agree, but that is quite all right. People have been known to disagree before. In the main, I suggest-


Walter Lockhart Gordon: May I ask the minister another question?


An hon. Member:: Let him finish.
2512	HOUSE OF
Atlantic Development Board


Hugh John Flemming: At least let me finish a sentence. I submit that in his report the hon. member recommended a board and this is the first indication we have of the carrying out of that recommendation. I am one of those who feel that the size of the board is no criterion of the effectiveness of it. As I remember, the commission on Canada's economic prospects comprised seven members. They journeyed from one end of Canada to the other. They examined witnesses and I had the pleasure of appearing before them. I was treated with the greatest of courtesy, just as I would expect from a commission presided over by the hon. gentleman from Davenport. In this particular case, I believe a board of five will be a good size with which to start. While I do not like to disagree on such a small matter with the hon. gentleman from Cape Breton South, I submit that if he is really interested in the success of this Atlantic development board, he is doing it a disservice when he moves an amendment to enlarge the board to 15. I find that I cannot accept the amendment.


Walter Lockhart Gordon: I wonder if I might ask the minister a question now, Mr. Chairman, on the point that he was raising that there was not much difference between this particular advisory board and the board recommended by the royal commission on Canada's economic prospects. Perhaps I might read in two sentences from page 411 of the report of the commission.


Thomas Miller Bell: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Davenport will find that around here it is pretty poor etiquette to quote himself.


Walter Lockhart Gordon: Mr. Chairman, I am not so interested in the etiquette as in getting down to the fundamentals of what is being proposed. I would like to draw this to the attention of the committee, in view of the minister's remarks, and to ask him a question after reading this particular paragraph. It reads as follows:
The proposed commission or other agency, and the staff which it would require, should first prepare an oyer-all co-ordinated plan, including a list of priorities in connection with the proposed expenditures. Once this was approved by the federal government, the commission or agency referred to should be responsible for the implementation of the proposals, including supervision of the expenditures involved.
I would like to ask the minister if he thinks that is the same as what is contemplated for this proposed advisory committee?


Hugh John Flemming: Mr. Chairman, so far as the contemplation is concerned I presume the hon. member can speak


with more authority and knowledge than I can. I am just trying to work out for my own satisfaction in a common sense fashion just what that commission did mean in that particular paragraph. I am quite satisfied that the board, that is presently under discussion so far as this committee is concerned, meets a good many of the ideas which the commission, in my opinion, had in mind. If I am wrong and it does not, we will not quarrel about it.
I still submit that a board of five will be a good board, at least to start with, and I do not need to reiterate what I said about financing. I still submit that the government should not delegate the spending of millions and millions of dollars without the government taking final responsibility for the spending of the money. That is my opinion and I am still convinced it is the right one. I have nothing to add to it. Neither do I think that the committee will be influenced by what the hon. member for Davenport read from the report of that commission because it is my opinion that this board pretty well meets what the commission had in mind.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I wonder, Mr. Chairman, if I might raise a point in connection with this. The minister may say he does not want to accept the recommendation of the hon. member for Davenport in certain particulars, but what about the recommendation that was made by every Conservative candidate in the Atlantic provinces in May of 1957, in the charter on which the hon. gentleman's party got elected? I admit the hon. gentleman was not a candidate himself and I suspect that is why he was given the task of bringing in this bill, because the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Fisheries would not want to have to eat their own words.
Of course, there is no minister from Newfoundland, but every candidate who was elected in 1957 in the Atlantic provinces to support the Tory party was pledged to a capital projects commission, which was obviously based on the hon. member for Davenport's recommendation in his preliminary report, although not acknowledged. They all pledged themselves to that, including the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Fisheries, and I suggest we let the Minister of Fisheries get up and speak about it. He has not taken much part in this debate yet and he can tell us himself if he has now repudiated that election promise of his, and the distinguished and honourable member for Saint John-Albert might also get up and quote himself and his promise. We would be very glad for him to reiterate that promise and hear him say he had struggled vainly all

these past five years to get it carried out. It has not been carried out, and now we get this lame duck.


Thomas Miller Bell: What about your plan for one way tickets now?


John Whitney Pickersgill: The hon. gentleman should not talk about one way tickets. For five years the hon. gentleman has been supporting a government that has been issuing one way tickets for the people of the Atlantic provinces, for people who could not get work there. Now he is supporting a bill to issue more for them. The hon. member for Davenport said we should do a lot in the Atlantic provinces, everything we could, to provide work for the people there; but if everything did not work, then and only as a last resort should anybody be sent out of the area. That, however, is the only thing hon. gentlemen opposite have been doing. They started it in 1958. They sent them up to Elliot Lake just before some of the mines there closed down and they have been doing it steadily since. Now, five and a half years later, the minister introduces this bill-and I exonerate him; he did not sign the Moncton declaration; he was not there; he was in another place. But he supported every one of those candidates. He roamed up and down the Atlantic provinces telling people to follow John to paradise. And where did they follow him? They followed him into this collection of broken promises and this mere advisory board that is the substitute of the capital projects commission that they all promised in those promising days of May, 1957.


David Lewis: The purpose of the amendment before the committee is precisely to attempt to make the body which the bill proposes into a much more effective planning agency. I am sure the hon. member for Cape Breton South or any others of his colleagues in this party do not care really whether there are 15 members, or 13 or 12. We suggest 15 and we do so for two reasons.
First, we believe that the commission ought to be representative not only of the four governments of the Atlantic provinces but also of various organizations of the working people and the farm and co-operative people in those provinces, and you cannot possibly have that kind of representation in a board of five members.
Second, there should be a number of that board-we will suggest three in later consideration of another clause-who would be full-time members, instead of having a board all of whom would give their spare time to the work, because we are convinced the work cannot be done in that way. The purpose of a capital projects commission cannot be filled 27507-3-160
Atlantic Development Board and a plan for the Atlantic provinces cannot be prepared, and still less can actual projects be executed and supervised, if you have a board of five members all of whom merely give whatever spare time they can to this tremendously important part of Canada and this tremendously important part of our economy.
We suggest that, in spite of the obvious good will of the Minister of National Revenue and in spite of his obvious good intentions for the provinces on the Atlantic seaboard, the fact is that the board which he now proposes is no more than a body which will advise a little and from time to time meet to consider some things. Adequate planning cannot be done in that manner. As I say, we believe it ought to be a board representative of organizations as well as of governments, and large enough to have among it members giving their full time to the job for the Atlantic provinces.
I have no doubt that promises were made in May, 1957, in the Atlantic provinces as they were made elsewhere. Likewise I have no doubt they were made by representatives and spokesmen of all parties in the house. That is an old tradition of political spokesmen, an old tradition of elections in this country, to make promises. I do not think only one party in this house makes them or has made them in the past. I have heard members in other parties make promises and I have read their promises and their election literature.
I am not concerned about that at all, Mr. Chairman. What we are concerned about is that this important step toward recognizing the regional problems of the Atlantic provinces as an essential part of Canada's economy be made an effective step instead of a faltering and useless step. This is merely the first item that the hon. member for Cape Breton South has moved in a series of amendments which we hope this committee will approve, which will put some teeth into the legislation and give the board the powers and capacities for doing the tremendous job that needs to be done.
I would appeal to the minister that he take seriously under consideration the amendment moved by the hon. member for Cape Breton South. If the minister thinks that 15 members are too many and that 12 will do the job, I am sure the hon. member for Cape Breton South is not wedded to a particular number so long as the board will be large enough to be representative of the people as well as of the governments of the Atlantic provinces, and so long as it will be large enough to provide for two or three full time members, so that two or three competent men or women

Atlantic Development Board can give full time attention to the problems about which he and other hon. members of this house have spoken.
I have had the pleasure of visiting the Atlantic provinces on many occasions over the last 25 years or so. When visiting them, as a person living in central Canada and knowing something about the industry in central Canada, I could not help being impressed by the way in which a good many of the advances in our country have bypassed that part of Canada. One cannot visit those provinces and study their problems without being impressed by the necessity for some serious action by this parliament with regard to that section of Canada. I underline what others have said, that the action proposed could be of value if it were made effective. That is the purpose of the amendment before you, Mr. Chairman.


Hugh John Flemming: Mr. Chairman, I am naturally impressed-
(Translation):


Mr. Caoueiie:: Mr. Chairman-
(Text):


Some hon. Members:: Order.


John Whitney Pickersgill: The minister was speaking.


Gordon Campbell Chown: The Minister of National Revenue.


Hugh John Flemming: Mr. Chairman, I am naturally impressed by the eloquence of the hon. member for York South. I am not a bit impressed, however, with his argument that a 15-man board would be more effective than a 5-man board. I submit there is nothing a 15-man board could do that a 5-man board could not do as well, and perhaps more expeditiously, perhaps with a greater degree of effectiveness and a greater degree of dispatch. I do want to say a few words about the remarks of the loquacious member for Bonavista-Twillingate, because he advanced the idea that the Conservative party prior to the 1957 election had promised a capital projects commission.


John Whitney Pickersgill: That is right, at Moncton.


Hugh John Flemming: I submit, Mr. Chairman, that maybe he thinks it is right, but it is wrong.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I have the text of it here.


Hugh John Flemming: I have the resolutions before me. This is what the candidates in the Atlantic provinces promised.
5. A capital projects program.
This, I submit, is a capital projects program.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Hugh John Flemming: This is what it is. It is a capital projects program; there is no question about it. Anyone who uses the intelligence with which he is possessed will be able to see that. It is the carrying out of a capital projects program; there is no question about that whatsoever. I would now like to read on a little bit further. It is to provide federal capital assistance for provincial projects designed to enlarge the basic economy of the area. That is No. 5. In my opinion this board carries out that commitment to the letter. I can understand the hon. gentleman not being familiar with carrying out promises, because so many were broken in the government of which he formed a part. He is not very familiar with this sort of thing. Therefore I forgive him in that respect because he is not used to having them carried out.
Here is a 5-man board. I submit to the committee that this will be a proper sized board to conduct the business with expedition. There is another point, to which the hon. member for York South referred, that this bill in another clause provides for an executive director and for full-time people to be associated with it. In my opinion, Mr. Chairman, that is exactly what is required, a board which will meet regularly but will have as a basis an executive director and a staff which will be examining and inquiring into situations day after day. Then the board will meet and consider those situations in the light of the information which has been secured in the meantime.
Mr. Chairman, I have nothing more to add at this time. In my opinion this pretty well takes care of the objections. I would ask my hon. friend from York South if he would consider that a 5-man board might do a good job to start off with, and if it is found that it needs more people to make it more effective I am sure he will be the first to vote for an amendment to the bill, if it were brought in a few months or a year hence, or whenever it may be.
(Translation):


David Réal Caouette: Mr. Chairman, we have listened with great interest to the proposals made by the socialist party and the Liberal party to increase to fifteen the number of the members of the board, rather than leave it at five as suggested by this bill.
As we take it for granted that the Liberal, socialist or Conservative parties are in favour of abolishing unemployment in this country, I wonder, like my good friend from York South (Mr. Lewis) for instance, why we should not propose that this board be comprised of 1,500 members.

Why does not the hon. member tor Bona-vista-Twillingate (Mr. Pickersgill) propose that it comprise 1,500 members, all from his party, and why do not the Conservatives do the same thing?
The aim of that board is not to create jobs. I understand, of course, that if we appointed to that board people like the hon. members we have just heard, it might perhaps be wise to require 25 instead of 5, because it requires many not too intelligent people to replace a few intelligent ones.
In my opinion, for the efficient operation of this board, a total of five members is enough.
If five persons are enough to consider the problems of the Atlantic provinces and, closer to us, those of Ontario and Quebec-that is to say, problems of those provinces nearer to the Atlantic than to the Pacific-I suggest that we should appoint only five.
There is no need to drag on and kill time trying to find out whether it would be proper to increase the membership of that board. The bill proposes five intelligent members, and if they are, they will find the means of improving the present situation in the maritime provinces.
As I have just said, it is useless to talk about increasing the membership of this board. What is required is action.
Appointing commissioners, setting up a board made up of more or of fewer members does not solve anything. I suggest that five efficient, determined and well informed men can find the solution to the problem of the Atlantic provinces.
That is why we from the Social Credit party say that it is useless to increase the membership, as is advocated in the amendment. All the members need not be Conservatives; we might appoint a few Liberals because there are a few intelligent ones to be found here and there in Canada; there are not very many, but there are a few. We need not worry about the socialists; there is no need to look among them for they are not intelligent enough. The main thing is to appoint five efficient commissioners.
Let us find five intelligent persons to deal with the issues concerning the Atlantic provinces and we Social Crediters will wholeheartedly support the proposal.
(Text):


John Whitney Pickersgill: Perhaps, since the hon. member for Villeneuve did take my name in vain I might say a few words at this point. While I thank the hon. member for Villeneuve 27507-3-160*
Atlantic Development Board for expressing the views of the Liberal party, may I say that unfortunately he did not express them correctly. I must say, though, that I am in complete agreement with the views he has expressed on the amendment. I do not think enlarging this board to 15 would add anything to it except 10 other persons. If the board is to be of any use at all-and I become increasingly doubtful about how useful it is going to be-I think it is more likely to be useful if there are only five people on it than if there are 15 and for that reason I do not think I can support the amendment, particularly as I do not have very much confidence in the kind of people who would be apt to be selected by the present government, if one might judge by the appointments they have made since June 18. So, speaking for myself, and a good many of those surrounding me, I shall not be able to vote for this amendment.
I do want to say, however, that I hope the best possible effort will be made to select those persons who are appointed to the board in such a fashion that they will represent not only the four provinces but a reasonable cross section of the main industries in the area.


Mr. Baldwin:: I rose some time ago. I was about to raise a point of order on this amendment. I do not think it really matters, because the debate has been just as relevant to the original clause as to the amendment. I would point out, however, that there is some doubt as to the validity of this amendment which has been moved by a private member. I refer you, Mr. Chairman, to clauses 3, 5 and 10, which, taken together, say that this is to be a board composed of five persons. One member, the chairman, will be paid an honorarium the amount of which has been fixed. The remaining four will not receive remuneration but are entitled to reasonable living and travel expenses while absent from their ordinary places of residence. Later on in the bill it is provided that one meeting shall be held in Ottawa and the others at such places as the board itself may determine. It is therefore evident that unless every one of the members to be appointed resides in Ottawa, travelling and living expenses in respect of a board of 15 are going to be three times as much as those Involved in connection with a board of five. It Is clear that this would require the expenditure of money additional to that presently contemplated and I suggest, therefore, that you rule it out of order.


David Lewis: I am not going to follow the last speaker and deal with the point of order he raised, because you have not said anything about it, Mr. Chairman.
2516	HOUSE OF
Atlantic Development Board
I am not at all surprised that the hon. member for Villeneuve is opposed to any increase in the size of the board, despite the reasons we have given, because I have watched the hon. member both inside and outside this house and I am impressed by the fact that he has very little use for anything which is essentially democratic-for anything which genuinely represents the wishes of the Canadian people. The hon. member has not much use-


David Réal Caouette: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman-


Gordon Campbell Chown: First of all, let me point out to the hon. member for York South that his remarks, as far as they have gone, are not applicable to the amendment. I gather the hon. member for Villeneuve was rising on a point of order.
I might also advise the committee that the Chair was in some doubt about the admissibility of this amendment but did not intervene for the reason that clause 5(1) states that the members of the board shall serve without remuneration but are entitled to be paid reasonable travel and living expenses, which I interpret as a reimbursement, not as payment. I took it to mean that they would receive reimbursement for expenses they had incurred.
However, I would point out to hon. members one sentence which appears in May's sixteenth edition at page 706 under the heading "Disallowance of charging amendments moved in the house".
No amendment offered to a bill or to a resolution reported from committee is in order if it either imposes a charge not contained in the bill or resolution reported from committee or increases the charge above that contained in the bill or resolution so reported.
As I indicated previously, I have given the mover of this amendment the benefit of the doubt in this case. I would have given the matter deeper consideration, perhaps, if one of the members of the committee had brought the point earlier to my attention. As things stand, I think I allow the amendment.


Harold Edward Winch: Did I gather, Mr. Chairman, that you propose to allow the amendment? I should like to point out that we are dealing with clause 3 which concerns the composition of the board and not with payment. That is dealt with in a later clause. If Your Honour has allowed the amendment, may I be permitted to say a few words on it? I shall not comment on the statements made by either the hon. member for Villeneuve or the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate, other than to say it is obvious that they want membership of the board to be restricted to five.


Under no consideration can this give democratic representation to the provinces and to the economic interests of the Atlantic region. Take it one way or the other: if hon. members opposite do not want democratic representation, they stand for something that this party does not stand for. I am not concerned with the point whether there should be 15 or less, but I am concerned with there being a change in the present wording of clause 3, which says that the Atlantic development board shall be restricted to five members.
We in this group want to make it very clear that we support the principle of an Atlantic development board, but we support it on the basis that it shall be a development board representative of all governments concerned and also representative of those sections in each province which bear upon the economy. In clause 2 the provinces-New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island and Newfoundland-are named. There is provincial government representation on this board to the extent of four members out of the five. The chairman of the board makes up the fifth. But where is any representation of business, of farmers, of labour, of co-operatives and of credit unions? The present wording of the clause means that there is no representation of those who produce the wealth of the maritime provinces; there is representation only of the governments concerned, and there is an appointed chairman.
I was most interested in the remarks of the Minister of National Revenue. I tried to follow him most closely, but the more closely I followed him the less I understood him. Because, sir, it is impossible to consider clause 3, which outlines the board and its membership, unless you consider the responsibilities of that board. Those responsibilities are outlined in clause 9, and I submit you cannot consider clause 3 without considering clause 9 as well, because clause 9 deals with the objects and powers of the board. If you look at the objects and the powers contained in the clause, you will find that they are of such a nature that they would require not only a board larger than five members, but a full-time board larger than five members; and unless that is so this bill, which in principle I support, will mean nothing more than window dressing, and will be a white elephant introduced by the present government. May I also point out that in addition to considering clause 9 with clause 3 you must also consider clause 14. Because clause 14 gives powers to other than those representatives elected by the provincial governments. It is the technical, the scientific, the practical and the economic part of this bill. This clause says:

Atlantic Development Board
The board may engage on a temporary basis or for any period of not more than two years the services of persons having technical or specialized knowledge of any matters relating to the work of the board...
I suggest that if this bill is to have the sort of consideration I hope it will have, we must put together not only clause 3 and clause 9, but also clause 14. If that is done, it means that a board of only five members is just a sham; that the bill is window dressing leading up to a white elephant for the purpose of a probable general election. As far as we are concerned we want something done for the Atlantic provinces. We want it done on a democratic basis. We want full representation of all governments. That is why we have moved an amendment to increase the membership from five to 15, so as to make the board something realistic and effective, and which will produce results, instead of having a bill which will be passed by this house for no particular reason and to accomplish nothing at all.
(Translation):


David Réal Caouette: Mr. Chairman, listening to the members in the far corner of the house, you would think they are the only democrats in Canada.
It is precisely the socialists, those who shout, like my hon. friend-
(Text):


Donald MacInnis: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order I should like to suggest that the hon. member for Villeneuve is again practising what he is famous for both in this house and across the country.


Some hon. Members:: Sit down.


Gordon Campbell Chown: Order. The committee has before it an amendment to increase the size of the Atlantic development board from five members to 15. That is what is under discussion. What we have heard so far from the hon. member from Villeneuve is not applicable in the narrow sense to the amendment under discussion. There may be some remarks he wishes to make which would be more appropriate at some other time. (Translation):


David Réal Caouette: Mr. Chairman, at this stage, while keeping within the suggestion to increase from 5 to 15 the number of members of this board, we still retain the right to refute what was just said by the socialists in this house.
Listening to them, one would think that they are the only democrats in Canada, when the true socialists of the world are the communists in Russia who are the closest to those people.
(Text):


Gordon Campbell Chown: Order. I have to rule that the remarks of the hon. member on this
amendment to a clause of the bill at this point of the debate are out of order. Is the house ready for the question?


Some hon. Members:: Question.


Mr. Aiken:: Mr. Chairman-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Gordon Harvey Aiken: Mr. Chairman, I have been trying to get your eye to raise a point which I think the committee should consider before proceeding to vote on this particular amendment. A point was raised that the amendment was out of order because it was making a charge upon the treasury, but there is a more basic matter I should like to draw to Your Honour's attention.


Gordon Campbell Chown: The Chair has ruled affirmatively on the admissibility of this amendment, so there is no argument on that question, unless the hon. member has some different grounds.


Gordon Harvey Aiken: Mr. Chairman, I should like to raise this matter as a point of order, but if when I have finished Your Honour thinks I am out of order, I still think it is basic to voting on this clause. Briefly, it is this. The bill provides for a small group, and if the members of the committee will examine the various clauses such as clause 3 which we are now considering, clause 4 which deals with alterations in the membership in the board, clause 6 which provides that three members shall constitute a quorum, and various other clauses, it can easily be seen that the basic principle of the bill is to set up a small committee of five members. It is on this basis that the bill was originally approved. My point is that to change the number of members of the board from five to 15, as the amendment proposes, is in effect to change the entire principle of the bill and for that reason the amendment should be ruled out of order.


Harold Edward Winch: I rise on a point of order.


Gordon Campbell Chown: Order. The hon. member for Parry Sound-Muskoka is speaking to a point of order. I will have to hear him out first.


Gordon Harvey Aiken: I was going to add that I think this is a basic point which was not considered by the committee previously, and if we do not consider it now we will have to consider it when we come to the other clauses, because as each one is reached we will be altering the bill further and creating a principle entirely different from the original one. If after hearing my remarks, Mr. Chairman, you think I am out of order, may I say that I still think this is a principle which should be considered before we vote on this amendment.

Atlantic Development Board


Gordon Campbell Chown: Unless some member of the committee wishes to add something, perhaps I may be allowed to dispose of this point right away, and I have no difficulty in doing so. My view is that the amendment offered now does not broaden the scope of the bill particularly or change the principle of the bill.
I think that the other clauses referred to by the hon. member for Parry Sound-Muskoka would have to be amended by action on the part of the same members of the house as a direct consequence of their first amendment, and therefore I would assume that they would follow through with the additional amendments which I also anticipated in looking over the bill as a whole. That is my reasoning on that particular point, and that is the way I think it should be disposed of.


Mr, Winch:: That is exactly the point I wanted to draw to your attention a few moments ago.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Chairman, I wish to ask the minister if he can tell the house-I do not believe he has done so- whether it is the intention to see to it that the four provincial areas will be represented on the .board. In that event what does he propose to do about the various segments of opinion and groups which might be said to represent the economic avocations?
If the minister would give some explanation of his intention in this regard it might be helpful to some of us who are a little disturbed at the moment as to what should be the numerical composition of the board. I think the hon. member for York South suggested that he was not wedded to 15 as proposed in the amendment and it may be that some compromise can be reached. This will afford an opportunity for the minister to explain exactly how the government intends to appoint these members up to the number of five. If in the employment of the method the minister has in mind it is not possible to reach the main segments in the Atlantic area and take into account the four provincial regions perhaps a higher number than five may be desired, though not necessarily 15. The hon. member for York South has suggested a compromise which I think should cause the minister to explain more clearly than he has, and with greater precision, exactly what the government has in mind with regard to the basis on which it is going to appoint these people.


Gordon Campbell Chown: Is the committee ready for the question? Those in favour of the amendment please rise.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Before the amendment is put, may I ask him if he has any views to give in answer to my question?


Mr. Jones:: He has already answered it.


Hugh John Flemming: I would be very glad to answer the question of the hon. member for Essex East to the extent of my limited knowledge of the future. I am sure he would be the first to admit that it is difficult to predetermine every detail of every bill that comes before the house, but the hon. member can be sure that there will be the greatest possible disposition to see that all economic segments as well as provincial areas are represented, if for no other reason than to avoid the criticism which he himself would level. I think he will be the first one to admit that it will be the desire of the government to have every segment of the population, economic, political and otherwise, represented in one capacity or another.


Harold Edward Winch: By five on the board?
Amendment (Mr. Maclnnis) negatived: Yeas, 13; nays, 121.


[Stage Direction]
Clause agreed to.
On clause 4-Appointment of members.
Donald MacInnis: Mr. Chairman, having in mind what has happened to the last amendment, I hope that the Liberal members of the house will be a little more anxious to support us on this one. In view of the political appointments made by the government during the past couple of months, I think this amendment is most desirable. I therefore move-


Gordon Campbell Chown: Order. The hon. member for Mercier on a point of order.
(Translation):


Mr. Boulanger:: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. A few minutes ago, we heard an N.D.P. member complain that the French speaking members were speaking so fast that he could not understand them. For the information of the hon. member who has just resumed his seat, I must say that he, himself, speaks too quickly in his own language and that I find it hard to follow the interpretation of his remarks.


Donald MacInnis: Mr. Chairman, I have no difficulty in understanding French.
(Text):
Mr. Chairman, dealing with clause 4, I should like to move that subclause 1 of clause 4 be deleted and the following substituted therefor:
Each of the members of the board shall be appointed to hold office for a term of three years except that of those first appointed, one shall be appointed for a term of one year and two shall be appointed for a term of two years.

The reasoning behind this is, as I say, there is a tendency for certain political appointments to be made to boards of this kind. This is a very important board and we may be stuck with a dud for three years. This way, we can get rid of him. However, if they happen to do a good job, they can be reappointed very easily.


Some hon. Members:: Question, question.
Amendment (Mr. Maclnnis) negatived: Yeas, 56, nays, 74.


Gordon Campbell Chown: I declare the amendment lost. Shall clause 4 carry?


Paul Joseph James Martin: No, Mr. Chairman. Will the minister explain why there is no provision in this clause for the appointment of a member during good behaviour. This provision is in the other bills, one of which has already been introduced in this house and two of which have yet to be introduced. This is the usual policy in respect of members appointed to bodies by parliament. Will the minister explain why the phrase "during good behaviour" has been left out of this bill?


Hugh John Flemming: Mr. Chairman, I can understand the hon. member for Essex East raising this point under ordinary circumstances, but what he is completely overlooking is the fact this board will be composed of members from the maritimes.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I must say that the minister has given a clever retort. He is to be congratulated on his retort, of course, but this does not take care of the gap in this bill. It is conceivable that the government might appoint a Liberal to this board.


Some hon. Members:: No, no.


Paul Joseph James Martin: This is doubtful, but in that event I am sure the minister would find occasion, or some reason for saying that there was a lack of good behaviour. In any event, this is bad draftsmanship. The minister does not want to introduce a measure which would stand unique in this particular. I suggest he ought to add those words in both 4(1) and 4(2). I would suggest that in 4(1), line 21, after the word "board" there should be added the words "during good behaviour".


Hugh John Flemming: With
great respect, Mr. Chairman, I submit that the insertion of the words "during good behaviour", while they may be legally desirable, would not be practicable in relation to an advisory board which we hope would consist of outstanding men who would be giving their
Atlantic Development Board services without remuneration. I believe such men should not have a clause in the bill reflecting on their behaviour.
If this were a board, the members of which receive a large salary and there was grave danger of a disservice being done to the object of the board by an improper appointment, which I do not for a moment admit, then I could see some merit in the hon. member's suggestion. In this particular instance, for the reason which I gave first and then for the reason that I think the men are really donating their services, I could not accept such a suggestion. If this legislation were being introduced by the hon. member for Essex East, I believe the same thing would apply. Men who are donating their services should not be hamstrung with a phrase reflecting on their behaviour.


Lester Bowles Pearson: The minister has given a very ingenious explanation for the omission of these words which are customary in clauses making provision for appointments of this kind. He has said that the gentlemen appointed to this board will be outstanding citizens and therefore their good behaviour could be taken for granted; it would be something almost invidious to put in words about good behaviour. The minister should be reminded that even in connection with such an important board as the national economic development board, the appointments to that board are to be made during good behaviour. Are we to draw the inference from the inclusion of these words in connection with one board that appointments to that board are not being considered on the same kind of high level of objectivity and unselfish behaviour that the members of the Atlantic board will be expected to observe?


Harold Edward Winch: In view of the statement just made by the Leader of the Opposition-I think I got it right-that it would be invidious to put in the words "good behaviour", in connection with appointments to this board, and in view of the fact there is an amendment by the hon. member for Essex East that these words be included, does he thereby infer that there is a difference in behaviour when Liberals are in opposition and when they are in government?


Rémi Paul: Order. I must say to the hon. member for Vancouver East that we have no amendment on the table.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Chairman, I will move, seconded by the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate-


John Whitney Pickersgill: You do not have a seconder in committee.

Atlantic Development Board


Paul Joseph James Martin: that in line 21, clause 4, after the word "board" there shall be added the words "during good behaviour". The rest of the clause continues as it is.


Harold Edward Winch: May I ask one question, Mr. Chairman? This is something which over the years, provincially and federally, has intrigued me. The hon. member for Essex East now sits in opposition but for many years he sat in government. Now, having moved this amendment will he please explain from either place, in government or in opposition, what is the interpretation in law of the term "during good behaviour"?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Well, Mr. Chairman, as my hon. friend knows it is not customary for the government to give any legal opinions to the House of Commons. That precedent has been well established by the Minister of Justice. But as I think the question is a proper one some kind of legal opinion should be forthcoming. The phrase "during good behaviour" is used in all statutes. It is part of the technique of good draftsmanship and it means precisely what it says, that a man shall hold office during good behaviour.
The courts on one occasion have said that a person appointed to serve as a member of a workmen's compensation board could not be said to have complied with the requirement of "good behaviour" when, outside of the office which he occupied, in a speech having to do with the administration of the workmen's compensation board he complained about the administration of the board of which he was a member. The courts held he acted contrary to the standard of "during good behaviour." This is a demonstration of the meaning. It is a symbolic definition which I am sure has touched the perceptive mind of the hon. gentleman.


Harold Edward Winch: May I just say, sir, that I thank the hon. member for Essex East for his explanation. Even now in opposition he shows that he learned the lessons of cabinet very well, to answer a question without giving any information.


Rémi Paul: Is the committee ready for the question? Those in favour of the amendment please rise.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Chairman-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Rémi Paul: Order. I think the Minister of Justice has a few words to say.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Not after the vote was called.


Rémi Paul: Order. All those in favour of the amendment please rise.
Amendment negatived: yeas, 61; nays, 71.
Clause 4 agreed to.
On clause 5-Travelling and living expenses.


Hugh John Flemming: Mr. Chairman, I was going to ask my colleague, the Minister of Fisheries, to move an amendment.


Mr. MacLean (Queens):: Mr. Chairman, I
move:
That Bill C-94, an act to provide for the establishment of an Atlantic development board, be amended by striking out subclause (2) of clause 5 thereof and substituting therefor the following:
(2) Notwithstanding subsection (1), the chairman of the board may be paid such amount per annum as an honorarium as may be approved by the governor in council.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Mr. Argue:: What about the rights of parliament here?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, I would like to raise a point of order. It would appear to me that the effect of this amendment would be to raise a charge against the exchequer, and it is a well known rule of the house that no charge may be imposed on the exchequer without a message from the crown. There has been no message from the crown to provide for this additional payment, which is over $3,000 as the minister has told us, and indeed according to the wording here could be quite unlimited. Indeed it could be almost anything that they consider this gentleman worthy of, whether he was of good behaviour or not.
It seems to me that the committee just cannot proceed under the rules with this amendment until the minister has brought in a resolution and indicated that this additional expenditure has been recommended to us by His Excellency, just as was done by the Minister of Finance this afternoon when he brought in the resolution for the increase in salaries of public servants.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Chairman, I have had very few opportunities this session to come to the defence of the government, but I cannot resist this opportunity to remind the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate that the resolution that preceded this bill did not state any maximum amount of money that might be spent under it. As a matter of fact that is why we felt earlier that amendments to this bill increasing the size of the board or providing for extra expenses could be made from this corner, because the resolution preceding the bill, which was passed on

December 4, does not fix any maximum amount so far as salary, expenses or any other item is concerned. Beauchesne's fourth edition, citation 251, says:
It may happen that the resolution sanctions some expenditure without fixing the maximum amount to be spent. If, for instance, the resolution recommends that adequate salaries be paid a newly constituted body and the amounts of the salaries are fixed in the bill based on that resolution, the committee on the bill has the right to increase those amounts, because, in doing so, it does not go beyond the scope of the royal recommendation.
Therefore, Mr. Chairman, I feel that the amendment is in order. But I want to make it clear that the reason I am so ready to protect the government's right to move an amendment of this kind is that I want to protect our right to do the same thing.


David Lewis: Mr. Chairman, may I ask the minister whether it is the intention that the chairman be a full-time person? Is the present amendment designed to make him a full-time member of the board, or is it, as it now reads, still to be a spare time avocation, the honorarium of which may be higher than $3,000 a year?


Hugh John Flemming: Mr,
Chairman, I think a few days ago when we were debating another part of the legislative passage of this bill I explained that I proposed to offer this amendment and gave as my reason the fact that there were various matters which entered into the setting of the salary. One would be the amount of time that a man gave; another would be the type of man who was engaged for the purpose; another might be even the results achieved. All these items, I submit, would be factors in the determination of the salary. I cannot answer categorically the question asked by the hon. member for York South because it is as yet undetermined who the chairman shall be.


Mr. Byrne:: Mr. Chairman, on the point of order, while it may be quite true that under the rules the committee is permitted to change the amount of remuneration for any person appointed to a board, I should like to point out that the committee is not at this time setting the amount of remuneration; it is still leaving the amount open to be dictated by the members of the government. I should think it was not in accordance with the rules of the house to leave an open amount for the minister to pay at his pleasure. I am sure the minister must know at this time what he expects of the chairman of this board. It should not be determined on what we may expect the board to do, or be doing several years from now. The government should know precisely what they wish to have this chairman undertake. I am sure this committee
Atlantic Development Board should know the amount the chairman is going to be paid before it passes this bill.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Chairman, I cannot conceal my astonishment at the explanation given by the minister for this particular amendment in the form in which it is put. He has told the committee that one reason why it is impossible to be more specific on this matter than is the case is that the remuneration of the chairman or the payment to the chairman will have to be decided in the light of certain factors. Surely when we are setting up a board of this kind the government knows what it expects the chairman to do, and surely it must have in mind the compensation he should receive for the duty he is to perform.
The minister said there are certain factors which have to be taken into consideration before we can decide what we will pay him. One of these factors is the number of hours he will spend at work, how much time he will give to his duties; another is the kind of man he may be. If he is one kind of man he will get one salary, if he is another kind of man he will perhaps get a different salary. Even more surprising, the minister said that he will be compensated by the results achieved. How can the minister decide now, before the man is appointed, how much to give the chairman of the board on the basis of the results achieved? It seems to me to be an extraordinary way to proceed in respect of an appointment of this kind, which is so important for a board which the government has told us is going to be so important.
(Translation):


Mr. Gregoire:: Mr. Chairman, speaking for myself and not on behalf of my party. I want to say that I am opposed to this amendment for a number of reasons.
First, it is tantamount to writing out a blank cheque in favour of the government for a new post which is to be set up. No mention is made of any salary. All that is said is that the salary will be proportionate to the results obtained. But judging from the salaries paid to officials according to the results obtained, we see that the official with the highest salary, namely $75,000 per annum, is the head of an organization which shows the highest deficit: $70 million a year.
If that is the way salaries are determined, I believe that the incumbent will make sure that he comes up with the heaviest deficit in order to receive the highest salary.
I am also opposed because I have noticed that the higher the salary some officials get, the more arrogant they are. Evidence of that was given us recently. And I wonder also if
2522	HOUSE OF
Atlantic Development Board it is not a post that is to be offered to the president of the Canadian National Railways, whose resignation everyone is asking for.


Rémi Paul: Order. I am sorry but I have to point out to the hon. member for Lapointe (Mr. Gregoire) that he cannot link the amendment under discussion to the behaviour of an official, whoever he may be and whatever the crown corporation he is connected with.
I would ask the hon. member to limit his remarks to the subject matter of the amendment itself.


Gilles Grégoire: To continue, it is quite simple. I have given an example, and that is why I am against the proposed amendment. An amount should be set and if, later, there is need to change it, that could be done through an amendment to the act. That is done all the time; why should it be impossible in this case?
(Text):


Miss LaMarsh:: Mr. Chairman, there is a question I would like to pose to the minister with respect to the amendment offered. It is apparent since this legislation was in the resolution stage and has been given considerable publicity that this is one of those emergency measures of which the government spoke so frequently, otherwise I presume it would not be before the house before Christmas. I wonder whether the government has in fact already inquired of suitable people as to whether they might find a chairman, and whether $3,000 a year would be sufficient for anyone who is qualified; or has the government, following its usual practice, decided that amongst those defeated Conservative members of the 1958 parliament there may be someone who wishes a greater honorarium and they have thus decided, without being able to say to whom they will give the job, that they require a blank cheque from parliament in order that they may pay it to the person who offers to come for the least amount of money? I have not been very long in the house. This is the first time I have been asked to give a blank cheque in order that a position might be filled. Surely the minister must have some idea of what will be required to pay any individual who undertakes this function. I suggest the committee should not be asked to give the government a blank cheque with respect to this amendment and, if asked, that it should never consent.


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: This amendment was introduced by the Minister of Fisheries. Surely the committee is entitled to hear from him the real reasons or justification for this amendment.


John Angus MacLean: During the course of the debate there has been some objection, I believe, to limiting the salary which is proposed for the chairman of this important board. There have been some remarks made in the committee tonight, some by the hon. member for Niagara Falls and by the hon. member for Cape Breton South which are, in my opinion, unworthy of the hon. members concerned. They implied, for example, that ladies and gentlemen of this country who have a deep sense of public service and who have often at great inconvenience to themselves, offered to stand for parliament are in some mysterious way thereby reduced in the public esteem to some category which would not allow them to serve on any public board. That sort of attitude is, in my humble opinion, contemptible, and it reflects very badly on the thinking of those who make such statements. We are Canadians, and there are many people in this country who were proud to serve this nation in various capacities. During the war, for example, there were hundreds of Canadians who served for a dollar a year.


Julia Verlyn (Judy) LaMarsh: I only got ninety cents a day.


John Angus MacLean: They should have made it 89 cents a day and made it look like a bargain.


Julia Verlyn (Judy) LaMarsh: I am sure the minister would wish to withdraw that last remark, because 90 cents a day was the amount paid to thousands of Canadian women who served in His late Majesty's uniform.


John Angus MacLean: I shall be glad to withdraw that remark if, by making it, I cast inadvertently any reflection on any woman who served during world war II. But I want to say this: during the war many Canadians served for a dollar a year. There are many citizens of the maritime provinces who are deeply concerned with serving their area in particular, and it is quite possible that someone might come forward who did not wish to receive any remuneration except a nominal one. On the other hand, it might be advisable to provide a fairly substantial salary. This is a matter to be left to the governor in council.
As far as the point raised by the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate is concerned, the resolution already passed by this house does not limit in any way the amount which might be provided, as the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre has already pointed out. That, in a few words, is my understanding of why this amendment has been made. That is my reason for moving it

-so that there may be flexibility in this regard; so that there may be some variation depending on circumstances.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I think those of us who have followed the debate in the resolution stage and on the bill itself thus far have been impressed by the way the minister has conducted himself as the spokesman for the government. But I think tonight he has not done himself justice, nor has he lived up to the high standard which he had set for himself in the period preceding tonight's discussion.
To say to this committee now, that the government has no idea what the salary of the chairman is to be, to suggest that the government is not clear about the amount of time the chairman will spend in the discharge of his duties, to remind us that the minister is not clear as to the kind of person he has in mind, is to establish without any doubt that we are justified in assuming that, notwithstanding what was desired, this bill is nothing more than a fagade, that this bill does not represent the endeavour which the minister said was his in seeking to provide an instrument to deal with the serious economic problems which face the Atlantic provinces.
In clause 4 and all the subclauses thereof it is provided that not one member of the board, including the chairman, will be expected to spend his full time in the discharge of his duties. I hope it is not contrary to our rules to refer to bills which are not yet before us-no exception was taken when my hon. friend the Leader of the Opposition spoke a few moments ago. But it will be found that in the other bill which is shortly to be discussed in this house the chairman is expected to spend his full time in the prosecution of the assignment given him, for the simple reason that it is not possible to discharge such an obligation unless he does devote his full time to the assignment. The government claims this Atlantic development board is to serve a useful and substantial purpose. If the minister says to us, as he has indicated, that it is not yet determined how much the chairman will receive, that it is not yet determined how much time he will spend in the discharge of the duties assigned in clause 9, then it is clear that this bill is not intended to do the job which well meaning members of this house, notwithstanding their criticism, have assumed was the intention behind this measure.
The Atlantic provinces face some serious problems. They have the highest level of unemployment of any region in our country -a greater percentage of unemployment in the work force. Is it to be assumed that this
Atlantic Development Board problem is going to be corrected by a chairman whose salary is indeterminate, by a chairman who will not be expected to spend his full time in the discharge of his obligations? Surely the minister does not want us to persist in pointing out the absurd position into which he has been driven as a result of the uncertain policy which apparently, his colleagues have imposed on him in their unwillingness to state in this clause how much is to be paid to the chairman. Surely the minister now has in mind who is to be the chairman. Surely he knows how much that person is worth. Surely he knows that that person will be able to work X number of hours. I would contend that if this job is to be done properly he should devote his full time to it, and that he should be well remunerated for so doing.
The history of this clause is revealing. Hon. gentlemen, when confronted with this subsection, noted that the chairman was to receive only $3,000. They concluded, and I think quite properly, that if a man was going to be paid only $3,000 a year, he could not possibly be expected to spend his full time at the job, and that if he did not he was not the kind of person to whom should be entrusted the responsibility which is being provided for under this act. I say to the minister that he has handled this bill, in my judgment, as adroitly and efficiently as any member of this government has been able to demonstrate his or her capacity so to do, but he does not do himself justice when he allows himself to let rest the explanation which he gives. One might expect that kind of explanation from the Minister of Justice, but one would not expect that the present minister with his experience as head of a provincial government and with the sincerity which obviously he had when he introduced this measure, would give this sort of explanation. I appeal to him to take the house into his confidence. When the government formed this board, in concept at any rate, it must have had in mind the kind of chairman it wanted. It must have had in mind an outstanding person, I presume in the Atlantic provinces, one who knows the Atlantic provinces, who is aware of the problems facing the fishermen, the farmers, and those engaged in the factories and the universities, the kind of person who could represent the four different provincial regions. That kind of person obviously must be a man of considerable competence. We ask the minister to tell us whether or not this bill was drawn up simply because the government was hard put to demonstrate that it had a program to meet the problems, which are now of an emergent character, and that it was not resorting to this particular technique-as has been done

Atlantic Development Board by the government on other occasions-of introducing a measure which looks good but which lacks, on examination, any substance whatsoever. If the minister tells us tonight-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I am glad I have given my hon. friends and particularly the Minister of Justice, some cause for merriment.


Donald Methuen Fleming: You have given us some bad grammar.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I can assure hon. gentlemen that the explanation the Minister of Fisheries and the Minister of National Revenue have given tonight will not go down well with the Atlantic provinces. They expect something more from this government. If the government has in mind-


Thomas Miller Bell: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, they got nothing from the Liberals for 22 years.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Chairman, I always appreciate the interventions of the hon. member for Saint John-Albert. They always consist of single sentences which are so incomprehensible that even on reflection and upon re-reading they are not understood by himself.
The Minister of Fisheries said that it may be that the analogy of the dollar-a-year man will apply, and that perhaps someone who does not need assistance or remuneration by the crown will take on this responsibility as a voluntary assignment. I am sure that there are many people in the Atlantic provinces who are capable of fitting in with this concept which the Minister of Fisheries has in mind. But in such an event there would be no difficulty in such person returning the salary which might be given under this bill to such a chairman.
The minister said that the bill is intended to represent a serious endeavour; that it is an attempt to provide the government with an advisory body to deal with the fundamental economic problems which face the Atlantic provinces. If that is the case I suggest that the minister take this subsection back to his colleagues and tell them he is embarrassed by the explanation they have caused him to make tonight. Then let him come back and tell us that he has in mind somebody who will spend his full time on the job, who will be paid a salary adequate to the demands which will be made upon him. No explanation less than this will satisfy this house. No explanation less than this will satisfy the Atlantic provinces. Anything less than this will be evidence of an intention on
the part of the government to introduce in this bill something that looks good in form but which is not capable, in its very wording and provisions, of doing anything substantial to help the Atlantic area.


Hugh John Flemming: Mr. Chairman, the observations made by the hon. member for Essex East are not the observations that one would expect from someone who had read the bill through. If the hon. member would read the bill he would find that the executive director is the full time servant of the board. It was never necessarily intended that the chairman would be full time. If he has not taken the trouble to read the bill, then I am not responsible for his lack of perception. But he himself is responsible if he has not read the bill through and is not familiar with all its details. Therefore I suggest that he read the bill through, because he will find the answers to most of the points he has raised. I would say this to him, that I am not particularly worried about how the people of the Atlantic provinces will take this bill. They will consider that this bill is a forward step, and much more than they ever got from the government of which he was a member. Whenever the Atlantic provinces wanted something, no matter how much-


Rémi Paul: Order. It being ten o'clock shall I rise, report progress, and request leave to sit again?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
Clause 5 stands.
Progress reported.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could inquire from the house leader if the government has decided what they are going to bring forward tomorrow?


Gordon Minto Churchill: A continuation of this particular bill, Mr. Speaker, on the general understanding that, having started a bill, we will try to carry it through to completion. That having been finished, we will then go on with the national economic development board, and on Wednesday the Minister of Finance will be prepared for interim supply. Immediately after orders of the day tomorrow I should like to consult with the house leaders of the various parties, now that we have an idea of how much progress we can make this week.


[Stage Direction]
It being three minutes after ten o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[Stage Direction]
Tuesday, December 11, 1962