1962-03-01

Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, I am sure the house will permit me to make reference to the presence in the gallery today of distinguished representatives of the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States who are here for the purpose of attending the meeting of the Canadian-United States interparliamentary group. I think, for the purpose of the record, I should place on Hansard the names of the various representatives who are here.
The Senate is represented by Hon. George D. Aiken, chairman; Hon. Roman L. Hruska; Hon. Pat McNamara; Hon. Mrs. Maurine B. Neuberger and Hon. Claiborne Pell. The representatives of the House of Representatives are Hon. Cornelius E. Gallagher, chairman; Hon. Laurence Curtis; Hon. William S. Broomfield; Hon. William T. Murphy; Hon. Robert N. Giaimo; Hon. John M. Slack, Jr.; Hon. Harold T. Johnson; Hon. Daniel K. Inouye; Hon. Stanley R. Tupper who, by the way, is a descendant of Sir Charles Tupper, one time prime minister of Canada; Hon. Howard W. Robison and Hon. James Harvey.
I extend on behalf of this house, and I am sure the members of the opposition will join with me, the warmest congratulations and good wishes. Indeed, the hon. member for Laurier (Mr. Chevrier) will recall that in the month of January, 1943, for the first time in our history members of the congress of the United States met members of the Canadian parliament and members of the various parliaments of the commonwealth here in Ottawa to discuss those matters that particularly affected the welfare of our respective nations. He knows the close relationship that prevails and which we all hope will continue in the years ahead between the United States and Canada and the other members of the commonwealth.
Then in 1958 this organization had its beginning. As I look back on that beginning I think generally speaking it will be recognized that this interparliamentary group embarked on an uncharted course which held out almost 26207-1-87i
as much prospect of adventure-some predicted misadventure-as did that trip into space the other day by Colonel Glenn. I believe that this interparliamentary group, and what it means in co-operation between our nations, is as important to all of us as any interplanetary activities. In its common dedication to the things in which we believe we are united in freedom.
These gatherings which alternate between Washington and Ottawa provide channels of communication that otherwise would not be available between the lawmakers of our two nations. These meetings permit a review of the ever widening range of our common interests, and these discussions assist us in our consideration of the solution of these problems.
One could say a great deal, but I think the message I am trying to convey could be summarized in a few words. While from time to time we have our differences, the things that unite us, being of the spirit, are becoming stronger with the passing years. What we need is infinite patience, with a full realization of the problems of each other, to the end that in mutual understanding, forbearance and patience we shall strengthen the bonds between our nations and thereby show the rest of the world what can be achieved when independent peoples, each maintaining their own sovereignty, are prepared to join together in peace for the welfare of their respective countries and, indeed, the welfare of all mankind.


Hon. Lionel Chevrier (Laurier):: I would like to echo the words of the Prime Minister in welcoming the members of the Canada-United States interparliamentary committee to Canada. This has been an excellent committee, which has done work of a practical and permanent nature. There are unquestionably important problems to solve between our country and the United States, problems which may cause difficulty and friction; but when we look at what has transpired in the past, and particularly at what took place during the war years between our two countries-I have in mind now our balance of trade payments, the construction of the Alaska highway and the building of the northwest passage-I can come to no other conclusion but that when men of good will and understanding want to solve problems, they can do it. I can remember, too, in those years when there was some difficulty about receiving into the Yukon certain members of the United States army
1370	HOUSE OF
U.S. Representatives in Gallery because of war regulations. Those members were admitted into Canada by means of an order in council which exempted them under the title of "distinguished citizens".
I should like to mention the St. Lawrence seaway as another example, sir, of the manner in which our problems have been solved, because I had some little experience with that project. There we had difficulties of construction, of costs and of plans and specifications in the international section of the river. I can pay no greater tribute to those from the United States who sat on the opposite side of the table from us than refer to the manner in which they helped, because of their understanding and co-operation, to solve many difficult problems.
I also commend you, sir, for the manner in which you have presided over the deliberations of the Canadian section of this committee and I wish you and those who are associated with you well in your deliberations.
(Translation):
Mr. Speaker, I would be remiss if I did not say a few words in my mother tongue to show the Canada-United States delegation that the house is bilingual.
Naturally, I address myself to all members of the committee but especially to Senator Aiken of Vermont, whose state is right next to the province of Quebec with which it has been maintaining good relations for many years.
I ask him to pay our respects to our Franco-American compatriots who live not only in Vermont but in all the states of New England.
To him and to all his distinguished colleagues, I offer our best wishes.
(Text):


Mr. Frank Howard (Skeena):: Mr. Speaker, as one of the members participating in the particular set of meetings that are going on, speaking on behalf of the members of the New Democratic party may I associate this group wholeheartedly with the remarks of welcome by the Prime Minister and the hon. member for Laurier to the distinguished senators and members of the House of Representatives of the United States who are with us for the sixth meeting of the Canada-United States interparliamentary group.
1 know that our members are unanimously of the opinion that it is impossible to find words to express our appreciation for the hospitality that has been shown to us on previous occasions. The ideas expressed by representatives of the United States are, from our point of view, excellent and the discussions are free and open. Frequently


their ideas have merit. Sometimes we differ with them and I am sure that sometimes they differ with our points of view, but I think agreements which are treasured the most are those agreements which are reached after the expression of differences of opinion.
This interparliamentary group affords an opportunity for the free, frank and fruitful discussion of problems of mutual concern to our respective countries. We trust that this visit will not only increase mutual understanding, but will be enjoyed and remembered by our visitors from the nation to the south. We know that our goal and objectives are the same, namely peace, prosperity and happiness not only for ourselves but for all nations of the world. We are sure these discussions will tend to move us more quickly toward these goals.



RAILWAYS, CANALS AND TELEGRAPH LINES

[Stage Direction]
Third report of committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines-Mr. Howe.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Paul Martin (Essex East):: I should like to ask the Prime Minister if he has any comment to make on the statement made this morning by Secretary of State Dean Rusk that the United States is willing to work out arrangements for joint control of nuclear weapons in Canada in a manner fully consistent with national sovereignty.


John George Diefenbaker: I shall have to give study to the remarks of Secretary Rusk, and when I have done so I will make a report to this house.


Hon. Paul Hellyer (Trinity):: A supplementary question. Mr. Rusk indicated that the United States had discussed such arrangements with other governments, but he did not mention any discussions with the Canadian government. Could the Prime Minister say whether discussions were held on this subject between the two governments and, if so, why they have been discontinued?


John George Diefenbaker: The hon. gentleman was here yesterday, and I am sure he had a complete answer to everything he is asking today.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Not at all. That is why I should like to press the question again.


Some hon. Members:: Order.



ARCTIC ISLANDS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, I should like to address a question to the Minister of National Defence. Will the minister comment on a Canadian Press statement emanating from Ottawa yesterday to the effect that the United States has picked out some 50 emergency landing strips in the Canadian Arctic islands for military and civilian planes? Is the statement factual, and are there any conditions governing the use of these fields?


Hon. D. S. Harkness (Minister of National Defence):: Mr. Speaker, I saw the article referred to but have no official information in that regard. I asked for a report from my officials, but have not yet received one.



INQUIRY AS TO PAYMENT BY CHINA

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Jack McIntosh (Swift Current-Maple Creek):: I should like to ask the Prime Minister a question which is really supplementary to the question I asked yesterday on the subject of wheat sales to China. In the latter part of his reply to my question the right hon. gentleman said:
The first three drafts under this credit arrangement were payable in the latter part of February, and all of them have been honoured on the scheduled date.
I wonder if the Prime Minister would inform the house as to the amount of those drafts in dollars and cents.


John George Diefenbaker: As I recollect it, there were three drafts amounting to some $2,900,000, those payments becoming due toward the end of February. In so far as March is concerned, there are a number of drafts which total some $8,050,000.



REPORTED STATEMENT BY EXTERNAL


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Lionel Chevrier: I wish to address a question to the Prime Minister. Has the Prime Minister any comment to make on the statement reported to have been made by the Secretary of State for External Affairs at a Progressive Conservative meeting in Toronto, that Canada's policy with regard to trade with Cuba would come under fire at the meeting of Canada-United States parliamentarians now under way?
Inquiries of the Ministry
Righl Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prime Minisler): After the very congenial circumstances of a few minutes ago, I am sure that nothing will come under fire.


Lionel Chevrier: I have a supplementary question to ask the Prime Minister, having to do with the fact that we are now on orders of the day and not on motions. The supplementary question is this. Does the Prime Minister feel that the statement made by his colleague-and I understand that the hon. gentleman shook his fist-to the effect that Canada would stick to its position, is the kind of opening gesture that will help this meeting.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, those of us who know the Secretary of State for External Affairs, who happens to be absent today, know that he does not require the shaking of a fist in order to emphasize a position.


Lionel Chevrier: I would appreciate it if the Prime Minister would answer the question.


Mr. Speaker:: Order.



CANADIAN NATIONAL STEAMSHIPS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. W. Herridge (Kooienay West):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to address an appropriate question to the Minister of Transport. In view of public interest and reported recent developments in the case of the Canadian National Steamships vessels which were sold to Cuban interests during the Batista regime, which failed to meet their obligations, leaving the ships to rot in Halifax, would the minister bring us up to date on the latest developments and state specifically whether the deal has now been completed to the government's satisfaction and whether any of the vessels are now in use?


Hon. Leon Balcer (Minister of Transport):: Mr. Speaker, the fleet of eight vessels was sold in August, 1958 to the Banco Cubano del Commercio Exterior of Havana, Cuba, for $2,800,000. The agreement of sale provided for an immediate cash payment of $560,000 with the balance payable in five equal annual instalments of $448,000, with interest on the unpaid balance at 5 per cent per annum. The instalment due in August, 1961 was met in full and the principal outstanding under the agreement has been reduced to $896,000. This balance plus interest continues to be covered by a letter of credit guaranteed by the Bank of America, New York.

Inquiries of the Ministry
The ships having been sold, the government has no knowledge as to whether they are now in use.



SHIPPING


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. L. R. Crouse (Queens-Lunenburg):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to address a question to the Minister of Transport. I regret not having had time to give him notice, so I would ask him to accept this question as notice. Would the Minister of Transport tell the house what arrangements are being made to prevent 100,000 gallons of bunker and fuel oil from leaking out of the freighter Suerte grounded at Three Fathom harbour, which could do great damage to the sea birds, beaches and inshore fisheries in that area?


Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker, I know that my department has been in touch with the owners and the underwriters of the vessel. I shall be pleased to tell the house tomorrow what progress has been made in these circumstances.



WATERLOO SOUTH


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Frank Howard: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Prime Minister. Inasmuch as we understand that March 8 is the last day for the issuing of writs for a by-election to be held in the constituency of Waterloo South, would the Prime Minister indicate to the house what plans are afoot in this regard?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, as the hon. gentleman pointed out, on March 8 a decision as to the date of the by-election will have to be made and an order in council passed accordingly. That will be done.


Paul Joseph James Martin: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. In view of the fact that the Prime Minister now acknowledges that a decision will have to be made, will the Prime Minister not say that this will be a very difficult thing for this government to do?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I have seen on the part of the hon. gentleman in the last few days less demand for an election than in the past.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Bring one on. Let
us have one.


Lionel Chevrier: Fix the date.



INQUIRY AS TO CHANGE OF NAME OF LIBERAL PARTY

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Frank McGee (York-Scarborough):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the acting house leader. In view of the recent events which resulted in a change in the seating arrangements in this house, I wonder whether the house leader has received a request from the Leader of the Opposition to change the designation of that party to the Socialist Liberal party?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The question is not one related to the administrative responsibilities of any minister. In view of the fact that it has been asked, I do not know whether the hon. member for Laurier was rising in order to answer it or to comment.


An hon. Member:: The Ottawa Journal could answer it.


Lionel Chevrier: I was rising to do two things, Mr. Speaker. The first was to comment on the statement made by the hon. member, to the effect that we have never changed our name on this side of the house.


An hon. Member:: You will after the next election.



GREETINGS ON ANNIVERSARY OF PATRON SAINT OF WALES

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. F. Jones (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Veterans Affairs):: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege. In order to show the affinity and affection which those of Welsh descent feel toward all other minority groups may I say this.
(Translation):
On behalf of all people of Welsh descent, I should like to extend my best wishes to all hon. members and to our distinguished visitors on the occasion of St. David's day.
(Text):
To complete my salute to St. David may I say to all, iechyd da.



PRODUCTIVITY COUNCIL


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. E. L. Morris (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Trade and Commerce):: Mr. Speaker, yesterday the hon. member for Peterborough directed a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce arising out of a newspaper announcement to the effect that Mr. E. P. Taylor had declined reappointment to the national productivity council. The hon. member asked:
Can the minister indicate this gentleman's reasons for not accepting reappointment?

It was with great reluctance that Mr. E. P. Taylor accepted an appointment to the national productivity council last year, and it was agreed that his appointment would be for one year only. Mr. Taylor has indicated in a letter to the chairman of the national productivity council that, were it not for the fact that circumstances beyond his control make it impossible for him to devote the time required to the affairs of the productivity council, he would be glad to let his name stand for reappointment.
It is well known that Mr. Taylor has many commitments in other directions, and it is therefore not possible for him to devote the necessary time.
(Translation):



PUBLIC SERVICE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Samuel Boulanger (Drummond-Artha-baska):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Secretary of State even though it was put to him some time ago.
Since the former under secretary of state, Mr. Stein, resigned a few months ago, does the Secretary of State intend to appoint a successor in the near future or, at least, before dissolution of parliament?


Hon. Noel Dorion (Secretary of Stale):: Mr. Speaker, this matter does not come exclusively under the jurisdiction of the Secretary of State. At any rate, I can inform the hon. member that the cabinet is aware of the situation and that the matter will be settled shortly.
(Text):



TRANS-CANADA AIR LINES REQUEST FOR REVIEW OF ANNOUNCED FARE INCREASES

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Lionel Chevrier: The question I wish to ask the Minister of Transport is this. Will he refer to the air transport board the question of increased tariffs and tolls which Trans-Canada Air Lines has announced it will put into effect soon with reference to its routes?


Léon Balcer: As I announced some time ago, Mr. Speaker, T.C.A. would be in the same position as any other carrier in Canada as far as the air transport board is concerned. T.C.A. has filed its new rate increases, and they are at the present time being reviewed by the air transport board. If for one reason or another the air transport board does not feel that the
Supply-Public Works
rates are adequate or are the proper rates, it has until April 30 to refuse or accept those rates.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Martineau in the chair.


The Chairman:: House again in committee of supply, further supplementary estimates for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1962; vote No. 635, Department of Forestry. Shall this vote carry?


Some hon. Members:: No.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Is the minister not going to make the customary statement?


Mr. Siewart:: He has made it already.
Where have you been?


Paul Raymond Martineau: Order. The item that was under consideration last night was item 635, and so far there has been no notification to the Chair of a change of programs.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Last evening the government leader in the house came to the opposition and said that the business before the house today would be consideration of the estimates of the Department of Public Works.


Mr. Winch:: The main estimates.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: This information was transmitted to the members of the opposition, and that is the work for which they have prepared for this day.


Paul Raymond Martineau: In view of the explanation given by certain members of the house, I take it that it would be in order to go ahead to this item in the estimates of the Department of Public Works for the year ending March 31, 1963.



DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC WORKS

[Stage Direction]
1. General administration including a grant of $2,000 to the Canadian good roads association, $11,098,000.
Paul Raymond Martineau: Shall the vote carry?


Some hon. Members:: No.


Mr. Bourgei:: Is the minister going to make a statement?


Mr. Walker:: If the opposition is anxious for me to do so I shall be very happy to oblige.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: If we could get another performance like the one we had the other night, it would be very amusing.


David James Walker: May I describe briefly first the world of housing as we understand it in this House of Commons. There can be no question of

Supply-Public Works
the very heavy and continuing impact of the house building and related industries on the national economy, an impact that has been revealed in all its sharpness and clarity by the giant forward steps taken by this government during the years since it assumed office in June of 1957.
It is not my purpose or intention today to review in detail all the developments that have taken place during the past four and a half years as a result of the federal government's interest in and concern with housing. Even a simple chronology of events, a straight recital of new legislation, policy determinations and procedural adjustments, would take more time than I have at my disposal. The events have been many in number and forward thinking in nature, and have arisen out of our forthright common sense approach to the complex problems that have confronted us and out of our ability to adapt to meet changing circumstances. And woven into the whole fabric of housing, bright and chromatic in its colours, has been our resolute determination to assist those Canadians whose needs are most urgent, namely the lower income families of our nation and our senior citizens.
I shall have more to say about these considerations a little later in my remarks. In searching for a means by which I may most vividly impart to hon. members something of the drama of housing in Canada, I came across some statistics that can be readily interpreted and easily digested, even by the hon. member for Trinity. I cite the figure of $3,271 million.


Mr, Hellyer:: Mighty big figures.


David James Walker: They are, and perhaps if you come to me later I will explain them to you.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: I hope you will have found out in the meantime.


David James Walker: This is the dollar value, since 1957, of National Housing Act mortgage loan commitments by the approved lenders and by Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation, N.H.A. loans for municipal sewage treatment projects university housing, the federal share of costs of public housing, both rental and land assembly, and of urban renewal studies and grants for slum clearance. This is, of course, a staggering sum, even in these days of astronomical figures. It serves, however, to set the scene in a new and perhaps different dimension, to reveal the effectiveness of the amended National Housing Act as a legislative instrument, and to emphasize the significant role of the house building industry in the economic and social life of the country.

Of this amount of $3,271 million, more than $1.6 billion-for my friend, that is one billion six hundred million dollars-was invested in national housing and related requirements in Ontario, while Quebec's share was $581 million. The balance-if hon. members of the C.C.F. party or what is left of it would be good enough to either retire to the smoking room or pay attention, I would be able to carry on.


Mr. Fisher:: Mr. Chairman, I do not think we have to take that kind of insult. We have been sitting here listening.


Paul Raymond Martineau: Order. I think there has been a lot of coming and going throughout the whole house. However, it appears as if all hon. members are now settled down and are keen on hearing the minister.


Frank Howard: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, may I indicate to the minister that, one, I do not smoke and, two, he is usually not worth listening to anyhow.


David James Walker: I want to thank the hon. member. He has my permission to retire. As a matter of fact we would all be very pleased if he did.


Mr. Peters:: Get on with your jokes.


David James Walker: I would be glad to.


Paul Raymond Martineau: I would ask the hon. members to be silent.


David James Walker: There must be five of you left.


William Arnold Peters: You will be the one who is leaving.


Paul Raymond Martineau: Order. The minister may continue.


David James Walker: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. For the benefit of those who were not paying attention, perhaps I may review what I said. Of this amount of $3,271 million, more than $1.6 billion was invested in N.H.A. housing and related requirements in Ontario, while Quebec's share-of course, this does not interest the new party representatives- was some-$581 million.


William Arnold Peters: Why don't you make your speech to the country?


An hon. Member:: Keep quiet.


Paul Raymond Martineau: Order, please. The minister has the floor, and I am sure everyone will have a chance to make whatever remarks he deems appropriate when the time comes.


David James Walker: The balance, Mr. Chairman, was roughly divided as follows: British Columbia, $256 million; prairie provinces, $700 million and the Atlantic provinces, $130 million.

Now, what happened in the field of housing in 1961? In the first place, 125,577 new dwelling units were started during the year. This was much more than we anticipated, and was an increase of 15.3 per cent over the 108,858 starts reported in 1960 and brought the total starts during the five year period, 1957-1961, to nearly 663,000 new dwellings.


Mr. Marlin (Timmins):: Go paddle your canoe.


David James Walker: I understand you are becoming a capitalist in playing golf whenever the opportunity presents itself.


William Arnold Peters: What about you?


David James Walker: Not the hon. member for Timiskaming; I am referring to his friend the hon. member for Timmins beside him. The hon. member only tries to play.


Douglas Mason Fisher: You had better go back to your canoe.


David James Walker: You know, Mr. Chairman, on a matter as serious as this I would think hon. members, if they refuse to leave the hall, would at least be attentive. This interests at least the 2.5 million Canadians who are now in new homes as a result of the advent of the Diefenbaker government.


Murdo William Martin: May I speak to a point of order, Mr. Chairman? Will you inform the minister that we happen to be in the house and not in a hall?


Paul Raymond Martineau: I think the minister is probably aware of that.


David James Walker: I can think of one kind of house the hon. member should be in.


Paul Joseph James Martin: What is that?


David James Walker: I am not going to raise my voice again. There were 115,607 units completed in 1961. The total was slightly below the corresponding figure of 123,757 for 1960, a decline of 6.5 per cent. This year's completions brought the aggregate since 1957 to some 650,000. This means that one out of every six Canadian families is living in a new house built since 1957. My hon. friends can call that anything they like, but it is a magnificent record.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


David James Walker: What effect have these high rates of production had on the market for new housing? As I was able to tell you last September in introducing a measure to amend the National Housing Act, the answer is that there continues to be a satisfactory balance between production and consumption; and that in spite-I am glad to see my hon. friend is here-of the impact of a volume of new 26207-1-88
Supply-Public Works
house construction of this magnitude, output has kept pace with demand but has not been permitted to exceed it. At the end of 1961 the number of completed and unoccupied houses and duplexes in 36 major Canadian urban centres was 4,223, down 5.5 per cent from the figure for December, 1960.
Responsible in part for this encouraging state of affairs is government policy which, while not denying an N.H.A. mortgage loan to any eligible prospective borrower, has controlled the use of public funds for speculative purposes by the approval of C.M.H.C. loans to merchant builders only when the houses for which they are intended have been pre-sold to satisfactory purchasers. As my hon. friends will appreciate, this really worked out well, as the figures must indicate.
Mortgage funds required to finance new National Housing Act residential construction were in substantially better supply during 1961, with life insurance and trust and loan companies continuing to meet the bulk of the need. Of particular interest was the spirited participation of trust companies, whose volume of N.H.A. lending, in terms of dwelling units financed, was almost three times that of their previous record year in 1958, also during the regime of the Diefenbaker government.
Nevertheless, in the virtual absence of loans from the chartered banks the flow of N.H.A. mortgage money was not wholly adequate, and it was supplemented as required by public funds in the form of residual loans by Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation, for which there was a steady demand throughout the year. As hon. members are aware, it has always been our policy to encourage a maximum investment on the part of approved lenders in national housing mortgage loans. Consistent with this policy it has been necessary at the same time to maintain the lowest possible interest rate so that borrowers do not find themselves confronted by unnecessarily excessive costs for the money they have obtained.
I respectfully submit that both these objectives have been attained. Throughout 1961 the N.H.A. interest rate was at a level sufficiently high to be attractive to the approved lenders, but when a continuing flow of new funds seemed assured, at least for the foreseeable future, and the borrowing rate of the government had decreased slightly, it appeared reasonable that the N.H.A. interest rate should be reduced. This action was taken on November 6, 1961 and at the same time interest rates on loans for limited dividend housing, for municipal sewage treatment projects, and for university residences were also lowered.
It is interesting to note that during the year 1961 life insurance, trust and loan companies

Supply-Public Works
were responsible for loans aggregating $452 million, or 62 per cent of total commitments. This figure compares with $232.2 million or 59 per cent of total commitments in 1960. In addition, central mortgage made $271.3 million available from public funds, compared with $161.1 million in 1960. That is a great participation for the crown corporation, $271.3 million, and in all some 64,000 new dwelling units were financed under the N.H.A. Act in 1961. Of these about 63,000 were built with mortgage loans, 38,500 by approved lenders and 24,500 by the corporation. Federal-provincial partnership arrangements accounted for the balance. In 1960 only 37,000 units were financed under the act, just one half of last year's volume.
It is readily apparent that the physical product of the N.H.A. mortgage loans must be, and is, highly significant in terms of employment in the building trades. You may recall that last fall I said each new dwelling unit financed under the N.H.A.-and this is so important, and has been so important in the last five years, in getting Canada out of the recession-involves an average of two and a half man years of employment, on and off site. On this basis N.H.A. lending in 1961 was responsible for more than 160,000 man years of employment, and of these, federal direct lending for more than 61,500 man years.
I believe, Mr. Chairman, you will agree this is a contribution in which we can all justly take pride and satisfaction. Of the total number of housing units built, if we take a rough figure of 125,000 with two and a half man years for each of them, you can see we have an astonishing number of men getting employment in our housing industry. I might add that not content with merely adding to the central mortgage employment opportunities, I and the officials of central mortgage are working closely with my colleague the Minister of Labour to devise new ways and means of attaining an even higher rate of employment in the building industry, particularly in the winter months.
I have told the story of the N.H.A. mortgage lending in 1961 in some detail, and I should now like to make just a brief reference to conventional loans. I am informed that conventional mortgage lending on new housing by the lending institutions was less in 1961 than in the previous year, when loans were approved for 42,000 dwelling units, amounting to $307 million. However, there was a substantial increase in conventional mortgage loans by these lenders on existing dwellings and on non-residential property, with the dollar value rising to $600 million from $484 million in 1960.
A few minutes ago I referred to our unfailing concern with housing for lower income

families and for elderly persons. This concern was again translated into positive action on several fronts in 1961. For example, some 3,300 units of rental accommodation were financed under the limited dividend provisions of the N.H.A., more than double the number approved in the previous year. Of these, about 2,700 were for lower income families and approximately 600 for our senior citizens. All the activity in these sectors took place in British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba and Ontario.
In 1961 production of limited dividend rental accommodation brought the aggregate since mid-1957 to more than 18,600 dwelling units and the total loans to an excess of $143 million. I believe you will agree, Mr. Chairman, that this constitutes a satisfying achievement, not merely in terms of numbers but in the knowledge that thousands of Canadian families, husbands, wives and their fine children, and many elderly persons, have been assisted in their search for improved living accommodation, and this after all is the primary consideration and the raison d'etre of the Diefenbaker government.
Nor must we forget the assistance that has also been afforded to borrowers under the act as a result of amendments approved in 1960, when the ratio of loan to lending value was increased to provide higher loans and lower down payments. The maximum N.H.A. loan by regulation was raised and the permissive repayment period was extended, but even that is not the full story. In partnership with the provincial governments we were again active in the field of public housing and in the realm of urban redevelopment, and we are very, very happy to have Ontario taking such an active interest in the public housing program and very happy to have the assistance which their new program promises. In 1961 according to preliminary statistics-and here I should again stress that few of the 1961 figures I am able to provide today are final-[DOT] the construction of more than 900 dwelling units was approved, and the federal share of public housing expenditures totalled nearly $8 million. This brought to almost 4,000 units the number approved since mid-1957, and the total federal share of expenditures in this respect to more than $54.5 million.
Under similar arrangements the development of 855 building lots for sale to home owners was approved during the year, bringing the total number to more than 4,500 since 1957, and the federal share of expenditures required to develop the lots has exceeded $13 million in the same period. Federal contributions toward redevelopment of blighted areas in our cities totalled more than $5 million in 1961. This figure represents federal grants,

less one half of the estimated recovery from the disposal of the cleared lands.
In 1961 grants, which included one of more than $3.6 million to the city of Winnipeg and one in excess of $1 million to the city of Montreal, brought federal contributions since 1957 for these purposes to more than $18 million. I should also mention that grants amounting to some $600,000 have been made since 1957 to municipalities for urban renewal studies, and most hon. members who represent urban districts must know that their particular localities have benefited as a result of this. Of course these urban renewal studies are intended to identify substandard areas and to form proposals for the solution of problems attributable to blight.
I should now like to review briefly two other highly successful provisions of the National Housing Act, two new concepts that were added, hon. members will recall, late in 1960. The first of these has to do with loans for municipal sewage disposal projects. By the way, this is an idea that I received from the backbenchers on the government side, from whom I have obtained so many other ideas on many other subjects.
The primary purpose of this program is, of course, to assist in resolving the problems of water and soil pollution, which had reached alarming proportions in many parts of Canada. Accordingly the government introduced, and parliament approved, legislation providing loans of up to two thirds of the cost of a project; and to encourage municipalities to tackle the job without delay, 25 per cent of the loan and of the interest paid or accrued will be forgiven if the project is completed on or before March 31, 1963, or on that proportion of the project which is completed by that date.
Last year, the first year of operation, no less than 115 municipalities in all our ten provinces obtained 145 loans in an amount of more than $40 million to assist them in the construction or extension of trunk sewage systems or sewage treatment plants. At the year end there were also on hand some 245 preliminary inquiries-think of that-representing a loan potential of an additional $80.6 million.
I am sure the hon. member for St. Denis must regret that the Postmaster General is out of the chamber for a few moments. As another indication of the response to the legislation, loans were made to 78 communities-we will be glad to have the hon. member back-of less than 5,000 population, and of these 63 have less than 2,000 population and 50 less than 1,000. In most of these smaller communities-
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Mr. Deschalelels:: If you were more interesting you would not have an empty chamber.


David James Walker: I count a total of nine Liberal members. The hon. member is quite right in drawing my attention to that matter.


Paul Joseph James Martin: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, that is an improper observation, and if the minister will look and see how few members there are on the government side will be ashamed to be a member of this ministry.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


David James Walker: I am very happy to say that there are a goodly number of government representatives, and I stress, although it may not be too polite to mention it, that there are less than 11 members in the Liberal opposition and at the present time there are two members of the N.D.P., whereas there are-


Paul Joseph James Martin: Twenty two Conservative members.


David James Walker: -whereas I count 80 Conservative members.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


David James Walker: Mr. Chairman, when I was so rudely interrupted by the hon. member-


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: On a point of order-


Murdo William Martin: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order-


Paul Raymond Martineau: Order. I recognize the hon. member for Maisonneuve-Rosemont on a point of order.


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Mr. Chairman, the minister just said there were 80 members on the government side. There are not more than 40.


Paul Raymond Martineau: Order. I think the scoreboard has been sufficiently discussed, and perhaps it would help in making progress in the business before the committee if the minister would continue his statement.


Mr. Valade:: On a question of privilege-


Murdo William Martin: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, this is not a trivial matter. The Minister of Public Works-


Paul Raymond Martineau: Order. The hon. member for St. Mary had risen on a question of privilege.


Georges-J. Valade: Mr. Chairman, I rise on a question of privilege because as a member of this house I was attacked by the words of the hon. member for Maisonneuve-Rosemont. I am a member of the Canada-United States interparliamentary committee, which comprises about 40 members. I also sit in the House of Commons-

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Paul Raymond Martineau: Order. I think this is not strictly a question of privilege. The situation is that we have a quorum of hon. members at the moment. The minister has the floor, and I think if he will continue with the subject upon which he has embarked we will make some progress.


Paul Joseph James Martin: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, the minister has made a statement with regard to the number of hon. members in the chamber-


An hon. Member:: What point of order is that?


Paul Joseph James Martin: -and if Your Honour will examine the rules and procedures of this house it will be found that the only person who can properly identify the number of members in the house at any one time is the Clerk, speaking on behalf of the presiding officer. The Minister of Public Works said there were 80 Conservative members in this chamber. That is not a fact. In view of this I suggest that the only proper way to regulate this matter is for you, sir, to indicate to us whether or not there are 80 Conservative members in the chamber at the present time.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Paul Raymond Martineau: Order. The hon. member has made an explanation to this committee, which explanation will be taken into account, as it has to be, of course. However, the concern of the Chair is to proceed with the business. I think there has been sufficient discussion on the presence of hon. members in this chamber. As I said before, the Chair is only interested in there being a quorum. We have that quorum; therefore I would ask the co-operation of hon. members in allowing the minister to continue.


Paul Joseph James Martin: There are fewer Tory members now.


David James Walker: In all fairness, Mr. Chairman, I must say that when the hon. member for Essex East got to his feet it is true that several of our members left the chamber. Of course that is more habit than anything else; you cannot blame them for that. As another indication of the response to the legislation-


Lionel Chevrier: The minister is having some trouble with his statement.


David James Walker: I will have a little chat with the hon. member for Laurier afterward.


Paul Raymond Martineau: Order. I am afraid the minister has now exhausted his time and unless there is unanimous consent-


Some hon. Members:: Carry on.
[Mr. Valade.l


Paul Raymond Martineau: I take it that the committee gives unanimous consent to the minister continuing.


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: He is so funny; go ahead.


David James Walker: I am glad to have you back. Were you in Bermuda? You are looking well. As another indication of the response to the legislation, loans were made to 78 communities of less than 5,000 population, and of these 63 have less than 2,000 population and 50 less than 1,000. In most of these smaller communities sewage systems are being provided where they did not exist before and this has also, in many instances, encouraged the installation of public water systems to replace individual wells.
The committee will be glad to know that there was also a most favourable acceptance of N.H.A. loans to universities to assist in the construction of dormitory accommodation for students. Loans in an aggregate amount of more than $20 million were made to 22 universities and colleges for residences to house some 4,300 students. Preliminary applications had also been received at the end of the year from 11 universities which, if approved, could result in loans amounting to $16.7 million that would help to finance accommodation for an additional 4,000 students.
During 1961, too, as hon. members are aware, Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation undertook at the government's request to encourage the development of a secondary market for N.H.A. insured first mortgages by offering for sale a part of the portfolio it had acquired as a result of extensive lending operations since 1957. Indicating a growing interest in N.H.A. mortgages as investments, the corporation sold $41 million of its loans to investment dealers, banks and life insurance and trust and loan companies. Proceeds of sales are used to retire corporation debentures held by the federal government. Many of the loans were resold by the purchasers to pension funds, which had not previously included mortgage investments in their portfolios. This is, of course, only a beginning, but we are confident that a market of this kind, stimulated by periodic sales by C.M.H.C., will create not only a more regular but actually a larger demand for N.H.A. mortgages.
As I mentioned last September, we are also appreciative of the responsibilities imposed upon us by the research provisions of the National Housing Act in directing the search for a more attractive, more utilitarian house for Canadian families at a lower cost. I shall not take time to describe in detail the progress being made on this front, except to say that when

I had the privilege last October of taking part in the formal inauguration of field tests of the mark III experimental house at Rockcliffe I was highly impressed by this and other tasks being undertaken by the National House Builders Association and other groups and individuals with financial assistance by the federal government.
In spite of this record of achievement, the highlights of which I have touched upon today, we are still aware that we can learn from experience, that we can benefit from the knowledge of others. We know we can benefit, too, from the knowledge and criticism of hon. members of this committee, including the hon. member for Nipissing. It is for these reasons that we watch closely at all times housing developments in the United States; that we have, indeed, established and are maintaining a close liaison with our contemporaries in that country. But perhaps the older cultures have even more lessons for us, and I counted it a privilege last autumn when I was able to make an all too brief visit to Europe for the purpose of looking into the house construction and financing techniques being used in some countries over there. Later, as hon. members know, I attended an important conference in southeast Asia, and again I was able to see in another dimension the latest developments in the housing field.
At my suggestion the president of Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation and three of his senior officials subsequently undertook a more detailed examination of housing developments in England, Scotland, Sweden and Holland. The primary purpose of the study by Dr. Bates and his party was to inquire into the methods of producing housing in those countries and examine the ways in which housing is financed and subsidized.
I have reached the end of my observations on the housing situation in 1961 and in the years since 1957. It may be asked-and it is a proper question-what of the immediate future? What is 1962 likely to have in store for us? I shall not be so rash as to hazard a precise estimate of the number of new housing starts; there are too many imponderables, too many world uncertainties, too many guesses entailed. However, I will say that if only because of the substantial carry-over from 1961, amounting to some 74,000 units, we are confident of another substantial volume of housing investment in 1962. Furthermore, should the number of starts also show an increase over 1961, the investment increment would naturally be of even greater magnitude.
That summarizes the picture of housing as we see it at the present time.
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Mr. Garland:: I wonder if the minister would permit a question before he leaves the subject of housing. Could he say, of the total number of starts in 1961, how many were single dwellings?


David James Walker: I shall be glad to find that out for the hon. gentleman. I will have the figures available when we are going over the items. I shall be very pleased to do that.
Now may I discuss briefly some features of the departmental activities during 1961-62, and outline certain points of interest in our plans for the coming fiscal year. The total appropriation which is requested in the 196263 public works estimates is $217,451,000. Of the total amount requested, $200,226,000 is for the activities of the department as such. The remainder consists of $660,000 required by Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation and $16,565,000 for the national capital commission. The accounts for the present fiscal year are, as hon. members are aware, still active; and while it is not possible at this time to give precise figures on expenditures, I expect the usual high percentage of the funds appropriated will be spent. Usually the estimates of the Department of Public Works come down in the committee much later than this.
I should like now to report on the budding construction activities of the department. In order to provide needed accommodation for government services across Canada, construction was begun on a number of important buildings during the year. These included a building for the Queen's printer in Halifax, Nova Scotia, $248,700; a public building in Kentville, Nova Scotia, $368,936; in Montreal, Quebec, a building for the Department of Veterans Affairs, $1,063,400; as well as a building for the western zone office of the unemployment insurance commission, $455,000; St. Hyacinthe, Quebec, a public building valued at $440,758; in Ottawa, Ontario, alterations and improvements valued at $5,088,000 were begun on the west block as well as a computer centre for the taxation division of the Department of National Revenue, $1,738,488; in Etobicoke, Ontario, a new public building, $179,429; Lacombe, Alberta, a public building, $147,794; in Prince Rupert, British Columbia, a new public building, $703,524 and in Vancouver, British Columbia, a building to house the unemployment insurance commission and postal station "C", $729,000.
In addition to these projects begun during the year, construction continued on other major projects such as additions to public buildings in Halifax, Nova Scotia, and Moncton, New Brunswick, and the new postal terminal in Quebec city. Here in Ottawa I can
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point to the completion of the new building for the Post Office Department at Confederation Heights and continuing work on the new building for the headquarters staff of the Department of National Health and Welfare in Tunney's pasture. In London, Ontario, there was a new postal terminal; in Toronto the Arthur Meighen building was opened; in Winnipeg the new unemployment insurance building was completed; and in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan and Penticton, British Columbia, new public buildings were completed.
During the year the department continued to assist the winter works program through the construction of standard post office buildings in smaller communities across Canada. I will not bother to give a list of these locations, since they have already appeared in Hansard on February 9 of this year.
Turning now to the harbours and rivers work, I should like to draw the attention of the committee to the more noteworthy of the many projects currently in progress. For example, in St. John's, Newfoundland, work continued on the complete reconstruction of one of North America's oldest harbours. At Baie Comeau, along the province of Quebec's flourishing north shore, the department, in conjunction with private interests and the provincial government, is undertaking a major expansion of harbour facilities. Important harbour improvements are also under way at Yarmouth, Nova Scotia, and Cornwall, Oshawa and Port Credit, Ontario. In Toronto harbour, work on the extention to the shipping channel and for the provision of additional seaway berthage continued, and these facilities are expected to be available in time for the 1963 shipping season. Work also continued during the year at the lakehead on the construction of new terminal facilities capable of accommodating ocean going vessels. At Nanaimo, British Columbia and Grand Manan, New Brunswick, important wharf projects were begun.
Before dealing with the trans-Canada highway I will continue to review what has been accomplished with respect to harbour improvements and repairs. During the current year major harbour improvement and repair projects were completed at Hamilton, Ontario and continued at Wood Islands, Prince Edward Island, and Pointe au Pere, Quebec and at Pictou, Nova Scotia. A breakwater extension in the St. John area at Negro Town point in New Brunswick and the reconstruction of the assembly wharf at Port Alberni, British Columbia, were completed. Work also continued on the million dollar water supply system to serve the various federal communities in the vicinity of Fort Churchill.


And now a word about the trans-Canada highway. As hon. members know, the province of Quebec became a party to the trans-Canada highway agreement on October 27, 1960. To my friend the hon. member for Levis may I say that we welcome the inclusion of that province. All ten provinces now participate in this grand design.
Under the agreement with the provinces, provision is made for federal participation in the construction of the highway across each of the ten provinces. The total value of the work approved to date is estimated at $689,823,000, of which Canada's share is estimated at approximately $400 million. Payments during the present fiscal year to date approximate $31 million. The total mileage of the highway, exclusive of 140 miles through the national parks, totals 4,719 miles, of which 2,995 miles have been completed under the agreement. Adding some 1,000 miles of the highway which were paved prior to the passing of the act, nearly 4,000 miles of the highway now have a paved surface. The sections of the highway through the provinces of Prince Edward Island, Saskatchewan, Manitoba and Alberta are practically completed, and the remaining provinces are making every effort to complete the highway before December 31, 1963, although completion is doubtful in Newfoundland and Quebec.
The construction of the sections of the highway through the national parks is a federal responsibility. Expenditures on this account to date total $68,247,000, of which $5,875,000 covers expenditures during the present fiscal year.


Maurice Bourget: I did not hear what the figure of $68,247,000 related to.


David James Walker: That relates to national parks, which are a federal responsibility. It is expected that all major work, with the exception of additional snow sheds in the Glacier park and final course paving in the Terra Nova, Glacier and Revelstoke parks will be completed before September of this year. The work with respect to Glacier park is a tremendous undertaking and far more difficult than we anticipated. The Glacier and Revelstoke national parks section is part of the Rogers pass route through the Rocky mountains, and is the last major gap in the whole trans-Canada route. It is expected to be declared officially open this fall, which means that for the first time it will be possible to travel the whole trans-Canada route from coast to coast. This will be properly celebrated by the presence of the Prime Minister, who will officially open the trans-Canada highway in Rogers pass, British Columbia, in September of this year. He will be joined there by all ten provincial premiers and by

as many hon. members of the government as are able to attend. I trust that if there are any members of the opposition parties left at that time, as many as possible will attend.
I come now to the department's program for 1962-63. Hon. members will note that the number of large new items included in the estimates indicates that activities of the department will continue at a high level in the months to come.
I should like first of all to consider some of the major projects planned for the Ottawa area. At the Confederation Heights development on Riverside drive, plans are being prepared for two new buildings to house three government departments, one for the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources and the Department of Forestry and the other for the Department of Transport. Both will be imposing structures and will complement the over-all scheme of government buildings in the area. Construction is expected to start during the coming year. If any hon. members have a spare moment I urge that they visit Confederation Heights and examine the magnificent development that has taken place there in the last year or two.
Of special interest, I think, is the fact that in the new northern affairs and national resources building, the use of Eskimo art for decorative purposes will be employed and so reflect its close association with the north and northern development. The exterior of the forestry wing will conform to the northern affairs building, but the interior will feature a maximum use of Canadian wood materials.
The transport building will be an imposing high-rise edifice providing the focal point of the whole development. With the completion of these two buildings, along with the new proposed building to house the head office of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, construction in Confederation Heights will be complete. There will remain only the landscaping then, to transform the area into one of the finest collection of government administration buildings to be found in any capital in the world.
Work will also begin this summer on Canada's new national library and archives, which is to be erected on the site of the No. 1 temporary building. Tenders for the building, including demolition of No. 1 temporary building, are to be called this summer to enable work to begin in July, at which time the taxation branch offices in No. 1 temporary building will have been moved to new quarters at Tunney's pasture. Excavation work will begin immediately and is scheduled for completion sometime in 1963, when the actual
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construction will begin. The completed building will be open to the public by 1967, in time for Canada's centennial celebrations. Also due to get under way this year is the site development for the mines branch of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys on the Corktown road location.
I am certain that hon. members are interested in learning of the building construction projects scheduled by the department for other parts of the country. I shall therefore give a brief resume of some of the major projects. They are:
Newfoundland: Additions and alterations are to be made to the public building at Corner Brook.
Nova Scotia: New public buildings will be erected at Shelburne, Springhill and Sydney Mines as well as new unemployment insurance commission headquarters in Halifax.
New Brunswick: New buildings are planned at Edmundston and Sussex.
Quebec: Two new postal buildings and an unemployment insurance commission zone office will be built in Montreal, while federal buildings are scheduled for Grand'Mere, Ste. Genevieve de Pierrefonds and Ste. Anne de la Pocatiere.
Ontario: Public buildings are planned for Arnprior, Brockville, Fort William, Georgetown, Midland, Strathroy, Sudbury and Waterloo.
Manitoba: New buildings will be constructed at Boissevain and Fort Garry.
Saskatchewan: New public buildings at Shellbrook and Duck Lake.
Alberta: New federal buildings will be constructed at Calgary and High Prairie.
British Columbia: New buildings will be constructed at Burns Lake, North Surrey and a building in Vancouver to accommodate unemployment insurance commission offices and postal station "C" will be completed.
Yukon and Northwest Territories: A public building is planned for Hay River.
It is anticipated that the program of erecting standard post offices in the smaller centres across Canada as an aid to winter work will be continued next winter. Present plans call for a program roughly the same size as undertaken this winter.
Considering plans for harbours and rivers during the 1962-63 fiscal year, the department expects to continue with work currently under way at a number of major Canadian ports, as well as to make a start on projects which, when completed, will be of great importance to the Canadian economy as a whole. The extensive harbour improvements at St. John's, Newfoundland, will be continued, as will the harbour improvement projects at Baie Comeau and Pointe au Pere, Quebec.

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In Toronto harbour the ship channel extension will be completed and major dredging projects will be continued. Major work including dredging will be undertaken in the Hamilton harbour. The new terminal facilities at the lakehead will be completed and placed in service later this summer. This means that Canada's most inland port will be one of the most modem in the world for handling package freight cargo.
Some of the other major projects to be undertaken during the coming fiscal year are as follows:
Newfoundland: The dredging of a number of high spots and the widening of the channel at Catalina will be undertaken. Major wharf reconstruction and extension work is slated for Old Perlican and Marystown. A new 100-foot long L-shaped wharf will be constructed at Piccadilly. Wharf construction and extension work will be undertaken at Ship Cove to provide improved facilities.
Nova Scotia: A new breakwater wharf is planned for Chapel cove. The existing breakwater at Freeport will be extended some 600 feet. At Pinkney Point a new breakwater will be constructed while at Walton the existing wharf will be replaced. It is also expected that reconstruction of pier "C" at Pictou will be completed during the year. Harbour improvements are planned for Inverness in Cape Breton.
Price Edward Island: A U-shaped breakwater landing will be constructed at Egmont bay, while extensive harbour improvements will be undertaken at Summerside and Al-berton.
New Brunswick: Major harbour improvement projects are scheduled for Botsford, Lameque, and Malloch Beach. In Saint John extensive dredging and a further breakwater extension are planned.
Quebec: At Havre Aubert, large dredging operations will be continued and a start will be made on the construction of a new deep water wharf. Wharf reconstruction will begin at Riviere au Tonnerre and Les Eboule-ments. At Matane and Portneuf large projects are contemplated.
Ontario: Large new harbour projects are scheduled to provide improved facilities at Goderich, Leamington, Port Credit and Sarnia.
Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Northwest Territories:	New wharf facilities will be
undertaken at Barron river, Jan lake and Pelican Narrows as well as major reconstruction of the wharf at Cambridge bay.
British Columbia: A new boat harbour to accommodate a large number of fishing boats is being planned for Nanaimo. An important new ferry terminal is being planned at Prince Rupert to accommodate the proposed ferry

which will operate between Prince Rupert, B.C. and several points along the Alaskan panhandle.
In the field of bridge construction, I am pleased to report good progress on a number of projects. The bridge between Campobello island, N.B., and Lubec, Maine, will be completed and open to traffic in the coming year. Also scheduled for completion this year is the new low level bridge over the Burlington canal.


An hon. Member:: Hear, hear.


David James Walker: Thank you. The governments of Canada, Ontario and Quebec have agreed on a design for the new $12 million Mac-donald-Cartier bridge between Ottawa and Hull. In this connection, a girder design with no superstructure above the deck railings was selected. It is anticipated that plans for this bridge will be completed in time for tenders to be called by midsummer to enable work to begin this year.
As the federal government's central construction agency, the Department of Public Works continues to assume responsibility for the construction of an ever increasing number of projects on behalf of and financed by other government departments. For instance, during the current fiscal year the department will be spending approximately $36 million on projects financed in the estimates of other departments. At the present time it would seem that the department's activities in this field will be considerably more extensive during 1962-1963. In fact the total amount of money provided by other departments for projects which will be carried out by the Department of Public Works is in the neighbourhood of some $56 million. Much of this appropriation is for the continuation of works already under way, but there are also many new items.
In particular, we will be doing a great deal more work for the penitentiaries branch of the Department of Justice, which has provided over $9 million for construction, during 1962-63, for large institutions in Nova Scotia, Quebec, British Columbia, Alberta and Ontario as well as for smaller ones in Manitoba and Saskatchewan. Hon. members will be interested in some of the larger items. I will not take the time at the moment to include these but I shall be happy to answer any questions. At this time I should like to thank the ministers in charge of the various departments for whom the Department of Public Works acts as the construction agency for their wonderful co-operation during the current fiscal year.
I have but touched on the highlights of the activities of my department for the coming fiscal year. Hon. members may have

many questions they will wish to ask about specific items in which they are especially interested. I will try at this time or at least during the debate to answer them to the best of my knowledge and ability. (Translation):


Maurice Bourget: Mr. Chairman, I think we have seen this afternoon further evidence of the confusion that exists among the government members, when all the members of the committee noticed that the Deputy Chairman of the house, who was occupying your seat, did not exactly know where to go.
He first called the supplementary estimates of the Department of Forestry whereas there had been an agreement, so I gathered, to the effect that the main estimates of the Department of Public Works would be examined. (Text):


The Deputy Chairman:: I wonder whether the hon. member is following the right procedure in commenting on the order of business of the house. As I understand it, that is something over which neither the Chair nor the opposition have any control. It is a matter for decision by the government. I would ask his co-operation in dealing with the estimates.


Maurice Bourget: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It vas such a nice example that I could not prevent myself from saying a few words about it.
(Translation):
And now, with regard to the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Walker), as we say, he is a hopeless case. It seems that he will never mend his ways; he starts on the wrong foot, he antagonizes everybody.
I do not want to teach him a lesson, but it seems to me that, being a minister of the crown, he should set an example to the members, so that we may be able to discuss intelligently the important estimates he is submitting to the house. As I said previously, his case is hopeless and I think, Mr. Chairman, that we will ask you to pray for him.
In any case, I wish to thank him for the information he has just given us on the various activities of his department last year. He has explained to us, among other things, the projects that the department intends to carry out during the next fiscal year.
Mr. Chairman, I will not deal this afternoon with matters that come under Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation. I will leave to my colleague, the hon. member for Nipissing (Mr. Garland), the task of dealing with that section of the activities of the public works department, as I will leave it to my colleagues from Ottawa and the region to deal with matters concerning the national capital commission.
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I wish to add that I regret the absence of the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Public Works, the hon. member for Quebec East (Mr. Tasse), who has been away since the unfortunate accident that happened to him early last fall. On behalf of all the members of this house, I express to him our best wishes for a speedy recovery and return to the house.
As usual, I will limit my remarks to a few important points in the administration of the department, but I might go into details later as we proceed with the study of the various items.
In the past, in order to better evaluate the efficiency of the department, I used to prepare an analysis with the help of a chart showing the exact percentage of the amounts spent in each branch of the department.
Unfortunately, as, this year again, these items are examined before the Minister of Finance (Mr. Fleming) makes his budget speech, I was unable to make a thorough study of the situation, because we lack the information I just mentioned, which is contained in the budget papers tabled by the Minister of Finance before he makes his budget speech.
Mr. Chairman, these are perhaps the last general estimates of the Department of Public Works which will be discussed before the next election. I therefore believe it might be well to review briefly this department's activities since June 1958.
The minister said earlier today that the present government had taken giant forward steps. Well, I would suggest to him that, as far as the activities of the Department of Public Works are concerned, those giant steps were backward steps, and here is the proof.
For the year 1958-59, the department's expenses were $220 million; in 1959-60, they had gone down to $203.8 million. In 1960-61, we were asked to vote the amount of $195.9 million, which represented a decrease of $25 million in the general estimates of that year compared with those of the previous year. As a matter of fact, I had the opportunity in July 1960, of stating that those estimates of $195.9 million for the fiscal year 1960-61 were only $7.9 million higher than those voted in the last year of the Liberal administration, that is 1956-57, not considering, of course, expenses for the trans-Canada highway which, as everybody knows, are statutory expenditures which increase or decrease according to the work carried out by each of the provinces.

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Georges-J. Valade: Your expenditures were extravagant.


Maurice Bourget: I beg your pardon?


Georges-J. Valade: Your expenditures were extravagant.


Maurice Bourget: Mr. Chairman, if the hon.
member intends to interrupt me or to make some remarks, I would suggest that he sit down, as he will then have all the time he needs to make a speech. If he has some intelligent remarks or suggestions to make, I would advise him to go back to his seat.


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Hear, hear.


Georges-J. Valade: I will make many suggestions.


Maurice Bourget: In 1961-62, disregarding
expenditures on the trans-Canada highway we voted, under the general estimates, an amount of $166,548,000 which is $2,300,000 more than the amount voted the year before.
On the other hand, if we deduct from that amount the sum of $2,700,000, that is the increase on account of the national capital commission, which was formerly under the privy council, we find that the appropriations for the Department of Public Works had been reduced by $400,000.
Now, those constant annual decreases in the public works estimates make it very clear that this government soon forgot its promises, and more particularly that famous public works policy, of which we had heard so much during the 1958 election.
Moreover, the large reserve of public works-
(Text):


David James Walker: May I ask the hon. member a question?


Maurice Bourget: Yes.


David James Walker: Would the hon. member admit that during the ten years up to 1957 the Liberal government's average expenditure in public works was less than $90 million as against our average of $215 million?


Maurice Bourget: I am going to give a very good answer to the minister. I am glad he asked me the question, because before coming down to this chamber I picked up the figures. I think I mentioned them last year during the discussion of the public works estimates. Here are the figures, Mr. Chairman, and I challenge the minister to deny

them. The estimates for the Department of Public Works for the year 1946-47 were $37.2 million. Ten years after that, in 195657, under a Liberal government the estimates of the Department of Public Works were $147.5 million, an increase of $110 million. I have not calculated the percentage, but the minister will see that we had a progressive administration during that time which increased the amount of work being given to the people of Canada every year. This is clearly shown, and I hope the minister and every other member of this house can see that, especially when you consider the huge increase in the expenditures during the ten years from $37.2 million to $147.5 million.
(Translation):
Mr. Chairman, the large reserve of public projects-as I was saying earlier when the minister interrupted me-which could be undertaken at a moment's notice if necessary, as stated in the house on June 6, 1958, by the predecessor of the present minister, was just another vision of the Conservative party, a vision which existed only in the mind of its members.
Yet, as you know Mr. Chairman, statistics prove that if there ever was in Canada a period when we should have undertaken public works to help our thousands of unemployed, it was surely since the Conservative government came into power, because the number of unemployed is twice as high as it was when the Liberal government left office.


Mr. Rompre:: Did Mr. Lesage not settle that matter?


Maurice Bourget: I beg your pardon?


Aristide Stanislas Joseph Rompré: Mr. Lesage was supposed to settle that.


Maurice Bourget: You should talk. When your government was in power in the province of Quebec, what was the contribution of the Union Nationale-


Mr. Denis:: Nothing, absolutely nothing.


Maurice Bourget: -with regard to works designed to reduce unemployment?


Azellus Denis: Nothing at all.


Maurice Bourget: You should be ashamed. You should not raise that question; you should be ashamed because you never said a single word.


Mr. Pigeon:: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. The hon. member does not know that heavy damage has been caused by thunder in the province of Quebec.

(Text):


Maurice Bourget: That is not a point of order. The hon. member is trying to make a speech. Get up and make a speech.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: I will make a speech that will be difficult for you to answer.


Gordon Campbell Chown: Order. I should like to remind the committee that we are dealing with estimates of the Department of Public Works, and matters relating to unemployment and other subjects are not relevant.


Maurice Bourget: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. You noticed that I was very good until somebody else interrupted. As a matter of fact, I did not interrupt the minister when he spoke and I would hope the same kind of treatment will be given to me. Thank you for the word.
(Translation):
Mr. Chairman, I should like to analyse the estimates for the next fiscal year, that is for 1962-63.
What strikes me first is that again this year there is a decrease of $463,343 in the general estimates we are asked to vote. If we subtract from the amount of $167,434,000 the $16.5 million that are earmarked for the national capital commission, which has been under the Department of Public Works for the past two years only, the reduction is greater still.
On the other hand, if we look at the estimates for the two main branches of the department, the one which looks after the construction and repair of public buildings and the harbours and rivers engineering branch, we notice that there is an increase of $1,618,000 in the first case whereas there is a decrease of $1,327,000 in the second. If we take a closer look at the estimates of the public building construction branch, we see that with the exception of Ottawa and the province of Ontario, there is a decrease in every province. As far as Quebec is concerned, for instance, there is a reduction of $166,000.
As for harbours and rivers, we find that there is also a decrease in five provinces, the largest, amounting to $3,255,000, being in Ontario. For the province of Quebec, the decrease is $786,000.
If, moreover, we examine the public building projects for the province of Quebec, for instance, which are shown at pages 339 and 340 of the estimates, we find that almost half of the projects to be carried out consist of nothing new, but are simply previous ones which are to be completed.
Supply

Public Works
As regards harbours and rivers, for the same province, we found the same thing, since a large portion of the items shown at pages 352 and 353 consist of projects to be completed or of retaining walls to be built, a thing which, as we know, does not require much preparation. It is obvious that the minister did not rack his brains to find new projects, for there are but few of them in the list of works recommended for the year 1962-63.
By the way, I want to point out that in the expenditures provided for the province of Quebec, there has been a decrease of $952,000 from the estimates of last year.
Again this year, we see in the list of projects for the province of Ontario, an amount of $1 million for the construction of an unemployment insurance building in Toronto.
I would point out to the committee that this is the fourth time an amount is provided for the construction of that building because back in 1959, we voted an amount of $400,000 for that purpose. I wonder how things are going with that project, in view of the fact that last year, to a question I asked in this house, the minister's parliamentary secretary answered that it could not be said when the plans and specifications for that building would be completed on account of changes that had been made.
Now I hope, Mr. Chairman, that in his reply the minister will be able to tell us if the plans have been completed and when tenders will be called. And should he be unable to give us that information, he should, in my opinion, delete that item from his estimates.
I also notice that among the work to be carried out in the province of Quebec, there is an item for the construction of a public building at a cost of $500,000. I understand this is a building to accommodate the unemployment insurance office in Quebec city. That is another proof of the inability of the minister to take a decision, or of the existing confusion in his department because that item has been included in the estimates in 1959 and in 1960. I wish-


Mr. Flynn:: There is also the post office.


Maurice Bourget: Right, let us talk about the post office. It has not been completed yet, even though you have been in office for five years. Let the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys (Mr. Flynn) look through the files of the public works department and he will find out that one year before the planning committee of Quebec and Quebec city

Supply-Public Works
had rejected the site that had been selected plans and specifications had already been made and we were ready to call for tenders.


An hon. Member:: The Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys is not aware of that.


Maurice Bourget: I also would like to remind the minister that he himself had announced that project during his visit to Quebec city in January 1960, that is two years ago. But all that was undertaken until now, was to demolish the old hospital. However, we may perhaps be comforted by the thought that tenders will soon be called for this project, if we can believe a statement made by the minister's parliamentary secretary to newspapermen in Quebec city.
I hope that the minister will not feel hurt if I tell him that he certainly shall not be arrested for speeding.
Now, I should like to talk briefly about the trans-Canada highway, that wonderful program developed by the Liberals and in which all Canadian provinces, Quebec included, are taking part.
I could hear just a few moments ago the minister stating with great oratory, that the official opening of this highway would take place during the fall.


An hon. Member:: It will not be long.


Maurice Bourget: Well, I hope that the man, responsible for the implementation of such a wonderful program will be invited, and I am referring to the Hon. Kobert Winters.


Georges-J. Valade: Are you for a joint program?


Maurice Bourget: If you have something to say, say it so as to be understood.


Georges-J. Valade: May I ask the hon. member a question?


Maurice Bourget: Surely.


Georges-J. Valade: Is the hon. member of the opinion that the trans-Canada highway comes under the joint program policy denounced by the Liberal government of the province of Quebec?


Azellus Denis: Certainly not. It agreed to it.


Maurice Bourget: I am glad that someone asks me this question. I am surprised that the hon. member would ask such a question. I am really surprised.


Georges-J. Valade: But answer the question.


Maurice Bourget: I am going to answer it-


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Go ahead.


An hon. Member:: Cheeky.


Maurice Bourget: -this way: When I, personally, asked for a vote on the question of the trans-Canada highway, about two or three years ago, how did you vote, if you do not agree to the joint program? You went under cover most of you-


An hon. Member:: They ran away.


Maurice Bourget: -you ran away, vanishing behind the curtains, going to your offices, because you did not have the courage to stand here and to make known to this house, and not only to the province of Quebec but to all your colleagues of the other provinces, what you thought of the joint programs.


Georges-J. Valade: Are you in favour of joint plans?


Maurice Bourget: There you are, complacently accepting what the government offers you, and then you go back to the province of Quebec and repeat that those bad Liberals have violated the autonomy of the province of Quebec-


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: That was true.


Maurice Bourget: -while you have been here for four and a half years with your own government, and you have not changed anything.


Georges-J. Valade: But are you in favour of joint plans?


Maurice Bourget: I did not get what the hon. member has just said. There is too much noise. I am quite willing to answer questions, mind you, because the answers are so easy, for the Conservatives not only have a past, they also have a present for which they must answer. And very often-


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: May I put a question to the hon. member for Levis?


Maurice Bourget: Mr. Chairman, I have no objection to answering questions since we are in committee, although it is not up to me to answer questions, but to the minister himself.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: This question concerns you.


Maurice Bourget: I will concede him another question; go ahead.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Is the hon. member for Levis aware of the joint plans of the minister of uniforms, the Hon. Bona Arsenault?


Maurice Bourget: The hon. who?


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: The Hon. Bona Arsenault, minister of uniforms.


Maurice Bourget: Mr. Chairman, I thought I had
answered that question, and I think the Leader of the Opposition clearly explained the position of our party about joint plans, but you did not do so on your side. If you are against them, just vote against the estimates we are going to discuss in a moment, or during the week, for the construction of the trans-Canada highway. You should have the courage of clearly expressing your views once and for all and not act Union Nationale in the province of Quebec and Conservative party in Ottawa. You cannot have it both ways.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: We are Canadians, we respect our racial origins.
(Text):


Paul Raymond Martineau: Order, order.
(Translation):


Maurice Bourget: I hope, Mr. Chairman, you will give-


Mr. Drouin:: Mr. Chairman, on a question of privilege and on a point of order at the same time. After what the hon. member for Levis has said, I would ask him to kindly refer to Hansard of the time, where he will see that the hon. member for Dorchester voted contrary to what he just mentioned.
I will add that on the occasion of a personal visit paid by the premier of the province of Quebec-
(Text):


Gordon Campbell Chown: Order. There is no point of order in the matter raised by the hon. member for Dorchester. It is rather a subject for debate or argument, and the hon. member can raise it at a later time in the committee if he so desires.


Maurice Bourget: I am very sorry, Mr. Chairman, for what happened, but it puts a little pep into the debate and I think all hon. members like a little pep once in a while. (Translation):


An hon. Member:: Answer.


Maurice Bourget: I have no objection and I am ready to reply to the remark of the hon. member for Dorchester (Mr. Drouin) but he must realize that he adds to the confusion as I said a few minutes ago, some stood behind the curtains, others in their offices.
Mr. Chairman, I was talking about the trans-Canada highway and I am coming back to it.
We know that, under the bill introduced in parliament in 1960, the period for the construction of this highway had been extended until December 31, 1963.
The other day in this house, I could hear the minister summing up the promises ful-
Supply-Public Works
filled by the Conservative government since June 1957.


David James Walker: Wonderful.


Maurice Bourget: The minister has undoubtedly forgotten in his list the numerous promises made by many of his colleagues about the trans-Canada highway, when they were in the opposition.
As a matter of fact, many of them, who now sit here as ministers-and the minister has only to check the official report to see if what I am saying is true-accused the former administration of niggardliness because it would not pay a larger share of the cost. They also blamed the former government for not undertaking a second trans-Canada highway, as well as sections of the north-south highway that was to be linked to it.
Mr. Chairman, the Conservative government has been in power for over four and a half years and absolutely nothing has been changed; the government has not increased in any way its share of the construction costs of that highway.
(Text):


Gordon Campbell Chown: Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member, but his time has expired. Does the committee give unanimous consent to the hon. member continuing?


Some hon. Members:: No.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
(Translation):


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: We would rather approve of his continuing to make inaccurate statements, Mr. Chairman.
(Text):


Gordon Campbell Chown: I take it that the committee gives unanimous consent to the hon. member continuing.


Some hon. Members:: No.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Maurice Bourget: I want to thank you, Mr. Chairman, and also the members of the committee for their generosity.
(Translation):


Azellus Denis: He should put that in his lunch-box.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Come and say that in Joliette.


Maurice Bourget: Mr. Chairman, I know what the judgment of the member for Joliette is worth and he can say what he likes.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: But I will not read from a prepared speech when I take the floor.


Maurice Bourget: It seems to me that the minister should have dealt with the trans-Canada highway when he recited the various promises fulfilled by his government. With regard
1388	HOUSE OF
Supply-Public Works
to the trans-Canada highway, he could have said "we swiftly forgot the promises made in that respect."
As I was saying a little while ago, the construction period has been extended to December 1963. I realize that in the case of two or three provinces, the highway may not be finished by that time for want of money, as it will probably be the case for Newfoundland, or on account of the difficulty of carrying out the work in some areas such as in British Columbia, or, as in the case of the province of Quebec, because the work started only last year.
However, I think it is time a federal-provincial conference should take place, before the construction of a second trans-Canada highway is discussed and that plans be worked out for the future.
We know that several provinces are working out road construction programs, to be implemented over a period of three, four and five years, and that it is necessary for them to know at once what the federal government intends to do about a second trans-Canada highway.	_
I hope the minister, in his reply, will give us more information than he has given us until now on this matter.
Another project on which I should like to draw the minister's attention, and about which, of course, he does not like to hear, is the one concerning the construction of a causeway in the Northumberland strait, to linV New Brunswick to Prince Edward Island.
In this year's estimates, there is provided an item of $50,000 for further study of that project.
We can see that in the last four years we have spent or we will have spent $750,000 for a study of that project, and that it has not yet been possible to get the slightest report about it.
Yet, according to the minister's predecessor, the study of that project was to be completed about April 1959. Those words of the minister of the time may be found on page 1933 of Hansard of July 4, 1958.
On several occasions since 1959 and even when the estimates of the Department of Public Works were before us, we have tried to find out from the minister whether that project was economically feasible.
I for one, on July 18, 1960, spoke at length on that subject after mentioning the number of surveys made by various departments of the federal government and firms of consulting engineers.
The minister told me that he could not give me a definite answer because he had
[Mr. Bourget.l

been informed, he said, by the national research council, that the results of the tests under way "would not be known until next fall," that is the fall of 1961.
Notwithstanding the minister's answer, it seems quite evident that from the surveys made and the time elapsed since they were undertaken, the government has now the necessary information and is in a position to tell this house and especially the people concerned whether that project is economically feasible or not.
The minister may try to use finesse and express his regret for not being able to give us a report, but everyone knows that he is trying to avoid, like the government, giving a definite answer in that regard.
In a newspaper article of December 7, 1961, we could read the following:
Prime Minister John Diefenbaker stated last night that the engineering studies made by the federal government concerning the Prince Edward Island metalled causeway proved that the project is apparently feasible from the point of view of the engineers.
And further on in the same article:
Mr. Diefenbaker informed his audience that another study must yet be undertaken in order to determine exactly what will be the effect of the spring ice conditions in the Northumberland strait which the nine-mile long causeway will cross.
On the other hand, we find on page 397 of Hansard for January 31, 1962, the following question put by the hon. member for North-umberland-Miramichi (Mr. McWilliam):
Have the studies into the Prince Edward Island causeway been completed to the point where such studies have demonstrated the feasibility of constructing such a causeway?
The minister answered in these terms:
No. The engineers are reasonably certain at this stage that some type of crossing can be constructed. However, studies into the designs for various types of crossings and into some of the engineering problems associated with them, all of which have a bearing on cost and feasibility, are still not completed.
Well, this shows again that the government is playing for time and especially that it wants to avoid having to make a decision before the next election.
I think that the people concerned, especially from Prince Edward Island and New Brunswick, will not ignore the fact that this is another one of those unfulfilled promises of the federal government.
The last point I should like to raise is in connection with the brief submitted recently by the Hull city council, in conjunction with

the industry and tourist commissioners of that city, in which they make a plea for the construction of federal buildings in Hull.
I do not want to infringe upon the field of my colleague, the devoted member for Hull (Mr. Caron), but I should like to read into Hansard an excerpt from this most interesting brief which I wholeheartedly support.
This quotation will be found on page 13 of the brief, and reads as follows:
A joint interest.
I quote:
The construction of federal buildings in Hull is wholly to the advantage of the federal authorities.
First, they recognize that the city of Hull is part of the national capital district and, therefore, that it must benefit from the developments of this district. These important construction projects are a practical way of contributing to the urban renewal and to the beautifying of the city. It is in the interest of Ottawa that its neighbour city, situated at its very gates, be as attractive as possible.
A certain balance should be struck in the federal decentralization policy of government services, because the extension on the Ottawa side will soon have reached the point of saturation. It would be well, at this time, to cast an eye on the Quebec side.
In that area, huge sites are still available in close proximity to the federal administration centre. Essential municipal services could be easily provided.
Incidentally, I find here the following remark:
The city of Ottawa is complaining at this time, about the cost of extending services to federal buildings, because they are so far away.
The federal government should retain a certain balance in the development of the two main partners in the national capital district, i.e. Hull and Ottawa.
According to Le Droit, the delegation which presented that brief was well received and was told that the government was very much interested in the matter. I hope that the Minister of Public Works will not just be satisfied with words of encouragement, but will quickly take action and see that further federal buildings are erected in the neighbour city of the federal capital. In this respect, the Liberal government set a good example by building the printing bureau, a splendid building which any city or town in Canada would gladly call its own.
Mr. Chairman, those are the few remarks I wanted to make. I am sorry to have exceeded the time generally awarded to a member when estimates are discussed, and I thank hon. members of the committee for permitting me to do so.
(Text):


William Arnold Peters: Mr. Chairman, in speaking on this item I should like to offer the minister a word of friendly advice. I watched the
Supply-Public Works
television broadcast the other night and was happy with it. I suggest the minister should not overdo this. The Minsiter of National Health and Welfare has announced that all positions are filled for the year at the Shakespearian theatre at Stratford. There appears to be no opening for another performer. I offer that as a word of caution. It does provide a bright moment in an otherwise dull afternoon but it should not be overdone.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Has the hon.
gentleman never heard of one of Shakespeare's characters named Falstaff?


William Arnold Peters: I am advised that all positions are filled at Stratford this year.
Although there is a reduction from last year in the estimates for this department it is still the large sum of $217 million. The government's activities in the housing field have produced some remarkable results not anticipated by private moneylenders. The Conservative government has gone into housing on a large scale without much regard to the needs of the people who require houses. They entered the field rather on the basis of lending money through a normal mortgage machine in order to maintain construction when unemployment was at high levels, and also with a view to meeting the social need for more housing.
Is it not necessary that some consideration be given to the type of housing we provide and the reasons for providing it? It must be remembered that mortgage funds are provided over a period of 20 years or longer. Even at an interest rate of 5 per cent a $20,000 home will cost $40,000. We are all aware that mortgage money cannot be borrowed even at that rate. At the expiration of the mortgage the amount paid is larger than the actual value of the home. Consideration should be given to the money invested in interest payments. Part of our national worth, our gross national product, is tied up in the housing we provide our citizens. It is not a total loss to the government or the country. We should have a new housing policy under which the government would reduce interest rates to a bare minimum.
Before this is done the government would have to reconsider the method of making loans through Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation. A system would have to be introduced under which the money would return to the corporation instead of to the treasury so it would be easier for the Canadian people and particularly members of parliament to know what amount was returned to the revolving fund at a given rate of interest.

Private Bills
The minister did not mention whether or not we are building the right kind of houses. Consideration should be given to this. People may be purchasing houses which, when they are paid for, they will not want.
Young families have difficulty obtaining suitable housing. A young factory worker or farmer faces his most difficult years when he begins working in his occupation. The difficulty is multiplied by the fact that in those years he will raise his family and have to meet the attendant increased responsibilities and expenses. In those years he will require more bedrooms and larger facilities than at any other period. When he has paid for his house in 20 or 25 years his children will have grown up and left home and in his old age he may be left with a white elephant instead of a comfortable cottage in which to spend his years of retirement.
I am not an architect but I feel the government could give consideration to what has been done by some municipalities in providing school buildings. I have visited schools in Toronto. Parts of the schools are portable and can be dismantled a room at a time to meet the fluctuating needs of the school children. Additions can be made to the schools when the need demands. The suburbs have fluctuating populations and there is not always a constant proportion of young people.
Perhaps houses could be built in a similar manner so that they could be expanded or contracted as the need of the family unit changed. Consideration should be given to this project.
May I call it five o'clock.



PRIVATE BILLS

[Stage Direction]
On the order:
Second reading of Bill SD-1, an act for the relief of Madeleine Fransoise Hankowski-Mr. McCleave.
Mr. R. J. McCleave (Halifax):: Mr. Speaker, if the house is agreeable I would ask that the first 36 bills standing in my name on today's order paper under the heading "Private Bills" which are all divorce bills be withdrawn from the order paper until next Thursday evening when I expect to be in a position to make a statement on this matter.


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member for Halifax requests the unanimous consent of the house to withdraw from the order paper until next Thursday divorce bills Nos. SD-1 to SD-36, inclusive, being items 1 to 36 respectively on today's order paper. Is it agreed?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Mr. Speaker:: They will reappear on the order paper for next Thursday.



THE MUTUAL LIFE ASSURANCE COMPANY OF CANADA

Mr. O. W. Weichel (Waterloo North) moved: the second reading of Bill No. S-3, respecting the Mutual Life Assurance Company of Canada.
He said: As the sponsor of this bill, Mr. Speaker, I wish to point out that The Mutual Life Assurance Company of Canada desires the power to use either the name "The Mutual Life Assurance Company of Canada" or "La Mutual Life, compagnie d'assurance du Canada" in the transaction of its business, the latter name to be used basically in connection with advertising, literature and policies issued in the French language.
The company was originally incorporated as an Ontario company by an act of the legislative assembly of the province of Ontario, being chapter 17 of the statutes of 1868, with the name "Ontario Mutual Life Assurance Company".
The company was incorporated as a dominion company by an act of the parliament of Canada, being chapter 33 of the statutes of 1878, with the name "The Ontario Mutual Life Assurance Company". By this act all assets of the Ontario company were vested in the dominion company which assumed all obligations of the Ontario company.
The powers granted to the company by chapter 33 of the statutes of 1878 have been varied and enlarged by the following acts of the parliament of Canada: chapter 96 of the statutes of 1889; chapter 123 of the statutes of 1894; chapter 112 of the statutes of 1900; chapter 159 of the statutes of 1903; chapter 67 of the statutes of 1925.
The name of the company was changed from "The Ontario Mutual Life Assurance Company" to "The Mutual Life Assurance Company of Canada" in 1900 by an act of the parliament of Canada, being chapter 112 of the statutes of 1900.
The company was Canada's first mutual life insurance company and from its inception has been a mutual company. The company sells insurance throughout Canada but not outside of Canada. Approximately one sixth of the company's business-insurance in force, investments and agency personnel-is carried on in the province of Quebec.
In connection with its business in the province of Quebec the company advertises and issues company literature in the French language. Normally when dealing with a person whose native tongue is French, whether in the province of Quebec or elsewhere, the company carries on all transactions with that person in the French language, including the issuance of a policy in the French language, such policy of necessity setting out the

name of the company as "The Mutual Life Assurance Company of Canada". For some years agents of the company on business in the province of Quebec have urged the company to obtain power to use a French version of its name.
The alternative name requested by the company has been chosen in order to differentiate the company from provincial mutual life insurance companies carrying on business in the province of Quebec, the names of a number of which include the word "mutuelle".
Mr. Louis L. Lang, Galt, Ontario, is chairman of the board. Mr. E. A. Rieder, F.S.A. of Kitchener, Ontario, is president. Mr. R. C. Berkinshaw, C.B.E., is vice president and lives in Toronto. Many other distinguished Canadians across Canada are directors of this company.
Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to lend my full support to this bill as requested by the company.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referred to the standing committee on banking and commerce.

Robert Jardine McCleave: Mr. Speaker the hon. member for St. Antoine-Westmount (Mr. Webster) unfortunately cannot be here today. However, he has asked me to move second reading of the bill in his stead.


Mr. Speaker:: Is the house prepared to accept the hon. member for Halifax in place of the hon. member for St. Antoine-Westmount?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Robert Jardine McCleave: the second reading of Bill No. S-4, to incorporate Westmount Life Insurance Company.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referred to the standing committee on banking and commerce.


Mr. Eric Nielsen (Yukon) moved: the third reading of Bill No. C-14, to amend the Representation Act and the Canada Elections Act.


Mr. Speaker:: Before the house proceeds, may I have leave to raise a point of order which it seems to me must be raised in connection with section 4 of the bill as reprinted.
Hon. members will recall that this Bill No. C-14 came before the house for second reading a few days ago. At that time the hon. member for Yukon by unanimous consent was authorized to substitute an amended form of the bill which is now before the house and
Representation Act
which is described as "Reprinted as proposed to be amended in committee of the whole".
Second reading proceeded, the bill was passed through committee and it stands for third reading, although the bill in its present form including section 4 was in the hands of the house only at the time when second reading was moved, or rather was in the hands of the house for the first time then. If hon. members will look at section 4, I think they will agree with me that it authorizes-


Murdo William Martin: I have only section 3 in my bill, Mr. Speaker. Would you mind reading out section 4?


Lionel Chevrier: Could we have the bill?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Or could we have copies of the bill?


Mr. Speaker:: I shall be very pleased to read the section. Section 4 provides as follows:
4. Section 9 of the Canada Elections Act is amended by adding thereto the following subsection :
"(8) In the electoral district of Northwest Territories the returning officer, with the written authorization of the chief electoral officer, may appoint more than one election clerk and establish, if necessary, an office in each locality designated by the chief electoral officer, and may delegate, in writing, to any such election clerk appointed his powers of selecting and appointing enumerators and deputy returning officers and of selecting polling places."
Hon. members will observe that the first three sections are an amendment to the Representation Act which does not provide for the expenditure of any funds but is an act to deal with representation and electoral districts. On the other hand, section 4 provides for an amendment to the Canada Elections Act under which provision is made for payment of the expenses of elections. The problem I wish to present to the house is that section 4 appears to authorize an expenditure of public funds. For the convenience of hon. members who wish to look into the matter I may say that the requirements with respect to bills which authorize an expenditure of public funds are found in section 54 of the British North America Act which states in part as follows:
It shall not be lawful for the House of Commons to adopt or pass any vote, resolution, address, or bill for the appropriation of any part of the public revenue... to any purpose that has not been first recommended to that house by message of the Governor General-
That is part of the section. Then our standing order 61 implements that statutory provision. References to the practice will be found in Beauchesne's fourth edition, in citations 243, 245 and 355. In determining whether any particular legislation appropriates money

Representation Act
within the meaning of these provisions the issue is not the amount of money but whether there is an appropriation of public funds. I cannot but come to the conclusion that section 4 authorizes the expenditure of public funds.
If that would stand in the way of the progress of the bill, it might be that the issue could be dealt with either by amendment or, if it is desired to proceed with the bill, this difficulty could be rectified by deferring it until a resolution has been brought in. It would not be proper for this bill to be read a third time and passed, thus setting a precedent which would stand in the future against the well known constitutional practice that no public funds are ever appropriated, involving as they do taxation, without the house having an opportunity to consider the matter in the resolution stage in committee before the bill itself is presented.
It would be in order, of course, to refer the bill back to the committee with instructions to delete clause 4. It may be that the Canada Elections Act, as it stands, would be the means of providing the money necessary for the implementation of clauses 1, 2 and 3 of the bill. If so, then clauses 1, 2 and 3 could be made effective even if clause 4 were deleted. If the Canada Elections Act does not have these enabling provisions, then it is all the more evident that the proposed amendment to the Canada Elections Act contravenes our practice.


Hon. George C. Nowlan (Minister of National Revenue):: In view of the remarks which Your Honour has made with respect to this bill, I may say that I am sure the house appreciates the view which you have taken and, as always, the care with which you have considered matters which are the constitutional privileges of this house. In view of these comments, I feel that this house would want to take the appropriate action, so I move:
That Bill No. C-14, an act to amend the Representation Act and the Canada Elections Act, be not now read a third time but that the said bill be referred back to the committee of the whole with instructions to delete clause 4 therefrom and amend the title of the said bill to read, "An Act to Amend the Representation Act".


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, having listened to the decision which Your Honour has handed down, I may say it is certainly in conformity with our understanding of the rules and regulations. I think I would be disposed to agree with the acting house leader, Minister of National Revenue (Mr. Nowlan) in the motion he has just made. I think it would be unfortunate if this house were to do anything by means of a private bill which would indicate the expenditure of public funds. I believe the procedure which

is being followed is the proper one under the circumstances and we would be disposed to accept it.


Harold Edward Winch: find myself in a somewhat difficult position, Mr. Speaker. May I say first of all, Mr. Speaker, that we in this group appreciate very much the stand you have taken and the way you have drawn to the attention of this house the implications of a certain bill introduced by a private member which, under clause 4, calls for the expenditure of public money. This, of course, is not within the purview of a private member.
However, sir, I should like to ask whether or not you have considered one other phase of the matter. The amendment which is now before us calls for referring the bill back to committee and the withdrawal of one clause. The withdrawal of this one clause could go a long way towards nullifying the effectiveness of the bill itself. The point I should like to ask you, sir, is this: I am now going back in my memory a long time, but I can remember an incident in the provincial legislature. I think the provincial legislature is not different in so far as matters of this nature are concerned, from the House of Commons. I believe, sir, that a private member can introduce a bill calling for the expenditure of money from the public purse, but that bill cannot be carried on third reading unless the government has announced that it is acceptable to them. I am certain, sir, my memory is correct on that constitutional provision. If the government accepts the private member's bill, that bill is then in order.
I should like to ask you, sir, if you have given any consideration to that phase of the matter? Under those circumstances, the government, instead of asking that this bill be referred back to committee for deletion of the clause, could give permission for the expenditure of public money.


Mr. Speaker:: Having placed this motion before the house, perhaps I should ascertain if there are other members who wish to speak. It is not in order for me to answer questions which are not relevant at the moment. I have made my ruling with respect to this bill. I believe I know to what the hon. member is referring, and that is a case where the acceptance of the government has been indicated in the course of the bill. This has happened in some cases. However, the obstacle here is the lack of the resolution and committee stage.
I believe the hon. member for Skeena wishes to make some contribution. Perhaps I should say that I consider the point made by the hon. member for Vancouver East now to

be passed because I made my ruling and expressed my view, and an amendment has intervened which recommends a specific course of action.
However, I do not wish to stand on ceremony. If the hon. member for Essex East (Mr. Martin) has something to say in connection with what was suggested, then perhaps the hon. member for Skeena would defer his remarks.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I think the point made by the hon. member for Vancouver East is not well taken. I notice in Beauchesne's fourth edition, 1958, citation 243, the following:
All bills providing for the payment of salaries or for any expenditure whatever out of the public funds of the dominion must be first considered as resolutions in committee of the whole. And all such resolutions necessary to the introduction of a bill must first obtain the recommendation of the Governor General. It often happens that bills are introduced with certain clauses providing for salaries or other charges on the public revenue, and in that case the bill may be introduced directly on motion, while the clauses in question. .. are considered in the shape of resolutions in committee on the bill.
The point that the hon. gentleman was seeking to make was that if the government accepts this bill then it could be put forward, even though it does involve the expenditure of money.


Harold Edward Winch: If they so announced.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Yes; but I think it is clear from what Beauchesne has said that under our practice no money bill can be introduced except by a minister of the crown. The situation, in this particular instance, cannot be corrected, the hon. member having moved something which under our practice cannot be moved by a private member. The government cannot really be saying that it approves giving the hon. member a power which under our rules resides only with a member of the government.


Frank Howard: I think, Mr. Speaker, that following the course of your thoughts upon this, and as it is not possible now for the government to accept or do anything else, perhaps we could consider another course. As the hon. member for Vancouver East said, and as the hon. member for Yukon is well aware, the effect of the bill will be greatly lessened if this provision is not made, if an amendment is not made in the Canada Elections Act because of the distance, the geography and the like. Would it not be possible to follow this course? I think everyone wishes to make sure this amendment is put into effect and that it be an effective amendment so far as the people up in that part of the country are concerned.
Representation Act
I believe that if the Minister of National Revenue is in a position to do so, he should indicate to the house that on some subsequent day it would be the intention or hope of the government to introduce a money bill dealing with the Canada Elections Act, as a separate piece of legislation. Were he to do that we could then proceed to give third reading to this bill and wait for the accompanying money resolution to be introduced by the government. This would ease the minds of all hon. members in the house.


George Clyde Nowlan: I do not want to terminate the debate by speaking now.


Mr. Speaker:: As the minister says, if he has the right to speak now he will certainly close the debate, but perhaps by leave of the house he could indicate what he has to say in response to the hon. member for Skeena.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


George Clyde Nowlan: I gathered from the debate which took place on this bill on another day that it was the desire of the house to facilitate its passage but, sir, we have landed into a constitutional difficulty which you properly drew to our attention, a difficulty we are now trying to deal with and at the same time meet the views of the house.
If we can get the bill into committee, and the committee of the whole sees fit to amend it and bring it back to third reading, then the bill will maintain its position on the order paper and can be dealt with later on during this hour or on some other day. However, if it goes to the committee and stays there, then it will be there for quite a while.
There are two possibilities. At the moment I am not in a position to give an undertaking on the part of the government, but the provisions of the Canada Elections Act are so wide and the powers given to the chief electoral officer are of such a nature that it would appear to the law officers that the chief electoral officer, through his own organization, might be able to take such steps as are necessary to implement this bill if parliament sees fit to pass it, even without clause 4. I am not in a position to give a definite undertaking on this matter but my understanding is that if parliament sees fit to pass this bill, and if the law officers feel the chief electoral officer has not that power then, as the hon. member for Skeena suggested a moment ago, a bill could be introduced and I think would be introduced to add a section to the elections act which would implement the procedure contemplated in clause 4 of the bill.


Lionel Chevrier: It would seem to me, sir, that in the light of your decision the proper

Representation Act
solution to the problem would be to do as indicated in the amendment that is now before the house. It is quite clear, from what the minister has said following your decision, that the bill goes beyond the constitutional jurisdiction of a private member. I think the proper manner in which to proceed is to refer it to committee of the whole to delete the section, and it will then be up to the government to determine whether or not it wants to introduce a resolution by way of amendment to the Canada Elections Act.


George Clyde Nowlan: If it is necessary.


Lionel Chevrier: If it does, then the house will be faced with that responsibility at the time; but I certainly do not think we can be placed face to face with that responsibility now in the light of your decision and in the light of the amendment that is before us. It is my very respectful suggestion that we proceed in the manner indicated by the motion.
Amendment agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Chown in the chair.
On clause 4-Appointment of more than one election clerk.


Mr. Grills:: I move, seconded by Mr. Dubois, that clause 4 be deleted from the bill.


Harold Edward Winch: We are in a position now to ask the minister to give his definite, considered opinion. We are in agreement on this bill, and we should ask him that if in the immediate future it is not found that the purport and effect of the bill can be carried out in its entirety, will the government in the immediate future introduce the necessary governor in council regulation?


George Clyde Nowlan: I cannot give you that undertaking on the part of the government. The only thing I can say is that if the bill stays in committee it will be here for a long, long while. However, if it comes out and gets third reading, as I said earlier the law officers are giving consideration to the matter and it is my opinion-I may say this is not the government's opinion-that the act is wide enough to permit the chief electoral officer to do this. If that is not the case then the government will give very careful consideration to bringing in an amendment to the elections act, to accomplish that which the House of Commons purported to do the other day, but which it now finds it has not the power to do.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
On the title.
Lee Elgy Grills: I move, seconded by Mr. Dubois,

That all the words after the words "Representation Act" be deleted from the title so that the title, as amended, would read "An Act to Amend the Representation Act".


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Title as amended agreed to.
Bill reported.
Mr. Speaker:: When shall the said bill be read a third time?


Lionel Chevrier: Next sitting of the house.


Erik Nielsen: Now, Mr. Speaker.


Mr. Speaker:: There will have to be unanimous consent to take the third reading now and I hear objection.


Lionel Chevrier: May I ask the hon. member a question, if I am not out of order?
I note that clause 3, dealing with the definition of Northwest Territories, lists certain areas. In paragraph (b) it says that the islands that are within the province of Manitoba, the province of Ontario or the province of Quebec are excepted. Could the hon. member tell us what islands in the province of Quebec are being excepted from that definition?


Erik Nielsen: Mr. Speaker, in reply to the hon. member, the islands are not excepted in the sense that they are not included in the electoral district, so that their residents would obtain the vote, which is simply what this bill seeks to do. The clause is phrased in this way to ensure that any possible provincial rights to offshore islands will not be interfered with should the question arise in the future.
Mr. Speaker, I am sure all hon. members would agree with me that in view of the area which has to be covered by the staff of the chief electoral officer by the addition of these two new districts, the sooner the house proceeds with third reading the quicker the chief electoral officer will be able to get his machinery in motion. I would impress upon Your Honour and hon. members that it is indeed urgent that, having agreed to the principle of extending the franchise to these people, we should proceed to give the bill third reading so as to enable the chief electoral officer to proceed immediately in setting up the necessary machinery for carrying into effect the provisions of the bill.


Mr. Speaker:: Does what has been said alter the situation?


Harold Edward Winch: Mr. Speaker, I agree with the hon. member that we should pass the bill now, but I would advise him that the other place has adjourned for a week.


Mr. Speaker:: When shall the said bill be read the third time; next sitting of the house?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.



CANADA GRAIN ACT


Mr. Reynold Rapp (Humboldi-Melforl-Tis-dale) moved: the second reading of Bill No. C-15, to amend the Canada Grain Act (rape-seed and mustard seed).
He said: Mr. Speaker, the house will recall that last session I introduced Bill No. C-130, to amend the Canada Grain Act. The wording of Bill No. C-15 which is before the house for discussion at the present time is very similar to that of the bill I introduced last session.
Hon. members will know that Canada is best known in the commercial markets of the world for the high quality of her grains, particularly wheat. The purpose of this bill to amend the Canada Grain Act is to bring grains such as rapeseed and mustard seed to the same high standard as other Canadian grains. Ninety to 95 per cent of all the rapeseed grown in this country is exported, and it is imperative that the quality of this grain be of the highest standard that we are able to achieve.
The amendment before the house proposes to revise the present statutory grades for rapeseed to meet present day trade requirements. It is in conformity with the suggestion of the board of grain commissioners for Canada to have the Canada Grain Act reclassified in accordance with schedules A and B of the bill. It also meets with the full approval of the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Hamilton), under whose jurisdiction fall the Canadian wheat board and the board of grain commissioners for Canada. I am sure it will also meet with the approval of hon. members of this house. Schedules A and B are based on the recommendations of the chief grain inspector for the board of grain commissioners and are in compliance with the export requirements contained in stipulations with regard to maximum percentage of foreign materials, degree of soundness and standard of cleanliness.
Clause 2 of the bill will change the definition of the grades of domestic mustard seed from the present commercial definition to a statutory definition. The committee on western grain established commercial grades for domestic mustard seed on November 4, 1953. These grades have now been revised to meet trade requirements, and the effect of this amendment is to raise these revised commercial grades to the level of statutory grades.
Canada Grain Act
At their annual meeting the Saskatchewan wheat pool delegates also asked the board of grain commissioners to include the presence of mustard in rapeseed as a factor in grading. Mr. Speaker, it is not now a factor except for a declaration as to mustard seed content when rapeseed is exported. It is generally accepted in the trade that the presence of more than 2 per cent of mustard in a rapeseed sample reduces its value as a source of edible oil. The identification of mustard in rapeseed-which are similar in size and colour-requires special equipment.
I must inform the house that unless steps are taken to change the grading to that spelled out in my bill, mustard may ruin the rapeseed crop, and thus growers of rapeseed will be faced with a loss of vital markets unless they produce a crop free of mustard seed. If mustard seed is allowed to become an impurity in rapeseed, processors could not hope to use it for making edible oils.
The menace of mustard contamination of prairie rapeseed crops is now recognized by the three western provinces as being extremely serious. In southern Alberta mustard has been grown for many years, and it should be left to these places to grow all the mustard seed that can be sold. There is no need to extend the mustard acreage into Saskatchewan. This is completely unnecessary, because we could sell to the United States and other countries all the mustard they need from the crops produced in southern Alberta.
Of course, we are aware of the fact that some commercial interests are now actively encouraging the growing of mustard throughout Saskatchewan by offering contracts which might sound attractive to farmers, but the farmers are uninformed about the dangers involved. If we ignore these threats to our rapeseed crops in the west and attempt to grow mustard and rapeseed in the same areas, then I say, Mr. Speaker, that we would be killing the goose that lays the golden egg, as far as rapeseed producers are concerned. Wild mustard alone, without any additional trouble from the two types of tame mustard, would be capable of killing the market for rapeseed to be used for the manufacture of margarine or for export.
Mr. Frank Mohler of the seed growers of Maymont, this year's president of the Saskatchewan branch of the Canadian seed growers' association, expressed concern about this matter and said that growers of rapeseed faced a loss of vital markets unless they took pains to produce a crop free of mustard seeds, both wild and tame.
Dr. H. R. Sallans, oilseed chemistry specialist in the prairie regional laboratory of the national research council in Saskatchewan,

Canada Grain Act
urges that rapeseed and mustard be kept separate and be grown in different fields and different districts.
Dr. Sallans expressed concern that contamination of the seeds of these two crops would affect the marketing potentialities of both. He firmly agreed with a statement made by Mr. F. Mohler, president of the Saskatchewan branch, Canadian seed growers' association, that if a district wished to keep on growing rapeseed it should give up all intention of dabbling in mustard production.
World production of rapeseed in 1961 is believed to have reached an all time high, exceeding for the first time the pre-war average level. It is estimated that the world production of rapeseed is 4.3 million short tons, some 7 per cent more than in 1960 and almost one third more than the 1950-54 average. Virtually all of the rapeseed grown in North America is produced in Canada, namely, a near record of 745,000 acres.
According to Mr. R. E. Merry, president of the institute of edible oilfoods, oilseed production on the prairies could expand to occupy at least 1,500,000 acres, if Canada is to meet her domestic needs and fill the potential demand for rapeseed abroad.
The publication Foreign Trade issued this month by the federal Department of Trade and Commerce, indicates that the future prospects for marketing Canadian rapeseed and mustard seed appear good. The publication also forecasts that the common market countries will provide an expanding outlet for Canadian oilseeds. Canadian exports of oilseeds in 1960 are such as to indicate that both rapeseed and mustard seed have considerable export value. In that year, total exports of rapeseed amounted to $13,240,000, and exports of mustard seed to $2,604,000. Japan and Italy were Canada's best customers for rapeseed.
Hon. members will be aware of the fact that last fall a Canadian oilseed trade mission went to Europe. After two months touring, the members of the mission returned to Canada and reported on what they had seen. The tour was organized by the Department of Trade and Commerce under the present Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Hees). The government chose men to make up the trade mission who not only knew the oilseed industry but had a personal interest in it. The six nations toured were Great Britain, France, the Netherlands, Belgium, Italy and West Germany. Here are the mission's general conclusions:
The general improvement in economic conditions in western Europe will result in a continuing increase in the consumption of the products of oil seeds. The consumption of fats and oils will steadily increase in those countries, Holland, Belgium, west Germany and Britain, where present

consumption is at a high level. In Italy and France, a sharp increase is envisaged as their consumption is expected to rise sharply to approach the same per capita level as that in the other four countries.
If the proposals for oilseeds, fats and oils in the common market are adopted, a greater potential will exist for increased marketings of oilseeds and oilseed meals in the EEC countries. The proposed tariffs on oils will have the effect of switching some of the trade in oils to oilseeds.
A market for rapeseed exists in all of the countries visited, providing Canadian prices are competitive with those charged for other oilseeds.
The mission made the following recommendations, and I should like to stress their importance:
1.	Consideration should be given to amending the grading nomenclature of rapeseed to read No. 1 Canada rapeseed, No. 2 Canada rapeseed, No. 3 Canada rapeseed etc. Rapeseed containing in excess of some minimum quantity of mustard seed should be degraded.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Is this recommendation in full conformity with the actual provision in the bill?


Reynold Rapp: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I was just about to say that this recommendation is in full conformity with the wording spelled out in my bill.
The recommendations continue as follows:
2.	Consideration of a government agency issuing an export certificate of mustard content in rape-seed upon loading in a Canadian port.
3.	Consideration of a government agency issuing an export certificate of oil content for all oilseeds upon loading in a Canadian port.
Here again I should like to draw the attention of the house to the fact that rape-seed and mustard seed are very similar in size, colour and weight. Unless some experts issue these certificates, the result will be that people overseas who buy our rapeseed may find that there is more mustard seed in the deliveries than actually appears to be the case. To proceed with the recommendations:
4.	It is recommended that study and research be given to the mustard seed crop to test new varieties, increase oil content, ensure pure seed, and reduce moisture content.
5.	Every effort should be made to contain Canada's mustard seed crop and to inform Canadian growers of the disastrous effects of the mixture of rapeseed and mustard seed upon export sales of rapeseed.
I am sure the house will realize how important the adoption of this bill will be to the rapeseed industry and to the mustard seed industry. As is indicated by the mission's recommendations, unless steps are taken to change the grading now in effect to the grading which is spelled out in schedule A, our rapeseed industry may suffer a severe loss.
I had some other observations to make but I see time is getting short and I should like to hear some other members express their opinions on this bill.


Paul Joseph James Martin: The house will recall that when we had before us last year an amendment to the Canada Grain Act dealing with rapeseed and mustard seed-an amendment introduced by the hon. member for Humboldt-Melfort-Tisdale (Mr. Rapp)- there was no more enthusiastic supporter of that measure than members of our party.
Therefore it was to be anticipated that I should join with the hon. member in seeking the modification for which he asks in this bill. The house will, I am sure, support the objective of this bill which is to maintain a high standard of quality, grading and moisture content, particularly having in mind that rapeseed, as the hon. member told us a few minutes ago, is exported from this country to the extent of 90 per cent of the Canadian production. This being the case we would want to maintain a reputation abroad for a high quality product, just as we do in the case of other grains.
Knowing something about the production of corn, 65 per cent of which, is, of course, grown in southwestern Ontario, I can say that we have found-


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: It all comes from Essex East.


Paul Joseph James Martin: No, it does not all come from Essex East although the highest quality may come from that area.


Mr. Pugh:: A lot of corn comes from Essex East.


Paul Joseph James Martin: The bulk of Canadian corn comes from southwestern Ontario which includes Essex East. We have found in the production of corn it is essential to maintain high grades and make sure that the moisture content is adequate to the demands of the trade. Therefore I appreciate the remarks of the hon. member in this connection.
The most remarkable thing about what is happening in the house today is not the commendable effort of the hon. member for Humboldt-Melfort-Tisdale but the fact that with respect to a measure of such great importance to the farmers of Canada and particularly those of the hon. member's constituency, there is no one on the government side of the house at this time charged with the administration of agriculture.
I would not wish to include the Minister of Agriculture in this indictment. The minister is ill and this we all regret. But his parliamentary secretary is not in the house.
Mr. Pallet!: He is in hospital.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I regret that he is in hospital. I do not know what is happening in the Department of Agriculture that has led to such a high degree of disability.
Canada Grain Act
But there is a second parliamentary secretary, and he is not in the house at a time when we are discussing a matter of concern to the farmers of western Canada. This bill is being discussed without any manifestation of interest on the part of the government.


Mr. Palleil:: Utter nonsense.


Paul Joseph James Martin: That is a fact. This bill should have been introduced by the government.


Henry Frank Jones: It should have been introduced by the Liberal government years ago.


Paul Joseph James Martin: This bill was made possible because of the energy and foresight of the hon. member for Humboldt-Melfort-Tisdale, and members like the hon. member for Essex East and others in the Liberal party in particular who gave the hon. gentleman support.
When this bill was introduced last year we pointed out that it was of such importance that it ought to have been introduced by the government. That argument is even stronger today because we are told by the sponsor of the measure that the recommendations contained in the bill as to standards of quality in schedules A and B were approved by the board of grain commissioners. Here is the board of grain commissioners, a government body, recommending a particular course. In spite of this the government does not sponsor the bill. It does not even give an indication of interest. This is indicated by the absence of one of the parliamentary secretaries to the Minister of Agriculture.


An hon. Member:: Do not talk it out.


Paul Joseph James Martin: In addition, the Acting Minister of Agriculture is not in the house. He ought to be in his place now or someone speaking for the government should be present to-


Henry Frank Jones: On a point of order-


Paul Joseph James Martin: I know my hon. friends do not like this. They wish to delay passage of this bill.


Henry Frank Jones: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In order that we may clear up this point would Your Honour refresh the hon. gentleman's memory by advising him that this is the private members' hour?


Paul Joseph James Martin: That is not a point of order. I will not have my time taken up by specious points of order raised by the hon. member for Saskatoon.
I was complaining about the lack of interest on the part of the government and its failure to support one of its most devoted

Canada Grain Act
and energetic followers, leaving it to members of the opposition to rise and support him. To indicate how substantial is my accusation and how justified I am in making this complaint let me point out that the sponsor of the bill told us that the Minister of Trade and Commerce-


David Vaughan Pugh: There are only three Liberals in the house.


Paul Joseph James Martin: -had caused a commission to be sent to Europe to investigate the export potential of rapeseed and mustard seed and that this commission returned from Europe and made four recommendations. Included among the recommendations are the provisions contained in schedules A and B of the bill. That commission was not appointed by the hon. member for Humboldt-Melfort-Tisdale-although his activities may have inspired the government at long last to do something about this-it was a commission appointed by the Minister of Trade and Commerce. Neither he nor his parliamentary secretary is present today. There is no one on the government side of the house to indicate why the government appointed this royal commission-


Mr. Starr:: I am here.


Paul Joseph James Martin: -or why it has
not come to the support of the devoted and energetic little member from Humboldt-Mel-fort-Tisdale who today in this important effort is being supported by members of the Liberal opposition.


David Vaughan Pugh: All three of them.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Therefore, Mr. Speaker,-


David Vaughan Pugh: All three of them.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, I know I am fighting along with the hon. member for Humboldt-Melfort-Tisdale against this great galaxy of government members, these numerous members of the Tory party, who are embarrassed at this moment by the absence of ministers who should assume responsibility in this field, including the Minister of Trade and Commerce, his parliamentary secretary, the Acting Minister of Agriculture, and also one of the parliamentary secretaries to the Minister of Agriculture.


Michael Starr: The hon. member is laughing.


Paul Joseph James Martin: In spite of these catcalls-
Mr. Pallet!: Stop smiling.


Paul Joseph James Martin: -and in spite of the efforts on the part of the whip of the Conservative party and others-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


John Cameron Pallett: Why is the hon. member laughing?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I am laughing with sorrow at hon. members opposite who are not showing the proper interest in this matter.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Paul Joseph James Martin: It is laughable that a government with such a large majority does not find it possible when one of their own comes forward with a good measure to give him the support his bill deserves. This measure deserves support. We should pass it right away. The bill should have been introduced by the government.


Mr. Dinsdale:: Don't talk it out.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I commend the hon. member for bringing forward this measure to maintain high standards of quality with regard to a commodity 90 per cent of which is sold in the markets of the world, and particularly, in Japan and Italy.
It is now one minute before six o'clock. I suggest that we give immediate passage to this bill and in doing so that we express our regret at the lack of interest in it on the part of members of the government.


Henry Frank Jones: The hon. member has talked out the bill.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Speaker, as one of the spokesmen for prairie agriculture in this group I wish on its behalf to express support of this bill and join in the fight with the hon. member for Essex East and the hon. member for Humboldt-Melfort-Tisdale against the inertia and lack of interest on the part of the government with respect to this measure.


David Vaughan Pugh: Shame.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I congratulate the sponsor of the bill for his courage, industry and efforts in this respect.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: He is an excellent Conservative.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I commend him for proceeding in the face of the little support he has received from his party. Because I have more to say on this bill I move the adjournment of the debate.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Would the hon. member not consider modifying his proposal? Could we consider that we have not yet reached six o'clock so we could pass this bill notwithstanding the fact that the government shows no interest in it?


Michael Starr: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Chown):: Does the Minister of Labour wish to pursue his question of privilege?


Michael Starr: I merely wish to point out to hon. members of the house that it is now six o'clock and that the hon. member for Essex East talked out this bill.


Paul Joseph James Martin: On a question of privilege, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Labour who usually confines himself to those things of which he has some knowledge-


Mr. Browne (St. John's West):: Not like the hon. member for Essex East.


Paul Joseph James Martin: -has raised a question of privilege. I am now proposing that the house which is master of its own rules sit beyond six o'clock and give passage to this bill.


Michael Starr: The hon. member talked it out.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Chown):: The hour for the consideration of private bills having expired the house will now proceed to a consideration of the business which was interrupted at five o'clock.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Chown in the chair.



DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC WORKS

[Stage Direction]
1. General administration including a grant of $2,000 to the Canadian good roads association, $11,098,000.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.

AFTER RECESS

The committee resumed at 8 p.m.
William Arnold Peters: Before the house rose for the recess I was mentioning the fact that there seemed to be a need for a change in the requirements particularly of young people, in the field of national housing. I had indicated that there was a period in which when income was low there was a need for increased facilities and that in later years, when the mortgage was paid off, many of the homes that had been necessary for the young family were not necessarily satisfactory for the retired family. I had suggested that some consideration should be being given now in the form of a study in order to find out whether there is not a better way of solving this particular aspect of the housing problem.
Supply-Public Works
Certainly this situation is developing in many of our cities where it is not necessarily advantageous to own a house at all or it may be much wiser to rent the type of accommodation that is necessary.
This is being done in some the cities through the co-operation of some of the municipalities and the federal and provincial governments in order to allow people to rent homes according to their requirements for the number of children they have and taking into consideration their wage structure and the money available to that family. It may mean that those with a high income will be obliged to pay a much higher rent for the same accommodation than would be paid by workers with a low rate of pay. This may raise the general problem whether or not we have not bent over backwards in Canada, because of our free enterprise background, our pioneering spirit, in the fact that we have jealously guarded this business of house ownership. Certainly they fostered the idea of house ownership. It may be the situation that in years to come it may be advantageous for the government to know whether it would be wise to use rental systems, particularly for low wage earners or low cost rental projects. Some day it may be true that it is not advantageous to buy a house, to make the payments on a house over a very long period of time, and that these houses may be government owned, municipally owned or owned cooperatively by the municipalities and the governments, where the financing can be spread out over an even greater period of time than 25 years.
As we all know, there are in existence now many homes which are serving their occupants very well and which have been built over a period of 60 years or 70 years and in some cases over 100 years, with modifications, of course. This was pointed out quite strongly by Mr. A. C. Ashforth, president of the Toronto-Dominion bank, in an article which appeared in the Prince Rupert daily News of December 6, 1960. In this article he points out as follows:
With a 35 year mortgage ... the principal repayments for some years will be less than normal depreciation. Apparently the government expects inflation to continue in the housing market.
He goes on to point out that these houses in 10 years may be worth less than the payments that will still be owing on them. He then goes on to say this:
We need to consider if we are not building the wrong kind of houses, for the wrong reasons, in the wrong places, designed for the wrong people, at the wrong time.
Present policy directs N.H.A. financing into new houses and refuses to extent any aid to people buying existing houses. It drives young families into new houses and pushes them into the suburbs

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and this multiplies the demand for services of all kinds, and adds to the speculative and inflationary pressures on land values.
This situation has become fairly common in the city of Ottawa as I imagine it is in other cities where there are many houses that are not being used this year because of the fact that the market for that particular value of house in many cases has not kept up with the expectations of the contractors.
I should now like to turn to something else. The minister probably can explain this matter. However, when I checked on the Department of Public Works annual report I found that the last report I have been able to obtain was for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1960. I think we should at least have had the report for 1961. I would strongly suggest that the department is at fault or is remiss in its duty to the members of parliament when it does not provide the preliminary study for the current year, whatever year that may be, so that we can discuss in some detail not necessarily the exactitudes of the department but certainly the trend that is developing. I think this preliminary report should be an up to date report, should cover the last six months and should give an indication of any change of policy in which the government is engaging. I think the actual report itself should be for the last fiscal year, not for two years ago. I do not know why this is not possible, and I would like the minister to indicate why it has not been done.
Now, Mr. Chairman, I am interested also in discussing this matter of public buildings. It is my opinion that there is a trend developing in the Department of Public Works that would indicate that patronage, which I believe had been almost completely removed from the department under the previous minister, is now returning to the department. I do not want to say any more on that. I think that this is something that the government should be guarding against.


David James Walker: Mr. Chairman, the hon. member is making a serious allegation. He either should put up and give some information, or shut up and withdraw. I resent that very much.


William Arnold Peters: I do not want to go into the matter to any extent, but I will use an example.


David James Walker: Give us some good examples, not just the usual fiction.


William Arnold Peters: Mr. Chairman, if the minister would contain his asinine self and remain in his seat until someone else has had an opportunity to reply, he would find that I am not going to do so in the manner in which he did. There can be very few as ignorant as that. No one else is going

to reply in that way. We do not want to get into the same field as he is. There was a case in recent times in which a considerable amount of discussion at the political level affected a particular public building in my own area. This matter was discussed last year and was brought to the attention of the minister. Remarks have been made about it. I am not making any further comment on it except to say I do not think this is the way any department of government should function.
Now, Mr. Chairman-


David James Walker: Give me the particulars of that; the only chance I have seen of any patronage in the hon. member's riding is when he, himself, is trying to get something.


William Arnold Peters: I am not in business, and there is no possibility of my getting any patronage.


David James Walker: You will soon be out of business.


William Arnold Peters: The minister, if he wishes to ascertain these facts-


David James Walker: Put up or shut up.


William Arnold Peters: I wish the minister would shut up. I am getting very tired of listening to him.


David James Walker: You will get more tired.


William Arnold Peters: I would be quite happy if he would shut up, Mr. Chairman. The patronage that this hon. member could get from this or any other department is nil. I have no company. I am not engaged in any form of business other than being a politician. There is no opportunity for the minister to make the remark that he did. I am not connected with any company and have never been, other than gold mining in which I was an employee. I doubt if even the minister is suggesting that I am asking for patronage on behalf of the mining industry.
I have been very pleased with the buildings that have been erected by public works-


David James Walker: Mr. Chairman, the hon. member has given us no instances of any sort.


William Arnold Peters: If this is a point of order, I will listen to it, but if it is not a point of order-


David James Walker: I ask him to withdraw.


William Arnold Peters: -I am not much interested in what the minister has to say.
I have been very pleased with the type of building that the Department of Public Works has been erecting. There have been two or three small post offices constructed in my area. They are very functional buildings. I like the style and I like the architecture of these buildings. I believe the department is

now following the proper course in building these post offices. They are not ornate and are a decided asset to the areas in which they have been located. They are a credit to the communities and a credit to the Post Office Department for whom they have been built.
There is another problem I should like to discuss about which questions have been asked in the house. I refer to a survey that was conducted by the Department of Public Works in relation to the port of Moosonee. The provincial government has been very interested in this project. The Ontario Northland Railway, which is owned by the provincial government, has been interested in the development in the port of Moosonee, as have a number of other companies including some serving the Hudson bay area in connection with the Department of National Defence. I refer to the Bell Telephone Company, Marconi and others connected with communications in that area. The survey was conducted to ascertain if there would be any economic justification for a complete survey being undertaken. To date, we have only had a report from the provincial government on their decision which was made as result of this survey.
I hope that during the discussion the minister will see fit to give us a report. We understand a negative decision has been reached but we would like to have the facts so we can make a decision as to whether or not a port is feasible at this location, and what the estimated cost of the port would be. We should like to know also whether or not the federal government will give consideration to assisting in the building of this port.
The people in northern Ontario are not entirely in agreement with the chairman of the Ontario Northland Railway who envisions a very large port being developed at Moosonee. He also can see in the very near future a large industrial development taking place in that area which would justify the large expenditure that would be necessary for the installation of a deep sea port in that area.
I think the Department of Public Works must be concerned about this matter because they have a dock at Moosonee that is in very bad shape. The department will either have to do something about fixing that dock or give some consideration to a long range program which would improve the establishment of a deep sea port in that area. The reason we are interested in this problem is that if the port is developed it will mean a flow of trade into northern Ontario to service the industries which will develop in that area. It is quite true that there is a large iron ore development possible in the Belcher islands. The amount of ore has been ascertained and the grade of that ore is known. There is a 26207-1-89i
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market for it in Europe when the mine is developed. I believe the people in northern Ontario want to make sure they have the facilities available to supply the needs of the Belcher islands and the Hudson bay area from Ontario, rather than have all the produce come from Europe via Hudson strait. I think it is important to the people of northern Ontario to know just what to expect from that particular development, how much it is going to cost and what the possibilities are.
It may be that the department has decided the project is not feasible at the present time but may be at a later time. It may be possible that some of the work can be undertaken as a means of aiding the employment picture in that area. It may also be that some of the work could be done in the winter or that there are other factors which would make the project more or less feasible.
I would also like to make some comments about the buildings that are being built in Ottawa for the various departments of government. I have no fault to find with their architecture, and I agree with what the minister said today that their architecture is modern, pleasing to the eye and appears to be functional. In my opinion the buildings are worthy of the federal government; but I am not sure about the development of a planned scheme, if there is one, nor do I think the locations of these buildings are as well conceived as their design.
In my opinion there would be a considerable advantage gained were the government to group these buildings into a set area, keeping them closely together. At the moment it appears they are being spread out all over the city of Ottawa, and that we are as unplanned in our development as the city itself is in its development. Parliament should be presented with a long range program so that hon. members would have a much better understanding of what the government intend to do and have accomplished 20 years from now. By having that program we would know how the gaps which appear to exist at present would be filled. At the moment our expansion appears to be haphazard, with buildings going up on a piece of land here, a piece of land there, and have no all-embracing scheme covering them.
For example, I refer to the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys. The old buildings housing that department were not so old, they were well grouped in one area. Recently however we have undertaken a building program for that department which does not appear to fit in with the buildings we already have.
I presume that the national capital commission and national capital development are

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in very serious straits, although I am pleased to note that we have a chairman who seems to be easy to get along with in those matters. However, I know there must be a lot of fun in this planning stage, with the minister having the temperament he has and the mayor of Ottawa having the temperament she has. The two of them must have a great time together. There is a great similarity between the two and I imagine there is great fun when they get together to decide something between the commission and the city. This is a field in which we are looking for improvement and there appears to be a great deal of room for that improvement.
I should also like the minister, when replying to some of the questions that have been raised, to give us a report on the progress and further intentions of the government in relation to the modernization of the west block and the building of the tunnel between it and the centre block. I presume it cannot be helped, but we hear a great deal of complaint, from the hon. members occupying the west block, about the drilling which has continued over a period of time. While I do not object to that, having run one of those machines for many years and having listened to its noise, I presume it can be very discomforting to the hon. members who have to work in that atmosphere. I hope the minister will be able to tell us what the schedule is and whether the drilling is going to continue for long.
I do not know that I am too appreciative of the minister but I do find that this department, despite the minister, is considered to be a very good one. With the one exception I have mentioned, the officials of the department have always been very courteous and always know what they are talking about. I have been to see them on a number of occasions about matters in my riding, and I believe the department has capable officials who are doing a very good job and who should be given credit for it. However, I think the minister will agree with me in saying that it is never so good that it cannot be better. For these reasons I have raised the problems I raised today.
(Translation):


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Chairman, first of all, I should like to commend the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Walker) for having replaced all signs inside the parliament buildings and on nearby buildings by bilingual ones. The purpose of this step is to show to the Canadian people and foreign visitors that there are two official languages and racial groups in Canada. Moreover, following requests made by members of the house and

representatives of the people, he pursued the task undertaken when he had bilingual signs put on all buildings in the national capital.
Mr. Chairman, some time ago, I asked the minister to make a survey in regard to the dredging of L'Assomption river from Le Gardeur de Repentigny bridge to the city of Joliette. The dredging of that river is essential to the economy of the district.
Mr. Chairman, after that project has been examined by the senior officials of the Department of Public Works, I wonder if it would not be necessary for the provincial and federal authorities to come to an agreement in view of the fact that, in the province of Quebec, non-navigable waters come under the Quebec streams commission. I would appreciate such an examination being undertaken as soon as possible by the engineers of the Department of Public Works-who, I am glad to say, are most competent-so that this project may be carried out shortly if it comes under the federal authorities or so that negotiations may be opened between the provincial government and the department for the purpose of reaching an agreement in that connection.


Azellus Denis: That is a joint program.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: I mean while respecting provincial autonomy instead of flouting provincial rights, as you did for 20 years.
Mr. Chairman, please excuse me for this digression. I should not bother to reply to one who was of no value to his party when they were in power. He was here for 20 years without uttering a single word. Today, he is completely changed, he is not the same man. I am sure that the Canadian people will see to it that he is eliminated along, with his friends, for another 20 years, which should enable the Liberal party to amend itself and to obtain better men for the future.


Mr. Fortin:: With Maurice Sauve, what a chance they have.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Chairman, I know that the federal government is contributing, on the average, 50 per cent to the construction cost of the trans-Canada highway. This highway will run through the province of Quebec, and there is a strong possibility that it will pass on the south shore. The north shore of the St. Lawrence river, that is from Joliette to Trois Rivieres is one of the richest regions of the province of Quebec.

In the first place, it is one of the oldest regions and is also tremendously rich in woodland. Moreover, its land and water wildlife is most interesting, and Montreal sportsmen go fishing and hunting in the region north of Montreal, in some areas of my constituency of Joliette-L'Assomption-Montcalm and in the constituency of Berthier-Maskinonge-Delanaudiere. They even build summer camps in those areas.
Consequently, and in accordance with representations made by the mayors of the Joliette-L'Assomption-Montcalm riding, that is from L'Assomption to Trois Rivieres, I ask the minister whether the government could not consider the advisability of running the trans-Canada highway through our region, extending the metropolitan boulevard to Trois Rivieres and thence towards the south shore, if advisable.
I know that Mr. Mongrain, the mayor of Trois Rivieres is entirely of the same opinion, like the mayor of the town of Joliette and all the mayors in that area who fear economic difficulties. One must recognize that this $150 million highway is some kind of a door opened to industries. I am wondering whether the government of the province of Quebec, who is responsible for the route, will decide that the trans-Canada highway is to be built on the north shore of the St. Lawrence river rather than on the south shore, to bring industrial development to those areas. Otherwise it should announce without delay its intention of building a highway on the north shore.
I would not want the Joliette area and the northern part of the province of Quebec to be pictured as some underdeveloped country. I do hope, Mr. Chairman, that the government of Quebec will not delay progress and will make an affirmative reply in the interests not only of the people in Joliette-L'Assomption-Montcalm, but in the whole province.
Mr. Chairman, I would like to know if the minister has received many requests from Canadian municipalities, particularly those in Quebec, about the construction of sewage treatment plants. It would be advantageous on many counts for the Canadian municipalities to seize the opportunities offered them by the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation. I feel the solution of this problem is now essential.
The chambers of commerce and other
organizations are paying a great deal of attention to the matter. I would be very happy, Mr. Chairman, if the minister would tell us whether he has received any request
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from the various provinces and especially whether he has received any from the province of Quebec.


Mr. Meunier:: Before dealing with the remarks made this afternoon by the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Walker), I would like to reply to the hon. member for Joliette-L'Assomption-Montcalm (Mr. Pigeon).


Azellus Denis: It is not necessary to reply to him.


Adrien Meunier: He would like to see the
trans-Canada highway-


An hon. Member:: Not necessarily another road, if possible.


Adrien Meunier: -pass through the constituency of Joliette, now that the laying out has been made, chosen and decided. I surely think that the hon. member preaches in the wilderness. He should have made up his mind before 1960, when the construction of the trans-Canada highway was just being started. He then could have had a chance of having it go through his hometown.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: The laying out of the trans-Canada highway was done by the former administration.


Adrien Meunier: I shall not spend any more time on the questions asked by the member for Joliette-L'Assomption-Montcalm. I am going to deal with the speech made by the minister this afternoon. In fact, he started it with a stormy tone of voice. Happily no scuffle resulted from it. The minister must agree that he personally through his remarks aggravated the house members. He pointed out that only a few members were sitting on the opposition benches but he had not looked on the government side where there were only about 45 members present at that time.


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Out of 206.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: You have already been defeated by one vote when you were in office.
Mr. Pallet!: They were 80.


An hon. Member:: You see double.


Adrien Meunier: Privately, the minister is congenial, he is a good chap. But as soon as he rises to speak in the house or elsewhere in
public, his attitude changes entirely.


An hon. Member:: So does Mr. Lesage's.

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Adrien Meunier: I said that when the minister rises in the house it seems that his attitude changes. He has a knack for aggravating his listeners. It seems that he does this in order to distract our attention and thus prevent us from noticing that he is overstating the facts. The minister talked about the various activities of his department and devoted much of his speech to housing.
He reviewed the measures taken by his government under that act. He gave us interresting statistics about the houses built and the amounts invested. But he was modest, because he could have mentioned that the National Housing Act was enacted by a Liberal government and expanded, only, by the present government, which is trying to extend its scope to all the citizens of Canada.
If such was the case, the government failed to achieve its aim. As the hon. minister knows, I represent a Montreal constituency. And the housing statistics for the city of Montreal do not agree with those the minister gave us this afternoon.
Although the minister lives in Toronto-I do not envy him-he must not forget that Montreal is the largest city in Canada and that it does keep statistics too.
The minister gave us, this afternoon, statistics for the whole of Canada. I can tell him that there is an area in Canada where things are not going so well, and that is the city of Montreal.
This afternoon the minister told us that construction started on 125,767 houses in 1961, an increase of 15 per cent over 1960. However, in Montreal, during the first seven months of 1960, housing starts totalled only 8,844 compared to 12,187 during the same period in 1959.
In 1961, the number of building permits in Montreal decreased by one third compared with 1960, and in 1960 it had decreased in comparison with 1959.
The year 1961, which just ended, ranks eighth for the total value of construction, the record year being 1959 with the building of the Dorchester street skyscrapers, in Montreal. The year 1960 came fourth.
This afternoon, the minister stated that during 1961, 3,300 housing units had been built by limited dividend housing companies, of which 2700 were for low income families. I regret that he was not able to give us statistics for each province. However, I can say that very few low rental units have been built in Montreal.
At the present time, apartment houses are being built in Montreal, which are of little value for low income families.
I would be remiss if I did not point out to the minister the cause of the decline in the construction industry in Montreal. There is only one cause and it is that lots or building sites have reached a very high price.
It is true, as the minister pointed out, that housing construction plays an important part in the economy of the nation. In fact, activity in the building trade is a sign of prosperity because all trades are employed.
However, since 1957, while this government has allocated millions to housing, the price of lots has gone up sharply, and a large number of building contractors had to quit that trade, being unable to sell their houses because they had to ask for a price that the buyer could not afford.
The minister stated this afternoon that one family out of seven is living in a new dwelling. That may be true, but I can tell him that it is not the case in the city of Montreal.
The result is, Mr. Chairman, that, with lots being priced too high, single family properties are out of reach for workers and white-collar people. I daresay that one with a $6,000 to $7,000 yearly income and a family of two or three children also finds himself in that category.
Since the minister referred to low cost dwelling units, I hope he will take into consideration the request he received from the mayor and the chairman of the executive council of Montreal for a housing project, under section 6 of the act, on the St. Sulpice Domain and Trinitaires boulevard, in Ville Emard.
The plan submitted by the Montreal municipal authorities was designed to house civic employees. I do hope that the minister will give an affirmative reply.
Newspapers have mentioned that the minister was opposed to these projects because he had been told that there were too many empty units in the city of Montreal. That statement is partly true. However, the apartments which are unoccupied are not one family units but mostly small units of three or four rooms in apartment buildings unsuitable for large families.
Because of the high cost of land, apartment buildings have been built for the past two or three years, to cover entire city lots in Montreal leaving no space back or front. Needless to say, those buildings are not fit for workers with children.

I should like to make one last remark to the minister concerning the research to be carried out on public housing and community planning, under section 5 of the act. This afternoon, he told us that his department is continuing its research in the field of urban housing districts. I note however, on page 363 of his estimates, that the item of $1,649,000 we were asked to vote last year, does not appear this year. Yet, research is very important in this field. Regulations should be enacted, with the co-operation of provincial and municipal authorities, for the guidance of the building industry and for the classification and development of land.
In this respect, X should like to draw the minister's attention to a report which was published in the January 19, 1961 issue of La Presse, during the conference of the home builders' association which was held in Montreal, under the chairmanship of Mr. John Parkin, of Toronto. The report recommended the establishment of a Canadian research institute on urban centres:
The establishment of a Canadian institute of urban area development would be of immense value not only for the building Industry, but also for the general economy of Canada. The creation of such an organization is essential to put an end to land speculation and bring a necessary orderliness in the many housing development projects to be carried out in future years.
Further on, it is stated:
Mr. Parkin feels that it is abnormal for one of the largest industries in this country, the building industry, not to have as yet established its own research centre. Starting from a recent report prepared by the Canadian architectural institute, Mr. Parkin broadly defined the functions of such an organization. It should first of all offer guidance to the building industry throughout Canada, indicating what type of housing would meet the requirements of the Canadian people. It then could deal with land classification and with its development. In a word it could study from an economic viewpoint those districts and urban centres which are developing, in order to regulate their expansion.
Mr. Chairman, I pointed out a moment ago to the hon. minister that if housing construction has slowed down in Montreal, it is due to the high price of lots and also to inflation that has affected those lots since 1957.
Well, this is the content of this builders' report under the title:
A Gold Mine.
It is said that the convention:
Contended that speculation upon building sites was a real gold mine for those who exercise it, exactly because it does not require expensive work nor is it subject to taxation. It pointed out that it is done on a large scale all through this country and that it is responsible for most of the numerous problems arising from many home building projects.
Une mine d'or.
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He explained that, due to this speculation, several towns are going right now through an abnormal and very expensive expansion. He remains convinced that this situation can and must be corrected through the adoption of some taxation procedure.
I do hope that the minister will agree that the report issued at the builders convention makes sense and if he is interested he could get a copy and consider it. That may suggest to him means of stopping the inflation of lot prices so that all Canadians may eventually possess their own homes.
(Text):


David James Walker: In reply to the hon. member, may I say that the number of housing starts in Montreal in 1960 was 16,345 and in 1961, it was 17,204.


Mr. Slogan:: In rising to say a few words on the first item of the estimates of the Department of Public Works I should like, first of all, to commend the minister on the hard work he has done in the department and on the sympathetic hearing he has given us. Often we have had to lay a rigid case before him, and sometimes, when we did not have all the facts, he turned us away until we did. But I must say when we had a good case and had the people behind us he was always sympathetic toward the provision of anything that was needed in the constituency.
In this regard I was interested in references made by the opposition to patronage. It seemed to me that every time an hon. member who supported the government got something for his riding it was considered patronage. I suggest that if opposition members followed the example of many of us on the government side, worked a lot harder for their constituencies and talked a lot less in this house, the people in their ridings would be a lot better off.
There are three items in the estimates which are of particular interest and concern to me. One has to do with the wharf at Berens River, provision for which is in the estimates this year in the amount of $65,000. I might say that a request for a wharf at Berens River has been made year after year, always failling upon deaf ears. But there was something new added last year. I may say that I have made a request for such a wharf on a number of occasions since I was elected a member of this house and I was happy to see that these representations have been successful this year.

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Berens River is an isolated community on lake Winnipeg. There are no roads to it, and those who live there must depend on air and water transport. There has been a Hudson Bay wharf there for a number of years but this has been condemned. Whenever we have sent engineers in to decide what to do about a wharf they found that some of the people wanted it on one side of the river and others wanted it on the other side; they never seemed to be able to make up their minds. Well, this little community of 125 families formed a community development association. They have an Indian reserve there, and most of the people are metis. But since they formed this little group last year they have received $20,000 to clear an air strip so that planes can land during the break up and freeze up seasons. This air strip will also serve as a hay field so that they can grow hay for cattle during the summer.
I had the pleasure of visiting Berens River a few months ago to inspect the old wharf and I was received very kindly by this committee, which has now presented a united front. That made it much easier for a member of parliament to present their case to the minister and I thank them very much for their co-operation in this regard. Here is a small community which has shown what a small community can do if the people work together. I have mentioned that $20,000 was spent last year on an air strip. A pulpwood co-operative has been formed this year and about $40,000 will be received from pulpwood under this scheme. This will provide employment in the area.
Last year, too, this isolated community which was in dire need of some health facilities received a $50,000 nursing station located there from which public health nursing can be carried on into the north. Indeed, the northern area of my riding which is extremely isolated reminds me of that series of television programs entitled "The Flying Doctor". We have that type of service in my area.
A few years back we were also fortunate enough to have established at Little Grand Rapids a $41,000 nursing station.
It has been impossible to build a road northward along the eastern shore of lake Winnipeg. Under the roads to resources program we received $1.5 million to extend roads into the remote areas. However, the terrain is such that it is impossible to build roads northward; therefore they mostly run eastward toward the Ontario boundary. As a result of this wharves along the lake are very important from the standpoint of transportation and as a means of providing a livelihood to the fishermen.

In the last few years improvements have been made in several villages along the eastern shore of lake Winnipeg. There was a wharf extension at Princess harbour which cost $7,700. Some dredging was done at Pigeon point which cost $5,500. There was some rock blasting in the harbour and dredging at Rapid Point which came to approximately $10,000.
We have had problems with regard to the locks at St. Andrews on the Red river because of the low level of water. As a result there has been a terrific odour. Of course, the city of Winnipeg is largely responsible for this. However, the Department of Public Works has been most co-operative in trying to alleviate the situation.
The locks at Lockport require an expenditure of approximately $50,000 a year for maintenance and operation. In the last three or four years it has been found necessary to build a retaining wall because of the nature of the soil in the area which causes the banks of the river to slide in. With building the retaining wall, painting the bridge and undertaking various other projects an expenditure of approximately $93,000 was made.
We have three canalmen at Lockport. They are the only canalmen in Canada who come under the Department of Public Works. Complaints have been received to the effect that they would like to be put in the same category as the other canalmen across Canada. I would ask the minister to give this consideration, if possible. They feel they have been discriminated against in some manner. Although they have been extended sympathy and their working conditions have been improved somewhat, they feel they would like to come under the Department of Transport as do all other canalmen in Canada. Of course, the civil service commission is involved and we have not received too much co-operation from that body.
In North Kildonan we have a suburban area which like all other suburbs of major cities witnesses the construction of approximately 200 and 300 new homes every year. Nearly all these homes have been constructed under Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation loans. Most of the people in the area appreciate the action of the government in increasing maximum mortgage funds available and amending the qualifications of eligibility.
The mushrooming of the suburban area has created a number of problems and led to new necessities. One of them is a postal service. I was glad to see in the estimates this year provision for a postal letter carrier depot to be constructed in East Kildonan on the border of North Kildonan which would serve both areas. I believe the value of this depot would be approximately $65,000.

With respect to Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation let me say this. A year or two ago in this house we had a great debate about the Whiteshell nuclear research establishment. The Leader of the Opposition was very persistent in attempting to have this establishment located in his own riding. Members of the C.C.F. group urged that it be located at Elliot Lake. Progress has been made at Whiteshell. Approximately $1.5 million was spent there last year and approximately $4 million will be spent this year. Of that sum approximately $1 million will be spent by Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation in constructing the new town site at Pinawa. To date at that townsite three land clearing contracts have been let by C.M.H.C. in the amount of $61,130 and three contracts have been let for sewage and water supply and for road bases which total a little more than $1 million. I believe an additional $1 million will be spent at the town-site in the coming year. This will provide a great deal of employment in the area. We expect that approximately 500 men will be employed there.
That brings to mind the often misquoted statement made by the Prime Minister in Prince Albert on February 14, 1958 when he said that no man or woman would suffer unnecessarily from unemployment in Canada as long as they could be helped by public works. This is but one example of how the national policy of the Conservative government is working and how this party is trying to spread public works across the nation to provide equality of opportunity.
Here is Springfield, an area 300 miles long and 150 miles wide. When a C.C.F. member represented the constituency not one public works project was undertaken. Many pages of Hansard were filled by the hon. member but not one project commenced while he was the member for that riding. Then the Liberals represented the riding for 22 years. The Liberal representatives did not talk very much but they also did not accomplish very much. As far as I can ascertain only one or two buildings were constructed in the constituency between 1935 and 1957. Here was a great area neglected. Ninety per cent of the young people of that area had to seek opportunities elsewhere. Today for the first time they can find employment with the research establishment. Not just the ordinary labouring man can find employment at the construction site, but the brilliant young people attending universities will find an employment outlet at this research establishment.
It was interesting to note that when the Leader of the Opposition made his request that this establishment not go to Manitoba he mentioned as a reason the fact that there
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would be unemployment at Elliot Lake. Many of the young people in my constituency were working at Elliot Lake. I think it would be very nice to have something to offer them in Manitoba. After all, approximately $300 million has already been spent in Ontario by Atomic Energy of Canada Limited.
This project is welcomed in my riding by people of all political denominations. I may say the Leader of the Opposition will receive a rare reception if he ever shows himself in Springfield.
Recently we have had a swap deal with the United States under which the Pine Tree radar stations now come under Canadian jurisdiction. We heard some criticism from the opposition about this. Here is another instance where C.M.H.C. has been able to step in and look into the matter of housing for this radar station which is now called the Beausejour R.C.A.F. station. When it was occupied by the United States it was operated of course, as a foreign base. There were fewer married men, and many lived in trailers. Now that Canada has taken over the base there has been a great demand for expansion in the area to bring it up to normal requirements for a domestic base. In the last couple of years $795,000 was spent there. We expect that $1 million, approximately, will be spent on housing this year. I believe that the Department of Public Works through C.M.H.C. will be asked to administer housing in the area.
A great deal of employment has been created in the area. The staff at the base has been increased substantially and employment will increase when C.M.H.C. undertakes to provide housing. In this regard I should like to say to the minister-and this is also a decision for the Department of National Defence-I hope the town of Beausejour and village of Lac du Bonnet might be given consideration for part of this housing. I believe approximately 100 homes will be required. Of course there is the other side to the story and that is that with this lovely new town of Pinawa going up, it would be nice to have housing situated there, and to have some consideration given to this matter. Pinawa is located on the lake. There is an attractive summer resort area there and it will have all the modern facilities of any town. It will be a showplace for Manitoba.
I forgot to say also that this summer at Lockport we will continue the extension of the retaining wall. I think there has been a vote of $10,000 for that purpose.
In Springfield we have something like 3,500 Indians. As I said before, we have put up a service for them something like the flying doctor service. In this regard the

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Department of Public Works, in conjunction with the Department of National Health and Welfare, put up a nurses' residence last year which cost $112,000. I understand that plans are under way to amalgamate the Indian affairs hospital along with that in the pulp and paper town of Pine Falls and that something in the neighbourhood of $400,000 will be spent there in the coming year.
We have in our riding beautiful Fort Garry, the old stone fort, which is one of the few forts remaining intact. We hope by 1967 it will be our own showplace in Manitoba. This was the fort that was locked to visitors when I was elected. I raised this matter. I might say that last year something like 50,000 visitors signed the guest book. We have put two guides in. This year we are building there a museum that will cost something like $50,000.
I think that just goes to show you what a member can do if he works hard for his constituency.
Here was an area that had been neglected since confederation. When you walked into it, you found it was an area that was barren. There were no roads to speak of. There were no opportunities. The young people, as soon as they got out of school, were obliged to go and seek their livelihood in the great city of Winnipeg. Many of them found their way to Toronto and to the east, many of them going to the United States and so forth. So we saw that under the Liberals at least 50 per cent of the young people in the province were leaving and as far as the rural areas were concerned probably it was more like 90 per cent. Now, under this national development policy of this government through these public works and other projects we are trying to keep our young people at home with their families, where they can get married and raise families and find some opportunity. That is what our policy is designed for, namely, to treat all areas alike and to bring those that are underdeveloped up to the standards we can see elsewhere.
I could go on to talk about a large number of other things. There is the trans-Canada highway that runs through my riding. Several million dollars have been spent on it. There is a south and north perimenter road around the city of Winnipeg. The south perimeter road, of course, has been proceeded with and is being widened to four lanes, but in the north perimeter road we have not yet reached the stage of building the bridge across the river. I might say that, with the traffic pattern in the suburbs of Winnipeg, there is an increasing demand for this bridge and that the municipalities in the area are very much concerned about it. There is an oil refinery 
on one side and there is a great deal of traffic from the east to the west and from the west to the east as far as gravel trucks are concerned. Some of the best gravel is found on the east side. There is a great deal of crossing the river because of the mushrooming of the suburbs. The traffic patterns indicate that this bridge should be proceeded with at the earliest possible moment. This, of course, is not the decision for the federal government. It is rather a decision for the provincial government. However, I think the people in the area should know that we are very much concerned about the matter and that we are certainly going to see that this bridge is built at the earliest possible moment.
As I say, the Department of Public Works has been most kind to us. I might also say that it was not very easy to get all these things. It was not a matter of writing to the minister and saying that I want this or I want that. If he gave it, he wanted to know the reason for it. Often it was with the cooperation of municipalities in the area, and other groups there that we could bring the need before the people.
I think this record of accomplishment in Springfield is a record of which I can be proud. I am willing to place it against that of any other member of parliament who ever represented the riding and against all the members of parliament who represented the Liberal party in the riding since confederation. I should like to stack it up and see how it matches. I think it would match up very well. This area had been neglected for so long both by the provincial Liberals and the federal Liberals that it was inevitable that much of this had to be done, and we were the party that came out and did it. There were many things that the Liberals said could not be done. However, with a little bit of conscientious hard work, we did them.
I do not want to drag this discussion out, Mr. Chairman. I have a great deal more that I could say but I think most of it would not come under this department. In refutation of the member of the New Democratic party who talked about patronage, I should just like to say that if that little group over there did a little bit more hard work, a little bit less talking and became a little bit more concerned with individuals in the places in the riding, they too could have a record like this one to show their people.


Gordon Campbell Chown: I recognize the hon. member for Vancouver East,


Adrien Meunier: I wish to ask the minister this question. In his remarks a few minutes ago he gave statistics for the condition in

Montreal in 1961. I wish to ask him whether he was giving the figures for Montreal only or for metropolitan Montreal.


David James Walker: For metropolitan Montreal.


An hon. Member:: That is different.


Harold Edward Winch: Because I think it is the right thing to do, Mr. Chairman, I should like first of all to thank the Minister of Public Works and his deputy, General Young, for their courtesy in answering in connection with any problems I have raised with them since the last introduction of item No. 1 of the Department of Public Works. I am one of the relatively few members in the House of Commons who can rise in his place and speak on item No. 1 of the Department of Public Works in a particular way as I have not a federal building in Vancouver East. As a matter of fact, to my knowledge there is no federal public works expenditure in the entire set-up of Vancouver East. That is why I say I am one of the relatively few who can rise in his place and speak on this item when there is nothing spent in his riding. What may surprise you, Mr. Chairman, and the minister is that on behalf of Vancouver East and as its member here I am not asking for a federal building or for a post office or for any expenditure his department can make in my riding itself. I happen to represent a riding which is basically residential. In it there are only a few secondary industries and the harbour front.
What I have to say under this item is said on behalf of the city of Vancouver because what affects Vancouver has a definite effect on over 100,000 men, women and children who live within the boundaries of the federal constituency of Vancouver East. There are three matters which are of major concern, I believe, in Vancouver which either come under the jurisdiction of the Minister of Public Works or upon which he can give advice.
The first matter I want to raise is one on which I admit there might be a split jurisdiction or perhaps the matter might not come under the minister at all. He will tell me about that. I refer to the harbour development in Vancouver. Vancouver, as the minister knows, is the third largest city in Canada. It is not only the major western port of Canada but one of the most important western ports in North America. With the expansion of trade westward, Vancouver is now in the position where the harbour facilities are completely underdeveloped. If my memory is correct, Mr. Chairman, it has been some 20 years since one of the major harbour facilities owned by the Canadian Pacific was burnt down and it has never been replaced. Any of you who follow the western newspapers undoubtedly saw pictures in the past few 26207-1-904
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weeks showing ocean-going liners waiting at anchor in the inner harbour for a spot to load and unload cargo.
Vancouver East and Vancouver Centre are the boundaries of the harbour areas of Vancouver. One half of the harbour of Vancouver is in my riding. I would ask the Minister of Public Works, therefore, if it comes under his jurisdiction in any way whatever, and if there is any planning for federal government participation in harbour development in the city of Vancouver. I am afraid that perhaps the authority of the Minister of Public Works may only extend up to the tidal high-water mark. However, because of the prime importance of Vancouver to Canada, I hope he does not mind my raising the problem now. I am certain he is cognizant of it. If he has jurisdiction, then he will tell us of any planning. If, as I am led to believe, his authority does not extend beyond the tidal shore, he may have some influence with his colleagues in the cabinet.
The next matter, Mr. Chairman, I know comes completely within the jurisdiction of the Minister of Public Works. I am thinking of senior citizens housing, something of which I have been concerned and which I have been interested for many years. This is a major problem in the city of Vancouver. I know all cities and all provinces have this problem of housing for senior citizens. I know from facts, figures and studies that the city of Vancouver has the major problem because, situated as it is on the Pacific coast and having no extremes of heat or humidity in summer or freezing weather in winter, it has the greatest percentage of senior citizens of any major city in Canada. These people do not live their lives in British Columbia. They come to British Columbia in later years of life as old age pensioners or superannuates. The Vancouver city council is cognizant of the situation. The Vancouver city council, under the leadership of His Worship A. T. Alsbury, has been doing everything possible to work in cooperation with the province and Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation to make homes and apartments available for our senior citizens at rents which they can afford to pay.
I should like to ask the minister what his policy is, how far he is prepard to go and how far he has told Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation to go in co-operating with councils and provincial governments in supplying homes for our senior citizens. You may ask, Mr. Chairman, why I put the question in that way. I do so, sir, because of the communications I have received from the Vancouver city council, from His Worship A.T. Alsbury and communications from Dr. Bates of Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation. These communications have led
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me to believe that for some reason or other Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation is blocking the desire of the city of Vancouver to extend aid to its senior citizens. I know, and I want to be the first to admit, that there are a number of projects under way authorized by Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation.


David James Walker: May I answer the hon. member? I am very glad he has raised any matter that is in his mind. I can reassure him that not only Dr. Bates but all the officials of Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation are anxious and willing and have been cooperating with the officials of Vancouver in an earnest effort to get proper housing for the elderly. Anybody who is not politically prejudiced I think would be very happy to admit that. I know, of course, the hon. member for Vancouver East is not being political, he is just telling what somebody has told him. He wanted an answer, and I am happy to have been able to give him this answer.


Harold Edward Winch: I am very glad that the Minister of Public Works has said I am not politically prejudiced on this matter. I am sorry, though, that he said I am telling something I have been told. This infers I am basing my remarks on rumour. I should like to say I am making them on the basis of information supplied me by the Vancouver city council over the signature of his worship the mayor. This informs me that over 12 months ago the city and the provincial government passed authorization for construction of 300 additional units in the city of Vancouver. I am in receipt of a further communication to the effect that this program has been dropped because of no action, no authorization, after 12 months from central mortgage and housing. I think you will agree with me, Mr. Chairman, that as a member for the city of Vancouver and having that information over the name of his worship, the mayor of Vancouver, I should take it as pretty factual information. Moreover, I shall say I also have that over the name of Mr. Bates in a recent letter to me.
Why is it being held up? They state they are not quite certain whether there will be the need, or at least that is my interpretation of the letter. They want to wait until the 400 now under construction are completed. May I point out to the Minister of Public Works that the last analytical figures show that inside of 24 months the requirements for senior citizens will be approximately 5,000 of the type of homes that Vancouver wants to proceed with at an accelerated rate.
I know the interest of the Minister of Public Works in this matter. I know all that has


been done by Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation. Good heavens, I am the one man who should know it because my father and myself started the first of this type of house construction in Canada and we could never have done it without central mortgage and housing and their mortgages at very low rates of interest. I know what central mortgage and housing has done, but I say there is much more to be done, and I know the minister by supplementary estimates brings in additional millions of dollars for central mortgage. That is why I cannot understand why the city of Vancouver, the third largest city in Canada, and the province of British Columbia have been waiting for 12 months to go ahead with something that is blocked by central mortgage.


David James Walker: Perhaps the hon. member would read Dr. Bates' letter.


Harold Edward Winch: I would be very glad, sir. It will take me five or 10 minutes to get it down from my office but I shall be glad to read the three letters to the house, one from Vancouver council, one I received three weeks ago from Dr. Bates and the letter which I sent him two days ago furthering my plea to authorize the additional construction of senior citizens housing in Vancouver. In view of what the minister has just said I will not say anything more on that now but, sir, when we come to deal with that particular item I shall have all the documentation on this matter and will accept the invitation of the minister to read it to the house.
There is another item of major importance to us in Vancouver on which I would like to make a personal plea to the Minister of Public Works. I was most interested in the speech from the throne, part of which made reference to the government negotiating with the province of Quebec to remove the tolls on two bridges. That is a most worthy endeavour and I sincerely hope they are successful in removing those tolls because in this day and age toll bridges and toll highways are a curse on modem civilization and modem transportation.
Because of the peculiar circumstances in which the speech from the throne says that at this particular session, at this particular time, the government is going to negotiate with the province of Quebec about the removal of tolls on two bridges, and because of what that means to the great city of Montreal and the people in its environs, I would like to ask the minister: please will you take a look at the city of Vancouver in the province of British Columbia?
In Vancouver proper we have one third of the entire population of British Columbia; in

Vancouver metropolitan area we have almost one half of the entire population of British Columbia, and we are a city, an island, surrounded by toll bridges. Unless we travel via the Pattullo bridge at New Westminster, half a million of us cannot get out of Vancouver without paying a toll unless we go 62 miles up to the city of Mission and cross there on a combined road and railroad bridge. This is the list: First Narrows, a toll bridge; Second Narrows, two toll bridges; Oak Street, a toll bridge and the Deas tunnel, a toll tunnel. They are now putting up a new bridge at Port Mann, another toll bridge. I repeat, the only way we can get out of Vancouver without paying tolls is over the Pattullo bridge.


Mr. Macdonnell:: Would the hon. member permit a question?


Harold Edward Winch: Yes.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I understand him to be laying it down as a self-evident fact that toll bridges are a bad thing and ought to be disposed of.


Harold Edward Winch: Yes.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I wonder if that is necessarily so. I have not a fixed view on the matter but it does seem to me that where bridges are put up for the benefit of certain people it is fair that they should pay for them, and not the taxpayers at large. I do not want to inject myself into the hon. member's speech, but he stated that as a self-evident fact. I am not able to see it, but at the moment I am not able to make any effective argument against it.


Harold Edward Winch: I think with the taxation on gasoline, the taxation on tires, the taxation on automobiles, the taxation on oil and the taxation on licences it is a curse that in a city like Vancouver, with a population of half a million people, we cannot get out of that city without paying a toll.


David James Walker: I would point out, Mr. Chairman, we have nothing to do with tolls. We have no tolls.


Harold Edward Winch: The only route we can get out of Vancouver without paying tolls is over the Pattullo bridge-


Mr. McGraih:: On a point of order-


Harold Edward Winch: -because the government named the Pattullo bridge as a highway on the trans-Canada highway.


James Aloysius McGrath: On a point of order; the Minister of Public Works has raised a very valid point. Tolls are not the responsibility of the Department of Public Works.
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Harold Edward Winch: If that is so then I would like to know why the throne speech says this government is going to work with Montreal and Quebec to remove the tolls on two bridges in Montreal.


James Aloysius McGrath: We debated the throne
speech for eight days.


Harold Edward Winch: I am discussing the point you raised. If I am now out of order in discussing the matter of tolls then that sentence in the throne speech was out of order. I am glad that the government is entering into negotiations with the province of Quebec to remove tolls on two bridges in the city of Montreal but I would say "Please, Mr. Minister, will you not give some consideration to entering into negotiations with the province of British Columbia for the removal of tolls on those damned bridges that surround us"? Of course, we have one bridge which is free. It was built in 1936. I refer to the Pattullo bridge. The time-
The Depuly Chairman: Order. I have been allowing the hon. member a great deal of leeway on this particular point. The minister interjected briefly to state that his department was in no way responsible for the tolls that are charged on these particular bridges. For that reason I find it difficult to relate what the hon. member is saying to item No. 1 of the estimates of the Department of Public Works. The hon. member has made his case as a result of the leeway I have allowed him on the matter, and perhaps he could now turn to something else.


Harold Edward Winch: That is not necessary, Mr. Chairman; you have already given me the answer because you said I have made my case in appealing to the Minister of Public Works. We know from the debate on the speech from the throne that negotiations are being entered into with the government of Quebec, and I would ask the minister to please enter into negotiations with the government of British Columbia, not only with regard to the Pattullo bridge-that is all settled-but on the other bridges so that tolls may be removed and we will not be an island surrounded by bridges, having to pay out of our pockets for entering or leaving our own city, the third largest in Canada.


Mr. McDonald (Hamilton South):: Mr. Chairman, I should first like to congratulate the minister upon his excellent statement with regard to housing, public works, the trans-Canada highway and the national capital commission, I should like to raise two points in connection with the criticisms of hon. members of the opposition. The first matter

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concerns the remarks of the hon. member for Timiskaming about patronage in public works.
I hope that the minister in his remarks in this debate will make it perfectly clear that contracts for public buildings are put out to tender and the lowest tender gets the contract. The other point concerns the remarks of the hon. member for Levis. His irrelevant attack upon the minister with regard to highways, and so on, was just a way to conceal the good things that have been done by this government in the fields of public works and housing.
I should first like to dwell for a moment upon the broad housing policies of the Conservative government. I think this is one area in which we can take a great deal of pride for what this government has done in the past four and a half years.
I should like to dwell upon the financial situation and cite the metropolitan area of Hamilton, Ontario, as an example of the dynamic way in which this government has dealt with the housing situation in the country. An hon. Liberal member said there was a shortage of money in 1956 and 1957. This is the fact. The lending institutions across the country entered the commercial and industrial lending fields, thereby drying up the lower interest yield on mortgage money for housing and forcing this government to enter the house lending business on a large scale.
I think the Liberal regime was well aware of this drying up of capital in the latter part of 1956 and the early part of 1957, and I think they should have taken a lead in starting direct lending well in advance of June 10, 1957. However, I am sure it was not their intention to let the people know of the economic report that was concealed, which indicated the cyclical decline of housing construction and a forecast of a further decline in the future.
I should also like to comment upon the fact that the approved lending institutions in Hamilton loaned $63 million from 1957 to the end of 1961. As far as limited dividend corporation loans are concerned, in that period $3,738,172 were loaned in Hamilton. This is in regard to privately owned limited dividend corporations which are providing homes for senior citizens. With regard to direct loans by C.M.H.C. to private individuals and private lending corporations, a total of $31,170,472 were loaned.
I am sure that the ambitious city of Hamilton has been greatly assisted in their progressive construction in housing, with loans totalling $97,936,000. This figure excludes direct lending from trust or insurance companies not on approved lending lists, and conventional loans. I am sure that if this

government had not gone into the lending field in a direct way, in the way it did when it started lending $150 million directly and eventually brought the figure up to $2 billion, many builders in this country would have gone bankrupt through lack of funds.
I think the Minister of Public Works, his department and C.M.H.C. should be commended for doing a very fine job in this regard. Next I should like to talk about Central Housing and Mortgage Corporation. I was rather surprised to hear the hon. member for Vancouver east say that C.M.H.C. has been blocking loans for senior citizens homes-


Harold Edward Winch: They blocked one in Vancouver.


Robert Matthew Turnbull McDonald: I gathered form the intensity of the hon. member's attack that he was very disturbed about these loans that were proposed to be blocked by C.M.H.C. In Hamilton loans applications that have been put through our city council, they have received the acknowledgement of the federal government, have passed through C.M.H.C. in a matter of days and in fact these dwellings have been built and people are living in them. I am speaking of senior citizens dwellings, limited dividend loans incomes ranging between $3,000 and $4,200 a year, and federal-provincial housing for those with income levels from $2,950 and less a year to $5,800 a year. With these income levels people cannot afford today to buy their own home because of the lack of capital, and with their low earnings they cannot acquire a mortgage.
In the city of Hamilton we have a very large program in this respect. There are some 1,200 federal-provincial homes in my riding. This program is operating very effectively, with a small waiting list. As far as limited dividend private corporation loans in Hamilton are concerned, the list is completely filled with people within the proper incomes. There is also a small waiting list in this category.
As far as urban renewal expansion and development is concerned, in the city of Hamilton, as in other parts of the country, I think this government is very aware of all the ramifications and problems that we are going to run into. Hamilton took a lead by setting up an urban renewal committee. This committee was designed to get the ball rolling in Hamilton as far as urban renewal was concerned. The initial impetus in regard to urban renewal must come from the municipalities. The federal government and C.M.H.C. can give assistance and provide people who are able to go out and help, but initially the initial effort must come from the municipalities.

The federal government is interested in a person who may be uprooted because of urban renewal, and it is of the utmost importance that the federal government should look after the individual to ensure that he is protected in every way and will not be thrown out of his home in a very haphazard way if it is blighted. In the past 18 months Hamilton has undertaken the clearance study of 278 acres. This program is under consideration at the present time by the provincial authority in Toronto. There are problems which will arise because of this redevelopment. One of the problems is, not that the federal government has not dealt in a forward looking way with urban renewal but the problems that arise in this regard that may be of interest to the committee. The act now states that urban renewal is for the clearance of slum or blight areas, the relocation of homes and the development of new housing accommodation, but there is no section in the act which indicates that in an area of blight or semi-deterioration where a large area is cleared, where schools and recreational facilities are needed, the clearance of these areas for these facilities comes under the National Housing Act. I would hope that the officials of C.M.H.C. would look into the aspects of an integral part of the redevelopment of certain areas so that not only housing could be used for the redevelopment but schools and recreation areas. Possibly there could be a relocation of traffic through the tearing down of blighted areas so that we could go even further in the vast scope of urban renewal.
The next point I should like to deal with for a moment concerns the cost of land in the country as a whole. Everyone knows it is going up and up. But I want to point out one thing which this government has done, and I think it has a direct relationship to the cost of land. In the bill which was passed here some 18 months ago that made available sewer loans to the municipalities, hidden in this type of legislation is a thought to reduce the cost of land. In the constituency that I represent we were very fortunate that out of $40 million of initial loans for sewerage receptacles and sewage disposal plants we had over $2 million, showing the progressive way in which the city council of Hamilton is taking advantage of this legislation.
But there is a larger scope in land servicing. The reason that land costs are high is that services have been creeping steadily out of the centre of the city, thereby putting a high premium price on that land near where the services are being constructed. Under the legislation which was passed some time ago providing for the availability of long term
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sewer loans to the municipalities, the legislation allowed for servicing large tracks of land, where desirable, so as to open up vast tracks of land, thereby putting a glut on the market and forcing the price down because of the number of lots that would be available. This is an example of the supply and demand theory.
I hope that the federal government on March 31, 1963 will take a look at the long term program of federal sewage loans. I think this will help the cost of land and do a good job in the long run.
In Hamilton as a whole we have had practically everything in the housing field. We have had federal-provincial housing, limited dividend lending, direct corporation lending, approved lending, sewer loans and even land assembly. There are a number of pro and con thoughts on land assembly. There are many builders, in private enterprise, who believe in land assembly and some who are private enterprisers who do not believe in it. But 540 lots in Hamilton south were done two years ago. I do not want to argue the pros and cons of land assembly, but I do know there are 500 homes in my constituency that are there and built. It is a beautiful survey. It is a pleasure for parents to bring up their children in this type of assembly because the municipality has built beautiful schools and park areas have been correlated in this development.
I should like to congratulate C.M.H.C. on the sale of mortgages to private institutions. I think this is a good thing and I hope it will continue in the future.
The next subject I should like to dwell on is over-all public works as pertaining to Hamilton south and Hamilton as a whole. Hamilton, as I am sure everyone knows, is a progessive city. It has the third largest tonnage harbour in Canada although it is a great distance from the sea. The federal government has recognized this fact, and from the point of view of harbour expenditure I think it is second to none in relation to the population of the area. So far as dredging is concerned, since 1957 there has been some $2,245,000 spent on dredging down in the Hamilton area to keep the channel open. So far as public works are concerned, Hamilton is a conservative stronghold. We have all Conservative members and we work as a team to develop the harbour and to develop the public works. There will be some-


An hon. Member:: Oh, oh.


Robert Matthew Turnbull McDonald: If the hon. member who represents one of the Ontario constituencies-I believe it is Timmins- would like to get up and contribute to the debate and tell us what he thinks of housing,
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I am sure we would be happy to hear from him.
As far as public buildings are concerned we were fortunate that a long time ago post offices and other public buildings were built, but a little over a million dollars worth of additions have been done in the past short while.
I should like to pay a tribute to the hon. member for Wentworth. I am sorry he is not in the house tonight; I think he has another engagement. For many years in his constituency the entrance of the Hamilton harbour has been a very vexing point. A couple of ships ran into the old bridge and blocked the harbour for some time. Through the persistence of this hon. member I believe a new low level bridge costing $5,122,960 will be opened this year. I think it is really due to the personal efforts of this member that this is being done.
As far as the harbour and river facilities estimates are concerned there is provision for the expenditure of some $7,438,000 in the Hamilton area as a whole and I should like to tell the minister through you, Mr. Chairman, that we are very appreciative in Hamilton not of just being given money but also very appreciative of getting the money that is developing our community into one of the strongest economic units in the country in the whole area of housing, and harbour and bridge construction. I think it is proving that the Conservative government is on the right track. It has not left Hamilton behind.
I cannot stress too much the importance of the minister's taking up with C.M.H.C. the sections of the National Housing Act with regard to urban renewal. I have sat on the urban renewal committee in Hamilton as the federal representative and I have learned a great deal from this, but I find that there are some loopholes which I think can be cured very easily so that when a city or municipality is designing an urban renewal area they can go into the whole ramifications of schools, recreation facilities, churches and so on, along with housing and apartment dwellings in that area.
I should like to take this opportunity of saying that C.M.H.C. in the constituency which I represent and in Hamilton as a whole has done a great job and the co-operation they have given, in an unprejudiced and unpolitical way to, I think, every member Of the house is appreciated. They should be congratulated, and I hope they will continue their good work in the future.


Mr. Carter:: I should like to begin my remarks in this debate by expressing my thanks to the minister and his staff for the very kind and, for the most part, sympathetic consideration they have given to the problems
[Mr. McDonald (Hamilton South) .1

I have brought before them on behalf of my constituents. I should like to take this opportunity also of expressing my appreciation to the staff of the minister's department, both the senior officials here and the officials in the district office in our province. They have always been most co-operative and most sympathetic and have gone out of their way on many occasions to do everything possible to alleviate the problems that I have had to bring before them. The minister is very fortunate in having such competent and devoted officials at the disposal of his department.
When I listened to the minister opening the debate on this item I must say he sounded to me much more like the minister for housing than the Minister of Public Works. Housing is of course, a very important activity in the minister's department and also in the economic life of our country. Housing is one of the very best ways of priming the pump when our economy slows down. The minister has told us that a great deal has been done in that direction under this government. As I listened to the minister it was not clear to me whether the aim of the government's housing policy was to create jobs or to build needed homes. One can understand that under the economic conditions which we have experienced during the past few years a delicate balance has perhaps had to be achieved between the two.
In a free enterprise country when a government has to go so deeply into the housing business there is raised in my mind a question as to whether the economic and fiscal policies followed by the government are sound. The prime purpose of every national government is to create a climate in which private enterprise can operate to fill the needs of the people. Housing is a legitimate function of private enterprise. If it is impossible for them to carry out this normal function I think we should take a second look to see whether this is due to our failure to provide the proper climate and whether the fiscal policies pursued by the government have something to do with it.
The minister took great pride in what this government has accomplished in the field of housing. I cannot share his enthusiasm in this respect. For a national policy which is designed to apply to all parts of the nation and to treat every part of the nation alike, the figures the minister placed on Hansard this afternoon certainly show this is not being done.
He told us that in the country as a whole aggregate loans under C.M.H.C. totalled $3,271 million. Then he went on to tell us that 50 per cent of this amount had gone to one province. Out of the aggregate a total of $1,600

million went to Ontario alone, while loans in all the Atlantic provinces totalled only $120 million.


William Joseph Browne: No, not the
amount available.


Chesley William Carter: These are the figures the minister placed on the record. As I understood the minister, of the aggregate of $3,271 million a total of $1,600 million went to Ontario and $120 million went to the Atlantic provinces.


William Joseph Browne: They could have had more.


David James Walker: The hon. member knows very well that we have to receive applications. After all, we do not go about soliciting applications. Unless the provinces make applications on their own through the various channels there is nothing we can do about it. Surely there is no criticism of that. We make a special point of doing all we can to assist the Atlantic provinces.


Chesley William Carter: I quite understand that, Mr. Chairman, and I was not criticizing the minister. I was criticizing the way the policy has worked out in one part of Canada compared with another. We know that people must apply. If they do not apply in the Atlantic provinces it is because they cannot afford to apply. That is what I am complaining about. The great national policy, so called, of which the minister is so proud actually operates to favour the rich provinces. A wealthy province like Ontario can take advantage of it but poor provinces like the Atlantic provinces are not in a position to take advantage of it. That is why the people of the Atlantic provinces do not apply. They would apply just as readily as the people of Ontario if they could afford to do so.
I believe a national policy applied to the whole nation should be designed to operate in such a way as to take into account the economic differences in the various regions and not to favour the rich at the expense of the poor.
Even if we considered it as the minister seemed to do this afternoon as a means of creating employment, the need in the Atlantic provinces is much greater than in Ontario. The minister of finance for Ontario has said the employment situation is better in Ontario than in Canada as a whole and better than in the United States. Let us understand that that is not so in the Atlantic provinces. Approximately 13 per cent of our people are out of work now and probably 25 or 30 per cent of them will be out of work before the winter is over.
Business of the House


George Clyde Nowlan: What month is this?


Chesley William Carter: Well, we have that situation every winter. In my province we have up to 30 per cent of the work force out of work in the winter.


David James Walker: The hon. member appreciates, of course, that this government has spent annually three times the amount that was spent on public works under the previous administration. Also on a per capita basis the amount of money spent in Newfoundland is many times greater than the amount spent per capita in Ontario. In addition the gifts of capital expenditures in the Atlantic provinces and particularly the province of Newfoundland-


Maurice Bourget: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, the minister has no right to rise in this chamber and interrupt the hon. gentleman who has the floor.


David James Walker: Is the hon. member for Levis the leader of the house? If so, since when? The hon. gentleman has not raised a point of order.


Maurice Bourget: The minister is not the chairman. The minister cannot make rulings.


Gordon Campbell Chown: Order. I assume that the hon. member for Burin-Burgeo yielded the floor to the minister although I was not following the discussion closely at that point. However, it being ten o'clock-


Chesley William Carter: Mr. Chairman, may I speak to the point of order?


Gordon Campbell Chown: There is no point of order. I see that it is ten o'clock so I will rise and report progress. If the hon. member wishes to refer to this when he resumes tomorrow after orders of the day he may do so.
Item stands.
Progress reported.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Maurice Bourget: Mr. Speaker, may I inquire of the acting house leader the order of business for tomorrow and Monday?


George Clyde Nowlan: Mr. Speaker, we shall continue tomorrow with the discussion of the estimates of the Department of Public Works which hon. gentlemen opposite have been examining in such a friendly mood this evening. I am waiting for the hon. member for Burin-Burgeo to explain tomorrow how unemployment in his province will affect 25 per cent of the work force in March, at the opening of this month.
I am not in a position to give the numbers of the bills with which we will deal on

Business of the House
Monday, but on Monday and Tuesday we will deal with legislation. We will commence by taking up some of the items on the order paper standing in the name of the Minister of Finance. I will detail them tomorrow when the house rises.


Maurice Bourget: I thank the minister.


George Clyde Nowlan: I might say this. If we should finish the estimates of the Department of Public Works tomorrow, as I am sure we
shall-I am amazed that we did not finish them today in view of the friendly position which the Minister of Public Works has taken on television and in this house-following their completion tomorrow morning we shall then go on with northern affairs tomorrow afternoon.


[Stage Direction]
It being three minutes after ten o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[Stage Direction]
Friday, March 2, 1962