1962-10-22

Mr. Jack McIntosh (Swift Current-Maple Creek) moved: the first reading of Bill No. C-69, to amend the Civil Service Act (bureaucratic oppression).


Some hon. Members:: Explain.


John (Jack) McIntosh: Mr. Speaker, I have reason to believe that some officials of the government by virtue of their office have on occasion knowingly deprived certain citizens of their rights declared under provisions of the Canadian statutes. I believe these officials have knowingly withheld these rights or refused the implementation of these rights until the citizens have been bent to the officials' will.
At present there is no penalty for such bureaucratic oppression. This bill will provide a penalty if guilt of such action can be established.


Mr. Speaker:: I am glad the hon. member got to the purpose of his bill.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. Thompson: 1.	Since March 1, 1962, what total amount has been spent by the federal government on the national physical fitness program?
2.	What payment has been made to date to each province as (a) basic grant (b) per capita grant?
3.	What projects have been undertaken by the federal government under the physical fitness program?
4.	What projects have been undertaken by each province?
Answer by: Mrs. Casselman:
1.	Expenditures under the Fitness and Amateur Sport Act from March 1 to September 30, 1962, were $682,532.
2.	Grants made to provinces were-
	(a)	(b)	
		Per Capita	
Basic Amount	Amount	TotalNewfoundland 	$ 1,779	$ 16,779Prince Edward Island 	400	15,400Nova Scotia 	2,810	17,810New Brunswick 	2,289	17,289Ontario 	23,898	38,898Manitoba 	3,531	18,531Saskatchewan 	3,509	18,509Alberta 	5,174	20,174British Columbia 	
15,000	6,247	21,247Yukon 	57	15,057Northwest Territories 	
15,000	91	15,091Total 	.$ 214,785
Questions
3.	Projects assisted through direct federal grants to agencies since March 1, 1962 are as follows:
1.	Amateur Athletic Union of Canada:
(a)	Boxing. To participate in the United States championships	$	1,000
Ob) Fencing. To participate in the United States championships	 500
(c)	Gymnastics, (i) To participate in the United States championships ..	2,000(ii)	To participate in the world championships	
8,000(iii) To hold five coaching schools in Canada	
5,000(iv) To participate in the Canadian championships	
5,000(d)	Track and field athletics. To develop a national standards plan .. 2,000(e)	Weightlifting, (i) To send a team to the world championships in theUnited States	
1,500
(ii) Additional grant when the world championships were relocated
in Budapest		750
(f)	Wrestling. To send a team to the world championships in Toledo,
U.S.A	   1,500
(g)	National championships. To conduct national championships in track
and field athletics, handball, fencing, weightlifting and wrestling ..	16,677
2.	British Empire and Commonwealth Games Association of Canada:
To participate in games to be held in Australia in November	 30,000
3.	Canadian Amateur Basketball Association:
(a)	To improve coaching standards; Ob) To assist in Conducting a national
instructors'	school		   5,000
4.	Canadian Amateur Ski Association:
To conduct a cross-country ski instructors' school	 5,000
5.	Canadian Amateur Speed Skating Association:
To promote speed skating in Canada	 8,000
6.	Canadian Amateur Swimming Association:
(a)	To send Miss M. Stewart to the United States championships	350(b)	To send teams to compete in United States events	
3,000(c)	To conduct coaches' clinics	
350(d)	To conduct final training sessions for the British Empire and Commonwealth	games	
7507.	Canadian Association of Amateur Oarsmen:To send crews to the world championships in Lucerne, Switzerland ....	10,0008.	Canadian Amateur Badminton Association:To assist in holding the Canadian championships in Montreal	
1,5009.	Canadian Canoe Association:To send a team to the world championships in Essen, West Germany ....	1,80010.	Canadian Civilian Association of Marksmen:To send a team to the world championships in Cairo, Egypt	
15,00011.	Canadian Field Hockey Association:(a)	To organize east-west championships in Toronto; (b) To send a teamto the international matches in New York	
1,90012.	Canadian Ladies' Golf Union:
(a) To extend the junior development program; (b) To send a team to
national and international competitions	 10,000
13.	Canadian Lawn Tennis Association:
To conduct developmental programs	 18,000
14.	Canadian Table Tennis Association:
To assist four provincial teams to compete in the national championships 750

Questions
15.	Canadian Volleyball Association:
To strengthen the organizational structure of the association	 l 500
16.	Royal Canadian Golf Association:
To send a team to the world championships	 5;000
17.	Rugby Tours Committee of Canada
To send a team to compete in the British isles	 10,000
18.	Canadian Ski Patrol
To expand and develop the ski patrol system	 9,000
19.	Canadian Youth Hostels:
To establish a national administrative headquarters	 10,000
20.	Young Men's Christian Association:
(a)	To extend the offerings of the physical education leaders' training
camP	  1,3900
(b)	To extend the offering of the annual Young Men's Christian Association physical director's skill school	 5 038
21.	Young Women's Christian Association:
(a)	To assist in the provision of a refresher course for health and physical education staff; (b) To assist in the provision of a leadership course for present	and potential staff	 21,810
22.	Canadian Wildlife Association:
To establish a national office in Ottawa	 20,000
23.	Royal Canadian Legion:
(a) To provide a ten-day track and field clinic for coaches; (b) To
organize the national track and field championship	 50,000
24.	Canadian National Exhibition:
To conduct a national fitness festival at the Canadian national exhibition
in August, 1962	 50,000
25.	Calgary Olympic Development Association:
To assist the association in its bid for the 1968 Olympic games to be held
at Banff national park, Alberta	 35 000
26.	University of Ottawa:
(a)	To assist fitness research	 12 732
(b)	To establish and maintain in co-operation with UNESCO, a research
information centre in respect of fitness and amateur sport	 5,000
27.	University of Alberta:
To assist fitness research	 17 750
28.	University of Montreal:
To assist fitness research	 18 goo
29.	Scholarships and fellowships:
Postgraduate scholarships and fellowships in the field of fitness and amateur sport in an amount of $72,350, have been granted to 39 persons. Of this total amount there has so far been expended	$ 41,600
Total


$467,747 HOUSE OF COMMONS
[Stage Direction]
Questions
In addition to the above, projects undertaken through direct federal grants
totalling	 15,285
To agencies in February, 1962, were as follows:-
1.	Canadian Amateur Ski Association:
To assist in sending a team to the European championships	$9,785
2.	Canadian Wheelmens' Association:
To assist in sending a team to the Tour de France de l'Avenir .. 5,000
3.	Canadian Amateur Speedskating Association:
To assist in sending a competitior to the world championships
in Moscow	 500
Total of direct federal grants	$483,032
4.	The provincial governments have not yet submitted projects for approval under the Fitness and Amateur Sport Act.
A federal-provincial conference was held in Ottawa on September 28, 1962 for the purpose of discussing a draft agreement. Following the signing of such an agreement a province may submit projects for approval and reimbursement.

Mr. Laing: In connection with Fraserview veterans' housing development in Vancouver:
1.	How many houses are involved in this development?
2.	What was the total cost of all services installed and houses built in this project?
3.	When was construction started, and when was the last house completed?
4.	What was interest rate of the money advanced to Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation for this project?
5.	What rate of depreciation has been charged against (a) the houses (b) the services, since completion?
6.	Since inauguration of the project, what total rentals have been received by C.M.H.C.?
7.	Since inauguration, what total taxes have been paid the city of Vancouver under the agreement?
8.	Since inauguration, what has been the total expenditure in repairs and maintenance of this project?
9.	Are the houses being offered for sale and, if so, at what prices, by plan?
10.	How many houses have been sold to date?
11.	Since inauguration of the project, what has been the total of uncollected rents?
12.	What are the conditions of sale, e.g., down payment, mortgage grant and at what rate of interest, over what period, etc.?
13.	Have any circulars been issued to tenants cautioning the installation of improvements and advocating early purchase?
14.	Have any houses been withheld from rental in anticipation of sale?
15.	How many houses are at present unoccupied?
16.	In how many instances has property been recovered for default in payment?
17.	Have any rentals or sales been made to persons who are not veterans?
Answer by: Mr. McCleave:
(1)	1137 houses constructed
9 existing houses on site
1146 total.
[Mrs. Casselman.)
(2)	Cost of land	$	1,202,389.62
Cost of all services ....	2,241,751.65
Cost of houses	 7,896,311.02
Total	$ 11,340,452.29
(3)	Construction started on July 16, 1949. The last house was completed on November 9, 1953.
(4)	This project was financed under section 37, N.H.A. at a borrowing rate of 2 per cent per annum.
(5)	The annual rate of depreciation charged against houses and services since completion is 2J per cent straight line.
(6)	It is not possible to provide the information requested in this part because the accounting has been on an over-all branch basis with reference to single houses and not on a project basis. Nor is it possible to recreate the accounting on a project basis because records have been destroyed from time to time in accordance with the policy relating to such matters, as the retention period for the various classes of documents involved has expired.
(7)	Total taxes paid to the city of Vancouver from 1950 to 1962-$1,541,051.38 as determined by city records.
(8)	See answer to (6) above.
(9)	All houses in this project have been on sale since May 1, 1959 at the following prices: 4 room small bungalow without basement, $8,300; 4 room large bungalow without basement, $8,600; 4 room small bungalow with basement, $8,800; 4 room large bungalow with basement, $9,400; 5 room 2-storey with

Questions
basement, $9,500; 5 room bungalow without basement, $9,800; 5 room bungalow with basement, $10,600; 5 room 1J storey semi-basement, $10,700; 5 room li storey with basement, $10,800; 6 room li storey with basement $10,900. Existing houses, $6,000-$9,800.
(10)	409 constructed houses and 6 existing houses have been sold to October 1, 1962.
(11)	See answer to (6) above.
(12)	Conditions of sale are: Down payment -5 per cent of sale price. Interest rate-The National Housing Act rate in effect at time of sale, which is currently 6i per cent. Term of mortgage-maximum 25 years. Rebate: $1,000 added to the amount of the sales prices which are listed in answer to (9) above, to be earned over 5 years at the rate of l/60th for each completed month of occupancy.
(13)	Yes.
(14)	Yes.
(15)	As at October 2, there were 16 houses unoccupied. Of this total, 7 houses became vacant on September 30.
(16)	One.
(17)	No.


* FITNESS AND AMATEUR SPORT
Mr. Roxburgh: 1.	How much of the $5,000,000 authorized for the fiscal year 1962-63 to encourage, promote and develop fitness and sport has been spent or allocated to date? What amount, if any, has been granted to each province to date by the national advisory council on fitness and amateur sport?
2.	If a grant or grants were made, what part of each grant or grants to each province was spent on capital equipment for sporting facilities, and what part or parts went to pay for services?
3.	Has the government any existing definite plan to promote the development of permanent sporting facilities such as stadia, track and playing fields, swimming pools and so forth?


Mrs. Casselman:: 1. (a) Expenditures under the Fitness and Amateur Sport Act from April 1 to September 30, 1962, were $439,578.
(b) A total of $250,000 was made available to the provinces in the form of planning and organization grants at the commencement of the fiscal year. Of this amount $214,785 had been paid to the provinces by September 30, 1962, and all provinces had received the grant except the province of Quebec from which a request has not yet been received. The amount paid to each province
concerned is as follows:
Newfoundland	 $16,779
Prince Edward Island ....	15,400
Nova Scotia	 17,810
New Brunswick	 17,289
Ontario	 38,898
Manitoba	  18,531
Saskatchewan	 18,509
Alberta	 20,174
British Columbia	 21,247
Yukon	 15,057
Northwest Territories	 15,091
(c)	A second allocation of $250,000 is now being made available to the provinces, subject to their signing agreements with the federal government, for expenditure under the terms of and for the objectives prescribed by the Fitness and Amateur Sport Act. Each province will be eligible to receive the same amount as under the planning and organization grants.
2.	The grants made and referred to in answer 1(b) were for planning and organizational purposes in developing programs and were not for expenditure on capital equipment.
3.	The question of providing facilities under the new program has been discussed at the meetings of the national advisory council on fitness and amateur sport and of the federal-provincial conferences. Emphasis has been on the questions of provincial and regional facilities. The Atlantic provinces have been discussing the possibility of a regional coaching and leadership training centre for their area and the federal government has made provision in the federal-provincial agreements for pooling funds for such joint projects. The question of provincial and regional coaching and leadership training facilities will be the subject of further discussions with the provincial authorities interested in developing such centres.
In the case of local facilities government policy has been to encourage the use of the municipal winter works program to assist in the construction of recreational and sports facilities rather than to use funds under the fitness and amateur sport program at this stage in the development of the program. In the fiscal year 1961-62 some $3.8 million in federal funds were spent in this manner for projects involving a total expenditure of some $15 million. This program has the dual advantage of increasing seasonal employment and developing sports and recreational facilities. The department has prepared a booklet on swimming pool facilities to be distributed this year to assist communities which plan to build these facilities. It may be that the department can be of assistance in respect of other projects, and close liaison is being maintained with the Department of Labour in connection with this aspect of the winter works program.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. In the event that there should be any further replies of the length we have now had, perhaps hon. ministers and

Questions
those persons replying would seek the cooperation of the house in having the answer printed as though read; otherwise we will be here a long time.


VALLEYFIELD, QUE.  REMOVAL OF R.C.M.P. OFFICES
Mr. Laniel: 1.	Has the Minister of Justice received a resolution, addressed by the chamber of commerce of Valleyfield, stating how regrettable the decision was of the department to move the Royal Canadian Mounted Police offices from Valleyfield to Huntingdon?
2.	Would the minister tell the house the grounds on which such a decision was reached in view of the fact that the other federal government services are already located at Valleyfield and that the city has the only court of justice in the area?
Answer by: Mr. Bell (Saint John-Albert):
1.	Yes.
2.	Action was taken in this respect solely in the interests of administrative efficiency and necessary economy.


LANDING STRIP, ANTIGONISH AREA, N.S.
Mr. Stewart: 1.	Have officials of the Department of Transport had correspondence or conversations with any person or persons concerning either the public or private construction of a landing strip or other aeronautical facility in the Antigonish, Mulgrave, and Port Hawkesbury areas of Nova Scotia?
2.	If so, with whom, when, and is this matter presently under examination or consideration?
Answer by: Mr. McBain:
1.	Antigonish-Yes.
Mulgrave-No.
Port Hawkesbury-Yes.
2.	(a) (i) Antigonish-Doctor McNeil to director of civil aviation-February 11, 1961; director of civil aviation to Doctor McNeil- February 17, 1961.
(ii) No further action is being taken at present pending an application from the town of Antigonish for cost sharing assistance.
(b)	(i) Port Hawkesbury-director of community planning, department of municipal affairs, Halifax, N.S., discussion with regional director, air services, Moncton, N.B.;-March, 1960; W. H. F. Langley, chairman Richmond-Inverness metropolitan planning commission to regional director, civil aviation, Moncton, N.B.-September 12, 1960; Meeting with members of above commission attended by regional superintendent of airways and regional construction engineer, Moncton, N.B.,-October 27, 1960.
(ii) No further action is being taken at present pending an application from the commission for cost sharing assistance.
[Mr. Speaker.)


T.C.A.-REVENUE, VANCOUVER-VICTORIA RUN
Mr. Laing: What was total revenue on the Vancouver-Vic-toria run of T.C.A. In the years 1960, 1961, and in the first six months of 1962?


Mr. Laing:: Mr. Speaker, could I have permission to withdraw this question?


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member requests permission to withdraw his question. Agreed?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
Order discharged and question withdrawn.


KINGSTON PRISON FOR WOMEN
Mr. Matheson: 1.	Has the Department of Justice received any indication that a breakdown of discipline has occurred at the prison for women, Kingston?
2.	Are adequate precautions in effect to prevent improper practices among inmates?
3.	Have certain inmates successfully refused to work and, if so, what punishment has been administered?
4.	Has Superintendent Isobel J. MacNeill (a) been struck by inmates and. if so, when (b) received medical or X-ray examination as a result of injuries received and, if so, when?
Answer by: Mr. Bell (Saint John-Alberl):
1.	No.
2.	As adequate as are practicable in the accommodation available.
3.	Yes, certain inmates under psychiatric treatment have refused to work on occasions. The were not punished. One other inmate, a young and aggressive type, refused to work and, as punishment, was denied certain privileges.
4.	Yes (a) on August 15, Miss MacNeill restrained an inmate, who has homicidal tendencies, from attacking a member of the staff. Miss MacNeill fell to the floor, pulling the inmate with her. (b) Miss MacNeill was examined by the institutional doctor and was given an X-ray examination at the armed forces hospital at Barriefield on August 16. Fortunately, there were no serious injuries.


MEDIUM AND MINIMUM SECURITY INSTITUTIONS
Mr. Matheson: 1.	Did the Department of Justice examine the correctional institutions at Camp Bison, Camp Hendrie, Hillsdale, and McCreight's Dam and, if so, when?
2.	Has the government announced plans for the construction of (a) similar camps throughout the dominion (b) other medium or minimum security institutions; and, if so, which of these announced programs (i) have been completed (ii) are in the process of completion (iii) are being postponed by reason of austerity?
Answer by: Mr. Bell (Saint John-Alberi):
1.	Yes-Camp Hendrie and Hillsdale were examined in July 1960. 2. (a) No. (b) Yes- 6 medium and 15 minimum security institutions, (i) 10 minimum, (ii) 4 medium-5 minimum, (iii) 2 medium.


NORTHERN TRANSPORTATION CO. LTD.
Mr. Nielsen: 1.	What are the tons and ton miles of freight moved on equipment owned by Northern Transportation Company Ltd., and licensed by the board of transport commissioners for Canada, during the years 1959, 1960, and 1961, tabulated as follows:
(a)	total from and to all points within the company system northbound (b) total from and to all points within the company system southbound (c) from Fort Smith, N.W.T., to all points within the Northwest Territories (d) from Hay river, N.W.T., to all points within the Northwest Territories (e) from Hay river, N.W.T., and Fort Smith, N.W.T., destined for distant early warning station sites (f) from Norman Wells, N.W.T., destined for the distant early warning station sites (g) from Norman Wells to all other points within the Northwest Territories?
2.	Of the total tonnage and ton miles moved within the Northwest Territories, what percentage of each of these totals was moved for (a) crown corporations (b) Canadian government departments (c) distant early warning station sites (d) consignees other than above?
3.	What gross revenue was earned by N.T.C.L., in each year. 1959, 1960, and 1961, from the carriage
Questions
of goods within the N.W.T., tabulated as follows:
(a)	goods carried for crown corporations (b) goods carried for Canadian government departments (c) goods carried to distant early warning station sites (d) goods carried for consignees other than (a).
(b)	or (c)?
4.	Of the total tonnage provided for carriage by the Northern Transportation Company Ltd., what tonnage was allocated to Canadian (private enterprise) carriers, licensed by the board of transport commissioners for Canada, by the N.T.C.L., for movement within the N.W.T., during the years 1959, 1960, and 1961?
5.	What sources of revenue has northern transportation other than by the carriage of goods by water?
6.	Other than transportation operations, what business activities are carried on by Northern Transportation Company Ltd.?
7.	What is the yearly statement of income and expenditures, in tabulated form, in totals and in cents per ton mile, for the years, 1956, 1957, 1958, 1959, 1960, and 1961, of yearly (a) freight earnings
(b)	miscellaneous earnings, other than freight revenue (c) operating expenses (d) administrative expenses (e) depreciation (f) operating profit (g) income tax paid (h) net profit?
Answer by: Mr. Nesbiti:
		Tons	Ton Miles
1- (a)	Total N/B	152,944	69,802,348(6) (c)	Total S/B	
Thru Ft. Smith-all	19,731	4,403,197m	pts. N.W.T	
Hay River-all pts.	25,004	19,526,652N.W.T	9,552	9,795,720Hay River-Dew Line	7,345	8,241,090to	Ft. Smith-Dew Line Norman Wells-Dew	3,840	5,233,920(iQ)	Line	
Norman Wells-all	4,286	2,275,866other pts. N.W.T	
!-Percentage of Tons and Ton Miles	20,279	4,746,705(<*) (b)	Crown Corporation... Government Depart-	18.79%	20.23%(c)	ments	8.04	7.92D.E.W. Line	29.04	42.96W	Other Consignees	44.13	28.89I960	1961Tons	Ton Miles	Tons	Ton Miles118,015	51,381,444	104,252	45,181,02823,279	9,289,800	22,966	9,335,17118,055	13,259,660	9,590	8,817,0297,082	7,197,169	6,793	6,123,3345,669	6,360,618	3,737	4,192,9142,810	3,830,030	1,782	2,428,8666,144	2,262,464	11,234	6,009,99311,993	6,637,413	12,878	7,642,0225.97%	6.37%	0.78%	1.18%11.61	11.14	14.31	12.9732.51	41.33	38.99	41.7449.91	41.16	45.92	44.11 '
100.00% 100.00% 100.00% 100.00% 100.00% 100.00%
3-Gross Revenue within N.W.T.
(a)	Crown corporations...
(b)	Government Departments	
(c)	D.E.W. line	
(d)	Other consignees...
1959	1960	1961	437,779	123,825	18,442	155,399	187,217	214,012	682,857	523,028	498,983	608,549	494,192	529,981	1,884,584	1,328,262	1,261,418	Nil	Nil	Nil	
5-Rental of marine equipment. Rental of ancillary equipment.
Interest revenue.
6-No other business activities.
758	HOUSE OF COMMONS Questions		
1956	1957	1958Cents Per	Cents Per	Cents PerAmount Ton Mile	Amount Ton Mile	Amount Ton MileA-Freight Earnings	3,817,486	5.5798B-Miscellaneous earnings (other than freight	revenue)	60,318	0.0808C-Operating expenses....	2,016,217	2.9470D-Administrative	expenses	166,162	0.2429E-Depreciation	1,052,857	1.5389F-Operating profit	642,568	0.9318G-Income tax paid	. 262,346	0.3835H-Net profit	380,222 1959	0.54843,929,280	5.2344	4,147,562	5.183124,997	0.0333	118,156	0.14772,142,874	2.8547	2,227,910	2.7842191,513	0.2551	243,932	0.30481,004,346	1.3379	1,072,138	1.3398615,544	0.8200	721,738	0.9019214,238	0.2854	474,008	0.5924401,306	0.5346	247,730	0.30961960	1961A-Freight earnings	
B-Miscellaneous earnings (other than freight
revenue)	
C-Operating expenses.... D-Administrative
Expenses	
Pension fund	
E-Depreciation	
F-Operating profit	
G-Income tax paid	
H-Net profit	
3,736,879	5.0358	2,728,104110,410	0.1488	151,2532,258,546	3.0436	1,816,994259,773	0.3501	303,812400,000	0.5390	768,310	1.0354	693,777160,660	0.2165	64,77476,165	0.1026	4,61184,495	0.1139	60,1634.4965	2,458,157	4.50900.2493	204,546	0.37522.9948	1,347,840	2.47240.5008	231,799	0.42521.1435	517,201	0.94870.1068	565,863	1.03800.0076	312,411	0.57310.0992	253,452	0.4649
N B. Commencing in 1960, the Auditor General's statement included depreciation on office building, and furni-' ture and fixtures as administrative expense rather than as operating expense, as previously shown.


BEATJHARNOIS CANAL LOCKS-DRAFT OF SHIPS
Mr. Lamoureux: Of the ships that went through the Beauharnois locks from the opening of the 1961-62 navigation season to October 1, 1962, how many drew more than 20 feet of water?
Answer by: Mr. McBain:
The St. Lawrence seaway authority advises as follows: 2,756.


ROADS TO RESOURCES, N.B.-FEDERAL EXPENDITURES
Mr. Fairweaiher: 1.	How much was Canada's share of expenditures on roads to resources in New Brunswick in the calendar years 1961 and 1962?
2.	What were the locations of the projects where the money was spent?
3.	How many miles of road were involved in each project?
Answer by: Mr. Dinsdale:
1.	1961	-	$1,492,202.43
(to Oct. 15)	389,181.63

2 and 3. (a) The Plaster Rock-Renous road. The improvement of approximately 45 miles of the existing road and the construction of approximately 15 miles of new road between the communities of Plaster Rock and Renous.

(b)	Doaktown-Chipman road. Construction of 25 miles of road commencing at the community of Doaktown and running in a southerly direction to the community of Chipman.
(c)	Kingston peninsula loop. Improvement of a 40 mile circuit of the Kingston area, commencing and terminating at the community of Kingston and parallelling the waters of Long Reach on the northwest and Kenne-becasis bay on the southeast by way of Harding Point, Moss Glen and Clifton.
(d)	Westmorland shore road. The improvement of 18.1 miles of existing road between the village of Bayfield and Mates Corner at the junction of highway No. 15.
(e)	Grand lake road. The improvement of approximately 25 miles of the Lakeville comer road near Sheffield, along the west shore of Grand lake to Minto on highway No. 10.
(f)	Cape Bald loop. The improvement of
8.1	miles of existing road from Shemogue to Cape Bald.
(g)	Buctouche Bay loop. The improvement of 11.5 miles of existing road from Cocagne through Cormierville to highway No. 11 at Buctouche Bay.
(h)	Richibucto loop. The improvement of approximately 20 miles of existing road from Buctouche Bay to Richibucto village (or Ste Anne, if the latter is a more suitable terminus).

(i)	Heath Steele road. Construction of a new road northerly across the Nepisiguit river- a distance of approximately 26 miles, to join with the Bathurst-westerly road.
(j)	Miscou island-Shippegan island road. Construction of a causeway bridge and road between Miscou island and Shippegan island -approximately 20 miles.
(k)	Lower Escuminac-Kouchibouguac road. Improvement to roads connecting Lower Es-cuminac, Baie du Vin, Bransfield, Point Sapin and Kouchibouguac-approximately 30 miles.


* SARNIA INDIAN BAND
Mr. Foy: 1.	Has the Sarnia Indian band requested a distribution of the band's $600,000 arising from the sale of their lands to Dimensional Investments Limited?
2.	If so, has any decision been made in this regard, and what is the decision?
3.	If no decision has been reached to date, will the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration give immediate consideration to the desirability of making such a distribution in order to alleviate the economic plight of this band?


Mr. McGee:: 1.	Yes.
2.	The terms of the surrender authorizing sale of the land did not permit a favourable decision. The surrender prescribes that $500,000 be placed in a band trust account for the development of an Indian village and $100,000 for the acquisition of land on the reserve for members who have no land.
3.	A petition of right has since been filed in the Exchequer Court of Canada for the recovery of $2,500,000, and further consideration of such a distribution must of necessity await the conclusion of these proceedings.


HOSPITAL CONSTRUCTION GRANTS, ONTARIO
Mr. McNulty: In respect of federal grants toward hospital construction in Ontario:
(l)	What is the total value of construction approved under the program?
(2)	What is the total of payments made by the federal government in each year from 1957?
(3)	Why are federal payments now lagging behind, on average, over five months?
(4)	Is there any commitment to reimburse the hospitals for interest incurred by hospitals as a result of the federal delay?
(5)	What sum of money is now approved but unpaid?
(6)	Has any instruction or advice been given any hospitals that the federal grants are suspended pending the conclusion of the current fiscal year?
Answer by: Mrs. Casselman:
1.	As approved federal assistance to the provinces on behalf of projects forwarded under the hospital construction grant by a province represents only a portion of the total
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value of the hospital construction under way in a province, this information should be sought directly from the province.
From 1948 to September 30, 1962, approvals of federal assistance on behalf of hospital construction projects submitted by the province of Ontario under the hospital construction grant were over $75,000,000.
2.	The total of payments made to the province of Ontario under the hospital construction grant was-
In	1958-59	$4,245,447In	1959-60	
6,613,966In	1960-61	
6,998,643In	1961-62	
7,620,3953.	Federal payments to a province under the hospital construction grant are made in response to provincial submissions of claims and the completion of a final audit of appropriate costs. Reimbursements to the province have been made within a few days after the receipt of this information.4.	See answer 3 above. There is no commitment to reimburse a province for any interest charges incurred by a hospital.5.	At the end of September, projects submitted by the province of Ontario requesting future payments under the hospital construction grant, to take place over the next few fiscal years as the construction of individual hospitals is undertaken, involved over $17,000,000 in federal assistance.6.	As the province of Ontario has already requested and received approval for over $7,000,000, which represents its share of the total annual allocation of the hospital construction grant, it is now necessary, in approving additional projects for construction, to advise the province that unless reductions can be submitted in other projects it will not be possible to claim on the newest projects until the next fiscal year.


POLIOMYELITIS VACCINES
Mr. Harley: 1.	Up to date in 1962, how many cases of poliomyelitis were reported in Canada?
2.	In these cases, how many (a) had received no prophylactic measures (b) had received Salk vaccine (c) had received Sabin vaccine?
3.	In those cases of poliomyelitis reported after receiving Sabin vaccine (a) what was the time interval between immunization and the onset of symptoms of the disease (b) were these cases considered severe, with paralysis, either temporary or permanent?
Answer by: Mrs. Casselman:
1.	In 1962 to October 6, 65 cases of paralytic poliomyelitis have been reported in Canada. This compares to 158 cases and 807 cases for the same period in the years 1961 and 1960 respectively.

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2.	At the present time, the immunization status is known for only 45 cases. Thirty one had received no Salk vaccine and of these 3 had received Sabin vaccine. Six had received one or two doses of Salk vaccine and of these one had received Sabin vaccine. Eight had received three or more doses of Salk vaccine and of these none had received Sabin vaccine.
3.	(a) The time interval between feeding Sabin vaccine and occurrence of symptoms varied from 17 to 48 days, (b) Two cases had severe permanent paralysis and 2 cases had moderate paralysis which, at last examination, were showing much improvement.


* VOCATIONAL TRAINING, TORONTO
Mr. Lewis: 1.	What assistance under the Technical and Vocational Training Assistance Act has the government provided and undertaken to provide in the province of Ontario, and what part of it, if any, was or is designated for the municipality of Metropolitan Toronto?
2.	How much of any such assistance was in respect of the capital expenditure incurred by the province of Ontario on training facilities, and what part of such assistance related or relates to such capital expenditure in the municipality of Metropolitan Toronto?
3.	What representations, if any, have been made to the Minister of Labour or any departments or agencies of the government with respect to the inadequacy of present training premises and facilities in the municipality of Metropolitan Toronto, and what steps is the government considering in order to provide assistance in respect of capital expenditure for the building of additional facilities there?


Mr. Hales:: 1.	From April 1, 1961 to September 30, 1962, the total federal government contribution to all types of programs coming under the Technical and Vocational Training Assistance Act in the province of Ontario is $51,300,000. The amount of this total contribution relating to the municipality of metropolitan Toronto is not immediately available.
2.	The estimated federal share of all training facilities that have been built or purchased since April 1, 1961 or approved up to October 15, 1962 in the province of Ontario is $187,000,000. Of this total, $37,500,000 relates to the municipality of metropolitan Toronto.
3.	As of October 15, 41 projects have been recommended by the province and approved by the federal government for new schools, additions and improvements to existing training facilities for the municipality of metropolitan Toronto. The federal government will consider further applications as they are received from the province in accordance with terms of the agreements.


VOCATIONAL TRAINING FOR UNEMPLOYED
Mr. Berger: 1.	How many of the unemployed persons enrolled full-time in occupational training courses between April 1, 1960, and March 31, 1961, pursuant to the special vocational projects agreement, completed said courses, and, of those who completed the courses, how many obtained jobs within three months following completion of their courses.
2.	Was the new technical and vocational training agreement, referred to in the annual report of the Department of Labour for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1961, at page 78 thereof, completed with the provinces and, if so, what was the date of completion, and is the province of Quebec a party to the said agreement?
3.	How many unemployed persons were enrolled in occupational training courses, pursuant to the special vocational projects agreement or the technical and vocational training agreement, between April 1, 1961, and March 31, 1962?
4.	Did the federal government share in the cost of any other vocational training courses for unemployed persons during the period between April 1, 1961, and March 31, 1962?
5.	Of those unemployed persons enrolled in the courses mentioned in parts 3 and 4, (a) how many completed said courses (b) how many failed to pass said courses (c) how many obtained employment within three months of completing their courses (d) how many were men (e) how many were women (f) how many were enrolled in the province of Quebec?
Answer by: Mr. Hales:
1.	(a) Between April 1, 1960 and March 31, 1961, 2,848 unemployed persons completed courses.
(b)	Number obtaining jobs within three months following completion, not available.
2.	Yes, with all provinces including Quebec, effective April 1, 1961.
3.	26,887.
4.	No.
5.	(a) 9,646, (b) 6,569-(10,672 still under training, April 1, 1962), (c) Unavailable, (d) 20,306, (e) 6,581, (f) 8,308.


* IMPORT OF CEMENT CARGO, MONTREAL
Mr. Robichaud: Was a cargo of cement imported from a foreign country unloaded in the port of Montreal since October 1, 1962, and, if so (a) what was the quantity of cement involved (b) what was the country of origin (c) what is the name of the broker responsible for this transaction (d) what was the name of the Canadian firm taking delivery of this cargo?


Mr. Flemming (Vicloria-Carlelon):: The answer to the first part of the question is yes.
Part (a)-1050 metric tons.
Part (b)-The shipment arrived from Cuba but there is reason to believe that the cement originated wholly or in part in the U.S.S.R.
Parts (c) and (d). It is not the government's practice to disclose information concerning the business of individual importers or their agents.


LOCATION OF CORRECTIONAL INSTITUTIONS
Mr. Malheson: Have principles been established and, if so, what, with respect to the locating of varying types of correctional institutions, and particularly (a) reception areas (b) young offenders' units
(c)	medical treatment units (d) general institutions?
Answer by: Mr. Bell (Saint John-Albert):
Yes.
(a)	part of maximum security installation; if possible central to major sentencing courts;
(b)	(i) rural setting but reasonably close to a large centre of population.
(ii) as central as possible to the area to be served.
(c)	central to correctional institutions to be served; availability of specialists staff;
(d)	community acceptance; good communications; community amenities for staff; reasonable proximity to large centres of population; availability of services.


INJURIES TO PENITENTIARY GUARDS
Mr. Malheson: 1.	What progress has been made to ascertain the person or persons responsible for the killing of a guard at Kingston penitentiary in 1961?
2.	How many inmates and how many guards were injured by acts of violence in Kingston penitentiary each month since December 31, 1960?
3.	Were inmates seriously injured by acts of violence in the months of September and October 1962, and, if so, what are the facts in each case, who was responsible, and what steps have been taken to prevent future recurrences?
Answer by: Mr. Bell (Saint John-Alberl):
1.	All evidence is in the hands of the police who are continuing their investigations. So far, apparently, the evidence is insufficient to lay charges against anyone.
2.
January 1961: 		Inmates	Guards nil
February 1961: 			nil
March 1961: 			nil
April 1961: 			nil	nil
May 1961: 			i
June 1961: 			nil
July 1961: 			i
August 1961: 			nil
September 1961: ...	1	nilOctober 1961: ....	2	2November 1961: ...	2	nilDecember 1961: ...	iJanuary 1962: ....	1	2February 1962: ...	nilMarch 1962:	1April 1962: 	nilMay 1962: 	nilJune 1962: 	nilJuly 1962: 	nilAugust 1962: 	nilSeptember 1962: ...	2	iOctober 1962: 	i
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Six of the above attacks on officers were made by psychiatric patients.
3.	Of the four inmates injured during September and October 1962, one received lacerations to the face during a fight in the carpenter shop, with no serious injury and the case was routinely dealt with at the warden's court; one received a fractured skull while employed in the kitchen and the attacker has not been determined; one received a stab wound in the abdomen from a yet undetermined patient in the psychiatric unit and the injured inmate in this case has since been committed to a mental hospital; the fourth inmate received facial contusions, which, he claims, occurred through a fall. Inmates will not reveal the identities of their attackers and will rarely co-operate in laying charges. Unless attacks are actually witnessed by the staff, convictions are almost impossible. The staff of Kingston penitentiary is ever vigilant in its attempts to keep outbreaks of violence to a minimum.


* CHAMBLY-ROUVILLE, QUE., APPLE GROWERS
Mr. Pilon: 1.	Is the Minister of Agriculture acquainted with the situation facing the apple growers of the county of Chambly-Rouville which was set forth in the memorandum prepared by the apple growers association of Rougemont?
2.	What steps are contemplated by his department to improve the present conditions with respect to imports and exports, including classification and packing, of fruits and by-products thereof? (Translation):


Mr. Pigeon:: Mr. Speaker, no brief on this matter has been received by the Minister of Agriculture.
(Text):


RESTIGOUCHE COUNTY, N.B., NATIONAL PARK
Mr. Dube: What arrangements has the government made concerning the requests made by the chambers of commerce and other public bodies in connection with the establishment of a federal recreational park in the county of Restigouche?
Answer by: Mr. Dinsdale:
So far as I have been able to determine no requests have been received by me or my department from chambers of commerce or other public bodies in connection with the establishment of a federal recreational park in the county of Restigouche. If the hon. member has knowledge of any such representations and could provide me with more specific information, I would be most happy to have the matter looked into.


RESTIGOUCHE COUNTY, N.B.  HARBOUR WORKS
Mr. Dube: 1.	Does the Department of Public Works intend to carry out any improvements to the harbour works in the county of Restigouche during 1962?
2.	If so, (a) is it the intention to do any filling

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work and to build a warehouse adjoining the Dalhousie wharf (b) are dredging operations east of the Campbellton wharf contemplated?
Answer by: Mr. McCleave:
1.	No. Harbour improvement works, consisting of the construction of fill-retaining embankments, have already been carried out at Dalhousie, N.B. during 1962 at a cost of $15,385.
2.	Further work will depend on the provision of funds in the estimates of 1963-64.


* CUSTOMS TARIFF SURCHARGES-LEGAL OPINION
Mr. Pickersgill: X. Was any work done by officials before June 18, 1962, to prepare data on which the customs tariff surcharges announced on June 24 might be based and, if so, on what date was the work begun, and who authorized it?
2.	On what date was the government advised that the said tariff surcharges could be based legally on the Customs Tariff Act and the Financial Administration Act?
3.	On what date did the government request this legal opinion?


Mr. Graffley:: 1.	Civil servants have, properly, for a number of years, given consideration to such programs.
2.	It was on June 20 that Mr. Driedger advised Mr. Fleming that the tariff surcharges could be based on the two acts cited.
3.	It was on the same date and at the same time that the government requested this particular opinion of Mr. Driedger.


SUBSIDIES TO FARMERS, 1961
Mr. Ouellel: 1.	What has been the total amount of subsidies paid to Canadian farmers in 1961?
2.	What is the amount of subsidies paid to farmers of the province of Quebec in 1961?
Answer by: Mr. Pigeon:
(Translation):
1.	Total for Canada during fiscal year 196162: $144,497,980*.
2.	Total for the province of Quebec during fiscal year 1961-62: $19,285,334.
*Total for Canada. It is impossible to allocate by provinces a certain part of the payments made by the agricultural stabilization board, and therefore the total shown for one province does not take into account the said part of the payments in question.
(Text):


UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE FUND
Mr. Barnett: 1.	What was the balance in the unemployment insurance fund at the end of the fiscal year 1956?
2.	What is the amount of total payments into the fund exclusive of interest from investments between the end of the fiscal year 1956 and the end of the last fiscal year?
3.	What is the total of disbursements from the fund during the same period?
4.	What was the total revenue paid into the fund during each of the years since 1956, subdivided as to the amounts received from employee contributions, employer contributions, government contributions, and income from investments?
5.	What was the total of disbursements from the fund during each of these years?
Answer by: Mr. Graffley:
1.	$854,198,518.59.
2.	$1,815,525,753.00.
3.	$2,694,089,924.00.
Employee Contributions	Employer Contributions	Government Contributions	Income from Investments	Penalties, etc.	Total$	*	$	ss	$	$4. 1955-56....	.. 84,732,276.50	84,732,276.50	33,892,911.00	25,005,133.00	28,920.00	228,391,517.001956-57....	.. 93,409,669.00	93,409,669,00	37,363,868.00	26,039,081.00	45,192.00	250,267,479.001957-58....	.. 94,589,513.50	94,589,513.50	37,835,805.00	23,775,558.00	46,422.00	250,836,812.001958-59....	.. 92,743,521.00	92,743,521.00	37,097,408.00	11,609,925.00	47,736.00	234,242,111.001959-60....	.. 114,307,850.50	114,307,850.50	45,723,140.00	8,441,165.00	51,776.00	282,831,782.001960-61....	.. 137,636,480.50	137,636,480.50	55,054,592.00	2,711,244.00	62,794.00	333,101,591.001961-62... .	.. 138,894,382.00	138,894,382.00	55,557,753.00	6,177,191.00	90,050.00	339,613,758.005. 1955-56....	% 	215,204,892.00	1956-57....	
231,296,570.00	1957-58....	
385,078,154.00	1958-59....	
478,631,078.00	1959-60....	
415,234,067.00	1960-61....	
513,905,724.00	1961-62....	
454,739,439.00


LAKEHEAD TELEVISION SERVICE FOR FOOTBALL GAMES
Mr. Badanai: Has the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation made any arrangements to have the football games televised through CKPR-TV serving the lakehead area?
Answer by: Mr. Halpenny:
I am informed by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation that it does not have telecasting rights for the presentation of Canadian professional football games. However, it is carrying on its television network the N.F.L. games each Sunday afternoon and a series of Canadian intercollegiate games on some Saturday afternoons. There are carried to the lakehead area through CKPR-TV.


LAKEHEAD
Mr. Badanai: Has the government made any new appointments of pilots during the current navigation season for the lakehead area and, if so, who are the successful applicants?
Answer by: Mr. McBain:
Yes, Messrs. T. Hanrahan, C. C. Harrison and C. E. Robinson were appointed as registered pilots on April 25, 1962. Mr. Robinson was replaced by Mr. A. H. Mallette on June 12, 1962.


YEAR ROUND GREAT LAKES NAVIGATION
Mr. Badanai: Has the government given any consideration to a proposal to keep navigation open year round in the great lakes?
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Answer by: Mr. McBain:
In view of the major difficulties caused by the complete freeze-over of most of the major ports within the great lakes area, this project does not appear currently feasible, although every effort is being made to extend the season at each end within the great lakes area itself by increasing use of icebreaker capacity. This statement, of course, applies to the great lakes area and not to the seaway.


REPORTS OF RESTRICTIVE TRADE PRACTICES COMMISSION
Mr. Howard: 1.	Since July 1, 1957, have any reports from the restrictive trade practices commission been received?
2.	If so, and with respect to each such report, what was (a) the nature of its inquiry (b) its date (c) its recommendations (d) the names of the persons or companies to which the recommendations applied (e) the action taken on these recommendations, and the results thereof?
Answer by: Mr. Bell (Saint John-Albert):
1.	Yes.
2.	(a) The answer to this question is contained substantially in the reports of the director of investigation and research, combines investigation act, for the fiscal years ended March 31, 1961 and 1962 already tabled in the House of Commons. The addendum which follows brings the information contained therein up to date.
(b)	Answered by 2(a) and addendum.
(c)	Answered by 2(a) and addendum.
(d)	Answered by 2(a) and addendum.
(e)	Answered by 2(a) and addendum.


ADDENDUM
[Stage Direction]
Names of Persons or Companies to	Action Taken on
			which the	
			Recommendations	Recommendations
Report	Nature of Inquiry Date of Report	Recommendations	Applied*	and Results**
Report concerning the manufac- Alleged combination ture, distribution and sale of and alleged merg-paperboard shipping containers ers and related products
August 2, 1962 (1) "In the case of the arrangements which have led to the establishment of common prices of containerboard and of shipping containers we think that under the Combines Investigation Act an application may be made for a court order which would restrain the participants in such arrangements from continuing or resuming them in the same or a modified form in the future. In view of the persistence with which arrangements to secure the maintenance of common prices have been pursued, in one form or another, over such lengthy periods the commission believes that a restraining order should be sought from the court, under the provisions of the Combines Investigation Act, which would be broad enough to prohibit the participants from using jointly the services of any person or private organization in connection with any matters relating to prices, costs or statistics."
(2) That the most effective way to restore competitive conditions to the board and container levels of the industry from which the public would derive benefit in the form of lower prices would be the removal of customs duties on both board and containers when feasible in the light of the financial situation existing at the time the report was made.
The commission was of the opinion that on the basis of existing jurisprudence, none of the mergers constituted an offence against the Combines Investigation Act. It expressed the hope, however, " that in the near future the questions raised by these decisions will be reviewed by appelate tribunals, more particularly by the Supreme Court of Canada, so that they may be definitely settled."
The matter has been referred to counsel for an opinion as to whether prosecution or other proceedings are warranted.
764	HOUSE OF COMMONS
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Report concerning the acquisition Alleged merger by Bathurst Power & Paper Company Limited of Wilson Boxes, Limited
Report concerning the acquisition Alleged merger of the common shares of Hen-dershot Paper Products Limited by Canadian International Paper Company
August 2, 1962 The commission was of the opinion that on the basis of existing jurisprudence the merger did not constitute an offence against the Combines Investigation Act.
"In the shipping containers report the commission recommended that appropriate tariff changes be made to restore competitive conditions in the supply of containerboard and in the supply of shipping containers. These recommendations would be equally relevant in the present inquiry."
August 2, 1962 The commission was of the opinion that on the basis of existing jurisprudence the merger did not constitute an offence against the Combines Investigation Act.
" [In the shipping containers report] the commission recommended certain tariff changes which it considered would protect the public from unnecessarily high prices of containerboard and shipping containers and which would assist in removing the restrictive effects on the supply of containerboard which are inherent in the situation where a predominant part of the containerboard production in Canada is made by integrated companies and is used in their own converting operations. The commission considers that its recommendations in the inquiry relating to shipping containers are relevant in the present inquiry."

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[Stage Direction]
Report
Names of Persons or Companies to
which the	Action Taken on
Recommendations Recommendations
Nature of Inquiry Date of Report	Recommendations	Applied*	and Results**
Report concerning the manufac- Alleged predatory ture distribution and sale of	pricing
evaporated milk and related products
August 28, 1962 "It is the conclusion of the commission that Carnation, in making the substantial reduction in the price of evaporated whole milk in Alberta, was endeavouring to exercise control over the practices of of Alpha and Pacific in selling their products in Alberta, and that the effect of the action of Carnation was the likelihood that competition in the sale of evaporated whole milk in Alberta would be substantially lessened.
Carnation Com- The matter has been referred pany Limited to counsel for an opinion as to whether prosecution or other proceedings are warranted .
The commission recommends that a court order be sought under the provisions of the Combines Investigation Act to restrain Carnation from engaging in such a policy in the future."
* In many cases the reports do not specifically name persons or companies to which the recommendations apply since such reports, while dealing with the allegations contained in the statement of evidence which names particular persons or companies, ordinarily do not deal with the extent of involvement of each such person or company in the alleged offence. Unless, therefore, the recommendations in the report are stated specifically to apply to named persons or companies, no reply will be shown under this heading.
** While the reports of the restrictive trade practices commission do not contain recommendations in respect of prosecution proceedings, apart from tariff action any action under the Combines Investigation Act arising out of alleged contraventions of the anti-combines legislation can be taken only through the courts. The comment under this heading, therefore, sets out proceedings in the courts where they have been taken or are contemplated, together with the outcome of such proceedmgs where they have been completed.
Note-A report of the restrictive trade practices commission, dated October 4, 1962, has been received and will be made public in accordance with the requirements of section 19(3) of the Combines Investigation Act. Until the report is made public, it is not possible to disclose the information requested.
766	HOUSE OF COMMONS
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Mr. Brown: Has the government any plan for the re-employment of the 250 workers thrown out of employment by the closing of the Canadian Celanese Limited plant at Brantford, Ontario, announced last week?
Answer by: Mr. Hales:
It has been reported that to date 28 employees have been laid off by the Canadian Celanese Ltd., Brantford, and that another 30 to 35 workers may be laid off during the week of October 15. Workers laid off are being registered by the Brantford office of the national employment service, and every effort is being made to re-establish these workers in jobs in Brantford, or in other locations.
I might add that in addition to the efforts of the local national employment office to find other employment for those laid off, five projects under the winter works incentive program have been authorized to date in the Brantford area at a total cost of $140,000. The federal government's share is $33,625. These projects are providing employment for some 43 men for 4,000 man-days. It is expected, of course, that other projects will be started as the program develops.
We are also supporting an active program of training for unemployed in the Brantford area under program 5 of the technical and vocational training agreement. At last report it included courses as follows:
For men: Commercial, commercial art, electronics, machine shop, small engines and welding.
For women: Commercial and commercial art.
Auto mechanics and machine operators have also been trained and the facilities can be expanded in accord with the demand.


ASSISTANCE TO EASTERN CANADA FARMERS
Mr. Caouette: What steps does the government intend to take with respect to eastern Canada farmers (a) when there is a crop failure (b) when they cannot sell their produce (c) when they lose their produce due to lack of storage facilities?
Answer by: Mr. Pigeon:
While new policies with respect to agriculture will be announced at appropriate times certain steps have already been taken and legislation introduced to meet the various situations outlined in the question. Some of these are:
(a) In 1959 the Crop Insurance Act became effective. Under the provisions of this act the responsibility for the institution and administration of insurance schemes to protect
27507-3-49J
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farmers against all types of risks lies with the provinces with the federal government making significant contributions towards the administration and operation of any such programs. These contributions are as follows:
(1)	50 per cent of administrative expenses.
(2)	Up to 20 per cent of the premiums paid.
The federal government enters into agreement to loan to provinces any funds that may be necessary to meet losses over and above a reserve fund, premium receipts, and $200,000.
In addition the federal government has provided financial assistance to provinces on a shared basis to assist them in meeting emergency crop loss situations. An example is the assistance given to farmers suffering losses due to fusarium rot.
(b) The Agricultural Stabilization Act, which was assented to in 1958, is designed to protect farmers against severe drops in the prices of the commodities they sell. Under this act the price of nine mandatory commodities-cattle, hogs, sheep, butter, cheese, eggs, and wheat, oats and barley produced in areas not coming under the Canadian Wheat Board Act-must be supported at not less than 80 per cent of the average price received by producers during the previous ten years. In addition, the act makes provision for the support of any agricultural commodity at any level that may be approved by the governor general in council. During the present year 17 commodities have been or are under support at various levels ranging up to 109 per cent of the base price. These commodities are:
Butter, cheese, eggs, hogs, steers, lambs, wool, honey, milk for manufacturing, soybeans, sunflower seed, sugar beets, turkeys, potatoes. Wheat, oats, barley, produced in those areas not coming under the Canadian Wheat Board Act.
Under the provisions of this act any agricultural products may be purchased, thus providing a market for produce that cannot otherwise be sold at a satisfactory level. The major purchase program in effect at the present time is that associated with dairy products. However, the agricultural stabilization board has from time to time bought large quantities of various commodities depending upon the need for support of this type.
A further form of assistance that may be provided to farmers who are experiencing difficulties in selling their produce is provided by the Co-operative Marketing Act. Under this act an agreement may be entered into with groups of producers under which the government guarantees loans in order to permit the producers to receive an initial payment upon delivery while the produce is being stored or processed, thus enabling a more orderly and effective manner of marketings.

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As an example, lor many years advantage of this act has been taken by forage seed producers to obtain guaranteed bank loans which are used to finance storage and to assist them in obtaining the best possible market and the best possible price.
Another example of where this act has been used to good advantage is that of the apple growers' association of Rougemont which, through this act, have been able to finance the processing of that portion of their annual apple crop which could not be moved to advantage into the fresh market.
Last year the Ontario flue-cured tobacco growers' marketing board obtained assistance under this legislation in order to hold and process for export that portion of their crop that could not be sold through their regular auction procedure.
The department also enters into direct promotion work aimed at assisting the producer in the merchandising of his product. This assistance ranges from the activities of the consumer section of the department to direct financial aid on a shared basis to national organizations for promotional programs. For example, during the current year a direct grant is being provided to the red cherry institute to assist them in market promotion to meet a problem of surplus frozen cherries. Similar grants are or have been made to assist various other segments of the agricultural economy such as poultry, soft fruits, etc.
In the promotion of the sale of agricultural products officials of the departments of agriculture and trade and commerce work closely together in order that all opportunities for sales may be fully considered.
(c)	The department administers various programs designed to permit producers and others to provide themselves with storage facilities adequate for their needs. Under these programs financial assistance has been provided for the construction of cold storage warehouses, potato warehouses, and for cheese curing rooms and cheese factory consolidation.
In the speech from the throne reference was made to the implementing of a program designed to insure the availability of storage facilities and continuity of supplies of feed grain to match the expanding requirements for livestock production, particularly in the areas of British Columbia and eastern Canada where supplies of feed grain are normally deficient. Work in developing this policy is progressing and the complete policy will be announced as soon as is feasible.
Under emergency situations other programs may be and have been implemented such as

the starch diversion program in New Brunswick last year which was necessitated largely by the condition of the crop and lack of adequate on-farm storage facilities. Under this program some 620,000 barrels of potatoes were diverted to starch factories with federal assistance thus relieving a serious storage problem.


ASSISTANCE TO AGRICULTURAL COMMODITIES
Mr, Siewarl: 1.	In respect of what commodities was assistance given between April 1, 1961 and March 31, 1962, under the Agricultural Stabilization Act?
2.	What was the amount of assistance given in the case of each of these commodities?
3.	What was the amount of assistance given to producers in Nova Scotia in the case of each of these commodities?
4.	Can the amounts referred to in part 3 above be broken down by counties and, if so. what is the breakdown?
Answer by: Mr. Jorgenson:
1 and 2. The annual report of the agricultural stabilization board for the fiscal year 1961-62, tabled on September 27, 1962, contains details of assistance given on all commodities under the Agricultural Stabilization Act for the period April 1, 1961 to March 31, 1962.
3.	Detail, by provinces, of the amount of assistance given on each commodity is not available.
4.	No.
extension of fishing limits

Question No. 262-Mi. Tucker:
What steps has the government taken in the year 1962 to protect our fishermen by extending the fishing limits reserved exclusively to Canadian fishermen?


Mr. MacLean (Queens):: Exploratory talks on the subject have been continued with a number of countries, but so far no definite conclusion can be reported.


NORTHUMBERLAND CONSULTANTS LIMITED
Mr. Stewart: 1.	On what date did the Department of Public Works retain each of the three firms of Langevin, Letendre and Monti, Canadian-British engineering consultants, and H. G. Acres and Company Limited, to make engineering studies designed to discover whether or not the construction of a P.E.I.-N.B. causeway is feasible?
2.	On what date were these firms associated as Northumberland Consultants Limited?
3.	On what date does the department expect to establish finally its agreement engaging Northumberland Consultants Limited?
4.	Have these consultants begun their engineering studies at the site and, if so, on what aspects of the project have they been, and are they now at work?
5.	Have the consultants indicated in any way when they expect to conclude their engineering studies?

6.	Were any reports made by any other person (or persons) studied by the department prior to the retention of Northumberland Consultants Limited?


Mr. McCleave:: 1.	The feasibility of constructing a Prince Edward Island-New Brunswick causeway had been established before the consultants were retained. This was announced by the Prime Minister in the House of Commons on April 17, 1962. On June 6, 1962, the Hon. J. Angus MacLean and the Hon. David J. Walker announced jointly that the firms of Langevin, Letendre and Monti, Canadian-British engineering consultants, and H. G. Acres and Company Limited had been named to assist the Department of Public Works in the planning and construction of the most economical type of crossing.
2.	The three firms have formed their affiliate group informally and are seeking a charter so that they can operate as Northumberland Consultants Limited.
3.	Approximately November 15, 1962.
4.	No.
5.	No. Scheduling of the studies will be established by the Department of Public Works.
6.	Yes. Reports made by the following were studied by the Department of Public Works.
(a)	C-B joint venture.
(b)	Department of Mines and Technical Surveys.
(c)	National research council.
automobile automatic transmissions


Mr. Marlin (Essex East): 1.	In view of the reply given on October 15 by the Minister of Finance regarding the manufacture of automatic transmissions, will the Minister of Finance indicate what policies the government is prepared to embark on so as to establish Canadian manufacture of automatic transmissions before the expiry date of October 31 for the free entry into Canada of American manufactured automatic transmissions?
2.	If the government is not considering the manufacturing of automatic transmissions in Canada by way of a crown corporation, will the government take steps to bring this about, or is it definite government policy to leave such an operation to other auspices for manufacturing?


William Heward Grafftey: I ask that this question stand pending a future announcement of government policy.


Mr. Speaker:: Answered.


WATER LEVEL CONTROL, LAKE TIBLEMONT, QUE.
Mr. Laprise: Have plans been made to control the water level of lake Tiblemont so as to assist navigation on the said lake, and on the Bell river and, if so, will such works be undertaken in the near future?
Questions Answer by: Mr. McCleave:
The department has drawn up no plans for the regulation of water levels along the Bell river system, including lake Tiblemont.


SENNETERRE, QUE.-LAUNCHING RAMP AND WHARVES
Mr. Laprise: 1.	Has the Department of Public Works been requested to build a launching ramp and wharves at Senneterre and, if so, on what date?
2.	Have such requests been approved?
3.	When are such works to be undertaken?
Answer by: Mr. McCleave:
1.	The construction of a launching ramp and the installation of lights on the Senneterre wharf were requested on July 20, 1961.
2.	Yes.
3.	Lights were installed in 1962 and the construction of the ramp will depend on the provision of funds in the estimates of 1963-64.


PERSONAL SAVINGS
Mr. Bernier: 1.	What is the total amount deposited in the personal savings accounts of the chartered banks?
2.	What is the amount of the Bank of Canada notes, and other notes in circulation?
Answer by: Mr. Graffiey:
(Translation):
1 and 2. This information is available in the Bank of Canada Statistical Summary for August 1962, page 475.
(Text):
notice of senate appointments

Question No. 274-Mr. Pickersgill:
1.	On what date were orders in council approved by His Excellency the Governor General appointing J. Campbell Haig, Q.C., of Winnipeg, and Harry Albert Willis, Q.C., of the county of Peel, to the Senate?
2.	On what date were the said appointments published?
3.	What public interest was served by the delay in the publication of these appointments to the parliament of Canada by the representative of the Queen?


Mr. Diefenbaker:: 1.	June 15, 1962.
2.	In the Canada Gazette, part I, of July 14, 1962.
3.	The appointment of Senator Haig was confirmed on June 26, 1962 and announcement of the appointment of Senator Willis was made on June 28. Formal publication in the Gazette is merely legal confirmation.
admiral's beach, nfld., breakwater


Mr. Cashin: Has any action been taken by the Department of Public Works to establish a breakwater at Admiral's Beach, St. Marys bay, and, if so, what are the details in respect of such action?

Questions Answer by: Mr. McCleave:
No. However, the department plans to investigate the possibility of constructing an addition to the existing wharf at Admiral's Beach.


CASTLE HILL, NFLD.  RECOGNITION AS HISTORIC SITE
Mr. Cashin: What representation, if any, has the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources received relative to the recognition of Castle Hill, Placentia bay, as a national historic site?
Answer by: Mr. Dinsdale:
Representations in regard to the commemoration of Castle Hill at Placentia has been received from such organizations as the Newfoundland historical society and the star of the sea association of Placentia, warmly supported, I might say, by the hon. member for St. John's East. This was also a matter of great personal interest to the former member for St. John's West who discussed it with me on several occasions. The proposal was put forward originally by the Newfoundland government and considered by the historic sites and monuments board of Canada at its meeting last May. The board instructed its secretary to make an on the spot survey of the site. This has been done and a report has been prepared which will be studied at the next meeting of the board.
ST. bride's, NFLD.-BREAKWATER

Question No. 279-Mr. Cashin:
1.	Who was awarded the contract by the Department of Public Works to effect repairs to the breakwater at St. Bride's, Placentia bay?
2.	Why was work stopped?
3.	What portion of the contract was fulfilled?
4.	What steps are now being taken to complete the job?
Answer by: Mr. McCleave:
1.	The Springdale Construction Company Limited, Springdale, Nfld.
2.	The contractor stopped work on this project claiming that all possible sources of rock, which was required for the works, had been exhausted.
3.	The crib work repair portion of the project was completed but only about 4,650 tons of the specified quantity of 35,000 tons of rock required has been placed on the seaward faces of both breakwaters.
4.	The contractor and the bonding company have been notified that work on this contract must be recommenced at once.


INCORPORATION OF CO-OPERATIVES
Mr. Maclnnis: Is it the intention of the government to introduce legislation dealing with incorporation of co-operatives during this session and, if so, is the said legislation in the nature of a separate co-operatives act or a separate part of the Dominion Companies Act?
Answer by: Mr. Halpenny:
This is a matter of government policy about which any announcement that is to be made will be made in the proper course.


INSURANCE FOR DOMESTIC CONSUMPTION
Mr. Marcoux: Has the government given consideration to the possibility of establishing an insurance scheme for credits applicable to the domestic consumption of Canadian products?
Answer by: Mr. Grafftey:
No.


BATHURST, N.B., HARBOUR DREDGING
Mr. Robichaud: Has a recent survey been made of the entrance and of the main channel leading to Bathurst harbour, Gloucester county, N.B., and, if so (a) on what date was such a survey completed (b) has any decision been reached to proceed with further dredging of the channel in order to facilitate the entrance of larger ocean going vessels (c) when is such dredging expected to be proceeded with?
Answer by: Mr. McCleave:
(a)	May 25, 1962.
(b)	No.
(c)	Answered by (b).


OYSTER TRANSPLANTING, NEW BRUNSWICK AND NOVA SCOTIA
Mr. Robichaud: 1.	From 1957 to date, what was the total quantity of resistant breeding stock oysters transplanted to each of the disease-devastated areas of New Brunswick and Nova Scotia?
2.	Was any distribution of transplanted oysters made after May 20, 1962, and if so, what quantity was transplanted to each of the diseased areas in N.B. and N.S.?
3.	Is it the intention of the Department of Fisheries to carry on with this transplantation program during 1963?
4.	What was the yearly landed and marketed value of oysters for each of the maritime provinces for the years 1946 to 1961 inclusive.

Questions
Answer by: Mr. MacLean (Queens):
1 to 4.
TRANSPLANTS OF RESISTANT OYSTERS MADE TO DISEASE-DEVASTATED AREAS IN NEW BRUNSWICK AND NOVA SCOTIA in barrels
Area planted	1957	1958	1959	1960	1962 Total
New Brunswick
Shippegan area	
1,000	100	-	-	-	1,100Caraquet bay	
-	-	1,075	525	-	1,600Lameque bay	
-	-	300	-	-	300Miramichi bay	
-	2,800	200	-	-	3,000Miscou harbour	
-	-	-	-	700	700Kent County areas	
-	1,500	300	-	-	1,800Shediac bay	
-	-	-	9	300	309Traeadie bay	
-	-	-	200	-	2001,000	4,400	1,875	734	1,000	9,009
Nova Seotia
Wallace-Malagash	
500	-	-	-	-	500Caribou harbour	
-	55	380	-	-	435Pictou harbour	
-	45	-	-	-	45Amet sound	
-	-	1,000	-	-	1,000Merigomish harbour	
-	-	-	140	-	140500	100	1,380	140	-	2,120Total	
1,500	4,500	3,255	874	1,000	11,129
The following transplants were made after May 20, 1962,-
May 21 to Miseou	harbour	
190	barrelsMay 25 to Miscou	harbour	
163	"May 31 to Miscou	harbour	
191	"June 5 to Shediac	bay	
131	"June 13 to Shediac	bay	
177	"
There were no transplants during 1961.
The department does not intend to make any further transplants of disease-resistant oysters during 1963.


LANDED VALUE AND MARKETED VALUE OF OYSTERS, BY PROVINCES, 1946-1961
[Stage Direction]
Year	Prince Edward Island	Nova Scotia	New Brunswick	Total Mari times	Landed Value	Marketed Value	Landed Value	Marketed Value	Landed Value	Marketed Value	Landed Value	Marketed Values	$	$	s	5	$	s	$1946	
99,212	120,550	34,602	46,468	183,398	218,667	317,212	448,6851947	
105,500	139,400	27,500	40,000	193,400	296,800	326,400	476,2001948	
122,500	174,700	33,700	46,400	261,200	423,200	417,400	644,3001949	
100,300	115,100	34,300	50,400	282,600	427,500	417,200	593,0001950	
106,700	167,400	33,400	47,500	207,800	261,800	347,900	476,7001951	
71,200	96,900	38,600	44,800	268,300	372,800	378,100	514,5001952	
87,300	157,300	48,300	48,300	275,000	375,600	410,600	581,2001953	
137,100	185,000	46,400	46,400	280,600	398,700	464,100	630,1001954	
128,300	200,100	32,700	32,700	137,000	216,300	298,000	449,1001955	
139,200	204,600	31,300	43,400	160,200	297,200	330,700	545,2001956	
203,500	275,300	20,700	26,400	125,800	149,800	350,000	451,5001957	
155,400	304,100	37,500	40,700	115,100	86,200	308,000	431,0001958	
263,000	308,100	19,600	28,400	19,700	27,300	302,300	363,8001959	
399,000	427,100	64,200	64,100	9,600	11,000	472,800	502,2001960	
360,700	374,400	41,700	37,300	500	9,400	402,900	421,1001961	
405,100	393,700	44,100	25,800	6,200	10,100	455,400	429,600
Questions

Mr. Maiheson: Does the government operate a germ warfare experimental station or stations and, if so, where, why, and what is the total cost of these operations during the last three years?
Answer by: Mr. Harkness:
The defence research board of the Department of National Defence has a program of research to evaluate the hazard to service personnel and to civilians from attack by biological agents, and to develop means of detection and prophylaxis and therapy against such agents. This program is carried out at Suffield experimental station in Alberta, and at defence research chemical laboratories in Ottawa and defence research Kingston laboratories.
For security reasons the information regarding the cost of these operations cannot be divulged in greater detail than in the estimates.
investigations of foreign fishing boats

Question No. 300-Mr. Robichaud:
Were any searches or investigations made by fisheries officers on foreign registered trawlers or seiners operating in the gulf of St. Lawrence or bay of Chaleur area from April 1, 1962, to date and, if so (a) on what dates were such patrols or searches carried on (b) have any violations been reported and, if so, what was the nature of such violations (c) what action has been taken by the fisheries department to protect Canadian fishermen against such operations?


John Angus MacLean: Mr. Speaker,
assuming the second last word in the first line to be "for" instead of "on", the answer is yes. No investigations or searches were made in the gulf of St. Lawrence or bay of Chaleur areas actually on board any foreign registered trawlers. The answer to part (a) is July 18, 19, 20, 23, 24, 25, August 28 and September 5, 6 and 15. The answer to part (b) is no. The answer to part (c) is: A fleet of patrol vessels is operated on the Atlantic seaboard, part of the duties of which is enforcement of the provisions of the Coastal Fisheries Protection Act. Reports of contraventions of the act are promptly investigated. Air patrol is used, where necessary, to supplement the work of the water patrol.
[DOT]winter works program, maritime provinces


Mr. Rideout: Will the government consider Including hospital and school construction in the winter works program to help relieve unemployment in the maritime provinces?


Alfred Dryden Hales: The scope of the municipal winter works incentive program has been broadened from time to time so that it now includes any capital undertaking of a municipality

except work on schools and school grounds, hospitals and hospital grounds, subway transportation systems and municipally owned buildings used for industrial or business purposes under private auspices.
The federal government is making substantial contributions to the provinces in respect of certain phases of education as well as towards hospital construction and it is not intended at this time to further broaden the scope of the municipal winter works incentive program.
world health organization


Mr. Marcoux: 1.	Is Canada contributing financially to the world health organization?
2.	Has Canada authorized the world health organization to promote water fluoridation In the city of Ottawa?
Answer by: Mrs. Casselman:
1.	Canada, as a member of the world health organization, contributes annually toward the budget of that organization. The budget is determined in accordance with the provisions of the world health organization's financial regulations (article 5.3), and member nations are assessed accordingly.
2.	No.


JACQUES CARTIER-LASALLE COUNTY, QUE.  SMALL BUSINESSES LOANS
Mr. Rock: 1.	What is the number of loans made In 1960-61 under the Small Businesses Loans Act In the county of Jacques Cartier-Lasalle?
2.	What was the amount of each loan?
3.	How many requests for loans were rejected?
4.	What were the reasons for rejection?
Answer by: Mr. Grafftey:
1.	Information on loans is not assembled to provide a detailed breakdown by local areas.
2.	Answered by 1.
3.	Not known.
4.	Not known.


WORLD'S FAIR SITE
Mr. Rock: Will the government give consideration to using vacant land in the county of Jacques-Cartier-Lasalle, on the western side of the island of Montreal, as the site for the 1967 world's fair?
Answer by: Mr. Sevigny:
Since no decision has been made regarding the location of the proposed world's fair in 1967, any consideration of the site would be premature at this time.


BAIT DEPOTS, NEWFOUNDLAND
Mr. Cashin: Does the government have any plan to increase the number of bait depots now in operation in the province of Newfoundland?

Answer by: Mr. MacLean (Queens):
The government's progress of extension of bait distribution services in Newfoundland has been through the establishment of bait holding units or walk-in freezers rather than bait depots. Over the past four years the service has been doubled from 20 to 40 distribution points. These facilities will be extended as required but at the same time transport facilities by boat and truck must be expanded. Currently tenders are being called for a large refrigerated vessel to replace the 40-year old Arctica.
STATION "d", TORONTO

Question No. 314-Mr. Cameron (High Park):
1.	For what purpose is the old station "D" (High Park riding, Toronto), situated at the corner of Dundas and Keele streets, being used at the present time?
2.	Can accommodation be found in other government buildings located in the area to enable the building to be declared surplus?
Answer by: Mr. McCleave:
1.	The building presently accommodates a unit of the Department of Agriculture, health of animals branch and living quarters for a caretaker.
2.	No. However, a general survey of accommodation in Toronto has been initiated with the objective of relocating the Department of Agriculture as soon as possible.
cf-105 characteristics

Question No. 319-Mr. Herridge:
What were the capabilities of the late CF-105 "Arrow" with regard to (a) range (b) altitude (c) speed (d) high and low altitude performance (e) search radar (f) armament?
Answer by: Mr. Harkness:
Questions
(a)	-(i) Subsonic combat radius, 506 nautical miles; (ii) Supersonic combat radius, 354 nautical miles.
(b)	-Combat ceiling, 61,400 feet.
(c)	-(i) Subsonic cruise, mach, 0.92; (ii) Supersonic cruise, mach, 1.5.
(d)	-The Arrow was designed as a high altitude interceptor, and, as is the case, with all modern jet interceptors, its performance at various altitudes was dependent upon the mission being flown. See para (a) and (c).
(e)	-The maximum detection range of the search radar on an appropriate target was 34 nautical miles.
(f)	-The armament proposed for use on the Arrow was 8 Falcon missiles or 4 Sparrow missiles.


* CIVIL DEFENCE WARNING SIRENS
Mr. Hellyer: How many civil defence warning sirens are now operational in Canada?


Mr. Harkness:: Since the program for installation of warning sirens is still in progress, the exact number operational at a given date is not available at headquarters. One thousand three hundred and twenty eight sirens have been or are in the process of being installed.


CRIMINAL CODE PROSECUTIONS
Mr. Berger: 1.	How many prosecutions have been brought, and how many convictions were made, in each of the years 1956 to 1961 inclusive, upon charges laid under the following sections of the criminal code of Canada: (a) 204 (b) 208 (c) 209 (d) 214 (e) 237, subsection (1) (f) 237, subsection (2) (g) 238?
2.	In how many cases did prosecutions under section 237, subsection (1), and section 237, subsection (2), arise out of the same incident?
774

Questions
Answer by: Mr. Nesbitt:
1.	Prosecutions not available; charges given instead. Data not available for 1961.
Data for e.c. 214 not available separately (includes 215-concealing dead body)
Data for c.c. 237 not available separately (includes 23S-supplying noxious things)
NUMBER OF CHARGES AND OF CONVICTIONS-1956-1960 (as reported to DBS)
Year	Infanticide C.C. ss. 204-208	Killing unborn child C.C. s. 209	Neglect in childbirth and concealing dead body C.C. ss. 214-215	Abortion and attempt and supplying noxious things C.C. ss. 237-238	Chges.	Conv.	Chges.	Conv.	Chges.	Conv.	Chges.	Conv.1956	.. 1	-	-	-	15	8	28	161957	.. 5	3	16	-	10	9	42	341958	.. 3	2	7	6	9	9	19	121959	.. 1	1	4	2	3	3	37	291960	.. 2	1	-	-	4	4	48	32
2. Not available.


COUNTRIES TO WHICH BALL BEARING EXPORTS PROHIBITED
Mr. Cameron (Nanaimo-: Cowichan-The Islands):
What countries are on the area control list, established under authority of the Export and Import Permits Act, to which the export of ball bearings is prohibited?
Answer by: Mr. Nesbitt:
The following is the list of countries on the area control list:
Albania, Bulgaria, China, including Manchuria but excluding Taiwan (Formosa), Czechoslovakia, Estonia, Germany (Soviet zone only), Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Mongolia, North Korea, North Viet-Nam, Poland, Rumania, Sinkiang, Tibet, Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
The export of ball bearings to area list countries is subject to the issuance of an export permit. It may be presumed that permits will not be granted for exports to area list countries of bearings described in item 6-1 or group 8 part 1 of the export control list.


RESTIGOUCHE-MADAWASKA COUNTY, N.B.  FARM LOAN APPLICATIONS
Mr. Dube: 1.	How many applications for farm loans have been made in the county of Restigouche-Madawaska since June 1957?
2.	How many of said applications have been (a) approved (b) declined?
Answer by: Mr. Jorgenson:
1.	87.
2.	(a) 81.
(b) 4.
Two withdrawn at the request of the applicants.


FRENCH APPLICATION FORMS FOR TRANSPLANT OF FISH
Mr. Dube: Is the Department of Fisheries supplying French application forms for the transplantation of fish in private or public water and (a) if so are such applications made in the French language accepted by the fish culture branch, maritimes area (b) if not, what are the reasons given for such applications not being accepted?
Answer by: Mr. MacLean (Queens):
Yes.
(o) Yes.
(b) Not applicable.

Questions


*ROAD TO RESOURCES, NORTHWESTERN ONTARIO EXPORT CREDITS INSURANCE TO DOMINION STEEL
Mr. Badanai: Has a start been made on the 220 miles road to resources across north-western Ontario which the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources announced last June before the Canadian Institute of Mining and Metallurgy and, if so, how many miles of it have been completed?


Mr. Dinsdale:: Mr. Speaker, work has been carried out through aeromagnetic surveys and geological reconnaissance to determine the mineral potential of the area and to select the most promising and most economical route for this important road. I am advised that the province hopes to complete the first 40 miles north from Pickle Crow during next year's construction season and make a start on the next leg of the road.


*ST. SIMEON, QUE.  WHARF CONSTRUCTION
Mr. Belanger: 1.	Has money been voted for the construction of a new wharf at St. Simeon, county of Charlevoix and, if so, what is the amount?
2.	Is it the intention of the Minister of Public Works to have the construction work started this fall?


Robert Jardine McCleave: No.


SUBSIDY ON CORN TO MARITIME PROVINCES
Mr. Maclnnis: 1.	Has a decision been made regarding the extension of the subsidy on corn moving to the maritime provinces?
2.	Where are supplies of corn available in the maritime provinces?
Answer by: Mr. Jorgenson:
1.	Yes. This corn assistance was instituted for the period April 16 to September 30. Because a large volume of corn moved, and feed grades of wheat were moving forward from the lakehead to eastern Canada, it was decided not to extend the period for assistance.
2.	Retailers acquired corn in September in large volume, probably to the extent of storage. In addition, premium quality corn, which was not intended for feed, is in store at Halifax and which it is understood is available. Wheat of feed grades is available in Halifax and a boat with additional quantities was expected to arrive over the weekend.


NEW WATERFORD, N.S.  PERMANENT FISHING INDUSTRY
Mr. Maclnnnis: Has any representation been received from the New Waterford-Barrachois improvement association asking the government for assistance in developing a permanent commercial fishing industry in this area and, if so, what action does the government plan to take in this regard?
Answer by: Mr. MacLean (Queens):
No.
27507-3-50i


AND COAL
Mr. Maclnnis: 1.	What is the total amount, in Canadian dollars, of credit presently outstanding under the Export Credits Insurance Act as a result of the assistance provided under this act in securing export sales for steel products of the Dominion Steel and Coal Company operations in Sydney, N.S.?
2.	Are any requests for further credit assistance under the terms of this act presently before the government on behalf of the Dominion Steel and Coal Company or any other subsidiary of Hawker Siddeley of Canada Limited and, if so, what is the amount involved?
Answer by: Mr. Nesbitt:
1.	The corporation's total outstanding liabilities and commitments at September 30, 1962 amount to $23.6 million Canadian.
2.	It is not the practice of the corporation to supply information concerning requests for insurance and financing since there is a serious danger of prejudicing the negotiations of the Canadian exporter.


ALL-CANADA INSURANCE CARD
Mr. Maiher: As there is no insurance card for motorists which is recognized across Canada as proof of financial responsibility, will the government give leadership to the end that an all-Canada agreement will be reached at an early date in line with the increasing need for same following the opening for use of the trans-Canada highway?
Answer by: Mr. Grafftey:
Insurance coverage is normally effective without geographical limitations.


* CANADIAN REPRESENTATIVES, RICHELIEU-CHAMPLAIN BOARD
Mr. Cardin: 1.	What are the names of each of the members and their assistants who will represent Canada on the Richelieu-Champlain waterway international board set up by the international joint commission to study the Richelieu canal project?
2.	What is the place of residence of the Canadian representatives on this board?
3.	When and where will this board meet?
4.	What are the precise terms of reference of this board?


Mr. Macquarrie:: On inquiry, I am informed by the chairman of the Canadian section, international joint commission, as follows:
1.	Canada: G. A. Scott, assistant deputy minister, Department of Transport, Ottawa, chairman; G. Millar, chief, harbours and rivers engineering branch, Department of Public Works, Ottawa, member; District engineer, Department of Public Works, Montreal, alternate member; R. H. Clark, chief hydraulic engineer, water resources branch, Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources, Ottawa, member.
2.	As indicated in 1.

Questions
3.	Members of the board will be meeting from time to time as their studies progress and as the situation requires. Meetings of the two chairmen have already taken place and, as is cutomary with the I.J.C. advisory bodies, informal consultations are a continuing process. The board itself will determine its own schedule of meetings in accordance with the requirements.
4.	It has not been customary to make public in advance of preparation of reports the actual directives given by the international joint commission to their subordinate bodies; nor is it regarded as appropriate so to do at the present stage of a reference. However, it can be said, with the consent of the United States section of the commission, that the international Champlain waterway board has been directed by the I.J.C. to carry out the technical investigations necessary and also, in scheduling the various phases of investigation and study, to examine carefully the economic consequences of such an improved waterway and its effects in both countries; also to begin its studies immediately and to keep the commission currently informed of development and progress.


C.N.R. SET-OFF YARD, TORONTO   ALTERNATE SITE
Mr. Sams: In view of the fact that strong representation has heen made by Mr. Kenneth Wharton, president of the Aldershot property owners association, on a petition bearing the signatures of some five thousand residents of the town of Burlington in opposition to a proposed set-off yard of the Canadian National Railways, what action is being taken by the Department of Transport in an effort to find an alternative site, and consequently prevent this proposal from deteriorating the valuable residential property of this area?


Mr. Sams:: I ask permission of the house to withdraw this question.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
Order discharged and question withdrawn.


VIOLATION OF THREE MILE LIMIT BY FOREIGN TRAWLERS
Mr. Cashin: How many reports, if any, of foreign trawlers violating the three mile limit have been received by the government, and what action has the government taken in respect of each report?
Answer by: Mr. MacLean (Queens):
The government receives many reports, most of them oral, of foreign trawlers allegedly violating the three mile limit, particularly in the spring of the year. The Department of Fisheries maintains a fleet of patrol boats which keeps a constant check on foreign trawler operations along the coast. The department also has access to aircraft for use on patrol to check specific reports or for

operation when foreign trawlers are in numbers close to the three mile limit. In addition to general patrol work, specific complaints when received are investigated. In March of this year two Spanish trawlers with fishing gear in operation inside the three mile zone were sighted and identified by personnel on departmental vessels. The master of one of these, the Santa Rita, had to answer to a charge under the Coastal Fisheries Protection Act when he next visited the port of St. John's, Newfoundland. He was fined $200. The magistrate took into consideration radar troubles aboard the trawler and the fact that it was only one half mile inside the three mile zone. Proceedings will be taken against the second vessel if it appears in a Canadian port.


COMMUNITY STAGES, ST. JOHN'S WEST, NFLD.
Mr. Cashin: How many representations, if any, have been received from the district of St. John's West to have community stages constructed in that district, and from whom have they been received?
Answer by: Mr. MacLean (Queens):
Five. All representations received from Hon. W. J. Browne.


*ABITIBI, QUE. SLAUGHTERHOUSE
Mr. Laprise: Has the Department of Agriculture received an application for a grant for the construction of a slaughter house in Abitibi and, if so, who was the applicant, and how was the application disposed of?
(Translation):


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Speaker, the answer is no. (Text):


*C.M.H.C. LOANS, QUEBEC
Mr. Lamy: 1.	How many loans have been granted in the province of Quebec by Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation?
2.	How many loans have been refused by the said corporation, and on what grounds?
3.	How many purchasers have lost their homes because they have failed to meet their payments?
4.	Does the government intend to amend the act so that those earning up to $2,500 per year may benefit from it?


Mr. Fulton:: Mr. Speaker, with respect to net loans approved under the National Housing Act in the period 1954 to September 1962 in the province of Quebec, the answer with respect to part 1 is as follows: Those by approved lenders insured by C.M.H.C., 47,219 loans, for a total of 55,612 units and a total amount of $518,078,000; loans by C.M.H.C., 24,730 for a total of 33,646 units, and a total amount of $330,107,000. The aggregate then, under the National Housing Act is 71,949 loans for 89,258 units in the total aggregate amount of $911,185,000.
The answer to part 2 is that the information is not available. With respect to part 3, the

answer is that out of this great number of loans 223 purchasers have lost their homes because they failed to meet the payments.
The answer to part 4 is that the National Housing Act already contains provision for aid to families of low income.


BONAVENTURE DISTRICT, QUE.-FARM LOAN APPLICATIONS
Mr. Bechard: Since 1958, how many applications for loans has the Farm Credit Corporation received from the district of Bonaventure, and of this number, how many were approved, and what was the amount in each case?
(Translation):


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Speaker, five applications have been received. Three have been rejected and the other two have been approved by the Farm Credit Corporation, one amounting to $5,000 and the other to $3,200.
(Text):



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


COLUMBIA RIVER POWER


Mr. Berger: 1.	Did talks take place this year between officials of Canada, the United States, and British Columbia, or between officials of any of them, regarding the sale to the United States of the downstream benefits which Canada would acquire under the Columbia river treaty and, if so, did these talks cover the question of what price or prices would be paid for said downstream benefits?
2.	Has the government reached agreement with the province of British Columbia as regards the sale, on a long term basis, of downstream benefits under the Columbia river treaty, to the United States?



*C.B.C. OFFICES, MONTREAL

Mr. Rinfrel: 1.	What are the addresses of the various offices of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation in Montreal?
2.	How many of these offices are rented?
3.	What is the total monthly rent paid for the said offices?


Mr. Halpenny:: Return tabled.



SUPPLIES OF COAL, B.C.

Mr. Herridge: 1.	What quantities, by grade, of coal were exported from Canada in 1960, 1961, and to date in 1962?
2.	What quantities, by grade, of coal were available to coal dealers and consumers in British Columbia in 1960, 1961, and to date in 1962?
3.	Have any complaints been received from coal dealers and consumers in B.C. with respect to difficulties in obtaining good furnace coal since January 1, 1960, and, if so, what action has been taken?
Questions



PROGRAMS ON PRIVATE STATIONS AFFILIATED WITH C.B.C.

Mr. Rynard: 1.	When privately owned radio stations are affiliated with a C.B.C. network, can the C.B.C. dictate the C.B.C. programs such stations must carry, and can broadcasting licenses be cancelled for failure to comply with such instructions?
2.	Have any religious programs on local private stations been replaced by sports and other secular programs as a result of such affiliation?
3.	Has any long standing 15 minute devotional program been cut to five minutes as a result of such affiliation?


George Ernest Halpenny: Return tabled.



GRAIN EXPORTS

Mr. Thompson: 1.	What have been the total exports of (a) wheat and wheat flour (b) all grains, from Canada during the periods 1952 to 1956, 1957 to 1961, and since January 1, 1962, in terms of both volume and dollar value?
2.	During each of these periods, what quantity of grains (broken down as above) was exported to countries under communist domination?
3.	What was the value of such exports?
4.	What is (a) the maximum amount of credit that has been advanced to finance such exports to countries under communist domination (b) the present amount of credit outstanding in connection with such exports?



INTERIOR CONTRACTING CO., PENTICTON, B.C.

Mr. Howard: Since January 1, 1957, has Interior Contracting Co. Ltd., of Penticton, B.C., received any money for any work done for the federal government and, if so, how much money by dates of payment and purpose?



WAR CLAIMS FUND

Mr. Pickersgill: 1.	Has a slave labour allowance been paid to the ex-prisoners of war captured at Hong Kong and, if not, is the payment of such an allowance under active consideration?
2.	Has a benevolent fund been set up for exprisoners of war captured at Hong Kong from the war claims fund as recommended by the veterans affairs committee of the House of Commons and, if not, why not?
3.	What amount has been paid from the war claims fund to each approved claimant?
4.	What claims are still outstanding, and what is the amount of each such claim?
5.	What has been the cost to the war claims fund of administration of the fund?
6.	What is the balance in the war claims fund at present?



*ST. JOHN'S WEST, NFLD.-BUILDING PROGRAM

Mr. Cashin: 1.	What changes are contemplated in the building program of the federal government in the district of St. John's West, in consequence of the government reduction in spending?
2.	What part of this program will be carried out in St. John's West?

Questions



RELEASES FROM ARMED SERVICES

Mr. Maclnnis: 1.	How many persons with less than 20 years' regular and wartime service have been released with pension from each of the armed services during each of the years since 1955?
2.	Were any of these persons released because of inefficiency or misconduct and, if so, how many in each year, in each service, and for what reason?
3.	How many persons with over 20 years' regular and wartime service have been honourably released from each of the armed services without entitlement to a pension since 1955?



PULP WOOD PRICES, MARITIME PROVINCES

Mr. Maclnnis: 1.	Would the government indicate if it is their intention to introduce support prices for farm-cut pulp wood?
2.	Has the government studied the question of the prices paid for pulp since the restrictive trade practices commission investigation of a few years ago?
3.	Has the government received any representations on this matter in relation to the price paid for pulpwood in the maritime provinces and, if so, when, from whom, and to what effect?



INDIAN AFFAIRS-REDUCED EXPENDITURES

Mr. MacEachen: Have any cut-backs in current expenditures been authorized in the Indian affairs branch, or any other department of government, connected with Indian affairs as a result of the general policy of the government to reduce outlays?



RAILWAY LEVEL CROSSINGS

Mr. Peters: 1.	How many railway crossings are there in Canada in each of the following categories (a) first class highways (b) second class highways, and (c) secondary roads?
2.	How many in the riding of Timiskaming?
3.	How many of these are protected by (a) light and/or signal (b) underpasses (c) overpasses?
4.	Is it a policy of the Department of Transport to authorize new highway construction without demanding an overpass or underpass?



PORTNEUF COUNTY, QUE.-FEDERAL PROJECTS

Mr. Frenette: 1. What works are being carried out at the present time by the federal government in the county of Portneuf?
2.	What are the names of the contractors carrying out these works?
3.	What sum of money has been granted for each such work?



EMPLOYEES IN X-RAY DEPARTMENTS OF FEDERAL HOSPITALS

Mr. Berger: 1.	Since the civil service regulations under the new Civil Service Act came into effect on April 1, 1962, have any employees working in X-ray departments of federal hospitals been found to be in need of leave because of exposure to radioactivity and, if so, how many?
2.	In each case (a) when was the finding made (b) when did the employees leave begin (c) what was the length of each employees leave?
3.	How often do physical examinations of such employees take place?
[Mr. Cashin.l



CANADIAN ARMED FORCES RETIREMENTS

Mr. Malheson: 1.	What is the average retirement age of regular army personnel, and what is the average length of service?
2.	Are retired army personnel subject to recall?
3.	How many army, navy and air force personnel have been retired from active service since April 1, 1961?
4.	Did the government consult with the NATO command prior to August 24, 1962, when the Minister of National Defence announced cuts in the Canadian armed forces?



PAYMENTS BY C.B.C. TO MRS. JEANNE SATJVE

Mr. Beaule: 1.	What amount of money has Mrs. Jeanne Sauve earned with the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation since she has been employed by the said corporation?
2.	Is Mrs. Jeanne Sauve the wife of the hon. member for Hes-de-la-Madeleine?


George Ernest Halpenny: Return tabled.



CITIZENSHIP CERTIFICATES TO CHINESE-TIME LAPSE

Mr. Howard: With respect to the answer given to question 31 on October 17 and the 573 people of Chinese origin referred to therein who were granted certificates of citizenship between January 1 and June 30, 1962, and to the period of time which elapses between the exam for citizenship before a judge and the issuance of the said certificate, what period of that time lapsed with respect to each of the said people of Chinese origin expressed by groups in units of weeks and/or years, as the case may be?



FEDERAL NICKEL PURCHASES

Mr. Godin: Did the government, directly or indirectly, or any agency or crown corporation, purchase any Canadian nickel in the years 1958, 1959, 1960, 1961, 1962, and, if so, what quantities, and for what amount in each of the said years for (a) defence production (b) research (c) international aid (such as, Colombo plan, etc.) (d) for all other purposes?



POSTAL SERVICE, ST. GEORGES EAST, QUE.

Mr. Perron: 1.	Have the municipal authorities of St. Georges East, county of Beauce, applied to the postmaster general to have door to door delivery and, what are the department's intentions in that regard?
2.	What is the total maintenance cost of the post office of St. Georges West?
3.	What decision has been reached concerning the construction of a post office in Beauceville?
4.	What was the price paid for the land purchased for the said post office?



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Lionel Chevrier (Laurier):: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could direct anew my question to the house leader, and ask him whether

he and the government have given consideration to the proposal made from this side of the house on Friday evening, namely, that standing order 58 be invoked so that the Minister of Finance might make his presentation with the Speaker in the chair.


Hon. Gordon Churchill (Minister of Veterans Affairs):: The part of standing order 58 to which the hon. member refers would be the announcement by the Minister of Finance that he is going to present a budget. We propose invoking standing order 58 to move into committee of ways and means, and my suggestion of Friday morning still stands.


Lionel Chevrier: May I ask this supplementary question. How then, in view of that decision, does the government justify this flagrant disregard of the rights of parliament in denying an opportunity to the opposition to test the financial policies of the government for this fiscal year?


Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Speaker, this is entering into an argument at the wrong time in the proceedings of the house. There is no flagrant disregard of the rights of parliament at all. The last people who should talk about that are the people in the Liberal party.


Lionel Chevrier: May I ask-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I trust that the hon. member will ask a supplementary question and not continue what appears to be the start of a debate at this point. We are on orders of the day.


Lionel Chevrier: It is a supplementary question and it is not argumentative in the slightest degree, although I say to you, with respect, that under the particular circumstances in which we find ourselves now I think perhaps some latitude should be allowed. In any event, I will put my question. Does this mean, then, that we will in effect have a budget debate but without a budget?


Gordon Minto Churchill: I do not see how this is possible. Hon. members may draw their own conclusions, but there has been a budget this year. We moved into ways and means-


Some hon. Members:: But no debate.


Gordon Minto Churchill: It was then debated by the Leader of the Opposition-


Mr. Pearson:: Fifteen minutes.


Gordon Minto Churchill: -and a representative of the C.C.F. party on two days. We will move into ways and means and consider the resolutions.


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker-
Inquiries of the Ministry


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre has been getting the eye of the Chair, and I think perhaps I will come back to the hon. member later.


Mr. Stanley Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):: You are perfectly right, Mr. Speaker. When I was trying to get your eye, it was with a supplementary. We have moved on a bit, however, and I now rise merely to make this suggestion. It seems to me that a point of order is developing, but that this is not the moment for it. I would ask that when the order is called, Your Honour see and hear me, for I shall raise a point of order at the appropriate moment.


Lionel Chevrier: On the point of order, Mr. Speaker, may I say that I think the point is well taken. Will Your Honour then give an opportunity of raising a point of order when the item which will soon be under discussion is called; because if Your Honour rules that out of order then I believe, under the particular circumstances in which we find ourselves, there should be some further interrogation of the government.


Gordon Minto Churchill: I hope Your Honour has understood the question as I have. The point of order would be raised when Mr. Speaker has left the chair and the chairman is in charge, according to the standing order.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I think I am being asked to rule on a hypothetical situation, because I have no knowledge yet of any point of order being actually raised of when the Speaker is to leave the chair because the Speaker, at the moment, does not see that he is going to leave the chair.


Lester Bowles Pearson: May I ask the Prime Minister whether it is the intention of the government to bring down a supplementary budget for the current financial year?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, when we arrive at that point of business the fullest information will be given in this connection, and the hon. gentleman will then be able to make whatever interpretation he chooses on the basis of the stand being taken.


Some hon. Members:: Shame.


EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. R. N. Thompson (Red Deer):: I wish to direct a question to the Prime Minister. In view of the serious military situation created by the invasion of a commonwealth

Inquiries of the Ministry country by communist China and its military forces over the week end, will the government give an assurance that it will refrain from cutting aid to India under the Colombo plan during the coming year and that, during the period of hostilities, it will suspend shipments of Canadian grain to communist China and divert them instead to India?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, we in Canada at all times have been ready and willing to supply wheat to India when we have had a surplus. At no time has India expressed any desire to obtain any more wheat than she has been receiving. Indeed, the information that was given to me when I was in India was that so far as it was possible it was hoped that any assistance provided under the Colombo plan would be by way of those things that would permit of capital projects being proceeded with.
We still have an ample amount of wheat, and any time India requires wheat we will be in a position to supply it. That fact, however, should not induce us to break an existing contract with another country. To date the relationship between communist China and India is that of a continuation of a boundary dispute, and I am sure the hon. gentleman would be the last to ask the Canadian people to break an existing contract.


Robert Norman Thompson: Mr. Speaker-


Mr. Herridge:: Mr. Speaker, may I put an original question supplementary to the last question raised, for clarification purposes?


Mr. Speaker:: Is the question being raised by the hon. member for Red Deer a supplementary question?


Robert Norman Thompson: Yes, Mr. Speaker.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mine is for clarification.


Mr. Speaker:: For clarification purposes, and then I will see the hon. member for Red Deer.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: In
view of Canadian Press reports that an Indian air force mission is on its way to Canada to explore the possibility of acquiring Caribou transport planes, and in view of the grave news of the attacks by China on India, would the Prime Minister inform the house whether any assistance has been requested by India?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I may say there has been no official approach by the Indian government to the Canadian government for the purchase of any aircraft or other military equipment. As hon. members know, Canada has no formal commitments to India in the military field. However that does not


deny us deploring the attacks that are being made against India at this time; and if the Indian government should approach us, in view of its situation and the fact that India is a fellow member of the commonwealth, we would certainly give such a request the fullest consideration.


Robert Norman Thompson: As a supplementary question-


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member for York North.


Mr. John Addison (York North):: I wish to direct a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs. Can the minister inform the house whether Canada will support any move for United Nations action with respect to the fighting now in progress between China and India?


Hon. Howard C. Green (Secretary of Stale for External Affairs):: Mr. Speaker, it would be premature for me to make any statement in reply to that question.


Robert Norman Thompson: Mr. Speaker, I desire to ask my supplementary question.


Mr. Speaker:: I am sorry.


Robert Norman Thompson: May I ask the Prime Minister, in view of the full scale military operations by the military forces of communist China against India, is the government contemplating taking a different stand than it has taken on the sale of wheat to China, taking into account these developments?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I think I made it very clear. I know, on the basis of what I read in the newspapers, that the hon. gentleman has strong feelings regarding the sale of wheat to China. However, there has been nothing in the nature of full scale, all out military operations as yet.
[Later:}


Lester Bowles Pearson: May I ask the Prime Minister whether, on the basis of the information which is available to the government alone, the government considers that an act of aggression has been committed against India.


John George Diefenbaker: Well, Mr. Speaker, naturally the viewpoint expressed by the Indian government is that there has been not only an act of aggression but a series of acts of aggression. Our relations and our experience with India in the past have shown that that country does place the true and appropriate facts before us.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Thomas R. Berger (Vancouver-Burrard):: Mr. Speaker, may I respectfully direct a question to the Prime Minister. Last week the Prime Minister said there were indications that the Soviet union might shortly precipitate a new crisis in Berlin. Can the Prime Minister tell the house at this time what those indications were?



NATIONAL DEFENCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. R. W. Prittie (Burnaby-Richmond):: I wish to direct a question to the Prime Minister and I regret I have not given him notice of it. Has the Prime Minister received a letter from the Canadian campaign for nuclear disarmament over the signature of Hon. J. T. Thorson, requesting that the week of November 5 to November 11 be proclaimed "Peace Week" throughout Canada? If so, has he any statement to make concerning the request at this time?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I did receive a letter, and I informed Judge Thorson that while naturally we were all interested in doing anything that would achieve peace, a course had been followed by successive governments that a request to set aside a day or a week for an avowed purpose was not generally acceptable.



CARRIAGE OF NUCLEAR BOMBS OVER CANADA IN U.S. PLANES

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I wish to direct a question to the Minister of National Defence. I ask this question, Mr. Speaker, because it is of urgent importance to a good many Canadians, and I try to rationalize my desire for information with my respect for the rules. In view of a statement yesterday by the eminent nuclear physicist, Dr. Ralph E. Lapp, that an H-bomb with the power of 24 million tons of T.N.T. that was jettisoned over North Carolina January 24, 1961, came very close to exploding because five of its six safety devices failed, would the minister state whether United States planes carrying this type of bomb fly over Canada?


Douglas Scott Harkness: Mr. Speaker, first of all I would like to state that there is no confirmation whatsoever that that statement is correct. I notice that the United States defence department officials refused to accept or confirm it. So far as the latter part of the question is
Inquiries of the Ministry concerned, the situation in that regard has been made clear on many occasions in the past, and I am sure the hon. member must remember them. On June 3, 1958 the Prime Minister had this to say:
In the passages to which I have referred the house was informed that United States bomber aircraft carry nuclear weapons over Canada only with prior permission from Canada; that each flight is dealt with separately by specific application, and there is no blanket authority; that the weapons are inactivated in order to avoid the possibility of accidents; and that the procedures being followed are unchanged from those which had been instituted by the previous government.


Mr. Charles M. Drury (St. Anloine-Wesl-mount):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to address a question to the Minister of National Defence. Has Canada given to the United States any undertaking, express or implied, that we will accept and use nuclear weapons on or from Canadian soil?


Douglas Scott Harkness: Mr. Speaker, I have nothing to add to what has been said in connection with that whole question on numerous occasions here in the house during the past two or three years.



UNITED NATIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Paul Martin (Essex East):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Secretary of State for External Affairs a question based on a reply he gave to a question asked of him on Friday last by the hon. member for Greenwood. My question is, in view of the minister's declaration that the government of Canada is opposed to nuclear tests with or without control, will the Secretary of State for External Affairs say that Canada will support the resolution now standing in the name of 30 nations which was tabled last Friday at the United Nations, and which calls on the nuclear powers to cease all nuclear weapons tests before January 1, 1963.


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, we did not
receive the text of that resolution until the week end, and it is still under consideration.
(Translation):



REQUEST FOR FRENCH EDITION OF REVISED ESTIMATES

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Gilles Gregoire (Lapointe):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Finance.
782	HOUSE OF
Inquiries of the Ministry
We have recently received the English version of the bluebook (revised estimates). Would it be possible to know when we will receive the French version?
(Text):


Hon. George C. Nowlan (Minister of Finance):: Mr. Speaker, we receive the French
copy as soon as possible. It has been the practice for many years since confederation to use the same type and thereby avoid a very heavy expenditure. To bring them out simultaneously would cost a good many thousands of dollars more. At least that has been the practice up to the moment, but I can tell my hon. friend that I have issued instructions that they be brought down as soon as possible, and I would hope the French text will be available in a few days.



COMBINES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Robert Norman Thompson: Mr. Speaker, I should like to address a question to the Minister of Justice. What steps have been taken by the government to implement the recommendations of the restrictive trade practices commission contained in their recent report on an inquiry into the distribution and sale of automotive oils, greases, antifreeze, additives, tires, batteries, accessories and related products, and what further action does the government intend to take in this matter?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I think in this regard the hon. member had better put that question on the order paper.
(Translation):



AGRICULTURE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Bernard Dumont (Bellechasse):: My
question, Mr. Speaker, is directed to the Minister of Agriculture. Could the Canadian wheat board allow eastern farmers to buy feed grain from western farmers directly?


Mr. Speaker:: This is a question which, in my opinion, calls for an interpretation of the act by the Minister of Agriculture, or a statement of policy from the government. I believe that the hon. member should have his question placed on the order paper.


Bernard Dumont: The reason is, Mr. Speaker, that if the 92,000 farmers who earn under $1,200 a year were given such an opportunity, they would buy some without delay.


Mr. Dupuis:: This afternoon?


Bernard Dumont: Yes, and as regards transportation, at 9 cents a bushel there would be a substantial reduction in price.
(Text):



CANADIAN REPRESENTATION AT WORLD CONFERENCE

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Speaker, I have another question that I consider urgent. In view of the fact that the premier of British Columbia has sent his top experts on power policy, namely Dr. Gordon Shrum, M.M. and Dr. Hugh Keenleyside, V.M. to the world power conference in Australia for two or three weeks, would the minister inform the house whether the Canadian government will have a representative at this important conference?


Howard Charles Green: Yes, Mr. Speaker. The Canadian delegation will be led by Mr. T. M. Patterson, director of the water resources branch of the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources. He is honorary secretary of the Canadian section of the world power conference. The Canadian delegation also includes Mr. Alec Ignatieff, chief of the fuels and mining practice division, Department of Mines and Technical Surveys; Mr. Lome Gray, president of Atomic Energy of Canada Ltd., and Mr. A. V. Mooradian of Atomic Energy of Canada Ltd.



HEALTH AND WELFARE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Stanley Haidasz (Parkdale):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to address a question to the Minister of National Health and Welfare. Could he inform the house whether the food and drug directorate has definitely requested the withdrawal of the drug lysergic acid diethylamide both as regards its further production and its present use in research in mental diseases and alcoholism?


Hon. J. W. Monteith (Minister of National Health and Welfare):: Mr. Speaker, I think full discussion can be had on this particular drug at the time the amendment to the Food and Drugs Act is before the house.



CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Transport. Is the minister yet in a position to make any statement regarding the proposal of Canadian National Railways to go into the printing business?


Hon. Leon Balcer (Minister of Transport):: Mr. Speaker, I have received representations from various people, and these representations have been sent to the management of the C.N.R. The management of the C.N.R. has been in touch with these people, and that is where the matter stands now.



PUBLIC WORKS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Speaker, there is one more question I wish to address to the Minister of Public Works. In view of newspaper reports to the effect that the minister turned the first sod for a new federal building at Kamloops on Saturday, October 13, with a gold plated shovel which has been placed in the local museum, would the minister inform the house whether this gold plated shovel was purchased at the expense of his department?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I think the hon. member blotted an otherwise good copybook for today when he asked that question.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Mr. Speaker, do you think that the question, having been asked, might be answered? I am quite prepared to bow to your ruling, but the hon. member made a statement-


Some hon. Members:: Out of order.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. If there was ever a question out of order today, that was it.



WAYS AND MEANS

[Stage Direction]
On the order: Order No. 27: House again in committee of ways and means.
["Order. The time for private members' business having now expired, we\nwill revert to the business that was interrupted at five o'clock."]
Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. My point of order is based on standing order 58 and on the indication the government has given as to the purpose in calling the item that has just been read from the table. Standing order 58 reads as follows:
Ways and Means
When an order of the day is called for the house to go into committee of ways and means, Mr. Speaker shall leave the chair without Question put-
That is what Your Honour was about to do had I not risen quite so quickly. The standing order continues:
-but the provisions of this section shall not apply when the said order is called for the purpose of enabling a minister of the crown to make the budget presentation.
Mr. Speaker, I will refrain from getting into an argument regarding substance. I ask that you, sir, and the house note what has been said in recent days, last Thursday and Friday in particular, about today's business. It is quite clear that this order is being called so that the Minister of Finance can make a general statement on economic matters, so that he can discuss budgetary matters and lead into the presentation of the budget resolutions.
I submit, Mr. Speaker, that what is being asked for today is an opportunity for a minister of the crown to make a budget presentation. That being the case, the requirement of the standing order is quite clear. The requirement is that when the order is called for the purpose of enabling a minister of the crown to make a budget presentation, the provisions of subsection 1 of standing order 58 shall not apply. That means that if we are being asked to make arrangements today for a budget presentation, Mr. Speaker cannot leave the chair without question put; rather, the provisions of subsection 2 and the other subsections of standing order 58 come into effect.
I remind you, sir, that standing order 58 is relatively new. It was brought in in its present form in 1955. I was a member of the committee which drafted it, and I remember the discussions quite well. Prior to that time the order regarding the committee of ways and means read in such a way that it was possible to have a debate with Mr. Speaker in the chair every time the committee of ways and means was called. It was assumed in that committee that this was becoming inappropriate; that we should cut out the extra debates on the order for ways and means, but protect the one spot each year or each session as the case may be.
This is the one occasion this session when a budget presentation will be made, and in view of the fact that we have not had a budget presentation at any time in the year 1962-63 it is appropriate the government should now make one. I submit it is making such a presentation and that the latter part of standing order 58(1) applies, and that you should not leave the chair but, rather, that

Ways and Means
the Minister of Finance should make his budget presentation now with Your Honour in the chair.


Mr. Speaker:: With the greatest deference to the hon. member, I do not know whether he is able to read the mind of the Minister of Finance at this time, but there is nothing which indicates to me, either by a direct statement from the Minister of Finance or otherwise that he or any other minister intends to make a budget presentation in the accepted sense of the term. That being the case, how can the Chair avoid the direction of the peremptory portion of standing order 58, the opening portion?
That is the difficulty the Chair faces at the moment. There is no latitude given to the Chair but for this one exception cited in the subsection, concerning which I have no knowledge, no indication, and certainly no statement from the Minister of Finance. Thus with all due respect to the hon. member I am in the same position, I submit, as he is. Until the Minister of Finance says he is going to make a budget presentation I have no alternative but to follow the rules and leave the chair, and that is what I propose to do.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Would Your Honour permit me to draw your attention to what the leader of the house himself said on this matter, as reported on page 696 of Hansard for Thursday, October 18:
But if interim supply is concluded on Friday, we would then consider moving into ways and means on Monday and the Minister of Finance and other members of the house would deal with economic affairs.
Then the Minister of Finance would bring along the budget resolutions which are listed in Votes and Proceedings of September 27.
Then again on Friday morning, as reported on page 703 of Hansard, the leader of the house said:
The second suggestion I would make is that, again with the consent of the house, the Minister of Finance be permitted as much time as he requires for his statement and that whoever leads off for the official opposition also be granted as much time as is required to make a reply.
Earlier he had said:
Instead of speeches being related strictly to the budget resolution at the time, we suggest, and this would have to be done by consent of the house, that a general debate be permitted with the Minister of Finance leading off.
I submit we have been told we are going to have a general debate on financial and economic matters, and that it will lead into dealing with the budget resolutions which appeared in Votes and Proceedings at the beginning of the session, items which were mentioned in the speech from the throne and which were carried over from last April.

Then again, if Your Honour would look at Hansard for April 11, 1962, you will discover that the Prime Minister told the last session of parliament that under certain provisions we should be in a position to resume the budget debate. Last session the budget debate was not resumed after that indication had been given. As I see it, the leader of the house has told us that we are now to have a resumption of the budget debate, only he is saying that we should have it in committee of ways and means with the Speaker not in the chair.
I suggest that we are playing with words if we try to say that what the Minister of Finance is now about to give us is not a budget presentation. If it is not a budget presentation, then he is not being fair to the house; but I am satisfied he intends to make a full statement concerning the financial position of this country, leading into the budget resolutions. This is a budget presentation both within the clear meaning of words and within the terms of citation 58, subsection 1.


Lionel Chevrier: May I add
a few words in support of what already has been said. Your Honour seemed to have some doubt because we were anticipating before the minister made his statement what kind of statement he might make. I submit with deference that there should be no doubt on this point in the light of the answers which have been given repeatedly by the leader of the house since Thursday of last week. The hon. gentleman referred to this question on Friday morning and again on Friday evening.
I ask Your Honour to consider not only what is being said by the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre but also the answer which was given to me on October 19 last parts of which have already been read by the hon. member who preceded me. However this part was not and I quote from a statement made by the leader of the house:
This is a departure from the procedure in the past but it would open the way for a general discussion on economic matters in Canada. It would be in the committee stage where there is considerable freedom of debate and, with this opportunity being provided, we would hope that the house might see fit to deal rather promptly with interim supply today, which involves asking for a month's supply just to carry on the normal business of the government.
I do not think there was any doubt in the mind of the leader of the house at that time -certainly there was none in mine-that the nature of the statement or speech to be made by the Minister of Finance would involve economic and financial matters.
Before Your Honour leaves the chair I think the Minister of Finance should indicate to the house what kind of statement he intends

to make, because we have not had a budget debate within the present fiscal year so tar. What kind of statement is he going to give us other than the kind indicated by the leader of the house, which could be nothing else than a budget statement without a budget?


Mr. Hellyer:: He is going to tell us nothing except what he wants us to know.


Gordon Minto Churchill: It would not take me more than one minute to do that.


Mr. Fleming (Eglinlon):: The hon. member for Trinity.


Mr. Speaker:: I think gratuitous statements should not be made by members speaking from their seats. Notwithstanding the fact that the Speaker is now addressing the house, I do feel the hon. member should direct his attention to what the Chair is saying. We should not have these gratuitous remarks which somehow have a habit of getting on to Hansard. I will now recognize the leader of the house.


Gordon Minto Churchill: I want to refer to the remarks made by the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre and repeated in part by the hon. member for Laurier. The hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre attempted to put words into my mouth that I did not use at all, and he tried to interpret them to suit his own purpose. The words I used in the house on Thursday when I was announcing the business were these, and let us get the record straight so that everybody may be aware of what has been going on. On Thursday night, dealing with the business for Friday, interim supply and so on, I said we would consider moving into committee of ways and means on Monday.


An hon. Member:: Where is that?


Gordon Minto Churchill: Page 696.


Stanley Howard Knowles: The same page from which I read.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Yes, the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre read it and then interpreted it.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Misinterpreted it.


Gordon Minto Churchill: "Misinterpreted" is correct. I said we would then consider moving into ways and means on Monday and the Minister of Finance and other members of the house would deal with economic affairs. That is what hon. members had been asking us to do. Then I said that afterwards the Minister of Finance would bring along the budget resolutions which are listed in Votes and Proceedings of September 27. There is not one word which indicates there that there
Ways and Means
would be a budget presentation. I defy the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre to read that from the words there on the record of Hansard.
Similarly on October 19, when I was answering the hon. member for Laurier when dealing with the business of the house, I said that if the house agreed with the proposal 1 made, then, and only then, there would be a general discussion in the committee of ways and means when the first resolution was in front of us. I said, as the hon. member for Laurier correctly repeated, that this is departure from the procedure in the past. It is a departure to this extent, that when you are dealing with a budget resolution the rule of relevancy prevails and you have to direct your remarks directly to that budget resolution. But in view of the general circumstances here I suggested-and my suggestion has not yet been accepted by other parties-that we might waive that rule of relevancy on the first resolution and have a general discussion on economic matters.
Mr. Speaker, I submit that that has nothing to do with the presentation of a budget as it is understood in this house, and has been understood for 100 years; and the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre cannot twist and distort the proper meaning of words by any such suggestion and attempt to mislead, as it appears to me he was doing, hon. members of this house. There was nothing in my statement dealing with a budget presentation.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, surely on this point there is no reason why discussion should not take place with you in the chair, and a good many reasons why it should not take place unless you are in the chair. May we ask the government why they have not accepted the very reasonable suggestion we have made, that the discussion should take place with Mr. Speaker in the chair so that all the consequences which follow from that course may be taken?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, the course which the government proposes here is in accord with the practice of the house and well established authorities on the subject. First of all we have on the order paper item No. 27, "House again in committee of ways and means". Link that, sir, with standing order 58. In my submission the rule is crystal clear. The order provides:
When an order of the day is called for the house to go into committee of ways and means, Mr. Speaker shall leave the chair without question put-

Ways and Means
That is the general rule, and it could not be more clearly stated. There is one exception, Mr. Speaker, and only one. It is that- -the provisions of this section shall not apply when the said order is called for the purpose of enabling a minister of the crown to make the budget presentation.
Surely, Mr. Speaker, to depart from the general rule, it is necessary that the case be brought squarely within the exception; and far from the case before us now being brought within the exception, it has been stated in the plainest possible terms that the item is not being called in order to enable a minister of the crown to make a budget presentation. It does not lie within the mouth of the Leader of the Opposition, or the hon. member for Laurier, or the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre, to put words in the mouth of a minister of the crown. It does not lie within their power to impose upon the government an intention to use this procedure for a purpose other than that for which the government proposes to use it. Therefore it seems to me that the opposition-the hon. members to whom I have referred-are vastly exceeding their rights in attempting to dictate this course.
Mr. Speaker, let me indicate-I hope I will not be long in doing so-why this procedure that the government is proposing today is correct and why it has well established precedents to support it. I submit that it is altogether out of order to raise this point as it has been raised. This is a simple motion. It is quite unlike a budget motion; for that, after all, Mr. Speaker, is a presentation in which, with due announcement beforehand according to the practice of the house, the minister of finance customarily moves to resolve the house into committee of ways and means on certain proposed resolutions, which he introduces as part of his budget speech and which are then inscribed in the records of this house as part of the budget speech.
That is in no way whatever the situation today. What the house is being asked to do today is to go into committee of ways and means. The note on the order paper simply makes reference to resolutions that appear on the notice paper of Votes and Proceedings of September 27, 1962. So this is not to be equated at all with a budget presentation. No minister is asking to make a budget speech to the house, Mr. Speaker.


Mr. Gordon:: There should be.


Donald Methuen Fleming: The hon. member for Davenport can pontificate elsewhere, but he will have to earn his spurs in this house before he talks in that way. I can assure him in a very friendly spirit that he has a long

way to go yet. Mr. Speaker, hon. members opposite are trying to play with words on this subject of budgets. I stress what has already been stated in clear terms in this house. This is not a budget presentation which is proposed today.


An hon. Member:: When will there be a budget?


Donald Methuen Fleming: If the hon. member opposite will desist from using his lungs and his voice and uses his ears instead, I think he will find them a more useful organ for the purpose.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. At the moment we are hearing the Minister of Justice. If there are no provocations, perhaps there will be no provocative answers. If we listen to the hon. member who has the floor I think we will get rather more light than heat.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, the house has already been assured that there will be a budget-not today, but that there will be a budget-in due course. When that is introduced the normal procedure of the house will be followed. Today, Mr. Speaker, as the house has been made aware, this is a matter of dealing with certain tax changes which were proposed last April and were not completed before dissolution. May I remind the house that six months and a general election have intervened since the budget of April 10 this year. The house does not simply begin where it left off in April.
On the point that hon. members claim to be deprived by the motion today of the right to introduce amendments and to have a debate with the Speaker in the chair, that assertion is hollow and specious. Amendments to the budget, as everyone knows, are rarely related to the actual terms of the budget proposals. Usually they consist of general condemnation of policy or administration. This type of amendment can be introduced on supply motions. It can be introduced on the budget when the budget is introduced in due course. I say that every amendment which any hon. member could wish to introduce to a budget, if it were introduced now, could be moved on a supply motion, and we will be having six of them in the course of the session if the house chooses to go forward. Mr. Speaker, let me remind the house that a few days ago we completed the debate on the address, and there were no fewer than five motions in general terms of the same nature as those usually moved on the budget. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, this talk of being deprived of the right to introduce amendments or subamendments is surely entirely hollow and unsubstantial.

The argument is made that there is some right on the part of the house to have a discussion with Mr. Speaker in the chair. The answer to that, of course, is very simple; it is that this debate is not a budget presentation. But in passing let me observe, in case it becomes relevant to any point which may be made in the course of this discussion, that we have an established practice now which was not the practice in the early years of confederation. In the earlier years the budget speech was sometimes delivered in the house, sometimes in committee of supply, and sometimes in committee of ways and means. It is only since 1875 that the practice was established of having the speech delivered with the Speaker in the chair; and even after that it was not always the practice to resolve the house into committee of ways and means, for in five years at least, 1875, 1878, 1889, 1892 and 1896 the procedure followed was to resolve the house into committee of supply.
But, sir, let us deal with the practice as we have it, the practice that a budget presentation is delivered on a motion to resolve the house into committee of ways and means in accordance with the second part of the first section of standing order 58. There was a suggestion here on Friday that if there were not a budget presentation now there would be a departure in that regard from a long standing practice of having a budget presentation. Mr. Speaker, there was a budget presentation this year. It was on April 10. But if hon. members opposite are saying that in every calendar year since confederation there has been a budget presentation they are wrong. There were suggestions of that kind being bandied about very freely if not in this house then outside it on Friday last. The fact is, Mr. Speaker, that there was no budget presentation in the calendar year 1907 and no budget presentation in the calendar year 1910. It is not without significance, Mr. Speaker, that those were years of a Liberal government and the minister of finance-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I think we should confine the discussion narrowly to the point of order and the Chair would then be quite prepared to give its interpretation.


Donald Methuen Fleming: The minister of finance at that time was none other than the redoubtable W. S. Fielding-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Donald Methuen Fleming: -the dean of ministers of finance in Canada.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. With all due deference to the Minister of Justice, I think we should come to a much narrower approach to the point of order and unless there is someone else
Ways and Means
who wishes to address the Chair or to introduce a new argument the Chair is quite prepared to give its decision.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, may I seek to address myself to the point which is concerning Your Honour, and understandably so, because the situation before us is somewhat unique. It is true that standing order 58 clearly provides that there is a circumstance, the presentation of the budget, which excuses the automatic operation of standing order 58. Of course we have not heard from the Minister of Finance himself. It is not clear whether we are going to have a budget de novo, although the Minister of Finance spoke to the contrary the other day. However, it might be a budget in some form which has a relation to the budget already presented to this house in this fiscal year.
Because of the difficulty which obviously confronts Your Honour and confronts all of us in interpreting standing order 58, may I suggest to Your Honour that to understand the situation fully one must bear in mind the events which have occasioned the procedure in the house at this moment. There was a presentation of a budget. There was an assurance that there would be given to members of this house the opportunity of a traditional debate in accordance with the length of time prescribed under our rules. This did not eventuate.
The budget was delivered one night. The Leader of the Opposition was given the opportunity of replying during the course of only 15 minutes. That was the only debate which took place on this year's budget. The rules were not so interpreted or recognized by the government to permit six days of debate. The only speech that has been delivered on the budget, in connection with which I argue we are now going to hear something further from the Minister of Finance, was the 15 minute statement made by the Leader of the Opposition in the house the night that the budget was presented. Dissolution intervened and the government has found it necessary to bring in some additional amendments to the budgetary program in the form of orders in council providing for emergency situations arising out of our balance of payments position.
The Minister of Finance is going to discuss the present financial situation in relation to the budget introduced last spring concerning which no opportunity has been given to the opposition parties to comment, except for the abbreviated statement of the Leader of the Opposition. The result is that while there may not be an obligation annually, as the Minister of Justice says, to observe the desirability of bringing in a budget, apart altogether from what is proper the fact is that

Ways and Means
nowhere in Canadian history will we find any occasion when the opposition has been denied the traditional right of bringing in an amendment to the budget presented by the Queen's minister of finance. And, Mr. Speaker, I argue with great respect that the partial budget statement that the Minister of Finance is going to make today is related to the budget. It is an interpolation of that budget, an extension of its terms and an explanation thereof, rendered necessary because of the dissolution of parliament and because of the emergency having arisen.
That is what I say Your Honour must do in giving a liberal interpretation to standing order 58. I suggest that this is a vital matter and I am sure that Your Honour so regards it. I suggest that Your Honour should stay in the chair. The only way that the opposition can bring forward an amendment to a budget, if it wishes to do so, is if Your Honour is in the chair.
I suggest to Your Honour that the interpretation I make of standing order 58 is one that in the circumstances is consistent with the standing order, and the only way out of the dilemma in which we find ourselves. If that interpretation is not made, then Your Honour unwittingly will have contributed to a situation in which for the first time in Canadian history it will be said that the opposition was denied the right to present a traditional amendment to the budgetary presentation of the government.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, may I say a word in reply to the hon. gentleman by way of correction of his argument, and then refer to two precedents. What happened last April, sir, was this. I brought in a budget presentation on the evening of April 10. The Leader of the Opposition spoke at the end of my presentation. He and I could both have had more time on that occasion but for the stifling intransigence of some hon. members in another group. He did not choose to move any amendment, but on Tuesday, April 17, he made a very lengthy speech on the budget.


Lester Bowles Pearson: It was not on the budget.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Where do you suppose he made it, Mr. Speaker? He made it in committee of ways and means. He was discussing this very budget and he chose to do so in committee of ways and means and was not in any respect inhibited in so doing. It is true that, although we were in committee, I was prevented from replying because of the bedlam and howling set up by the Liberals opposite.
The following day, April 18, the then member for Burnaby-Coquitlam spoke on the budget for the New Democratic party. Where did
[Mr. Martin (Essex East).)
he speak? He spoke in committee of ways and means. So, Mr. Speaker, there is an abundance of precedent for the discussion of these resolutions in committee of ways and means by hon. members opposite, and that precedent could not be clearer.
But I said there were two precedents. May I refer briefly to those. One is in 1947 and the other in 1957. In 1947 a second session of parliament was called. It assembled on December 5. There had been what has come to be known as a budget by radio presented before parliament met. This was on November 17. To the house, the minister of finance presented a program for the prohibition of imports, provision for import quotas, permits and applications, and increased excise taxes.
Now, Mr. Speaker, that was a very broad financial program. How did he present it? What procedure did he follow? Did he present a budget? Did he make a budget presentation where there were amendments, subamendments and debate? What he did was to introduce on December 11 a bill, not preceded by any resolution whatever. He introduced a bill respecting foreign exchange conservation. The next stage of that measure was on December 16, as reported at page 323 of Hansard, where he moved second reading. Debate proceeded on second reading, without any resolution whatever.
Then, Mr. Speaker, on December 19, 1947, as you will see if you look at page 535 of Hansard, with respect to the application of the increases in taxation, the excise tax, there was no budget. The minister of finance moved that the house go into committee of ways and means, exactly what we are doing here, sir. The house agreed. There was no debate. It is just what we are doing today. There was no budget, no amendment, and no subamendment. So much for 1947.
Then, let us go to 1957. What happened in that year? There had been a budget presentation in the spring. When the house met, a new house, following a change of government, there were requests from hon. members for another budget. Well, Mr. Speaker, on December 2 the Prime Minister said that there would be no formal budget. On December 6, in committee of supply, I made a statement. I first of all conducted a very brief review, pointing out the revision of the estimates for the balance of revenues and expenditures. Then, I gave a statement on certain measures which the government would bring forward.
Then, as reported on pages 2022 to 2024 of Hansard, the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Knowles) raised a point of order. I give him credit for having put his point with characteristic thoroughness. The objection taken, sir-there had been, of

course, objection that this should not be done in committee of supply-by the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre was, and his insistence was, that any taxation changes have to be made in committee of ways and means. This was his point. In the discussions at that time, the point was clearly established that the effect of the tax changes that were proposed was to reduce taxes. It was a reduction, and this is a point of significance. Then, Mr. Speaker, what happened? This was the discussion that followed on that same night.
Another point of order was raised on December 9 by the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre following this statement in committee of supply. You will find that, as reported at page 2075 of Hansard, I introduced two bills for first reading. One was to amend the Excise Tax Act. The other was to amend the Income Tax Act, without prior resolution of any kind.
Then, a point of order was raised on the first bill. The point of order was as to whether this bill should be introduced without a resolution. The point of order was taken on the motion for first reading of these bills. The point that was raised was not whether or not there should be a budget presentation with the Speaker in the chair; that was not the point. The point was whether or not there had to be an antecedent resolution. You will find a ruling given by the Speaker, Mr. Speaker Michener, reported at page 2082 of Hansard. May I read, Mr. Speaker, what he had to say, in the essential portions? After dealing with the point as to the relevancy of section 54 of the British North America Act, he goes on to say:
This question before us, however, is quite different from that. It is a question of a bill which on its face-and we have the bill here-is not a bill to raise money but a bill to reduce taxation. Without going through the citations again in Bourinot, Beauchesne and May, I think I can indicate very briefly to the house the opinion X accept. It is set out in May, fifteenth edition, at page 764. There you have a statement under the heading "Alleviation of Taxation", and it is in these words:
"Provisions for the alleviation of taxation are not subject to the rules of financial procedure. The repeal or reduction of taxes, for instance, by the finance bill, is sometimes preceded by a specific ways and means resolution but this procedure is neither necessary nor usual."
I find that in this parliament the same thing has happened on occasion.
Here, the Speaker is dealing with the point raised by the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre that there was a difference in the procedure of this parliament as compared with that prevailing at Westminster.
A measure to reduce taxation has been preceded by a resolution, as was pointed out by the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre, and sometimes it has not. There are quite a number of instances where bills to reduce taxation have been introduced without being preceded by a resolution
Ways and Means
and the necessity of the procedure which was argued for by the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre.
I will not read any more of that citation. The only question is my own mind was whether that British practice might be applicable in this par- ' liament, and I find that both Bourinot and Beauchesne assume that it does and, in fact, say so in citations which I have here. Therefore, I am satisfied that we are following a correct procedure in permitting this bill to be introduced without a resolution.
Now, here it comes down to this point, that the measures which appear in Votes and Proceedings, being in fact measures to reduce taxation, do not require any antecedent resolution at all. However, the government has gone very far, Mr. Speaker, in asking the house to examine these proposed tax reductions, these resolutions respecting tax reductions in committee of ways and means. This is in the light of the proposal made by my hon. friend, the leader of the house, in which he invited the consent of all parties in the house for this purpose. Surely, this represents going a very long way to afford the house unlimited opportunity for discussion.
It only remains, Mr. Speaker, to comment on the course-and I make one comment only on this-of the measures to which I referred in 1957. I referred to the fact that the bill to amend the Excise Tax Act was not preceded by any resolution, any debate with the Speaker in the chair. There was no budget presentation. You will find, Mr. Speaker, by reference to Hansard, what happened on second reading. In the light of the discussion on the point of order on first reading, it is interesting that the house divided and second reading of that bill was given, if you please, by a vote of 175 to 0.
I find, among those voting in support of the bill, a bill making tax changes and this is on December 12, 1957 as recorded on page 2276 of Hansard, after all the discussion there had been at an earlier stage in regard to the introduction of amendments to the Excise Tax Act without an antecedent resolution in committee of ways and means, those recorded as having supported this second reading of the bill include the following names: St. Laurent, Pickersgill, Chevrier, Coldwell and Knowles.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. On this point, it is not that I am going to make a ruling at this moment and declare that any further discussion is superfluous, but I would like to direct the attention of hon. members to the point, that what we have here is a question of order and it is not the question of the merits or demerits, of whether there should be discussion or not. The question is whether,

Ways and Means
under this procedure that is proposed at the moment, the Speaker shall leave the chair or not.
That is the narrow point of order and I certainly would not be the one to say whether there is ample or insufficient opportunity to discuss the matters referred to. That is not the proposition at this moment. The ruling is in the light of the standing order, and I would earnestly submit to hon. members that they should direct their attention to that point.
I have allowed pretty free discussion on both sides on that particular question, but I think we should come back to the interpretation of the order as it is listed on the order paper-the effect of standing order No. 58- and also what are the requirements to go into a budget presentation as it affects the Speaker.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, if I venture to intervene again it is because of the remarks of the Minister of Justice, particularly those which referred to me and which, unwittingly of course, completely misrepresented the situation in regard to the budget introduced last April and the debate that took place on that budget.
The facts are these, and they have a bearing on our discussion, that the budget was introduced by the then minister of finance who spoke for a couple of hours, and I was allowed 12 minutes or so at the end of the evening to reply. That is the normal procedure. No one complained about that, as we thought the budget debate would be resumed; that I would have an opportunity to finish my speech and that the budget debate would then continue.
That did not happen. The government saw fit not to bring the budget again before the House of Commons at all, so the only way we on this side could make any further contribution to the budget debate was to take advantage of the motion to go into committee on ways and means on interim supply, when I was able to make a general statement. Now the argument of the Minister of Justice is that, having taken advantage of that situation, in those unusual circumstances, so as to have a budget debate, the only way we can continue such a debate today is to take advantage of the same kind of circumstances and go into committee on ways and means. That part of the minister's statement does not make sense and is not relevant.
If the Minister of Finance (Mr. Nowlan) makes his presentation he will have to take into account the changes in revenue produced by the surcharges and the changes in expenditures produced in the revised estimates. Those two things, Mr. Speaker, surely cover
[Mr. Speaker.)
a budget presentation. But we are being asked to take part in this discussion, in this budget presentation, without a motion before us, without a Speaker in the chair, without any possibility of an amendment being offered, and without any possibility of a decision being reached in regard to the presentation of policy made by the minister.
This is what we are being asked to do at this time, to hold a budget debate without a budget, a budget debate in which there can be no decision reached of any kind.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, I shall endeavour to be brief.


Mr. Speaker:: At this point I would ask hon. members to bear in mind the restrictions I imposed prior to the Leader of the Opposition speaking. I think the point has been sufficiently covered. This is not a debate on the yea or nay, on the merits or demerits of whether a discussion shall or shall not take place on so-called financial measure. The question, as the rules face the Speaker on this item of business, is whether the Speaker has any alternative but to leave the chair.


Stanley Howard Knowles: One of the points made by the Minister of Justice was that there were two or three years in which there was no budget presentation. That is true; but one point which emerges from reading the history, and I have read the same history as the Minister of Justice, is that when there have been budget presentations since 1879 they have been made with Mr. Speaker in the chair.
I submit, Mr. Speaker, that the precedents of 1947 and 1957, cited by the Minister of Justice, are completely irrelevant. In both of the fiscal years covered by 1947 and 1957, whatever else we might think of what went on in those years, there were budget presentations and there were opportunities to debate the budgets of the fiscal years.
In the case of 1947, which the Minister of Justice drew to our attention, I wish he had read the words he used at that time characterizing what the minister of finance was doing in those days, particularly his use of the term tyranny.


Mr. Speaker:: With respect, we are going back to the question of the merits or demerits of whether there is going to be a full budget discussion, or freedom of discussion. With the greatest respect, that is not the point at issue.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I accept that, Mr. Speaker, and I hope when you made that point you realized how irrelevant were the two precedents quoted by the Minister of Justice, because in those years there had been budget presentations.


Mr. Speaker:: Perhaps to the same extent any replies or rebuttals thereto are also irrelevant.


Stanley Howard Knowles: But, Mr. Speaker, you
already permitted 10 or 15 minutes of that debate and I think we should have the opportunity to set aside the points made by the Minister of Justice by using the very words which the Minister of Justice used when he sat on the opposition benches in this house in 1947.
I submit that thus far in this fiscal year we have had no opportunity to deal with the budget presentation, and we have the clear statement from the government benches that we are now going to get a budget presentation. If that is not so, then it is not worth while for the Minister of Finance to take the floor. I submit on that basis Your Honour has to apply the second part of subsection (1) of standing order 58.
It has been said that there are other opportunities to do this sort of thing. It is perfectly true that the house might vote for every budget resolution which the Minister of Finance brings before us; but the tradition of this house is that we have the opportunity to vote not only on the individual resolutions but the opportunity, on the budget presentation, to express our confidence or non-confl-dence in the budgetary policies of the government as a whole.
Since we are being told we are going to get a full statement from the Minister of Finance-he promised that-and bearing in mind the taxes that have been announced and changed, and the changes in the estimates, then surely the minister is going to give us a budget presentation. Surely he is asking the house to support taxation changes on the basis of the accounts which he, as Minister of Finance, will present to us.
To get back to the point which Your Honour has dealt with, it is quite clear we are being asked to make arrangements for a budget presentation and therefore Your Honour should stay in the chair.


Lionel Chevrier: I shall not take any great length of time, Mr. Speaker, and I hope I shall be to the point. There are two points I would like to make in connection with the matter which is now before the house. There is standing order 58; and as has been rightly said, there is only one exception to the purport of the application of this order, and that is a budget presentation.
The whole matter boils down to whether or not the statement which the Minister of Finance is going to make is or is not a budget presentation. I submit to you, with deference, that it is. It is a budget presentation because of what the leader of the house said on
Ways and Means
Thursday and again on Friday, in stating that unanimous consent would be required when the resolutions were before us in order to have a general debate. That could mean this, and only this, that if unanimous consent is required, then we could have a debate which might last for a whole month on this very matter. I do not imagine that it would; but we certainly could have a debate that would last much longer than the usual six days. Therefore, if it was the intention to seek out this extraordinary procedure it was because something extraordinary was being done, namely getting away from the normal procedure in order to deal with an abnormal situation.
I hold in my hand now the budget resolutions which were tabled and which will be under discussion when we come to this particular matter. They clearly indicate to me that what the Minister of Justice has said could not be applicable, because when we come down to them we will not be allowed to make amendments dealing with the general financial policy of the government.
In other words, sir-I see you are rising and I do not want to abuse the time of the house-there is no doubt in our minds that this is another form of closure that has been found by the government to curtail the rights of the opposition, and furthermore the government is in fear of its life and that is why it is proceeding in this way.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. As I said, it is not my purpose to deal with the merits of whether or not there shall be discussion. That is quite extraneous to the point of order. I would have hoped that hon. members would have held themselves to that point.
We are faced here with item No. 27 on the order paper, the house again in committee of ways and means. We then deal with standing order 58, which, upon the house going into committee of ways and means, says Mr. Speaker shall leave-"shall leave"; this is mandatory, peremptory on the Chair-the Chair without question put. There is then the proviso about the budget presentation.
I would draw to the attention of hon. members the fact that on a budget presentation there is a motion made by the Minister of Finance that the Speaker do now leave the chair. No such motion is before this house. Further, I would submit to hon. members that Mr. Speaker has no authority to compel any member of the government to propose a motion. If the Minister of Finance does not propose the motion that the Speaker do leave the chair, nor do any of his colleagues, then we are not into what I can only term a budget presentation, because while hon. members on all sides of the house might have their own opinion as to what may be coming, the Chair

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cannot anticipate what is coming. Therefore I cannot rule that there is to follow a budget presentation.
In the light of that, therefore, I rule that the first portion of standing order 58 will apply and I have no alternative but to leave the chair; and that is what I propose to do.
The house in committee of ways and means, Mr. Chown in the chair.



[Stage Direction]
Resolved,-that it is expedient to introduce a measure to amend the Income Tax Act and to provide among other things:
1.	That for the 1962 and subsequent taxation years the" amount deductible in computing taxable income in respect of a child qualified for family allowance be increased to $300 and the amount deductible in respect of other dependants be increased to $550 each.
2.	That with respect to income earned after March 31, 1962 a corporation whose principal business is manufacturing or processing (not including a corporation whose principal business is shipbuilding, mining, logging or the operation of oil or gas wells) be allowed to deduct from its tax otherwise payable an amount equal to 50 per cent of the tax on the first $50,000, of its taxable income attributable to increased sales and an amount equal to 25 per cent of the tax on the remainder of its taxable income so attributable.
3.	That with respect to its first taxation year ending after April 10, 1962 and the next succeeding four taxation years a corporation be permitted to deduct in computing income 150 per cent of the amount by which expenditures of a current and capital nature on scientific research in Canada incurred by it in the year exceed expenditures of a current and capital nature on scientific research in Canada incurred by it in its last taxation year ending on or before April 10, 1962.
4.	That for the 1962 to 1966 taxation years both inclusive the deduction from tax allowed to corporations in respect of taxable income earned in a province be increased from 9 per cent to 10 per cent in a prescribed province in which arrangements exist for the replacement of federal grants to universities by additional provincial grants in accordance with the proposed amendments to the Federal-Provincial Fiscal Arrangements Act.
5.	That with respect to taxation years commencing in 1962 a taxpayer be allowed a deduction from tax of an amount equal to the lesser of two-thirds of the amount payable for the year to a province as a tax on income from logging operations or § of 10 per cent of the taxpayer's income from logging operations in the province, and the right to deduct in computing income amounts paid to a province as tax on income from logging operations be repealed.
6.	That with respect to expenses incurred after April 10, 1962 any corporation be allowed to deduct in computing income the drilling and exploration expenses, including all general geological and geophysical expenses, incurred by it on or in respect of exploring or drilling for petroleum or natural gas in Canada and the prospecting, exploration and development expenses incurred by it in searching for minerals in Canada not exceeding its income for the year from oil or gas wells in Canada.
7.	That with respect to expenses incurred after April 10, 1962 an individual be allowed to deduct in computing income the drilling and exploration ex-

penses, including all general geological and geophysical expenses, incurred by him on or in respect of exploring or drilling for petroleum or natural gas in Canada not exceeding his income for the year from oil or gas wells in Canada.
8.	That with respect to acquisitions after April 10, 1962 amounts paid by
(a)	a corporation whose principal business is production, refining or marketing of petroleum, petroleum products or natural gas, or exploring or drilling for petroleum or natural gas, or mining or exploring for minerals,
(b)	an association, partnership or syndicate formed for the purpose of exploring or drilling for petroleum or natural gas,
(c)	a corporation (other than a corporation that qualifies under (a)), or
(d)	an individual for a right, licence or privilege to explore for, drill for or take petroleum or natural gas in Canada shall be classed as drilling or exploration expenses for purposes of computing deductions from income.
9.	That with respect to sales of property acquired after April 10, 1962 there shall be included in the income of a taxpayer any amount received as consideration for the disposition of a right, licence or privilege to explore for, drill for or take petroleum or natural gas except where the right, licence or privilege was acquired by inheritance or bequest.
10.	That the right of a successor corporation to
deduct drilling, exploration, prospecting and development expenses incurred by a predecessor corporation from the income of the successor corporation attributable to the production of petroleum or natural gas from wells, or the production of minerals from mines, situated on property acquired from the predecessor corporation shall not be lost by reason °/	. faci that the successor corporation assumed
liabilities of the predecessor corporation.
11.	That a joint exploration corporation may renounce an appropriate share of the drilling, exploration, prospecting and development expenses incurred by it after 1956 in searching for oil, gas or minerals in Canada in favour of a shareholder corporation whose principal business is
(a)	production, refining or marketing of petroleum, petroleum products or natural gas, or exploring or drilling for petroleum or natural gas,
(b)	mining or exploring for minerals,
(c)	processing mineral ores for the purpose of recovering metals therefrom,
(d)	a combination of
(i)	processing mineral ores for the purpose of recovering metals therefrom, and
(ii)	processing metals recovered from the ores so processed, or
(e)	fabricating metals,
and in such case the expenses renounced shall be deductible by the shareholder corporation and not by the joint exploration corporation.
12.	That the right of a successor corporation to deduct drilling, exploration, prospecting and development expenses incurred by a predecessor corporation from the income of the successor corporation attributable to the production of petroleum or natural gas from wells, or the production of minerals from mines, situated on property acquired from the predecessor corporation be extended to a second successor corporation which has acquired the property from a predecessor corporation which was itself a successor corporation.
13.	That for the 1962 and subsequent taxation years income earned in Canada by a non-resident corporation whose principal business is mining iron ore in Canada, be exempt from the additional 15 per cent tax imposed by Part IIIA on profits earned in Canada by non-resident corporations.
14.	That where an employee who is a member of one deferred profit sharing plan becomes a member

of another deferred profit sharing plan the amount to his credit in the first mentioned plan may be transferred to his credit in the second mentioned plan without attracting tax on the amount so transferred.
15.	That the amount to the credit of an annuitant under a registered retirement savings plan may be transferred at any time before the maturity of the plan to another registered retirement savings plan or to a registered pension fund or plan without attracting tax on the amount so transferred.
Lester Bowles Pearson: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. I just want to make sure that we know exactly where we stand in regard to the statement which presumably the Minister of Finance is now going to make. We anticipate that statement, of course, in the light of the statement made previously by the house leader as to the ground it is likely to cover, provided he gets the unanimous consent of this committee. The fact that he has to receive the consent of every hon. member of this committee shows how unusual is this procedure; indeed, how unique and unprecedented it is.
I do not propose, myself, to do anything to prevent the minister making this kind of statement, which we anticipate will be a budget statement. We assume that the minister will be, in effect, making a budget statement. We on this side of the chamber are very anxious to get the whole budgetary position before parliament and before the country. We hope the minister will make that kind of statement even though we are prevented by this procedure from dealing with the statement in the way in which it should be dealt with.
So far as we are concerned, Mr. Chairman, we will waive at this time our right to protest again about this procedure; and so far as I am concerned, if the minister wishes to make a general statement at this time we will not keep him strictly to the rule of relevance, no matter what we may think of the procedure that has been adopted.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Chairman, in connection with the point of order raised by the Leader of the Opposition, in so far as unanimous consent is concerned, that was asked in anticipation of the Minister of Finance speaking at length beyond the ordinary period allowed. There is no budget presentation; there will be no budget presentation. The budget will come in due course. I want to make that very clear. Furthermore, when my hon. friends opposite talk about closure-


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


The Chairman:: Order.


Lionel Chevrier: The point of order, sir, is that this matter-
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John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Chairman-


Gordon Campbell Chown: Order. I think at the outset I should just make the observation that a fair amount of latitude was allowed the Leader of the Opposition in the comments he had to make. I have no idea what point of order the hon. member for Laurier is raising, but I will be glad to hear him.


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Chairman, the point of order I raise is this, that we did discuss the matter when the Speaker was in the chair and that matter, I understand, was disposed of. Now the Prime Minister is attempting to smuggle or bootleg in exactly the same thing that was prohibited then. My submission to you, Mr. Chairman, is this. I have no objection, but I trust that we will be given the opportunity to reply under exactly the same circumstances as the Prime Minister is being given at the moment.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Chairman, I am very interested in the word "smuggle" used by the hon. member for Laurier. I am glad he used that expression to describe what he said just a few moments ago when he referred to the question of closure. This is not a budget presentation. I never knew of closure which would permit hon. members of the house to discuss a matter for 30 days if they chose to do so. That is what we are doing here; we are giving them every opportunity to have their say.


Miss LaMarsh:: Without a vote.


John George Diefenbaker: Indeed, one hon. member opposite said this afternoon that under normal circumstances it would be extraordinary if there were a budget debate of six days. Now they have this additional time. In addition to that, if my hon. friends opposite have objection to the Minister of Finance making a general statement on the economy rather than a budget presentation, he certainly will not go ahead in that direction at all. We do not want to do anything that is against their wishes.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Lionel Chevrier: Let me assure the Prime Minister at once that there is not the slightest objection to the Minister of Finance going ahead in the manner in which it is his intention to do. What there is objection to, and serious objection, is the extraordinary manner in which this is being done by the government-that the Minister of Finance is allowed to make this lengthy statement on monetary and financial affairs, a state of the nation speech, as it were, without the usual right of the opposition to move amendments to the policy of the government-

Income Tax Act


John George Diefenbaker: You have been moving amendments ever since the session began.


Lionel Chevrier: -thereby imposing another form of closure.


Stanley Howard Knowles: We have already made our statement on this question, and I will add only a brief word to it. We have made it very clear that in our opinion this is the wrong way of handling this matter. Nevertheless, a ruling has been made by the Speaker and we are now in committee of ways and means.
I think it should be clear where we go from here. If it is the desire that the Minister of Finance should have unlimited time and sufficient scope to make what will amount to a budget presentation, we believe the same scope should be allowed to all members of the house and that there should be no limitation on time as far as this debate is concerned. It is our view that an understanding should be reached on this point.


Gordon Campbell Chown: I might point out, that of course, I am the servant of the committee and of the rules. Unanimous consent would be necessary to vary the rules which are set down for me in standing order 59. I shall continue to apply those rules as fairly and impartially as I can in all the circumstances. If unanimous consent is required to broaden the scope of this discussion in any way, then I shall have to wait until a member of the committee makes that suggestion and seeks unanimous consent.


Robert Norman Thompson: As most of us in this comer of the house are not experienced or learned in all these questions of procedure, as are some hon. members who have preceded us, we have not entered into this discussion so far. However, the Speaker has left the chair, the ruling has been made, and in support of the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre we would say: let us get on with this and give the Minister of Finance the time he needs in order to get on with it, provided there is the same privilege for every member of this committee. If we continue in this way much longer the whole budget for the year is going to be spent before we have even begun to discuss it.


George Clyde Nowlan: I am in the hands of the committee, as you, Mr. Chairman, have indicated. I propose to deal first of all with the income tax resolutions which were set down in the Journals. Then, with the consent of the committee and with the understanding of hon. members that I could deal with such matters, I would go farther afield and review the general economic situation in Canada, without, I hope, taking unlimited time in which to do

it. I am not looking forward to speaking for hours and hours. I should probably need more than the 30 minutes to which I would ordinarily be entitled, but I certainly have no thought of giving a lengthy dissertation. I certainly would not want it understood that every member of the committee should have an unlimited time in which to deal with this subject. The leaders of the parties should, perhaps, have all the time they would require, and after that we might be limited to 30 minutes.
In this broad discussion we would not be dealing specifically with the resolutions but with the general situation. I presume that would last throughout this evening and that there would be an opportunity to carry on the discussion and reply as time goes on. Then, when members of the committee have concluded the general discussion I will deal with the specific resolutions before us, at which time we should be limited as to the rules of relevancy and the time limit.
All we are proposing to do at this time, and all we are doing, is using this motion as a method of bringing before the committee the resolutions which were brought forward by my colleague last spring in his budget presentation. These resolutions were debated, though the debate was not one of great length, and they have been placed on record in the Journals of the house. They are identical with those brought forward last April by my colleague, the then minister of finance.
They are designed to encourage economic growth, to provide incentives for further industrial expansion, to increase employment and to provide relief for individual taxpayers. I am bringing them forward at this time as an important piece of unfinished business. Their consideration and enactment has become more urgent with the passage of time. The urgency is real, because within the next several weeks, for example, many corporate taxpayers will be in a position to begin to claim benefits accruing from these measures. These companies will not be sure where they stand until parliament has taken action. For individuals, the taxation year ends on December 31; but individuals will be unable to claim the benefits of the proposed increases in allowances for dependents until the law is amended in this respect. Sales taxes and customs duties are being collected on the basis of the resolutions introduced on April 10. It is important that the necessary amendments be made of the statutes concerned.
As stated in the speech from the throne, I shall be bringing forward a comprehensive budget with new measures to meet our longer-term problems and it is my expectation to do this early in 1963. My present proposal is nothing more than the implementation of

the resolutions introduced by my predecessor last April. I respectfully suggest that a general examination of the pattern of these proposals be recognized as appropriate on this occasion. Furthermore, fiscal proposals affecting taxation pertain to the balance of ways and means. To enable them to consider proposals of this kind, hon. members have every right to expect an up to date review of the economic situation and a comprehensive statement of the government's financial position. That is what I propose to make now.


Gordon Campbell Chown: Order. I am sorry to interrupt the minister, but this is the point at which we seem to be moving away from the ambit of section (2) of standing order 59. Perhaps I should obtain unanimous consent of the committee before the hon. gentleman carries on. Is it agreed that he should be allowed to be at variance with the rules as to relevancy in section (2) of standing order 59?


Mr. Leboe:: I think it should apply to all members.


Gordon Campbell Chown: Unanimous consent is given on condition that it will apply equally to the leaders of all other parties in the house.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Gordon Campbell Chown: In addition, it is agreed that those other leaders of the house shall be permitted an extension of time, as will the minister, to permit them to complete their remarks on this resolution, in a general way.


Lester Bowles Pearson: You are suggesting then, in fact, that this be conducted as though it were a budget debate.


Bert Raymond Leboe: I think it should be clear that the members, while limited to 30 minutes, will have the same latitude as the minister and the Leader of the Opposition.


George Clyde Nowlan: That is understood, of course.


Gordon Campbell Chown: I will put that on the record, if I may. I made the conditions clear as to time with respect to the leaders and as to the application of subsection (2) of section 59. I will now make it even more clear that the variance as to the rule of relevancy will apply to all hon. members of the committee in the course of this debate. Is that agreed?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: May I just raise one point. You mentioned that this extension of time would apply to all leaders. Would that mean the first spokesman for each party, whether he be the leader or not?


Gordon Campbell Chown: The hon. member for Kootenay West suggests that it should apply to the first spokesman for each party. Is that agreed?
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Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


George Clyde Nowlan: Mr. Chairman, I should like in the five minutes left to me at this hour to give a picture of the Canadian economy and the economic development of our country as the government sees it at the present time. The Canadian economy has been expanding. Employment has been increasing and unemployment is decreasing. Our exchange position, Mr. Chairman, is improving and prices have remained relatively stable. The present performance of the economy is impressive by many standards. In the second quarter of this year our gross national product was at an annual rate of about $39.5 billion, almost $4 billion higher than in the initial quarter of 1961. Between these two periods real nonfarm output rose by 8 per cent to a level 7 per cent above the previous peak. I emphasize "previous peak". It is not last year, but 7 per cent above the peak of the past. Even more impressive has been the gains achieved in industrial production. In the three months ending July 1962, the volume of industrial production had increased from 12 per cent to a level 9 per cent above the previous peak. The improvement in manufacturing for the past year and a half has been particularly encouraging. The available figures for July show that manufacturing output had risen by 13 per cent while that of durable manufactures was up by 18 per cent. The gains in production in our country have meant increases in jobs and reduction in unemployment. In the first nine months of this year there were on average nearly 200,000 more Canadians at work than in the same period in 1961. The rate of unemployment seasonally adjusted has been declining for the past year and a half and is currently 5.6 per cent of the labour force, compared with 7.7 per cent as at the beginning of 1961.
These gains in employment have been accompanied by higher income. Between the first quarter of 1961 and the second quarter of 1962 incomes from wages and salaries are up 9 per cent and personal disposable income by 11 per cent. The level of business profits has also been responsive to the gains in economic activity, the second quarter of 1962 being about 30 per cent over the first quarter of 1961. Consumer spending and services have risen by 7 per cent. Automobile sales are establishing a record this year. To the end of August 360,000 passenger cars had already been sold, 50,000 more than in the same months of 1961. Business has been increasing its investment in plant, equipment and machinery to meet the demands for expanding markets and for new products. In the first half of this year business investment was running 6 per cent above 1961. Undoubtedly

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the improvement in profits, rising capital cost allowances and certain government incentives have all played a part in bringing about this increase. High levels of income have made possible an increase in personal savings. In the first half of this year personal savings at an annual rate of $1.9 billion are nearly 50 per cent higher than they were one year ago.
Canadian exports have increased strongly over the past few years considerably faster than imports. As a result, Canada achieved a trade surplus of $173 million in 1961, her first surplus of any significance since 1952. In 1962 so far, Mr. Chairman, our exports have continued to increase. In the first eight months of this year, exports rose by 11 per cent over the same period last year. These increases in exports have meant more production, more income and more jobs on our farms, in our mines and in our factories, all of which can be attributed to the general improvement in the economy.
Turning to imports, developments over the past few years have also been encouraging. In the current year, the month to month movements have been obscured by the effects of transport strikes and by imports of noncommercial military aircraft, as well as by the changes in the exchange rate. The effects of the most recent movement and stabilization of the exchange rate and of the temporary import surcharges are not yet visible in the published statistics. Over a longer period the picture becomes clearer. In the past few years the percentage of imports of goods to total domestic production has been declining. In 1956 the ratio was 18.2 per cent; in 1961 it had fallen to 15.5 per cent. In other words, domestic Canadian production has been increasing faster than has imports.
The monetary and financial policies accompanying, and indeed underlying, this sound growth of the Canadian economy have been designed to facilitate the flow of capital from Canadian savers to Canadian investors at reasonable rates of interest.


Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question here?


George Clyde Nowlan: When I have finished. The hon. member will have lots of time to ask questions over the next few days while we are carrying on this discussion, if necessary.
Over the 12 months ended September 30, 1962 bank loans increased by 20 per cent. Net funds raised by provinces, municipalities and private borrowers from securities markets and the banking system in the same 12 months period was 22 per cent higher than 
in the preceding 12 months. The government's own lending institutions have also played an expanding role in financing Canadian development.
May I call it five o'clock, Mr. Chairman?
Progress reported.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Order. It being five o'clock the house will now proceed to consideration of private members' business as listed on today's order paper, namely, notices of motion.


CANADA ELECTIONS ACT
Mr. Eric Stefanson (Selkirk) moved:: That the government should consider the expediency of amending the Canada Elections Act to provide for the establishment of a permanent list of electors, with biannual revisions thereof, as now exists for instance in the United Kingdom and in Australia, in lieu of the present method of preparing and revising lists of electors at each general election, so as to permit shortening the period of time between the issue of the writs of elections and the date the said writs are made returnable.
He said: Mr. Speaker, this being the first time I rise to take part in a debate in this first session of the twenty fifth parliament, I should like to offer my sincere congratulations to you on your appointment to the position of Deputy Speaker. I also want to extend my congratulations to Mr. Speaker and to the deputy chairman of committees. I know that to date you, as Deputy Speaker, have discharged your duties with dignity and fairness, and I hope you will remain in this office for a considerable time.
In introducing this motion, Mr. Speaker, may I say that I feel it would be desirable to amend the Canada Elections Act to provide for the establishment of a permanent list of electors with biannual revisions thereof. I have a situation in my own constituency whereby under the existing elections act many people, depending on when an election is held, are disfranchised. We had such a situation during the last election where several hundred fishermen had gone to their fishing grounds and, not being at the poll where they were registered they lost their votes. I feel that a situation exists which it is desirable to correct.
I am aware of the fact that the elections act was amended in 1960 and that at that time it received a thorough scrutiny by the standing committee on privileges and elections. At that time the committee dealt with absentee voting and felt that it was not desirable at that time to include this in amendments to the act. I personally feel that

the elections act should receive constant review and scrutiny and that the ultimate aim should be to provide every Canadian with the franchise. I also realize that the elections act has to be written in such form that it is practically foolproof and so that abuses of the act will be at a minimum.
Having expressed my views on the need of constant review and scrutiny of the elections act, I wish to point out to the house a situation that exists in my own constituency. I am referring to the fishermen on lake Winnipeg being disfranchised. In 1958, when the election was held on March 31, the fishermen were able to vote because at that time of year there are no fishing operations going on in Manitoba and therefore the fishermen were at their respective homes. The situation in 1962, with the election being held on June 18, was entirely different. The fishermen were then out on their fishing grounds on lake Winnipeg and consequently were unable to vote.
I am sure that other members have constituencies with similar though not identical situations and perhaps not on as large a scale as exists in the Selkirk constituency. Several hundred men there are engaged in fishing and they were disfranchised. Yet at the time of the election they were in their own constituency, as all of lake Winnipeg is within the boundaries of the Selkirk constituency. These men are vitally interested in public affairs and were distressed about not being able to vote.
At the time of the last election I checked the elections act thoroughly and consulted with the chief electoral officer to see if there was any way in which these men could be accommodated. However, under the present elections act there is no provision to look after this type of situation. I was asked why they could not vote at the advance poll. The situation is this. The summer fishing season on lake Winnipeg starts on June 1 and ends early in August. The fishermen generally leave home about one week before the season opens or around May 24. The advance polls were open on Saturday, June 9 and Monday, June 11.
The amendments to the elections act in 1960 provide for more advance polls so that now anyone who will be away on election day can vote at an advance poll. This was a forward step. Each advance poll is set up to accommodate a certain area and only those on the voters lists for the polls in that area can vote at the advance poll. This means that the fishermen would have had to come back to their homes to be able to vote at the advance poll. They could neither vote at the advance poll nor at a regular poll in the vicinity of their fishing grounds.
Canada Elections Act
I was also asked why the advance polls were not held earlier. The answer to that is that the official nomination day is two weeks before election day, and in this case it was on Monday, June 4. Then there has to be time given to print the ballots and distribute them to the deputy returning officers for the advance polls. Therefore the dates of Saturday, June 9 and Monday, June 11 were the earliest dates that the advance poll could be held. My understanding is that the only way to assure the fishermen of their franchise is to set up a permanent voters list and use absentee voting. I understand that the province of Manitoba has amended its voting regulations so that the fishermen can vote by mail.
So far, Mr. Speaker, I have only mentioned one category of people who have been disfranchised but no doubt there are many others. Another large group no doubt would be construction workers. These workers would be scattered all over the country. By setting up a permanent list and using absentee voting a person would be able to vote for a candidate back in his or her home riding regardless of where he or she might be working. I feel it is desirable to achieve this. An absentee form of voting has been established for service personnel and I believe that this privilege could be and should be extended to all Canadians.
Permanent voters lists have been established in Great Britain, Australia and many states of the United States. As far as I know they are working with a reasonable degree of success. My understanding is that absentee voting was used in the federal election of 1935. I also understand that at that time it did not meet with too much success. However,
I am inclined to believe that the failure was not due to the system but rather to the application of it. My experience has been that in most cases when new legislation is introduced unforeseen things develop which generally require ironing out. No second chance was given to this system when it was tried out in 1935.
I want to refer very briefly to the minutes of proceedings and evidence of the standing committee on privileges and elections when they met in April, 1960. Mr. Castonguay, the chief electoral officer, appeared as a witness before that committee. First of all, I wish to read what the vice chairman said, as found on page 41:
Now we come to the main item tor discussion at this meeting, which was considered by the meeting of the subcommittee on agenda and procedure. The subcommittee recommends that the matter of permanent lists and absentee voting be the first topic for consideration by the committee.

Canada Elections Act
Then he outlines the reason.
We thought that instead of going right ahead and proceeding to the study of the electoral law, item by item and section by section, it would be preferable to deal with the most important matter first and to dispose of it, as it affects one third of the law, as I said. Then, when we have discussed and decided that aspect, we can come back and study the items individually and section by section, so as to permit a flow of permanent, constructive ideas, not entangled in questions of absentee voting, electoral lists, and such. This is why we thought it would be best for this committee to proceed with the permanent lists and absentee voting first, and then we would go back to the law and study it section by section.
You can see by these remarks by the vice chairman of the committee that the committee placed this matter very high on the agenda and considered it to be of very great importance. I wish to quote some parts of Mr. Castonguay's statement with respect to absentee voting. As found on page 42, he said:
Mr. Chairman, the question of absentee voting and permanent lists has been studied by committees of the House of Commons for at least 30 years, at various times; and on one occasion the system of permanent lists and absentee voting was adopted, for the federal elections in 1934.
That is the election in 1935 to which I referred.
In 1934 the absentee voting provisions related to miners, fishermen and lumbermen. They had absentee voting privileges if they were absent not less than 25 miles from their own home polling division, and were within the province in which they were living. The system of permanent lists was used for the first time at the 1935 election.
The standing committee on privileges and elections met from 1936 to 1938. They reviewed what had happened in 1935 and decided to discontinue the use of permanent lists. I feel that a fair trial was not made at that time in that the system was only tried once and was not given a second chance. Mr. Castonguay went on to say:
The failure of the system, in my opinion, is attributable to the fact that they adopted permanent lists without the working parts of permanent lists. There was a general enumeration of all the electors in Canada in October, 1934. Then the Franchise Act provided for an annual revision, which was held in June, 1935. The election was held in October, 1935.
With a permanent list, in order to vote an elector's name must be on the list; and with that very system, in 1935, the only time an elector could get on or off that list was during a three week period in June, 1935. After that period was over there was no way of getting on or off the list.
The burden of keeping the list up to date fell chiefly upon the political organizations and the candidates during that period of revision in June, 1935. The revision was not done on a house to house canvass basis.
The onus was upon the elector to go to the registrar and notify him that he had arrived in the district and wanted to be on the list. The onus was pretty well on the political parties to have names removed of electors who had left the electoral district or who had died. Generally speaking, I think everyone was in agreement that

that list was rather obsolete in 1935-so much so that legislation was passed to scrap the list, and not even use it as a basis for by-elections after 1935.
In my opinion, permanent lists, in order to be effective, must have a biannual house to house revision by enumerators. This opinion is arrived at from a study of permanent lists in the commonwealth countries of Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and the British Isles. In these countries they have a house to house revision. It is at least a biannual revision on a house to house basis.
An interesting point is that in Australia, where you have compulsory registration and compulsory voting, they still have a biannual revision on a house to house basis. They find it is essential.
Now, I realize that it will be a costly process to establish a permanent list which would prove to be satisfactory and which would guarantee improvement over our present system. If it does not prove feasible to establish absentee voting on a nation-wide basis, then I think consideration should be given to establishing it on a provincial basis, or at least within an electoral district. By establishing this on a provincial basis, it would take care of the majority of voters and on an electoral basis would also take care of a considerable number of electors, including most of the fishermen in the constituency of Selkirk. The ultimate aim should be to see that every Canadian is able to exercise his franchise.
The setting up of a permanent list would also permit the shortening of the period of time between the issue of the writs of election and the date the said writs are made returnable. With the vast improvements in communication and transportation in the past 20 years, I feel that it is feasible and desirable to shorten the duration of election campaigns.
I am sure that there are many other members who would like to speak on this resolution, so I will conclude my remarks by saying that I hope that members from all sides of the house will give serious consideration to the proposals in this resolution and I hope they see fit to support them.


Robert Norman Thompson: I want to keep my remarks in regard to this resolution very brief. As I read the subject matter I asked myself, and then I inquired further afield, if perchance any of the resolutions that are brought up by private members ever pass. I was informed, no, they never pass.


Some hon. Members:: Yes.


Robert Norman Thompson: If they do, then I am very happy to be corrected because I think this is a worth-while matter for our consideration. One of the things with which we must be concerned as we watch and take part in the operation of the democratic process, is the improvement of that democratic process to see that it fulfills its intended objective

efficiently. In this regard, I feel this motion has much worth in it because it concerns something that has been already brought into the democratic process in other countries. It would be one way to very definitely assist people in taking part in voting.
Furthermore, I believe this is a means by which we can shorten the campaign period. I believe it was the unanimous opinion of members of different parties who took part in the last election campaign that an election campaign of nearly two months duration is too long. By taking a permanent voters list and by keeping it up to date, we could cut in half the time allotted to election campaigns. In the days when we did not have aeroplanes and when we had to travel by trains or even by horse drawn vehicles, perhaps an election campaign of 58 or 59 days was necessary. However, in this day and age when you can move across the country in a matter of hours, it is high time we streamlined our election procedures, as we are speaking of them here.
There are those who oppose this measure on the grounds of expense. I have done a certain amount of research on this subject because it is something of which I have been very conscious for the last several years. It has been estimated that, roughly speaking, it would cost about $5 million a year. This is a large amount of money; but when you understand that it would assist municipal governments as well as provincial governments in their elections, you find that the cost would be spread over all levels of elected governments, and realize that this cost is not great at all.
I trust that this is an example of a motion that deserves our conscientious consideration and that each one of us who is concerned with streamlining our electoral procedures and making elections more efficient, will consider it favourably.


Mr. Frank Howard (Skeena):: We naturally support the idea put forward in the resolution, particularly in view of the fact that it is necessary to have a permanent voters list in order to have a system of absentee balloting. Unlike the sponsor of the motion, my attitude towards the motion is bound up exclusively in the question of absentee balloting. While I am sure we are all interested in a motion which would have the effect of shortening the period of time between the issuance of the writs and polling day, I think that is perhaps a secondary consideration. Our attitude should be directed towards providing people with full opportunity to cast their ballots on election day. It is for that reason we in this party wholeheartedly support the concept advanced by the hon. member.
27507-3-51J
Canada Elections Act
In my own province, we have a system of absentee balloting and have had for many years. We have a large number of people who are able to cast their ballots because of the fairness of that law. Fishing is a very important part of the economy of British Columbia. In provincial elections, fishermen can vote by absentee ballot, but they cannot vote in federal elections because in that field there is no such system. Loggers, construction workers, travellers, transportation workers and even lawyers away on cases have lost their right to vote in federal elections because there has been no absentee system.
In 1957, when I was first elected to this house, I prepared and introduced a bill to amend the elections act to provide for a system of absentee balloting. This bill was worded with a view to the limitations imposed upon me and every private member in connection with the spending of public funds. The principle behind it was to establish a system of absentee balloting.
Again in 1958 I introduced the same bill and hon. members will find on the order paper this session a similar bill, amended to take into account the elections act amendments of 1960. It is a bill to provide for absentee balloting, and will come up for consideration later this session, should the session last that long.
This is an indication of the attitude of the party to which I belong. It is a consistent attitude with respect to providing the right to vote to people who might be denied it by reasons of location or other factors.
I was very interested in the references made by the hon. member who sponsored the motion in the standing committee on privileges and elections. When it met in 1960 and considered the elections act and reported various amendments back to the house, I was the only member on it from my party and I was the lone, single, solitary voice on that committee advocating a system of absentee balloting. If reference is made to the record of its proceedings on April 7, it will be found that I was a minority of one voting in favour of a system of absentee balloting. I hope the house will accord speedy passage to the motion now before it so that it may be referred for study to that committee.
At a very rough estimate there were approximately 200,000 people in Canada of the age to vote but who could not vote in the last election because they were away from the polling divisions in their own constituencies. In recent days this question has been discussed in the United States and a Mr. Brendan Byrne, who is either a secretary or holds some other high office in the American heritage

Canada Elections Act
foundation, has estimated that in the 1960 presidential election in the United States there were 8 million people who were classified as mobile adults unable to meet state, county or precinct residence requirements and so were unable to vote. He has said that a system of absentee balloting could take care of that problem.
He has also estimated that there were 5 million people in the United States who were kept away from the polls by reason of being in hospitals, nursing homes and the like, while an absentee system would have provided them with the opportunity to vote. He further estimated that there were some 2,600,000 adults travelling for business, health, vacation or other reasons who were unable to obtain absentee ballots.
We have a similar problem in Canada and we must concern ourselves with it. There is the inalienable right of a person of proper age, who meets all the qualifications, to cast a ballot in a federal election, and of secondary concern to that are the expenditures and costs of providing an absentee balloting system. We should always keep in mind in enacting legislation that we should provide those citizens with every possible opportunity to cast their ballots on election day, regardless of where they may be. They should not have hurdles, barriers, prohibitions and restrictions put in their way. The elections act, as it is now worded, does not provide a system of absentee balloting and therefore it presents hurdles, prohibitions and barriers to approximately 200,000 people in Canada. This should not be a part of our democratic structure, and I repeat that I hope the motion before us will be given speedy passage and that later on we can proceed to enact legislation with provision in it for absentee balloting.


Frank Charles McGee: I am most grateful for the opportunity to speak on this motion and I should like to congratulate the hon. member who moved it so early in the session when our memories are fresh with recollections of our recent experience.
I would agree with the hon. member for Red Deer (Mr. Thompson), that there is an unanimous or near unanimous view, held not only by members of political parties but also by members of the public, that a shorter election campaign is desirable. I would also agree with the hon. member for Selkirk (Mr. Stefanson) and the hon. member for Skeena (Mr. Howard) in their justifiable and proper concern with the problem of fishermen and other special categories of people who have a particular problem in registering their votes. However I think they may be mistaken in

thinking that this resolution provides the full solution to it, and I suggest that perhaps a permanent voters list is not the best way to go about solving the various components of the problem as they were outlined today. I have an alternate proposal to make and it is aimed directly at achieving the result which the motion seeks:
-so as to permit shortening the period of time between the issue of the writ of elections and the date the said writs are made returnable.
When the question of this permanent voters list was before the committee on privileges and elections, of which I was a member, so far as my recollection goes the decision not to proceed with a permanent voters list was a unanimous decision. I may be subject to correction on that, but before proceeding any further there is one other observation I should like to make concerning the special problems of special groups in the electorate. It has to do with the service vote. The service vote problem, which was given such wide attention in recent times, would not be solved by a permanent voters list.
In answer to another point raised by the hon. member for Red Deer when he was discussing the cost and when he suggested that other voters lists could be drawn from the same source, while that might appear to be the case at first glance, there would still be required a certain amount of processing because, as the hon. gentleman knows, there are different qualifications for different types of elections, federal, provincial and municipal qualifications, and there would be much activity related to finding the particular qualified people within a community with the right to vote in a particular election. While I can see his point in justifying the expense involved I do not believe such a list would provide a complete voters list for every electoral environment in the country.
The statement of the chief electoral officer to the committee, about which reference was made by the hon. member for Selkirk, was to the effect that the initial cost of establishing this voters list would be between $6 million and $7 million, and he suggested that it should be revised at least twice a year. I cannot recall whether it was during the committee proceedings, or as a result of private conversation afterwards, but I gained the very definite impression that in his judgment a revision four times a year would be the desirable arrangement.
I would be inclined to agree with him and other authorities from other jurisdictions who have expressed opinions on this, because of the problem which exists in the constituency of York-Scarborough where there was an increase of some 40,000 voters between 1958

and 1962. Forty thousand over a four-year period means 10,000 a year. If the list was revised twice a year, this would mean there would be 5,000 new voters going on the list at the time of revision; so that at any given six months period there would be an additional 5,000 people who presumably, theoretically, could be missed completely, to say nothing of the many thousands who move from one part of the vast area of metropolitan Toronto to another, or in and out of the constituency. I assume there would be the possibility that 7,000 people would be missed in York-Scarborough, or could be left off the voters list even if this permanent list were in effect. Perhaps that is, again, being too personal in connection with my own experience.
But if we wish to have two things guaranteed, as the hon. member for Skeena very rightly pointed out, if we want to guarantee the maximum opportunity on the part of voters to register their vote in our democratic society, then we have to address ourselves to the specific problems of dealing with specific groups, those people in hospitals and travelling salesmen. In 1960 we made quite an improvement to the act by extending the advanced poll opportunities to increased categories of people, but we did not come to grips with these other problems to which reference has been made.
However, I think we can resolve that in one way, by moving the advanced poll opportunity further away from polling day. There have been many cases in my own constituency when people were leaving the constituency for one reason or another, and the fact that it happened to be the Saturday before did not materially alter their opportunity to vote, because the trip they were taking was of such a length as to encompass both those dates. I think this is particularly true of people involved in such activities as fishing and activities which take them away for a certain period of time.
My proposal in the alternative, in order to provide the maximum opportunity to the maximum number of persons on the voters list, the maximum scrutiny of the authenticity of the people on this list, is to come at the problem from another direction; that is, to attempt to set down ground rules in an act in this parliament which would in effect have the active, public participating part of the campaign designated as being the last four weeks of the campaign.
When this suggestion was first put forward after the election, the Globe and Mail, in a very generous editorial, suggested that I was in fact suggesting bootleg politics. If this suggestion had been made when the house
Canada Elections Act
was in session there might have been a question of privilege here. However, part of the editorial reads:
-Mr. Frank McGee . . . will have public support for his proposal to shorten future campaigns. Mr. McGee is being impracticable, however, when he suggests that this can be achieved by a private bill-
The writer goes on to say:
This newspaper is sorry to doubt that there is any conceivable law that could compel a politician to keep his mouth shut for four weeks at any time, and certainly not in the period prior to an election.
I thought this was a rather whimsical view. But I do believe it is possible for the members of this parliament or some future parliament to lay down a set of ground rules similar in purpose, intent and operation to the ground rules that apply at the present time to the last period of the campaign. We certainly could have as a component of that bill an undertaking that no public advertising from a political party or a candidate would be allowed in the newspapers, on the radio or other public media. We could designate in that act that the post office would not accept mailing material or literature for distribution until four weeks before the beginning of the campaign.
I acknowledge at once that in this act one would have to permit parties to hold nominating conventions and to have meetings in various parts of the country. But this is very different from what I think we all understand as being a full-fledged election campaign with public meetings, public advertising, public rallies and the other accompanying factors. In other words, I think we as members of parliament have the ability to agree upon a frame of reference or a set of conditions which would in fact designate that the election campaign would begin at such and such a date and that any other public activity should not be engaged in prior to that period. I am not suggesting that politicians suddenly become dumb, in one sense of that word, during the first four weeks, as is suggested in this editorial; but I do believe a measure could be worked out which would in fact guarantee maximum participation, a thorough enumeration and a thorough revision of that enumeration; that we could add to the act special legislation to enable special cases, such as fishermen, service people and others to vote within that period. The service vote particularly poses the kind of problem that requires this longer period within which the election material could be brought forward in a way which would satisfy the specific complaints raised by hon. members who contributed to this debate.
In summary, Mr. Speaker, I would agree with the position taken during the committee regarding the price we would pay for

Canada Elections Act
this permanent list. That price is $20 million. The initial cost is $7 million, the running cost is $5 million a year, and assuming, as one has to in these things, an election every four years, we are adding a $20 million fixed cost which I suggest will not achieve all the objectives set out for it by those who support such a list. I suggest a counter proposal to save individuals and the public at large from this sustained activity and expense.
Mr. Speaker, I might just say a further word or two before I sit down. I think the campaign period reduced along the lines and subject to the conditions I have suggested might do something really effective in the area of reducing the cost of elections, the solution to which seems to have escaped not only this jurisdiction but jurisdictions in all parts of the world.


Robert Norman Thompson: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the hon. member a question?


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member for Red Deer may put a question if the hon. member will accept it.


Frank Charles McGee: Certainly.


Robert Norman Thompson: 
Frank Charles McGee: Mr. Speaker, I have been drawing my information as to cost from the testimony of the chief electoral officer given before the privileges and elections committee in 1960. The cost given with regard to the jurisdiction in the United States, which is perhaps more easily comparable to our conditions, Great Britain being a much more compact community, has been estimated at $1 a name, so the estimate of $5 million a year for a review twice a year comes from the testimony of the chief electoral officer, supported by other electoral officers in other jurisdictions in North America.


Robert Norman Thompson: Mr. Speaker, I was referring specifically to Great Britain. Could I ask a further question of the hon. member for Selkirk, who moved this motion? Does the hon. member have any information at his command which he might give to the committee in regard to this point raised by the hon. member for York-Scarborough?


Eric Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, I have the same information as the hon. member for York-Scarborough, which was given to the committee by the chief electoral officer. I think it is an annual expense-


Mr. Aiken:: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, if I may, I think the house should be sure that the hon. member is not closing the debate in answering this question.


Mr. Speaker:: Not at all. Has the hon. member finished? The hon. member for Brantford (Mr. Brown).


Gordon Harvey Aiken: While Your Honour's attention was diverted the hon. member for Red Deer asked a question of the mover of the motion, who was proceeding to answer it.


Mr. Speaker:: That slipped my mind while I was discussing another subject. The hon. member for Red Deer did not have the right to question the hon. member for Selkirk at that moment, because the hon. member for Selkirk having resumed his seat, and someone else having intervened, he no longer had the right to speak. In that situation the hon. member for York-Scarborough only could speak, since there was time left to him.
I will now recognize the hon. member for Brantford (Mr. Brown).


Mr. J. E. Brown (Brantford):: Mr. Speaker, as this is the first occasion upon which I have addressed this house in this parliament, I should like to offer my sincere congratulations to Your Honour upon your selection as Speaker. I hope and know that your presiding over our debates is welcomed by this house as a whole.
I am interested in the resolution which has been moved by the hon. member for Selkirk, and I was much impressed by the contribution made by the hon. member for Red Deer. Unfortunately, since I was away from the chamber, I heard only part of the remarks made by the hon. member for Skeena and the hon. member for York-Scarborough. This is a subject which is of great importance to this parliament and to the country generally. I am very much in favour of the resolution. I, myself, feel that the most important result would be a lessening of election expenses, which was the chief point raised by the hon. member for Red Deer. I believe the cost of elections in Canada has become excessive and that the situation should receive the attention of this house. This is one occasion upon which that attention can be given. It is chiefly for this reason that I support the resolution. I believe there are occasions when private bills brought before the house by private members can play an important part in the life of Canada. The hon. member is to be commended for bringing forward his resolution at this time.

I, myself, felt reticent about speaking on the subject and I therefore had in mind listening at some length to various opinions by other hon. members with regard to the resolution before I made a contribution to the debate. At first I had in mind proposing that the resolution be amended so as to refer it to the standing committee on privileges and elections. Then I thought such a course might be disappointing to the hon. member in whose name this motion appears, because it might result in a considerable delay. But I was anxious that the subject should receive a thorough study. It seemed to me that on the face of it there was no compelling reason why the house should not pass the resolution. On the other hand, there might be aspects of the question which should receive our consideration. However, after thinking the matter over I decided I would not move the amendment but would support the resolution in the hope that it will receive the general support of the house.
The other principal matter which has been raised concerned provisions for the assistance of absentee voters and of voters in general who are called out of their constituencies and cannot vote on election day. The arguments in this respect did not impress me as much as the likelihood of lessening the expenses of elections. I had just entered the house when the hon. member for York-Scarborough was on his feet, and I did not entirely grasp his argument in this respect, but it seems to me that the money which it would cost this country to provide a permanent list of electors, with biannual revision, would be easily oifset by a reduction in the cost of elections generally. Thus, I believe this resolution should receive the support of all hon. members.
I really have nothing further to bring forward at this time because I confess I have not given this question all the study which I should, but I do wish to put my views on record. I believe the resolution should carry and I am much indebted to hon. members who have already spoken for the views they have presented.
(Translation):


Mr. Guy Marcoux (Quebec-Monimorency):: Mr. Speaker, I shall be brief, because I only wish to make a few remarks in connection with what the member for Skeena (Mr. Howard) said.
The hon. member seems to explain the political discomfiture of the socialists by the fact that there is no absentee voting provision. I think that he could look elsewhere for the reasons why the electors, even when they are at home, do not want to cast their votes because they think perhaps that the New Democratic party is not the one that
Canada Elections Act
can solve the problems which face the citizens, more particularly those of Saskatchewan.
It could even be said that those who are in their districts on election day do not avail themselves of their right to vote exactly for the reasons I just mentioned. Therefore, those who think that the socialist candidates will have a chance to be elected if there is an absentee voting provision are slightly mistaken.
(Text):


Robert Norman Thompson: Very absent minded. (Translation):


Guy Marcoux: On the other hand, there are some voters who are actually present in their riding, but who are not listed on the voting lists. I noticed such a situation in several instances in my own constituency where those voters were prevented from exercising their franchise. I feel that this is more undemocratic than the situation in regard to absentees, and that is why I suggested in my report to the chief electoral officer that the sections of the Canada Elections Act dealing with rural voters be also made to apply to city voters, provided they could be readily identified. This would mean that in both the urban and rural areas, the individual whose name does not appear on the voting list could still cast his ballot, provided he is adequately identified by another voter listed with the same polling station.
Mr. Speaker, I would even go so far as to say such a voter could be identified by means of an electoral identification card. And I am convinced that a permanent list of voters would soon become useless. Furthermore, the large amounts which, in the opinion of the various members of the house, would have to be spent for the maintenance of such a permanent list, could be saved, and possibly distributed to farmers in the constituency of Bellechasse, who do not receive a sufficient income from the operation of their farms.
Mr. Speaker, as regards absent voters, there is no doubt that some might be away for long periods of time. I can see that there may be inherent difficulties in the elections act, because we know that perfection is not to be found on earth, and not in electoral matters any more than in any other matter, including medicine.
On the other hand, there are advanced polls-and especially since the latest amendments to the Canada Elections Act-which allow electors who have sufficient reasons not to be in their constituency on polling days, to exercise their franchise by presenting themselves to those polls on the days preceding the election date.

Canada Elections Act
Besides, I think it will always be difficult to make people vote, and that for various reasons. For instance, there are those who voluntarily abstain from voting, those who are absent and who do not want to vote in advance polls, as well as those who are present but whose names are not on the voting list.
Mr. Speaker, although my leader has expressed the view that the suggestion made by the hon. member for Selkirk (Mr. Stefanson) should be accepted, I think there are several other decisions to be taken with regard to the Canada Elections Act before accepting the hon. member's motion, which has much merit just the same, especially that of coming from the right side of the house.
However, as independent members, I think we are entitled to express our opinions about the various improvements which should be brought to the act, in co-operation with the chief electoral officer. Furthermore, I share the view of the hon. member sitting on your left who stated a moment ago that this motion should be referred to the committee on privileges and elections. Perhaps that would be the most logical solution.
(Text):


Mr. T. S. Barneii (Comox-Alberni):: Mr. Speaker, in taking a few moments to participate in this debate, I am not going to allow myself to be drawn into the discussion as to why some people vote and some do not. I think that could lead us into the sort of partisan discussion which should be avoided when we are considering amending the Canada Elections Act. I must say that I should like, while I have this opportunity, to say that I am not one of those members who agree that the present time allowed for election campaigning is too long. The hon. member for Red Deer and the hon. member for York-Scarborough both mentioned this in their discussion of the resolution. I must say that I find that in a constituency like Comox-Alberni the present time allowed after an election is called is hardly long enough for a candidate to present himself physically before the electors in the various communities of his constituency. While we hear talk about a lot of money being spent on elections, I think that that is a question which lies in the hands of the various political organizations of this country; and in so far as one is thinking of a national campaign, it also lies in the electioneering strategy that the various political parties decide to adopt.
[Mr. Marcoux.J
I would come back to what was said earlier by the hon. member for Skeena in respect to the need for our drafting an elections act which will as far as practicable allow every Canadian citizen to have a vote in a federal election. This was a matter of some considerable concern to me when I sat previously in this house, and I have the sort of interest in it which has been carried forward by the hon. member for Skeena, with particular reference to allowing absentee voting. It may be true that in Quebec-Montmorency and other parts of Canada people are still living in the places where their grandfathers lived. But that is not the situation in a province like British Columbia. A great many people of a great many different schools of political thought find themselves, in the course of carrying on their employment, moving from one constituency to another, even between the time the enumeration takes place and polling day. Not only hundreds of fishermen, as was suggested by the proposer of this resolution, but actually many thousands of people, through the necessity of earning their livelihood, have to go into different places in that interval. To my way of thinking the only reasonable way of dealing with this question is the provision of an absentee voting system.
I am not convinced in my own mind-here I may have to have some private discussion with my hon. friend from Skeena-that the solution to this problem is to be found in the creation of a permanent voters list. In our provincial elections act in British Columbia, we have had for many years now provision for a permanent voters list and an absentee voting system, and the permanent voters list as it is operated in British Columbia has created a lot of problems and has been the result of a lot of people being disfranchised on election day. My own opinion up to now has been that if we could have a system of enumeration and the development of a voters list such as we have in the present federal act, and combine it with a absentee voting provision such as we have had in British Columbia, we would approach somewhere near the situation of enabling every qualified citizen to vote.


Gordon Harvey Aiken: Mr. Speaker, I must first express my apologies to the hon. member for Red Deer for preventing him from getting an answer to his question, but I feared at the time that if the mover of this motion were to be dealt with as having spoken, then I would not have any chance to make the remarks I wanted to make myself-although it does not look as if I will have much time anyway.

One thing I should like to mention in the minute which remains before six o'clock is this. In 1960 the standing committee on privileges and elections considered the very subject we are now discussing, and at that time it was felt that the first step in enlarging the election-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The time for private members' business having now expired, we
will revert to the business that was interrupted at five o'clock.



[Stage Direction]
The house in committee of ways and means, Mr. Paul in the chair.
["Without any doubt, Mr. Speaker, Canadians everywhere this evening in Canada, as well as hon. members of the house, will be very seriously concerned with the full implications of President Kennedy's statement made on television just a little while ago.\nThe members of this group are interested to know if the Canadian government was consulted or informed before this momentous statement was made and this policy laid down. However, Mr. Speaker, we were very much relieved to know that the issue is being submitted to the security council of the United Nations and that the organization of American states is also being consulted.\nWe urge upon the government, and particularly the Secretary of State for External Affairs in whom we all have great confidence to utilize to the very limit our friendship for and our association with many nations of the world to the end that the cause of peace will be well served by Canada in the very serious and fateful days ahead.", 'Ways and Means\nMembers of this party extend to the government our sincere and wholehearted cooperation in all it undertakes to advance this cause in which we all believe.']
The Deputy Chairman:: Order. House in committee of ways and means. It being six o'clock I do now leave the chair.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The committee resumed at 8 p.m.
["Order. House in committee of ways and means. It being six o'clock I do now leave the chair.\nAt six o'clock the committee took recess."]
George Clyde Nowlan: Mr. Chairman, I listened to a C.B.C. commentator shortly after six o'clock during the dinner hour and he referred to the American press gallery that is attached to the White House being as nervous as expectant fathers outside the maternity ward in a hospital. I am sure that our press gallery is not quite in that situation, but I am quite convinced that whatever still small voices may be raised here tonight with respect to the economic affairs of Canada will be somewhat dwarfed by the headlines that may appear in the press tomorrow following the statement which has been made by the President of the United States. However, be that as it may, I know it is our responsibility to go ahead with an analysis of the economic situation as we see it in this country at the moment and events of external affairs and foreign affairs can be analysed and dealt with at an appropriate time in this house.
When the committee rose at six o'clock I was dealing with the increase in bank loans and other indices of expanded credit in this country and I should like to proceed from there for the time being. Interest rates declined throughout 1961 up until the middle of 1962. The exchange emergency which developed in June was accompanied, however, by a sharp rise in interest rates. The increase was both a reflection of the emergency and a suitable response to help correct the situation. Since June the improvement in our foreign exchange reserves has been accompanied by declines in interest rates which have become marked in the past few 27507-3-52
Crisis in Cuba
weeks. The Bank of Canada discount rate was reduced in two steps from the June 24 level of 6 per cent to 5 per cent. Yields on government of Canada bonds are now generally less than one quarter of a point higher than they were a year ago.
A great source of satisfaction to all members of the house, I am sure, has been the stability of prices achieved in Canada over the past few years. Relative price stability is one of the cornerstones upon which other economic objectives rest, particularly in the increasingly competitive world environment in which we have to earn our living. I should like the committee to note this, Mr. Chairman, that over the past year the increase in the consumer price index has been a modest 1J per cent, reflecting some upward movement in the cost of services and food and virtually no change in all other categories of goods.


Lester Bowles Pearson: If the hon. gentleman will forgive me, before he proceeds further I wonder whether he would ask for permission to revert to motions, if the house so desires, so that I might ask the Prime Minister if he has a statement to make in respect of the very important development that has occurred this evening in the announcement by the President of the United States. I only do this, Mr. Chairman, after having consulted with the other side of the house.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Chairman, I will move that the committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again later this day.
Progress reported.



Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Speaker, I would ask leave of the house to revert to motions at this stage.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul):: Is it agreed that the house shall revert to motions?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


John George Diefenbaker: Crisis in Cuba
construction of bases for the launching of offensive weapons in the form of I.R.B.M.'s and that this constitutes a threat to most of the cities of North America including our major cities in Canada. The reason that I agreed to the suggestion of the Leader of the Opposition was to ask Canadians as well as free men everywhere in the world not to panic at this time. This is a time for calmness. It is a time for the banishment of those things that sometimes separate us. Above all, it is a time when each of us must endeavour to do his part to assure the preservation of peace not only in this hemisphere but everywhere in the world. The existence of these bases or launching pads Is not defensive but offensive. The determination of Canadians will be that the United Nations should be charged at the earliest possible moment with this serious problem.
The President has stated that the matter will be brought before the security council at once, and whatever the reactions of the U.S.S.R. are to the statements made by President Kennedy, I think what people all over the world want tonight and will want is a full and complete understanding of what is taking place in Cuba. What can be done? Naturally, there has been little time to give consideration to positive action that might be taken. But I suggest that if there is a desire on the part of the U.S.S.R. to have the facts, if a group of nations, perhaps the eight nations comprising the unaligned members of the 18 nation disarmament committee, be given the opportunity of making an on-site inspection in Cuba to ascertain what the facts are, a major step forward would be taken.
This is the only suggestion I have at this moment; but it would provide an objective answer to what is going on in Cuba. As late as a week ago, the U.S.S.R. contended that its activities in Cuba were entirely of a defensive nature, and that the hundreds, if not thousands, of citizens of the U.S.S.R., mechanics, technicians and the like, were simply in Cuba for defensive purposes. As to the presence of these offensive weapons, the only sure way that the world can secure the facts would be through an independent inspection.
I should like to hear the views of the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Pearson) on this, and the leaders of the other parties, for in times like these the divisions between us always diminish. Any suggestion that can be made that will bring about an alleviation or a diminution of the obvious tensions that must grip men and women all over the world tonight, will be helpful. Our duty, as I see it, is not to fan the flames of fear but to do our part to bring about relief from the tensions, the great tensions, of the hour.

Canada has taken a strong stand throughout the years on behalf of peace. Canada knows the meaning of war. Canadians want peace, as do all free men in all parts of the world. My prayer this evening is that those who have the responsibility of statesmanship will always have in mind the need for doing everything that can be done to assure peace.
Hon. L. B. Pearson (Leader of the
Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I think the house will be grateful to the Prime Minister (Mr. Diefenbaker) for providing, as head of the government, an opportunity for a statement and for the statement itself. I am sure that anyone who listened to the president's broadcast must agree with the Prime Minister when he referred to it as a sombre, serious statement. It was only a short time ago that the president was able to reassure the people of his own country, and the people of other countries, that the action taken by the Soviet union in Cuba, while a cause for anxiety, was not to be interpreted at that time as the transformation of Cuba into an offensive base, which would have been a cause for even more anxiety. Therefore, when the President had to announce this evening that he was wrong in that surmise, that he had been misinformed and deceived, and that the information at his disposal now was to the effect that this island so close to the shores of the United States was being turned into an offensive nuclear missile base. That indeed was a shock not only to the citizens of the United States but to Canadians and to the citizens of every free country.
Surely the thing now, Mr. Speaker, is to prevent that shock from resulting in either a feeling of despair and helplessness on the one hand or panic on the other. I think we can take comfort, and the Prime Minister mentioned this, out of the fact that the President of the United States has properly indicated that this matter is going to be brought before the United Nations security council and the organization of American states. I think it is important, as the Prime Minister has indicated, that these international organizations should be used for the purpose of verifying what is going on. If that can be done, it will be a source of reassurance to all people in the world as to the seriousness of the situation and the necessity of doing something about it.
Perhaps it would be possible for Canada to take part in the discussions that will be held before the organization of American states because the president referred to them as western hemisphere discussions. While we are not a member of that organization, this would be a suitable occasion for Canada to participate in this particular meeting, if that can be

done. There will be no question about our participation in any appropriate discussion at the United Nations.
I can only add, Mr. Speaker, that in any steps the government of Canada can take, speaking for Canada, to prevent this situation from deteriorating into the indescribable horror of nuclear war, and in any role it is possible for the government to play, it will get the full support of every member on this side of the house. This, Mr. Speaker, is an occasion where we will be privileged to cooperate with the government in anything it can do, in any fight it can make, for peace and freedom in this crisis.


Robert Norman Thompson: Mr. Speaker, in adding my word, I should like to express my own personal, as well as our group's gratefulness, for the frank statement by the Prime Minister tonight. As we have listened to the remarks of the President of the United States of America, our actions and our carryings on here this afternoon, have been put into insignificance, because certainly we do live in critical times. There is a sense of encouragement in noting the respect in which Canada is held by all freedom loving countries in the world, and that encouragement is confirmed again in the words of the Prime Minister tonight.
We have a moral obligation, not only to our own people but also to our neighbours and friends in this ideological struggle that encompasses the world today, and it is our obligation to make our own stand on these matters clearly understood.
During the last half hour I have been thinking a great deal about a statement which was made a year or two ago by a prime minister of one of the newer nations of the commonwealth. He made these remarks to Prime Minister Macmillan:
Events move so fast today, and on such a global scale that no man is any longer clever enough to calculate the expedient thing to do. Our only hope is to find and do what is right morally. Then events can never overtake us and we will find we have done the only thing which will outpace the immoral ideology of communism.
I believe it is characteristic of Canadians not to panic but thoughtfully and cautiously to watch the developments that are taking place with the definite conviction that it is our responsibility to do what is morally right and to make our actions in that regard known.
The situation about which the President of the United States spoke tonight is one of critical seriousness. We have seen it developing and, while we have not wanted to think it was as serious as it is, I believe the words of the Prime Minister have brought home the urgency of the matter. There may be a tendency to regard some of this as a result of 27507-3-52J
Crisis in Cuba
the political situation in the United States, but I do not think that is the issue that is involved here. Therefore I am sure it will be the wish and desire of everyone in this house to give full support to those entrusted with the responsibility of government in taking that stand which as Canadians we should.
I add to what the leader of the official opposition has said, that it is hopeful, in the face of the grimness of the remarks of the president, that he is willing and has already initiated action both with the United Nations and the organization of American states. I am sure our delegation to the United Nations is already assuming its responsibility in this regard and will be backed up by our thinking and our action here at home.
I hope we shall also be able to make our influence felt in the O.A.S. organization, even though we are not a member of it. This is an appropriate time for us to assure the member countries of this hemisphere that we intend to play our part in this matter. It is not only Cuba that is involved. The Berlin situation is serious. Probably the situation in the Himalayan mountains has been used as a convenient smoke screen for the situation in Cuba. We do not know this, but nevertheless it too represents a very serious situation.
On behalf of those of us in this corner of the house I assure our fellow members of the house as well as the members of the government, the Prime Minister and the Canadian people that we are most concerned and our fullest co-operation can be assured at this critical hour.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Without any doubt, Mr. Speaker, Canadians everywhere this evening in Canada, as well as hon. members of the house, will be very seriously concerned with the full implications of President Kennedy's statement made on television just a little while ago.
The members of this group are interested to know if the Canadian government was consulted or informed before this momentous statement was made and this policy laid down. However, Mr. Speaker, we were very much relieved to know that the issue is being submitted to the security council of the United Nations and that the organization of American states is also being consulted.
We urge upon the government, and particularly the Secretary of State for External Affairs in whom we all have great confidence to utilize to the very limit our friendship for and our association with many nations of the world to the end that the cause of peace will be well served by Canada in the very serious and fateful days ahead.

Ways and Means
Members of this party extend to the government our sincere and wholehearted cooperation in all it undertakes to advance this cause in which we all believe.



[Stage Direction]
The house resumed in committee of ways and means, Mr. Paul in the chair.
George Clyde Nowlan: Mr. Chairman, in view of the atmosphere and the discussion on the speech of President Kennedy which has taken place during the last few minutes, it is rather hard for one to start dealing with the more or less mundane matters of finance once more. This should be an object lesson to a juvenile Minister of Finance who, when he spoke in the house in the past, always used an envelope for his notes. This time he was told he should prepare a text, and having prepared the text and having distributed it to the press gallery, he has now to go ahead with it. Otherwise he might sit down and call it a day.
However, in view of this discussion and the problems which are confronting us, perhaps it would be just as well for us to make a careful review of our own economic situation. Those problems may be difficult enough in peacetime, but we must also survey the future in what I hope will be a calm and dispassionate way.
Just before we moved back into the house to discuss certain matters, I was referring to the price level in this country and I would like to draw again to the committee's attention one or two factors in connection with it. We have been told that the exchange rate was going to affect the level of consumer prices very much. We have heard dire forebodings about great increases in prices, but I would like to point out that when we compare the level of consumer prices in Canada and the United States, since January 1961 the exchange value of the Canadian dollar has decreased by about 8 per cent but during that period consumer prices in the United States did not decline. They rose by 1.6 per cent and ours have only risen by 1.4 per cent; so that the decrease in the exchange value of the dollar, instead of resulting in a great increase in prices has not resulted in as great a price increase in this country as has been the situation in the United States.
Mr. Chairman, as I have said, I do not want to enter into any partisan area whatsoever tonight, but this I think should be said. It has been claimed that the measures introduced on June 24 would have an adverse effect on the level of economic activity of Canada. The facts up to date do not bear
IMr. Herridge.]
out these gloomy prognostications. Hon. members will recall that last April my predecessor forecast an increase in gross national product of 7 per cent over 1961. A review of this forecast has just been made in the light of recent developments. I can now predict, I think, as far as one can predict, with any certainty whatsoever, that the forecast will be met, if not surpassed.
Mr. Chairman, without any vainglorious boasting whatsoever, I simply say as a simple matter of fact and place it on the record from the figures which I put before the committee this afternoon and this evening, that the statements made by my colleagues and myself in recent months with respect to the economic situation of this country have been entirely justified and that we Canadians are living in the most prosperous year in Canada's history.
Having said that, Mr. Chairman, I do not want to suggest for one moment that all our problems are behind us. We continue to face a stubborn and deep-seated balance of payments problem which has been with us for many years. Indeed, since 1950 and even before we have faced this stubborn problem of balance of payments, and we are still facing it. It runs from $1 billion to $1.5 billion a year. These substantial figures are the measure of the excess of our imports of goods and services over our exports through these years. Financially the current account deficit has usually been met by large net imports of capital, and when earlier this year there was a reversal of the capital flow, the basic underlying problem came to the surface and we were faced with an exchange emergency.
There are strong reasons, Mr. Chairman, why it is of the utmost importance to this country to reduce and ultimately to eliminate the current account deficit in our balance of payments. First, there are real dangers in having to rely, as we have in years gone by, on the massive capital inflows which would be required to finance continuing large deficits in our international transactions. There was evidence last summer that such capital inflows may not always be available when needed.
Second, foreign capital import means an increase of interest and dividend payments to other countries. These payments already account for a large outflow each year. They can be covered either by an increase of our exports, a reduction of imports or further capital inflows. It would clearly be unhealthy for our economy to be getting further and further into debt abroad for the purpose of servicing old debts.
Third, large current account deficits can be harmful to the levels of production and

employment. In present circumstances, when our industries are not working at full capacity, such deficits on international account hinder the expansion of production and employment. Therefore, Mr. Chairman, it is very clear that we must work, and we must work hard, to achieve a steady reduction in this large excess of imports over exports and bring about a much better balance in our current international account.
There is no simple method of achieving this. It cannot be done overnight. We will continue to need net imports of capital for some time to come. We will always continue to welcome foreign capital and maintain a hospitable climate in Canada for foreign investors. Let me emphasize, Mr. Chairman, that the necessary basic improvement in our current account cannot be achieved by restrictive measures. Such measures as our import surcharges were essential in overcoming the immediate exchange emergency and will in large part have to be retained until there is clearly evidence of a basic improvement in our external financial position. But they cannot form part of any program for the lasting improvement of our current account position. Indeed, if they were retained too long they would defeat our purpose, for they would begin to make Canadian industry less competitive when it is clear that we must become more competitive. These are strictly temporary measures and we have already begun to relax them.
This country must adopt positive measures of a long term nature. These measures must have two basic objectives. First, they must put Canada in a position to export substantially more goods and services to other countries. Second, they must put Canada in a position to produce more of its own requirements on a fully competitive basis. Our approach to achieving more economic growth and solving the balance of payments problem is expansive, not restrictive. We believe that Canadians can compete successfully for markets at home and abroad, and we will help them in every way we can.
Last week our Prime Minister made public his letter to President Kennedy and the president's reply concerning the Prime Minister's proposal for a world trade conference of like-minded nations for the purpose of reducing trade barriers of all kinds. The discussion tonight has shoved to the background this proposal with respect to trade. But I would remind the committee of President Kennedy's enthusiastic endorsement of this proposal, which makes it clear that we have strong allies in carrying through this most constructive initiative. We intend to take full advantage of this opportunity, not only to find new and diversified outlets for
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our exports but also to promote stronger and more efficient industries in Canada.
When the government, last May, reduced and stabilized the value of our dollar, the double purpose was to promote economic expansion in Canada and to produce a higher level and better balance in our trade and payments. Canadian producers, competing in markets at home and abroad, now know where they stand. At the new rate, many who were on the margin before can now sell effectively, productively and profitably. The new exchange rate policy, which has been widely welcomed abroad as well as in Canada-I repeat that; it has been widely welcomed abroad-has laid a foundation for economic expansion. But on this foundation we must build. The speech from the throne spoke of the objective of more than a million additional jobs over five years. The speech also outlined a dozen or more measures to strengthen our economy and improve our balance of payments. May I remind the committee for a moment of some of the measures to which reference was made.
Trade promotion: Our program of trade fairs and trade missions is broader and more vigorous than ever and the leadership given by my colleague, the Minister of Trade and Commerce, in that field has been dynamic during this whole time. Export insurance: the house the other day passed a bill to double the funds which the government can commit to export credit insurance. Export of power: responding to changing circumstances, the government will now encourage long term contracts for the export of surplus power. Exports of oil and gas: under the national oil policy and in other ways the national energy board will continue to promote these exports. Application of science to industrial production: Canadian industry will be given additional incentives under one of the resolutions which I am reintroducing today. Productivity: the productivity council will continue and intensify its contribution to the competitive position of Canadian industry in markets at home and abroad. Technical and vocational training: this important program is growing even more rapidly than we anticipated, and when I refer in a moment or two to the financial picture which confronts us toward the end of this year the committee will fully understand what I have in mind.
Government administration: the revised estimates include many immediate government economies. The Glassco commission is making important proposals for improvement over the whole range of government administration. Agricultural development and rehabilitation: the agricultural rehabilitation and development program, ARDA, will be

Ways and Means
pressed forward. Then there are the wheat exports. Transportation: we propose to bring into this house legislation which will be implementing substantially the recommendations of the royal commission on transportation. This is one of the problems which has confronted this nation since confederation and which we believe the royal commission in its report has gone a long way toward solving. The taxation structure of this country has been built up-I will not say like Topsy, but on a basis which is not entirely logical. We have appointed a commission to deal with this problem but at the same time we have not limited the government taking such action in this field as it sees fit in dealing with the taxation structure of this country.
Perhaps the most important development of all is the national economic development board. The problems to be solved in the years ahead, if we are to create more than a million more jobs by 1967, are formidable. Moreover, we are not planning to put people to work digging post holes and filling them up again; the new jobs must be productive and competitive by international standards. Many of these jobs must be in the export industries; many others must be in industries replacing imports on a competitive basis. This is the road to a lasting solution of our present balance of payments problems. This is the road to diminished dependence on capital imports. As Minister of Finance with a special responsibility for the economic health of this land, I intend to take a close, continuing and active interest in this new body. In stimulating and guiding our economic development along productive. competitive lines, the new board will have three interrelated tasks.
First, it will provide a broad new bridge between government, on the one hand and, on the other, those who are thinking and planning the future of industry, labour, agriculture, and the other important economic groups in our community. It is an essential aspect of national interest to encourage and expand constructive thinking and planning about national economic development by leaders in business, in agriculture, in trade unions and in other major economic groups throughout the country. In a country such as Canada in which free enterprise is a major factor, business policies and trade union policies are as important, indeed, often more important and influential than government policies. Government policies are, of course, important but they are not necessarily dominant. The economic policies and attitudes of businessmen, of labour leaders, of farm organizations, will often have the greater effect on national economic growth. If government

and non-government leaders pool their ideas, if each gets to know and really understand the views of the others, and if, consequentially, the varied policies are effectively coordinated, we shall greatly improve the pattern, the quality and the rate of our economic growth.
The second task of the new board will be to supplement, develop, and expand our government machinery for economic analysis, particularly where that analysis throws light on our economic possibilities. For this purpose we want to make use of the best economic thinking that is available. I do not want to suggest that members of the government, or officials working for them, have not been concerned in the past with the probable course of economic developments. Far from it. But we are convinced that our thinking and planning can be improved if there is, in one centre, a group of trained people whose full time job it is to think forward and, may I say, to use a somewhat slang expression, to think big.
The third task of the new board, and by no means the least important, will be, in the
words of the speech from the throne, to recommend to the government: "particular projects or measures which it considers would be in the interest of national development, including projects which may require direct governmental participation by way of financial aid or otherwise." I lay particular stress on the projects requiring governmental aid or participation. The government, like everyone else, has limited resources. Government spending, and other forms of government aid, can be economic or uneconomic, can be productive or counter-productive. Unwise government spending simply adds to the burden of government debt and to the deadweight of taxation on imagination and enterprise. But, as the history of our country has shown, government expenditures of a productive character march together with and complement private economic expansion and initiative. Public enterprise and private enterprise can be partners if they work together for a single expansive purpose. I am sure that the study which this board may give to projects which come before it will result in co-operation of that kind.
Having covered generally some of the economic problems with which we are confronted today and with which we are likely to be confronted tomorrow, may I conclude by turning briefly to the situation concerning government accounts. This, of course, is of interest to the committee in view of the discussion we had this afternoon and which is likely to continue for the next day or so.

Last April my predecessor estimated that our budgetary expenditures in the current year would be $6,525 million. Since then, as indicated in the revised main estimates which I tabled last Thursday, we have arranged to reduce our requested appropriations for controllable expenditures by $228 million. On the other hand, there have been, or are likely to be, certain considerable increases in several of the statutory or contractual classes of expenditures. For example, the rapid and encouraging speed-up in provincial expenditures on vocational and technical training schools seems likely to increase our contributions to these projects by close to $100 million. The rising rates of provincial expenditures on hospital and other welfare services in respect of which we share about one half of the cost are likely to add some $30 million to $35 million to our outlays. The other evening, in another debate, someone charged the government with reducing its expenditure on the social services as a result of its alleged austerity program. When hon. members consider those two figures to which I have just referred, I think they will realize that criticism can be withdrawn.
Interest rates on our public borrowings moved up very sharply in May and June, and while they have moved down again quite substantially in recent weeks, they are still above the prevailing rates of last April. Moreover, in order to finance our improved exchange reserve position we have had to increase our total outstanding gross public debt. As a result of these factors the total interest payable on our public debt this year is likely to be about $40 million greater than seemed probable six months ago.
In other words, there is likely to be an increase of about $175 million in our statutory or contractual expenditures. Furthermore, it now seems probable that the year-end laps-ings in the various departmental appropriations will be rather less than we expected last April. Consequently, the decrease in actual expenditures of a controllable nature is likely to be about $200 million. This means our present estimate is that our total budgetary expenditures in the current fiscal year will be approximately $6,500 million. On the revenue side our largest increases will, of course, be coming from the temporary emergency import surcharges, and these will add about $130 million to our collections under the customs tariff. Current trends indicate that our receipts from other sources of revenue will be up by about $20 million. In other words, our total budgetary revenues for 1962-63 are now estimated to be about $5,930 million, or $150 million higher than our April forecast.
Ways and Means
By consent, I should like to insert at this point in Hansard a table comparing the April estimate and our current revised estimate of our 1962-63 revenues.
Do I have the consent of the committee?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
[Editor's Note: The table referred to is as follows:]
Revenues 1962-63
Estimate
	(in millions of dollars)	
	In April,	In October,
	1962	1962
Personal income tax	.. $1,784	$1,750Corporation income	tax 1,168	1,180Non-resident tax ...	... 120	125Estate tax 	.. . 90	90Customs duties	... 550	680Sales tax 	... 813	825All other taxes	... 630	640Total taxes 	... 5,155	5,290Non-tax revenues ..	... 625	640Total revenues ....	.. . $5,780	$5,930


George Clyde Nowlan: With expected revenues of $5,930 million and expenditures of $6,500 million, my present estimate of the budgetary deficit for the current year is $570 million, or $175 million less than the $745 million forecast presented to the previous parliament, and some $220 million less than the actual deficit for 1961-62.
Excluding any inflows or outflows from the exchange reserve fund, which are quite unpredictable, our cash requirements for the current year will be considerably less than we estimated last April. Crown corporations such as central mortgage and housing, export credits and farm credits are likely to require about $125 million less cash advances than seemed probable six months ago, and-this will be of interest, Mr. Chairman-the prospects are that the unemployment insurance fund will need $40 million less than our earlier forecast. The reduction of $175 million in our estimated budgetary deficit will further reduce our cash requirements.
Our net cash requirements for the remainder of this fiscal year, again excluding the exchange fund, will be about $500 million. I hope, indeed I confidently expect, that we will get at least this amount from our net sales of Canada savings bonds, which are at the moment selling at a higher record than even before; although, of course, the period has not been long enough to work out a considered judgment with respect to that matter. We will, of course, have to put out very large refunding

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issues, since we have maturing market issues from now up to and including April 1 amounting to $1,165 million. This figure includes a government guaranteed C.N.R. issue of $250 million, but does not include $445 million of option bonds which holders are entitled to encash on April 1, 1963, but which they may and are likely to extend to April 1, 1976.
I am assuming now, Mr. Chairman, that the committee does not wish me to go ahead with the details of any specific resolution, the income tax resolution, which you, Mr. Chairman, or your predecessor in the chair, called earlier this afternoon. Therefore, at this time I will not attempt to give any detailed summary of that resolution or the others which are before us. All I can say is that we of the government believe that that resolution and the other resolutions which are included in the ones which we will be bringing before you will contribute substantially to the economic development of this country; that it is necessary that they be implemented at as early a date as possible, having been subjected to careful and full debate and consideration in the committee and the house, so that before the end of the year they can be brought into statutory form and the Department of National Revenue will be able to administer them accordingly. I will, of course, be very glad indeed, when the specific resolutions are before the house to give such explanations of them as may be necessary and to answer such questions and give such details as may be required; but at the moment I would think that this would be my general submission which I should like to make at this time to the committee.


Walter Lockhart Gordon: Mr. Chairman, I should like to begin by congratulating the minister on his delivery of a unique speech-a budget speech without a budget. Perhaps a magician or an old vaudeville hand might be able to get away with a trick of this kind at least at a children's party; but I think if I may say so, that some of us have been a little disappointed in what we have just listened to. Anyway it was short; but I am afraid I shall have to ask the indulgence of this committee in being a little longer, so as to fill in some of the gaps and some of the things the minister has left unsaid.
I was rather disappointed when the minister said that normally he was accustomed to speaking from notes on the back of an envelope. Expecting as we did a more full and complete review of the economic and financial problems which are facing this country at this time, and getting very little of that, may we suggest that in future the minister revert to his usual practice. As the minister must know, his remarks about the state of the economy were anything but complete. I can 
think only that this is so because of his embarrassment in presenting a budget without a budget speech.
I do not propose to discuss in any great detail the constitutional question involved in the government's failure to present a budget, but I hope that others may do this in the course of this debate. I do wish to point out, however, at the very beginning of my remarks, that any discussion of our country's economic ills and of the kind of action that is needed to cure them is made much more difficult by the absence of a genuine budget. Perhaps that is one of the reasons or one of the possible explanations for the minister's unwillingness to present one. One can assume only that the government does not want a full discussion of our economic ills because it has no effective action to offer for dealing with them.


An hon. Member:: He did what you suggested.


Walter Lockhart Gordon: You had better wait until I am finished. The speech from the throne on September 27 stated this:
New budget measures will be introduced to provide further solutions to long term problems.
Three weeks later we are told that there is not going to be a budget for this year.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Who said so?


Walter Lockhart Gordon: Well, the minister stated the other day that he thought anybody with any intelligence would be able to figure it out for himself. Mr. Chairman, this failure to present a budget can mean only one of two things: either that the government was completely cynical when the words I have quoted were included in the speech from the throne to be read by the Queen's representative in Canada; or the government is now afraid to produce a budget for the coming year. In either case it is quite clear that this government cannot be trusted.
Quite apart from the government's decision not to present a budget, the minister has failed to identify our long term problems and to say what remedies will be proposed to deal with them. It is quite true that in the course of his speech the minister read off a list of various proposals, but these various suggestions are not enough. They do not add up to a comprehensive program which will put this country in high gear again. This house spent last week in dealing with the Export Credits Insurance Act and the Farm Credit Act, and it is now expected to deal with certain resolutions held over from the budget presented to, but not adopted by, the last parliament. I do not say that any of these measures are not important, but no one would suggest that they are the main parts of the

kind of positive and all-embracing program needed to get Canada on her feet again.
It will not have gone unnoticed that the minister said practically nothing-I repeat practically nothing-on the subject of interest rates or credit, or on monetary policy. I find this most surprising in view of the vital importance of these matters and of their concern to all members of this house. It is true that in his speech to this house on October 9 the minister stated, as reported on page 336 of Hansard:
I do want to say right now that I deny categorically and absolutely that there is any policy of tight money in this country.
While I was astonished to hear the minister say this, I presumed that it was merely an example of his exuberance in his first speech as Minister of Finance; or perhaps he really thinks that money is not tight, incredible though that may seem. If so, I would suggest to the minister that he should consult with any of the small businessmen of this country or for that matter any of the larger ones, and they will tell him that if tight money means they cannot get bank credit at reasonable rates of interest for legitimate business purposes, then in Canada these days we have tight money with a vengeance. I expect that representatives of the chartered banks will confirm this if the minister cares to ask them. In the same speech, on pages 335 and 336 of Hansard, the minister stated:
As a matter of fact, I suppose I might say- I hope I will not be misunderstood in saying this as Minister of Finance-that if any of us can find any three people in any place in the country who agree on monetary theory, then we are accomplishing a miracle.
This is an amazing thing for any minister of finance to say, Mr. Chairman, especially one who follows in the footsteps of the present Minister of Justice, who referred to me before the dinner break. We know that in the past five years the previous minister of finance demonstrated on every possible occasion that he had no conception of monetary theory or of monetary policy. Surely we are not going to go through all that again.


An hon. Member:: Like your book, tell us about your book.


Gordon Campbell Chown: Order. I have been led to believe that the Minister of Finance received a very fair and reasonably uninterrupted hearing, and I think the financial critic of the opposition party should receive the same courtesy.


Walter Lockhart Gordon: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I was just about to say that I was intrigued by the minister's reference to three people.
I had not believed the rumours that the
Ways and Means
finance department was to be governed by a troika consisting of the minister, who was to be the front man, the previous or ex-minister, who was to make the offstage and offshore noises, and the Minister without Portfolio, who was to make the decisions and set the policies. The Minister without Portfolio is sometimes to be seen peering down upon us from the galleries. Today, Mr. Chairman, we have heard from the minister, we have heard from the ex-minister, and I think we are all sorry that we have not an opportunity in this house to hear from the third minister, the Minister without Portfolio. I can only add that I am sure the Secretary of State for External Affairs will agree that the troika principle would negate the usefulness of the United Nations and the same thing, I suggest, would be true of the Department of Finance.
I should like to say something now, Mr. Chairman, about Canada's basic problems in the economic field, all of which are interrelated.


Mr. Woolliams:: What chapter is this?


Walter Lockhart Gordon: Mr. Chairman, I suppose I should thank hon. members opposite for giving such a plug to certain publications I have written. My publisher told me at the end of last week that he would have to bring out another edition. I told the Minister of Labour that I was grateful to him for his contribution and if he had a claim to any of the royalties I should like to hear from him.


George Clyde Nowlan: It will be a revised one, I hope.


Walter Lockhart Gordon: Our basic economic problems can be discussed appropriately under four main headings, the rate of economic growth, the rate of investment, both public and private, our balance of payments, and the levels of employment.
First, let me speak about the rate of growth. The rate of production in Canada, after adjustments for changes in the price level, increased on the average by less than 2 per cent per annum during the years 1957 to 1961 inclusive. This rate was much too low. The population of Canada increased during that period, and when this is taken into account we find that the average output per capita actually declined in that period. This, I suggest, is a sorry record compared with what has been happening in other countries.
The other night on television the Prime Minister used some strange figures about our economic growth that bore no relation to the facts. I hope that the next time the Prime Minister or any of his colleagues plan to use the forecasts of the royal commission with which I was connected they will get

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some competent advice on the differences between an increase in real production and figures which reflect rising prices. Otherwise such comparisons are about as accurate-


Mr. Starr:: As your book.


Walter Lockhart Gordon: -as comparing apples and bananas. In this present year 1962 we have been in the upward phase of the business cycle and there has been some improvement in conditions. I think we all rejoice in that.


Michael Starr: Why don't you smile?


Walter Lockhart Gordon: But there are three hard facts that the minister did not mention and which I suggest should not be lost sight of. First, even in this relatively good year unemployment is averaging nearly 6 per cent on a seasonally adjusted basis. Second, even this year's recovery is barely raising the level of real production and real income of each Canadian back to the levels reached in 1956. Third, most economists believe that the current business upswing is very near its peak. The year 1962 has been a relatively good one but 1963 will be another slow year.


Michael Starr: Doom and gloom again.


Walter Lockhart Gordon: We must expect a downturn in our economy with rising unemployment this winter unless the government takes the right action to offset it. I might say in passing that there is no sign of that necessary vigorous action from this government so far.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: They do not know how.


Walter Lockhart Gordon: My second point was the question of investment. Total investment in Canada more than doubled in the years 1947 to 1957 and prosperity during that period was high. In contrast, from 1957 to 1961 total investment, which includes government investment, declined by 13 per cent. Private investment declined by 19 per cent. Investment expenditures are the immediate cause of economic expansion and they also contribute greatly to increased personal expenditures. The decline in investment since 1957 has been a major source of weakness. It is the main cause of our stagnation and lack of growth. It follows from this that if we want to eliminate stagnation and to reinvigorate our economy the most immediate objective of economic policy should be to increase investment expenditures in Canada, public as well as private. I do wish to emphasize the importance of this.
My third point was our balance of payments, and I agree with much of what the minister had to say on this subject. We have had an adverse-


Donald Methuen Fleming: That is gracious of you.


Walter Lockhart Gordon: I did not always agree with the previous minister in what he had to say on this subject.
We have had an adverse balance of payments with other countries every year since 1952. In current dollars, this has averaged the sum of $735 million per annum in the first four years, 1953 to 1956, but in the next four years, 1957 to 1960, the average imbalance went up to $1,335 million a year.


Mr. Pugh:: Have you the figures for 1956?


Walter Lockhart Gordon: Yes, 1 have. I was also going to give you the figure for 1961 to show that it was reduced in that year to just below a billion dollars. It was hoped that it would be lower again this year, but with the rise in volume of imports despite tariff surcharges, this hope may not be realized.
Now, those are the bare statistics, Mr. Chairman. What exactly do they mean? They mean that in the last five years our obligations for the goods and services we have bought from foreigners have exceeded their obligations for goods and services they have bought from us by the staggering sum of $6.25 billion. We have paid for this by selling off our natural resources and our Canadian owned companies and by going into debt to foreigners. Now, it is true that some professional economists do not think it matters who owns or controls Canadian resources and Canadian companies or who has the final say in the aftairs of some Canadian trade unions. I do not agree with this. To me, this non-resident control of our resources, this absentee ownership, has been increasing for far too long.


An hon. Member:: Since 1947.


Walter Lockhart Gordon: However, it has been increasing especially quickly during the past five years.


An hon. Member:: What are you going to do about it?


Walter Lockhart Gordon: If I am given a little time, I will be telling hon. gentlemen what this party will do about it. The foreign deficits that by 1956 were beginning to trouble Canada have since that time become bigger, and they have become chronic. These are the facts. Now, we know we have gained a great deal from the many new developments that would not have been possible without foreign capital, foreign know-how and assured markets for the materials that were produced by these new ventures. But we know also that when 60 per cent, and by now it may be two thirds, of the manufacturing industries of any country are controlled by non-residents, that country is facing trouble.

Now, I should like to give one example of the kind of trouble to which I refer. We have to expand our exports, including exports of manufactured goods. But our secondary manufacturers are not likely to be interested in doing this if it means competing in export markets with their foreign parent companies. This is one reason why it is so difficult for us to bring our international accounts into some kind of balance. The degree of absentee ownership that now exists is one of our country's basic problems. We should take steps without delay to reverse the present trends.
In saying this, I should like to add a word of caution. We should not take unfair or extreme action against people who, in good faith, have invested their money and their resources here. By doing so, they have helped us to develop our country faster than otherwise would have been possible. What we must do is reverse this present trend, but gradually and over a period of years. But we simply must get started.
Now, my fourth point under which I wish to discuss the economic trends and conditions with which we are trying to deal, is unemployment. Unemployment in Canada has averaged 6.8 per cent for the last four years. This was very much higher than it was at any time in the previous 12 years.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Are these d.b.s. figures?


Michael Starr: Are these actual figures?


Lester Bowles Pearson: You do not like to hear them.


Michael Starr: They are not actual figures.


Gordon Campbell Chown: Order; if any hon. member wishes to ask the hon. member for Davenport a question he could ask him to yield the floor and the hon. member will deal with it.


Michael Starr: I wonder if the hon. member will permit a question? The last figure he quoted on unemployment, that average, is that actual unemployment figures issued by the d.b.s.?


Walter Lockhart Gordon: Yes, Mr. Chairman.


Michael Starr: They are not.


Walter Lockhart Gordon: I am glad the Minister of Labour asked me that question because I wanted to refer to a recent study prepared by the United States government concerning rates of unemployment in various industrialized countries in 1960. It showed that the rate in Canada in 1960 was the highest of all industrialized countries in the western world. I would remind him that our rate was even higher in 1961. In referring to that study the other day in this house the Minister of Labour said that such comparisons between different countries were not accurate because the statistics were compiled in different countries
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in different ways. I happened to notice, Mr. Chairman, that the authors of the study said they had made an adjustment to eliminate such differences. I draw this to the attention of the minister.
All hon. members in this house will rejoice that this year unemployment has been running at a somewhat lower rate. In September, the number of unemployed was 48,000 people less than in the same month last year. It would be wonderful if there were any justification for hoping that the improving trend would be continued. Unfortunately and unhappily, this is not the case.


Some hon. Members:: Gloom.


Walter Lockhart Gordon: I have said on other occasions before I was elected to this house that these high rates of unemployment in Canada are a national disgrace. Translated into human terms, they mean misery, frustration and unhappiness for hundreds of thousands of men and women and the members of their families. They mean degradation and sometimes ruin for young people who cannot find work. They mean a sense of hopelessness for people over 40-and I happen to be one of them-who cannot get jobs in industry and are made to feel useless and unwanted.
High levels of unemployment are the result of low rates of economic growth in the last few years. We could have had higher rates of economic growth. We could have had higher rates of investment. We could have brought our transactions with other countries more nearly into balance. We did not do so because the government in power in Canada during the last five years was incompetent, and becau e of the incredibly wrong monetary, fiscal and exchange policies that that government pursued.


Mr. O'Hurley:: You don't believe that.


Lester Bowles Pearson: The people believe it and they showed it.


Walter Lockhart Gordon: It is clear from the recent
legislation we have been asked to deal with, including the leftover budget resolutions that are before us, and the speech that the Minister of Finance made tonight, that the government has no comprehensive program for dealing with our country's long term problems.
In these circumstances I should like to review in some detail the kind of program that was proposed by the Leader of the Opposition on October 1. This is the kind of expansionist program that should be introduced without delay. It is the kind of positive program that would restore prosperity to Canada and result in the creation of hundreds of thousands of the jobs we need so badly.
The object of this program is to increase total investment in Canada, both public and

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private. In this way economic growth would be increased and full employment would be restored. These objectives can be achieved by conditions of easy money, adequate credit and credit facilities, and by fiscal incentives and careful planning. In the process the budget would be balanced out of rising incomes and there would be full employment.
(1)	The first essential of this program is an easy money policy. By this I mean much freer credit and lower interest rates instead of the tight money policy that is an integral part of the government's austerity program.
Monetary policy, as we understand it in Canada, began with the creation of the Bank of Canada in 1935. From then until the middle of 1957 the bank's interest rate varied between 1.5 per cent and 4 per cent. It averaged almost exactly 2 per cent over that whole period. Now, as we approach this coming winter, with the prospect of increasing unemployment, the bank rate is 5 per cent, and the minister sounded as though he were rather pleased with that.
The Bank of Canada rate is not in itself the full measure of interest rates, but it is the indicator of the impact of government policy upon the money supply and the cost of credit, and the figures are plain. This is a tight money government, a high interest rate government.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Rubbish.


Walter Lockhart Gordon: Despite the minister's protestations to the contrary and his associate minister's continued interruptions.
There must be some spread between interest rates in Canada and those in the United States; otherwise there would be a flight of capital from here but the spread in the rates prevailing in our two countries should be kept as low as possible and this does not seem to be the present policy.
Because of the importance I attach to this question of monetary policy I devoted most of my first speech as a new member to that subject. I shall not repeat what I said on October 4, but I do wish to emphasize that an easy money policy is of cardinal importance in the program I am putting forward. This being so, Mr. Chairman, there should be no possible misunderstanding respecting the government's responsibility for monetary policy.
Prior to the Coyne affair in June and July, 1961, when the present Minister of Justice lost his spurs-


Donald Methuen Fleming: They were left in the flanks of the Liberals.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Only a heel has spurs.


Walter Lockhart Gordon: -and in the process his reputation-and if he provokes me I shall be tempted to bring up the name of Mitchell Sharp and what may happen to the minister one of these days.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Oh, how dreadful. Oh, dear, dear. If the hon. member has anything to say let him say it.


An hon. Member:: Watch your blood pressure.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Keep cool.


Walter Lockhart Gordon: Mr. Chairman, I am a mild man-


Mr. Hees:: And for a very good reason.


Walter Lockhart Gordon: -but as I was saying, prior to that time the previous minister of finance used to protest long and vehemently, as was and still is his custom, that the government had no responsibility for monetary policy. When Mr. Rasminsky succeeded Mr. Coyne as the governor of the Bank of Canada he, and I am speaking of Mr. Rasminsky, issued a cautiously worded statement which in effect contradicted the position that the minister and the Prime Minister had previously taken in this parliament.


Paul Joseph James Martin: So did every other governor.


Walter Lockhart Gordon: I do not wish to quibble about the language that was used in the statements issued by the governor and the minister, obviously it was intended to let the minister down as easily as possible. I do wish to emphasize however that in the kind of program I am proposing the government must assume full responsibility for monetary policy. The carrying out of that policy is the duty of the Bank of Canada. But the responsibility is the government's and there can be no room for misunderstanding about that.
(2)	The second point in this program is that in order to increase investment in the public sector of the economy the government should embark on a really extensive program of loans and grants to municipalities. They should apply to streets and sewers, bridges and sidewalks, schools and public transit services, and assist with the clearing of slums and building public housing projects. These kinds of projects should be looked upon as investments to be paid for over a period of years. Building them would improve our cities, towns and villages and in the process it would provide hundreds of thousands of new jobs.
The government's intention to cut down expenditures on public works as part of its austerity program is the wrong thing to do in

present circumstances. It will slow activity in the construction industry and thus add to the unemployment problem this coming winter.
(3)	As the third point in the program, it is clear that we cannot go on paying more to foreigners each year for goods and services than we receive from them for the things we sell to them. To do this would lead only to another exchange crisis and it would mean the continuance of the present problem of finding jobs for people who are unemployed. The right policy for Canada in these circumstances is to increase production in this country, wherever this can be done without increasing costs.
In discussing this question in parliament during the throne speech, the Leader of the Opposition mentioned the example of the automobile industry. As he pointed out, in 1961 we imported more than $300 million worth of automobile parts, which is the equivalent of somewhere between 40,000 and
50,000	jobs. As he also pointed out, certain countries in Europe have flourishing automobile industries although their domestic markets are no bigger than our own. They produce their own cars. Our automobile industry could do the same. This might involve some degree of standardization among the automobile companies of certain parts, including automatic transmissions. It might involve the implementation of some aspects of the report of the Bladen royal commission. Undoubtedly it would require full discussion with representatives of all sections of the industry. But if the importance of the action required was made clear, I am sure a satisfactory way of doing it would be found. Other examples could be mentioned of industries where we shall have to achieve a greater volume of Canadian output if our international accounts are to be balanced.
Mr. Chairman, we must strive for a greater production of Canadian oil. In 1961, last year, our imports of crude oil and petroleum products exceeded our exports by some $137 million and if natural gas is included in the calculations, and I do not believe it should, our adverse balance still exceeded $100 million.
Steps should be taken to bring our imports and exports of oil and petroleum products into balance. I know that some progress has been made in this direction, but a great deal more should be done, and it should be done quickly. Either we should increase our exports very considerably or we should take another serious, hard look at the case for an allCanadian oil pipe line from Alberta to Ontario and Quebec. This would be a dynamic way to encourage the oil industry in Alberta and
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Saskatchewan and it would also stimulate the construction industry and provide more jobs.
When water was the principal source of energy in Canada there were good arguments for prohibiting the export of hydroelectric power; but with the advent of other energy sources, including oil, natural gas and nuclear energy, this policy ceased to have validity. If we are prepared to export oil, natural gas and coal, then why not hydroelectric power, provided the long term interests and potential interests of Canadian consumers are protected? This issue was raised at the beginning of 1957 by the royal commission with which I had some connection. Being a new idea, it received a critical reception, especially from some of the hon. gentlemen opposite. But the Liberal party soon began to suggest that under appropriate conditions, and subject to the approval of the national energy board-which I seem to remember was recommended by the same royal commission-it would be reasonable to permit the export of hydroelectric power from Canada.
This course was bitterly opposed by the Conservative party, and especially by certain prominent cabinet ministers from British Columbia. But according to the speech from the throne, the government is now prepared to approve the export of hydroelectric power under certain conditions, and I for one am pleased that they have seen the light, even if the motive for doing so may be open to some question.
(4)	Mr. Chairman, I have given three examples-and there are many others, such as chemicals and petrochemicals-of how particular Canadian industries could be expanded and more jobs created. In doing this we must make sure that Canadians participate in the development of the industries in question. Ideally, these developments should be sponsored and financed by private interests, but if there proves to be an insufficiency of private capital for such purposes, then public capital should be made available.
Now, Mr. Chairman, I am not one of those who wishes to see the state compete with private industry. Our kind of economy works best in circumstances where responsibility for economic decision making is decentralized and in so far as possible is kept in private hands. However, it has been necessary in the past to invest some public capital in large undertakings and developments when sufficient private capital was not available. I think we should be perfectly willing to do the same thing again when it is necessary to get industrial developments going.
In order to achieve some of these objectives a separate department of the government should be established to deal with the problems of the secondary manufacturing

Ways and Means
industries. We have separate departments for agriculture, fisheries, mining and forestry, and they are all needed. The secondary manufacturing industries, that employ about one out of every five members of the work force, need similar attention.
(5)	Now for my fifth point, Mr. Chairman. There is too much absentee control of Canada's resources and Canadian corporations, as I said a few minutes ago; we must stop selling out to foreigners, even if they include some of our best friends and neighbours. The present trend must be reversed if we ourselves wish to control the economic destiny of Canada. With this as the objective it will be necessary to make a number of changes in our tax laws to discourage Canadians from selling Canadian resources and Canadian owned companies to foreigners, and at the same time to encourage foreigners and foreign corporations to sell their assets here back to Canadians.
As a first step it will be desirable to encourage such foreigners to take in Canadians as partners. But the ultimate objective must be to buy back Canadian resources and Canadian companies to the maximum possible extent. This is not a task that can be completed easily or quickly. We must first agree upon objectives and then work towards them gradually, but steadily, over a period of years. But we must get started.
(6)	Now the sixth point, Mr. Chairman. A regional approach is needed in dealing with our country's economic difficulties. We cannot hope to have a unified and vital nation if there are wide discrepancies in the degree of prosperity and levels of employment in different sections of the country. The Liberal program includes positive policies for lessening such inequalities by promoting economic development in the areas that are least prosperous at present. The principle is well established of providing incentives for new mining ventures in the form of tax abatements on profits for the first three years of operations. The same principle should be applied in offering inducements to business enterprises to establish new plants and other establishments in surplus labour areas.
(7)	The Liberal party is in favour of expanding Canada's export trade in every possible way. Tax incentives should be offered for increasing exports. We are against a restric-tionist trade policy and higher tariffs. We disagree with the tariff surcharges, that is, the across-the-board increase in tariffs, which is part of the government's austerity program. Raising tariffs will invite retaliation and this is already threatened in the case of United States imports of Canadian softwoods.

We believe that for the past two years Canada should have been working actively with the European common market. We do not wish to see the economy of Britain grow stagnant and decline as it may well do if she remains aloof from Europe. If this happens, we cannot hope that Canada's exports to Britain will increase. On the other hand, there are good prospects for increased Canadian exports to a prosperous and expanding European market which will include a growing and dynamic Britain.
(8)	If we are to prosper in the future, it will be imperative for management and labour to work together more harmoniously than they have done in the past. The recent reports of the national productivity council's special mission to Europe points out that such co-operation has worked to everyone's advantage in some European countries. It recommends that a serious attempt be made to achieve a similar result in Canada. This should be a prime objective of the government. My friend, the hon. member for Essex East, made an excellent speech on this subject just the other day. I hope we shall have the benefit of his views in the course of this debate.


Donald Methuen Fleming: How soon?


George Harris Hees: That is one we can count on.


An hon. Member:: Old faithful.


Walter Lockhart Gordon: I seem to have struck a receptive note, Mr. Chairman.
(9)	As part of this program to put Canada in high gear-and I wish my hon. friend from Assiniboia was here this evening-we must make sure that our farm families have the opportunity to share fully in the national prosperity. That does not mean a lot of subsidies and handouts. It means aid to farmers to improve their production, processing and marketing. Such aid is needed not only on the individual farm but also by co-operatives and marketing boards.


An hon. Member:: How would you know.


Walter Lockhart Gordon: I happen to be a farmer.


George Harris Hees: Wait till they hear it on Bay street.


An hon. Member:: Do you use a pitchfork?


Walter Lockhart Gordon: If any of the hon. gentlemen opposite would like to come to Schomberg. Ontario, at any time, I will substantiate just what I have said. This aid involves programs for land use, farm credit and also long term credit for co-operatives; it means crop insurance, water conservation and the like- constructive measures for farm investment.
I believe that with the program I have outlined, with the kind of people who will

be needed to apply it, and with a restoration of public confidence we can resolve our basic long term problems. We can do something about the men and women who are unemployed and who want jobs so badly. We can increase the level of investment in Canada. We can bring our international transactions into line. And, with full employment, the domestic budget can be balanced once again.
If I did not believe these things, I would not have stood for parliament.
Having accomplished these primary objectives, we must go on to other things. We must improve the standards and quality of education at all levels, including technical training. We must see that all gifted students have a chance to go to university. We must do a better job in providing for our older citizens, including special housing as well as more adequate pensions. We must have a national program of health care, one that will work. And, above all, we must recapture the spirit that in the past has made us proud to be Canadians.
I do not believe these objectives can be achieved by the present Conservative government-a government that has lost the confidence of the people; a government without a program. We need a government which is not afraid of taking positive action; a government which knows what it would do. To get that kind of government, we shall have to have a new election. It cannot come too soon.
I should like to revert to what I said at the beginning of my speech about the government's refusal to present this new parliament with a proper budget for the current fiscal year. Let us consider what has happened since the previous minister of finance presented his budget on April 10, 1962.
1.	The parliament of that day was not given an opportunity to debate that budget. Instead, it was dissolved on April 18 and an election called.
2.	The Canadian dollar has been devalued and a fixed rate established.
In speaking of the use of the exchange fund in his budget speech on April 10, the minister of finance of that day said, as will be found on page 2697 of Hansard:
The government has not hesitated and will not hesitate in the future, to deploy a substantial volume of funds on one side of the market or the other in order to prevent sudden or erratic movement in our exchange rate.
A little later on in a discussion of Canada's relations with the international monetary fund, the minister went on to say-and I quote from pages 2697 and 2698 of Hansard:
Against such a background of general co-operation, Mr. Speaker, the house will understand why the fund, while naturally and properly retaining the ultimate objective of having Canada declare a
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fixed exchange rate, has not been disposed to press us into any hasty action which might prove to be premature and impossible to sustain.
We on our side wish the prospects of success to be more assured than they were when the Canadian government made its ill-starred attempts to maintain fixed rates during the years from 194S to 1950.
Only three weeks later on May 2, the same minister informed the Canadian public that the Canadian dollar had been devalued to 92J cents and the floating rate of exchange abandoned.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Are you against it?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Just three weeks later.


Walter Lockhart Gordon: He and the Prime Minister then told us that this move had been planned all along. They seemed surprised when nobody believed them.
But to return to my list of some of the things that have happened since the April budget was presented:
3.	Since April 10 there has been an election in which the present government got only 37 per cent of the popular vote and a minority of the seats.
4.	There has been an exchange crisis of very serious proportions.
5.	The government has introduced an austerity program that includes the raising of tax revenues in the form of tariff surcharges which have not been approved by parliament and which, apparently, parliament is not going to be asked to approve.
6.	The government has completely changed the monetary policy it was pursuing prior to the election. Since June 25 credit has been drastically restricted and interest rates increased.
7.	The government has been accused of fraud in deceiving the public about the exchange crisis and the state of the economy-


Some hon. Members:: By whom?


Walter Lockhart Gordon: -and so far at least the government's defences against these charges have been anything but convincing.
8.	Important changes have been made in the expenditures that are proposed in the current fiscal year. These changes cannot be discussed intelligently except in the perspective of a complete budget for the year.
9.	The Prime Minister did not call the newly-elected parliament together as soon as possible after the election. Instead, he went off to London to represent Canada at the commonwealth prime ministers' conference, and there to express views with which a majority of Canadians do not agree.
10.	The government's popularity in the country has fallen sharply since the election on June 18, according to recent public opinion polls.

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11.	And finally, since parliament met September 27 it has been clearly demonstrated that this government's life hangs by a thread- if the temporary support it has received so far can be described in such a way.


Gordon Minto Churchill: You voted for us on the first vote.


Walter Lockhart Gordon: Despite all these things the government and the Minister of Finance are now saying to this new house of Commons: "Get busy and pass the estimates for the year. Get busy and pass these old tax resolutions". The government seems to be saying, in effect, that this house includes a lot of new members, about 100 I believe, who should have never been elected. The government says in effect: "Keep quiet and do not ask questions about our financial affairs. We don't think you new members know what it is all about". The government says in effect: "Get busy and give us a blank cheque to run the country as we like". The government says in effect: "We won't give you a budget for the current year; what are you going to do about it?"
Under our parliamentary system, governments render a financial accounting once a year in the form of a budget. This includes the proposed expenditures, the estimated tax and other revenues, the amount of the estimated surplus or deficit for the year, the proposed tax changes, and the government's plans with respect to borrowing. It should also include a statement of the government's monetary and exchange policies. If parliament approves the budget statement that is presented to it and the changes in taxation which are proposed, it will support the government. If parliament does not approve the budget, the issue has to go to the people. This is the essence of our system. But if parliament is denied the right to examine a proper budget for the year, it might as well go home. Mr. Speaker that, in effect, seems to be what the government is saying to the hon. members of this committee, and I for one do not like it.
Mr. Chairman, may I call it ten o'clock?


Some hon. Members:: No.


George Harris Hees: Keep going.


An hon. Member:: Read the last sentence again.


Walter Lockhart Gordon: I will change the last sentence, Mr. Chairman, and say that neither I nor, I suspect, the majority of this house like it.
Now let us get the situation clear. In April the government presented a budget. It was a pretty free-spending budget with a large deficit. But the government would not allow the old parliament, the parliament that it dominated with so huge a majority, to debate the budget. Instead, it dissolved that parliament and put its case to the people. It tried to tell the voters that the state of the country was fine and that the budget was just right for it. Indeed if there was anything wrong it was that the government was not yet spending all it intended to. I say this because after the April budget ministers went across the country promising the addition of a causeway in the east, another trans-Canada highway in the west, and so on.
May I call it ten o'clock?


Some hon. Members:: No.


Rémi Paul: Order. It being ten o'clock shall I rise, report progress, and request leave to sit again at the next sitting of the house?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
Progress reported.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Lionel Chevrier: I take it we will go on with this debate for some time?


Gordon Minto Churchill: Does that mean we have to listen to the same hon. member tomorrow? Committee of ways and means tomorrow.


[Stage Direction]
At ten o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[Stage Direction]
Tuesday, October 23, 1962