1961-06-01

[Stage Direction]
Twelfth report of standing committee on standing orders-Miss Aitken,


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. L. B. Pearson (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, I wonder whether the Prime Minister could comment on the reports that have appeared in the press this morning that Canada has decided to increase its financial assistance to India.


Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, this is one of those articles that appear from time to time as the expression of a wish, no doubt, on the part of those who write them. As I said the other day in answer to a similar inquiry regarding the question of aid, when full consideration has been given to all the implications the house will be made aware of the result thereof. There has been no decision made.



NATIONAL DEFENCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Hazen Argue (Assiniboia):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Defence Production arising out of a rather fantastic report to the effect that a scrap dealer in Winnipeg has some 11 CF-100's in flying condition that he has purchased from Crown Assets Disposal Corporation. I wonder whether the minister could give the house some information about this transaction. Can the minister say whether tenders were called on this disposal, and can he assure the house that there will be no trafficking in war materials?


Hon. D. S. Harkness (Minister of National Defence):: Mr, Speaker, perhaps I had better answer that question. I did reply to a question in connection with the disposal of CF-lOO's on May 9. The answer is to be found at page 4543 of Hansard of that date. The
policy which has been followed in connection with the disposal of these aircraft is as follows.
There is a program of removing all usable parts where it is economically practicable to do so, and the declaration of the residual hulk as scrap. The residual hulks, as a consequence of the salvage program, would not be in a flyable condition.
In the case of the particular aircraft mentioned in the report referred to by the hon, member, the articles salvaged from them comprised all the military and purely classified items such as armaments, etc. In addition there were salvaged the bulk of the instruments, electrical accessories, telecommunications, hydraulic and certain key airframe components which are essential to the operation of the aircraft.
There is no question but that the removal of these parts would render the 11 aircraft referred to in the report unfit for flying. 1 am assured by the Royal Canadian Air Force that it is incorrect to assume that these aircraft could be flown and could therefore be sold. As a matter of fact I am told that it would require an expenditure of several hundred thousand dollars to put each plane in flying condition,


Hazen Robert Argue: A supplementary question, Mr Speaker. Could the minister say whether tenders were called, and could he inform the house of the purchase price of these aircraft?


Hon. Raymond O'Hurley (Minister of Defence Production):: Mr. Speaker, tenders were called in the regular way by Crown Assets Disposal Corporation and four bids were received. I do not have the prices at which these planes were sold as scrap for resale. We generally do not divulge confidential information of that nature. However, I may say that tenders were called and four bids were received.


Hazen Robert Argue: Would the minister obtain that information and give it to the house?


Mr. O'Hurley:: Mr. Speaker, I shall consult with the authorities of Crown Assets Disposal Corporation and the regular procedure will be followed. If it is possible to divulge that information I shall do so, but if it is improper I shall be required to treat it as confidential information.

Inquiries of the Ministry


Mr. G. J. Mcllraiih (Ottawa West):: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Did I understand the minister to say in his answer that these aircraft were sold for resale?


Raymond Joseph Michael O'Hurley: No, Mr. Speaker, not as aircraft. They were sold as contaminated scrap. For the information of the hon. member let me say that the 11 planes represented 220,000 pounds of scrap.


George James McIlraith: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Would the Minister of Defence Production explain the use of the words "for resale" in his initial answer?


Raymond Joseph Michael O'Hurley: Mr. Speaker, the Westbourne Supply Company purchases scrap for resale, as does any other scrap dealer.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. S. J. Korchinski (Mackenzie):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Labour which in his absence I shall direct to his parliamentary secretary. From reports received apparently there is a forest and bush fire northeast of Kelvington in Saskatchewan and farmers have been asked to leave their seeding to assist in fighting the fire. It is also reported that consideration has been given to taking grades XI and XII students out of school for the same purpose.
Would the minister check with the nearest employment office in the area to determine whether there are any unemployed listed who could be used for such purposes as fighting fires to avoid taking farmers off their fields at such a critical time and to avoid taking children out of school at a time when they are preparing for their final examinations, and thus provide employment to those who are apparently willing, according to some reports, to take on jobs such as enumeration in the forthcoming census?


Mr. R. D. Thrasher (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Labour):: Mr. Speaker, I shall take that question as notice.



WINTER WORKS PROGRAM-REQUEST FOR EXTENSION AND INCREASED FEDERAL CONTRIBUTION

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
['Mr. Speaker, we are concerned about the effectiveness of the cease fire in Laos. Without the equipment, and also without co-operation from the various parties in Laos, it is very difficult for the commission to make sure that the cease fire is actually in full effect.\nI can understand why the United States representative has raised this complaint in the conference. At the moment I am not sure just what will develop. The British delegation suggested that more detailed instructions be given to the commission and also, of course, that they be given more equipment. This is along the line of what Canada has been requesting from the start. If the activities of the truce commission in Laos are to be effective, I think it must be given this assistance.']
Mr. J. P. Deschatelets (Maisonneuve-Rose monl):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to address a question to the Minister of Labour and, in his absence, to his parliamentary secretary. Has the minister any comment to make on the resolution passed by the Canadian Federation of Mayors and Municipalities requesting


that the winter works program be extended to cover the whole year, and that the federal contribution to the program be increased?


Richard Devere Thrasher: Mr. Speaker, I will take the question as notice.



[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Secretary of State for External Affairs whether he would care to comment on the statement of the head of the United States delegation at the Geneva conference on Laos yesterday, when he warned that the conference is in danger of collapse if pro-communist Pathet Lao forces continue to violate the cease fire.


Hon. Howard C. Green (Secretary of Slate for External Affairs):: Mr. Speaker, we are concerned about the effectiveness of the cease fire in Laos. Without the equipment, and also without co-operation from the various parties in Laos, it is very difficult for the commission to make sure that the cease fire is actually in full effect.
I can understand why the United States representative has raised this complaint in the conference. At the moment I am not sure just what will develop. The British delegation suggested that more detailed instructions be given to the commission and also, of course, that they be given more equipment. This is along the line of what Canada has been requesting from the start. If the activities of the truce commission in Laos are to be effective, I think it must be given this assistance.



POST OFFICE DEPARTMENT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. W. Herridge (Kootenay West):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to address a question to the Postmaster General. Can the minister assure the house that section 30 of the Weights and Measures Act, which provides that all weights, measures, weighing machines and measuring machines authorized by or under this act for use in trade shall be inspected, verified, and stamped at least once every year, is being obeyed by his department?


Hon. W. M. Hamilton (Postmaster General);: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

(Translation):



PRIVILEGE


Mr. Louis Fortin (Monimagny-L'Islel):: Mr. Speaker, with your permission, I should like to raise a question of privilege in connection with an article published recently in Le Soleil, of Quebec city. The article commented on in great detail my remarks in this house during the discussion of certain amendments to sections of the Criminal Code dealing with capital punishment. The author of the article quoted me as saying something along these lines:
If we were asked today to vote for the total abolition of the death penalty, I would vote in favour of such a measure.
Mr. Speaker, the opinion I expressed at the time was quite to the contrary. My statement is recorded on page 5301 of Hansard for May 24, 1961, and I quote:
I shall be pleased to vote for this bill, but if I had to express my opinion right now on the possibility of abolishing the death penalty altogether, I would vote against the bill-
Mr. Speaker, without casting any doubt as to the sincerity of the author of that article, I thought I should make this correction out of respect for the truth and for freedom of opinion,
(Text):

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Flynn in the chair,
department of mines and technical surveys
Departmental administration-
202. Administration, operation and maintenance, $1,087,947.


The Chairman:: This item will be found at page 42 of the blue book and the details at page 284.
(Translation).


Hon. Paul Comlois (Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys):: Mr. Chairman, before I give an outline of the work done by the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys and of the requirements for the current fiscal year, I should like to say a few words about our country's mining industry,
In 1960, the keynote was not vast explorations or major mineral discoveries but the sustained and general development of known mineral deposits. Everybody agrees that 1960 was a year of arduous problems; the situation had to be re-examined closely in certain sectors of the industry. However, it is very gratifying to notice that mining is still playing a great supporting role in our national economy in general and in our export trade.
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Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
In 1960, our mineral output reached a record high of $2,480 million, that is approximately 2 per cent more than the figure of $2,410 million reached in 1959. In each of the three sectors of the industry-metallic minerals, industrial minerals and mineral fuels- production showed a moderate increase.
(Text).
Among individual mineral commodities, copper, nickel and zinc of the metallics; asbestos, sulphur and titanium dioxide of industrial minerals, and natural gas of fuels all registered significant advances in value of output. However, appreciable decreases in the value of production of iron ore and uranium of the metallics and in some of the structural materials of the industrial minerals sector nearly balanced out production gains of other mineral commodities. Nickel, copper, uranium, iron ore, gold, zinc, lead and silver, in that order, were the leading metallic minerals in output value and accounted for about 97 per cent of the total value of metallic output.
Nickel production at 427 million pounds valued at $313 million established a new high. The development of the nickel deposits at Thompson, Manitoba, proceeded on schedule, and official opening of this operation with its 75 million pounds a year production capacity took place on April 25 of this year. Canada's nearly 500 million pounds a year of nickel capacity represents about 80 per cent of total world capacity and assures an ample and continuing supply of this metal for growing free world needs.
Although Canadian copper production increased in 1960 to reach a new record level of nearly 440,000 tons, there was apparent oversupply in world markets with a resultant lowering trend in prices toward the end of the year. Canada improved its already strong comparative position as the fourth largest contributor to the western world's copper supply. Important developments are under way for opening up new copper producing areas in Canada; a railroad and a road the latter under the government's roads to resources program, are being built to the zinc-copper Mattagami lake area of northwestern Quebec to serve new mines being developed there; significant tonnages of copper ore are being developed for production in the Highland valley area of British Columbia; and copper developments in that province, it is hoped, will eventually lead to the construction of a smelter there to treat provincial ores.
Iron ore shipments in i960 declined about 12 per cent to 19.2 million long tons from
5688	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys those of the previous year. The decline was due mainly to the relatively low steel operating rates in the United States during the latter half of the year. Shipments to the United Kingdom and western Europe increased both in tonnage and in value in 1960 over those of the previous year. There are several iron ore deposits of large tonnage being developed for production in Quebec-Labrador with the first of these-Quebec Cartier Mining Company's eight million ton a year capacity operation in Quebec-expected to begin shipments from Port Cartier in June. Market patterns for iron ore are changing each year, with increasing competition from South American and African iron ores on a price-quality basis. It is of interest to note that shipments to Japan from British Columbia deposits passed the one million tons a year mark for the first time in 1960. The potential market for iron ore in Japan is large, and shipments from western Canada are expected to increase steadily.
The continuing lead and zinc import quotas imposed by the United States government on September 22, 1958 tend to have a restraining influence on the production of these commodities both in Canada and other major producing countries. Canada is well represented on the international lead and zinc study group which held its third meeting at Mexico City from March 20-24. Several major projects to develop substantial deposits of lead-zinc ores are progressing. The government is surveying a railway route from Grim-shaw, Alberta, to Pine Point, Northwest Territories, where large lead-zinc deposits await development. Mention has already been made of a railroad nearing completion to the Mat-tagami lake area of Quebec, where several properties are nearing the production stage. There has also been renewed interest in the deposits in the Bathurst area of New Brunswick. It is hoped that an announcement will soon be made that an electrolytic zinc refinery will be built in Quebec to treat zinc concentrates from mines in eastern Canada.
Since 1953 crude petroleum has been the largest single contributor to Canada's mineral output, with production in 1960 being valued at nearly $433 million. The highlight of this segment of the mineral industry was the recent announcement of the government's national oil policy, which called for oil production to reach 625,000 barrels a day by June, 1961, with an average production of 640,000 barrels a day for the whole year. It appears that average daily production for the first six months of the year will be about 594,000 barrels with a monthly high in May or June of about 640,000 barrels a day.


For comparison, the average daily production in 1960 was 535,000 barrels. I am certain hon. members will agree this is a commendable increase, and it appears that the petroleum industry will reach the government's goal. Proven reserves of petroleum in Canada reached a peak of over 4.2 billion barrels at the end of 1960 despite a record year's production.
In the natural gas industry the highlight of the past year was the approval by government agencies in Canada and United States of large scale exports of natural gas from western Canada to the growing markets of the United States west coast and mid-west. This, of course, precipitated an extensive program of building transmission pipe lines to carry the gas. This, in turn resulted in a considerably increased tempo of activity by manufacturers of steel pipe. Natural gas production in 1960 increased 20.5 per cent over that of 1959 to more than 500 billion cubic feet valued at over $48 million. Despite this record production, proven reserves of natural gas at the end of 1960 had increased over 15 per cent from a year earlier to more than 30 trillion cubic feet.
The combined total value of crude petroleum, natural gas and liquid hydrocarbons showed a growth for 1960 of 5.4 per cent over the 1959 value of production, a most gratifying rate of growth for an industry which is undergoing a rationalization period subsequent to a growth of productive capacity in the 1950's far in excess of the ability of the domestic and export markets to consume, In a world of energy minerals oversupply, both industry and governments will be faced in the 1960's with the necessity of bringing exploration, development, production and conservation programs more in line with market availability and consumption growth.
The situation in respect to that other important energy mineral, coal, is well known. Suffice it to say that the present difficulties the industry is facing are largely the result of competition from petroleum, natural gas, and surplus hydroelectric power, In Nova Scotia, coal's difficulties are compounded by high production costs and the ageing condition of the mines. However, more will be said of this matter when I present the estimates of the dominion coal beard.
Uranium registered a 21 per cent drop in both quantity and value compared with 1959, Production in 1960 vas valued at nearly $263 million. During the year the industry passed through an intensive period of consolidation through mine closures, transfer of

government sales contracts and company-amalgamations. At the end of the year there were only 10 producing uranium mines compared with 23 during the industry's peak period in 1959. There was an intensive research program under way to lower production costs and develop new industrial applications for uranium. My department investigated, and continues to investigate, the use of uranium as an additive agent in the development of higher strength low carbon steels.
Gold production increased slightly to 4.6 million troy ounces valued at $156 million. Some interest in new gold properties was revived owing to the return to near parity of the Canadian dollar in relation to the United States dollar toward the end of the year. The problems that plagued the industry and its dependent communities during the 1950's will continue and increase in intensity as ore reserves become depleted. The government in 1960 extended the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act a further three years to the end of 1963.
(Translation):
As for industrial minerals, it is of interest to note that our shipments of asbestos for 1960 are about 10 per cent higher than in 1959, at 140,538 tons, for an estimated value of almost $119 million. Representatives of that industry who visited the U.S.S.R. in 1959 have gathered information according to which that country can now produce as much asbestos as we can. Should the U.S.S.R. production keep on increasing, we would be faced with keen competition on the European market.
Canada is slowly becoming a producer of basic sulphur, a by-product of the natural gas of western Canada, and we presently occupy the fourth rank among countries of the free world which produce sulphur in one form or another. Our daily production capacity will reach 5,770 long tons when two new processing plants are built. In 1960 the electrical titanic ore smelter at Sorel, Quebec, also produced for $300,000 worth' of titanic dioxide cinders and for about $11 million worth of remelting iron.
(Text):
I shall not dwell further on developments in the individual mineral fields, but should like to briefly outline some developments of the immediate future. They are quite encouraging. Crude petroleum production is expected to register an average annual increase of about 8 per cent over the next several years. Natural gas production and export will probably register the largest gains of any of the mineral commodities in the years ahead. This year the new nickel producing area at Thompson, Manitoba, will register its first full year's operation which, coupled with increasing 90205-6-359
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys nickel demand and the loss of Cuba's potential nickel supply to the United States market, places Canada in an even more dominant position as a major supplier of this vital commodity. Quebec Cartier Mining Company will begin shipments of iron ore concentrates from Port Cartier, Quebec, in 1961. Iron Ore Company of Canada and Wabush Iron Company Limited are also developing concentrating grade iron ore bodies in the Wabush lake area of Labrador.
Further strengthening and broadening of the mineral industry is assured through the development of production of zinc-copper ore bodies in the Mattagami area of Quebec; of asbestos deposits in the Baie Verte region of northern Newfoundland; of tungsten in the Northwest Territories; of iron ore deposits in Labrador, Quebec, Ontario and British Columbia; of oil and gas fields in the western provinces and Yukon territory, and of renewed production from the potash deposits of Saskatchewan, which are the largest and highest grade in the world.
Mining developments in Canada are widespread and diversified. The continuing development of this country's mineral resources is of paramount importance to many other sectors of the Canadian industrial economy. New railroads, towns, docks, pipe lines, processing plants and hydroelectric power plants that are wholly attributable to and dependent upon mining developments have been built. Many service and ancillary operations have been established or enlarged to serve the industry. Much direct and indirect employment results from the continuing development of our mineral resources.
The practice followed over the years by my department of assisting the mineral industry by laboratory research projects in the mines branch has been accelerated during the past two or three years. The projects are carried on at the specific request of companies as well as in line with fundamental research plans directed toward greater development and utilization of Canada's mineral resources.
In this latter connection it is encouraging to note that the major portion of domestic base metal ore production is smelted and refined in Canada. This is a considerable achievement when it is realized that foreign smelting industries, based on countries whose ore reserves are becoming depleted or whose sources of concentrate are uncertain, require large amounts of concentrate to maintain operations. In spite of the demand of foreign smelters for ores and concentrates, over 90 per cent of our copper, over 60 per cent of our nickel and zinc and about 75 per cent of our lead is smelted and refined in Canada and sold in the domestic and export markets in pig or ingot form.

Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
However, this high degree of processing before export does not hold true for iron ore. This is because the high degree of integration of the primary iron and steel industry throughout the world and especially in North America places emphasis on processing iron ore in the importing country. Processing of iron ore into pig iron, then into crude steel and rolling mill products is normally done at the site of an integrated operation, a location which is usually close to a source of fuel and almost always close to highly industrialized centres of large population.
The increasing world supply of minerals and metals, which in some cases amounts to abundance, is bringing about an increasing degree of protectionism in the free world's two largest consuming areas, the United States and Europe. This has been manifested in the United States by restricting imports of lead and zinc by quotas, by open hearings by the United States tariff commission to study the effect of iron ore imports on the domestic industry, and by the introduction in congress of bills to restrict the imports of various other mineral commodities including crude petroleum, fluorspar and tungsten. The development of protectionism in western Europe is evidenced by the formation of trading blocs such as the European common market or E.C.M. and the European free trade association or E.F.T.A. Canada has many competitors for these mineral markets. There is no scarcity of mineral raw materials in the world, and it appears that competition for world markets will become even keener over the next decade.
The phenomenal growth of our mining and smelting industries has resulted from foreign demand for metals in the form of ore, concentrates or virgin metal. The industrial nations of the free world have developed their smelting, refining and manufacturing industries to a high degree. Their need is for mineral raw materials such as ore, concentrate and prime metal rather than in the rolled or more fully processed forms. These countries protect their processing industries by placing tariffs of increasing severity on imports in direct proportion to the amount of processing that has been done on the particular commodity. In the mineral industry minor tariffs are set on imported ores or concentrates, higher tariffs are imposed on metal in ingot or prime forms, and progressively higher tariffs are usually in effect on semi-fabricated and fully manufactured products.
(Translation):
The minerals and the industrial products obtained from minerals are becoming increasingly important for the Canadian export trade. The export value of those products
[Mr. Comtois.l
exceeds that of products of any other industry. In 1960, that value, including the manufactured goods of mineral origin, accounted for 41.6 per cent of the total national exports. From 1950 to 1960, the export value of minerals and industrial products obtained from minerals increased by 124 per cent, while the value of the total exports increased by 40 per cent in the same period.
(Text):
From a mineral resources and supply point of view, Canada gives every indication of becoming increasingly important. This country will continue to be a major contributor to the world's mineral requirements. Our mineral resources are ample both to support a much larger industrial output in this country and to provide minerals and primary metals to satisfy any foreseeable demand by countries of the free world. However, to maximize the use of our labour force and to improve our trade balance it will be necessary to enlarge and diversify our secondary manufacturing industries, particularly those based on minerals. To maximize the value of our mineral output it will be necessary to attain the highest possible degree of mineral processing and metal fabrication before export. A first step in moving toward this objective appears to be the growth and further diversification of our secondary manufacturing industries to supply a larger portion of our own domestic requirements for finished products than at present. It will only be through continued close cooperation and consultation among all levels of government with industry that the desired results will be attained to the greatest benefit of our total economy.
(Translation):
I should like now, Mr. Chairman, to say a few words on my departmental estimates and give an outline of some of the projects in progress.
As hon. members will see on page 44 of the blue book, the department is requesting for 1961-62 appropriations to the amount of $44,600,358, an increase of a little over $4 million from the previous year. Salary adjustments account for 40 per cent of that increase and the remainder is mostly due to the development of field work and to the increased cost of these field undertakings, as we are progressing northward. Moreover, we have accepted to carry oceanographic projects in a much more extensive way, and we are assuming the cost of a third expedition, which will be the most elaborate one ever undertaken on the polar continental shelf. In the field as well as in laboratories, we have speeded up research in order to find solutions to the new and urgent problems raised by several aspects of our national development program.

(Text):
In our departmental administration we plan to provide additional services vital to these intensified programs. We will make more use of electronic data processing equipment to handle the countless repetitive computations that are necessarily a part of survey and scientific work. I might add that thanks to our computer programming an increasing number of projects can now be speeded or channelled into promising new avenues of research.
We have also allowed in our administrative vote for the purchase of camp and field equipment and other items commonly used by our branches. These have been pooled in one central vote to simplify their purchase, handling and maintenance and thereby effect savings in costs. In our mineral resources division more funds are needed for the publication of reports. During the fiscal year its officers will be engaged in a number of valuable fact-gathering projects and will take part in several conferences of utmost concern to our mineral industry.
For the surveys and mapping branch, Mr. Chairman, we are asking $19,047,454. This is to carry forward an intense survey program calling for geodetic work in almost every province and the territories, topographical surveys aimed at completing the initial medium scale map coverage of Canada by 1966, and hydrographic charting and related projects involving large segments of our coastal and inland waterways.
Time does not permit further analysis of the branch's current field projects, but I should mention that a number of parties will be working in the Yukon, the district of Mackenzie and the Arctic islands, and the cost of fielding personnel in northern or remote regions is necessarily high.
Let me stress, however, that our technical men are constantly testing, developing and making use of new instruments and methods that will do much to speed the work and, in the long run, will bring about considerable savings. At this point I am pleased to announce that the surveys and mapping branch has completed the move to its new building on Booth street and has the additional space and improved facilities it so badly needs. The official opening will probably take place early next year, at which time I will be pleased to welcome my honourable colleagues. With the addition of this new building our Booth street science centre, if I may call it such, is now virtually complete, but the estimates provide for a number of equipment items which could not be purchased until the buildings were ready.
This brings me to our oceanographic polar continental shelf programs, and here I repeat what I have said on a number of occasions.
90205-6-359i
1. 1961	5691
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys These are projects of far-reaching significance, affecting our economic and scientific progress and, to some extent, our national sovereignty.
The 1961-62 estimates call for a program of ship construction including the C.G.S. Hudson which will be, in essence, a floating laboratory for hydrographic and oceanographic research; and for the replacement of three vessels of the Canadian hydrographic service. It is our hope that the Hudson will be commissioned next year. I am pleased to report that construction of the Bedford institute of oceanography near Halifax is going ahead on schedule. The docking facilities and depot will be in operation by September, and the laboratory building will probably be ready by July of next year. When fully staffed the institute will have a working force of 300 oceanographers, hydrographers, marine biologists, submarine geologists and other specialists. I should add, however, that people trained in these fields are very scarce, and we are conducting a vigorous recruiting and training program in conjunction with three universities and various federal agencies.
This summer we will be undertaking a broad oceanographic survey of Hudson bay with special emphasis on submarine geology, bottom sampling and photography, gravity, magnetic and seismic measurements and other related scientific observations. In the polar basin 70 men, supported by three fixed wing aircraft, four helicopters and 700 tons of equipment are working on the polar icecap over a large area of the polar continental shelf. They are conducting investigations in submarine geology, seismology, gravity, magnetism, geography, hydrography and other fields. In these projects we have drawn on the experience and knowledge of men in all corners of our department and from other federal agencies and Canadian universities. Our oceanographic program is co-ordinated and planned by the Canadian committee on oceanography under the chairmanship of our director general of scientific services.
Mr. Chairman, I do not think I need dwell on the importance of this work, beyond saying that in our oceanographic and polar projects we -are laying the foundation for the development of our resources in these relatively unknown areas; we are paving the way for transportation and travel in Arctic waterways, both below and on the surface; and we are gathering information essential to the defence of this country. We are also making an important contribution to the progress of science.
The 1961-62 estimates also reflect the intensified task of the geological survey of Canada, which this year is sending to the field the largest work force of its 119 year history. One hundred and two parties-a total
5692	HOUSE OF COMMONS
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of 400 geologists, technical officers and supporting staff-will he spotted in all 10 provinces and the territories. They will work in all physiographic regions and in all types of terrain. Some, as in the case of the Hudson bay project in submarine geology, will even work over water.
For the geological survey, Mr. Chairman, we have requested $5,303,834. Specifically, it will provide for major reconnaissance surveys requiring the using of Piper Cubs and helicopters over the district of Franklin, the Yukon, British Columbia, Alberta, Quebec and Labrador. It calls for geochemical studies in the Northwest Territories, Alberta, and New Brunswick and Nova Scotia and seismic, magnetic and palaeomagnetic observations in many places. Ground water surveys will be carried out in seven of our 10 provinces, with special emphasis on the prairies where homes, factories and farms are dependent on underground water. We have been urged to intensify our program in this field and are making every effort to do so as trained men become available.
My department will also be fulfilling its commitments under the roads to resources program, and will send five geological field parties to northwestern Ontario at a cost of $101,800 of which $23,000 will be for the charter of aircraft. We also have made provision for a series of aeromagnetic surveys over large parts of the Canadian shield, the beginning of a 12 year project which we are undertaking in co-operation with the provinces. When completed it will cost $18 million, two thirds of which is to be paid by the federal government.
I might also mention operation Leaf river, calling for the mapping of large pre-Cambrian areas in northern Quebec, and operation Ogilvie involving about 15,000 square miles of mountainous terrain in central Yukon. It is interesting to note that by the end of the 1962 field season we will have mapped on a reconnaissance scale all sedimentary formations of our northern areas, which are conducive to the occurrence of oil.
Mr. Chairman, an expanding field program of this kind, imposes a great responsibility on the laboratory staff, who must not only conduct many types of supporting investigations and analyses, but who must develop new techniques and tools that will further the work both in the field and at home. Accordingly-and the estimates reflect this- the survey is gearing itself to meet a sharp rise in the demand for rock and mineral analyses, X-ray identifications and other laboratory research and services. It has asked for several highly specialized pieces of equipment including the apparatus required for radiocarbon dating. This will be used for

determining the ages of deposits not more than 35,000 years old by measuring the carbon-14 content of organic remains. I might add that the survey's radio-carbon laboratory will also be of service to archaeologists in their study of prehistoric cultures here in Canada. This is a good example of how progress in one discipline can benefit another.
To finance the work of the mines branch we have asked for $4,808,095, a sum that can be regarded as a good investment in the future growth of our mineral industry, for although Canada has been endowed with a handsome share of mineral deposits, comparatively few of these can be regarded as high grade and many of them are difficult to process. Developing commercially feasible techniques by which these can be made marketable is a research problem of major proportions. At the same time other nations of the world are giving our traditional mineral products strong competition, and it is essential that we explore every avenue by which present processing costs can be reduced; and we must find new uses for those minerals of which we have an overabundance.
You will not expect me, Mr. Chairman, to explain all the projects under way in the mines branch. In the physical metallurgy division alone there are over 100. But I should like to be specific about one or two.
Our work on uranium we regard as a matter of utmost urgency. We are seeking to improve the extraction processes currently in use at uranium mining camps, and we are seeking new non-atomic uses for the metal. As I announced last December, we have had promising success with uranium as an alloying element in commercial steels. Uranium can be added at very little cost and will bring about improvements in corrosion resistance, fatigue strength and behaviour at high temperatures. The branch is also experimenting with additions of uranium to non-ferrous metals such as copper, aluminum, zinc and lead and, while much work remains, I can at least say that results so far have been encouraging. It is my hope that these projects will lead to a better market for Canadian uranium.
The mines branch is stepping up its work on iron ores, investigating the possibilities offered by direct reduction and other processes. Our scientists are also seeking means of beneficiating Canadian niobium and manganese ores, of which we have large low grade deposits, and they are investigating a great variety of metallic and non-metallic materials. In one way or another the branch is dealing with just about every known mineral commodity.

(Translation):
Concerned with the distress of the maritime coal mines, our mines branch undertook a whole series of projects aimed at finding new outlets for coal. The fuel division has developed a specially designed power fire-grate for the economic use of maritime coal. According to our estimates, those works should continue in 1961-62. We intend also to provide money for an analysis of the problems involved in underground stresses. This is of course a long term program for certain Canadian mines. I hope that it will result in safer and more effective mining practices.
Mr. Chairman, time does not permit me to go into those matters at more length. But I think I have said enough about those projects to give you an idea of their worth. Many of them are of the utmost importance for the mining industry and many are longterm programs. But the common purpose there is to place our country in a better position, through technological advance, to develop its mineral resources.
(Text):
The geographical branch of my department is also making important contributions to our progress. In the fiscal year 1961-62 it will continue its land use surveys which provide what I might describe as a blueprint for agricultural planning, forestry and many other projects related to the effective use of our land and our resources. The branch will continue its ice studies, its terrain analyses and will update and revise portions of the now famous atlas of Canada. The current estimates provide $500,626 for the geographical branch including the administration of the Canadian board on geographical names.
Regarding the board I should like to make one observation. The Canadian board on geographical names serves as a federal-provincial authority in the naming of geographical and other features of this country. I believe, however, that too little is known of its work, and that it is not consulted often enough in these matters. A town, a lake or a mountain may look the same regardless of what we decide to call it. But many of our geographical names are both childish and inappropriate; others lead to confusion and misunderstanding. I believe that a little education and publicity in the right direction would prevent many an eyesore in nomenclature on our maps.
In our estimates we have provided $2,428,838 for the dominion observatory which is engaged in what is undoubtedly the most far-reaching program of its distinguished history. Less than a year ago I had the pleasure of opening the observatory's radio telescope near Penticton, and I can now
1, 1961	5693
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys report that its performance in the observation of hydrogen clouds has exceeded all expectations. Meanwhile the branch will soon bring into operation at Victoria, B.C. a new 48-inch telescope for complex investigations of the physical nature of stars and the interstellar gases. The building to house it has been completed and the instrument will prob-bably go into action sometime in November.
Getting back to earth, the observatories will carry out an extended gravity survey over Baffin island-a project of importance to national defence-and others over northern Quebec and Newfoundland, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and the prairie provinces. As part of its studies of the earth's magnetism the branch will continue its ground observations and will conduct a series of aeromagnetic flights over the Arctic islands and large areas of the Arctic ocean. Continuous records of magnetic variations will be provided from stations in the Northwest Territories, British Columbia, Alberta and Ontario.
In the field of seismology the branch will record earthquakes from its eleven stations stretching from Halifax to Victoria and will make special observations for the department's polar continental shelf project. The current estimates provide for building new seismic and magnetic observatories and the enlargement of the present seismic vault at Ottawa.
(Translation):
Mr. Chairman, I have just outlined only a few of the projects undertaken by the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys. Besides, I could not, in such a brief period, give our research workers and technicians the credit they deserve for their valuable help to the development of our country and for their well-known achievements. Surely, Mr. Chairman, I have said enough to bring out the essential part those people are playing toward a continued development of Canada and to indicate that in the near future, new and very promising avenues of research will be open to us all.


Mr. Dumas:: Mr. Chairman, I should like, first of all, to congratulate the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys (Mr. Comtois) for the fine statement he made on the activities of his department. At this point, I feel there is no need for extensive remarks and therefore, I shall only make general comments. Later on, we shall have every opportunity to put questions to the minister on the various items as they are called.
Mr. Chairman, the minister dealt briefly with the coal industry and he mentioned that he would have a certain statement to make when the items relating to the dominion coal board are under discussion.
5694	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys


Paul Comtois: Mr. Chairman, allow me to say a few words on this matter, since the hon. member for Villeneuve (Mr. Dumas) just mentioned it. It was agreed, I believe, with those who are usually called upon to deal with the coal question, when my departmental estimates are under consideration-and I conferred with a few of them- (Text):
Mr. Chairman, I think the committee should delay any discussion on coal until we reach the item of the dominion coal board. (Translation):


Armand Dumas: Mr. Chairman, we entirely agree with the minister as far as procedure is concerned and, as I understand it, it is agreed that we shall take up items 202 to 228 first. I understand that when items 229 and following are called, particularly item 229, those who wish to deal with the coal industry more specifically may then do so. (Text):


Paul Comtois: Mr. Chairman, I will have another statement to make when we arrive at this item.
(Translation):


Armand Dumas: In this way, we are proving that we are ready to co-operate as far as possible, and that we have no intention of delaying the votes which are necessary to the good administration of the department.
Mr. Chairman, all members recognize the importance of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys, and the influence it can have in terms of the prospecting, exploration and development of the vast mineral resources which are to be found in the Canadian underground.
It is gratifying to note that many members take a particular interest in basic and applied research that is continually being carried out in the different laboratories of the department. Others are also interested in the various geological, topographical and hydrographic surveys and other types of surveys carried out each year in different parts of the country. Finally, there are those in this house who represent constituencies where mining industries prevail, and who consider this department as an essential government service for the development of our country's economy, for the development of their own areas and for the welfare of the people.
We all agree that the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys has done excellent work in years past. We feel that the department should push even further its research


activities in the fields of geology and geography as well as its geodetic, topographical, hydrographic and oceanographical surveys. We realize also that the various branches of the department must have the most modern equipment and, of still greater importance, that the minister must have at his disposal the best qualified scientists.
It is obvious that to reach the goals I have just mentioned, we shall have to give more and more importance to that department and to put at its disposal the funds it may need.
It is imperative for the economic growth of Canada that nothing be neglected or done in a haphazard way when the development of our natural resources is involved.
The minister mentioned some of this department's estimates and he hastily added that all those expenditures are good investments. I agree wholeheartedly with that statement and I would be remiss if I did not say a good word here concerning the civil servants who are responsible for properly achieving the work entrusted to them.
Mr. Chairman, this country is fortunate that the various branches of this department are staffed with very capable scientists and highly qualified professional men who are devoted and conscientious employees. They deserve our gratitude and congratulations.
Last year, the year before last and three years ago, I think I mentioned that unfortunately when discussing the estimates of mines and technical surveys we had no complete report of the department's activities during the year just ended. I must make a similar remark this year, However, I should like to point out that in 1960 and early 1961, the information branch of the department published a series of memorandums, pamphlets and reports on the activities of some branches, and I extend my congratulations to the people who have prepared those reports or pamphlets.
If my colleagues in the committee have seen memorandum No. 49 which contains a preliminary study of the situation in the mining industry in 1960-I think a similar study was made in 1959 and maybe also in previous years-they certainly found there extremely useful information. Moreover, when one reads it, one finds that the various chapters have been prepared by specialists with the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys. We find there immensely useful information which can represent a basic knowledge for

those who want to take a more active interest in the mining industry.
In order to realize fully the importance of our mining industry and the influence it may have on this country's economy, we only have to look up the relevant statistics to see how rapidly it has progressed, more particularly since the last world war. Besides, that progress was mentioned by the minister in his speech.
The total value of Canada's mining production has risen from $503 million in 1946 to $2,085 million in 1956, an increase of over 300 per cent in ten years or, in other terms, an average annual increase of 15 per cent for that period.
During the last four years, the annual increase has been somewhat slower.
Nevertheless, in 1960, the total value of our mining production amounted to $2,480 million, as the minister said earlier-I had here $476 million, but those figures are revised from time to time-anyhow, $2,480 million, which means an increase of 2.7 per cent over 1959. From 1956 to 1960, the average annual increase has been about 4 per cent.
The total value of the metallic minerals production rose from $1,371 million in 1959 to $1,404 million, or so, in 1960.
The total value of our nickel production for 1960 increased by $55.7 million, a new high; copper production went up $31.2 million for the same period.
In 1960, the production of uranium registered a drop in value of nearly $33 million, and the iron ore production, a drop of $21 million.
While in 1960, the total value of mining production in Canada reached a new high, the annual average rate of increase during the last four years was considerably lower than for the years 1946 to 1956. That slowing down had a somewhat cooling effect on various sections of the industry.
It is also generally admitted-and the minister said a few word? on the matter-that 1960 was a rather difficult year for our mining industry, a year during which Canadian producers have been forced to make a most judicious and careful review of anything connected directly or indirectly with this industry.
Competition on the world markets is still very sharp. We still find it very difficult to keep our cost prices in line with those of several other ore producing countries, where the wage scale and production costs are only a fraction of our own.
1. 1961	5695
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
Moreover, Mr. Chairman, the United States is still our best customer. However, they are not without causing us some difficulties, because the entry into that country of some mining products, such as lead and zinc, is still subject to a quota system, and that is a source of trouble for Canadian producers of those metals.
Protectionist tendencies in some states south of the border are always cropping up. That is, at present, a serious problem which our producers must face. Naturally, time cures many evils, and the day will come when our American friends will realize that the sacrifices they have to make to protect a dwindling industry which cannot meet their own needs any more are too onerous, and then, necessarily, they will have to come back to better sentiments. Meanwhile, the problem remains and it must be taken into account.
Our uranium industry is facing a difficult situation. The minister referred to it. It is far from having found a solution to its problems.
However, we must not look only at the dark side. That industry will certainly be faced with great difficulties in the next decade, but we hope it will get over the hump when new uses are found for its products.
Steel production was slow last year in the United States, and naturally this has affected iron ore producers. There now seems to be an upswing in that industry. There is no doubt that if such an upswing is really felt, it will benefit our iron ore industry.
All those problems, Mr. Chairman, are of course a cause for concern to those interested in the mining industry. However, the picture of that industry is not entirely dark. Personally, I think the mining industry, despite its many current difficulties, will eventually find a way out, and in the not too distant future will enjoy even greater prosperity than in the years 1946 to 1956. The proof of that, Mr. Chairman, is that even this year when the industry is faced with difficulties, we find that its leaders are optimistic and are planning capital expenditures of over one billion dollars in 1961.
The minister has dealt with this subject, and I need not say more. Those capital expenditures will be spread out across the country, including particularly British Columbia, where the industry is enjoying great activity. Indeed, a market has been found for its copper and iron ore in Japan a country which is friendly to Canada.
5696	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
In western Canada, the oil industry is also very active. We are also optimistic for that area. Unless impossible restrictions are applied by our neighbours to the south, we really expect, that Alberta and Saskatchewan will enjoy very prosperous years thanks to their oil.
In Ontario and Quebec, and I might add Newfoundland with regard to the base metal industries, the iron mining industries will continue their progress unless, again, restrictions are applied.
That is why I say, Mr. Chairman, that the outlook in the mining industry is not wholly dark.
Consumption of metals is rising steadily. In the U.S., we have a market which, in the next 25 years, will be able to absorb the many kinds of metals we will be producing, in quantities even larger than we probably can supply.
The future prospects of the Canadian mining industry are therefore good, indeed excellent.
According to an old saying:
God helps those who help themselves.
The industry itself has responsibilities. Labour organizations have responsibilities. Federal and provincial governments also have responsibilities.
Altogether they must give the impulse required for the growth of this most important Canadian mining industry.
If you allow me, Mr. Chairman, I should now like to say a few words about our gold mining industry.
Even though the output of our gold mines increased somewhat during 1960, this industry is becoming increasingly unsteady.
It is true that during the past year, our gold mines have benefited from the amendments to the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act, and also, of late, from a lower premium on the Canadian dollar. Nevertheless, many things are hidden under these improvements, for the gold mining industry is now going through a difficult period.
Last year, three more mines had to close down, although it is true that a new mine was put into operation. None the less, Mr. Chairman, we believe that in 1961 and in 1962, several gold mines will be compelled to close down, unless there is a radical change in the sale price of that metal.
Under the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act, which came into effect in 1948, the


Canadian government has greatly contributed towards this industry. We have to admit that were it not for that legislation, very few gold mines would still be operating today.
However, this form of assistance to our gold mines is not adequate today. It maintains mines in operation, and that is a very important factor, but we must bring further help to this industry. For the survival of certain municipalities, which otherwise would become ghost towns, depends on the sustained development of certain mines.
This kind of help, however, does not meet all the requirements, unless the government has decided to abandon this industry, and this, Mr. Chairman, I do not believe it has.
Something will have to be done to rehabilitate this industry because it is essential to Canada's economic development.
In the past, it has been essential to the great development we have experienced. During the difficult 30's, the gold mining industry played a vital role.
And then too, this industry has been responsible for much of the discovery of base metal mines which are now in operation all across the country, and because of which our mining output value now reaches the fabulous amount of $2.5 billion.
During the last war, its role was of such importance that the Canadian government urged the industry's leaders to boost their production.


Paul Comtois: May I ask a question of the hon. member?


Armand Dumas: Certainly.


Paul Comtois: Since the hon. member is talking about gold mines, could he tell us if our gold production is found to fall off, if our gold reserves and our gold potential are on the decline, what he would suggest as a remedy?


Armand Dumas: If the hon. minister would wait for a few moments, I will offer suggestions. I may not give very explicit directives, this being a very difficult problem, but I could make suggestions to him.
We have experienced difficulties in the past, and the former government introduced the gold mining assistance act that this government has continued to apply and has even amended.
This act is certainly beneficial to the gold mining industry.

However, I suggest this is not enough, since the only purpose of the application of this act is to keep in operation certain mines which, of course, are the livelihood of a great many people who live in the municipalities where gold mining is the sole industry.
This industry then is proving most useful. The law, however, does not for instance, encourage prospectors to go out into mining areas in an effort to discover gold deposits. That is the point I want to make.
If our mines get depleted, as is indeed the case, the first thing we will know is that we will no longer have a gold mining industry, even if the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act is still in force.
I think therefore I am right in saying that the government should take the necessary steps to bring effective help to gold mines. Later on, during my speech, I hope to say a few words about that matter.
Mr. Chairman, if there has been such big developments in our mining industry these last 30 years, it was due largely to our gold mining industry. Today our country is experiencing difficulties. We should recognize that our economy has slowed down. We have to find jobs for hundreds of thousands of workers who would like nothing better than to be able to do their daily share in order to put our country back again on the high road to prosperity.
Mr. Chairman, some time ago our southern neighbours, who have more gold in their coffers than we might ever possess, quietly decided to subsidize gold mining prospection. And on this subject, I should like to read an excerpt taken from the Financial Post for April 15, 1961. I shall read it in the original, that is to say in English:
(Text):
U.S. Offering Half of Exploration for Gold Finds The United States government will pay up to half of exploration costs in finding a gold mine.
In a move to help its mining industry, the United States department of interior is broadening its exploration assistance program to include precious metals gold and silver.
Previously, it restricted its aid to minerals now vital to industry.
The United States is also willing to pay part of the cost of finding iron ore in the United States as well as bismuth, sulphur and tellurium. And it is increasing the maximum share it will pay to 75 per cent of exploration cost for asbestos, beryllium, chromite and mica discoveries.
We have often heard it said that the United States is not interested in gold, although that country is willing to keep on buying the
90205-6-360
1, 1961	5697
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys metal at $35 an ounce. However, Mr. Chairman, you can see from this article, which appeared in a very responsible paper-and it has been checked-that the United States is willing now under the Kennedy administration to pay 50 per cent of the exploration costs to find gold mines in that country.
Of course, Mr. Chairman, the present position of the Canadian gold mining industry and the chief trends which are now affecting the industry are of major concern to the principal gold producing provinces of Ontario, Quebec, British Columbia, Manitoba, the Yukon territory and the Northwest Territories; but in a more general way the survival of an industry which has played so great a part in opening up northern Canada and in building up our national economy surely must be a matter of interest and concern to all Canadians and to all Canadian provinces whether or not they are major gold producers. For many years now, little or no exploration has been carried on-


Louis Fortin: Order, I regret to interrupt the hon. member, but his time has expired, unless he has the unanimous consent of the committee to continue his remarks.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Armand Dumas: I wish to thank the committee for its kindness, and I shall take only a few minutes more.
As I said, for many years now little or no exploration has been carried on in the development of new gold mines in Canada. It must be remembered, Mr. Chairman, that gold mines like any _ other mines are a wasting asset. Because of increasing costs much ore has of necessity been discarded as waste rock. Furthermore, as present ore reserves are exhausted and with no new producers being developed, Canadian gold production is declining and will continue to decline more rapidly in the near future unless we do something about it. In the face of the evidence it is not an exaggerated conclusion to state that Canada is in grave danger of losing her gold mining industry.
It is my firm belief that a broad revival in the search for new gold mines could be the key that will continue to uncover our latent mineral resources, not only of gold but of numerous other metals. There is no doubt that greatly increased exploration activity generated through a renewed search
5698	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and, Technical Surveys for gold would more than duplicate the great successes of the past.
I should like to mention here the past records of our Canadian gold mining industry. The number of ounces of gold mined in Canada as of the end of 1960 totals 157,383,670. The total value of this production to the end of that year stood at $4,964 billion. We certainly must have topped the $5 billion mark by now. This is a record which outstrips by a considerable margin that of any other metal produced in this country, the next being copper with an aggregate of about $3.47 billion and nickel with an aggregate of approximately $3.46 billion.
Of the $5 billion earned through the production of this precious metal by our Canadian gold mines during the past 100 years, the best part was paid out in wages, materials and services. Some was paid in dividends. I am proud to say that Canadian gold mines must have paid close to $1 billion in dividends, and also plowed back more than $1 billion into the industry. In addition, Mr. Chairman, in producing gold to the value of over $5 billion our gold mining industry has spearheaded the development of northern Canada and the discovery of our huge and varied treasure chest of mineral resources, the value of which has been estimated at $2.5 billion for the year 1960 alone.
Before I conclude my remarks I should like to quote two or three short paragraphs from an address made last winter by Mr. V. C. Wansbrough, vice president and managing director of the Canadian Metal Mining Association, to the Prospectors and Developers Association at their meeting in Toronto. It is entitled, "One Hundred Years of Gold Mining in Canada", and I quote in part as follows:
Gold and problems related to gold have been more in the public eye and the public mind of recent months than at any time during the last 25 years. The drain of gold away from the United States treasury has given enough concern to cause the Eisenhower administration to take drastic steps, which the Kennedy administration has followed up by further measures, to protect the integrity of the United States dollar and stem the outflow of gold.
As part of the pattern we saw the sudden and dramatic flare-up of the gold price last October on the free gold markets of Zurich, London and Toronto, reaching at one point a peak of $41 an ounce. I mention this only in passing as an indication of current interest.
That is true. Mr. Wansbrough further said:
For our purpose it is enough to say that interest in gold is greater than we have known for years. We cannot foresee with any assurance what the


future will bring. But we can salute the wonderful record of Canada's gold mining industry upon its centennial.
I come now to my final words. I really believe that something should be done for the gold mining industry. I think the Canadian government should study most seriously the feasibility of increasing the price of gold. I mentioned that matter when the previous administration was in power, I mentioned it two years ago and I am proud to be here today to mention it again. I know there are certain difficulties, but if the government should increase the price of gold to $42 or $44 an ounce, let us say, it would be understood, of course, that this would be only for Canadian gold produced by Canadian gold mines. The government might have to spend a large amount of money to do this. However, if the government were to take such action it could be restricted to a certain number of years.
I am convinced that if something like that is done we will see the greatest rush in northern Canada that we have ever had, and not only in my own province. We do not produce the most gold. The province of Ontario produces the greatest quantity of gold. If this action is taken you will see activity across the country in the northern parts of the provinces, and the Northwest Territories and in the Yukon, with the possible exception of the maritimes. People will be looking for gold. Money will be spent, employment will be provided, materials will be bought, ore will be found, mines will be built and employment will be provided for all those who would like to work.
I will tell the minister why. In the extensive search for this precious metal, all kinds of base metals would also be discovered. The minister has said there is a surplus of certain metals at the present time, but let me tell him that 25 years from now there will be no surplus. Consumption is increasing all the time, and when that day comes our neighbours to the south in particular will be glad to buy their base metals in this country, because they will be short of all of them in their own country. I am not trying to give an order to the government, but am simply telling them that they should study the feasibility of increasing the price of gold. If the government do so there may be a chance of their great vision coming true.


Mr. Peters:: Mr. Chairman, in discussing the estimates of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys again we would like to

say that we are very pleased with the report the minister made this morning. His experience in the department has greatly increased his knowledge of the problems of mining, and in the light of this knowledge I am quite sure that much better service can be provided to the industry than has been the case in the past.
I was interested in the comments of the minister relating to our mineral reserves and the benefit these have brought and will bring to the Canadian people. Before making my general remarks I wish to ask the minister a few questions relating to my own area.
In Kirkland Lake, Dane and Cochrane we have large iron ore deposits. The potentiality and the grade have been proven. We have allowed large United States companies to obtain vast limits but have made no stipulation concerning the amount of development they must undertake. They do no more than is done by small local companies. To my knowledge no shaft or open pit mining is done in these areas at this time.
Much interest has been expressed in the developments taking place at Timagami. If United States companies are involved there, nothing more will take place in terms of development than occurred in the Dane and Cochrane areas. We should impose some stipulations on these companies. Where they have undertaken initial development and have proved the reserve and the grade of ore we should require that they undertake further developments leading to mining operations. The people in the local areas affected are plagued by the fact that large United States companies, particularly steel companies, have control of the claims and the industry and have no intention of developing the proven reserves.
I understand that we are holding in Canada large reserves of cobalt ore on which storage and handling charges are paid. I am curious to know why we store ore under this arrangement, and what is going to be done about it.
I am also curious about the relationship between the government and Deloro Smelting and Refining Company Limited. Why have not contracts been pursued by the government in relation to this valuable metal, cobalt? In the event of an emergency such as arose during the last war reserves of this ore will be difficult to assess and develop unless we give leadership to the industry at this time.
I agree with the previous speaker that the gold mining industry is confronted with difficult problems which must be solved. I represent two important gold mining areas, Kirkland Lake and Matachewan. The government 90205-6-3601
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Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys should do more for the gold mining industry than is presently done under the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act. The assistance given under the act serves a good purpose in enabling some producers to continue operations, but it really only serves to postpone the day when these mines will have to close down. The end has already come for some operators in Matachewan. Each year in Kirkland Lake one or two gold mines close down, and the situation is not improving. Very few new mines are being developed. The future of the industry in that area hangs in the balance.
I do not know why gold has always been the carrot, as it were, that has been held out to the mining industry. An examination of the history of mining on this continent reveals that the initial impetus always resulted from the discovery and development of gold reserves. This appears to be true of northern Ontario, the Yukon, California and other places where rushes have taken place. If the gold mining industry today were to receive the required assistance, it might very well serve as an impetus to development which would be reflected in the entire mining industry in Canada.
Mr. Chairman, may I call it one o'clock?
At one o'clock the committee took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The committee resumed at 2.30 p.m.
William Arnold Peters: Before the lunch hour, Mr. Chairman, I was making a plea for some consideration for the gold mining industry. As I left the chamber one of the members asked me whether I was making a pitch for the re-establishment of gold as the basis for our currency. This is not my desire. However, I believe there is a relationship between gold and the price that is paid for gold and our Canadian currency. I should just like to read a short paragraph from a publication put out by the Canadian Metal Mining Association entitled "Why Mine Gold?" In a paragraph entitled "Gold in Canada's Money System" they say this:
It requires a little probing below the surface to discover what role gold now plays in Canada's money system.
When the Bank of Canada began operations in 1935, it became the sole holder of the country's gold reserves. The gold reserves, held up to that time by the chartered banks, were turned over ta the Bank of Canada.
For the next few years the Bank of Canada was required by law to keep in its vaults an amount of gold equal to 25 per cent of its total liabilities in notes and deposits.
The war brought a change. In April 1940 the exchange fund order was passed; under it the gold

Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys reserves of the Bank of Canada were transferred to the foreign exchange control board, and the 25 per cent stipulation was suspended.
This situation, brought about by the financial emergencies of the war, remains unchanged. There is no law currently in effect in Canada which calls for a percentage gold backing for our currency. The link between the Canadian dollar and gold is no longer direct.
Nevertheless the link is there. First, Canada, by subscribing to the Bretton Woods agreements, became a member of the international monetary fund, through which all currencies of member countries are related to gold. And secondly, in July 1946, the Canadian dollar was pegged at parity with the United States dollar, which in turn is very definitely linked to gold.
I am not suggesting that on the estimates of the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys we should discuss these financial arrangements with respect to our country's currency. However, as the Canadian Metal Mining Association states, I believe there is some relationship and that the relationship, if it is desirable, would or should tend to direct consideration to the inflation that has taken place over the years in that industry so that the industry can continue to expand.
I think there are a few people in the chamber this afternoon who will agree with the statement that gold mining throughout the history of our nation has always supplied more than a small share of impetus to the development of new areas and new communities. These communities and areas that are dependent on the gold mining industry are now in a serious plight. It has become obvious to many of us, particularly those who represent areas that depend on mining, that the gold mining industry is a good example of what can happen but should not happen to an industry over which the government maintains such extensive control.
X think of municipalities like Matachewan. I have here a publication entitled "The Gold Mining Community", a study of the problems of economic growth in northern Ontario, put out by William Lougheed Associates, consulting economists, Toronto. They use as one of their examples the township of Matachewan. At page 21 of their brief they say this:
Matachewan lies about 30 miles southwest of Kirkland Lake and 50 miles southeast of Timmins. The community was launched on the wave of gold expansion in the thirties, experienced its greatest growth in the latter part of that decade, was incorporated in 1947, and has been hard hit by the gold slump of the last few years.
At one time the township had a population of two thousand, when the Young-Davidson and Matachewan Consolidated gold mines were operating. These closed between 1954 and 1956, and at the present time only Min-Ore Mines is operating.
This mine is also now closed, Mr. Chairman.
Population has decreased since the early war years by over one half, is now about 800. A quarter of Matachewan's 300-odd dwellings are

unoccupied, and pressure of costs on marginal mining operations has made the municipality exceedingly poor in comparison to its condition before the war.
An estimated 25 per cent of the population remains tied to the remnants of gold mining, and an effort is being made to develop forest industries and tourism to take its place.
I think this is an example of a small town entirely dependent on gold. This is also true and will apply in the next few years to Kirkland Lake, Timmins and many of the other communities that have only gold mining as their principal industry. I think some consideration should be given to increasing the price the mines receive for their product. This industry is and will continue to be, as it has always been, a large importer of United States dollars to Canada, something which is of greater benefit at some times than at others but which at all times is advantageous. I think this industry should be given some further assistance, whether under the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys or some other branch of government that is designated to see that the future is brighter for this industry.
Canada needs the gold mining industry, and the communities which depend on it need the gold mining industry. But it will only grow if there is an increase in the return to the mines which will allow for the development of other areas. This will be spearheaded, and has always been spearheaded, by the prospecting and boom that take place following the discovery of gold in an area. Little prospecting is possible at the present time because of the price of gold. I think this is a matter of grave concern and should be given very serious consideration by the government.
I should like to ask a number of questions about the uranium industry. We have learned some very interesting things about this industry in the last few weeks. I am very anxious to read the conclusions which will be arrived at by the research committee of the house when they report on their deliberations. For this reason perhaps I should not go into the particulars of this situation. However, it seems to me that the charges made some time ago by some of the miners in Elliot Lake have substance. They feared that something was happening in the industry which was allowing Rio Tinto enterprises, in particular, to obtain a monopoly in that area. Of course some of the things we have heard in this house in the last few weeks would indicate that this is true.
It seems doubly surprising that the Leader of the Opposition should not be involved in this matter, because his area in particular is hard hit by this situation and any encouragement that can be held out to the miners and

mining community of Elliot Lake is something to which he should give very close attention. I am sure he is doing this. How bad the situation is can be understood fairly easily by looking at the number of mortgages that are being turned in by the home owners of Elliot Lake. On January 24 of this year the Leader of the Opposition asked a question of the Minister of Public Works on this matter and the minister replied, as reported at page 1348 of Hansard:
The mortgages relating to 264 N.H.A. houses are currently in default and the approved lenders have advised C.M.H.C. of their intention to claim on the mortgage insurance fund. Two hundred and forty of the houses with mortgages in default are owned by the housing companies sponsored by the mines and have been acquired as a result of buy-back agreements between the housing companies and the mine employees who have left Elliot Lake. These houses are vacant. The remaining 24 mortgages in default relate to houses owned by individual home owners.
This interests me particularly because of the fact that many of my friends, men with whom I worked in the mines and who were neighbours and close acquaintances of mine, went into the Elliot Lake area and bought homes on the understanding that the enthusiasm of the provincial and federal governments and their agencies would mean there would be a continuous uranium operation for many years to come.
We need not go into the details of what happened, but it is surprising to me that an agreement which the Minister of Trade and Commerce called a Arm commitment was made as far back as 1957, before the present government came into power. I am quite sure that if this is true, it is also true that the present president of Rio Tinto corporation was aware of that fact, though he may argue that he was not. I think this is not something which would escape his attention. I am referring, of course, to the new contracts which, if realized, will mean some 24 million pounds of uranium will be sold to Great Britain.
It seems to me that there is substance in the charges which were being made at the time the Rio Tinto corporation was trying to buy some of the smaller companies. They were making the case with Eldorado that they should be the only ones left in this field, because by enlarging their operations they would be able to operate at a much lower cost. They were saying this should be approved by Eldorado and they should have the sales contracts that were in existence. I think the provincial and federal governments were not fair. I say these governments were not fair because they knew about this and did not tell the miners and the women who came to Ottawa, and others, that the potential was going to increase after a certain period of
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys time with the opportunity of operating the mines because of these large sales. If I remember, the whole operation was considered in relation to sales to the United Sales and the fact that these contracts would be concluded in 1964, and it looked as though there would be no uranium industry at all after 1964. I would say that very few of the miners would agree with this had they known there was a possibility of a sale of 24 million pounds of uranium with the consequent employment which would be created.
No doubt other hon. members will have more to say about this. I just want to say that I think it is a disgrace that people are not told these things. When they are living in a community like Elliot Lake, where their very jobs depend upon the mines; when they have invested $2,000, $3,000 or $4,000 in homes after having worked for many years to save this money, which they are going to lose, all governments and all politicians should refrain from playing politics with this kind of information. It should be made available so that each and every miner and householder in the community can make his decision whether to stay in Elliot Lake or go somewhere else.
Complete information on this matter seems to have been available not only to the Leader of the Opposition but to the government and the former minister of trade and commerce, now the Minister of Veterans Affairs. Some hon. members were not fair to those people who were faced with having to make a decision, and who had to make that decision not knowing all the facts. I believe this was originally the responsibility of the Leader of the Opposition, because he was in the cabinet at that time and later represented this area. He certainly should have had some knowledge of this situation prior to the 1958 election.
There is another problem with which I wish to deal. I should like to read a press clipping that appeared a few days ago, on May 29, in the Ottawa Citizen. It is something I have thought about, and I think about it in terms of other industrial occupational diseases. The article is headed:
Uranium mine cancer rate above normal
It is an Associated Press report from Washington, and reads:
The U.S. public health service said Saturday deaths from lung cancer are greater than normal among western uranium miners but an active program of controls has been set up by federal and state governments to curb the rate.
A spokesman said the rate is about ten deaths among 2,000 miners, compared to the normal rate of three in 2,000. Mostly, he added, the deaths are among men who have worked long in the uranium mines rather than from any short exposure to high radioactivity.

Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys He said the rate of cancer deaths has picked up in recent years because it takes time for cancer to develop and uranium mining is a relatively young industry.
I think it would be unwise to spread fear among the miners in the uranium industry, but it would also be very dishonest if the miners in the uranium industry did not know this was a hazard of their employment. I can remember working with miners in the gold mining industry and the silica chrome industry. They entered that industry not knowing that they could get silicosis through working in the mines. Over the years controls have been developed. The use of X-rays has been made mandatory, and though there is still some complaint that the results of such X-rays are not brought to the attention of miners early enough, it is generally conceded that there has been some advance made in the control and prevention of silicosis.
When I was in the uranium producing area a year or two ago I attended a conference arranged by management and labour to consider this subject. The position taken by management was that this was their field; that the government should not legislate, but that the industry itself should take whatever measures are possible to prevent health problems developing from exposure to uranium. At that time there was some difference even among management itself as to whether employees could demand a urinalysis which would give an indication of whether radiation had produced any significant harm to an individual.
It is my opinion that the government itself will have to take a lead in this respect. Failing that, we shall find enlightened management arranging for workers in exposed areas to be given a weekly urinalysis while other management will say "We do not think these tests are necessary; the radiation is not strong enough to hurt anybody". As I understand it, arrangements for tests were to be made by the mines themselves and not by a government agency which would permit employees to undergo tests at any time they felt to be necessary.
I believe the federal government has a duty to conduct an immediate survey into the results of uranium mining on the health of workers in the industry. We have been mining uranium in Eldorado for 15 or 20 years, and there are miners who have worked for that length of time in the industry. There are others who, while they have been employed in the industry for a shorter period, have undergone a more concentrated exposure. The federal government never did undertake as much work in the development of silicosis control as it should have. We have been puttering along with the research which was

done at McIntyre, aluminum dust therapy which many miners believe is ineffective and even harmful, because when you add any foreign substance to the lungs an additional risk is created since the lungs were not designed to handle foreign substances.
It seems to me that this is a national problem. I believe the minister is sympathetic, and if he wishes to give direction there is a great deal which can be done. In Germany research is still being carried out in the problem of silicosis in the mines. They are also continuing to pay pensions to those who have been exposed to an overdose of aluminum dust. We in this country may be guilty of behaving unscrupulously toward our miners when we arrange for aluminum dust to be pumped into their lungs. It is not taken voluntarily; it is compulsory, because the miners have to pass through the dryer where this dust is used. I suggest this practice is only as common as it is in Canada because the federal government has not carried out the work which it should have done in order to ascertain whether the use of this dust is advantageous.
I will agree that the incidence of silicosis has greatly decreased in the mining industry in Canada, but I think we must look at these figures not only in the light of the use of aluminum powder as a prophylactic treatment but in the light of increased ventilation in the mines and the increased use of water to keep down the dust. I suggest it is the duty of the minister in the light of all the facts now available to take another look at this question, because while it is true that fewer people are dying of silicosis there has been a great increase in death through heart diseases and other forms of diseases of the lungs. All these factors may be covering up the apparent decrease in the importance of the silicosis problem.
For these reasons I should like to ask the minister to comment on the work his department is doing with respect to the risks to health involved in uranium mining and, particularly, on the incidence of lung cancer which now appears to be forming an important part of this problem in the United States. The article to which I have referred says that in the United States both federal and state governments have set up controls to curb the rate of cancer among uranium miners. I wonder whether the minister has done any similar work in his department. The problem will be worse in Canada than it is in the United States since the concentration of uranium oxides is greater here than it is in the United States.


Jacques Flynn: May I interrupt the hon. member at this point. He has probably said

practically everything he wanted to say on these industrial diseases in relation to the operation of the mines, but I doubt whether the subject has anything to do with the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys. I think this aspect of mine operations will probably fall within the jurisdiction of the provinces. With regard to research, that might come within the responsibility of the Department of National Health and Welfare, but it seems to me the hon. member has not been discussing a question which is relevant to the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys.


William Arnold Peters: You are probably right, Mr. Chairman, in indicating that this is not part of the responsibility of the department of mines. It is probably safe to say it is not the function of any other branch of any other department of government, either. My suggestion is that this matter be brought under the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys. I have complained in the past that this department is more of a mapping service than anything else.
Mining is a very important subject, and in this particular context it is also a federal responsibility. We cannot say it belongs to the provinces, because the major jurisdiction in the uranium mining field has been brought under the federal authority. The sale of uranium is under federal control. Industrial relations with respect to uranium mines are under federal control. They have been brought under this jurisdiction and certified under federal government jurisdiction. Because of some of the wording of the security regulations the unions have been certified federally rather than provincially.
I make the suggestion, and the minister can reply. I believe it is safe to say that research in this field is not being done any place else. It should be done in this department, as I believe it is being done in the United States. We certainly think it is important enough to warrant some consideration by the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys. (Translation):


Mr. Martel:: Mr. Chairman, before adoption of the first item of the estimates of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys, I should like to make a few remarks, as this item concerns a field that is of particular concern to me and one with which my area has been closely connected ever since the Abitibi area was opened up, around 1912 or 1913.
1. 1961	5703
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
Of course, I have no intention of repeating everything that previous speakers said. I shall therefore limit my remarks to some matters of particular concern to my area, then I shall deal with a general problem, referred to this morning by previous speakers, and which, in my opinion, offers the key to a northward expansion such as we have not known for some years. I shall come back to this in a few moments.
Just now, I should like merely to deal with a problem which greatly concerns my area. It affects mining developments which are about to come more in the open, if I may be permitted this expression, developments which the minister underlined this morning when speaking about the Mattagami lake area.
To briefly sum up what is happening in this area, which was the subject of lengthy discussions in this house when we considered the bill concerning the construction of a railway branch, allow me to give a summary of the discussions that then took place here, as well as in the railway committee which made a detailed examination of the project.
In the Mattagami lake area there are considerable zinc deposits. There are also lesser deposits of copper, gold and silver, in addition to valuable metals contained in most of those deposits. The construction of a plant which will cost the Mattagami Lake Mines about $20 million is being contemplated. In addition to that manufacture, there is talk of the possible building of a zinc refinery at an estimated cost of $30 million.
As far as employment itself is concerned, that is the number of persons directly employed by the mine, it has been indicated that, at the start, the Mattagami Lake Mines will take on about 400 men. And if the zinc refinery is also erected there, this plant would give employment to 475 or 500 more men.
As a matter of fact, the company has already predicted that less than five years after the beginnings of the lake Mattagami area development, a town of some 5,000 would develop there. The village is still non-existent, but plans are already drawn for a town on Bell river, five miles east of the mine, that is five miles east of the place where mineral deposits were found a few years back.
The exploratory work performed in this new mining area brought about interesting results: less than five years ago, the area was almost unknown, but these discoveries
5704	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys have drawn the attention, not only of prospectors, but also of mining companies which are trying to establish themselves there.
I feel it my duty to emphasize that people in my district are keenly interested in the setting up of the zinc refinery to which I referred earlier.
I understand that the federal government may not have the last say in the granting of licences, and that, in fact, it does not deal directly with the development of natural resources which, according to our constitution, come under the jurisdiction of the provinces; nevertheless, it is surely in the interest of the federal government that the northern areas be developed, and that the ore be processed on the spot, which means that a refinery be set up where the ore is to be found, for this will also help to bring about industrial decentralization.
To give you an idea of what I have in mind, here is an example. A campaign is being waged to convince the authorities of the mining company that the construction of a zinc refinery in our area would be not only justifiable but most advantageous from all points of view.
Let us remember what happened a few years ago when the Quebec Lithium Corporation decided to build a lithium refinery at Rouses Point, in the state of New York. Later on, after having considered the matter thoroughly from the economic point of view, the corporation decided to build the plant on its mining property in the township of La Corne, in the vicinity of Barraute and Lan-drienne, two communities of my constituency. The corporation had therefore decided to build its refinery on its mining property in the township of La Corne rather than in Rouses Point. Now, the main reasons which led Quebec Lithium Corporation to take that decision was that the transportation of ore concentrates had become too expensive because of the great distance and also because a great proportion of the loads consisted of waste or just simply rock. Consequently, the money the company could have made by selling its by-products in the United States and in the more heavily industrialized centres like Montreal, could not compare with the savings it could make by processing its ore on the spot and by building its refinery on its mining property, in the township of La Corne.
I think that example is appropriate in view of the problem raised by the construction of a zinc refinery in my area. The Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys stated this morning that a large proportion of our ore except iron ore, of course, is already being processed on the spot in Canada before being exported. We should not


remain idle and rest on our laurels, however, because a lot remains to be done yet. Even if 60 per cent of our zinc is already being refined in Canada, that is certainly no reason to stop there.
If that project were carried out, following the example set by Quebec Lithium Corporation in northern Quebec, it would be advantageous for eastern Canada, not to mention the fact that the processing of our ore in Canada would be a step in the right direction. Of course, I would rather have that industry set up in Abitibi. I could give you other examples since a high percentage of other metals such as copper and nickel are refined in Canada, a situation which is beneficial to our economy. The construction of a nickel refinery at Thompson lake in northern Manitoba is also a striking example of what should be done to develop our natural resources in the north.
Before passing on to another subject, I should like to make a brief reference to an editorial published the other day in L'Echo Abitibien. It called the public's attention to this zinc refinery project, indicating that certain mining magnates were perhaps preparing to pull a fast one on the people in Abitibi.
Well, we do not want to let this pass unnoticed and we refuse to be done in. Therefore, I feel bound to point out this important matter so that our area may benefit from the setting up of this refinery.
I do not think I need insist in order to prove that it would be profitable economically to build this plant in our area. It has been mentioned time and again in the press, and in the railway committee when the building of a branch line through that area was being considered. It was pointed out then that it was essential to settle first the matter of selling the by-products. Of course, I have no figures here and I have not figured out the returns, but local, departmental and mining company economists could surely do it. Anyway, I do not believe that the profits from by-products would be enough to offset the cost of bringing over long distances to the refineries an ore made up mostly of waste. Besides, I believe that the Federation of Abitibi chambers of commerce has figured out the costs involved and will submit a report to provincial authorities.
Allow me to make a point on this subject. I wonder what would be the reaction of industrial towns located along the St. Lawrence

seaway or any waterway in our country, if we, in Abitibi, would call for the building of ironworks in our area. It is quite natural that those plants should be built on the seaway, in those very towns located along this country's waterways. Or rather, since zinc is being mined in our district, I do not see why it should be sent out of the area to be processed.
It would benefit this country and it would certainly be better than sending it to the United States, as has been done for several years. It would be well to have a refining plant in this country for metal produced in Canada. It would be ideal for our district and the whole northern area. To my mind, it would be an excellent thing to set up such a refining plant in Abitibi.
I shall now go on to something else which was mentioned by previous speakers, that is, assistance to the gold mines. Such assistance is essential. I believe that the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys did admit that the gold mining assistance act should be retained. Indeed, I commend him for having renewed that assistance. We may thus keep those industries working, not only in northern Quebec, but also in northern Ontario.
As suggested by one hon. member who spoke before, most parts of this country would benefit. In fact, several mining towns in northern Canada would again know an undescribable depression, they would become ghost towns, if that assistance were discontinued. This morning I heard an hon. member say that a policy of subsidies had been suggested in the United States to help discover new gold fields from the prospecting stage onward.
To my mind, it would also be a good and helpful thing for the gold mines to raise the price of gold. Such a step would have worldwide repercussions.
It is, indeed, a very complex issue. It has been mentioned that the price of gold was raised once before, but there has been no increase since 1933, whereas the prices of all other metals increased in proportion to the supply and demand. In the case of gold, the price was established by the American government and has remained at the same level ever since.
As hon. members who spoke before me pointed out this morning and this afternoon, the problem is becoming more and more acute, and even the United States have reached the point where they have to put
1, 1961	5705
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys gold on the list of the most wanted metals and even offer grants in view of discovering and developing new gold mines. Obviously, it all goes together.
Just a word now on the devaluation of the Canadian dollar. Today, the dollar does not have the same value as it had before the second world war, when for the last time, in 1933, the price of gold was raised. We all agree on that.
A short time ago, we learned that the rouble had been devaluated, as of January, 1961. Such a decision on the part of the U.S.S.R. places our U.S. neighbours in an impossible situation, as they will have to do the same if they want to compete with Russia on world markets. Having devaluated its currency, the U.S.S.R. can compete at ridiculously low prices with every western country, including Canada which is a great producer of raw materials. They can sell their products at giveaway prices.
Just this morning, in fact, the minister referred to a large production of asbestos in Russia and indicated that Canada would be faced with keen competition.
The efforts being made by Russia to capture world markets, particularly with regard to such raw materials as we produce, are a threat to the economy of North American democracies, and particularly Canada.
Reference was made this morning to raising the price of gold. It will be recalled there have been several raises in the past. Indeed, that was what prompted prospectors to search for gold in the Yukon and in Alaska in 1900, and before that in California and along the U.S. Pacific coast.
There was a readjustment in the price of gold in 1933, and it resulted in the opening up of northern Quebec, particularly in my own area of Malartic-Val d'Or-Cadillac-Rouyn. At that time there was a tremendous surge of activity. After the price of gold was readjusted, its value remained the same, both before and after the war and on until today, and this has had the effect of a devaluation. That is what the Americans are trying to avoid, but they will soon have to reach a decision on the problem.
I have just received a very interesting suggestion on that subject from a mining engineer. In view of its importance and for the information of the members of this house, I hope you will allow me, Mr. Chairman, to read it into the record. Perhaps it does not give every detail, but it does give a general
5706	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys idea of the problem and shows how attention should be paid to the price of gold. This mining engineer suggests that the price of gold be raised from its present level. That, I am sure, would stimulate this mining industry, as it did in 1933 when the price of gold was raised from $20 to $35. Here is the suggestion made to me:
(Text):
Re-Gold Situation
The price of gold in relation to currency is not important to the United States, as they do not produce gold, but is of utmost importance to Canada which is one of the three largest gold producing countries in the world.
Strange as it may sound, for every one dollar's worth of gold we produce, government takes in three dollars in taxes. This is better understood when it is realized that every one dollar's worth of gold produced means $12 to the economy of this country.
Thus, when we consider that we now produce $150 million per year, the taxes add up to $450 million per year.
If the gold mines were forced to close down, the government would not only lose this revenue but unemployment would increase far beyond the labour force directly employed by the mines.
Assuming that the dollar price of gold were doubled, on present production the taxes would also double.
Mr. Davies, who is a mining engineer and one of the pioneers of the northern district, says this in his letter:
But, an increase in the price of gold would more than double ounce production, thereby quadruplicating the present dollar production.
Further down in his letter he makes this suggestion:
The suggestion is that the Canadian government take the initiative by buying freshly mined gold at $70 per ounce and hold it until the world price is adjusted to this level.
The government would not only gain in increased revenue but would wind up owning the gold as well.
(Translation):
This suggestion was made to me by Mr. J. Fred Davies, mining engineer. He is anxious that northern areas be favoured in this connection. As happened in 1933, he believes this would be one of the ways to open up northern areas. Canadians would go out there in great numbers. We must not forget that with increased activity in the north there would be a rush to the north such as we have experienced in the past. No doubt that the rest of this country's economy would benefit by this initiative.
Mr. Chairman, before closing, I wish to raise another point. I mentioned it to the minister a few years ago, while his department's estimates were being discussed in the house. At that time, I asked him to have more surveys made by the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys in our province.
[Mr. Martel.l

I must say however, that we have to take into account the fact that the province of Quebec has its own department which also makes geological surveys across the province. However, in the last few years, several other areas have become accessible because of the preliminary geological surveys that have been made but, because of the information obtained by new mine developments, I believe it would be a good thing if the federal government, through its Department of Mines and Technical Surveys, studied and revised its geological surveys in the north, particularly in the areas which in these last few years have become accessible through the Chibougamau railway, which connects the Abitibi and Lake St. John regions, as well as in those areas connected by the new roads to natural resources of the area that the provincial government is building under the federal government program in this field.
Those new roads cover new territories where initial geological surveys were made some 20 or 30 years ago, and preliminary reports of which have been published. Since then, considerable work has been done. Several companies have already gathered additional information. The provincial government has probably some too.
The new department of resources of the province of Quebec, as it is called, is carrying on the work in those areas. However, I think it would be advantageous for the central government to make other geological surveys in those areas which are now more accessible and where prospectors and mining companies could attempt to make other discoveries.
In those northern areas, especially in my constituency, aeromagnetic surveys have already been done. I think it would be interesting to complete those aeromagnetic surveys, more commonly known in mining sectors as "airborne magnetic surveys".
I think, as I said, that those surveys should be supplemented by geological surveys on the spot, in order, first of all, to confirm the information obtained by air surveys, and then to give additional information to prospectors and mining companies. Such a service would help them open up northern areas, and, furthermore, would be very useful to the people of those areas. Those operations would also allow the settlement of the surplus population in the south of our country.
It takes a couple of years before the results of these technical surveys are put at the disposal of the prospectors.

I firmly believe that these surveys will be of a great help to prospection. In the north of the Abitibi area, towards James bay, there is a vast territory with infinite possibilities if, naturally, the increase in the price of gold, to which I referred earlier, becomes a reality. This area has hardly been prospected by a few prospectors, surveyors or mining engineers.
Therefore, there is no doubt that these technical surveys will have greatly contributed towards the development of those areas. (Text):	,


Mr. MacEwan:: Mr. Chairman, I have listened with interest to other hon. members who have spoken on the estimates of this department with regard to gold mining, and so forth. I shall, of course, reserve any remarks I have to make about coal mining until the dominion coal board item is before the committee. There is a matter which I should like to again bring briefly to the attention of the minister. He is well aware of this matter, because I have mentioned it to him outside of the house and in this house in other sessions. I refer to the retention and continuance of Pictou, Nova Scotia, which is in my constituency, as the base for hydrographic ships.
These two ships, presently the C.G.S. Cartier and the C.G.S. Acadia, have been based there for the last number of years. They have become an important part of the economy of the town and indeed of the area. Among other things, they provide work for the local shipyard during the winter season. Local suppliers have an opportunity to tender for supplies for the ships, and a large number of the crew of these two ships live in Pictou with their families and make an important contribution to the community. These people would suffer great hardship if they were forced to move because there is adequate housing in the town and they, of course, wish to remain there. In addition, there are repairs to some of the launches carried out on the ships as well as repairs to other equipment carried out in the town.
As I have said, these ships have actually become an industry for the town, and their removal would be a serious matter for the community. I realize that the department, and I commend them for it, are establishing an oceanographic institute at Bedford basin in Halifax county. I am glad to see that work on this institute is being carried out, because the institute will mean much to that area. I understand that upon completion of the institute, many specialists from the minister's department will be located there and will work within that area.
I believe it is the intention of the department to carry out oceanographic studies.
1, 1961
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys Indeed, oceanography today is a study extremely important to many departments of our government. The oceanographic work will be carried out year around whereas hydrography is for a limited season. With regard to the hydrographic services which are, of course, carried out on a smaller basis, I believe that the two ships at present in operation will be replaced by two other ships as they are getting older, one which is being constructed at this time at Halifax and another one, which as I understand it, is on the drawing board in the department but it is a smaller ship and can easily be based on the port of Pictou as are the Acadia and the Cartier. The hydrographic studies are carried out normally from May to October in each year and although the port of Pictou is usually icebound during the winter period, when the harbour opens up these ships would be available, whether the present ones or the ones to replace them, during the necessary months, for years to come.
As far as facilities are concerned, it perhaps will be pointed out also that because of the disastrous fire in 1959 the complete waterfront facilities in this place were wiped out by fire. That is true. But working through the Department of Public Works they have gone ahead and accelerated plans for restoring the facilities and I am glad to report that the quay wall in the area has been almost completely restored. I was there last week. It is a fine structure and one of the ships, the Acadia is alongside the quay wall at this time ready to go out on the service. There are adequate facilities in existence there to look after these ships. On the quay wall there is a new shed being constructed which could be easily used by the department. A contract in the amount of some $543,000 was let last week for the reconstruction of pier "C." This pier will provide many more facilities including a freight shed. There will be adequate facilities to look after these operations.
As I have said, the minister is well aware of these matters. However, I cannot repeat them too often in view of the extreme importance of retaining this hydrographic base in the port of Pictou. Based on the set-up and on the period needed for the studies and the facilities available and all the other matters which go beyond the normal scope, I would again reiterate and submit to the minister that this base be retained in that locality.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I just wish to say a few words on this first item of these estimates, as one who has always been interested in conservation of our natural resources, whether renewable or non-renewable. When one looks at the estimates of this department one realizes that this is the department of national health
5708	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys and welfare, so to speak, so far as the mining industry is concerned and that the minister is, shall I say, the apex or the Santa Claus of the mining industry. This department represents very clearly free enterprise supported by public funds.


Paul Comtois: I wish to tell the hon. member that I am awake.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: The minister refers to an incident earlier this session when I accused him of sleeping in the house. I apologize most sincerely. I did not realize that he was enjoying contemplation because he appeared to be completely inert.
I must bring to the attention of the committee the fact that this is a demonsration of, shall I say, the insincerities of the system under which we live and which is always preaching free enterprise. Here we find free enterprise bolstered to the hilt with public funds, and we are not opposing them under certain circumstances. However, I cannot resist bringing to the minister's attention that he is actually administering a form of socialist enterprise in some sections of the mining industry.
I now want to refer to the question of renewable natural resources or non-renewable natural resources and ask a few questions. An extremely interesting document came to my hand recently. It is entitled "Canada, A Nation of Economic Liars" by C. M. Campbell, mining engineer, Vancouver, B.C. I have read it with great interest. I am going to quote two paragraphs and then ask the minister a few questions because I think there is some truth in these paragraphs, particularly when one reads the history of the mining industry and the sort of buoyant statements made at the beginning of this century with respect to our resources of ore, coal and things of that sort and the actual situation that developed in certain areas. We now have ghost towns in British Columbia and other provinces where at one time we were told there was going to be unending prosperity. I read from page 14 of this booklet: under the heading "Is British Columbia against the Coyne Report?":
The immediate reaction in B.C. is against the Coyne report. One university of British Columbia economist says, "B.C. should back primary industry." Another says, "Primary industry could be Canada's salvation." Then why, after a century of primary industry, are we not saved?
I think that is a very pertinent remark.
A third says: "There has never been a country in the world that was not developed by an older country." As far as this province and Canada are concerned it has been a ease mainly of depletion by the U.S., and not development at all, and it has been done with our co-operation which, apparently will continue. We are, also, no younger than the three Pacific states to the south, in aggregate area smaller than this province,-


That is British Columbia.
-yet, based on primary and secondary industry, largely on their own initiative, they have a population, higher paid and more prosperous than ours, ten times as large as ours and as large as that of all Canada.
In the editorial column of a daily paper the statement is made that efforts to change the tide are "reminiscent of King Canute's futile gesture." "U.S. investment," we are also told, "has been the spark plug of our post-war prosperity... These are circumstances to which we have adapted ourselves and we should at times kneel in thanksgiving that they have been such pleasant circumstances." For any nation to be thankful when its prosperity is based on the depletion of its talents with no replacement, is hard to understand.
Needless to say we are appalled at this justification of the sell-out. That our students, 10,000 at the university alone, and our young men should become indoctrinated with these ideas is hard to believe. This dominion was founded as a member of the British empire, with a vision of a great future in it or its changing forms. Instead, as the preceding indicates, we seem content with the menial position of a Gibeonite in the American entourage.
I think there is some truth in the writer's analysis of the situation, although I think in some spots it is an exaggeration. However, he goes on to deal with these natural resources and at page 15 has this to say about the need for a realistic inventory of our mineral resources:
As far as minerals are concerned, and they are the basis of our modern civilization, it is imperative that we know just what we have and what are the probabilities and possibilities for more. But, before any tabulation is made, we must have a code of rules agreed to by the universities, the mining institute, professional engineers, and the government mining departments and-it must be followed. In this we are 50 years behind. It is essential that the atrocities that have brought disaster be eliminated. This will be a difficult task for trafficking in plausible lies is all about us.
In that connection he is referring to the mining industry. As far as the forest industry is concerned, the government of Canada in co-operation with the provincial government has undertaken a survey or an inventory of the forest resources of Canada. This survey has proved to be of great value and has provided information upon which can be based a logical and long term development of that industry. As far as I understand it, nothing has been attempted in that direction with respect to our mineral resources. I am one of those who believe something should be attempted in that direction. We are leaving it entirely to the big corporations, who in many cases get a monopoly of the ore in certain industries. They divide the country up among themselves and as far as governments and the people are concerned there is no, shall I say, elementary knowledge even as to our total resources of minerals and the period for which we may expect them to exist. We are always being told of the limitless resources in this and that field, and so on.

Having outlined my point of view in a few brief remarks, and the point of view of the gentleman who wrote this brief, I wish to ask the minister a few questions. I trust he will answer them when he replies to the remarks made on this item.
First, of all, has anything been attempted with respect to an inventory of mineral assets in Canada under the jurisdiction of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys? Has any effort been made to establish a code of rules or procedure with a view to taking an inventory of our mineral resources? Has the department undertaken an inventory of mineral resources even on a limited scale anywhere in Canada, either under its own steam, shall I say, or in co-operation with any province? If so, where were these inventories taken. If any inventories have been taken, does the minister consider them reliable? Would the minister say that he stands behind information given in documents published by the federal government as to the reserves of minerals in Canada at this time? In minerals I also include coal. Does the minister think this information can be taken as reliable by the Canadian people?
I hope the minister will give the committee any other information he can with respect to any consideration his department has given this question of getting reliable information regarding our total natural resources. That is the only basis upon which I think we can plan the development of these resources in the future. The minister knows that the forestry inventory has been a great help to the forest industry, and it will be a continuing inventory. It will be the basis for the planning and policies of provincial governments and private industry.
I am very interested to know whether there has been any discussion on this subject or any moves in this direction under the leadership of the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys or on the part of any provincial government, to his knowledge.


Mr. Kindi:: Mr. Chairman, I rise at this time to say a few words on this extremely important topic about which several hon. members have already spoken. I have listened with a great deal of interest to the speeches of those who have preceded me on this subject.
I was particularly interested this morning in listening to the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys giving statistics showing the natural resources which are available in this country. One of the figures which impressed me particularly was the 15 per cent increase in the proven reserves of oil and gas in western Canada. In addition to the resources which we already have in this
1, 1961	5709
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys field this is a tremendous and astounding increase. It naturally leads me to raise the question as to the speed with which private industry with government assistance is developing and taking full advantage of these natural resources.
First of all I look at markets. With regard to the question of markets for these mineral resources-and after all one is inseparable from the other-if we discover these resources we must certainly find some way in which to manufacture them into finished products and then to market the manufactured product. We must either manufacture the raw material in Canada or, if we cannot do that, find markets for the raw material elsewhere.
I for one favour the proposition of manufacturing and starting industry in Canada as far as possible. I do not wish to deal with the various aspects of markets for raw material in Canada or abroad. That may be a subject which can be discussed at greater length on some future occasion. However, at this time I do wish to say a word or two about industrialization, because industrialization in western Canada is near to my heart. It is one of the things to which I have given a tremendous amount of attention. As an economist I have assisted in the location of a number of industries in western Canada for the purpose of developing the natural resources there. Therefore I feel that what we need is industry in western Canada to develop our natural resources.
In other words, we all know that private industry is doing a good job in the development of these natural resources, but I say that in relation to the tremendous quantities that are there to be developed, private industry is developing them at a snails' pace. The time is not far in the future when we should look critically at the rate at which these natural resources are being developed. With regard to government assistance in the form of capital to assist the development of these resources, I believe the time has come when this type of assistance should be given. We need more corporations such as Polymer corporation in the west.
When I suggest that social capital should be used for the development of industry the boys over in the comer may say, "That is socialization". Certainly it is one form of socialization, but it has been indulged in for years by governments of this country and other countries. It did not make them socialist. These hon. members have no prior claim on -the words "socialism" or "social". As a matter of fact, if you take socialism as it is taught by the orthodox socialist, I agree with Stephen Leacock who once said:
5710	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
Socialism would work only in heaven, where they don't need it, and in hell, where they have it already.
What we want in Canada is co-operation between governments and private enterprise to the end that industry can achieve maximum development, and we want socialism wherever it will work best. That is the very pattern under which we have been developing our resources for years. I only need to refer to Polymer corporation, and I could name many other crown corporations which have been set up for the development of our resources. We need more of them. There is nothing new about that; it is simply a step forward and a method of achieving what is perhaps too risky as far as private capital is concerned and what private enterprise will not undertake.
I firmly believe that in the west we need decentralization of industry. I should like to see industries in some of the small towns, for example, in southern Alberta there is an abundance of natural gas, coal, iron and other resources waiting to be developed. These towns could support industries.
I would rather see development of industry take place in 50 good rural towns in Alberta than a high concentration of development in two big cities. I should like to see in southern Alberta towns like High River, Nanton, Vulcan, Pincher Creek, Fort Macleod and towns in the Crowsnest pass obtain industries appropriate to their areas instead of having all these industries concentrated in Calgary or Edmonton. I feel that with proper consideration, decentralization and a certain amount of guidance, this development could take place. It is within our grasp. It is surely coming. All I am saying is that we should speed it up and give to the people in western Canada the quick development of natural resources for which they have the potential in terms of hydrocarbons and other raw materials.
I do not plan to speak at greater length on the general topic of minerals and their development at this time. I shall speak again on the coal board item when that subject comes up. So, for now, I place the floor at the disposal of the chairman.
(Translation):


Paul Comtois: Mr. Chairman, I should like now to answer the various questions put to me since I made my opening remarks this morning.
First, I wish to thank the hon. member for Villeneuve (Mr. Dumas) for his praise of the employees of my department. I wish to assure him that we do our utmost to speed up the publication of our reports, particularly the annual report on our activities. However,


there are sometimes unavoidable delays because, as we all know, there is a lot of compilation to do, with the result that there are those delays which are beyond our control. However, we do our utmost to prevent what might become an abnormal delay.
I am also aware, as the hon. member for Villeneuve indicated, that the gold mining assistance, under its present form, is not sufficient to assure the adequate protection of this industry in the future.
It is evident that in amending the legislation we do not claim to cure the problem definitely.
Since the hon. member for Villeneuve mentioned it, I might add a few words on the United States policy concerning assistance to gold mines. I have here an explanation of the system developed in the United States. It reads as follows;
(Text):
The United States minerals exploration agency which makes assistance available for exploration for certain strategic minerals in addition, recently, to gold and silver, provides for the advance of small sums of money under certain conditions. One of these conditions defines the amount of exploration which must be done before an advance is granted. Another provides for the submission of evidence that traditional methods of finance are not available for the project. Another provides for the return of the sums advanced upon the attainment of production. The agency does not finance general exploration.
In Canada, prospectors who meet the conditions of the minerals exploration act have generally little difficulty in obtaining funds for further exploration and development. Our Income Tax Act provides very good incentives to the mineral industry, incentives which surpass those of any other country in the world, including the United States. I know the hon. member will agree with my comment regarding the usefulness of the minerals exploration act.
(Translation):
I wish to thank the hon. member for his remarks and suggestions, and to tell him that all his proposals will be studied carefully by the officials of my department.
(Text):
The hon. member for Timiskaming mentioned the apparent discrepancy between the potential represented by our deposits of iron ore and the resources which are being exploited at the present time. I should like to make it clear that Canada is now in a highly competitive situation in international iron ore markets, and for some years to come we must expect that only such of our deposits

as are most economically situated and easily workable will be put into production.
The hon. member also referred to cobalt. I say with regard to that subject that the government has no program of mineral stockpiling. It does, however, have small stockpiles of tin, cobalt and antimony built up during the Korea emergency in the early fifties. The stockpiles of these three metals are the responsibility of my colleague the Minister of Defence Production. My department acts only in a technical advisory capacity to that department.
The hon. member for Timiskaming also mentioned the matter of uranium. The only concern of my department with regard to that subject is with research and the sharing of economic studies with other departments or agencies of the government. I would suggest to the hon. member that he direct his questions to my colleague the Minister of Trade and Commerce when his estimates are before the committee. He would be able to supply information in greater detail with regard to uranium.
The hon. member for Chapleau also spoke. (Translation):
And, as he made his speech in French, I will reply in that language.
First of all, I can assure him that the government will be pleased to see a zinc refinery being set up in the province of Quebec. If my department or the government can help in any way in the carrying out of that project, we will certainly be glad to do so, for this is fully in accordance with the policy of this government for the processing of ore within our frontiers.
(Text):
The hon. member for Pictou said something about his own district, particularly about his own constituency, and said he would like to see our ships anchored at Pictou. I assure the hon. member that I will give serious consideration to his request that we should continue to berth some of our ships there. However, as the hon. member knows, we are planning to berth all our ships at the site of the Bedford institute. This was part of our project two years ago, as was explained last year. This project is now in the process of realization. As I mentioned this morning, the Bedford institute of oceanography will be a great improvement as far as my department is concerned. At the outset about 300 or 400 members of our staff of scientists, clerks and so forth will be transferred to permanent quarters there. The Bedford institute will be situated in Dartmouth. Our planning is dictated by the economic aspect of our operation. We think it will be much more efficient to start with this system and in
1, 1961	5711
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys centralizing our operations and by having our ships on the east coast, and so forth.
However, I assure the hon. member that we will give our most sympathetic consideration to his request. We will do everything we can in that regard.
The hon. member for Kootenay West-


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I am awake.


Paul Comtois: -will listen to Santa Claus.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Willingly.


Paul Comtois: I am not Santa Claus; I am not old enough for that. In some quarters, sometimes in the gold mining districts and in other places where not gold but other minerals are subsidized, our money is very well received.
In reply to the question of the hon. member, I wish to say that the mineral resources division of my department has under constant compilation and revision a catalogue of all our mineral deposits in Canada. I do not know whether the hon. member is aware of this, but the catalogue is available and he can have it at any time. It is not published, but we have the information on cards and the hon. member and everybody else can get full information from our department.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Excuse me; does the minister mean by "catalogue" that there is an estimate of the reserves of mineral resources?


Paul Comtois: I will inform the hon. member, but I must remind him that whereas it is very easy to count the trees in the Koote-nays or in the province of British Columbia, it is not easy to find out how many billion tons of every kind of mineral we have in Canada. It is not an easy job and I am sure the hon. member understands that. This is not an easy program to undertake but nevertheless we are cataloguing the findings of the companies and of the industry. I agree, if it could be done in a practical way it would be a good thing, but once again I say it is much easier to count the fir trees of British Columbia than it is to assess the potential minerals of this country such as iron ore, gold, silver, copper, lead, zinc and so forth. It is not easy to find out what is underground even with our very capable staff, our surveyors, our inspectors and our geologists. It is not very easy to find out precisely in accurate figures the potential mineral wealth of this country. As I said a minute ago, we have an inventory of our known resources, but so far as the unknown resources are concerned we have no knowledge at all.
As my last words on the subject may I say one might assess the mineral potential of an area, but one cannot assess the mineral reserves until they are proven by exploration or development. The suggestion of the hon. member is not a bad one, but as far as
5712	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys its being practical, or something that can be undertaken in a short time, that is quite a different proposition. It would represent a considerable undertaking. That is all I have to say on the questions raised.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I want to thank the minister for the information, I am glad to know that a catalogue is being undertaken of known reserves. I am a very practical person, sir. I realize the difference between counting trees and assessing reserves under the ground, but I should be very glad to get a copy of that catalogue of known mineral reserves in Canada.


Paul Comtois: May I remind the hon. member that this cataloguing of our mineral reserves was started in 1917 under a Tory government.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
204. Explosives Act administration, $111,648.
Armand Dumas: Mr. Chairman, on item 204- (Translation):
-could the minister tell the committee whether individuals or companies have asked his department to increase the load of explosives that trucks are allowed to carry under the Explosives Act?


Paul Comtois: Could the hon. member repeat his question as I was disturbed by the messenger?


Armand Dumas: Could the minister tell the committee whether individuals or companies have made representations to him or to his department in order to get an increase in the permissible load for trucks with a special permit to carry explosives?


Paul Comtois: Mr. Chairman, I looked into that question, some time ago. During the year representations have come from various regions of the country but particularly from regions where explosives are hauled long distances.
As you know, Mr. Chairman, the present load limit is ten thousand pounds, that is five tons, and we were asked to raise it. We received all kinds of representations on that matter. No need to say that those representations came from transport companies and not from companies which buy the explosives. Of course, the transport companies would like to save time and money, by increasing their truck loads of dynamite or explosives. We know that our present roads


can carry very heavy loads and that there is no limit to the ambitions of some owners of those huge vans that can haul about the same load as a freight car. Unfortunately, we have to resist such requests because, everything being considered, it would be extremely dangerous to allow an increase, since it cannot be known exactly where the trucks will pass. As a matter of fact, a reckless driver might go through a village and an explosion might happen. It is easy to imagine the damage that could follow and how we would be blamed for having allowed a truck to be overloaded. For example last year-I think it was on highway No. 8-a Montreal truck driver was carrying explosives and, doing so, was violating the regulations since his vehicle was not a suitable one for such a load. While on the road, the truck caught fire. Fortunately the driver was warned in time. He jumped off his truck, and immediately the explosion occurred, but without killing anyone. However, the nearest house, two acres away, and the farmer's barn were moved about two feet by the blast. One can therefore imagine what would happen should such an explosion occur in a village.
However, we realize that in some circumstances-in western Canada, for example, in the area of the hon. member for Villeneuve, in the Abitibi area-there might be some special cases which could be considered where an increase could eventually be permitted.
However, this is a matter which comes more properly under provincial jurisdiction.
I understand that a statute was adopted many years ago by the federal government and was never questioned.
I do not know whether the provinces are reluctant to take up such an explosive subject, but in any case the statute has remained unchanged. Therefore, if it involves legislation which normally comes under the provinces, it could not be amended without an agreement with the provinces, which is quite a complicated process, particularly if the provinces, while letting the legislation operate as it does, are prepared to recommend the increase of the permissible load. But I feel the matter could be settled to the satisfaction of those who are asking for changes in the legislation.
Does that answer the hon. member's question?


Armand Dumas: Yes, Mr. Chairman.

(Text):
I understand it is a question of security and the minister is satisfied that the department cannot very well permit an increase in the permissible load on trucks transporting explosives.


Paul Comtois: That is right.


Armand Dumas: I understand that, and we know that the question of security is very important. However, in my district there are long distances to be travelled and I suggest that in order to make it economical special permits should sometimes be granted. However, I am not going to insist on that. As the minister has said, if a province feels that something should be done it can get in touch with the department and ask that the permissible load be increased.


Paul Comtois: I should say that certain provinces would like the federal government to continue to control security. Other provinces, like the province of Alberta, would like to pass an act giving them authority over this matter. Alberta has contested the validity of the federal act regarding this matter. As you can see, Mr. Chairman, this is a very delicate problem, but the initiative so far as amendments are concerned should come from the provinces and there should be some cooperation or understanding between the provinces and the federal government.


Mr. Aiken:: I should like to ask the minister two questions on this subject. First, has there been any change in the policy since the affairs of the department were examined by the standing committee on mines, forests and waters some two years ago? Second, is there any authority in the act to grant a special permit in special cases or is the limit absolute?


Paul Comtois: The answer to the first question is that there has been no change. As far as the second question is concerned, we can amend the regulations provided sound reasons and facts are presented to us for doing so. The regulations can be amended at any time if serious reasons are advanced that justify doing so.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Surveys and mapping branch-
207. Branch administration including a grant of $1,000 to the Canaaian institute of surveying and photogrammetry, $171,588.
Herbert Wilfred Herridge: This item has to do with surveys and mapping. Because of the increased traffic of pleasure craft and tugs for towing on the Columbia river between the international boundary and Revelstoke and because of the number of boats that have lost propellers or have become stranded on
1. 1961	5713
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys sand bars, particularly between Arrowhead and Revelstoke and in the narrows between the upper and lower Arrow lakes, I suggested some three years ago that it would be a good idea for the department to draw up a simple chart that could be sold to persons at the customs office at Trail for $1 to cover the cost so that they would have a chart to use in proceeding in Canadian waters as far north as Revelstoke. At the time the minister informed me that his department was very busy but that they would give the matter consideration.
I urge the minister to see what can be done in that connection because this traffic is increasing very rapidly. Such boats now come from Portland and the mouth of the Columbia. They are transported around Grand Coulee and Bonneville dams on low beds. To indicate the extent of the traffic, may I point out that 27 of these pleasure craft called at my son-in-law's home over one week end last year and over 100 came by during that period. The local people know the waters but quite a number of these boat owners run into minor difficulties because of their lack of knowledge of the channels and so on.


Paul Comtois: I will certainly look into the matter and give the hon. member some information privately as soon as I can.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
208. Geodetic survey of Canada, $935,434. (Translation):
Armand Dumas: With regard to the geodetic surveys carried out under the supervision of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys, could the minister tell the committee how many teams and men will be employed in the summer of 1961?


Paul Comtois: Mr. Chairman, in the year 1961-1962, nine groups will be employed at triangulation work, four at astronomy and basic lines, and five at accuracy surveying work.
In all, the geodetic service includes 79 persons.
(Text):
Canadian hydrographic service-[DOT]
212. Administration, operation and maintenance including Canada's fee for membership in the international hydrographic bureau, $5,370,081.
(Translation):


Armand Dumas: Mr. Chairman, I am not sure whether the minister told us this morning that a new ship, the Maxwell, was in operation at present or would be during the summer.


Paul Comtois: I believe that we will have this ship in operation at the end of the season. It is now being built. We hope it will be ready to operate in the fall.
5714	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
Since we are dealing with ships I must say that the Hudson, for which a contract of about $7 million was awarded last year, is now under construction in the shipyard of the St. John Dry Dock Company, St. John, N.B., which was the lowest tenderer.
There were delays caused by a strike. I hope that it will be settled in the near future, if it is not already.
I am told that work has resumed. I see now that the hon. member for Gloucester (Mr. Robichaud) is telling me that the work has resumed. I am very happy to know that, especially since the department, on account of the delay brought about the strike, could not have carried out the same plans next year, had the strike lasted.
This vessel will probably be completed by the end of 1962.
We already have the Baffin, one of the finest hydrographic ships that can be found anywhere in the world.
However, I believe that the Hudson, being a more modern vessel, will be even more efficient than the Baffin.


Armand Dumas: I understood the minister to say this morning that the Hudson would be put into operation in 1962.
I should now like to know whether other vessels are under construction at the present time.


Paul Comtois: We do not have any other vessel under construction, but we plan to replace three vessels-and ship designers are presently working on this project-which are not necessarily out of use, but which are not adequate any more for the growing needs of the department.


Armand Dumas: And will these vessels be used for hydrographic purposes?


Paul Comtois: Certainly.
(Text):


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Geological survey of Canada-
218. Administration, operation and maintenance including Canada's share of the cost of the geological liaison office, British commonwealth scientific conference, London, England, and $75,000 for grants in aid of geological research in Canadian universities, $4,937,624.
(Translation):
Armand Dumas: Mr. Chairman, on February 21, 1961, the minister had a news release published announcing that the federal and provincial governments were to undertake extended aeromagnetic work programs.
I understand these projects are to be spread over a number of years and their cost will be


shared by the federal and provincial governments.
I am told that $12 million have been earmarked for such surveys in the provinces, and $6 million in the Yukon and Northwest Territories.
Could the minister tell the committee what amount will be spent this year and how it will be divided as between the federal government and the provinces?
What is the amount the department expects to spend in the Yukon and the Northwest Territories?


Paul Comtois: As far as these aeromagnetic projects are concerned, we have signed agreements with two provinces, Ontario and Saskatchewan.
We are going to spend $300,000 in Ontario this year, on a sharing basis with the provincial government.
We have recently entered an agreement with Saskatchewan. As a matter of fact, it was yesterday I think that I put my signature to a document to be submitted to the minister of mines in Saskatchewan, Mr. Brockelbank. It provides for an expenditure of $300,000 to be shared on an equal basis by the federal and the provincial governments.
In the Yukon, we are going to spend $150,000 to this effect this year. Of course, the whole amount will be supported by the department, since there is no possibility of agreement with a non-existent province.


Armand Dumas: And the Northwest Territories?


Paul Comtois: That is for the Yukon and the Northwest Territories.


Armand Dumas: Is the minister negotiating with other provinces in order to come to some agreement with regard to the carrying out of projects throughout the country, in all provinces concerned?


Paul Comtois: I must say, Mr. Chairman, that all provinces where the pre-Cambrian is found have let us know that they favoured the project.
As a matter of fact, the province of Ontario is ready to provide a certain sum in its estimates, and so is Saskatchewan.
The other provinces which are interested in coming into the project assured us that next year, they would earmark the necessary amount of money for carrying out the program.
This year, there are two provinces, as well as the Yukon and the Northwest Territories. Next year, we expect that other provinces will join the first group and take part in this project.

It has been pointed out to me that I spoke of the pre-Cambrian. The hon. member for Villeneuve knows that I made a mistake. I meant the Canadian shield.
(Text):


Armand Dumas: I do not want to delay the item, Mr. Chairman, but I noticed the subventions to universities have been increased from $50,000 to $75,000. This is a very good thing. Perhaps the minister can tell us how the amount is being spent this year. Is it $50,000 or $75,000 this year?


Paul Comtois: It is $75,000, and we are
now in the new fiscal year.


Armand Dumas: I wonder if it would be much trouble for the minister to tell us the amount for each university? I believe these amounts are distributed between various universities. Has the minister these figures available?


Paul Comtois: I can give only the figures for last year. The figures for this year are under preparation and I do not have them now.	i


Armand Dumas: Well, I have the figures for last year, so I am not going to impose on the minister by asking him to repeat them.


Paul Comtois: I do not have the figures for this year because we are at the beginning of the fiscal year.


Armand Dumas: That is what I wanted to know. I believe the department deserves credit for this scheme because through these studies that are done by the different universities we are gaining much at very little cost. I am certainly happy to see that the amount has been increased from $50,000 to $75,000.
Can the minister tell the committee if Laval University have made application for a grant and whether or not they have qualified to obtain a grant under this provision?


Paul Comtois: Yes. They are qualified and they have applied.


Armand Dumas: Was any amount granted to Laval University last year?


Paul Comtois: No. No amount was granted last year. It is for this year.


Armand Dumas: Would that be the first year Laval have made application for such a grant?


Paul Comtois: I think they had something previously, but I am not sure. I could give the hon. member an answer when I have the information.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Can the minister inform the committee how many parties will be in the
1, 1961	5715
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys field in British Columbia this year and where they will be or what areas they will be working in under this vote?


Paul Comtois: My department yesterday issued a press release giving full details about the various parties we have in the field. If the hon. member wishes to have the details right now, I can read them. However, this release is available. I will send him a copy right away.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I thank the minister and I shall be glad to receive a copy.


Paul Comtois: I may say that the first province mentioned in the list is British Columbia.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: That is quite normal.


Mr. Tucker:: May I ask the minister whether the release covers all provinces?


Paul Comtois: Yes. We have 102 field parties. The release covers all provinces. Any hon. member can have a copy of the press release. Everything concerning each province is indicated there.


Armand Dumas: I understand that last year the department carried out a special survey here in the city of Ottawa and that, after having completed the survey, it published a geological map showing the formation of the ground beneath the city of Ottawa. I have looked at the map and I can say that it is a very interesting one. There is no doubt that it will be extremely useful to a great number of people here in the city of Ottawa. I am just wondering whether the department intends to carry out the same work in the city of Hull, for instance. Hull is close to Ottawa; it is part of the national capital; and it might be a good idea if the department would carry out a survey beneath the city of Hull and the neighbouring villages.


Paul Comtois: Yes. We will extend this work to the city of Hull and the district across the river in the province of Quebec.


Armand Dumas: I am very pleased to hear that. I am told that the survey is going to be tremendously useful here in Ottawa. There is no doubt that our friends in Hull will be glad to hear that the department will do the same kind of work there so that contractors will be on the same basis in both cities, having regard to the fact that this territory is included in the national capital.


Mr. Fisher:: On the estimates of the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources I tried to get from the minister some information about one of those roads that had been plotted and designed by his predecessor. I refer to one that ran from somewhere north
5716	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys of lake Nipigon-there is a dotted line on several maps indicating it was provisional- all the way up to northern Manitoba near Hudson bay.
According to the information that was filed showing the correspondence between the provincial government of Ontario and the federal government the actual site or route of the road was in abeyance until a number of surveys, including aeromagnetic and geologic surveys, had taken place. I wonder whether the minister can give me any indication as to what activity is being carried on in his department in that particular stretch that bears upon this whole road idea?
I know that the two departments co-operate and have an intimate liaison. We in that part of the country would like to know when it is likely that some kind of road site will be arrived at between the provincial government and these two government agencies, one of which the minister represents. If he could fill me in as to how the surveys are going, when they are likely to be completed and whether there is any indication yet as to what recommendations his department is going to make as to the best site of the road in order to take advantage of the mineral possibilities in that great stretch, I should be glad if he would do so. I repeat again that I have reference to this projected road that would run from north of lake Nipigon slashing northwest across the Patricia district and touching up near Hudson bay over the border of Manitoba or just about the border of Manitoba. It is an area which at the present time has almost no road facilities at all.


Paul Comtois: It is not very easy to answer that question right now. Could that question be asked at some other time by the hon. member? The information must be obtained within my department and through the department of northern affairs. We give advice but the real information he wishes to secure could be obtained more easily and more accurately through the northern affairs department.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I am little bit fed up with the fact that the department of northern affairs which is part of the vision has kept projecting this road as a dotted line. It looks good when you have a map of Canada in front of you and there right across the centre of it you have this dotted line of this projected road that would have a mileage of something between 600 and 800. All I can determine about the road is that plans for it are completely up in the air unless this minister's department reports and gives some indication as to where the road should go. If the minister would assure me that he will send me the information

relating to his department's activities in connection with this project so that I can turn to the minister of northern affairs and say, "Look, take the dotted lines off" or "Let us put this away in the sack for four or five years", I would appreciate it very much. I am quite willing to forget about the matter now if the minister will give me the assurance that he will provide information as to what his department is actually doing. I know the minister appreciates the fact that, when it comes to projects for the future, people can get very woolly. I should like to have something to tell the people in my area about this great dream.


Paul Comtois: I must repeat that my department gives advice to the department of northern affairs. They may or may not accept our recommendation. They may make use of it. But we have no other authority than that. I can assure the hon. member that I will do my best to give him the information he requires and whatever further details are available. Also, we will communicate with the other department.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Mines branch-
220. Administration, operation and maintenance. $4,480,543.
Mr. Best:: Mr. Chairman, I would like to make some brief remarks on item 220, which covers an amount of some $4| million for administration, operation and maintenance of the mines branch of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys.
I want to confine my remarks solely to studies carried on at present in the department and in its mines branch on uranium, uranium ores, extractive methods applied to such ores and new studies now going on into the problem of alternative uses of uranium in Canada.
We all know the problems faced by our uranium mines and their workers in this regard. As the demand for this mineral for defence purposes has diminished it has become increasingly important to search for other uses for uranium. Its use in nuclear power reactors for electricity production is now beginning in Canada, but some years will pass before large quantities are utilized here. In the annual report of the department for the calendar year 1958 we note that on page 62, under the heading "Radioactivity", there are references to problems in uranium ore treatment. In the 1959 annual report of the department, on pages 42 and 43, there are considerably more extensive references to uranium, but still largely confined to the treatment of ores in co-operation with private mining companies.


While this work is indeed important in order to make these companies in the years ahead more economic and competitive with uranium producers in other countries, I feel we are nevertheless interested in Canada- there has been some indication of this in the evidence given before the research committee of the house-that further stimulus should be given to research into finding completely different uses of uranium itself.
In the last paragraph on page 44 of the annual report of the department for 1959 there is a reference to the liaison between the mines branch of the department and the uranium industry, largely through the Canadian uranium producers metallurgical committee, as it is called, and also with the representatives of Eldorado Mining and Refining Limited.
Conventional procedures of uranium recovery and their study by the mines branch are indeed important, but Dr. John Convey, the director of this branch, has pointed out on various occasions that additional personnel could be used by this branch for a study of alternative uses of uranium. Such a study could take place in various fields, and more technical experts are urgently needed to carry out this work.
We gather that perhaps half a dozen individuals are at present working in the mines branch in co-operation with Chalk river and Atomic Energy of Canada in the development of reactor materials, for instance. This is one field. It has been pointed out in the past that various officials and members of the mines branch have worked in the field of uranium and radioactivity in developing methods of safely handling radioactive materials. There are possibly some 18 people in this group at present in the mines branch.
Nevertheless there does appear to be a lack of assistance, whether it be in terms of finance, or availability of personnel, for looking into other uses of uranium, and the government should examine this in detail. There have been indications of many useful fields here. There is the combining of uranium with such elements as sulphur, carbon, hydrogen and nitrogen present in steel, which can then impart to steel qualities of strength and wearing ability which are most useful.
This has been called the scavenging use or activity of uranium in steel and it is one which has been coming to the fore very much in recent months and years. This was tried some 30 or more years ago, I understand, by our mines branch; I refer to the addition of uranium to iron and steel. But I would think much further work could now be done in this area in co-operation with private companies in the steel industry across Canada. The qualities of steel, its fatigue strength and
1, 1961	5717
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys other such properties, could very possibly be improved. If it came about that an appreciable percentage of our steel production in Canada could incorporate one, two or more pounds of uranium per ton it could go a definite distance toward solving some of the problems of our uranium mining production and would provide employment in various areas of Canada.
The use of uranium in alloy steels for withstanding high pressure and high temperature in jet engines, and in various types of pipe, have been pointed out and could be examined in considerably greater detail. In addition, I imagine the mines branch is examining the addition of uranium to non-ferrous metals, and presumably additional personnel could be used here. More basic research should be done, and co-operative work extended testing uranium for catalytic work, shielding, underplating, and so on.
In sum total, Mr. Chairman, while we have seen in Canada in recent months a definite increase in activity in solving our problems in the uranium industry through the creation of such bodies as the Canadian uranium research foundation, and the Canadian nuclear association just a week or so ago, I do feel that our government can assist, through the mines branch and through its able director, Dr. Convey, in placing additional personnel and additional funds, perhaps as research grants to universities across Canada or directly in the branch itself, into the solving of this problem of uranium costs, and second, alternative uses of this mineral in the very wide field of possible applications which now lie before us. Uranium mines and the people they employ are a vital sector of our economy, and it is to be hoped that increased efforts by the companies themselves, and the governments involved, will continually improve the prospects for the peaceful use of this mineral.


William Arnold Peters: Mr. Chairman, I should like to inquire about several matters that we have discussed in the past, and raise one or two new ones. One question is this: are there now engineers in this department who are qualified to check the books, and particularly the physical conditions of gold mines, to see that the mines are complying with the requirements of the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act?
I hope that this year the minister will be in a position to tell us that there is at least one qualified official of the mines branch who can do this and his department does not have to rely upon some other department to provide people for this work. We are spending considerable money in this field and I think something should be done to ensure
5718	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys that we are getting an honest report from the mines. This can be done only if a physical examination is undertaken by the department.
I was interested in the remarks of the previous speaker with regard to the research carried on in the uranium industry. I should like to ask the minister whether any consideration is being given to increasing the amount of research in order to make it possible for the silver industry in northern Ontario to establish mills. They would like this to be under impartial auspices, if possible.
Has any consideration been given to carrying out research which will enable the silver industry in Ontario to establish plants which would make it possible to process the metal in this country instead of being sent to the United States for processing? Under the present system Canadian silver is smelted in the United States and, when, as sometimes happens, those in a silver producing area wish to buy the finished product they must pay the high rate charged in respect of the refining operation. If some research were carried out as the result of which it were possible to establish a mill to refine these concentrates in the Cobalt area-I have in mind a process which would prove economic in operation bearing in mind the volume of metal to be dealt with-there would be obvious advantages, not only in the lower price of the finished product but in employment. I should like to know what work is being done in this connection, bearing in mind the obvious advantage which would attach to the Canadian mint being able to acquire its refined silver from a Canadian source instead of having to buy the processed metal elsewhere.


Paul Comtois: The federal and provincial governments have been jointly studying the possibility of a silver refinery being established in the Cobalt area. Both governments have discussed the matter with the industry but up to the present no conclusion or solution has been reached. However, I understand that studies are still going on and I hope that one day some decision may be reached. I am sorry that I cannot give the hon. member more detail.


William Arnold Peters: I understand that the Deloro smelting company has closed down its operations and that the smelter previously operated just south of Cobalt could, with a small addition, be converted into a refinery which would be able to process silver. I wonder if the federal government would consider giving some technical and engineering advice to the industry so that a smelting operation could be undertaken in this area. I have
	. J li m

talked with one or two of the mine owners and with one or two consulting engineers who are interested in this project. They have a fear-one which I think is well grounded -that such a plant should not be developed by one of the mining companies alone, for the simple reason that none of these companies trust each other implicitly. They would like the mill to be operated on an impartial basis. One or two of the firms are almost large enough to undertake a development of this type without assistance from others in the industry, but the companies would much prefer to see it established under independent auspices.
I believe the processing of nickel and uranium is carried out under licence. Most of the gold mines operate refineries of their own, I believe the final steps in refining are carried out in the mint itself. I was wondering if the department had any technical advice which it could give these mining companies in the Cobalt area which would assist them if they were willing to set up an independent company using the refinery which is already in existence in Cobalt. Up to the present we have no such refinery in Canada. The project would mean the employment of between 20 to 30 people and it would also mean that the Canadian mint, or the mine, whichever it might be, would get the advantage of the two or three dollars an ounce which now has to be paid on account of the refining being done in the United States.


Paul Comtois: I can assure the hon. member that my department is ready at any time to give technical information and economic advice to anyone who has a project in mind for the processing of silver, cobalt or other minerals. I am sure that if the studies and advice offer some possibility of success the industry will jump at the opportunity presented. We are ready to do anything that may be required or asked for.


William Arnold Peters: Can the minister say if the department now has engineers reponsible for checking the physical requirements which are specified in the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act in so far as responsibility falls under the jurisdiction of the mines branch?


Paul Comtois: Once again I wish to tell the hon. member that the inspection of gold mines is undertaken by the mineral resources division, not by the mines branch. This has been found the best way of doing things. It is just as efficient as any other system. We have two engineers who visit the mines every year. We give every possible attention to this matter and, once again, I repeat that this inspection system comes under the mineral resources division. No change has therefore been made.
JU1|E 1, 1961	5719
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys


William Arnold Peters: I knew last year that % perhaps low grading or high grading is tak-was the case, but I had hoped the syste^ ing place. I think in other ones you could would eventually be changed. I do not kn% say it would be a speculative thing to suggest
how these divisions got named, or how theSe officials got there in the first place, but ^ would seem to me that the officials concerned with mining in the department should be in the mining division rather than in some other branch. The minister may remember that two or three other departments were involved in this question when we discussed it last year.
I am pleased that we now have two people in the other division, even though I think it is the wrong division, who are capable of carrying out supervision underground. I should like to know how long they have been doing the job of investigation. I say this because in my 15 years of working underground I never met a federal inspector, and I personally do not know of anyone who has ever met a federal mines inspector underground. We did know that the treasury sent in inspectors to check the books but I, personally, never heard of one of these inspectors, in all the years I was working in the mines, doing a physical inspection underground.


Paul Comtois: These engineers make their underground inspections when the department feels they are necessary. The department determines when the underground inspection is required and it is then done. Otherwise the engineers do not go underground.
If the hon. member wishes advance advice of the date and the time that the inspectors will be there I can arrange to have him informed, but it is not the usual practice to inform hon. members of inspector's visits.
The hon. member has said that he never met an inspector there. This does not necessarily prove that the inspector was not there.


William Arnold Peters: I worked on only one shift. He might have come to the mine on the other shift. That is perfectly true. It would seem funny to me if in the 15 years of which I have knowledge the inspector always came on the opposite shift to that on which I was working.
As a member of parliament, I do not want to know whether the inspector is in the gold mines because I am not in a position to make any contribution if I did know when he was going to be there. Charges have been made, and I have no intention of making them again.
This is a very large department and a very wealthy one as well. The jurisdiction of the minister is not a small one. It is true that you could go to some of the mines and not find any of these things taking place, but I think I could tell you of some mines where
that. AH I am suggesting is that on occasion inspectors should be called in or should be available to do this underground inspection.
I would suggest to the minister that the only real indication that this would be of some value is when the miners themselves or their representatives in their unions make a charge and are willing to document it. When that is done, there should be somebody capable of examining into the matter. I did receive such a charge from one of the organization. I communicated it to the minister and I have been informed by the people who brought it to my attention that nothing was ever done about it. I think the reason is that we really do not have the facilities or the people capable of inspecting the book work that has been done.
When the minister says that inspections have been made, I say nothing has been done in a physical way to verify this. It could only be done by an underground inspection. I am inclined to the belief that the inspectors are not trained for that type of work.


Douglas Mason Fisher: 
session a proposal was brought before the committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines dealing with the location of a railroad development up in the minister's area of Quebec. There was much discussion in that committee about the location of the smelter and the refinery which would process the ore from this big new field that has been opened up. Can the minister indicate whether his department, and specifically this branch, has given any advice as to the best location of this particular development namely, the smelter or the refinery. I understand there is considerable competition between different localities in Quebec particularly with respect to the location of the refinery. I should like to find out just what role the minister's branch would play in a field such as this in making sure that the wisest possible decision is taken.
Before the minister tells me that this is a decision that would be taken by private enterprise, may I say that I am sure there are government considerations involved. I imagine that the Quebec government has some views in the matter and I would also imagine that the federal government would have some views with regard to location. I think the minister is aware that the people in the actual area of the mines would be very pleased if the refinery were established there. I know that the argument against the establishment of the refinery there is that the quantities of hydro power required and the location of the market are such that the refinery should be at tidewater. These are all economic and market factors that enter into the matter of location.
What I should like from the minister is some indication as to his views as a minister from Quebec who is interested in this field with respect to where the refinery is going to be established. I should like to know whether he has any views on the matter and what his department is doing with regard to it.
I come to the last point on which I want to touch relating to this branch. Last year on the estimates I made some remarks about the views of the Canadian Metal Mining Association with regard to research. I expressed the opinion that as I interpreted a press release I had seen in the newspapers the Canadian Metal Mining Association felt that the industry could take care of its own research in this particular field. Subsequently I had a letter from the managing director of the Canadian Metal Mining Association, Mr. V. C. Wansbrough, setting me straight.
There was a very interesting part in the letter in which he advised me that one should not put too much credence in the newspapers for, as he said, "We are bound to confess that their reports act sometimes as a distorting medium". It was that very

lucid, apt and correct comment that made me feel he was quite correct in the point he made to me that at no time has the Canadian Metal Mining Association made representations to the government that they did not want the department to be active in research in the particular field of metal mining. My remarks are not in the nature of an apology but just to put the record straight by indicating that as a result of a press report I misinterpreted their position.
With respect to research I should like to ask the minister if he can tell us how the mines branch is coming along in carrying out the recommendations that were made two years ago by the mines, forests and waters committee about expansion of its activities. These sum up fairly well the questions I want to put to the minister. I hope he is in a position to answer several of them now. If he is not, I would appreciate a reply by letter.


Paul Comtois: Mr. Chairman, I will begin by going back to the question of inspectors. The hon. member for Timiskaming referred to the experience of the inspectors. I can tell him that one of them has 17 years' experience in mining, five of which were in gold mining. The other inspector has about 25 years' operating experience in mining; previous inspectors have also had long experience in the mining industry. We are very careful to have experienced men for inspection purposes. There would be no point in doing otherwise. It is perfectly useless to have inexperienced inspectors going into mines and to expect that such inspectors would make an accurate report.


William Arnold Peters: May I ask a question? Approximately how many working days did they spend in underground operations last year?


Paul Comtois: We do not have that information available here but I will provide the hon. member with the answer as soon as I can get it. The hon. member for Port Arthur referred to stockpiling and the matter of liaison between my department and the Department of Defence Production. He referred to liaison on the part of my department with regard to the question of timeliness in the disposal of stockpiles having regard to current prices and marketing opportunities. Our advice is sought at the time but the decision is taken by the Department of Defence Production. We do not have to look after that matter. It comes under the authority of my colleague. As far as we are concerned, we give advice. We give the information that is required but the sale or disposal of these materials is not our concern and does not come under our authority.
90205-6-361
1. 1961	5721
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
The hon. member referred to the zinc refinery in Quebec. I will not deal with what the hon. member said about my province. There is no point in bringing provincial politics into the matter. I know that the hon. member likes to do that. He likes to play in muddy waters. It has become more or less a habit for him, and all members of the house know how he likes that. He is not going to drag me into it because it is not my business. The same principle applies to the question of the zinc refinery in northern Quebec. When a company decides to proceed with the building of a refinery the only thing it has to get is a permit from the province. We do not have to interfere. It is a provincial matter and at my age I know how to mind my own business.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Chairman, I have three or four simple questions to ask the minister on this item because I have always been interested in the relationship between mines branch research and private industry. Can he tell the committee who decides what projects will be undertaken? Are they a matter of decision for the mines branch officials alone or do they take advice or suggestions from private industry? Do employees of private industry spend some time in the research section of the mines branch and, if so, under what arrangements? Are the results of research provided gratis to private industry wherever it may be? Does the department ever obtain any patents based upon the results of research that is undertaken?


Paul Comtois: Before answering this last point, Mr. Chairman, I should like to refer to the question about inspectors asked by the hon. member for Timiskaming. I did not have the information when he asked his question. I wish to inform him that our gold mines inspectors made spot investigations this year amounting to 13 underground inspections out of 40 mines inspected to date. Each underground inspection takes about half a day. I hope this answers the question raised by the hon. member.


William Arnold Peters: We are very glad to hear this, Mr. Chairman, and I presume the record is better than it has been in the past. We are grateful to the minister for what has been done. I think those mines that need this assistance badly are interested in seeing that it is given on an honest basis. I think they will appreciate these inspections.


Paul Comtois: In order to complete my answer, I might add that two inspectors go underground at the same time, not one inspector alone.


Armand Dumas: In view of the fact the hon. member for Port Arthur mentioned my name
5722	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys in respect of the zinc refinery in northwestern Quebec, I think I should say a few words. I did not intend to speak on this subject today. First of all, the refinery is not in my constituency. I knew the hon. member for Chapleau would mention it because it is in his district. The people of my district know my stand on this question. I am one of those who wish sincerely that this refinery could be established in northwestern Quebec. There are few people who know why this refinery many not be built in northwestern Quebec.
First of all, there is the question of hydroelectric power. People who know the situation realize that it takes a large amount of hydroelectric power to operate a zinc refinery. Unfortunately, very unfortunately indeed, hydroelectric power could have been developed in northwestern Quebec some years ago but it was not developed. This is water under the bridge, and it is no use crying now. I am sure the present government in Quebec will see that hydroelectric power is developed in the near future, and I think there will be enough power to permit such installation as a zinc refinery. We know that this will take perhaps five years' work on the Nottaway river.
Then, there is the question of by-products. Are we going to let these by-products go to waste or are we going to try to use them? These are very important questions. I still hope that a refinery can be built in northwestern Quebec. However, I do not believe it is the business of the federal government to try to influence the provincial government on this question. This is not the business of the federal government, it is the business of the provincial government. If the refinery were to be built, let us say, south of the border in the United States, then the federal government would have something to say. If the refinery were to be built to refine Quebec zinc in the maritimes, perhaps the federal government should say something about that and perhaps should insist the refinery be built in Quebec. But under the circumstances, there is no reason at all for the federal government to interfere with something which is really a provincial matter.
Now, a refinery will be built in Quebec. We are sure of that. However, people with knowledge of the situation realize that there are circumstances which sometimes prevent us from going ahead with a project. This is the case. In view of the fact that we do not have enough hydroelectric power in northwestern Quebec, and we will not have enough for the next four or five years for such a project, we cannot go ahead with it now. This is the situation.


Paul Comtois: I should like to answer the question asked by the hon. member for Kootenay West in relation to how we make the decisions about our research projects. I can say that there are two types of research projects: short term and long term. The short term projects are generally undertaken at the request of the industry. The long term projects are generally undertaken on our own decision.
In so far as patents are concerned, I may say that we do apply for them when we feel an invention might be useful to Canadian industry. Does that answer the question?


Douglas Mason Fisher: I just wanted to say that I do not know whether I should be hurt by the minister's reference that I was trying to muddy the waters. I was trying to appeal to him, as one of the four or five lions of Quebec, in order to ascertain whether or not he had any views on this particular matter. I take it he has none, and he is not really interested in where this particular refinery is located. This is really all I was trying to ascertain.


Paul Comtois: May I interrupt the hon. member, Mr. Chairman? Evidently he did not hear me this morning when I answered the hon. member for Villeneuve or he would have known that I gave my opinion on that question. I said that I would be very pleased if we had a refinery in the province of Quebec. However, so far as influencing the choice of a site is concerned, I said that it was not my business.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I am sorry I forced the minister into being redundant through my absence. I wonder if he would answer my question about the extent to which the mines branch has gone toward achieving compliance with the recommendations made two years ago by the mines, forests and waters committee concerning an extension of its operations?


Paul Comtois: I must say that in that respect the department has not achieved compliance with the full recommendations of the committee. That is what he is referring to, I think. The staff has been increased but not to the extent recommended by the committee. I could give some figures which the hon. member will find on page 43.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I will not ask the minister for figures. I wonder whether he can tell me what difficulties there have been in connection with implementing the committee's report? It is really not the details with which I am concerned. As a member of the committee, I am interested in knowing how departments manage to move or not move along to the recommended goals. I should like to know

about it from that point of view rather than with regard to specific numbers.


Paul Comtois: I think I understand now what the question is. The difficulty is this. We are prepared to extend our staff and wish to improve our efficiency but there is a problem of space. We are looking for space. I know that some of my executives are making a study of the matter and are trying to find out where we could place the extra staff we need and intend to recruit. It is not only a matter of hiring them. We must find accommodation for them so that we could get added efficiency. Part of the mines branch will soon be moved into the green belt area. Once this move is made, space will be available in the mines branch building on Booth street so that more people could be accommodated and follow the recommendation of the committee two years ago. It is not always realized what our problems are. Many factors contribute preventing us from going as fast as we would like to go.


Mr. Carter:: I have one question. I am not sure whether the minister has any responsibility in this matter. However, I wonder whether he can give the committee any information about the steps that were taken, I think a year ago, to offset the radiation hazard in the fluorspar mine in St. Lawrence and, if so, how these arrangements are working out.


Paul Comtois: I presume that the question is in connection with the fluorspar mines in Nova Scotia-


Chesley William Carter: No. The fluorspar mines in Newfoundland.


Paul Comtois: There are some fluorspar mines in Nova Scotia. The hon. member refers to those in Newfoundland?


Chesley William Carter: Yes. The trouble was that a very severe radiation hazard was discovered in those mines and they were closed down for some time because the miners refused to work there. Then some arrangement was worked out to make those mines safe. I understand some system of monitoring was to be set up whereby the miners themselves would have some way of knowing whether or not those mines were safe. I just wondered what had taken place.


Paul Comtois: As far as my department is concerned, we have nothing to do with the matter. It might concern the health and welfare department or, as far as radiation is concerned the atomic energy control board. However, we cannot deal with that problem directly.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
90205-6-361$
1. 1961	5723
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
Geographical branch-
222. Administration, operation and maintenance including the expenses of the Canadian board on geographical names (formerly under surveys and mapping branch administration) and a grant of $500 to the Canadian association of geographers $500,626.
(Translation):
Armand Dumas: Mr. Chairman, could the minister indicate how many geographers will actually be employed during the summer on the systematic study of land uses in Canada?


Paul Comtois: About ten, Mr. Chairman.


Mr. Pigeon:: 
Paul Comtois: In reply to the hon. member for Joliette-L'Assomption-Montcalm, I might say that topographical maps, are now printed with bilingual legends. I wonder whether the hon. member is aware of the nature of a topographical map. He will find that there are very few indications on the map itself. The important thing is to have bilingual legends. The legends of all our topographical maps are now bilingual.
With regard to hydrographic maps, the work, is already under way, but the problem is slightly different.
Some time ago, a Quebec newspaper reproduced part of a map of Pointe-au-Pere, Quebec. It is a map for the use of pilots. I was criticized for not having published this map in both languages and without bilingual captions, and the paper said in particular as
5724	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys an example that "Father's Point" was mentioned instead of Pointe-au-Pere, complaining that in the province of Quebec, the department published only one map for the pilots and that it was printed in English only.
They had not taken the trouble to inquire about it, otherwise they would have realized that those shipping maps are used not only by the Quebec-Pointe-au-Pere pilots, but by the pilots of all the shipping companies of the world which do business here and have to use those maps.
Before changing anything in the names on those maps, we must first make some arrangement both with the British admiralty and with the shipping companies, or with the navy departments of the various countries. We must make sure there is uniformity between the Canadian map and the others.
One must realize that it takes time and that, though we try our best, we cannot print bilingual maps and make the necessary changes on the existing maps before _ notifying the various countries that do business in Canada.
That article had bitter criticism for the department and myself in particular, for it said that I did not care about bilingualism. It is quite unfair to me. They say those things without going to the trouble of checking the situation. It would be easier and more plausible and fair to inquire first on what seems to be an anomaly.
I can assure the hon. member that our topographical maps have bilingual legends and that our geological reports that are of general interest for the country are published in both languages. As for our reports that are of interest for the province of Quebec, they are always published in both languages, and are issued simultaneously. To sum it up, there has been considerable progress in that field.
(Text):


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
224. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $493,050.
William Arnold Peters: Mr. Chairman, I wonder
whether the minister has anything to add to what was said last year about what the government has been doing in this field in relation to the study of sun spots and the aurora borealis. What work are our laboratories doing in this field? Are we increasing our observatory equipment? Is there any contemplation of installing new equipment this year?


Paul Comtois: The aurora borealis is studied by the defence research board. If we are called upon for advice or information, we are


pleased to co-operate, but this matter concerns the defence research board.


William Arnold Peters: The statement was made not very long ago by the head of the largest observatory in England that the equipment they were using was not of sufficient strength to pick up some of the objects which should now be under observation. He said they were in dire need of new equipment; the only way they could keep these objects, satellites for example, under observation was by being told what the course was going to be from time to time.
The head of the observatory said they were in great need of further equipment and, as far as they knew, at that time they had the best equipment in the world. I am wondering whether we are in any way trying to keep up with the needs of the day as expressed by the head of the British observatory. If so, are we contemplating building any large, electronic telescopes and other equipment for this purpose?
At one time it was reported that Canada had a fairly up to date and competent observatory. I am wondering whether improvements are being made so that we stay in this position in this field.


Paul Comtois: We are always trying to improve the equipment we have. We are not in competition with Great Britain, but we are trying to keep our equipment up to date.
Every year we ask for new equipment to be built and improvements are made every year, but it improves not as fast as we would like to see it improve. Last year we built the radio telescope in Penticton and as I mentioned earlier, we have another 48-inch telescope in Victoria. In Ottawa we are improving our facilities in the observatory by installing electronic and other devices.


William Arnold Peters: Do we carry out regular tracking of satellites and other phenomena? Do we do this from the dominion observatory and correlate the reports that are submitted from other observatories on the continent and across the world? Do we now have facilities for communication between these observatories in order to maintain our share of a world-wide observatory system?


Paul Comtois: Yes, we do track satellites; we do as much as we can in this field. We collect and compute all the information which is obtained from other observatories in the world. We gather up this information. Dr. Petrie in Ottawa gathers the information and publishes reports.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Mr. Chairman, I want to ask the minister how this particular observatory in its tracking system in so far as satellites are concerned is working with the defence

department. I am interested in the whole question of defence from missiles of various kinds.
I know this may sound fantastic, but there is speculation that space platforms may be built, or that satellites from which attacks may be made, may be sent into space. I am wondering if there is any intention of building up the dominion observatory so that in time it can be part of the whole space study program with defence research aspects to it?
It is quite apparent that if the Russians can put a man into space and have him circle around the earth, and if observatories are involved in the tracking, and if they can land that man from space within a very small designated area, this is one form of possible attack that we may face.
Royal Assent
An act to authorize certain amendments to the agreement made under the Coal Production Assistance Act with Bras d'Or Coal Company Limited.
An act respecting the vocational rehabilitation of disabled persons and the co-ordination of rehabilitation services.
An act to amend the Farm Improvement Loans Act.
An act respecting Co-operative Life Insurance Company.
An act to amend the Representation Act.
An act respecting Canadian Pacific Railway Company.
An act to amend the Criminal Code (Race meetings).
An act to amend the Fisheries Act.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Morton in the chair.



THE ROYAL ASSENT

Mr. Deputy Speaker:: I have the honour to inform the house that I have received the following communication:



DEPARTMENT OF MINES AND TECHNICAL SURVEYS

[Stage Direction]
224. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $493,050.
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Morton):: It
being six o'clock I do now leave the chair.
Government House, Ottawa 1st June 1961
Sir:
I have the honour to inform you that the Honourable Patrick Kerwin, Chief Justice of Canada acting as Deputy of His Excellency the Governor General will proceed to the Senate chamber today, he 1st June, at 5.45 p.m., for the purpose of giving the royal assent to certain bills.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The committee resumed at 7.30 p.m. The Chairman: Shall vote 224 carry?
I have the honour to be, sir,
Your obedient servant,
E. Joly De Lotbiniere Assistant Secretary to the Governor General
A message was delivered by Major C. R. Lamoureux, Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod, as follows:
Mr. Speaker, the Honourable the Deputy Governor General desires the immediate attendance of this honourable house in the chamber of the honourable the Senate.
Accordingly, the Deputy Speaker with the house went up to the Senate chamber.
And being returned:
(Translation):
Mr. Deputy Speaker:: I have the honour to inform the house that when the house proceeded to the Senate chamber, the deputy of His Excellency the Governor General has been pleased to give in Her Majesty's name the royal assent to certain bills.
(Text):
An act to implement a convention between Canada and the United States of America for the avoidance of double taxation and the prevention of fiscal evasion with respect to taxes on the estates of deceased persons.
An act for the establishment of a national design council.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Mr. Chairman, when the knock came on the door I was in the process of asking the minister about the role the dominion observatory plays now in terms of matters of space and the role it might conceivably come to play as part of our defence tracking system. I wondered whether the minister had any information on that point.


Paul Comtois: In answer to the question of the hon. member for Port Arthur, I would like to say that our department has no direct responsibility in this matter but in areas where we can be useful we do undertake work or projects to assist in defence endeavours. With respect to gravity, for example, if some particular information is required by the defence department we produce the figures and provide the department with the knowledge we already have or we get the information needed.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I want to draw the minister's attention to a correspondent of the department and particularly of the observatory, a Mr. James Hills of R.R. 2, Allenford. I do not know whether he has communicated with all members of parliament but I have certainly had several communications from him with relation to some doubts he has about certain drawings provided him by the Department of
572G	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys Mines and Technical Surveys. It would seem to me from the reply I received from the public relations officer of the observatory that the observatory had assumed that it was most difficult to put over the facts of the case with Mr. Hills. Perhaps I can give hon. members an idea of how difficult it may be to get information across to Mr. Hills. I read from one of his publications in which he says:
I think there is a way of making the moon come down. None of those theories by scholars about momentum, gravity or centrifugal force will stand up to much study.
This is a sample of his approach to things, but this is the question I want to ask the minister. When people in the scientific field take objection to the information that is supplied to them, how far does the agency go in trying to provide an answer or do they just write off the whole matter? It seems to me that the replies that have gone out from the observatory are perhaps extremely brief when you consider the lack of knowledge that this man seems to have. Does the minister get many queries such as this from people who cast doubts upon the accuracy of the scientific information of the department? How far does the minister go in replying to them?


Paul Comtois: We receive many inquiries, of course, about different matters relating to the observatories. Many inquiries are received but it is not always easy to answer. In replying we cannot give a course on gravity or seismology or disciplines of that kind. It is not very easy to answer when scientific matters are involved. I am sure the hon. member will agree. If a straight question is asked on a specific matter we give the information forthright. I see the hon. member is laughing. Possibly he wants to have a laugh at my expense, but I take it in the same way as he has put the question.
Item agree to.
General-
228. Polar continental shell project, $1,553,595.
(Translation):


Armand Dumas: Mr. Chairman, some time in March 1961, the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys made a statement concerning the expedition to the polar shelf and he then said that certain officials of his department were making arrangements to go there.
I wonder if the whole group is now in the polar shelf with a view to conducting the survey to be made.


Paul Comtois: Yes, Mr. Chairman, the whole group has been there for several weeks. Some 70 men are there and have undertaken their survey.


Some may have come back since then and others may have joined the party. Every so often, changes have to be made. It may happen that when an employee or an official specialized in one branch or another has completed his work and collected all the information he needs, he is replaced by another specialist to do a different work for the same survey project, at the same place. So there is a certain amount of rotation of personnel. However, I might say that the team has been there since the end of March.


Armand Dumas: Could the minister give us the approximate date when the 1961 work program will be completed?


Paul Comtois: At the end of August or early September. The last men on our team over there will come back, I think, in early September because that is when winter almost sets in over there.
I do not know if this may be of interest to the house, but I should say that I received tonight from Dr. Beal, who is in charge of an expedition, a report concerning the activities of his team. I then learned that one of his men has been attacked by a polar bear inside the camp; part of his arm-I do not know exactly what term to use-was gnawed away, so to speak, by a polar bear. He is now in hospital. I wanted to report this to the house in order to inform you of the dangers facing those men. In fact they are armed and they carry with them all the necessary equipment to meet any contingency. That goes to say that those expeditions in the Arctic require well trained men who can occasionally take a risk for the progress of science and for the efficiency of the service to which they belong. (Text):


Mr. Pickersgill:: I wonder if the minister could tell us whether or not his particular friends, the Autair company are still engaged in activities on the polar shelf?
(Translation):


Paul Comtois: Mr. Chairman, I would certainly answer the member for Bonavista-Twillingate by saying that the Autair Company was awarded that contract. I could not say whether those reports are accurate; therefore I would not be able to appreciate their efficiency because there are so many factors involved.
(Text):
There are so many questions that may be involved; so many things may happen in the course of the work, that it is not the easiest thing to arrive at any conclusion. The reports we have are satisfactory.
(Translation):
I feel, Mr. Chairman, that I should bring a correction to some statements made in this house quite recently concerning our helicopter contract for the continental polar shelf

exploration project. I refer to what the hon. member for Laurier (Mr. Chevrier) said about our contract awarding system.
Serious criticisms were levelled against us. The hon. member for Laurier took me to task, as a minister, to reprove the policy we have followed-that is not to call tenders for such contracts.
We invite quotations from the air transport board which comes under the Department of Transport. We establish the cost of the operation for each firm, or the cost of transportation of material, from the point of departure to distribution. Aircraft such as the Bell and the Sikorsky must be dismantled before being shipped to site on heavy cargo planes and re-assembled once they have reached destination.
Our policy is not to call tenders, and it is the same as that which was established seven years ago, that is before I took over and before the present administration came to office.
Therefore there have been no changes.
I regret that the hon. member for Laurier is not at his place now, but on the other hand I was not here when he made his remarks and my answer is not any more severe than the attack he levelled at me. As a matter of fact, I am surprised at the attitude of the hon. member. He stated that the procedure I have followed is entirely inadequate and that he disapproves of the system of not calling tenders for such work.
I just said that we followed the practice introduced in 1954 and I am surprised that he said in this chamber that the method was inadequate, because when he was minister of transport in 1954, he preached an entirely different doctrine. He was against the principles of calling for tenders, and that year-


John Whitney Pickersgill: What date?


Paul Comtois: I will give it to the hon. member. The hon. member for Laurier made his statement here on March 28-
(Text):


John Whitney Pickersgill: The date I wanted from the minister was the date in 1954 when these contracts were given without asking for tenders.


Paul Comtois: I think it was in February, 1954. I can check on that; I have some means of checking the exact time.
(Translation):
At that time the then minister of transport, Mr. Lionel Chevrier, complained to the minister of mines, the Hon. George Prudham, for having called tenders. He was blaming him for having disregarded the instructions
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys given by the government, and for not following the procedure, which we have since then been following. The proof-I have to give proof, for the hon. member has reproved that practice which was the exact opposite of what he was preaching-is that on February 25, 1954 he wrote the following letter to the then minister of mines, Mr. Prudham; (Text):
Honourable G. Prudham,
Minister,
Department of Mines and Technical Surveys, Ottawa, Canada.
My dear colleague:
A number of instances have recently arisen where departments have called for and received tenders for commercial air services which were not in accord with air carriers' licences or with their publicly filed tariffs. This is creating considerable embarrassment for the air transport board and is raising difficulties within the industry itself.
This situation is, no doubt, due to the usual changes in personnel of government departments.
The public filing of air carriers' rates have been incorporated in the Aeronautics Act to ensure fair treatment of the public and to avoid the unethical rate-cutting that injured Canadian aviation in the 1930's. The Post Office is the only exception since by statute it may set its own rate of payment.
Some years ago it was found that a number of government departments did not understand this legal position and were calling for tenders for air transportation from commercial air carriers within Canada. This encouraged the air carriers to tender on services which they were not licensed to perform or at rates which were not in their filed tariffs and, therefore, not valid rates.
To correct this situation, the attached cabinet directive No. 12 was issued to all departments in 1949 pointing out that any department wishing to purchase commercial air services could obtain full information regarding air carriers licensed to perform the services required and the legal rates of such air carriers from the air transport board. The cabinet directive established that the tender procedure should not be followed by government departments in this field, except in specialized cases such as aerial photography and surveying or other types of specialty service where the provision of transportation is not involved and where air carriers have not been required by the air transport board to file tariffs.
Because of the situation that has developed, it would be appreciated if your deputies would draw the cabinet directive to the attention of your purchasing staff and other appropriate departmental personnel.
I have a copy of the instruction or the cabinet directive.


John Whitney Pickersgill: That is fine.


Paul Comtois: So my department has followed exactly this cabinet directive. (Translation):
I fail to understand why the hon. member for Laurier blames me for following the instructions issued by the cabinet at that time when he urged his colleague to comply with
5728	HOUSE OF COMMONS
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys them in 1954 and then criticized him lor not doing so.
There is something wrong here. There is a lack of understanding, an oversight. I do not know. Is it because the then minister of transport, now the member for Laurier, is taking a different view of the matter since he has been on the other side of the house? Maybe.
Well, here are the facts, and there can be no mistake about that. We have acted on the instructions of the cabinet on every point and they have not been changed since that time. We are proceeding in exactly the same way as last year, and two years ago, and I have no reason to believe that a change will be effected in the future. This is the usual procedure followed in the department.
The hon. member for Laurier also criticized our attitude saying that we had failed to award the contract to the lowest bidder. Now, this is just not so, because we have worked out the price of the contract. This is what the hon. member said in his speech of March 28:
(Text):
I state that it-
That is the contract.
-was given without the calling of tenders .. . In this case the minister, for some unknown reason,-
(Translation):
You will note, Mr. Chairman, the words chosen by the hon. member.
(Text):
-decided not to call for tenders ... and simply awarded the contract on the basis of information obtained through the filing of tariff rates. (Translation):
What comments on my part is the house expecting? The explanation is there. I gave the reason, and I have no other to offer. The contract was awarded to the company which had filed its scale of charges and duly submitted them and which according to the estimates of the officials of the department, was offering to do the work for the lowest price. As a matter of fact, according to our estimates, the price represented, for the scale of charges only, a difference of $25,000, in favour of the Autair Company, as compared with the other tenderers.
Consequently, I feel the explanation I have given justifies to a degree my attitude, and I wanted to correct unfair statements made about me by the hon. member for Laurier. (Text):


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, what the minister has said is, of course, very interesting and perhaps we should not blame the minister for the fact that he was not here prior to 1957, and that he did not know that his present colleagues, when they were over here
[Mr. Comtols.l
on this side of the chamber, advocated a policy of competition in this field instead of the policy that was followed by the previous Liberal government and promised to bring that policy of competition into effect. In some respects they brought that policy of competition into effect and have done great harm to the air industry in doing so. I think the present Minister of Transport is trying to correct some of the mistakes that were made in this regard by his predecessor who is now the Minister of Trade and Commerce. What the minister is saying is that he followed the old Liberal policy and that he did not follow the policy of his colleague the Minister of Transport. That is what he is saying.
That is very interesting, because at the very time these contracts were being let the minister will recall that the Minister of Trade and Commerce, who was then the minister of transport, was creating chaos in the air industry by this new policy of competition in this field. It is hard to understand why this new policy of competition which was applied everywhere else should not have been applied to the polar shelf. This was the Tory policy that was going to correct the mistakes that had been made by the Liberals. The minister boasts that he did not follow it but rather stuck to the old Liberal policy because it was the better policy. We are flattered that he should say that. However, it is very odd that he should be saying that when his colleague, the present Minister of Trade and Commerce; was boasting about how he was introducing competition into this field.
There is another aspect of the minister's explanation that strikes me as being a little bit odd. The minister says that the reason why there was no sense in calling for tenders was that they had to file tariffs and the tariffs had to be fair. But then he also told us that Autair's submission which was not a submission-if you understand what that means, Mr. Chairman; it is like "Alice in Wonderland", a submission which was not a submission-of $25,000, if I remember the minister's statement correctly, was lower than anyone else's figure. How could it have been lower if the tariffs were the same for all of them and the minister was merely selecting the firm that could do the job best? How could one be cheaper than the other? It is hard to understand that. If there were not tenders, how does the minister explain this so-called saving of $25,000? His explanation, to a simple person like myself, does not make any kind of sense at all.
First of all the minister says he did not follow the new policy of his government; he followed the old policy laid down by my hon. friend from Laurier, which we think was a better policy, of course. But then the minister

says, notwithstanding the fact that he followed the old Liberal policy and did not ask for tenders, he still got a cheaper price from Autair than he would have got from any other company.
I do not see how that would have been possible if they all had to charge the same price and adhere to the tariffs. Surely the minister will have to explain to us where this saving of $25,000 came in, because from the explanation the minister has given, it does not seem to me to make any kind of sense at all.
We know of course, from information the minister gave us last year, that certain tariffs were filed and the minister reached a conclusion that this company was the best company to do this job. We have also got information

I am sorry to say I have not had time to look it up-given in answer to questions, that this company has the worse accident rate of any company in the industry.
Is that the basis on which the minister chose this company as the most competent one to do this job? It seems to me that if all of them charge the same price it is odd that the company that has the worst accident rate, the company that had its insurance cut off on more than one occasion, should have been selected by the government as its chosen instrument. Perhaps the minister would explain that.
(Translation):


Paul Comtois: Mr. Chairman, nothing is easier than to explain what has been going on and what we have done, unless I have to deal with someone who refuses to understand or rejects beforehand what I have to say.
First of all, the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys has nothing to do with rates. Those come under the jurisdiction of the A.T.B. and, therefore, of the Department of Transport.
What we insist in knowing is whether a company had its rates approved and those rates are liable to change.
A company submits its rates to the A.T.B. in order to have them approved. Another company might submit other rates. They also have to be approved.
All those companies are class 4 companies, which means that they have to submit their prices and rates for approval.
It is not the duty of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys to ascertain whether such a company has filed new rates, whether those were approved, whether objections were raised or not, whether the company is insured or not. That is not our job.
90205-6-362
1, 1961	5729
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
What we must know from the air transport board is whether this company is in good standing or not, whether it carries insurance, and whether, according to the board, it offers the required guarantees for carrying out the contract.
If we have these guarantees, our responsibility is all the more reduced.
We then compute the costs based on the rates and on the costs of transporting the equipment, what we call "positioning" and "depositioning", that is the dismantling of the aircraft before the transport operation and the reassembling of it when it has reached its destination.
There are instances-and of this the hon. member is not aware and I fully understand his ignorance in the matter-there are instances where a company may have an opportunity to have its transportation done (what we call positioning and depositioning) in the Arctic at a better price than another company.
As anyone knows, at least anyone familiar with the procedures followed in such work, Sikorsky or Bell planes are used for such conveyance. And it is known also that in that field the competition among the different companies is keen. It is for them a matter of prestige, of competition and of getting contracts.
They make their bids, watching one another closely. Sometimes they even wait until the last minute to file new rates with the board to prevent a competitor from knowing beforehand what rates they submitted.
With regard to transportation, a company may have opportunities to go there and return at the end of the season for a better price than a competitor. This accounts for its lower operating costs.
I have already answered a question on this matter put to me by the hon. member for Laurier (Mr. Chevrier).
This procedure makes it possible to arrive at the operating cost which is most economical.
First of all we want to be assured by the air transport board that the company is in good standing.
We figure out the most economical rates for us making sure that the company is in a position to provide us with the required aircraft.
If, at the end of the year, we get a bad report on the company-if, for instance, the work has not been done properly and the service has been bad, we just have to discontinue our dealings with the company.
5730	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
Now, the Autair Company did an excellent job last year. We had a good report on its efficiency.
Consequently, we had no reason to ignore it this spring, and to dismiss its quotation.
The hon. member is free to think whatever he wants but that is the procedure we followed and we acted honestly.
We took the department's interests by making as much savings as possible and we hope that this year's results will be up to our expectations.
(Text):


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, I must say that 1 do not find the minister's explanation very convincing. After all, I do recall that some years ago when I was a member of the government there was a question of two companies seeking to get the business of the Department of Fisheries. It was drawn to the attention of the department-I remember this very well-at the time that there was this 1949 directive that a certain tariff must be established and must be adhered to. There was no difference in the cost as between selecting one company or the other as far as the Department of Fisheries was concerned, because the air transport board insisted that they should both charge the same tariff.
Therefore I cannot understand the explanation the minister gives at all, that they can file their tariff a little later than somebody else, file a different tariff. The only argument for having this system of filing tariffs-and it is a very powerful one-instead of having tenders is that we do not encourage people to bid below the cost or below the cost plus a reasonable profit for what they can do, and thereby neglect safety and other factors of that sort and bring chaos into the air industry. That is the only argument for having this regulatory system, which was the system that existed when there was a Liberal government.
The minister now says they file different tariffs, that the tariffs are not the same. What is the difference between that and asking for tenders? If the tariffs are different, you should ask for tenders and they should all be submitted on the same day, in sealed envelopes, so that one company does not know what the other is doing. If the tariffs are going to be established at a uniform rate, the question of service or something of that sort would be decisive. But the minister seems to suggest that different companies can submit different tariffs at the same times; that one can submit it first and the other can then find out, in some clandestine way, what the other has submitted and then submit a slightly lower one. That is having the worst of both possible worlds.


I suggest you should either have the system which existed in 1954 which the minister described, where the rates are fixed and where all you decide is which company can perform the service best for a fixed price, or the system of calling for tenders. But this sort of mixed up system the minister has described does not seem to me to make any sense at all.
(Translation):


Paul Comtois: Mr. Chairman, I think the hon. member does not yet understand.


John Whitney Pickersgill: That is obvious.


Paul Comtois: Yes, it is obvious.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Yes, it is obvious that I do not understand.


Paul Comtois: I am at a loss to explain the situation to the hon. member, and to make him realize that the rates sumbitted to the air transport board are not all the same.
There is a date set by the board for the filing of rates. Firms may file rates, but they need not do so on a particular date. The submissions need not be received the same day. There is no set date or time as in the case of public tenders. The department informs them that rates will be accepted up to a certain date-I think that is the procedure-and that after that date, rates will not be accepted, and the companies act accordingly.
The hon. member apparently believes the air transport board sets one single tariff for all the Sikorskys, for all the Bell 47-G2's, for all the Cessnas and for any other type of aircraft. That is not the procedure followed by the board.
If the hon. member wants further information, he may, when the estimates of the Department of Transport come up, ask for and obtain all the information he wants. I do not have that information available, and it is outside my jurisdiction.
Furthermore, it is not for me to discuss the procedure followed by the air transport board. We receive the scale of charges as submitted and we proceed as I have just explained, after consulting with the air transport board.
Perhaps Autair did not have all the required aircraft. It often happens that companies quote prices or submit tenders when they do not at the time have all the required aircraft. However, exchanges can be made; one company borrows from another. Such exchanges are quite common.

If, for instance, one company tenders for a particular contract requiring the use ot five Sikorskys and three Bell G-47's, it may happen that this company does not at the time have the five Sikorskys and the three Bells required. However, it can make arrangements with another firm to rent the aircraft, or it may buy new ones, as frequently happens.
It must be realized that the companies are not going to keep an unlimited number of aircraft in case they might get contracts; that would involve too great a liability risk.
As I have just said, this procedure is followed daily and is familiar to the air industry.
For that type of contracts, the companies exchange and borrow aircraft from one another. This is nothing to be ashamed of, because it is perfectly proper. Such arrangements are only natural in business and industry.
Once again, the important thing for the department is that the work be done on schedule, under favourable conditions, and that at the end of the season the program be completed.
(Text):


John Whitney Pickersgill: I must say that the minister's further explanation seems to make the situation even worse, because the procedure now being followed, according to the minister, contains the worst of both worlds. The hon. gentleman says different companies can file different tariffs with the air transport board at varying times. They can file them when they like, provided they do so before a certain date. Then, after these different submissions have been filed, the Department of Transport says "eeny, meeny, miny, mo", or on a similarly arbitrary basis picks out the one it intends to take. The minister referred to the tariffs as they were in 1954. The tariffs then were uniform and the air transport board decided what tariff was proper for a particular kind of service. I know whereof I speak, because I was in the government at that time and I have some experience of these particular matters.
Once you admit that various people can file different tariffs it is obvious that the person who files first, so that the details become known, is at a distinct disadvantage compared with a person who comes along at the eleventh hour and files his tariff. This is exactly what my hon. friend from Laurier was complaining about when he said, as reported in Hansard on March 28, at page 3437:
Here is my criticism of the manner in which this is being done, and I say this without any fear of contradiction. The minister may contradict 90205-6-362J
1, 1961	5731
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
it but I have it on reliable information. It is well known in the trade that notwithstanding the fact that tariffs had been filed, Autair was not the lowest of those who filed tariffs in accordance wih this policy of the minister which merits only condemnation.
It was this to which my hon. friend from Laurier was objecting, not the fact that the minister followed a system which was in existence under the previous regime. It was the fact that we have this mixed up system, if I may call it that, not tenders, but not fixed prices, which gives opportunity for just what seems to have happened in this particular case. It is notorious that this company-and this was well known to the air transport board because parliament had been told about it-has a bad accident record. This company is a fly by night outfit-I do not mean that they fly helicopters by night, because, of course, they have the midnight sun up there -but some of its operations would not have stood the light of day and it is odd that the government should have chosen this particular outfit for this job.


Armand Dumas: Earlier this afternoon I mentioned the fact that it was encouraging to note that members of the committee are aware of the importance of this department and realize, as was evident, that the services of this government department are of great value not only to the constituencies and areas which they represent but also to the development of Canadian natural resources as a whole.
I was very sorry to learn from a newspaper dispatch of the death of a former member of this house, Mr. Walter Little, who was a member from 1935 to 1953. Mr. Little represented the constituency of Timiskaming and he was a real friend of the mining industry, of the miners and of all those interested in this important work. He worked very hard for his constituency and I can only say that we are very sorry to hear of his death and extend our sincere sympathy to Mrs. Little and to her family in their sad bereavement.


William Arnold Peters: I should like to join with the hon. member who has just spoken in offering my sympathy to the family of Mr. Walter Little who represented the riding which I now represent. He was, indeed, a good friend of the mining industry. He went into the industry very early and built up a large trucking operation. His sons are now active in enterprises in that area. I wish to associate myself with the words of condolence we have just heard.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
5732	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys Dominion coal board-
229. Adminisration and investigations of the dominion coal board, $126,345.
Mr. Robichaud:: Is the minister going to make a statement on the dominion coal board?


Paul Comtois: Yes, Mr. Chairman. In presenting these estimates to this committee, I regret to report that the coal situation in Canada in the past year has grown more and more difficult as the competition from other fuels has intensified. It is becoming clear that the long established policy of providing assistance in the amount necessary to enable Canadian coal to meet the competition of imported coal in the markets of central Canada is no longer sufficient. The chief competition in these central markets and also in the home markets is no longer imported coal but other fuels.
It is open to question whether under the present rapidly changing competitive conditions a sound basis can be found for a long range basic policy. The royal commission appointed to investigate the industry and develop basic lines of policy has presented a report. This report has received wide comment both pro and con and, in view of this, was referred to an interdepartmental committee for study and report upon the probable effect of the specific recommendations. This committee has concluded its work and the report is now in my hands for consideration by the government. I need not tell the committee that it will be given as rapid and thorough consideration as other pressing matters will permit and I can assure hon. members that a formal statement will be issued as soon as it is possible to do so. That statement will, however, deal with long range matters, and there have been other immediate problems that have required consideration and action.
In this field, there has been the problem of closure of collieries in Cape Breton and the consequent unemployment. We have taken action on this matter as I have already reported to the house and are confident that the results will serve to avert the hardship that was facing many of our coal miners in this area.
The other immediate aspect is, of course, the continuation of support to the industry until a new and satisfactory long range policy can be worked out and applied. These estimates now before us are designed and intended to furnish this support.
Essentially, these estimates are the same as those approved last year. They continue the same high level of emergency assistance which resulted in the sale of a substantially increased tonnage of Nova Scotia coal in


Ontario last year. They have been calculated on the basis of assisting to market every last ton of Canadian coal that can reasonably be sold with subvention help. This applied not only to Nova Scotia coal but also to the coal from New Brunswick, Saskatchewan, Alberta and British Columbia.
Hon. members will note that the total amount estimated for subvention assistance in 1961-62 for all the coal regions of Canada is $13,244,900. This is a decrease of $1,843,050 by comparison with the more than $15 million provided in last year's estimates.
This decrease in the estimated requirements is not, I must emphasize, the result of any reduction in the effective rates of subvention assistance themselves. The sum of $13,244,900 represents our best estimate of the amount that will be required to move from Canadian mines all the coal that can find a market. If this amount is insufficient, and with the recent provision of further assistance to maintain employment in Cape Breton, it may well be so, the house will be asked to provide a further sum in supplementary estimates.
Statements have been made referring to the amount of imported coal still coming into Ontario and Quebec. I must again point out the fact mentioned by my predecessor in 1955 as reported in Hansard for July 25 at page 6737, that the idea that all coal is about the same and can be used without difficulty in any plant is a basic fallacy. A plant designed to operate economically on coal with certain characteristics will not necessarily perform with satisfaction on other coals. I am informed that practically every consumer within the subvention area of Quebec and Ontario has been canvassed and that there is no large consumer in this area whose equipment can efficiently use maritime coal who is not doing so. The imports of coal into this area are largely of sizes that cannot be supplied by the Nova Scotia mines or else are of different anaWtical qualities or combustion characteristics and are not replaceable by the high volatile low ash fusion coals of medium to high sulphur content that are produced in our maritime mines.
In spite of these restricting conditions we have had some success in our recent efforts to assist the sale of more Nova Scotia coal in Ontario to compensate for losses in the maritimes and in Quebec. In 1957-58, only
137,000	tons of Nova Scotia coal moved to Ontario while in 1959-60, this had increased to 734,000 tons. This level was maintained in the fiscal year just ended and it is hoped that with the recently announced order from the Ontario hydro, it can be increased in the present year. The competition from natural

gas is becoming more and more severe and as coal burning equipment is replaced by gas, the opportunities to promote the movement of Canadian coal continue to decrease.
The estimates before us provide for a slight decrease in the funds for subventions for Saskatchewan lignite. This is because lignite has lost certain industrial markets to natural gas in the far western section of Ontario.
The Saskatchewan lignite industry, as a whole, is in a comparatively healthy condition. It is even optimistic of recovering in the future some of the markets it is now losing to gas; but it appears unlikely to do so, to any great extent during the 1961-62 fiscal year.
In the case of Alberta and British Columbia coal, the same assistance is provided this year as last on coal moving into subvention areas for domestic and industrial use. There has been a substantial reduction in the amount provided to assist coal moving into these same areas for railway consumption but this, of course, merely reflects the displacement of the coal burning locomotive by the diesel.
The same amount is included as was provided last year to assist the export movement of Alberta and British Columbia coal. The effort to develop a market in Japan for the coking coals of western Canada is still in the experimental stage but the developments to date have been sufficiently satisfactory to warrant continuation for another year.
There is no doubt that there is a large potential market in the steel mills of Japan for coking coal. The trials of Canadian coals to date have been satisfactory and it appears possible that our coals will be acceptable to the consumers as replacements, in part, of premium coals at present imported from other countries.
There is a very serious question, however, whether the Japanese market is one that we can afford to develop to its possible potential. It may well be too expensive to continue the present high experimental rates of subvention assistance for any lengthy period. A vigorous effort is being made at the present time to reduce costs in three directions, mining costs, costs of transportation from the mines and handling and loading costs at the shipping piers. If these costs can be reduced and if the users can be convinced that the quality of our coal justifies a higher purchase price, the present subvention rate would be substantially reduced. In view of all these uncertainties, we can only continue the experiment on a year to year basis with an open mind as to the future.
Returning for a moment to the maritimes, some increase in funds has been included in
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys this year's estimates for subventions for New Brunswick coal from the Minto field. Generally speaking, the New Brunswick coal industry is in a healthy condition and has resumed its steady although unspectacular expansion which was interrupted by business conditions two or three years ago. The increase in subvention funds required is in line with this healthy development and will cover an expected small increase in tonnage shipped to subvention areas.
Although the Canadian coal situation is relatively healthy in New Brunswick and Saskatchewan, and although there may be some prospects for the coal industry five, 10 or 15 years from now, it would be foolish to hide from ourselves the seriousness of the present situation and the extent of the general decline of the industry over the past ten years. Let me place before you, Mr. Chairman, just a few comparisons.
In 1949 railway locomotives in western Canada consumed nearly 3i million tons of Canadian coal. Last year they consumed
2,000	tons. The 3 million tons burned by locomotives in 1949 provided three quarters of a million man-days of employment for the bituminous coal miners of Alberta and British Columbia. In 1960 coal production in the west for locomotive use provided 400 man-days of employment for miners, not quite enough to keep two miners busy during the year.
In 1949 and 1950 the Canadian production of coal was more than 19 million tons a year. In 1959 and 1960 Canadian coal production was less than 11 million tons a year. In 1950 Canada imported 22,660,000 tons of bituminous coal and 4,286,000 tons of American and British anthracite. In 1960 our bituminous coal imports were 11,090,000 tons or only half as much as we imported ten years ago. Last year our anthracite imports were 1,200,000 tons or just a little more than a quarter of the anthracite tonnage imported ten years ago.
In 1950 Canadian coal production of more than 19 million tons gave some 23,500 coal mine employees work for an average of 232 days during the year. To show the decline, in 1957 output of slightly over 13 million tons employed some 14,600 miners for an average of 227 days, while in 1959 the production of 10,600,000 tons provided work for only 11,500 miners for some 216 days.
Almost the only pleasant thing from the Canadian viewpoint that can be said about the reduction in employment from 23,000 to 11,500 in ten years is that the Canadian miners who did have work had more working days in their year than did coal miners in the United States. For example, the 11,500 coal mine employees in Canada in 1959
5734	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys averaged 216 days of work each. In the United States in that year employed coal miners averaged 185 days.
I feel, Mr. Chairman, that hon. members would not wish me to close this statement without paying a sincere and heartfelt tribute to Mr. Wilbur Uren who served this country so well as chairman of the dominion coal board since its establishment in 1947 until his retirement on April 1 of the present year. It is probably a measure of the value of his services, especially in these past few years of crisis in the coal industry, that some sort of record was established in the number of extensions he received beyond the normal retirement age of 65. The first extensions were authorized by the previous government and the remainder by the present government. I know I can tender to him the thanks of all of us for his fine service and our best wishes in his well earned retirement.


Hédard-J. Robichaud: Mr. Chairman, I wish to thank the minister for the statement he has just made to the committee in the presentation of he first item having to do with the dominion coal board. I noticed from his statement that the minister has realized the seriousness of the coal situation and he has admitted that the actions taken by the government so far by way of subventions are not sufficient to take care of the coal problems of the day. The minister has also referred to the royal commission on coal under Mr. Justice Rand which presented its report some time last fall. He has stated that the interdepartmental committee which was appointed by the government last fall to make a study and report on the recommendations of the Rand commission has now concluded its work and the report is now in the minister's hands. I feel that it is an injustice to members of the house, whether on the government side or in the opposition, to have to discuss the estimates of the dominion coal board when a report which would be very important in such discussions is being held up until the estimates are passed.
On February 14 I asked the minister the following question, as found on page 2016 of Hansard:
Can the minister advise the house whether the interdepartmental committee set up to advise the government on the Rand report has completed its study. If so, is the minister in a position to report to the house on the recommendations made by the said committee?
In the latter part of his reply the minister said that the committee was progressing with its study and he expected that the recommendations to the cabinet would be made within a few weeks. That is almost four months ago, and it is only tonight that we have learned from the minister that the report


has been completed and has been handed to the cabinet. We are called upon to discuss the estimates of the dominion coal board for the fiscal year 1961-62 and the latest information available to most hon. members is the annual report of the dominion coal board for the year 1958-59. We are not in a position to compare the estimates for the coming fiscal year with the report of the Coal board for the previous year.
I notice that in his statement the minister used figures and made references to the dominion coal board annual report for the year 1959-60. I happen to have in my hands a copy of this report which was handed to me this morning. I say again that it is not fair to members of this committee that they have to discuss the estimates of the department at a time when they have to go back three years to get some information on the division of the department that is under discussion. The minister should be in a position to give us further details with regard to the information which is contained in the annual report of the dominion coal board for the year 1959-60 and which I repeat is not in the hands of most of the members of this committee.
On page 4 of this report, I find the following statement:
Over the past decade, the decline of Canadian coal production has been nearly 50 per cent, and the decline of coal mine employment slightly more than 50 per cent, the difference representing a small increase in ability to produce more coal per man shift.
I should like the minister to inform this committee if this statement is also true with regard to the production of coal in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick.
The minister has quoted certain figures which he has taken from page 5 of this report and which are based on the calendar year instead of the fiscal year. I should like to get from the minister the number of employees in each year, and also the average days worked per year, in the Nova Scotia and New Brunswick coal mines from 1950 to 1960. The minister must have this information for Nova Scotia and New Brunswick because he has quoted from this report similar information relating to Canadian production.
There is a reference on page 4 of this report, as I have said, to the fact that the decline in Canadian coal production has been nearly 50 per cent. The facts are that from the year 1949 to 1957 the decrease in production in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick coal mines was less than 500,000 tons, approximately 55,000 tons per year. In the last two years, the decrease in production in the same area. Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, has been over 500,000 tons per year.


Mr. Maclnnis:: Would the hon. member permit a question? Would he mind repeating the figures on reduction in production?


Hédard-J. Robichaud: Yes, I said that in the last two years, in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick the reduction has been approximately 500,000 tons per year. These figures are confirmed on page 39 of the annual report, a copy of which the hon. member probably does not have in his hands, although he should have it because he is keenly interested in the coal problem and the latest information should be made available to him.


Donald MacInnis: I asked for the figures on production for the years before that.


Mr. Woolliams:: Mr. Chairman, would the hon. member permit a question?


Hédard-J. Robichaud: One at a time.


Eldon Mattison Woolliams: No, I want to ask a question. Is it not a fact that between 15 million and 20 million tons of coal about which the hon. member is talking came in from the United States during the time the Liberals were in power in this country?


John Whitney Pickersgill: What has that got to do with production?


Hédard-J. Robichaud: The figures I have quoted have nothing to do with imports into Canada. I have quoted the production figures.
On page 6 of this report, it is stated:
In the year under review, 1959-60, total coal consumption in Canada suffered a further decline to 24,414.000 tons-the lowest consumption figure since 1933.
Further on, it says:
It is perhaps noteworthy that the only, category of coal consumption which did not show a decline during 1959-60 was the requirements of coking plants. In this case, there was a million ton increase in consumption, attributable to the high level of activity in Canadian steel plants during the year. There will almost certainly continue to be a need, probably a growing need, for metallurgical coal.
This report states there will be a growing need for metallurgical coal. The minister should give this committee further details on the expectations for an increased market for this particular coal. On what is this statement based? What is the reason for arriving at such a conclusion? The minister should inform this committee what proportion of the increase, if there was a million ton increase in the consumption of this coal in 1959-60, was met by coal produced in the maritime provinces, Nova Scotia and New Brunswick. We should also like to know from the minister, if he has this information, what quantity of Nova Scotia coal was sold in Ontario during the year ending March 31, 1961.
1. 1961	5735
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
I noted that the report to which I have referred states that the amount sold in Ontario in 1960 was about the limit that could be reached. If I recall correctly, the minister referred to this fact in his statement. The minister has said, in this house and outside, on numerous occasions that his main hope for an increase in the sale of coal remained in the province of Ontario. I think the minister should take advantage of this opportunity to clarify this statement.
Further on in this report, on page 11, it is stated:
In the maritime provinces there was also a sharp increase in 1959 in residual oil consumption and imports.
The minister and the dominion coal board should have information as to the quantity of residual oil which was imported into the maritime provinces in 1959. We should like to know also if the minister has the same figures for 1960.
No doubt the minister is aware of a request that was presented to the government by the United Mine Workers of America asking for a one cent per gallon increase in the tariff on imports of oil. The amount so collected could be used to protect the coal industry. We would appreciate knowing from the minister what the position of the government is with regard to this request.
Now, Mr. Chairman, it was on August 20, 1959, that the Prime Minister made an announcement appointing a royal commission to study the coal problem. In referring to the appointment of this commission, here is what the 1959-60 report of the dominion coal board has to say:
The announcement said "the government feels the coal problem is a special one and so urgent as to require a special inquiry rather than consideration to be given as part of the general problem relating to sources of energy which is the field of investigation of the Borden commission on energy". After reviewing the additional subvention assistance provided both for maritime coal and the expansion of export shipments of western coal, the statement expressed the view that subsidies can do no more than temporarily meet the problem and indicated that recommendations to assure a long term solution would be expected of the new royal commission. Detailed terms of reference and the personnel of the royal commission would be announced at a later date.
That announcement was made on October 6 of the same year. It is very clear that the subventions have only been introduced to meet temporarily the problems indicated in the recommendations. The minister has admitted this fact in his statement this evening and he said that following the receipt of the report of the interdepartmental committee he will soon make long term recommendations with regard to a long term policy. I hope that the recommendations to be made by the minister in the name of the government will not
5736	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys be delayed further. We know that as from yesterday one mine in Cape Breton has closed its doors, that another one will close on July 1, and that a third one will close on August 31 next year. It was made very clear in the Rand commission recommendation that if closures had to take place, action should be taken by the government in order to take care of the miners who were displaced by such closures. I am not 100 per cent in favour of the recommendations of the Rand report. I agree that this is not the first time that coal mines have been closed. The dominion bureau of statistics weekly bulletin for March 10, 1961 has this to say:
Number of coal mines in operation in 1959 dropped to 133 from 158 in 1958,-
A drop of 25 in one year.

employees to 11,485 from 13,162-
A drop of almost 2,000 in one year.
-and salaries and wages to $37,123,000 from $42,250,000.
A drop of almost $5 million in the period of one year.
But the fact remains, Mr. Chairman, that some action should be taken to protect these miners who are being displaced and will be displaced by the closing of the coal mine. The position of the Liberal party was made clear in this house as early as July 1, 1958, by our leader when he recommended, as found at page 1807 of Hansard of that date:
(1)	An intensive and comprehensive program of scientific and industrial research to find more uses for coal and help bring about expanded employment;
(2)	Further measures to encourage greater production and marketing including more flexible uses of subventions to move coal to markets within and without the maritime area;-
The last recommendation was as follows:
(4) A specific and immediate plan of co-operation with the provincial governments to promote industrial enterprises to diversify the economy and increase employment opportunities.
This is a "must" if the areas affected by the closing of these coal mines are to be looked after. The government has received a number of recommendations. I have here a resolution from the Catholic clergy in the industrial area of Cape Breton with regard to the proposed closure of the coal mines. This was presented to the Prime Minister and to the premier of Nova Scotia. May I be allowed to quote just a few of the recommendations included in this resolution. The first reads:
In view of the particular economic situation in this area and of the general economic condition throughout Canada, it is imperative that if three mine closures must come, they should be staggered over a five or ten year period.
This is in line with the recommendation of the Rand commission and with the policies


which we have been advocating in this chamber since 1958. Further on the resolution states:
Because of the relationship between scientific resource development and industrial progress in this region, we strongly recommend the establishment of permanent research facilities for the three important industries of coal, forestry and fishing.
This again is in line with what we have been urging in this chamber for the last three years. Further on we find this recommendation:
Long term incentive legislation, to be established by the federal government for attracting secondary industry in the Atlantic region should receive determined support at all government levels.
Similarly, support should be given to the setting up of a capital projects commission for hte Atlantic region.
The position of the Liberal party on this particular recommendation is well known. The last recommendation is as follows:
The improvement of our economic situation demands the utmost co-operation between labour, industry, the various levels of government and the public generally. To this end we pledge our entire resources and good-will. We strongly feel that there is hope for the future of this area, if these recommendations are implemented forthwith, but we also emphasize that this hope is seriously endangered by a policy of premature and drastic closures.
I have here the Halifax Chronicle-Herald-


Howard Russell MacEwan: Will the hon. member permit one short question at this point?


Hédard-J. Robichaud: Yes.


Howard Russell MacEwan: Can he advise the committee of the names of those who signed the resolution or the petition to which he referred?


Hédard-J. Robichaud: I do not have here the signatures on the resolution, but a copy bearing signatures was presented to the Prime Minister and I think it has been referred to in this house in questions which were addressed to the Prime Minister asking if such a resolution had been received.


Mr. Browne (St. John's West):: What date was it?


Hédard-J. Robichaud: I have not the date here but I know I can get it. The resolution has been presented and questions have been asked in the house. When I take my seat I think I can find out and give the minister the information.
I have the Halifax Chronicle-Herald for Wednesday, May 31, in which we find the unfortunate news: "Displaced Miners Register with Unemployment Insurance Commission Tomorrow". That is the subheading which appears under the main heading: "Curtains for Caledonia". I will not refer to that part

of the news but further down we find this. I mentioned the resolution which was presented by the Catholic clergy from the Cape Breton area. This item has as its title: "Bishop Urges Churchmen Remember Miners Plight". It is dated from Sydney and it reads in part as follows:
Deep concern for the people affected In the coal mine closures and a call to the church to recognize its responsibilities to its people in their need, was sounded Tuesday by Rt. Rev. R. H. Waterman, Bishop of Nova Scotia, in his charge to clergy and laity meeting in the shadow of the province's economic crisis for their annual synod.
"We cannot remain indifferent or unconcerned about the welfare of our brothers in this populous area of our province and our diocese," Bishop Waterman said, "Our deepest concern, in this and other areas is lest people should be forgotten in a concern for profits."
There is set out, then, the recommendation which I will not take the time of this committee to read. It shows the grave concern of the areas which are affected following the closure of these mines.
I have here a copy of a telegram which was addressed to the Prime Minister under date of May 24, 1961. This telegram is signed by mayor R. F. Gilroy and A. J. Mason, chairman of the citizens' committee of the town of Springhill. I think it should be placed on record because it has to do with the displacement of coal miners. It reads as follows:
Sir, according to press reports, you and your government are prepared to take immediate action to alleviate the economic depression which is bound to occur in Cape Breton as a result of the proposed closures of mines by the Dominion Steel and Coal Corporation. Such action on your part is commendable indeed. Evidence of the priority which you are prepared to give to this important matter is the fact that the special committee appointed by you consists of no less than five ministers of cabinet rank. This committee is working in conjunction with Charles Vaughan who has been specifically appointed by premier Robert Stanfield to deal with the same matter. In view of the fact that a special delegation from Spring-hill recently presented a brief to some of those same cabinet ministers regarding the deplorable situation existing in Springhill also resulting from Dosco's closing of all our mines here over four years ago, our citizens in Springhill are disappointed that you did not see fit to take similar action during 1958 and 1959 on behalf of the then 900 unemployed miners of this community. We respectfully submit that a first priority for economic relief of distressed communities in Nova Scotia should be given the Springhill area in order to fulfil the assurances regarding the economic rehabilitation of this community and its brave people made by your government and the government of the province of Nova Scotia immediately following the mine disasters of 1956 and 1958. Respectfully submitted on behalf of the town council, the citizens' industrial committee, the board of trade, the Lions club, the local union No. 4514, and citizens, following a meeting held Tuesday, May 23, 1961.
There is certain proof of a plea to the government from the citizens of the areas concerned to take some definite action to remedy
1, 1961	5737
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys this most unfortunate situation. In his announcement on Tuesday, May 30, as reported at page 5567 of Hansard, the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys mentioned two measures which were being introduced to partly take care of the situation. As a result I am glad to hear that one of the mines will extend its operations for a period of one year, but unfortunately the other two mines will probably close as scheduled.
In making this announcement the minister stated:
These two measures are being introduced to deal with the specific and immediate situation in the coal mining areas. The government of Canada is continuing to study the long term problems involved and the recommendations on the subject by the royal commission on coal, and further announcements will be made from time to time.
Before resuming my seat, Mr. Chairman, I would ask the minister not to delay these announcements; not to wait a period of four or five months, as he has done, to notify the house that he has received the report of the interdepartmental committee which was appointed to study the recommendations of the Rand report.
As I said before, I do not entirely agree with the recommendations of the Rand report. They would seriously affect the coal mines of New Brunswick. It appears that should the recommendations be implemented as such, the New Brunswick coal producers would be at a disadvantage compared with the Nova Scotia producers. The spread in subsidy payments between the two provinces is too apparent and will certainly be discriminating against the New Brunswick coal producers.
Furthermore, there is another recommendation in the Rand report to which there is objection. That is the restriction of subsidy payments to operators producing over 50,000 tons per year and the freezing in connection with existing operators to the maximum tonnage of the past three years. This will in effect prevent the modernization of present-day mining methods in the New Brunswick coal fields.
I may have further remarks to make on this matter, Mr. Chairman, but I feel I should resume my seat at this time. Again I wish to thank the minister for his statement and I urge the government to take definite action, not next year but at once, and evolve a long term policy which will take care of the displaced miners and will not only have the effect of further delaying closures of the Cape Breton mines.


Hazen Robert Argue: Mr. Chairman, I rise to support the remarks made in favour of assistance to the coal mines and the coal miners of Nova Scotia. I think hon. members from all parts of the country recognize that there is a
5738	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys serious situation affecting the coal mines in Nova Scotia. I think all of us support the vote that is being requested, and if there is criticism of the vote it will be that the amount is not adequate to deal with the conditions in that area.
In outlining in a very detailed way the purposes of the vote and the conditions in coal mines generally across the country, I think the minister held out very little hope for the future of the coal mining industry or coal miners themselves. When you take the minister's statement of this evening in conjunction with earlier announcements, it appears to me that the government, far from evolving a long term coal policy that would maintain the production of the coal industry in an efficient manner, is damning and condemning this industry to complete disaster and a final and complete shutting down. I do not think there is any other interpretation that hon. members can place upon the remarks made by the minister.
The minister says the government is working on a long term program; that the government is working on long term solutions; but as the government works on these so-called long term solutions it is allowing one mine after another to be closed down, the industry wrapped up and in very large part terminated.
I think it is difficult for anyone to argue in favour of maintaining an industry that is uneconomic and inefficient; but even if one should put this industry in that category I think there are particular reasons why the suffering that comes from a further shutdown in the mines should not be allowed.
I can see no economic advantage to the nation in closing down the Caledonia mine, putting the miners on relief and allowing suffering among the unemployed. The only way you can deal with the coal mining situation in a fair and equitable manner is in a full employment economy, and as long as there is widespread unemployment in the maritime provinces, and in Nova Scotia in particular, all the government's policy does is compound the misery that now exists.
As strongly as I can I want to tell the government that its policy is a failure as far as Nova Scotia is concerned. It is a failure as far as parliament is concerned. It is an admission of failure to keep on postponing this so-called long term policy while step by step the government allows the mines to be shut down, the industry wrapped up and the unemployed coal miners to suffer.
Many studies have been made of the coal mining industry in the past; many reports have been brought forward. One would expect


that the government would take the information contained in these reports, come to some conclusions, announce a policy and go forward with that policy.
I tried on an earlier occasion this session by way of a motion to have the Vissac report made available to the house. This, the government refused to do. It buried the report. It concealed another report. It made this a secret document on the grounds that it was interdepartmental or had been prepared by a member of the coal board. I should like to know from the minister if he will tell me some of the recommendations contained in the Vissac report and why the government has felt it wise to cover up or conceal the recommendations which it contained. I understand that while that report has not been disclosed in the House of Commons, in the areas affected it has been in circulation and is relatively well known at least to some people who are closely connected with the industry.
I have in my hand a report of the royal commission on coal, 1959, and I could deal with it in various stages. I have been informed that this is the Vissac report. Looking through it I see nothing which would warrant the government concealing it. I cannot myself vouch that it is the Vissac report, but someone sent it to me through the mail and said that is what it is. The minister can deny, if he likes, that it is the report. There are some important recommendations in this document. The authors say that deep shafts must be put down near the water's edge if the mines are to be efficient. This, they say, is the way to cut down costs in the industry and enable it to carry on efficiently.
The proposals are contained in part 3 and they appear on page 27 of this document. The first item is headed "Subventions". This, I imagine, would give the minister sufficient information for him to be able to confirm or deny, if he wishes to do so, that this is the Vissac report. I think a report of this kind should be made available to all members of the house when the coal industry is being considered. I think we should be in possession of all the information that is available. I see nothing here which would suggest to me that the government is warranted in having concealed this document. My motion having been turned down in the House of Commons I am pleased that someone-I do not know who-should have put this in the mail and sent it to me with a note saying, this is the Vissac report.


Donald MacInnis: Would the hon. member permit me to ask him a question? In reviewing the so-called Vissac report has he found in it any solution to the problem faced by the Nova Scotia miners?


Hazen Robert Argue: I would say there are some suggestions-


An hon. Member:: Answer the question.


Hazen Robert Argue: I think some of the suggestions as to increasing the efficiency of the industry are important. But that is an appropriate question for the hon. member to address to the minister. The minister is the person responsible. He has the report. He would not give it to us. He has it, so ask the minister what he thinks is wrong with the Vissac report. Apparently he does think something is wrong because he has not brought in a policy. To one who is not an expert on the coal industry this report does seem to contain some suggestions which warrant consideration and which call for a statement from the minister.
I think the government has adopted the worst possible attitude. The attitude taken by the government is to drift, to postpone, to procrastinate, to allow, as it did yesterday, one of the coal mines to end its operations, putting miners out of work. The only concrete policy the government has as far as I know is the establishment of a scheduled date for the closing of two more mines. If the government is going to need time-it may need time; it may need more time than it has got- in order to formulate a policy I say that during that time coal miners should not be put out on the street. When the government says it intends to formulate a long range policy to deal with this situation I contend that in the meantime the mines should be kept in operation and the miners should be kept in employment. They should not be put out of work while the government continues to procrastinate and postpone.


Eldon Mattison Woolliams: Would the hon. member permit a question? Coming from a coal mining constituency in Alberta I have listened with great interest to the hon. member for Assiniboia. Would he say that the strip miners who can produce at 50 per cent less cost than the coal miners who work in the mines, should be prevented from stripping coal and doing it at 50 per cent of the cost? I am interested in the hon. member's answer.


Hazen Robert Argue: Only a man with legal training could take a question like that with real seriousness.


Eldon Mattison Woolliams: On a point of order. I would say on a point of order, Mr. Chairman, that if the leader or the hopeful leader of the C.C.F. party does not know the answer to that question it is clear he knows nothing about coal mining in western Canada.


Hazen Robert Argue: I did not think even the hon. member for Bow River would support so strongly the statement I made a moment ago,
1, 1961	5739
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys namely that only a legal mind such as his could concoct a question like that. Then he rose on a phony point of order, as even he is aware. This is the same old question. The hon. member says that if we are going to help the coal mniers of Nova Scotia we are bound to do damage to coal miners who are stripping coal instead of mining deep coal. That is the answer of the Tory party. It is the nearest thing to a policy I have heard tonight. Evidently there is no unity in the Tory party on this question. It is obvious that the hon. gentleman is not expressing support for an improvement of the disastrous conditions which affect the coal miners of Nova Scotia.
On other occasions this session I have asked the minister whether the government was making any progress in discussions with the Ontario hydro commission for the further use of coal in new plants which are being constructed. I should like to repeat that question tonight for the record. I should like to have a report from the minister on what progress is being made to develop a larger market with the Ontario hydro for Nova Scotia coal.
It has already been said that a capital development commission is necessary for the maritimes. I suggest that one way the government could deal with this whole situation would be to provide a large sum of money for a maritime development commission. This money could be used to assist the mines, to assist in the development of new industries, to improve economic conditions in Nova Scotia and the maritimes generally so that unnecessary hardship of this kind could be avoided.
I criticize the government not for what it is doing, but for what it is not doing, for its lack of policy and its failure to tell parliament what its policy will be, and its failure in the meantime to prevent suffering, loss of employment and loss of income among the miners until such time as the government has formulated a long term policy.


Eldon Mattison Woolliams: I should like to ask the hon. member a question. He has taken his seat but will he answer one question. What will he do about the Alberta soft coal in the bituminous areas which is in competition with natural gas and petroleum. Natural gas is now being used to heat the farms and the homes in urban centres where coal was used for this purpose. What would the hon. member do about this situation?


Hazen Robert Argue: I can tell the hon. member that if it were my responsibility there would be a policy in very short order.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Why not ask the hon. member what he would do?


Donald MacInnis: The hon. member for Assiniboia is an hon. gentleman who has been

Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys brought to the attention of hon. members as the potential leader of this so-called New party. I call to his attention the fact that according to the C.B.C. the other evening the other potential leader of the party announced that he had no intention of running in the riding of the hon. member for Assiniboia, and that he is not going to shoulder the hon. member aside. The hon. member can rest assured that he will have a riding to run in. He is not going to be shouldered aside.
The hon. member has indicated that if he had the opportunity to bring it about a policy would be announced in a very short time. I call his attention to the fact that the other potential leader has already announced his views on the coal situation. At a seminar in Montreal very recently he said he considered that coal was obsolete. This makes him very popular with the Cape Breton miners.
Mention was made of the Vissac report. I should like to take a few moments to say a few words on that report. Mr. Rand was considered an outstanding man in the labour field. He was appointed as chairman of the royal commission on coal. Everybody was in agreement on that. His reputation was such that we believed we could expect a very fine report from this gentleman. Of course, in all fairness, let it be said that the Prime Minister could not be accused of being politically partisan about the choice. We all know the political affiliations of Mr. Rand.
Following the presentation of the report, an interdepartmental committee was set up to study it. Is it any wonder that the committee has taken as long as it has to come to a decision on a report such as this? I passed my opinion on the Rand report 2\ hours after I saw it for the first time. I had made up my mind that it was not what we could rightfully expect. I call the committee's attention for a moment to page 15 of the report. This is what we find:
What are left to these three modes of energy, apart from metallurgy and the chemical field, are large space heating, fuel for light and heavy industry, and thermal power. On the assumptions mentioned, if not at the moment, then within ten or fifteen years, in these there will probably be a field of competition into which coal may more effectively enter.
Anybody who studies the report can turn to pages 24 and 25 where this will be found:
Within a period of say 15 years, supporting alternative sources of economic activity may be at a level permitting such a reduction without severe dislocation of men or community.
This is a direct contradiction of what the commissioner said 9 or 10 pages previously. If we turn to page 42 we shall find a further contradiction. Here the commissioner goes on to say:
What may be suggested is that beyond 10 or 15 years-


The same number of years as mentioned previously in which he stated that coal could more effectively enter the market. I continue:
What may be suggested is that beyond 10 or 15 years coal may be pushed still further into the background of fuels.
This is only a very slight indication of the number of contradictions that are to be found in this report. Is it any wonder that an interdepartmental committee had to take so much time to decipher what is meant? I should like to point out for the benefit of hon. members that the interdepartmental committee was set up to study the financial recommendations of the report and nothing else. The terms of reference of the committee did not contain anything whatsoever with respect to the closing of any collieries. They were specifically directed to study the financial recommendations of Mr. Rand.
Now the Vissac report comes into the picture. What happened was that the coal board was studying the Rand report. They found that it was not an easy task for a group of men sitting around a table to exchange ideas and put them across in that type of meeting. Therefore it was decided that each individual would take it upon himself to make a finding on the report and then exchange their findings among the group. This so-called Vissac report seemed to have everything.
I corresponded with the chairman of the dominion coal board and was advised by the then chairman, Mr. Uren, that this report was not to circulate outside the confines of the coal board itself. It was a departmental document and was not available to me at that time as a member of parliament. I had serious doubts as to whether or not it was confined within the board or department. In fact, I might go so far as to say I was quite sure it was circulated in Nova Scotia. Following upon the receipt of the correspondence from Mr. Uren I sent forward this information. That is the only thing I could have done. I was instructed that the report was circulated nowhere outside the board and was not available to me. I passed on this information to different locals. After I had done so it was brought to my attention by the executive of the united mine workers that they would send the report on to me in order to bring me up to date on what was going on in Ottawa.
The minister of mines in the Nova Scotia legislature had a copy of this report. He was asked to table it but he did not do so. He informed the Nova Scotia legislature that it was given to him as a confidential document and therefore he could not table it. I therefore suspect that everybody else who had it, had it under a confidential arrangement.

I have asked the hon. member for Assini-boia whether he found anything in the Vissac report pertaining to the situation in Nova Scotia that would give him any satisfaction. He said he found certain recommendations in the report which he felt would be of assistance if they were implemented. I would call to his attention the fact that he is not in agreement with the executive of the united mine workers because they made it quite clear as of November of last year that they had the report available and did not circulate it among the miners to whom they were supposed to be directing their assistance. At no time did they bring it to the attention of the local unions. They could not have been of the opinion that the Vissac report-


Hazen Robert Argue: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. It has been said I made the statement that this report contained solutions to the coal mining industry problem. This question was asked of me when I was speaking and I said I thought there were sufficient recommendations in the report to warrant-


Some hon. Members:: That is not a point of order.


Hazen Robert Argue: -this question being directed to the minister. I wanted to know from the minister if he thought it contained any valuable recommendations.


Donald MacInnis: The hon. member is confused and the committee realizes he is by his own confession no expert on coal. Therefore I think he would depend on the information fed to him by the party supporters who are also among the executive directors of the united mine workers who have sat on that report since last November. They had it in their possession and if there was anything in it of any value to the miners of Cape Breton it was their solemn duty to circulate it among the men locally so they could have had the benefit of anything that Mr. Vissac saw fit to write. They failed to do that. I was ridiculed for not being able to get hold of the Vissac report in order to make it available to the members of the united mine workers but the same executive officers who saw fit to ridicule me admitted later that the report was available in their own executive offices last November. If it was as valuable as they claimed it was, why did they not use it among the miners?
I should like to come back to the remarks of the hon. member for Gloucester. Again we have had the rendition of a speech written by someone else.


Hédard-J. Robichaud: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I had no written speech.
1. 1961	5741
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys


Donald MacInnis: I will have to apologize to the hon. member. However, in lieu of more appropriate words may I say I am greatly surprised that one person should put together such a mess of inaccuracy. There was nothing accurate about anything he had to say other than the resolutions and correspondence he read which had been sent to him from Nova Scotia.
The hon. member made reference to production. He quoted some figures and he pointed out to the committee how the mining industry was backsliding. I should like to quote from Tuesday's Hansard certain statements with respect to conditions in the Nova Scotia mines. I should like first of all to call attention to the fact that not only did this member set himself up as an expert on coal mines but this self-advertised, self-appointed coal critic for the official opposition has made but one visit to Cape Breton, has seen the operations in Cape Breton on only one occasion and to my knowledge has never returned. Yet he has advertised himself and set himself up as the coal critic for the official opposition. I should like to call attention to page 5567 of Hansard and what the hon. member said following the minister's announcement last Tuesday. The hon. member said in part:
However, as the minister indicated, this is an alternative assistance to prevent the immediate closure of the mines involved-
It is clearly indicated here, Mr. Chairman, that the hon. gentleman has no interest whatsoever because the minister's announcement in no way contained any assurance that the mines involved were going to be saved. If he had any interest in this particular matter he would have known that over a week ago the local papers carried the story that the Caledonia colliery would close not today, as he indicated this evening, but yesterday. If he had any personal interest in the Cape Breton mines he would have been aware of the fact that it was carried in the public press last week that the mines would be closed. The hon. member also said last Tuesday:
The house and the country know very well that as early as 1958, at the time of the first major post-war shutdown-
He has tried to indicate to the house and to the country, Mr. Chairman, that the first major post-war shutdown took place in 1958 after the present government had taken office. I should like to bring him up to date on what has gone on. I have a list here that will show clearly not only to the house and the country but especially to the hon. member for Gloucester just when these shutdowns started and what was done about the matter or, to put it more accurately, what was not done about it. The list covers a total of 34
5742	HOUSE OF COMMONS
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys mines in the province of Nova Scotia which were closed between 1946 and 1956 under a Liberal administration that did not even see fit to call a coal conference.
I might even go further and say that when the former prime minister, Mr. St. Laurent, decided to call the premiers to Ottawa for a dominion-provincial conference Mr. Henry Hicks, the then premier of Nova Scotia, did not even attend the conference for the purpose of discussing coal problems or any other problems. He saw fit to go to a Liberal rally at Lunenburg. When the miners were faced with a problem in 1956 the same Mr. Hicks referred to them as wildcatters and told the miners at a meeting the following day that they could not expect him to forgo his election commitments to meet with them. That is the type of treatment we got from the Liberals between 1946 and 1956. The hon. member for Gloucester likes to refer to 1958 but I will bring him up to date with respect to what happened during that period.
Broughton mine closed in December, 1949. Dominion No. IB closed in July, 1955, Dominion No. 2 in December, 1949, Dominion No. 11 in November, 1949, Dominion No. 24 in October, 1953. I might say that among these were some of the biggest producers in the coal fields. Lloyds No. 7 closed in April,
1956,	Sullivan closed in March, 1946, Bras d'Or No. 5 in February, 1946, Franklin in May, 1957, Springhill No. 1 in July, 1954, Springhill No. 4 in November, 1956. May I say here that I am not referring to the Springhill closures in the same sense as other closures primarily because these mines were forced to close as the result of very serious and sorrowful disasters. Hillcrest closed in March, 1947, Filor in March, 1955, Jubilee in October, 1951, River Hebert in October, 1948, Riverside in August, 1951, Strathcona No. 2 in March, 1947, Waddell in November, 1952, Chignecto in May, 1948, Acadia No. 7 in October, 1947, Albion and McGregor in January, 1957, Allan in June, 1951, Wadden in January, 1953, Milford No. 2 in February,
1957,	Campbell No. 1 in January, 1958, Chimney Corner in October, 1952, Inverness in September, 1951, Macdonald No. 1 in March,
1952,	Macdonald No. 2 in January, 1953, Macdonald No. 3 in April, 1955, Macdonald No. 5 in March, 1953, MacEachern in December,
1953,	Mabou in October, 1951, McLellan in December, 1957, Rosebank No. 1 in May, 1946, Rosebank No. 2 in April, 1957, Rose-bank No. 5 in March, 1957, McDonald (Ches-tico) in March, 1949 and Kemptown in November, 1947.
That list clearly answers the reference of the hon. member for Gloucester to closures in 1958 and proves once and for all that the Liberals were the ones who laid down on
[Mr. Maclnnls.l
the job and did nothing whatsoever to prevent any of those mines closing. I apologize for repetition but perhaps I might say something about the coal policies of the former administration. The hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate likes to take exception to this but he was asked to apologize publicly in a front-page editorial. On a number of occasions he asked for the reference to this editorial and I gave it to him some time ago. He can clearly see for himself that he has been asked to apologize publicly for taking exception to the remarks of the Prime Minister.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I wonder whether I could ask the hon. member a question. He has just said that he gave me that editorial. Can he tell me when he gave it to me?


Donald MacInnis: The hon. member has quite purposely misinterpreted what I said. I did not say I gave him the editorial. I said that I gave him an indication of where the editorial was to be found, the reference.


John Whitney Pickersgill: It was in a newspaper.


Donald MacInnis: I gave him the date. I might point out to the hon. member that it cost me approximately $2.50 to get it for myself and he has the same opportunity. I was interested enough to get it in the form of a wire.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I got mine free.


Donald MacInnis: I notice you got it the cheap way. I was going to refer to the former prime minister's policy on coal. He wanted to leave it in the ground for future generations in order to manufacture synthetic materials.


John Whitney Pickersgill: That statement is false.


Donald MacInnis: He said to leave it in the ground. I might also point out to the hon. member something that was carried in the public press, that the former minister of fisheries received threats that he would be ridden out of a Nova Scotia town on a rail because of his remarks about the coal industry. I should like to hear the hon. member defend that.
Now, Mr. Chairman, I realize what I have said here this evening has not done anything on behalf of the Nova Scotia miners. However, I am quite sure hon. members opposite would not dare go down to Cape Breton and tell the miners what they did because the miners are well aware of what they did not do. These remarks I have made have done nothing to alleviate the situation.
I am very sorry to hear that the colliery in which I worked prior to coming to Ottawa has been closed down. I should like to say that at all times I have put forth every effort to prevent the collieries from closing.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Donald MacInnis: I might say that in January of this year I made a remark for which I was severely criticized. No doubt the opposition has been made aware of this situation. I made the remark that I did not think the 800 miners at Caledonia were getting the support from their executive officers which they could rightly expect. There has been a rumour circulating at home within the last month or so that one colliery was going to be saved. I am very grateful to the minister and to this government for the efforts they have made to save this colliery. There is no doubt that it is the largest producer of the group, and if this mine were to close it would have a most disastrous effect. I am most grateful to the government for the efforts expended on behalf of this one mine.
I was severely criticized for saying the union executive was not giving the men the support they could rightly expect. The rumour which was spread throughout Cape Breton in recent weeks has become a fact. There is no doubt in my mind that arrangements were made between the union executive and the Dominion Coal Company in order to bring about a local preference. Once again, I want to mention the saving of one colliery because it is my belief that the union executive acted in bad faith when they did not continue to press for the continued operation of the three collieries. The executive should not have made any arrangement of any kind until the last shot was fired. They have indicated, by a local preference, that they were willing to give up on the other two collieries that were in danger. This is the type of representation we can expect from anybody who would support the New party.
I have continually pressed for the operation of these three collieries. So far as I am concerned, I have complete knowledge of the arrangement that has been made between the executive officers and the Dominion Coal Company. Now, the opposition may jump with glee, both the Liberals and the C.C.F., and say, "There is Maclnnis making a statement that is going to be political suicide". I want to tell this committee, here and now, that my seat in this house does not mean as much to me as the operation of the mines in Cape Breton. If it takes political suicide on my part to bring out the truth in connection with this matter, I will bring it out.
I would be doing a disservice to the miners and the different locals throughout Cape Breton if I did not make them aware of the fact they are not getting the representation from their union executive that they deserve.
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
What will come after this, Mr. Chairman? The remarks I have just made will be used over and over again during the election campaign. However, so far as I am concerned, I say again that the seat in the House of Commons does not mean as much to me as the welfare of these miners. I will bring out the truth now and any other time in respect of these conditions whenever I have an opportunity to do so; that is what I am doing now. The union executive failed the miners by not making representations down the line.
The hon. member for Gloucester referred to certain recommendations made by the union, namely the one cent tariff on imported oil. If anyone wishes to give this proposal consideration for a moment, he will realize that a tariff on oil imported into this country will do only one thing. It will increase the competition with which the coal industry is faced. This proposal will not do anything for the Canadian coal producer. If the tariff is such that it is going to knock off Canadian competition, it will only bring about an opportunity for the United States producers.
This leads me to the consideration of another point, Mr. Chairman. As early as 1952 and 1953, I advocated, in our awn local union, that if Nova Scotia miners wanted to clear up the problems in respect of coal imported from the United States it was a matter of inter-union policy. At that time John L. Lewis in the United States had put himself into a position of co-operating with the coal mine owners by exporting coal and buying into the U.S. mothball fleet. My contention was that this made John L. Lewis a partner of the operators. If we wanted to avoid the importation of United States coal we could do it by working in our own backyard and getting after the president of our own international union.
This suggestion was ridiculed because there were those who put forward the argument, for their own purposes, that John L. Lewis was not an exporter of coal. I believe my opinion was confirmed within the last couple of weeks when John L. Lewis was found guilty_ by a United States court. This is a clear indication that his policies were in the interests of the large operators. I have made statements also to the effect that our own local union executive would be happy to see Mr. Lewis' policies inaugurated in Cape Breton; that is, fewer contented miners rather than a large number of discontented miners.
I have been accused of being immoral and dishonest for making this statement, and yet these same union leaders went to the international convention but never thought about getting on their feet and telling Mr. Lewis

Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys that these same policies he had put into effect in the United States were immoral and dishonest. They never thought about that, yet they referred to my statement as immoral and dishonest.
There is no doubt, Mr. Chairman, as I have said, that a lot of these statements are going to be repeated. I hope they are, because I think it is about time the air was cleared in so far as the activities of the executive officers of the union in Cape Breton are concerned.
I have been accused in the press of many things since the January 10 meeting. They have accused me of being immoral and dishonest. One executive member, the vice president, has taken it upon himself to refer to me as a non-thinker. He said I had often called him a thief and a liar publicly. For the benefit of this committee I am saying that I have never called this man a thief and a liar. I am only repeating here what I have said at local union meetings; I have never called him a thief and a liar. I did, however, on a number of occasions refer to him as a scab and a liar. I have repeated this publicly before union meetings, and I can substantiate that by written evidence.
There is no doubt that the opposition think I am digging a grave. This may be so. However, in digging that grave I hope to bring to the attention of the miners in Cape Breton that their executive have let them down and it is time the miners cleared them out. I thought we were going to hear from the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate tonight.


An hon. Member:: He is a fisherman.


Donald MacInnis: Somebody says he is a fisherman. That may be true because all he spoke about down there was the tides that are running. They are running. Regardless of how he sees it, the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate knows that they are not running strong enough. His party will possibly come to the same grief as did his ship not too many years ago.
Before I resume my seat, Mr. Chairman, I should like once again to express my appreciation of the fact that at least this larger operation in Cape Breton has been salvaged for another year. It is my hope that developments will be such that in this year or possibly within a shorter time something may occur not only to save No. 16 colliery but Florence. Every effort on my part will continue, although the hon. member for Assini-boia seems to take objection to the fact that I have put forward certain efforts. He has denied the existence of certain correspondence. I invited other members of his party to rise in their places and deny that they had received this correspondence but they did not answer. After all, their preachments about

and their interest in the coal mine situation is for one reason only and we are fully aware of what it is.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I have no desire to enter into the private quarrel between the hon. member for Cape Breton South and the officers of the U.M.W. in his riding. I will leave that matter to them. Nor have I any particular interest in traversing the history from the years 1946 to 1956-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Donald MacInnis: Will the hon. member permit a question?


John Whitney Pickersgill: No, I will not permit a question until-


An hon. Member:: You cannot answer it.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I will not permit a question until I have finished my sentence. I say I have no particular interest in traversing the period from 1946 to 1956. However, if the hon. gentleman wishes it, I shall be very happy to do so before these estimates are passed. The situation with which we are faced today in Cape Breton ought to be talked about, not the situation existing between 1946 and 1956.


Donald MacInnis: Will the hon. member permit a question?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Yes; if the hon. gentleman wishes to ask one.


Donald MacInnis: Will the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate not agree that it was not I who started to traverse history but rather the hon. member for Gloucester?


John Whitney Pickersgill: I am not interested in arguing about that matter. What I am interested in is the fact that yesterday when I was in Sydney and Glace Bay a mine was closed. On August 1 another mine is going to be closed and hundreds of men are going to be thrown out of work with no alternative jobs. That is the situation in 1961.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


John Whitney Pickersgill: We in this committee cannot do anything about 1946 or 1956.


An hon. Member:: You could have done
something at one time.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Yes; and in 1946 and in 1956 a miner, if he lost a job in Cape Breton, could get a job in another mine, either in Cape Breton or somewhere else, and he did so because we had full employment in those days.


Donald MacInnis: I rise on a point of order, Mr. Chairman. The hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate has just made a statement which is so far removed from the truth-


An hon. Member:: Sit down.
Another hon. Member: There is no point of order.


The Acting Chairman (Mr. Chown):: Order. If the hon. member for Cape Breton South alleges that there has been misrepresentation of his own remarks he may rise on a point of order and correct it. However, I do not see any point of order. It sounded more like a speech.


John Whitney Pickersgill: As a matter of fact, Mr. Chairman, as I say, I am interested in talking about a situation that ought to be regarded by the government of this country as a national emergency because here is an industry-I refer to the historic and basic industry of Nova Scotia-that is dying.


An hon. Member:: You have killed it.
Another hon. Member: The Liberal party is dying, too.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Hon. gentlemen are
determined to have the history. May I say that I will give them the history. I will give it to them in two words. In 1957, the present Prime Minister of this country went about the province of Nova Scotia, led by the hand by the present premier of Nova Scotia-I refer to Mr. Stanfield-and promised the people of that province that he would increase coal production. He went all over the province and did that. He deceived those people and got their votes by his deception. That is the history. Because the then prime minister, Mr. St. Laurent, was honest and truthful enough to say that he would not seek to increase coal production but that he would maintain it, he was misrepresented all over that area.


Mr. Pallell:: I rise on a point of order, Mr. Chairman.


Gordon Campbell Chown: Will the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate take his seat?


John Whitney Pickersgill: I thought I had the floor.
Mr. Pallet!: I rose on a point of order.


Gordon Campbell Chown: The
parliamentary secretary has risen on a point of order.
Mr. Pallet!: The hon. member is so full of his own verbosity that he cannot hear. I rose on a point of order. It has been a long-established rule of the House of Commons that no allegation of deception shall be made
Supply-Mines and, Technical Surveys against any hon. member. The hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate should have enough experience to know that. I call upon him to withdraw that allegation.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I do not regard that as being a point of order and I intend to continue. It does not seem to me that these interruptions we are getting from the other side are called for. Of course, hon. gentlemen opposite do not want their conduct in the last four years to be exposed. They do not want their lack of policy to be exposed. They do not want their deception to be exposed.


John Cameron Pallett: Speaking to the point of order, Mr. Chairman, may I say that this point of order has not been disposed of.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I do not even understand what the hon. gentleman is alleging.


An hon. Member:: We did not expect you to do so.


Some hon. Members:: Withdraw.


Mr. Denis:: Withdraw the point of order.


Gordon Campbell Chown: Order. I think perhaps the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate went a little bit further than he would normally go, judging by my knowledge of him as a member of this House of Commons. Perhaps he could modify his language in that regard in his remarks now and withdraw the rather pointed use of the words "deception" and "deceive".


John Whitney Pickersgill: If the hon. member-


Gordon Campbell Chown: May I
continue? It appears that these other members think it was done with malice aforethought, so to speak, at the time. That imputation is not one that I should like to take from it. Possibly I misunderstood the hon. member. I know that he would want to withdraw the remarks if that is what he had in mind.


John Whitney Pickersgill: If you, Mr. Chairman, think that I was suggesting that when the Prime Minister went about Nova Scotia promising to increase coal production, he deliberately did not intend to do it, may I say that I did not mean any such thing.


An hon. Member:: You meant he had good intentions?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Yes; we know the place that is paved with good intentions.


An hon. Member:: And visions.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I say that the Prime Minister, led about the province of Nova Scotia by the present premier, promised to increase coal production. He did that. I have dozens of references to those promises all
5746	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys over the provinces. I said that in doing so he deceived the people into voting for him. That statement is a statement of fact.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


John Whitney Pickersgill: There has not been any increase in production. There has been a steady and increasing reduction of production which has followed. That is what I said. Of course, I do not think the Prime Minister knew enough about coal mining to have the faintest idea whether or not he could increase production. To quote one of the Prime Minister's colleagues, it was just another election promise. But my right hon. friend Mr. St. Laurent was also pilloried by both those gentlemen all over Nova Scotia-
Mr. Pallet!: I rise on a point of order.


John Whitney Pickersgill: -because he was honest enough and truthful enough to say-
Mr. Pallet!: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, the hon. member still has not withdrawn the remark about deception, and in fact he reiterated it. Your Honour has ruled that the hon. member has to withdraw the remark about obtaining votes by the use of deception, which is what the hon. member said and repeated. He knows this offends the rules. His emotions may be a little close to the surface because of the events of the last few days, but still he should act as a parliamentarian.


Gordon Campbell Chown: I still take the view that, as provided in Beau-chesne's fourth edition, the applicable rule under citation 155 is as follows:
It will be useful to give examples here of expressions which are unparliamentary and call for prompt interference. These may be classified as follows:
1.	The imputation of false or unavowed motives.
2.	The misrepresentation of the language of another and the accusation of misrepresentation.
3.	Charges of uttering a deliberate falsehood.
The word "deliberate" was used by the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate-


Hédard-J. Robichaud: No.


John Whitney Pickersgill: No, I never used the word "deliberate".


Hédard-J. Robichaud: No; the hon. member said he did not use it.


Gordon Campbell Chown: Order. I thought I heard the hon. member use the words "deliberately deceived". However, the word "deceived" itself implies to the Chair that there was some knowledge, or that the promise was made knowingly as one that could not be fulfilled. I think the language


could be modified and I would ask the hon. member if he would do that, as is his custom in this chamber.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I do not want to waste any further time, sir, and therefore 1 will say, particularly as Your Honour helped me a bit by using the word "knowledge", that I do not think the Prime Minister had any knowledge of the subject when he made those promises. I think it was simply an irresponsible promise. I put it this way: The promise was that coal production would be increased; the fact is that it has steadily and increasingly gone down. I will accept whatever Your Honour likes to call that. You can substitute any word you like, and I should like to go on with my speech. The fact of the matter is that because the Tory party promised, and got votes by promising, to increase coal production, they have never dared to face the facts of this problem.
Mr. Pallet!: Would the hon. member be good enough to give the reference of that particular statement to which he now refers.


John Whitney Pickersgill: If the hon. gentleman wants a few of them, I will give him lots of them and I will give them tomorrow in my own time.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I refuse to be diverted by these-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


John Whitney Pickersgill: -questions from the point I am seeking to make. The point I am seeking to make is that anybody has been able to see ever since that slow down, to which my hon. friend from Gloucester referred, in 1958-


Mr. Henderson:: He was in the oil business.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Well, no doubt-


Gordon Campbell Chown: Order.


Walter Clarence Henderson: He was in the oil business; he wasn't interested in coal.


Gordon Campbell Chown: I think the hon. member who has the floor should be given a little more adequate hearing and I would ask the committee to refrain from these persistent interjections and hear him out.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I think it is really rather astounding, when you realize that the closing yesterday of this old mine that has been going for so many years and has provided a livelihood for so many of our fellow citizens leaving people with no alternative employment, seems to be a laughing matter to hon. gentlemen

opposite. I can tell them it is no laughing matter in Cape Breton. I am anxious to speak about this matter seriously and about what should be done now, and hon. gentlemen seem much more interested in going into the past than in considering what ought to be done about it now.


Mr. Sevigny:: What do you suggest?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Allow me to make the suggestions, instead of constantly interrupting.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Gordon Campbell Chown: Order.


John Whitney Pickersgill: The plain fact is that this government does not want any suggestions about this or anything else. They got suggestions from Mr. Rand last October and immediately appointed another committee to consider his suggestions; and now they have appointed a third committee to consider the report of that committee, and they are going to postpone that until after these estimates are over so that parliament cannot discuss the problem.
They got some other committee to provide another report, which the hon. member for Cape Breton South properly said was concealed by this government from parliament but distributed to everybody else. I agree with the hon. member in protesting against the conduct of the government and its disrespect of parliament in that regard. The plain fact is the government do not want this subject debated. They do not want attention drawn to it; they emphatically do not want to do anything about it because they have not the foggiest idea what to do.


Joseph Pierre Albert Sévigny: What do you suggest?


John Whitney Pickersgill: I suggest that if hon. gentlemen opposite had kept some of the promises they made in Moncton in 1957-


An hon. Member:: We did.


John Whitney Pickersgill: -and if they had set up
the capital grants commission that they promised; if they had undertaken the program for the decentralization of industry that they promised-


An hon. Member:: We did.


John Whitney Pickersgill: -if they had arranged for the adjustment of freight rates that they promised; if they had given a preference in defence expenditures to that area which they promised, all those things could have helped the economy of Cape Breton over the last four years. But all those promises have been disregarded.


Joseph Pierre Albert Sévigny: What about your own suggestions?
1, 1961	5747
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys


An hon. Member:: They gave three-ring circuses.


Mr. Crouse:: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman-


Gordon Campbell Chown: Order.


Lloyd Roseville Crouse: Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate has just made a statement that has no basis in fact. He said that none of these promises that were made in Moncton had been implemented-


John Whitney Pickersgill: That is not a point of order. Am I to be interrupted constantly?


Lloyd Roseville Crouse: Practically all the Atlantic resolutions have been implemented and I have in my hands the Atlantic resolutions as advertised at that time.


Gordon Campbell Chown: Order. If the hon. member for Queens-Lunenburg has a question to ask the hon. member, that is in order; but he has not raised a point of order.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, I wish to go on.


Lloyd Roseville Crouse: Practically all these resolutions have been implemented-


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, if the hon. gentleman has finished his babbling, may I go on? When I was interrupted I had cited four of the promises that were made at Moncton which have not been kept and which, if they had been kept, would have helped to stimulate the economy of the whole Cape Breton region. It is perfectly evident, and it has been perfectly evident, as the minister was honest enough to admit this evening,-


An hon. Member:: Answer the question.


John Whitney Pickersgill: -that because of technological advances of one kind and another the demand for coal is decreasing-


Joseph Pierre Albert Sévigny: That is right.


John Whitney Pickersgill: -and it is not going to increase, but that is not what was said when hon. gentlemen opposite were trying to get themselves elected. They said it would increase. They deceived the people by telling them they would increase it.


Joseph Pierre Albert Sévigny: What about your suggestions; we have not heard them?


Donald MacInnis: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order-


John Whitney Pickersgill: It is perfectly obvious, it seems to me-


Donald MacInnis: Mr. Chairman, the hon. member has just made a statement that we made
5748	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys certain promises to get ourselves elected. I defy him or any other hon. member of this committee to pick out any such promises that I made. I made no election promises on coal or anything else.


John Whitney Pickersgill: That is not a point of order.


Gordon Campbell Chown: Order.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Apparently the hon. member, who was at Moncton at that meeting-at least, his picture was there-did not read the resolutions that he-


Eldon Mattison Woolliams: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman-


Gordon Campbell Chown: Order. Is the hon. member rising on a point of order?


Eldon Mattison Woolliams: Yes, Mr. Chairman. I
thought this evening we were going to listen to something about coal, and all we have had is a lot of fishy information. I wonder whether we could get back to the subject matter.


An hon. Member:: That is no point of order.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, this is a new form of closure. We first have the mines closed and then, when a member gets up to speak about the closing of the mines, supporters of the government try to shut his mouth. That is the way the Tory party respects the rights of parliament.


Mr. Horner (Jasper-Edson):: The hon. member talks about the closing of mines. I want to ask him-


Gordon Campbell Chown: Would
the hon. member take his seat, please?


An hon. Member:: Name him. Throw him out.


Gordon Campbell Chown: I shall have to ask hon. members to refrain from rising on excuses, fictitious or otherwise, to interrupt the hon. member who has the floor. I do not feel he has received a fair hearing and I would ask hon. members to refrain from rising on anything other than genuine points of order and also to refrain from making continuous interruptions which make it impossible for even the Chair to hear what the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate has to say.


John Whitney Pickersgill: As I was saying-
Mr. Pallet!: Would the hon. gentleman permit a question?


John Whitney Pickersgill: No. As I was saying, it has been known by the present government since 1958 that there was not available through any of the ordinary existing commercial channels a market for even the amount of coal which was then being produced. The government


agreed, therefore, to a holiday in 1958 and production in one way or another has been decreasing ever since. It is true that some expedients have been used and the government has always had our support in these expedients, to lengthen the time of the operation and to lengthen the period during which this matter could be considered. Because the government asked for time, first by appointing a royal commission and then because certain other measures were being pursued, in order to find a solution to this problem, the opposition, I think, showed a great deal of patience. The government have known for 15 months that they were faced with the closing of two or three mines this spring. They have allowed one of them to close and they intend to allow another to close without having taken a single step to provide alternative employment of any kind for the men who are being displaced.


Joseph Pierre Albert Sévigny: What do you suggest?


John Whitney Pickersgill: I suggest that the people elected to govern this country should govern it instead of asking the Liberals to do so. I suggest it was their duty many months ago to provide alternative employment and not to come here the day before the first mine is closed and say "Here is $1,500,000 to help these people but we do not know how to spend it; we invite suggestions."


Eldon Mattison Woolliams: Is this on coal?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Yes, it was in the minister's statement on coal but no doubt the hon. member was not here, or if he was here he was not listening. It is set out at page 5567 of Hansard.


Mr. Horner (Acadia):: You were not here.


John Whitney Pickersgill: True, I was not here. I was down at the coal mines.
Mr. Pallet!: Is the hon. member objecting to that expenditure?


John Whitney Pickersgill: No. I would just like to know exactly what the money is going to be spent on.
These are the minister's words as reported on page 5567:
Parliament will therefore be asked to provide an amount of $1.5 million which will be set aside for approved projects to provide alternative employment this year in the Cape Breton area. Such projects will be considered on their individual merits taking into account the degree of participation by the province in each case.
Good Lord. They let the mine close, and the day before, they say, "We shall ask parliament to appropriate $1.5 million but we have not the faintest idea what will be done with it; we hope someone will come along with a few suggestions." That is the policy of this government. That is what they

are asking us to support. That was all they could bring up the day before these men were thrown out of work.
There are all kinds of things that could be done in that area. Why do members opposite not carry out their promise to decentralize industry? They came in with the baby budget with its silly suggestion that if some places would call themselves distressed areas, and if the government were to agree that they were, and then if some company would come along and say it would build a plant there it would get double depreciation allowance for one year. They think that is going to result in the decentralization of industry.


John Cameron Pallett: Tell us about the Gordon report.


John Whitney Pickersgill: The Gordon report gave hon. gentlemen opposite one of the few good ideas they have ever had, the idea of a capital grants commission. If that capital grants commission had been established and put to work in the Atlantic provinces there would be jobs in Cape Breton now waiting to be done.


John Cameron Pallett: There would be nobody left there at all.


Donald MacInnis: Would the hon. member permit a question?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Not at this moment. Everybody knows that the province of Nova Scotia has not proceeded nearly as fast as was hoped with the construction of the trans-Canada highway across Cape Breton.


Eldon Mattison Woolliams: What has this to do with coal?


John Whitney Pickersgill: If the hon. member would only listen he would find out. That project is being held up because the government of Nova Scotia has not enough money to pay its 50 per cent. But if the suggestion put forward by members on this side every time the trans-Canada highway has been discussed in this house had been accepted, namely that in the Atlantic provinces 90 per cent of the cost should be borne by the federal government, that road would be well under way and there would be some work there.


Hugh Macarthur Horner: On a point of order-


John Whitney Pickersgill: Surely we are not going to have any more of this closure by phony points of order.


Hugh Macarthur Horner: It is not phony at all. The hon. member has been talking about the trans-Canada highway. I understand we are talking about coal. The hon. member has not mentioned in all this time the ten mines and the 10,000 people who were put out
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys of work in the time of his regime in my constituency and I suggest he get back to the coal mining problem if he wants to talk on this subject.


Gordon Campbell Chown: I have heard the point of order but I think the hon. gentleman, under considerable difficulty, has been relating his oration reasonably well to the item under consideration.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I will relate it very directly. We have the Assoicate Minister of National Defence asking for suggestions as to what is to be done for these displaced miners, yet when one makes suggestions phony points of order are raised. The relationship is this-


Hugh Macarthur Horner: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order-


Gordon Campbell Chown: There is no point of order. Is the hon. member rising on a question of privilege?


Hugh Macarthur Horner: Yes. I rise on a question of privilege. The hon. member has suggested that his remarks with regard to the trans-Canada highway were not out of order. What I am suggesting to him is that I have a number of coal miners-


Gordon Campbell Chown: Order. I have heard the hon. member's question of privilege. I think it is unfair to the member who has the floor in that he has been interrupted on numerous occasions on points I have ruled on or points I could not have ruled on because they were neither points of order nor questions of privilege. I want the hon. gentleman to remain in his seat please because there is very little time left for the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate and I think he should be allowed to complete his speech.


John Whitney Pickersgill: In his opening speech on the coal board this afternoon the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys told us frankly and straightforwardly-and I think it is the first time a spokesman for the government has ever done this-that the coal industry was going down hill, and it was going to continue to go down hill, and that there was going to be less and less employment in the coal industry. He indicated that the problem was to try to slow down this decline, with which we agree, of course, and also to try to find jobs for the people who were going to lose their jobs as miners. Surely nothing could be more important; surely nothing could be more relevant to this item, and surely no hon. member should try to prevent from speaking any member who is trying to suggest some solution of that problem. This I find hard to understand.
I say that if that highway were being built now there would be work. I say that if some of these suggestions Mr. Justice Rand made
5750	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and and Technical Surveys had been implemented at once they would have provided work. This government cannot make up their minds to do anything about those problems. They cannot decide even to do something that would do them great credit if they would only do it.
I say, sir, that while we should seek in every possible way, by the diversion of government purchases, by assistance in any kind of useful works to provide a stopgap, I do not think any of us, having in mind the history of Nova Scotia, and having in mind the position of Cape Breton island, can placidly contemplate the steady decay of that old industrial complex there. Surely we have enough energy and enough public initiative, if there is not enough private initiative for it, to get some secondary industry established there and provide some real incentives to do it.


Donald MacInnis: You never did.


John Whitney Pickersgill: The hon. gentleman says that we never did. We made a proposal in 1957, and if it had been carried out in the form in which it was made it would have provided for the consumption of a very considerable quantity of coal which is now being consumed in the dominion, because our proposal was that those thermal plants should be owned by the federal government and not by the provincial governments or power companies, and the federal government could have afforded for a number of years to bear the carrying charges to operate them if necessary at a loss in order to give a stimulus to the region. But what happened? For reasons which I have never been able to understand, the premiers of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick first accepted that proposal enthusiastically and then changed their minds and said they did not want it that way. They wanted those plants to be provincially owned. What happened in New Brunswick? The thermal plant does not use coal at all. The Minister of Forestry, who was then the premier of that province, notwithstanding this great coal problem, allowed them to use oil instead. This is what this government has contributed to the solution of this problem in that particular respect. It is true the Trenton plant has been completed but nothing more has been done.
The hon. gentleman asked for suggestions. I have another suggestion. I suggest that for a period of years the federal government should agree to provide electricity at no cost for a number of secondary industries in Cape Breton.


Donald MacInnis: Walter Gordon would not go for it.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I am suggesting-


Gordon Campbell Chown: Order. I regret to inform the hon. member that his

time has expired. He will have another opportunity at another time.


Eldon Mattison Woolliams: Mr. Chairman, I have been very interested in the remarks of the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate, and particularly in the remarks of the aspiring leader of the C.C.F.-New party group or whatever they wish to call themselves, because I could take both of them down into the constituency of Bow River and show them a graveyard in which they erected the stones in reference to the coal mining industry. If they had listened on July 25, 1955 to the then leader of the Conservative party, Mr. Drew, the coal mines of western Canada might not be in the mess they are in today.
I should like to have had the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate campaigning in the Bow River constituency in 1957. The Liberal party had an outstanding candidate, a man of integrity, from Acme, Alberta, campaigning in that riding and he was not able to collect together enough people in the coal mining areas to fill a clothes closet because they were entirely deserted by the former administration. The reason he was unable to get together a small group was that the former government did nothing for the coal mining industry in western Canada. As early as-


John Whitney Pickersgill: What have you done about it?


Eldon Mattison Woolliams: The hon. member did not leave me much time, but if he will just bear with me I will tell him. I hope he will attend the House of Commons tomorrow because he will then see that we were able to get a market for 500,000 tons of coal-this is my answer to the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate-in Japan, a great new market, to give men and women in the province of Alberta jobs which they did not have when this government took office.
Resolutions adopted in committee of supply this day reported and concurred in.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

John Whitney Pickersgill: I wonder whether the house leader could confirm the business for tomorrow and Saturday and give us any indication he is able to for next week.


Mr. Churchill:: The indication of the business for next week will be given, I hope, tomorrow night. For tomorrow we will carry on with the estimates of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys, followed by secretary of state, followed by fisheries. If these three are concluded, then the Department of Public Works.
At 10.30 p.m. the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to special order.



ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
The following answers, deposited with the Clerk of the house, are printed in the official report of debates pursuant to standing order 39:

Mr. Martin (Essex East): 1.	Has a new lighthouse-keeper been appointed at Jeanette's creek in Essex county?
2.	Was the new appointment made on the recommendation of a person or persons residing in Essex county?
3.	If not, what are the names and addresses of persons recommending the new appointee?
Answer by: Hon. Leon Balcer (Minister of Transport):
1.	Yes.
2.	No.
3.	Mr. H. W. Danforth, M.P., Blenheim,
Ont.
Questions


SUPERINTENDENT, CARILLON-GRENVILLE CANAL   APPLICANTS FOR POSITION
Mr. Latour: 1.	What are the names of all candidates who have applied in the competition held on May 3 and completed on May 15, for the position of superintendent of the Carillon-Grenville canal in the constituency of Argenteuil-Deux Montagnes, and to which position an appointment was made on May 17?
2.	Did all the candidates appear personally before the board to be put through an oral or written examination?
3.	Was the fact that one of the candidates was a veteran of the 1939-45 war, whose regimental number was 179-226, taken into account?
Answer by: Hon. Noel Dorion (Secretary of State):
(Translation):
1.	The only two competing candidates have qualified in the following order:
Mr. Leopold Crevier.
Mr. Marcel Decary.
2.	No.
3.	No. This is a competition for promotion and the overseas service priority only applies in the case of entrance examinations for the civil service.
5752	HOUSE OF
Supply-Items Passed
(Text):
[The following items were passed in committee of supply]:


DEPARTMENT OF MINES AND TECHNICAL SURVEYS
[Stage Direction]
A-Department-
Administration services-
Departmental administration-
202.	Administration, operation and maintenance, $1,087,947.
203.	Acquisition of common-use field survey and other equipment, $247,300.
204.	Explosives Act administration, $111,648.
205.	Mineral resources division, $385,471.
206.	Assessment for membership in the PanAmerican institute of geography and history, $9,150.
Surveys and mapping branch-
207.	Branch administration including a grant of $1,000 to the Canadian institute of surveying and photogrammetry, $171,588.
208.	Geodetic survey of Canada, $935,434.
209.	International boundary commission including authority to make recoverable advances in amounts not exceeding in the aggregate the amount of the share of the United States government of the cost of binding annual reports and maintaining boundary range lights, $88,799.
Topographical surveys-
210.	Administration, operation and maintenance, $2,209,626.
211.	Construction or acquisition of equipment, $92,000.
Canadian hydrographic service-
212.	Administration, operation and maintenance including Canada's fee for membership in the international hydrographic bureau, $5,370,081.
213.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $7,633,030.
214.	Legal surveys and aeronautical charts, $844,905.
215.	Provincial and territorial boundary surveys including authority to make recoverable advances in amounts not exceeding in the aggregate the amounts of the shares of the provincial governments of the costs of the surveys, $19,785.
[Stage Direction]
Map compilation and reproduction-
216.	Administration, operation and maintenance $1,642,306.
217.	Construction or acquisition of equipment, $39,900.
Geological survey of Canada-
218.	Administration, operation and maintenance including Canada's share of the cost of the geological liaison office, British Commonwealth scientific conference, London, England, and $75,000 for grants in aid of geological research in Canadian universities, $4,937,624.
219.	Construction or acquisition of equipment, $366,210.
Mines branch-
220.	Administration, operation and maintenance, $4,480,543.
221.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, and equipment, $327,552.
Geographical branch-
222.	Administration, operation and maintenance including the expenses of the Canadian board on geographical names (formerly under surveys and mapping branch administration) and a grant of $500 to the Canadian association of geographers, $500,626.
Dominion observatories-
Dominion observatory, Ottawa and field stations-
223.	Administration, operation and maintenance including the expenses of the national committee for Canada of the international astronomical union, Canada's fee for membership in the international astronomical union and a grant of $3,500 to the royal astronomical society of Canada, $1,568,575.
224.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $493,050.
Dominion astrophysical observatory, Victoria, B.C.-
225.	Administration, operation and maintenance, $206,013.
226.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $160,600.
General-
227.	Purchases of air photography and the expenses of the interdepartmental committee on air surveys, $1,300,000.
228.	Polar continental shelf project, $1,553,595.
[Stage Direction]
<: [DOT][DOT]s*


[Stage Direction]
QUEEN*S PRINTER AND CONTROLLER OF STATIONERY OTTAWA, 1961
90205-6-293£
[Stage Direction]
Thursday, May 11, 1961

[Stage Direction]
Twelfth report of standing committee on standing orders-Miss Aitken,