1961-02-17

EXTERNAL AFFAIRS


Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to inform the house that the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, Right Hon. Harold Macmillan, has accepted my invitation to visit Ottawa after his forthcoming meeting with President Kennedy in Washington. Mr. Macmillan will be accompanied by Lady Dorothy. He expects to arrive in Ottawa on the evening of Friday, April 7, and to leave late in the evening of April 8.


Hon. Paul Martin (Essex East):: Mr. Speaker, I am sure that the announcement made by the Prime Minister of the intended visit of the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom to our country will be warmly received. The Prime Minister of the United Kingdom will, of course, be very welcome in Canada.


Mr. Hazen Argue (Assiniboia):: This is a welcome announcement by the Prime Minister. All Canadians will be pleased to once again have the opportunity of welcoming the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom to our country. I express the hope that arrangements may be made for Prime Minister Macmillan to address both houses of parliament while he is visiting Canada. I think the nation would welcome this if it is possible to make the arrangements.



ESTATE TAX


Hon. Donald M. Fleming (Minister of Finance):: Mr. Speaker, hon. members will no doubt be interested to know that a convention has been concluded between Canada and the United States for the avoidance of double taxation and the prevention of fiscal evasion with respect to taxes on estates. Arrangements have been made to have the convention signed in Washington today by the Canadian ambassador and the United States secretary of state.
This convention is additional to the existing convention between Canada and the
United States signed June 8, 1944, which continues to apply to the estates of persons who died before January 1, 1959. The new convention applies to the estates of persons dying on or after that date, which is the date on which the Canadian Estate Tax Act superseded the dominion succession duty act. The convention follows the general pattern of the 1944 convention between Canada and the United States and the conventions between Canada and the United Kingdom, France, Ireland and South Africa.
The taxes included in the scope of the new convention are the Canadian estate tax, the United States estate tax and any other taxes of a substantially similar character subsequently imposed by the federal governments of either country.
The main purpose of the convention is to avoid double taxation which might otherwise result, particularly when the estate of a person dying domiciled in one country includes assets situated in the other country. This purpose is accomplished chiefly by a reciprocal system of tax credits whereby the country of domicile gives credit for the tax imposed by the country where the assets are situated, that is to say the country of situs. In order to make this system work smoothly specific rules of situs for assets of various classes are provided. These rules are almost identical with those in the Estate Tax Act.
Another method of avoiding double taxation is by providing that when one country is taxing solely on the basis of situs it will take into account only property situated in its territory and will restrict its tax by limiting its rates or by allowing an exemption, or both. Accordingly Canada has bound for the term of the convention the present flat rate tax of 15 per cent imposed by the Estate Tax Act on property situated in Canada of any foreign domiciled decedent. The convention also stipulates that Canada will not tax such property if its value is less than $15,000. This contrasts with the provision in the Estate Tax Act whereby such property will not be taxed if its value is less than $5,000. The United States in taxing Canadian domiciliaries is similarly required to restrict its tax base to property situated in the United States and not to tax if this property is valued at less than $15,000. However, the United States, which uses a schedule of graduated rates, is not obliged to restrict its rates; instead it is

Sale of Wheat
required to allow a deductible exemption of $2,000 in all cases where the property is valued at more than $15,000.
By the terms of the convention Canada will make two other changes of substance affecting the normal operation of the Estate Tax Act. The first is that Canada, in giving a credit for United States taxes on property situated therein, will give a credit for the United States federal tax before this tax is itself reduced by credits allowed in respect of taxes levied by the state governments. The United States will similarly give a credit for the Canadian federal estate tax before this tax is reduced by abatements in respect of provincial succession duties. This provision has much the same result as allowing a credit for the provincial or state taxes of the other country. The new provision will make Canadian practice reciprocal with long-standing United States practice and will benefit estates of certain Canadian domiciliaries by increasing the amount of credits given.
The second of these changes is that where Canada allows a deduction for a bequest to a charitable organization in Canada, as it now does under the Estate Tax Act, it will also allow a deduction for a bequest to any charitable organization in the United States that would have qualified according to the Canadian definition of a charitable organization, if it had been in Canada. An example would be a university, Mr. Speaker. The provision affecting this amendment is reciprocal and again will bring Canadian practice into conformity with long-standing United States practice. It will also be beneficial to the estates of Canadian domiciliaries where such a bequest exists.
The convention will come into force when it receives legislative approval and is ratified by the governments of the two countries. When the convention comes into force it will be retroactive to January 1, 1959, so as to provide continuity with the existing convention. Consequently benefits resulting from its terms will apply to the estates of persons dying on or after that date. A bill to implement the convention will be introduced in the house in due course.



ANNOUNCEMENT OF PURCHASE BY CZECHOSLOVAKIA

Hon. Alvin Hamilton (Minister of Agriculture):: I am pleased to announce that the Canadian wheat board has concluded an agreement with KOOSPOL, the Czechoslovakian purchasing agency for foodstuffs, for the purchase of approximately 200,000 metric tons of Canadian wheat or approximately

7.3 million bushels of No. 2 and No. 3 wheat, with a small amount of Durum. The wheat is to be shipped from St. Lawrence ports following the opening of navigation. The wheat will be purchased on a credit basis and, by agreement between the governments of Czechoslovakia and Canada, export credits insurance has been provided in order to facilitate this sale. The terms of payment are 10 per cent cash at date of shipment; 30 per cent payable one year from date of shipment; 30 per cent payable two years from date of shipment; 30 per cent payable three years from date of shipment. The Canadian grain trade, acting as agents of the Canadian wheat board, will negotiate individual contracts with the official purchasing agency of the Czechoslovakian government.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, the house will welcome this announcement, as it did the announcement the other day of the proposed sale of wheat to China. The minister has given us some details as to the method of payment, but it may be that he will expand on this on some other occasion or perhaps on orders of the day. In any event, this welcome news will assist the farmer who needs assistance at this time in Canada.


Hazen Robert Argue: The Minister of Agriculture seems to be developing the habit in connection with his announcements of extra Canadian wheat sales, to make them when they involve countries that might not, under present conditions, be expected to buy their supplies from the United States. These sales are welcome. I may say that over the years I have had some part to play myself-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Hazen Robert Argue: Hon. members can laugh if they like-in assisting in the conclusion of sales to such countries.


An hon. Member:: How many bushels?


Hazen Robert Argue: The record is quite clear and I could spell it out if hon. members would give me the opportunity, Mr. Speaker.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I am not sure what was the cause of the reaction, but perhaps hon. members will allow the member for Assiniboia to finish his comments.


Hazen Robert Argue: I was about to go on to say that I hope any future announcements the government makes will demonstrate that the government is being just as successful in holding or increasing our sales to our normal or regular markets.
The fact that this wheat will be shipped through the St. Lawrence ports is welcome

news indeed because producers in Manitoba, eastern Saskatchewan and central Saskatchewan in recent months have found difficulty in marketing their grain because of a lack of markets which took wheat through eastern Canada. This, Mr. Speaker, could be of some help in allowing the Canadian wheat board to raise the quotas in Manitoba and the parts of Saskatchewan to which I have referred.



RESEARCH


[Stage Direction]
Mr. John Pallet! (Peel) moved:
That the special committee on research appointed Thursday, February 16, 1961 be composed of Messrs. Aiken, Batten, Best, Bissonnette, Bourget, Bruns-den, Dumas, Drysdale, Forgie, Godin, Grafftey, MacLellan, Mcllraith, Murphy, Nielsen, Payne, Pitman, Slogan, Smith (Winnipeg North), and Stewart.
Motion agreed to.


Hon. E. D. Fulton (Minister of Justice) moved: for leave to introduce Bill No. C-70, to provide for the furnishing of financial and other statistics relating to the affairs of corporations and labour unions carrying on activities within Canada.


Some hon. Members:: Explain.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Mr. Speaker, this is legislation which was forecast in the speech from the throne to compel the disclosure of certain important essentials as to the details of their operations by corporations and trade unions carrying on activities in Canada, which are controlled from outside Canada.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



UNITED NATIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Paul Joseph James Martin: I should like to address to the Prime Minister a question arising out of part of the statement he made yesterday in this house when he outlined Canada's position regarding the situation in the Congo. I should like to ask the Prime Minister if his attention has been directed to reported complaints on the part of certain neutral African nations, members of a conciliation commission designed to deal with the situation in the Congo, who have alleged that part of the statement made by the Prime 90205-6-136
Inquiries of the Ministry Minister yesterday was a breach of confidence and that, instead of helping to alleviate the situation in the Congo, it has aggravated it.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Kootenay West (Mr. Herridge) has given me notice of his intention to ask this question.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I think the Prime Minister will agree that I had given him notice also.


John George Diefenbaker: Later. Apparently what the hon. gentleman has in mind is an article in this morning's Globe and Mail. I would point out the fact that over this article, which refers to the circumstances outlined by the hon. gentleman, this paragraph appears:
The following report of Ottawa disclosures of information on Congo conciliation commission was received simultaneously last night with a report from Henry Tanner in Leopoldville which revealed that the commission's recommendations had also been disclosed in the Congo. A short time later the above story by Lindsay Parrott with extensive quotes from the commission report was filed by the New York Times.
This is the report to which the hon. gentleman refers and which indicates the degree to which the gist of the conciliation committee's report had been made public in New York and elsewhere before reference to it was made in this house. The general idea embodied in the report had indeed been in circulation for some time. Those ideas coincide generally with the views of the Canadian government, and in fact what I was discussing was ideas under consideration by the Canadian authorities which in any case had already become part of the public domain. The very fact that the article in question has over it this reference to the degree to which the contents of the report had already been made public is an answer to the allegations of the correspondence in question. In my statement I gave an outline.
All I can say is that there was nothing revealed in any way that was of a confidential character. Indeed, the information had been revealed in the press or by reports before any reference was made in this house.


Mr. H. W. Herridge (Kootenay West):: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the Prime Minister. The reports in the United States press were straight news reports and did not refer to a leak or anything of that sort?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I do not think the Prime Minister can be held accountable for what is published in the United States press.


Hazen Robert Argue: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Could the Prime Minister say whether the government
2148	HOUSE OF
Inquiries of the Ministry has received any communications from any nations involved protesting this alleged leak by the Prime Minister?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, the only alleged leak was a reference by a correspondent, and there has been nothing from any of the nations in question protesting in any way.



NATIONAL DEFENCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. J. Robichaud (Gloucester):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Minister of National Defence. Could the minister inform the house whether a final decision has been reached as to the settlement of claims for damages caused last summer in the Tracadie range area by an R.C.A.F. plane from the Chatham air base; and if so, can payment be expected at an early date?


Hon. D. S. Harkness (Minister of National Defence):: Yes, Mr. Speaker, one claim has already been settled and payment made. With respect to the other claimants, authority has been given to negotiate settlement of all claims except three, where ownership of the property damaged has not yet been established. It is expected that a legal officer of the department will visit the area within the next week or ten days to make payment to the various individuals concerned.



EUROPEAN TRADING GROUPS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. W. M. Benidickson (Kenora-Rainy River):: Mr. Speaker, I would like to address a question to the Minister of Finance, who has indicated that representatives of the government have been keeping in close touch with the conference of the outer seven trading units in Europe.
I wonder whether the Minister of Finance heard the direct report on the C.B.C. news this morning from London, which in part was a direct voice recording of a statement by the president of the board of trade of the United Kingdom upon his return from that conference. Mr. Maudling said the group of Seven had certainly agreed that further approaches to the common market group of Six would be made, but he indicated that in addition to that, for the advantage of trade liberalization, new approaches to the United States were equally necessary.
Could the minister explain why no reference was made in the remarks of the
[Mr. Argue.)

president of the board of trade to approaches to Canada in the hope of reducing tariffs, and does the minister think this was perhaps in some manner due to the rebuffs which the United Kingdom received in Montreal two years ago?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member has asked a question in a way which puts it outside the responsibility of the Minister of Finance. There may be appropriate questions to be asked as a result of the conference, but the way the hon. member has expressed it he endeavours to make the Minister of Finance accountable in an administrative way for a statement made by the president of the board of trade of the United Kingdom.


William Moore Benidickson: My question was whether or not the observers representing the Canadian government have reported to the minister any explanation of why the president of the board of trade, after the conference of the Seven, indicated that approaches would be made to the United States; but there was an omission when mentioning approaches to the United States to the same toward Canada.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, I heard the broadcast this morning. It purported to be a broadcast of some excerpts from a statement made by the president of the board of trade on his return to London. It did not purport to be the full statement at all. I do not know what were the contents of the full statement made by the president of the board of trade.
He drew attention to the fact that the United Kingdom and other members of the outer seven would be interested in exchanging mutual tariff concessions with the United States. I think this is the position of practically all countries now negotiating at Geneva under the auspices of GATT, Canada included. There was no omission of reference to Canada that has the significance the hon. member seeks to attach to it. When the hon. member talks about rebuffs he is putting his own colourful and inaccurate interpretation on something he has been agitating about for a considerable length of time but which has never justified the statements he has made in reference thereto.


Hon. J. W. Pickersgill (Bonavisla-Twillin-gaie):: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Can the Minister of Finance say whether there have been any recent approaches by the president of the board of trade or any other member of the British government to the Canadian government with a view to liberalizing trade between the United Kingdom and Canada?


Donald Methuen Fleming: There are exchanges proceeding in reference to the present negotiations at GATT. The negotiations which have proceeded at Geneva up to this time have concerned proposals to rebind existing tariff concessions. The timetable contemplates that commencing March 1 negotiations will be undertaken with respect to proposed new exchanges, and of course there have been communications passing between the government of Canada and the government of the United Kingdom in reference to this subject in so far as it relates to trade between the two countries.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Could I ask the Minister of Finance, Mr. Speaker, whether the Canadian government has made any proposals to the United Kingdom government?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, we have expressed views with regard to proposals to the United Kingdom and they have expressed certain views to us. This is the ordinary form of exchange between the two governments.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I think the minister misunderstood my question, Mr. Speaker. My question was specifically with relation to the further liberalization of trade between the two countries.


Donald Methuen Fleming: We have made certain proposals to Her Majesty's government in the United Kingdom and Her Majesty's government in the United Kingdom has made certain proposals to the Canadian government.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hazen Robert Argue: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Prime Minister. Has the Prime Minister received a letter from Frank Hall advising him that negotiations are being cut off with the railways partly, at any rate, because of reports that the government is considering some form of arbitration procedure? In view of the desirability of continuing negotiations, could the Prime Minister inform the house whether or not the government is considering a form of arbitration in this dispute?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I have not as yet received any letter from Mr. Hall. After I have received it, I shall then be in a position to reply to whatever allegations or statements may be made therein.
90205-6-136J
Inquiries of the Ministry


Hazen Robert Argue: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the direct question I asked a couple of weeks ago when the Prime Minister did not answer. Is the government in fact giving consideration to arbitration proceedings?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I think the hon. member is asking the government to declare a fairly considerable amount of policy in answer to a question from him, and that is not in accordance with the practice.


Hon. Lionel Chevrier (Laurier):: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. In view of the fact that the Prime Minister, I believe, has already tabled the letter which he wrote to Mr. Hall and others, I wonder if he would not do the same thing in connection with Mr. Hall's letter when he receives it?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, when the letter is received consideration will be given to the request of the hon. gentleman.



DEFENCE PRODUCTION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Hubert Badanai (Fort William):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Prime Minister arising out of a statement made in the house on Wednesday by the Prime Minister in connection with the award of a contract for 20 Bobcats to the Canadian Car Company. Will the Prime Minister indicate if he will meet a delegation from the city councils and other bodies of the two cities at a time suitable to him during his visit to the lakehead tomorrow?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I think the hon. member is asking a hypothetical question. He has not indicated that there has been any request for such a meeting.


Hubert Badanai: Mr. Speaker, may I direct another question to the Prime Minister. In view of the fact that the hon. gentleman is going to be in the lakehead tomorrow, will he accept an invitation to meet a delegation from the cities of Port Arthur and Fort William?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member is repeating a question which I have already indicated is purely hypothetical, in the sense that there is no suggestion that there has been any request for the Prime Minister to meet these gentlemen.



INQUIRY AS TO SALE OF AIR CARGO PLANES TO U.S.

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the

Inquiries of the Ministry Prime Minister and ask him if he has seen the article written by George Bain, appearing in this morning's Globe and Mail, to the effect that the sale of the Canadair CL-44 to the United States as a military cargo carrier has been hanging by only the thinnest of threads? Mr. Bain goes on to say that the only way to effect this sale is through direct intervention by the Prime Minister with the President of the United States when their meeting takes place. I wonder if the Prime Minister has any comment to make?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, the answer to both questions is no.



ARTS, LETTERS AND SCIENCES REPRESENTATIONS RESPECTING UNIVERSITY BURSARY PLAN

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Erhart Regier (Burnaby-Coquiilam):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Prime Minister if he has recently had representations made to him by the Canadian federation of university students in regard to a proposed bursary plan. If so, has he any announcement to make in this regard?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, there were representations made to the government some two or three days ago by three representatives of the university federation. These representations naturally will receive the fullest consideration.



AGRICULTURE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Walter Pitman (Peterborough):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture based on a recent newspaper report which quotes the hon. gentleman as saying that we:
-have breeding programs tor just about everything except trees and human beings and I see no reason why trees should be exempt any longer-
Would the minister assure the house that the minister does not plan to encourage any further exemptions?



UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Labour based on a report today from the dominion bureau of statistics that 754,000


individuals claimed unemployment insurance as of December 30 last. Will the minister tell the house whether the government proposes to replenish the unemployment insurance fund out of consolidated revenue and if not what method the government is going to employ to replenish the fund so that further claimants will be guaranteed their contractual rights under the Unemployment Insurance Act?


Hon. Michael Siarr (Minister of Labour):: Mr. Speaker, this government has always shouldered its responsibilities with a marked degree of responsibility. If the government arrives at any policy in respect of the matters raised by the hon. member, it will make that decision known here in the house.



CAPE BRETON


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Frank Howard (Skeena):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to ask the Prime Minister whether he is in a position today to answer two questions put to him on February 15, one by the hon. member for Gloucester dealing with a meeting between representatives of government, management and labour with respect to the coal industry in Cape Breton and the other by the Leader of the Opposition with respect to the so-called Rand report. The hon. gentleman indicated that he would have to examine the record before he could supply answers to these questions. Is he yet in a position to deal with them?


John George Diefenbaker: I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, but I am not in a position to reply to those questions today. I do not have the information with me.



TRANSPORT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hazen Robert Argue: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Transport, and I apologize for not sending him notice. My question rises out of a decision by the board of transport commissioners to allow the Cumberland Railway Company to abandon its 4-mile railway service from Springhill to Springhill Junction, Nova Scotia. In view of the serious tragedies that have befallen this town would the government consider making this railway a part of the Canadian National Railways system so that the service necessary to the industrial survival and growth of Springhill may be maintained?

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration


Hon. Leon Balcer (Minister of Transport):: Mr. Speaker, I have already received a request to that effect from Premier Stanfield of Nova Scotia. The matter has been under consideration for some time. I have passed along this request to the management of the Canadian National Railways, and no final decision has been arrived at yet.


Hazen Robert Argue: I thank the minister for his reply. I have a supplementary question. Can I take it from the minister's reply that the government itself would have no objection to the C.N.R. taking this course? Can the minister say whether the government has a policy with regard to this four miles of railway line?


Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker, this is strictly a decision for the management of the C.N.R. As far as the government is concerned, we always try to do everything for the wellbeing of our fellow Canadians in any part of the country, and we will keep on doing that.


John Whitney Pickersgill: May I ask the Prime Minister a supplementary question. Can he say on what date the government abdicated its responsibility for the acquisition of capital assets by the C.N.R. and transferred it to the company?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member is putting his question in the form of an assertion. I suppose he did not expect it to be answered.



DOMINION-PROVINCIAL CONFERENCE INQUIRY AS TO TABLING OP CORRESPONDENCE WITH PREMIERS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I have another question that I should like to ask the Prime Minister. Is he in a position now to table the replies from the premiers to his letter, which he indicated some time ago he would do?


John George Diefenbaker: I have not yet received the consent of the premiers, but I will table them at the earliest possible date. I know the hon. gentleman wants to see the letters, and I would be very glad to let him see them before they are tabled here in a formal way. I can only table them, of course, with the consent of the premiers. If there is anything in them that the hon. member wants to see or that he has in his mind, having preinformation or otherwise, I will be glad to let him see them.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege affecting every hon. member in this house and the house itself, with respect to the reply which has just been given by the Prime Minister. These letters are in reply to a letter addressed to the premiers by the Prime Minister, with respect to which he did not feel it necessary to get any consent to have it published in this house before, in some instances and indeed as far as I can learn in all instances, it had even been received by the recipients. It was a public letter to which presumably public replies were made, and it does not seem to me appropriate that these replies should be offered to one member of the house and not to the whole house, nor does it appear to me that any consent is required.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I have no hesitation in withdrawing the offer that I made a moment ago in a spirit of amity.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Flynn in the chair.
DEPARTMENT OF CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION Indian affairs branch-
55. Administration, $792,099.


Frank Howard: There was only a moment or two available last evening to make a few brief comments on this matter following the opening statement of the minister. I wonder whether I might be allowed the opportunity to make one or two statements at this stage and pose some questions which might subsequently be answered by the minister, because-


The Chairman:: Order. Will hon. members please lower their voices so that we may hear the hon. member for Skeena?


Frank Howard: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As I say, I would like to pose one or two questions early in the debate, for they may entail some compiling of statistical information, if only in a general way.
The minister made reference to the alterations which were made a few years ago in the welfare structure, and to the substitution of payment by voucher by payment in cash. The announcement was made in the house on March 5, 1959 with respect to the new standards of welfare. This information is contained in Hansard of that day. Five separate classes or groupings were established within which a person might fall in order to obtain certain levels of welfare payments. The standard rate was established on the basis of a single adult at $22; then there were scales classified alphabetically as A, B, C, D, giving

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration increasing amounts, depending on circumstances and conditions in the particular area in which the welfare payments were being made.
It would be interesting, if this information is obtainable, to get an indication of the number of people who have been on welfare assistance, or who fall within the five separate scales of payment; that is, how many were on standard rates, how many on class A, how many on class B, how many on class C and how many on class D. Perhaps an analysis of that information will indicate that the standard rates are generally applicable throughout the country and that there are very few native Indian people who were able to qualify for the increased payments.
I understand there has been a tremendous increase in welfare payments to Indians. Of course this is a reflection of economic conditions in the nation as well as of other factors, and we all know that one can very easily come to accept welfare payments as a means of subsistence on a long term basis. I think it would be most unfortunate if native Indian people and others should come to feel that their whole livelihood was gleaned from welfare payments by the department. This would tend to sap any initiative that the individual might have and, incidentally, this applies not only to Indians but to non-Indians as well if we can dip our fingers into the public treasury and live on welfare or relief. There are some people in this society who are quite happy and content to live that sort of lethargic life. I think it would be most unfortunate if, because of economic conditions and other factors, our native Indian people should come to believe that their subsistence and income were dependent solely on welfare plus the foodstuffs they may collect on or near their reserve.
As an indication of the effect of the decline in the economy, coupled with the increased welfare payments and the transition or the change-over from a voucher system to a cash system, I hold in my hand one example which shows what can develop as a result. I have copies of a series of letters exchanged between an organization or company known as Robertson's Market in Sarnia and the minister, and between Mr. Robertson and Mr. Patterson, the superintendent of the Sarnia agency, and a Mr. LeRoy in Sarnia also, all dealing with accumulated bills of Indian people and some non-Indians. I understand that bills have accrued in Mr. Robertson's market to the extent of some $5,300. This correspondence has been exchanged over the period of a year or a little more. Mr. Robertson's attempt, of course, is to get either from the Indian affairs branch or from band moneys direct payment to him fur these overdue accounts.

That, of course, is not the point I want to deal with, because I think his approach to the department in this regard is quite correct; but it does reflect an unfortunate set of circumstances, one in which the Indian people themselves find it necessary to charge up groceries and perhaps other commodities in stores with which they have been dealing. Subsequently, for a variety of reasons, they found themselves unable to pay these accounts. This is not beneficial to the Indians themselves, and it is certainly not helpful to stores like that of Mr. Robertson.
I only raise the point to indicate that I think a more concerted effort should be made to ensure that the native Indian people do not come to rely on welfare payments as their sole means of sustenance, and so that a man like Mr. Robertson will not in the future find himself in the position of having a great amount of credit on his books over a period of time, to such an extent that the continued operation of his business is impaired.
The minister mentioned last night that there is a vote of $100,000 under the Department of Finance, I believe, for housing loans to Indian people as a sort of pilot project, and she indicated that in subsequent years this amount of money, depending on the experience, could very well be increased. I think it would be interesting if the minister could give the committee an understanding of the terms under which these loans will be made. I have in mind the interest rate that will apply, the term of the loan, whether there are any restrictions on the amounts of such loans, and all other statistical information relating to the lending of money and the repayment thereof. Perhaps the minister could make this information available later.
I have in my hand a document published by the Progressive Conservative association of Canada, I believe. It is called "The Record Speaks", and I should like to take the opportunity to make one or two references to it so far as Indian affairs are concerned. On page 11, in dealing with Indian affairs, two statements are made which are not in fact correct. When I say they are not in fact correct that is a polite way to put it, because I will show later that they border on deliberate distortions of fact; or it could well be that Mr. Grosart, who I gather prepared this pamphlet, is really out of touch with the department and the government and is not sure just what is happening. The first sentence under Indian affairs reads as follows:
For the first time, the right to vote has been granted to all Canadian Indians.
We know this is not so. We know that all Canadian Indians had the right to vote some years ago; that by legislation enacted by

parliament many years ago it was taken away from them and that subsequently-


Paul Joseph James Martin: A characteristic distortion.


Frank Howard: Let me tell my hon. friend that it was a Liberal government that took away the right of Indians to vote in the first place.


Paul Joseph James Martin: It was the Liberals who gave it to them.


Frank Howard: Was it? I do not want to get into a crossfire with the hon. member for Essex East about Indian affairs because I have very little respect for the Liberal party's approach to this matter. It is a pretty dark and black record.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I would not want to raise the matter.


Frank Howard: My friend would not want to raise the matter because what I say applies to the party to which he belongs. Here is another distortion of fact in this document:
For the first time, a joint Senate-House of Commons committee on Indian affairs was appointed in May, 1959.
This is just not true; it was not the first time. In fact, on May 13, 1946 parliament passed a motion in substantially the same terms as the one passed recently setting up a joint Senate and House of Commons committee. The hon. member for Brant-Haldi-mand, the parliamentary secretary to the minister, was a member of that committee in 1946 and, if I am not mistaken, the present Minister of National Defence was also a member. In any event these two members of the house were members of the committee established in 1946; but our friend Mr. Grosart says that this did not happen. I do not want to go too far into this matter; I simply wanted to refer to it as a basis for something else.
I remember that a few years ago an Indian gentleman near Brantford accused the hon. lady of speaking with a forked tongue, and I say, of course, that that was incorrect. That was not in fact true, but I am inclined to think that "The Record Speaks" is a record that speaks with a forked tongue so far as these two matters are concerned.
This raises a question in my mind. For many years we have not been too faithful and trustworthy in our dealings with the Indian people. We have destroyed a great deal of the confidence they had in government and in non-Indians. I am sure there is a conscious effort now on the part of the government and every member of the house to bring back that mutual trust, respect and admiration, but the more incorrect distortions of facts such as are contained in "The Record
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration Speaks" are made, the more statements are made that are not in fact true, the more we are doing to destroy the attempt we are making to establish mutual trust and confidence. I am quite sure that if a native Indian were to look at this document and see these statements, which he knows are not true, he would say, "How can I trust this government on other matters in which there has to be trust"?
This is something that is going to become even more important because the fact that parliament has taken the commendable action of giving Indians the right to vote will mean that members of parliament and of political parties, if only for political reasons, will take a greater interest in these people simply because they are a group of voters, and will try to understand more fully the attitudes, feelings and problems of the Indian people. This is beneficial to that extent, and I think it will go a long way toward creating that mutual respect and trust which is so necessary in dealing with our native Indian people.
There are other obstacles which have to be overcome. Over quite a number of years a feeling of resentment against the Indian agent or Indian superintendent, as he is properly classified, has developed among the Indians. Many Indian people have looked upon the Indian agent in the past, and some still do, as a person who is there to prevent them obtaining justice with regard to their demands rather than for the purpose of helping them. They look upon many Indian agents as untrustworthy. It would almost seem as if the Indian is continually at war with the Indian agent with regard to many problems.
As I have said, this situation still exists. It is the result of a number of things, the first being our attitude and our actions toward these people in the past. Second, I think it reflects an attitude on the part of the administration which in itself is a reflection of the attitude of society toward our native Indian people. This situation unfortunately still exists although perhaps not to the same degree as a few years ago. There appears to be a bottleneck within the administration with respect to the flow of ideas concerning the problems of the Indians between parliament itself, the people generally, and the native Indian people.
The Minister of Citizenship and Immigration and other cabinet ministers with jurisdiction over Indian affairs will change from time to time, but as long as we have Indian affairs under federal jurisdiction the administration will remain. It is the attitude of the administration which I think must be altered. As I say, I think the situation is perhaps less difficult than it was a few years ago. I may
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Supply-Citizenship and Immigration be incorrect as to my figures, but I understand that there are 20 or 25 people of native Indian descent who are employees of the Indian affairs branch. This is just a rough guess, but that figure is in my mind. In any event, I have come to the conclusion that this mutual respect which is so desirable does not exist throughout the Indian affairs branch. This again is a reflection of the attitude of society toward the native Indian people. It is extremely unfortunate. I feel that this is one of the key things toward which the Indian affairs branch must work, this trustworthiness and mutual respect, and it must be backed up with proof. Perhaps this condition will continue for the next three years when, I understand, a number of changes will take place which may alter the situation immeasurably.
I think the administration of the branch must exude sincerity toward the Indian people. The Indian agents must exhibit this trust and respect. They must not do so merely by words or fine phrases, but must do so consciously and must give evidence of it by acts. There are a number of instances that take place from time to time which tend to destroy this mutual trust that we are all desirous of building up in the Indian affairs branch.
I should like to refer, if I may, to the matter of land in British Columbia. I did not raise this subject at an earlier time because, unfortunately, I did not have in my possession a particular document which I have since received and to which I should like to refer. If I may be permitted to make a slight reference to something that happened earlier, I would say that this house endorsed a bill repealing section 112 of the Indian Act. This was commendable. The thought was that if these Indian bands were to become enfranchised as entities they would move in the direction of becoming either municipalities under provincial structure or something akin to a municipal corporation. This was the end which I believe the minister and others had in mind some years ago when this provision was instituted. In fact there is still a reference in the act to the understanding that the application of such a band for enfranchisement is coupled to whether or not they will be operating as a municipality.
We have such a request from a village in my riding, from the Metlakatla. This request was made six or seven years ago. There was a committee of inquiry established under section 112, and that committee recommended against the request. I understand from the Indian people that their main objection to proceeding with enfranchisement was the question of lands formerly owned by the


provincial government. This was what prevented this band from moving toward closer ties with our non-Indian society in the municipal and sociological field. I have here a copy of order in council No. 1036, approved and ordered on July 29, 1938 at the executive council chambers in Victoria. There is a list of the members of the cabinet who were present at that time, and incidentally they were Liberals. Part of this order in council deals with certain B.C. lands and, under the Indian affairs settlement act, transfers that land to the federal government in trust for the Indians. This is the key point, as I understand it, and is what prevented the Metlakatla band from proceeding toward enfranchisement and becoming something akin to a municipality.
The order in council reads in part as follows:
-subject to the condition that in the event of any Indian tribe or band in British Columbia at some future time becoming extinct-
Of course if they became enfranchised they would become extinct as a band. They are the same people, but they are not a band within the meaning of the act.
-that any lands hereby conveyed for such tribe or band, and not sold or disposed of as heretofore provided, or any unexpended fund being the proceeds of any such sale, shall be conveyed or repaid to the grantor-
What would happen under that provision would be that the Metlakatla band, if it became enfranchised, would lose its lands because they would revert to the province and become provincial lands. It was the refusal of the Social Credit administration under the former minister of lands and forests, Mr. Sommers, to change this order in council that led the Metlakatla band to say, if we become enfranchised we lose everything. What do we do? Do we step out of our village into the "saltchuck", and then where are we? We thought enfranchisement would mean that we would keep the lands. It was primarily because of this order in council that the Metlakatla enfranchisement question was subsequently rejected by the Metlakatla people themselves.
I say this order in council will be a barrier to any Indian band in British Columbia desiring enfranchisement as a band, regardless of the provisions in the Indian Act. Until there is a change made, this barrier will remain. There are other barriers with respect to land which are preventing and will continue to prevent any clear or definite approach toward the desired mutual respect and trustworthiness, the admiration of one group of people for another, as a step toward integration.
There was one other thing which happened in British Columbia which tended to destroy this hope that the Indian people had for trust

in the government. I refer to another village in my constituency, that of Kitwanga. Part of this reserve is traversed by highway No. 16. The provincial government desired to relocate that section of highway No. 16 which passed through the reserve. This was an example of callous disregard for the rights of people if ever one existed. The correspondence in this regard was tabled pursuant to a motion of mine, and I should like to make reference to one or two letters if I may.
This is an example of the slight regard of the minister of highways of British Columbia for the Indian people, for their rights and their property. His action again tends to destroy what we are working toward in the field of mutual respect. This is a copy of a letter from the department of highways of British Columbia to Mr. W. S. Arneil, the Indian commissioner in Vancouver, dated April 2, 1959. I shall not read it, but it advises that the department contemplates widening the road through this particular village. The last paragraph of the letter reads:
One behalf of the department of highways, I am instructed to make formal application for entry to undertake the proposed reconstruction work within the above mentioned Indian reserves.
According to a subsequent letter, and before the formal application could be dealt with, we find that the department of highways moved on to the property, uprooted the timber and destroyed it, along with everything else. There is a letter dated April 17 from Mr. Arneil to the department of highways in which he says:
Work on this section of the highway, we understand, has already proceeded, the slashing work apparently now almost completed. Without specific approval of the band council for entry onto the reserve we anticipate some difficulty in negotiations.
I expect they would anticipate some difficulty in negotiations. I well know that Mr. Gaglardi has not too much respect for the law as long as he has his way. It is unfortunate that this invasion occurred, and it is unfortunate that the Indian affairs branch sat by and did not act quickly to prevent it or to prevent the destruction of the timber, the removal of the gravel and so on. The Indian people look to the Indian Act for some protection. It states that a person shall not trespass on a reserve, and if he does so he is committing an offence. In this instance they found no protection in the Indian Act, and no protection in the Indian affairs branch. They found nothing except a desire to negotiate and consummate the sale or surrender of that land after it had been taken by the department of highways. This is not doing much to assist in mutual understanding and the move toward integration.
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration
I have a copy of a letter that was addressed to the Minister of Justice. In it accusations are made that the Indian agent in that agency attempted to put pressure on the council and certain members of the council, by means of threats of cutting off welfare and the like, in order to influence them not to negotiate in too difficult a way or on too hard a basis with the provincial government of British Columbia, and to make surrender of the land without too much trouble.
This information was communicated to the Minister of Justice on December 14, 1960. As far as I know, no action has been taken by him in that regard. As a consequence the rights of the Indian people in their land at Kitwanga reserve have just been pushed aside. If ever any people in Canada are covered by the bill of rights it is the Indian people, because they are the ones who are mentioned as a separate group of people coming within the jurisdiction of the federal government. Obviously the bill of rights means nothing as far as their land is concerned.
This sort of thing has been going on for many years. Unfortunately, whatever steps we may be taking toward integration, acculturation, understanding and asking them to trust us again in our dealings with them; no matter how many steps we may take in that direction, attitudes like this which have developed over the years in the Indian affairs branch, actions like those of Mr. Gaglardi, the minister of highways in British Columbia in invading that area, and the failure of the department or of the Minister of Justice to take some action to protect the rights of these individuals and their property, will do more to destroy the moves toward mutual trust that we are trying to develop than anything else. We are working at cross purposes unless we can implant in the mind of every member of the cabinet the fact that it is necessary to move in this direction of mutual desire.


Jacques Flynn: Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member, but I must inform him that his time has expired.


Mr. Winch:: First of all, Mr. Chairman, may I express my appreciation to those sitting on the government benches and in the official opposition for being allowed to follow the hon. member for Skeena at this time, owing to my having made a commitment several weeks ago to speak this afternoon at a seminar in Niagara Falls on the subject of my experience at the United Nations and in international affairs. I greatly appreciate that courtesy.
I desire to speak on this administration vote for the Indian affairs branch for one reason only. May I say that I fully appreciate
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Supply-Citizenship and Immigration the fact that there was last session, and there is this session, a special joint committee of the other house and the House of Commons on Indian affairs. What I want to discuss is a matter which I feel is of such great importance that it goes beyond a study of Indian affairs by a joint committee of the other house and the House of Commons.
Through you, Mr. Chairman, I should like to ask whether the minister in charge of Indian affairs in her time in office has had an opportunity to review the sale of Indian lands over a period of, for instance, 40 years. I refer in particular to the province of British Columbia, and ask whether any thought has been given not only to the studies being made by a special joint committee but to a judicial inquiry to decide whether or not the Indians in British Columbia have been robbed-and I deliberately use those words "have been robbed"-on the sale of land. Has any thought been given to a judicial inquiry into the question of whether an agreement made in 1912 is still in effect or has a bearing on the sale of reserve land nominally held by the Indian bands of British Columbia?
May I at this time through you, Mr. Chairman, and the minister also express my thanks to the director of Indian affairs, who in past weeks has been most courteous and helpful to me in trying to obtain copies of official records. It is only through his courtesy and co-operation that I was able to locate a copy of the proceedings of the royal commission on Indian affairs, volume 1, in 1916, which provides the basis upon which I am making my remarks here this morning.
It is my understanding that prior to 1912 Indian reserves were established and lines of demarcation were set, and that those Indian reserves were the property of the Indians of British Columbia. However, a royal commission was established in 1912 on which was a Mr. McKenna, representing the government of Canada. As a result of this royal commission an agreement was reached in 1912 which is now known as the McKenna-Mc-Bride agreement, McKenna being the commissioner representing the government of Canada and McBride the premier of British Columbia.
I was most interested in noting that an order in council was passed on November 27, 1912 and that according to the terms of this order in council, the agreement reached between McKenna and McBride was not to be submitted to the legislature of British Columbia or to the parliament of Canada but was to be decided upon by the government of Canada and the government of British Columbia. I have not yet been able to locate any act of the legislature of British Columbia or any act of the parliament of Canada relative


to changes that were made regarding reserve lands. I say that I have not yet located any acts of parliament, but they may be in existence. I do not know; I have not found them yet. All I have at the present time is this order in council passed in Ottawa on November 27, 1912, by which the government concurred in the McKenna-McBride agreement.
You may ask, Mr. Chairman, why this is disturbing and why I ask whether the minister is considering, has considered or will consider, in addition to the study being made by the joint committee, a judicial inquiry to determine whether or not the Indians of British Columbia have been robbed of their lands because of the McKenna-McBride agreement of 1912.
The McKenna-McBride agreement is quoted in the report of the royal commission on Indian affairs, 1916, volume 1. I will read the agreement in part. I will read all that hon. members require, but this is what it says in part, dealing with reserve lands. The commission had the power to add, if they found it proper, or cut down the reserve lands. This is the agreement on how they could cut down the lands which had previously been granted and accepted as being the property of the Indians of British Columbia;
Memorandum of an agreement arrived at between J. A. J. McKenna, special commissioner appointed by the dominion government to investigate the condition of Indian affairs in British Columbia, and the Honourable Sir Richard McBride, as premier of the province of British Columbia.
Then the agreement continues:
(a) At such places as the commissioners are satisfied-
I stress those words "the commissioners are satisfied":
-that more land is included in any particular reserve as now defined than is reasonably required for the use of the Indians of that tribe or locality, the reserve shall, with the consent of the Indians, as required by the Indian Act, be reduced to such acreage as the commissioners think reasonably sufficient for the purposes of such Indians.
I would like this to be noted; it is in the report:
4.	The lands which the commissioners shall determine are not necessary for the use of the Indians shall be subdivided and sold by the province at public auction.
5.	The net proceeds of all such sales shall be divided equally between the province and the doimnion, and all moneys received by the dominion under this clause shall be held or used by the dominion for the benefit of the Indians of British Columbia.
That is the McKenna-McBride agreement, which was agreed to by order in council in Ottawa and by the lieutenant governor in council in British Columbia. I would like to point out first of all that these lands had been

granted by law as the reserve lands of the native Indians of British Columbia. I know it is a long time back, but I can assure the minister through you, sir, that I have travelled across British Columbia for 27 years and I know the Indian lands, Indian bands and Indian people. Right to this day they feel that over the years they have been robbed on land sales.
One point is this; that in 1912, although they already held reserves by right and by law, a decision by a commission and approved by order in council held that any lands which the commission decided were not required by Indian bands would be sold by auction by the province, the province to retain 50 per cent of the moneys and the federal government to receive 50 per cent and distribute it to the bands. In my studies I have found that in all sales the federal government has, under the order in council, distributed this money to the bands. But I am certain you will understand what is causing this feeling on the part of the Indians that they have been dealt with unfairly. This is because 50 per cent of the money goes to the province after the sale of their own lands, and no distribution is made to the Indians. If these were Indian lands and by agreement they were to be sold by auction, why should only 50 per cent of the proceeds go back to the Indians? These lands were all theirs originally by law, and certain parts were allocated for reserves.
As I say, this was in 1912. One half of this volume 1 outlines the lands declared surplus. Was it all handled that year? The answer is no. I have not had time to study how this matter has developed since 1912, but I wish to show what happened in one instance. There was a report agreed to by order in council in 1912 concerning Indian reserve lands. Order in council No. P.C. 48/2838 was passed in Ottawa on September 26, 1939. I would like to place this order in council on record:
The board had under consideration a memorandum from the honourable the minister of mines and resources reporting:
"That pursuant to the report of the royal commission on Indian affairs for the province of British Columbia, a portion of Capilano Indian reserve No. 5, of the Squamish band, Vancouver agency, province of British Columbia, was cut off the reserve;
That the McKenna-McBride agreement of 1912 provided that reserves or portions of reserves so cut off were to be sold by the province at public auction, and that 'the net proceeds of all such sales shall be divided equally between the province and the dominion, and all moneys received by the dominion under this clause shall be held or used by the dominion for the benefit of the Indians of British Columbia';
That in 1936 the province of British Columbia disposed of a portion of the cut-off area in the Capilano reserve to the First Narrows Bridge Company for a net sum of $6,048 and remitted
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration $3,024, being 50 per cent, to the Receiver General of Canada, which was placed in the capital account of the Squamish band, and That the council of the Squamish band, in a resolution dated April 25, 1938, requested that 50 per cent of the dominion's share be distributed to the members of the band on a per capita basis, as provided by section 92 of the Indian Act.
The undersigned, therefore, recommends that he be authorized to approve a per capita distribution of 50 per cent of the moneys received from the province to the Indians of Squamish band, as provided under section 92 of the Indian Act." The board concur in the above report and recommendation, and submit the same for favourable consideration.
There was the McKenna-McBride agreement in 1912 under which what were previously Indian lands were dealt with. Under the orders of the commission, according to all the plans submitted in this report, lands could be cut off and sold by the province at auction, the province to receive 56 per cent of the sale moneys and the federal government to receive 50 per cent. The federal government distributes its share, but since 1912 the Indians have received nothing with respect to the 50 per cent return on the sale of land that goes to the province of British Columbia.
I used an order in council passed in 1939 as an illustration. Although the order in council enumerates the relevant sections of the agreement, it does not say that the land cannot be sold without the consent of the band.
I have previously expressed appreciation to the minister for the work of the director of Indian affairs. A few days ago I asked the director if he would try to find for me the authority for the consent of the band in this particular case. I am convinced that if it had been found I would have been advised by this date. It is felt that the Indian agent exercises authority in these sales.
I will not speak at great length, but I do want to emphasize this point. Although this problem goes back to 1912, it is a source of disturbance to the Indians of British Columbia. I have had only a few weeks in which to study the matter in addition to dealing with all the other problems which confront a member.
On the basis of my examination of the royal commission report on British Columbia Indian affairs, on the basis of the agreement, and on the basis of the type of order in council passed with respect to reserve land sales in British Columbia, I am definitely of the opinion, unless evidence to the contrary is produced, that the Indians have ground for complaint. I question the legality of the way in which this matter has been handled, and am of the opinion that the Indians of British Columbia have been morally, if not legally, wronged in the sale of their reserve land. I am interested in learning if the agreement
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Supply-Citizenship and Immigration is still law and if any other reserve lands belonging to British Columbia Indians can be auctioned, in respect of which they will receive 50 per cent return through the federal government but will lose 50 per cent through the provincial government.
I raise this matter because it is important, and I realize that the minister may not have had time in her brief term in office to study the problem. I believe the hon. lady will appreciate why I think it should be the subject of a judicial inquiry, and I hope she will offer some comment on the situation.


Mrs. Fairclough:: Mr. Chairman, perhaps I should deal first with the questions which were asked last evening by the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate, when he inquired as to the estimated expenditures for Indians on a per capita basis.
Based on the present population figure of 185,295 and the total estimated expenditure for 1961-62 of $49,421,488 for the Indian affairs branch, the per capita expenditure would be $266.72. In order to achieve a more realistic figure, additional expenditures on Indians by the Indian and northern health services of the Department of National Health and Welfare and also expenditures on Indian education in the Northwest Territories by the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources would have to be included.
I am informed that it is proposed to spend $19,500,000 on Indian health in 1961-62. This would involve an additional $105.24 per capita expenditure. I understand that the education of Indian pupils in the Northwest Territories will involve an expenditure of $2,285,127. On a nation-wide per capita break-down this amounts to $12.33. Therefore the total proposed per capita expenditure for 1961-62 would amount to $384.29. I remind hon. members that this figure does not include old age assistance, family allowances and other such social benefits of general application available to citizens of Indian status on the same basis as others.
The hon. member also asked for a report on some of the areas of regular employment in which Indians are moving, particularly in frontier areas. In British Columbia substantial numbers of Indians are employed in the logging and pulpwood industries. The department has established liaison with several companies which are planning new pulpwood and power projects, and expects these to provide additional job opportunities.
There were 128 Indians placed this year on clearing work for the microwave system along the Alaska highway. At Masset, British Columiba, 80 Indians are employed for nine or 10 months of each year in the local cannery. In the Yukon, clearing operations in connection with road construction included one


project at Watson Lake last winter which employed 100 Indians, and there is a similar project at that location this winter. In the Northwest Territories, at Yellowknife, a similar clearing project is currently employing approximately 100 Indians. Indians are also employed as school janitors and in other capacities by government departments. In Alberta over 160 Indians have been employed in clearing the right of way for a north-south pipe line, and this work is continuing.
These examples concern construction work largely. In Manitoba there have been similar projects at Cormorant lake and at Thompson. Currently over 100 Indians are employed at the Grand Rapids power development. These programs give them experience in wage employment which prepares them for other job opportunities as they occur. At Island Lake, Manitoba, a fish filleting plant provides wage employment for over 50 Indians for three to four months each summer. Many Manitoba Indians are employed by the railways as section hands and section foremen, and this also applies in northern Ontario.
Mining operations in northern Ontario provide employment to a considerable number of Indians in the Red Lake district. At Pickle Crow, Ontario, there are some 50 Indians employed as miners and on surface work. At Sudbury 25 were placed last year. Highway construction for a new iron ore development in Nakina agency employs 30 Indians. A sulphuric acid plant established on the Serpent river reserve No. 7 in the district of Algoma has employed approximately 20 Indians. At Scheflerville, Quebec, although the work force was substantially reduced last fall, 35 Indians were retained on the payroll out of approximately 125 employed. Many of the others are employed periodically on a day basis.
The foregoing presents a few examples of instances where groups of Indians are being employed on construction projects, particularly in the north. Smaller groups are making the adjustment to industrial employment. This is not a complete list, nor does it include mention of those individuals who have moved into steady employment under the permanent placement program.
This morning the hon. member for Skeena asked some questions and made some comments to which I should like to reply. He asked me whether I could give him the number of persons receiving welfare payments in each of the five categories, as set out in the statement made a year ago. We do not have these figures; I presume it would be possible to procure them, but I am told by my officials that it would entail two months work to do so. I doubt very much whether the answer would be sufficiently valuable to

the hon. member to warrant that expenditure of time and money. He also asked me about loans for housing which would be made from the $100,000 fund which appears in the vote to come up shortly, namely vote No. 480. With the agreement of the committee I will answer it now. The interest rate is 5 per cent simple interest for a period of 10 years. Although that is the ceiling, the period can be extended. The maximum amount permissible for a single loan is $5,000.
I must say my hon. friend is misinformed with reference to the number of Indians employed by the department. Altogether there are 255 Indians in the employ of the Indian affairs branch, 123 of whom are teachers. The others are employed in various categories, clerical and administrative jobs, superintendents and assistants, constables, caretakers, stenographers and typists and one classification of all other types of employment.


John Whitney Pickersgill: What is the total number of all employees of the Indian affairs branch?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: The number is 255, 132 general staff and 123 teachers.


John Whitney Pickersgill: No; those are Indians, are they not?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Yes.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I mean, what is the total number of employees in the department?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I see. I will get that figure for the hon. member. I might say that it is the aim of the department to employ these people whenever we can, and we do hope that as time goes on more and more of them will enter into the employ of the department. Altogether the number employed is 2,494. So you see that something just over 10 per cent of our staff are Indians.
The hon. member for Skeena made reference to the Kitwanga Indian band and the difficulties they are having with reference to the road which British Columbia is building in that area. First of all I might say that under the terms of the agreement with the province with respect to this land, the province has the right to take back 5 per cent of unimproved land for road purposes without any compensation. Of course the hon. member knows they have taken more than that, and we agree that the situation is not what it might be. At the present time we are in the process of negotiations with the province, and we have hired an independent appraiser to evaluate the property which has been taken.


Frank Howard: The minister said that by virtue of the agreement they have they can take up to 5 per cent without compensation. Can
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration the minister indicate what this agreement is or when it was consummated?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: The reserves were conveyed to the dominion by the province of British Columbia by a minute of the executive council on July 29, 1938. By that minute the province retained the right to resume unimproved land, to the extent of 5 per cent of the area transferred to the dominion, for roads and other public works, without payment of compensation. Therefore, in the case of the Kitwanga reserve No. 1, the province may resume approximately 165 acres of unimproved land and approximately 10 acres in the case of Kitwanga reserve No. 2.


Harold Edward Winch: That action was taken by executive minute, not by an act of the legislature? It was an executive council minute?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: The hon. member is quite right.


Harold Edward Winch: I am sorry to bother the minister, but does the minister, or do her advisers, know of any authority of the federal government whereby a provincial government can take over reserve land under an order in council and not by an act of the legislature? Is that authorized by the federal government, which has the responsibility for Indians?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: This was done under the terms by which the reserves were turned over in the first place.


Harold Edward Winch: In other words we are back to the McKenna-McBride agreement?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: No. I will give the hon. member a fuller explanation in reply to his question.
With reference to the matter raised by the hon. member for Vancouver East, this is as he has indicated. The director and the department have been spending a considerable amount of time in research, delving into the questions he has raised and the conditions under which these reserves were changed in the first place. His first inquiries to the department, or his main inquiry, had to do with Capilano Indian reserve No. 5. Before dealing specifically with that reserve I think possibly some background information applicable to all reserves in British Columbia might be helpful. I should say that this information is going forward to the hon. member in a letter from the director. I assume by his remarks he has not received it, but it is in the mail and should be on his desk now. However, it is interesting information and possibly I might make it available to the committee.
The British North America Act assigns legislative authority over Indians and lands reserved for the Indians to the dominion. Article 13 of the terms of union under which British Columbia entered

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration
confederation recognized the dominion's responsibility for Indians and Indian lands, and British Columbia undertook to convey to the dominion tracts of lands for the use and benefit of the Indians. Differences soon arose between the two governments as to the fair per capita acreage of reserves and in 1876 the two governments set up a joint commission to allot reserves.
The agreement constituting the joint commission and subsequent provincial legislation created legal and administrative difficulties with respect to dominion management of reserve lands. With a view to achieving a settlement of the difficulties, negotiations continued with the province which resulted in the McKenna-McBride agreement of September 24, 1912, The agreement provided for the appointment of a royal commission empowered to bring about "a final adjustment of all matters relating to Indian affairs in the province of British Columbia". The royal commission's terms of reference extended to the adjustment of the area of reserves with power to add to, and subtract from, the area of existing reserves and to allot new reserves, it being provided that reductions in area would be "with the consent of the Indians, as required by the Indian Act". The agreement also provided that 50 per cent of the proceeds from the disposal of any cut-off lands would be paid in trust for the benefit of the Indians.
The royal commission completed its work in 1916 and in brief confirmed existing reserves, added to reserves, reduced reserves and created new reserves. The commission's report with schedules of reserves confirmed by the commission was accepted by orders in council of both governments, by British Columbia in 1923 and the dominion in 1924.
The hon. member asked as to what reserves were affected and so on. The schedule attached to that commission's report will give that information.
Legislative authority for acceptance of the royal commission report by the dominion was provided by the British Columbia Indian Lands Settlement Act, chapter 51, statutes of Canada, 1920.
I must say here that the hon. member has been talking about so many things being done by order in council, and I draw his attention to the fact that this was an act of parliament.


Harold Edward Winch: In 1920, was it?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Yes.


Harold Edward Winch: This was agreed to in 1912.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: The actual legislative
authority was in 1920.


Harold Edward Winch: I have the orders here, and I should like to know how the governor general in council and the lieutenant governor in council in British Columbia could pass such an order in council when they did not have authority until 1920.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I do not know which orders in council the hon. member is referring to, but the orders in council to which my attention was drawn were those passed in 1923 and 1924.


Harold Edward Winch: There was one passed in November, 1912, in Ottawa and also one passed in British Columbia.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I believe that established the commission. Perhaps I might be permitted to go on and finish.
Section 1 of the act empowered the governor in council to give effect to the report of the royal commission "in whole or in part". Section 3 of the act dispensed with the necessity of securing Indian consent to the reduction of area of reserves by providing:
"For the purpose of adjusting, readjusting, or confirming the reductions or cut-offs from reserves in accordance with the recommendations of the royal commission, the governor in council may order such reductions or cut-offs to be effected without surrenders of the same by the Indians, notwithstanding any provisions of the Indian Act to the contrary."
There was considerable discussion in the House of Commons in 1920 when the bill was debated and the then minister outlined the problems relating to Indian lands in British Columbia and the reasons for the legislation.
As far as Capilano Indian reserve No. 5 is concerned, it was confirmed by the 1876 joint commission on June 15, 1877. The joint commission confirmed the original reserve together with an additional parcel of land. In 1892 it came to light that the province had made a grant of part of the land added to the reserve in 1877. The reserve was then re-surveyed and the commission on April 24, 1893, reconfirmed the reserve with an area of 444 acres.
The royal commission appointed pursuant to the McKenna-McBride agreement reduced the area of Capilano reserve by cutting off 130 acres. However, commission minute of decision gives no reason for the reduction. It is assumed the commissioners were of the opinion the remaining land was adequate for the needs of the band at the time. The Squamish band, for whom the reserve was set apart, as far as we know without going into extended research, never consented to the reduction. It is unlikely that consent was sought in view of the provisions of the British Columbia Lands Settlement Act and the fact that the report of the royal commission which recommended the reduction was accepted.
In other words, by reason of the law of 1920 consent by the band was not required.
In accordance with the agreement arrived at the band is entitled to 50 per cent of the proceeds from either the rental or sale of the cut-olf land.
As I have said, this information is in the mail to the hon. member. No doubt he will want to study it further, and if there is any further information we can give we will be very happy to do so.


Harold Edward Winch: I appreciate very much the length to which the minister has gone in dealing with the problem I have raised. However, I presume that the administration item will go through today; therefore this is the last opportunity I will have to speak on this matter. I should like to ask the minister two questions. I understood her to say that from the records it is shown right in the order in council to which I made previous reference that the Squamish band never did give permission for the sale of this land.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Not so far as we can tell. Without a great deal more research we could

not say definitely, but it does not appear that they did. However, as I pointed out to the hon. member, according to the conditions set out in the act passed in 1920 such consent was not required.


Harold Edward Winch: That is quite true according to the act of 1920, but according to the Mc-Kenna-McBride agreement of 1912 the Indians had to give their permission in accordance with the Indian Act for the province to be able to sell this land. The minister has now confirmed my contention that perhaps there should be a judicial inquiry into this entire matter.
Second, in view of the obvious study the minister has been making since I started to make inquiries about this matter-and she obviously knew, of course, that I would raise it under this vote-has the minister given any consideration to the moral right of anything being passed provincially or federally, legislatively or by order in council, which says that the Indians will only get 50 per cent of the value of the land disposed of? Admittedly the federal government pays the 50 per cent to the Indians, but is the minister in a position to comment as to the other half and the fact that the Indians only get 50 per cent and not 100 per cent of the value of the land sold?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Obviously I am not in a
position to make any comment. All of this happened a long, long time ago. I know that over the years the Indians have suffered under various acts of all governments, but I have no basis on which to form a judgment. I would not accuse anyone of mistreating Indians, nor would I accuse the Indians of demanding more than is their just right.
With respect to the McKenna-McBride report I would say to the hon. member, however, that the 1920 act superseded that, and it must be borne in mind that not only were lands taken away from the Indians but areas were also added to existing Indian reserves at that time. There was some compensation. Whether an individual band received compensation for the land it lost I cannot say, but in any event I will agree with the hon. member to this extent, that over the years undoubtedly things were done that should not have been done. I cannot, however, sit in judgment on anyone who participated in those actions.


Harold Edward Winch: I know it is now one o'clock, but I have only one short question and I would ask the committee to permit me to put it. Can the minister give me any information on this factor? Although we have the McKenna-McBride agreement of 1912 and the act of 1920, the fact remains that an order in council was passed in 1939 relative to sales. Are there are any lands still held by Indians
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration in British Columbia that can be sold or disposed of under the McKenna-McBride agreement?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: We would have to check the schedule to the agreement to which I referred previously.
At one o'clock the committee took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The committee resumed at 2.30 p.m.
Mr. Wratten:: Before I bring one or two points to the attention of the minister, I should like to take advantage of the opportunity to thank the minister and the officials of her department for the many courtesies they have shown me since I have been here and since the hon. lady has been minister. I should like to refer, first, to a problem which I have mentioned in the house many times before relating to the council for the administration of justice on the Six Nations reserve in Brantford. I know that the administration of the courts is a provincial matter, but I was interested this morning to hear the minister say that many years ago the federal government accepted responsibility for the reserves in Canada.
As I have stated before, the Six Nations reserve is in the county of Brant, the smallest county in the province of Ontario, and it is one of the largest reserves in Ontario. It does seem unfair that the people of the city of Brantford have to assume the costs in connection with county magistrates and supreme courts as they relate to Indians without any remuneration from the federal government. The federal government should help us out in connection with this matter, especially in these days when every municipality is looking for some way to ease the taxation burden on the people. We feel that this is one place where the federal government should step in and help us. I do not want to belabour this point because the minister is familiar with the figures. We have had them placed on the record before. She knows just how we feel about this matter.
There is another problem that has come up since I last spoke on the problems of Indians. I refer to the problem of policing the Six Nations reserve. I recall that quite a few years ago there was an agreement drawn up under which the Royal Canadian Mounted Police were to look after police matters on the reserve. Unfortunately, since we had the so-called riot on the reserve, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police have been gradually shifting the burden of looking after police matters to the provincial
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Supply-Citizenship and Immigration police. In my opinion this is not the way police matters should be administered in so far as the reserve is concerned. If the Royal Canadian Mounted Police are going to maintain a detachment of three or four men on the reserve to look after police matters, then they should do so and not pass on the calls to the provincial police. The Brantford city detachment of the provincial police is 12 to 14 miles from the centre of the reserve, and as a result the people on the reserve are not receiving adequate police protection when the provincial police are called. I wish the minister would look into the matter of the agreement between her department and the Department of Justice in order to ascertain just what the duties of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police are on this reserve. If they are supposed to be maintaining law and order then they should be ordered to do it instead of passing the job on to the provincial police.
There is one other important point I should like to bring to the attention of the minister. Newspaper reports would lead me to believe there has been some progress made in connection with this subject of fire protection on the reserve. Since I mentioned the matter last June there have been several fires on the reserve, in one of which four children were burned to death, and in another one person was burned to death. The Brantford city fire department is very efficient, as is the township fire department. These departments are fire prevention conscious and they have asked me to draw to the attention of the government the need for some firefighting equipment located on the reserve. I know that the chief of either of these fire departments would be glad to give advice on the establishment of such a department. I do not want to belabour this point because I do know some investigation has already been conducted into the matter. However, I do believe that for the sake of the safety of the people who live on the reserve we should go ahead quickly and establish fire fighting equipment on the reserve.
That is all I have to say at this time, Mr. Chairman.


Mr. Nielsen:: Mr. Chairman, I, like the hon. member who has preceded me, should like to extend my grateful thanks to the minister, to the director of the branch and to his staff for the very generous measure of assistance and co-operation they have given me during the past year. I should like to commend the branch particularly on the enlightened view that they have taken of the various suggestions which I have made from time to time and which have been of particular help to the Indian people in the


Yukon. In this connection I should like to mention the suggestion which I advanced last year concerning the construction of a road from Watson Lake to Ross river which resulted in employment for well over 100 Indian people in the Yukon for some four months. The same work continues this year.
I should like also to commend to the minister her staff at Whitehorse. There has been a substantial and noticeable improvement in the administrative quality of the personnel in the Whitehorse office. The superintendent there is a very dedicated person and I think the minister would go a long way before she would find someone who would be of such a high standard. There is, however, still a large gap in the staff at Whitehorse, a gap that will exist until a placement officer is found for the Yukon.
The minister will recall that I first brought this matter to her attention on March 12, 1959. Since that time I understand one competition has been held by the civil service but some difficulties were encountered and the position was not filled. I noted with interest in the minister's opening statement that a placement officer had been found for Prince George. I understood the original intention was that the placement officer for the Yukon agency was also going to cover this area as well. Perhaps she could clarify this matter if I am wrong. Perhaps she could also give me some idea as to when the placement officer will be found to occupy that position in the Yukon because there is a substantial need for one there.
In keeping with the compliments which I paid to the minister for the increased tempo of the work of the branch in the Yukon, I note with much satisfaction the figures for expenditures which have been made in the Yukon over the past three years. I understand that in 1956-57 the total expenditures in the Yukon were $224,250; in 1957-58, $350,984; and in 1958-59, up to March 31, 1959, $543,231.22. I should like the minister to bring me up to date on that last figure, to give me the figure for the complete fiscal year of 1958-59 and also the current figure for 1959-60 as far as it is possible to do so. From the figures I have been able to obtain it would appear that the expenditure from 1956 to date has more than doubled on an annual basis, something which is exceedingly gratifying to me.
In her opening remarks the minister also mentioned the grubstaking of trappers. I had not been fully aware of the fact that this was the policy of the branch and I should like her to tell me to what extent this policy of grubstaking trappers has been applied with regard to Yukon Indian people. While she is answering that question perhaps she might

also tell me whether this policy would extend to those Indian people in the Yukon who are engaged in prospecting for minerals.
I wish once again to dwell on an issue which I think should occupy the concentrated attention of the branch. I have said before that in the Yukon territory there are no reserves established for the Indian people. This situation has not changed. In every other jurisdiction in Canada the Indian people either have established Indian reserves or they have been paid in cash or kind in lieu of reserves being set aside for them. As the minister knows, the policy in the Yukon is for land to be set aside for the use of the Yukon Indian people by order in council, but these orders in council are flexible things and what is made an order in council today may next month cease to be an order in council or it may be varied.
During the construction of the Teslin airport or the enlargement of Teslin airport, for instance, under the past administration, the Indian reserve at Teslin was varied to the extent that reserve occupied land set aside for the use of Indians in that area was reduced in size in order to obtain for the Department of Transport sufficient land to accomplish their enlargement program. I do not think this procedure really is good enough. It certainly does not provide any too much long range security for the Indian people as to what they can regard as their own land. Again I should like to ask the minister or her officials to give this problem their concentrated attention. I feel that either the Indian people in the Yukon should have established entitlement to land, on an acreage basis if you will, so that they can look forward in the future to sharing in the resource discoveries as do the Indian people in other provinces or should be given something in lieu thereof.
I really do not know what the reason was for establishing reserves in the first place except that perhaps it may have been to satisfy the Indian people in the early days of settlement to the extent that they would be guaranteed a permanent and exclusive place in which to live, to farm, to raise livestock and so on. But, perhaps because of the small number of Indian people in the Yukon, this policy was not followed up there, historically. The fact remains that they have no land which they can call their own. They are the only Indian people in the whole of the Dominion of Canada who have not either been given land that they can call their own or payment in cash or kind in lieu thereof.
Passing to the education of the Indian people in the Yukon, I would once again urge the minister to co-operate with her colleagues in other federal government departments,
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration particularly the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources, to establish vocational training facilities for the Yukon Indian children. I am aware of the fact that the Indian affairs branch has an on the job training policy whereby the young Indian people can obtain employment with an employer and the department pays 50 per cent of the wages that are usually paid to the apprentice or to the learner in the trade during the months that he is an apprentice.
I believe this policy extends to a six months' training period. However, I am just wondering how far it would go, for instance, if an Indian boy wanted to become skilled in the trade of electrician or plumber. These are questions that have often been asked.
Incidentally, may I say that I have referred some of these applicants or proposed applicants of Indian parentage who wished to obtain on the job training to the territorial government authorities who have informed me that they have no knowledge of any agreement existing between the territorial government and any federal government department with regard to on the job training. I do not think this is so. I think that the on the job training policy of the Indian affairs branch applies equally to the Yukon Territory and to any other jurisdiction in Canada.
May I also suggest that the Indian affairs branch policy in this regard be extended so that an Indian youth who, for instance, wishes to take training on a caterpillar tractor, a crane or a shovel or heavy equipment of that nature, may be encouraged to undergo training with some of the local contractors in the construction business during the winter season when their equipment is not working and when it could be gainfully and usefully utilized in the training of Indian boys. This is not training in a skill in the sense of one becoming an electrician or a plumber. But it does make for training operators of heavy equipment who would be available in the local labour pool when the seasonal construction of roads and the like commences in the spring and summer. I forget which hon. member on the other side of the house mentioned the desirability of retaining this native labour pool in the north. In my view this is one manner in which this could be accomplished.
I also wonder whether the minister would enlarge on the policy, if there is one in the branch, which provides similar training for girls. Indian girls are as much in need of this type of vocational training as are Indian boys. Now that there is a rather complex health and welfare administration set up throughout the north, I wonder just how far the branch could go in encouraging this type
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Supply-Citizenship and Immigration oi training among the Indian girls. I wonder whether they could establish a policy of taking them into established hospitals and training them as nursing aids, and even at this point encouraging them, and perhaps even establishing scholarships for this purpose, to take nursing training so that they could return to the north and not only make a good living but set an example for those who may wish to follow.
I would also like some statistical information from the officials of the department, if it is possible, on this matter. I would like to know what the contribution has been by the Indian affairs branch to education generally in the Yukon territory. If that could be broken down to a per capita figure it would be even more useful, so that I could compare it with education costs generally in the Yukon and with the contributions made by other federal departments on a per capita basis.
I would like to know also what those contributions have been in respect of separate schools as opposed to non-denominational schools. Does the policy of making these contributions extend beyond those made strictly to schools; does the policy extend to the establishment of hostels and other boarding-in institutions which may be set up in the north?
While I am dealing with that point I would be critical, if I may, of the policy of the branch with regard to the rigid interpretation and the technical application of the act in so far as it affects Indian children attending Indian hostels. I feel there could very well be exceptions made here. In fact, in my view there are exceptions which could and must be made to the application of these regulations.
I have a current case in mind which I should like to relate to the minister. The case concerns Rosemary Lowe, who is the daughter of an Indian woman in the Yukon, Mrs. Mary Etzertza Lowe, who by her first husband had several children. Her first husband died and she remarried a white man four years later. Of that marriage there was the one issue, Rosemary Lowe. Three months or thereabouts after marrying the white Yukoner she left simply because circumstances would not permit continued living as a family unit.
The children have grown up to the point where they are attending school. Rosemary's three brothers are in the Roman Catholic hostel at Whitehorse. Mrs. Lowe worked there and I suppose because she was working there she was allowed to keep Rosemary in the hostel. All these children were attending the same school. Now Mrs. Lowe has left the


hostel and has a permanent job in the hospital, and it appears there is some doubt as to the status of Rosemary and some doubt as to whether she will be allowed to remain in the hostel.
If the department cannot make exceptions in these cases we will find that Rosemary will be taken out of the wholesome atmosphere of the hostel, away from the affection of her brothers, away from the family unity that exists in the hostel and will be required to live in some miserable, squalid shack on the outskirts of the city.
I think these circumstances are sufficiently compassionate to allow a discretionary sympathy to be extended toward people who find themselves in these circumstances. While I am writing to the minister separately on this particular case, I certainly would like to know the over-all approach of the branch in the future to problems of a similar nature, because this case is not isolated; it can be repeated and repeated.
One further point that I wish to raise for the minister's consideration concerning education is the policy of the territorial government to recommend the cessation of family allowances paid on behalf of children, including Indian children, in the Yukon for irregular or non-attendance at school. In these cases the superintendent of education, as the minister knows, recommends to the family allowances division that the family allowances cease to be paid because of the non-attendance or irregular attendance of the child. In the case of Indian children I would strongly suggest that the minister speak to her colleague or someone in the family allowances division with a view to having a procedure set up whereby before making this type of recommendation the superintendent of education should check with the superintendent of the agency in Whitehorse, because there may be special circumstances which justify the irregular or non-attendance of these children. It does cause hardship among the very low income earning group at the best of times when these family allowances are abruptly cut off.
I would also like the minister to bring me up to date on the considerations which have been given by the branch to the Teslin cooperative society which I first suggested in June of 1959. The minister will recall that at that time I suggested that a big game guide co-operative be set up for the Teslin people.
I would also like the minister to give me her assurance that the trapping grounds of the Old Crow people will be held inviolate for the use of those people.
I would also suggest that the branch investigate the feasibility of setting up a cooperative among the Yukon Indian people to manufacture and market Indian handicrafts.

In this connection the Yukon Indian advancement association, an association unique of its kind is doing some extremely good work. But I believe they could do with a good deal of assistance. These co-operative societies are working well in the Northwest Territories with the Eskimo and Indian people. They are working very well with the Saskatchewan Indian people, and in my view in an area such as the Yukon territory, where the branch is 100 per cent responsible for the Indian people, a good deal more attention could be paid to accelerating the establishment of this type of endeavour.
Then, too, the director of the Indian affairs branch will recall that in June 1958 he held consultations with the various leaders of the Indian people in the Yukon and they put forward several requests and representations. One of the requests put forward by the Dawson Indian people was for a freezer. This same request was put forward by the people of Teslin. I am wondering whether these units have been established in these places and whether they will be established in other localities in the Yukon. If they have not been established in Dawson and Teslin and if it is not the intention of the branch to establish these units elsewhere in the Yukon, I am wondering why.
I should also like the minister to inform me of the amount that the branch has contributed to the general health and welfare of the Yukon Indian people as opposed to the amount spent on education. I am wondering if there have been any grants made to Whitehorse hospital, Mayo hospital or Dawson hospital and if any other grants along those lines have been made. If the minister has figures available I should like to know how many new homes have been constructed for the Indian people in the Yukon Territory since 1957. I wish to know what those houses cost to build and how many families they have accommodated.
I also wish to know from the minister if the particular housing problem that the Dawson people have been saddled with has yet been solved. There are new homes there which I understand have not yet been occupied because of the refusal of the city council of Dawson to pass them as being fit for habitation. I believe the question involved is that of adequate plumbing.
One further feature of the administration of Indian affairs in the Yukon Territory to which I should like to draw the attention of the minister is the policy of the territorial government of the moment which is such that it does not participate in the payment of any old age assistance to the Indian people there. I believe that this is wrong. In my opinion the Indian people of the Yukon are
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration entitled to receive old age assistance benefits in the same sense as they are provincially.
The Yukon Indian is a consumer of beer. He is lawfully entitled to buy beer in the Yukon and thereby contributes substantially to the tax coffers of the territorial treasury. There would appear to be no reason why this discrimination should exist between the aged Indian people and the aged non-Indian citizens there. Perhaps the minister could take this up with her colleague the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources with a view to seeing what could be done through the commissioner-in-council in the Yukon.
There is another facet of the administration of the territorial government to which I wish to call the minister's attention. As the hon. lady knows, the children's aid society has now been taken over by the territorial administration. To be more accurate, I should say that the work previously done by the Yukon children's aid society has now been assumed by the territorial administration. The territorial administration, I feel, is paying more than its fair share of the cost of this work. I have here some figures which have been supplied to me concerning the number of welfare cases that have been handled in the Yukon during the period April 1 to October 31, 1960.
It would appear that of the number of individuals worked with in circumstances where protective welfare assistance was required, 62.5 per cent of the number of cases involved were Indian people. I do not believe the Indian affairs branch is yet making any contribution to the territorial government in this work. If I am wrong, perhaps the minister can set me straight. Of the number of individuals worked with, 63.7 per cent involved Indian children. Of the children in care during this period, 45 per cent were children of Indian status and with respect to the number of children in care as compared with the number of individuals worked with, the percentage is the same, 45 per cent.
In my view the branch should be making a contribution toward the cost of the welfare work which is being done by the territorial government. Otherwise that government is circumscribed. Its revenues permit it to go only so far in welfare work. It simply does not have the funds to even bring its welfare efforts up to standards comparable with those that exist in the provinces to the south. I should be very grateful if the minister would answer these several questions.


Hubert Badanai: Mr. Chairman, during the discussion on the resolution, I suggested that education was one of the principal factors in
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Supply-Citizenship and Immigration bringing about an improvement in the economic conditions in which our Indian people find themselves. I stressed particularly the need for scholarships. The minister at one point made the statement that the government has in operation a program of scholarships for Indian students which includes girls entering the nursing profession. Will the minister indicate to what extent this program has been implemented, how many scholarships have been awarded to Indian pupils during the past year-if she has these figures -and particularly the number awarded to girls going into training in a hospital school of nursing and the amount of these scholarships? I would be particularly interested to know if any scholarship has been awarded to any young pupil from northwestern Ontario and more particularly in the district of Thunder Bay.
The minister did make some statements with regard to vocational training. This is an important matter which perhaps exceeds in importance even the need for higher learning, so far as young Indians are concerned. I should like to know if there is anything in the estimates of the department to provide for the establishment of vocational training for young Indians in the district of Thunder Bay and more particularly in the lakehead cities of Fort William and Port Arthur.
These are some of the questions on which I should like to hear the minister's comment. The hon. lady has been very generous in her remarks and answers. I do not wish to repeat all that has been said during the discussion. I believe the minister has been very explicit with respect to some points brought out but the questions of scholarships and vocational training are of great importance to me and to the district in which I live. I hope the minister will be in a position to give these answers particularly with respect to the amount involved in these scholarships.


Mr. Speakman:: Mr. Chairman, it is not very often that I find myself in agreement with the hon. member for Skeena, but he did comment on a facet of Indian affairs this morning that I should like to touch on as well, and I can do no better to emphasize what the hon. member has said than by quoting from what an hon. member said in the other place. I have to read two paragraphs to make it clear. I am quoting from page 349 of Hansard of the Senate:
Canada may be justifiably proud of her record in her dealings with the Indians. Her record is not spotless, of course, but it is the cleanest in the world. A foremost authority on Indians pays tribute to the Canadian record when he says, "It means much that there is one commonwealth in the western world-there is only one-which
[Mr. Badanai.l

from beginning to end has shown moral integrity in dealing with Indians and has kept the faith." It is to Canada that this authority refers.
Honourable Senators, this is probably higher praise than we non-Indian Canadians deserve. Canada has in the past made mistakes in dealing with our Indian population,-
And this, Mr. Chairman, is the part of the hon. senator's remarks that I should like to emphasize:
-in that our paternalistic attitude and laws have taken from the Indian his self-sufficiency and independence.


Frank Howard: May I ask the hon. member a question? I just did not get whom he was quoting.


James Stanley Speakman: An hon. member of the other place.


Frank Howard: Name, please.


James Stanley Speakman: Honourable Senator Fer-gusson.
I have several matters which have not been raised during the discussion of this item which I should like to raise now. One is a matter of very great concern certainly in the district from which I come, which I have the honour to represent and which has a fairly large and quite prosperous Indian population. I refer to the constant sale of spirituous liquor to Indians, which is contrary to the law. I have taken this matter up with the Department of Justice on several occasions, because it is the Department of Justice which, through the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, is responsible for the police supervision. I would suggest that in addition to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Indian constables with the power to arrest be appointed, because these are the people who are best known to the Indians on the reserves and they are the people who would best be able to guide them. We have an infestation-and I call it that-of both white and breed people on the fringes of our reserves who make their living by selling liquor to Indians. I would also suggest to the government that the penalty for such offence be increased very materially, because this is very serious indeed and leads to a serious impairment of the morals of our younger Indians.
I should also like to ask the minister whether she could provide more technical training for our Indian students? By this I do not mean reserve or separate schools of any nature. I should like to see our brighter Indian students given the opportunity to attend existing and proposed technical and vocational schools and be taken into those schools. We have excellent schooling facilities for our Indians up to a point in the province of Alberta, and I am particularly proud that on the reservations in my constituency we

have one of the finest Indian schools in Canada, which is run by one of the churches; but I think this matter of further training, and particularly trades training, is important, because our Indians are getting closer and closer to assuming equal status with the non-Indians, and I think they must be in a position to stand on their own feet when they do eventually assume this status.
I must compliment the minister and the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources, the duty of whose department it is to maintain the Indian health services. I think this is one of the finest improvements that has taken place in Canada over the years. The health of our Indian population has improved and continues to improve because of the increasingly better medical and hospital facilities provided. I should like to suggest that the Indian reserves should be provided with welfare people distinctly for themselves and not those who are dealing with the whole population. I am quite sure that within a very short time such workers may be found amongst the Indians themselves. I think our Indians are entitled to all federal welfare services comparable with those enjoyed by the non-Indians. I feel there are some deficiencies in this regard.
As I said before, the Indians in my district are prosperous. They have very rich producing oil wells on their reserve which are bringing them in a major income. They are ambitious; they are good farmers and they want to expand their farming operations. I suggest to the government that credit facilities, outside of band funds, which are available to non-Indians be made available to Indians. I am thinking of such facilities as the Farm Credit Corporation, the industrial credit corporation, the National Housing Act and so forth. Housing is being provided now by the government and from band funds.
The housing for Indians is excellent in my constituency. They are almost completely housed in new dwellings. They are getting electric power. With the expansion of credit facilities they would be able to put in water and plumbing, modernize their homes and get telephone service, things which we non-Indians take for granted, things which they have been very slow to acquire. With additional credit facilities they would very quickly instal these services and move one step closer to complete equality with their white Canadian brothers.
I should like to bring one other matter to the attention of the minister and ask her officials to take it into consideration. I refer to the matter of traffic speed in the village of Hobbema. Up until a few years ago the provincial department of highways provided restricted speed signs on the two approaches
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration to the village on No. 2 Alberta highway. However, they removed those signs and made the statement that the responsibility belonged to the federal authority. I ask the minister and her officials to consider the installation of traffic lights at the two approaches through this hamlet because over the past several years we have had several very tragic highway deaths there.


Mr. McFarlane:: Mr. Chairman, first I should like to express my appreciation to the minister and also to the officials of her department of the assistance which they have given me at all times in my own area, especially during many trying times.
At this time I should like to bring to the attention of the department a matter which I believe is of importance. About a year ago through a resolution a contract was made with the Emerald Christmas Tree Company Limited in my area, and the Columbia lake Indian reserve No. 3.
This contract was made for a 30-year period. I just cannot quite visualize, Mr. Chairman, a contract being made for that length of time. I believe some advice as to the contract should have been given to the band concerned before it was signed. I believe it is part of the functions of the department to advise bands as to which way they are going and particularly with respect to a long term contract. I also believe that any business would hesitate before entering into a 30-year contract, particularly a new contract being made for the first time. This was the first time that this had occurred in my area, and in my opinion we should take some action in this matter.
Shortly after the contract was signed I was advised that the contract itself did not come before the council. It was signed by the chief of the band, something which I have confirmed with the department. I have a copy of the resolution here and also a copy of the contract. It was very unfortunate that the resolution was presented to the chief of the band at a time when he had just returned home from hospital and was recovering from a serious stroke. I do not believe it should have been presented to him at that time without witnesses being there representing the department or representing a group in the area interested in the affairs of the band.
The Christmas tree business is a highly competitive one. It is not a business that can be picked up on the spur of the moment by anyone and I believe that the opportunity should have been advertised so that all Christmas tree companies in the area would have had a chance to bid before a contract was signed with any individual company.
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Supply-Citizenship and Immigration I have here a copy of a letter I have received from the department which reads in part as follows:
The company has until April 30, 1960, to submit a report on the first year's operation-
I should like to reiterate that this was the first year of operation after the signing of the contract. I am not sure as to the exact date of signing.
-at which time a meeting with all concerned is proposed to discuss and iron out any difficulties encountered. The manager of the company has been away recently but, on his return, all problems will be fully discussed-
I am not criticizing the local officials of the department but at the same time I think a 30-year contract is beyond all reason. At the request of the council I met the Indians in September of last year. I met the band chief and also 20 other members of the band at which time the chief told me in the presence of the band members that he did not sign the resolution and that he also had no knowledge of any portion of the contract. He said that one sheet of paper was presented to him and that he did not sign it. I have recently confirmed that at a time when he was just getting over his illness he apparently did sign it and possibly did not know what he was signing.
There has been a certain amount of trouble in the past season with respect to Christmas trees in that area and I believe owing to the efficiency of the local officials the matter has been straightened out to some extent. Certainly there is a feeling developing in the area against a contract of this nature. I think the department would be well advised to look into the matter very carefully and take into consideration all the facts with respect to operations in the past year. I sincerely hope they will shortly have a report on the operations during the past winter, and I believe that the matter should be given some consideration because of the competition that is developing in the Christmas tree business.
There is one other point I should like to bring to the attention of the department. I should like to suggest that five members representing the Indian bands of Canada from districts which can be designated at some future time should be elected to the House of Commons so that they themselves can bring their difficulties directly to the floor of the House of Commons. We have already made a start during the regime of the present government by the appointment of an Indian to the other place. It appears to me to be ridiculous that hon. members should bring the difficulties of the Indians to the floor of the House of Commons when they, the Indians, are more familiar with their problems than any other group in Canada.


William Moore Benidickson: Mr. Chairman, I simply want to refer to a few items that are of concern to the people of our area where, as the minister knows, we have quite a substantial Indian population. We have four rather large Indian residential schools, all of which have required expansion. I think the minister will be very glad to know that she can expect from me today many more bouquets than brickbats. Our experience with the progressive developments made by the department has been a very good one during the past year. I saw the McIntosh school recently and the magnificent new addition there. The staff there are extremely pleased with their plant. The school offers a good practical training in home economics, woodworking and so on and is really a most excellent operation that cannot be bettered in other schools anywhere else in the country.
I want to remind the minister that in the Sioux Lookout and Dryden areas there are still a very substantial number of children living in the country northward for whom there is no accommodation at any of our schools in those areas. The schools are all too crowded. Neither location is asking for a school to be located there. Therefore I am satisfied that when the need is presented to me it is not based on any local enthusiasm for the construction of a building or school simply for its value to the community along commercial lines. I have written recently about the matter. I think it was brought up in debate here last year at which time it was said that an investigation would be made. Perhaps the minister has something to report in that regard.
I want to say one more thing about education. Recently I wrote to the department and pointed out that the trend that has been operative for quite a number of years now of trying to increase the number of day schools and thus avoid the separation of families is in my opinion a very worth-while development. I referred to one school where there seemed to be the kind of staff likely to provide good training in the practical arts and talents of home economics for the girls and woodworking and machine shop practice for the boys. I think these facilities are available in all four of our residential schools. I know it is hard to get staff but it would seem unfortunate if in developing the day school system we have schools where such courses could be given and are not available. I think that these facilities should be provided where possible.
A good example is Whitefish Bay. The minister knows our area because she has been a welcome visitor there. Whitefish Bay is situated midway between Fort Frances and Kenora. Because of the tourist industry

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration
there are probably 200 licensed camps in that area and I do not know of any Indian band that has had more social contacts and social contacts with our white race of a very pleasant nature than the band there.
You know how guides, in particular, fraternize with those whom they are guiding and how friendly they become. The guests we have are mostly people from the United States. Great numbers of them are from the very highest business and other levels with experience in so many walks of life. This has been a wonderful thing for all people in our area. These people from the United States like the Indians immensely and treat them in an exceptionally fine manner. However, the school in that area does not provide practical training. These Indians are not going to be able to follow up this very desirable social inclination they have by getting employment in technical and other good occupations if they are not given something more than reading and writing at the day school. I would be sorry if these families had to be separated in order that some children might attend the residential schools to attain practical vocational skills.
I am very delighted with the progress that has been made during the last 12 months on the economic opportunity side. I know that this has been the result of a long term program given a push under the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate and the former minister Mr. Harris as well as the present minister. I know the present minister will agree that it is good to see some progress here. It is difficult to get the trained staff necessary to supervise some of these industrial aspects. I know that at Lac Seul in the last couple of years we have had timber cutting supervised right on the reserve during the winter months. This has provided employment for as many as 60 Indians, and instead of working for outsiders they are actually operating on the reserve under their supervisor. It has been a very successful operation. As long as it proves successful and economic, as I believe it has, I am very glad to find that the department decided not to put the area out for competitive bids to outside white contractors who would simply be employers of the Indians on these Indian lands.
I know that there are now being made available in areas like this department financed saw mills which are provided out of such appropriations as we are voting here today. I should like a little more information as to the utilization of the revolving loan fund. Within the past 12 months what volume of lending has been done from this fund which, I believe, amounts basically to a half million
dollars? We understand the way in which revolving fund loans are made and payments are expected.
I should like to refer now to commercial fishing. I commend the minister and her officials upon the fact that during the past 12 months there has been a considerable increase in filleting machinery that has been made available, provision for ice and so on. I hope this will mean that from now on the waste products in connection with the fish catch will be left in the north and the Indian will not have to pay the high costs of air transportation of these non-edible products down to the railhead. This should result in a higher return for the fish catch. I observe that some progress is being made by the department. I know the department is handicapped in some areas because the Indians must get a provincial licence in order to obtain an adequate fishing area which will support the number of people in the band who have few other sources of livelihood but fishing. Some progress has been made with the provincial government, and I want to give credit where credit is due.
I think that last year's development in Ontario which resulted in giving the collection of wild rice exclusively to the Indians was a very desirable step. I know that in connection with fishing the department is attempting to make sure that the fish is not going to be sold by the Indian, through ignorance or otherwise, at less than the best market price. I believe a tender system is operated in this respect. In so far as the wild rice crop is concerned, which is an extremely valuable one, I wonder if the department is exercising some kind of check on the actual price being received by the Indians for this crop. We know that the consumer prices that prevailed before this became an Indian preserve were fairly high, and even on a wholesale selling basis before it found its ultimate market in Chicago.
I have already had correspondence with the minister which indicates that the provincial department of forestry is happy to recruit Indians for its summer junior forest ranger program. This is down in black and white. The department believes the Indians are really superior for this type of work which requires that they be mobile. They must jump from one forest fire threat to another, and so on. The provincial department recognizes that for a certain period of time the Indian finds himself able to live longer without permanent accommodation and without boredom than some of our young white people are able to do. I think this type of program should be extended for Indians' employment.

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I wonder if the minister would just bring us up to date on the relief assistance scales that are now applicable with respect to payment both in cash and in kind for indigent Indians. I read last year that at least one of the Indian agencies has an Indian superintendent. I was wondering to what extent the department is finding that Indians are leaving school with a background of education adequate to meet some of the requirements for clerical positions and other of the better positions in the agencies from which they could advance to the superintendency, as this one Indian did. I believe it was at the Muskeg lake reserve in Saskatchewan. I was wondering in how many instances Indians attain senior positions in the agencies.
I indicated to the minister that I have found some difficulty with respect to the financial responsibility for children born of Indian women and white men where the white man is either known or unknown and, if known, is perhaps a transient. He has no record of residence in any one municipality which would indicate that he belongs to that municipality. I am speaking now really of neglected children under these circumstances. As I understand it, the children's aid society has to go to the courts and get an order naming the party or government responsible for the maintenance of this neglected child. As I understand it, our constitution does not make it possible for the courts, under any provincial welfare legislation to impose a liability on the federal government. The court is obliged to name a municipality as responsible for maintenance of the child of an unknown white father. I should like to have a statement if the minister is prepared to give us one.
I know this matter is bothering a great number of the municipalities which are extremely poor, particularly those in some sections of my riding. As the minister knows, some are in remote areas. I am thinking of the rural areas where really there is just a little bit of tree farming and pulpwood cutting and there are practically no taxable assets on which to build up for municipalities of this kind an assessment which will allow them to make many payments of this nature. The burden is heavier in our area than most because of the proximity of Indian bands and the fact that there is a greater number of these deserted Indian children.
This matter was brought very much to my attention by some of the childrens aid societies recently. As you know, Mr. Chairman, there are probably more people seeking to adopt healthy white children than there are children available. I refer to children without handicap and who are in every way normal. Unfortunately, however, out in our

area I am told that a high percentage of the children who must be maintained for long periods of time by the children's aid society are of mixed blood and that they are not being placed so readily, particularly because our population of those seeking children is not large. The children of mixed parentage are a little bit different in appearance and somehow these children are just not taken to their hearts as quickly as are white children. This situation is proving to be a financial burden on the children's aid societies which, as you know, canvass in substantial part for voluntary givings in order to carry on their work.
It is the deserted Indian child, and particularly the Indian child of mixed blood, that is of great concern in our area in this province. We are a long distance from the big populations where prospective parents might be found in greater numbers. If we had more people nearby I am sure that the record would be a little bit better. I am also sure that if many of the prospective parents were not in the heavy population centres more than 1,000 miles away but actually on the scene to see these attractive children the situation would be different. But when they are obliged simply to correspond with respect to a child of this background they get only this description, and there is a tendency to lose interest.
The department is frank, and I think properly so. They are quite honest and frank about the description of the children they have. If it is obvious that they are Indian children or of mixed blood, I think the children's aid society tells a correspondent. As I say, the heart appeal of these children face to face not being seen, disinterest sets in. I think this matter would be something that would be of interest to our several children's aid societies for which it is a problem, and to the municipalities which are very much concerned about it.
I think I have been fairly complimentary so far but I wish to say this. Much and all as we appreciate the fact that after a number of years of assurances we are going to get a replacement residential school at Fort Frances for the 50 years old edifice that has been there, I hope that this experience can be looked upon as rather an example of how difficult it is to co-ordinate with the Department of Public Works in order to assure that some of this kind of work is made available in the winter time.
I tried valiantly, as everybody knows, before the winters of 1958-59, in 1959-60, and again last year very actively even a little bit as to the program for 1960-61, with regard to work on this project which I think was originally promised by the former minister in

the spring of 1957. The hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate persuaded his colleagues that this building needed replacement but just this month we are calling for tenders. As the minister knows, in our part of the country unless you get your foundations, your piles down and so on down much earlier than in February, nothing is going to open up there until late spring. It is not only a matter of delay with respect to work but it is also matter of delay in the availability ultimately of school rooms or classrooms themselves. I think it was four years ago now that officials of the department said that the pipes, heating equipment and other things were so far gone that they were not worth replacement and they have been somewhat of a danger since then. However, as I say, we are pleased that tenders have been called.
However, I think this is in part the responsibility of the Department of Public Works. They tell me, of course, that they made plans and that they had to go back several times for revisions. I think there is some improvement in the Indians affairs branch though with respect to winter work. It has taken three or four years and a fair amount of agony, I suppose, in all places including those that see the matter from a point of view of constituencies. However, I know that a year ago there was not a single project that I had on the calendar that was forecast in our riding-not a single thing, including this one-for the winter 1959-60 where tenders were actually called in time for the work to be utilized in the winter works program.
I wish to share the views of the hon. member for Wetaskiwin who spoke so recently about the improvement that has taken place on the health scene. In the further remote areas I think there may be still quite a bit to do. We have a relatively new hospital established in Sioux Lookout. When I say "relatively new" I mean that it has been there for perhaps 12 or 13 years. For a number of years, while its rated capacity was 65 beds I think the average occupancy would be 130. So successful has this hospital been in this area-they have been dealing with the tuberculosis problem largely -that in a period of about ten years I think they are back again to the normal rate in so far as occupancy is concerned because the case load or the case need has gone down to that extent as a result of the work done in the last ten years.
I thank the minister for listening patiently to some of these problems. There is one which I should perhaps mention also-I have not brought my correspondence with me- and I refer to the Red Lake situation. The minister is well acquainted with it as is the 90205-6-137
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration director particularly. I know of the difficulties here. It is something that is normally part of the responsibility of the provincial ministers for education, housing and welfare. It is thus in large part normally, if it is an off-reserve problem, something that is the responsibility of the province of Ontario. In fact, the province of Ontario is a little bit jealous with regard to maintaining secure its responsibility for health matters and education matters. But this matter has been really of such a deplorable nature in this area that it has received the attention of professional health specialists, anthropologists and others who have gone up there. The minister is familiar with the Morris report. I sent to her the recent report of the district officer of health, Dr. Langford. The last word was that a further attempt would be made to see the provincial government authorities to determine whether something could be done. In my opinion the first thing that has to be tackled there is housing. These shacks are not fit for human habitation. I thought- I think this was before the minister's time- that when we raised such a rumpus about this matter certain amendments were made to the regulations with respect to housing loans that would permit the department to make off-reserve housing loans.
I was given to understand that the whole purpose of making these amendments about four years ago was so that this particular situation might be taken on in part by the department of Indian affairs as a pilot project. I have always called it a bridge project, meaning some responsibility being assured by the department in the period when Indians living on the reserve take a step forward, leave the reserve and start to live alongside the white man.
I thought the department just could not so promptly wash its hands completely of responsibility for Indians who have no security in employment, just because technically they had left the reserve to see how they would get along economically in the white man's territory. This has been a long standing cancer in the Red Lake area; there has been practically no progress on any side.
I was very disappointed when told a year or so ago that this new regulation, contrary to what I thought it was designed to achieve, was not going to be invoked for this purpose. I was told that we should go to Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation and try to get them to take on the responsibility for housing here. This is not practicable, as the minister knows. The minister knows the standards of Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation. That is not the next stage of improved housing for these Indians, from a shack, pictures of which the minister has seen. The minister
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Supply-Citizenship and Immigration knows that the next step is not even a minimum standards house under Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation regulations.
I went to the municipality last fall and suggested that they adopt a land assembly plan. I did my best to see whether I could take advantage of the opportunities afforded under Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation. They have pretty high rates of interest now, but they are lower than the standard rates of interest if it is a non-profit type of housing development being authorized and sponsored by a municipality. I thought that perhaps they could help in this regard. However, I was told by the reeve and others -and I saw his point-that they could not sponsor a housing scheme in a municipality where the housing scheme was discriminatory; that is, when it was designed for a certain class of people.
He said, "If we open up a subdivision over in what is called Tomahawk village, with the idea that it will be to improve the housing of Indians who have lived there for some while under these deplorable conditions, and if we develop that into lots, we cannot say it must be restricted to those who are living there now". I rather saw his point.
I tried something else in the meantime. I tried to persuade the service clubs in the area to create a pilot housing scheme of small units similar to the type of housing scheme which had been developed, as the minister knows, by service clubs, legions and other well-intentioned community organizations, I think largely for the aged in the past. I think in the Hamilton area we had one of the first of these schemes, the Burlington scheme. However, I do not think this is going to be seized upon because the white population is very small and service clubs usually have a membership of not over 25, or something like that.
I still think that where there is a will there is a way and I would hope that in connection with education and this housing problem another look will be given at the matter and another attempt will be made to try and do something in co-operation with the provinces, which are admittedly in this field.
I just do not see too much prospect of help from the municipalities in this regard. As a matter of fact, I think the program has had municipal status for only one and one-half or two years. So I think the situation, unfortunately, is just as bad as it was when originally talked about four or five years ago.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, I have accumulated quite a few questions here. Perhaps it would be well if I handled some of


those that have come up to this stage of the discussion. The hon. member for Yukon asked a number of questions. I do not think I can answer them all from information which is available in this committee at this time, but I can assure him that those questions I cannot answer right now will be the subject of a report to him at the earliest possible moment.
With reference to the placement officer, the one mentioned in my statement with reference to Prince George is not the one that is being selected this week, we hope, by the board of selection. That matter will be processed just as quickly as possible. The establishment for Prince George is in the current estimates and of course we cannot proceed until the estimates are passed.
With reference to the grubstaking of trappers, I mentioned this yesterday in my introductory statement. The hon. member asked whether this scheme could be extended to prospectors. The answer is yes, it could be. I might also tell him that funds are available for any trapper who wishes to apply under this allotment.
With reference to the establishment of reserves in the Yukon, the hon. member will know that the lands in the Yukon, while not formally classified as reserves, are classified as areas reserved for Indians, This applies to both the Northwest Territories and the Yukon. Of course, they are not reserves within the meaning of the Indian Act but they are areas reserved for the use of Indians. There are some 15 of them in the Yukon and 10 in the Northwest Territories.
The hon. member asked me a question with reference to houses. In the year 1959-60 there were 22 built in the Yukon having a total value of $52,165. In 1960-61 there were 15 built, having a total value of $45,000. The information we have on hand does not go back to 1957, which I believe is the year about which the hon. member asked.
The hon. member asked a question with reference to the amount expended on Indian education in the Yukon. The amount, which he will find in the report of the department for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1960, was $1,291,883.02. I believe he asked for that figure to be broken down further, but we do not have those figures here. We will be glad to supply that information to him at a future date.
With reference to on the job training, there are facilities for both boys and girls to receive this type of training. I do not believe we have experimented to date with off-training such as he suggested with equipment which is idle. We do make facilities available for

any boy or girl who has a bent in a given direction, and where we can place them with employers, we do so.
For instance, the Department of National Health and Welfare are training nurses' aids constantly in their hospitals. With regard to such other training as is available to girls, the door is open for them to take advantage of any opportunities that are available. If we have specific cases and specific individuals we are glad to try and place them in jobs with the co-operation of the employers where they can learn a useful trade.
Some of the information which my hon. friend asked for with relation to the Yukon I believe was given in a general way in my statement yesterday but, of course, not broken down into regions. We shall be glad to furnish whatever information he requires, as I said before.
We will certainly look into the matter of school attendance and its effect on family allowances. I think possibly the answer would be to have the reports of the school superintendent channelled through the Indian superintendent for investigation but this is a matter we will definitely look into. We will also look into the case of Rosemary Lowe as soon as we receive the letter the hon. gentle-mant promised to write us.
I can tell the hon. member that the Dawson freezer is ordered and should be forthcoming within a reasonable length of time.
The hon. member asked for figures on health and welfare extended to Indians. We do not have this information. This matter comes under the Department of National Health and Welfare. We could secure it for the hon. gentleman but perhaps he would like to ask his question of my colleague when the estimates of his department come up.


Erik Nielsen: Before the hon. lady proceeds I have one question with respect to the land set aside for the use of Indians. I was not concerned with the technical description of what was and was not a reserve. I was concerned about the fact that the Yukon Indian people have never been compensated as have the other Indian people in Canada for the taking over of their lands. I say "their lands" in the sense that they were there first. I was not thinking of a technical description but intended to ask what are the plans for compensating the Yukon Indian people on the same basis as Indian people in the rest of Canada were compensated either by way of land which they can call their own in perpetuity so they can take part in the revenue from resource developments such as was mentioned by the hon. member for Wetaskiwin or, if not land that they can call their own
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration in perpetuity, what arrangement does the branch intend to make for something in lieu of land in perpetuity?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Of course, Mr. Chairman, these are problems that are brought up from time to time. We have no specific plans at the moment. These are matters that are discussed with the territorial authorities from time to time. All Indians are not on reserves for which compensation has been arranged by way of treaty. It is only where there have been treaties fulfilled by the Indians and the federal authorities that any arrangement can be made with reference to the matters my hon. friend has raised. If there is any further information on that we will be glad to procure it for the hon. gentleman but as I say most of these things are matters of discussion from time to time and have not reached the stage yet where we could say that any particular plan is under consideration.


Erik Nielsen: I can say right away to the minister that there are no treaty Indian people in the Yukon territory. I am wondering if the minister could ask her officials to direct their attention to designing a treaty or something that will give the Indian people the rights which have been enjoyed for many years by other Indian people in Canada.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I am afraid, Mr. Chairman, that if there is no treaty there is no basis for the establishment of those rights. I believe I am correct in saying that. If my hon. friend wishes to explore the question further we will be glad to go into a full discussion of the matter with him.
I understood the hon. member to say that there is no old age assistance in the Yukon. It is my understanding that there is.


Erik Nielsen: Not for the Indian people.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I understand there is, yes. There is no supplementary assistance, that is assistance supplementary to the old age security payments, but I am informed that there is old age assistance available to Yukon Indian people. In so far as supplementary payments-payments supplementary to old age security-are concerned, we have made representations to the council and this is a matter that is under discussion at the present time.
I hope my hon. friend will not be too disappointed if I have not answered completely all of the questions he asked but, frankly, they came so fast that even with my officials and I all taking notes we were unable to get them all down. We will make sure that the hon. member receives complete answers to them within a reasonable length of time.
The hon. member for Fort William asked a question with reference to scholarships. In
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Supply-Citizenship and Immigration particular, he asked about nurses. These figures which I shall give are not entirely relevant to scholarships but refer to professional and vocational assistance. In nurses' training, there are 25 young women now receiving assistance for tuition and there are 22 serving as nurses' aides. I gave the figures and the amounts involved yesterday with reference to the scholarships which were earned in the various classifications. The hon. member asked about scholarships with respect to northern Ontario. In the year 1959-60 there were two and in the year 1960-61 there was one. I cannot say for sure whether any of these pupils came from Thunder Bay district, but I do not think so.
The hon. member for Wetaskiwin made several suggestions which we will certainly look into particularly with regard to technical training. When the hon. member referred to welfare workers I presumed that he meant trained social workers. No doubt the hon. member knows this is quite a problem. Even if we made provision in the estimates for social welfare workers right across Canada we could not secure them because there is a great shortage of these workers in Canada. What we are trying to do now is make arrangements with the provincial authorities to co-operate with them and to take advantage of their social workers to work in the various Indian localities.
We think that will probably be more successful than trying to place a worker, let us say, on every reserve, or every group of reserves. I am sure that will work out but it is a long range project and as I said it depends to a large extent on the number of workers that even the provinces can provide because of the shortage in this profession.


James Stanley Speakman: If the minister would not mind my interrupting her at this stage, that is just the point I made. The provincial welfare workers devote themselves rather exclusively to the non-Indians to the detriment of the Indian requirement.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I see. That may be because we had not made a contract with them. We intend to explore this right across the country.
The hon. member asked about the revolving funds. I might tell him that these are available for individual enterprise in practically every field.
The hon. member for Kootenay East raised a question which I must say was new to us. The hon. member referred to the question of the Christmas tree contract at Columbia lake. We will certainly look into it. These contracts are not made without the sanction of the band council and without a proper resolution being passed by the band council.


I have not heard of one being made where the chief's signature was sufficient without some supporting evidence of the desire of the band to participate but we will certainly look into the complaint which the hon. member registered on their behalf and find out precisely what are the circumstances.
The hon. member for Kenora-Rainy River brought up several problems.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, perhaps I could explain that the hon. member was called out of the chamber and he hopes to be back shortly.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: In any event I will make these explanations and the hon. member will have a record of them. With reference to Sioux Lookout there is an appropriation being asked for in the current estimates to provide a new gymnasium for the school there.
The hon. member asked about the utilization of the revolving loan fund. I can tell him that from April 1 to November 30, 1960 there were 97 loans approved of which 65 were for agriculture, 14 for fishing, 5 were miscellaneous, 2 were for timber and 11 for vehicles. The hon. member mentioned a total authorized amount of $500,000, but it is actually $1 million. Although the approved loans have totalled over $500,000-some $547,800- there are at the present time outstanding loans numbering 578 in the amount of $498,790.
I can reassure the hon. member on the matter of the sale of wild rice and the supervision exercised by the department over the concession of picking rice and the assistance given in connection with harvesting. The department arranges for the marketing of the production by tender and makes sure that a fair market price is obtained by the Indians for their crop.
The hon. member also asked me a question with reference to the education of Indian children and those for whom no education is now provided. We find that in January, 1959 the agency returns showed that 1,735 Indian children between the ages of seven and 16 were not provided with education. However, in the following year, 1960, the number had decreased to 1,503. In other words, it had decreased by about 13.4 per cent.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Are those the children who are either on reserves or with the bands, or does that figure include Indian children living in places such as Red Lake?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: That would include children of families which are nomadic and, probably, children in some small communities where no educational facilities are available. It is unfortunate, but the majority of these

children reside in northern Ontario and Quebec. These are the children with whom we are primarily concerned at the present time, because it is a challenge to the department that there should be even this number of children for whom no educational facilities are available. However, at the present time 90 per cent of the children of school age are in schools and the total number, as the hon. member will realize, has diminished rapidly in one year. I hope that when the figures are available for this year we shall find that a similar decrease has taken place.
I was asked to say a word about Indians in senior positions; those who had come up from the reserves and achieved senior positions in the department. Those who are either superintendents or assistant superintendents on the field staff, number 15. There are also 11 in clerical and administrative posts on the field staff. Perhaps I might give the committee the other figures, because they are interesting. I do not remember whether I gave them earlier today or not, but I will repeat them, if I did. In addition, there are 37 caretakers, 11 stenographers and typists and 21 in other categories. And, as I said earlier, there are 123 teachers. This brings the total to 255, the figure I quoted earlier.


William Moore Benidickson: Those are very interesting figures but, of course, they have to be related to something. I was wondering if the minister could indicate whether there has been some advance in this particular respect? Could she, perhaps, indicate what percentage relationship they bear to the total staff in the categories listed? Second, would the hon. lady be able to say how this situation compares to the situation a year ago? If she does not have that information now, perhaps the committee could have it at another time.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: It is a little better than 10 per cent. I am afraid I have no comparison to give for previous years.
I was interested in the hon. member's allusions to the good intentions of the former minister with regard to Fort Frances. I am sure the hon. gentleman's intentions were good, as they always were in this department, but one of the things he neglected to do in 1957 was to make any allowance for the Fort Frances school in the estimates of that year. Consequently it is only this year we are making that allowance. We started with an appropriation of $150,000 with $720,000 planned for next year. We hope we can replace this school, which is certainly not our pride and joy.


William Moore Benidickson: The minister had promised me in the spring of 1957, at the end of 90205-6-138
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration the fiscal year, that the planning would commence immediately in connection with this school, and I am sure the planning did commence, even under the new government. There has been a delay in getting the work under way.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I hardly think that on reflection the hon. member would say there has been too much delay, because he knows from his experience in government that these things sometimes take a good deal of time. One has to allow for plans to be drawn up and approved by the various departments of government which are concerned with building-so much has to be done before the stage is reached at which tenders can be called. Even when tenders have been called we sometimes encounter delays, but we hope to get on with this particular project this year.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Can the minister say
whether the Fort Frances school was part of the billion dollar program announced at the beginning of February, 1958?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: At the beginning of February, 1958 I was not charged with responsibility for this department, so that is knowledge which is beyond my ken.
With reference to Red Lake I should tell the hon. member that we are very concerned about the situation there. Within the course of a very short time-a week or two-I think we shall begin a conference with the Ontario municipal affairs department to see what can be done with respect to this deplorable situation.
Some comment was made by the hon. member with reference to child welfare problems and I should like to say at the outset that we are very grateful for the co-operation we have received from the children's aid society in the matter of the care of Indian children. Partly as a result of one case in the Fort Frances agency which the hon. gentleman has discussed with us, and partly because of a few other cases where circumstances were somewhat similar, the department is now authorized to provide educational and welfare assistance as a humanitarian measure to children of Indian origin in residence on the reserve in addition to other categories described in my announcement to the house on April 8, 1960. Principally, these benefits are extended to women of Indian origin who have lost Indian status through enfranchisement or marriage and who have no alternative but to return to friends or relatives on the reserves for various reasons such as the death of a husband or serious illness in the family.
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Supply-Citizenship and Immigration Before this time there had been no satisfactory means of providing essential welfare and educational help to these women and their children. This government therefore decided on humanitarian grounds that educational and welfare assistance should be granted to these people on reserves in the same manner and to the same extent as if they had retained Indian status. We hope this will solve particularly vexatious problems of which my hon. friend is well aware.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Chairman, I have been sitting here in comfort waiting for the estimates of the national gallery and hoping to cause the minister to be uncomfortable later. However, I want to take this opportunity to make a few remarks that are related to remarks made by the hon. member for Vancouver East and the hon. member for Skeena with respect to that order in council which made it necessary to return land in Indian reserves in British Columbia and any cash that was left in the band or tribe funds. I have suggested on a number of occasions before that this cash should be used to erect a memorial to the Arrow lake band which has now become extinct, the last member dying in 1955. I rose to ask the minister this question. Has the department returned the cash balance in the Arrow lake Indian band fund to the province of British Columbia?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: The answer to that is yes.


Mr. Martel:: Mr. Chairman, I should like to make a few remarks before the first item of these estimates is approved. This question is of great interest to me because there are a number of Indian bands scattered around in the riding of Chapleau which I have the honour to represent in the house. First, I should like to join with other members in thanking the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration for the very kind co-operation I have always had from her department and I should also like to thank the officials of the department.
(Translation):
I should like to go on in French because in my area young Indians who have been attending school for a few years receive their education in French.
In fact, even though those young Indians did not have the opportunity of learning French before entering school, they are nevertheless able to follow the curriculum of the province of Quebec. Most of them spoke only English before coming to school, but they learn French very fast and they get along very well.


I should like now to deal with the young Indians attending the St. Marc de Figuery school located about ten miles south of Amos. These young pupils come from all parts of the area, since it is a boarding school. The Oblate Fathers who operate the school are doing excellent work, not only in this particular place but wherever there are Indians in my riding.
There is also a special problem concerning the Indian families living in Abitibi, as most of them, during the last few years, have chosen to settle in or in the immediate vicinity of the towns of Amos, La Sarre and Senneterre; others intend to do likewise in the future. Already some have moved into Chapais and Chibougamau, near Waswanipi lake, Mistassini lake, and even Mattagami lake, site of the proposed railway line provided by the bill discussed a few days ago.
The migration of Indians toward organized areas is explained by the fact that the trapper and his family can no longer make a decent living out of trapping.
They also know that closer to towns they have a better chance of getting proper hospital and medical attention and that their children are closer to schools.
As for the town of Amos particularly, the 40 families who settled there live in overcrowded and often unsanitary dwellings.
That is why last year, the delegates of the Abitibi Indian band, better known as the Dominion Abitibi band, appeared before the Indian affairs committee and asked the Indian affairs branch to build as an original project at least 30 houses to permanently accommodate an equivalent number of families; the project was to be carried out on the Leclerc farm, bought for that purpose a few years ago and surveyed and subdivided in 1959.
I even believe that in 1960 some preparatory work was carried out by the Indian affairs branch, with regard to the building of those houses.
In my humble opinion, those houses should be supplied with modern sanitary equipment and the cost of sewer and plumbing could be paid from the available funds of the Abitibi reservation.
I hope the minister will be able to tell us, when she takes the floor, how soon this program involving the Abitibi Indian band may be carried out.
(Text):
I was just mentioning in my remarks that there is a project near Amos for the Abitibi Dominion band on a piece of property that

was bought for them a few years ago. It is a housing project and last year before the committee it was requested by the delegates from the Abitibi Dominion band. I wonder whether the hon. lady could tell the house a little later if this housing project for the Abitibi Dominion band will be carried out.
As is the usual procedure, of course, these houses will have to be supplied with modern heating equipment. It was suggested last year before the committee that the cost of the water works and sewage disposal system could be paid out of the band fund. Although this band is not a very rich one, nevertheless its members are willing to co-operate and do their share.
There are various other housing projects that are also urgently needed by other bands in the large territory included in my riding. I will give the names of the bands quickly. I am referring to the Mistassini band, the Waswanipi band, the Eastmain band and the bands at Rupert House Obedjiwan and also Manowan. As far as Obedjiwan and Manowan are concerned, housing projects have already been started there.
Of course, all these different projects throughout Canada cannot be carried out simultaneously. However, considering the amount of money that is made available from year to year I know that a big effort has been made toward accomplishing these different projects in recent years and the department and the minister particularly are to be congratulated. Taking into account the amount of money made available, I think a very good job has been done.
So far as education is concerned, more has been done in recent years than was the case some years ago. I think that education has to come first and that it will certainly help integration with the white communities across Canada.
I was glad to read a statement by the hon. lady the other day that the only solution to the Indian problem across Canada is integration as soon as possible. I really believe that is so. The Indians in my area have only been in touch with the white man for a few years. We have just a few reserves and most of the Indians there have only come in contact with civilization recently. I believe that with education available to their children the possibility will be greater of integrating them with the white population.
I should like to relate something that was said to me by Mr. Kistabish of La Sarre, Quebec, a well known and respected Indian. He said to me: "Your education program for Indians is quite all right but what happens?
90205-6-138i
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration We send our children to the school and when they come back from school they are not educated enough to work for the white man and they are no good as Indians any more because they do not know how to trap. They no longer know how to operate in the bush." These young Indians go to school and graduate about the age of 16. They are not sufficiently educated to be able to compete with the white children of their own age in obtaining employment. On the other hand they are no longer able to follow the pursuits of their Indian fathers in fishing, trapping and so on. They have lost their natural skills during the years they have attended school.
I believe, therefore, that the employment officers who are doing their best to find jobs for these young Indians should take into consideration their lack of education and should try to find employment for them as soon as possible so that they will not become discouraged and return to the reserve.
In so far as income and relief are concerned, I should like to make a few suggestions. Since as I have just explained the Indian does not have sufficient education to compete with the skilled worker, the only kind of employment open to him in my area is often irregular and of a temporary nature. For instance, in the Abitibi district an Indian can find employment as a hunting and fishing guide for 15 to 30 days a year. He might find a job as a helper for a prospector or staking mining claims, depending upon whether there is any mining activity in the area. He can sometimes find a job as a lumberman for three or four months during the wintertime. This illustrates the problem. The older generation, of course, has even more difficulty in finding employment. It is hoped that the younger generation that is being educated now will have a better chance to compete. When these children come out of school we should be careful to make sure they do not become discouraged because, as I have said, they are not sufficiently well educated to compete with the white children.
In so far as the relief system is concerned, it was suggested that the system could be improved. It was suggested also to the committee last year that the amount of relief payments could be increased. This is a rather difficult problem in certain cases, as the minister well knows, because many people who have been away from the reserve for some time come back to live on the reserve when they are unemployed.
Before I resume my seat, I should like to mention a few other points that were presented to the committee last year. I do not
2178	HOUSE OF
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration want to take too much of the time of this committee, but there were a number of briefs presented to the joint committee last year by the Quebec bands. There is a list of the briefs presented by these bands in the minutes and proceedings of the joint committee for Wednesday, May 4, 1960. I should like to make a brief reference to this list. There was a brief presented by the Eastmain band, Eastmain, Quebec. This is on the Quebec side of James bay, but it is in my riding. The brief was dated December 29, 1959. There was another brief presented by the Obedjiwan band, via Oskelaneo river, Abitibi east district. It is dated September, 1959. There was one presented by the Mistassini band, and it is dated August 24, 1959. The next one was presented by the northern citizens guidance association, and that is the one to which I should like to make a special reference. The different briefs that were presented by these bands will receive the careful consideration of the committee and exhibit the interest of the different Indian bands across the country in the committee.
I should like to read one section of the brief that was presented by the northern citizens guidance association, a group that is working for the improvement of the lot of the Indian in northern Quebec. This brief reads, in part, as follows:
Another matter of importance raised was the question of hostels for Indian children. The N.C.G.A. is in favour of the La Tuque plan provided it offers in the end permanent type employment to the future Indian labour force. Experience has taught us that seasonal employment is not the answer, nor ever will be. There are far too many negative sociological aspects involved. We understand that the La Tuque plan, commendable as it is, will not by any stretch of the imagination take care of the total number of available children. Our organization has therefore put on record a request that hostels be built in towns like Chibou-gamau. Chapais, Schefferville and eventually Matta-gami. In such places, Indian children could receive primary education within their own environment, and eventually as the development of these towns proceeds, training in high schools and technical schools. Their training would qualify them for permanent employment in the mining industry, commercial and other fields.
Once again, it is emphasized that these offers of co-operation are coming from the industrial, educational and social leaders of northern Queoec mining communities. Will the opportunity be grasped by our federal government or will it be lost? Canadian citizens have been asked to develop a new consciousness towards their Indian brethren. We believe that we have done that here. We are willing to go all the way. But the next move is yours.
We would hope that the joint committee of the Dommons and senate would study these proposals humbly submitted, and that out of its discussions an enlightened and rewarding policy will be adopted.
This brief was signed by Doris H. Scanlon, Mrs. James P. Scanlon, secretary treasurer.


I only mention this brief because I should like to know from the minister whether the project at La Tuque has been completed. We heard in the committee last year that it was going ahead, and since some of the Indians in my territory would be going to that school, I should like to get the situation clarified.
I should like also to make one suggestion before I conclude. Last year the committee received a great deal of evidence from the different Indian bands across the country. Before the committee resumed its work this year an index and a classification of all the material was supposed to be prepared. I understand that the classification and indexing of this material has been carried out by the departmental officials. I do not want to cast any doubt on their capacity or to indicate that they would be prejudiced in any way, but I feel the job could be done by independent persons or an independent group. Perhaps we could get suggestions from this group as well, and then the committee could proceed at a little faster pace. I was a member of the committee myself last year and it would be an impossible task for each member to go through all the evidence that was brought before the committee. If we had an independent group look through the material and prepare a resume I feel this would be of help not only to the department but also to the Indians and to the members of the committee. I shall now conclude my remarks because we will have other opportunities to discuss these different matters in detail, when the joint committee starts its work.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: May I just tell the hon. member for Chapleau that in so far as committee work is concerned, this matter is in the hands of the committee. As a matter of fact, it was the committee which asked the department to undertake this work. If the committee wishes someone other than the department to undertake it, they will have to make other arrangements.


Jean-Jacques Martel: I will make suggestions to the committee.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: With regard to the school, may I say that it is in the planning stage now. I cannot give my hon. friend a definite answer as to when this project will be proceeded with but we are planning at the moment to have something in next year's estimates.


Mr. McQuillan:: I listened with a great deal of gratification last night to the minister's opening remarks and I was pleased with the emphasis placed on the educational program.

I think this branch is on the right track and that it should allow nothing to deviate it from that emphasis.
I was also interested in the remarks made about the vocational training program and the work of the placement officers. On several occasions I have made representations to the minister and her officials stressing the field in which placement officers could work on the coast of British Columbia and what they might accomplish in the way of placing more of the Indians in industry, particularly the logging industry. I myself have had a great deal of experience in hiring them and I have found them to be as satisfactory as is any other type of labour that has been available to us.
I believe that, through the acceptance of responsibility on the part of the Indians and on the part of some of the provincial governments, we are at long last reaching a point that we might call a break-through in connection with this problem of Indian affairs. It must be rather ironic sometimes for members of the staff of the Indian affairs branch to realize that the better the job they do, the sooner they are going to put themselves out of a job. I look forward to the day when the Indian affairs branch will be primarily concerned with over-all arrangements between the federal government and the provinces until such time as the Indians become completely integrated.
I was interested in listening to the remarks of the hon. member for Skeena and the hon. member for Vancouver East in which they brought to the attention of the committee two cases in which they appeared to think there had been an injustice. I should like to take a few minutes in which to explain to the committee the situation that exists in British Columbia and which I do not think many hon. members fully appreciate.
We have something like the 1,620 reservations in British Columbia out of a total 2,200 in the whole of Canada. Most of these reservations are in the coastal area. Almost invariably they are at the mouths of valleys through which is to be found the only route of access to the hinterland. They in a sense completely block access to many industrial sites and to a great deal of our timber and mineral resources. So far there has not been too much difficulty about making arrangements for rights of way and in some cases, for leases for industrial purposes, and perhaps in a few cases for purchase of some of these lands which are in many cases not occupied. I do not know how many of the reservations on the coast are occupied but I know that the percentage must be small.
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration
The hon. member for Skeena took a kind of roundhouse sling at the minister of highways in British Columbia. Of course that is a popular thing to do these days. I do it myself once in a while. However, the fact remains that this is a much greater problem in British Columbia than it is perhaps in any other province of Canada. I refer to the question of rights of way or what some people might refer to as trespass on Indian reserves. It is also quite often a problem in the development of timber and the establishment of pulp and paper mills and where the Indians have land that is in an area suitable for the establishment of such industry they have to be negotiated with. Sometimes it takes a long time to arrive at a satisfactory conclusion and get these industries under way. I sometimes think that perhaps there should be a slightly different policy with regard to dealing with Indian lands in British Columbia as compared with the rest of Canada. It should not be a policy of prejudice or a discriminatory policy but it should be a policy in keeping with a particular situation that exists there. I should think this matter could be given a good deal of thought on the part of the officials of the Indian affairs department and the minister.
In the report of the Indian affairs department I notice that it is stated that there are some 209 bands and 1,623 reservations in British Columbia. Those figures indicate the situation about which I have been speaking. I do not for one minute advocate that the Indians or the rights of the Indians should not be given the maximum consideration. However, I feel that perhaps some agency might be set up that would lead to easier negotiations or perhaps I should say quicker negotiations. Let us not say "easier negotiations" lest some people might interpret those words to mean cheaper rights of way on the part of those that seek them. I hope some consideration will be given to this problem.


Frank Howard: I listened with interest to the hon. member for Comox-Alberni speak with respect to the land question. Before I deal with that matter, however, I wonder if 1 may at this stage, initially leave with the minister a question to be answered at her convenience. It relates to the question raised by the hon. member for Wetaskiwin with regard to the liquor situation. Can the minister indicate what is the present state of the resolution passed by certain independent band councils or Indian bands in British Columbia with respect to bringing section 96 (a) (ii) of the Indian Act into force in so far as these reserves are concerned. I posed a query to the minister some time ago on this matter and it was answered by way of a return. However, since that time I understand that subsequent developments have
2180	HOUSE OF
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration taken place and it would be interesting to know just what is the current state of affairs.
Before the one o'clock adjournment there was a considerable amount of discussion concerning the land question and extensive references were made to the McKenna-McBride agreement in 1912 and the royal commission which met for some three, four, or five years following 1912 and orders in council passed by both the federal government and the provincial government and the statutory endorsation of the action that was taken with respect to the land.
In so far as British Columbian Indians are concerned, I think this is perhaps the basic objection that exists and around which all these other things rotate, such as the McKenna-McBride agreement, the reversionary rights of the province, and so on. That is the state of affairs which exists, apart from an area in the Peace river district and a similar area on Vancouver island. I am not too clear on this, but I think those are the only two places where treaties as such exist, one with the crown-treaty No. 8, I believe-and another one with the Hudson's Bay Company dealing with the purchase of land in the early days.
Apart from these two there are no treaties in British Columbia which apply to the Indians in British Columbia, as we know treaties as they have been assigned to apply to Indians in other parts of the nation. The claim of the Indians of British Columbia, apart from these two treaties, is that their title and right to the land has never been extinguished. They claim that the McKenna-McBride agreement of 1912 was an invalid agreement because the provincial government and the federal government of that day were dealing with lands which were not the property of either government but were the property of the Indians, because their original title, ownership and occupation of the land had not been extinguished by war, sale, surrender, treaty or any other means except the encroachment of non-Indian people. This is the key point from which all these other objections flow.
As I understand it, the Indians of British Columbia have never accepted or recognized the McKenna-McBride agreement or the decisions which followed as a consequence of that agreement. Even the arrangement in 1926 to pay $100,000 in lieu of treaty money, as it were, while the money is used in British Columbia the Indian organizations that I know claim they have never given any official recognition to this $100,000 and have not accepted it as being in lieu of, payment for, or acceptable for the extinguishment of their title to this land. I think this is the key point
IMr. Howard.]

which must be cleared up in so far as the native Indian people of that province are concerned.
There are a number of suggestions as to how this can be done. One is by a court decision such as was attempted in 1914, I understand, or offered by the federal government, with some strings attached, of course, that were objected to by the native Indian people.
Another alternative-and I think perhaps this is the way in which it should be approached initially-is an offer to negotiate, whether by the federal government, the provincial government or both in concert, a treaty with the Indians of British Columbia for the extinguishment of their title to this land.
I have here a copy of an order in council which the Prime Minister filed with the house on December 7, 1960. It is order in council P.C. 1959-799, approved on June 25, 1959. It establishes a committee of inquiry, as it were, consisting of Mr. Nelson, barrister of Prince Albert; Mr. Valentine of the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources; Mr. L. L. Brown of the Indian affairs branch; and Mr. James Koe of the Fort McPherson band; and Mr. Baptiste Cazon of the Fort Simpson band. The func-itons of this commission are set out in the order in council. This has reference to the question raised earlier by the hon. member for Yukon. I will read briefly from the order in council:
(a) Whether the future economic and social welfare of the Indians-
This refers to the Indians of the Mackenzie district, incidentally:
-would be well served by the setting apart of reserves for them in the proportions provided for by the treaties or whether it would be in their future interests to renegotiate the treaties on some different basis:
I say that the cabinet and the privy council, by giving these terms of reference to this particular	commission-namely
whether it would be in the future interests of the Indians to renegotiate the treaties on some different basis-have indicated a policy of the government to renegotiate a treaty that is in existence. I think it would naturally be expected that an analogous policy of negotiating treaties which had been exchanged would be quite in keeping with the policy of the government in this respect regarding the situation in the Mackenzie district.
I think the government should undertake the immediate establishment of a pretty far-sweeping judicial inquiry into the land question and should take steps to negotiate treaties,

surrenders or extinguishments of the Indians' aboriginal title and occupation of land on whatever basis is mutually acceptable. Failing a mutually acceptable agreement rising out of such negotiations the subject matter of sale might very well then be referred to a court.
A somewhat similar situation prevailed in Alaska. The Tlingit and Haida bands were given special authority by the United States congress to proceed to the United States court of claims on this self-same question of the extinguishment of their title. Their claim was approved by the United States court of claims, which held that the Tlingits and Haidas in Alaska had never extinguished their title to land. This is the same situation as prevails in British Columbia and I think this must be dealt with first, foremost and quickly before many of these other problems can be straightened out. Mr. Chairman, I wonder if I may call it five o'clock.


Mr, Churchill:: Mr. Chairman, before you rise and report progress, I wonder whether the committee would consider going on for another hour. We are close to finishing the estimates of the Indian affairs branch. The other items that come under the jurisdiction of the minister might stand over until later in the session. Perhaps we could take the private members' bills that would be coming up today at some later date.
We are so close to finishing that I wonder whether this might be done. On the other hand, there are at least three members who would like to say something now. Perhaps in the next 60 minutes we could complete the estimates of the Indian affairs branch.


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Chairman, in so far as we are concerned, we would be quite happy to assist the house leader and the hon. lady in getting on with this estimate and thus avoid perhaps starting again on another day. We would be quite happy to co-operate with the government in this respect.


Frank Howard: Mr. Chairman, perhaps I may comment on this. It is our desire, of course, to co-operate with the government and the house leader on anything that will generally be of benefit all the way round, but in this particular instance unfortunately some of us have made arrangement contingent upon the hour of five to six. I do not think it would be possible to agree to the course suggested by the house leader at this moment.
Perhaps if the request had been made at some earlier time-it was unforeseen, of course; I realize that-we might have been able to make other arrangements. But at the moment I am afraid it is rather difficult.


The Acting Chairman (Mr. Chown):: It
would be necessary for me, as chairman, to
Private Bills
report to the Speaker of the house in any case before unanimous consent is obtained. It being five o'clock, shall I rise, report progress and request leave to sit again later this day, or at the next sitting of the house, as the case may be?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
Progress reported.



PRIVATE BILLS

Mr. Speaker:: It being five o'clock the house will now proceed to the consideration of private and public bills, the latter having precedence. Today being Friday, public bills have precedence according to the temporary order.



FLAGS OF CANADA


Mr. Samuel Boulanger (Drummond-Arlha-baska) moved: the second reading of Bill No. C-17, respecting flags of Canada.
(Translation) :
Mr. Speaker, this is the third time that I have had the privilege of introducing a bill entitled "An act respecting flags of Canada" aimed at giving this country a distinctive national flag.
I tried with all the sincerity I could muster and in objective terms, to convince hon. members of the necessity for Canada to have its own emblem.
I do not believe there is any need of reiterating arguments which have been brought forward on many occasions.
Some inquiry reports have been produced which prove without a doubt that the majority of the Canadian people are in favour of the project.
A recent survey held by the junior chamber of commerce of Canada, following which a brief was submitted to the government last March, revealed that 81 per cent of the 17,000 people questioned in every province of this country wanted a distinctive national flag.
The bill I am introducing today provides one way of carrying out this project; it asks the governor in council to prepare during this session, an appropriate design of a distinctive national flag for Canada which would later be approved by a joint resolution of both chambers before royal assent was given.
Mr. Speaker, if my bill has not gone beyond the stage of second reading, even after

Private Bills
several attempts, I am satisfied to have submitted it to the house, a fact which has brought me a flood of approval from all parts of Canada. We should rejoice to see unanimity being reached on the principle of a distinctive national flag, but Canadians are very surprised to note that nothing has been achieved in spite of it.
The situation seems, indeed, very odd, and one could wonder why the matter is not settled by a final vote or why the government, through the voice of its Prime Minister, Mr. Diefenbaker, does not reveal its position on a matter which is of the highest interest for the Canadian people.
The unity mentioned a few years ago by the Right Hon. Louis St. Laurent now seems to be attained, as shown by the polls organized by the chamber of commerce, the Gallup institute, students associations and many others.
Mr. Speaker, I want to conclude my remarks by saying that the refusal to have this bill read a second time might be interpreted as if this were a bill prejudicial to the interests of the Conservative party, because it is introduced by a member of the opposition.
Hon. members of the Conservative party may be at rest. When one of them submits a bill aiming at giving Canada a distinctive national flag, I shall hasten to withdraw my own bill and to support that of my fellow member.
I want some hon. members-who have already misinterpreted my intentions when I submitted a similar bill last year-to know that I do not submit this bill in order to rouse the attention of the newspapers, nor to entice my colleagues into making compromising statements. My only aim is to call the attention of those who have the responsibility of giving us that symbol of independence which is the sign of a country having attained its maturity.
There has never been any doubt in my mind as to the aim that was to be reached.
Let those who doubt this take up the challenge and bring in a similar bill. I shall be happy to support them and give them the credit for it.


Mr. L. J. Pigeon (Jolielie-L'Assompiion-Montcalm):: Mr. Speaker, as everyone knows, I placed on the order paper, at the beginning of the session, the following resolution:
That, in the opinion of this house, consideration should be given to the advisability of appointing a committee comprising members of this house and of the Senate to look into the ways of giving Canada a distinctive flag and an official national anthem and to hear in this connection the views of Canadian organizations, public bodies and private citizens.
(Mr. Boulanger.]
It seems to me, Mr. Speaker, that for the sake of national unity, the government should follow up the resolution I placed on the order paper at the beginning of the session and that a committee of both houses should be set up as soon as possible to hear the views of the various Canadian organizations, so that we may obtain a distinctive Canadian flag.
I know that all members of the house support the idea of a national flag for Canada.
Some favour a certain design, and some another.
If the committee I am suggesting were established, I would have a suggestion to make to the hon. members. I have before me a flag which, in my opinion, truly represents the aspirations of all Canadians. You can see it has blue corners representing-


Some hon. Members:: Order.
(Text):


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member, I think, should be reminded of two matters, one that we are debating this Bill C-17, not his resolution and, secondly, that it is not customary to introduce other than words into the house. I did not object to reference to the other motion, but the matter for debate is Bill No. C-17 which has been introduced by the hon. member for Drummond-Arthabaska (Mr. Boulanger).
(Translation):


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Speaker, I simply wished to submit to the house a design for a distinctive flag, which could be submitted, and adopted, if found acceptable. This is a purely personal suggestion. But in any case, if a joint committee of both houses is set up, I shall have the opportunity, in due course, to submit that design.
Mr. Speaker, I simply wished to make these few remarks so as to make it clear that I am not opposed to the bill introduced by the hon. member for Drummond-Arthabaska (Mr. Boulanger) but that, if the matter is put to a vote, I would not like to see a flag adopted which would not be truly distinctive.
In the interest of national unity, we must adopt a genuinely distinctive flag. That is why I would prefer that a joint committee of both houses be set up as soon as possible, to consider the matter so as to enable the house to come to a decision in keeping with the principle of national unity.
(Text):


Mr. J. H. Horner (Acadia):: Mr. Speaker, this question has come up before and has been discussed for some time in this house. I think I spoke on a truly distinctive flag once before. As I mentioned previously, perhaps a committee should be set up to study this

question. It need not be a committee identical with that which was set up in 1945 and 1946, but a study should be made of whether the flags we have in Canada are satisfactory. If they are not then we should set about to change them and bring in something which would be suitable to the Canadian people.
The question has been asked whether it should be in the census. We all realize that it has cost a great deal already to reprint the census forms. Therefore, I do not think it would be feasible or wise to spend a great deal of money to reprint census forms to include a question concerning a distinctive flag, but something along that line should be undertaken. A questionnaire should be sent out, or the people should be canvassed on whether they want another flag. I think that question would be in order before any definite steps are taken to change the flag we now have, or the two flags which are flown in Canada.
While there is a great deal of concern over this question in Canada-maybe more so in some parts of Canada than in others- yet, it seems to me, after listening to both sides of the question, that it is a controversial one and before any action is taken on it perhaps a little further study ought to be made and a questionnaire sent out in the form of a minor census in an endeavour to find out whether the people actually want a new flag or whether a change is desirable. If it should turn out that a change is desirable, then somebody should design a flag which would be suitable to all Canadians.


Mr. Terry Nugent (Edmonton-Slrathcona):: Mr. Speaker, like other hon. members, I suppose, I have been besieged with letters, suggestions and talks on the question of a national flag for Canada. My desk and the file in my cabinet are full of many suggestions along this line.
First, I must say that I am a little surprised myself to find the extent of the interest in and the depth of the feeling about the subject. I was born and brought up in this country and I think I have taken my proper amount of interest in the affairs of this country. I have served in the armed forces and I think I am as patriotic as are most Canadians. As I say, I am a little surprised at the depth of feeling, because frankly the question of the sort of national flag we should have, whether it is distinctly Canadian or not, really has never bothered me very much. Therefore it was with a little bit of surprise at first that I found so many citizens dedicating so much of their time-they must have-to designing flags, organizing groups and pressing and working so hard that this country might have a
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national emblem of its own, and to learn of the variety of ideas that have been presented to us from day to day for this purpose.
I note that the bill before us does not deal with a specific flag already used in Canada or press for one of the specific designs that several groups in this country have already prepared. However, I think I would prefer to see a bill introduced by a private member calling for a specific nationally designed flag. The bill says that the governor in council shall prepare one. I suggest to hon. members that since there have not been any steps taken to use anything but the union jack or the red ensign in all the years since confederation it might justly be felt that the government has been quite satisfied to have one flag or both of these flags and that the government's policy, no matter what was the form of the government at the time, is reflected by this same acceptance of those flags as the Canadian flags.
I think the spirit motivating most people who ask for government action, or who press for their own ideas or designs of flags, is that they are not satisfied that this country has an emblem that they can point to and say, "This is ours; this reflects Canada". I think the variety of the designs presented to us for consideration strengthens my own belief; my own feelings about it are somewhat encouraged by the fact that those same designs are so varied. There are so many ideas expressed that one encounters great difficulty when one tries to find some flag which will reflect this distinctly Canadian nationalism of ours.
First of all, I think I should say that I am not one who is really concerned about increasing the amount of Canadian nationalism in this country, along certain lines at least. We live in an age in which life is getting more and more complicated, where everything that is done in one country is reflected so quickly in another, and where for various reasons we must be more and more careful of what we do so as not to annoy our neighbours, and where for various humanitarian reasons we must more and more often extend a helping hand to our neighbours.
In this house we are, I am sure, almost completely dedicated to the support of the United Nations. The fact that such a body of necessity has to take care of some of our problems to that extent at least reduces the need for Canadians to be ultra nationalistic. As I say, this motivating spirit in the country seems to move us away from nationalism in some respects, while the growing development, the growing population and the growing importance of our country seem to foster that spirit.
However, Canada's position in international affairs is only one aspect of the problem of

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how nationalistic we want to be. We still have coming into this country every day a great many immigrants, and every year we are in the process of trying to provide jobs for them and trying to educate the children of new immigrants. We are not predominantly of any one racial origin and it is hard to find in this country what I would call a typical Canadian citizen.
To illustrate this, I think I might try to show the difference between Canadians and residents of the United States. I do not want in my remarks to be taken as being antiAmerican when I say that the Americans are rather flamboyant; that they are flag wavers; that they are very nationalistic. That is not necessarily saying these are not good qualities, but certainly our American neighbours to the south are distinguishable from Canadians by this feeling of nationalism which they acquire very quickly.
I think it takes an immigrant going into the United States only a very short while before he starts to think and act as an American. He feels it is the only way he can behave. In that society, if one is not the nationalistic flag waving type I feel the chances of being accepted as an ordinary member of the community are, perhaps, very slight. I suggest that a flag is one of those things he can point to with pride and say: this is mine. It is part of the American spirit to be a flag waver, and I am one of the first to admit that there is no such feeling in Canada.
We do not have a flag to which people can point in the same way as the Americans do. We do not hear them making so much reference to a national flag. However, I suggest this should in no way be taken as criticism of ourselves, just as I suggested a few moments ago that my remarks about Americans were in no way a criticism of that country. Speaking to a group of new immigrants the other day and searching about for an example of a typical Canadian I found that, thinking on my feet and giving the matter just a little thought and trying to describe it I was totally unable to come up with a description of the way in which a Canadian should act with regard to his feelings about a flag; how quickly he should be absorbed; how quickly he should set aside some of the patterns of life he had brought from the old country; or how much flag waving and nationalism he would need to show in order to be a typical Canadian citizen.
This is of importance, I think, when we consider the problem of whether we should now have a distinctive Canadian flag. The United States flag is a distinctive emblem, and I am suggesting that citizens of that

country take on somewhat flamboyant American characteristics much faster than we do in this country and to a greater extent. I suggest that if we have one distinguishing characteristic in Canada it is simply that not too many of us worry too much about taking on a distinctive national character. Really, what marks a Canadian as a good Canadian citizen is the fact that he does not worry about being a conformist; that he does not worry about creating the impression that he is similar to everyone else. I think the average Canadian citizen prides himself upon being a little different and on not worrying too much about whether he is conforming to a national pattern, no matter how exemplary that national pattern might be.
Therefore, I am one of those who believes that this is the spirit we should continue to foster in this country, the spirit that the typical Canadian is the one who likes the greatest freedom to act as he wishes as long as he is not bothering his neighbours, and who wants to give his neighbours the right to act in the same way, without requiring him to conform to a pattern. It is going to be very hard to typify this type of person. I suggest we have a much more independent, a much more individualistic type of person in this country and, accordingly, we are going to have much more trouble getting a flag to suit people of this type.
We are certainly not going to get unanimity on it, and I think that government measures intended to pick out a flag to suit everyone and change the customs which have developed over the years will be extremely hard to determine. I think we would have difficulty in determining what design we should use or what scheme should be adopted to bring it into being. On the other hand, I feel that this bill suggesting that the governor in council should bring it out is putting a heavy load on any authority. While we all, as members of parliament, must take sides on specific issues as they come up; while we must be prepared to lambast the government if we think it has failed to carry out its duties from time to time; and while we must be prepared to give leadership to the people of this country on controversial issues, it is hard to expect the small group of men who represent the government of this country to be able to come up with an idea for a flag which is going to meet with general approval throughout the country and which is going to carry out the objectives of those various groups which are so concerned about the flag they have in mind. In other words, most of those people who are most desirous of having a distinctive national flag have a particular idea of the kind of flag they want.

Therefore, I think if they can come up with a flag which is going to gain general recognition and support across the country, a bill supporting that particular flag, with a scheme by which it can be determined if it is generally acceptable throughout the country, should be brought forward. If it could be shown that there is a substantial feeling throughout the country in favour of such a flag, then it would be time for the government to step in and act.
I am not sure whether I would be in order if I were to comment on some of the particular designs that I have seen and on some of the reasoning behind the wish to depart from the use of the union jack and the red ensign. Earlier in my remarks I pointed out that while Canada is growing up and becoming in some ways more nationalistic, more important, a bigger and richer country having a wider influence in world affairs, at the same time we have greater responsibilities to the United Nations and must beware of voicing too great a feeling of nationalism at the present time.
We are, of course, tied to the British commonwealth. While it is true that perhaps not all the citizens of this country have direct family ties with the United Kingdom, no one can forget for a minute that the development of this parliamentary system that we enjoy today is an offspring of the British one or that our heritage in the administration of law is a direct descendant of the British system. In fact, British cases are still used in our courts as precedents. I would think that we would blind ourselves a little to say that we want to get a flag which will not identify us with these things that, fortunately or unfortunately, we must readily identify ourselves with as a country.
With these few remarks, Mr. Speaker, I will conclude because to deal adequately with all the various aspects of the type and design of flag, and what should be represented and should not be represented on it, would make a speech a little longer than I think even my patient friends in the house would care to listen to at this time.


Hon. Gordon Churchill (Minister of Veterans Affairs):: I am rising at this time, Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. I grant that it is a little late in the debate to raise it, but I was under the misguided assumption that perhaps Your Honour would have raised the question as you did on January 23. As I was absent unavoidably from the house then I have had to look up what was said in the debate on that occasion before interrupting this debate to get your opinion on the point of order.
The point of order is simply this: Are we not establishing now a precedent that any
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number of bills dealing with the same subject may be before the house and debated in the same session? We had before us early in the session Bill No. C-8, an act to authorize a Canadian flag. This measure was debated and there is an item on the order paper, No. 32, for the resumption of that debate. We are dealing now with Bill No. C-17, an act respecting the flags of Canada, which is intended to be an act to authorize a Canadian flag. It is, therefore, really dealing with the same subject matter. I notice that Beau-chesne's fourth edition, page 167, paragraph 200, subsection 2, says this:
Not more than one question should be before the house at the same time. "When a motion hath been made, that matter must receive a determination by a question, or be laid aside by the general sense of the house before another be entertained."
This is a restatement of an old rule of June 28, 1604. It indicates the possibility of the withdrawal of a motion by leave of the house. In so far as Bill No. C-8 is concerned, which was before us earlier, it has not been withdrawn or determined by a question. It has not been laid aside by the general sense of the house. It is still before us and could be considered at any time. Then, subsection 3 of the same general paragraph says:
A motion dealing with the same subject matter as a bill standing on the order paper for second reading cannot be considered.
I believe that was the problem that was before Your Honour on January 23 when you were considering whether a motion might be debated, although there were two bills dealing with the same subject matter on the order paper. In looking up Hansard, page 1307, January 23, 1961, I find that you did not make a ruling that you expected would remain as a precedent because your words are as follows:
If the house will then permit me to accept this motion, with the very definite reservation that it will not be too weighty a precedent, I shall be glad to call on the hon. member for St. Boniface.
You were dealing then with the question of a resolution rather than a bill. Earlier, I find that when you were drawing the attention of the house to the fact that there was a technical difficulty because there were two public bills standing on the order paper, these are the words which you used as recorded on page 1306:
-a technical difficulty which results from the fact that there are two public bills standing on the order paper both dealing with the question of a distinctive national flag, which is also the subject matter of this motion.
Then this paragraph is essential to the discussion, Mr. Speaker, as you went on to say:
The problem of conflict between two items on the order paper dealing with the same matter has

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arisen before in the house. Hon. members will recall that there were two bills dealing with the printing of negotiable securities in French, and that debate on one of them was refused pending the disposition of the other on the grounds that the house will not enter into a discussion of identical subjects under two categories.
Farther on you mention the fact that both bills were concerned with a method of selecting a flag. I raise the point of order, Mr. Speaker, so that we may be sure of the conduct of our business here, and I think a ruling will be required in this instance. Whereas in the last session it was definitely determined that the two bills dealing with the printing of negotiable securities should not be considered in the same session without a determination on one, here we have a similar situation with two bills dealing with the authorization of a Canadian flag. The debate on one was started and not concluded. The house has not expressed its opinion on that subject. The second bill was introduced today and, although phrased in different language, actually deals with the same subject matter since it asks the house to express its opinion on the question of authorizing us to select a Canadian flag. For the second time this session, therefore, the debate will be on the same subject matter and it may or may not be resolved today, if you should decide that the debate should continue. If it is resolved today, what then happens to the earlier bill? If it is not resolved, on a subsequent occasion we will have two bills on the order paper, as we have now, dealing with the same subject matter.
It is in order that we shall not, by inattention or by inadvertence, establish a precedent which we might find unsatisfactory in the future that I draw to Your Honour's attention this situation.


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, in my opinion, the point which has been raised by the house leader is not well taken. The rule which has been read as citation 200, page 167 of Beauchesne's fourth edition, suggests that not more than one question should be before the house at the same time. I think what Your Honour would want guidance upon, if Your Honour wants guidance on this matter, would be what is meant by one question. My contention is that the questions that have been before the house earlier are not the same as the question that is now before the house.
I should like to explain what I mean by that. The first matter that came before the house was Bill No. C-8, an act to authorize a Canadian flag. That bill was brought to the attention of the house by the hon. member for Lincoln (Mr. Smith). All we need to do is to read clause 1 of that bill in order to come to the conclusion immediately that it

deals with an entirely different subject matter from that which is now before the house. Not only is the phraseology of clause 1 entirely different but the subject matter is entirely different, although the title is "Flags of Canada".
The second matter that came before the house was by way of a resolution introduced by the hon. member for St. Boniface (Mr. Regnier). He suggested a plebiscite on two alternatives, something which I respectfully submit is not the same question as that which is now before us.
Then at a later date we had discussion of Bill No. C-60, an act to amend the Statistics Act, to provide that a matter of this kind be considered as a question in the forthcoming census.
This matter now brought forward by the hon. member for Drummond-Artha-baska (Mr. Boulanger), although entitled "An Act respecting flags of Canada", provides that the design is one which should be selected by the governor in council. When one comes to the actual meaning of the rule he finds, as I understand it, that the word "question" as it applies to these three bills and one resolution is directed toward entirely different matters.
A moment ago the house leader said that this was the the second time the matter had come up for consideration this session. It is the third time. I am sure that the house leader forgot-or that the matter was not brought to his attention-the bill discussed by the hon. member for Lincoln. Then there was the resolution of the hon. member for St. Boniface (Mr. Regnier). There was the discussion of the hon. member for St. Jean-Iberville-Napier-ville. Then there is this one.
The point that I am trying to make is that when Your Honour asked for guidance on the resolution because of the points raised by the house leader I think Your Honour was then satisfied that this was a matter which should be allowed to be pursued. It strikes me that if objection was going to be taken against this procedure it should have been taken long ago. If the point made by the house leader is a sound one, then the objection should have been taken on the second bill or the second resolution that came up for discussion, and that was many weeks ago. Objection was not taken then. There was a third one and no objection was taken. Now there is this one on which discussion is allowed to go on for 30 minutes or more and then objection is taken. It seems to me, Mr. Speaker, that the question under discussion is entirely different from those questions that were under discussion in the earlier bills and resolutions.


Hon. W. J. Browne (Solicitor General):: should like to say a few words in support of what the house leader has said. To deal first of all with the citation he gave at page 168 of Beauchesne, it states as follows:
(3) A motion dealing with the same subject matter as a bill standing on the order paper for second reading cannot be considered.
Incidentally, in reply to the last observation made by the hon. member for Laurier (Mr. Chevrier), to the effect that this discussion has been going on for half an hour, may I say that it takes a little bit of time to prepare an argument and to get the necessary documents. I have sent for this one, at any rate.


Lionel Chevrier: Then you are killing time.


Mr. Browne (Si. John's West):: This
is an important point because a distinguished gentleman at the time, namely Mr. Mackenzie King, the then hon. member for York, moved on May 31, 1923, as reported in Journals LX, page 420:
That the house do now proceed to notice of motion No. 9 respecting the Oleomargarine Act.
A point of order was raised by Mr. Sutherland, member for South Oxford: that the said notice of motion anticipated a matter already appointed for the consideration of the house, in the form of a bill standing in the name of the Minister of Agriculture and was therefore out of order.
Mr. Speaker ruled the point of order well taken.
In that instance there had been no discussion at all. The point of order was well taken and formed the basis for this third paragraph in paragraph 200 of Beauchesne. But in addition to the citation on that page, we find citation 373, the second paragraph of which reads as follows:
(2) There is no rule which restrains the presentation of two or more bills relating to the same subject, and containing similar provisions.
In other words, there is no rule which prevents the presentation of two or more bills relating to the same subject. He then goes on to qualify that statement by saying this:
But if a decision of the house has already been :aken on one such bill, for example, if the bill las been given or refused a second reading, the ither is not proceeded with if it contains substan-:ially the same provisions, and such a bill could not rave been introduced on a motion for leave. But f a bill is withdrawn after having made progress, mother bill with the same objects may be jrocecded with.
That citation explains what is meant by two oills being presented relating to the same subject or containing the same provisions.
The hon. member for Laurier tried to dis-iinguish between the bill introduced by the ion. member for Lincoln and the one in-;roduced by the hon. member for Drummond-fVrthabaska. The first one, namely Bill No. >8, is entitled "An act to authorize a Canadian flag". The next one is entitled "An act
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respecting flags of Canada". Can anyone reasonably contend that both these hon. gentlemen did not have the same purpose in mind? They may have gone about it in a slightly different way. One would not expect the details to be the same. But explanatory notes relating to the bill of the hon. member for Lincoln contained this sentence:
The purpose of this bill is to provide a Canadian
flag.
Then he explained how that should be done. Then the hon. member for Drummond-Artha-baska (Mr. Boulanger) in the explanatory note to his bill states as follows:
As it is desirable and urgent that Canada possess a distinctive national flag, this bill provides a method of obtaining a flag with the least possible delay.
Both of these bills instruct the governor in council how they should proceed about obtaining a suitable distinctive national flag immediately. I do not think that it can be reasonably contended, as the hon. member for Laurier wished to do, that these bills are dealing with different subjects. The ordinary person would certainly understand that each of these bills dealt with the same subject. It is a subject that is near and dear to the hearts of a great many people in this country. In fact, I think the hon. member will agree that this is a matter that arouses great emotion in some sections.


Lionel Chevrier: May I ask the hon. member a question?


John Ferguson Browne: Yes.


Lionel Chevrier: Why did he not raise this point of order when the second bill came up for consideration many weeks ago?


Mr. Speaker:: Has the hon. member concluded?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Yes.


John Ferguson Browne: I should like to answer that question. The point was not drawn to my attention previously.


Mr. Marlin (Essex Easi):: Question.


Mr. Speaker:: I think the point of order could be disposed of on the basis that it was raised somewhat late in the course of the debate.
These two bills which are said to be in conflict have been on the order paper for some time. As it is a matter of some consequence that arises from time to time I was happy to receive assistance and observations from hon. members. The simplest case of this type was that of the bills relating to negotiable instruments. Those bills were in fact identical, and I came to the conclusion that debate should not be permitted to proceed on those bills concurrently.

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There the bill which was reached first took priority; the other appeared on the order paper and when it was called I myself raised the point of order which prevented debate until the identical bill had been disposed of.
In another case of this type, in resolving a conflict between a government bill to amend the Unemployment Insurance Act, if I remember rightly, and a private member's bill relating to the Unemployment Insurance Act, but not identical, I took the view, after we had some discussion-as we have had today-that the two bills were not identical. That being so, it was open to the government to proceed with its measure and to debate the second reading, as was open to the private member with his measure, until the house had taken a decision on one or other of the bills, which would prevent the second measure from coming up because the house had decided the principle involved.
We have two bills here. I think it depends on the way one assesses the principles of these bills, whether one comes to the conclusion that they are so closely related that they should not both be proceeded with concurrently.
I have come to the conclusion that they can be distinguished. One could say that the principle of both bills is to establish a distinctive national flag. I rather look at them as two bills, each providing a method for the establishment of a distinctive national flag. One bill, as hon. members will recall, was debated and stands for resumption of debate on second reading. That bill deals with the heraldic method of establishing a Canadian flag. This bill puts the onus on the governor in council. The motion before the house which I allowed to proceed does not necessarily provide for a flag at all; it simply calls for the government to establish a referendum on the issue.
If one regards the principle as being one of method of disposing of this important issue of the flag, I think the two bills are distinguishable, and that the debate may proceed.


Mr. Laurier Regnier (St. Boniface):: Mr. Speaker, I am in favour of the principle of this bill and I think the government would be very well advised to make a decision on this matter. In 1945 and 1946 the committee examined some 2,695 models of flags and after about nine months' study came down to two models. I think the line of division in the committee was between those who wanted a flag which had the maple leaf on it, without the union jack, and those who wanted the maple leaf with the union jack. A study was made by the Hon. Mr. MacNichol in the committee and he found there were 1,611 flags
with the maple leaf and only 383 with the union jack. It was 67 per cent one way and 16 per cent the other way.
I should like to read a letter in order to show the great interest in Canada on this subject of a national flag. I have here a letter which I received from 49 Rothsay avenue, Toronto 18, Ontario, dated February 3, 1961. It is addressed to myself and reads:
An enthusiastic congratulation from us to you on your recent stand in parliament on a distinctive Canadian flag. We are solidly in favour of a distinctive Canadian maple leaf flag.
We are high school students who believe that our first loyalty goes to Canada: not to England and the union jack or the United States and the dollar bill.
The defaced red ensign offends our national pride. A people without its own flag is like an unheralded king, a bannerless army, a nameless citizen. A country which uses a borrowed flag cannot truthfully mark its soldiers' graves, decorate its streets or give unfaltering symbol to its youth.
The youth of Canada today feel that our national anthem is "O Canada" and not "God Save the Queen". Today in our high school ten students and myself have started to collect signatures for a petition of 300 names. The response is terrific. On our first day we have collected close to a hundred signatures. We will present our petition to the school principal in order to get "O Canada" played at least three times a week-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I suggest the hon. member's letter is not relevant at this point. The question before the house is whether the governor in council shall prepare a design for a distinctive national flag.


Laurier Arthur Régnier: Thank you, Your Honour. I
will just read the last paragraph of the letter, which I think deals with the matter in question:
We wish that there were more M.P.'s who wanted Canada to have her own flag. You are on the right track and may you have every success in your commendable efforts.
This letter is signed by Mr. Bill Evans, president, native son youth.


Some hon. Members:: Question.


Mr. Speaker:: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member, but it is six o'clock.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, I take it that the business for Monday and Tuesday is as announced last evening; that is, a motion to go into supply and the other business mentioned?


Gordon Minto Churchill: The business for Monday and Tuesday is as announced. I am waiting to hear the subject matter of the debate on those days.


Lionel Chevrier: It will come in due course.


[Stage Direction]
At six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.

[Stage Direction]
The following answers, deposited with the Clerk of the house, are printed in the official report of debates pursuant to standing order 39:

Mr. Racine: 1.	What has been the preparation and printing cost of the Canada atlas?
2.	How many such volumes have been printed (a) in English? (b) in French?
3.	How many such volumes have been sold (a) in English? (b) in French?
Answer by: Hon. Noel Dorion (Secretary of
State):
1.	The cost of printing and materials excluding labour and Queen's printer costs amounted to $71,500. Precise costs, particularly of the preparation, would be impossible to assess as it would include meetings of interdepartmental committees and the various other committees which were held from time to time to consider planning of the atlas and would also include research done by this and several contributing departments. No one was ever employed exclusively for any length of time on Atlas of Canada work and it would be impossible to determine how much of the work was done along with other duties.
Questions
2.	To be answered by the Department of Public Printing and Stationery.
3.	To be answered by the Department of Public Printing and Stationery.
In so far as the Department of Public Printing and Stationery is concerned.
1.	Covers and bindery operations for 6,500 volumes completed and 1,500 in process, total cost to date, $104,808.
2. (a) 5,000, (b) 1,500.
3. (a) 5,000, (b) 1,500.


MONCTON, N.B. UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE OFFICE  APPEAL BOARD
Mr. Michaud: What are the names and addresses of the members of the appeal board for the Moncton, New Brunswick, unemployment insurance commission office?
Answer by: Hon. Michael Starr (Minister of
Labour):
Personnel of the board of referees for Moncton, N.B., is as follows:
Chairman, Mr. L. D. Wadman, 7 Park street.
Employers' panel: Mr. R. D. Bannon, 166 MacBeath avenue; Mr. Walter C. Cosmon, 55 Victoria street; Mr. G. I. Mills, 38 Duf-ferin street.
Insured persons' panel: Mr. E. McAllister, 40 Jones street; Mr. W. Touchie, 124 Pine street; Mr. G. W. Roy Myles, 105 York street.



END OF VOLUME II


[Stage Direction]
Monday, January 16, 1961