1961-02-16

UNITED NATIONS


Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, I thank hon. members of the house for giving me an opportunity to make a statement in regard to the Congo situation, which is much in the thoughts and hearts of peace loving people everywhere in the world. I felt that it was proper that whatever information is available to the government should be given to the house, and that course will be followed not only on this occasion but in the days ahead.
In the last few days the Soviet aim has been the pursuance of its selfish ambition in central Africa and, in this pursuit, to paralyse the United Nations at a time when a supreme effort is demanded to prevent further deterioration in the crisis existing in the Congo.
I wish again today to reiterate support for the statement made by the secretary general in the security council yesterday when he replied to the Soviet charges. The United Nations organization was asked last year, first by the security council and later by the general assembly, to carry out certain responsibilities. There has not been that degree of co-operation required of member states for such a major undertaking. Quite apart from the complexity of the Congo situation itself, some members of the United Nations and especially the Soviet union have sought to frustrate the United Nations effort through direct interference in the internal affairs of the Congo. This mischief making has not prevented the same governments from calling on the United Nations to take action designed to serve partisan interests rather than to benefit the Congolese people.
In the face of the internal problems, the outside interference and the confusion and indecision on the part of member governments of the United Nations, the secretary general has sought to preserve and promote a United Nations policy which would lift the Congo situation from the conflict of interest of the powers seeking their own aims in Africa and would enable the Congolese people to solve for themselves their political difficulties.
In his statement yesterday Mr. Hammar-skjold demonstrated a full awareness of the direction in which his duty lies and a determination to continue on that course so long as he has sufficient support from the member governments. The main support must come from the African states themselves and from their Asian partners. If African progress and independence are not to become casualties of the cold war, the uncommitted states must see to it that the Congo situation is resolved in accordance with the best interests of Africans and of world peace. The United Nations can assist immeasurably in the pursuit of these aims, but the initiative and the strength of the United Nations assistance will depend on the cohesion of African and Asian support for the organization.
I might recall that at the very outset of the crisis last July I expressed this view in the house, and it has continued to be a basic consideration in the government's policy toward the Congo and toward the United Nations intervention there.
I trust that the secretary general will be accorded the support needed at this very critical time, from an overwhelming majority of the United Nations members. Now more than ever the United Nations must be given the authority it needs, and the required means, to use United Nations instruments in the Congo for the protection of civilians, for the promotion and enforcement of cease-fires, and for the reorganization of the Congolese security forces. There is need, too, for reassurance that outside interference, from whatever quarter, will cease. Only in these conditions can the United Nation hope to pursue its efforts to preserve the independence and integrity of the Congo, to maintain order there and to bring about the necessary reconciliation of all political interests in that country. I think that Canadians as a whole, and members of this house, will agree that the government should spare no effort to promote the attainment of these ends at the United Nations and wherever Canadian influence can be brought to bear effectively.
I might mention that the advisory committee for the Congo is holding an important meeting this afternoon in New York to consider a report by the conciliation commission, now in the Congo, which contains recommendations of a positive character. I might summarize those recommendations by saying

Statement on Congo Crisis that most of them are in line with the secretary general's plans for the Congo, including provisions for the establishment in general of a broadly based government.
I do not think there is anything further I can add at this time except to say that everything possible is being done in this connection by the government.


Hon. L. B. Pearson (Leader of ihe Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, I know the house will have listened with great interest to the Prime Minister's statement, which underlines the seriousness and indeed the dangers of the situation in the Congo. I thought this was also done yesterday with great impressiveness by the President of the United States in his wise words on this matter.
It seems to me, Mr. Speaker, that the dangers we face in. this situation are threefold. There is a very real danger that the Congo will become a battleground in the cold war, and in doing so perhaps bring the, whole of Africa into the cold war, something which it has been the aim of members of the United Nations to avoid. The second danger is that, if things go wrong, the United Nations will be very gravely weakened, and the policies being pursued by the Soviet union and some of its friends at the present time are, it seems to me, in danger of having that result. Third, it may destroy a secretary general who has served the organization and served peace with such unselfish and patient distinction; and if that is allowed to happen it will destroy or weaken gravely the whole office of secretary general, whoever may be holder of that office in the future.
Surely, as the Prime Minister has said, what we should be doing in this situation is seeking for ways and means to strengthen, not weaken, United Nations intervention in the Congo, as was pointed out yesterday by the prime minister of India, in order to restore peace to that tragic land and build a foundation of order which would make freedom meaningful there. I do not know exactly how this can be done, of course, but perhaps one approach to a solution-this has been mentioned by others-would be to bring the Congo under some kind of trusteeship or something analogous to trusteeship by agreement at the United Nations, and then place in charge of the country as the administrator for the United Nations an Asian member, perhaps India, and, if that were the course followed, then we should back up the Asian country chosen as administrator with every kind of support, technical assistance, financial assistance, police assistance and political assistance. Perhaps this may be a way out of this difficulty. But if some way is not found 

not only will the United Nations be in danger but peace itself may be jeopardized.


Mr. H. W. Herridge (Kootenay West):: Mr. Speaker, in commenting upon the most interesting statement made by the Prime Minister with respect to the recent most tragic sequence of events in the Congo, I wish to say on behalf of this group that the former premier, Patrice Lumumba, was a person who without doubt, though possibly in the wrong way, strove to bring freedom to his people. Mr. Dag Hammarskjold, the Secretary General of the United Nations, has striven in every way, as we all know, to do his duty and carry out his instructions from that body.
Unfortunately both these persons have been victims of circumstances and a swirling of events over which they had little control. As far as this group are concerned, we believe that recriminations from any source would only serve to deepen the tragedy, create further chaos and make the solution of the problem more difficult and more distant. We support every effort that the government may make to use Canadian influence through the United Nations in order to strengthen, shall I say, the moral and material interests of the United Nations with respect to this very important matter.
Possibly in that direction we can not only use our moral influence along the lines suggested by the Prime Minister in the statement he read and along the lines suggested by the Leader of the Opposition. To indicate our sincerity and our willingness to put a shoulder to the wheel to the limit of Canadian ability and resources, possibly we might agree to increase our forces in the Congo if necessary or if called upon to do so, to send more food to the Congo, if necessary, than we have in the past and, if necessary, to provide further medical supplies.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, if I might make reference to a suggestion by the Leader of the Opposition regarding trusteeship, I would say that this suggestion has been made on other occasions. As he knows, it has its limitations and shortcomings.
I appreciate the words of both hon. gentlemen, and I think I should add this. Time is of the essence. The report of the conciliation commission which will be considered today provides for measures to stop the fighting and the drift toward civil war, the insulation of the Congolese national army from politics, the setting up of a training scheme under a defence council, and the meeting of all political leaders of the Congo to work out a new constitution along federal lines.
These recommendations come from a report made by a committee representative of the

Asian and African countries, and indicates the care and attention that has been given by those charged with the responsibility of being on that committee to meet the perilous possibilities inherent in inaction or uncertainty at this time.



PRIVILEGE


Hon. Lionel Chevrier (Laurier):: I rise on a question of privilege, sir, which concerns the business of the house as well as the rights of the opposition. I should like to refer to Hansard for Tuesday, February 14. When I asked the leader of the house what the business for the next day would be, he said, as reported on page 2058:
The third item will be the continuation of the debate on the budget resolutions. If that debate is not concluded, we will carry on with it on Thursday.
This, sir, was confirmation of what the house leader had said on Monday and on the previous Thursday. I was therefore astonished when, without consultation with me and in my absence, the following exchange took place last evening, according to the Hansard record at page 2091:


Mr. Pickersgill:: I assume that we will go on with this business tomorrow.


Mr. Churchill:: I think it would be preferable, Mr. Speaker, if we were to bring up this particular item of business at a later time. Tomorrow we will take item No. 4 on today's order paper, the second reading of Bill No. C-69 dealing with the proposed railway line to Mattagami lake, which was discussed in the resolution stage yesterday.
In other words, what was announced last night was entirely different business from what had been announced earlier for the rest of the week.
My question of privilege, sir, is twofold. First, it has to do with advance notice of the business, which it has been the custom and tradition of this house to give to the opposition in order that they may properly prepare for debate. But there is another, and in my opinion more important and more serious matter affecting privilege. It is this. The Minister of Finance stated in the house on February 8, according to the Hansard record, page 1848, that we on this side of the house were delaying the progress of the budget resolutions. I should like to quote what he said in answer to a question put by the hon. member for Essex East seeking information about distressed areas. The answer was this:


Hon. Donald M. Fleming (Minister of Finance):: Mr. Speaker, this will be done, of course, in due course; but as I pointed out when I was last asked a similar question, this is a matter in which some expediting of the budget resolutions would assist very much.
Question of Privilege
A little further, on that same page, we find the following exchange by the Minister of Finance:
Perhaps we may have some progress some day soon on these budget resolutions. We spent three days on one very short resolution last week. I hope we will have more co-operation from the opposition from this point on.
Then as found on the following page, namely page 1849, in answer to a question by the Leader of the Opposition having to do with the policy of the government on chronic unemployment areas, the Minister of Finance replied as follows:
If the Leader of the Opposition will look at the answers I gave to the hon. member for Laurier when he first asked a similar question about a week ago, the hon. gentleman will find that I pointed out that I thought the house should pass on the budget before we attempted to deal piecemeal with some of the matters that I dealt with in the budget.
I say that these three statements by the Minister of Finance which I have extracted from Hansard of February 8 are a reflection on the opposition; and here we are at February 16, eight days later, and still the budget resolutions have not been discussed.


An hon. Member:: What is the question of privilege?


Lionel Chevrier: The question of privilege is this. All the delay is caused, first, by the absence of the Minister of Finance from the house-


Donald Methuen Fleming: No.


Lionel Chevrier: -and next, by his refusal to go on even when he is in the house. It seems to me that the least the government might do, if they are not prepared to go on with the budget resolutions as they undertook to do, would be to announce the areas of chronic unemployment, instead of blaming the opposition for procrastination which is entirely of their own making.


Mr. Speaker:: Has the hon. member for Laurier concluded?


Lionel Chevrier: I have concluded, sir.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Laurier has raised a double-barrelled issue. I will deal with the first part which has reference to the business of the house as forecast. Had the hon. member for Laurier wished a change in the program for today, all that was required was a telephone call to me this morning suggesting that something should not be gone ahead with, and we might have made the alteration.
Each Thursday I have attempted to make a forecast; I started this practice last year and

Question of Privilege have continued it this session. For the benefit of all hon. members, not just those on the opposite side of the house, I have attempted to forecast the business for the following week as a guide for everybody in the house. However, I have been careful to state that this forecast is subject to change because the situation varies from day to day.
That is precisely what happened this week. It was not possible to bring forward the budget resolutions until Wednesday. Yesterday, I presume to the surprise of everyone, we did not reach the business of the house until a quarter after four, I believe it was, owing to the prolonged question period. After we dealt with one or two minor items there was little time left for discussion of the budget resolutions. Before the conclusion of yesterday's sitting a decision had to be reached as to what we would do today. That decision had to be reached just close to six o'clock. It appeared then that the house desired more time in which to consider the budget resolutions. Had it been possible to pass the first one yesterday, we considered it might have been possible to go ahead today with the one dealing with income tax. However, as the house appeared to desire more time on the first budget resolution it seemed wiser to shift to some other business, and that is precisely the decision I made.
I did not and do not feel myself committed to any forecast that goes a day or two ahead of the day on which we are going to sit. We are subject to adjustment from time to time as seems necessary. That adjustment is made on both sides of the house, Mr. Speaker. It will not be long before the hon. member for Laurier will be asking me to defer some piece of business because someone on his side is away and wants to participate in the debate. I will gladly do so in order to accommodate him, and the same statement holds true with regard to the corner group, as they called themselves yesterday.


An hon. Member:: The small group.


Mr. Argue:: The effective opposition.


Gordon Minto Churchill: That is my own opinion also. Now, the reason I called second reading of the bill concerning the Mattagami railway was that I noticed there was general agreement on the other side of the house at the resolution stage. The hon. member for Laurier praised it twice in the course of his speech, and the hon. member for Villeneuve, who made a lengthy speech on the subject, spoke of the general advantages to be derived from that railway. I concluded therefore that there was a general desire to get ahead with the measure and that, consequently, we would proceed with it today.


That is the situation with regard to the business of this house. But, as I said last year, if the opposition does not like to have a forecast ahead of time I will revert to the practice followed by Mr. Harris when he was leader of the house, and announce the business for the following day the night before. I did not think that was very satisfactory in those days, and that is why I have adopted this other method.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Perhaps I might deal with the second part of the observation made by the hon. member for Laurier in the course of the speech he smuggled into a question of privilege. The hon. gentleman made reference to observations I had on February 8 as to the lack of progress with the budget resolutions concerning proposed amendments to the Customs Tariff.
You will recall, Mr. Speaker, that there are two resolutions before the committee of ways and means arising out of the budget; first, a short amendment to the Customs Tariff and, second, a series of proposed amendments to the Income Tax Act. We have now spent a total of four days on this small amendment to the Customs Tariff-a very short amendment, presenting an issue which could be discussed, surely, with reasonable brevity. I am not suggesting that anybody should abate or curtail his remarks, but I draw attention to the fact that this is one amendment and it is not a lengthy one. Despite all the time spent so far in committee we have still not been able to start in the committee of ways and means on the resolution relating to the Income Tax Act.
On February 8, as the hon. member for Laurier has pointed out, I drew attention to the fact that three days had already been spent in committee on the amendment to the Customs Tariff, and I deplored the fact that we were making such slow progress. Yesterday, another day was spent on this.


John Whitney Pickersgill: One hour.


Donald Methuen Fleming: What remained of the day's sitting after an unusual length of time had been spent on the preliminary proceedings and the question period. It is quite obvious, Mr. Speaker, and I draw this to your attention to correct the improper impression which the hon. member for Laurier would otherwise have left, that yesterday afternoon hon. members opposite were simply repeating what they had said before and were trying to delay the proceedings. If you look at page 2089 of Hansard, you will see that I used the words "Talk it out again".


Mr. Speaker:: Order. May I say to the hon. gentleman that I did not find a matter of privilege involved in what had been said before, but if the Minister of Finance now says that yesterday the opposition was trying to delay proceedings, I am sure there would be one. Perhaps the minister would not overwork the second point which was raised by the hon. member for Laurier. I allowed considerable discussion on the first point, not because there seemed to be a matter of privilege involved but because it related to a subject which concerns us all, namely the ordering of the business of the house. It seems to me that enough has been said about this point. There is really no question of privilege before us, and if the minister continues it will be to debate the question of whether or not there has been any delay in dealing with the budget resolutions. I do not consider that subject to be before the house for debate, and with those cautionary words may I express the hope that the minister will conclude his remarks.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I shall be pleased to conclude them. I had simply put those facts before the house because of the very misleading impression the remarks of the hon. member for Laurier might otherwise have left. The government is anxious to go on with this business as quickly as possible, and we shall be glad to have the co-operation of all hon. members in doing so.


An hon. Member:: Why didn't you go on with them?


Donald Methuen Fleming: I am asked why we didn't go on with them. Well, we hoped that after hon. members opposite had had an opportunity of considering this, they would stop the filibuster they have been conducting.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Whether or not there was a question of privilege before, there is one now. The remarks which the minister made yesterday were applied to me. At the very close of the day, when I said I should like to ask the house leader if the government was no longer anxious to get the budget resolutions through which we were accused of holding up, the Minister of Finance replied, to use his own words as printed in Hansard:
And you are still accused of holding up in a most deliberate way.
That was a reflection on my right as a member of this house and a member of the opposition to debate a revolutionary change in the tax system of this country which the minister calls a small matter.


Donald Methuen Fleming: No, it is not a small matter. It is an important matter.
Inquiries of the Ministry


John Whitney Pickersgill: The hon. gentleman whose performance five years ago we all remember now objects to the opposition debating legislation.


Mr. Speaker:: With the leave of the house I should like to revert to the presentation of reports under routine proceedings.



STANDING ORDERS

[Stage Direction]
Third report of standing committee on standing orders-Miss Aitken.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Lester Bowles Pearson: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Finance in the absence of the Prime Minister, based on the announcement of policy made two months ago by the government that double depreciation would be applied to industries in areas of surplus unemployment in the country and that such areas would be designated by the governor in council.
My question is this. In view of the record unemployment revealed in yesterday's figures, will the minister assure the house that after a delay now of two months, no further procrastination will be allowed in this matter, and that the government will declare at once the areas to which this special incentive will apply?


Donald Methuen Fleming: You will permit me, I trust, Mr. Speaker, to make the observation on that question that it is a thoroughly improper question to be asked on the orders of the day. It is the type of question which you have referred to in many rulings as being an argumentative question designed to put certain statements or, in this case, misstatements before the house. It was not designed to ask for information. There has not yet been any procrastination, nor will there be. This question was asked yesterday, and it was answered yesterday. This matter is being dealt with, and it will be dealt with effectively.


Hon. Paul Martin (Essex East):: May I ask
the Minister of Finance if it is not a fact that the implementation of the government's declared policy of double depreciation can be made effective without waiting for the passage of the budget resolutions, that that power now resides in the hands of the minister under the present Income Tax Act?

Inquiries of the Ministry


Donald Methuen Fleming: This is a matter which has been dealt with now on, I think, four or five occasions in the house. The last one was yesterday, and I do not know how long it is to be expected, Mr. Speaker, that this question should be asked day after day. I gave the answer yesterday.


Mr. Benidickson:: We want the executive to act.


Donald Methuen Fleming: This is a matter w'hich could be dealt with by order in council under regulatory power but, as I pointed out on an earlier occasion, it would not have been proper for the executive to deal with this until the house had passed on the budget. That has now been done and we have proceeded in the meantime to deal with this matter. I repeat that we are dealing with this matter, and dealing with it effectively.


John Whitney Pickersgill: In secret.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, we hear-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I understood that the minister had completed his answer.


Donald Methuen Fleming: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, I had made my statement, but again the hon. member for Bona-vista-Twillingate makes a statement while seated which goes on Hansard and remains there. I expect that you did not hear it. If the hon. member's comment is going to remain on the record I think those of us who do hear these things in this part of the house should have an opportunity to comment on them.
The hon. member said "In secret". I have not been aware that the cabinet at any time in Canada's history proceeded by any other method than by that method. The cabinet is required to conduct its meetings in that way. That is the kind of observation that is being made now by the hon. member for Bona-vista-Twillingate as though there were something new, unusual or improper about the cabinet holding its meetings in secret.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, since the minister has chosen to make a question of privilege of a remark I made-


Donald Methuen Fleming: It was not a question of privilege but a point of order.


John Whitney Pickersgill: -I should be permitted to reply to the hon. gentleman's question of privilege. The minister did say "question of privilege" as you will find by looking at Hansard. I may say that the minister is quite wrong in saying that action by the cabinet is in secret. The action is not in secret, but the deliberations are; and we want action.


Mr. Ricard:: Splitting hairs.


Donald Methuen Fleming: How silly can you get?


William Moore Benidickson: I have seen no order in council yet on this double depreciation matter.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I think this inquiry has gone as far as it can usefully go without becoming a debate. I recognize the hon. member for Essex East, who is rising to a point of order.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition asked the Minister of Finance when this policy of double depreciation was going to be made effective.


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Paul Joseph James Martin: This is a point of order. It is true that under our rules no minister can be compelled to say what government policy is or when it should be announced. What I would point out to Your Honour is that when the minister introduced his budget he announced that policy, and no minister has the right to refuse to say when a policy already announced will be made effective. That is the question we are now asking because of this serious problem of unemployment.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member for Essex East presents as a point of order, a comment on the reply given to a question asked before the orders of the day. I think the practice of the house is well settled that although hon. members of the house may put to the ministers questions about their administrative responsibilities, they cannot insist on answers nor can they comment on the absence of answers. That is clearly set out in Beauchesne's exposition of the practice in this period of our proceedings. There is the right to ask a supplementary question and hon. members do use that not only for eliciting additional information but for comment, but it is not an approved practice.
The question that was asked was one of those which do not seek information but rather press the government to take some action. That is the particular kind of question where there should be no comment on the answer, because it is not a question asking for factual information.



UNEMPLOYMENT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. W. H. McMillan (Welland):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Labour. He indicated yesterday that there were approximately 200,000

people employed on site and off site under the winter works program. Would the number of unemployed be increased by approximately 200,000 if we did not have this program, or are some of these people still included in the list of unemployed?


Hon. Michael Slarr (Minister of Labour):: Mr. Speaker, if some of these people were not hired on these jobs at the time the bureau of statistics made its survey during a certain period of the month, they certainly would be included. However, it might be that two days after the survey had been made a great many of these people could have been hired on such jobs.



PENSIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hazen Robert Argue: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Health and Welfare arising out of the great interest in portable pensions that exists throughout the country, and the statement by the chairman of the Ontario committee on portable pensions to the effect that they could be produced only with the co-operation of the federal government. My question is, has there been any consultation between representatives of the Ontario government and the federal government toward the end of introducing a portable pension plan in Canada?


Hon. J. W. Monteilh (Minister of National Health and Welfare):: No, Mr. Speaker.



CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. S. Speakman (Wetaskiwin):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of National Revenue based on a letter I received only today. For that reason I was unable to give him notice. Is the minister aware of any plan by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation to move its CBX transmitter station from the town of Lacombe in central Alberta to either Calgary or Edmonton, or both?


Hon. George C. Nowlan (Minister of National Revenue):: Mr. Speaker, I have no information on the matter. I will take it up with the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, obtain the information and advise the house at the earliest possible moment.
Inquiries of the Ministry


James Stanley Speakman: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. In view of the fact that upwards of 100,000 people, probably the heaviest concentration of rural population-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I question whether the hon. member is right in making this comment on his first question which has now been taken as notice. He may have a right to ask a supplementary question when he gets his answer.



STATEMENT ON REPORTED REDUCTIONS IN ADVERTISING RATES

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. M. J. A. Lambert (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of National Revenue):: Mr. Speaker, on Monday last the hon. member for Peterborough asked a question, which appears on page 1972 of Hansard, with respect to serious advertising rate slashes by the C.B.C. The minister has been informed by the C.B.C. as follows. The corporation has not slashed advertising rates, nor does it engage in forms of merchandising and promotion which constitute rate slashing. Corporation selling practice is guided strictly by published rate cards, specifying rates for national network, national selective, and local retail business. No sales are made at variance with these published rates.
There has been recent discussion in the press regarding the extension of the C.B.C.'s local rate policy for T.V. to the Halifax, Montreal and Ottawa markets. This was not a new policy but one which was established as long ago as 1957 in Vancouver and 1958 in Toronto. The principle of local retail rates has long been established in newspaper and private broadcasting circles.



CRIMINAL CODE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. D. M. Fisher (Port Arthur):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Justice. I am encouraged to ask it because of the serious significance leading members of the government in general usually attach to public opinion polls. Has the minister noted the overwhelming affirmative response to the La Presse poll on provincial lotteries? I should like to ask if his department is presently considering changes to the Criminal Code enabling such provincial enterprises?


Hon. E. D. Fulton (Minister of Justice):: Mr. Speaker, the whole question of lotteries and related matters is under consideration in my department at the present time. I expect shortly to be in a position to take up this

Inquiries of the Ministry question with my colleagues. Anything further will have to await a decision, and when one is made it will be announced in the usual fashion.



SHIPPING


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. J. Robichaud (Gloucester):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Transport. Can the minister inform the house whether it is the intention of his department to proceed at an early date with the installation of a marine aid station on the bay of Chaleur side of Shippegan island and, if so, could the minister give detailed information on this proposed project?


Hon. Leon Balcer (Minister of Transport):: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member was good enough to give me notice of this question, but unfortunately he did not specify the type of aid to navigation that he was referring to, and without such specific details I was unable to find anything that I could report today. If the hon. gentleman would be kind enough to tell me exactly what it is he is seeking I will endeavour to answer his question. At the present time with such information as the hon. member has provided, I must say I think there is no such project planned for Shippegan island.


Hédard-J. Robichaud: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Is the minister aware that a survey was made last summer by the officials of his department in order to determine the location for a Decca station?


Mr. Speaker:: I do not know that it is an urgent matter to inquire if the minister is aware of a survey having been made last summer.


Hédard-J. Robichaud: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, the minister asked me to specify the type of station to which I referred, and I am attempting now to specify that it was a Decca station.



NORTH SYDNEY, N.S.  REPORTED LACK OF CO- OPERATION BY ICEBREAKERS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Robert Muir (Cape Breton North and Victoria):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Transport. This question is prompted by a communication from the secretary of local 1259, I.L.A., of North Sydney, Nova Scotia. Would the minister advise whether there has been lack of co-operation, as charged, in regard to having

icebreakers free the Canadian National Railway ships in the harbour there, and further that within recent days the S.S. Cabot Strait and other ships have been diverted from the port of North Sydney, which of course is detrimental to the economy of the area concerned.


Léon Balcer: Upon receiving notice of this question from the hon. member I made a quick inquiry. I am assured by my officials that the icebreakers in the area are giving the utmost co-operation to shipping at the present time.
As far as the particular case of the S.S. Cabot Strait is concerned, when this ship first asked for icebreaker assistance it was immediately furnished. The ship was freed from the ice and got moving toward Sydney until the master told the master of the icebreaker that he was not prepared to take the Cabot Strait any farther.



TRANSPORT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Walter Pitman (Peterborough):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Public Works. Has the minister had any representations from or any consultations with the Progressive Conservative club of St. Francis Xavier University, who are circulating a proposal relative to the building of a tunnel from Newfoundland to Cape Breton-	|


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I do not think the hon. member would assert that it is the administrative responsibility of the minister in question to deal with political clubs. That is outside of his public responsibility, and it is not proper to ask questions of that kind.



METROPOLITAN TORONTO


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. R. Garland (Nipissing):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Finance. Can the minister say whether metropolitan Toronto's request for a subway loan has been granted or rejected by the government?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, when a conclusion has been reached and communicated to the city of Toronto it will then be appropriate to make it known to the house.



AGRICULTURE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Jay Waldo Monteith: Mr. Speaker, on Tuesday last the hon. member for Drummond-Artha-baska asked my colleague, the Minister of Agriculture, whether action has been taken by order in council to permit the use of dried whey powder instead of a smaller quantity of dried skim milk powder in the preparation of bread. This matter comes within my jurisdiction, as the standards for foods such as this are established by means of the Food and Drug Act and its regulations.
The national council of the baking industry has suggested that the regulations with respect to standards for enriched bread be revised to permit the use of four parts by weight of dried whey powder for each 100 parts of flour used in preparing the bread. At present the requirement is two parts by weight of skim milk powder, and the council is suggesting this change as an alternative. No action has been taken on the council's suggestions, as the matter is still under consideration within my department.



ST. LAWRENCE SEAWAY NEWSPRINT    SUGGESTED RECLASSIFICATION AS BULK CARGO

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. M. Batten (Humber-St. George's):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Transport. Has the minister received representations from the manufacturers of newsprint requesting that newsprint shipped through the St. Lawrence seaway be considered as bulk cargo rather than general cargo? If so, has any action been taken?


Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker, as a matter of fact I received a brief on this subject within the last few days, and the brief is under consideration at the present time.



COMBINES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. W. A. McLennan (New Westminster):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Justice. Is the minister aware of allegations that Robin Hood Flour Mills Limited are conducting a price cutting war in British Columbia on cake mix
Inquiries of the Ministry products, which contravenes section 33, subparagraph (c) of the Combines Act? If so, what action is contemplated?


Edmund Davie Fulton: Mr. Speaker, in reply to the hon. member I can say that this complaint has been drawn to my attention, and in turn it has been referred to the director of the Combines Investigation Act for his consideration.



DRUGS-INQUIRY AS TO REPORT OF COMMISSION

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Herman Maxwell Batten: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Justice. I should like to inquire whether the minister read that frightening story in the Ottawa Journal last night of the Dale family of Ottawa, who are having to spend an annual $8,000 on drugs for the treatment of four of their children suffering from cystic fibrosis; and whether, in the light of the Journal's current series on drug profiteering, which in some cases has been running as high as 1,000 per cent, the government's combines investigation commission will report soon on its finding in its drug investigation.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Mr. Speaker, it was, I think, just in the last 10 days or two weeks that I informed the house in reply to a question that the director expects to bring his statement before the commission by the end of this month; but that it would not be possible to give a forecast as to when the commission might be in a position to make its formal report because of the large volume of evidence already obtained and the fact that the number of persons who wish to make representations or give evidence before the commission cannot of course be ascertained at the present time. All I can say is that the inquiry is proceeding with all possible dispatch.



UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Gabriel Roberge (Meganlic):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Labour of which I was able to give him notice. My question has to do with the unemployment insurance benefits which are denied to claimants who have worked for a relative or for a casual employer. Has the minister's attention been directed to a resolution of protest by the chamber of commerce of St. Charles de Bellechasse, which was addressed to him, according to a news item in Le Soleil of Friday, February 10 last? If so, is he prepared to make a statement at this time, and also what remedial action does he intend to take?

Inquiries of the Ministry


Michael Starr: I do not recall having received the particular resolution in question. I can assure the hon. member, however, that when it is brought to my attention it will be dealt with in the normal course of events. I might say this briefly, Mr. Speaker. Section 25(a) of the Unemployment Insurance Act specifies that one of the conditions of insurability is that a contract of service exists between employer and employee. This may be either written or verbal. There are also sections in the act as well as in the regulations dealing with employment of relatives and casual employment. Generally these are in the category of excepted employment.
It is not possible to make general observations covering all possible varieties of circumstances, since each case, Mr. Speaker, usually has its own individual peculiarities. In general I might say that at the present time the regulations are being applied by the unemployment insurance commission in accordance with the letter and the spirit of the law.



AIRPORTS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Harold E. Winch (Vancouver Easi):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Transport. As a result of his conversations with the mayor of Vancouver, the council and the chairman of the port committee, is the minister in a position to advise the house relative to a federal offer to purchase the Vancouver airport or of federal aid toward its further development?


Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker, we had a very interesting meeting with the delegation from Vancouver. They submitted a new proposal-as a matter of fact several new proposals-and we had a preliminary discussion of the various ones. The department has agreed to make a new study of the whole matter. As soon as a decision is reached on those proposals I will be very pleased to communicate it to the house.



HOUSING


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John Richard Garland: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Public Works. Is the government planning any early action, such as lowering the National Housing Act interest rate, that would have the effect of getting the chartered banks-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member asked a similar question within the last week, to my recollection.


Mr. Walker:: This is the ninth time this session.


Mr. Speaker:: He will correct me if I am wrong. I do not believe the hon. member will think that it is in order to repeat the question, which in this particular case is asking for a declaration of policy in any event.


John Richard Garland: If I may say so, with respect, my question had to do with getting the chartered banks back into the lending business in time for the building season this year.


Mr. Speaker:: I understood the hon. member's question to relate to interest rates being altered for a specific purpose.



DEFENCE PRODUCTION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Douglas Mason Fisher: Yesterday I asked a question of the Minister of Defence Production, and he said it would be a very appropriate question to ask the Minister of National Defence. I wonder whether I could ask now why, if the development of the Bobcat has been completed, has it been necessary to develop further pilot models over a two-year period rather than initiate production in the magnitude of several hundred, as indicated by General Pearkes last year.


Hon. D. S. Harkness (Minister of National Defence):: Mr. Speaker, the development program of the Bobcat resulted in the construction of four handmade prototypes. Having decided to go into production, there is a requirement for product improvement and pilot models in order that the transition from the engineering model to mass production techniques can be reflected in the drawings and specifications required to obtain firm fixed price tenders. Without such a pilot run it would be difficult for tenderers to make an accurate bid and subsequently for the government to hold the contractor to his quotation. This, I might say, is a normal procedure in the production of any major item of equipment for which there is a requirement for a considerable number of units.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I should like to ask a supplementary question. Is this an indication that the scale of urgency for this particular product in the services is not very high?


Douglas Scott Harkness: No, Mr. Speaker. This is normal, good business practice on going into the production of equipment of this kind. It is the same sort of practice that commercial companies, such as automobile manufacturers and so on, follow before they bring out a new model.



UNITED NATIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Lucien Cardin (Richelieu-Vercheres):: Mr. Speaker, yesterday I directed a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs and he asked that I address it to the Minister of National Defence. The question I asked yesterday was whether Canadian soldiers who were injured in clashes with the Congolese and were returned to Canada before December would be eligible for the special allowance to Canadian soldiers participating in the Congo action.


Douglas Scott Harkness: No, Mr. Speaker, they will not be eligible. The purpose of the special allowance which has been made is to cover the cost of extras which people over there are required to buy at very greatly inflated prices. I understand that a tube of toothpaste for example, costs from $1.50 to $2. The people who have already returned do not need the allowance for this purpose.


Louis-Joseph-Lucien Cardin: Because of the circumstances, difficulties and hardships that have been experienced by Canadian soldiers in the Congo and the relatively small cost involved, will the government not reconsider making the special allowance retroactive to cover the tour of duty rather than to December 1?


Harold Edward Winch: Mr. Speaker, I am sorry I did not think of the question earlier, but I should like to ask the Minister of National Defence a supplementary question with respect to his statement concerning the extra allowance for our forces in the Congo. Is his department not operating a commissary for our forces in the Congo and, if so, why are these people being charged $1.50 for a tube of toothpaste?


Douglas Scott Harkness: Mr. Speaker, we are providing a certain number of items of various kinds, of course, but if the hon. member has had any experience of military life he would be aware of the fact that soldiers serving in a strange area are constantly visiting the stores and picking up various small items.
Inquiries of the Ministry


Harold Edward Winch: Not toothpaste; and may I point out for the minister's information that I served four years in the army.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Mr. Speaker, I must point out to the hon. member that I mentioned the price of toothpaste as just one example of the scale of prices. I mentioned it as an example only.
(Translation):



IMPORTS OF VEGETABLES FROM CUBA

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Samuel Boulanger (Drummond-Ariha-baska):: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of National Health and Welfare (Mr. Monteith).
Would the minister kindly ask his colleague, the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Hamilton), to reply to my question of February 7, concerning imports of tomatoes and other vegetables from Cuba.
(Text):


Jay Waldo Monteith: I will bring this matter to the attention of the Minister of Agriculture, Mr. Speaker.


Jay Waldo Monteith: Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member for Drummond-Arthabaska was referring to a question which appears on page 1795 of Hansard for February 7, he will find that it was answered by the Minister of Agriculture on February 8, as found on page 1851 of Hansard.



POLYMER CORPORATION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Minister of Defence Production whether it is a fact that the Polymer Corporation has now established a branch operation in France in which there is private participation both as to capital investment and administration? If that is a fact, is it intended to allow private participation in the Polymer Corporation plant located in Sarnia?


Hon. Raymond O'Hurley (Minister of Defence Production):: There is one partner in the expansion program of Polymer at Strasbourg, France. That partner is the Banque de Paris et des Pays Bas, through whom provision is being made for the financial set-up of Polymer in France. This is the only partner in the company in France, and the policy has

Inquiries of the Ministry not changed as to the participation of private individuals here in Canada in the Polymer Corporation.



DOMINION-PROVINCIAL CONFERENCE FEDERAL PROPOSALS RESPECTING TAX-SHARING

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Minister of Finance whether he would take the House of Commons into his confidence to the same extent that he appears to have taken the Empire club of Winnipeg with respect to the proposals that are to be made to the premiers of the provinces next week.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, the house has been as fully taken into the confidence of the government as the Empire club of Winnipeg or other organizations outside the house have been. I suggest to the hon. member that he refresh his failing memory by consulting the record of the house.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Could I ask a supplementary question? Does the minister-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I think the hon. member will agree that the question was not such as should have been asked; therefore a supplementary would not be in order.


John Whitney Pickersgill: On a question of privilege, Mr. Speaker, the press did report that the minister made certain statements to the Empire club of Winnipeg that were not made in this house at all, particularly with respect to the reversion to taxation by the provinces. The press may be wrong and the minister may wish to deny that, but what I sought to ask as a supplementary question was whether the government was adhering to the announcement made last October that after 1962 the provinces would have to impose their own income taxes.


Donald Methuen Fleming: With respect, Mr. Speaker, I think I should take the opportunity to comment on this matter. I spoke from a text in Winnipeg, and the text is available to the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillin-gate or anybody else who wishes to see it. I did not say anything about reversion. I was not talking about the matter which has been referred to by the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate, and I can only infer that this is an indulgence in fiction on the part of the Winnipeg Free Press.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I wonder whether I could ask the minister if he would put me on his mailing list.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I think my first judgment about this matter was right.
[Mr. O'Hurley.1



FINANCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John Richard Garland: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Finance. Will the minister comment on any progress being made toward the establishment of a secondary mortgage market in Canada?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, when such an announcement becomes appropriate it will, of course, be made to the house.



CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS


Léon Balcer: the second reading of Bill No. C-69, respecting the construction of a line of railway in the province of Quebec by Canadian National Railway Company from a point at or near mile 72 of the Kiask Falls subdivision in a northwesterly direction to a point in the vicinity of Mattagami lake.
He said: Mr. Speaker, as the title of the bill indicates, authority is being sought to enable Canadian National Railways to build a 60-mile branch line from a point about 72 miles north of Barraute in the province of Quebec to a point near Mattagami lake and, as I said at the resolution stage, the cost of construction is estimated at $8,400,000 or $140,000 per mile.
The Mattagami lake area, Mr. Speaker, has been prospected off and on during the past half century, but it was only when modern geophysical methods of prospecting were applied in the 1950's that the presence of mineral deposits that could be economically developed was established. The first and most important discovery was made on a property which is now owned by Mattagami Lake Mines Limited, a company which is controlled by Noranda Mines Limited and McIntyre Porcupine Mines Limited. Canadian Explorations Limited has also spent substantial sums of money in turning up large reserves of zinc and copper ore at that location.
The plans call for the installation at the mine property of a concentrate mill having a capacity of 2,000 tons of ore daily, and the construction in the St. Lawrence river valley of a refinery having a capacity of 200 to 250 tons of zinc metal a day. The company expects to begin production at this rate toward the end of next year.
The prospective traffic on the proposed line consists mainly of zinc concentrates, of which about 165,000 tons will move annually to the

mining company's refinery, and copper concentrates, 25,000 tons of which will move each year to the Noranda mine's smelter at Noranda. Other traffic made up of mine supplies and general merchandise will also be carried over the line. The Canadian National Railways have secured a traffic guarantee under which the mining company has undertaken to ship annually a minimum total of zinc concentrates during the first 10 years. The agreement contains a penalty provision in case the shipments in any year fall short of the guaranteed tonnage.
As I said when I spoke at the resolution stage, this project deserves encouragement as one that should improve the net position of the Canadian National Railways as well as contribute to the development of this important mineral and pulpwood area. As I mentioned when the resolution was before the committee, I intend to move that the bill be referred to the committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines, where officers of the Canadian National will be present to give further particulars as may be required.
(Translation):


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, the house will appreciate the statement just made by the minister. However, he should, to my mind, take this opportunity to explain the policies of the government and of the Canadian National Railways with regard to the building of a branch line. I am telling hon. members nothing new when I say that there has always been a distinction between the two because, after all, the government organization, i.e. the Canadian National, did previously proceed with the construction of various branch lines on behalf of the government and for the benefit of Canada. What I would like to know, and what the house would like to know too, is whether there is a distinction made between the policy of the Canadian National on the one hand, and that of the government on the other, with regard to the construction of such a branch line. And, should such a distinction be made, I would like to know what would happen, for instance, if the federal government should decide on its own, to build a railway line, while the Canadian National felt the project would be uneconomic. In saying this I have in mind not only the Mattagami lake line, because I believe that the minister just said it is a profitable project; however I shall have something to say on that point later on. I am thinking of other branch lines, because, as the minister knows, it has repeatedly been mentioned the other night that some branch lines might be built elsewhere. I therefore wonder if there
Canadian National Railways is any distinction to be made between the two policies, that of the Canadian National on the one hand, and that of the federal government on the other. I hope that the minister will be able to give us a relevant explanation later today.
I think this is an excellent occasion for the minister to establish that distinction, if there is any to be made.
Now, to come back to the bill before us, quite a number of questions occur to me. I wonder whether the minister would be kind enough to give some attention to them later. When he made his statement on the principle, earlier this week, he did not give any details as to the financial soundness of the project. Earlier today, in his statement before second reading of the bill, he made only a brief reference to the matter.
Accordingly, I wonder if it would not be possible to have further details on the matter because, if I remember well, when in similar circumstances the question of building a similar branch line came up, the minister tabled a very comprehensive statement of accounts indicating the revenues which the National Railway expected to receive on one hand, and on the other, the expenses for the construction of the line, the depreciation and maintenance costs, and finally, the possibility of any surplus.
I think that the house would be interested to know, first of all the financial position of that line according to the estimates prepared by C.N.R. officials. That is the first question which comes to my mind at this time.
Second, what are the concentrates or the ores, apart from those mentioned a few moments ago by the minister, which might be added to the traffic from that point, i.e. Mattagami lake?
Third, to what extent, and in how much time, will the project be self-sustaining? I imagine that, as sometimes happens, the project might not be profitable the first few years. Of course, it will all depend on the volume of traffic and on how many tons of zinc will be transported by that railway.
Moreover, I would like to know how the cost of that railway line compares with that of the other branch lines. I am thinking of the Barraute-Kiask Falls line, of the Beat-tyville-Chibougamau or Cache Lake line and, finally, of the Chibougamau-St. Felicien line. Of course, the cost must be higher right now, because construction costs must have gone up. Still, it would be of interest for the house to know the difference in cost for those various lines, which, after all, run through the same district and are rather similar.

Canadian National Railways
The minister will probably remember that, when the construction of the Senneterre-St. Felicien branch line, via Chibougamau, was discussed, statements were made in this house -which were later on challenged and denied -that traffic from the Chibougamau district would be directed to Toronto. And, as that railway line is connected with mile 72, which is very close to Kiask Falls, I would like the minister to tell us whether the products of the mine will be directed to Toronto or not. Personally, I am convinced that this is not the case.


Léon Balcer: I said so, or at least I think I said so earlier, in my statement.


Lionel Chevrier: Well, I was probably not listening to what the minister was saying at the time. I think that, on the contrary, he said the products would be shipped to the province of Quebec rather than Ontario. I am satisfied he said that, because the line now under consideration is a branch line of those that were built in 1944 and 1945.
Other questions also come to my mind; they have to do with the financing of the project by the C.N.R. Is there a difference between the form of this bill and that of others previously submitted to parliament, as, for instance, the bill submitted by his predecessor with regard to the line between Chisel lake, I think, and Optic lake. Are all those lines financed in the same way by the C.N.R.? Those are questions whose answers could interest the house. Until we have had an opportunity of asking further questions later, that is all for now.
(Text):


Douglas Mason Fisher: Mr. Speaker, what I was really curious about in following the translation was the significance of the remarks made by the hon. member who has just taken his seat as they came through the system, as an indication that somehow Ontario might be gaining more benefits or that the resources would be tapped into Ontario rather than into Quebec.
I could not understand the context in which the hon. member presents this view. It is certainly a question in which I am interested, not so much as someone living in Ontario but rather from the fact that this seems to be a fairly strong feeling amongst Quebec people, namely that the railway structure of Canada in the past, particularly in the Ontario northland, has led the orientation of northwestern Quebec in particular to Ontario rather than to what Quebec people may consider its proper centres of influence, namely Montreal and Quebec city.

We all appreciate this matter of watersheds of influence. I know that the people in Quebec in particular appreciate it from a cultural point of view. If the minister is going to comment on the remarks made by the hon. member for Laurier I would appreciate having his estimate of just what this branch line will do in this regard. I refer to the orientation of resources and people toward the province in which the line particularly lies.
The other point on which I should like to touch is this. We reiterate our approval of this measure. We know that before the committee we shall be able to get the details, especially from the officials of the Canadian National Railways, with regard to the plans and the future prospects. However, I should like to know from the minister what are the actual metals that will be coming up or will form the main base of the area as far as the railway is concerned. Are they to be processed, as far as he knows, at Noranda or in the Rouyn area, or is this material likely to find a market in other refineries right across North America? We should have some kind of projection on that point.
The other point on which I think the minister did not touch is the question of competition for traffic. We understand that there is a good road into these mining properties now; that this is not an instance in which the railway is going to be the only means of access. In our own experience with Manitouwadge, where both the C.N.R. and the C.P.R. built lines into two base metal mines, the mines have been quite successful. I refer to Geco and Willroy. They have actually done better than was expected. Their production has been fairly high and the actual base metal product is moved out by rail. However, that is about all that is moving out by rail, and it is only extremely heavy equipment that is moving in by rail. The lion's share of the shipping or the transportation of the things that keep the community going seems to be by truck; these things seem to be going in much more by truck than by rail.
I am wondering whether the minister could not give us some indication as to the prospects the C.N.R. and the government see with regard to the ratio of over-all shipping into the Mattagami lake area that will be hauled by the railway in relation to that hauled by other interests. Are there in existence at the present time franchises to trucking concerns in that area, or is there some protection to the railway from this type of shipping? I suggest that the example we would probably have is what has happened in other areas along new branch lines. Is the Chibougamau area in general being served largely by the

railway both with regard to passengers and in what you might call the general cargo sense, or is most of the traffic going by truck?
The reason I think we could consider this matter is that the general tendency in so much of our transportation today in Canada seems to be to have an oversupply of transportation facilities, something which may be fine in a competitive sense but which usually means that we have overmuch capital tied up in transportation concerns. While these are general questions, I think the minister may be in a position to enlighten us on them.


Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker-


Mr. Speaker:: I must inform the house that if the minister speaks now he will close the debate.
(Translation):


Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker, a few minutes ago, the hon. member for Laurier (Mr. Chevrier) put certain questions to me and asked for certain details.
His first question had to do with the government policy: is there any difference between the policy of the government and that of the C.N.R. in the matter of the construction of railway lines.
Well, each such project is studied on its merits. There is no doubt that the present project is self-sustaining; therefore the C.N.R. will not need any subvention and the government will not have to assume part of the construction costs as happened in certain cases, especially for the Chibougamau railway. As I say, each of those cases must be studied on its own merits. It is not always possible to judge or decide on the need for a railway simply on the basis of whether it is self-sustaining, and whether it will be so at once. It is often necessary to extend rail service to certain areas in order to foster their development. In many cases, and for a few years, a railway is not self-sustaining. Then the C.N.R. asks the government for a subvention to help cover the deficits of the first years.
Besides, I believe that my hon. friend found out that the same practice has been followed in the past and on many occasions.


Lionel Chevrier: May I add a supplementary question? The minister answered the first part of the question, that the main concern of the C.N.R. is whether the project is selfsupporting. But has the government any policy, distinct and independent from that of the C.N.R., concerning the construction of railway lines?
90205-6-133
Canadian National Railways


Léon Balcer: As I explained a moment ago, each case is studied on its merits. The government's policy is to foster the development of natural resources across the country by all the means at its disposal.
We already indicated that at the present time the government is having a survey made concerning a new Pine Point line. In that case, it will no doubt be necessary to grant a subvention to the C.N.R. That branch line cannot be self-sustaining from the start because too great a distance is involved.
I am giving those details without having gone into all the aspects of the question. For instance, I did not have an opportunity to go into the financing of that railway line.
If I understood the hon. member's question correctly, he would like to know whether the government, before the railway line is built, will require evidence of the project being self-sustaining from the very start.
Even if this is a repetition, I say that each case is studied on its merits, that is according to the needs of the area to be served.
The hon. member for Laurier asked the following question: what is the financial situation concerning that branch line?
As I said, there is a guarantee on the part of Mattagami Lake Mines Limited of approximately 1.4 million tons of zinc, of zinc concentrates for the first ten years, and it is further stipulated that the railway will collect a fine of $5.10 a ton every time the traffic volume does not reach 140,000 tons-


Lionel Chevrier: The minister means 1.4 million tons.


Léon Balcer: 1.4 million tons-


Lionel Chevrier: The minister said 140,000 tons.


Léon Balcer: No, it is 140,000 tons a year, or 1.4 million tons for 10 years.
That guarantee involves certain other details. But the railway line as such can be operated and pay its way during the first 10 years at least.
The hon. member for Laurier asked me what other ore concentrates could be extracted or exported from the area.
The hon. member for Chapleau (Mr. Martel) and the hon. member for Villeneuve (Mr. Dumas) gave us a complete description of the mineral potential of that area in this regard.
I am not an expert in the study of mining fields, but both of them stated-and all experts are agreed on that-that it is one of the

Canadian National Railways richest areas of the province, and even of Canada, in minerals of all kinds, and that is why the Canadian National Railways would like that railway to be built as soon as possible.


Lionel Chevrier: It is the minister who submits the project to the parliament, and not the member for Villeneuve.


Léon Balcer: No, no, understand.


Lionel Chevrier: Nor the member for Cha-pleau. It is up to you to prove its usefulness.


Léon Balcer: I did prove it. Besides, I said at the beginning that there would be 165 thousand tons of zinc and 25 thousand tons of copper concentrate transported each year.
The member for Laurier also asked me where that mineral would be shipped to. Well, the 165 thousand tons of zinc will be shipped to the St. Lawrence valley, in the province of Quebec, where the company will build a smelter which will employ nearly-


Lionel Chevrier: Where will that smelter be built?


Léon Balcer: I could not tell you exactly at this time. The exact place is not yet determined; I do not have that information. However, I know it will be in the Montreal area.
As for the 25,000 tons of copper concentrate, they will be shipped by rail to the smelter of the Noranda Mines Limited, in Noranda, in the province of Quebec.
As for the financing of the project, we have followed the same method, the same financing system which was adopted these last few years each time the construction of a line of that kind was involved. There is nothing new in that. It is exactly the same for all railway lines of that kind, which are merely branch lines.
(Text):
The hon. member for Port Arthur asked me some very interesting questions. He asked me whether this would help, primarily, the province of Quebec, and I think he was wondering why this question was being raised by the hon. member for Laurier. The idea is, as I said, that 165,000 tons of zinc will be processed at a smelter in the St. Lawrence valley in the neighbourhood of Montreal, and that 25,000 tons of copper concentrate will be processed at the smelter at Noranda Mines, Noranda, Quebec.
As far as competition by trucks is concerned, may I say that eventually, of course, there will be a road to this area, but that


is still a matter for the future. I do not know exactly what stage that project has reached, but the road is not ready yet. I cannot tell the hon. member now how much merchandise and goods, or even how much concentrate, could be moved by truck in connection with such a project. The other day I was in the Chibougamau area, and I was talking with a trucker who was telling me that before the railroad was built he used to work for a trucking company which ran big convoys of about 70 trucks every day bringing down the concentrate to a railhead near, I think, St. Felicien. However, after the railroad had been built, the trucks ceased to carry the concentrate or the ore. It may be that the same thing will happen in this case, because the area is certainly a very long distance from the smelter that is to be built near Montreal, and it is also a certain distance from Noranda. I do not think trucks will be able to compete in carrying the zinc or copper concentrate over such a long haul. Of course it is hypothetical, but that is about the best I can do at this stage in answering on this subject.


Douglas Mason Fisher: The question involves the projection of other traffic. I appreciate that concentrates going to refineries hundreds of miles away will move by rail. We subsidize railways to go into development areas. They carry the bulk traffic which is in a sense low cost traffic, and lose their share of the high cost traffic. My question was directed to ascertaining whether there was some kind of protection for the railway so they can carry an all-round scale of traffic into that area rather than just the concentrates, which I admit will almost always go in by rail rather than truck.


Léon Balcer: That is a good point. I am sure the experts of the railways who will be present in the committee will be in a better position than I to answer questions of that kind.
On Tuesday the hon. member for Port Arthur asked about employment on the physical construction of the railway. The management figures that construction will require an approximate minimum of 175 men, and that the maximum requirement will rise to between 350 and 400 men. The average number employed will be of the order of 250 men. Of course these figures are approximate, because it is difficult to estimate at the present time. The work will be done by a private contractor. If we base our estimates on similar work in similar areas, that is about the amount of employment the construction itself will bring.

The hon. member also asked what kind of train service will be provided when the line is in operation. At the present time management figures it will be approximately the same as the train service now operating to Chibougamau. This service will tie in with the Chibougamau service. This will mean about three trains a week, although if the traffic warrants it the service will be extended.
As to the completion of the line, industry at this time is pressing the railway to have the line completed by September, 1962 rather than at the end of that year. This date will not be easy to meet, but the railway will do everything it can to have the line ready by that date.
I believe I have answered all the questions asked by the hon. members for Laurier and Port Arthur. If hon. gentlemen have any other questions of this type I am sure the officials of the railway when they are present before the committee will be pleased to answer such inquiries.
(Translation):


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, I wonder
whether I could revert to the matter of financing. I am not altogether happy with the reply given me by the minister. The minister said the project was self-sustaining. I am quite prepared to believe that is the case. But I would like to have on record some indication that it is indeed self-sustaining, because the minister has already mentioned the guarantee of 1,400,000 tons of zinc for a 10-year period. How much revenue would thus accrue to the railway? He also said that it would carry 165,000 tons of zinc, and 25,000 tons of copper concentrate.
What revenue will those items provide to the Canadian National Railway? Above all, I should like to know what will be the total revenue, on the one hand, and what will be the total expenditure, including depreciation, interest, etc., on the other, so that we may know if, in the first year, for instance, the railway will make a profit or whether it will have to wait two, three or five years.


Léon Balcer: According to the information on hand, the revenue for the first year will be sufficient to cover operation costs, including maintenance, as well as all expenses connected with traffic on the rest of the system, for that particular line-


Lionel Chevrier: What will be the revenue?


Léon Balcer: -as well as the interests and depreciation on all the necessary equipment. I do not have the exact figures. As for the estimated surplus, if my hon. friend-
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Lionel Chevrier: Will the minister give us this information later?


Léon Balcer: Certainly, with pleasure.


Lionel Chevrier: The total amount of expenses and profits?


Léon Balcer: Yes, you will definitely be provided with those figures.


Lionel Chevrier: Now, I intended to direct another question to the minister, but the hon. member for Port Arthur (Mr. Fisher) raised it. The minister mentioned that Matta-gami Lake Mines Limited, has guaranteed the transportation of 1,400,000 tons of zinc. But what assurance have we got, for instance, that trucks will not attract part of the traffic over and above those 1,400,000 tons of zinc, as well as that of copper or any other minerals that might be discovered in that area, and which could normally be shipped by rail. As trucking concerns are on their toes and very competive, nothing prevents them from approaching mining officials to get that traffic. Then, is there some guarantee on the part of the group interested in the construction of the railway that the C.N.R. will obtain all the traffic?


Léon Balcer: The only information I
have at present, Mr. Speaker, is that this guarantee is limited to 1,400,000 tons of zinc for a 10-year period. It is the minimum guarantee given by that company, Mattagami Lake Mines Limited to the Canadian National Railways. Now, as to any surplus, I could not give you any details. However, I certainly will try to get that information. But I know it is the minimum guarantee required by the railway to construct that line.
(Text):


Mr. Speaker:: If the minister has concluded his address perhaps the details might be dealt with in the committee. I will now put the question.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referred to the standing committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines.
Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, I should like to raise a question of privilege before the next order of business is called. I misunderstood Your Honour when you suggested a moment ago that we go into committee of the whole. I have a series of questions I wanted to ask the minister and which I still have before me. I thought I would be given the opportunity of doing this when we went into committee of the whole, but as I see it now that opportunity is not going to be given me.

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Mr. Speaker:: The bill has been referred to the standing committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines. I hope I am not doing the hon. member an injury. It is really a procedural question. The hon. member for Laurier knows that questions of detail are usually reserved for the committee stage, where it is possible in an informal way to elicit information. The hon. member did have opportunity in his main address and subsequently when the minister was speaking to ask quite a number of questions.


Lionel Chevrier: I do not think it is too serious. The only thing is that I would like to get answers from the minister. As it is now, I will not be able to get them until the committee sits or until the report of the committee is before the house again.



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Gordon Minto Churchill: 1.	That a select committee be appointed to consider the policy, operations and expenditures of the national research council, Atomic Energy of Canada Limited and Eldorado Mining and Refining Limited, and to report from time to time their observations and opinions thereon;
2.	That notwithstanding standing order 67, the committee shall consist of twenty members, of which eleven shall be a quorum;
3.	That the committee be empowered to sit during the sittings of the house, to print such papers and evidence from day to day as may be ordered by the committee and to send for persons, papers and records.
He said: Mr. Speaker, it is not my intention to speak at any length on this motion, because it is the same motion that was before the house last session in the month of May. It is expressed in identical terms, and is a motion to reconstitute the committee which was set up last session. That committee had seven meetings. In its second report to the house it asked that the committee, or a similar committee, be set up in the next session of parliament so that it might continue its deliberations. I might just read the first sentence of the report. It appears on page 170 of the seventh report of the minutes of proceedings and evidence of the special committee on research and reads:
This committee recommends that it be reconstituted early in the next session of parliament in order that it may continue its deliberations.
Last session the committee heard from the national research council and spent about five meetings, I think, dealing with subject matters raised that pertained to that institution. I think the committee had in mind, had

there been time available, to visit some of the establishments of the national research council. There was not time to do that; consequently they terminated their discussion of the national research council and at a subsequent meeting heard from the president of Atomic Energy of Canada Limited, who placed before them a comprehensive statement dealing with the activities of that organization.
Apparently the committee did not have time to go into that in detail; therefore its work was unfinished and it did not reach at all the third area of investigation, namely Eldorado Mining and Refining Limited. Consequently this motion is now before the house in order to set up this committee again. By setting it up in February we will give the committee a chance to complete the work it started last session and investigate thoroughly the three areas that are indicated in the resolution.
I might say the committee asked that its terms of reference be enlarged when it was set up again, but we have brought before the house now the terms of reference as they were last year; they are in exactly the same wording.
Last year I pointed out the value of a committee of the house studying the activities of those three bodies. I indicated that I thought four years had elapsed since research had been considered by a committee of the House of Commons, and, in view of the great importance of research and the great importance of atomic energy, that it would be advisable to study the activities of those organizations.
Over a long period of years the national research council has performed a function in Canadian life that merits commendation, and during the last few years Atomic Energy of Canada has kept well in the forefront of atomic development in the world. I think it would be enlightening and informative for the committee to examine very closely the work of Atomic Energy of Canada to see what progress is being made. In addition to the research facilities which it has established at Chalk River, Atomic Energy of Canada Limited is now in the process of expanding its activities, and later this year the first small reactor to deliver electric power to the Ontario grid will become operative. Within a four-year period a larger reactor, the CANDU operation, will become operative and will be delivering power to the Ontario grid. We feel confident that these two operations will prove of value in the use of uranium and heavy water as a source for the development of electric power.

Recently I was at Bombay, India, nearby which has been erected the Canada-India reactor based on the design of NRX at Chalk River and constructed with the advice and assistance of our atomic energy specialists and Canadian engineers, a joint operation between Canada and India, which was opened just last month by Prime Minister Nehru, representing India, and myself representing Canada. The Canada-India reactor is a very fine one. I would say it is the outstanding atomic energy reactor built in the world in the nature of its design and its appearance, and it will serve a very good purpose in the subcontinent of Asia to direct attention to atomic energy research and to train scientists in India, and I suppose in adjoining countries.
The future for the use of atomic energy for power is great. There are so many countries in the world that are looking forward to getting their power requirements from atomic energy plants that the pioneer work that is being done by Canada will likely bear fruit in the next few years. Therefore this is an appropriate time for a committee of the House of Commons to examine the very excellent work that is being done by our scientists and our engineers in the promotion of atomic energy and the development of atomic reactors. Then there is a third field for investigation by the committee, namely that of the Eldorado Mining and Refining Company, which did not have an opportunity to report to the committee last session.
This, Mr. Speaker, concludes my remarks. I commend to the house the setting up of this special committee.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, I am sure the house noted with interest the minister's firsthand statement on the official opening ceremony in connection with the Canada-India reactor at Bombay when he presented the resolution now before us for our consideration. It is a fact that Canada has every reason to be proud of the contribution it has made to the establishment of this reactor in one of the very large cities of India, and I believe the minister will appreciate my saying that I think it was appropriate that he, as the minister in charge of this phase of Canadian government operations, should have had the opportunity of attending as the representative of the Canadian government at the ceremonies in Bombay the other day.
I had the opportunity on one occasion, in 1956, of touring this tremendous installation, when it was in a stage of construction under the direction of the director, Professor Baba, who has played such a notable part in the
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international co-ordination of atomic energy knowledge. It will be recalled that Professor Baba, one of the distinguished scientists of the world and certainly one of the foremost in India, played a very notable part in the conference of world scientists convened in Geneva in 1954 at the instance of the present Secretary General of the United Nations, all as a prelude to the setting up of the atomic energy agency of the United Nations.
Speaking from memory, I believe Canada has contributed roughly half the cost of this reactor, and I believe the estimated cost at the beginning was somewhere in the neighbourhood of $35 million. There may have been further costs involved but in any event I am sure that Canadians will not be dissatisfied with the contribution they have made.
Hon. members may not recall the circumstances of that particular gift which flowed out of Canadian knowledge of atomic energy, the work being done at Chalk River and the work being done by our scientists in the national research council and in our universities generally. This contribution by Canada was among the first contributions made by a country with know-how in atomic energy to another country less endowed in that particular. We made our decision at a time when the United States had likewise decided to establish in the Far East an atomic energy installation in the Philippines.
I am sure we will all agree with the Minister of Veterans Affairs (Mr. Churchill) that this contribution of Canada toward bringing to India and to Asia a knowledge that was primarily discovered by scientists of the west is a contribution of which we will have every reason to be proud later. But, as Mr. Nehru said on one occasion, while it may be true that western scientists did initiate the discovery of atomic energy, no one can deny the great contribution made through the knowledge of Asian scientists out of which has grown the basic knowledge of scientists in the west who were given the opportunity of playing a primary role at the beginning of this great discovery.
The minister has said that in setting up this committee an opportunity will be afforded to examine the work being done by Canadian scientists and engineers, and I think that is a very important examination for parliament to make in connection with a matter that becomes increasingly of such importance in the development of our world and national societies. We are the only country with atomic energy know-how and with an atomic energy installation that right

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from the first decided that its atomic energy knowledge and installations would be used primarily for peaceful purposes. Neither the present government nor the former government has varied from that intention, and I am sure I express the hope of all Canadians when I say that I hope the turbulent conditions of our times will not prevent our adhering to that objective in the days to come.
I am sure this is a useful committee to set up and members of this party will play their part in giving responsible and careful scrutiny to the work of the national research council, Atomic Energy of Canada Limited and Eldorado Mining and Refining Limited.
I have one final thought. The developments that have taken place in the national research council with regard to the setting up of a special section for medical research are a matter to which the minister did not direct our attention but one which I know he will regard with us as a decision of the greatest importance. Great discoveries are being made in many areas of scientific activity. In the field of medical scientific research discoveries over the past decade and a half have been of the greatest significance. It would seem to me that the decision of the director of the national research council and others to give a special status to medical scientific research is a wise move, and I believe that under the direction of Dr. Ray Farquhar-son that decision will stimulate medical scientific research, give added assistance to medical research in our universities, and generally make it more financially possible for many potential scientists to make their contribution toward the improvement of medical and health standards in this country.
The kind of pursuit envisaged in the setting up of the committee is one which hon. members will follow with only one concern, the advancement of scientific causes in the hope that in the days to come such advancements will be used primarily in the interests of furthering the causes of civilization rather than for the purpose of devising ways and means of destroying that civilization.


Walter George Pitman: Mr. Speaker, it is a very great pleasure to be able to express the agreement of this group with the motion to set up a committee on research early in the session. Before I begin my remarks with regard to the committee, I should especially like to take this opportunity of doing what I have purposely refrained from doing up to now and pay my respects to the memory of my predecessor in the house, Mr. Gordon K. Fraser. I have not done so before because I wished to wait until I could relate his name to the area in which

he made his greatest contribution. All members now in their seats will know, of course, that he was chairman of the committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines at the time of his death, and possibly it was in this area that he made his most outstanding contribution. I know that his death nine or ten months ago was a tremendous shock to members of the house and I can assure you that it was a great shock to his constituents. Only a few weeks before I sat in the gallery as his guest and his respect for this house was evidenced in the fact that during the years he sat here he brought over 8,000 young people from the schools of Peterborough to Ottawa and entertained them here so that they could see the government of Canada in action. I can assure you that he will always be remembered as a credit to this house, a credit to his party and to his country. Indeed, it is with some humility that I attempt to follow in his footsteps.
In so far as the establishment of this committee is concerned, I think we must remember that it will give parliament an opportunity to investigate and to appreciate the work that has been done in this country in the field of research, especially since the second world war. Indeed, one might say that Canada has been in the forefront in this area of scientific research since 1916 when the national research council was set up. Perhaps it is as a result of this very important government agency that Canada's position is so high in this area of scientific research.
We in this corner are particularly enthusiastic since defence research has been separated from the national research council. Nearly everything which is done by the national research council, except in particular areas, is done in the name of peace. It is almost ridiculous now to say again that we stand at a fork in the road. One road leads to our complete annihilation, while the other leads to the end of poverty, sickness and disease throughout the world. I feel that years from now men will look back and realize that this country has done a great deal toward the solving of that problem. We have played a real role as a result of the national research council. It would take a great deal more time than is available at this moment to give the details of the work that has been done by the national research council in the various areas to which it has been assigned. It would take even longer to describe fully the fellowships, scholarships and grants which have been given, and the extent to which they have helped people in conducting research. I will, therefore, not go into that today.
Certainly one of the things which has been accomplished has been the bringing of foreign students to Canada to take part in this

scientific research, thus enabling them to take this knowledge back to their country. Surely no country can do more than this in contributing toward better understanding throughout the world. In addition, Canadian students have been able to go to other countries and have been given further opportunities for research. This interchange of ideas has perhaps made the men of science more internationalistic than any other group in the world. It would seem that the scientists are in the forefront of those who are concerned with making this a more peaceful world.
I am sure, Mr. Speaker, that as a result of its investigations this committee will come to realize the extent to which these agencies have given Canada a reputation second to none, especially in the area of atomic energy. Atomic Energy of Canada, of course, has had many pressures upon it. We realize that the resources of Canada are coming to an end or will be coming to an end during the next half century. We will be dependent, perhaps not in the foreseeable future but in the future, on atomic power. The fact that Canada has a nuclear reactor in Ontario is an indication that this nation is already looking ahead and is ready to begin the long process of converting to nuclear power. I am very proud of the fact that Canadian General Electric, a major industry in my constituency, has played a great role in this area of atomic research. Indeed, this private industry has supervised the construction and has helped to design this particular reactor, and has contributed some $2 million toward its erection. I think it is extremely important to remember that private enterprise is already willing to take an active part in this work.
I believe all these things point to the fact that this committee will provide parliament with an opportunity to participate in these most important developments. There are a number of problems with which I am sure all members in this house are particularly concerned. One of these problems is how nuclear power can be used safely and just exactly how we can get rid of radioactive material. These are things which must be investigated. It is to the advantage of Canada that she has begun her investigations early. I know that those members of this house who will be participating in this committee will find the work a great challenge.


Mr. Erik Nielsen (Yukon):: In rising to speak to this motion, I do so on behalf of an area in Canada which constitutes about 40 per cent of our nation. When one considers that little is known about the northern sections of the provinces across the country, one can see that I am speaking about 50 per cent of the country. Northern research has been
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sadly lacking, if not non-existent over the years. The investigations that were conducted by the mines, forests and waters committee in 1958 pointed up the serious lack of research in this area. I was rather hoping that when this committee was set up its terms of reference would contain a provision directing inquiries into the various factors which affect research in our northern areas.
At the moment the only research activities that are being carried on in the Canadian north are those which are being conducted by the Arctic institute which has established a station on Devon island in the Queen Elizabeth group. Then there is the Jacobson-McGill institute which has a station established on Axel Heiberg island. The stations which have been set up by these two units are run pretty well on private funds, particularly the Jacobson-McGill institute. Two other institutes have been established, one at the University of Alberta, which has been set up for research studies of the north. I believe this one is called the Boreal institute. Then there is one at the University of Saskatchewan which was established just last year or the year before, and I believe it is called the institute for northern studies. Of course, the Arctic institute finds its home in Montreal.
I feel that northern research is very important to the future development of Canada. I am sure the members of this house will agree on that score, particularly in the light of the northern development policy of this government. One should remember also that the United States is spending some $20 million annually on studies in the Antarctic. When considering the importance of northern research, one must keep in mind the fact that the Soviet union has approximately 100 Arctic stations that have been set up in that country for furthering these studies. These stations are in addition to the nine or ten floating ice stations, some of which are used as bases from which other scientific parties probe the Canadian sector of the Arctic. Since 1934 thousands of these travelling Russian scientific parties have probed the secrets of the Arctic to further their research. Indeed, they have come as close as 200 miles from the northern shore of the Yukon Territory.
I feel that the policy over past years regarding Canadian research in the Canadian arctic appears consistently to have been to do the minimum possible. The result has been that research has only been carried out when we have been pushed into it by other countries carrying out or wishing to carry out research in the Canadian arctic or by reason of some international program in which we had to participate such as the international

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geophysical year or we have been pushed into it by the realization of how far we were falling behind other countries in northern research. I think that in view of the findings of the mines, forests and waters committees in 1958 and the evidence in support of those findings that there can be little doubt that we are sadly lacking in our research activities in Canada's north when those activities are compared with those of other countries, particularly those of the Soviet union.
To some extent this neglect of northern research was natural. The country is large and there are pressing research problems elsewhere with more direct application, some of which the minister has mentioned, and scientists are scarce. With the need to meet the immediate demands of a rapidly expanding economy there has been a reluctance to assign to the north any large portion of the country's scientific effort that the particular northern problems require. It is also a fact that in general Canadians have never been attracted to the north. For instance, a large number of Canadian missionaries do work in China while many missionaries in northern Canada are drawn mainly from Europe.
The benefits to be derived by the nation from an active program of northern research are many and varied. For the effective development of the north a major expansion of research is essential in my view. Without thorough and continuing research any development in the north is certainly to be more costly and more easily misdirected. Owing to our geographical location Canada is expected as a northern nation, an arctic nation, to take a leading part in any northern matter, whether it is civil or military. This is an obligation which Canada, as a northern nation, as a people of the north, cannot evade, but it is one which we shall never fulfil effectively without adequate research.
In a rapidly shrinking world, in the age of jet and space travel, our sovereignty in the north must be continually reviewed and strengthened. There is no more effective way, no means less costly and no means more intrinsically useful of strengthening Canada's sovereignty in the north than the conduct of thorough scientific field research programs and the publication of their results. I am not the only one who shares this view. Dr. J. Tuzo Wilson, who is professor of geophysics at the University of Toronto, in 1959, wrote a series of articles for the Telegram. During the international geophysical year Dr. Wilson travelled some 100,000 miles over the earth and during the 18 months of IGY spent some time in both the Antarctic and the Arctic. As set forth in the Telegram of January 7, 1959, he indicates the following views:

If there is one thing that the IGY has brought out, it is that we don't know enough about the Polar regions. Because of their special position they have unique geophysical interest and importance, but most geophysical theories have been built up upon observations made in temperate regions. In the IGY fresh information obtained especially in the Antarctic has shown that our ideas about wheather, aurora, magnetism, cosmic rays, nearby space all need modification. What is especially needed now is more information about polar regions and particularly about the Canadian Arctic. To gain this will require not 1 per cent of what has been spent on arctic defense and will save itself many times over when new developments are required.
I am sure that the Canadian government is quite aware of this and indeed it is already preparing new programs, but one feature of great importance is missing-the participation of Canadian universities on an adequate scale.
What are some of the research needs in the Canadian north? This subject can be divided into headings, the first of which I feel is technical and resource survey. The fundamental importance of detailed technical surveys appears to have been recognized in recent years and there has been a marked increase in survey work in the north since the second world war. Indeed, there has been an extremely marked increase in this survey work during the past five years. The program of air photography is of particular value as air photography, together with securing adequate geodetic control, is the only practical method of detailed mapping of the north and it was a startling fact which was advanced from the inquiries of the mines, forests and water committee of 1958 that at the present rate of mapping our country it will take 100 years to complete it. The present program and the related mapping activities appear to be somewhat lagging and it should be reviewed to ensure that it is keeping pace with requirements.
As well as mapping the arctic islands, there is a problem of charting the arctic seas. A program which I submit, from the information that was available to the committee in 1958, the Russians have almost completed. Here there is a tremendous volume of work to be done before charts comparable in scale and accuracy to those of more frequented waters can be produced. At the present scale of effort it would take some 250 years to complete this type of mapping.
The current interest in the oil potential of the arctic islands and the advent of submarines in polar waters are recent pointers to the necessity of greatly increasing hydrographic charting in the north. This can be done only as a long term program for which more special ships are essential. Here I feel the government is to be congratulated on the program that the Department of Mines and Technical Survey is carrying out in the polar continental shelf project.

Our future in the north is a mineral future. Minerals are likely to prove by far the most important resource of the north. I think that fact is well recognized. The mineral potential of the north is still unknown and the need for geological surveys is obvious. In a recent release by the bureau of statistics I note that in British Columbia from their 20 silver producing mines they produce only $300,000 more than the Yukon Territory produced with its one silver mine. It is therefore obvious that the economy of the country as a whole can be strengthened to the benefit of all Canadians if more such mines are operating. Only about one third of the Canadian north has been covered by geological mapping even on a reconnaissance scale and still more remains to be done in gravity and airborne magnetometer surveys. Without the geological surveys Operation Franklin, no commercial interest would have developed at this time in the oil possibilities of the arctic islands.
I cannot stress too much the importance of research in this field. Should we not be thinking of setting up an arctic research station for the purpose of investigating ice conditions, water conditions, surface conditions generally and subsurface conditions, as an assistance to those who are conducting the search for oil and gas in Canada's arctic islands? Little is known about the geology in these areas.
While recognizing the paramount importance of minerals as a resource, other possibilities should not be neglected. There is little detailed information on the water power potential of Canadian arctic rivers or of their seasonal variation in flow. Study of the potential of fisheries and wildlife and of possible conservation measures should receive increased attention. In other northern countries reindeer herding has proved successful. Experience in Canada was at first promising but has recently been disappointing. The reason for this probably lies in the lack of research into all aspects of the reindeer industry.
Research, too, is related to transportation. Transportation is one of the things most desperately needed for the efficient opening up of the Canadian north. I have already mentioned the need for hydrographic surveys. A related field is the study of ice formation and the distribution and forecasting of ice conditions. This is work at which the Russians have for many years been far ahead of the rest of the world. Canadian ice studies have recently been co-ordinated under the meteorological division of the Department of Transport. Most of the work contemplated, however, appears to lie in the simple reporting and forecasting of ice conditions. A promising 90205-6-134
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area of research lies in the analysis of past records of ice and their correlation with meteorological factors.
Oceanography is of basic importance to submarine navigation as well as to fisheries research and has also far-reaching applications in other fields of science. I think that in 1958 the mines, forests and waters committee discovered that Canada had only one oceanographer in the whole of the scientific staff of the civil service and that we actually needed 35 as a minimum requirement. The program of Arctic oceanography initiated since the war and carried out to a large extent by the ship Labrador should be continued and expanded particularly in the channels between the islands of the Canadian arctic archipelago to complement the work of the Canadian polar continental shelf expedition which is now under way.
The joint arctic weather stations were established primarily for the purpose of forecasting and reporting weather conditions but they have provided a large amount of new data for research of wide interest. The programs at the stations could be further expanded, and Canadian sovereignty would be strengthened if the complete operation of these stations were taken over by Canada.
The application of recent advances in technology to the design and development of more suitable vehicles, aircraft and shipping for northern service would be of particular value to all northern activities. The transportation of the future in the north might well consist of truck trains with oversized or balloon tires travelling over the tundra and rocky country of the north to transport the ores to smelter and to market. Research into methods of icebreaking and the design of icebreaking vessels appears to be a most appropriate field for Canadian endeavour.
Owing to the events of the international geophysical year, geophysics have recently received considerable attention. The location of the north magnetic pole and the maximum auroral zone and the related implications for space travel and cosmic ray research make the Canadian north an area of exceptional geophysical significance which justifies a greatly expanded effort in geophysics. There are, however, other fields of pure research for which the north is particularly suitable. These include glaciology, arctic medicine, and physiology particularly in connection with cold adaptation and the interesting studies which were carried on during I.G.Y. by a team of doctors in the Old Crow region of the Yukon Territory from which some very useful results were obtained.
There is also a continuing requirement to collect and describe the natural history and material culture of the north and to conduct

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archaeological expeditions, a field in which, I am happy to note, the government is now taking a more active interest. The national collections do not compare favourably either in size or accessibility with those of other countries.
There are certain special conditions in the north influencing construction and development and causing problems whose solution requires both pure and applied research. The presence of permafrost, for instance, is one of the most common of these problems; this permanently frozen ground has far-reaching effects on all types of construction. The nature of permafrost has to be fully understood if satisfactory construction techniques are to be developed. I think the government has found out, to its sad disillusionment what this problem of permafrost can mean. I remember one building which was constructed at Yellowknife which had a full basement. It was ten feet lower the following year because of the thawing out of the surrounding permafrost.
Another problem is the prevalence of biting flies which make outside activity intolerable. Here, fortunately, research in control methods has produced promising results. This is particularly important if we are to have any development of livestock farming in the Yukon. There are many fields of modern technological research which can overcome or reduce northern problems such as the long distance transmission of power, possibly by direct current and the prevention of freezing in harbours by means of compressed air or by nuclear devices.
The current changes in the north cannot fail to have a profound effect on the native peoples. In recent sessions of the Yukon and Northwest Territories councils and elsewhere grave concern has been expressed that the impact of civilization and the consequent destruction of native culture is resulting in a serious and rapid decline in standards of morality. The situation demands a comprehensive program of research in social anthropology, to determine and define the problems facing native peoples under these conditions and to recommend measures to alleviate their difficulties of adjustment. Without these studies a heavy and continuing price will be paid in relief and rehabilitation measures as well as in human suffering which might have been avoided.
I mentioned the universities and so did Dr. Wilson in his series in the Toronto Telegram. In any plan to increase scientific activity in the north the universities must play an important part, both in the actual conduct of research and in the training of northern scientists. Scientists are hard to get at any

time but without sufficient government support we shall not get them at all. Scientists who are willing and able to go to the north but who cannot afford to outfit themselves stand in need of an organization with the necessary funds to back them. The government should therefore, in my view adopt the policy of supporting these institutions by grants in aid to such as the institute for northern studies in Saskatchewan in order to assist and encourage their research activities.
It has been suggested that some universities should specialize in northern studies. This appears however to be a restrictive policy. Northern research is so important to Canada that in my opinion all universities should be encouraged to undertake northern studies, and the need only becomes greater in view of the increasing demands which are being placed on the funds required to run our universities throughout the country. I appeal for government support in this field. The most effective way of providing this encouragement would be by making grants available to universities for programs of northern research. In this way certain faculties at universities could build up their capacity to undertake northern research and to provide trained scientists. This should be initiated immediately in order that university faculties might be able to orient their activities with the object of making grants on an increasing scale to reach about $1 million a year within three or four years. To serve both government and university scientists, laboratory facilities are necessary in the north itself. These should be on a modest scale-and I do mean modest scale -providing the minimum accommodation necessary for scientists to carry out such laboratory investigations as cannot be carried out in southern Canada.
Dr. Wilson suggests such an establishment at Hazen lake on Ellesmere island. The defence research board has a laboratory with facilities for defence research at Fort Churchill. I suggest that these facilities be made available for civil research. In addition, two laboratories, one in the high Arctic in the arctic islands and the other in the western Arctic, are necessary.
The government has taken a step in the right direction in providing in the estimates this year, I believe, sums to provide for the establishment of a research laboratory at the new settlement at Inuvik in the Northwest Territories. It will take about two years to complete even this small station.
I should like to conclude these remarks by quoting from an editorial entitled "Time to



IB, 1961

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Make the Arctic Ours" which appeared in the Kingston Whig-Standard, of March 6, 1959, and which reads:
It appears that we need to do more survey work in the area-*
Of northern Canada-
-and that the only really safe position is that of actual occupancy. It has been admitted by the minister of mines, Mr. Comtois, that very little has actually been done to increase the pace of our Arctic research. The government now has plans for more activity and there is at present an expedition on the continental shelf.
It seems strange that, with all the discussion of our sovereign rights during the past few years, the government has not done the obvious things in the north country. We talk a good deal about how important the whole area is to us, both economically and strategically, and yet we have undoubtedly neglected to act as if we were determined to keep trespassers out. We may wake up some day and find that this situation has been exploited by some other nation and that we have on our vital back doorstep a most unwelcome- and permanent-squatter.
Herman Maxwell Batten: Mr. Speaker, I should like to make a few comments on the setting up of this committee. I am very happy that this committee is being set up again this year. This, in my opinion, is a very important committee. In so far as it relates to the national research council I think it is important for parliament and for Canada to know what is being done in that organization. My own private opinion is that good work is being done and that while its activities are carried out within the confines of scientific laboratories the results of these activities should be communicated, not only to those who are indirectly affected but in particular to those who are directly concerned.
In so far as the activities of this committee are concerned with atomic energy it is important to know what progress is being made in a field in which Canada was a pioneer. In the atomic age and in the age of automation research in its widest sense expresses itself in our standard of living, in industry, in labour and, in fact, in every segment of our national life. I believe, too, that we are at this time passing through a stage when research in all its forms is more important than it has ever before been in the history of our country.
Last year's committee was set up late in the session and there was not time to do all the things which hon. members of the committee would like to have seen done. The operations of a research organization must of necessity be complex and time is required to obtain a detailed knowledge of its activities.
While the time at the disposal of the committee of last session was insufficient, I believe that the committee, under a very able chairman, made a very good beginning. This year, with the committee being set up earlier 90205-6-1344
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in the session I would hope that it would be able to give attention to those areas of inquiry which could not be considered last year.
I was fortunate enough to be a member of the committee last year. In the meetings we were able to have last year I came to the conclusion that the amount of work this committee is required to do is so great that it might be worth while if the committee were divided into two parts, one part dealing with the national research council and research in general and the other dealing with atomic energy and related research.
I do not know if the minister proposes to have this committee operate every year but I think it might be a good idea if in one year the committee would deal with the national research council and research in general and the following year deal with atomic energy, Eldorado Mining Company and other aspects of our atomic research.
We all know that research in the field of science has expanded greatly in Canada during the last 40 years. The national research council, established in 1916 under the name of the national advisory council for scientific and industrial research, had during its first year less than 20 employees. Last year the total of scientists, technical employees and service staff was approximately 2,600 and this figure does not include those employed in defence research and atomic energy.
The committee was able to see last year that the national research council has not only increased in size but has become increasingly important in the quality of its scientific investigations and the importance of these investigations has been recognized, not only in scientific circles in our own land but in every country in the world in which any worth-while research is being conducted.
During the third meeting of this committee last year the members were discussing the increase in the circulation of Canadian scientific journals. During this discussion it was learned that in the month of May 1960 the circulation of these journals totalled 10,000, 4,000 in Canada and 6,000 in foreign countries. Dr. E. W. R. Steacie, president of the national research council, used the distribution of these journals to illustrate the growth and importance of Canadian science. I should like to quote from page 121 of the evidence given before last year's committee, where Dr. Steacie in referring to the growth in Canadian scientific journals, said:
Really, this is just a reflection of the fact that Canadian science has come ahead. Thirty or forty years ago there were just the odd small groups which were internationally well-known. There has been a very big increase since. The net result is that scientifically, rather than being in the backwoods we have now become one of the important scientific countries in the world-

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This statement coming from a man of Dr. Steacie's stature, from a man who enjoys such a distinguished reputation in scientific circles both inside and outside Canada, should not be allowed to pass unnoticed and should indicate to parliament and to the Canadian people that the quality of Canadian science and research warrants our attention and support.
Last year when the minister referred to the setting up of this committee he said that the research complex consisted of government, universities and research. That may be one of the reasons why Canadian science has become so important as it is. It is because of this group of three which is doing such a fine job of research in Canada. I do not think that scientific research, fundamental research, or any other kind is ever going to be very important in any country unless the universities are able to make the greatest contribution possible.
As far as industrial research is concerned, I believe that we should take a much wider view. I know that industrial research may not come directly under this committee, but one thing I would suggest is that at some time or other this committee take a very wide look at research as it exists all across this country. At the moment I believe we are in a position where we cannot afford to have research in countries which are our competitors ahead of research in our own country. We need more products, different designs, not only for the people of our own country but for exports, and these new products and designs can be arrived at only by industrial research.
In years gone by not a great deal of research was done in this country and even up to recently much of it was done either by parent companies outside of Canada of subsidiaries in Canada or by large companies. In fact, even in 1959, 72 per cent of the total amount of money spent on industrial research was spent by companies whose liabilities were over $50,000,000. In this country we would not expect small companies would make a very large contribution to industrial research. Obviously they would not have the facilities to do so. An electronic microscope, for example, properly placed, would cost somewhere in the vicinity of $70,000 to $80,000. An infrared machine would cost in the vicinity of $15,000. These are expensive pieces of equipment for small industries, with the result that most of our industrial research has been done by the larger companies in conjunction with, of course, the universities and the national research council.
There are those who contend that we are not spending enough money on industrial research in this country. In the year 1960

the amount spent on research in Canada was about 1 per cent of the gross national product. This figure of 1 per cent is compared with the United States where the amount of money spent on research is about 2.74 per cent of the gross national product. I could not agree with this particular comparison for the simple reason that the United States government gives great support to defence production and to industries engaged in defence production, much more so than we do in Canada. I think a much better comparison would be to compare our situation with the situation in the United States in 1954. If we were to do that-and we would then be excluding much of the money which has moved into defence production-we would have the amount of money spent on research in Canada as one per cent of our gross national product and the amount spent on research in the United States as 1.4 per cent. When it is viewed in this manner it is obvious that we are spending per capita approximately the amount of money that the United States is spending. I am not trying to argue here that we are spending enough. I still think there are many things to be done in research in Canada and they can only be done by the government and industry making contributions to research in general and to the universities in particular.
I suppose most people have heard something about a little disagreement going on now between industry and the national research council. The national research council says that industry is not alert to the things that are being developed by the national research council, and the industry says that the national research council is not producing those things which can be easily manufactured. Here is a question which this committee might take the trouble to look into and see whether the needs of Canada, in so far as research is concerned, are being met by the national research council, by industry and by the universities.
I do not suppose that the suggestion which I am going to make now would have very much acceptance, but if this committee were to get a broad view of research as it goes on in this country I think it would be necessary not only to discuss what goes on with the national research council, with industry and with atomic energy and so forth, but what is done by other departments of government that have research departments. I am only talking about the other departments of government bringing in their research activities. I am not talking about discussing estimates, or anything like that. If that were done, then this committee would get an idea of what goes on not only in the national research council, in industry and at the

universities but it might also get an idea of the research that is being carried on by other departments of government. I know that this research in other departments of government is taken up in the committee to which the estimates are referred, but in this particular instance I believe that if departmental research were taken up in this particular committee it would be possible for the members of the committee to have a broader view of what actually goes on in research in this country.
I suppose it is a little bit difficult for any country to retain all the scientists it produces, but I believe we must make an effort to provide the proper equipment, the proper environment and the proper incentives for those Canadians who become expert in the field of research to remain in their own country and work for the good of their own country. I believe that can only be done after giving to research in all its phases the assistance which it deserves.
I am not going to make any comments now about the idea that has been talked about recently, namely the research community, but I believe that the research community has much to commend it and I believe it is really important to industrial research in this country. Therefore, as we increase our research in this field we shall be also retaining well trained scientists within the confines of our own country.
In the field of atomic research there are those who believe that here again we are spending too much money. I do not believe this is true. In 1960 the per capita expenditure by the Canadian government was $2.25. In the United States it was approximately $1 per person. Another measurement of how much we are spending on research and atomic energy as compared with the United States would be to compare the annual expenditure on nuclear power with the total annual value of sales of electricity. This figure for Canada would be 5 per cent; the figure for the United States would be 1.5 per cent.
I think there are two reasons why we in Canada should take nuclear research very seriously. First, Canada pioneered in this field and we should make every effort to maintain this advantage. Second, the time is not too far away when we are going to be able to construct small nuclear power plants which will be able to produce electric power efficiently. This will be of tremendous advantage in many parts of our own country, particularly the north, and certainly these units could be sold in many other parts of the world.
Canada should not spend on nuclear research at the expense of other forms of investigation but should spend enough to
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preserve and protect our interests at home and abroad. Some attempt should be made to determine what Canada should be spending. I think that would be a very good question for the committee to examine.
When we were discussing the report of the committee last year I thought that we were not spending enough money on medical research, and I believe that here is one field where a good deal more attention could be paid. The hon. member for Yukon (Mr. Nielsen) mentioned a few moments ago the transmission of electric power. I referred to this last year because I have a direct interest in the matter. We in Newfoundland have in Hamilton falls a great potential source of electricity. If that electricity has to be transmitted by the usual high tension alternating current method we are not going to get the amount of power from that source that we might otherwise get. I believe that here is a field of investigation-some other countries have taken up the matter-where we might investigate the possibilities of transmitting over long distances large amounts of power by direct current.
There are many other fields of investigation in Canada that need to be examined. There is no necessity of my saying any more now. I do say that I am pleased to see that the committee is being set up again. I think it has a lot of work before it and my main recommendation is that the committee be divided into two parts, one to undertake investigation of the national research council and research in general and the other to examine into research in the field of atomic energy.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Speaker, I always listen with interest to the remarks made by the hon. member for Hum-ber-St. George's (Mr. Batten) on topics of this type because I always think he makes a most thoughtful contribution to the debate. I rise to express my wholehearted support for the motion because I believe that in view of the importance of research to the Canadian economy it is very necessary that the house and the country be well informed concerning the policy, operations and expenditures of the national research council, Atomic Energy of Canada Limited and the Eldorado Mining and Refining Company Limited. When we realize that there is a total expenditure of approximately $30 million I think this indicates the scope of the work undertaken by these organizations.
Before proceeding to deal with the question I rose particularly to discuss, I should like to mention the fact that in a quite well known report some time ago it was suggested that the staff of the national research council and

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such organizations be brought under the terms of the Civil Service Act. As far as this group is concerned, we would oppose any suggestion to implement that recommendation regardless of the importance and the high standing of the gentleman who made the recommendation. We in this group think it would be most unfortunate to take a step in that direction. It would undermine the spirit of free inquiry and the spirit of scientific initiative which we believe it is most necessary to retain if the staffs of the national research council, Atomic Energy of Canada Limited and Eldorado Mining and Refining Company are going to make the greatest possible contribution to research at this time.
I rose particularly, Mr. Speaker, to deal with an article that appeared in the Financial Post of January 28.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Would the hon. member permit a question before he proceeds to another subject? Would he make it clear that the suggestion about the staff of the national research council did not come from anyone in the government?


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I am sorry if I did not make that clear. I thought everyone in the country was so well aware of the suggestion and had such knowledge of the details of the report that they would know the report to which I was referring. I am referring to a report made by Mr. Heeney, I believe, with respect to the civil service. I accuse the government of a great many delinquencies, but in this case, regardless of party, we all agree that they are not guilty.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Thank you.


Mr. Macdonnell:: I am very interested in what the hon. member has said and prima facie I am inclined to agree with him. However, if I were suddenly asked why I feel that research in this department is entirely different from research in the Department of Finance I would not be able to answer the question. Perhaps the hon. member could enlighten me.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I think research in the Department of Finance at the present time would be research related to government policies and possibly involving influences of that kind; in other words, surely it would be mathematical and mechanical research. I am referring to scientific research where the staff must be free to develop their lines of inquiry and their scientific investigations in a way that is unrelated to government policy.
Having leaped that rather low hurdle, I will now proceed with the matter that caused me to rise because in recent days I have been restraining myself very much, and I am sure

the hon. member for Greenwood (Mr. Mac-donnell) will give me full marks for that. I have reference to an article in the Financial Post of January 28, 1961 which has caused some concern to persons interested in the work of the national research council. While I am only a humble backwoodsman living a more or less peasant farmer's life under normal circumstances, I do read the Financial Post to find out what industry and those who control the wealth of this country are doing other than the control that is retained by governments, both federal and provincial, which in my opinion is increasing almost every day.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Then you say that research of this type is in a category by itself.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Quite right. I say that as a member of parliament and not as a scientist. I find that the Financial Post is a very responsible and reliable paper with respect to the economic questions that come before us in Canada and that are multiplying every day, not particularly because of the deficiencies of any government or individual but because of the nature of the development of our country which is becoming so complex and complicated. In my more or less contemplative moods, Mr. Speaker, when I look around me and realize the endless problems we face from day to day which I quite admit are not going to be solved entirely by legislation, I can well understand why the Buddhists build monasteries in the Himalayas.
I want to deal with this article because I have had some correspondence about it and as this paper has a wide circulation the article has caused some concern. After reading the editorial I will deal briefly with a few comments made by persons on both sides of the controversy. The article appears in the column, "The Nation's Business", and it is headed, "Make Our Ideas Earn Our Keep". I have tried to do that all my life, Mr. Speaker, and have always been successful. The article reads in part as follows:
Top Ottawa scientists, including such able and distinguished men as president E. W. R. Steacie of the national research council, charge that Canadian businessmen are unalert to, and largely unaware of, the value of scientific research. They say Canadian industry is neither bold nor imaginative about developing new, money-making processes and products created by N.R.C. scientists.
They strike out particularly at "lack of initiative" among Canadian subsidiaries of U.S. companies.
This is an indictment of some gravity. It comes from men who spend over $30 million annually of the taxpayers' money to keep Canada abreast of scientific innovation in this fast-moving world.
These criticisms, as might be expected, have brought heated protests and countercharges of "prevarication and fabrication" from businessmen.

It is interesting to note, Mr. Speaker, that there are persons who use rather strong language outside of this house as well as in it.
There is little point in declaring either the scientists or the businessmen wholly right.
But there are some hard facts to consider.
Canada allots only 1 per cent of G.N.P. to research and development v. the 2\ per cent spent by the U.S.-yet we try to live and prosper like Americans. Less than one third of the Canadian research spending is done by business, the rest by governments. The greatest part of all privately sponsored research, 70 per cent, is done by the really big companies only-those with annual sales of more than $50 million.
It is true that Canada has often taken the easy way out and let the U.S. do much of its research for it-and Canada has benefited. It is also plain that the relatively small Canadian market simply isn't big enough to make every top idea which national research council comes up with worth developing, if business even knows about it.
This editorial goes on, and I am quoting it at length because I think it is very well written and informative.
Twenty six Chances at Success
It is a known fact that for every national research council invention developed and sold by a Canadian company, another invention has been turned down in Canada only to be licensed abroad, produced abroad, and imported into Canada from abroad.
I want to insert at that point, Mr. Speaker, the remark that this is after the Canadian taxpayer has paid for the research that produced the invention.
But neither business nor the scientists will make yards for Canada by shouting about the past. Let's, instead, see what can be done about improving communication between science and industry. This cannot be achieved by industry having only its own scientists keep in touch with national research council. It takes an industrialist to transform a feasible idea into a marketable product.
That is very well said.
If industry is more prepared to examine the potentials in national research council work, then national research council has some responsibility for keeping industry informed and enthusiastic about its projects.
More immediately, let's see what can be done about the 26 new patents on the national research council list which the scientists say are immediately feasible for Canadian development. That is where the profit in this controversy lies.
In that connection, Mr. Speaker, the various persons concerned have comments to make. There is an article here by Mr. Terence Robertson which is headed, "Our Patents Going Abroad: Research Storm Blowing Up". I have noticed that the articles by Mr. Terence Robertson are usually exactly written; they are not written for sensation. Anyone who has followed his articles must have noticed that he must do a great deal of research himself because his figures and his facts are accurate. He says:
There's a big debate brewing in Canada. Does Canadian industry make full use of discoveries by Canadian scientists?
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Some scientists this week boldly charged that industry fails to develop the results of government-sponsored research-[DOT]
Then, later in the article, he says:
Industry leaders retorted heatedly to the charges. They blame the scientists-particularly those of the government's national research council-for failing to tell industry what they are doing. Industry leaders also insist that scientists don't understand marketing problems, or the kind of sales potential needed to justify development.
Then the various persons give various illustrations of inventions that have been produced and what has happened to them. They are being sold abroad, and so on. Then, after the charges made by industry, various members of the national research council reply. Dr. Steacie says, and I quote:
Although there are encouraging signs of increasing enthusiasm on the part of industry, I must admit that on the whole they don't show much interest-certainly not as much as we would like.
Then Dr. Mackenzie, who I might mention is very well known and a member of a famous Canadian battalion, the 54th Kootenay battalion-I cannot lose an opportunity to mention that fact-has this to say:
I blame Canadian industrialists for being unalert to the opportunities presented by the work of the national research council and other government scientific departments.
The various representatives of industry and the national research council present their views concerning both sides of this question.
I believe it is a good idea to have this debate because it brings to the attention of members certain facts. I am sure most members of this house were unaware, as were the people of the country, of many of these facts. I suggest that in addition to the proposed routine examination which the committee will undertake of the policy, operation and expenditures of the national research council and these other organizations, in the light of this article and the difference of opinion that exists there should be a most detailed inquiry into the situation and the senior staff of the national research council as well as the leading industrialists should be asked to come before the committee to give their views. I think it is very necessary that we secure the facts so that, as a result of that inquiry and the discussions that will revolve around it, we can do as suggested in the editorial, remedy the situation as soon as possible.
Before concluding, Mr. Speaker, 1 want to make one other suggestion. I feel that the value and scope of the work of the national research council and these other organizations is insufficiently known to many Canadians. I have often talked to people about this question and I find they are unaware of the work of the national research council,

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the provincial research councils and the research that goes on in universities. I do feel that the national research council could perform a great service if it established a public relations department so that Canadians generally would be informed of the work carried out by this organization under the sponsorship of the parliament of Canada. The students in universities, and even in the high schools, could be kept informed so that they would have some idea of what is being done in this field, especially as it related to the development of our economy. I believe that in so far as the high schools are concerned, it could be related to the local circumstances of the community in which the high school is situated.
I find particularly that certain sections of smaller industries are very ill-informed as to the value of the work of the national research council and these other organizations as it relates to developments in their own industries. I suggest, therefore, that the council would be well advised to have a public relations department to improve its public relations, to disseminate more information as to its activities generally. The scientific reports that are made are excellent for the people who use them, but I am thinking of publicity that would just inform the public of Canada generally as to the work of the council and these other organizations. Some of this information could be provided by means of pamphlets. I think, too, the council could secure the co-operation of the press and some national magazines if there were some procedure worked out whereby these reports would be given under a certain heading in these publications, a heading such as, "What Research Is Doing for You". I am thinking of something in the popular style used by the magazine Popular Mechanics. I have seen excellent work done by organizations of this sort, which are largely unheard from so far as the Canadian public is concerned and whose achievements are unsung and untold in many quarters.
Before concluding I suggest that is one thing that should be done in order to get a wider recognition of the value and scope of the work that is being undertaken-I refer to its value not only to our times but to the young generations that are growing up- in the development and the improvement of our country.


Mr. G. J. Mcllraiih (Ottawa West):: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support this motion to set up this special committee to examine into the operations of the national research council and Atomic Energy of Canada Limited. Hon. members will perhaps appreciate the fact that these days I do not always rise to
[Mr. Herridge.j
support something brought forward by the government. As a matter of fact, I have occasion to differ sharply with them on most of the things they bring forward. However, today I wish to commend the minister for bringing forward at a relatively early stage of the session this motion to set up this committee.
I regard the motion as merely a continuation of the authority granted last year to a committee to examine into this subject, and I believe that is the way in which the minister intended it to be taken. The committee was set up last year with the same terms of reference but regrettably it was rather late in the session when it was set up and there was not an opportunity for it to do the work it had hoped to do. It was obliged to forgo almost completely the opportunity of examining into atomic energy matters.
The history of these committees is rather interesting to me. In 1949 for the first time a committee was created to examine into the operations of the atomic energy control board. It will be recalled that at that time there was a great deal of reason for security in the committee's examination. However, there was no practical difficulty in the workings of the committee. Indeed, on that occasion I think the house looked on this as a nonpartisan matter. It is interesting to note, as I had recalled to my memory only a few moments ago when I turned up that reference in the library, the first speaker on the opposition side on that occasion made it quite clear that he was supporting the motion and gave his reasons. That spirit has been continued throughout these committees and I hope my remarks today will be in keeping with that spirit.
Then in 1950, the next year, a committee was created to examine into the operations of the national research council. Then in 1953 a special committee was appointed to examine into the operations of both. Then in 1956 a similar committee was appointed. I am sorry to say that I may have mislead the house. The committee in 1953 examined into the operations of the government in the field of atomic energy. The course of proceeding up to that time had been to refer to the committee one subject or another, namely the national research council or the atomic energy subject. Then in 1956 a special committee was set up to examine into the role of the government in the field of non-military research and specific reference was made to both the atomic energy field and the national research council. The reference last year followed that practice of combining both subjects as does the one this year. I do not know that it matters a great deal which method is used. A great deal of work

is indicated. It is not too important which method is used but a great deal of work is required in order to cover both subjects in one session.
The committee members were kind enough in the first four committees I have mentioned to appoint me chairman. I think I can say that in my experience as a member of the House of Commons I have not sat on any committee in which closer co-operation was granted to the chairman by the members of the committee than was granted in those four committees.
I hope the chairman of the committee last year could say the same thing if he were here today. Certainly for my part, as a member of the committee I felt that the chairman conducted the proceedings of the committee in a way that was wholly agreeable to all hon. members sitting on that committee. Every opportunity was given to the members of the committee to examine into the subject matter as thoroughly as they wished. The feeling of fairness and the spirit of co-operation among committee members were most satisfactory. Within the limited time at its disposal the committee was able to accomplish a good deal of work. However, regrettably, the time was much too limited having regard to the scope of the subject matter referred to it.
The committee last year dealt a great deal with the national research council. Before leaving that aspect of the subject I want to place on record what I regard as an extremely significant fact, namely the high calibre of persons who have been chosen under succeeding governments to head the national research council from its inception. This is a fortunate thing for this whole enterprise. I think the high achievement they have been able to record has been due in large measure to that fact.
There is another subject that is very much in my mind, namely the relation of the national research council to industry. I feel that the work of the national research council must be kept well balanced as between research in pure science and research in applied science. I believe the balance between those two matters must be maintained. I hope that at no time will the research council be forced into a position in which an abnormally large percentage of its work will be directed to the field of applied science. I believe that is a field that must be occupied partially by them but largely occupied by industry and outside agencies.
In that connection may I say this. I hold the view that the government must reexamine the matter of corporation taxes or taxes applied to industries in this country in order to ascertain whether we should go
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further in making tax adjustments for research. In my view we must make appropriate tax adjustments for the work of industry in the scientific and research field.


Mr. Speaker:: Is the hon. member about to conclude his remarks?


George James McIlraith: I hope to conclude my remarks in about one minute, Mr. Speaker.


Gordon Minto Churchill: We might go on for two or three minutes.


Mr. Speaker:: If it is only a matter of a minute or two more, perhaps the house will agree.


George James McIlraith: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. That is a subject that probably can be discussed more appropriately when we are dealing with the budget and the estimates rather than on the motion to set up the committee.
Then there is to be considered the field of atomic energy. We are at a critical stage of its development. I look forward with eagerness to examining into the exact state of the development in relation to the production of power-I refer to the use of nuclear energy for the production of power-and its relationship to industry. If we can develop an additional economically feasible source of power in this country at this time it will do much to strengthen our whole economy over the years ahead. I am looking forward to that opportunity of examining the subject. It may well be that we are at the stage at which we may be obliged again to adjust some of our taxation policies in order to take cognizance of the new developments in that field and of the rapidity with which they have come about.
Without further remax-ks, Mr. Speaker, I want to express my approval of this motion to set up the committee.


Mr. Speaker:: Is the house ready for the question?


John Whitney Pickersgill: No, Mr. Speaker; it is six o'clock.
At six o'clock the house took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The house resumed at 8 p.m.
Mr. C. R. Granger (Grand Falls-White Bay-Labrador):: I rise to support the resolution. I doubt whether the value of research as such to the progress associated with modern living is appreciated, at least consciously, to the extent that it should be or to the extent that it merits. Therefore I should like to begin by paying a tribute to those who spend their lives

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in studious research in connection with the gathering of knowledge and whose unspectacular work has made possible the spectacular progress associated with this age.
In most phases of human endeavour the hallmark of the twentieth century has been progress and this is true particularly in the scientific field, in transportation, in medicine, in the production of food and in many other directions. It is to the production of food that I should particularly like to refer and I wish to deal with one foodstuff especially, that is, fish.
My interest is, of course, obvious. In the riding which I have the honour to represent many of the people are fishermen, and the waters off the coast of Labrador and northern Newfoundland are very rich in fish. The question naturally arises: are these resources being utilized to the best possible extent, and is modern technology being applied to the production and processing of fish? I should like to point out that the fisheries of the Atlantic provinces are important not only to the Atlantic provinces themselves but to the whole of Canada. I should like to raise the question whether these fisheries can be augmented so that the whole of the Canadian economy might be strengthened.
Closely allied with this object is the question of research. Lest I should give the impression that research has been neglected, I hasten to say that such is not the case. Over the years much work has been done with regard to fisheries research. A lot of time and money has been expended, and able men have made and are making a study of fish their life's work. It goes without saying that for these dedicated scientists and technicians all of us have a great deal of respect and a great deal of appreciation. We appreciate what they are doing and what they are trying to do. I should like to point out the need for an extension and an enlargement of the research work being done in this field. My personal opinion is that the job these men are trying to do is made more difficult by the lack of the necessary funds and the necessary help.
A great deal of information has been gained already, but the field is wide and the possibilities are many. More and more knowledge is needed on which to base an expansion of the industry, and the search for knowledge is one which must go on continuously and unrelentingly. 1 might mention a few of the subjects about which more information is required. There is, for instance, the movement and behaviour of herrings; the need for knowledge to enable us to predict where they can be found. Then again, why does the cod, the basic bread and butter fish of the Atlantic waters, sometimes disappear from the areas where it is usually found? This happens
[Mr. Granger.!
periodically, and it happened last year. Codfish practically disappeared from whole sections of the coast. There must be a reason for this, and there must be some way of predicting in advance whether or not such a phenomenon is likely to occur, I might add, when it does occur it means well nigh tragedy to the people involved. This year there is a lot of arctic ice off the coast and it has been suggested that in consequence the fishing will be good. Is there, in fact, a relationship? This is something which might be looked into.
The means of increasing production are important. Obviously it would be ideal if the catch per man could be increased and if at the same time the value of the catch could be increased. I shall not, of course, discuss the economic side of the question but I should like to point out the need for research into the whole fishing question.
There is one matter which I raised before in this house, the great need for artificial bait. Every year many thousand quintals of fish are left uncaught because fishing communities are short of bait. I believe that this factor alone would warrant intensive research into the development of artificial bait which could supplement the bait that is usually used.
There is the matter of improvements in cold storage facilities with a view to making better, cheaper and lighter units. There is also the falling off of the salmon fishery and the need for research into the reasons why this has occurred and the possibilities of improving and increasing the number of streams where salmon may breed.
In addition there is the matter of research into the mechanics of fishing and the processing of fish. Important steps have already been taken in this field. I think of mechanical aids for the splitting, filleting and drying of fish but too large a segment of the industry still depends on primitive methods which are really out of place in our modern day economy and in the highly competitive fields in which both the fishermen and the trade have to operate.
These problems are not new and have already been given considerable attention but I should like at this time to emphasize the need for giving these matters even more attention and I urge that these problems be treated with greater urgency.
The need for developing the north has already been mentioned by several hon. members as has the subject of the possibilities which long range power transmission open up for the north. If the resources of the 6 million or more horsepower on the Hamilton river were made available a large part of Canada and perhaps areas outside would benefit greatly.

In a nation such as ours with an expanding population, holding our own is not enough. Holding our own is merely inviting disaster. It is almost a matter of life and death for us to keep ahead technologically of the rest of the competition. We must advance ahead of the times. The only way to do this is to devote more time and money to patient and dedicated efforts in the field of research.


Mr. J. J. Martel (Chapleau):: Mr. Speaker, before this motion is carried I should like to make a few brief remarks on the question of forming a committee to look into the operation, expenditures and policies of the national research council, Atomic Energy of Canada Limited and Eldorado Mining and Refining Limited. In making these remarks I want only to emphasize the growing need we have for increased research in this atomic age. I should like to mention a few fields where more research might result in the development of certain new industries in our country in general and in my own district in particular.
I know of the wonderful job that has been done in recent years by the national research council as was pointed out by previous speakers this afternoon and evening. I know, too, the council has a significant contribution to make in the years ahead. By way of example I should like to mention the fact that research into the peaceful purposes of uranium could be very important for our country and the future of our uranium industry.
Not long ago, if my memory serves me right, we were informed in this house about the important development that had taken place in respect of alloys developed for steel which would require the use of uranium or radioactive material. This is one example which indicates the importance of research in a new field. We are in a new atomic age and I think it is worth while that the government assumes the responsibility through the work of the national research council of developing means of assistance for our new metal industries such as uranium.
There are also other metals that have been found in abundant quantity in Canada in recent years in respect of which research could play a very important role in terms of the future development of these deposits. We know, for instance, that in Canada we have on the north shores of the St. Lawrence the world's largest deposits of ilmenite which contains titanium and which is in increasing demand for the construction of jet motors and other things. We also have large deposits of columbium and tantalum. One is near North Bay and the other of
Research Committee
which I am thinking is near Montreal at Oka. Columbium and tantalum have been known for many years but their use is relatively new and it will increase in years to come. Research will play a vital role in determining increased uses for these metals.
I now want to briefly mention a new metal about which we have heard with increasing frequency in recent times. One is always tempted to say a "new" metal, but of course these metals have been known for many years and have come into use only recently.
I refer to lithium. Large deposits have been found in northern Manitoba, northern Ontario, and particularly in my district in northern Quebec where it is believed the largest known lithium deposit has been located. As a matter of fact this resulted a few years ago in the building of the first lithium mine by Quebec Lithium Corporation.
To illustrate the importance of research in that particular case, let me say that the mine was hoping to start production and had a contract with an important United States firm but they were not too sure what process they should use. Up to that time the process used was what we call a dry process method which had been used in the United States. Apparently that was the one that was most advantageous. Quebec Lithium Corporation, however, decided to look into the problem, had its metallurgists study the situation and through the co-operation of the Quebec department of mines laboratories succeeded in developing a new process. They used a commonly known method which was not previously believed suitable for the extraction of lithium ore. They used a wet process well known throughout the mining industry but adapted it in this case after careful research to enable the flotation of the spodu-mene crystals in order to make a concentrate of lithium that could be sent to those industries which require this metal. We hope the demand will increase in years to come.
I might say the company is controlled by two mines, East Sullivan and Sullivan Mines, which in turn are headed by a well-known French Canadian. I might say this is almost an exception. He is one of the few French Canadians who have succeeded in the mining industry and built up a mining empire of that kind. I am referring to Mr. Pierre Beauchemin. I pay tribute to him. It might be thought that this gentleman had done enough. Instead of retiring he kept right on and now the company in question has built a refinery which is the first lithium refinery not only in the province of Quebec but in Canada. This group is very aggressive in trying to find new methods and new

Research Committee
processes for the extraction of lithium metal, a relatively new metal so far as use is concerned.
I feel the national research council would do well if it could enlarge the use of lithium in the years to come by intensive research. The research program could also be extended into other metals such as molybdenite. Research programs should be intensified to find new uses for the metal. This research program should be conducted into the use of all of our base metals, and it should be intensified in co-operation with private companies and industrialists. If new uses were found for these base metals it would increase their sale, since they are produced in large quantities in our country.
This afternoon the hon. member for Kootenay West (Mr. Herridge) suggested that the national research council would do well to have public relations men to publicize their work to the industries and to the public in general. I think it is a wonderful idea. I think the suggestion should be adopted, but I would go even further. I suggest that the public relations men of the national research council should intensify their co-operation with industry and thereby bring about new processes for the use of different materials in the country. This would be beneficial to industry and to the people of the country.
I wish to read a few headlines which appeared in the Wall Street Journal in reference to different new problems which have arisen in recent years as a result of the development of the atomic age. One headline reads:
Hydrogen age sets challenge for chemicals.
Another one is as follows:
Nuclear energy developments to spur new prospects for chemical energy.
A third reads:
Revolution in textile manufacture.
Further down the page we have another headline which has to do with an important industry in our country. It reads as follows:
Pulp and paper industry shows marked growth.
I recall that I was a member of the committee on mines, forests and waters in 1959. This matter came up when we made a careful study of our forest resources. At that time we had witnesses from different companies who mentioned that their companies were doing much research in developing new uses for different products and finding new markets for them. I should like to emphasize the fact that more co-operation should take place between the national research council on the one hand and companies across Canada on the other which are doing their own research.

Industrialists should be encouraged to do research in different ways, either through collaboration directly with the national research council or in other ways. In that way research programs could be stimulated all across Canada.
Before I resume my seat I should like to emphasize the fact that lithium ores are found abundantly in northern Quebec. As I mentioned before, the deposits there are believed to be the largest in the world. There are also large deposits in northern Ontario and in northern Manitoba. I believe that this metal will become the fuel of the future for jet planes. Experiments are being carried out to that end. I hold in my hand a research magazine which has a very detailed article in that regard. I will not read it because it would take too long. Borax and lithium mixed together have been used, and in time they will revolutionize the fuel used in the airplanes of the future.
(Translation):


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I wish to commend the hon. member for Chapleau (Mr. Martel) for his speech delivered in tip-top English, following an excellent example set in this house.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.
(Text):


Douglas Mason Fisher: Research is such an O.K. word right now that to come along with any strictures and warnings is sort of like being a pagan among the vestal virgins, but I have the feeling that we have rather gone overboard for the magic of the word "research" in the last couple of years. I was at a parliamentary committee a couple of years ago that went very strongly for research. Now we have the new Department of Forestry, Mr. Speaker, that is primarily to be concerned with research, and where-ever I go in the forestry circles and talk to woods managers and people in the business I find that they are a little bit frightened of the word "research". They do not mind basic research in their fields, but they are very much interested in what research has been done since the war which has some kind of practical pay-off.
I realize there is a split between applied research and basic research, and it seems to me the national research council in particular does a magnificent job in basic research. I often wonder whether the success they have is in that particular field which spills over to a degree into the applied research that they have, for example, in the field of snow and ice mechanics and whether there may not be a lesson there for the other departments of government such as forestry, mines and technical surveys that they might profit from.

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration
It seems to me the basic reason why the national research council is probably more effective in research than the ordinary government department is that the scientists there are not civil servants; they do not have the strait-jacket of the civil service arrangement. It may be that the national research council is extremely good because there is a flexibility and an income and outgo of all scientists from all over the world on a continuing, regular basis in their establishment, and so they have a plastic, wide open kind of organization where there is a considerable amount of discussion and cross fertilization with other parts of the world.
My own impression of the forestry research, for example, that is going on in this country under the federal department is that to quite an extent it is divorced from the over-all research that is taking place in the world of forestry. I think the committee might very well consider looking at the research programs of some of the government departments with an eye to seeing if the national research council could not be an example to them.
The last point I want to make relates to a story that was told me by a scientist in Ottawa. He said, "You know, over the years members of parliament become curious about research programs and critical of the money being spent on research." He said, "You can always stop them quickly; all you have to do is to get a bunch of members of parliament into a party and take them off to Chalk River or some other place with big laboratory facilities, let them be impressed with a bunch of dials, gadgets and counters that they do not understand, let them meet a few men in white smocks and they all come away saying it is a marvelous place, these scientists are wonderful people who are doing a great job, and in the end their curiosity dies down." The point of the story is that apparently this is a way that scientists can take baying parliamentarians off the track. I think there is a great deal to this.


Gordon Minto Churchill: That is hardly fair to the scientists. Perhaps the hon. member is speaking in a jocular vein but I wonder whether that is quite fair to the scientists who are charged with responsibility for our national research.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I do not know whether it is quite fair to the scientists but I think it is certainly fair to the members of parliament. This is the point I should like to make about the committee and its work and I may say I discussed it with the chairman of the committee last year and he felt very strongly about it. It is almost impossible for a member of parliament to make a real contribution to the work of this committee unless he is
prepared to spend a great deal of time studying the whole research field, not so much from the point of view of becoming an expert in any sense in one field but in order to understand the problems of research as a whole. I would commend to all members of this committee the kind of study, shall I say, that the hon. member for Essex East (Mr. Martin) has given to agriculture and soybeans in his specialization-


Paul Joseph James Martin: I cannot do everything.


Douglas Mason Fisher: -although I might be thought flippant if I brought him into this field.


Mr. Marlin (Essex Easl):: My time is limited.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I might suggest the wonderful study that the hon. member for York-Scar-borough (Mr. McGee) has made in the development of efficient commuter trains to serve certain sections around Toronto. The point is that the members of the committee can only do a good job in examining the research establishment of the government if they spend a considerable time in study, perhaps an inordinate amount compared with that required for other committees. I know that one reason I never tried to be made a member of a committee was that I considered it was a little bit too much work.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
The house in committee of supply, Mr. Rea in the chair.

[Stage Direction]
Citizenship-
49. Citizenship branch, $808,322.
John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, the hon. lady will no doubt recall that last year I expressed some misgivings about some of the expenditures under this item and even went the length of suggesting that consideration should be given to the consolidation of this branch and the citizenship registration branch. The hon. lady will also remember that I had something to say about some of the publications of the Canadian citizenship branch and in particular the magazine Citizen which is still being published.
I have not looked up the record and I may be wrong but if I remember rightly the hon. lady said there was a considerable demand for this magazine and I asked if there was an effective demand in the economic sense, in other words, whether enough people in the country were willing to buy this magazine at a price which would pay for the cost of producing it. I have looked through the most recent number and while I certainly do not

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration take exception to anything in it I would think that if we are going to spend money on publications at all there are other publications in this country on which it might be spent, even perhaps by giving financial assistance to magazines of more general interest, which would perhaps do more to promote real Canadian citizenship than the maintenance of "kept" journals of this description.
I know it is very easy to ask me what I did about this when I was minister and I admit that the answer to that question is a very short one, that I expressed misgivings and did very little else. I felt at that time, when we were having immigration on such a very large scale, that I should give my primary attention, which I did, to the immigration branch and also to the Indian affairs branch. But I did feel that a good deal too much of the money of this branch and of the time of the members of the branch were taken up with activities which, however praiseworthy they might be, would in my book not rate very high on the list of priorities for the expenditure of public money.
As a result of the establishment of citizenship courts in those areas of the country where the largest concentrations of recent immigrants exist, it does seem to me there is even greater reason for considreing carefully and, indeed, taking action on the suggestion I made last year that these two branches should be consolidated. I do think there is a place for liaison officers who would perhaps be a little like the pensions advocates on the board of pension commissioners and who would help immigrants with their difficulties before the court, in preparing for the court and other matters of that sort. However, I think this whole activity ought to be tied much more closely than it is to the actual potential citizens and not be so diffuse and general as it is.
I admit that in the light of all the estimates the amount involved is not very great but that can be said, of course, of a great many other expenditures. My own feeling is that when all is said and done an expenditure of $800,000 is still quite a lot of money and that perhaps some of that could be saved. I am not suggesting that the officials should be dispensed with or anything of that sort. I think there are other useful things that have to be and could be done.
However, this is probably one of those areas which will be examined by the Glassco commission when it gets around to it. Perhaps as a former minister, having expressed these rather vague misgivings, I would be well advised not to go any farther at this time. I want to make it very clear that I am not reflecting in any way on the members of the staff. I am not reflecting on anyone. I am
[Mr. Pickersgill.l
just questioning in my own mind whether, in view of the many demands on the taxpayers' dollar, some of the things that are done in this branch are really high enough in priority to warrant the expenditure.
There is one other thing I should like to mention. So far as the language classes are concerned, they warrant spending everything on them that can be spent profitably from the point of view of reducing the period in which newcomers to Canada suffer from the disability of not being able to speak one or the other of the official languages. In this connection, when the hon. lady replies later, I would be interested to know whether she has now been able to establish any better relations with the authorities in the province of Quebec or whether she has made any attempt to establish any better relations with the authorities in the province of Quebec, with a view to having closer co-operation in the language classes than it was possible to get at an earlier time. I know nothing about this. It is just a query. I have felt for a long time that more would be desirable there if it could be accomplished. There is no question whatever that the department, wherever it could avail itself of the ordinary adult education facilities that exist in a province, has always sought to do so and I would hope would continue to do so.
There is one other question of this character that I should like also to put to the hon. lady. There were several experiments conducted in the teaching of languages. I think we would all be interested to know what success there had been with some of the research in which the department was interested a year or two ago. I may have asked that question last year. I think I did. If I did, and there is nothing new to be said about it I do not want to take up the time of the committee.
There is one other thing that I should like to say before I sit down. I think we all realize that one of the most important elements in the satisfactory integration of newcomers into our society is that there should be a sympathetic attitude toward these newcomers on the part of the rest of us who are here. This is one of the things this branch of the department has sought to promote through voluntary organizations of all kinds. I would not suggest for a moment that I would like to see that kind of activity discouraged; far from it. However, I have some doubts, myself, about whether the attempts that have been made-some of them of course have been exceedingly well meaning-to use the facilities of the branch for the purpose of promoting closer relationships between the two groups of older Canadians are really perhaps as badly needed as some

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration
of these other activities are. I think that is something that is really looking after itself rather well at the moment.
I said a moment ago, and I want to repeat, that a sympathetic, reasonable and honest attitude and a respect for the facts is very important if we are to have a proper integration of the newcomers, a proper understanding of the relationship between recent immigrants to this country and those who have been longer in the country. I cannot help but think that one of the best ways to promote that would be to have a really intimate relationship between the courts and the liaison officers of this branch, to the point where they really are a single organization.


Mr. McGee:: Mr. Chairman, before embarking on a sort of hatchet job on what the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate had to say earlier, I should like to concur in everything he had to say about the importance of a sympathetic, reasonable and honest attitude, as he described it, on the part of those of us who are already here toward those who have come here recently and will come in the future. I think perhaps this attitude is very appropriate at this particular time of the year since brotherhood week is almost upon us. Speakers right across this country will be reminding the participants in these brotherhood week activities and those who attend the brotherhood banquets of the absolutely vital necessity of emphasizing this particular aspect.
I have not had as much opportunity as I would like to have had to examine some of the documents that are put in the hands of new Canadians, such as the one to which the hon. member referred. Certainly I would be unhappy if some of the prouder aspects of our history in this realm were not mentioned there. I am thinking particularly of a reference to Ezekiel Hart and the well known story of that early example of tolerance and understanding on the part of the French Canadian citizens of Three Rivers. If this story and others like it are not contained in these pamphlets outlining and underlining our proud and successful history in this regard, I would be very much disappointed.
I should like to return now to the remarks made by the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate. Before I came to the House of Commons I heard a lot about the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate and some of the difficulties he had encountered. Of course, I read and heard a great deal about the various activities of the cabinet of that day. The impression I gained, and apparently it was shared by a large number of Canadians
in 1957, was of fumbling and bumbling and perhaps not coming to grips with some of the issues that had to be met.
I should like to describe in his own words, as he described to us a few minutes ago but from a slightly different approach, his attitude to the department. He said he had misgivings; he had his doubts about this particular branch. What did he do? Apparently he did not do anything except indulge in these misgivings and doubts. He went on to say that we must not dismiss anybody. We should not misunderstand; let us not spend any less money. He was not criticizing anyone in particular in the department. He went on to point out that $800,000 is a lot of money, an important amount of money. Having said all that, giving his background and offering this great experience he had in the department to the present minister, the Glassco commission or anybody else who was interested, he then embarked upon the advocacy of another measure which involved the expenditure of additional money.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Oh, no.


Frank Charles McGee: The hon. member says, no. I would remind him that just a short time ago he was advocating the expenditure of an extra sum of money on language classes. The hon. member shakes his head. I think Hansard will bear out the validity of what I have said.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Spend existing money on it.


Frank Charles McGee: I have gained a greater understanding of some of the reasons why the hon. member used to encounter some difficulties when he was a minister. This was his typical obvious pattern of doing nothing, having doubts, not criticizing anybody, not firing anybody and ending up by advocating additional expenditures. It is no wonder that he encountered difficulties.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I should like to correct the hon. gentleman. I think he has made a good point. However, I did not in fact, suggest spending any more money. I suggested that some of the money now being spent would be better spent on lanugage courses.


The Deputy Chairman:: Shall vote 49 carry?


John Whitney Pickersgill: No, Mr. Chairman. I think the hon. lady wishes to speak.


Mrs. Fairclough:: I think I might give out a little information on the basis of the questions asked and the comments made by the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate. In so far as the organization of the department is concerned, of course that is one of the matters that is under active consideration at the

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration present time in line with the investigation being made by the Glassco commission. With regard to his comment on the language classes I might tell him that about 50 per cent of our expenditures go to the language classes and we think we are making progress. I cannot tell him what the result is of the research that went into the matter of teaching and texts. We received copies of the new textbooks from the authors only last fall. This is the first year in which they are being used. We shall have to assess their value at the end of this year.
With respect to teaching French in Quebec may I say this. My hon. friend will recall that the other night I said we expect to open the first of such courses in Montreal in the latter part of February and, depending upon the success we encounter there, we hope to proceed to open other classes.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Are these classes given by the department or by provincial or local authorities?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: They are sponsored
classes. I think I have covered most of the questions which were asked except with regard to the publication of Citizen. I might say that this year for the first time we have a sizable subscription list. About 25 per cent of the copies issued are now being subscribed for at an appropriate fee. We hope the subscription list will increase to the point that it will possibly pay for itself eventually.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I do not want to take up any time if someone else wants to speak first, Mr. Chairman. However, there is one rather less pleasant matter about which I want to say a word merely for the record. It is not in criticism of the hon. lady or of the department.
I said earlier that I felt that the business of integrating newcomers in Canada depended to a great extent on a proper understanding and a proper appreciation of the facts of the situation. I am going to draw to the attention of the committee a statement made by a minister of the crown as reported in the Niagara Falls Review of October 27, 1960. I do not think it contributes much to this kind of understanding, concord and harmony that I would have hoped every member of parliament would wish to have in this field. I refer to a report in that newspaper of a speech made by the hon. member for Bellechasse- and I regret very much that he is once more not in the house-the Secretary of State, in another by-election in which he was as successful as he was in the one in Labelle. This quotation from the Niagara Falls Review for October 27, 1960 is in quotation marks.

I intend to read just the quotation itself and then to make one or two observations on its content.
I have before me-
This in quotation marks.
-figures from the Post of November 9th, 1956, which show that under the Liberal government of that era Canada had a total of 292,000 unemployed despite a lot of surplus money. That same year machinery was set up that Canada was the victim of mass immigration with 280,000 immigrants reaching these shores in 1957.
Then the report continues in quotation marks.
"We inherited a Liberal policy in this regard and the Progressive Conservative government has been taking steps to correct it ever since. For their mass immigration policy," continued the Secretary of State, "we have instituted a selective immigration program which drastically reduced the number of immigrants to less than half that figure in 1958. That year only 124,581 immigrants were allowed into this country and that was chopped by 20,000 in 1959. Under this selective policy only those immigrants who can be absorbed into our economic set-up are allowed."
There are one or two comments I want to make about those statements which were made by the Secretary of State and which appear in quotation marks in this report. In the first place, I assume that by the Post the hon. gentleman meant the Financial Post. I do not know of any other newspaper called the Post that would be apt to have these figures. I therefore went to the library this afternoon and I looked up or tried to look up the Financial Post for November 9, 1956. I find there is no such thing. The Financial Post in 1956 appeared not on November 9, but on November 10. However, thinking this might be just a mistake in the day, I looked at the microfilm of every page of that newspaper and nowhere could I find any reference whatsoever to unemployment.
I then looked up the official figures of unemployment put out by the dominion bureau of statistics for the month of November, 1956. I have them here in my hand at the moment. The D.B.S. figure from the labor force survey for persons without jobs and seeking work on November 12, 1956, was 135,000. That is a long way from 292,000. However, a year later, on November 16, 1957, five months after the government opposite came into office, I find that the figure was 292,000. At the time about which the hon. member was speaking, namely the autumn of 1956, at the time the decision was made to admit the Hungarian refugees to Canada, there were 135,000 persons without jobs and seeking work according to the D.B.S. figures. As everyone recognizes, for the month of November that figure is just about the equivalent of full employment. It seems to me that this fact ought not to be misrepresented

by a minister of the crown. Moreover, a minister of the crown describes the admission to this country of Hungarian refugees in these terms:
That same year machinery was set up that Canada was the victim of mass immigration with 280,000 immigrants reaching these shores in 1957.
I am sure that the hon. lady would not like to be associated with that kind of description of the policy of admitting Hungarian refugees which the present government, as I have always been happy to give them credit for doing, carried right on after they came into office as long as the need was there. I give them full credit for that action. However, it seems to me that it is not right for any member of this government, even though he was not in the government or was not associated with it at that time, to say that Canada was the victim of this mass immigration, when one thinks of the plight of these people and when one thinks of what they were trying to do that caused them to be in that plight, that these people were fighting to free themselves from a communist regime. Yet the Secretary of State chooses to describe them in that fashion.
I think that is entirely unworthy of any member of this house and particularly of a minister of the crown in the government of a Prime Minister who in 1957, in this same area, in St. Catharines I think it was only a few miles from Niagara Falls, said he would triple the immigration the Liberals had developed at that time. I am also struck by this extraordinary sentence: "Under this selective policy-" that was chopped down, to use the unattractive verb employed by the Secretary of State. I quote again:
Under this selective policy only those who can be absorbed into our economic set-up are allowed to enter.


J.-H.-Théogène Ricard: Would the hon. member permit a question?


John Whitney Pickersgill: When I have finished.


J.-H.-Théogène Ricard: Was that speech made in French or in English?


John Whitney Pickersgill: I point out that when the Hungarian immigration started there were 135,000 people without jobs and seeking work, and when the hon. gentleman was talking last October about only those immigrants being admitted who could be absorbed half a million Canadians were out of work. How he reconciles that sort of thing with this kind of statement is something I would prefer to leave with hon. ladies and gentlemen on the other side of the house.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I have no comment to make on the charges which have been levelled against one of my colleagues by the
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration hon. gentleman who represents Bonavista-Twillingate, because I have never seen the alleged statement in print nor have I had the opportunity to assess its significance, but when it comes to the question of the Hungarian influx, if it might be called that, may I say that I was in this house at the time and I recall the situation quite well. I am sure that in all fairness the hon. member will be glad to admit that there was not one dissenting voice from any side of the house concerning the proposal that this scheme be put into effect.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I quite agree with the hon. lady and I thought I made that clear in my remarks, but if I did not make it abundantly clear then I want to make it clear now. There was the most complete support from the official opposition and, indeed, I think from everywhere else in the house. I recall no opposition in the house to that policy and I was always proud of the fact that it seemed to me all Canadians had responded in a wonderful way to a challenge which I regarded as a challenge to the whole free world.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
50. Grants to organizations as detailed in the estimates, $40,000.
Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I see this vote comprises a grant of $15,000 to the Canadian general council of the boy scouts association, $15,000 to the Canadian council of the girl guides association and $10,000 to the boy's clubs of Canada.
While these are really only token grants toward these organizations, we are, at least, very pleased to see them continue. I think the work which these organizations are doing at the present time is, if possible, more important than ever. I intended to have some further remarks to say but I will simply suggest that consideration be given to increasing these grants if at all possible. I know it is easy enough to get up in the committee and suggest that grants be increased, and I know the difficult situation which exists today, but I do think that these are three organizations which we should do everything we properly can to assist, particularly in view of the challenge they are meeting today in providing these services to the boys and girls of Canada.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
47. Departmental administration, $1,001,840.
Douglas Mason Fisher: I was not here, and perhaps I should have been, in order to raise a couple of questions relating to immigration. I do not know whether the minister has answered these. I am not going to give any general talk on immigration or make any general

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration contribution to the debate, but I should like to ask the hon. lady some questions regarding immigration from Italy and some details of the backlog of applications that are now in hand. That is the first question. The second one is how the department is adjusting to this increasing backlog in order to take care of it administratively and, third, whether the minister can give us any indication how long the backlog is likely to exist at the present rate at which people are coming to this country.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: The backlog as of the end of 1960 was 63,341 all of whom, with the exception of 23, were sponsored cases. It stands to reason that so many applicants present a somewhat terrifying administrative problem. This has piled up over the years. When persons come here they bring their relatives. We are making every effort to bring wives and husbands or dependent children- to try to give them priority-but the problem still exists. However, with respect to some of these cases which have been on the books for a couple of years we feel that possibly the original sponsors may not be quite so eager to have them come out, so in order to ascertain the true state of the situation these cases are all being investigated to ascertain if the original sponsor is still in a position to receive his relatives.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I thank the minister for that last information. I was going to suggest that as she was probably aware members are constantly being approached with the suggestion that they check into what has happened in connection with various applications. I was in the office of one Canadian of Italian background a few weeks ago and he had a file there of several hundred cases of people who had applied and had received their initial letter of response and nothing had so far developed. In many cases the time lag had extended over the two year period. I not only think it is worth while from the department's point of view to remove the applications that may now be invalid because the parties are no longer anxious for them to come here, but I also think the department might consider some kind of reply to people who are waiting and still anxious to bring the people over.
I do not know whether the minister can make a reply now to that suggestion, but why should people have to wait 18 months to two years without any indication as to why, perhaps, the medical examination has not taken place or why people have not been called to the offices in Rome?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I think their relatives over there can give them the required information in correspondence. I might point

out to the hon. member that if we have to write 63,000 letters twice a year it is going to bog down the position even further. Whenever an application is made for up-to-date information on the state of any case we find out immediately and answer as quickly as possible.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Is there not, I will not say unfairness, but is there not something not quite right about accepting so many applications? You give these people the right-is it not a right or a privilege under our immigration set-up-to bring their relatives in. They take this as an important part of their prerogative of living in Canada. They know of the delays and hear of the backlog building up and there seems to be no end. It is three years since I became cognizant of the backlog and its increase.
I will admit that immigration has tended to tighten up in the last 18 months but that was not so several years ago. If the government for some reason is following a policy designed to use an administrative holdup to keep immigrants from Italy entering Canada, I am wondering if it is not time to be perfectly honest and frank with the Italian community in Canada and the Italians in the old country.
I am not trying to stir up a hornet's nest. I know the minister encountered some difficulties some time ago over new regulations she introduced that would have affected immigration from Italy but it seems to me in the long run the new regulations she had to withdraw would have been more fair than the present system of dragging out the matter. I will be interested in her comments on that.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, the action that has been taken has been taken and I do not intend to comment on it but to answer my hon. friend's other remarks, I do not think you can call it a slow-down when nearly 21,000 came in last year.


Douglas Mason Fisher: To put it more directly, is there any prospect which the minister can foresee of the backlog being reduced within the next two years which we will say is the life of her administration in one sense?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: As I told my hon. friend a few moments ago, we are investigating the sponsorship of all these cases. There may be some of them who are no longer interested in bringing forward their relatives.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I have one other question referring to a specific case concerning which I do not wish to generalize. I refer to people from Portugal who entered the country illegally and voluntarily turned themselves in.

They had purchased improper visas and after turning themselves in and appearing before the appeal board were deported. Even though I took an interest in the appeal I have no quarrel with the decision of the minister to have these people deported but I wonder if the minister can say if this permanently kills the possibility of those people having another chance to come to Canada?
Just to elaborate, it is my experience that these people lived in a state of anxiety and because of the particular milieu in which they have grown up they tended to take for granted as part of their way of doing things that they would pay so much money to someone and in return get a visa. It turned out that the visa was illegal and in a sense they were trapped and betrayed by their own ignorance. I know that ignorance is no excuse before the law and they were properly deported but is there any opportunity for those people to make legitimate applications to come to Canada and is there any likelihood of their applications being fairly considered?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, I cannot give a general answer to that question. I would have to know what the case was and determine just how serious were the charges. In some cases the deportation is not held against a person in the event of his subsequent reapplication to enter the country legally. However, I could not make a general statement without knowing the particulars of the case.


Harold Edward Winch: Can the minister say if there have been any changes in the regulations governing the coming into Canada on a temporary basis of musicians and other entertainers? If there have not been can the minister briefly tell us what is the situation?
My reason for raising this matter is because a few weeks ago a furore was created in Vancouver when one of the newspapers published a report to the effect that the minister's department was taking what was described as a dead aim at imported entertainers. The report said if there were not some new regulations there was going to be a stringent enforcement of existing regulations concerning the length of time entertainers could stay in Canada. The suggestion was made that they could stay here a maximum of four weeks and would have to leave the country for four weeks before they apply to enter again.
According to the report, musicians would have to put up a cash bond of $100 and other types of entertainers a cash bond of $300. A number of people drew this matter to my
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration attention and the report created a furore as the minister will understand. I would be interested in the minister's comment.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, I do not think there has been any change. Of course, each of these groups of entertainers is judged on its own face value. We have to determine if the group is a bona fide entertainment group, whether it has a contract of employment in Canada and whether it is putting Canadians out of work. There are a great many angles to this matter.
I do not think the payment of a cash bond is usual for the average group of entertainers entering Canada. It seems to me I recall something about this particular instance but I cannot remember the details. I would be glad to inquire into the matter and give my hon. friend a complete report on the particular case which he mentions. There seems to be many things which happen in Vancouver which do not happen elsewhere in the country and I am afraid I could not give a blanket answer with respect to this particular problem without looking at the file. If the hon. member would be satisfied to accept a report from me at a later date, I shall be happy to have the matter investigated.


Harold Edward Winch: I would appreciate that. It is very serious when a report of this nature is published in a newspaper with a circulation amounting to a few hundred thousand and especially when the author of the article suggests that the new regulations are a racial measure directed at negro entertainers who want to enter Canada. I believe it would be an excellent thing to have the matter clarified.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Without listening to any more detail I would say that such statement is absolute nonsense. We have negro entertainers coming into Canada right across the country from Halifax to Nova Scotia-


Mr. Browne (St. John's West):: Halifax to Vancouver.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Yes, thank you, Vancouver to Halifax. If they are bona fide entertainers and have contracts with Canadian places of entertainment they would have no difficulty.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I hope the hon. member is not suggesting that they would not be admitted to Newfoundland.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Oh, no. I was thinking of the immediate border.


Mr. Peters:: Mr. Chairman, have there been any changes in the regulations respecting oriental immigration or are any changes contemplated? I am thinking of people in those categories described by the minister as borderline cases. These people do not necessarily
2134	HOUSE OF
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration come under the regulations now. I was wondering about those to whom some hope had been held out concerning changes in the act itself.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I am afraid I do not understand what it is to which the hon. member refers. There was a change made with reference to Chinese fiancees the result of which means it is no longer necessary to post a cash bond. So far as any other changes are concerned I could not promise anything until we get the present investigation cleaned up, if that is the matter to which my hon. friend refers.
Before I resume my place perhaps I may be permitted to indicate to the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate that I now have some tables which I promised to make available to him the other day. One refers to immigration to Canada from countries in which Canadian immigration offices are located with the number of persons employed. That table gives figures up to February 19, 1961. The other table is a reconciliation of the revolving fund. If I have the permission of the committee, Mr. Chairman, instead of trying to read these rather voluminous tables, possibly I could place them on Hansard at this time.


John Whitney Pickersgill: That would certainly be agreeable to this side.


The Chairman:: Does the committee agree to have these documents inserted in Hansard at this point as having been read?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
(Editor's Note: The tables referred to above follow on p. 2135.)


John Whitney Pickersgill: The hon. lady was also going to see if she could not supply me with the memorandum which takes the place of that incomprehensible document that she produced last year. Has she reached any conclusion about that yet?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I think that is still to come, Mr. Chairman. I will find out about that. These charts came through first.


John Whitney Pickersgill: One other question; I
think, as far as I recall without checking back in Hansard, these were the only things the hon. lady agreed to produce. If she regards this as a breach of my agreement she does not need to answer this question. There was one question I meant to ask and forgot and it is this. Does the department still refuse to allow persons who are in Canada as visitors to apply for landing while they are inside the country?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Generally speaking, yes, Mr. Chairman, but there are some extenuating circumstances. I do not think I can give a


flat answer to the question. For instance, a person comes in and marries, or comes in to visit a relative and the relative takes ill. Of course, humanitarian principles govern in cases such as these. I do not think I could give my hon. friend a straight answer to his question.


John Whitney Pickersgill: The hon. lady will remember that the first year she was minister she was very rigid about this. I gather from what she says she has learned from experience.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I would not say it was learning from experience so much as it was relaxing in cases where humanitarian principles call for some relaxation.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Perhaps I could say the minister is following a good example.


Frank Charles McGee: Mr. Chairman, I wish to ask the minister about a rather delicate aspect of the immigration problem. Probably every hon. member has been approached by persons in this country with relatives in some other country, and the plaintive quality of their supplication, either in letter form or over the telephone and sometimes in person, takes the form of pleading, offering to do anything to be able to bring their loved one, their family or other persons to Canada. From time to time in discussions with these persons it has been suggested that they wanted to approach their member of parliament and do the thing properly and honestly, but the suggestion has persisted, certainly as long as I have been a member of parliament, that there are people who can fix these things.
Of course, any time this suggestion is made I try to obtain the name. I used to ask for it outright and, of course, the individual concerned would immediately shy away. On several occasions, one within the last year, upon asking about this particular individual who was supposed to be able to fix these things the individual informed me that he had already been asked that question, presumably by somebody in the immigration department, and he had turned over that information. As a matter of fact, in one case he said the mounted police had come and interviewed him almost immediately.
I must say I was greatly impressed with the dispatch with which this investigation was followed up. Certainly, the obvious suggestion conveyed by those persons-those are applicants for friends and family to come to the country-was that this person who had the inside track was getting to somebody within the department. As I say, I was impressed with the fact that they were being pinned down, they were being followed up.

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration Table showing immigration to Canada from countries in which Canadian immigration offices are located, with number of persons employed (as of February 1961)
			No. of Employees		
No. of	Canadian	LocallyCountry	Immigrants	Post	Officers	Other	EngagedEurope	Austria	
2,038	Vienna	4	1	11Belgium	
1,282	Brussels	4	1	7Denmark	
1,115	Copenhagen	4	1	6Finland	
964	Helsinki	1	-	3France	
2,944	Paris	9	1	12Germany	
10,774	Cologne	
Berlin	Hamburg	
Munich	13	1	56Stuttgart	Greece	
4,856	Athens	2	-	8Ireland (Republic)	
799	Dublin	2	1	3Italy	
20,681	Rome	8	1	23Netherlands	
5,429	The Hague	4	1	11Norway	
359	Oslo	1	-	3Portugal	
Spain	\ 5,023\ 	/ 526/	Lisbon	2	-	4Sweden	
334	Stockholm	1	-	3
1,048	2	4United Kingdom	
19,585	London	
Liverpool	
Leeds	
Bristol	
Belfast	
Glasgow	. 44	5	62Middle East	Israel	
1,532	Tel Aviv	2	1	4Asia	Hong Kong	
1,146	Hong Kong	4	1	9India	
505	New Delhi	2	1	4TOTALS	
80,850	109	16	233
Reconciliation op bevolving pond
Amount of fund authorized	
Total amount of assistance to December 31, 1960 Less refunds received to December 31, 1960..
Accounts outstanding	
*Balance available as of December 31, 1960...
	 $ 9,000,000.00
*20,763,517.35
17,024,967.53
	 3,738,549.82
	 5,261,450.18



S 9,000,000.00

[Stage Direction]
* As at December 31, 1960, there were outstanding commitments in the amount of $137,577.50
No. of persons who have benefited from scheme since its inception in February, 1951	 123,658
I wonder whether the minister can give us any information about these investigations and the type of person, if they do not have any particular qualification, who preys on those people, who takes advantage of those longings to extract, and I am given to understand in some cases substantial amounts of money from them? To my mind they are some of the most despicable people on the face of the earth. I am wondering whether
the minister can tell us anything about those investigations? To her knowledge, have any of those types of individuals been apprehended? If so, what has happened to them?
Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, this is one of those unpleasant things that arise from time to time. Unfortunately, there are people in this country who attempt to make money out of other people's troubles and whenever we hear of a case where we have sufficient
2136	HOUSE OF
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration information to investigate it we institute an immediate investigation. If we can get sufficient evidence to prosecute we will certainly prosecute. I cannot tell my hon. friend that I have any immediate recollection of a recent successful prosecution. Of course, if there are some, as I suspect there are, in the process of investigation, I could not discuss them in any event; but I can assure the hon. member that if we can find out that anyone is in fact attempting to take money from people on the promise that he can fix anything, if we can get enough evidence we will fix him.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Indian affairs branch-
55. Administration, $792,099.
John Whitney Pickersgill: Does the hon. lady wish to make a statement?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, since I last introduced estimates for the Indian affairs branch in this house I have had the privilege of meeting many more Indian Canadians in their far flung home communities. Last September I visited Churchill and talked with Indian people who live on the shores of Hudson bay. A few weeks ago I met others who live on the shores of the Atlantic in historic Cape Breton. Previously I had visited with the great prairie tribes and had met with them at their ceremonial fires. I have also visited the homes of those ancient Canadians who net their livelihood from the deep waters of the Pacific. I mention these things to indicate to hon. members that the conclusions I have arrived at are not the result of merely cursory examination of statistics nor of an isolated visit to a community with a particular local problem, but are born of firsthand knowledge after visiting these Canadians in their communities from sea to sea.
1 would not deny that the problems of these, our oldest Canadians, are many and difficult. Indeed they are, and their solution will require understanding, imagination and the best and wises decisions that we who legislate can bring to bear. And here let me say that I have high hopes that exhaustive examination of the social and economic status of the Indians now being undertaken by the joint committee of the Senate and House of Commons will point the way to both legislative changes and desirable programs.
Be that as it may, I am convinced, and I am sure hon. members are of like mind, that it is our bounden duty to ensure that Canadians of the Indian race are given the opportunity of sharing fully in the national life of this country. This will be denied


them unless they are given the training, academic and technical, to fit them for our increasingly complex and highly industrialized economy. I have recently stated outside this house the desirability of new Canadians possessing these skills from a point of view of their own good as well as that of Canada. It is, therefore, our duty to ensure that the oldest of our many Canadian races are granted these necessary skills.
The estimates now before the committee bear witness to our intentions to accept this obligation. Hon. members will note that almost $29 million, over 58 per cent of the total Indian affairs appropriation, is proposed for educational purposes. This continued expansion of the Indian educational program is reflected not only in the number of pupils receiving education but also in the scope of the courses which are being made available for Indian students. Preliminary reports indicate that the number of Indian pupils receiving an education has now reached the figure of approximately 42,500 of whom more than 10,000 are enrolled in non-Indian schools, universities, teachers' colleges, commercial and trade schools. The statistics for the year ended December 31, 1960 are not yet available but it is anticipated that at the present rate of increase during the fiscal year 1961-62 pupils attending such institutions will number in excess of 11,500.
In September, 1960 a revision of teachers' salaries was approved. The increase in the requirements for teachers' salaries for the 1961-62 fiscal year, which is approximately 4 per cent higher than the current fiscal year, is to provide for this increased salary scale. The department currently employs 1,351 teachers of whom 123 are of Indian status, or 9.1 per cent of the total teaching staff. It is my hope that this percentage will steadily increase.
The program of organizing education committees composed of Indian band members has continued a fairly rapid expansion. Last year I reported that 19 such committees were in existence. To date this number has increased to 25. These committees have been established in the following regions:	in
British Columbia, 6; in Alberta, 3; in Saskatchewan, 9; in Ontario, 5; in Quebec, 1; and in the maritimes, 1.
The department awarded 18 new scholarships during the fiscal year 1960-61 to outstanding students, the total of which amounted to $17,910, an increase of one in the number of awards and of $3,600 in the total value.
Provision is made for the construction of 109 new classrooms of which 40 are for the replacement of existing units and 40 new staff units, with a total estimated cost of

construction amounting to $5,500,000. In addition, provision is made for financial contributions toward a share of the construction cost of provincial schools in connection with the joint education of Indian and non-Indian pupils in 26 localities. During the current year 15 agreements for joint education of Indian pupils have been completed, with government contributions totalling approximately $1,100,000. The department has now completed 98 agreements with various provincial and territorial school boards in connection with the joint education of Indian and non-Indian pupils.
During the current fiscal year the program of repairs and upkeep of Indian schools was accelerated and had the additional attraction of providing for more winter employment. It is expected that an amount of approximately $483,000 will be expended by March 31, 1961, over and above the amount originally provided for this purpose.
In addition to the regular school program, the department has continued its work in the adult education field. During the year 1959-60 the total enrollment was approximately 1,300 with the greatest number enrolled in literacy and homemaking courses. In this regard the upgrading courses institute an interesting innovation in our adult education program this year. Under these schemes young Indian men and women who have left school are given short concentrated courses in English, mathematics and social orientation to prepare them for commercial, trade training and employment. Much interest and enthusiasm have been indicated so that now we have over 150 participants in such courses in Edmonton, Regina, Prince Albert and at Muncey. It is very apparent that the young Indian adult is becoming increasingly aware of the necessity of formal training.
An obvious extension of our responsibilities to Canadians of the Indian race is to ensure that, once skills have been attained, equal opportunities exist for them in the economic life of Canada. Through the new economic development division, which came into operation about a year ago, it has been possible to place added emphasis on the distinction between relief assistance on the one hand and the promotion of employment opportunities on the other. In the field of agriculture, assistance has generally been provided on a repayable basis. The program of lending cattle on a rotational basis to selected Indians in the western provinces has aroused considerable interest during the past year, and the current estimates include provision for a very substantial increase in livestock expenditures.
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration
Under the employment placement program, with excellent co-operation from the national employment service, the total number of selected Indians placed in regular employment in urban centres since April, 1957 has now risen to over 700, of whom 270 were placed during the year ended November 30 last. These are for the most part young Indians qualified for their jobs. They are in a very real sense pioneers in the process of integration; and the department has continued the policy of careful selection with this in mind and with a view to promoting good and lasting relationships with employers.
Rural and seasonal placements in which placement and field officers participated totalled over 8,500 from April, 1957 to November, 1960 and included nearly 4,000 individuals placed during the last year. These figures do not, of course, include Indians who have obtained employment independently or with the assistance of their local agency superintendent.
One of the problems in encouraging young Indians to take advantage of vocational training and employment opportunities has been, in many cases, their lack of education and social development. This problem was thoroughly reviewed at a meeting of administrative, educational and placement staff at Edmonton in October last. As a result, additional courses providing academic upgrading and social orientation have been initiated or are planned at several points in western Canada.
A regional placement officer was appointed to Fort Smith, Northwest Territories, in September, 1960, bringing the total of such specialists to nine. A new appointment for the Yukon Territory is expected shortly, and the estimates include provision for four additional appointments at London, Ontario, The Pas, Manitoba, Calgary, Alberta, and Prince George, British Columbia.
While economic development activities are extending into new fields the fact must not be forgotten that many Indians still depend on hunting, trapping and fishing for their livelihood and will continue to do so. In areas where fishing companies operate, the department assists Indian fishermen by providing equipment when required on a repayable basis, generally through deductions from sales of fish. In other areas the department has organized fishing operations on a project basis and provided supervision equipment, ice houses and other facilities. These operations serve as a training ground for Indian fishermen.
As in the past, Indian trappers have been grubstaked where required. The demands for this type of assistance tend to increase when other employment opportunities diminish. The
2138	HOUSE OF
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration Indians in the hinterland, however, benefited from many of the new developments in the northern areas and will participate in them to an even greater extent in the future.
In carrying out the various administrative programs of assistance the department has not overlooked the vital importance of research to meet the needs of tomorrow. An economist was appointed in October, 1960, as an economic development officer, to initiate surveys and studies and to co-ordinate activities of this nature carried out on our behalf or independently by other agencies. Several economic surveys are now in the process of being organized.
In introducing Indian affairs estimates last year I mentioned that a record total of 1,465 homes had been built on reserves and that 228 units had been started. Final records are not yet available for the current year but it is clear that we can expect another very successful year. Members will recall that to help meet the shortage of houses on many reserves and to provide employment during the winter months an additional sum of $200,000 was provided for this purpose in the supplementary estimates passed by the house on December 20 last.
I think hon. members will be particularly interested and pleased to note provision of $100,000 under the heading of loans, investments and advances to make possible housing loans to individual Indians on reserves. The purpose of this relatively small sum is merely to launch the program which will be introduced as soon as possible in the fiscal year 1961-62 in a few pilot areas. The purpose of these funds is to make loans available to Indians who earn a sufficient income to assume such obligations but who cannot secure credit from other lending institutions because of restrictions upon the use of real property situated on reserves as security.
The appropriation for housing is maintained at the same level as in previous years, which as members will recall this government doubled in 1958. These funds will provide grants and subsidies in addition to loans for families whose income is not sufficient to enable them to meet their housing requirements from present or future income.
In regard to welfare assistance, it will be recalled that the former ration system was discontinued in April of 1959. The change in procedure and the increased scale of benefits provided placed a good deal more responsibility upon Indian bands and upon individual members of these bands. Since I last reported to the house on this subject the number of bands whose needy members receive assistance by cheque has increased from 20 per cent to 40 per cent. A particularly interesting


development this year has been the negotiation of an agreement with the province of Manitoba. Under this agreement the federal and provincial governments share in the costs of a community development program which the province has launched in an effort to improve the social and economic standards in a number of communities with both Indian and Metis populations.
I should like to comment also, as a matter of general interest, upon the fact that 16 bands representing 74 per cent of the Indians in southern Ontario and 10 bands representing 13 per cent of the Indians in northern Ontario are now administering their own welfare assistance programs on exactly the same basis as municipalities in Ontario. This has been possible through amendments to the Ontario general welfare assistance act and the application of section 68 of the Indian Act.
All persons in these reserves apply to the band welfare administrator in non-Indian municipalities. Assistance is provided by this administrator from funds established in the band bank account. An 80 per cent subsidy, 50 per cent of which represents the federal share under the Unemployment Assistance Act agreements, is paid direct to the bands by the province. Under this program bands administer their own program, pay the normal municipal share of the costs, and deal directly with the province.
This progressive measure is being energetically pushed forward by the province of Ontario in co-operation with the Indian affairs branch. Discussions with other bands in the province are now under way, and it is expected that this program will be extended in the near future. Much has been and is being accomplished in works of a capital nature designed to improve the economy and conditions on populated reserves.
Perhaps the most important aspect of this program has been the extensive construction of roads which are needed, not only for the development of Indian community life but are most essential in providing the Indian population with access to neighbouring municipalities where advantage may be taken of the opportunity for employment and the means of earning a better livelihood. The importance of roads to the educational program, especially on the larger reserves, must not be overlooked. It is only by the provision of better roads that greater use of school bus transportation can be made to ensure that more Indian children attend classes regularly in the schools operated by the department as well as municipal schools where such arrangements are in effect.
It is interesting to note the co-operation received from provincial governments by the branch in its roadbuilding program in many

areas. The payment of provincial subsidies or straight sharing of project costs by the provincial departments concerned have resulted in more and better roads being developed and, in many instances, having these joined up with important provincial and municipal road systems. A continued high level of expenditure on these capital works is anticipated in the new year.
In these introductory remarks I have endeavoured to make it clear that these estimates are designed to meet our needs if certain clearly defined objectives are to be attained: First, a continued acceleration of our educational program so that Indian youth will be assured the opportunity of a full academic life and the opportunity of learning those skills which are necessary tools with which to work and progress in our national life; second, the development of projects designed to enable him to take full advantage of knowledge so gained; and, third, the improvement of home and community facilities so that he may walk securely among us as a fellow citizen blessed with a proud heritage.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, I think it is a great advantage to the committee to have had the quite comprehensive survey that has just been given by the minister. I should like to thank the hon. lady for the neat way in which she summarized what she felt to be the most important aspects of the work of the department. I am very happy to see that there seems to be no difference between us that the most important part of the work of the Indian affairs branch is in the field of education. It is incomparably more important than anything else. I am very glad also to observe that it is realized more and more that education does not stop at the age of 16.
One of the most tragic features-I think I have mentioned this on several occasions before but it does no harm to mention it again-of Indian affairs administration for many years was the lack of any provision for those young people who came out of residential schools and who went back to the reserves. These people often came from broken homes and were orphans at the age of 16. They returned to the reserve because there was no place for them to go and, in some cases, they were quite disoriented from their band. This was something that certainly should not have been allowed to continue even as long as it did.
We do know that after the war the government began to repair the damage which had resulted from the neglect of the war years, and there was so much to do in so many directions that it could not all be done at once. It is reassuring, and I am sure it is true, to find that today no Indian who can 90205-6-135
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration get through high school and who is willing to go on and take further education, is denied the opportunity for financial reasons.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Yes, that is right.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I think this has been true since the days when Mr. Harris was the minister, and the provision of the scholarships, with which I was associated when I was minister, was just another stage in the development. I think it was more a moral change than anything else in that it seemed to me that the scholarships established a recognition of merit. Before the scholarships were established the Indians were not denied the education that they were capable of taking. The gratifying thing is that there are more, not as many as we would hope perhaps, of these young Indians who finish high school and who go into universities, more who go into technical schools and, more recently, into vocational training.
It is very encouraging also to find, if I understood the hon. lady correctly, that there has been an increasing interest on the part of adult Indians, particularly the younger adults, in securing vocational training of one kind or another. I must say I should like to look again at what the hon. lady said about the placement service to see whether there is an adequate reflection in the placement of the increased educational training. I would hope there is, but of course we do recognize that in the present circumstances employment is not quite as easy to get as it was a few years ago when people were coming to beg us to provide Indians for various occupations. We know it is not quite so easy to get jobs today.
I think it would be interesting, when we are considering these estimates tomorrow in somewhat more detail, to have the minister tell us about some of the areas in which there is an increasing amount of regular employment being provided for the Indians off the reserves and particularly in the northern and frontier areas. It seems to me that they are much better adapted to provide really stable employees than are many of the people who drift into these areas from the more settled parts of the country and who also quite often drift out quickly afterwards.
I intend to make a request of the minister and I should like to give her notice of this request now. Some time tomorrow I intend to ask the minister whether she could have a computation made and could give it to us, first of all, giving the latest available figure of the total Indian population which I believe is growing. I presume a D.B.S. estimate was made.
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Supply-Citizenship and Immigration


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I could give it right away.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I think it would perhaps be better to have all this information together. What I should like to have is this. I should like to know approximately how much the federal government is spending not just in the Indian affairs branch but also adding in the amount in the Indian health branch.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I am not responsible for that.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I know the minister is not responsible for this matter but in order to get a figure that would not be a discredit to the government of the country, I think it would be desirable to add the two together just to find out per capita what we are spending on the Indians. I think this would be of interest to the people of Canada generally. I think it is the kind of information that it would be desirable to give. If the minister gives only the figures for her own department that would be a gross underestimate of what really is being done by the Canadian people.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I can speak to my colleague.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I could do the arithmetic myself for the minister but I have not as much technical assistance as she has.


Douglas Mason Fisher: That is not the way we heard it.


John Whitney Pickersgill: If I could get the assistance of the hon. member for Port Arthur perhaps I could do these problems in arithmetic myself. I think perhaps I could do them, but I am appealing to the minister and to her sense of collective responsibility in making this particular request.
I was also greatly interested in what the minister said about the administration of welfare. I recall that in 1957 we took the first tentative steps in a few pilot reserves to pay relief in cash and to leave it to the Indians to make their own decisions as to the way in which they would spend that money. I know this was done with a certain amount of misgiving on the part of many of those who were associated with that decision. From what the minister has said I gather that this procedure had turned out well and that it is being adopted to an increasing extent. I was also interested in-and I think I shall have a few more questions to ask about it-this arrangement that is being made with the government of Ontario for the administration of relief through municipalities.
I should also be greatly interested to hear in more detail about this new agreement in


Manitoba which was already, of course, being foreshadowed by work that was being done in the legislature as much as five years ago by a legislative committee. As a matter of fact the department lost an extremely useful member of the citizenship branch who went to the government of Manitoba when I was minister in order to start the planning of this work. I am prompted to make one other observation and then I am going to sit down because I should like the hon. member for Skeena to have a few minutes.


Mr. Howard:: Oh, oh.


John Whitney Pickersgill: There seems to be a marked difference between the attitude toward Indians of provincial governments in those provinces in which the Indians have the vote and that in those in which they do not have the vote.


Charles Benjamin Howard: The graciousness of the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate overwhelms me. I was sure that with his vast store of knowledge and his great interest in this matter he would be making perhaps more than one speech on the item.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I make no promises.


Charles Benjamin Howard: In the few moments at my disposal may I express the appreciation of all of us in the effective opposition of the comprehensive statement of the minister earlier in opening up these estimates. We think that quite correctly she has put her finger, as well as has the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate, on the whole question of the acculturation or the integration of Indians or the mutual interest amongst Indians and non-Indians. I refer to the field of education.
You will recall, Mr. Chairman, that at an earlier stage when we were debating the establishment of a joint committee of the Senate and House of Commons on Indian affairs we also dealt with this matter. My particular point then was that education is a thing upon which we must rest our hopes and in which we must place our faith with regard to having our Indian people take the longest possible step toward a decent way of life and respectable living.
Incidentally, while I am on the subject of the joint committee, may I say this. I cannot for the life of me understand the long delay in calling that committee or why that committee has not been called since it has been established. I hope this difficulty will perhaps be overcome within the next two or three days or at the beginning of the week so that this all-important committee can get down to studying the intricacies of this particular problem to the end that it might come up this session with some decent recommendation.
Resolutions reported and concurred in.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

John Whitney Pickersgill: Perhaps I could ask the house leader what the government is planning for tomorrow.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Tomorrow we will carry on with the estimates that come under the jurisdiction of the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration; that is to say we shall conclude Indian affairs. Then there are some other items such as national gallery, film board, archives and national library which would be passed, I hope tomorrow.
For the guidance of the house, I might just say this. When you consider the fact that the estimates of 20 departments are to come before the house, it is advisable early in the session to allocate the time so that we are not rushed in our deliberations toward the conclusion of the session. About six hours have been devoted to this particular department. If these estimates are concluded tomorrow we will carry on then with the estimates of the Department of Agriculture. The forecast for next week, which I underline is subject to change, runs as follows. On Monday and Tuesday there would be a supply motion, the subject matter being in the hands of the opposition. Wednesday, Thursday and Friday would be devoted to government business.
Unless something occurs over which I have no control it is expected that on Wednesday
Business of the House
we will deal with the motion in the name of the Minister of Transport to set up the sessional committee on railways, air lines and shipping followed by the resolution in the name of the Minister of Transport to amend the Canadian National Railways Act. That resolution is No. 5 on today's order paper.
The estimates for next week will be announced, I imagine, on Monday or Tuesday of next week. It depends on the progress we make tomorrow.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I might perhaps draw the attention of the leader of the house to the fact that there was an implication to be drawn from what the Prime Minister said that the estimates of the Department of Labour would be taken next week.


Gordon Minto Churchill: The Prime Minister suggested there was an opportunity on the supply motion for the subject which concerns the opposition to be discussed. A good deal depends on that. If the spokesman for the opposition will tell me what the subject is to be for Monday and Tuesday, then perhaps I could announce whether the estimates of the Department of Labour will be considered next week.
It being three minutes after ten o'clock, the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
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