1961-02-23

[Stage Direction]
Fourth report of standing committee on standing orders-Miss Aitken.

["Agreed.\n[Editor's Note: For correspondence referred to above, see appendix.l"]
Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prime Minister):: From time immemorial it has been a convention in accordance with British parliamentary tradition that no one is permitted within the precincts of the House of Commons except the members, the reason being, as Your Honour knows, that in the days of Charles I and prior thereto, if there was anyone of distinction or power present in the gallery the freedom of members of parliament to speak was, to say the least, circumscribed if not denied. That tradition survives today in the fiction that there is no one present at any time in the galleries of the House of Commons.
Nevertheless, these fears of intimidation on this occasion, however distinguished the delegation, do not prevent me-and I hope the house will not deny me-the privilege and opportunity of welcoming the members of the United States Senate and House of Representatives who are in this city meeting with the parliamentary representatives of Canada. The agenda is an important one dealing with such matters as foreign affairs, defence, and economic problems which activate each of our nations. The relationship between our countries, long one of the closest in the world, is represented officially by such organizations as the international joint commission and the permanent joint board on defence and, on the cabinet level by the committee on joint defence and the committee on trade and economic questions.
These members of the United States congress who are with us today bring to us the strength, the vigour and the knowledge of the co-operation which prevails between our two countries. I for one, many years ago, advocated in this chamber the need of bringing together representatives of the United States and Canada, and I was joined in that opinion by the hon. member for
Laurier. In the intervening years those meetings were not achieved, except through the parliamentary group of the commonwealth parliamentary association, until 1958. Since then there have been these exchanges between parliamentarians of our countries which mean so much to each of us, joined together not only geographically but in the mind and soul for the maintenance and preservation of freedom.
Our interdependence cannot be achieved without mutual awareness. There will be problems. There have been problems. We solve them through the instrumentality of discussion and agreement. The removal of misunderstandings is a continuing task with us. We do this in the broad and harmonious perspective of understanding. Unofficial though this organization is, it has already contributed much to understanding between oui countries and the solution of problems which have risen, and I know that that function will continue in the years ahead.
It is therefore my privilege as Prime Minister, through you, sir, to extend to Senatoi Aiken as chairman of the visiting group o: senators and congressmen the thanks of the Canadian parliament for their visit with us, coupled with the warmest welcome that we can accord to those with whom we are united in sentiment and dedication.


Hon. L. B. Pearson (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, it gives me very special pleasure to join with the Prime Minister on behalf of the official opposition in the welcome he has extended to our guests from the United States. To adapt that expression of the seventeenth century which the Prime Minister mentioned as one inspiring intimidation, we might say in this case "We spy friends".
This joint committee of the United States congress and the Canadian parliament is, as the Prime Minister has said, playing an increasingly useful part in examining into and strengthening the good relations between our two countries, helping to keep the neighbourhood fences in good repair, a result that does not just happen of itself.
In Canada, relations with our neighbour have been a major concern of ours ever since we became a nation, and indeed before that. The problems arising out of those relations are nothing new; yet we have always, at least in this century, managed to settle our difficulties in a manner which reflects the

Congress Members in Gallery genuine friendship and underlying good will between our two peoples. Perhaps it is well to recall this at this time in order to keep problems in perspective and to remind ourselves of the deeper and more important things that bind us together in a dangerous world.
Senator Aiken, who is a member of the United States delegation and whom we all know, respect and admire, said the other day that the United States and Canada cannot differ too much because our interests are "hopelessly interlocked". They are also, I believe, "hopefully" interlocked. Co-operation between us in defence, in trade and in everything else is essential. There will be honest differences among us in Canada as to the best methods for achieving co-operation in a changing world, but there will be no differences between us as to the necessity for such co-operation and the necessity for working together in an effort to promote progress, peace and security in the world today with justice and freedom for all.


Mr. Hazen Argue (Assiniboia):: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to join with the Prime Minister and Leader of the Opposition in welcoming to our galleries the distinguished representatives from the United States Senate and House of Representatives. In the past I have had the good fortune of being a member of the Canadian part of this joint interparliamentary group, and I can say that in those initial discussions I believe we had a frank exchange of views. I believe that the establishment of this group can and should lead to a better understanding between our nations.
It would not be frank on my part, Mr. Speaker, if I did not say that in view of the C.C.F.-New Party there are major outstanding differences between our two nations with regard to trade, economic, defence and other problems; but we are convinced that with clear and frank discussion, with an honest effort to settle those differences, we can make progress in building democracy, freedom and prosperity.
Our rules are not the same-we find that out every day-as the rules governing debate in the United States congress. Under our rules we are not able to give the same kind of extended welcome that some of us have received on the floor of the United States Senate; none the less, under our procedures where we have party representation, we can say to our distinguished friends that they receive today a unanimous welcome from the Canadian House of Commons.



John George Diefenbaker: I hope the spirit of unanimity will continue after I have finished. Now, sir, I wish to announce that the Prime Minister of Greece, Mr. Karamanlis, has accepted an invitation to pay an official visit to Ottawa. His visit is planned for April 13 and 14; the details of that visit are to be announced later on.
We welcome him as a representative of one of our NATO allies and of a people who have made a great contribution to Canada in the years in which they have been among our citizens.


John George Diefenbaker: The hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate, on a number of occasions last week, asked for the tabling of the exchange of correspondence with the premiers of the provinces in connection with the dominion-provincial conference being held today and tomorrow. With the leave of the house I will table this correspondence now.


Mr. Pickersgill:: Will the Prime Minister ask to have the letters printed in Hansard, as is customary?


John George Diefenbaker: The hon. gentleman suggests that they be printed as an appendix to Hansard. If that is agreeable to the house, it is acceptable.


Mr. Speaker:: Does the house give unanimous consent to the printing of the letters just tabled as an appendix to today's Hansardl


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
[Editor's Note: For correspondence referred to above, see appendix.l



UNITED NATIONS


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I wish now to announce the composition of the Canadian delegation to the resumed session of the United Nations general assembly on March 7. The Canadian delegation will be led, of course, by the Secretary of State for External Affairs (Mr. Green). The vice-chairman will be the parliamentary secretary to the Secretary of State for External Affairs, the hon. member for Oxford (Mr. Nesbitt). The remaining delegates and alternate delegates will be drawn

entirely from the group who served during the first half of the general assembly session last fall. Arrangements are being made for parliamentary observers to attend. While I am unable at the moment to give their names, they will be drawn, as usual, two from this side of the house and one from each of the opposition parties.
The delegation will be slightly smaller than for a regular session because the assembly disposed of a major portion of its business before it recessed at Christmas. Three of the assembly's main committees have already completed their work, and the delegation to the resumed session is to deal with the work of the remaining four committees.
The delegation will in fact consist of Senator Blois from the other place, the hon. member for Calgary South, the hon. member for Charlevoix and, from the Department of External Affairs, General Burns, the government's disarmament adviser, Mr. C. S. A. Ritchie, the Canadian permanent representative to the United Nations, and Mr. Morley Scott.
The Canadian government for its part hopes that the renewed debates may serve to improve the international atmosphere and that progress will be made particularly on the problem of disarmament.



O.E.C.D.-APPROVAL OF CONVENTION AND RELATED AGREEMENTS

[Stage Direction]
On the order: Government notices of motions:
February 21-The Prime Minister-the following proposed resolution:-
That it is expedient that the houses of parliament do approve the convention on the organization for economic co-operation and development, supplementary protocol No. 1 to the convention on the organization for economic co-operation and development, supplementary protocol No. 2 to the convention on the organization for economic co-operation and development, and the memorandum of understanding on the application of article XV of the convention on the organization for economic co-operation and development, all of which were signed in Paris on December 14, 1960; and that this house do approve the above agreements.
Mr. Speaker:: Pursuant to section 2 of standing order 21 this government notice of motion is transferred to and ordered for consideration under government orders at the next sitting of the house.



UNITED NATIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Prime Minister or
Inquiries of the Ministry the Secretary of State for External Affairs arising out of a report to the effect that the Secretary General of the United Nations has called on members of the United Nations to strengthen the emergency force in the Congo. My question is whether the government has taken any action in regard to this request of the secretary general.


Hon. Howard C. Green (Secretary of Stale for External Affairs):: Mr. Speaker, I think the request has not been made just in the terms cited by the Leader of the Opposition. The force requirements under the new security council resolution of February 21 are only now being assessed by those responsible for the United Nations operation in the Congo, who are in the best position to judge which countries can make the most useful contribution. As I indicated to the house on February 21, no request for additional forces has so far been made to Canada. The government is, of course, prepared to examine any requests put before it.



REQUEST FOR PROTEST AGAINST POLITICAL MURDERS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hazen Robert Argue: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs. Would the minister care to comment on the reported continuation of political murders in the Congo? Will Canada speak out strongly against this revolting blood bath?


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, there is no doubt whatever about the revulsion felt in Canada generally, by all members of this house and also, I suggest, in every country of the world, at the continuing reports of assassinations for political purposes in the Congo. It is precisely to put an end to this and other acts of bloodshed in the Congo that the latest security council resolution gives greater authority for the United Nations to intervene in the Congolese situation.
It is too early yet to have arrived at a precise assessment or interpretation of all the implications of the security council resolution of February 21. Various measures calling for procedures of implementation have been included in the resolution. These measures are broad in scope, and it has not yet been established in what way the United Nations will carry them out. Various Congolese leaders are known to have taken strong exception to one or more of the measures envisaged in the resolution.
However, as the most important purpose of the security council resolution is to prevent civil war in the Congo, it can be assumed that the United Nations representatives will rely

Inquiries of the Ministry primarily on consultation, persuasion and conciliation to bring about co-operation among the various factions and with the United Nations forces on the ground. This would appear to offer the best hope of pacification and stabilization in the Congo.
I suggest that at this date we should not be concentrating our attention on this question of the possible use of force. The resolution states clearly that force would be used only if necessary and in the last resort. I am sure that we can rely on the good judgment of the Irish commander of the U.N. forces in the Congo, General McKeown, to act responsibly.
I would point out again that as the purpose of the United Nations is to prevent civil war, its immediate recourse must surely be to the arts of peace, namely patient negotiation and conciliation.



FINANCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Lionel Chevrier (Laurier):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Finance based upon the following statement which appeared in this morning's Globe and Mail:
It is pitiful to see a minister of the crown so clearly contradicting himself, for the sake of political expediency. Yet we can stand the humiliation of a minister. What is not tolerable is that a responsible minister, for the sake of political expediency, should perpetuate and spread, within the country and abroad-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. If the hon. member rose to ask for information, it seems to me that he is making something of political accusation. If there is a question of administrative responsibility arising out of the report, will the hon. member please ask it.


Lionel Chevrier: Yes, Mr. Speaker, there is a definite question. In view of these special harmonious circumstances today I would have thought you would have relaxed the rule somewhat, but be that as it may, I ask the Minister of Finance this question in view of the statement which calls upon him for his resignation if he is not able to handle Mr. Coyne. My question is this. What course does the minister intend to take in view of the statement contained in the Globe and Mail?


Hon. Donald M. Fleming (Minister of Finance):: Mr. Speaker, the minister intends to pursue a course in better keeping with the rules of the house than that being followed by the hon. member for Laurier. The statement he read was not an item in the newspaper at all; it was an extract from an editorial.


Mr. Martin (Essex East):: That is right.


Donald Methuen Fleming: The question was not asked for information, but I suppose the reading from an editorial based on a particular point of view has sufficiently served the purposes of the hon. member for Laurier. He has, however, succeeded in breaking the rules in several respects already. I do not intend to follow his example in that regard.


John Whitney Pickersgill: You are doing it already.


Donald Methuen Fleming: So far as the Minister of Finance is concerned, Mr. Speaker, his course of action will be governed by his duty and not by dictation from elsewhere.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, before my dear friend the Minister of Finance departs from his present ministerial responsibilities may I direct to him a question based on a request made by the president of the Canadian Construction Association, namely that in view of the unemployment situation in Canada the federal government implement its double depreciation program. My question based on this statement is this. Is the minister now in a position to tell the house when we may expect this program to be implemented, if it is to be at all effective in the present unemployment situation?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, I have not seen the statement to which the hon. member refers. Apparently he has earlier access to statements directed to me than I myself have. I may say that the provisions for double depreciation in the case of industries introducing new methods or making new products in Canada were approved some time ago.



UNEMPLOYMENT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Finance. In view of the statement the minister made the other day, that without question there was an emergency over unemployment, I should like to ask him whether he does not think it is urgent to designate the areas of chronic unemployment and take the necessary steps.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, I did not say there was an emergency over unemployment at all. On the contrary, I referred to statements made

by the official opposition to that effect and expressed more than mild surprise that if the opposition truly held that opinion they had chosen to forgo the opportunity that was presented to them on Monday to have a debate on the subject.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I am rising on a question of personal privilege, Mr. Speaker.


Some hon. Members:: Sit down.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. If the hon. member is rising on a question of privilege I will hear him. I was just about to say that I thought no supplementary question would be admissible in this debate, which has already gone too far.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I have no desire to ask a supplementary question. The minister has called my word into question and I should like to draw his attention to Hansard of February 21, which I looked at just before coming into the house, where at page 2253 the minister is reported as having said:
Mr. Speaker, I should like to begin my remarks this afternoon by quoting with full approval the opening remarks made by the hon. member for Kootenay West-
The first sentence of the remarks of the hon. member for Kootenay West began:
Without any question, that is an emergency.
He was referring to unemployment.


Donald Methuen Fleming: The hon. member has missed the point entirely. He has missed the bus, as usual. He was not in the house when these remarks were made.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I just rely on the words.


Donald Methuen Fleming: He was not in the
house, so as a Johnny-come-lately he has been reading Hansard. I quoted with approval the remarks of the hon. member for Kootenay West when he very properly and severely castigated the official opposition for having talked endlessly about the existence of a national emergency in relation to unemployment, and when they had an opportunity to have a debate on that subject they turned tail and did not choose to do so; they chose another subject, a stale subject, a repetition of a debate we had two years ago. [Later:]


Paul Joseph James Martin: May I ask
the Minister of Trade and Commerce if it is a fact that the responsibility for the scheduling of depressed areas in order to take advantage of the double depreciation allowances announced by the Minister of Finance is to be the responsibility of the
Inquiries of the Ministry hon. gentleman's department? In that event, will the minister say when we may expect this policy to be implemented?


Hon. George H. Hees (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: I think the Minister of Finance has made the whole situation very clear to the opposition, and I have nothing to add to what he has said.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Is the responsibility to be that of the Minister of Trade and Commerce?


George Harris Hees: No. The designation of those areas has always been a responsibility of the Department of Labour.


Mr. Marlin (Essex Easl):: In view of the importance of this matter in relation to the present extent of unemployment in Canada, may I ask the Minister of Labour whether it is a fact that the administration of the depressed area program in connection with the double depreciation allowance policy of the government is to be carried out by his department, or whether it is his understanding that it is to be administered by the Minister of Finance or the Minister of Trade and Commerce.


Hon. Michael Starr (Minister of Labour):: Mr. Speaker, the designation of the labour surplus areas is to be made by the governor in council. I have nothing further to add to what has already been given in answer to questions directed to the Prime Minister some few days ago.


Peter Francis Martin: Are we to take from the minister's reply that the members of the cabinet either do not know who is responsible for this program or-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member is now expressing an argumentative line of reasoning.


Peter Francis Martin: With great respect, Mr. Speaker, surely we are entitled to ask which minister and which department will be responsible for the administration of this very important program. I have asked the Minister of Finance, the Minister of Trade and Commerce and now the Minister of Labour, and we have not yet received a definite answer. If the Minister of Labour says that the government's policy will be announced in due course, that is all right, but surely we are entitled to know whether that is the reply or whether the government does know who is going to be responsible.


Michael Starr: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. As the hon. member for Essex East suggested, he has a right to

Inquiries of the Ministry ask his questions, and he has asked them; but I would not think he had the right to go down the front benches putting his questions in order to find out by the sweep and search method. That, however, is not the reason I intervened. The hon. member's question was of an argumentative nature.


Michael Starr: Mr. Speaker, I should like to set the record straight. I referred to the answer the Prime Minister gave some few days ago to a question asked, I believe, by the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate. At that time the Prime Minister said-and I am now attempting to paraphrase-that when the policy was decided upon it would be announced in the normal way. The hon. member for Essex East did not happen to be in the house on that occasion, and I regret this, but if he will read Hansard he will find his answer.



GALT, ONT.-REPORTED INTIMIDATION OF UNEMPLOYED

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. C. A. Cathers (York North):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Labour. Has the minister any comment to make on a charge reported in the Globe and Mail yesterday as emanating from Mr. Sefton of district 6, united steelworkers of America, to the effect that unemployed workers were being intimidated by the unemployment insurance office in Galt?


Michael Starr: Mr. Speaker, I noted with interest the press release issued by Mr. Larry Sefton, director district 6, united steel workers of America, charging intimidation of unemployed workers by officials of the national employment service at Galt. This indeed is a reflection upon the national employment service, the hon. member for Waterloo South, and myself since, I, too was mentioned in this press release. This reference also appeared in the newspaper article to which the hon. member referred.
In essence, Mr. Sefton takes exception to the fact that persons who had forwarded printed cards to the hon. member for Waterloo South were called into the office of the unemployment insurance commission and interviewed with a view to finding employment for them. He also charges that they were reprimanded for sending cards to the hon. member.
My office has been in touch with Mr. Fitz-gibbon, the manager of the Galt office, and we are assured that no person interviewed was reprimanded or criticized in any way for having signed the cards in question. What happened was that on receipt of a number

of cards which were forwarded in line with what Mr. Sefton describes as-and I quote the report in part-"a postcard campaign for jobs" and which cards read, in part:
.-please let me know where to apply. X want work, not unemployment insurance or welfare payments-
-the hon. member for Waterloo South spoke to me and I advised him to forward the cards to the local unemployment insurance commission office and ask the officials of the commission in that office to look into the possibility of finding employment for the signers of the cards. This is normal procedure and something that is done in every case when any individual writes indicating that he or she is without employment.
The necessary follow-up to such procedure is, of course, to bring the individual in for interview with a view to determining his employability and his availability for work. I might say in this connection that while the national placement service are operating in an efficient manner, they have not yet reached the point where they are in a position to refer people to jobs without interviewing them.
The interviews in question, conducted in accordance with the accepted practices for such interviews and in a genuine spirit of attempting to find work for the persons involved, turned up some interesting facts. Perhaps the facts that became evident might account for Mr. Sefton's objection to having such persons interviewed at all.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. Before the minister proceeds, I invite him to consider whether it is necessary to elaborate on what he has already said. After all, the minister is supposed to be giving a concise answer to a concise question, and I consider that he has had an opportunity to give a very full answer in explanation.


Hazen Robert Argue: On the point
of order you raised, Mr. Speaker, I do not object to the detailed statement the minister is now making, but on such a controversial question it would be more appropriate for him to have made that statement on motions so that it could be commented upon by representatives of all political parties, instead of making it in a way which means that very little comment can be made except by questions.


John Whitney Pickersgill: On the point of order, Mr. Speaker, I think it would be still more appropriate for this explanation to be made in committee of supply on the estimates of the Department of Labour so that the hon. member for York

North would not be given privileges not given to other hon. members of the house to discuss this very important question; and I suggest that this be done tomorrow.


Mr. Anderson:: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. Unless the Minister of Labour feels there is some fact essential to the answer which has not yet been given, I suggest that he consider the question as answered.


Michael Starr: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Assiniboia stated that this was a controversial subject. In fact it is not. There has been a serious charge made against the national employment service office, the hon. member for Waterloo South and myself.


Mr. Speaker:: I was not sure when the minister continued whether he was making a matter of privilege out of it or simply answering the question asked by the hon. member for York North. He has amply answered the question raised by the hon. member for York North, and unless there is a matter of privilege or something new I suggest that that should be the end of it.


William Anderson: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege affecting a great many hon. members of this house in addition to myself as the member of parliament referred to in this report. I think the charge laid against the unemployment insurance office in Galt and against me personally is a downright disgrace. I acted, as usual, in good faith and I am certainly not reported correctly. Not only did I forward the cards and ask that the manager grant the individuals involved an interview, but I personally wrote each individual; but that is not mentioned in the report.


Mr. Speaker:: Perhaps the hon. member for Waterloo South would indicate what charge was made against him and by whom as a basis for raising a question of his privileges as a member of the house. Just a discussion of the background of the matter seems to me not to be warranted unless there was some specific charge against the hon. member's character or conduct made by some specific person, and unless the hon. member can indicate who it was and what the charge was on which he bases his question of privilege.


William Anderson: Mr. Speaker, the charge was laid against me personally and against the office in Galt by Mr. Larry Sefton, district 6, united steel workers of America, the
Inquiries of the Ministry Toronto office. I bring this to the attention of the house only as a result of the minister's statement.


Mr. Speaker:: I did not understand the hon. member to state what the charge was that might reflect on his conduct as a member.


William Anderson: The charge was that of subtle intimidation on the part of myself and the manager of the unemployment insurance office in Galt, Mr. Speaker.


Mr. Speaker:: I may be mistaken but as I understood the statement the intimidation was alleged to have come from the unemployment insurance office and not from the hon. member. I think there is no question of privilege there and that the hon. member's explanation would be sufficient to deal with the matter.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Mr. Speaker:: Did I hear some hon. member who wishes to say something further or the point?


Hazen Robert Argue: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. In view of the serious charges that have been made by certain trade union officials against certain employees of the national employment service, would the minister consider referring the whole question to the industrial relations committee so that the people making the charges and those against whom charges have been made could appear before the committee to give evidence, thus enabling us to get to the root of this matter and see whether or not intimidation has been resorted to?


William Anderson: None of the people involved even answered the letters I sent out to them.


Michael Starr: I made a complete investigation of the whole matter, and I find that there is no necessity for a referral of this matter to the industrial relations committee because those charges are unfounded. They have been made for political reasons and without any foundation whatever, and those who happen to be unemployed-they are using them to further their political activity. Certain cards are being signed by persons other than those whose names appear on them.


Hazen Robert Argue: That is a rotten statement.


William Anderson: Withdraw.


Mr. Ricard:: Did you organize them? It looks as though you organized them.


Mr. Speaker:: I am sure the hon. member should not make such a statement from his seat. If he wishes to take issue-


Some hon. Members:: Withdraw.
2342	HOUSE OF
Inquiries of the Ministry


Mr. Speaker:: I was not asking the hon. member to withdraw, but if he wishes to take issue with the minister he should find the appropriate time and way to do so.


William Anderson: The leader of the C.C.F.
should withdraw. I have proof of what I say right here on my desk.


Hazen Robert Argue: 1 am not withdrawing.



HOUSING


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. R. Garland (Nipissing):: I should like to direct a question to the Prime Minister. Can he say whether the government intends at this session to introduce legislation that would permit N.H.A. approved lending on existing housing?


John George Diefenbaker: As the hon. member knows, Mr. Speaker, declarations of policy are not made in answer to questions at this time.



THE CENSUS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Hubert Badanai (Fort William):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce. Can the minister inform the house whether a census commissioner has been appointed for the electoral district of Fort William? If so, will he indicate the name of the person?


Some hon. Members:: Order paper.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. Before the minister answers the question, may I remind the hon. member for Fort William that there are 265 districts, each with four census commissioners. If each member were allowed a question, it would be impossible to carry on any public business for the rest of the week. I suggest that he put the question on the order paper or address it privately to the minister.


Hubert Badanai: May I say that I sent the minister notice of my intention to ask this question. I therefore believe he has the answer.


Mr. Speaker:: I am sorry, but the minister is not able to answer questions which are not admitted.



POST OFFICE DEPARTMENT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Azellus Denis (St. Denis):: Mr. Speaker,
I wish to direct a question to the Postmaster 

General. First, however, may I be permitted to congratulate him on his birthday and wish him every success and a long and happy life, outside the house, of course. My question is this. Can the minister advise the house whether the rates of postage on parcels have been increased since the opening of this session? If so, to what extent and on what authority?


Hon. W. M. Hamilton (Postmaster General):: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for the expression of his regard. I too hope that I shall be around here for a long time, inside as well as outside, and that he will be in that position which he occupies to ask me questions.
It was announced several months ago that there would be an increase in the parcel post rates effective March 1, under the normal authority which applies. Those rates are not established by parliament.


Azellus Denis: I have a supplementary question. Can the minister explain why the house was not informed of this matter in view of the fact that we have been sitting since November last?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member is asking about information that is equally accessible to all members of the house.



NATIONAL REVENUE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Guy Rouleau (Dollard):: I wish to direct a question to the Minister of National Revenue based upon a telegram I just received from a Mr. Richard of United Auto Parts of St. Laurent and Montreal in agreement with the Canadian automotive wholesalers manufacturing association. I should like to ask the minister whether he is aware of the fact that, effective March 1, all factories doing lining of brakeshoes will have to obtain a manufacturer's sales tax licence and charge that tax to garage owners, the direct effect of which will be to penalize small enterprise and to increase unjustly the price charged to and paid by the general consumer?


Hon. George C. Nowlan (Minister of National Revenue):: Mr. Speaker, I am not in a position to deal in detail with that question, as I should wish to study it in Hansard. However, it is not correct that all manufacturers are obliged to do this. The sales tax applies only to those over the $3,000 limit. I have been told by the department that many protests have been received from other manufacturers to the effect that they have been compelled to pay sales tax while some manufacturers of brakeshoes

who have been manufacturing to the extent of up to a quarter of a million dollars have not been paying sales tax. Therefore regulations have been promulgated by the department in order to attempt to correct the situation. I will review the situation again and be in a position to give the hon. member a more definitive and definite answer after I have read the terms of this question.



CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
George Clyde Nowlan: Mr. Speaker, the other day the hon. member for Wetaskiwin asked me a question with respect to the transfer of a broadcasting station in his constituency. At the time I told him that I should be obliged to make inquiries and would answer in due course.
I am advised by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation that this matter has been the subject of representations from many hon. members of the house. I myself have received representations from the hon. member for Calgary South (Mr. Smith) as well as from the hon. member for Wetaskiwin, although with a slightly different point of view. Nevertheless they have all been greatly interested in this matter.
The corporation advise me that there are definite plans for improvement of radio coverage for all of the province of Alberta. The corporation has explored the possibility of establishing one or more new stations. A number of areas have been studied, but to date no firm decision has been reached as to the location of new areas or the moving of old transmitters to other areas.


Mr. J. S. Speakman (Wetaskiwin):: In view of the economic impact on these small areas, would the minister assure the house that the consideration will be very serious indeed?


George Clyde Nowlan: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the economic impact, and that is one factor that will have to be taken into consideration by the corporation. But of course the paramount consideration is the provision to the largest possible number of people with the services of the finest broadcasting system in the world, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation.
(Translation):



NEWSPAPER REPORTS ON HOUSE PROCEEDINGS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Georges J. Valade (Si. Mary):: Mr. Speaker, yesterday I asked the Minister of
Inquiries of the Ministry National Revenue a question and I was surprised to find my question answered by the press in today's papers.
I hope the minister will also be able to answer the question and tell us whether he is right or whether we must accept the interpretation of the press.
Also, on a question of privilege, Mr. Speaker. Following up that question I asked an additional one, which may be found at page 2306 of Hansard of February 22:
If this permission is not allowed-
(Text):


Mr. Speaker:: Order. Would the hon. member allow the minister to answer before he enters into another matter.


George Clyde Nowlan: Mr. Speaker, I have not had an opportunity of reading the newspapers today to the same extent as the hon. member because I have been busy on other matters. I will certainly read the reports to which he has referred and give an answer in due course.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. Is the hon. member rising to ask a further question, or on a question of privilege?


Georges-J. Valade: On a question of privilege, Mr. Speaker.
(Translation):
Mr. Speaker, following that supplementary question, yesterday, I asked another one which appears at page 2306 of Hansard of February 22:
If this permission is not allowed, would the minister take disciplinary action against those responsible?
On page 52 of La Presse of today, I am reported as saying:
Would the minister also have punitive sanctions imposed?
This is obviously different and quite contrary to my question.
(Text):


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I think the hon. member's question of yesterday was not allowed, but perhaps the press pays no attention to the rulings of the Chair.



TELEVISING OF BIG FOUR FOOTBALL GAMES

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
George Clyde Nowlan: Perhaps I might take this opportunity to refer to a question asked by

Inquiries of the Ministry the hon. member lor Fort William about the purchase by private broadcasting stations of rights to televise football games. This may bring a certain amount of sorrow to people who have always been urging the development of private stations at the expense of the C.B.C. Briefly, however, one private station has paid for the right to telecast football games and the C.B.C. has not been informed of their plans, as, of course, it has no right to be informed of them. It would appear to me at the moment as though these games are going to be sent out by one or more of the private stations.
The C.B.C. is giving very careful attention to this matter and, naturally, is concerned to see that the Canadian public gets the best possible showing of these athletic contests, subject to financial interests and competition. (Translation):



DEFENCE PRODUCTION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, I should like to put a question to the Minister of Defence Production as a result of the negotiations that took place in Washington between Canadian and American delegates and of the statement made by the Prime Minister. Could the minister inform us whether some progress has been made about the contract or swap deal relating to the CL-44 aircraft manufactured in Montreal and the American jet fighters? I should like to know also whether the minister is about to make a statement on this matter on behalf of the government?


Hon. Raymond O'Hurley (Minister of Defence Production):: Mr. Speaker, we always welcome proposals from our American friends which are likely to assist our industry, whether it be the aviation industry, the shipbuilding industry or any other. We have received certain proposals that will be looked into and when this study is completed, we shall then report to those concerned.
(Text):



CAPE BRETON


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. L. B. Pearson (Leader of the
Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I wonder whether the Prime Minister is now in a position to answer the question which I asked last Wednesday, whether any request for a coal conference has been made by the premier of Nova Scotia and whether any such conference is to be arranged.
[Mr. Nowlan.l
John George Diefenbaker: I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, I have not the answer before me. I will provide the answer tomorrow.



BILL OF RIGHTS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Harold E. Winch (Vancouver East):: Mr. Speaker, could the Prime Minister inform the house whether the constitutional authority of the government or the principles and powers of the bill of rights will be used for the protection against infringement of the right of trade unions in British Columbia to spend their own money?


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member's question seems to ask for an interpretation of the bill of rights and for action which, as I understand it, is in the provincial domain. If I am incorrect the hon. member will so advise me.


Harold Edward Winch: In the constitution there is overriding power of the federal government over all provincial legislation, including section 92.


Mr. Speaker:: That may be a constitutional opinion which the hon. member is seeking at the wrong time.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, in view of the anxiety of the Minister of Finance to discuss certain matters which he said were of tremendous importance to the house on the question of national emergency, namely the budget resolutions, may I ask the minister when he intends to bring those resolutions before the house. The minister has blamed the opposition on several occasions for not co-operating with the government in that respect. I ask him now when the government, either through him or the house leader, intends to bring these resolutions before the house.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Just as soon as there is some indication that we can expect even a minimum of co-operation from the official opposition-


Some hon. Members:: Closure.


Donald Methuen Fleming: -and when we can expect that some little progress might be made. Four days have already been spent in debate on one very short budget resolution.


Lester Bowles Pearson: A very important one.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition is continually speaking from a seated position. In my remarks of last Tuesday there were 88 interruptions by the Leader of the Opposition and the hon. member for Essex East (Mr. Martin) while seated.


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The minister seems to have departed from the initial question of privilege. In fact it seems to me he has departed from the question as to the business of the house.


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, on a question of privilege, this is now the fourth time-


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, I had not finished my comment-


Lionel Chevrier: Well, finish it.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The minister did comment on the question raised about the order of the business of the house and he then departed from that subject. That was the reason I interrupted him. If he has further comment to make which is relevant, I shall of course give him the floor again.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I was interrupted by the Leader of the Opposition making an interjection from a seated position. I was, on a point of order, taking objection to that repeated tactic on his part. I have indicated that four days have already been spent-


Lionel Chevrier: That is not so.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, are we to have any semblance of observance of the rules by the hon. member for Laurier?


Lionel Chevrier: If you sit down I will tell you.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Four days-may we have order, Mr. Speaker?


Lionel Chevrier: If you stick to the facts you will.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Four days of the time of the house have already been spent in committee of ways and means in discussion of one budget resolution-a short one-and it was quite evident as this proceeded that progress in this respect was being delayed by deliberate filibuster.


Mr. Speaker:: I am sorry to interrupt the minister again, but really the matter before the house is not debatable. There was an inquiry, and the hon. minister has answered it.
Inquiries of the Ministry


Lionel Chevrier: The Minister of Finance has made an inaccurate statement which reflects on the conduct of the opposition, and it is this; that four days were spent in the discussion of one small resolution. That statement is inaccurate and not in accordance with the fact. If the hon. gentleman will consult Hansard he will see that one of the days, namely Wednesday, was devoted to the extent of one hour only to the discussion of that resolution. That is what the minister calls one day.
I wish to ask this question. In view of the fact that the budget resolutions have not been discussed in this house for almost two weeks now, will the minister tell the house when we can expect a discussion on these resolutions?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, you allowed the hon. member for Laurier to make a statement which, I say, was a misstatement, before he asked his question, and in the exercise of the same privilege I say again that four days of the time of the house have been spent on this. On Wednesday last, to which the hon. member referred, all the time after the preliminary proceedings, including question time and the orders of the day, was devoted to this subject right up to adjournment at six o'clock. Last week I should have been only too happy to have had the opportunity-


Lionel Chevrier: Little Napoleon.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, I do not know whether you hear the insulting remarks of the hon. member for Laurier-[DOT] perhaps you did not hear them, Mr. Speaker-[DOT]


Mr. Speaker:: Order. If the minister has an explanation to make about the calling of these resolutions I trust he will make it and that we shall not spend the time of the house debating the meaning of matters which are clearly set out in Hansard for both parties to read and interpret.


Donald Methuen Fleming: The government has attached much more urgency to the progress of the budget resolutions through the various stages of debate than has the opposition. This belated interest on the part of the opposition is welcome.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I will call orders of the day if there is nothing more to be discussed than the subject of how the government's business should be ordered.



INDUSTRY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. D. M. Fisher (Port Arthur):: I should like to ask the Prime Minister a question

Inquiries of the Ministry which stems from a statement made by Premier Frost in the Ontario legislature last Friday, when he said that he had interceded before and would intercede again with the federal authorities on the role of the federal government in protecting the employees of Canadian Car Company in Fort William against a closing of the plant by the Montreal management. Has the Prime Minister received recent representations from Premier Frost on this subject and, if so, could he give us the gist of his reply?


John George Diefenbaker: I will take the question as notice, Mr. Speaker.



BROADCASTING


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John Whitney Pickersgill: I wonder if I could ask the Minister of National Revenue a question of which I gave his parliamentary seceretary notice. Has the minister received a report of the committee composed of the various bodies officially interested in broadcasting-the B.B.G., C.B.C., C.A.B. and, I believe representatives of the Department of Transport-set up to consider the question of bringing telemeter services, wire hook-ups and things of that sort under the Broadcasting Act? If he has received such a report, would the minister consider having it referred to the committee on broadcasting for such action as they may wish to take?


George Clyde Nowlan: I am afraid I was tied up this morning. I did not get notice of the question, but my recollection is that I have on my desk now a report from the chairman of the board of broadcast governors acting, I think, as chairman of the over-all committee, making certain recommendations or suggestions to me. I have not had time to study it and I am not certain of what is contained in the report, but I think there will be no objection to referring this matter to the committee for consideration and I will take that question under advisement at once. Unless there is some reason why I cannot do so, I will undertake this immediately.



WINNIPEG


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Lionel Chevrier: Is the Minister of National Revenue now in a position to reply to the question I asked yesterday about representations concerning station CKY-FM in Winnipeg?


George Clyde Nowlan: Frankly, I have not yet had an opportunity to deal with it. I asked someone to brief me on the situation and get the material ready, but I have not had a chance to look at it. I probably shall not be able to deal with the matter until Monday or Tuesday of next week.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Rea in the chair.



DEPARTMENT OF CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION

[Stage Direction]
Indian affairs branch-
55. Administration, $792,099.
The Deputy Chairman:: This item will be found on page 14 of the blue book, and the details on page 151. Shall item 55 carry?


Douglas Mason Fisher: I want to ask the minister a couple of questions in connection with-


Charles Edward Rea: Order. Will hon. members who are leaving the chamber please do their talking outside.


John Whitney Pickersgill: This applies particularly to the government chief whip.


Charles Edward Rea: We cannot hear the hon. member who has the floor.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Can the minister give me a report on how the Macdiarmid situation is going in so far as the house building project there is concerned, and the situation at the school at Macdiarmid? I will not say there is some confusion, but there is a rather unusual arrangement there where they have a public school with a Catholic priest as the head of it. It is a most unusual situation. It was working fairly well, but I understand there may be some shifts and changes, and I should like to know a bit more about it.


Mrs. Fairclough:: I do not believe I can answer that in a few words. If the hon. member will permit me I will send him a full report.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I appreciate that very much. Can the minister bring me up to date on where the department is going with its forestry policy? She will recall that I brought this up a number of times and expressed certain dissatisfaction with the subject of Indian lands not being brought under forest management. I should like to know what further steps have been taken and what effect the launching of the forestry department has had, if any, in bringing more assistance to bear in getting Indian lands forest managed.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Of course the whole question is one of establishing proper working relationships with the provinces. In so far as the new forestry department is concerned, I am not in a position to answer for it. In reply, I would suggest that the hon. member might interrogate the minister of that department when his estimates are before the committee.
With reference to the timber operations at Lac Seul and Sioux Lookout agency, the superintendent of the Sioux Lookout Indian agency reports that the timber permit operations on the reserve were quite successful last season. The Indians operated in two separate areas. One group sold the wood produced to Mr. Bowman of Hudson, and the other group to Mr. Saran, Port Arthur. The pulpwood eventually was delivered to both Great Lakes Pulp and Paper Company and Abitibi Paper Company. The Indians have expressed satisfaction with both Mr. Bowman and Mr. Saran.
It had been proposed to put a portion of the timber on this reserve up for sale but the band has gone on record as opposing any sale. They plan to continue with permit operations on the same basis as last season.


Douglas Mason Fisher: A very good development. As to some of the bands in the Nipigon lake area, particularly the Gull bay group and one group on the other side of lake Macdiarmid, I wonder whether any consideration is being given to negotiating with the province for some crown lands which those people could cut and sort of reserve. Their lands are too small, especially Macdiarmid, to be of any great use as a source of pulp. I bring this up because quite a strong effort is being made by the pulp and paper companies of northwestern Ontario to buy more of what one could call privately cut pulpwood rather than using wood off their own limits. Since much of this privately cut wood is obtained from, I might say, settlers, farmers and other people who have managed to obtain short term leases on crown lands, it seems to me there is no reason why the same leases could not be negotiated by the Indian affairs branch for some of the Indian groups. I wonder whether anything is in prospect in that field in the area.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, I would have to look into the files to find out whether we have had any applications from groups of Indians for that type of operation. As the hon. member knows, the limits are under the jurisdiction of the provincial government. As I said at the outset, this depends to a very great extent on what arrangement can be made with the provincial government for limits. We will be glad to look into it. If we have 90205-6-149
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration had any applications from bands I must say they have not come to my attention. In any event, I know the department would have taken immediate steps to see what arrangements could be made with the province of Ontario.


Harold Edward Winch: Am I correct in interpreting what the minister has just said to mean that the control of all timber on Indian lands comes under the jurisdiction of the province?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: No.


Harold Edward Winch: If not, may I have a short explanation of where the division is as among the federal Department of Forestry, the provincial department of forestry and the Indian affairs branch? If the major control is in the hands of the minister, is any consideration being given to the further development of a plan of woods lot farming on the Indian lands, as far as timber is concerned?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Any stands on Indian lands certainly belong to the Indians. What I was referring to was the point brought up by the hon. member for Port Arthur, whether or not we had made application to the province to lease limits on crown lands controlled by the province. I think that was his point, and that was the question I was answering. So far as stands on Indian lands are concerned, we do get assistance from the Department of Forestry with respect to surveys, but the ownership of these stands is certainly in the hands of the Indians.


Mr. Baldwin:: Mr. Chairman, I should like to make a few observations related to what was said the last time this item was before the committee. A suggestion was advanced by the hon. member for Vancouver East and supported by the hon. member for Skeena that a royal commission might well be appointed to deal with what the hon. member for Vancouver East said was a serious problem in connection with crown lands in British Columbia, in respect of which the Indians had advanced certain claims.
May I point out here that this subject matter was dealt with by the joint committee either last year or the year before. There was, of course, no final disposition, and there could not be; but the matter was mentioned and I think in one or two cases it was dealt with at considerable length in the briefs that were filed.
I submit with respect that when the joint committee considered the matter it became seized of jurisdiction, to some extent; and while I suppose its jurisdiction ceased when the committee lapsed at the end of the session I suggest with deference that this matter might well be pursued by the joint committee when it reconvenes in the not too distant
2348	HOUSE OF
Supply*-Citizenship and Immigration future, I understand. The committee is able to deal with it adequately. If it should happen that the members of the committee discover, as a result of examination of the problem and of witnesses appearing in support of the views set out in the briefs, that something else should be done, I have no doubt that could be the subject matter of a recommendation. But my submission at this time is that surely this is one of the problems that should be dealt with by the committee inasmuch as it has already inquired into it. There is evidence already on record either in the proceedings of 1959 or of last year.
I believe it was the hon. member for Kootenay West who suggested that arrangements should be made so that the Indians would be represented in the House of Commons by a certain number of their race. I believe that matter was also discussed to some extent in the committee two years ago. I remember asking one of the witnesses a question and he took the position that it was not a good idea. He suggested that it might well lead to the sort of electoral cantonization that exists in Switzerland, and that if we were to try to arrange for representation in the house of all the various nationalities it might lead to difficulties.
On the other hand there is this point to consider. It may well be some years yet before there is likely to be representation by Indians in the house in keeping with the number of Indians who have now been granted the vote, and possibly the committee might consider this subject matter having in mind the situation in New Zealand. I do not suggest they should necessarily follow what is done there but certainly this is a point with which the committee might well deal.
There is one other aspect of the work of the committee to which I wish to refer. A suggestion was advanced by one member that an independent agency might be selected to digest the evidence given in previous sessions and give opinions thereon, and the minister quite properly pointed out that this was a matter for the committee to deal with. I should like to point out that a massive amount of evidence and a tremendous number of briefs have been introduced, and while I do not think the committee should surrender its authority to any independent agency to digest and give opinions as to the effect of the evidence, considerable assistance might be given if the department were willing to help in the preparation of a reasonably detailed index of the evidence already given to the committee. To go through the evidence and formulate opinions will be a formidable task. I recognize, of course, that this is a matter for the committee, but possibly the minister


might give some consideration to this suggestion. Her departmental officials are acquainted with the briefs. They have had occasion to peruse them, have been present at all the meetings of the committee, and have rendered valuable assistance. A detailed index of the proceedings would certainly be of assistance to the committee.
I wish to make one other general observation and two particular observations. I am interested in many other matters but they can be suitably ventilated before the committee. May I say I was most gratified in examining the estimates of the minister to see what a substantial amount is being devoted to the education of the Indians. I think this was emphasized in the statement of the minister when she devoted at least half the time taken in presenting her statement to the question of education. I think this is most essential and important, because it is at that level that we are going to be able to do something. However, I might point out that if possible we should do even more than we are doing now, not only because of the humanitarian principles involved, not only because we have a duty to undo some of the neglect which has been the lot of the Indians in the past, a neglect which in recent years, I am happy to say, has certainly been dealt with more than adequately. Those are ample motives in themselves, but there is another reason I should like to mention which may be of some assistance to the minister when she is asking for those funds which are essential for the discharge of her responsibilities.
This country has a pre-eminent position among the small and middle siz;e nations of the world today. One reason for that is undoubtedly that the ugly head of racial and colour bias and prejudice has not been observed in Canada. Unfortunately too many other leading countries in the western world are not in that position. In recent days there has been an appalling and atrocious series of riots involving bloodshed which have swept through the world and indicate the possibility of warfare on the basis of race and colour. In the face of this situation I think it is most important for us to remember that in part we occupy the position we do because of the regard which other nations of the world have for us in this respect. If anything, this should be an invitation to the minister to be even more zealous and indefatigable in dealing with this problem, and the same thing applies to her officials. The situation is one where time is not on our side; and in commending the attitude of the department I hope they will have that in mind and that their efforts will be increased even more.

I wish to mention one more point having to do particularly with the question of education in my own area. I have been in touch with the minister and her officials about the matter and have been adequately satisfied as to their appreciation of the problem, but I think I should put my views on record in a general way.
In the northern part of my constituency there are several thousand Indians who until recently lived in a nomadic state in which they engaged in trapping, hunting and fishing. Only in the last generation can it be said that they have come nearer to the settlements in the north such as Fort Vermilion, Harbay and Assumption. In pursuit of the desire to see that these Indians receive an adequate education, arrangements have been made from time to time to take students in the higher grades to Edmonton, Calgary and other larger centres. It is my belief that in some cases a period of transition should elapse before these Indian boys and girls are considered to be adequately equipped to absorb the white culture which is found in the larger centres. I feel that at least for one more generation many of these boys and girls might well fit into the pattern of integration in an area closer to their own homes, where I think the results to be achieved will be more apparent.
I was glad to hear the hon. member for Kenora-Rainy River say the other day that he had finally been able to consummate his request for a dormitory and hostel in connection with a residential school. I am glad to move into the vacant room which he has iust left. I would urge the department officials to give some consideration to a similar type of accommodation in the Fort Vermilion irea. I have been in touch with them as I say, md I have had the satisfaction of receiving acknowledgment from them that they are aware of the problem. But may I say that I lonestly and sincerely believe that it may ''et be some time before these young boys md girls are adequately equipped to receive and benefit from the education they will atherwise be getting in places like Edmonton.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I should like to thank the ion. member for Peace River and tell him hat he has anticipated us just a bit. We have arepared a digest of the proceedings of the ast two years, as well as an index, which vill be made available to the members of he committee when it meets for the first time.


Mr. Siefanson:: 
Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, I should like to give the hon. member a little information which I have here. With reference to the use of trap nets, the officials of the department have been in consultation with officials of the government of Manitoba and also with the manufacturers of the nets. It is the opinion of these people that with a few adjustments the nets which were used will be suitable for use this year. Accordingly we think that probably that problem has been solved. We hope so.
With reference to livestock, I would report that the amount requested for livestock purchases for this coming fiscal year is $221,775. This compares with $83,650 provided in 196061, or an increase of $138,125. These funds will be used almost entirely for the purchase of cattle, including bulls, largely in western Canada.
This very sharp rise in the amount requested reflects the intensification of oui efforts to encourage cattle raising by interested Indians who have an aptitude for this occupation. A large part of the funds

will be spent for rotating herds to be lent to Indian individuals. Many Indians will finance cattle purchases through revolving fund loans and band loans, and in exceptional circumstances they will be provided with supplementary assistance from appropriations. The trend in recent years has been toward larger herds in the hands of carefully selected individuals, and this pattern will prevail in the coming year.


Douglas Mason Fisher: The minister indicated earlier, in connection with forestry, that co-operation with the provincial authorities was necessary on forest surveys. There was a loan last year of $50,000 for forest surveys. I think it is $17,000 this year. I notice that three forestry officers for the department are provided in these estimates, which is an increase of one.
How much of the money, $50,000 last year and $17,000 this year, has gone to the provincial governments for services in connection with surveys, or has this survey money been spent by the minister's own forestry officers? If so, I would be rather staggered by that amount of money.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I think the hon. member misunderstood me. I said that our own new Department of Forestry was undertaking surveys for us. The reason for the reduction from $50,000 to $17,000 is that the work which was formerly done for us by the provincial government of British Columbia and other outside agencies is now being done by our own staff. Consequently this expenditure was reduced considerably.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Could the minister say, in general terms-let us say, in silviculture terms -what we got for that $50,000 expenditure on surveys. Were these just surveys to develop forestry maps of the areas, or did they extend further into survey plans for roads, logging possibilities and this type of thing?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I have not the figures broken down completely, but most of this work was carried out in British Columbia. It was largely for the purpose of establishing just what was available in the respective areas.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Has the minister any indication of what is going to be spent in Ontario? The minister gave statistics in the house previously on the number of square miles of forested areas on reserves in Ontario, and they were considerable.
This whole question of forestry and forest reserves has been opened up by the government, not only with the creation of the Department of Forestry but in all the plans announced by the Minister of Agriculture. I feel that forestry in all its aspects could
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration be one of the most important means of livelihood for Indians in Ontario. Perhaps the minister could indicate how the policy has been directed to fit in with these other developments.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: While we are looking to see if we have the figures for Ontario for last year I might tell the hon. member that the $17,000 which is in the estimates this year comprises $10,000 for forest surveys and $7,000 for reforestation. This covers all provinces. I have not the figures broken down here.


Douglas Mason Fisher: That is a very minor sum for reforestation. I would hope that in future that would go up. I can understand our not spending money now, in view of the legislation which is pending that may encourage other people to spend this money.
I wonder whether we are now going to have a forestry section within the branch; and if it is expanding, what plans are under way to see that at the technical level young Indians are being trained in the forestry field? We have a school of forestry for people at the technical level, the scaler or cruiser level, at the lakehead; there is another such school in New Brunswick and I believe there is at least one in British Columbia.
I wonder whether any young Indians are being trained in these schools to work in this field, or are they merely being used for axe-men, and that type of thing, in forestry planning?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: We have some Indians in training in fire fighting, but the staff engaged in forestry at the present time consists of two foresters and provision for a third. They are under the reserves and trust division of the department. I think it would be safe to say that as time goes on and as the work is developed we will certainly train Indians, if we can find Indians who are capable of doing the work which is required of them with the appropriate training.


Douglas Mason Fisher: The reason I raise the point is that we notice that a great many Indians are taking courses in nursing and teaching, and they come back to work with their own people. Surely forestry would be one of the best fields for them.
I thank the minister for her answer and I should like to turn now to another topic. I have raised this topic on a number of occasions. I refer to the whole question of Indians having the vote and to the role being played by Indian agents. It will vary in certain parts of the country, but some Indian agents have a great deal of influence with the people with whom they are associated.
2352	HOUSE OF
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration
I gather from talking to the hon. member for Skeena and other members from British Columbia that Indians in British Columbia have a more independent outlook than some of those in northern Ontario. At least we were comparing judgments. This is not the question at issue, but I am concerned over the influences which will be brought to bear on Indians in remote areas at election time.
Let the minister try to imagine my constituency. It runs from Fort Severn on Hudson bay down almost to Moose Factory; it is a block almost one third of the size of all of Ontario, with Indians scattered all over the place. Now these Indians have a vote, and I think it is impossible for any politician or any political party to cover them in any way. Yet I know the returning officer, a man of great integrity and seriousness, is going to provide polls for these people wherever possible. My argument is that because it is almost impossible for political parties to influence these people the part played by the Indian agents who are in touch with them, in playing it straight and non-partisan, is very important. I pointed out to the minister that, previously, in the provincial elections when Indians had the vote at these distant places we have had such eccentricities as 200 votes going to one candidate and one, or zero, going to others- and this among a population which is almost illiterate in the main. This, naturally, cannot help but arouse suspicion in the minds, especially, of those parties who get one vote or none at all.
I should like to know whether there has been any memorandum sent to Indian agents in connection with the part they will play in advising or informing Indians of their right to vote at forthcoming federal elections and at the same time to warn the agents that they should play it strictly down the middle and non-partisan. I have no worries about the Indian affairs people in Ottawa being neutral. Perhaps they might be too neutral. But I am concerned that there should be neutrality shown by those who are out in the field. I wonder if the minister has considered sending out such a memorandum?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I am sure I can vouch for the integrity of the employees of the department in that field. After all, they are civil servants and they recognize the rules under which they work. I do not for a moment doubt that. As in all other departments, if there is evidence at any time of partisan activity then, of course, there are means of taking care of that situation.
I come back to the subject of forestry. I had intended to say something about it when we got to the question of scholarships, but I will say it now. As the hon. member knows, we
tMr. Fisher.]

have a scholarship fund from which scholarships are awarded annually to students who qualify in authorized fields of endeavour. It is our intention this year to make scholarships available in the field of forestry.
(Translation):


Mr. Pigeon:: Mr. Chairman, I should like to say a few words with regard to the Doncaster reserve, which has been set aside for the benefit of the Indian bands of Caughnawaga and Oka.
That reserve covers an area of 18,000 acres and extends into the ridings of Montcalm and Terrebonne. It is located in line with the parishes of Notre Dame de la Mercie and Ste Luce. A road has already been built which goes through the reserve to connect those two municipalities. Today, that road is in a very bad condition and the people of Notre Dame de la Mercie and of St. Donat have to make a detour of several miles to go to Ste Luce, in the riding of Terrebone, or vice versa.
The poor condition of that road hinders the tourist industry in those two municipalities, an industry which is of vital importance to them. At present, the citizens of Notre Dame de la Mercie and of St. Donat, in the constituency of Montcalm, as well as the people of other surrounding municipalities have to make a detour of several miles to communicate with the municipality of Ste. Luce. After having made some inquiries, I was recently advised that the provincial government of Quebec enjoyed the statutory power of expropriating the lands necessary for the establishment of public facilities, including roads. That statutory power may be exercised by the province with the consent of the governor in council, as provided under clause 35 of the Indian Act.
On a good many occasions I approached the department and I would ask the minister, if it is at all possible, to obtain from the government an authorization for rebuilding that road so that the development of the parish of Ste. Luce, in the riding of Terrebonne, and the parish of Notre Dame de la Mercie, in the constituency of Montcalm, should not be hindered.
I recently received a resolution from the municipal corporation of Notre Dame de la Mercie. It is dated February 17, 1961, and reads as follows:
Excerpt ot the minutes of the regular meeting held on Saturday this fourth day of February 1961, under the chairmanship of Mr. Albert Leguerrier, mayor, it was moved by Mr. Edmond Poudrier, seconded by Mr. Claude Boucher, and unanimously agreed to, that our member of parliament, Mr. Pigeon, be asked to approach the federal government to the effect of having the existing road between Notre Dame de la Mercie, Ste. Luce and Ste. Agathe reopened so that we may have access to Ste. Luce and Ste. Agathe.

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration
Putting, as always, our trust in your co-operation, we remain,
The municipal council of Notre Dame de la Mercie.
And it is signed: Jacques Riopel, secretary.
As you know, a tourist development has been shaping up for the last few years in that district, including the parishes of Ste. Luce and Notre Dame de la Mercie. I cannot understand why the construction of a road across an Indian reserve in the north of Montreal is not authorized. To my mind, this situation is contrary to the public interest, because those municipalities are now unable to expand their tourist industry.
I know that Indians always frown upon the government deciding to proceed with any sort of construction project, as was illustrated when the St. Lawrence seaway was established. However, in my opinion the road , which is already in existence but in very bad shape, is not passable.
I am therefore asking, if possible, that the road be reconditioned, because I do not think it could prejudice the Indian reserves of Oka and Caughnawaga, more particularly as there is only one Indian living in Ste. Luce, where he acts as a reserve warden.
I am simply submitting the matter in the public interest. It seems to me we should not prejudice public interest in any part of this country just because the Indians are opposed to the reconditioning of an already existing roadway.
I know that in co-operation with the experts in her department the minister is considering all problems that are submitted to her, and I hope that this matter will be settled once for all, because the problem has been mentioned at least 20 times.
(Text):


Ellen Louks Fairclough: This is not a new problem by any means, as the hon. member knows. It has been a vexing one for some time because the Indians steadfastly refuse to relinquish the land for the purpose of making this road, and that is their right. The land belongs to them and unless they agree to relinquish it I cannot see what I can do, other than what I have done, namely to keep the hon. member informed.
If the people in the area who would like the use of this land for the purpose of having a road, would approach the Indians themselves in a proper way, they might be able to secure their co-operation but I am afraid that as far as the minister is concerned there is nothing that can be done.
(Translation):


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Chairman, I have a supplementary question for the minister.
What steps do other provincial governments take when they want to build a road through an Indian reserve?
I would very much like to know how they come to an agreement concerning the building of roads, which, after all, will promote the development of the province. I would be interested in getting information on that matter and more particularly on the methods followed by the provinces of Ontario and British Columbia.
(Text):


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, the procedure is precisely as I described it to the hon. member. It is a matter of negotiation between the province and the Indian band concerned.


Harold Edward Winch: Mr. Chairman, I should like to get a clearer picture with respect to the supervisory and administrative power in relation to certain phases of Indian affairs. Who would make the decision with respect to a survey of timber reserves on Indian land? Who would decide whether or not the timber should be sold? Who makes decisions as to hunting and trapping rights on Indian lands? In a situation where the Indians cannot sell timber or hunt and trap and where the Indians are faced with hunger, who would initiate action and on what basis would the Indians be taken care of? I could illustrate my question by reading an article which appears in today's Ottawa Citizen:
Indian chief says Tories broke word.
A Manitoba Indian chief told an Indian-Metis conference Wednesday that a number of the 2,000 Indians on his island lake reserve have come to him to ask what they could eat this winter.
Chief Alfred McDougall, speaking in Cree through an interpreter, said the federal government has broken promise after promise.
The government, he charged, has refused to allow Indians to sell timber from their land and has watched without acting while the Indian's main source of livelihood-trapping and hunting-dwindled away.
Chief McDougall said he has been trying for three years to get the federal government to do something about the forest reserves on the Indian land.
This ties in with complaints we continuously hear. Who makes decisions with respect to the welfare of Indians and the utilization of resources on their reserves?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: In the first instance a request for action comes from the band council. It is not at all unusual that an individual on a reservation will have a difference of opinion with the council of his band. Sometimes we have formal resolutions from band councils and private letters from individuals which are completely at variance.

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration


Harold Edward Winch: Who has the authority, the band or the chief?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: In the first place the band would probably pass a resolution which would then be forwarded to the department. Certain deliberations or investigations would take place, as the case might be, depending on the type of problem that is involved. It is the duty of the officials of the department to see that the Indians are properly taken care of and that their resources are preserved wherever possible.
In the case of forests, I think it would be our responsibility to see that they were not depleted to the point where there was no chance of reforestation or ensuring a continuing supply.
I could not answer such a broad condemnation on the basis of an article in the newspaper without having details. I shall be very glad to make available to the hon. member whatever information we have on the particular individual who has made the charges and with respect to conditions on his reservation. The hon. member read a pretty broad statement and like all broad statements it is a bit difficult to deal with it. Without trying to make a flat statement in reply to a flat accusation, I might say that the general charge is not true.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, I have a question I should like to put to the minister, prompted by the questions asked by the hon. member for Joliette-L'Assomption-Montcalm. I remember some years ago there was a good deal of trouble about provincial roads which went through Indian reserves. I am not talking about proposed roads where there was not a right of way but of cases where rights of way already existed and there were roads of a sort.
My recollection is that the view that was taken at one time was that if this was a provincial highway the provincial government would have to make some contribution to it and the federal government would not simply build the highway through the reserve. I think that policy was somewhat relaxed in one or two cases.
I wonder if the minister could say what the general policy is now with respect to provincial highways that pass through Indian reserves. Who has the responsibility for their upkeep and what contribution does the federal government make? Could the minister say whether there are any outstanding problems in this field?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Generally speaking, Mr. Chairman, if it is a provincial highway the responsibility lies with the province for its maintenance. As the hon. member knows there


may be extenuating circumstances in certain areas where the road is not heavily travelled by the non-Indian community. As the hon. member knows, we have one area where the trans-Canada highway goes right through a reservation. In that instance I believe the land was purchased outright and of course the highway is the responsibility of the federal government.
The situation varies in different locations depending on the extent to which the road is valuable to the Indians on the reserve and the extent to which it is valuable to the non-Indians who seek to go through Indian lands to arrive at their destination.
At the present moment I cannot think of any particularly troublesome areas apart from the one enunciated by the hon. member for Joliette-L'Assomption-Montcalm, which has been a sore point for a long time. Other than that, I cannot recall any that are real problems at the moment.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Would the hon. lady bring me up to date on Pointe Bleue and the Indian reserve across the river from Three Rivers in Nicolet county, I think, although I am not sure of that. There was also a situation in Saskatchewan somewhere in the constituency of the Minister of Agriculture, about which I recall something. No doubt the officials will remember all of these very well.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: The hon. member is speaking of the road problems only?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Yes, in those three places.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, so far as we know, the problems in both cases have been solved.


John Whitney Pickersgill: There were three.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: In Saskatchewan, we have an agreement with the province on what is known as the grid road system under which the federal government and the province contribute on a fifty-fifty basis. With respect to Pointe Bleue, we have in the current estimates an allotment of $5,000 for the construction of approximately 600 feet of street in the new welfare housing site and $15,000 for the construction of approximately four miles of new road, including widening, ditching and installation of culverts.
The one the hon. member referred to is rather ancient, and to the best of our knowledge there is not a real problem there at the moment, not one that has cropped up lately.


John Whitney Pickersgill: What about the reserve in Nicolet county?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: There has been no problem lately that of which we are aware. We will have a look at it and if our files disclose something-


John Whitney Pickersgill: I do not want to take up the time of the committee, but if the minister would have a look at it I would be quite interested to see what happened there.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Very well.


John Whitney Pickersgill: And also who paid for whatever may have been done.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I will give the hon. member a report.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I now want to embark upon a subject for which the minister has been waiting for a long time. I should like to start by asking her if all the locatees in the Sarnia reserve, which was sold last year in an iniquitous deal that the minister approved, have been satisfied and paid off?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: They have all been satisfied and paid off, Mr. Chairman, for lands which have been conveyed.


John Whitney Pickersgill: That is really not an answer to my question. My question is whether all the locatees in the area that the agreement of sale covers have been satisfied and paid off?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, as the hon. member knows, because I think he went through the agreement with a fine tooth comb, there are no payments to be made-possibly I had better put it the other way around. The locatees do not require to be satisfied with reference to lands which have not been deeded. Some of the locatees are still holding land for which application has not been made but in so far as any lands which have been conveyed are concerned, the locatees have been satisfied.


John Whitney Pickersgill: What does the hon. lady mean by "lands for which application has not been made"? Does she mean that there is some part of the reserve not covered by the agreement for sale? I am talking about the whole area covered by the agreement for sale, whether titles have actually been given to all of it or not. Obviously no title can be given until the locatee is satisfied, at least I would not think so.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: No, Mr. Chairman, not by any manner or means have all of the lands been resold, let us say.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I am not talking about resold.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: 1 can give the hon. member a report on just what lands have been 90205-6-150
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration conveyed but as he knows, from the contract -and here I must say, Mr. Chairman, I have not looked at this for a while; I am now speaking from memory and therefore I hope if 1 make a slip I will not be charged with having misconstrued the facts. As a matter of fact, if my memory serves me well, the contract permitted the purchaser to designate the lands to which he wished title, and upon having satisfied the terms of the contract, having made payment therefor and having satisfied the locatee, he then acquired title to the lands, which he presumably then immediately resold. I have the details here. Under the terms of the agreement the purchaser has the right to request conveyance of portions of lands sold, or for such conveyance to be made direct to the nominee upon paying in full the individual Indian's interest in the portion required, plus $800, $1,000 or $1,200 per acre, depending upon the area in which the land is located. This is in payment of the common band interest. Under this provision sales have taken place, sales to the Hydro-Electric Power Commission of Ontario of 173.82 acres; to the Dow Chemical of Canada Limited, 66.66 acres; to the St. Clair Chemical Limited, 10 acres; to the Sun Oil Company Limited, 112 acres; making a total of 362.48 acres which have been conveyed. Up to January 1, 1961, all instalment payments, including half yearly interest payments, as provided for in the agreement, have been made, as well as payment required in connection with portions resold, leaving a balance of principal outstanding at $4,361,467.82. The total payments made to date are, on principal, including the down payment, $2,160,478.18; interest, $351,626.61; making a total received of $2,512,104.79, from which it will be noted that about one third of the principal has been paid and a little over 10 per cent of the land has been alienated from the reserve.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I come back again to the question with which I started. I also want to be quite accurate about this. I understand that any locatee who had any individual rights to any of the land that has been conveyed had his rights extinguished and has been satisfied with what he got; otherwise it could not be conveyed, I assume. If I am wrong about this I should like to be told I am wrong.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: No, that is right.


John Whitney Pickersgill: There is 10 per cent of the the land covered by the agreement of sale which has in fact been conveyed, according to the information just given to us. As to the other 90 per cent of the land which is covered by the agreement of sale, how many
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Supply-Citizenship and Immigration locatees are there with whom there is no agreement as to what they will receive?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I do not believe we have the information as to precisely how many locatees there were. I can secure that information. As a matter of general information. I am told there was only one locatee who did not sign a surrender. All of the other locatees did sign surrenders.


John Whitney Pickersgill: What that means-again I am assuming this-is that every other locatee has agreed that in due course when there is necessity to convey he will convey and at a fixed, specific amount?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: That is right.


John Whitney Pickersgill: So that to the best of the hon. lady's recollection there is only one locatee who has not reached an agreement?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: That is right.


John Whitney Pickersgill: That is the situation?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Yes, that is right.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I have been looking over the debate of last year and I want to refresh my own memory again about certain of the facts in connection with this case. The minister will recall that last year I read a statement from the Toronto Telegram which quoted Mr. Macaulay, the minister of energy resources, I think it is, in the Ontario government, as having said that hydro officials had twice been refused permission to expropriate by Colonel H. M. Jones, director of Indian affairs. The hon. lady said at that time, as reported at page 5038 of Hansard:
That is not true.
The hon. lady stands by that statement?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I stand by it.


John Whitney Pickersgill: That there was never any approach whatever by the hydro with a view to getting expropriation?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I think I told the hon. member at the time that there had been something in the nature of a telephone call saying, "if we did apply," or some such thing, "would you consider making a recommendation?" But no formal approach was made.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Was any approach made at any time by Ontario hydro, not with a view to getting the federal government to expropriate on their behalf but with a view to getting a surrender to hydro?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: With a view to getting a surrender of the lands they wished?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Yes.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Again, I would have to go back in the records. My officials will tell


me if my memory does not serve me well but I think that, first of all, the Indians started to deal with hydro for the lands which hydro desired and then before an agreement was reached the Indians called a halt to the negotiations and proceeded to deal with the other company.


John Whitney Pickersgill: When the hon. lady says that hydro began to deal with the Indians, may I say that "deal with the Indians" is a very vague term. Was someone authorized by vote of the band council to negotiate with hydro? What does the hon. lady mean by "deal with the Indians"?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: They had gone so far as to adopt a council resolution authorizing hydro to negotiate with the locatees and then they reversed their position and withdrew that permission.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Of course, at every meeting of the band council the Indian agent or superintendent would be present, so this was done with the knowledge of the department at the time.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Oh, I presume so. I would have to look up the records.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I am sure the hon. lady can find out whether or not this was the case by consulting the director.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Again, I cannot say definitely but it is the usual procedure as the hon. member knows. I presume the Indian superintendent was present. He would certainly be present. He would not be absent through neglect or by design. He would be at every meeting, I would think.


John Whitney Pickersgill: What I am getting at is this. I am not saying anything about the minister herself, but there was every reason why the department should have known that Ontario hydro was interested in a certain part of the land before the negotiations with the Dimensional Company ever started. That is the point I want to establish.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: That is correct.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Because I argued last year and I intend to argue again, I think with more force this time because of what has taken place in Ontario, that the department, knowing as it did that Ontario hydro was interested in a part of this land, was in the position that there was an inescapable duty on the department and on the minister as trustee for the Indians to make quite sure, before agreeing to sell this land to someone else, that a better deal could not have been made by the Indians with hydro.
It was alleged very strongly in the Ontario legislature last year that Ontario hydro had

paid an exorbitant sum for the land that they bought from the Dimensional Company. The facts are all on Hansard for last year and it is not in dispute that land which was sold for about $2,000 an acre to Dimensional with the approval of the department appears to have been resold three days before the original sale, according to certain evidence that was put on Hansard and has never been contradicted to my knowledge, for $5,000 an acre more. It was on the basis of that position that I and one or two other members made the statement last year that either hydro had paid an utterly exorbitant sum for this land, a price which could not be defended, or the Indians had been gypped.
We know that a sufficiently serious view of this whole matter was taken by the premier of Ontario that he caused a royal commission to be appointed to inquire into the question of whether hydro had made an improper deal. That commission has reported, and I must say I have not read its report and do not intend to because that is not within our purview here. I have plenty to do reading those things that fall within the purview of parliament. However, judging from what the newspapers say, the commission reported that hydro had made a provident deal. I think some of us might still have some doubts about that but, as I say, that is not our business. It is the business of the members of the Ontario legislature and it is not our business. But I do say that if it is the case that hydro paid over $7,000 an acre for the land and made an agreement to pay three days before the sale to Dimensional was approved by the minister the Indians were gypped of about $5,000 an acre.
I do not want to suggest for one minute, any more than I did last year, that there was any wrongdoing on the part of the minister or the department but I do say that on the face of that evidence it is very hard not to feel that there was gross negligence, that the department should have taken the trouble to find out from hydro, which after all is a well known and presumably respectable body, what they were willing to pay for this property before a sale was made to a company which, judging from the evidence that was splashed all over the newspapers in Toronto and elsewhere at the time of the royal commission, was not one of the most ancient and reputable organizations in this country. I say that particularly in view of the fact that if the uncontradicted evidence that was put on Hansard is true, namely, that hydro agreed to make payment to this company three days before the federal agreement was made with Dimensional, then this does seem to me to be a really shocking way to treat a trust to the Indians.
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I do not intend to spend a lot of time going into the details. I believe this matter ought to be inquired into not just by a provincial royal commission but by the federal government in order to find out whether or not this company already had an agreement with hydro on the basis of which it got a large part of its down payment before the agreement was ever concluded between the minister on behalf of the Indians and the Dimensional Company.
As I say, I think the whole sale was indefensible regardless of whether this hydro incident had occurred at all because I believe the price was not nearly high enough. I think that that valuable land, on which municipal taxes did not have to be paid as long as it was an Indian reservation, should at least never have been sold for less than the amount for which the previous government was willing to sell it. As I said last year and I repeat, I was very glad that the deal fell through because on second thought I felt it was inadvisable to sell at all. I think that land right on the edge of Sarnia, a city developing as that place is, should have been kept in trust in perpetuity for the Indians and that long term leases should have been made on a provident basis so that the Indians would have got the benefit of all this increment and not people like this Dimensional Company.
Whether or not it is true I do not know but I read in a very reputable newspaper the other day, the Globe and Mail, I think, that some mining company was now seeking to acquire a part of this land from Dimensional and, I feel fairly certain, not at the same price that only a year ago Dimensional paid to the Indians. I think this whole transaction was a highly improvident one for the government to have made. I think it would be a bad thing to do with land that was held in trust for all the people of Canada. But when you consider that this was a sale of a part of an Indian reserve held in trust for the Indians, and on the basis of what we know now, reinforced by this whitewashing report of the provincial royal commission,-if that is the right term to apply to it-it seems to me that if hydro made a provident deal, the minister made a most improvident one.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I cannot subscribe to that statement, Mr. Chairman. My hon. friend is rehashing a matter that was thoroughly discussed in the House of Commons last year. If he wants to make a statement to the effect that the Indians were cheated, then I make a statement to the effect that his remarks are decidedly irresponsible. The hon. member likes to talk about the deal which he proposed. His deal fell through. It turned out that the

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration people with whom he was dealing did not have any money or it never reached the first stages.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Apparently they did not kpow Ontario Hydro.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: They never saw fit to go through with the deal that was proposed. It never reached the first stages of fruition. To compare it with the one that was finalized and from which the Indians now have $2.5 million I think is to talk in an absolutely irresponsible way about a deal that has now been in effect for some time.
I might draw to his attention the fact that whatever happens subsequently to lands that are disposed of, that is a matter that scarcely comes under the jurisdiction of this department. When we were advising the Indians with respect to this particular deal, we were not satisfied with one valuation. We had three valuations and none of them came anywhere near the valuation that my hon. friend now likes to propose as being a true valuation for the property.
There are a great many things to be considered about this particular piece of land and its potential. I should like to put on record now the fact that we do not consider that any subsequent deal made by the company and hydro was necessarily one for the consideration of this department. We had no offer from hydro. We had an offer from this company. The offer from the company was for a large parcel of land. Hydro was interested in a relatively small portion of the land. Even if hydro had paid directly to the Indians at the same rate the amount they are reputed to have paid now, the Indians still would not have as much money as they have at the present time from this property.
As I said last year, Mr. Chairman-and I have no hesitation in saying it again-I think we made an excellent deal for the Indians and I have no apology to make to anybody, including the hon. member, for that deal.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I have not any apology to make either for what I have said. I did not make any valuation of this land. The Ontario hydro made the valuation of the land. The hon- lady agreed to sell and sold land or allowed to be sold land that belonged to the Indians for $2,000 an acre for which hydro subsequently paid $7,000 an acre; or rather, it was not subsequently because the evidence seems to be that they paid it three days before.


An hon. Member:: Can you prove it?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Hence it was a willing purchaser, and perhaps a too willing purchaser, that paid $5,000 an acre more than the hon. lady sold for, three days after the first agreement was made, according to the evidence.

If the hon. lady thinks it is none of her business, when her department knew that hydro was interested in this land, to enquire in advance whether they could not make a better deal with them, I regard that as a dereliction of duty and I do not think it is "irresponsible" for any member of parliament to describe it in those terms.
Then the hon. lady says they would not have received so much for the piece of land that hydro took as they have already received for a great deal more land than hydro took. Of course, that is true; but they would have had the rest of the land, something which is a rather important consideration.
If this reserve were up near James bay somewhere, there might be a great deal to be said for the view that it was needed for some special purpose that would exist for only one purchaser, that existed at only one point in time and that would enable the trustees for the Indians to sell at that time and reinvest the money in some other way that would be proper for the Indians. But anybody who has the slightest knowledge of what has gone on in the environs of Sarnia in the last 25 years knows that it is not a matter of speculation-although it appears to have been a matter of speculation in another sense of the term-but rather a matter of absolute certainty that unless we are going to have a deep Tory recession for a long time to come, this land is going to accelerate in value every year. If the government had to pay taxes on the land, if they had a large number of fixed charges they had to meet or if the Indians had been in desperate need of this money-as they were not-there might have been a much different situation. But there was no reason whatsoever for this precipitate, urgent sale except, apparently, the fact this Dimensional company came along and made an offer and managed, without the knowledge of the department, to sell a part of it in order to give them in advance, enough money with which to make their down payment. I say that this transaction, even apart from the hydro aspect of it, was an improvident one. But when one thinks of this hydro aspect which has now, as I say, been whitewashed by a royal commission in Ontario, one gets a different picture. Since the royal commission said that this land was worth $7,000 an acre, the hon. lady either repudiates the royal commission or she makes mincemeat of her sale at $2,000 an acre; and that is exactly what I am complaining about and what I say there is a proper complaint about with regard to those who have a special responsibility and special trust with regard to

these Indian lands. It seems to me that there was just a shocking neglect of the proper discharge of that trust.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, I repudiate that statement entirely. The hon. member knows full well that the land which was subsequently sold to hydro was not by any manner of means sold for $2,000 an acre. The figure of $2,000 an acre was the average price for the whole area and certainly not the price for the particular section of land which was sold to hydro.
I might draw something further to his attention. Since he seems to be so familiar with the proceedings of this royal commission, he had better read the part where the judge said he felt that the interests of the Indians had been well protected by this department.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman-


The Chairman:: Order.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I think I might be allowed to reply to that direct suggestion.


Jacques Flynn: Order. I recognize the hon. member for York North who has been trying to get the floor for some time.


Cecil A. (Tiny) Cathers: Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate is being extremely unfair in his statement.


An hon. Member:: He always is unfair.


Cecil A. (Tiny) Cathers: He states that he has not read this royal commission report and yet he says it was a whitewash. I think he made the same charges here last year with regard to the minister gypping the Indians. I say this to the hon. member: He has done it again and he has not investigated the report of the royal commission. If he had done so, he would not have made these statements he has made today. Another thing the hon. member did was to criticize the price. A large block of land was sold for $2,000 an acre. A small block-an extremely narrow block and a desirable one-was bought by the hydro at a higher price. What is wrong with that procedure? It is just another example of the great foresight of this group across the way, and it is similar to the stand they took the other day with regard to bonds that were sold and which they said should not have been sold. After three years they can see the difference. Frankly, Mr. Chairman, I think the hon. member has been most unfair in his charges with regard to this matter.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I am glad I allowed the hon. member for York North to speak first because it is so much easier to reply. It
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration is none of our business what the royal commission says because the royal commission was investigating the conduct of a provincial body.


Cecil A. (Tiny) Cathers: Why were you referring to it?


John Whitney Pickersgill: I was referring to it because, as the hon. gentleman knows very well, the royal commission said that what the hydro did was justified.


Cecil A. (Tiny) Cathers: How do you know?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Because I read the newspapers, as the hon. member also does. I say, Mr. Chairman, it is reasonable to assume that when all three Toronto newspapers agree on a fact, it is likely to be a fact.
There does not seem to be much doubt that the royal commission did say this transaction was justified, that hydro was justified in paying $7,000 an acre. If that is so, that makes the case against the federal government that much worse. If the royal commission had said-as some people think it should have said-that this was a fixed deal and that hydro paid far too much, that would support the hon. lady. But if hydro paid a fair price at $7,000 an acre, then the hon. lady did not get a fair price at $2,000 an acre.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: That is nonsense.


John Whitney Pickersgill: That is not nonsense at all. The hon. lady makes a great deal of fuss about this being a small area and the most desirable part. As a matter of fact the only evidence given, which the hon. lady has never attempted to deal with, is that this is about the most undesirable part of this tract of land because it happens to have, not one but I believe two of these hydro lines going across it. It would therefore not be a Suitable area for building.
Far from being the most valuable piece of land it is probably, except for hydro purposes, an almost useless piece of land according to the information about this particular tract, that has never been contradicted. The information I have about it may be wrong. I confess I have not gone down there myself and walked over it. I am not speaking from direct personal knowledge. But evidence was put on Hansard last year about these hydro lines going across this particular piece of land, about the purpose for which hydro wanted it and about its unsuitability for building purposes.
I will be very surprised if other tracts of this land are not resold by the present purchaser at an even higher price than hydro paid.


J.-H.-Théogène Ricard: That is normal business.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Of course it is normal business; I am not criticizing the purchaser. But
2360	HOUSE OF
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration surely it is the duty of the government not to sell off Indian reserves, that are held in trust for the Indians, for less than their worth and for less than can be obtained for the benefit of the Indians, in order to enable a fly-bynight real estate operator to make a quick buck out of it.


An hon. Member:: We do not do that type of thing.


John Whitney Pickersgill: That is what you did.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, I do not know how many times I have to say this for it to sink in. Possibly it will never sink in.


An hon. Member:: He has a pretty tough hide.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: We had three separate and distinct valuations of this property, taking into consideration not only present values but potential values in the area. The price received by the Indians for their land was a fair price. I cannot go any further than that. Every safeguard that could be taken was taken.
I am sure my hon. friend does not doubt my intentions in regard to the Indians. I have a very grave responsibility toward them. This deal was explained to them in detail; it was a deal they themselves wanted and accepted. I am sure that if my hon. friend, who talks about the fuss I made-and I might say this, he is the worst fussbudget in the house- would think back to his own experience in the department he would know that had this deal not gone through he would have reason to make an even bigger fuss.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I certainly would not. I accept the hon. lady's word about her intention; I have never at any time cast any reflection on her intentions. But I am dealing with facts, only with facts, and I intend to deal with facts.
I tell the committee this, and I hope no one doubts my word. I did agree to negotiate with a company in 1957. That company considered, until it found it impossible to finance the transaction, that this land-not quite as much, but nearly as much; nearly the same property [DOT]-was worth $8 million. The hon. lady sold it for $6-J million. If I had been minister, that fact alone would have given me plenty of reason for pausing, if between 1957 and 1960 the price offered for land-maybe they offered too much-


Ellen Louks Fairclough: That is why they withdrew. They found they had offered too much.


John Whitney Pickersgill: The hon. lady is misrepresenting the facts. The hon. lady knows perfectly well that the arrangement for financing fell through-


Ellen Louks Fairclough: That is a very nice excuse.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Whether it is an excuse or not, I am saying that if I had been in office and had been considering a transaction to sell Indian lands for $8 million, I would have looked long and hard before selling it for $6J million.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: That is precisely what we did.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I would not have been satisfied with three valuations, knowing there was another potential purchaser for a part of that land and when, as it turned out, that potential purchaser was already in negotiation with the person to whom the hon. lady was making the sale to pay a price three and a half times as much as the hon. lady sold it for.
In the face of the facts it really does seem to be a transaction impossible to defend in any way.


Mr. Macdonnell:: Mr. Chairman, I should like to make a comment on this although I have come in late and I do not think I know all the facts. However, two or three things seem to me to be clear.
It seems to me this is a classic case that so often arises, of wisdom after the event. Anyone who has anything to do with business knows that real estate values often do strange things. I had a little experience myself. I sold a house for a figure which makes me blush now when I think of it. Why? Not because it was not a reasonable thing to do at the time, because I had the best opinions and it looked perfectly all right; but that house has since changed hands at figures I do not like to think of.
I do not blame anyone for that. Perhaps I blame myself a little, but I do not blame myself very much. Therefore when the minister tells us-and apparently this is not contradicted in any way-that there was not one valuation, not two valuations but three valuations, and presumably from reputable people, how it is possible to come along and say the matter was gone into hastily and in an ill-considered fashion passes my understanding.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I am sure that when the hon. member for Greenwood sold the house to which he referred he did not watch it change hands to another purchaser the next day, or even the day before, at a price three and a half times higher than he sold it for. That is what happened in this particular case.
The deal between hydro and Dimensional had, according to uncontradicted evidence that was put on Hansard last year-no one has yet attempted to contradict it-already

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration
been made before the deal was made between Dimensional and the federal government.
It seems to me that is the most serious aspect of this matter. The department knew hydro wanted this land. The hon. lady admitted that before the hon. member for Greenwood came into the committee. They knew this land was wanted by hydro. Hydro is not like red China; surely it is recognized by the federal government as an entity to which they can speak. It surely should not have been very difficult for the hon. lady herself to pick up the telephone and ask Mr. McCauley or Mr. Duncan if they really wanted this property.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Will the hon. member permit a question?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Certainly.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Is he saying that, against the wishes of the Indians who expressed themselves as not wishing to deal with hydro, I should have forced them to deal with hydro?


John Whitney Pickersgill: No, I am not saying any such thing. I am saying that the minister should not have agreed without exploring what hydro would pay and telling the Indians what hydro would pay. I am not saying the minister should have forced them to sell to hydro. I know she could not, according to law.
There is another aspect of this matter which I have not yet mentioned but which I will mention now. There was a meeting of the band council-the hon. lady knows about this because I asked questions about it earlier in the session-and just before the vote was taken the representative of the purchaser, a lawyer, went around and offered each of the Indians another $100. That was immediately before the vote was taken. This to me-


An hon. Member:: When was that?
was through and the vote had been taken this was a perfectly reasonable thing to do.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I think we ought to understand how these things happen. The band council has to vote the surrender of the land before it can be sold. Before the vote was taken, an offer had been made by this company-an offer to pay so much, and so much down-and there seemed to be some doubt whether it would be accepted or not. According to the information given to me, a legal representative of the company, when he saw the way the vote was going, said there would be another hundred dollars paid right away if the vote was favourable. If that had been a vote in a federal election, that vote would have been invalidated, as the hon. lady knows. It seems to me that this is just another of those things which would have made the minister doubly suspicious. That happened before Christmas, if my memory serves me right_______


James Stanley Speakman: On a point of order, the hon. member has just made an allegation. I think he should be called upon to prove that allegation.


John Whitney Pickersgill: As a matter of fact, the allegation is not contradictory of what the hon. lady herself said.


Some hon. Members:: Oh.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: The hon. member is saying that this proposition was made by the company to the Indians before the vote was taken. I say the proposition was made by the Indians to the company after the vote had been taken, and that is a different thing.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Does the hon. lady say the vote was taken before they were told that as soon as the vote had been taken they would get this hundred dollars?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: That is the information I have. I was not at the meeting, and neither was the hon. member.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: That is not true. That is a misrepresentation.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Then will the hon. lady tell us what happened at that meeting.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Yes, I will tell you. This deal was going through, and since Christmas was at hand the Indians asked whether they could expect to have an advance. They did not get anything extra. The locatees got an advance on the sale price. There is no secret about it. The amount of money was paid by cheque to these locatees whose land was being taken over, and it was an advance on the sale. I suggest to the hon. member that having regard to the fact that the deal


John Whitney Pickersgill: No, I was not at the meeting, either and I have no documents. But, of course, there was a record made of that meeting and the hon. lady could inquire of the superintendent what the facts are. It seems to me it is very important that these facts should be established, because the information given to me-


James Stanley Speakman: What information and from where?


John Whitney Pickersgill: I have been given information by someone who was there-someone who was interested in the matter-and the information I have been given is that they were told before the vote was taken. It is true no money was paid before the
2362	HOUSE OF
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration vote was taken, but they were told before the vote was taken that if the surrender was approved they would get another hundred in cash right away.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Not another hundred,
an advance.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Another hundred in cash right away-not an increase in the price, of course.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: What does the hon. member mean by "another hundred dollars" if he does not mean an increase in the price?


John Whitney Pickersgill: I mean a hundred dollars in cash that they would not have got.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: The hon. member still insists that this deal was made before the vote was taken. Does he insist that the company offered this advance to the Indians or is his informant telling him that the Indians asked for it, which is the information I have.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I do not know who brought the subject up, but I do not think it matters.


Some hon. Members:: Oh.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I do not think it matters for this reason: When a vote is being taken on a matter of this kind at a band meeting, all the Indians who are interested not necessarily being present, it is my belief that a financial consideration of that character, no matter who initiated it, is improper. Again, to use the analogy of a federal election, it does not really matter whether you go and 'ask a fellow whether he. will offer you $10 for your vote or whether he comes to offer it to you. Whatever way that happens it is wrong, and I say there seems to have been-


James Stanley Speakman: More of these allegations.


John Whitney Pickersgill: The hon. member can reply in his own time. I am surprised, if the supporters of the government think this is such a good transaction, that they are so worried about any criticism of it.


Mr. Charlton:: It is the insults.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Well, the only person who is being insulted during this discussion, if one can call it insult, is myself. Imputations have been made concerning my motives. The hon. lady has described me in rather unparliamentary terms-I do not take exception to that, because I know the hon. lady. I have dealt with such facts as I know. I have let the hon. lady interrupt me every time she wanted to interrupt, because I did not want to represent anything which was not a fact. I want to be very clear as to what the facts are. It seems to me that when this company showed this tremendous eagerness


to get this land, and when they had their lawyer lobbying at the meeting, suspicions should have been aroused. Why were they so desperately anxious to get this land, and so concerned about giving the Indians a little money before Christmas? It seems to me there was tremendous eagerness to get this transaction through. Another thing which is hard to explain is this: why, when the surrender was made before Christmas, did it take the hon. lady until March 14 to conclude the transaction? Did she have to wait until the other people were sure they had got hydro on the hook before she would conclude it? Does the hon. lady know whether there was any agreement between the company and the hydro before she signed the agreement herself?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: The answer to the last question is, no. As far as the length of time is concerned, I have already explained that we had not one but three valuations to make. The intervening time was taken up in making a thorough investigation of the situation.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Were the valuations made after the surrender?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: One was made before, and the last two were made after the surrender.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I am not going to traverse this subject further but there is one other thing I intend to suggest to the hon. lady. This transaction is not completely concluded yet. I am going to propose that the minister talk to her colleagues and suggest to them that an inquiry be made to find out whether or not any understanding or agreement had been reached between the company and the hydro before this sale was completed and, if it was, I suggest that the whole matter be looked into again to make absolutely certain that there is not some redress we can still give the Indians whose trustees we are.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Welfare of Indians-
59.	Operation and maintenance, including a grant to the province of Manitoba of one half of the cost of a program of community development not exceeding, $50,000, $9,176,563.
John Whitney Pickersgill: On this item can the hon. lady tell us how many Indians are receiving welfare at the latest available date compared with the same date last year?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I am sorry, Mr. Chairman, but we do not have those figures immediately available. I shall be glad to procure them for the hon. member.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I believe it would be interesting to have the comparison on the record.

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration


Ellen Louks Fairclough: If the hon. member agrees we will procure this information and I will make a statement tomorrow so that it will go into the record.


John Whitney Pickersgill: That would be satisfactory.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I am afraid I will have to withdraw that last statement. My officials tell me that they do not think it could be procured by tomorrow. I will, however, make it available to the hon. member at the earliest opportunity.


John Whitney Pickersgill: That would be very desirable. It would be good to have the most up-to-date information.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
60.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $2,010,000.
John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, I believe there is a decrease in this vote. Could the hon. lady say what is involved in this particular kind of construction? Is it housing?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Yes, Mr. Chairman. This vote provides for assistance in the provision of adequate housing with minimum standards for needy Indians and also for the purchase of equipment. The details are for financing, in whole or in part, the construction of 817 housing units including minimum services if required. In addition it relates to the purchase of three new automobiles and equipment such as carpenter's tools, cement mixers for use in house construction, sewing machines for homemakers' courses and similar equipment.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Are fewer houses being built this year than last?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: The winter works program accounts for a part of the reduction. An additional vote was added on to last year's estimates. That accounts for the difference.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I am afraid I do not understand that at all.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: We put through a supplementary estimate in the autumn after the house met in order to do some of the work ahead of time which removed the necessity for putting that amount into this year's estimates.


John Whitney Pickersgill: That still does not answer my question. Are more houses going to be built in 1961-62?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I am told that our housing program will be maintained at approximately the same level this year as last. Present plans call for the construction of 817 housing units, as I mentioned, in 87 agencies. During the fiscal year 1961-62, work was
started on these from funds provided in the supplementary estimates that were put through in November or December last.


John Whitney Pickersgill: How many houses are under construction or have been completed in this fiscal year?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: The estimated number for last year was 907 units. I might add that the 907 included 80 houses to be built from funds provided by the supplementary estimates. There are 817 to be built this year.


John Whitney Pickersgill: So that there is a decline in the housing program?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: No, the hon. member is confused by the construction that was started in the interval between the two years. The 907 included 80 houses for which provision was made in the estimates that went through in November or December. If we were to deduct 80 from the 907 there would have been 827 built last year, but if you were to add 80 to the 817 there would be 897 this year.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
61.	Economic development-operation and maintenance, including an amount of $6,500 for grants to promote Indian agriculture, handicrafts and economic enterprises generally, $1,113,148.
John Whitney Pickersgill: As the hon. lady knows, the subject of this vote is, next to education, my favourite. Could the hon. lady produce any figures showing how many Indians are employed? I do not refer to those who have independently secured employment but to those who have gained employment as a result of the various activities of the department under the economic development program?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I believe I gave that information in my opening statement, but I will see if we have a recapitulation available. The hon. member is inquiring about figures from the commencement of the program, is he?


John Whitney Pickersgill: No, Mr. Chairman. Perhaps I had better explain what I am really trying to get at as it may save time. I want to know how many Indians are actually employed as the result of this kind of placement activity, and so on, as compared with a year ago.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: We have the figures divided into two lots, urban placements and rural and seasonal placements. In 1960 there were 3,773 in rural and seasonal placements as against 2,827 in 1959. With respect to the urban placement program, 344 were permanently employed as of November 30, 1960, which is the last date we have. I have to subtract the figure from the total to get a comparison with the year before. On the basis
2364	HOUSE OF
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration of my rapid calculation, it appears that there were about 150 in this category the year before. It has just about doubled.


John Whitney Pickersgill: In a general way does the hon. lady think, notwithstanding the greater difficulty the rest of the population has in finding employment, that as a result of the activities of the placement service and the economic development program she is doing better at the present time than she did a year ago?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I think so, Mr. Chairman. As a matter of fact this is a progressive thing. Every Indian who takes a job and makes good at it paves the way for two or three more. It is a snowballing thing. As the people who make a success set an example, it is followed by others. The effects are seen not only among their fellow Indians but their success also makes the respective employers a little more amenable to the suggestion of hiring Indians.


John Whitney Pickersgill: The hon. member for Selkirk asked earlier about Grand Rapids and developments in that part of Manitoba which appear to be extremely gratifying. I should like to know about developments at the International Nickel Company at Thompson in northern Manitoba. Has the department been successful in persuading that company to employ Indians?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: We have been trying, Mr. Chairman. I do not think we have been quite as successful there as we have at Grand Rapids. We are still working on it. There have been some difficulties in the way. We hope we can persuade these people to hire more and more Indians as time goes on. I can assure the hon. member that we are not falling down on the job but are keeping right after them.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
62.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $511,407.
John Whitney Pickersgill: What is the nature of the construction under this vote?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: This provides for capital expenditures in connection with expanded and accelerated development of commercial enterprises which tend to permit the attainment by Indians of higher standards of living. For instance, it provides for the construction of freezers for storage of food products, including wild game and commercial fish; for the breaking, fencing, ditching and drainage of land; for dams and dikes; for the rehabilitating of waterfowl, and muskrats; ice houses for commercial fishing projects; vehicles used by placement officers; saw mills for cutting lumber for houses or for sale; farm machinery, tractors and conveying equipment; bulls to improve breeds of livestock; garden


tools; breeding cattle. These are all included in this item.
There is an item of $266,004. This is mainly in an expanded agricultural and commercial fisheries program, necessitating increases in the amounts provided for breaking and fencing, ice houses, livestock, which includes cattle formerly provided for under operation and maintenance of farm machinery, flooding equipment; outboard motors for commercial fisheries. They are offset by a decrease in the amount for freezers, saw mills and conveying equipment.


John Whitney Pickersgill: It is more than doubled, in fact.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
64. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment including payments under agreements to provide joint educational facilities to Indian pupils, $7,705,000.
John Whitney Pickersgill: I notice there was a small increase. Does the hon. lady think she is getting anywhere near catching up on the need for schools?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: There is a small decrease.


John Whitney Pickersgill: That is really what I meant to say. The fact that there was a decrease made me wonder whether the need for schools was somewhat less than it had been?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Well, that is a pretty broad question, Mr. Chairman. We are not replacing residential schools unless it is absolutely necessary. Some of the schools which are in use are pretty ancient. There is one place I can think of where the schools were condemned and we will have to dispose of them, and other arrangements are being made. In some instances it is possible to make arrangements with nearby non-Indian schools to absorb the pupils from day schools. This we will do wherever necessary.
I should like to see us reach the stage where all Indian children were in integrated schools but, of course, for a long time there will be areas where children will require residential schools and there will be families who, because of their living habits, will be unable to look after their own children's education unless they do go into residential schools.


John Whitney Pickersgill: For the last 10 years we have been spending a great deal of money on schools.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Yes.


John Whitney Pickersgill: One assumes that for most of that period we have been trying to catch up with the backlog?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Yes.


John Whitney Pickersgill: One assumes that, since the life of these schools is more than 10 years, certainly we ought to be reaching a point when there would be a deceleration in the rate of need for schools. That is the point.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: It is true that we are catching up to some extent, but there is the other side of the question and that is the tremendous population increase. As I have said on more than one occasion, and as I think I said the other day in the house, about 50 per cent of all Indians are under 16 years of age. This raises a continuing and increasing problem with regard to their education. The offsetting factor, as I have said, is the fact that more and more of them are going into integrated schools.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
480. To authorize loans, in accordance with terms and conditions prescribed by the governor in council, to Indians in the current and subsequent fiscal years to assist them in acquiring housing, $100,000.
John Whitney Pickersgill: Is the hon. lady going to say a word on this?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I explained that the other day, but I shall be glad to say something on it. I gave an explanation on the first item of my estimates.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I do not want to ask for any repetition.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Jacques Flynn: That completes the estimates of the Indian affairs branch, the next branch is the national gallery.



NATIONAL GALLERY OF CANADA

[Stage Direction]
253. Administration, operation and maintenance including grants as detailed in the estimates, $975,116.
Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, the national gallery of Canada is, at this time, completing its first year of operation in its new location in the Lome building in central Ottawa.
I have been most encouraged by the extraordinary demonstration of public support for the gallery and its activities, which is evidenced by the checked attendance since the inaugural opening of the new premises on February 17, 1960. As of the closing hour last evening, February 22, the attendance was 585,188; in other words, 585,188 visitors have entered the building in that year and five days to enjoy the collections, the circulating exhibitions, the library, lectures and study seminars, which constitute the program of this living museum of art in our national capital.
I should like to point out that in addition to the attractive program of activities talcing place in Ottawa, the national gallery of
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration Canada, through its division of exhibition extension services has, since I last reported, circulated 46 travelling exhibitions throughout the length and breadth of this vast country. It has also sponsored a series of lectures on art topics in many centres, from the Atlantic provinces to the west coast. I am informed that a conservative estimate of attendance at these travelling exhibition and lecture services outside of Ottawa is approximately 244,000 persons. These, together with publications, reproductions, technical and curatorial advice, are the services the national gallery provides to the Canadian public at home.
The gallery's services abroad are also activities of considerable significance and value. We have participated successfully in the thirtieth biennale of international art in Venice, Italy, and at present the national gallery, in collaboration with the national museum, is presenting a comprehensive exhibition of Canadian art in Mexico city. The combined attendance at these two events is as yet not fully reported, but it may reach a further 100,000. It will thus be seen that the public attendance at events sponsored by the national gallery, at home and abroad, may be somewhat in excess of 900,000 persons.
In its program outlined for the coming year, the gallery proposes to extend the space devoted to Canadian works in the Lome building, it having been felt during the past year that not enough space has been available adequately to display Canadiana, particularly that of the French tradition. The north gallery, facing Albert street, formerly employed for the exposition of design centre projects, is to provide additional space for this purpose.
Among the exhibition features of the coming year will be the fourth biennale of Canadian art which will open in Ottawa on May 16, 1961. Following its exhibition in Ottawa, it will be circulated across Canada. For the first time, the trustees have declared a policy of making the biennale an open exhibition. This means that any Canadian who desires to submit work to the jury of selection may do so.
Another important exhibition will be the "Heritage de France", opening in Canada in the autumn of this year. This exhibition will bring to this country masterpieces of French painting of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. The national gallery will be one of the participating institutions in this great international project.
The curatorial division is continuing various projects on basic research; a definitive history of Canadian art, and a dictionary of national biography, dealing with Canadian artists and sculptors born before 1867, are in preparation

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration at the present time. These and many other worthy undertakings are being planned and encouraged by the board of trustees.
In my opinion, Mr. Chairman, the board of trustees of the national gallery of Canada have, through their careful and imaginative planning of the program of this important agency, justified the confidence and support of this committee.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, I do not intend to detain the committee more than about a minute, but I cannot refrain from expressing a little pardonable pride at the success that has attended the national gallery in the new building, a building which I recall seeing with my mind's eye as I looked out of my office as minister of citizenship and immigration with the architect when we discussed the site, which was visible from that office, and the planning of the building. I just wanted to recall the fact that this was one Liberal vision that became a reality. I confess that even in my wildest dreams I never thought the number of visitors to the building would be as great as in fact it has turned out to be, which would seem to suggest that there are many Canadians who genuinely believe that man does not live by bread alone. Before the estimates carry I wish to ask one or two questions, but that is all I have to say of a general nature.


Mr. Herridge:: Mr. Chairman, I listened with interest to the rather rapidly read statement of the minister on the national gallery. I hope the tempo of the reading does not indicate the minister's appreciation of the value of the gallery to Canada. I can well understand the hon. member for Bona-vista-Twillingate's pride in the building because I think it is quite correct to say that the conception was during the previous government's tenure, and the excellence of the building and the arrangements are indicated by the very greatly increased attendance.
I have visited the gallery on a good number of occasions and, even though it is still spoken of as a temporary building, I think Canadians can view the building and its contents with pride. I have noticed Canadians and tourists from other countries going through the building who have shown a similar interest, and this is indicated by the attendance of people in the last year.
I want to pay a tribute to the director and his staff. The director is without doubt a man with ideas. He is not only a painter of distinction and a gentleman who has occupied a position with the University of Toronto but, as I was informed only recently, he has also been a military adviser to NATO. I did not know that his activities had covered such

a wide field. I was thinking about the national gallery the other day and I remembered reading the submission of the director to the royal commission on arts, letters and sciences. I may say that the present director of the gallery, Dr. Charles F. Comfort, is not only a painter but also composes with considerable cognition because I read his submission with great interest. It is very well written indeed and it is well worth anyone taking the time to read it. It has to do with painting and, as I said before, was a submission to the royal commission on arts, letters and sciences by the present director. I might say that after reading the submission I almost wished the director had taken to literature as well because we lack style in our literature and in my opinion this is a very well written article. The director has this to say:
In conclusion it may well be asked, under which system is art likely to prosper, where the state plays a part as patron, or where that function relies upon the voluntary interest and support of private institutions and individuals?
He goes on to deal with this question of magnitude and then says:
It would seem that the only valid reason for a state concern with the arts arises when it is shown that the character of local conditions endangers the preservation and development of the cultural heritage. In a small industrialized modern state, the task of supporting adequate cultural activities has far outstripped the capacity of private and voluntary means, a circumstance which must be well documented in the briefs submitted to the royal commission on cultural affairs. In expressing a hope that some instrument for the assistance and development of the arts may be set up in Canada, I am confident that it would play a most useful and vital part in our spiritual regeneration. But its constitution and the fruitful fulfilment Of its function depend upon a careful consideration of the dangers as Well as the advantages of such a procedure. The value of democracy rests in a respect for individual rights and individual differences which should be preserved rather than restricted or inhibited.
I think that paragraph puts very well indeed the necessity for assistance by the state in such matters as art galleries, museums and things of that nature if we are going to preserve our cultural heritage. Having made these few remarks I do want to say that certain matters have been brought to my attention and I have two bones, shall I say, to pick on behalf of a number of citizens of Ottawa, some of them of Scots ancestry, who have telephoned me. In fact, a gentleman telephoned me the other day and said he was not in the habit of calling socialists because he was a member of the Progressive Conservative party, but he wanted to bring to my attention certain things that he thought should be corrected so far as the national gallery is concerned.
First of all, I am informed, and I have to depend so far as these matters are concerned on my informants who are quite well

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known and responsible people, that paintings and statuary worth millions of dollars are in storage in a building on Echo drive. I am told that the building is about 45 by 40 with a ceiling 20 to 25 feet high. I am told that there is also a collection of war paintings there which I am informed is valued at about $2 million.
I understand there are enough paintings in storage in this building on Echo drive to stock a good-sized art gallery and that in fact there are some paintings in storage which have been purchased in more recent years as the result of estimates passed by the house. When the minister replies I trust she will inform the house as to the value of the paintings in storage on Echo drive and possibly give us some idea of the number of paintings and pieces of statuary in storage because I promised these people I would raise this question.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The committee resumed at 8 p.m.
Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Chairman, when we rose at six o'clock in order to refill our personal art galleries, I had paid a tribute to the director and his staff and had dealt briefly with the paintings in storage and with a valuable collection of war paintings that are also in storage.
Before proceeding with the remainder of my brief remarks I wish to say this. It has been a joy to go through the gallery this year not only because of the excellence of the building and of the arrangements, with the exception of one or two things which I shall mention later, but because of the interest I have noticed on the part of young people going through the building. It was not just a casual interest. I have stood there for some time on occasions and have noticed the genuine interest they were taking in the various types of pictures, a fact which indicated to me, particularly in view of the large number who have gone through the gallery- I think the minister mentioned a figure of something over half a million-the great value of the national gallery to us as a nation and the much greater value it can be with proper support, good public relations, a further increase in the number of paintings and so on, particularly in certain schools.
In the estimates this year I notice quite a modest amount for the purchase of new pictures. We support that item wholeheartedly. These are not times when we can be lavish in this respect but I think it is a good thing,
even under somewhat difficult circumstances, to indicate our interest by at least the estimate we have at the present time in purchasing pictures this year. I think I heard some reference in some place to the saying that money is required and we cannot afford, as a nation, to let the national gallery stagnate.
Before proceeding further, I want to suggest that if the pictures at present in storage cannot be hung in the national gallery they should be lent to other institutions. I presume some of them will be hung. I know the difficulties under which the director and his staff have worked this year. We cannot expect everything to be done in one year. However,
I suggest that as many as possible of these pictures be hung for people to see. As to those which cannot be hung or which possibly are not suitable to be hung in the circumstances under which they would be hung, I suggest that they be lent to other institutions because I believe these things should be seen, particularly by the young people of the country.
As to the war paintings, I know they are in a rather different class. I saw some of them years ago. They are quite large canvasses, I understand. Possibly it would be a good idea if these paintings could be taken over by the national archives and, in any event, hung so that the present and coming generations will have an opportunity to see in graphic form recorded on these canvasses what was done in the years of war.
I now come to another matter that I have been asked to mention by some of my Conservative friends. Last Wednesday I asked the minister why the picture of the Marquis of Lome was not hung in the national gallery. The minister replied that a picture by the distinguished pre-Raphaelite painter, Sir John Everett Millais, was at present hanging in the national gallery. The people who communicated with me on the telephone and otherwise have been frequent visitors to the gallery-they are Ottawa people-and have failed to see it. Some of them were in the gallery at the time of the minister's reply and they tramped off, hot foot, to see where this picture was. I might say that we found that it is technically correct to say that there is a picture of the Marquis of Lome in the national gallery, but under the circumstances, hardly one in substance. This fact is felt keenly by some of the Scotsmen in Ottawa.
In order to verify the telephone conversations I have held, I went to the gallery on Sunday. I am told in the first instance that the picture in storage is a magnificent picture about eight feet by six feet, of the marquis in highland costume, in full dress.
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Supply-Citizenship and Immigration At the present time I understand it is resting on its side, with dust on the frame, in this building I previously mentioned. I am also informed on making further inquiries that this extremely striking picture-according to my informant it is striking; I have not seen this picture-is actually owned by the Department of Public Works. I wish the minister would explain that matter. If so, it is a rather unusual set of circumstances.
We all know that the present national gallery building, namely, the Lome building, is a great improvement over our previous accommodation for the national art gallery. I think it is now quite true to say that we might even have the motto "Enjoy yourself in comfort with Comfort". I raise this point particularly because the Marquis of Lome was the founder of the national art gallery in 1880. When these people called me and talked to me about this matter I had a sketchy knowledge of the period of Canadian history during which the Marquis of Lome was governor general of this country, but I made it my business to get a few books from the library and I have been astounded at what I have discovered.
The Marquis of Lome was a man of vision, culture and great generosity. The Marquis of Lome was governor general of this country from 1878 to 1883. He was a viceroy. He was an ambassador. He was a unionist member of parliament for a Lancashire constituency. I might explain that a unionist is a Tory who recognizes the impact of industrial civilization and faces life in a more pragmatic way than did his predecessors. The Marquis of Lome was an economist. He wrote books. I found one in which he carried on a considerable correspondence with Henry George, the person who wrote on the single tax question. He was an artist. I found another book-and I draw it to the attention of the minister and the director-in which are included dozens and dozens of his sketches and drawings. They are delightful sketches and drawings. He was an author; he wrote books. Anyone who reads the two books he has written, entitled "Passages from the Past", which are more or less extensions of his diary, will be informed of the great part he played in Canadian history. He was a composer and playwright. He wrote his own plays and had them performed before audiences composed of guests numbering as many as 500. He was a diarist and he was the first governor general of Canada to, as it were, rap the knuckles of the colonial office in Great Britain with respect to its lack of understanding that Canada was a growing nation and should have her independence in certain matters.
He played a considerable part in creating understanding between the French and
[Mr. Herridge.l

British populations in Canada and defending the rights of the French-Canadian minority. He founded the royal society of literature in Canada and in 1880, as I have mentioned before, he founded the national gallery. In his diary there are two or three delightful passages which deal with the first three annual exhibitions or events that took place after the opening of the national gallery.
Therefore, Mr. Chairman, I go to some length to mention his qualities and great achievements. Anyone reading his books will see that he was a man of great wisdom, of powers of observation and of balance, a student of human nature and of nature.


Mr. Brunsden:: Mr. Chairman, would the hon. member permit a question? Is the hon. member for Kootenay West a contemporary of the gentleman in question?


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: That was a sharp question.


Mr. Drysdale:: Let's hope we get a sharp
answer.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I cannot claim to be a contemporary in time; I can, in spirit and purpose.


Mr. Graffiey:: Wisdom is timeless, is it not?


An hon. Member:: That is more than the present Tories can say.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Naturally the building was named the Lome building after the Marquis of Lome, but "Lome building" does not mean much to many people coming to the national gallery, or to visitors and tourists. My point is this. Pictures are required when we come to glamourize history, to dramatize history and inform people of our history, of which we should be proud.
There is a painting in the gallery of the Marquis of Lome. It is about 29 inches by 40 inches and it was painted by Millais. It is a rather drab painting, showing the Marquis with a very pallid countenance. It is on display on a side wall in a side room on the second floor. As a matter of fact, you actually have to kneel to read the small inscription, which is a few inches long and very dark, which says this is a picture of the Marquis of Lome who was the founder of the national gallery. Because it is in an out of the way place and is so small, many people apparently visit the gallery and have no idea it is there.
My point is this. Just two pictures over and in close proximity to this picture of the Marquis of Lome is quite a large and posterior view of an attractive nude. I cannot say; I am not a judge, but I am told it is. It almost appears that the picture has been put there to distract attention from the painting of the Marquis of Lome. I can tell

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the committee that I stood there for an hour on Sunday and watched people come along-


J.-H.-Théogène Ricard: How did you make out with it?


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: -and not a single visitor noticed the painting of the Marquis of Lome: they all headed straight for this other picture.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: You were standing in front of him.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: No, I was standing to one side. On reading the books written by the Marquis, reading his history and some comments in his diaries, I do not think he would be at all flattered or complimented by being in such close proximity to a nude. In fact, I think that out of respect to his memory you ought to put kilts on her. I am speaking on behalf of people who have a sense of Canadian history and who appreciate these facts. I am speaking for many people of Scots descent, and I am sure for all Canadians who value our traditions, history and so on.
Therefore I do urge that the painting of the Marquis of Lome which is now in storage, the painting in which I am told he is shown in his full highland costume, a painting about six feet by eight feet, be placed facing the front doors on the ground floor as you enter the gallery, and that underneath there be an appropriate plaque which not only mentions that he was the founder of the national gallery but deals to some extent with the great contribution he made to Canadian development and Canadian nationhood.
I think this would be a fitting tribute to the Marquis of Lome and to his achievements. It would direct the attention of Canadians, visitors and tourists to the fact that this man, the Marquis of Lome, pictured in front of them was the person who founded the gallery. I am sure that as a result of this they would go away with a much clearer understanding of who he was, what he did and what his founding of the gallery has meant in the years since, and particularly at this time.
I think it would be most suitable to do that. In conclusion I do urge that consideration be given to using the paintings we have in storage and finding some place, possibly the archives for the war paintings. Then, a fitting tribute, such as I have described, should be paid to the Marquis of Lome and this painting hung in the appropriate place, namely facing the front entrance so that all will know who founded the national gallery of Canada.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, perhaps I could answer the hon. member for Kootenay West. After his very eloquent plea on behalf
of the Marquis of Lome I am sure the director and the trustees will take the whole matter of the proper display of his portrait and such additional information as may be deemed appropriate in the circumstances into earnest consideration.
I may say, though, that it is true the national gallery does not own the portrait which is in storage, and consequently I do not believe it is available for display. An arrangement was made some years ago to store it for the Department of Public Works, and there it rests.
I am not qualified to judge the merits of the two paintings, but I am told that the one hanging in the gallery is much superior to the other. I may say in this regard that the other day the hon. member made the statement that having this one portrait on hand the gallery had gone to the expense of having the other one painted. Possibly he has found out in the meantime that this is incorrect. That painting was presented to the gallery by the artist himself in 1884.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: The portrait by Millais?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Yes. With reference to paintings which are in storage, it is true that there are quite a few paintings in storage but the majority of them have now been moved to the Lome building where they have better facilities for them. They will, in time, be displayed on the rotation system which is in practice in the gallery.
The rest of the paintings will be removed just as quickly as possible, but I can assure the hon. member that this storage is a temporary arrangement and as soon as possible all these paintings will be in the gallery. It is not possible to show them all at one time. As I mentioned in my preliminary remarks, quite a few paintings are being moved around the country all the time on exhibition. Some of them are removed from the walls of the gallery, sent out on exhibition, others take their place and in that way the pictures are rotated at frequent intervals. In time, all of them will be on view. I am sure the hon. member would agree with this policy, because it adds interest for the viewer to find different paintings on view on different occasions when he visits the gallery.


Hubert Badanai: I should like to make a suggestion with regard to the national gallery. We have a magnificent building of which we are all very proud and it has been named after the Marquis of Lome whose history we have heard so characteristically described by the hon. member for Kootenay West. However, Lome building does not mean a great deal to the average visitor to Ottawa and it seems to me that the building needs a sign on the
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Supply-Citizenship and Immigration face of it inscribed with the words "national gallery". This would in no way detract from the great fame of the former governor general of Canada and all the attributes which have been ascribed to him, for he was a genius in practically everything he undertook.
As I say, I think the average visitor passes the building without even knowing what is inside. I have met visitors to the city who have wished to visit the national gallery. I have directed them to it and told them what kind of building it was. It is easy to identify, but the difficulty is that no one knows what the Lome building stands for. I have in mind visitors from south of the border and from coast to coast of Canada. I think we should have one large sign on Elgin street with the words "national gallery" upon it. As hon. members may be aware, the national gallery in London, England, in Trafalgar Square has written on the face of it the words "national gallery". I think we should have that name on the Lome building-possibly two signs, one facing north and another facing east. Sufficient room is available, and my proposal could be carried out at little cost. I am sure Dr. Comfort would agree with me that the appearance of the name "national gallery" in large letters would add to the individuality of the building and to the stature of the institution. The national gallery is a shrine to which people from all over -the country should come in order to see the things we have stored there. I have no objection to the painting which is relegated to some old building and which, as was pointed out by the hon. member for Kootenay West, should be carried on into the new building.
I have no objection to that at all, but I think we should have a name outside the gallery, and I would like the minister to give consideration to that suggestion.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: This matter is under active consideration at the present time. I agree with the hon. member, and I know the director does, too, that there should be some lettering capable of being easily distinguished, to designate the national gallery as such.
(Translation) :


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Chairman, I wish to congratulate the minister for the example her department has given by putting bilingual signs on the national gallery building.
However, if my information is correct, invitations and advertising booklets, which are quite often addressed throughout the country to some personalities and educational institutions are unilingual.
I would highly appreciate it if the director of the national gallery would consider the possibility of addressing those invitations and
[Mr. Badanai.)

that literature in both languages in the future.
(Text):


Ellen Louks Fairclough: As far as I know, the invitations are issued in both languages. The cards have English on one side and French on the other. To my knowledge, that has always been the practice.


William Heward Grafftey: After listening to the opening remarks of the hon. lady, all of us here this evening realize we have much to be proud of in the director of our national gallery and his staff and in the national gallery itself. We also have much to be proud of in this great new building which has been discussed this afternoon. One of the things which was mentioned by the hon. lady-and. it has been mentioned before in this house-was the fact that not only do we have this wonderful gallery in Ottawa, visited by so many people, but we also have travelling exhibitions in every corner of this land whose displays have been receiving great attention.
(Translation):
Mr. Chairman, I am pleased to learn that the national gallery plans to open an enlarged French section to works of art from the province of Quebec.
I am well aware that the art school in our province has acquired a substantial reputation. I am therefore very proud to notice now that the director of our national gallery intends to open to this art a larger section. (Text):
As was mentioned by the previous speaker, this building bears the name of a distinguished Canadian governor general. As far back as 1880 the national gallery was brought into being. Sir, I remember when I was in high school-


John Whitney Pickersgill: In 1880?


William Heward Grafftey: Not quite, but almost. I remember when I was in high school visiting the home of my late aunt, Prudence Heward, of whom I think I have great reason to be proud, where the Canadian group of painters often met. I remember speaking to someone at one of those group meetings who told me that back at the time of confederation, at the corner of Wellington and Bank streets, strangers might have thought they were gazing on a stable, yet appearance belied the fact that this structure really housed the supreme court. It was topped by a skylight, and through that skylight the rays of heaven were first shed on the national gallery which consisted of one small room less than. 30 feet square. What a change we see today-a change which is incredible when we realize that 1867 is not so long ago, and that we are

a young nation. It is a change that is incredible when it would seem that of necessity many of our citizens were primarily preoccupied with the pioneering, economic considerations of a challenging young country. For this reason we are proud of our Canadian artists and of our gallery.
It has been said we can best judge a man by the company he keeps, and so perhaps we can judge a country in many ways by the art it produces and appreciates. Every great country the world over has produced great art in some form or other.
We know, in Canada, that most of the early painting was done by artists who had migrated from Europe and New England and, having brought with them their material outlook and national traditions, they painted the Canadian scene coloured by their previous life and training. Even the native born painters who followed soon turned to the ateliers of Europe for their guidance. But then came the now famous group of seven and a true Canadian art seemed to be taking form. At the dawn of the century the French impressionists turned the thoughts of the Canadian painter to the pictorial possibilities of his own land. After studying abroad, artists returned with vigour and enthusiasm to paint the subjects of their native provinces.
Yet, whether we are talking about these early movements-the group of seven and the subsequent association of the Canadian group of painters-or the new modern schools, be they impressionists or not, Canadian art has never been merely a vehicle for the expression of a narrow nationalism. While depicting Canada and the Canadian spirit it has always upheld the true traditions of a universal art. We know that our artists and the national gallery under its able director will continue in this work, for a truly Canadian art with universal application has a real and peaceful message for the world of today.
I have already made reference to the group of seven. More has been written about this group than any other aspect of Canadian culture. The time was ripe and they expressed the rising tide of a new national spirit. I believe it was Charles Comfort who said:
They had just the right blend of national idealism, crusade, lyricism, audacious enterprise, and intellectual and economic independence necessary to make the movement the success it was. At the time the group of seven was preparing for its first exhibition in May of 1920, we had become a confident young nation.
In an official statement made by the group in February of 1933, it was stated, in part, that members of the group of seven have:
-always maintained for themselves and others the right of freedom of expression, believing that
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration only in diversity of outlook will there ever be a widespread interest in the arts of this country.
So it follows that true art only flourishes when our real democratic freedoms are truly preserved. It has been said before and I repeat it here this evening:
The spark from heaven, who picks it up? The crowd, never. The individual, always.
Free individual expression in the arts must flourish best under our form of democratic government which is so keenly attuned to the finest aspirations of the individual.
We were told that the first world war was the war to end all wars. Many felt that promise to be an absolute truth. This notion even coloured the creative energies of our artists. They saw a colourful, ordered world key-noted with a feeling of peace and security.
The situation following world war II is different. There is a real danger to the freedom of the individual and the true spiritual democracy for which we in the west stand. The creative artist in Canada today reflects a very different sort of a world as compared with that reflected by artists in the decade after world war II. As one of the younger Canadian painters said before the royal commission on arts, letters and science in Montreal:
Canadian painting is Canadian only by reason of being first of all painting.
Canadian painting is increasingly appreciated abroad. The admiration of the critics was aroused, at the Wembley exhibition in 1924-25 and at the exposition of the Jeu de Paume in Paris in 1927. Today our young painters are being judged on the same footing as young painters from other lands.
It is true to say that it is in the field of painting that the Canadian arts are best known at home and abroad, although if I may digress very briefly I thing that even the painters must admit that Canadians have great reason to be proud-and perhaps I am being unfair in mentioning only two names- of our Maureen Forresters and Glenn Goulds.
To return to my main theme, I believe it is true to say that it is in the field of painting that the Canadian arts are best known at home and abroad. Our reputation in the arts is perhaps based mainly on our painting at this time. Certainly it has been most consistent in expressing a real spirit of Canadianism.
In its brief to the royal commission on arts, letters and science, 1949-51, the federation of Canadian artists recommended that:
-the whole conception of the functions of the national art gallery be so revised and extended that it shall become the dynamic center of activity in the visual arts throughout the whole of Canada's urban and rural population.

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The hon. lady under whose department the national gallery comes has pretty well guaranteed us that, under the able direction of the director, this is becoming, bit by bit, a real fact.
The gallery supports and encourages many travelling exhibitions, as in the past. Its services, as has been said, extend into every corner of the nation. While located in Ottawa, as I said before, the gallery is performing a valuable service across the breadth and width of this land. For that reason I could not resist the temptation of taking up the time of the committee while I congratulated the minister and the gallery on the magnificent task they are performing in Canada today. As my friend the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate so aptly put it, "Not by bread alone do we exist".


Douglas Mason Fisher: After hearing that deeply lyrical tribute to Canadian arts I think we all appreciate and understand why the Prime Minister, whenever he has to make a speech relating to this field, takes the trouble to consult the hon. member for Brome-Mis-sisquoi.
It is not my intention to be lyrical at all.


An hon. Member:: The hon. gentleman could not be.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I want to know how much money has been spent on taking art exhibitions to smaller centres. I know there have been exhibits in larger centres but I am interested in communities with a population of less than 50,000. How many exhibitions went out and what is the estimate of the number of people who saw them last year? I should also like to know what are the plans for extending this service.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: In reply to the hon. gentleman let me say that we do not have the figures of attendance for specific places. We have a record of the travelling exhibitions and an estimate would be that they have been viewed by about 250,000 people in all but what the number would be for each place I could not say.
I believe I can tell the hon. member where these exhibitions were held, but I may not be able to pick out the communities with a population of less than 50,000. As a matter of fact, one of the difficulties in this regard is that the gallery must be careful in sending out exhibitions to ensure that the paintings will be properly protected. These exhibitions cannot be housed in buildings which are not reasonably fireproof, nor can they be displayed under circumstances where proper protection cannot be afforded. This would be

one of the reasons why some of the smaller centres could not benefit from these displays from time to time.
Some of the places which might fall into the category about which the hon. member asks are Brantford, Peterborough and Brandon. Etobicoke, of course, is part of metropolitan Toronto; I suppose it is a separate municipality. Islington, again the same would apply there.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Perhaps the minister would let me make my point in regard to this. Over, the years the national film board has developed a type of field service that takes its offerings out to the people. It is not an excellent parallel, but they do get their films out to the ordinary people in the smaller places. They have coverage mapped out. One cannot get any conception at all from the hon. lady's estimates of the national gallery of Canada, as to the number of people who are doing this job of distributing and making exhibits. I know that in eastern Ontario a couple of art circles have been built up and I think especially of one that revolves around Queen's University into which exhibits of the national gallery can dovetail or fit. I insist-and I have got the parochial northwestern Ontario view of this-that the national gallery does not mean a thing in the main except for illustrations for history books and that sort of thing until there are exhibits in that part of the country. I should like to see some indication from the estimates that there is some plan to expand and develop those services. I do not feel too sorry for the people in Brantford or Etobicoke if they cannot get to national gallery exhibits because they can go to a good art gallery in Toronto. They can go to museums there. This does not apply to people in the hinterland, in the district areas. I cannot see why this area should not demand service. There are countless members in this house who are demanding that the C.B.C. get out and provide national television coverage for everybody in the country. The hon. member for Churchill is an example of this. The hon. member for Kenora-Rainy River has the same feeling.
If we are to have national cultural agencies, surely they must keep before them, as we are insisting the C.B.C. does, the conception of national service. It is very hard for a musuem or gallery, oriented to Ottawa and to development here, to keep this in front of them especially when they have a magnificent plant and a big establishment. What I should like to suggest to the minister and to the director of the gallery is that fewer than one half of 1 per cent of my constituents will ever come to Ottawa. The distance is from

800 to 1,000 miles and in a situation such as this I think these cultural effects have to go to the people.
I have said this before in connection with both the museum and the art gallery and I should like to underline it again. I ask the hon. lady whether she can just indicate to us how many people in the national gallery are directly involved in what you might call field service, and what are the plans for improving and expanding it?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: In answer to the last question, there are seven persons at the gallery and two in the field. I might tell the hon. member that in the current estimates we have an item which will cover charges for designing special exhibits for the exhibition extension service to cover the very point that he raises, namely that of making exhibitions available to smaller centres.
I think he was quite right in what he said. It is a matter that is getting the attention of the director and his staff, and we propose to follow this course and gradually expand the extension service to the point where these exhibits may be made available to the smaller communities to a greater extent than they have been heretofore.
I might just say to the hon. member I do not believe that you can actually compare an exhibition of paintings with the showing of films, because for one thing the handling is entirely different and display is on a different basis. Security is also on a different basis. Almost every aspect of service is different in the two fields. I am sure the hon. member would not want to place valuable paintings, particularly those which cannot be replaced, in jeopardy, as they undoubtedly would be in some centres. This is the reason why this whole field is being explored and why we are asking in the current estimates for an amount for this specific purpose.


Douglas Mason Fisher: In this matter of field service, the national film board has expanded its service by putting people out in the field to exploit the field and build up connections so that they know the people who can look after projectors and that sort of thing. They train them; they develop them. They know that right across the country there are people who are interested in developing films. If the national gallery is not prepared to do this I do not know who else can do it. If you have only two field officers in all of Canada, that is a rather petty figure to carry out this chore. I happen to know one of them personally. I know the very good work she does, but how can she possibly cope with and look after this tremendous area in other than a hit-or-miss way? It is
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration just impossible to cover all the settlers from the lakehead to the west coast, let us say, who would appreciate art exhibits. I know the Toronto art gallery, for example, tries to co-operate very much. As a matter of fact, I would suggest that the Toronto art gallery is really doing a chore in Ontario in this particular field that the national gallery should be doing.
In closing, I should like to suggest to the minister that next year a number of us from the smaller places would be delighted to hear that this phase of the gallery's activities had been boosted immensely.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Mr. Chairman, I just wish to make one or two brief comments. I think we ought to be grateful to the hon. member for Kootenay West for bringing to our attention the matters that he did tonight. This is not the first time that we are indebted to his diligent and exploring mind. I was very interested to hear what he had to say about the Marquis of Lome, though it is very difficult for a Macdonnell to be fair to the memory of a Campbell after the unfortunate incident at Glencoe, but I think we should try to be magnanimous in these matters.
I was very interested in the suggestion he made and also in the suggestion made by the hon. member for Port Arthur as to the importance of making available to the public the treasures which we have. If anyone has any doubt as to the importance which art, painting and literature should occupy in human life let us remind ourselves that that peerless leader of men, Churchill, in the midst of war, and all the other things which he was doing, found time both for writing and painting.
I should like to say one more thing with reference to the pictures of world war II which I understand are available. To those of us whose memories go back to world war I, it is always, I think, a satisfying experience to go to the Senate chamber where those fine murals recalling the first world war are available. I do not know whether we have anything similar with regard to the second world war, but I would suggest with deference that after all that was one of the great periods of our national life when life was lived at its intensest. I do suggest that there ought to be somewhere available, not 10 or 20 years from now, the best records which we have of those days which we all remember very well.


Edwin William Brunsden: Mr. Chairman, this discussion has revolved around art. Unlike my friend from Kootenay West, I have no knowledge of nudes; I know very little about the Marquis of Lome. Perhaps what I am about
2374	HOUSE OF
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration to say may be slightly out of the purview of the debate. If it is, I ask for indulgence. The wisdom of the ages, sir-and the hon. member for Greenwood touched on this in his reference to that great Englishman, Sir Winston Churchill and his paintings and writings. The wisdom of the ages is before us in words, and I am deeply concerned with the creation of a real national library. It was my impression some time ago that there were two countries in the world without a national library, Canada and Ghana. I learned later that Ghana had a national library and I was informed that there were the rudiments of a national library in Canada.


Jacques Flynn: Order. May I suggest to the hon. member that his remarks will be more appropriate under vote 319 which has to do with the public archives and national library.


Edwin William Brunsden: Thank you, sir.


Mr. McGee:: Mr. Chairman, I am sorry I did not hear the remarks of the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate and the hon. member for Kootenay West and perhaps I may refer to matters they have already raised. I also regret very much that I did not hear the earlier part of the speech of the hon. member for Brome-Missisquoi.
It is not very often that I have occasion to quarrel with the hon. member for Greenwood either philosphically or with respect to the very profound and valuable contributions he makes to the house, but I am afraid we part company on the subject of the murals in the Senate. I have the greatest respect for those persons, the hon. member particularly, who served in the first world war. Several of my uncles are buried in France as a result of that conflict. I understand that the murals in the other place are the result of the generosity of a wealthy Canadian and I sometimes find myself wondering whether what goes on in the other place is perhaps essentially none of our business in the House of Commons. However, occasionally our duty requires us to visit there, and I must confess that I am deeply unimpressed by the particular art form to be seen there.
I understand that these murals were painted and presented immediately after the first world war and the further coincidence of the burning of the parliament buildings. I do not know whether it is the business of the minister or the gallery, but I should like to offer the suggestion that consideration might be given to having something in the form of murals in the other place that would be more representative of Canada. Canada existed before the first world war and has


continued to exist since. Great events have occurred in every area of our national life, and to devote the entire space there simply to murals of the first world war seems to me, quite apart from my own artistic evaluation of them, something that might be reconsidered. Procedures in the other place are not the most mobile in the world and if we start now, perhaps by the time some of us are old enough to qualify, something may have happened in the interval.
I am concerned about the national gallery.
I had occasion to visit the gallery last session during the noon hour in response to the notices which are sent to members, for which I personally am very grateful. I was impressed with the calibre and standard of the Van Gogh exhibit particularly, but there is something that has always concerned me about the gallery. I refer to the hours that the gallery is open. The population of Ottawa is made up largely of civil servants and those whose activities relate in a very important way to the civil service. If we are to stay within the framework of an eight hour day, it seems to me some consideration should be given to shortening the hours the gallery is open during the early part of the day and extending the time for viewing in the evening.
As far as the people of Ottawa are concerned, by opening the gallery when people go to work and having it closed when people are free to go and visit the gallery it seems to me that in a sense we are defeating the purpose of the gallery. I suggest that some consideration be given to staggering the hours so that people generally in Ottawa will be able to visit the gallery in the evening.
In the township of North York, in my constituency, exhibitions are held at the North York library from time to time. I participated in the opening of one exhibition which was a one man show by Fred Varley. This grand old man of Canadian art was there in person, and as full of life and personality as his paintings. In connection with the exhibition, films of the life of Varley made by the national film board were shown in another part of the library building.
I have suggested in the house before that particularly when the house is not sitting, films such as "The Sceptre and the Mace" should be shown in the parliament buildings on a continuous basis for the benefit of tourists. It seems to me this is something that might be done at the national gallery as well and if it were combined with evening shows at the gallery couples with their children could spend a few hours not only viewing the paintings on display but also finds films related to the exhibits. The national film board has some excellent films dealing

with all of the members of the group of seven and several other prominent Canadian artists since that time.
I am suggesting two things, that we think about changing the hours and also combining films with the exhibits. I do not think it would take too much imagination to bring this about.
I am sure there are documentary films available from other countries, and again I am thinking of the Van Gogh exhibit. There must be films available dealing with his life that could be obtained and used. It seems to me the most important thing is to take full advantage of the national gallery and to have it open for a longer period during the evening.
I asked this delicate question last year and it was not answered. I hope I do a little better this year. I should like to know two things. I should like to know how the restaurant is doing in terms of profit or loss. I have never managed to eat there but I have been in the area on two occasions during the noon hour and the restaurant seemed to be well filled. If it is not doing too well, as I suspect it is not, I wonder whether any thought has been given to reconsidering the original director's suggestion that there should be a cocktail lounge in connection with the restaurant. I understand from some of my friends in this restaurant business that one way to guarantee putting the operation on a profitable basis, and improving the quality of food, is to combine a cocktail lounge with the restaurant. I should like the minister to enlighten me on these aspects of the situation.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Before the minister speaks, I should like to make one or two comments which will save her making an extra speech. In the first place, I am sorry the hon. member for Kootenay West is temporarily absent from the chamber because I wanted to take the strongest possible exception to his definition of a unionist. He does not seem to realize that unionists were Liberals, and the extraordinary definition that he conjured out of the air tonight was not really one of his major contributions to history but rather, I would say, to fancy.
I should also like to tell the hon. member for York-Scarborough that once before there was a politician who suggested that those first world war murals be taken out of the Senate and he is no longer in public life.
While I am not seeking to go into any of the circumstances and to ask the hon. lady to take action in connection with them because what has happened has happened, I want to express my very great regret at the resignation and severance of his connection with the national gallery of Mr. Donald Buchanan. Mr. Donald Buchanan, in my opinion, has contributed as much to the development of the appreciation of the arts
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration as has any living Canadian, bar none. Prior to that time, in his connection with the C.B.C., he did more than did any other single person to develop the Canadian tradition of controversial broadcasting on a fair and reasonable basis. That is another thing that I think was worked out almost uniquely in this country, almost before it was worked out anywhere else. He happens to be an old personal friend but I am not saying this on that account. To me, he is one of the Canadians who has made a contribution to our cultural life that is almost unique. I hope that he, having severed his connection with the gallery, does not intend to sever his connection with Canada and that he will find some other useful field into which he can direct his great energies and his sensitive appreciation of those things which I think all too many of us do not appreciate enough.
I should also like to make one observation -and perhaps the minister would like to extend this a bit-about what the hon. member for Port Arthur said. I happen to be one of those Canadians who, quite a long time ago now, first became interested in Canadian pictures not because of what was done by the art gallery of Toronto or by any other institution but because of the wonderful reproductions which over the years have been made available to the Canadian public at extremely low cost indeed, and which have been promoted fairly actively by the national gallery. Although it is true that there are grave difficulties and no one should underestimate them; we have seen what happens to pictures even in the art gallery of Toronto and in some other places, for example recently in Vancouver. The safety of the originals must be the first consideration because these pictures are extremely valuable. However, by the use of reproductions and, as the hon. member for York-Scarborough said a moment ago, by the use of films and that sort of thing, there is a possibility of doing something. Seeing reproductions is not as good, I admit, as being able to see the originals but it is a fairly good substitute; for the beginner, I think in many ways it is almost better than the original. This kind of service can be made available, in the case of reproductions, to any place that has a post office and in the case of films, to any place in which electricity in any of its varied forms of production can be made available.
Finally, may I say that I think it would be useful if the hon. lady would clear up all this mass of rumour that has been going on for the last six months or so about whether the new empire builder in the government, namely the Minister of Trade and Commerce,

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration has gobbled up the design centre and has pushed the hon. lady out into the cold. I think it is about time that the government came clean and told parliament just what the score is, who is responsible for the design centre, and who must argue for it before treasury board. I have no doubt whatever that the Minister of Trade and Commerce, if he even has his toe in the door, will take all the credit. But if the hon. lady has the responsibility, I would rather see her get it, I may say quite frankly.
I thought I understood her to say that the north gallery, the one facing Albert street and formerly employed for the exposition of design projects, was to provide additional space for paintings. Therefore, we should like to know where the exhibits of the design centre are going to be.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: First of all, I should like to say that we all regret, as the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate has said, that Mr. Buchanan has severed his connection with the gallery. We agree with everything he has said in that regard. However, Mr. Buchanan has chosen to live in Europe and to continue his interest in creative writing. We hope that this will not be a permanent separation from Canada, but it is a matter of his own choice and something over which we have no control.
With reference to the industrial design centre, may I say this? It is true that it has been transferred from the national gallery to the Department of Trade and Commerce, where I understand it will be set up under slightly different circumstances, but that is a matter for the Minister of Trade and Commerce to explain to the house.
I should like to tell the hon. member for York-Scarborough that the national gallery is open every day except Christmas day. It is open each day from ten o'clock a.m. to six o'clock p.m. On Tuesdays it is open right through until ten o'clock p.m. Films are shown in the theatre there every Saturday and on some Tuesday evenings. The extension of these services, of course, is dependent to a large degree on the utilization of the service and on the funds which we can acquire for an expansion program.


Mr. Pitman:: I should like to go back to this problem which the hon. member for Port Arthur raised. If we are going to have a national gallery, it must be very much national in interest. I certainly appreciate the opinion of the hon. lady that sending originals to small places is a great risk indeed. In fact, I know of one librarian who loses a great deal of sleep when one of these exhibits turns up at his particular establishment. It is a tremendous responsibility and the problems of fire and theft are very great indeed. I wonder

whether the answer does not lie in what the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate suggested. The printing processes today are getting better than they were in the past. I think you get a clarity and depth and colour through these printing processes which are almost as accurate as the originals. Possibly you could send exhibitions of these prints throughout Canada. I think we can only really gain an appreciation of art perhaps at a very early stage in our development.
I wonder whether the minister would think over the possibilities of gathering together kits of paintings-for instance of the Kane paintings, Canadian historical paintings or renaissance paintings and sending them to schools. Perhaps this has already been started. I know the prints which are on sale at the national gallery are excellent indeed. I think this is an area in which the national gallery could perhaps expand its services. I am sure that it would receive the support of a great many members of this house who represent smaller centres. With these few remarks I think I should like to place my vote-and possibly join the hon. member for York-Scarborough in political oblivion-against those murals in the Senate as well.


Harold Edward Winch: Mr. Chairman, art is something about which I know absolutely nothing. Therefore I must speak on it.


An hon. Member:: Go right ahead.


Harold Edward Winch: When I say that, I do not say it in any boastful manner at all. I am sorry that I just happen to be one of those individuals who, in music are tone deaf and for whom art does not do anything at all, even though I have visited some of the finest art galleries of the world. I know that I am one of the few who are just not affected by art and who do not understand it. However, the majority enjoy it. Therefore I certainly want to add my words to those of other hon. members with regard to the possibility of getting more of the benefits of the national gallery to far more of the people of Canada. I think it is a shame that we should have valuable paintings in storage when there are so many people across Canada who would like to see them and to enjoy them. I say they will. My greatest experience with an art gallery was in connection with the Vancouver art gallery at the time of the sit-down strike, when they put us out of there with tear-gas bombs. Maybe that is why I am not too fond of art.


An hon. Member:: Art made you cry?


Harold Edward Winch: Art really made me cry that day, and I don't mean maybe.


An hon. Member:: Apparently it did not
hurt you.


Harold Edward Winch: It did not hurt me at all when it came to getting votes, if that is what you mean. The main reason for these remarks, Mr. Chairman, is the information we have received that the pictures of the first world war are still in storage.
It was a great experience for me a year and a half ago in Australia when I visited their most famous war memorials. We found that in the cities of Melbourne and Canberra the major attraction to the people living in those cities, and to visitors, was the war memorials and the fact that they were built around a graphic study of pictures showing what the first world war was actually like and what the conditions actually were.
The reaction of the young people in particular, when they saw these pictures of what their fathers and relatives had to go through at that time not only gave them a thirst for knowledge of the first world war and of their ancestors, but it also illustrated to them the horrors of war and gave them the determination that we must not have another one.
I have not, of course, seen these pictures which are in storage in Ottawa, but after hearing the comments in Canberra and Melbourne I think it would be not only in the interests of education in art and history, but an indication that we should not repeat in the future something that happened in the past. I am sure this would be the reaction if these paintings were assembled and put on display on a basis similar to that in Australia. They would be an education in art, history and in the horrors of war. I certainly hope that if this has not been thought of in the past by the minister and the director of the national art gallery that they will now give some thought to it. There is a threefold value to be gained by this type of picture of the first world war.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, I invite the hon. member for Vancouver East to visit the sixth floor of the national gallery, where the paintings of the first world war are on continuous exhibition and are being rotated all the time.
We have more of these paintings than we can hang at one time. There is a continuous exhibition on the sixth floor of the national gallery.


Harold Edward Winch: I know, but my idea was to have all these pictures properly planned and on display at all times, as they are in Melbourne. People take the entire day just going around from one picture to the other, and it is a real education.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I am sorry; we have not the space to do that.
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration


Frank Charles McGee: Mr. Chairman, in view of the remarks of the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate concerning political oblivion I should just like to make this comment, that if after some of the speeches I have heard him make in this House of Commons he did not commit himself to political oblivion years ago, I am not too worried about the remarks I made concerning the Senate.
This occurred to me on reflection after the minister's reply. There was another world war and we all profoundly hope it will turn out to be the last world war, with the emphasis on the "last". If the Senate is somehow wedded to this warlike atmosphere perhaps some thought might be given to the gallery commissioning some artists who still have vivid recollections of the last world war. I refer to people like Hindman and others who were commissioned by the services during the war to paint some murals. These might alternate on the walls of the Senate. They seem to spend money doing some odd things over there. I have noticed that they seem to be involved in painting their names on the ceiling of the foyer. This is an interesting occupation, but I think this idea of commissioning artists to paint second world war scenes might be considered.
With regard to the minister's reply concerning the hours of opening of the national gallery, if I understood her correctly it works out to one evening a week, Tuesday. I think this is a good thing. I was not aware of this. In view of the fact that the house is sitting and most of us are here, perhaps we would not get an opportunity to go over there on Tuesday evenings. It might be a good thing to extend the hours of opening to at least one more evening. The minister also mentioned that films are shown on Saturday afternoons. I would suggest that these films be also shown during the evening sessions.
As I mentioned in my previous remarks, I did not receive an answer last year to my question about the restaurant. I am serious in this regard. I should like to know the financial situation of the restaurant, whether it is making or losing money. I should also like to know what is the position with regard to Alan Jarvis' idea of a cocktail lounge. I did not receive an answer to these questions last year or this evening.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I did overlook the question of the restaurant when I replied to the hon. member. But this is not the responsibility of the gallery; it is a concession which is handled between the Department of Public Works and the Canadian National Institute for the Blind.
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Supply-Citizenship and Immigration


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Chairman, I am sure the minister will welcome this general discussion in support of this particular vote. A nation is possibly, in this secular world of ours, more often characterized by contemporaries by achievement in the industrial, commercial and secular fields, but not always in the judgment of history. In connection with those things of the spirit, heart and mind a nation is likely to be judged with more cogency than by any other form of endeavour.
By our interest in art, music, education and in these general areas of intellectual activity, we will be possibly judged in the future more than by our material achievements. Therefore I think it is well that when the inspiration comes we should join in expressing our views, immature obviously as some of them have been thus far, on these matters that have such great significance.
When I speak of immaturity of course I do not in this particular have in mind the minister herself. I do not wish anyone to think that because the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate and I are associated in support of the same political ideology we are fully in accord with all aspects of our national life. I do not wish to assert that in this particular he does not enjoy preeminence over me both in terms of experience and authority. But I should like it to be known that he is not the only one in this party-and I say this by way of no reflection on him and his attainments-who is interested in this matter.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I have never claimed to be the only egghead.


Paul Joseph James Martin: My hon. friend says he is not the only egghead, and I would be the last to claim that distinction. I simply wish him to know-and I say this in the friendliest manner to a colleague-that there are others who have their views about the desirability of furthering an interest in Canadian painting and Canadian culture.
We all recognize the hon. gentleman to be pre-eminent in that field. I do not want him to think I am in any way taking away from his grandeur or the high priority that he has in that regard. I agree with him, however, in what he said about Mr. Donald Buchanan. Mr. Buchanan, was a contemporary of mine at the university. That gentleman has made a contribution, first of all to the gallery, to the design centre, and of course through his writings-his two books -particularly to Canadian painting and to an appreciation of art itself. His books on Morrice and on Canadian painting stamp him as a man of very great cultivation. I


would hope that his sojourn outside the country at this time may be temporary, so that he may return to Canada and continue the contribution which undoubtedly, as the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate has said, he has made to this country and to Canadian painting, and to the appreciation of art generally.
He is not, of course, the only one who has made a contribution. I think we should in this national forum, this national parliament, recognize the contributions made by some other Canadians. It is dangerous to mention any Canadian in particular for fear of overlooking others who have also made contributions. However I think it is proper to remember the interest taken by the former governor general, Mr. Massey, both as a director of the national gallery and as one who has the direction of the Massey foundation. The accomplishments of Hart House and the rich contribution which Hart House has made to Canadian painting are largely the result of his imagination and initiative.
There are others like Mr. John Macauley of Winnipeg, one of the notable collectors, I believe of painting in Canada-not only Canadian paintings, but the works of some of the acknowledged masters. Mr. Macauley's service as a director of the national gallery was, I think, a distinguished contribution in this field. I think it deserves to be mentioned.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Is.


Paul Joseph James Martin: He is still a director? I am glad to know that. I thought he had retired about a year ago. I am sure the director of the gallery and the minister would acknowledge at once the contribution he has made and continues to make. There are others like the late Mr. Southam, Mr. Percy Fell and many others who, perhaps, unnoticed by many of us have added to our enrichment by their interest and by their unselfish devotion to the direction of the national gallery. I agree with the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate-and I seem increasingly more to establish the fact that I am more in agreement with him than in disagreement- I agree with him that the reproduction of some of the Canadian paintings, in particular those which have been distributed throughout our libraries, throughout our schools, and right in this building in the offices of many members of parliament serve a most desirable purpose.
By the way, I think we owe to the late Mr. Claxton much of the inspiration for the distribution of these reproductions. I well remember first going into Mr. Claxton's home in Montreal about 20 years ago and seeing there, I think, the strongest collection of Canadian paintings I had ever seen in any

one home, except, possibly in that of Canada's former governor general. Mr. Claxton took a great interest in Canadian painting. This was only one facet of his great life. He, in his way, inspired many people to appreciate the value of the work of Canadian artists.
The value of these reproductions, however, lies not only in their quality, but in bringing to many thousands of people in this country who are denied the opportunity of visiting galleries, either provincial or national, an acquaintanceship with some of the work of many of our Canadian artists whose original paintings are to be found in the national gallery or in some of the provincial galleries. I well remember once visiting Mr. Henderson in Qu'Appelle, one of those Canadian artists who has perhaps done as much as any other western artist in portraying, particularly, the Qu'Appelle valley and, possibly, to a lesser extent the prairies. I believe three of his paintings are now to be found in the national gallery. I remember his telling me how much he appreciated the initiative taken by Mr. Claxton in seeing to it that two of his paintings were reproduced. He showed me one of them, and the satisfaction which was visible on Mr. Henderson's face justifies my recounting this incident tonight in the hope that this work of reproduction will be continued.
As I say, the value is not so much in the quality of the reproduction, as in that it affords to many Canadians an opportunity of seeing something of these works. This suggests to my mind that there is a strong argument not only for providing reproductions of valuable Canadian paintings, but for seeing to it that there are also reproductions of other paintings. Painting, like poetry, is something which has a national touch about it. But surely, also, it is something which extends across national boundaries. The Canadian interest in painting should not be confined to Canadian painting. It should extend to the works of all artists-the men and women great and small, who have put the consequences of their imagination on canvas-the great painters, the great classicists.
These works, too, should be appreciated and known, and the opportunity for doing so should be afforded. These, too, should be seen by Canadians. I would hope that the suggestion made by the hon. member for Vancouver East might be acted upon, perhaps to a greater extent than is now the case. It may be difficult to provide for mobile exhibitions of some particular paintings, but it should not be difficult to provide for Canadians to see in their local galleries some of the paintings we have here in the national gallery. I do not know what the technical
90205-6-151
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration difficulties are, but we now have springing up in Canada in many communities, where a decade ago there were no local galleries at all, galleries and strong local groups themselves engaged in painting and in encouraging the establishment and maintenance of local galleries. I have in mind, for instance, my own community, the city of Windsor, an industrial city, where we have at Willistead, an art gallery in the Willistead library-a very fine local gallery. I should like to pay tribute tonight to the men and women connected with that gallery who have done so much to acquaint the citizens of my city and my county with the value of Canadian painting and of painting generally.
The other day I attended an exhibition in that gallery, an exhibition of paintings executed by citizens of Essex county. It was indeed a revelation to me, as I am sure it was to many others. I suggest to the minister and the director that there is a magnificent opportunity to demonstrate not only to Canadians in my part of the country, but to citizens of the United States across the Detroit river, the high standard of Canadian painting, through exhibiting Canadian works of art in the Willistead gallery.
In the city of Detroit there is a very fine municipal gallery, the Detroit institute of arts, but as one who frequents that gallery from time to time, I cannot recall that there are any Canadian paintings displayed there. I am sure that if the Willistead gallery were adequately stocked with Canadian paintings these would be viewed not only by Canadians living on the Canadian side but by people from the United States living across the Detroit river. The admirable work being done by the Detroit institute of arts could be supplemented by the work of the Willistead gallery, in the sense I have indicated, by providing an increased opportunity of exhibiting Canadian paintings in the Willistead gallery.
I wish to join with the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate in another submission he made. Here again I am expressing agreement, not disagreement, as I indicated I was about to do when I began these cursory remarks. I agree with the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate that the Minister of Trade and Commerce, that vigorous and dynamic personality, must not be allowed to push the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration out of the design centre. The design centre was never intended for the Minister of Trade and Commerce.
The hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate and I, and I am sure the hon. member for Greenwood and the hon. member for York-Scarborough and all the other great intellectual precursors in this committee, will
2380	HOUSE OF
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration gather behind the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration in resisting the philistines, like the Minister of Justice and others, who seek to invade territory which under the law as it now exists was intended to come under the jurisdiction of the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration. To say that the design centre-


William Heward Grafftey: There is no such design.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Chairman, I must take this occasion to enlist the cooperation-and this is the first occasion on which I have done so-of the hon. member for Brome-Missisquoi, who sits on the opposite side of the chamber this evening, because I am sure the hon. member wants to fully appreciate the significance of the quality which now attends this intellectual dissertation.
I feel there is nothing further I can usefully add with respect to this matter except to say this. Our country, like every other country, will be judged not by its material achievements alone, but by achievements in writing, in painting and in the appreciation of those things that do move men and nations and mould the character of peoples. It is because I believe that to be the case that I join with the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate, who in his brilliant exposition of Canadian painting tonight, has inspired me into supporting at least this one vote put forward by the present government.


Mr. Henderson:: Mr. Chairman-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


John Whitney Pickersgill: We are hearing from all the eggheads.


Walter Clarence Henderson: Mr. Chairman, I thoroughly enjoyed the oration this evening of that famous friend of agriculture and of labour who apparently spends his time visiting in the homes of millionaires viewing their art collections. I come from way out in the jungle, Dawson Creek to be exact. I wonder if the hon. gentleman would care to make an arrangement with some of these wonderful friends of his who have these paintings to send an exhibit of painting up to Dawson Creek?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I will certainly do my best.


Mr. Small:: Mr. Chairman, I would consider myself fortunate indeed this evening if I were able to get on at this end of the program. I can only offer up a very fervent prayer at this juncture that I am not included in the galaxy of hon. members to whom the hon. member for Essex East referred in his wonderful remarks.


I sat here while the hon. gentleman spoke, wondering if the hon. gentleman's latest canonization has gone to his head because he was waxing so eloquent, especially when he was defending his colleague the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate.
I was highly impressed by the remarks made by the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate when he opened the debate. The hon. gentleman started off on a very high and esoteric plane and the debate was carried on in this vein by the hon. member for Kootenay West. I thought it was simply remarkable.
The hon. gentleman started off by saying that he was most impressed by this wonderful new building which houses the national art gallery, the Lome building. He explained how he looked out of his office and envisaged the genius of the architects who had brought forth this magnificent new structure which was going to go down in history as a monument to the Liberal regime which got the vision.
I continued to listen the hon. member for Kootenay West who gave a very graphic description which held us all entranced. It was then revealed that the new building is going to be occupied by the national art gallery only temporarily and the actual national art gallery is going to be located somewhere else. At that moment the vision began to fade and grow dim.
The hon. gentleman then went on to say that the building was named after the Marquis of Lome, a former governor general. On the basis of his description it might well have been named after the marquis of forlorn because this magificent new building is to become very forlorn when the art gallery is moved and placed somewhere else. We have learned that the national gallery is going to be moved and it will also be forlorn in its new location because apparently it is going to be put out where no one will go out and visit it.
One interesting fact that came to light during the debate was that attendance at the national gallery has been simply phenomenal, that the attendance grew from practically nothing to an astounding figure. 1 believe the obvious explanation is that the national gallery is now located in the right place. It is easily accessible and many people are able to visit it.
Before too long others will probably have a vision of the new art gallery which they will put on paper so all of us can see it. I hope they will bear in mind the fact that the building should be centrally located so that it will be readily accessible.
The hon. member for Fort William was also very forlorn because the present national

art gallery does not have a sign. As I listened to the hon. member I could not help but wonder what was the matter with the people in the sign business in Ottawa. I wondered why they had not got busy long ago and sold a sign to the national art gallery to identify it.
The hon. member said that he is forlorn because no one is going to visit the gallery. Who are we to believe? We have been told by one hon. member that the attendance has been magnificent and outstanding and could not have been better, and by another member that no one attended.
The hon. member for Kootenay West went on to say that instead of looking at the magnificent picture of the Marquis of Lome the people moved over to examine a picture of a nude. The hon. gentleman was not standing in front of the picture of the Marquis but to the side. I suppose he was trying to get a side view of the nude.
This brought to my mind the fact that in the thirties Esquire magazine published some highly amusing cartoons. I recall seeing one depicting three paintings in an art gallery which told a story somewhat the reverse of the one told by the hon. member. One painting was of a nude, one was a somewhat dismal and flat landscape and the third was a rather dull still-life with flowers, and fruit on a plate. Where do you think the crowd had gathered? They had gathered in front of the landscape, and apparently the nude did not interest them at all. Apparently remarkable things happen in art galleries. However, I should like to say that the remarks made by the hon. member for Port Arthur and the hon. members for Peterborough and Scarborough were apropos. The hon. member for Vancouver East made a pertinent point which should be taken into consideration. With respect to the pictures in the Senate, the only reason I can give for their being there is that probably that is the only place large enough to hang them. Now that we have a new gallery perhaps we will find a place for them.
Let us get back to the matter of the art gallery. Mention was made tonight of how Canadian art came to life in the 1920's. It really came to the notice of the people of Canada because the artists of that day, called the magnificent group of seven, transmitted to canvas the rugged vigorous nature of Canada that no one else had been able to capture or surpass. They will go down in history. Some day you will find their paintings in the United States galleries and in other galleries throughout the world, and eventually those paintings will become highly valued and much wanted in the world's great art galleries. The only trouble is there will not
90205-6-151J
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration be enough of them to go around. If there are not enough to go around, we can supply them with the abstract art or modern art.
On every occasion that I get an opportunity I visit the Toronto art gallery. They come up with some wonderful exhibits. Recently they had an exhibition of pictures by John Sargent. They also have some wonderful pictures on exhibition painted by Hals, Raeburn, Rembrandt and Van Dyck. Afterwards I went around and looked into the other rooms of the gallery where they have those abstracts. Of course, I am sure that the national gallery here has in its basement or someplace else carloads of these things that they would like to have taken away to the dump if they could get somebody to do it. Well, I generally have a look at these abstract canvases. I think it was Sir Winston Churchill who said when he was going to paint: "Think of an innocent, nice, beautiful piece of canvas that is going to suffer the desecration that we people put on it!" I look at these abstracts and I see what mental aberrations have been transmitted to canvas. Sometimes I wonder whether they have been smoking marijuana cigarettes or whether they have given themselves a jab in the arm with cocaine, or whether it is just mental torment or the remains of delirium tremens that they put on canvas. There they are. You make your decision, and then to get a lift you go back to the art gallery and look at the beautiful pictures that have come down from the middle ages, and you say to yourself, "What wonderful artists they were". Then we have to put up with this tripe called modern art that we see on the walls of art galleries.
After listening to what was said by the minister and by the hon. member for Bon-avista-Twillingate, I thought what a wonderful picture we have now. We have the right building in the right place. We have the right director at the right time in the right place. Then I realized that it was only an illusion that we have not the right building in the right place. We have some other kind of building in the right place, but we do have the right director at the right time and we have to be thankful for that. I am going to leave this with hon. members tonight because I get tired trying to figure out the position of the members of the Liberal party. They argue between themselves as to who is going to get the honour for the emanation of this magnificent building, the admiration of the Liberal party. In the future we will get a good national gallery for the city of Ottawa, and it will be the vision of the Conservative party as usual.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Mr. Chairman, I just wanted to give an explanation perhaps to the hon.
2382	HOUSE OF
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration member who has just spoken as to the magnificent attendance, and I was going to bring this up when we were listening to one of the doyens of the house, the hon. member for Essex East, discoursing on his appreciation of art from an intellectual point of view. The explanation, I would take it, as perhaps the hon. member for Essex East would give it, lies in this. Ottawa in the main, seems to be a Liberal city in so far as votes are concerned. One of the gentlemen to whom the hon. member was referring made this statement two years ago, that the Tories never did give a damn about art. If you reverse this to a certain degree, I think you perhaps have an explanation of a kind as to why the gallery is so popular in the city of Ottawa. But I do want to pass the information to the hon. member for York-Scarborough that there were a great number of painters out doing war painting in world war II. I do not know where the paintings are but they were out in the various units. Several were in the line. I remember one in our regiment. We were always looking at what he was painting. In Holland he was painting a bridge called Moerjsdik. It was the dullest painting I have ever encountered. I cannot say much about the man. He may not have been much of an artist but he was very capable in a game called stook, a western game. He exhibited great artistry in covering his hole card. At this he was very good.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I do not think the hon. lady has ever given an answer about the design centre, and that was a serious question.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Yes, I did. My hon. friend was busy talking to his colleague and he did not hear it. He can read it in Hansard.


John Whitney Pickersgill: It must have been a very short answer. Perhaps the hon. lady can say whether the estimates for the design centre are still under her control and where the design centre is.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: The estimates for the design centre are in the Department of Trade and Commerce.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Where is the design centre going to be?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I think the hon. member will have to ask the Minister of Trade and Commerce.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
25i. Payment to the national gallery purchase account tor the purpose ot acquiring works of art in conformity with section 8 of the National Gallery Act, $200,000.
Mr. Best:: I should like to make a few brief remarks on this particular vote, Mr. Chairman. I have enjoyed the debate so far this


evening. I should like to congratulate the director of the National Art Gallery and his staff on the excellent work they are doing in their fine new building. It has been my privilege in a few moments that I have had to spare from time to time to visit this gallery, and I hope to do so more frequently in the future.
I should like to add to the remarks made by the hon. members for York-Scarborough and Port Arthur regarding war paintings of world war II. I believe we have a very fair number of these in our railway committee room in the parliament buildings. Great contributions in this field were made during world war II by the present director of the national gallery, Dr. Comfort, and people such as Mr. Will Ogilvy, Carl Schaeffer, and other prominent Canadian artists.
I was rather amazed at the self-admiration society we had here this evening on the other side of the house, and I refer particularly to the hon. members for Bonavista-Twillingate and Essex East. I felt that the hon. member for Essex East was rather crowding his way into the artistic sun, so to speak, staking out a piece of territory there, perhaps in jealous admiration of his predecessor the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate rising from his seat.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Quite true.


Charles Alexander (Sandy) Best: We were surprised to hear the member for Essex East grant pre-eminence in the artistic field, as I believe he did, to the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate. This sort of admission is rare in this house, for pre-eminence in any field to be granted to someone else by the hon. member for Essex East.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I think the hon. member is under a misapprehension. He is now speaking on vote No. 253 which was passed some time ago. I thought No. 254 had been passed but we are wandering back to it again.


Charles Alexander (Sandy) Best: No. I wanted to speak on 254, the purchase account, which we are now on.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I thought the hon. member was talking on the other one.


John Whitney Pickersgill: The hon. member was just being as relevant as the rest of us.


George Clyde Nowlan: Don't insult him.


Charles Alexander (Sandy) Best: Briefly, Mr. Chairman, the hon. member referred to individuals as intellectual precursors. There are many precursors to intellect, including fish, so I am told-


John Whitney Pickersgill: Quite right.


Charles Alexander (Sandy) Best: -but perhaps we can go into that at length at some other time. I am interested in this vote because, to be frank, the amount of money has fluctuated greatly from year to year. I am very glad to see that the amount has been increased by $50,000 for 1961-62. In our national gallery we must have in my opinion paintings brought to Canada from many parts of the world, frequently at great cost. We must have paintings old and new from many countries as well as paintings from our own Canadian artists.
I think it is perhaps just as well that the national gallery does not buy on the basis of the sort of criticism or personal preference that may often be expressed in the House of Commons. In my view that is probably a healthy situation. We all have our personal ideas as to what we like in art, and our ideas in this field are probably as varied or even more so than in the field of politics.
I should like to remark that I hope the gallery is collecting representative works of young Canadian artists as widely as possible. I know they do this to some extent but I have heard some slight criticism in the past that certain groups of our prominent young artists may perhaps have been overlooked. I think our collections in this field should be truly representative as these young artists mature.
I am sure the gallery is also following another method which to a degree might be expanded. I have in mind keeping close track of our young Canadian artists so as to know where they are and what they are doing. Perhaps they might be catalogued to some extent so that they might be better represented in exhibitions in this country and abroad, and also from the point of view of purchases by buyers from other countries. These young artists will be the greatest force in this field in Canada in the future and I think it is of paramount importance that the national gallery continue its work of collecting the best examples of their work and perhaps offer them even more encouragement in this direction.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
PUBLIC ARCHIVES AND NATIONAL LIBRARY Public archives-
319. General administration and technical services, $716,268.
John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, I wonder whether the hon. lady would be agreeable to having the national film board called next so that the hon. member for Dollard, who cannot be here tomorrow, can make an observation or two.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Is 319 carried?
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration


John Whitney Pickersgill: No. The suggestion I made was that we might call the film board before the archives because the hon. member for Dollard, who absolutely cannot be here tomorrow, would like to make one or two observations about the film board which is in his riding.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I have no objection to that. I thought it was a little more convenient to take the archives and national library first because usually there is not as much discussion on them as there is on the film board. I thought we might leave the film board until the last but I have no objection if you wish to call vote 251.


Harold Edward Winch: You only have two and a half minutes.


Jacques Flynn: Is it agreed that we proceed with vote 251?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
Item stands.
National film board-
251. Administration, production and distribution of films and other visual materials, $4,988,112.


Guy Rouleau: Mr. Chairman, I wish to thank the minister most sincerely for calling the estimates of the national film board at this time. I only have a few words to say to the charming lady who happens to be the minister responsible for the film board and they will be words of praise for the work done by the board. I wish to congratulate the chairman and members of the board and its employees for the work they are doing.
The national film board was once described by an older friend of mine who also happens to be an old friend of the member for Russell-I refer to the mayor of Ottawa, Miss Charlotte Whitton-as the most important medium of communication and information. The purpose of the board is and has been ever since its creation to make Canada better known to the Canadian people and to contribute to the projection of Canada abroad. I am happy to say that the board has discharged its responsibilities very well and deserves our appreciation.
The national film board has been granted a well deserved citizenship award and the board quite rightly is exhibiting the national citizenship award in the entrance lobby of its headquarters in St. Laurent which happens to be in my constituency. This award speaks for itself.
With regard to the purpose of making Canada better known to the Canadian people, I was very much impressed by what I read in the annual report of the board for 1959-60. According to the report, the board completed
2384	HOUSE OF
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration during the fiscal year 1959-60 353 film productions. Furthermore, in promoting the use of Canadian films by groups of all kinds the board has put 10,182 prints of its films into circulation in Canada. Films produced by the board were distributed to the Canadian people, to people of other lands, to community organizations of all kinds, to commercial theatres and television stations.
As in previous years several films produced by the board were awarded prizes by various countries throughout the world, including France, Italy, Spain, Germany, Switzerland and the United States. In 1958 the minister asked parliament to vote an additional amount of money for the production of films in foreign languages. We as members of parliament cannot place too much emphasis on the importance of such productions if we are to give other nations of the world a proper projection of Canada and the Canadian people. In order that peoples of other lands who cannot understand either of the two official languages of Canada will receive our message, we should make available to them films produced by the national film board in their own languages. Having that in mind, Mr. Chairman, I should like to ask the hon. lady three questions. I should like to know how much money the board is spending in foreign language versions, what the board will be spending in the next year and what is its present stock of foreign language versions of its films.
Before resuming my seat I should like to remind the board that we shall soon be celebrating the centennial of confederation in 1867. It is my opinion that the board should start working on the production of films relating to our history so that they may be ready in 1967 to show in Canada and abroad.
(Translation):
In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, I should like the national film board to be in a position to produce films, as of now, as a preliminary to the confederation centennial celebration.
The national film board could relate the history of two peoples who have united and worked in harmony in the past. Even if there were conflicts between them at times, both made Canada the great country we know now.
Canada's history, though brief, is none the less rich and the national film board could derive its inspiration from it to produce films which would make our country better known. Canadians as well as other people could benefit from such films.
(Text):


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Perhaps with the indulgence of the committee I could answer those


three questions asked by the hon. member. This year $120,690 will be spent on foreign language versions. That is an increase in the appropriation of $30,000 over last year. We now have 700 versions in 34 languages. Next year we expect to have between 90 and 100 versions extra, over and above that number.


Some hon. Members:: Carried.


Jacques Flynn: Shall vote 251 carry?


Harold Edward Winch: No.
Progress reported.
Resolutions adopted in committee of supply this day reported and concurred in.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

John Whitney Pickersgill: I wonder whether I could make this suggestion to the house leader. In view of the fact that it now seems to be necessary for the Minister of Labour to inspire questions from his supporters in order to make explanations of his department, may I suggest that the government go ahead and call the labour estimates tomorrow so that we can debate these things in the house in a proper way.


Harold Edward Winch: May I ask the indulgence of the house to inquire what the business will be for tomorrow?


George Clyde Nowlan: In reply to the leader of the opposition, may I say that the business of the house tomorrow is a continuation of the debate of the estimates of the Department of Citizenship and Immigration. After that, we will take up the estimates of the Department of Agriculture. I know that my hon. friend the house leader has usually given a forecast of the business of the house next week, although there have been some criticisms of that procedure. If the house would like me to indicate, as a forecast only but a probable forecast, what will happen next week, I will do so. On Monday we will continue with the budget resolutions of the Minister of Finance on which the house has spent some little time already and I assume that we shall be able to conclude this business some time during Monday. Then we will go on with the resolution on today's order paper dealing with the O.E.C.D. Then we shall take the pensions bill assuming it is reported back from the committee as I understand it will be. I believe that these three items will take up Monday and Tuesday. On Wednesday we will deal with the so-called disclosure bill or the financial statistics bill which I think is the better title for it. I refer to the bill which requires

certain disclosures from corporations and unions. Then if the Department of Agriculture is not concluded tomorrow-and it will be lamentable if it is not concluded-we will go on with the Department of Agriculture estimates on Thursday and conclude with the Department of Fisheries on Friday.


John Whitney Pickersgill: There is no intention of taking the Department of Labour next week?


George Clyde Nowlan: No.


[Stage Direction]
It being seven minutes past ten o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[The following items were passed in committee of supply]:

[Stage Direction]
Indian affairs branch-
55.	Administration, $792,099.
Indian agencies-
56.	Operation and maintenance, $4,406,145.
57.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $1,610,285.
Reserves and trusts-
58.	Operation and maintenance, $384,755.
Supply-Items Passed
Welfare of Indians-
59.	Operation and maintenance, including a grant to the province of Manitoba of one half of the cost of a program of community development not exceeding $50,000, $9,176,563.
60.	Construction	or	acquisition	of	buildings,
works, land and equipment, $2,010,000.
Economic development-
61.	Operation and maintenance, including an amount of $6,500 for grants to promote Indian agriculture, handicrafts and economic enterprises generally, $1,113,148.
62.	Construction	or	acquisition	of	buildings,
works, land and equipment, $511,407.
Education-
63.	Administration, operation and maintenance, $21,164,850.
64.	Construction	or	acquisition	of	buildings,
works, land and equipment including payments under agreements to provide joint educational facilities to Indian pupils, $7,705,000.
65.	Grant to provide additional services to the Indians of British Columbia, $100,000.
480. To authorize loans, in accordance with terms and conditions prescribed by the governor in council, to Indians in the current and subsequent fiscal years to assist them in acquiring housing, $100,000.

[Stage Direction]
253.	Administration, operation and maintenance including grants as detailed in the estimates, $975,116.
254.	Payment to the national gallery purchase account for the purpose of acquiring works of art in conformity with section 8 of the National Gallery Act, $200,000.
[Stage Direction]
Questions