1961-09-22

[Stage Direction]
Tenth report of standing committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines-Mr. Keays.

[Stage Direction]
Right Hon. J. G, Diefenbaker (Prime Minister): Mr. Speaker, I should like to table copies of correspondence exchanged between provincial premiers and myself on the subject of federal-provincial fiscal relations as requested by the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate on Friday, September 15.
Mr, Speaker:: Has the Prime Minister leave to table the documents?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Mr. Pickersgill:: Will the Prime Minister ask leave to have it printed as an appendix to Hansard?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, before the orders of the day are called, I am not sure that it was clearly understood, although I thought the Prime Minister assented to the proposition that the correspondence he tabled should be printed as an appendix to Hansard.


Mr. Diefenbaker:: I thought that was clear, Mr. Speaker. We follow that course regularly.


Mr. Speaker:: Is it agreed that the correspondence tabled this morning by the Prime Minister be printed as an appendix to today's Hansard?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
[Editor's note: For correspondence referred to above, see appendix.]



NATURAL RESOURCES


Hon. W. G. Dinsdale (Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to table copies in English and
French of the background papers for the resources for tomorrow's conference to be held in Montreal from October 23rd to the 28th. These papers have been prepared in two volumes by outstanding Canadian authorities in the field of renewable resources, that is, soil, water, forests, fisheries, wildlife and recreation, and will constitute the basis for discussion of these important subjects at the conference. They are also the first comprehensive renewable resource studies done in Canada and as such have outstanding general educational usefulness. Already one Canadian university has declared its intention to use the volumes as textbook material.
The volumes are available to members of the house through the checklist procedure and will be sold to the general public. They ensure that discussion at the conference will proceed on an organized basis. It is confidently expected that out of the resources for tomorrow conference will come much of the new thinking for intergovernmental cooperation required for the fullest development of our renewable natural resources and the sound advancement of Canada's dynamic and expanding national economy.


Mr. Speaker:: Has the minister leave to table the documents tendered?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.



CANADA GRAIN ACT


Mr. Reynold Rapp (Humboldt-Melfori-Tis-dale) moved: for leave to introduce Bill No. C-130, to amend the Canada Grain Act (rape-seed and mustard seed).


Some hon. Members:: Explain.


Reynold Rapp: Canada, Mr. Speaker, is best known in the commercial markets of the world for the high quality of its grain, particularly wheat. The purpose of this bill to amend the Canada Grain Act is to bring other grains such as rapeseed and mustard seed to the same high standard. Ninety to 95 per cent of all the rapeseed grown in this country is exported, and it is imperative that the quality of this grain be of the highest standard that we are able to achieve for it.
The amendment proposes to revise the present statutory grades for rapeseed to meet

Inquiries of the Ministry present-day trade requirements. This is in conformity with the suggestion of the board of grain commissioners for Canada to have the Canada Grain Act reclassified in accordance with attached schedules A and B. It also meets with the full approval of the Minister of Agriculture, under whose jurisdiction the Canadian wheat board and the board of grain commissioners for Canada come, and I am sure it will also meet with the approval of hon. members of the House of Commons. Schedules A and B are based on the recommendation of the chief grain inspector for the board of grain commissioners for Canada, and are in compliance with the export requirements, containing stipulations with regard to maximum percentage of foreign materials, degree of soundness and standard of cleanliness.
Clause 2 of the bill will change the definition of the grades of domestic mustard seed from the present commercial definition to a statutory definition. The committee on western grain standards established commercial grades for domestic mustard seed on November 4, 1953. These grades have now been revised to meet trade requirements, and the effect of this amendment is to raise these revised commercial grades to the precedence of statutory grades.
You will realize, Mr. Speaker, the importance of this amendment-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I am glad to assure the hon. member that I do realize the importance of his bill.


Hon. L. B. Pearson (Leader of the Opposition):: May I ask whether the government has considered taking over this important and useful measure and making it a government bill?
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



CUSTOMS TARIFF


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the right honourable doctor of sacred letters, the Prime Minister, and I congratulate him on receiving this distinction from the outstanding university in the country. May I ask him what action the government proposes to take during this session with relation to item No. 1 on the order paper, that is consideration of a message from the Senate insisting upon its amendment to Bill No. C-72, to amend the Customs Tariff.


John George Diefenbaker: First I want to thank the hon. gentleman, because I understand that he is also a holder of that degree. As I pointed out yesterday, I understand he is continuing his interest in that regard and that today he is going to start a missionary trip to western Canada and will endeavour to lead back the politically lost, in his view, in that part of the country.
In so far as the question itself is concerned, the house will be made fully aware of the circumstances before the conclusion of this session.



INQUIRY AS TO GOVERNMENT POLICY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. W. Herridge (Kootenay West):: May
I ask a question of the Prime Minister and doctor of sacred laws, and also congratulate him on receiving that degree. My question is based on a news story in the Globe and Mail of September 21, 1961, which I must say shocked my Anglican and socialist sense of propriety. The news item reads, in part:
Canada will use beer and dancing girls to spearhead a million dollar trade drive into two expanding West African commonwealth markets early next year.
Would the Prime Minister inform the house whether these beer and circus proposals for the expansion of Canadian trade represent government policy and are a true reflection of Canadian character and culture, or do they result from the colourful exuberance of the Minister of Trade and Commerce?


John George Diefenbaker: I feel sure the hon. gentleman did not intend to do more by his question than make the house aware of the fact that he has a continuing interest in high jinks, even if restricted to newspaper headlines.



TRANSPORT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. R. Tucker (Trinity-Conception):: May
I direct a question to the Minister of Transport or, in his absence, to the acting minister. Would the minister advise if he is in a position to say whether a decision has been reached to build a new ferry to operate from some port on Newfoundland's east coast, and if so when construction will begin?


Hon. Gordon Churchill (Minister of Veterans Affairs):: We will take that question as notice, Mr. Speaker.



REPORTED INCREASE IN NUMBER OF FORGED PRESCRIPTIONS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. D. R. Mitchell (Sudbury):: I have a question for the Minister of National Health and Welfare. Has the minister anything to add to a dispatch in this morning's Toronto newspaper regarding an increase in the number of forged prescriptions for schedule G drugs as the result of recent federal legislation?


Hon. J. W. Monteith (Minister of National Health and Welfare):: Mr. Speaker, I have not seen the article in the newspaper, but I will be glad to look at it and give the hon. member an answer on Monday.



NATIONAL AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. P. Deschatelets (Maisonneuve-Rose-mont):: I should like to address a question to the Prime Minister in connection with a press report to the effect that the national union party, at its rally in Quebec city, will adopt a resolution on the determination of separatism-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. Before the hon. member goes further I should like to remind him that no member of this administration takes responsibility for what is going on in the place mentioned.


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Mr. Speaker, will you permit me to ask my question and then you can judge if it is out of order? My question is this. In such a case, would the federal government submit the matter to the United Nations, as in the case of Katanga?



PUBLIC WORKS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. G. J. Mcllrailh (Oliawa West):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to address a question to the Minister of Public Works. It has to do with a public function at which he is officiating, namely the opening of the Old Chelsea section of the Gatineau parkway in Gatineau park by the national capital commission. On the same day and at the same time the mayor and council of the corporation of the city of Ottawa are holding a public function honouring the opening of the Britannia water purification plant and pumping station. My question to the minister is this. In view of the
Inquiries of the Ministry conflict of the dates and times of these two interesting public functions, will he approach the city with a view to trying to rearrange the hour of one of the functions so that it would be possible for the same persons to go to both?


Hon. D. J. Walker (Minister of Public Works):: Mr. Speaker, it is with trepidation that I ever suggest to the city of Ottawa, and particularly to Her Worship, that they make any change with regard to any function. She is quite an authority on all things social, and I understand Her Worship feels that such distinguished citizens and statesmen as the hon. member for Ottawa West will have ample opportunity to attend the water purification plant ceremony first and then to go out to the ceremony in the Gatineau hills afterwards.



COLUMBIA RIVER


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that Hon. W. A. C. Bennett has distributed copies of the speech he made to the associated boards of trade of central British Columbia at Prince George on September 16 with regard to the Columbia river treaty, I presume the Prime Minister has also received a copy. I was going to ask him whether he had any comment to make with respect to the caustic criticisms on the part of Premier Bennett of certain aspects of the Columbia river treaty.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I do not get much time these days to read fiction.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Speaker, may I just say a word with regard to the order of business for today. It is our intention to commence with the resolution stage of the legislation on physical fitness and amateur sports. I would advise hon. members that, if they would care to restrict their remarks today and pass that resolution rather quickly, we would then go on to the four items remaining in the estimates of the Department of National Health and Welfare, which would be followed by the estimates of the Department of National Revenue. All those who would like to speak on the subject of fitness and amateur sport, a subject which is of great interest to the house and to the

Advisory Council on Sports public, would have ample opportunity to do so on Monday, when the bill would come up for second reading.
The second thing I should like to say is this. It is the general wish of the house to sit tomorrow. That being the case, we would endeavour to deal with such estimates as are not finished today and then go on with those of privy council, legislation, veterans affairs and various supplementary estimates which must be dealt with.



ESTABLISHMENT OF ADVISORY COUNCIL ON FITNESS AND AMATEUR SPORT

Jay Waldo Monteith: that the house go into committee to consider the following resolution:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure respecting the encouragement of fitness and amateur sport in Canada; to provide for the making of grants to agencies, organizations or institutions; to provide for entering into an agreement with any province for the payment by Canada to the province of certain contributions in respect of the costs of programs relating to fitness and amateur sport; to provide for the establishment of a council to be called the national advisory council on fitness and amateur sport; to provide for the payment of the chairman's remuneration and of the travelling and other expenses of the members of the council; and to provide further that the Minister of Finance shall pay out of the consolidated revenue fund each fiscal year such amounts not exceeding in the aggregate five million dollars as may be required for the purposes set forth in the measure.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and the house went into committee, Mr. Chown in the chair.
Jay Waldo Monteith: Mr. Chairman, it gives me a great deal of pleasure to introduce this measure relating to fitness and amateur sport, the intent of which was announced by the Prime Minister recently in Toronto. Particularly at this time when our thoughts are so much taken up with the sombre threat to our way of life, and indeed to human existence itself, it is refreshing and heart warming to turn to a matter which is wholly dedicated to the greater benefit and enjoyment of the people of Canada.
As hon. members are aware, the resolution now before the committee had its immediate origin in the throne speech of last November. The thinking behind these proposals is not, however, of so recent origin; it dates back several years and, in fact, includes the efforts of a number of hon. members of this house. These and others have been outspoken champions of fitness and amateur sport and have repeatedly urged some form of assistance from the dominion government in support of such activities. While it has not been

possible to implement all their specific suggestions, I hope they will find in our new proposals the achievement of at least the spirit of their intentions.
It is, of course, no secret that the dominion government has previously made efforts in supporting a nation-wide program of physical fitness, and that these proved disappointing. But the fact that the program which was in force from 1943 to 1954 failed to meet expectations does not, to my mind, imply that the job cannot be done, that a new start should not be made. Indeed, as I will be pointing out later when the bill is before the house, circumstances have changed radically in the interval, and moreover, we are convinced that the present plans constitute a very substantial improvement over those previously in effect.
In outlining the background of this measure, mention should be made of the speech delivered by His Royal Highness the Duke of Edinburgh before the Canadian medical association on June 30, 1959. On that occasion, the committee will recall, His Royal Highness drew attention with great force to the extent of what he termed "sub-health" among Canadians. He said:
There is evidence that despite everything, people in Canada are not as fit as they might he-
Then he went on to say:
Some scheme, therefore, which exists to encourage participation in all sports and recreations, for all ages and sections of the community is absolutely essential to any modern community with a high standard of living.
Whether it was the words themselves, or their source, or a combination of both plus a particularly favourable climate of opinion, there can be no doubt that this address by the Duke of Edinburgh had a far reaching impact on Canadian thinking. Certainly an important contributing factor to the en-thusiam of the response on the part of Canadians was what His Royal Highness referred to as "the question of national prestige in sports and games." As he stated quite bluntly:
With a few notable exceptions, Canada's achievements in this line are hardly in keeping with a country which claims almost the highest standard of living in the world.
In any event, with this added stimulus the already growing interest in fitness and amateur sport, which as I have mentioned was highlighted by various members of this house, underwent a sharp upsurge throughout the country. Associations and organizations active in the field as well as the national sports governing bodies began to take on added drive and vitality.
The Canadian Medical Association, which had been the immediate recipient of the Duke

of Edinburgh's challenge, stepped up its consideration of the problem. This bore fruit early in 1961 in the conference on physical fitness sponsored by the Canadian Medical Association in collaboration with its fellow professional organization, the Canadian association for health, physical education and recreation.
The interest of governments also increased. At the provincial level a number of special committees on physical fitness were set up. The committee in Ontario was under the leadership of that distinguished champion of amateur sport, Mr. Harry Price. In the case of the dominion government a new look was taken at the problem with a view to developing an approach which might fit into the current context and which might hold out hope for the achievement of real progress. My department had, of course, continued to maintain consultant services in this field, and had as well set up a special committee to give certain aspects of the subject serious study.
I might point out, incidentally that our reappraisal of the situation has already produced results aside from these present proposals. I refer to the provision of financial assistance through the municipal winter works program for the construction of recreational facilities, as well as the federal grant to the Canadian Olympic Association to further its efforts in obtaining for Canada the 1968 winter Olympics.
In attempting to draw up a new approach to fitness and amateur sport for the long term, we have taken account of a number of basic factors. While the precise relationship between fitness and health remains far from clear, there seems to be no doubt that participation in amateur sport and recreational activities does have a beneficial effect on an individual's well being, particularly with respect to his emotional and social outlook. Besides affording pleasure, participation in competitive games teaches valuable lessons in the exercise of personal powers to the full, in the development of team spirit, and in learning to respect and make friends with one's opponents. The value of these qualities speaks for itself.
Furthermore, in a world which is being constantly reduced more and more to neighbourhood proportions, such qualities can have a vital bearing on the achievement of understanding and friendship among nations and peoples. Indeed, this is where I see the greatest contribution of international competitions. Although we all experience a keen sense of pride and exhilaration when Canadians come out on top in such competitions, I would agree with those who maintain that
Advisory Council on Sports this should not be the overriding consideration. Rather I would go along with the view of Pierre de Coubertin who had much to do with making the Olympic games what they are today. He said:
The important thing is not winning but taking part. The essential thing in life is not conquering but fighting well.
That is the point I believe we should keep before us. Our aim should be primarily to provide the proper environment and training for the youth of Canada so they may in fact be good competitors. If this is done, then we can have every expectation that in due course Canada will have all the champions we could reasonably hope for.
But providing this proper environment and training is not a simple matter these days. Many trends in our society are against it. For example, there is the continuing movement of our people from the more vigorous life of rural areas to large, crowded cities, which too often do not furnish recreational and sports opportunities required by an urban population. Then too the effects of automation have drastically reduced manual labour, and have opened the way for an increasingly sedentary way of life for many Canadians.
These are some of the fundamental factors which we have borne in mind in developing the program which is the subject of the resolution now before the committee. Detailed comments on our new proposals will, of course, have to await presentation of the bill, but there are some general observations which I might make at this stage. As is obvious from the wording of the resolution, the scope of the projected program is broad and comprehensive. The program envisages very generous financial support on the part of the dominion government. Indeed, in setting aside an annual amount of $5 million we are providing greater assistance for fitness and amateur sport than has ever been available in Canada from a single public source.
Moreover, the program does not represent a stereotyped or rigid approach, but provides a framework through which federal aid may be channelled into those areas where it is needed. These include:
1.	The provision of greater assistance to Canadian teams participating in sports meets both at home and abroad.
2.	Support for the expansion of facilities and services for the training of coaches and instructors.
3.	Provision of bursaries and fellowships to improve the competence of personnel connected with fitness and sport.
4.	Support for research and for a greater effort in the field of information.
5.	Granting of fitting recognition for outstanding achievement.

Advisory Council on Sports
As the resolution indicates, federal money will be available for the purposes of the program to agencies, organizations and institutions concerned with fitness and amateur sport. In addition, the proposed measure provides for the development of federal-provincial agreements through which a mutually acceptable arrangement can be worked out for federal assistance designed to strengthen and extend provincial programs in these fields.
In all its many aspects the new plan will benefit from the experience and guidance of a national advisory council which is to be set up under the terms of the legislation. This council will include not more than 30 members representing the provinces and the various agencies concerned with these subjects.
In this connection I should like to emphasize that we do not regard this new program as in any sense a purely federal venture. In the Prime Minister's words, we look on it as a people's program, with all that implies. In other words, not only will its full implementation rest at the grass roots level, but in its development we will welcome the advice and suggestions of all who have an interest in furthering the fitness of the people of Canada, in bringing to our sports activities the qualities that will not only produce champions but will also provide opportunities for as many Canadians as possible to enjoy and benefit from healthy participation in sport and recreational activity.
In referring to this new measure in Toronto recently the Prime Minister formally invited the assistance of any and all Canadians interested in these matters. I am happy to say the response has exceeded all expectations, and I should like to take this opportunity to thank those who have sent us their views. I can assure them that their comments are being given careful study.
In presenting this resolution to the committee today, I should like to follow the Prime Minister's example and say that the government would welcome any suggestions concerning the proposed program which hon. members may wish to put forward. We are very anxious that this be in the fullest sense a bipartisan effort, and to this end I can assure hon. members that their suggestions will be accorded the most serious consideration by the government.
While I would not wish to dampen in any way the enthusiasm aroused by the announcement of this new undertaking, I feel I should issue a word of caution. Although I believe the program to be an excellent one, I do not think we should expect it to achieve miracles overnight. Significant gains will be registered only after a sustained effort, and much remains to be done before such an effort can

be mounted successfully. Progress at first may seem slow, especially if we concentrate on building carefully rather than spectacularly, but we have tremendously improved resources to work with compared to the past.
Given time and patience, I hope we will see great things develop in this field. I hope we will see mounting numbers of our young people engaging in track and field sports, in baseball, hockey, and tennis, to name only a few. I hope we will see adequate facilities for all kinds of sport spring up throughout the length and breadth of Canada. And finally, I hope we will see more and more Canadian athletes achieve that degree of excellence which will make them the equal of the best the world can offer today and in the years ahead.
These are my expectations, Mr. Chairman, as we embark upon an undertaking which I am confident will make a unique contribution to our national development and well-being.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Chairman, hon. members who heard me speak a couple of years ago on a private member's resolution having to do with this matter will not be surprised when I say that we on this side will support the resolution before the committee. When it is embodied in a bill, Mr. Chairman, we will be glad to accept the minister's invitation to contribute some constructive suggestions which perhaps will improve the bill.
As the minister said, the matter is noncontroversial and I think can be approached in a bipartisan way. It is also, as he pointed out, a resolution which deals with a more cheerful matter than most of those which we have been considering since the house resumed its session.
I must say, Mr. Chairman, that in its original form the resolution was one to which we would have taken exception, but that particular difficulty has been removed by the amendment which was made so that it now reads:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure respecting the encouragement of fitness-
-not through amateur sport, as the first draft of the resolution had it, but the encouragement of fitness and amateur sport in Canada, this is a much better and a much broader way of approaching the problem, as the minister himself pointed out the other day.
Normally there can be a difference between physical fitness and amateur sport. While it may be desirable, and I think it is, for government to accept in this day and age, both on the federal and the provincial levels, some

responsibility in this matter, that responsibility may well be different in its application to physical fitness than to amateur sport.
The resolution itself makes clear that the obligation which the government asks the house to accept in this regard is to be discharged by grants and also-and this is of course very wise-through co-operation with the provinces. Not only must there be, or should there be, co-operation with the provinces, but there must also be, as I think the minister pointed out, the closest kind of cooperation with voluntary bodies concerned with fitness and amateur sport. For this purpose the resolution proposes the establishment of a national advisory council on physical fitness and amateur sport with a paid chairman.
There will be, and there have already been, those in the country who are worried about the entry of the federal government into this field. I have before me an editorial from the Montreal Star of August 29 which gives expression to that worry, arising out of the possibility of government assistance in this field somehow prejudicing the assistance that government should give and has been giving to activities of a non-material kind in other fields. I see no reason why one should in any way interfere with the other, because I think they are both essential.
The editorial which I have just mentioned, expressing this anxiety-and it is an anxiety we ought to keep in mind-has this paragraph:
But even through the vociferous cheering-
The government's announcement has been received with a certain amount of cheering.
-we can hear the subdued voice of the Canadian taxpayer murmuring that he can think of much better ways of spending the money. If anybody put it to him in these terms he would say he would rather see the money go to training minds than bodies.


Mr. Benidickson:: Let's do both.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Nobody in this chamber will underestimate at this time the importance of the maximum effort being made by all governments in the training of minds, but surely there is no contradiction between doing perhaps even more than we are doing now for the training of minds, and this initiative to assist in the development of fit bodies through amateur sport and facilities for physical fitness is a step in the right direction. Therefore I do not myself accept any contradiction between these two objectives, although I think there is a danger. If government is not careful it might do more for one than the other, and therefore the balance will have to be preserved. In that balance, of course, I think we would all agree that the training of minds is even more important than the training of bodies.
Advisory Council on Sports
This resolution and the action which will be taken, we hope, through the bill which will be based on it, deal with amateur sport as well as physical fitness. Perhaps we should ask ourselves how government can properly and constructively assist in this field of amateur sport. We might even ask ourselves a question which is not too easy to answer these days. What is amateur sport? The definition of amateur sport in certain instances, and only in certain instances, is such as to take a good deal of the content and meaning out of the word "amateur", and I am sure no one in this house or in the government would wish to direct the kind of assistance for amateur sport which is visualized in this action in a way which would help certain sports bodies train and develop athletes for professional activities when they graduate from some of those amateur bodies.
Then of course amateur sport itself-and I think mention was made of this-has two aspects. There is the domestic aspect and the international aspect. It is perfectly true that the achievements of a nation in amateur athletics, amateur sport, in its domestic aspect leads to achievement in the international side of amateur sport which does do something for a nation's morale, its confidence and its prestige. It may be unfortunate, but it is true that the prestige of a country can be affected by failure in this field, though it should not be nearly as important as failure in other fields. However, in the light of present conditions- all the publicity attached to international sport and the fact that certain societies, particularly the communist societies, use international sport, as they use everything else, for the advancement of prestige and political purposes, it is a matter of some consequence that we in Canada should do what we can to develop and regain the prestige we once had, to a greater extent than we now have in international competition.
The minister mentioned Baron de Coubertin, the founder of the Olympic games and his emphasis, which at least in theory has been the emphasis of the Olympic games ever since, that it is not the achievement but the participation which matters. It is very difficult to maintain that ideal in the face of international competition of the type we have today, even at the Olympic games. Therefore I would hope that an important by-product of assistance, and I think it would only be a by-product, would be to recover in this country most of the prestige that we once had in the field of international athletic competitions.
There was a time not very many years ago when our population was less than half what it is now, when governments did not
8720	HOUSE OF
Advisory Council on Sports assist international athletic competition, when we did not have the facilities that we have now, let alone the people, when we loomed very large in international competition, especially at the Olympic games. I think I have mentioned before in the house that in 1924 or 1926, I am not sure which, Canada, with not as large a team as she has been able to send to recent Olympic games, managed to win the 100 yards and the 220 yards, and would have won the 440 yards if Jim Ball from Winnipeg had not looked back in the last 10 yards. There is a lesson in that for all of us, not only in athletic competition.
I should hope that the action we are being asked to take now, would do something to encourage the zest for international competition by Canadians, because that is a legitimate and laudable objective, and I think government support of this sort of thing is also legitimate. However, as I said a few minutes ago, the plan has to be very carefully administered indeed; otherwise we may find that our support is going in directions which will not help to achieve the objectives we have in mind. The support can be direct, but I suspect it will be found to be most useful when it is indirect, through helping to finance and develop training facilities and all that kind of thing. Indeed, this is mentioned in the resolution itself.
But government support, however great- I am talking not only about athletics, not only about sport but also about fitness, which is related-will not alone draw young people away from television sets and into games, competition and fitness. There must be in young people that zest for competition, that zest for achievement in games, that desire to go out and take part which I think used to be more noticeable in Canada, when I was young than it is now. We did not have so many distractions at that time, and we were perhaps more concerned with this kind of activity and the good effect it used to have on our fitness and on national morale in those days. All Canadians in those early days got a thrill out of the achievements of our athletes at the Olympic games. I am going back a long way before world war I, when it was taken for granted that if a Canadian did not win the marathon race at the Olympic games he would be among the first two or three, and we had some of the greatest runners of all time in those days.
Perhaps the contrast between that day and now is to be seen in the fact that there is less interest in amateur competition, less interest in games for the sake of playing games, and greater interest in professional competition and in watching professional competition, something about which I should not be


very critical because I spend a good deal of time doing it myself. I think there is also a good illustration in the contrast between our sort of North American approach to these matters and that part of the European approach with which I am familiar. At Oxford University in England-and it is still the same as it was 100 years ago-every day after lunch every student takes part in some form of athletic activity, and if he does not he is considered to be very queer indeed.


Mr. Martin (Essex East):: Oxford is not the
only place where that is done.


Lester Bowles Pearson: It is not quite as easy to do that over here, and there is not quite the same incentive. I do not know what is responsible for this change. Perhaps it is a change in our way of life, a change in the habits and customs of the people. I hope that government intervention of this kind may do something to restore what I like to think was an earlier, healthier condition both in games and in fitness. There is no profit in trying to blame anybody or anything. "The fault, dear Brutus, perhaps does not lie in our stars", though the cult of the star may have had something to do with it; and it certainly does not lie in our governments. Rather it lies in ourselves and the situation can be changed if the people wish to change it.
Australia is a good example of what can be done to develop fitness, zest and participation in games without too much government support. There is government support, but that support is not nearly as important as the cooperation that Australian athletes and youth get from voluntary bodies. The same is true in France. There is a good deal of government support in France, and this has a bearing on the danger I mentioned a few moments ago, the danger of perhaps overbalancing support for fitness against support for things of the mind. In France there is more government assistance for the arts, letters and sciences, I suppose, than in any other country in the world-I speak without knowledge of all the facts- and that goes alongside assistance for physical fitness, so the two things are not incompatible.
There is a danger in the government entering this field which I have only touched on so far, the danger that now that the government has taken this responsibility and accepted this obligation there may be a tendency to leave too much to the federal government in what we are now beginning to do. There is also a danger in the administration of a fund of this kind, and we are all aware of that. Who will be helped and how will they be helped? One of the competitions which will develop shortly and for which there will

be a great deal of zest will be the competition to share in this appropriation on the part of all those who think quite rightly that they deserve and need help. Therefore the administration of this fund is going to be very important indeed, and the whole thing can be spoiled by the wrong kind of administration.
I do not need to mention to the minister that it is absolutely essential that there should be completely non-political control over the administration of this fund, as all members will agree, I think, there is in the administration of the funds of the Canada council. The dangers that might arise if this did not happen have been referred to by a good many sports editors who have written some very perceptive articles on the subject matter of this resolution. Jack Kinsella, in the Ottawa Citizen of August 28, 1961, had this to say, and he is in favour of this legislation as I think all sports editors are:
The only thing I don't like about the plan is the inference that it will be politically controlled. Like oil and water, sport and politics don't mix too well.
I have not myself drawn any such inference from the resolution, and I hope none will be required to be drawn. One reason, of course, why the Canada council has this relative independence from political interference is that the council itself is financially independent, in the sense that it derives its income from an endowment. This council, as I understand it, will get its income by means of an annual vote and this, in the nature of things, may result in the loss of such independence as an agency like the Canada council has.
Incidentally, in reference to this question of balance between help for the arts and letters and help for sports and fitness, it is perhaps just as well to remind ourselves that while the amount in this resolution is $5 million a year, that is about twice the income the Canada council gets for all it is trying to do in the field of the arts, letters and sciences. Perhaps the time will come, perhaps it has already come, when the Canada council will make us aware of the fact that this balance will have to be redressed and the council will have to be given more help. The council has already, I believe, made representations in that regard, yet $5 million may soon be considered not enough for all the work that this council may wish to do.
There is an article in the Montreal Star of August 30, 1961 by Baz O'Meara in which he says:
It isn't enough, it should be $25 million.
Of course, Mr. Chairman, it will never be enough.
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Then I hope the assistance which is given through this action will be given not to those- I am talking now about the amateur sports side of it-sports which are self sustaining because they are spectator sports. We do not want to help hockey clubs produce professional hockey players or junior football clubs produce professional football players or baseball clubs produce professional baseball players. We do want to help, I think, through the creation of facilities, those sports which will never be self sustaining in the sense that they will be able to meet their expenses. I am thinking of those sports which are extremely important from the physical fitness point of view. I am thinking of aquatic sports and of Ted Reeves' passionate desire to bring lacrosse back to its old place as Canada's national game.
There is one other consideration which I might mention to the committee, and that is the danger which always attaches to this kind of government assistance and actions which are not directly within the field of government activity. I refer to the fact that once this activity becomes dependent to a great extent on government support, then it becomes more difficult to get voluntary assistance for it. The net result would not be good; it would be bad, if these public spirited citizens and organizations in the country who are now interested in amateur sport and fitness felt that now the government had taken over they would not have to do so much; they would not have to produce the funds. I hope it will be made clear that this kind of assistance is a supplement to what people can do for themselves.
This is the danger-perhaps "danger" is too strong a word-as it is apparent in connection with the work of the Canada council. There is a tendency to say the Canada council has this endowment so corporations and wealthy individuals feel they no longer need to contribute. It was the intention of the government in setting up the council to use government support as the foundation on which private enterprise could build its support. However, the temptation is to say, let the government do it; it has taken on this job. I hope this will not happen in connection with this resolution.
Perhaps before I conclude, Mr. Chairman, I might pay my own tribute to those organizations in the country which without very much encouragement in the past have done what they could in this field. I know some of them have become discouraged, but they have worked very hard to improve the physical fitness of our people. I am thinking of Lloyd Percival's sports college, and I am thinking of the central fitness council run by Mr. Harcourt Roy, out in Vancouver, and

Advisory Council on Sports the difficult, rather discouraging work he tried to do to develop physical fitness. I believe he has given up this work and returned to England. There have been people in this country who, in these relatively dark days compared with the brighter days of 25 or 30 years ago in the field of amateur athletics and fitness, have been trying to improve the fitness of the people of this country. This is important work, and the ideal they have in mind is an important ideal; to build up the fitness of our people, not only through amateur athletics but through more direct methods such as those which have been put forward by these two men to whom I have referred.
When the bill is before the house, Mr. Chairman, there will be, as I have said, an opportunity to deal with this matter in detail. However, I am afraid I shall not be able to do so because, as the Prime Minister mentioned, I am going off on a missionary tour shortly in response to the cries of those people who are hungry for the pure gospel. I can only say at this time that we will support the bill and the resolution on which it is based, and we hope that this action by the government will achieve the objective which the government has in mind, of improving the fitness of our people at a time when fitness of the body is only second in importance to fitness of the mind. We hope they will be able to encourage amateur sports generally as a step in the direction of the improvement in physical fitness.


Mr. Pitman:: It is certainly the wish of our party to congratulate the government upon the introduction of this resolution, and especially to congratulate the minister for the very gracious way in which he performed that introduction. This matter is of great interest to all members of this house, as was indicated by the debate on a private member's resolution some months ago. Certainly the interest shown by the hon. member for Kootenay West, who unfortunately had to leave the chamber before he could make his remarks, and by the hon. member for Port Arthur indicates the feeling of our members.
No one questions the purpose of this resolution, nor do we question the need for the bill which will follow, we have no way in which we can obtain accurate statistics as to the level of physical fitness throughout this nation. Over the years we have been receiving some indication from those who are engaged in physical education in the various provinces of Canada that our level is falling behind that which has been achieved in other parts of the world.
A resolution of this nature perhaps raises as many questions as it answers. How do we encourage physical fitness and amateur sports?

How do we encourage physical fitness through amateur sports? It is not the same as subsidizing agriculture or gold mining, because the success of such a program depends on the realization of the material benefits that will be received through the acceptance of the subsidy. Surely the success of this measure is dependent upon the enthusiasm and initiative of the young people or people of all ages who are going to be encouraged to take part in amateur sports, who are going to be encouraged to improve their level of physical fitness.
I am sure each one of us from the various constituencies in Canada has passed playing fields on Saturday afternoon which were completely empty. All of us have heard of schools where they could not find enough boys to play on the football team even though the equipment was there and there was plenty of money available. This is a crucial question; how can a government encourage enthusiasm for physical fitness through legislation?
Another question that arises is this. What group are we mainly concerned with? Are we mainly concerned with young people, or are we really going to try to encourage physical fitness in other age groups? The Leader of the Opposition raised the whole question of what is amateur sport. Can we subsidize amateur sport without the realization that possibly this legislation will be used by professional entrepreneurs for their own benefit as well? The fact is that many sports start out as amateur but end up very much as professional enterprises. Of course the question that arises is this: What sport produces physical fitness to the highest degree and most efficiently? I am sure the minister and his department have dealt with these questions as they bring this resolution to the floor of the House of Commons. Certainly I hope they have done so.
One body which I think has done a great deal in this area is the Central Council of Physical Education in Great Britain, which since 1936 has been trying to deal with the very problem which the minister has brought before us this morning. I should like to read one or two sentences from the 19th annual report of this body:
Our declared aim is: "to promote and improve the physical and mental health of the community through the development of physical recreation". In other words, people are our primary concern, physical recreation-games and sports of all kinds, outdoor activity such as climbing and camping, recreative physical training, dancing and so on- a means to the end.
In other words, let us not regard sports in too narrow a field. The minister mentioned track and field, hockey and football, but let us not simply consider sport as it is

portrayed on the sporting pages of our national newspapers. The results of sports on physical recreation can perhaps be met in many other areas which receive very faint recognition by many sports minded people. Then the report goes on to say this:
The forty or so activities with which we are concerned offer fresh air and exercise to sedentary workers; encourage youngsters to develop their potentialities, to seek adventure and to learn to work and live with others; introduce people of all ages to skills which may give them lifelong pleasure; foster the fuller use and appreciation of the countryside; proffer companionship to the lonely; and guide into constructive channels the energies of those who seek self expression through movement.
Here I think is a very important reflection which the author puts in this last sentence:
But few will voluntarily take part in a physical activity simply because it may "do them good". It must capture their interest, arouse their enthusiasm, make demands on their physical and mental resources-only then will it be really satisfying, really educational.
I would commend those words to the minister and his department because I think this is the crucial point. How do we arouse enthusiasm? How do we arouse initiative?
My greatest fear in connection with this resolution is that we may lose sight of the aim expressed in it. I am sure the Prime Minister did not mean to give this impression, and perhaps I am wrenching this statement out of its context, but when he announced this bill in Toronto he said:
Success in competitive sports ... has become an important element in the contest for the hearts of men. Success in Olympic games and in all fields of international competitive sports has a tremendous effect upon the prestige of nations.
I hope this consideration will not deflect our minds from the main purpose. Reading from an editorial which appeared in an Ontario newspaper, the Peterborough Examiner on August 29, we find concern expressed on the part of this writer who states in one sentence as follows:
If the national advisory council is going to have a brief with overtones of the cold war, we might as well forget about encouragement and take up the Soviet system of compulsory exercises in the factory every day at 11 a.m.
We are certainly interested in the Olympic competitions. However, I think the British council has a point when it says this:
British supremacy in international sport is not the objective of the central council of physical recreation. Yet, the better the council does its work of encouraging everyone, the more probable it is that the country will produce sportsmen of Olympic calibre. Only by broadening the base of the pyramid of participation can its height be increased.
The government in this resolution has chosen three methods by means of which these purposes can be achieved. The first is by 90205-6-550J
Advisory Council on Sports making grants to agencies, organizations or institutions. Of course we hope to see by the bill just exactly what this will mean. However, at this particular moment the matter is all very vague and one is filled with doubts. On what basis is the government going to decide just what are the aims of an organization? Is it really concerned with physical fitness, or does it have other social aims which may entirely undermine the efforts of this agency in carrying out the purpose of this resolution? Before the great rush begins for part of this $5 million, surely a criterion must be established for evaluating the basis on which contributions will be made to these various agencies in order to ensure that the agencies know what amateur sport really is and what its purposes really are.
One person has called it a "slush fund for sport". None of us in this chamber wish to see this take place. However, the national government must take some responsibility for defining with excessive care the kind of sports and activities which will fulfil the aims, the kind of agency which is sincerely motivated to provide physical fitness recreation, which does not have other interest involved and which is concerned also with mass participation.
The second method suggested in this resolution is to provide for entering into an agreement with any province for the payment by Canada to the province of certain contributions in respect of the costs of programs relating to fitness and amateur sport. As we discuss this resolution I am sure we are sobered by the fact that we have already had a physical fitness act. I note that the hon. member for Essex East has just left the chamber. However, before this resolution stage has been completed I hope the hon. member for Essex East, as the former minister of national health and welfare, will give us the benefit of some of his experiences in this field.
Why did that act fail? I spent some time in reading over the minutes of the council from 1943 to 1952 to see whether I could discover why that act had failed to arouse the imagination of the provinces. In 1946 this physical fitness legislation, which was put through by the former administration, was given a citation by the American academy of physical education as pioneering legislation in the interests of human development. Yet by 1953 it had failed. Province after province had not passed physical fitness acts, which I think it had been hoped would be passed. You find rather a sort of ad hoc arrangement by means of which the provinces were attempting to carry out their responsibilities through health and welfare departments, public education departments and so on.

Advisory Council on Sports I was much impressed by the great variety of activities carried on under that physical fitness act in attempting to raise the standard of physical fitness, in attempting to find a role for sports in all parts of Canada, and in attempting to encourage youth through the setting up of physical education departments in our universities. But while I was deeply impressed by what was done, none the less the act failed and it has been wiped off our statute books. In many cases the provinces failed to take up the grants that were available. I note that British Columbia and Saskatchewan seem to have had the most interest in accepting the grants. But certainly as you read through the minutes you could not help but feel that there were major problems. I hope those problems have been looked into by this government, and that they have been dealt with. I noted with some hope a remark by the minister, when he stated that some of the difficulties and concerns in 1961 are different from those of the '40's and '50's. This gives us reason to believe that new initiative in this field will have some effect. I certainly receive the impression that there was a disconcerting lack of trained personnel back in the 1940's and 1950's. With the increase in the physical education branches of our universities, and certainly the far more ambitious program of assistance, we hope that some of these problems are going to be dealt with. We come to this problem with some feeling of frustration, what we call our frustration of federalism. I am not speaking in a partisan way in this connection, but so often I think we give money to the provinces and in order to accept this money they have to share part of the cost. As a result this of course immediately dampens some of their enthusiasm.
Even more important, so often they have to provide the initiative, they have to provide the administration and they really have to provide the pattern by which this legislation that is going to provide physical fitness at the lower levels will be realized. So often there is insufficient direction and planning from the federal government to give this initiative to the provincial governments.
I must say that in many cases I feel this almost circumvents our democratic system. For example, last night we talked about vocational training for unemployed. We find that in spite of the fact that the dominion government has been most generous, this program has not been accepted in the dynamic way in which the federal government itself hoped it would be accepted. The provinces have not gone all out to train unemployed people. This is the problem. When it comes to debating it in this house, of course the government rightly says it is the fault of

the provinces because they have not gone all out in the program. When it is debated in the provinces the provincial governments say it is a federal plan, the federal government has provided 75 per cent of the funds and it is really not their responsibility. I think this is a negation of our whole system of democratic governmental responsibility.
I think the people of Canada tend to become disconcerted by this approach. There is nowhere you can say somebody is at fault or somebody should take the praise for the measure. I hope this will not be the effect of this particular piece of legislation. I hope there will be definite direction and plans from above, and that there will be a real effort to make sure that this legislation is carried out in a dynamic way.
One of the problems that I am sure the provinces are going to face in carrying out this measure is the lack of facilities. It is too bad that last winter we could not have been building recreation centres across Canada into which this program could have fitted. We could have provided the horse before we provided the cart. It is too bad, because I think this is a major problem. The minister mentioned track and field facilities as a major area of our concern. In my constituency there is not an indoor track within 80 miles. How can we, in a climate like ours, produce athletes of Olympic calibre and sports enthusiasts under these conditions? There is not a decent outdoor track for 40 miles, and we virtually have to go down and kick the ponies off the racetrack and try to run the boys and girls in what can only be described as mud in many cases. A country the size of Canada should be providing these facilities at this stage.
We hear this all across Canada from other track and field groups, universities and high schools. Until we provide facilities we cannot produce the results. Is it not too bad that the Minister of Public Works did not announce a bill extending N.H.A. financing to municipalities in order to provide recreation centres, instead of paying out so much money in unemployment insurance. This could be done either through the winter works program or N.H.A. financing, as we have done in providing residences to universities, sewage projects, and so on.
We must show that the national government is serious about this whole matter of physical fitness. We know there is a problem regarding swimming. I think there are only three or four Olympic size swimming pools across this nation. I think this is a serious problem. We are not concerned, I am sure, about simply producing Olympic champions. I am sure when we realize that the U.S.S.R. produced a championship gymnastic team, it

is not the fact that seven of their people won Olympic gold medals which concerns us, but that the Olympic team was chosen from several thousands gymnasts across the U.S.S.R. I am sure this is the kind of thing this legislation is designed to do, and we sincerely hope it will achieve these results. But it must be done with considerable purpose, planning and direction if it is going to provide the kind of results which all of us in this chamber, of every party, are hoping will be achieved.
The second theme, apart from the question of facilities, is the problem of leadership. We still do not have enough people to lead a program of this kind. The central council of physical recreation of Great Britain, which I have just mentioned, set up three national physical recreation centres. Is this not what we need? Perhaps we need national emphasis to provide leadership. That council in Great Britain spent only one fifth the amount we are proposing to spend in one year, and they trained 12,000 people in these recreational centres in every sport imaginable. I think we have to provide leadership, perhaps national physical recreational clinics, to give direction throughout the whole of Canada if this physical fitness program is going to have any effect. It so often happens that plans are arrived at by the national advisory council at the top but they do not come down to the bottom, to the level at which the actual physical fitness takes place. Unless people at the bottom are completely cognizant of those plans at the top and how they are to be carried out, how can a scheme such as this work properly? I think this is a major problem which the former legislation failed to solve.
The Leader of the Opposition mentioned the whole question of financing. We are impressed with the amount of money this government has decided to put into this effort. Perhaps, indeed, it will encourage this government to give more money to the areas of education, the arts and the Canada council. In Britain, for example, 50 per cent of the money is provided by private donations. We want to encourage the people of Canada in this regard, because perhaps this is the answer. The Leader of the Opposition said we do not want voluntary agencies to give up and not contribute anything now and let the national government do it all. Is there not a possibility that private donations to this scheme might have some validity and might be a way of centering the interest of the Canadian people upon this scheme?
Of course the third major aspect of this resolution is the creation of the national advisory council. This is the body which must give the direction at the top. As I see it,
Advisory Council on Sports under the last physical fitness act the problem was that the men at the top knew what they were doing and were making a very worthy effort, but the plans at the top never reached the bottom. I believe this was the major failure of the effort we have already made. I think this is what we must learn from that effort if this program is going to be successful.
The men to be appointed to this council will be a matter of some concern. This will be as large a problem for the minister as deciding which agencies are going to receive the grants. This will be a very difficult problem for the minister and I hope he has already been at work dealing with it. For example, on the council in Great Britain they have men such as Noel Baker, the Nobel prize winner, Right Hon. Vincent Hampden and Brigadier Sir John Hunt. These men are interested in the arts and sciences as well as simply in physical recreation; they are men with wide interests. I think these are the kind of men we want on this council, men who are distinguished in their experience and interests but also who do not see amateur sport simply as poor competition.
I am sure the progress of this bill will be viewed with great interest not only in this house but in the country. I know all of us are hoping that this bill will be worthy of the interest and concern of this chamber, and certainly it will receive the full support of this New Democratic party in this house.


Mr. Weichel:: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the opportunity of speaking on the sports program brought forward by our government to encourage our youth in amateur athletics, and of presenting my personal observations and suggestions in this regard. In my maiden speech in the House of Commons, on January 20, 1959 I was privileged to be the first to mention and support amateur sports and the advisability of the government lending financial assistance in this field. At that time I said:
It is my opinion that it is now time for our government to take a . iok at things. A ministry of sports and athletic uevelopment might be the answer. With government assistance we might be able to reach the day when we could send national teams abroad without forcing their leaders to go begging for funds to make the trip.
Millions of dollars are spent each year on cultural development in this country. I am in total accord with this as any fair minded sportsman would be. I also feel, however, we should spend a similar amount on the physical and athletic development of our young Canadians. Let the government look at the by-product of sports events.
There is the good will the competition fosters for Canada; the easing of international tension through international sports; the raising of the prestige of the country through participation, and the example the sportsmen on these teams set for our youth. So far Canada has not achieved
8726	HOUSE OF
Advisory Council on Sports the place in international competition which the potential we have warrants. However, with proper assistance that goal is attainable.
There were few things in the government's throne speech earlier this session that brought more loud cheers from Canadians, and especially our youth, than the government's announced intention to give financial assistance to the furthering of amateur sport. The position in which I now find myself makes me very happy. For years I, along with many other sports minded Canadians, have been talking up sport, aiding it in every way I can so that young Canadians can develop healthy bodies and healthy minds. I am now in a position to offer suggestions as to how government aid to a national sports program might be administered.
Although we as Canadians become quite smug about our material attainments, our high standard of living, we trail far behind other countries in the provision of facilities for our sportsmen. Russia, of course, is an example which first comes to mind of a country that is leaps and bounds ahead of us. Through a concentrated government crash program, that country has been dotted with sports palaces, swimming pools and local gymnastic training programs. You might say they are as far ahead of us in their programs as their runners were in the summer Olympics at Rome and as their hockey players were in the winter games at Cortina. The results of government assistance like that provided in Russia have been evident in recent Olympic games, just as our lack of a program here has been evident in our dismal showings.
The ideas that I would like now to present are a combination of my own thoughts, and suggestions from other sportsmen across the country that have flowed into me since the announcement that the government would undertake this program of aid to amateur sports. Because we seem so far behind other countries in this matter our problems are manifold, and for that reason they must be approached step by step. I suggest that our three realms of activity could be:
1.	The provision of sports facilities, adequate playing fields, stadia, swimming pools, gymnasiums, tennis courts, and other training and competitive areas. These facilities would mean physical fitness for our youth.
2.	The provision of competent coaches, invaluable to our youth.
3.	Direct financial aid to national teams representing Canada in international events.
To remedy Canada's lack of sports facilities, I suggest that the government consider a plan providing a certain amount of money per year for, say, 20 years. Grants would be


made available to communities which agree to build stadia, playing fields, pools, etc., which conform to recognized international standards, and to any others which Canada may see fit to impose. Because we are far behind, these grants should be substantial so that, say, perhaps 20 communities across the land could get modern facilities each year. These naturally should be strategically located throughout Canada to give the best possible service at the start. The gaps in location could be filled in in future years. This money should not go to communities without there being some evidence of civic support and interest. The government might provide 50 per cent of the cost of any approved scheme; the rest could be raised by the community concerned.
Turning to the question of government aid in the provision of competent coaches for our young sportsmen in every field, it is my suggestion that the government make annual grants to existing amateur sports groups which can come up with a coaching plan and approved coaches who should be, I would think, internationally known figures such as Rocket Richard and Gordie Howe in hockey, Gus Ryder and Cliff Lumsden in swimming, Mr. Reid of Vancouver in rowing, and Wally Brown in track and field, etc. We will have to pay for the best, but if we do it will undoubtedly pay off in a more fit Canada, a healthier youth who will build a healthier nation. The results have been evident in our sister country of the commonwealth, Australia, where a concentrated sports program has produced the world's greatest runners and swimmers.
On the other hand, the government may decide that full time coaches would be desirable. These could be employed by the federal government that will operate the nation's sports program, and made available to clubs across the country on demand. When not out on the hustings in this capacity, these coaches might be planning Canada's future progress in their particular lines, developing visual aids with special films, delivering talks and writing manuals on sport.
Let us now turn to the matter of competition expenses of our sportsmen who will develop this far reaching program. It is my belief and that of millions of sports loving Canadians that all national teams going to international events such as the Olympics, the Pan-American and commonwealth games, world hockey tournaments, Davis cup tennis championships, etc., should have their basic expenses paid by the national treasury. Their costs of uniforms, equipment; hotel and travelling expenses and other incidentals should also be met. I do not believe, however, that

there should be a scheme providing for personal reimbursement for time lost from employment. If some private contributors wished to help defray the loss of money by any individual, that would be another matter. It is my firm belief that all our national sports representatives should be removed from the embarrassing position of having to go, cap in hand, begging for bare necessities when other nations fully back up their sporstmen through the treasury.
I am very close to this problem, coming from the Waterloo North constituency which I call home. Its major municipalities, the twin communities of Kitchener-Waterloo, through their former hockey team, the Dutchmen, represented Canada in two Olympic hockey tournaments. In order to make these two trips the people of Kitchener-Waterloo and the district, along with some sports minded friends, had to raise over $40,000 for expenses. Financial worries for those taking part are a big hindrance in their desire to win. This was clearly demonstrated in the case of the Dutchmen, who had to make a special effort the last few days prior to departure for Squaw Valley in raising extra funds. Yet this team was not representing Kitchener-Waterloo; it was Canada's team. All Canada felt sorrow at their plight and there was experienced almost a national embarrassment when the team lost to the Russians in 1956 and to the Americans last year.
This situation also applied in the cases of Miss Anne Heggtveit, Canada's first Olympic Alpine champion, the champion pair skaters of Toronto and others who competed. They carried the financial burden, assisted by donations from individuals and associations. Our country did not share in the expense incurred in sending these athletes thousands of miles to compete in the highest arena of sports in the world.
In providing this money, however, there is an underlying danger. There must be a proper balance struck so that individual initiative and leadership are maintained and encouraged. Too much welfare dulls the spirit. Not enough of it means misery, as some of our teams that have struggled to compete in international competition will attest. Sport is no different from anything else. If it is made too easy the sportsmen will not appreciate it.
Now the major consideration is, how can this country-wide program of aid to amateur athletics be instituted? This council, to be called a national advisory council on fitness and amateur sport, should have a permanent office in Ottawa, with the funds administered through the department of health and welfare by the minister of that department. So that the ideas can filter down to local
Advisory Council on Sports levels there should be a voluntary provincial council or sports body of some kind headed by an Ottawa appointed sportsman. Then in each sizeable community across the country there should be a local community recreational council similar to the one acting in my home town of Elmira and other similar centres, to carry out the broad program and wishes of the national committee or council. About 15 years ago this council was instituted in my home town and I had the honour and privilege of being its first president. This council has been very successful, and in order to show the committee just what it means, our town of 3,200 people is spending $15,000 every year for recreation and sports purposes.
How can we maintain this spirit of helping while getting aid from the government? One answer could be a national sports day each year, when every local group would sponsor a program to raise money to augment the national effort. We could aim at, perhaps, 10 cents a head. That would provide $10,000 alone in my own twin cities of Kitchener-Waterloo and district, and in Canada as a whole $1.8 million. The money would go a long way to pay administrative costs and some of the expenses. In addition, the publicity and the locally staged efforts would give the program the national focus it would need to whip up country-wide support.
These are my suggestions, Mr. Speaker, for a sports organization that, I believe, will in a few years put Canada in its rightful place in world sports activities, and in so doing it will develop generation after generation of young Canadians with healthy bodies, healthy minds and a true understanding of sportsmanship, fellowship and friendship.
The problem of juvenile delinquency has become so widespread that it constitutes a pretty serious indictment of the society in which we live. The fact that this problem is caused by only a small minority of our youth does not excuse it nor minimize its importance. In 1958 Canada had 31,000 or more juvenile delinquents. Like all proud parents we expect a lot from our children, and we must continue to do so if our young country is to fulfil its ambitions. We should not forget however, that they will only be able to shoulder their responsibilities in a manner consistent with the teaching and example which they have received from us. The sports program suggested by our genial Prime Minister and being brought forward by our government, with the assistance of parents and all sports minded citizens can be priceless in helping to wipe out juvenile delinquency. With a country so young, so virulent, and with such a promising future, can we afford not to have this program?

Advisory Council on Sports
For some years we have had some sports minded citizens who have made a fine contribution to amateur sports, perhaps in some cases unknown to Mr. John Public. I refer to such men as Major Connie Smyth, M.C., of Toronto. Some army officers credit this man with the high place that hockey holds in the army sports program. He made the army hockey conscious when he organized it during world war II. The sports program for Canadian servicemen and their dependents has been steadily broadened in the ten years that Canada has been contributing ground forces directly to NATO. Mr. Len Taylor of Kitchener, one of Ontario's leading sports writers, who has been on many visits to Europe with our competing teams, has this to say:
Some of the most interested people in the projected national sports and recreation council for Canada live in Europe.
Among the Canadian forces overseas there is a greater awareness of the need for a national program than there is among the average man at home. This is due to several factors. One of them is that the army and air force personnel here have been provided with far better facilities than any Canadian community.
Another factor is that they are able to see at first hand what can be done by a national program because most European countries are years ahead of Canada in this field.
These European friends, including our own Canadians, are very interested in the government's sports program aimed at encouraging youth in amateur athletics. May our efforts not be disappointing to them. Recently I read an article written by Peter Fraser in which he refers to another fine Canadian, Mr. Jim Daly, the new national track chairman for the amateur athletic union and former Manitoba half mile champion. This gentleman is promoting a program for more year-round competition on the local level leading up to interprovincial meets and winding up with a national final. Mr. Daly is very enthusiastic and feels that Canada has a track and field potential to finish third in the British empire games. He admits that money is needed to carry out his program, but he feels that sport can ultimately pay its way. This man has done a great deal in promoting track and field for our youth.
Yes, Mr. Chairman, Canada has many such sportsmen ready to take their part in this program. I think of such wonderful organizations as the Royal Canadian Legion. I understand that up to now the Legion has spent up to $80,000 on track and field alone for our young Canadians, and many thousands of dollars on other recreational work. President Kennedy of the United

States recently appointed Charles Wilkinson, the former coach of Oklahoma football teams, to head the national youth fitness program. Mr. Wilkinson thinks that his first problem will be to track down the youth and sell them the idea that getting and staying in shape can be fun. After all, youngsters must be convinced that keeping in condition pays rich, lifelong dividends.
In recent years it has been recognized more and more by Canadians, as well as by our American friends, that physical fitness has an important part to play in the life of every nation; therefore it is gratifying to know that our government has given this desire the impetus it needed, the go-ahead signal that will provide sports for all. I will keep striving to further this program, to assist others in its promotion and to encourage every Canadian to give it his wholehearted support. Let us now forget about our past lack of a national sports program, our lacklustre performances in international events, our poor publicity through weakly supported teams and individual competitors, and look ahead to a brighter future for sports in Canada.
(Translation):


Mr. Clermont:: Mr. Chairman, according to press reports which appeared in most Canadian newspapers on August 28 last, the Prime Minister (Mr. Diefenbaker) stated in Toronto on August 26, at the official opening of the international hockey hall of fame, that he would recommend to parliament the establishment of a national sports council to improve conditions in the field of recreation, amateur athletics and physical education.
The resolution we are now considering contains the following recommendations:
1.	The establishment of a national advisory council for the encouragement of fitness and amateur sport.
2.	To provide for the making of grants to agencies, organizations or institutions.
3.	To provide for entering into an agreement with any province for the payment by Canada to the province of certain contributions in respect of the costs of programs relating to fitness and amateur sport.
4.	That the contributions and moneys paid every year do not exceed in the aggregate $5 million.
5.	To provide for the payment of the chairman's remuneration and of the travelling and other expenses of the members of the council-
Mr. Chairman, the resolution has nothing to say about the standards which will establish the statute of an amateur. Will they be the

standards followed for the Olympic games and which are described thus on page 781 of Encyclopaedia Britannica:
(Text):
An amateur is one who participates and always has participated in sport solely for pleasure and for the physical, mental or social benefits he derives therefrom, and to whom participation in sport is nothing more than recreation without material gain, direct or indirect, and in accordance with the rules of the international federation concerned.
The Canadian amateur hockey association has defined an amateur hockey player as follows:
An amateur hockey player is one who either has not engaged or is not engaged in organized professional hockey or, if he is so engaged, has been reinstated.
(Translation):
Is the council considering other standards?
Which groups of amateur athletes will be eligible for government grants?
Mr. Chairman, I should expect that amateur sports which do not draw such large crowds as, let us say, hockey, baseball, basketball, will get the same consideration from the council.
Sports and recreational activities which should get the considerations of the proposed council would be, for instance, swimming, outdoor athletics, track and field events, hockey, boxing, cycling, fencing, gymnastics, physical education, rowing, shooting, archery, tennis, baseball, figure skating, basketball, judo, etc.
Mr. Chairman, the council will have to tackle the difficult task of dividing fairly this money, so that all sports, all organizations and all athletes benefit by it. There lies the problem. And what a problem it will be.
Up to now each group in the field of sports has been looking after itself as best it could. Each leader worked very hard and devotedly to ensure the success of his section. Now, it is to be feared that they will fight one another in an effort to secure the lion's share of this assistance promised by the federal government.
Sports organizations throughout Canada, sports editors and all those interested in the welfare of our youth and in amateur sport, will undoubtedly be invited to offer their suggestions in order that may be found the formula through which sport-and the country -will get the maximum benefit out of that amount of $5 million.
Mr. Chairman, will the council grant bursaries and fellowships to those who would like to become coaches in the sport section of their 90205-6-551
Advisory Council on Sports choice? Will grants be made for the development of regional schools or clinics to train coaches and referees?
Will the council sign agreements with cities and municipalities, through provincial governments, for the construction of recreation halls or gymnasiums? Will the council give assistance to our athletes and teams participating in national games, international games and Olympic games, in the matter, let us say, of transportation, purchasing of equipment, uniforms and even souvenirs?
Mr. Chairman, it is not merely a case of winning victories, there is our country's prestige to think about, the important part the world of sports can play in the improvement of international relations, so that countries may understand one another better.
When the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Pearson) referred to those projects, he said:
In 1928, Canada had its best successes at the Olympic games.
I should like also to refer to those who, in 1928, won medals for Canada.
(Text):
Mr. P. Williams in the 100 metre dash, Mr. P. Williams in the 200 metre dash, the Canadian team in the 400 metre relay, E. Catherwood in the high jump and J. Wilson in the 500 metre speed skating. The field in which Canada has the most victories is hockey. World hockey competition started in 1920. Canada won the gold medal in 1920, 1924, 1928 and 1932. In 1936 it was won by Great Britain. In 1940 and 1944 there was no competition because of the war. Canada won in 1948 and 1952. Russia won in 1956 and the United States won in 1960.
At one o'clock the committee took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The committee resumed at 2.30 p.m. (Translation):
Gaston Clermont: Mr. Chairman, when the house adjourned, at one o'clock, I had just given the list of the countries that have won the golden medal for hockey at the Olympic games since 1920.
The council could also ask the national radio and television networks, as well as the private stations, to give more time to amateur sports in their reports.
Mr. Chairman, I should also like our organizations, at the national, provincial and local levels, to continue their splendid efforts in the field of amateur athletics.
8730	HOUSE OF
Advisory Council on Sports
At this stage, I should like to quote a paragraph from an editorial which was published in the Ottawa Citizen on August 29, 1961:
(Text):
Local authorities should not think that their responsibility will end with the federal government's action. It will, indeed, be greater than ever, for success in sports as in so many other endeavours depends on community effort. Funds from parliament, thinly spread over the country as they must be, are only intended to give welcome support to local organizations.
(Translation):
Mr. Chairman, our young people must seek more than mere success in sports. While playing their favourite games, they must try to develop the sporting spirit as such, the respect for the opponent, the desire to give a good account of themselves for their country, while at the same time trying to act as ambassadors of good will in all international competitions, thus contributing to the maintenance of world peace.
Mr. Chairman, I have always been interested in amateur athletics as a medium for helping our youth to indulge in healthy recreational activities and to become better citizens in their later years.
I endorse the principle of the resolution, while reserving myself the right to take part in the debate when the bill is before the house.
(Text):


Mr. Taylor:: Mr. Chairman, my first words, of course, are words of commendation. I should like to thank the Prime Minister for the action which he has taken. I had the opportunity of being in Toronto during the Canadian national exhibition when he made this announcement, which was one of great importance. The amount of $5 million annually is about 83 times the amount which the senior government made available for this purpose last year and is exactly $5 million more than the senior government made available during non-Olympic years. During Olympic years, some $60,000 was made available to the Canadian Olympic association.
I should like also to thank the Minister of National Health and Welfare for the fine presentation he made. He certainly indicated that we do not want a nation of spectators but rather a nation of participants. I was impressed by the words of the Leader of the Opposition. The matters with which he dealt were matters about which I have been concerned for some two or three years. I think the Leader of the Opposition made it clear that this was not entirely a matter which could be brought about solely by assistance from Ottawa. It must begin in the home with encouragement by the national government. I


have been impressed, too, with the work that has been done in this connection for many years by the hon. member for Waterloo North. He has done a great deal to assist amateur sports in this country. I felt, too, that one of the colleagues of the Leader of the Opposition would have introduced a similar resolution years ago had he not passed away while doing the type of thing that he loved, namely trying to stretch a two-bagger into a home run. I am referring to the late Lionel Conacher. I think that had he lived, and had he had the Canada council as a precedent, he would have been encouraged to introduce the type of resolution which has been introduced here today. The resolution and the legislation which will follow it is certainly a step in the right direction. It is noted that within the last year the government of France has made provision for this purpose of $125 million to be spent over the next five years on amateur sport with a view to regaining lost prestige in international competition. The government of Sweden has granted a subsidy to amateur sports bodies of 750,000 pounds. The government of England has been asked to contribute 5 million pounds for revenue expenditure and another 5 million pounds for capital expenditure each year.
In passing may I also thank the many officials from across the country who have been associated with amateur sports bodies for writing to me, my colleagues, the Prime Minister and the Minister of National Health and Welfare, encouraging the type of action that has been introduced in the House of Commons today. The list is too long to refer to all of the organizations and to the many officials who have spent a great deal of time in presenting their valuable suggestions and very learned briefs to persons here in Ottawa. Upon passage of the bill, amateur sport in Canada will enter a new era.
The Leader of the Opposition this morning referred to some of the stars of yesterday. While he did not refer to Percy Williams of Vancouver by name, he made reference indirectly to him. I am sure that all of us will recall that Percy Williams popped the eyeballs out of the sporting world when he won two great events overseas. I am sure most of us will recall that he had great difficulty in making his way first of all to Hamilton and then overseas. His trainer came across Canada escorting Chinese to New York and he made his way overseas behind Percy Williams on a cattle boat. That is the kind of thing that had to go on formerly.
Today amateurs in Canada are facing murderous competition in the world. It is this welcome type of action that is being taken today that will bring about great benefits everywhere. It is the type of resolution

that will affect the masses. A small contribution of say $75 in a small town will do wonders in bringing the "small fry" along. I am sure that in due course we shall be able to uncover "world class" amateur prospects who are at present buried away all over Canada and the nation's morale will benefit from it.
I have what I feel is a practical program following the passage of the bill. The first practical step could be that able, conscientious and qualified people be appointed to the council. This could well be the most important issue because it will be these people who will have so much to do in advising the government and in drafting rules which will in turn help so many people. I therefore suggest to the minister that much time and effort be spent in appointing qualified men from across the country.
I think a very fine job was done in the matter of choosing persons to serve on the Canada council. Generally speaking, I think they have done a very good job. I read the most recent Canada council report. It is a fairly glowing report of the progress that has been made in its field. I should like to feel that after this new council has been appointed and has spent some time on the matter, we shall have from it equally glowing reports. In the last annual Canada council report we find the following statement:
-much has been accomplished. This is clearly true of the support that has been given to the humanities and social sciences. With the assistance that the council has been able to provide, the possibilities for advanced study and research in these two areas have been enormously increased; they have not only been enormously increased, they have been taken advantage of, and productive results have followed.
On another page we find this statement:
The arts story for the year 1960-61 is told in detail elsewhere in this report. Here it is appro-pnate to make the generalization that during the past four years our orchestras, theatres, ballets, opera, art galleries and festivals have all benefited by council support. In this area of the council's responsibility many problems exist but the overall condition is one of growth and often of improvement.
Then the report goes on to refer to the many individuals who have been assisted by the Canada council. I know that when this legislation is passed and the council is appointed, many problems will develop. The council will not be able to cure all the ills that will face amateur sport, but certainly much can be done to minimize and eliminate the major ones.
Another practical suggestion which I should like to make to the minister would be this. Upon appointment of the council I would suggest that the members of it should study closely the operations of the Canada council.
90205-6-551J
Advisory Council on Sports The sports council or council of the other name which the minister has given to this proposed council, will have to decide what amateur sports should be assisted most. The council will have to decide what aid can be given to recreation.
Another practical suggestion I should like to make to the minister would be that members of the council should make a study of what is taking place in other countries and should personally examine the athletic facilities, stadia and so on.
Another suggestion-and in my opinion, this is an extremely important one-is that the council and the government should, at an early date, set up two or three national schools for coaches. Here is a program which could be aimed at the masses and from which, as a natural by-product, our super stars will be developed.
As I indicated, we are entering a new era. The Leader of the Opposition has referred to some of the stars of yesterday. It was said that when Neil Colville first went to New York as an amateur his first account which he submitted to the management was "one sack of apples, one detective story magazine, one pair of shoe laces for dress shoes, one box, small, epsom salts and one telegram to dad." If you compare that account alongside the accounts of modern day stars, it would certainly be refreshing to those who organize amateur sports to go back to that type of thing. In the new era it is no longer good enough for a coach to say, "Here is the net and there is the puck. Put the puck in the net". There is more to the matter than that in this day and generation.
It is no longer true to say, as one athlete said, "Just give me the gloves, any old gloves, and a referee who can count to 10". Times have changed on the world scene, nationally and individually.
I should also like to suggest that the council proclaim an Olympics week every four years, when citizens could be urged to support, with money and otherwise, the Canadian Olympic team. The Leader of the Opposition today pointed out that it was his hope that once the new council was set up and these funds were made available, the public would continue to support our amateurs. Once financial assistance was given to the arts and the humanities, support increased; it did not decrease. I suggest that may well be the situation after we have formed the new council.
I should also like to make another suggestion. Under the new legislation grants should be made to appropriate cities in Canada that show a marked interest in and the ability to hold the Pan-American games.
8732	HOUSE OF
Advisory Council on Sports I am sure hon. members are aware of the fact that Canada has never entertained the Pan-American games. We have never entertained the winter or summer Olympics, or the world hockey finals. It is rather a sad comment to find that next year the world hockey finals go to Colorado.
I hope that in this young and vigorous country we will soon be able to bring these international sports events to Canada, because it will do so much to foster new interest on the part of our young people.
Another suggestion which I put forward is this. May I refer, by way of a good example, to the fact that when Percy Williams returned to Vancouver in 1928 renewed interest was taken in track and field sports, with the result that in Vancouver today we hold the largest track and field meets in all Canada. While Empire stadium is not filled to capacity, the crowds number over 20,000 for these track and field events. I feel that some credit is due to Percy Williams for having set an example.
I should also like to suggest that under this new legislation the federal government should give every consideration to the construction and erection of those things which would encourage the youth of Canada to participate in outdoor activities. That is very significant in my area because we have upwards of 5,000 skiers leaving the province of British Columbia every week to ski at Mount Baker in the United States. I feel that under this legislation encouragement could at least be given to the building of those facilities which will keep our amateurs and our skiers at home. This in itself will reward us in many ways.
With this new fund it will be possible for our outstanding athletes to visit the youth of Canada. Personal visits by our best athletes will do wonders in encouraging others to participate in sport. Knowing the champion pays off with young people.
In the past I have witnessed one soccer club after another coming to Vancouver. This is a fine idea. But very seldom do we see our national amateur hockey clubs on the coast. I hope that with the new funds to be made available we will be able to see our national clubs. Whether it be in hockey, lacrosse, or whatever the sport; and we should see our star tennis players, and so on.
Another suggestion I put forward is that once the new council is formed it could encourage the Department of Trade and Commerce to ensure that Canada constructs hospitality centres at international sports shows. I was impressed with the hospitality centres constructed by France and Austria at Squaw Valley. I should like to suggest


that when winter Olympics are held in Austria next year Canada should construct hospitality centres there. Furthermore, with these new funds we could hand out these simple, inexpensive pins which young people at these events like to wear. This plays a very important part at these shows. We do not lack the common courtesies at these international events, but we are certainly lacking in some of these matters.
I also suggest that the council could encourage the national film board to attend international sports shows to take films of Canadians participating therein. Different organizations across this country would like to secure films of some of these events and see, for instance, some of the figure skating of Barbara Wagner and Bob Paul; but there are no such films available. Here is a job which could be done with the encouragement of the new council. Appropriate training films could be provided and these could be sent across the country.
I should also suggest that when the council is formed they should do everything possible to encourage the C.B.C. to attend these international shows. In the past the C.B.C. radio has been there, but not C.B.C. television. I think a much better job could be done in this regard. I also suggest that sustaining grants be made to various existing sports governing bodies which are organized on a national basis to enable them to do a more effective job of promoting and developing their own particular sport. Another suggestion is that grants of a non-recurring nature should be made for special projects at the national, provincial or local levels.
I should also like to suggest that grants be made to provide necessary salaries for the upgrading of coaches, a matter I touched upon earlier, the initial stage being designed to provide qualified leaders in the universities and colleges. Another suggestion is that grants be made to the Canadian Olympic Association, the British empire and commonwealth games association of Canada and other organizations concerned with officially recognized international events.
Another suggestion I put forward is that grants be made to universities and colleges and other organizations for the encouragement of intersectional games and/or appropriate national championships.
I further suggest that grants be made for the development of suitable programs of physical recreation such as camping, mountaineering, hiking, etc. Furthermore, grants could be made to the Canadian association for health, physical education and recreation to support consultant and leadership services and increased publications.

These are some practical suggestions which I desire to make and I hope that the minister will in due course give consideration to them. In closing, I wish to say once again how pleased I am to find that appropriate action has been taken by this administration. I am sure that in due course the results will be felt everywhere.
I realize that we will not be able to achieve too much in a short period of time. However, I should like to feel that at the next British Empire games Canada will at least rank ahead of South Africa and that in due course at some of these sports events we will be able to get a few more points than Mexico, and the West Indies. I again wish to thank the government for taking this action.


Mr. Badanai:: Mr. Chairman, the idea of a Canada sports council was in all probability sparked by the success of the Canada council which was established by the Liberal government of Louis St. Laurent to assist the arts, humanities and social sciences. This was a popular move which met great success and has been a tower of strength in assisting worthy individuals and organizations. I venture to say that the general approval which greeted the establishment of the Canada council will also be extended to the Canada sports council.
The Prime Minister's announcement which he made on the occasion of the opening of the hockey hall of fame in Toronto last month, to the effect that a national advisory council on fitness would be established and that an annual federal contribution of $5 million will be made available for the purpose of giving encouragement and stimulation to interest in physical fitness and the development of recreational facilities was received with general approval. It is a recognition that in the day and age in which we live there is a great need for active promotion of sports and athletics on a national basis in which a maximum participation by all those agencies with experience in the field of physical exercise and development should be encouraged.
Here we are dealing with the health and fitness of the people of the nation. I am glad to see in this resolution that the government is concerned with the fitness of the people of the nation. This resolution does not spell out how this sports council will be administered nor who shall benefit most from it. We have agencies such as the Y.M.C.A., scout movements, girl guides, community recreational committees, parks boards, and others, all making an inestimable contribution to the sum total of recreation.
Provincial governments are also doing their share in community sports leadership training. I visualize that the federal government
Advisory Council on Sports sponsored the sports council as a co-ordinator of municipal and provincial governments' efforts in the fitness field, and to meet the opportunities of sending athletes to compete in international contests such as the Olympic games. In such cases, the council would assist in ensuring that no Canadian team would leave our land without maximum training and provisions for their welfare.
We should never allow a situation to arise where a community would bankrupt itself in order to finance its own team as we witnessed when the Belleville hockey team was financed for its attendance at the world competition in Europe a couple of years ago, through a questionable use of city funds, thus casting a shadow on the brilliant victory they won. What was more deplorable was the slander and suspicion of mismanagement directed towards some of that city's elected representatives and faithful servants. I honestly believe that an injustice was done to these public spirited public servants whose sole interest in the matter was to assist in the only way they knew possible to enable their team to win top honours in the international field.
Canada is blessed with a few unselfish hockey enthusiasts who in spite of lack of public support have made a great contribution in fostering the participation of boys of school age in the game of hockey. I have in mind an example in Mr. Maurice Black of Toronto who organized the first hockey school. Out of 70 boys attending only 30 could pay a small tuition fee. If such schools were assisted this would render an inestimable service in the promotion of good clean Canadian sport and at the same time would represent a step forward in assisting Canada to catch up with other countries in terms of athletic achievement and national physical fitness.
The Pepsi-Cola Company of Canada Limited is also to be complimented for its interest and assistance by way of substantial contributions towards enabling some 325,000 young Canadians between ages 12 and 19 to participate in Canadian sport. This was accomplished through the promotion of regional junior championships in a wide range of sports.
Last year, Canada lost the Olympic hockey title at Squaw Valley for the obvious reason that there was a lack of co-ordination in the selection of the team which evidently did not have a sufficient workout in terms of meeting other teams before leaving Canada.
In all of these fields government assistance would be necessary. This loss of prestige by Canada in a sport which was born and developed in this country, revealed without a doubt the need to get the very best out in front before sending a team to an Olympic competition.

Advisory Council on Sports
The loss of the gold medal in the 1960 Olympic hockey event in a sport which we always claimed to be our national game further damaged our prestige and morale. Hockey is to Canada what baseball is to the United States, yet a team from the land of the stars and stripes beat us at our own game.
If as a nation we have grown complacent and are deluding ourselves by thinking that we are superior, and if we are relying on our past performance rather than realizing the ever present danger of being beaten by more determined, better trained, better financed opponents, then we have reached a dangerous state of affairs, and we should not blame the referees but rather our indolent attitude towards amateur sports.
In my opinion the answer to the problem is embodied in the resolution which we are discussing and that is, for the federal government to accept the challenge of encouraging sport in all its phases, and to accept the responsibility of contributing financial support, especially when we are selecting the cream of our youth for international competitions abroad. Canadians are not only proficient in ice hockey, but in skiing, skating, swimming, curling, track and field, rugby and rowing. We have a rowing club in Fort William which won the Lipton trophy in international competition eight years in a row. My constituency also boasts of a rugby team which won the dominion intermediate rugby championship two years ago. In the event that an opportunity of competing in far away places arose, these teams could not enter without a measure of financial support which our city would not be able to provide. The Canadian Legion branches of Manitoba and northwestern Ontario have an Olympic training plan for track and field clubs. In July, 1958 they were able to send some representatives to Toronto. One girl placed first and another second in the high jump event of the Canadian Olympic training plan.
Two summers ago, 11 athletes attended the Canadian Legion youth training course in Toronto, and managed to bring home three gold medals, and several silver and bronze medals. These athletes had to pay their own expenses in attending meets such as the prairie track conference held in Saskatoon, the Pan-American trials, and the invitation meet at Bemidji, Minnesota.
It should be understood that athletes need outside competition for their development without which the chances of winning in a highly competitive sport are almost nil. It is to be noted that the organizations which conduct these various sports activities operate in many ways and are constantly begging

for support. The training and skill required in these sports are sometimes helpful in determining the future of many young men carving out careers for themselves in businesses. Some of these men have gone into businesses of their own, and have made good.
By giving our sports minded young men and women encouragement and assistance in deserving cases we would create a favourable climate for good and intelligent citizenship, resulting in inestimable dividends in terms of service to the nation. The council should not however, consider that its existence is for the sole purpose of assisting athletes to take part in international contests. From the Prime Minister's statement, I gathered that this national advisory council on fitness will function in a pattern similar to the Canada council, and if so, I submit the following suggestions. Qualified leadership, properly trained and highly competent, is priority No. 1. It therefore seems necessary to encourage coaches and physical educators to obtain more training, and money should be provided for clinics and summer courses. Such clinics and courses should include all sports and physical fitness.
I believe that emphasis should be placed on physical fitness with a number of short term courses conducted across Canada, and subsidization should be considered for those who could attend courses of longer duration, even if this involves sending people outside our own country. There is some need for training officials as well as instructors in all the various sports.
I would like to call attention to a matter which should be of special interest to a Canada sports council, and that is the junior leaders training conference which the Y.M.C.A. conducts annually at Geneva park, lake Couchiching, and which was attended to the number of 76, by members of leaders corps this past year, from Saskatoon to Montreal. This is an intensive training program for those who will render volunteer service in their own Y.M.C.A.'s and communities. The cost is carried by the leaders and by their own Y.M.C.A.'s, and if a subsidy in the way of travel were possible, it would mean that more leaders could be brought from outside Ontario. Without enlarging on this, it is obvious that Canada needs more Olympic sized pools and more running tracks. In addition, I feel that every consideration should be given to encourage the family engaging in sports and recreation. I have in mind such things as canoeing, camping, hiking, and such like.
May I presume that the interest of the Canada sports council would be in the amateur and not in the professional athlete. We should,

therefore, have concern for the athlete with a future who does not have the opportunity to go to college or to receive a sports scholarship. I would like to see standards created for sports clubs and athletic organizations, and those meeting the sports standards to be assisted financially so as to involve greater numbers.
Financial aid could be considered for those organizations willing to promote provincial and/or Canadian championships. Finance could be considered for those athletes meeting standards to be assisted to attend provincial and/or Canadian championships.
A general athletic development would contribute to the solution of the problem which faces this young nation of having so many of our young Canadians unfit, as was discovered by medical boards in the second world war to the consternation of Canadians in general. It is worthy of note that Prince Philip, during one of his visits to Canada, brought this national weakness to the attention of the Canadian people in his characteristic and forceful fashion.
What I have been trying to convey is probably not the complete answer. Other hon. members have made notable contributions, particularly the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard, who was the first member to bring this to the attention of the government last year. I certainly hope that some of my suggestions may commend themselves to the Prime Minister and to the government. I also hope that during discussion of the bill the government will be willing to accept, if necessary and if found desirable, amendments which may be proposed. I think it will be a great day for Canada and for Canadian youth when we pass this bill and money is made available for worthy individuals and organizations.
(Translation):


Mr. Bourbonnais:: Mr. Chairman, like other members who spoke before me, I am pleased to take this opportunity to say a few words about this resolution.
The Prime Minister (Mr. Diefenbaker) announced recently in Toronto that the federal government was going to provide a substantial assistance to the field of amateur sport in Canada. All the young people of Quebec, and even those who are not quite so young, were very enthusiastic when they learned that at long last the central government was going to deal with this matter which, in order of importance, comes immediately after that of primary education. Indeed, sports are an essential complement to the education of our
Advisory Council on Sports youth, and the Minister of National Health and Welfare (Mr. Monteith) is to be commended for having introduced this measure the results of which will be invaluable in a few years.
On February 10, 1959, the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard (Mr. Taylor) made a most eloquent speech in the house-he repeated it this afternoon-when he recommended the establishment of a council to encourage amateur sports. The hon. member must undoubtedly be very happy that the Conservative government has seen fit to take action with respect to his recommendation, which should set an example for all members.
Another member who did a lot to call the government's attention on the importance of setting up an amateur sport council, is the member for Waterloo (Mr. Weichel) who spoke this afternoon but who made numerous speeches in that connection during previous sessions.
The people of the province of Quebec remember that the former premier of our province, the late Maurice Duplessis, liked to attend hockey or baseball games whenever he had the time. It is because of his interest in professional sport that he brought his government to vote-a thing which had never been done before-large amounts of money for the recreational centres of the province, which had been specially established for the practice of amateur sports. His immediate successor, the late Paul Sauve, also recognized the importance of amateur sport and, following the example of his predecessor, contributed much to promote that cause. For example, one of the finest sport centres, the "Centre Paul-Sauve", was erected in Montreal and thousands of young people in the metropolis benefit by it.
In my riding, numerous sport organizations are to be found. In almost all parishes, there is a recreational centre for our youth. Recently, olympiads were held at Vaudreuil and also on Perrot island, where hundreds of young girls and boys took part in the different competitions. The example set by those parishes should prompt all the others to establish such sport festivals. At Hudson, there is the little baseball league, where four clubs are in competition for the local championship. The winning team then plays against other clubs of the area until it is eliminated. We have there some 60 boys between the ages of nine and 13 who are learning, while enjoying themselves, one of the great principles of life: "There is always someone better than you and you must learn how to lose in order to know how to win."

Advisory Council on Sports
I could mention many sport organizations in my county and in the province of Quebec which enable our young citizens to indulge in wholesome recreation and to spend their leisure time building up their bodies and their minds.
I should like to take this opportunity to pay tribute to all voluntary organizers and coaches who are really dedicated and who devote much of their precious time, their efforts and in many cases their money to teach our youth the way to indulge in wholesome recreation.
Sports instructors are doing an invaluable contribution. How many of our youth have been spared from a life of debauch by having been invited to join some amateur team where they have met better companions and found out they had certain natural dispositions which, once developed, restored their confidence and gave them new aspirations? How many of our youth have been lured away from bars by our instructors who made them like sports and showed them how to achieve their physical development?
There are many, many examples, and it is to the credit of those who recognized the importance of amateur sport and who tirelessly worked for that cause. Unfortunately, the number of these charitable people is too limited. Today, in this materialistic age which is affecting all groups of our society, it becomes more and more difficult to ask the individual to make the sacrifice of his time and his energy to teach our youth how to make good use of their leisure hours.
Recreational organizations cannot manage to find the necessary funds to pay for their equipment and provide the locals required by modern sports. Much less can they find the necessary financial means to pay instructors and supervisors who must supplement voluntary workers. Although it is desirable to leave it up to the parents to organize and finance those institutions whose purpose is to supplement the education of their children, it remains that the state, be it at the municipal, provincial or federal level, is duty bound to contribute to the development of amateur sports, which are an indispensable complement to the culture we wish to give our children.
There was a time in the province of Quebec when religious teaching institutions were the only ones to encourage and organize amateur sports. Members of those institutions, priests and teaching brothers, were the only ones to recognize the importance for all young people to practice some kind of sport and to participate in team games.
Those institutions were too widely dispersed in the province of Quebec, and at

that time only a very small proportion of our young people were able to benefit from the advantage of amateur sports.
Today, almost all our villages and parishes have very modern schools and adequate and competent teachers. On the other hand, this lay personnel must be paid according to a contract where the teaching of sports is not mentioned. Therefore, in the very great majority of our schools, more particularly the rural ones, which have known fantastic changes in the last 20 years, organized sports and even the practice of sports are unknown. In our schools, sports are left in the hands of devoted people who do not have enough time to give them the required attention. Our young people therefore suffer from a lack of physical training and competitive spirit which would enable them to face the problems of their age with more confidence.
This is in no way limited to the province of Quebec, but extends to all the rural areas of this country.
This is what an officer of the 4th Canadian brigade meant, when, speaking of relations between the children of our Canadian military personnel stationed in Germany and their young German friends, he said:
(Text):
Canadian kids don't want to play games with their German opposite numbers; the Germans are too athletic and too competitive.
(Translation):
This shows a gap in the sports education of our Canadian youth. We know how Germany recovered politically, economically and morally since the end of the last war, and this is due in a large measure to the physical fitness of all her citizens.
This country which knew the greatest destruction and the worst defeat in her history, in 1945, has rebuilt and is experiencing today a prosperity unequalled by any European country, through the determination and the will to succeed of all her citizens. These two qualities are not hereditary, but are acquired by intensive training from a very tender age. This physical training improves the health and strengthens the will power through participation in competitive sports where there is eagerness to overcome all obstacles.
This example of our young Canadians who refuse to play with their German friends, because they are physically superior, should be a lesson to us.
The measure proposed by the Minister of National Health and Welfare is adequate and will give all the Canadians the required incentive to regain lost time in the field of

amateur sports and will improve their physical condition to make it superior to that of most of their elders.
There is no doubt that the Canadian people love sport. But I think that we are all somewhat of the spectator type sportsmen who prefer to watch their favourite sport while comfortably seated in an arena, or in a chair before a T.Y. set. We would rather watch the performance of some professional hockey or football stars.
I would not wish to criticize our professional athletes who bring us fame, especially in hockey, and who contributed in spreading throughout the world that typically Canadian sport which spotlighted the excellence of our athletes abroad. But our interest in professional sports should not cause confusion in the minds of our youth about the very reason for the existence of sports in a highly civilized country.
Active participation in any sport is becoming more necessary for all young Canadians, particularly so with the modern tendency to replace men by machines, due to which physical effort is becoming less necessary to ensure one's survival.
Since everyone can put forward his suggestions concerning the use of the funds to be voted following the adoption of the legislation before us, I, for one, would rather have greater emphasis placed on youth training in sports and on the practice of physical exercises.
Our young people have no idea of how to organize and amuse themselves until some instructor gives them that knowledge. The young from six to 16 or 18 years of age need a monitor, or a coach to teach them how to participate with enthusiasm in team games. It is also necessary to have someone teach them physical education and other sciences. The participation of our amateur athletes in the Olympics or in other international competitions is very important to maintain our country's prestige abroad, and everyone across Canada is happy whenever one of our fellow citizens wins a trophy or a gold medal for his achievements in a competition. But if we are to increase our achievements in sport competitions abroad, the first thing to do is to train all the young people among whom we shall discover many potential athletes.
I therefore suggest that those monitors and coaches be trained through an agreement with the provinces or by the Canadian armed forces, so that every city, town or parish may have some day, one or more experts in the organization of amateur sports, coaches or physical instructors.
Advisory Council on Sports
A special corps under the control of the Canadian army could be formed and young people 14 years old or more could join during the summer holidays and learn the science of sport organizing and physical education. In addition, when they returned to their books, those young people could teach others what they had learned in such training camps, while they were paid for that service, which would help them to carry on their education.
A number of other suggestions could be made, Mr. Chairman, but what really matters is to arouse, in our young people, the desire to take part in sports and to train themselves so as to become champions, true Canadians, strong and exuberantly healthy.
What young man has not dreamt some day of being as great as Maurice Richard, Gordie Howe, Robert Bedard or Babe Ruth? We must replace this inclination to dreams by the desire to undergo training. We are therefore responsible for giving them the opportunity of doing so and of becoming what we have dreamt of being ourselves one day.
In the resolution, reference is made to the agreements which might be signed with the provinces in order to legislate on the amounts of money to be handed out to them under the physical fitness and amateur sports program. This reference is a good indication of the attitude of the Conservative government-that of always respecting the autonomy of the provinces, especially of those that are very sensitive in that respect, when education is concerned.
In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, I want to say how proud and happy I am to note that the resolution before us will be yet another of the many important accomplishments of this Conservative government. I feel proud, for the benefits which young Canadians will derive from this measure will be to the credit of the Prime Minister (Mr. Diefenbaker), of the Minister of National Health and Welfare, and to the credit of all the members of this house, and especially of those who are responsible for it.
(Text):


Mr. Macdonnell:: Mr. Chairman, I should like to make a small contribution to this debate. I think that up to the present it has been most useful. The minister put the subject forward on a broad and intelligible basis, and the discussion has been carried forward on that basis. This matter could be of enormous importance. It seems to me that some of the incidental things that have come out during this debate have indicated how important the considerations are. One of the things I liked about the minister's speech was that he made it quite clear this was not merely a resolution on physical fitness
8738	HOUSE OF
Advisory Council on Sports but also on what might be called morale or moral fitness. He pointed out how far-reaching the effect would be, stating that participation in athletics had an effect on peoples' emotional nature; that it helped them make friends. He even suggested it might help us make international friends. He had in mind perhaps an ancient practice which is referred to by one of the nineteenth century poets. In speaking of the Persians he said the Persians taught three useful things: "To draw the bow, to ride and to speak the truth". I take it the implication in that is that they felt physical fitness and moral fitness were akin to each other. I think so too.
I was delighted, as I say, with the breadth of the minister's approach to this subject because I felt that it meant he would be seeking for the national council the kind of men who will understand these things and do a good job.
If I may just digress for a moment, when the minister was speaking about sport being a means to international friendship I thought of the current issue of the London Illustrated News. It was rather pleasant to see a picture of the Russian crew taking the grand challenge at royal Henley and another picture showing an English oarsman winning the singles and being congratulated by the Russian who had been defeated. I am not forgetting what the Leader of the Opposition said this morning, that we need not deceive ourselves when the Russians come to participate in our academic events. They may not be single-minded; they may have other things in their minds, but that does not worry me. My feeling is that in the end it will be good. The more we see of each other, the less likely we are to drop bombs on each other. In my opinion, we must go ahead although there are plenty of discouragements, as the minister implied, with these friendships.
I should like to come back now to say a word about sport and our own parliamentary system. I believe it was the great American writer William James who said the English parliamentary system could not exist without a spirit of sportsmanship. What did he mean by that? I think it is very clear and was made clear by a remark in this house by the late C. D. Howe years ago. He said, speaking of the House of Commons, "we of the government open the house but you in the opposition close it." How true that is. What does that mean? It means that the business of this place could be brought to an absolutely dead end unless there were a spirit of sportsmanship, of give and take.
This same spirit can be applied to other things. It can be applied to business. We know there was a time, perhaps it is not so prevalent now, when a current phrase throughout


the world was, "the word of an Englishman". Consider what a promoter of efficiency that was. We all know that in business if you can take a man at his word, you have greater efficiency. Those of you who are lawyers know that there is a phrase used by lawyers. I would not do business with him on the telephone. We all know what that means. We all know how it slows up the conduct of business.
However, I come back to say that I was glad the minister referred to the emotional side in his speech this morning. Do not let us forget that the Secretary of State for External Affairs, when reviewing external affairs the other day, said that we had to toughen ourselves and be prepared to perhaps make sacrifices and bear burdens we had not borne before. Those of us who have been in the army will know what it would have meant to try to carry on war unless you had people who had been brought up through the practice of sport to have a sporting sense and a spirit of toughness.
I am not going to go into the details of the subject. People who have spoken in this debate know much more than I do about the details of athletics, and they have been able to make much more useful and practical suggestions. There is only one point I want to make, and I want to stress it as strongly as I can. I believe there are a lot of people who regard this bill as something which is designed to promote greater skill and promote a larger number of highly skilled athletes. This is not my idea. I do not mean we should not make a reasonable grant towards the Olympic games. I do not mean that at all. But in my opinion what we want is a democracy of athletics; we want the largest number of people playing. We want them to be playing, as the minister said this morning, not for the prize but for the love of the game.
I was terribly taken aback by what the hon. member for Peterborough said this morning. I could hardly believe my ears. However, I have spoken to him since and I had not misunderstood him. He said we now had in the schools a great many boys who do not want to play games. I assumed every right thinking, healthy Canadian boy wanted to play athletic games. I was devastated to hear that was not so. Then, I began thinking about it and I said to myself, why is it not so? There were two things that occurred to me and I think they are both relevant. The first is professionalism. The production of people of super skill who become heroes to the youth has the effect of discouraging the youth from taking part in games. The boys feel, what is the use; I cannot be an expert so why should I play?

Another thing is the lack of playing fields. I think it was the minister who spoke about city life, automation and the effect of that. When I go up and down my constituency and see boys playing hockey, if you please, on the dry streets without any other place to play, it makes me realize that playing conditions are very unsatisfactory.
I lived in a small city when I was a boy and we had playing fields within 100 yards of my home. We never lacked them. Now, we have this new urban civilization, and I think we are faced with a new problem. I say again that I hope with all my heart the bulk of the grant which is being made will be made to encourage the participation of the largest number. When I was told that the desire to play athletic games had lessened, I wondered if that had anything to do with education. I wondered if the literature the boys were reading was different. We used to read Sir Walter Scott, what I suppose one would call heroic literature. I wondered whether this tendency had disappeared. Those who know more about education than I do will know whether or not this is a consideration.
I feel, with all my heart, that if we are raising a generation of boys who do not like athletic games, then it is a dangerous situation. Every one of us should be concerned about it. I believe that as firmly as I believe that I am standing here. I have little more to add, but I should like to repeat what I said a moment ago. I hope very little of this money will go for the purpose of providing high class coaches and high class players. They will be provided by business. In my opinion the box office will take care of them. But what I hope will come from this legislation is that there will be democracy of athletics and that we shall work against a situation in which young boys sit and watch television or engage in other equally unathletic occupations rather than take part in athletic games.
The last point I wish to make is with regard to the question of the council. It, of course, will be all important. I have no nominations to make. Judging from the minister's speech this morning, I am quite sure that we can safely leave the matter in his hands. I have just one suggestion to make for what it is worth. I believe that the chairman of this council ought to be a man who is in touch with youth. For that reason I would hope the minister would take a good look at universities and other educational institutions, including high schools, if you like. At any rate, I would hope that he would endeavour to find someone who really has been in touch with youth and who knows the problems such
Supply-Health and Welfare as those disclosed this morning by the hon. member for Peterborough. If that is the line on which the grant is used and if that is the line the council follows it seems to me that what we are doing today is something we can look back upon as one of the most important actions we have taken for a long time.
Resolution reported and concurred in.
Mr. Monteith (Perlh) thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. C-131 to encourage fitness and amateur sport.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.

DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL HEALTH AND WELFARE Welfare branch-
Family allowances and old age security-
266. Administration, $3,341,497.


William Moore Benidickson: We had a feeling that the minister would give to us a little bit more explanation in reply to the inquiries that have been made and would go beyond saying that he was giving it very earnest study, something which he has been doing for a couple of years or more. Having in mind the fact that we closed on this item at 10.30 last night without an opportunity for him to talk to us, can he not tell us a little bit more about what has resulted from the studies he has made in this field.


Jay Waldo Monteith: No. I have nothing further to add. I have explained this matter many times and have said that the report has been studied by a special committee of officials and is now being studied by the government. I cannot report anything further, other than to say that when a decision is made as to action it will, of course, be reported.


Paul Joseph James Martin: The minister was more encouraging last evening than he is now. He said that an interdepartmental committee had been set up to study this matter and that we could anticipate an announcement by the government much earlier than we would normally have anticipated. We have all taken that statement to mean that the minister was going to bring down some definite policy or program within the course of the next two or three months at the latest. The minister's statement now is not as generous as was the one made in answer to the interrogations I put to him last night. I do not know whether the reason is that the question this afternoon was put by the hon. member for Kenora-Rainy River. However, the minister has not been as forthcoming to the hon.

Supply-Health and Welfare member for Kenora-Rainy River as the latter deserves and as he was to me last night. This contradiction, in my opinion, calls for a clear and unequivocal statement by the minister with regard to a matter which he acknowledges he has now been studying for three years.


Jay Waldo Monteith: I should just like to read my words of last evening. They will stand as of today both for the hon. member for Essex East and in reply to the hon. member for Kenora-Rainy River. As found at page 8708 of Hansard I said this:
An interdepartmental committee has been studying it. X should not be too greatly surprised if before too long he were informed of the government's action.
I still stand by that statement.


William Moore Benidickson: Does that depend on an election?


An hon. Member:: It might.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I thank the minister for this confirmation. May I ask him to bear in mind in his studies something that is not contained in the Clark report. What I refer to is this. Having in mind that the old age survivors system in the United States is based entirely on contributions from the pensioner and the employer, there being no financial participation whatsoever by the state, such a scheme in Canada might not be as feasible unless there were contributions by Canada.
We have already put on record our party's view with regard to this matter. We have said that we believe the time has come when such a contributory scheme should be provided for, supplemental to the existing universal old age security plan, and that if and when such a contributory scheme is adopted it should include contributions from Canada as a whole. We hope the minister will give consideration to the position which was enunciated by our leader two years ago in this House of Commons, with regard to a matter that is engaging the public attention more and more.
The problem of our ageing population is, of course, a vital one. Our population is ageing. By 1975 the number of people who will have reached the qualifying age for the universal old age security pension will have considerably increased. The problem of meeting the requirements of an ageing population is not, of course, one that is peculiar to Canada alone. It is one which exists in this country. However, I hope I have a right to be heartened by the statement the minister has made this afternoon.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Stage Direction]

269. Emergency health, welfare and training services, $8,004,165.
Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Chairman, this vote of $8 million represents the contributions made by the Department of National Health and Welfare to civil defence. This aspect of civil defence, of course, is confined to emergency health, welfare and training services.
I should like to deal with one aspect of the minister's responsibility. I refer to the two important announcements he made in this house during the course of the last few days, when he advised us of the increase in radioactivity levels following the various explosions, undertaken by the Soviet union, following the breakdown of the nuclear tests talks and the decision of the Soviet union to ignore the moratorium and carry on tests.
Perhaps there is no more important problem facing mankind today than the implications resulting from these explosions. I have already said that the house and the country warmly supports the minister in the decision to keep the Canadian people fully informed of the levels of radiation from these explosions. I sincerely hope the minister will keep up this practice. The country will expect it and will applaud him if from time to time, when parliament is in session or when parliament is not in session, the minister keeps the Canadian people informed about the levels of radiation from test explosions and other forms, more traditional, from which have flowed an even higher measure of radioactivity.
The Leader of the Opposition asked the Prime Minister to see to it that the results of these two recent readings were made known to the United Nations. One would hope that these readings would have an impressive bearing on the proposal now before the United Nations, for a further effort toward banning nuclear tests. However, there are certain aspects of this problem that have not been touched upon in the minister's statements or in the comments made by opposition members following those statements. I think I should deal with these at this time.
I am not quarrelling with what the minister said. Certainly I would not be in any position, scientifically, to take issue with him and I have no doubt that what the minister said represents the best scientific thinking available to him. But since he made these two statements I have had an opportunity of examining the observations made by several Canadian scientists, one in Manitoba and one in Halifax.
I regret that I do not have at my fingertips the names of the two Canadian scientists

who have expressed the view that the levels of radiation, prior to the recent Soviet union explosions did warrant the belief that there was an increase in the danger to human health. The two statements of the minister established the view that the extent of radioactivity in our country, including that brought about by the 13 or 14 Soviet union explosions, had not added appreciably to the danger to human health in our country.
These two scientists, however, take issue with this view. As the minister knows much better than I, the scientific opinion in the world on this whole question is divided. I have before me now some notes that I made on a recent statement of Dr. Linus Pauling, one of the Nobel prize winners in physics. I might possibly have refrained from relying, for the present purposes of my argument, on Dr. Pauling because of the political views which one might reasonably have thought he entertained. However, the recent statement he has made is directed not against any test explosions by the United States-those test explosions, of course, were made underground and in the laboratories-but against the test explosions made by the Soviet union.
I do not believe that if we are going to discharge our responsibility to future generations we can overlook this problem. We need not make dogmatic assertions as to the existing danger, but I do not believe we can ignore the kind of statements made by Dr. Pauling and others.
If future generations should suffer, particularly through strontium 90, which takes a long time to level out, and if as a result of these explosions and other forms of radioactivity human beings suffer from cancer and the like, we in this generation will, I think properly, be held accountable if we do not demonstrate that degree of care and concern which I am sure we all want to display at this time.
Dr. Pauling estimated that today-that is, as of yesterday-the fall-out from nuclear tests carried out by the Soviet union in the current series will increase by 5 per cent to 10 per cent the total of human death and damage which would ultimately have been caused by the tests of all nations up to the end of 1958.
If that statement is true, then the situation is even more serious than that conveyed in the two statements made by the minister. I am sure it will be found that other scientists do not fully agree with these conclusions of Dr. Pauling, but we cannot ignore a man who has been recognized in this field, through having beeen awarded the Nobel prize. We must take into account his views as well as those of Dr. Teller, for instance, the discoverer of the first American atomic bomb.
Supply-Health and Welfare
Dr. Pauling argues that previous tests could be expected to cause, for instance,
140,000	grossly defective children to be born in the next few generations due to the relation of fission products such as cesium 137. He also says that 2 million grossly defective children will be born over hundreds of generations as a result of the atmospheric production of carbon 14, which has a half life of 6,000 years. He also argues that the deaths of 140,000 people before their time in the present and the future generations due to leukaemia, bone cancer, other forms of cancer and other diseases might result from strontium 90 fall-out.
He then points out that if Mr. Khrushchev should carry out his threat of discharging 100 megaton bombs the damage would be double the present calculated damage.
He concludes his statement by saying:
When scientists such as Dr. Edward Teller, the American father of the H-bomb, speaks of there being "no danger" from radioactive fall-out they are using the word "danger" in a special sense. They mean there is no danger of the human race coming to an end or of countries being depopulated by the radioactive fall-out from bomb tests. They do not mean that individual human beings will not suffer and die.
We cannot ignore the deaths and suffering which nuclear testing, certainly if continued on an accelerated scale, will cause. I join with all hon. members of the committee and others in the country, in supporting the government and particularly the Department of National Health and Welfare in the pursuit of the sampling and testing that is being undertaken. We hope it will be possible for countries not now fully contributing to the collective effort of the United Nations in these sampling processes to do so. I believe that Canada is undertaking for certain countries tests on foods such as milk. We hope that in the interests of mankind itself all countries would ultimately assume these responsibilities.
I know the minister is concerned about this problem. He has indicated that thus far there has been no real injury to human health. That was the view taken in the United Kingdom in 1956. The minister might tell us if he subscribes to the view expressed by the Right Hon. Ian Macleod who said on March 22, 1956 that radiation does produce genetic effects but that the radioactivity of the atmosphere is increased only slightly as a result of nuclear bomb explosions. Is the situation today substantially that, notwithstanding the increase in the levels following the recent explosions undertaken by the Soviet union? Is it still the view, as stated by Mr. Macleod at that time, that present knowledge is insufficient to fix precisely the level of radioactivity above which genetic damage would substantially affect the well being of populations?
8742	HOUSE OF
Supply-Health and Welfare
Mr. Macleod also observed on that occasion that research in genetic changes is necessarily and inevitably slow in producing conclusive results. Have any new conclusions been arrived at with regard to the rapidity from which inferences may be drawn?
Mr. Macleod concluded his statement with remarks which I quoted in the House of Commons in reply to a question put to me in my capacity as minister of national health and welfare. He said, in effect, that it is extremely unlikely that the increase in radioactivity which has appeared up to the present will have any appreciable genetic effect. Since that time there has been increasing evidence unearthed by scientists which would suggest that possibly one cannot now go quite that far. There may not be any evidence to show that the increase in radioactivity will have any appreciable genetic effect, but can one dogmatically say that the increase in radioactivity will not in fact have an appreciable genetic effect?
When the minister replies will he tell us whether or not there has been an expansion of the program under which the University of Toronto is measuring the levels of radiation in the human body and in various substances on the earth's surface? The minister will recall that in 1956 or 1957 the government of that day, with the support of the house, provided a substantial grant to the University of Toronto for the purpose of ensuring a greater measure of reliable information on radiation levels. It would be interesting to know if that work has been extended and if similar work is being done at other universities. I am sure there has been an expansion in this area but I am not familiar with the details. I know that the government has increased the sampling stations and it may be that in that process it has also embarked on an extension of the program through the universities.
This is a matter of the greatest importance. Through the mail we are receiving, there is increasing evidence of public concern over this matter. The government has taken the position as I think have all hon. members that there should be no future nuclear tests. The Secretary of State for External Affairs has been adamant in this particular. He has taken the position that there should be no tests with or without control. That is not the view of all countries, even some in the western world. I believe that the symptoms of the problem and the possible danger arising out of the detonations are such that we cannot be too vigilant in our effort to obtain the most accurate information. If there are grave doubts as to the genetic consequences, then it would seem to me we are in a position in which I would regard


it as immoral to embark on programs of nuclear test explosion, when there is doubt as to the potential danger for the human race.
We are presently engaged and rightly so in expending millions of dollars in research against cancer, one of the great enemies of mankind. We vigorously applaud the achievements of the medical scientists in gradually closing in on that enemy. It would be ironic, if in the face of the progress that has been made, in the light of the resources that are being expended towards that objective, we should through this other medium about which I have been speaking bring about increasing causes of cancer among human beings. I refer not only to cancer but to other forms of illness. Valuable work is being done at the University of Manitoba, I believe, in the examination of milk to ensure that it is free from radioactive forces. About a year ago an assessment was made of an increase in certain Canadian produced milk although it was not said to be a dangerous increase. Scientists hastened to advise us that there was no real danger from the milk tested. The mere fact that in that substance so widely used on this continent there was present even a slight increase was enough to cause great concern.
I need not go on. The minister is aware of this problem. I felt it was incumbent upon me to say these things not in criticism of the government, because it is doing everything I am sure that can reasonably be done in this matter, but to elicit a further statement from the minister.
May I make one further suggestion. The minister's. two statements were correct. In form they observed the objective language of his scientific and professional advisers. It is correct that the most careful use of language should be made in order to give as objective a portrayal as possible; but this language is not always easily understood. It may be, that because of the difficulty of understanding some of the scientific jargon, interpretations are placed on these statements which might be avoided, if greater care were taken not in cheap popularization of these reports but in the use of phrases and words that might give a greater appreciation to the public of the significance of the reports. There was a suggestion in the Ottawa Journal last night along these lines. It struck me that there was some merit in the editorial, and I merely echo it for the minister's consideration.


Jay Waldo Monteith: Mr. Chairman, when the hon. member finished up with that touch concerning the Ottawa Journal last night I presumed that he also read the accompanying editorial and took it to heart.


Paul Joseph James Martin: No, I did not read that one.


Jay Waldo Monteith: The accompanying editorial on the same page.


Paul Joseph James Martin: That was a
political editorial and I am keeping away from politics.


Jay Waldo Monteith: In that respect I would also recommend an article by Mr. Gordon Dewar which appeared on the front page of the second section of last night's Journal. He gave an excellent report of the situation as it had been explained to him not only by myself but by Dr. Bird of my department.
First of all, I cannot help agreeing with the hon. member for Essex East that this matter is of the greatest importance and concern. Actually it is a very technical subject, one which I am afraid none of us has completely mastered. To make any statement on this without ample preparation and discussion with my officials is something I would hesitate to do. It is of too much concern to the people and to us in the department to make any statement which has not been a considered one.
In answer to some of the questions I think it is safe to say that Mr. Macleod's words still hold true, to as great an extent as we know. The University of Toronto and other universities have been working in this field, yes, but as to details I am afraid I do not have them at the moment.
I am deeply concerned over this matter. First of all, I think I should say that we said back in 1958 and 1959 that the October, 1958 tests caused a rise of strontium 90 in milk, which has since decreased. It had a significant effect on the air sampling. At that time I indicated that I wished to see the public fully informed and as a consequence this is the course we have been following. I would say that the department is very anxious to get all the information possible that is available in this field. We do not feel that the fall-out thus far has been sufficient to cause health damage. I said earlier that if it was very high over a lengthy period of time it might well cause a health hazard. I do not think I care to go any further.
When I started my remarks, Mr. Chairman, I indicated that this is a very technical subject. I would prefer to have a full discussion on it and give a prepared statement.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Does the minister propose to say anything about what is done under this item? There is an increase of $2,610,068. This is part of the civil defence program of the government. Does the minister wish to give us some indication of what is
Supply

Health and Welfare going to be done with the additional funds provided and what progress has been made in the program to date.


Jay Waldo Monteith: The explanation of the increase of $2,610,068 is that first of all emergency health services increased 59 per cent, or approximately $2.5 million, mainly owing to cash provision for the portable hospital and medical stockpile programs. Emergency welfare and training services remained at about the same level with the exception of the special requirements for radiological monitoring training equipment owing to the increase in the training program on radiation at Arnprior college and 10 mobile feeding units and five mobile clothing sorting units which will be used by the provinces for further testing and for training purposes.


Mr. Denis:: With the consent of the committee may I be permitted to revert to item 266. I do not want to make any argument but to get details of the amount paid by the federal government to each province since the inception of the Unemployment Assistance Act. I suppose the minister will produce it and have it printed in Hansard.


An hon. Member:: Order paper.


Jay Waldo Monteith: I shall be very glad to present that information at any time. I do not need to have the question put on the order paper. I shall be glad to send the information to the hon. member but I should like to point out that the item has been passed.


Azellus Denis: This will be very interesting information for most hon. members. Will the minister be kind enough to have it printed in Hansard?


Jay Waldo Monteith: Yes; I have no objection.


Paul Joseph James Martin: When I spoke a moment ago I did not have before me several statements to which I made reference. I now have them and I believe it is necessary to bring them to the attention of the minister. For instance I find in the Montreal Gazette of November 17, 1959 the following:
Dr. J. Gordin Kaplan, associate professor of physiology at Dalhousie University, told a public meeting of the Canadian committee for the control of radiation hazards at the McGill physical sciences centre that deception has been carried out by the use of false comparisons, half truths, silent misrepresentation and "deliberate, wilful distortion."
I am not subscribing to that, of course, but simply pointing out what this gentleman has said. He goes on to accuse some United States and Canadian government agencies and spokesmen of deliberately and systematically

Supply-Health and Welfare deceiving the public on the true facts about radioactive fall-out on this continent. The article goes on to say:
He said he is convinced that the level of strontium 90 in North America is at the danger point, "that further nuclear test explosions will, in a matter of a few years, elevate the strontium 90 concentrations in children to levels known to cause fatal bone cancers in dogs."
Then there are other statements. For instance, in the Globe and Mail of March 2, I960, there is a statement attributed to Dr. George Dion, dean of agriculture and viceprincipal at Macdonald college. Speaking to the central Ontario branch of the agricultural institute of Canada, he said, as quoted:
The Department of National Health and Welfare says there is no need to worry. I say we simply do not know. There is no basis for these false reassurances. In Canada the numbers would be small, perhaps 35 per year, but still we must be concerned.
Those are two statements about the matter. I have another one here but the two are sufficient to indicate the disparity of opinion in our own country. One can also refer, of course, to many other statements made outside our country, but I believe that the minister should comment on the two statements to which I have referred.


Jay Waldo Monteith: Very briefly, first of all I should like to emphasize again our concern about this whole subject. Then I should like to say that we have never suppressed any information and we have never given any false reassurances.


William Moore Benidickson: I am sure the minister heard on the national radio news broadcast this morning, as many of us did, the indication that in Ontario at least some technical person would make known each day the result of a daily test of radioactive fall-out. I am concerned whether or not this information will come from an agency of the federal government or will it come from an independent university in Ontario or from a provincial government source?
In a serious debate on civil defence recently some cynicism was expressed about the divided type of government under our federal system which might involve some buck passing with the result that we might not have a complete grasp of a serious situation such as that about which we are now talking. Is this testing to which I have alluded and about which I heard this morning on the radio conducted by someone employed by the minister's department or is it done by the province?


Jay Waldo Monteith: The department of health of Ontario.


William Moore Benidickson: If the activity is divided under our federal system, what is the relationship between the federal and provincial governments with respect to this so vital matter of radioactive fall-out testing?


Jay Waldo Monteith: Our department has been making these tests for some years now and my understanding is that quite recently the province of Ontario undertook to set up its own system of testing. I do know that the situation is being discussed interdepartmentally with the Ontario department of health. We are discussing the matter because we are concerned about the more general situation.


Mr. McMillan:: I should like to ask the minister whether the booklet "Eleven Steps to Survival" was prepared under this item?


Jay Waldo Monteith: No, that is under the emergency measures organization.


Mr. Marlin (Essex Easl):: I think the minister's statement will receive attention. While the danger must be appreciated, we do not want to overstate the case or cause unnecessary fear, but does the minister not think it might be useful if he were to give the house some statement as to the existing levels of radioactivity that flow from traditional sources such as the normal use of X-ray which we have been using now for over 50 years? It is suggested now that more careful use is being made of X-ray because of the radioactivity that flows therefrom. Can the minister tell us whether or not the department has been able to eliminate the use of the fluoroscope which was used by so many retail establishments in the sale of shoes and from which there flowed a surprising amount of radioactivity? I think the best opinion suggests that more radioactivity comes from this source than the other, not that the other is not serious, or that we must not be on our guard. If we had this further statement the whole picture would be placed before us in the proper perspective.


Jay Waldo Monteith: Mr. Chairman, officials of our department have discussed this whole matter with the radiologists as a body. We have made recommendations about the use of fluoroscopes in the sale of shoes from the point of view of trying to see that there is no unnecessary use of these things. Certainly we appreciate that there is radioactivity from some of these sources and we have taken the stand that these devices should never be used unnecessarily.


Murdo William Martin: Perhaps I have not made myself clear. I think we will all agree that there should be no unnecessary

use of radioactive producing instruments, but can the minister not give some indication of the proportions of radioactivity consequent upon known and traditional uses compared with the radioactivity which flows from nuclear test explosions? I have mentioned shoe fitting fluoroscopes, dental and medical X-rays and the like. Can we not say that there is a much greater amount of known radiation from these instruments and sources than there is from the other about which we have, understandably and properly, such concern?


Jay Waldo Monteith: I do not have with me the statements that I made to the house prior to this more recent increase in radioactivity. However, thinking back to 1959 I am quite sure that there was considered to be more radioactivity from these common uses than there was in the fall-out of strontium 90.


William Hector McMillan: Following up my earlier question, I just wanted to ask the minister if his department was not consulted in the publication of the booklet, "Eleven Steps to Survival"? I think this booklet should be given a wide distribution. I have heard some criticism of it here in this house by members, but it is some time since I have read it. It seems to me if my memory serves me correctly, too little attention was paid in that booklet to the protection against breathing of air containing highly concentrated radioactive fall-out. I know from reading the newspapers considerable attention is being paid, for instance to the making of masks in the United States and in Great Britain. I do not believe there was any reference to that in the booklet.


Jay Waldo Monteith: As I mentioned earlier, this booklet was prepared by the emergency measures organization, but undoubtedly in consultation with the department.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
The Deputy Chairman:: This completes the estimates of the Department of National Health and Welfare. We will now consider the estimates of the Department of National Revenue.
DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL REVENUE Customs and excise divisions-
272. General administration, $5,278,399.


Hon. George C. Nowlan (Minister of National Revenue):: Mr. Chairman, I will speak very briefly on the estimates of this department which, as the committee knows, are divided into two branches, customs and excise and taxation. The votes which we are now
Supply-National Revenue considering deal with customs and excise. There has been a slight fall-off in revenues from import duties during the past years and from sales taxes. This was off-set, to some extent, by increased collections from other excise taxes on imported and domestic manufactured goods as well as from excise taxes on alcohol and tobacco.
During 1960 there were 9,351,000 foreign automobiles which entered Canada. This is one phase of the department's activity. During this same period there were 9,291,000 Canadian vehicles returning to Canada, an increase of 376,000 vehicles in the year. This gives some indication of the tremendous expansion of motor vehicle traffic in this country.
Coming to the estimates themselves, Mr. Chairman, the estimates for this division have increased this year by $1,142,198 over last year. The record which we have established in one respect has been dissipated. However, I want to point out to the committee that 87 per cent of this increase results from the general, over-all increase in salaries which was authorized by the house some time ago. I should like to point out also that the division has managed to reduce its personnel establishment by eight positions, even though it has been necessary at the same time to provide for 20 additional auditors as well as 58 additional positions for the inland sufferance warehouses which we have at Toronto and Montreal. Considering the increases essential in these quarters, therefore, and the over-all decrease of eight, I think this reflects upon the department in a satisfactory manner. I would hope the committee would agree with that as an indication of the efficiency of this division.
Apart from salaries, which make up over 84 per cent of the total estimates for this division, there was an increase in the estimates for postage, telegrams, travelling expenses and so on. This increase is directly related to the need for more audit and investigational staffs in the field and to the general growth of business in this particular division of the department's operations. This is a very brief survey of the department's activities but I hope the committee will accept it as adequate. I would be glad to answer any questions to the best of my ability or give further explanations as they are required by the committee.


Mr. Richard (Ottawa East):: I want to bring to the attention of the minister a situation which exists in the sales and excise branch which is causing wholesalers a considerable amount of trouble and unnecessary expense. Producers enjoy the privilege of purchasing parts for the repair of machinery used in

Supply-National Revenue production of goods exempt from sales tax simply by making the following declaration on their purchase order:
We hereby certify that the goods purchased and/or imported hereby are to be used directly in the process or manufacture or production of goods.
This privilege is appreciated by producers. However, unlicensed wholesalers are considerably disturbed because they have to purchase goods from suppliers, pay the sales tax and then file a claim later. This is most unfair to wholesalers, and all this trouble could be avoided if the Department of National Revenue would grant the wholesalers permission to use a certificate similar to that which is used by producers to purchase goods from suppliers to fill orders received from producers exempt of sales tax.
I would recommend, therefore, that the regulations be amended to give the same privileges to wholesalers that producers enjoy. I would request also that no one be permitted to make the following declaration on purchase orders without first having obtained approval from the department, together with a certificate number:
We hereby certify that the goods purchased and/or imported hereby are to be used directly in the process or manufacture or production of goods.
If this were done, wholesalers could accept orders and supply the goods exempt of sales tax. At the moment, unlicensed wholesalers receive orders from certain producers who certify that the goods are to be used in production. Some of these producers are not familiar with the regulations and make the aforementioned declaration. The wholesalers accept and execute the order exempt of sales tax, after which they file a claim against the department since the goods were purchased tax included. After verification by the department, some of these claims are rejected. The wholesaler must then send an additional debit note to the producer, sometimes several months after the goods have been supplied. The producer wonders why he gets an additional debit note, enters into discussion with the wholesaler, and quite often refuses to pay because he is under the impression he is entitled to obtain goods exempt of sales tax. In the event such a declaration is erroneously used by a producer, the responsibility is on the wholesaler instead of the department.
In order to avoid this situation, a producer should apply to the department for permission to use the certificate and, upon his application being approved, a serial number should be allotted. Then, the wholesalers would be sure their customers were really entitled to purchase goods exempt of sales

tax. I hope the minister will take this matter up with his officials because I have had a great number of representations from wholesalers and I think the matter is vital to them.


William Hector McMillan: I should like to bring item 709a of the Customs Tariff to the attention of the minister at this time. Under this item Canadian-made goods can be sent abroad, for example to the United States, and can be admitted duty free on re-entry to Canada within five years provided, among other things, that from the time of the exportation they have not been enhanced in value, improved in condition by the process of manufacture, combined with another article, or treated in some other way.
Otherwise the appropriate duty in full would apply on the re-entry of Canadian goods. I understand that under this section Canadian tires can be sent to the United States and be imported free of duty on new United States trucks and automobiles that are being imported. The words "combined with any other article abroad" preclude expensive Canadian equipment from receiving the minimum of work on it in the United States to combine it for example, with a duty free tractor as an expensive accessory and then being admitted duty free into Canada. The full import duty would then apply because the expensive Canadian equipment had been mounted on a tractor in the United States. If this assembling of equipment was allowed in the United States to some limited degree our working men would have more work and the Canadian would get his finished equipment, in the case that I have in mind, $133 per unit more cheaply.
I can explain this matter by being more explicit in connection with a company. There is, for instance, a John Deere works in Welland under very enterprising and successful management. Their primary product has been farm equipment. It is a subsidiary of the John Deere Company of the United States. They have facilities to manufacture approximately double their present production. At the present time 70 per cent of their production goes to the United States, mostly to New York state and other northeastern states. There is no duty on farm equipment going into the United States or coming into Canada. In the United States this particular company has been diversifying into industrial equipment in recent years. One of their farm equipment plants in the United States has been converted into an industrial equipment plant and facilities have been completed in the United States to turn one of these plants into a tractor plant for the industrial trade.

The Canadian customer has to pay duty on the industrial equipment admitted from the United States but not on the tractor. Two years ago the Canadian plant started to make bulldozers and they sold them in Canada at the same dollar price as that at which they were sold in the United States. The Canadian importer saved the duty. This company is now prepared to spend $40,000 in order to tool up their plant in Welland to make front end loaders; I refer to front end loaders on tractors. They started to do this some time ago but when they became acquainted with item 709a in the tariff act, they were obliged to discontinue it.
These loaders are mounted on crawler tractors in the United States and are imported and the Canadian importer pays duty on them. He pays duty just on the loader. There are approximately $1,500,000 worth of these loaders sold in Canada by this particular company, $1 million worth of them in eastern Canada and about $500,000 worth of them in western Canada.
The company had plans to bring the tractors to Welland for two thirds of their production and to mount Canadian made loaders in Welland. There would be no problem here. They assert that they can make this loader in Welland as cheaply as they can make it in the United States and that the whole unit will sell for the same dollar price in Canada as that in the United States, and that the Canadian buyer would save $133 per unit. The saving, of course, would be in the duty alone.
It is not, however, economical for this company to bring their tractors to Welland, to mount these front end loaders on those tractors there and then ship them to the United States as this would involve extra freight of from $100 to $150, depending on the place to which they were destined in western Canada. The company has no plant in western Canada and it would not pay them to set up the staff and rather expensive equipment for the small volume of business in that part of Canada. If the Canadian equipment could be shipped to the tractor plant in Iowa for their western Canada requirements and then admitted to Canada duty free, the western importers would save $100 as the only extra expense would be the shipping of these particular machines from Welland to Dubuque, Iowa, where they would be mounted on tractors.
As I see it, this company has $1,500,000 worth of business anyhow in Canada in respect of front end loaders. They ship them in from their United States plant and Canadians pay the duty now. Last year I believe Canadian importers paid upwards of $100,000
Supply-National Revenue duty on these particular American made machines. If there were a little bit more flexibility in respect of item 709a so that Canadian manufactured products could be readmitted to Canada, duty free with a maximum allowable amount of work, on them, I think it would help us a great deal with regard to employment here in our country.
The efficient and energetic president at Welland, Mr. D. Brown, obtained permission from his home plant to go ahead with this new manufacture. As I said, he started to tool up and was obliged to discontinue because of section 709a, of which he was not aware. He assumed that these particular machines would be admitted into Canada in much the same way as tires are admitted duty free when they are on United States made trucks and United States made automobiles. If it were possible to go ahead with this project in Canada, they would employ 35 to 40 men steadily on this work. It would provide extra business in Canada. It would help our secondary industries that would be supplying steel. Not only would that be the case, but it would save our importers, on the present basis, upwards of $100,000 in respect of duty. I should like to hear from the minister on this point. I intend to discuss this when the estimates of the Department of Finance are being considered.


The Acting Chairman (Mr. MacEwan):: Shall vote 272 carry?


George Clyde Nowlan: If there are any other questions to be asked, I think they might be asked at the same time. I should like not to be obliged to rise too often in order to deal with them.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I can save the minister time by asking one simple question. After the minister has replied to the other points raised, I think it would be interesting to the committee if he would tell us briefly just precisely what use he has made of the powers parliament conferred on him in 1958?


George Clyde Nowlan: Are there any other interesting philosophical questions to be raised about the history of the last three years?


William Moore Benidickson: If we are getting into that arena, Mr. Chairman, I wish to raise a matter that relates in a close way to this subject. The Minister of National Revenue is of course very familiar with the measures introduced on December 20, 1960 in what was called the baby budget of the Minister of Finance, under which certain resolutions were presented to this house which would amend the Customs Tariff. In particular, to be brief, they concerned amendments to the class or kind of goods which would be interpreted as made or not made in Canada. In consequence

Supply-National Revenue they would have, under the minister's direction, either a high or a low rate of tariff imposed against them.
It has always been my understanding that from the hour that a budget is introduced, the Department of National Revenue automatically carries into force in its administration the decisions announced on budget night. It is true that we have had some legislative difficulty with respect to some of these items. For example, the other place had not approved, as late as six months after the baby budget was introduced, certain of the proposals of the Minister of Finance. As I say, it has always been my understanding that it is obligatory for the officials of the Department of National Revenue, on the day following the budget, irrespective of whether or not parliament has actually completed the statutory approval, to consider what the Minister of Finance announced in his budget proposals as the law of the land.
I read with some surprise after we recessed during part of July and all of August that the statement had been made that, notwithstanding what the Minister of Finance proposed in his baby budget on December 20, 1960, the officials of the Department of National Revenue had in no instance adhered to the new policy that was part and parcel of what the Minister of Finance proposed in that baby budget.
Whether I agree with it or not, I find this rather surprising. I thought it was completely contradictory of all our practices in the past. I understood that the Minister of National Revenue, associated with the Minister of Finance and the officials of the Department of National Revenue, after a budget proposal is made immediately carries out that policy from the time of the announcement, irrespective of whether or not both houses of parliament have approved of the policy.


George Clyde Nowlan: Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Ottawa East raised a question with respect to the administration of the sales tax and its collection as between producers and wholesalers. This is a suggestion which has previously been studied by the department. The whole procedure of the collection of these taxes is under review, of course, at all times. I listened with interest to the suggestion of the hon. member and I can assure him through you, Mr. Chairman, that the department will again take a very close look at this matter and see if in any way and to what extent we might adopt the suggestion proposed by him.
The hon. member for Welland spoke at some length about a problem which is of great interest to him and his constituents and which is of course of interest to Canadians generally; that is, providing the maximum


degree of employment in Canada for Canadians and the working out, in so far as is practical and in so far as the law allows from time to time, co-operation between the productive facilities of the United States and Canada so as to provide maximum employment in Canada.
There are various cases where this has been done to a greater or lesser degree, but the hon. member is referring primarily and specifically to item 709a of the Customs Tariff Act. Of course, whatever my sympathies or feelings may be with respect to this matter, the fact remains that item 709a is part of a taxation statute, and that of course falls within the purview of the Minister of Finance rather than that of the Minister of National Revenue.
It is my responsibility to administer the law as parliament enacts it. Whatever merit there may be in the hon. member's suggestion

and I am not saying there may not be considerable merit in it-it is a matter that parliament must consider on the recommendation of the Minister of Finance, as a fiscal measure. I would hope that when the estimates of the Department of Finance are before the committee-if they have not already been concluded because I am not too sure what progress has been made as I have not been too closely in touch with matters- the hon. member will raise this matter with the Minister of Finance. I can assure him that as far as our department is concerned we will co-operate in every way possible to facilitate the maximum amount of employment for any Canadian industry within the law of this country.
The hon. member for Kenora-Rainy River suggested-and I think correctly-that following the baby budget the departmental officials, or the minister, did not start making decisions with respect to class or kind as set forth in the budget. He suggested this was contrary to the practice which had been followed by the department in former years.
I think there is some misunderstanding here. I am told by officials, and I believe this to be the case, that when the Minister of Finance brings down his budget, any tax changes, reductions or increases automatically come into effect that night regardless of the fact that parliament has not yet approved of them. That is the only way in which we can administer the tax laws of this country, because if there were a long period of time between the announcement of the imposition of a tax or the reduction of a tax business would come to a stop or would be accelerated in certain fields, and so on.
However, I am told this does not apply to legislative changes in principles or in practice, as distinguished from rates. In the

budget speech of the Minister of Finance there were proposals authorizing the minister, then empowered by parliament, to enlarge the scope of the class or kind legislation. Very briefly I may say that was it.
We know that legislation was debated here and it was debated elsewhere. The legislation has not yet received the consent of the Governor General, as I understand it, although I must say that I have received this particular information since I came back. Pending the enactment of this legislation the departmental officials have no authority or power to carry out, nor will they carry out, the principles set forth there with respect to class or kind because they have not the legislative power to do so.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
William Moore Benidickson: Five o'clock.


George Clyde Nowlan: Mr. Chairman, I wonder whether with the consent of the house it would be possible to proceed with the estimates? Perhaps I should make this request when the Speaker is in the chair.


Gordon Campbell Chown: If the minister would kindly make his request when the Speaker is in the chair, he can give it consideration.
Progress reported.



PRIVATE BILLS

George Clyde Nowlan: Mr. Speaker, I should like to request the consent of the house to move that we revert to committee of supply and continue consideration of the estimates which were before it before progress was reported.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, that will be quite agreeable to us. I should like the minister to know, however, that this represents a genuine personal sacrifice because I understand that an extremely important bill I have been most anxious to bring before the house for many months would have come up if we had not been so acquiescent.


George Clyde Nowlan: I thank the hon. gentleman for his courtesy and acquiescence.


Mr. Frank Howard (Skeena):: I will not be so effusive about it. There is no disagreement here, Mr. Speaker.


John Whitney Pickersgill: But then, it is not the hon. member's bill.


Mr. Speaker:: I understand that the minister has requested and been accorded unanimous consent to waive the hour devoted to private and public bills in order that the house might
Supply-National Revenue proceed with the business interrupted at 5 o'clock. Is it the pleasure of the house to accord consent?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Chown in the chair.
DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL REVENUE Customs and excise division-
272. General administration, $5,278,399.


William Moore Benidickson: Mr. Chairman, I am curious as is the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate with respect to the administrative action that might have been taken as a result of the changes made in the customs tariff in July or August of 1958. On a former occasion-I think last year when dealing with the estimates-I asked the minister what steps had been taken as a result of the amendments passed in 1958 which altered our law particularly with respect to dumping duties. Perhaps the minister could indicate what administrative decisions have been made by him since that time.
Under protest the minister received discretionary powers as a result of the 1958 amendments. Is he able to tell us what classes of goods have been dealt with since that time under administrative rulings?


George Clyde Nowlan: I regret, Mr. Chairman, that I do not have clearly in mind what it is the hon. member has reference to but may I point out that the amendments passed in 1958 were fairly substantial and that the department has been administering them constantly since that time. Various rulings and steps have been taken. At one point I did say that no specific action had been taken but to tell the truth I have now forgotten what it was to which I was referring.


William Moore Benidickson: I think reference was made to sections 39, 40 and 41 of the act. I can readily put a question on the order paper in order to secure full details.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, we all recognize the difficulties under which the minister is labouring and we do not wish to be difficult about this. However, the minister did considerable boasting at one time about the fact that having secured this power, which he told us in 1958 was urgent to the well being of the country, he had never used it but simply held it as a club over the heads of possible importers and kept out goods without any use of it. Surely if the minister has never used the anti-dumping legislation it should not take long to say so.

Supply-National Revenue If he has used it he ought to have in mind in a general way precisely what kind of use has been made of it.


George Clyde Nowlan: Mr. Chairman, I never boast. I merely make simple assertions of fact. I indignantly deny the suggestion that there was any boasting on the part of the minister. I do remember that at one time I said that I had not exercised certain authority or done certain things under the act. At that time as the hon. member well knew, I was referring to specific powers under the legislation.
Certainly those amendments were essential and under them we have exercised various powers. The hon. member and others said they would operate to the detriment of Canada, would result in tariffs as high as Haman's gallows, and engaged in other speculative comments none of which has been justified by the record.
I remember that I did refer to the section authorizing us to deal with fixed values on fruit and vegetables coming in when the value was below the average for the three year period. When I made that statement we had not taken any action under that particular item. During my recent absence from the office that section has been brought into effect and one declaration was made thereunder, I believe.


William Moore Benidickson: Does that relate to
potatoes?


George Clyde Nowlan: Yes. That is the only step we have taken under that item. There was another matter of values to which I referred at that time. I have forgotten for the moment what it was we were dealing with.
We have taken various steps under section 38 which was amended at that time. There have been questions of having a third-country valuation where goods were coming from a country without a free economy. With respect to the proposed importation of certain goods, as the committee knows, we ordinarily accept the value of the country if it has a free market economy. Where a country has not a free market economy, it is occasionally necessary for the minister to make certain decisions and rulings establishing a third country market value as closely as possible approximating the circumstances in the country of origin. I have done that on several occasions with respect to certain proposed importations of gasoline, certain proposed importations of automobiles, pig iron, textiles and other commodities from countries without a free economy. These come to my mind at once and there may have been others.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
42. Salaries and other expenses, $331,170.
John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, I assume the minister will have something to say on the subject.


George Clyde Nowlan: It was not my intention to make any extended remarks. There are various activities of the board to which I could refer. I could deal with the number of hearings the board has held, the amendments to the regulations and applications the board has considered but from time to time these matters have been fairly well reported in the press. The estimates themselves indicate an increase of $32,750 over the amount provided to the board last year. This increase is due almost entirely to the necessity to increase the amount provided for salaries of full-time members of the staff as a result of the general salary revision passed last summer and fall. Just as in the Department of National Revenue, Mr. Chairman, the general salary revision has resulted in some increase in the costs of the operation although there has been no increase in the staff.
In most other objects of expenditure there has been a decrease in the amounts provided this year from last year. That covers the salient features of the board's operations. If there are any questions which the committee wishes me to deal with I shall try to do so.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I wish to make a few observations about an interim decision which was made by the board of broadcast governors after what was described in the press as a closed hearing during recess, on which the board gave a public statement on August 28, about which I made some inquiries of the minister before I had actually seen the statement, and when I had seen only references to it in the press. To make my observations intelligible perhaps I should read the whole of this public announcement made by the board of broadcast governors on August 28 of this year:
At its meeting on Thursday, August 24, the board discussed with representatives of Baton Aldred Rogers Broadcasting Limited, licencee of station CFTO-TV, Toronto, an application passed to the board by the Minister of Transport under section 103(3) of the general regulations pursuant to the Radio Act.
In the highly competitive Toronto market the performance of CFTO-TV compares well with other television stations recently licensed. The programs offered by the station have received commendable audience acceptance, and revenues have met expectations.
I draw the attention of the committee and particularly of the minister to the phrase "and revenues have met expectations" because I think it should be compared with

something I am going to read a little later from these gentlemen. I continue:
The licencee has fully lived up to the commitments made to the board in the provision of facilities and the employment of staff-
I hope the minister is listening to this as well because I intend to read some of these commitments that were made, and if this statement can be reconciled with the statements made by these people to the board at the time of making their application, I have no understanding of the English language.
I go on:
-indeed, expenditures on these and on other operating items, have considerably exceeded the financial commitments of the station.
Whatever that means I do not profess to know.
Additional capital is required-
That is interesting too, as will be seen from something else I intend to read later from the application of these people for this licence.
-and the station should not be unnecessarily delayed-
Mind you, this station came into operation only on January 1 of this year.
-in proceeding with required adjustments.
At the time it came into operation everything was perfectly satisfactory for years ahead. They indeed forecast precisely what their profits would be after a certain period and what their losses would be before that period. This is an extraordinary comment on that forecast.
The board is therefore, announcing the recommendation which has been forwarded to the Minister of Transport.
The board recommends that approval of this application be deferred to provide the applicant an opportunity to receive offers from experienced Canadian broadcasting interests on terms and conditions substantially as favourable to the station as the offer which the applicant has received from the American Broadcasting-Paramount Theatres Incorporated. The board should be advised by noon on September 25-
Which is next Monday.
-of all offers made. If in the opinion of the board, no acceptable offer as defined above has been received by noon on Monday, September 25, the board will at that time recommend the approval of the present application for the transfer of shares. If, in the opinion of the board, an acceptable offer has been received, the board will not recommend the present application and will advise the applicant to submit a new application if he so desires.
Now, sir, in the light of the astounding announcement that apparently something like a quarter of the interest in this Canadian station, which made a particular boast of its Canadian character at the time it made its application, was to be sold to American interests, one should read the application made by the applicant who was successful in getting
Supply-C.B.C.
this licence. I, of course, do not intend to read the whole of it but I should like to read certain selected portions of it, sir, and perhaps make a few comments about it. I have in my hands the transcript of the public hearing held by the B.B.G. on March 14-21, 1960, in the oak room, union station building, Toronto. I turn to page 424. The beginning of the presentation was made on March 17, 1960 by Mr. E. A. Goodman, who I assume was a solicitor representing the applicants. I wish to read from page 425 and a little from 426 a few of the observations he made about the applicant. He cited 12 factors and said:
There can be no doubt that all of the preceding 12 factors must be regarded in the light of this final and all-embracing one.
Now relating this important factor to this hearing, it becomes clear that for the proposed Toronto station to be successful in this very highly competitive area, it is necessary that the licensee possess a wide and varied experience in every field important to television broadcasting, together with the ability to use this experience creatively and imaginatively.
I feel that our presentation this morning will substantiate that Baton Aldred Rogers Limited possesses the financial resources-
I ask the minister to note this:
-possesses the financial resources, the material resources, but above all, the human resources that fully qualify them for the privilege and responsibility that the holding of this public franchise entails.
Now the presentation will take place in four phases. The first phase covers the human aspect, it deals with the people presently associated with or to be employed by this company; the second phase covers the financial aspect, that is the capital that is available from its expenditure; the third phase sets forth the technical details,-
I am not going to go on with that.
-and the fourth and final phase, which is a culmination of everything else, covers programming.
The first and second are the two I am going to deal with, and I am going to read a few points relative to the point made. On page 427 we find the following:
Now I turn to the first phase of our presentation, the human aspect. The people responsible for its management are the most important factor in any company. This is particularly true when you are in a creative field like television concerned with education, the dissemination of information and the presentation of entertainment.
Then, he goes on to describe very briefly who these people are. The principal one is Mr. John Bassett, who is the chairman of the board of the company and who has a connection also, of course, with a newspaper known as the Toronto Telegram. He explained Mr. Bassett's connection with the Telegram and various other philanthropic activities- I use that term advisedly. Then, he went on to say:
Mr. Bassett, however, possesses qualities which are even more important to the operation of the

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proposed station than his newspaper and executive experience. These are a deep understanding of and a high regard for his fellow men.
I am sure, sir, that the board was particularly touched by that observation. Mr. Bassett was then given the task of presenting his colleagues. He pointed out how difficult it was going to be for this station to compete with the three stations in Buffalo and with the C.B.C. and to build up an audience with programs that were essentially Canadian in content. He saw the Toronto station as an anchor to the whole of private television broadcasting in Canada outside the national network. He said, as found on page 429:
It is our belief that none of these requirements will be met, nor will the job of building a station be successful, if the new television station is simply to be a carbon copy in concept and programming of the American stations which now come so strongly into this area.
I hope the minister has noted the words, "a carbon copy", since now they are proposing to turn the station over for all practical purposes to the American Broadcasting Company.
To meet these problems it has been necessary, we believe-
Will the minister note this particularly.
-to build a company in which each shareholder has a specific duty in management and in which each member of the management group has a definite responsibility and a particular contribution to make.
In other words, this was a package and the whole package had been very carefully put together to be the best broadcasting station in Canada.
This we have tried to do. We have no investors in the sense that there is absentee ownership.
That was one of the great things, "no investors in the sense that there is absentee ownership". Then he goes on to talk about the importance of the local character of the company and so on. As found on page 430, he said:
In order to achieve these objectives we believed that it was necessary to try to build a company where those responsible for management and direction would have an intimate and lively knowledge of the local conditions in Toronto...
Such, of course, as would obviously be possessed by the American Broadcasting Company. Then he goes on:
I am sure the members of the board have noted in our original brief that 51 per cent of the voting stock of Baton Aldred Rogers is controlled by the Toronto Telegram, although our financial participation in the profits which may be derived from this operation is limited to 40 per cent. In this way control of the company is vested with the Telegram, and I may say to the board this organization was done deliberately because it was our belief that responsibility and control go hand in hand.
I must say that that particular point made by Mr. Bassett seems to have been clearly

emphasized by some of the events that have taken place since, and if the minister wants any confirmation perhaps he might like to consult Mr. Aldred or some of the other people now being pushed out. Mr. Bassett went on to say on the next page:
... therefore, through mutual agreement among all the shareholders of Baton Aldred Rogers it has been decided to vest control with the Telegram as we believe this institution has developed over the years a recognized concept of Canadian public service. It is our belief that through this concept, plus the extra invaluable assistance that the newspaper can give us in designing our seven daily news broadcasts, we have followed the proper course and one which is designed to ensure both the ultimate success of the station and the development of television in Toronto on the broadest possible Canadian base.
Then, on page 432 he said:
The president of the company-
Who is no longer going to be there under this new set-up.
-Mr. Aldred, has a wealth of practical experience in all phases of broadcasting and he, of course, will devote his entire working time to Baton Aldred Rogers.
Then he has something to say about Mr. Foster Hewitt, Mr. Ted Rogers, Mr. Nathan-son and Mr. Purdy, the program director who is no longer program director. Then he goes on to point out how important to the whole scheme of this station Mr. Aldred and Mr. Purdy are. He says:
For this reason it is essential, we believe, that programming plans are completed on a sound basis before the station ever goes on the air. This Mr. Aldred and Mr. Purdy have done, and it is our belief that largely through their efforts we will be able to hold a great proportion of the new audience who are awaiting the advent of channel 9 in the Toronto area.
Mr. Bassett only took nine months or even less, actually about six months, to change his mind apparently about the merits of these gentlemen. Then he goes on to point out what a great job the station is going to do in the French language. I am not going to say anything about that. Perhaps it would be just as well not to, but I draw attention to this paragraph on page 435:
I have covered these points, Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen, to try and indicate that every shareholder of Baton Aldred Rogers and every member of our management group, as well as our board of directors, have been chosen specifically because of some particular talent and experience that we believe is essential for the development of a successful television station in Toronto.
Now they are going to be replaced, except Mr. Bassett, by the American Broadcasting Company. Then he goes on:
We recognize that there is certainly no place in Canada where a more competitive situation exists and, if this station is to be successful, not only commercially but as a means of developing among Canadian viewers an appreciation

of Canadian talent, Canadian programs and a greater understanding of Canadian events and the effect those events have on their own lives, then those who are charged with the responsibility of station management and development, we believe, must also be directly and personally concerned through ownership.
That ownership is now to be transferred to the American Broadcasting Company. Then there is a lot more in the same vein, quite a good deal of it in French, and then Mr. Bassett goes on to sum up and says, as found on page 440:
. .. the character of our company, we believe, is completely Canadian and essentially local.
Essentially local. The American Broadcasting Company.
I do not mean "local" in a narrow parochial sense.
Evidently not.
Indeed our program director, Mr. Purdy, as I have told you, has had a very broad experience in this field here, in the United Kingdom and in the United States.
Now he is apparently going to have more experience somewhere else.
Mr. Aldred, our president, is perhaps one of the best known men in television in North America.
He is also going to be one of the best known somewhere else than in Toronto.
But I do mean that this is a group of Toronto men who believe that a Toronto television station can only be successful in every sense of the word if those charged with the responsibility of management are extremely sensitive to the needs-
I do not think the board thought at that time that Mr. Bassett meant financial needs.
-the wishes and the aspirations of the viewing audience within our own area here.
Anything that could be more of a travesty than that in the face of the application which the board has now decided to grant, unless some philanthropic Canadian comes along to subsidize Mr. Bassett and leave him with 51 per cent control, it would be pretty hard to find. Then, listen to this:
We believe that the responsibility of management must be completely interwoven with the responsibility of ownership.
Does he still believe that? If he does, that means that the American Broadcasting Company is going to have a pretty big say in management. I repeat:
We believe that the responsibility of management must be completely interwoven with the responsibility of ownership so that the success or otherwise of this station will be reflected directly by the ability and effort of the individuals who hold these positions. Within our group of ownership and management we have built a team-.
I stress that word, sir, "a team".
-thoroughly experienced and trained in the whole field of mass communications as represented by newspapers, films, radio and television. This has been done deliberately because it is our belief that only this kind of team-
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I stress that, only this kind of team, and not one word about the American Broadcasting Company or Paramount Theatres.
-working together with a common interest in the public good, can ensure the ultimate success of this new television station.
I felt, then, that was really all I intended to read until I turned to page 513. Then, I did feel I should read the beginning of page 513 because, in a way, perhaps it is rather prophetic. I quote:


Mr.   Bassett@: Yes, Mr. Haig. You can conclude that. We have gone a good deal along the way, as you can see, by establishing a nucleus-
Then, in brackets and in capital letters I find this:
(All lights in building go out and the answer given by Mr. Bassett was not recorded).
Well, Mr. Bassett was not satisfied with just putting the lights out. He appeared again the next day and, in reply and in a very-condescending fashion indeed, he congratulated all the other applicants on the applications that they had made. One could make some comment on that, but I think it will be in everyone's mind so I will refrain from making it.
Then he said this, as reported at page 986:
We believe that the most important part of the character of Baton Aldred Rogers Broadcasting Limited is that all its shareholders have a direct responsibility in management, and that these shareholders, all Torontonians, came together deliberately because it was our belief that we had a specific contribution to make to the success of television in the Toronto area. The shareholders are all interwoven into management, and in this sense they have direct responsibility and there are no such things as absentee shareholders.
It almost looks as though Mr. Bassett was anticipating something and trying to guard against it even then. I continue the quotation:
Each of our directors has proven business and professional experience. We believe that this station, to be successful in such a competitive market, that executive ability and experience are required in addition to the direct experience of the creating and performing arts. Our board of directors, with every shareholder represented on it, and participating daily in the operation of this station, does have those requirements.
Then, a little later on, on the same page, I find this:
In our main presentation we dealt at length with the financial aspect of our proposed station. I don't wish to go into it again. I just wish to make the one observation. That after providing for our pre-operating losses and for what we think to be an adequate operating capital, we have provided for a cash contingency of $1 million to meet some of the difficulties which all the applicants have spoken about in the early days of operation ...
We have provided that there will be no repayment to shareholders at all in the first five years of our operation. We have provided for this financing from our own shareholders and without setting up through this company any bank loans.

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In other words, Mr. Bassett certainly gave the board every reason to feel that the financial basis of this company, the financial basis of this operation, was quite adequate. I am sure that the board, notwithstanding the pressures which one cannot help but feel were upon the board and about which I have had something to say on other occasions, would not have granted this licence if they had believed that six months later Mr. Bassett would be back telling them he was in financial difficulties, and telling them that this closely interwoven group that was going to make this the best Canadian television station had disintegrated for reasons which we do not know; that these great and talented Canadians no longer seemed to have the talent required and that in order to rescue this financially precarious operation the American Broadcasting Company would have to be brought in.
It is apparently true that the hearings were in private and all one can learn about what really went on is from reading what Mr. Bassett calls the competitive press in Toronto. I must say that after reading the different articles in the different Toronto newspapers one gets rather different views of what the real situation is. It does seem to me in the circumstances to be rather extraordinary, in view of the assurances given the board, that this hearing should have been held in private at all. What is more extraordinary than that is that the board would consider for one minute permitting this minority stock ownership to be transferred to these United States interests. If there was one thing that was made clearer than any other on both sides of the house, and by no one more eloquently than the present minister, it was that the whole purpose of public participation in broadcasting, public control and regulation of broadcasting, was to keep it Canadian. No one thinks that the American Broadcasting Company and Paramount Theatres are a group of philanthropists. If they are going into this operation, they are going into it to make money, and not just to make money out of the televising of their programs. No doubt, they hope to make money by selling their product to the station. It may well be that from a purely technical standpoint, they will have a better product to offer than the one made at home. But to have the home made product is the reason we have any public broadcasting in Canada at all.
It is precisely because we were afraid the whole market would have been taken by United States interests if there had not been public participation, that we have this public participation. I have never heard any Canadian who was not a socialist defend it on any other grounds. I have never defended

it on any other grounds. I think it would be far better, if we could have the assurance that the broadcasting would be Canadian, to have entirely private broadcasting. But regardless of party most of us in this country, from the days of the Aird report and the days when Mr. Bennett brought in the legislation to establish the radio commission and the days when Mr. Howe introduced the C.B.C., have felt that the only way we could have control over broadcasting in this country was to have public participation in it and pretty rigid public control. It is for this reason we have this participation and this control which, though it has varied a good deal in detail to meet new conditions, has been fundamentally the same ever since the parliament of this country enacted the first legislation in the early thirties.
I say, sir, that we recall only a few short months ago in 1960 when these applications were heard that there were nine applicants for the T.V. station in Toronto. Three of these applicants were closely associated with and almost indistinguishable from the three newspapers. I have said on several occasions that I thought the board should have rejected these applications out of hand from all three newspapers on the ground that where it was possible to have equally good operations unconnected with newspapers, that was to be preferred. I have also said that there are many places in Canada, and I could document these at length but I am not going to do so now, where there is no one except a newspaper or its publisher willing to risk money in the television field. Where that situation arises, people should not be denied television nor should the taxpayers be forced to build a station just because that condition exists.
However, this was not the condition in Toronto. There were six other applications and the board described the applications as all of excellent quality. There were six other applicants who could have been considered if these three applicants had been, as I maintain they should have been in the light of the debates that took place in parliament when the board of broadcast governors was set up, thrown out before the hearings were even held. Only the other six should have been considered. I am seeking, sir, not to go into the realm of rumour and speculation to which reference has been made or to refer to the exchange I had with the chairman of the board of broadcast governors in the special committee.
However this company may have obtained this licence in the first place, the fact is that it obtained it; and surely it should be expected either to live up to the terms under which it obtained that licence or to lose the licence and not to have a United

States company brought to the rescue. My suggestion is this, Mr. Chairman: If they cannot get suitable Canadian participants by the deadline on Monday I suggest that, far from approving this proposal, what the board should do is to call for new applications for that station and to apply to that station the provisions of the Canadian Broadcasting Act as it was prior to the recent broadcasting legislation which was put into effect and to say that the new applicant would be obliged to reimburse the existing owners for all their out-of-pocket expenditures properly depreciated so that they would not be robbed in any way.
However, here they have been given a piece of the public domain on representations-some of which I read-which they have clearly not lived up to and now it is proposed to allow a United States company-and I may say, a very reputable company-to come in and rescue them financially. We even read that it is far more than the stock that is being bought and that this company is also paying off their debts. I do not believe there are many Canadians who think for one minute that a company is going to do that sort of thing in order to have a minority interest as an investment in an outfit which claimed to be financially solvent when it made its application and which six months after going into operation has to be rescued financially in this way.
I say that this is a scandalous proposal made by the board of broadcast governors and that if they persist in this proposal Her Majesty's ministers should not entertain their recommendation for one instant as it would be utterly contrary to everything that they have professed to believe in, or everything that was professed by the minister when he introduced the legislation in 1958, and contrary to all the principles on which all of us have believed public broadcasting stood in this country.
I say that there might be another solution of this matter. There were these other six applicants. It might be that Mr. Bassett could now be satisfied with a minority interest and that one of these other applicants could take over a majority or controlling interest.


Gordon Campbell Chown: Order. I dislike interrupting the hon. member but I must advise him that his time has expired.


Some hon. Members:: Go ahead.


Gordon Campbell Chown: Would the committee give unanimous consent to permitting the hon. member to continue?


Mr. McGrath:: How much more time would the hon. member require?
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John Whitney Pickersgill: I would find it impossible to give an estimate. If there is not unanimous consent-something which, incidentally, we gave to have these estimates continued-I will take my seat.


Mr. Jones:: I think the question is a legitimate one. It is a quarter to six now and there might be a chance to reply. I think the hon. member is entitled to an answer to that question.


John Whitney Pickersgill: There either is or is not
unanimous consent. If there is unanimous consent, I will continue. If there is not unanimous consent, I will take my seat.


Gordon Campbell Chown: I thought I had unanimous consent until the question was asked. The question was not asked to protest against the continuation but rather to inquire how much more time would be consumed. This is something that the hon. member could not predict. However, in my opinion, he has the unanimous consent of the committee and he has the floor.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I was saying that there might be another solution of this problem. In view of all the circumstances I would not think that there would be any great likelihood of any new applicant arising apart from those who made applications in 1960. Knowing a little bit of subsequent history, I doubt that one of those applicants would be very apt to apply or, if he did so, that he would be very apt to qualify inasmuch as that gentleman has since gone to the United States, I believe, and has sought to accelerate his acceptance as a United States citizen. But let us consider certain other applicants.
There is one very distinguished applicant who is not a political friend of mine. At least he was closely associated with one of the applications. I refer to Mr. Sedgwick. Mr. Sedgwick and his family have had a long experience in the broadcasting business. As I say, while I do not share his political views, I have a good deal of respect for his capacities in many directions. I cannot imagine Mr. Sedgwick or his associates coming along for one minute and accepting this suggestion of the B.B.G. that they should accept a minority interest in the station, with Mr. John Bassett, who has already fired all his previous associates, standing there with a club ready to club him. I would not think that any Canadian applicant would come in under those terms. However, I suggest that those are not the only terms.
I suggest that this is an applicant who has failed to carry out his undertaking, and who has made a mess of this thing financially. I am not saying anything about its programs.

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I do not know anything about them. I do not happen to live in Toronto. To the best of my knowledge, I have never seen any of its broadcasts. They may be just as good as the B.B.G. said they were. I hope they are. But what I am saying is that they appear to have made a financial mess of this venture. I think they were quite right in saying that it would be a tough problem to run a private television station in this highly competitive market. However, because they have shown that they are not competent to do it effectively, I say that is no reason why, because some Canadian is not, for a minority interest, ready to come in and bail them out, we should allow Americans to do it, particularly the American Broadcasting Company.
One cannot help but feel that this is a backdoor method of establishing what in effect is bound increasingly to become merely another affiliate, perhaps with a little arrangement here and there to meet the exigencies of the laws and regulations, of one of the United States chains. If that is what we had wanted for our private stations in Canada, we would not need to be spending any money on the board of broadcast governors or on the C.B.C.
I say that this proposition is something that should simply be rejected. I think it should have been rejected out of hand by the board of broadcast governors. I cannot understand what possible defence there can be for their decision. I do not expect the minister to defend their decision. The minister has pointed out over and over again that he does not seek to influence their decisions. However, that does not exempt them from the criticism of this parliament to which they are responsible. It does not, of course, remove from us our right to criticize their conduct in this particular, as I am doing now.
The board of broadcast governors, of course, cannot make the final decision about this matter. All they can do is to make a recommendation. The final decision must be made by the governor in council. Hence the government itself cannot escape its responsibility in this matter and it should not seek to do so. It seems to me that we in this parliament should now indicate our views about this transaction so that the board of broadcast governors may be aware of them, in the hope that some different solution to this problem may be found.


Gordon Campbell Chown: Shall vote 42 carry?


Mr. Robichaud:: Before this vote carries, Mr. Chairman, possibly the minister could give the information which was asked for and which he said he would give me at a later date, when I asked him a question about the application of the Rimouski station for the

erection of a satellite station to serve Madawaska and Victoria counties in New Brunswick.
I understand that the board of broadcast governors has approved the application, which was heard on February 24 of this year. That is almost seven months ago. The population of Madawaska and Victoria are still awaiting the service for which they have been asking for many months. I understand that the reason for the delay is that the Department of Transport has not granted the licence which has been approved by the board of broadcast governors. I wonder whether the minister would comment on this application.


George Clyde Nowlan: Mr. Chairman, the facts of this situation are that the order in council has been passed and it has been published. That was done several days ago. I have forgotten the exact date.
I did not deal with the arguments of the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate because, frankly, I doubt whether they are in order and I do not propose to become involved in a discussion about something which the board has considered and has adjourned to a future date.
If and when decisions are brought down and action is taken I think that would be the proper time to deal with the matter, but I do not think I should comment on it at the moment. In my opinion, as far as I am concerned this matter is sub judice and is something upon which I should not comment at all.
I do not want to be taken as agreeing with many of the statements which have been made, despite the fact that they attracted the hilarity of representatives of certain newspapers which apparently appreciated them. I must say it is the greatest tribute that could be paid to the board of broadcast governors- I am not assuming, but I am hoping this is the conclusion of this debate-that after a year of strenuous activity in which they have had so much responsibility, criticism has centred on this one situation, which is something that has not yet been finalized.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, I think perhaps the minister would have been wiser not to have offered the temptation which he offered in his last sentence or two, because I have a whole file of things, some of which I raised at the committee, that I would like to say about the work of the board of broadcast governors. However, I recognize that there will be plenty of time to do this in another session, which I hope will not be the longest session in the history of the Canadian parliament since confederation.


George Clyde Nowlan: You will make this a shorter one if we can get through this item.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I advise the minister that if he wants to get through this item he should listen to what I am saying. I was saying, when my sentence was cut in two by the minister's intervention, that I deliberately did not intend to mention any other matter because it did not seem to me there was any other matter that was so urgent that it could not be considered at what 1 feel would be a more opportune time.
However, I did feel that this matter, since apparently it is going to be settled on Monday next, is so urgent that any opposition member of this house, and indeed any hon. member of this house feeling as I do, would have been derelict in his duty not to see that it was aired. I also agree with the minister, that in the position in which he finds himself, as a member of the cabinet which will sooner or later have to reach a final determination about the matter-which, as he properly says, is not yet final-he has taken the right course in making no comment upon my observations.
I must say that I was rather encouraged the other day, and I noticed the Telegram was correspondingly discouraged, when the minister suggested that when I in very brief form expressed the same sentiments I was probably expressing sentiments widely held throughout the house.
I am not going to seek a denial or anything else from the minister, but I should like to go on believing that the views I have expressed are not very different from the real views of the Minister of National Revenue.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
43.	Grant in respect of the net operating requirements of the radio and television services, $70,418,000.
John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, I assume from the indications which have been given to the house by the Minister of Veterans Affairs in his capacity of house leader that no one has any intention at this session of arranging for a debate on the report of the committee on broadcasting. I fervently hope that my interpretation of the views of the house leader is a correct one.


George Clyde Nowlan: I would hope so.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I simply wanted to say, so that it would be on the record, and I think I can probably do it between now and six o'clock, that speaking not just for myself but for the Liberal party, I dissent and we dissent from the recommendation made with respect to the proposed recomposition of the
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board of directors of the C.B.C., and particularly to the recommendation that no executive officer or other employee of the corporation shall be a director of the corporation. The reasons for this dissent will be very plain from the debates of 1958, and our position in this regard has been strengthened rather than weakened by the experience since.
I felt it was desirable to say this because I do hope that if the government should decide between now and the next session to bring in any legislation to amend the Broadcasting Act, they will not bring in legislation which will create a board of political appointees solely and exclude from that board the officers of long experience who are now, respectively, the president and the vice president of the corporation.


James Aloysius McGrath: Mr. Chairman, where was the hon. member when the report was written?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, I am very glad the hon. member for St. John's East asked that question.


An hon. Member:: Six o'clock.


John Whitney Pickersgill: When the report was written the hon. member who is now speaking was in his place in this house, which was sitting at the same time as the committee was meeting, as has happened over and over in this longest of all sessions because of the shocking mismanagement of the business of the house by the government.


Gordon Campbell Chown: Shall vote 43 carry?


William Moore Benidickson: I see the clock, Mr. Chairman. Of course, we are all so pleased that the minister is in such good health again. I am only going to say that he knows I have had a long-standing interest with respect to the possibility of the C.B.C. doing something for Atikokan, Fort Frances, the Red lake area and some other parts of that very large riding which I represent. I do not expect a reply from the minister tonight. I would simply ask him, in view of his ability to be back on the job, to look at this matter again and perhaps advise me and my constituents about it.


Gordon Campbell Chown: Shall vote 43 carry?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, before this vote carries I should just like to say one word. 1 am not going to oppose the carrying of the vote right now. However, I would like to make it very clear that there are two considerations in the minds of the opposition in agreeing to the carrying of this vote. One is a proper human concern for the Minister of National Revenue, for whom we have great respect. I do not say that in any patronizing way at all; we realize that the minister is carrying a very heavy load-

Business of the House


William Moore Benidickson: Hear, hear.


John Whitney Pickersgill: -under considerable difficulties. The second reason is that the session has already been so prolonged. But we do hope that in taking this position-and I am speaking here, I think, for hon. members on both sides of the house-we will not read in half the newspapers in the country tomorrow that, notwithstanding the shocking increase in the cost of the C.B.C., parliament dealt with the item in 10 minutes. After all, we did not deal with it in ten minutes; we spent many days on it in the special committee. Even the Ottawa Journal said editorially the other day that we ought to give the C.B.C. a rest because parliament had spent so much time dealing with its affairs.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
George Clyde Nowlan: At the conclusion of these items, Mr. Chairman, I wish to express my appreciation to the committee and make it plain that I hope it is not out of consideration for myself that their scrutiny has been expedited, because the minister could sit here tomorrow and deal with these matters. However, I thought if we got through with them tonight we might facilitate business tomorrow.
Resolutions adopted in committee of supply this day reported and concurred in.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Mr. Chevrier:: Mr. Speaker, I take it we will be sitting tomorrow. In view of that I would ask the house leader to tell us what business we will take tomorrow. Perhaps he will also indicate what we will be doing next week.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Speaker, I thank the nouse for the commendable progress it made today. We will take the estimates of privy council first tomorrow followed by those of
veterans affairs and those under the heading of legislation. There are some additional supplementary estimates which we shall endeavour to clear away. If time permits and the house is willing we might take the estimates of the Department of Finance.
Tomorrow I shall be better able to forecast the completion of the business of this session and make a good guess about the termination, with the assistance of the opposition.


Lionel Chevrier: May I direct the minister's attention to the fact that on my list there are several small items such as insurance and Auditor General which must be dealt with.


Gordon Minto Churchill: I do not wish to hurry the house but those could be taken tomorrow. They normally are taken following the estimates of the Department of Finance.


Lionel Chevrier: I would hope that we could dispose of all these smaller items with the exception of finance. If the minister calls finance tomorrow there will be a general debate. Could we leave that until next week?


Gordon Minto Churchill: I take it that these other items might be called in advance of the Department of Finance.


John Whitney Pickersgill: They are not under the heading "Finance" in the book.


Gordon Minto Churchill: No, but they are normally dealt with following the estimates of finance. We could call Auditor General, atomic energy, national research, insurance and governor general which follows privy council. The intention for tomorrow would be to complete the items I mentioned with the possible exception of the Department of Finance. I am not pressing the matter at all.
It being 6.06 p.m., the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.