1961-05-05

Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to table two copies of order in council P.C. 1961-675, dated May 5, in which His Excellency the Governor General by and with the advice of Her Majesty the Queen's privy council for Canada declares his assent to Bill No. 56 of the legislature of Saskatchewan passed during the present year and which was reserved by the lieutenant governor of Saskatchewan for the signification of the pleasure of the Governor General in accordance with the terms of the British North America Act.
In view of the importance of the constitutional issue involved, and with the leave of the house, I should like to place on the record the text of this order in council. It is a relatively short one. Leaving out the preliminaries and commencing with the preamble it reads as follows:
Whereas Bill No. 56 entitled "The Mineral Contracts Alteration Act, 1961" passed by the legislature of the province of Saskatchewan at the first session of the fourteenth legislature of the province of Saskatchewan, was reserved on the 8th day of April, 1961, by his honour the lieutenant governor of Saskatchewan for the signification of the pleasure of the Governor General;
And whereas the lieutenant governor, in transmitting the bill, gave as his reasons for reserving it
(a)	that the bill, in his view, was ultra vires the legislature, and
(b)	that the bill was not in the national interest;
And whereas it is the established policy in these
matters to consider first the question of whether the bill is within the competence of the legislature to enact and second the question of whether it is in conflict with national policy or interest, and if these two questions be resolved favourably, to recommend that assent be given unless the bill is otherwise objectionable;
And whereas the Minister of Justice has examined the bill and has considered the reasons given by his honour the lieutenant governor for the reservation thereof, and he is of the opinion, with respect to the first question, that the bill is within the competence of the legislature to enact; that, with respect to the second question, the minister has considered the authorities and precedents, and is of the opinion that the expression "conflict with national policy or interest" does not relate solely to a difference of principle or point of view, but must include matters of practical or physical effect, and that in this sense the bill is not in conflict with national policy or interest;
And whereas the question of whether the bill is otherwise objectionable, being a matter that
involves considerations other than legal, has been considered by His Excellency's advisers as a whole, and the conclusion has been reached that the nature of the bill is not such as to warrant departure from the normal course of recommending assent;
Wherefore His Excellency the Governor General, by and with the advice of the Queen's privy council for Canada, is pleased hereby to declare his assent to the said bill.
The house will recall that Hon. Frank Bastedo, lieutenant governor of Saskatchewan, reserved this bill, and did so without instructions from or consultation with the federal government. I have no hesitation in saying that had there been such consultation my colleagues and I would have recommended to the Governor General that the lieutenant governor be instructed not to reserve the bill.
I should call your attention, sir, and that of the house to the fact that in 1882 the governor general in council, in a minute of council transmitted to the lieutenant governors of each province, noted:
The lieutenant governor is not warranted in reserving any measure for the assent of the governor general on the advice of his ministers. He should do so in his capacity of a dominion officer only, and on instructions from the Governor General. It is only in a case of extreme necessity that a lieutenant governor should without such instructions exercise his discretion as a dominion officer in reserving a bill. In fact, with facility of communication between the dominion and provincial governments such a necessity can seldom if ever arise.
That was in 1882. In view of the development of communications since, it is evident that nowadays there should be ample opportunity for lieutenant governors to confer with the federal government before reserving a bill. I should point out that while no formal instructions have yet been given to lieutenant governors to reserve a bill unless upon specific instructions, my colleagues and I are now considering whether such formal instructions should be given.
In so far as the substance and other aspects of the bill in question are concerned, they are properly, of course, the concern of the governor general in council; and I feel that instead of going into detail, if there is any discussion to take place on this matter it might well be postponed until the estimates of the privy council are before the house unless naturally, in the meantime, opportunity arises for discussion.

Royal Assent to Provincial Bill


Mr. Hazen Argue (Assiniboia):: Mr. Speaker, I think the house has listened with great interest to the words of the Prime Minister and to the decision of the government. I feel that the government has made a correct decision, and I am certain that it will receive the approval of the people of Saskatchewan in general.
The Prime Minister made it clear this morning, as he has done on former occasions, that in reserving Bill No. 56 the lieutenant governor of Saskatchewan did so without instructions from the Governor General or the governor in council, and without consultation.
The Prime Minister has also made it abundantly clear, and with this I very much agree, that this is an extraordinary procedure and he has pointed out that, although it may conceivably have been within the letter of the law, the precedents make this kind of action unwarranted. I feel that the lieutenant governor of Saskatchewan has exceeded the prerogatives of his office-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I would ask the hon. member to confine his comments on the matter, to the factual statements of policy in the same way the Prime Minister did and not to express opinions with respect to the conduct of Her Majesty's representative in Saskatchewan.


Hazen Robert Argue: On the point of order that you have raised, Mr. Speaker, I would point out that on other occasions you have been even stricter in your rulings and that any reference to a lieutenant governor, his office or how he carried out his office was considered out of order. The Prime Minister has indicated that this whole question will be the subject of a debate in the house on a future occasion, and at that time I shall endeavour once again to put my views before the house and indicate that in my view he should resign.


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member will have to abide by the rules of the house with respect to commenting on the conduct of the representative of Her Majesty except as such conduct is necessarily involved in a factual way in the statements of policy that have been made, but that is a problem that we can meet when it arises.


Hazen Robert Argue: If he does wrong, where do we go from there?
[Mr. Diefenbaker.l



UNITED NATIONS


Hon. Howard C. Green (Secretary of State for External Affairs):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to announce the appointment of the hon. member for Charlevoix (Mr. Asselin) to the special United Nations commission of judicial review for the Belgian trust territory of Ruanda-Urundi.
The territory is a small, densely populated area lying landlocked in equatorial Africa between the republic of the Congo-Leopoldville-to the west, Uganda to the north and Tanganyika to the east and south. A former German colony, since 1919 it has been administered by Belgium, first as a mandate of the league of nations and subsequently as a trust territory of the United Nations.
On April 21 the general assembly adopted by a large majority, which included Canada, a resolution giving Belgium specific directives in respect of the administration of the territory and its evolution to independence. The resolution also contained a provision for the implementation of a general amnesty and the establishment of a special three nation commission to review a number of cases of persons convicted of grave crimes with a view to securing their release from prison or return from exile. Canada, together with Brazil and Tunisia, was elected to serve on this commission, which is expected to leave this month on a journey of approximately three weeks to Belgium and Ruanda-Urundi and to submit a report to the United Nations prior to legislative elections in the territory scheduled for August of this year. The costs of the commission will, of course, be borne by the United Nations.
As you know, Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Charlevoix is well qualified to take this assignment. He has broad legal and political experience, and has concerned himself particularly with international affairs. In 1958 he was a member of the Canadian delegation to the NATO parliamentary association meeting in London, and during the fifteenth session of the United Nations general assembly which has just been completed he served as Canadian representative both in the legal committee and also in the trusteeship committee, which has been considering the Ruanda-Urundi item. This hon. member has made a splendid contribution to the work of the United Nations during its last session.


Hon. Paul Marlin (Essex East):: Mr. Speaker, I have no comment to make about an assignment given to an hon. member of the house, but I would simply point out to the minister

that he has a parliamentary secretary who does not seem to be overly occupied when he is in the house.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Some hon. Members:: Withdraw.


Mr. Marlin (Essex Easl):: When a parliamentary secretary appointed for the purpose of assisting the minister is provided with remuneration for the discharge of his heavy responsibilities it would seem to me that assignments of this kind should not pass by the parliamentary secretary, as he is apparently not overly occupied.


Mr. H. W. Herridge (Kootenay West):: Mr. Speaker, we appreciate the information on this important question given by the Secretary of State for External Affairs. I think it demonstrates what can be done in the spirit of conciliation when people are willing to achieve good ends through negotiation and apply the principles of common sense, having in mind the welfare of all people. We wish the officials representing this country and the mission concerned every success in all they are attempting to undertake in connection with this matter.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


Hon. Lionel Chevrier (Laurier):: Is the
Prime Minister or Minister of Labour not going to make a statement on motions in connection with the settlement of the threatened railway strike?


Mr. Speaker:: I think the hon. member for Laurier will have to leave to the government the decision as to what statement will be made by the government.
On the orders of the day:


Lionel Chevrier: May I ask
the Prime Minister if he has any comment to make on the settlement of the strike between the railways and the members of the Canadian brotherhood of railway workers?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I expressed the hope the other day that there would not be a strike. Negotiations have continued from time to time since legislation was passed in December, intermittently it is true but in the last few days more regularly, and as a result of the process of negotiation there will not be a strike.


Lionel Chevrier: In asking a supplementary question of the Prime Minister, may I preface it by saying that we too on this side of the house are delighted that there has been-
Labour Conditions


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Lionel Chevrier: -a settlement of this dispute on the terms that we recommended in the house some months ago.


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Lionel Chevrier: May I ask the Prime Minister or the Minister of Labour whether any arrangement has been made between the government and the railways in connection with the funds with which these increases will be met?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, when the government is in a position to do so it will bring before the house, as I have already pointed out, such legislation as may be acceptable to the government in conformity with some parts, not all, of the recommendations made by the MacPherson commission.


Lionel Chevrier: May I ask a further question.


Mr. Speaker:: May I interrupt the hon. member to permit a supplementary question from the hon. member for Assiniboia.


Hazen Robert Argue: I should like to ask the Prime Minister whether, in view of the settlement and in view of the statement he has just made, the Freight Rates Reduction Act will be maintained; that is, that there will be no increase in freight rates, and if so for what period of time?


John George Diefenbaker: The resolution in respect of the matter referred to by the hon. member is on the order paper.


Hazen Robert Argue: Is it correct to say that the increased wage rates will be paid out of railway revenues, and not by the public of Canada?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I have a supplementary question that I should like to ask of the Prime Minister. In view of the settlement which is based upon terms strongly advocated in this house by the Liberal opposition-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Paul Joseph James Martin: -may I ask the
Prime Minister now what disposition is going to be made for those thousands of railway workers who were laid off as a result of the dispute which this government was unable to settle six months ago.


Hazen Robert Argue: There has been no strike.


Mr. Speaker:: I do not want to prevent the Prime Minister from answering, but may I < comment first on the question which is really a controversial statement introduced as a question and not a search for information.

Labour Conditions


Mr. Fleming (Eglinion):: It is highly improper.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I submit to you, Mr. Speaker, that hon. gentlemen opposite, in spite of all their talk about the rights of parliament, are trying to prevent us from expressing our opinions. I ask the Prime Minister-


Mr. Harkness:: You are infringing on our
rights every day.


Peter Francis Martin: The Minister of National Defence now offers his two cents worth.


Mr. Speaker:: If the hon. member wishes to speak to the point of order I shall be glad to elaborate what I had in mind. He was asking first about a matter of policy which the government has already indicated will be announced in due course. The first part of his question as well as the last part were expressions of opinion. On that account I considered that he had overstepped the bounds of propriety at this time and that he should reserve comment of that kind for debate.


Mr. Walker:: The hon. member for Essex East is constantly flouting your authority, Mr. Speaker.


Peter Francis Martin: Mr. Speaker, Your Honour does not catch all these observations made by responsible ministers. The observation just now made by a neophyte, the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Walker) is one to which Your Honour's attention should be directed.


Mr. Speaker:: If the hon. member wishes to raise this as a matter of privilege I will hear him. Otherwise it is irregular to comment on it.


Peter Francis Martin: What the Minister of Public Works says, Mr. Speaker, really does not need to be dignified by raising it to a question of privilege. The question which I was asking, and which I submit is in order, is what is going to happen-


Mr. Speaker:: If the hon. member would indicate why he submits that it is in order I might modify my view. He is entitled to comment on the ruling I have made, but I wish he would confine himself now to the relevant matter, namely the reasons why his question would be in order.


Peter Francis Martin: Many hundreds of men have been laid off by the Canadian Pacific Railway and by the Canadian National Railways, and I want to know from the Prime Minister-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member is dealing with the substance of the controversy
[Mr. Speaker.)
rather than the principle which to my mind is involved in the way in which he has chosen to bring this matter before the house. I recognize the hon. member for Middlesex West.


Mr. Thomas:: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege.


Peter Francis Martin: Mr. Speaker-


Some hon. Members:: Sit down.


Peter Francis Martin: I will sit down for the Speaker and not for anyone else.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. If the hon. member has not finished his comments in dealing with the point of order, I will hear him. However, I hope I shall not be obliged again to ask him not to deal with the substance of the question and thereby make his point as a point of order.


Mr. Martin (Essex Easl):: I am asking the Prime Minister a question about the settlement. I am surely entitled to ask what are the consequences of the settlement. That is the nature of my question.
I ask the Prime Minister now this question. As a result of the settlement of this particular issue between the railways and the railway workers, can the Prime Minister say what steps will be taken under the act passed in this house, to see to it that those laid off will be reinstated?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, the obvious annoyance of the hon. gentleman is apparent over the settlement announced this morning.


Peter Francis Martin: I ask the Prime Minister to answer the question. I now rise on a question of privilege. The right hon. gentleman-


John George Diefenbaker: I have the floor.


Peter Francis Martin: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege.


John George Diefenbaker: These questions of privilege that are not questions of privilege.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. If a question of privilege arises out of what the Prime Minister has said to this point I think the hon. member for Essex East would be entitled to the floor, and I will hear what question of privilege he feels arises.


Paul Joseph James Martin: The Prime
Minister said that I was obviously annoyed over the fact that a settlement had taken place.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Mr. Speaker:: I heard what the Prime Minister said, and in my view a question of privilege does not arise. I will go this far with the hon. member for Essex East and

say it was not an appropriate answer to the question which he addressed, in that it expressed extraneous opinions. As there is in my view no matter of privilege arising from what the Prime Minister has said, I will hear the Prime Minister.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker-


Mr. Speaker:: I am sorry; the hon. member has raised a question of privilege, and it has been disposed of.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I have not even argued the point.


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member indicated that the point arose out of what the Prime Minister had said, and I have indicated that I see no question of privilege in what the Prime Minister said. However, I did express the view that it was not an appropriate answer to the question.


John George Diefenbaker: If I referred to any extraneous matters I did so because of the gratuitous statements made by the hon. gentleman.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Deal with the question asked.


John George Diefenbaker: I would say this. Legislation was passed by this house last December. It was undertaken that those who had been laid off by reason of the fact that a strike had been threatened should be reinstated. Parliament passed that legislation and the provision is embodied in section 4 of the act, which reads:
Every railway company shall reinstate every employee who was laid off since the 1st day of November, 1960, by reason of a curtailment or discontinuance of any of the operations of the company in anticipation of a strike by the employees of the company.
That is the law of the land which was passed by parliament. I notice that in his first statement the hon. gentleman started by saying that thousands were laid off. He got down to hundreds in his second question, and I simply say in answer to him that the law of the land must at all times be enforced.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Of course, but that is not the question.


Mr. Speaker:: I think I should recognize the hon. member for Middlesex West who was good enough to defer his question.


Lionel Chevrier: May I direct a question to the Prime Minister. His colleague the Minister of Labour is reported to have said last night or this morning in reference to the settlement of this strike, that he did not know where the money which would provide for the settlement is to come from. I think I am
Inquiries of the Ministry entitled to ask the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that this is an important matter arising as it does following the recommendations of the royal commission on transportation, and in the light of the deficit of the Canadian National Railways for last year and the estimated deficit for 1961, he will give some indication of how the funds will be provided by parliament, if that is the way it is going to be done.


John George Diefenbaker: It is not for me to add
anything. I hope that following the settlement arrangements will be made by the company, as I am sure they will, to make the payments and discharge the responsibilities which they undertook as a result of the settlement made between the companies and the employees.


Hon. J. W. Pickersgill (Bonavisia-Twillin-gaie):: Could I ask the Prime Minister to give the house an assurance that no prior undertaking of any description was given to the railway companies before the settlement was reached yesterday?


John George Diefenbaker: I say with the greatest joviality to the hon. gentleman that the experiences he used to have when he was a member of the government of a former day are not being repeated by this government.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I wonder if the Prime Minister could now give a categorical answer to a simple, straightforward question.



WATER RESOURCES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
William Howell Arthur Thomas: My
question is directed to the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources. Can the minister inform the house whether any progress has been made in arranging with the province of Ontario and the Ausable valley conservation authority for the construction of the Parkhill dam? If so, what is the present status of the negotiations?


Hon. W. G. Dinsdale (Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources):: I thank the hon. member for his question, and I am happy to inform him that the formal agreement will be signed next Wednesday at Parkhill.



INQUIRY AS TO ALTERNATIVE FINANCIAL PROPOSALS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Representing the interests and concern of hon. members in all parties, I wish to ask
4402	HOUSE OF
Inquiries of the Ministry the Minister of Finance a question in a strictly non-partisan spirit. Has the government given any consideration to proposals alternative to those presented by Premier Bennett to the Minister of Finance during the discussions in Victoria on March 24 and 25 with respect to the financing of Columbia river development? If so, is the minister in a position to inform the house of the nature of these alternative proposals?


Donald Methuen Fleming: I did inform the house of those alternative proposals on March 27 when I made a report to the house following my discussions at Victoria with Premier Bennett. I then reported that the premier had put forward two alternative proposals and that the federal government had previously put forward a proposal, and that these three proposals had been discussed fully, frankly and in a cordial spirit in the talks I had with Premier Bennett. The three proposals are set forth in detail in Hansard of March 27 at pages 3400, 3401 and 3402. This subject of the financing of the Columbia river development has, of course, continued to receive consideration on the part of the government.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Apparently no further proposals have come forward. I should like to ask the minister if he would care to comment on a speech made by the leader of the Liberal party in British Columbia at Vancouver a year or two ago-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I think the hon. member has put himself out of court by his introduction. He may have a question to ask, but it is certainly not the administrative responsibility of the minister to comment on speeches made by politicians elsewhere.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I apologize but the hon. member for Essex East has made several comments of a similar kind. My question is, has the federal government given consideration to expropriation in connection with the Columbia river project, presumably through an amendment to the British North America Act?


Donald Methuen Fleming: No, Mr. Speaker; and if anybody in British Columbia said that he evidently does not know what he is talking about.



HARBOURS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Maurice Bourgei (Levis):: I wish to address a question to the Minister of Public Works. Can the minister inform the house if


he has received a resolution from the city of Riviere du Loup regarding port development at Gros-Cacouna and, if so, will he say when the city can expect an answer?


David James Walker: The hon. member for that riding has been in constant touch with me over the past year in connection with that project. I can assure the hon. member for Levis that it is under constant consideration. I do not know whether we have received a resolution in the last day or two, but I shall be very happy to inform the hon. member if such is the case.



INDIAN AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Frank Howard (Skeena):: In the absence of the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration and of the parliamentary secretary I wonder if I could place this question on the order paper. It could then be taken as notice. Has the minister yet received a reply from the attorney general of the province of British Columbia with respect to certain resolutions from Indian bands asking that section 96A(2) of the Indian Act be brought into force on the reservations concerned. Might I also inquire whether the minister can announce what action will be taken as a result of the amendment by the British Columbia legislature of the provincial liquor act in so far as its application to Indians is concerned.


Hon. Gordon Churchill (Minister of Veterans Affairs):: Mr. Speaker, the question will be taken as notice.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. P. Deschatelets (Maisonneuve-Rose-mont):: Mr. Speaker, I would like to address a question to the Minister of Labour. Does the minister not think that plans for the next winter works program should be made known to the municipalities now? If so, does the government intend to take immediate steps in this regard?


Hon. Michael Starr (Minister of Labour):: Mr. Speaker, the government is always looking at the situation. The government instituted this winter works program and co-operated with the provinces in respect to any announcements which are made as to the time it will be started.


Hazen Robert Argue: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a supplementary question. In view of the continuing unemployment has the government given any consideration to a summer works program along the same lines?


Michael Starr: Mr. Speaker, the measures this government has taken since this session commenced on November 17 last are taking effect now, and work will be provided the year round.


Lionel Chevrier: With 700,000 people out of work?


Michael Starr: Don't say that with such glee.


Lionel Chevrier: On a question of privilege, Mr. Speaker, I did not say that with glee, I said it with accuracy. The government's policies are not producing the results the minister has said they would.


Mr. Speaker:: Order.


EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, while the Prime Minister is calming down may I ask his more serene colleague, the Secretary of State for External Affairs, if he can give the house any intimation of the nature of the meetings which he is about to attend. I refer to the NATO meeting and the 14 power Geneva conference. As the minister is leaving tonight may I say to him, in that spirit of good will which now characterizes this particular phase of our discussions, that I am sure the house wishes the minister a successful assignment, and bon voyage. We all hope that these meetings will contribute to the peace of the world.


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, I am very grateful to the hon. member for Essex East for extending these good wishes to me on this trip to Europe.
The NATO meeting is the annual spring meeting of the organization which is attended only by the foreign ministers, and not by the ministers of finance and national defence, as is the case with the December meeting each year. The agenda for these meetings is never made public, but I believe there will be discussions on the present international situation, particularly concerning those parts of the globe in which there is great tension at the present time. Furthermore, there will probably be discussions on long term planning for the NATO organization.
Inquiries of the Ministry
With regard to the Geneva conference, the purpose is to deal exclusively with the situation in Laos. Canada's representatives are attending that conference because Canada is a member of the international supervisory commission, so that our interests will be to further whatever steps will make it possible for that commission to prevent further trouble in that unhappy country and to help bring about a permanent solution under which Laos will be a neutral state unaffected by the cold war.
(Translation):


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Gerard Loiselle (Si. Ann):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs.
Is the government considering making its transport facilities available to all Canadian missionaries presently in Cuba who would like to come back to Canada?
(Text):


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, we are deeply concerned about the action which is said to have been taken by Cuban authorities against Canadian Catholic priests and nuns in Cuba. The Canadian embassy in Havana is in touch with members of the Canadian religious community there, and the Department of External Affairs is consulting with the Catholic authorities in Canada regarding the action which may be required to assist these missionaries.
It should be recalled that these Canadian missionaries went to Cuba for idealistic and disinterested purposes, and over the years, have won the respect and affection of the people among whom they have worked. In view of the services they have rendered it is our hope that the Cuban government will take all necessary measures to ensure their safety and the protection of their property. The Cuban government is well aware of the importance attached by the Canadian government to securing fair and equitable treatment for Canadian priests and nuns in Cuba. We cannot but regret that the decision of the Cuban government may endanger one of the most valuable ties established between Canada and Cuba. We will certainly do everything we can to assist; at the moment I think it would be unwise for me to go any further.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Paul Hellyer (Trinity):: I should like to direct a question to the Prime Minister.

Inquiries of the Ministry Would the Prime Minister care to comment on the successful space flight of the United States astronaut Alan Shepard this morning?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I am sure that in asking the question the hon. member intended to give me the opportunity to join with him and all other hon. members in congratulating the astronaut and also the United States of America on this outstanding achievement.



NATIONAL REVENUE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Hubert Badanai (Fort William):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Minister of National Revenue, of which I have sent him notice. It has been reported that in the United States a device is on the market which sells for $40, and which can be installed in an automobile, the function of which is to spot police radar installations. In view of the fact that such a device could easily outwit law enforcement in regard to traffic in Canada, could the minister indicate to the house whether the government would consider-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. If the hon. member's question relates, as it appears, to law enforcement, particularly with respect to speeding and other highway offences, it seems to me he is asking the question of the wrong government.


Mr. Alexis Caron (Hull):: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, I think your point of view has not been well taken because the hon. member has not completed his question. I understand he is suggesting the imposition of an embargo in respect of this device, and this would be within the jurisdiction of the Department of National Revenue.


Mr. Speaker:: If the hon. member feels that this device is of such consequence that there is some urgency about the matter I am willing to allow him to proceed.


Hubert Badanai: Could the minister indicate to the house whether the government would consider imposing an embargo on such a gadget designed to circumvent efforts of the police to control highway accidents?


Hon. George C. Nowlan (Minister of National Revenue):: Mr. Speaker, I received this
question just before I came into the house. I know nothing about the matter, but it would appear to me that perhaps the hon. member attaches too much importance to rumours which appear in the press from time to time, and expresses too little confidence in the ability of police forces to deal with such a


situation. If the dire consequences to which he has referred should arise, I am sure the competent governments will take whatever action is necessary.


Hubert Badanai: There is no rumour about it. TRADE



INQUIRY AS TO CONTRACT FOR SALE TO CHINA

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. E. Pascoe (Moose Jaw-Lake Centre):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to address a question to the Minister of Agriculture. Yesterday in this house an attack was made on the China trade agreement for-


An hon. Member:: Order.


James Ernest Pascoe: There was an attack made in this regard because the agreement does not tie Canada to a definite contract as to the amount and price of the wheat to be delivered during the next three years.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member is not entitled to ask a question in pursuance of a debate. If he has a question to ask which seeks information of the government, would he please put his question.


James Ernest Pascoe: Would the minister inform the house that if a definite contract was signed, as advocated by the hon. member for Assini-boia, there would be no opportunity to obtain a better price should wheat prices increase within the next three years?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I think the hon.
member is attempting to revive a debate rather than acquire information.


Mr. J. H. Horner (Acadia):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture. Can he inform the house whether there was a definite agreement signed with China for the purchase of wheat and barley?


Hazen Robert Argue: I suggest that the question that is now being asked opens up the very controversy that was raised by the hon. member for Moose Jaw-Lake Centre and on which you commented that this was a method of reviving the debate of yesterday. I do not object to this debate being revived, but I do say that if it is revived all members should be given the opportunity to comment.


John (Jack) Henry Horner: On the point of order, I asked the minister whether an agreement had been signed, and he can answer yes or no. I cannot see where any debate should arise out of a question such as this.


Mr. Speaker:: There was no reference to the debate. The hon. member for Assiniboia takes exception that it is a follow-up of a controversy that arose yesterday, but the question in itself is quite in order. Since the hon. member has not attempted to bring in the controversy the question of fact might be answered, I think.


Hon. Alvin Hamilton (Minister of Agriculture):: Mr. Speaker, I should just like to answer the hon. member by reading one or two of the statements I made on my return from Hong Kong.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: They are already on the record; why bother?


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: This sentence may be found at page 4205 of Hansard, column 1, third paragraph:
Because of the quantities of grain involved and other factors, the Canadian government felt there should be an over-all agreement to facilitate orderly marketing.
I am now pleased to report that a long term agreement has been signed.
Mr. Speaker, I should like to raise a question of privilege, if I may, concerning what was said in the house yesterday afternoon. It was brought to my attention this morning by the hon. member for Acadia.


Mr. Speaker:: Before the hon. member proceeds, was he present when the matter which he raises was brought up?


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: It was brought to my attention this morning by the hon. member for Acadia that I was accused in the house yesterday of misleading-perhaps I had better read the words of the hon. member for Assiniboia.


Some hon. Members:: What page?


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: Page 4335 of Hansard. The hon. member said:
The minister later on called it "a sale of this order". I think this was a carefully worded statement, and I think it was carefully designed to mislead.


An hon. Member:: Did you expect any better?


Hazen Robert Argue: On a point of order, this very question was raised on a point of order yesterday.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I am not sure whether the hon. minister has completed his statement, but perhaps a point of order would intervene if this matter had been raised yesterday on behalf of the minister. Will the hon. member for Assiniboia give me the citation.


Hazen Robert Argue: I have the copy of Hansard before me but I am unable to give it to you, sir,
90205-6-278
Inquiries of the Ministry without having the opportunity to look it up, but I remember quite clearly what happened. I was accused of saying that the-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. Before the hon. member proceeds, if he asserts that the point of order was raised and disposed of, that would perhaps have a bearing on my ruling, and I should be glad to have the reference.


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: Perhaps I can bring some light to the hon. member for Assiniboia by reading the selections from Hansard where the point was discussed. They consist of only two paragraphs. This is to be found at page 4335 of Hansard. After the hon. member for Assiniboia had made this charge the following took place:


Mr. Chambers:: Mr. Chairman, I rise on a question of privilege. The Minister of Agriculture is not present, and it is not within the rules of this house for an hon. member to say that another hon. member of this house deliberately designed something in order to mislead.


John Whitney Pickersgill: He did not say that.


Hazen Robert Argue: If the hon. member is right, if that is what I said, I apologize. I did not mean to put in the word "deliberately". But if the minister had meant it to be deliberate he could not have done a better job. I will say I think this statement misled the house.


Hazen Robert Argue: On the point of order, I was accused yesterday of having said that the minister deliberately misled the house. I said at that time that if I had used the words "deliberately misled the house", and I find I did not use them, I was quite prepared to withdraw that accusation and to say that all that had been done was that the government had made a misleading statement but with the word "deliberately" taken out. I suggest that the minister, by referring to the discussion of yesterday, is attempting by a method not within the rules of the house to revive a debate. If that debate is going to be revived and if the minister is going to make argumentative statements, I feel I have a right to reply.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member is now departing from the point of order. His point was that this matter had been disposed of, but there was no ruling. There was some discussion, as is apparent from a review of the text, but as the Minister of Agriculture was not present at the time and the statement related to him I think he is in order in raising the matter today to make certain that he has not been accused of deliberately planning to mislead the house.


Hazen Robert Argue: The accusation was never made.


Mr. Speaker:: If the minister has finished his complaint about this matter we might proceed. If not, I will hear him out.

Inquiries of the Ministry


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: I was going on to point out that the hon. member for Assiniboia went on to say:
I will say I think this statement misled the house.
Then the hon. member for Greenwood said "No", and the hon. member for Assiniboia continued:
I should say it was put in a misleading manner. It certainly misled the country. It misled no less a person than the president of the Saskatchewan wheat pool.
This is my question of privilege, Mr. Speaker. At no time did I mislead the house in any way whatsoever in connection with this agreement. In my statement to the house I said that there had been a long term agreement signed, and I pointed out that under that agreement we had committed ourselves to provide up to six million tons of barley, wheat and flour.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I think the minister is getting away from the question of privilege. He is now endeavouring to justify his opinion that he did not mislead the house. The minister was accused of deliberately misleading the house and whether the hon. member for Assiniboia withdrew that statement, which he should do-


Hazen Robert Argue: I did.


Mr. Speaker:: If I have his assurance now that he did intend-


Hazen Robert Argue: Mr. Speaker, Hansard shows that I did not use the word "deliberately". Hon. members suggest that I did and I hasten to say, as I did yesterday, that if I had used the word "deliberately" I would immediately withdraw it. I do not know how many times a man has to withdraw a statement he never made.


Mr. Speaker:: I am sorry to differ with the hon. member for Assiniboia, but it is clear from what he first said that he imputed a calculated misleading of the house, which is a deliberate misleading of the house. As he has now indicated that he did not at any time intend to impute deliberate misleading, I trust that the minister will be satisfied.


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: Leaving out the question of the word "deliberately" entirely, if an hon. member stands up and says that I as minister misled the house, have I no question of privilege on that score? I say I did not mislead the house, deliberately or otherwise.


Mr. Speaker:: I appreciate the minister's feelings but it has been decided from time to time, almost invariably, I think, when the issue has arisen before, that no question of privilege is raised when it is said of another


member that his statement has misled the house or that he has misled the house. The whole issue in such a question of privilege is intention, and it has been made clear that there was no imputation of intention.


John (Jack) Henry Horner: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege. I refer to page 4335 of Hansard of yesterday and I point out that it appears that Hansard has been deliberately changed. In the printed report the hon. member for Assiniboia is reported as having said, in the last sentence of the first paragraph on the righthand side of the page:
I do not know why the government signed this agreement, and I should like an explanation-
Then my remarks appear as follows:
In other words, you think they should not have signed it?
I distinctly heard the hon. member for Assiniboia say "I do not know why the government signed this lopsided agreement". I went to the Hansard office and checked the record because I wanted to know whether my question appeared therein. The word "lopsided" was in the record when I saw it in the editor's office. The word "lopsided" has been left out and the whole meaning of the particular sentence has been changed. I say the word should be included in the record, because he definitely used the word. I heard him and I checked the record to prove it.


Some hon. Members:: Shame.


Hazen Robert Argue: Mr. Speaker, I do not know why there should be any shame. I want to answer this accusation, and I think I have a right to answer it.


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member has been accused of a rather serious offence of altering the text of Hansard, and he must be heard.


Hazen Robert Argue: I do not know how I can make it clear. I say first of all that I did not alter Hansard and, second, whether or not it was in this particular context, I do remember using the word "lopsided". I assert that I never changed Hansard and did not take out the word. What I said yesterday was that it was a lopsided agreement. When the government of Canada says it will keep the wheat on hand and make further arrangements later, that is a lopsided agreement.


Mr. Speaker:: Order.



UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. W. H. McMillan (Welland):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the

Minister of Labour. Do the unemployment insurance commission regulations stipulate that unemployed persons drawing benefits must acquire clearance from the local unemployment insurance office before going out of the area for a day to seek work, or for any other reason?


Michael Starr: imagine this pertains to the situation which developed following the visit to Ottawa by the unemployed delegation. This has been brought to my attention, and I advised the hon. member for Niagara Falls yesterday that I had turned the matter over to the unemployment insurance commission to see whether there is anything in the act which would permit the disallowance of any penalty for being away on that day when they were supposed to report to the unemployment insurance office.


William Hector McMillan: I have a supplementary question. Without reference to the unemployed who came to Ottawa, how long can a man be out of his area and still receive unemployment insurance benefits if he is entitled to them?


Michael Starr: I will get that answer from the unemployment insurance commission when they reply to my inquiry regarding the other matter.



PUBLIC WORKS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Frank Howard: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Public Works without notice. Has the minister received a brief from responsible industrial and other organizations on Vancouver island regarding the great need to built a breakwater at Port Renfrew, in San Juan bay? If so, can the minister indicate what action is contemplated in this regard?


David James Walker: Mr. Speaker, Mr. George Chatterton has been taking up this matter with me for some time and, as I explained to the house yesterday in answer to the question by the hon. member for Vancouver East, we are very glad to know that other parties, now that a by-election is pending, are starting to take an interest in this matter.


Frank Howard: A supplementary question.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. If there is some uncertainty about what the minister said, perhaps a supplementary question should be permitted.
90205-6-278i
Inquiries of the Ministry


Frank Howard: My supplementary question is this. Who is this George-what was the name the minister referred to?


David James Walker: The next member of parliament for that constituency.
(Translation):



PUBLIC SERVICE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Noel Dorion (Secretary of State):: Mr. Speaker, yesterday morning the hon. member for St. Henry (Mr. Pit Lessard) asked me whether I was aware that no Frenchspeaking representative was on the advisory committee of the Glassco commission, and if so, whether we would see that the situation was corrected.
Having inquired from the appropriate authorities, I am able to answer my hon. colleague as follows.
I must first inform him that within the Glassco commission, there are no less than ten advisory committees. Further, with the addition of Mr. Wilbrod Bherer, chairman of the Quebec Catholic school board, and Mr. Jean-Claude Lessard, chairman of the Quebec hydroelectric commission, both of whom have been appointed on the so-called "public service personnel advisory committee", Frenchspeaking Canadians are represented on each and every committee of that commission. The only reason why the names of those two members were not mentioned in the first report of the commission is that, at the time of its publication, they had not yet indicated their acceptance.
(Text):



TELEVISION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Minister of National Revenue a question arising out of an answer given by the Minister of Transport on Wednesday to a question of mine regarding the revised application of the Saskatoon television station. In view of the fact that this revised application has been forwarded to the board of broadcast governors -perhaps the minister will take the question as notice and answer it later-can he say whether the other party interested will have the opportunity to be heard before any final decision is made by the government?

Supply-Northern Affairs


George Clyde Nowlan: Mr. Speaker, this is a matter that has been referred to the board of broadcast governors. I have no knowledge of it, but I will make inquiries and give a reply at the first opportunity.



FINANCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker,
I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Finance based in part on a portion of the statement made by the Prime Minister yesterday with respect to the Bladen report. The Prime Minister said, as found on page 4321 of Hansard:
I should consider that it is mainly concerned with fiscal matters and the like.
Will the Minister of Finance take into consideration this report of Professor Bladen before presenting his budget, and will he give the house the assurance that he will at least take steps to abolish the excise tax on automobiles?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member will take the trouble to consult the terms of reference of the royal commission in question he will see there precisely what the Prime Minister had in mind in he statement he made yesterday. As to the other matters which the hon. member has chosen to drag into his question, may I saj to him that as he was a minister of a government for many years I do not know why the physician does not direct his counsel to himself.


Peter Francis Martin: You have not answered my question. You do not want to do anything about the automobile industry.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Flynn in the chair.



DEPARTMENT OF NORTHERN AFFAIRS AND NATIONAL RESOURCES

[Stage Direction]
279. Departmental administration including Canada's share of the expenses of the "resources for tomorrow" conference, $1,105,390.
Mr. Fisher:: Mr. Chairman, just before closing last night the hon. member for Kenora-Rainy River raised a point as to whether the members of the committee were not getting rather short shrift from the minister, in that his replies to questions raised earlier in the discussion were to be given in letter form rather than rebutted or answered in this forum. I think the member for Kenora-Rainy River, and other members,
[Mr. Pickersgill.J
might have support for their argument in that the minister, seemed to take such an inordinate time to reply to the hon. member for Port Arthur. I make no claim that the points I raised had any particular priority or importance over those raised by any other hon. member.
I think the minister's reaction, despite the fact that he credited me with not being personal, was for that very reason. He thought my criticism was personal. Perhaps I should have made it clear that in my comments on the minister I was really questioning or blaming the Prime Minister in the selection of a minister. It seems to be a ritual here, and I suppose a very nice ritual, that when a man takes over a portfolio everybody is appropriately sweet and nice.
I should like to assure the minister that to me he ranks with Abou Ben Adhem in the sense that I am sure he leads all the rest in those fine qualities of charity, industry, humanity and all the rest. But despite all this I honestly feel that in the serried ranks behind the Prime Minister there might possibly have been found-I do not want to be invidious and select a few names-a man who could have given this particular department more dynamic drive. If this is unfair or unkind, well, so be it.
I should like to assure the minister that my remarks were no reflection upon his industry or his capacity in the past. I am sorry that, from the length of the reply he made, there would seem to be an indication that my remarks touched on a sensitive nerve, and that he took the opportunity while talking about petulant pedagogues-although he did take a bit of a cut at himself-to attack the teaching profession. I should like to point out to the minister that I do not think of myself as a teacher at the present time. I happen to be a politician and will be until this particular parliament dissolves. Then if I want to go back to teaching-


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: You are still in an ivory tower.


Douglas Mason Fisher: No; my criticisms were made not as a teacher but as a politician, and they stand in that position. In a sense he rebutted a few of the points I made. For example, in so far as the resources for tomorrow conference is concerned, the minister started with an inaccuracy. I was not the only hon. member who referred to the resources for tomorrow conference. I would give him the hon. member for Kootenay West, who talked quite a bit about his views on the matter. The minister then said that I should go forth and carry the word about the resources

for tomorrow conference. I suggest to him that there were a great many members speaking in this debate.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I used the plural, and I included all members in that challenge.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I point out that at least two members of this group have done their best to publicize this conference. I further point out that I gave several speeches in my own constituency to groups of professional forresters last year, and I can assure the minister that those foresters had not heard about the conference previously and those meetings were well reported by newspaper, radio and television. I believe the area I represent, in the main, knows probably more about this conference, which I consider very important, than other areas.
I come back to the point I made that if in April, 1961, the editor of a prominent business magazine had never heard of the resources for tomorrow conference, there is a fault somewhere in the publicizing of it. One of the points made was that this was an integrated undertaking and was not the sole responsibility of the minister. I quite agree, but I should like to point out to him that we have the minister of lands and forests in Ontario who, I understand, is on the committee. I have many criticisms of Mr. Spooner, but I recognize that he is an able, I might even say crafty, person. In so far as the minister for Manitoba is concerned, who I believe is Mr. Gurney Evans, I would say he is as qualified a cabinet minister as we have in all the provinces. I have already made my bow to the contributions made by Mr. Levesque who, I think, is doing a grand job in this particular context.
It is for this very reason, when I look at three men with this much ability, that I want to see the federal government take a stronger role. I want to see a strong man in there to make sure we get something from the conference. This is the challenge I put to the minister. It seems to me, Mr. Chairman, there is a common view in this house that if there is a weak minister in one department the opposition should be joyful. I have never looked at it that way. Despite the fact that we may be here as opposition members, I want to see whatever government is in power give good administration, with lots of dynamic force and lots of drive. This has been the basis of my objection, and I reiterate my disappointment.
In so far as the part of this department which I thought was of most importance is concerned, it has been removed now and has its own substance in the Department of Forestry. I should like to come back to what I felt was the key point of my criticisms,
Supply-Northern Affairs and I believe the minister suggested that I said there was nothing going on in the north. I indicated nothing of the kind. My point was that there was not enough going on in the south. I point out to the minister that he is the minister not only of northern affairs but of national resources. I point out to him that he can be pictured with all the Eskimo and Indian children in the world in his loving embrace, or watching what they are doing, but his department has other responsibilities as well.
I suggest to him that he read a brief- if he has not a copy of it I will send it to him-written by C. M. Campbell of Vancouver, British Columbia entitled "Canada: A Nation of Economic Liars". Mr. Campbell is a mining engineer who has been spending many years trying to convince Canadians that they talk too much about their unlimited resources and do not look closely enough at the realities of the situation. I pointed out one reality to the minister in my own area. He has, in his department, a map showing a road projected from somewhere north of lake Nipigon and running up toward Churchill in a certain direction. I know that road is not projected at the present time but is only presented as a preliminary idea in relation to a survey of that area.
In my own area, which contains 40,000 square miles, we want roads. We want the federal government to take the lead in the roads to resources program. However, in addition we still have this southern perimeter that has not been developed with the appropriate roads. The minister suggested that I said there was nothing going on in the north and this was a criticism, but my point was that the minister has a responsibility to keep his eyes on the south, too.
I should like to point out something that may give point to this criticism. There is a story in Time magazine for April 14, 1961, which I should like to put on the record, Mr. Chairman. It reads:
Canada's energetic trade and commerce minister George Hees is not the man to bury himself in his own office, unaware of what goes on around him. His latest interest is the national parks. Travelling to lake Louise to inaugurate a new ski lift, Hees schussed down a slope, slued to a stop, and announced that he intended to speak to northern affairs and national resources minister Walter Dinsdale about opening up the parks for skiers.
"I have skied in a number of places in Europe and Canada, but this is the finest skiing I have had anywhere," said Hees amiably. "It's ridiculous for Canadians to be going to Aspen, Sun Valley and Squaw Valley when they have skiing like this at their back door."
Dinsdale just as amiably agreed that his cabinet man might have something. Added Dinsdale "I have got to get around and see the parks. I haven't seen any of them yet."

Supply-Northern Affairs


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Mr. Chairman, in reference to that quotation may I say that I was never interviewed by any members of the press. That quotation is purely fictitious.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I am glad to get that denial. Is the minister suggesting that he has been around to all the national parks?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I have visited most of the national parks. This applies patricularly to the west. I shall visit the maritime parks as soon as the house rises.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I am very much interested to have this comment. However, I will go on with the story:
Staff members of the national parks branch were less agreeable. Said one: "Private interests naturally are always putting pressure on the national parks system. Hees was going along. He is quite uninformed. Draw a 200 mile circle around Banff, and see what population it takes in. Your prospects aren't really outstanding." The six western ski developments operated by the parks branch are all at less than capacity.
What I should like to point out to the minister is this. The hon. member for Cape Breton North and Victoria and another member from Nova Scotia pointed out the possibility of developing skiing in the maritimes. We have evidence that the national parks branch is interested in this field. I thought if the minister was giving a real review of his department, he would go into this question. I think it is an important one. Here we find that one of his own cabinet ministers is misinformed, according to this story. I do not want to put too much credence in this particular bible; I refer to Time magazine. I think this is an indication that the minister has been less than candid. He certainly has not given us a discursive or full account of his responsibility. He seemed to want to fasten upon the hon. member for Port Arthur instead of giving us some indication of what is going on in his department.
I should like to turn to another matter with regard to which I think he was wrong. In his comments directed to me he implied that I had suggested that the mines, forests and waters committee was ignored by the department. What I asked for was some indication that their recommendations had been followed. I should like to have action. It was not only last year but the year previous and the one previous to that, that this committee made recommendations.
I have gone through the annual report. The minister has his deputy minister right there with him, and he can tell him. I cannot find in the annual report any indication that the committee really had any effect at all upon the department. I know it did with regard to the forestry branch, but what about the museum and some of the recommendations
\ Mr. Fisher.]

there? What about other aspects of this fairly large department? I should like to know what the result has been. I think this assembly deserves this information in an itemized account. What was the detailed reaction to the recommendations of the committee?
I think the minister misinterpreted completely the approach I was taking. I thought this was a good committee, although when it was considering this department I thought it perhaps proceeded a bit too much to the north. However, I credit this procedure to the zeal of the hon. member for Yukon. In connection with this particular matter I might point out that the hon. member for Yukon has made the point a number of times that representation of the north in a parliamentary sense is inadequate. I point out to him and remind the minister-because I am sure he is interested in this point-that there are a number of constituencies in Canada proper which in population and area are comparable -when you realize that population is considered to be the most important factor in determining a constituency-to anything we have in Yukon or Mackenzie River. I know the area sizes. I should like to give the hon. member an example.


Mr. Nielsen:: I wonder whether the hon. member would mind my pointing out that I made no suggestion that representation in the north was inadequate. I pointed out that there was absolutely no representation in the Keewatin and Franklin districts of the north. That was my point.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I should like to point out to the hon. member that parts of the constituency of Saguenay, the constituency of Churchill, the constituency of Port Arthur, and there is also one in Saskatchewan, in effect have no representation because of the population and where it is located. I have an area from Fort Severn in the northwest corner through to the tip of James bay and almost all the way to the C.N.R. railway line which it is almost impossible for me to cover as a member of parliament. I raise this matter here in order to indicate that the problem of the Arctic in terms of representation also has a parallel in the south.


Erik Nielsen: But the people in those areas have a vote. The people to whom I refer have no vote.


Douglas Mason Fisher: There were these same difficulties in Fort Severn. This was not the case in the last election. My emphasis here again is this. The minister is the minister of national resources. As minister of national resources he has a real challenge in the resources for tomorrow conference, namely to give an indication and a lead to the various provincial

legislatures; to lead, to persuade, to push, to get them moving in some kind of integrated plan of developing our resouces.
In relation to the resources for tomorrow conference, I should like to add that here there a tremendous emphasis on expertise. I should like to hear from the minister how it is planned to popularize the conference. A number of television programs have been set up. Arrangements have been made with the C.B.C. and the private stations to bring to the people what is being said there. Is an attempt going to be made to focus upon the provincial politicians who will be there in order to get from them some expression of opinion on how we are getting along on renewable resources? These are some of the things on which I should have appreciated comment much more than I appreciated having put on the record of the house some comments from an article that I had not read and for which I was not responsible.
Another point I should like to make to the minister in relation to this department is this. A number of years ago we had from the Massey commission recommendations that affected his department. Later on we had some consideration given to this problem by the mines, forest and waters committee. The minister has within his department what I might call some cultural branches. We know that the museum staff situation still has not been cleared up completely. At least we have not the balance in terms of language which hon. members from French Canada are talking about. When are we going to get changes in that branch to give us that balance? The minister did not talk about that matter at all. These are questions that I should like to hear answered in a situation such as this.
I do not want to take an inordinate amount of time. I suggest to the minister that in the future on his estimates he might consider being a bit more discursive and going into more detail. I think we would all appreciate that procedure much more than having a letter. I received a letter last year after these particular estimates were through. It stated that cost benefits analyses were going to be a definite part of the resources for tomorrow conference. This delighted me, because I think you cannot really look at resources without doing that kind of thing. But from following the conference and the way in which the matter was developing I know that the cost benefit analysis part of it almost slipped out of the proceedings altogether. I should have appreciated it much more if that very important statement by the former minister had been made in this house rather than in a letter to me.
In conclusion I should like to wish the minister all the best in his new portfolio. I do
Supply-Northern Affairs not think this parliament is going to last long enough for me to have the opportunity, but if I can in all honesty eat my own words, in so far as they have been critical, I give the hon. gentleman the assurance as fairly as I can that I shall be here to do it.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Before this love feast between the hon. member for Port Arthur and the minister continues, I think I should protest on behalf of parliament against the offer which the minister made last night to the hon. member for Port Arthur, an offer which I think is absolutely outrageous. At the bottom of page 4391 of Hansard and on the following page I read these words:
If, as the hon. member for Port Arthur has indicated he does not feel he is making a worth while contribution in the house, I should like to suggest that there is tremendous scope in our educational program in the north and we would be glad to welcome him into our program when he retires from this honourable house.
Mr. Chairman, these posts in the north are supposed to be awarded by the civil service commission after competition on the basis of merit, and I think it is simply outrageous for a minister of the crown to seek to silence a timid member like the hon. member for Port Arthur by an offer which is an offer to break the law and which, in addition, probably comes close to an attempt at bribery.


Mr. Small:: I presume the hon. member is talking from experience when he says that applicants for these posts have to come before the civil service commission before they can be appointed.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I hope so. I once appeared before a board myself, and I hope its decision was made on merit.


Mr. McCleave:: I wonder if I could ask the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate whether he would advocate that the hon. member for Port Arthur should serve his apprenticeship to the hon. member for Essex East. That is one way to get into the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources.


Paul Joseph James Martin: How about asking the hon. member for Essex East whether he wants the hon. gentleman as an apprentice?


John Whitney Pickersgill: I indicated earlier to the minister that there were a number of questions that I wished to raise, and I think I shall raise them one by one and give the minister an opportunity to reply to them so that we shall not get mixed up. The first question-and it will not surprise the minister-is one which I approached originally by means of a question on the order paper

Supply

Northern Affairs last Thursday, when I asked the hon. gentleman, as reported at page 4047 of Hansard:
I should like to ask the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources whether his department has recently transferred its advertising account to a new advertising agency.
An hon. member suggested that the question be placed on the order paper. I thought that was a good suggestion, and subsequently I did place it on the order paper. In the meantime, however, the minister did me the courtesy to give me the following reply:
So far as I am aware, several agencies are handling the advertising account of the department. Those agencies have not been changed recently.
I then asked the minister whether he was aware that a story to this effect had appeared that day in the Winnipeg Free Press. Well, the story which appeared in the Winnipeg Free Press that same day read as follows under the heading "Government Job for New Ad Firm":
The new federal minister of northern affairs has farmed out his department's entire national classified advertising account to an agency in his home town which went on a full-time basis, as an advertising agency, only last Friday.
The agency is the J. B. Neill advertising agency, operated by J. Barry Neill, formerly the owner of Barry Neill's clothing store.
Mr. Neill was active in the Young Progressive Conservative organization in Brandon.
All the classified advertising for the department headed by Hon. Walter Dinsdale, including national advertisements for northern teachers and other workers-
Too bad the hon. member for Port Arthur is not here to hear this.
is now being handled by a one man staff from a shared office in Brandon.
In Ottawa, the northern affairs department said Wednesday that the total classified advertising budget of their department in 1960 was $15,000.
Up until last Friday, the proprietor of the agency owned and operated a clothing store. He had a part-time advertising agency, covering some local accounts.
Friday the store was sold, and the agency became a full-time job for the proprietor. It operates from a shared office in a Brandon building, and the department of northern affairs account is the only national account in its files.
The proprietor of the agency said he and his secretary had no trouble handling the northern affairs account, even though it meant placing advertisements in papers across Canada, and some foreign advertising work.
The department of northern affairs pays a standard 15 per cent commission to the agency which handles its advertising.


Mr. Benidickson:: Was this the civil service commission?


John Whitney Pickersgill: I also have here an article from the Brandon Daily Sun of the following day. This is headed "City Man gets Government Contract" and it reads:
The head of a one man advertising agency here has confirmed reports that he has received an account from the northern affairs department.


J. B. Neill, a former member of the Brandon city council, said he had been handling the advertising account since early January.
Mr. Neill, former owner of Barry Neill's men's wear store-
I do not think I need to read all this. It is information of the same kind that appeared in the Winnipeg Free Press, and I shall not repeat it.


An hon. Member:: Not a good paper.


John Whitney Pickersgill: The Brandon Sun has never been a paper notorious for the support of any political party except the party of hon. gentlemen opposite.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: No, that is wrong. It is very fair and impartial.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I do not say it is not, though it is hard for me to understand how a paper which is fair and impartial could support hon. members on that side of the house. But I made no reflection on the paper, unless it is a reflection to say that a paper supports hon. gentlemen opposite. I have been acquainted in a general way with the Brandon Sun for about 45 years, and during all that time it has supported the Conservative party as far as I know. According to this story, Mr. Neill said he had made no representations to obtain the account. It just mysteriously reached him, apparently. Perhaps I may continue the quotation:
He said northern affairs minister Dinsdale, who represents Brandon-Souris riding in the commons, had approached him informally about taking the account last December.
The account was awarded the following month. Mr. Neill said he was notified that he was getting it in a letter from the purchasing division of the northern affairs department. Mr. Neill estimated total billings expected annually from the account will amount to anywhere from $10,000 to $25,000. His commission is 15 per cent of this.
He said the account was handled last year by Cooper Advertising of Saskatoon, but "account switches are very routine in the advertising business".
Well, it does seem to me that a government which has cast about it a mantle of righteousness should hardly be found in a situation of this kind. We remember very well the propaganda which the present Secretary of State for External Affairs used to circulate around the country, when he held his previous portfolio, to the effect that the Tories had abolished patronage, and the exhibition he made at that time.
While it may be that the handing out of an account which will only amount to $10,000 or $15,000 is not a very big thing-I would not assert for one minute that it was-it still has important implications. It is considered a big thing when $10,000 a year is paid to members of parliament for a whole year's work, but apparently it is a very small

thing when it is incidental to some advertising man who has gone into business full-time
only since last Friday.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: That is wrong.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Whether it is wrong or right, two very reputable newspapers report that he has sold his store and that he went into business full time last Friday; that would have been a week ago Friday.
What I found strange was the answer given by the minister to my first question. The minister said that in so far as he was aware, several agencies were handling the advertising accounts of the department, and that these agencies had not been changed recently. I am not suggesting that statement was not correct, because I suppose one can interpret the word "recently" in as sophistical a way as one likes, but I should have thought most ministers with experience would have assumed, since they had only been in the portfolio for a very short time, that any change of this kind, particularly in their home town, would be the kind of thing about which there would be a certain amount of interest.
It does seem to me, to put it in the most polite way I can, that in the answer of the minister given the other day in the house I will not say that he misled the house, but I would say his answer was disingenuous. It was not the kind of simple, straightforward answer we expect from a minister who prides himself on being simple and straightforward.
I do not know if this is part of the government's new campaign to aid small business. I do not know about the Cooper advertising agency, if that is the agency that had this business before, but perhaps it had become too big; perhaps it was not right politically, or perhaps because it was in Saskatchewan the minister thought, being from Manitoba instead of Saskatchewan, there should be a switch.
It does seem to me that this is a rather extraordinary performance. After all, if all that is required to place these advertisements is a stenographer with spare time, or someone in the clothing business, I wonder why someone in the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources could not send them directly to the newspapers and thereby save the taxpayers the commission. It does not seem to me it is necessary to follow this procedure if it is as simple as suggested. If the advertising agency is designing the advertisements, wording them and earning something through its efforts, that is another question; but I cannot imagine that the agency would illustrate the advertisements with pictures of the schools in the north where teachers are required, and that 90205-6-279
Supply-Northern Affairs sort of thing. It seems to me this is purely a routine matter and I suggest that the committee is entitled to some explanation from the minister regarding this transaction.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Mr. Chairman, I have
listened very carefully to the words of the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate. He is a man with long experience in this house, as well as in the civil service, and I am sure the expose he has just made, with all the infinite details and ramifications, indicates that when he was a responsible minister of the crown and also an official of the government, he was a master of intrigue. He has presented in his expose many new angles which, in my innocence, I had never even considered. I am interested to discover the source of the hon. member's information in respect of the particular problems he has raised.


John Whitney Pickersgill: The source of my information is the press of Canada.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I understand this information comes from that reputable paper, the Winnipeg Free Press.


William Moore Benidickson: And the Brandon Sun.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Yes, with the support of that other reputable paper, the Brandon Sun, as the hon. member for Kenora-Rainy River has indicated.
The hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate has queried the accuracy of the reply I made to a question he asked in the house the other morning. I hope he has noticed that I said at that time that so far as I was aware there had been no change made recently in the advertising contracts of the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources. I also went on to say that these contracts were of various types, the largest involved being those in respect of the tourist bureau, and that comes under my responsibility. The hon. member's question was worded in such a way as to give no particular indication of the advertising to which he referred.
I am happy to be able to assure him that when I gave my reply the information contained therein represented my knowledge of this subject at that time. There was no sinister intrigue involved, as he has implied.
In reference to the larger contracts, which amount to some $1,500,000, perhaps I should give this interesting piece of information. For some 15 years this total contract was held by one company, the Cockfield Brown Company. That company, I am sure, is not unknown to the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate because of its close association with the party he represents in this house. I should like to inform the hon. member that
4414	HOUSE OF
Supply-Northern Affairs the department of government looking after this large tourist bureau contract in 1957 divided that advertising business on an equitable basis among a series of companies so that everyone could be treated fairly in Canada. I am surprised that the hon. member has made such a mountain out of this molehill.
Last evening reference was made to a matter raised by the hon. member for St. Boniface, who had made representations on behalf of the Grey Nuns' hospital as a suitable historic site, and the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate took pride in claiming his early affinity with the province of Manitoba. Since he abandoned that province it seems he resents the possibility of any service being provided by a reputable representative of the province. If the business in question had gone to someone in Bonavista-Twillingate I suppose he would not have raised an issue.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I would not advise the minister to pursue that line.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I suppose if the business had gone to some of the so called reputable companies that had been associated with this advertising under the former administration he would not have protested. The agency to which he has referred has been in operation for some four years.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Since June 21, 1957.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: That company is owned and operated by a young man who has been named in this house this morning. He is an outstanding citizen of the city of Brandon, formerly an alderman, who has performed outstanding services for that community. He has handled large contracts in the advertising field, and when the classified advertising business became available in the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources it came to that department's attention that this agency was interested, and that individual was asked to apply. The reason I did not know whether there had been any change when I answered the question was that I had not particularly kept in contact with this matter.


John Whitney Pickersgill: You should always keep in touch with your constituents.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I am delighted to know that, following a very thorough investigation by the departmental officials, this young man was considered qualified to handle this particular aspect of advertising.
There were one or two misstatements in the newspaper account on which the hon. member has based his explanations this morning. I


have already referred to the first when I reported that the agency had been in operation for some four years. Mr. Neill, who was formerly associated with Neill's clothing store, has been dissociated from that business for the period he has been operating the advertising agency. There is no cost to the crown in this operation whatsoever. The 15 per cent service charge is paid by the media which receive the advertising. That is the story straight and simple. The hon. member wanted it straight and simple, without any of the interesting and sinister overtones that he imputed, and I am happy to present it in this way.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Perhaps I can ask one
question. Before I do so I might point out I made no accusations whatsoever. I suggested nothing sinister. All I did was put on the record of the house what was in two reputable newspapers in Manitoba. I have no information whatsoever about this matter except what I read in the public press. It seemed to me that it was a matter of sufficient interest to the people of Manitoba and to the press- and I might say I have had several letters about it since the matter was first raised here, which would suggest that there is some interest in this matter-to bring up in this committee. But the minister, in his simple, straightforward explanation, has said something that I must answer; or perhaps I should not say this; perhaps charity is called for in a case of this kind. I will just read what Mr. Neill said, according to the Brandon Sun. I point out to the minister that this is according to the Brandon Sun and not the Winnipeg Free Press.
Mr. Neill said he had made no representations to obtain the account.
He said northern affairs minister Dinsdale, who represents Brandon-Souris riding in the commons, had approached him informally about taking the account last December.
I should like to ask the minister whether what Mr. Neill said is the truth.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Mr. Chairman, when I mentioned the fact that this account was available he indicated that he was interested, and that interest was communicated to the officials of the department.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Well, I have nothing more to say about this matter, sir, but I should like to ask the minister about another matter that has relationship to Manitoba. Some considerable time ago a motion was passed by this house for the correspondence exchanged between the government of Canada and the government of Manitoba with respect to a very big matter indeed in the affairs of that province. I refer to the Red river floodway, about which, before certain events happened four

years ago, the people who compose the present government, including their leader, made very large promises indeed which there seems to be a good deal of evidence to indicate they are very reluctant to keep. There has been a good deal of pressure in the legislature of Manitoba, and I could read from the Hansard of Manitoba to show this, to have this correspondence produced in that legislature.
On every occasion on which this matter has been brought up the premier of Manitoba has asserted that he could never get the consent of the government of Canada to its production in that house. Over a long period, under the hon. gentleman's predecessor, we had a very similar answer given here, but I must say it is to the credit of the minister that he has taken a rather different attitude toward the matter. He told the house the other day that he had secured the approval of the government of Manitoba to the production of this correspondence. I took it from that that it was the intention of the government to produce it.
I have not had time to check whether the correspondence has been tabled today, but I have checked Votes and Proceedings for the last fews days and there is no record to indicate that it was tabled up until last night. The minister ought to make an effort to make the correspondence available to us at once, during the lunch hour today, so that when his estimates are continued this afternoon we shall have an opportunity to examine the correspondence and ask any questions we wish to about it.
This is a matter of the gravest concern to the government of Manitoba and to the people of that province who have been badly enough treated, as the minister knows well, by the present government in the federal-provincial tax-sharing arrangements, and who are in all the greater need of the financial assistance they were led to expect they would get from the present government.
I hope the minister will see that this correspondence is made available to us by 2.30 this afternoon so that it can be examined while his estimates are being discussed. We had in the case of his predecessor, and we have had in the case of some other members of the government, examples of careful efforts to suppress information in this way until the estimates of the department were completed, with the material being produced immediately after, f would not expect the minister to behave in this fashion, and I hope he will accede to my request in this matter.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: On this particular point, I have been giving very active consideration to the question of tabling these documents, and I have been following the questioning
90205-6-279J
Supply-Northern Affairs by the hon. member in the house. I have been trying to push the matter forward as quickly as possible. I now discover that because it is a matter for interdepartmental consideration, I shall have to have clearance with the other departments concerned. So far as I am concerned the documents are waiting to be tabled. The hon. member will understand these problems, but this is the cause of the present delay.
With reference to the activities of the present Manitoba provincial administration in this regard, I should like to remind the hon. member that the only answer the previous administration had to this very urgent problem in Manitoba-those of us who lived through the flood of 1950 will never forget the serious threat it was-was, like King Canute, to order the waves to recede. There is positive action going forward, I can assure you, sir and the hon. member, with the Manitoba government at this time.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Since it is now one o'clock I hope Your Honour will see me at 2.30, because I should like to make a few observations about the kind of action there has been on this project in the last four years.
At one o'clock the committee took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The committee resumed at 2.30 p.m.
John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, at the time we adjourned for lunch the minister had just made one or two observations which really had nothing to do with the present and which I was rather surprised that this young and dynamic minister should make. When the present minister was appointed I thought we would have an end of these tiresome excuses we get from the government to the effect that because something was not done in the early fifties it should not be done in the sixties. That is the normal pattern of the government. When we ask hon. gentlemen why they have not kept their promises they say that Mr. King did not do that in 1946 or Mr. St. Laurent did not do it in 1952 or Mr. Douglas Campbell did not do it in 1950 as though that had any relation whatsoever to the undertakings these gentlemen opposite gave to the people of Canada, the promissory notes they signed which they refuse to pay. Whatever sins of omission-


Mr. Montgomery:: What a waste of time. You are just wasting time.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Well, Mr. Chairman-

Supply-Northern Affairs


Gage Workman Montgomery: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, when we have to sit here hour after hour and take scoldings from the hon. member such as he is giving us now, it is about time we called him to order because he is not being relevant.


John Whitney Pickersgill: As a matter of fact, the hon. member for Victoria-Carleton sat over here when the greatest filibuster in this country in modern times took place, and I do not recall the hon. member for Victoria-Carleton raising any points of order at that time about the fact that the opposition, which was quite considerably larger then than it is now, talked for hours and hours and days and days-with the most tiresome repetition.


Gage Workman Montgomery: All we are hearing today is purely repetition.


John Whitney Pickersgill: It was anything but repetition to them at that time.


Gage Workman Montgomery: That is all we are
hearing.


Mr. Smith (Calgary South):: Are you attempting to make up for it?


Mr. Hicks:: Turn the other cheek.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I have turned both of them.


The Chairman:: Order. I think we should come back to the discussion of item No. 279.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I was simply doing what I think Your Honour himself decided was quite within the rules when you were acting for the Speaker in the chair, that if an argument had been introduced by some other hon. member and allowed by the Chair a reply should be allowed. I simply trying to point out to the hon. member for Brandon-Souris, who has recently become a member of the cabinet, that if he wants to get ahead in the government of Canada, and heaven knows there is lots of room at the top-


Arthur Smith: He should not take lessons from you.


John Whitney Pickersgill: As a matter of fact, I have quite a lot of experience in this regard.


Arthur Smith: You certainly have.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Of course, the hon. member for Calgary South, who belongs to the kindergarten in this house-


Arthur Smith: You are its
chairman and you have been for some time.
[Mr. Pickersgill.)


John Whitney Pickersgill: The hon. gentleman, who is very vociferous in the house-


Arthur Smith: Get to the point.


John Whitney Pickersgill: -is as usual-


Arthur Smith: You are fumbling.


John Whitney Pickersgill: making his speech when someone else is making his. I do not object to that at all but I do not think it is adding up to very much.


Arthur Smith: What is your subject?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Certainly hon. gentlemen opposite do not like this very much.


Arthur Smith: You have not said anything yet.


John Whitney Pickersgill: What I was saying to the hon. member for Brandon-Souris was that if he hoped to get to the top in this government, where there is plenty of room, I might add, I would strongly advise him to deal with the problems of 1961 and 1962 and not to waste his time making excuses for his lack of action and for the lack of action of his colleagues because of something that happened some time during the fifties. I think the people of Canada are growing very weary of that tiresome kind of argument.
Since the hon. gentleman has chosen to pervert the record of the fifties, and since he has said that the people of Winnipeg will never forget what happened in the fifties, may I say that I hope they do not. I hope they never forget about the greatest generosity that has ever been shown to any people in Canada at any time, which was shown by the people of Canada under the leadership of the St. Laurent government in the disaster fund of that time. Complete restitution was made to everybody of their losses and a considerable amount was left over to remain as a disaster fund which has been very helpful to other parts of Canada. I do not believe my right hon. friend Mr. St. Laurent, or any of his colleagues, have any need to be ashamed or have anything to apologize for in connection with what happened with respect to the relief of the suffering caused by the Winnipeg flood or with respect to the study of the problem of preventing such a thing again.
I call to witness no better witness on this subject than the premier of Manitoba who, speaking in the legislature on March 15 of this year, had this to say about what was done after the flood. He was speaking in reply to a member of the opposition and he said:

Do they not know that the engineering aspect of this matter was thoroughly and I think authoritatively, laid down by the investigation of the Red river basin committee that swung into action about 1954.
This is the premier saying the committee swung into action in 1954. The premier is talking about a committee set up jointly by the government of Mr. St. Laurent and the government of Mr. Douglas Campbell. He describes the study as one which was done thoroughly and authoritatively. I continue the quotation:
And they investigated from an engineering standpoint the various methods that were open for the protection of this greater Winnipeg area.
There is no doubt whatever that this was a very thorough engineering investigation. There is no doubt whatever that to the government of Canada and to the government of Manitoba a very serious engineering problem was posed because here was a tremendous expenditure for engineering works that would have no productive advantage whatever. They would be insurance, insurance against a flood happening every so often, perhaps once in half a century and maybe not even that often. Anybody who knows anything about insurance knows that this is a very big and serious problem, to spend tens of millions of dollars to try to avert a contingency that may not arise for a couple of generations. This is the nature of the problem, and it is not an easy problem for anyone to decide.
Hon. gentlemen who are now sitting on the treasury benches thought it was a very easy problem. Of course, they were rather profuse in the promises they made before 1957. They were going to cure everything in the country; they were going to build the Chignecto canal, build a causeway to Prince Edward Island, which they are still studying, and all sorts of other things all over the country. One of the things they were going to do was to make Winnipeg floodproof for all time to come. This year, they finally got the promise into the speech from the throne.


Mr. Muir (Lisgar):: I wonder if I may ask the hon. member a question?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Certainly.


Mr.. Muir (Lisgar):: Can the hon. gentleman tell me what percentage of the money that was contributed to the Winnipeg flood disaster was voluntary and what part of this money came from the then Liberal government?


John Whitney Pickersgill: As a matter of fact, I am sure that in the excellent accounts that were kept at that time, which I do not pretend to carry in my head, the hon. gentleman
Supply-Northern Affairs will be able to find that information. According to the rules of the house, even the government is not expected to provide published information in answer to questions. As a member of the opposition-


George Robson Muir: Then, the hon. member could perhaps tell me-


John Whitney Pickersgill: Perhaps I could finish my answer to this question and then I will answer the hon. gentleman's next question. As a member of the opposition, and not having access to the same research facilities as hon. gentlemen on the treasury benches have, I do not know offhand what the answer is. However, I do not think it has the slightest degree of relevance to the subject we are discussing. Has the hon. member another question he wishes to ask?


George Robson Muir: I think it has some relevance because the hon. member talks about the great amount of money left over from the contributions made by the St, Laurent government. However, I believe that the greatest amount of the money was given voluntarily and the amount that remained was put to other uses because it was voluntary and could be used for other disaster areas in Canada.


John Whitney Pickersgill: The hon. gentleman is quite right, and that is what I said.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Yes; if hon. gentlemen will look at the record-I give an undertaking that even if there are some grammatical errors I will not change them, so we will be able to look at it just the way it is being taken down, however lopsided it may be-he will see that what I said was, under the leadership given by the St. Laurent government the people of Canada subscribed in the most generous way I can remember to the relief of this disaster. These contributions were used and there was a great deal of money left over which was set aside as a national disaster fund. Perhaps I could clear up this point for the hon. member for Lisgar. If this money had been contributed out of the treasury, there would not have been any left over, of course. It was because it was in large part a voluntary contribution that some special legislative disposition had to be made. I do not want to denature the record in any way.
What I want to say is, so far as that situation was concerned, so far as the relief of the flood victims was concerned, it was never more complete in the history of Canada than it was in that case. So far as the studies of how to prevent such a situation in the future are concerned, we have Mr. Roblin's

Supply-Northern Affairs own word for it in the provincial legislature this year that the most authoritative and thorough studies were initiated by the previous provincial government and the previous federal government. The suggestion of the minister that there was some neglect by his predecessors in this matter falls completely to the ground. Mr. Roblin has been premier of Manitoba now for three years, and he has certainly been trying to screw some money out of the federal government for this project every year. He is becoming increasingly embarrassed about this as he is about other aspects of his relationships with the federal government.
There are many of us who are beginning to feel rather sorry for Mr. Roblin. I have no doubt that he feels very sorry himself that he ever coined that slogan which I am afraid will never be forgotten, "As Dief did Duff will do." If Mr. Roblin could change it, I think he would say, "As Dief did Duff won't do", if he wanted to make any appeal to the people of Manitoba today. I am not here, of course, to appeal for charity for Mr. Roblin. All I am doing is trying to get this correspondence which has been held up deliberately by this government now for three years, and which the minister gave a very lame excuse for not producing earlier today. I hope he is going to produce it now.
As I say, for three years this correspondence has been held up. Nothing has happened. The legislature has now prorogued for this year, and if anything further is going to be done in co-operation with the federal government there will have to be another session of the legislature for that purpose. As I say, nobody in Manitoba can understand the reason for the delay or what is holding it up. I daresay some of us here with some experience with this government could give the answer. Probably the answer is to be found in a seven letter world starting with "f" and ending with "g". I leave hon. gentlemen opposite to fill in the blanks.


Jacques Flynn: Shall vote 279 carry?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Just before the vote carries I should like to make some passing references on the subject that has just been discussed at some length by the hon. member for Bona-vista-Twillingate. As I explained in my reply this morning, the reason for the delay in tabling the documents has arisen from their interdepartmental nature. Just to demonstrate the desire of my department to be as helpful and co-operative as possible, may I say that I am quite happy to table at this time, if it is the wish of the committee, the documents which come directly under my purview. Where there is interdepartmental involvement, the hon. member will understand that I have


no right to table those documents at this time. However, I shall be happy to let him see the documents which I am sure will ease the problem that has been discussed at some length here today.
It seems to me that we are becoming deeply involved in history during the consideration of these estimates and I feel that it is high time that we should move on to present activities and anticipated future activities. I am not going to pose as an authority on history but there has come to my attention something which I think should be brought before the committee in reference to a historical discussion that took place here last night. It has to do with the highly controversial question as to who first came to Canada's shores. Let me quote from the authorities. The hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate last night was referred to as the "land-locked mariner from Manitoba". I think that was a more accurate description than the member who made it at that time realized because, on looking into the record of an important voyage of discovery-a record that was made in Sir John Barrow's book entitled "Voyages into the Arctic Region", I find that in 1776 a certain Lieutenant Pickersgill, in command of His Majesty's brig the Lion was directed to proceed to Davis strait for the protection of the British whale fishers-


John Whitney Pickersgill: That is right.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: -and then to continue up the strait and explore the coast of Baffin bay. Barrow records the fact that Pickersgill eventually anchored the Lion in a place to which he gave the name "Musquito Cove".
In case the hon. member's colleague from Essex East should feel neglected, I might also remind the committee that the first of these northern explorers, the privateer Captain Frobisher, bore the Christian name of "Martin". That is the contribution I should like to make to this historical discussion. I could add-


John Whitney Pickersgill: You could add more about Pickersgill.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Yes.


Paul Joseph James Martin: You could add more about Martin.


An hon. Member:: Roll in another barrel.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I might say that the descendants of the said Lieutenant Pickersgill have been all at sea ever since.
We have a little bit more time at our disposal at the moment and perhaps, because it seems to be the wish of the members of the committee, I might give answers to some of the specific questions that were raised last evening.

I would reply to the hon. member for Queens-Lunenburg and inform him that one of the subjects he raised, namely the possibility of the blockhouse hill in his constituency being recognized as a historic site, will be considered on the May agenda of the national historic sites and monuments board.
The hon. member for Kenora-Rainy River inquired about progress on the civic centre at Banff national park. X am happy to inform him-and unfortunately he is not in the chamber-that tenders have been asked for in connection with this project and we hope that it will be under way just as quickly as possible. He also inquired whether it was established policy in national parks to assist in the construction of centres of this kind. I should merely like to remind him that Banff is almost a unique community in the national parks system. In fact, so far as I know, there are only two such communities where there is all year round residence. Therefore, this instance might be regarded as almost unique.
The hon. member for Cape Breton North and Victoria made reference to Englishtown. I can assure him that this question will be on the May agenda of the historic sites and monuments board. He will also be interested to know that the HD4 Hydrofoil will be provided with a suitable shelter in the fiscal year 1962-63 according to present plans.
The hon. member for Shelburne-Yarmouth-Clare brought to the attention of the committee some interesting recommendations. I think he is aware of the fact that there is at Yarmouth already a monument to shipbuilding.
I should like to refer back to one matter in particular referred to by the hon. member for Athabasca. I refer to the question of representation by the R.C.M.P. on the Northwest Territories council. I assure him that the contribution made by the R.C.M.P. to the development of the north down through the years is fully recognized by the department of northern affairs. Any change in the membership of the Northwest Territories council is merely in line with the policy to proceed to an autonomous position in the territories just as quickly as circumstances allow. We like to feel that the territories are independent in their governmental function as far as is possible under the present arrangement.
For some number of years on the Northwest Territories council, where there were formerly representatives from the various departments of government, we have been and are now following the policy of bringing in private citizens. In fact, now there are elected members as well as appointed representatives. The Department of National Defence is no longer represented. Neither is there direct representation from the R.C.M.P.
Supply-Northern Affairs However, let me repeat that the continuing contribution of the R.C.M.P. is full recognized.
The hon. member for Athabasca will also be interested to know that the road construction program in Wood Buffalo national park is proceeding according to schedule. By next year we shall have completed the road from Fort Smith through to the western boundary of Wood Buffalo national park. All that will remain for the continuous highway between Vermilion and Fort Smith will be a road built by the provincial government to the boundary of the park. I might also add that the total cost of this project will be $2,340,000.
Those are some specific answers to specific questions. The committee is in a congenial mood this afternoon and I am sure we can proceed to consider further items of the estimates.


Mr. Nixon:: I understood the minister to say that some of the applications for preserving historic sites in Canada are to be dealt with next month. If that is the case, I wonder whether the minister would take a personal look at the old stone house in Sault Ste. Marie and see whether something could not be done to preserve that building as a historic site. It was built in 1812 or 1814 and it is, I believe, the oldest stone building in Ontario north of Toronto.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: As the hon. member has suggested, the historic sites and monuments board will be meeting toward the end of the present month. I shall be happy to look into this question but I should like to remind the hon. member that the basic criterion for having any historic site considered as a national historic site is, of course, the national aspect. It must have national significance. There are many other historic sites which deserve to be commemorated and such commemoration has been undertaken in the past, sometimes by provincial governments and at other times by local bodies. Subject to that reservation I shall be happy to look into the matter.


Mr. Garland:: On several occasions I have raised the question of the proposed United States legislation regarding duty free goods which United States citizens are to be allowed to take back from Canada. I wonder if the minister has anything to say in this regard.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I can assure the hon. member that I have been following this question very closely since it first came under discussion in the house. As he is no doubt aware, the matter is before congress at the present time and to make certain that Canada's viewpoint on this question is in no way misunderstood by the legislators in the United

Supply-Northern Affairs States, I once again, only recently, pointed out through our Department of External Affairs the importance of this subject to Canada and in particular to the Canadian tourist industry.


George Robson Muir: Could I ask the minister to take a good look at the posibility of having Nellie McClung's home in the town of Mani-tou, Manitoba made a historic site? This great Canadian woman lived in this house which has been kept in a good state of preservation during the years when she did much of her writing and it seems to me the people of Manitoba would be very pleased if the minister would have this considered as a historic site.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Since the hon. member for Lisgar is very anxious to commemorate the home of one leading Liberal in Manitoba, may I ask if he would also suggest that the home of the Hon. Thomas Greenaway in Crystal City should also be considered.


George Robson Muir: I did not know it was in order to direct such a question to an ordinary backbencher but I would think that though Mr. Thomas Greenaway is probably one of our better known Manitoba citizens his work is hardly of such a national nature that his home should be enshrined as a national historic site. I would suggest, however, that the hon. member might perhaps consider the home of the Hon. Robert Rogers.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Is it still there?


Douglas Mason Fisher: There is a tolerance and liberality about the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate that I wish I could share, but I cannot reach it. He put on the record his case from the Brandon Sun and the Winnipeg Free Press and, frankly he is so tolerant I cannot understand his reasoning. I did not know anything about the case before he put it so clearly and it seems to me the minister's answers were inadequate.
I should like to remind the minister that several years ago we had a hassle over the Riding Mountain national park situation. I can remember that there were charges and counter-charges of patronage, and the discussion did not simmer down until the hon. member for Brandon-Souris came in with his soft, susurrus voice and settled it all; we really did not believe that patronage could rear its ugly head at the park if the hon. member had any connection with the affair.
I do not think that the passage of these estimates has been marked, so far, with blood and fire, but I might ask the minister to give us some further explanations. I will put a few direct questions to him. Was Mr. Neill a member of his party organization at


any time? Was Mr. Neill by any chance a census enumerator? Did Mr. Neill have any great interest in advertising before? I tried looking through directories of firms in the west-a very inadequate source to look at, I admit-but I could not find any indication that this man had been long in the business. The hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate is not suspicious at all, but for me there is something coincidental about this business starting up in 1957 in relation to this contract and the minister taking over his portfolio. If the minister were to tell me point blank that Conservatives rank first'-and we had some indication of this in connection with the census matter-that would be fine, but I did not realize this applied to such things as advertising contracts.
There is no point in the minister giving to me the same answer he gave to the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate because Cockfield Brown means nought to me though it may mean a great deal to the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate. I believe there is a C.C.F. advertising concern out in Regina but whether it has had any jobs I cannot say. I do not want it to have this job. I would simply like to know if it is a fact that we have here a Conservative who, on the government coming into power, became an advertising agent; and then, when the present minister became minister of northern affairs -an old hometown boy and all that-he was given this contract. Is it as simple as that? Was the contract put out to tender? Did a number of Conservatives bid for it? For all I know there may be a whole bunch of Conservative advertising men in Brandon. I think the minister should give us a more detailed explanation because I am just not as tolerant and liberal today as the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I am sorry that my learned friend did not grasp the full import of the reply I gave to the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate. I thought I had made a complete explanation. The hon. member has gone back into history with reference to Riding Mountain national park and I assure him the reason that particular subject ceased to come under discussion in the house was because the difficulty was straightened out, as he well knows.
Regarding the advertising accounts, I understand that tenders are not involved in the advertising accounts of government departments, particularly with reference to the classified type which has come under discussion today. I would reiterate that it is the publicity media, whether it be the press, magazines, radio, or television, which pays

the service charge on these particular advertisement items. There is no charge to the crown whatsoever.
So far as the qualifications of the manager of the Neill Advertising Agency in Brandon is concerned, I would repeat that he is a very reputable businessman who, at a remarkably young age, has shown considerable enterprise not only in the business world but also in public service.


John Whitney Pickersgill: And in the political world.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: He has been active in the past in the Young Progressive Conservatives' Association, which I think demonstrates he is a man of considerable discernment and wisdom. While checking further regarding his credentials'-this is something I did not know before-I found he is accredited to a reputable advertising agency in Canada.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I am pleased to find this candour at last. It is of assistance. I think the people of Canada will be pleased to know that it is a help to be a young Conservative or a Progressive Conservative if it is desired to acquire these advertising contracts. These are facts of life which are sometimes denied. I am not complaining about this at all but now we know that if one wants an advertising contract with the minister's department it helps if one is a Conservative.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Mr. Chairman, I would like to point out that Mr. Neill's advertising agency is the only one in the city of Brandon, and if there were an advertising agency operated by a C.C.F. supporter we would be pleased to consider him.


Douglas Mason Fisher: What advantage does the city of Brandon have which flows from the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources? I am sure the minister made his offer in respect of all of Canada, but does he intend that all those individuals should line up to see him about an advertising agency? There is an advertising agency in Port Arthur which is run by a Conservative, and I am wondering whether he would be a fair candidate. I suggest that we should let him know about this situation.
I would like to ask the minister a question about something else. I realize he is just getting into his job, and I am sure he is reviewing these things, but the Massey commission made a number of recommendations in relation to certain agencies under the control of the minister's department. I wonder whether the minister would care to comment regarding the steps which have been taken to implement these recommendations, and perhaps comment about those which he does not intend to implement at all. I am
Supply-Northern Affairs not interested in the war museum particularly but much more in regard to situations such as the one discovered in Newfoundland by Mr. Smallwood who said the federal government should be stopped from shanghaiing relics for monuments from the sacred soil of Newfoundland. I believe the Massey commission made certain recommendations in regard to both national relics and monuments, and those bearing a relationship to the United States, and I would like to know what the minister has done in this regard. As far as I am aware there has been no legislation introduced in this house bearing on that subject.
I would also like to ask the minister about the part French Canadians play in the structure of the national museum? We all remember the unfortunate affair involving the separation of Dr. Rousseau. I understand he is now over in Europe carrying out some kind of task. The minister is probably aware that Dr. Rousseau was separated from his rather important job in the department, and I am wondering what has been done in this regard. The Prime Minister is always talking about our bicultural and bilingual country, but it is sometimes difficult to appreciate that our French Canadian representatives have a share in the upper management of these particularly cultural assets, such as the national museum. I wonder whether the minister could let us know what he is doing in regard to seeing that this balance is redressed.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Mr. Chairman, I see my hon. friend is continuing to play his role as a pedagogue in assigning certain research programs to me this afternoon. I assure him I am vitally interested in the recommendations of the Massey commission with respect to many matters, particularly those which come within the purview of my department.
He will remember that one of the recommendations had to do with the protection of archaeological sites in Canada, and the artifacts from those sites. Up until quite recently many of these irreplaceable archaeological treasures had been lost to Canada by reason of uncontrolled development and exploitation. We have been very active in the protection of these sites, mainly through encouragement in the training of Canadian anthropologists. This is something which cannot be resolved overnight by this method; that is, by ensuring that there are a sufficient number of qualified Canadian professional personnel to take care of this important work.
One of the difficulties in finding suitable bilingual staff for our museums arises from the fact we do not have a sufficiently large number of Canadians with the necessary professional training who possess bilingual

Supply-Northern Affairs ability. I am happy to say that we have made certain progress in this regard. The national museum staff includes 21 members who speak French fluently, of whom four are professional scientists. A number of other staff members have a working knowledge of the French language, but great difficulty has been found in filling some of the highly specialized positions at the museum with staff who are bilingual and it has been necessary in some cases to find applicants from outside Canada. We are quite confident that, with the encouragement which has been given to training Canadians, this difficulty will be resolved within a comparatively short time.


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Mr. Chairman, I wish to ask the minister a few questions in regard to the item covering museums. I would like to know whether Dr. Rousseau has been replaced by a French speaking employee at the museum.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Mr. Chairman, there has been no permanent replacement found as yet. This is the human history side of the museum's activities and the director of the museum, Dr. Russell, is serving in an acting capacity until such time as a suitable candidate is found.


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Do I understand from the minister's remarks that he expects to choose a French speaking candidate for this position?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Mr. Chairman, we are seeking very diligently for the right sort of candidate, and if we find a French speaking candidate with the necessary qualifications we shall be happy to consider him.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Mr. Chairman, I should like to ask the minister a question in relation to national parks, and the matter of skiing. I would like to know what representations have been made in the past by the Canadian ski patrol association in respect of extending its activities into national park areas or, if not extending their activities into that field, perhaps in helping to standardize safety patrol procedures which may be carried out at present by national parks personnel.
In saying this I am not suggesting any criticism of what the parks may be doing- I do not know what they are doing-but I should like to know whether in this rather fairly rapidly growing safety movement in the field of skiing, and skiing is the fastest growing sport we have that relates to tourism, there is any liaison established between the parks and the skiing patrol association and, of course, the C.A.S.A. itself, which is in a sense the parent organization of the Canadian ski patrol.


I have one last question in relation to historic sites and monuments that I should like to put to the minister. A group of the citizens of Fort William have become enthusiastic about re-creating the old Fort William. A committee has been organized, I think it is called the committee to restore the old fort, and it has sent letters to a number of people, including the members for Fort William and Port Arthur and also the Prime Minister. Having regard to our present budgetary position, 1 was somewhat amazed at the very optimistic reply the Prime Minister gave to this association, indicating that there is an excellent chance that government support of a very substantial kind will be available to renovate this fort or to create the old fort anew. Since the scale of expenditure to recreate the fort would be in the nature of several hundred thousand dollars and since, as I said, the Prime Minister was, in the letter I read, fairly optimistic about it, can the minister indicate whether this whole question has been brought to the attention of his department, and whether the Fort William fort is one of the projects that is being appraised or analysed at the present time?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I am very pleased to see the interest of the hon. member in the matter of skiing development in our national parks. Obviously he has caught the enthusiasm of the Minister of Trade and Commerce in this respect. I do not know whether he himself is personally a skier, but I can assure him that one of the activities we regard as highly suitable to the fundamental purpose of the national parks is that of winter skiing. Boating, hiking, swimming, and all those activities which are closely associated with the enjoyment of nature are the type of recreational activities we like to encourage.
In the mountain parks, of course, the skiing development has gone on much more rapidly than in other areas. I am happy to inform the hon. member that in Riding Mountain national park there is a ski site under development at the present time. I think perhaps there is a slight misunderstanding. The national parks branch as such does not actually participate in the skiing operation itself. It provides the site and develops it and then it is turned over to private enterprise to operate as a recreational feature.
In regard to the safety patrol group, I can assure the hon. member also that wherever there is skiing activity in our national parks the skiers themselves see to it that they have close liaison with the ski patrol.
With respect to the other question, the old Fort William site has been very thoroughly examined and investigated by the historic

sites and monument board. As the hon. member knows, this board is made up of outstanding historians in Canada, including men of the stature of Dr. Creighton. They are selected to advise the government on the historic facts surrounding those various sites.
The difficulty in connection with Fort William-and I believe this information has been communicated to the hon. member-arises from the fact that the original site is no longer available. We cannot have the historic site, of course, if it is no longer available. That has been the fundamental difficulty in connection with the development of this historic site.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I have one further question to ask the minister. It relates to a private member's public bill on the order paper at the present time. Since the minister heads the department responsible for this whole question of historic sites and monuments, I wonder whether he has given any consideration to helping the hon. member for Brantford, or helping to sponsor as a government measure, relating to the idea of creating a national holiday of the birthday anniversary of Sir John A. Macdonald? Has any consideration been given to that matter by this particular committee? I know it is an abstract thing rather than something concrete, but after all the creation of a day every year as an annual holiday would be a monument, I am sure the minister would agree. I should like to know whether he has given any consideration to it?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Oh, Mr. Chairman, although my department ranges far and wide, and although the hon. member does not think I do anything, let me say that despite the fact that we are a busy department, this is one function that does not come under my purview. The question that he has raised would be regarded more as a historic institution than a historic site. I mean that in a sociological sense, because it is certainly true that Sir John A. as the founder of this nation, as the man who first established the national policy which made this country great, should be commemorated in this way. The present government is carrying on this national policy and moving Canada forward from strength to strength and I am sure we appreciate the hon. member's recognition of the fact.


John Whitney Pickersgill: If we can get back once again into the twentieth century, sir, I should like to ask the minister whether Fort Rodd in Victoria has been taken over by the historic sites and monuments board? Can he tell me at the same time on what date this request was first made or the matter was first
Supply-Northern Affairs brought to the attention of the historic sites and monuments board, and on what date they made their decision?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I have not the specific dates referred to by the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate. He himself implied just a few moments ago in a reply that he did not carry these detailed statistics around in his head, and neither do I. But I do assure him that Fort Rodd has been taken over by the historic sites and monuments board, and it has been recognized by that board as a national historic site.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Perhaps during the course of the passage of the estimates the minister can get the information and give me the date on which the matter was first brought to the attention of the historic sites and monuments board and the date on which the decision was made. I should really like to have that information later on but I am not pressing for it immediately.


George Ewart Nixon: Mr. Chairman, I have before me some figures on several items of the estimates of the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources. One of them relates to travelling and removals. The figures in 1957 were $625,854. The estimate for this year is twice that, $1,273,968. I should like the minister to tell us if he will the reason for this and also for the increase in telephones and telegraphs which in 1957 amounted to $40,869. The figures are over three times that in the estimates for 1961-62, $127,811.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Mr. Chairman, as was pointed out several times during the course of this discussion, there has been a great increase in activity in the north during the past two years, and the increase in expenditures to which the hon. member has referred is related directly to this tremendous upsurge of northern development. Transportation is one of the major difficulties in northern Canada, as the hon. member will appreciate. Northern Canada constitutes 40 per cent of our total land area; it is rich in minerals and resources of all kinds, including human resources. This increased cost is merely a reflection of the increased activity and the same applies, of course, to the cost of telephones, telegrams and so on. There was a time not long ago when such communication was quite impossible, and this is all evidence of the tremendous development taking place in the north.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, I have had a few minutes to look at this correspondence with the Manitoba government which the minister explained was incomplete, although I must say I have not been able to peruse it very carefully. I think the minister owes
4424	HOUSE OF
Supply-Northern Affairs the committee a better explanation of the delay of the government in dealing with the Winnipeg floodway than simply to read about Lieutenant Richard Pickersgill who went to Baffin land in the late eighteenth century. I have here, for example, a letter written by Mr. Roblin, the premier of Manitoba, on February 4, 1960; not 1961, but 1960. The letter was addressed to the minister's predecessor, of course, who may have been absorbed with visions at that time that did not embrace the Red river. The second paragraph reads as follows:
I am naturally pleased to have this advice-
The advice referred to was that contained in the previous paragraph, that a member of the water resources branch had been appointed to consult with the officials of Manitoba.
-and I hope that the necessary approval will be forthcoming in time to allow us to take advantage of the coming construction season.
That was the construction season of 1960. February 4, 1960 happened to be the same day, of course, that the Minister of Labour was on the air on "The Nation's Business" telling us that the recession was over, and it may be that in February 1960 the government did not think it was important to have work in Manitoba in the summer of 1960. However, before the summer of 1960 was over even the most obtuse members of the government must have been convinced that any project that would supply more work would have been a useful thing to undertake. But Mr. Roblin, of course, did not get any construction under way. He did not get any approvals in 1960.
Then there are some other bits and pieces of correspondence involving other departments that would have to be fitted into the jigsaw puzzle but those departments have not yet seen lit to bring down their correspondence. However, I have here a letter which it is not possible for me to understand fully because the letter in reply to which this letter is written to the present minister by the minister of agriculure of Manitoba is not here. The letter is dated January 3, 1961, and it makes certain proposals with respect to getting on with the floodway. I gather that the minister of agriculture of Manitoba has ministerial responsibility for this project which the Manitoba government seems to want to carry out but in which the federal government seems very reluctant to take any part notwithstanding its promises of 1957 and 1958. Let me read the last paragraph of Mr. Hutton's pathetic appeal in January of 1961 when unemployment had reached the highest peak it had reached since the thirties. Mr. Hutton wrote as follows:


I would request your early consideration of the above proposal, your advice as to whether it meets your approval and if so, assurance that your government would be prepared to include the cost of the above services as part of the shareable costs of the floodway project.
I draw attention to these words, and point out this is from a Tory government, a very friendly government, one supposes. This was in January of this year.
I am sure you realize that it is imperative that this project get under way as quickly as possible but that before doing so the very considerable amount of planning and design work must be undertaken. Your earliest possible consideration and advice in respect to this matter would therefore be appreciated.
That was on January 3 of this year. I look at the calendar and see it is the 5th of May. The record is not quite equal to that of the Minister of Finance with respect to depressed areas but very nearly so. Four months have gone by and there has been no answer. I assume there has been no answer because if there had been one I assume it would have been produced with the correspondence. If this is the way the government treats a friendly Tory government, you can imagine the way it treats governments that do not have the advantage of having in them young Conservatives, as the hon. member for Port Arthur pointed out. I think the minister should tell us what has happened with respect to this floodway.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Are you going to run in Manitoba in the next election?


John Whitney Pickersgill: No.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: It is too bad, Mr. Chairman, that the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillin-gate ever forsook Manitoba.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Not too bad for Manitoba though.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: We would have a wonderful advocate had he not shaken the dust of that province from his feet and sought fame and fortune in eastern Canada. In reading the letter he has been rather selective.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I read just the last paragraph and I said so.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I think that reading just the last paragraph did not give the full purport of the document. Actually what the minister of agriculture of Manitoba was discussing was the idea of setting up a joint committee to consider the engineering problems with respect to the floodway development. I am happy to assure the hon. member that that committee is operating and busily engaged in working on the necessary details.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Would the minister tell us what the division of costs is going to be for this project?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: As I have intimated when questioned on this point on earlier occasions, this is a subject that is under negotiation and it is one of the reserved items in the documents.


John Whitney Pickersgill: The Manitoba government cannot proceed unless they do what Mr. Rob-lin, I thought rather foolishly, threatened to do on one occasion, pay for it themselves. He did not know with whom he was dealing when he made that remark, and I suspect it was a bad day for Manitoba when he made it. The question of the division of costs has been discussed for two years. It has been discussed in the legislature and, judging from the debates which I have read and some of which I had in my hand a few moments ago but sent to the Hansard office, Mr. Roblin has been red-faced and embarrassed over this matter because his friends were not coming across. It seems to me that surely this is not such an insuperable problem. Surely the government can make up its mind about a question of this sort if indeed it ever intends to do anything about it, which a lot of us suspect it does not.


Douglas Mason Fisher: There is one point about which I have not asked the minister. I do not think it is a particularly delicate one, but several months ago I noticed in the Manchester Guardian a news story to the effect that the bishop of the Arctic was in Britain recruiting young men in particular to work in the Arctic. I am sorry I do not have the quotation here. I could not find it in my file. However, I think it is fair to say that the gist of it was that it was extremely difficult to obtain within Canada itself the kind of people to carry on the many necessary chores, not particularly in religious work, although that was involved, but in teaching and other fields. Can the minister indicate to me as someone who does not know very much about the matter whether it is a fact that the Anglican schools are having great difficulty in securing teachers and that they have to recruit from outside of Canada in order to keep the facilities operating?
I should like to know also, if this should be the case, if these schools in the north run by the Anglican church are being staffed by people from England? Is any consideration being given to giving some kind of assistance so that Canadian teachers can be put in these schools?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: In reply to this question I shall have to correct a misunderstanding. The schools in the Arctic are federal schools; they are not church schools as such. The
Supply-Northern Affairs churches have the responsibility of operating the residential hostels, which are a very important adjunct to our school operation because of the distances involved. They are federal government schools, and are operated as such.
In so far as the problem of staffing the schools in the north is concerned, I shall be quite frank and say there is some difficulty in getting suitable candidates as teachers. It was because of this situation that I suggested the hon. member might be interested in going north. I assure him, in reply to what the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate said, that should he indicate his desire to go north his application would be duly processed by the civil service. It is done in that manner so that we can get the best possible candidates.
While it is difficult to get suitable candidates, I might also add that I am informed each and every teacher in the federal schools in the Arctic is a Canadian. I am very happy to inform the committee that with the growing interest in the north, more and more of our young men and young women are willing to come forward and pioneer in this new frontier.


Douglas Mason Fisher: In so far as this point is concerned, one of the reasons for my misunderstanding was probably the explanation the minister gave some time ago in connection with the difficulties of teaching French in northern Quebec and Labrador. The minister's answer seemed to stress the Anglican religion of the people, and I assumed this meant the framework of the school system still had a religious bias or religious foundation. I quite clearly gained the impression from the reported remarks of the bishop of the Arctic that he was recruiting for more than just members of the clergy to go into the north.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: No, Mr. Chairman, I can assure the hon. member that he was recruiting missionaries for work in the north. It is unfortunate the wrong impression was left or created by the reply to the question the other morning. The denominational aspects in our Arctic schools enter in in relation to the selection of teachers. Where there is a greater percentage of Anglican adherents, the teacher is from the Anglican faith. Where there is a substantial majority of the Roman Catholic faith, the teacher is of the Roman Catholic faith.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I should like to ask the
minister to clarify his statement. The minister is talking about schools in the Arctic. The question was asked in relation to Eskimo schools in the province of Quebec. The minister is not suggesting that his department is running schools in the province of Quebec?

Supply-Northern Affairs


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Yes, Mr. Chairman. If the hon. gentleman will examine his map of Canada, he will find there is an area of the Arctic in the province of Quebec.


John Whitney Pickersgill: That is not my question at all. I asked if the department of northern affairs is conducting any schools in the province of Quebec?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Yes. It has been pointed out to me, Mr. Chairman, that there are eleven Eskimo schools operated by the department of northern affairs in northern Quebec.


John Whitney Pickersgill: There are, of course, none in the province of Newfoundland?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: No, Mr. Chairman, the situation in Newfoundland is quite distinct. As the hon. member knows, I would imagine, under the terms of confederation there is no differentiation between the various residents of the province of Newfoundland. The Indians and Eskimos are completely integrated into the population.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I do not want to lead the minister down the garden path. The minister, I think, knows there is no differentiation between the Eskimo and other people of Canada, but only between the Indians and the other people of Canada. The only people who have any special status in any part of Canada are the Indians. It is not because of any special status that anything is being done for the Eskimos, it is because of their remoteness. Most of them, I suppose, before confederation was completed in 1949, lived in the Northwest Territories, not in the provinces. There was no appreciable number of Eskimos in the provinces except in northern Manitoba and Quebec. It may well be that with the entry of Newfoundland into confederation, the majority of the Eskimos, or a considerable proportion of them, are now in the provinces.
I noticed the undertaking the minister gave to my colleague from Grand Falls-White Bay-Labrador the other day. It does seem to me that there should be equal treatment for the Eskimos in all parts of Canada. It is true that, with respect to the Indians, when confederation was completed in 1949 it was decided not to bring the Indians of Newfoundland under the Indian Act. I think that was a wise decision. Perhaps a mistake was made at that time, which I hope is going to be repaired in time, in that notwithstanding the fact these Indians were not going to come under the Indian Act, they were not, as they should be, treated just as well by the federal government as are other Indians in other parts of Canada. However, I know that is not the minister's responsibility.


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: I should like to add a few words on this problem, Mr. Chairman. In 1955, I believe, the present minister was a member of the special committee on estimates. It is reported that when we came to the question of education of the Eskimos, Mr. Lesage, the then minister of northern affairs, told the committee he had been in touch with the representatives of both the churches concerned in Canada. Does the minister not feel it would be wise to consult with these authorities before making any plans to educate these Eskimos, and to consult with the Roman Catholic and Anglican churches as Mr. Lesage did in 1955?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I am informed that the closest possible consultation continues between the department of northern affairs and the bishops of the respective Anglican and Roman Catholic churches.


John Whitney Pickersgill: There is just one question I should like to ask the minister. Could he say what government was in office in Quebec when these Eskimo schools were established there?


Mr. Pigeon:: Mr. Lesage was minister at the time.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I am just trying to discover the date when these schools were opened. It was 1949.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I can answer the question for the minister. If the schools were established in 1949, Mr. Lesage was not a member of the government of Canada. However, Mr. Maurice Duplessis was the premier of Quebec, and that great champion of provincial autonomy permitted the federal government to establish these schools in the province of Quebec. It does seem to me that little bit of history ought to be put on the record.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I know the minister said that the schools in the north are federal schools. He also gave the impression that, in essence, these denominational schools, as he called them I think, in Quebec, were sectarian schools. What I want to know is this. As the educational system develops and as we get into the ambitions of the department as expressed in the annual report to give these Indian children more extensive education at a higher level, for example, as to these technical schools and trade institutes, are they going to continue within the sectarian framework or are they going to be more like, let us say, the schools to which we are accustomed in Manitoba or Ontario?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I think I should point out that the school situation in the north is rather the result of a historical development. The church missionaries were pioneers in the

north. Both the Roman Catholic church and the Anglican church missionaries were the first to bring education to our northern Canadians. They had established certain priorities in this regard. When the decision was made to provide adequate education for all the young people of Canada's northland, the outstanding contribution of the churches in the north had to be taken into consideration. That is the reason for the denominational criterion with respect to the hiring of teachers.
So far as the vocational schools are concerned, I am happy to inform members that in schools of this type catering to children of the high school level and the teen-age group, we are hoping to move them forward to a completely integrated school. This objective has already been accomplished at Yellowknife. I trust that the hon. member can travel down north on some occasion and I think he will be impressed with the educational program at the Sir John Franklin school at Yellowknife where we have a complete integrated educational program with Indians, Eskimos and white children working side by side as Canadians.


Douglas Mason Fisher: The minister may remember that one of the recommendations of the parliamentary committee on mines, forests and waters was that arrangements be made to take members of parliament on tours to see these facilities. I am afraid I am not in a position to do this on my own funds. I would have to be, in essence, a freeloader if I were going to do it.
I should like to get back to what the minister has explained and again this is a matter of curiosity. The position in relation to the schools is this. The minister says that we are carrying on historic tradition. However, in essence it is substantiating in religion a status quo. I think he would agree with that statement. I just want to put this question. With regard to education has there been any other denomination or sect interested in proselytizing or doing missionary work in the north? Have they been interested in the present school set-up or have they been critical of it?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: As I indicated just a few minutes ago, the two pioneer churches in the north have been the Anglican church and the Roman Catholic church. No other denomination has expressed any interest in educational programs in the north.


The Acting Chairman (Mr. Chown):: I recognize the hon. member for Scarborough.


Mr. McGee:: I have been trying to catch your eye, Mr. Chairman, for quite some time now in order to ask the hon. member for Port
Supply-Northern Affairs Arthur, and the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate who has been monopolizing the time of the committee here this afternoon, whether they could not pep up their delivery a little bit. I noticed a group of students were falling asleep and the guard was having a difficult time keeping them awake. It was only when the minister started to make his incisive remarks that this tendency was restrained in any way.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I will endeavour to oblige the hon. member for York-Scarborough and disturb his own slumbers by reading a little bit of an extract from the May 10, 1960 issue of the Halifax Chronicle-Herald which is rapidly becoming my favourite newspaper. May 10, 1960 was 370 or rather-I am doing my arithmetic the wrong way-360 days ago. Certain events which had not come to an end were then transpiring in the province of Nova Scotia.


Robert Jardine McCleave: It was 370 days ago.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Was I right the first time?


Robert Jardine McCleave: Yes, you were right the first time. Then you made the usual unfortunate mistake of changing it.


John Whitney Pickersgill: As a matter of fact, I will leave the arithmetic to the senior member for Halifax or the taller member for Halifax who really does not have much else to keep him occupied since the divorce committee ceased its operations.


Robert Jardine McCleave: I am keeping you honest; and that is quite a job.


John Whitney Pickersgill: This item is headed:
"Nowlan Promises Big Power-Net Spending." It is under dateline of Annapolis Royal and it reads as follows:
National Revenue Minister George Nowlan said here Monday night that the federal government planned to spend a large amount this year on the development of power between Nova Scotia and New Brunswick.
Mr. Nowlan was one-
There is a good deal about where he was speaking and so on. I will spare the minister any embarrassment by failing to identify that. Mr. Nowlan went on to speak about many things that have happened or which he asserted had happened down there and then he went on to say this:
This year, ... it was proposed to spend a large amount on the power pooling project. This would reduce the cost of thermo-power development to less than seven cents per kilowatt.
When we get to the appropriate item

and I am just serving notice on the minister now so that his officials will have a chance to be prepared-I think the committee would be interested in a full report of what has happened in the years since this statement was

Supply-Northern Affairs made and particularly the extent to which the cost of power has been reduced.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Before this item passes I should like to expand the reply I made to the hon. member for Port Arthur and indicate that the information I gave applied to the Northwest Territories. The Yukon Territory again is another situation. So far as the Indian population is concerned in the Yukon Territory, the hon. member for the Yukon informs me that the Baptist denomination has been very active there.


Gordon Campbell Chown: Shall item 279 carry?


John Richard Garland: I should like to ask the minister a question in order to get an explanation. If I heard him correctly, on two occasions, I think-once since lunch and once before lunch-he indicated that the advertising contracted for by the government and paid for by the government, in respect to that 15 per cent slice off the top to the agency was at no cost to the government. How does he support an argument of that kind, where it is contracted for by the government and paid by the government?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I am informed that this is normal procedure in advertising agencies. Businesses of all kinds and government departments, rather than involve their own personnel in placing these advertisements seek the services of qualified representatives or agencies which have experience in the field. They find that a much more efficient operation can be carried out. The amount of business that is handled by these agencies is in various sums which do not involve any profit so far as the company or the organization or the government placing the advertisement are concerned. They merely indicate that these advertisements are to be placed. The firm or the agency concerned does all the necessary work and the percentage is added to the cost of the medium involved in the advertising. The medium pays a 15 per cent service charge.


John Richard Garland: I am well aware of the mechanics of it but surely the minister is not suggesting that this can be done at no cost to the advertiser. Surely this is a built-in part of the rate which a particular medium might be charging. To suggest that a 15 per cent slice off the top is not paid in the end by the government is, I think, unrealistic.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: If the hon. member would consult any reputable advertising agency he would find that this is the practice.


John Whitney Pickersgill: The money comes out of the treasury just the same.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: No. If the government or a company were to place their advertisements directly with the various media it would cost them precisely the same as it would to use the services of an advertising agency.


John Richard Garland: It is a thin argument, when these lush contracts are passed out to the political friends of the minister, to say that it is done at no cost to the federal treasury.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I think the only way to put this point across would be to ask the hon. member to approach any advertising agency. I think it would inform him that it is the publicity medium which pays the 15 per cent.


Mr. Macdonnell:: I am not sure whether the minister qualified one statement which he made-a statement which devastated me- to the effect that only two churches had shown any interest in education in the north, namely the Roman Catholic church and the Anglican church. The Presbyterian church has always prided itself on its interest in education, and to be left in outer darkness is a shattering experience. I wonder if the minister could qualify his statement.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: The Presbyterian church has, of course, been a pioneer in the field of education for many years, even for centuries, but as far as the Northwest Territories are concerned the only two denominations which have been active are the Anglican church and the Roman Catholic church. In the Yukon Territory, going back to the days of the gold rush, I imagine, representatives of the Baptist church have been active among the Indian population. We have two problems in this regard, responsibility for Indian education and responsibility for Eskimo education. I am referring to the Eskimo population. As far as I know there has been no direct participation by the Presbyterian church but I would, of course, agree, that indirectly through various voluntary groups which are now working in northern Canada-the Cana-dian-Eskimo-Indian committee for example which brings together representatives from the women's institutes and various other groups in Canada-there is a genuine interest being shown in all problems with respect to the human resources in our north.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Perhaps I can throw a little light on this question. While what the minister has said is correct, referring to the Northwest Territories as "the north" is using the word "north" in a restricted sense. I was the superintendent general of Indian affairs for three years. I think many people regard northern Ontario and the northern part of the provinces as being the north, as well as the Northwest Territories, and in both those areas the Presbyterian church and the United

Church of Canada have been very active and they have a considerable number of schools there, as well as the Anglican church and the Catholic church.


John Richard Garland: Last year officials of the department visited the United Kingdom and western Europe in an attempt to assess the tourist potential there in the light of the growing economic strength of those countries. Would the minister now comment on the result of this examination and tell us what is being done to encourage tourist traffic from western Europe?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Yes. I am glad the hon. member for Nipissing asked this question, because we are pleased with the results of that visit. It was a fact finding trip and I have had reports on the results.
The various Canadian transportation companies have been active in Europe for several years, now-the railways and T.C.A.-and it was found that they are doing an outstanding job in representing Canada. However, strong recommendations were made as a result of the trip that there should be some direct representation of the Canadian government travel bureau in the United Kingdom to serve that market as well as the European market generally.
This whole matter is under very active consideration. We are hoping that at the next tourist convention sponsored by the Canadian government tourist bureau the guest speaker will be one of the leading figures from the tourist industry in the United Kingdom. It is apparent that the best market for increased travel to Canada exists in the United Kingdom, West Germany, the Netherlands, France and Switzerland, to give some specific information which has been brought to my attention as a result of the visit. In all those countries the standard of living has risen remarkably. Foreign exchange restrictions have been lessened or eliminated, and the economies are buoyant. The best possibility for an immediate increase in tourist traffic to Canada is in the United Kingdom. All in all, we can conclude that the tour was successful. The information derived will provide the basis of constructive activity along these lines.


John Richard Garland: I have understood the minister correctly, the government, as a result of this trip or survey last year, has not taken any specific action.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: There is nothing before parliament at the present time but we are optimistic that we shall have something to present to the house next year.


Mr. Southam:: I should like to associate myself with other hon. members, on behalf
Supply-Northern Affairs of my constituents, and myself, in congratulating the minister upon his appointment to his new office as the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources. The constituency of Moose Mountain is, of course, in close proximity to that of Brandon-Souris, and this is another reason for wishing the hon. gentleman well in his new post.
Before this item passes I should like to ask the minister a question, and my question is this. Last year I made a discourse in this chamber at some length on the circumstances as far as national parks are concerned. I pointed out that the great central province of Saskatchewan has only one national park whereas some of the neighbouring provinces such as Alberta, and British Columbia have four each. I also pointed out that while the national park of Waskesiu in the northern part of our province is a very fine one it is far distant from the main centres of population. I am wondering whether the department has given any consideration to the expansion of its national park program in the province from which I come.
I should like to direct the minister's attention to another question and it has to do with the possibility of designating Can-nington manor as a historic site. This is a building of an unusual and distinctive type which was put up, I think, in the eighteenth century by English people who established there what might be called a piece of old England. It is equipped with stables, a race track and other adjuncts to elegant English country life; for instance, the sport of hunting was practised around the manor and continued for some time. I thought I should like to bring this matter to the attention of the minister and to ask whether his officials could not consider the possibility of establishing this building as a historic site.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I am aware of both the issues referred to by my neighbour across the border in Saskatchewan, and I know of his continuing interest in these matters.
With reference to national parks, I can assure hon. members that the department is always happy to consider suggestions for the expansion of our national parks system. However, one of the basic problems in this regard is that any area to be considered as a national park must be made available by provincial authorities, free of encumbrances. This information is perhaps pertinent to some of the comments made by hon. members from the maritimes. Various suggestions are put forward from time to time regarding areas which might be suitable for national parks, but my department can take no action until the provincial government has first indicated it is willing to turn over the lands for national

Supply-Northern Affairs park purposes. On that basis we are happy to hear representations at any time.
In regard to the Cannington manor, which is a replica of an old English estate in the heart of the prairies going back to the early days of settlement, again this would have to be cleared by the historic sites and monuments board, to determine whether it meets the necessary criteria enabling it to be established as a national historic site. If hon. members can persuade that board in this regard we will be agreeable to taking the necessary steps.


Alexis Pierre Caron: Mr. Chairman, a few moments ago the minister referred to an overseas delegation in regard to Canada's tourist industry. In this field we have received quite a number of publications originating with this department. I wonder whether the minister could tell me how many of these tourist industry pamphlets are printed in French only, how many in English only, and how many in both French and English?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Mr. Chairman, I am informed that up to the present date the activities of the Canadian government travel bureau have been restricted almost to the United States market except for that delegation which was sent to Europe last year. Our operations have been carried out through the offices in New Fork and Chicago. This year, as the hon. member knows, we are going to open a tourist bureau on the west coast of the United States at San Francisco.
Because of this situation, the only demand for tourist publications is received from English speaking areas and pamphlets are designed entirely to serve that market. Of course, when we actively seek to attract European tourists, and if and when we establish a travel bureau in Europe, we will have to consider the problem of cultivating tourists from France and other parts of the continent by the use of multi-language pamphlets and programs.


Alexis Pierre Caron: Does the minister not think that in order to attract Belgians, French, Swiss and perhaps individuals from West Germany, it should be much more effective if our publications were printed in French? I can furnish the minister with a number of bilingual publications, and I suggest our own publications could be printed in both English and French without the loss of any advantage, and without an increase in volume of paper. Perhaps the pamphlets I have would be of assistance to the minister in his consideration regarding the printing of this type of publication in both languages.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Mr. Chairman, as I have indicated, when we begin to work directly with


a view to acquiring tourists from Europe we will be faced with the necessity of having bilingual publications, or perhaps trilingual publications. We will be then attempting to cultivate this market in Europe and will have to do so by using the different languages, but up until the present time our operation has been restricted exclusively to the United States market.


Alexis Pierre Caron: Does the minister intend to wait until he has an establishment in Europe before making these publications bilingual? I would suggest there is another consideration involved, and that is, if these publications were printed in French and English the people around the world would realize that Canada is in fact a bilingual country. These people might otherwise think, when they see our publications, that bilingualism in Canada exists only in text books and nowhere else.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Mr. Chairman, this branch operates on a limited budget, and the main interest has been to stimulate the tourist industry in the United States. Many developments are taking place in regard to our tourist promotional program, and I would suggest that as we approach Canada's centennial we will have to considerably broaden the scope of our activity in order to ensure that the true nature of Canada is presented, and our bicultural and bilingual aspects will have to be conveyed to the potential touring public, particularly from Europe. I do not know whether there would be any particular advantage in presenting the bilingual aspect to the United States tourists, but that is something I shall have to consider further.


Alexis Pierre Caron: I would suggest that the advantage involved here would be that of presenting a true picture of Canada to these people from outside, so that they should know there are a number of French speaking Canadians in this country. Regarding the limited budget, to which the minister referred, I should suggest that one of the pamphlets I have in my office contains only one page of pictures and could have been printed in French as well as in English with the addition of one sheet, and the inclusion of French captions under the pictures appearing on that page, with very little cost because of the very small increase in the amount of paper and practically no increase in the amount of ink. This could have been done at no extra cost if someone had only thought about it.
(Translation):


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: I would like to put a supplementary question to the minister.
At the time Mr. Lesage was heading the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources, were the Canadian government

travel bureau publications issued in both English and French, even when intended tor the United States? To follow up the question put by the hon. member for Hull, was the literature issued at that time in the United States by the Canadian government travel bureau bilingual or unilingual?
(Text):


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Mr. Chairman, these publications have always been printed in one language.
(Translation):


Alexis Pierre Caron: The question just raised is a purely political one and can hardly improve the situation. I would therefore point out to the hon. member for Joliette-L'Assomption-Montcalm (Mr. Pigeon) that even if mistakes were made in the past, that is no justification for future governments repeating the same mistakes. On the other hand, if the question raised by the hon. member was merely intended to compare past activities to present activities, he was wrong. We want improvements for the future, even if we have to get them through the present government.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: I do not object to what the hon. member for Hull has just said. On the contrary, I favour his suggestion. I feel sure the minister and the officials of his department will consider the question and try to see that Canada be known throughout the world as a bi-ethnic country.


Alexis Pierre Caron: Then, how does Mr. Lesage come into the picture?


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Lesage has been derelict in his duty.


Alexis Pierre Caron: I am prepared to admit that. (Text):


Jacques Flynn: Order. Shall vote 279 carry?


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
281.	Contributions to the provinces, pursuant to agreements entered into with the approval of the governor in council, by Canada with the provinces, of amounts equal to one half of the amounts confirmed by the provinces as having been spent by them for campground and picnic area developments, $1,700,000.
(Translation):
Jean-Paul Deschatelets: I understand that item 281 deals with contributions to the provinces on a 50 per cent basis for campground and picnic area developments.
Mr. Chairman, in the last elections, several of our Conservative friends from Quebec denounced all these joint programs as being interference with the autonomy of the provinces. Just recently, the leader of the opposition in Quebec also denounced those
Supply-Northern Affairs programs. So that our Conservative friends from Quebec may clearly indicate whether or not they agree with the policy of the Union Nationale, I see no better way than to call for a vote on the item when the hon. members have completed their remarks. I therefore ask that a vote be taken.
(Text):


Mr. Denis:: I should like to ask the minister a question on this item of $1,700,000. If I understand aright, this has to do with a joint agreement between the dominion government and the provinces. I think the federal government pays one half of the amount of the contribution. Since the inception of this scheme, how much money has been spent by this government and what provinces have entered the joint agreement, including the province of Quebec?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Mr. Chairman, this program has been operating since 1958. I believe the hon. member has asked for the total spent since that time. As illustrated in tabular form, up to the end of 1960 the totals were as follows:
Province	Amount
British Columbia	 $ 1,028,468.11
Alberta	 588,830.17
Saskatchewan	 443,319.14
Manitoba	 373,200.96
Ontario	 2,074,849.57
New Brunswick	 115,378.07
Nova Scotia	 60,402.95
Prince Edward Island	 2,120.00
Newfoundland	 54,345.77


Azellus Denis: What about Quebec?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Quebec did not enter the program until the current year. There has been an expenditure on the winter works program of $9,915. There has been no expenditure under the trans-Canada highway program.
Item agreed to: Yeas, 53; nays, nil.
282.	Contributions to the provinces to assist in the development of roads leading to resources in accordance with agreements entered into by Canada and the provinces, $12,000,000.


Mr. Granger:: Mr. Chairman, I should like, if I may, to ask the minister whether he would consider a road into Labrador. I have in mind the announcement which he made in the house on Wednesday, part of which said in effect that where there are two companies operating in the northland the federal government would build a road to that area and pay 100 per cent of the cost. I should like to call his attention to the fact that in Carol lake and lake Wabush, which is one area in Labrador, there are two big mining developments. I would be very happy indeed if the minister would tell us that he is going to build a road from, say, the north shore

Supply-Northern Affairs of the St. Lawrence into that area, or from Goose Bay into that area, which would make me happier still.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Mr. Chairman, the roads to resources program applies, of course, only to the provinces. The announcement I made the other day concerned our access road program in the territories where the federal government has exclusive responsibility. Under the roads to resources program we accept recommendations from the provincial governments and these recommendations are processed for the necessary criteria pertaining to roads to resources. We are happy to entertain any recommendation by the provincial governments.


Azellus Denis: Mr. Chairman, at the end of the discussion of this item I should like you to call the yeas and nays because this important item relates to a large amount of money, namely $12 million.
I should like to know first from the minister how much money has been spent by the government under this kind of subvention to the provinces? I should like to have a breakdown of the amount by provinces up to the present time.
The minister knows that since the inception of this agreement the province of Quebec has always refused to enter into an agreement with the federal government because the premier of the province held that it was an encroachment on provincial autonomy. I know that all the Conservative members from Quebec and even the Conservative ministers from that province campaigned in the provincial elections on behalf of Maurice Duples-sis who always objected to these agreements. I should like to know how they could tell the people of Quebec that this was an encroachment on the autonomy of that province and then come into this house and say they were in favour of this encroachment on the autonomy of the province of Quebec. If they do not want this item to pass because it is an encroachment on the autonomy of Quebec, I wonder why they would vote for it? If they do not approve of the previous governments of the province of Quebec they should say so.
Every time we come to items of this kind we never hear from these Conservative members from the province of Quebec. They are very brave when they are talking to a Conservative meeting in the province of Quebec. I even heard the hon. member for Chapleau say over the radio that under this administration millions of dollars had been given through him for the development of access roads. Nevertheless, when a meeting is held by Mr. Talbot of the Union Nationale the hon. member is beside Mr. Talbot and denouncing agreements of this kind. I should like to know whether their stand is "Yes" here and "No"
in Quebec or vice versa. On what side of the fence do they stand? At the end of the discussion of this item I should like the yeas and nays to be called. I would ask the minister to give us the amounts of money by provinces spent under this program.


Mr. Martel:: Mr. Chairman, I should like to say a few words because the hon. member for St. Denis mentioned the fact that in a radio broadcast recently I said that large amounts of money had been spent and most of it, I am glad to say, in the north in the riding of Chapleau on the roads to resources program which is under discussion now. He implied that members of the Conservative party campaigned for the provincial party in the last election. I wish to say that we are discussing federal matters here. As far as I am concerned, I have said that these amounts are being spent and there is no question in my mind that they will help in the development of the north country. I do not think we should mix provincial matters with federal matters and I will be glad to vote in favour of this item.
(Translation):


Azellus Denis: Mr. Chairman, with reference to the remarks of the hon. member for Chapleau (Mr. Martel), I must say that the province of Quebec must necessarily be included in this discussion, since the expenditures involved in this item could not be made unless the province of Quebec agrees to share half the cost. A matter of principle is involved. Therefore, if you say that this constitutes an infringement upon autonomy and if, at your meetings in the province of Quebec, you denounce this item, I wonder why you vote in favour of it in this house. Either you change your mind, or-


Jean-Jacques Martel: We are not here to discuss provincial politics.


Azellus Denis: There is not one law for one's friends and another for one's foes.
I am unable to understand, Mr. Chairman, how these people can boast to their constituents that they are the protectors of autonomy.
(Text):


Gordon Campbell Chown: Order. If the hon. member for Chapleau had presented his case in the form of a point of order I would be inclined to agree that the debate on this item has strayed from the point which is the subject of inquiry from the minister and I would have to ask the hon. member for St. Denis to restrict his references to another arena which has no jurisdiction as far as this expenditure is concerned.


Azellus Denis: May I have the breakdown I requested?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Yes. Would the hon. member be satisfied with round figures?


Azellus Denis: Yes.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: These figures are up until the end of 1960: British Columbia, $2,200,000; Alberta, $2,300,000; Saskatchewan, $2,600,000; Manitoba, $1,700,000; Ontario, $1,300,000; Quebec, nil; New Brunswick, $1,200,000; Nova Scotia, almost $3 million; Prince Edward Island, $1,700,000, and Newfoundland almost $516,000.
(Translation):


Azellus Denis: Mr. Chairman, I find that the Quebec Tories cost the province a lot of money.


Mr. Ricard:: That might be a lesson for Mr. Lesage, who was against those subsidies but finally accepted them.
(Text):


Azellus Denis: May I say we were never opposed to these agreements. Premier Lesage hoped for the disappearance of these joint agreements little by little but would not refuse our share while they existed.
(Translation):
We shall accept all that the federal government gives the provinces. We shall have our share in the amounts of money distributed throughout the country. The hon. member for St. Hyacinthe-Bagot (Mr. Ricard) has paid his taxes; well he is entitled to his share of the amounts being spent under this item. Surely, he did not fail to notice the millions that were spent to the benefit of other provinces while the province of Quebec lagged behind during the time when the Union Nationale ruled the destinies of the province.


Jean-Jacques Martel: Your attitude shows you to favour centralization of power.


Azellus Denis: Just vote against this item if it is contrary to your principles.
(Text):


Mr. Robichaud:: Could the minister give the committee a list of the projects approved under this program in the current year for the province of New Brunswick?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: It is quite a long list, and I am happy to give it to the hon. member. The roads are as follows: the Juniper-Napadogan road, the Plaster Rock-Renous road, the Doaktown-Chipman road, the Blue River road, the Maces Bay road, the Saint John-Mispec road, the north central New Brunswick resources roads, the Boiestown or Doaktown to Plaster Rock road, the Kingston peninsula loop, the Bayfield-Mates Corner road, the Grand Lake road, the Salmon river bridge, the cape Bald loop, the Shediac bay loop, the Buctouche bay loop, the Richibucto loop
Supply[DOT]-Northern Affairs and the St. Croix river road. These are the projects that have been approved.


Hédard-J. Robichaud: Has the minister received a request covering a road to Miscou island, including a bridge linking Shippigan island and Miscou, and what action has been taken on this project?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I understand there have been requests for two additional road projects including the one mentioned by the hon. member, the other being a mining development road into the Heath Steel Company development. These two are under consideration at the moment.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Could I ask the minister whether he was right in giving the figure for Nova Scotia which seemed almost astronomical compared with the other provinces? I think all the other provinces were under $2 million and Nova Scotia was over $3 million. I just wondered whether the figure he gave was correct and, if so, where these roads are.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I now have a more up-to-date report. The first report was to the end of December, 1960, and the one I have in my hands now is to the end of January, 1961. The figure given for Nova Scotia is $3,032,000.


John Whitney Pickersgill: That is higher than any other province.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: No, Alberta is higher with $3,200,000. Those are the two highest provinces.


John Whitney Pickersgill: But it is higher than Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario or British Columbia?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: 
John Whitney Pickersgill: I wonder whether the minister can tell me about a road in which I am particularly interested, that from Gypsum-ville to Grand Rapids? Has that road been finished and is it intended to continue it farther north to Thompson?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I believe the hon. member is referring to Manitoba again and discussing the Manitoba roads to resources program.


John Whitney Pickersgill: That is the item under discussion.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: The road from Gypsumville, I understand, was officially opened at Christmas. I understand that it represents the longest piece of road developed in the shortest space of time in Canadian history. It is now

Supply-Northern Affairs proceeding to Thompson and when it gets to Thompson we will be only 200 miles from the port of Churchill.


Mr. Peters:: I believe in the original agreement with the province of Ontario in connection with the roads to resources program there were eight projects listed at a total cost of $8,360,000. Would the minister tell us how many of those roads have been completed under this program and the cost?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I have that information. The Savant lake south road: there has been no activity on this road to date. The Foyelet to Chapleau road: 23 miles have been cleared. The Minaki south road: 15 miles have been cleared out of a total of 15 miles. The Nakina northerly road, a total distance of 50 miles: I have not got the report of the work completed, but there has been a total of $429,268 paid out on that project. Goldpines to Uchi lake; there has been no activity on that project. Port Arthur north, a total distance of 70 miles: 28 miles have been cleared.


William Arnold Peters: What has happened in connection with the Campbell mine to Red lake road and No. 8 northern service? This was a very short road of about two miles.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: According to my records here, Mr. Chairman, the Campbell to Red lake road is not part of the roads to resources agreement. I believe the hon. member is referring to the road that was discussed by the hon. member for Port Arthur last night. This road is described in the agreement between the federal government and the government of Ontario, the form of road to be agreed upon after completion of photographic and magnetometer surveys. In addition, some geological reconnaissance will be carried out. I am happy to inform the hon. member that the major portion of the preliminary work has been completed. All the aeromagnetic work is completed and maps have been published. About 60 per cent of the ground geological work has been completed, and the balance will be done this year. It is expected that a detailed road location can commence later during the current year, and it is hoped the actual construction will commence in 1962.


William Arnold Peters: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Can the minister tell us if there are any negotiations currently under way to extend other roads in other areas not included in the roads to resources program? In other words, are there negotiations taking place between the provincial and federal governments to extend these roads into other areas beyond those initially projected in the province of Ontario? I am thinking, for instance, of a road from Gowganda to either the Chapleau

or Sudbury area. Another road that has been mentioned on a number of occasions is a road north from Cochrane to Moosonee and also one north from Kapuskasing to serve the area north of Kapuskasing.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Mr. Chairman, the roads I have outlined are the complete projects under the present agreement. There are no further negotiations taking place at the present time.


Mr. Habel:: I wish to follow the hon. member for Timiskaming because he referred to certain roads in my riding. I do not believe the population of Cochrane are so anxious to know about new roads from Timmins to Kapuskasing or Kapuskasing to Moosonee. They are anxious to learn about a road that would connect the northwestern part of Quebec with the northeastern part of Ontario. I wonder if the minister could tell me if there are any suggestions from the provincial governments concerning the possibility of opening up that area, 52 miles in length, between northwestern Quebec and La Reine and Cochrane. This would be the road in which the population of that district would be interested. They want this road as a tourist road, as a road to resources and also as a necessary road in case of attack on this country.
After all, the northern part of the province is quite a distance from Toronto and some 300 miles north of North Bay. The only real outlet we would have in case of attack would be to the west to Port Arthur and Fort William or east into Quebec province. This road would be a most important one to the population of my riding, and the one in which they would be most interested.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I can inform the hon. member that we have received no representations concerning this road.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I am very interested in this item because I am interested in these roads to resources. I might say that I have been interested in some hot springs for 50 years, the Nakusp hot springs which are nine miles northeast of Nakusp. I have been a commissioner of the park committee that has been formed since 1925, but we have no road to these hot springs. They are equal to radium springs. About 70,000 gallons of water come out of the ground every 24 hours at a temperature of about 134. We have two others very similar within a distance of 40 miles. There are magnificent opportunities for bathing and the establishment of a resort. Over 35 miles of the finest brook trout fishing in Canada, as well as magnificent scenery, can be found there.

For years, the people have either walked or rode a horse over the nine mile trail to these springs. Prior to the second world war there would be anywhere from 600 to 800 people visiting these springs annually, enjoying the baths, the fishing and the scenery. People seem to have gotten out of the habit of riding and walking since the second world war, so the numbers that come now are very reduced. We have been very interested in getting a road built over the nine miles required to service these magnificent hot springs.
I want to ask the minister three questions. I have tried to explain briefly the type of natural resource this is. Does the government contribute to the construction of roads to this type of natural resource if a province makes application? Has the government of British Columbia made application for assistance in building a road to these hot springs? Can the minister go through the list of projects that have been undertaken in British Columbia?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: In response to the first question may I say this. The federal government accepts recommendations from the provincial government for resource roads. The answer to the second question is this. The provincial government made no representations concerning the road referred to. As a matter of fact, I think the only road project in the province of British Columbia in the roads to resources program is the Stewart-Cassiar road. They have put the whole amount of money available into one project.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I want to thank the minister for that information. It will brew a good storm in the Kootenays.


Jean-Jacques Martel: I wish to add a few words to those of the hon. member for Cochrane with regard to the road suggested for northern Ontario to connect northeastern Ontario with northwestern Quebec. Some work has been done in that respect by-and the hon. member may correct me if I am wrong-the northern Ontario development association. There have been meetings with the Abitibi chamber of commerce and also the chamber of commerce of La Sarre. Our people in Quebec are also greatly interested in that road. I believe as well that some work has been done for that purpose, namely to build that road. Of course the suggestion will have to come from the Ontario government because on the Quebec side the road goes to the border. It all depends on what road will be chosen. However, it will be only a matter of few miles, possibly five miles at the most, depending on where this road will go.
I think it would be well for the minister if he would inquire whether his department
Supply-Northern Affairs has received representations from the northern Ontario development association in that respect with regard to this project about which we have been talking in our district for over 30 years, I would say. I think it is a worth-while project that would come under the roads to resources program of northeastern Ontario. Of course it all depends on the Ontario government.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I have had no direct representations and my officials tell me neither have they. As the hon. member suggests, the initial approach should be made to the provincial authorities.


@Acting Chair(man)? of Committees of the Whole: Is the committee ready for the division on vote 282?


William Arnold Peters: Before the division is taken, may I ask the minister what has been the final arrangement made by his department with the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys in relation to the magnetometer survey that was carried out in the case to which reference was made? I have not the final correspondence; it goes only up to a certain date. At that time negotiations were being undertaken with the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys, I believe, to conduct an air survey under this department. Was that how it was conducted?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Yes. This survey is done by the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys on our behalf.


@Acting Chair(man)? of Committees of the Whole: Is the committee ready for the division?


Some hon. Members:: Question.
Item agreed to: Yeas, 56; nays, nil.
National parks branch-
283.	Branch administration, $268,584.


Gordon Campbell Chown: Shall
vote 283 carry?


Some hon. Members:: Five o'clock.


@Acting Chair(man)? of Committees of the Whole: Shall vote 283 carry?


John Whitney Pickersgill: No, Mr. Chairman; I think perhaps we ought to call it five o'clock.


An hon. Member:: No; there are still two or three minutes.


John Whitney Pickersgill: All right. I have plenty of material. Perhaps the minister would like to take time first, if this is the appropriate item under which to do it, to complete his answer about Fort Rodd, if he is ready to answer on that subject. If not, I could go on. Perhaps it would be useful for the minister to have this knowledge so that, when we come back to the estimates, he may be prepared. When he comes back to the estimates I should like the minister to tell us

Indian Act
for what reason a man named Doucette of Rustico, Prince Edward Island, was laid off from the national park there, who was taken on in his place, and any other attendant details he can give about this transaction which I believe is rather notorious in the community,
I also have a question here about another matter. It is really a supplementary question to one which was asked the other day by the hon. member for Northumberland-Mira-michi who is unable to be here this afternoon and who wanted me to raise the matter further. The minister will recall that it was question No. 228 which he answered on March 29, with respect to the laying off of a crew and its replacement by another crew of persons in Cape Breton Highlands national park. The minister stated that an interim reply to some inquiries he had made had been sent on March 18 and that he had asked for further information on the matter in order to determine that the rotational policy had been equitably followed. If the minister, when we come together again, could give us that further information it would be helpful.


Some hon. Members:: Five o'clock.


Gordon Campbell Chown: It
being five o'clock and in order to permit the house to proceed to the consideration of public and private bills, pursuant to section 3 of standing order 15, it is my duty to rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again later this day, or at the next sitting of the house, as the case may be.
Resolutions adopted in committee of supply this day, reported and concurred in.


Mr. Speaker:: It being five o'clock the house will now proceed to the consideration of public and private bills the former having precedence, pursuant to section 3 of standing order 15 as provisionally amended.



INDIAN ACT


[Stage Direction]
On the order:
Second reading of Bill C-24, an act to amend the Indian Act (Section 112 repealed).-Mr. Howard.
Frank Howard: I wonder whether this order might stand.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I should like to raise a point of order with respect to this bill which has been on the order paper since November 21, 1960, If these bills are allowed to stand on the order paper they interfere with the possibility of other hon. members proceeding with their bills. It seems to me the hon. gentleman should either proceed or allow

the bill to go to the bottom of the list, if indeed it would be possible, in view of the action already taken by this house this session, for the hon. member to proceed with this particular bill.


Mr. Speaker:: Under the rules the hon. member has the option of proceeding or having the bill dropped unless it is requested by the government that the bill stand.


Mr. Broome:: On the point of order raised by the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillin-gate the intent of this bill has, I believe, already been dealt with by the house. I think it should be withdrawn.


Frank Howard: I have requested that it be allowed to stand, but if that is not the desire of the government-and I should like to know that first-


Mr. Speaker:: I have heard no request from the government that it should stand.


Frank Howard: On the point of order which has been raised-and I am speaking now about our procedure, not about the bill itself-may I suggest that the observations made were based on a statement made by the Minister of National Revenue on April 21. I believe he was then acting leader of the house. The hon. gentleman dealt with this question on that occasion and at page 3908 of Hansard he is reported as saying:
I admit there may be an occasion-such as that when an hon. member is sick, is unavoidably prevented from coming to this House of Commons, is away in his own constituency or is on other business-when some consideration might be given to that particular case.
Well, I am sick, Mr. Speaker. I am sick of this government trying to interfere in the affiairs of private members.


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member for Skeena is taking advantage of the Chair by raising that as a point of order. The rule requires the hon. member either to proceed or to drop this bill.


Frank Howard: Well, in that case, with consent, I should like to move that order No. 1 be discharged and the bill withdrawn.


Mr. Speaker:: Does the house give the hon. member leave to withdraw his bill?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
Order discharged and bill withdrawn.



CANADA FAIR EMPLOYMENT PRACTICES ACT


Frank Howard: the second reading of Bill No. C-25, to amend the Canada Fair Employment Practices Act (age discrimination).

He said: My remarks in connection with this particular bill will be brief. The Fair Employment Practices Act has been on the statute books for some years. It prohibits discrimination with regard to the employment of employees, among other things in so far as membership in trade unions is concerned. The act provides that discrimination shall not be practised on the basis of race, national origin, colour or religion.
What this bill seems to do is to add the further provision that discrimination shall not be practised because of the age of the prospective employee or of the employee unless age is considered to be a bona fide occupational factor. The bill seeks to deal at the present time with the question of membership in unions and the proposed amendment would merely add another provision in respect to age unless, as I say, that is a bona fide occupational factor. There are, in addition, those other matters such as race, national origin, colour and religion with which the act is already concerned.
I think we are all aware that discrimination has existed and exists right now among employers with regard to the age of individuals employed. We have all heard cases where a person of 40 years of age, or 45 or 50-the age varies with the industry and the circumstances-has been unable to gain employment because he is considered to be too old. In some instances the reason is given that an older person becomes less efficient and tends to slow down on the job. Another reason given, and I think it is the most prevalent, arises from the growth of pension plans in industry. A number of industries find that it is difficult to fit an older worker into a pension plan because by the time he reaches the normal retirement age in that industry he will not have put in enough service to qualify for a pension, or, in other words, the contributions to the pension fund made by himself, or on his behalf by the employer, or jointly, would not be sufficient to qualify him for a pension, or at any rate for an adequate pension.
We have advocated, of course, on other occasions and in other circumstances that a portable pension system should be instituted so as to allow a worker to take his pension plan with him when he moves from one job to another, thus enabling him to work in a number of different industries over a period of years. But that is another subject and I think it would not be proper except in a general way to debate that during the discussion of this particular bill.
Unfortunately these pension barriers, along with other factors, deprive people of the right to gainful employment, for no real valid, sensible or sound reason. This bill 90205-6-280
Fair Employment Practices Act seeks to overcome that particular situation. There are a number of other places in the world where such anti-discrimination laws exist but I do not think it is necessary for me to list the states which have this legislation on their statute books or to recount the experiences they have had in those places. Nevertheless, the material is on the files and the experience of anti-discrimination legislation may be consulted.
In support of my statement that discrimination does exist and of my contention that changes should be made I should like to qoute from the remarks of the Minister of Labour (Mr. Starr 1 as contained in a booklet published in 1960 by the Queen's printer entitled "Speaking Out about the Older Worker Problem". This is a publication containing some 26 pages. It deals extensively with the problem of the older workers from a variety of viewpoints. Within its pages, as I said, is a statement by the Minister of Labour, who has this to say as reported on pages 7 and 8 of the booklet:
Justice, and freedom of opportunity to every individual, as spelled out by the United Nations, was adopted by 58 countries, including Canada, in the universal declaration of human rights, in December 1948. Is it justice and freedom of opportunity to raise obstacles to employment against any segment of society, for any reason, including age? Should not all individuals have an equal right to jobs which they are capable of doing whether they are 20 or 70 years of age?
The second paragraph I wish to read from page 8 is as follows:
In the Department of Labour and the national employment service we contend that applicants for jobs should be hired on the basis of character, ability and qualifications needed for the particular job, and that age should not be a factor. It is because many persons in their forties or fifties are turned down for jobs simply because of age- even though fully qualified-that we have the social and economic problem of the older worker.
Mr. Speaker, these words of the Minister of Labour add weight, if that is necessary, to the reasons why this particular bill should be endorsed by all hon. members and placed on the statute books of our country.


Frank Charles McGee: Mr. Speaker, I wonder whether the hon. member will permit a question before he resumes his seat? I appreciate that during second reading of a bill is not the appropriate time to ask for clarification of a particular clause, but perhaps if I phrase my question carefully it will be in order. I wonder whether the hon. member could expand on the principles which give rise to clause 6?


Frank Howard: Mr. Speaker, I will attempt to do so if I can avoid becoming involved in the technicalities. A union will occasionally select a name which embodies a reference to age, such as "old" or "young". Clause 6 prevents anyone from presuming that such
4438	HOUSE OF
Fair Employment Practices Act an inclusion in the name is an indication of a prejudice. This phraseology was adopted from similar types of legislation to prevent any possibility of such a thing happening.


Frank Charles McGee: Mr. Speaker, could the hon. member give us an example of the type of association he has in mind?


Frank Howard: Mr. Speaker, I do not have any association in mind. These words were taken from the phraseology used in similar legislation in other jurisdictions. Apparently individuals had been faced with this peculiar situation and adopted this method of solving the problem, so as to prevent any implication of a restriction as to age. Perhaps as an illustration I could suggest that, if a group of employees working in a home for the aged called themselves the national union of employees for the home for the aged, there would be no possibility of discrimination because of the name itself under legislation based on this bill.


Mr. G. H. Aiken (Parry Sound-Muskoka):: Mr. Speaker, so far as this bill serves to draw attention to the plight of the older workers it has a useful purpose. However, as in many circumstances where we are dealing with prejudice, it is very difficult to draft legislation to prevent it. I suggest that we must educate the general public as to the usefulness of older workers.
As has been mentioned on numerous occasions, there are many prejudices in Canada and elsewhere throughout the world relating to the usefulness of persons who have reached a certain age. I hope this discussion today will put forward a case for the older worker. The hon. member for Oxford (Mr. Nesbitt) on several occasions has presented this case for the older worker. He did so last year during a very forthright discussion regarding the whole problem.
There are two main problems facing the older worker. The first is an economic problem, and the second can be classed as a prejudicial problem. In many institutions employers hesitate to hire individuals who will shortly be entitled to retirement and drawing pensions, or other retirement allowances, for the obvious economic reasons. Second, even though an individual may offer to work without the benefit of a retirement plan, he would be in a very difficult position. Many older people on occasion will volunteer, because they realize that they will not be working for a very long period of time, to waive their pension rights. This proposal has never been acceptable because it would result in different treatment from different employers. This type of offer made by older workers, to get around the difficulty, has met with little success.


Regarding the problem of prejudice facing older people, I would suggest there is a feeling among employers, in regard to giving jobs to older people, that they are not as efficient as* younger people. I would suggest this is not always true. We should first consider what the prejudices are that an older worker must face. I shall attempt to list several of them which I feel are among the foremost. The first, is that when workers grow older their ability to learn decreases and therefore it is more difficult to train them in newer industrial and technological techniques. Second, a man over 40 is presumed not to be as productive as he was at 20. Third, the frequency of illness increases with age and there is more absenteeism among older workers than among younger workers. Fourth, physical deterioration is synonomous with age and therefore older people are accident prone. Finally, age has a direct bearing on insurance rates, and the cost of pension plans increases with each new participant over 40 years of age.
Those prejudices I have outlined represent the beliefs of a considerable number of employers, although it is generally accepted that these are not true statements of the facts. These beliefs are not necessarily accurate in respect of individuals 40 years and older, but are myths regarding older workers.
Mr. Speaker, I received a mimeographed letter last year, as I imagine all hon. members did, from a Mr. George D. Glassford of 132 Central Park boulevard north, Oshawa, Ontario, dated March 7, 1960. This gentleman set forth his particular problem in this letter, and I should like to read two paragraphs. They are as follows:
Business, big and small, American or Canadian controlled; governments, federal, provincial and municipal, are all tarred with the same brush.
They'll deny it emphatically-show examples where the statement is wrong-but the pitifully few examples they can show have resulted from pressure-executive, customer, or political-in each individual case. Rarely is one ever turned down because of age, as such. That would never do. The reasons are many and varied and often far fetched. I should know. I've been getting them for 15 months.
This letter was written by a man who states that he is almost 60 and was born in Canada. He had service in the first war. He goes through a long list of jobs that he has held but he says his difficulty now is his age. His letter points up the problem but I do not think it points up the answer and I do not think it necessarily points to the bill that we are discussing.
This writer says that age is never given to him as the real reason for not employing him. He says he receives these other reasons which are varied, but employers never come up with the statement that it is really his age which

is causing the difficulty. In such a situation the provisions of Bill No. C-25 would not help very much, because it would still remain possible for an employer to use the same reasons that he is using now and never mention age. To this extent I am not sure that the bill would actually accomplish the purpose the hon. member has in mind.
When I was looking up my notes on this bill in anticipation of speaking I went through a file I have of people who write to me looking for employment. I am not going to quote those letters directly but I have extracted statements from them over a period of the last two years which illustrate this particular problem. One letter says, "Everywhere I go I am told I am too old". Then, in brackets he says, " I am 56 years old". Another letter says, "At my age, 52, positions are hard to obtain". Another letter contains this sentence, "I am 57 years old and have still got six children to support, some of which are still going to school. Now, at 57 years old, I find it very hard to get work". In another letter dated July of last year I find this sentence, "Now, what am I to do at 54 years old to find a job?" These are four extracts that I took from those letters. I do not receive a great many letters asking for employment, but from that number I managed to select four letters, the writers of which definitely stated their real problem was age and nothing else.


Frank Howard: May I interrupt on a point of order. I understand that when referring to letters it is the practice to identify their source. I wonder whether the hon. member is going to do that?


Mr. Speaker:: If the hon. member was to quote from a letter the point might be taken, but as I understood the reference it was to the letters and their contents in general terms.


Frank Howard: I understood that the hon. member who has the floor was reading a letter; although I may be mistaken.


Gordon Harvey Aiken: In introducing these particular comments I said they were comments taken from correspondence and indicated the type of letter I had received. I did not purport to quote any particular person or letter but I did take the odd extract out of letters which referred particularly to the problem of age.
As I said in the beginning, the idea is good; the problem is real. I am hopeful that we can come to some conclusion on what can be done to assist older workers. A great many studies have been undertaken and all of them do agree that the problem is there and that the older worker is much more efficient and able to carry on a job than the general public believe. Thank you.
90205-6-280i
Fair Employment Practices Act


Mr. J. F. Browne (Vancouver-Kingsway):: Mr. Speaker, in rising to take part in the debate on this bill I find myself in substantial agreement with what has just been said by the hon. member for Parry Sound-Muskoka. I was rather surprised at the introductory remarks of the mover of the bill, the hon. member for Skeena, but he did not deal with one of the aspects raised by the hon. member for Parry Sound-Muskoka, namely we all recognize that the subject matter of the bill presents a problem. The hon. member for Skeena did not deal at any length with how he felt this particular bill would overcome the problem.


Frank Howard: I will do that when I close the debate.


John Ferguson Browne: I
should think that would be the first consideration we should want to have before us. Before we undertook to enact any such measure we should want to be sure that it was going to have the desired effect. It seems a rather odd time to do it at the end of the debate when hon. members would not have the benefit of the views of the hon. member for Skeena on the subject.
It does seem to me that this bill not only would not overcome the problem with which we have to deal but in fact it perhaps might raise a lot of other problems. For instance, many firms have a pension plan which, as has been pointed out, is designed to provide a man with a retirement income on which he may retire at age 65. As I see it, under the terms of this bill, if a company had a pension plan of that nature and expected its employees to retire at age 65, then that would be discriminatory if the employee declined to resign at 65. He would perhaps feel within his rights to stay there until he was 85 or so long as he was able to work. That aspect of the matter would certainly have to be taken into consideration.
Then again, I think a firm would have many legitimate reasons for wanting a person of a certain age for a particular job. In the explanatory note of this bill I see that the mover has said:
The chief purpose of this bill is to add age discrimination to the list of prohibited employment practices unless age is a bona fide occupational qualification.
I do not know exactly what the definition of a bona fide occupational qualification would be.
Then, the hon. member goes on to say:
A secondary purpose is to prohibit the employer from including in an employment application form, advertisement or written or oral inquiry, a question or request for particulars as to the applicant's -race, national origin, colour, religion or age unless by reason of a bona fide occupational qualification.

Fair Employment Practices Act
It seems to me that a firm would have to take into consideration the average age of its staff. For instance, in the case of a small firm, it might have a small office staff of half a dozen employees, three or four of whom may be getting on toward retirement age. Of course, if that firm was looking to the future it certainly would not want to hire another person who was getting on toward retirement age; it would be looking for someone who would be with the firm for a number of years and would then have the training to carry on. It seems to me that in a case of that kind a firm would have a legitimate reason. Whether it would come within the terms of a bona fide occupational qualification, I do not know. It certainly would not be a good idea if that could be said to be a bona fide occupational qualification. An older person could very well do the job and therefore it could hardly be said to be a bona fide occupational qualification.
For that reason I believe that this particular amendment to prevent discrimination against older workers, with the principle of which I agree, would not in fact overcome the problem. I believe that the Minister of Labour (Mr. Starr) has already taken some very constructive action with regard to the matter. I know that about two years ago I received at my office in my firm in Vancouver a letter sent out by the Minister of Labour in which he drew the attention of many thousands of employers across the country to the problem. I have a copy here and I believe it had a very good effect on firms. As a result of this letter and other actions he has taken, such as setting up a small group under the civilian rehabilitation branch of the Department of Labour to deal with this specific subject, in my opinion he has done a great deal to help to alleviate the situation.
There have been reports that employers have paid attention to the requests of the Department of Labour to try to take some measures to overcome the problem. I notice it is reported that several employers have initiated special savings plans by payroll deduction for new employees who may be too old to enter a pension plan. That was one of the difficulties, and if that scheme could be expanded it would, of course, do a great deal to overcome the problem.
A number of publications have been issued by the Department of Labour and other branches of the government, and I think it might be a good idea to put some of them on the record so that people who are interested in the subject will be able to look at some of the information that has been collected. The following publications have been made available from 1957 to the present time: Pension Plans and the Employment of Older

Workers, 1957, sponsored by the interdepartmental committee on older workers and published by the Department of Labour; Research on the Problem of the Employment of the Older Worker, 1958, by Professor S. D. Clark, University of Toronto, sponsored and published by the economics and research branch, Department of Labour; The Aging Worker in the Canadian Economy, 1959, published by the economics and research branch, Department of Labour; Age and Performance in Retail Trade, 1959, published by the economics and research branch, Department of Labour; The Employability of the Older Worker, 1959, by Professor S. D. Clark, University of Toronto, sponsored and published by the economics and research branch, Department of Labour.
There are others here but I think that is a pretty good list for anyone who is interested in the subject. As I said at the commencement of my remarks, Mr. Speaker, while I am certainly not unsympathetic to the stated purpose of the bill which is to prevent discrimination against older workers, I am in no way convinced that the bill will do anything in that regard at all. In fact, I feel very strongly that not only will it not end any problems but it will raise many new ones.
As was so very well pointed out by the hon. member for Parry Sound-Muskoka (Mr. Aiken), there are very few instances where a man is told that he is being rejected on account of his age, and it would be most difficult to prove discrimination in that regard. Therefore I think the approach that the Minister of Labour has taken and the very active educational campaign he has carried on are a much more satisfactory solution, and I believe that if all members get behind the minister's program and support him in his efforts to try to encourage employers throughout the country to employ older workers we will be doing a more constructive job than we would by passing this bill.


Mr. W. L. M. Creaghan (Westmorland):: Mr. Speaker, it is my privilege to say a few words with respect to this private member's bill and in commencing my remarks I want to say that, like most hon. members, I am in agreement with the principle of the bill. However, I have reservations as to whether or not Bill No. C-25 would be effective in practice.
Hon. members well realize that in 1953 parliament passed the Canada Fair Employment Practices Act. Section 4 of that act sets out certain employment practices that are prohibited including discrimination on the ground of race, national origin, colour or religion. This bill attempts to add the word "age" to the prohibitions. I am wondering what would be the effect of adding "age"

to this section. Would it mean that certain employers, as stated by a previous speaker, would be obligated to continue employees in employment regardless of whether they had reached age 65 or the pensionable age? I suggest in any case that the bill before us would certainly need further amendment to remove that factor.
Another thing that concerns me is whether or not the words "occupational qualification" should be defined in the bill. Everyone has a general idea of the meaning but as the main act covers such a variety of occupations including working on railways, canals, aerodromes, air transportation, banking, broadcasting and practically every type of national employment it would require a huge list of regulations to set out the various occupational qualifications for each particular type of employment which would be affected by the main act. Consequently it would be most difficult, if not impossible, for the director to formulate regulations.
I think the only way to overcome the problem that Canada faces with reference to the plight of people in middle age who become unemployed is for the government and industry to conduct an educational program in a more strenuous manner. The last speaker mentioned certain publications issued by the Department of Labour. I hope the department will continue the distribution of this literature and will accelerate its efforts in that regard. I understand that the radio labour program, "Canada at Work", has mentioned this subject on many broadcasts and I commend the program for doing so. However, education of the people is not going to solve the problem. I suggest that more action on the part of the federal government might be welcomed at this time.
I might mention, for example, the Department of National Defence. All of us have constituents and friends in the permanent forces. Too many of them are compelled to retire on pension at ages when they are still capable of performing adequate service to the crown. I do not suggest that a man in the infantry who is on active training in peacetime can continue to give good service as an officer, non-commissioned officer or other rank beyond the age of 50 but surely it should be possible for the defence department to absorb some of these people in work where less strenuous exercise is involved and to keep them so employed.
At the present time large numbers of military people are retired daily, and a great many of them are entitled to veterans' preference because they stayed in the forces after the end of hostilities. Although national defence no longer employs them, under the
Fair Employment Practices Act Civil Service Act they are entitled to preference if they served overseas and the civil service commission has no choice but to offer them further employment in the government service. In many instances, civil servant applicants who are well qualified are displaced. I make this suggestion to the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Harkness) because I think it is very closely related to the problem of the older worker today.
Another step which perhaps might correct the situation better than this bill would be the introduction by industry, with government assistance and co-operation, of what are known as portable pensions. I am quite certain, Mr. Speaker, that portable pensions would play a part in solving the occupational problems of people who are unemployed at age 45 and over.
In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, I want to say that I am in agreement with the principle of this bill. However, I do not see how it would be possible to properly police the measure, and if laws cannot be enforced they should not be put on the statute books. To reiterate what I have just said, I feel that the government should take a close and serious look at the problems created by early retirement from the Department of National Defence. If necessary, perhaps the government should also give serious consideration to the plight of people over 40 who are unemployed because of the fact their jobs have disappeared as a result of automation. It might be possible to give some sort of statutory preference to these citizens who could be trained under the vocational training scheme to take up occupations which would lead to employment with the government.
I want to commend the hon. member for introducing this bill because it gives parliament an opportunity to discuss this serious problem, a problem for which every elected representative in all levels of government has a responsibility in order that this social injustice will be eliminated once and for all in Canada.


Ernest James Broome: Mr. Speaker, I, like the previous speakers, am in favour of the principle of the bill. I will try to point out what I feel to be the intent of the sponsor of this bill, and the fact that I believe he would have been better advised to introduce a separate bill instead of amending the Canada Fair Employment Practices Act. I am in agreement with the thoughts which have been expressed that the government might do more with regard to their own advertising for recruits for the civil service. If they were to put in big letters the information that no age qualifications are necessary for the job, that might help. If

Fair Employment Practices Act ages are ever requested, candidates should only be asked whether they are over 18 and under 65.
I believe other speakers have pointed out that the Department of Labour and the present Minister of Labour (Mr. Starr) have conducted intensive campaigns to educate industry to the advantages of employing older workers. The hon. member for Parry Sound-Muskoka (Mr. Aiken) mentioned certain of the objections to employing older workers. It has been shown that these are really prejudices which have no foundation in fact. The older worker can be quite as productive as the younger worker because in our industry today we are machine operators rather than pick and shovel operators. There would be less rather than more absenteeism because the older workers are more dependable. In many cases, the older worker is the best bet for the employer.
In considering this proposal to amend the Canada Fair Employment Practices Act, our attention should be directed to the nature and purposes of the existing legislation which forbids refusal of employment to a person because of his race, national origin, colour or religion. In endorsing the democratic principle of equality of opportunity in employment, the law prevents denial of the essential oneness of the human family in respect of the right of the individual to seek and find work. The question arising from the proposed amendment is whether or not it should be added as an additional factor to these factors which, by law, are eliminated as obstacles to employment. This proposal is, therefore, timely because it reminds us that there is discrimination in regard to age. I feel, however, that an amendment to the Canada Fair Employment Practices Act does not accomplish our purpose of eliminating this particular discrimination.
It is relatively easy to determine whether there is discrimination with regard to race, national origin, colour or religion. It is not so easy, in fact it would be almost impossible under certain circumstances, to determine whether there is discrimination because of age. For example, if a man of 45 is hired, is another applicant of 46 being discriminated against? Age is a common factor; it is common to everyone. As this act now stands on the statute books, it prevents discrimination because of factors which can be readily determined. In the present act the basis of the legislative provisions relates to race, national origin, colour and religion. Equal employment opportunities for the members of minority racial or religious groups is quite a different consideration from safeguarding the employment opportunities of age groups.


If it is the intention of this amendment to protect the older worker, it fails in its purpose because there is nothing in it which restricts the protection to the older worker. As the proposal now stands, a young person could complain and dislodge an older person from employment, regardless of other practical or economic considerations. There is only one clause in this bill, and if this amendment were to carry it would add age to the other grounds upon which discrimination should not be practised. The clause, in part, would say that there shall be no discrimination because of race, national origin, colour, religion or age unless age is a bona fide occupational qualification. In my opinion, this weakens the principle of the bill as it now exists. Therefore I say that it would be much better if the hon. member for Skeena would not try to accomplish his purpose by amending this present statute and that he should rather bring in a bill which would cover discrimination with regard to age and which might bring in other points such as the portability of pensions or other factors which discriminate against the employment of older people. There is already in Canada and in many other countries of the world legislation which permits distinctions in work in relation to age particularly in connection with night work and underground work which is prohibited for minors. It would appear that there is discrimination on the basis of age, and age being the general and universal factor it is, one must secure a method other than that which is proposed in order to eliminate this discrimination.
There is in Canada, as well as in some other countries, an active program through such agencies as the national employment service encouraging employers to employ the older worker. Education and encouragement would appear to be by far the better way of dealing with the problem rather than through legislation unless that legislation can be so worded as to make it clear cut and not subject to wrong interpretation.
It might be interesting, Mr. Speaker, to look at the experience of other countries and even other provinces of Canada with regard to legislation dealing with discrimination. The
I.L.O. committee on discrimination in the field of employment and occupation in 1957 considered this question of discrimination because of age. A vote on the inclusion of age as a basis was rejected by a vote of 109 to 206 with 67 abstentions. In Canada, none of those provinces with fair employment practices legislation includes age as a basis for discrimination. To the knowledge of the Department of Labour, no country in the world has

positive legislation at the national level which makes age a basis for discrimination in fair employment practices legislation.
I understand that in the United States there are some 10 states which have on their statute books legislation relating to the employment of older workers. In six of these states such a provision is included in the state's fair employment practices act. Here is an interesting point. How do these states define age? Massachusetts defines age as from 45 to 65; Pennsylvania defines age as between 40 and 62; the Connecticut and Wisconsin acts refer to persons 40 and 65 and the Oregon act to those between 25 and 65. Rhode Island's prohibition is in a separate act which defines age to mean between 45 and 65.
From the references I have given I think it will be clear to all hon. members and, I hope, to the sponsor of the bill, that discrimination with regard to age is something that is almost impossible to define by statute. It is like trying to bring in legislation to outlaw evil. That is not to say that we should not try to do something about this matter. However, I believe the methods now being used- I refer to the method of education; the method of persuasion now being used by the Department of Labour; the letters from the minister mentioned by the hon. member for Van-couver-Kingsway-will have gradually better and more beneficial results.
I think it is rather difficult for members of parliament, so many of whom are professional people whose highest earnings may start at age 60, to understand the plight of the worker who, through the closure of a plant or through technological changes, is thrown out of a job after the age of 45. These men in many cases are not even given the benefit of an interview. They are rejected on the basis of age. This is not right. It is not even good management on the part of the managers of industrial enterprises to take this stand. Therefore, as I say, the idea of this bill is good, but it should be in the form of a separate bill. Therefore, although I am not talking out this bill, I now move the adjournment of this debate.


Some hon. Members:: Six o'clock.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Robert Jardine McCleave: Will the house leader inform the house of the business for tomorrow?


Gordon Minto Churchill: I should like to make a motion. I move, seconded by the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys (Mr. Comtois):
Business of the House That on Saturday, May 6, 1961, and every Saturday thereafter until the end of the session the order of business and procedure shall be as for Thursday, a government day.


Frank Howard: You would even steal that extra hour away.


Mr. Speaker:: Has the house leader leave to revert to motions?


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, in our opinion he has neither leave to revert to motions nor leave to make the motion which he is now making and, if I am allowed to do so, I will give the reasons why. We attempted to submit to the government, when this matter was under consideration at an earlier date, a program which we thought was a reasonable one. But we were forced by the government to sit on Saturdays. Now, without the consent of the house, the house leader is making this motion. Under no consideration will the opposition consent to that motion being made now.


Gordon Minto Churchill: There was no forcing on the part of the government. The suggestion with regard to sitting on Saturday was agreed to by the house. Lack of agreement to this motion does not prevent the sitting of the house on Saturday in accordance with the motion passed by the house and recorded in Votes and Proceedings for Monday, April 24, at page 468.


Lionel Chevrier: The house rules are quite clear to the effect that the house cannot sit on Saturday unless there is a motion similar to the one which the house leader has made. I, on behalf of the opposition, am not consenting to that motion not only because of what I have said but also because of the statement put on the record by the Prime Minister at page 3928 of Hansard.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The house leader has submitted a motion which, in my view, could not be made at this stage in our proceedings and perhaps could not be made in any event without notice or unanimous consent of the house. In order to found a motion at this stage, I think unanimous consent to revert to motions would be the first step. Without that consent, which I take it is not available, I am sorry to say that I cannot entertain the motion. Unless there is some discussion of the business for tomorrow I shall announce the adjournment of the house.


[Stage Direction]
It being three minutes after six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[Stage Direction]
Questions

[Stage Direction]
The following answers, deposited with the Clerk of the house, are printed in the official report of debates pursuant to standing order 39:

Mr. Regier: What were the travelling expenses paid for by the government in the fiscal year ended March 31, 1960, for each of the ministers of the federal cabinet?
Answer by: Hon. Donald M. Fleming (Minister of Finance):
Minister of
Amount
Agriculture	 $3,302
Citizenship and Immigration 3,747 Defence Production	 531
External Affairs, Secretary of
State for	
Finance	
Fisheries	
Justice	
Solicitor General	
Labour	
Mines and Technical Surveys
National Defence	
National Health and Welfare
National Revenue	
Northern Affairs and National
1,475 3,300 1,891 2,574 1,624 1,707 4,488 J 2,140 12,068 3,323 2,400
Resources 		. 2,281
Postmaster General		. 1,100
Public Works 		J 169 12,267
Secretary of State 		. 1,811
Trade and Commerce		. 6,997
Transport 		. 1,169
Veterans Affairs 	 Without portfolio-	. 2,135
Hon. W. J. Browne		. 436
Hon. J. M. Macdonnell . ..	. 352


HOUSE CONSTRUCTION, JACKPINE RIDGE, MAN.
Mr. Pickersgill: 1.	Does the government intend to build houses at the radar station on Jackpine Ridge between Fairford and St. Martin, Manitoba?
2.	If so, how many houses will be built, and have tenders been called for their construction?
3.	If tenders have been called, have any contracts been let, and, if so, to whom?
4.	On what date is construction expected to start on this project?
5.	Are any commercial buildings to be built at this site?
6.	If so, have tenders been called, and for what buildings?
Answer by: Hon. D. S. Harkness (Minister
of National Defence):
1.	Yes.
2.	It is planned to construct 90 transportable type housing units for this site but tenders have not yet been called for the construction of these units.
3.	Answered by 2.
4.	It is expected that tenders will be called by Defence Construction Limited for the construction of these houses in the fall of 1961. However, tenders have already been called for the installation of the foundations and services for these units. The closing date of this tender call is May 19, 1961.
5.	No.
6.	Not applicable.
[The following items were passed in committee of supply]:


DEPARTMENT OF NORTHERN AFFAIRS AND NATIONAL RESOURCES
[Stage Direction]
279.	Departmental administration including Canada's share of the expenses of the "resources for tomorrow" conference, $1,105,390.
280.	Northern co-ordination and research including a grant of $10,000 to the Arctic institute of North America, and an amount of $5,000 for grants in aid of northern research subject to approval by the treasury board, $141,450.
281.	Contributions to the provinces, pursuant to agreements entered into with the approval of the governor in council, by Canada with the provinces, of amounts equal to one half of the amounts confirmed by the provinces as having been spent by them for campground and picnic area developments, $1,700,000.
282.	Contributions to the provinces to assist in the development of roads leading to resources in accordance with agreements entered into by Canada and the provinces, $12,000,000.
[Stage Direction]
Saturday, May 6, 1961

John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I wish to table two copies of order in council P.C. 1961-675, dated May 5, in which His Excellency the Governor General by and with the advice of Her Majesty the Queen's privy council for Canada declares his assent to Bill No. 56 of the legislature of Saskatchewan passed during the present year and which was reserved by the lieutenant governor of Saskatchewan for the signification of the pleasure of the Governor General in accordance with the terms of the British North America Act.
In view of the importance of the constitutional issue involved, and with the leave of the house, I should like to place on the record the text of this order in council. It is a relatively short one. Leaving out the preliminaries and commencing with the preamble it reads as follows:
Whereas Bill No. 56 entitled "The Mineral Contracts Alteration Act, 1961" passed by the legislature of the province of Saskatchewan at the first session of the fourteenth legislature of the province of Saskatchewan, was reserved on the 8th day of April, 1961, by his honour the lieutenant governor of Saskatchewan for the signification of the pleasure of the Governor General;
And whereas the lieutenant governor, in transmitting the bill, gave as his reasons for reserving it
(a)	that the bill, in his view, was ultra vires the legislature, and
(b)	that the bill was not in the national interest;
And whereas it is the established policy in these
matters to consider first the question of whether the bill is within the competence of the legislature to enact and second the question of whether it is in conflict with national policy or interest, and if these two questions be resolved favourably, to recommend that assent be given unless the bill is otherwise objectionable;
And whereas the Minister of Justice has examined the bill and has considered the reasons given by his honour the lieutenant governor for the reservation thereof, and he is of the opinion, with respect to the first question, that the bill is within the competence of the legislature to enact; that, with respect to the second question, the minister has considered the authorities and precedents, and is of the opinion that the expression "conflict with national policy or interest" does not relate solely to a difference of principle or point of view, but must include matters of practical or physical effect, and that in this sense the bill is not in conflict with national policy or interest;
And whereas the question of whether the bill is otherwise objectionable, being a matter that
involves considerations other than legal, has been considered by His Excellency's advisers as a whole, and the conclusion has been reached that the nature of the bill is not such as to warrant departure from the normal course of recommending assent;
Wherefore His Excellency the Governor General, by and with the advice of the Queen's privy council for Canada, is pleased hereby to declare his assent to the said bill.
The house will recall that Hon. Frank Bastedo, lieutenant governor of Saskatchewan, reserved this bill, and did so without instructions from or consultation with the federal government. I have no hesitation in saying that had there been such consultation my colleagues and I would have recommended to the Governor General that the lieutenant governor be instructed not to reserve the bill.
I should call your attention, sir, and that of the house to the fact that in 1882 the governor general in council, in a minute of council transmitted to the lieutenant governors of each province, noted:
The lieutenant governor is not warranted in reserving any measure for the assent of the governor general on the advice of his ministers. He should do so in his capacity of a dominion officer only, and on instructions from the Governor General. It is only in a case of extreme necessity that a lieutenant governor should without such instructions exercise his discretion as a dominion officer in reserving a bill. In fact, with facility of communication between the dominion and provincial governments such a necessity can seldom if ever arise.
That was in 1882. In view of the development of communications since, it is evident that nowadays there should be ample opportunity for lieutenant governors to confer with the federal government before reserving a bill. I should point out that while no formal instructions have yet been given to lieutenant governors to reserve a bill unless upon specific instructions, my colleagues and I are now considering whether such formal instructions should be given.
In so far as the substance and other aspects of the bill in question are concerned, they are properly, of course, the concern of the governor general in council; and I feel that instead of going into detail, if there is any discussion to take place on this matter it might well be postponed until the estimates of the privy council are before the house unless naturally, in the meantime, opportunity arises for discussion.

Royal Assent to Provincial Bill


Hazen Robert Argue: Mr. Speaker, I think the house has listened with great interest to the words of the Prime Minister and to the decision of the government. I feel that the government has made a correct decision, and I am certain that it will receive the approval of the people of Saskatchewan in general.
The Prime Minister made it clear this morning, as he has done on former occasions, that in reserving Bill No. 56 the lieutenant governor of Saskatchewan did so without instructions from the Governor General or the governor in council, and without consultation.
The Prime Minister has also made it abundantly clear, and with this I very much agree, that this is an extraordinary procedure and he has pointed out that, although it may conceivably have been within the letter of the law, the precedents make this kind of action unwarranted. I feel that the lieutenant governor of Saskatchewan has exceeded the prerogatives of his office-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I would ask the hon. member to confine his comments on the matter, to the factual statements of policy in the same way the Prime Minister did and not to express opinions with respect to the conduct of Her Majesty's representative in Saskatchewan.


Hazen Robert Argue: On the point of order that you have raised, Mr. Speaker, I would point out that on other occasions you have been even stricter in your rulings and that any reference to a lieutenant governor, his office or how he carried out his office was considered out of order. The Prime Minister has indicated that this whole question will be the subject of a debate in the house on a future occasion, and at that time I shall endeavour once again to put my views before the house and indicate that in my view he should resign.


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member will have to abide by the rules of the house with respect to commenting on the conduct of the representative of Her Majesty except as such conduct is necessarily involved in a factual way in the statements of policy that have been made, but that is a problem that we can meet when it arises.


Hazen Robert Argue: If he does wrong, where do we go from there?
[Mr. Diefenbaker.l


UNITED NATIONS
Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, I should like to announce the appointment of the hon. member for Charlevoix (Mr. Asselin) to the special United Nations commission of judicial review for the Belgian trust territory of Ruanda-Urundi.
The territory is a small, densely populated area lying landlocked in equatorial Africa between the republic of the Congo-Leopoldville-to the west, Uganda to the north and Tanganyika to the east and south. A former German colony, since 1919 it has been administered by Belgium, first as a mandate of the league of nations and subsequently as a trust territory of the United Nations.
On April 21 the general assembly adopted by a large majority, which included Canada, a resolution giving Belgium specific directives in respect of the administration of the territory and its evolution to independence. The resolution also contained a provision for the implementation of a general amnesty and the establishment of a special three nation commission to review a number of cases of persons convicted of grave crimes with a view to securing their release from prison or return from exile. Canada, together with Brazil and Tunisia, was elected to serve on this commission, which is expected to leave this month on a journey of approximately three weeks to Belgium and Ruanda-Urundi and to submit a report to the United Nations prior to legislative elections in the territory scheduled for August of this year. The costs of the commission will, of course, be borne by the United Nations.
As you know, Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Charlevoix is well qualified to take this assignment. He has broad legal and political experience, and has concerned himself particularly with international affairs. In 1958 he was a member of the Canadian delegation to the NATO parliamentary association meeting in London, and during the fifteenth session of the United Nations general assembly which has just been completed he served as Canadian representative both in the legal committee and also in the trusteeship committee, which has been considering the Ruanda-Urundi item. This hon. member has made a splendid contribution to the work of the United Nations during its last session.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, I have no comment to make about an assignment given to an hon. member of the house, but I would simply point out to the minister

that he has a parliamentary secretary who does not seem to be overly occupied when he is in the house.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Some hon. Members:: Withdraw.


Peter Francis Martin: When a parliamentary secretary appointed for the purpose of assisting the minister is provided with remuneration for the discharge of his heavy responsibilities it would seem to me that assignments of this kind should not pass by the parliamentary secretary, as he is apparently not overly occupied.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Speaker, we appreciate the information on this important question given by the Secretary of State for External Affairs. I think it demonstrates what can be done in the spirit of conciliation when people are willing to achieve good ends through negotiation and apply the principles of common sense, having in mind the welfare of all people. We wish the officials representing this country and the mission concerned every success in all they are attempting to undertake in connection with this matter.


LABOUR CONDITIONS
Lionel Chevrier: Is the
Prime Minister or Minister of Labour not going to make a statement on motions in connection with the settlement of the threatened railway strike?


Mr. Speaker:: I think the hon. member for Laurier will have to leave to the government the decision as to what statement will be made by the government.
On the orders of the day:


Lionel Chevrier: May I ask
the Prime Minister if he has any comment to make on the settlement of the strike between the railways and the members of the Canadian brotherhood of railway workers?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I expressed the hope the other day that there would not be a strike. Negotiations have continued from time to time since legislation was passed in December, intermittently it is true but in the last few days more regularly, and as a result of the process of negotiation there will not be a strike.


Lionel Chevrier: In asking a supplementary question of the Prime Minister, may I preface it by saying that we too on this side of the house are delighted that there has been-
Labour Conditions


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Lionel Chevrier: -a settlement of this dispute on the terms that we recommended in the house some months ago.


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Lionel Chevrier: May I ask the Prime Minister or the Minister of Labour whether any arrangement has been made between the government and the railways in connection with the funds with which these increases will be met?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, when the government is in a position to do so it will bring before the house, as I have already pointed out, such legislation as may be acceptable to the government in conformity with some parts, not all, of the recommendations made by the MacPherson commission.


Lionel Chevrier: May I ask a further question.


Mr. Speaker:: May I interrupt the hon. member to permit a supplementary question from the hon. member for Assiniboia.


Hazen Robert Argue: I should like to ask the Prime Minister whether, in view of the settlement and in view of the statement he has just made, the Freight Rates Reduction Act will be maintained; that is, that there will be no increase in freight rates, and if so for what period of time?


John George Diefenbaker: The resolution in respect of the matter referred to by the hon. member is on the order paper.


Hazen Robert Argue: Is it correct to say that the increased wage rates will be paid out of railway revenues, and not by the public of Canada?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I have a supplementary question that I should like to ask of the Prime Minister. In view of the settlement which is based upon terms strongly advocated in this house by the Liberal opposition-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Paul Joseph James Martin: -may I ask the
Prime Minister now what disposition is going to be made for those thousands of railway workers who were laid off as a result of the dispute which this government was unable to settle six months ago.


Hazen Robert Argue: There has been no strike.


Mr. Speaker:: I do not want to prevent the Prime Minister from answering, but may I < comment first on the question which is really a controversial statement introduced as a question and not a search for information.

Labour Conditions


Donald Methuen Fleming: It is highly improper.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I submit to you, Mr. Speaker, that hon. gentlemen opposite, in spite of all their talk about the rights of parliament, are trying to prevent us from expressing our opinions. I ask the Prime Minister-


Douglas Scott Harkness: You are infringing on our
rights every day.


Peter Francis Martin: The Minister of National Defence now offers his two cents worth.


Mr. Speaker:: If the hon. member wishes to speak to the point of order I shall be glad to elaborate what I had in mind. He was asking first about a matter of policy which the government has already indicated will be announced in due course. The first part of his question as well as the last part were expressions of opinion. On that account I considered that he had overstepped the bounds of propriety at this time and that he should reserve comment of that kind for debate.


David James Walker: The hon. member for Essex East is constantly flouting your authority, Mr. Speaker.


Peter Francis Martin: Mr. Speaker, Your Honour does not catch all these observations made by responsible ministers. The observation just now made by a neophyte, the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Walker) is one to which Your Honour's attention should be directed.


Mr. Speaker:: If the hon. member wishes to raise this as a matter of privilege I will hear him. Otherwise it is irregular to comment on it.


Peter Francis Martin: What the Minister of Public Works says, Mr. Speaker, really does not need to be dignified by raising it to a question of privilege. The question which I was asking, and which I submit is in order, is what is going to happen-


Mr. Speaker:: If the hon. member would indicate why he submits that it is in order I might modify my view. He is entitled to comment on the ruling I have made, but I wish he would confine himself now to the relevant matter, namely the reasons why his question would be in order.


Peter Francis Martin: Many hundreds of men have been laid off by the Canadian Pacific Railway and by the Canadian National Railways, and I want to know from the Prime Minister-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member is dealing with the substance of the controversy
[Mr. Speaker.)
rather than the principle which to my mind is involved in the way in which he has chosen to bring this matter before the house. I recognize the hon. member for Middlesex West.


William Howell Arthur Thomas: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege.


Peter Francis Martin: Mr. Speaker-


Some hon. Members:: Sit down.


Peter Francis Martin: I will sit down for the Speaker and not for anyone else.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. If the hon. member has not finished his comments in dealing with the point of order, I will hear him. However, I hope I shall not be obliged again to ask him not to deal with the substance of the question and thereby make his point as a point of order.


Murdo William Martin: I am asking the Prime Minister a question about the settlement. I am surely entitled to ask what are the consequences of the settlement. That is the nature of my question.
I ask the Prime Minister now this question. As a result of the settlement of this particular issue between the railways and the railway workers, can the Prime Minister say what steps will be taken under the act passed in this house, to see to it that those laid off will be reinstated?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, the obvious annoyance of the hon. gentleman is apparent over the settlement announced this morning.


Peter Francis Martin: I ask the Prime Minister to answer the question. I now rise on a question of privilege. The right hon. gentleman-


John George Diefenbaker: I have the floor.


Peter Francis Martin: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege.


John George Diefenbaker: These questions of privilege that are not questions of privilege.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. If a question of privilege arises out of what the Prime Minister has said to this point I think the hon. member for Essex East would be entitled to the floor, and I will hear what question of privilege he feels arises.


Paul Joseph James Martin: The Prime
Minister said that I was obviously annoyed over the fact that a settlement had taken place.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Mr. Speaker:: I heard what the Prime Minister said, and in my view a question of privilege does not arise. I will go this far with the hon. member for Essex East and

say it was not an appropriate answer to the question which he addressed, in that it expressed extraneous opinions. As there is in my view no matter of privilege arising from what the Prime Minister has said, I will hear the Prime Minister.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker-


Mr. Speaker:: I am sorry; the hon. member has raised a question of privilege, and it has been disposed of.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I have not even argued the point.


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member indicated that the point arose out of what the Prime Minister had said, and I have indicated that I see no question of privilege in what the Prime Minister said. However, I did express the view that it was not an appropriate answer to the question.


John George Diefenbaker: If I referred to any extraneous matters I did so because of the gratuitous statements made by the hon. gentleman.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Deal with the question asked.


John George Diefenbaker: I would say this. Legislation was passed by this house last December. It was undertaken that those who had been laid off by reason of the fact that a strike had been threatened should be reinstated. Parliament passed that legislation and the provision is embodied in section 4 of the act, which reads:
Every railway company shall reinstate every employee who was laid off since the 1st day of November, 1960, by reason of a curtailment or discontinuance of any of the operations of the company in anticipation of a strike by the employees of the company.
That is the law of the land which was passed by parliament. I notice that in his first statement the hon. gentleman started by saying that thousands were laid off. He got down to hundreds in his second question, and I simply say in answer to him that the law of the land must at all times be enforced.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Of course, but that is not the question.


Mr. Speaker:: I think I should recognize the hon. member for Middlesex West who was good enough to defer his question.


Lionel Chevrier: May I direct a question to the Prime Minister. His colleague the Minister of Labour is reported to have said last night or this morning in reference to the settlement of this strike, that he did not know where the money which would provide for the settlement is to come from. I think I am
Inquiries of the Ministry entitled to ask the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that this is an important matter arising as it does following the recommendations of the royal commission on transportation, and in the light of the deficit of the Canadian National Railways for last year and the estimated deficit for 1961, he will give some indication of how the funds will be provided by parliament, if that is the way it is going to be done.


John George Diefenbaker: It is not for me to add
anything. I hope that following the settlement arrangements will be made by the company, as I am sure they will, to make the payments and discharge the responsibilities which they undertook as a result of the settlement made between the companies and the employees.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Could I ask the Prime Minister to give the house an assurance that no prior undertaking of any description was given to the railway companies before the settlement was reached yesterday?


John George Diefenbaker: I say with the greatest joviality to the hon. gentleman that the experiences he used to have when he was a member of the government of a former day are not being repeated by this government.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I wonder if the Prime Minister could now give a categorical answer to a simple, straightforward question.



WATER RESOURCES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
William Howell Arthur Thomas: My
question is directed to the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources. Can the minister inform the house whether any progress has been made in arranging with the province of Ontario and the Ausable valley conservation authority for the construction of the Parkhill dam? If so, what is the present status of the negotiations?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I thank the hon. member for his question, and I am happy to inform him that the formal agreement will be signed next Wednesday at Parkhill.



INQUIRY AS TO ALTERNATIVE FINANCIAL PROPOSALS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Representing the interests and concern of hon. members in all parties, I wish to ask
4402	HOUSE OF
Inquiries of the Ministry the Minister of Finance a question in a strictly non-partisan spirit. Has the government given any consideration to proposals alternative to those presented by Premier Bennett to the Minister of Finance during the discussions in Victoria on March 24 and 25 with respect to the financing of Columbia river development? If so, is the minister in a position to inform the house of the nature of these alternative proposals?


Donald Methuen Fleming: I did inform the house of those alternative proposals on March 27 when I made a report to the house following my discussions at Victoria with Premier Bennett. I then reported that the premier had put forward two alternative proposals and that the federal government had previously put forward a proposal, and that these three proposals had been discussed fully, frankly and in a cordial spirit in the talks I had with Premier Bennett. The three proposals are set forth in detail in Hansard of March 27 at pages 3400, 3401 and 3402. This subject of the financing of the Columbia river development has, of course, continued to receive consideration on the part of the government.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Apparently no further proposals have come forward. I should like to ask the minister if he would care to comment on a speech made by the leader of the Liberal party in British Columbia at Vancouver a year or two ago-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I think the hon. member has put himself out of court by his introduction. He may have a question to ask, but it is certainly not the administrative responsibility of the minister to comment on speeches made by politicians elsewhere.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I apologize but the hon. member for Essex East has made several comments of a similar kind. My question is, has the federal government given consideration to expropriation in connection with the Columbia river project, presumably through an amendment to the British North America Act?


Donald Methuen Fleming: No, Mr. Speaker; and if anybody in British Columbia said that he evidently does not know what he is talking about.



HARBOURS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Maurice Bourget: I wish to address a question to the Minister of Public Works. Can the minister inform the house if


he has received a resolution from the city of Riviere du Loup regarding port development at Gros-Cacouna and, if so, will he say when the city can expect an answer?


David James Walker: The hon. member for that riding has been in constant touch with me over the past year in connection with that project. I can assure the hon. member for Levis that it is under constant consideration. I do not know whether we have received a resolution in the last day or two, but I shall be very happy to inform the hon. member if such is the case.



INDIAN AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Frank Howard: In the absence of the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration and of the parliamentary secretary I wonder if I could place this question on the order paper. It could then be taken as notice. Has the minister yet received a reply from the attorney general of the province of British Columbia with respect to certain resolutions from Indian bands asking that section 96A(2) of the Indian Act be brought into force on the reservations concerned. Might I also inquire whether the minister can announce what action will be taken as a result of the amendment by the British Columbia legislature of the provincial liquor act in so far as its application to Indians is concerned.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Speaker, the question will be taken as notice.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Mr. Speaker, I would like to address a question to the Minister of Labour. Does the minister not think that plans for the next winter works program should be made known to the municipalities now? If so, does the government intend to take immediate steps in this regard?


Michael Starr: Mr. Speaker, the government is always looking at the situation. The government instituted this winter works program and co-operated with the provinces in respect to any announcements which are made as to the time it will be started.


Hazen Robert Argue: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a supplementary question. In view of the continuing unemployment has the government given any consideration to a summer works program along the same lines?


Michael Starr: Mr. Speaker, the measures this government has taken since this session commenced on November 17 last are taking effect now, and work will be provided the year round.


Lionel Chevrier: With 700,000 people out of work?


Michael Starr: Don't say that with such glee.


Lionel Chevrier: On a question of privilege, Mr. Speaker, I did not say that with glee, I said it with accuracy. The government's policies are not producing the results the minister has said they would.


Mr. Speaker:: Order.



EXTERNAL AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, while the Prime Minister is calming down may I ask his more serene colleague, the Secretary of State for External Affairs, if he can give the house any intimation of the nature of the meetings which he is about to attend. I refer to the NATO meeting and the 14 power Geneva conference. As the minister is leaving tonight may I say to him, in that spirit of good will which now characterizes this particular phase of our discussions, that I am sure the house wishes the minister a successful assignment, and bon voyage. We all hope that these meetings will contribute to the peace of the world.


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, I am very grateful to the hon. member for Essex East for extending these good wishes to me on this trip to Europe.
The NATO meeting is the annual spring meeting of the organization which is attended only by the foreign ministers, and not by the ministers of finance and national defence, as is the case with the December meeting each year. The agenda for these meetings is never made public, but I believe there will be discussions on the present international situation, particularly concerning those parts of the globe in which there is great tension at the present time. Furthermore, there will probably be discussions on long term planning for the NATO organization.
Inquiries of the Ministry
With regard to the Geneva conference, the purpose is to deal exclusively with the situation in Laos. Canada's representatives are attending that conference because Canada is a member of the international supervisory commission, so that our interests will be to further whatever steps will make it possible for that commission to prevent further trouble in that unhappy country and to help bring about a permanent solution under which Laos will be a neutral state unaffected by the cold war.
(Translation):


REQUEST FOR TRANSPORTATION FOR CANADIAN MISSIONARIES
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Gérard Loiselle: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs.
Is the government considering making its transport facilities available to all Canadian missionaries presently in Cuba who would like to come back to Canada?
(Text):


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, we are deeply concerned about the action which is said to have been taken by Cuban authorities against Canadian Catholic priests and nuns in Cuba. The Canadian embassy in Havana is in touch with members of the Canadian religious community there, and the Department of External Affairs is consulting with the Catholic authorities in Canada regarding the action which may be required to assist these missionaries.
It should be recalled that these Canadian missionaries went to Cuba for idealistic and disinterested purposes, and over the years, have won the respect and affection of the people among whom they have worked. In view of the services they have rendered it is our hope that the Cuban government will take all necessary measures to ensure their safety and the protection of their property. The Cuban government is well aware of the importance attached by the Canadian government to securing fair and equitable treatment for Canadian priests and nuns in Cuba. We cannot but regret that the decision of the Cuban government may endanger one of the most valuable ties established between Canada and Cuba. We will certainly do everything we can to assist; at the moment I think it would be unwise for me to go any further.


REQUEST FOR STATEMENT ON SUCCESSFUL FLIGHT OF UNITED STATES ASTRONAUT
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Paul Theodore Hellyer: I should like to direct a question to the Prime Minister.

Inquiries of the Ministry Would the Prime Minister care to comment on the successful space flight of the United States astronaut Alan Shepard this morning?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I am sure that in asking the question the hon. member intended to give me the opportunity to join with him and all other hon. members in congratulating the astronaut and also the United States of America on this outstanding achievement.


NATIONAL REVENUE
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hubert Badanai: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Minister of National Revenue, of which I have sent him notice. It has been reported that in the United States a device is on the market which sells for $40, and which can be installed in an automobile, the function of which is to spot police radar installations. In view of the fact that such a device could easily outwit law enforcement in regard to traffic in Canada, could the minister indicate to the house whether the government would consider-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. If the hon. member's question relates, as it appears, to law enforcement, particularly with respect to speeding and other highway offences, it seems to me he is asking the question of the wrong government.


Alexis Pierre Caron: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, I think your point of view has not been well taken because the hon. member has not completed his question. I understand he is suggesting the imposition of an embargo in respect of this device, and this would be within the jurisdiction of the Department of National Revenue.


Mr. Speaker:: If the hon. member feels that this device is of such consequence that there is some urgency about the matter I am willing to allow him to proceed.


Hubert Badanai: Could the minister indicate to the house whether the government would consider imposing an embargo on such a gadget designed to circumvent efforts of the police to control highway accidents?


George Clyde Nowlan: Mr. Speaker, I received this
question just before I came into the house. I know nothing about the matter, but it would appear to me that perhaps the hon. member attaches too much importance to rumours which appear in the press from time to time, and expresses too little confidence in the ability of police forces to deal with such a


situation. If the dire consequences to which he has referred should arise, I am sure the competent governments will take whatever action is necessary.


Hubert Badanai: There is no rumour about it. TRADE


INQUIRY AS TO CONTRACT FOR SALE TO CHINA
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
James Ernest Pascoe: Mr. Speaker, I should like to address a question to the Minister of Agriculture. Yesterday in this house an attack was made on the China trade agreement for-


An hon. Member:: Order.


James Ernest Pascoe: There was an attack made in this regard because the agreement does not tie Canada to a definite contract as to the amount and price of the wheat to be delivered during the next three years.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member is not entitled to ask a question in pursuance of a debate. If he has a question to ask which seeks information of the government, would he please put his question.


James Ernest Pascoe: Would the minister inform the house that if a definite contract was signed, as advocated by the hon. member for Assini-boia, there would be no opportunity to obtain a better price should wheat prices increase within the next three years?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I think the hon.
member is attempting to revive a debate rather than acquire information.


John (Jack) Henry Horner: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture. Can he inform the house whether there was a definite agreement signed with China for the purchase of wheat and barley?


Hazen Robert Argue: I suggest that the question that is now being asked opens up the very controversy that was raised by the hon. member for Moose Jaw-Lake Centre and on which you commented that this was a method of reviving the debate of yesterday. I do not object to this debate being revived, but I do say that if it is revived all members should be given the opportunity to comment.


John (Jack) Henry Horner: On the point of order, I asked the minister whether an agreement had been signed, and he can answer yes or no. I cannot see where any debate should arise out of a question such as this.


Mr. Speaker:: There was no reference to the debate. The hon. member for Assiniboia takes exception that it is a follow-up of a controversy that arose yesterday, but the question in itself is quite in order. Since the hon. member has not attempted to bring in the controversy the question of fact might be answered, I think.


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: Mr. Speaker, I should just like to answer the hon. member by reading one or two of the statements I made on my return from Hong Kong.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: They are already on the record; why bother?


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: This sentence may be found at page 4205 of Hansard, column 1, third paragraph:
Because of the quantities of grain involved and other factors, the Canadian government felt there should be an over-all agreement to facilitate orderly marketing.
I am now pleased to report that a long term agreement has been signed.
Mr. Speaker, I should like to raise a question of privilege, if I may, concerning what was said in the house yesterday afternoon. It was brought to my attention this morning by the hon. member for Acadia.


Mr. Speaker:: Before the hon. member proceeds, was he present when the matter which he raises was brought up?


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: It was brought to my attention this morning by the hon. member for Acadia that I was accused in the house yesterday of misleading-perhaps I had better read the words of the hon. member for Assiniboia.


Some hon. Members:: What page?


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: Page 4335 of Hansard. The hon. member said:
The minister later on called it "a sale of this order". I think this was a carefully worded statement, and I think it was carefully designed to mislead.


An hon. Member:: Did you expect any better?


Hazen Robert Argue: On a point of order, this very question was raised on a point of order yesterday.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I am not sure whether the hon. minister has completed his statement, but perhaps a point of order would intervene if this matter had been raised yesterday on behalf of the minister. Will the hon. member for Assiniboia give me the citation.


Hazen Robert Argue: I have the copy of Hansard before me but I am unable to give it to you, sir,
90205-6-278
Inquiries of the Ministry without having the opportunity to look it up, but I remember quite clearly what happened. I was accused of saying that the-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. Before the hon. member proceeds, if he asserts that the point of order was raised and disposed of, that would perhaps have a bearing on my ruling, and I should be glad to have the reference.


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: Perhaps I can bring some light to the hon. member for Assiniboia by reading the selections from Hansard where the point was discussed. They consist of only two paragraphs. This is to be found at page 4335 of Hansard. After the hon. member for Assiniboia had made this charge the following took place:


Egan Chambers: Mr. Chairman, I rise on a question of privilege. The Minister of Agriculture is not present, and it is not within the rules of this house for an hon. member to say that another hon. member of this house deliberately designed something in order to mislead.


John Whitney Pickersgill: He did not say that.


Hazen Robert Argue: If the hon. member is right, if that is what I said, I apologize. I did not mean to put in the word "deliberately". But if the minister had meant it to be deliberate he could not have done a better job. I will say I think this statement misled the house.


Hazen Robert Argue: On the point of order, I was accused yesterday of having said that the minister deliberately misled the house. I said at that time that if I had used the words "deliberately misled the house", and I find I did not use them, I was quite prepared to withdraw that accusation and to say that all that had been done was that the government had made a misleading statement but with the word "deliberately" taken out. I suggest that the minister, by referring to the discussion of yesterday, is attempting by a method not within the rules of the house to revive a debate. If that debate is going to be revived and if the minister is going to make argumentative statements, I feel I have a right to reply.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member is now departing from the point of order. His point was that this matter had been disposed of, but there was no ruling. There was some discussion, as is apparent from a review of the text, but as the Minister of Agriculture was not present at the time and the statement related to him I think he is in order in raising the matter today to make certain that he has not been accused of deliberately planning to mislead the house.


Hazen Robert Argue: The accusation was never made.


Mr. Speaker:: If the minister has finished his complaint about this matter we might proceed. If not, I will hear him out.

Inquiries of the Ministry


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: I was going on to point out that the hon. member for Assiniboia went on to say:
I will say I think this statement misled the house.
Then the hon. member for Greenwood said "No", and the hon. member for Assiniboia continued:
I should say it was put in a misleading manner. It certainly misled the country. It misled no less a person than the president of the Saskatchewan wheat pool.
This is my question of privilege, Mr. Speaker. At no time did I mislead the house in any way whatsoever in connection with this agreement. In my statement to the house I said that there had been a long term agreement signed, and I pointed out that under that agreement we had committed ourselves to provide up to six million tons of barley, wheat and flour.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I think the minister is getting away from the question of privilege. He is now endeavouring to justify his opinion that he did not mislead the house. The minister was accused of deliberately misleading the house and whether the hon. member for Assiniboia withdrew that statement, which he should do-


Hazen Robert Argue: I did.


Mr. Speaker:: If I have his assurance now that he did intend-


Hazen Robert Argue: Mr. Speaker, Hansard shows that I did not use the word "deliberately". Hon. members suggest that I did and I hasten to say, as I did yesterday, that if I had used the word "deliberately" I would immediately withdraw it. I do not know how many times a man has to withdraw a statement he never made.


Mr. Speaker:: I am sorry to differ with the hon. member for Assiniboia, but it is clear from what he first said that he imputed a calculated misleading of the house, which is a deliberate misleading of the house. As he has now indicated that he did not at any time intend to impute deliberate misleading, I trust that the minister will be satisfied.


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: Leaving out the question of the word "deliberately" entirely, if an hon. member stands up and says that I as minister misled the house, have I no question of privilege on that score? I say I did not mislead the house, deliberately or otherwise.


Mr. Speaker:: I appreciate the minister's feelings but it has been decided from time to time, almost invariably, I think, when the issue has arisen before, that no question of privilege is raised when it is said of another


member that his statement has misled the house or that he has misled the house. The whole issue in such a question of privilege is intention, and it has been made clear that there was no imputation of intention.


John (Jack) Henry Horner: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege. I refer to page 4335 of Hansard of yesterday and I point out that it appears that Hansard has been deliberately changed. In the printed report the hon. member for Assiniboia is reported as having said, in the last sentence of the first paragraph on the righthand side of the page:
I do not know why the government signed this agreement, and I should like an explanation-
Then my remarks appear as follows:
In other words, you think they should not have signed it?
I distinctly heard the hon. member for Assiniboia say "I do not know why the government signed this lopsided agreement". I went to the Hansard office and checked the record because I wanted to know whether my question appeared therein. The word "lopsided" was in the record when I saw it in the editor's office. The word "lopsided" has been left out and the whole meaning of the particular sentence has been changed. I say the word should be included in the record, because he definitely used the word. I heard him and I checked the record to prove it.


Some hon. Members:: Shame.


Hazen Robert Argue: Mr. Speaker, I do not know why there should be any shame. I want to answer this accusation, and I think I have a right to answer it.


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member has been accused of a rather serious offence of altering the text of Hansard, and he must be heard.


Hazen Robert Argue: I do not know how I can make it clear. I say first of all that I did not alter Hansard and, second, whether or not it was in this particular context, I do remember using the word "lopsided". I assert that I never changed Hansard and did not take out the word. What I said yesterday was that it was a lopsided agreement. When the government of Canada says it will keep the wheat on hand and make further arrangements later, that is a lopsided agreement.


Mr. Speaker:: Order.


UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
William Hector McMillan: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the

Minister of Labour. Do the unemployment insurance commission regulations stipulate that unemployed persons drawing benefits must acquire clearance from the local unemployment insurance office before going out of the area for a day to seek work, or for any other reason?


Michael Starr: imagine this pertains to the situation which developed following the visit to Ottawa by the unemployed delegation. This has been brought to my attention, and I advised the hon. member for Niagara Falls yesterday that I had turned the matter over to the unemployment insurance commission to see whether there is anything in the act which would permit the disallowance of any penalty for being away on that day when they were supposed to report to the unemployment insurance office.


William Hector McMillan: I have a supplementary question. Without reference to the unemployed who came to Ottawa, how long can a man be out of his area and still receive unemployment insurance benefits if he is entitled to them?


Michael Starr: I will get that answer from the unemployment insurance commission when they reply to my inquiry regarding the other matter.


PUBLIC WORKS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Frank Howard: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Public Works without notice. Has the minister received a brief from responsible industrial and other organizations on Vancouver island regarding the great need to built a breakwater at Port Renfrew, in San Juan bay? If so, can the minister indicate what action is contemplated in this regard?


David James Walker: Mr. Speaker, Mr. George Chatterton has been taking up this matter with me for some time and, as I explained to the house yesterday in answer to the question by the hon. member for Vancouver East, we are very glad to know that other parties, now that a by-election is pending, are starting to take an interest in this matter.


Frank Howard: A supplementary question.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. If there is some uncertainty about what the minister said, perhaps a supplementary question should be permitted.
90205-6-278i
Inquiries of the Ministry


Frank Howard: My supplementary question is this. Who is this George-what was the name the minister referred to?


David James Walker: The next member of parliament for that constituency.
(Translation):



PUBLIC SERVICE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Noël Dorion: Mr. Speaker, yesterday morning the hon. member for St. Henry (Mr. Pit Lessard) asked me whether I was aware that no Frenchspeaking representative was on the advisory committee of the Glassco commission, and if so, whether we would see that the situation was corrected.
Having inquired from the appropriate authorities, I am able to answer my hon. colleague as follows.
I must first inform him that within the Glassco commission, there are no less than ten advisory committees. Further, with the addition of Mr. Wilbrod Bherer, chairman of the Quebec Catholic school board, and Mr. Jean-Claude Lessard, chairman of the Quebec hydroelectric commission, both of whom have been appointed on the so-called "public service personnel advisory committee", Frenchspeaking Canadians are represented on each and every committee of that commission. The only reason why the names of those two members were not mentioned in the first report of the commission is that, at the time of its publication, they had not yet indicated their acceptance.
(Text):



TELEVISION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Minister of National Revenue a question arising out of an answer given by the Minister of Transport on Wednesday to a question of mine regarding the revised application of the Saskatoon television station. In view of the fact that this revised application has been forwarded to the board of broadcast governors -perhaps the minister will take the question as notice and answer it later-can he say whether the other party interested will have the opportunity to be heard before any final decision is made by the government?

Supply-Northern Affairs


George Clyde Nowlan: Mr. Speaker, this is a matter that has been referred to the board of broadcast governors. I have no knowledge of it, but I will make inquiries and give a reply at the first opportunity.



FINANCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker,
I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Finance based in part on a portion of the statement made by the Prime Minister yesterday with respect to the Bladen report. The Prime Minister said, as found on page 4321 of Hansard:
I should consider that it is mainly concerned with fiscal matters and the like.
Will the Minister of Finance take into consideration this report of Professor Bladen before presenting his budget, and will he give the house the assurance that he will at least take steps to abolish the excise tax on automobiles?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member will take the trouble to consult the terms of reference of the royal commission in question he will see there precisely what the Prime Minister had in mind in he statement he made yesterday. As to the other matters which the hon. member has chosen to drag into his question, may I saj to him that as he was a minister of a government for many years I do not know why the physician does not direct his counsel to himself.


Peter Francis Martin: You have not answered my question. You do not want to do anything about the automobile industry.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Flynn in the chair.



DEPARTMENT OF NORTHERN AFFAIRS AND NATIONAL RESOURCES

[Stage Direction]
279. Departmental administration including Canada's share of the expenses of the "resources for tomorrow" conference, $1,105,390.
Douglas Mason Fisher: Mr. Chairman, just before closing last night the hon. member for Kenora-Rainy River raised a point as to whether the members of the committee were not getting rather short shrift from the minister, in that his replies to questions raised earlier in the discussion were to be given in letter form rather than rebutted or answered in this forum. I think the member for Kenora-Rainy River, and other members,
[Mr. Pickersgill.J
might have support for their argument in that the minister, seemed to take such an inordinate time to reply to the hon. member for Port Arthur. I make no claim that the points I raised had any particular priority or importance over those raised by any other hon. member.
I think the minister's reaction, despite the fact that he credited me with not being personal, was for that very reason. He thought my criticism was personal. Perhaps I should have made it clear that in my comments on the minister I was really questioning or blaming the Prime Minister in the selection of a minister. It seems to be a ritual here, and I suppose a very nice ritual, that when a man takes over a portfolio everybody is appropriately sweet and nice.
I should like to assure the minister that to me he ranks with Abou Ben Adhem in the sense that I am sure he leads all the rest in those fine qualities of charity, industry, humanity and all the rest. But despite all this I honestly feel that in the serried ranks behind the Prime Minister there might possibly have been found-I do not want to be invidious and select a few names-a man who could have given this particular department more dynamic drive. If this is unfair or unkind, well, so be it.
I should like to assure the minister that my remarks were no reflection upon his industry or his capacity in the past. I am sorry that, from the length of the reply he made, there would seem to be an indication that my remarks touched on a sensitive nerve, and that he took the opportunity while talking about petulant pedagogues-although he did take a bit of a cut at himself-to attack the teaching profession. I should like to point out to the minister that I do not think of myself as a teacher at the present time. I happen to be a politician and will be until this particular parliament dissolves. Then if I want to go back to teaching-


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: You are still in an ivory tower.


Douglas Mason Fisher: No; my criticisms were made not as a teacher but as a politician, and they stand in that position. In a sense he rebutted a few of the points I made. For example, in so far as the resources for tomorrow conference is concerned, the minister started with an inaccuracy. I was not the only hon. member who referred to the resources for tomorrow conference. I would give him the hon. member for Kootenay West, who talked quite a bit about his views on the matter. The minister then said that I should go forth and carry the word about the resources

for tomorrow conference. I suggest to him that there were a great many members speaking in this debate.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I used the plural, and I included all members in that challenge.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I point out that at least two members of this group have done their best to publicize this conference. I further point out that I gave several speeches in my own constituency to groups of professional forresters last year, and I can assure the minister that those foresters had not heard about the conference previously and those meetings were well reported by newspaper, radio and television. I believe the area I represent, in the main, knows probably more about this conference, which I consider very important, than other areas.
I come back to the point I made that if in April, 1961, the editor of a prominent business magazine had never heard of the resources for tomorrow conference, there is a fault somewhere in the publicizing of it. One of the points made was that this was an integrated undertaking and was not the sole responsibility of the minister. I quite agree, but I should like to point out to him that we have the minister of lands and forests in Ontario who, I understand, is on the committee. I have many criticisms of Mr. Spooner, but I recognize that he is an able, I might even say crafty, person. In so far as the minister for Manitoba is concerned, who I believe is Mr. Gurney Evans, I would say he is as qualified a cabinet minister as we have in all the provinces. I have already made my bow to the contributions made by Mr. Levesque who, I think, is doing a grand job in this particular context.
It is for this very reason, when I look at three men with this much ability, that I want to see the federal government take a stronger role. I want to see a strong man in there to make sure we get something from the conference. This is the challenge I put to the minister. It seems to me, Mr. Chairman, there is a common view in this house that if there is a weak minister in one department the opposition should be joyful. I have never looked at it that way. Despite the fact that we may be here as opposition members, I want to see whatever government is in power give good administration, with lots of dynamic force and lots of drive. This has been the basis of my objection, and I reiterate my disappointment.
In so far as the part of this department which I thought was of most importance is concerned, it has been removed now and has its own substance in the Department of Forestry. I should like to come back to what I felt was the key point of my criticisms,
Supply-Northern Affairs and I believe the minister suggested that I said there was nothing going on in the north. I indicated nothing of the kind. My point was that there was not enough going on in the south. I point out to the minister that he is the minister not only of northern affairs but of national resources. I point out to him that he can be pictured with all the Eskimo and Indian children in the world in his loving embrace, or watching what they are doing, but his department has other responsibilities as well.
I suggest to him that he read a brief- if he has not a copy of it I will send it to him-written by C. M. Campbell of Vancouver, British Columbia entitled "Canada: A Nation of Economic Liars". Mr. Campbell is a mining engineer who has been spending many years trying to convince Canadians that they talk too much about their unlimited resources and do not look closely enough at the realities of the situation. I pointed out one reality to the minister in my own area. He has, in his department, a map showing a road projected from somewhere north of lake Nipigon and running up toward Churchill in a certain direction. I know that road is not projected at the present time but is only presented as a preliminary idea in relation to a survey of that area.
In my own area, which contains 40,000 square miles, we want roads. We want the federal government to take the lead in the roads to resources program. However, in addition we still have this southern perimeter that has not been developed with the appropriate roads. The minister suggested that I said there was nothing going on in the north and this was a criticism, but my point was that the minister has a responsibility to keep his eyes on the south, too.
I should like to point out something that may give point to this criticism. There is a story in Time magazine for April 14, 1961, which I should like to put on the record, Mr. Chairman. It reads:
Canada's energetic trade and commerce minister George Hees is not the man to bury himself in his own office, unaware of what goes on around him. His latest interest is the national parks. Travelling to lake Louise to inaugurate a new ski lift, Hees schussed down a slope, slued to a stop, and announced that he intended to speak to northern affairs and national resources minister Walter Dinsdale about opening up the parks for skiers.
"I have skied in a number of places in Europe and Canada, but this is the finest skiing I have had anywhere," said Hees amiably. "It's ridiculous for Canadians to be going to Aspen, Sun Valley and Squaw Valley when they have skiing like this at their back door."
Dinsdale just as amiably agreed that his cabinet man might have something. Added Dinsdale "I have got to get around and see the parks. I haven't seen any of them yet."

Supply-Northern Affairs


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Mr. Chairman, in reference to that quotation may I say that I was never interviewed by any members of the press. That quotation is purely fictitious.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I am glad to get that denial. Is the minister suggesting that he has been around to all the national parks?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I have visited most of the national parks. This applies patricularly to the west. I shall visit the maritime parks as soon as the house rises.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I am very much interested to have this comment. However, I will go on with the story:
Staff members of the national parks branch were less agreeable. Said one: "Private interests naturally are always putting pressure on the national parks system. Hees was going along. He is quite uninformed. Draw a 200 mile circle around Banff, and see what population it takes in. Your prospects aren't really outstanding." The six western ski developments operated by the parks branch are all at less than capacity.
What I should like to point out to the minister is this. The hon. member for Cape Breton North and Victoria and another member from Nova Scotia pointed out the possibility of developing skiing in the maritimes. We have evidence that the national parks branch is interested in this field. I thought if the minister was giving a real review of his department, he would go into this question. I think it is an important one. Here we find that one of his own cabinet ministers is misinformed, according to this story. I do not want to put too much credence in this particular bible; I refer to Time magazine. I think this is an indication that the minister has been less than candid. He certainly has not given us a discursive or full account of his responsibility. He seemed to want to fasten upon the hon. member for Port Arthur instead of giving us some indication of what is going on in his department.
I should like to turn to another matter with regard to which I think he was wrong. In his comments directed to me he implied that I had suggested that the mines, forests and waters committee was ignored by the department. What I asked for was some indication that their recommendations had been followed. I should like to have action. It was not only last year but the year previous and the one previous to that, that this committee made recommendations.
I have gone through the annual report. The minister has his deputy minister right there with him, and he can tell him. I cannot find in the annual report any indication that the committee really had any effect at all upon the department. I know it did with regard to the forestry branch, but what about the museum and some of the recommendations
\ Mr. Fisher.]

there? What about other aspects of this fairly large department? I should like to know what the result has been. I think this assembly deserves this information in an itemized account. What was the detailed reaction to the recommendations of the committee?
I think the minister misinterpreted completely the approach I was taking. I thought this was a good committee, although when it was considering this department I thought it perhaps proceeded a bit too much to the north. However, I credit this procedure to the zeal of the hon. member for Yukon. In connection with this particular matter I might point out that the hon. member for Yukon has made the point a number of times that representation of the north in a parliamentary sense is inadequate. I point out to him and remind the minister-because I am sure he is interested in this point-that there are a number of constituencies in Canada proper which in population and area are comparable -when you realize that population is considered to be the most important factor in determining a constituency-to anything we have in Yukon or Mackenzie River. I know the area sizes. I should like to give the hon. member an example.


Erik Nielsen: I wonder whether the hon. member would mind my pointing out that I made no suggestion that representation in the north was inadequate. I pointed out that there was absolutely no representation in the Keewatin and Franklin districts of the north. That was my point.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I should like to point out to the hon. member that parts of the constituency of Saguenay, the constituency of Churchill, the constituency of Port Arthur, and there is also one in Saskatchewan, in effect have no representation because of the population and where it is located. I have an area from Fort Severn in the northwest corner through to the tip of James bay and almost all the way to the C.N.R. railway line which it is almost impossible for me to cover as a member of parliament. I raise this matter here in order to indicate that the problem of the Arctic in terms of representation also has a parallel in the south.


Erik Nielsen: But the people in those areas have a vote. The people to whom I refer have no vote.


Douglas Mason Fisher: There were these same difficulties in Fort Severn. This was not the case in the last election. My emphasis here again is this. The minister is the minister of national resources. As minister of national resources he has a real challenge in the resources for tomorrow conference, namely to give an indication and a lead to the various provincial

legislatures; to lead, to persuade, to push, to get them moving in some kind of integrated plan of developing our resouces.
In relation to the resources for tomorrow conference, I should like to add that here there a tremendous emphasis on expertise. I should like to hear from the minister how it is planned to popularize the conference. A number of television programs have been set up. Arrangements have been made with the C.B.C. and the private stations to bring to the people what is being said there. Is an attempt going to be made to focus upon the provincial politicians who will be there in order to get from them some expression of opinion on how we are getting along on renewable resources? These are some of the things on which I should have appreciated comment much more than I appreciated having put on the record of the house some comments from an article that I had not read and for which I was not responsible.
Another point I should like to make to the minister in relation to this department is this. A number of years ago we had from the Massey commission recommendations that affected his department. Later on we had some consideration given to this problem by the mines, forest and waters committee. The minister has within his department what I might call some cultural branches. We know that the museum staff situation still has not been cleared up completely. At least we have not the balance in terms of language which hon. members from French Canada are talking about. When are we going to get changes in that branch to give us that balance? The minister did not talk about that matter at all. These are questions that I should like to hear answered in a situation such as this.
I do not want to take an inordinate amount of time. I suggest to the minister that in the future on his estimates he might consider being a bit more discursive and going into more detail. I think we would all appreciate that procedure much more than having a letter. I received a letter last year after these particular estimates were through. It stated that cost benefits analyses were going to be a definite part of the resources for tomorrow conference. This delighted me, because I think you cannot really look at resources without doing that kind of thing. But from following the conference and the way in which the matter was developing I know that the cost benefit analysis part of it almost slipped out of the proceedings altogether. I should have appreciated it much more if that very important statement by the former minister had been made in this house rather than in a letter to me.
In conclusion I should like to wish the minister all the best in his new portfolio. I do
Supply-Northern Affairs not think this parliament is going to last long enough for me to have the opportunity, but if I can in all honesty eat my own words, in so far as they have been critical, I give the hon. gentleman the assurance as fairly as I can that I shall be here to do it.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Before this love feast between the hon. member for Port Arthur and the minister continues, I think I should protest on behalf of parliament against the offer which the minister made last night to the hon. member for Port Arthur, an offer which I think is absolutely outrageous. At the bottom of page 4391 of Hansard and on the following page I read these words:
If, as the hon. member for Port Arthur has indicated he does not feel he is making a worth while contribution in the house, I should like to suggest that there is tremendous scope in our educational program in the north and we would be glad to welcome him into our program when he retires from this honourable house.
Mr. Chairman, these posts in the north are supposed to be awarded by the civil service commission after competition on the basis of merit, and I think it is simply outrageous for a minister of the crown to seek to silence a timid member like the hon. member for Port Arthur by an offer which is an offer to break the law and which, in addition, probably comes close to an attempt at bribery.


Robert Hardy Small: I presume the hon. member is talking from experience when he says that applicants for these posts have to come before the civil service commission before they can be appointed.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I hope so. I once appeared before a board myself, and I hope its decision was made on merit.


Robert Jardine McCleave: I wonder if I could ask the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate whether he would advocate that the hon. member for Port Arthur should serve his apprenticeship to the hon. member for Essex East. That is one way to get into the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources.


Paul Joseph James Martin: How about asking the hon. member for Essex East whether he wants the hon. gentleman as an apprentice?


John Whitney Pickersgill: I indicated earlier to the minister that there were a number of questions that I wished to raise, and I think I shall raise them one by one and give the minister an opportunity to reply to them so that we shall not get mixed up. The first question-and it will not surprise the minister-is one which I approached originally by means of a question on the order paper

Supply

Northern Affairs last Thursday, when I asked the hon. gentleman, as reported at page 4047 of Hansard:
I should like to ask the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources whether his department has recently transferred its advertising account to a new advertising agency.
An hon. member suggested that the question be placed on the order paper. I thought that was a good suggestion, and subsequently I did place it on the order paper. In the meantime, however, the minister did me the courtesy to give me the following reply:
So far as I am aware, several agencies are handling the advertising account of the department. Those agencies have not been changed recently.
I then asked the minister whether he was aware that a story to this effect had appeared that day in the Winnipeg Free Press. Well, the story which appeared in the Winnipeg Free Press that same day read as follows under the heading "Government Job for New Ad Firm":
The new federal minister of northern affairs has farmed out his department's entire national classified advertising account to an agency in his home town which went on a full-time basis, as an advertising agency, only last Friday.
The agency is the J. B. Neill advertising agency, operated by J. Barry Neill, formerly the owner of Barry Neill's clothing store.
Mr. Neill was active in the Young Progressive Conservative organization in Brandon.
All the classified advertising for the department headed by Hon. Walter Dinsdale, including national advertisements for northern teachers and other workers-
Too bad the hon. member for Port Arthur is not here to hear this.
is now being handled by a one man staff from a shared office in Brandon.
In Ottawa, the northern affairs department said Wednesday that the total classified advertising budget of their department in 1960 was $15,000.
Up until last Friday, the proprietor of the agency owned and operated a clothing store. He had a part-time advertising agency, covering some local accounts.
Friday the store was sold, and the agency became a full-time job for the proprietor. It operates from a shared office in a Brandon building, and the department of northern affairs account is the only national account in its files.
The proprietor of the agency said he and his secretary had no trouble handling the northern affairs account, even though it meant placing advertisements in papers across Canada, and some foreign advertising work.
The department of northern affairs pays a standard 15 per cent commission to the agency which handles its advertising.


William Moore Benidickson: Was this the civil service commission?


John Whitney Pickersgill: I also have here an article from the Brandon Daily Sun of the following day. This is headed "City Man gets Government Contract" and it reads:
The head of a one man advertising agency here has confirmed reports that he has received an account from the northern affairs department.


J. B. Neill, a former member of the Brandon city council, said he had been handling the advertising account since early January.
Mr. Neill, former owner of Barry Neill's men's wear store-
I do not think I need to read all this. It is information of the same kind that appeared in the Winnipeg Free Press, and I shall not repeat it.


An hon. Member:: Not a good paper.


John Whitney Pickersgill: The Brandon Sun has never been a paper notorious for the support of any political party except the party of hon. gentlemen opposite.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: No, that is wrong. It is very fair and impartial.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I do not say it is not, though it is hard for me to understand how a paper which is fair and impartial could support hon. members on that side of the house. But I made no reflection on the paper, unless it is a reflection to say that a paper supports hon. gentlemen opposite. I have been acquainted in a general way with the Brandon Sun for about 45 years, and during all that time it has supported the Conservative party as far as I know. According to this story, Mr. Neill said he had made no representations to obtain the account. It just mysteriously reached him, apparently. Perhaps I may continue the quotation:
He said northern affairs minister Dinsdale, who represents Brandon-Souris riding in the commons, had approached him informally about taking the account last December.
The account was awarded the following month. Mr. Neill said he was notified that he was getting it in a letter from the purchasing division of the northern affairs department. Mr. Neill estimated total billings expected annually from the account will amount to anywhere from $10,000 to $25,000. His commission is 15 per cent of this.
He said the account was handled last year by Cooper Advertising of Saskatoon, but "account switches are very routine in the advertising business".
Well, it does seem to me that a government which has cast about it a mantle of righteousness should hardly be found in a situation of this kind. We remember very well the propaganda which the present Secretary of State for External Affairs used to circulate around the country, when he held his previous portfolio, to the effect that the Tories had abolished patronage, and the exhibition he made at that time.
While it may be that the handing out of an account which will only amount to $10,000 or $15,000 is not a very big thing-I would not assert for one minute that it was-it still has important implications. It is considered a big thing when $10,000 a year is paid to members of parliament for a whole year's work, but apparently it is a very small

thing when it is incidental to some advertising man who has gone into business full-time
only since last Friday.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: That is wrong.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Whether it is wrong or right, two very reputable newspapers report that he has sold his store and that he went into business full time last Friday; that would have been a week ago Friday.
What I found strange was the answer given by the minister to my first question. The minister said that in so far as he was aware, several agencies were handling the advertising accounts of the department, and that these agencies had not been changed recently. I am not suggesting that statement was not correct, because I suppose one can interpret the word "recently" in as sophistical a way as one likes, but I should have thought most ministers with experience would have assumed, since they had only been in the portfolio for a very short time, that any change of this kind, particularly in their home town, would be the kind of thing about which there would be a certain amount of interest.
It does seem to me, to put it in the most polite way I can, that in the answer of the minister given the other day in the house I will not say that he misled the house, but I would say his answer was disingenuous. It was not the kind of simple, straightforward answer we expect from a minister who prides himself on being simple and straightforward.
I do not know if this is part of the government's new campaign to aid small business. I do not know about the Cooper advertising agency, if that is the agency that had this business before, but perhaps it had become too big; perhaps it was not right politically, or perhaps because it was in Saskatchewan the minister thought, being from Manitoba instead of Saskatchewan, there should be a switch.
It does seem to me that this is a rather extraordinary performance. After all, if all that is required to place these advertisements is a stenographer with spare time, or someone in the clothing business, I wonder why someone in the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources could not send them directly to the newspapers and thereby save the taxpayers the commission. It does not seem to me it is necessary to follow this procedure if it is as simple as suggested. If the advertising agency is designing the advertisements, wording them and earning something through its efforts, that is another question; but I cannot imagine that the agency would illustrate the advertisements with pictures of the schools in the north where teachers are required, and that 90205-6-279
Supply-Northern Affairs sort of thing. It seems to me this is purely a routine matter and I suggest that the committee is entitled to some explanation from the minister regarding this transaction.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Mr. Chairman, I have
listened very carefully to the words of the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate. He is a man with long experience in this house, as well as in the civil service, and I am sure the expose he has just made, with all the infinite details and ramifications, indicates that when he was a responsible minister of the crown and also an official of the government, he was a master of intrigue. He has presented in his expose many new angles which, in my innocence, I had never even considered. I am interested to discover the source of the hon. member's information in respect of the particular problems he has raised.


John Whitney Pickersgill: The source of my information is the press of Canada.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I understand this information comes from that reputable paper, the Winnipeg Free Press.


William Moore Benidickson: And the Brandon Sun.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Yes, with the support of that other reputable paper, the Brandon Sun, as the hon. member for Kenora-Rainy River has indicated.
The hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate has queried the accuracy of the reply I made to a question he asked in the house the other morning. I hope he has noticed that I said at that time that so far as I was aware there had been no change made recently in the advertising contracts of the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources. I also went on to say that these contracts were of various types, the largest involved being those in respect of the tourist bureau, and that comes under my responsibility. The hon. member's question was worded in such a way as to give no particular indication of the advertising to which he referred.
I am happy to be able to assure him that when I gave my reply the information contained therein represented my knowledge of this subject at that time. There was no sinister intrigue involved, as he has implied.
In reference to the larger contracts, which amount to some $1,500,000, perhaps I should give this interesting piece of information. For some 15 years this total contract was held by one company, the Cockfield Brown Company. That company, I am sure, is not unknown to the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate because of its close association with the party he represents in this house. I should like to inform the hon. member that
4414	HOUSE OF
Supply-Northern Affairs the department of government looking after this large tourist bureau contract in 1957 divided that advertising business on an equitable basis among a series of companies so that everyone could be treated fairly in Canada. I am surprised that the hon. member has made such a mountain out of this molehill.
Last evening reference was made to a matter raised by the hon. member for St. Boniface, who had made representations on behalf of the Grey Nuns' hospital as a suitable historic site, and the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate took pride in claiming his early affinity with the province of Manitoba. Since he abandoned that province it seems he resents the possibility of any service being provided by a reputable representative of the province. If the business in question had gone to someone in Bonavista-Twillingate I suppose he would not have raised an issue.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I would not advise the minister to pursue that line.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I suppose if the business had gone to some of the so called reputable companies that had been associated with this advertising under the former administration he would not have protested. The agency to which he has referred has been in operation for some four years.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Since June 21, 1957.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: That company is owned and operated by a young man who has been named in this house this morning. He is an outstanding citizen of the city of Brandon, formerly an alderman, who has performed outstanding services for that community. He has handled large contracts in the advertising field, and when the classified advertising business became available in the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources it came to that department's attention that this agency was interested, and that individual was asked to apply. The reason I did not know whether there had been any change when I answered the question was that I had not particularly kept in contact with this matter.


John Whitney Pickersgill: You should always keep in touch with your constituents.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I am delighted to know that, following a very thorough investigation by the departmental officials, this young man was considered qualified to handle this particular aspect of advertising.
There were one or two misstatements in the newspaper account on which the hon. member has based his explanations this morning. I


have already referred to the first when I reported that the agency had been in operation for some four years. Mr. Neill, who was formerly associated with Neill's clothing store, has been dissociated from that business for the period he has been operating the advertising agency. There is no cost to the crown in this operation whatsoever. The 15 per cent service charge is paid by the media which receive the advertising. That is the story straight and simple. The hon. member wanted it straight and simple, without any of the interesting and sinister overtones that he imputed, and I am happy to present it in this way.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Perhaps I can ask one
question. Before I do so I might point out I made no accusations whatsoever. I suggested nothing sinister. All I did was put on the record of the house what was in two reputable newspapers in Manitoba. I have no information whatsoever about this matter except what I read in the public press. It seemed to me that it was a matter of sufficient interest to the people of Manitoba and to the press- and I might say I have had several letters about it since the matter was first raised here, which would suggest that there is some interest in this matter-to bring up in this committee. But the minister, in his simple, straightforward explanation, has said something that I must answer; or perhaps I should not say this; perhaps charity is called for in a case of this kind. I will just read what Mr. Neill said, according to the Brandon Sun. I point out to the minister that this is according to the Brandon Sun and not the Winnipeg Free Press.
Mr. Neill said he had made no representations to obtain the account.
He said northern affairs minister Dinsdale, who represents Brandon-Souris riding in the commons, had approached him informally about taking the account last December.
I should like to ask the minister whether what Mr. Neill said is the truth.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Mr. Chairman, when I mentioned the fact that this account was available he indicated that he was interested, and that interest was communicated to the officials of the department.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Well, I have nothing more to say about this matter, sir, but I should like to ask the minister about another matter that has relationship to Manitoba. Some considerable time ago a motion was passed by this house for the correspondence exchanged between the government of Canada and the government of Manitoba with respect to a very big matter indeed in the affairs of that province. I refer to the Red river floodway, about which, before certain events happened four

years ago, the people who compose the present government, including their leader, made very large promises indeed which there seems to be a good deal of evidence to indicate they are very reluctant to keep. There has been a good deal of pressure in the legislature of Manitoba, and I could read from the Hansard of Manitoba to show this, to have this correspondence produced in that legislature.
On every occasion on which this matter has been brought up the premier of Manitoba has asserted that he could never get the consent of the government of Canada to its production in that house. Over a long period, under the hon. gentleman's predecessor, we had a very similar answer given here, but I must say it is to the credit of the minister that he has taken a rather different attitude toward the matter. He told the house the other day that he had secured the approval of the government of Manitoba to the production of this correspondence. I took it from that that it was the intention of the government to produce it.
I have not had time to check whether the correspondence has been tabled today, but I have checked Votes and Proceedings for the last fews days and there is no record to indicate that it was tabled up until last night. The minister ought to make an effort to make the correspondence available to us at once, during the lunch hour today, so that when his estimates are continued this afternoon we shall have an opportunity to examine the correspondence and ask any questions we wish to about it.
This is a matter of the gravest concern to the government of Manitoba and to the people of that province who have been badly enough treated, as the minister knows well, by the present government in the federal-provincial tax-sharing arrangements, and who are in all the greater need of the financial assistance they were led to expect they would get from the present government.
I hope the minister will see that this correspondence is made available to us by 2.30 this afternoon so that it can be examined while his estimates are being discussed. We had in the case of his predecessor, and we have had in the case of some other members of the government, examples of careful efforts to suppress information in this way until the estimates of the department were completed, with the material being produced immediately after, f would not expect the minister to behave in this fashion, and I hope he will accede to my request in this matter.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: On this particular point, I have been giving very active consideration to the question of tabling these documents, and I have been following the questioning
90205-6-279J
Supply-Northern Affairs by the hon. member in the house. I have been trying to push the matter forward as quickly as possible. I now discover that because it is a matter for interdepartmental consideration, I shall have to have clearance with the other departments concerned. So far as I am concerned the documents are waiting to be tabled. The hon. member will understand these problems, but this is the cause of the present delay.
With reference to the activities of the present Manitoba provincial administration in this regard, I should like to remind the hon. member that the only answer the previous administration had to this very urgent problem in Manitoba-those of us who lived through the flood of 1950 will never forget the serious threat it was-was, like King Canute, to order the waves to recede. There is positive action going forward, I can assure you, sir and the hon. member, with the Manitoba government at this time.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Since it is now one o'clock I hope Your Honour will see me at 2.30, because I should like to make a few observations about the kind of action there has been on this project in the last four years.
At one o'clock the committee took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The committee resumed at 2.30 p.m.
John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, at the time we adjourned for lunch the minister had just made one or two observations which really had nothing to do with the present and which I was rather surprised that this young and dynamic minister should make. When the present minister was appointed I thought we would have an end of these tiresome excuses we get from the government to the effect that because something was not done in the early fifties it should not be done in the sixties. That is the normal pattern of the government. When we ask hon. gentlemen why they have not kept their promises they say that Mr. King did not do that in 1946 or Mr. St. Laurent did not do it in 1952 or Mr. Douglas Campbell did not do it in 1950 as though that had any relation whatsoever to the undertakings these gentlemen opposite gave to the people of Canada, the promissory notes they signed which they refuse to pay. Whatever sins of omission-


Gage Workman Montgomery: What a waste of time. You are just wasting time.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Well, Mr. Chairman-

Supply-Northern Affairs


Gage Workman Montgomery: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, when we have to sit here hour after hour and take scoldings from the hon. member such as he is giving us now, it is about time we called him to order because he is not being relevant.


John Whitney Pickersgill: As a matter of fact, the hon. member for Victoria-Carleton sat over here when the greatest filibuster in this country in modern times took place, and I do not recall the hon. member for Victoria-Carleton raising any points of order at that time about the fact that the opposition, which was quite considerably larger then than it is now, talked for hours and hours and days and days-with the most tiresome repetition.


Gage Workman Montgomery: All we are hearing today is purely repetition.


John Whitney Pickersgill: It was anything but repetition to them at that time.


Gage Workman Montgomery: That is all we are
hearing.


Arthur Smith: Are you attempting to make up for it?


William Harold Hicks: Turn the other cheek.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I have turned both of them.


Jacques Flynn: Order. I think we should come back to the discussion of item No. 279.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I was simply doing what I think Your Honour himself decided was quite within the rules when you were acting for the Speaker in the chair, that if an argument had been introduced by some other hon. member and allowed by the Chair a reply should be allowed. I simply trying to point out to the hon. member for Brandon-Souris, who has recently become a member of the cabinet, that if he wants to get ahead in the government of Canada, and heaven knows there is lots of room at the top-


Arthur Smith: He should not take lessons from you.


John Whitney Pickersgill: As a matter of fact, I have quite a lot of experience in this regard.


Arthur Smith: You certainly have.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Of course, the hon. member for Calgary South, who belongs to the kindergarten in this house-


Arthur Smith: You are its
chairman and you have been for some time.
[Mr. Pickersgill.)


John Whitney Pickersgill: The hon. gentleman, who is very vociferous in the house-


Arthur Smith: Get to the point.


John Whitney Pickersgill: -is as usual-


Arthur Smith: You are fumbling.


John Whitney Pickersgill: making his speech when someone else is making his. I do not object to that at all but I do not think it is adding up to very much.


Arthur Smith: What is your subject?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Certainly hon. gentlemen opposite do not like this very much.


Arthur Smith: You have not said anything yet.


John Whitney Pickersgill: What I was saying to the hon. member for Brandon-Souris was that if he hoped to get to the top in this government, where there is plenty of room, I might add, I would strongly advise him to deal with the problems of 1961 and 1962 and not to waste his time making excuses for his lack of action and for the lack of action of his colleagues because of something that happened some time during the fifties. I think the people of Canada are growing very weary of that tiresome kind of argument.
Since the hon. gentleman has chosen to pervert the record of the fifties, and since he has said that the people of Winnipeg will never forget what happened in the fifties, may I say that I hope they do not. I hope they never forget about the greatest generosity that has ever been shown to any people in Canada at any time, which was shown by the people of Canada under the leadership of the St. Laurent government in the disaster fund of that time. Complete restitution was made to everybody of their losses and a considerable amount was left over to remain as a disaster fund which has been very helpful to other parts of Canada. I do not believe my right hon. friend Mr. St. Laurent, or any of his colleagues, have any need to be ashamed or have anything to apologize for in connection with what happened with respect to the relief of the suffering caused by the Winnipeg flood or with respect to the study of the problem of preventing such a thing again.
I call to witness no better witness on this subject than the premier of Manitoba who, speaking in the legislature on March 15 of this year, had this to say about what was done after the flood. He was speaking in reply to a member of the opposition and he said:

Do they not know that the engineering aspect of this matter was thoroughly and I think authoritatively, laid down by the investigation of the Red river basin committee that swung into action about 1954.
This is the premier saying the committee swung into action in 1954. The premier is talking about a committee set up jointly by the government of Mr. St. Laurent and the government of Mr. Douglas Campbell. He describes the study as one which was done thoroughly and authoritatively. I continue the quotation:
And they investigated from an engineering standpoint the various methods that were open for the protection of this greater Winnipeg area.
There is no doubt whatever that this was a very thorough engineering investigation. There is no doubt whatever that to the government of Canada and to the government of Manitoba a very serious engineering problem was posed because here was a tremendous expenditure for engineering works that would have no productive advantage whatever. They would be insurance, insurance against a flood happening every so often, perhaps once in half a century and maybe not even that often. Anybody who knows anything about insurance knows that this is a very big and serious problem, to spend tens of millions of dollars to try to avert a contingency that may not arise for a couple of generations. This is the nature of the problem, and it is not an easy problem for anyone to decide.
Hon. gentlemen who are now sitting on the treasury benches thought it was a very easy problem. Of course, they were rather profuse in the promises they made before 1957. They were going to cure everything in the country; they were going to build the Chignecto canal, build a causeway to Prince Edward Island, which they are still studying, and all sorts of other things all over the country. One of the things they were going to do was to make Winnipeg floodproof for all time to come. This year, they finally got the promise into the speech from the throne.


George Robson Muir: I wonder if I may ask the hon. member a question?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Certainly.


Mr.. Muir (Lisgar):: Can the hon. gentleman tell me what percentage of the money that was contributed to the Winnipeg flood disaster was voluntary and what part of this money came from the then Liberal government?


John Whitney Pickersgill: As a matter of fact, I am sure that in the excellent accounts that were kept at that time, which I do not pretend to carry in my head, the hon. gentleman
Supply-Northern Affairs will be able to find that information. According to the rules of the house, even the government is not expected to provide published information in answer to questions. As a member of the opposition-


George Robson Muir: Then, the hon. member could perhaps tell me-


John Whitney Pickersgill: Perhaps I could finish my answer to this question and then I will answer the hon. gentleman's next question. As a member of the opposition, and not having access to the same research facilities as hon. gentlemen on the treasury benches have, I do not know offhand what the answer is. However, I do not think it has the slightest degree of relevance to the subject we are discussing. Has the hon. member another question he wishes to ask?


George Robson Muir: I think it has some relevance because the hon. member talks about the great amount of money left over from the contributions made by the St, Laurent government. However, I believe that the greatest amount of the money was given voluntarily and the amount that remained was put to other uses because it was voluntary and could be used for other disaster areas in Canada.


John Whitney Pickersgill: The hon. gentleman is quite right, and that is what I said.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Yes; if hon. gentlemen will look at the record-I give an undertaking that even if there are some grammatical errors I will not change them, so we will be able to look at it just the way it is being taken down, however lopsided it may be-he will see that what I said was, under the leadership given by the St. Laurent government the people of Canada subscribed in the most generous way I can remember to the relief of this disaster. These contributions were used and there was a great deal of money left over which was set aside as a national disaster fund. Perhaps I could clear up this point for the hon. member for Lisgar. If this money had been contributed out of the treasury, there would not have been any left over, of course. It was because it was in large part a voluntary contribution that some special legislative disposition had to be made. I do not want to denature the record in any way.
What I want to say is, so far as that situation was concerned, so far as the relief of the flood victims was concerned, it was never more complete in the history of Canada than it was in that case. So far as the studies of how to prevent such a situation in the future are concerned, we have Mr. Roblin's

Supply-Northern Affairs own word for it in the provincial legislature this year that the most authoritative and thorough studies were initiated by the previous provincial government and the previous federal government. The suggestion of the minister that there was some neglect by his predecessors in this matter falls completely to the ground. Mr. Roblin has been premier of Manitoba now for three years, and he has certainly been trying to screw some money out of the federal government for this project every year. He is becoming increasingly embarrassed about this as he is about other aspects of his relationships with the federal government.
There are many of us who are beginning to feel rather sorry for Mr. Roblin. I have no doubt that he feels very sorry himself that he ever coined that slogan which I am afraid will never be forgotten, "As Dief did Duff will do." If Mr. Roblin could change it, I think he would say, "As Dief did Duff won't do", if he wanted to make any appeal to the people of Manitoba today. I am not here, of course, to appeal for charity for Mr. Roblin. All I am doing is trying to get this correspondence which has been held up deliberately by this government now for three years, and which the minister gave a very lame excuse for not producing earlier today. I hope he is going to produce it now.
As I say, for three years this correspondence has been held up. Nothing has happened. The legislature has now prorogued for this year, and if anything further is going to be done in co-operation with the federal government there will have to be another session of the legislature for that purpose. As I say, nobody in Manitoba can understand the reason for the delay or what is holding it up. I daresay some of us here with some experience with this government could give the answer. Probably the answer is to be found in a seven letter world starting with "f" and ending with "g". I leave hon. gentlemen opposite to fill in the blanks.


Jacques Flynn: Shall vote 279 carry?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Just before the vote carries I should like to make some passing references on the subject that has just been discussed at some length by the hon. member for Bona-vista-Twillingate. As I explained in my reply this morning, the reason for the delay in tabling the documents has arisen from their interdepartmental nature. Just to demonstrate the desire of my department to be as helpful and co-operative as possible, may I say that I am quite happy to table at this time, if it is the wish of the committee, the documents which come directly under my purview. Where there is interdepartmental involvement, the hon. member will understand that I have


no right to table those documents at this time. However, I shall be happy to let him see the documents which I am sure will ease the problem that has been discussed at some length here today.
It seems to me that we are becoming deeply involved in history during the consideration of these estimates and I feel that it is high time that we should move on to present activities and anticipated future activities. I am not going to pose as an authority on history but there has come to my attention something which I think should be brought before the committee in reference to a historical discussion that took place here last night. It has to do with the highly controversial question as to who first came to Canada's shores. Let me quote from the authorities. The hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate last night was referred to as the "land-locked mariner from Manitoba". I think that was a more accurate description than the member who made it at that time realized because, on looking into the record of an important voyage of discovery-a record that was made in Sir John Barrow's book entitled "Voyages into the Arctic Region", I find that in 1776 a certain Lieutenant Pickersgill, in command of His Majesty's brig the Lion was directed to proceed to Davis strait for the protection of the British whale fishers-


John Whitney Pickersgill: That is right.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: -and then to continue up the strait and explore the coast of Baffin bay. Barrow records the fact that Pickersgill eventually anchored the Lion in a place to which he gave the name "Musquito Cove".
In case the hon. member's colleague from Essex East should feel neglected, I might also remind the committee that the first of these northern explorers, the privateer Captain Frobisher, bore the Christian name of "Martin". That is the contribution I should like to make to this historical discussion. I could add-


John Whitney Pickersgill: You could add more about Pickersgill.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Yes.


Paul Joseph James Martin: You could add more about Martin.


An hon. Member:: Roll in another barrel.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I might say that the descendants of the said Lieutenant Pickersgill have been all at sea ever since.
We have a little bit more time at our disposal at the moment and perhaps, because it seems to be the wish of the members of the committee, I might give answers to some of the specific questions that were raised last evening.

I would reply to the hon. member for Queens-Lunenburg and inform him that one of the subjects he raised, namely the possibility of the blockhouse hill in his constituency being recognized as a historic site, will be considered on the May agenda of the national historic sites and monuments board.
The hon. member for Kenora-Rainy River inquired about progress on the civic centre at Banff national park. X am happy to inform him-and unfortunately he is not in the chamber-that tenders have been asked for in connection with this project and we hope that it will be under way just as quickly as possible. He also inquired whether it was established policy in national parks to assist in the construction of centres of this kind. I should merely like to remind him that Banff is almost a unique community in the national parks system. In fact, so far as I know, there are only two such communities where there is all year round residence. Therefore, this instance might be regarded as almost unique.
The hon. member for Cape Breton North and Victoria made reference to Englishtown. I can assure him that this question will be on the May agenda of the historic sites and monuments board. He will also be interested to know that the HD4 Hydrofoil will be provided with a suitable shelter in the fiscal year 1962-63 according to present plans.
The hon. member for Shelburne-Yarmouth-Clare brought to the attention of the committee some interesting recommendations. I think he is aware of the fact that there is at Yarmouth already a monument to shipbuilding.
I should like to refer back to one matter in particular referred to by the hon. member for Athabasca. I refer to the question of representation by the R.C.M.P. on the Northwest Territories council. I assure him that the contribution made by the R.C.M.P. to the development of the north down through the years is fully recognized by the department of northern affairs. Any change in the membership of the Northwest Territories council is merely in line with the policy to proceed to an autonomous position in the territories just as quickly as circumstances allow. We like to feel that the territories are independent in their governmental function as far as is possible under the present arrangement.
For some number of years on the Northwest Territories council, where there were formerly representatives from the various departments of government, we have been and are now following the policy of bringing in private citizens. In fact, now there are elected members as well as appointed representatives. The Department of National Defence is no longer represented. Neither is there direct representation from the R.C.M.P.
Supply-Northern Affairs However, let me repeat that the continuing contribution of the R.C.M.P. is full recognized.
The hon. member for Athabasca will also be interested to know that the road construction program in Wood Buffalo national park is proceeding according to schedule. By next year we shall have completed the road from Fort Smith through to the western boundary of Wood Buffalo national park. All that will remain for the continuous highway between Vermilion and Fort Smith will be a road built by the provincial government to the boundary of the park. I might also add that the total cost of this project will be $2,340,000.
Those are some specific answers to specific questions. The committee is in a congenial mood this afternoon and I am sure we can proceed to consider further items of the estimates.


George Ewart Nixon: I understood the minister to say that some of the applications for preserving historic sites in Canada are to be dealt with next month. If that is the case, I wonder whether the minister would take a personal look at the old stone house in Sault Ste. Marie and see whether something could not be done to preserve that building as a historic site. It was built in 1812 or 1814 and it is, I believe, the oldest stone building in Ontario north of Toronto.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: As the hon. member has suggested, the historic sites and monuments board will be meeting toward the end of the present month. I shall be happy to look into this question but I should like to remind the hon. member that the basic criterion for having any historic site considered as a national historic site is, of course, the national aspect. It must have national significance. There are many other historic sites which deserve to be commemorated and such commemoration has been undertaken in the past, sometimes by provincial governments and at other times by local bodies. Subject to that reservation I shall be happy to look into the matter.


John Richard Garland: On several occasions I have raised the question of the proposed United States legislation regarding duty free goods which United States citizens are to be allowed to take back from Canada. I wonder if the minister has anything to say in this regard.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I can assure the hon. member that I have been following this question very closely since it first came under discussion in the house. As he is no doubt aware, the matter is before congress at the present time and to make certain that Canada's viewpoint on this question is in no way misunderstood by the legislators in the United

Supply-Northern Affairs States, I once again, only recently, pointed out through our Department of External Affairs the importance of this subject to Canada and in particular to the Canadian tourist industry.


George Robson Muir: Could I ask the minister to take a good look at the posibility of having Nellie McClung's home in the town of Mani-tou, Manitoba made a historic site? This great Canadian woman lived in this house which has been kept in a good state of preservation during the years when she did much of her writing and it seems to me the people of Manitoba would be very pleased if the minister would have this considered as a historic site.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Since the hon. member for Lisgar is very anxious to commemorate the home of one leading Liberal in Manitoba, may I ask if he would also suggest that the home of the Hon. Thomas Greenaway in Crystal City should also be considered.


George Robson Muir: I did not know it was in order to direct such a question to an ordinary backbencher but I would think that though Mr. Thomas Greenaway is probably one of our better known Manitoba citizens his work is hardly of such a national nature that his home should be enshrined as a national historic site. I would suggest, however, that the hon. member might perhaps consider the home of the Hon. Robert Rogers.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Is it still there?


Douglas Mason Fisher: There is a tolerance and liberality about the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate that I wish I could share, but I cannot reach it. He put on the record his case from the Brandon Sun and the Winnipeg Free Press and, frankly he is so tolerant I cannot understand his reasoning. I did not know anything about the case before he put it so clearly and it seems to me the minister's answers were inadequate.
I should like to remind the minister that several years ago we had a hassle over the Riding Mountain national park situation. I can remember that there were charges and counter-charges of patronage, and the discussion did not simmer down until the hon. member for Brandon-Souris came in with his soft, susurrus voice and settled it all; we really did not believe that patronage could rear its ugly head at the park if the hon. member had any connection with the affair.
I do not think that the passage of these estimates has been marked, so far, with blood and fire, but I might ask the minister to give us some further explanations. I will put a few direct questions to him. Was Mr. Neill a member of his party organization at


any time? Was Mr. Neill by any chance a census enumerator? Did Mr. Neill have any great interest in advertising before? I tried looking through directories of firms in the west-a very inadequate source to look at, I admit-but I could not find any indication that this man had been long in the business. The hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate is not suspicious at all, but for me there is something coincidental about this business starting up in 1957 in relation to this contract and the minister taking over his portfolio. If the minister were to tell me point blank that Conservatives rank first'-and we had some indication of this in connection with the census matter-that would be fine, but I did not realize this applied to such things as advertising contracts.
There is no point in the minister giving to me the same answer he gave to the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate because Cockfield Brown means nought to me though it may mean a great deal to the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate. I believe there is a C.C.F. advertising concern out in Regina but whether it has had any jobs I cannot say. I do not want it to have this job. I would simply like to know if it is a fact that we have here a Conservative who, on the government coming into power, became an advertising agent; and then, when the present minister became minister of northern affairs -an old hometown boy and all that-he was given this contract. Is it as simple as that? Was the contract put out to tender? Did a number of Conservatives bid for it? For all I know there may be a whole bunch of Conservative advertising men in Brandon. I think the minister should give us a more detailed explanation because I am just not as tolerant and liberal today as the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I am sorry that my learned friend did not grasp the full import of the reply I gave to the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate. I thought I had made a complete explanation. The hon. member has gone back into history with reference to Riding Mountain national park and I assure him the reason that particular subject ceased to come under discussion in the house was because the difficulty was straightened out, as he well knows.
Regarding the advertising accounts, I understand that tenders are not involved in the advertising accounts of government departments, particularly with reference to the classified type which has come under discussion today. I would reiterate that it is the publicity media, whether it be the press, magazines, radio, or television, which pays

the service charge on these particular advertisement items. There is no charge to the crown whatsoever.
So far as the qualifications of the manager of the Neill Advertising Agency in Brandon is concerned, I would repeat that he is a very reputable businessman who, at a remarkably young age, has shown considerable enterprise not only in the business world but also in public service.


John Whitney Pickersgill: And in the political world.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: He has been active in the past in the Young Progressive Conservatives' Association, which I think demonstrates he is a man of considerable discernment and wisdom. While checking further regarding his credentials'-this is something I did not know before-I found he is accredited to a reputable advertising agency in Canada.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I am pleased to find this candour at last. It is of assistance. I think the people of Canada will be pleased to know that it is a help to be a young Conservative or a Progressive Conservative if it is desired to acquire these advertising contracts. These are facts of life which are sometimes denied. I am not complaining about this at all but now we know that if one wants an advertising contract with the minister's department it helps if one is a Conservative.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Mr. Chairman, I would like to point out that Mr. Neill's advertising agency is the only one in the city of Brandon, and if there were an advertising agency operated by a C.C.F. supporter we would be pleased to consider him.


Douglas Mason Fisher: What advantage does the city of Brandon have which flows from the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources? I am sure the minister made his offer in respect of all of Canada, but does he intend that all those individuals should line up to see him about an advertising agency? There is an advertising agency in Port Arthur which is run by a Conservative, and I am wondering whether he would be a fair candidate. I suggest that we should let him know about this situation.
I would like to ask the minister a question about something else. I realize he is just getting into his job, and I am sure he is reviewing these things, but the Massey commission made a number of recommendations in relation to certain agencies under the control of the minister's department. I wonder whether the minister would care to comment regarding the steps which have been taken to implement these recommendations, and perhaps comment about those which he does not intend to implement at all. I am
Supply-Northern Affairs not interested in the war museum particularly but much more in regard to situations such as the one discovered in Newfoundland by Mr. Smallwood who said the federal government should be stopped from shanghaiing relics for monuments from the sacred soil of Newfoundland. I believe the Massey commission made certain recommendations in regard to both national relics and monuments, and those bearing a relationship to the United States, and I would like to know what the minister has done in this regard. As far as I am aware there has been no legislation introduced in this house bearing on that subject.
I would also like to ask the minister about the part French Canadians play in the structure of the national museum? We all remember the unfortunate affair involving the separation of Dr. Rousseau. I understand he is now over in Europe carrying out some kind of task. The minister is probably aware that Dr. Rousseau was separated from his rather important job in the department, and I am wondering what has been done in this regard. The Prime Minister is always talking about our bicultural and bilingual country, but it is sometimes difficult to appreciate that our French Canadian representatives have a share in the upper management of these particularly cultural assets, such as the national museum. I wonder whether the minister could let us know what he is doing in regard to seeing that this balance is redressed.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Mr. Chairman, I see my hon. friend is continuing to play his role as a pedagogue in assigning certain research programs to me this afternoon. I assure him I am vitally interested in the recommendations of the Massey commission with respect to many matters, particularly those which come within the purview of my department.
He will remember that one of the recommendations had to do with the protection of archaeological sites in Canada, and the artifacts from those sites. Up until quite recently many of these irreplaceable archaeological treasures had been lost to Canada by reason of uncontrolled development and exploitation. We have been very active in the protection of these sites, mainly through encouragement in the training of Canadian anthropologists. This is something which cannot be resolved overnight by this method; that is, by ensuring that there are a sufficient number of qualified Canadian professional personnel to take care of this important work.
One of the difficulties in finding suitable bilingual staff for our museums arises from the fact we do not have a sufficiently large number of Canadians with the necessary professional training who possess bilingual

Supply-Northern Affairs ability. I am happy to say that we have made certain progress in this regard. The national museum staff includes 21 members who speak French fluently, of whom four are professional scientists. A number of other staff members have a working knowledge of the French language, but great difficulty has been found in filling some of the highly specialized positions at the museum with staff who are bilingual and it has been necessary in some cases to find applicants from outside Canada. We are quite confident that, with the encouragement which has been given to training Canadians, this difficulty will be resolved within a comparatively short time.


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Mr. Chairman, I wish to ask the minister a few questions in regard to the item covering museums. I would like to know whether Dr. Rousseau has been replaced by a French speaking employee at the museum.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Mr. Chairman, there has been no permanent replacement found as yet. This is the human history side of the museum's activities and the director of the museum, Dr. Russell, is serving in an acting capacity until such time as a suitable candidate is found.


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Do I understand from the minister's remarks that he expects to choose a French speaking candidate for this position?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Mr. Chairman, we are seeking very diligently for the right sort of candidate, and if we find a French speaking candidate with the necessary qualifications we shall be happy to consider him.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Mr. Chairman, I should like to ask the minister a question in relation to national parks, and the matter of skiing. I would like to know what representations have been made in the past by the Canadian ski patrol association in respect of extending its activities into national park areas or, if not extending their activities into that field, perhaps in helping to standardize safety patrol procedures which may be carried out at present by national parks personnel.
In saying this I am not suggesting any criticism of what the parks may be doing- I do not know what they are doing-but I should like to know whether in this rather fairly rapidly growing safety movement in the field of skiing, and skiing is the fastest growing sport we have that relates to tourism, there is any liaison established between the parks and the skiing patrol association and, of course, the C.A.S.A. itself, which is in a sense the parent organization of the Canadian ski patrol.


I have one last question in relation to historic sites and monuments that I should like to put to the minister. A group of the citizens of Fort William have become enthusiastic about re-creating the old Fort William. A committee has been organized, I think it is called the committee to restore the old fort, and it has sent letters to a number of people, including the members for Fort William and Port Arthur and also the Prime Minister. Having regard to our present budgetary position, 1 was somewhat amazed at the very optimistic reply the Prime Minister gave to this association, indicating that there is an excellent chance that government support of a very substantial kind will be available to renovate this fort or to create the old fort anew. Since the scale of expenditure to recreate the fort would be in the nature of several hundred thousand dollars and since, as I said, the Prime Minister was, in the letter I read, fairly optimistic about it, can the minister indicate whether this whole question has been brought to the attention of his department, and whether the Fort William fort is one of the projects that is being appraised or analysed at the present time?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I am very pleased to see the interest of the hon. member in the matter of skiing development in our national parks. Obviously he has caught the enthusiasm of the Minister of Trade and Commerce in this respect. I do not know whether he himself is personally a skier, but I can assure him that one of the activities we regard as highly suitable to the fundamental purpose of the national parks is that of winter skiing. Boating, hiking, swimming, and all those activities which are closely associated with the enjoyment of nature are the type of recreational activities we like to encourage.
In the mountain parks, of course, the skiing development has gone on much more rapidly than in other areas. I am happy to inform the hon. member that in Riding Mountain national park there is a ski site under development at the present time. I think perhaps there is a slight misunderstanding. The national parks branch as such does not actually participate in the skiing operation itself. It provides the site and develops it and then it is turned over to private enterprise to operate as a recreational feature.
In regard to the safety patrol group, I can assure the hon. member also that wherever there is skiing activity in our national parks the skiers themselves see to it that they have close liaison with the ski patrol.
With respect to the other question, the old Fort William site has been very thoroughly examined and investigated by the historic

sites and monument board. As the hon. member knows, this board is made up of outstanding historians in Canada, including men of the stature of Dr. Creighton. They are selected to advise the government on the historic facts surrounding those various sites.
The difficulty in connection with Fort William-and I believe this information has been communicated to the hon. member-arises from the fact that the original site is no longer available. We cannot have the historic site, of course, if it is no longer available. That has been the fundamental difficulty in connection with the development of this historic site.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I have one further question to ask the minister. It relates to a private member's public bill on the order paper at the present time. Since the minister heads the department responsible for this whole question of historic sites and monuments, I wonder whether he has given any consideration to helping the hon. member for Brantford, or helping to sponsor as a government measure, relating to the idea of creating a national holiday of the birthday anniversary of Sir John A. Macdonald? Has any consideration been given to that matter by this particular committee? I know it is an abstract thing rather than something concrete, but after all the creation of a day every year as an annual holiday would be a monument, I am sure the minister would agree. I should like to know whether he has given any consideration to it?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Oh, Mr. Chairman, although my department ranges far and wide, and although the hon. member does not think I do anything, let me say that despite the fact that we are a busy department, this is one function that does not come under my purview. The question that he has raised would be regarded more as a historic institution than a historic site. I mean that in a sociological sense, because it is certainly true that Sir John A. as the founder of this nation, as the man who first established the national policy which made this country great, should be commemorated in this way. The present government is carrying on this national policy and moving Canada forward from strength to strength and I am sure we appreciate the hon. member's recognition of the fact.


John Whitney Pickersgill: If we can get back once again into the twentieth century, sir, I should like to ask the minister whether Fort Rodd in Victoria has been taken over by the historic sites and monuments board? Can he tell me at the same time on what date this request was first made or the matter was first
Supply-Northern Affairs brought to the attention of the historic sites and monuments board, and on what date they made their decision?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I have not the specific dates referred to by the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate. He himself implied just a few moments ago in a reply that he did not carry these detailed statistics around in his head, and neither do I. But I do assure him that Fort Rodd has been taken over by the historic sites and monuments board, and it has been recognized by that board as a national historic site.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Perhaps during the course of the passage of the estimates the minister can get the information and give me the date on which the matter was first brought to the attention of the historic sites and monuments board and the date on which the decision was made. I should really like to have that information later on but I am not pressing for it immediately.


George Ewart Nixon: Mr. Chairman, I have before me some figures on several items of the estimates of the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources. One of them relates to travelling and removals. The figures in 1957 were $625,854. The estimate for this year is twice that, $1,273,968. I should like the minister to tell us if he will the reason for this and also for the increase in telephones and telegraphs which in 1957 amounted to $40,869. The figures are over three times that in the estimates for 1961-62, $127,811.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Mr. Chairman, as was pointed out several times during the course of this discussion, there has been a great increase in activity in the north during the past two years, and the increase in expenditures to which the hon. member has referred is related directly to this tremendous upsurge of northern development. Transportation is one of the major difficulties in northern Canada, as the hon. member will appreciate. Northern Canada constitutes 40 per cent of our total land area; it is rich in minerals and resources of all kinds, including human resources. This increased cost is merely a reflection of the increased activity and the same applies, of course, to the cost of telephones, telegrams and so on. There was a time not long ago when such communication was quite impossible, and this is all evidence of the tremendous development taking place in the north.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, I have had a few minutes to look at this correspondence with the Manitoba government which the minister explained was incomplete, although I must say I have not been able to peruse it very carefully. I think the minister owes
4424	HOUSE OF
Supply-Northern Affairs the committee a better explanation of the delay of the government in dealing with the Winnipeg floodway than simply to read about Lieutenant Richard Pickersgill who went to Baffin land in the late eighteenth century. I have here, for example, a letter written by Mr. Roblin, the premier of Manitoba, on February 4, 1960; not 1961, but 1960. The letter was addressed to the minister's predecessor, of course, who may have been absorbed with visions at that time that did not embrace the Red river. The second paragraph reads as follows:
I am naturally pleased to have this advice-
The advice referred to was that contained in the previous paragraph, that a member of the water resources branch had been appointed to consult with the officials of Manitoba.
-and I hope that the necessary approval will be forthcoming in time to allow us to take advantage of the coming construction season.
That was the construction season of 1960. February 4, 1960 happened to be the same day, of course, that the Minister of Labour was on the air on "The Nation's Business" telling us that the recession was over, and it may be that in February 1960 the government did not think it was important to have work in Manitoba in the summer of 1960. However, before the summer of 1960 was over even the most obtuse members of the government must have been convinced that any project that would supply more work would have been a useful thing to undertake. But Mr. Roblin, of course, did not get any construction under way. He did not get any approvals in 1960.
Then there are some other bits and pieces of correspondence involving other departments that would have to be fitted into the jigsaw puzzle but those departments have not yet seen lit to bring down their correspondence. However, I have here a letter which it is not possible for me to understand fully because the letter in reply to which this letter is written to the present minister by the minister of agriculure of Manitoba is not here. The letter is dated January 3, 1961, and it makes certain proposals with respect to getting on with the floodway. I gather that the minister of agriculture of Manitoba has ministerial responsibility for this project which the Manitoba government seems to want to carry out but in which the federal government seems very reluctant to take any part notwithstanding its promises of 1957 and 1958. Let me read the last paragraph of Mr. Hutton's pathetic appeal in January of 1961 when unemployment had reached the highest peak it had reached since the thirties. Mr. Hutton wrote as follows:


I would request your early consideration of the above proposal, your advice as to whether it meets your approval and if so, assurance that your government would be prepared to include the cost of the above services as part of the shareable costs of the floodway project.
I draw attention to these words, and point out this is from a Tory government, a very friendly government, one supposes. This was in January of this year.
I am sure you realize that it is imperative that this project get under way as quickly as possible but that before doing so the very considerable amount of planning and design work must be undertaken. Your earliest possible consideration and advice in respect to this matter would therefore be appreciated.
That was on January 3 of this year. I look at the calendar and see it is the 5th of May. The record is not quite equal to that of the Minister of Finance with respect to depressed areas but very nearly so. Four months have gone by and there has been no answer. I assume there has been no answer because if there had been one I assume it would have been produced with the correspondence. If this is the way the government treats a friendly Tory government, you can imagine the way it treats governments that do not have the advantage of having in them young Conservatives, as the hon. member for Port Arthur pointed out. I think the minister should tell us what has happened with respect to this floodway.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Are you going to run in Manitoba in the next election?


John Whitney Pickersgill: No.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: It is too bad, Mr. Chairman, that the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillin-gate ever forsook Manitoba.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Not too bad for Manitoba though.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: We would have a wonderful advocate had he not shaken the dust of that province from his feet and sought fame and fortune in eastern Canada. In reading the letter he has been rather selective.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I read just the last paragraph and I said so.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I think that reading just the last paragraph did not give the full purport of the document. Actually what the minister of agriculture of Manitoba was discussing was the idea of setting up a joint committee to consider the engineering problems with respect to the floodway development. I am happy to assure the hon. member that that committee is operating and busily engaged in working on the necessary details.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Would the minister tell us what the division of costs is going to be for this project?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: As I have intimated when questioned on this point on earlier occasions, this is a subject that is under negotiation and it is one of the reserved items in the documents.


John Whitney Pickersgill: The Manitoba government cannot proceed unless they do what Mr. Rob-lin, I thought rather foolishly, threatened to do on one occasion, pay for it themselves. He did not know with whom he was dealing when he made that remark, and I suspect it was a bad day for Manitoba when he made it. The question of the division of costs has been discussed for two years. It has been discussed in the legislature and, judging from the debates which I have read and some of which I had in my hand a few moments ago but sent to the Hansard office, Mr. Roblin has been red-faced and embarrassed over this matter because his friends were not coming across. It seems to me that surely this is not such an insuperable problem. Surely the government can make up its mind about a question of this sort if indeed it ever intends to do anything about it, which a lot of us suspect it does not.


Douglas Mason Fisher: There is one point about which I have not asked the minister. I do not think it is a particularly delicate one, but several months ago I noticed in the Manchester Guardian a news story to the effect that the bishop of the Arctic was in Britain recruiting young men in particular to work in the Arctic. I am sorry I do not have the quotation here. I could not find it in my file. However, I think it is fair to say that the gist of it was that it was extremely difficult to obtain within Canada itself the kind of people to carry on the many necessary chores, not particularly in religious work, although that was involved, but in teaching and other fields. Can the minister indicate to me as someone who does not know very much about the matter whether it is a fact that the Anglican schools are having great difficulty in securing teachers and that they have to recruit from outside of Canada in order to keep the facilities operating?
I should like to know also, if this should be the case, if these schools in the north run by the Anglican church are being staffed by people from England? Is any consideration being given to giving some kind of assistance so that Canadian teachers can be put in these schools?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: In reply to this question I shall have to correct a misunderstanding. The schools in the Arctic are federal schools; they are not church schools as such. The
Supply-Northern Affairs churches have the responsibility of operating the residential hostels, which are a very important adjunct to our school operation because of the distances involved. They are federal government schools, and are operated as such.
In so far as the problem of staffing the schools in the north is concerned, I shall be quite frank and say there is some difficulty in getting suitable candidates as teachers. It was because of this situation that I suggested the hon. member might be interested in going north. I assure him, in reply to what the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate said, that should he indicate his desire to go north his application would be duly processed by the civil service. It is done in that manner so that we can get the best possible candidates.
While it is difficult to get suitable candidates, I might also add that I am informed each and every teacher in the federal schools in the Arctic is a Canadian. I am very happy to inform the committee that with the growing interest in the north, more and more of our young men and young women are willing to come forward and pioneer in this new frontier.


Douglas Mason Fisher: In so far as this point is concerned, one of the reasons for my misunderstanding was probably the explanation the minister gave some time ago in connection with the difficulties of teaching French in northern Quebec and Labrador. The minister's answer seemed to stress the Anglican religion of the people, and I assumed this meant the framework of the school system still had a religious bias or religious foundation. I quite clearly gained the impression from the reported remarks of the bishop of the Arctic that he was recruiting for more than just members of the clergy to go into the north.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: No, Mr. Chairman, I can assure the hon. member that he was recruiting missionaries for work in the north. It is unfortunate the wrong impression was left or created by the reply to the question the other morning. The denominational aspects in our Arctic schools enter in in relation to the selection of teachers. Where there is a greater percentage of Anglican adherents, the teacher is from the Anglican faith. Where there is a substantial majority of the Roman Catholic faith, the teacher is of the Roman Catholic faith.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I should like to ask the
minister to clarify his statement. The minister is talking about schools in the Arctic. The question was asked in relation to Eskimo schools in the province of Quebec. The minister is not suggesting that his department is running schools in the province of Quebec?

Supply-Northern Affairs


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Yes, Mr. Chairman. If the hon. gentleman will examine his map of Canada, he will find there is an area of the Arctic in the province of Quebec.


John Whitney Pickersgill: That is not my question at all. I asked if the department of northern affairs is conducting any schools in the province of Quebec?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Yes. It has been pointed out to me, Mr. Chairman, that there are eleven Eskimo schools operated by the department of northern affairs in northern Quebec.


John Whitney Pickersgill: There are, of course, none in the province of Newfoundland?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: No, Mr. Chairman, the situation in Newfoundland is quite distinct. As the hon. member knows, I would imagine, under the terms of confederation there is no differentiation between the various residents of the province of Newfoundland. The Indians and Eskimos are completely integrated into the population.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I do not want to lead the minister down the garden path. The minister, I think, knows there is no differentiation between the Eskimo and other people of Canada, but only between the Indians and the other people of Canada. The only people who have any special status in any part of Canada are the Indians. It is not because of any special status that anything is being done for the Eskimos, it is because of their remoteness. Most of them, I suppose, before confederation was completed in 1949, lived in the Northwest Territories, not in the provinces. There was no appreciable number of Eskimos in the provinces except in northern Manitoba and Quebec. It may well be that with the entry of Newfoundland into confederation, the majority of the Eskimos, or a considerable proportion of them, are now in the provinces.
I noticed the undertaking the minister gave to my colleague from Grand Falls-White Bay-Labrador the other day. It does seem to me that there should be equal treatment for the Eskimos in all parts of Canada. It is true that, with respect to the Indians, when confederation was completed in 1949 it was decided not to bring the Indians of Newfoundland under the Indian Act. I think that was a wise decision. Perhaps a mistake was made at that time, which I hope is going to be repaired in time, in that notwithstanding the fact these Indians were not going to come under the Indian Act, they were not, as they should be, treated just as well by the federal government as are other Indians in other parts of Canada. However, I know that is not the minister's responsibility.


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: I should like to add a few words on this problem, Mr. Chairman. In 1955, I believe, the present minister was a member of the special committee on estimates. It is reported that when we came to the question of education of the Eskimos, Mr. Lesage, the then minister of northern affairs, told the committee he had been in touch with the representatives of both the churches concerned in Canada. Does the minister not feel it would be wise to consult with these authorities before making any plans to educate these Eskimos, and to consult with the Roman Catholic and Anglican churches as Mr. Lesage did in 1955?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I am informed that the closest possible consultation continues between the department of northern affairs and the bishops of the respective Anglican and Roman Catholic churches.


John Whitney Pickersgill: There is just one question I should like to ask the minister. Could he say what government was in office in Quebec when these Eskimo schools were established there?


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Lesage was minister at the time.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I am just trying to discover the date when these schools were opened. It was 1949.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I can answer the question for the minister. If the schools were established in 1949, Mr. Lesage was not a member of the government of Canada. However, Mr. Maurice Duplessis was the premier of Quebec, and that great champion of provincial autonomy permitted the federal government to establish these schools in the province of Quebec. It does seem to me that little bit of history ought to be put on the record.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I know the minister said that the schools in the north are federal schools. He also gave the impression that, in essence, these denominational schools, as he called them I think, in Quebec, were sectarian schools. What I want to know is this. As the educational system develops and as we get into the ambitions of the department as expressed in the annual report to give these Indian children more extensive education at a higher level, for example, as to these technical schools and trade institutes, are they going to continue within the sectarian framework or are they going to be more like, let us say, the schools to which we are accustomed in Manitoba or Ontario?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I think I should point out that the school situation in the north is rather the result of a historical development. The church missionaries were pioneers in the

north. Both the Roman Catholic church and the Anglican church missionaries were the first to bring education to our northern Canadians. They had established certain priorities in this regard. When the decision was made to provide adequate education for all the young people of Canada's northland, the outstanding contribution of the churches in the north had to be taken into consideration. That is the reason for the denominational criterion with respect to the hiring of teachers.
So far as the vocational schools are concerned, I am happy to inform members that in schools of this type catering to children of the high school level and the teen-age group, we are hoping to move them forward to a completely integrated school. This objective has already been accomplished at Yellowknife. I trust that the hon. member can travel down north on some occasion and I think he will be impressed with the educational program at the Sir John Franklin school at Yellowknife where we have a complete integrated educational program with Indians, Eskimos and white children working side by side as Canadians.


Douglas Mason Fisher: The minister may remember that one of the recommendations of the parliamentary committee on mines, forests and waters was that arrangements be made to take members of parliament on tours to see these facilities. I am afraid I am not in a position to do this on my own funds. I would have to be, in essence, a freeloader if I were going to do it.
I should like to get back to what the minister has explained and again this is a matter of curiosity. The position in relation to the schools is this. The minister says that we are carrying on historic tradition. However, in essence it is substantiating in religion a status quo. I think he would agree with that statement. I just want to put this question. With regard to education has there been any other denomination or sect interested in proselytizing or doing missionary work in the north? Have they been interested in the present school set-up or have they been critical of it?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: As I indicated just a few minutes ago, the two pioneer churches in the north have been the Anglican church and the Roman Catholic church. No other denomination has expressed any interest in educational programs in the north.


Gordon Campbell Chown: I recognize the hon. member for Scarborough.


Frank Charles McGee: I have been trying to catch your eye, Mr. Chairman, for quite some time now in order to ask the hon. member for Port
Supply-Northern Affairs Arthur, and the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate who has been monopolizing the time of the committee here this afternoon, whether they could not pep up their delivery a little bit. I noticed a group of students were falling asleep and the guard was having a difficult time keeping them awake. It was only when the minister started to make his incisive remarks that this tendency was restrained in any way.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I will endeavour to oblige the hon. member for York-Scarborough and disturb his own slumbers by reading a little bit of an extract from the May 10, 1960 issue of the Halifax Chronicle-Herald which is rapidly becoming my favourite newspaper. May 10, 1960 was 370 or rather-I am doing my arithmetic the wrong way-360 days ago. Certain events which had not come to an end were then transpiring in the province of Nova Scotia.


Robert Jardine McCleave: It was 370 days ago.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Was I right the first time?


Robert Jardine McCleave: Yes, you were right the first time. Then you made the usual unfortunate mistake of changing it.


John Whitney Pickersgill: As a matter of fact, I will leave the arithmetic to the senior member for Halifax or the taller member for Halifax who really does not have much else to keep him occupied since the divorce committee ceased its operations.


Robert Jardine McCleave: I am keeping you honest; and that is quite a job.


John Whitney Pickersgill: This item is headed:
"Nowlan Promises Big Power-Net Spending." It is under dateline of Annapolis Royal and it reads as follows:
National Revenue Minister George Nowlan said here Monday night that the federal government planned to spend a large amount this year on the development of power between Nova Scotia and New Brunswick.
Mr. Nowlan was one-
There is a good deal about where he was speaking and so on. I will spare the minister any embarrassment by failing to identify that. Mr. Nowlan went on to speak about many things that have happened or which he asserted had happened down there and then he went on to say this:
This year, ... it was proposed to spend a large amount on the power pooling project. This would reduce the cost of thermo-power development to less than seven cents per kilowatt.
When we get to the appropriate item

and I am just serving notice on the minister now so that his officials will have a chance to be prepared-I think the committee would be interested in a full report of what has happened in the years since this statement was

Supply-Northern Affairs made and particularly the extent to which the cost of power has been reduced.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Before this item passes I should like to expand the reply I made to the hon. member for Port Arthur and indicate that the information I gave applied to the Northwest Territories. The Yukon Territory again is another situation. So far as the Indian population is concerned in the Yukon Territory, the hon. member for the Yukon informs me that the Baptist denomination has been very active there.


Gordon Campbell Chown: Shall item 279 carry?


John Richard Garland: I should like to ask the minister a question in order to get an explanation. If I heard him correctly, on two occasions, I think-once since lunch and once before lunch-he indicated that the advertising contracted for by the government and paid for by the government, in respect to that 15 per cent slice off the top to the agency was at no cost to the government. How does he support an argument of that kind, where it is contracted for by the government and paid by the government?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I am informed that this is normal procedure in advertising agencies. Businesses of all kinds and government departments, rather than involve their own personnel in placing these advertisements seek the services of qualified representatives or agencies which have experience in the field. They find that a much more efficient operation can be carried out. The amount of business that is handled by these agencies is in various sums which do not involve any profit so far as the company or the organization or the government placing the advertisement are concerned. They merely indicate that these advertisements are to be placed. The firm or the agency concerned does all the necessary work and the percentage is added to the cost of the medium involved in the advertising. The medium pays a 15 per cent service charge.


John Richard Garland: I am well aware of the mechanics of it but surely the minister is not suggesting that this can be done at no cost to the advertiser. Surely this is a built-in part of the rate which a particular medium might be charging. To suggest that a 15 per cent slice off the top is not paid in the end by the government is, I think, unrealistic.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: If the hon. member would consult any reputable advertising agency he would find that this is the practice.


John Whitney Pickersgill: The money comes out of the treasury just the same.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: No. If the government or a company were to place their advertisements directly with the various media it would cost them precisely the same as it would to use the services of an advertising agency.


John Richard Garland: It is a thin argument, when these lush contracts are passed out to the political friends of the minister, to say that it is done at no cost to the federal treasury.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I think the only way to put this point across would be to ask the hon. member to approach any advertising agency. I think it would inform him that it is the publicity medium which pays the 15 per cent.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I am not sure whether the minister qualified one statement which he made-a statement which devastated me- to the effect that only two churches had shown any interest in education in the north, namely the Roman Catholic church and the Anglican church. The Presbyterian church has always prided itself on its interest in education, and to be left in outer darkness is a shattering experience. I wonder if the minister could qualify his statement.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: The Presbyterian church has, of course, been a pioneer in the field of education for many years, even for centuries, but as far as the Northwest Territories are concerned the only two denominations which have been active are the Anglican church and the Roman Catholic church. In the Yukon Territory, going back to the days of the gold rush, I imagine, representatives of the Baptist church have been active among the Indian population. We have two problems in this regard, responsibility for Indian education and responsibility for Eskimo education. I am referring to the Eskimo population. As far as I know there has been no direct participation by the Presbyterian church but I would, of course, agree, that indirectly through various voluntary groups which are now working in northern Canada-the Cana-dian-Eskimo-Indian committee for example which brings together representatives from the women's institutes and various other groups in Canada-there is a genuine interest being shown in all problems with respect to the human resources in our north.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Perhaps I can throw a little light on this question. While what the minister has said is correct, referring to the Northwest Territories as "the north" is using the word "north" in a restricted sense. I was the superintendent general of Indian affairs for three years. I think many people regard northern Ontario and the northern part of the provinces as being the north, as well as the Northwest Territories, and in both those areas the Presbyterian church and the United

Church of Canada have been very active and they have a considerable number of schools there, as well as the Anglican church and the Catholic church.


John Richard Garland: Last year officials of the department visited the United Kingdom and western Europe in an attempt to assess the tourist potential there in the light of the growing economic strength of those countries. Would the minister now comment on the result of this examination and tell us what is being done to encourage tourist traffic from western Europe?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Yes. I am glad the hon. member for Nipissing asked this question, because we are pleased with the results of that visit. It was a fact finding trip and I have had reports on the results.
The various Canadian transportation companies have been active in Europe for several years, now-the railways and T.C.A.-and it was found that they are doing an outstanding job in representing Canada. However, strong recommendations were made as a result of the trip that there should be some direct representation of the Canadian government travel bureau in the United Kingdom to serve that market as well as the European market generally.
This whole matter is under very active consideration. We are hoping that at the next tourist convention sponsored by the Canadian government tourist bureau the guest speaker will be one of the leading figures from the tourist industry in the United Kingdom. It is apparent that the best market for increased travel to Canada exists in the United Kingdom, West Germany, the Netherlands, France and Switzerland, to give some specific information which has been brought to my attention as a result of the visit. In all those countries the standard of living has risen remarkably. Foreign exchange restrictions have been lessened or eliminated, and the economies are buoyant. The best possibility for an immediate increase in tourist traffic to Canada is in the United Kingdom. All in all, we can conclude that the tour was successful. The information derived will provide the basis of constructive activity along these lines.


John Richard Garland: I have understood the minister correctly, the government, as a result of this trip or survey last year, has not taken any specific action.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: There is nothing before parliament at the present time but we are optimistic that we shall have something to present to the house next year.


Richard Russell Southam: I should like to associate myself with other hon. members, on behalf
Supply-Northern Affairs of my constituents, and myself, in congratulating the minister upon his appointment to his new office as the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources. The constituency of Moose Mountain is, of course, in close proximity to that of Brandon-Souris, and this is another reason for wishing the hon. gentleman well in his new post.
Before this item passes I should like to ask the minister a question, and my question is this. Last year I made a discourse in this chamber at some length on the circumstances as far as national parks are concerned. I pointed out that the great central province of Saskatchewan has only one national park whereas some of the neighbouring provinces such as Alberta, and British Columbia have four each. I also pointed out that while the national park of Waskesiu in the northern part of our province is a very fine one it is far distant from the main centres of population. I am wondering whether the department has given any consideration to the expansion of its national park program in the province from which I come.
I should like to direct the minister's attention to another question and it has to do with the possibility of designating Can-nington manor as a historic site. This is a building of an unusual and distinctive type which was put up, I think, in the eighteenth century by English people who established there what might be called a piece of old England. It is equipped with stables, a race track and other adjuncts to elegant English country life; for instance, the sport of hunting was practised around the manor and continued for some time. I thought I should like to bring this matter to the attention of the minister and to ask whether his officials could not consider the possibility of establishing this building as a historic site.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I am aware of both the issues referred to by my neighbour across the border in Saskatchewan, and I know of his continuing interest in these matters.
With reference to national parks, I can assure hon. members that the department is always happy to consider suggestions for the expansion of our national parks system. However, one of the basic problems in this regard is that any area to be considered as a national park must be made available by provincial authorities, free of encumbrances. This information is perhaps pertinent to some of the comments made by hon. members from the maritimes. Various suggestions are put forward from time to time regarding areas which might be suitable for national parks, but my department can take no action until the provincial government has first indicated it is willing to turn over the lands for national

Supply-Northern Affairs park purposes. On that basis we are happy to hear representations at any time.
In regard to the Cannington manor, which is a replica of an old English estate in the heart of the prairies going back to the early days of settlement, again this would have to be cleared by the historic sites and monuments board, to determine whether it meets the necessary criteria enabling it to be established as a national historic site. If hon. members can persuade that board in this regard we will be agreeable to taking the necessary steps.


Alexis Pierre Caron: Mr. Chairman, a few moments ago the minister referred to an overseas delegation in regard to Canada's tourist industry. In this field we have received quite a number of publications originating with this department. I wonder whether the minister could tell me how many of these tourist industry pamphlets are printed in French only, how many in English only, and how many in both French and English?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Mr. Chairman, I am informed that up to the present date the activities of the Canadian government travel bureau have been restricted almost to the United States market except for that delegation which was sent to Europe last year. Our operations have been carried out through the offices in New Fork and Chicago. This year, as the hon. member knows, we are going to open a tourist bureau on the west coast of the United States at San Francisco.
Because of this situation, the only demand for tourist publications is received from English speaking areas and pamphlets are designed entirely to serve that market. Of course, when we actively seek to attract European tourists, and if and when we establish a travel bureau in Europe, we will have to consider the problem of cultivating tourists from France and other parts of the continent by the use of multi-language pamphlets and programs.


Alexis Pierre Caron: Does the minister not think that in order to attract Belgians, French, Swiss and perhaps individuals from West Germany, it should be much more effective if our publications were printed in French? I can furnish the minister with a number of bilingual publications, and I suggest our own publications could be printed in both English and French without the loss of any advantage, and without an increase in volume of paper. Perhaps the pamphlets I have would be of assistance to the minister in his consideration regarding the printing of this type of publication in both languages.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Mr. Chairman, as I have indicated, when we begin to work directly with


a view to acquiring tourists from Europe we will be faced with the necessity of having bilingual publications, or perhaps trilingual publications. We will be then attempting to cultivate this market in Europe and will have to do so by using the different languages, but up until the present time our operation has been restricted exclusively to the United States market.


Alexis Pierre Caron: Does the minister intend to wait until he has an establishment in Europe before making these publications bilingual? I would suggest there is another consideration involved, and that is, if these publications were printed in French and English the people around the world would realize that Canada is in fact a bilingual country. These people might otherwise think, when they see our publications, that bilingualism in Canada exists only in text books and nowhere else.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Mr. Chairman, this branch operates on a limited budget, and the main interest has been to stimulate the tourist industry in the United States. Many developments are taking place in regard to our tourist promotional program, and I would suggest that as we approach Canada's centennial we will have to considerably broaden the scope of our activity in order to ensure that the true nature of Canada is presented, and our bicultural and bilingual aspects will have to be conveyed to the potential touring public, particularly from Europe. I do not know whether there would be any particular advantage in presenting the bilingual aspect to the United States tourists, but that is something I shall have to consider further.


Alexis Pierre Caron: I would suggest that the advantage involved here would be that of presenting a true picture of Canada to these people from outside, so that they should know there are a number of French speaking Canadians in this country. Regarding the limited budget, to which the minister referred, I should suggest that one of the pamphlets I have in my office contains only one page of pictures and could have been printed in French as well as in English with the addition of one sheet, and the inclusion of French captions under the pictures appearing on that page, with very little cost because of the very small increase in the amount of paper and practically no increase in the amount of ink. This could have been done at no extra cost if someone had only thought about it.
(Translation):


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: I would like to put a supplementary question to the minister.
At the time Mr. Lesage was heading the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources, were the Canadian government

travel bureau publications issued in both English and French, even when intended tor the United States? To follow up the question put by the hon. member for Hull, was the literature issued at that time in the United States by the Canadian government travel bureau bilingual or unilingual?
(Text):


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Mr. Chairman, these publications have always been printed in one language.
(Translation):


Alexis Pierre Caron: The question just raised is a purely political one and can hardly improve the situation. I would therefore point out to the hon. member for Joliette-L'Assomption-Montcalm (Mr. Pigeon) that even if mistakes were made in the past, that is no justification for future governments repeating the same mistakes. On the other hand, if the question raised by the hon. member was merely intended to compare past activities to present activities, he was wrong. We want improvements for the future, even if we have to get them through the present government.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: I do not object to what the hon. member for Hull has just said. On the contrary, I favour his suggestion. I feel sure the minister and the officials of his department will consider the question and try to see that Canada be known throughout the world as a bi-ethnic country.


Alexis Pierre Caron: Then, how does Mr. Lesage come into the picture?


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Lesage has been derelict in his duty.


Alexis Pierre Caron: I am prepared to admit that. (Text):


Jacques Flynn: Order. Shall vote 279 carry?


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
281.	Contributions to the provinces, pursuant to agreements entered into with the approval of the governor in council, by Canada with the provinces, of amounts equal to one half of the amounts confirmed by the provinces as having been spent by them for campground and picnic area developments, $1,700,000.
(Translation):
Jean-Paul Deschatelets: I understand that item 281 deals with contributions to the provinces on a 50 per cent basis for campground and picnic area developments.
Mr. Chairman, in the last elections, several of our Conservative friends from Quebec denounced all these joint programs as being interference with the autonomy of the provinces. Just recently, the leader of the opposition in Quebec also denounced those
Supply-Northern Affairs programs. So that our Conservative friends from Quebec may clearly indicate whether or not they agree with the policy of the Union Nationale, I see no better way than to call for a vote on the item when the hon. members have completed their remarks. I therefore ask that a vote be taken.
(Text):


Azellus Denis: I should like to ask the minister a question on this item of $1,700,000. If I understand aright, this has to do with a joint agreement between the dominion government and the provinces. I think the federal government pays one half of the amount of the contribution. Since the inception of this scheme, how much money has been spent by this government and what provinces have entered the joint agreement, including the province of Quebec?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Mr. Chairman, this program has been operating since 1958. I believe the hon. member has asked for the total spent since that time. As illustrated in tabular form, up to the end of 1960 the totals were as follows:
Province	Amount
British Columbia	 $ 1,028,468.11
Alberta	 588,830.17
Saskatchewan	 443,319.14
Manitoba	 373,200.96
Ontario	 2,074,849.57
New Brunswick	 115,378.07
Nova Scotia	 60,402.95
Prince Edward Island	 2,120.00
Newfoundland	 54,345.77


Azellus Denis: What about Quebec?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Quebec did not enter the program until the current year. There has been an expenditure on the winter works program of $9,915. There has been no expenditure under the trans-Canada highway program.
Item agreed to: Yeas, 53; nays, nil.
282.	Contributions to the provinces to assist in the development of roads leading to resources in accordance with agreements entered into by Canada and the provinces, $12,000,000.


Charles Ronald McKay Granger: Mr. Chairman, I should like, if I may, to ask the minister whether he would consider a road into Labrador. I have in mind the announcement which he made in the house on Wednesday, part of which said in effect that where there are two companies operating in the northland the federal government would build a road to that area and pay 100 per cent of the cost. I should like to call his attention to the fact that in Carol lake and lake Wabush, which is one area in Labrador, there are two big mining developments. I would be very happy indeed if the minister would tell us that he is going to build a road from, say, the north shore

Supply-Northern Affairs of the St. Lawrence into that area, or from Goose Bay into that area, which would make me happier still.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Mr. Chairman, the roads to resources program applies, of course, only to the provinces. The announcement I made the other day concerned our access road program in the territories where the federal government has exclusive responsibility. Under the roads to resources program we accept recommendations from the provincial governments and these recommendations are processed for the necessary criteria pertaining to roads to resources. We are happy to entertain any recommendation by the provincial governments.


Azellus Denis: Mr. Chairman, at the end of the discussion of this item I should like you to call the yeas and nays because this important item relates to a large amount of money, namely $12 million.
I should like to know first from the minister how much money has been spent by the government under this kind of subvention to the provinces? I should like to have a breakdown of the amount by provinces up to the present time.
The minister knows that since the inception of this agreement the province of Quebec has always refused to enter into an agreement with the federal government because the premier of the province held that it was an encroachment on provincial autonomy. I know that all the Conservative members from Quebec and even the Conservative ministers from that province campaigned in the provincial elections on behalf of Maurice Duples-sis who always objected to these agreements. I should like to know how they could tell the people of Quebec that this was an encroachment on the autonomy of that province and then come into this house and say they were in favour of this encroachment on the autonomy of the province of Quebec. If they do not want this item to pass because it is an encroachment on the autonomy of Quebec, I wonder why they would vote for it? If they do not approve of the previous governments of the province of Quebec they should say so.
Every time we come to items of this kind we never hear from these Conservative members from the province of Quebec. They are very brave when they are talking to a Conservative meeting in the province of Quebec. I even heard the hon. member for Chapleau say over the radio that under this administration millions of dollars had been given through him for the development of access roads. Nevertheless, when a meeting is held by Mr. Talbot of the Union Nationale the hon. member is beside Mr. Talbot and denouncing agreements of this kind. I should like to know whether their stand is "Yes" here and "No"
in Quebec or vice versa. On what side of the fence do they stand? At the end of the discussion of this item I should like the yeas and nays to be called. I would ask the minister to give us the amounts of money by provinces spent under this program.


Jean-Jacques Martel: Mr. Chairman, I should like to say a few words because the hon. member for St. Denis mentioned the fact that in a radio broadcast recently I said that large amounts of money had been spent and most of it, I am glad to say, in the north in the riding of Chapleau on the roads to resources program which is under discussion now. He implied that members of the Conservative party campaigned for the provincial party in the last election. I wish to say that we are discussing federal matters here. As far as I am concerned, I have said that these amounts are being spent and there is no question in my mind that they will help in the development of the north country. I do not think we should mix provincial matters with federal matters and I will be glad to vote in favour of this item.
(Translation):


Azellus Denis: Mr. Chairman, with reference to the remarks of the hon. member for Chapleau (Mr. Martel), I must say that the province of Quebec must necessarily be included in this discussion, since the expenditures involved in this item could not be made unless the province of Quebec agrees to share half the cost. A matter of principle is involved. Therefore, if you say that this constitutes an infringement upon autonomy and if, at your meetings in the province of Quebec, you denounce this item, I wonder why you vote in favour of it in this house. Either you change your mind, or-


Jean-Jacques Martel: We are not here to discuss provincial politics.


Azellus Denis: There is not one law for one's friends and another for one's foes.
I am unable to understand, Mr. Chairman, how these people can boast to their constituents that they are the protectors of autonomy.
(Text):


Gordon Campbell Chown: Order. If the hon. member for Chapleau had presented his case in the form of a point of order I would be inclined to agree that the debate on this item has strayed from the point which is the subject of inquiry from the minister and I would have to ask the hon. member for St. Denis to restrict his references to another arena which has no jurisdiction as far as this expenditure is concerned.


Azellus Denis: May I have the breakdown I requested?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Yes. Would the hon. member be satisfied with round figures?


Azellus Denis: Yes.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: These figures are up until the end of 1960: British Columbia, $2,200,000; Alberta, $2,300,000; Saskatchewan, $2,600,000; Manitoba, $1,700,000; Ontario, $1,300,000; Quebec, nil; New Brunswick, $1,200,000; Nova Scotia, almost $3 million; Prince Edward Island, $1,700,000, and Newfoundland almost $516,000.
(Translation):


Azellus Denis: Mr. Chairman, I find that the Quebec Tories cost the province a lot of money.


J.-H.-Théogène Ricard: That might be a lesson for Mr. Lesage, who was against those subsidies but finally accepted them.
(Text):


Azellus Denis: May I say we were never opposed to these agreements. Premier Lesage hoped for the disappearance of these joint agreements little by little but would not refuse our share while they existed.
(Translation):
We shall accept all that the federal government gives the provinces. We shall have our share in the amounts of money distributed throughout the country. The hon. member for St. Hyacinthe-Bagot (Mr. Ricard) has paid his taxes; well he is entitled to his share of the amounts being spent under this item. Surely, he did not fail to notice the millions that were spent to the benefit of other provinces while the province of Quebec lagged behind during the time when the Union Nationale ruled the destinies of the province.


Jean-Jacques Martel: Your attitude shows you to favour centralization of power.


Azellus Denis: Just vote against this item if it is contrary to your principles.
(Text):


Hédard-J. Robichaud: Could the minister give the committee a list of the projects approved under this program in the current year for the province of New Brunswick?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: It is quite a long list, and I am happy to give it to the hon. member. The roads are as follows: the Juniper-Napadogan road, the Plaster Rock-Renous road, the Doaktown-Chipman road, the Blue River road, the Maces Bay road, the Saint John-Mispec road, the north central New Brunswick resources roads, the Boiestown or Doaktown to Plaster Rock road, the Kingston peninsula loop, the Bayfield-Mates Corner road, the Grand Lake road, the Salmon river bridge, the cape Bald loop, the Shediac bay loop, the Buctouche bay loop, the Richibucto loop
Supply[DOT]-Northern Affairs and the St. Croix river road. These are the projects that have been approved.


Hédard-J. Robichaud: Has the minister received a request covering a road to Miscou island, including a bridge linking Shippigan island and Miscou, and what action has been taken on this project?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I understand there have been requests for two additional road projects including the one mentioned by the hon. member, the other being a mining development road into the Heath Steel Company development. These two are under consideration at the moment.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Could I ask the minister whether he was right in giving the figure for Nova Scotia which seemed almost astronomical compared with the other provinces? I think all the other provinces were under $2 million and Nova Scotia was over $3 million. I just wondered whether the figure he gave was correct and, if so, where these roads are.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I now have a more up-to-date report. The first report was to the end of December, 1960, and the one I have in my hands now is to the end of January, 1961. The figure given for Nova Scotia is $3,032,000.


John Whitney Pickersgill: That is higher than any other province.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: No, Alberta is higher with $3,200,000. Those are the two highest provinces.


John Whitney Pickersgill: But it is higher than Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario or British Columbia?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: 
John Whitney Pickersgill: I wonder whether the minister can tell me about a road in which I am particularly interested, that from Gypsum-ville to Grand Rapids? Has that road been finished and is it intended to continue it farther north to Thompson?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I believe the hon. member is referring to Manitoba again and discussing the Manitoba roads to resources program.


John Whitney Pickersgill: That is the item under discussion.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: The road from Gypsumville, I understand, was officially opened at Christmas. I understand that it represents the longest piece of road developed in the shortest space of time in Canadian history. It is now

Supply-Northern Affairs proceeding to Thompson and when it gets to Thompson we will be only 200 miles from the port of Churchill.


William Arnold Peters: I believe in the original agreement with the province of Ontario in connection with the roads to resources program there were eight projects listed at a total cost of $8,360,000. Would the minister tell us how many of those roads have been completed under this program and the cost?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I have that information. The Savant lake south road: there has been no activity on this road to date. The Foyelet to Chapleau road: 23 miles have been cleared. The Minaki south road: 15 miles have been cleared out of a total of 15 miles. The Nakina northerly road, a total distance of 50 miles: I have not got the report of the work completed, but there has been a total of $429,268 paid out on that project. Goldpines to Uchi lake; there has been no activity on that project. Port Arthur north, a total distance of 70 miles: 28 miles have been cleared.


William Arnold Peters: What has happened in connection with the Campbell mine to Red lake road and No. 8 northern service? This was a very short road of about two miles.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: According to my records here, Mr. Chairman, the Campbell to Red lake road is not part of the roads to resources agreement. I believe the hon. member is referring to the road that was discussed by the hon. member for Port Arthur last night. This road is described in the agreement between the federal government and the government of Ontario, the form of road to be agreed upon after completion of photographic and magnetometer surveys. In addition, some geological reconnaissance will be carried out. I am happy to inform the hon. member that the major portion of the preliminary work has been completed. All the aeromagnetic work is completed and maps have been published. About 60 per cent of the ground geological work has been completed, and the balance will be done this year. It is expected that a detailed road location can commence later during the current year, and it is hoped the actual construction will commence in 1962.


William Arnold Peters: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Can the minister tell us if there are any negotiations currently under way to extend other roads in other areas not included in the roads to resources program? In other words, are there negotiations taking place between the provincial and federal governments to extend these roads into other areas beyond those initially projected in the province of Ontario? I am thinking, for instance, of a road from Gowganda to either the Chapleau

or Sudbury area. Another road that has been mentioned on a number of occasions is a road north from Cochrane to Moosonee and also one north from Kapuskasing to serve the area north of Kapuskasing.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Mr. Chairman, the roads I have outlined are the complete projects under the present agreement. There are no further negotiations taking place at the present time.


Joseph-Alphonse-Anaclet Habel: I wish to follow the hon. member for Timiskaming because he referred to certain roads in my riding. I do not believe the population of Cochrane are so anxious to know about new roads from Timmins to Kapuskasing or Kapuskasing to Moosonee. They are anxious to learn about a road that would connect the northwestern part of Quebec with the northeastern part of Ontario. I wonder if the minister could tell me if there are any suggestions from the provincial governments concerning the possibility of opening up that area, 52 miles in length, between northwestern Quebec and La Reine and Cochrane. This would be the road in which the population of that district would be interested. They want this road as a tourist road, as a road to resources and also as a necessary road in case of attack on this country.
After all, the northern part of the province is quite a distance from Toronto and some 300 miles north of North Bay. The only real outlet we would have in case of attack would be to the west to Port Arthur and Fort William or east into Quebec province. This road would be a most important one to the population of my riding, and the one in which they would be most interested.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I can inform the hon. member that we have received no representations concerning this road.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I am very interested in this item because I am interested in these roads to resources. I might say that I have been interested in some hot springs for 50 years, the Nakusp hot springs which are nine miles northeast of Nakusp. I have been a commissioner of the park committee that has been formed since 1925, but we have no road to these hot springs. They are equal to radium springs. About 70,000 gallons of water come out of the ground every 24 hours at a temperature of about 134. We have two others very similar within a distance of 40 miles. There are magnificent opportunities for bathing and the establishment of a resort. Over 35 miles of the finest brook trout fishing in Canada, as well as magnificent scenery, can be found there.

For years, the people have either walked or rode a horse over the nine mile trail to these springs. Prior to the second world war there would be anywhere from 600 to 800 people visiting these springs annually, enjoying the baths, the fishing and the scenery. People seem to have gotten out of the habit of riding and walking since the second world war, so the numbers that come now are very reduced. We have been very interested in getting a road built over the nine miles required to service these magnificent hot springs.
I want to ask the minister three questions. I have tried to explain briefly the type of natural resource this is. Does the government contribute to the construction of roads to this type of natural resource if a province makes application? Has the government of British Columbia made application for assistance in building a road to these hot springs? Can the minister go through the list of projects that have been undertaken in British Columbia?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: In response to the first question may I say this. The federal government accepts recommendations from the provincial government for resource roads. The answer to the second question is this. The provincial government made no representations concerning the road referred to. As a matter of fact, I think the only road project in the province of British Columbia in the roads to resources program is the Stewart-Cassiar road. They have put the whole amount of money available into one project.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I want to thank the minister for that information. It will brew a good storm in the Kootenays.


Jean-Jacques Martel: I wish to add a few words to those of the hon. member for Cochrane with regard to the road suggested for northern Ontario to connect northeastern Ontario with northwestern Quebec. Some work has been done in that respect by-and the hon. member may correct me if I am wrong-the northern Ontario development association. There have been meetings with the Abitibi chamber of commerce and also the chamber of commerce of La Sarre. Our people in Quebec are also greatly interested in that road. I believe as well that some work has been done for that purpose, namely to build that road. Of course the suggestion will have to come from the Ontario government because on the Quebec side the road goes to the border. It all depends on what road will be chosen. However, it will be only a matter of few miles, possibly five miles at the most, depending on where this road will go.
I think it would be well for the minister if he would inquire whether his department
Supply-Northern Affairs has received representations from the northern Ontario development association in that respect with regard to this project about which we have been talking in our district for over 30 years, I would say. I think it is a worth-while project that would come under the roads to resources program of northeastern Ontario. Of course it all depends on the Ontario government.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I have had no direct representations and my officials tell me neither have they. As the hon. member suggests, the initial approach should be made to the provincial authorities.


@Acting Chair(man)? of Committees of the Whole: Is the committee ready for the division on vote 282?


William Arnold Peters: Before the division is taken, may I ask the minister what has been the final arrangement made by his department with the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys in relation to the magnetometer survey that was carried out in the case to which reference was made? I have not the final correspondence; it goes only up to a certain date. At that time negotiations were being undertaken with the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys, I believe, to conduct an air survey under this department. Was that how it was conducted?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Yes. This survey is done by the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys on our behalf.


@Acting Chair(man)? of Committees of the Whole: Is the committee ready for the division?


Some hon. Members:: Question.
Item agreed to: Yeas, 56; nays, nil.
National parks branch-
283.	Branch administration, $268,584.


Gordon Campbell Chown: Shall
vote 283 carry?


Some hon. Members:: Five o'clock.


@Acting Chair(man)? of Committees of the Whole: Shall vote 283 carry?


John Whitney Pickersgill: No, Mr. Chairman; I think perhaps we ought to call it five o'clock.


An hon. Member:: No; there are still two or three minutes.


John Whitney Pickersgill: All right. I have plenty of material. Perhaps the minister would like to take time first, if this is the appropriate item under which to do it, to complete his answer about Fort Rodd, if he is ready to answer on that subject. If not, I could go on. Perhaps it would be useful for the minister to have this knowledge so that, when we come back to the estimates, he may be prepared. When he comes back to the estimates I should like the minister to tell us

Indian Act
for what reason a man named Doucette of Rustico, Prince Edward Island, was laid off from the national park there, who was taken on in his place, and any other attendant details he can give about this transaction which I believe is rather notorious in the community,
I also have a question here about another matter. It is really a supplementary question to one which was asked the other day by the hon. member for Northumberland-Mira-michi who is unable to be here this afternoon and who wanted me to raise the matter further. The minister will recall that it was question No. 228 which he answered on March 29, with respect to the laying off of a crew and its replacement by another crew of persons in Cape Breton Highlands national park. The minister stated that an interim reply to some inquiries he had made had been sent on March 18 and that he had asked for further information on the matter in order to determine that the rotational policy had been equitably followed. If the minister, when we come together again, could give us that further information it would be helpful.


Some hon. Members:: Five o'clock.


Gordon Campbell Chown: It
being five o'clock and in order to permit the house to proceed to the consideration of public and private bills, pursuant to section 3 of standing order 15, it is my duty to rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again later this day, or at the next sitting of the house, as the case may be.
Resolutions adopted in committee of supply this day, reported and concurred in.


Mr. Speaker:: It being five o'clock the house will now proceed to the consideration of public and private bills the former having precedence, pursuant to section 3 of standing order 15 as provisionally amended.



INDIAN ACT


[Stage Direction]
On the order:
Second reading of Bill C-24, an act to amend the Indian Act (Section 112 repealed).-Mr. Howard.
Frank Howard: I wonder whether this order might stand.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I should like to raise a point of order with respect to this bill which has been on the order paper since November 21, 1960, If these bills are allowed to stand on the order paper they interfere with the possibility of other hon. members proceeding with their bills. It seems to me the hon. gentleman should either proceed or allow

the bill to go to the bottom of the list, if indeed it would be possible, in view of the action already taken by this house this session, for the hon. member to proceed with this particular bill.


Mr. Speaker:: Under the rules the hon. member has the option of proceeding or having the bill dropped unless it is requested by the government that the bill stand.


Ernest James Broome: On the point of order raised by the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillin-gate the intent of this bill has, I believe, already been dealt with by the house. I think it should be withdrawn.


Frank Howard: I have requested that it be allowed to stand, but if that is not the desire of the government-and I should like to know that first-


Mr. Speaker:: I have heard no request from the government that it should stand.


Frank Howard: On the point of order which has been raised-and I am speaking now about our procedure, not about the bill itself-may I suggest that the observations made were based on a statement made by the Minister of National Revenue on April 21. I believe he was then acting leader of the house. The hon. gentleman dealt with this question on that occasion and at page 3908 of Hansard he is reported as saying:
I admit there may be an occasion-such as that when an hon. member is sick, is unavoidably prevented from coming to this House of Commons, is away in his own constituency or is on other business-when some consideration might be given to that particular case.
Well, I am sick, Mr. Speaker. I am sick of this government trying to interfere in the affiairs of private members.


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member for Skeena is taking advantage of the Chair by raising that as a point of order. The rule requires the hon. member either to proceed or to drop this bill.


Frank Howard: Well, in that case, with consent, I should like to move that order No. 1 be discharged and the bill withdrawn.


Mr. Speaker:: Does the house give the hon. member leave to withdraw his bill?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
Order discharged and bill withdrawn.



CANADA FAIR EMPLOYMENT PRACTICES ACT


Frank Howard: the second reading of Bill No. C-25, to amend the Canada Fair Employment Practices Act (age discrimination).

He said: My remarks in connection with this particular bill will be brief. The Fair Employment Practices Act has been on the statute books for some years. It prohibits discrimination with regard to the employment of employees, among other things in so far as membership in trade unions is concerned. The act provides that discrimination shall not be practised on the basis of race, national origin, colour or religion.
What this bill seems to do is to add the further provision that discrimination shall not be practised because of the age of the prospective employee or of the employee unless age is considered to be a bona fide occupational factor. The bill seeks to deal at the present time with the question of membership in unions and the proposed amendment would merely add another provision in respect to age unless, as I say, that is a bona fide occupational factor. There are, in addition, those other matters such as race, national origin, colour and religion with which the act is already concerned.
I think we are all aware that discrimination has existed and exists right now among employers with regard to the age of individuals employed. We have all heard cases where a person of 40 years of age, or 45 or 50-the age varies with the industry and the circumstances-has been unable to gain employment because he is considered to be too old. In some instances the reason is given that an older person becomes less efficient and tends to slow down on the job. Another reason given, and I think it is the most prevalent, arises from the growth of pension plans in industry. A number of industries find that it is difficult to fit an older worker into a pension plan because by the time he reaches the normal retirement age in that industry he will not have put in enough service to qualify for a pension, or, in other words, the contributions to the pension fund made by himself, or on his behalf by the employer, or jointly, would not be sufficient to qualify him for a pension, or at any rate for an adequate pension.
We have advocated, of course, on other occasions and in other circumstances that a portable pension system should be instituted so as to allow a worker to take his pension plan with him when he moves from one job to another, thus enabling him to work in a number of different industries over a period of years. But that is another subject and I think it would not be proper except in a general way to debate that during the discussion of this particular bill.
Unfortunately these pension barriers, along with other factors, deprive people of the right to gainful employment, for no real valid, sensible or sound reason. This bill 90205-6-280
Fair Employment Practices Act seeks to overcome that particular situation. There are a number of other places in the world where such anti-discrimination laws exist but I do not think it is necessary for me to list the states which have this legislation on their statute books or to recount the experiences they have had in those places. Nevertheless, the material is on the files and the experience of anti-discrimination legislation may be consulted.
In support of my statement that discrimination does exist and of my contention that changes should be made I should like to qoute from the remarks of the Minister of Labour (Mr. Starr 1 as contained in a booklet published in 1960 by the Queen's printer entitled "Speaking Out about the Older Worker Problem". This is a publication containing some 26 pages. It deals extensively with the problem of the older workers from a variety of viewpoints. Within its pages, as I said, is a statement by the Minister of Labour, who has this to say as reported on pages 7 and 8 of the booklet:
Justice, and freedom of opportunity to every individual, as spelled out by the United Nations, was adopted by 58 countries, including Canada, in the universal declaration of human rights, in December 1948. Is it justice and freedom of opportunity to raise obstacles to employment against any segment of society, for any reason, including age? Should not all individuals have an equal right to jobs which they are capable of doing whether they are 20 or 70 years of age?
The second paragraph I wish to read from page 8 is as follows:
In the Department of Labour and the national employment service we contend that applicants for jobs should be hired on the basis of character, ability and qualifications needed for the particular job, and that age should not be a factor. It is because many persons in their forties or fifties are turned down for jobs simply because of age- even though fully qualified-that we have the social and economic problem of the older worker.
Mr. Speaker, these words of the Minister of Labour add weight, if that is necessary, to the reasons why this particular bill should be endorsed by all hon. members and placed on the statute books of our country.


Frank Charles McGee: Mr. Speaker, I wonder whether the hon. member will permit a question before he resumes his seat? I appreciate that during second reading of a bill is not the appropriate time to ask for clarification of a particular clause, but perhaps if I phrase my question carefully it will be in order. I wonder whether the hon. member could expand on the principles which give rise to clause 6?


Frank Howard: Mr. Speaker, I will attempt to do so if I can avoid becoming involved in the technicalities. A union will occasionally select a name which embodies a reference to age, such as "old" or "young". Clause 6 prevents anyone from presuming that such
4438	HOUSE OF
Fair Employment Practices Act an inclusion in the name is an indication of a prejudice. This phraseology was adopted from similar types of legislation to prevent any possibility of such a thing happening.


Frank Charles McGee: Mr. Speaker, could the hon. member give us an example of the type of association he has in mind?


Frank Howard: Mr. Speaker, I do not have any association in mind. These words were taken from the phraseology used in similar legislation in other jurisdictions. Apparently individuals had been faced with this peculiar situation and adopted this method of solving the problem, so as to prevent any implication of a restriction as to age. Perhaps as an illustration I could suggest that, if a group of employees working in a home for the aged called themselves the national union of employees for the home for the aged, there would be no possibility of discrimination because of the name itself under legislation based on this bill.


Gordon Harvey Aiken: Mr. Speaker, so far as this bill serves to draw attention to the plight of the older workers it has a useful purpose. However, as in many circumstances where we are dealing with prejudice, it is very difficult to draft legislation to prevent it. I suggest that we must educate the general public as to the usefulness of older workers.
As has been mentioned on numerous occasions, there are many prejudices in Canada and elsewhere throughout the world relating to the usefulness of persons who have reached a certain age. I hope this discussion today will put forward a case for the older worker. The hon. member for Oxford (Mr. Nesbitt) on several occasions has presented this case for the older worker. He did so last year during a very forthright discussion regarding the whole problem.
There are two main problems facing the older worker. The first is an economic problem, and the second can be classed as a prejudicial problem. In many institutions employers hesitate to hire individuals who will shortly be entitled to retirement and drawing pensions, or other retirement allowances, for the obvious economic reasons. Second, even though an individual may offer to work without the benefit of a retirement plan, he would be in a very difficult position. Many older people on occasion will volunteer, because they realize that they will not be working for a very long period of time, to waive their pension rights. This proposal has never been acceptable because it would result in different treatment from different employers. This type of offer made by older workers, to get around the difficulty, has met with little success.


Regarding the problem of prejudice facing older people, I would suggest there is a feeling among employers, in regard to giving jobs to older people, that they are not as efficient as* younger people. I would suggest this is not always true. We should first consider what the prejudices are that an older worker must face. I shall attempt to list several of them which I feel are among the foremost. The first, is that when workers grow older their ability to learn decreases and therefore it is more difficult to train them in newer industrial and technological techniques. Second, a man over 40 is presumed not to be as productive as he was at 20. Third, the frequency of illness increases with age and there is more absenteeism among older workers than among younger workers. Fourth, physical deterioration is synonomous with age and therefore older people are accident prone. Finally, age has a direct bearing on insurance rates, and the cost of pension plans increases with each new participant over 40 years of age.
Those prejudices I have outlined represent the beliefs of a considerable number of employers, although it is generally accepted that these are not true statements of the facts. These beliefs are not necessarily accurate in respect of individuals 40 years and older, but are myths regarding older workers.
Mr. Speaker, I received a mimeographed letter last year, as I imagine all hon. members did, from a Mr. George D. Glassford of 132 Central Park boulevard north, Oshawa, Ontario, dated March 7, 1960. This gentleman set forth his particular problem in this letter, and I should like to read two paragraphs. They are as follows:
Business, big and small, American or Canadian controlled; governments, federal, provincial and municipal, are all tarred with the same brush.
They'll deny it emphatically-show examples where the statement is wrong-but the pitifully few examples they can show have resulted from pressure-executive, customer, or political-in each individual case. Rarely is one ever turned down because of age, as such. That would never do. The reasons are many and varied and often far fetched. I should know. I've been getting them for 15 months.
This letter was written by a man who states that he is almost 60 and was born in Canada. He had service in the first war. He goes through a long list of jobs that he has held but he says his difficulty now is his age. His letter points up the problem but I do not think it points up the answer and I do not think it necessarily points to the bill that we are discussing.
This writer says that age is never given to him as the real reason for not employing him. He says he receives these other reasons which are varied, but employers never come up with the statement that it is really his age which

is causing the difficulty. In such a situation the provisions of Bill No. C-25 would not help very much, because it would still remain possible for an employer to use the same reasons that he is using now and never mention age. To this extent I am not sure that the bill would actually accomplish the purpose the hon. member has in mind.
When I was looking up my notes on this bill in anticipation of speaking I went through a file I have of people who write to me looking for employment. I am not going to quote those letters directly but I have extracted statements from them over a period of the last two years which illustrate this particular problem. One letter says, "Everywhere I go I am told I am too old". Then, in brackets he says, " I am 56 years old". Another letter says, "At my age, 52, positions are hard to obtain". Another letter contains this sentence, "I am 57 years old and have still got six children to support, some of which are still going to school. Now, at 57 years old, I find it very hard to get work". In another letter dated July of last year I find this sentence, "Now, what am I to do at 54 years old to find a job?" These are four extracts that I took from those letters. I do not receive a great many letters asking for employment, but from that number I managed to select four letters, the writers of which definitely stated their real problem was age and nothing else.


Frank Howard: May I interrupt on a point of order. I understand that when referring to letters it is the practice to identify their source. I wonder whether the hon. member is going to do that?


Mr. Speaker:: If the hon. member was to quote from a letter the point might be taken, but as I understood the reference it was to the letters and their contents in general terms.


Frank Howard: I understood that the hon. member who has the floor was reading a letter; although I may be mistaken.


Gordon Harvey Aiken: In introducing these particular comments I said they were comments taken from correspondence and indicated the type of letter I had received. I did not purport to quote any particular person or letter but I did take the odd extract out of letters which referred particularly to the problem of age.
As I said in the beginning, the idea is good; the problem is real. I am hopeful that we can come to some conclusion on what can be done to assist older workers. A great many studies have been undertaken and all of them do agree that the problem is there and that the older worker is much more efficient and able to carry on a job than the general public believe. Thank you.
90205-6-280i
Fair Employment Practices Act


John Ferguson Browne: Mr. Speaker, in rising to take part in the debate on this bill I find myself in substantial agreement with what has just been said by the hon. member for Parry Sound-Muskoka. I was rather surprised at the introductory remarks of the mover of the bill, the hon. member for Skeena, but he did not deal with one of the aspects raised by the hon. member for Parry Sound-Muskoka, namely we all recognize that the subject matter of the bill presents a problem. The hon. member for Skeena did not deal at any length with how he felt this particular bill would overcome the problem.


Frank Howard: I will do that when I close the debate.


John Ferguson Browne: I
should think that would be the first consideration we should want to have before us. Before we undertook to enact any such measure we should want to be sure that it was going to have the desired effect. It seems a rather odd time to do it at the end of the debate when hon. members would not have the benefit of the views of the hon. member for Skeena on the subject.
It does seem to me that this bill not only would not overcome the problem with which we have to deal but in fact it perhaps might raise a lot of other problems. For instance, many firms have a pension plan which, as has been pointed out, is designed to provide a man with a retirement income on which he may retire at age 65. As I see it, under the terms of this bill, if a company had a pension plan of that nature and expected its employees to retire at age 65, then that would be discriminatory if the employee declined to resign at 65. He would perhaps feel within his rights to stay there until he was 85 or so long as he was able to work. That aspect of the matter would certainly have to be taken into consideration.
Then again, I think a firm would have many legitimate reasons for wanting a person of a certain age for a particular job. In the explanatory note of this bill I see that the mover has said:
The chief purpose of this bill is to add age discrimination to the list of prohibited employment practices unless age is a bona fide occupational qualification.
I do not know exactly what the definition of a bona fide occupational qualification would be.
Then, the hon. member goes on to say:
A secondary purpose is to prohibit the employer from including in an employment application form, advertisement or written or oral inquiry, a question or request for particulars as to the applicant's -race, national origin, colour, religion or age unless by reason of a bona fide occupational qualification.

Fair Employment Practices Act
It seems to me that a firm would have to take into consideration the average age of its staff. For instance, in the case of a small firm, it might have a small office staff of half a dozen employees, three or four of whom may be getting on toward retirement age. Of course, if that firm was looking to the future it certainly would not want to hire another person who was getting on toward retirement age; it would be looking for someone who would be with the firm for a number of years and would then have the training to carry on. It seems to me that in a case of that kind a firm would have a legitimate reason. Whether it would come within the terms of a bona fide occupational qualification, I do not know. It certainly would not be a good idea if that could be said to be a bona fide occupational qualification. An older person could very well do the job and therefore it could hardly be said to be a bona fide occupational qualification.
For that reason I believe that this particular amendment to prevent discrimination against older workers, with the principle of which I agree, would not in fact overcome the problem. I believe that the Minister of Labour (Mr. Starr) has already taken some very constructive action with regard to the matter. I know that about two years ago I received at my office in my firm in Vancouver a letter sent out by the Minister of Labour in which he drew the attention of many thousands of employers across the country to the problem. I have a copy here and I believe it had a very good effect on firms. As a result of this letter and other actions he has taken, such as setting up a small group under the civilian rehabilitation branch of the Department of Labour to deal with this specific subject, in my opinion he has done a great deal to help to alleviate the situation.
There have been reports that employers have paid attention to the requests of the Department of Labour to try to take some measures to overcome the problem. I notice it is reported that several employers have initiated special savings plans by payroll deduction for new employees who may be too old to enter a pension plan. That was one of the difficulties, and if that scheme could be expanded it would, of course, do a great deal to overcome the problem.
A number of publications have been issued by the Department of Labour and other branches of the government, and I think it might be a good idea to put some of them on the record so that people who are interested in the subject will be able to look at some of the information that has been collected. The following publications have been made available from 1957 to the present time: Pension Plans and the Employment of Older

Workers, 1957, sponsored by the interdepartmental committee on older workers and published by the Department of Labour; Research on the Problem of the Employment of the Older Worker, 1958, by Professor S. D. Clark, University of Toronto, sponsored and published by the economics and research branch, Department of Labour; The Aging Worker in the Canadian Economy, 1959, published by the economics and research branch, Department of Labour; Age and Performance in Retail Trade, 1959, published by the economics and research branch, Department of Labour; The Employability of the Older Worker, 1959, by Professor S. D. Clark, University of Toronto, sponsored and published by the economics and research branch, Department of Labour.
There are others here but I think that is a pretty good list for anyone who is interested in the subject. As I said at the commencement of my remarks, Mr. Speaker, while I am certainly not unsympathetic to the stated purpose of the bill which is to prevent discrimination against older workers, I am in no way convinced that the bill will do anything in that regard at all. In fact, I feel very strongly that not only will it not end any problems but it will raise many new ones.
As was so very well pointed out by the hon. member for Parry Sound-Muskoka (Mr. Aiken), there are very few instances where a man is told that he is being rejected on account of his age, and it would be most difficult to prove discrimination in that regard. Therefore I think the approach that the Minister of Labour has taken and the very active educational campaign he has carried on are a much more satisfactory solution, and I believe that if all members get behind the minister's program and support him in his efforts to try to encourage employers throughout the country to employ older workers we will be doing a more constructive job than we would by passing this bill.


William Lawrence Marven Creaghan: Mr. Speaker, it is my privilege to say a few words with respect to this private member's bill and in commencing my remarks I want to say that, like most hon. members, I am in agreement with the principle of the bill. However, I have reservations as to whether or not Bill No. C-25 would be effective in practice.
Hon. members well realize that in 1953 parliament passed the Canada Fair Employment Practices Act. Section 4 of that act sets out certain employment practices that are prohibited including discrimination on the ground of race, national origin, colour or religion. This bill attempts to add the word "age" to the prohibitions. I am wondering what would be the effect of adding "age"

to this section. Would it mean that certain employers, as stated by a previous speaker, would be obligated to continue employees in employment regardless of whether they had reached age 65 or the pensionable age? I suggest in any case that the bill before us would certainly need further amendment to remove that factor.
Another thing that concerns me is whether or not the words "occupational qualification" should be defined in the bill. Everyone has a general idea of the meaning but as the main act covers such a variety of occupations including working on railways, canals, aerodromes, air transportation, banking, broadcasting and practically every type of national employment it would require a huge list of regulations to set out the various occupational qualifications for each particular type of employment which would be affected by the main act. Consequently it would be most difficult, if not impossible, for the director to formulate regulations.
I think the only way to overcome the problem that Canada faces with reference to the plight of people in middle age who become unemployed is for the government and industry to conduct an educational program in a more strenuous manner. The last speaker mentioned certain publications issued by the Department of Labour. I hope the department will continue the distribution of this literature and will accelerate its efforts in that regard. I understand that the radio labour program, "Canada at Work", has mentioned this subject on many broadcasts and I commend the program for doing so. However, education of the people is not going to solve the problem. I suggest that more action on the part of the federal government might be welcomed at this time.
I might mention, for example, the Department of National Defence. All of us have constituents and friends in the permanent forces. Too many of them are compelled to retire on pension at ages when they are still capable of performing adequate service to the crown. I do not suggest that a man in the infantry who is on active training in peacetime can continue to give good service as an officer, non-commissioned officer or other rank beyond the age of 50 but surely it should be possible for the defence department to absorb some of these people in work where less strenuous exercise is involved and to keep them so employed.
At the present time large numbers of military people are retired daily, and a great many of them are entitled to veterans' preference because they stayed in the forces after the end of hostilities. Although national defence no longer employs them, under the
Fair Employment Practices Act Civil Service Act they are entitled to preference if they served overseas and the civil service commission has no choice but to offer them further employment in the government service. In many instances, civil servant applicants who are well qualified are displaced. I make this suggestion to the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Harkness) because I think it is very closely related to the problem of the older worker today.
Another step which perhaps might correct the situation better than this bill would be the introduction by industry, with government assistance and co-operation, of what are known as portable pensions. I am quite certain, Mr. Speaker, that portable pensions would play a part in solving the occupational problems of people who are unemployed at age 45 and over.
In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, I want to say that I am in agreement with the principle of this bill. However, I do not see how it would be possible to properly police the measure, and if laws cannot be enforced they should not be put on the statute books. To reiterate what I have just said, I feel that the government should take a close and serious look at the problems created by early retirement from the Department of National Defence. If necessary, perhaps the government should also give serious consideration to the plight of people over 40 who are unemployed because of the fact their jobs have disappeared as a result of automation. It might be possible to give some sort of statutory preference to these citizens who could be trained under the vocational training scheme to take up occupations which would lead to employment with the government.
I want to commend the hon. member for introducing this bill because it gives parliament an opportunity to discuss this serious problem, a problem for which every elected representative in all levels of government has a responsibility in order that this social injustice will be eliminated once and for all in Canada.


Ernest James Broome: Mr. Speaker, I, like the previous speakers, am in favour of the principle of the bill. I will try to point out what I feel to be the intent of the sponsor of this bill, and the fact that I believe he would have been better advised to introduce a separate bill instead of amending the Canada Fair Employment Practices Act. I am in agreement with the thoughts which have been expressed that the government might do more with regard to their own advertising for recruits for the civil service. If they were to put in big letters the information that no age qualifications are necessary for the job, that might help. If

Fair Employment Practices Act ages are ever requested, candidates should only be asked whether they are over 18 and under 65.
I believe other speakers have pointed out that the Department of Labour and the present Minister of Labour (Mr. Starr) have conducted intensive campaigns to educate industry to the advantages of employing older workers. The hon. member for Parry Sound-Muskoka (Mr. Aiken) mentioned certain of the objections to employing older workers. It has been shown that these are really prejudices which have no foundation in fact. The older worker can be quite as productive as the younger worker because in our industry today we are machine operators rather than pick and shovel operators. There would be less rather than more absenteeism because the older workers are more dependable. In many cases, the older worker is the best bet for the employer.
In considering this proposal to amend the Canada Fair Employment Practices Act, our attention should be directed to the nature and purposes of the existing legislation which forbids refusal of employment to a person because of his race, national origin, colour or religion. In endorsing the democratic principle of equality of opportunity in employment, the law prevents denial of the essential oneness of the human family in respect of the right of the individual to seek and find work. The question arising from the proposed amendment is whether or not it should be added as an additional factor to these factors which, by law, are eliminated as obstacles to employment. This proposal is, therefore, timely because it reminds us that there is discrimination in regard to age. I feel, however, that an amendment to the Canada Fair Employment Practices Act does not accomplish our purpose of eliminating this particular discrimination.
It is relatively easy to determine whether there is discrimination with regard to race, national origin, colour or religion. It is not so easy, in fact it would be almost impossible under certain circumstances, to determine whether there is discrimination because of age. For example, if a man of 45 is hired, is another applicant of 46 being discriminated against? Age is a common factor; it is common to everyone. As this act now stands on the statute books, it prevents discrimination because of factors which can be readily determined. In the present act the basis of the legislative provisions relates to race, national origin, colour and religion. Equal employment opportunities for the members of minority racial or religious groups is quite a different consideration from safeguarding the employment opportunities of age groups.


If it is the intention of this amendment to protect the older worker, it fails in its purpose because there is nothing in it which restricts the protection to the older worker. As the proposal now stands, a young person could complain and dislodge an older person from employment, regardless of other practical or economic considerations. There is only one clause in this bill, and if this amendment were to carry it would add age to the other grounds upon which discrimination should not be practised. The clause, in part, would say that there shall be no discrimination because of race, national origin, colour, religion or age unless age is a bona fide occupational qualification. In my opinion, this weakens the principle of the bill as it now exists. Therefore I say that it would be much better if the hon. member for Skeena would not try to accomplish his purpose by amending this present statute and that he should rather bring in a bill which would cover discrimination with regard to age and which might bring in other points such as the portability of pensions or other factors which discriminate against the employment of older people. There is already in Canada and in many other countries of the world legislation which permits distinctions in work in relation to age particularly in connection with night work and underground work which is prohibited for minors. It would appear that there is discrimination on the basis of age, and age being the general and universal factor it is, one must secure a method other than that which is proposed in order to eliminate this discrimination.
There is in Canada, as well as in some other countries, an active program through such agencies as the national employment service encouraging employers to employ the older worker. Education and encouragement would appear to be by far the better way of dealing with the problem rather than through legislation unless that legislation can be so worded as to make it clear cut and not subject to wrong interpretation.
It might be interesting, Mr. Speaker, to look at the experience of other countries and even other provinces of Canada with regard to legislation dealing with discrimination. The
I.L.O. committee on discrimination in the field of employment and occupation in 1957 considered this question of discrimination because of age. A vote on the inclusion of age as a basis was rejected by a vote of 109 to 206 with 67 abstentions. In Canada, none of those provinces with fair employment practices legislation includes age as a basis for discrimination. To the knowledge of the Department of Labour, no country in the world has

positive legislation at the national level which makes age a basis for discrimination in fair employment practices legislation.
I understand that in the United States there are some 10 states which have on their statute books legislation relating to the employment of older workers. In six of these states such a provision is included in the state's fair employment practices act. Here is an interesting point. How do these states define age? Massachusetts defines age as from 45 to 65; Pennsylvania defines age as between 40 and 62; the Connecticut and Wisconsin acts refer to persons 40 and 65 and the Oregon act to those between 25 and 65. Rhode Island's prohibition is in a separate act which defines age to mean between 45 and 65.
From the references I have given I think it will be clear to all hon. members and, I hope, to the sponsor of the bill, that discrimination with regard to age is something that is almost impossible to define by statute. It is like trying to bring in legislation to outlaw evil. That is not to say that we should not try to do something about this matter. However, I believe the methods now being used- I refer to the method of education; the method of persuasion now being used by the Department of Labour; the letters from the minister mentioned by the hon. member for Van-couver-Kingsway-will have gradually better and more beneficial results.
I think it is rather difficult for members of parliament, so many of whom are professional people whose highest earnings may start at age 60, to understand the plight of the worker who, through the closure of a plant or through technological changes, is thrown out of a job after the age of 45. These men in many cases are not even given the benefit of an interview. They are rejected on the basis of age. This is not right. It is not even good management on the part of the managers of industrial enterprises to take this stand. Therefore, as I say, the idea of this bill is good, but it should be in the form of a separate bill. Therefore, although I am not talking out this bill, I now move the adjournment of this debate.


Some hon. Members:: Six o'clock.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Robert Jardine McCleave: Will the house leader inform the house of the business for tomorrow?


Gordon Minto Churchill: I should like to make a motion. I move, seconded by the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys (Mr. Comtois):
Business of the House That on Saturday, May 6, 1961, and every Saturday thereafter until the end of the session the order of business and procedure shall be as for Thursday, a government day.


Frank Howard: You would even steal that extra hour away.


Mr. Speaker:: Has the house leader leave to revert to motions?


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, in our opinion he has neither leave to revert to motions nor leave to make the motion which he is now making and, if I am allowed to do so, I will give the reasons why. We attempted to submit to the government, when this matter was under consideration at an earlier date, a program which we thought was a reasonable one. But we were forced by the government to sit on Saturdays. Now, without the consent of the house, the house leader is making this motion. Under no consideration will the opposition consent to that motion being made now.


Gordon Minto Churchill: There was no forcing on the part of the government. The suggestion with regard to sitting on Saturday was agreed to by the house. Lack of agreement to this motion does not prevent the sitting of the house on Saturday in accordance with the motion passed by the house and recorded in Votes and Proceedings for Monday, April 24, at page 468.


Lionel Chevrier: The house rules are quite clear to the effect that the house cannot sit on Saturday unless there is a motion similar to the one which the house leader has made. I, on behalf of the opposition, am not consenting to that motion not only because of what I have said but also because of the statement put on the record by the Prime Minister at page 3928 of Hansard.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The house leader has submitted a motion which, in my view, could not be made at this stage in our proceedings and perhaps could not be made in any event without notice or unanimous consent of the house. In order to found a motion at this stage, I think unanimous consent to revert to motions would be the first step. Without that consent, which I take it is not available, I am sorry to say that I cannot entertain the motion. Unless there is some discussion of the business for tomorrow I shall announce the adjournment of the house.


[Stage Direction]
It being three minutes after six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[Stage Direction]
Questions

[Stage Direction]
The following answers, deposited with the Clerk of the house, are printed in the official report of debates pursuant to standing order 39:

Mr. Regier: What were the travelling expenses paid for by the government in the fiscal year ended March 31, 1960, for each of the ministers of the federal cabinet?
Answer by: Hon. Donald M. Fleming (Minister of Finance):
Minister of
Amount
Agriculture	 $3,302
Citizenship and Immigration 3,747 Defence Production	 531
External Affairs, Secretary of
State for	
Finance	
Fisheries	
Justice	
Solicitor General	
Labour	
Mines and Technical Surveys
National Defence	
National Health and Welfare
National Revenue	
Northern Affairs and National
1,475 3,300 1,891 2,574 1,624 1,707 4,488 J 2,140 12,068 3,323 2,400
Resources 		. 2,281
Postmaster General		. 1,100
Public Works 		J 169 12,267
Secretary of State 		. 1,811
Trade and Commerce		. 6,997
Transport 		. 1,169
Veterans Affairs 	 Without portfolio-	. 2,135
Hon. W. J. Browne		. 436
Hon. J. M. Macdonnell . ..	. 352


HOUSE CONSTRUCTION, JACKPINE RIDGE, MAN.
Mr. Pickersgill: 1.	Does the government intend to build houses at the radar station on Jackpine Ridge between Fairford and St. Martin, Manitoba?
2.	If so, how many houses will be built, and have tenders been called for their construction?
3.	If tenders have been called, have any contracts been let, and, if so, to whom?
4.	On what date is construction expected to start on this project?
5.	Are any commercial buildings to be built at this site?
6.	If so, have tenders been called, and for what buildings?
Answer by: Hon. D. S. Harkness (Minister
of National Defence):
1.	Yes.
2.	It is planned to construct 90 transportable type housing units for this site but tenders have not yet been called for the construction of these units.
3.	Answered by 2.
4.	It is expected that tenders will be called by Defence Construction Limited for the construction of these houses in the fall of 1961. However, tenders have already been called for the installation of the foundations and services for these units. The closing date of this tender call is May 19, 1961.
5.	No.
6.	Not applicable.
[The following items were passed in committee of supply]:


DEPARTMENT OF NORTHERN AFFAIRS AND NATIONAL RESOURCES
[Stage Direction]
279.	Departmental administration including Canada's share of the expenses of the "resources for tomorrow" conference, $1,105,390.
280.	Northern co-ordination and research including a grant of $10,000 to the Arctic institute of North America, and an amount of $5,000 for grants in aid of northern research subject to approval by the treasury board, $141,450.
281.	Contributions to the provinces, pursuant to agreements entered into with the approval of the governor in council, by Canada with the provinces, of amounts equal to one half of the amounts confirmed by the provinces as having been spent by them for campground and picnic area developments, $1,700,000.
282.	Contributions to the provinces to assist in the development of roads leading to resources in accordance with agreements entered into by Canada and the provinces, $12,000,000.
[Stage Direction]
Saturday, May 6, 1961