1961-04-20

Mr. Waller Pitman (Peterborough):: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege which affects every member in this house. My question of privilege is this. The Minister of Agriculture has grossly violated the rights of parliament and assumed powers beyond those authorized for him by substituting the powers of his department for the legislative powers of this parliament.
If I may direct your attention to the order paper for today you will see item No. 4, which reads "Second reading of Bill C-77, an act to provide for the rehabilitation of agricultural lands and the development of rural areas in Canada." Yesterday there came to my office not one, not two but 50 copies of a pamphlet which announces the agricultural rehabilitation and development act. I suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, that there is no agricultural rehabilitation and development act on the statute books of this nation. This pamphlet was produced by the information division of the Department of Agriculture, and some of us will remember some of the pungent comments that were made by the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate on that particular branch when the estimates of the Department of Agriculture were being considered.
I suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, that this is a flagrant abuse of the powers of this department. I suggest to you that this pamphlet states how A.R.D.A. will operate. How can the people of Canada be told how A.R.D.A. will operate when this bill has not received second reading? Is there a suggestion that second reading has no effect? Is it the contention that a debate in this house amounts to nothing more than the rubber-stamping of a measure?


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member has perhaps said enough to indicate the nature of his question of privilege. If he wishes to follow the matter with a motion I shall be glad to determine whether or not there is a prima facie breach of privilege.


Walter George Pitman: I wish to be fair to the Minister of Agriculture. There is nothing in this pamphlet which indicates that the bill has been passed.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Walter George Pitman: I will not, therefore, move a motion of censure or of any kind whatever.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I think the hon. member has gone as far as he should go in his alleged question of privilege.


Hon. Alvin Hamilton (Minister of Agriculture):: In view of the question of privilege raised by the hon. member for Peterborough I think it should be explained to the house that in the debate on the resolution I made it very clear that I should like the opportunity to put this bill before not only the agriculture ministers and resources ministers of the provinces, but also the various farm organizations. I should like to inform the hon. member that across Canada at this very moment farm organizations are meeting and using this pamphlet as a guide to their discussions, so that when they meet their leaders they will have a sound basis on which to suggest amendments to the act-


Mr. Argue:: There is no act.


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: -or the bill to be passed. With that explanation I think the country will understand that in order to have organizations discuss a bill before it becomes law, you must have something tangible to put in front of them. I frankly intend to put out a series of pamphlets on how this act will affect various segments of the agricultural population. I hope they too will study it as part of the agricultural program to help farmers help themselves.


Hon. L. B. Pearson (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, the minister's
statement has nothing whatever to do, of course, with the question of privilege. The question dealt with the circulation of a pamphlet dealing with an act of parliament before that act was passed. Therefore, undoubtedly, that action on the part of the minister is treating parliament with contempt.


Mr. Speaker:: I think perhaps it would be unfair to debate the matter unless there is a finding that there is a prima facie question of privilege and a motion. I was interested

Agricultural Support Prices in the hon. member's point that the department of the Minister of Agriculture had published a pamphlet indicating that there was on the books a statute of this parliament entitled the agricultural rehabilitation and development act, whereas in fact there is-


Lester Bowles Pearson: No such thing.


Mr. Speaker:: -such a bill before the house for second reading. It may be that a reading of the pamphlet would support that view. I have not had time to give a full reading to it, but the description on the face of it is "Agricultural rehabilitation and development act". The first paragraph reads as follows:
On December 15, 1960 the Minister of Agriculture introduced to the House of Commons a resolution concerned with improving the economic position of our farmers.
The resolution introduced the agricultural rehabilitation and development act, or A.R.D.A. for short. I think the implication that the act has been passed is not quite as strong as has been asserted. However, there is a point that no one should assert that parliament has acted before it has done so, particularly a minister. If it is borne out by this document, I think the hon. member would have a point to deal with by motion, but as he has himself indicated that he will not submit a motion, I think enough has been said to close the matter.
(Translation):


Mr. Boulanger (Drummond-Arthabaska):: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. I wish to ask-
(Text):


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I have indicated that I think any further discussion without a motion before the house would be improper.



BANKING AND COMMERCE

[Stage Direction]
Fifth report of standing committee on banking and commerce-Mr. Cathers.


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: Mr. Speaker, the government has authorized the agricultural stabilization board to continue the present level of price support for the dairy industry for the period May 1, 1961, to April 30, 1962.
There are two dairy products presently under price support. Price support for butter is 64 cents per pound for Canada first grade creamery butter scoring 40-93, basis delivery Montreal, with appropriate price differentials for other grades and qualities. Ontario cheese, Canada first grade waxed, f.o.b. warehouse, is presently supported at

32 cents per pound; and Quebec cheese, Canada first grade waxed, basis delivery Montreal, is supported at 31J cents per pound.
The price support for these two dairy commodities for the 12-month period May 1, 1961, to April 30, 1962, will continue at these levels. In addition, 25 cents per hundred pounds will continue to be paid for whole milk delivered for manufacturing purposes, exclusive of milk from producers who sell a portion of their milk in the fluid bottled milk market.
The stabilization board will continue for the present to support the price of butter and cheese by purchasing these products from suppliers at the prescribed support levels. Should any change be made subsequently in the method of support, an announcement will be made well in advance to give the industry sufficient time to make any necessary adjustments. Regardless of the method of support used, however, the level of support to producers now authorized will continue during the 12-month period from May 1, 1961, to April 30, 1962.


Hon. Paul Martin (Essex East):: Mr. Speaker, all one can say with regard to this announcement by the minister is that the statement does not fully comply with the requests made by the dairy producers, as stated recently in the brief presented to the government by the federation of agriculture.


Hazen Robert Argue: Mr. Speaker, in the light of all the propaganda that is being directed across the country against price support programs for the dairy industry, I am pleased that the government has announced the continuation of support prices on these dairy products. I always give the government credit when credit is due.
The announcement will reassure the dairy industry, particularly as the minister has assured dairy producers that the government will continue to purchase their products at these fixed support prices. This means a real guarantee and is in no way a phony guarantee such as would come from an average price deficiency support program. The minister has left the door open to a change in method, but he did seem to assure the dairy industry that even if the method is changed these particular guarantees to the producers will be maintained. Apparently for the coming year the dairy industry will have the support prices continued that they have enjoyed to date.
The minister left unanswered the question whether consumers will be allowed to purchase butter at lower prices in order

to move it onto the markets. Perhaps the minister will have an announcement on this matter at a later time.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


Hon. W. G. Dinsdale (Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources):: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to announce that the government has extended to May 31 the winter works program for the construction of picnic areas and camp grounds in the provinces. The program was originally scheduled to terminate on April 30. All participating provinces have been advised by telegram of this decision.
The program, which has resulted in an expenditure of $10\ million over the past four years and has provided 517,000 man days of employment, has been welcomed by all participating provinces as an outstanding contribution to our growing tourist industry.



ANNOUNCEMENT OF FINAL PAYMENT

Francis Alvin George Hamilton: Hon. members will recall that on February 13 last I announced the final payment on the 1959-60 oat account. I am now pleased to be in a position to announce final payments on the 1959-60 barley account.
The 1959-60 barley pool was closed as at March 30, 1961. Producers delivered 94.9 million bushels of barley to the pool and the surplus for distribution to producers is $2,022,170.66. The final payments for distribution to producers on the principal grades of barley are as follows:
No. 2 Canada western 6 row		 2.173
No. 3 Canada western 6 row		 2.173
No. 4 Canada western 6 row		 1.183
No. 2 Canada western 2 row		 7.123
No. 3 Canada western 2 row		 3.658
No. 1 feed	 1.182
No. 2 feed	 3.960
No. 3 feed	 8.138
Tough No. 3 Canada western	6	row __ 2.173Tough No. 3 Canada western	2	row ....	3.658Tough No.	1	feed	
1.182Tough No.	2	feed	
3.960Tough No.	3	feed	
8.138
The final barley payment will commence immediately.


Hazen Robert Argue: About this time of the year we expect an announcement about the final payments on various grains. The payment which has been announced now is very tiny, almost insignificant, and this demonstrates that in the selling of barley the wheat board, as far as making a final payment is concerned, was operating on a very narrow margin. While producers will always be prepared
Inquiries of the Ministry to take advantage of the final payments, the present announcement means that the prices for barley now being received are lower than they were a few years ago.



NATIONAL DESIGN


Hon. George H. Hees (Minister of Trade and Commerce) moved: for leave to introduce Bill No. C-85, for the establishment of a national design council.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.


EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Lester Bowles Pearson: I should like to ask a question of the Prime Minister. In view of the latest developments in Cuba and yesterday's statement on the subject by the right hon. gentleman, is it the policy of the government to continue to maintain what the Secretary of State for External Affairs described on Wednesday in New York as normal relations with the Castro government in Cuba?


Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prime Minister):: As the hon. gentleman knows, throughout the years, no matter what our disagreements may be with other nations as far as their philosophy is concerned, we have endeavoured to conduct normal relations.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Secretary of State for External Affairs a question arising out of a reported statement made yesterday by the right hon. Prime Minister of India in the parliament at New Delhi, a statement which amounts to an implied criticism of what the Prime Minister of India calls inadequate security arrangements made with regard to offices such as those in which the unfortunate incident took place in Ottawa yesterday. Does the Secretary of State for External Affairs not feel that he should make a statement in reply to the reported statement of the Prime Minister of India?


Hon. Howard C. Green (Secretary of Stale for External Affairs):: Mr. Speaker, in the first place I should like to express the deepest distress which I know is felt throughout this house over the wanton murder of the Indian first secretary yesterday in Ottawa, and our great regret that a frightful crime of this kind
3828	HOUSE OF
Inquiries of the Ministry should have taken place in this city which cost the life of a respected member of the diplomatic corps. The house will wish to join with me in extending the sincerest sympathy to the bereaved family. I am informed that a complete investigation is under way into this crime, but I fully realize that no punishment can repair the grievous loss of this young man's life or erase the deep shock which all of us have felt at this tragedy.
We have not yet received the text of what Mr. Nehru is alleged to have said in the Indian parliament, and I would not wish to comment simply on the basis of a radio report. However, as the hon. member for Essex East knows, diplomatic missions in Ottawa, like the general public, are protected by the law and order which is assured for all in this city in the normal way by the competent local authorities. It is not our practice to provide any additional security unless such protection is requested by the foreign mission itself or there is reason to believe it is needed. Hon. members will, of course, appreciate that security within the precincts of any diplomatic mission is naturally a matter for the mission itself to arrange and is not the responsibility of any Canadian authorities.
We feel very deeply about this unfortunate incident, and I do not think there is anything further that I can say at the present time.


Mr. H. W. Herridge (Kootenay West):: Mr. Speaker, I would like to associate this group with the condolences expressed by the Secretary of State for External Affairs on account of this most unfortunate and regrettable event. I would like to ask him whether he is aware of the fact that the protection staff were very concerned about this person and had on a number of occasions warned various secretaries and members about this man being in the building.


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, so far as the Department of External Affairs is concerned, we had absolutely no information about this man being a danger in the community. What knowledge there may have been elsewhere I am not in a position to say.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr,
Speaker, I wish to address a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs. In view of the statement by Mr. Kevin Griffin, while being interviewed on a television news broadcast last evening over CJOH, that he was one of 100 Canadians from the maritimes who had volunteered to fight against the government of Cuba as a mercenary at a salary 

of $800 a month, still unpaid, and further that they were equipped with Canadian army issue rifles, Bren guns and grenades, would the minister inform the house whether he has any knowledge of this recruiting on behalf of the Cuban counter-revolutionary army and of the equipping of these men with Canadian rifles, Bren guns and grenades, which Mr. Griffin indicated may have been obtained from a Canadian army source? Has the minister any comments to make with respect to this statement, which is causing serious concern to many people? I might say that my telephone has been ringing almost continuously all morning.


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, in answer to this question may I say we have no knowledge of the kinds of activities which apparently were described by this person on television last night. My understanding is that he did not suggest he had been recruited in Canada. The policy of the Canadian government has been and is not to tolerate the recruiting of Canadian citizens by foreign agents on Canadian soil. As hon. members know, no export of military equipment to the Caribbean region has been authorized since July of 1959.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I should like to ask the Minister of National Defence a supplementary question based on my question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs. Can the minister enlighten the house further with respect to the statements made by this person on television?


Hon. D. S. Harkness (Minister of National Defence):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to thank the hon. member for giving me notice of his intention to ask this question. The man in question, Griffin, served in the Canadian navy for some time, from which he was released because of a pulhems S-5 rating. Subsequently he enlisted in the Canadian army under his brother's name and served in the army from January, 1957 to July, 1957. His proper name finally became known and he was released, again with an S-5 pulhems profile.
With regard to the statement which I am told he made on television last night that Canadian .303 rifles, Bren guns and Sten guns stolen from Camp Gagetown were issued to these people alleged to have been recruited in Canada, I am informed there have never been any .303 rifles, Bren guns or Sten guns issued at Camp Gagetown. From the time the camp opened the new rifle was issued there. There have been no thefts at Camp Gagetown since January 1 of 1960, except for one pistol.

Therefore the allegation that these were Canadian rifles, Bren guns and Sten guns stolen from Camp Gagetown is completely incorrect.


Mr. Pugh:: Would the minister explain the significance of the pulhems S-5 rating?


Douglas Scott Harkness: Mr. Speaker, I do not think I had better go into the whole list of pulhems tests. It is a stability rating.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hazen Robert Argue: May I ask
the Prime Minister whether he will comment on press reports that certain interviews have been held by members of the government with the presidents of the railway companies and the chief negotiator for the railway unions. Can the right hon. gentleman further tell the house whether a settlement seems imminent, and what further action is being taken by the government to bring this about?


John George Diefenbaker: The government is naturally interested, as are the Canadian people, in a solution to the differences between the railway companies and the unions, and naturally has endeavoured to bring about negotiations and continuation of negotiations between the principals. Several of my colleagues-three to be exact-have met with the presidents of the two railways. The Minister of Labour has met with Mr. Hall, chairman of the negotiating committee of the unions, and I think I can say that we shall continue to have meetings between the government and each of these parties to the end that we hope-while I am not expressing any certainty in that hope-an amicable agreement may be arrived at.



ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Gabriel Roberge (Meganiic):: I should like to direct a question to the Solicitor General. Will the minister comment on the fact that 38 out of 48 death sentences have now been commuted by the present government, while in only 14 cases has there been a recommendation of mercy?


Hon. W. J. Browne (Solicitor General):: Mr. Speaker, this matter involves the exercise 90205-6-242
Inquiries of the Ministry of the royal prerogative of mercy and is carried out by the Governor General as the representative of Her Majesty the Queen. I do not think I should make any further comment on this matter.
(Translation):



NATIONAL DEFENCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Maurice Allard (Sherbrooke):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Associate Minister of National Defence. Would he advise the house about the appointment of a new dean of studies at the St. Jean Royal Military College?
Would the minister also avail himself of this opportunity to reply to the recommendations contained in a brief already submitted to him by the federation of St. Jean Baptiste societies, with regard to certain problems concerning the same college?


Hon. Pierre Sevigny (Associate Minister of National Defence):: Mr. Speaker, in reply to the question of the hon. member for Sherbrooke, I am pleased to inform the house that the new dean of studies at the St. Jean Royal Military College has been selected. It is Dr. Gauthier, aged 40, who was successful in the competition held by the civil service commission and the selection committee. Dr. Gauthier was selected on the basis of his qualifications and ability.
With regard to the second part of the question, I feel that the time available to members and ministers on the orders of the day would not suffice to reply to all the points raised in the brief submitted by the federation of St. Jean Baptiste societies of the province of Quebec. However, it is my intention, at a later date, or probably when the national defence estimates are before the house, to give a full report on each of the points submitted concerning the problems relating to the St. Jean Royal Military College. As for now, may I inform the house that the Department of National Defence authorities intend to maintain the bilingual character of St. Jean Royal Military College. Moreover, they intend to maintain as accurately as possible the proportion of Frenchspeaking and English-speaking students to 60 per cent and 40 per cent respectively.
3830	HOUSE OF
Inquiries of the Ministry
I should also tell the house that the question of extending the present course to four years is being constantly and fully looked into. Besides, as I said a moment ago, I intend to give the house a report as complete as possible in the near future.



AGRICULTURE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Samuel Boulanger: Mr. Speaker, I should like to put a question to the Minister of Agriculture. Could the minister inform us when he distributed the A.R.D.A. pamphlet and whether he has sent a copy to all the members?
(Text):


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: Mr. Speaker, there has been no planned pattern of distribution. I sent copies to the various ministers of agriculture across Canada and to the heads of farm organizations as a basis on which they could make comments when I had my usual contact with them before second reading of the bill was moved. In the pamphlet it says that if further copies are requested they can be secured from the Canada Department of Agriculture. I should like to point out that not only the farm organizations but provincial governments as well have asked for them, including the government of Saskatchewan, which has asked for 2,500 copies.
(Translation):


Samuel Boulanger: Mr. Speaker, I must point out to the minister that nearly three weeks have now elapsed since I wrote asking for this pamphlet which I have not yet been able to obtain.
I should also like to ask the minister whether this particular pamphlet was published in French.
(Text):


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: Yes, they will be published in the French language.


Mr. Frank Howard (Skeena):: I should like to ask a supplementary question. Would the Minister of Agriculture indicate whether he also circulated the bill in the same manner?


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: Yes, Mr. Speaker. The letter I sent to the ministers in the various provinces included a copy of the bill and a copy of the pamphlet, with a request that they study them so that when we met there would be some basis for discussion.


Hazen Robert Argue: Can the
minister inform the house how many copies of the pamphlet have been printed?


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: I do not know, but I will take the question as notice.


Mr. G. J. Mcllrailh (Ottawa West):: May I
ask a supplementary question. Can the minister advise the house what was the cost of printing and circulating these pamphlets?


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: I will be glad to take the question as notice.
(Translation):



HARBOURS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Leon Balcer (Minister of Transport):: A question was asked on April 17 by the hon. member for Maisonneuve-Rosemont concerning the cancellation of restrictions placed upon persons who like to go fishing in the Montreal harbour.
I am advised by the national harbours board that its regulations prohibit entering upon its premises without proper authorization. Such prohibition is necessary so that harbour operations may go unhampered and that the public may be protected against dangers it might run against in harbour areas.
The board points out that it does not intend to thwart the legitimate eagerness of anglers provided that the spirit of the regulations be respected.
(Text) ,*



INQUIRY FOR RETURN


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Noel Dorion (Secretary of State):: Yesterday the hon. member for Fort William inquired as to when he could expect an answer to his question No. 132, which was passed as an order for return on March 22. The officials of my department communicated with the several departments still outstanding and I can inform the hon. member that I hope the return will be tabled shortly.



SASKATCHEWAN


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Lester Bowles Pearson: May I ask the Prime Minister whether he will table the report from the lieutenant governor of Saskatchewan and any other relevant documents on the reservation of Bill 56 of the legislature of that province.


John George Diefenbaker: I see no objection to that. However, before agreeing to do so I should ascertain whether, in the past, it has been

the custom to do so. If there is nothing to the contrary I see no reason whatever for not acceding to the request.



HOUSING


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. W. H. McMillan (Welland):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Public Works in connection with the announcement made by the minister that the government has directed C.M.H.C. to sell mortgages held in its portfolio. Can the minister say whether any such sales have already taken place or been negotiated?


Hon. D. J. Walker (Minister of Public Works):: I will take that question as notice. Certainly none have been made under the new arrangements.


William Hector McMillan: May I ask a supplementary question?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The minister said he would take the question as notice.



SECONDARY MORTGAGE MARKET-REPLY TO REQUEST FOR INFORMATION AS TO REGULATIONS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. D. J. Walker (Minister of Public
Works): Yesterday the hon. member for Bur-naby-Coquitlam asked a question about the intention of the government to acquaint members of parliament with the new regulations. In my statement to the house on April 17 dealing with the subject of the development of a secondary mortgage market, I stated that there remain several technical and procedural matters to be resolved. These matters are presently being worked on, and shortly it will be determined whether we will require regulations to be established by order in council or whether we can establish procedures within the framework of existing legislation and regulations. The house will be informed of the details when the various matters are resolved.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. P. Deschaielefs (Maisonneuve-Rose-mont):: I should like to direct a question to the Prime Minister. In today's edition of La Presse there is a reference to a letter written to the authorities of the city of Montreal by the Prime Minister in respect of a subway
90205-6-242J
Inquiries of the Ministry project. Would the Prime Minister let us know the contents of this letter?


John George Diefenbaker: I think the best thing to do is for me to table the letter. I will do that tomorrow.



RICHELIEU WATERWAY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Howard Charles Green: On April 14 I took as notice a question which was asked by the hon. member for Chambly-Rouville and which read as follows:
Could the minister inform the house about a press report in this morning's paper to the effect that the secretary of state of the United States is attempting to obtain the views of the Canadian government regarding the formation of a Canada-U.S. joint committee to consider the feasibility of deepening the Richelieu river?
The answer to that question is that I have seen a press report dealing with this matter which may well be the one referred to by the hon. member in his question of April 12 addressed to the Acting Minister of Transport. There has, however, been no communication this year from the United States authorities regarding the formation of a joint Canada-U.S.A. committee to study the feasibility of deepening the Richelieu river.



FINANCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Herbert Wilfred Herridge: should like to address a question to the Minister of Finance based on another telephone call from a gentleman. In view of President Kennedy's reported proposal to congress today that United States companies operating abroad be no longer granted tax exemptions on profits reinvested in those countries, may I ask whether this proposal, if given effect by congress, will restrict investment in Canada and have an unfavourable effect on the expansion of the Canadian economy?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. If the minister wishes to answer he may do so, but in my opinion the question is asking for information about a purely hypothetical situation which will not arise unless congress adopts the proposal.



INQUIRY AS TO FURTHER SALES TO CHINA

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hazen Robert Argue: I wonder whether the Minister of Agriculture would
3832	HOUSE OF
Inquiries of the Ministry have anything to report to the house concerning the negotiations between Canada and China for the sale of further quantities of Canadian wheat. Would the minister care to say whether the report that agreement has been reached for the sale of 80 million bushels of wheat to China is correct? If so, will the announcement be made immediately?


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: As I said in answer to a question by the Leader of the Opposition some time ago, this matter is still under discussion and it is not in the public interest to say any more.


Hazen Robert Argue: Mr. Speaker, is the minister, by his statement, denying that part of the report which says an announcement will be made after seeding so the farmers will not seed additional acreage to wheat?


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: I think the hon. member for Assiniboia has a suspicious mind.


Hazen Robert Argue: You did not deny it.



INDUSTRY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Paul Joseph James Martin: I should like to ask the Prime Minister whether he is in a position now to indicate when we may expect the tabling of the royal commission report on the automobile industry by Professor Bladen?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, the answer is in the negative.


Paul Joseph James Martin: In view of the fact that Professor Bladen is reported to have discussed matters with the Prime Minister a few days ago, can the Prime Minister say whether the report will be tabled before the presentation of the budget by the Minister of Finance?


John George Diefenbaker: I am unable to say. PUBLICATIONS



INQUIRY AS TO REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Lester Bowles Pearson: May I ask the Prime Minister whether we are likely to receive the report of the O'Leary commission before the press gallery dinner?


John George Diefenbaker: I do not know what the contents will be, but I would hope it would be afterward.



ESTATE TAX


Hon. Donald M. Fleming (Minister of Finance) moved: the third reading of Bill No. C-82, to implement a convention between Canada and the United States of America for the avoidance of double taxation and the prevention of fiscal evasion with respect to taxes on the estates of deceased persons.
Motion agreed to and bill read the third time and passed.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Flynn in the chair.



POST OFFICE DEPARTMENT

[Stage Direction]
308. Departmental administration including Canada's share of the upkeep of the international bureaux at Berne and Montevideo, $2,174,216.
Mr. Fisher:: Mr. Chairman, it is really an impertinence to get up a second time on the first item of the minister's estimates, but I think I have a point that will interest the committee and I am sure will interest the minister. The Liberal party established a provisional kind of shadow cabinet to sit opposite the government departments in order to keep check. We all know the flair, the elan, and the wit which the hon. member for St. Denis has applied to this task. He has taken it with a great deal of seriousness. In a sense he has met the minister on many points of conflict, and we have had a great deal of humour and wit in the house with regard to the Post Office Department.
This is in a tradition. When the Conservatives were in the opposition the present Postmaster General was very much to the fore as the critic of the post office in that particular party grouping. We know how, with perhaps not quite the wit or the elan but certainly with even more persistence and study, he continually analysed and criticized the Post Office Department. Just the other day the Postmaster General was taken very much to task for the fact that he had failed to really carry out all the changes and improvements he had advocated when he was in this shadow cabinet position.
I hope that my remarks when I first spoke on this item indicated that I at least as an individual member have a great respect for the way in which the minister has gone into the operations of his department. Whatever the criticisms we may make, I think he has made an inordinate effort in relation to the job, more than most ministers do, in order to master all the details of the department. In fact he has become so knowledgeable about

all details that it is really superfluous for him to have in front of him the officials of the department. We have here a minister who really knows all the aspects of his department's operations and who is prepared to give them at the drop of the hat.
Being aware of this situation, being somewhat of a suspicious mind-I hope not in a bad sense-and having a few pipe lines, and by that I mean avenues of communication- to various parts of Ottawa, a couple of things have struck me in relation to this department. As I say, the minister is much more knowledgeable than the average minister about the operations of his department. Normally the estimates of the Post Office Department come in later in the year. This tends to be the pattern. I found out-and I could be corrected in this respect-that the deputy minister of this particular department, the civil servant in charge, seems to be due for retirement in May, 1961. These two pieces of information I began to put together with a little bit of questioning and a little bit of probing. I have a very hot tip, you might say, for the committee and it is to the effect that we may be able to look forward to having this extremely competent and knowledgeable minister of the crown as the next deputy minister in charge of the Post Office Department.


An hon. Member:: That knocks you out.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I am afraid I have not the knowledge of the Post Office Department which is possessed by the Postmaster General. It seems to me that this suggestion opens up all kinds of prospects. At by-elections the question will be asked whether it is a case of little furry animals deserting the ship and all that sort of thing. I hate to put it from that point of view, but I raise the spectre for the committee. Suppose-and I am not conceding it for a moment-that at the next election the Liberal party should win.


Paul Joseph James Martin: They will win.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Suppose they pick their shadow cabinet critic, the hon. member for St. Denis to become Postmaster General. I ask you to conceive of this situation.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I ask you to conceive of the hon. member for St. Denis as Postmaster General and the present minister as deputy postmaster general. This leads me to present to the minister several questions. I should like to know whether it is true that we are to have at some time in the near future a replacement, because of retirement or other circumstances of the deputy minister in charge of the department. I should also like him to tell me whether this mastery he has gained
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of the department is again going to be put to such use as I have indicated or, in other words, whether we can look forward to his being a senior civil servant.
I have not any criticism to present of this particular trend. I know there is some criticism of the other government to the effect that they used to take people out of the civil service and put them into the cabinet. I do not think it is such a bad thing.


Mr. Macdonnell:: I always listen with
interest to the hon. member. I have followed his remarks today, but up to the present time I have been unable to ascertain whether he is making a political speech or telling us a fairy tale. May we know which it is?


An hon. Member:: It is the same thing.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I cannot tell the hon. member whether it is a fairy tale. As a private member the hon. member knows how difficult it is for a private member to confirm all these things. However, I was trying to put together a few points that have come to my attention and, quite frankly, a rather hot tip. I thought this was the place, namely on the minister's estimates just before he makes a statement, to ask him whether he could enlighten us upon this possibility. As I say, I am not being political. I would not mind seeing the Postmaster General as the senior civil servant of the department. I do not know what are the views of other hon. members, but I am willing to admit that he is extremely knowledgeable about this department. However, there is raised, as I said, the issue of the hon. member for St. Denis vis-a-vis the deputy minister. It also raises the question of instead of elevating civil servants to the cabinet, making members of the cabinet civil servants. I believe this to a degree is a new trend, and I think we would welcome the minister's comments upon this particular point of view.


Mr. Hamilton (Notre Dame de Grace):: think perhaps at this time I should deal with some of the points raised in the last day and a half, and perhaps first and immediately with the fantasy which the hon. member for Port Arthur has built upon the one and only piece of information that is known or even under consideration, as far as I know, by anyone. I refer to the fact that the deputy minister reaches the normal age of retirement some time during this summer. The appointment of deputy ministers rests with the Prime Minister. Certainly if the hon. member calls that a hot tip, I call it rather cold information.


Paul Joseph James Martin: May I ask the
minister a question?


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: Yes.

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Mr. Marlin (Essex Easl):: In view of the fact that the hon. member for Port Arthur has announced that he does not intend to run for parliament again, would the minister consider the appointment of the present hon. member for Port Arthur as the suocessor to the present deputy minister in the Post Office Department?


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: The
only thing I have to say on that matter is that undoubtedly if it were done he would be much happier under me than under the other supposition that the hon. member for St. Denis would be postmaster general.
Having as definitely as I can dispelled any of the suggestions made by the hon. member for Port Arthur with regard to the deputy postmaster general, I want to thank him very much indeed for the compliment. The long experience and background of the present deputy and the contribution he has made to the department over the years mean that his shoes are going to be big and difficult ones to fit. Anyone who is even considered for the post should certainly be proud.
Listening to the comments of the various opposition members and the criticisms of the department I could not help but remember a story. I think this perhaps sums up their attitude as I see it. This is the story of the guide who had a rather remarkable hunting dog of which he was very proud. The guide took a member of the opposition out duck hunting. They got into the blind, and after they had been there a little while the ducks started going in. They shot one of the ducks and it fell into the water. The guide turned to his remarkable dog and said "Fetch". The dog started off after the duck, and the remarkable thing about the dog was that, having large paws, he ran across the water rather than swimming to pick up the duck.
He picked up the duck and brought it back into the blind. The member of the opposition said absolutely nothing about this. The guide was rather upset that nothing had been said, and he turned to the member of the opposition and said, "Didn't you notice anything remarkable about the dog?" The member of the opposition said, "Yes; he can't swim".
It seems to me it is possible for the opposition to overlook all the accomplishments of all the different groups in the department and at the same time pick away, without foundation in most cases, at a few things which some hon. members suggest imply that there is something wrong. As far as I am concerned the criticism that has been levelled against me by hon. member after hon. member, of taking too much pride in the Post Office Department and its accomplishments and reporting them with too much pride to this house-to the extent that this criticism

is made and is true, I am very happy. I am immensely proud of what this department and every person in it has accomplished. I have no apology to make for the way in which my statement was presented on behalf of the department.
I want to thank all hon. members who have participated in the debate. Their helpful ideas will be given every consideration. I will reply now to as many of the points as possible. Others can be raised on the individual items, or where we have not the information available now we will answer by correspondence as rapidly as possible.
I want to say to the hon. member for St. Denis that I regret the general attitude he took, that this debate is a time for buffoonery. The House of Commons has ample opportunity, and sometimes ample need, for humour. Certainly we appreciate it, but the House of Commons is not a burlesque house, as I felt some of his remarks tended to make it. The report of his speech made news right across the country. However, it was not the type of news which I think in general helped the reputation of this house as a chamber of serious debate. The height of his contribution -if one can dignify any particular item by having any height, though I suppose that among mole hills almost anything is a mountain-was the question of automation, mechanization and postal progress.
I gather that the hon. member is against such measures, although it is a little hard to tell. He is reported in Hansard as saying, and I use his exact words:
(Translation):
I am all for progress, but I am against it-
(Text):
The English translation of these remarks is officially:
I am all for progress, but I am against it.
Again on the same item, as reported at page 3640 of Hansard, the hon. member said: (Translation):
I am all In favour of forging ahead and keeping in step with other countries, but... I think it is time to put a stop to such experiments-
(Text):
The official English translation is:
I am all in favour of forging ahead and keeping in step with other countries, but... I think it is time to put a stop to such experiments ...
I do not think we have ever heard a better example of being on both sides of the fence at the same time and being completely illogical. I think these two quotations from page 3640 of Hansard will go down in history in that respect.
Nor are the hon. member's figures any more dependable than his reasoning. The hon. member's statement that the parcel post rate changes will yield a revenue increase of $22 million is quite wrong. The revenue increase,

as previously reported and which is on record in Hansard and available to all, is $9.3 million. The hon. member was quoting the total revenues which the department received two years ago from the parcel post rate.
The hon. member said:
(Translation):
-parcel post rates have gone up 90 per cent.
(Text):
The English translation is:
... parcel post rates have Increased by 90 per cent.
The actual increase is 44 per cent. The hon. member says that the department's publication "Postmark" printed my picture 70 times. In 1960, even if you throw in all the members of parliament, my parliamentary assistant and myself, there were only 13 occasions on which our pictures appeared. More significantly, in 1960 some 1,642 postal employees' pictures appeared in our little magazine that is devoted to telling our staff what their far-flung organization is doing.
The hon. member for St. Denis said there was no French version of our public relations pamphlet "Letter Perfect". Such a version, which is an exact duplicate, is available on exactly the same basis and for the same purpose as the English one. I have it here, and I might mention in passing that to the best of my knowledge it was mailed to the hon. member with the same letter that went out to other hon. members of the house. I am looking at other hon. members over there and I am appealing to their honesty. They will know they received the French version of our pamphlet in the mail. Let them deny it.
The hon. member for St. Denis says that this year there were more thefts and more money involved in those thefts. In my opening remarks I pointed out that there were 295 post office break-ins in the past fiscal year as compared with 366 in the previous year. For the first 11 months cash and postage supply losses were down from $162,000 to $92,000, so the hon. member was wrong again.
There is no point in continuing with this recital of his discrepancies and errors, and I do not intend to do so. I merely point out that this is not a matter of differing opinions. This is a simple case of mathematics and facts being completely and absolutely wrong. His entire remarks with regard to the post office bristled with factual inaccuracies and wrong conclusions.
Now let me deal with a few of the other points raised by hon. members. First, automation and mechanization. We find that the Liberal party is against it. We find that the C.C.F. party favour it, each according to their remarks. We find the hon. member for St. Denis saying this on the subject:
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He should at least wait until there is less unemployment before thinking about replacing men by machines.
(Text):
The translation is, and this is significant:
We should at least wait until there is less unemployment before thinking about replacing men with machines.
This is one of the fundamental differences between the hon. member for St. Denis and the whole Liberal party and myself and my party. We are looking ahead. Our work and our studies are not being carried out for the next two or three months; they are being carried out for years ahead. Our plans in the Post Office Department are for years ahead. The concept that you should wait until you are faced with a disastrous situation before doing anything about it, which is exactly the concept put forward by the hon. member for St. Denis, is of course completely wrong. The hard facts are that we have to think ahead. Machines must be developed if we are to continue our efficient operation with the increasing volume of mail and the increasing size of our cities. We must do this to keep postal rates reasonable and extend our services as members of parliament have asked us to do.
Look back over past history. We started off with men clearing letter boxes on foot and carrying the mail in bags over their shoulders. We mechanized with horses and wagons, and then with trucks. Do you want us to go back to the days of men clearing mail boxes on foot? We originally started off hand stamping every individual letter in order to cancel the postage stamp. Today we have machines for that purpose. Do you want us to go back to employing hundreds of people at rush times in the post office, who will be standing there stamping one letter after another and handling the mail? We used to have men carry bags from one point to another. It is a rough, difficult task. We put in conveyors to do it, to try to dignify people and free them to do other jobs which make a greater demand on their human intelligence.
I have no apologies to make for that sort of thing. Perhaps the best present example of how foolish is this argument against automation is that just within the past year, by the development of automated accounting processes, we have been able to pay our 8,000 revenue postmasters across this country twice a month instead of only once a month. This is something for which they have been asking for years and years. When I asked them if they would like to go back to a one pay a month system their remarks were not too complimentary, and I can understand why.

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On the one hand we have the Liberal party saying the postal workers are ill treated by the present administration and that their morale is low, and on the other hand we have the hon. member for Kootenay West, representing another party of the opposition with no better reason to favour this government, saying that in recent years there has been a great improvement in morale owing to improvements in administration and working conditions. I think we need go no further than to add the fact that postal employees today are better paid and better treated and receive better co-operation from management within the post office than ever before in our history, and that none of them are afraid of postal progress or automation.
Criticism has been levelled at the public relations department generally. I think basically this represents a misunderstanding of one of the major functions of this department. This is not a group designed to get publicity for the post office as such. It is what one might call a customer relations operation in very large measure. The majority of the personnel in the department spend their full time in centres across Canada working with postal users, ironing out special problems, leaving postmasters free to contemplate the day to day administration of their offices.
On the question of the deficit, our policy, enunciated originally and adhered to since, is to so operate the department as to break even on our over-all operation. The estimated $9 million deficit this year is really due to salary adjustments which ran throughout the entire year. There is no complaint about that; they are fair, reasonable and just. Next year when the changes in parcel post rates are in operation I confidently expect the department again to come close to, or reach, this breakeven point.
As far as the increase in parcel post rates is concerned, the opposition chose to criticise that as well, and I would remind them that this is the first increase in ten years. The amount of the increase has been very badly misrepresented; one hon. member said the increase amounted to as much as 100 per cent. In fact it represents an average increase of 44 per cent. One of our major actions was to remove a special rate which had previously existed within 20 miles of post offices. This concession had been introduced many years ago at a time when communications were not as good as they are today, and when many farmers were in the habit of doing their shopping by mail. In recent times this particular section of the rates was being misused by some of the largest mailers in Canada, who would bundle up their parcels and send them by freight or car to a particular post office, and thus serve a great mass

of people within 20 miles of that post office at a rate substantially below cost. The elimination of that rate will react to the benefit of the small shopkeeper and the small operator.
It must be remembered, too, that over the past ten years rail transport costs have gone up 120 per cent, and that our clerks are making 40 per cent more than they formerly did. There have been five rate increases by our competitors since the last one we put into operation. Finally, parcel post is still by far the cheapest way of sending parcels in Canada. I quote three rates as examples. A one pound parcel for delivery in the same province cost 10 cents under the old rate. The present rate in 23 cents and the corresponding express rate is $1. A five pound parcel sent three provinces away cost 67 cents under the old rate; the new rate is 84 cents, and the express rate is $1.07. A ten pound parcel sent to an adjoining province cost 89 cents under the old rate and $1.14 under the new rate. The express rate is $1.30. I still think that in the field of parcel post rates we have a most satisfactory and economic service.
Then, as to patronage, if you listened only to the words and overlook the examples you would think we were doing terrible things in this field. I tried to look into as many cases of this so-called patronage as I could. In one case I found that the man was operating a bakery and intended to go on operating it. He could not be a postmaster if he was operating a bakery full-time. How can a man bake bread and be able to serve the public in another capacity at the same time? In a number of other cases, including one at Trail, I found that these were straight civil service appointments made by the civil service commission, and if anyone wishes to question the integrity of the civil service commission he is free to do so, though I think it would be regrettable. The hon. member for St. Denis complains because we dismissed a postmaster for signing the nomination papers of a provincial candidate. Well, everyone of us knows that the signing of nomination papers very definitely places you on one side of the political fence as one of that man's supporters. We are not prepared in the department for that to be done.
The hon. member for Timiskaming in this same patronage field got himself into a long and involved discussion concerning a post office in Haileybury. I myself tried to find the newspaper account in the Toronto Telegram of March 14 which was supposed to report this incident. I went through every edition of the Telegram of that date, and the report is not there, Mr. Chairman. I looked at the Northern News, which he also purported to quote from, and I could not find

it there although I admit there were two pages torn out of that newspaper. Certainly it is not on record in the library. I finally sent my secretary to see the hon. member for Timiskaming but he could not produce any clippings either.
Actually I have nothing to say about the subject, except that it does not seem to have any foundation whatsoever. That is the sort of case that is supposed to have been made against us, and against me personally, contending that patronage is being practised in this department. In the Post Office Department we make something approaching 1,000 appointments every year, 850 of them, give or take a few, being made on my own authority as Postmaster General. Those who carp about patronage machinations on our part can only come into this house with about three or four trumped up incidents, every one of which can be immediately thrown out as having no effect. That is all I have to say about that subject.


Mr. Richard (Ottawa East):: I am not going to follow up, because I am not an expert-


The Chairman:: I believe the minister only yielded the floor, and unless the hon. member is rising to put a question he is out of order.


William McLean Hamilton: The
hon. member is not going to follow up at this time, Mr. Chairman, because I am going to continue with a few remarks.


Jean-Thomas Richard: I thought you had concluded your remarks.


William McLean Hamilton: No.


Jean-Thomas Richard: Because you spoke so loudly I thought you had finished.


William McLean Hamilton: The
hon. member looked at me with his eyes and jumped up with his mouth.
I have dealt as briefly as I could with the general comments which seemed to permeate the debate, as well as a few specific items. The hon. member for Burnaby-Coquitlam and the hon. member for Middlesex East urged that the regulation in respect of letter carrier service be reduced from 2,500 to some lower figure. It is difficult to assess the exact result in a case like that, but I would suggest-


Mr. Thomas:: I rise on a question of privilege. The minister said the hon. member from Middlesex East. I think he meant the member for Middlesex West.


William McLean Hamilton: Middlesex West is right. We have a hurried estimate in this regard, and have arrived at the conclusion that if we dropped our limit to 2,000 we would incorporate probably 30 90205-6-243
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to 35 communities. The cost involved there alone would be somewhere between $1 million and $1,500,000. We are not discarding the idea by any manner of means, but when an expenditure of that volume is in prospect I feel it is certainly something deserving further consideration.
The hon. member for Burnaby-Coquitlam seemed to feel that small post offices were being eliminated in order to enlarge metropolitan post offices. This is not done as a matter of policy or choice. It does happen on occasion, when it must be done in the interests of efficient mail service. He criticized the Vancouver tunnel, a favourite subject of his. It was built under the preceding administration. It is not as effective as it was hoped it would be, but it is still a project which will bring savings, paying for its cost in about 20 years, so the presumptions he made in that regard were quite wrong.
The hon. member had much to say about Pitney-Bowes of Canada Limited. I can briefly say that it is not the only company in Canada in the postal meter machine business. There are a number of other machines in operation; Commercial Controls Canada Limited have one, the Friden Calculating Machine Company have another. There is another one called Postalia, and one called Neo-Post. This is not a monopoly field. In so far as we are concerned we rent certain equipment from this company merely because we feel it is cheaper from our point of view than to purchase them.
The hon. member for Port Arthur referred to second class mail rates. There is not much for debate in this regard until we are in possession of the O'Leary commission report. The fact remains, however, that the attitude not only of this government but of the preceding government in regard to second class rates has been that they are a concession designed to encourage the circulation of reading material which otherwise might not be circulated, and to that extent we can see value here. In answering another suggestion of his, I might say there is no doubt the post office has made progress as a result of decentralization.
In respect of progress, I would like to express my own personal appreciation to the president of the Canadian postmasters association who, when he introduced me last night, made the following statement, and I am reading from today's Journal. He is reported as saying:

Mr. Hamilton had done more for his department than any of his predecessors.
I appreciate that remark and commend it to the attention of the hon. member for St. Denis.

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The hon. member for Port Arthur suggested that we stop the passage of newspapers carrying football pool results because there is some connection, at least in his mind, between these football pool results in newspapers and the prohibition against playing the football pools. If we stopped every newspaper that carried news of anything illegal very few newspapers in Canada would move at all.


Douglas Mason Fisher: May I ask the minister a question. Has the minister checked as to whether those are advertisements in the newspapers in relation to illegal matters or whether they are published as news? I agree with him if they are published as news, but if they are advertisements, surely they represent an encouragement to an illegal enterprise.


William McLean Hamilton: will deal with that question later if the hon. member wishes. However, our view is that we cannot check individual advertisements in newspapers. We are not censors; that is the point I am making in this connection.
Finally the member for Port Arthur referred to the advertising of a certain type of commodity. This, of course, relates, as does everything we do, to whether it is legal or illegal in the eyes of the law. In this particular case the actions of one of the companies are under judicial review at the moment, and I think I would be getting into dangerous territory if I discussed this subject now.
The hon. member for Edmonton West urged that some consideration be given to providing carrier service in new subdivisions. I can only say to him that I feel we have gone a long way in this direction in recent years. We no longer require that there be sidewalks as such, but require only satisfactory walking conditions on a year-round basis. We do not even require that the streets be paved.
The hon. member for Kootenay West asks for assurance that there is no overlapping or duplication between the engineering and development branches of the Post Office Department and the Department of Public Works. I certainly can give him that assurance without hesitation. That hon. member raised a number of other questions which I will deal with perhaps in correspondence, because I feel they are detailed and of interest primarily to him.
The hon. member for Trinity-Conception was worried about wages paid in St. John's, Newfoundland, at Christmas time. Perhaps the most satisfactory answer is that the dollar that was paid there is exactly the same dollar rate which was paid for similar work in other post offices in Canada. We treat our

employees in St. John's on the same basis as we treat employees in any other area. Because I have great love for the hon. member for Trinity-Conception I treat him sometimes a little better than others.
The hon. member for Timiskaming inquired about examinations for grade III individuals in our district offices. Perhaps the short answer to that question is there are no examinations for grade III individuals in district offices. Those of our employees who do have to take examinations in regard to their distribution knowledge must procure their own equipment. This equipment is not particularly costly, but the introduction of it for our employees in Canada would cost something over $50,000. We have not discarded that idea entirely; as a matter of fact we have it under review at the present time.
The hon. member also asked about our intentions with respect to highway post offices. We have no expectation at the moment of entering into the field of highway post offices. There are two reasons for this. First, we find that our existing system of highway services using trucks on which the mail is carried but not sorted is eminently successful. Second, we have noticed with great interest that the United States, which entered this field on a fairly extensive basis, is now in the process of drawing back and eliminating a great many of its highway post offices. In addition, to the best of our knowledge they have no plans for the building of any new vehicles or anything of that kind.
The hon. member asked about the reduction in railway post offices, those that travel along the rails. I remind him that we do not eliminate railway post offices by choice. We have been forced into it by the advent of the rail diesel car and changed services of the railways which leave us no other course. As of the 31st of March in each of the following years, the number of railway post offices in operation was as follows: in 1957, 126; in 1958, 108; in 1959, 96; in 1960, 78 and in 1961, 65. It seems to be bottoming out somewhat but generally speaking we have no other choice in this field when the railways reduce their services.


Jacques Flynn: I am sorry to interrupt the minister but his time has expired. Is it agreed that he may carry on?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


William McLean Hamilton: will only be about two minutes more and I am grateful to hon. members for their consideration. The hon. member for Westmorland referred to letter carrier service. When we introduce letter carrier service and make it available to a community we require that at least 80 per cent of the houses be equipped

with mail boxes, numbers on the front doors and so on. He suggested that the requirement be reduced to 65 per cent. When I came into the picture the requirement was actually 90 per cent and the point he raised applied then. A small portion of a community could deprive the entire community of letter carrier service, but 80 per cent seems to be about right. In most cases we can get the service into operation within a few weeks of its announcement. If we drop below that percentage very much, say to 65 per cent as he suggested, we are going to have the letter carrier bringing back to the post office about 35 per cent of the mail he takes out. This, of course, is not a satisfactory situation.
Many other points were raised which in almost every case involved details. If it is agreeable, I should like to follow the practice of previous years, one which I introduced, of giving the member concerned a lot of information in the form of a letter directly to the member. Otherwise we could take more time in the committee than hon. members would perhaps like to see taken on these matters. On the other hand, if a member wants to pursue on the floor of the house any particular matter that is of interest to him, I am ready, the officials are in the gallery, and we will certainly do everything we possibly can to try to assist hon. members.


Jean-Thomas Richard: Mr. Chairman, my remarks will be brief. A while ago I heard the minister state how concerned he was about the welfare of the employees in the post offices and I should like to deal with one matter relating to the Ottawa post office. As the minister knows, in other large cities such as Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver the senior employees work the day shifts and those junior to them work the evening and night shifts. The employees of the Ottawa post office have voted three times on this matter. The votes were not suggested by the employees themselves but were requested by the department. The circular relating to the matter says that the decision is to be based on the preference of the majority of the employees.
As I stated, there have been three votes in Ottawa in favour of the senior men having the day shift and the juniors the evening and night shifts just as is the case in all other large cities. For some reason or other, however, the department has refused to abide by the decision. I think this is rather unfair, and the reasons invoked by the department are not very good. Some suggestion was made that everybody did not vote. I suppose it is questionable whether some of us would be sitting in this chamber if everybody in our ridings voted.
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In the last vote held I believe that some of the employees were reluctant to vote because there was a number at the top of each ballot and they thought this had something to do with identifying them and how they would vote. In any event, a large number of the employees voted in favour of the junior men taking the night shifts and the senior men the day shift. As the minister suggested, the heavier and harder work is done at night. In any event, I think it is only fair that the same treatment should be accorded to employees in Ottawa as to employees in Montreal, Vancouver, Winnipeg and other places. I simply bring this matter to the attention of the minister in a nice way. I am not criticizing anybody. I think there is an oversight somewhere. It may be that the matter is being held up by a supervisor or a few employees who do not like the system but I think the majority should rule.


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: quite agree with the hon. member and I will first look into the matter myself. As I am in Ottawa I can do that. We will see what the situation is and if we can meet the wishes of the employees in matters like this and there are no good reasons for not doing so we will certainly do so.


Mr. Peters:: Mr. Chairman, I should like to advise the committee that I wrongly informed hon. members the other day, as found on page 3686 of Hansard, in relation to the examinations taken by clerks. I obtained my knowledge of the matter recently and I believe that the minister was not fair to those who are interested in this matter by making the references he did as he was probably well aware that I was referring to grade IV and not grade III clerks. Grade I, grade II and grade IV clerks take these examinations but grade III clerks do not. The remarks and suggestions I made at that time related to grade IV clerks.
I have since made inquiries and I find that these examinations are not nearly as simple a matter as might be thought at first. I talked to an employee the other day who told me that originally three or four hundred hours are involved in learning the procedure and therefore, particularly in the sorting section, this is not a simple examination. While it is true that it may take only 20 or 30 hours a year for a man to keep up to date, three or four hundred hours of work are involved in the first instance and the remuneration of $150 semi-annually is not a very large amount of money to compensate for the extra training they have to undergo.
I have already read to the committee an extract from the Northern News of March 14,

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1961 and referred to certain letters that are applicable to the matter in question. The other day one hon. member asked me about this matter but unfortunately he is not here now. I told him that when I went home over the week end I would see the reporter. I said I had received telephone calls from Toronto because of the communication that had been sent to the Telegram by the staff reporter. I spoke to the editor of the Telegram and made known certain views that I hold with respect to this matter. I told the hon. member who asked me for confirmation of what I had said that I would see the reporter in question and would get a copy of the communication for his information.
I am not in any position to find anything in the Telegram. I seldom read that particular daily newspaper. I am told there are several editions of it published to cover various areas. 1 have been assured by the reporter from the Toronto Telegram that this item, at least in part, appeared in the newspaper that day.
May I say that I was surprised at the strength and vigour exhibited by the minister in pursuing this matter. I was surprised also at something else. I give him much less credit than I thought I would have to give him in respect of the question I asked him in relation to the establishment of post offices. I am still curious about this. Was I wrong in my supposition that before a post office is established experts are sent to assess the situation; that the Postmaster General receives briefs from various organizations demanding this type of service, either through an M.P. or some other means? Is it not true that the minister has these people who go to assess the situation from the point of view of the mailing facilities that are available and the financial arrangements that may be necessary before an office can be established? I feel it is more important to have a statement that this is the course followed than to have a strong disavowal that patronage is taking place. People are interested in learning just how to go about getting a post office. Many of them are of the opinion that patronage is the only method of obtaining this service.
I shall read the copy of the telegram.
Ontario Northland Communications Telegram
Haileybury (March 14, Ray De Souza)-A federal milding for Haileybury? A department of public works or an unemployment insurance commission branch here?
These are the things which C. Foster Rice, Timiskaming's defeated Progressive Conservative candidate in the late federal election is willing to take up with Ottawa. However, he wants letters from the Haileybury chamber of commerce and town council to back him up on his trip to the capital.
Last night council unanimously approved a resolution calling on town clerk Frank Haskett to

request Mr. Rice to pursue the matter of obtaining a federal building for Haileybury.
Councillor Mary Lavigne said the new building if erected here could house a post office and possibly a department of public works as well as a branch office of the unemployment insurance commission.
Mayor Arthur H. Cooke, councillor Ben Budgeon and Mr. Lavigne confirmed they had been advised by national P.C. organizer Grosart to deal with the federal government through the defeated Conservative candidate rather than through Arnold Peters, C.C.F. member of parliament for Timis-kaming.
Councillor Ken Buflam thought Mr. Peters was due for some courtesy in the matter as a sitting member.
"It might be simpler to get in through the back door," Mr. Lavigne stated. "Mr. Peters handling the matter might do us more harm than good."
"Here we have a riding lost by 210 votes," the mayor commented. "All we have to do is what has been recommended."
Mr. Rice recently unsuccessfully sought action from government on waterfront improvements at Haileybury. Mr. Cooke said the government did nothing about the defeated P.C. candidate's request then.
Council did not authorize Mr. Haskett to forward a copy of the resolution to Mr. Peters.
I did not make my statement nearly as strong as this telegram because I was making it from reports that I had heard. However, I would ask, who is Mr. Grosart? What authority has he got to go around the country telling people to disregard the democratic processes that are involved in this matter? Is Mr. Grosart the man who runs the Post Office Department? I think we already have had the answer of the Postmaster General who has O.K.'d this post office. What we are asking now is, does he O.K. what Mr. Grosart says or does he O.K. the establishment of a post office because certain prerequisite conditions have been met?
I have no objection, Mr. Chairman, to Mr. Rice coming to Ottawa and asking for anything he can get for my constituency and his friends in that riding. We are both residents of that riding and we both want to get as much as possible for it. I have not really any objection to the town council doing what they wish. However, Mr. Chairman, the situation in the town of Haileybury is a disgrace. We are renting a post office in that town which I do not think is a credit to any town one quarter the size of Haileybury. The town of Haileybury is an up and coming community, and I believe it has a right to expect a much better post office than it has.
Let me relate what has happened with regard to the post office in Haileybury. A number of years ago the postmaster in that town was a gentleman by the name of Hamilton. When Mr. Hamilton died his estate took over the property that belonged to him, namely the post office. The Hamilton estate sold the post office to a Mr. Cooke who is

now the postmaster but he has no qualifications whatever for operating a post office. He has a staff of three who operate the office. I am told that Mr. Cooke has no formal training and does not have to take an examination before receiving an appointment as his employees do.
Mr. Cooke is also the mayor of the town. It is not surprising to me that Mr. Cooke has never written to me, as his federal member of parliament, on behalf of the council requesting a new post office because if the town of Haileybury gets a new post office he probably will not be the postmaster. He will be no longer renting the building to the postal department, a fact which gives him the opportunity of being the postmaster. I do not want it to be said that I am opposed to Mr. Cooke himself, and I can see that this type of arrangement has some advantages to it. However, I do not believe it is an arrangement that should be perpetuated.
I have in my hand a copy of a civil service circular which gives notice that a postmaster is required at Elk Lake, Ontario. Under the heading "Qualifications", there is a note to the effect that the postmaster will be required to provide the necessary postal premises. Second, the successful candidate will not be required to give his constant attention to the duties of the position. Unlike the situation to which the Postmaster General referred a few minutes ago, this job will allow him to operate his bakery on almost a full-time basis and he will also be able to operate the post office. The Postmaster General does not need to worry because there is not a bakery that large in the town of Elk Lake. However, we seem to be perpetuating a situation that is causing a great deal of difficulty in the Haileybury area.
I think one of the problems that may be involved here may be the fact that the citizens themselves have been so badly misinformed in the past by the politicians. Certainly, they are being misinformed by Mr. Grosart at the present time. In my opinion, Mr. Grosart should not be in a position to speak for the Postmaster General and make this kind of commitment. Misinformation is going out to the effect that post offices are obtained by means of political patronage. I think I agree with the Postmaster General, and I hope this is his opinion, that post offices are not obtained in this manner. Certain conditions have to be met, and political considerations are not a factor. If this is not true, then this civil service circular to which I have referred should not be sent out by the civil service commission but should be sent out by the defeated candidate. The defeated candidate would be able to appoint the postmaster in this particular town.
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I have no reason not to believe that political patronage, in that old fashioned sense, is gone from these appointments. I think this sort of thing is a disservice when we put a man in as head of a municipality. Here are three councillors and the reeve of the municipality who have met with the national organizer of the Conservative party and have been told these things. They obviously are going to take his word because he is from out of town. He also gave them, I am sure, certain assurances. They are going to take his word and this is the word that is going to be distributed and disseminated throughout the area, namely that these things are accomplished in this manner.
I raise this matter only because it seems to me that in this regard democracy can be ill served and that the ends of justice that are inherent in democracy cannot be served if this type of talk is not stopped, and it is not patronage; it is only talk. If this kind of suggestion is not removed from our political scene, then if we look the other way and do not mention it, we are doing a disservice to the cause of democracy that is almost as great as the disservice done by these people that are promising it.
I should like the Postmaster General to rise in his place and indicate just what method will have to be followed in the case of Haileybury if they are going to receive favourable consideration in respect of a post office in that town.


William McLean Hamilton: May
I answer the hon. member very briefly. I say first that any suggestion that Mr. Grosart or anyone influences the department in its decisions is completely unfounded. Certainly if Haileybury or any other town feels that they would like a post office, let them write to the department and we shall be delighted to go into the matter with them. The probability is that in most cases, as many communities know to their satisfaction, before they get around to writing we will already be in there in co-operation with the Department of Public Works and building a post office.


Mr. Granger:: I listened with great interest to the comments of the minister. I am sure he will bear with me if I mention two matters which really are not new to him but which cause some of us a good deal of concern. One is the matter of salaries paid to postmasters and postmistresses in some of the small communities in Newfoundland. I am thinking of course, of the small communities in my own district of Grand Falls-White Bay-Labrador.
I readily agree that the revenue in these post offices is small and that if the salary is based upon the revenue, then the salary must of necessity be small. I think, however,

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that below a certain sum salaries should cease to be the yardstick and that service should then be the means of measuring remuneration. Postmasters and postmistresses are necessary even in small places. The work takes a considerable portion of their time. It demands their presence in the post office. It means they must find a place to operate the post office business. If they are carrying out an essential service and if the revenue from that service is small, certainly it would be a great mistake to take the sum of that small revenue and use it as a basis for salary. As I said, below a certain level, service should be taken as a yardstick for payment rather than revenue. In other words what I am pleading for is a minimum wage for postmasters and postmistresses.
The other point I wish to make is in connection with mail service in northern Newfoundland in what I might generally refer to as the St. Anthony area. During the winter the service is faster than it is in summer because the air mail service is satisfactory and gives a much more regular and rapid service than that which is given in the summer time when the mail is carried by ship. During the season-shall I say the shipping season-when the post offices are served by the coastal steamers, mail deliveries are infrequent. I am told that it is not unusual for a period of two weeks to elapse between the time a letter is mailed and the time it is received. I refer to a letter, say, from the mainland. It would not take very long to get from here to Newfoundland by air but the time is used up by the slow steamship service.
This is a matter which I have brought to the attention of the minister and I agree with him that an air mail service all the year around is expensive. What I wanted to suggest now is that he might consider a limited air mail service during the summer months for first class mail only with a limited number of flights. I am sure that this procedure would improve the service. It could be the case that the cost may be out of proportion to the service rendered, but such a service is really necessary. I should like the minister to give this matter consideration, and I will limit my request to the possibility of a limited service confined to first class mail by air in the northern communities of Newfoundland.
In conclusion I should like to thank the minister for his program of sending mail by road and, wherever possible, with greater frequency or more mails per week. I know that in a number of places which ask that services be increased from one mail to two or three mails per week, it has been done. In
[Mr. Granger.!
thanking the minister I would express the hope that he will continue to pursue that program and enlarge it.


Mr. McCleave:: Very briefly, Mr. Chairman, I should like to mention something that the minister could perhaps mull over for the next two years and give an answer say in 1963. With the approach of confederation centennial ceremonies in 1967, it strikes me from perhaps a limited study, that there is only one real opportunity available to commemorate higher education in this country during that time. The year 1964 will be the 175th anniversary of the founding of the oldest university in the commonwealth. I refer to the University of King's College in Halifax. While 175 may not be as convenient an anniversary as say 200 or even 100, nevertheless I think it would be most fitting if the Postmaster General could at least consider the suggestion that one of his excellently designed fine stamps be issued to pay homage to higher education in this country. I therefore turn his thoughts to a fine ancient and honoured institution in my own riding of Halifax.


Mr. Carter:: The Postmaster General did not reply to some of the questions I asked the other day. They were not personal questions. I thought they were questions of general interest and I am going to repeat them. But before I do so I want to reply to some of the things the minister said this afternoon in replying to criticisms that have been made of his estimates.
The Postmaster General said that one of the chief criticisms that had been levelled at him was for having pride in his department. I do not think anybody would criticize the minister for being proud of his department. We all pay tribute to the staff of the post office and their dedication to their various duties.
I think most hon. members criticize the fact that the Postmaster General perhaps seemed inclined to take a little too much credit unto himself rather than give it to the staff of the post office. As I listened to his performance I thought he was inclined to be a little truculent and at times was perhaps talking with his tongue a little bit in his cheek.
We do not take exception to that. I think this helps to liven our procedure. However, I do not think the Postmaster General should take too much exception to that kind of criticism. We want to assure the Postmaster General that we are all proud of the post office. We are all proud of his staff and their achievements. However, we do not want

the Postmaster General to create the impression that the post office came into existence when he took over two or three years ago.


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: That is very good.


Chesley William Carter: I think that is implied in some of the remarks made by the Postmaster General in reply to the statements of the hon. member for St. Denis. He labelled the hon. member for St. Denis and the Liberal party with being against progress. He said we are the people who want to go back to the system of delivering mail on foot and manually cancelling the stamps one at a time, and all these other crazy things.


William McLean Hamilton: That is what the hon. member said.


Chesley William Carter: The Postmaster General represents a party that has entered the electronic age and gone up into outer space along with the Russian astronaut. However, mechanization did not begin with this Postmaster General coming into office. It did not begin with the Tory party. It has been going on in the post office, as a gradual development, ever since the post office was created.
Progress was made under the Liberal regime and I am glad to see it being continued. However, we do not want the Postmaster General to try and create the impression in the country and in this house that there was no progress under the Liberal party and the only progress has taken place during the past two or three years while he has been administering the Post Office Department.
If the Postmaster General had listened to his remarks today as I was listening to them he would have received exactly the same impression as I, that here again he was not being completely non-partisan in the way he was replying to our criticisms.
We can tolerate a little political give and take on this matter, but the Postmaster General must realize there is a limit to it. I think if he will take the trouble tomorrow to read what appears in Hansard-although in cold print it will be very different from the way it appeared when we listened to the spoken word-he will get the impression that he was guilty of the very exaggerations and excesses for which he criticized the hon. member for St. Denis in his speech the other day. In that respect the Postmaster General is perhaps the pot calling the kettle black.


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: We are making progress. Which is the hon. member for St. Denis, the pot or the kettle?


Chesley William Carter: I asked the Postmaster General two or three questions and he did not
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bother to reply. Perhaps he thought they were not important enough. They were not questions which applied specifically to my own riding; they were general questions which I thought would be of interest to the public at large.
One of those questions was: which was the most profitable to the post office from the standpoint of net revenue, the selling of postage stamps or the use of postage meters? I think that is a general question, because from the report we received it appears that the revenue from postal meters is increasing at such a rate that it is perhaps equal to, or even in excess of the revenue from the sale of postage stamps. If there is more expense in-


William McLean Hamilton: Let
us stop this discussion. I will tell you right now. It is postal meters.


Chesley William Carter: All right. I asked that question but the minister did not see fit to make any reference to it. I asked another question in connection with the list of special categories. There was quite an increase for transportation of mail by land, air and sea. My question in relation to this matter was: was this increase due to more contracts, or to contracts that had been renewed at higher rates? That was also a question of public interest.
I asked one question to which perhaps the minister might wish to give an individual reply, and I would not press him to answer it in this committee. I refer to the question I raised with regard to putting out a special stamp issue for Christmas. Many prominent people in my province are interested in this matter and I hope the Postmaster General will give it favourable consideration.
After we had a chance to read and study what the Postmaster General said when introducing his estimates we of course were in a better position to ask questions. I think the Postmaster General not only fired our imagination but aroused our curiosity when he told us about the advent of these electronic, automatic mail handling machines.
I should like to ask several questions in connection with this matter. The first one is this: how much money has the Post Office Department invested in the development of this kind of equipment? My second question is: assuming that the equipment passes the test and becomes available, under what conditions does it become available to the post office, and under what conditions will it be manufactured? I ask this question because one can readily understand that this is a very special type of equipment with a very limited market and it is quite possible that its manufacture and distribution could be

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monopolized by a particular firm. I should like full details with respect to the whole procedure of developing and acquiring this kind of automatic, electronic equipment.
The Postmaster General told us the other day that 100,000 firms in Canada were now receiving twice a day delivery. That is fine. We hope it may be extended. However, I think most hon. members would like to have an answer to this question: on what basis are these 100,000 firms selected? Where does the Post Office Department draw the line between firms which rate two deliveries of mail a day and firms which rate only one delivery a day? These are all the points I wish to make at the present time, Mr. Chairman, but I will probably have other comments to make later on.
(Translation):


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Mr. Chairman, first of all I must tell the minister that the hon. member for St. Denis (Mr. Denis) could not be present this afternoon. He is the first to regret his absence, no doubt.
It is particularly unfortunate that the minister showed himself not only so cruel but so unfair toward the hon. member for St. Denis. Allow me to show at once in what way the minister was unfair in his remarks regarding the member for St. Denis. He said, in French and in English, that in the speech he made last week, the member for St. Denis stated the following:
I am all for progress, but I am against it-
And the minister suggested that the member for St. Denis would be the laughing stock of everybody for saying such a thing.
If we refer to page 3640 of Hansard for April 13, we note that the minister has been unfair to the member for St. Denis in that he did not quote the whole sentence. Here, in fact, is the textual quotation as it appears in Hansard:
I am all for progress, but I am against it when it is introduced at the expense of the human element, particularly in times of unemployment.
That is something else. I shall come back later to the matter of mechanization, but I fully endorse what the member for St. Denis had to say on this subject.
If the Postmaster General is so confident of the position he is taking in these difficult times to step up mechanization in the postal service to the extent of creating unemployment instead of providing jobs, as he should be doing with a greater volume of business, I am sure that on a matter of principle of such importance, at a time when the government, the first employer in the country, should be setting an example for private industry,

the hon. member for St. Denis, myself, or any other member of the island of Montreal, would be delighted during the next election campaign, to meet the Postmaster General in the riding of his choice, and we shall then leave it to the voters to settle the matter.
Now, Mr. Chairman, the member for St. Denis is one of the most assiduous members in this house. I think he is celebrating this year the 25th anniversary of his election as a member, and since the second session of 1957 especially, he has shown a tremendous interest in the Post Office Department, never failing to raise matters of very great importance pertaining to that department. He has also made very interesting suggestions.
In my opinion, the speech delivered last week by the hon. member for St. Denis was remarkable; it was a speech that dismayed the Postmaster General, and the minister vainly tried today to minimize its impact.
Mr. Chairman, one may not particularly relish the sense of humour displayed by the hon. member for St. Denis when he is being critical, but if we had more members like him in this house, more members with the humour and the engaging personality of the hon. member for St. Denis, it would afford relief from the attitude of certain government members who, unfortunately, are always down in the mouth. I fail to see what the Postmaster General could gain for himself in trying to minimize a speech replete with figures and facts that are unquestioned.


William McLean Hamilton: Erroneous.


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for St. Denis-


William McLean Hamilton: He was wrong.


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: -gave facts and figures, and I would greatly appreciate it if the minister replied to this after a while. If those figures and those facts were erroneous, why did not the minister stand up at the time and ask the hon. member what was the basis for those facts and figures? The hon. member for St. Denis would then have been very pleased to inform the minister who seems to be quite unaware of some of the things that happen in his department.


William McLean Hamilton: I wanted to ask questions, but the hon. member for St. Denis asked me to wait till he was finished.


Mr. English:: That is true.


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Mr. Chairman, the minister is right. I was in the house at the time,

but why did not the Postmaster General ask his questions after the member for St. Denis had concluded his remarks? I am sure the hon. member for St. Denis would have considered it a pleasure to reply.
Mr. Chairman, the Postmaster General seems to think we are all being rather hard on him. He has been asking for it. As I said one day, he who sows the wind shall reap the whirlwind. For two or three years, the Postmaster General promised two mail deliveries a day. He promised them even to his constituents in Notre Dame de Grace; yet, he said not a word about it in the statement he made in introducing his estimates. He said not a word about thefts. The member for St. Denis quoted figures which the minister should not be denying. I hope the minister will not force me to read those I have here. I can read them if he wants me to, but I am sure he will not deny them. Those figures show that in the last year, there have been more thefts than in 1957. I hope the minister will not deny this.
With regard to compensation claims for registered mail or insured parcels, the number of claims in 1956-57 was 11,800, as against 13,020 in 1959-60. I do not think the minister will deny these figures. How much money did such compensation claims involve? For 1956-57, $128,202; for 1959-60, $170,134. Some of the money has been recovered; in fact, an amount of $11,281 was recovered in 1956-57, and in 1959-60, the figure was $11,442. Where is the improvement there? These figures cannot be denied.
Mr. Chairman, I raised no objection when the minister told us a moment ago that the publication about which the hon. member for St. Denis raised such a fuss had been translated into French. I cannot say, I have never received it. The hon. member for St. Denis has not received it, nor have I, nor has the member for Papineau (Mr. Meunier). We did get the English version, and that is what the member for St. Denis stated.
With regard to patronage, here is the statement made by the hon. member for St. Denis as recorded on page 3640 of Hansard for April 13:
I will mention two or three cases only, without going into all the details. If the minister wants more details, I am prepared to give them to him.
When did the minister accept the challenge? Never. I too, have dealt briefly with this matter of patronage.
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From 1953 to 1957, how many casual employees were dismissed following the discovery that they were dependent either on their husband or on some other person? So we simply suggested, and again I submit this to the minister's attention, that in the case of casual employees or again in the case of the ladies in the flying squad, why not start by hiring those who are in greatest need? That is the point we have emphasized to the Postmaster General.
Mr. Chairman, turning to automation in the post office, I think the point we raised did some damage to the minister. I also think it really hurt the government, because the government and the minister are now finding that even if automation is desirable in some divisions of the post office, this is not the time to try to develop the most efficient machine in the world, a machine whose immediate effect would be to create unemployment.
We have repeated time and again that the government is the biggest employer and must set the example for industry. How often have we said to industrialists:	Even if you
have work for certain employees, you must support the employment campaign. Keep those men on the job, and in this way try to cut down a bit on the amount of hardship that is being felt today.
The government and the Postmaster General now feel that they made a mistake when they promoted this mechanization. Let us take the case, for instance, of the electronic sorting machine-and I hope the minister will have a word to say about that-how much money, so far, was spent on experimenting with this device? If the machine is finally put into service, as the minister hopes it will, we will see then that it will cause unemployment.
I will add this: in my remarks I said a few words about the usefulness of that machine, which has not yet been put into service. I told the Postmaster General that the machine, that electronic letter sorter, might not be used for more than 15 or 20 per cent of the letters being handled by the post offices.


Mr. Tremblay:: What does he know about it?


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: My hon. friend is asking what I know about it. Well, unlike the minister, I am stating a fact. The minister is here, and I am telling him, I am asking him-


Léonard-David Sweezey Tremblay: This is an allegation; it is not a fact. It is a hypothesis.

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Jean-Paul Deschatelets: If my hon. friend wishes to make a speech, let him go ahead and do it. If he has comments to make for my benefit, I will yield him the floor then reply to him afterwards. However, I possibly have less patience than my hon. friend the member for Laurier (Mr. Chevrier), and I certainly do not like anyone who speaks in my back When I am up front.


Léonard-David Sweezey Tremblay: Back or front, it is not-


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Mr. Chairman, if you would put a stop to this yapping of the member for Roberval, I would highly appreciate it.
Mr. Chairman, I do not intend to go any further for the time being. I think I have answered some of the minister's allegations, and I am genuinely sorry that his remarks were directed at the member for St. Denis (Mr. Denis) instead of dealing with the suggestions and constructive criticism the latter made.


Mr. Pigeon:: Mr. Chairman, I should like to put a question to the member for Maison-neuve-Rosemont (Mr. Deschatelets), if he will permit.
The hon. member for Maisonneuve-Rose-mont is against mechanization and improvement. Is he in favour of going back to the horse and buggy in the field of transportation?


Léonard-David Sweezey Tremblay: He might suggest mechanizing the brain of the member for St. Denis.


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Mr. Chairman, I am very glad that the member for Joliette-L'Assomp-tion-Montcalm (Mr. Pigeon) has asked me this question. How many times will we have to explain the stand we have taken, so that the government members can clearly understand it?


Léonard-David Sweezey Tremblay: Say that without laughing.


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: We said we advocate mechanization in the postal services where mechanization can be useful, but we specified that, at this time, on account of unemployment, we have no money to spend on the development of electronic devices whose introduction would bring about more unemployment. Besides, I have challenged the minister on this question, and I hope he will take it up early enough for the next election.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: I thank the hon. member. (Text):


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Chairman, I would like to say that I listened with interest to the minister's comments with respect to the criticisms and favourable comments made by

members of the opposition. I look forward to his answering one or two questions relating particularly to my constituency by mail, as he indicated he would. However, I rise at this time again because I wish to refer to the minister's positive assurance that the appointment at the Trail post office to which I referred earlier, was made by the civil service commission completely devoid of patronage. I have no knowledge of the circumstances, but when I returned to my constituency I was asked by a number of people to raise this question in the House of Commons. Those individuals are convinced that this was a patronage appointment because the person in question happens to be the wife of the former campaign manager of a defeated Conservative candidate. These individuals include supporters of all parties, and some are veterans. I assured them I would raise this question in this house. I want to be fair, as I always try to be, but I do want to get the facts so that I will be in a position to convey them to those individuals.
I would like the minister to inform me as to the number of applications that were made to the civil service commission in respect to this position; if the veterans' preference was applicable, and the names and marks received by these various applicants. I would also like to know whether any of those applicants were recommended by parties or organizations.
I ask for this information because when I returned to my home I found that this was a matter of current interest, and assured those interested I would raise the matter in the house and get the facts.


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: Dealing with the last question first, I would say that according to our records the only female employee taken on since 1957, either as a full-time, part-time, or casual employee, is Mrs. Mary Margaret Bride. Perhaps that is the lady the hon. member is referring to.


Mr.. Herridge:: That is not the name given to me.


William McLean Hamilton: She
was employed on June 16, 1959 in a regular position of temporary postal clerk, II. She qualified by civil service commission examination for postal clerk, competition No. 57-Y1059 and ranked third on the eligible list. This was a recent appointment from a civil service eligible list under which all aspects of the merit system were taken into consideration. This is all the information we have on the matter. Beyond that, it is a matter between the civil service commission and the hon. member, but I do point out to him this one fact.

We cannot exclude Conservative supporters from every position in the government service just because they happen to have supported this party at one time or another during our history and simply restrict our appointments to Liberals and C.C.F.'ers. As I understand it, that is the argument the hon. member has been making. He said that this was a terrible appointment because the lady happened to be a Conservative. I do not intend to see anyone in this country discriminated against in their desire to obtain employment from the government. Personally I am not going to discriminate against Liberals or socialists but I can assure the hon. member I am not going to discriminate against Conservatives either.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: In reply may I say that the minister knows that we in this group would not suggest that only supporters of certain parties should be appointed. We want all Canadians to have equal treatment regardless of their political affiliation and it is absurd to suggest that we would criticize the appointment of Conservatives. With regard to other appointments I might say that supporters of his own party have come to me about them. I think the minister does not have the full facts. The name given to me is a Mrs. George, not the name mentioned by the minister, and I understand it is quite a recent appointment.
The people who came to me were convinced that this was a patronage appointment. I do not think the minister has been kept up to date or I have been misinformed and I question that because of the number of people who have spoken to me about this matter. I would not want the minister to suggest for a minute that we would not agree to equal treatment for all persons no matter what party they support. I think the minister was rather twisting the facts when he said that. A Conservative has a right to live as much as a C.C.F.'er or anybody else.


William McLean Hamilton: will look into the matter. Now that the hon. member has given us a name after two days of discussion and two speeches we will be able to do something. We will be able to go into the matter further. We spent a great deal of time getting the information I have given merely because the hon. member did not give us the name. What I had in mind was the remark he made which I picked up. I believe it will appear in Hansard in almost these exact words, that this person was the wife of the campaign manager for the local Conservative candidate and therefore these people think this is a patronage appointment. As far as I can see, this is an argument that has no foundation whatsoever. What I understood the hon. member to say was that
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every time a Conservative is appointed it must be a patronage appointment and every time a Liberal or a C.C.F.'er is appointed it is white as the driven snow.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: That is nonsense.


William McLean Hamilton: think it is nonsense too-


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: You are talking nonsense.


William McLean Hamilton: -but
that was the gist of the hon. member's remarks. To answer very briefly the questions which have been raised by the hon. member for Grand Falls-White Bay-Labrador, may I say that we will be glad to have a look at the possibility of air service in various parts of Newfoundland as suggested by him. I am not at all hopeful it can be brought about because of the economics of the situation but we always like to explore new ideas. The hon. member suggested that the minimum wages of postmasters should be increased. We are not paying our people to any great extent now on the basis of the revenue of the post office but rather on the volume of business that is done, both incoming and outgoing mail and many other factors. Where you have an office handling 10 or 15 letters a week and only three or four people patronizing the office, it is a little difficult to expect that the postmaster should be paid $3,000 or $4,000 a year, which is the logical outcome of some of the arguments advanced.
I have noticed that our revenue postmasters across the country, particularly in the lower brackets about which hon. members tend to complain most, now feel that their remuneration is consonant with the amount of work they do. Any criticism I have heard from people who know in detail what they are talking about because of personal experience has to do with other ranges of postmasters, not those in the lower brackets. We will be glad to consider the possibility of a stamp for King's college. We are always grateful for any suggestions.
The hon. member for Burin-Burgeo was after me again about my taking pride in the department. I know a lot about the department, and the more I know the prouder I am. Perhaps that is the difference between myself and the previous ministers who were not quite so closely in touch with the postal people across the country and were not quite so imbued with a spirit of pride in the department. 1 am sorry if the hon. member has misinterpreted the attitude I have taken but I am proud of what the department has done and I am going to go on saying so.


Paul Joseph James Martin: A wonderful foundation was laid for the minister by the former minister.

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William McLean Hamilton: foundation of sorts was laid and I think it does great credit to us that we have built such a marvellous superstructure without the building falling down because of the quality of the foundation. The hon. member complained that I had not answered all his questions so I will try to pick up one or two. He referred to the electronic machines. First of the electronic sorting machine developed we have paid a total of $3.8 million for our electronic sorting machines. We control the machine completely in every way, including the patents which go into it, and no one else determines how these machines can be manufactured, to whom they will be made available or any other consideration. I speak now of the electronic sorting machine developed by the Canadian Post Office Department.
We also have an informal understanding with the postal administrations of the United Kingdom and the United States whereby equipment they have or we have can be interchanged between the three of us. One experience we have had in that field has to do with the equipment that is going into the Winnipeg office early next year for segregating and cancelling purposes. It was purchased from a private organization in the United Kingdom and in addition to the actual price of the machine there is a small royalty which is designed to recompense the United Kingdom for some of their development costs. Basically, postal equipment is available under agreement between the three countries, which makes it possible for any one country to get at it without anyone profiteering.
The hon. member asked about the requirements for two deliveries a day. I think the easiest way to deal with this is to say we have four classes of letter carrier walks. First, there is the residential class which comprises those with less than 25 per cent business calls. In this instance we give one delivery a day to all calls. Second, there are mixed walks, those with 25 per cent to 50 per cent business calls, with regard to which we give twice a day delivery to the businesses and once a day to the residences. Third, there are the business walks, those with over 50 per cent business calls. In this case we give two deliveries per day to businesses-sometimes more if the volume of mail warrants it-and once a day delivery to residences. Then, we have, finally, the residential-business type of walk which we develop when it is in the interests of improved postal service to business. With this multiple delivery walk we are able to serve businesses twice a day and residences once. I think that perhaps answers this question.
The hon. member for Maisonneuve-Rose-mont made some interesting observations on

my earlier speech. I am not going to debate the details with him. We are planning ahead. We are not in the process-this is a criticism which can justly be made of the introduction of automation-of jamming in machines and equipment at a great rate without consideration for the interests and needs or the permanency of the jobs of our employees. We do not take the view expressed by the hon. member for St. Denis, however, that we must not think about progress in automation so long as there is any question of unemployment. Over the last year our actual employment in the post office has increased by something over 700 people. I have no doubt it will increase, year by year, because of the tremendous increase in the volume of mail.
If we are going to give the service we want to give, we will have to introduce mechanization and automation. My own, personal view which I expressed some time ago-it looks as though we will not be too far away from it- is that it will take about five years to develop our equipment and machines, the really complicated part of them, to the point where the machine is ready to go into a post office on a day to day basis. Then, I believe it will take us about another five years to introduce the machine into those offices across the country which can handle it without any dislocation of staff.
I should like the hon. member to remember that we have a turnover in the Post Office Department. It is regrettable, but people reach retirement or they decide to go to other work. Sometimes they even die. This represents, speaking from memory, about 7 to 12 per cent of our staff. There is an opportunity here to install automation, equipment and machinery, without replacing all the people who drop out of the service. I can say to the hon. member that beyond any shadow of a doubt, so long as I am Postmaster General there is going to be no permanent postal employee who is going to be discharged or released because of the advent of machinery, automation or advanced methods. There is ample opportunity to do the things we want to do without that sort of thing.
(Translation):


Mr. Meunier:: Mr. Chairman, I would not like to repeat what the previous speakers said. However, I should like to make a few remarks to the Postmaster General (Mr. Hamilton). As we know, the minister is very strict, both for himself and for others. This afternoon, he tried to belittle the hon. member for St. Denis (Mr. Denis) in saying that the latter made a humorous speech, implying that he was perhaps irresponsible.

I must say to the Postmaster General that the hon. member for St. Denis made very timely remarks in his speech.
He was severe, as the Postmaster General used to be when he was sitting on this side of the house and criticized his opponents.
The hon. member for St. Denis has an innate sense of humour. We cannot, like the Postmaster General, be at the same time serene and always gloomy. I do hope the Postmaster General will not be too severe on his opponents. Let him judge them as they are, and let him also appraise their remarks and arguments.
The Postmaster General has attributed to the hon. member for St. Denis remarks which would imply that he is against automation.
I would point out to the Postmaster General that, as recorded on page 3639 of the English version of Hansard, of April 13, the hon. member did not say he was opposed to automation. He said:
As far as the special training which our citizens should have in order to face the automation era, if our workers are not ready to use automatic machines, it is up to the minister not to step up automation excessively.
Later, the hon. member for St. Denis stated:
I simply suggest that he wait until the number of unemployed in this country regresses before he replaces people by machines in the Post Office Department.
We know, Mr. Chairman, that those machines are still at the experimental stage.
What the hon. member for St. Denis meant was that no costly experiments should be undertaken at a time when our chief concern should be to provide jobs.
There are some points which the Postmaster General did not touch. I submit that, when he was sitting on this side of the house, each time a theft was committed in a post office he used to ask questions. Two days later, he was still asking who the thieves were. To hear him talk, you would have thought that the minister himself was responsible for those thefts and was not doing all he could to find out who the thieves were.
I would not want to blame the Postmaster General or his officials for all the thefts that are being committed. But, I would point out that human nature does not change, that perfection is not of this world, that thieves are not easy to track down and that the personnel must not be blamed for unsolved thefts, especially when the officials have done all they could to solve them.
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I would not like to be as strict with the Postmaster General as he himself used to be when he was sitting on this side of the house, but I am glad to note that he knows now that he has to take into account the human factor in everything, and that it is not possible to solve all problems, any more than all thefts can be solved.
There is a point that none of my colleagues touched upon but about which the postmaster would wax eloquent when he used to sit on this side of the house, namely the post office savings bank operations. At that time, the Postmaster General would tell us that these operations were detrimental to chartered banks; that they were useless since anyone could do business with the nearby chartered bank. I now find that, since 1957, the number of depositors has increased. Therefore I should like the minister to tell us what he intends to do about the savings bank. Does he now consider it worth while or does he still cling to his previous opinions?
Those are the only remarks I wanted to make, Mr. Chairman. I hope that if the Postmaster General, who is a decent sort, is to leave us soon, as was intimated by the hon. member for Port Arthur (Mr. Fisher), he will get along well with the member for St. Denis who, by then, will hold important office in the government.
(Text):


William McLean Hamilton: should like to answer the one principal question posed by the hon. member, Mr. Chairman. At the moment we are having a good look at the post office savings bank to see whether there might be changes necessary in the areas in which it operates or, in some respects, extensions and, in other respects, a pulling back in order to make it a better operation so far as the government is concerned. However, I still have my own reservations which I expressed previously. The post office savings bank as it was constituted originally has fulfilled the exact purpose for which it was originally intended.


Mr. Crouse:: In rising to speak briefly on the estimates of the Post Office Department I should like to commend the minister for his forward-looking program in providing and building new post offices throughout Canada. Since assuming his portfolio in 1957, great progress has been made in developing these new facilities and this program has met, I am sure, with the genuine approval of all Canadians. Certainly the citizens in my riding have been most appreciative of the new buildings that have been provided.

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In commending the minister on this tor-ward-looking program there is one thought I should like to advance tor his consideration. At the present time, with more and more of our citizens being desirous of moving from the heavily populated cities and towns to the country areas, there is a distinct trend towards developing rural areas. This trend will naturally throw a heavier burden on rural post offices and will certainly constantly increase the additional burdens that are placed on existing rural routes. With this thought in mind I would suggest to the minister that his department give more thought to providing a larger sorting area in the many new post offices that are under construction or at least to having the buildings designed in a manner that will enable them to be more readily enlarged. Under the forward-looking policies of the present Conservative government we know that Canada cannot help developing. I hope the minister will give this proposal consideration for the benefit of present and future Canadians.


Chesley William Carter: May I ask the Postmaster General to clarify one point with regard to the electronic equipment. The Postmaster General said that the post office controlled the patents and the manufacturing of this equipment. Does that mean that the post office has contracts with certain companies to manufacture this equipment? Does the post office now have contracts for making component parts of this equipment and assembling it or is that being done in the post office itself?


William McLean Hamilton: The
hon. member is speaking of only one machine, namely, the pilot model. The short answer is that in the development stage, which is the stage in which we are at the present time, in this case we brought it up to a certain point of development in our own department. We then entered into a contract with Canadair for further work on this machine. I refer to that one single machine. As I stated earlier, we are now coming to the end of that contract. We have obtained the information we want as to the operating capacity of the machine and we are going to review our position. But certainly at the moment we have no commitments of any substantial nature with any company. However, I also say that if the equipment is manufactured, it is certainly going to be manufactured by private industry and not in the Post Office Department.


Walter George Pitman: I should like to ask one or two questions of the Postmaster General. There is very little one can say about this department. I am sure the Postmaster General will recall that the new facilities at
Peterborough achieved a considerable amount of notoriety when the Postmaster General was on this side of the chamber. It arose from the fact that television cameras were being used to check on those who were committing misdemeanors in the post office. I rather had the impression that this was almost the beginning of the Conservative desire for a bill of rights.
This matter achieved a tremendous amount of publicity across Canada. During the consideration of the next estimates in 1958, the minister indicated that this was not a very satisfactory operation. I am sure that the employees certainly welcomed that remark which was made in 1958. I should like to know exactly how much more this device has been used since that time, whether its use has been extended to other post offices or whether there has been a general feeling on the part of the post office that this is not a way in which the human dignity of postal employees can be best guarded.
I was particularly interested in what the Postmaster General had to say with regard to pay increases that have been taking place within the Post Office Department. My main complaint would be not so much with regard to what has been taking place within the department as with regard to contracts that have been let under the Postmaster General's department. I realize that this is not entirely his responsibility but that it is also the responsibility of his colleague the Minister of Labour. However, stage services have been set up in various parts of Canada. In one particular stage service about which I made some inquiries the employees were being exploited, to say the least. In this particular case a man was working as many as six days a week, sometimes from 8 a.m. to 6 p.m. Not throughout the entire period but for some of the time he was working a total of 28 hours a week for $15.
The computation of this $15 was rather interesting. The individual was on unemployment insurance and his pay was related to what he could make, being half of what he could qualify for as a result of the fact that he was getting unemployment insurance. I think this is an unfortunate aspect to the contract. I realize that contractors are paid only what it is reasonable to pay drivers of trucks of equal size in the area. I think this is something that needs to be the subject of more regulation. I am sure the Postmaster General will take into account the possible disadvantage that accrues to a person who becomes associated with the Post Office Department in connection with the stage services.
I was also rather shocked by a letter 1 received to the effect that a person who had

a village post office received a net income of only $82 a month. He had painted and decorated his post office and so on. I think the Postmaster General might be willing to agree that this income is too low. I hope that the pay increase which he has announced will be extended and that there will be some definite attempt to bring the level of pay up to something which would be commensurate with the services being rendered and the responsibility which is being undertaken by the rural postmasters in this country. I would appreciate it if the Postmaster General could make some comments on these remarks.


William McLean Hamilton: First, as to the television cameras in Peterborough, may I say that our general opinion remains the same. We tested them out there. We found that they were not particularly satisfactory. To the best of my knowledge, there are no plans to introduce them further.
As far as tenders are concerned and stage services or rural route services and things of that kind, may I say that we are bound by a definite act of parliament which requires us to accept the lowest satisfactory tender; and "satisfactory" means or merely infers that the man has the necessary equipment and gets a driver's license.


An hon. Member:: And he must be sober.


William McLean Hamilton: Somebody points out that he must also be a sober individual. That is a requirement. In our main services, such as the city services, we do require wages to be paid at the going rate for that type of work in the area.
When you get down into rural routes and stage services, which are really just another variety of a rural route, you find that many of them are carried on by the individuals who perhaps combine the rural route with something else at the same time. I think anything which required a stipulated wage in that field would work to the detriment of most of the tenderers on the rural routes. Therefore there is no wage stipulation in those contracts.
However, certainly wherever a contract is such that we expect people will be employed in in order to carry it out, we have a clause in the contract requiring the payment of the going wage for that area. I think that answers the two points raised by the hon. member for Peterborough.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Mr. Chairman, I should like to preface my few remarks with a little "thank you" to the hon. member for Essex East for doing a little touting for me in the
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job stakes. I think I can locate a job all right; I do not think it will be too difficult, even if it is not in the government service.


William McLean Hamilton: you talk much more we really will think you are touting for the job.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I should tell the hon. member for Essex East that I have been touting him for a job in politics and meeting with a great deal of response across the country. Very many people feel there is a higher post he can hold within his own party.


William McLean Hamilton: Douglas, Argue and Martin; now we have three in the race.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I should like to ask the Postmaster General some questions. He said this is not the time or place for a debate on second class mail rates. However, he did seem to acknowledge that there is a definite subsidy in this area, or that at least in the operations of the Post Office Department one could find the fact that one side of the operations must be subsidizing another side of the operations in terms of costs.
I think we deserve a statement of the government's position in this particular field. I do not think the Postmaster General's reply of March 15, so far as the United States arrangements are concerned, is quite good enough. I understand that the world postal union has planned a meeting for next year in which this whole problem will be dealt with.
I think we merit a statement from the government before the end of the session, after the royal commission report is available, on this whole question of second class mail, particularly in relation to subsidies.
I raised this question a year ago and made some remarks about the Toronto Globe and Mail. By going through a certain reference book one can discover what portion of a newspaper's circulation goes out by mail. According to the figure at which I arrived the Toronto Globe and Mail had the highest mail circulation in Canada. I therefore inferred that if there is a subsidy in this field, the Globe and Mail is perhaps making more out of it than any other newspaper.
I had conversations later with executives of the Globe and Mail and heard their side of this particular argument. They argued that they and most newspapers with big circulations are trying to get out of the mail circulation field as much as possible. However, they did not deny that there is a subsidy here. Their reason for getting out of this particular field was just the matter of handling involved within their own organization.

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This question of increases in postal rates for mailed newspapers is something the United States has considered. I have here an article in the Editor and Publisher for April 15, 1961. I should like to draw to the minister's attention the fact that in the United States there has been a marked drop in daily newspaper circulation through the mail. It is now only about 8 per cent. I should like to know from the minister what is the percentage in Canada.


William McLean Hamilton: Would you repeat your question.


Douglas Mason Fisher: In the United States only 8 per cent of daily newspaper circulation now goes through the mail. I should like to know what is the figure in Canada. I ask that question for this reason. This article goes on to say:
ANPA general manager Stanford Smith said:
"Diversion of big city newspapers away from the mails is further substantiated by post office department cost ascertainment reports for the past five fiscal years which show heavy declines in the weight of daily newspapers in second class mail and less revenue for the post office in spite of postal rate increases."
I should like to know from the minister whether this particular point has been considered. The United States postal department has increased the rates on second class mail, especially those affecting newspapers. Why has the Postmaster General's department decided not to do this? Is it because of the principle that they and the previous government have acknowledged, that it is the one way of ensuring the circulation of a certain kind of information? If this is so, I think the Postmaster General should answer my question concerning agricultural publications and small daily newspapers.
I go back to the point I raised the other day. Surely Roy Thomson does not need any kind of subsidy. Surely the McConnells do not need any kind of subsidy. Perhaps it is not a subsidy. Perhaps they could not put out these farming periodicals otherwise. But surely the department should have some kind of appreciation of the situation from a financial point of view. I look forward to later on receiving an answer in letter form on this matter from the minister. I may say that I do appreciate the information he sent me last year in this regard.
I should appreciate an answer from the Postmaster General on the question I raised several years ago concerning a marine post office at the lakehead. If C.S.L. and Scott Misener go through with switching their registry as they have indicated, we will very shortly have almost the whole great lakes fleet composed of foreign ships. This may happen. However, we have certainly had an

increase in ships of foreign registry since I last raised the matter. A number of foreign ships are stopping at the lakehead. I should like the Postmaster General to look at this matter again and see whether there is any more justification for a marine post office at this time than there was several years ago.
The last request I wish to make of the Postmaster General is more general. I should like to know what arguments have been used in relation to some newspaper criticism I have seen regarding the letter of the deputy postmaster general to the public accounts committee. I cannot identify it more than that; I cannot find the particular letter here.
I think the minister knows what I am talking about. There was a letter from Mr. Boyle, I think, to the public accounts committee in relation to the criticisms or suggestions made by that committee last year. The letter indicated that certain things were waiting until there were recommendations.
I am interested in the fact that the Toronto Star, for example, indicates that Mr. Boyle's letter oversimplified the problem in relation to second class mail; it oversimplified the variety of rates and the question of the shipping of United States periodicals by mail from a point within Canada.
I do not wish to take up any more time, but I hope the minister will give me a reply to these questions in letter form, as he has done in the past. In conclusion I should ilke to say that if my tip is mere or sheer fantasy, so be it; but I feel there is a certain amount of substance in it and I only hope that the fact that I gave it to the committee will not stand in the way of the minister going in this direction if he feels that is where his future may lie.


William McLean Hamilton: Mr. Chairman, I will have to answer by letter many of the questions raised by the hon. member. However, I think I should point out one matter immediately because it does to some extent simplify the situation.
The pressure in the United States to raise second class mail rates arises very largely because of the fact that they are losing from $500 million to $800 million a year in their postal operations. Half the increase in the national debt in the last ten years has been the result of postal deficits alone. They are pushing very hard now, not only in the field of second class mail rates but in the field of all rates.
We will certainly look into the possibility of a marine post office at the lakehead. We will review the deputy postmaster general's letter. Since it oversimplified things for the

hon. member for Port Arthur, we will try to complicate it a bit and help him along those lines.


Mr. Weichel:: I should like to ask a question of the Postmaster General regarding Christmas help. We understand that during the Christmas period notices posted asking those who are interested to apply for part-time or full-time work. If somebody who had applied, say, in 1960 was accepted and applied again in 1961 would such a person be given a preference? After all, this would appear reasonable, because he would have had some experience as compared with an applicant who had never done the work before, especially in post offices where there are still many boxes into which mail is sorted.


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: To
the best of my knowledge there is no fixed rule. I know from experience that generally we prefer people who have done this work before and there certainly is a tendency on the part of postmasters interested in operating as efficiently as possible to engage applicants who had had past experience.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I wish to say just a few words, briefly, about a matter which is of local interest in my constituency, but before doing so I should like to say to the Postmaster General that when he came to Windsor recently to officiate at the opening of the new addition to the post office he extended to me a courtesy which I greatly appreciated. I told him so at the time, and I want to repeat it now because I am grateful for the fact that when he was in Windsor, a distinguished visitor in one of Canada's dynamic communities, he extended to one of the members of parliament who did not share his political views the kind of courtesies which I think are proper and I want him to know that I appreciate what he said.
I neglected to say to the minister on that occasion what I should like to say to him in this committee now, namely that I am sure the records of the department will show that the former member for Essex West, the late Donald Brown, played a great part in arranging under the former administration for the planning which came to fruition with the completion of this addition. I am not taking credit away from anyone who is contemporary, but I do think that in fairness to the memory of that very active public servant and member of parliament, the citizens of Windsor and Essex county generally would appreciate a word in recognition of what he had done with regard to the extension to the post office in Windsor.
However, I rise at this time primarily to ask the minister to give consideration to a
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matter which I have raised from year to year, and that is the desirability now of giving consideration to the establishment of a post office building in one of the thriving communities of the constituency I have the honour to represent. I refer to the community known as Belle Riviere. That community lies along the shore of lake St. Clair. It has a volume of business now and an importance in the county generally which, I think, warrant special consideration being given to it. I hope the minister will find my words today-words which paid him a tribute which I combined with my request-something of an inspiration to accept the proposal I am asking him to recognize. I hope he will use his good offices with the Minister of Public Works and recommend to him the desirability of building a post office in Belle Riviere.
While he is doing that, as I think he will, I would ask him also to give consideration to the desirability of establishing a post office building now in the township of Sandwich East in Essex county which has assumed by virtue of the increase in the population an importance which I am sure the records of the department will confirm. These are matters which do not seemingly have the importance of some of the subjects which the minister was discussing today but I can assure the hon. gentleman that they are matters of considerable importance in the communities to which I have referred.
I close what I have to say by observing that I thought the minister was a little harsh on the hon. member for St. Denis. I do not think this house suffers from the good humour of the hon. gentleman from St. Denis. I think he has served in this chamber as a very constructive critic of the important department of government over which the hon. gentleman presides. I do not think the minister should be too touchy. He should not resent the kind of criticism which comes from the hon. gentleman, generally with a smile and a touch of humour which has endeared him to all members. After all, the hon. member for St. Denis is a distinguished member of this house. He has been a member of this parliament since 1935 and anyone who has had the long period of public service that he has had certainly qualifies for the succession in a year or so following the next federal election. I have no right to say who the next postmaster general will be in the next Liberal government but I would suspect from the contributions which the hon. member for St. Denis has made that he would have a very strong claim by virtue of his distinguished record as a critic of the Post Office Department during the time the hon. gentleman has been Postmaster General and during the time the present government has been in office.

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I hope the Postmaster General, before he leaves that post either to become deputy minister or upon the resignation of the present administration, will take steps to have a post office built by the shores of lake St. Clair in Belle Riviere and also to establish the kind of building in Sandwich East which I think the situation warrants. When the opening of the post office in Belle Riviere takes place and the opening of the post office building in Sandwich East takes place, as I suspect will occur, I not only hope but know that the Postmaster General will extend to me, in the opening of these buildings, the same courtesy which he so generously extended the other day when he visited the city of Windsor.


Mr. Chambers:: Now that the hon. member has started so well perhaps he would like to mention the rest of the cabinet that he proposes to bring in.


Paul Joseph James Martin: As we are dealing with each department of government I will be very glad to mention them.


Frank Howard: Mr. Chairman, I am sure the Postmaster General listened with a great deal of interest and concern to the comments made by the hon. member for Essex East, but I hope in the interests of the citizens of Windsor and area he will not be influenced by the remarks made by that hon. member regarding the next election.
At page 3221 of Hansard for March 22, the Acting Secretary of State gave an answer to a question I had asked. The question was:
1.	How many days elapsed between the mailing of Hansard from the Queen's printer and the day to which the mailed Hansard applies?
2.	By what class of mail is Hansard mailed?
3.	What is the length of time that it takes for Hansard when mailed from the Queen's printer to travel to Vancouver?
The Secretary of State answered as follows;
1.	One working day.
2.	Third class.
3.	Normally three and a half or four and a half
days.
I have since that time received communications from individuals who subscribe to Hansard regarding the time it takes for Hansard to reach them.
I received one letter from Captain Baker, a Canadian citizen who, for reasons of health, is living in San Diego, California. He said he noticed the question and answer appearing in Hansard and felt that he should supply me with some information in this regard. The letter is dated April 17, and he mentions that 6 days previous, which would be April 11, he made an examination at his local post office and found that one copy of Hansard reached him 21 days after it was printed. He said that the assistant postmaster came right to his home with a bundle of four copies

of Hansard which had just arrived. He informed me that, together with the assistant postmaster, they opened them and tagged the covers which they mailed to Washington so that the officials there could make an appraisal regarding the United States postal system. I mention this as an example of the long period of time which elapses between Hansard being printed and delivered. I think hon. members will agree that 21 days is a rather long time for mail originating in Ottawa to be delivered in San Diego.
I received another letter from a Mr. B. L. Cope of Roberts Creek, British Columbia. Roberts Creek is a few miles north along the coast from Vancouver. This individual also subscribes to Hansard and noticed the question and answer. He listed in his letter a number of dates of Hansard and the time that elapsed between printing and delivery to him at Roberts Creek. The copies of Hansard mentioned are from March 1 to March 23, inclusive. I do not know that it would be in order for me to read the tabulation as it appears in the letter but I would be happy to do so or make it available to the minister. In any event this tabulation shows that one copy of Hansard took five days to reach him, five copies took six days, three copies took seven days, four copies took eight days, one took nine days, two copies took ten days, and one took 11 days. I feel this information is at great variance to that given by the Acting Secretary of State in reply to my question. If one allows even a day or two more than the four and a half days, as suggested in that answer, that is still a reasonable length of time, but an eight to 11 days' time lapse does not indicate efficient operation on the part of postal services.
I might mention that the gentleman in San Diego indicated also that some copies of Hansard had taken nine and 12 days to reach him. I would suggest that the information I have presented would warrant a thorough examination of the postal system on the part of the Postmaster General particularly in regard to the delivery of Hansard. I would also suggest that this situation exists in respect of other classes of mail.
Mr. Chairman, may I call it six o'clock?
At six o'clock the committee took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The committee resumed at 8 p.m.
Frank Howard: Mr. Chairman, I had completed my initial comments about the two letters I had received concerning the delivery of Hansard through the mail and the long

delay which exists in transporting Hansard from the Queen's printer to the subscriber through the postal system. I am sure the minister will take a look at this matter even though I know he has had a number of letters from interested individuals which apparently have resulted in no great speeding up in the delivery of Hansard through the mail.
I should like to raise another matter at this time in which I am sure each member of the committee has a personal interest. I refer to the franking privilege of members so far as the receipt of mail free of charge is concerned. During the time that the house is in session there is no difficulty, of course, but people do get into the habit of sending their mail to members without stamps. I am sure that other members as well as myself receive letters during the recess which do not have postage affixed on them and this results in double postage occasionally having to be paid. While I am not advocating the wholesale use of the frank from any post office in Canada throughout the year, I think that members' incoming mail should at least be transported free of charge during the time that the house is in recess. I understand this is a statutory matter and that an amendment to the legislation would be required. However, I think it would be a most welcome move if the minister would undertake to take this small step and thus save at least some members of parliament the few pennies in double postage that they have to pay from time to time.
I have another comment or two I should like to make. One has to do with a stamp album which I have not seen myself but which was described to me in the most glowing terms by a stamp collector. He received it as a gift from a friend who had travelled on the mainland of China. Apparently these albums are made available to philatelists through the postal system in Peking; at least that is where he said his friend obtained it. I would not attempt to describe it as he described it to me but apparently he felt it was a most worth-while type of album in that it was well prepared, was beautifully coloured and the inside pages did not provide for the usual arrangement of affixing stamps by gummed tabs but rather contained a series of folded plastic holders with slits in which stamps could be inserted and from which they could be removed without the risk of injuring the stamps in removing tabs. I think this is something which might be examined by the Post Office Department to see whether or not a similar type of service could not be provided to stamp collectors through the philatelic branch of the department. After all, attempts are made by this branch to see that first day of issue stamps and so on are made
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available to stamp collectors and the branch also looks after block sales of stamps to collectors. I think the service they render might be extended to the provision of albums of the sort I have described which would certainly be acceptable to those who collect stamps now and those who may take up the hobby in the future.
I have examined the report of the Postmaster General for the year ended March 31, 1960, and there are two or three questions I should like to pose to the minister with respect to the statement of revenue receipts found on page 42 of the report. I find that the income from the sale of meter and register impressions is almost equal to the income from the sale of postage stamps. In the case of postage stamps the total is $83.9 million in round figures and for meter and register impressions the total is $78.3 million.
I have not had occasion to look at past reports of the department but I am quite sure the income from the sale of meter and register impressions has been increasing substantially over the last few years because the use of postage meters has been increasing. I pose this thought to the minister, and I am sure this is a subject that will interest his colleague sitting next to him, the Minister of Justice, in that it may have some connection with operations under the Combines Investigation Act.
I am not sure of this, but I have been told that there is only one company in Canada, namely Pitney-Bowes, which makes and rents postage meters. I may be incorrect in that, but that is the information I have been given. If such is the case, it would appear to be obvious that Pitney-Bowes is in a monopoly position in so far as the manufacture and rental of postage meters is concerned. The rental arrangements which Pitney-Bowes enters into, of course, are based generally upon the amount of postage which goes through the meter. If Pitney-Bowes is the only firm in Canada which manufactures and rents postage meters or if it is the major firm and by virtue of its size has a monopoly in the field, then I feel some extensive investigation should be made to make certain the operations of this company do not contravene the provisions of the combines act or that the users of these meters are not overcharged.
If the minister has knowledge as to whether or not the Pitney-Bowes firm has a monopoly in this field, I would greatly appreciate a statement from him on the matter and also with respect to whether or not the department, either itself or in conjunction with the combines investigation branch, has made

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any inquiry into this particular aspect. Perhaps following that statement we may be able to discuss the matter to a larger extent, if not now then when the estimates of the Department of Justice are being considered.
There is another item on page 42 of the report under the statement of revenues and receipts which I should like to discuss. Toward the end of the item "receipts", there is an item "return on investments" which, during the fiscal year 1958-59 amounted to $10.9 thousand and for the year 1959-60 amounted to only $8.7 thousand. There has been a decrease in the return on investments. I should like to know what is the amount of the investment on which this particular return is received. Where does the money come from that is so invested, and in what securities is it invested? What is the interest rate that is payable on this investment?
I think those are a few of the items upon which I seek information. I realize the subjects are rather scattered but perhaps the minister, either now or later on, will obtain this information for me. Perhaps I should resume my seat at this time.


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: Perhaps I could deal with some of the points that have been raised until now, Mr. Chairman. The hon. member for Essex East was kind enough to indicate to us at least two points in his riding where he would like new buildings. We will be glad to have a look at these situations. I think perhaps the pleasant time we had in Windsor is an incentive to have him help us open new buildings, and I hope that similar arrangements will continue for some time to come.
The hon. member for Skeena referred to delays in the mailing of Hansard. While I have taken great pride in the operations of the department generally, I have always been very careful to point out that we are not perfect. It is very easy, I think, for any members of this house to bring forward specific instances of delayed mail. We like to know about these things. I would ask hon. members to let us know whenever they find an instance of mail being delayed.
We will certainly follow up this particular situation, although I might say if the situation is the one I think it is I have had a good deal of correspondence from this particular gentleman who resides outside of Vancouver. He is quite elderly and pays great attention to detail, but we do not always find the situation is exactly as it was represented. However, we will follow up this particular situation.
Franking, of course, as the hon. member pointed out is a statutory matter. We can have a look at the suggestion which he made, but it would certainly require a change in the

act. In so far as supplying albums is concerned, I would say right away that this is not a very attractive proposition so far as we are concerned. Our policy for our philatelic section has been to stay away from anything which competes directly in the commercial field. We do sell stamps because, after all, we do produce them. There is no appeal in entering the field of selling postage stamp albums and a number of such items in competition with private firms.
I put some information on the record this afternoon regarding Pitney-Bowes. There are a number of other firms in Canada that have postage meters available for rent and, in some cases, for sale. I believe I listed five such firms. We are delighted at any time to license anyone who manufactures a postage meter that meets our primary requirement, that is ensuring that the postage involved is protected and there is no possibility of fraud or loss. Pitney-Bowes, however, is the major operator in this field beyond any doubt. Beyond that, however, I think the hon. member suggested that he deal with the matter on the estimates of the Department of Justice and on behalf of my colleague the Minister of Justice, I take that item as notice.
Finally, the hon. member asked about the item "return on investments". This, of course, is an unusual item. Some government departments, but not too many, have investments. Many years ago the department, in cooperation with the postmasters across Canada, set up a postmasters' guarantee fund or a post office guarantee fund, I think, would be the proper term. This replaced what had previously been the situation under which postal employees and postmasters were bonded in various ways. The fund was derived originally from moneys assessed against people employed in the Post Office Department, primarily postmasters I would think although it was a fairly general assessment, but since 1919 no contributions have been required. At that time the fund had grown to approximately $300,000 and it was considered sufficient to meet any claims which might be made against it. The claims, of course, arise from defalcations on the part of individual postal employees who have been entrusted with sums of money.
We do not have at the moment any detailed list of the investments of this fund. However, if my memory serves me rightly, they are all government bonds of varying maturities and whatever interest is being paid on them is paid to the Post Office Department as such. I am delighted to say that the fund is increasing a little bit each year because of the fact that not too many claims are made against it owing to the honesty of our postal employees.

I might just mention in passing that this is a little item about which the Auditor General writes me periodically because he would like to see all the money nicely gathered into one central fund. We have stood firm on this matter, and so far have done so successfully, because we take the position that this money was contributed originally by postal employees and that we are not going to turn it over to one central fund. We want to maintain it separately because it is in their interests so to do.


Frank Howard: I should just like to follow this matter along a bit, if I may, thanks to the graciousness of my colleagues. With respect to the delay in the mailing of Hansard, may I say that it was not a specific instance that was referred to me in this letter but rather a number of instances, as I have said, the ones he listed ranging from March 1 to March 23, inclusive. There are therefore perhaps 10 or 15 specific instances in which the times for the mailing of Hansard took longer than the normal three and a half days to four and a half days as announced by the Acting Secretary of State. However, as the minister said he would have a review made of this matter I will certainly give him the particulars that are contained in the letter so that they may be available to him.
I understand that the Post Office Department is also in the banking business and that it thereby competes with private industry in connection with savings and providing a service in that field. That does not seem to be too compatible with the idea of not wanting to compete in the commercial field in so far as stamp albums are concerned.
The minister mentioned the Pitney-Bowes Company as being the major company or, I think he said, by far the major company in the field of providing postage meters. I must apologize for not having been here at the time he mentioned the names earlier this afternoon. I wonder whether it would be possible for his department to provide information that would indicate the percentage of the market, as it were, that Pitney-Bowes and these other companies have in Canada, or whether it is possible to obtain that information in order that we may see how major Pitney-Bowes is in this particular field.
I shall pose a question to the minister with respect to outgoing mails as they are handled by the railway system. Again 1 have been told-and I have not had a chance to check on the matter-that outgoing mails are sent alternately via C.N.R. and C.P.R. from those communities which are serviced by those two railways when such mail is going to other communities which are also serviced by the same two railways. Otherwise the rail mail is
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shipped via the system which will go to that place if it is in fact served by only one railway. I wonder whether I have a correct understanding of the system, namely that the mail travels on alternate days or alternately anyway as between the two railroads in the circumstances I mentioned.


William McLean Hamilton: The
short question to this answer is no. There may very well be occasions on which the railways will have schedules that vary from day to day, perhaps a train which runs on Tuesday and Thursday, and there may be a different routing of that mail on the different days in order to make connections. I think a crossword puzzle, compared with the work of the transportation division, is very simple indeed because of the difficulty in connecting one link in moving mail with another. But basically, if a train is running regularly each day it is our practice to ship all the mail that is available by that train day after day. We do not alternate from one railroad line to another merely for the sake of alternating.


Mr. Tardif:: I am a little bit embarrassed tonight because I want to ask the minister for a service and I want to criticize the department. I do not know whether it is best to criticize the department and ask for the service afterwards or to ask for the service first and to criticize afterwards. I do not know which procedure will be the most effective.


Mr. Grafffey:: Get to the point and save time. Be brief, whatever you do.


Hazen Robert Argue: The hon. member should listen.


Paul Tardif: I hope I shall be able to make these remarks without having to listen to the hon. member for Brome-Missisquoi blowing his horn.


William Heward Grafftey: Brevity has its charms. I thought I would let the hon. member know.


Paul Tardif: The hon. member for St. Denis, when he made his remarks on the administration of the Post Office Department said that the minister was a brilliant one or rather, if I may correct myself, that the minister had made a brilliant report. The hon. member for Port Arthur said that it was not necessary for the minister to have his advisers at the table in front of him in order to make it possible for him to have his budget carried by the committee. I must admit that he is extremely efficient. In respect of some of the questions that he does not want to answer or for which he does not have the answer he says, "I will send it to you by mail". I think there are a great many questions that were asked here this afternoon the answers to which I would have preferred to get here

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rather than in the letter that is going to be sent to the hon. member who asked the question, inasmuch as it will probably be marked private and confidential and we shall probably never get to know what the answer is.
It is possible that the minister does not need his advisors in front of him in order to carry his budget in the committee. However, I think he should have some advisors in front of him when it comes to the matter of employer-employee relations. There is a low morale amongst the employees of the Post Office Department. I know the minister will probably deny that. Many of the employees who are not pleased with the treatment that they are getting in the depart-men do not wish to make official complaints.


An hon. Member:: That was prior to the raise.


Paul Tardif: That was prior to the raise. As a matter of fact they thought the raise was too long in coming. I do not think that the minister did any bodily harm to any of these fellows but I think he tried to worry them to death because he kept them waiting for two years. It lowered the morale of the department considerably. If the minister had taken the advice of the senior employees of the department I am sure that problem would have been settled before the expiration of two years.
As far as his personal administration is concerned and as far as he is responsible for making policy for the department I do not think there is so much to brag about when at the end of the year there is going to be a deficit of $9 million. It was, therefore, not in order to eliminate the possibility of a deficit that he kept the employees waiting two years. I think it was because the minister himself is of the opinion that he can run the Post Office Department without any assistance. All the employees of the Post Office Department who are trying to maintain the reputation which that department had prior to this present administration taking office, would perform their tasks in a much easier manner and would feel a great deal better about the situation, if the requests that they make for adjustments or the complaints they make with regard to working conditions were listened to and problems were solved much more quickly. I do not know whether the contagious habit of postponing decisions has affected the minister or whether the minister has affected the cabinet. For some reason or other a great many of these problems that should be solved are postponed and there is altogether too much procrastination.
This is what the employees of the Post Office Department have been comnlaining

about. They are not complaining openly because they are afraid of retaliation. I do not mean retaliation in the sense that they will lose their jobs, but retaliation in the sense that they will not get the promotion to which they are entitled, or the next time they ask for an adjustment in salary, instead of having to wait two years they may have to wait longer.


William Heward Grafftey: We do not behave like the Liberal government. Things have changed.


Paul Tardif: There is a boat in the canal again. I do not think anybody on this side of the house objects to mechanization. I was quite impressed by the statement of the minister that mechanization will not cause any post office employees to lose their jobs.
I know that mechanization is inevitable; we are going to have it. While it may not cause any of the present employees of the Post Office Department to lose their jobs, I am very much afraid that it will prevent other people from obtaining jobs which they should obtain. While mechanization should be gone into, I think it should not be gone into at an accelerated rate, but step by step so as to cause the least possible concern to the present employees of the Post Office Department and so as to bring about a partial solution to our present unemployment problem.
I think an employee or officer of the department should be appointed as a public relations officer. I do not mean a public relations officer to effect liaison with the people served by the Post Office Department, but with the people who serve the post office, the employees of the department.
I do not say that the minister does these things willingly. He is probably too busy. However, if there were an officer of that type to advise him, or if he were to listen to the senior officers of the department I am sure this would benefit not only the employees of the department but all the citizens of Canada.
I do not want the minister to forget what I have said, and I want him to clearly remember what I am now going to say.


William McLean Hamilton: You
have not said anything worth remembering.


Paul Tardif: The people of the town of Eastview have repeatedly asked for a post office. Eastview is a town of 25,000 people and I think they are entitled to this type of service. I have received many representations on this matter, the last one being from the Eastview board of trade, and I am told that no other town in Canada of this size is without a post office.
I urge most strongly upon the minister that he include a post office for the town of

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Eastview in the plans of the department this year. The people of Eastview feel they are being discriminated against as far as postal service is concerned. It is a town of 25,000 inhabitants as I said. Even if they are in close proximity to the city of Ottawa, it is very inconvenient at the moment for the people who live in Eastview to obtain in the city of Ottawa the type of service they require.
A post office in the town of Eastview would not considerably increase the deficit of the Post Office Department. I know the minister will take this matter into serious consideration and I hope this project will be accomplished without too much delay.
(Translation):


Samuel Boulanger: Mr. Chairman, at one time the city of Arthabaska, of which I am the humble representative as member for Drum-mond-Arthabaska, had as a resident the greatest statesman Canada has ever known, Sir Wilfrid Laurier.
There is in that city a post office of a very special character in that it is topped by an historic clock which the population wishes to keep as a souvenir of the good old days, of the years of prosperity and of pleasant memories.
I was told recently that it had been decided not to undertake certain repairs to the clock and to the belfry of that post office. I am told that the hands of the clock are gone, that the glass is broken, in a word that it needs a complete overhaul. On behalf of the citizens of the cities of Arthabaska and Victoriaville, and of the Arthabaska riding, I ask the Postmaster General whether he could not use $50 to $200 of his budget to make the necessary repairs and thus preserve that memento of the old days.
The city of Victoriaville will celebrate this year the centenary of its foundation and, in order to enhance the beauty of the city, we would like that clock to be repaired in order to show that the Conservative government is still functioning.
(Text):


Jacques Flynn: Shall vote 308 carry?


Some hon. Members:: Carried.
(Translation):


Samuel Boulanger: Mr. Chairman, I asked a question to the Postmaster General and I should like to get an answer.
(Text):


William McLean Hamilton: The
question of clocks in post offices is of course a matter for the Department of Public Works. I will draw it to the attention of my colleague. (Translation):
We shall do all we can so that the clock will work better in the future than it has in the past.
(Text):


Jacques Flynn: Shall vote 308 carry?


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
309. Operations including salaries and other expenses of staff post offices, district offices, railway mail service staffs, and supplies, equipment and other items for revenue post office, including administration, $121,039,796.
Chesley William Carter: Mr. Chairman. I do not wish to delay the passage of this item. I know the Postmaster General is anxious to have the item passed. However, I do want to support the remarks made this afternoon by my colleague the hon. member for Grand Falls-White Bay-Labrador. My colleague raised the question of a minimum salary for revenue postmasters. The Postmaster General pointed out that a minimum wage was already in effect, and I think he told us it was based on the volume of work carried out by the postmaster.
When the Postmaster General introduced his estimates the other day, in reply to a question I asked he said there had been a general increase in the salaries paid to revenue postmasters. I wish to make one observation and ask one or two questions in this connection.
The observation I wish to make is that "salary" does not seem to be a correct description of the payments to these revenue postmasters. It would have been a correct description a few years ago, but as I understand it, what the postmaster receives now could be more properly described as remuneration. It could more properly be described as remuneration because it includes not only a payment for his services but also an allowance for the provision of accommodation, fuel, lighting, maintenance, cleaning and other janitorial services.
In this connection I should point out to the Postmaster General that if this remuneration is based on the volume of work carried out, that is fine for the postmaster who has the post office located in his own residence or in some building of which he is the owner. However, in the case where the postmaster does not own the building, or where it is not in his own house and he has to pay rent being paid in accordance with the volume of work he carries out. He receives just the for the post office accommodation, he is not same payment as the man who handles the same amount of traffic and who can keep all the remuneration for himself because he owns the building in which the post office is housed.
The person who does not own the post office building and who handles exactly the same volume of work has to pay part of his remuneration to somebody else for renting

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the post office accommodation. That means an inequality in connection with people who are rendering the same service.
I wish to ask the Postmaster General a question, and perhaps he would prefer to reply by letter. I will not press him for a reply at the moment. The Postmaster General knows that in Newfoundland we have a special situation where the postmaster's salary is made up of two components one paid by the Post Office Department and the other by the Canadian National Telegraphs. In addition the question is still further complicated in that some of these salaries are subject to a ceiling and, I think, have been subsidized by both the post office and the C.N.T. In such cases any increases which may have been made in their pay would not be increases in fact because they would merely mean a reduction in the subsidies. Thus, the postmasters in this category will not be any better off.
I believe there are other cases where increases would only serve to lower the payments of the C.N.T. though I am not perfectly sure. The question I want to ask the minister is whether he would at some time let me have the number of post offices where the postmasters have not benefited at all from these increases. I should like him to tell me also what the minimum remuneration is at the present time and whether the increase was a straight across-the-board increase, and what the percentage rate of increase amounted to.


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: The
minimum salary for revenue postmasters at the present time is $245 per year for our smallest post offices. The increase which we gave the revenue postmasters was practically the same for all the grades although there were some variations to take account of certain special circumstances. Everything was rounded out to the nearest $5, as I remember.


Chesley William Carter: And the approximate rate?


William McLean Hamilton: The
approximate rate is slightly higher, I think, than the average of the increases which have been granted to postal clerks. It has always been our practice to increase our revenue postmasters on the same basis as civil servants. There will always be circumstances which will vary cases but this is the practice we have followed in this case.
(Translation):


Mr. Lessard:: Mr. Chairman, I have one or two questions to put to the minister. Could he tell us how much per hour is being paid to casual or intermittent employees? The other question is: Is the same wage paid to both men and women?


William McLean Hamilton: Would the hon. member tell me once again to what category of employees he is referring?


H.-Pit Lessard: Casual or intermittent employees.
(Text):


William McLean Hamilton: will get the answer with respect to our temporary employees in a moment and give it to the hon. member.


Mr. Batten:: Could I ask the minister how the revenue postmasters in small post offices in Newfoundland are paid? Are they paid by the month or bi-monthly, or is the period, in some instances, longer?


William McLean Hamilton: No.
We are rather proud of this. For many years revenue postmasters across Canada have been paid on a monthly basis. That has not been very satisfactory to them. They have pressed us for payment twice a month. Within the last year we have been able to put the process on one of our machines and the result is that most of the revenue postmasters across Canada now receive pay cheque twice a month. In the case of postmasters in Newfoundland-and perhaps this has led to the hon. member raising his question-they are still on a once a month basis because we have been introducing this change gradually, province by province. I believe that in the next two or three months they also will be receiving their cheques on a twice monthly basis.


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Has the minister any
answer to the question asked by the hon. member for St. Ann?


William McLean Hamilton: It
is on its way. My memory of the present figure or the figure which will very shortly be in effect is that with respect to our parttime employees, those who are paid on an hourly basis and sort mail in a city such as Montreal, it would be in the neighbourhood of $1.70 an hour. It is the exact equal of a postal clerk's pay.


Mr. Loiselle:: Did the minister say $1.70 an
hour?


William McLean Hamilton: That is my memory of the figure and I am sure it is right.


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Would the minister say if the same salary rate applies to women and casual workers? I should like the minister to check because I am under the impression that his information is wrong.


William McLean Hamilton: An
adjustment has been made there. Perhaps there is some misunderstanding but I think the class of worker about which the hon.

member is asking are those people who come in between four and five in the afternoon and on the basis of three or four hours a night work to handle the mail during peak periods. The principle which applies is that these people are paid on the same basis as permanent civil servants who would be doing the same class of work except, of course, that they would be paid on an hourly basis rather than on a weekly or monthly basis.


Mr. Denis:: I am told that this afternoon the hon. gentleman made some comments about a speech I had delivered earlier in this debate, and that in the course of those comments he described some of the assertions I had made as absolutely wrong. Well, I may have been wrong in some instances, I agree with him, but I have been reported as having said that the increase in parcel post revenue would amount to $22 million. That is not what I said. I said that the revenue from the parcel post service was $22 million this year. As a matter of fact a few months ago I put a question on the order paper seeking that information.
If hon. members take into account the increase to be expected from the new rate, if they add to that the revenue from the new high rate on United States periodicals; if they add to that this increase in third class rates the total increase will amount, I said, to an increase of about 90 per cent. That prediction may be wrong. Only the result next year will tell us whether the revenue of the parcel post branch has increased 90 per cent, or more, or less. Even the Postmaster General himself acknowledged that an increase of at least 44 per cent could be expected. But this 44 per cent increase would apply only in certain instances. If you live in Newfoundland and mail a parcel to the Yukon the increase in the rate is not as high as it is for parcels mailed to an adjacent province. The majority of parcels mailed are addressed to a destination in the same or an adjacent province. I realize that the majority of revenue received from parcel post service is derived in respect of those areas where the increased rate is 44 per cent.
According to a schedule I have, a parcel weighing 15 pounds mailed in one province to a destination in the same province within 20 miles would cost 255 per cent more than before the increase. The percentage of increase is higher when the parcel is mailed to a destination further than 20 miles, and increases proportionately. A parcel mailed in Hull to be delivered in Aylmer, which is within 20 miles, cost 38 cents before this increase. This category has been abolished and no longer represents a gift from the Postmaster General. The regular price now being paid in that situation is $1.25. If that parcel 90205-6-244
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were mailed from Ottawa to Aylmer or Hull, originating in one province for delivery in another, the rate is $1.64 instead of 38 cents. That represents an increase of 331 per cent.
In view of the circumstances I have outlined, how can the Postmaster General declare that the average increase is only 44 per cent? I presume that is the average, because of the fact that the increase in rate in respect of parcels mailed to the Yukon represents only 13 per cent. To that extent the increase supports the contention of the Postmaster General. However, the majority of parcels I mail from Ottawa or Hull are for delivery within a 100-mile radius and the increase in rate is much higher. In this case the percentage of increase supports what I have said.
The Postmaster General then made a few remarks in regard to the complaint that there was no French version of the pamphlet entitled "Letter Perfect". I have not suggested that there was no French version but said rather that I had not received the French version and would suggest that I should have in view of the fact that I speak French better than English.


William McLean Hamilton: Your
English is very good.


Azellus Denis: I feel the Postmaster General should have sent me a French version of this pamphlet. I would not suggest that both a French and English copy should have been printed but feel that a saving would have resulted in printing the French and English versions in the same pamphlet. As I said before, of the 24 pages in this pamphlet there were only eight pages of text with the rest blank or containing pictures.


William McLean Hamilton: Mr. Chairman, I want to say at once that I agree with the hon. member completely. We should have sent him a French version of this booklet. His English is so completely fluent, as hon. members know, I am sure the English version presented no problem. None the less, one of the standing instructions in my department, and in fact generally throughout the government, is that when a member or a correspondent is French-speaking we deal with him "dans sa propre langue maternelle". This was an error and I apologize to the hon. member as well as any other Frenchspeaking member in this committee who experienced this situation. I will take the necessary action in my own department to see that this type of careless action does not happen again.
I would mention very briefly in regard to the parcel post rates that the hon. member will know that the new rates are still nicely below the express rates. As he has said, a

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complicated schedule which has hundreds of rates varying in degree is a wonderful thing to argue about because he can choose that which supports his case while I can choose that which supports my case. If he agrees that the average increase is 44 per cent across the board then we are not too far apart. If we began to dig out individual rates this evening we would be here too long.
I would like to say to the hon. member finally that I have enjoyed tremendously the exchanges I have had with him in respect to the Post Office Department during the last three or four years. We have not always agreed and perhaps I have been a little harsh on one or two occasions, but I certainly have appreciated his interest. I hope that remark does not encourage him to go on for the rest of the night.
(Translation):


Azellus Denis: Just a word, Mr. Chairman, about the minister's contention that there were less thefts than the previous year. I quoted figures: 813-
(Text):
I was referring to everything in the Postmaster General's report. I did not mention that amount only in regard to what he said. This may include break-ins this year and last year. It is the whole picture I referred to at that time.


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: I would like to ask the
Postmaster General a question regarding electronic sorting machines-coders and sorters. Would the minister kindly inform the committee if an order has been placed with Canadair in regard to these machines?


William McLean Hamilton: No,
very definitely not at the present time. I would not expect any production order will be placed for these machines for some time yet.


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Would the minister be kind enough to inform us how many of these installations he is planning to make?


William McLean Hamilton: That is not an easy question to answer. Using the information we have regarding other postal operations, and the application of the output of these machines, in round terms I would anticipate they would be of principal value in perhaps 10 to 15 offices in Canada. It is an interesting fact that by far the larger portion of all Canadian mail originates in 10 to 15 offices in Canada.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Jacques Flynn: We have now completed the estimates of the Postmaster General.



DEPARTMENT OF NORTHERN AFFAIRS AND NATIONAL RESOURCES

[Stage Direction]
279. Departmental administration including Canada's share of the expenses of the "Resources for Tomorrow" conference, $1,105,390.
Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Does the minister have a statement to make before we study these estimates?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Mr. Chairman, from time to time it has been my privilege in this committee to consider the estimates of this department as well as the estimates of other departments from the position of a member of Her Majesty's loyal opposition. More recently it has been my privilege to take part in these important parliamentary discussions as parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Veterans Affairs. On the first occasion I might be regarded as having been on the giving end of the firing line while on the second occasion I was in the second echelon as far as the receiving end is concerned. Tonight 1 find myself in the front line of parliamentary action for the first time.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Which do you like best?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: The hon. member for Essex East has inquired which I like best. I shall let him have that answer following the completion of my estimates. Perhaps in about an hour's time I will be able to supply him with the answer.
There is no need to go into detail by way of a preliminary statement on these important estimates. My predecessor, the hon. member for Qu'Appelle, on three previous occasions has had the privilege of guiding the estimates of the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources through the House of Commons. I have reviewed the record of those debates and discussions and I am sure all members will agree that the pattern has been well established for the recent progress that has been made in all the multitudinous and multifarious activities of the department.
Then, too, I must mention the fact that unfortunately we are not able to have with us tonight the hon. member for Mackenzie River who has taken part in these discussions in a knowledgeable way during past years. As hon. members know, the hon. member for Mackenzie River has had a very serious illness extending over a long period of time, and I am sure we all regret his absence tonight and wish for him a speedy recovery. However, we do have another genuine northerner with us tonight, the hon. member for Yukon. He is the only hon. member able to be present tonight representing that great area of

Canada north of the 60th parallel which constitutes 40 per cent of Canada's land area and he will carry the main burden and responsibility for bringing all the pertinent problems before members of the committee.
I came to this portfolio less than six months ago and during the intervening time 1 have been busily engaged in making myself acquainted with the functions of the department in Ottawa as well as with the departmental officials and personnel here in Ottawa. I am very happy to inform members of the committee that during that time I have had the opportunity of meeting every member at work in the department here in Ottawa. That alone is a formidable task. I am not sure of the exact number of personnel in Ottawa but I understand it is approximately 700.
More recently I have visited the territory itself, having travelled in the Yukon during the Christmas recess and in the Northwest Territories during the Easter recess, and within two weeks I hope to be able to have a bird's-eye view of the important area of the north that we call the eastern Arctic or the Canadian archipelago. When I have completed this itinerary I will have had personal contact with the people in places that until recently were almost unknown in the southern part of Canada but which because of the upsurge in activity in recent years are rapidly becoming household words in the Canadian nation.
By way of introduction, I should like to make a brief reference to the administrative responsibility of the minister of this department. The Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources consists of an administration services branch and five operating branches. There are important interrelationships between these five operating branches. As members look through the blue book of estimates they may find some difficulty in finding any apparent interrelationship with respect to some of the branches that come under the general heading of northern affairs and national resources. It is true that there are some dissimilarities in the objectives, aims and activities of the national museum, for example, and those of the water resources branch or the national parks branch on the one hand and the northern administration branch on the other. Similarly, the Canadian government travel bureau would at first glance appear to bear little real relationship to other areas of the department's work. Yet it seems clear that activities designed to assist such an important resource-based industry as tourism have an appropriate place in the national resources department.
Having called attention to the great diversity in the work of these five interrelated branches, it seems to me it would make for 90205-6-244J
Supply-Northern Affairs more orderly discussion if I did not attempt in this opening statement to go into any detail with respect to the various branches. I shall therefore restrict myself to a few general observations on the department as a whole, particularly in relation to the votes shown under departmental administration, of which there are four. If it is the wish of the committee I will be glad to make statements on each of the five branches as the appropriate items are reached. I assure you, Mr. Chairman, that I am entirely in the hands of the committee in this respect. It might be that members of the committee in their general statements might touch on points that I would otherwise have considered, which I think will obviate the necessity of repetition on my part.
Hon. members will note that the department's estimates for the coming year total nearly $84 million compared with some $88 J million last year when the various supplementary items for 1960-61 are included. Comparisons between the two years, however, are somewhat misleading since last year's estimates included an amount of nearly $7-| million for the forestry branch which is now a part of the new Department of Forestry. It is evident, therefore, that instead of a decrease of S4million there is in fact an increase of about $3 million over the previous year when the forestry figures are excluded.
It seems to me that one of the most important developments of recent years in this department was the government's decision to give greater recognition to the importance of the forest-based industries in the Canadian economy by the creation of a separate fulltime ministry. This is in line, of course, with the emphasis on national development which was so clearly set before the committee on previous occasions by my predecessor in this office. I should like to pay tribute to Dr. Harrison, the deputy minister of forestry, and his colleagues for the excellent work they have done over the years as an important part of my department, and also to Dr. Prebble and his associates from the former forest biology division of the Department of Agriculture. So far as I am concerned, my contact with these gentlemen was in the form of a hail and farewell because they were already in the process of transition when I took over the portfolio. Already there is evidence that these men, under the leadership of my colleague, the Minister of Forestry, are creating from out of the two units an effective and smooth functioning organization which, in co-operation with the provinces, will more adequately fulfil the federal government's responsibilities in this very important field.

Supply-Northern Affairs
Looking ahead-I must make some reference to this event because of its importance-the most notable event for the department during the coming year will be the resources for tomorrow conference scheduled to take place in Montreal next October. The first item in the estimates, vote No. 279, includes an amount of $80,000, the details of which can be found on page 399 of the blue book, which is the federal share of the expenses for this conference. The provincial governments have agreed to contribute $40,000 which will bring the total budget for the conference to $120,000.
During the course of the session so far certain hon. members have maintained an interest in the plans for this conference as indicated by their questions from time to time on orders of the day. I hope that this interest will continue because I feel that if the success of the conference is going to be assured every hon. member will share some responsibility for publicizing it and making it as widely known in their respective constituencies as possible.
When I was first a member of this house, I can recall that year after year there was an annual call on private members' day for a conference of this kind. At last, the conference is going to become a reality. The hon. member for Port Arthur has been one of the persistent inquirers-I was going to say inquisitors, but I think inquirers is a better word-about this conference. I trust he will have something to say during the discussion of the estimates.
The other day a question was raised about the participants in the conference. I am happy to be able to inform the committee that there will be some 600 persons attending from governments, business, industries, universities and various interested organizations. The conference is long overdue. It is being called to ascertain what is being done across the nation with regard to the management of our renewable resources, the gaps which exist and what should be done in the future to assure wise management of these important resources. Water pollution will be a subject for discussion. Water was once regarded as boundless and plentiful in Canada. In some settled areas of our nation we have been confronted recently by a real problem of polluted waters. Legislation to deal with this matter has already been considered. I refer to the passage of legislation last fall providing assistance to municipalities for the construction of sewage disposal facilities. This is the sort of thing that anticipates what we feel will be the results of the conference.
Another piece of legislation which anticipates what we feel and what we hope will come out of the conference concerns the
IMr. Dinsdale.]
A.R.D.A. program which is a massive and comprehensive approach to the wise management of our soil and water resources. This bill is still before the house. No doubt there will be much useful and helpful discussion in respect of these important renewable resources. I shall leave the discussion of the resources for tomorrow's conference at that stage and just indicate that the plans are going forward. Perhaps if hon. members have any further questions we can consider them after those questions have been placed before the committee.
Research has been a topic of continuing discussion in Canada, particularly research in the north. Hon. members will notice that the second item in the estimates, vote No. 280, provides for the operation of the northern co-ordination and research centre, including a grant to the Arctic institute of North America and grants in aid for northern research. The act under which the department is established gives the minister of northern affairs the responsibility for coordinating federal government activities in the Yukon and Northwest Territories and also for fostering, through scientific investigation, knowledge of the Canadian north and of the means for dealing with conditions related to its further development.
The northern co-ordination and research centre sponsors and conducts research in those areas that are outside the sphere of responsibility of other departments. The increase of $19,780 in this vote is to provide for a modest expansion in the program and meet the increased cost of salaries.
The research program is going forward. There are some who will say that it is not going forward rapidly enough, but I do want to point out to hon. members that there has been a considerable expansion and increase in activity in this important area during recent years.
I think, Mr. Chairman, with these general references to the estimates by way of getting the discussion initiated tonight, I shall resume my place. I could have continued by talking about the progress of our roads to resources program which is covered by vote No. 282. Perhaps I should mention that this program now covers all ten Canadian provinces. In fact, my first formal duty when I became minister was the signing of the agreement with the province of Quebec which completed the national picture for participation in the roads to resources program. The expenditure to date under the roads to resources program is estimated at slightly more than $45 million, and federal payments already made to provinces exceed $20 million. When fully implemented, the program should produce some 4,500 miles of new and important

developmental roads in the provinces. At the moment 2,198 miles are under construction and 1,317 miles have been completed. We all recognize that in order to carry forward the program of national development that has been launched, it is necessary to provide access roads to our resources potential.
Before resuming my place I want to repeat that I shall be pleased to reply to general questions on departmental policy on the first vote or to questions of detail on any of these first four items. As I have indicated at the outset of my remarks, I shall be glad also to make short statements on each of the branches as the appropriate items are reached if that is the wish of the committee.
(Translation):


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Mr. Chairman, at the outset of my remarks, I want to congratulate the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources (Mr. Dinsdale) who, today, submits for the first time his department's estimates to the house. I must tell him that his statement made a very favourable impression because he has shown that great quality, humility. Some humility is, indeed, restful after that slight shortcoming we so often encountered in his predecessor.
The minister may be assured that we shall be extremely pleased to co-operate with him in the discussion of his estimates.
As this discussion may be divided in five general parts, I think we may save some time and achieve the same ends if, whenever one of those five parts is called, the minister were willing to make a statement, and, following this, we could ask him all questions we should think appropriate.
Mr. Chairman, I also thank the minister for mentioning the hon. member for Mackenzie River (Mr. Hardie), whom sickness keeps away from this house.
We particularly appreciate the recognition of his talent by the minister. Indeed we all remember how he shared with us his considerable knowledge of the northern areas, of their population and geographical conditions.
May I recall a gesture which I found very typical of the hon. member. At the opening of parliament in 1958, he came in dressed in his parka and the traditional garb of those living in the district he represents.
The hon. member for Mackenzie River is very proud of his district and he never misses an opportunity of trying to help those people.
Supply-Northern Affairs
Once again, we appreciate that the minister recognizes the great qualities of the hon. member for Mackenzie River who, we hope, will soon be back among us.
Mr. Chairman, I understand that a sum of approximately $3 million above the amount voted last year is provided for the coming year. Now, I wonder whether, in this amount of $82,707,036 which has been introduced today, the minister has taken into account the other sums of money which will be made available for the northern areas by the Departments of National Defence and Public Works and yet another branch which, I think, usually spend some money there.
Now, Mr. Chairman, I must also tell the minister that we want to pay tribute to Mr. Harrison and Mr. Trimble, and their associates, who have served this department so well.
The minister told us about the resources for tomorrow conference which is scheduled to take place in Montreal next fall. I mentioned it myself when the estimates of the Department of Agriculture were discussed. The conference will be of national interest, and that for many reasons. Since the elections which took place last June 22 in the province of Quebec we now have a well-disposed government, and that is why the city of Montreal will have the honour of playing host to representatives from all Canadian provinces who will try to lay the plans to stimulate economic expansion in all parts of this country and the development of our resources. As the minister said, our resources are not inexhaustible. And if in certain provinces, like Quebec, for instance, water resources are still plentiful, there are other provinces where certain resources are exhausted.
If I understand correctly, that conference would undertake planning of our natural resources potential for the benefit of this country.
In conclusion, the minister referred to the special research program for these northern regions. I recall that from 1953 to 1957, he gave special attention to all matters related to research, and I think that we should not be afraid to devote to it an increasing part of our national budget, for I believe that we are not giving research the importance given to it by most other countries, especially in northern Europe.
Having said that, Mr. Chairman, I want to deal generally with these estimates.
3866	HOUSE OF
Supply-Northern Affairs
How can we discuss this department's estimates without referring to the great vision of 1958? We hear less and less about it now. It has become a mirage over the years. We remember the build-up and the high-pressure publicity that accompanied this vision of the north at election time in 1958. That vision was not based on facts, as I will prove in a few moments. It seemed quite funny to us who had been sitting in this house from 1953 to 1957.
May I point out that there was in fact a vision of the north, but that we owed it to the former government, in particular to the former minister who has now become the premier of the province of Quebec. And to prove this statement-I want to state an historic fact-I will refer to the 1955 estimates. I believe the present minister was then a member of the special committee, as I was also. So, I quote from a statement made by the former minister, now premier of the province of Quebec, when we were about to discuss the planning of northern affairs:
As I intimated the other day, we are firmly convinced that there are two fundamental problems in the Canadian north, problems that we have been actively considering since: first, the achievement of its economic development as an integral part of Canada; second, the adjustment of its native people to a new way of life. As I said last Wednesday we have to deal with two main problems; one is economic, the other is human.
In the economic field our policy is to develop the natural resources of the north to the maximum national advantage. The process will involve gainfully occupying more and more natives and attracting people to the north.
And on page 536:
As to water transportation we have had since January preliminary talks with the officers of the Northern Transportation Company, and we will have a further meeting with them next week. We are hopeful of obtaining a fair reduction in rates to and in the north. As to air transportation, the Canadian Pacific Air Lines has now before the air transport board an application for a reduction in their rates to and in the north. We have decided to have a more vigorous policy of road construction. We have already made provision for more road building.
The second problem is the human problem. This is the problem of the natives of the Northwest Territories. The nation as a whole gives them family allowances, old age pensions, and relief when indigent, but the broader need-and they are immediate needs-are health, education and a sound economy.
On page 539, he said:
The provision of more adequate primary education is most urgent in the Mackenzie valley ... All the hostels to be constructed within the next five years, except one, will be in the Mackenzie valley. The hostels will be constructed by the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources, which from the first of April this year-this week-will have responsibility for the education of Indians


as well as Eskimos in the Northwest Territories. The hostels will be turned over to either the Roman Catholic Church or the Anglican Church for operation (the Indians and Eskimos are almost entirely of one denomination or the other) according to location and the population to be served.
These proposals have been discussed fully with Bishop Marsh of the Church of England and Bishop Trocellier of the Roman Catholic Church. Both agree that it is the program best designed to meet the special needs of the north and to remove difficulties that have been increasing in recent years because of the inadequacy of school facilities in various localities for children of one faith or the other.
The above program will be implemented over a period of six years, with the first unit being started during the coming summer-1955.
And here is the conclusion on page 540:
Mr. Chairman, I have given an outline of our policy to cope with the human problem of economic development in the north. I do not believe our plans lack imagination, vigour or aggressiveness.
At this point, Mr. Chairman, I should like to pay tribute to the former minister of this department, who is now premier of the province of Quebec, because I think we should give credit where credit is due.
I repeat, therefore, what I said a moment ago, namely that if there has been a vision for northern affairs, we owe it to the Hon. Jean Lesage. I thought tonight was a very appropriate occasion to pay him this tribute.
In order to substantiate my claim, I shall also say a few words about a brief entitled: (Text):
"The Yukon Territory. A brief presented to the royal commission on Canada's economic prospects".
(Translation):
-under date of November 22, 1955. I do not want, of course, to go into details, but I shall only quote this document: It mentions the following proposed studies.
(Text):
Natural resources; mineral resources and other natural resources.
Population and economic development; population; economic development and future of the mining industry.
Problems of economic development; climate and transportation.
Promotion of future economic development; roads; tax exemptions and water power development.
(Translation):
Mr. Chairman, still with a view to establishing the merits of my argument, I should like to mention the brief entitled:
(Text):
"The Northwest Territories-Its economic prospects."
(Translation):
-under date of November 22, 1955. I shall list the various studies suggested in this brief:
(Text):
Natural resources; mineral resources; agriculture; forestry; fishing; fur trapping and water power.

Other factors relating to economic development; population; the problems of the native people; economic development and the human problem; climate; transportation and the distribution of governmental responsibilities.
Ways and means of encouraging economic development; a railroad to Great Slave Lake; development roads and air routes to the Arctic.
Mr. Chairman, two briefs were submitted in November 1955, under the previous government, one on the Yukon Territory and the other on the Northwest Territories. Those briefs show not only the interest taken in this matter by the previous government, but also the awareness of this situation and a well defined plan for their development.
Mr. Chairman, since 1958, of course, it is no longer a matter of vision but of consolidating the studies already made. I trust that the minister, who is surely aware of this program of action, will see to it that it is implemented in the best interests of this area and of its inhabitants.
Mr. Chairman, if I understood correctly, these areas are not yet densely populated, far from it. And before we can populate them, it is obviously necessary to lay down a plan for development. Now I believe the most important problem-the minister has touched upon it ia moment ago-is that of highways. For in those areas, it is not unusual for two localities to be 200 to 250 miles apart, and everybody admits that in order to develop the fantastic resources of the north, we must have highways. As the previous minister stated before the committee in 1955:
A railway, if possible, when the project is deemed economically feasible.
Before these estimates are disposed of would the minister tell us what specific plan for development the government can put forward as of now, in order to open that area to agriculture and colonization.
I understand that farming is only possible in and around the Mackenzie district and 1 would like the minister to tell us-


Léonard-David Sweezey Tremblay: At the North pole?


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Roberval is trying, it seems, to make fun of me. If he is in earnest, I am prepared to stake my seat and prove to him this very night that the Mackenzie area has possibilities as far as farming is concerned. If the hon. member for Roberval is prepared to do the same, I am going to show-


Léonard-David Sweezey Tremblay: Are you going to grow cabbages in Baffin Land?
Supply-Northern Affairs


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: For the benefit of the member for Roberval, who is ignorant not only of the problems of the far north but of many others as well, may I tell him that farming is possible in the Mackenzie area for the simple reason that the summer season lasts three months out there. That is the reason.


Léonard-David Sweezey Tremblay: In Baffin Land?


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Mr. Chairman, the minister had a word to say about agriculture-
(Text):


The Acting Chairman (Mr. McGee):: Order. We got started in an amiable state of mind and I am going to suggest that members on both sides should recognize that the hon. member for Maisonneuve-Rosemont has the floor at the present time and that there will be opportunities for others to speak later.
(Translation):


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And now, I would like to deal with a rather ticklish problem. The minister is well aware of it, because he answered a question on that point yesterday which had been put to him by the member for Joliette-L'Assomp-tion-Montcalm (Mr. Pigeon). Today's issue of Le Droit contains an item with this caption:
No French.
Eskimos will have to learn English.
Eskimos, including those in Quebec, will have to learn English, according to a statement made in the house Wednesday by the Minister of Northern Affairs and Natural Resources, Mr. Walter Dinsdale.
Mr. Chairman, I would point out that in referring to Eskimos, I did not mention the hon. member for Roberval.


Léonard-David Sweezey Tremblay: Is there any reference to Mr. Lesage?


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: And the item continues:
The minister explained that the English language is used in the north for business and other relations, and that the government, in order to help the Eskimos to find jobs and manage their own businesses, had decided that English would be the tongue used in its schools.
Mr. Chairman, I understand the minister mentioned various reasons for the present difficult situation, due to differences in religion and the lack of bilingual teachers.
Further on the article has this to say:
Another question asked by Mr. Pigeon dealt with Eskimo schools in Northern Quebec using a textbook entitled "Canada, Our Country" and where the union jack is said to be the Canadian flag.

Supply-Northern Affairs
The minister having considered those questions did answer them yesterday, but I must say that I am not satisfied. As a matter of fact, according to he Droit he answered as follows:
Mr. Dinsdale said that the book in question had not been approved, that it was not a textbook but merely an ordinary book which was distributed for supplementary reading in a classroom at Sugluk.
Mr. Chairman, a few days ago, the Secretary of State made a speech in Toronto. In that high-flown way of his, he was celebrating the virtues of the two great races which must unite and respect one another; the two great races be treated the same way. After such a lecture, I wonder if the minister would not consider changing his position. I think it is most urgent for his officers and for the minister to give those school children education in both languages, since the Eskimos are Canadian citizens and I think it cannot be tolerated that in one part of the country, particularly in northern Quebec, only the English language be taught in schools.
I urge the minister to look into that matter, to take the necessary steps in order to secure the services of bilingual people so that the young may receive their education in both languages. I urge him also to see to it-since that comes under his jurisdiction-that no books or manuals carry any detailed information that is not according to the historical truth. Of course, we have no Canadian flag and I fail to see why we should give these young people the false impression that the union jack is the symbol of Canada.
Now, Mr. Chairman, I have several other questions to put to the minister. I shall put them as we go on with his estimates. But I hope that he will bring us up to date on a matter which I feel is of capital and vital importance, that is northern development. Surely the question is whether under the estimates we are called upon to pass now the government intends to put more emphasis on the construction of a road system. Since, it is the first time the minister has introduced his estimates, I would advise him above all to be as bold as he can.
From 1953 to 1957, we developed a program; we opened the way to the north and I think that everyone across the country will approve of a program for the development of that part of the country.
I must say that the amount of money we are asked to vote this year does not lead me to feel that the government puts enough 

emphasis for next year on the development and the economic expansion of that part of the country. We are disappointed at this lack of boldness. All through the minister's estimates we shall endeavour to put forward suggestions in order that the expansion-
(Text):


Frank Charles McGee: I am
sorry to interrupt the hon. member but his time has expired, unless it is agreed unanimously that he continue.
(Translation):


Léonard-David Sweezey Tremblay: No, no, no.
(Text):


Frank Charles McGee: Order. I hear an objection. The hon. member does not have unanimous consent and the Chair recognizes the hon. member for Port Arthur.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Mr. Chairman, I want to say just a few words.
(Translation):


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Would the hon. member permit a question?
(Text):


Frank Charles McGee: The
hon. member does not have the floor to yield for a question.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Mr. Chairman, I would have been prepared to allow the hon. member to carry on but I wished to take the opportunity afforded me to say in all frankness to the minister that my colleagues and I are somewhat disappointed in his department, in that the former minister left it and went to the Department of Agriculture. I had hoped, with all respect to the present minister and his wonderful qualities, that we would have been given a new minister in this department with a tremendous amount of drive and flair. The present minister has been in this portfolio for several months so that we can make some judgment now, although certainly an incomplete one, as to whether he has revealed these qualities. This is a point not worth belabouring, but I can say we are still disappointed.
This department has been bisected, to a degree, in that we have the new Department of Forestry. As a result there have been considerable changes, and I am sure an administrative shakedown. I would like to point out to the minister that this department has probably had a more thorough investigation by a parliamentary committee than any other department of the government. The committee on mines, forests and waters, under the direction of the hon. member for Lambton

West, has examined the operations of the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources in some cases twice and thrice over. I do not think anyone looking at the reports of that committee, including last year's report specifically in regard to the water resources branch, could come to any optimistic conclusion as to the state of this department when this government took over. The conclusion I have come to, as a member of that committee for several years, is that the administration of that department is not the finest in the world. One has only to look at the recommendations made by the committee on mines, forests and waters during the past three years to recognize that the members of that committee felt that the administration of this department was falling behind. This applies to almost any aspect of that department. We are disappointed because this department has not had an extremely aggressive minister at the head of it.
I do not wish to press this point further, but one would hope that the minister at the head of the department, as well as the senior civil servants, were possessed of enough drive and imagination to implement some of the many recommendations presented to it by the parliamentary committee. We will be watching very closely to see whether the present minister is able to do this.
The previous minister initiated the gigantic resources for tomorrow conference which is to be held in Montreal in October of this year.
I would ask all hon. members to look at information bulletin No. 1 which we received not long ago. I am sure they will realize then the tremendous scope of this conference, both in breadth and depth, in terms of background papers and material. I feel this will be the greatest conference of its kind ever held in Canada.
Business of the House
In the criticisms I have made previously, relating to this conference, I pointed out to the previous minister that a similar conference took place during and after the first world war. The background papers and material produced at that time were quite extensive. I have had the opportunity of studying this material while a librarian in a forestry library, and I point out the similarity between some of those original papers and the papers regarding this proposed conference. I would also mention the similarity between the proposed topics of conversation for the conference this fall, and those topics of conversation at the conference during and after world war I. This similarity indicates a lack of progress in the renewable resources field.
Mr. Chairman, may I call it ten o'clock.
Resolutions adopted in committee of supply this day reported and concurred in.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Mr. Bourgel:: May I ask the acting house leader if we will continue tomorrow with the consideration of the estimates of the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources, as previously announced, and then the estimates of the Department of Justice?


Mr. Nowlan:: Yes, Mr. Chairman, tomorrow we will continue our consideration of the estimates of the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources. If we conclude those we will then consider the estimates of the Department of Justice. If we conclude those, then I will discuss with the hon. members on the other side what estimates should next be called.


[Stage Direction]
At ten o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
90205-6-245
[Stage Direction]
Questions

[Stage Direction]
The following answers, deposited with the Clerk of the house, are printed in the official report of debates pursuant to standing order 39:

Mr. Roberge: 1.	Has the R.C.A.F. plane known as "C-5" made any trans-Atlantic trips in the last 12 months?
2.	If so, when were these trips made, for what purpose, and how many service personnel, if any, were carried on each of these trips as passengers?
3.	Were any such personnel carried to and from the United Kingdom on the trips made during the second week of March when this plane was used as a stand-by aircraft for the return to Canada of the Prime Minister?
4.	If so, how many?
5.	What is the cost of a trans-Atlantic trip and return for this aircraft?
Answer by: Hon. D. S. Harkness (Minister
of National Defence):
1. Yes.
2.
		Service Passengers	
Date	Purpose	East	West(i) March 29, 1960 to April 3, 1960.	Transporting Minister of National Defence and party	6	-(ii) April 13, 1960 to April 16, 1960.	Scheduled flight	25	25(iii) April 28, 1960 to May 8, 1960.	Transporting Prime Minister and party	-	8(iv) May 10, 1960 to May 12, 1960.	Scheduled flight	21	19(v) July 20, 1960 to July 23, 1960.	Transporting Minister of Finance and party	-	-(vi) September 28, 1960 to October 5, 1960.	Transporting Minister of Finance and party	1	-(vii) November 12, 1960 to November 29, 1960.	NATO parliamentarian tour	2	2(viii) January 2, 1961 to January 5, 1961.	Scheduled flight	27	22(ix) March 14, 1961 to March 17, 1961.	Service passenger transport timed to coincide with Prime Minister's return and so provide a back-up aircraft	11	213.	Yes.4.	See answer to 2.5.	The average cost for gasoline and oil of a return trans-Atlantic flight of this aircraft is $1,890.



MINOR PENITENTIARY INMATES

Mr. Regier: 1.	At the time of last report, how many inmates were to be found in the Canadian penitentiaries: (a) below the age of 12 (b) in each of the ages from 13 to 20, both inclusive?
2.	In the past three years, what measures have been undertaken by the Department of Justice to reduce the number of minors who are being sentenced to serve penitentiary terms?
Answer by: Hon. E. D. Fulion (Minister of Justice):
1. Statistics by ages are tabulated by inmate admissions. These are produced annually by the dominion bureau of statistics.
The last report containing the information requested is that of the commissioner of penitentiaries for the year ending March 31, 1960 (Table 6-nature of offence by age on admission):
(a) Below the age of 12-nil.
(b) Age
13		 1
14		 7
15		 22
16		 59
17		 115
18		 166
19		 189
20		  217
Total admitted during the year
ending March 31, 1960 (under 21 years of age)	776
2. This department does not have any supervision or control over sentences imposed on

convictions. However, one of the objectives of the correctional program of the department is to bring about a change in the practice of sentencing young offenders and in the facilities available for the serving of sentences so that in appropriate cases suspended sentences will be imposed and that minors serving sentences of imprisonment will be segregated.
[The following items were passed in committee of supply]:
Supply-Items Passed



POST OFFICE DEPARTMENT

[Stage Direction]
Post Office-
308.	Departmental administration including Canada's share of the upkeep of the international bureau at Berne and Montevideo, $2,174,216.
309.	Operations including salaries and other expenses of staff post offices, district offices, railway mail service staffs, and supplies, equipment and other items for revenue post offices, including administration, $121,039,796.
310.	Transportation-movement of mail by land, air and water, including administration, $64,180,536.
311.	Financial services including audit of revenue, money order and saving bank business; and postage stamps, $3,379,630.
90205-6-245J
[Stage Direction]
Friday, April 21, 1961