1961-04-19

[Stage Direction]
Second report of standing committee on public accounts-Mr. Macnaughton.


Hon. W. G. Dinsdale (Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources):: Mr. Speaker, I would like, through you, to inform the house of negotiations now proceeding with the province of Ontario for federal support of flood control measures in the metro Toronto region.
Hon. members will be aware that in 1960 the Ontario government asked us to participate in the metro Toronto and region conservation authority plan for the construction of dams, reservoirs, and channel improvements along the Humber and Don rivers and Black creek. The proposal also involves the use of flood-plain lands for flood control and recreation along five other streams, Etobicoke, Duffin, Highland and Mimico creeks, and the Rouge river.
It is expected that an agreement will shortly be signed under the Canada Water Conservation Assistance Act. Under this agreement the federal government would contribute up to 37J per cent of the estimated $24 million capital cost of the works. The government of Ontario would contribute a like amount, and the municipalities in the conservation authority the remaining 25 per cent. The plan will also involve the acquisition or zoning of flood-plain lands for flood control and recreation purposes. To use these lands for recreation will require further works amounting to about $2.6 million, which will be met from sources other than the federal government.
The part of the plan affecting Black creek is now fully engineered, and tenders can be called just as soon as the agreement is concluded. These works will cost in total about $4 million, including almost $900,000 which has already been spent by the authority with the assistance of the government of Ontario on a 50-50 cost sharing basis. These works are designed to prevent the recurrence of flood disasters such as the one caused by
hurricane Hazel which claimed 81 lives in 1954. The works will also have very important secondary benefits in recreation and in providing a regulated water system.


Hon. Paul Hellyer (Trinity):: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the Liberal party I would like to say that we welcome this announcement on the part of the minister. This rather wide-scale scheme has been under consideration for a long period of time now and it is welcome news that a decision has been taken. With the development of this extended conservation region there will be, as the minister has told us, considerable benefit to the inhabitants of the region. Not only from the standpoint of conserving valuable natural resources but also in limiting the damage which may be done in future from floods and at the same time providing outstanding recreational facilities to the inhabitants for many miles around. We say thank you to the minister for having finally reached a decision, and we hope the works will proceed without any further undue delay.


Mr. D. M. Fisher (Port Arthur):: Mr. Speaker, cynics might think there is some coincidence between the minister's announcement and the letter Mr. Gardiner received yesterday about the decision of the government not to support the subway scheme, but whether this is cynical or not it is a real advance to Toronto which I have always felt, as an adopted son, has been far more vigorous and attractive than any other city in Canada. I think this will go one step further in making it a genuine model for the rest of Canada.
I would have liked an indication from the minister that this would be a pilot type of project for more than the city of Toronto. We have, for example, in the lakehead region, and I know in other cities as well, similar kinds of authorities that are working to handle flood control and water conservation. I hope this may be merely an initial step which many other metropolitan or urban areas will follow.



STARRED QUESTIONS


Mr. McWilliam: 1.	Is veterans preference recognized and applied in the selection of postmasters and other personnel for non-civil service staffed post offices by the Post Office Department?
2.	If veterans preference Is recognized, were there any cases in New Brunswick since July 1957

Starred Questions
where veterans applied for, but did not receive, appointments filled by non-veterans?
3.	If so, what are the names of these veterans, and for what appointments did they make application?


Hon. W. M. Hamilton (Postmaster General):: The answer to the question is as follows:
1.	Yes; in the selection of postmasters. There are no other personnel, except part time help which is selected by the postmaster.
2.	Yes. During the period since July, 1957, 150 appointments have been made in noncivil service post offices in New Brunswick. In seven cases the veteran applicants could not be appointed as they lacked the necessary qualifications.
The answer to part 3 is a list of these people and the post offices, and I should like the permission of the house to have it printed in Hansard.


Mr. Speaker:: Has the minister leave of the house to supplement his answer with the additional material and to have it printed in Hansard?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
[Editor's note: The answer referred to is as follows:]
3.	Mr. Maxime R. Arsenau, Sheila, N.B.; Mr. Tranquille Chiasson, Pigeon Hill, N.B.; Mr. Joseph Gerard St-Laurent, Tide Head, N.B.; Mr. Robert McLaughlin, Belleisle Creek, N.B.; Mr. James Petrie, Juniper, N.B.; Mr. Arthur McIntosh Bromley, Glassville, N.B.; Mr. Norman H. MacFarlane, Temperance Vale, N.B.; Mr. Walter Blaney, Temperance Vale, N.B.; Mrs. Margaret E. MacFarlane, Temperance Vale, N.B.; Mr. John A. Doucet, Petit Rocher, N.B.; Mr. Omer Ward, Petit Rocher, N.B.; Mr. Adrien Laforest, Petit Rocher, N.B.; Mr. Norman Boudreau, Petit Rocher, N.B.; Mr. Onezime Frenette, Petit Rocher, N.B.


C.N.R. YARDS, TORONTO    VISIT BY ARMY PERSONNEL
Mr. Hellyer: 1.	Did Canadian Army personnel visit Canadian National Railways yards in Toronto on March 14 or 15, 1961?
2.	If so, what was the purpose of the visit?


Hon. D. S. Harkness (Minister of National Defence):: The answer is as follows:
1.	Yes.
2.	This visit was included in the movement control officers' course which is conducted annually by the R.C.A.S.C. school at Camp Borden. It is the practice, as part of this course, to visit and thereby become familiar with operating segments of the transportation industry in Canada.


On the orders of the day:


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Mr. Speaker,
I should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Defence supplementary to starred question No. 249. Can the minister say whether the visit of the Canadian army movement control personnel to the railway yards in Toronto was connected in any way, either directly or indirectly, with the possibility of a nation-wide railway strike in the not too distant future?


Douglas Scott Harkness: So far as I am aware there is no connection whatsoever between these two matters.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Is the minister sure that his awareness is accurate, so that the house can rely on the information he has given?


&quot;CANADA, OUR COUNTRY&quot;  ESKIMO SCHOOL TEXTBOOK
Mr. Pigeon: 1.	Has the textbook used in Eskimo schools in new Quebec and entitled "Canada, Our Country" ("Toward Democracy" series), where the union jack is given a place of honour in the title of one of the chapters, been authorized for use in such schools by the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources?
2.	If so, how long is it since this textbook has been in official use?
3.	Is it the intention of the department to discontinue the use of this manual?
4.	Is English the only language of instruction for young Eskimos, even in that part of Canada which is within the province of Quebec?
5.	How long has this situation existed?
6.	Would it be possible for teaching to be carried out in French also?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: The answer is as follows:
1 and 2. The book entitled "Canada, Our Country" ("Toward Democracy" series), is not a textbook and it is not authorized for use in schools operated by the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources. It is a small work book which was used in one classroom at Sugluk as supplementary reading material.
3.	Apart from the one instance referred to, the work book has not been in use.
4 and 5. English is the language of commerce and general use throughout the north. In order that the Eskimos may be equipped to secure employment and to conduct business affairs, English is the language of instruction in the schools established by the department of northern affairs for Eskimos generally. This has been the practice in northern Quebec as well as the Northwest Territories since the first departmental

school was established in 1949. It is necessary too, of course, to have the young Eskimos keep in contact with their native culture and language in the interests of family unity and stability.
6. The idea of universal education in the Arctic is comparatively new. In the interests of orderly change and transition, the pace must be matched to the needs of the local population. At the present time it would be difficult to have instruction in the French language for the reasons already indicated. There is the additional problem of shortage of bilingual staff. The schools of the north are staffed by teachers of the same religious faith as the majority of the pupils in the classrooms, and in northern Quebec over 90 per cent of the Eskimo children of school age are of the Anglican faith.
(Translation):

On the orders of the day:


Mr. L. J. Pigeon (Joliefle-L'Assompfion-Monlcalm):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources following the answers he gave to question No. 250.
At what time and by whom has it been decided that English would be the usual language of the Eskimos in the province of Quebec? Is it the intention of the government to consider changing this policy?
I apologize for not giving notice of my question to the minister.
(Text):


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Mr. Speaker, in reply to the question regarding this policy, as I understand it the school program got under way in the year 1949.


CANNED MEAT DONATIONS, WELFARE PURPOSES
Mr. Argue: 1.	How many pounds of canned (a) ham (b) pork luncheon meat, held by the agricultural stabilization board, have been donated for welfare purposes in Canada in each year since December 11, 1959?
2.	What administrative channels in each province were used to distribute this to the needy?
3.	What criteria were used in judging what organizations or institutions should receive this canned meat, and what body established them?
4.	To what authorities in each province was this meat released for distribution?
5.	Was any of this canned (a) ham (b) pork luncheon meat, distributed in Ontario for welfare purposes?
6.	If so: (a) what was the name and address of each institution, organization, or person receiving it? (b) how many pounds did each receive, and on what dates? (c) from whom, or what authority, did these institutions receive this distribution on each occasion?
Starred Questions


Mr. L. E. Cardiff (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Agriculture):: Mr. Speaker, owing to the length of the answer to this question I wonder whether I might be allowed to have it printed and appended to Hansard.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Mr. Speaker:: Has the parliamentary secretary leave to have the answer printed in Hansard instead of reading it?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Hon. Gordon Churchill (Minister of Veterans Affairs):: On that point of printing answers in Hansard because some of them are lengthy, may I say this. We have no idea how long they are. Would it not be better to have them passed as orders for returns without filling up the pages of Hansard? I think the rules make that provision.


Some hon. Members:: No.


Mr. Speaker:: If the minister requests that the answer be made an order for return, that can be done.


Lewis Elston Cardiff: That can be done.


Mr. Benidickson:: On starred questions?


Lewis Elston Cardiff: There must be a dozen pages of this answer.


Mr. Speaker:: Is the minister requesting that the answer to this question be made an order for return?


William Moore Benidickson: Is this not something new in the way of a departure from our procedure?


Some hon. Members:: No.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Speaker, this applies to other questions which are on the order paper. These happen to be starred questions asking for oral answers, but in this instance I understand 12 pages are involved.


Lewis Elston Cardiff: Twenty-four.


Gordon Minto Churchill: There are 24 pages of statistical information, which would unnecessarily clutter up Hansard.


Mr. Speaker:: The minister has asked that the question be made an order for return.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Mr. Speaker:: It is so ordered.


UNEMPLOYMENT STATISTICS
Mr. Skoreyko: 1.	What is the number of men unemployed in the age groups 20 to 34, 35 to 54, and 55 and over?
2.	What is the number of men unemployed in the major seasonal industries (e.g., primary industries and construction) in the winter months as compared to summer months in recent applicable years?
3.	How many single women are unemployed, and how many married women are unemployed?

Starred Questions
4.	How many men and how many women in the age group 65 and over are unemployed?


Mr. R. D. Thrasher (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Labour):: Mr. Speaker, the answers to this question are as follows:
1.	The estimated numbers of men unemployed in the week ended March 18, 1961, in the various age groups are as follows:
20-34 years, 258,000; 35-54 years, 214,000; 55 years and over, 82,000.
2.	The estimated numbers unemployed, both sexes, in the major seasonal industries during the winter months and summer months of 1960 are as follows:
Primary
Industries Construction
First quarter, 1960 . . 91,000	174,000
Third quarter, 1960 . . 34,000	65,000
3.	In the week ended March 18, 1961, the estimated number of single women unemployed was 42,000 and the estimated number of married women unemployed was 25,000.
4.	In the week ended March 18, 1961, the estimated numbers unemployed in the age group 65 and over are as follows:
Men, 16,000; Women, less than 10,000.


APPOINTMENT OF CENSUS COMMISSIONERS, B.C.
Mr. Herridge: 1.	With respect to the appointment of census commissioners for British Columbia, were any of them appointed on the recommendation of (a) members of parliament (b) defeated candidates (c) officials of Progressive Conservative associations?
2.	If so, what are the names of the census commissioners appointed under recommendations of (a) members of parliament (b) defeated candidates (c) officials of Progressive Conservative associations?
3.	By whom were the recommendations made in each category?


Hon. George H. Hees (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: Mr. Speaker, the answers to parts 1, 2 and 3 of this question are as follows. The appointments of the temporary census commissioners required for the census are exempted from the provisions of the Civil Service Act-T.B. 563112 of May 19, 1960-and the selection of these employees is left to the Minister of Trade and Commerce.
The appointment of each commissioner was made on the basis of his qualifications, which were as follows: a good education with subsequent professional or business experience in a supervisory capacity; intimate knowledge of the census district; proven executive and organizing ability; tact, good judgment and ability to deal with the public.
In making these appointments the minister did receive recommendations from various people, including members of parliament.


Mr. Argue:: You are not kidding anybody.


CIVILIAN FIREFIGHTERS, R.C.A.F.
Mr. Creaghan: 1.	What was the total number of civilians employed as firefighters by the Department of National Defence at Royal Canadian Air Force establishments in Canada as of March 31, 1961?
2.	Where were they so employed, and how many at each location?
3.	Has the department commenced negotiations with any municipal government since March 31, 1961, for the purpose of entering into contracts to purchase fire protection for R.C.A.F. establishments?
4.	If so, what are the names of the municipalities?


Hon. Pierre Sevigny (Associate Minister of National Defence):: Mr. Speaker, the answer to part 1 of the question is 216 established positions.
As the answer to part 2 involves a detailed list giving the names of stations and the number of positions at these stations, I would ask that the list be printed at this point in Hansard, if that is agreeable to the house.
3.	Yes.
4.	Moncton, New Brunswick and Shediac, New Brunswick.


Mr. Speaker:: Perhaps the minister would indicate how much material he is asking to have printed in Hansard.


Joseph Pierre Albert Sévigny: One page.


Mr. Speaker:: Does the house give its consent that the answer to part 2 of the question be printed?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
[Editor's note: The answer referred to above is as follows:]
2. Alberta
Station Lincoln Park, Calgary ....	12
Detachment,	711 East Calgary ..	12Detachment,	Vulcan	
12Detachment,	Lethbridge	
12Detachment,	Claresholm	
12Total	
60
Manitoba
Station Lincoln Park Detachment,
MacDonald	 12
Total	 12
Ontario
Station Downsview Detachment,
Weston	 14
Station Trenton Detachment,
Dunnville	 12
Detachment, Mountain View	 12
Detachment, Fingal	 12
Station Camp Borden, Detachment
Angus	 12
Station Clinton	 13
Total	 75

Quebec
Station St. Jean Detachment C.M.R. 12
Total	 12
New Brunswick
5 SD, Moncton	 12
Detachment, Scoudouc	 12
Detachment, Lakeburn	 12
Total	 36
Newfoundland
Station Torbay	 21
Total	 21
Grand Total	 216


BENEFIT CANCELLATIONS, UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
Mr. Roberge: How many claimants for benefits under the Unemployment Insurance Act have had their benefit entitlements cancelled as a result of cancellation of contributions during each of the months of January, February, and March, 1961?


Richard Devere Thrasher: Mr. Speaker, the number of persons whose benefit entitlements were cancelled as a result of cancellation of contributions found to have been non bona fide was, January 1961, 1,054; February 1961, 1,150. The information for March, 1961, is not yet available.


FERRY SERVICE, EAST COAST-NEWFOUNDLAND
Mr. Pickersgill: 1.	Has the government given any consideration to the establishment of an east coast ferry to ply between the mainland of Canada and either Argen-tia or St. John's, Newfoundland?
2.	If so, at what time was such consideration given, and what is the result of the consideration?
3.	When is it expected that this matter will be brought to a conclusion?


Hon. Leon Balcer (Minister of Transport):: Mr. Speaker, the answer which I gave on March 29 to a similar question by the hon. member for Cape Breton North and Victoria covers this matter, and at the present time there is nothing I can add to that answer.


RELIEF ORDERS, MANITOBA INDIANS
Mr. Pickersgill: 1.	Is any direction given by any official of the Indian affairs branch to Indians in Manitoba as to the storekeepers to whom relief orders should be presented?
2.	If so, what is the nature of these directions, and under what authority are they being given?


Hon. Ellen L. Fairclough (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration):: Mr. Speaker, the answer to this question is that in the majority of cases where relief costs are met
Starred Questions
from appropriation the choice of supplier is left to the discretion of the Indian recipient and no direction in the matter is given by officials of the Indian affairs branch. In some instances due to local circumstances, it may be desirable to designate specific outlets.


C.B.C. INTERNATIONAL SERVICE  PERSONNEL TRANSFERS
Mr. Cardin: 1.	How many of the twenty-one employees of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation international service, who are being displaced by curtailment of the service, have been transferred to other continuing positions?
2.	How many so transferred have had their remuneration reduced?
3.	Have employees not yet transferred been retained by the C.B.C. since March 31?


Mr. M. J. A. Lambert (Parliamentary Secrelary to the Minister of National Revenue):: In reply to this question, the information supplied by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation is as follows:
1.	Twelve employees transferred to continuing positions. Two employees transferred to temporary positions.
2.	Seven of those transferred to continuing positions have had their remuneration reduced. Two of those transferred to temporary positions have had their remuneration reduced.
3.	No employees have been retained by the corporation since March 31.
Two of the 21 employees in question were on post retirement employment and have now been retired; two more voluntarily resigned to seek employment elsewhere, and three others were separated when they did not accept alternative employment offered by the corporation.


DAYLIGHT SAVING TIME, RAILWAY SCHEDULES
Mr. Deschafeleis: 1.	Has any consideration or study been given recently to the possibility of the adaptation of daylight saving time in railway time schedules?
2.	If so, what Is the substance of the decision in regard to any such consideration or study?
3.	If not, will the government consider having this question referred to the appropriate authority for study?


Léon Balcer: With regard to part 1 of the question, it should be first pointed out that standard time comes exclusively under provincial jurisdiction and therefore is not a subject for consideration by the federal government. However, the question was referred to the railway association of Canada, who advise that from time to time representations are made that the railways should adopt daylight saving time, and that these requests are given careful consideration.

Starred Questions
As to part 2, the railway association does not consider that the adoption of daylight saving time would be workable. The practice is not uniform throughout Canada, there being some provinces, and communities within provinces, which do not put it into effect, and the association also points out that in the operation of trains requiring interchange with United States railways, which operate on standard time, it is essential in the interests of safety that Canadian trains be operated on the same basis. However, before changing the timetables each year to coincide with the adoption of daylight saving time, the association consults with the provinces and the larger municipalities in an endeavour to provide schedules which will meet the convenience of the majority of passengers.
Part 3 is answered by the answer to part 1.


GARIBALDI PARK, B.C.
Mr. Taylor: 1.	Has any offer been made to secure Garibaldi park in British Columbia as a national park?
2. If so: (a) What was the date of the offer, which minister made it, and to whom was it made? (b) Was it accepted by the provincial government of British Columbia? (c) Is it still open?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: In answer to both parts of the question I would refer the hon. member to page 6850 of Hansard for July 23, 1960 when reference was made to this matter during the debate on the 1960-61 estimates of the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources. At that time the minister pointed out that on May 2, 1958 he had written to the minister of recreation and conservation in British Columbia, Hon. Earle Westwood, proposing that if British Columbia were willing to turn the area over to the federal government free of all encumbrances the matter would be brought before the federal government for consideration and, should it be viewed favourably by the government, the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources would take over the area in accordance with the National Parks Act and proceed with a program of development.
There has since been no change in the position. I might add that no reply to this letter was ever received.


CROWN CORPORATIONS-PERSONNEL EMPLOYED
Mr. MacRae: What was the total number of personnel employed in crown corporations as of March 31, 1960, and March 31, 1961?


Mr. E. L. Morris (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Trade and Commerce):: Since the answer to this question is necessarily long, I wonder if it could be included in the record of Hansard. It consists of approximately one page.


Mr. Speaker:: What is the extent of the answer?


Edmund Leverett Morris: It consists of approximately one page.


Mr. Speaker:: Has the parliamentary secretary leave to have his answer printed in Hansard at this point?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
[Editors note: The answer referred to above is as follows:]
Personnel employed by agency and proprietary corporations and other government of Canada agencies as at March 31, I960 numbered 140,726; and at January 31, 1961 numbered 134,455 (the latest figure available).
The figures include all employees of the following:
Agency Corporations: Atomic Energy of Canada Ltd., Canadian Arsenals Ltd., Canadian Commercial Corp., Canadian Patents and Development Ltd., Crown Assets Disposal Corp., Defence Construction (1951) Ltd., National Battlefields Commission, National Capital Commission, National Harbours Board, Northern Canada Power Commission.
Proprietary Corporations: Canadian Broadcasting Corp., Canadian National Railways, Canadian Overseas Telecommunication Corp., Central Mortgage and Housing Corp., Cornwall International Bridge Company Ltd., Eldorado Aviation Ltd., Eldorado Mining and Refining Ltd., Export Credits Insurance Corp., Farm Credit Corporation, Northern Transportation Company Ltd., Polymer Corporation Ltd., St. Lawrence seaway authority, Trans-Canada Air Lines.
Other Agencies: Bank of Canada, Canadian wheat board, Industrial development bank, Northern Ontario Pipe Line Crown Corp., office of the custodian.


C.N.R. PURCHASES OF TRUCKING COMPANIES
Mr. Fisher: 1.	What were the names, locations, senior management officials, value of assets, rolling stock, number of employees, of the trucking companies purchased by the Canadian National Railways in the past two years?
2.	Are the original management personnel of these firms still managing them? If not, in which companies have they been displaced?
3.	Is there any litigation or notification of litigation between any of these companies and the agents for the sale of the companies to the railway? If so, what companies, and for what general reason?


Léon Balcer: This question should stand as an order for return.


C.N.R. DEFICIT IN RESPECT OF TRUCKING FIRMS
Mr. Fisher: 1.	Of the Canadian National Railways deficit for the last fiscal year, how much of the deficit is attributable to operations of those trucking companies purchased within the last two years by the C.N.R. ?
2.	Has the government auditor examined the accounts of these companies for the last financial year?
3.	Are such deficits determined, if any, simply on operating revenues and operating disbursements, or do they include the charges for the money required to purchase the trucking firms?


Léon Balcer: This question too, should be made an order for return.


DR. MARCEL CHAPUT
Mr. Fisher: Does the defence research board have in its employ a Dr. Marcel Chaput? If so, is this the Dr. Chaput who is the national vice-president of the "rassemblement pour l'independance nationale"?


Douglas Scott Harkness: This question is in two parts. The answer to both parts is in the affirmative.

On the orders of the day:


Douglas Mason Fisher: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of National Defence a supplementary question in regard to the answer he gave to this starred question. I would like to ask whether Dr. Chaput, who has turned out to be an employee of the defence research board and vice president of this organization which I understand	seeks national independence for
Quebec or French Canada, is in a position within the defence research board that might make him privy to any military or other secrets.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Mr. Speaker, Dr. Chaput is engaged at the present time in some investigations in regard to survival techniques which we hope to have everyone in Canada made aware of and practise.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS

["1.\tOf the Canadian National Railways' deficit for the last fiscal year, how much of the deficit is attributable to operations of those trucking companies purchased within the last two years by the C.N.R.?\n2.\tHas the government auditor examined the accounts of these companies for the last financial year?\n3.\tAre such deficits determined, if any, simply on operating revenues and operating disbursements, or do they include the charges for the money required to purchase the trucking firms?"]
Mr. Speaker:: Are there any questions to be made orders for returns?


William Moore Benidickson: May I rise on a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Your Honour is chairman of a current committee of the house, which I do not attend, relating to the revision of the rules.
Orders for Returns
As I understand it, the revision of the rules in 1955 provided for starred questions for the first time. I will admit immediately that I cannot say positively that we have never before had a starred question made an order for return, but I suggest to Your Honour that this might be considered by your committee. On many occasions we have had a suggestion such as-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member would be in order in raising a point of order about the disposition of questions today, but he would not be in order in making suggestions for the committee which has been appointed by the house.


William Moore Benidickson: Mr. Speaker, I thought I was restrained and in order in my comments on the new procedure which, as I understand it, developed today. I waited until the end of starred questions to make the suggestion I have offered.


Gordon Minto Churchill: There is nothing new in the procedure at all. It is clearly shown in standing order 39, which permits a member to ask for an oral answer to his question. This is provided for in subsection 2 (a): the hon. member puts an asterisk in front of the question. Subsection 5 of the same rule reads as follows:
If a question is of such a nature that, in the opinion of the minister who is to furnish the reply, such reply should be in the form of a return, and, during the question period on Wednesday, the minister states that he has no objection to laying such return upon the table of the house, his statement shall, unless otherwise ordered by the house, be deemed an order of the house to that effect and the same shall be entered in the Votes and Proceedings as such.
It has been done before, and it was never the intention of the committee, when the rules were changed in 1955, that this practice of having orders for returns should be abolished. Even if an hon. member wishes an oral answer to his question, it is left to the judgment of the minister whether that oral answer can be provided later, or whether it is a lengthy one. If it is lengthy, then an order for return is the proper procedure.


Mr. Speaker:: Perhaps the point of order has been sufficiently answered. The rule provides for questions being made orders for returns at the request of a minister. Perhaps the only point in issue raised by the hon. member for Kenora-Rainy River is whether this rule applies to starred questions.


William Moore Benidickson: Yes.


Mr. Speaker:: I think it has been made quite clear that it does apply to starred questions. This procedure is provided for in the report of the special committee appointed

Orders for Returns
to consider with Mr. Speaker the procedure of the House of Commons, which was presented on Tuesday, June 14, 1955, and adopted by the house. In that report at page 37 there occurs this paragraph:
When it is desired to have any starred questions passed as an "order for return", or to have any such questions stand as a "notice of motion", a minister will so indicate when the said question is called on a Wednesday.
Are there any questions to be made orders for returns?


Léon Balcer: Yes, Mr. Speaker.



Mr. Argue: 1.	Has a petition of protest from the citizens of Jasper been received on behalf of Mr. John Brodie, Jr., by the Prime Minister?
2.	If so, what reply has been made?
3.	For what length of time, and in what capacities has Mr, Brodie been employed by the federal government?
4.	Did he attempt a civil service commission examination in 1960?
5.	If so, (a) what were the results of the examination (b) for what position was the examination?
6.	Was he sworn in to a civil service position in 1960?
7.	If so, (a) on what date (b) in what position?
8.	Was he subsequently told that his services were no longer required?
9.	If so, for what reason?


CANNED MEAT DONATIONS, WELFARE PURPOSES
Mr. Argue: 1.	How many pounds of canned (a) ham (b) pork luncheon meat, held by the agricultural stabilization board, have been donated for welfare purposes in Canada in each year since December 11, 1959?
2.	What administrative channels in each province were used to distribute this to the needy?
3.	What criteria were used in judging what organizations or institutions should receive this canned meat, and what body established them?
4.	To what authorities in each province was this meat released for distribution?
5.	Was any of this canned (a) ham (b) pork luncheon meat, distributed in Ontario for welfare purposes?
6.	If so: (a) what was the name and address of each institution, organization, or person receiving it? (b) how many pounds did each receive, and on what dates? (c) from whom, or what authority, did these institutions receive this distribution on each occasion?


C.N.R. PURCHASES OF TRUCKING COMPANIES
Mr. Fisher: 1.	What were the names, locations, senior management officials, value of assets, rolling stock, number of employees, of the trucking companies purchased by the Canadian National Railways in the past two years?
2.	Are the original management personnel of these firms still managing them? If not, in which companies have they been displaced?

3.	Is there any litigation or notification of litigation between any of these companies and the agents for the sale of the companies to the railway? If so, what companies, and for what general reason?


C.N.R. DEFICIT IN RESPECT OF TRUCKING FIRMS
Mr. Fisher: 1.	Of the Canadian National Railways' deficit for the last fiscal year, how much of the deficit is attributable to operations of those trucking companies purchased within the last two years by the C.N.R.?
2.	Has the government auditor examined the accounts of these companies for the last financial year?
3.	Are such deficits determined, if any, simply on operating revenues and operating disbursements, or do they include the charges for the money required to purchase the trucking firms?



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS


[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 103-Mr. Argue:
For a copy of all correspondence, telegrams, and other documents exchanged between the federal government, or any agency thereof, and by provincial government, organization or company, since February 22, 1960, pertaining to (a) the curtailment of (b) the allocation of, uranium contracts.
George Harris Hees: Mr. Speaker, with the consent of the hon. member for Assiniboia I would ask that this motion be allowed to stand. One of the cases is now before the courts and it might be prejudicial to make public such information as has been requested. We would like to examine the document.


Mr. Speaker:: Stand.
Question stands.



TRANS-CANADA HIGHWAY    CORRESPONDENCE WITH QUEBEC

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 106-Mr. Bourbonnais:
For a copy of the correspondence, telegrams, and other documents exchanged since October 27, 1960, between the government of the province of Quebec and the Department of Public Works, in connection with the trans-Canada highway.
Mr. Y. R. Tasse (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Works):: This motion is acceptable, subject to the usual reservation as to the consent of the government of the province of Quebec.


Mr. Speaker:: Subject to the limitations expressed by the parliamentary secretary, is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion?


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 107-Mr. Bourbonnais:
For a copy of the correspondence and other documents exchanged since January 1, 1959, with the department of fish and game of the province of Quebec, in connection with the use of the Soulanges canal as a tourist park and a centre of pisciculture.
Léon Balcer: There is no objection to this motion, subject to the usual reservation as to the consent of the province.


Mr. Speaker:: Subject to the reservation expressed by the minister, is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion?


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 108-Mr. Benidickson (for Mr. Pickersgill):
For a copy of the replies of the Postmaster General or his officials to the communications regarding the post office at Fraserwood, Manitoba, included in sessional paper 119E tabled on March 27, 1961.
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. L. B. Pearson (Leader of ihe Opposition):: Can the Prime Minister give the house any information on the situation in Cuba?


Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, in so far as the military situation is concerned, there is nothing to add to that which has appeared in the press. During the past two days official means of communication have been interrupted and it has not been possible for the Canadian embassy to communicate with the government since about noon on Monday. For the same reason we are unable to give any information respecting the safety and well-being of Canadian citizens in Cuba.
The Canadian government is following events in Cuba with much anxiety and deep concern. The struggle between the contending groups has taken on a new and more threatening aspect with the dispatch by Chairman Khrushchev of a message which revealed beyond doubt the extent to which international communism is prepared to go in consolidating its foothold in Cuba, a bridgehead from which the penetration of the whole of Latin America could be launched.
It is now all too clear that the situation in Cuba is much more than a continuation
Inquiries of the Ministry of the original internal revolution which was to a large extent an expression of the legitimate social and economic aspirations of the Cuban people. Cuba, like so many small and defenceless countries, has become the focal point in the ideological contest which is progressively reaching into every corner of the world. In our country we cannot be indifferent to this new danger which affects the hemisphere in which we live.
Cuba is a casualty of the internationalization of its original revolution. In this process the interests of the Cuban people have been subordinated to the interplay of outside forces beyond their control. Civil liberties are further curtailed in the name of national security, and arbitrary acts of reprisal have become a substitute for justice. These are manifestations of a dictatorship which are abhorrent to free men everywhere.
Any threat to the peace of this hemisphere affects us here in Canada. We have neither the means nor the intention to intervene. What we earnestly wish to see established are stable conditions within Cuba which will allow it to develop in peace and live free from outside pressures as a constructive partner of the nations of the western hemisphere.
As the Leader of the Opposition knows, the matter is before the United Nations. Seven Latin American countries have proposed a resolution to bring about the restoration of peaceful relations at the earliest possible date through placing the matter in its various aspects before the organization of American states.


Mr. H. W. Herridge (Kootenay West):: Mr. Speaker, arising out of the Prime Minister's reply, which we appreciate, I should like to ask a supplementary question. In view of the anxiety and concern expressed in Canada, Great Britain, South America and elsewhere over the threat to world peace of the present situation in Cuba, will the government use every means at its disposal to impress upon the government of the United States the immediate necessity of doing what is possible to promote peace in that area, and of utilizing the United Nations to assist and promote the development of democratic institutions and the stability of the Cuban economy?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, there is very little I can add to what I have already said. I might say, however, that this morning the Secretary of State for External Affairs had a meeting with Mr. Adlai Stevenson, the United States ambassador to the United Nations, and discussed this matter in all its ramifications and effects. I think I cannot go any further.
3796	HOUSE OF
Inquiries of the Ministry


INQUIRY AS TO CURRENT SITUATION
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Paul Martin (Essex East):: Mr. Speaker, as the Prime Minister has reported on one phase of the apparently deteriorating situation throughout the world, will he say what is the situation now with regard to developments in Laos, in view of the uncertain quality of the Russian note to Her Majesty's government in the United Kingdom?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I think the house would not object to my voicing a word of welcome to the hon. member. The house is not the same without his penetrating capacity to ask questions.
So far as Laos is concerned, as the hon. member has said the reply given was of such a nature as to leave in doubt the course that will be followed in Laos. The Soviet views, however, on a cease fire in Laos, the reactivation of the international supervisory commission, and the convening of a conference to consider a Laotian settlement were made known to the United Kingdom ambassador in Moscow on April 16. As neither the Soviet government nor the United Kingdom government has publicly revealed the contents, there is little that one can say. The Soviet views are being studied by the governments principally concerned. The latest communications do not fully clarify the Soviet position, and further consultations and exchanges will be required before a definite plan for negotiating a settlement can be expected.


REPORTED SHOOTING OF INDIAN HIGH
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Herbert Wilfred Herridge: should like to direct a question to the Minister of Justice. Has the minister any information with respect to the shooting in Ottawa this afternoon of the first secretary of the high commissioner for India?


Hon. E. D. Fulton (Minister of Justice):: No, Mr. Speaker, I have not. I have no reason to question the accuracy of the hon. member's statement, but I have not heard about the matter. If what the hon. member says is correct, I am certain it is a matter of profound regret to all of us.



HOUSING


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Erhart Regier (Burnaby-Coquitlam):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Minister 

of Public Works or the acting minister whether it is the intention of the government to acquaint members of parliament with the new regulations governing the proposed establishment of an effective secondary mortgage market before the minister's estimates are presented for consideration by the house?


Hon. George C. Nowlan (Aciing Minister of Public Works):: Mr. Speaker, I will draw the attention of the minister to this question, and I am sure he will answer it immediately after his return.



THE BUDGET


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. W. H. McMillan (Welland):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Finance. Since the house will today pass the last piece of legislation flowing from the baby budget, may I ask the minister when the Canadian people should prepare themselves for more bad news expected by way of another budget?


Hon. Donald M. Fleming (Minister of Finance):: Mr. Speaker, I am sorry but I heard only about one word in ten that the hon. member uttered. I wonder whether he would be good enough to put his question again.


William Hector McMillan: I will repeat my question. Since the house will today pass the last piece of legislation flowing from the baby budget, may I ask the minister when the Canadian people should prepare themselves for more bad news expected by way of another budget?


Mr. Speaker:: There are certain aspects of the question which perhaps I should deal with before the minister deals with the kernel of an inquiry concealed therein. The first part with respect to whether the house will pass a bill today is hypothetical and the second part, of course, makes a positive statement which does not indicate a search for information.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, may I say that on the basis of my past record I think the hon. member knows well that I am always a harbinger of good news, not bad news.



CONGRATULATIONS TO MR. SPEAKER ON BIRTHDAY ANNIVERSARY

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Donald Methuen Fleming: While I am on my feet, Mr. Speaker, I should like to acquaint the house with the

fact that this is a very important day. It happens to be the 61st birthday of the Speaker of the House of Commons, and I know we would all wish-


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Donald Methuen Fleming: To complete my sentence, I am sure all members would wish to extend to you their very hearty congratulations and best wishes for many happy returns of the day.


Mr. Speaker:: I thank hon. members, and particularly the minister for completing his sentence.
(Translation):



DOMINION-PROVINCIAL RELATIONS QUEBEC    REPORTED STATEMENT BY MEMBER OF LEGISLATURE

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. P. Deschatelets (Maisonneuve-Rose-mont):: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of Transport? Has the minister seen, in this morning's Gazette, a statement made yesterday by the Quebec leader of the opposition, in which he criticizes and rejects joint programs between Quebec and Ottawa, which will involve expenditures of about $141 million? As a leader of the Conservative party in Quebec, does the minister share the views of Mr. Talbot on this matter?


Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker, I have not read the article referred to.


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Mr. Speaker, may I ask-
(Text):


Mr. Speaker:: If the hon. member will reflect on his question I think he will conclude that it is not in accordance with our usual practice to have such questions, and that therefore a supplementary would be out of order.
(Translation):


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Transport. Could he tell us whether or not he and his Quebec colleagues in the cabinet favour the joint program between Quebec and Ottawa?


Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker, I have not read that article in the Gazette, but I am quite familiar with the part of the speech which is being referred to. In fact, that part of Mr. Talbot's
90205-6-240
Inquiries of the Ministry speech contained a statement to the effect that, in his opinion, it was somewhat ill-beseeming for the Quebec premier to sign all those agreements and, immediately afterwards, to denounce them.


An hon. Member:: That is true.



TRANS-CANADA AIR LINES MONTREAL  REPORTED INSTRUCTIONS RESPECTING USE OF FRENCH LANGUAGE

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Louis Foriin (Monimagny-LTslel):: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Transport. I assume the minister has this morning read a letter dated April 18 which appeared in La Presse under the signature of Marc Theberge of Montreal.
Mr. Theberge complains that Trans-Canada Air Lines in Montreal have refused him information in the French language. The official involved, one Mr. Dagenais, allegedly stated that he had orders to this effect from the company and would be threatened with dismissal if he failed to comply.
Would the minister investigate the matter, which I consider most important, and if the facts alleged by Mr. Theberge are found to be true, would the minister see that this official, who has shown such poor judgment, stop treating French Canadians, particularly in Quebec, like a bunch of idiots.


Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for calling my attention to this letter. I must say, in the first place, that in view of the ridiculous allegations contained in that letter, I have serious doubts as to their truth. In any event, I shall order a full investigation of the matter.



PUBLIC SERVICE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Lucien Cardin (Richelieu-Vercheres):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Associate Minister of National Defence. Could the minister comment upon a newspaper report to the effect that the minister intends to accept an invitation to become ambassador to Portugal?


Joseph Pierre Albert Sévigny: Mr. Speaker, with all due deference to any wishes of my hon. friend from Richelieu-Vercheres, I intend to have a long and fruitful political career.
3798	HOUSE OF
Inquiries of the Ministry CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION



STATEMENT ON TRIP TO EUROPE FOR INTERVIEW

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert: Mr. Speaker, on March 22 the hon. member for Montmagny-L'Islet (Mr. Fortin) asked a question about the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. I now have the answer to that question.
The news service of the C.B.C. French network has a permanent special envoy in Paris whose services, for the last 18 months, have ranged through Europe, Africa and the Middle East. The C.B.C. also hires a certain number of free-lance journalists, but these merely manage to answer specific requirements of news services from day to day. For its public affairs programs, the C.B.C. calls upon other newspapermen, career journalists, preferably Canadians, for major reporting and interviewing of contemporary outstanding personalities. When a Canadian journalist is sent abroad, his assignment covers several established programs. It was for such a purpose that Mr. Gerard Pelletier was sent to North Africa to produce several programs.
Under the circumstances, the extra travelling expenses between Algeria and Geneva, since Mr. Pelletier was practically on the spot, were not very considerable.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: What did they amount to? (Text):



TRANSPORT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Paul Theodore Hellyer: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that the Minister of Public Works is in Toronto today opening postal station E for the second time, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Finance. Is the Minister of Finance in a position to say whether the government has agreed to make the loan requested by the corporation of metropolitan Toronto to accelerate the construction of an east-west subway?


Donald Methuen Fleming: A letter has been written to Mr. Gardiner, the chairman of the council of metropolitan Toronto, by the Prime Minister in respect to that subject. It is dated April 17.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask a supplementary question. Would the Minister of Finance say that the brief answer was no?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, the purport of the letter is that the case put forward by the city of Toronto cannot possibly qualify under existing legislation.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: I would like to ask one further supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Does the minister propose to introduce legislation which would make such a loan possible?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, if the government should form such an intention I am sure the hon. member would learn of it as soon as other hon. members, if he was in his place in the house at the appropriate time.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: I will be a lot older than I am now.



INQUIRIES FOR RETURNS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
William Moore Benidickson: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of my usual deskmate, who has suffered a grievous loss today, I have been asked to ask either the Minister of Public Works or his parliamentary secretary to refer to Hansard at page 3659, and request an early reply to that request for information with respect to federal-provincial negotiations.


Yvon-Roma Tassé: Mr. Speaker, in the temporary absence of the minister, I will draw it to his attention on his return.


Mr. Hubert Badanai (Fort William):: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Secretary of State. I would like to ask the secretary when this house can expect an answer to my question No. 132 which was passed as an order for return on March 22, 1961. The question was as follows:
1.	What was the amount of money spent on advertising by each department of government during the calendar year 1960?
2.	What was the value of advertising placed by those departments with each advertising agency which received such business from the government during the calendar year 1960?


Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker, I will draw this question to the attention of the Secretary of State.



CUSTOMS TARIFF

Donald Methuen Fleming: the third reading of Bill No. C-72, to amend the Customs Tariff.


William Moore Benidickson: Mr. Speaker, I simply want to make a short comment. The Minister of Finance was gracious last night at five minutes to ten in allowing an adjournment with respect to this motion for second reading.


Mr. Bell (Carlelon):: This is the other bill.


Donald Methuen Fleming: May I point out to the hon. gentleman that we are on Bill No. C-72, an act to amend the Customs Tariff.


William Moore Benidickson: We are talking at the moment, Mr. Speaker, I take it on third reading of the bill to amend the Customs Tariff. That is perfectly correct. I misunderstood the arrangement. The next item will be the matter of the estates tax agreement with the United States.


Mr. Speaker:: Is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion?


Some hon. Members:: Carried.


Hazen Robert Argue: On division.


Mr. Speaker:: Carried on division.
Motion agreed to on division and bill read the third time and passed.



ESTATE TAX


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed, from Tuesday, April 18, consideration of the motion of Mr. Fleming (Eglinton) for the second reading of Bill No. C-82, to implement a convention between Canada and the United States of America for the avoidance of double taxation and the prevention of fiscal evasion with respect to taxes on the estates of deceased persons.
William Moore Benidickson: Mr. Speaker, we are now on second reading of a bill with respect to a tax agreement by treaty with the United States for the avoidance of double taxation. As I understand it, this agreement results from an attempt by Canada, and other countries with which Canada is in close touch in these matters, to avoid double taxation. Of course, I understand that the rather radical revision of our law with respect to estates of deceased persons in 1958 made this agreement necessary. We even changed our terminology from succession duty act to estates tax.
Hon. members in assembly here will recognize that the effective date of the new policy was to be January 1, 1959. Before the debate is concluded I would hope that the Minister of Finance (Mr. Fleming) would indicate to us all what the effect has been since January 1, 1959, and the enactment of this law relating to estates that are dealt with in the legislation before us. Under the old provisions which many members of this house discussed in 1958 in the banking and commerce committee under the chairmanship of the hon. member for York North (Mr. Cathers), we 90205-6-240i
Estate Tax
then were aware that $5,000 of estate was exempt from taxation on both sides of the border if owned by a decedent on either side of the border. However, I believe this was a disappearing exemption to the extent that, if it was $6,000 in ownership in a country other than the residence of the decedent- Canada or the United States and vice versa- a tax was applicable on the whole amount of the estate.
I do not think that situation is changed under this tax treaty. However, as I understand it-and I hope the minister will inform me and the country about this matter-instead of what we talked about in the committee of banking and commerce in 1958 as a $5,000 fundamental exemption, we now have here before us a $15,000 fundamental exemption. In other words, if a Canadian resident has assets in the United States valued at $15,000 at his death, there would be no tax payable in the United States on those assets; and vice versa, if a resident of the United States had assets in Canada valued at less than $15,000, under the treaty there would be no tax payable on those assets in Canada. I should like to hear the minister say something about that matter in order to see whether it confirms the conception we have on this side of the house. I understand that hitherto, in the assessment of an estate, charitable deductions-even charitable deductions of a kind that would be recognized for tax deduction in this country-would not in the case of a United States resident have been recognized for deduction if the charity was one operating in the United States. Perhaps the minister would confirm that understanding. He may have made that matter clear in his statement on February 17th.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Yes; I dealt with it in that statement.


William Moore Benidickson: Apart from that, I think there is very little disagreement about the desirability of extending, as widely and as rapidly as we can do so, tax agreements with other friendly countries which make it possible for business to be conducted or for assets to be taken over in countries other than the country of residence and to assure that there will not be double taxation of estates after death.
I have personally received no complaint with respect to this particular bill and the negotiations that have resulted since we changed our estate law in 1958. I should like the minister to make some comment as to what happens between January 1, 1959, and the enactment of the present law in so far as the present bill varies the formerly existing legislation passed as a result of the former treaty.

Estate Tax


Mr. Speaker:: I must inform the house that if the minister speaks now he will close the debate.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker I think I can be brief. With respect to the question which principally occupied the speech of the hon. member for Kenora-Rainy River, as to what happens with respect to estates between January 1, 1959 and the present time, may I draw his attention to article 15 of the convention which provides that the convention shall be deemed to have come into effect on the first day of January, 1959 and that it shall apply only with respect to estates of decedents dying on or after that date.


William Moore Benidickson: Refunds might be possible; is that right?


Donald Methuen Fleming: In other words, the estates of persons dying before January 1, 1959, will be governed entirely by the 1944 convention.
With respect to the estates of persons dying on or after January 1, 1959, they will be governed by the new convention which is part of the bill now before the house.
The hon. member asked about the position of charitable organizations under the bill. I did deal with this matter in my statement to the house on February 17. The particular matter was touched on at page 2146 of Hansard.
I may say that article III, paragraph 2 of the convention does contain a new feature in this regard. The effect is that where Canada allows a deduction for a bequest to a charitable organization in Canada, as it now does under the Estate Tax Act, it will also allow a deduction for a bequest to any charitable organization in the United States that would have qualified according to the Canadian definition of a charitable organization if it had been in Canada. In other words the international border, for this purpose, is now being ignored.
This provision is reciprocal and will bring Canadian practice into line with long standing United States' practice. It will, of course, be beneficial to the estates of Canadian domi-ciliaries where a bequest of this kind has been made.
I think those remarks cover the points raised by the hon. member.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Flynn in the chair.

On clause 1-Short title.
William Moore Benidickson: Mr. Chairman, perhaps the Minister of Finance would comment on a matter which is not strictly relevant to this bill.
Was I correct last night, in commenting briefly on this item during second reading of this bill, when I said we would perhaps require another piece of legislation that would relate to the baby budget, as some of us call it, of December 20 and the withholding taxes related thereto? Will that require a revision of another form of treaty between Canada and the United States?


Donald Methuen Fleming: No, Mr. Chairman.


William Moore Benidickson: Am I correct in thinking that with respect to the revision of our law in 1958 regarding taxation on estates of deceased persons, under other tax treaties with most countries across the world no legislative revision was necessary, but there is something in the United States-Canadian tax treaty that makes this bill imperative and necessary?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Yes, Mr. Chairman, having regard to the purposes of the legislation.


William Moore Benidickson: With respect to mutual agreement by conventions between Canada and other countries, with what other countries have we tax agreements that will not involve, as are involved here, legislative changes because of what this parliament did in 1958 when it radically revised our estates tax system?
With how many countries have we conventions with respect to the avoidance of double taxation that have not, because of their context, required any parliamentary review since 1958, such as is required here?
I ask this question because I understand that the agreement with the United States was tied in fairly definitely with the dominion succession duty act, which was abolished by the action of this parliament in 1958.


Donald Methuen Fleming: As I pointed out last night in introducing the motion for second reading, Canada has at the present time conventions with the United Kingdom, France, Ireland and South Africa as well as the 1944 convention with the United States.
The 1944 convention was the first of these conventions that Canada entered into with another country with respect to the avoidance of double taxation, and it related specifically to the dominion succession duty act.
The later conventions with the other four countries were broader in their terms and also took account of similar legislation. Consequently no amendment is required in the

conventions with the four countries I have named, and the enactment of the Estate Tax Act has resulted accordingly only in the revision of the convention with the United States.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Chairman, as I understand it this particular convention supersedes anything in the Estate Tax Act that is inconsistent with legislation in the United States.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Chairman, this present convention, if given legislative sanction by parliament, will supersede any provision in the Estate Tax Act which is inconsistent with the terms of the convention.


William Moore Benidickson: With what we are enacting today?


Paul Joseph James Martin: That was the point I had in mind, because the Estate Tax Act, unwittingly I am sure as far as the minister and the house are concerned, failed to take account of the situation that confronted many taxpayers in the United States who have property in Canada. I think the minister will find that this is right.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I can assure the hon. member that this was not overlooked. It was well understood at the time.
In the banking and commerce committee, I think it was, when the bill which later became the Estate Tax Act was under review, this matter was discussed and mention was made of the intention of the government to negotiate a further convention with the United States which would take account of the change in the situation brought about by the enactment of the Estate Tax Act.


Paul Joseph James Martin: But the fault was not because of an agreement between Canada and the United States. For instance, if the full implications of the treaty of 1944 had been followed the omission in the Estate Tax Act would not have occurred.
This was a matter of very great concern to my section of the country, adjacent as it is to the United States, where thousands of people have property along the great lakes, which they use during the summer months. They are a source of considerable income to southwestern Ontario. I am sure this situation applies to many other parts of Canada.
Now the matter is to be corrected, and this is of course welcomed. However, it seems to me there has been a very long delay in arriving at a culmination of the negotiations-


William Moore Benidickson: Since 1958.


Paul Joseph James Martin: -since 1958. I recall asking the minister a number of times when we might expect some finality between the two governments with respect to this
Estate Tax
matter. Although on one occasion I got from the minister some correspondence which was encouraging, I was never able to elicit from him in the house anything which was correspondingly optimistic.


Donald Methuen Fleming: You should stick to correspondence. That is the moral.


Paul Joseph James Martin: That may be true. If the subsequent acts of the minister were consistent with the correspondence, that observation would be very pertinent. But that was not the situation.
There must be some reason why there has been this long delay since 1958. My reason for making these observations arises from concern over the situation which affected thousands of people in southwestern Ontario as well as in other parts of Canada and in the United States. What were the reasons for the delay in reaching a successful outcome of these negotiations? It was said at one meeting of the tax foundation by a distinguished lawyer that the Canadian negotiators were dilatory. I do not know that it was said that the minister was dilatory, but the minister must accept responsibility for any delay on the part of the negotiating team. In any event, there was a long delay from the time these discussions began. The minister first gave us an assurance that this matter would be dealt with at an early date, and I should like the hon. gentleman to explain now why the delay has been so protracted. Was it because he himself was so preoccupied that he was not able to give instructions to our negotiators, or was it the fault of the other side? In any event there has been widespread criticism of the government's failure to act constructively and rapidly with regard to these negotiations and in these circumstances I think some explanation should be given.


Donald Methuen Fleming: There has been no delay and no dilatoriness. Negotiations with the United States with a view to such a convention as is now before the committee began in September 1958, just after the Estate Tax Act was enacted and before the proclamation of that act brought it into effect. The negotiations proved difficult, but they were completed, as the convention indicates, and signed on February 17 of this year. That is not an unusual length of time to require for negotiations with respect to such a tax agreement as this. If the hon. gentleman would look back to the days when he was a minister he might recall that negotiations between Canada and other countries with respect to similar conventions very often occupied two years.

Estate Tax


Paul Joseph James Martin: May I just say I have had some correspondence in connection with this matter, not only with the minister but with others, over the difficulties which arose through failure to arrive at an earlier understanding with the United States authorities. As of January 1, 1959, we know that the tax convention between the United States and Canada with regard to the elimination of double succession duties had ceased to exist. The reason, of course, was that the former treaty, the treaty conceived and executed in 1944, applied only in the case of the dominion succession duty act which was superseded by the Estate Tax Act. I had asked the minister in the house what was the nature of the negotiations which were under way and if there was any reason to expect an early settlement of the matter. The minister replied in the house-I do not have the exact reference to Hansard-that that was the case.
Subsequently, I had some correspondence with one of the departmental officials as late as March 16, 1959. I was told then that a tax convention was being negotiated but that the negotiations were not then complete. I believe the minister said I had had some experience in these matters-


Donald Methuen Fleming: I did not say the
hon. gentleman had had experience in these particular matters.


Mr. Marlin (Essex Easl):: I thought the minister said I was a member of the government, and I assumed that was what he meant. Well, I have had some experience with negotiations, though not on behalf of the Department of Finance, and I do not believe the minister has given us a satisfactory reply as to why there has been this long waiting period. This delay has had some consequences of serious account to us in ssex county. Some withdrawals have taken place -not as many, perhaps, as one would have anticipated, but nevertheless there have been some. It is hard to explain why results should not have been achieved more quickly, particularly since we have had a pattern treaty since 1944 and other treaties with other countries, including France, as the minister mentioned last night in his statement of explanation which appears in Hansard. However. I can do no more than say it does seem to me there has not yet been a satisfactory explanation given of the delay in bringing about a settlement of matters leading to this convention.


William Hector McMillan: I should like to ask the minister what has happened to the processing of involved estates from January 1, 1959, up until today or, at least, until the signing of the convention. Perhaps I might also ask

another question. As reported on page 2145 of Hansard the minister said the taxes included in the scope of the new convention are the Canadian estate tax, the United States estate tax and other taxes of a substantially similar character. I should like to know what those other taxes are.
Further on in his remarks, the minister said:
However, the United States which uses a schedule of graduated rates, is not obliged to restrict its rates; instead it is required to allow a deductible exemption of $2,000 in all cases where the property is valued at more than $15,000.
I wonder if, in that particular case, that would be advantageous to Canada or not.


Donald Methuen Fleming: The dominion succession duty act is still in effect. No doubt it will be in effect for a long time to come. It is still the legislation which governs the tax for federal purposes on estates of persons who died in Canada before January 1, 1959. The Estate Tax Act applies only to the estates of persons dying on or after January 1, 1959. So, as to what has happened since January 1, 1959, I may say that with respect to the estates of persons who died before January 1, 1959, their cases are still dealt with under the dominion succession duty act and so far as the United States property is concerned they are still governed by the convention of 1944 and will continue to be so. As to what has happened since January 1, 1959, with respect to estates of persons who died on or after January 1, 1959, I may say that these cases have not been closed pending the negotiation of this convention, and wide publicity was given to the fact that these negotiations were being carried on.
As I mentioned earlier, when the bill respecting the estate tax was before parliament at the 1958 session, it was made known that it was the government's intention to undertake negotiations with the United States with a view to a new convention applicable to the estates of persons dying on or after January 1, 1959. If this bill is passed, the final clause of the convention provides that the convention shall be deemed to have come into effect and been applicable from January 1, 1959.


Mr. Smiih (Lincoln):: I should like to get from the minister some direct clarification of my own understanding of this bill. In the riding which I represent there are several large corporations, which are subsidiaries of United States companies, whose employees are allowed to purchase stock during their working years. Recently, we have had problems arising from the fact an estate was faced with double taxation in connection with the stock because it was United States stock. Will

the passage of this bill eliminate those problems-of course, subject to the amount of stock held in U.S.A. being not over $15,000.


Donald Methuen Fleming: It would be very difficult for me to give a definite answer to a question of that kind without having a great deal more information about the circumstances of the individual case about which the hon. member is inquiring. I may say in general terms, however, that the purpose of the present measure is to avoid double taxation; that is, as between Canada and the United States. The specific terms of this convention would have to be examined with respect to the particular facts of each case to determine the result; but the purpose of the convention is to avoid double taxation, and that is its effect within the terms of the convention.


Paul Joseph James Martin: As the minister said when he spoke just a few moments ago, the result is that this bill provides for a retroactive feature, but as of what date?


William Moore Benidickson: January 1, 1959.


Paul Joseph James Martin: This legislation comes into effect as of that date; in other words, the retroactivity goes back to that date? What is the situation in respect of estates which have been disposed of in the meantime, where the amount owing to the crown or to the people of the United States has been agreed on? What is the position of the beneficiaries of the estate or of anyone in any way affected by the estate with regard to the settlement made, say, within the last 12 months?


Donald Methuen Fleming: These will all be adjusted on application in accordance with the terms of the new convention.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I have two questions to ask the minister. Will the minister explain to the committee the difference between a treaty and a convention? Does one have to do with water and the other with money? Second, while we realize that this is the usual procedure and practice with respect to arrangements to avoid double taxation between various countries, has any consideration ever been given to an international approach to this question through the United Nations by which there would gradually come a more or less international form and practice with respect to taxation and matters of that kind?


Donald Methuen Fleming: With respect to international agreements, the vogue is to employ the term "convention" where the subject matter of the agreement is taxation or matters of that nature.
As to the second question, I would think it is sufficiently complex now trying to negotiate
Estate Tax
bilateral agreements with other countries in such situations without undertaking a multilateral approach to this type of problem.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I am not suggesting it would be practical at the present time; I only wondered whether there had been any consideration given to an approach, something like that which we have with respect to meteorological services and things of that sort, to get a standard practice, say, throughout the western world?


Donald Methuen Fleming: I understand that in one of the committees of O.E.E.C. some consideration was given to this problem, but I think I may suggest to the hon. member that it will not be easy. However, I would not exclude the possibility of study being given to such a question under the auspices of the reconstituted O.E.C.D.


William Moore Benidickson: Am I right in thinking that under the radical revision of succession duties made in 1958 with respect to assets of a United States resident with interest in Canada, under no circumstances would the tax be more than 15 per cent of those assets in Canada? If this is so-


Donald Methuen Fleming: That is correct, provided that he was domiciled outside of Canada.


William Moore Benidickson: Yes. The desire was to have some simplification of these matters. In so far as the convention between Canada and the United States is concerned, we are not on comparable grounds in all respects. For instance, this 15 per cent over-all tax represents our method of assessing our tax on the assets in Canada of a United States domiciled deceased person, but it would not necessarily be the way that a Canadian deceased person's estate would be treated if he had assets in the United States. Will the minister indicate to the committee what the rates of duty might be in the other circumstance? Am I right in thinking that perhaps those rates of duty, depending of course, upon the volume of assets left by the deceased, might range from perhaps 3 per cent to 77 per cent?
I do not recall referring to this matter when I spoke on second reading following the minister. I do not think I referred to the question of whether or not Canada and the United States, as a result of adopting this convention, will be in harmony in the matter of the definitions of situs of property. Perhaps the minister mentioned this on February 17. I am frank to say I have not read his remarks within the last few days. We are not in harmony with respect to tax rates- that is agreed-on the same amount of assets that might be left by a resident of the United

Estate Tax
States in Canada. In our case we have simplified this thing to 15 per cent. With respect to definitions of situs of property, will the minister indicate whether or not we have more or less harmony between the two jurisdictions in this matter?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Chairman, estate taxes in the two countries are, of course, different. This is one of the features that sometimes make the negotiation of a convention of this kind a very complicated matter. In the Estate Tax Act parliament approved the adoption of the flat 15 per cent tax on Canadian property of persons domiciled abroad.


William Moore Benidickson: Regardless of the quantum.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Yes. Well, there is, of course, the basic exemption of $5,000 that is given under the Canadian legislation.


William Moore Benidickson: Now $15,000.


Donald Methuen Fleming: We will come to that. The United States federal estate tax, of course, is different. The rates under that tax rise from 3 per cent to a maximum of 77 per cent and there is an exemption of $2,000 in the case of a taxable estate. This is the beginning from which the convention negotiations follow.
Under the new convention, as we will see when we come to the articles, provision is made for a comparable treatment of assets in either case, that is to say, persons domiciled in the United States dying with assets in Canada or persons domiciled in Canada dying with assets in the United States.
With respect to situs, Mr. Chairman, there have been differences in the rules for determination of situs as between the two jurisdictions up to the present time but one of the achievements of this convention is a harmonization of the rules for determination of situs of assets in the two countries for the purposes of this convention.


[Stage Direction]
Clause agreed to.
Clauses 2 and 3 agreed to.
On clause 4-Orders and regulations.
William Moore Benidickson: Is this comparable to the 1944 treaty? Is there any extension of executive powers?


Donald Methuen Fleming: This is the standard form of bill that we have been employing for some time with respect to these conventions.


William Moore Benidickson: But it is equivalent to what was in the basic treaty with the United States with respect to estate matters, which 
I think the minister said was made in 1944? Does the cabinet get any greater opportunity under this clause than they had under the old enactment?


Donald Methuen Fleming: I cannot speak positively without having the 1944 statute before me. I have with me the convention but not the statute that gave legislative sanction to the convention. However, I can tell the hon. member that this form follows that used with respect to the four other conventions to which I referred earlier.


[Stage Direction]
Clause agreed to.
Clause 5 agreed to.
Schedule agreed to.
The Chairman:: Shall the title carry?


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Chairman, we passed over the schedule very quickly and I should like to refer to article VIII. The word "decedent" is used there to indicate, I presume, a person who has gone to his Maker. What is the reason for the use of that rather unusual word instead of the word "deceased"?


Donald Methuen Fleming: "Decedent" is the word that is more commonly employed in the United States than in this country. We are more accustomed to use the word "deceased". I think there is a point here in favour of the use of the word "decedent" because we are speaking here of persons who may die in the future. We can speak of them as decedents whereas it may not yet be quite so correct to speak of them as deceased. I might say that "decedent" is a word that seems to be coming into greater use, and it emanates from the United States where it is the practice to use that word.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I must say that I am rather sorry to see this linguistic intrusion from the United States which is further evidence of their influence even upon the statutes of this parliament.


William Hector McMillan: When we were dealing with clause 4 I let the matter of the inconsistencies with respect to the laws of the two countries pass hoping that- I would find an explanation in the schedule. The United States tax on estates over $15,000 is different from that of Canada. I wondered how that matter was harmonized. They have a graduated scale with an initial exemption of $2,000 but their scale of rates is certainly different from that in Canada.


William Moore Benidickson: Would the minister also advise the committee as to what efforts were made by the negotiators to try to harmonize this matter? The hon. member for Welland has made more clearly the point I tried to

make. We have a flat rate of 15 per cent with respect to the maximum tax that would be levied against the Canadian assets of a resident of the United States but that is not in harmony, as the hon. member for Welland said, with the situation in the United States. If a Canadian dies owning assets in the United States and the value of his estate is high he may have to pay to the United States on his assets in that country not a tax of 15 per cent like ours but a tax as high as 77 per cent. Is that the minister's understanding?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Yes. The convention harmonizes the rules and avoids double taxation with respect to estates up to a value of $15,000. In the case of estates beyond that figure, of course, the rates that are provided in the general tax legislation will apply. I say that to the hon. member for Welland. This convention is designed particularly to deal with the situation of estates of a value up to $15,000 that would lend themselves to the exchange of concessions of the kind that this convention makes. As the hon. member for Kenora-Rainy River points out, if we enter into the realm of property having a value beyond $15,000 and are speaking of property located in Canada and owned by a person dying domiciled in the United States, the United States rates range up to 77 per cent at the maximum, whereas the Canadian rate is 15 per cent on the gross value of the property in Canada owned by a foreign domiciliary.


[Stage Direction]
Title agreed to.
Bill reported.
Mr. Deputy Speaker:: When shall the said bill be read the third time?


William Moore Benidickson: Next sitting.


Donald Methuen Fleming: By leave, now.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Mr. Fleming (Eglinton), seconded by Mr. Starr, moves that the said bill be now read the third time.


William Moore Benidickson: No. I said next sitting, Mr. Speaker.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Next sitting of the house.



VOCATIONAL REHABILITATION


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Tuesday, March 14, consideration in committee of the following resolution-Mr. Starr-Mr. Flynn in the chair:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to authorize the Minister of Labour, with the approval
90205-6-241
Vocational Rehabilitation of the governor in council, to enter into agreements with provinces to provide for the sharing of costs incurred by the provinces in carrying out programs of vocational rehabilitation for disabled persons; to authorize the minister to undertake the co-ordination of federal activities in the field of vocational rehabilitation and to undertake research in respect to vocational rehabilitation; and for those purposes to provide for the establishment of a council to be called the national advisory council on the rehabilitation of disabled persons; and to provide further for the payment of the chairman's remuneration and of the travelling and other expenses of the members thereof and for such professional, technical, secretarial and other assistance as the council may require.
Murdo William Martin: Mr. Speaker, in the few minutes at my disposal on March 14, the last opportunity we had to debate this resolution, I was in the process of expressing hope that this particular resolution would amount to something and not just be further window dressing. I think there is need for real effort on the part of all hon. members for progress in this particular field. This is another field where we have seen far too often what I like to describe as one of the greatest national problems, the problem of self-delusion. I should like to give an illustration of what I mean.
In my constituency we have a television station which presents a program each Thursday night between 10.30 and 11 called "Northern Neighbours". This program is sponsored by the local mine managers' association in the Porcupine-Matheson mining district, and is put forward as a public relations effort. One full program on a Thursday evening was devoted to the promotion of the march of dimes. We all realize that the march of dimes is an organization which devotes its efforts, money and resources to alleviating the problems of disabled individuals.
The self-delusion of which I speak is illustrated by the fact that on the very morning of the day that this march of dimes program appeared I received a telephone call from a local doctor who requested me to use my efforts in an attempt to alleviate the distress of a local miner who was forced to stay away from work for a considerable period of time as the result of a heart attack. A heart attack of this kind is a disability, just as a broken leg or back is a disability. The doctor informed me that he felt a rest of four to six months would allow the man to recover without permanent damage and would enable him to return to work. Then, with proper care, he could carry on his duties and provide for himself and his family. The problem that arose was how the man would maintain himself and family for a period of four to six months without being able to work. The miners in that area, as in many other places, have sickness and accident policies which cover them for a limited period

Vocational Rehabilitation of time. At the end of this time the employee must work at least one day in order to reinstate himself for coverage under this policy for an additional period.
The doctor in question, who was familiar with this requirement, against his better judgment, sent the man back to work for the one day required in order to requalify himself. The miner went back to work for one day at which time he was fired by the company. That same night the company, with others, purchased the half-hour of television time devoted to promoting the march of dimes which, as I have said, devotes its energy to the alleviation of the plight of disabled persons.
I feel that example indicates how we have deluded ourselves. I am sure there are many well meaning people in this group who would be horrified if this situation were brought to their attention. I think this is the kind of thing which was in the mind of that great Scottish poet, Robbie Burns, many years ago when he wrote the following:
Oh wad some power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as others see us!
It wad frae monie a blunder free us,
An' foolish notion.
I think in cases like this we should realize that it is not enough to make gestures without carrying out the action to give them some meaning. Unfortunately, we have seen far too much of this type of thing done by the present government. It has made gestures in many directions, many of which have not achieved the intended result. We have seen the government make gestures with regard to a winter works program for the alleviation of the unemployment situation, but in spite of that we have had one of the worst unemployment situations since the Liberal rule in 1938. We have seen the advancement of a vocational training program by this government, but every day there are more individuals thrown out of work than this program can cope with. We have seen this government bring in many patches of legislation directed to our railway problems, yet we received just a week ago the report of a royal commission which shows that in spite of these patches of legislation the situation grows worse. In some instances the report shows clearly that these patches of legislation have aggravated the situation rather than cured it.
The problem we are trying to cope with by this proposed resolution is a very important and urgent one. I appreciate this very much, coming from a riding with heavy industry, industry which has wet, heavy, dusty and unhealthy working conditions. We have a great number of employees in this area who have been disabled through back injuries, silicosis


and various other things. Many of these individuals receive partial pensions, while others receive no pension at all. The individuals receiving pensions are far from able to maintain themselves and their families. I feel it is not good enough for us to say that this is the responsibility of the compensation board, because these are responsibilities which we must accept. While the compensation board is in itself a good organization, it certainly is not capable of solving all the problems of these individuals.
I should like at this time to list six illustrations with which I became familiar last week end when I was at home. I know of one individual who has been off work for some 10 or 11 years on a silicosis pension of $100 per month. He has been attempting to maintain himself and his wife and provide his children with an education. I do not know how he has been able to do so, but at the present time he is in the process of putting his last daughter through teachers' college. He has done so with the $100 per month pension and whatever he could scrape and scrounge in addition.
Silicosis is a very disabling and crippling disease which does not permit an individual to carry on as a normal, healthy individual could.
In another case a former miner, who has been off work now for five years and has been struggling to make ends meet by operating a little country store, is alleged to have a heart condition but he is called in every six months for silicosis X-ray. He has no pension. Here is a man who is disabled and has been in that condition for five years.
There is the case of another man who lives just about a half a mile away, and who has a chest disability. He also has been off work for five years. Apparently he does not qualify for a silicosis pension from the compensation board because the extent of the silicosis has not reached the required percentage.
Another case is that of a young man, 30 years or 31 years of age, who two years ago was crippled in a car accident, has a broken back and will be confined to a wheel chair for the rest of his life. At the present time he is living at Golden Manor, the home for the aged at Timmins. Surely, under this program that is contemplated today, something can be done for people like these.
We have another case of a man who had two feet smashed while working in the bush. He cannot wear proper shoes. He certainly cannot carry on the job he has always done in the bush. He is badly in need of some kind of retraining in order to enable him to make his living and to get by in life with the disability he has.
The final case is that of a chap who suffered from poliomyelitis some years ago, and



APHIL 19. 1961

[Stage Direction]
who has one bad leg. He also is a bush worker. In the summertime when the ground is firm he can get around. However, as soon as winter comes and he is obliged to pull this crippled leg through the snow, he again is incapacitated.
I am sure that many other hon. members, like myself, have in their files in their offices literally hundreds of cases similar to the ones I have listed here. These were ones that were referred to me on one week end alone or one Saturday alone. I have literally hundreds of similar cases listed in my files. I am sure that other hon. members have at least an equal number and perhaps some of them have more.
This is one of the most serious problems we have to face in this country. The need is desperate in this field. I think we should realize that if some people say the costs involved would be very high, we should stop trying to delude ourselves, and we would find that the costs were not high at all. These costs are being met in any event. They are met or should be met at the present time through municipal welfare, through the assistance of their families and friends and through some other sources. I hope we really are going to take the bull by the horns and do a job in this field of trying to make the disabled people in this country a little better able to fend for themselves and for the communities in which they live.
Mr. Pitman:: It gives me great pleasure, Mr. Chairman, to take part in this debate. This resolution which has been brought down by the Minister of Labour has a great deal to commend it, and indeed I am sure it will receive the support of all hon. members. In bringing down this resolution the government, of course, is carrying on the work which is going on throughout the world. I should like to read from the recommendations concerning vocational rehabilitation of the disabled passed at the international labour conference of the international labour organization because I think they contain an important point which we certainly must remember:
Whereas there are many and varied problems concerning those who suffer disability, and
Whereas rehabilitation of such persons is essential in order that they be restored to the fullest possible physical, mental, social, vocational and economic usefulness of which they are capable, and
Whereas to meet the employment needs of the individual disabled person and to use manpower resources to the best advantage it is necessary to develop and restore the working ability of disabled persons by combining into one continuous and co-ordinated process medical, psychological, social, educational, vocational guidance, vocational training and placement services, including follow-up,
The conference recommends as follows:
I should like to read the second recommendation, which is as follows:
90205-6-241i
Vocational Rehabilitation 2. Vocational rehabilitation services should be made available to all disabled persons, whatever the origin and nature of their disability and whatever their age, provided they can be prepared for, and have reasonable prospects of securing and retaining, suitable employment.
I think this is extremely interesting. I wonder whether there has been full recognition, on the part of those drafting this measure, of the fact that simply preparing people through vocational rehabilitation to do a job and then not being able to provide that job can perhaps do more harm than good. I should like to ask this government, which evidently cannot find employment for people who need no rehabilitation and who are not disabled, whether they can promise that they can organize this economy in such a way that such employment can be found for disabled people who have had vocational rehabilitation. I hope so; because if not, what we are doing here today has very little meaning. I repeat that the international labour organization suggests that the disabled be prepared for jobs, provided that they have reasonable prospects of securing and retaining suitable employment.
Vocational rehabilitation has had both a long history and a short history in Canada. We can find this rehabilitation going on through the Department of Veterans Affairs since world war I and workmen's compensation boards in many provinces have been carrying on effective work for many years. Of course, we are reminded constantly of the work of private agencies. Yet, in many ways, Canada is far behind in this program. Prior to 1951 we had no real national vocational rehabilitation program whatsoever. What we had rather was a great mass of agencies, none of them really very well co-ordinated. We have come a long way in ten years, but we have a long way to go. I hope that the particular piece of legislation, which this resolution precedes will be a long stride in that direction and will give effect to the realization that we have to give those who are unfortunately disabled in our country the opportunity which they must have to take part in the economy.
We are reminded by the Department of National Health and Welfare that we are dealing with a considerable number of people in Canada. According to their booklet, over 500,000 people have been seriously or totally disabled. We are also dealing with a great deal of money, namely some $6 million voted by governments across Canada in support of this kind of rehabilitation activity, exclusive of what is being given to the veterans and to the injured through workmen's compensation. In dealing with this resolution which will allow the government to make arrangements with the provinces to share the

Vocational Rehabilitation costs of a larger, more comprehensive and more efficient kind of rehabilitation program, the government is assured of the support of this group. It is assured of that support for humanitarian reasons, of course. In a civilized country, a western democracy, we can do nothing else but do everything in our power to help those who through some misfortune have lost a limb, an eye or have been disabled in some other way. It is not charity. In a sense, it is merely enlightened self-interest.
I was interested in the statistics of the Department of Labour with regard to a group of disabled workmen who were rehabilitated. It was found that whereas previously only 41 were earning over $2,000 per annum, after rehabilitation over 720 were earning over $2,000 a year.
Only 107 of a given group were earning between $1,000 and $2,000 a year. There were 369 after rehabilitation. In other words, there was a considerable rise in the productivity of the individual, in his ability to support himself.
In a sense, what we are doing in passing a resolution of this kind is not really giving charity but simply indicating our interest, and indeed our self-interest, that these people will be able to play a real part in the economy of our nation.
Certainly we can give money to support them, but how much better it is to give them a means of contributing to the society in which they live. A change is indicated even in the kind of work these people are able to undertake. Whereas before rehabilitation only 39 were able to carry out what can be considered professional or managerial occupations, the figure rose to 123 after rehabilitation. The unskilled occupations of course went down from 215 to 94. These men were able to make perhaps an even greater contribution to the economy, as well as being able to support themselves.
Therefore I do not think the effect of vocational rehabilitation can be seriously questioned. However, we do need greater organization. The remarks of the Minister of Labour in introducing his resolution lead me to believe that the national government will give greater leadership to the provincial governments. It will co-ordinate the work of the Department of Health and Welfare, the Department of Labour and the Department of Veterans Affairs, the polio foundation, the Canadian National Institute for the Blind and a great many agencies which are working in this area of vocational rehabilitation.
Unfortunately it could be suggested that in the past there has been too much overlapping; that too many people have been collecting funds and the cost of collecting those funds


has in itself cancelled out the benefit, in a sense, because of course the costs of administration rise as you get several groups trying to obtain the same charity dollar from the individual Canadian. We hope that this overlapping, which has in the past been a disadvantage to rehabilitation, will be eliminated through the implementation of this resolution, and enable a real advancement to be made toward more effective action on the part of these agencies. We know this is essentially a provincial responsibility, but we are beginning to realize-and I hope we have already realized-that there are many things which are outside the resources of the provincial governments.
I hope this resolution will do something in the direction of assuring that those provinces which are less affluent will gain more money and greater opportunities.
We on this side of the house have been rather concerned about the darkening picture of dominion-provincial relations since this government took office. We are a little concerned that we are going back, as one provincial premier said, to the jungle of the 1930's and the 1940's. We certainly hope that equality of opportunity will still be the hallmark of this particular resolution, even if in other areas it appears that the government is going in other directions.
We hope that this equalization will not be eroded, to use a favourite word of the Minister of Finance (Mr. Fleming), any more than it has been by what has happened here in Ottawa in the last three months.
Part of this resolution deals with research in vocational rehabilitation. Job requirements are changing, and it may very well be that the activity in the area of automation will help the problem of those who are disabled and need vocational rehabilitation. As the activities in the physical sense decrease and the areas of mental excellence increase, the physically disabled will certainly have an advantage over what they now have.
However, I am concerned, and I am concerned as much in this area as I am in any other, that this government does not fully recognize what is going to happen. I am concerned that there will not be sufficient research into the whole strata of jobs, where industry is going, what industries are going to play a greater part in the Canadian economy, and what jobs are going to disappear over the next 10 or 20 years as a result of automation.
I hope that when these resolutions are put into effect we will not train disabled people, any more than we will train people who are able to carry on normal job activities, for jobs which will be obsolete within the next five, six or 10 years.

I wish I could see more activity in this area of research. I hope that one of the activities which will be carried on as a result of the passing of the legislation which will arise from this resolution will be a full scale attempt to find out not only what various groups of disabled can do, but exactly what jobs will be available in the economy of the 1970's and 1980's for these people.
The resolution ends with the suggestion that a national advisory council be set up. I think the Minister of Labour has already told us that this exists. I hope that sufficient professional personnel will be gathered in this national advisory council. I have the greatest admiration for those who work in the area of vocation rehabilitation, but sometimes I think we are overwhelmed by the cult of the amateur. I think helping the disabled is an area in which we need a great deal of professional assistance.
We took a great stride in our democratic system when we recognized that disabled people needed our help financially. We took another great stride when we realized that we should do everything in our power to help them lead a normal life. The third stride we must take on their behalf and on behalf of an even more efficient national economy is to remember that these people must have an opportunity to contribute to the fullest extent to the economy of the nation, thereby being able to contribute in a real way to the society in which they live.
I can assure the minister that this group will support these recommendations. We will support them in the hope that they will provide a more effective answer to the problem of vocational rehabilitation in Canada than we have today.
(Translation):


Joseph Pierre Albert Sévigny: Mr. Chairman, I should like to say a few words about the resolution now before the house. This resolution is altogether necessary considering the needs of the disabled persons in our country, those who unfortunately, for some reason, are afflicted with a disease that prevents them from finding a job as easily as those enjoying perfect health.
There is surely nothing so distressing as the sight of a very intelligent and talented man or woman having difficulty in finding a job, only because employers are rather reluctant to employ a handicapped person without any formal training. This is why it is absolutely essential to give help to those who unfortunately, through some congenital condition or otherwise, are afflicted with a disability which prevents them from holding in life the position they deserve by their intelligence or other talents.
Vocational Rehabilitation
It is certain that for the morale of those people, it would be very useful to teach them a trade that would enable them to fill an important position within society. It is all the more important as those who will be disabled in the future, following an accident or for some other reason, will, upon entering this new phase in their life, find immediate comfort in the thought that others like themselves suffering from some disability have been able, by means of a trade they learned, to find a place for themselves in our modern life.
The provinces will be responsible for providing those rehabilitation courses, for giving the training that will enable the disabled persons and other outcasts of fortune to learn a trade. May I be permitted to suggest that those who will attend to this in the provinces consider what was done in this field in France, in England and more particularly in Germany.
It is common knowledge today that, as a result of the calamitous second world war, millions of civilians in Europe were wounded, during bombardments or following the invasion of European territories.
In Germany, especially, millions of citizens lost a limb or became paralysed, and this deprived post-war Germany of manpower which it certainly needed for its rehabilitation and reconstruction. But then the country had the good fortune of seeing a genius rise in its midst, Ludwig Erdhart, who gave his country an economic program which allowed it to recover and to attain the enviable position it enjoys today. Well, part of the program designed by Erdhart and his lieutenants was directed toward the rehabilitation of the disabled who could not as easily find jobs as those who, luckily, were in perfect health.
A rehabilitation and retraining program was put into operation, if I am not mistaken, more or less around 1947. Through this scheme, a very high percentage of the disabled civilians who were then unemployed are now usefully employed in the industries of their respective countries.
I think the provincial governments would be wise to send people to those European countries to study the programs which have been put to the test over the past 15 years; I am sure this could be very useful and would help us to improve the measure that is being put forward. Surely, this measure is of exceptional merit and will be supported by every hon. member in this house.
3810	HOUSE OF
Vocational Rehabilitation
It has been my own fate to suffer a disability as a result of the war. I am thus in a position to state that on my return from the war, I took advantage of the rehabilitation services made available to me by the Department of Veterans Affairs and I was thus able, just as other war amputees of Canada, to adjust myself to a new kind of life. What was done in our case by the Department of Veterans Affairs, can be done for the civilians by the provincial governments.
I therefore commend this measure which will enable the federal government to cooperate with provincial governments with a view to helping those who, as a result of unfortunate circumstances beyond their control, now find themselves suffering from a physical handicap and perhaps are unable to play their part in today's world unless they are given assistance by the nation.
In closing my remarks, therefore, may I say that both for moral considerations and as a means of rehabilitating our disabled people, this program is essential, and I am sure it will be welcomed by every member of this house.
(Text):


Mr. Batten:: I rise to lend my support to this resolution, to make a few remarks in regard to this and, particularly, to compare the different parts of the resolution with the agreements which the federal government already has with most of the provinces of Canada.
Looking over this resolution I have been interested in finding a definition of the term "vocational rehabilitation". The word "rehabilitation" would suggest the meaning of returning someone to a former status. I do not think this meaning can be applied altogether to the word in this particular context, because it could also mean restoring somebody to a useful status-a status which he did not have before. After looking for a good definition of the term "vocational rehabilitation" for some time, I finally succeeded in finding one in a recommendation which was made by the international labour conference held in Geneva on June 1, 1955. On page 1 of a pamphlet which I have here, the term is defined as:
That part of the continuous and co-ordinated process of rehabilitation which involves the provision of vocational services such as vocational guidance, vocational training and selective place-
[Mr. Sevigny.l

ment designed to enable a disabled person to secure and retain stable employment.
The resolution which is before us purports to carry out a number of different objects. Taken in turn, they are as follows:
To authorize the Minister of Labour to enter into agreement with the provinces to share the cost of vocational rehabilitation of disabled persons; to co-ordinate federal activities in this field; to undertake research in respect of vocational rehabilitation; to provide a national advisory council, and to provide remuneration for the chairman and to pay other necessary expenses of this council.
It is indeed interesting to compare what this resolution tries to do with what can now be done under agreements with the provinces. Most of us will remember that before 1951 Canada had no rehabilitation program as such. There were organizations, both private and governmental, which were interested in this work, and one can well remember the rehabilitation services of the Department of Veterans Affairs, for example.
But it was not until 1951 that all these organizations met at a conference to decide what could be done on a larger scale for the rehabilitation of disabled persons in Canada. The host of organizations represented at this conference recommended that there should be some program which would co-ordinate the various services on different levels throughout all parts of the country. The result was that in 1953 the government of the day announced the rehabilitation of disabled persons agreements. It is interesting to compare the description of the federal rehabilitation assistance, as given on page 62 of the report of the Department of Labour for the year ended March 3, 1960, with this legislation. In the description of the services which were inaugurated in 1953, we find that the things which were provided then are very similar to the things which are to be provided by the proposed legislation. Therefore, Mr. Chairman, I would think there is very little new in this particular resolution. That, of course, is no reason why there should not be support for it. I do not think it would be proper for us to think that this resolution is doing something new and something which has not been done in Canada before.
In my own province of Newfoundland rehabilitation services present a very difficult problem not only in case finding and treatment, but also in training, retraining and placement. Many of our people live in small settlements scattered throughout more than 1,200 small communities along the coast.

Special arrangements which must be involved in case finding are sometimes feasible only during the summer months of the year. Suitable employment for those disabled persons who have been rehabilitated can only be found in the larger centres, with the result that those people have to seek employment opportunities away from home. But a more comprehensive rehabilitation program, improved communications, extended educational services, together with a general awareness of what the problem is, have all added to the greater efficiency of the service.
It is indeed rather difficult to single out any special service when one is talking about rehabilitation of disabled persons, but in my own home city of Corner Brook I would commend the fine work being done in rehabilitation by the West Coast Sanatorium, the institute for the blind and also the work being done by the new school for retarded children.
There is little need here to record the history of rehabilitation work done in the province of Newfoundland from the time of the organization of the sunshine camp association in 1937, the efforts at a training and rehabilitation program launched in 1944 by the Newfoundland tuberculosis association and the signing of the federal-provincial co-ordination agreement in 1954. Voluntary and private organizations, together with government at all levels, have provided the assistance so essential in any co-ordinated program.
I do not believe that any program of this nature can be really successful without the necessary research and research facilities which will provide the requisite and essential information. This resolution says that attempts will be made to provide research in the field of rehabilitation. I believe it is necessary, first of all, to decide how many people in Canada come within this class of persons. In 1951, when the population of Canada was about 14 millions there were something like 432,000 who were considered to be disabled persons. The other day my hon. friend from Burin-Burgeo gave figures which indicated that the number of disabled persons, not counting war veterans, would amount to about 2 per cent of the population. I do not think there is any reliable information today as to the actual number and type of disabled persons in the Canadian population. I think we need some research to determine how many there are. Next, we need some research to determine as accurately as possible what is the disability, what medical service may be necessary and what training would best suit those particular people. Having decided what training is best for them, then that training should be provided, while at the
Vocational Rehabilitation same time provide special training for those who need special training because of their special disability.
It is necessary next to do some research work among those people who are employers and to get them to realize that sometimes disabled people have just as many abilities as those who are not disabled. There should be research to find out where there are opportunities for people who are trained and to see that society does provide an ample number of jobs and job openings for those who have been trained by these co-ordinated programs.
We sometimes wonder what is the value of rehabilitation. Sometimes it is very difficult to decide just what the value is. It is not easy to measure the human values that accrue to somebody who has been disabled, who has received the benefit of a rehabilitation program and is thereafter able to lead an active, useful and happy life. It is difficult to measure that, but there are other measurements which indicate the work that can be done.
I was interested in reading the report of the Department of Labour for the fiscal year 1959-60 and in noting the figures in the tables on page 64. Here, reference is made to a group of 1,462 persons of whom at the time those tables were compiled full details were available. Before rehabilitation there were 39 of this group of 1,462 in the professional and managerial category. After rehabilitation there were 123. Before taking this training there were 422 in sales and service. After rehabilitation there were 717. Before taking this training there were 718 unskilled and without work. After the courses were completed, there were only 173 out of a total of 1,462.
One might go on and use tables which are given in this report to show the increased amounts of money which were earned by those who had been able to take advantage of the services offered under this rehabilitation program. There is no need to do that because I think it is evident to all that those who can take advantage of these rehabilitation services do benefit greatly from them. I would hope that whatever is done under our present scheme, whether we think of it in terms of the resolution now before us or the agreements that have been in effect with the provinces since 1953, there will be some coordination between the work done under this legislation and the work done under vocational training.
I believe that where possible disabled people should be trained in schools that provide training for those who are not disabled. I say that for two reasons. I believe that where it is possible to do so disabled people

Vocational Rehabilitation should be trained among the same type of people as those with whom they are going to work after their training is completed. My second reason for saying that these people should be trained in the ordinary vocational schools as far as possible, if that is the type of training they are going to take, is that it helps those who are not disabled to have a greater respect for those who are.
My final word on this subject is this. I do not believe that any program of this type will be successful in Canada or anywhere else for that matter until we realize that we must emphasize the abilities of people and not the disabilities.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Chairman, I rise to express my wholehearted support for the spirit and purpose of the resolution. Before proceeding with my brief remarks, I wish to say that I am sure we are all very pleased to see the hon. member for Essex East again sitting in his seat and looking well recovered from his past disability.
When it comes to a subject like the one now before us, I suppose it is quite correct to say that regardless of party we not only speak with our minds but through our hearts. I am sure that in their experience throughout the years all members of the house have witnessed some rather tragic cases of persons who, through some physical or mental disability, suffered unhappiness and were unable to earn their living or make any contribution thereto because provision had not been made to rehabilitate them, to retrain them and give them an opportunity to live under satisfactory circumstances in relation to their physical or mental disability.
I think that the major task in this country today is to create a social environment in which all Canadians, disabled and otherwise, have the ultimate in opportunity to lead free, creative, happy and purposeful lives. I trust that this resolution, which I presume will mean an expansion of these services, satisfactory financial arrangements and so on, will be another step toward that goal. We have been very slow to move in this direction, Mr. Chairman, when we consider what the majority of us enjoy and having in mind our productive capacity, our scientific knowledge and the facilities we have for the treatment of physical and mental diseases.
The first steps toward rehabilitation of the physically disabled and enabling these persons to earn their own living were taken in Great Britain in 1817 on a small scale but with excellent results. I think it is a shocking indication of the lackadaisical approach of the twentieth century that we should still have thousands of Canadians who are anxious

to make a contribution but are unable to do so because we have done so little to make it possible for them.
When it comes to the question of instituting and expanding a program of this type, without doubt knowledge is necessary and to obtain facts and knowledge, research and a survey of the situation are necessary. As far as the technical and scientific aspects of the problem are concerned, I think a great deal of expense can be avoided by reference to the work that has been undertaken in other countries. In recent years there has been some excellent work done in western European countries, the Scandinavian countries, Great Britain and to a lesser extent in the United States as in Canada. But that body of knowledge should produce a foundation of fact and experience which should make it unnecessary to spend large sums on research with respect to principles and their application. The research we require is research into Canadian circumstances and conditions that will make possible the application to Canadian conditions of knowledge already available.
In Canada we have a body of knowledge and experience in the work of the Department of Veterans Affairs in the treatment of disabled veterans with a great measure of success. We have it in the experience of the workmen's compensation boards across the country. I know that the workmen's compensation board of British Columbia has gained a great deal of experience since the second world war in the rehabilitation of disabled persons injured in industrial accidents. No doubt that experience is duplicated to some extent in other provinces. Then we have the experience gained under the federal-provincial program for the disabled which was instituted in 1953. There is a body of experience and knowledge there.
Furthermore, the subject is so important and is concerning more and more people to such an extent that international agencies have given considerable thought to the matter. Quite an extensive amount of research has been undertaken by UNESCO. In that respect I wish to quote briefly from a book entitled, "Welfare of the Disabled", published in 1957. On page 17 I read the following:
The United Nations educational, scientific and cultural organization has given attention to the education ot the handicapped, including the blind, in its program.
It goes on to deal with the question of research, the information received from various countries and so on. I suggest that there must be a great store of knowledge and information that can be obtained from

that organization. The book goes on to mention that there are plans for the establishment of three demonstration centres in different parts of the world in respect of the rehabilitation of disabled persons. The program is outlined and should be of interest to hon. members. The salient points are as follows:
1.	Joint planning with the specialized agencies and in consultation with the interested non-governmental organizations to develop a well co-ordinated international program for the rehabilitation of physically handicapped persons;
2.	Providing fellowships, scholarships and experts under the regularly established U.N. programs;
3.	Expanding facilities for the dissemination of information on rehabilitation and the preparation of training materials;
4.	Assisting in the exchange of knowledge and materials for the manufacture of all types of prosthetic devices.
There is a full chapter on the details of the program which UNESCO was instructed to undertake at that time. There is a tremendous body of knowledge and experience from which we can draw and apply to Canadian problems.
There are several aspects of rehabilitation. There is the question of rehabilitating young people who suffer from physical infirmities, some congenital, some acquired as a result of disease, and some resulting from accidents. I have in my experience known of two or three fine young men who were dying to find some position where they would have a purpose and would be able to maintain themselves. I know of one place where, after a great deal of difficulty, a position was found for a young man who had been very severely disabled, in that he had lost the use of both legs and one arm. However, he was able to sit at a desk handing out cards to persons entering a certain building. This job provided employment for this man for a few hours each day and transformed his life from one of unhappiness and a sense of loneliness to one of happiness with a sense of purpose and well-being.
We know of cases which exist, in which the compensation board officials take a very great interest, that are not covered by the benefits of the compensation board. I refer to farm workers. There are many young men on farms and in rural activities who have not had the opportunity of using the services of the compensation board but who should have the benefit of an extension in this necessary program. We know there are many blind individuals in this country, and we know of, and appreciate, the great work that has been done for them by the Canadian institute for the blind and others who are interested in their welfare and happiness. We realize the problems facing those individuals who have suffered from tuberculosis and who are
Vocational Rehabilitation able to undertake only limited and light physical activity. We also realize the existence of mentally disabled individuals.
I shall never forget the occasion when the case of a young mentally disabled or subnormal individual was brought to my attention. This individual had been maintained to a certain period of his life and then was taken out to a farm where he received, first of all, necessary affection, and was given some simple duty to perform. Once he had been shown how to do this he was able to carry on all day. Some thoughtfulness, consideration and concern for his welfare coupled with a spirit of understanding with regard to his requirements, solved the problem of this unfortunate, disabled person.
I have been very interested in this subject for years because I am always touched by those who have to go through life with these limitations. I think we have a first responsibility to these unfortunate citizens. In my opinion this program requires close co-operation between federal and provincial governments, as well as between those governments and voluntary organizations, because this is the type of work that legislation and government action cannot bring to complete fruition. It requires the support and co-operation of voluntary organizations, including churches, service organizations and the other organizations distributed throughout the land that would willingly assist in the expansion of the purposes of this program.
Third, I would suggest we must appeal to the minister to avoid taking a penurious point of view when considering the budget for this program, in view of our total production, total taxation, and the amount of money spent in other directions. I suggest that individual citizens should be called upon to make contributions according to their ability, and I feel that, initially the government should set an example in this respect.
I would suggest that when we have finally rehabilitated the disabled through this program, then we must have a placement program to provide employment which will suit the requirements of the individual cases. This is a field which will require the co-operation of voluntary organizations as well as individuals who are interested in this program.
In conclusion, it is my opinion that if we accept our full responsibility in this respect, along with the provincial and municipal governments, voluntary organizations and all those of us who profess to be Christian citizens in Canada we will find that the fruits of this legislation will be happiness, through purpose, and independence for those who do not now enjoy them.


John Smith: Mr. Chairman, I do not intend to make a speech at this time but

Vocational Rehabilitation I should like to make some observations which I feel may be helpful to the minister in this regard. First of all I should like to express my complete support of this measure. I feel that this program will do a great deal of good for those individuals who require vocational training. I would suggest that nothing gives a greater lift to young men and women who have come to the point where they do not know what to do than an association with a school or group who are interested in their problems. I feel this program should not stop at that point but that there should be a follow-up in assisting these people to find employment after they have received training.
I want to make some observations with regard to a matter which came to my attention last year and the year previous in connection with individuals who are handicapped. I recall that on the Welland ship canal, which runs through my riding, a great number of disabled veterans were employed as flagmen. This was a type of job that a slightly handicapped individual could handle. I believe there were 50 or 60 individuals employed as flagmen on this canal from Port Weller to Port Colborne. Last year the seaway authority saw fit, and I cannot quarrel with it in the light of automation, to install automatic lights on the bridges. The result was that some of these 60 men were out of work. I think some of them were absorbed in other activities.
The year previous the Ontario hydro-we have probably no control here-carried out a similar pattern in the Niagara peninsula with the result that some 50 or 60 men employed as gatemen were automatically let out when the control lights were installed there.
I feel at this time, with the serious unemployment situation throughout the land, departments concerned should give serious consideration to deferring automation so as to retain this type of employment for those individuals who are handicapped. I am aware of the fact that the postal department at the present time, and for several years, has been experimenting with automatic electronic letter sorting machines. While I fully approve of automation in industry in order that we can keep up with competition from abroad, I think that government departments should give consideration to helping these handicapped individuals for the time being by deferring the installation of this type of automatic equipment in respect of functions that can be carried out by those who are slightly handicapped.
I know there are 100 individuals in my riding who have been laid off as a result of this automation and across the country there probably is a sizeable number of individuals


in a similar position. I have mentioned these things to the minister with the hope that he will give some consideration to them.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Chairman, I should like to say a few words in regard to this matter because I have had some interest in this problem both as a minister of the crown and as a member of the House of Commons over a number of years. However, before doing that, I should like to acknowledge with appreciation the words of the hon. member for Kootenay West and, if I may without appearing to be too late, those of the Prime Minister today, when both the right hon. gentleman and the hon. gentleman kindly welcomed me back to the house after my indisposition.
No one of course, disagrees with the principle of the resolution before the committee. We are all in agreement that it is desirable to encourage vocational rehabilitation and that it is desirable to encourage the fullest possible rehabilitation through medical skills of those individuals in our country who are disabled, either permanently or partially. We are all in agreement that everything possible should be done by those levels of government in the country responsible for the formulation and the administration of programs of social welfare. We are all in agreement that voluntary organizations in this, the middle part of the twentieth century, should be engaged in doing whatever they can to improve the lot of those of our fellow citizens who suffer from one disability or another.
Having said that, I think we really should examine what we are called upon to do in this House of Commons at the present time. If one were to examine the resolution in terms of the words as they present themselves for our scrutiny, one would come to the conclusion that we were now embarking upon a pioneering effort in this parliament and that we were now establishing a new program in the field of social welfare and social action. That is not the case. This particular resolution presents us with nothing new whatsoever. It will not in any way add one iota to the responsibilities of government in Canada as now exercised by authority of parliament. I think that is something we must clearly understand when we come to accede to the proposals made in this resolution by the Minister of Labour.
The resolution first of all asks that we authorize the Minister of Labour to enter into agreements with the provinces to provide for sharing of the costs incurred by the latter in carrying out programs of vocational rehabilitation for disabled persons. It also asks us to authorize the Minister of Labour to undertake the co-ordination of federal activities

in the field of vocational rehabilitation and to undertake research in respect of vocational rehabilitation. Then it goes on to authorize the establishment of a national advisory council on the rehabilitation of disabled persons.
With all of these things I am in full accord, as is every other hon. member in this committee. But, Mr. Chairman, these are now fields of action in which the Minister of Labour is authorized to act. I think it should be clear that we are not today embarking upon a new principle of action nor are we establishing a new initiative on the part of the government of this country. The reason I mention this matter is that it seems to me that much of the legislation that has come before the House of Commons this session is of a pattern that is open to an interpretation not really warranted by that pattern or by the incidence of the legislation that constitutes that pattern.
Unless there is a careful explanation of of what we are now doing, I fear that it will be open to the propagandists of the minister's party-I do not say to the Minister of Labour-to indicate that in this session of parliament something new has taken place, namely that the government brought forward an act to provide for the vocational rehabilitation of disabled persons. That will be in keeping with the fagade which I believe attends some legislation already presented in the house such as that respecting the productivity council, the small business legislation and the vocational training act. Those three measures and this one, put in a pamphlet well adorned, carefully written and properly caricatured, can be very effective ammunition on the part of anyone who is so imaginative. I am not suggesting that the Minister of Labour is not imaginative. However, I know that he uses his great qualities of imagination for more laudable purposes. Unless someone gives the proper perspective to this resolution, I greatly fear that the very kind of thing which I apprehend is going to happen.
As I say, what we are being asked to do in this committee today is to give the Minister of Labour powers that he already is given by parliament by an annual vote that is provided for in the estimates with regard to vocational rehabilitation. We already have a council. There is in existence now and serving with great distinction in the Department of Labour a director of vocational rehabilitation in the person of Mr. Ian Campbell, one of the most accomplished men in this field in the country. But he has been at work now for almost a decade doing this very thing, providing for this very kind of assistance to individuals in the country in co-operation with the provinces.
Vocational Rehabilitation
I think it is clear that we should have a proper appreciation of exactly what we are doing. As I listened to the hon. member for Kootenay West in the very appropriate remarks he made when he expressed his philosophy with regard to these matters, I had the impression that he had been taken in or that he was under the impression that he was now being called upon to support something that was not already part of the authority of government in this country.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I mentioned that matter.


Paul Joseph James Martin: When the hon. member for Peterborough spoke-and there is more excuse for his making this error-one had the impression that he was rising in his place in order to support a new project never before conceived by this House of Commons. However, the Minister of Labour-and I will be fair to him-did not use in the middle of his speech words that would warrant the error which I suspect the hon. member for Peterborough unwittingly fell into. At page 2990 of Hansard the Minister of Labour is reported as having said:
The passing of this legislation will not commit the federal government to any new areas of expenditure.
That is true. As a result of the passing of this resolution and the bill that will be passed later in connection with it, not one additional cent of expenditure will be authorized by parliament, nor is the government asking for any more money.
The Minister of Labour then put the matter in proper prospective when he went on to say:
The placing of the authority for the program in statute form will encourage the provinces to plan ahead in developing more effective vocational rehabilitation services.
That is what really should have been in the explanatory part of the resolution. That is what we are really being asked to do. We are not being asked to provide for a program of vocational rehabilitation; we are being asked to put in statute form something that is now part of the law of this country. That is all we are being asked to do.
We might well ask the minister for his reasons for wanting to put in statute form something that is now available by an annual vote in the estimates, as has been the practice with regard to this and companion measures over a period of at least 10 or 12 years.
I know that hon. gentlemen opposite have always taken the position with regard to these social and health measures that the proper way to provide for authorization is by way of statute and not annual vote. When the national health grants were brought down

Vocational Rehabilitation
from time to time the present Minister of Finance in particular used to argue that these health grants should be presented to parliament in the form of a statute and not in the form of an annual vote, thereby making the particular measure an uncontrollable expenditure within the meaning of that word as it is understood in the Department of Finance.
There is a strong argument for that contention and this may be the right thing to do in this particular case. I am not now arguing that point; I am pointing out what we are really being asked to do. I suggest that the minister ought to explain, when he closes the debate, more succinctly and in greater detail why it has been decided to put this measure in statute form and not leave it in the form of an annual estimate.
I know that some provinces-I know this is the viewpoint of some federal officials not only in the Department of National Health and Welfare but also in the Department of Labour-felt there would be greater opportunity for flexible action, for greater improvement in the amounts involved and in the character of the program itself, if it were not restricted by a statute and were open to annual discussion during the study of the department's estimates by parliament.
In fairness to the minister, he dealt with this problem at page 2989 of Hansard, where he is reported as having said:
By placing authority for this program in statute form, we shall give the provinces the assurance of continued support for their work in this connection. The legislation proposed has been developed with the co-operation of the Department of National Health and Welfare.
So the minister has, at least in principle, answered me by saying that by putting this particular program in the form of a statute we are giving the provinces the assurance of continued support. The minister will undoubtedly add to that statement.
However, I feel that the provinces have the assurance of this support. Surely, no responsible government in any province would for one moment think that parliament would renege upon the implied commitment it made when this program was first enunciated and established in this house. Surely no one in this house would suggest this.
No one has so far expressed any view that would warrant the suggestion that there is any danger that any government in Canada would refuse to continue to co-operate with the provinces in providing for vocational rehabilitation grants and all the incidentals which go with this program. Therefore, I am not convinced that putting this resolution in statute form will have the advantage to which the Minister of Labour has referred, namely

of giving the provinces the assurance of continued support for their work in this connection. Indeed the Minister of National Health and Welfare in this government is my authority for saying that, as a result of his experience, leaving these matters in estimate form is a more effective way of providing for flexibility of program and for the kind of co-ordination that is necessary.
In fairness to the position of the government in this regard I must say, as I mentioned a moment ago, that in connection with the national health grants the present government, when in opposition, took the position that those grants should be put in the form of a statute and not presented to parliament by way of annual estimate.
Therefore when the present government came into office, armed with my knowledge that this was the view of the present administration when in opposition, I asked the Minister of National Health and Welfare whether it was now the intention of the government to put the national health and welfare grants in statute form, or was he going to leave them, as had been the practice since 1949, in the form whereby they would come to parliament as an annual estimate. The minister said that, as a result of the experience he had acquired, he had come to the conclusion that this was the best way to deal with the matter.
The Minister of Labour expresses another view. I am simply now expressing the view that the experience of the Department of National Health and Welfare in this matter is not without some value. I look with interest to the additional reasons the minister will give for the form in which the proposal is to be presented to parliament hereafter, in light of the practice which has been in existence for many years.
My main concern is that in presenting this argument today the government will have this in mind and as a result of my speech will be encouraged to use the form of a statute as a means of enabling some of their protagonists and spokesmen to say, "See what we have done. We have brought forward an act of parliament providing for vocational rehabilitation".
They will also be, not duty bound in law but I think morally bound to say, "Of course, we have not done anything different from what the Liberals did. They really brought this measure in. All we did was to bring it forward in a different form".
I do not like to inject a political note into my first major speech since returning to the house, but I know enough about politics to know that the Prime Minister, who was so gracious to me today, will certainly in the next election hold up a number of acts as a

record of the achievement of this government. One of the things he will hold up will be this vocational rehabilitation act, as though it were a new initiative in the field of social reform, when in fact it has been part of the law of this country for over 12 years.
I would have been interested in hearing what the Minister of National Health and Welfare had to say about this matter, because while much has been done in this field by the Department of Labour, very considerable work is being done by the Department of National Health and Welfare in the rehabilitation of disabled people.
When you combine the work of the Department of National Health and Welfare with that of the Department of Veterans Affairs and the Department of Labour, the program is indeed much more impressive than the criticisms of the hon. member for Peterborough warrant. The hon. member undersold his country today, not intentionally, because we really have done a tremendous amount in the field of rehabilitation. But I can understand why the hon. member for Peterborough did not realize this fact. It was because we were confronted today with all the trappings and all the setting of something that was new which had been originally conceived by the former administration.
It must not be forgotten that the rehabilitation grants provided for by the government of Canada under the national health program are of the greatest significance. When one thinks of the work of Dr. Gingras in the city of Montreal in the field of medical rehabilitation; when one thinks of the work being done by the paraplegics in Toronto, each made possible as a result of moneys voted by this parliament 10 years ago, I cannot help but think that we should put this matter into proper perspective.
As the hon. member for Lincoln says, the work of the compensation board, the work of the provincial governments, the work of the arthritis and rheumatism society, the work of the tuberculosis association, the work of the muscular dystrophy groups, all this voluntary work throughout the country is part of a continuing effort with the government toward a productive and outstanding program of rehabilitation which, I think, warrants our saying that this is a field which has not been neglected in Canada. It is not being approached for the first time by this government which announces, through its propaganda agencies, that it has done more in the field of social welfare than was ever done in the history of Canada.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Hon. members applaud, but the fact is otherwise, and their
Vocational Rehabilitation applause now serves to justify the very warning I am giving to them. This is not an initiative; this is not a new measure. This is merely putting into a new form something we have been doing for a long time, and the kind of applause we have just heard serves to confirm my fears that this measure inter alia will be used for the purpose of conveying the impression that the first effort in the field of vocational rehabilitation was undertaken by the present government. That, of course, is not the case.


Richard Devere Thrasher: Would the hon. member permit me to interrupt him for a moment? He mentioned various organizations and societies which were doing something in this field. In view of the fact that the cancer society is now engaged in a drive for funds perhaps he would mention them.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I am very glad the hon. member has mentioned the cancer society and certainly we cannot do too much to assist that society which, by the way, in 1949 was invited to Ottawa by the then minister of national health and welfare-the hon. member for Greenwood laughs, but I tell him this: as a result of that invitation there came into being the Canadian Cancer Institute which is one of the most impressive contributions ever made to attacking this whole problem in our country. The hon. member for Halton-


An hon. Member:: An excellent autobiog-graphy.


Paul Joseph James Martin: That might be an interpretation, but I think the hon. member should know that I am not ashamed of that autobiography. I was referring to the hon. member for Halton. His father, the distinguished Dr. Best, one of the most outstanding medical research scientists in our country, could confirm practically everything I have said here today because he was one of those along with Penfield at Montreal, along with Collip at Western, along with Brown at McGill, who collaborated with the government. All this really shows that what I have been saying is true, that we are today doing nothing new in this field. Not one additional cent is being expended. If the government had come forward and said: we need more money to do this job better, that would have been an initiative but that is not what we have today.
The Minister of Labour in his opening remarks, after he had cited the resolution, said that it would encourage action which would enable many seriously disabled Canadians to rise above their handicaps. I disagree with that statement. That authority now exists and this parliament will not deny to any Minister

Vocational Rehabilitation of Labour the right to continue to do work of that kind. The minister continued by saying that the humanitarian purpose behind this legislation would appeal to all members of this house because it would bring new hope and encouragement to many of our less fortunate citizens. I think that is an exaggerated statement. This legislation will confirm the hope which already exists among every member of this house in all parties, because the provisions which make such hope possible are now the law of the land. Of course, this resolution deserves support for the reason mentioned by the minister in the middle part of his speech but not for the reasons he gave at the beginning of his speech. Everybody in this house wants to support the disabled.
Incidentally, no reference is made here to disability pensions and none has so far been made during this debate. Disability pensions provide financial assistance for over 60,000 disabled people in this country. That is not covered by this resolution. That will not be covered by the bill. That is already part of the law of the land.
I hope the minister will not think that on my first day after returning from an illness I have been unappreciative of the attitude of my colleagues in this house toward me,

but I hope both he and they will recognize that in the analysis I have sought to make of this problem I have simply reconfirmed our belief in the desirability of doing something to help the disabled people of this country. But I have also done my duty in calling attention to the proper perspective which can provide a background to our discussion of this measure.
Resolution reported and concurred in.
Mr. Starr thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. C-84, respecting the vocational rehabilitation of disabled persons and the co-ordination of rehabilitation services.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

William Hector McMillan: May I ask the leader of the house if there is any change in our business contemplated in the next two days?


Gordon Minto Churchill: No change. We shall carry on with estimates tomorrow and Friday, taking the departments of the post office, northern affairs and justice in that order.


[Stage Direction]
At six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.