1961-07-01

DOMINION DAY

[Stage Direction]
94th anniversary of confederation
Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, on this Dominion day, the 94th anniversary of founding the nation, before we proceed with consideration of today's business may I invite hon. members to pause and pay tribute to the fathers of confederation whose faith and prophetic insight brought this nation into being?
Federation was a prerequisite to the national development of Canada, and the maintenance of national unity remains the key to its destiny. I know there are some who feel a sense of embarrassment in expressing pride in their nation, perhaps because of the fear that they might be considered old fashioned or parochial. I do not belong to that group. I realize that a warped and twisted nationalism is productive of tyranny and war, but that a healthy loyalty and devotion to one's country constitutes a most fruitful inspiration in life.
While our nation had its beginning in two great races today we can take pride in the fact it is now the debtor to many ethnic groups. Six years from today we shall be observing the centennial of confederation. I think it is timely that on today's Votes and Proceedings notice is given of a resolution to precede a bill respecting observance of the centeimial, to authorize the establishment of a national centennial administration in cooperative form, to plan and prepare projects and programs to be undertaken by the government of Canada in order to mark the centennial, and to provide also for the establishment of a national conference on the centennial which will constitute a forum for consideration by both governmental and non-governmental representatives.
Today in celebrating this day by carrying on our duties as public servants we do our part to help achieve the highest ideals of the fathers who made this nation possible. After the Leader of the Opposition and a representative of the third party have spoken their words regarding this day, I suggest that the house then rise and sing O Canada and God Save the Queen.


Hon. L. B. Pearson (Leader of ihe Opposiiion):: I am sure there is no one in this house who has any fear or hesitation in expressing his pride in our country in its growth and development in the last 94 years. I am sure we all feel that a healthy nationalism is the foundation of that growth and development. This is our 94th birthday. It reminds us, as the Prime Minister pointed out, that in six years we shall be celebrating our centennial. Our country is growing older in years and I hope in wisdom and maturity as well. This is the day of the year when we assess the past and, if we are wise, in terms of the present and of the future. We can take pride in that past and from it resolve to play our part so as to make the future worthy of it and of those great men whom we honour today who founded and helped to build our nation.
We must then work together, as indeed we are working here in parliament today, on Dominion day, to do our part to make our country great in strength and unity, a unity which is not uniformity or centralization and a strength which is more than gross national production.


Mr. H. W. Herridge (Kootenay West):: Mr. Speaker, being somewhat of an ancient in years I am inclined to think of the past on these occasions. Looking at the Secretary of State for External Affairs (Mr. Green) I recall very vividly that 47 years ago he and I celebrated July 1 in a little village in my constituency known as Nakusp, on the occasion of the opening of the Nakusp-Kaslo railroad. Forty-four years ago today I was in a hospital after being knocked about a bit, and that was the first occasion that I was particularly conscious of my pride in being a Canadian. I suppose it was principally on account of being away from Canada at that time and its associations.
Today the great majority of Canadians will celebrate Dominion day as our national holiday. We trust they all enjoy themselves. However, on behalf of this group I do want to say we are of the opinion that we are not setting a good example in the recognition of this national holiday by parliament sitting today; not because we would not be willing to sit and undertake the business of the country, but we think in the first instance it is a poor example, and in the second instance it is unfair to the staff of parliament. I trust that in future years this matter will receive

U.K. Action in Kuwait serious consideration, so that all Canadians will have the opportunity to celebrate Dominion day.
Whereupon the members of the house rose and sang O Canada and God Save the Queen.



SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES

[Stage Direction]
A message from His Excellency the Governor General transmitting supplementary estimates for the financial year ending March 31, 1962, was presented by Hon. Donald M. Fleming (Minister of Finance), read by Mr. Speaker to the house, and referred to the committee of supply.

[Stage Direction]
Fifth report of standing committee on public accounts-Mr. Macnaughton.

John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, the house will have heard news reports of the latest developments in Kuwait. This potentially serious situation has arisen as a result of the claim of Iraq that Kuwait forms part of the territory of Iraq. This claim, of course, is contested by the government of Kuwait, which is a sovereign and independent state and which, in order to safeguard its security and independence, has requested assistance from the United Kingdom government under an agreement concluded between the two countries on June 19, the date on which the former treaty of protection ceased to have effect.
Prime Minister Macmillan has been in touch with me and has explained the circumstances in which the United Kingdom government has felt obliged to honour its commitment to the ruler of Kuwait by acceding to his appeal for assistance. He has informed me of the steps which the United Kingdom government is taking, and also that a report on these steps is being made to the United Nations at once. Indeed, the government of the United Kingdom has asked that the security council be convened today. Mr. Macmillan has made it clear that the purpose of the action taken is to discourage any attempt to interfere with the sovereignty and independence of Kuwait.
Early this morning I sent word to the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom that in the difficult circumstances of this situation I believed that he could not have done otherwise than respond to the appeal of the ruler, and welcomed the United Kingdom government's
[Mr. Herridge.l

action in reporting to the United Nations the steps which it is taking. I also assured him that our representatives at the United Nations would do their best to be of assistance in any way open to them in that organization.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister has rightly referred to this situation as a serious one. Indeed, it is a threat to peace. I suggest that the principle upon which action should be based is the principle embodied in the charter of the United Nations. This is more than a principle; it is an obligation on all of us to resist collectively any aggression wherever it may appear. I hope this resistance will not be required because I hope no such aggression will take place.
It is good to hear from the Prime Minister that the matter has been referred to the United Nations, and we on this side certainly support the stand that has been taken by Canada in reply to the message received from the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: The
members of this group are particularly glad and interested to know that the Prime Minister of Canada is being kept informed by the Prime Minister of Great Britain with regard to this serious situation. We appreciate the Prime Minister informing the house of developments at the first opportunity. We are glad to know of Canada's co-operation, concern and interest, and also that the matter has been referred to the United Nations.



CANADA COUNCIL


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I should like to table the annual report of the Canada Council for 1960-61, in English. I am informed by the director of the Canada Council that the French copy is not yet available. He states, among other things, that he had hoped the French version would be available when the tabling of the report took place. He offers no criticism whatever of the translation bureau and merely assumes that the pressure of work there has made it impossible to get the report translated. As soon as the French version is available it will be tabled.



FREIGHT RATES


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I should like to table order in council No. 1961-958, dated yesterday, which continues until December 31 of this year the action of the order in council

Inquiries of the Ministry
passed in March of this year suspending increase on freight rates on grain for export shipped by rail from Georgian bay and related ports to Quebec and maritime ports.
Increases in these "at and east rates", as they are called, were originally filed by the railways to take effect at the beginning of this year. The board of transport commissioners deferred the effective date of the increases by their order No. 103860 of February 23, and reduced the amount of such increases. Appeals against these increases were made both by eastern and western interests affected. The government deferred the coming into effect of the increased rates pending consideration of these appeals, and gave the railways an opportunity to answer the arguments of the appellants.
The government has now decided that a further deferment of the coming into effect of these rates is required in the public interest. In the meantime further study will be given to the rather complicated arguments involved, and account will be taken of other influences now affecting freight rates.



EXCISE TAX ACT

Hon. Donald M. Fleming (Minister of Finance) moved: for leave to introduce Bill No. C-118, to amend the Excise Tax Act.
He said: Pursuant to the resolutions which were reported out of the committee of ways and means yesterday and adopted by the house, I ask leave to introduce a bill to amend the Excise Tax Act.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


Hon. Lionel Chevrier (Laurier):: May I ask
the house leader whether we might have first reading of the Pine Point railway bill so we may be in a position to study it during the week end?


Hon. Gordon Churchill (Minister of Veterans Affairs):: I was not certain that the hon. member for Laurier wanted to proceed so rapidly with the Pine Point railway legislation, but we will take his suggestion into consideration.


Lionel Chevrier: Could we get it so we could spend the rest of the day and Sunday on it?


Gordon Minto Churchill: I am sure the hon. member will spend the rest of the day and Sunday in other ways.


Mr. Pickersgill:: The bill is not drafted yet.


Lionel Chevrier: Where is the bill?

On the orders of the day:


Lionel Chevrier: May I direct a question to the leader of the house, and ask him if the Pine Point railway bill is, in effect, ready?


Gordon Minto Churchill: With regard to all bills the practice is to present them at the time the government decides it is proper to present them. That will be done and it applies with respect to the Pine Point railway bill and any other bill to come before the house.


Lionel Chevrier: Then could I ask the Prime Minister whether the agreement referred to in the resolution which appeared on the order paper yesterday among the Canadian National Railways, the Consolidated Mining and Smelting Company of Canada and the Pine Point Mines Limited has been negotiated and signed by the parties involved in this biU.


Gordon Minto Churchill: This question might have been asked yesterday when the Minister of Transport was here. Perhaps the matter could be raised later when the Minister of Transport is present.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Does the government not know?


Lionel Chevrier: Surely the Prime Minister ought to be in a position to know whether the agreement has been negotiated, because I presume the resolution was based on the agreement.


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member is rising to complain about the sufficiency of the answer, which is not in accordance with the practice.


Lionel Chevrier: Well, Mr. Speaker, I should like to bring to your attention that this is a matter of privilege affecting all hon. members, namely whether or not the resolution which was discussed yesterday was based upon an agreement. I think the house is entitled to know as a matter of privilege whether the resolution was introduced in the house (1) before the bill was ready and (2) before the agreement between the parties was signed.


Mr. Speaker:: I do not think a question of privilege is raised. Undoubtedly the hon. member is correct in saying that the house is entitled to know, in the regular way, but it does not seem to me that a matter of privilege is raised.

Inquiries of the Ministry


Hon. Paul Marlin (Essex East):: Surely an hon. member is entitled to ascertain from the government whether or not its legislation is ready.


Mr. Speaker:: That question has been
answered.


Paul Joseph James Martin: It has been raised but not fully dealt with. My hon. friend is entitled to ask whether the legislation is ready. If the government says the legislation is not ready then, of course, the opposition is entitled to draw its conclusions. We can only conclude that the legislation is not ready, and this is a further indication-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member is entitled to draw whatever conclusions he wishes, but he is not entitled to complain about the sufficiency of the answer, or to debate it.



NATIONAL REVENUE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, yesterday I rose on a question of privilege and suggested that the Acting Minister of National Revenue make a full statement giving the house all the information which the law permitted him to give in connection with the visit of one of his inspectors to the Jean Talon hospital in Montreal relative to the Courtemanche matter. I wonder whether the minister is now in a position to make a statement.


Hon. J. W. Monteith (Acting Minister of National Revenue):: I made a complete statement to the house, Mr. Speaker, yesterday and the day before yesterday.


Lionel Chevrier: In that case I should like to direct a question to the minister and it is this. The minister told us yesterday and prior thereto that one inspector had gone to visit the hospital. However, the evidence is that two inspectors were sent. Is that a fact? If so, why were two inspectors sent?


Jay Waldo Monteith: Mr. Speaker, I said an inspector made a visit to the hospital. As I understand it, there had been an inspector at one stage and a subsequent visit by another. This happens in many businesses. It is just routine procedure.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Lionel Chevrier: Can the minister give the name of the additional inspector or officer of the department who visited the hospital?


Jay Waldo Monteith: I do not know the name of the other inspector at the moment, Mr. Speaker.



POST OFFICE DEPARTMENT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Georges Valade (St. Mary):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to address a question to the Postmaster General. Will the minister inform the house whether there is any truth in a statement that appears in this morning's Montreal Gazette to the effect that the Arthur Meighen commemorative stamp is less popular than are other stamps in that class?


Hon. W. M. Hamilton (Postmaster General):: Mr. Speaker, the purchase of any commemorative stamp is resisted by a percentage of our patrons. In the past I have referred to them as the dry tongue group, because they find the commemorative stamps usually are larger in size and somewhat more difficult to lick, and they prefer to use the normal queen size stamps. We therefore have some patrons who prefer not to purchase any commemorative stamp that is issued.
I inquired this morning after the newspaper story appeared; that was the first indication I had. In this particular case there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that this stamp has been less popular than any other commemorative stamp that we have issued. As a matter of fact, those who are expert in the field of aesthetics have generally felt that this particular issue was the best of all the prime minister commemora-tives we have done in so far as design and execution were concerned.



CUSTOMS TARIFF


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, may I draw one matter to the attention of the house. It has been my practice in connection with budget resolutions and bills to give the house as much notice as possible of any amendments that may be introduced. Hon. members may have observed that in the Votes and Proceedings for June 30, available this morning, I have given notice of a resolution to amend the schedule to Bill No. C-116 to amend the Customs Tariff. May I advise hon. members that this is the matter to which I referred in the budget speech at page 6654, where I stated as follows:
I might add that at the committee stage I hope to be in a position to introduce a supplementary

resolution relating to sodium hypochlorite laundry bleach. This product was reclassified in consequence of a recent supreme court decision. However it would seem appropriate to restore and maintain the former rates of duty pending a report by the tariff board on this and other products included in the chemical reference. Accordingly we have initiated negotiations on the matter under the "special circumstances" clause of the GATT, and I expect that these negotiations will be completed in the very near future.
The bill was reported out of the committee at noon yesterday. I received a telegram yesterday afternoon notifying me of the conclusion of the GATT negotiations. That is the reason I at once gave notice, now produced in Votes and Proceedings, of the amendment which will ensue as a result of the conclusion of these GATT negotiations, and the consequent amendment of Bill No. C-116 which is standing for second reading.



AGRICULTURE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. S. J. Korchinski (Mackenzie):: I have a question for the Minister of Agriculture, Mr. Speaker. In view of the welcome report of rain in the prairie provinces, I wonder if the minister could bring us up to date with regard to any recent developments in that region, particularly as to whether there has been any appreciable change in the crop situation having regard to that report. Could the minister tell us, further, whether he has any plans for meetings with provincial ministers to discuss the fodder situation on the prairies?


Hon. Alvin Hamilton (Minister of Agriculture):: I think everyone in Canada will be pleased to hear that there has been some rain in western Canada in the last 24 hours. These rains were due to a stationary front over most of the northern part of the three prairie provinces. The southern parts of the provinces have not benefited to the same degree. There have been showers, and rainfall between .1 inch and .5 inch have been registered. This will mean that the pastures will be revived to some degree, and brings the hope that the crops can hang on for a few more days during which time further rain may come.
The three agriculture ministers of the prairie provinces and I will be meeting in Winnipeg tomorrow to work out details of a series of programs which we have in mind in case the situation should deteriorate to a disastrous extent.


Stanley James Korchinski: In view of the reply given by the Minister of Agriculture to my earlier
Inquiries of the Ministry question I wonder if I might direct a question to the Prime Minister. In view of the indication that certain areas have not received their share of rain I wonder whether the government has given consideration to making another acreage payment to the prairie farmers.


John George Diefenbaker: Matters of government policy are not announced in anwer to questions on orders of the day, but in due course and at the appropriate time a statement in this connection may be made.



REPORTED FORECAST BY OFFICIALS OF DEPARTMENT

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Paul Joseph James Martin: May I ask
the Minister of Agriculture a question based on a report of Merrill W. Menzies, grain policy adviser to the Minister of Agriculture, and Frank Shefrin of the department's economic division? Has the minister seen the report which these two gentlemen have made to the effect that Canadian agriculture is in for hard times during the next ten years? Further, does this report represent the doom and gloom policy of the Department of Agriculture?


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: I have not seen the report, but I certainly knew of the material which would have gone into it. I think I could point out one very simple difference between this government and the previous government. This government makes up its mind to tell the farmers the truth, and does not continue a policy of deluding them into believing that everything is fine. In pursuance of this policy of telling farmers the truth we have started on a program-


Some hon. Members:: Order.



TRANS-CANADA AIR LINES REQUEST FOR REPORT ON LABOUR DISPUTE

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Frank Howard (Skeena):: I wonder if I could direct a question to the Acting Minister of Labour, or else to the Prime Minister, or to one of the other hon. gentlemen who may have knowledge of the subject. Could any information be given to the house with respect to the announced collapse of negotiations between the air line flight attendants association and Trans-Canada Air Lines yesterday or the day before?


Hon. Ellen L. Fairclough (Acting Minister of Labour):: I shall take the question as notice and secure an answer for the hon. member.

Inquiries of the Ministry PUBLIC SERVICE



REPORTED KICKBACKS TO FEDERAL


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. P. Deschatelets (Maisonneuve-Rose-moni):: I should like to address a question to the Prime Minister. Has the attention of the Prime Minister been drawn to evidence given before the Salvas commission that a federal civil servant was in receipt of kickbacks? If so, does he propose to take any action in this matter?


John George Diefenbaker: That has not been drawn to my attention. However, I point out that wherever there is or has been wrongdoing, it will not be condoned in any way. That I want to make perfectly clear, whatever the identity of the wrongdoer may be.
(Translation):



PAID HOLIDAYS FOR PART TIME EMPLOYEES

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
(Page 7354)
Mr. Azellus Denis (St. Denis):: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Secretary of State? Has he reconsidered the request made by the hon. member for St. Henry (Mr. Lessard) to the effect that leave with pay be granted to part time employees?


Hon. Noel Dorion (Secretary of Slate):: That question is not within the exclusive jurisdiction of the Secretary of State. However, I have taken note of the request made to me by the hon. member for St. Henry, and I also note that of the hon. member for St. Denis; I shall submit the whole matter to the cabinet.


Georges-J. Valade: I wish to ask a supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Could the Secretary of State indicate whether such a request was ever made in the past under the former Liberal administration?


Noël Dorion: I cannot say, Mr. Speaker. (Text):


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I think the hon. member's question has historic interest rather than current urgency.



DEFENCE PRODUCTION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. M. J. A. Lambert (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of National Revenue):: The hon. member for Vancouver South asked a question on June 27 in connection with the

alleged dumping of gravel in British Columbia. I indicated at the time that I would look into the matter. Officials of the appraisers' branch of the department have now been asked to conduct an injury to ensure that importations of aggregate into Canada by Deeks-McBride Limited, Vancouver, B.C. from Friday Harbor and Stillicum in the state of Washington are made at values in accordance with the provisions of the Customs Act.



UNITED NATIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Paul Joseph James Martin: May I ask
the Secretary of State for External Affairs if he can say anything about the conclusion of the bilateral talks regarding disarmament discussion arrangements and, apparently, the decision to move those talks later to Moscow, I think, some time in the middle of July.


Hon. Howard C. Green (Secretary of State for External Affairs):: Mr. Speaker, I do not have a final report as yet, but I think the intention was that talks would be conducted partially in Washington and partially in Moscow, and I would imagine that the next stage will be conducted in Moscow.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Is Canada being kept fully informed as to the nature of those discussions?


Howard Charles Green: Yes, Mr. Speaker.



MANITOBA


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources whether he is able now or will be able before the house adjourns to give us a progress report in respect to the negotiations with the government of Manitoba in relation to the Red river floodway, about which action was promised in the speech from the throne.


Hon. W. G. Dinsdale (Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources):: Mr. Speaker, I can inform the hon. member that discussions concerning the engineering aspects of the project are proceeding quite satisfactorily. There has been some information appearing in the Winnipeg press in this regard, and so far as I am aware everything is proceeding on schedule.



L 1961 SUPPLY

[Stage Direction]
The house in committee of supply, Mr. Chown in the chair.
DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC WORKS Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation-
374. Additional amount for housing research and community planning as contemplated by part V of the National Housing Act, 1954, and to authorize commitments against future years in the amount of $585,900, $1,649,000.
['That completes the estimates of the Department of Forestry.\nResolutions adopted in committee of supply this day reported and concurred in.']
Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Chairman, I rise merely to express our regret that we are taking up this particular vote at this particular time, because the two members of our party who are particularly concerned with public works were assured on the word of the leader of the house that we would not be dealing with estimates today, and are not in their seats for very good reasons. Unfortunately the minister saw fit to change the procedure at the last minute; therefore we are discussing these particular estimates at a time when we should be discussing bills, especially the most important bill before this house. I suggest this would be a good day to discuss it.


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Lester Bowles Pearson: That is why, Mr. Chairman, because of this last minute change in the arrangements made by the leader of the house-


Mr. Graffiey:: You have no members in the committee anyway.


Lester Bowles Pearson: It is because of this last minute alteration in the program as announced on Thursday night that the two members of this party who are particularly interested in public works are not in a position to discuss these estimates this morning.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Why are they not here?


Lester Bowles Pearson: They are not here because they were told these estimates would not be discussed today.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Did the Leader of the Opposition tell them not to come today?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Chairman, in reply to the Minister of Finance I should like to say that those two hon. members to whom I have referred are attending the national celebration of Dominion day in their constituencies because they were informed by the leader of the house that estimates would not be discussed today, and they unfortunately relied upon his word.


An hon. Member:: Oh, yes, but the house is sitting today.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Chairman, I set the record straight last night when this matter
Supply-Public Works
was raised by the opposition, and the statements made by the Leader of the Opposition are not founded on fact at all. If he will read Hansard for yesterday, he will find out what the actual situation is. We attempted to make arrangements to go on with legislative items today and it was on that understanding that I said we would not be considering estimates today. However when that arrangement broke down, because the opposition would not agree, we had to decide to go ahead with estimates.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Chairman, the house leader has said he attempted to make an arrangement to proceed with legislative items today. I suggest there is one piece of legislation before this house which could be very appropriately discussed now, this day being the anniversary of the bill of rights. Why are we proceeding with estimates? If the house leader tried to put legislative items before the house for today why does he not now proceed with that bill? We have asked for a discussion of this bill on the earliest possible date, and the Minister of Finance has said that this is a matter of crisis and that we should deal with it as quickly as possible. However, because of this sudden change we are now dealing with the estimates of the Department of Public Works.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Just a lot of mock heroics from the Leader of the Opposition.


Lionel Chevrier: Bring on your bill.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Why do you not proceed with that item?


The Deputy Chairman:: Order.


An hon. Member:: What happened to the bill of rights?


Gordon Campbell Chown: Order.


Mr. Habel:: Has the bill of rights already disappeared?


An hon. Member:: You are making a farce of the bill of rights.


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Chairman, in respect to this-


Gordon Campbell Chown: Order. I see the hon. member for Kootenay West and think he should have the floor.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. For a good number of years the city of Trail has been interested in an urban renewal scheme. At the time the Secretary of State for External Affairs was minister of public works he made it possible for a survey to be made of the whole situation through an appropriation from this department. Since that time the survey has been completed and

Supply-Public Works
the city of Trail has had a committee working on this question. That committee has negotiated with the Canadian Pacific Railway in respect to the removal of a section of track, and has had lengthy negotiations with provincial authorities. Trail is now prepared to proceed and is very anxious to obtain final endorsation of the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation in respect to this scheme.
To illustrate the concern which exists I should like to quote briefly from the Trail Times of Thursday, May 4, 1961 and specifically from an article appearing therein entitled "Federal Government Studying First Phase of Urban Renewal Scheme". That article reads in part as follows:
First phase of Trail's urban renewal development, that of West Trail, now is in the hands of the federal government, Mayor Leslie Read told the retail section of the Trail chamber of commerce Wednesday night.
"It has been there two weeks," he admitted. "One month is all the time we are going to give them. If there is no word by then we will press the matter."
"To us," said the mayor, "urban renewal means a lot; and $1,100,000 is a lot of money to a city this size."
The article then continues as follows:
In reviewing the history of urban renewal in Trail, Mayor Read told merchants that when he first came into office (1956) track removal problem was one of the major problems confronting the council.
Then the article continues as follows:
Mayor Read said the B.C. government has approved the first phase and agreed to pay 25 per cent of the cost. Trail also pays 25 per cent and the federal government, if it approves the plan, pays 50 per cent.
"We hope the federal government will understand our problem," continued the mayor. "If they reject the plan it means, then, that the onus would be on the provincial government to increase its share of the cost".
I raise this matter at the request of the local people because they are very interested in this problem. I am sure the Secretary of State for External Affairs is also interested, because he was recently appointed the first freeman of Trail, and I congratulate him on that appointment and honour. I am not quite sure of the rights, responsibilities and privileges granted to freemen of a city in British Columbia, but I looked the matter up with respect to Great Britain and found that in Great Britain it is based on the honourary freedom of boroughs act of 1885, under which there are certain privileges. In some instances the freemen do not pay taxes; in others they are allowed to lead their cows in the city without any interference. In other instances they are responsible for the poor of the district. I am not quite sure what responsibilities the minister has assumed, but I congratulate him and I am sure he is

as interested as any member in this house in this renewal problem in the city of which he has been appointed the first freeman.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Since we are considering this particular item, and in view of what the house leader has just said, may I quote from page 7298 of Hansard as follows:


Mr. Benidickson:: Will estimates be taken on Saturday?


Gordon Minto Churchill: No.
Therefore, in order to consider Bill No. C-114 this day, I move that the committee rise and report progress.


Gordon Campbell Chown: Is the committee ready for the question?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Chairman-


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Chairman, this is a nondebatable motion.


Gordon Campbell Chown: Has the Leader of the Opposition the motion in writing?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Yes.


Gordon Campbell Chown: Is the committee ready for the question?
Motion (Mr. Pearson) negatived: Yeas, 16; nays, 73.


Lester Bowles Pearson: I take it vote No. 374 would be concerned with urban renewal projects generally? Does the minister consider that the Red river flood project in Winnipeg, Manitoba, is an urban renewal project?


Mr. Walker:: No, Mr. Chairman.


Frank Howard: When this item was before the committee a couple of days ago I wanted to deal with the question of Indian houses and lending under the National Housing Act to Indian people for construction and reconstruction of houses.
Before I proceed, Mr. Chairman, I wonder whether I might through you express to the minister my heartfelt appreciation and congratulations for having recognized the other day the contribution I make in the house, by his presentation of a statistical analysis of the various items raised. I am sure the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate is equally appreciative of the fact that the minister thinks the hon. member is also an active, efficient and capable representative of his constituency. I am sure my own constituents will be gratified to know that I have been given the signal honour of such recognition by the Minister of Public Works.
Perhaps on balance, Mr. Chairman, one might be permitted to place on the record in a brief way some other statistics along the same line. I undertook to do a somewhat similar amount of work to that done by the Minister of Public Works. I discovered that

of those members who support his particular party, there have been 16 who so far during this session have not uttered one single solitary word on anything except perhaps to make some cat-calls or interjections, which they are quite capable of doing from time to time. Therefore I wonder which is the worst, to be a silent rubber stamp of the government, which is what the minister-


Gordon Minto Churchill: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, the remarks of the hon. member have nothing to do with the item before the committee for consideration.


Frank Howard: I was only following the practice engaged in by the Minister of Veterans Affairs, who has indicated that he does not know what he is talking about. We find that there is no communion between the Prime Minister and the house leader with regard to the business of the house.
The Depuly Chairman: Order. The committee has under consideration item 374, which reads:
Additional amount for housing research and community planning as contemplated by part V of the National Housing Act, 1954, and to authorize commitments against future years in the amount of $585,900.
The hon. gentleman has been dealing with a matter having to do with the conduct of the business of the house which has already been disposed of by vote of the committee. His remarks are in no way related to the item under discussion. I would ask him to come back to the item, and to stay with it during the course of his remarks.


Frank Howard: With deference, Mr. Chairman, I would point out to you that the committee decided nothing except that it would not rise and report progress. That was the motion before the committee. Long before the motion was moved by the Leader of the Opposition, he and other Liberal members, and government members as well, were allowed to engage in a discussion of whether this was the proper item to have before the committee. If, as you suggest, it is not proper for me to talk in this way-and I can appreciate that it is extremely embarrassing to the government to find out that members on this side of the house are placing less and less trust in what the government says about house business-then I will depart from that particular course and deal with what I intended to deal with, namely the question of housing loans for Indian people. I hope my remarks will prod some of the 30-odd silent Tory backbenchers into expressing their points of view about something from time to time.


Mr. Johnson:: If the hon. member would dry up we would make some progress.
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William Heward Grafftey: At least we are in the house.


Frank Howard: There they go again, Mr. Chairman. My hon. friend said if I would dry up we would make some progress. The point is, Mr. Chairman, that these interjections, which as you can appreciate are out of order, are the sole contribution that my hon. friends opposite have to make to debates. All this simply indicates that there are a number of members in the house who are willing to give the government a blank cheque, to let the government do as it pleases, and not concern themselves one bit with the welfare of the people.


An hon. Member:: Nonsense.


Frank Howard: I do not have that much faith in the government, either in this regard or with respect to many other matters.


Mr. Aiken:: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I wonder whether the hon. member would not follow your direction and discuss the item now before us. I should like to say a few things along the same lines as the hon. member's comments but it would not be in order. I would ask him to come back to the public works estimates.


An hon. Member:: He has no brains.


Frank Howard: Who is talking about brains?


Mr. Peters:: He is sitting on his keeping them warm.


Frank Howard: You see what happens, Mr. Chairman. Hon. members opposite say "Stay in order" and then they make these inane and asinine cat-calls and interjections which are completely out of order and made for the sole purpose of delay.


Gordon Harvey Aiken: Mr. Chairman, for the purpose of the record may I say that I made no interjection or cat-call except to ask the hon. member to come to order.


Frank Howard: If the hat fits, pull it right down over your ears if you feel like it. The National Housing Act was amended in 1956 to provide that loans may be made to Indians for the purpose of building homes, and reconstructing and bringing homes up to date on Indian reserves, but so far no such loans have been made and I understand that no Indians have applied for loans. Without being derogatory in any way, I think we all agree that generally speaking the standard of homes on Indian reserves is not as high as in communities outside Indian reserves. I think this arises from a variety of reasons, economic, educational and others.
There is great need for an adequate home building program and adequate credit facilities for the Indian people in order that the homes they have at the moment may be

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brought up to a higher standard. Even though the National Housing Act was amended in 1956 to provide for the making of such loans to Indians, I think the reason no applications for loans have been made is simple. Indian land cannot be mortgaged. It is land held in trust by the crown for the Indian population and it cannot be mortgaged, attached or foreclosed in any way. I think this is the main reason the provision with respect to loans to Indians under the National Housing Act has had no beneficial effects. Their lands cannot be pledged as security, which is the normal basis for the securing of mortgages for the building of homes so far as other people are concerned.
I realize that this is an extremely complex matter and can be easily misunderstood, but I think what must be explored is the possibility of Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation working in conjunction with the Indian affairs branch to develop a system of lending money to band councils on the basis of having the natural resources of the band mortgaged as security for the loans. In this regard I am thinking not of the land itself, which I do not think should be attached in any way, but rather of such things as the timber, oil or minerals on the land. If there was default in repayment these natural resources could be leased, sold or rented, as is now done by Indian bands in many instances, in order to recover the amount of any loan that was in default. In the process of relending the money borrowed under the National Housing Act the band council would be able to take as security from the individual band member that person's per capita share of the band fund and I think also the right to possess the property held by the individual Indian on the reserve in order that the band council might protect the resources of the band.
Unless we can do something of this nature I think the presence in the National Housing Act of a section authorizing loans to Indians will continue in the years to come to be of no use whatsoever, because at the moment there is no way in which Indian lands can be mortgaged. If this field has not already been explored I sincerely hope the minister will explore it fully and completely, to ensure the highest possible standard of homes for Indian people on reserves, and through this means attempt to see that the environmental factors of our Indians with respect to home conditions more closely approximate the environmental factors of those of us who are not Indians.
This would be another way of moving toward equality as between Indians and non-Indians. If investigation and study have already been made with regard to the matter

of loans to Indians, I would appreciate it if the minister would indicate the results of these studies. On the other hand, if nothing definite has been done so far in this regard I am sure it would be a profitable field to explore, and would assist the Indian people immeasurably in increasing their standard of living.


William Arnold Peters: Mr. Chairman, this is a very important field, and I should like to inquire about two or three things. I am particularly interested in the minister's intentions with regard to the secondary mortgage field. The minister made a statement the other day with regard to five lots of mortgages that the government had decided to dispose of, and indicated that mortgages to the value of $2| million carrying an effective rate of interest of 6J per cent had not been sold immediately. The minister may not have intended to do so, but I believe he indicated that these houses were in areas where it was difficult to interest private organizations in the buying of these mortgages. There was an indication at that time that perhaps some of these houses were in western Canada. I would not be particularly surprised to find that one of those lots of housing was in the uranium industry region of northern Ontario.
I believe this highlights one of the problems of Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation in that we have dealt with housing in a rather odd manner. I have always understood that the corporation was given a certain amount of money and that the government as they have done on several occasions, made large additional grants to the corporation with the idea that the money would be placed in a revolving fund for at least the term of the mortgages and that the amount would continue to grow. I was surprised to find that this is not the case.


David James Walker: Mr. Chairman, would my hon. friend be good enough to indicate to me how his question arises under item 374? The last member, who I understand is to engage in an all day filibuster supported by the hon. member who is speaking-I want the committee to make a note of that-did not touch upon the subject matter of item 374. Now the hon. member who has been speaking, and who is in collusion with the hon. member for Skeena to hold up the work of the committee for another day, should inform me what the question is which arises under item 374, and I would be happy to answer it. The reason I did not answer the hon. member for Skeena was that at no time during the half hour he took did he discuss item 374.


Frank Howard: I would point out to the minister that he cannot see the clock. I was not more than five minutes.


David James Walker: I asked a question of the hon. member who is speaking. Are you just going to sit there? It is not within the purview of the hon. member for Skeena to intervene.


Frank Howard: If I might have the floor, Mr. Chairman, I would say that I have noticed in the Minister of Public Works a disposition to be everything-


David James Walker: I asked a question, Mr. Chairman, and I would be very happy to have it answered.


Gordon Campbell Chown: Order. I agree that the minister asked a question of the hon. member for Timiskaming, and when I turned to again recognize that hon. member who had previously had the floor, I did not see him. I saw the hon. member for Skeena, and that was the only person I could see. There was no one else on his feet, so the hon. member for Skeena has the floor.


Frank Howard: I want to point out-


Paul Joseph James Martin: Before the hon. member proceeds, Mr. Chairman, I should like to point out that the Minister of Public Works made a remark about the Chair. He said, "Are you just sitting there"? I have observed the present chairman's conduct of our proceedings and I think it has been admirable from the time he first took the chair. I do not believe the Minister of Public Works was warranted in this slur which he cast.


David James Walker: I, too, am most complimentary of the chairman of this committee. I have nothing but good to say of him. My hon. friend, who is very sensitive to matters which pertain to political capital of any kind, is implying something that was not meant and could not be taken from the context.


Frank Howard: Now that I have the opportunity I only wish to say, Mr. Chairman, that the accusations of the Minister of Public Works about delay and the like are as untrue as anything he has ever said.


William Arnold Peters: The minister has asked us, Mr. Chairman, how we relate this discussion to the item before us. Well, Mr. Chairman, I did not have the opportunity of speaking on this subject previously. If he will recall, the last time the subject was under discussion was June 21. There was a great deal of discussion with regard to Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation on that occasion and the minister engaged in that discussion, particularly the aspect of the matter I am discussing, which is recorded on pages 6851 and
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6852 of Hansard. The hon. member for Bur-naby-Coquitlam raised this question and the minister replied to it. The questions at that time were more specific.
However, Mr. Chairman, I have not asked the minister any questions so far. We may come to that stage. Perhaps the minister would not answer such questions anyway, because what I am trying to discuss is the conduct of the government in relation to Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation. It happens that today is Saturday and, because of that fact, we did not anticipate these estimates would be under discussion at this time. Housing is an important issue to the Canadian people. What the government does with regard to housing in Canada is probably as important as any action the government takes.


David James Walker: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I should like to point out that we had four days to discuss generally the subject of Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation. We are now well past the first item, and we are now on the fifth day of discussion of these estimates. I am simply asking you, Mr. Chairman, to rule that we should discuss item 374. If the hon. member for Timiskaming was not here during the first four days when we were discussing item No. 1, that is something I cannot help.
Let us, Mr. Chairman, confine ourselves to the item which is under discussion. If we could have strict adherence to that rule, Mr. Chairman, as we do when other estimates are under discussion, we would make more progress. My friend says it is important to discuss Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation in general, and I agree, but four days were given in this committee to the discussion of item No. 1.


Gordon Campbell Chown: The minister is quite right in pointing out the need for strict relevancy once we pass item No. 1 of the estimates. The item under consideration deals with housing research and community planning. This is a fairly well defined field which is open to the hon. member for discussion. I would ask him to make his remarks strictly relevant to this item, if he will.


Mr. Mcllrailh:: Perhaps if we had a temporary lull in the private war between the minister and the two hon. members in the committee I could ask him some questions which I think will be strictly relevant, and to which I hope to get answers.


An hon. Member:: For a change.


George James McIlraith: I do not know the point of that interjection. Perhaps I had better leave it on the record unanswered and ignored, as it should be. Item 374 reads:

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Additional amount for housing research and community planning as contemplated by part V of the National Housing Act, 1954, and to authorize commitments against future years in the amount of $585,900.
I wonder if the minister would take a moment, because of the inadequacy of the details which are purported to be given on page 491 but as to which an examination of that page reveals nothing, to tell us exactly how much of this vote is for housing research; what, in a general way, housing research embraces, and so on. I should like to know, too, how much of the item goes into community planning and how community planning is coordinated with the efforts of those having the immediate responsibility, the municipalities and the provinces. If he could do that I think it would serve a useful purpose.
Then I should like him to explain to us the latter part of the item, to authorize commitments against future years in the amount of $585,900. If he would do that I would be grateful to him because I must admit that, for my own part, I find the item confusing, particularly in view of the absence in the details of any explanation of the increase in the item to more than four times the amount required last year.


David James Walker: I want to thank the hon. member for Ottawa West for that question. The expenses under the item for 1961-62 are set out here in particularity, and I will go over them. First, recurring grants amount to a total of $486,900 and include the Canadian housing design council, the community planning association of Canada, university aid program, starts and completions surveys, Canadian housing statistics information, national research council, dominion bureau of statistics rental housing survey and Ontario research foundation. Non-recurring grants, of which community planning research is one, total $728,000, and administrative charges total $435,000 for a total of $1,649,900.
As to the matter to which the hon. member specifically refers, namely community planning research, the budget this year is in the amount of $109,000.


Lester Bowles Pearson: May I ask the minister
whether the research which has been conducted in this important matter gives us any ground for hope that the cost of construction can be reduced?


David James Walker: I wish to thank the Leader of the Opposition for asking that pertinent question and to say that it is a matter that is of great concern to us. We have had a great deal of assistance from private industries which, through research, are trying to reduce building costs. If there is any information

that we are able to make available to them we readily do so, and we encourage them to make inquiries from us.
We have also obtained great assistance from the national research council which in many spheres, in almost anything I ever had anything to do with, has given tremendous service to the public. We are constantly looking for ways and means to reduce costs. Had this not been so I am informed by the head of Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation that costs would be considerably higher than they are at the present time, and for a comparison we check our costs with costs in the United States.


Lester Bowles Pearson: It has been stated-and I am not supporting the validity of the statement, because I am not qualified to do so-that the standards laid down are so strict that they add to the cost of construction, and that perhaps for that reason they may be considered too strict.


Mr. Winch:: I am greatly interested in this phase also, and I hope we can have some comment from the minister on it. As the committee knows, I think I know something, about the construction industry. In the past I have been very happy with the standards that have been established by Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation. However, as I said just a few days ago, I am very much disturbed by some of the changes I hear about, and I am wondering whether they are recommended by the national research board as being permissible, safe and in line with construction staying on a stable basis for many years. From what I have been able to learn of some of the changes, I would most certainly say that from the point of view of good standards in home construction, you are going to have a shack town instead of a decent settlement in the future if some of these rumours are correct. I should certainly like to hear from the minister on the maintenance of proper standards. Perhaps at the same time he could tell us about the issuance of minimum standards in a form that can be readily understood. They certainly cannot be readily understood at the present time.


David James Walker: Mr. Chairman, that shows how we can have divergent points of view. The Leader of the Opposition has heard that the standards were too strict-


George James McIlraith: No, he did not say that.


David James Walker: -and the hon. member for Vancouver East has said that they are not strict enough. All I can say is that we have had these standards created by experts across

the country, together with the national research council which has been formulating the national building code. I would certainly prefer the stricture of the Leader of the Opposition that we are too strict rather than the suggestion that we are not strict enough. The only way we can raise the standards of housing and thus induce further building is by keeping up the standards. By keeping up the standards we feel we are not in any way increasing the intrinsic costs.


Lester Bowles Pearson: I hope I will not be misunderstood, Mr. Chairman. I did not suggest that the standards were too strict. I said it had been alleged-indeed it has been reported to me in the past-that the standards in certain respects were perhaps too strict in relation to the necessity for reducing the cost of construction. I was thinking particularly of the standards in lumber. I am not associating myself with that point of view because I just do not know. I was asking for information.


David James Walker: Thank you.


George James McIlraith: I wanted to pursue a bit further the questions I asked the minister. "Under the research part of the estimate he referred to recurring grants amounting to some $486,000. From the information he gave *about those grants I was not quite clear as to how many of them were directed to Tesearch in the field of building materials and how many to research in the field of housing conditions generally. Is he able in any way to give me an approximate division in that sense between the various grants, as to what amounts would go directly into research concerned with housing materials and how much would go into research on housing conditions or what might more properly be called the social aspect?


David James Walker: Directly for the purpose which my hon. friend has suggested is the grant of the national research council of $122,900. In *connection with the other matters may I say this. As my hon. friend knows, it is research too. The Canadian housing design council gets a grant of $27,000; the community planning association of Canada, $67,000; university aid program, $72,000; starts and completions surveys, $41,000; Canadian housing statistics, $12,000; information, $145,000; national research council, $122,900.


George James McIlraith: From that answer I take it that the one item concerned with the research into building materials would be the national research council item?


David James Walker: Quite so.


George James McIlraith: I take it that the others would be substantially if not wholly directed
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to research into housing conditions and information about housing generally, or research other than that into building materials. I think I am correct in that view?


David James Walker: Yes, that is approximately correct.


George James McIlraith: I was appreciative of the minister's remarks about the work of the national research council in this field of research. I have found that to be my experience over quite a number of years. I certainly wish to express my concurrence in the view put forward as to the quality of the work which the national research council does in this field and in related fields.
I noticed that the minister made no reference to the forest products laboratory. I am not up to date in my information about it and do not know whether they are doing research work on housing materials. If they are not doing it at this time, may I suggest to the minister that he consider the possibility of having the forest products laboratory do work that is directly related to building materials for housing. I think he will find that the record of that laboratory is rather good. Because of its significance not only to the users of the products on which it does research but to the forest industry generally in this country, I think it is a very good organization and that it makes a substantial contribution. I would ask the minister to examine the possibility of co-ordinating the research work provided for by this item more closely with the work of the forest products laboratory, and if they have facilities which might properly be directed to this end, that such direction be given.
Turning to the grant for community planning, may I say that this is a problem on which one could spend a great deal of time. A great deal of public attention is being directed to this subject. It is not my intention at this stage of the estimates to get into a lengthy discussion, but bearing in mind that it is the municipalities and the provinces which have the primary responsibility in this field, can the minister explain the increase this year in terms of the grants which are being made? The grants appear to be sharply increased. I have not the comparative figures for last year, but the whole item in the estimates is multiplied by four compared with what it was last year. Can the minister assure us that these grants are being made in such a way that they will add to the good work which is already being done in many areas by the provinces and municipalities? Can he assure us that the work is being well co-ordinated among the various authorities

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so that this extra sum will add to the total of the work done and not represent duplication in any respect?


David James Walker: In regard to the forest products laboratory, we are already co-ordinated with the laboratory, which happens to be next door to us. They do our tests on plywood and on the other products we consider placing in our specifications, free of charge. We find it very helpful, and it is also helpful for them to get us to accept specifications for Canadian material. All in all, we have a happy relationship.
In reply to the question asked about the budget, the budget last year amounted to $1,158,035 and this year it is $1,649,900.


George James McIlraith: Could the minister answer the latter part of my question about community planning?


David James Walker: Yes, the amount in respect of community planning last year was $75,000 and this year it is $67,000. Last year the actual expenditure amounted to $69,317.


George James McIlraith: As I understood the minister, in answer to the first question I asked today he indicated {hat grants under the community planning part of this vote amounted to $728,000. It is this point I should like to have clarified.


David James Walker: There is a distinction. The recurring grant to the community planning association of Canada this year amounts to $67,000. On the other hand the non-recurring grant, the grant in respect of community planning research, amounts to $109,000.


George James McIlraith: I have one further question. I should like to ask the minister if he would look into the possibility of setting out details of this estimate in a better form next year. I think the form in which the detail is set out under this vote is not as clear as it might be, and that it could be improved.


William Arnold Peters: It would be a point of order to ask the minister just how he is justifying the remarks he has been making either under the particulars or under the item itself. The remarks he has made indicate to me that I was not out of order when making my original remarks, and I think possibly it would be wise to continue on this subject because I think in this particular respect the department has probably not kept up with the thinking or the needs of some of our communities.
One thing which appears to me to be self evident is that the planning which went into the central mortgage and housing development in Elliot Lake was at fault. A terrific expense was imposed on many of the miners in that area in order to do something which

was demanded of them by this act when it was probably not necessary to incur such expense, and not to their advantage to do so. The government knew. The officials of Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation knew. They were more aware than anyone else of the fact that Elliot Lake was a temporary proposition with a very doubtful future. They made this evident in the requirements they imposed in asking the companies to guarantee beyond a very limited period the loans which were made at that time. Even so, even knowing this, standards were set for the building of houses which would probably be advantageous only if more permanent buildings were required. Why should such standards have been set at a time when it appeared1 to the officials of the department that this township was not going to be as permanent as had once been indicated?
Such mistakes are repeated in other areas. We are told that houses are to be built in the city of North Bay in connection with defence requirements. The units to be built by the department are being planned in several locations, and I presume they will be built in accordance with the standards which apply to normal housing. I think it is generally accepted, even by the people who will be living in these houses, that there is not likely to be a 20-year tenancy. The Bomarc missile base in North Bay will not be as permanent as that, in all likelihood. Military minds can probably see what is likely to be the lifetime of that community as it is being planned. I do not believe it is necessary or desirable to have these houses built in accordance with plans which are thought to be desirable when houses are to last for 50 or 60 years. I think much more temporary arrangements could be made, and that these would be satisfactory for the housing of these people.
I should like to know what work the department has done in the matter of planning in so far as the relationship between the cost of acquisition of a site and the cost of the house to be built on it is concerned. It appears to me unreasonable to build a $10,000 or $12,000 house on a piece of land which costs $10,000, for example. The department must have worked out a formula in connection with the relationship between the value of the house and the cost of acquiring the land on which it is built.
Of course this situation is governed to some extent by municipal bylaws. Certain zoning bylaws call for the erection of certain types of house, but the department has no doubt done some work on this question. I am interested to learn what the results have been, and whether there is a formula or relationship between the cost of acquiring the land and the price of building to be built on the land.

In relation to the work which the minister said would be done at North Bay-he referred to projects located in several areas- I understand that the options and planning have already begun in regard to a 200 unit project, and that consideration is being given to the sites required for the remainder of the total of 575 homes. I should like to know what the department's thinking is in regard to fitting this program into the housing program of the municipality, and what advantage or disadvantage there is in keeping the military housing project separate from the municipality. I understand when this course is followed the military project is only connected to the municipality in order to obtain municipal facilities such as sewer and water services. Is there a formula which has been developed in this regard and, if so, what are the advantages?
It seems to me that it would have been advantageous in past years if during the planning of low cost housing projects consideration had been given to including them as part and parcel of the municipality rather than locating them in isolated areas. Such a course, I suggest, would have been advantageous to any urban renewal program carried out at a later date, after the lifetime of those low cost housing units, which was considered at the time they were built to be very limited. Had that course been followed the whole area would have benefited by a total urban renewal program rather than one which concerns only certain streets, areas and zones, and which involves great difficulty because of the fact that the low cost houses have decreased the value of surrounding properties.
I should like to know whether this department has considered this program in those terms, with particular reference to the project at North Bay. I should also like to know why in the planning and development of this and similar projects the same consideration was not given as was given the development of areas such as Elliot Lake and Bancroft, where very high standards were demanded in respect to buildings because the officials of the department were of the opinion that it would be advantageous to do so; and I suggest that is so because of the financing arrangements that were made with the companies involved.


Gordon Campbell Chown: Shall vote 374 carry?


Frank Howard: Mr. Chairman, before this item carries I wonder whether the minister on reflection intends to give this committee information in respect to the subject I raised earlier, concerning loans to Indian people for the new homes and the reconstruction of
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existing homes in reserves; or is the minister still of the opinion that this is not the appropriate item in relation to which that subject should be discussed?


Gordon Campbell Chown: Shall vote 374 carry?


Some hon. Members:: Carried.


Frank Howard: Mr. Chairman, before this item carries I should like to point out that, as recorded at page 6503 of Hansard for June 17, 1961, when we were considering the first item of these estimates, the minister suggested that this subject should be taken up during the committee's consideration of this vote. I should like to read that portion of Hansard to which I refer, which is as follows:


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I have been very quiescent during the initial stages of this discussion. Before this vote carries, is the minister going to reply to a few of the questions that were put, or is he going to reply on the appropriate items?


David James Walker: On appropriate items.
We have now reached the vote in respect of at least one portion of Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation operations and are asking specific questions in regard to matters which the minister said should be discussed at this time, yet he now says that these subjects should have been taken up at the time of our consideration of the first item. This indicates to me that the minister is being furtive and secretive about matters which he does not intend the public should know.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
577. To reimburse Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation for losses sustained by it during the fiscal year 1960-61 as a result of the operation of federal-provincial projects undertaken under section 36 of the National Housing Act, 1954, $253,790.
['On appropriate items.\nWe have now reached the vote in respect of at least one portion of Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation operations and are asking specific questions in regard to matters which the minister said should be discussed at this time, yet he now says that these subjects should have been taken up at the time of our consideration of the first item. This indicates to me that the minister is being furtive and secretive about matters which he does not intend the public should know.']
William Arnold Peters: Is the minister going to comment in respect to this item?


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National capital commission-
375. Operation and maintenance of parks, parkways and grounds adjoining government buildings at Ottawa and Hull, and general administration, $2,311,240.
['Is the minister going to comment in respect to this item?']
George James McIlraith: Mr. Chairman, in respect to vote 375 I should like to ask one or two questions.


Frank Howard: Now he is shaking his hands in glee.


George James McIlraith: That is the minister, not the hon. member for Ottawa West.


Frank Howard: Yes, certainly.


George James McIlraith: This vote dealing with the national capital commission involves a subject which I am sure is of great interest to all

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members of the House of Commons. It is not my purpose now, and members supporting the government will be interested to know this, to take time to make a speech. However, I should like to comment in respect to one or two individual items and, as our consideration continues, to ask certain questions.
At the outset I want to express my regret that the annual report of the national capital commission is not available to hon. members at a time when this item is being discussed by the committee. Over the years the national capital commission report has been prepared in such a way as to give information of great interest to hon. members. In spite of the deficiencies which have resulted from the competition provided by the extensive art work in the publications put out by the Department of Agriculture and the Department of Trade and Commerce, it has contained a good deal of information which members of parliament who provide the funds, are entitled to have.
I know that an uncovered copy of this report was tabled in June. On the last day these estimates were before the committee the minister was kind enough to let me have his copy for a few minutes, during which time I only had the opportunity of making a very superficial examination. I hope the minister will look into this matter to see if the printing of the report can be completed in order that it may be distributed to members. It seems to me that the delay between the tabling of the report and its distribution to hon. members is wholly unreasonable and improper. I wonder whether the minister can give us some explanation as to this delay.


David James Walker: Mr. Chairman, I handed my copy to the hon. member for Ottawa West on the day to which he refers, but at that time, fortunately or unfortunately, the estimates concerning the national capital commission were not being considered. I am not sure whether the hon. member gave that copy back to me.


George James McIlraith: Oh, yes, I returned it to you that same day.


David James Walker: I understand copies have been available for some two weeks. I wonder whether the hon. member asked for a copy. I certainly do not remember him asking me for one.


George James McIlraith: Mr. Chairman, to clarify the situation I should like to state that I have been asking at the distribution office regularly for a copy in the ordinary way, but it has simply not been available to me.
IMr. Mcllraith.]


David James Walker: Copies of the first part of that report have been available for some time. Part 2 of the report is available except for the report of the Auditor General, and we have not been able to complete it for that reason.


George James McIlraith: Do I understand-


David James Walker: You can have my copy.


George James McIlraith: Do I understand the minister correctly when he says copies are available? For some reason that is not apparent they have not been distributed to hon. members. I have been trying to get a copy.


David James Walker: I am just the minister. The hon. member will appreciate this, particularly with respect to the question of distribution. I understand that at least 75 copies were sent to the house some time ago.


George James McIlraith: I will not pursue the matter further. I certainly was not able to get one of the 75 copies. I was trying to get a copy. I look forward to this report, as I have over a number of years. I consider it a report of great interest, if not national, certainly of local interest. I have always looked forward to getting my copy. Apart from seeing the one the minister had, which he was kind enough to let me have for a few minutes when his estimates were last before the house a week or so ago, I have not seen a copy. Perhaps we can leave the matter for the minister to look into further and see whether distribution can be made.


David James Walker: Yes.
(Translation):


Mr. Leduc:: I am sure that the residents of the national capital and all other Canadians who are interested in the national capital development, have noticed with pleasure the progress made up to now in the implementation of the plan.
Since we are at present considering the item relative to the operation and maintenance of parks and parkways, I should like to take this opportunity to congratulate the staff and all the members of the commission for the excellent work they are doing in this city. We are very proud of our parks and parkways; tourists who visit the national capital never have anything but words of praise for the way the flowers and shrubbery are kept and for the fine condition of the grounds around government buildings.
I therefore commend all members of the commission and all those responsible for the maintenance and lay-out of those parks.

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The national capital program provides tor projects to be carried out in the immediate future, and others are long term projects.
I want, at this time, to congratulate the commission for having undertaken the important project of relocating the railway tracks and Union station. That, to my mind, is the key to the master capital plan. It was announced earlier in the press that within four years, Union station would be located about two miles from the parliament buildings. All the railroad tracks across the city will disappear; the level crossings will be eliminated, and new throughways and boulevards will be laid out where those tracks are now.
I read with great pleasure in the papers, about ten days ago, that the commission had decided to run the railways underground in the city. From the Ottawa river the route would go under the Rideau canal to the south of the city via the Carleton university campus. I think that is a sound decision, though it may cost rather more to have those tracks running through a tunnel. From an aesthetic point of view, it will mean a great deal to the capital.
As far as railroad relocation is concerned, I hope that the commission is now considering a similar plan for the city of Hull. We know that in four years from now, when Union station has been moved a few miles away from its present location, the railway on the Quebec side will also have to change its route, because trains will no longer be using the interprovincial bridge. Railway traffic will be concentrated on a single branch line. I hope the commission will proceed in the same way on the Quebec side as on the Ottawa side. I hope consideration will be given to building a tunnel for the railroad tracks west of Montcalm street and beyond Alexandre Tache boulevard. The same might be done on the north side of the city of Hull, towards which much of the traffic will have to be routed when the new bridge is built. At that time, I think it would be very wise to build a tunnel for the railroad tracks across Hull.
May I also say to the house that I am most satisfied with the attitude adopted by the commission in purchasing all the land on the Ottawa side in the green belt surrounding the national capital. Such a step was essential both for sound administration and as a means of rushing in a scientific way the boundaries of the capital area.
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I hope the commission will adopt the same policy on the Quebec side and will take immediate steps for the creation of a green belt in that area.
(Text):
At one o'clock the committee took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The committee resumed at 2.30 p.m. (Translation):
["I am sure that the residents of the national capital and all other Canadians who are interested in the national capital development, have noticed with pleasure the progress made up to now in the implementation of the plan.\nSince we are at present considering the item relative to the operation and maintenance of parks and parkways, I should like to take this opportunity to congratulate the staff and all the members of the commission for the excellent work they are doing in this city. We are very proud of our parks and parkways; tourists who visit the national capital never have anything but words of praise for the way the flowers and shrubbery are kept and for the fine condition of the grounds around government buildings.\nI therefore commend all members of the commission and all those responsible for the maintenance and lay-out of those parks.\n\nSupply-Public Works\nThe national capital program provides tor projects to be carried out in the immediate future, and others are long term projects.\nI want, at this time, to congratulate the commission for having undertaken the important project of relocating the railway tracks and Union station. That, to my mind, is the key to the master capital plan. It was announced earlier in the press that within four years, Union station would be located about two miles from the parliament buildings. All the railroad tracks across the city will disappear; the level crossings will be eliminated, and new throughways and boulevards will be laid out where those tracks are now.\nI read with great pleasure in the papers, about ten days ago, that the commission had decided to run the railways underground in the city. From the Ottawa river the route would go under the Rideau canal to the south of the city via the Carleton university campus. I think that is a sound decision, though it may cost rather more to have those tracks running through a tunnel. From an aesthetic point of view, it will mean a great deal to the capital.\nAs far as railroad relocation is concerned, I hope that the commission is now considering a similar plan for the city of Hull. We know that in four years from now, when Union station has been moved a few miles away from its present location, the railway on the Quebec side will also have to change its route, because trains will no longer be using the interprovincial bridge. Railway traffic will be concentrated on a single branch line. I hope the commission will proceed in the same way on the Quebec side as on the Ottawa side. I hope consideration will be given to building a tunnel for the railroad tracks west of Montcalm street and beyond Alexandre Tache boulevard. The same might be done on the north side of the city of Hull, towards which much of the traffic will have to be routed when the new bridge is built. At that time, I think it would be very wise to build a tunnel for the railroad tracks across Hull.\nMay I also say to the house that I am most satisfied with the attitude adopted by the commission in purchasing all the land on the Ottawa side in the green belt surrounding the national capital. Such a step was essential both for sound administration and as a means of rushing in a scientific way the boundaries of the capital area.\n90205-6-465\nI hope the commission will adopt the same policy on the Quebec side and will take immediate steps for the creation of a green belt in that area.\n(Text):\nAt one o'clock the committee took recess."]
Rodolphe Leduc: Mr. Chairman, before the one o'clock recess, I made a few brief remarks on the administration of the national capital.
I should now like to discuss a subject of great concern to my constituents and to myself, namely the development of the Gatineau park.
I am sure the majority of hon. members who have visited the park will agree with me that we would feel more comfortable this afternoon in Gatineau park than in this house.
A great many Canadians are on holidays at this time, enjoying the charms and facilities available to them as a result of the development of Gatineau park.
Gatineau park is only partly developed.
The scheme for the development of this park was outlined in 1937. First there was the planning stage, then land was purchased, and today, part of the park has been completed.
On this day of July 1, the 94th anniversary of confederation, I think it is appropriate to express the hope, that in 1967, six years hence, or 30 years after development of this park was initiated, the 1937 dream will come true and Gatineau park will be completed.
Let us not forget that this is the only national park in the province of Quebec.
At this point, I should like to suggest to the minister and to the members of the national capital commission that they urge the federal government to approach the government of the province of Quebec and ask that the land now owned by the province be set aside for the Gatineau park.
This is certainly the best time to come to an agreement -with Quebec in that connection, for, today, Quebec is really part of the confederation.
Ten or 15 years ago, various members of the commission tried to reach an agreement with the province of Quebec with regard to provincially-owned land which could be used to complete the park development. But no agreement could be reached.

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I believe the commission should take further steps to settle this important question.
The agreement could be on two points. First of all, we should obtain for the park all the lands belonging to the lands and forest department of the province of Quebec; and secondly, the N.C.C. should let the province have the right of way which it holds on a property formerly owned by the Hull electric company, where the latter ran its street cars between Hull and Aylmer. Furthermore the town of Aylmer and all the area between Hull and Aylmer need a second highway.
I think the commission should take steps to make such an exchange with Quebec, thereby simultaneously solving two problems: that of the Gatineau park, and1 the traffic problem between Hull and Aylmer.
Mr. Chairman, in the last few years, the funds appropriated for the development of the Gatineau park have been reduced. I realize that some of the projects involved in the national capital development program are more urgent than others. However, in view of the present unemployment in the Hull district, the riding of Gatineau and the neighbouring area, it seems to me that the government should increase its expenses instead of reducing them. Such a development could provide a great deal of work for labourers. I feel that the commission authorities would be wise to undertake the continuation of the parkway that goes from Hull to the Champlain look-out because, after all, that is the first stretch of the Gatineau parkway. The commission should extend it not only to lake Philippe but to the north limit of the park in the riding of Pontiac.
However, I should like to express my appreciation to the national capital commission for having granted recently a contract for the paving of the road between Wakefield and Masham to lake Philippe. The house is no doubt aware of the fact that all necessary facilities are to be found at lake Philippe and that thousands of tourists spend their days and week ends at that lake. The paving of those three miles of road is truly beneficial to the people who go to that fine lake.
I would have a few suggestions to make to the commission concerning the development of that park. There are some 30 lakes within the park. Some of them are quite large and offer good fishing since tourists find there the species of fish they are looking for. We have in that park, only a few miles from the capital, salmon trout, bass, pike and pickerel.

In my opinion, the commission should have a biological survey carried out immediately in those lakes and have all non-sport fish destroyed. It should also see to the construction of a fish-breeding establishment in order to stock those lakes with appropriate fish. Thus we would have lakes well provided with fish for the tourists, when the construction of parkways and roads will have opened the area to the public.
I should like also to say a few words about the prison camp to be opened in a few days, if it is not already opened. It is located in the riding of Gatineau, or rather in the riding of Pontiac, but in the Gatineau park.
Mr. Chairman, I have a few remarks to make on this subject. I am aware that the national capital commission is not responsible for this project for it comes under the Department of Justice. However, since it is essential that good relations exist between the national capital commission and those who reside near the park, I suggest the commission should not be responsible for this prisoners' camp.
People throughout the area are against the prison camp. The Gatineau county council, the chambers of commerce, schoolboards and town councils have passed resolutions which were sent to the Minister of Justice (Mr. Fulton) to protest the establishment of such a camp in the area.
Can you imagine, Mr. Chairman, what it means to have from 80 to 100 prisoners in such a camp? It means that work which should normally be done by local people, who have a right to work and a good many of whom are unemployed because they have agreed to work for the national capital commission for the building of this camp. Well, that work will not be carried out by them any more. In my region, we have unemployed heads of families to whom it is very difficult to explain that the government prefers to have the work done by prisoners, by former criminals rather than by our honest people. That is why I should not want the commission to bear the responsibility for that camp in Gatineau park. Fortunately, the camp will not be set up in the constituency of Gatineau, but rather in the Gatineau park, that is to say, in the constituency of Pontiac-Temisca-mingue. It is not for me to express here the views of the hon. member for Pontiac-Temis-camingue (Mr. Martineau), but I do know-


Mr. Mariineau:: He can express his own views.


Rodolphe Leduc: -that some of the voters in the constituency of Pontiac-Temiscamingue, which is close to mine, came to see me to say they were not satisfied either. I should like the public to know that the commission is not responsible for the setting up of that camp.
Now, I would like to make a few more brief remarks in connection with zoning and building regulations in municipalities located within the national capital area. The N.C.C. makes available to municipalities the services of expert town planners for the preparation of zoning plans and proposals for building regulations.
It is deplorable that some municipalities within the limits of the national capital have no zoning nor building regulations. I understand that in the provinces of Quebec and Ontario some municipalities cannot afford the services of expert town-planners for that kind of work. But fortunately, within the limits of the national capital, services of such experts are offered free of charge to all municipal councils. I would ask the commission to exert pressure, or at least to do what can be done to inform the people in those various municipalities so that they will ask the commission for the services of the town planners to prepare adequate plans.
There are unfortunately, quite close to Hull city limits, villages which are developing into real slum villages. Why? Because those municipalities have no zoning or building regulations to control building in the limits of their own territory. I
I know that at this time there is serious work being done in Quebec to help and advise municipalities in taking zoning and urban development measures. I hope the commission will do its best to see that all the municipalities in the national capital area have their own zoning and construction programs as soon as possible and that the bylaws they adopt are strictly enforced.


Azellus Denis: No match-box post offices.


Rodolphe Leduc: Mr. Chairman, it would also be advisable, I think, to construct a building for the Gatineau park management staff.
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I know that the department has provided temporary buildings, but with the expansion that is now evident, the national capital commission should give immediate consideration to properly housing the employees of the Gatineau park administration in buildings fit for such a park.


Paul Raymond Martineau: Mr. Chairman, I had no intention of speaking on this item, but in view of the remarks just made by my hon. colleague from Gatineau (Mr. Leduc), I feel I should give the house my views on this matter.
It goes without saying that I fully agree with some of the remarks made by the hon. member for Gatineau, and especially with those pertaining to the beauties of the Gatineau park and of the Pontiac-Temiscamingue and Gatineau ridings. As a matter of fact, I am the first to support his views. I fully support some of his suggestions concerning the development of the park and the building of roads through it, so that the greatest possible number of citizens may enjoy the natural beauties that are to be found there. I am happy to say to the hon. gentleman that his comments on this matter are greatly appreciated.
However, Mr. Chairman, the hon. member raised a question about which I feel, he did not do justice in his speech. I refer to the use of prisoners to carry out work within the Gatineau park.
I should ask the hon. member for Gatineau to refer particularly to the statements made by the Minister of Justice (Mr. Fulton) about this matter. In reply to a question about the consequences of setting up correctional working camps, and more particularly about the work to be carried out in the Gatineau park, in co-operation with the national capital commission, the Minister of Justice stated as follows, as recorded on page 1 of the English Hansard for December 21, 1960:
The government believes in the principles underlying such rehabilitation projects and their use for resources conservation purposes. However, in the study of each particular project, we require that the following test be applied: Is it expected that the project, within about ten years, would be carried out by regular workers and paid for out of public funds? If so, it is not undertaken by prisoners.
When discussing the estimates of the justice department the same question was dealt with and the Minister of Justice stated on June 9, 1961, as will be found in Hansard:
During the coming months it is intended to place the emphasis upon the development of minimum security institutions. The committee will have

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gathered from my previous remarks that the pressure for medium security institutions has in some measure been relieved, and our greatest need is for institutions in which the benefits of minimum security conditions can be brought to bear upon those inmates who have responded to our new rehabilitation methods. The necessary provision has now been made so that, across the country, we shall be opening five correctional work camps, each designed to provide accommodation and training for 80 inmates. These camps-
The minister there listed the various locations where those camps would be set up and mentioned the Gatineau park, in Quebec.
And the minister went on:
I would like to assure the house that none of the men held in these institutions will he engaged upon work which would deprive other Canadians of employment. None of the projects which they undertake would be commenced within ten years if they had to be paid for out of tax moneys at the current rates of civilian pay.
In other words, Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Justice indicated on two different occasions that the work carried out under that program would be of a kind which, anyway, is not planned for the next ten years and far from delaying the development of the Gatineau park, will rather accelerate this project.
Mr. Chairman, I understand that no unemployed worker in the area will be deprived of a job, because of those works the purpose of which is to establish those very facilities the hon. member for Gatineau himself has been asking for.
In addition, there is no doubt that the establishment of a prison camp will create jobs for a number of guards and caterers, the latter having to supply the inmates of the institution with the required services and commodities. I therefore feel that if we adopt that position, far from depriving the local people of jobs, we will on the contrary create additional jobs.
Mr. Chairman, I am glad to see that recently some officers of the Department of Justice went to my hon. friend's riding to explain the objectives of that department when they establish such correctional work camps.
The hon. member for Gatineau has referred to complaints he has apparently received from his constituents. Personally, I can say here that I have never received any complaint from anyone in my constituency. Quite to the contrary, municipal authorities wrote to congratulate this government for undertaking work that will considerably help the develop-

ment of an area which, in the opinion of all, including the hon. member for Gatineau, is quite promising from the viewpoint of tourist attractions of all kinds.
I also take this opportunity to ask the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Walker) to see that the national capital commission carries on with this worth-while project of the Gatineau park development, so that not only the citizens of our district, but all the citizens of this country may fully benefit from the natural attractions of the Gatineau park, which all of us praise.
(Text):


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I rise just to ask a question or two of the minister. However, before doing so I must express my full appreciation of the work that has been undertaken throughout the years by the capital commission for the planned beautification of Ottawa and its environs. As a matter of fact I have no hesitation in saying that practically everything Ottawa has with respect to beautiful gardens, drives, lawns and parks is the result of the activity of the capital commission. I think much credit should be given to that robust, energetic and very capable person General Kennedy and his colleagues.
By the way, Mr. Chairman, I must be getting on in years because 44 years ago I never thought I would speak a good word for a general again after being carted about 100 miles across France in a G.S. wagon in order to be court-martialled for supposedly giving a platoon a wrong order in action. As soon as the court saw me, of course, they knew I was innocent and the charge was dismissed.
However, I must say also that I wish to compliment the person, whoever it is, who is responsible for the decoration around the grounds of parliament for this holiday season. I hear some comment and I can well understand it; but honestly I am giving my opinion. I think we have more colour, greater effect, and more holiday and festive atmosphere for the least expense than we have had for a good many years. I have had a look at these decorations. 1 find that, best of all, the flags, the poles and the portable cement blocks will serve for many future national holidays, festive occasions, welcomes to visitors from overseas and so on. I like the idea of being able to use these materials over and over

again. As I say, I have seen some heavy expenditures, on occasions, on things which could not be used again.
Now I come to my question. I have had a number of visits from residents in the Sussex street district, in addition to considerable correspondence from them. I have heard from the owners of property and private homes on Sussex Street who are concerned about the possibility of the expropriation of that property by the national capital commission. This is a natural concern. I understand these people are reconciled to their property being expropriated if they can be convinced that it is necessary for the beautification of Ottawa as part of the national capital commission plan, but they have heard reports from reliable sources that over the years representatives of the French government have been approaching the appropriate persons in the federal government with a view to having a site expropriated opposite the present French embassy for the building of a chancellery. These people are concerned if property is to be expropriated for that purpose. I understand and there are a number of civil servants who have reason to believe that representations have been made at a high level for the expropriation of property for that purpose.
These people claim there is ample room in the grounds of the French embassy for extra buildings to serve the great and friendly nation of France. I can hardly credit why people should come to me on occasions in respect to such matters as this, but, as I say, I have had correspondence dealing with this question, in addition to a number of visits, and I undertook to raise the matter in the house and ask the minister whether it is correct to say that representations have been made on behalf of the French government in this connection to any department of the government of Canada for the expropriation of certain land for the construction of a chancellery or other building for the French government.


David James Walker: I thank the hon. member for Kootenay West for his remarks. The national capital commission over-all plan has for many years envisaged making Sussex drive from the parliament buildings to government house a processional drive or, as I stated at one time, we should like to preserve the good that was there and improve what is not good. This is a plan which has long been outstanding. I can tell the hon. member that as far as any government outside Canada is concerned representations such as he has described
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have played no part in any such plan. No representations were made by the commission at the time this plan was envisaged. If any formal representations have been made on behalf of any foreign government they have not been made to the national capital commission.
Perhaps I might say one further thing. I am not, in all humility, as the minister responsible for the national capital commission, able to accept credit for the wonderful decorations outside the parliament buildings to help us celebrate Dominion day. However, in all modesty, I can accept congratulations as the Minister of Public Works.


George James McIlraith: I have no desire to debate matters having to do with the Department of Public Works, but I cannot help observing that there have been small criticisms of certain actions such as the tearing up of the lovely lawns cared for by the national capital commission. The Department of Public Works has come along to dig ditches, excavate and put in temporary wires. There are all kinds of side issues and altogether the situation is not as happy as the minister would have us think. Perhaps if I press the subject further, Mr. Chairman, you would call me out of order, and I am sure that in the spirit of the holiday no one would like that to happen.
I should like to ask the minister a few questions with regard to the position of chairman of the commission. It is very important, I think the committee would agree, that the chairman of the board should be endowed with a blend of natural qualities. He should be sufficiently artistic to visualize development of an area and at the same time he must be practical enough to be able to carry out the practical work required to be done. Then, above all other capacities, he must be able to co-ordinate his activities with those of the other authorities, provincial and municipal, engaged in his field in such a way as to obtain the greatest effect from the total resources available. It seems to me that all this requires great qualities of mind and character including patience and, indeed, wisdom beyond that given to most of us.
We have had a succession of very fine chairmen of this commission and I hope the one to be appointed in the future will be of the same high calibre. The present chairman has been the general manager of the commission for many years and I think we would all wish to publicly acknowledge the good work he has done over the whole of this period. My understanding is that his present position as chairman is of a temporary nature and that his tenure expires some time this autumn. I assume the minister is not able to tell us at this stage the name of whoever is destined to be his

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successor, but ii the hon. gentleman has any information on this subject which he feels he can properly release at this time I should be glad to have it.
While I am making reference to the present chairman of the commission in his former capacity as general manager, I might also refer to the fact that we have with us today on the floor of the chamber, I believe, for the first time, the new general manager. I can only say that I wish him well in the years ahead. I wish him all those qualities which are required to carry on this work, not the least of which may be patience.
I do not know whether the minister wishes to answer my questions as they arise. I have one or two more to ask.


David James Walker: I shall answer them all at the
same time.


George James McIlraith: I should appreciate it if the minister could throw some light on this question of the chairmanship of the commission, because I can tell the hon. gentleman that if the appointment is not made before the election there will be appointed a man of the very finest calibre; and I hope that even if the appointment is made before the election the position will be filled by a man of the same qualities.


Mr. Bell (Carleton):: May I ask the hon. gentleman this question. If, after the election, he were to find himself unemployed would he be a candidate for the position?


George James McIlraith: No. But after the election, my leader authorizes me to say, I shall have the fullest possible say about the appointment of the chairman and he will be of the highest calibre.
I wish to raise another matter having to do with the composition of the board. The composition of the board has been changed from time to time but the latest change made involved the dropping of the representatives of the cities of Ottawa and Hull. While these are only two of many municipalities involved they are the two largest. I like to stress every time I speak on this subject the necessity for good co-ordination and good relationships among the municipal bodies concerned and this commission. I would hope that the minister would consider this point and, overlooking whatever the vicissitudes may be at any given moment in dealing with this subject, would consider submitting to the house an amendment to the act providing that the officers holding the positions of mayor of Hull and mayor of Ottawa be on the commission. That is something of which we should not lose sight and I hope the minister will give it consideration.

There is one other question which I should like to raise. The whole question of expropriation has become increasingly important these last few years as the use of expropriation has increased sharply for national capital commission purposes, for federal public works' purposes, and indeed in the provincial government legislative field, as well as for municipal purposes. This is a difficult subject and there is no doubt at all that experience has revealed many weaknesses in the existing procedure. I had understood that new legislation on this subject was being brought forward at this session. While it has not been brought forward I wonder whether the minister would state exactly what the position of the government is with respect to it. It seems to me that this legislation is overdue and that a statement by the minister should be made at this session. These days when we hear so much about the bill of rights, I sometimes think, in keeping with the spirit of the bill of rights, we might modernize this legislation a bit to bring it more up to date.
Would the minister advise the house what acreage in the green belt development has been acquired and what acreage is yet to be acquired, and, of the acreage yet to be acquired, what portion of it is now under expropriation proceedings, in what area and to what extent is it intended to continue to attempt to negotiate without expropriation? I would ask him to give us the amount paid to date for property acquired for the green belt as well as his estimate of the amount required to complete the acquisition of the balance of the property.
Then, as to Sussex street, I have some specific questions I should like to ask. What is the estimated cost of expropriation of land by the national capital commission between Sussex drive and Thomas street? Is the minister in a position to develop further at this stage the plans for the use of the lands to be expropriated?
Will any of the buildings on the lands to be expropriated be preserved, or is it intended to replace them all? Will the minister clarify the position of the government concerning the future use of this land for embassy sites? There has been talk from time to time, one way and another, on this point and the situation is quite obscure. Perhaps he could clarify it.
Then there is the question that arises as to whether or not any of this area is to be used as a park site. If that is so, would the minister elaborate a bit on the nature of the park development to take place there, and tell us what expected use will be made of that park, bearing in mind its proximity to other park areas, namely, Rockcliffe park.

Has the minister considered the possibility under our housing legislation of proceeding to develop part of the area outside the area being taken by the national capital commission so that the housing standards in that part of the area could be raised? The standards in part of the area now are very good but there are some other areas in close proximity where the standards are not as good as they might be. It seems to me the housing legislation we have would permit of an advantageous use of funds voted under Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation in conjunction with the provinces and municipalities to undertake certain works to bring that adjacent area into better relationship to the proposed new development for Sussex street.
Perhaps at this stage I should give the minister an opportunity to reply to my questions. I have attempted to state them concisely and specifically but I realize they have covered a somewhat wide range.
(Translation):


Azellus Denis: Mr. Chairman, I should like to make one remark to the minister. In my opinion, it is high time that the government put an end to the construction of post offices which look like soap boxes.
I understand that recently the minister called himself the "government's plumber."
I would suggest that he stick to plumbing in the construction of post offices and I would advise him not to seek the advice of the Postmaster General (Mr. Hamilton) on questions of design because, when he did, the results were rather poor.
In addition, I rise on a question of privilege on behalf of plumbers. The minister should not pretend that he is a plumber because those tradesmen are industrious, they have good taste and they are neither arrogant nor proud.
Before calling himself a plumber, I think the minister should ask the plumber's union so that the latter may decide whether he deserves to become one of their numbers.
In conclusion, I would ask the minister not to associate himself with any trade because all those people have marked qualities we admire.
(Text):


David James Walker: I want to thank the hon. member for St. Denis for his usual courteous and helpful suggestions. I know my hon. friend is a champion bowler, there is no question about that title. I guess I cannot compete in the same realm, and I admit that.
In reply to my friend the hon. member for Essex West, may I say this-


An hon. Member:: You mean Ottawa West.
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David James Walker: Yes, Ottawa West. Excuse me, but I can never quite get away from the benign influence of the hon. member for Essex East who sits close to the hon. member for Ottawa West.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I am being very quiet now.


David James Walker: In respect to the Expropriation Act I will have to leave it to the Minister of Justice. I have not followed sufficiently close to know whether this legislation is to be brought down this session. I have not seen it on the order paper as yet.


An hon. Member:: It is there.


David James Walker: I have not noticed it.


Paul Joseph James Martin: It is a bill introduced by the member for Essex East.


David James Walker: That is something new. The acreage to be acquired is 673 parcels of 6,818 acres. We have under option at the present time 72 parcels of 2,860 acres. The amount already purchased involves 598 parcels of 24,722 acres.
The Sussex drive development program, as the hon. member for Ottawa West knows, is still under consideration. When the original Greber plan of the national capital commission, or the federal district commission as it was then called, was brought in some years ago it contemplated embassy sites somewhere along Sussex street. But I can assure the hon. member that during my tenure of office in any event, the national capital commission has made no such plans nor has it come forward with any such plans.
I agree with the hon. member for Ottawa West that we should have a very distinguished man to succeed General Howard Kennedy, of whom I think very highly, and also Mr. A. K. Hay, who has given a lifetime of distinguished service to the national capital commission. Mr. Alan Hay is a wonderful type of man. It is a great credit to any country to have such a public servant. It is through his own insistent request that we shall be forced to allow him to terminate his services as chairman of this commission on September 30 of this year. It was only at our urgent request that he has stayed on as long as he has. I hope by that time to be able to announce to parliament and to the people of Canada the appointment of a distinguished successor who will maintain the excellent tradition established by the former chairmen of this commission.
I was surprised to hear the hon. member for Ottawa West advocating-I take it he was advocating it-the appointment of my distinguished friend and his political enemy, the mayor of Ottawa, to the national capital

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commission. If that was what he was doing today it is unique. It shows how broadminded he really is. I can say though that it was our predecessors in office, the St. Laurent government and Mr. St. Laurent himself who insisted that the National Capital Act should be amended so that neither the mayor of Ottawa nor the mayor of Hull would of necessity or as a matter of right be members of this commission. The former prime minister, Mr. St. Laurent, felt that there would be a distinct conflict of interest between the duties of the mayor of Ottawa as such, or the mayor of Hull as such, and the interests of the national capital commission as such. Therefore, section 3 of the act states that as a statutory right Ottawa should have at least two representatives on the commission and Hull one. I think this answers the questions the hon. member asked.


George James McIlraith: There is one point I think I should clarify. I refer to the minister's reference to the former prime minister. I think his comment went farther than the facts warrant. I am aware that the draft bill prepared by the previous government did not make provision for the appointment of the mayor of Ottawa and the mayor of Hull as members of the commission. I am aware of that fact but I believe that a more careful examination will indicate to the minister that his other remarks when he was purporting to speak for the former prime minister were not in accordance with the facts. I think he would not wish to leave them just the way they were expressed. I think on examination he will find the facts are more closely as 1 state them on that point. I am aware that the bill submitted, but not dealt with by the former government, did omit the provision for the appointment for the mayor of Ottawa and the mayor of Hull to the commission, but I am not by any means satisfied that the bill would not have been changed, or that the provision would not have been changed, before or during its submission to the House of Commons. I think the minister will agree with me that it is fair to leave the matter that way.


David James Walker: May I say one word there. I think I know whereof I speak. We inherited the draft from the St. Laurent government and all we did was to put it through. This was the suggestion of the former prime minister himself. It was his suggestion that the change I have outlined should take place.


George James McIlraith: I thought I made it clear that this clause was in the draft bill prepared by the former government, but to go beyond that and say what the minister has said were the views of the prime minister of Canada at that time is to say something that I

think is not in accordance with the facts. It certainly is not in accordance with my understanding and discussion at that time. The minister went beyond what I thought was the position of the prime minister of Canada at that time, who was pretty careful in these things. I do not want to rethresh old straw because I do not think it is germane at the moment. Surely the minister would wish to leave the matter there. My remarks still stand about him giving this matter further consideration in the future. Despite the views the minister may have at the moment I think this must be viewed as a long term matter. We have constantly to keep before us the absolute necessity of effective co-ordination and good working relationships with the councils of all municipalities in the area.
There is one other matter that the minister passed over a bit lightly, namely the Expropriation Act. While technically the Expropriation Act may come under the jurisdiction of the Minister of Justice, it is almost of exclusive concern of the Minister of Public Works because he heads up the two large expropriating bodies in Canada, namely the national capital commission and the Department of Public Works. I would hope that he would concern himself directly with this problem because the legislation does need modernizing. While it may be a difficult subject to deal with I would hope that he would address himself to the problem. I ask him to do so. I remind him that he seems to have overlooked a very important fact in this connection, namely that very early in this session my colleague from Essex East introduced a bill to amend the Expropriation Act in one very important particular. I think I should draw this to the attention of the minister because he seems to have overlooked it. The explanatory note of the bill reads as follows:
The purpose of this bill is to amend the Expropriation Act so as to require the minister, in the name of the crown, to give notice of intention to all interested parties of the crown's intention to take or acquire lands or any interest therein.
This procedure would be in accordance with the principles recognized and declared in the Canadian Bill of Rights.
On this anniversary of the bill of rights I think the Minister of Public Works would do well to take note of the point raised by my colleague in Bill No. C-63. I hope that he will have it embodied in the new bill when it comes forward.


Gordon Campbell Chown: Shall the item carry?


William Arnold Peters: Before the item carries may I say I have been interested in the remarks of the hon. members from the capital area. I am

sorry there are not more of them with us today because a number of things have been raised today that would be of interest to them and of which the commission should take note.
I congratulate the commission on the work that it has done, particularly in this adventure for citizenship in which the Rotary club and the national capital commission have jointly co-operated because it has given opportunity to members from areas other than those directly connected with the national capital commission jurisdiction to see some of the work and projects that are being undertaken. I also congratulate them on the tour of the national capital commission area which they arranged recently, advantage of which was taken by some members of the house. It provided an opportunity to see some of the developments that are taking place in the area.
I recommend strongly that the request of the hon. member for Ottawa West that Charlotte Whitton be appointed to the commission be given consideration by the government. This might be a hardship on the commission because city council and the board of control have undergone hardship, but I do think there is an obligation to bring together the commission and the city of Ottawa. The beautification of the city of Ottawa and works in that regard are in the main the responsibility of the national capital commission and I think there should be more cooperation with respect to some of the things that are going on in the area.
I support the hon. member for Ottawa West with regard to the matter of expropriation and also the question of how extensive the green belt is going to be. I have received some representations regarding disputes from lawyers in the area involved in certain property deals. Real estate deals are going on continually in what is considered to be the green belt area and these lawyers find that commercial enterprises are being established in an area where it had been indicated that expropriation was going to take place. The hon. member for Carleton does not need to shake his head. The area I am referring to is in the county of Russell across the Rideau river. There is considerable misunderstanding on the part of people there. They are not being allowed to build homes on the land while at the same time motels, golf driving ranges and so on are being established. In my opinion and in the opinion of many of the lawyers involved this has created an opportunity for some people to make money to which they probably should not have been entitled.
I should also like to congratulate the commission on the parks that come under their jurisdiction. I would simply request that they 90205-6-466
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take care that they do not follow the practice of the province of Ontario which has continually increased the entrance fee to its parks over the past few years. If the government is going to provide the commission with close to $9 million this year, the parks should be made available to the largest number of people possible so that they can enjoy the benefits. I do not believe it is expected that these parks will be self sustaining. We intend to continue to spend money for the maintenance and upkeep of these parks because it is not expected that the revenue will be sufficient for that purpose.
There has been a great deal of discussion this afternoon about Sussex street. I think Sussex street is not in too bad shape. What I object to particularly is the condition of Wellington street in front of the parliament buildings. It seems to me that some consideration should be given to this street by the national capital commission because they seem to be one of the very few departments of government that really spend a lot of money, time and effort on planning. If they decide to do something about Wellington street, possibly it is within their jurisdiction to consider the matter of providing parking facilities off parliament hill. There seems to be no reason why they could not erect a building to provide parking facilities for the cars that normally park on the hill. Fees could be collected for the cars stored in such a building. Certainly the people who work here, senators and even members of parliament should be able to pay for parking facilities.
It seems to me that expediency has prevailed over aesthetic values because the hill should be a place of trees, gardens and parks. Many of the little parking lots that have been established on the hill have been placed there as temporary expedients pending the solution of what is obviously a very complicated problem. If the commission were to make a strong enough recommendation for off-the-hill parking, I think arrangements could probably be made for facilities on the other side of Wellington street that would meet my desire to have attractive government buildings on that street and at the same time would be functional as far as parking is concerned. The problem is a temporary one but so far it has not been solved. The amount of parking on the hill is very restricted and cannot be extended to any great extent. In my view the present situation detracts from the appearance of parliament hill.
There is another problem to which I should like the commission to give some consideration. Complaints have been made to me by a number of people respecting certain areas

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in Gatineau park. In particular I have reference to the Ottawa ski club area. I have received many complaints from young people that if they want to go into that area in the winter they have to pay a sum of money to enter the area, even though the commission assists in maintaining the roads. I think this problem could easily be eliminated if the commission would sit down with officials of the Ottawa ski club and other organizations similarly involved. I believe that much more co-operative arrangements could be worked out which would serve the needs of the community. It may be that the commission might see fit to buy the Ottawa ski club facilities because it seems to me that they are winter facilities used by the people for their enjoyment in the same way that the facilities of a place like lac Philippe are used by the people in the summer. I think these matters should be given some consideration and I know that if the commission finds these suggestions worth while consideration will be given to them.


Mr. Smith (Lincoln):: Mr. Chairman, I should like the minister to explain very briefly what control the national capital commission has over the location and design of new government buildings. I am particularly interested in the national war museum and I have brought up this matter on several occasions. I know that the operation of the museum comes under the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources and that the matter of a new building would come under the Department of Public Works. However, if the national capital commission has any say as to the location and planning of new buildings, can the minister tell us whether they have any plan in mind for the provision of a new building for the national war museum? I find this is a very popular place with tourists, especially young people, but the present building is certainly too small and does not do justice to many of the fine exhibits there.


David James Walker: I shall look into that.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
['I shall look into that.']
Gordon Campbell Chown: This completes the estimates of the Department of Public Works. We now turn to a consideration of-


William Arnold Peters: Mr. Chairman, may I call it six o'clock?


Gordon Campbell Chown: There would have to be unanimous consent of the committee given to any such direction. Is the committee prepared to give unanimous consent?


Some hon. Members:: No.


Gordon Campbell Chown: We turn now to the
estimates of the Department of Forestry, item No. 152.



[Stage Direction]
152. Departmental administration, $1,090,452.
(Translation):
Mr. Pigeon:: Mr. Chairman, the province of Quebec has 25 per cent of Canada's productive forests. Forests are most important to this country. First, they are a source of substantial income for the pulp, paper and lumber industry. Second, there is a close relation between our forests and our waterways, because the former control and regulate the flow of surface waters and at the same time constitute water reserves. Third, they are ideal hunting and fishing grounds. So we must protect our forests.
In addition to the funds spent by the provincial and federal governments through the Minister of Forestry (Mr. Flemming), we have 4-H clubs accomplishing fine work in co-operation with the Quebec government in particular.
Our legislation should me made more stringent in order to put a stop to the negligence of those who are responsible for forest fires.
Second, the sale of Christmas trees should be closely supervised. In my opinion, there is abuse in that field.
Third, our youth should be taught in schools to respect our trees.
I should like to ask the minister whether he has taken steps through his officials or the civil service commission, to recruit forestry engineers or scientists in the universities of the province of Quebec, in view of the fact that there are not enough bilingual civil servants in the forestry department considering the important role which the province of Quebec is called upon to play since it has 25 per cent of Canada's productive forests.
I should also like to ask the minister whether the government intends to appoint, in the near future, a French speaking and bilingual assistant deputy minister to the Department of Forestry.
(Text):


Mr. Badanai:: I cannot let the estimates of this important department go by without making a few observations. I rise also to extend to the new minister, or shall I say the first minister, of forestry, my sincere congratulations upon his appointment and best wishes for the successful administration

of a department which is of great importance to my constituency. My constituency is economically dependent, to a very large extent, on forests and forest products.
I had the great pleasure, Mr. Chairman, of introducing the minister to the people of Fort William on his first visit to the lake-head on May 24 when he addressed the Fort William Canadian club. It was a gathering of a cross-section of the business, professional and trades people of both cities, including a special group interested in the forest industry. Measured by the reaction of press, radio and television, the minister's visit was a great success. His speech, which contained promises of plans for rapid expansion of research activities in forest products marketing, was well received. I should say also that his visit provided an excellent opportunity for the minister to get personally acquainted with some of our people directly and indirectly interested in the success of federal forestry policy.
The pulp and paper industry is one of the major employers of labour in our district. The same can be said, of course, for the whole of northwestern Ontario. A great number of our farmers are dependent for a goodly portion of their income upon the operation of woodlots. I express the hope, Mr. Chairman, that the minister, who has many years of practical experience in woods operations, will take into account the welfare of these farmers by rendering some form of federal assistance in marketing their wood. I express the hope, too, that he will explore the possibility for improving production and management as well as the possibility of developing an industry related to farming in forestry. These possibilities should be carefully investigated with a view to bettering rural community life by stabilizing farm population. An aggressive federal Department of Forestry, in co-operation with the provinces, may well undertake these developments with a view to bringing about a new era for the woodlot farmers of Canada.
The government should make credit available to these woodlot farmers to improve their holdings. A better system of approving loans than that which the farm credit corporation used in assessing the value of farm holdings in the district of Thunder bay should be adopted. Because of the distorted method of determining whether or not an applicant is eligible for a loan, very few applicants were able to qualify.
An economic survey of northwestern Ontario issued by the Ontario department of economics contains some very interesting data concerning the income of pulp and paper workers, which is shown to be well 90205-6-466J
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above the average for industrial and construction workers. The forests of Thunder bay have built the towns of Red Rock, Terrace Bay, Nipigon, Long Lac and Marathon. There should be no need, really, to stress the importance of the pulp and paper and lumber industries to the well being of Canada. The evidence of this fact is there for everyone to see. The forest industry alone of the great national, basic industries receives no subsidy. It is not seeking any. Yet, when you compare the annual production from the forest industry with the annual production of agriculture and mining, you find without doubt this industry produces the greatest total buying power and contributes vastly more to a favourable trade balance, supports the greatest export trade and produces the largest tax revenues if we combine the taxes levied by both provincial and federal governments.
Our federal government spends approximately $6 million each year on forest administration and research, $25 million on mining administration, research and subsidies; $80 million in agriculture administration, research and subsidies.
What are the revenues from these basic industries? Federal and provincial governments together receive a $230 million annual revenue from agriculture of which they spend $150 million. From the forests these two senior governments receive $275 million of which they spend a combined total of $45 million. From the figures it can be seen that we can afford to be a little more generous towards the basic industry for which we should be very thankful.
Mr. D. W. Ambridge, president of Abitibi Pulp and Paper Company, speaking at the annual lakehead district credit union banquet, recently recounted some of his observations on a recent European tour that he had made as a member of a government delegation to investigate common market countries. Mr. Ambridge made the statement that amazing development was evident in Europe. I wish to quote from the Thursday, June 22 issue of the Fort William Times Journal just a few remarks from his address:
"-Today Europe's economy is progressing much faster than ours," he remarked.
He said he was impressed with the close co-operation between government, industry and labour.
"What we've got to realize in Canada ... is that we have no great ticket to prosperity."
Mr. Ambridge said Finland will soon launch 600,000 tons of newsprint on the world market and has every intention of pushing out Canada. He added the Finns built paper mills with loans from the world bank as a step in alleviating the unemployment situation.
"We have to take note of these things," he urged. "We have to be alive to the fact we can not prosper without effort."

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Mr. Macdonnell:: Will the hon. member permit a question?


Hubert Badanai: Yes.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Will he say who that was he was quoting? I refer to what he has just finished reading.


Hubert Badanai: 
Mr. Jung:: Mr. Chairman, may I also join with my colleagues in extending congratulations to the minister on his appointment to this very important portfolio of Minister of Forestry. Since his appointment, the minister has visited our province of British Columbia and his speeches have been well received. I wish to assure him that we look forward to seeing more of him.
I wish to say a few words on the need to provide greater and better forest fire protection. In view of the great number of forest fires which are raging across the country at
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this moment, I suggest that what I have to say can be classed as urgent. British Columbia has a very large stake in timber and in forestry products. The value of our lumber production and saw mill products in 1958 amounted to $356 million according to figures prepared by the dominion bureau of statistics. In 1960 we expect that the value of our lumber production will have reached an astronomical $738 million, an increase of $68 million over 1959. The next most productive province in 1958, by way of comparison, was Quebec with $76 million. It is therefore obvious that forestry is British Columbia's major industry. However, this major industry suffers very greatly each year because of inadequate forest fire protection. On a national basis, the cost of forest fire fighting amounted to $7.7 million in 1958, and the total damage and fire fighting costs for the same year were calculated to be $22.2 million, an amount almost twice the total budget for the Department of Forestry for this year.
We in British Columbia suffered disastrously in 1958 because in that year we had the worst fire season in history. Fire fighting costs and damage amounted to $13 million, almost equal to the total budget for this department. Huge though these sums might be, they still do not take into account such value as damage to soil, streamflow, wildlife, recreation and tourist facilities. Recent events from British Columbia to Newfoundland indicate that this is going to be another very bad year for this country, because the June 24 issue of the Vancouver Province devoted almost its entire front page to news about forest fires. The headline was, and I quote: "Huge Water Bomber Crashes, 4 Die". Another headline was "Flying 'Fire Engine' Just a Ghost Now." And then, on the second page were more headlines, and I quote again: "Forest Risk puts 3,000 Out of Work." On the same page was another headline reading: "Newfoundland Fires Drive 2,000 from Homes." If I remember correctly, yesterday's banner from the Toronto Telegram read: "Forest Fires Worst in Years."
What, then, can we do to provide adequate fire protection bearing in mind that the major share of the responsibility lies with the provincial government? I think, Mr. Chairman, that the minister should consider the establishment of a national forest fire service similar in concept to our recently established Canadian marine service. This will be composed of a highly mobile fleet of suitable aircraft such as Otters and helicop-

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ters. The usefulness of such an airborne fire fighting service has been well demonstrated in the province of Ontario, where up to this present year there has been a steady decrease in the number of forest fires, climaxed in 1959 when only 5,279 acres were burnt over. This figure represents the lowest loss in three decades and it clearly demonstrates what can be done by a program of public education and effective fire fighting measures. Ontario has a fleet of six Otters and 39 Beavers which are specially designed to scoop up water as the aircraft taxis over the lake. The water is then dispersed over the fire in an effective wetting action. In many cases two or three well placed loads have doused the fire to such an extent that an incoming ground crew had only to extinguish the smouldering embers. So effective has been this technique that the fire loss in Ontario has been reduced from an average of 75 acres per fire in the 1949-58 decade to an average of five acres per fire in 1959.
We in British Columbia have had similar good results with water bombing. The water bomber which crashed on June 24 started its work in very dramatic fashion. On June 17, one week before it crashed, the Vancouver Province carried the following article:
Water bomber proves worth by hitting fire
The big Martin Mars water bomber passed its first real test Friday when nearly 50,000 gallons were dropped on a difficult forest fire at Espinosa inlet, near Tahsis, on Vancouver island.
It made eight drops to dampen and cool the fire sufficiently to allow ground crews in to control it.
The fire, on three acres of a steep, narrow valley in an operation of the Stoltze and Sons Logging Company Limited, was fanned by strong winds and quickly covered about 40 acres.
This technique of containment emphasizes that there must be two ingredients for effective fire protection, namely, early spotting of the fire, and immediate preventive action by air, followed by prompt action by ground personnel. Because ground personnel must be brought in to ensure that the fire is completely out, I suggest that helicopters should be an integral part of the national forest fire service.
I think that the establishment of such a service is well within the resources of the federal government. I note that approximately $6.8 million will be contributed this year to the provinces for fire protection, forest inventory, reforestry action and other aspects of forest management. Twenty four Otters with spare parts would cost only $3.6 million. We could have these aircraft stationed across Canada at strategic locations.
More might be necessary, but 24 would be a very good start. We could enter an agreement with the provinces concerned to fly and maintain the aircraft, or we could assume full responsibility for this service and reduce the yearly grants which we would make in the future to the provinces.
I can envisage all sorts of interesting arrangements being worked out with the provinces. For example, the provinces could provide the helicopters and the manpower required to deal with the fires on the ground because obtaining crews could be accomplished more easily by the local authorities. If we had an effective air fire service then fires would be checked in their early stages. We would not require the large number of men required in the past, some of whom were not trained in this activity and were often commandeered to do this type of thing. A small highly trained corps of fire fighters working in conjunction with the air service which I have suggested should go a long way toward reducing the damage caused by forest fires.
The minister announced in Nanaimo in April of this year that army and air force personnel would be available to help fight forest fires. I am pleased with that announcement, particularly as I urged this move last year during the debate on the estimates of the Department of National Defence. However, I have had second thoughts on this proposal because, if we were to use service personnel and aircraft not specifically designed for fire fighting we might be depriving the armed forces of men and equipment at a time when they should be deployed elsewhere. However, until such time as we do establish an alternative we, of course, welcome the assistance of the army and the air force. None the less, I think that a separate service is preferable, and my suggestion of creating a national forest fire service has the advantage of providing not only a further stimulus to our aircraft industry but also something which is of particular and urgent national need.
(Translation):


Mr. Clermont:: Mr. Chairman, we are at present on item No. 1 of the estimates of the new Department of Forestry. Some would have preferred it to be named the "Department of Forest Research" or "Department of Silviculture" since paragraph 5 of section 92 of the British North America Act gives the

provinces the exclusive power to administer as they see fit the forests within their boundaries and the federal government has responsibility in that field only as concerns the administration of forests in the Northwest Territories and the Yukon. Pursuant to Bill C-82, clause 6, 1960, an act respecting the Department of Forestry, the federal government:
Shall provide for the conduct of research relating to the protection, management and utilization of the forest resources;
May undertake, promote or recommend measures for the encouragement of public co-operation in the protection and wise use of the forest resources. With the approval of the governor in council, may enter into agreements with the government of any province, etc.-
Mr. Chairman, forest industry occupies a most important position in the economy of my riding, of the province of Quebec and Canada as a whole.
It gives me pleasure to congratulate the first incumbent of the portfolio of the new Department of Forestry, the hon. member for Royal (Mr. Flemming) and I know that he has had practical experience in the production and marketing of forest products.
Mr. Chairman, over 40 per cent of the total area of the ten provinces is productive forest lands. It is nearly four times the area under cultivation, which gives an idea of the extent of our forest resources.
The pulp and paper industry is Canada's foremost manufacturing industry, and the lumbering, plywood and veneer industries are also very important.
Those industries are spread out across Canada from coast to coast, and apart from producing materials of great value, they rank among our main sources of employment.
Mr. Chairman, wood, wood products and paper are responsible for a much greater part of Canada's active trade balance than any other group of goods registered in federal statistics. Moreover, a considerable part of this active trade balance is made up of American funds.
In September 1959, the world food and agricultural organization produced a report on paper and paper products and stated, in brief, that the demand for paper and paper products, which was of the order of 56 million metric tons in 1955, would reach 88 million metric tons by 1965 and 134 million metric tons by 1975.
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Mr. Chairman, Canada now supplies approximately 16 per cent of the world demand. If we want to maintain that share, we shall have to sell 14 million metric tons by 1965, which means raising our production by 50 per cent in relation to the basic year 1955. Around 1975, we will have to supply 21 million metric tons, which means raising our production by 123 per cent in relation to the basic year.
Mr. Chairman, I should like to refer to the introduction, on page 1, of "The Outlook for the Canadian Forest Industries", published in March 1957 by the royal commission on Canada's economic prospects, and I quote:
Even in Canada, few realize the country's dependence upon its forest resources. Great construction projects, especially in connection with power, metal mining, oil and, recently, natural gas, have received great publicity. Yet they are small by comparison. Today, one of every 12 Canadians working in the nation's goods-producing industries is concerned with forestry or the manufacture of forest products. More than one third of Canada's total export earnings comes from the sale elsewhere of logs, paper, wood pulp, and lumber and its related products. Of all the manufacturing industries in Canada, that of pulp and paper stands first in terms of wages paid, first in new investment and first in net value of output. Its production in dollar terms is greater than that of the nation's wheat crop; more than twice that of all the nation's metal mines. In 1954, Canada's saw mills, with the second largest industrial wage bill, ran third in export earnings and fourth in net value of production.
Mr. Chairman, at this point of our discussion on the estimates of the Department of Forestry, I should like to give some figures concerning the forest industry, first of all with regard to the number of establishments, and then with regard to the number of people employed in those industries and the salaries and wages paid. Those figures, which relate to the year 1959, were given to me by the dominion bureau of statistics, forest products division.
Mr. Chairman, the first figures I quote are in relation to the whole of Canada and the second to the province of Quebec which I represent here like other hon. members.
In 1959, the lumber industry in Canada comprised 8,885 different firms, 1,575 of which were in the province of Quebec.
As far as the pulp and paper industry is concerned, we had 127 mills in Canada, of which 54 were located in Quebec.
Canadian industries using wood as their raw material numbered 4,079 of which 1,504 were in Quebec.

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Veneer and plywotfd plants numbered 72 in Canada and 24 in the province of Quebec.
The following figures, Mr. Chairman, concern the number of persons employed as well as the salaries and wages paid by those industries.
As far as the forest industry proper is concerned, the number of employees in 1959, equalled 82,551 men in a single year, for a total amount of salaries and wages of $347,406,000. For the same industry, we had in the province of Quebec, for the equivalent of a year, 30,850 employees who earned a total of $117,741,000.
In 1959, there were 65,028 people working in the pulp and paper industry and the total salaries paid out was $322,311,000. As for the province of Quebec, there were 27,239 employees who earned a total of $131,913,000.
In 1959, 48,659 people derived their livelihood from the lumber industry in Canada and the total salaries paid out by that industry amounted to $144,759,000. For the same period, that industry employed 7,963 people in the province of Quebec and paid a total of $16,900,070 in salaries.
There were in the country 11,607 people with gross earnings of $40,600,058 in the veneer and plywood industry. In the province of Quebec, that industry ensured the livelihood of 2,609 people and paid out a total of $7.3 million in salaries.
In 1958, there were 73,159 people employed in the industry where wood is used as a raw material; they earned $226,882,000. The corresponding figures for the province of Quebec were 23,464 employees and $64,636,000.
Mr. Chairman, the forest industry is most important in the riding of Labelle which I represent in this house. On March 23 last, I stated in the house, as reported on page 3284 of Hansard, during consideration of another department's estimates, that many farmers of my riding have to work in the forest industry to supplement the insufficiency of the income they get from the sale of their agricultural products. That industry employs several thousand people. There is a veneer and plywood mill in Mont Laurier, a furniture manufacture in L'Annonciation and, in Thurso, where I live, a pulp and paper mill and a cabinet-making department. Besides, there are several saw mills, planing mills and sash and door manufacturers elsewhere.

Mr. Chairman, I should like to say a word about the sale and distribution of forestry products. I regret that the federal government has not seen fit to take action on a recommendation we find on page 669 of the third report of the mines, forests and waters committee which was tabled in the house on July 4, 1959 and which reads as follows:
Your committee feels that Canada cannot afford to neglect the vast potential Asiatic markets for the sale of lumber and pulpwood. It recommends that open-minded negotiations be undertaken with those countries. Our traditional share of the British and American markets is undergoing a change and we should look into the situation. Your committee recommends the establishment of a sales branch within the proposed forestry department. Such a branch would second the efforts of the Department of Trade and Commerce to promote the sale of our wood products.
Mr. Chairman, the sale of lumber and of our veneer and plywood products faces stronger competition on our traditional markets in the United States and in the United Kingdom.
In the United Kingdom our soft lumber has to compete with the products of the Soviet block and the Scandinavian countries. Besides having to compete in Europe against trade areas such as the common market, the outer seven, the Soviet bloc and others which are developing over there, in order to remove tariff barriers within their territories where services, labour and capital will be able to move as if there were no international boundaries, it is to be expected that tariff barriers will be set up against the countries which are not part of the areas concerned.
Mr. Chairman, in order to show the importance of our forest product exports, I shall quote figures given to me by the forestry division of the dominion bureau of statistics.
In 1959, we exported to Great Britain 671,-
359,000	f.b.m. of timber, or a total value of $53,052,264. In the same year, we exported to the United States 3,485,512,000 f.b.m. of timber, or a total value of $259,581,652. For the same year, our exports of plywood to the United Kingdom reached 1,517,000 f.b.m., valued at $41,337, while our exports to the United States reached 495,343,000 f.b.m., or $16,973,153.
Again in 1959, we exported to the United Kingdom 155,298,000 f.b.m. of plywood, averaging three quarters of an inch thick, for a value of $10,476,336. During the same year, we exported 28,814,000 f.b.m. of plywood of a total value of $4,596,826 to the U.S.

Mr. Chairman, as far as our domestic markets and the sales of our soft and hardwood species are concerned, it is a well known fact that when construction is up, so is the demand for our wood products. But as family housing construction declined last year, our lumber producers were also affected.
At this point of my remarks, and in relation with the competition on the lumber market, I should like to quote an excerpt from the report of the royal commission on Canada's economic prospects:
To assume that the marketing of Canadian forest products will present no serious problem would be naive.
Then there is also the possibility that the manufacture of newsprint and other pulps from alternative materials will become an economic reality: that potential markets in a number of relatively underdeveloped countries will be shut off by the erection there of newsprint mills based on extensive local resources such as bagasse (sugar-cane waste) or tropical hardwoods-
But the most disconcerting question mark of all has to do with the possible competition of countries behind the iron curtain and especially Russia whose forest resources are tremendous.
Mr. Chairman, I see on pages 225 and 226 of the estimates for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1962, that the number of civil servants in the administrative branch of the Department of Forestry has increased from 110 in 1960-61 to 188 in 1961-62. I should hope that French speaking or bilingual employees are in adequate number to give satisfaction and justice to the thousands of French speaking Canadians engaged in the production of forest products in Quebec.
Mr. Chairman, in March 1961, the Minister of Forestry announced the appointment of the following senior officials in his department: Mr. H. W. Beall, Ottawa, executive director of the new department; Mr. J. H. Jenkins, Vancouver, director of research on forest products; Mr. D. R. Redmond, Upper Musquodoboit, N.S., director of forestry research and Mr. M. L. Prebble, Saint John, N.B., director of forest entomology and pathology.
I should like to quote a few excerpts from an editoral written by Mr. Jean Taillefer, parliamentary reporter of Le Droit, under the title: "A matter of efficiency". This article appeared in Le Droit of March 13, 1961. I quote:
It is to be noted, though, that no one from Quebec has been appointed to any of the higher
positions.
The lack of Quebec representation is all the more surprising since forestry is one of the main industries of that province. It ranks second on a national scale, having 88.000 square miles of developed forest land. Only Ontario, with 101,000 square miles has more forest land than Quebec. Can we, therefore, believe that Quebec has no experts in that field?
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Why is it so important to have bilingual personnel? For a very simple reason, which has nothing to do with emotionalism-efficiency.
Mr. Chairman, it should not be forgotten that the province of Quebec has a great number of French speaking forest producers, operating on a medium or a small scale, and I hope that the minister will see to it that somebody from Quebec is appointed when other important appointments are made in his department.
(Text):


Mr. MacLellan:: Mr. Chairman, I was very pleased to note the increase in forestry over the last year, which coincides with the time that the new minister has been in office. We from the maritime area were very proud to see a member from our area take the portfolio of forestry. We recognize that in the minister who now holds that post we have a man who knows the forest industry and is very interested in the development of what is one of our most important Atlantic industries.
I have before me an article in the Cape Breton Post of Friday December 30, 1960, referring to a speech by Mr. R. M. Fowler, the president of the Canadian Pulp and Paper Association and the newsprint association of Canada. In the article Mr. Fowler is reported as having said that 1960 was a very good year in forestry and his figures showed an increase of 5 per cent in the output of the Canadian pulp and paper industry last year. Mr. Fowler also pointed out that newsprint production in 1960 was a record at about
6,735,000	tons, 4 per cent above the previous high of 1956. Quoting Mr. Fowler, the article goes on to say:
This increase was the largest shown in any of the last 13 years and was more than the modest amount of new productive capacity which became available in Canada during the year. As a result, newsprint operating ratios averaged about 88.5 per cent compared with 85 per cent of a smaller capacity in 1959.
He also went on to ooint out that shipments overseas were almost 20 per cent higher than in 1959, with increases to the United Kingdom, Australia and South America being particularly large. Speaking ot tne future he said that he expected to see substantial increases in the markets for Canadian newsprint and paper products generally.
The matter of forestry is very important to me because in my riding at the present time there is being constructed a pulp mill which will have a marked effect upon the province of Nova Scotia in the years ahead. In 1959, at the invitation of the government of Nova Scotia and with the assistance provided by the government, Stora Kopperberg

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of Sweden and the Scott Paper people of the United States combined to form Nova Scotia Pulp Limited and began construction of a $40 million mill. The target date for the operation of the mill is January, 1962. The mill will produce 250 tons per day and 125,000 tons a year of high grade pulp. It will utilize
250,000	cords a year of eight-foot pulpwood sticks, almost 800 cords a day and at peak times some 2,000 cords a day. If this pulp-wood were stacked in a continuous four-foot pile, it would be some 380 miles long. It would extend from Cape North in Inverness county to Yarmouth at the other end of the province. Most of the wood, it is estimated, will come from the seven eastern counties of Nova Scotia where there are some 3.3 million acres of productive forest land. About 1 million of these acres are owned by the crown in the right of the province and the balance is privately owned.
One of the reasons the provincial government was so interested in bringing Stora Kop-perberg into the province was that this firm had been, for many years, operating in Sweden and had learned there the most modern and best ways of forest management. Under its contract with the province, it will set up a proper forest management operation on the crown lands and will assist private woodlot owners in every way possible to farm their wood lands in the most productive manner in terms of the pulp which will be needed in the years ahead. Under the plan divisional foresters will be set up at New Glasgow, Port Hawkesbury and Baddeck.
The impact of this new mill upon the economy of the province can be illustrated by the fact that the pulp cut in Nova Scotia in 1958 was some 270,874 cords, and in 1959 was 288,029 cords. If we add to this the 250,000 cords that will be required by Nova Scotia Pulp Limited each year, it will be seen that the new mill will almost double the demand for pulpwood in the province of Nova Scotia. It has been estimated that the new money involved, in the hands of the people cutting pulp alone, will be in excess of some $10 million a year. In addition to the new market which has been developed this way in eastern Nova Scotia, over the last year we have seen a very marked increase in the demand for pulpwood for export. New markets have opened up in Europe, particularly in western Germany and shipments are being made now from Louisburg and it is proposed there will be some from Whycocomagh in Inverness county. I have before the Minister of Public Works now proposals to provide special wharfage facilities at Whycocomagh, Louisburg and Port Hastings to facilitate the shipment of this pulp. I hope that something can
[Mr. MacLellan.l
be provided at these centres as soon as possible to assist this rapidly growing industry.
I notice that all members when speaking on the estimates of this department referred to the necessity, in terms of the future of Canada, of forest management plans which will provide for the very substantial need for forest products in the future. There was a time when Canada could afford to waste its forest products, but that time has now gone. We must look forward in the years ahead to ensuring that we have a sufficient cut to meet the new markets and the new demands which are opening up. Apropos of that, Mr. Chairman, I would point out that in the province of Nova Scotia, more than in any other province, this is a particularly important question. I spoke a moment ago of the large market for pulpwood there will be in the province after January, 1962.
It is interesting to note that Nova Scotia has a rather small productive forested land compared with other provinces. Nova Scotia has some 9,668,000 acres of productive forested land. Our neighbours in New Brunswick have some 15,237,000 acres. Nova Scotia has less than 10 per cent of the forested land of Quebec where there is over 140 million acres of productive forested land. The province of Ontario has some 106 million acres of forested land. It will be seen that the necessity for forest management and the preservation of our forests, is much more important and urgent in Nova Scotia than in any other part of Canada because in our province trees are scarcer than elsewhere in relation to the demand that is now developing for pulpwood and for forest products in general. In Nova Scotia every tree must be properly utilized in the years ahead.
However, Mr. Chairman, the difficulties of forest management in Nova Scotia are greater than they are in the other provinces. In Nova Scotia, there is a relatively small part of the forested area which is owned by the crown. About 20 per cent of the forested area in Nova Scotia is crown land. This can be contrasted with about 50 per cent crown ownership in New Brunswick and some 90 per cent in the province of Quebec. The putting into operation of plans for forest management and tree farming is much easier, of course, in provinces where large acreages are owned by the crown and arrangements can easily be made for the development of publicly owned land. The job is much more difficult where, as in Nova Scotia, the task is to bring to the attention of private wood-lot owners how important modern woodlot management is for immediate use and for the preservation of our forests for the future. This is a very difficult problem which will

have to be worked out between the province and the woodlot owners. However, we will have the leadership of Nova Scotia Pulp Limited in solving this problem, and they have some of the best experts in the world in the field of forest management.
I was very pleased, Mr. Chairman, to see the quick way in which the new Department of Forestry, under this new minister, has responded to the need for the development of better forestry practices in Canada, and has generally stimulated the forest industry. The program whereby this government pays 50 per cent of the cost of access roads to be built into timberlands will be particularly helpful in Nova Scotia. I understand that under the program now in effect some 130 miles of boundary line in Inverness county will be cleaned out, some 90 miles in Richmond county, about 90 miles in Cape Breton county and similar mileages in other counties in eastern Nova Scotia. This will facilitate forest management, the preservation of the forest in case of forest fire, and generally give access to the timberlands for the development of better timber operations. While fire is a very dangerous thing in any part of Canada, it is particularly to be feared in Nova Scotia where our forests are so small in relation to the market that is to be developed in the province. I note that 50 per cent of the cost of the equipment for fire protection is now provided by the Department of Forestry. I hope that close liaison will continue between the department of lands and forests in Nova Scotia and the federal Department of Forestry in providing better forest protection in the province of Nova Scotia. The department of lands and forests under the able administration of the Hon. E. Haliburton in Nova Scotia, has a big job ahead in the organizational work which must be done to help the woodlot owners provide the pulpwood for the new mill. As I have said, it represents a doubling of last year's pulpwood cut.
The province will have to initiate an extensive project of education among the private woodlot owners. I think this should be in two forms. There should certainly be adult education among the farmers who own woodlots now directed toward efficient wood-lot management and there should be education in the schools so that our young people will learn proper forest management techniques. Above all, our young people should learn to appreciate the need for proper forest management in the province. I was very pleased to note the special grant that has been provided by the Department of Forestry for emergency work in Cape Breton Island in the months immediately ahead, when extra
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work will be needed because of the unfortunate mine closings. The money set aside to be used along with the contributions of the department of lands and forests in Nova Scotia will certainly give a big impetus to the work that the provinces must do in establishing a satisfactory forestry corps, in providing trees that can be planted on privately owned lands and otherwise in the development of woodlot management practice.
I know it is not within the authority of the federal department to originate very much in a direct way in forestry management practices as this is a matter under the authority and aegis of the province. However, I should like to see the minister do everything he can to assist Nova Scotia in the big job that is ahead in the establishment of illustration stations to teach forest management methods in woodland replanting and so on. Certainly as I watch this new industry mushrooming in the province and realize what a great boom it will give to all of eastern Nova Scotia, it is with particular pleasure that I see as head of the federal Department of Forestry such a good friend of Nova Scotia and such a well known, warmly liked and respected leader from the maritime provinces.


William Arnold Peters: I hope the minister this afternoon, in introducing his estimates for the first time in this new department, will take into consideration some of the officials he has in the gallery and see to it that they are rewarded for having to be here on July 1 which normally should be a holiday for them.
I also hope the minister will take into consideration some of the remarks that have been made, particularly those by such veteran foresters as the hon. member for Kootenay West who is probably one of the only members of the committee who is completely familiar with modernization in the forest industry, controlling and operating as he does a large tract of forest that is not subject to any of the abuses that occur in my area. He has told me on a number of occasions that his land will now produce more lumber than it did when he first started to operate that forest. That certainly is not the situation in my part of the country. This is one of the reasons why I am so pleased that this ministry has been set up and why I suggest that consideration should be given to that type of forest control.
I was very much surprised a few years ago to find that a company with which I was negotiating on behalf of their workers informed me that they expected to be out of that area in five years. The reason I was surprised was that this operation had been continuing under the same company for

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something over 40 years. It seemed to me that if they had cut that long ago on their first limit, they would soon be ready to go back and to start recutting the area which they had previously cut over. I think this was a legitimate hope, and the hope that most Canadians have, namely that our forest industry, because it is renewable, has renewed itself and that we have as much forest today as we had many years ago.
In this case the manager had practised many of the best forms of forest culture without going into such things as assisting nature in reforestation which many of these operators have said is of no value. However, he informed me that it will be at least 90 years before they will be able to make any economical cut of lumber off the first limits this company went over. This seems to me to be something which should be of immediate importance to the department and about which they should try to do something right away.
We have listened many times to those who are interested in silviculture tell us that the forest will regenerate in those areas where reforestation has taken place, that reforestation is a natural thing and that there is not any necessity to help nature along. For those who say this and who think this, may I say that all they have to do is to look a few miles from the city of Ottawa or up the Ottawa valley. They may be surprised to find what has happened to the white pine industry that years ago gave this region such security when it was thought this forest would be perpetual. They only have to look up the Ottawa valley now and note the very limited forests and stands of white pine.
It is quite true that in my area of northern Ontario red pine and jack pine will have a certain amount of regeneration themselves. But because this is a renewable resource, because it is one of the resources that we have and can leave to our children, it behooves us not only to leave it in as good shape as we received it but to leave it in much better shape, and to give consideration to the needs that are already apparent and will become increasingly apparent as the years go by.
This means, of course, that we must concentrate on conservation, and that we must use some of the other resources. We must look to the maintaining and conserving of our water and water resources or we are not going to be able to reforest many of these areas which the Minister of Agriculture now hopes will be brought under an agricultural program for reforestation. If we do not practise conservation in some of the allied fields, this is not going to be possible and we are going to find that the land which has been

cut over-and quite a bit of it in northern Ontario is now completely barren-will grow only scrub forest products for many years to come and that it will be another generation or two before anything of any value is produced in those areas.
I know of one small area where the timber was burnt over and jack pine came up. One of the sad parts of the situation is this. Those interested in silviculture would say that so many seeds germinated in that area and so many live trees were produced per square foot or per square yard whatever they measure it by; and while this was true, those trees reached a height of only 10 feet or 12 feet. They were a very poor type of tree. Fire got into them and they were burnt to the ground. In five or six years they came up again. By this time the trees that had burnt and fallen as a result of the previous fire, again caught fire. This is the sort of thing that has been going on. It has happened three or four times in my lifetime. There is nothing growing in that particular area and it has produced absolutely nothing.
This department has many facets, in my opinion. It has many opportunities to do a great deal of good for Canada and for the Canadian people, and the least of them is not the tourist industry. Of course, the problem we are going to have with a federal forestry department is that it is competing with terrifically rich provincial counterparts. The one in Ontario is probably the most expensive department we have. It is a department that does not take in enough money to pay for its expenditures. It is a particular department that has all types of public facilities for spreading its doctrine or its information. Its educational field is almost unlimited. The federal government is, without doubt, going to have trouble in co-ordinating some of the activities of these departments. One of them would be the problem with the tourist industry. It has been maintained by bush operators that if you allow the tourists in, of course, they will create terrific fire hazards and the limits will suffer as a result of tourist travelling through the bush. However, we have in Ontario, I am sure, been able to solve this to a great extent by having fire ratings, and I am pleased to note that the federal government is now co-ordinating these fire services and fire protection services through the forest research division.
We have found that if you post a rating to the tourist industry and the rating remains medium, the difficulties, for which it does not follow the tourists are responsible, seem to be eliminated to an extent. The travelling of the tourist population through the forests does as much good as it does harm, in my

opinion, because the tourists then see the advantages of forest control, the need for reforestation and the need for roads and other facilities. I hope to live to see the day when many of these areas which are now well cut over, and particularly those which are not, but which are in the process of being cut, may be driven into by car. I hope to see the day when we shall And permanent residences in the forests, and permanent towns, and when the forests will be managed in such a way that we shall have a sustained yield in perpetuity. This can be done, and it has been done in other countries. There is no reason why we should not begin at once working towards perpetuity in the yield of our forest products.
This involves more than the maintenance of the forests. It may be necessary to change the type of tree which we have produced, as has been necessary in the United States. It may be that in a few years we shall have to plant trees of the type they have been planting in some of the southern states and these can be adapted to our climate. Many of these trees can be used in the production of pulp and paper. They have short life span. They will produce much faster than the trees we now use. It is true they produce an inferior grade of paper, but the advantage of the rapid growth and the rapid production of these trees may make it necessary for the department to be aware of their potential and the adaptability of these trees to our area.
There is another field which affects us in northern Ontario and that is in relation to the utilization of forest products. Our white pine industry has had between a 60 per cent and 65 per cent utilization of its products. In other countries it is reported that the utilization sometimes goes up as high as 100 per cent or 98 per cent. They even utilize the leaves, in some cases, they tell me, and put them to some use. In northern Ontario in recent years we have been able to take advantage of developments that are taking place in countries such as Sweden. Some of our manufacturers have gone to Sweden and to Germany and have been able to buy equipment in those countries and learn the knowhow necessary to operate plants, and they are now producing a number of varieties of wood products which are not in competition with the lumber industry. Abitibi is to be congratulated on this, particularly on the development of their chip board plant at Sturgeon Falls. The Jamar Plywood company at Sturgeon Falls has been using poplar wood for making veneer. They are now using a birch veneer face and producing an exceptionally nice type of plywood which is readily saleable at reasonable prices. In previous years in areas that were cut over either the birch
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was cut and left on the ground or it was not cut at all, and many of the old trees, when the spruce and pine were cut down, died because the protection was taken away from them. Those trees that are now useable are being used for this type of veneer. This has produced a whole new industry and provided employment for a great number of employees who could not be employed in the only other industry, that of mining. So, if the government is watching these developments, as are many in the lumbermen's association, the Ontario provincial forestry department and other associations, I am quite sure processes can be developed which will lead to a much greater utilization of our forest resources. This would, of course, also assist in developing and promoting new industries and new types of products such as we have seen develop in the last few years.
I do not know how much work the federal government has done in the past in relation to some of these projects. I was interested in the process which A. J. McFadden were using of taking very short step lumber from their white pine mill, short pieces which would otherwise be useless because of their size, cutting out anything which was of no use and putting them together by an electronic glue process, producing a board four by eight or four by 12 or four by 16. This produced an acceptable product, one suitable for a number of uses. They immediately ran into the problem of maintaining the same moisture content on one side of the board as on the other. It was used for external purposes. The government, it seems to me, could have given them a great deal of assistance at first if they had been active in this particular field.
The federal government, also through the forestry branch, could give more assistance than has been available to the lumber industry in the marketing of lumber products. In eastern Canada, in eastern Ontario, we have been plagued in recent years by the fact that traditional markets in the United States and Asia were lost, in the main, to the west coast. They were immediately in competition with producers in eastern Canada. It appears to me that the federal government, through their own department, in this way will be able to assess much better than it has in the past the necessity of developing a market in China and in the other countries of Asia for the lumber that is produced on the west coast. This lumber, if it is dumped out of its traditional markets into eastern Canada, will seriously affect the prices both of eastern and western lumber.
The hon. member for Vancouver Centre referred to fire control. This has become one of the greatest blights of the forest industry.

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It is one that can eliminate a complete limit, so that a company almost overnight loses its means of survival. Weather, electrical storms, factors over which man has no control at all are playing a great role in this field. I was interested in the hon. member's suggestion that we should use more aircraft, and that we should bring this activity under federal control. I hope the hon. member is right, but I should be very surprised if the federal government is in any position to do anything about fire control in the provincial field unless it be through an increase in the contributions to the provinces in this particular field. It seems to me that fires can be fought only by people on the ground. If these individuals are not placed at the scene of the fire as quickly as possible the fire gets out of control and very little can be done about it at that stage.
I recommend to the government that rather than going into a program of buying aircraft to be used in a national fire protection service, it should increase its appropriations to the provinces, assisting them to continue the work now being done. In my opinion most of the provinces, although I can really only speak for the two, in regard to which I have made observations, are doing a great deal in this field and have proven capable of carrying on, unless of course a province is hit by a disaster such as appears to have hit the province of Newfoundland. The fire prevention techniques used there have had little effect. People there are being accused of setting the fires deliberately for the purpose of creating work. Similar accusations have been made in respect of the province of Ontario, as well as other provinces.
I think this area of fighting forest fires is one in which the federal government should make more contributions. I agree with the hon. member for Vancouver Centre when he suggests army personnel should be used wherever possible and when the necessity arises, but I suggest the army is not the best agency in this regard. While the army contains a readily available force and its personnel are capable of taking orders and doing the job, which is not the case very often in respect to men who are commandeered in areas to fight fires, it is not the most effective agency which could be used. Incidentally, among the individuals commandeered to fight fires in specific areas are included white collar workers and the like who are not accustomed to using shovels and the other tools, such as pumps, used to fight fires, and do not make good fire fighters even in cases of emergency. I do agree that army personnel should be used but suggest, however, that the major contribution this government could

make toward fire fighting lies in the field of research and the provision of assistance to the provinces.
One of the last subjects to which I wish to refer has relation to a government agency such as the industrial development bank through which financial assistance can be given to companies not in a position to expend the necessary amounts of money for the installation of efficient fire fighting equipment. Many mills now operating in the province of Ontario are poorly equipped in this regard, and perhaps not sufficiently informed as to the proper use of the equipment they have so as to make full use of it, or the equipment which they might acquire if funds were made available for that purpose.
This department can give assistance to these companies in two ways. First, by conducting a survey regarding the anticipated yield over the next few years which these different mills should enjoy. In other words, the department should help these companies assess their anticipated yields and instruct them in the efficient and advantageous operation of their mills in this regard.
For example, in northern Ontario there are a number of portable mills in operation. They are usually put in on a limited cut basis and under normal circumstances take only the cream of the crop leaving the rest standing in the area. As a result it is not advantageous for anyone else to come in and service the limit as I believe it should be serviced. It might be much more advantageous to these companies to put in mills even smaller than portable mills. The portable mills now in use are portable only in the sense that they can be moved with a great deal of effort by truck, but some of them in my area cut up to 100,000 feet per day. I am sure the minister will agree that type of mill is not portable in the normal sense.
The modernization program which I have suggested can be undertaken only if the companies involved are provided with new sources of money. I suggest that in many cases they do not possess the necessary information to convince the officials of the industrial development bank that their operations are such to warrant the lending of the amount of money required.
They are not in possession of that type of information only because they have neglected to hire accountants and agents to provide them with it. Officials of this department or other experts are much more able to assess the situation and make recommendations which, if followed, could possibly lead to the continuation of a successful industry upon which communities have depended for many years.

I hope the minister in closing the debate will indicate that he is receiving co-operation from provincial governments in the implementation of this necessarily continuous program in an attempt to perpetuate the yield from this type of operation so that those industries which have failed in the past years can be rejuvenated and put back into production with resultant benefit to the communities which have depended upon them for their livelihood.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Chairman, I regret very much that I have to rise on a question of privilege in connection with certain remarks made by the hon. member for Timiskaming in referring to the member for Kootenay West. In view of that hon. member's kindly and glowing references to my forestry activities I should not like the impression created that I am in any sense of the word a capitalist, because I am a socialist.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I am a socialist who looks upon himself as a trustee for the nation until the advent of democratic socialism.


Mr. Bell (Saint John-Albert):: Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. member a question. Would the description feudal lord be a little more appropriate?


William Arnold Peters: Mr. Chairman, I did not intend that my remarks be construed to mean that anyone connected with the forest industry was a capitalist. I should think anyone interested in that field would be well aware of the fact that most socialistic countries manage their forests in a very efficient manner. I believe the hon. member for Kootenay West is advocating a program followed by most socialist countries-Sweden is a good example-of up to date, advantageous and efficient forestry control.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, I cannot compete with the hon. member for Kootenay West either as a member of the feudal class or as a socialist, because my connection with the forest industry was quite a long time ago and highly proletarian. I worked in a box factory once at Norwood for 20 cents per hour.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


John Whitney Pickersgill: And subsequently spent a summer timber cruising at $35 per month.


An hon. Member:: You were overpaid.


John Whitney Pickersgill: That was quite a long time ago when the dollar stretched much further than it does at the present time.
I did not intend to speak on this subject but am prompted to do so after listening to
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the hon. member for Inverness-Richmond, because I want to reinforce an excellent point he made. Before doing that I should like to say a word or two about an observation made by the hon. member for Timiskaming.
It so happens, as every hon. member of this house knows, that there have been very serious fires in my constituency which actually destroyed some of the houses in one of the settlements and threatened the total existence of a great many others. Happily the rain we had there two or three days ago seems to have removed the threat. Unless there is a good deal more rain-and there has been vei'y little in Newfoundland since a year ago this spring-that threat is bound to persist.
The appeal made by the hon. member for Timiskaming, and possibly by other hon. members when I was not in the chamber is one in which I should like to join heartily. I believe that anything the new Department of Forestry can do to aid in research into more effective methods of fighting fires will be one of the most productive expenditures of public money that can possibly be made in this country because it still happens, notwithstanding our great mineral wealth and all the other resources of this country, that the two greatest crops we grow in Canada are trees and grain; and if we look after our basic soil and our basic resources we can continue to grow them for all time. It seems that this year, because of weather conditions, both of them are seriously threatened. We know that millions and millions of dollars of public funds have been expended over the years in research into the various aspects of the wheat industry, and we know that all that has been spent has been more than repaid many times over in additional returns not merely to the farmers but to the whole Canadian economy. The forest industry is, I suppose, today the biggest single source of income to the Canadian people as a whole if we look at all of its ramifications. It is indeed fitting that at this time we should be recognizing that fact by having a separate department of government, though we all recognize that the jurisdiction that belongs to this department as compared with the jurisdiction of the provinces is very limited indeed. For my part I am not going to expect the minister to work miracles. He, of course has a very real personal knowledge -a lifetime knowledge-of the forest industry himself, and though I do not agree with his politics, I find him an agreeable person. Although I do not expect miracles, I am sure he is going to bring that practical experience to the administration of his department and mix it with the scientific knowledge that already exists and the great

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scientific knowledge that we hope will be developed in the years to come.
I am not going to make a general discourse about the industry. What I rose to do was to speak about two things: One was this fire situation which in the province of Newfoundland-and apparently in some of the other provinces as well because there have been very serious fires in northern Ontario, in Manitoba, and in British Columbia-is serious indeed. We do know that these forest fires do not destroy the timber; at least they do not always destroy it or they do not generally destroy it. We also know that the greatest possible care has to be taken to harvest that timber at the right time after there has been a fire, and sometimes exceptional measures must be taken to do that. I am speaking now particularly of Newfoundland. I admit that this will primarily be a problem for the provincial government and for the two paper companies and the other interests that have title or leases. The situation will vary in each particular case. I plead with the department to give, as I am sure they can and intend to, every possible co-operation to the government of Newfoundland and to the government of any other province that needs it in ensuring that the burnt timber will be harvested at the right time and in the most effective way so that we can minimize to the greatest degree possible this very serious loss that there is going to be in any event. No one in the circumstances we have had in this last little while could have done more than was done.
In this context, sir, perhaps you would permit me to say that I think everyone in the area concerned appreciated enormously the ready co-operation of the armed forces of Canada, of the armed forces of the United States which were most helpful in the area, and also the generous and unsolicited co-operation extended by the government of the province of Quebec, the only province which really has a common boundary with the province of Newfoundland and which has a great deal of effective fire fighting equipment, some of which was made available. As the member for the district in which those fires took place I should like to say that this help from the government of Canada, the government of the United States and the government of Quebec was deeply appreciated by the people and will not be forgotten.
I rose also to say a word or two about the subject mentioned by the hon. member for Inverness-Richmond. He pointed out that in addition to this new mill in Cape Breton there was also developing in Europe a market for pulpwood, and that is true. He appealed to the minister, though, of course, it is not directly this minister's responsibility, to offer

his support to any steps that might be required to provide shipping facilities for that pulpwood. Actually the minister-and I am glad he is in the house and can hear me- who would have to provide those facilities is the Minister of Public Works. But this minister has not the same intimate relationship, either officially or in his past experience of forestry, that the Minister of Forestry has, and I am sure he will be the first to admit it. But there is not any question whatsoever that all over eastern Canada-and I am sure the Minister of Forestry knows this also- there is a great deal of over-mature timber which the pulp and paper companies have not been able to absorb because it was not as conveniently situated or for some other reason, and which should be cut as quickly as possible or it is going not merely to perish itself but do harm to the forest because if over-mature timber is allowed to stand and then to fall I am told it is a much greater prey to disease than is young healthy timber. This is of the utmost importance.
I admit that in the management of those forests the provinces and the companies concerned have the prime responsibility. But particularly in some of the provinces which are anxious to have federal co-operation there is a great deal that a wise federal department can do to help. I thing I can say, although I am not in any way authorized to speak for the provincial authority, that in Newfoundland there will be a ready welcome for any assistance that the minister and his department are able to offer in this respect.
I should like to say also, sir, just as I said to the Minister of Public Works the other day when his estimates were before the house-I think it bears repetition because the point is exactly that which the hon. member for Inverness-Richmond was seeking to make as well-it so happens that a wharf had to be replaced in the northern part of my riding because it had been there for many years and it had rotted away. It was going to cost a very large sum of money. I confess when the project came before me as a member of the previous government I gasped a little at the amount in relation to the size of the place and wondered whether it was really going to return-not to the treasury, because those wharves do not return perhaps very much to the treasury, but to the economy-an amount commensurate with the cost. A wharf was built by the present government at a place called Carman-ville and millions of cords of pulpwood that no one had any idea were going to be cut and shipped over that wharf are being shipped over it to Italy at this very moment and a good price is being received. This is wood

that is surplus to the requirements of either the companies in Newfoundland. It is wood that is mostly over-mature and that would be a dead loss to the Canadian economy if it were not cut. In that whole strait shore area of my constituency it has kept dozens of men and their families off unemployment insurance and off relief in the past winter.
There is another area in my riding called Goose bay, not the Goose Bay in Labrador but Goose bay on the island of Newfoundland, where a similar operation is about to commence. In this particular area around a settlement called Lethbridge, not that more recent place in Alberta which is perhaps somewhat better known but the original Lethbridge, there is a great deal of timber that should also be cut and salvaged before it becomes over-mature. A useful industry can be developed there that will do for that area what has been done by the development at Carmanville, but a wharf somewhere in that bay is going to be needed in order to make it possible to ship that timber economically.
I know this is not the minister's responsibility, but I am suggesting to him that he give his colleague, the Minister of Public Works, a nudge every once in a while to find out whether that minister's engineers are really working hard enough at this project and getting ahead with it. It is for that reason that I rose to speak. I am often labelled in this house as a free trader, but I know that we would all rather have our pulpwood wholly processed in Canada instead of shipping it as pulpwood, but the minister knows and I know that if we have not got the plant to do it and we have over-mature wood for which there is a cash market we are crazy not to take it.
With the great prosperity that has developed in Europe as a result of the common market and with the vastly increased market there, there is a chance for us in eastern Canada to have a good cash crop, such as the wheat crop has been in the past to the west, that will help to tide us over until the time when we can get processing plants in eastern Canada to process all the wood there. The fact that this wood is being produced and that means are being found to produce it and ship it would encourage people to come in there with capital and build processing plants. I suggest that any and every kind of encouragement that the Minister of Forestry gives, both within the cabinet and with the provincial governments of the eastern provinces, particularly the province of Newfoundland, will be very welcome indeed and will, I am sure, bring a great return to the Canadian economy.
Supply-Forestry


Mr. Keays:: May I ask the hon. member a question? Does the province of Newfoundland permit the export of wood cut on crown lands?


John Whitney Pickersgill: It is permitted but under very strict control as, of course, there should be. We do not want young growing timber exported before its time, but in Newfoundland, as I am sure is the case in practically all the other provinces, there is the most rigorous kind of forest management applied, and I would not advocate anything else.


John Smith: Mr. Chairman, my remarks at this time will be rather brief. I should like to extend my congratulations and best wishes to the minister on his assumption of this highly important portfolio. In the Niagara peninsula we do not have any forests and we have very few woodlots. However, we have eight paper mills, some of which are very large, and the supply of pulpwood is most important to us. It comes in by boat and it also comes in by rail.
A great deal has been said today about pulpwood so I will not deal with that matter but I should like to bring to the attention of the minister the scarcity of hardwood which is becoming acute in the province of Ontario. Just recently the seaway authority had reason to purchase substantial quantities of oak timbers and they were just not to be found in this country. As a result, on three occasions large orders for oak timbers had to go to the United States.
I bring to the attention of the minister the need to take action as to this problem. I am thinking in terms of trees such as oak, ash, beech and hickory which used to grow extensively in the province of Ontario but at the present time seem to be almost dying out. There are other kinds of valuable trees such as the sycamore, plane tree, basswood and hard chestnut which are almost things of the past. I feel that attention should be given to trying to bring trees of this type into production again.
I should also like to refer to our shade trees. Too often we see trees planted along city streets and around houses that are just not suitable from the point of view of growing and becoming proper shade trees. When one visits some of the old estates in Ontario one will see beautiful trees growing there of types that are almost extinct in other parts of the country.
In conjunction with the department of lands and forests of the province I believe the minister should give consideration to the three points I have mentioned, the scarcity of hardwood timber in the province of Ontario, the scarcity of special trees such as basswood, chestnut and walnut, which

Supply-Forestry
used to grow in great profusion and are now almost a thing of the past, and the matter of shade trees because they too are not receiving the attention that they should. Varieties that are most suitable for planting are sometimes hard to get.
(Translation):


Azellus Denis: Mr. Chairman, may I congratulate the Minister of Forestry (Mr. Flemming) . No doubt it was because of his great qualities that he was appointed minister immediately after his election to the House of Commons. I should think he has been quite lucky to find a job after losing the one he had in his province of New Brunswick. My only wish is, that Canada's unemployed could find jobs as easily as the Minister of Forestry.
Unfortunately for him, his employment will not last very long, I am afraid, since following the next general election, he will have to be satisfied, if he is not defeated, with being a private member.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: What about Restigouche-Mad-awaska?


Azellus Denis: However, I want to warn the minister that he will experience much difficulty in the discharge of his duties, because about half the amounts the house has to vote for the good administration of his department are related to joint agreements. The minister undoubtedly knows that all the Conservative members of parliament from the province of Quebec have criticized the joint agreements in their province. He is also aware of the fact that those gentlemen have voted in favour of those estimates. Indeed, they are always in favour of them in Ottawa and against them in the province of Quebec. That is their way of gaining popularity and winning elections at all costs.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Could I ask the hon. member a question, Mr. Chairman?


Azellus Denis: Mr. Chairman, I should like to tell the story of the speaker who was asked, during a political meeting, whether he was for or against prohibition. He replied: "Some of my friends are in favour of prohibition, others are against, and I support my friends."
The Conservative members from the province of Quebec adopted the same attitude when they wholeheartedly supported-
(Text):


James Russell Keays: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. member whether he is confusing "timbre" and timber?

(Translation):


Azellus Denis: Mr. Chairman, I want to convince the house that the Minister of Forestry will find it quite difficult to get along with members from Quebec, since they criticize outside this house half the budget that the house is called upon to vote. They used to do it at the time of the Union Nationale. I would like to have the following information from the Minister of Forestry. As I told him, he is intelligent and hard working, so I am sure he will be glad to give us these statistics.
I should like the minister to tell us what amount has been spent by the federal government in all the provinces, under items 153 and 154, since those agreements with the provinces came into effect.
I want the people to know how much money the province of Quebec has lost as a result of that famous attitude held by some people of my province, that joint agreements should be refused because they were presumed to encroach upon provincial autonomy.
I should like the minister to tell us how much this false understanding of automomy cost us. In addition, I should like to know whether, since it came into power, the new Liberal government of the province of Quebec has accepted to participate in joint agreements to get its share of the money spent in Ottawa and which derives from the taxes paid not only by the people of Quebec but by those of the other provinces.
I should like the Minister of Forestry to give us the statistics on joint agreements from the beginning.
I see that last year and in the previous years there was another item concerning joint agreements for the control of bud worms and other insects. I understand the government made payments in this connection to various provinces. At least, I know New Brunswick received some every year, or almost every year, as the Minister of Forestry undoubtedly is aware, since he was the premier of that province. He also knows that New Brunswick forests are next to or very close to those of Quebec.
I should like the minister to tell the house what amounts were paid New Brunswick for insect control, and how much Quebec received from Ottawa in that connection, because in the years past that pest plagued Quebec forests and my impression is that the cost of the air spraying done then was borne exclusively by the private companies and by the province of Quebec.

Therefore, I should appreciate it to learn from the Minister of Forestry what are the amounts received by the province of Quebec through joint agreements on assistance to light disease due to insects or cutworm.
I take this opportunity to wish him once more every success in his department. Like the other speakers who preceded me, I deplore the fact that he did not give French Canadians a fair share of higher positions, especially when the Quebec forest industry ranks among the most important in this country. It would only have been decent and normal to appoint to the higher echelons of that department a few French Canadians or at least Canadians who know and talk French.
(Text) :


Gordon Campbell Chown: Shall vote 152 carry?
(Translation) :


Azellus Denis: Mr. Chairman, I should like, if possible, to get from the officials of the minister the information I asked concerning the amount of money paid under joint agreements under items 153 and 154 as well as the item on assistance to control tree diseases. There is no such item this year but the Department of Forestry is authorized I believe to make arrangements with the various provinces to assist in fighting those diseases.
(Text):


Mr. Flemming (Royal):: I think in a moment or two I would be able to give the hon. gentleman the information which he has just requested concerning the amount of money paid under these various headings to the province of Quebec. However, it will take a few minutes to get it ready.


Azellus Denis: Since the inception of the agreement, not only this year but last year.


Hugh John Flemming: I think we can furnish the information.


Gordon Campbell Chown: Perhaps the committee would like to pass a few items while we are waiting.


Azellus Denis: No.


Gordon Campbell Chown: Shall we stand this item?


Joseph-Alphonse-Anaclet Habel: No.
(Translation):
Mr. Chairman, since the minister is taking a few minutes to find those figures, I
Supply-Forestry
would like to tell him that we were pleased to see the setting up of a department of forestry. Like previous speakers, I hope the minister, who is said to be an expert in that field, will find a means of making an important contribution to the conservation of Canadian forests, which are no doubt one of the main resources we have in Canada.
At this stage, I should like to pay tribute to two paper companies located in my constituency. For several years those companies have been experimenting with reforestation. The Spruce Falls Pulp & Paper Company, for example, has a whole experimentation establishment at Moonbeam; I think the Minister of Forestry would find highly interesting a visit to that establishment which started several years ago and whose results are said to be extraordinary. I should like to mention also the Abitibi Pulp & Paper Company which operates wood limits in my constituency and which also looks after reforestation.
No doubt both firms will be happy to know that the government has decided to set up a department of forestry. However, like the hon. member for Beauce (Mr. Racine), I regret that when a delegation came to meet the minister recently, it was not found possible to raise the amount of the grant to that organization, to enable it to pursue research in reforestation.
I hope the minister will be able to sway his colleagues in the cabinet in order that in a future budget-if the minister is still in office-a favourable reply can be given to the Ontario forestry association.
(Text):


Hugh John Flemming: The information which the hon. gentleman from St. Denis requested is that Quebec is participating in fire protection and in all access road agreements at the present time. It has never asked for or received any money for spruce budworm spraying. Total contributions to all provinces up to now under these general headings mentioned by the hon. gentleman has been $18,801,302. The amount that has been paid to Quebec this year is $464,438.86. The total amount paid for spruce budworm spraying in New Brunswick since inception of that plan, which as the hon. gentleman has stated has been in operation since 1951 I believe, has been $4,224,967 and the payment to British Columbia was $83,927. Speaking in general

Supply-Forestry
terms, the total amount paid for budworm spraying in New Brunswick since that pest made its appearance there has been something of the order of $12 million.


Azellus Denis: Does the amount of $18 million include the two items, No. 153 and No. 154.


Hugh John Flemming: The answer is yes. It also includes the access roads for this year which is something in the order of $4 million.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
153.	Contributions to the provinces for assistance in forest inventory, reforestation and forest fire protection in accordance with agreements entered into by Canada and the provinces, $2,650,000.
William Arnold Peters: How extensive a program is expected to be undertaken in forest inventory by the federal department? A number of years ago a complete inventory was taken in the province of Saskatchewan. This inventory allowed them to decide what they had to do for their forest industry. They can now relate their current inventory to that previous inventory and find what position they are in with relation to it. Is there any intention of doing in that field a complete national inventory by provinces as of 1961?


Hugh John Flemming: The amount to be paid for the sharing of this inventory or the cost of inventory this year is $796,000. That is for the current year.


William Arnold Peters: How extensive an operation is that going to be? When you finish it with one of the provinces, will that be the complete physical inventory of the forest in that province or is this just a continuous thing that we put money into, a partial inventory?


Hugh John Flemming: I am informed that in the initial year something like 1,100,000 square miles was completely inventoried by seven provinces across Canada. Since that time we have continued to participate and the recommendation is that we shall continue to participate to the extent of 50 per cent of the cost, although it may be necessary that an over-all saving be applied since we feel that this is work of such a nature that it should be fairly well continued year after year. May I mention this additional point. I am sure the committee will be interested to know that the establishment of a pulp mill in Nova Scotia, the point raised by the hon. member for Inverness-Richmond was partially at least due to the fact that up to date, almost up to the minute inventory information was available to those people who were interested in establishing that plant at that time.


Azellus Denis: The minister just mentioned the amount of money paid to the province of Quebec by virtue of those joint agreements.

Will he be good enough to tell us in what years those amounts were paid to the province of Quebec.


Hugh John Flemming: The answer is the current fiscal year.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
155. Grant to Canadian forestry association, $20,000.
William Arnold Peters: I believe all Ontario members probably received the letter from the Ontario forestry association in which they point out the terms of reference of the department itself. They ask that the annual grant of $20,000 be increased to $100,000. I will not go into the particulars, but they point out that the Ontario government contributes $10,000. They also point out that their total budget is something over $1 million annually, that the members donate $472,000 and that the federal government contribution at the present time amounts to only 4 per cent of the total. They have requested that this grant be increased to $100,000. Has the minister given consideration to this request from the Ontario forestry association? If so, is there contemplation of supplementing this grant through supplementary estimates?


Hugh John Flemming: In answer to the hon. member for Timiskaming I would say that in the estimates for the fiscal year-not the current one but the next one-the department is giving very careful consideration to the request of the Canadian forestry association. It is not contemplated that there will be any additional item except the $20,000 during the current year.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Forest research branch-
157. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $367,725.
William Arnold Peters: What is the progress with regard to the buildings that we now have and are now assembling for the department? What progress are we making on the location?


Hugh John Flemming: If we had a little bit more time, I think we could get the information as to just where the acquisition is contemplated. I shall be glad to get the information and send it to the hon. member. Oh, I have it now. It comes under various items. I wonder whether I could mail the total to my hon. friend so that he would have all the information about the matter. There is another item. The same thing is listed under another heading. We should be glad to give the information now but it would take time to sort it out.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
The Chairman:: That completes the estimates of the Department of Forestry.
Resolutions adopted in committee of supply this day reported and concurred in.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Azellus Denis: May I ask the leader of the house to be more gentle with me than with some of my colleagues and tell me the business of the house for next week?


Gordon Minto Churchill: A courteous question requires a courteous reply. I am happy to inform the hon. member that on Monday we shall begin with Bill No. C-92 which has to do with the Criminal Code and consider an amendment suggested by the Senate. The second item would be the bill to amend the Excise Act.


Paul Joseph James Martin: The Excise Tax Act.


Gordon Minto Churchill: No. I am addressing my remarks to the hon. member for St. Denis. The Excise Act. The third item would be the bill to amend the Excise Tax Act. The next would be the bill to amend the Customs Tariff followed by the amendment to the Industrial Development Bank Act.
We shall have available on Monday the resolution with regard to the Canadian National Railway finances which, by consent,
1. 19G1	7393
Business of the House
could be considered that day. After that would be the act respecting the civil service of Canada and then Bill No. C-72, an act to amend the Customs Tariff.


Paul Joseph James Martin: What about the Income Tax Act?


Gordon Minto Churchill: I doubt whether we shall be able to reach it on Monday.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Is it clear that on Tuesday we shall definitely take up, as the Minister said on Friday, the Bank of Canada Act?


Gordon Minto Churchill: That is correct. On Tuesday we shall deal with any unfinished items from Monday's order of business, for example, the C.N.R. financing bill if it passes the resolution stage. I presume the Income Tax Act would then become available, so it is obvious now it would be possible to complete the business next week.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I wish to make sure that the Bank of Canada Act will definitely come up on Tuesday. Is that clear?


Gordon Minto Churchill: That is right.
It being five minutes past six o'clock, the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to special order.

Supply-Items Passed
[The following items were passed in committee of supply]:



DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC WORKS

[Stage Direction]
374.	Additional amount for housing research and community planning as contemplated by part V of the National Housing Act, 1954, and to authorize commitments against future years in the amount of $585,900, $1,649,000.
National capital commission-
(formerly under privy council)
375.	Operation and maintenance of parks, parkways and grounds adjoining government buildings at Ottawa and Hull, and general administration, $2,311,240.
376.	Interest charges on outstanding loans that were made for the purpose of acquiring property in the national capital region, $1,400,000.
377.	Payment to the national capital fund, $5,100,000.
Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation-
488.	Advances to Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation for the purposes of subsection (1) of section 37 of the National Housing Act, 1954, in respect of planning the development of corporation owned land, $115,000.
National capital commission-
489.	Loans to the national capital commission in accordance with section 16 of the National Capital Act for the purpose of acquiring property in the national capital region, excluding property being acquired for the purpose of establishing what is commonly referred to as the "Greenbelt", $2,300,000.
490.	Loans to the national capital commission, in the current and subsequent fiscal years, in accordance with section 16 of the National Capital Act for the purpose of acquiring property in that area of the national capital region commonly referred to as the "Greenbelt", $8,000,000.
577. To reimburse Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation for losses sustained by it during the fiscal year 1960-61 as a result of the operation of federal-provincial projects undertaken under section 36 of the National Housing Act, 1954, $253,790.
Loans, investments and advances-
Public Works-
Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation-
601. Advances pursuant to sub-section (4) of section 36 of the National Housing Act, 1954, in
respect of housing and land development projects undertaken jointly with the governmemts of the provinces during the fiscal year 1960-61, $12,500,000.

[Stage Direction]
152.	Departmental administration, $1,090,452.
153.	Contributions to the provinces for assistance in forest inventory, reforestation and forest fire protection in accordance with agreements entered into by Canada and the provinces, $2,650,000.
154.	Contributions to the provinces, pursuant to agreements entered into with the approval of the governor in council, by Canada and the provinces, of amounts equal to one half of the amounts confirmed by the provinces as having been spent by them in establishing forest access roads and trails for the attainment of adequate fire protection as well as other aspects of forest management, $4,170,000.
155.	Grant to Canadian forestry association,
[Stage Direction]
Forest research branch-
156.	Operation and maintenance, $1,949,410.
157. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $367,725.
Forest entomology and pathology branch-
158.	Operation and maintenance including $11,600 for grants in aid of forestry research, $3,258,429.
159. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $773,768.
Forest products research branch-
160.	Operation and maintenance, $1,103,298.
161. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $81,345.
527.	Contribution to the province of New Brunswick for assistance in a program designed to combat the spruce budworm infestation, in accordance with an agreement entered into by Canada and the province, $500,000.
Forest research branch-
528. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment-further amount required, $63,000.
608. Contribution to Nova Scotia, in accordance with such terms and conditions as the governor in council may approve, in respect of a program of forest stand improvement which will provide employment in Cape Breton, $280,000.
[Stage Direction]
Monday, July 3, 1961