1961-03-01

Hon. Donald M. Fleming (Minister of Finance):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to
inform the house that several senior Canadian officials, led by Mr. S. S. Reisman of the Department of Finance, will leave for Hong Kong today to consult with the Hong Kong authorities on various trade matters. The purpose of the consultations will be to consider problems associated with the rapid increase of importations of certain products from Hong Kong.



CONFERENCE TO EXPEDITE MOVEMENT THROUGH PACIFIC COAST PORTS

Hon. Alvin Hamilton (Minister of Agriculture):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to advise the house that I have requested the Canadian wheat board to arrange a conference in Vancouver commencing on Monday next to explore ways and means of expanding the volume of grain which can be moved into and out of Pacific coast ports. The conference will be representative of the principal agencies concerned with the movement of grain from the prairies to the Pacific coast and the movement of this grain to terminal elevators and into ocean vessels.
Invitations have been extended to the following organizations:	Canadian Pacific
Railway, Canadian National Railways, Alberta wheat pool, United Grain Growers Limited, Saskatchewan wheat pool, Pacific group of elevators, Vancouver grain exchange, Vancouver merchants exchange, Vancouver chamber of shipping, shipping federation of British Columbia, trade union representatives, national harbours board, the port warden, the board of grain commissioners for Canada and the Canadian wheat board. It is my intention to attend the conference along with officers of my department.
I want to make the purpose of the conference clear. It is my hope that through the cooperation of the organizations and interests invited, ways and means can be worked out to increase the grain movement through Pacific coast ports. I am hopeful also that those who
attend the conference will join in suggestions relating to long-range developments. I think it is the desire of all concerned that the full potential of the west coast grain movement be realized and that the capacity of west coast ports to receive and load grain is keeping abreast with market opportunities, particularly in the Far East.
The construction of the St. Lawrence seaway and additional storage capacity planned by the national harbours board at Montreal, along with private building in the outer St. Lawrence, have added greatly to the efficiency and the capacity of the St. Lawrence route. A new berth is being constructed at Churchill which will speed up the loading of ocean vessels at that port.
Elevator companies operating at Fort William and Port Arthur have work under way there which will improve the loading of grain and, particularly, the loading of ocean tonnage which comes to the lakehead.
Some years ago additional storage capacity was built at Halifax, and the Atlantic maritime ports are having one of the busiest seasons on record. It is the desire of the government that grain handling facilities at all our ports be brought up to the standards required of them in these times.


Hon. L. B. Pearson (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, I am sure the house will have heard the minister's statement with interest, and will support any steps the government may take to expedite and enlarge shipments of grain through Pacific ports, especially in view of recent reports from such ports that there have been delays in such shipments.


Mr. Harold E. Winch (Vancouver Easi):: We
welcome the statement which has just been made by the minister, Mr. Speaker. We certainly hope that as a result of the conference there will be not only a speed-up in loadings through the port of Vancouver, but there will be also a discussion of the question of installing new and additional facilities. It is many, many years since there have been any extensions to the port of Vancouver. As a matter of fact the facilities of the port are less now than they were as a result of a fire many years ago. The facilities lost then have never been replaced.
In view not only of the recent complaints concerning delay in shiploadings, but also in view of the statements made within the

Starred Questions
past month that Vancouver cannot expect to have new lines coming in until port facilities are expanded, we certainly welcome this announcement. We hope satisfactory conclusions can be arrived at and that speedy action will be taken to implement those conclusions.



STARRED QUESTIONS


Mr. Pickersgill: 1.	Are there any radio and television technicians registered as unplaced applicants with the national employment service?
2.	If so, how many in each category, and in what regions of Canada?


Mr. R. D. Thrasher (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Labour):: Mr. Speaker, the answer to part 1 is as follows. There are no radio and television technicians as such registered with the national employment service. The answer to part 2 is answered by the answer to part 1.


SCHOLARSHIP GRANTS, ELLA ELIZABETH CLARK AND MASON WADE
Mr. Pitman: 1.	Has any federal department, corporation or council awarded any scholarship, grant-in-aid for study or publication, or research grant to an Ella Elizabeth Clark or to a Mason Wade in the past three years?
2.	If so:	(a) which agency, for what specific
purposes, and under what statutory authority or regulation? (b) what is the nationality and address of Miss Clark and Mr. Wade?


Hon. Noel Dorion (Secretary of Stale):: Mr. Speaker, as it will be necessary to circularize a number of departments in order to secure this information, and as this will take some time, may I suggest that this question be made an order for return.


Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, in respect of that question I should add that if the expression "council" therein refers to the Canada council, on the basis of previous experience and precedence that information cannot be procured. I set out these reasons in some detail on November 27, 1957, at page 1558 of Hansard and will not now repeat them.


Mr. Speaker:: The house has heard the proposed limitation with respect to the word "council" as it appears in this question. In making it an order for return as suggested by the minister I assume it will be on those terms.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
Order for return.


NEW HOSPITAL BUILDING, SPRINGHILL, N.S.
Mr. Robichaud: 1.	Has the Minister of Labour received a request from the Springhill miners wives' association for a grant toward the erection of a new 65-bed hospital building?
2.	If so: (a) what decision has the government reached on this matter? (b) has the Minister of Labour made a reply to this request, and what is its nature?


Richard Devere Thrasher: 1.	A letter was received, dated February 6. The letter requested a new post office, armouries and hospital at Springhill.
2.	The federal government, through the Minister of National Health and Welfare, has granted a sum of $178,360 toward a new hospital. This has been expanded by a provincial grant to bring the total of both grants to $445,000. The minister has acknowledged the letter written by the ladies and informed them that all matters that they have raised will receive careful study.


SUGGESTED TARIFF ON OIL IMPORTS, EASTERN CANADA
Mr. Dumas: 1.	Has the government received a communication from the president of the united mine workers, district 26, proposing a tariff of 1 cent per gallon on the importation of foreign oil into eastern Canada?
2.	If so, has the government given any consideration to any such proposal, and what decision has been reached?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, the answer to No. 1 is yes. The answer to No. 2 is that when the government is in a position to announce its policy in this regard, it will be done.


UNEMPLOYMENT ASSISTANCE PAYMENTS
Mr. Martin (Essex East): How many persons are at the present time in receipt of payments under the federal and provincial unemployment assistance arrangements?


Hon. J. W. Monteith (Minister of National Health and Welfare):: Under the terms of the unemployment assistance agreement, provinces may submit claims up to six months after the end of the month to which they relate. As a result the latest month for which complete figures are available is July, 1960. The number of persons assisted in that month was 334,746.



UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE


Mr. Martin (Essex East): 1.	Does the unemployment insurance commission have any record of the number of unemployed persons who have exhausted their unemployment insurance benefits?

2.	If so, how many persons are in this category at the most recent date for which the record exists?


Richard Devere Thrasher: 1.	A count is made, on a sample basis, following the close of each calendar year of the benefit periods exhausted during that year. This does not mean, however, that the persons concerned have necessarily run out of benefit because many of them requalify immediately for either regular or seasonal benefit.
2.	The number of regular benefit periods that exhausted in 1959, the latest year for which figures are available, was 306,000.



CUSTOMS DUTY REMISSIONS

Mr. Benidickson: 1.	What class or kind of goods and what customs tariff classification was applicable, with respect to duty remissions to the undernoted companies reported in the public accounts for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1960: Canadian Fairbanks-Morse Company Limited, Montreal; Dietrich-Collins Equipment Limited, Vancouver; International Harvester Company of Canada Limited, Hamilton; Wm. Stairs, Son & Morrow Limited, Halifax?
2.	Did an agency of the government make recommendations to the cabinet that all other importers of similar goods meeting the same conditions receive a like remission of customs duties?
3.	Under which section of the Customs Act was the original valuation for duty established in each case?


Hon. George C. Nowlan (Minister of National Revenue):: Mr. Speaker, the answer to the first part of this question is rather involved but I think perhaps I can give it now rather than have it printed without being read. The answer is as follows.
Canadian Fairbanks-Morse Company Limited, Montreal; class or kind of goods, electric generators; customs tariff classification, item 445f; value for duty established under section 36 of the Customs Act.
Dietrich-Collins Equipment Limited, Vancouver; class or kind of goods, motor vehicles (trucks); customs tariff classification, item 438a; value for duty established under section 36 of the Customs Act.
International Harvester Company of Canada Limited, Hamilton; class or kind of goods, used production equipment, customs tariff classification, item 442; value for duty established under section 38 of the Customs Act.
Wm. Stairs, Son and Morrow Limited, Halifax, class or kind of goods, power shovel; customs tariff classification, item 427; value for duty established under section 36 of the Customs Act.
The answer to part 2 of the question is no, but had the same circumstances existed in respect of other importers, or were they to arise in future and be made known to the Department of National Revenue, it would
Starred Questions
have been or would be recommended that like remissions be granted to such importers.
The answer to part 3 is answered by the answer to part 1 above.



CANADIAN FREE PORTS

Mr. Mitchell: 1.	Are there any "free ports" now functioning in Canada?
2.	If so: (a) what is the location of each of the said ports? (b) what was the volume of business in each of any such ports in 1960?


George Clyde Nowlan: Mr. Speaker, the answer to part 1 is no and the answer to part 2 is answered by the answer to part 1.



ST. LAWRENCE SEAWAY-PERSONNEL

Mr. McMillan: 1.	What was the total number of employees on the headquarters staff of the St. Lawrence seaway during the year 1960, including engineers, secretaries, etc.?
2.	During the year 1960, what was the number of permanent employees and casual employees employed by (a) the Welland canal section (b) the St. Lawrence river section?


Hon. Leon Balcer (Minister of Transport):: Mr. Speaker, the St. Lawrence seaway authority advise as follows:
In reply to part 1, as at December 31, 1960 there were 182 employees on the headquarters staff of the authority.
With reference to part 2, at December 31, 1960 on the Welland canal section there were 517 permanent and 91 casual employees. On the St. Lawrence river section there were 435 permanent and 45 casual employees.



CENSUS COMMISSIONER, FORT WILLIAM

Mr. Badanai: 1.	Has a census commissioner been appointed for the electoral district of Fort William?
2.	If so, what is the name and address of the person appointed?


Mr. E. L. Morris (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Trade and Commerce):: Mr. Speaker, the answer to part 1 is no and the answer to part 2 is answered by the answer to part 1.



MONTREAL EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE

[Stage Direction]
minister's VISIT
Mr. Lessard: Is the right hon. the Prime Minister in a position to report to the house on the practical results of his visit on February 16 last with the executive committee of the city of Montreal?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I would tell the hon. gentleman that there is nothing to report additional to what has already been placed before the house.

Starred Questions



BOUNDARY BAY AIRPORT, B.C.

Mr. Taylor: 1.	When did the Royal Canadian Air Force cease operations at Boundary Bay, and when did the signal corps assume control of the property?
2.	What was the total cost of buildings, apart from housing units, constructed for the signal corps after the withdrawal of the R.C.A.F.?
3.	What buildings and equipment were specifically constructed for the signal corps and what was the cost of same?
4.	How many houses owned by the federal government are occupied by members of the signal corps?
5.	What is the total value of all buildings constructed for the signal corps?
6.	Has any consideration been given to locating an alternative site for the signal centre? If so, what consideration has been given, and who has been appointed to locate an alternative site?


Mr. Egan Chambers (Parliamentary Secretary to ihe Minister of National Defence):: 1.	July, 1946.
2.	$314,200.
3.
The buildings and equipment specifically constructed for the signal corps and costs involved
are:
Chlorinator building	 $ 1,100
Sewage pump house	 400
Standby generator building	 6,000
Operations building	 295,000
Electrical switch house	 3,500
Sewage pumping station	 3,500
Dyke pump house	 3,500
Petrol, oil and lubricant storage ..	1,200
Antennas	 300,000
Installed signal equipment	 550,000

4.	116.
5.	$1,548,517, including $1,234,317 for housing.
6.	Yes. However, following a detailed survey carried out by army technical personnel, it was concluded that the cost involved in relocating these facilities would not be justified.



BANK OF CANADA SALES TO INVESTMENT ACCOUNT

Mr. Martin (Essex East): 1.	Did the Bank of Canada sell securities in the amount of $40 million to the securities investment account?
2.	If so, was this transaction in the field of monetary policy, or alternatively, in the field of debt management?
3.	Was the government consulted about this transaction?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, for reasons of public policy which I think will be obvious to hon. members, it has never been the practice to disclose individual transactions of purchase or sale in relation to the securities investment account. Only the net change in the aggregate position of the account is recorded from

month to month in the comptroller's statement published in the Canada Gazette.
The securities investment account is used by the Minister of Finance on behalf of the government as a means of employing temporary cash surpluses and assisting in bond refund operations. It therefore falls within the scope of debt management.



HARRY HALLIWELL AND RALPH HEDLIN

Mr. Pickersgill: 1.	Is Harry Halliwell, of the Toronto Telegram, employed by the Department of Agriculture in any capacity?
2.	If so, what are the terms of employment including remuneration, and what duties is he to perform?
3.	Is Ralph Hedlin employed by the Canadian wheat board in any capacity?
4.	If so, what are the terms of his employment including remuneration, and what duties is he expected to perform?
5.	Was Mr. Hedlin employed at the suggestion of the Minister of Agriculture?


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: Mr. Speaker, the answers to the five parts of this question are as follows:
1.	Mr. Halliwell, a graduate in economics of the University of Saskatchewan, formerly an editorial writer and reporter with the Saskatoon Star-Phoenix, reporter, agricultural writer and editorial writer with the Winnipeg Tribune and recently of the Toronto Telegram, is employed under contract by the Department of Agriculture as approved by treasury board and minute 574516 of January 23, 1961.
2.	Mr. Halliwell's period of employment is from February 1 to July 1, 1961. His remuneration is $275 per week. Mr. Halliwell's duties are to study the department's informational activities and to advise on the implementation of an effective program of information to acquaint the public with departmental policies and activities and research findings.
3.	Mr. Ralph Hedlin of Winnipeg is associated with the Canadian wheat board in the field of public information.
4.	It is not the policy of the Canadian wheat board to make public information regarding the remuneration of its employees nor the basis on which they were employed.
5.	Yes. The report of the Bracken commission inquiry into the distribution of railway box cars reported that the public relation activities of the Canadian wheat board had not kept the public as fully informed as desirable with respect to its problems, its efforts to solve them, the complications of its task and the important details of its procedures. Since this observation is applicable to all wheat board operations, and since farmers are entitled to know what is being done by the board on their behalf, the professional

advice of Mr. Hedlin, formerly assistant editor of the Country Guide, formerly editorial writer for the Winnipeg Free Press and now a freelance writer and broadcaster on agricultural matters, was suggested to the wheat board for this purpose.
"agenda 1961"


Mr. Tremblay: 1.	How many copies ol the "Agenda 1961", distributed free of charge by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation to members of the House of Commons, were printed?
2.	How many persons, outside members of the House of Commons, have received a free copy of the said document?
3.	Who printed this agenda, and at what price?
4.	(a) Have tenders been called for the said printing contract? (b) what are the names of the printing firms invited to submit tenders? (c) what was the amount of each tender?
(Translation):


Mr. M. J. A. Lambert (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of National Revenue):: Mr. Speaker, the answer to the first part of that question is as follows:
1.	The Pierre Desmarais printing firm issues an agenda every year. As a tribute to the C.B.C., and to mark the 25th anniversary of the corporation, it decided this year to feature "pictures of the C.B.C." The Pierre Desmarais firm printed its own run plus an extra 1,000 copies which were purchased by the C.B.C., at $1.50 each. These copies do not carry any advertising for the Desmarais firm except for the usual identification of the printer.
2.	The 1,000 copies were distributed free of charge.
3.	The Pierre Desmarais printing firm. The total cost is $1,858.85, handling and mailing costs included.
4.	There was no need to call for tenders since the C.B.C. was using an extra run of a publication that was not its own.
(Text):
"edition speciale"-moderator's travelling



EXPENSES

Mr. Tremblay: 1.	Does the moderator of the program "Edition Speciale", televised on the French network each Sunday night, receive special remuneration for travelling expenses?
2.	If so, what is the amount of such remuneration?
(Translation):


Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert: Mr. Speaker, since the answer to that question would require that the C.B.C. obtain some
Starred Questions
information from its French network, may I ask that the question stand until next week? The same remarks apply to question 170.
(Text):



CKY-FM, WINNIPEG  PROTESTS

Mr. Benidickson: 1.	How many communications have been received by the board of broadcast governors from (a) known T.V. service persons wanting to instal antennas, and (b) other persons, protesting that approval of an application by CKY, Winnipeg, for FM broadcast rights on frequency 103.1 might interfere with reception by viewers in Manitoba from Pembina, North Dakota, T.V. station KCND?
2.	Which frequencies other than 103.1 might be provided under international treaty arrangements or otherwise for assignment by the board of broadcast governors to a Winnipeg area applicant seeking a licence for a frequency modulation station?
3.	(a) Has the board of broadcast governors received any information that a new U.S.A. defence radar station near Baudette, Minnesota, will be utilizing an FM frequency likely to interfere with T.V. reception from channel 7, Winnipeg, to the detriment of Canadian T.V. viewers in the Rainy river district of Ontario? (b) if so, does the board of broadcast governors understand that a decision respecting frequency 103.1 unnecessarily inconsiderate respecting United States T.V. station KCND, North Dakota, would tend to nullify Canadian protests to the U.S. government against the proposed American use of a frequency at Baudette, Minnesota, that would eliminate reception at Rainy river of T.V. programs from a Canadian source?


George Clyde Nowlan: The answer to this question is involved, and I should like to make it an order for return. However, I have not had an opportunity to discuss this with the hon. member who asked the question, so in the meantime I should like to ask that it be allowed to stand.
Question stands.



SOLITARY CONFINEMENT, B.C. PENITENTIARIES

Mr. Howard: 1.	Since January 1, 1956, has any inmate in the British Columbia penitentiary been kept in dissociation for a period of time longer than the normal 21-day maximum?
2.	If so, how many inmates, for what period of time, and for what reason in each case?
3.	Has any of the said inmates been so dissociated on more than one occasion, and, if so, what were the reasons in each case?


Hon. E. D. Fulton (Minister of Justice):: Compilation of the answer to this question will require considerable research and the information will be of considerable length. I have discussed this matter with the hon. member concerned, who has agreed with the suggestion that this be made an order for return, and I so move.


Mr. Speaker:: Then this will be made an order for return.
Order for return.

Motions for Papers



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. Piiman: 1.	Has any federal department, corporation or council awarded any scholarship, grant-in-aid for study or publication, or research grant to an Ella Elizabeth Clark or to a Mason Wade in the past three years?
2.	If so:	(a) which agency, for what specific
purposes, and under what statutory authority or regulation? (b) what is the nationality and address of Miss Clark and Mr. Wade?


SOLITARY CONFINEMENT, B.C. PENITENTIARIES
Mr. Howard: 1.	Since January 1, 1956, has any inmate in the British Columbia penitentiary been kept in dissociation for a period of time longer than the normal 21-day maximum?
2.	If so, how many inmates, for what period of time, and for what reason in each case?
3.	Has any of the said inmates been so dissociated on more than one occasion, and, if so, what were the reasons in each case?



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS


[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 50-Mr. Benidickson:
For copies of orders issued by the Minister of National Revenue since December 1, 1958, under the provisions of section 38 of the Customs Act for the purposes of fixing duties.
George Clyde Nowlan: May this motion stand until I have completed the inquiries to which the hon. member agreed the other day?


Mr. Speaker:: Stand.
Motion stands.



UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE COVERAGE INSTRUCTIONS


[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 61-Mr. Racine:
For a copy of coverage instructions C-411, C-440 to C-444 inclusive, and of any amendments thereto, with regard to employment in forestry, as contained in the new insurance coverage manual issued in October 1955 by the unemployment insurance commission together with the corresponding instructions contained in the insurance coverage manual issued in January 1950.
Hon. Michael Siarr (Minister of Labour):: Mr. Speaker, I object to this motion for the same reasons I put forward with regard to a similar motion on Monday last.


Mr. H. J. Robichaud (Gloucester):: I understand that this decision of the minister is not debatable, and although we regret the decision, in the circumstances, with the permission of the hon. member for Beauce, I would ask that the motion be withdrawn.


Mr. Speaker:: It will have to stand until the hon. member in whose name it appears on the order paper is present to withdraw it.
Motion stands.




[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 62-Mr. Roberge:
For a copy of coverage instructions C-201, C-210 to C-226 inclusive, C-591 to C-595 inclusive, C-614 to C-616 inclusive, and C-822 and of any amendments thereto, with regard to the contract of service, as contained in the new insurance coverage manual issued in October 1955 by the unemployment insurance commission, together with the corresponding instructions contained in the insurance coverage manual issued in January 1950.
Michael Starr: I object to this motion for the same reasons I gave with regard to a similar motion on Monday last.


Mr. Roberge:: Of course I regret the minister's decision, but in the circumstances I ask for the motion to be withdrawn.
Order discharged and motion withdrawn.




[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 63-Mr. Roberge:
For a copy of coverage instructions C-551, C-561 to C-563 inclusive. C-571 to C-576 inclusive, and of any amendments thereto, with regard to family employment, as contained in the new insurance coverage manual issued in October 1955 by the unemployment insurance commission, together with the corresponding instructions contained in the insurance coverage manual issued in January 1950.
Michael Starr: My objection to this motion is based on the same reasons as my previous objection.


Gabriel Roberge: Why not say "ditto"?


Mr. Speaker:: With the consent of the mover the motion is dropped.
Order discharged and motion withdrawn.




[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 64-Mr. Bourgei:
For a copy of coverage instructions C-272, C-321, C-472, C-601 to C-605 inclusive, C-712 to C-717 inclusive, C-830 to C-832 inclusive, and of any amendments thereto, with regard to casual employment, as contained in the new insurance coverage manual issued in October 1955 by the unemployment insurance commission, together with the corresponding instructions contained in the insurance coverage manual issued in January 1950.
Michael Starr: I register the same objection, Mr. Speaker.


Mr. Bourgei:: Like the hon. member for Megantic, I should like to withdraw the motion.


Mr. Speaker:: With the consent of the mover the motion is dropped.
Order discharged and motion withdrawn.



NUCLEAR REACTOR CONSTRUCTION, INDIA

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 65-Mr. Regier:
For a copy of all letters, reports, or other submissions made to the government in connection with the building of such nuclear reactor in India as was made possible by Canadian participation.
Hon. Howard C. Green (Secretary of Stale for External Affairs):: Mr. Speaker, as the correspondence in question appears to relate to a lengthy planning and construction period, spanning some six years in all, perhaps the questioner could be more specific about the particular papers he wishes to have produced in order to facilitate an answer.


Mr. Regier:: Mr. Speaker, may I draw the permission of the house to withdraw the motion in order that I might reword it?


Mr. Speaker:: Yes; since it has not been proposed it may be dropped at the instance of the hon. member for Burnaby-Coquitlam.
Order discharged and motion withdrawn.



FLOOD CONTROL PROJECT, FAIRFORD RIVER, MAN.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 66-Mr. Hellyer (for Mr. Pickersgill):
For a copy of the order in council dated October 28, 1960, authorizing the federal contribution to the flood control project on the Fairford river in Manitoba.
Francis Alvin George Hamilton: I have a copy of the order in council; I should like to table it.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Prime Minister whether he can tell the house before he leaves for overseas the date of the four by-elections in Canada, or of any of them.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate my hon. friend's curiosity. In due time it will be satisfied.


Lester Bowles Pearson: We are anxious to get four more members.



PROVISION OF RAILWAY TIMETABLES FOR MEMBERS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. S. Speakman (Wetaskiwin):: I have a question for the Minister of Transport. Will 90205-6-161
Inquiries of the Ministry the minister ask the Canadian National Railways to supply the House of Commons with railway timetables, as has been the custom in past years?


Léon Balcer: I will be very pleased to do so.



NATIONAL DEFENCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Hazen Argue (Assiniboia):: I should like to direct a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs. Can the minister bring the house up to date on the offer of the United States government of Polaris missiles to NATO? Has this been discussed by the NATO council? Has Canada taken a position in opposition to the Polaris missile?


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, this whole question is under study, and I am not in a position to make any report.


Hazen Robert Argue: Discussed by the NATO council?


Howard Charles Green: I am not free to disclose the discussions that take place among council members. There is unlikely to be an early announcement on this question.


Hazen Robert Argue: Canada has not taken a position yet?


Howard Charles Green: When Canada takes a position in the NATO council that can be announced we will be very glad to indicate it to the house.



CHURCHILL, MAN.    STATEMENT ON LOSS BY FIRE AT ROCKET BASE

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Paul Hellyer (Triniiy):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Defence. Is the minister now in a position to advise the house as to the extent of the fire damage at the rocket launching site near Fort Churchill?


Hon. D. S. Harkness (Minister of National Defence):: I received notice of a question in this regard from the hon. member for Churchill (Mr. Simpson) and I give the following answer.
The buildings seriously damaged in the rocket research facilities were the assembly area, including the garage portion and the test equipment area; the lunch room and the generator room adjacent to the assembly room. The fire travelled along the tunnel and involved the block house. There was minor damage to the launch tower itself owing to the activities of the firefighters.

Inquiries of the Ministry
The equipment destroyed included the technical stores test apparatus in the assembly area, two 60 KVA and two 50 KVA generators in the generator room, and the fire control equipment in the block house.
The buildings and equipment were entirely United States owned. There may have been some Canadian equipment in the lunch room or in the assembly area, and there may also have been some D.R.B. equipment in the block house, but this is not yet known.
A board of inquiry is being convened by the commander at Fort Churchill, with a Canadian officer as president and a United States officer as a member of the board.
The Canadian losses are relatively insignificant in comparison with the total loss, although it is impossible at this time to calculate the amount with any degree of certainty.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: A supplementary question. Can the minister say whether, as a result of the fire, any of the D.R.B. planned programs will be delayed?


Douglas Scott Harkness: Well, Mr. Speaker, I think there is no question but that some of the planned programs will be interfered with and delayed to some extent, yes.


Mr. Frank McGee (York-Scarborough):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of National Health and Welfare. In view of the hue of the hon. member for Trinity (Mr. Hellyer), I wonder whether the minister would be prepared to recommend a Florida tan for all hon. members?


Jay Waldo Monteith: May I say only that I am envious.



PETAWAWA


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mrs. Jean Casselman (Grenville-Dundas):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Defence. Has the minister anything further to report on the continued newspaper comments with respect to the Petawawa yacht club?


Douglas Scott Harkness: Mr. Speaker, in view of allegations with regard to membership fees in the Petawawa yacht club being paid under compulsion, which is contrary to army instructions, it has been decided to send two senior officers from army headquarters and one senior officer from headquarters central command to Petawawa to investigate thoroughly this matter of internal army administration. Brigadier H. E. T. Doucet, deputy adjutant general, and Lieutenant Colonel R. H. Webb 

from the directorate of administration, army headquarters, Ottawa, and Lieutenant Colonel J. F. Merner from central command have been assigned to these duties.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Paul Martin (Essex East):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to address a question to the Prime Minister. Can the Prime Minister tell the house which minister will be in charge of the program having to do with the application of the delayed principle of double depreciation proposed a long time ago by the Minister of Finance to deal with unemployment? Which department of government will deal with this proposal?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I think the information has been furnished on previous occasions. In any event, it is the Department of Labour.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I should like to ask the Minister of Labour a question arising out of the reply given a few moments ago by the Prime Minister. Now that it is clear that the Minister of Labour will be responsible for the program arising out of the proposal for double depreciation to assist in relieving unemployment in Canada, will the minister now announce to the house what are the depressed areas that are to be covered by this program and what are the criteria for a municipality or for an area in order to benefit from this proposal, the only proposal of this kind-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Michael Starr: The answer is "pretty soon".


Paul Joseph James Martin: Two and a half months.



REPORTED WORKING CONDITIONS FOR WAITRESSES

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Frank Howard (Skeena):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Labour. Has his attention been drawn to an article in the Ottawa Journal of February 28 of this year in the column "Below the Hill" by Mr. Tim Burke, which has to do with the working conditions of waitresses in a certain restaurant in Ottawa and which reads in part as follows-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I do not know how the hon. member relates working conditions

in a restaurant in Ottawa to the responsibilities of any minister, unless it happens to be the parliamentary restaurant, in which event the question would be out of order.


Frank Howard: Mr. Speaker, I think it does involve the Department of Labour because unemployment insurance comes under that department.


Mr. Speaker:: Is the hon. member asking a question of the Minister of Labour about uemployment insurance? Perhaps if the hon. member would pose his question we could then deal with it.


Frank Howard: Apparently there were complaints about daily inspections and working conditions and so on, and in the result all the girls were fired. Because of having been fired they are unable to obtain unemployment insurance benefits by reason of the activity of the employer in the first instance. Has the minister's attention been drawn to this matter, and will he undertake an inquiry?


Michael Starr: Mr. Speaker, my attention has not been drawn to this incident. If the hon. member will give me the information I will be very glad to look into it.



INCOME TAX


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Erhart Regier: In the light of the present levels of unemployment and therefore the need to enhance the purchasing power of Canadians, I should like to ask the Minister of National Revenue whether the government is giving consideration to ways and means of speeding up the refunds due Canadians under the provisions of the Income Tax Act.


George Clyde Nowlan: Mr. Speaker, of course this government has always given consideration to all problems which affect the general welfare of the country, and we are doing a remarkably good job in looking after our people.
In so far as any refunds are concerned, if the returns have been properly filed and completed, they go through almost automatically. If there is delay in getting the refunds forwarded, the returns have required further checking. I would appreciate the hon. member, or any other hon. member, bringing to my attention any case where a refund is delayed, and I will make it my personal business to see that the problem is followed through at the earliest possible moment.
90205-6-1614
Inquiries of the Ministry


Erhart Regier: May I ask the minister whether he is aware that refunds are over two months delayed at the present time?


George Clyde Nowlan: I may say, Mr. Speaker, there are refunds which are delayed for a year; the returns have been so inaccurate in the information supplied that it has been impossible to discover what the amount should be. Normally I think it is a matter of three weeks. If there is a longer delay than that there is some fault somewhere, perhaps with an official of the department or possibly in the return, and I should like to have the matter brought to my attention.



HOUSING


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Rodrigue Bourdages (Laval):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Public Works. I should like to ask the minister whether the volume of National Housing Act lending that he announced on February 6 has been maintained to date.


Hon. D. J. Walker (Minister of Public Works):: Mr. Speaker, in reply to the question of the hon. member, during the first eight weeks of 1961, from January 1 to February 24, requests for loans reached the highest level in the history of Canada, except for a corresponding period of eight weeks in 1958.
Activity during the week of February 24, 1961 was extremely buoyant, with 1,205 requests for National Housing Act loans. This brought the total for the first eight weeks of the year to 7,381, compared with 650 in the same period last year. Of the 1961 total, the life insurance and trust and loan companies received 2,921 requests and Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation 4,460.
When these loans become starts, Mr. Speaker, they will offer employment in the first eight weeks alone to 35,000 men; in other words, that number of men will receive employment as a result of this action.


Mr. J. R. Garland (Nipissing):: Mr. Speaker, without in any way dealing with the subject matter, I wonder whether we are to expect these day to day reports on the part of the minister in an attempt to create the impression that all is well in the housing industry.


Some hon. Members:: Question.


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. If the hon. member is rising on a point of order with respect to the reply I could hear him, but I think he should indicate what point of order is involved before making statements.
2542	HOUSE OF
Inquiries of the Ministry


Paul Joseph James Martin: He cannot with this noise, Mr. Speaker.


John Richard Garland: Mr. Speaker, we saw one example yesterday and we see another example today-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Mr. Speaker:: I take it the hon. member for Nipissing is rising to object to something that has just taken place. I do not see that there is a point of order, but if there is one perhaps he would point it out. If he feels there is a breach of our practice in what has been done, he is at liberty to draw attention to it.


John Richard Garland: Mr. Speaker, we also had another example a month ago-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member is rising with respect to something that has just happened in the house, and he should confine his remarks to that matter.


John Richard Garland: Then, Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that housing starts were only up 4.7 per cent in January, which represents approximately 175 starts-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


An hon. Member:: What is the point of order?


John Richard Garland: I have been denied the right to put the point of order. I am directing a question to the minister.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Closure.


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member is now asking a supplementary question.


John Richard Garland: In view of the fact that in the month of January there were only approximately 175 more starts than there were in the same month last year, and in view of the fact that last year was the poorest year for starts in several years, can the minister tell us the number of starts that were made in the month of February?


David James Walker: The figures for the starts, of course, are slower in being obtained and have to be collected from all over Canada. I am giving the facts as we know them in Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation, but if it will help the hon. member I am delighted to say that in the same eight week period the number of loans approved by lenders and the corporation-this means that the builder can start immediately-totalled 6,011 compared with 526 a year ago. The figure for the eight week period this year is probably the largest number of approved loans in the history of Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation in the same period, and there is no reason why the builder cannot start 

immediately once the loan has been approved. Does that answer the hon. member?


John Richard Garland: In answer to the minister, may I say it does not answer the hon. member because an attempt is being made to create the impression that all is well when in fact all is not well.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. Perhaps the hon. member will reserve his comments for the time when the issue can be debated. It is not a matter for debate now.



CRIMINAL CODE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. P. Deschaielels (Maisonneuve-Rose-mont):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Justice. Did the minister have any discussions with the premier of any province last week on the question of an amendment to the Criminal Code to provide for provincial or national lotteries? If so, will the minister comment on those discussions?


Edmund Davie Fulton: Mr. Speaker, a week or so ago I replied to a question regarding this matter, and at that time I said that the matter was under review and when any policy decision by the government had been taken it would be announced in due course. From time to time there are discussions between various ministers and their opposite numbers in the provinces or perhaps other provincial ministers on matters of this kind. Any such discussions would be of an informal and unofficial nature, and I have nothing to report.



ST. LAWRENCE SEAWAY REPORTED INCREASE IN INSURANCE RATES

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Leon Balcer (Minisier of Transport).
Mr. Speaker, with respect to the inquiry by the hon. member for Assiniboia about a report regarding an increase in insurance rates for shipping using the St. Lawrence seaway, I understand that an increase is contemplated but is not solely related to the St. Lawrence seaway. It is for inland navigation as well as navigation on the great lakes.
I should emphasize that these rates are not under the control of the government but are set by the private companies which write the insurance in the light of shipping experience. The only thing we can do is to ensure that in so far as our governmental facilities are concerned we have done everything possible

to avoid the risk of accidents, and this we most certainly have done and will continue to do.
The St. Lawrence seaway authority advises me that while there were 110 vessels involved in accidents within the seaway proper during the 1959 navigation season, there were only 41 vessels involved in accidents in the same area during the 1960 navigation season.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker, with reference to the question asked by the hon. member for Assiniboia concerning a letter from the secretary-treasurer of the employees' local federation of the Canadian National Railways system in Edmonton and the two questions on the same matter by the hon. member for Kenora-Rainy River, may I say that I duly received a copy of the letter and referred it to the management of the Canadian National Railways, who inform me there is not a nationwide lay-off scheduled to take place on March 17, nor is there any large scale lay-off in contemplation. I may say that the hon. member for Edmonton West has also spoken to me about this matter.
The management does point out, however, that the level of the working force of the railway will vary both upward and downward under the influence of seasonal requirements and traffic volume. There are some reductions, approximately 30, being made at various points throughout the mountain region because of lack of work.
With respect to the telegrams received by the hon. member for Kenora-Rainy River, I made inquiries of the management and I am informed that five car helpers at Fort Frances are affected and three labourers at Rainy River.
Both hon. members made some reference to the Maintenance of Railway Operation Act, and I am assured by the management that the provisions of the act have been scrupulously observed.



MONCTON


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. J. Michaud (Kent, N.B.):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Transport. I regret that I did not have time to send him notice of this question, so perhaps he would take it as notice and answer at a later date. Can the minister inform the house
Inquiries of the Ministry whether it is the intention of the Canadian National to cease making major repairs to first class cars in Moncton?


Léon Balcer: I will take this matter up with the management of Canadian National.



UNITED NATIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Paul Theodore Hellyer: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Defence. Following last week's incidents in the Congo, has the minister received from United Nations authorities any report giving assurance with respect to the safety and security of Canadian airmen and soldiers serving there?


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, the concern of the Canadian government has been brought to the attention of the officials of the United Nations.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Has the government made any suggestions that Canadian personnel be not required to travel in small groups in sensitive areas?


Howard Charles Green: No, Mr. Speaker.



INDUSTRY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. D. M. Fisher (Port Arthur):: I should like to ask the Prime Minister whether he has an answer to the question which he took as notice last week, regarding any intercession Premier Frost may have made to him or his government concerning a contract for the Canadian Car Company in connection with the Bobcat vehicle.


John George Diefenbaker: I can only speak for myself, but an examination of my files indicates I received no letter.



CAPE BRETON-REQUEST FOR MEETING OF LABOUR, MANAGEMENT AND GOVERNMENTS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Lester Bowles Pearson: Two weeks ago, and again a week ago, I asked the Prime Minister a question which he said he would answer the next day, whether a request had been made
2544	HOUSE OF
Inquiries of the Ministry for a coal conference by the premier of Nova Scotia, and if so whether such a conference is to be held.


George Clyde Nowlan: With respect to that question, there have been discussions going on among the province of Nova Scotia, the united mine workers and the government of Canada. In a discussion I had with the premier of Nova Scotia when he was attending the dominion-provincial conference, tentative arrangements were made to hold a joint conference in the week of March 20.



UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hazen Robert Argue: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Labour. Can the minister bring the house up to date on the progress being made by the committee inquiring into the possibility of bringing farm labourers under the Unemployment Insurance Act? Has the minister yet received a report?


Michael Starr: As recently as two days ago I made further inquiries as to the progress being made in this area. I am informed that the matter has so many complications, so many difficulties, that the committee is unable to report as yet.


Hazen Robert Argue: Can the minister give the house any idea when a report may be made?


Michael Starr: All I can say is that I have been pressing for this and will continue to press.



COMMONWEALTH CONFERENCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Lester Bowles Pearson: I should like to ask the Prime Minister whether he cares to comment on a report which appeared the day before yesterday in London, England, that at the forthcoming prime ministers' conference the Canadian Prime Minister will propose a commonwealth declaration of basic accepted principles with regard to human dignity.


John George Diefenbaker: I would not want to comment on that. I would simply say, as I have said on many occasions, that while it is difficult to secure a declaration for the commonwealth which would be applicable to all its members, it would be a desirable objective if it


could be attained, that the commonwealth might stand for a certain body of principles. When one comes to consider this question from the point of view of parliamentary government, of fundamental freedoms and such various other phases as readily come to mind, the difficulties connected with any such declaration must be apparent.



BARBITURATES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Romuald Bourque (Outremont-Sl. Jean):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Health and Welfare; I apologize for not sending him notice. The mayor of Montreal, in view of the seriousness of the goof ball problem, has called a meeting for Friday of this week to study ways and means of combating this evil. I understand the federal government has been invited to send a representative. Is it the intention of the minister to send a representative from his department to attend this most important meeting?


Jay Waldo Monteith: As I mentioned in reply to a question by the hon. gentleman some days ago, the department has a committee working on this particular problem. The invitation has not come to my attention as yet.



DOMINION-PROVINCIAL CONFERENCE INQUIRY AS TO TABLE ATTACHED TO PRIME MINISTER'S SPEECH

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Paul Joseph James Martin: I should like to address a question to the Prime Minister based upon the speech he made at the dominion-provincial conference and which is attached to Hansard of yesterday as appendix No. 1. Is it not a fact that in addition to the speech there was a table which is not included with this particular speech? Perhaps if that is so the Prime Minister would be good enough to table it so it could appear as an appendix to today's Hansard.


John George Diefenbaker: There was no table attached to any remarks made by me.



PENSION ACT


Hon. Gordon Churchill (Minister of Veterans Affairs) moved: that the house go into

committee to consider the following resolution, which has been recommended to the house by His Excellency:
That Bill C-67, an act to amend the Pension Act, now before the house, be amended to provide for (a) its coming into force on the first day of March 1961; and (b) certain benefits to dependent parents and to persons deemed to be widows.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Rea in the chair.


The Deputy Chairman:: Shall the resolution carry?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
Resolution reported and concurred in.
Mr. Churchill thereupon moved that the said resolution be referred to the committee of the whole on Bill No. C-67.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
The house in committee on Bill No. C-67 to amend the Pension Act-Mr. Churchill- Mr. Rea in the chair.
On clause 1.
Gordon Minto Churchill: I have just a few brief remarks to make.
First I should like to thank the committee for agreeing so readily to the resolution which was occasioned by the necessity of putting it on the order paper because the amendments which are now about to be proposed, place a financial obligation on the government. The same thing was done in the 1953-54 session when a somewhat similar amending bill was before the house.
It is my intention when we reach sections 5, 8 and 13 to have proposed to the house amendments which incorporate the ideas put forward by the standing committee on veterans affairs. I should like at this point to thank the standing committee on veterans affairs for the careful attention that was given to the bill when it was before that committee, and for bringing forward these-


Charles Edward Rea: Order. I wonder whether the hon. members who are standing behind the curtain would please lower their voices. It is almost impossible to hear the member who has the floor.


Gordon Minto Churchill: I was just at the point of expressing my thanks to the standing committee on veterans affairs for the careful attention they gave to the bill when it was before that committee, and for bringing to our attention matters which require some adjustment.
Pension Act
We have reached the stage in this bill where we are close to concluding our deliberations. We had a lengthy debate as will be recalled at the resolution stage. The bill was up for second reading and was then referred to the standing committee on veterans affairs for a detailed study. It is now back before us for our consideration section by section. The bill appears to have met with general approval and I hope that the house will be able to deal with it expeditiously today. When we have third reading it will be sent to the other place for their consideration.
As I pointed out earlier in respect of this bill, we have attempted to bring up to date certain aspects of pension legislation that required attention. We have to a certain extent met suggestions that have been put before us by the Canadian Legion and other veterans organizations. The main feature of the bill is to increase pension rates for disabled pensioners. This increase averages 20 per cent across the board and will bring the disabled pensioners' pensions more in line with what has always been intended with regard to pensions. These pensions are partial compensation for injuries suffered on the battlefields. It has been the intention of parliament over the years to have pensions correspond to average incomes in various categories in the country. From time to time the pensions have fallen below those averages. We are at this stage by this increase bringing them up to a position which I think is proving acceptable to our pensioners in Canada. I hope that the house will be able to approve this bill this afternoon-


Mr.   Carier@: Mr. Chairman, this bill has already been thoroughly discussed in committee. We know that all hon. members are anxious to expedite this legislation as much as possible. I rise merely to again express support for this bill and to thank the minister for accepting the recommendations of the committee in regard to increasing the benefits to dependent parents in order to bring them in line with the general increase in other benefits contained in this bill. We regret that, since it was necessary to introduce legislation making these benefits retroactive to the first of this month, the government did not see fit to make them retroactive to the first of January. I think it was the feeling of most members of the committee that it would have been more appropriate to make the benefits retroactive to the first of the year since this action had been foreshadowed in the speech from the throne.
The only other regret we have is that the government did not see fit to include a third provision in the new resolution, namely one

Pension Act
to take care of those pensioners who, because they receive war veterans allowance, will not benefit from this legislation. In the committee the minister informed us that there are some 13,000 individuals in this group representing about 9 per cent of all pensioners. Although they will receive an increase in pensions under this legislation, the war veterans allowance they are receiving will automatically be reduced so that there will be no actual benefit. We urge the minister and the government to look further into this problem and to bring forward legislation to correct the position of these pensioners at the earliest possible date.


Mr. Herridge:: Mr. Chairman, the standing committee on veterans affairs held six meetings. One of those meetings was held in the attic of the west block. We did not mind that somewhat unusual situation; in fact we are so greatly interested in this problem that we would meet in the coal cellar if it were necessary. I want to say that there was excellent attendance at these committee meetings on most occasions although there were absences caused by the number of committees meeting at that time. It is most difficult for members to attend these meetings when there are two or three committees sitting at the same time.
At the meetings we heard representations from the Canadian Legion, and the dominion council of war amputations of Canada, the Canadian council of war veterans associations, and we received a written brief submitted by the national council of veterans associations in Canada.
We are pleased that the government saw fit to accept recommendations of the committee in regard to the bill's coming into effect on March 1, regardless of the date it is proclaimed, and the recommendations that certain widows receive the same percentage increase as the general increase in the bill. Like the hon. member who has just spoken we regret that the government did not see fit to make the bill retroactive to January 1, particularly in view of the state of uncertainty that has existed in regard to this legislation for over a year. We also regret that consideration was not given to those pensioners in receipt of war veterans allowance who will not receive any benefit at all through the passage of this legislation.
The representatives from the Canadian Legion expressed general satisfaction with the increase in pensions provided by the bill and suggested some other amendments which we can discuss later.
The Canadian council of war veterans associations suggested that the increase should have been 33J per cent and suggestions were
IMr. Carter.]
made as to amendments to the bill itself. The war veterans association of Canada suggested terms which do not come within the compass of the bill. They urged the government to give consideration to extending the provisions for treatment and disability pensions to members of the allied forces who have become citizens of Canada. They asked the government to accept this responsibility.
The brief of the national council of veterans associations in Canada contained only one recommendation urging that the increase should be 33J per cent.
Hon. members of this group are pleased that the government has accepted the two recommendations unanimously approved by the committee. This will alleviate the fears of a number of veterans that they would lose another advantage in respect of this bill. It will also please dependent mothers and other dependents who should be in receipt of these benefits.
I think that is all I have to say but I will possibly make more comments as the clauses of the bill are brought before the committee.


Mr. Peters:: Mr. Chairman, we are pleased that the minister accepted the amendments which will help to eliminate some of the problems that have existed. I wish, however, to point out the need for hon. members on all sides of the committee to give consideration to urging the government to reinstate the basis upon which the pension was initially granted.
Originally the disability pension was to be approximately equal to the lowest wage rate in the country, namely the wage commanded by the pick and shovel man. Gradually over the years we have lost sight of this ratio. When the various veterans organizations asked for an increase of 33J per cent they were not even asking that the ratio be reinstated to its original premise.
The national council of veterans associations point out how the relationship between the disability pension and the average wage in Canada has altered over the years to the disadvantage of the pensioners.
According to the national council which comprises such organizations as the Hong Kong veterans organization, the average wage rate in Canada in 1939 was $1,220. The basic pension at that time was $900 which represented 74 per cent of the average wage. In 1947 the average wage had increased to $1,800 and the basic pension to $1,128, a decrease in the ratio to 60 per cent. In 1951 the wage rate had increased to $2,480 and the basic pension to $1,500, the pension representing 60.5 per cent of the average wage. In 1957 the average wage had increased to

$3,520 and the basic pension to $1,800, a decrease in the ratio to 51 per cent. Hon. members in all parts of the committee should give consideration to urging the government to return the relationship between the basic pension and the average wage to a more equitable basis.
The government, of course, may increase pensions as it sees fit but I think consideration should be given to the proposition I have advanced especially in view of the fact that today we encourage young people to enlist in the armed services.
I was not present at the last meeting of the committee on veterans affairs but what occurred there tends to dispel the belief that no party politics are played with respect to veterans affairs. Various veterans organizations will read with some interest the discussions which took place in the committee. I was surprised at the extent to which politics entered those discussions. I was amazed that hon. members felt under an obligation to follow the instructions of the government instead of advancing their own ideas and making constructive recommendations. The practice of following the wish of the government in this and other committees should not be followed in the future. Particularly with respect to the committee on veterans affairs it is important that politics should not enter the discussion.
I did not participate in the previous debate with respect to this legislation because I wanted to see what would be the result of the deliberations of the standing committee. I am pleased that to a large extent the minister is ignoring the political implications that have arisen in respect of this bill and has suggested today that he will bring in amendments in keeping with the recommendations of the committee.


Mr. Montgomery:: I had no intention of speaking, but when the hon. member for Timiskaming rises in his place and charges that politics were used in the committee, I say this to him. Let him repeat that charge; let him name the member who brought politics into the committee and let that member answer to him. As far as I know, no politics were introduced into the committee, at least by supporters of the government to whom the hon. member was referring.
I do not want any member of that committee, as a matter of fact, to lie under such a charge because I do not think any of them had the idea of playing politics. Furthermore, I know the minister did not instruct any members of the committee to vote in any particular way. This is another suggestion the hon. member made and one which I must not allow to pass unchallenged. I think the 90205-6-162
Pension Act
committee may have felt that it would like to see this pension dated back to January. Some of the members, no doubt, would like to have seen it dated back a year. But there is, as always, the money problem. Everyone co-operated in that report recommending that it be dated from March 1 and I am surprised that the hon. member should get to his feet and make charges which, I believe, are unfair to the other members who served on that committee.


Mr. Carter:: I rise to make a suggestion before clause 1 is carried. I presume that the bill when it is printed will have the same format as the one in front of us now, and I think it would be helpful to the veterans who may be studying it if, after clause 1, below the words "substituted therefor" we inserted the written direction "See pages 2, 3 and 4." Then, again, I think it would be clearer if, on the opposite side under the explanatory notes, there could be written the words: "See pages 2a, 3a and 4a".
I know that when I began to study this bill it took me a little time to catch on to which schedules were the old ones and which were the new ones, and I think the suggestion I have made would be helpful to many people who will have to pay attention to this act.


James Stanley Speakman: Like the hon. member for Victoria-Carleton, I have a few remarks to make which I had not intended to make. The hon. member for Timiskaming made certain statements; I do not know whether one could call them charges. However, I should like to point out that all of the members of the committee are veterans. In addition, a good many of them are pensioners in receipt of disability pensions and had they voted in favour of extending these provisions back further it could have been said they were voting in their own financial interest.
I should just like to quote a statement which has been made and which appeared in a Canadian Press dispatch of February 20 with reference to the attitude of our friends in the corner and their proposed new political affiliation. It is written by Bill MacDougall of the Canadian Press under the dateline, Niagara Falls, Ontario. The dispatch says that Professor John Morgan of the University of Toronto school of social work was speaking in connection with the proposed formation of the new party. Among his recommendations-


Charles Edward Rea: Perhaps the hon. member would point out to me what relation that dispatch has to the bill now before the committee.

Pension Act


William Arnold Peters: I am greatly interested in something that happened in this house a few weeks ago in relation to this bill, namely the discussion of the clauses required to make the provisions retroactive and the accusations which were made at that time together with the results of those accusations.
I hasten to say that in my remarks I certainly did not accuse either members or the chairman of the committee on veterans affairs of engaging in politics, but politics certainly entered into this matter and I should like to refer to the report of the committee on February 23. At that time there was before the committee a motion moved by two members of the opposition. Here is one of the statements that were made. I do not think we need refer to the hon. member who made it although that could be done if it were desired. The statement is as follows:
May I say this? As long as I have been associated with this committee on veterans affairs this is the first occasion on which political partisanship has come into play.
Then the statement goes on:
I shall be glad to make my statement without political bias. However, it is a fact that members of the government are placed in an awkward position.
Then, after some other statements by another member, the record continues:
I wish to say that I am not speaking against these payments being made retroactive. I am in favour of these increases being made to the veterans pensions. I have worked for them consistently for many months, and I believe that the most expeditious way in having them brought in at the earliest moment is for this committee to support the government in the method which they have chosen to bring in these increases, thereby taking no chances for a further delay in the matter. Our best course is to follow along the lines which have been set by the government.
Another hon. member goes on to say:
We are torn, as it were, between two choices, like a father with two sons. If a recommendation has been made by the cabinet, or by the minister, and apparently it has been, I submit that the government members have no other alternative than to support our government. But on the other hand, we are all veterans: we know how much this means to them, I think that we are being put on the spot.
I suggest that there were political overtones in this statement. In my remarks I did not enter upon a discussion of what those political overtones were. If you still think I am being unfair, Mr. Chairman, I will quote from other sections in the report statements which indicate that many of the members have not yet grown up to the stage where they are able to face their responsibility and make recommendations on the basis of their own opinions. Instead, it is clear they are inclined to prejudge what the government or the cabinet or the minister will do.
[The Deputy Chairman.]
As I said before, I am pleased with the statement which the minister has now made. It is a statement which shows that some members of the committee were prejudging the minister incorrectly, because it appears that the hon. gentleman himself is probably going to make the recommendations as to which the members of the committee should have taken a stand on their own initiative instead of hedging, perhaps in belief that to do otherwise would run counter to their membership in a political party.
I would only point out that these basic requests have been made by organizations to which many of us belong and which most of us support. I have been a member of the Canadian Legion for many years and, speaking for myself, I may say I am one of those who fall into the category mentioned by the last speaker. If this increase becomes effective I will receive an increase in my pension, though it will not be enough to make any difference one way or another. Incidentally, that fact is not to be taken as a reason why I was not at that meeting or as a reason why I would have refused to vote for it.
This is my contention. We should bear in mind the fact that we have an obligation to the veterans to bring their pensions in line with the average wage in the country which they would be entitled to receive if they were in a physical condition enabling them to perform work in that line. Veterans' pensions should bear a fair and just relationship to the average wage in the country. I think we should bear that fact in mind. I am not criticizing anybody and I have not mentioned anybody.
I think we should bear in mind the fact that we should deal with veterans affairs in a non-political way, and hope this will always be the case. The political party to which we belong should not be taken into consideration. We should have consideration only for the larger organization to which we belong, namely the veterans organizations, and the veterans' preference and veterans' status that all members of the committee have attained because of the service they have given to their country should be kept in mind.


[Stage Direction]
Clause agreed to.
Clauses 2 to 4 inclusive agreed to.
On clause 5-Veteran deemed to be married.
Gordon Minto Churchill: On clause 5, Mr. Chairman, I propose to ask the Minister of Labour to move an amendment which clears up a point that has caused a little trouble. This is virtually the same as section 30 (11) (b) of the War Veterans' Allowance Act. It makes

provision for the pension commission to deal with those instances in which there is some doubt concerning the validity of a marriage. Here, in regard to the person who is living for seven years with a pensioner prior to his death, that person may make application to be considered for pension purposes if otherwise qualified. This brings the Pension Act in line with the War Veterans' Allowance Act. The amendment will be read by the Minister of Labour.


Michael Starr: Mr. Chairman, I move, seconded by the Minister of Defence Production, that:
Clause 5 of Bill No. C-67 be amended by deleting the word "subsection" in line 2 of clause 5 and substituting the word "subsections" and adding immediately after subsection (5) which follows the following subsection as subsection (6):
"(6) For the purpose of this act, a woman who
(a)	was residing with a veteran immediately prior to his death and was prohibited from celebrating a marriage with him by reason of a previous marriage either of such veteran or of herself with another person, and
(b)	shows to the satisfaction of the commission that she was, for seven years or more, continuously maintained and publicly represented by such veteran as his wife
shall, where the commission in its discretion so directs, be deemed to be the widow of that deceased veteran."


Chesley William Carter: We are happy to have this amendment. I think it clears up any doubt that might have prevailed as to the status of the common law wife once the veteran is deceased, and on that account we welcome it.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Chairman, I am feeling a bit nervous with a minister in front of me and another former minister behind me breathing down my neck, but I must say that I am pleased, as I am sure are all members of the committee, to see this amendment. As any former member well knows, it clears up a bad situation that has come before the veterans affairs committee on repeated occasions throughout the years because of members having most unfortunate cases brought to their attention. I have in my own constituency one which this amendment will remedy, it will bring justice to the unfortunate woman in question. I am sure the veterans organizations will be pleased. While to some this amendment may seem unimportant because it does not affect a large number of veterans or veterans widows; nevertheless it does affect a certain number. By including this amendment in this measure we are doing something that will bring a great deal of happiness to at least a few homes in Canada after this legislation is passed.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Clause as amended agreed to.
Clauses 6 and 7 agreed to.
90205-6-162J
Pension Act
On clause 8-Discretionary pension to parent in certain cases.
Gordon Minto Churchill: On clause 8, Mr. Chairman, we have an amendment to suggest; it is rather lengthy and somewhat complicated. In substance, what it amounts to is this. The amendment will do two things. It will increase the maximum payable from $480 per year to $576 per year, and it will increase the ceiling from $576 per year to $1,296 per year to the dependent parent where the pensioner has died leaving a pensionable child but there is no widow entitled to the pension.
Section 38, subsection 2 of the Pension Act now reads that the pension to the dependent parent cannot exceed the amount stipulated in the section so long as there is either a child or a widow, either or both of whom are entitled to pension. Under the new legislation the child's pension will not be considered in deciding to pension the dependent parent.
This change adds to the financial obligation of the government, I think, only about $75,000 in a grand total of approximately $30 million that we have been considering, but it will count in part of the resolution that we had to use to precede the study of the bill in committee of the whole house.


Michael Starr: I move, seconded by the Minister for Defence Production, that:
Clause 8 of Bill No. C-67 be amended by deleting subclause (1) of clause 8 and substituting the following subclauses therefor:
"8. (1) Paragraph (a) of subsection (1) of section thirty eight of the said act is repealed and the following substituted therefor:
'(a) the member died without leaving any widow or divorced wife who is entitled to pension or a woman awarded a pension under subsection (4) of section 36, and'
(2) subsection (2) of section 38 of the said act is repealed and the following substituted therefor:
"(2) Where a member of the forces has died leaving a widow or divorced wife who is entitled to a pension or a woman awarded a pension under subsection (4) of section 36, in addition to a parent or a person in the place of a parent who, prior to the enlistment of the member or during his service, was wholly or to a substantial extent maintained by him, the commission in its discretion, may award to each such parent or person a pension not exceeding five hundred and seventy six dollars per annum, or in any case, where, after the death of the member, the pension to the said widow or divorced wife who is entitled to a pension or the woman awarded a pension under subsection (4) of section 36, has been discontinued, may award to any one such parent or person a pension not exceeding the pension that might have been awarded to such parent or person if the member had died without leaving any widow or divorced wife entitled to a pension or woman awarded a pension under subsection (4) or section 36."
Subclause (2) of clause 8 is renumbered as subclause (3).

Pension Act
The Depuiy Chairman: The committee has heard the amendment. Are hon. members ready for the question?


Chesley William Carter: Mr. Chairman, this amendment arises out of a recommendation made in the committee where this problem was discussed very fully, and I do not think it is necessary to enlarge on the matter at this time. We are particularly happy that the amount has been increased from $480 to $576. This means a straight 20 per cent increase which corresponds to the other increases in the legislation.
The figure of $576 is merely a ceiling. What it amounts to is that the discretion of the Canadian pension commission has been increased to that extent but it does not follow that all parents will automatically receive the top figure because I understand there is a means test to be applied in connection with any award made under this statute.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Chairman, the members of this group are pleased that the government and the minister saw fit to accept the unanimous recommendation of the committee with respect to the amendment of this section. Members of all parties noticed this anomaly in the bill we had before us and suggested this amendment. While I am on my feet I should like to say that I am of the opinion that this section is one of certain sections of the Pension Act that it is difficult to administer with a view to bringing the greatest satisfaction possible to the persons who come under its provisions. I have brought to the attention of the commission a number of cases involving persons who were entitled to some assistance under the act. My experience has been that after an assessment of all the circumstances the commissioners have tried in every way they could to administer this section of the Pension Act as fairly as possible.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Clause as amended agreed to.
Clauses 9 to 12 inclusive agreed to.
On clause 13-Commencement of payment of increase.
Gordon Minto Churchill: Clause 13 will be deleted and an amendment substituted which the Minister of Labour will move.


Michael Starr: Mr. Chairman, I move, seconded by the Minister of Defence Production (Mr. O'Hurley):
That clause 13 of Bill C-67 be amended by deleting clause 13 and substituting the following clause therefor:
"13. This act shall be deemed to have come into force on the first day of March, 1961."


William Arnold Peters: Mr. Chairman, on two counts I should like to thank the minister for introducing this amendment. First of all, a precedent may be set whereby some consideration will be given to the fixing of a date in other legislation rather than leaving it open. Second, in my opinion he has allowed a much better examination of this legislation by the opposition than is usually the case. A gun was not held at the heads of members of the opposition in that it was not said that additional discussion would mean that the opposition would be doing something to cause delay in people receiving the benefit of the legislation. I think the veterans organizations that were able to appear before the committee and those that were not able to do so will be quite thankful to the minister for making the legislation retroactive and taking away the threat that if the legislation were held up along the line anywhere somebody would have to pay so far as pension benefits were concerned.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Before the amendment carries I should like to ask a question of some importance to some people. It has been the tradition and practice throughout the years for the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Veterans Affairs to accept as a personal and almost individual responsibility, shall I say, the work of listening to the representations of and looking after what are known as the non-pensioned widows in Canada. Does the present parliamentary secretary intend to carry on that tradition and practice?


Mr. Jones:: Mr. Chairman, I think the duty of the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Veterans Affairs is to do all those things that should be done with regard to any matter coming under the jurisdiction of the minister. Certainly the matters that have been referred to by the hon. member for Kootenay West are among them.
While I am on my feet I should like to pay my tribute at this time to the work done by the committee and particularly to the chairman of the committee, the hon. member for Victoria-Carleton. All through the deliberations of the committee its affairs were conducted in a very able manner. Once again I should like to point out that in connection with pension matters where, as every member knows, the pension commission operates on an independent basis, the remarks of hon. members in the house and in the committee are most helpful. This is in fact the only direct way in which they can make their views known to all the members of the pension commission.
I should also like to mention particularly the contribution made by the hon. member

for Antigonish-Guysborough in connection with the amendment of clause 8. I say to all hon. members of the standing committee and of this committee that their contributions have been most helpful.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Clause as amended agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported.
The Acling Speaker (Mr. Rea): When shall the said bill be read the third time? Now, by leave?
Some hon. Members:: Now.


Gordon Minto Churchill: the third reading of the bill.
Motion agreed to and bill read the third time and passed.



AGRICULTURE


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Wednesday, January 25, consideration in committee of the following resolution-Mr. Hamilton (Qu'-Appelle)-Mr. Rea in the chair:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to authorize the Minister of Agriculture to enter into agreements with provincial governments or agencies thereof for the undertaking jointly with those governments or agencies of projects for the alternative uses of lands that are marginal or of low productivity, projects for the development of income and employment opportunities in rural agricultural areas, and projects for the development and conservation of the soil and water resources of Canada; for the payment to the provinces of contributions in respect of the cost of such projects undertaken by a province or agency thereof; to authorize the Minister of Agriculture to undertake programs of research and investigation in respect of these matters; to provide for the establishment of advisory committees and the appointment of their members, and to provide for other related and incidental matters.
Marginal Lands
level. You may well describe them as twin objectives, namely both cure and prevention. It is well known that prevention is much cheaper than cure.
The minister was of course, quite correct when he pointed out that, primarily, we must direct our attention to alleviating the circumstances of those who are now in difficulty. However, we must not forget the other aspects of the matter to which I referred. Since this resolution was last discussed, Mr. Chairman, it has been considered by others outside of this house. Recently the executive of the Canadian Federation of Agriculture met in Ottawa and presented a brief to the cabinet. I have had an opportunity of reading this brief, as I suppose have other members. On page 10 the federation makes specific reference to this particular resolution. I offer this reference to the committee because it is an opinion that comes from those to whom we may refer as the senior statesmen of agriculture throughout Canada. This opinion is one that certainly cannot be lightly regarded. I quote briefly the comments made by the Canadian Federation of Agriculture:
Broad enabling legislation is being introduced to parliament by the Minister of Agriculture at this session. We welcome this legislation, as you know, since it promises to meet major demands of Canadian Federation of Agriculture policy and important needs of farmers. The government's thinking on this question appears to us to be very much in line with our own. We are anxious to see the program under the proposed agricultural rehabilitation and development act develop strongly and in a well co-ordinated way. It must be administered in a consistent way within the broader concept of optimum use of renewable resources.
Paul Joseph James Martin: Will my hon. friend permit a question?


Mr. Baldwin:: I should be glad to have the questions later, but my time is limited.


Paul Joseph James Martin: At the end of
your speech?


Gerald William Baldwin: When this resolution was last before the committee on January 25, I had made a certain amount of progress in my remarks in connection with it. I should like to repeat now what I said then in support of the minister's viewpoint that this resolution, in effect, has two quite distinct but related and collateral objectives. It seeks to beneficially affect those people engaged in our agriculture industry who, because of the uneconomic size of their unit, the impoverishment of the soil or other reasons, have not been able to achieve the standard of living which we feel should be achieved in this country. In addition, there was also the objective of attempting to make certain that others in the agriculture industry do not come to that


Gerald William Baldwin: At the end of my speech, yes.
I am going to leave to other members of the committee who may want to speak on this resolution the opportunity to deal with what we might term the substantive measures which are referred to in this resolution and which I hope will be carried forward into the legislation. I think this is a case where a close examination of the resolution indicates that there are also great benefits flowing from what might be termed the procedural elements of the resolution. The minister has suggested the way in which we might achieve these desirable results. These suggestions are not entirely new or novel. However, they do constitute a departure as related to the subject of agriculture.

Marginal Lands
When I spoke on this subject previously I mentioned what we could achieve here and compared that with what had been done in the United States in connection with the Tennessee valley authority project. This project was conceived primarily to deal with wasteland in the Tennessee valley but had the related objectives of community development, soil and water conservation and the provision of recreational facilities. It is my hope that when this legislation is introduced its provisions will be wide enough to permit that type of regional planning, particularly with regard to agriculture. I must, of course, relate it to agriculture. This country needs that type of development in many of the areas of what I might call the perimeter of the development. Agriculture in these areas must become more diversified and more sophisticated. We do not want to see the elimination of agriculture or those farmers brought into the cities who are on what we might call the borderline of making a livelihood and who depend on the type of rural redevelopment in that particular region.
My belief is that this scheme could well be applied on the basis of regional and river-basin area development. I refer, of course, to my own district, namely the Peace river area. May I say in passing, sir, that just recently the President of the United States sent to congress a message in the course of which he underlined the fact that the proper maximum development of the national resources, including agriculture, in his country could well be increased by means of proceeding along regional lines. I believe in yesterday's Toronto Globe and Mail I noticed a news item dealing with the report made by a professor A. K. Cairncross of the University of Glasgow who had made an inspection of the Atlantic area and reported to the premiers of those areas. Professor Cairncross stated that, in his opinion, this country had reached a stage where it must seriously consider regional planning.
A great many things are included in that matter, Mr. Chairman, and I believe they fit within the four corners of this resolution. I refer to soil and water conservation, reforestation, the provision of recreational areas, community development, the development of electric power, and so on. In that connection, may I say that I was very greatly interested in reading not long ago that something along this line had been done in Manitoba, not on the basis of regional planning but on the basis of community planning. This was not a case of large sums of money being given to the community by senior governments. The people living in these agricultural communities and in the market towns which

serve them had been helped to help themselves. These people had laid the groundwork, done the planning and persuaded secondary industries to come into the area in order to give them a more diversified way of life. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that this is what we might well do under the terms of this particular resolution and the bill which will follow it.
There is one further feature in connection with regional planning and regional development as applied to agriculture areas. We find that governments now must accumulate unto themselves a large repository of power in order to meet the centralization of industry, the growth and centralization of unions and so on. I believe we all agree that is necessary, but regional planning along the lines I suggest would permit a decentralization of power, a decentralization of the administrative authority. I want to relate that matter particularly to the development of the Tennessee valley district.
There was obtained the consent of seven states and the federal government to yield to some extent a portion of their authority, and to vest that authority in a T.V.A. commission. This commission, vested with this authority from the states and the federal government, was able to provide a type of autonomous authority which was of great benefit to the district concerned. It would be good under legislation of this kind to vest authority in a local autonomy in order to allow the carrying into effect of the plans of a regional authority such as the one I have mentioned, and to allow it to exercise that authority without being forced to return to Ottawa, Edmonton, Victoria or the other provincial capitals.
When I refer to the procedural aspect of this resolution I feel that it offers a fair opportunity for advancement. We are in the stage of our national development in which we are ripe for the benefits which will flow from this resolution. I have related this resolution to my own district, namely the Peace River country, an area which up to the present time has been almost exclusively restricted to agriculture. At this time we are now coming to the stage of secondary industry, with pulp mills, logging, timber mills, the development of natural gas and petroleum resources, and many other improvements in our way of life and the way in which our people are able to earn a living. The difficulty we have faced in the past has been the necessity of going to Victoria, Edmonton and Ottawa for authority, and most of the development which I have described has been seriously hampered and hindered by this type of divided authority.

As I said before, I am realist enough to believe that we will never change the situation so far as the provincial authorities are concerned, so far as the boundaries are concerned; but, through the medium of the agencies which are envisaged by this resolution, I am confident that we can make up much of the ground we have lost. For this reason I am pleased to give my strong support to this resolution. I hope that it will meet with the approval of all members.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, would the hon. member permit a question? In his speech, which I found interesting, he referred to the representations made yesterday by the federation of agriculture regarding this matter. I am sure the hon. gentleman will recall that the federation of agriculture urged the passage of this bill at the earliest possible moment. I believe they urged the passage of this bill at this session. Does the member not think the minister is therefore in error in causing a delay to take place as a result of the proposal that the bill be studied further before it is given final passage in the house this session?


Gerald William Baldwin: I would say this. Judging from the way in which legislation and measures before this house have been held up from time to time, we may well be in Ottawa for some time. Under those circumstances I would suggest that it is probably wise to allow every member from an agricultural area to express a viewpoint at the resolution stage so that when the resolution is translated into legislation the minister will have the advice of all members interested in agriculture, including the hon. member for Essex East.
(Translation):


Hervé J. Michaud: Mr. Chairman, the resolution which the committee of the whole is now discussing relates to the development and rehabilitation of agricultural areas.
When the resolution was introduced on January 25 last, the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Hamilton) stated that 21 per cent of the Canadian farms yield less than $1,200 a year to their operators. As far as the Atlantic provinces are concerned, the picture is much darker still than for the country as a whole. These are, by provinces, the figures quoted by the minister:
Percentage of farms
.	with annual proProvince	duction under $1,200Newfoundland	
78	per	centPrince Edward Island	
26	"	"Nova Scotia	
61	"	"New Brunswick	
59	*[DOT]	<*
Marginal Lands
Today, I should like to deal with that problem more particularly as it relates to the province of New Brunswick.
Mr. Chairman, in order to avoid hasty conclusions on the face of those statistics, it is necessary that the scope of the question be enlarged. Indeed, I believe that the explanations given by the minister until now are much too succinct and do not reflect the issue from all its angles.
The statistics given by the minister are quoted from the 1956 census.
Now, this was the definition of a farm in connection with that census:
Any agricultural unit was considered a farm:
(a)	When the production value was $250 a year; and
(b)	when the acreage was three acres or more, without considering the production value.
Again according to the 1956 census, 24.4 per cent of farms in the province of New Brunswick contained from 1 to 50 acres, and 33.5 per cent from 51 to 100 acres of land.
In the light of those statistics, it is obvious that there is a close connection between income and acreage, and it would seem that if such a large proportion of farms in New Brunswick yield such an insignificant yearly income, the cause would have to be found in their size as well as in the quality of the soil. Yet, I am afraid that the Minister of Agriculture when introducing his resolution on January 25 last, left quite a different impression, namely that the low income from marginal or submarginal land was more particularly due to poor soil. That is an error which should be avoided when planning for the rehabilitation of some submarginal agricultural areas. That is why the first essential step when considering the problem would, to my mind, be a detailed classification of soils, in order to find out which are unsuitable for general farming. While it is important to turn to alternative uses any land which is unsuitable for general farming, all land which could produce food economically should be kept in production in New Brunswick.
When introducing his motion, the minister pointed out that agricultural over-production in our country should be taken into account. I must say that such conditions do not exist in New Brunswick, because, except for potatoes, we have to import from 50 to 75 per cent of all agricultural products we consume. The figures are 10 per cent for butter, 80 per cent

Marginal Lands
for cheese, 60 per cent for pork, 50 per cent for beef, 50 per cent for fowl, 35 per cent for eggs and 75 per cent for vegetables.
Need I say more to show that what is needed in New Brunswick is not a program to reduce agricultural production but rather a program to increase it?
On the occasion of a day of economic studies organized in Moncton by the extension department of St. Joseph's University, in December last, Mr. Camille Chiasson, an agronomist employed by the New Brunswick department of agriculture, dealt quite competently with the agricultural situation in the province. His remarks covered four aspects of the problem. These four points, to which I subscribe, are as follows:
1.	A regional development program. This implies a detailed survey of all resources of an area and requires the co-operation of all elements of the population: chambers of commerce, educators, clergymen, businessmen, professional associations, co-operatives, etc. To those who would claim that this problem is the sole concern of farmers and that they alone are responsible for a solution, I would recall the words of President Eisenhower who said that the minimum farm income of any area is not entirely an agricultural problem, but that it is related to the whole economy and that it can be settled only by the development of all the resources of the area.
The results of such a survey-they will necessarily vary from one area to another- will allow the guiding of agriculture in such or such direction: improving of farming or breeding methods; introduction of new crops and new marketing facilities; establishment of small industries, etc.
2.	The farmer will have to change or at least modernize his ideas. Those who work in our rural areas cannot help notice that the few farmers who succeed are those who have kept pace with conditions and brought in some changes such as an increase of their acreage and their stock, mechanization, specialization, etc. But they are a minority and it is surprising to see the great number of those who are still trying to earn their living on the few acres and the number of livestock which their grandfathers had.
This modernization is no less important in woodlot development. When one thinks of how much waste there is in the exploitation of our forest resources, one is surprised to see there are still some left.

In certain cases, it would be advisable to give back to the forest, marginal or poor lands that should never have been cleared.
3.	Where it is impossible to increase farm acreage, it would probably be possible to turn to special productions such as:
(a)	sheep, hog or poultry farming;
(b)	small fruit or vegetable farming;
(c)	blueberries;
(d)	Christmas trees.
4.	Production and marketing co-operatives. It seems a waste of time to insist on that point, but unfortunately there are too many farmers who are not convinced that there lies their only hope. One should look at what happened in the case of the specialized producers near the larger centers. In spite of the importance of their operations, they have been forced to unite in order to survive. There is no other means to prevent vertical integration.
I should like to point out now that the school would have a great contribution to make to an agricultural development project. Such was the argument of Hon. Adrien Levesque, minister of agriculture in the province of New Brunswick, presented in October last before a group of farmers meeting in Moncton. As a matter of fact, we may wonder to what degree the rural school as it is has delayed agricultural progress.
The fact is that our school system does not predispose the child to love the land and farming. Rather, it prepares our rural youth for life in the cities, not in the country. Not that the rural school should be raised to the level of an agricultural school, but it would only be normal, it seems to me, that without neglecting the teaching of basic subjects it should promote the development of a rural spirit and the knowledge of basic elements; of agriculture, which is totally defective in the present system.
One must say, in all fairness to certain areas of Prince Edward Island and New Brunswick, that certain traditions contribute to underline the agricultural importance of those areas. In those two provinces where potatoes are grown on a large scale, school opens two weeks earlier, that is around mid-August, but they are closed for a corresponding period during harvesting.
Such practice allows school boys to help the industry of the area at the time when labour is more in demand. I must say that where that practice prevails, agriculture is generally more prosperous than elsewhere. Would it be because, among other things,.

young people have been taught the importance of the industry which is the foundation of the regional economy?
In view of its relation to the matter we are now discussing in this house, I should like to quote part of an editorial published in L'Evangeline of October 26, 1960: Agriculture is now at the crossroads. Is society directing it towards an impersonal form of farming, whereby the land, having become the property of limited companies, will be scientifically developed by employees who have nothing to say on the management of the company, employees who most likely will be organized, and who will get a weekly salary like their counterparts in industry?
Must we accept the disappearance of farmers' traditional families, tilling the soil, breeding animals, with the help of their sons who thus prepare themselves to take over?
Agriculture must be reorganized in such a way as to allow farmers to enjoy a better way of life, in keeping with their status as land owners. When farmers once again occupy in society the first rank place which is theirs, it will then be easy to promote agricultural pride.
The day is gone when farmers' sons, anxious to operate a farm with success, could quit school when they were 14 years old. Today, farmers are facing technical problems requiring higher education, wide technical knowledge, and great competence.
The rural school should promote love of the farm through a greater awareness and better appreciation and show the way to prosperous farming through respect for everybody's rights and co-operation of each individual for the common welfare.
Mr. Chairman, it has been proved by now that agriculture must keep abreast of the times. Modern agriculture cannot perpetuate customs and routines passed on from father to son. The farmer has to apply new methods, increase his efficiency, and reduce his costs. Moreover, rational farming requires general regional planning involving the co-operation of all farmers in a spirit free from selfishness, pettiness and envy.
Mr. Chairman, those are the many problems which we have to face in respect of all proposed rural projects, and let us hope that the one we have before us will be the answer to the tremendous responsibilities we have to shoulder. In formulating the terms of this bill, and later on, in seeing to it that they are carried out, the government will have to seek the co-operation of all people of goodwill at all levels of our society. The aim is well worth the effort. The government should also consider the wise recommendations made by the Senate committee with regard to this matter.
I want to conclude my remarks by quoting some of the major recommendations of that committee, which might serve as a guide to everyone concerned. I quote:
Whereas there is a need of elimination of problem areas in Canada where farm businesses are
Marginal Lands
small, productivity low, and incomes inadequate for family requirements: The committee recommends,
(1)	(a) That further research be undertaken to define more clearly the nature of the problem in low income areas and to pinpoint their location.
(b) That a federal-provincial rural development program be instituted to deal with areas of greatest need.
(2)	That in implementing such a program the provincial governments participate on a co-operative basis; such co-operation to include the principle that both provincial and local authorities assume major responsibility for the identification of problems and needs of local areas and the initiation, planning and development of appropriate action programs.
(3)	That the federal and provincial governments co-operate in assisting any such program with financial and technical assistance, said financial assistance to be provided through a cost sharing agreement.
(4)	That the federal and provincial governments provide for a larger farm-management service and expansion of educational facilities with particular emphasis on leadership to ensure a prompt dissemination of the research results to those farmers who will be most benefited therefrom.
This program is comprehensive and will require a great outlay of funds. Nothing less, however, could provide an answer to the basic problem of our agriculture. It is the future of the family farm and of the whole farming community that is at stake.
(Text):


Mr. Murphy:: I should like first of all to congratulate those hon. members who have already taken part in the discussion of this important resolution and I am certainly not excepting, but including, the last speaker who I think made a marvellous contribution to this debate.
This is, I think, one of the most important resolutions to come before us in this present session and I am happy to see the way in which this subject is being approached by members on all sides. The resolution itself is comprehensive and to my mind it is one of the most important to come before parliament since I have been a member. Actually it is in keeping with other progressive legislation introduced by the government this session. I am going to say this. I have been a member of the house for 17 years and I do not recall any other session during which so much progressive legislation has been introduced and passed in such a short period of time.
On reading the resolution one must conclude that it allows a great deal of freewheeling in discussion. There are two aspects of it to which I should like to address myself. You will have noticed, of course, Mr. Chairman, that one aspect of the motion deals with

Marginal Lands
the water resources of Canada and I should like, of course, to deal with that aspect in particular. There are, in fact, so many facets to it, that a member is not really given the opportunity to deal with all of them. I therefore intend to confine myself largely to the subject of the water supply. Then, if I have time in which to do so, I shall deal with the situation in Holland and Denmark with respect to farming, because conditions there are relatively the same as they are in Ontario.
Water pollution is, in itself, a broad subject but certainly it is going to be one of the major problems facing us. It is, I repeat, a problem, and its ultimate solution will be difficult. However, I am happy to note that this fact is being increasingly realized; and as a result of the work which will be done in consequence of the resolution being passed, I think a great deal will be accomplished. Serious attention must be paid to the water problem we face in this country. I say it is an extremely serious problem. I dealt with one aspect of it in an earlier speech and I hope to say more along the same lines today. I must say that the resolution is timely. As we all know, land use has been a matter for concern to the province of Ontario, and the government of that province has made extensive studies through the conservation council of Ontario and other agencies.
In this great era of change, with an accelerating tempo in almost every facet of our daily lives, the present so soon becomes the past that what we now do, and how we do it, must be equated with a critical eye to the future. This is not easy to do and yet so much depends on how well we do it.
The onrush of technological progress bears with it the hope for the future and, at the same time, a deep concern for the potential dangers it holds. While we exploit the one, we need to take extreme care to understand and to minimize the other. We must be sure that our concepts and our practices are attuned to the times and will keep the scales tilted in favour of man, his health and his well-being. From the monthly letter of the Royal Bank of Canada, Vol. 41, No. 4, entitled, "The Relationship of Man and Nature," I should like to quote as follows:
To subdue nature, to bend its forces to our will, has been the acknowledged purpose of mankind since human life began, but the time has come for a revision of our conception of the benefits and responsibilities of holding dominion over all other created things. A new spirit is abroad as scientists and laymen realize that man and the rest of nature are united and individible.
At a time when great elemental forces are clamouring at the bars of our civilization, we need to discard our ideas of 'attacking' the forest, 'bringing under subjection' the mighty rivers, 'con-
quering' the mountains and 'subduing' the prairie. Instead, we need to make the most of all nature as an ally.
Somehow or other the basis of any conservation program must be tied to the continuing economic welfare of the nation regardless of the individual. The use of our soil and water, forest and streams, must eventually be restricted to those who respect and cherish this franchise. The establishment of this principle must be developed and accepted as part of our national attitude just as other rules of conduct are written into our way of life. They protect the individual as they protect the nation. This is very much the case with regard to food and water. Even the presence of water has not always assured man of his food. Abundance often breeds laziness, and the subsequent neglect of water resources can bring stagnation to man and his food production.
I have had the pleasure of attending in this country and in the United States, many meetings on conservation, particularly concerning water pollution which knows no boundaries. Here is a problem area in which we need to break down the barriers of provincialism, the prejudices of proprietary interest, and the varieties of narrow, hereditary points of view, too commonly shared by so many of us. We all recognize that our advancing society needs more water for domestic use and much more water to produce the things we eat, wear and use. To provide adequate water in usable form, when and where needed, and to do this within a reasonable cost, is essential to our way of life.
It is an interesting commentary in this technological era that the availability of adequate water, the world's most plentiful substance, remains an essential key to man's progress. In this country and on this continent our water resources, their use and misuse, are rapidly becoming a prime critically urgent national problem. Beyond satisfying thirst, there is no single water problem but rather a multiplicity of complex problems, issues and questions spanning the technical, political and social fields. In composite these constitute the ingredients that make up public water policy and, in turn, such policy goes to the very heart of our economy.
What we do, for instance, in making available sufficient water determines in a major way the location and prosperity of industry and its supporting populations. For most industries the availability of water is more important even than is the proximity to raw materials or to markets; and the manner in which this water is used affects agriculture, wild life, recreational facilities and the like.

Consideration must be given to the problem so that the ideal habitat of water fowl and wild life will be protected. I am referring to marshes. When we talk about comparative use we must consider the simple mathematics of space.
Another fundamental consideration is the control of water resources. The manner in which this matter is ultimately resolved draws the pattern of land use of great areas of our continent. Among the things to be considered are the impact of water shortages, the complexities of interregional conflicts, the urgency for expanding beneficial uses. All of these demand not necessarily control but attention and action and some degree of co-ordination.
In the North American countries and, of course, elsewhere each of us has a personal and a proprietary interest in how this is done and even more specifically, where and how the authority for doing it is located and administered. To put the water problem in perspective we must first focus on man, his patterns of behaviour and his new-found upsurging technology. May I say this by way of illustration, and this is very important. The great lakes and their connecting rivers are the natural boundary between the United States and Canada for some 1,100 miles, from Duluth to Kingston. The United States population now approaches 180 million, being up 40 per cent in two decades. The metropolitan growth trend will continue. Within two decades, three quarters of this wall to wall population will live in metropolitan centres. We are seeing the development of gigantic metropolitan complexes extending hundreds of miles along superhighways and major waterways. This development also applies to Canada but to a lesser extent. Technological growth is even more fantastic. This statement holds when viewed by any yardstick you might choose, such as gross national product, raw materials, energy requirements, transportation or communications.
In addition to the oil and gas drilling menace to the great lakes, we must realize that the chemical industry and the petrochemical industry are two segments of our economy which are showing phenomenal growth. Synthetic chemicals, plastics, detergents, pesticides, solvents and the like are skyrocketing, not only in quantities but also in diversity. Literally hundreds of new chemicals come into production and use each year. To illustrate, may I point out that these facts, in the field of plastics in the United States in 1940, production was 150 million pounds. Last year it was well over 5 billion pounds. Synthetic detergents increased in 20 years from 15 million pounds to 1.3 billion
Marginal Lands
pounds. For the same period production of synthetic pesticides and other agricultural chemicals increased from 8 million to 540 million pounds. I cite these particular examples because of their impact as potential pollutants on our water resources, and these will have a great effect on the waters of the great lakes. Our production, Mr. Chairman, as you know, is in proportion to the population of the United States.
In the backwash of these tidal waves are growing needs for usable water and greater competition. These factors will tax to the limit our fresh water resources. It is therefore no wonder that, as a resident on lake Huron and as chairman of the Canadian-American committee on water pollution, I am greatly concerned about oil and gas drilling in the great lakes. We all know that the leases are granted by the provincial government of Ontario. Any pollution from this source concerns several of our departments of government, including external affairs, fisheries, public works, transport, national health and welfare, agriculture and northern affairs and national resources; yet we find ourselves handicapped because we cannot take action unless there is extensive pollution.
I should like to take advantage of this opportunity to pay tribute to the international joint commission which has made great strides in co-operation with the Ontario government and the federal government of the United States in studying the problem and recommending measures to abate the pollution.
A few moments ago I gave an illustration with regard to a run-away oil well not too far from the shores of lake Huron, in Michigan, from which, before it was capped, 100,000 barrels of oil were released. It seems unfortunate that we are obliged to wait for something like this to happen before we can do anything. Yet the provincial government continues to grant leases for oil exploration, which might more properly be termed oil exploitation in many cases, in lake Erie where companies operating for 30 years have never paid a dividend.
Under this resolution I must bring to the attention of the committee the fact that the presence of oil in our water in the great lakes would do much to crucify our tourist industry, our bird life and our fishing, and it would be a menace to health since we in western Ontario are no doubt going to have to depend on our water supply from lake Huron, and this factor is certainly going to affect our agricultural production. I have said

Marginal Lands
before that the area from Toronto to Windsor will be depending on water from Georgian bay and lake Huron before 10 or 15 years have passed.
The national anarchy in water pollution policy and control programs must be ended. It is time for the province of Ontario and the federal government to get together and see the problems and work together to correct them. This must, of course, be done in co-operation with the United States. Today the people are pollution conscious and want action. The federal government can do something about pollution from the ships which are using the great lakes, and the Ontario government can reconsider its policy of contributing to pollution in the great lakes by issuing licences to drill on property they have already leased to these exploration or exploitation companies. We find one agency of the provincial government insisting on sewage treatment plants, and the plants we have in the east and have maintained previously are not good enough; and we find another agency of government granting leases for oil and gas drilling to foul the waters of our great lakes system. Let us stop fouling our own most important natural resource.
While I am on this subject and since I have spoken on this matter previously in the house, I should like to say that we have been complaining about this objectionable oil and gas drilling in the great lakes by those companies which maintain, as they have maintained over the years, that there is no danger of spillage with all their modern technology and new equipment. A moment ago I gave an illustration of the spillage of 100,000 barrels of oil from a well before it was capped. What would have happened had the oil well been in a lake?
I am happy to have heard not long ago from the front benches of this government that some consideration is being given by the federal government of the United States and our federal government to a problem which has faced our two countries for many years, namely the habit of vessels on the great lakes using the great lakes to dump their used oil and sewage. The conclusion of the study should not be too long delayed. In fact, it has been delayed for 50 years, a period which is too long. The quicker this problem is solved the better; and it can be solved because we in this country and the people of the United States want that body of fresh water kept fresh in spite of any government action or inaction.
I am now going to refer to something that was brought to the government's attention last fall. The government must take heed of the protests from the east coast of our country against the practice of the atomic energy

commission of the United States in dumping radioactive wastes some few miles off the coast; I do not know how many miles it is. However, I think one of the hon. members from New Brunswick or Nova Scotia raised this question last fall.
I say, Mr. Chairman, that this dumping of radioactive waste offers a new and potentially dangerous pollutant of the nation's water courses. The most serious potential danger to our long range health as far as water pollution is concerned will arise when the radioactive waste dumped at sea by the atomic energy commission starts spreading through the oceans. "Out of sight, out of mind" is not a very satisfactory way in which to handle this problem.
So far, since 1951 the atomic energy commission of the United States has dumped at sea 23,000 steel and concrete barrels filled with radioactive waste, and an A.E.C. spokesman has conceded that these barrels break up in ten years or less. Surely there are other places in the United States, such as rock caves, and so on, where this waste can be dumped until perhaps some years hence there can be a safe disposal system.
I think it is a crime that this practice has been allowed to continue and I am going to suggest to the government that the time for action is now. If these barrels, as has been indicated, will contain this radioactive waste for a period of only ten years or less, this material is then free to flow in the oceans. It is true that the oceans are big but it is also true that there must be plenty of space in the United States, in caverns or other places, where they can store this radioactive waste until the scientists of their country or some other country can determine a safe method of disposal. This nation should not stand idly by and let the United States atomic energy commission dump their continually increasing amount of radioactive waste into the Atlantic ocean or any other ocean.
Previously during this session of parliament I spoke about our sand beaches on the great lakes and referred to their pollution. Sand beaches are important in this or any other country because they afford to hundreds of thousands of youngsters and their parents the opportunity to use these beaches for recreation. Let us not deny them that opportunity in this country.
We in Ontario and people in most parts of Canada are blessed with a great deal of shoreline on the great lakes and on inland lakes and rivers but our population at the moment is only 18 million people or a little better. Consider the situation in the United States. At the moment around metropolitan areas such as Milwaukee, Chicago, Cleveland and

Detroit, none of which is very far from the capital of Canada, existing public ownership on the great lakes provides for only one quarter inch of frontage per person living within 50 miles of the shore. There is not a beach on the great lakes that does not show evidence of oil. For thousands of miles on our side of the great lakes every sand beach and every other kind of beach, according to samples taken last year, showed evidence of used oil. It is no wonder that the minister of energy resources in Ontario is much concerned about the practice of ships dumping their used oil into our great lakes system.
I share with him that view and, as I said a moment ago, I hope that our government in conjunction with the United States government will see that this practice is stopped. As I said, this situation is caused by ships using the great lakes. In co-operation with the government of the United States our government can require ships using the great lakes to have on board containers into which their sewage, garbage and old oil can be dumped for proper disposal at some municipal sewage treatment plant. The people of Ontario have put up with this situation for long enough and the time for action is now. I said before and I say again that where people become pollution conscious, as the people of my constituency in southwestern Ontario have become-and I am sure the same should be true of many more areas in Ontario at least-they are more conscious of pollution than they are of taxes.
When I spoke previously I said that I should like to deal with the application of science to agriculture as found in Denmark and Holland. These two countries are today practising scientific farming more effectively than is any other country in the world. While it is true that the land both in Denmark and Holland is relatively flat and that in many sections the soil is particularly good, there are other areas where the soil is far from satisfactory, so that the average high yield per acre recorded for these two countries cannot be credited to soil or climate.
Holland and Denmark have a high agricultural productivity. Holland has a population of approximately 10 million and Denmark 5 million compared with Ontario's population of approximately 5 million. The climate in both European countries is about the same as that in central and southwestern Ontario so that farming conditions should be somewhat similar in the three countries. For many years I have wondered why the farmers in Ontario did not make the same effective use of new discoveries as industry was making on the North American continent. A study of agricultural conditions in Holland
Marginal Lands
and Denmark shows that farming does not need to lag behind industry as these two countries are adapting the same approach in agriculture that big industry has found so effective. The three main factors that have contributed to the extraordinary accomplishments of Holland and Denmark are:
(1) agricultural education, so effective and extensive that it reaches into every farm home in the country; (2) a large and effective advisory service, adequately supported by research institutes, experimental farms, pilot farms and demonstration fields; (3) an agricultural federation operated by farmers that gives a large measure of support and to an increasing degree guides the research and experimental policy of the two countries.
While the results accomplished are similar in Holland and Denmark, the methods they employ are quite different. In Holland the educational system is similar to that practised in Canada only it is far more intensive, starting with the young farmers and continuing through the training of agricultural scientists. In Denmark the training of the agricultural scientists is the responsibility of the state, but the training of the farm youth, either at boarding schools, folk high schools or agricultural high schools, is the responsibility of the communities these schools serve. While the state makes some contributions to the operation of the 28 agricultural colleges that train some 2,500 pupils, the direction and operation are the responsibility of local boards. In addition, night classes during the winter are attended by some 90,000 pupils.
In both Holland and Denmark practical farm experience is considered to be most important and those wishing to enter agricultural schools or to hold any post of importance must have several years' training on a good farm. As seen from the foregoing, agricultural education is held in high esteem in the two European countries.
In Holland the professors at Wagingen are responsible for teaching and the carrying on of independent research. Research institutes, of which there are about 22, are financed by the state but the direction is by a board of directors composed of farmers, college professors, research officials and government representatives.
The advisory services, which have nothing to do with the research institutes, have their own experimental units in different parts of the country. It is in these units that the more practical aspects of research are developed. In addition, many thousands of farm and field experiments are carried on by the farmers under the direction of the agricultural advisers. All senior agricultural advisers are university graduates. The assistants, of whom

Marginal Lands
there are a great many, are graduates of agricultural schools who in addition have had many years of practical training in the research institutes, advisory service units and experimental farms. Because the advisory services have their own experimental units, those wishing to sell farmers new fertilizer, spray material or farm equipment find it advantageous to obtain first of all the approval of the agricultural adviser before approaching the farmers, though this procedure is not obligatory. In addition to the foregoing, the farmers federation is responsible for all quality control whether seed, fruit, flowers or dairy products. In fact, the federation operates many control laboratories. In addition, they operate several soil testing laboratories and finance and operate the farm economic institute at The Hague which employs over 200 people.
The federation is yearly increasing its contribution to the research program of the country. The farmers sit on all research institutes and advisory service boards, and take a direct interest in quality control, economic and research programs. In Holland, many farmers may see a film depicting an experiment which includes the work evaluation of the farmers, the planting and harvesting of crops, the care of cattle and improved living conditions for the people, all of which can be accomplished by the application of science to rural life.
In Denmark agricultural activities are handled in a unique manner. With the exception of the agricultural college and the research farms, practically every activity is controlled and directed by the farmers federation, not by the state. In the case of the college and the research farms, the farmers make up the majority of the boards of each institute. Agricultural advisers, of which there are over 600 or one to every three or four hundred farms-and by the way, may I say that there are eight to ten times as many in Denmark as there are in Canada -are appointed either by the federation or local farmers' associations. The government contributes only about 25 per cent to the operating cost of these services. There are innumerable plant and animal breeding stations throughout the country and farm and field experiments are numbered in the thousands, practically all operated by farmers under the direct supervision of the agricultural advisers. In contrast to Holland, the Danes train farmers to keep first-class books, so that with a relatively small staff of economists they are able to obtain comprehensive figures on yields and quality of products throughout the country. Neither Holland nor Denmark operate with subsidies, their philosophy being that good cultural practice is better than

state support. In either country, there is no arbitrary control of the farmers but through demonstrations and persuasion they are encouraged to adopt new scientific methods of farming.
In order to illustrate what extensive scientific application has accomplished in Holland and Denmark, may I make the following few observations.
In so far as Holland is concerned, during the last four years there has been a very marked increase in the amount of grass cut for drying, pressing and silaging. A breed of sheep has been developed that averages 1.88 lambs a year. Strains of fruit trees are under government control. Nurseries receive their scions from experimental stations. Practically all new orchards of apples and pears are dwarf trees, as it is claimed that the early bearing makes it more economical than planting normal size trees.
In so far as Denmark is concerned, over 75 per cent of all cows are bred by artificial insemination. There are 22 progeny testing stations where the quantity and quality of milk produced from heifers is determined in order to build up the average milk production. The same type of progeny control is practised with swine and other livestock, so that even though the present average production is at a high level, it is anticipated that this will still increase due to the new methods of improving livestock.


The Chairman:: Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member, but his time has expired.


Joseph Warner Murphy: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. As one of the older members of the house, I should like to pay tribute to the minister for introducing at this time such an important resolution which will have such an effect on our economy.


Mr. Hicks:: Mr. Chairman, I wish to take this opportunity to congratulate the Minister of Agriculture upon the introduction of this resolution and this new approach to agriculture in Canada. I greatly appreciate being given the chance of expressing my views on certain phases of it. I presume this resolution arose partly as a result of the review of the rural development program in the United States which was undertaken at the request of the Senate special committee on land use in Canada. I am well acquainted with the four members of the Department of Agriculture who made this investigation. The senior member was Dr. Booth, an expert in agriculture economics.
I wanted to make a few remarks somewhat along the same lines as those made by the hon. member for Peace River, especially as they related to the stand of the federation

of agriculture on this subject. I received the federation brief yesterday and I read through it rather quickly. I should like to quote from that part of the brief dealing with land and water use and rural development. It reads:
Broad enabling legislation is being introduced to parliament by the Minister of Agriculture at this session. We welcome this legislation, as you know, since it promises to meet major demands of Canadian Federation of Agriculture policy and important needs of farmers.
As a member of the agriculture institute for Canada, I am certain that the resolution will receive the support of this group of scientific agriculturalists. This institute has a membership of 3,065 at the moment. One prominent member of the institute in my province recently wrote to me, and I should like to read a part of his letter:
As an agrologist, I am very much inclined to the opinion that the government is to be commended for developing leadership in respect to land use, especially as it pertains to further increase of forest resources. In the long term, the proposal to utilize lands that are submarginal agriculturally for forest is very worth while. I understand that world requirements for pulp alone are going to overtax present softwood stands within a surprisingly few years. In my opinion, the forest resource is actually an agricultural resource and its further development is absolutely dependent on the application of agricultural techniques.
Recognizing the food surplus situation in respect to North America and the fact that the European mainland anticipates substantial agricultural surpluses within five years, I am satisfied that there is every justification for developing where practicable submarginal lands for the production of softwood for pulp and other timber requirements. In the long term, forestry is an excellent provider of employment. However, I am in no position to say how successful a planning program would be in providing employment over the next 30-50 years.
No branch of agriculture in Canada can remain static. It either goes forward or retrogresses. Never in history has the need for co-operation been greater than at the present time. The task of producing good food economically and of placing it where the thousands of hungry people require it, is one of extreme magnitude. It is suggested that, in so far as land use is concerned, this is a responsibility of the federal and provincial governments. We must embark upon a vast program of economic classification of our land. We must examine the position of agricultural areas in relation to the use of natural resources, land settlement, land productivity, standards of living, opportunities for the uniting of farms and the chances given for employment in other work for those who wish to leave employment on the farms.
The spread between the farmer's cost and his revenue from the sale of his products is serious. In my opinion, land use plays an extremely important role in this connection. The feeding of the poor of the world is not an agricultural problem, in my opinion, and
Marginal Lands
cannot be pinned to the farmer. It is a social issue and can only be treated as such. Personally, I do not feel that the control of production is a serious matter but in some fields this tool should be used. The exception to this statement at the present moment is in regard to wheat and butter. I have made a few inquiries today in connection with butter and I should like to give you some figures in this regard. These figures were supplied by the dominion bureau of statistics.
Butter production per capita in Canada in
1957	was 20.3 pounds, in 1958 it was 19.1 pounds and in 1959 it was 18.1 pounds. From these figures you will notice that there is a gradual decline in the per capita consumption of butter. How do the figures in regard to margarine compare? In 1957 the consumption of margarine per capita was 7.8 pounds, in
1958	it was 8.5 pounds and in 1959 it was 8.7 pounds. You will notice in this case a gradual increase in the consumption.
I have some figures taken from pages 112 to 114 of the Statistical Review of 1959 showing the production of creamery butter and margarine in Canada. These figures run from 23.32 million pounds per year to 28.01 million pounds per year. Incidentally, these figures are for the years 1949 to 1958. The highest production was in 1958, being 28.01 million pounds.
In 1949 the production of margarine was 6.16 million pounds and it has gradually increased over the years until at the end of 1958 we find 12.13 million pounds produced.
I believe that one of the things hurting butter consumption today is fear of heart disease. This fear has been created throughout the country by press reports and in other ways, and even though I am sitting beside a medical adviser I am not convinced that the consumption of butter will do much damage to my heart, at least.
I have just received some figures from the dominion bureau of statistics but I have not had much time to look them over. These figures concern the number of deaths from heart disease in Canada from 1950 to 1959 and show a gradual increase to 48,244. I will give the figures for the years 1950 to 1959. In 1950 the number of deaths from heart disease in Canada was 38,000; in 1951, 39,000; in 1952, 40,000; in 1953, 41,000; in 1954, 41,000; in 1955, 42,000; in 1956, 43,000; in 1957, 45,000; in 1958, 46,000; and in 1959, 48,000.
I admit, of course, that the population of Canada has increased during the same years, a fact which accounts in some degree for the increased number of deaths in Canada per year. Let us look at the percentage of deaths from heart disease during this same period of time. In 1950 the percentage was 31.3; in

Marginal Lands
1951, 31.3; in 1952, 32.2; in 1953, 32.4; then in 1954, it rose to 32.2 per cent; in 1955, 33.5; in 1956, 33.3; in 1957, 32.4; in 1958, 34.0; and in 1959, 34.5.
Let us at this stage consider this situation. It we believe that the consumption of butter in Canada caused this increase in the number of deaths from heart disease, how can we explain the fact that the consumption of butter has been declining? Perhaps the increase in deaths has arisen as a result of the increase in the consumption of margarine in the last ten years.
Agricultural research no doubt increases production in Canada. We have an excellent supply of tools, equipment and personnel with which to do valuable research work in agriculture but surely no one within the sound of my voice would suggest that research in agriculture be curtailed as a method of controlling production. Research efficiency cannot be built up in a short time. This must take considerable time. I believe farmers' inefficiency is a major problem in our agricultural world today, and the resolution before us hits at the heart of this problem. I do not mean to suggest for one moment that we have a group of inefficient farmers in Canada. My suggestion is far from that. Many farmers are situated on poor land and cannot derive a desirable standard of living under these conditions. It has often been said that the public generally should support the unbalance in farming. This statement may be true over a short period of time but as a permanent policy it would be quite wrong. Things are moving fast in these days. The world today is a product of what we believed yesterday, and the world of tomorrow will be a product of what we believe now. If we are to avoid the mistakes of the past we must be prepared to accept our responsibilities in changing agriculture conditions.
There exists in the United States an agency known as the farmers home administration under the supervision of the United States department of agriculture and it provides almost the same assistance to the eligible farmers as the Veterans' Land Act provides. In other words, it provides farm operators with credit and technical assistance. Loans are made only when farmers are unable to obtain suitable credit at reasonable rates of interest from regular sources. This help is particularly suitable to small farms and provides farmers with assistance somewhat similar to that which the V.L.A. has provided in the past.
The Veterans' Land Act includes many features which, on analysis of the small farm problem, I suggest could be given consideration under this present program. Credit is

made available at moderate rates and payments are flexible. Title of the land is held by the department and the farm operator is provided with technical supervision. I feel that what we should envisage is a broad program of rural development.
I should like to quote from a report of the third annual workshop of the Canadian Agriculture Economic Society, 1958 on the small farm problem. This reads as follows:
To implement this program we will need many well qualified supervisors and managers. Happily in the farm finance field we already have a fine organization and developmental nucleus in the competent personnel of the Veterans' Land Act administration. We can build up the necessary resources and we already have the desire to work. What remains to be done and has to be started without any further delay is to speed up an active program.
I see no reason why similar arrangements cannot be made in eastern Canada, which I consider to be that part east of the great lakes. I would suggest that this arrangement could be similar in many respects to the community pasture program under the P.F.R.A. on the prairies.
Let me give you some figures from the 195859 P.F.R.A. reports. Since the inception of this program in 1937, 1,815,265 acres of land have been developed for pasture use. Sixty two pasture projects were in operation in 1958. They handled the equivalent of 117,032 head of cattle. The stock was owned by 5,835 patrons. I claim that this is big business.
A statement by Drummond and McKenzie relating to the royal commission on Canada's economic prospects, of January 1957 points out the drop in the labour force in agriculture. From 1946 to 1955 those engaged in agriculture represented only 30 per cent of the 1946 force. This fact is perhaps due to better wages in industry and the greater use of machinery which allowed lower production costs on farms.
Not likely more than 5 million acres of land can be released for other farm production because of the replacement of the horse by the tractor which has taken place. This figure could increase by a couple more million in 20 years as a result of the same trend.
If a community pasture program takes place in eastern Canada, it will of necessity take place slowly and gradually. It can make better use of marginal lands and will require certain supervision with supervisors having the power to control.
The moving of farm families is a problem where the farm has been held by a family for generations. If farms are to be taken over by the government in order to organize a community pasture the cost of some of the

land will be above its actual value because the owner is selling, in effect, more than the land.
The Gordon royal commission forecasts a population in Canada by 1980 of 26.7 million, or 70 per cent more than the population of 1955. The commission also made the following forecast with respect to the total consumption of major food items, taking 1951-55 as equalling 100 per cent: red meats will increase by 1980 to 214 per cent, an increase of 114 per cent; poultry will increase by 1980 to 218 per cent, an increase of 118 per cent; eggs will increase by 1980 to 231 per cent, an increase of 131 per cent; dairy products will increase by 1980 to 168 per cent, an increase of 68 per cent.
The total amount of grain consumed by livestock in 1954-55 was about 12 million tons. By 1980 it is estimated that there will be a 90 per cent increase in the consumption of grain by livestock.
If a program of tree planting is to take place it should not be delayed. Trees take time to mature for harvest; and I am of the opinion that if a program is to be inaugurated it must take place while there are in the north trees which may be utilized while the new trees are growing.
To sum up, I support this resolution in principle. I am proud to think that this government is providing courageous leadership in developing a land use program which should have the twofold effect of (a) creating increased export markets while (b) adjusting the unbalanced situation in respect to agricultural production. We must all realize, of course, that this program cannot be implemented in a decade but must be carefully planned so that it may be brought to its full development over a period of many, many years.


Mr. Horner (Acadia):: Mr. Chairman, I wish to say a few words with respect to this resolution. As all hon. members are aware, Canada is a country richly endowed with natural resources and with a relatively small population. Canada has a population of approximately 18 million and a total land area of nearly 4 million square miles. Only 1 per cent of this land area is now in farms and one half of that 1 per cent is under cultivation. Actually, not too much of Canada's land surface is under cultivation, yet we must develop our resources to benefit all Canadians. This resolution will bring about a greater intensification of the use of our resources and perhaps also a greater diversification of agriculture generally in Canada.
This resolution proposes to take marginal land out of production and perhaps redirect existing production into the production of
Marginal Lands
other products. The year 1960 was a reasonably good one for agriculture on the prairie provinces with the exception of some local conditions. Some parts of my own constituency suffered from dry weather while other parts enjoyed good weather and achieved record crops. Field crops were good in all the western provinces and wheat production amounted to 490 million bushels with a slight increase in the acreage seeded. Under this resolution it is proposed to redirect acreage, so we must examine what products are grown and consider which can best be redirected.
Wheat production in 1960 was up 19 per cent over that of last year. The acreage was up only 1 per cent while the yield was up 18 per cent, in terms of the number of bushels produced. The yield accounted for most of the increase in production. I point this situation out merely to make it clear that any small amount of land taken out of wheat production will not be enough because the yield makes a big difference in the production and unless the acreage can be reduced by at least 10 per cent no great change in production will come about.
The yield of a particular product is what determines the amount that will be available to place on the market. As I said, in redirecting land out of wheat production I would think we must redirect at least 10 per cent of the land now used for the production of wheat. Approximately 21 million acres are now given over to the production of wheat so there would have to be the redirection of approximately 2 million acres in order to have a substantial effect on production.
In looking over the figures it will be seen that acreage has already been reduced in Alberta by nearly two and a half million acres. Ten years ago Alberta had a wheat acreage of something over 6 million acres. Today it is slightly over 4 million. A reduction of 2 million acres has already occurred in that province with respect to wheat production. This land has been redirected in the production of barley, oats and other more diversified forms of agriculture.
To redirect more land would take a tremendous effort and whether it will be accomplished through this resolution is something that only time will tell. It appears that we must maintain our export position in world wheat trade. Of course, like other hon. members of this house, I am thankful that we have boosted our wheat exports this year through what perhaps might be described as unexpected exports to communist countries.
While our exports to Great Britain and Germany were down in 1959 I hope that the wheat board, now that it comes under the minister's department, will concentrate on regaining the lost sales to those countries and

Marginal Lands
make every effort to maintain our exports in what we consider to be our regular markets and channels.
In looking at some other field crops it will be seen that barley acreage has increased in Alberta but domestic use has increased as well. Our exports of barley last year were 64 million bushels. Approximately 170 million bushels of barley were consumed at home with a carryover of 120 million bushels. We had a total production of about 230 million bushels. The carryover of which I spoke was at the end of the 1959-60 crop year. That carryover would not be described as a surplus. While I do not think there is too much room for a greater acreage seeded to barley, certainly the present acreage could be maintained without creating any undue burden in terms of storage problems.
The same story is applicable with respect to oats. Domestic consumption is up and while we have some oats in storage, they are not surplus amounts.
In examining our imports of agricultural products I could not help but notice that 12 million bushels of corn were imported last year. Corn is grown principally in Ontario and Manitoba. Acreage in Ontario has doubled in the past ten years and nearly 500,000 acres in Ontario were seeded to corn last year. Perhaps this acreage could be increased again in order to produce more corn and cut down our imports of this particular product which surely can be grown in Ontario and Manitoba and, certainly in the irrigated parts of Alberta. Last year we had an exceptionally good year for durum wheat, and a great deal of it was grown. In fact there was an open quota on durum wheat and no doubt we shall see greater acreages next year though production cannot be expanded to any great extent.
Actually, the oilseeds present the greatest hope for expansion, and this resolution could help by speeding up measures of irrigation which would allow for increased production. Production of flax has remained reasonably constant. There was a rise in exports last year and, no doubt, there will be an increase in the acreage set to flax seed this year. Rapeseed is becoming a prominent crop in western Canada, and I think a greater acreage could be put to rapeseed as a result of measures which could perhaps be adopted in consequence of the present motion, namely, greater land use, an intensification of irrigation efforts, and so on. In fact, production of rapeseed was up by 40 per cent last year and, generally speaking, the farmers did well growing this crop in western Canada. Although the average yield declined somewhat compared with previous years I think that

if the government were to take certain steps the acreage under this crop could be increased.
One of those steps would be to specify that rapeseed was a grain, thus allowing it to qualify for shipment at the same rates as those at which other grains are shipped through Canada. This step would reduce the cost of producing this product by something like two cents a pound and would greatly enhance the possibility of its taking over some of the acreage presently set to wheat. Another interesting thing about rapeseed is that only about 5 per cent of the margarine used in Canada contains rapeseed oil. I think that if we could develop domestic markets and lower the freight rate on rapeseed, in addition to creating land more suitable for the raising of this crop, rapeseed could play a more dominant part in our economy, particularly in western Canada. The same comments apply generally to sunflower seed and mustard seed. Production of these two crops could be developed and, perhaps, will be developed to a greater extent now that the new crushing plant has been opened in Lethbridge.
Most of the thought in western Canada in connection with this measure is directed to greater cattle production. Yet our marketings were 11 per cent higher in 1960 than they were in 1959 and our exports of cattle were down by something like 34 per cent. I point this out only to emphasize that while there may be room for a continued expansion of cattle herds in proportion to the expansion of our population, I cannot see the likelihood of their being increased to a point much ahead of the expansion of our population without prices being affected. Though prices remain steady, and even finished on an optimistic note at the end of 1960, I feel there is not much room for greatly increased numbers of cattle. Perhaps our consumption of meat could increase. I think it would increase if some of the chain stores did not feel they had to make such a large profit as they are now making, particularly on beef and pork.
Hog marketings were down last year by 20 per cent from the year before, and if conditions do not change overmuch, prices should remain reasonably steady. However, I do not think there is much room for any great expansion here.
To sum up with regard to the major products of western Canada, wheat is the only product in surplus as to which we should not like to see any increase in acreage. As for rapeseed, durum wheat, sunflower seed, mustard seed and, possibly flax, besides other vegetable crops including potatoes, these products lend themselves well to intensive

agriculture, the use of irrigation and so on, and there may possibly be increases in production.
I do not think the production of butter should be reduced. On the other hand, I think consumption should be increased. It is interesting to note that in Great Britain when they decreased the price of butter they found they immediately had more consumers of butter. They found that after they had decreased the price for a year, when they increased it a little the consumer continued to eat butter. But, first, the price had to be decreased in order to attract consumers away from margarine. So I would suggest we should maintain the small dairy herd. A great many farmers today still buy the food for their tables out of the weekly cream cheque and I do not think we should take any steps that would be likely to reduce this cheque; rather, I think we should increase the consumption of this product.
Business of the House
On looking at the measure more closely-


Charles Edward Rea: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member, but it is six o'clock.
Progress reported.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Mr. Habel:: Could the leader of the house say whether there has been any change in the program announced last night?


Gordon Minto Churchill: There has been no change. Tomorrow we shall commence with the budget resolutions. If that discussion is concluded we shall go on with the estimates of the Department of Agriculture. On Friday we shall take the estimates of the Department of Agriculture.


[Stage Direction]
At six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[Stage Direction]
Thursday, March 2, 1961