1961-05-10

Mr. Reynold Rapp (Humboldt-Melfort) moved: tor leave to introduce Bill No. C-90, to amend the Railway Act (rapeseed freight rates).


Some hon. Members:: Explain.


Reynold Rapp: Mr. Speaker, I am delighted to explain that the purpose of this bill is to apply to rapeseed the freight rates on grain that are applicable under the Crowsnest pass agreement. Primarily, the legislative purpose of this bill is to bring this specific legal meaning of rapeseed into accord with the meaning of rapeseed as used since 1943 by the Department of Agriculture, also the board of grain commissioners, parliament in the Canada Grain Act and the grain trade, as well as by the railways themselves by the present local grain mileage freight rates.
The secondary legislative effects are (1) to apply the Crowsnest pass rates only at the commencement of the August, 1961 season, so there can be no question under section 333 (5) of the Railway Act that the tolls on past shipments of rapeseed are affected retroactively to 1943; (2) to prevent the use of this statutory definition of rapeseed in legal argument on interpretation in other cases.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.


Mr. Speaker:: When shall the said bill be read a second time?


Some hon. Members:: Now.


Mr. Speaker:: Next sitting of this house.


Mr. Pearson:: Why not now?


Mr. Marlin (Essex East):: Mr. Speaker, I think this measure is of sufficient importance to do so now. I do not know why we could not deal with it now.


Mr. Speaker:: I am sorry; the rules do not permit the measure to be advanced more than one stage in one day except by unanimous consent, and the mover has not given his consent.


Reynold Rapp: I do not have a bill.



STARRED QUESTIONS


Mr. Pitman: 1.	Has the Department of Veterans Affairs received any request to have a D.V.A. office opened in Peterborough?
2.	If so, when, and from what source did this request come?
3.	Has any decision been made by the Department of Veterans Affairs?
4.	If so, what has been the decision of the Department of Veterans Affairs?


Mr. H. F. Jones (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Veterans Affairs):: Mr. Speaker, the answers to this question are as follows:
1.	There already is an office of the Department of Veterans Affairs in Peterborough.
2.	On April 12 representatives of the Canadian Legion spoke to the minister.
3 and 4. The request of the Legion concerned the sending of a welfare officer to Peterborough. This matter is under consideration.


SICK MARINERS FUND
Mr. McWilliam: 1.	What is the amount presently in the sick mariners fund, and what was the amount in this fund at the end of December 1957?
2.	How many persons are presently benefiting from this fund, and what was the number that received benefits for the year 1957?


Hon. J. W. Monteith (Minister of National Health and Welfare):: Mr. Speaker, the answer to this question is as follows:
1.	There is no special sick mariners fund. Any payments are made out of a vote in the estimates.
2.	There were 129,934 crew members on vessels paying sick mariners dues in 1957, and 141,743 crew members in 1960. These crews were all eligible for treatment.


AIRPORTS, GLOUCESTER MUNICIPALITY AND BATHURST, N.B.
Mr. Habel: 1.	Has the municipality of Gloucester or the town of Bathurst, made an application for the establishment of an airport in either community?
2.	Has the department decided to construct an airstrip in either of these communities?


Hon. Leon Balcer (Minister of Transport):: Mr. Speaker, the answer to parts 1 and 2 of this question is that the municipality of Gloucester and the town of Bathurst have submitted a joint resolution regarding the

Starred Questions
establishment of an airport in the county of Gloucester, and are being informed of the policy of the department and the terms and conditions under which cost sharing assistance for this purpose might be made available by the federal government.
Should they wish to proceed, this would then be followed by direct discussions with the department regarding this matter.


AIRPORTS, RESTIGOUCHE MUNICIPALITY AND DALHOUSIE, N.B.
Mr. Habel: 1.	Has the municipality of Restigouche or the town of Dalhousie in New Brunswick, made an application to the Department of Transport for the establishment of an airport in either of these communities?
2.	Has the department decided to construct an airstrip in either of these municipalities?


Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker, the answer to parts 1 and 2 of this question is that the county of Restigouche has approached the department to ascertain under what circumstances federal assistance might be provided for purposes of construction of an airport and, having learned of the department's policy with regard to cost sharing grants in this connection, it is understood that the county is now preparing more detailed cost estimates and is investigating the possibilities with a view to further discussion with the department.


SMALL BUSINESSES LOANS
Mr. Racine: 1.	Have the banks, pursuant to subsection (1) of section 19 of the Small Businesses Loans Act, reported on the loans made during the months of January, February, and March, 1961?
2.	If so: (a) what is the number, and the amount of such loans for each of the said months? (b) what is the number, and the amount of such loans for each province?


Hon. Donald M. Fleming (Minister of Finance):: Mr. Speaker, the answer to part 1 of this question is yes. It will be recalled that lendings under the new Small Businesses Loans Act commenced toward the end of January.
The answer to part 2 is as follows:
2(a) January, 7 loans; $49,210.00; February, 82 loans; $444,691.25; March, 211 loans; $1,382,445.70.
(b)	Information not available.
May I add, Mr. Speaker, that any minor difference between the figures I have given in answer to question 2(a) and the answer given on April 26 to question 283 may be explained with reference to a misunderstanding by two of the banks in relation to the return that was asked of them under the pressure of that time to hasten the answer to question 283, and the fact that the figures

returned by three of the banks on that earlier occasion were an estimate rather than the exact figure.
The figures I have given this morning in reply to question 307 are the precise figures.


IMMIGRATION ADVERTISEMENTS ABROAD
Mr. Deschaielefs: For each of the years 1958, 1959, 1960: (a) has the Department of Citizenship and Immigration caused advertisements to be made or published in foreign countries dealing with job opportunities in Canada? (b) if so: (i) in which countries were such advertisements made or published? (ii) what was the list of jobs offered? (iii) what was the cost of such advertisements?


Hon. Ellen L. Fairclough (Minisler of Citizenship and Immigration):: Mr. Speaker, the
answers to this question are as follows:
(a)	Yes, only in 1959 and 1960. There is no record of any advertising of this nature being carried out by the department in 1958.
(b)	(i) In the United Kingdom in 1959 and 1960.
(ii)	Different lists comprising a large number of occupations were used. These are not in a form which can be given orally.
(iii)	In 1959 the amount was $3,123.50; in 1960, $2,754.72.



PUBLIC SERVICE


Mr. MacRae: 1.	How many new employees entered the civil service of Canada in 1960?
2.	How many of these were entitled to veterans preference?
3.	How many employees were discharged from the civil service during 1960 (a) for incompetence (b) for other reasons?


Hon. Noel Dorion (Secretary of State):: The
civil service commission issued 20,056 certificates of appointment during the calendar year 1960, including 1,354 covering student assistants for summer employment. This figure may be slightly in excess of the actual number of new employees, as some may have been certified more than once during the year, but it is the only available figure.
2.	2,069.
3.	During the year 640 persons were dismissed for cause. "Cause" includes incompetence and abandonment of position.



FARM IMPROVEMENT LOANS, FORT WILLIAM,

Mr. Badanai: What is the number of loans, under the Farm Improvement Loans Act, approved in the electoral district of Fort William during each of the years 1945 to 1960 inclusive?


Donald Methuen Fleming: The information is not available.



PORT CREDIT, ONT.    CONSTRUCTION AND OPERATION OF DOCKS

Mr. Hellyer: 1.	What is the cost of construction of docks and related facilities at Port Credit, Ontario, from July 1, 1957, to December 31, 1960?
2.	What has been the cost to the federal government of maintaining and operating the docks and allied facilities at Port Credit, Ontario, from July 1, 1957, to December 31, 1960?
3.	How much cargo was unloaded at the Port Credit docks in each of the three calendar years, 1958, 1959, and 1960?


Hon. D. J. Walker (Minister of Public Works):: 1.	$568,701.84.
2.	$37,825.20. This amount was paid out for "allied facilities at Port Credit" but it was not associated with the main wharf in question. The work was done to maintain the channel to the inner harbour at the mouth of the Credit river.
3.	1958-Nil; 1959-Nil; 1960-6,509 tons of rock salt.
These figures do not include cargo over private wharves.



SALES PROMOTION CONFERENCE, OTTAWA

Mr. Argue: 1.	How many companies sent representatives to the sales promotion conference held in Ottawa last November by the Minister of Trade and Commerce?
2.	What is the name of each company, and the business in which they are engaged?
3.	Are any of these companies (a) American subsidiaries (b) controlled by American companies?
4.	If so: (a) which ones? (b) what is the name of the parent company? (c) what is the extent of the control?
5.	Have any companies not followed through after prospective sales were initiated at the sales promotion conference or afterwards?
6.	If so, which ones?
7.	What sales have taken place as a result of this conference?


Mr. E. L. Morris (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Trade and Commerce):: 1.	1,133.
2.	It is not deemed advisable nor in the public interest to publish this list.
3.	This question relates to internal matters of private companies.
4.	See number 3.
5.	Yes. Approximately 367.
6.	It is not advisable to name these companies. As the Minister of Trade and Commerce has already intimated, he is following up these cases with the hope that further action may be stimulated.
7.	Approximately 52 commodities to 22 different countries largely at this time in the category of trial orders for over $2 million.
Starred Questions



C.N. TELEPHONE SYSTEMS, ATLANTIC PROVINCES

Mr. Batten: 1.	Does the Canadian National Telegraphs operate telephone systems in any areas of (a) Nova Scotia (b) New Brunswick (c) Prince Edward Island?
2.	If so, what are these areas?
3.	What is the population and the number of subscribers served in each area?
4.	What is the total main line mileage in each
system?


Léon Balcer: The management of Canadian National Railways advise that the answer to part 1 is that Canadian National Telegraphs does not operate telephone systems in the provinces mentioned.
Parts 2, 3 and 4 are, therefore, not applicable.



FEDERAL ADVANCES TO UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE COMMISSION

Mr. Caron: 1.	Have any advances been made by the government to the unemployment insurance commission during the fiscal year 1960-61, and since the beginning of the present fiscal year?
2.	If so, what is the amount of each such advance, and the date on which it was made?


Donald Methuen Fleming: The answer to question 1 is yes. The answer to question 2 consists of a long list of dates and amounts. I could read this, but perhaps it would suffice if the information were placed in Hansard without being read.


Mr. Speaker:: It consists of one page?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Yes, Mr. Speaker.


Mr. Speaker:: Has the minister leave to have the figures printed?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
[Editor's note: The table above referred to is as follows:]
2. Fiscal year 1960-61
Date	Amount
April 19, 1960	$ 4,000,000
April 25, 1960	 12,000,000
April 29, 1960	 3,000,000
May 6, 1960	 1,000,000
May 11, 1960	 4,000,000
May 18, 1960	 3,000,000
May 26, 1960	 4,000,000
May 30, 1960	 2,000,000
May 31, 1960	 4,000,000
February 20, 1961	 3,000,000
February 22, 1961	 2,000,000
February 23, 1961	 2,000,000
February 24, 1961	 3,000,000
February 27, 1961	 4,000,000
February 28, 1961	 4,500,000
March 2, 1961	 3,000,000

Starred Questions Fiscal year 1960-61-con.
Date
Amount
March 3, 1961	$
March 6, 1961	
March 7, 1961	
March 8, 1961	
March 9, 1961	
March 10, 1961	
March 13, 1961	
March 14, 1961	
March 20, 1961	
March 21, 1961	
March 23, 1961	
March 24, 1961	
March 27, 1961	
March 28, 1961	
March 29, 1961	
March 30, 1961	
2,000,000
3.000.	000
1.000.	000 2,000,000
3.000.	000
3.000.	000
3.000.	000
3.000.	000
4.000.	000
1.000.	000
3.000.	000
3.000.	000
3.000.	000
3.000.	000
4.000.	000 4,500,000
Fiscal year 1961-62 (To May 8, 1961)
April 4, 1961 . . April 5, 1961 . . April 6, 1961 .. April 7, 1961 . April 10, 1961 . April 11, 1961 . April 12, 1961 . April 13, 1961 . April 14, 1961 April 19, 1961 April 21, 1961 April 25, 1961 April 26, 1961 April 27, 1961 April 28, 1961 . May 1, 1961 . May 2, 1961 ... May 3, 1961 ... May 4, 1961 .. May 5, 1961 .. May 8, 1961 . .

3.000.	000
3.000.	000
1.000.	000
3.000.	000
3.000.	000
3.000.	000
3.000.	000
3.000.	000
2.000.	000
1.500.000
3.000.	000
2.000.	000
4.000.	000
3.500.000
2.000.	000 1,000,000
2.500.000 2,000,000 2,000,000 1,000,000



INTERNATIONAL AIR ROUTES-C.P.A. APPLICATIONS

Mr. Ralelle: 1.	Did Canadian Pacific Airlines apply to the air transport board or to the government for permission to fly a new international route or routes, or to add to its present routes the right to stop over in certain countries?
2.	What were these routes with stopovers?
3.	Have these applications been heard; and, if so, (a) by whom (b) what decision has been rendered?
4.	Is Canadian Pacific Airlines authorized, under its bilateral air agreements or otherwise, to carry local traffic between two points in a foreign country or between several points in one foreign country to one or more points in another foreign country; and, if so, list the points?


Léon Balcer: 1.	Yes.
2.	Canadian Pacific Airlines has applied for the following international routes-

(a) Western Canada-(Vancouver-Edmon-ton)-London.
fb)	(Toronto-Montreal)-London	(using
propeller-driven aircraft only).
3.	(a) This application has been heard by a special cabinet committee, and (b) no decision has yet been rendered.
4.	No Canadian air line is permitted under any bilateral air agreement to carry local traffic between two points in a foreign country. In operating its overseas service, Canadian Pacific Airlines is authorized to carry traffic between the following points in foreign countries:
Mexico City-Lima (Peru)
Lima-Santiago (Chile)
Santiago-Buenos Aires (Argentina)
Tokyo-Hong Kong
Honolulu-Fiji-Auckland (New Zealand)-Sydney (Australia)
Azores-Lisbon-Rome



TRANSCONTINENTAL AIR ROUTES


Mr. Ralelle: 1.	Did Canadian Pacific Airlines apply to the air transport board or to the government for permission to fly a new transcontinental route or routes, or to add to its present routes, the right to stop over?
2.	What were these routes with stopovers?
3.	Have these applications been heard; and, if so, (a) by whom (b) what decision has been rendered?


Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker, the answer to this question is as follows:
With respect to part 1, Canadian Pacific Airlines has not applied to the air transport board for new transcontinental routes but has made general representations to the government based on a sharing of future main line traffic growth in Canada.
With respect to part 2, no specific routes or additional points have been applied for.
With respect to part 3 (a), no formal application has been heard, and (b), no decision has been rendered.



AUTAIR HELICOPTER SERVICES-AIRCRAFT EQUIPMENT

Mr. Chevrier: 1.	Do the regulations of the air transport board require an operator to file a statement of the aircraft equipment in its possession?
2.	Did Autair Helicopter Services Limited file such a statement, and on what date?
3.	What equipment did it have in its possession on that date?


Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker, the answer to this question is as follows:
1.	Yes. A fleet report, listing all aircraft in its possession is filed by each carrier for

four specified days a year; January 15, April 15, July 15 and October 15.
2.	Yes, for the last specified date, April 15.
3.	15 aircraft, as follows:
Type of aircraft Number Status in fleet
Bell 476	3	OwnedBell 476-2	7	OwnedBell 476-2A	2	OwnedSikorsky S-55	3	OwnedAUTAIR HELICOPTER	SERVICES-	-FINANCIAL



STATEMENTS

Mr. Chevrier: 1.	Do the regulations of the air transport board require an operator to file a financial statement either quarterly, semi-annually, or yearly?
2.	Did Autair Helicopter Services Limited file such a statement for the years 1959, 1960, and 1961?
3.	Does the air transport board conduct an investigation from time to time into the affairs of licensed carriers?
4.	Has it done so in the case of Autair Helicopter Services Limited, and on what date?


Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker, the answer to this question is as follows:
1.	All authorized licencees are required to file financial data on an annual basis and throughout the year either monthly or quarterly as defined by regulations.
2.	1959-yes.
1960-	monthly filed, annual outstanding.
1961-	monthly filed for January and February.
3.	Yes. Periodic audit of carrier's books.
4.	Yes. Last audit survey in February 1961.



AUTAIR HELICOPTER SERVICES


Mr. Chevrier: 1.	Did Autair Helicopter Services Limited apply to the air transport board for permission to lease certain equipment outside Canada?
2.	If so: (a) on what date? (b) what equipment?


Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker, the answer to this question is as follows:
The answer to part 1 is yes, on a dry lease basis.
With respect to part 2 (a) the date was April 3, 1961, and (b), the equipment was two S-55 helicopters.



DISCRIMINATION AGAINST COLOURED RAILWAY EMPLOYEES

Mr. Martin (Essex East): 1.	Has the government received any complaints regarding discrimination against coloured employees of the railways, particularly as regards promotion opportunities?
2.	If so, from whom have these complaints been received?
3.	What reply has been made?
Starred, Questions


Noël Dorion: Mr. Speaker, I would ask that this question be made an order for return.


Mr. Speaker:: Order for return.



INDIAN RESERVE, SARNIA  TRANSFER OF LAND TITLE

Mr. Pickersgill: 1.	Has title to any part of the Indian reserve at Sarnia covered by the contract with Dimensional Investments Limited been given to any other person or corporation?
2.	If so, for what area, and to what person or corporation?
3.	If not, is consideration being given to transferring title to any part of this property, and, if so, to whom?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Speaker, the answer to this question is as follows:
1.	Yes.
2.	(a) the Hydro Electric Power Commission of Ontario, 173.823 acres.
(b)	Sun Oil Company Limited, 112.000 acres.
(c)	Dow Chemical of Canada Limited, 66.666 acres.
(d)	St. Clair Chemical Limited, 10.000 acres.
(e)	Gunnar Realty Limited, 101.384 acres. This makes a total of 463.873 acres.
3.	Not applicable.



ENFRANCHISEMENT OF INDIANS

Mr. Howard: How many Indians, if any, by province have been enfranchised for each of the years 1959 and 1960?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Speaker, the answer to this question is in the form of a statistical table and I ask that it be made an order for return.


Mr. Howard:: Mr. Speaker, could we have this printed in Hansard at this point as read?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: This is a fairly short table, and if it is desired to have it printed at this point I have no objection.


Mr. Speaker:: Is the house agreeable that
this statistical report	be printed	instead of
read?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.		
[Editors note: The	table above referred to	
is as follows:]		
	Fiscal year	Fiscal year
	1959-60	1960-61
Nova Scotia 	
6	15Prince Edward Island	.... Nil	1New Brunswick 	
17	26Quebec 	
45	56Ontario 	
356	276Manitoba 	
193	108Saskatchewan 	
113	126Alberta 	
95	64British Columbia ...	
234	238Northwest Territories	.... 32	23Yukon Territory	
32	21-	- , .Totals 	954
Starred Questions
SECTION 96(a)(2), INDIAN ACT


Mr. Howard: Since July 1, 1958, has section 96 (A) (2) of the Indian Act been declared to be in force, and, if so, what is the name of each Indian band affected, and the date upon which the said section was so declared to be in force?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Speaker, I would ask that this question be made an order for return. I think the answer is too long to be printed at this point.


Mr. Speaker:: Order for return.



SARNIA INDIAN RESERVE


Mr. Fisher: 1.	In relation to the Sarnia Indian reserve and land deals with outside agencies, do any of the Indians, including the chief, hold land individually which come within the negotiations and arrangements that have been made in the past two years?
2.	If so, which Indians, and how much land does each hold?
3.	Did the chief alone, or the chief for and with the band council, or the agent for the council, wire the minister asking that there be an extension of the arrangement with dimensional investments?
4.	How long has the present incumbent been the chief?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Speaker, the answer to this question is as follows:
1.	Yes.
2.	The common lands of the band on the Sarnia reserve consist of only 16 acres. All the remainder of the 3,100 acres involved in this sale has been located to individual members. Particulars, including the name of the Indian locatee and the area held by each individual Indian are contained in schedule "B" of the agreement of sale which was tabled in the house on June 8, 1959, in response to notice of motion No. 106 of May 12, 1959.
3.	No.
4.	Since June 16, 1958.



NATIONAL SURPLUSES AND DEFICITS

Mr. Carter: 1.	What was the government of Canada's surplus or deficit in each of the years from 1950 to 1960 inclusive?
2.	What was the rise or fall in the cost of living for each year during the same period?


Noël Dorion: Mr. Speaker, I would ask that this question be made an order for return.


Mr. Speaker:: Order for return.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. Martin (Essex East): 1.	Has the government received any complaints regarding discrimination against coloured employees of the railways, particularly as regards promotion opportunities?
2.	If so, from whom have these complaints been received?
3.	What reply has been made?


SECTION 96 (A) (2), INDIAN ACT
Mr. Howard: Since July 1, 1958, has section 96 (A)	(2) of
the Indian Act been declared to be in force, and, if so, what is the name of each Indian band affected, and the date upon which the said section was so declared to be in force?
NATIONAL surpluses and deficits

Question No. 330-Mr. Carter:
1.	What was the government of Canada's surplus or deficit in each of the years from 1950 to 1960 inclusive?
2.	What was the rise or fall in the cost of living for each year during the same period?



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS


[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 99-Mr. Argue:
For a copy of all correspondence, telegrams, and other documents exchanged between the Department of Agriculture, the Canadian wheat board, and any individual or company, since January 1, 1961, in connection with the demolition of the old customs building situated at the corner of Main and McDermot avenue in Winnipeg.
Hon. Alvin Hamilton (Minister of Agriculture):: I can accept this motion, subject to the usual reservation that correspondence between the department and the wheat board is considered to be privileged.


Mr. Speaker:: Subject to the reservation requested by the minister, is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion?


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 118-Mr. Mcllrailh:
For a copy of the contract between the Canadian wheat board and the China Resources Company for the sale of grain covering the period June 1, 1961, to November 30, 1961.
Francis Alvin George Hamilton: Mr. Speaker, I have to advise the house that I cannot accept this motion, because it calls for the production of documents which are considered to be privileged.


Mr. G. J. Mcllraith (Ottawa West):: Mr. Speaker, I point out that this document was referred to by the minister in his statement to the house the other day.

Motions for Papers


Mr. Speaker:: Does the hon. member wish to proceed with the motion, in view of what the minister has said, or is he prepared to drop it?


George James McIlraith: No; I would ask that the motion be put.


Mr. Speaker:: Those in favour of the motion will please say yea.


Some hon. Members:: Yea.


Mr. Speaker:: Those against it please say
nay.


Some hon. Members:: Nay.


Mr. Speaker:: In my opinion the nays have it.
(And more than five members having risen:)


Mr. Speaker:: Call in the members.


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: Mr. Speaker, as with the last motion, I must point out that never in the past have commercial contracts of the Canadian wheat board been made public, in the interests of keeping information from our competitors. I should like to point out that at the present time Australia is competing for markets in China.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The minister may
either accept or reject the motion, but he is not entitled to debate it. In view of the explanation, does the hon. member wish to proceed?

Motions for Papers


George James McIlraith: I wish to proceed, Mr. Speaker, but I wish to raise a point of order as to the right of the minister to refuse production. I will try to keep my remarks strictly relevant to the point of order, and to make them brief.


Some hon. Members:: Question.


Mr. Speaker:: I doubt whether any such point could arise on a motion on which the house itself will decide whether the documents are to be produced. The minister has no power to refuse production. It is the house which is to determine the issue.


George James McIlraith: My point is this-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. If the hon. member has a point of order I will be interested to hear what it is, but I have indicated my views on the matter.


George James McIlraith: My point of order has to do with whether this matter has been determined. It arises out of this. It will be seen from the form of the motion that it refers to a particular agreement which is clearly identified, and it is identified with an agreement referred to on motions on Tuesday, May 2, 1961. It will be seen that the precise language of the motion now before the house is in accordance with the precise language used in that item of business on motions on Tuesday, May 2. If Your Honour wishes any further reference to the identification of it-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


George James McIlraith: -the minister said on that occasion, as reported at page 4205 of Hansard:
I am now pleased to report that a long term agreement has been signed. This long term agreement covers the period June 1, 1961 to December, 1963.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member is making the point, as I understand it, that the document, having been referred to before, must be produced and therefore the minister has no power to refuse production. But I think the hon. member has misconceived his rights under the rules and, if I may say so, if he felt the document, when referred to, ought to have been produced he should then have required its production. The issue before the house now is not the right of the minister to withhold or produce, but whether the house will order him to produce the document. Therefore to my mind the point which the hon. member makes is immaterial and is not properly taken at this time.


George James McIlraith: Mr. Speaker, certainly I have no quarrel with what you have said, except that it has not fully dealt with the point of order that I was seeking to raise, because it has anticipated the point of order

in part. My point does arise out of the obligation of a minister of the crown to produce the document. The reference on that point is contained in Beauchesne, fourth edition, at page 134, citation 159, subparagraph (2), which reads:
A minister of the crown is not at liberty to read or quote from a despatch or other state paper not before the house, unless he be prepared to lay it upon the table. This restraint is similar to the rule of evidence in courts of law, which prevent counsel from citing documents which have not been produced in evidence. The principle is so reasonable that it has not been contested; and when the objection has been made in time, it has been generally acquiesced in.
My point is that the minister determined this matter by his action on Tuesday, May 2, on motions. It having been determined by his action then, to which no objection was taken at that time, it is not now open to the house to refuse it and what is before the house is a mere formality.


Mr. Speaker:: I have heard the hon. member out but, as I rather anticipated when he began, what is now before the house is a motion which is not debatable unless it is deferred for debate under the rules. The motion prays that His Excellency the Governor General will cause to be laid before this house a copy of a certain agreement. That is the only issue before the house. The minister has indicated that he is opposed to the motion, but the matter still falls for the decision of the house. Accordingly I shall put the question.



COMBINES INVESTIGATION, NEW DRUGS

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 122-Mr. Howard:
For a copy of all correspondence, telegrams, and other documents exchanged between the government or the combines investigation branch of the Department of Justice or the restrictive trades practices commission and:
Abbott Laboratories Ltd.; Ames Co. of Canada Ltd.; Anca Pharmaceuticals, div. of The Wander Co. of Canada Ltd.; Anglo-French Drug Co. Ltd.; Arlington-Funk Laboratories div. of U.S. Vitamin Corp. of Canada Ltd.; Arner Co. Ltd.; Astra Pharmaceuticals (Canada) Ltd.; Ayerst, McKenna and Harrison Ltd.; Baxter Laboratories of Canada Ltd.; Beecham Research Laboratories Ltd.; Bristol Laboratories of Canada Ltd.; The British Drug Houses (Canada) Ltd.; Burroughs Wellcome and Co. (Canada) Ltd.; Carter, Cummings and Co. Ltd.; Casgrain and Charbonneau Ltee.; Ciba Co. Ltd.; Cyanamid of Canada Ltd.; Charles E. Frosst and Co.; Geigy Pharmaceuticals, div. of Geigy (Canada) Ltd.; Glaxo-Allenburys (Canada) Ltd.; J. F. Hartz Co. Ltd.; Hoechst Pharmaceuticals of Canada Ltd.; Hoffman-La Roche Ltd.; Frank W. Horner Ltd.; Ingram and Bell Ltd.; Laboratoires Nadeau Ltee.; Lakeside Laboratories (Canada) Ltd.; Laurentian Laboratories Ltd.; Eli Lilly and Co. (Canada) Ltd.; Lloyd Brothers Pharmaceuticals Ltd.; Mallinckrodt Chemical Works Ltd.; May and Baker (Canada) Ltd.; Mead Johnson of Canada Ltd.; Merck and Company Ltd. Merck Sharp and Dohme div.; The Wm. S. Merrell Co.; Mowatt and Moore Ltd.; Ortho Pharmaceutical (Canada) Ltd.; Parke Davis and Co. Ltd.; S. B. Penick and Co.; Pfizer Canada, div. of Pfizer Corp.; Pitman-Moore of Canada Ltd.; E. B. Shuttleworth div. of H. Powell Chemical Co. Ltd.; Rougier Inc.; Sandoz Pharmaceuticals, div. of Sandoz (Canada) Ltd.; W. E. Saunders Ltd.; R. P. Scherer Ltd.; Shering Corp. Ltd.; G. D. Searle and Co. of Canada Ltd.; Smith Kline and French Inter-American Corp.; E. R. Squibb and Sons of Canada Ltd.; Strong Cobb of Canada Ltd.; The Upjohn Co. of Canada; Henry K. Wampole and Co. Ltd.; Warner-Chilcott Laboratories Co. Ltd.; Charles R. Will and Co. Ltd.; Winthrop Laboratories of Canada Ltd.; John Wyeth and Brother (Canada) Ltd.; and for a copy of all books, papers, records or other documents obtained by the combines Investigation branch from the said pharmaceutical companies, since January 1, 1957, dealing with the investigation recently completed by the combines investigation branch which resulted in a statement of evidence being submitted to the restrictive trade practices commission regarding the selling and pricing policies of certain pharmaceutical houses in respect of new types of drugs.
Hon. E. D. Fulton (Minister of Justice):: Mr. Speaker, the documents asked for are clearly documents which were obtained by or prepared for the director for the purposes of an inquiry which parliament has provided, under the Combines Investigation Act, should be held in private. As I explained last week on May 3 and 4, these documents form the basis for the statement of material prepared by the director, which statement, together with the documents, is now before the commission. The commission's report will be made in due course and will contain reference to such of the documents as the commission deems appropriate, and that report will be made public.

Division
I cannot accept the motion tor the production of documents which parliament has intended should be private.


Frank Howard: Mr. Speaker, I think the dealings of some of these drug manufacturers should see the light of day, and I wish the motion to be put.



NATIONAL DEFENCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Prime Minister whether he could make a statement to the house on the Canadian position in regard to the offer made by the United States to NATO forces of five submarines with Polaris nuclear missiles?


Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, as yet we have received no official report concerning what took place at the NATO meeting. The only report we have is the press report to the effect that such matters as disarmament were given support and that the West Berlin question was discussed. As well, there was a reference to the subject matter of the point raised by the hon. gentleman.
I think the house should have a copy of the communique, and as soon as it is received I shall table it.



UNITED NATIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Hazen Argue (Assiniboia):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Prime Minister. Would the Prime Minister care to say what is Canada's position at NATO with regard to Angola forced labour conditions and discrimination against the Angolans by the Portuguese?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, so far as Angola is concerned, there was a resolution in the United Nations on April 20 which called upon the government of Portugal to consider urgently the introduction of measures of reform in Angola, and asked the president of the general assembly to appoint a subcommittee to examine the statements made before the general assembly concerning Angola, to receive further statements and to conduct inquiries and report to the general assembly. This resolution was sponsored by 36 Afro-Asian states. In the vote Canada supported the motion and took a stand which is very clear.


Hazen Robert Argue: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Would the Prime Minister say whether the Canadian Secretary of State for External Affairs will raise this question at the NATO meeting? Would the Prime Minister comment on a press report to the effect that our minister of external affairs has decided, at least for the time being, to drop the matter?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I have no observations to make on press reports. All I can say is that was the stand that Canada took on April 20, and our position is unchanged in that regard.


Hazen Robert Argue: The Prime Minister cannot say whether Canada will raise this question at the NATO meeting?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I think the NATO meeting has concluded. The hon. gentleman, as is frequently the case, is again somewhat late.


Hazen Robert Argue: Could the Prime Minister explain to the house why the Secretary of State for External Affairs did not make a prepared speech on this subject?


Mr. Speaker:: I am not sure that the hon. member is asking about something within the administrative responsibility of the minister in question. I rather think not.
Inquiries of the Ministry



REPRESENTATIONS RESPECTING DEATHS OF U.N. SOLDIERS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, yesterday the hon. member for Vancouver East asked me a question as to whether the Canadian government had communicated with the United Nations regarding recent attacks involving the . deaths of a number of United Nations soldiers in the Congo and whether representations had been made so that those responsible would be brought to trial.
The United Nations, without the need for any prompting or representation from member states, has undertaken an investigation of the tragic circumstances of the recent incident in which a number of Ghanaian soldiers and several officers of British and Swedish nationality were killed.
I think this is an occasion upon which to express our sympathy to the government and army of Ghana for their losses and express our admiration for the substantial and effective contribution Ghana has made to the United Nations operations in the Congo. The conduct of operations there and the difficulties encountered are matters which come to the attention of the secretary general's advisory committee on the Congo. Canada is represented on this committee, and Canadian views are expressed as the occasion requires.



EXTERNAL AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. A. D. McPhillips (Victoria, B.C.):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Prime Minister. I wonder whether the Prime Minister could bring the house up to date on the present situation in Laos.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, the international
supervisory commission arrived in Laos on May 8. The commissioners and some of their advisers are in Vientiane. Representatives of India, Canada and Poland are also proceeding to Xieng Khouang, the headquarters of Souvana Phouma. As I indicated on Monday, the first task of the commission will be, and I quote from the message of the co-chairmen of the commission on May 6:
-to fix the cease fire in accordance with the understanding of the belligerent parties in Laos and to exercise supervision and control over it.
Canada will be represented at the international conference on Laos which is being held in Geneva on May 12. It will then have an opportunity to make known its views on the supervisory arrangements which may be necessary in the future.

Inquiries of the Ministry
The same question was raised yesterday, I think it was, respecting the observance of the cease fire. There has been no change in the last two days. There is no information to substantiate press reports that some difficulty was encountered at a meeting yesterday between representatives of the two parties. The commission, of course, just arrived, and conditions in Laos are disturbed with the result that communication difficulties are bound to arise at first.
I think the hon. gentleman would have a rather full explanation if the house would agree to the printing as an appendix to Hansard of the message from the co-chairmen of the Geneva conference on Indo-China to the international commission for supervision and control in Laos, which sets forth fairly completely the situation as it is today.


Mr. Speaker:: Is the house agreeable that this document be printed as an appendix to Hansard.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
[Editor's note:	For text of document
referred to above, see appendix "A".]


Paul Joseph James Martin: May I ask
the Prime Minister a question with regard to the Geneva conference which is scheduled to open on May 12. In view of the reported failure thus far to arrive at a complete cease fire in Laos, according to news received at 9 o'clock over the radio, will the Prime Minister say if Canada takes the same position as that taken by the United Kingdom and the United States, namely that there will be difficulty on the part of those countries with regard to their participation in the conference until such time as a cease fire has been determined?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman asked me a question yesterday as to whether the commission's functions other than supervision of the cease fire had been determined. In so far as the particular observation he now makes is concerned, may I say that our stand has been made very clear. After the conclusion of an agreement between the belligerent parties in Laos on questions connected with the cease fire, the commission should exercise control over the execution of this agreement. Those are the words in the document which has just been tabled as an appendix to Hansard.
Furthermore, as to the functions which the international commission for supervision and control in Laos will carry out on the completion of the first stage of the work, the determination of these functions falls within the competence of the international conference on Laos which will be held in Geneva beginning on May 12.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I thank the Prime Minister for answering my question of yesterday, but obviously I was not clear enough in the question I asked this morning. My question this morning had to do with what would be the attitude of Canada with regard to participation in this conference on May 12 in Geneva if the cease fire has not been determined, particularly in the light of the announcement by the United Kingdom that it would not attend the conference unless a cease fire had been determined by the international supervisory commission.


John George Diefenbaker: Canada will be represented at the opening of the conference. The stand that she will take will be announced at that time.


THE CENSUS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. R. Garland (Nipissing):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Finance, based on a press report in today's Globe and Mail, and ask him whether it is true that five census commissioners appointed in the riding of Eglinton are officers of the local Progressive Conservative Association.


An hon. Member:: Who do you think they would be?
Another hon. Member: Now we know.


Mr. Speaker:: Order.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I have not seen the article in question, Mr. Speaker. I do not know about the situation raised by the question as to all the persons concerned, but I can assure him that they are all very estimable citizens.


John Richard Garland: I have a supplementary
question. In view of the tens of thousands of unemployed persons in the Toronto area, does he not think that more prudent choices could have been made?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I think the hon. member is now presenting a point of view rather than asking a question. I recognize the hon. member for Port Arthur.


Mr. D. M. Fisher (Pori Arthur):: My question is a supplementary one on this topic, but I want to go to the gentleman who is looking after the matter, namely the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Trade and Commerce. I wonder if the parliamentary secretary would say whether any specific census district has been set up so that work

or jobs are correlated with the membership drives of any Progressive Conservative riding association.


Mr. Graffiey:: Supercilious nonsense.


Edmund Leverett Morris: No.


GRAIN-RATE OF STERLING EXCHANGE IN SALE TO CHINA
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
George James McIlraith: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture in order to obtain clarification of some previous answers given by him with reference to the proposed sale of wheat and the long term agreement with communist China. In his announcement he is reported as having indicated the value of the contract as approximately $362 million. There was no reference in that statement to sterling. Later on the same day-I refer to the day of the announcement-in answer to a question on the orders of the day he is reported as having said this, as found at page 4206 of Hansard:
-as I understand it all the payments will be made in sterling.
My question is this. Will he advise the house as to what rate of exchange he used in computing the dollar value given?


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: Mr. Speaker, I will take this question as notice. However, I think more properly the question should go on the order paper.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Deeper and deeper secrecy.


George James McIlraith: I have a supplementary question.


Mr. Speaker:: There is no occasion for a supplementary question when the original question is taken as notice. The hon. member may ask another question in due course. I recognize the hon. member for Gloucester.



RAND REPORT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. J. Robichaud (Gloucester):: I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys. On February 14, almost 12 weeks ago, the minister advised this house that the interdepartmental committee appointed to study the recommendations of the Rand commission was expected to complete its study within a few weeks. Is the minister now in a position to advise the
Inquiries of the Ministry house whether the report has been received by the government? Also, is the minister in a position to report to the house on its findings?
(Translation):


Hon. Paul Comiois (Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys):: Mr. Speaker, only a few days ago I again asked the interdepartmental
committee to hasten its consideration of the Rand report, so that the recommendations may be submitted to the cabinet committee. I was given the assurance that that study was almost completed, and I hope to be in a position to make an announcement shortly.
(Text):



COLUMBIA RIVER


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. W. Herridge (Kootenay West):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to address a question to the Minister of Justice. My question is based upon the curiosity of a lot of people and a number of phone calls.
In view of a report in the Vancouver Sun yesterday that the minister was meeting with Mr. Udall, United States secretary of the interior, to discuss Canada's failure to ratify the Columbia river treaty; and in view of the fact that the United States secretary of the interior told a press conference in Ottawa yesterday, "We are champing at the bit", has the minister any information to give the house with respect to his discussions with the United States secretary of the interior on the Columbia river treaty?


Edmund Davie Fulton: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman was good enough to send me notice of his intention to ask this question. May I first correct a misapprehension appearing in it and state positively that Canada has not failed to ratify the Columbia river treaty.
With regard to my discussions yesterday with Mr. Udall, United States secretary of the interior, these were of course confidential, but apparently the secretary of the interior was reported as saying at a press conference that the United States is anxious to get on with the construction of the projects called for under the treaty. I can make no comment on that. The remarks of the secretary of the interior are self explanatory.
I can, however, say that this government is also anxious to see construction started at the earliest possible moment in order that the benefits of the treaty may be realized, and that the 31 million man-hours of employment on at-site construction in Canada may begin

Inquiries of the Ministry to be realized as early as possible. We hope, therefore, that British Columbia will make up its mind what it wants to do in the very near future.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. In view of the report in the Vancouver Sun yesterday that the United States was putting pressure on Canada to get cracking on the Columbia river development, would the minister inform the house of his reaction to this reported pressure?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I think the hon. member's supplementary was covered in the original question.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Mr. Speaker, unless you rule the question out of order I should like to say that I am not aware of any pressure being applied by the government of the United States.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Is the minister in a position to give the house an assurance that the storage dams and hydro development projects under this treaty will commence in 1961?


Edmund Davie Fulton: No, I am not in a position to give that assurance. Perhaps my hon. friend's question should be addressed to the premier of British Columbia.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Minister of Trade and Commerce a question arising out of the minister's reply. If that is the case, why has the Minister of Trade and Commerce authorized a publication entitled "Industrial investment projects in Canada" which includes $458 million for hydro development and storage dam projects under the Columbia river treaty construction to begin in 1961?


Hon. George H. Hees (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: It is our hope-


Mr. Pickersgill:: Another vision.


George Harris Hees: -that this very important construction program-something not conceived by the late lamented Liberal government- will get under way as soon as possible.


Mr. Benidickson:: The record speaks for itself.


An hon. Member:: It surely does.



PUBLIC SERVICE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Frank Howard: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Prime Minister and ask him, in view of the announcement of the appointment of Mr. Jack Stepler as public relations officer to

the Canadian high commissioner to the United Kingdom, whether he would announce what the salary structure and promotion steps of Mr. Stepler will be.


Mr. Speaker:: I think the hon. member should give notice of that question on the order paper in the usual way as it calls for statistical information.



HOUSING


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Harold E. Winch (Vancouver East):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Public Works. Would the minister inform the house whether an advertisement which was carried by the Daily Telegraph in London, England, on May 6, demonstrates a policy of Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation to recruit personnel overseas for vacancies existing in the head office and regional and district offices of the corporation in Canada?


David James Walker: Mr. Speaker, I will be very glad to accept that question as notice; but as my friend the hon. member for Vancouver East probably knows, there are 20,000 to 25,000 jobs for skilled workers which are unfilled. I presume if there was an advertisement, it was in that connection.


Harold Edward Winch: I have the ad here.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that we are having morning sessions until one o'clock and the house reconvenes at 2.30, may I ask the Prime Minister whether he thinks it is conducive to the proper discharge of our duties to have committees meet from one o'clock to 2.30?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I have no control over the committees; they determine their own affairs. This is somewhat different from the old days.


John Whitney Pickersgill: It is certainly somewhat different.
(Translation):



BRIDGES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for St. Henry

put a question to me yesterday about the Champlain bridge. He asked me to tell the house whether the plans for the bridge approaches were completed and, if not, what was the cause of the delay.
In reply, I may inform him that the plans are completed.
The hon. member also asked the following supplementary question:
Is it a fact that the government is waiting for the Montreal city authorities to decide where the east-west express highway will pass before deciding on the site for the Champlain bridge approaches?
Well, the national harbours board will not wait necessarily until the lay-out of the east-west express highway is completed, but it will take into consideration the city's plans so that the bridge approaches may be connected with the express highway in question.
(Text):



UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Miss Judy V. LaMarsh (Niagara Falls):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Labour arising from a report in the Niagara Falls Evening Review of Saturday, May 6, where it was reported that one Harry Roberts, the president of the union for the unemployed, had inquired of the local unemployment insurance commission why one day's benefit had been deducted for the day he had been in Ottawa. He said he received a cheque with a note saying "Not available while in Ottawa". Upon inquiring further he was told that the information came from the newspapers and the quotation was, "You have been getting too much publicity, I fear".
My question is, in view of this government's predilection for publicity, is the criterion now-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member is entitled to ask for information but not to make debating remarks such as she was making. Perhaps the hon. member would ask her question before one o'clock.


Julia Verlyn (Judy) LaMarsh: -is the criterion as to whether or not one receives unemployment insurance to be whether one has publicity about his presence in an area on a day for which he is to be paid?


Hon. Michael Starr (Minister of Labour):: Mr. Speaker, the hon. lady has asked me a question similar to the one she asked last
90205-6-291
Inquiries of the Ministry Thursday, as reported in Hansard at page 4322. The hon. member's question was:
Has the minister received information to the effect that notwithstanding his assurance given to members of the unemployed delegation who visited Ottawa ten days ago, they have been deprived of their unemployment insurance benefits for the day of that visit?
I advised the hon. member that I had turned over the correspondence I had received to the unemployment insurance commission. That correspondence was signed by Mr. Heinz Richter, chairman of the Welland union of unemployed. On the basis of the information I have now received from the unemployment insurance commission I am dispatching today the following answer to Mr. Richter:
I referred the question to the unemployment insurance commission who inform me that the individual cases are now being decided by the adjudicating authorities authorized under the provisions of the act. The question at issue is whether the person concerned has maintained his availability for work.
Section 54 (2) of the Unemployment Insurance Act reads in part:
"An insured person is disqualified from receiving benefit in respect of every day for which he fails to prove that he was
(a) capable of and available for work".
This is a statutory requirement that permits of no discretionary powers.
This means that a claimant must be ready, able and willing to immediately accept suitable work. The claimants concerned are unlikely to be considered as having fulfilled this requirement on the day(s) engaged in the meeting that took place in Ottawa.
It is for this reason that benefit has been withheld pending decision of the adjudicating author-


Julia Verlyn (Judy) LaMarsh: A supplementary question-


Mr. Speaker:: I wonder whether the hon. member would mind deferring her supplementary question until after the adjournment.
At one o'clock the house took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The house resumed at 2.30 p.m.
Julia Verlyn (Judy) LaMarsh: I should like to direct a supplementary question to the Minister of Labour. In view of the fact that among the delegation there were between 600 and 1,000 unemployed, can the minister say, bearing in mind that there were only some 60 from the county of Welland, whether individuals from any other riding in Ontario have been deprived of their day's benefit as a result of coming to Ottawa with the delegation.


Michael Starr: The first part of the hon. lady's statement is incorrect. As to the second part, I have

Inquiries of the Ministry had communications from three individuals. That is the extent to which this matter has been brought to my attention.



PUBLICATIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Douglas Mason Fisher: I should like to ask the Prime Minister whether he has in his hands the report of the royal commission on publications and, if so, when a copy will be tabled in the house.


John George Diefenbaker: The Prime Minister is not holding the report of that royal commission, nor has he received it.



PIPE LINES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. P. Deschatelets (Maisonneuve-Rose-moni):: Can the Prime Minister say whether any decision has been reached by the government concerning the construction of a pipe line to Montreal?


John George Diefenbaker: That, as the hon. gentleman knows, is a matter of government policy, and when and if the government has an announcement to make it will be made in the house.



TRANS-CANADA HIGHWAY REQUEST FOR INCLUSION OF HIGHWAY IN BRITISH COLUMBIA

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Frank Howard: I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Public Works. Perhaps it could appear in Hansard and be taken as notice, or answered by the acting minister. Has the minister received a communication by telegram from the minister of highways of British Columbia, Mr. Gaglardi, requesting that the section of highway on Vancouver island from Nanaimo north to Port Hardy be declared as coming under the Trans-Canada Highway Act and, if so, what consideration is being given to this request.


Hon. J. A. MacLean (Acting Minister of Public Works):: I will bring the question to the attention of the minister, and he will advise the hon. member at the first opportunity.



INDUSTRY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John Whitney Pickersgill: I should like to ask the Minister of Transport whether he expects to be in a position before the end of the month to announce the government's proposals for aiding the shipbuilding industry in view of the urgency of getting shipbuilding started again.


Léon Balcer: I have already answered that question a couple of times and, as I have said, this is a matter of government policy. When there is an announcement it will be made at the proper time in the house.



ROYAL CANADIAN MOUNTED POLICE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Douglas Mason Fisher: I should like to ask the Minister of Justice whether he would comment on the charges given much coverage in the press that the R.C.M.P. are checking on the background of high school students active in ban the bomb movements.


Edmund Davie Fulton: have not seen much coverage of that question in the press.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Has the minister not seen the stories in the Montreal Star, the Toronto Star and the Toronto Telegram of yesterday expressing the reaction of one father who is complaining about the R.C.M.P. questioning his daughter, who has been active in the ban the bomb movement in Montreal?


Edmund Davie Fulton: No. If the hon. gentleman cares to bring an individual complaint to my attention it will be investigated.



OLD AGE SECURITY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Paul Joseph James Martin: I should like to ask the Minister of National Health and Welfare whether he has yet completed his study of the Clark report, which deals with the old age security contributory system in the United States and, if he has, whether he expects to make an announcement in this house before May 29 next.


Jay Waldo Monteith: As I have said many times, I have been studying this report very

carefully. My department and other departments concerned have also been studying it. As to any announcement, that would, of course, be made in the ordinary way on the floor of the house after a decision had been reached.



FISHERIES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Frank Howard: I wonder if I might ask the Minister of Justice whether he has had an opportunity to examine Bill No. C-76, in the name of the hon. member for Burin-Burgeo, to see whether any of its provisions are inconsistent with the bill of rights.


Edmund Davie Fulton: That matter was discussed when the bill to amend the Fisheries Act was before the house, and I have nothing to add to what I had to say then.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Chown in the chair.
DEPARTMENT OF NORTHERN AFFAIRS AND NATIONAL RESOURCES National parks branch-
283. Branch administration, national parks and historic sites and monuments, $268,584.


Harold Edward Winch: Vote No. 283 has to do with the administration of the national parks branch, and includes the national parks and historic sites and monuments sections. I should like to speak for a few minutes on the aspect of historic sites and monuments. In this house in the past I have always given every support I possibly could to the establishment and maintenance of historic sites and monuments. I have also expressed the view that we are not paying sufficient attention to this question, and that we are not spending sufficient money on it. I have expressed my belief that this section does not have suflicient personnel to be able to devote sufficient care to a matter which is important now and which will be increasingly important in the years ahead with the development of Canada.
In the past I have spoken in generalities in support of the work of this section of the national parks branch, but this afternoon I should like to do something which I have not done before and particularize on a matter which is of great concern to myself and to my constituency. I should like to ask the minister and the departmental officials in charge of this branch to give consideration to the establishment of an historic site in 90205-6-2914
Supply-Northern Affairs Vancouver East. I am certain that all hon. members will realize that Vancouver is the largest city in western Canada and the third largest city in Canada and that, as a port on the Pacific coast, it is the gateway to the Pacific. As development takes place, there is no question at all that Vancouver, important as it is now to the Canadian economy, will grow in importance.
I realize that the officials of the national historic sites and monuments board are interested in the development of sites of national interest, but I suggest that no site is of interest only in a national respect but must also be of interest to provincial and local authorities. I understand that attention has been drawn to a particular historic site in Vancouver, and it happens that the site to which I have reference is situated in the constituency of Vancouver East. This site is in the northeastern section of my riding and by the grace of the fates, or by the grace of God, it is the most important historic site on the Pacific coast.
I refer to a five acre plot of land which is now being used as pasture and as a playground for children. This area of land has not been desecrated by the development of industry, the establishment of buildings, or the expansion of the exhibition board in Vancouver. The city of Vancouver began its growth on this five acre site in the northeastern section of Vancouver East. The first government administration was originally located on this site, as well as the first post office and the first customs collection office.
Perhaps I could take a few moments to give the historic background of this area and its importance not only to the city of Vancouver and the province of British Columbia but to the whole of Canada. The area is bordered by Burrard inlet. The first settlement of what is now the city of Vancouver was in this area in 1869. In the same year Mr. O. M. Hocking built the first barn, established the first float, and saw the first bridge built over Burrard inlet from this site. In 1869 Mr. Hocking was the first customs collection officer on the Pacific coast, and in that same year the first post office on the Pacific coast was established in that same area. Also at that time the first telegraph system was started on the Pacific coast, known as the Brighton telegraph company. Mr. Hocking could perhaps be regarded as a squatter at that time, because it was not until a few years later that the first blocks of land were put up for sale. It was as a result of that sale that the first post office, first customs collection office, and the first, hotel, the New Brighton, were established.
I think it is significant that during the establishment of all these firsts, to which I

Supply-Northern Affairs have referred, this five acre area has not been desecrated or swallowed up by expansion or modern developments. I cannot conceive of this situation continuing very much longer unless speedy action is taken to recognize the significance of this as an historical site, and suggest that consideration be given to its development by the national authority, by the provincial authority and by the officials of the city of Vancouver itself.
I have been advised by that most fabulous man, Major J. S. Matthews, V.D., the Vancouver city archivist, that this matter has been brought to the attention of the federal department, and he feels convinced that if speedy action is taken by the authorities of the city, the province and the federal government in recognizing this area as an historic site, the citizens of Vancouver will be very interested and helpful in developing that five acre block by the reconstruction of the site as it existed in the years 1869 and 1886.
It is very fortunate that there are still in existence, and available, photographs of that area as it was in those years. I have in my hand at the moment a photograph which depicts the exact situation as it was in the years I have mentioned, so it would be quite possible to create an exact replica of the area. I am particularly interested in that site as it existed in 1886, when the first hotel on the Pacific coast was built, * as well as the first post office and first customs office, as shown in this picture which I have in my hand.
The reason I am taking up the time of the committee is to bring this particular matter to the attention of the minister and to ask for early and speedy consideration of the acquisition and maintenance of this most historic site in western Canada in the northeast corner of my own constituency. I can assure the minister of the need for early action. I can also assure him that if he can give us any indication of interest in and support of this site by this branch of his department, the citizens of Vancouver in gen-neral and the citizens of the Vancouver East federal riding in particular will be glad to cooperate in any way they possibly can. I assure the minister that money will be forthcoming to establish a replica in that five acre area, which is now being used as a pasture and playground, of what was the situation in 1869 and 1886. I hope the minister can give me some assurance of his interest in this matter, and that speedy consideration will be given to the request of my constituents with respect to this historic site in the third largest city of Canada.


Mr. Mandziuk:: Mr. Chairman, this is my first opportunity to congratulate the Minister

of Northern Affairs and National Resources. The pleasure is all the deeper owing to the fact that his is my neighbouring constituency to the south.
I was very pleased to hear the remarks of the hon. member for Vancouver East, because I am on the same beam. I agree with everything he has said. Of course we rarely agree on other matters, but I have an historical site in the constituency of Marquette. We all know that all we have left is something to remind us of how our country was explored, how the great west was opened up to the fur trade and following that to agriculture. The west is dotted with historical sites. At some of them battles were fought with the natives. Other sites are the places where the fur trade and commerce played a great part in the development of that country.
It is pathetic, Mr. Chairman, to go in my constituency to a site which 130 years ago was the centre of the western fur trade- that was long before the settlers came-* and find that all that can be seen there are sunken graves, a few stone markers, rotted crosses to mark the old cemetery where the whites and the natives were buried, and so on. You can still see very slight traces of the stone foundations and the broken up bake ovens; the lines of the stockade are still traceable.
The site I am referring to is old Fort Ellice, about which much has been written in the history of Manitoba. One hundred and thirty years ago-this was after the two rival fur trading companies had amalgamated-a fort was built five miles below the mouth of the Qu'Appelle river on the steep banks of the Assiniboine river. It was a stopping point on the cart trail between Winnipeg and Edmonton. The land belonged to the Assiniboine Indians. The purpose of the fort was to catch the Indian fur trappers and prevent them from going south to trade with the United States fur traders. Since it was on the Assiniboine, it was also a waterway from Winnipeg to the fort. At this fort 50 years ago there were many wagon trails. Trails of the Red river carts converged in various directions from Fort Ellice and to Fort Ellice, as do rail lines coming into Winnipeg. All that is left of that fort, Mr. Chairman, are just very few traces of what was once a great fur trading post.
In 1930 the municipality, with assistance from local municipalities, erected a beautiful cairn to mark the spot. It stands a few feet outside marks where the palisade once stood. The village of St. Lazare, which I am proud to say is inhabited mainly by French Canadians, is enterprising enough to have started rebuilding this fort by its own efforts. In due course I will tell the committee why. Last

year they cut poles to rebuild the stockade. They want to restore the buildings and establish a museum on the spot. Through their organized efforts they wish to preserve this historic gateway to Edmonton.
I might add, Mr. Chairman, that in 1936 the historic sites and monuments board looked into the matter of Fort Ellice but no action was taken. In September, 1960 the board's fur trade committee examined Fort Ellice together with other western fur trading sites, and placed it ninth in the order of importance. I should like to draw to the attention of the minister the opinion of my constituents and of the Canadian people to the effect that anything worth preserving is of sufficient importance that it cannot be graded up or down. It is either worth preserving or it is not. True, no battles were fought, no blood was shed at this particular fort, but a battle was fought against the elements, against nature; a battle was fought to blaze trails for the fur traders; a battle was fought to blaze trails for the settlers who subsequently came to this area.
Now the area is a thriving farming community. The local people for miles around can take pride in this old site. They are prepared to do as much as possible on their own. The people of this area feel sure, Mr. Chairman, that this department, under the able leadership of a man who knows this area and knows this constituency, will give assistance. We still have photographs and plans of the old fort. The people want to restore it so that future generations will know this is the spot to which the first white man came and laid claim to the western prairies. I hope the minister will take note of this particular site. My people are very much concerned about it. As a matter of fact, so far as historical sites are concerned this is the only request I have to make.
In closing, Mr. Chairman, I should like to direct a question, through you, to the minister concerning the highway through Riding Mountain national park. I do not know whether this subject should be dealt with under this item or under item 285.


Mr. Dinsdale:: Either one.


J. Nicholas (Nick) Mandziuk: Then I shall deal with it under item 285.


Mr. McCleave:: I have a few brief remarks with regard to what I described the other day as the shining jewel in the historical part of the empire of the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources. This concerns the Halifax citadel, easily the most popular historical site in Canada, at least from the standpoint of visitors.
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Northern Affairs
I have two problems in relation thereto. First, there is some complaint that the noon gun now being fired from citadel hill, a gun which has been fired for well over a century, is now housed in a building which one editorial writer at least likens to an old barn. It is to be hoped that before the tourist season is upon us some steps can be taken to bring the gun out into the open. I can assure the minister that the men who handle this weapon in Halifax are quite accustomed to the elements and will not mind the two or three days of the year when some fog or rain may be about.
The other problem, sir, is that the gun being fired now is a rather modern weapon. There are in that area, I am told, several 24-pounders which were used back in 1812. It might be a fitting historical note if one of these old pieces were to be found and placed in operation. I commend both these problems to, I am sure, the sympathetic consideration of the minister.


Mr. Smith (Calgary South):: I should like to say a word or two to the minister about national parks policy. If it should be in any way construed that in so doing I am saying something unkind to him, I hope that, he will understand I am suggesting that it is time to take a new look at our general policy for parks. I would like to make it clear that in no way should it be inferred that I am criticizing the officials who have the responsibility of administering the National Parks Act, who for the most part, as I am sure all hon. members agree, are a dedicated group of civil servants. They have a very difficult time in carrying out the administration of an act which I suggest in its concept is somewhat impractical and to some degree outdated.
I rise on this occasion because I do not think there is a greater number of individual problems brought to my attention, not just by the people within my own constituency but from many areas, than those which relate to the difficulties in respect of national parks and their administration. I want to say to the minister that I think we all appreciate the fact that he, perhaps more than any of the gentlemen who have held this office save his immediate predecessor, has shown a great deal of interest in improving the situation. It is because of this that I am taking advantage of this time to make suggestions to him.
May I first of all read very briefly the first principle of the National Parks Act, which states that the parks are hereby dedicated to the people of Canada for their benefit, education and enjoyment, subject to the provisions of this act and the regulations; and such

Supply-Northern Affairs parks shall be so maintained and made use of as to leave them unimpaired for the enjoyment of future generations.
Now, in this rather colorful and interesting language we find the first difficulty. In fact this language produces a conflict between those people whom we might generally describe as conservationists, those people who would like to see the parks kept in their natural, raw state, and the large body of people who wish to use the parks for recreational purposes. I have a copy of a speech which the minister delivered at Jasper park, and he points out that the parks are, in fact, living museums of nature. Of course, we all agree with that statement. He went on further to say that they are to be maintained so as to leave them unimpaired for the enjoyment of future generations.
Having said this, he points out the great advantages of recreation, and then said that artificial recreational facilities cannot be permitted to develop to the point where they compete with the natural attractions that draw visitors to the parks. We certainly say amen to that. This statement however points out a contradiction which makes the administration of the parks extremely difficult for the officials, because how does one decide what is too much park development? Where do you draw the line? How do you write such a line of demarcation into legislation?
This, of course, is a never ending problem with which we are faced, and upon which the Crawford report comments. In fact the Crawford report states that all of us accept the fact there has to be some development. In the opening statement the report dealing with controls describes the element by which we determine how much is enough in terms of park development. This opening statement acknowledges:
That if there are to be visitors to the parks, then the parks cannot remain as examples of completely unspoiled nature.
In other words if we are to use the parks, if we are to have people coming from many other areas, and thus benefit our tourist trade, then we have to expect some development. If we are going to encourage people to come into our parks, especially when they are competing with other areas for the tourist dollar, then we are going to have to provide facilities which will persuade them to come back again. If we are going to promote international ski competitors throughout the world to come, we are going to have to provide facilities. If we are going to ask people to come and bring their youngsters and enjoy the natural scenic beauty of the parks, then I suggest once again we are going to have to provide more facilities for these youngsters and for the adults themselves.

I am sure hon. members can recall an alleged statement of one of our colleagues to the effect that there is not very much for honeymooners to do in one particular park in Canada. I think basically his remark was correct. I am only sorry he put this one particular group of people in this category. I argue that we can provide a great many more facilities in terms of amusement without destroying the basic concept of the parks. It is because of this I am going to suggest how we might approach the problem.
I do not for a moment want any enthusiastic conservationist to jump up and suggest that I am going to argue that we turn the parks into Coney islands, that we clutter them up with too many facilities and too many bright lights or that we destroy the natural qualities. No, Mr. Chairman; I would oppose that procedure just as much as anyone else However, I suggest that the line must be drawn. I suggest that we might take one of two courses, either by zoning the park areas, and permit a program of orderly development, and then keep the balance of the parks in their natural state.
After all, we have 42,000 square miles of parks. That is a fairly substantial area. Many of the townsites could be still further improved without in any way destroying the natural qualities of the surrounding areas. In fact if you zone many of these parks

and the ones I am most familiar with are Banff and Lake Louise-you have natural geographical divisions in which these boundaries could be readily recognized, and you would not then have this conflict with the conservationist who wished to keep the outlying areas, as I have said, in their natural state. Let me say that I would then support the conversationist on this principle. In fact I would not even permit the extension of some of the developments that have taken place in many areas which could be kept in their native state, after we had established expanded recreational areas properly zoned.
I go back to the point I made initially, namely that in those areas which we have zoned for the development of townsites, I think we are being entirely too restrictive with regard to what is permitted, and the basis on which we are prepared to allow the construction of the particular facilities.
I suggest that there is a second alternative. The first one I mentioned is by a zoning principal. The second alternative is that we might be able to carry out a grading of parks themselves; that is to say, park A in a particular province could be termed a nature museum, as the minister has described. Park B could be developed for additional recreational facilities, but not to the extent where we are going to have vast

masses of people crawling all over the place and making it literally, as I have said previously, a Coney island, but still providing more facilities than we provide now. Perhaps there could be a further grade of parks. In this case we could have a clearly defined policy and not attempt to satisfy all sides of the argument because, I suggest, we are not now really satisfying any argument.
I raise this matter, Mr. Chairman, for an obvious reason. First of all I think we need to review our general concept of the park policy approach in terms of the way in which the act is written. More specifically, however, may I say this. This house is, of course, aware that Banff has been selected as the Canadian site to hold the 1968 winter games, and here we are going to have these conflicts brought into perspective when we ask the park officials to carry out a development program in order to assist us to secure the games, I am sure will offend the sensibilities of some of our officials who believe that the parks must be kept in their natural state, and we therefore have the conflict all over again.
I wish to say that we have had nothing but absolute co-operation from them up to this point, and perhaps my fears are not well founded. However, I am making this suggestion in order to avoid any possibility of difficulty. Surely we can recognize that in Banff, as an example, we already have invested some $96 million. If we are going to use that $96 million to the extent that the government of that day expected the return should be in relation to the people who would enjoy it. We must remember that these facilities, in terms of the amount I have mentioned, really are open for a season of only some three months in terms of even a quarter to half of their potential capacity, and that for the balance of the year the park is relatively vacant.
Our initial concept of bringing the games to Banff was to make Banff more than a one season proposition; to utilize the slopes and the facilities that were there to make it the outstanding winter attraction certainly of Canada if not of the North American continent. This does not mean that we need to deface to any extent what nature has made so beautiful in this area. What it in effect is asking is that we have from the parks officials and in particular from the minister some understanding of the difficulty we shall have if the present regulations continue. We shall necessarily be obliged to construct certain buildings. Obviously you are going to have to remove some trees in order to complete one or two of the jumps or downhill runs. All this is going to require a great deal of co-operation. For this reason I suggest that
Supply-Northern Affairs here is an opportunity for us to carry out one of the alternatives I have mentioned, either in terms of grading Banff as a national park or in zoning a particular area of it.
I would just close with this thought, Mr. Chairman. I have said I have every sympathy with those who wish to enjoy the vast areas that have been set aside in Canada for national parks. I myself, perhaps, would take the view of the conservationists more than the advantage that may come through the recreational facilities. But I see no conflict if the suggestion I have made is followed to any extent. If it is not followed, however, the present situation will continue; and as I suggested at the outset, I think the present situation really does not satisfy either argument.
Before taking my seat may I just say this to the minister. Through his parks department and through the Crawford report he has made a comprehensive examination of the relationship of the people within the parks area, the residents of the parks, to the government of Canada and to the people of Canada as a whole. I think for the most part the residents who live within the parks are not unhappy with the basic conclusions which Mr. Crawford reached, in which he states that they have never asked for any real form of self-government. It is recognized that the government of the day must have control over the vast sums of money spent by the federal treasury on the national parks. On the other hand there are two recommendations made suggesting a far closer liaison with the occupants of the park, and I think this is something on which we can still improve considerably.
I think in replying the minister might indicate to the committee what has been done in response to the suggestion that a line of communication be established between the elected bodies within the parks and the departmental officials carrying out the joint responsibilities; whether or not the conference suggested has been held; whether there has been collaboration on mutual problems; whether senior officials have visited the area, and so on; whether these recommendations suggested in the Crawford report have been carried out.
Finally I would ask, in terms of the whole problem, if when he replies the minister would be kind enough to indicate whether it is possible, in order to assist Banff in getting the 1968 Olympic games, to set up a committee to work with the Calgary Olympic organization so we could discuss many of the related problems we shall have prior to presenting the brief before the international Olympic board in 1963.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Before the hon. gentleman takes his seat I wonder whether I could ask
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Supply-Northern Affairs him a question. Can the hon. gentleman elaborate at all on those incentives to honey-mooners to which he referred at the beginning of his remarks?


Arthur Smith: I am sorry, but I did not hear the question. Will the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate repeat it?


John Whitney Pickersgill: I asked whether the hon. gentleman would care to elaborate on those incentives for honeymooners in national parks to which he referred earlier.


Arthur Smith: Mr. Chairman, as has happened in the past, of course, the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate was not paying attention. I was quoting a remark made by one of our colleagues, and I think if the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate comes out to Banff national park he will understand something of the amenities that are there for all of us.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Chairman, could I ask the hon. member a question. Is it not correct that he expanded fully on this theme in committee during consideration of the estimates of the tourist publicity bureau?


Arthur Smith: Mr. Chairman, if the question was whether I expanded on this matter before, the answer is no.


Mr. Muir (Lisgar):: Mr. Chairman, the other day when I asked the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources to consider preserving the home of Nellie McClung in Manitou as a national historic site, the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate made what I consider a rather facetious remark. He said he was glad I had proposed the name of a prominent Liberal as a national memorial.


John Whitney Pickersgill: That was sincere.


George Robson Muir: The hon. member says that was sincere. I agree, of course, that there have been some Liberals, however scarce, down through the years who merit national recognition. In proposing Nellie Mc-Clung's home as a national historic site I had no political motive in mind. As a result of this facetious interruption I failed to obtain an answer from the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources, and I ask that the minister give consideration to this proposal.


The Chairman:: I must indicate to the hon. member that this question could be dealt with under item No. 285 later on.


Mr. Brunsden:: Mr. Chairman, as an Albertan and a former Calgarian, and one who knows the park at Banff very intimately, I 

would like to associate myself with everything that has been said by the hon. member for Calgary South. I believe wholeheartedly that on the eastern slopes of the Rocky mountains we have the most magnificent scenery and the most magnificent natural advantages for all types of winter sports to be found in any part of the world.
Let me say this. I shall be brief, and I direct these remarks to the minister. There is, sir, a passing of time. We are moving from the man-hour days to the days of automation, and we are extremely anxious in our particular section of the province, which is the southeast corner of Alberta, to preserve some of the machines of yesterday, the tools of yesterday, the products of man-hours of yesterday, and compare these with those which are today produced by machines.
I respectfully suggest to the minister- and he will receive a formal request from our local agencies-that there should be created across this country, as there is in Saskatoon with respect to farm machinery, facilities for the preservation of the lore of yesterday, and the day before yesterday, in museums across the country. In our part of the province we have very, very great traditions. The words "Medicine Hat" mean the throwing of a hat by a medicine man across a river. That lore should be preserved. We have the lore of the early days of grain milling in Medicine Hat. We have the days of the very early rudimentary implements. We have the days of hand tools. Today these things are passing.
Young people of today-and there are many of them in the galleries-will never know of these things unless we preserve them. I suggest that museums across the country-I am speaking particularly of my own area-would be of great benefit for the preservation of the history of Canada 50 years from now.


Henry Frank Jones: Mr. Chairman, I think it would be of considerable interest to the people of Saskatchewan if the minister, when he replies would outline the general developments which are taking place at Waskesiu park and which have already taken place since last year's estimates were considered, and would also bring the public up to date on the developments at Emma lake following the completion of the dam there.
During the course of the summer we hope the minister will be able to visit Waskesiu. A great many Saskatoon people go to Waskesiu, as do people from other parts of Saskatchewan, and they regard it almost as their park.
I am sure if the minister visited this park and talked to the people on the park grounds they would be very pleased to tell him of their problems, their plans, their hopes for the

future development of this major park in Saskatchewan. I am sure the minister would find it very pleasant and delightful to walk around and meet the people there. He would get to know their problems in this way. I hope when the minister makes his reply he will be able to include within his remarks an acceptance of this invitation made on behalf of the people of Saskatchewan.


Mr. Bigg:: Mr. Chairman, at this point in the discussion of the administration of the parks I should also like to associate myself with the remarks of the hon. member for Calgary South who said that a review of the National Parks Act is long over due. The Wood Buffalo national park is about 90 per cent within my constituency of Athabasca. When it comes to developing timber and prospecting in the Wood Buffalo park, because of the regulations in the act the minister's department is unable to take a realistic approach to matters affecting that park. These regulations require changes to make orderly development possible.
I am very pleased to see that appropriations have been made for putting a road in there, but that subject will come up in another debate. Under the administration item I think I am on safe ground in mentioning the hiring of summer labour. At this time, when there are literally thousands of high school and university students coming out of school and seeking employment, it is going to be very hard to place them in jobs unless we can expand several of our government departments in order to handle this type of labour. Most of these young people are high in intelligence and book learning but they lack experience in any of the skilled trades. By working in the parks they could improve their health, travel across the country and get to know it, get out into the fresh air, meet young people from other parts of Canada, and earn a few dollars to help them get through school and, after getting through school, to university. Today the family income is strained. Taxes are high and employment is relatively low. These young people, not wishing to be a burden on their families, are often forced to leave school, and then they just add to the unskilled labour force.
I implore the minister to use all his influence with the government to obtain a much larger appropriation for summer labour. I suggest that perhaps his department should co-operate with the provincial departments of health and the provincial education authorities to put summer employment on some sort of a merit basis so high school and university students could get an opportunity to work in our parks and on historic sites. If they 90205-6-292
Supply-Northern Affairs are short of work in these parks we could undertake such projects as beautifying the right of way along the trans-Canada highway and improving the right of way along the Canadian National Railways.
If this work does not come directly under the minister's department I suggest that suitable arrangements could be made, because today we require close liaison between all departments of government. I should like to see the minister call in his colleagues the Minister of Labour, the minister of health and the Minister of Transport to find out what work has to be done in connection with these other departments. I know the whole country would be pleased to see these young people go to work as soon as they are out of school and earn the dollars which are greatly needed to help them this fall.


Mr. Payne:: I should like to pass along through the hon. member for Calgary South congratulations and best wishes from the people of the Garibaldi area on the recent honour conferred on Banff national park in being chosen as Canada's candidate for an Olympic site. We wish them every success. We know full well that the hospitality of Calgary and Banff will be developed to its highest point. It is a hospitality which is already widely renowned throughout our land. We trust we may join with them in attending the Olympic winter games when they occur. We are sure this will be a fitting event to cap the celebration of Canada's centennial year. If assistance is required, we would like to offer it in any way we can.
Speaking more specifically of that beautiful coastal and mountain region known as the Garibaldi area in my riding-perhaps it is now even better known as a result of its recent competition for selection as a winter Olympic site-there are a few words, maybe words of suggestion, that I might be permitted to pass along to the minister at this time. As we are well aware, the area to which I have referred is provincial crown land and is held by the government of British Columbia as a forestry reserve. Frankly, we from the Garibaldi region together, I think, with a high proportion of those from the lower mainland of British Columbia, feel the time has come when the shadow boxing, the sparring and certain of the other interesting but futile experiences of the past could well be forgotten. The time has come when another approach should be made by the minister and his department to the government of British Columbia in a manner offering full co-operation.
The area as now delineated, known as Garibaldi park, includes much land which does

Supply-Northern Affairs not fit the requirements for park development; a rather large section is a valuable forestry reserve which should best be used in the commercial operations of forestry. I feel that a broader view, an attitude of give and take, would do a great deal to make the utility and beauty of Garibaldi park available to the public of Canada and to the vast numbers of United States tourists who visit the Pacific coast region during both winter and summer months.
One of the first suggestions I would make is that a study be undertaken of the area involved, including those great reaches which stretch into the riding of my colleague the hon. member for Fraser Valley, to see whether these might be returned to the province for use in the forest industry. A little give and take right now on such matters as park boundaries could bring into being a practical, long range development which would do much to meet the needs of the congested lower mainland and contribute in a major way to earning dollars through the tourist industry.
There is one other point I should like to make with respect to Garibaldi park. Only on Canada's Pacific coast are the people of this nation denied the facilities of a national park. I think this is something which might well be kept in mind. I plead again with the minister, and I plead likewise with the officials of the government of British Columbia, to reenter negotiations in connection with the development of Garibaldi park as a co-operative effort, recognizing the need and usefulness of developing this great alpine area.
Before I resume my seat I should like to ask the minister whether in his reply he would care to comment on certain observations made by his predecessor before the committee on mines, forests and waters two years ago, when the present Minister of Agriculture indicated that studies were under way to bring into being a new program designed for the recreational development of certain areas such as the one I am now discussing. The thought developed at that time, before the committee was that certain limitations existed in the National Parks Act which the minister felt did not entirely meet the needs of development not only in the area of Garibaldi but in other areas of Canada as well.
In winding up my remarks I would do two things. I would ask the minister to say something respecting the progress of discussions regarding the creation and development of these recreational areas in Canada. Second, I should like to repeat the request, supported, I am sure, by people throughout the lower mainland of British Columbia, that another approach be made to the government of the province of British Columbia in a spirit of


co-operation, in a final effort to bring to Canada and, certainly, to the people of my province the fruits and benefits of Garibaldi park, which is so badly needed at this time.


Mr. Stewart:: I have no intention at this time of holding up the passage of the minister's estimates but I think I would be very remiss if I did not bring to the attention of the minister and of this committee a need which arises in my constituency.
I wish first of all to congratulate the minister on his appointment. This has been my first opportunity of doing so. Through you, Mr. Chairman, I should like to say to him that he brings to his post integrity, honesty and a vision of Canada as it might be and should be in the future. I think the people of Canada can be justly proud of the contribution he has made, and I am sure we all look forward with great assurance to his making a still greater contribution.
We have heard from the far east and the far west as well as from the middle west about national parks and historic sites. If antiquity lends any priority, I should like to tell the hon. members of this house that on a little island in the St. Croix river, in the year 1604, before the west was even heard of or known, Champlain and a small group of hardy settlers spent their first winter in this country, and then moved on to Annapolis Royal to establish the first white settlement on the North American continent. This little island in the river which forms the boundary line between the province of New Brunswick and the great American republic to the south is called Docket's island. It became very important when our good friends to the south attempted later to establish that the "island" in the river mentioned in the old treaty referred to the St. John river and not the St. Croix. However, the discovery of human bones on Docket's island, left from Champlain's voyage, established for all time that the boundary river referred to in the original treaty was the St. Croix. That area has had very important historical significance in the development of the maritime area.
This government has also seen fit to cooperate with the government of the province of New Brunswick in the building of a bridge connecting the state of Maine with the island of Campobello, which will bring an influx of residents and tourists to the area. There is also, in various stages of development, an investigation into the Passamaquoddy development project. I should like to refer the minister particularly to the fact that on this island of Campobello was one of the first settled areas in the maritimes, and the home of the late Franklin Delano Roosevelt

is located there. I am sure all hon. members will readily recall the part that late president played during the hectic days of world war II. I feel, as I am sure all my constituents do, that the acquisition and development of this home and the formation of an historical site there would be a great attraction for tourists to the southwestern part of New Brunswick.
I commend these matters to the attention of the minister, realizing that he is anxious to develop all parts of Canada, but would assure him that in my constituency we have one of the most important locations for the development of an historical site which, if developed, would serve as an historical monument for all time.


Mr. Broome:: Mr. Chairman, I would like to lend my support to the remarks of the hon. member for Coast-Capilano regarding the advantage which would accrue from the establishment of a national park on the Pacific coast. I remind the minister that this is the only area in Canada where there is not a national park. I believe we should have one there.
I particularly draw the minister's attention to certain matters regarding the development of national historic sites. This subject occupies some 12 lines in the annual report of this branch, but it seems to me that perhaps a bit more emphasis should be given to the development of these historic sites. For instance, a bridge is being built over the Fraser canyon at Alexandria, to be called the Alexandria bridge. The federal government is contributing 90 per cent of the cost of constructing this bridge. At the west end of the old bridge there is a stone cairn erected to the memory of the royal engineers who built the Cariboo road. Many times I have seen tourists stop to read the inscription on this cairn. I am wondering whether, in the development of the new bridge, this cairn will be left to disintegrate at its present location.
I suggest that the preservation of historic sites must be a responsibility of the federal government, although I am not denying that this is the responsibility of governments at all levels as well.
Mr. Chairman, I have in my hand a full page advertisement which appeared in the Montreal Gazette of May 5, 1961 and I would like to read the article appearing there under the heading "Renaissance at Recollet". That article reads as follows:
The new Toronto-Dominion bank building, rising at the corner of St. James and McGill streets, has its foundations deep in the historical soil of old Montreal.
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Supply-Northern Affairs
Facing on St. James street and reaching back along McGill to Notre Dame street, the building occupies a site within the ancient limits of "the city within the walls".
The Recollet gate, which was the western gateway to Montreal, stood where Notre Dame and McGill streets now join. This was the gateway of the explorers, the missionaries, the soldiers, the traders. It was the gateway to history.
The gate, and the monastery that gave it its name, have long since been swallowed by time and progress.
Progress is represented by great rectangular buildings of glass and aluminum and, while they are necessary, it is my opinion that steps should be taken to protect anything which is of value in an historical or traditional sense. There exists in Vancouver an old vessel named the St. Roch, which is rotting because its maintenance is beyond the financial capacity of the city. The city did build a maritime museum as a centennial project, and it was suggested that the St. Roch should be part of that museum. I am wondering whether the St. Roch is an important part of our national fabric. If so, should one set a price on this history?
It seems to me there is room, within the field this branch of the department occupies, for expansion and for greater and wider thinking directed toward the preservation of those historic items of importance to Canada. I suggest that the minister and the officials of his department are the custodians and caretakers of these historic items and sites for our future generations, and that if an historic item is destroyed it can never be replaced no matter how much money is spent in the attempt.
I suggest, therefore, that his officials give consideration to preserving the St. Roch as an historic vessel, occupying a place in our history, in the same way that the British people have done in respect to Nelson's flagship. I do not suggest that the St. Roch occupies a similar position of importance, but when viewed within the framework of the relatively short length of this nation's history, this vessel has played an historic part in the development of the north and surely should be considered as such and perpetuated for generations to come.
(Translation):


Mr. Ricard:: Mr. Chairman, as you know, I have the honour of representing in this house the riding where you were born. That is why I am sure you will welcome my remarks, but I shall be brief.
You and I have learned, from our earliest childhood, the glorious feats of arms of our ancestors in the St. Hyacinthe area during the troubles of 1837.
We have learned too that they took an active part in the development of French
4616	HOUSE OF
Supply-Northern Affairs civilization in Canada. You and I, as well as all those who had the opportunity of studying Canadian history, have learned the full meaning of the word native land, and we have learned to love our country.
In French Canada, gallant men have given their lives because they believed in their rights. Suffice it to recall a few names: Nelson, Chenier, Papineau, and many others who have contributed to reveal the valour of the French Canadian race.
During the years 1837 and 1838, troubles temporarily spread discord between the two races which make up Canada today. Never has there been as many people as there are today of our racial allegiance, who appreciate responsible government.
Alas, no trace of these glorious feats of arms performed by these great Canadians remains in the villages of Saint-Denis, Saint-Charles, Saint-Antoine, Saint-Marc and Saint-Eustache.
I would therefore ask the minister to have at least a monument erected in their honour to commemorate their patriotism and show future generations that it is worthwhile to have faith in one's convictions.
I am thinking at the moment, Mr. Chairman, of the coming generations. It is essential that they be taught that any set of values must be based on firm beliefs.
I hope that the minister will pay particular attention to my suggestion.
Together with the people I have the honour to represent here, I will be grateful to him to commemorate in stone the achievements of our ancestors; future generations will then have a further reason to love their country and to strive for good.
(Text):


Mr. Taylor:: Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Vancouver South spoke for a few moments about the St. Roch. I should like to point out that this very famous vessel is berthed in my area. I hope a way will be found whereby that vessel can be saved. It needs extensive repairs, as has been pointed out. I understand that shortly the city of Vancouver will request the federal government to join with the city and perhaps with the province in some arrangement to share the cost. Certainly that vessel must not be destroyed, and must not be allowed to rot. It is just too famous a vessel to meet that fate. It is named after a Quebec town. It has the word "Ottawa" written on the bow and on the stern, and the classic letters "R.C.M.P." at various places.
I should like to turn for a few minutes to the matter of the national parks. First of all, I must indicate at the start just how disappointed we were to find that the coast


area was not chosen as the Canadian site for the winter Olympics of 1968. We in that area cannot hide that disappointment, because we did everything within our power to bring to the attention of the Canadian Olympic Association the great advantages of developing either Manning or Garibaldi park. We look forward now to giving strong support to the Calgary and Banff entry. We feel sure that excellent committee will begin to set the stage for the finest winter Olympics ever held.
I listened with a great deal of interest to what the hon. member for Calgary South had to say. I share his views, and I appreciate the problems to which he has referred. It has been most rewarding for the Garibaldi association to kind of square off with the very healthy organization at Calgary. The hon. member for Calgary South always seems to back a winning horse. We found the competition most keen, but it was exceedingly healthy. Therefore we look forward to visiting the Banff area once development takes place there.
This of course gives rise to another problem which was referred to by the hon. member for Calgary South. There must be strong co-operation by the parks department. My family was in that area at Christmas time. We found, for example, that trees could not be cut at the base of the sedan chair lift because apparently the park officials did not want the public to know that there was in fact a chair lift in that area. We stayed at the Post hotel, which does lack some facilities of a first-class hotel. I do not think we are ever going to be able to get United States tourists to come to that area unless we come up with first class hotels and motels in that locality.
I do not in any way wish to urge the authorities to serve liquor in those hotels, but I simply say that today's tourists do seem to want to be able to buy liquor, and at the present time you cannot buy a drink at the Post hotel. I would ask the minister through you, Mr. Chairman, to have his officials look into the matter, because we in the coast area are frankly sick and tired of being obliged to go to United States resorts, particularly when in British Columbia and Alberta we have some of the finest ski areas in the world. So we urge that the officials of the minister's department look into these matters carefully and pay particular attention to what I thought was a most reasonable suggestion concerning the zoning of park areas in order that the conservationists may be happy, and those who want to have a place of recreation can be satisfied. I felt that was one of the really fine suggestions made during this debate this afternoon.

I was at Squaw Valley, Mr. Chairman. I thought the show was a remarkable one. It was a thrilling sight to see the representatives of the nations of the world gathered in that area, an area which had been developed within a period of four years. Reports indicate now that Squaw Valley will be enlarged. The latest report concludes by saying that all people agree on one thing more, that Squaw Valley's future is bright. The report indicates that dormitories are being operated and already this winter have been completely filled during the week ends. Under another lease agreement the ice skating arena has been in almost constant public use since the closing of the games. The Olympic centre cafeteria and recreation hall is now open to the visiting public for meals and evening dancing.
Our position, Mr. Chairman, is that we from the coast area are now supporting the Banff and Calgary group to the utmost. As I have indicated before, we want to see a magnificent development there, an area which will entice all the people from the coast and from the states of Oregon, California, Washington and Colorado to come for a visit. We would like to feel that the Canadian Pacific will advertise in the Vancouver newspapers to encourage the young people to go up there. We would like to feel that the Canadian Pacific will provide special rates to the young people in order that they can get there. We would like to feel that, with the co-operation of the parks department, dormitories may be built in order that these young people can ski in the magnificent area at a moderate cost. We feel that all this is possible if there is a new policy adopted by the minister's department in respect of the development of recreational areas in the park.
I read with a great deal of interest a report by Mr. Jack McDowall, a copy of which appeared in one of the newspapers published in the Banff area. Mr. McDowall said this:
Now it must surely be evident that the present arrangement of the western parks is satisfying no one. The conservationists are dissatisfied because primeval nature is not being preserved. The tourist industry is being crippled, and resort operators in the parks are being maddened, by attempts to compromise with the conservationists. Commercial interests are annoyed because the main routes pass through the national parks, where there is difficulty in providing adequate service facilities. The skiers, in ever growing numbers, are becoming impatient at the lack of good Canadian ski resorts and are spending their dollars abroad. But, in fact, the National Parks Act gives the government plenty of power to rectify this situation.
When there are so many people in the lower mainland part of British Columbia interested in a fine development at Banff, we hope there will be a change of policy in order
Supply-Northern Affairs that there may be a proper development which will in turn satisfy all Canadians.
Then I wanted to refer briefly to an article which appeared in Time magazine, April 14, 1961, which quotes the Minister of Trade and Commerce. The minister is reported as saying:
"I have skied in a number of places in Europe and Canada, but this is the finest skiing I have had anywhere," said Hees amiably. "It's ridiculous for Canadians to be going to Aspen, Sun Valley and Squaw Valley when they have skiing like this at their back door."
The important part of the article follows, where a member of the parks department is reported to have said:
"Private interests naturally are always putting pressure on the national parks system. Hees was going along. He is quite uninformed. Draw a 200 mile circle around Banff, and see what population it takes in."
I say to you, Mr. Chairman, and through you to the minister that we will never be able to establish a proper winter Olympic site with that kind of attitude on the part of the parks department. The main burden of my remarks today is the hope, and it is the hope of all of us in the Vancouver area, that we do have the co-operation of the parks department in the staging of these winter events, and that they will be something of which Canadians will be proud.
I mentioned a few minutes ago that we were disappointed because we were not awarded the site in our area. The matter should not be dismissed at that point. I realize that we cannot be awarded a booby prize, but I hope the minister and his departmental officials will arrange an early meeting with the appropriate minister in British Columbia so we can settle this age old problem of the proper development of Garibaldi. I know that ever since the hon. member for Coast-Capilano came to the house he has been advocating the development of that area. I do hope the departmental officials will pay attention to what the hon. member has said, because he has suggested a reasonable compromise. I only hope that an early meeting can be brought about between the minister of northern affairs and the proper minister in the provincial cabinet.
I noticed a report in a Vancouver newspaper in November of 1960 which read as follows:
Recreations minister Earle C. Westwood Tuesday promised to promote early action by the province to free Garibaldi park for federal development.
Soon after the Banff area was chosen as the Canadian site for the winter Olympics, an editorial writer in a Vancouver newspaper had this to say:
The time is ripe for powerful Ottawa action to develop Garibaldi as a national park.

Supply-Northern Affairs
The most promising federal approach would seem to be to offer a specific development plan, saying for example how many dollars would be spent in the first five years of development.
Such a plan would make it difficult for the provincial government to go on evading, as it has for seven years, federal offers to take over Garibaldi. Only last month provincial recreations minister Westwood said B.C. would never turn over Garibaldi to Ottawa without a definite federal development plan.
In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, may I say that the minister and the members of the house must know of the tremendous effort made by the Garibaldi Olympic development association to have the site of the winter Olympics established in the coast area. I hope that enthusiasm which is there will be harnessed and that we can get on with the early development of this park. Summer is approaching, and of course it will be necessary, now that the snow is gone, to get the area cleared in order that we may get skiers up into the Garibaldi area next year. It is for this reason that I strongly urge the minister to have an early meeting with the provincial authorities.


Mr. Regnier:: I was speaking the other day in connection with the oldest building we have in western Canada, in the constituency of St. Boniface. I have not heard any comment from the minister in regard to this project. I know it has been studied for many years now by his department. I think the constituents of St. Boniface would now like to have some assurance with regard to the maintenance of this building as a museum.


Jacques Flynn: May I indicate to hon. members who have any comments or remarks to make in connection with historic sites and monuments that they might defer them until we reach items 284 and 285. We are at present on item 283, which deals with the national parks branch administration.


Laurier Arthur Régnier: I have now said all I wanted to say.


Jacques Flynn: I well realize that fact. I was not directing my remarks to the hon. member but rather to some other prospective speakers.


Mr. McFarlane:: I just want to add a few words to what has already been said here this afternoon. In my own area we have parts of three national parks. I refer to Glacier national park, Yoho national park, and Kootenay national park. In recent years we have had a great deal of development going on in the parks. However, we feel that this development can be accelerated by good access roads to the area. Over a period of years pressure has been brought on various governments to improve the access roads into these parks. I should like to recommend to the


minister that he give consideration to including a road from Kindersley through my own area of Cranbrook to Kimberley and through the lake Windermere valley to the three parks I have mentioned.
I also suggest that the minister should give some consideration to creating some new parks in British Columbia so we may decentralize some of our present tourist industry. I believe that in many of our parks the accommodations are crowded during the summer months and they are unable to handle all the tourist traffic that is coming into the various segregated areas. I note by the estimates that endless improvements have been made to 16 parks in Canada. However, no mention has been made of any development for the future.
I suggest to the minister that some consideration be given to developing the Cedar valley area in the Fernie district. As I believe you will know, Mr. Chairman, this area put in for the Olympic games, but we were unsuccessful in obtaining them for the district. I have had considerable correspondence with the minister. In fact I have here a letter to the minister from our parks association in that area requesting that this consideration be given. I should just like to quote part of the letter addressed to Hon. Walter Dinsdale, Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources:
-we have equally as attractive an area at Fernie without any such facilities. We are presently beginning to get a campaign going to get a new swimming pool, and hope to hear more about a recreational grant to be given by the province of British Columbia-
That is for the development of this area. Such a development will have a twofold effect on the district of East Kootenay. First it will help to stabilize the economy of the Fernie area. As you are aware, Mr. Chairman, the coal mines in the district closed down some two years ago. Since that time we have followed all leads to bring industry there to have the area developed in order to stabilize the economy.
Second, the area has a wonderful outlook for development as a park and conservation area. In addition, many areas now included in your national parks have reached the saturation point, as is the case in parts of the three national parks which are in my own area. I realize that extension in some parts has reached the limit, and I believe our only salvation is to create more parks in British Columbia to help the economy of all parts of the province, and to assist in bringing tourists to the southern section of the province.
There is just one more point I wish to bring to the attention of the minister. I wrote to the minister some time ago about establishing forestry camps for students during the

summer months. This is a situation that I think should receive some consideration from the minister. His reply read in part as follows:
No special forestry camps have been operated by the national parks service since 1939, when a number of such camps were established in the parks under the national forestry program. The national parks service, however, does employ students over 18 years of age on various forestry, trail construction and maintenance, and engineering projects in the national parks each summer. The number of students employed on such work is not fixed but varies with the requirements for maintenance and development work in the individual parks in any year.
I would ask the minister to give consideration first to reducing the age limit from 18 years to 17 years. Out in western Canada our students grow up very quickly, and a lad 17 years old is just as capable of doing a man's work as a lad 18 or 19 years old. I therefore feel we have a point there. It would certainly be apreciated by me if the minister would give our 17-year olds consideration. I noticed a number of students in the gallery today. There is no doubt that a good many students will be looking forward to this coming summer. I think it would be a wonderful move on the part of the parks department to create camps that would get the boys out of the city in the summer months and give them a good healthy education with regard to the administration and the upkeep of our national parks.
There is just one other point. I wish to express my congratulations to the Calgary Olympic development association on obtaining the Olympic games, or at least obtaining consideration, because I believe the final decision will not be made until 1963. As far as the Canadian Olympic committee is concerned, Calgary has been approved as the site for the Olympic games, and I should like to offer my congratulations. I am sure all the residents of East Kootenay would be more than pleased to contribute their share in order to make the Olympic games a success in the event that they should come to this area.


Mr. Clancy:: I should like to take a few minutes to speak on historic sites under item 283. Personally I think our historic sites and monuments in Canada are a national disgrace. You flash by on the highway and you see a rather rustic sign, two posts and two garbage cans, and when you pull in from the highway you cannot read the sign anyway.
However, I should like to get back to a local problem, and I wish to speak about old Fort Pelly. In these remarks I should like to associate myself with the hon. member for Mackenzie. Two years ago old Fort Pelly was recognized as an historic monument, but that was where it ended. I should like to point out to the committee that old Fort Pelly
Supply-Northern Affairs was the boundary line between the Hudson's Bay Company on the upper Assiniboine and the Northwest Company from Montreal. Hendry first surveyed the site. The important thing about this is that it is an historic site and this is history in the making. This is a local problem, but it is history in the making. I would not claim there is anyone alive today who remembers the first log being laid at old Fort Pelly, but in the upper Assiniboine there are men who were born in that area, and there are a few left who opened up that country. I think this site is worthy of being preserved as a national monument.
I was very interested last year to learn that some of these historic sites were being preserved and restored under the winter works program. It am sure the local associations in this area and in the province would be quite willing to supply a great deal of the material if a bit of a lead were given by the particular section of the department that these matters come under. I would be willing to hazard the guess that it would not cost the federal government too much money. Just a little lead is needed, so why not make some of these projects part of the winter works program? I am sure the materials could be gathered locally and would be donated freely by the local people. It is just a matter of hiring and paying wages to a few men during the winter. We are losing a chance to pick up personal knowledge, because the day is fast approaching when these men will all be dead.
We have a Canada Council which spends millions of dollars bringing European culture to this country. I appreciate that, having been born on the prairies, where we had none. But I do think a little bit of money could be spent in preserving a portion of our own Canadian history.


Harold Edward Winch: Mr. Chairman, before the minister replies to all the advice that has been given him and all the questions that have been put to him I should like-I hope, without repetition-to add my words to those which have already been expressed by the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard and the hon. member for Coast-Capilano on this matter of Garibaldi.
I have had an interest in the development of this area for some 30 years. I have spoken on it year after year in the British Columbia legislature and year after year in this House of Commons. Unfortunately we do not appear to be making any progress and I think the time has come for all the shilly-shallying between the federal government and the prov-vince to come to a halt, for something definite to be proposed on the development of Garibaldi.
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I say this for very basic and fundamental reasons. I know that area. I have been over it by helicopter and I have hiked into it. I have spoken to authorities who understand the situation of that area, and I say without fear of honest contradiction that under planned development Garibaldi can be a year round recreational resort unparalleled anywhere on the North American continent. In the spring and early summer I have seen there the alpine flora and fauna which world botanists have told me cannot be found in this abundance anywhere else in North America. I know its lakes and terrain. We have already had a report on its potentialities as a winter resort.
Where is Garibaldi located: It is in an area which, with properly developed roads, is within one and a half or two hours of the lower mainland of Vancouver, which contains approximately one million of the population of British Columbia. It is within easy reach not only of that one million population in the lower mainland of British Columbia, in the Vancouver area, but it is within two to five hours' journey of two and a half million people in the United States just below our border. In the Pacific coast area of Washington, Oregon and British Columbia everybody has heard of Mount Baker but Mount Baker, known as it is and used as it is, cannot touch the potentialities of Garibaldi.
What is the situation at the present moment? There is already a road under construction which is completed on gravel and mostly on hard pavement, which within a few months will be a first-class road from Vancouver to Squamish. From Squamish the road distance is very short into Garibaldi. Then we have the potentiality of the town of Haney. There are first class highways from Vancouver to Haney tying in with the trans-Canada highway and with the main United States north and south highways. Haney is at the foot of Garibaldi. The approach is there and it will not take very much to go from Haney, as the access from the south, to Garibaldi, or from Squamish on the northwestern end into Garibaldi. Here we have an area of Canada on our Pacific coast which is mighty important now and which is going to grow in importance as the economy of Canada develops and as we open up the Pacific coast.
There are already one million people living in the lower mainland of British Columbia, in Vancouver, and there are two and a half million people to the south of us; and right at our doorstep, I maintain, is the most magnificent potential all-round resort on the entire North American continent.
That is as it is now. Why has it not been developed? It is because it is owned in


the crown's name by the province of British Columbia. It is a reserve for park purposes, and no government has yet done anything about it except make promises. We have no national park area whatsoever on the Pacific coast. Therefore I think we are entitled to ask for serious consideration to be given this matter by the minister and the government.
Why has it not been developed? I think I can speak with a little bit of authority here, having been the leader of the opposition in the British Columbia legislature for 12 years before I came to this House of Commons. I think it is because, in particular, of the present government we have in British Columbia who should be most severely damned and condemned for their attitude. They have not yet exercised any preparation or considered the approach of the federal government, and that is the stumbling block. It is not because the government of British Columbia does not recognize the potentiality. It is not because the federal government does not recognize the potentiality. It is not because the federal government is not prepared to take it over and develop it as a national park. It is because of the potentiality of the natural resources. What there may be of a mineral nature nobody knows because this is a crown reserve, but we do know that we have there some of the finest mature, virgin timber in all British Columbia. I have been told that its value is in the neighbourhood of $60 million. That is the information given to me; I have no personal knowledge.
I think the government of British Columbia is stalling with regard to this matter because if the federal government takes over the area it will be on the basis that the resources go to the federal government. The government of British Columbia wishes to retain an interest in the forest resources and in the potential mineral resources. I think it is a crying shame that in 1961 we should still be in a position where because of the rigid attitude adopted by both sides the lower mainland area of British Columbia is stymied and cannot receive the benefit of what, I say again, would be the finest all-round resort and recreational area on the entire North American continent.
I know something about the government of British Columbia, coming as I do, from that province. In fact, I know a great deal about it because I was the first leader of the opposition against the present premier.
I know his stubbornness and his selfishness;
I know how he operates through expediency.
I think this question will not come to a head until the federal government puts the government of British Columbia on the spot.
I urge the government to put them right on the spot. Make a definite offer to take over

Garibaldi park as a national park. Give them at least an outline of the development that the federal government intends to proceed with and reach an understanding, a compromise if you like, with the province in connection with the resource developments that might take place. I say this in all sincerity and from a knowledge of the government of British Columbia. I speak, also, from a knowledge of Garibaldi park and what it would mean to the million people who now live in the British Columbia mainland area and more than two million potential visitors who live south of the forty ninth parallel and who would welcome the opportunity of coming to Canada after the development of Garibaldi.
This business of negotiating back and forth and getting nowhere because each side accused the other of responsibility of no progress being made, has gone far enough. Somebody has got to take a major step and because I have no hope of Premier Bennett taking it I am going to ask the minister if he and his department have the courage, or -might I use another term-the vision to put something down in writing as a definite proposition and let us see whether we can move forward in connection with the development of the Garibaldi area.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I should like to seek direction from the minister or from the Chair. I have one or two brief observations to make about sea birds, and I should like to know whether this is the correct item under which to make them or whether another item would be more appropriate.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I think item 290 would be the appropriate item.


Arthur Smith: I wonder if I might say a word in respect to the number of members who have been kind enough to congratulate the Calgary Olympic development association on the award of the site for the Canadian bid for the 1963 games. I should like to thank those hon. members, and hon. members collectively, who have offered support, because if we are to be successful we shall certainly need co-operation from the entire country, not from a few limited people. So I thank each individual who has offered support, because I feel that with all this support we shall be successful in 1963 in obtaining the games.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Before I make the few remarks I intend to make now, may I say that I think that hon. members of this committee might well take strong exception to being described as "limited people".
Would the minister, when he replies, give us the latest score on the battle of Stoney
Supply-Northern Affairs Creek in which his colleague the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration seems to be so persistently engaged?


Robert Jardine McCleave: Before we leave this item, perhaps a voice from the east coast might be heard in commendation of the St. Roch which made a historic voyage around the northern half of the continent. One of the terminal stops on this amazing trip was Halifax.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: We have had an interesting presentation this afternoon concerning historic sites and national parks. It is encouraging as we approach the observation of Canada's centennial to find that at long last Canadians from one end of the country to another are becoming more aware than ever before that Canada has an illustrious history. Not long ago there would have been very little interest in the preservation of our historic sites. I think that in the past two hours we have heard representations on the subject from almost every area of Canada-individual members presenting their claims on behalf of their respective constituencies for the consideration of historic sites in their own areas- sites, places and locations connected with the history and development of this country.
Speaking generally, I think it is only appropriate that I should remind hon. members that the function of this department in regard to historic sites is to consider those locations which may be regarded as having national significance. For this purpose a historic sites and monuments board has been constituted over a number of years. It is made up of representative historians from each province to consider various proposals from the standpoint of their national historic significance and who recommend to the minister and to the government on that basis the marking and suitable recognition of those sites.
Theirs is not the only historical interest in Canada. I am made aware of this by letters which come in continually from local historical groups. Right across the nation we have local groups in various communities; they gather together local committees to mark and preserve historic sites which are of local interest. I think I can say that each provincial government is now moving into the area of recognition of historic sites which can be regarded as of purely provincial significance, and are proceeding to preserve these as localized historic areas.
That is all I intend to say by way of general reference to historic sites. I shall come to my remarks in respect to the specific recommendations which have been made in just a moment or two, but before that I should perhaps make a general statement concerning national parks.
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This is another area in which the federal government has become increasingly active across the nation during recent years. Actually our national park program is one of the oldest government programs in this particular sphere, going back to the 1880's. A system of national parks has been developed down through the years, but up until world war II, development was not under particular pressure. Since the end of world war II however, with the advent of greater leisure time by reason of shorter working hours, and with the increasing mobility of the population by virtue of our improved highway systems resulting in a tremendously growing tourist industry, we have been placed in the position, in respect of our national parks system, where the pressure for development has been almost impossible to cope with. As an example of this I should perhaps mention the recorded attendance at two of our smaller parks. At the Cape Breton Highlands park in 1950, 107 campers attended. Last year, the number had increased to 24,400. This is an almost astronomical increase. At the Prince Edward Island park there were 183 campers in attendance in 1950, but in 1960 almost 30,000 campers attended. These tremendous increases have taken place in the short period of a decade.
Some reference was made this afternoon to national park policy. I should say it is quite true that national park policy has been under criticism from time to time in this house. It was my pleasure this week to meet my counterpart from the United States, secretary Udall, and we had discussions on the subject of national park development. I was interested to learn that very much the same difficulties and problems that we have in Canada are confronting those officials south of the border.
The hon. member for Calgary South pointed out the precise difficulties with which we are faced, when he made reference to the basic conflict in existing concepts in respect of national parks. National parks were originally developed to preserve wilderness areas in Canada, and to protect them from the incursions of urbanization.
The passage of time, increasing tourism, the challenge presented by increased leisure time, the growing use of parks, and the other influences to which I have referred, all have had a part in creating the great demand which now exists for the development of recreational parks. In the development of our national park system we have been faced with the limitations of the act, as a result of which it is not possible to meet all the rapidly growing demands for the establishment of recreational facilities within the
[Mr. Dinsdale.l

framework of our existing national park program. I think we must reconsider our whole approach to this problem. Creative activity has taken place at lower levels of government. In some instances, municipalities have made moves to meet this growing demand for the establishment of recreational parks. Some of the provincial governments have established a system of park areas designed exclusively to meet the demand for recreational areas.
I do not often have the opportunity to boast about my own province, but, by way of passing reference, I should like to indicate that the province of Manitoba has moved vigorously into this field in recent years, and already three major park areas have been set aside for this purpose. One such area is located north of the national park at Riding mountain in the Duck mountain area. This proposed park occupies a land area almost equal to that of our national park at Riding mountain. The terrain and topography, and facilities in terms of natural flora and fauna, are much the same as at Riding mountain park, but the park will be developed as a recreation park area rather than for the specific purpose of preserving it in its wilderness form. These are some ways by which the pressure on the national park development program can be relieved.
I realize that we have a special problem in the mountainous park areas such as at Banff and Jasper where permanent communities have been established without local forms of government, with the result that all matters pertaining to local government must be referred to the national parks department for consideration. This represents a very difficult, delicate and sensitive administrative problem. It was because of this that professor Crawford was assigned to study and make recommendations regarding the problems of local government in these park areas. There has been considerable discussion concerning the recommendations of the Crawford park report but a few of the non-controversial recommendations have already been implemented. I can assure the hon. member for Calgary South, as well as other hon. members who have spoken on this subject, that there will be no attempt to implement the more controversial aspects of that report without the closest possible consultation.


Harold Edward Winch: Mr. Chairman, could I ask the minister to address the microphone because, when he speaks directly to the member for Vancouver South, we in this corner, who are also interested in his remarks, are unable to hear.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Thank you for that suggestion.
I have just said that some of the non-controversial recommendations contained in that report have already been implemented, but that the more controversial ones would not be implemented without very close consultation. One of the recommendations contained in this report refers to the establishment of advisory councils in local communities, and I should say that we are encouraging this in every possible way. As a matter of fact, various officials have met with these advisory boards during the past month for the purpose of establishing closer co-operation and co-ordination, in an attempt to keep open the channels of communication which are so necessary to proper understanding. The deputy minister has met with the advisory councils at both Jasper and Banff, and I believe the director of the parks branch attended meetings with the three advisory councils from Banff, Lake Louise, and Jasper quite recently. During my visits to the park I have had the opportunity of meeting two of the advisory councils. I shall be making a trip to western Canada during this summer and it will be my intention at that time to hold meetings with these local groups in an attempt to establish the closest possible co-operation.
Specific reference was made this afternoon to the selection of Banff as the most suitable site for the winter Olympic games. I want to add my congratulations to the hon. members who were so active on behalf of this site and at the same time also to pay my respects to those who were promoting the interest of other parks such as Garibaldi, Manning and the other park areas which have been referred to. I must say they were most aggressive and most reasonable in their presentations. They presented their cases as best they knew how and, the choice having been made, they have demonstrated here this afternoon that they are good losers and are drawing together to support Banff as the Canadian site for the Olympic games.
As I see it, Mr. Chairman, there is no basic conflict in what would be involved at Banff and the necessary development that will have to take place should Canada make the final hurdle and be chosen as the country sponsoring the games in 1968. Actually-and this shows long term planning at its best-in the backs of the minds of those who have had responsibility for park planning over the years this has always been conceived as a possibility. It was for this reason that the ski runs at Banff were built to Olympic specifications. It is also for this reason that the civic centre, the construction of which will
Supply-Northern Affairs get under way during the current year, was also designed to meet Olympic standards.
In summing up these brief observations, then, Mr. Chairman, I think I can say that we are aware of the problem. We are fully aware of the pressures for recreational services and facilities to meet the demands of our own people as well as of the tourist industry.
As to the best way of meeting the demands, we have no definitive suggestions or plans at the moment. The hon. member for Calgary South has suggested perhaps a zoning or a categorizing of parks, such as parks for recreational purposes, wilderness areas and so forth. This trend is going forward, particularly on the provincial level, as I have demonstrated, where provincial governments are moving in to meet the demands for recreational facilities. But I can say that a great deal of thought is being given to meeting the needs, and we shall be doing everything possible within the framework of our national park program to meet the growing demands on facilities of this kind.
Several hon. members made reference to Garibaldi and suggested that the national parks branch of the federal government might move in now and develop this site which is regarded as highly suitable for a national park development. I can only say, Mr. Chairman, it is two years since the offer was made by this government. One of the basic requirements for development of a new national park is that the provincial government make the approach and indicate that it is willing to make available a suitable area of land that meets all the requirements of a national park development and turn it over to the federal authority free of any encumbrances. I assure hon. members who have spoken very strongly on behalf of Garibaldi that we shall be happy to have such an approach from the provincial government; indeed, we have encouraged that approach. Unfortunately, there has been no reply to those representations.


Harold Edward Winch: No reply at all in two years?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: No reply at all in two years. I might add this positive word, Mr. Chairman. We are hoping that one of the useful results of the resources for tomorrow conference which will take place in Montreal next October will be a closer liaison between the federal and the provincial authorities on this whole subject of recreational needs. One of the categories which will come under discussion at the conference is the recreational resources area, and I am quite hopeful that as a result of the spirit of co-operation that has been generated in preparation of the conference we shall be able to come forward with a policy that will meet in a comprehensive
4624	HOUSE OF
Supply-Northern Affairs way the situation that has been outlined by so many hon. members with respect to park facilities.
Let me deal briefly with one or two specific matters that have been raised here today. Let me deal first of all with the Windemere park suggestion from the hon. member for Vancouver East. Windemere park has been under discussion by the branch. We had hoped it would be considered by the historic sites and monuments board in the meeting this May. Unfortunately, we have not received the necessary data from Major Matthews; therefore, consideration will have to be postponed until the next meeting of the board.


Harold Edward Winch: The necessary data could be handed over to you right now.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Action cannot be taken until we get the information. Unfortunately, I am informed that that information has not been made available, and the board meets on May 23 with a very heavy agenda, as would be indicated by the many suggestions that have been made here this afternoon.
The hon. member for Marquette referred to Fort Ellice. It is close to my own district.
I know it; it is one of a series of fur trade posts across the country. I might inform the hon. member that there are the names of 10 that have been presented to the historic sites and monuments board for consideration, and they will be considered on a priority basis. We are aware of their historic significance.
We have encouraging news for the hon. member for Halifax. I have been informed that a vintage cannon has been obtained. The problem remaining in resolving the little difficulty he mentioned is in assuring that the proper type of firing is carried out, which will be authentic, and at the same time assuring the safety factor. The problem is under consideration.
He will also be interested in knowing that we shall be unveiling the restored clock sometime during the maritime visit which will take place as soon as the house rises.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Can the minister say
whether it is a short gun or a long gun?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Well, I think it is a compromise, as all good political solutions should be. I believe it is a compromise on that score.
I must apologize to the hon. member for Lisgar for not replying to his representations on behalf of the Nellie McClung home. Here is one of those historic sites that will have to be considered by the board. Whether it is of national significance or not I am not in a position to state, but I thank him for bringing it to the attention of the committee.
The hon. member for Medicine Hat spoke briefly on the subject of museums. Here is


another area of rapidly expanding interest at the present time. He dealt with the matter of preserving agricultural implements from the historic past. I am happy to inform him that the Department of Agriculture has an interest in this matter. I am informed also that one of those agriculture museums will be opened in Alberta during the coming summer.
The hon. member for Saskatoon had some comments to make about Waskesiu, which is one of our fine prairies national parks. Perhaps I can just give him briefly information on one or two things which have taken place at the Waskesiu national park. There is a comprehensive program of redevelopment taking place at Waskesiu. Sewer and water facilities were installed last summer. There is a new camp ground and trailer camp under construction at the present time which will help to take the pressure off existing facilities. There is a major difficulty, I am informed, in the waterfront area because of the concentration of tents and camp facilities there. A sanitary difficulty has developed which will require some attention almost immediately to take the pressure off the waterfront area. We are moving forward with a limited relocation problem to deal with this sanitary problem.
In addition, we are establishing a new marina and boating area which will make it possible for boating enthusiasts, who are rapidly increasing in numbers, to have the necessary facilities for launching their boats. Then, a new park area is under development and we are constructing a road to Crean lake which will again, we hope, take the pressure off the main facilities. The length of this road is some nine miles and the cost is about $60,000 per mile.
The hon. member also referred to Emma lake. The Emma lake dam has been completed, and there will be an official opening ceremony during the current season. We pay our respects to the prairie farm rehabilitation administration which co-operated in this project.
The hon. member for Athabasca raised the question of Wood Buffalo national park and the mineral resources which may be contained therein. This is a subject upon which I can make no pronouncement at all this afternoon. If there were to be any change in the status of the park, of course it would have to be only as a result of discussions with the province of Alberta which, initially, turned this area over to the national parks program as a wilderness area.
The summer works program for students was an interesting suggestion, I believe made by the hon. member for Kootenay East as well. The hon. member for Charlotte gave

us some more historic facts about Champlain and the initial landings in Canada to add to our knowledge on this subject. He also made reference to the desirability of establishing Campobello as a national historic park. These are matters that will have to be taken under advisement by the historic sites and monuments board.
There was reference by several hon. members, including the hon. member for Van-couver-Kingsway and the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard, to the boat St. Roch. I would merely like to say, in passing, that we have a genuine interest in the St. Roch which was turned over to the city of Vancouver at their request, I understand, for their anniversary celebrations. If the St. Roch is not being suitably preserved, certainly we would be happy to have representations on that score. The matter of maintenance is in the hands of the city of Vancouver. This is not an uncommon arrangement right across the country. Certain sites which have been designated as historic sites have been turned over to local communities for maintenance and for development.
The hon. member for St. Hyacinthe-Bagot referred to the historical significance of the area associated with the struggle of 1837. I would be inclined to agree that here is a historic site that might well be suitably marked. Certainly, 1837 was an important episode in Canada's development toward nationhood. I thank the hon. member for bringing it to our attention. The matter will be referred to the historic sites and monuments board in due course.
I believe I have almost completed the individual items, except to refer back to an item mentioned by the hon. member for Joliette-L'Assomption-Montcalm, namely the desirability of having suitable markings at L'Assomption college which was the alma mater of a distinguished Canadian prime minister, the Right Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier. In so far as the suitable commemoration of prime ministers of Canada is concerned, the practice in the past has been to mark some site in the nation's capital. Laurier House, for example, has been associated with the name of Sir Wilfrid Laurier. On the other hand, colleges at which these men have attended in their earlier days have been marked by groups who have a local interest in these particular associations. I might suggest to the hon. member that this would be a good project for the student body themselves, to find a method of suitably recognizing the fact that one of Canada's earlier prime ministers attended there as a student.
I must apologize, too, for having omitted a reply to the hon. member for St. Boniface in connection with his representations about
Supply-Northern Affairs the Grey Nuns hospital in the city of St. Boniface being suitably recognized. He indicated that I was aware of this problem, and that is quite true. I have had two meetings with a local committee on this matter. We have been negotiating with the government of Manitoba as well as metropolitan Winnipeg, which has expressed interest in this matter. We have expressed our desire to co-operate and I am sure the problem will be settled satisfactorily within a reasonably short time.
I should refer to one brief observation by the hon. member for Yorkton concerning the marking of historic sites along highways. I believe this pretty well exhausts all the points that have been raised in this regard. I would merely say that we are aware of some deficiencies in connection with these markings, but I would direct him to some of our more elaborate markings of historic sites where, for example, complete restoration has taken place. These are examples of the new program of marking historic sites.
I have just been reminded that there was some reference to Stoney Creek, which has been under consideration for some time by the historic sites and monuments branch. There was a meeting held on this subject last week, and a local committee has been formed to iron out all the difficulties at the local level. This is the sort of initiative we like to see, and when the local group has formulated its policy, we shall be very happy to consider representations from them.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I think the minister forgot the point I raised about Fort Rodd. I asked him specifically when this question was first referred to the historic sites and monuments board, and when they made a decision.
Since the hon. member for Yorkton is temporarily out of the house, I should also remind the minister that the hon. member mentioned Fort Pelly in which a lot of us, the minister included, take a great deal of interest. It would perhaps be useful to know what is going to be done there.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Yes, Mr. Chairman, Fort Pelly is one of those mounted police forts or barracks that is in the same category as Fort Ellice. This question is being reviewed by the board to consider its significance as a historic site. It is quite true the hon. member asked a specific question about Fort Rodd hill when the estimates were last under consideration. I have a report for him on this subject. Fort Rodd hill is part of the Esquimalt harbour defences and involves quite an elaborate complex. The matter of its preservation was first raised in 1957. The historic sites and monuments board considered the matter at that time
4626	HOUSE OF
Supply-Northern Affairs and recommended in 1958 that it be declared as of national historic importance. In that connection, the board reviewed this matter as well as the preservation of adjacent Fisk-ard lighthouse in 1960. The latter was declared to be of national historic importance at that time and in 1961 the minister declared Fort Rodd hill to be of national historic significance. By that series of steps the whole complex has now come under the control of the historic sites and monuments board.


John Whitney Pickersgill: It always was the property of the crown?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Yes. It was always the property of the crown so that there has been no difficulty in transference.


Mr. McGee:: I am sure the minister was saving the most succulent morsel until the end of his remarks. I am sure he has some remarks to make concerning the Scarborough ossuary.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I am greatly interested to hear of the hon. member's continued interest in this subject. It is a subject which will be studied by the historic sites and monuments board.


John Whitney Pickersgill: There were two other questions I addressed to the minister just at the end of the time his estimates were taken up on Friday, one with respect to the national park in Prince Edward Island and one with respect to the park in Cape Breton. In looking over Hansard I see that I do not think I put quite correctly the question about Prince Edward Island, according to what information I have. I understand that Mr. Doucette was an applicant for a job, that the job was given to someone else, as reported to me, and that in the meantime, this other man who had thirteen or fourteen children was in great need. I just wondered whether the minister, in answer to that question, could say what principle is applied. Is the situation, as I understand it is in Terra Nova national park, that preference is given to married men, those with families and that preference is given to those who most need the work? Can the minister say whether he has been able to get any information on this matter? I cannot blame him very much if he has not done so in view of the fact that I may have "misled" him a little bit the other day.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Yes. Considerable research has been required on this subject because, as the question was originally propounded, there was some uncertainty. However, I have some information. There seemed to be more than one Doucette involved in these matters.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I have about fifteen.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: A Clarence Doucette of Rus-tico was employed as a labourer in Prince Edward Island national park prior to and including 1957. In December, 1957 his services and those of eight other men were terminated. This was the normal lay-off of seasonal employees that occurs every year. He has not sought re-employment since that time and reports confirm that he has since been selfemployed in fishing for a livelihood. This man is single and a veteran. I therefore do not think he would have nine children.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Thirteen children.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Or thirteen children as mentioned by the hon. member.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I do not guarantee that.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: That does not seem to be the proper Doucette. However, there is another one. There is a Harry Lawrence Doucette, also of Rustico, Prince Edward Island, who has been employed in the national park for each year since 1946. His seasonal employment has been continuous except for the year 1953. During that season he was engaged on May 21 as a labour foreman and was employed through June. His services were dispensed with during the months of July and August but he was re-employed in September and worked the full month. According to information available, his period of employment in 1953 was interrupted following representations that he was engaged in political activities. Following an investigation, and representation by Mr. W. C. S. McLure, M.P., instructions were issued to the park superintendent that if Mr. Doucette's services were satisfactory, he was to be re-engaged. This action was taken effective September 1. No person was employed as a replacement during the period of his unemployment. This man is married, is a veteran, and in 1953 had eight dependents. So perhaps it is some other man. The year 1953 is eight years ago.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I do not know anything more than what is contained in the information which was conveyed to me. I do not intend to press the minister at all about this matter because I feel that I am not very well informed about it myself. However, I should like the minister to say a little bit more about what the general condition of employment is and to answer the question I asked about the additional information he himself was seeking, according to the answer he gave to the hon. member for Northumber-land-Miramichi.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: In Cape Breton?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Yes, in Cape Breton.


Mr.   Dins@: The hon. member lor Bona-vista-Twillingate is quite correct when he said that when I last reported on this matter I said I was seeking further information. I received a report from Cape Breton Highlands national park with respect to this matter and on the basis of that report I wrote to Mr. Boudreau, one of the municipal councillors at Cheticamp, Nova Scotia. Perhaps I can best answer the hon. member's question by quoting this letter. This is a letter dated April 21 and it reads as follows:
Further to my letter of March 16th on the matter of rotation of labour at Cape Breton Highlands national park, I wish to advise that I have received a report from my officers.
The report indicates that the established rotational system was followed, and as far as we can determine, every man hired was unemployed and in need of work. This practice is consistent with our policy, and appears to have been well accepted in the areas where it has been applied.
I checked back into the records and I find that this rotational system has been established for a number of years. There are on file letters which indicate it has the support of the local people and it seems to have worked out satisfactorily.


John Whitney Pickersgill: The information was given to me and I do not vouch for it personally. I just put it to the minister that this particular rotation was carried on not on instruction of the park officials but on the instruction of a local political committee. I suppose the minister would say that would be quite impossible.


Mr. Smith (Lincoln):: Mr. Chairman-


John Whitney Pickersgill: Perhaps I could have an answer from the minister.


John Smith: -I should have made my remarks sooner but, if I am in order, I should like to make some reference to Niagara-on-the-Lake and Fort Mississauga.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I wonder whether the hon. member for Lincoln would allow the minister to reply to my question so that the reply would appear in the record following the question?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Looking back on the record of discussions on this matter I find that in Hansard for February 18, 1959, at page 1147, in reply to a question by the hon. member for Port Arthur, my predecessor had the following comments to make:
There has been no trouble in the great majority of the parks but there are certain parks a long way removed from the national employment offices and we do have a policy of employing men who live close to the parks. This applies particularly in the case of Terra Nova park in Newfoundland and the park in Cape Breton. In those districts we have asked people of varying qualifications, ministers of churches, parish priests and so on, to bring to our attention needy people in order
Supply-Northern Affairs
to put them to work. We have considered other things such as rotation to make the work go farther and so on. Generally speaking, there has been a pretty fair effort made to move in that direction.
I think they will even accept recommendations from members of parliament.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I should like to ask the
minister this question. It is just a supplementary question which I think will take only a minute. I would ask the minister whether, in order to save me time and personal research, he could bring me up to date on the latest arrangement for patronage in Terra Nova national park.
Perhaps I ought, in fairness to the minister, draw his attention to the fact that one of the people who concerned himself most about this subject in the past has recently obtained a postal contract and with the purity policy of the minister's colleague, the Postmaster General, I would assume he would not accept any recommendations from him any longer.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Mr. Chairman, I am not as familiar as the hon. member with Terra Nova national park. As a matter of fact, if it were permissible I think I might ask him that question and he would be in a position to give me a more adequate reply.
Perhaps I could state the terms of preference in regard to hiring in our national parks. First of all, local residents; second, married men with dependents; and the veterans' preference is also taken into consideration.


John Whitney Pickersgill: There is one other consideration in respect to the Terra Nova national park which I asked the minister's predecessor and his predecessor also, because I think the minister's portfolio is the only one that has changed hands twice since the present government was originally formed.
I refer to an assurance that was given at the time the park was established to give a preference in employment in the park-and that was to be an absolute, overriding preference and I am very familiar with this, as the minister rightly said, because I had a good deal to do with the negotiations for the establishment of the park-to those persons who prior to the establishment of the park had made their living by engaging in lumbering operations in the park or in working in saw mills which used the timber from the park.
The provincial government asked for this assurance because they felt they were more or less taking away the livelihood of these people in establishing the park. They wanted to be sure that no hardship was effected. The minister's predecessors have never hesitated to reiterate this undertaking and I think have done their best to carry it out. I make

Supply-Northern Affairs no criticism on that score, although I think sometimes it has not got down the line quite far enough that this was important.
However, so far as the ministers are concerned, in this respect I have never had any complaint whatsoever. Since there is a new minister I think it would be reassuring to the people concerned if the minister would just repeat that assurance.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I am happy to repeat that assurance, because the policy has been to ensure that any persons who were displaced by reason of the establishment of Terra Nova national park should have preference in employment opportunities.
Before the park was established a number of residents in the vicinity earned their living by cutting timber on lands which are now in the park. Care has been taken to ensure that their means of livelihood have not been adversely affected.
This has been done by making available to local residents a fair share of the employment opportunities within the park, and also by issuing permits to cut timber during the period October 1 to March 31. Furthermore, so there would be no elements of unfairness resulting from the difference between provincial and national parks' timber dues, the national parks' timber regulations were amended in 1958 to lower dues at Terra Nova to those charged by the province.
The highway construction program has also considerably assisted employment opportunities.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I apologize to the hon. member for Lincoln.


John Smith: Mr. Chairman, I will be as brief as possible. I should like to congratulate the minister on being appointed to this very important portfolio and extend to him a very hearty welcome to come to the Niagara peninsula and visit some of the historic and important sites in that area.
I must make reference to Niagara-on-the-lake which is at the mouth of the Niagara river. Prior to confederation there was always a large garrison of British soldiers there. It was also an important place during the war of 1812 when the United States invaded Canada.
We have there Fort Mississauga, which is an old, stone and brick structure. We have Fort George, which has been restored by the provincial government, and we also have Navy Hall. As I said, prior to confederation there was always a garrison of British soldiers there; there were also a number of British navy units stationed there. Niagara-on-the-lake was also the seat of the first government of Upper Canada. So you will see, Mr. 

Chairman, that it is a very important and very historic part of Canada.
Across the river is old Fort Niagara, which was built some 300 years ago by the French. It was later occupied by the British and now, of course, by the United States. They fly the three flags there every day, the French, British and United States.
On our side of the river we do not have buildings which are quite so old. Nevertheless we have buildings which are very important in so far as the history of Canada is concerned. There is Navy Hall and Fort George, Queenston Heights and Brock's monument. These are all under the care of the provincial government and they are being well taken care of. Thousands of tourists go there every year.
I am particularly concerned about Fort Mississauga, which was built, I believe, about 1813. Therefore it is almost 150 years old. Unfortunately it stands in the middle of a golf course. This golf course was used by British soldiers and British officers during the colonial days. When one mentions the restoration of Fort Mississauga one of course gets into trouble with the golfers. Nevertheless I do not think that obstacle should permanently stand in the way.
I am pleased that the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources went in there last year and did some repair work on the fort to keep it from falling apart and becoming dangerous. However, I do not feel that is enough and I hope that some time in the near future the minister will sit down with some of the people from the Niagara peninsula who are historically minded and work out some sort of long term program so that Fort Mississauga will be preserved.
As I say, it is a brick and stone building. It has about two storeys underground and two above. Troops were garrisoned there, guns were mounted on ramparts and other supplies were kept inside the fort. I feel it is one of the few historic buildings still standing in Canada in its original state.
We have many other forts which have been rebuilt, but this is the original fort. It is just the way it was built, with stone or brick walls. It would be very unfortunate to see it deteriorate and fall apart. Therefore I recommend to the minister that he give very serious consideration to doing something on a long term basis so this building will be preserved.
In this area there are something like 1,000 acres of land. Some of this land has been held by the government since before 1812 and some of it was acquired later. In years gone by it was used as a military training camp, but the change in military equipment has made it obsolete for those purposes,

especially the land in the town of Niagara. I feel this should be preserved for some type of historic park. We are using it at the present time for a small amount of civil defence practice and a small amount of cadet training, but the day will come when the land may be disposed of. We hear many rumours from time to time to this effect.
I would be very much against seeing the land sold off for a housing subdivision or some other purpose. I think some kind of arrangement could be made whereby the golf course would be transferred from the Fort Mississauga location, and Fort Mississauga could be restored and made open to the public. The golf course could be put in another place, probably somewhere within these 1,000 acres of military camp land.
People from the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources have visited the area. They are interested in establishing a bird sanctuary on part of this land. I think that would be an excellent scheme because many of the migratory birds that fly south stop over there on the way down. At the present time there is nothing appropriate there. I feel part of that land should be used as a bird sanctuary because it is situated on lake Ontario.
There is also an area a few miles from there where are found the remains of the first Welland canal which was built in 1824 and I feel that since this was the beginning of the linking up of the great lakes something should be done in that area to commemorate the history of the building of that canal. As I say, it was built in 1824, which is a long time ago. There is a committee composed of local historians in the area which is interested in something of this kind and they have contacted the department. I would ask the minister to give consideration to making some arrangements for the disposal of the thousand acres of campsite and for preserving Fort Mississauga. Also, something significant should be done about commemorating the first Welland ship canal on part of the land which is available at the present time.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I should like to support warmly what has been said by the hon. member for Lincoln and I do so as a descendant of one of Butler's rangers which, I think, gives me a claim at least as great as that of the hon. gentleman to support claims made on behalf of Niagara. In my opinion this is far and away the most historic spot in Upper Canada and I think it should be preserved in the way Williamsburg has been preserved in the United States. I think the hon. member has been, if anything, too modest. The whole place is deserving of commemoration, not merely isolated parts of it. I suggest that
Supply-Northern Affairs a good many of the buildings in that town should be restored, because nearly every one of them is of historic interest.
I may be biased because of a family interest in the place-it has an attraction for some of us in the house, at any rate, as Butler's burying ground-but I believe this to be one of the most attractive towns in Canada particularly in view of the fact that, like Niagara Falls itself, it is adjacent to the largest concentration of population in the whole of North America. It would be a good national investment if we could persuade some Canadian Rockefeller to treat it as Williamsburg has been treated.


John Smith: I should just like to tell the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillin-gate that Butler's burying ground is well preserved and well cared for. It is a place which attracts many tourists. There is also the old St. Mark's church and St. Andrew's church. The original churches have been there for over two hundred years. They are in good shape. I thoroughly agree we have a setting there for a historic town which would be equal to anything in the United States.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Those last observations of the hon. member for Lincoln and the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate have caused me to rise and say a few words about an equally historic centre, the county of Essex and, of course, the city of Windsor. I am not going to indulge in considerations of priority at this time, but since the minister is just in the early months of his administration, I should like to take this opportunity of saying to him that we shall welcome him to Essex county in his capacity as Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources.
He will find many institutions of great historic interest. He will find the county and the community replete with Canadian history that goes back well over several centuries. In fact he will find families in Essex county who have a direct descendance during this period one of which is recognized by the name of the main street in the city of Windsor, Ouellette avenue. I point out to the minister that I think it would be useful for him to consult with his officials and find details of the generalizations that I am now making. He would find, for instance, in the Baby museum a historical museum that is rich with the memories of the past of this particular area. He would find, too, that his historic sites division has taken a great interest in this museum. I should like, here, to pay a tribute particularly to the late Mr. George Macdonald, one of the leading citizens of Windsor, for his work in connection with that museum as well as other personalities in Windsor among whom was the late Don

Supply-Northern Affairs Brown, the former member of parliament for Essex West. Then, of course, there is the museum at Amherstburg which will forever be connected with the work of Mr. Murray Clark a former member of parliament for Essex South. These two museums are repositories of the evidence of our rich historic past. When we are thinking of the future it is well for us to dwell upon the efforts of those who have gone before in our various communities.
I belong to a city and am a citizen of a county which has a very long history not only in terms of national achievement and local achievement but in terms of our relations with the state of Michigan in the United States. When the minister comes to visit us, I hope he will give me the opportunity of showing him Peche island which separates the city of Detroit from the city of Windsor. This is a Canadian island, owned privately. It is not as large as Belle island-Belle isle- the island owned by the people of the corporation of the city of Detroit, but it is a beautiful island and its potential value in terms of tourism and in terms of adorning the point of entry for the largest number of people from the United States into Canada is one which might well be considered by the government as making it a property which should belong to the crown either in the right of the province or in the right of the dominion or in the right of both the province and the dominion. I would ask the minister to give consideration to this particular matter. It is one which might, I think, serve a great purpose in the future for Canada as well as for the city of Windsor and the county of Essex.
I invite the minister to come and see us so as to give us an opportunity of showing him something of our history, something of our present achievements, something of our present problems and some of our plans for the future. Among these I include, of course, Peche island. When the minister is in Windsor he will, of course, take advantage of an invitation which will no doubt be extended to him by the hon. member for Essex South of visiting the historic sites in that section of the county. He would want to go to the national park at Point Pelee. He would also want to visit the Jack Miner sanctuary, institutions which I know interest the hon. member for Essex South as they interest all who live in the county of Essex.
I am sure the minister will take advantage of this invitation. He is a man of great modesty and I am sure will not mind my saying that he will profit greatly from this kind of contact with the people of an area so richly endowed in history, as we are in Essex county and the city of Windsor.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Chairman, I have been moved to rise to say a few words in view of the remarks made by the hon. members for Lincoln, Bonavista-Twillingate and Essex East. These gentlemen have all dealt with eastern Canada and I could see, as they were speaking, that the minister was very receptive to their suggestions, particularly those of the hon. member for Essex East.
I should like to bring to his attention that, to the best of my knowledge there has never been to this date a visit, by the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources, to the Kootenays. This fact was brought to my attention by some individuals interested in the forestry industry. While our history does not go back 300 or 400 years-only to 1811, the time of David Thompson's discoveries- there are many interesting things to see. Some very famous men have originated in the Kootenay area and lived there, as well as some even more famous women. We have some very interesting mining communities and other historic sites there. I should hope the minister will have the opportunity of visiting the stemwheeler Moyie at the village of Kaslo, in order to acquire first hand understanding of what the Kootenay historical society has done.
Therefore, Mr. Chairman, not wishing to take up the time of the committee I would, on behalf of the people I have the honour of representing, invite the minister to visit the Kootenays and, should he decide to come, I shall do everything possible to make his visit informative, enjoyable and to the advantage of everyone concerned.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
286.	National aviation museum, $139,875.
Mr. Matthews:: Mr. Chairman, I should like to say a few words in regard to item No. 286. I should like first of all to compliment the minister for the very fine work he is doing in the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources. I suggest that it is very fitting that this item, covering the national aviation museum, is included under his department. The minister served with the Royal Canadian Air Force in the 410 mosquito night fighter squadron and was awarded the distinguished flying cross. While I am dealing with this subject, I should like to mention that the hon. member for Calgary South was also awarded the distinguished flying cross and is now the president of the Canadian air cadet league, carrying on very good work in that capacity. While these remarks are not necessarily related to a discussion of the aviation museum vote, I felt that I should take the opportunity of bringing these facts to the attention of hon. members.

I should like to ask the minister if it is intended that other aircraft be added to this display. I understand that the Silver Dart is on display at the museum, and I was wondering whether other aircraft could perhaps be included in that display. I refer particularly to the Curtis JN-4 which was built in Canada 45 years ago, and was probably the first training plane used on this continent to any extent. I am sure that if a search was made in barns around the areas of Deseronto, Beamsville, and Toronto, some of these old aircraft would be found. I understand there is great interest in the United States regarding these JN-4's and that several of them have been shipped down there, rebuilt and are still being flown. I should like to see one of these aircraft placed in that museum.
Many of our pioneer flyers such as the bush pilots who flew in the open cockpit airplanes were trained in these aircraft. If one queries the old time flyers it will be found that a great amount of flying was done in these old planes and that they were considered to be wonderful aircraft.
Not long ago one of the old time bush pilots was asked to describe the difference between crashing in one of the old planes and crashing in one of the new type airplanes. He said there was very little difference. He suggested when an old type aircraft crashed it came down bzzzzt and, bang, it hit the ground. He said that crashing in a new type of aircraft was much the same, it came down bzzzzt, bang, and hit the ground, but a few seconds later there could be heard the tinkle, tinkle of the glass falling out of the windows. That apparently was the only difference.
I am sure the minister, having been a pilot, will appreciate the tremendous amount of work that has been done in the development and design of aircraft, and I suggest to him this progress could be reflected by the display of one of the older types of aircraft at the museum.
I had not intended to take up much of the committee's time but I did want to bring these suggestions to the minister's attention, and I hope in the near future he will be able to inform me that one of the old JN-4 Curtis Canucks is on display at the museum.


Mr. Peters:: Mr. Chairman, in view of the remarks made by the hon. gentleman who has just taken his seat, I should like to inform the present minister that I have been very interested in this particular subject for some years, and suggest that a comparison could be made between aircraft at the beginning of aviation history in Canada, and aircraft as they exist today by referring to our memory of the expenditure regarding the
Supply-Northern Affairs CF-105 Arrow program. I should like to ask the minister if one of the Arrow aircraft could be included in the display at the museum so as to represent what has taken place in the field of aviation in Canada. If this could be done, it would be of interest to compare the Arrow with the Silver Dart which is there on display now. I made this same suggestion to the former minister who assured me that he would give consideration to it, and I am now wondering whether it has been done, or if one of those aircraft is available for this purpose.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Mr. Chairman, I should like to reply briefly to the remarks made by the two hon. members who have just spoken. I am aware of the subject referred to by the hon. member for Nanaimo, but must inform him that it is very difficult to acquire a Curtis JN-4. It has become a very rare species. I can assure the hon. member that the aviation museum, which occupies almost the entire upper floor of the air terminal, is just a beginning of a much larger science museum, and that an earnest attempt is being made to acquire suitable types of aircraft. The Royal Canadian Air Force is collaborating in this regard.
In reference to the query regarding the CF-105, I should like to inform the hon. member that a replica of the CF-105 will be available for the museum when space is provided.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
287.	Grant to Jack Miner migratory bird foundation, $5,000.
Mr. Thrasher:: Mr. Chairman, I do not wish to delay the passage of this item, but I should like to extend my congratulations to the minister for his work in this particular department, and in so doing I should like to adopt the remarks made earlier this afternoon by the hon. member for Charlotte.
This particular item is of extreme importance in my area. The great work of the Jack Miner foundation is known not only throughout Canada but the whole world. I hope the minister will, in the not too distant future, have the opportunity of visiting this very important bird sanctuary, and will at the same time take the opportunity of visiting Fort Malden museum at Amherstburg, Ontario, as well as the national park at Point Pelee, both of which are located in my riding.
I should also like to take this opportunity, Mr. Chairman, to thank the officials of the department through the minister and to tell them how pleased I am with the excellent work done in the area of the county and the excellent co-operation given to the people in that area.

Supply-Northern Affairs


Paul Joseph James Martin: I hope the minister will take advantage of the opportunity now presented to say something in answer to the hon. member who has just spoken and also to what I had said on a much wider front on matters which concern the whole of Essex county.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I must say that I appreciate the kind invitations that have been extended by many hon. members to visit their part of Canada. I am fully aware of the historic significance of the area referred to by the hon. member for Essex South and also the hon. member for Essex East. At the earliest opportunity I do intend to visit the various historic places that have been mentioned by them.
I was interested in the comment made by the hon. member for Essex East with reference to the Baby museum. I understand that that is under private auspices-


Paul Joseph James Martin: That is right.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: -and has been preserved by Hiram Walker. I do not know just how it has been preserved. That is the sort of development that is very encouraging, especially when we have private groups interested in preserving our historic heritage.


Paul Joseph James Martin: It has been preserved by the Hiram Walker Company located in Windsor. Through the generosity of that company the museum is now one of our treasured institutions.
Perhaps the minister would also give me an encouraging word with regard to my proposal and suggestion respecting Peche island?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: That is a question that will have to be considered by the historic sites and monuments board.
While I am on my feet I might say to the hon. member for Lincoln that my officials have already had extended conversations with reference to the Welland canal project.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
288.	Grant in aid of the development of the international peace garden in Manitoba, $13,000.
John Whitney Pickersgill: One word, sir. I would imagine this would be an item on which the minister would think the taxpayers' money could be saved. Has the minister a word to say about it?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I am hoping that some other hon. member will take up the torch on my behalf in connection with this item. In view of the fact that the hon. member for Bona-vista-Twillingate has been so active on so many other matters pertaining to Manitoba I trust he will give this his wholehearted support.


John Whitney Pickersgill: It being so close to the place where I went to live when I first went to Manitoba, sir, I could not help but support it.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
290. Canadian wildlife service-wildlife resources conservation and development, including administration of the Migratory Birds Convention Act, $823,390.
John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, I have been waiting for this item for a long time. I have no desire to hold matters up but I did receive in my mail this morning a letter from one of my constituents which puts the case much better than I could possibly put it myself. To save the time of the committee and the minister I will read some extracts from it, but I will not try to read the whole letter. I do not think it will be controversial in the partisan sense, though it may be controversial in an international sense. This letter is in connection with the federal law concerning the killing of sea ducks, in which Newfoundland is no exception. The letter reads in part as follows:
First let me have a few words with regard to the open season period, namely November 14 to February 28.
Well, I will not go through that because it says some rather disparaging things about the weather in Newfoundland during the period and suggests it is not a very suitable time to shoot anything. Then, the writer goes on to say:
Next, I ask why the season closes on February 28. If it is because sea ducks or any other sea bird commences mating at this time, I am much to the contrary. Frankly I would not be the one to disturb any bird in any stage of its mating or breeding period. What I am trying to point out is that all species of sea birds are in abundance around our Newfoundland coasts yet the law forbids the taking of same. I might say that the murr or turr may not be any denser than several years ago due to the fact that it is a deadly prey to oil pollution. However, this enemy has very little or no effect to the various sea ducks inhabiting our shores, although it does take its toll.
Sea bird sightings this year have been greater than ever before; I myself being one of the most avid hunters of Bonavista have witnessed the sight of many sea ducks and estimate their numbers to be in the multi-million margin; radio broadcasts near Christmas of 1960 announced sea ducks denser than ever before in the cape Freels-Bonavista area yet conservation measures are still imposed. Why this is so is beyond my comprehension or anyone else's and I think it is about time steps were taken to have this law rescinded.
Now a word concerning the tickleace (killiwak) and bull bird as commonly known to us Newfoundlanders. Those birds are by law forbidden delicacies and like the sea duck are also in abundance. Why those birds are conserved is another law which leaves us all dumbfounded.
Surely the open season can be made to suit each province of Canada or do Newfoundlanders have to refrain from killing sea birds just because

Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island or some other province of Canada have fewer sea bird populations than Newfoundland.
Now, the whole point that this gentleman is making, and I summarize the rest of his letter, is in fact that these sea ducks to which he has referred and the other birds to which he makes reference apparently go to the Labrador for their mating. They disappear automatically from the coast of Newfoundland before the mating season. I know that this is probably covered to some extent by an international convention, but I would ask the minister-and I will send the whole letter to him-whether he can give consideration to the fact that Newfoundland is much farther out to sea and a good deal farther north than the maritime provinces and whether there may not be a good deal in the contention of this letter?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: This is one of several problems of a similar kind. We have the sandhill
Supply-Northern Affairs crane problem on the prairies. Perhaps the best answer I can give at this time is to refer the letter to our wildlife people and see what possible solutions can be arrived at. I know they have been working on this typical problem of the sandhill crane. With respect to this particular problem of the sea duck, are the sea duck and the murr one and the same creature?


John Whitney Pickersgill: No, I gather not.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: This particular problem has had no active consideration. With regard to a solution, I think it is something that we shall have to take under consideration.
Progress reported.
Resolutions adopted in committee of supply this day reported and concurred in.


[Stage Direction]
At six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[Stage Direction]
Question

[Stage Direction]
The following answer, deposited with the Clerk of the house, is printed in the official report of debates pursuant to standing order 39:


Mr. Regier: 1.	In regard to the forthcoming census, are officers being advised to consult the national employment service offices for potential helpers?
2.	If not, for what reason?
Answer by: Hon. George H. Hees (Minister of Trade and Commerce):
1 and 2. The census commissioners were appointed by the Minister of Trade and Commerce and, as has been stated on several occasions, he obtained recommendations from a number of sources. Census temporary clerical staff will be appointed by the civil service commission which consults local offices of national employment service. Census enumerators will be appointed by each census commissioner. They have been instructed to obtain competent people and they will, as occasion requires, consult with the national employment service.

[The following items were passed in committee of supply]:



DEPARTMENT OF NORTHERN AFFAIRS AND NATIONAL RESOURCES

[Stage Direction]
National parks branch-
283.	Branch administration, $268,584.
National parks and historic sites and monuments-
284.	Administration, operation and maintenance, $8,248,914.
Supply-Items Passed
285.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $16,149,217.
286.	National aviation museum, $139,875.
287.	Grant to Jack Miner migratory bird foundation, $5,000.
288.	Grant in aid of the development of the international peace garden in Manitoba, $15,000.
289.	To authorize payment to the national battlefields commission for the purposes and subject to the provisions of an act respecting the national battlefields at Quebec (chap. 57, statutes of 1908, as amended), $211,286.


[Stage Direction]
The co-chairmen of the Geneva conference on Indo-China represented by the governments of the Soviet union and Great Britain note with satisfaction that in accordance with their instructions the international commission for supervision and control in Laos convened in Delhi on the 28th April 1961 and thereby renewed its activity. The co-chairmen have received the commission's report of the 1st May 1961 and express their appreciation for the recommendations contained in this report.
The co-chairmen consider that the basic task of the commission at the present moment consists in fixing the cease fire in Laos in accordance with the understanding reached by the belligerent parties and in exercising supervision and control over the cease fire. After the conclusion of an agreemnt between the belligerent parties in Laos on questions connected with the cease fire, the commission should exercise control over the execution of this agreement. They have in view that with the agreement of the parties in Laos the commission in the course of its work of controlling this agreement will receive from the parties the information necessary for carrying out this task.
The commission should arrive in Laos immediately after the belligerent parties have ceased fire, having of course arranged its arrival with them, and should proceed to carry out its task.
The co-chairmen express the hope that the commission will carry out the functions entrusted to it acting in close contact with the parties in Laos. In this regard they are taking account of the positive replies which the belligerents have made to their call for a cease fire in Laos.
As regards the functions which the international commission for supervision and control in Laos will carry out on the completion of the first stage of its work the determination of these functions falls within the competence of the international conference on Laos which is being held in Geneva on the 12th May.
On the administrative questions raised by the commission in its report of the 1st May:
(i)	the co-chairmen agree with the recommendation that the commission should request the government of India to advance 200,000 U.S. dollars to the commission to meet its immediate minimum requirements on the understanding that suitable arrangement will subsequently be made to reimburse the government of India.
(ii)	the co-chairmen endorse the need for the greatest measure of economy by the commission in administrative matters.
The co-chairmen request the commission to furnish them with regular reports on its activities particularly with regard to the manner in which the cease fire agreement is being observed by the parties.

[Stage Direction]
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[Stage Direction]
Monday, April 10, 1961