1961-03-22

[Stage Direction]
Third and fourth reports of standing committee on banking and commerce-Mr. Cathers.


Mr. C. W. Carter (Burin-Burgeo) moved: for leave to introduce Bill No. C-76, respecting fisheries.


Some hon. Members:: Explain.


Chesley William Carter: Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this bill is to revise the Fisheries Act to bring it into conformity with the Canadian bill of rights and in accordance with the report to be tabled by the Minister of Justice under standing order No. 40, as required by the Canadian bill of rights regulations.
More specifically, the purpose is to determine whether the clauses which empower a fisheries officer (1) to accuse a person of violating fisheries laws, (2) to adjudicate on that person's guilt or innocence, (3) to confiscate without a hearing the property of persons, boats, fishing gear and fish, and which deny an appeal to the courts or to the Minister of Fisheries for restitution of the confiscated property if the confiscation is not coupled with a criminal charge, are consistent with the Canadian bill of rights.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



STARRED QUESTIONS


Mr. Argue: What is the value of contracts let to Canadian
S.K.F. Company, Scarborough, Ontario, by (a) Department of National Defence (b) Department of Defence Production (c) Department of Fisheries (d) Department of Forestry, for the following years (i) 1957 (ii) 1958 (iii) 1959 (iv) 1960?


Hon. Leon Balcer (Acting Secretary of State):: Mr. Speaker, the answer to this question is as follows.
The Department of National Defence lets contracts of this order only through the Department of Defence Production. Neither the
Department of Fisheries nor the Department of Forestry let any contracts to the firm in question during the period under review. It is therefore appropriate to report only as to part (b) of the question, which relates to
the Department of Defence	Production.
The answer to (b), then,	in tabulated form
is as follows:	
1957 			 $12,471.64
1958 			 7,287.04
1959 			 6^576.28
1960 			 7'054.36


INCOME TAX RETURNS, JACK DIAMOND, VANCOUVER
Mr. Howard: 1.	Since January 1, 1957, has a Mr. Jack Diamond of Vancouver, British Columbia, either in his capacity as an individual or as an associate with Pacific Meat Company Limited, Vancouver, British Columbia, completed and mailed or delivered any return of income as required by the Income Tax Act, and, if so, for which years?
2.	Have any of the said returns been processed by the Department of National Revenue, and, if so, was it discovered that there was any wilful evasion or attempt at evasion to pay the proper tax payable by him, and, if so, what are the details of any such evasion or attempted evasion so discovered?
3.	If the answer to question No. 2 is yes, was any action taken to (a) impose penalties and, if so, what were they, and (b) prosecute and, if so, what is the result of the prosecution?
4.	Has the said Mr. Jack Diamond discussed the matter of his income tax returns with any cabinet minister, and, if so, what was the gist of those discussions, and the results thereof?


Hon. George C. Nowlan (Minister of National Revenue):: To answer part 1 would involve a disclosure which would violate the secrecy provisions of section 133 of the Income Tax Act. The answers to parts 2, 3, and 4 are the same as above.


ADDRESS ON NUCLEAR WAR SURVIVAL BY MAJOR W. J. P. STYLES
Mr. Argue: 1.	Is Major W. J. P. Styles nuclear staff officer at headquarters, Saskatchewan area?
2.	Did he recently address the Knox Metropolitan United Church men's club in Regina on "Survival in a nuclear war"?
3.	If so, did he (a) discount the chemical and genetic effects on the human organism of strontium 90, carbon 14, iodine 131, and other products of nuclear explosions as unproven? (b) dismiss the possibility of intercontinental contamination of the atmosphere as a novelist's dream? (c) deny the correlation between strontium 90 intake and leukemia and bone cancer?

Starred Questions


Mr. Egan Chambers (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of National Defence):: Mr. Speaker, the answer to this question is as follows:
1.	Yes.
2.	Yes.
3.	(a) While not discounting these effects, he pointed out in an answer to a question that reports on this subject by various scientists differed to a great extent.
(b)	To a further question relating to a recent novel by the late Nevil Shute, the officer pointed out that there were a number of important technical inaccuracies in this book.
(c)	No.



NORTHUMBERLAND STRAIT


Mr. McWilliam: 1.	Has the national research council undertaken a model study of a proposed crossing of the Northumberland strait?
2.	If so, when will it be completed?
3.	If completed, what is the result of the model study?


Hon. D. J. Walker (Minister of Public Works):: 1. Yes, a study of a cross-section of a model of the proposed causeway has been undertaken.
2.	It is not possible yet to say when the study will be completed because this depends on information gathered as the study proceeds.
The answer to part 3 is, not applicable.



WAVE MEASUREMENTS, NORTHUMBERLAND STRAIT

Mr. McWilliam: 1.	Were wave measurements in Northumberland strait undertaken at the critical fall storm season in 1960 by the national research council?
2.	If so, what is the result of the measurements?


David James Walker: Mr. Speaker, the answer to this question is as follows:
1.	No.
2.	Answered by No. 1.



NORTHUMBERLAND CAUSEWAY SURVEY COST

Mr. McWilliam: What is the total amount of money spent on the Northumberland causeway survey to date?


David James Walker: Mr. Speaker, the total amount spent in this regard to date is $502,833.38.



INDIAN AFFAIRS


Mr. Winch: 1,	Has the attention of the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration, or officials of the Indian affairs branch, been drawn to a report in Time
(Mr. Argue.]
magazine of February 24, 1961, that a Mr. Orville James Wieben of Armstrong Fisheries Limited is reported to have said on his freshly-completed mission to Toronto, Ottawa, and New York that he had just sewed up his biggest deal?
2.	Is it correct that this company buys the catch of the Ojibway Indians who fish northwest Ontario lakes?
3.	Has the Indian affairs branch any information to the effect that Orville James Wieben lobbied through Ontario agencies a measure increasing the maximum allowable yearly catch in the lakes to two million pounds?
4.	Was the Indian affairs branch consulted in this matter?
5.	Has the Indian affairs branch signed any agreement or entered into negotiations with Orville James Wieben or Armstrong Fisheries Limited relative to this matter as it affects the native Indian fishermen?
6.	H the answer to No. 5 is "yes", what are the details of the agreement and/or negotiations?
7.	What provisions were made on past fish catches and processing, or contemplated on future ones, to protect the interest of the Indians to see that they get a fair deal?
8.	Are any plans under way by the economic planning division of the Indian affairs branch to establish policies that will result in catches by the Indians in northern Ontario lakes being frozen and processed at the lakes; and a system to sell, arranged to guarantee to the Indians the highest possible financial return?
9.	If the answer to No. 8 is "yes", can the minister give information as to these proposals?


Mr. John Charlton (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration):: Mr. Speaker, the answers to parts 1 to 9 of this question are as follows:
1.	Yes.
2.	The bulk of the catch is handled through the Indian affairs branch and sold on a tender basis. I am informed that Mr. Wieben does purchase fish from individual Indians on a small scale.
3.	No.
4.	Answered by 3.
5.	No.
6.	Not applicable.
7.	The production is sold by sealed tender to the highest bidder, subject to confirmation by the Indian fishermen.
8.	Yes.
9.	Not at this time.



SMALL BUSINESS LOANS

Mr. Racine: 1.	Pursuant to subsection (1) of section 19 of the Small Businesses Loans Act, have the banks prepared a report on the loans made from January 19 to January 31, 1961, inclusive?
2.	If so, how many loans have been made, and what is the total amount of such loans?


Hon. Donald M. Fleming (Minister of Finance):: Mr. Speaker, as lending under the new statute began only in the late days of January the figures for that month are not

significant. May I suggest to the hon. member that he might consider changing "January 31" in his question to "February 28". I expect to have the figures to February 28 next week.


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member is not in his seat, so perhaps the question might stand.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Perhaps it might be best to drop it and let the member rephrase it. I have made a suggestion which I think would be helpful to bring out useful information.
Order discharged and question dropped.



LAY-OFFS, ORDNANCE DEPOT, MONTREAL

Mr. Deschatelets: 1.	How many employees, civil or military, have been laid off since August 10, 1960, at the ordnance depot in Montreal?
2.	Of those laid-off employees, how many have been rehired since that date?


Hon. Pierre Sevigny (Associate Minister of National Defence):: Mr. Speaker, the answer to parts 1 and 2 of this question is as follows:
1.	Forty-one civilian employees.
2.	Eight.



PORTAGE LA PRAIRIE, MAN.    WITHDRAWAL OF R.C.M.P.

Mr. Benidickson: 1.	Has the Minister of Justice since replying to question No. 124 (Hansard February 15, 1961, page 2065) made a reply to a letter received from the mayor of Portage la Prairie, Manitoba, requesting information as to the minister's policy relating to possible withdrawal of R.C.M.P. forces from Portage la Prairie?
2.	H so, what did the minister's reply indicate?
3.	If the letter is still ignored, why?


Hon. E. D. Fulton (Minister of Justice):: Mr. Speaker, the answer to part 1 is yes.
The answer to part 2 is that after a careful review of the situation, including consideration of the representations of a large number of citizens who desire the R.C.M.P. to remain, it has been decided to renew the contract which expires May 31, 1961.
The answer to part 3 is, not applicable in view of the answer to part 2.



C.N.R.-COMPARATIVE WAGE RATE STUDY

Mr. Fisher: 1.	Did the Canadian National Railways commission a study of the relationship existing between railway wage rates and wage rates in other fields of employment?
2.	H so, to whom was the assignment given, on what date, and for what target date?
3.	What use, if any, was made of this study?
4.	Has the study become a part of any public record?
5.	Are the findings of the study an embodiment at the present time of the C.N.R.'s concept of a wage rate standard?
6.	What has been the cost, if any, to the C.N.R. for this study?
90205-6-204
Starred Questions


Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker, the management of Canadian National Railways advise as follows:
1.	No, but the six railways, Canadian National Railways, Canadian Pacific Railway Company, Toronto-Hamilton and Buffalo Railway Company, Ontario Northland Railway, Algoma Central and Hudson Bay Railway, Midland Railway Company of Manitoba, making up the joint negotiating committee for collective bargaining with railway nonoperating unions, did have a study undertaken.
2.	The assignment was given to Woods Gordon and Company in March, 1959 for completion September, 1959.
3.	It was used in evidence before the conciliation board under the chairmanship of Mr. Justice J. V. Milvain.
4.	Yes. The complete study, as Exhibits R-9 and R-10 is included in the official record of the conciliation board.
5.	The study was not made to produce a wage rate standard but to compare wages in industry with non-operating employees' wages in various parts of the country.
6.	As indicated in the answer to part 1, the study was undertaken at the request of the six railways making up the joint negotiating committee and the cost of it was borne by the six companies. In the light of this, the Canadian National does not feel free to disclose the cost or apportionment of cost.



STUDENT EMPLOYMENT, JASPER PARK LODGE, 1960

Mr. Fisher: 1.	Did the Canadian National Railways recruit and/or use the services of any college or high school students at Jasper Park lodge in 1960?
2.	If so, how many students of each sex, from what provinces, for what occupations and trades?
3.	What were the factors used in selecting the students including their order of importance on such possible factors as academic standing, the ratio of need, and the age of the students?
4.	Were any provisions made to give guidance to the students in their studies?
5.	What provisions were made to protect the moral good and welfare of these students in their off-duty hours within the property of the C.N.R.?


Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker, the management of Canadian National Railways advises as follows:
1.	Yes.
2.	In 1960 there were 162 male and 159 female employees covering necessary jobs customary in hotel work, such as clerks, porters, bell boys, bus boys, waiters, drivers, dishwashers, stenographers, telephone operators, waitresses, chambermaids and cleaners. The employees came from nine provinces.
3.	Selection is made from applications received in accordance with the judgment of

Starred Questions
the management. All applicants must be 18 years of age or over. No means test is applied.
4.	No.
5.	This is answered by giving the rules and regulations for the staff, but as they are lengthy perhaps the house will agree that they be printed in Hansard without being read.


Mr. Speaker:: Is the house prepared to give consent that the balance of the answer be printed without being read?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
[Editor's note: The rules and regulations referred to above are as follows;]
Jasper Park Lodge Rules and Regulations for Staff
1.	Employees must take their meals in the dining room set apart for them within the following hours:
Staff	First Officers
Breakfast 

6:30	to 8:00	7:00	to	8:00Lunch	
11:30	to 1:00	12:00	to	1:00Dinner	
5:30	to 6:45	6:00	to	7:002.	Property of the company is not to be removed from the premises without permission of the management. Blankets must not be taken on outings or picnics.3.	Employees must report for duty punctually and must not absent themselves from their work without permission of the head of their department.4.	Neatness and cleanliness in dress and appearance will be insisted upon; thus employees are expected to give care and attention to their uniforms.5.	Male employees must not visit or loiter around buildings occupied by female staff, or vice versa. Employees are not to visit guest rooms nor frequent the grounds occupied by guest cabins or public spaces at the lodge, excepting in the performance of their duties.6.	Quietness must be maintained in and around staff quarters after 11:30 p.m.7.	Employees off duty are expected to be in their rooms not later than 12:00 midnight. Those wishing to be absent from the property after this hour must secure leave passes from the manager before noon, and on their return they must turn in these passes to the office of the night matron.8.	Smoking in bed is strictly forbidden.9.	The sleeping quarters provided by the company for employees are well furnished and provide all necessary comforts. It is, therefore, expected that each member of the staff will co-operate in keeping these quarters clean and tidy.

10.	A room has been set aside for the use of electric irons. Employees are forbidden to use them or any other electrical appliances in their living quarters.
11.	Drinking or gambling on the company's premises is strictly forbidden.
12.	Employees engaged for the season will not be permitted to have, or drive, private automobiles or motorcycles.
13.	The swimming pool is reserved for the employees Tuesday and Friday evenings each week after 6:30 o'clock; employees must not use it any other time.
14.	Employees are forbidden the use of canoes. Their boating is confined to rowboats, the rental of which may be arranged for with the boat house attendant.
15.	Employees taking advantage of the employee's special rate for golf may play only within specified hours, during which time they will be considered playing members. They will not be served alcoholic beverages at the golf club bar; nor will they be permitted to loiter around the golf clubhouse after their game is finished.
16.	Employees must not go mountain climbing or on long hiking trips without first obtaining the manager's permission and being accompanied by a competent professional guide. They must also register at the administration office of the parks department in the town of Jasper.
17.	All employees are expected to adopt safety first methods in the performance of their duties, particularly with regard to the prevention of fires, accidents, injuries, etc.
18.	Accidents must be reported promptly to the manager's office; sickness must be reported to the nurse on duty.
19.	All male members of the staff are subject to service on the fire brigade and must comply with instructions from the fire chief.
20.	Employees will be required to pay the company for any wilful damage they do to the lodge property.
21.	Heads of departments are the only members of the staff who are permitted to patronize the guest snack room. All other members of the staff wishing refreshments must use the staff snack room.
22.	Members of the staff are not permitted to patronize the cocktail lounge.



FEED MILL PURCHASE REPORTS

Mr. Pickersgill: 1.	Are feed mills required to make to the Canadian wheat board periodic reports of purchases and of prices paid for grain purchased from permit holders?
2.	If so, do such reports indicate the grades of grain bought?
3.	On what date or dates were the reports made to the Canadian wheat board which provided the

prices shown in the table submitted by the Minister of Agriculture and printed in Hansard on pages 2426 and 2427?
4.	Has the Canadian wheat board any record of prices paid by feed mills for higher grades of grain than those indicated in the table referred to above?


Hon. Alvin Hamilton (Minister of Agriculture):: 1. Under the 1960-61 agreement signed by feed mills they agree to report their total purchases of wheat, oats and barley for the period from August 1, 1960 to December 31, 1960, and their total purchases of the same grains from permit holders for the period from January 1, 1961 to July 31, 1961. Feed mills are not required to report prices paid to permit holders.
2.	No.
3.	Each week the Canadian wheat board secures buying prices from representative feed mills in different parts of the prairie provinces. The statements filed on pages 2426 and 2427 of Hansard were compiled as at February 13, 1961 and February 20, 1961.
4.	Feed mills buy ungraded grain. The prices quoted in Hansard are prices paid for wheat, oats and barley, and the tables include board initial payments for No. 5 wheat, No. 1 feed oats and No. 1 feed barley purely as a basis of comparison. No. 5 wheat is not available to all feed mills and therefore it may be assumed that feed mills do receive grades higher than No. 5 for the buying prices which they quote. Their preference, however, would be for No. 5 wheat, if available.



MAILING OF &quot;HANSARD&quot;

Mr. Howard: 1.	How many days elapse between the mailing of Hansard from the Queen's printer and the day to which the mailed Hansard applies?
2.	By what class of mail is Hansard mailed?
3.	What is the length of time that it takes for Hansard, when mailed from the Queen's printer, to travel to Vancouver?


Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker, the answer to this question is as follows:
1.	One working day.
2.	Third class.
3.	Normally three and a half or four and and a half days.



C.N. EXPRESS OFFICE, NEW WATERFORD, N.S.   PROTEST AGAINST CLOSING

Mr. Michaud: 1.	Has the Minister of Transport received any protest from the mayor of New Waterford, Nova Scotia, against the closing of the Canadian National Express office there?
2.	If so, has the minister taken any action?


Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker, the answer to part 1 is no, and consequently part 2 is not applicable.
90205-6-204J
Starred Questions



DEPORTATION ORDER AGAINST G. L. POWERS

Mr. Nixon: 1.	Was a deportation order issued against George Lee Powers of Thessalon, Ont.?
2.	If so, on what date?
3.	Was any action taken to defer action on the deportation order, and, if so, on what date, and for what reason?


John Alpheus Charlton: 1.	Yes.
2.	April 7, 1959.
3.	Yes. Mr. Powers appealed the deportation order issued against him. As two civil suits were in progress in the Ontario courts, in one of which he was the plaintiff and in the other the defendant, it was decided not to deal with the appeal until the court proceedings had been completed. On receiving notice in November, 1960, that the litigation was concluded, the appeal against the deportation order was considered and dismissed. At the same time a minister's permit was issued under authority of section 8 of the Immigration Act authorizing Mr. Powers to remain in Canada for a period of one year.

On the orders of the day:


Mr. G. E. Nixon (Algoma Wesi):: Could the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration say for what reason the deportation of Mr. George Lee Powers was suspended?


John Alpheus Charlton: I shall not attempt to answer that question. I shall bring it to the attention of the minister.



CAMP BORDEN


Mr. Badanai: 1.	What is the rate per hour presently paid to temporary employees classified as carpenters at camp Borden?
2.	What is the rate for such classification established by the most recent survey conducted by the Department of Labour?


Joseph Pierre Albert Sévigny: 1.	$2.40.
2.	$2.50 per hour effective April 1, 1960. $2.55 per hour effective July 1, 1960. These recommendations by the Department of Labour have been submitted to treasury board for approval. As soon as treasury board authority is received, these new rates will be implemented.

Starred Questions



CANADIAN FORESTRY ASSOCIATION-REQUEST FOR FINANCIAL SUPPORT

Mr. Robichaud: 1.	Has the Canadian forestry association made a request for additional financial support?
2.	If so, has the government reached a decision on this request?
3.	What is the decision?


Hon. H. J. Flemming (Minister of Forestry):: 1.	Yes.
2.	No.
3.	Present position is that the directors of the association have agreed to provide the department with details respecting their plans for further development of their program.



B.C. PENITENTIARY-RESIGNATION FOLLOWING DEATH OF INMATE

Mr. Howard: 1.	Has the Minister of Justice received a copy of a radio script of an interview by a Mr. Jack Webster of a Mr. John Banford which was given over station CKLG, North Vancouver, B.C., on Wednesday, March 15, 1961, at 6:10 p.m. and which dealt with Mr. Banford's period of employment at the British Columbia penitentiary during the time that an inmate thereof, a Mr. Johnny Wasly-chen, died while alone and unattended in a dissociation cell the circumstances surrounding which Mr. Banford states he brought to the attention of the Minister of Justice which action Mr. Banford claims brought about his forced resignation?
2.	If so, what action has been taken, or is contemplated, as a result thereof?


Edmund Davie Fulton: The answer to the first question is yes, in that a copy of the script of the broadcast in question was received in the Department of Justice on Monday last.
The answer to the second part is that no action has been taken as a result of this broadcast, nor is any action contemplated because the circumstances are not as implied in the question or in the broadcast.
The facts are that in the course of a visit to the British Columbia penitentiary early in 1960 I decided that certain matters in connection with the administration of the institution required investigation. At that time Mr. Banford placed certain information in the hands of one of my assistants. As a result of the investigation certain administrative changes were made in the institution including a reorganization of the medical department.
I must deny categorically any claim which Mr. Banford makes to the effect that his was a forced resignation. At no time has any action been taken by myself, by the commissioner of penitentiaries or by the warden of the British Columbia penitentiary which was designed to bring about Mr. Banford's resignation or which would have the effect of doing so. The contrary is, in fact, the case. On the occasion,

last September, of a review of Mr. Banford's efficiency rating to determine whether his annual statutory increase in salary should be granted, it was the recommendation of the warden that the increase should be granted. The increase was approved at headquarters and it was granted accordingly.
However, on February 8 this year, many months after the actions referred to earlier were completed, Mr. Banford submitted his resignation in writing to the warden and this was accepted. On February 15 he addressed the following note to the warden:
I am unable to accept that you have been fully informed of the causes of, and circumstances leading to, my resignation. I respectfully ask a hearing on the matter.
On February 17 the warden sent to this officer a memorandum informing him that his resignation had been sent to the commissioner of penitentiaries, and added the following:
If you wish to record any causes or circumstances which led you to the decision to resign I would request that you detail them in full in writing so that they may be forwarded to the commissioner for attachment to your resignation. I shall make arrangements to try and see you next week after your submission is received.
By memorandum dated February 22 Mr. Banford informed the warden as follows:
After careful consideration I have decided that to submit reasons for, and circumstances leading up to, my resignation to the commissioner of penitentiaries would not be the proper course to take in the circumstances.
The facts make it clear that Mr. Banford's resignation was submitted of his own volition and that he himself declined to submit reasons therefor.



WAR CLAIMS COMMISSION

Mr. Hellyer: 1.	When was the war claims commission dissolved?
2.	Have the recommendations of the chief commissioner to approved claimants for awards of payments out of the war claims commission been paid in full?
3.	What is the balance of moneys remaining in the fund?
4.	What rate of interest is it presently earning?
5.	When will the final report of the war claims commission be available for tabling?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, the answers to the five parts of this question are as follows:
1.	The war claims commission has not been dissolved.
2.	No. Payment of the balance of the awards recommended amounting to $2,278,514.67, within the limit of the funds available is held up pending clarification of possibility of satisfaction available from sources in other countries and the finding of certain claimants.

3.	(a) Cash, $850,315.90;	(b) 2f per cent
1967-1968; government of Canada bonds, par value, $200,000; (c) 3 per cent perpetuals, government of Canada bonds, par value, $3,800.
4.	Interest at the rate of 2 per cent per annum is allowed on the cash in the war claims fund.
5.	It is not known when the questions mentioned in answer No. 2 will be resolved and permit the tabling of a final report on the operations of the war claims commission. This has reference to the questions affecting the payment of the balance of the awards.



ST. LAWRENCE SEAWAY  WELLAND CANAL LIFT BRIDGES

Mr. Hellyer: 1.	Did the St. Lawrence seaway authority recently call for tenders for the supply of gear speed reducers for the vertical lift bridges, Welland canal?
2.	Has the contract been awarded?
3.	If so, to what company?
4.	Did the tender stipulate that the work shall be constructed by the contractor?
5.	Is the work in fact going to be performed by the contractor?
6.	If not, for what reason?


Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker, the St. Lawrence seaway authority advise as follows:
1. Yes.
2 and 3. The contract has been awarded to Lyman Tube and Supply Company Limited.
4 and 5. No.
6.	The specifications did not require that the work be constructed by the contractor.



EXPLOSION, D.R.B. EXPERIMENTAL STATION, SUFFIELD, ALTA.

Mr. Hellyer: 1.	What were the conclusions of the official inquiry into the explosion at the defence research board, Suffield, Alberta, experimental station, last November?
2.	Did the report include any recommendations, and, if so, what were they?


Egan Chambers: Mr. Speaker, the answers to the two parts of this question are as follows:
1.	The inquest into the death of Mr. Norman Randolph Willis on November 22, 1960 at the Suffield experimental station concluded that Mr. Willis' death was caused by the premature explosion of a gunpowder charge in a field mortar.
2.	In addition to the public inquest, a technical inquiry was also conducted by D.R.B. officials. Since it has not been possible to ascertain the precise cause of this accident further tests are being carried out by D.R.B.
Starred Questions



ORDERS PLACED WITH CANADIAN SHIPYARDS

Mr. Badanai: 1.	What was the total amount for orders placed with Canadian shipyards during the past five months?
2.	Which were the shipyards that have received contracts?
3.	Has the Port Arthur shipbuilding yard been considered for a share of these orders?


Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker, the Canadian maritime commission advises that the answers to the three parts of the question are as follows.
1.	According to the information furnished by the 16 major shipyards reporting to the Canadian maritime commission the total amount of orders from all sources, public and private, for new ships during the past 5 months is $36,279,399 for 21 ships.
2.	Yarrows Limited, Victoria Machinery Depot Company Limited, Burrard Dry Dock Company Limited, Collingwood Shipyards, Kingston Shipyards, Canadian Vickers Limited, Geo. T. Davie and Sons, Limited, Saint John Shipbuilding and Dry Dock Company Limited, Halifax Shipyards Limited, Ferguson Industries Limited.
3.	Most of the orders were for private commercial account and for such work the answer to this question is not known. Orders for two small naval craft were placed on a negotiated basis and other government orders were placed after public call for tenders from all shipyards, including the one at Port Arthur.



INTERSERVICE EQUIVALENTS BOARD


[Stage Direction]
Question No. 221
Mr. Winch:: 1.	Has the Royal Canadian Mounted Police completed its investigations requested by the Minister of National Defence and of which the House of Commons was informed on July 5, 1960, into certain alleged irregularities in the interservice equivalents board?
2.	If so, what were the findings, and has any action been taken on them?
3.	If the investigation is not completed, when is it anticipated a report will be received by the minister?
4.	Will the results of the investigation, and any action taken thereon, be given to the house by the minister?


Egan Chambers: Mr. Speaker, the answers to the four parts of this question are as follows.
1.	Yes.
2.	The R.C.M.P. report stated that no evidence was uncovered which would warrant any criminal charges being laid.
3.	Not applicable.
4.	Answered by 2.
3224	HOUSE OF
Starred Questions

On the orders of the day:


Harold Edward Winch: Mr. Speaker, I think I am right in putting my question this way. I wish to direct a question to the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of National Defence who answered my starred question No. 221. Is the department willing to file with this house a copy of the R.C.M.P. report on their 10-months' investigation into irregularities in the interservice equivalents board?


Hon. D. S. Harkness (Minister of National Defence):: Mr. Speaker, this question would more properly be directed to the Minister of Justice than to this department.
In regard to whether or not any report presented by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police would be filed, my understanding is that reports of investigations by the mounted police are privileged documents and are not filed in the house or published elsewhere.


Harold Edward Winch: In that case, Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Minister of Justice whether a 10-months' investigation has been completed into irregularities in the interservice equivalents board, and whether the same will be tabled in this house.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Mr. Speaker, my understanding is that the investigation has been concluded. The Minister of National Defence has correctly stated, I believe, the position with regard to such reports. I would certainly have to give most careful consideration to making any exception to that rule.


Mr. H. W. Herridge (Kootenay West):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Minister of National Defence a supplementary question. Did this investigation prove that any members of the interservice equivalents board have been guilty-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member has received the answer that the report is regarded as a privileged and confidential document, and it seems to me it would be improper to ask a supplementary question as to what was in the report.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Mr. Speaker, I wonder whether I might say something that would go part way to answering the inquiry of the hon. member for Vancouver East and others who are interested.
While I still must take the position that the Royal Canadian Mounted Police report cannot be disclosed, I think it would be appropriate to say that not only did the report as


made to me and to my colleague the Minister of National Defence establish that no evidence had been uncovered on which to base criminal prosecution, but also the person primarily investigated died suddenly at the beginning of March, which seems in any event to bring a pretty effective conclusion to the inquiry.


Harold Edward Winch: Mr. Speaker, I accept that no criminal prosecution can be taken; he is before a higher court.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct another supplementary question to the Minister of National Defence. As the result of this report, has the department seen fit to change the controls and procedures in connection with the administration of the interservices equivalents board?


Douglas Scott Harkness: Mr. Speaker, I do not think
we have changed the controls and procedures. We have tightened up the procedures to some extent.



PARCEL POST RATES INCREASE

Mr. Carter: 1.	Has there been an increase in parcel post rates since January 1, 1961?
2.	If so, what was the percentage rate increase by provinces?
3.	What will the estimated gross revenue increase amount to per year on the basis of last year's receipts?


Hon. W. M. Hamilton (Postmaster General):: Mr. Speaker, the answers to the 3 parts of this question are as follows.
1.	Parcel post rates were increased on March 1, 1961.
2.	Parcel post rates are based on an extensive schedule of charges which vary according to distance and weight. Thus it is not easily possible to give an exact answer to part 2 of this question, but the rate of increase is the same for all provinces in regard to zones involved in their mailings.
3.	$9,300,000.



ST. LAWRENCE SEAWAY  DEPTH OF CONNECTING CHANNELS

Mr. Chevrier: 1.	What was the depth of the connecting channels (lake Erie to the head of the lakes) prior to the opening on the St. Lawrence seaway?
2.	What was the depth in 1960?
3.	How much of this work was done by Canada, and how much by the United States?
4.	What has been the cost thereof from the beginning to date?


David James Walker: Mr. Speaker, I have here the answer to this question but it is quite long and involved. May I have the consent of the house to have it printed in Hansard?


Mr. Speaker:: Does the house agree?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
[Editor's note: The answer above referred to follows:]
1.	Minimum depths when the levels of the lakes were at normal low water: down channels, 25 feet; up channel, 21 feet.
2.	In 1960 and until the end of 1961, the controlling depths will be: lake Erie to Detroit, 26 feet up and downbound channels; Detroit to lake Huron, 25 feet up and downbound channels; lake Huron to lake Superior, 21 feet upbound channel and 25 feet downbound channel.
3.	None of the work is being done by Canada. It is all being done for the United States government under the supervision of the United States army corps of engineers.
4.	The cost to date for Canada has been $200,000. This was the purchase price of land required for the southeast bend cut-off channel in the lower St. Clair river. This channel is in Canadian territory.



SAULT STE. MARIE CANAL TRAFFIC

Mr. Chevrier: 1.	What was the total traffic through the Sault Ste. Marie canal (4 locks on the American side and 1 lock on the Canadian side) during the last four seasons of navigation, namely 1957, 1958, 1959, and 1960?
2.	How many vessels transited the canal?
3.	How was the traffic broken down by classification and type of cargo?


Mr. E. L. Morris (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Trade and Commerce):: Mr. Speaker, the reply to this question involves five pages of closely statistical material, most of it published heretofore in government publications. If agreeable to the hon. gentleman in whose name the question stands and the house, at the conclusion of starred questions I would ask that this be made an order for return and would table the documentation immediately.


Mr. Speaker:: Order for return.
Orders for Returns
2. The representations consisted substantially of a request for assistance in enforcing the terms of an alleged agreement between Telford Adams and Dimensional Investments Limited, the force and effect of which is now the subject of an action in the supreme court of Ontario. The reply made by the department was, in substance, that every consideration would be given Mr. Adams, subject to the crown's contractual obligations under the agreement with Dimensional Investments Limited. Subsequently an interlocutory injunction was obtained by Mr. Adams and nothing has of course been done to assist anyone affected by it to act otherwise than in accordance with its terms. The matter is now before the Ontario courts.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. Howard: 1.	Since January 1, 1960, was any (a) nystatin (b) tyrothricin (c) neomycin (d) dihydrostreptomycin (e) streptomycin (f) tetracycline (g) oxytetracy cline (h) meprobamate (i) chlorpro-mazine (j) chlorothiazide (k) chlortetracycline (1) erythromycin (m) chloramphenicol (n) penicillin, purchased by (i) the Department of Defence Production (ii) the Department of Veterans Affairs?
2.	If so, for each month from January 1, 1960, to date, what was (a) the amount of each preparation of each drug purchased by each of these departments (b) the unit or units by which each purchase was made (c) the price paid for each such unit or units (d) the name and address of the supplier (e) the names and addresses and bid price of each other potential supplier or bidder?


FEDERAL ADVERTISING EXPENDITURES, 1960
Mr. Badanai: 1.	What was the amount of money spent on advertising by each department of government during the calendar year 1960?
2.	What was the value of advertising placed by those departments with each advertising agency which received such business from the government during the calendar year 1960?



SARNIA INDIAN RESERVE


[Stage Direction]
Question No. 225
Mr. Pickersgill:: 1.	Has the minister, or the Department of Citizenship and Immigration, received representations on behalf of chief Telford Adams with regard to his claims as a locatee in connection with the sale of the Sarnia Indian reserve to Dimensional Investments Limited, since November 1, 1960?
2.	If so, what is the nature of these representations, and what reply has been made by the department?


John Alpheus Charlton: The answers are as follows:
1. Yes.



OJ.I,. MARIE CANAL TRAFFIC

Mr. Chevrier: * Y'?131 was the total traffic through the Sault Ste. Marie canal (four locks on the American side and one lock on the Canadian side) during the
iqIo f0UY s,""s of navigation, namely 1957, 1958, iy59, and 1960?
2.	How many vessels transited the canal?
3.	How was the traffic broken down by classification and type of cargo?



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS


[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 77-Mr. Argue:
For a copy of all correspondence, telegrams instructions, and other documents exchanged between the Canadian wheat board and the federal
[Stage Direction]
Division
government since January 1, 1960, in regard to feed mills being allowed to purchase grain outside the quota system.
Francis Alvin George Hamilton: Mr. Speaker, since the information asked for in this motion is confidential information between a minister and an agency of the government, I am unable to accept the motion.


Mr. Speaker:: Does the hon. member wish the motion put?


Mr. Argue:: Yes.



BILL NO. C-70-CORRESPONDENCE

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 86-Mr. Howard:
For a copy of all telegrams, correspondence, or other documents exchanged between the federal government or any agency or branch thereof and any other person, government or organization since July 1, 1957, dealing with the subject matters contained in Bill C-70.
Edmund Davie Fulton: May
I point out, Mr. Speaker, that this motion is extremely wide in its wording. I think it would be difficult, if not impossible to comply. It asks for all correspondence, telegrams or other documents exchanged between the

federal government or any agency or branch thereof, which includes every department as well as other government operations, and any other person, etc., since July 1, 1957, dealing with the subject matters contained in Bill C-70. There is a huge area, therefore, which would require to be looked at in all departments and every agency of government. It would be necessary to examine all files back to July 1, 1957.
I submit that it would be essential to examine virtually every single file to determine whether or not it contained some subject matter pertaining to Bill C-70 which, may I remind you, sir, contains references to such matters as the financial statements of companies, the place of residence of shareholders of companies, the number of shareholders of companies resident in Canada and a host of other matters connected with corporations, as well as all the various matters connected with labour unions. In my view the scope of the motion is so wide as to make compliance with it impossible. I suggest that the hon. member consider rewording it.


Mr. Howard:: Yes, I will do that. Perhaps I might rephrase it so that it can be answered.
Order discharged and motion withdrawn.



RED RIVER FLOOD CONTROL

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 88-Mr. Pickersgill:
For a copy of all correspondence exchanged between the federal government or anyone on its behalf and the government of Manitoba or anyone in its behalf since July 1, 1958, regarding the Red river floodway.
Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prime Minister):: Would the hon. gentleman allow this to stand?


John Whitney Pickersgill: I shall be pleased to allow it to stand.
Motion stands.



SARNIA INDIAN RESERVE


[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 89-Mr. Pickersgill:
For a copy of any communications received by the minister, or the Department of Citizenship and Immigration, or any official of that department, since November 1, 1960, regarding the claims of Chief Telford Adams, in connection with the sale of the Sarnia Indian reserve to Dimensional Investments Limited, together with copies of the replies to any such communications.
John Alpheus Charlton: Could this stand, Mr. Speaker?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Did I understand this motion was to stand?


Mr. Speaker:: I understood the hon. gentleman concurred when it was asked that it stand.
Inquiries of the Ministry


John Whitney Pickersgill: I would like to know whether the parliamentary secretary has good reason for asking that it stand. This has regard to information that I am very anxious to acquire, and since a similar question was answered today I see no reason why it should not be dealt with.


Mr. Speaker:: The request is that it stand. Is the hon. member prepared to accept that?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I do not wish to be unreasonable, and if the parliamentary secretary has some good reason why it should stand I will agree. If he has no reason then I feel I should press my motion.


Mr. Speaker:: This is not a debatable matter, and the parliamentary secretary has asked that it stand.


John Alpheus Charlton: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the minister I think it would be better to let it stand.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Under the circumstances, sir, I am quite prepared to postpone it until next week.
Motion stands.



REQUEST FOR REPORT ON CONSULTATIONS WITH HONG KONG AUTHORITIES

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. L. B. Pearson (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Finance if he is in a position to make a report to the house at this time on the trade mission to Hong Kong.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I am not in a position to make a report in detail, Mr. Speaker. The group of officials who went to Hong Kong has just returned. I have received a report, but have not had the opportunity of perusing it as thoroughly as I would wish in order to answer that question.



FREIGHT RATES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hazen Robert Argue: I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Transport. In view of the statement by the board of transport commissioners that the increase in freight rates on grain will result in a decreased grain price to the producer, and in view of the protest launched by the maritime and western provincial governments,
3228	HOUSE OF
Inquiries of the Ministry can the minister now say whether the government will disallow the increase under section 53 of the Railway Act, to which he promised on February 27 consideration would be given?


Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker, this is a matter for cabinet decision, which will be announced in due course.


Hazen Robert Argue: I wonder whether the minister could clarify his reply by saying whether the announcement will be made before the increase is allowed to go into effect?


Léon Balcer: As I said, Mr. Speaker, the decision in regard to disallowing the increase is one to be made by the cabinet, and it will be announced in due course.



CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Louis Fortin (Monimagny-L'Islel):: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of National Revenue. Last Sunday evening the French network of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation presented the program "Gala de la chanson cana-dienne". Mr. Gerin-Lajoie, a minister in the provincial cabinet, was a guest of honour. In view of the fact that the C.B.C. is a federal corporation, shall we presume that the Minister of National Revenue, who reports to the house for this corporation, was also invited?


George Clyde Nowlan: Mr. Speaker, the answer is no.



INQUIRY AS TO TRIP TO EUROPE FOR INTERVIEW

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Louis Fortin: have another question to ask the Minister of National Revenue, and knowing his ability to translate from French into English I shall ask my question in French.
(Translation):
The C.B.C. has correspondents in Europe. About ten days ago, a certain Mr. Gerard Pelletier went to Geneva to interview Mr. Bourguiba.
Could the minister make the necessary inquiries with the authorities of the C.B.C. to know the reasons, if any, for not employing one of the regular correspondents of the C.B.C. instead of spending a large sum of money to have Mr. Pelletier make a free trip at public expense, or rather at the taxpayers' expense?


George Clyde Nowlan: Yes, Mr. Speaker.
(Text):



TRANSPORT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Lionel Chevrier (Laurier):: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of Public Works. Following the statement made by the parliamentary assistant to the Prime Minister on the deepening of the Ottawa river to Montreal, as reported in the news this morning, may I ask the minister whether a study has been made of the economics of this route, as well as the cost thereof? Can the minister tell the house what is the result of the study regarding both these points?


David James Walker: Mr. Speaker, I must thank the hon. member for Laurier for giving me notice of this question. The answer is that a study is being made based on an earlier engineering survey and other public documents, but the study has not as yet been completed. Does that answer the question?


Lionel Chevrier: I would like to ask a supplementary question. Could the minister inform us whether in the course of this study consideration is being given to the depth of the channel as well as to the raising of the bridges?


David James Walker: In reply to the hon. member I might say that my department is simply making an engineering survey.


Lionel Chevrier: I would like to ask a further supplementary question. Does the minister not think that having regard to a matter of this importance there would be required, on the part of the government, an engineering commission to go into the whole problem?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I think the hon. member is now endeavouring to present a case rather than to seek further information or the elucidation of an answer.


Lionel Chevrier: On a point of order, sir, it seems to me I have the right within the rules to ask the minister whether instead of the study which he is making through his officers there should be an economic survey or an engineering survey made of the whole route of the Ottawa river. That was my purpose in asking the supplementary question.


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member's supplementary question, it seemed to me, was framed rather as an argument-"does the minister not think this or that"-and not a question asking for information, but the

presentation of a point of view of the hon. member for Laurier. The rules indicate that questions should be made in search of factual information and should be presented in that way.


Lionel Chevrier: Let me then ask this question, Mr. Speaker. Will the minister indicate whether the government will consider an economic survey of a board of engineers to consider the route and the depth of the channel?


David James Walker: Mr. Speaker, I am just the Minister of Public Works, and a matter of this kind would have to be decided upon by the government.


Lionel Chevrier: In that event, Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Prime Minister if he will give consideration to the establishment of a board of engineers to consider the route, the depth and the economies of a deep waterway from Ottawa to the St. Lawrence river at Montreal?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I think the Minister of Public Works has pretty well answered that question. I am not at all impressed with the suggestion, and I will go no further than that.


Mr. J. R. Garland (Nipissing):: Mr. Speaker,
I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Transport. In view of the minister's announcement in the house, I think in mid-December, that a study was to be undertaken to study the studies that had already been studied, to see whether a further study was necessary-and I think this is a correct interpretation of what transpired at that time

has the minister anything to report on the study that he announced at that time in connection with the engineering or economic studies of the Ottawa-Georgian bay route?


Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker, as I said earlier, my department is carrying on an economic survey of the Ottawa river. I have not yet received the report from my officials.
(Translation):



ACQUISITION OF LAND TO WIDEN


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Maurice Bourget (Levis):: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of Transport?
Could the minister tell me when he will be in a position to give an official and final answer to the authorities of Quebec city with respect to the transfer of lands required for a start to be made on construction of Champlain boulevard?
Inquiries of the Ministry Hon. Leon Balcer (Minister of Transport):
Mr. Speaker, I have had a phone call from the mayor of Quebec city in that connection.
I immediately got in touch with my officials, and according to the report I have received this morning, I understand, subject to confirmation, that the plans have now reached Quebec city. On the basis of my latest information, the plans have reached Quebec city and the reply is to be forwarded to city hall at any moment.



INCOME TAX


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Robert Lafreniere (Quebec-Monf-morency):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Revenue.
Could the minister indicate whether instructions have been issued to his staff to conduct investigations in presbyteries of the province of Quebec with regard to tax receipts signed by the pastors of the various parishes?
Does the minister intend to put a stop to these searches which appear unwarranted, to say the least, in view of the fact that our priests are not and cannot act as tax collectors on behalf of the federal government?
(Text):


George Clyde Nowlan: Mr. Speaker, this is a matter of administration on which I will make inquiries and report in due course.



RAND REPORT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. J. Robichaud (Gloucester):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys. The minister informed the house on February 14, five weeks ago, that the interdepartmental committee set up to advise the government on the Rand report expected to complete its study in a few weeks and report to the cabinet accordingly. Can the minister now state whether the recommendations have reached the cabinet, and if so, what is the nature of those recommendations?
(Translation):


Hon. Paul Comlois (Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys):: Mr. Speaker, the committee in question has not yet completed its study on the subject, and I cannot say when we will receive the report.
3230	HOUSE OF
Inquiries of the Ministry
(Text):



THE CENSUS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. O. J. Godin (Nickel Belt):: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Minister of Trade and Commerce I should like to direct a question to the minister's parliamentary secretary. Are workers being recruited at present for the taking of the 1961 census? If so, what method of recruitment is used, and are local offices of the unemployment insurance commission asked to provide personnel for census taking?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member's inquiry covers a fairly wide range when one has regard to the extent of the census and the number of workers who may be involved. I suggest the hon. member put his question on the order paper in order to obtain a comprehensive answer.



INDIAN AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Frank Howard: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration. I regret that I did not have an opportunity to send notice of my question.
Has the attention of the minister or her parliamentary secretary been drawn to a decision of a magistrate's court in Lillooet, British Columbia, to the effect that an Indian charged with being in possession of liquor off a reserve, in violation of section 94 of the Indian Act, was found not guilty as charged because section 94 was held to be in conflict with the bill of rights? If so, would the minister care to comment on this matter in order to have the relative discriminatory-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I ask the hon. member whether he is not asking for a legal opinion in his question. There was a good deal of noise coming through the amplifier and I was not sure that I followed his question correctly. However, it appeared to me to be a request for a legal opinion.


Frank Howard: No, Mr. Speaker, it was not a request for a legal opinion. I asked whether the attention of the minister had been drawn to this case and whether the minister would care to comment on it from the point of view of having the relative discriminatory sections of the Indian Act repealed.


Mr. Speaker:: Perhaps in its last import the question is asking for a declaration of policy with respect to the revision of part of


the Indian Act. If the minister wishes to declare policy in answer to an oral question without notice, I have no objection but it is not customary to do so.



CHIEF TELFORD ADAMS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Paul Marlin (Essex East):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to ask a question of the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration. Will the parliamentary secretary give an assurance that the department, as trustee for the Indians, will take adequate steps to protect the legitimate interests of Chief Telford Adams in the Sarnia land matter?


John Alpheus Charlton: I will take note of the question and advise the minister.
(Translation):



LIVESTOCK


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Samuel Boulanger (Drummond-Artha-baska):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture. Is the minister aware of the hog cholera epidemic in the areas of Nicolet-Yamaska and Drummond-Arthabaska and, if so, what action has been taken to stop this epidemic?
(Text):


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: Mr. Speaker, in the last few days there has been a resurgence of hog cholera in four counties in Quebec, Drummond, Ka-mouraska, Nicolet and Bagot. Yesterday the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys and the hon. member for St. Hyacinthe-Bagot consulted with me on these matters. I am able to now inform the house that a senior official of the health of animals division is now in the province of Quebec and is making arrangements to use the powers that we have under the act to try to control the flow of hogs into and out of those four counties in an effort to stop the disease in the next four or five weeks.



SHIPPING


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. R. Tucker (Trinily-Concepiion):: should like to address a question to the Minister of National Defence. May I ask the

hon. gentleman whether he has any knowledge of the presence of a Russian icebreaker engaged in the seal hunt in the waters off the Canadian Atlantic coast, as reported in the Toronto Globe and Mail?


Douglas Scott Harkness: In the clipping which the hon. member sent me I do not find any mention of an icebreaker. In any event, the Royal Canadian Navy has no knowledge of the presence of a Russian icebreaker in coastal waters off Canada. Large Russian vessels which have been operating in the fishing areas off the Canadian coast are believed to be strengthened for operations in the ice.



COMBINES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hazen Robert Argue: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Justice, notice of which I gave him some days ago. My question arises out of information given to me by the public utilities commission of the city of Kingston, to the effect that the commission has received identical bids from various companies for the supply of electric cables, transformers, meters and street lighting fittings.
In view of this evidence indicating a combine in the electrical industry, is the minister prepared to order a full investigation to be made under the Combines Investigation Act?


Edmund Davie Fulton: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for having given me notice of his intention to ask this question. In reply I am glad to inform him that the matter has been brought to the attention of the director and is presently being examined to determine whether an inquiry is warranted. The general practice is that no information is given out as to whether an inquiry is being pursued unless and until a report is published.



REPORTED COMPLAINT AS TO ADMINISTRATION OF ACT

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Frank Howard: I wonder if I may direct a question to the Minister of Justice and ask whether he has received a letter from a friendly colleague of the hon. member for Russell, Mayor Whitton, complaining about the ineffective administration of the Combines Investigation Act. If so, can the hon. gentleman indicate what action is contemplated as a result of that letter?
Inquiries of the Ministry


Edmund Davie Fulton: have no knowledge of any letter from the hon. member for Russell-perhaps I misunderstood the question.


Frank Howard: I asked the minister if he had received a letter from a friendly colleague of the member for Russell, namely Mayor Whitton.


Edmund Davie Fulton: No, Mr. Speaker, but I have received notice through the newspaper columns, and I am awaiting the letter with the greatest of interest.



AIRPORTS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Lionel Chevrier: I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Transport. May I ask the minister whether the Department of Transport has decided to let, or is about to let, the Malton airport hydrant refueling contract without calling for tenders?


Léon Balcer: In view of the technical complications involved in providing a hydrant system to satisfy the requirements of all the various air lines and all the various fuel contracts, and because the system is required primarily to meet technical requirements including essential safety standards, the department has decided not to instal its hydrant system at the Toronto international airport. Instead it has asked the air lines if they would be willing to make the necessary arrangements on a joint basis, either directly or indirectly, to see that a hydrant system to satisfy their own requirements is developed at the Toronto international airport on a private enterprise basis. This matter is therefore being handled by the air lines themselves and not by the department.



HEALTH AND WELFARE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Lester Bowles Pearson: May I ask the Prime Minister whether he is in a position, or whether he will be in a position shortly to announce the appointment of the royal commission on medical care insurance?


John George Diefenbaker: I trust so.
3232	HOUSE OF
Interim Supply INDUSTRY



AUTOMOBILES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Paul Joseph James Martin: Can the
Prime Minister say whether he is now in a position to tell the house with greater precision when the report of the royal commission headed by Professor Vincent Bladen will be made available?


John George Diefenbaker: No, Mr. Speaker.



ROYAL CANADIAN AIR FORCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Arnold Peters (Timiskaming):: I wish to direct a question to the Minister of National Defence. Has the attention of the minister been drawn to the fact that the commanding officer of the R.C.A.F. station at Uplands, Ottawa, discharged the civilian staff employed at the Fina service station and replaced those employees with air force personnel? If so, will the minister investigate the use of service personnel in connection with the operation of a non public fund project.


Douglas Scott Harkness: I know nothing about this. I can inquire into it.



INTERIM SUPPLY

[Stage Direction]
The house in committee of supply, Mr. Rea in the chair.
Donald Methuen Fleming: That a sum not exceeding $638,909,350.10 being the aggregate of
(a)	one sixth of the total of the amounts of the
items set forth in the main estimates for the fiscal year ending March 31st,	1962, laid before the
House of Commons at the present session of parliament, $614,823,482.50;
(b)	one half of the amount of item 227 of the said estimates, $650,000.00;
(c)	one third of the amount of item 38 of the said estimates, $233,333.34;
(d)	one sixth of the total of the amounts of items 191, 198, 199, 271 and 307 of the said estimates, $2,038,429.67;
(e)	one twelfth of the total of the amounts of items 63, 277 , 370, 398 , 456, 459, 464, and 469 of the said estimates, $21,164,104.59,
be granted to Her Majesty on account of the fiscal year ending March 31st, 1962.


Donald Methuen Fleming: On April 1 we will be entering on a new fiscal year, Mr. Chairman. The main estimates for the new fiscal year have already been tabled. The present resolution and the legislation that it foreshadows seek a vote of supply required to


meet the expenses of government for the months of April and May.
In general, one sixth of all items is requested and with respect to 15 items in particular additional fractions of the items in question are requested, these in all cases relating to programs which do not fit precisely into the month by month succession of the 12 months of the fiscal year. In general, these are programs that require to be expedited or advanced during the earlier part of the fiscal year.
I give the usual undertaking. The passing of the bill to be founded on the resolution will not prejudice the rights and privileges of hon. members to criticize any item in the estimates when it comes up for consideration in the committee of supply. I give the usual undertaking that such rights and privileges will be protected and will not in any way be curtailed or restricted as the result of the passing of this measure.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Chairman, the request of the government for interim supply gives hon. members of the commons an opportunity to exercise their historic, constitutional right of introducing questions for consideration and if necessary for redress and raising grievances if they so desire before the supply is granted.
The minister has asked us for interim supply reserving all the rights of hon. members for discussion subsequently when the estimates are introduced and supply is requested again. The hon. gentleman has made the request for interim supply in order to meet part of a record level of governmental expenditure which has now reached for the year, I think, a figure approaching $6,300 million. With the supplementaries that have already been brought down and without considering any further ones that may be brought down, this figure, I believe, is over $400 million above that of last year.


Donald Methuen Fleming: No supplementaries have been brought down for 1961-62.


Lester Bowles Pearson: I referred to last year's supplementaries.


Mr. Benidickson:: It indicates a trend.


Lester Bowles Pearson: The estimates and supplementaries indicate a trend of increasing expenditures reaching record levels including something over $1.5 billion for welfare payments to be made by this free enterprise government.
As a result of this and other factors we have now to consider record deficits resulting not only from increased expenditures but from lower revenues which are themselves due very substantially, I think, to the recession in our economy from which we all hope

it will soon emerge; and there are some encouraging signs of that emergence.
That strong hammer in the anvil chorus of constructive criticism against the government, the Toronto Globe and Mail, in an editorial entitled "Diminishing Returns" on January 30, 1961 had this to say, and these are interesting words from the editor of that paper:
If the Diefenbaker government must operate at a deficit-as it has done ever since attaining power -it is better to have the deficit result from the lower revenue produced by reasonable tax rates than from the lower tax revenue produced (as in December) by excessive tax rates. That way, the economy will have a chance to grow; that way, the reasonable tax rates will eventually produce more than the excessive ones; that way, the Diefenbaker government-if it will curb its appetite for spending-can move toward a balanced budget.
Referring to the estimated expenditures the editorial concluded:
This enormous spending does not boost the economy, but throttles it; does not increase the number of jobs, but reduces them; does not provide "security", but makes every Canadian-employed or unemployed-the less secure. Canada's economy cannot afford this sort of profligacy; the December tax returns show it; Mr. Fleming should see them for what they are-handwriting on the wall.
As I have just said the cessation of expansion in our economy is largely responsible for the situation. I quote from an article by Mr. Ronald Anderson in the Toronto Globe and Mail of January 26, 1961:
Canada's economic growth has slowed almost to a standstill during the past four years. Since 1956 the dollar value of the gross national product has increased by 16 per cent, but in volume terms the gain was less than 6 per cent.
When we consider this situation of very high expenditures which is bound to cause anxiety to anyone who has at heart the welfare of the country and the employment of its citizens, we should remind ourselves that all these expenditures come out of our pockets as taxpayers. All of them are made by us directly through taxes or indirectly, if we try to escape this obligation, by runaway inflation. Nevertheless it is true that, in a time of economic stringency or unemployment, emergency tax adjustments may at times have to be made which would certainly not be justified in more normal and expansive conditions.
It is also true that in a time of emergency and stringency, expenditures may have to be made which would not be justified under normal conditions.
It was not very long ago that this government told the country that the solution for our problems was through huge expenditures for public works. That solution which was a phony one from the beginning in the terms in which it was put has, of course, recently been dropped, so to speak, by none other
Interim Supply
than the Minister of Public Works himself. However, as I have said, in these situations there are times when expenditures which normally would not be justified may have to be made. There are various kinds of expenditures and the government should be very selective when they are made. That selection should be based on the expanding of the economy that the expenditures will create and not on saddling the economy with extra expenditures which will be still there in their effect when the economy has gone through its period of stringency and emergency.
The governor of the Bank of Canada in his very important and interesting report, about which I will have something more to say shortly, has this to say on page 12 with regard to expenditure, and we are being asked this afternoon in this committee to meet at least some of that expenditure:
In particular, investment in human capital can at times do more for growth of output than investment in physical capital. Improved education in general, higher education for a larger proportion of those leaving high school, technological development and training, scientific research, and the development of skills and aptitudes of the widest diversity as required in modern industry, can produce very marked increases in productivity and in total production.
That substantiates my own argument that if we have to make expenditures in this kind of situation they should be expenditures designed to increase productivity. The governor goes on to say:
Such an improvement in human capital can help to develop new forms of industry and rapid expansion in the advanced technologies more effectively than can be achieved merely by straining for more and more physical investment whether provided by foreign investors or otherwise.
In the economic and fiscal measures which the government may have to take to provide for the expenditures which they feel are required, there cannot be satisfactory and constructive results without associating measures in the field of economic and fiscal policy with monetary policy itself, indeed, monetary policy is directly related to high expenditures and to deficits. It will be no surprise to the committee, Mr. Chairman, when I say that we feel that in this field of monetary policy there has been a shocking lack of co-ordination between the government and the Bank of Canada, the bank which is responsible for action in the monetary field, though in our view the government itself must remain responsible ultimately for the policies within which action is taken.
This matter has caused a great deal of discussion in the country and has a direct bearing on today's request for supply. It arose the other day at the Conservative convention. When the Minister of Finance was asked a

Interim Supply
question on the subject he is reported in the Toronto Star as having replied as follows:
... the Bank of Canada was responsible for monetary policy while the government was concerned with fiscal matters. However, since both fields offered an opportunity to deal with economic problems, their policies should be parallel and harmonious.
Of course, Mr. Chairman, the minister is correct in saying that their policies should be parallel and harmonious; and surely it is the responsibility of any government to take steps to ensure, by accepting responsibility for policy, that these policies are parallel and harmonious. Yet the government has refused not only to take the steps that are required but to accept any responsibility for taking those steps. Again, I quote the following from the Globe and Mail of February 23, 1961.


Mr. Pallell:: You should quote this morning's Globe and Mail.


Lester Bowles Pearson: I read the Globe and Mail every morning. The editorial reads in part as follows:
It is pitiful to see a minister of the crown so clearly contradicting himself for the sake of political expediency.
The editorial is dealing with the question of responsibility for monetary policy.
Yet we can stand the humiliation of a minister. What is not tolerable is that a responsible minister, for the sake of political expediency, should perpetuate and spread, within the country and abroad, dangerous confusion concerning economic policy.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Particularly the Minister of Finance.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Within the country and
abroad, says the Globe and Mail, it is intolerable that a responsible minister, for the sake of political expediency, should perpetuate and spread this dangerous confusion. Surely it is time that parliament looked into this matter to see what can be done to remove these confusions and to ensure, in the words of the minister, that in the field of monetary policy the Bank of Canada and the government should be harmonious and proceeding on parallel courses. That is why we have been asking the government for weeks now to refer this very important report of the Bank of Canada to a committee of the house. Indeed, it is perhaps the most important report by the Bank of Canada that has yet appeared. We asked for this procedure before the report itself appeared and in answer to earlier questions we were told that when the time came shortly for the tabling of the report that would be the time to decide what should be done about it.

After the report was tabled we asked again that it should be submitted to a committee. In fact, I asked the Prime Minister only yesterday to have the report submitted to the banking and commerce committee of the house for purposes which I have already indicated are so important, and the Prime Minister stated in reply that this was a matter for determination by the committee itself. We are asking now that this report should go to this committee or some special committee. If the banking and commerce committee, because it is overburdened with work or for some other reason, does not wish to examine this most important report dealing with this very important matter, then we ask that it should go to a special committee. The report does not deal only with the most important question of monetary policy. There is much in it that goes beyond monetary policy. Therefore if the banking and commerce committee is not in a position to deal with it we ask that it be submitted to a special committee.
Indeed, Mr. Chairman, this is a course which has already been recommended in an impressive way by the Ottawa Journal in an editorial on March 16 from which I can perhaps quote a few words.
It might be said that the governor of the bank should not have thus to explain his mysteries to parliament-*
By appearing before a committee.
-else in the event he appeared to lose the detachment and dignity that should be his. The Journal rejects this.
We on this side reject it too.
We reject it for we are not suggesting he appear before one of the conventional committees such as banking and commerce, where there would be the conventional push and pull, pouncing and defending, clamour and confusion.
Parenthetically may I say that would seem to be a little hard on the banking and commerce committee. If that committee decided to look into this matter we are confident that it would do a good job, but that is a confidence which is not shared by the editor of the Ottawa Journal. The editor goes on to say:
A smaller and well-selected committee, probing rather political, could surely serve here a purpose as useful to Mr. Coyne as to parliament itself. Mr. Coyne has elected to take his case to the country in public speeches. The Journal has commended him for this and for the courage of his assertions. But if he is to step down from the eyrie of his bank to state his views to the people he should also be available to the cross-examination of the people, to the enlightenment of both.
We ask the government to take action which will make possible this examination of the governor's report and of the governor. The Minister of Finance has already indicated, in answer to a question by the hon. member

for Kenora-Rainy River, that he is going to make a report to the house on this matter during the current week.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I did not say a
report.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Perhaps "report" is the wrong word.


Paul Joseph James Martin: An announcement of great significance.


Lester Bowles Pearson: The minister said he would deal with the matter next week, and that is this week. If we are to be informed in due course that a royal commission is to be set up on monetary policy, that will not meet the objectives which we have in mind and which I am attempting to state today. No royal commission, Mr. Chairman, can take away from the members of this committee their right or their duty to examine this matter which is one of immediate and great importance. A royal commission might be used as a device to shelve this whole question for years. We are asking this government for an examination of this matter now on the basis of the report which has been tabled and which, I think I am right in saying, has been considered by a committee of this house in the past.
I hope the minister will be able to reassure us on this point before he asks us to take action in regard to interim supply. I am thinking of an examination of this report not merely because it deals strictly with monetary policy, important though that is. I am thinking of the statements made in this report by the governor of the Bank of Canada which go far beyond monetary policy and which enter the field of fiscal and economic policy. These statements indicate that the governor has some ideas or some proposals which might help this country out of some of its economic difficulties. It is because of the importance of those statements by this important man that I venture, before I sit down, to read from this report, and to substantiate my statement that it goes far beyond the strict operation of monetary policy. I am not criticizing the governor for doing this because it has been done in past reports.
Mr. Coyne has this to say as recorded at the bottom of page 16 of this report:
Large-scale unemployment is an indication of failure on the part of all of us collectively to make the most effective use of the resources of modern technology and social organization. When the economy as a whole operates at less than full capacity-
That is the situation now with 726,000 people out of work.
-we are not producing the maximum possible supply of goods and services for use today, either for consumption or for increasing our capacity to provide a higher rate of production and a higher
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standard of living tomorrow. The nation as a whole suffers real economic loss, and it is avoidable economic loss, in addition to the personal loss and frustration of those particular persons who are seeking work and unable to find it. It seems to me only common sense, when considering the economic, social and personal problems of unemployment, that no price is too great for the community as a whole to pay in order to achieve full production and reduce unemployment to the lowest possible level.
That is a very important, straightforward statement from a man who is in a very responsible position and who has great authority and responsibility in the field of monetary policy. Surely it would be proper to examine the governor and the officials of the bank on statements of that kind. I should like Mr. Coyne to elaborate and perhaps be a little more definite about what can be done to realize the objectives which he has set out in this paragraph and which he says can be realized if the community is willing to do so.
Then the report goes on in this way:
A central bank must be opposed to inflationary methods which involve excessive monetary expansion.
There can be no quarrel with that statement.
But the adoption of any policy or any combination of policies directed towards establishing and maintaining full employment, and maintaining a high rate of steadily continuing economic growth without inflation, is not in any way prevented or limited by the central bank or by a sound money policy.
Presumably what the governor of the Bank of Canada means by that is that if there is a sound monetary policy-he asserts that the monetary policy followed by the bank has been sound-then within that policy and without inflation the government can take steps in the fiscal and economic fields to bring about and maintain a high level of employment. As Mr. Coyne puts it:
There is no financial obstacle to the carrying out in a non-inflationary way of any program which is physically possible, if the community is willing to make the appropriate arrangements and put into effect whatever changes in the use of physical resources and changes in the distribution of real incomes may be involved in such programs.
Something else is required, Mr. Chairman, in addition to the will of the community and that is sound, bold and strong leadership on the part of the government of the day. This is what we are requesting. Every member of the House of Commons has his own responsibility to assist in this regard. Surely it would be desirable, if it is practicable, to have this report and the matters contained in it submitted to a committee of this House of Commons.
I should like to give one more quotation from Mr. Coyne, following what I have just read. He says:

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These are the real factors involved, which cannot be avoided, whatever method be favoured to deal with them.
He is talking about the will of the community to take action. I have added the requirement of sound, bold and strong leadership on the part of the government. He says:
Inflation itself is one method of inducing changes and adjustments in the use of physical resources and in the distribution of real incomes-but there must be more equitable and efficient ways, better ways of sharing the real costs and ultimate benefits of full employment policy and other constructive economic and social policies.
These are impressive words in an impressive and, in some respects perhaps, controversial report. Because it is so impressive and because in some respects it is controversial this report should be examined by a committee of this house. This matter should not be referred to any royal commission as a device for avoiding a parliamentary examination. Therefore, before supply is granted, we ask the minister, whether or not he can give us some reassurance that this procedure will be followed.


Hazen Robert Argue: The country faces at the moment a very grave unemployment situation which, as has been demonstrated in the figures made available today, is steadily worsening. Monetary policy has a very important effect on the economy, the whole problem of unemployment, surplus agricultural commodities and other important economic questions. When the Minister of Finance was in opposition he complained about high interest rates, and about the tight money policy the former government was following. He complained that they were not following a policy of lower interest rates and an expanded money supply. Now that the minister is in office, he seems to be determined to do exactly the opposite of what he recommended when he was in opposition and to adopt policies which are the opposite of those he put forward at that time.
The country faces a grave unemployment situation. The government has failed to deal with it. The statistics cannot be pooh-poohed or laughed off, even if hon. gentlemen opposite would like to do so. These figures not only show 719,000 unemployed in the week ended February 18 but show that in certain parts of Canada this matter of unemployment is extremely serious. They show that 18 per cent of the labour force is unemployed in the Atlantic region. This government has not put forward any program to deal with the problems in that region. When questions regarding coal policy are raised the government holds a conference but does not decide upon any policy. There is almost one person in five unemployed in the maritimes.

The figures show that 14.5 per cent of the labour force is unemployed in Quebec. This means that one person in seven suffers all the miseries of hardship, physical and mental, which flow from such a situation. Still the government does not act. Apparently the government is not concerned about this unemployment because it refuses to take steps to find a solution to the problem.
Let us consider these figures in regard to the prairie region where we find a better situation than that in the rest of Canada but still 7.1 per cent of the labour force is unemployed, or one person in 14.
The unemployment situation in the Pacific region is exceedingly bad, with 13.9 per cent of the labour force unemployed, or approximately one person in seven.
In the province of Ontario these figures show that 8.6 per cent of the labour force is unemployed. This a serious situation. It is not quite as bad as the national average, but still it is severe. This indicates that one person in 12 is unemployed. Although the province of Ontario is relatively better off in regard to unemployment than are most of the other provinces, nevertheless, in the great city of Toronto public welfare officers have made the statement that there is hunger in the city, that people are suffering from the lack of food. In spite of this situation the government fails to take any action with regard to monetary and other policies.
The governor of the Bank of Canada has been criticized very severely in recent days. The Minister of Finance takes a rather strange attitude towards this criticism. He states that the Bank of Canada is entirely separate from the government. The Minister of Finance states that he is not responsible for anything the Bank of Canada does, or for any statement made by the governor of the Bank of Canada. According to the Minister of Finance the Bank of Canada and the governor are laws unto themselves. Although this seems to be an alibi that the minister is putting forward, it would seem to me that the government must agree with the policies that are followed by the Bank of Canada or the government would change those policies. Surely in our democracy we have not yet arrived at the point where the government can say that all of these things are the responsibility of the Bank of Canada, that the government has abdicated its responsibility and that the Bank of Canada is running the country.
I believe the record will show that I made this suggestion first during this session, but in any event the opposition members of both parties have asked time after time that this whole question of monetary policy be referred

to the banking and commerce committee. The minister has taken a non-committal attitude in this regard. He has not said that this will not be done or that he opposed it, but has just not taken any step to see that it is done. When I asked him a question in this regard on December 8 he replied that the annual report of the Bank of Canada had not been received but that when it was received the house could take action if it wished to do so. I suggest that now is the time for the government to send that annual report to the banking and commerce committee where a full inquiry can be made into central bank policies and into depressed economic conditions which exist throughout the country. I would suggest that it is perhaps of greater importance that an inquiry be made into the financial policies which are now being followed by the government, and in order to regularize such a procedure I would suggest that this parliament should refer not only the Bank of Canada report to that committee but also the estimates of the Department of Finance. The Minister of Finance should also be available to that committee in order to answer questions. Let us turn the spotlight of public opinion on this colossal failure of the government to deal with the economic crisis currently facing the Canadian nation.
Instead of dealing with this unemployment problem the government seems determined to adopt measures that will make a solution more difficult. High interest rates have made borrowings by provincial governments very difficult. High interest rates have rendered the whole question of municipal finances almost unbearable. Nevertheless the minister is apparently content with the very high interest rates being paid in this country today. They may be all right from the minister's point of view because the government has almost unlimited powers of taxation, but they are certainly not all right from the point of view of provincial governments, many of which have been forced into deficit budget positions, a situation which has placed unbearable burdens on the municipalities in this country. I suggest that now is the time for the government to end this high interest rate policy and to reduce the interest rate as a start on a program that will provide full employment.
It would be interesting to have the governor of the Bank of Canada before the banking and commerce committee because he has said that he knows how to solve the unemployment problem without any inflation taking place. This is the man with the greatest responsibility in regard to monetary policy in Canada and he says in his annual report
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that we in Canada can have full employment without inflation. Apparently this government is not prepared to have his programs spelled out by having Mr. Coyne appear before the banking and commerce committee.
If the Minister of Finance is not interested in the question of recession and widespread unemployment personally, he should be interested from a political standpoint. Not only is the country suffering generally from unemployment. I would suggest there is every indication that the Tory party is suffering through its failure to solve the problem.
The governor of the Bank of Canada has said in his report that there is no financial obstacle to the carrying out in a non-inflationary way of any program which is physically possible, if the community is willing to make the appropriate arrangements and to put into effect whatever changes in the use of physical resources and changes in the distribution of real incomes may be involved in such programs. The governor of the Bank of Canada says further that we can have full production and full employment, and can do all of these things in a non-inflationary way. The Minister of Finance on the other hand apparently does not want to hear about this, and does not want to listen to Mr. Coyne give details of this program. He refuses to have this annual report considered by the banking and commerce committee, but I would suggest that is the way in which to deal with this subject.
I would suggest that the way to deal with the problem of unemployment in Canada today is quite clear.
The government has to undertake policies of the same kind as those that were undertaken by a Liberal administration during the war. This problem has to be attacked by an expansion in the money supply, by an increase in the purchasing power in the pockets of the people of this country and by calling on the people of this nation to invest their own money in the productive resources of our own country and not to depend on United States money. This policy should be followed by one of price regulations when necessary in order to prevent an increase in the general price level.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Chairman, would the hon. member permit a question? He is of course familiar with the debates we used to have years ago on this subject, and he understands that it was pointed out by those who were administering price controls that they could not enforce them without wage controls. Do I understand that the hon. member is advocating wage controls as well?


Hazen Robert Argue: I know that the minister thinks this is a really tough question, but I do not

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think so. I think wage control flows from price control. You do not have to set a rigid control on wages in order to have the level of wages influenced and largely controlled by the price level. Show me any depressed industry in Canada today and I will show you an industry where wages are low.
There is no arbitrary control of the wage level in the coal industry, but wages are low. There is an arbitrary control at the moment although there have been attempts in the past-and we may get a dose of it soon-to freeze the wages of the railway workers, but they are very much controlled because in recent years this industry has not been one of much profit.
Therefore in answer to the question of the Minister of Finance I would reply that we in this party say there should be a control of prices in the key industries in this country. If you regulate prices, this control in itself has a very definite influence on wages. I may say to the minister that some of the people most strongly in support of price regulations are the workers and their organizations who would be affected, along with other Canadians, by any such policy being followed.
However, I think we have an issue at the moment, as the Prime Minister has so aptly put it, between free enterprise and socialism. The government is so married to the free enterprise system, and it so loves the profits of the big corporations and the high interest rates paid to the finance institutions of this country that it refuses to take the steps necessary to solve the unemployment crisis because this might mean some control of the economy.
We know that the Liberal party is not in favour of controls. They have said all along that they would not go for price regulations. They are also a free enterprise party.


Paul Joseph James Martin: You do not know what you are talking about.


Hazen Robert Argue: They are strong in condemnation but they are short on programs and alternative procedures.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Keep the debate on an objective plane.


Hazen Robert Argue: Coming from the hon. member for Essex East, this is rather difficult to take, because I think the hon. member is probably the least objective member of the house.


An hon. Member:: But he is not a socialist.


Hazen Robert Argue: However, he will have an opportunity in a few moments, no doubt, to deal with this matter. The hon. member for Essex East has so much difficulty with his

own statements that he should not worry about the content of statements of other hon. members.
We shall undoubtedly hear the policy of the Liberal party when the hon. member for Essex East makes his contribution, and I look forward to it very much. However, I very much doubt that the Liberal party will come out in favour of price regulations along with a massive attack on unemployment. They say they can make a few short cuts and a few tiny modifications that will allow big business to run the country in the future as it does today. But they say they are going to solve the problem of unemployment, where the Conservatives have failed.
The Liberal party has a long record in this country, and in past years there has been very high unemployment under a Liberal government.


Paul Joseph James Martin: That is not the
fact.


Hazen Robert Argue: I suggest that the minister should consider the plea that has been made to him this afternoon to have the annual report of the Bank of Canada referred to the banking and commerce committee. I would ask him to also consider referring the estimates of the Department of Finance to this committee. Let us have a full public inquiry. Let us find out how Mr. Coyne and other experts can deal with the very difficult recession in which this country now finds itself.


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Chairman, in introducing his remarks earlier this afternoon the Leader of the Opposition spoke of the historic and constitutional right which members of parliament have on an occasion such as this. That right is to raise grievances or deal with matters concerning which the Minister of Finance is now seeking interim supply.
There is one such matter with which I should like to deal, and I should like to do so in an objective and constructive manner. It concerns a subject matter which has been under discussion here on a number of occasions, and it concerns a very important industry which exists in several parts of Canada but more particularly in the provinces of Quebec and Ontario. I refer, of course, to the position of the textile industry.
During the course of the brief remarks which I intend to make I should like to put forward to the minister and the government certain suggestions which I believe are of a constructive nature. I would ask the minister and the government to give consideration to these suggestions.
It has been stated repeatedly in this house and outside that Quebec's big, important textile industry is struggling hard to "hang on".

This statement is contained in an article by Eric Richter in the Financial Post of February 4. The following is stated therein:
For most of the province's 370-odd mills and establishments, 1960 results were disappointing, even when measured against the "lean" years the textile industry has had in the past decade.
As the house knows, evidence was given before the manpower committee of the other place by the president of the primary textiles institute who stated that imported textiles cost 35,000 jobs in the Canadian textile industry last year and that the situation is going to get worse unless something is done.
In this morning's Globe and Mail there appears an article which I am sure the Minister of Finance, the Minister of Trade and Commerce and the Minister of National Revenue have seen. The article is entitled:
Looking into business
The quiet Canadians were not exactly wasting their time.
I shall read but one paragraph. It is bylined "Hong Kong, March 21" and reads:
Finance Minister Donald Fleming's special Hong Kong mission aimed at persuading local textile manufacturers to limit their exports to Canada was doomed to failure even before it started. Yet It shouldn't be thought that the mission was a waste of time. Mr. Fleming sent to Hong Kong the director-general of the international and economic affairs branch, S. S. Reisman, and two colleagues. Canada's trade commissioners in Hong Kong, C. M. Forsyth-Smith and C. J. Small also assisted the three Ottawa delegates in their talks with local exporters, textile producers and government officials.
Although the Canadians did not convince Hong Kong's textile men that they should impose voluntary restraints, both sides at least came to grips with a problem that is causing increasing concern in Canada's textile industry. Despite a huge markup at the Canadian end, Hong Kong shirts, for example, often sell at half or two thirds of the price of Canadian-made shirts.
There is no doubt that the situation is a very serious one. That fact has been emphasized by the recent closing of two mills at Grand'Mere-the Grand'Mere Knitting Company mill and the Grand'Mere Handcraft Company mill-as revealed in an article published in La Presse on March 15 entitled "Decision Brutale a Grand'Mere". The two mills closed down and put out of work no less than 300 employees who are now looking for other employment. Of course, the committee knows *-and I need not repeat it-that mills in the vicinity of Hamilton, three mills in the community of Cornwall and mills elsewhere have closed down. My purpose in rising this afternoon is not to stress that aspect of the situation but rather to offer the minister some ideas of a constructive nature. I do not pose as an expert; indeed, I am far from being an expert on this very important question but there are others who are experts. I have been in consultation with someone who is an expert in this field. I have spent some time
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with him, and any credit that there may be for the suggestions I am about to put on record must go to this individual and not to me.


Mr. Bell (Carleion):: Would the hon. gentleman say who he is?


Lionel Chevrier: I would rather not do so, but I should be happy to give the hon. parliamentary secretary the pamphlets which I have in mind and which have been written by him. This individual has written three pamphlets on this important subject. The first is entitled: "What the Canadian Textile Industry can Produce which it is not now Producing". The second is called: "How the Canadian Textile Industry can Compete with Imports". The third is entitled: "How the Canadian Textile Industry can Export". These are three pamphlets which I shall be glad at any time to show to the Minister of Finance, the Minister of Trade and Commerce, the Minister of National Revenue or their parliamentary secretaries for them to consider. As I said earlier, any credit for the suggestions contained in them should go to this individual and to nobody else, if they are found to be sound.
I have attempted to summarize as briefly as possible the main contents of these pamphlets. It is, of course, impossible in the 15 or 20 minutes at my disposal to give a complete summary of what is contained in these briefs, but I should like to put on record the main suggestions which are contained therein because I believe they are worthy of careful consideration.
The primary textile industry in Canada ranks second among the manufacturing industries of this country. No one in this committee, I am sure, will dispute the fact that this industry has fallen on very hard times in recent years. Even though some of the new textile companies may be efficient, there is an evident need for more co-ordination of effort on the part of all the component parts of the textile industry. For example, there is a need for better marketing techniques, more imaginative processing, better and greatly increased research methods, more investigation of new projects and a firmer will to export. All of these ideas need to permeate the Canadian textile industry.
Because the industry is so important to the Canadian economy, one might have thought that the Department of Trade and Commerce would already have taken steps to bring about some of this co-ordination. However, this appears not to be the case. I make this statement knowing full well that the Minister of Trade and Commerce called a conference of all the trade commissioners here in Canada. Whether or not there were

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present experts or representatives of the textile industry I am unable to say. However, I do not believe there was any decision on the part of those who were convened in the office of the minister on that occasion to seek to encourage the export of textile goods from this country. It may be that the new productivity council which was established recently by the government will provide an agency allowing the necessary co-ordination to be done. However, from the composition and the limited terms of reference of the productivity council it does not appear likely that this would be so.
I should like now to make a specific suggestion that the government should take the lead in bringing together various members of the textile industry and assisting them in the formation of a textile co-ordinating council. That is one of the many suggestions recommended in these three briefs. Some of the functions of this council would be as follows:
(a)	The investigation of better or cheaper sources of raw materials and the study of their applications.
(b)	Preparation of a detailed study of all existing textile processes from preparatory operations through blending, weaving, knitting, felting, dyeing, and finishing with a view to improving the quality and versatility of the end products.
(c)	Improvement of merchandising, starting with accurate labelling and proceeding through consumer education.
(d)	Continuous research in the field of development of new fibres; detailed studies of their properties and limitations.
(e)	Encouraging industry to develop new techniques necessary to fully utilize newly developed synthetic fibres.
(f)	Analysis of consumer demands in development of products which are custom-built to meet these demands.
(g)	Collection and indexing of technical and statistical data on all phases of the textile industry in all parts of the world.
(h)	Perhaps the council could consider the organization and maintenance of a Canadian textile museum containing representative samples of all available textile products.
(j) The council could act as technical adviser to the government and legislation pertaining to the textile industry. The council should develop very close relationship with the Department of Trade and Commerce.
The need, therefore, for this co-ordinating body seems to be painfully evident. The fact that the industry has difficulty in competing with imports indicates that development work on new products is far behind, and for that reason I strongly urge the government to give serious consideration to the formation of a textile co-ordinating council. It seems to

me this might be done either separately or as a subcommittee of the productivity council, although because of the importance of the industry it would perhaps be far better if it were established separately and apart from the productivity council.
There are in addition two areas in which this co-ordinating council could be of great assistance to the textile industry and I should like to further elaborate on this matter. The first is the encouragement of the industry to do research into new products and to use the resources of Canada in manufacturing these new products. One illustration of the type of research I envisage is this. It stands to reason that we should use the great amount of wood pulp that we possess in this country. This could be done if we were to manufacture viscose. If we were to blend 20 per cent viscose with 80 per cent cotton this would mean better products and more use of Canadian resources. The production of the necessary amount of viscose would provide for thousands of Canadian workers and employment resulting from the use of our natural resources in imaginative processes. This ought to be, surely, our first aim.
I have before me a note indicating that we use in Canada about 300,000 bales of cotton a year. I am informed that if we were to mix 80 per cent of that baled cotton with 20 per cent viscose this would mean that an industry such as Courtauld's (Canada) Limited, for instance, would have to produce about 30 million pounds more viscose. It would mean thousands more jobs in substituting the viscose for the baled cotton.
I am also informed that there may be other areas in Canada where viscose might be produced. If after a careful study by the textile council as to whether or not this can be done-and I am informed from authoritative sources that it can be done- then here is a method by which not only can competition be better met but, more particularly, additional jobs can be obtained.
It has also been pointed out to me that in the opening of the vast regions of our north country we are faced with the problem of building roads on muskeg. We ought to investigate woven and non-woven fabrics which could be instrumental in overcoming the peculiar difficulties connected with this problem in the north country. In that area there are also a number of other needs to which the textile industry could contribute a solution. For example the present tents could be improved with the thermo insulation built into the fibre. Arctic clothing will have to have the insulation built into the fibre and into the woven, non-woven or

knitted fabric. There are many other imaginative ways in which the textile industry could develop products for the north.
The number of new products which could be utilized staggers the imagination. Let me give the committee a few illustrations. As the committee knows, there is a great need for light-weight strong filaments, fibres, yarns, threads and rope. There is also no chenille to speak of produced in Canada. There is a need for various types of chenille which can be produced with blends of cotton, wool or silk. Such a product has innumerable applications never before produced in Canada such as knitted chenille outer wear, head squares, shawls, sport shawls, travelling plaids, chenille bathing and beach wear.
In the field of woollens and worsteds, by blending with high priced fibres like vicuna, camel hair, kemp and mohair products of an exceptionally high quality can be produced. New products like woollen chenille and woollen and silk-blended chenille which have innumerable uses for fine outer wear are possible.
As the committee knows, in the province of Quebec there is a special situation. There are in that province skilled workers who for many years have been directing their attention to a large number of articles that have a particular attraction in the province. There are, for example, wonderful local products the market for which could be greatly enlarged. I refer to such things as blankets, hooked rugs, shawls, felt slippers and felt skirts. None of these products is now being merchandised nearly enough.
Another product is the very popular Quebec blanket. This is a typical Quebec small industry. Some of these blankets have wonderful designs and there is a fantastic potential market for them with the proper merchandising. Long range policies for these articles in the province of Quebec should be given consideration and in order to give them the sales interest which they should have, we must be ahead of everyone else. We must have good research and consideration must be given to creating attractive designs and selling these goods in quantity in other countries. How is it, for instance, that articles made in Switzerland such as woollen sweaters and blankets are being sold here sometimes in greater numbers than are our own products simply because of the design?
If it were possible, as these pamphlets indicate, to create a newer design which would bring out, for instance, the Quebec folklore and which would lay emphasis on the art of the province of Quebec, it would then be
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quite possible to sell an attractive article which would compete here and in other countries.
In the field of plied fabrics there are again many products which should be investigated including items which have never been produced in Canada such as portable kayaks and other portable boats, diving suits and improved anti-gravity suits. These items immediately come to mind.
The second point I wish to elaborate slightly is the fact that there are great potential export markets for these typical Canadian products. Here I am willing to pay tribute to the Department of Trade and Commerce. It is encouraging to see that department is livening up in the area of increased Canadian exports. The textile industry badly needs similar stimulus for export. It urgently requires all types of information relating to exports such as foreign market conditions, shipping requirements, foreign prices and the like.
If the government would take the initiative in setting up this textile co-ordinating council which has been recommended, most of the information needed to stimulate export could be made readily available to the textile industry. By integrating the components of the textile industry in this country, the textile co-ordinating council could make a great contribution to the vitality of this major Canadian industry and could provide jobs for thousands of Canadian workers.
All I ask of the government and of the Minister of Finance and his colleagues who I am sure are interested in this industry, is that consideration be given to the suggestions I have made and to the contents of these three pamphlets to which I have referred. I urge them to consider the suggestions of an expert in this field who has had a great deal to do with matters such as this and who has already been in communication with a large number of textile industries in the central part of Canada. If that consideration is given I would hope the government will see fit, having regard to all the circumstances, to establish a textile council which would coordinate all activities of that industry.
(Translation):


Mr. Pigeon:: Mr. Chairman, would the hon. member for Laurier (Mr. Chevrier) allow me a question? As an alternative, would the hon. member support an increase in the tariff covering the textile industry?


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Chairman, I have already answered that question about a week ago during a discussion in the house, when I put on Hansard five or six suggestions which, in

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my view, would help the textile industry. A raise in the tariff was not included in those proposals.
(Text):


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Chairman, the speech made this afternoon by the Leader of the Opposition, it seems to me, touches the most important issue before parliament at this time, because the implications of the report presented by the governor of the Bank of Canada touch the heart of the major problem that confronts us in Canada. I join in the remarks he has made today and support them because of the apparent reluctance of the Minister of Finance to deal with them. Certainly this reluctance has been displayed not only during this debate but whenever the question has been raised.
The question takes on added importance in the light of the disclosure yesterday and the formal release this morning of the figures as to the present unemployment situation. These figures show that our labour force is down
33.000	compared with the previous reported period. It is the first decrease, by the way, since 1958. They show employment down
59.000	compared with the previous reported period. It also indicates that it is up only
25.000	over the figure of a year ago. In addition, of course, there is the dismal news that the present unemployment figure in our country on the basis of the lowest accepted standard, that of the dominion bureau of statistics, is 719,000.
This is a record figure, and it would seem to me that when the governor of the Bank of Canada deals with the capacity of this nation to provide full employment the government, and in particular the Minister of Finance, will be remiss if the statement made so ably today by the Leader of the Opposition is not answered. The unemployment statistics establish also that they are higher by 121,000 than they were a year ago, for the same period, and that they represent an increase of 26,000 over the previous month.
I am happy to note that the increase is not as great as one had been led to believe from the indices. The satisfaction one derives from the present figure is certainly less than one might have hoped. I would hope it is an indication that forces of growth are present that might lead to an end of the recession but from what we now know there is no reason to believe that this necessarily will be accompanied by a reduction on a proportionate basis of unemployment itself.
It seems to me that this is an issue to which the Minister of Finance cannot fail to address himself. He can take the position that he does not propose to answer the observations made by the Leader of the Opposition. He can take the position that the

report of the governor of the Bank of Canada is a matter only for parliament. He can take the position that he refuses to say whether or not he is prepared to support the move to have the governor of the Bank of Canada appear before the banking and commerce or any other committee, designed for that purpose by this house. He can take all of these positions. He can sit mute and refuse to make any acknowledgement whatsoever; but if that is the position that he will ultimately take, all I would say, is that he will warrant the criticisms made a few weeks ago by the Toronto Globe and Mail with regard to what he had to say on a matter not unrelated to this question.
If the observations made by the governor of the Bank of Canada do not stand in the position of opposing the policies of the government, they at least stand in the position that there are no known declarations made by any of the ministers of the government, more particularly the Minister of Finance, that support the contentions made by the governor of the Bank of Canada. The government, when it is confronted with the problem of unemployment, now says that the responsibility lies on labour and on management. That is not what the governor of the Bank of Canada says. This is not the only inconsistency between the position taken by the government and that taken by the governor of the Bank of Canada, as the Leader of the Opposition indicated in a number of references he made to the recent report of the governor of the bank. I add these further observations of the governor of the Bank of Canada. As found on page 23 of his report to parliament he has this to say at the bottom of the page:
If I may quote from a recent speech by the governor of the Bank of England, "... A theme which I have myself argued for many years past is that monetary policy cannot cure all ills, and that it is a great mistake to expect it to carry loads which should be carried in other fields of government policy."
That statement is approved by the governor of the Bank of Canada and he then goes on to say:
Lord Cobbold was speaking in this context about the problems of restraining the excesses of a boom, but his theme applies with even greater force to the problems of overcoming recession and promoting a satisfactory rate of sustained economic growth.
Does the Minister of Finance agree with that statement? On page 14 of his report the governor says:
At a time of relatively high unemployment in Canada, it is difficult to avoid the conclusion that the continuing very large deficit in the balance of payments is not only disadvantageous in itself but is indicative of an excessive capital inflow as well as structural weaknesses in the Canadian economy which result in excessive aggregate spending on goods and services provided from abroad

to the detriment of the production of goods and services of a similar character in Canada.


Mr. Lambert:: That was your argument too.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I refer now to pages 15 and 16, and I invite the vigilant member for Edmonton West to pay attention to these words. The governor has this to say:
Analysis of our situation seems to me to indicate that the approach to higher employment and output-
I would hope that the Minister of Finance would find it desirable to listen to what is being said.
-should be through measures designed to reduce the large deficit in our current account balance of payments, and through increases in spending of a selective character likely to increase production in Canada, rather than through measures designed to raise the level of total spending by Canadians.
I call the minister's attention to these words.
I am sure that there are many more possible ways of setting up incentives directed towards these goals than is generally realized. One would hope for the most imaginative and thorough canvass of the possibilities and widespread discussion by those who are interested.
I would assume that among those who are interested would be the Minister of Finance and the government of Canada. The governor concludes that paragraph by saying:
Ultimate decisions must rest with the appropriate governmental authorities in accordance with their best assessment of what the national interest and welfare requires.
That statement, the other statements I have quoted and those put on the record by the Leader of the Opposition indicate that the governor of the Bank of Canada does not, and properly so, take responsibility for anything other than monetary policy. He says the monetary policy by itself cannot provide full employment. He then goes on to establish that he, as governor of the Bank of Canada, believes there are within this nation capacities and instruments by which we can achieve full employment. We are asking for the opportunity to ascertain from the governor of the Bank of Canada the details of his remedies. Once we have ascertained what those details are, we want to find out whether or not the government of Canada agrees with them. In that event, we want to find out why the government of Canada has not adopted the proposals made by the governor of the Bank of Canada. We should like to interrogate the governor in order to ascertain whether or not the government has, in fact, sought to make an appreciation of the value of the recommendations made by the governor.
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The governor of the Bank of Canada is an important official under our system of government. However, he is not a sovereignty, in himself, as the Minister of Finance suggested some time ago when he divorced the government of any responsibility whatsoever for the conduct and formulation of monetary policy. But the governor of the Bank of Canada has been given by parliament important powers with regard to monetary policy that admittedly he primarily exercises. This does not mean, of course, that the government has no responsibility in the field of monetary policy. The governor has not been talking about monetary policy. In the main he has been talking from one end of Canada to the other about matters which agitate us in this house and which have to do with our capacity as a free enterprise nation to bring about full employment. If the Bank of Canada is responsible to parliament, it is the duty of this government to see to it that we as individual members of parliament are given an opportunity, through a parliamentary committee or otherwise, to obtain the answers to the questions I have outlined, which are among those that we would want to put to the governor of the Bank of Canada.
I join with the Leader of the Opposition in the stand he has taken today, as I did yesterday, for two reasons. First of all, when we are talking about unemployment in this house we are generally made to confront the Minister of Labour. I have always taken the position that the Minister of Labour-and I do not speak of him in a personal way-is not competent to deal exclusively with the question of unemployment, nor is his department capable of doing so by the nature of its organization. Unemployment is a matter that primarily rests on the doorstep of the Department of Finance, in association with certain other departments of government including the Department of Labour. The second reason is that we are entitled to know, before the committee disposes of the request for interim supply, whether or not the government proposes to by-pass parliament and appoint a royal commission, as was done two years ago in the United Kingdom.
There was justification for the appointment of a royal commission in Great Britain two years ago. The terms of reference given to Lord Radcliffe were altogether different from the terms of reference that arise out of any situation in this country at this time. If a royal commission were designated by the government of Canada to deal with monetary policy, we would be precluded in practice from taking any steps to examine the governor of the Bank of Canada with regard to monetary policy, assuming that the terms of reference of the commission were
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so confined. I do not believe we would be so precluded from a constitutional point of view. I want to say this now to the Minister of Finance and to the government. If that is the intention-


William Moore Benidickson: That would be a trick.


Paul Joseph James Martin: -that would be not only a trick but it would be a violation of the privileges of parliament itself. If that is done I want to say to the government that we will not regard ourselves as being precluded from examining the governor on matters that are not exclusively referred to the royal commission.
There is no reason why, in the event of a royal commission being appointed, we would not be free to summon the governor of the Bank of Canada before a committee of this house and to ask him to divulge to this parliament and to this country the plans about which he has been speaking in a general way from one end of this country to the other for the past year and a quarter. The government cannot hope, therefore, to use this device to free it from a responsibility which now rests on its shoulders, and in particular on those of the Minister of Finance.


Norman Platt Lambert: Are you setting up your own Aunt Sally?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I would hope that my hon. friend would be more interested in this subject than in making these inane interruptions which give an indication of the quality of his mind. I had always understood the quality of his mind was higher than these interruptions would indicate.
This is an important matter. This is a matter that goes right to the fundamental issue facing us at the moment. The governor of the Bank of Canada says it is possible to have full employment with varying levels of capital investment and savings, as the history of many countries will show. He made that statement on January 17 when speaking to the annual conference of the business paper editors association in Ottawa. The following day, January 18, the Toronto Globe and Mail reported the governor of the bank in these terms:
"I venture the proposition that it is not healthy and will not be fruitful or successful for a country such as Canada to pursue any other course than to stand on its own feet, finance its own development out of its own savings, and refrain from trying to achieve a rate of economic growth in excess of what its own best efforts can support," he said.
Is that the policy of the government of Canada? We are entitled to know that. We are entitled to know whether or not the Minister of Finance and the governor are in disagreement on this fundamental question. Does the Minister of Finance agree with the

statement of the governor of the Bank of Canada as reported on February 4, 1961, when he said:
It seems to me only common sense . . . that no price is too great for the community as a whole to pay in order to achieve full production and reduce unemployment to the lowest possible level-[DOT]
Does the government agree with that statement? Does the government agree with that recommendation made by the governor of the Bank of Canada to reduce unemployment to its lowest possible level?
Does the government agree with the speech made by the governor of the Bank of Canada in St. John's, Newfoundland, on January 31, 1951, when he said the nation as a whole suffers real economic loss, and it is an avoidable economic loss, in addition to the personal loss and frustration of those particular persons who are seeking work and unable to find it? Does the government agree with that statement? When the governor of the Bank of Canada says this, he must have some reason for doing so. We want to know what his reason is.
In the other place today-


Donald Methuen Fleming: Order.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I am entitled to make this reference, and I think that my hon. friend will acknowledge it. I am entitled to say what took place, not what was said in the other place today. One of the committees of that house has decided today to call the governor of the Bank of Canada before one of its committees. That is what the majority of that place had decided to do.


Donald Methuen Fleming: No.


Mr. Marlin (Essex Easl):: My hon. friend says "No", but they have decided to call the governor of the Bank of Canada. I would have thought my hon. friend's intelligence- I do not mean his own intelligence but the intelligence of his department-would have informed him on this fact.
We in this house are the elected representatives of the people. We are the individuals who faced the Canadian nation in 1958 and asked the people to elect us as their representatives and spokesmen in this house. The hon. gentlemen sitting opposite said when they confronted the Canadian electorate that they had a solution to this problem. Because of the fact that we are the elected representatives, the governor of the Bank of Canada, notwithstanding whatever commitment he may have given in that other place, should on that account not be precluded from coming to a committee of the House of Commons and giving us the opportunity of determining the questions which I have put forward today in supporting the position of the Leader of

the Opposition. Then, too, we could examine that most regrettable statement of the Minister of Finance when he accepted no responsibility whatsoever for monetary policy-


Donald Methuen Fleming: Order.


Paul Joseph James Martin: -which represented a position of abdication of government. My hon. friend says "Order". Why does he say "Order"?


Donald Methuen Fleming: The hon. member is referring to a previous debate in the house dealing with the question.


Peter Francis Martin: Certainly that does not preclude me from making reference to what the Minister of Finance said in respect of monetary policy.
This is the most important issue that has developed in our country in the last few months. The governor of the Bank of Canada is publicly on record as taking a position different from and opposed to the position taken by the government of Canada in the matter of unemployment. That fact having been established, under our system of responsible government, the government cannot sit by without making a reply. We are entitled to have, before this item is disposed of, a reply from the Minister of Finance. Surely we are entitled to expect, as are the Canadian people, that the minister will deal with the statements in the Bank of Canada report, that he will say whether it is possible at the present time to develop policies that will provide full employment as has been asserted by the governor of the Bank of Canada. If the government persists in being immobile and inarticulate in the matter, then it warrants the criticism that is being levelled against it.
The Minister of Finance is a man who I know takes his public duties seriously. Much as I may criticize him now and may continue to criticize him, I would not ever deny that fact; but he will greatly disappoint me and many other people in this country, who have great faith in his integrity and in the honourable way in which he pursues his assignment, if he does not reply to the statements which have been made. He knows the implications of Canadian constitutional history and of British constitutional history. Surely he cannot ignore the bank's report which is a condemnation of the government of Canada, expressed in able and dignified terms, but not lacking on that account in cogency or pointedness. We in turn cannot escape our responsibility any longer, in allowing the two sovereignties, as the Minister of Finance implied the other day, to co-exist in this country. There is only one sovereignty 90205-6-205i
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in Canada, and that is the people represented by constituted authority, the government of the day. There can be no other authority. The Minister of Finance or the government cannot allow a public official, no matter who that official may be, to parade from one end of this country to another enunciating publicly economic doctrines which he believes should form government policy. It is wrong to allow this to go on without intervention by the government, or any discipline being imposed. The government must affirm that the governor of the bank cannot go on in that manner, and stay within his present assignment if these views are persisted in and publicly declared. For the minister or the government to take any other course is, on the part of this government, an abdication of its responsibilities. This is making the government look silly and is putting it in a subservient position.
If the governor of the Bank of Canada is entitled to express views that are contrary to those expressed by the government of Canada why then are the military staff, the air chief, and the naval chief not allowed to express opinions in public or before Canadian clubs, boards of trade or universities? That of course would be a most unfortunate permission to extend to any military officer and would be a violation of our concept of government. That is exactly what is being done at the present time in an equally important field-the economic field-by the governor of the Bank of Canada. Not one word has been said by this government, to the knowledge of the Canadian people or this parliament, as to whether the government has expressed its view with respect to the propriety of this course. The governor of the Bank of Canada is a very able man and has been well trained for the high post he occupies. He must know the extent of his authority. He must know that his authority is limited to monetary policy. If he persists, as he does, in making these declarations on such a wide economic front, he must be doing it for a purpose. I suggest that purpose is clear. He is concerned about the results of government policy and particularly the policy of the Department of Finance and the consequences of those policies. He must feel that he is serving his country best by making these declarations which are tantamount to warnings to the Canadian people. What other conclusion can one come to?


Donald Methuen Fleming: If that is what the governor is seeking to do, does the hon. member approve of such a course of action?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I certainly do not approve. I am stating that I do not believe

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that under our system of government it is right or proper for a government official, in areas of authority not specifically extended to him by parliament, to take in public a position that puts him in disagreement with the government of the day. That is the position I take. What I have just been saying is that if the governor takes that position, he must be doing it because he feels that, with his knowledge as governor of the Bank of Canada, he owes it to the country to speak in this way and thereby to warn the people about the consequences of present government policy. That can be the only conclusion one can come to when these things are said by a man so reasonable and so well equipped for his job as is the governor of the Bank of Canada.


The Deputy Chairman (Mr. Rea):: Order. I must advise the hon. member that his time has expired.


Frank Howard: Mr. Chairman, not being of the same political complexion as one might assume the governor of the Bank of Canada to be, I cannot be so laudatory of him as was the hon. member for Essex East. However, we do know that ever since this government took office there has been a growing conflict between the governor of the Bank of Canada, the Minister of Finance and government policy generally. There has been a growing desire on the part of the government to abdicate their responsibility in the fiscal and monetary field whenever they deem it expedient to do so.
We can recall those short days when we had a minority government before the election of 1958. During that period of time the Minister of Finance, who was not then the minister, and some of his colleagues campaigned on the basis of high interest rates, how they would fix the economy, how parliament would again have sole jurisdiction, and things of that nature. Hardly had the ink dried on these comments and the election been finished when the Minister of Justice, who was then minister of citizenship and immigration or the acting minister, came to British Columbia and attended a series of meetings.
One of these meetings was held on the campus of the University of British Columbia. The minister renounced all responsibility in the monetary field on the part of his government and himself. He said that everything that had been going wrong was really the fault of the Bank of Canada and that the government itself had no responsibility. Perhaps what he was saying indirectly was that the government really had no interest in tackling this major question of monetary policy and its effect upon and relationship

to the economy. The Minister of Finance on various occasions has been engaged in making similar comments.
As I mentioned, Mr. Chairman, one of the key-note cries of the Tories before the 1957 election-I do not think we need dwell on them too long-concerned the question of tight money and how with a tight money policy the Liberals had dragged the economy into a recession or a rolling readjustment, or whatever phrase was used. It was said that all we had to do to solve all these problems was to elect the hon. member for Eglin-ton and his friends who would then become the government and would straighten it all out. But we have seen nothing straightened out. In reality the position has worsened, and it worsens as each day passes. To confirm this statement we have only to witness the figures Which were released prematurely yesterday but which officially came to the attention of hon. members this morning.
At this time it appears that the government does not want to do anything about this situation. The Minister of Finance knows full well that the higher interest rates which he himself imposed foisted upon the Canadian taxpayers an extra burden to the tune of millions and millions of dollars and in reality constitute a drain on the purchasing power of the people of this nation.
I do not understand how on the one hand the minister can endorse this method of draining off the taxpayer's dollar while on the other hand his colleagues say, "Go out and spend yourself into prosperity". How this government can reconcile those two approaches is beyond my understanding. If ever schizophrenia existed in government, it exists here. We all know that this government spent so many years in opposition that it really has not much of a clue on how to conduct the affairs of state. It has so mismanaged the affairs that come under its jurisdiction, especially in the monetary field, that we have existing the condition that was announced today in so far as the number of unemployed is concerned.
Perhaps I may refer to that matter. The figures indicate that in my own province nearly 14 per cent of the work force is unemployed. This may not mean much to the Minister of Finance, who comes from Toronto and has relatively little concern or knowledge about what happens in other parts of the nation. Perhaps Ontario, with 8.6 per cent of its work force unemployed, seems rather insignificant to the minister. However, the figure is 13.9 per cent in British Columbia and it is higher in the maritimes. This is something that should concern the Minister of Finance more than it does.

We know there is conflict between the governor of the Bank of Canada and the Minister of Finance about what should be done, one taking a course of action that is in reality critical of the government in office and the other, namely the Minister of Finance, sitting idly by, engrossed in some book or other and not too much concerned about these matters.
We have listened to a very severe and biting indictment of the Minister of Finance and his government delivered by the hon. member who just resumed his seat, the hon. member for Assiniboia and others. These criticisms have been made not only today; they have been made on other occasions, both inside and outside the house. There have been complaints about the silly and childish way in which this government and this minister approach the question of our economy.
These are justifiable complaints when we have 700,000 of our potential working force sitting idly around, not knowing where their next dollar is coming from, while the Minister of Finance also sits idly around and obviously does not worry too much about it. "After all, spring came just the other day; there is no need to do anything about it," is the approach of this government. Perhaps the Minister of Finance should advise his colleague the Minister of Labour, to change the "Do It Now" slogan to "Why Wait For Summer; Do It Now".
In the minds of the minister and his colleagues this sort of thing might help, and this is the fullest extent to which this government is prepared to go. Their attitude is, "Let somebody else do it." So far as concrete and definite action to deal with the unemployment situation is concerned, this government has not the faintest idea what to do.
The Minister of Finance sits quietly in his seat asking the infrequent question and commenting occasionally. He sits here while all this controversy is raging as it has raged particularly today. I think that is only another indication of how lightly he takes his responsibility toward the unemployed of this nation.
I think the Minister of Finance should have been one of the first in the house to rise and announce specifically what is government policy in this field, or what is going to occur and how they are going to deal with the questions raised by the governor of the Bank of Canada in his annual report.
Are the government going to arrange, as they should, to open up these documents and the policies to the public eye? Are the government going to approach the question by allowing the annual report of the governor of the Bank of Canada to be made available for study by the banking and commerce
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committee or some other special committee? Is this what is going to happen?
What is the approach of the government in so far as interest rates are concerned? What about the need, if it exists-and I think the need is very quickly approaching-for a new bond conversion program to get the minister out of the difficulty he got himself into a couple of years ago? These are serious and important matters. More than 700,000 people are tramping the streets in the middle of winter-even though spring is here according to the calendar it is not, in fact, here-not knowing whether government policies designed to assist them are going through. For the Minister of Finance to sit quietly in his place and decline to announce what is going to be done is an indication of the lightness with which he regards the economic difficulties of the nation. One of the things which I think must happen before we go much farther into the motion before us, is for the minister to rise and make some rather extensive announcements of policy and the like in connection with these matters which have been raised today and on other occasions.
We are not just using words and talking about statistics and pieces of paper and about whether or not they were supposed to be released this morning but were delivered inadvertently by a messenger to somebody else than the one intended. That is not what is at issue. The subject matter here is 719,000 people who are out of work because we have in office a bungling government without the vaguest idea of what to do and one which, even if it had such an idea, does not possess the courage to stand up and make announcements of its plans in the house.
It is a quarter to six by the clock. Perhaps what little the minister has to announce he might be able to announce in 15 minutes. It is possible his statement could be completed by that time. I think that is the only course open to the minister at the moment. Otherwise we are justified in arriving even more firmly at the conclusion that the hon. gentleman's interest in the unemployed is really not what he would have us believe.


Charles Edward Rea: Shall the resolution carry?


Frank Howard: Before it carries, I think the Minister of Finance has a duty and responsibility which he cannot evade. I think it is up to him to stand up and make a statement about what the government intends to do in this particular field. I think that opportunity should be afforded him.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I have the duty and the responsibility to tell some hon. members that, in speaking as they have spoken

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this afternoon in a manner which, I think, is virtually an abuse of the proper procedure on a motion for interim supply, they are creating a situation where we may not be able to get out the cheques for the mid-April payments, as we wish to do, because parliament has decided that we shall be rising next Wednesday and not returning until April 10.


Paul Joseph James Martin: A point of order-


Donald Methuen Fleming: It is another bogus one.


Peter Francis Martin: The minister has no right to make a remark of that kind. He has now the opportunity of having this matter disposed of forthwith. Instead, he is making an imputation directed against all those who have taken part in this debate.


Mr. Broome:: That is not a point of order.


Peter Francis Martin: It is a point of order, and I resent the imputation of the Minister of Finance that because we are discussing important public issues we are thereby open to the charge that we are preventing certain people in this country from receiving their remuneration.


Ernest James Broome: That is exactly what you are doing.


Peter Francis Martin: It is not the case. This government could decide right now to relieve itself of its present parliamentary obligation. If there is any delay, it will be due to the intransigence of this government.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I should be obliged, Mr. Chairman, as I think would all members of this committee, if you would tell the hon. member for Essex East that he abuses the privileges of this house by raising bogus points of order. He offends against the rules at all times, and I think it is time he was rebuked by the Chair for so doing.
Having had my time taken by this bogus point of order, may I return to the point I was making. For years, with the exception only of these very recent years, these motions for interim supply passed very quickly. It was an extraordinary thing if there was any discussion on them at all. In recent times the opposition has chosen to debate, on this motion, any issue at all. This afternoon the Leader of the Opposition and one other hon. member talked about airing grievances. Mr. Chairman, they talked as though this were a motion to resolve the house into committee of supply. We are in committee of supply now, so that kind of procedure is clearly not the kind of procedure in which we are engaged at this time.
When the announcement was made that we would be asking for a vote of interim
[Mr. Fleming (Eglinton).l
supply this afternoon, I think all hon. members were well aware that the house had decided to rise next Wednesday and not to return until April 10 and that there is some other important business which must be transacted before we rise. There is to be dealt with the whole of those final supplementary estimates consisting of more than 100 items, and if hon. members choose on occasions of this kind to talk about every item under the sun and to raise all kinds of political issues for which there will be ample occasion in the ordinary course of parliamentary business for full discussion, it is inevitable that we shall not be able to get this vote of interim supply through before the time appointed to rise next Wednesday. I have to tell the committee that if this should happen there will be delay in getting out the cheques for the mid-April payments. The responsibility in that regard will have to rest with those who have taken advantage of this motion today and the ruling made by the Chair last year to bring into this discussion today about every kind of political issue under the sun.
I am not asking for a ruling from the Chair in view of the ruling which was made last year. I protested against this kind of procedure last year, but the Chair did not uphold the point I raised. I therefore cannot do anything about it, and if hon. members wish to bring in political issues and talk about everything under the sun I presume nothing can be done to stop them. But I do point out to them that there will be proper opportunity for the discussion of all these various matters which have been raised today. We have the estimates of all the departments before us to be considered in committee of supply with the exception of one department, the Department of Citizenship and Immigration whose estimates have been fully reviewed and passed. If we do not get this vote through I point out the inevitable results with respect to these mid-April cheques.
I would remind hon. members that this is a vote of interim supply and that I have given the time-honoured undertaking that nothing done here today by way of approving interim supply for two months will affect or abridge the rights of hon. members to discuss these items when they are reached in the ordinary course in committee. So everybody has his full rights. It is not necessary that hon. members should seize this opportunity to drag up all kinds of political issues. If that sort of thing happens we shall simply have to accept the fact that we cannot get these motions through. If there is to be no limit at all on the right of hon. members to discuss everything under the sun, we are in

a chaotic condition with regard to such motions as this. I appeal to the committee to have regard to the realities of the situation and to pass this simple motion knowing that the rights of members to discuss any question that is relevant to any item in committee are preserved.


Frank Howard: I wonder if I could deal with one point which the minister has raised. I refer to the accusation that members in the opposition parties are responsible for delay. I would point out to the minister that it is the responsibility of the minister himself to decide if and when it is necessary to bring in an interim supply motion. It is his responsibility, and all he is doing now is admitting how delinquent this government is in its management of the bringing of motions before parliament. The minister knew a long time ago he would need interim supply. The fault is his entirely for deliberately forestalling this request until practically the eve of the Easter recess so he could make accusations of the kind in which he has indulged. The minister's own delinquency is responsible for this situation. The hon. gentleman is entirely incapable of operating properly.
The minister brought forward supplementary estimates that have to be dealt with. Do you realize, Mr. Chairman, that this is the fifth set of supplementary estimates we have had since the estimates a year ago? Five times he found out how wrong he was about his budget.


Ernest James Broome: And five times the hon. member has made the same speech.


Frank Howard: Listen to this, my hon. friend from Vancouver South. Perhaps the Minister of Finance should also listen and learn how he is participating in the breach of a contract between the government and parliament. I refer hon. members to the citation in Beau-chesne's in which reference is made to breach of contract between the government and parliament and which reads-


Charles Edward Rea: Order. We are not
discussing supplementary estimates at the moment but interim supply.


Frank Howard: The minister raised the question of supplementary estimates and said it was necessary to deal with them before the Easter recess. I point out that he is guilty of a breach of contract between the government and parliament. This is the fifth time this has happened.


Charles Edward Rea: Order. We cannot have a debate on this subject.


Frank Howard: The minister stood in his place and levelled accusations against us with
Interim Supply
respect to his inability to write cheques and so on. He has admitted his own delinquency and inability to be Minister of Finance but he cannot rid himself of the responsibilities that are associated with that office.


Mr. Spencer:: The hon. member has just rid himself of an insulting speech.


Mr. Horner (Acadia):: All the hon. member's speeches are insulting.


Charles Edward Rea: Order.


Frank Howard: I am dealing with the insulting remarks and accusations of the minister. He makes accusations of this insulting nature against the opposition. There are 700,000 people out of work. What is the minister's policy? I realize it is difficult for the government to face up to this question. The government levels insulting accusations. The minister's insults have to be answered in this fashion. I am not worried about the insulting accusations of the hon. member for Essex West or anyone else. I only know that 13.9 per cent of the working force in British Columbia from where I come are tramping the streets at the moment wondering when this minister will in the field of monetary policy take action to help them.
Instead of helping, the minister gave a five-minute lecture on how he wants the rules to operate so he can curtail business and conduct the affairs of parliament in his own way. I say that parliament should stand up to the minister and show Canadians how arrogant, delinquent, silly and childish is this hon. gentleman.


William Moore Benidickson: Mr. Chairman, I wish to confess that I also felt the Minister of Finance had evaded the chief issues raised here this afternoon. The hon. gentleman raised a bogey when he suggested that any discussion on parliamentary procedure at this time and of this type was unusual.
I wish to draw to the attention of the minister his assertions when in opposition. As recently as 1957 during his last term sitting on this side in opposition, the minister took up six pages of Hansard in speechmaking at this stage of our proceedings.


Donald Methuen Fleming: On an occasioi when no undertaking was given, on the eve of an election.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Oh, oh.


William Moore Benidickson: I refer the hon. gentleman to page 2821 of Hansard of March 29,
1957.	The minister suggested that democracy might perhaps take a backward step because this parliament would not do its duty with respect to widows, orphans and civil servants. He suggested this would follow if we did

Interim Supply
not have an adequate parliamentary authorization. 1 refer the minister to his activities during the time when he was in opposition. The hon. gentleman did not say that to you, Mr. Chairman, earlier.
I also refer to the previous year, 1956, when in the same month we had a requirement for interim supply. I give the Conservative opposition of that day full credit. Hon. gentlemen at that time were not inactive nor did they in any way forsake their duties to the public. They properly took up debate at this stage. The record of that debate indicates that pages of Hansard were filled with speeches made by such well known hon. members as the present high commissioner in London, the former leader of the opposition, Mr. Drew. Speeches were also made by the present Minister of Trade and Commerce, the Postmaster General, the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources and other hon. gentlemen.
It is a well known and recognized privilege of hon. members of parliament, when a government asks for supply, to raise questions which they feel are proper in the interests of the Canadian public and no person has taken longer than has the Minister of Finance.


Charles Edward Rea: It being six o'clock, shall I rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Chairman, may I ask the committee again if it will pass this motion? Otherwise I am very greatly concerned about the results, as I indicated. Hon. members opposite have had their inning by now. They know that these items will be called in the committee of supply in due course. Surely we can have this resolution passed now, Mr. Chairman. The bill must follow. It must be passed in the Senate and must receive royal assent. If it does not do so along with all the other business that must be presented before parliament rises at six o'clock next Wednesday for the Easter recess, then the cheques for the payment of salaries, pensions and other obligations for mid-April are going to be delayed.


Charles Edward Rea: Shall the resolution carry?


Frank Howard: There are many questions-


Charles Edward Rea: Is the hon. member saying "No"?


Frank Howard: I did not say no; I just rose to speak but I see that it is six o'clock.


Charles Edward Rea: I asked if the resolution carried.


John (Jack) Henry Horner: The hon. member says no.


Mr. Matthews:: Mr. Chairman, do not beg
anything of the hon. member for Skeena.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Having regard to the importance of this matter, perhaps the hon. member for Skeena could complete his remarks in five minutes if the committee would be willing to sit on and pass the resolution in view of the urgency of it.


Charles Edward Rea: The hon. member calls it six o'clock.


Donald Methuen Fleming: It is my hope that the people of Canada will understand who are responsible for this.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Chairman, was it not agreed that the hon. member for Skeena would speak for five minutes?


Walter Franklyn Matthews: Do not beg that hon. member for anything.


Charles Edward Rea: The hon. member called it six o'clock unless he wishes to follow a different course.


Frank Howard: Six o'clock.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I hope that Hansard will show that the hon. member for Skeena said "six o'clock".


Frank Howard: Six o'clock.
Progress reported.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

William Moore Benidickson: Mr. Speaker, may I address a question to the house leader before inquiring about the business for tomorrow. Although last year we discussed interim supply about two days later than the date on which we are proceeding this year, would the leader of the house, in view of the remarks of the Minister of Finance concerning the importance of this matter, indicate whether or not it is proposed that an opportunity for debate on this question will be given early tomorrow? I ask because of course, some days will ensue before the end of the fiscal year.


Mr. Churchill:: The suggestion will be considered but at this moment I think the business as announced will stand. For tomorrow we will commence with item No. 7 on today's order paper, the resolution in the name of the Minister of Agriculture dealing with agricultural development, and that will be followed by the estimates of the Department of Agriculture.


[Stage Direction]
It being three minutes after six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[Stage Direction]
Thursday, March 23, 1981

[Stage Direction]
Third and fourth reports of standing committee on banking and commerce-Mr. Cathers.