1961-05-01

DELAYED FILING OF PARLIAMENTARY DOCUMENTS

['Mr. Speaker, the members of this group, in principle, are strongly opposed to committees meeting while the house is sitting. However, there are very special and particular circumstances in connection with the meetings of this committee. First of all, the committee recognizes the demands on the time of the Secretary of State for External Affairs. In fairness to him I think we must give some consideration to that matter and to his necessary absences from Ottawa on extremely important business.\nIn the second place, it is possible that during the period while this committee is sitting, some witnesses may wish to come and give evidence before the committee who have to travel a distance of over 2,000 miles. The committee thought we should have this provision in order to suit their convenience and also their pocketbooks in so obliging.']
Mr. Speaker:: Hon. members will find on their desks the report of debates and Routine Proceedings and Orders of the Day. I trust that hon. members will be content to put up with the inconvenience of not having these documents filed out of regard for the page boys and their schooling in these extended hours we are sitting. If hon. members will leave these papers on their desks at noon, they will be filed during the luncheon recess.



[Stage Direction]
Mr. H. O. While (Middlesex East) presented the second report of the standing committee on external affairs, and asked for unanimous consent to move that the report be concurred in.
Hon. Lionel Chevrier (Laurier):: Mr. Speaker, on that point I should like to indicate that it is going to be extremely difficult if not at some times impossible for those who sit on this side of the house to attend the meetings of this committee at the same time as the house is sitting, and I wish to draw your attention-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. Would the hon. member defer his remarks until a motion is made later on. The house may not give consent to the motion being moved. If it does the matter may be raised when the motion is moved.
Has the hon. member unanimous consent to make this motion?


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, I rise to reiterate what I said earlier in connection with this report which seeks the authority of the house to sit while the house is sitting. I say it is going to be nigh impossible for those of us who sit on this side to attend the meetings of this committee and I presume the meetings of other committees which will follow and which will sit while the house is sitting.
I have in my hand Votes and Proceedings for Friday, April 28, and for Tuesday, May 2. I see that there are no less than seven committees that will be sitting from 9.30 a.m. until 11 o'clock, I take it, and then afterward while the house is sitting. Certainly the committee for which authority is sought now will sit while the house is sitting. I wish to reiterate that this is not in keeping with the best traditions of the house.


Mr. Speaker:: Does the hon. member object to the motion being moved?


Lionel Chevrier: No, Mr. Speaker.


Mr. Speaker:: What the hon. member for Laurier has said will be taken into account in connection with the motion.


Mr. H. W. Herridge (Kootenay West):: Mr. Speaker, the members of this group, in principle, are strongly opposed to committees meeting while the house is sitting. However, there are very special and particular circumstances in connection with the meetings of this committee. First of all, the committee recognizes the demands on the time of the Secretary of State for External Affairs. In fairness to him I think we must give some consideration to that matter and to his necessary absences from Ottawa on extremely important business.
In the second place, it is possible that during the period while this committee is sitting, some witnesses may wish to come and give evidence before the committee who have to travel a distance of over 2,000 miles. The committee thought we should have this provision in order to suit their convenience and also their pocketbooks in so obliging.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


Hon. J. A. MacLean (Minister of Fisheries) moved: for leave to introduce Bill No. C-86, to amend 'the Fisheries Act.


Mr. Pickersgill:: Explain.


John Angus MacLean: Mr. Speaker, if any explanation is necessary at this time, may I say that this is a general revision of the Fisheries Act. It changes a number of the present sections. Among other things, it removes the power of a fisheries officer to act as a justice of the peace. It will amend the section which

Motions for Papers
categorically prohibits certain Canadian fishing vessels from fishing within the first nine miles of the high seas adjacent to Canadian territorial waters in the maritime provinces. It extends the application of the act to the high seas as far as Canadian vessels are concerned. It repeals certain sections that no longer have any practical application.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



FARM IMPROVEMENT LOANS ACT


Hon. Donald M. Fleming (Minister of Finance) moved: that the house go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following resolution, which has been recommended to the house by His Excellency:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to amend the Farm Improvement Loans Act to provide that the maximum amount of bank loans made during the period ending on the 30th day of June, 1962 shall be four hundred million dollars, an increase of one hundred million dollars.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 112-Mr. Regier:
For a copy of all reports and maps submitted to the government by the Fraser river board (formerly known as the Fraser river basin board) as to the possibilities of channeling the Pitt river into Burrard inlet by way of a canal.
Hon. W. G. Dinsdale (Minisier of Northern Affairs and National Resources):: Mr. Speaker, the only information with respect to channeling between Pitt river and Burrard inlet that has been submitted to the government by the Fraser river board is contained in the board's interim report of 1956 and the board's preliminary report dated October 31, 1958.
This latter report has already been tabled by my predecessor on January 20, 1959, who made a brief statement at that time as reported in Hansard of that date. There is another report, the Fraser river board's report of 1956. I understand that a number of hon. members, including the hon. member for Burnaby-Coquitlam (Mr. Regier), have been given a copy of this report, but I should be quite happy to table it if this is the wish of the hon. member.


Mr. Regier:: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I should like to have it tabled.


Mr. Speaker:: In view of the explanation, does the hon. member wish to drop his motion?


Erhart Regier: If the minister is going to let me have a look at the report.


John Whitney Pickersgill: On the point raised, Mr. Speaker, since the minister is prepared to table the document I think the motion should be carried and the document tabled in accordance with the motion.


Mr. Speaker:: Would the mover prefer to have the motion put?


Erhart Regier: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 113-Mr. Howard:
For a copy of the statement of evidence toy the combines investigation branch regarding the selling and pricing policies of certain pharmaceutical houses in respect of new types of drugs.
Hon. E. D. Fulton (Minisier of Justice):: Mr. Speaker, 1 wonder whether the hon. member would permit this motion to stand until the next day motions arise.


Mr. Howard:: I should be glad to, Mr. Speaker.
Motion stands.



AIR ROUTE SURVEY AND INDUSTRY STUDY

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 114-Mr. Chevrier:
For a copy of the report of the air transport board consequent upon a survey made of domestic and international air routes and a study into the air industry following public hearings held at different areas in Canada.
['I will so so, Mr. Speaker.']
Hon. Leon Balcer (Minister of Transport):: Mr. Speaker, no report such as has been requested has been made by the air transport board. However, the board has from time to time made the customary reports on domestic and international policy matters, and an interdepartmental report has also been prepared for study by the government. These are of course privileged documents.
As regards public hearings in Canada, the air transport board, following a staff study of regional air carriers, has held a series of public hearings in eastern Canada and will shortly hold additional hearings in the western regions in the near future. For this reason I wonder whether my hon. friend would consider withdrawing his motion.


Lionel Chevrier: Agreed.


Mr. Speaker:: Dropped.
Order discharged and motion withdrawn.
queen's regulations and orders, R.C.N.
Motion No. 115-Mr. Regier:
For a copy of the Queen's regulations and orders for the Royal Canadian Navy.


Hon. D. S. Harkness (Minister of National Defence):: Mr. Speaker, the Queen's regulations and orders for the Royal Canadian Navy is a public document, available from the Queen's printer. I understand the parliamentary library does not have a copy of these regulations but it could, if the hon. member asked for it, borrow the document from the national defence library for him.


Erhart Regier: That will be satisfactory, Mr. Speaker.


Mr. Speaker:: Dropped.
Order discharged and motion withdrawn.



[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. L. B. Pearson (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Secretary of State for External Affairs whether he could report to the house on the deterioration in the situation in Laos and its possible effect on the work of the international commission, of which Canada is a member.


Hon. Howard C. Green (Secretary of State for External Affairs):: Mr. Speaker, as the Leader of the Opposition knows, no agreement has yet been reached between the parties to the Laotian conflict on a cease Are. It seems possible, however, from the most recent reports that a meeting for this purpose may be held today.
The international commission for supervision and control in Laos held its opening meeting in New Delhi on Friday, April 28. A message from the Prime Minister (Mr. Diefenbaker) was read to the meeting by the Canadian commissioner, Mr. Leon Mayrand. Perhaps the house would agree that the text of this message should be printed as an appendix to Hansard. The commission later discussed the report which it will make to the co-chairmen concerning its immediate tasks and functions. I hope that agreement on this report will be reached at a further meeting of the commission to be held today, and that the report will immediately be dispatched to the governments of the United Kingdom and the Soviet union.
Hon. members will of course realize that I am not in a position at this stage to discuss the contents of this report but I think there is a reasonable chance that the report will be agreed to by the various governments represented on the commission and that it will urge that the commission be sent to Laos as quickly as possible.
Inquiries of the Ministry


Mr. Speaker:: Does the house give consent to the suggestion that the document referred to be printed as an appendix to Hansard!


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
[Editor's note: For text of document above referred to, see appendix.]


[Stage Direction]
table op disabilities, pension act
On the orders of the day:
Herbert Wilfred Herridge: wish to address a question to the Minister of Veterans Affairs. On March 27 the house unanimously approved motion No. 93 ordering the production of the table of disabilities. Would the minister mind checking to see why it has taken so long to table what is a routine document in the hands of the pension commission?


Hon. Gordon Churchill (Minister of Veterans Affairs):: I will so so, Mr. Speaker.



INDUSTRY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Lionel Chevrier: May I ask
the Acting Prime Minister whether the long delayed legislation to assist the shipbuilding industry, which has been announced on more than one occasion in the house, will be made retroactive to the date of its announcement.


Howard Charles Green: It will not be possible to answer that question today. As a matter of fact I think the hon. member for Laurier would agree that it would be unusual for a statement of that kind to be made prior to the actual introduction of the legislation.


Lionel Chevrier: The question was prompted by the fact that the Prime Minister in announcing legislation the other day listed a number of items but said nothing about legislation to assist the shipbuilding industry.


Howard Charles Green: I shall have the question looked into further.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Is the Acting Prime Minister aware of the fact-and it is a fact-that a good many plans for shipbuilding are being held up, and have been held up for some months, pending a decision as to what the government intends to do about this legislation, and that this is having an adverse effect on employment particularly in an area of great interest to the minister?

Inquiries of the Ministry


Howard Charles Green: I suggest the hon. member is now just making a little political speech and not asking a question.


John Whitney Pickersgill: On the point of order raised by the Acting Prime Minister, which I think is in disagreement with the ruling Your Honour made on Friday, I would point out that I asked the hon. gentleman if he is aware of the fact that shipbuilding is being held up, particularly on the west coast.


Mr. Speaker:: I think perhaps the odds are even.
(Translation):


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, I have a
supplementary question for the Minister of Transport. Has the minister read the statement made by an official of Davie Ship Building in Lauzon, as reported in a morning newspaper, referring to the fact that out of several thousand workers who were employed in that yard, there are now only 900, due to uncertainly as to the government's plans with regard to assistance to shipbuilding. Could the minister comment on that statement?


Léon Balcer: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I have read the statement made, I think, by Mr. Black, as reported in a Saturday newspaper. That is probably the statement to which my hon. friend refers.


Lionel Chevrier: I am referring to the statement made by Mr. Lowery.


Léon Balcer: I have not read the latter's statement. As we have already indicated, that legislation will be considered during this session. I think the Canadian shipbuilding industry will certainly be willing to wait another week or two, in view of the fact that it waited twenty-two years under the former government.
(Text) :



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. D. J. Walker (Minister of Public Works):: Mr. Speaker, in reply to the hon. member for Bumaby-Coquitlam who inquired on Thursday last as to whether an opportunity would be available to discuss the formation of a second mortgage market under Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation, I find it will be unnecessary to have


legislation to implement this, but I can assure my hon. friend that he will no doubt have a full opportunity to debate the matter when we are considering the estimates relating to C.M.H.C.



THE BUDGET


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Gordon Chown (Winnipeg South):: Mr. Speaker, today being May 1, may I ask the Minister of Finance whether he has as yet fixed the day for the presentation of his budget?


Donald Methuen Fleming: No, Mr. Speaker, and I do not think it will be possible to present the budget during the first half of this month.



ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Edmund Davie Fulton: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Trinity asked me a question which appears on page 4097 of Hansard for April 28, 1961, inquiring as to whether I had been consulted in respect to the proposed international conference to thresh out the crime situation in Toronto and adjoining areas. In reply, I would like to advise that I was not consulted, but on Thursday last the commissioner of the R.C.M. Police received a telephone call from a member of one of the police commissions interested and was asked if he would attend a proposed meeting. He replied that he would attend.
That is all that has happened to date. As hon. members will appreciate, the announcement of the proposed discussion was made on Friday, and all we have in connection therewith is that telephone call to the commissioner asking if he would attend a proposed meeting.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could ask a supplementary question to that which has just been answered by the Minister of Justice, and direct it to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration. Could that minister say whether she has any evidence in her department that there are frequent border crossings by persons who are suspected of being involved in organized criminal activities?


Hon. Ellen L. Fairclough (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration):: No, Mr. Speaker. This type of information is not necessarily collected by my department and, as

the hon. member knows, with some 60 million border crossings taking place each year it is a little difficult to screen them.



REQUEST FOR PUBLIC PARTICIPATION IN DAILY PRAYERS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Frank Howard: Mr. Speaker, I do not know to whom I should direct this question, but I wonder whether I could inquire as to the possibility of opening the doors to the galleries during the time prayers are in progress, in order that the general public may participate with us in our daily prayers.



INDIAN AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs. I apologize for not sending him notice, but I have been very busy. Does the government intend to send a representative to the ceremony to be held in Alberta in the near future when Mayor Charlotte Whitton of Ottawa is to be adopted as a daughter and raised to the rank of princess by one of the Indian tribes there? I ask this in view of the Minister of Justice having arranged to have the Royal Canadian Mounted Police band in attendance?


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, speaking on behalf of the Department of External Affairs, the answer is no. We consider that Alberta is still in Canada.



FREIGHT RATES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Transport. I should like to ask him whether, in view of the fact that the Freight Rates Reduction Act expired on April 30 and today being the first of May, freight rates have gone up?


Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker, the government has been advised by the presidents of the two railway companies that they are going to file new freight rates, so shippers will not be charged increased freight rates as of today.
National Design Council


Gordon Campbell Chown: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Transport. Would the minister advise the house whether he intends or proposes to refer the resolution to amend the Freight Rates Reduction Act, after first reading, to the standing committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines?


Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker, it has been the practice in the past when this act was amended to refer this legislation to the committee, and I think it is intended to follow the same course.



TELEVISION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Minister of Transport whether he is now in a position to answer the question I put to him on Friday, which he took as notice, with respect to representations concerning the Swift Current television station. I think the minister has perhaps had a chance now to make inquiries in this regard.


Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker, I inquired this morning about this matter. Unfortunately I cannot answer the question now, but I can assure my hon. friend that I will have an answer tomorrow morning.



NATIONAL DESIGN


Gordon Minto Churchill: the second reading of Bill No. C-85, for the establishment of a national design council.


Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker, I have before me a few notes which are not my own. They have been prepared by somebody else. I should now like to introduce to the house my hon. friend the Minister of Trade and Commerce.


Hon. George H. Hees (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: Thank you. Knowing that I was going to be in the house for the next hour and a half, I left for a very important reason and I am glad to return.


Mr. Speaker:: Perhaps the house will accept the motion now from the minister himself, so that he will not be considered to be closing the debate at this time.


Lionel Chevrier: I think we should hear from the Minister of Transport (Mr. Balcer).

National Design Council


George Harris Hees: Mr. Speaker, in December, 1960, responsibility for the national industrial design council was transferred from the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration to the Minister of Trade and Commerce. For a number of years the council had functioned as a committee of the national gallery of Canada. Its prime responsibility was to foster greater appreciation and use of good industrial design in Canada. In addition the council worked closely with the design centre in Ottawa where exhibits of good design were on public display. Also, the council sponsored a number of travelling exhibitions of good design.
In recent years the council and design centre were increasingly active in the field of industrial and commercial design. It was thought, therefore, that this work could more appropriately be carried out in closer liaison with the Department of Trade and Commerce. For the reasons it was deemed advisable to transfer the council to the Minister of Trade and Commerce and to make the staff of the gallery, assigned to this work, a part of the Department of Trade and Commerce.
The government places great importance on the development of good design as one means of helping to make Canadian goods competitive with those of other countries. It is not always realized that design as well as price is an important factor in market competitiveness. Good design incorporates two basic features, style and function. A commodity must be designed in such a way that it can be readily used to its full potential.
With respect to industrial goods this is an important cost factor. Industrial goods should be designed so they can be used most efficiently while in operation. At the same time they must incorporate such features as safety, adaptability and ease of servicing. In any industrial enterprise these are important cost considerations. The functional qualities of commodities are also important factors in the sale of consumer goods. Appliances, household utensils, clothing, recreational goods and the great range of consumer items should each be designed to best fulfil their intended functions if they are to receive consumer approval.
In designing a product, however, style is also important. If a commodity is to sell it should be pleasing. It must have an attractive and decorative form which complements its functional qualities. Both industry and the general public are becoming more conscious of good design and are demanding that good design be incorporated in the goods they purchase. It must be emphasized that, with the present state of competition in markets both at home and abroad, Canadian industry cannot afford to ignore design as a basic

competitive factor. Canada's competitors are fully aware of this importance. They are continually devoting time and resources to the development and improvement of commodity design which will give them competitive advantages.
If Canadian products are to be able to compete effectively with those of other countries they must also incorporate the best in design as well as compare favourably in both quality and price. Basic design thinking, from the choice of raw materials to the method of production, the actual product design, and the manner of packaging can result in a better product in terms of cost to the producer and in terms of function and appearance to the purchaser. This is an enormous field of endeavour, and full co-operation among manufacturers, distributors, consumers and government is needed if we are to achieve the desired results.
In order to better assist Canadian industry in achieving these objectives it has been decided by the government to introduce legislation to place the national design council on a more permanent basis, and to give it a recognized official status. The council is to consist of 17 members chosen from the fields of industry and commerce, distribution, architecture, design and engineering, and from departments of government which have a specialized interest in design. In addition there is provision for representation from the general public on the council. Members will be appointed by the governor in council to serve for three-year terms.
The objects of the council are to promote and expedite improvement of design in the products of Canadian industry. The council will plan and implement programs to create an awareness by industry and the general public of the need for good design. It will develop methods of achieving improved design, assist industry in developing and applying good design techniques, and organize and assist committees to implement programs to foster good design. It will encourage study and research in design and will be able to recommend the granting of scholarships and grants for such purposes. For a number of years the council has sponsored the granting of awards of merit to Canadian products of outstanding design. This work will be continued and expanded.
It is the government's intention that in the future the council will work in closer cooperation with Canadian designers, manufacturers, distributors and representatives of the general public. While the main responsibility for developing good designs must rest with Canadian industry, we believe that the council and the Department of Trade and Commerce can give valuable assistance to

industry in achieving these goals. I might mention that government sponsored design councils and agencies in the United Kingdom and Europe, particularly in the Scandinavian countries, have been active tor a considerable time and have achieved notable successes. We are very hopeful that the newly constituted council will continue the good work of its predecessor, and that as a result of this legislation it will be in a position to be an even more effective instrument of making Canadian design second to none.


Mr. H. M. Batten (Humber-St. George's):: Mr. Speaker, we live in a country where we trade not only because we have commodities to trade but also because we have commodities which we must trade. Canada is a trading country, and as such nobody would deny the importance of good design in those commodities which we have to sell. Good design in those commodities is not only important in selling them within the confines of our own country; good design is also important if our commodities are to be sold in the markets of the world. Our commodities, to be sold in Canada and in the markets of the world, must not only be attractive as far as price is concerned but must also be attractive as far as design is concerned.
I think every effort should be made to arrive at some basic design which can be recognized as a Canadian design and not merely a variation in style based on the design of some other country. I think there is a distinct difference between style and basic design. If our commodities are going to be attractive to people in other countries our basic design should be such as to be recognized as distinctively Canadian. Our design should be such as to meet the modern demands which are made of design.
I think, for example, of good Canadian design in household and office furniture, household appliances, children's toys, electronic equipment; and particularly I think of good design in commodities which are going to be sold to tourists who visit our country during the warmer part of the year. I believe there is something fundamentally wrong in selling to tourists commodities that are produced in their own country.
Not only do we want to develop commodities for the tourist trade that are national in design, but we should develop commodities which are regional in design for sale to tourists. I would hope that in the not too distant future serious consideration might be given to the commodities that form an important part of our tourist trade, to the end that they would be designed not only nationally but on a regional basis. If a commodity were designed nationally it should be
National Design Council designed in such a way to be recognized as Canadian, and if designed for regional purposes it should be designed in such a way as to be recognized as coming from a particular region of Canada.
Another field to which we should give serious consideration is that of packaging. We have a great many commodities in this country which we want to sell particularly in our groceterias and large chain stores. Packaging, here, is particularly important. I believe that a good deal of work can be done in order to ensure that the designs produced for packaged foodstuffs and other articles are such as to attract the people who would wish to buy them.
I entirely agree with the purpose of this bill. I believe it is a good move to have the national design council removed from the national gallery to the Department of Trade and Commerce at a time when we are particularly aware of the need for increasing our sales abroad. However, I should point out that this bill is not going to give the government authority to do any more than it now has authority to do.
The industrial design committee was formed in June of 1948. This committee was charged with the responsibility of ensuring that Canadian talent was used to the fullest possible extent in developing good Canadian design. If we examine the bill now before us we can see very clearly that it provides nothing new. While all of us here would be in accord with the principle of the bill, it requires to be pointed out that this is a field in which the government already is authorized to act.
In 1953 the original committee changed its name to the national industrial design council. Its purpose was to promote a greater use of Canadian talent in designing all types of consumer goods. At that time there were 30 members appointed to this committee drawn from the fields of manufacturing, retailing, industry, design, research, education and government. A further purpose of the committee was to do everything possible to provide complete information on contemporary design. It also decided that it should award scholarships to students attending university both in our own country and abroad.
One of the main purposes of this committee in the beginning was to study the economic relationship between good design and stability in the industries concerned. Over the years this committee has made a considerable contribution to the design of Canadian commodities. I do not think, however, Canada over the years has been able to attain a particularly important place in world design. I believe that with the raw materials and the

National Design Council industries we have, and with a great deal of attention being paid to good Canadian design by this council, an important contribution could be made. I wish to point out again, however, that while all of us would agree with the purpose of this bill, it does not provide to the present government authority to do those things for which it does not already have authority.
Finally, I wish to reiterate that I believe that in the commodities we have to sell in this country and abroad, a design should be achieved which could be recognized as distinctively Canadian. With a distinctively Canadian design, with prices that are competitive and with materials that are recognized as being of good quality, I believe we shall be able to sell our commodities in increased quantities to other countries of the world.


Mr. Harold E. Winch (Vancouver East):: Mr. Speaker, I believe all hon. members will agree that the principle of this bill is good. The transfer of the design council to the Department of Trade and Commerce, where we feel it rightly belongs, should prove of benefit. This bill is important if only because of the fact that the minister states that more effort will be devoted to the functions of the design council.
It is most unfortunate that Canada definitely has been lagging behind in the field of design as compared with other countries of the world. Irrespective of where the responsibility lies, it cannot be ignored that in sales abroad Canada has been resting on its oars. We have been guilty of thinking that we would continue to enjoy a seller's market as we have in past years. We did not anticipate finding ourselves in our present position in a buyer's market.
If Canada is to increase sales at home, considerable research must be undertaken in designing goods for home consumption that will meet the requirements of Canadian buyers. We are not facing up to facts when we state that a buy Canadian program is not having the hoped for result if no effort is being made to improve the design of commodities for domestic consumption to favourably compete with imported products.
While it is important that design research be undertaken with respect to products for domestic consumption, it is also essential that great attention be paid to design in terms of export trade. I think we should note that what might appeal to the purchaser at home does not of necessity appeal to the purchaser abroad. In the extended work of the design council I sincerely hope that every possible effort will be made to convince the manufacturing industry in Canada that they must have an understanding of the thinking

and the requirements of the people abroad to whom we wish to sell our goods. I know that on many occasions in the past in countries outside Canada I have found that people will say they like our product and inquire why it is not designed to meet their requirements. As I say, Canada has been resting on her oars. Canadian industry has been lagging behind and not recognizing the fact that we just cannot sit back and wait for orders to come in.
I also want to say that I think it is most opportune that on this very matter of design there was a most interesting program on television last week. I think we should take not of that broadcast and of what was said, because the people who were interviewed had some interest in design. They included, shall I say, captains of industry, research men and the head of the national research council.
What did we hear from all those men? We heard that Canada is not doing the job it should do on research and on design. The opinion was almost unanimous that Canada is far behind other countries, particularly the United States and the Scandinavian countries, in this matter of design. It was pointed out that only a few countries are paying much attention to research and design.
I do not know how it is going to be done, but I feel that this council has a big task ahead of it in trying to drive home to industry the fact that this is a subject with regard to which they cannot rely on the design council nor upon the national research council, but that they have a most serious responsibility which they themselves must accept. The council is going to be obliged to exert every possible bit of influence and pressure on industry, which unfortunately in the past has wanted to sit back and hope that its profits will continue. Also when there is something new in the way of design, the manufacturers of Canada, if possible, must expand their facilities and produce those goods themselves.
I think the people of Canada who viewed that C.B.C. program last week must have been positively shocked and taken aback at what I would term the betrayal of Canada as a country and of the Canadian people as workers, when the complete evidence was given of new designing done by Canadian research workers and of the fact that nobody wanted to take advantage of it or of the new product and put it into production, with the result that in the one instance the licence was sold to a firm in the United States. That was an instance of Canadian designing but no Canadian production. We are now importing from the United States a product which was designed in Canada and which Canada, as

a manufacturing country, refused to produce. In another instance something new was designed in Canada but Canada would not touch it. Now the licence is in the United Kingdom, and we are going to import the product into Canada.
I have just used these instances in order to point out the great task which lies ahead of this continuing design council under the Department of Trade and Commerce. To use a slang term, we must pull up our socks, we must not lag behind; if it is possible we must establish leadership. All I can say is that I hope the design council can get this message of research and design across to Canadian industry so that we can not only maintain but may expand the purchase of goods which are made in Canada by Canadians and meet the competition from abroad, where research is going on at such a rapid pace.


Mr. G. H. Aiken (Parry Sound-Muskoka):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to say a few words on this bill. First I should like to commend the minister on the idea set forth. However, the bill only sets up the council. As we all know, the success of the council will depend entirely upon its personnel, and in a minute or so I want to say something about that matter.
Both in their own minds and in the minds of people in a good many other countries there is the idea that Canadians are the producers and manufacturers of the utilitarian. This is one of the drawbacks that we in Canada are obliged to face. I am hopeful that the design council will start in a new direction from that traditional understanding of the Canadian product. We know of products of many types that have gone off the market in recent years for the sole reason that they have not competed in design, in appeal or in ideas with products imported from other countries. Many disappear from the market through lack of imagination on the part of manufacturers who in the past have found a ready market for their products and have been satisfied just to go on so long as the product was sold.
If there is anything that Canada needs in its export trade I believe it is a flair for design, for something different, which will bring it at least up to and possibly beyond the standards of other countries. I am thinking particularly of furniture, silverware, toys and novelties, all of which we are fully capable of manufacturing in Canada but which have fallen behind the products of many other countries in the matter of design, appeal and something new.
I think this is one of the problems which the design council will be obliged to face. As I said, I believe that the personnel of this
National Design Council council will be its most important feature. I hope the council will not be overloaded with members of the stolid, traditional types. I hope we shall not find too many of the personnel listed on it, from the government service and from the traditional manufacturers to the point where any bright ideas that might come up for consideration will be sat upon. I should like to see three or four crackpots put on this council.


An hon. Member:: Who is available?


Gordon Harvey Aiken: Perhaps the general public would put them into that classification, but I refer to people capable of doing advanced thinking, even ahead of our time, on matters of design and artistic practicability. I do not think the minister needs to designate which of the individuals he appoints would come in this category. However, I hope there will be on the design council persons with advanced artistic knowledge so they will bring up the standard of the council to a point where they will accept and promote new and novel ideas in the design of Canadian products.
I think it would be very depressing and an absolute waste of time if we were merely going to pass a bill and put on the council persons who will not advance the ideas which are really behind the bill. Therefore I say to the minister, do not be too traditional in the members who are selected for this council; let us see something of an advance in the traditional Canadian type of utilitarian product which has been manufactured.
I should like to make one further comment, and this concerns the remarks made by the hon. member who preceded me. The hon. member mentioned two cases in which Canadians had manufactured or designed products which could not be produced in Canada. Within my riding there is an example of the other side of the coin, where the minister's department has assisted very much in the production of a Canadian product. For almost a year I have been making efforts on behalf of a man who has designed the most advanced type of printing press in the world today. This is known as the Stroud press. It has attracted the attention of manufacturers in Germany, Sweden and the United States, all of whom have sent persons to look at this particular press. It has also been examined by the national research council and the Queen's printer's office, and has been found to be advanced in its design to the point where it is revolutionary.
The inventor of this press is a patriot who wishes this press to be manufactured in Canada. He has encountered great difficulties. It would be very easy for him to merely
414G	HOUSE OF
National Design Council sell his patent, as other persons have done, and let the product be manufactured outside this country. However, he has fought for some months now, with the assistance of the minister's department, and it appears that this press is going to be manufactured in Canada with assistance from the Department of Trade and Commerce, the industrial development bank and perhaps with accommodation rented from the Department of Defence Production.
If this develops to the point we hope it will, this will be an excellent example of the manufacture in Canada of a product of new design for export. I wanted to mention this one example in order to illustrate that it is possible, with the assistance of this department, to manufacture products of new design in this country. This can be done, and objects of new design can be accepted, promoted and manufactured in Canada and exported from this country.


Mr. J. T. Richard (Oilawa East):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to say a few words in connection with this bill because of the relationship it may have to the existing and proposed legislation for the protection of industrial designs. As the house knows, we have an old design act in Canada. This act was passed in 1906, and seeks to give a designer some protection for the shape, appearance or configuration of an article of manufacture. This particular act has been very unsatisfactory.
In 1958 we received a report from the royal commission on patents, copyrights, trademarks and industrial designs relating particularly to industrial designs which could be covered by this legislation. The bill, of course, gives no definition1-I do not know whether it is necessary-of what is a design. However, it is interesting to note that there are many kinds of designs; there are mechanical designs, artistic designs and designs relating to the shape, appearance or configuration of an article of manufacture.
I suppose this bill would not cover what could be called an artistic design in the sense of something which really belongs to the arts, but rather would have to do with commercial and industrial designs. The latter is exactly what the old industrial design act covered and protected, and this subject matter will be covered also if the house passes another bill in the future as a result of the report made by the royal commission.
My request to the minister is to find out whether this bill will be related to the industrial design act in such away that if the government assists or suggests designs for industry through this council, it will seek to give protection to the council, to the person who designed it, and to industry, or whether the design will be made available to the


country free of any charge or royalty. As the minister knows, we have gone pretty far in patents, for example. We know that the research council has a very large patent department. Although research is carried out at the expense of the people of Canada, the council obtains patents and royalties are charged to the public who use the patents.
I certainly would not like this idea to creep into this new act, by regulation or otherwise. On the other hand, the line must be drawn as to whether an individual who has invented, if you wish to use that word, or perfected a design and has received some assistance from the council, shall be barred from protection, as against a person who has not sought any assistance at all. Perhaps the minister understands my point. I hope he does. There is that line where an individual creating a new design for industry receives protection now, and will receive more protection under the new act than he has received in the past; whereas I hope a design created exclusively by the council, or entirely with their assistance, will be made available to the public freely, without charge. There is also the case of the poor individual who creates a design in part and receives only some assistance from the council; there is a point as to whether he should receive any protection at all.
This is the only matter I wish to take up at this time, because I do not see anything objectionable in this bill. On the contrary, I think we all agree that we need new designs and shapes for articles of all types manufactured in Canada. However, I think the regulations should be more specific on the question of protection. They could perhaps also be more specific with regard to the definition of a design. There is no definition of a design in this bill, and it might be well to think about this matter.


Mr. John Smiih (Lincoln):: Mr. Speaker, I should like at this time to approve the principle of this bill. I feel that if this council works in conjunction with industry and our research departments here in Ottawa it could have a very beneficial effect on industry in general in this country. However, I do not like to see Canada sold short, as it were, because I feel that we in this country are quite advanced in many designs both in industry and in different types of manufacturing.
Look at our tourist industry, for example. We have a wide variety of articles which tourists pick up while in Canada, but I hear many tourists complain very bitterly that one can hardly buy any kind of Canadian designed souvenir that is made in Canada. Foreign countries copy our totem poles, our Maid of the Mist plates and design, our mounted police, our Quebec figurettes and our

Eskimo carvings. All these things are definitely of Canadian design, but unfortunately there does not seem to be anything to prevent other countries copying them. Therefore I think in the setting up of this council we must not only consider the question of helping to create new designs for commodities of one kind and another, but also protecting them after they have been designed.
I hope the minister will give that point some consideration, because I think it is very important. I do not think I have anything else to say at this time. Much could be said about this matter. I do feel it is not only a question of designing; it is also a matter of protecting the design after it has been made. Again I must say I disagree with some hon. members when they say that Canada is lagging in design. I do not say we are leading, but in my opinion we are certainly not lagging.


Miss Judy V. LaMarsh (Niagara Falls):: wish to add a few remarks to those already made with reference to this proposed new council. I congratulate the minister on taking the responsibility of accepting an idea proposed and first instituted by the prior administration and in this way complimenting the minister who was at that time responsible.
The party to which I belong has long been interested in design and in the promotion of Canadian manufactured goods which by their design and by their functionality will be able to compete here at home and abroad. No one, I suppose, on this side of the house or on the other side would suggest that better and more suitable design could at any time be a bad thing. However, in the set up of the national design council in Bill No. C-85 which is now before us it may be noted that there is very little dependence on the type of person who might be expected to be called upon, who would be interested by way of his profession. It is noted that only four members will be chosen from the fields of architecture, design and engineering out of a total of 17.
It might be suggested that since design is the whole purpose of the bill there are many in these fields within the dominion who should be called upon, who have formed professional organizations and who should find a place on this council. There is, in fact, a professional association in Canada which is known as the association of Canadian industrial designers, and one would expect that members of that association might be found in the make-up of the proposed council.
There was one reference to a conceivable drawback that was made by the hon. member for Ottawa East and referred to very briefly, I think, by the hon. member for Lincoln, who spoke earlier. In Canada we have had for some years a design council which has been
National Design Council under the aegis of the national gallery. We have had very little advance in new design, and I do wish to make a submission to the minister who will be responsible for this council that perhaps one of the things which will be necessary is the reform of our laws with respect to patents and copyrights and in particular to the registration of new designs.
The Ilsley commission has already been referred to. It was set up by the prior administration, and reported in 1958. There is a report to which I would refer the minister which is available in the library of parliament. It recommends that there should be protection of industrial design, and it may well be that one of the factors inhibiting Canadian designers is that they are not able effectively to obtain the fruit of their labour by registering their designs. In the report of the Ilsley commission there is consideration of recent legislation in the United Kingdom which tightens this matter and a consideration of the pros and cons of extending such provisions.
The Ilsley commission was not able to come to a firm conclusion as to whether giving protection to those who caused new industrial designs to come into being was something which solidified design or whether it was some thing which caused more activity in the design field. But these learned gentlemen, after hearing briefs from a number of interested persons, including a brief from the national design council through its representatives, found themselves in favour of protection and recommended to the government of the day, which is the minister's government, that a new act be drawn which would give to those who created new designs a degree of protection.
I would refer the minister particularly to page 11 of that report of the royal commission on patents, copyrights, trademarks and industrial design, published in 1958 by the Queen's printer. On page 11 appears the report of the Snow committee, which was a committee set up in England to consider this question. The report is properly called the report of the departmental committee appointed by the president of the board of trade of the United Kingdom to consider the patents and designs act. This report goes into some detail regarding the benefit to increasingly good design to be obtained by protecting the holder of the design.
There are, it is true, a number of problems to be considered. There is in existence now the registration act, which is considered to be ineffective and which has been found by those who have perfected new designs not to give them adequate protection. I suggest, therefore, that attention be given not only by

National Design Council the minister but by his colleague the Secretary of State to the revision of those statutes in order that new designs as they are promoted, encouraged and brought into being in Canada shall be assisted, so that one who does a great deal of work and expends a great deal of time in causing these designs to come into being shall be able to obtain, at least for a limited period, protection of that work and talent.
I also suggest to the minister who will be responsible for the new design council that relatively little has been done in Canada to assist or protect or encourage industrial designers. It is known there has been a series of scholarships given in the past, but these scholarships do not appear to have been sufficient in number or large enough in scope to permit the winners to study abroad and then spend considerable time developing new designs here. I know that in the annual report of the national gallery of Canada for 1959-1960, under "Industrial Design", the national industrial design council, which has been set up by the trustees of the national gallery and which I presume will go out of existence on the passage of this bill, has instituted a new series of design awards and a new design index listing Canadian manufactured products which meet certain design specifications, in respect of which certificates are to be given on a three-year basis. It appears in the report that the first year for such awards to be made is 1961, in the autumn, when an international jury is to be set up to choose the winner.
I hope that in causing the national industrial design council to go out of existence at this time, and having it replaced by the national design council, the plans which have been formulated by the earlier council will be continued and developed by the new body. The old body, which I presume, will now go out of existence, was an active executive group of about 12 members who met every three months. In view of the fact that it appears to be unanimous in this house that we should concentrate on the design of Canadian products, and in view of the fact that the minister indicated there should be more energy and attention paid to this particular aspect of design, I suggest that the council should meet far more frequently than is suggested in the proposed act.
The problems which the council will meet in respect of the dissemination of information, and creating public interest in design, are briefly dealt with in section 10 and other sections of the bill, where there is indication that there will be scholarships, publications and travelling shows of the kind that presently exist. I suggest to the minister that there is
[Miss LaMarsh.}

very little new thought here as to the proposed method of operation of this council. There are excellent displays and publications now being made available, one of which was the new booklet put out this year entitled "Design Bulletin" issued as a monthly News Letter, However, I suggest that these are insufficient and that it will be necessary to find other ways of promoting good design.
I think hon. members have seen the display of good design in respect of Christmas gifts which has appeared in Ottawa for the past two or three years under the aegis of the design centre, as well as the travelling exhibitions. I first saw this display when I was in Ottawa as a tourist. Hon. members should realize that these exhibits come to the attention not only of those who live in the area in which they are displayed but, if the area has a large tourist public, a profound impression is made on a great many additional people.
I think it is necessary to educate people in the matter of taste, appreciation and style. This is, of course, a long process. There are a number of magazines, unfortunately most of them United States publications, with perhaps the exception of one which is Canadian, which promote style in the home by photographs and discussions of new styles and new functions in respect of articles used in and around the home as well as building materials. These magazines include photographs of furniture, appliances, gardening tools and many articles of that type. They have been very instrumental in changing the taste of people in this country.
Unfortunately in Canada, whether imported or locally designed and sold, style often is accompanied by high price. It too often appears that the Canadian manufacturer feels, in respect of low priced or minimum priced goods, that design, style or function does not matter and that only those individuals with a good deal of money to spend will be interested. I suggest that it should be a function of this council to persuade manufacturers that this matter of taste is not limited to those potential purchasers with much money to spend but that it is an intrinsic thing, because everyone appreciates beauty and style regardless of their ability or inability to afford them. I suggest that those individuals who are only able to afford a bare minimum would prefer to purchase an article which is both beautiful and functional within their price range.
Those of us on this side could not fail to approve of a concentrated effort on the part of the government and interested people in the community to improve the style of products, making those products not only more saleable but providing a distinct benefit in the

way of beauty to those who purchase them. We could not disapprove of this because legislation of this type was introduced by the party which now sits on your left, Mr. Speaker.
This being 1961, we could hope that those individuals on the newly instituted design council will be looking not just to this year, but ahead to 1981 in doing all there is in their power to bring new designs to our products as quickly as possible, so that design will not be a matter only of beauty to promote sales in Canada but also that we may take pride in Canadian produced articles being sold in shops all around the world. I hope this will take place as quickly as possible so that one can say with pride, that an article is indeed Canadian both in substance and design.


Frank Howard: Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to follow the well designed member for Niagara Falls (Miss LaMarsh).


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Frank Howard: There is one thought that I would like to leave with the minister in respect of this bill before us, which follows suggestions made by other members in regard to one of the beneficial effects which will flow from the activities of the design council. I refer, of course, to the potential increase in the sale of Canadian made goods in other countries. There is a group of people in Canada, the largest single organized group of citizens, who are not disinterested in this question of increasing the sales of our commodities in other countries. I suggest that this group has done some research work in the field of design in respect of commodities, goods and packages which would be a marked contribution toward the activities of the design council. Incidentally, this group is represented on the national productivity council, and I feel should be represented on the design council. I refer specifically to the organized labour group in Canada.
It was the promise of this government, although it has not always been carried out, that organized labour would be represented on all the boards, commissions and agencies in which this group is interested. I suggest that this group is interested in the question of design and the promotion of unique designs reflecting Canadian attitude and spirit. This group would be interested in design itself as well as the beneficial effects improved design will have upon the sale of our goods in other countries.
In view of what I have said, I wonder whether the minister would indicate whether this suggestion, in respect of organized labour representation on the design council, is one
90205-6-262
National Design Council he considers should be followed. I repeat that I feel this largest single organized group in Canada should be represented so their views and ideas can be reflected as much as possible in the recommendations and activities that may be undertaken by this council.


Mr. F. J. Bigg (Athabasca):: Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to support the bill. I think the time is long overdue when we should pay more attention to promoting the skill of our own people and the sale of Canadian goods. In my opinion there is nothing more conducive to such a forward step than a council of this sort. I should like to see a very large contribution made toward scholarships and also by way of grants for exhibitions at local fairs. There is a good deal of talent throughout Canada that never comes to light. There is no point in spending money or having such a council unless we bring this talent to light. We look to our young people for new and better designs. A country that has encouraged such men as Graham Bell does not need to take a back seat in the development not only of new designs but also new instruments.
I am also pleased to see that the bill contemplates the giving of awards of merit. I do not know why such awards should not be retroactive. If there are Canadian designers who have already made contributions I think they should be encouraged. Such awards may encourage them to remain in Canada where their services are needed, particularly if it is in monetary form.
I think it is a forward step that we are going to encourage exhibitions abroad. The reports I have heard about the Brussels fair indicate that Canada's activities there left much to be desired. A good many Canadians went to that fair expecting to be very proud of the Canadian displays but came home disappointed. They were particularly disappointed with the food served. I do not know why Canadian cooking should not be included within the wide scope of this bill. When we go abroad and have European or British guests we should be able to take them to the Canadian pavilion at such fairs and be able to have Alberta steaks, British Columbia salmon or other items produced in Canada which are among the world's finest foods. If we are going to sell abroad we have to display our best products. How can we do it any better than by having Canadian travellers introduce these people to the foods we know so well?
I think our Canadian embassies and consulates should be encouraged to show Canadian goods. I understand that the embassies and consulates of Canada throughout the

National Design Council world are filled with French antique furniture, American colonial furniture or English period furniture. When new consulates are opened I should like to see them equipped with Quebec furniture, Ontario furniture or any other furniture made in Canada so that we can show the people of other lands what we produce. No other country would be foolish enough to advertise other than its own products abroad. I think we have to act like adults now that our country has reached maturity, and fill our embassies and consulates with Canadian made goods. We have beautiful products of all kinds in every industry, and I believe we should promote their sale.
We can learn something from the way other countries do business. Before the Japanese design goods for use in Canada or the United States they send a trade mission here and conduct a kind of Gallup poll. Through our commercial outlets they find out what we want; then they go back to Japan and do not lose any time producing it. We could do the same thing. Perhaps our embassies and consulates do not have the time to do this work, but we could send teams of experts to other countries to find out what they like and then we could produce what these countries want.
I can see a tremendous field so far as forestry is concerned. The people of Asia are now awakening, and they want to be educated. I do not think one could exaggerate the amount of paper products they are going to need. We have the mills and the ability to produce such products. We could send a trade team to Asia to find out what kind of printed products they want, particularly in the form of school books. The people of China, Japan and India are tremendous readers, and here is a field that in my opinion we have not even scratched.
We rely very largely on the forest industry to balance our trade. If we can get those who produce paper and the printers to co-operate, there is no reason why we cannot print material in the languages of the people of these countries. We have Asiatics in Vancouver, and there is no question about our being able to print story books, school books and professional and technical books in the languages of these people. When we have exhibitions we can invite these Asiatic people to come and see what we can do in Canada; and for goodness sake let us also go to them and ask them what they need. We have the paper and can do the printing with the greatest of ease. I think we could open up an unlimited market in Asia.
So far as the field of sport is concerned, there is no doubt that Canadians can produce the finest sporting equipment in the world. Our Olympic athletes have made a name for

Canada in hockey and skiing, and I think we should go to other countries, find out the type of sporting equipment they want and show them what we have.


Mr. O. J. Godin (Nickel Belt):: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to have the opportunity to express certain views on the principle of Bill No. C-85, the purpose of which is to create a national design council. So far as design functions are concerned, my particular interest has been in connection with products made from nickel, and in that regard I might point out that an exhibition of stainless steel products was held about a year ago at the national gallery.
There is no doubt that the bill is welcomed by all members of the house, since its primary objective is to promote the sale of Canadian products and thereby increase Canadian production. In that regard it follows the ideals put forward by the government in past years, and a previous speaker has indicated quite well the efforts made in the past to formulate ways and means of promoting Canadian design.
I understand that at present there is a staff of 12 engaged in the promotion of Canadian design. However, in view of the growth of our country and having in mind our resources there is no doubt that a more complete and elaborate organization is needed to review the possibility of bringing about a greater incentive in Canada for the creation of designs that would be definitely Canadian and would result in our products being of a better quality.
The expansion of the functions of the national design council will certainly be appreciated by all hon. members and by the Canadian people. No doubt is was a shock to many Canadians to learn on a television broadcast the other day about certain problems that have arisen in recent years with respect to designing goods in Canada and the lack of proper promotion so they could be produced here. We were told, for example, about a plane required particularly for use in the northern areas of Canada which was designed here but could not be manufactured in Canada and had to be brought in from abroad. I urge the minister to give consideration to extending the objects of the council to include assistance in the promotion of Canadian produced goods.
On a previous occasion I referred to the ceremony at the opening of the national gallery, which was an elaborate and formal affair. The Minister of Citizenship and Immigration was hostess on that occasion and gave a splendid address. To my surprise most of the designs which won awards on that occasion were foreign. I am unable to give

an exact indication of the proportion of awards that went to foreign entries, because I did not expect to be speaking on this subject today. However, my impression is that very few of the outstanding, award winning designs were Canadian.
I was surprised, for instance, that an automobile produced in Europe won an award for stainless steel decoration. As a Canadian I regretted that an automobile manufactured or assembled in Canada had not won this award. As hon. members know, Canada produces a major portion of the world's stainless steel. I do not have current figures, but Canada's position in the production of monel metal would be even further advanced today as a result of Cuban production being curtailed.
No doubt people will be requested to sit on the council or its advisory committee without remuneration. This is a field in which we should obtain the highest possible degree of co-operation with industry. Although the council will bring benefits to the Canadian people generally it will bring particular benefits to industry. I urge that the minister strive to ensure that there will be in the council a high degree of co-operation with industry, and that consideration will be given to doing everything possible to assist in the promotion of Canadian products.
It should be brought to the attention of the public that many Canadian produced goods are superior in design and quality to imported goods. I hope the council will direct its efforts to this end. Recently I spoke to a person who brought to my attention the fact that many Canadian textiles are superior in design and quality to foreign made textiles. We are accustomed to thinking that imported textiles are superior to ours. Certainly imported textiles are given great publicity, and attention is directed to their alleged superior quality. The council should bring to the attention of domestic and foreign consumers the superior craftsmanship and quality of Canadian textiles and other goods.
Five or six years ago I attended a lecture at which the speaker proved to the audience that a Canadian manufactured refrigerator was superior to one manufactured in the United States, and that the additional $40 or $50 which was paid for the Canadian unit was compensated for by the fact that the Canadian unit contained material of a superior quality. It is information of this sort which the council must bring to the attention of the buying public.
We congratulate the minister on the forward step that this bill represents, and urge him to ensure that the council do everything possible to assist in the domestic and 90205-6-262J
National Design Council foreign sales of Canadian made products in terms of publicizing their outstanding qualities.


Mr. A. D. Hales (Wellington South):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to take a few minutes of the time of the house to lend my support to this bill and to congratulate our young and energetic Minister of Trade and Commerce on bringing this measure before us.
Many interesting ideas have been brought to our attention in the discussion of this measure to establish a national design council, and I am sure the council will find them of value in their deliberations. May I suggest that when selecting this council the minister give consideration to the selection of a representative from the field of agriculture. We have many food products in Canada which are of outstanding quality. I think particularly of Canadian cheese, maple syrup, hams, bacon and many other fine products. Although foodstuffs do not appear to have much to do with design there is an important relationship. We have a tremendous sale abroad of Canadian products of this nature.
When travelling south of the border we often see reference made to Canadian bacon on the menus of restaurants. This is a field in which the council could promote Canada and Canadian products. I urge the council, through the minister, to bear this in mind and to have our Canadian foodstuffs of great distinction brought to the attention of people in other countries.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Speaker, I had intended to make some more extended remarks, but unfortunately I was obliged to be absent from the chamber while the minister was making his speech on the motion for second reading of the bill. I want to say simply that I have always been interested in the design of inanimate objects, and I presume this bill refers entirely to inanimate objects. I think it is extremely necessary in our national life to get persons interested in form and in colour. There is a great deal in life beyond just the purely material, and the more people we can get interested in the purpose of this bill the better it will be. Ugliness is one of the factors contributing to many of our problems. People live in ugly surroundings; they use ugly equipment and ugly things. I am a great believer in the remedial effects of beauty in life.
I want to pay a tribute to those Canadians who do work in this field which is not generally known. There are some persons who make contributions to industrial and other designs across Canada. There are many more who are capable of making contributions if they have the opportunity to do so. I suggest that the council should inform the public on
4152	HOUSE OF
National Design Council the widest possible basis as to its purposes and objectives. Even in the smaller places in our country there are many people-and I am thinking particularly of the younger people- with talent and ideas.
I close by simply suggesting that we should do everything possible to get the co-operation of all the people in Canada who are interested in satisfactory industrial design and the work of the council which is the purpose of the bill.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I do not want to say very much about this bill in view of what has already been said. However, I wish to make one suggestion to the minister. I am not quite sure that I would go the whole way with the hon. member for Parry Sound in suggesting that the minister should appoint crackpots to the council. I think perhaps it would be more useful to appoint to the council people who would seek designs for pots that would not crack. I commend that suggestion to the minister.
However, I think what the hon. member for Parry Sound had in mind was not really the appointment of crackpots but rather of people with ideas that had not yet necessarily caught on with the public. We know that most of the design that is good and interesting is novel. We know that after a while people get tired of one way of doing things or one way of designing things, as women seem to do with their fashions, and they want something somewhat different. I think there has been far too much of a tendency in Canada-although a good deal less in the last decade and a half than there was previously-to do things that were purely conventional and imitative of people in other countries.
I had the responsibility at one time, in a general way, along with the late Mr. C. D. Howe, for the design council as it exists at the present time. The responsibility then was divided, as it has continued to be divided between the Minister of Trade and Commerce and the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration under the present administration. The question of whether the Minister of Trade and Commerce rather than the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration should have the prime responsibility is not, in my opinion, a matter of great importance, although there is probably something to be said for relating the council more directly to industry, through putting it directly under the responsibility of the Minister of Trade and Commerce, whoever he may be, for the accomplishment of an immediate and intimate relationship between industry and the work of the council.
I feel that it would be only right to say what I am now going to say, and I do so particularly because I have a suggeston to make
[Mr. Herridge.l

to the minister. If there is one man to whom the Canadian people owe the design council and the pioneering work it has done in the last decade or more it is to Mr. Donald Buchanan, who was associated with the national gallery and who provided most of the initiative and inspiration for the starting of this work. It is a matter of the deepest regret to me and to many other Canadians, not all of them political friends of mine, that Mr. Donald Buchanan left the national gallery -I do not intend to go into that matter- and that at the present time he is not even living in his own country.
I would urge this suggestion on the minister. If he really wants the ablest Canadian who could be found to be the head of the design council, I suggest that he seek to repatriate Mr. Buchanan and get him to undertake this job. I think this would be one of the most useful and productive things he could possibly do. I felt that I should make this suggestion, and that is all I have to say.


Some hon. Members:: One o'clock.


George Harris Hees: Mr. Speaker-


Mr. Speaker:: I must inform the house that if the minister speaks now he will close the debate.


George Harris Hees: It is about one minute to one o'clock. May I call it one o'clock?
At one o'clock the house took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The house resumed at 2.30 p.m.
Frank Howard: Mr. Speaker, I should like to rise on a question of privilege, if I may. I am sure the minister will not mind my raising this matter at this time. My question of privilege relates to an hon. member of this house, the hon. member for Peterborough (Mr. Pitman). I wonder whether the house is aware of the fact that the hon. member for Peterborough and his wife today became the proud parents of a baby girl.


George Harris Hees: Mr. Speaker, as most of us are parents I feel sure we all join in congratulating the hon. member for Peterborough and his wife on this addition to their family.
I should like to thank those hon. members who have spoken in this debate for the very constructive contributions they made. A great many good ideas have been put forward. I can assure the hon. members who made these suggestions that I and my departmental officials will take careful note of them, and

they will be brought to the attention of the design council once the members are chosen and the council set up.
The hon. member for Ottawa East and the hon. member for Niagara Falls voiced concern for the designers of Canada lest they be not protected by law regarding the designs they have worked on and produced. This protection continues to be provided for our designers through the Industrial Design and Union Label Act. When the present bill becomes law, as I hope it will, it will not in any way interfere with this protection. The purpose of this bill is solely to encourage good design in Canada.
The hon. member for Skeena asked whether a representative of organized labour could be included in the personnel of the council. The hon. member for Wellington South asked whether a representative of agriculture could be included. Although there are no specific categories for organized labour or agriculture on the council, section 3 (e) does provide for two people to be chosen from the general public. Of course representatives of labour, agriculture or any other category could be chosen to fill those vacancies.
I would stress that in choosing the personnel for this council we are particularly anxious to obtain people who are outstanding, who have done a great deal of work and study in the field of industrial design, and who are thereby able to make a really important and worth while contribution to improving design in this country. If hon. members know of people of particular talent in this regard, if they will let me know who they are and what their past work and experience has been I will be very glad to give them consideration.
I think it is particularly important that in the very competitive world in which we find ourselves today we should have products of outstanding Canadian design. I say this because in a market such as we have in Canada today, or the world market, which are both very competitive, to sell a product it must have either the best design, the best quality, or be offered at the lowest price. Sometimes it is necessary for a product to have a combination of two or three of these outstanding qualities. I think we have all had experience with products of outstanding design, and we know they usually command their own market and also a price well in excess of competitive products.
I should like to give four well known examples to illustrate this point. There is the machinery produced by the International Business Machines Corporation, the machines produced by the United Shoe Machinery Company-which produces machinery for manufacturing footwear-and the engines turned
National Design Council out for both automobiles and aeroplanes by the Rolls Royce Company. Also the fashions that are being produced by the world's top designers in Paris, New York, London and other fashion centres command their own markets at prices far in excess of those of their competitors.
I think the best way for producers in Canada to increase sales, and thereby increase the number of jobs available to Canadians, is to develop distinctive Canadian designs for our products. If we do this I feel we can win and hold markets at higher than competitive prices. If our design and quality are no better than that what is offered by those competing for our markets, then of course our producers will always be at the mercy of the price cutter and employment in these industries will be uncertain.
This is not the kind of situation we want in Canada. We want high and steady employment. The best way to make sure that we have both is to ensure that the products we produce will be asked for by name by people throughout the world as distinctive Canadian products, because they are better than the products offered by our competitors.
We have examples of that kind of design in certain of our agricultural products. I would name three that come to mind. One is Canadian cheddar cheese. Another is our No. 1 northern wheat. Another is Canadian bacon. Hon. members will know many others. These are products which have been developed by our agriculturists and which are well known throughout the world. These are asked for by name, and they have won for themselves an important place in the commercial market. I believe that if our agriculturists have been able to develop such outstanding products as these it is up to our industrialists to prove that they are just as able to develop unique Canadian products which can command their own markets and prices.
That is the real challenge facing Canadian industry today. It is to help industry meet this challenge that we are establishing the national design council, and I believe that working together to produce distinctive Canadian designs our industrialists, our workers and our manufacturers along with those interested in design throughout the country and those who are appointed to the industrial design council can help materially to increase the sales of Canadian products, thereby increasing the number of jobs available for Canadians.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Flynn in the chair.
[Stage Direction]
National Design Council
On clause 1-Short title.
Joseph-Adolphe Richard: Can the minister enlarge on the question of protection of designs which I raised this morning?


George Harris Hees: I did cover that subject while I was closing the debate on second reading, but since the hon. member was not here I will repeat what I said. The industrial design act provides the necessary protection for our designers so they do not lose the benefits which might, could and should accrue to them for the work they have put into the development of new and distinctive designs. This bill when it becomes an act will not interfere with that provision in any way. The purpose of this legislation is simply to encourage good design in Canada.


Mr. Richard (Ottawa East):: So the council itself will not have any rights in designs at all?


George Harris Hees: That is correct.


Jean-Thomas Richard: Furthermore, it will not take away any rights from designers solely on account of the fact that they have been assisted.


George Harris Hees: That is correct.


[Stage Direction]
Clause agreed to.
Clause 2 agreed to.
On clause 3-Establishment of council.
Frank Howard: With respect to clause 3, I mentioned on second reading the possibility of having representation on the council from organized labour in keeping with the general practice of this government, as I understand it, of appointing to various commissions and boards people who are representative of organized labour. Unfortunately I had to leave the chamber for three or four minutes during the time the minister was speaking, and if he did deal with this specific question and I missed his reply I am sorry. I apologize for being out of the chamber. However, I gathered from a private conversation I had with the minister during lunch-I hope he will not mind my mentioning this-that the government was not opposed to taking the line I have suggested.


George Harris Hees: Having had to leave the chamber myself for three or four minutes I sympathize with the hon. member for Skeena. While he was out I did answer his question. I noted that he had asked that a representative of organized labour be included among the members of the council, and that the hon. member for Wellington South had asked that a representative of agriculture be also included. I pointed out that although there is no specific provision in the bill for
[Mr. Hees.l
the inclusion of representatives of these two categories, there is in clause 3 subparagraph (e) provision for two people to be appointed from the general public, and representatives of labour and agriculture could well be included there. This would have to be decided later, but there would certainly be a possibility of that being done under the subclause.
I pointed out also that in choosing the members of the council we are particularly anxious to have people who have received special training and who have done special work in the field of design, in order that they may make a particular contribution to the work of the council. I invited hon. members to let me know any people who have done outstanding work in this field, because I should be glad to give consideration to their inclusion among the members of the council.


Frank Howard: I do not know whether the minister was absent for the same reason as myself, but perhaps that is something we should not explore at this time. I understood the minister to say that representatives of agriculture and organized labour as well as, conceivably, of other elements in our society, could be appointed under subparagraph (e) where reference is made to two members of the general public. I also understood him to say that the government is anxious to have serving on this council people with special understanding of industrial design, or with special training in this field.
I think this is commendable, but I point out to the minister and to the committee that under clause 4, subclause (4)-and I refer to this, Mr. Chairman, only because it is connected with what I am about to say-it is provided that a person can only be eligible for appointment as a member of the council if he has knowledge of the field he is to represent or of the technical aspects of design. That is made clear in clause 3, subparagraphs (a), (b), (c) and (d). You will notice, Mr. Chairman, that the two members to be appointed under subparagraph (e) are specifically excluded from this obligation. Clause 4 says in effect that the two members of the general public need not have any knowledge of the design field or of the technical aspects of the work. If it is possible to appoint two members of the general public under paragraph (e) of this clause, one could conceivably come from the field of agriculture and another from the field of organized labour. That being so, why might they then be excluded from having technical knowledge in these particular fields, while it is required in respect of the other members?


George Harris Hees: Mr. Chairman, when members of the general public are included in a council they are usually included for the purpose of having additional points of view presented in discussions of the council, perhaps nontechnical points of view, or consumers' points of view. When I mentioned that representatives from the field of agriculture and organized labour could be included under clause 3, paragraph (e), I meant just that. It might be possible that those individuals chosen from the general public would be representatives of organized labour or agriculture. There would be no reason why they would not be. Who the individuals will be that are chosen I do not know, but I feel there is an opportunity for them there.


Frank Howard: It seems to me that it would be desirable to have special reference to that effect included in this bill so as to ensure that the council will have representatives from the fields of agriculture and organized labour, in addition to the two members chosen from the general public. This would ensure that the consumers' point of view was represented as well as the points of view of the two large and important segments of our society, organized labour and agriculture. Those views would then be expressed within the council and would perhaps have some influence upon the council's recommendation.
I think it is necessary that I confine my remarks at this time to the representation by organized labour, but I would not like to be precluded from referring to that other important segment, agriculture. I feel that those members of this committee who are knowledgeable in regard to agriculture will be far more able to express points of view in that field than I am. In this regard I would like to place before the committee a motion along the lines I have suggested. I therefore move, Mr. Chairman, the following proposed amendment:
That clause 3 be amended by deleting the word "seventeen" in line 11 and by substituting therefor the word "nineteen", by deleting the word "and" at the end of paragraph (d), placing the word "and" at the end of paragraph (e), by adding the following as a new paragraph (f):
" (f) two members who shall be chosen from the field of organized labour,"
If this amendment passes I will then deal with the question of representatives from the field of agriculture. I feel if the proposed amendment is passed it will necessitate a subsequent amendment to clause 4.


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Chairman, may I say that after glancing at this amendment, we are prepared to support it.


The Chairman:: If there is no objection to the validity of the amendment, I shall put it.
National Design Council


George Harris Hees: Mr. Chairman, having served on committees I think we can agree that there is a limit to the size of a committee, if it is intended that the committee should accomplish anything. Under this amendment we would be including two members from organized labour. If we should agree to that proposal then it certainly could be claimed that there should be two representatives from the field of agriculture. Consumer groups as well as industrial groups, not specified here, would have an equal claim for representation. These claims could go on and on. There is no reason why the representatives chosen, for example, under paragraph (a), being five members from the field of industry and commerce, would not be men working in plants. It is not specified that those representatives from industry and commerce shall be from the management side. On the contrary, they could be from the labour side.
We intend that this council be a workable body, and I suggest there is a limit to the number of members in order that it be workable. If we attempt to include representatives from specific groups there will be no limit to the number of members. For the above reasons I am afraid the government will have to oppose the amendment. I think the hon. member will agree that this government has taken advantage of the very valuable views voiced by organized labour groups.
I might also mention that the industry-management committee which I called together several weeks ago-this is a very important committee-is made up of 15 representatives of labour unions and 15 representatives of management. In respect of the productivity council there will be an equal number of representatives from organized labour and management. I would also point out that there has never been any desire on the part of this government of which I am aware, to exclude representatives of organized labour from any discussions. I feel sure that the individuals who fill the positions outlined in paragraph (a), from industry and commerce, will represent the views of organized labour, and I would therefore indicate that the government must decline this motion.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, I am not very much impressed by the argument that has just been put forward by the Minister of Trade and Commerce. It does seem to me that we are dealing here with a national design council which will be concerned with the designing of products of industry, and that organized labour would have a more direct and immediate interest in that council than any of the other groups the minister suggested should be considered. Of course, I think consumers might have better views on the subject than anyone else, but I take it
4156	HOUSE OF
National Design Council they would be covered under subclause (e), "two members of the general public". I would hope that at least one of those two members, if not both, would be a woman because I think they generally have a better conception of design than the average man and, as we all know, they are the main customers under the division of labour that seems to have come about in our modern industrial society.
However, since the minister has indicated that he is not prepared to accept the amendment of the hon. member for Skeena, I have a suggestion to make which might accomplish the purpose the hon. member has in mind and also be acceptable to the government. I suggest to the minister that he might consider asking the hen. member for Skeena to withdraw his amendment and in exchange undertake to ask the Minister of Veterans Affairs to move that subclause (a) be amended so it would read "five members who shall be chosen from the field of industry"-then you would cut out the word "and" and insert a comma-"commerce and organized labour". Then there would be no doubt that it was the intention of parliament that organized labour should be specifically referred to.
The hon. member for Skeena and I are not in each other's confidence as to this matter. We just happen to agree about this particular amendment and if it is put to a vote then, as the hon. member for Laurier has already indicated, we will vote for it. But if this compromise would be acceptable both to the minister and to the hon. member for Skeena, it seems to me it would accomplish what is in mind and what I think everybody in the house would agree was a sensible thing.


George Harris Hees: I thank the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate for what he has said. At the time he started to speak the same thought was actually passing through my mind. It is a sensible suggestion, and I would ask my colleague the Minister of Veterans Affairs to propose an amendment to subclause (a) so it will read:
five members who shall be chosen from the field of Industry, commerce and organized labour.


An hon. Member:: How about agriculture and fisheries as well?


Frank Howard: That is perfectly agreeable to me, Mr. Chairman. This then leaves the general public to be represented by members of the general public and not by members of a specific group. I would withdraw the amendment in the light of what the minister has suggested.


Jacques Flynn: Does the committee consent to the hon. member withdrawing his amendment?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Chairman, I therefore move:
That clause 3, subclause (a) be amended by deleting the word "and" in line 14 and placing a comma after "industry" and adding after "commerce" the words "and organized labour".
The clause would then read as follows:
Five members who shall be chosen from the field of industry, commerce and organized labour.


Frank Howard: Before you put the amendment, Mr. Chairman, I do not want to be sticky about the grammar. Perhaps it comes from sitting next to the hon. member for Port Arthur, but should the word "field" not be in the plural so that each field will be referred to specifically? It would then read:
Five members who shall be chosen from the fields of industry, commerce and organized labour.


Gordon Minto Churchill: That is all right.


Jacques Flynn: Shall I dispense with reading the amendment?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Clause as amended agreed to.
Clauses 4 to 9 inclusive agreed to.
On clause 10-Objects.
Julia Verlyn (Judy) LaMarsh: Mr. Chairman, with reference to clause 10 the objects are stated to be to promote and expedite improvement of design in the products of Canadian industry. Then it goes on to be more specific. It has recently come to my attention that it is most necessary that this be done in Canada. I have in mind crown corporations and particularly the Canadian National Railways, which very recently had recourse not to Canadian designers but rather American designers. I refer to an article published in October, 1960, indicating that Canadian National Railways has hired an American design group known as James Valkus, Inc. to do its entire corporate identity program, said to be the largest of its kind in North America. This company is an 11-man operation located in New York with a small branch office set up in Toronto specifically to accommodate this account. I think this indicates the fact that up until this time at least Canadian consumers including these branches of government, notwithstanding the council which has been in existence, have failed to take advantage of the excellent designers in Canada.
What is perhaps even more shocking is that those who use the hotel facilities of Canadian National Railways will find in their rooms a card of excellent design which I will be pleased to send to the minister. On one side it says "Please do not disturb" and on the other side it says "Maid please attend to

this room as soon as possible". It is a little plastic card of excellent design and very noticeable. At the top on one side appear the words "Canadian National Hotels" and at the top on the other side appear the words "Printed in the United States".
I think both these things should be a cause of shame to Canada. It is shameful that with respect to a small plastic card such as this Canadian National Railways has not been able to find Canadian designers or, if they have found them, have not purchased Canadian designs from them. It is particularly shameful that in the larger sphere of creating a whole corporate image it has been thought necessary by Canadian National Railways to go outside Canada and hire an American concern for this very large program.
I suggest to the minister that action in this regard is long overdue. It is a matter to which there should be much more attention paid, and the products of Canadian industry should be the primary concern of this council, not those of industries of other countries.


George Harris Hees: I thank the hon. member for Niagara Falls for bringing this matter to my attention. If she will send me the card I should like to have a look at it. I will certainly ask Canadian National Railways why they bought such a card in the United States if a card of the same type was available in Canada. I have made inquiries of this kind in the past, not necessarily with respect to Canadian National Railways but with regard to others who have bought goods outside Canada which it seemed to me could have been bought to better advantage in Canada, and in almost every case, I think, I have been told that they would have liked to buy the particular product in Canada but it was not available. This again points up the need for people in Canada to emphasize Canadian design here in this country.
With regard to the use of Canadian design companies to assist other companies with their designs, I strongly urge all Canadian companies to make use of our own design companies, because this is the only way I know that our students who go through university and learn these arts and sciences can be employed in Canada instead of having to go to other countries for employment.
I am glad these matters are being brought to my attention and the attention of the house. I can assure those members who are bringing them to my attention that I will look into them carefully, and that I appreciate receiving this information. I will be glad to let the hon. member for Niagara Falls know the result of my investigation with respect to this particular card.
90205-6-263
National Design Council


Julia Verlyn (Judy) LaMarsh: That it will be replaced, I hope.


Frank Howard: Mr. Chairman, there is one question I have in mind with respect to clause 10, and again I have to refer to another clause, namely clause 11. Subclause 1 of clause 11 provides that the minister may refer certain matters to the council for study as he deems advisable. Subclause 2 reads as follows:
The council shall investigate and report on all matters referred to it pursuant to subsection 1 and shall make such recommendations to the minister in respect thereof as it deems appropriate.
I am reading from clause 11, and I take it to mean the council will make recommendations to the minister in respect of the matters which the minister refers to it. Where is the provision, if there is one, to the effect that the council may make recommendations on all those maters which it undertakes of its own volition?


George Harris Hees: Well, Mr. Chairman, I think all those who listened to this debate would agree that one of the most important functions of the council is to automatically refer to the minister matters which it considers are of importance. I do not believe this function needs to be specifically set out. I can assure the hon. member for Skeena that when the council starts to operate there will be no doubt in the minds of the members of that council that I want referred to me any matters that they consider of importance or would like to refer to me. In fact I expect to be attending many of these meetings, because I am particularly interested in this matter myself. I assure the hon. member that there will be no lack of opportunity for the council to make its views known to me on any occasion upon which it wishes to do so. I will welcome those suggestions.


Frank Howard: Then I feel that the bill should say so. If one refers to clause 11 of the bill one finds these words:
The council shall investigate and report on all matters referred to it pursuant to subsection 1-
That is pursuant to the minister's action.
-and shall make such recommendations to the minister in respect thereof as it deems appropriate.
Certainly I feel the council should undertake matters on its own volition, and there should be a similar statutory provision to enable the council to make recommendations and reports in respect of those matters. The minister's word may be fine and dandy. We accept the fact that he wants this to happen. However, if that is the intent of the law then that is what the law should say.


George Harris Hees: I am advised that although the wording of this bill is not the same as the

National Design Council one which set up the original design council, the intent is the same. I believe the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate, who was at least partially in charge of the original council, will assure the hon. member for Skeena that there was no reluctance on the part of the members of the council to bring to his attention, at any and all times, matters which the council felt it would like to discuss with him. Is that not correct?


John Whitney Pickersgill: That is quite correct.


George Harris Hees: I assure the hon. member there is no intention here of making it difficult for the council to bring matters to my attention. This bill simply seeks to carry forward the same spirit that was written into the original act. There was no difficulty in the operation of the original act, and I assure the hon. member there will not be any difficulty in operating under this bill.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Perhaps I might be allowed to intervene to say that I am sure it is rather more difficult to get the minister's attention than it was to get mine.


George Harris Hees: I could not agree with that.


Frank Howard: I do not want to belabour the point. However, it is not a matter of whether or not I desire to be assured or whether or not I am assured by the words of the minister. I believe his statement is correct as to the way in which council will operate. The point is, why does the bill not say so? If provision is made for this function in one instance, why is it not made in another?


Gordon Harvey Aiken: I do not want to prolong the debate, but it seems to me that clause 10 is very clear. The objects of the council are set forth in paragraphs (a) to (g). The council, I believe, is being set up primarily to assist industry not primarily to assist the government. I think the objects are set out and the council is told it must do certain things and may do other things.
The addition of the words suggested by the hon. member for Skeena would make no difference at all. The council is not required to report to the minister unless he asks for a report, and I do not believe this council should be under the thumb of the minister. If the minister wishes assistance from the council he may secure it under clause 11. Clause 10 sets out the duties and objects of the council, and I think it is a very clear statement of what is intended. I do not believe there is any need to report to the minister except in those instances in which the council feels it is necessary.


Lionel Chevrier: I wonder if the minister would allow me to bring to his attention under this clause a matter to which I have


already referred under another heading. This clause deals with the objects of the council, which are to promote and expedite improvement of design in the products of Canadian industry. I refer now to a matter which I discussed earlier on the budget resolutions and also in connection with the legislation on class or kind made in Canada, but having to do more particularly with the textile industry.
At that time I brought to the attention of the Minister of Finance three pamphlets that were written by an expert in the field of textiles. These pamphlets were afterwards sent to his parliamentary secretary at the minister's request. I shall not discuss that aspect, which is not germane at the moment, but there is one part of it which I think has reference to the design council. A suggestion was made at the time concerning the establishment of a textile council. I suggested to the minister that perhaps what I had in mind, namely some agency which would give consideration to improving the design of certain groups of textiles in Canada, might be given some consideration under the aegis of the productivity council or perhaps by the establishment of a textile council. The Primary Textiles Institute has since written to the press commenting on many of those things that were put on Hansard at the time, and stating that the Primary Textiles Institute, which has been in existence for some years, has been giving consideration to these very matters.
I rise this afternoon to point to one example which was given by the expert whose pamphlets I have given to the Minister of Finance, and to which I am sure the minister would want to give consideration after he has listened to what I have to say. This expert said it may well be that the design of some of our textiles has not been given the attention it should receive. For instance, he said there was a certain piece of woollen goods-he was referring to a sweater-that could be purchased in Switzerland at a cost of some $25 or $30. This sweater was akin to one which could be produced at La Mal-baie or Baie St. Paul for a much lesser amount, I think he said in the neighbourhood of $15. The wool is equally good, if not better, and the work is equally good, if not superior. However, the design does not compare with the design which was produced by the Swiss. It was his view that if the design of that particular commodity could be given to a group of experts who would work on it and make it more attractive, there would be a good demand for the article and it might not be necessary to import as many of these articles as we do.

I refer only, of course, to this particular item. The pamphlet I gave the minister dealt with many others. My only purpose in rising was to ask the minister if, when the council is established whose object will be to promote and expedite improved design for the products of Canadian industry, he would give consideration to these three pamphlets that are all ready in the hands of the Minister of Finance and according to which, in the opinion of this expert, if the design of Canadian textile goods were improved it could assist tremendously in the sale of those products not only in the province of Quebec but in the other provinces and the whole of Canada. I believe there are some 780 mills, mostly in central Canada but some in the west and some in the Atlantic provinces as well. My only purpose in rising is to ask the minister to be good enough to give this matter his careful consideration.


George Harris Hees: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I will certainly do so. I am very keen about the matter which the hon. member for Laurier has raised. I have been told by a number of women that women's and children's clothes in this country, in the matter of design, do not come up to those produced in the United States and other countries, and lose out in the market for that reason and for that reason only. I am told they lose out not because of price but because of design.
I can well imagine the instance brought forward by the member for Laurier. That is just the kind of case that I should like to see this design council take hold of and help the manufacturers and the mills to which he referred produce an article of at least as good design as or, if possible, of better design than that produced in Switzerland and in that way get a much better market for the Canadian product. I thank the hon. member for Laurier for bringing this matter to my attention.


Jacques Flynn: Shall clause 10 carry?


Julia Verlyn (Judy) LaMarsh: There was one matter that I should like to mention with reference to subparagraph (g). The minister will recall, I think, that he attended a reception in the city of Ottawa about the end of last year at which an announcement was made with respect to a proposal to establish in Niagara Falls a permanent industrial exhibit. I should like to ask the minister whether, under this section, the design council will be responsible for participating in the sponsoring and arranging for such an exhibit showing particularly stylish displays of new Canadian materials in what is, after all, the foremost tourist centre in the whole dominion and a place which millions of people visit annually. It is perhaps the showcase in Canada for new 90205-6-263J
National Design Council and improved Canadian design. Is it anticipated that assistance-in a financial way, of course-might be given to such a permanent display under this particular clause?


George Harris Hees: No, not financial assistance. However, I feel sure that the council would encourage producers of certain light types of goods that could well be displayed at a centre of that kind to display their goods there. I am familiar with the particular centre about which the hon. member for Niagara Falls has spoken, because the mayor of Niagara Falls and a delegation came to see me about it several months ago. I was very much interested and assured them that I would give them all possible support and that I thought the idea was a good one. I still think so. I think it is a very forward looking step which the city of Niagara Falls is taking in this regard, and that the display centre will provide a very useful place for exhibiting Canadian products. More of this sort of thing is needed in Canada. I can assure the hon. member for Niagara Falls that we will give it every possible assistance.


Mr. Denis:: While the hon. member for Niagara Falls was speaking I noticed that she is a woman of good taste. Everyone knows that women are noted for good taste. I wonder whether the minister should not consider the advisability of naming a woman as a member of this design council, and a young man as well. If you want to follow the fashion, you are usually young. Consider a man of my age for instance. I think the minister should consider the advisability of naming as members of the design council a woman and a young man.


George Harris Hees: There is no limit one way or the other as to the ages of these people we appoint to these councils. As I said earlier, we want to get the best possible people, those who can make a really worth-while contribution. In my experience young men and young women always make a good contribution to deliberations of this kind. I feel sure that young people will be represented on this council, having in mind the ability they have demonstrated in the past and the contribution we feel they could make to the work of the council. I might say that the lady representative on the productivity council, Miss Anna Speers, is making a good and useful contribution, and I feel sure that if there was a woman representative on this council she would make an equally good and useful contribution.


Julia Verlyn (Judy) LaMarsh: I wish to inquire of the minister about one other matter. This morning I mentioned certain things which the

National Design Council national industrial design council had proposed for this year, and particularly awards of merit in a competition that is to be decided in the fall of this year. Am I to understand that the work which is already in train under the Department of Citizenship and Immigration will be carried on uninterrupted, at least until this program is completed, under this bill?


George Harris Hees: Yes, I am assured that any work that has already been started by the council will be carried on.


Julia Verlyn (Judy) LaMarsh: Is it anticipated that the same personnel will be carried over to the minister's department?


George Harris Hees: Yes, it is my understanding that is going to be done.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I have a question with regard to paragraph (f) of clause 10, which reads as follows:
(f) grant or issue certificates, citations or awards of merit in respect of Canadian products of outstanding design;
Can the minister inform the committee whether these certificates, citations or awards of merit have been decided on, or what form they are expected to take?


George Harris Hees: No, they have not been decided on. These are matters which the council itself will decide once it is set up.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Is it not the intention to follow the pattern that has been established by the existing design council in this matter? The minister must be aware that these awards have been made over the years and that a certain standard has come to be accepted for these things. I think it would be too bad to change that pattern.


George Harris Hees: Yes, it is our desire to carry on with the usual formula, but we are not limiting the work of the new council before it has been set up. It will, I feel sure, carry on the same general program. However, it must feel free to make whatever changes it, in its wisdom, considers are improvements.


[Stage Direction]
Clause agreed to.
On clause 11-Reference to council.
Mr. McMillan:: Clause 11 has to do with what the minister may refer to the council, and provides that the council shall investigate and report on all matters referred to it in pursuance of subsection 1. I was wondering whether this council could be called on to report on products admitted to Canada bearing a Canadian design. I have in mind a number of products. One in particular has to do with salmon that was imported from Japan. A year or two ago I saw a number of cans of


salmon that bore the maple leaf design and on which in small letters appeared the words "Processed in Japan". I think this is pretty close to deception. People bought this salmon thinking they were buying salmon which had been processed in British Columbia. I should like to have the minister's comments on this subject.


George Harris Hees: These matters would not be examined by the design council itself, but they are of vital interest to my department. If the hon. member knows of an example such as he has mentioned, and would write me a letter about it, or if he prefers, discuss it with Mr. Dennis Harvey, the assistant deputy minister in charge of the commodities branch of my department, we will be very glad to look into the matter. These matters are looked after by the department itself, and not by the design council.


Frank Howard: Mr. Chairman, we have had problems precisely the same as those related by the hon. member for Welland. We had this problem a few years ago, when salmon caught and packed in Japan was exported to Canada and sold under the labels of Canadian companies. The words "Produced in Japan" were printed along the side of the label, but so close to the gummed portion, which overlapped, that often the words "Product of Japan" were covered by the gummed portion of the label. But we did not deal with this matter through the Department of Trade and Commerce; it was dealt with through the Department of Fisheries. I wonder whether there is a conflict of activity here, or is it purely within the Department of Fisheries or the Department of Trade and Commerce?


George Harris Hees: Mr. Chairman, I can assure the hon. member for Skeena that we do not wish to overlap the jurisdiction of any other department. I think he and the hon. member for Welland will agree that the important thing is to have these matters dealt with efficiently and quickly.
Rather than direct the hon. member to other departments, if he will direct his inquiry or give any information that he has about this matter to my department, we will work with the Department of Fisheries. If it falls outside our jurisdiction, we will hand it over to them or any other department under whose jurisdiction it may come.
As the Department of Trade and Commerce, we are particularly interested to see that the kind of thing which has been mentioned by the hon. member for Skeena and the hon. member for Welland should not continue.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Chairman, I have just one question on clause 11 (1), which states:
The minister may refer to the council for its consideration and advice such matters relating to the promotion and expedition of the improvement of design in Canada or otherwise relating to the operation of this act as he thinks fit.
My question is this. From what source would the minister accumulate information which he would refer to the council for consideration, as indicated in clause 11 (1)?


George Harris Hees: Mr. Chairman, a good example was given by the hon. member for Laurier a few minutes ago. The hon. member raised the example of sweaters that are manufactured in certain centres in Quebec and which sell at about half the price of sweaters imported from Switzerland. As the hon. member pointed out, the sweaters manufactured in Quebec are better made and are of better material. The only factor that mitigates against their ready sale as opposed to the Swiss article is that they are not as well designed.
I would refer a matter such as that, when brought to my attention, to the president of the design council and ask him to look into it, the idea being that if the mills in Quebec can be shown how they can improve their design, it is obvious that they will get a very much bigger market in Canada for their product.
I believe with a product of this kind we would develop an export market, because obviously the Swiss article is finding ready sales throughout the world-it is finding sales in Canada-and I would like to see the Canadian product moved into the world market and displace the Swiss article.


[Stage Direction]
Clause agreed to.
On clause 12-Staff.
John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, I must say that the language of clause 12 (2) seems to be singularly indirect, to put it mildly. Apparently, if one reads it correctly-and I should like the minister to tell me whether I am reading it correctly-persons other than the officials of his department can be appointed to serve the design council, with the approval of the treasury board. But even Mr. Mackenzie King at his most deft could not have put it in a more negative way than it is put in this clause.
I should therefore like to know whether this clause does mean that if the design council is unable to find anyone in the Department of Trade and Commerce with sufficient leisure and sufficient capacity at the same time to perform the functions it needs, and if they can convince the minister that those functions
National Design Council are important, other persons can be employed for more than merely temporary periods or for specific work?


George Harris Hees: As I read the clause, it means that if the council needs additional help for temporary periods, which cannot be provided from within the government, it may acquire that help from outside the government, but it must first receive permission of treasury board to take on that extra help.
That is my interpretation of it, and I am assured by my official here that this is the correct interpretation. I am very glad it is. Therefore I am pleased to assure the committee that this is the interpretation.


John Whitney Pickersgill: In other words, it will not be possible to appoint anyone permanently; that is what the minister is saying.
Subclause (2) says:
-the minister may provide the council with such professional or technical assistance for temporary periods or for specific work-
I do not imagine the minister would embark upon specific work that was eternal. The minister is not going in for salvation in that sense. Therefore can we take it that there will be no permanent staff whatever for the design council except officials of the Department of Trade and Commerce?


George Harris Hees: Yes, that is correct; any staff will be provided from the Department of Trade and Commerce.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Chairman, could the minister give the committee an idea of the number of persons and employees of his department who are at the present time or may be in the near future engaged in this work? What number does the minister contemplate?


George Harris Hees: I understand that there will be no more than about six on the staff at the present time. I am afraid I could not give an estimate as to the exact size of the staff that will be required once the council gets into full swing.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I have another question, Mr. Chairman. The minister says there are six members on the staff, or not more than six. I hope the minister knows how many there are, since he is spending the taxpayers' money.


An hon. Member:: He has just told you.


John Whitney Pickersgill: He said there were not more than six.


George Harris Hees: I am assured that there are six.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I should like to know the status of those people. Are they members of the staff of the Department of Trade and Commerce? If they are not, or if they do not

National Design Council become members of the department before this bill comes into operation, they will join the ranks of the unemployed?


George Harris Hees: They are members of the staff of the Department of Trade and Commerce.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Could the minister say how and when they became members of the staff of the department? They certainly were not members of the staff of the Department of Trade and Commerce when the design council was under the national gallery.


George Harris Hees: Yes, they were transferred from the national gallery to the Department of Trade and Commerce some time ago.


[Stage Direction]
Clause agreed to.
On clause 14-Financial.
Julia Verlyn (Judy) LaMarsh: Mr. Chairman, has the hon. minister some idea of what amount of money is intended to be expended? Is this to be increased over and above what has been spent in the past, in conformity with the statement the minister made this morning that there will be increased vigour and attention paid to this matter now?
Will there be any limit to the expenditure in this connection? I see there is apparently no limit to the expenditure that will be made, as there was in connection with the productivity council.


George Harris Hees: I am afraid I do not know what money is going to be required. When the council is set up and starts laying out its program, we will have some idea. I can assure the hon. member and all hon. members of this committee that money will not be wasted.
I cannot think of any better way in which money can be spent than by a council of this kind. It will operate at a very minimum of expense to the government. As the hon. member will have seen, there are no salaries paid to the members of this council. Their travelling and living expenses while away from their normal places of residence will be paid by the government. But I think when you consider the tremendous value that we get from groups of public spirited citizens such as those who will be making up this council, and who make up other similar councils which serve the government and the people of Canada, it will be seen that the government and the people receive tremendous service far out of proportion to the cost in dollars and cents.	.
I can assure the hon. member that expenditures on behalf of the government will be kept to a minimum and again I say I can think of no better way in which this money can be spent. I have here the figures for next year's estimates of what the industrial design

branch of my department will be spending but they have no relationship to the industrial design council itself. I can only say again that any expenditures made in this regard will, I think, be returned to the Canadian people many times over by increases in sales and the increase in employment which we hope will accrue from our being able to develop designs superior to any we have been able to develop in the past.


Julia Verlyn (Judy) LaMarsh: I am concerned about some of the specific objects set forth in clause 10. One has to do with making: grants or scholarships tO' individuals or institutions. Is it contemplated that the new council will have a large and expanded role in awarding scholarships to designers to study here and abroad? Has any consideration been given to how much money might be made available for such expenditures by the council?


George Harris Hees: These are all matters which will receive a great deal of study by members of the council when the council is operating, I have no idea what the council will recommend to me. We hope to; get very good people to serve on this council, people who are very keen and who know a great deal about design. I feel the recommendations they will make will be good and sensible ones and I can assure the hon. member that we shall study them carefully. We shall not go over board in connection with this matter and we shall agree to expenditures, only after a good deal of consideration, but just exactly what those expenditures are likely to be and how much they will amount to I cannot tell until the council has considered these matters and made recommendations to me.


[Stage Direction]
Clause agreed to.
On clause 15-Report.
Frank Howard: I have been comparing this bill with the bill which sets out the duties of the national productivity council. I am sure it is the intention of the minister to have the report of the design council included in the annual report of his department. However, the act setting up the national productivity council provides that the report of that council shall be tabled in parliament within 15 days of its receipt, I believe it is, or within 15 days of the opening of the next sitting of parliament. I wonder why a provision similar to that has not been included in this bill.


George Harris Hees: The productivity council is
allotted money of its own over which it has jurisdiction, specifically $150,000 a year. Any moneys that are expended by the national design council come directly from the Department of Trade and Commerce. When my estimates are being examined next year I shall be only too glad to answer any questions

regarding the expenditures or operations of the design council just as I would with regard to the operations of any branch of the department.


Frank Howard: I wonder if it really is connected with whether or not the productivity council has finances of his own while this council operates through the funds and staff of the Department of Trade and Commerce. Surely there are other factors. 1 read in the act which sets up the national productivity council, or more correctly, from the bill which was placed before this house, that the chairman of the council is required within three months after the termination of each fiscal year to submit to the Minister of Trade and Commerce and to the Minister of Labour a report of all the proceedings carried out under the act for that fiscal year, including the financial statement of the council. Thus, the productivity council has two subjects upon which to report. The financial operations for that year are included, and then there are the other proceedings. It would seem to me that a sensible course would be to require the chairman of the council to submit to the minister a report of the operations of the council within three months after the termination of each fiscal year, an obligation similar to that which is placed upon the chairman of the productivity council in accordance with the act to which I have just referred. Why should such a report not be tabled in parliament together with reports of other councils and agencies, crown corporations and the like?


George Harris Hees: Other crown corporations and boards are voted specific sums of money and they operate more or less independently. This council will derive its money directly from the department. Its staff will be members of the Department of Trade and Commerce and it will derive from the department itself any money which needs to be expended. It will therefore be in the same position as a section of my department. It is not given a block of money and told to go ahead and operate. It operates in a different way and, as I say, at the end of each year when my departmental estimates come before the committee of the whole I should be glad to answer any questions and give any accounting that is asked for regarding this council. There will be no concealment from members of the committee of any activities or expenditures. They will be able to fully examine those expenditures by asking me questions and I shall be glad to answer them. I hope I have made that clear.


Frank Howard: The minister has made that part of it clear, but I do not think his answer completely covers the point I raised. Let us
Bras d'Or Coal Agreement consider the workings of the department over which the minister formerly had the honour to preside, the Department of Transport. That department looks after the Canadian maritime commission which makes a separate report, and yet the commission receives money voted by parliament to the Department of Transport. The penitentiaries branch of the Department of Justice also comes to mind. That is a separate branch within the Department of Justice and it makes a separate report, though its sole income is that voted by parliament. Consider, also, the position of the director of research and investigation in connection with the Combines Investigation Act. He receives funds from the Department of Justice. The combines branch has no money of its own other than that which comes from the department, yet a separate report is made. Here are two or three instances which come to mind immediately of bodies which receive money only as voted by this house, yet they make reports which are tabled in parliament.
Mr. Chairman, I am asking why the report of this council will not be tabled in the house. I am not referring to any attempt by the minister to hide anything. I think we all realize that the minister will, as he has assured us, answer any questions we wish to put forward but I am wondering why this report will not be tabled.


George Harris Hees: As the hon. member knows, the Minister of Trade and Commerce issues a report of his department's activities each year. Included in that report will be a report of the industrial branch of my department, and as part of its report there will be the report of the industrial design council. All hon. members will receive a report of the activities of this branch and of the industrial design council each year in booklet form as part of the total report on the activities of my department.


Frank Howard: That is the answer to the question I asked in the first place.


[Stage Direction]
Clause agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported.
Mr. Deputy Speaker:: When shall the bill
be read the third time?


John Whitney Pickersgill: At the next sitting of the house. We ought to see that amendment printed.



AMENDMENTS TO AGREEMENT WITH BRAS D'OR COAL COMPANY LIMITED

Hon. Paul Comlois (Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys) moved: that the house go into committee to consider the following resolution:
4164	HOUSE OF
Bras d'Or Coal Agreement
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to authorize certain amendments to the agreement made under the Coal Production Assistance Act with the Bras d'Or Coal Company Limited for the purpose of postponing the commencement of repayment of the loan made to the company thereunder to the 31st day of December, 1962.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Flynn in the chair.


Paul Comtois: Mr. Chairman, the purpose of this bill is to permit the company-the Bras d'Or Coal Company Limited situated at Broughton, Nova Scotia, not far from North Sydney-to defer payment of moneys loaned under the Coal Production Assistance Act. That act provides that repayments shall be made at the rate of 30 cents per ton on coal produced. The company used the money provided to buy a specialized mining machine intended specifically to increase efficiency and production. The repayment would come, in large part, from the coal produced by this machine.
In early 1959 there was an unexpected fall of ground in the mine which cut off the area where this machine and others were operating. This not only reduced the production on which the repayment was based but also forced the company to secure new machinery and spend considerable capital on a new approach to the affected area.
At the present time, the new workings have almost reached the buried machines, but it will take some time before they can be taken out of the mine, inspected, put back into operating condition, and replaced in the mine. They will not, therefore, be available for producing coal on which to base repayment, until this is completed. Because of this accident, and to conserve the working capital position, the company has requested postponement of the first repayment date to December 31, 1962 without deferment of the date on which, under the act, the final payment is due.
I must also say, Mr. Chairman, that this company obtained the first loan early in 1959 for the purpose of buying machinery to increase its production. The accident happened, the company had to stop operations, and was forced to apply for a new loan. The first loan has been regularly paid under the conditions of the loan in the amount of $14,000. Repayment has not taken place yet regarding the second loan and the company is now asking to defer the first instalment for two years.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, in the light of the explanation given by the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys, I do not think that I, or any of my friends on this side of the house, would be prepared to argue that this bill, by itself, does not represent the expedient thing to do under the circumstances.
 :!

I must say that I feel rather sorry for the minister in having to introduce this bill at this particular time, but because of the fact that this bill really preserves the working capital of this particular company and enables it to go on with its operations it must be doubly comforting to the minister in the light of the unpleasant news that he undoubtedly read in the Halifax Chronicle-Herald of April 28 under the large red headlines "Dosco Files Formal Notice-Glace Bay Mine to Close May 31". I do not intend to go into this in any detail but we do know now that it appears that three mines are going to have to be closed in Cape Breton this year unless the federal government is able to find some means of doing something about the situation.
There is no doubt that what the minister is doing now is taking one tiny nibble-not even a bite-at a problem which is so vital to the interests of one of the ten provinces of Canada that it is in every respect a national problem amounting to a crisis.
I feel that in saying anything about this particular measure that the government is proposing to bring in, one cannot help but say that it would have been more expedient if the government had come forward with- perhaps not a solution to the problem because I do not think the government, or anyone else at this time, has any assurance of a solution-but some steps to be taken to make sure that these mines are not closed or-


Gordon Harvey Aiken: Mr. Chairman, I rise on a point of order. I have not interrupted the hon. member before now because I thought he was going to make some passing reference to other mines or the coal situation generally. I would suggest, however, that a general discussion regarding the coal situation, if the hon. member intends to go further, would be out of order.


John Whitney Pickersgill: On the point of order raised by the hon. member for Parry Sound-Muskoka, I would agree that if we were on the bill, of which we only have notice here, it would be quite inappropriate to discuss anything except the principle of the bill. But what we are doing here, and this has often been discussed before on points of order at the committee stage of a financial resolution, is to decide Whether or not a particular sum of money should be spent out of the treasury.
I say, sir, without any fear of contradiction, even by hon. gentlemen opposite, that this is one area where it would be more expedient-I follow the language as nearly as I can-to spend more money out of the treasury in order to avoid what in my opinion will be something closely approaching a national calamity. It is on that basis that I



I. 1961

[Stage Direction]
feel what I have been saying is quite appropriate. I would think it would not be appropriate to embark upon a general debate on the coal industry, but all I intended to do was to suggest in a very brief sort of way how an alternative resolution would be much more acceptable to certain members of the committee than the resolution we have before us. I grant you, sir, that I am under certain limitations in doing so. I am a member of the opposition and while it is true that I happen to be one of Her Majesty's privy councillors I am temporarily unemployed in that capacity. Unfortunately, however, there are many of Her Majesty's subjects who are going to be unemployed for a very long time if we do not grapple with the problem in Cape Breton in a more effective way than this resolution does.
Everyone agrees that we cannot mine coal just to build it into mountains. The minister did try that for a while and he became discouraged with that policy. I must say I should like to congratulate the minister, the coal board and everyone in the federal government who had any part in convincing Ontario hydro that they should use some of this coal. I am sure the minister was quite cheered up by that as was everyone who has at heart the interests of the people of that area. But there again, sir, one wonders whether it would not be more satisfactory to be generating electricity with that coal in Nova Scotia and using it in Nova Scotia.
Jacques Flynn: Order. I do not know at what point the hon. member stopped discussing the point of order but I am quite sure it was some time ago. I must say I have not been convinced by his argument that because we are at the resolution stage we can discuss any alternative proposal in the way he put it. I think the subject before the committee as outlined by the resolution is a very limited one. The resolution refers only to postponing the commencement of repayment of a loan because of a certain accident. Therefore I am sure the hon. member will agree with me that under such circumstances we are not permitted to discuss the coal situation in general. I felt that the hon. member could make some passing references to it but now I think he is going further than that.


John Whitney Pickersgill: In that case, sir, I shall be obliged, I suppose, to point out reasons why I do not think it is expedient to proceed with this resolution at this particular moment. I am sure Your Honour would not object to my taking that line of argument. I do not think it is expedient to proceed with this resolution until the government has laid before us a program to deal with the much larger
Bras d'Or Coal Agreement and more serious problem which is imminent in Cape Breton at the present time. I say that for many reasons, not the least of which is the fact that the house is sitting very long hours and that we could economize on the time of the house if the government had brought in one single resolution dealing with the whole problem instead of taking this piecemeal approach to the problem.


Mr. Maclnnis:: May I ask the hon. member a question?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Certainly.


Donald MacInnis: Is it the hon. member's intention in putting forward this argument that the smaller operations in Cape Breton should be sacrificed while at the same time the government is making every effort to maintain the larger operations? Is the hon. member going to vote for this measure? Does he consider that the smaller operator also has to be taken care of?


John Whitney Pickersgill: At the conclusion of my remarks I will be very happy to answer the question of the hon. member for Cape Breton South who, I am sure, is just as much concerned as I am with the well-being of the coal miners. As I was saying, it does seem to me that it would have been more expedient at this time, when the problem has already become urgent, to have brought in a resolution, to have dealt with the real problem of the area. Although the problem involved in the resolution now before us is one which ought to be dealt with and, it seems to me, is perhaps by itself being dealt with in the right way, it is nevertheless a very minor problem.
If at the same time the government could have brought in its resolution indicating what it proposes to do about the closing of mines in Cape Breton and, above all, what it proposes to do to provide not just relief but alternative employment for the people in this historic area of our country, it seems to me we would have been able to accept this resolution with a good deal more satisfaction than is possible having regard to the unfortunate circumstances which prevail at the present time and about which, I regret very much to say, the ministers seem to have nothing to propose.


Mr. Muir (Cape Breton North and Victoria):: Mr. Chairman, since the Bras d'Or Coal Company is located in my constituency I thought I should like to say a few words on the resolution. The Bras d'Or Coal Company is a member of the Nova Scotia independent coal operators' association and among the members of that association are Campbell Mine Limited, Chestico Mining Corporation, S. J. Doucet, Drummond Coal Company Limited,
4166	HOUSE OF
Bras d'Or Coal Agreement Evans Coal Mines Limited, Greenwood Coal Company Limited, Indian Cove Coal Company Limited, Joggins Coal Company Limited, River Hebert Coal Company Limited and the Springhill Coal Mines Limited.
If I may give a little of the background of the independent mine operators, I should like to point out that in 1959 these operators produced 376,454 tons of coal with a labour force of between 750 and 800 miners. The labour force was approximately 10 per cent of the miners employed in Nova Scotia. Their production has a reported value of approximately $4 million.
The importance of coal mining in any community is understood better when one realizes that 60 per cent of the value of the coal produced is represented by wages and employee welfare benefits and that the major portion of the remaining 40 per cent is spent within the community on the purchase of power, pit props and timber, transportation and so forth. It is my opinion that the importance of the independent coal operator to his community cannot be minimized and that any future assistance rendered by the federal government and the government of the province of Nova Scotia cannot exclude the independent operator. The 1959 report of the dominion coal board discusses the crisis in the coal industry and the reasons for the impact of bad times in Nova Scotia. The report contains the following short comment:
The first of them is the extent of the dependence of Nova Scotia upon coal. There is no counterpart in the economy of any other province to this degree of dependence.


Jacques Flynn: Order. I think I must draw to the attention of the hon. member the fact that I ruled the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate should not be allowed to debate the coal situation in general. The same ruling, therefore, would apply to the hon. member. As I indicated, the scope of the resolution is very narrow because it refers to the loan made to one company and suggests the postponement of the repayment of that loan because of a certain accident. I, therefore, would ask the co-operation of the hon. member.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I hasten to assure Your Honour that if Your Honour wishes to relax the rules for both sides there will be no objection from the official opposition.


Jacques Flynn: But there might be from some quarters that we do not suspect at the moment.


Robert Muir: With due respect, Mr. Chairman, I may say that I realize the situation. I was trying to lay a certain foundation for my future


remarks. Surely, even you, Mr. Chairman, would not expect me to stray as far away from the subject as the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate.
There was only one more sentence in this quotation:
There are estimates that coal is the basis, directly and indirectly of about 25 per cent of all Nova Scotian economic life and activity.
By passing the resolution before us, we will be assisting in a small way in alleviating the crisis I have just mentioned. The Bras d'Or Coal Company has been in business for almost 50 years. The present company was organized in 1916. I should like to say a few words about this company because I speak from personal experience, having worked in the mines for 15 years with the independent operators and for nine of those years I was with the Bras d'Or Coal Company.
As I said, the present company was organized in 1916. They took over the old mine of the Colonial Coal Company at Bras d'Or, which is more commonly known as the Toronto mine. When this mine was worked out, the Franklin mine was started, and it was located just outside of Florence. This mine has now closed. This is the mine with which I am more familiar, having worked in it. During that period I suffered a fractured spine as a result of a rock fall and I also experienced a mine explosion which terminated my duties underground. The Franklin mine was the first in Nova Scotia, possibly in all Canada, to be fully mechanized. It had a fully mechanized coal mining and loading system. This company was also the first in Nova Scotia to develop and prepare properly screened and sized oil treated coal for domestic use. This market development started as far back as 1913. I may say they have a group insurance plan for their employees which was started about 1927 and is still in operation. The company contributes one third and the employees two thirds of the cost.
At the Four Star mine, which is the one with which the resolution is concerned, they installed the first slope belt conveyor by means of which the coal is moved directly from the coal face to the surface preparation plant by a series of conveyors. This installation was made possible by a loan from the coal board which, I understand, was repaid in full. Then they purchased a Joy continuous miner with a second loan from the coal board and, I understand, this loan was also fully repaid. A third loan was obtained for an additional machine which was lost as a result of a creep in the mine. A creep is a cave-in whereby the roof and the floor come together. Naturally this creates a disastrous

situation. This machine was lost before it had mined more than a few thousand tons of coal. It took 19 months to circumvent the disaster area and get to the point where it was felt it might be possible to reclaim the equipment. I have been informed within the last few days that they have been able to break through in these workings and locate these machines.
The company lost a total of some $350,000 worth of equipment in the cave-in. It is hoped that they will recover some $150,000 worth and put it back in service again. If they are able to recover the two Wilcox miners which are presently under water, the amount of the loss might be considerably reduced. The men employed here are all members of the united mine workers of America and, so far as I know, their relations with the company are very good. From experience I can tell you that during the years I was with the company their relations with the union were always very good. The company was most cooperative at all times. The only difficulty has been that the Bras d'Or Coal Company has never had what we would call a decent coal seam to operate. They have been mining marginal deposits, thin seams which were subleased from others. It is only too bad that they did not have some of the seams that are in mines being closed by the Dominion Coal Company. In the last few years, the company has never been idle as a result of lack of orders. There was some idle time after the cave-in, but they have never been idle as a result of lack of orders. I believe it is quite possible others could learn from these independent operators about coal mining and the selling of coal. It may be that they have not made too much profit. If they had, I doubt if they would have been borrowing money from the coal board as they did.
The company has been able to keep on a full working force and has even gone to the extent of stockpiling coal in the summer at considerable extra expense. I hope they will be able to continue that practice this coming summer. All the independent coal companies in Nova Scotia are in much the same position as the Bras d'Or Coal Company, and none of them has coal of a quality approaching that found in mines operated by the Dominion Coal Company. None of these companies receive as much by way of freight subvention as the Dominion Coal Company. The Dominion Coal Company receives $8.75 per ton to Ontario, whereas the independent operators are restricted to $5.00 per ton to the same area. Dominion gets a freight subvention on water carried coal to Montreal plus a backhaul, and an additional amount for furtherance inland, whereas the independent companies get only a percentage of the rail freight from the mine to the consumers'
Bras d'Or Coal Agreement town or city. This puts the independent operators at a decided disadvantage in Ontario and in the eastern townships of Quebec.
Recently the independent coal operators of Nova Scotia presented a brief to the minister. I think the points they have in their brief have a bearing on the future operations of these companies as well as on future loans they may have to secure from the dominion coal board. In that brief they request that no limitation be placed on the production or distribution of coal mined by independent coal operators; that they be treated as an integral part of the Nova Scotia coal industry and not discriminated against by federal government action merely on the basis of size. I have mentioned the subventions that were available.


Jacques Flynn: I think the hon. member is again straying from the subject matter of the resolution. If he has exhausted his remarks with regard to the resolution, I would ask him to permit the next speaker to take the floor.


John Whitney Pickersgill: On the point of order, Mr. Chairman, you have raised, I would submit my hon. friend has related the subvention question very directly to this question by saying that the subventions would have an effect on the capacity of the company to repay the loans which we are now discussing. I feel that this particular observation of the hon. member is relevant to the resolution and that he should be permitted to complete it.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: On the point of order, Mr. Chairman, I want to assure you that there is no objection from the quarter from which you suspected there might be objection with respect to allowing both sides of the house certain latitude on this resolution.


Jacques Flynn: I want to assure the hon. member for Kootenay West that the corner I suspected is not that about which he is thinking. I was rather thinking of hon. members in other parts of the chamber who may not have the same interest in this limited problem as have hon. members who have already taken part in the debate.
To the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillin-gate I must say this. If I accepted his viewpoint I doubt that I could attach any meaning to the word "relevancy". Relevancy is something which may vary, of course. However, it is a matter which cannot be interpreted as meaning the acceptance of any argument which, in the view of an hon. member, may be justified.


Robert Muir: Mr. Chairman, I quite realize the difficulty there is in keeping some unruly members in their proper position. At this time I should
4168	HOUSE OF
Bras d'Or Coal Agreement like to cease my remarks on this point because, considering the source from which the assistance has come-it was from directly opposite me-I am rather wary of it.


An hon. Member:: You had better be wary of it.


Robert Muir: As someone said, beware of the Greeks bearing gifts. I certainly feel that way at this moment. However, if I may, I shall continue on another point, namely the problem that is facing the independent operators today.
Based on the situation of the independent operators and this loan that has been made, there is some fear in the hearts of a company like the Bras d'Or Coal Company Limited that the recommendations in the recent Rand report-and I do not intend to go into that matter at this time-discriminate against the independent operators in Nova Scotia. I would therefore suggest that the plight of the independent coal operators be investigated thoroughly before any new policy is brought down.
I could go into details on the other matters mentioned by the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate, but since I am rather confined and restricted on this occasion, probably an opportunity will arise in the future for me to do so. It is interesting to note, however, that during the period from 1936 to 1956, a period of Liberal reign provincially and federally, 64 coal mines closed in Nova Scotia, and the hon. gentleman was a member of one of those governments.


Jacques Flynn: Order. I think the hon. member has just demonstrated why it is extremely important to apply the rule of relevancy.


Robert Muir: I am sorry, Mr. Chairman. Before resuming my seat I should like to take this opportunity to urge the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys and the government to get cracking on the problem confronting the miners of Cape Breton. Every effort must still be made, despite the views of the company concerned, to delay if at all possible this proposed closure of mines, to make plans for the workers involved in the event of closure and to announce those plans as soon as possible. With these few remarks I would urge this committee to give quick passage to the resolution before us because this company is very worthy of consideration.


Mr.   Chairman@: Shall the resolution carry?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Just before it carries, I want to indicate that not only are we in the official opposition completely in support of this resolution but that if, when the resolution


is carried, the minister-because I understand there is a problem of a date on which the loan must be extended and so on-would like to proceed with the other stages of what is, after all, a purely routine measure involving nothing new, there would be no objection from the official opposition.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: On behalf of this group I want to say that we support this measure and will do all we can to facilitate its passage.
Resolution reported and concurred in.
Mr. Comiois thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. C-87, to authorize certain amendments to the agreement made under the Coal Production Assistance Act with the Bras d'Or Coal Company Limited.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: When shall the said bill be read a second time?


Some hon. Members:: Now.


John Whitney Pickersgill: By leave.


Mr. Comiois moved: the second reading of the bill.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Flynn in the chair.
On clause 1.
Mr. Caron:: Is the bill printed in both French and English? We have no copy of it. (Translation):


Paul Comtois: Mr. Chairman, in reply to the hon. member for Hull (Mr. Caron), I must report that four or five copies of the bill have been distributed.
It is only a matter of amending an existing bill in order to give to the debtor company, the Bras d'Or Company, more time for its payments. That is the only amendment to be made.


Alexis Pierre Caron: Mr. Chairman, I will not insist, but as a matter of principle and in the normal course of things bills should be available to us in both French and English on first and second readings. But I will not press the matter any further, since we are dealing with a single amendment.


Mr. Bourque:: Mr. Chairman, if four copies of the bill were printed, I do not see why the printer could not run off a hundred copies while he was at it; it would only take four minutes to print an additional 96 copies.


Jacques Flynn: Order. If hon. members object because there is no French version of the bill, we cannot proceed with it. However, the house had agreed to take it up, although,

normally, second reading was not due until tomorrow or some other day. Therefore, if there is no objection-


Romuald Bourque: Mr. Chairman, I for one have no objection; but it has been mentioned that only four copies were printed. Now those machines can turn out as many as 5,000 copies per hour. Consequently, I do not see why enough copies could not be produced.


Mr. Ricard:: They never found out about this in 20 years.


Jacques Flynn: I understand copies will be forthcoming in a few minutes, so if hon. members care to wait a bit-
(Text):


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, I wonder whether in the circumstances, in view of the fact that we did consent to second reading and we are now in committee, it could be understood that we will not proceed to third reading without having copies of the bill available in both languages. I wonder whether that would meet all the difficulties.
The point is very well taken, of course, that the rights of the two languages are absolutely equal in this house and the bill should be in both languages. Of course, if we had not facilitated second reading today, by the time it would normally have been dealt with tomorrow the bill would have been printed in both languages.
All these bills have to be translated and printed anyway. One wonders whether perhaps more precautions could be taken to see that there are a few copies in each language before even the number is put on. Then embarrassments of this kind would not arise in the future.


Paul Comtois: I must admit, Mr. Chairman, that I did not anticipate the bill being given second reading this afternoon. Therefore I did not ask for or require any more copies. I expected the bill would come up for second reading late tomorrow.
I had an understanding with the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate-


John Whitney Pickersgill: With respect to second reading.


Joseph-Roland Comtois: -and I am afraid I did not anticipate this happening.


Romuald Bourque: Mr. Chairman, the point I was making is that on many occasions since I have been in this house the government has said, "We have only four or five copies".
The printing presses run at about 5,000 copies an hour and there is no reason why,
Army Benevolent Fund Act if they have four or five copies, they cannot have 250 copies just as easily.
(Translation):


Azellus Denis: Mr. Chairman, following your statement that four French copies of this bill have been distributed, I would point out that there are more than four French-speaking members in the house, both on the opposition side and on the government side. Furthermore, the minister who proposed the amendment is French-speaking.


Jacques Flynn: I have already stated that if there were any objection, the committee could not proceed with the bill if it is not printed in both languages.


Azellus Denis: Mr. Chairman, I think we can withdraw our objection, provided there is no recurrence of such incident.


Jacques Flynn: I also wish to be sure that there will not be any recurrence on the hon. members' side.
(Text):
Clauses 1 and 2 agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
Title agreed to.
Bill reported.
Mr. Deputy Speaker:: When shall the said bill be read a third time?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Next sitting of the house.



ARMY BENEVOLENT FUND ACT


Gordon Minto Churchill: that the house go into committee to consider the following resolution:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to amend the Army Benevolent Fund Act to increase the rates of interest to be credited to the fund by the receiver general semi-annually on the minimum balance to the credit of the fund in each month; and to provide for certain changes in connection with the administration of the act.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Flynn in the chair.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Chairman, I have a short statement to make in connection with the proposed bill. The Army Benevolent Fund Act was passed in 1947 to establish a fund for the benefit of those who served in the Canadian army during world war II.
During the war extensive services were performed for the troops by various agencies, including several auxiliary services organized
4170	HOUSE OF
Army Benevolent Fund Act in Canada and the navy, army and air force institute, in the benefits of which the Canadian forces participated.
The moneys accumulated by these services, and some additional funds which became available from sales on troopships and the sales of kitchen by-products, were gathered together and added to the moneys remaining in the regimental funds of army units. The total amount of all these moneys was somewhat over $9 million.
The act of 1947 established the army benevolent fund board for the administration and distribution of these funds. Since that time the board has continued to operate in a satisfactory way with the assistance of provincial committees, and up to March 31, 1960, distributed nearly $6 million. In their endeavour to continue the measure of assistance which was originally contemplated, the expenditures from the fund have so far been somewhat greater than planned.
In 1952, in order to help this situation some assistance was given by increasing the rate of interest payable on the fund. If hon. members wish to refer to that earlier debate, they will find it in Hansard for June 10, 1952, on page 3108.
The main proposal of the present bill recognizes the same problem, together with the well-known fact that rates of interest have been consistently higher than now authorized by this legislation. Therefore an increase of one half of 1 per cent is proposed.
This would increase the rate payable to 4 per cent per annum to the extent that the minimum balance of the fund does not exceed $5 million, and 3 per cent per annum to the extent that the minimum balance exceeds $5 million.
The estimated annual cost to treasury of this proposed amendment is $32,000, which will of course reduce as time goes on. The opportunity has also been taken to include two comparatively minor administrative amendments to the act which are found to be desirable.
The first of these is to allow the army benevolent fund board to set the salary of the secretary of the board. The salary of $6,500 a year now contained in the act was set in 1947 and has never been changed. In the interval there have been a number of general salary increases throughout the civil service, and it is thought only appropriate that the salary of this officer should not be restricted as it is at present. The board now has the authority to incur other administrative expenses, including salaries for its other employees.
The second minor amendment deletes from section 11 of the act a requirement which does not now and in fact never did exist.


When the administrative organization serving the board was originally contemplated, it was expected that the provincial committees would handle funds and that their accounts would be audited on a local basis. That has not been followed and all auditing is done centrally in Ottawa.
This portion of the section is non-effective and the proposal is to drop it, following a suggestion made by the Auditor General.
Mr. Chairman, that constitutes a brief introduction to the bill. As with other bills which come under the veterans charter, it is the intention, if the house approves, to refer the measure to the standing committee on veterans affairs after second reading for further consideration. Consequently at this time perhaps this committee does not want to go into too great detail with regard to this particular fund. Following the resolution stage and first reading the bill will be distributed and it should be available for consideration on second reading tomorrow. If second reading is given, the matter will be referred to the committee on veterans affairs and in due course it will come back to the house.
I commend this measure to hon. members. It will give the fund more money for a very essential service which it has been performing for veterans who need special assistance.


Mr. Carter:: I rise to indicate our support for this resolution and I should also like to take advantage of this opportunity to pay tribute to the army benevolent fund board and the work they have done and are doing. As the minister said, the board was established by an act of this parliament in 1947. Prior to that the fund had been administered by the regimental funds board who reported to parliament through the minister of defence. This change was brought about by a recommendation of a special parliamentary committee set up in February, 1947.
The bill establishing the army benevolent fund board was drafted by that special parliamentary committee and appended to its report to parliament-a very rare if not unique event. This bill provided that the fund should be administered by a board and it stipulated that at least one member of the board should be nominated by the royal Canadian legion and another by the national council of veterans' associations. No member of the board was to occupy any position in the public service of Canada. The bill also provided for a veterans welfare program and in 1953 the army benevolent fund board worked out a second program jointly with the board of directors of the Canadian army welfare fund. This program was approved by the cabinet in 1953 and became known as the Canadian army financial welfare program.

Under these two programs assistance has been given to veterans and their dependents, to the widows and orphans of deceased veterans and to second world war veterans who are still serving in the Canadian army. The type of assistance rendered is mainly of a kind intended to meet unexpected contingencies and to help veterans and their families out of various financial difficulties.
Included among these activities have been arrangements to have debts adjusted and orderly repayment made when the debts have been incurred for justifiable reasons. In addition the board has set up a counselling service which has assisted veterans' families in budgeting and money management.
Another service has been rendered to unemployed veterans. In these cases no direct relief can be given but the special employment program of the army benevolent fund board helps veterans in relocating to places where jobs are available and in retraining them and supplying them with tools of the trade. These activities have been co-ordinated with the work done by the Canadian naval service benevolent fund and the R.C.A.F. benevolent fund. Many worthy families have been saved from financial disaster and restored to a sound economic footing as a result of this work.
The funds which are being administered originated, as the minister has told us, mainly through canteen profits but they have also been augmented from other sources because many large camps had various enterprises attached to them such as theatres, curling rinks, bus services and so on all of which provided profits which would contribute to the general fund. As the minister has also told us, the original amount in 1947 was $8,134,934. It was expected that another million dollars would be added, making approximately $9 million.
On March 31 last the fund had declined to $6,863,020. The purpose of this bill, as the minister has just said, is two fold. In the first place it seeks to increase to 4 per cent the rate of interest being paid on the fund and it also seeks to make provision for certain changes in administration. We fully agree with the principle of both these changes and intend to support the resolution.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I rise on behalf of this group to support the purpose of this resolution. I am not saying, however, that we shall be altogether satisfied with the bill when it is introduced.
It is interesting to look back to the year 1947. I was a member of the special committee on veterans affairs which dealt with this legislation, in particular, at that time, as mentioned by the previous speaker. Shortly
Army Benevolent Fund Act after the act came into effect a total of something over $9 million was available to the fund. Last year, according to an excellent report submitted by Mr. Chatterton to the standing committee on veterans affairs, we were informed that the board had completed 12 years of operation of the veterans welfare program as provided for in the Army Benevolent Fund Act and seven years of operation of the Canadian army welfare program as provided for in the arrangements between the board of directors of the Canadian army welfare fund and the army benevolent fund as approved by the cabinet in 1953. As mentioned by the previous speaker, we were told that the fund had been reduced to something less than $7 million.
Throughout the years there have been certain suggestions made with respect to assistance in the administration and in recent years it has been the practice for the government to grant $18,000 a year toward the administrative costs of the army benevolent fund. We were told that the average amount of the grants was in the nature of half a million dollars a year and from personal experience I know of the excellent work which has been done by the board. This fund has served a very useful purpose indeed. In fact, on a number of occasions of which I am aware it has proved a virtual life saver to the veteran concerned.
I was very interested last year when it was brought to our attention that a veteran, who was in rather deep water, felt that if he could be granted sufficient money to purchase a horse he could skid logs and get out of debt. The board provided the money, he was able to skid the logs, and he finally got back on his feet. I would suggest this is an example of the purpose of the fund. I know of numerous cases where this fund has been of great advantage to veterans who found themselves in difficult circumstances. In view of the good work enabled by this fund, it is natural on our part to want to see that the fund is continued as long as possible, commensurate with meeting needs and circumstances of the day.
I must say that as a result of our experience after the first world war, in regard to other funds, this fund has been administered on a very sound, practical and humane basis. Originally, as I understood it, interest was set at 2J per cent which, in the light of the circumstances at the time the fund was established, as the hon. member for Essex East would say, seemed very reasonable indeed. It was later found necessary to increase the interest, and I understand the interest is now 3J per cent on the first $5 million and 3 per cent on the balance. This resolution, without doubt has been brought to

Army Benevolent Fund Act the attention of the committee by the minister as the result of certain prodding of the government by those individuals who felt that the fund should earn more interest in view of present circumstances. I know that officials of the royal Canadian legion and the national council of veterans have had this in mind. I am quite sure from reading the reports of the army benevolent fund over the years that in recent years the officials of that organization felt there was complete justification for increasing the interest rate at this time and thereby the earning power of the fund which would in turn extend its life.
There is no mention of a specific interest rate in this resolution. Governments have the habit of sort of pulling the rabbit out of the hat later on and we will look forward to seeing what is in the hat. However, I do suggest in view of present circumstances, and because of the fact that loans are being made at 5 per cent, we could very well establish an interest rate of 5 per cent in respect of the army benevolent fund to make certain that the fund is kept in existence as long as possible. We look forward to reading the bill when it is brought forward in the house.
One other amendment I suggest we could look for in this resolution would be an amendment granting the benefits of the army benevolent fund to Newfoundland veterans. This matter has been brought to the attention of the house by the immediately preceding speaker and has been mentioned on a number of other occasions. The reason given for excluding Newfoundland veterans from receiving the benefits of this fund is that they were not, at the time they served in the second world war, members of the Canadian armed forces. I think this is splitting hairs because Newfoundland is part of confederation now. I want to join my voice with the voice of the hon. member for-I can never pronounce the constituency-


John Whitney Pickersgill: Burin-Burgeo.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I refer to the voice of that member from that isolated part of Newfoundland. The veterans resident there are entitled to their rights the same as everyone else. I would join my voice with his in urging the government to give consideration to an amendment to the act which would extend to those veterans resident in Newfoundland the privileges enjoyed by those veterans who served in the Canadian armed forces prior to the entry of Newfoundland into confederation. Those individuals fought for the same cause, for the same purpose, and are now veterans and citizens of the same country.


William Hector McMillan: Mr. Chairman, in looking over the annual report to March 31, 1960 of the army benevolent fund I see the names of


the chairman, the four members of the board, the members of the nine provincial special committees including all the provinces except Newfoundland, and one overseas committee, and I would like at this time to pay tribute to the chairman, the members of the board and the members of those special committees for the good work they have been doing. I have seen some evidence of this while practising medicine.
This fund was set up in 1954 to incorporate the management of the army canteen fund and other service funds. They were all brought under the one act. At that particular time the interest rate was 2J per cent paid on the whole amount. In 1952 the act was amended in respect of interest only. According to that amendment the interest on the fund was set at 3J per cent on the first $5 million and 2J per cent on the balance. The minister has said today that the proposed interest rate would be up one half of one per cent in both cases. This will mean that the highest interest rate possible is 4 per cent. The government certainly cannot borrow money at an interest rate lower than 5 per cent today, which is 1 per cent higher than the highest proposed interest rate in respect of this fund. The previous government paid an interest rate very much closer to the interest rate on the market at that time.
Originally the board was guided by certain principles, one being that there would be prospective beneficiaries for 50 years. In 1958 and 1959 the fund was depleted by over $300,000 per year. Last year the fund was depleted, as at March 31, 1960, by $317,000. If the fund is depleted at this rate it will soon not exist at all. I am not criticizing the management of the fund but am calling this situation to the attention of this committee. Unless there is some extra money put into this fund, and if it is depleted at the rate of approximately $320,000 per year, it will soon be gone. It was suggested when the fund was set up that it would run for some 40 more years. I notice now that there is some $6 million with the government, and over $250,000 in conversion loans at 4J per cent due in 1983, and the fund has already taken a loss of something over $30,000 in respect of these bonds at present market values.
I should like to ask the minister who controls these funds. Does the board have control or does he or does the Minister of Finance? I have often wondered about that. I know that there are several other funds in existence. Probably conversion loan bonds were also bought by those funds and I should like to know whether or not they also suffered losses. I do not suppose the minister can answer that question at this time.

I think the board is doing excellent work. As I said before, a number of very worthy cases have come to my notice. The fund is also in the lending field, and I was surprised to learn the amount of money that has been lent to veterans and the small losses that have been sustained. After we see the bill we will be able to discuss the matter further.


Julia Verlyn (Judy) LaMarsh: Mr. Chairman, I have nothing particularly edifying to say today with respect to the resolution but I cannot let pass this opportunity to make a few comments about the fund. In the brief time I have been in the house only one matter has come before the fund in which I have been concerned. I have been asked to indicate not only the approval of the recipients with respect to the action of the fund but also of a great many veterans in the area and veterans organizations.
The army benevolent fund is perhaps not too well known to the general public and not as well known to veterans as it might be. The particular case which came to my attention concerned a veteran with an exceptionally fine war record who had suffered a very debilitating disease. He has a wife and small children of school age and these people were absolutely incapable of meeting even the hospital and medical accounts. This woman came to me in sheer desperation after she had been every place where she thought she might conceivably obtain assistance. The matter was referred to the directors of the army benevolent fund in Ontario who with a minimum of red tape, which I think is most unusual in matters that are the responsibility of the government, and great consideration for the feelings of the people involved and the record of the veteran, took over the payment of these accounts. This had a most beneficial effect with respect to the wife and the children because the children were able to remain at school and the wife was able to carry on with their support. However, perhaps even more important, so far as the veteran himself is concerned, the provision of assistance has enabled him to be freed of financial responsibility and of worry so far as his family and his own future are concerned.
This is just one example of the feeling of Canadians with respect to the importance of the contribution made in the past by our veterans and indicates that Canada has not forgotten and, I hope, will never forget the contribution they made and also indicates our desire to continue to assist deserving cases.
As a former member of an army mess, I think the fund could not be put to better use. Those of us who served in second war as well as those who served in the first war are happy
Army Benevolent Fund Act to know that the funds that were turned over at the completion of service are being used for the assistance of our fellows who, when they left the service or in the years since, have not been too well treated by the fates. While this is only a small thing, I cannot let the opportunity pass without extending a pat on the back to those who administer the army benevolent fund for this example at least of their generosity and their attention to detail.


Chesley William Carter: Mr. Chairman, I just want to express my support for the plea put forward by the hon. member for Kootenay West on behalf of Newfoundland veterans and also to express to him my personal thanks for his assistance in this regard. I hope the minister will find it possible to give favourable consideration to this matter.


Mr. Jones:: Mr. Chairman, I do not intend to make more than a few very brief remarks at this time, but in view of some of the comments that have been made I thought it might be useful to put on the record the actual sources of these funds. These funds are available for the benefit of world war II veterans. Members who are veterans of the first world war will probably recall canteen funds from that war being put to similar use. I understand there are world war I canteen funds still in existence in Ontario, Manitoba and New Brunswick but in the other provinces they have since been exhausted.
The funds in question today arose from the second world war and were derived from these sources as a result of the army's activities:	Regimental funds of army units,
$3,047,000; auxiliary services such as the Y.M.C.A., Canadian Legion, Knights of Columbus and Salvation Army, $2,739,000; an organization known as Bronco, a purchasing agency for the auxiliary services, $1,264,000. The navy, army and air force institutes, which are, of course, British organizations, made a contribution on the basis of what they considered would reflect the profit they had made on sales to Canadians in the second world war, and the amount was $1,368,000. Then there is a miscellaneous amount derived from army benefit shows, sales on troop ships, kitchen by-product sales and so on totalling $875,000, and the over-all total is $9,293,000.
These are the sources of the funds about which we are talking and, as I mentioned at the start, they were derived as a result of the activities of our second world war army veterans.
As has been pointed out by other speakers in the debate, the other Canadian services in the second world war have their own funds and, as I mentioned earlier, there are

Vocational Rehabilitation some funds left from the first world war which are administered provincially and are not involved in the matter now before us. In dealing with this matter we have to consider the sources from which these funds came.
I think it might be of interest to know something of the record of assistance under this fund. It is familiar to many members. They know at first hand, as we all do, of cases of valuable assistance which has been rendered by the fund. However, as far as the statistical record is concerned, I should like to point out that from September, 1957, to March, 1960, the fund made financial grants amounting to $4,691,131. Assistance obtained from welfare and medical agencies in respect of army benevolent fund cases amounted to $345,339 and the fund obtained reductions for veterans in settlements with creditors to a value of $919,605.
In other words, the fund in a direct monetary way, through its own grants, through being able to effect assistance in the settlement of debts and in respect of assistance obtained from welfare and medical agencies, rendered assistance to a total value of $5,956,075, almost $6 million. This is a very considerable amount of assistance and, coupled with the wise counsel that the fund gives through its officers in the various provinces who give their time voluntarily in order to serve their fellow veterans in this way, is of inestimable value.
Resolution reported and concurred in.
Mr. Churchill thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. C-88 to amend the Army Benevolent Fund Act.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: When shall the bill be read a second time, next sitting?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Perhaps the minister would like to have second reading now?


Gordon Minto Churchill: I am not certain that the bill is ready for distribution. Second reading tomorrow would be quite satisfactory.



VOCATIONAL REHABILITATION


Hon. Michael Starr (Minister of Labour) moved: the second reading of Bill No. C-84, respecting the vocational rehabilitation of disabled persons and the co-ordination of rehabilitation services.
He said: Mr. Speaker, the main purpose of this legislation is to authorize the government of Canada to enter into agreements with

the provinces respecting support for their efforts to develop a comprehensive and coordinated program of vocational rehabilitation for disabled persons. It is an honour for me to be associated with legislation, the high purpose of which is to help ensure that thousands of our disabled citizens will have more useful lives.
As was expected, hon. members from all parties endorsed the purpose of this bill when they spoke at the resolution stage. Wherever possible it is more desirable, more beneficial and more humane to restore the disabled to vocational usefulness than to support them in demoralizing dependency. I want to thank hon. members who have spoken on this subject. They have obviously studied the present situation, and in doing this they must have realized that under present provisions, securing the various services necessary to the vocational rehabilitation of the disabled can be a baffling and time consuming process. I feel, and I am sure we all feel, it is time to remove much of the confusion surrounding this field.
I feel we must pave the way for the development of an orderly, co-operative and co-ordinated pattern of vocational rehabilitation. With such a pattern, and assured of federal support, the provinces will be able to plan expansion of their programs with vigour and imagination, resulting in greatly increased federal financial participation.
In presenting the resolution to the house a few days ago, Mr. Speaker, I did not claim- I should like to make this perfectly clear- that this government had invented vocational rehabilitation nor, of course, do I lay any claim that it was invented by the previous administration. The whole concept and philosophy have developed gradually over a great many years. The principles were first practised in Canada on a large scale after the first world war. Some of our provincial workmens' compensation boards were quick to grasp the value and the common sense of this approach to the problem of the severely disabled. Our voluntary agencies were similarly inspired. Other progressive nations introduced constructive measures to develop comprehensive programs of vocational rehabilitation.
In spite of this, it was not until 1951 that a national conference was called on the subject here in Canada. It was not until 1953 that a limited degree of financial support was made available to the provinces to encourage the development of rehabilitation as a co-ordinated and co-operative effort. The steps taken at that time, I feel and I am sure everyone will agree, have been useful. They provided a basis for experiment. The experiment has resulted in a degree of success which has

confirmed our belief in the basic principles of vocational rehabilitation. However, in operation, weaknesses that required correction have been revealed.
At the eighth world congress on rehabilitation held last year in New York, a prominent Canadian made this statement to the representatives of 60 nations. I should like to quote his words:
I know of few fields In which the problems of organization and administration of a program are so complex and as baffling as they are in the field of rehabilitation.
In a program in which so many divisions and levels of government, so many professional disciplines, and so many voluntary groups are involved, the authority for the program must be clear as to its intent. The administrative framework must be as simple as is possible in a complicated situation. When we are dealing with the provinces in a proram designed to bring services to individuals, it is much easier for them to develop these programs against the background of a statute that is clear in its purpose.
At present, in recovering the federal share of the costs of supplying vocational rehabilitation services, the governments of the provinces must do so through two separate federal departments. Administration will obviously be simplified and made possible by this bill, that is Bill No. C-84. It will only be necessary for the provincial rehabilitation authority to make recovery through one federal department. The national advisory committee on the rehabilitation of disabled persons has repeatedly asked the government to consider the possibility of legislation in this field. I now have every reason to believe that this bill will be met with a great deal of satisfaction by all the provinces across Canada. It is for these reasons, Mr. Speaker, that in close cooperation with my colleague the Minister of National Health and Welfare (Mr. Monteith), this measure has been drawn up.
The basic purpose of this bill is to authorize the making of agreements with the provinces to provide for the sharing of costs incurred by the provinces in carrying out programs of vocational rehabilitation for disabled persons. The title of the bill is "The Vocational Rehabilitation of Disabled Persons Act". The definitions indicate the segment of the population that we seek to benefit and the types of services that may be necessary in a program of vacational rehabilitation.
To implement the provisions of the bill the minister will be authorized, with the approval of the governor in council, to enter into an agreement with any province for a period not exceeding six years. These federal-provincial agreements will provide for financial assistance for costs incurred by the prov-
Vocational Rehabilitation ince in implementing a comprehensive program for the rehabilitation of disabled persons. The agreement will set out how, and in what manner, various provisions of restoration, training and employment placement may be made available to the disabled. The principal services for which costs may be shared are outlined.
The vocational rehabilitation of the individual must be based upon adequate counselling and a proper assessment of his potentialities. Where full employment is not possible, economic gain can be sought by assisting the seriously disabled to dispense with institutional care or the services of an attendant. The desirability of training staff as counsellors or administrators is quite obvious. Such staff is essential to the proper co-ordination of services and bringing them to the disabled individual as required in an orderly, organized manner. Additional services that may be necessary may be included as required in individual cases. As an example, we could share the cost of tools without which employment could not be accepted.
The responsibility of co-ordinating federal services that relate to vocational rehabilitation is placed with the Minister of Labour in co-operation with the Minister of National Health and Welfare. The Department of National Health and Welfare, working with provincial health departments, is responsible for the development of all those services and facilities required to meet the health needs of our people. This responsibility includes the encouragement of the maximum use of all treatment measures conducive to complete cure or maximum recovery.
The health grants, and particularly the medical rehabilitation and crippled children grant, have stimulated the expansion of physical medicine and medical rehabilitation facilities in hospitals and rehabilitation centres. Equipment has been supplied, staff has been trained. These services speed up recovery and reduce the eventual degree of permanent disability. The creation of facilities and services, and the setting of standards in this area are, and must always be, the responsibility of our medical people.
Authority is given to the Minister of Labour to carry out research as it relates to vocational rehabilitation, where appropriate, in cooperation with any province.
The duties of the national advisory council on the rehabilitation of disabled persons are clearly set out. Its purpose basically is to give consideration to and advise the minister on all questions relating to the operation of the act. In addition to the federal and provincial representatives, the council will draw its ten

Vocational Rehabilitation remaining members from labour, management, the medical profession, the universities and the national voluntary agencies that work with the disabled.
To ensure that when purchasing medical services for individuals this is done in harmony with the developing pattern of health services, all regulations for this area will be recommended jointly by the Minister of Labour and the Minister of National Health and Welfare.
It can be seen, therefore, that the measure sets out specifically the responsibilities of the federal government in this important field. The resulting agreements will enable the provinces to indicate the services that they are willing to provide. This in turn should enable the provinces and the voluntary agencies to work out a co-ordinated approach in which the role of each in a total rehabilitation program is understood and defined.
This is not primarily a training program. Vocational training is an important part, but only one part, of vocational rehabilitation. Where training is given, it is based upon the abilities and desires of the individual and the opinion of the national employment service as to whether or not such training should lead to placement. The national employment service works closely with provincial rehabilitation offices, and I am proud of the fact that they have, in the past years, placed thousands of disabled persons in jobs that they are well able to perform.
It should be noted that under this vocational rehabilitation program, costs are not assumed for services that are generally available to all citizens under other programs. This is necessary to avoid overlapping. Where a voluntary agency can provide one of the necessary services, they assume this responsibility. The whole success, however, depends upon a well organized process through which the disabled can be guided to assume their rightful place in our economy.
Money is not actually spent on rehabilitation. It is invested, I submit, in order to provide a better future for our disabled citizens and the dividends that are returned in their greater happiness and their increased contribution to the economy more than offset the initial cost.
I am sure that all members of this house and of the entire nation will welcome this expression of our basic belief in the true principles of democracy and the provision, as far as possible, of equal opportunity for all.


William Hector McMillan: Mr. Speaker, this bill will put into statute form authorization for the government to enter into agreements with the provinces on a cost

sharing basis to co-ordinate all federal activities in the field of vocational rehabilitation. It will also provide for all co-operative work with the provinces in that field, including medical, surgical and remedial treatment as well as research in these fields. It will also provide for the setting up of an advisory council and authorize the payment of a chairman and other expenses.
As was said in the house the other day, there is nothing actually new in this bill except that henceforth payments in respect of helping the handicapped will be classed as statutory expenditures instead of a vote in the estimates. Every year when this vote in the estimates has come up for consideration in the committee, the minds of hon. members have been focused on the handicapped and they have had the opportunity to discuss the matter in debate and to bring their opinions to the attention of the government. I know that the minister said-and he repeated it today-that this is not something new; but when he brought this measure into the house at the resolution stage I think he left the impression that there was something in it when he used these words:
-it will bring new hope and encouragement to many of our less fortunate citizens.
I think we can see that those words are not, in fact, true for the fact is that our handicapped people will have available to them now nothing that they did not have available previously under the votes in the estimates.
I recall that back in 1954 when this measure was first introduced in the house, it and similar measures had no greater sponsor and advocate in the house than the hon. member for Essex East (Mr. Martin). At that time the hon. member was minister of national health and welfare. I have heard him sponsor this and similar measures in the house on various occasions. I say that no one in this house has been more active than he in sponsoring social security measures.
As the minister said, helping the handicapped started by a vote in this house in 1954. On the resolution stage of this bill the other day the minister gave some statistics. I think he said 5,266 seriously disabled people had been helped. They had over 3,000 dependents, and 80 per cent of them were without earnings.
Instead of being a charge to the taxpayers of Canada to the amount of $3.9 million a year, these people have been able to earn up to $9.6 million a year after rehabilitation. They have earned a total of $29 million since rehabilitation. I think this is evidence enough that this program was started at an earlier time under the former government.

Many people who are physically handicapped will receive the benefit of advances in medical science. Much has been done in the field of orthopaedic surgery. Much can be done to help those with defects in vision. Also, with the new braces and new artificial limbs I think these people can be helped a great deal more. Many of them have been helped a great deal so far.
The minister said this bill was being introduced in order to give assurance to the provinces that this program will be carried on. I did not think it was necessary for us to give any further assurance to the provinces than we have in the past. However, if anybody in the provinces needs any assurance, this is it.
Many advances are being made in medical science and we want to continue to help the physically handicapped. Therefore I think everybody in this house should vote for this bill.


Harold Edward Winch: Mr. Speaker, at the resolution stage the representative of this group expressed support for the principle of the bill it was proposed to introduce. We are naturally very pleased to now see the actual bill and therefore obtain a greater understanding of its purport, how far it will go and just what it is that the government has in mind. Undoubtedly the principle of the bill is good and its effects will be far-reaching.
As has been pointed out by the minister, in these days it is possible, with modern science and teaching, to recognize the great possibilities that exist for the rehabilitation of those persons who have become disabled.
Through the past operations of workmen's compensation boards in this country and the activities of the Canadian National Institute for the Blind, we have seen just what can be done in the rehabilitation of those who have become physically disabled. Because of that experience we very much welcome the introduction of this bill which will make statutory a policy of assisting the provinces to help the disabled throughout this country.
We fully understand that the particulars of the bill make it necessary for the initiative to be taken by the provinces and for agreements to be reached between the provinces and the federal government as to the scope of the rehabilitation measures.
We in this group sincerely hope that all provinces will take the fullest possible advantage of this legislation and that the federal council which is to be established, and the minister who has the responsibility, will have a broad vision as to the potentialities of the principle of rehabilitation.
I hope that during the course of the discussion on this bill the minister will outline,
Vocational Rehabilitation in perhaps more detail as we discuss the various clauses of the bill, what he considers to be some of the problems which have to be met and what he considers to be the breadth and scope of the bill.
The reason I mention this is because in days not so long past a person who had lost an arm, both arms, or a leg might not-and most certainly could not, I would say-be able to adapt himself for other occupations through vocational training because of the type of orthopaedic equipment which was available in those days.
However, in the past two or three years in particular very great advances have been made in the realm of artificial limbs. If one is injured, under the workmen's compensation provisions there is in most provinces not only the opportunity for vocational training in new occupations, but there is also the opportunity of acquiring the most modern and up to date artificial aids.
If a person is not covered by workmen's compensation and has been disabled in a non-industrial accident, I should like to be assured that if he is able to assimilate vocational training he will receive assistance under this bill. Is there provision in this bill for artificial limbs to be supplied which would enable such a person to take up a new occupation? The minister nods his head, and I gather that this assistance will be forthcoming. I am certainly glad this is so, because I think it is an important part of rehabilitation.
There is also this point, Mr. Speaker. A person who has undertaken vocational training is, under the workmen's compensation provisions, in receipt of assistance which will enable him to carry on vocational training and meet his costs of living.
I presume that those who will be covered by this bill will, to perhaps a considerable extent, be drawing welfare assistance. Welfare is basically just sufficient for a bare existence, to the shame of this country. But if one is to undertake vocational training, I think I can say from past experience that a little more than straight social welfare is required.
There, also, I should like to know whether there is provision in this bill to not only take care of the actual vocational training, but also the living expenses of a disabled person while undertaking that training.
After the training is completed there arises the question of placement. The minister has made it clear that he recognizes the importance of placement and that one of the purposes of the council will be to do everything possible to see that after vocational training these disabled citizens are placed in employment. That is as it should be. Perhaps we could hear at a later stage from the minister
4178	HOUSE OF
Vocational Rehabilitation just what emphasis will be placed on this matter and whether or not consideration will be given to some of the problems which have to be met and to the policies by which they might be overcome.
A number of industries have been doing an excellent job in the placement of disabled persons but I think it is unfortunate that to a considerable extent industry has not shown evidence of a concrete interest in this matter. I believe a major educational campaign must be waged in order to get a sympathetic acceptance by employers in this country of the value not only to themselves but to the Canadian economy and to the individuals concerned of employing a percentage of disabled persons who have received a good training. I know that in some countries in the world employment of disabled persons is governed by law. Employers who have a certain number of employees are bound to engage a percentage of disabled persons. However, I hope it will not be necessary to go to that point in Canada and that we can persuade industry to take in disabled persons from a spirit of citizenship and responsibility.
I should also like to throw out a suggestion which came to my attention recently. It is this. In some of the countries of Europe the placement of disabled persons who have been trained in certain occupations has not been left solely dependent upon possibilities of employment already in existence. The government itself takes a primary interest in the question and has established either government-owned or government-assisted concerns or small industries where only the disabled are employed. Thus there is not only a continual educational program going on to encourage private industry to take a percentage of trained disabled persons but the government itself has a direct concern in industries whose primary purpose is the employment of disabled persons. I have only been aware of this situation in recent times but I am given to understand that it has been a most successful policy and it is one which I commend for the consideration and,
I hope, the approval of the minister or of those who will have the responsibility of the administration of this measure.
As I said at the beginning of my remarks, this is in our opinion a most important bill. It represents a step forward. It represents a recognition of the responsibility of government and of all those who are not physically disabled to take an interest in the rehabilitation of those who are less fortunate. We commend the government on the introduction of this bill. We shall most certainly support it and perhaps when we are engaged in the


committee stage we shall have other words to say on the details of the measure as it proceeds.


Mr. Speaker:: Is the house ready for the question?


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: thought a member of the official opposition was about to rise. If that is the case I will resume my seat. I spoke on the resolution stage and I am going to be very brief now. When I rose I thought the hon. member for Niagara Falls (Miss LaMarsh) was going to rise, I noticed that when the hon. lady spoke about an hour ago she said that what she had to say was not very edifying. I am sure all hon. members will agree with me when I say that what the hon. lady has to say is always edifying, and sometimes, indeed, electrifying. That was why I was happy to see her, as I thought, about to rise, and perhaps she will do so before the conclusion of this debate.
I have a particular hobby as far as the rehabilitation of both human beings and nature is concerned. Conservation has been a hobby of mine during most of my life in these two aspects. On that account I am very pleased to see the introduction of this bill and glad to note that the expenditure for this very worth while purpose is to be on a statutory basis. Without doubt many persons who will receive training under the terms of this bill can be placed in employment as a result of that training but I am going to make reference to that smaller percentage who will find it very difficult to find employment because of certain unfortunate circumstances or the unfortunate nature of their disabilities. In some cases it is not possible to employ such people in the usual places of business or occupation. My experience in this respect and my knowledge of a number of cases throughout the years leads me to suggest we shall have to do more. Federal and provincial governments and other agencies will have to do more than simply provide for training according to the terms of this legislation. It is going to require the co-operation of all levels of government, private agencies and individuals to promote and finance, shall I say, what I consider specially organized activities in the light industrial field and in certain phases, shall I say, of light agricultural production.
As far as industry is concerned-and I have felt this for some time-we should have some method of getting together representatives of the federal government, the provincial governments, the agencies and the individuals interested to provide, say, in each constituency or suitable area some particular light industry where these unfortunate people

can be employed so as to earn their own living and have a sense of purpose in so doing. I suggest there are certain opportunities in light woodworking, the making of toys and in the making of special products from wood from waste from saw mills and other forest industries. At the present time certain industries require stocks of a certain size-small blocks of wood of a certain size; certain types of material for packaging and so on production of which could be undertaken in a light woodworking industry in which many of these unfortunate persons could be employed.
Then, as far as agriculture is concerned, I have felt there should be an opportunity for some form of state operated or co-operatively owned farm under, shall I say, state sponsorship providing opportunities for persons to engage in poultry farming and the production of vegetables and small fruits. I am speaking particularly of those persons who have to have guidance, persons who can perform simple operations and who find satisfaction in doing certain light work in association with people who care for them. In this connection I wish to bring the attention of the house to the tremendous opportunity there is in this country for the growing of black currants. That does not sound very important, but I remind hon. members that we import into Canada a very large amount of black currant jam and preserves in other forms. The demand for black currants is growing, particularly since people are becoming aware of the medicinal properties and value of black currants.
I see some hon. members smile, but there is an opportunity in this respect. We are now importing from European countries and the United States a great many of these products. I mention this as one feature of the fruitgrowing industry that could be developed under perhaps co-operative farms of the nature I indicated.
There are other opportunities which exist in this field. In the district which I represent there are thousands of acres of blueberries which go to waste every year. They are beautiful blueberries. Possibly this situation exists in other members' constituencies. There are acres of huckleberries going to waste as well. Years ago these blueberries and huckleberries were picked and shipped in carloads. Families were able to make on the average $10 a day-father, mother and child. It is almost impossible today to get people to do this sort of thing. They will pick only their own requirement and will not undertake this work in a commercial way.
Several small communities in my constituency used to ship an average of seven carloads of these blueberries to the Calgary
Vocational Rehabilitation market each year. On the present market they are worth 30 cents a pound in Calgary and other prairie points. At 16 cents per pound a person can earn a fair wage. They cost 5 cents per pound to package and transport to Calgary.
One can see the opportunity that exists here which could be developed by individuals who are interested in doing something to assist these unfortunate people. I am not suggesting this could be done overnight. It would require improved and extended legislation as well as co-operation among federal and provincial governments, private agencies and individuals. However, I do rise to make the suggestion that this is one approach to the problem faced by the more unfortunate with whom we are concerned at the present time. It is a suggestion that should be given further study in an effort to see what can be done on a co-operative basis to assist that percentage of unemployed individuals today who will never be placed in normal or usual employment.


Julia Verlyn (Judy) LaMarsh: Mr. Speaker, 1 wish to thank the hon. member for Kootenay West (Mr. Herridge) for his remarks. He is one of those hon. members who has made me welcome in this house. I am very grateful to him in this regard.
There are certain items in the bill which the minister has proposed with which I do not agree. One of these is that the definition indicates that this legislation is to be available only to those persons who are incapable of pursuing regularly any substantially gainful occupation. The employment placement which is referred to again is such only the objective of which is to enable those persons of becoming capable of pursuing regularly any substantially gainful occupation. It is a fact that there are many individuals in this country who are disabled from disease. They may not have lost a limb, their sight or hearing but they are disabled to the extent that they are, while capable of taking training, many at their own expense, through the ordinary system of schooling in the various provinces, because of their disability-I am thinking particularly of the local individuals in my riding-unacceptable to industry. Many of these individuals have acquired clerical training and therefore do not fall within the definition of this measure because they are capable of pursuing regularly any substantially gainful employment, but nevertheless are unable to find jobs.
This is a situation which has not arisen as a result of economic conditions of the last one or two years but has existed for many

Vocational Rehabilitation years. These individuals are incapable of obtaining employment largely because of the reaction of employers and employees who are uncomfortable in the presence of these people notwithstanding the fact that they are capable of doing a job. Too many employers, and this group unhappily includes the Ontario hydro and arms of the provincial and federal governments, will not employ an individual who is disabled, although capable of doing a job and having a livelihood, because of the fact that they are in a position where they will be seen by the public, and the companies feel this is not good for public relations.
It is a most unhappy situation for those who have used their own resources to acquire training when they find they are not only unable to secure a job with private employers but on many occasions because of pension and insurance provisions-they are incapable of being insured-they are unable to find employment even with arms of the governments. I would ask the minister to consider this definition carefully, before he brings the bill before the house, as to whether it would be of benefit to widen the definition to include those individuals who are trained and capable of holding jobs but because of their appearance, resulting from an impairment, are unacceptable in employment. This problem does not involve training or re-training but is a matter of placing the individuals.
I have reference to a particular individual who has been unemployed for upwards of ten years. I employed him myself so long as I had a position open for him but before and since that time he has been to every arm of government in and out of Ontario in an effort to secure employment but has been unsuccessful because employers are afraid that his would-be fellow employees would object to his appearance.
The individuals to whom I refer should not be thrown on a garbage heap. These individuals are capable of making a contribution to our society and require the assistance of employers in placing them in positions which they are capable of handling. I would therefore ask the minister not to disregard the problems of those individuals who are trained and capable of doing jobs by excluding them under the plan of Bill No. C-84.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: I must inform the house that if the minister speaks now he will close the debate.


Michael Starr: Mr. Speaker, may I call it six o'clock.
At six o'clock the house took recess.



COMMONS AFTER RECESS

[Stage Direction]
The house resumed at 7.30 p.m.
Michael Starr: Mr. Speaker, I was very pleased indeed to hear the remarks of hon. members who took part in the debate on second reading of the bill in that they showed so much interest in this matter and, if I may say so, sincere interest. I feel that I have covered the scope of the bill at the resolution stage and also in moving the motion for second reading. However, a number of questions have been posed by various members who have participated in the debate.
The hon. member for Vancouver East (Mr. Winch) brought up the problem of the provision of artificial limbs and so on for disabled persons. There is provision for prosthetic appliances as part of the restoration process and it includes limbs and all such things that are necessary. With respect to the matter of living allowance during the period of training, living allowances, proposed by the provinces and approved by the federal government are payable to these people during the period of training.
I wish to say to the hon. member for Kootenay West (Mr. Herridge) that I appreciate his keen interest in this matter. He is a man of kindly heart and amiable disposition and I know that the human aspect of this matter is very close to him. The collaboration of all agencies and people is essential, of course, in this matter, including the voluntary agencies, the provinces, the federal government, the national employment service and individuals. I might say to him that the question of sheltered employment to aid in the rehabilitation of workers is receiving close study. We are always on the lookout for opportunities for the disabled in a rural setting and we have in mind such means as he mentioned. However, this is an area where more research is probably needed and we are going to do everything we can in this respect.
The hon. member for Niagara Falls (Miss LaMarsh) referred to a particular case that had come to her attention and in which she was interested. I might say that we feel that the combination of training and counselling has a great deal to do in the placement of this type of person. In the approximately 200 national employment service offices across the country we now have some 230 special placement officers who do nothing else. They are properly trained for this work and they are engaged in counselling and endeavouring to place such people in suitable employment. They are in constant touch with possible employers and with those who are seeking employment. They are available to

these people and are more than happy to be of service to them. They too are interested in the problems of the disabled in the same way that we are, and it gives one a great glow of satisfaction to know that they have been able to help so many people who are disabled.
I have nothing further to add except to say that we hope that by having the bill passed we will be able to assure the continuation of this type of work and federal financial participation will thus be assured in the minds of the provinces.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Flynn in the chair.
Clauses 1 and 2 agreed to.
On clause 3-Agreement authorized.
William Hector McMillan: Mr. Chairman, subclause 3 of clause 3 reads as follows:
In this section, "costs" incurred by a province means the costs incurred by the province determined as prescribed in the agreement-
I was wondering, since in a number of these cases rehabilitation might require long hospitalization, whether or not the agreement here would apply to the costs assumed by the provinces in this connection or whether the federal government assumed that they would be paying their half under the hospital insurance scheme?


Michael Starr: Yes, we pay our half under the hospital insurance.


William Hector McMillan: You would not be paying any more under this act?


Michael Starr: Not for straight hospitalization.


William Hector McMillan: In a number of these cases there is no hospital insurance. I know that happens in Ontario and the municipalities have to put up a considerable amount of money to cover the hospitalization of these people. Would the federal government be assuming any portion of that cost?


Michael Starr: No, Mr. Chairman.


William Hector McMillan: In other words, the federal government is not assuming 50 per cent of the cost of the scheme?


Michael Starr: Yes, we are, but the hon. member is talking about something else altogether.


William Hector McMillan: People who are handicapped sometimes have to be hospitalized to receive orthopaedic surgery.


Michael Starr: This bill, Mr. Chairman, is primarily designed to take care of rehabilitation of the disabled. It is not for hospitalization. If in the particular instance the hon. member mentions, the surgery were part of 90205-6-264
Vocational Rehabilitation the rehabilitation of the person, then we would assume 50 per cent of the cost. However, if the disabled person entered a hospital because of illness and not as part of a program for rehabilitation, then that does not come within the scope of our arrangements with the provinces.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Clause 3, paragraph (1), Mr. Chairman, reads:
The minister may, with the approval of the governor in council, enter into an agreement with any province, for a period not exceeding six years, to provide for the payment by Canada to the provinces-
Are these agreements with the provinces for varying periods of years as between one province and another?


Michael Starr: Up until now the agreements have run for a period of five years. It is proposed under this bill to authorize the federal government to enter into agreements with the provinces for a period of six years.


Harold Edward Winch: I should like to ask the minister if he knows of any of the provinces which have compensation acts under which the provinces do not supply vocational training? Are there any such provinces? I believe there are.


Michael Starr: I am told that the provinces do not supply it, but they do have the power to pay for it.


Harold Edward Winch: That is the reason I was asking. I could not say with certainty, but I thought there were some provinces that did not supply vocational training to those who were entitled to benefits of workmen's compensation.
The reason this fact came to my mind was that this clause says the provisions of the bill do not apply to any disabled person whose disability is the result of any injury in respect of which benefits are payable to him under any workman's compensation law. There may be benefits which are payable because of a permanent or partial disability but there are not disability benefits. If there are compensation laws in which there are not disability benefits so far as vocational training is concerned, then this means that the people of that province, because of the dereliction of the government of that province, cannot come under this act.


Michael Starr: Yes, the hon. member is correct, Mr. Chairman, in that respect. However, I feel it is the responsibility of the province to undertake such a program under their workmen's compensation measure. Even though the province may not have such a program we, as a federal government, would be prepared to counsel individuals in respect of this

Vocational Rehabilitation matter. 1 think the provinces should undertake such training of disabled persons, particularly under workmen's compensation acts, under which they are being trained and rehabilitated in most provinces.


William Hector McMillan: Is the government assuming one half of the cost of rehabilitating persons handicapped by mental illness? The definition clause says that a disabled person means a person who, because of physical or mental impairment, is incapable of pursuing regularly any substantially gainful occupation.
I have referred before to the fact that people might be confined to hospital for prolonged periods as a result of a disability which could be corrected by orthopaedic surgery. According to clause 2 of this bill, mental impairment should apply also. I should like to know the differentiation the minister is trying to make.


Michael Starr: Here again, Mr. Chairman, mental illness comes under provincial jurisdiction. However, if a person who has undergone treatment for mental illness is restored, then we will participate in his rehabilitation.


Mr. McFarlane:: I should like to ask the minister if the construction of buildings and the supplying of equipment will be the subject of a 50 per cent donation from the federal government?


Michael Starr: This bill does not take care of that. That is handled through the health grants and other means available.


Murray Lincoln McFarlane: As I understand it, then, the maintenance of buildings would be handled through the same branch?


Michael Starr: Under this measure we would not participate in those costs. We are only concerned with the actual training and rehabilitation process.


Murray Lincoln McFarlane: The way I see the picture at the moment, then, if I may just ask another question, is that the province makes a decision as to where this work is to be performed and we accept it, in principle?


Michael Starr: Yes.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I should like to ask the minister this rather intricate question. Here is a case of a veteran who suffers a war disability as a result of overseas service. He has a stiff leg. He is in a car accident and the rest of the passengers are able to jump out and save themselves, but because of his stiff leg this man is not able to jump out and, as a civilian, suffers a disability. Who would be responsible for retraining?


Michael Starr: We could accept that case under this program under those circumstances.

(Translation):


Mr. Deschaleleis:: Mr. Chairman, I only want to say a few words about clause 3. I note that under this clause:
-the minister may enter into an agreement with any province, for a period not exceeding six years, to provide for the payment by Canada to the province of contributions in respect of the costs incurred by the province in undertaking in the province a comprehensive program for the vocational rehabilitation of disabled persons.
This is a joint federal-provincial program. May I point out at this stage that I would have liked very much to hear what our Conservative friends of the province of Quebec had to say about this, because opinions are divided in the province of Quebec regarding those joint programs. There is already-


Jacques Flynn: Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member. We are now on a clause of the bill, and the hon. member is discussing the principle of the bill despite the fact that we have had second reading.


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Mr. Chairman, clause 3 refers to a joint plan, obviously because it empowers the minister to enter into an agreement with a province. I say that this joint plan we are now considering is not viewed favourably by all political groups in the province of Quebec, because there are those who consider such joint plans as encroachments on the autonomy of the province of Quebec. As a matter of fact, here is what Mr. Talbot had to say in this connection as reported in Le Soleil for April 20, 1961:
We cannot at the same time live on the central power and recover our heritage. We have to make a choice-


Jacques Flynn: Order, order. I have indicated to the hon. member that his remarks concern the principle of the bill whereas we are now considering the bill clause by clause. Those comments cannot be related to the phraseology of clause 3, so I think they are out of order in view of the rule governing consideration of the various clauses of a bill.


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Mr. Chairman, I shall abide by your decision. However, in view of the fact that we are now considering clause 3 which, I think, is the key provision in this bill, I wanted to give my hon. friends from the province of Quebec an opportunity to vote either for or against the bill. I would therefore ask you, Mr. Chairman, to call for the yeas and the nays, in order to find out where our hon. friends stand on a joint federal-provincial scheme.
(Text):


Jacques Flynn: Shall clause 3 carry?
Clause agreed to: Yeas, 53; nays, nil.
Clauses 4 and 5 agreed to.

On clause 6-Research program.


William Hector McMillan: How are these research programs to be carried on? Are grants to be made to universities for certain aspects of this program?


Michael Starr: Through the provinces. We will approve any projects submitted by the provinces.


[Stage Direction]
Clause agreed to.
Clauses 7 to 13 inclusive agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.


Gordon Minto Churchill: the second reading of Bill No. C-77, to provide for the rehabilitation of agricultural lands and the development of rural areas in Canada.


Mr. W. H. Jorgenson (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Agriculture):: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the minister this evening who, as I am sure the house knows, is away on a mission that is of importance to everyone in Canada, I take pleasure in making a few remarks on the motion for second reading of this bill to provide for the rehabilitation of agricultural lands and the development of rural areas in Canada.
At the resolution stage the minister outlined the broad philosophy which this bill is intended to convey. He stated that the main purpose is the improvement of the economic position of those farmers whose lands are at present classified as marginal or submarginal. However, it has not only the intention of improving the economic status of a great number of farmers who live in these economic units; it will also have the effect of simultaneously improving the position of farmers possessing more economic units. The bill itself fits into the broad philosophy of this government in respect of agricultural policy.
The subjects of bills that have been introduced into this House of Commons and have been passed as legislation include the following: a program of price stabilization to alleviate the effects of the fluctuation of prices owing to economic conditions beyond the farmers' control; the introduction of a crop insurance program designed to minimize the effect of fluctuation in yields caused by weather conditions beyond the farmers' control; the implementation of a comprehensive 90205-6-264J
Marginal Lands Development farm credit program to assist farmers in developing more economic units and to provide farmers with the opportunity of developing their operations to the point where they can effectively carry on in the face of changing economic conditions in the world today. This program fits into that broad general picture.
There are three attitudes that a government can take towards agriculture in the country as a whole. It could do nothing and could allow the agricultural economy to develop of its own accord. As I think most hon. members would agree, you would get the results that you should expect from that type of policy.
The second attitude is that you could leave nothing to the farmer; you could direct him completely in the production, marketing and selling of his products. We prefer not to take this attitude because we firmly believe that farmers in this country are not only capable but desirous of carrying on their own farming operations and making their own decisions on the farm.
We prefer to adopt the attitude that governments can provide an environment whereby people can take advantage of their own native abilities, initiatives and desires, and by providing that environment they can achieve for themselves that position which it is necessary for them to maintain if they are to keep pace with the other forces in our economy.
There are several approaches to this problem. The bill outlines in three separate phases the intention of the government. First of all there are the projects for the alternative uses of land.
The minister has on several occasions indicated what he has in mind in this respect. He has outlined that many areas of Canada which are presently being used for agricultural purposes could be put to better use for the production of trees or as reforestation projects.
A number of these projects have already been put into effect under the Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Act and the Maritime Marshland Rehabilitation Act. These are designed to bring into effect the proper utilization of our land resources.
There are several other aspects of land utilization programs that I could cite. One in particular that comes to my mind at this time is the program dealing with wildlife conservation. This is a program that has often been discussed but in respect of which very little action has been taken.
It is perhaps a sad commentary on our system that in the past we have found that too often municipal programs, provincial programs and even individual programs are in conflict with national programs. I think it

Marginal Lands Development is fair to say that under the rural development program the intention will be to coordinate the efforts of not only provincial and federal governments but those of municipal and private organizations also, even down to individual farmers, in the proper utilization .and conservation of our land resources.
The definition of the word "agriculture" has often taken many meanings. The dictionary itself uses many ways of describing it. However, in my opinion the definition that most appropriately describes agriculture is not contained in the dictionary but comes from some experience and knowledge in the practical application of farming methods.
In many respects agriculture seems to be regarded by the non-farmer as a very complicated business. Perhaps this is because we are living in an age where complications are worshipped. I prefer to think of agriculture as a technique whereby you continue to produce food from the land for as long as food is needed, but you will only continue to do that if what you take out of the land is replaced.
Here again the bill does provide for proper conservation methods and, in addition to this, the development of rural projects designed to complement the existing agricultural potential of a given area.
There are many ways in which projects can be carried out under the terms of this bill. Perhaps it might be appropriate, since I am from the province of Manitoba, to outline at this point what this particular province has done in attempting to prepare themselves to co-operate with the federal government in the development of their own resources.
First of all, starting shortly after the present government assumed office, they began to conduct a land classification survey-the only one in existence in Canada-to determine the agricultural potential of each area.
Following this they have carried out several economic surveys to determine what the industrial potential, in conjunction with the agricultural potential, of a given area will be. Several of these surveys have been completed and others are currently under way.
In the economic survey areas the province has set up what they call community development corporations, composed of individuals, businessmen, bankers, farmers and whoever may be interested, to decide upon projects that might be complementary to the existing economy of that particular area.
After having decided what projects will be best suited to their particular area, these development corporations will then apply to the provincial government, through the Manitoba development fund, to assist them in carrying out the projects they have in mind.

Provided that these projects are complementary to the plans for that area, they can receive financial assistance to carry on these projects.
As I mentioned earlier, several of the projects have been completed. I should like to quote briefly from part of the report on the economic survey of south central Manitoba, by Ebasco Services Incorporated, of October, 1960. On page 75 of the report, under the heading "Guidance for Development", the third paragraph reads:
In any such plan all levels of government-
They are speaking here of plans for rural development:
-will be involved and voluntary organizations such as chambers of commerce, agricultural societies, and community development corporations must lend their assistance to a co-ordinated program.
This is a point which I made earlier, and I think it is one that is significant because it appears repeatedly throughout this report. On page 76 under the title "Land Use and Economic Planning", this is what they have to say:
Land use planning should be applied to the entire area of projected community growth of all urban centres to ensure the welfare of local citizens, the protection of commerce and industry through the prevention of improper land uses, the provision of adequate space for schools, hospitals, parks, playgrounds and industrial locations, and development of aesthetically pleasing street patterns and residential areas. It should be noted that security of investment in housing, commercial establishments and industrial plants can only be achieved if firm zoning and land use restrictions are applied consistently. At the present time new industries prefer to locate in centres with adequate land use planning. In future this preference may be expected to reach a point where location of new industries may be contingent upon such measures.
I think this indicates clearly the necessity of the implementation of this measure to assist communities and provinces in the proper utilization of their land resources. It is also interesting to note in the report of the delegation of the Canadian Department of Agriculture dated February, 1960, presented by request to the special committee of the Senate on land use in Canada, some of the observations of that body. At page 56 of the report, the following recommendations appear:
Team effort of local people.-One of the basic tenets of the rural development program is the belief that local people can do things to help themselves if they are provided with motivation, leadership and financial aid.
As I outlined earlier, this is the philosophy which this government has adopted with respect to the development of our rural areas. We do not believe we should provide complete direction. I shall read the paragraph which occurs a little later on in this report and which corroborates this attitude.

This has been accomplished through the mobilization of local citizen groups under the guidance of the federal-state extension service and many community minded leaders. It was of interest to the delegation to learn about the large number and varied kinds of projects that local leaders and committees had put into operation and were considering for future action.
Later on they say:
The fact that the members of the local committees have a personal interest in bringing about improvements in the economic and social structure of the area is the real key to success.
This underlines the point I made earlier with regard to the Manitoba program where the initiative and the direction of community development programs takes place at the local level. Once they have decided upon a course of action they can request assistance from provincial and federal governments in carrying out the program.
In the fourth paragraph it is stated:
The real problem is to stimulate imaginative and critical thinking on the part of the local people so they are able to see the potentials and opportunities and the need for action .. . This is a town-country approach, and sectional interests are lost in the common good.
Some indication of the need for focusing on local effort in the development and direction of projects was noted by the delegation in at least two different states.
This observation is very important:
Where the line of direction was from the federal or state authority down to the local level, projects failed because of lack of local interest and support. The delegation found a strong feeling that the organization and direction should remain in the hands of local people but the stimulus and motivation, especially in the early states, should come from state and federal bodies through the co-operative extension service.
I think this clearly underlines the intention of the bill which is now before the house and certainly it is an indication that in many respects we can follow the experience that our neighbours to the south have gathered in the course of their rural development programs.
Perhaps it would not be amiss if I read here tonight from a statement which appeared in the Canadian Federation of Agriculture news and information bulletin of January, 1961. It gives a fairly clear indication of what type of rural development program could be organized in an area which is in need of some reorganization. This item appears on page 2 of this bulletin and it is entitled: "A Rural Development Project in Quebec". It says:
In recent speeches, agriculture minister Hamilton has made the point that in the future many farmers would be wise to develop alternative sources of income to supplement their returns from conventional sources. He has mentioned pulp-wood as one of these alternative sources. There are no doubt others that come to mind and many have been developed in the United States under their expanding rural development program. The MacDonald Farm Journal, the monthly publication
Marginal Lands Development of MacDonald college, McGill university, edited by Leslie G. Young, the secretary of the Quebec Farmers' Association, carries a very interesting story in its December issue, which spells out how one farm family sought out an alternative source of income that has grown into a community project.
This story is set in the Sutton mountains, at the town of Sutton, 63 miles from Montreal.
I am sure the hon. member for Brome-Missisquoi (Mr. Grafftey) will be interested in this.
There are many mountains and hills in that area, and some of the farms are of a marginal type. One young farmer, Real Boulanger, a confirmed skier, decided that the community had real potential as a skiing resort. He and his family and friends organized Mount Sutton, Inc. in February of 1960, and purchased 2,300 acres of land on the north side of Mount Sutton, the highest peak within 100 miles of Montreal. Then came the development of a first-class ski resort. Experts were brought in to lay out the trails, and all summer long workers have been busy installing a double chair lift, a T-bar and building a chalet. A new road was built and parking for 2,000 cars was provided in time for the opening at mid-December. Jean Lessard, one of Canada's 1960 Olympic skiers, has agreed to provide skiing lessons. What has it meant to the community? Sutton is a rural community, and most of the local businesses were dependent upon the farm trade. The resort has brought new business. Twenty five people have been employed on the project, and it will provide full-time employment for from 15 to 20 people all winter. It is expected that the ski run will take from $60,000 to $70,000 the first winter, and that the total revenue in the community will be between $250,000 and $300,000. Real estate prices have soared, and many people have come out from the city to buy lots for country homes. The town has several new shops and stores, and there is a boom in the room and lodging business. Some 150 people in the town have listed rooms for skiers. The mayor of Sutton is most enthusiastic, and the Brome Country Farmers' Association has taken the initiative in seeking zoning bylaws to prevent the construction of substandard tourist accommodation.
This is just one example of rural development carried on through the initiative of a group of local people. It is not too difficult to imagine how many more projects somewhat similar in type could be carried on throughout Canada if some assistance in planning and financing could be given through provincial and federal governments. As I have already indicated, my own province of Manitoba is a province which is very active in laying the foundations for a development program to complement the existing economy, providing alternative uses of land, and thereby providing employment opportunities for people who are presently flocking to the cities, swelling our unemployment ranks.
It does seem to me that the intention of this bill is to create many new opportunities for farmers throughout Canada and, most important of all, to provide for the continuation of the land resources of this country so that future generations will have the opportunity

Marginal Lands Development or making their living from the soil and providing food for the nation and, indeed, for the countries of the world for as long as food is needed.
I am sure that the minister would have made a far more extensive statement at this time than I have, and I trust that when he returns he will have the opportunity of commenting further and elaborating on some of the points I have made. Knowing of his enthusiasm for the contents of this bill, and with knowledge of the energy he has applied in bringing into effect the many programs which we felt are not only desirable but necessary for the continuation of our land resources, I am sure that hon. members of this house will support this bill. I have taken a great deal of pleasure in having had the opportunity of saying a few words at this particular stage of the bill.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I think it a matter of regret to many hon. members, certainly to some of us on this side of the house, that a situation has arisen this evening which I do not think, with proper management of the affairs of this house, should have arisen, in that the committee of agriculture is sitting at the same time as this important measure is being debated, and I agree with the parliamentary assistant, that it is an important measure. This is another illustration of the handicaps under which we are operating at the present time.
Mr. Pallet!: How many members of the hon. member's party are in attendance at that committee, can he say?


John Whitney Pickersgill: I do not intend to transgress the rules of this house even though tempted to do so by the hon. member for Peel (Mr. Pallett). I do say if the hon. member for Peel were doing his duty as chief whip that committee would not be sitting at the time this debate is going on.


Mr. Pallett:: There is not a Liberal member down here.


Mr.   Mc@: That is not a correct statement and you should not put falsehoods like that on the record.


John Cameron Pallett: I am sorry, there is one.


Mr.   Mc@: That is not a fact.


John Cameron Pallett: You had better go and count them.


Jean-Thomas Richard: You had better start counting the members of your party at that committee.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The discussion so far has been irrelevant.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I will not challenge your ruling, sir, although it does seem to me that the incapacity of hon. members to take part in a debate on a particular measure of this kind and at the same time to take part in the deliberations of an important committee of the house is relevant. Perhaps more hon. members from this side of the house would be in the house participating in this debate were that committee not sitting, or would be in attendance at that committee if this debate were not going on. However, I do not intend to pursue this line further.
I do feel that we are perhaps fortunate, having in mind the desire of the Prime Minister (Mr. Diefenbaker) to finish the session by the end of June, in that the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Hamilton) is not here, and that the parliamentary assistant, who is somewhat more modest, should have introduced the bill instead because, as he said himself, his speech was a great deal shorter, although I am not sure its content was substantially less on that account. Perhaps the hon. gentleman does not have the same capacity for verbal inflation that the Minister of Agriculture possesses.


An hon. Member:: Listen to who is talking about inflation.


John Whitney Pickersgill: It may seem rather surprising to some hon. members, although it will not to the hon. member for Provencher (Mr. Jorgenson) that I should be speaking on this particular measure. As the hon. member for Provencher no doubt knows at second hand, because he is too young to know at first hand, my father homesteaded in the bush of northern Manitoba when I was six years old.


Warner Herbert Jorgenson: In one of the areas that will benefit most by this bill.


John Whitney Pickersgill: No, in one of the areas that will not need to benefit by this bill because in that area around the village of Ashern, notwithstanding the fact that the land and climate there are not as good, as in many other parts of Manitoba, there has been a great deal of skill used over the years in developing crops, particularly specialty crops, such as certain kinds of seed, as the hon. member knows, which has made that particular community-I attended last year the fiftieth anniversary of the establishment of that settlement where I went 49 years ago -one of the more prosperous areas in that part of Manitoba, although it is not favoured with the best soil and conditions such as the Portage Plains and some other favoured parts of Manitoba. I think that is a very good illustration of what can be done if there exists good community spirit as has existed in that

place throughout the whole of its history. I can speak from detailed personal knowledge because its history only began the year before I went there.
Anyone who can recall, as I can, the wave of homesteading that took place in 191011-12, and the number of people who went up there after filing at the dominion land office in Winnipeg on a quarter section never having seen the place, who spent every cent they had and ran into considerable debt, and got heaps of rocks that could never possibly be made into farms, will realize that this is not an ideal way to settle and develop a farming community. If we had had the foresight, and I am not criticizing anyone in saying this, to see what some of these problems were at that time, we would have had much less need for legislation of this kind and other legislation that has been passed over the years.
I also remember very well the period immediately after the first world war when the soldiers' settlement board was being used as a device for getting the troops out of sight as quickly as possible when the war was over. My father was in the lumber business for the short while he lived after the war and I had a good deal to do with that business at that time and, as a consequence, was in a position to realize the debts that were run up but that never were repaid because the settlers could not possibly do so. I remember the over-capitalization with respect to land that ought never to have been settled, though some of it could have been used as part of larger holdings with some advantage, in the way that it is gradually coming to be used now.
Just as in our industrial development we have developed slums because of a lack of foresight and allowing nature to take its course rather too much, so too in the rural development of Canada there is no doubt that we have something analogous in far too many parts of the country.
Then, of course, in the thirties we had the terrible disaster of the dry weather which was so ruinous to so many people who had really established themselves very well and considered that they had permanent economic security. We had to take another hard and painful look at the whole problem of use of land in the prairies of western Canada. I think that anybody who has had the privilege that I assume most hon. members have had, and which I had once again at Easter time, of driving through and flying over great areas of the southern prairies will feel that in the 25 years since the period of the great droughts we have done a great deal collectively, through the federal government and through the operations of provincial governments whatever their political character,
Marginal Lands Development to rehabilitate the prairie land so as to make more effective use of it and to provide a measure of security not against drought, because we cannot have real security against drought, but against the worst effects of drought.
I think that we in this country can take a great deal of satisfaction out of the operations of the prairie farm rehabilitation legislation in the 25 or 26 years it has been in effect. I take it that it is mainly on the experience of the prairie farm rehabilitation administration that the present legislation is based.
I am very happy to have the opportunity to recall to the minds of some hon. members who were not here at the time that the former prime minister, Mr. St. Laurent, from the time he was counsel to the royal commission on federal-provincial relations, the so-called Rowell-Sirois commission, was very much impressed by and interested in the work that was being done on the prairies through federal soil surveys, P.F.R.A. and in other ways to conserve the soil and make the best use of it. It was largely through Mr. St. Laurent's own initiative that the ladies and gentlemen of the other place undertook the study of land use which has been drawn upon so heavily by the present Minister of Agriculture in the preparation of this legislation.
There is no doubt whatever, sir, that the extension, expansion and development of this work is an urgent problem. When all is said and done, no matter how great our industrial development, agriculture will always, at least in the foreseeable future, remain one of the main industries of this country. My own suspicion is that the economic importance of agriculture relatively, though perhaps not the proportion of our manpower engaged in it, will grow and not diminish in the next generation. I admit that is based, of course, on one very tall assumption, the assumption that we are not going to have a catastrophic world war.
But if we assume we are not it seems inevitable that the population of the world will go on growing. There is no doubt that North American agriculture is in the main so much more efficient than agriculture in any other part of the world. I am watching the hon. member for Kootenay West (Mr. Herridge) shaking his head, but I think he will find, having regard to the number of persons engaged in North American agriculture, that production on the whole is very much greater than anywhere else in the world. It may be that in other places more intensive methods are used, but there is no place where the application of capital and of modern methods and techniques has transformed an industry more than it has transformed agriculture in
4188	HOUSE OF
Marginal Lands Development the memory of everyone in this house. When you go out to the prairies today and see the number of people required to grow much bigger crops of wheat than were ever grown in the days of the horses when the farmers had to grow fuel for the horses in the form of oats, when you see the number of people that can produce what we are producing today and realize that the only part of the world where there are great agricultural surpluses is in North America, I think that the accuracy of my general proposition would be very hard to challenge successfully.
There is another very good illustration, of course. We can produce wheat in this country and sell it in the markets of the world but unfortunately we have not yet been able to produce many fully manufactured articles that we can sell competitively in the markets of the world. In other words, generally speaking our agriculture is more efficient in world terms than our manufacturing industries are.
At the same time we have far too large a proportion of our population engaged in agriculture that is not economic in any sense of the term, in agriculture that is very close to being subsistence agriculture. I do not think we have any genuine subsistence agriculture in Canada. I do not think in a country as far north as we are it would be possible to have real subsistence agriculture, but we come very close to it in far too many areas of this country. Far too many people are devoting far too much energy to a little patch of land without having the best kind of machinery, without the best kind of methods, without the best kind of knowledge, and as a result they are getting a very meagre living.
These is no doubt that from a long term standpoint legislation of this kind, properly administered and wisely and scientifically planned, can do a very great deal of good. I think that any step forward in this direction should be applauded by every hon. member on both sides of the house. But I think there are one or two cautionary words that also ought to be said. This legislation is not going to contribute in any way at all to the solution of any of our immediate problems. Indeed, it may do the reverse unless we are very careful because, at the present time, it would be a very grave error indeed to take anyone off a subsistence farm in order to consolidate holdings and make someone else's farm more efficient and put the person removed from his farm in the slums in one of our cities on relief. That would not be an advantage. That would be a disadvantage. That would be a backward and not a forward step.


Now, I do not want to be misunderstood. I am not suggesting for one minute the government has any such intention. I do not believe it has. But I do say that we must remember you cannot consolidate these uneconomic small holdings, you cannot remove every second farm family, without having some place for these others to go. While there is a lot to be said for seeking to decentralize industry for the sake of getting small industries into rural communities where they will provide alternative occupations at certain seasons of the year, where they will provide supplementary income and so on, we ought to remember that even more urgent than getting industry into these rural areas, at any rate while the people still have farms and are still making some sort of living, is to get some industries into the coal mining areas. There are a lot of people in those areas who will not have any way of making a living at all. We have not done much of a job in that direction.
There is only one situation in which legislation of this sort can work, and that is in a dynamic, growing society. We cannot have rural rehabilitation with three quarters of a million unemployed at the same time. This is a basic fact that we have to keep in mind. It is a good thing to plan. It is a good thing to get ready so that when we do get out of the economic doldrums, when we do start on the upturn again and when there are alternative opportunities, we will be ready to take advantage of them. These are all very good things but I do hope the Minister of Agriculture who is sometimes, I believe, more blinded by his own vision than is anyone else, will not go about as the Prime Minister did on a recent television show and talk about this measure as something that is going to be the immediate economic salvation of the country. It is not. This is not to condemn it at all, but it will have no immediate effect whatever. It cannot have and, what is more, it should not have because it is going to require a lot of hard thinking and hard planning unless it is going to go on the rocks as a result of bad management or bad organization.
We have had enough of these rural schemes in our past history to be aware of the many mistakes that can be made. There has been one conspicuously successful effort at rural settlement when we did profit from previous experience, as I think everyone would agree. I refer to the administration of the Veterans' Land Act after the second world war. This required a lot of planning, a lot of careful, detailed organization in order to keep the mistakes to a minimum. I hope that in carrying out this legislation, which I am sure will meet with good will from all quarters of the

house, it will be remembered that progress forward relatively slowly will be better than one leap forward and two leaps backward. I suggest that that kind of caution is necessary in commending this legislation.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Speaker, I have listened to the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate (Mr. Pickersgill) as a minister of the crown. I have listened to him as a representative of the fishermen. I have talked to him as an historian. I know that he is also a coming gentleman of the legal profession.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Oh, no.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: But never before have 1 heard the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate speak as a rural philosopher and agricultural expert. I enjoyed his remarks this evening. However, before proceeding, I do want to suggest that when he saw me shaking my head as he mentioned that the most efficient farming in the world was in Canada-


John Whitney Pickersgill: In North America.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I understood him to say in the world.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I think perhaps before the confusion grows I might just repeat what I said. I said I thought that, everything taken into account, North American farming was the most efficient in the world.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Oh, but I cannot agree with that statement, Mr. Speaker. Anyone who has studied the history of farming, and I am sure some hon. gentlemen opposite will agree with me, knows that so far as the average production per acre is concerned, North American farming is lower than that of Great Britain or western Europe. Incidentally, the highest return per acre of agricultural land in Canada is found in British Columbia.


John Whitney Pickersgill: That is part of North America.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: In any event, I enjoyed the hon. member's speech. Indeed, I could see that he was living in the past for a short time, thinking of the pioneering days and so was I. I come from a family that was among the thousands of other families in Great Britain who were sold land at the beginning of this century for $100 to $200 per acre in British Columbia; our family was fortunate, and obtained good land. However I know dozens of people who bought rockpiles for $100 per acre, that was an obvious unplanned development. This land was sold by the department of lands headed by the father of the present Minister of Justice (Mr. Fulton) to various land companies in southeastern British Columbia and these land companies 90205-6-265
Marginal Lands Development sold it to green Englishmen as well as various other people from eastern Canada. We are, therefore, making some progress in respect of the utilization of land. I quite agree with the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate that we have made some mistakes and blunders in the past in settling land that never should have been settled. We have placed burdens upon people who wanted to gain their income from the soil, burdens that were completely unnecessary and in many cases unethical.
Having got those observations off my chest,
I wish to say that we support this bill which makes possible a long term program to meet a long time outstanding need, that is the rehabilitation of our rural areas on a logical, scientific basis. As the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate said, this is not going to put men to work immediately. This measure will do little, in fact, to remedy present economic circumstances. This program should have been put into effect 30, 40 or 50 years ago, but I am glad we are starting now. It will take 15, 20 or 30 years before we realize any large scale effects from its application.
The people of the United States have been considering this question, just as we have. The problem there is similar in many of the states, particularly in some of the western and southern states. Since the introduction of the resolution by the ministers, I have been looking up some of the literature that has been published in the United States and reading about some of the programs that have gone into effect. I find that in 1955 a rural development program was initiated as a co-operative effort of the federal, state and local governments, including participation by private individuals and agencies, to develop the human resources of rural America, with particular emphasis on improving the conditions of the numerous low income families, both farm and non-farm, living in rural areas. In a special message to congress on April 27, 1955, the president directed attention to the problems of low income rural families and presented a recommendation for a concerted program developed in a study and report prepared by the department of agriculture.
Then, by an executive order of the president, dated October 12, 1959, the president established a committee of economic advisers in connection with this rural development program. Since that time, there has been a great deal of interest stimulated in the various states in connection with the program to which I have referred. I have read some of the literature. I have read the programs of the various states. I have read of the cooperation between governments, federal and
4190	HOUSE OF
Marginal Lands Development state and local agencies, labour unions, farm organizations and womens' organizations. I think we could draw somewhat from their experience because they have moved fairly quickly in this direction.
However, I might say that I prefer our approach to this question by the introduction of legislation such as we are considering now which provides for the division of responsibility as outlined and for co-operation between governments as well as the funds required to give the program effect. It outlines the specific purpose of the program, provides for co-operation between governments and also the funds required to give the program effect. I prefer this. The United States program is really a program correlating the activities of the numerous agencies in the United States in a rural development program without any central piece of legislation.
However, this program is very extensive. It provides for the conservation of soil, water and wildlife, co-operatives, credit for farming, conservation and home improvement; employment assistance; extension of educational facilities in rural areas, financial aid and services necessary to rural areas; food distribution in certain poverty stricken areas; forestry and forest product development, conservation and forestry management; health and sanitation provision in small towns and in rural areas; income maintenance for old age, survivors' and disability insurance; programs for Indians; development programs in rural areas; industry development in rural areas; marketing improvement; price support; public works planning; rehabilitation of the disabled.
It is interesting to note how these programs are similar to some of ours. Then there is research and resource studies; road and highway improvement in farm areas; vocational training and the development of water resources for domestic irrigation and power purposes. That is a very large scale program to which effect is being given in various states. I was interested to note the scope of the services as outlined in this handbook which is the rural development program handbook issued by the committee for rural development program, Washington, D.C., in September of 1959.
I am particularly interested in forest conservation and forest farm management. I was interested to notice this interesting piece of literature published in connection with the development of forest industry opportunities in rural parts of the United States. I am going to quote briefly from this handbook. I was very much taken with the format and the material in this booklet. It deals with the location of saw mills and things of that type. In any event I quote from this one page in 

order to emphasize the value of a tree planning program and of tree farm management. At page 4 of this booklet it is stated as follows:
Timber owners of course benefit from the sale of timber but it is worth noting that for every dollar the timber owner gets for his stumpage an average of $17.60 more value is added to the original worth of the wood by the time it reaches the ultimate consumer. These additional dollars go out as wages for workers and income for companies engaged in harvesting, processing, fabricating, transporting, and distributing the forest product. If you don't have the industry in your community to convert your trees into forest products, those extra wood-based jobs never show up and those extra dollars just don't circulate among your people.
Then it goes on to deal with the necessity for dealing with tree planting on marginal land and the opportunities in the forest industry on a small scale and so on. It mentions particularly the possibility for the efficient and successful operation of small scale lumbering industry and manufacturing industries. It is proven from their experience under efficient management and with the co-operation of the state agencies concerned with the industries small companies can operate with eight to ten men employed producing lumber just as efficiently and just as cheaply as does a large concern under those particular circumstances.
Then I was interested to note that later on there was a reference to the fifth annual report in connection with this rural development program which interested me in view of the fact that we are now dealing with legislation to commence a similar program in Canada. I quote briefly from it. It is a very interesting report indeed. The thing that interests me is that once the leadership was given by the federal government and by the state government in co-operation with the universities farm organizations and in some cases labour organizations, co-operation was received from farmers and individuals and citizens in the smaller towns and communities to make this program work. It mentions here that there was a feeling "You have got to show me" in the first instance but as this program got rolling, its momentum increased and I am sure ours will too if we get it going. Respect and understanding developed, and respect came with understanding. I think we can learn a great deal from the five years' experience they have had in connection with this type of program. However, to quote briefly from this report:
In spite of many difficult obstacles, the rural development program has consistently been enlarged and made more effective year by year since it was announced in 1955 ...
The record of achievement and progress has been remarkable, especially with the problems to be overcome.

In 1956, less than 25 rural counties in only a handful of states had begun formal programs. Today some 210 counties in all major sections of the nation have the work underway or in the final stage.
Reports show more than 2,000 projects to improve farms, build new industries and expand existing ones, help both youth and adults to obtain the training they need, improve health, and accomplish other aims.
Thirty states and Puerto Rico now have rural development work underway. Regional meetings are going forward throughout the nation to help leaders in all states plan and inaugurate rural development activities.
The whole book is written in an optimistic tenor and gives the statistics in relation to certain developments which indicate that the optimism is justified.
Tonight we are considering second reading of this bill. It is a first and long needed step. It will require over-all and careful planning. It will require careful surveys in co-operation with the provinces of areas that are particularly going ot be attacked. Then it will require understanding on the part of the local people. When you begin to inaugurate a program of this kind you very often run into local misunderstandings or local objections. I have on occasion met men who, if you threatened to move them off 10 acres of rocky land where they had lived for a good many years would resist to the limit. There must be an understanding on the part of the local people of what the provincial and federal governments aim to do for them. I am sure that understanding and co-operation will come with the co-operation of all the government and local agencies concerned. This bill plans to improve agriculture, industrial land, water, forest and wildlife management. It is fortunate that this program has come in at this time. It should have come in years ago. However, regardless of our difficulties at the present time I believe that we are entering a period in Canadian history that presents an unusual challenge.
It is easy to do things when it is easy to do them. However, we are facing problems which will challenge our ingenuity and our ability to co-operate with one another as Canadians, whatever our status and whatever our occupation and will challenge our initiative and our wilingness to work together. I am sure that in the future-and in the very near future I may say-we are going to see more and more people turn from the large centres. As far as I am concerned, in some respects the larger cities are cesspools of iniquity. I have always been in favour of decentralization of population. Mind you, I also realize that with large cities you get great opportunities for cultural activities. Life is full of compensations. But I think people will turn more and more to the rural areas and the small towns that serve them. I see this 90205-6-265J
Marginal Lands Development coming in the future. I have found a change in young men in the last year or two. Young men coming home from the war were anxious to go into industry because of the larger wages there. These were sons of farmers. I find some of them now thinking of going back on the land.
While the income per month is less, the cash is less, a good many of them found out that at the end of the year they saved more from working on the land than they had in what appeared to be well paid jobs in the larger centres. This is because of the higher costs, the tendencies to spend more, get into debt, and so on.
I am sure that, through the rural rehabilitation program, in the rural areas there can be found all the resources required in the future, together with the necessary living and working space to enable people to live and work under satisfactory and happy conditions, with the recreational opportunities which Canadians enjoy.
Where this progam is given effect, in the years to come I am certain it will provide rural economic growth and maintain a vigorous and happy rural life.


Mr. D. R. Gundlock (Lethbridge):: Mr. Speaker, it is very seldom that I take up the time of the house to discuss problems. I am particularly gratified tonight to follow the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate (Mr. Pickersgill) and the hon. member for Kootenay West (Mr. Herridge), especially as they have both indicated their pleasure in supporting this bill.
The hon. member for Kootenay West, belonging to the very quiet and honourable group in the corner, had very little to say but to praise the bill. Like the hon. members, who preceded me in this debate I am rising to support this bill.
The hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate mentioned several aspects of this matter, particularly those concerning the former government. He mentioned the fact that his father homesteaded. I should like to remind the hon. member that my father homesteaded also. This bill is designed particularly to rehabilitate agriculture generally, and as a son of a homesteader I look forward very much to its implementation.
I am in the particular category of farming which the hon. member mentioned. That is what is commonly known as the category of family farms. I do not think it is the intention of this government-although it may have been the intention of former governments-to remove every other farmer, as I think was mentioned, or the small family farmer.
I maintain very strongly, Mr. Speaker, and I say this for the benefit of the hon.

Marginal Lands Development member for Bonavista-Twillingate, that the family farmer in Canada today can compete quite successfully, for the very reason that he is a family farmer.
I have a farm in southern Alberta. It is a family farm. The family consists of six children, as a matter of fact. I do not wish to take up any more time of the house on this point, but I simply say this. My family and I have no trouble in producing agricultural products in competition with so-called larger and more efficient units.
This bill lends itself particularly to the conservation of soil and water. It has been mentioned this evening that it is a long term bill and we will not see any results from it in the near future. However, in supporting this bill tonight I should like to draw your attention, Mr. Speaker, to the subject of the conservation of soil and water. These are immediate problems, and I am quite sure there will be very rapid beneficial effects as a result of this bill.
The hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate mentioned the community spirit being adequate in agriculture at the present time. I take rather keen exception to the fact that the community spirit should be regarded as the answer to what this government has recognized, after so many years, to be a national problem. It certainly cannot be cured any longer at the community level.
It is difficult for me to discuss this rehabilitation bill without relating it to other departments. This bill involves the question of our national economy. The Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Hees), for instance, has pointed out across this country, and I think in so doing has captured the imagination of all Canadian people, what Canadian industry must do, not only to survive but to reach a proper economical level. This must apply to the agricultural economy also.
For instance, in January last in my constituency of Lethbridge, in the vegetables section of one of the chain stores I saw something that I rather disliked. I saw carrots done up in beautiful packages encased in cellophane. I picked up one of these packages and found that it came from California. Compared with the carrots that we raise in our area, these tasted like kindling wood. I am sure the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate will recall what kindling wood tastes like, if he is a homesteader's son.
The point I wish to make is this. I talked to the manager of that chain store and said, "Sir, how much of this exists today in our local market?" The answer was that 80 per cent was imported. This is in an area which is supposed to be highy specialized, a highly productive area, with irrigation and years of experience; yet that situation exists.


This brings me back to my point. For the information of hon. members opposite, this is the reason I tie it in with other departments and industries in Canada, because you must complete the wheel; if you have a spoke out of a wheel, the wheel is no good.
Shortly after the war, and actually up to two or three years ago, Canada had little worry with regard to export markets, in relation to agricultural commodities. It was purely a sellers' market and producers could get almost any price for any product they wished to sell. That situation does not exist today. I could quote from Hansard, as a matter of fact, some remarks which have been made by former ministers in former governments which have actually got us nicely into some of this trouble. At that time we were promoting the sale of primary products -iron, or nickel or agricultural products, etc.-at a time when we should have been promoting secondary industry.
That brings me back to the illustration I gave a moment ago concerning the importation of agricultural products. That is actually the result of the lack of promotion of secondary industry as related to the agriculture industry. We in the agriculture industry must face the same situation as all the other industries in Canada are facing today. We must face the necessity of producing a product that will sell, and then go out and sell it, to quote the words of the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Hees).
As I said previously, I am happy to follow the two previous opposition speakers who have indicated their support for this bill, because it really is something for which the country has been waiting, something of which the country has been in dire need for many years; so long, in fact, that waiting for it has almost got to be a habit. The minister who now holds the portfolio of agriculture, together with his predecessor and this government as a whole must be given a great deal of credit for initiating this bill. Certainly they had a good foundation on which to build. The foundation was the need over the years amounting to a habit that has led up to the present difficulty.
In addition to the problems of production and of secondary industry is the problem of quality control. Today in this house we talked about national design. We must also bear in mind that in addition to design we need Canadian quality. There is no one in this house I am sure who will disagree with the statement that there is no substitute for quality. Quality control goes right along with the development of secondary industry in all industries as well as the agriculture industry. In short, the rehabilitation bill which the

minister has introduced means to me as a simple farmer and as the son of a homesteader a move to restore something to its former usefulness or to its former self.
With that explanation, which is a simple explanation, I begin to wonder what the former self was and why it is not its former self today. I have discussed that at some length, pointing out some reasons for the introduction of this bill and some solutions to the difficulties of the industry itself.
Recalling the former usefulness of the agriculture industry in my area, I can go back 40 or 50 years and it brings to mind the early Mormon settlers, the pioneers of irrigation in my area. Actually, irrigation is related to commercial production in Canada. They developed this industry in our area and produced high quality products for the market in that day making use of a most abundant water supply and most fertile land. Today, markets are different. We need an even higher production. We need even more specialization if we are to compete in world markets or even in our own national market. That is why I am so happy to rise in my place in this house tonight to support this bill. My experience-and my experience has been consistent in my area for years and years because I have watched some of these things develop over the years-is that effective government action has long been needed. Actually, I have abhorred the lack of government action particularly at senior government level.
Tied in with all these things is one subject that I should like to emphasize most of all at this time, the conservation of soil and water. These older irrigation companies- and when I say older irrigation companies I am speaking of irrigation companies in my area in particular and in the constituency immediately east of me, Medicine Hat-I have seen these develop to the point where at the present time we have several irrigation companies, some 16 or 17 of them actually, which by way of comparison may be compared with a municipality since they are corporate entities.
That brings another point to mind. I see the Minister of Labour (Mr. Starr) is here tonight and I should like to recommend that corporate entities such as these irrigation companies might be considered in another year as eligibile to participate in the winter works program. These companies have reached the point today where their capital works have deteriorated to the stage where it is becoming impossible to bring them up to their former standard of usefulness.
Then again, the land, itself, has deteriorated. One irrigation company in particular has told me that they have written off 16,000 acres as being no longer useful
Marginal Lands Development land under the present set up. Now when you multiply that by at least four or five large irrigation companies that adds up to 50,000 or 60,000 acres of formerly good, prime productive soil which is no longer useful. However, it is not past redemption. To bring it back to its former usefulness would require financial aid. I think that perhaps under this bill when it is finally implemented the former usefulness of this land may be increased.
May I say with emphasis that I am happy to rise in my place tonight in support of this bill because never before in Canada's history has it been possible for the federal government to financially assist the various areas of Canada in the restoration to its former usefulness, of what I consider the most important economy in Canada, and I refer of course to the agricultural areas. This will take time but if we have patience we can succeed. There are one or two aspects of the solution which will perhaps not take as long to accomplish as some hon. members opposite think.
The problems I mentioned before in respect to drainage and spoilage in soil resulted from poor management, lack of capital for proper construction of irrigation transmission lines, and other related things, but probably the greatest fault lay in the lack of experience.
The irrigation system to which I have referred was the first applied in Canada on a commercial scale and was quite successful. However, after a period of perhaps 20 to 40 years certain practices were found to be no longer advisable. The experience gained from these unhappy times has perhaps been of value to the construction of later irrigation systems. Through this experience we look forward to increased irrigated acreage in Canada, which will lend itself to increased agricultural production.
I refer particularly to those areas of Saskatchewan which will be irrigated following the completion of the Saskatchewan dam. Surely the experience gained by the solving of the problems encountered in the construction of the early irrigated areas in Canada will be put to use in future years. The present bill will provide an answer to the irrigation problems facing many areas in this country. Although it may be said by some that additional highly specialized agricultural producing areas in our nation should not be developed, I would suggest that within a very short time the necessity of having such areas will be clear. It is essential, therefore, that we profit from the experience of past mistakes and in doing so perhaps recompense those individuals who have suffered in this regard in the past.
This bill refers to conservation of water as well as soil. In my area the conservation of
4194	HOUSE OF
Marginal Lands Development water is very important. It is perhaps more important than even we who live in that area commonly known as the dry land area, realize. I suggest we should be very cognizant of this program because the problem is perhaps more acute than most of us realize. As an example of this, I might suggest that last year there was a water shortage in the Lethbridge northern irrigation district which is primarily supplied by Old Man river which, in turn, is supplied by a rather small watershed in the eastern Rockies, and particularly the Livingstone gap.
Some of the younger people in that irrigation area consider there was a water shortage last year and that the lack of supply was abnormal. However, the long term record shows that it was actually a normal year. I would point out that some of the older hon. members, including perhaps the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate and myself, will remember the drought years. If one could picture conditions following perhaps one, two, three, four or five drought years in relation to last year's normal condition one could realize what might happen if water is not without adequate storage, it is not difficult to visualize the effect on water supply of a drought period followed by, let us say, a forest fire, in the relatively small area of the eastern Rocky mountain watershed. I would suggest these facts have contributed to the present shortage, not only in our area but also downstream.
Mr. Speaker, I must apologize for dealing with the problems of other government departments, and in this case I refer to the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys, and the Department of Forestry, but I would strongly urge that immediate surveys be made for the location and development of extra water storage facilities, and a program developed to prevent the over-grazing of forest reserves. I make these suggestions not only in respect of my own area but in respect of areas to be developed in the future, such as these areas in Saskatchewan to which I have referred.
Mr. Speaker, to digress for a moment, I would like to commend the ministers of the Department of Agriculture and the Department of Labour for introducing the vocational training bill. This has established a precedent. Never before in Canadian history has it been possible by way of legislation for the federal government to contribute financially to such a vocational training scheme. This again must be related to agriculture because, as I pointed out a moment ago, there was a lack of knowledge which resulted in what some people might call poor management. In this day and age in a highly competitive economy, it is all the more necessary that there be specialized


training in this particular sphere of the Canadian economy. I am sure that a vocational training scheme properly utilized can be applied usefully and certainly can be a great benefit to this rehabilitation program.
With the permission of the house I should like to dwell for a moment on vocational training, what I term real vocational training compared with what has been the practice of the departments of education in the various provinces of our nation. Possibly I am going a little far afield but my experience has been that in Alberta, for instance, our young people of high school age spend two, three or four years taking a course in agriculture, mechanics, welding or farm management and after they have spent that period of time in study they are not given any certificate. So far as education in Canada today is concerned, I think we are hampered and held back by hidebound provincialism when, from the national point of view and having in mind the state of transportation and communications today, our education should be on the basis that we are a member of the world community. I hope that as the provinces take advantage of the vocational training scheme, and I am relating it at the moment to agriculture, the provincial departments of education will see to it that after our young people have spent two, three or four years at high school they will not only receive a certificate when they graduate but will have received what I would describe as true vocational training.
By that I mean simply this. The student spends his time on automobile mechanics, a business course or an agricultural course and at the same time there should be a well-rounded program including such subjects as commercial law, business English and so on so that when the young person graduates with a certificate he will have a well-rounded education and what I regard as a real vocational or technical training.
Probably I should apologise for taking so much of the time of the house in mentioning other departments but all this must tie in because it is purely and simply related to this problem. I should like to emphasize that the agricultural industry is no different from any other Canadian industry. It must meet competition. When I was home during the Christmas recess and again at the Easter recess I was sorry to see all the imported products. I do not blame Canadian industry as a whole. It is true that Canadian industries must do their part. Government legislation cannot do everything. As we have been told many times, it is hard to help people who will not help themselves. However, I have great faith in the people who contribute to the agricultural economy of Canada. In my estimation this bill

makes it possible for the first time in Canadian history for them to go ahead on their own and certain financial assistance is provided that is available for the first time in Canadian history.
I should like to urge the departments concerned to have in mind soil and water conservation and the restoration of these assets for the benefit of the agricultural industry of Canada, particularly so far as my area is concerned which should be an area of specialized production of a product of good quality that is readily marketable not only in Canada but in the export markets of the world.


Osias.-J. Godin: Mr. Speaker, I should like to take a few minutes to express certain opinions relating to the general principles found in the bill. Having regard to what was said by the hon. member for Kootenay West (Mr. Herridge), in order to ensure that members will listen to what I have to say I feel I should establish my connection with agriculture.
I am pleased to say that I was born and raised on a farm in the Verner region of northern Ontario which is known to be one of the most active agricultural areas in that part of Ontario. The hon. member who preceded me as well as other hon. members expressed surprise that the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate (Mr. Pickersgill) should be the first speaker on behalf of the Liberal party this evening in regard to this matter. It is my conviction that any member of the opposition who at one time held a ministerial post is definitely of the required calibre and fully qualified to speak on most problems that are of such interest as the bill we are now discussing, and undoubtedly the Canadian people realize that.
I also regret very much that while we are discussing the fundamental principles of this bill having to do with agriculture a measure which the government undoubtedly considers should receive the greatest of attention, the standing committee on agriculture, directed by the house to study the problems of that industry, is at present sitting and has sat all day.
I did not attend the meeting of that committee tonight, but chose to speak on this matter. I think it is most unfortunate, and the finger is pointing at those who engineer the business of this house, that this evening we find many hon. members who have made special studies in connection with this matter unable to attend to listen to the remarks of other hon. members or make contributions themselves. They should be entitled to do so.
There are principles in this bill, Mr. Speaker, with which I do not necessarily fully agree. There is one in particular upon
Marginal Lands Development which I should like to touch. This bill mentions the possibility of further research into agricultural problems. Undoubtedly this is a field from which the people engaged in agriculture can receive the most benefit. The government should make sure these people receive the best technical assistance and the best advice as to production methods.
On the other hand, if you read through the entire bill in an attempt to find the major principle, and if you leave aside the desire for greater research into agricultural problems, you find the bill then becomes a mere political pamphlet. In this bill there is a preamble such as we do not find in other bills of this nature. We find, too, the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Hamilton) is given powers by means of which he may become involved in the problems of other departments. If one reads the bill one can readily see how the Minister of Agriculture may become involved in the problem of unemployment. The minister also has unlimited authority to become involved in major river projects. Anyone reading the bill will realize that the South Saskatchewan river project could have been initiated by the minister on his own authority. Furthermore, the bill contains no provision as to the amount of money which may be involved in any agreement that may be made with the provinces.
I realize, Mr. Speaker, that according to the British North America Act agriculture is partly the responsibility of the federal government and partly the responsibility of the provinces. The phraseology which is employed in this bill leads one to believe that the Minister of Agriculture could pay 100 per cent of the cost of a project within a province. In my opinion we do not find this type of provision in other bills which we have discussed here on previous occasions. The usual practice has been to state the extent to which the federal government could become involved under the bill. The powers given to the minister by this bill are absolutely unlimited. Although the farmers do receive some encouragement from this measure with regard to the research that would be undertaken, I feel it would be most dangerous to accept all the principles which are set forth in the bill.
I shall be most pleased to bring to the attention of the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Jorgenson) certain clauses of the bill which give the minister unlimited power when the measure is discussed in committee. I shall refer also to those provisions which enable the minister to take over responsibilities of other departments.
I am certainly in support of what I consider to be the main principle of this bill, namely

Marginal Lands Development ways and means for encouraging further research into the problems of agriculture. Undoubtedly, the farmers cannot do this for themselves because they lack the equipment, the laboratories and so on to do this work. Agriculture is one of the most important industries in Canada, and at this time the government should certainly promote the necessary research to assist the farm population in taking care of their soil, finding better methods of controlling the soil as well as ways and means of conserving water. We fully realize that the implementation of this bill will assist our farmers, and for that reason we are in favour of it. Certainly when we are discussing the measure in committee, Mr. Speaker, I shall indicate the points which I consider to be wrong in principle.


Mr. J. N. Ormislon (Melville):: Mr. Speaker, I am certainly very glad to be able to speak in support of Bill No. C-77. Those of us who come from the province of Saskatchewan and who have watched the career of our Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Hamilton) for many years, are proud to be able to speak in support of a bill which will endeavour to divert submarginal and marginal farms to more profitable use. This evening we have heard some discussion which has been broad in its aspects but rather vague in some of its generalities. I have listened to some of the opposition members speak, and particularly the last hon. member who referred to the principles which are involved in this bill.
Those of us who have been closely associated with rehabilitation in the past do not have to go very far to find on what principles this bill is based. Twenty six years have now elapsed since the inception of the prairie farm rehabilitation program in 1935 under a Conservative government, to deal with the immediate problems of drought and soil drifting which were then having severe effects on agriculture in the Canadian prairies. During this period of time many policies and projects have been undertaken, varying widely in their nature and scope, to meet the various situations.
Basically, however, they have all had as their one objective better land utilization and more efficient use of available water resources as a means of providing greater security and stability for prairie agriculture. I do not want to apologize at the moment for bringing in prairie agriculture, Mr. Speaker, because we will find in the application of this bill, principles which are fundamental to the Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Act, an act which provided for the rehabilitation of agricultural land and the development of rural areas.

In this connection, much progress has been made and much valuable knowledge and experience has been gained on which to base future long range land and water conservation planning in western Canada. Initially, this work has involved the introduction of those systems of farming, land use, and water supply, which would provide greater economic security for the agricultural population on the prairies and more recently, the development of larger and more comprehensive land utilization and water development schemes that will serve entire agricultural districts and prairie communities.
Cultural improvements which have been made have led to almost a completely new approach to the economics and practice of dry land farming. Techniques in soil management and methods of making more efficient use of limited supplies of soil moisture available, have been developed and are now in common use, which have helped materially to minimize the drought problem in drier area. The development of assured farm water supplies throughout the drought region for domestic, stockwatering and irrigation purposes, has also contributed greatly in bringing about more stable agriculture over a wide area. In particular, the development of assured feed supplies through irrigation for the winter feeding of livestock, and the provision of reserves of feed to carry livestock over periodic dry periods, has given much increased stability to the livestock industry and has been a major factor in encouraging greater agricultural diversification in the plains region.
Finally, the permanent removal from cultivation of lands which have proven submarginal for cereal crop production, and the fencing, regrassing, and other improvement of such areas for community pasture purposes as well as the resettlement and rehabilitation of farmers operating such lands, principally to irrigation projects, has been a major factor in bringing about necessary adjustments in the pattern of land use required on the prairies.
Where these adjustments have been of considerable benefit to the agricultural economy, new and growing demands for water required by larger municipal and urban centres for domestic and industrial purposes, as well as to support large-scale irrigation, have made necessary the development of larger and more comprehensive water storage and irrigation schemes where more dependable and plentiful water supplies can be obtained. To this end, P.F.R.A. in more recent years, has devoted an increasing amount of its attention to this type of development.
Under the terms of the Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Act, an initial appropriation of

$4,750,000 was made to cover the cost of rehabilitation activities for a period of five years, and an advisory committee was established by the act to give leadership to the program.
Rather than establish new services, existing agricultural services were given assistance to expand their operations to handle the work. In particular the experimental farms service played a major role. As the P.F.R.A. program developed, however, a separate administration vas set up in Regina in 1936 to direct water development, while the cultural improvement program continued under the direction of the experimental farms service. Then by amendment to the act in 1937, the P.F.R.A. was extended to include land utilization and resettlement.
It was realized, however, that for the development of a sound agricultural economy on the prairies, more long term measures for rehabilitation would be necessary. In 1939, therefore, additional financial allocations were made and the five-year limitation to the P.F.R.A. was removed.
From the way in which P.F.R.A. has developed, it can be seen that it certainly gave us a sound basis for expansion in the act we have before us tonight. There are other aspects of the Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Act which I am sure will be of interest to those who come from those areas where they can be applied. I want particularly to deal for a few moments with land utilization and resettlement. In order to provide for this type of program an amendment was made to the P.F.R. Act in 1937. The act was broadened in its scope to include land utilization and land settlement. This opened the way for a program which has had a far-reaching effect on the stability of agricultural production in many areas throughout western Canada. By agreement with the provinces of Saskatchewan and Manitoba, lands not considered suitable for cereal crop production may be transferred to the federal government for development by P.F.R.A. into community pastures.
The province concerned selects the area to be developed and obtains control of the land. The land is then leased to the government of Canada which in turn agrees to construct, maintain and improve community pasture facilities in the area selected. In this way land subject to the hazards of soil drifting is removed permanently from cultivation and is again protected by a grass cover.
As these submarginal and marginal lands are converted into productive pastures, livestock production on the surrounding farms is being increased, thus making possible a greater diversity of farm income. Since the community pasture program began in 1937, a
Marginal Lands Development total of 1,886,364 acres of land have been developed into 65 separate pasture units. These pastures, primarily intended for reserve grazing areas to supplement farm and ranch pastures, are now providing controlled spring, summer, and fall grazing for over 120,000 head of stock annually belonging to some 6,331 farmers. In addition, a considerable tonnage of hay and some grass seed has frequently been harvested from these pastures. The program of pasture improvement carried on by P.F.R.A. has provided leadership to farmers in the development of their own farm pastures.
The resettlement of farmers from these submarginal areas has been handled jointly by the federal government and provincial governments concerned. Where available, the provincial governments provide suitable crown land on which to resettle farmers. P.F.R.A. in turn accepts responsibility for moving the farmers and their effects to their new locations, and the development of the submarginal areas turned over to P.F.R.A. for pasture purposes. Every effort is made to resettle farmers on lands which are located close to existing or proposed pastures so that the farmers may take advantage of the supplementary grazing facilities the pastures provide.
Where it has not been possible to find crown lands suitable for resettlement, P.F.R.A. has provided its own through irrigation development. Two such schemes have been built specifically for resettlement purposes in Alberta. The first involved the development of a large block of land adjacent to the eastern irrigation district called the Rolling Hills project, on which 118 farm families from the drought areas have been moved. The other is the Bow river irrigation project where approximately 27,000 acres in an area called the Hays district has been set aside for resettlement. There are now 162 farm families settled in the district.
Similarly on somewhat the same principle, five resettlement and rehabilitation projects have been built in the heart of the drought area in southwestern Saskatchewan. The only difference is that for these projects the purposes and objectives of the resettlement and rehabilitation program have been achieved without necessarily involving the movement of farmers to new locations. The five schemes, namely the Valmarie, Eastend, Consul, Maple Creek and Swift Current irrigation projects, are subdivided into 40-80 acre plots which are leased out or sold to farmers in surrounding districts for feed production. On the irrigated land, farmers can be assured of producing adequate and

Marginal Lands Development dependable winter feed supplies as well as reserves of feed to carry stock over prolonged drought periods.
In a similar manner hundreds of farmers have been rehabilitated without the necessity of moving from their farms by the development of farm-size and small community irrigation schemes built throughout the prairies with P.F.R.A. assistance.
With regard to water development, this work is carried out under the supervision of the water development division of the agricultural services branch. Projects constructed under this program are divided into two main categories according to the size of the project, the number of people benefiting, and the cost of construction. These include individual and neighbour projects, and community projects.
Individual and neighbour projects include those works which serve the needs of one or two farmers. These are generally in the form of small dams and dug-outs that supply water for stockwatering and domestic use, and/or for irrigation purposes. In such cases P.F.R.A. provides all engineering services required to plan and design the project, and a portion of the construction costs.
The rate of assistance paid on individual projects is based on yardage of earth moved and amounts to seven cents per cubic yard up to a maximum of $250 in the case of dug-outs, $300 for stockwatering dams and $600 for irrigation projects.
Where two or more farmers pool their water resources to build neighbourhood projects, assistance is paid up to a maximum of $1,000.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Order. The hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate has risen to a point of order.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I have been listening quite carefully to what the hon. member has been saying, and recalling at the same time Your Honour's decision earlier in the day in respect to another measure.
I am wondering how a detailed, historical account of what has been going on under another act of parliament which has been in operation for many years can be related to a debate on the principle of this bill.
It does seem to me, sir, that in view of the fact we are being asked to sit very long hours in this house to expedite the business of the house, there should be on the part of the supporters of the government the same kind of relevancy that is expected from those of us on this side of the house.


James Norris Ormiston: Mr. Speaker, I should like to point out to the hon. member who has just resumed his seat that when I began discussing this bill I said it was based on rehabilitation. The principles of rehabilitation have been well advanced under the Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Act, the principle of which will be the basis of the present legislation.
The Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Act will be taken over by this bill in so far as concerns the rehabilitation of agricultural land and the development of rural areas, and will be an integral part of that act. For this reason I believe it is most relevant to show hon. members what they can expect under the advancement of this legislation.
I have not very much more to say, Mr. Speaker. However, I should like to mention that while the immediate needs of farmers are being met by P.F.R.A., attention has also been given in more recent years to the construction of larger irrigation and reclamation projects involving the development of many thousands of acres of land.
Such undertaking are in line with the long range land use plan to provide for expansion and stability in Canada's growing economy. Of 'an estimated 3 million acres of potentially irrigable land in western Canada, 1| million acres have been or are in the process of being developed. The aim is, when conditions warrant, to develop the remainder of this valuable resource.
The development of these large irrigation and reclamation works in western Canada, which either because of their size or location have not been included under the regular P.F.R.A. appropriation, has in recent years been under the supervision of the prairie farm rehabilitation administration.
These projects are undertaken by agreement between the federal government and the provincial government concerned, on a cost sharing basis. Special authorization of parliament is of course required for the construction of these major projects.
In conclusion, may I remind the house that this will of course be a fairly expensive project. However, the money will be used to make productive what is not now productive, or is only scantily so. It will be used to train farmers in different and more productive types of farming. It will be used to preserve the remaining natural resources of this nation, which we hope can be restored to their natural value.


Mr. H. W. Danforih (Kent, Oni.):: Mr. Speaker, I rise in my place tonight with the sincere desire, in speaking on this measure, to bring to the attention of hon. members of this house the absolute necessity at this time

of acting on this measure which deals with the conservation of soil and water resources, and the terrible consequences of any delay on the part of the governments concerned.
I confess that I am indeed greatly disturbed by the tenor of the opinions expressed by the hon. members in opposition tonight and in other discourse on this measure. These hon. members seem to be dealing in generalities and political expediency rather than with the consequences of such a measure in relation to agricultural and other resources of this great nation of ours.
I am sure that if they indeed understood the ramifications of this bill they would be more fully aware of the absolute necessity that we act, and at the earliest opportunity.
The quotation commonly used, that familiarity breeds contempt, can in no manner be more fully illustrated than in regard to the attitude of some of the occupants of this country toward its soil. Soil is a commodity of which it was thought that we, a comparatively new country, had an endless supply. The degree of fertility of soil is the very basis of the life of humans on this earth today.
This soil is not unlimited either, because it is only the very top few inches of soil which is the direct source of the world's food supply for man and beast.
I think the contempt with which we treat this vital resource is truly appalling. Consider even the descriptive names that we use, such as earth, dirt, filth, mud, dust and grit. These are hardly terms of endearment. Indeed, our disregard for this commodity in this country has reached such a degree that it is a fact that we have in Canada more fertile soil covered by broken down machinery and used cars than the total fertile soil area that can be found in some countries.
In this country we take soil, and what do we do with it? We dump it in rivers; we put it in swamps; we use it to fill lakes, crevices, craters and ravines. We seem to do everything that we can to be rid of it.
On the other hand, in other countries it may be looked upon almost as a treasure. If found, it is carried home gently in a pail, a cloth or even a basket and is carefully tended in order to produce a tiny quantity of food for a hungry people.
It is well known that in regard to food prouction per given unit of soil, our country either equals or excels any other nation in the world. It is true that our basic agricultural problems today are perhaps caused by the overproduction of various kinds of food. Why would an area such as Kent county, which I represent-or indeed all southwestern Ontario, which is one of the high production areas of food in Canada-
Marginal Lands Development have need of a conservation program for soil and water? What need have we for tree farms, community pastures, or indeed government aid under a bill such as we have before us tonight?
I should like to elaborate on this point because I fear hon. members are not aware that we in these areas of high production have perhaps some of the most submarginal land that can be found in Canada today. May I point out to hon. members that too often when disaster is about to strike the indications are least evident. This is a fact often borne out by history. Hon. members will recall the history of the races of Indians who used to inhabit Central America and the southern United States, nations which were in an advanced state of civilization. Their main food was corn. This corn was grown on ground from which the virgin forest had been burnt off. This burning served to kill the weeds and sterilize the ground. It provided a fertile source for the corn, and the process served very well for two or three years. When the time came when the weeds had choked out the corn it was a common practice to burn off another part of the forest and move to the new area.
These nations practised no form of conservation and their neglect led to terrible consequences. Indeed, when there was no more virgin forest left to cultivate the nation almost starved to death, because when the weeds choked out the corn they had no method of controlling them, not even that of pulling out the weeds.
We can recall the dust bowls in the United States, in our own west and in other countries, dust bowls caused by the scarcity of rainfall and by our own agricultural practices which remove the grass cover. May I dare to say that lack of knowledge and direction is more serious than most people imagine or could even dream? As I pointed out, lack of proper conservation even in our richest farm land is causing us to lose our topsoil fertility at the rate of hundreds of thousands of tons, not in a generation but each and every year. Farmers are the first to become aware of the forces that are constantly at work to waste and destroy this greatest of our national resources, fertile soil, which is in effect the lifeblood of our world.
All too often the picture conjured up by the word "erosion" is the rushing of water caused by melting snow or heavy rains pouring down the hills and slopes to creeks and rivers and carrying with it topsoil from the surface in its violent rush and depositing this soil in lakes, rivers and oceans. This is witnessed today by the tremendous expenditure each year on dredging this sediment from

Marginal Lands Development channels and river mouths. This erosion is a fact, but I might point out that it represents only a small part of the picture. There are other ways in which soil is eroded, not so violent but equally deadly, and these processes are at work on our soil 24 hours of every day.
One of them is our method of farming. By constantly cropping for cash crops we remove tons of essential elements from the soil and return little in their place. The cultivating methods used by farmers today tend to keep our soil in a loose, friable condition in which it is most liable not only to erosion by water but to seeping down in fine particles through the soil itself into the subsoil out of reach of the searching roots of plant life where, very often, through man-made underground water drains they are ultimately carried by surface water to rivers, lakes and seas.
May I have the indulgence of the house to illustrate by a small example the magnitude of the problem? In an experiment conducted by the soil and water conservation research centre, Ohio, as reported in the February 1961 issue of "Successful Farming" on page 47, the following facts were noted as having been achieved. Each of two watersheds was planted to corn following two years of meadow. Here is the manner in which the two identical watersheds were treated in order to determine the amount of possible erosion and the effects, if any, of a planned conservation program which took the form of a change in the accepted practice in the planting of a crop of corn. The one was ploughed across the slope, disked twice, harrowed once, planted on the contour, and cultivated twice to control weeds. Hon. members familiar with this crop will, I am sure, agree this is normal procedure. The fertility level of this tract was low; the soil was limed to a PH of 5.4-this is an index reading of the degree of acidity of the soil-and an alsike red clover-timothy mixture was the meadow crop ploughed under.
The conservation method, one of minimum tillage, was ploughed on the contour, following the natural curvature of the slope, throwing the furrow slices uphill. The planting operation followed the ploughing, planting inside the tractor wheel tracks, and there was no further working of the soil, hence the term minimum tillage. This watershed had a high level of fertility; it was limed to a PH of 6.8 on a ploughdown of clover-alfalfa-timothy mixture. The run-off and eroded soil were measured on each watershed and the results seem almost unbelievable. In one season, the results of the conventional method as compared to the conservation method were as follows based on a unit of one acre; water run-off, 98,000


gallons compared to 270 gallons; top fertile soil 7.1 tons compared to 60 lbs; yield, 70 bushels of corn compared to 82 bushels. What better proof is needed of the tremendous need of a conservation program in our best farming areas?
How can we detect erosion? Does it require a trained technical expert and elaborate experimental equipment? Not at all. Anyone who takes the trouble to really see the soil they look at, can see it all around them. First, there is often a very marked decrease in the amount of produce derived from a given area of land. The character of the soil itself often changes very radically and instead of being soft, granular, sweet-smelling and springy, it becomes hard, cement-like in texture, resistant to water penetration and has a tendency to dry very quickly and blow very easily.
To this, however, is added the more insidious and dangerous fact that the food from such soil becomes constantly lower in its nutrient content. There is less mineral content, less protein, carbohydrates, and in some instances a tremendous scarcity of the trace of essential elements normally found in such foods, with the result that such food used for man or beast can cause many diseases and malformation directly attributable to malnutrition. For further proof we have only to compare the chemical analysis of such food with those produced from new or virgin soil. The difference is startling in its magnitude.
We find also that not only are crops on eroded soils stunted and of lower food value, but are more adversely affected by the elements and by drought, and far more subject to attack by disease and insects with a consequent further drop in production. It is true we have learned to augment some of the fertility of the soil by chemicals called fertilizers but even to these we have to continually add more and more elements to spur production. In many instances even this fails and the farmer soon learns that fertilization is a medicine and not a cure.
One other effect of soil erosion is the reduction of soil population. Hon. members know, I am sure, that soil should be living. Every cubic inch of soil contains billions of micro-organisms so very necessary for the growth of plants and the production of food. These micro-organisms work on insoluble elements in the soil and, either by the production of acids or enzymes, or concerted action with other species, reduce rocks, elements and vegetable matter to a substance, soluble and in a form available to plants as a food. When these micro-organisms are not in the soil in sufficient numbers, plants will not thrive or even grow at all.

Farmers can see this on their farms. Vegetation ploughed down in the fall should be worked on by these organisms and by the next growing season should be broken down to a rich black mulch containing a high percentage of plant food. In a great many instances today, ploughs are turning up vegetation of a previous year almost in identical condition as ploughed down. The microorganisms are not there and the soil becomes hard in nature, difficult to work and water runs off instead of percolating through. As a result we have a poor farm incapable of providing a normal standard of living for the occupants. This complete breakdown in soil is the direct result of erosion aided and abetted by the elements and could, if allowed to proceed unchecked, starve a nation.
Fortunately through the years by trial and error, by research and experiment, man has learned to combat this force to a limited degree; limited only by finance which curtails the necessary experimental work, and by legislation which would provide a coordinated and directed effort to fight this erosion-in other words, soil conservation. For this reason I wish not only to go on record as strongly supporting the principle of this bill, but to ally myself with the hon. members for Lambton-Kent (Mr. Campbell) and Halton (Mr. Best), and other hon. members who have long advocated a federal agriculture research committee to co-ordinate all experimental work in agriculture in order that advances may be much greater with far less duplication. These hon. members are on record as being in support of this proposal and I too wish to be placed in that category.
May I now pay tribute to industry which has recognized this problem to a remarkable degree. In Kent county very many industries, such as fertilizer companies, canning companies, and some machine companies, as a public service will either themselves test a farmer's soil for deficiency and recommend fertilizer and tillage methods to correct these defects, or using a local company, such as the C & D Sugar Company, who run experimental farms in the area, carry on research, grow demonstration crops and hold field days to enable the farmers to observe the results for themselves, and all of this at no cost to the farmer, except an earnest desire on their part to conserve and preserve the fertile soil to increase its productivity. This company-and as I am proud to say many companies in Kent county; Libby's Canners, C.I.L. and Canada Packers-actually has a staff of agricultural specialists available at no cost to farmers to aid and advise in all matters of soil conservation and production.
Business of the House
At this time I would like to pay tribute to the agricultural schools, colleges and agricultural representatives who have graduated from these schools and colleges, who offer such tremendous help in pointing out the value of soil conservation, and who have introduced practices to combat the deadly scourge of erosion.
May I suggest to hon. members that the problem of soil and water conservation of this nation should not be left entirely on the shoulders of such companies, noble as is their effort, but should instead be guided and co-ordinated by a joint federal-provincial agency. This agency should have the end in view of accomplishing the maximum amount of conservation in the minimum amount of time, and have sufficient funds placed at their disposal to allow them to begin the great measures necessary to counteract the tremendous forces of erosion ever present in Canada today.
I fail to see why all hon. members cannot endorse this measure completely. I would like to go on record as supporting this bill in its entirety and would very seriously entreat all hon. members to look into this aspect of soil erosion of our very fine farm lands today.


An hon. Member:: Mr. Speaker, may I call it 10.30 o'clock?


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: It is 10.30 but I see the hon. member for Selkirk (Mr. Stefanson) rising.


An hon. Member:: It is 10.30 o'clock.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: We should call it 10.30.


John Whitney Pickersgill: It is 10.30.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, before I ask the house leader what the business is for tomorrow, might I respectfully suggest to him that instead of carrying on with this debate while waiting for the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Hamilton) could we just adjourn this debate until he is back to wind it up and go on instead with something else in order that we make more progress? I hope the minister will give us plenty to do tomorrow because it is going to be another long day.


Mr. Peters:: Could I also suggest that this matter be deferred while the agricultural committee is meeting, as it has been today, because the majority of the hon. members who wish to speak on this bill also have to

Business of the House
attend the meetings of the agriculture committee and it seems to me that they should not be expected to divide their attention beween the two.


Gordon Minto Churchill: All these sugestions will be taken under consideration, Mr. Speaker.
Tomorrow we will have third reading of Bill No. C-85 regarding the national design council, followed by the consideration of Bill No. C-87, concerning agreements under the Coal Production Assistance Act. Then we will follow with second reading of Bill No. C-88 dealing with the army benevolent fund. These three items will not take up much time of the house.
The next item will be second reading of Bill No. C-86, an act to amend the Fisheries Act, followed by second reading of Bill No. C-77, the bill we have just been debating. I presume the Minister of Agriculture will
be here to conclude the debate on second reading. That will be followed by a resolution in the name of the Minister of Transport dealing with freight rates reduction. The seventh item I have marked here is the resolution which appears on the order paper today in the name of the Minister of Finance dealing with the Farm Improvement Loans Act.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Would the minister consider the possibility at some early stage of completing the deliberations on the motion to set up the sessional committee on railways and shipping so that the committee can proceed? I take it that the debate is practically over.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Yes, that will be done very soon.
At 10.30 p.m. the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to special order.