1961-03-29

Hon. Donald M. Fleming (Minister of Finance):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to table copies in English and in French of a report by the tariff board on reference No. 127, which relates to nails of iron or steel. I am also tabling a copy of the transcript of the proceedings at the public hearings on this reference in conformity with section 6 of the Tariff Board Act.
I have had prepared a brief summary of the conclusions and recommendations contained in the report. This summary may be of interest to hon. members, and I should be glad to table it if I have unanimous consent to do so. Additional copies will be available to any hon. members who desire them.



STARRED QUESTIONS


[Stage Direction]
Qustion No. 226-Mr. Muir (Cape Breton
North and Victoria):
1.	Has the report of the interdepartmental committee on the establishment of an automobile ferry service between the mainland and eastern Newfoundland been received by the Department of Transport?
2.	If so. did it make any recommendation as to the ports between which such service would operate?
3.	Has a final decision been made as to the establishment of this ferry service?
Hon. Leon Balcer (Minister of Transport):: Mr. Speaker, the answer to parts 1, 2 and 3 is that the report of the interdepartmental committee has been received and is under study. Certain related matters require further clarification before any decision on its recommendations or any statement on the subject can be made.


TABLE GLOVE CUTTERS
Mr. Forgie: 1.	Is it a fact that (a) there is a shortage of table glove cutters in Prescott, Ontario, and (b) table glove cutters are in receipt of unemployment insurance in the Montreal area?
2.	If so, is there any provision by which such a situation can be changed?


Mr. R. D. Thrasher (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Labour):: The answer to this question is as follows:
1.	(a) The Prescott office of the national employment service has no vacancies listed by local employers at this time for tabla glove cutters.
(b) Thirteen persons are registered for employment as table glove cutters with the Montreal offices of the national employment service and are in receipt of unemployment insurance benefit.
2.	Provision exists through the national employment service system of clearance whereby job opportunities listed with the Prescott office that cannot be filled from local labour supply may be brought to the attention of suitable workers who are registered for employment at other national employment service offices.


CAPE BRETON HIGHLANDS NATIONAL PARK
Mr. McWilliam: 1.	Has a change of crew affecting 26 persons been effected in the Cape Breton Highlands national park?
2.	If so, has the minister received representations from the municipal councillors of the area alleging that established employment procedures in this case have been laid aside and replaced by political considerations?
3.	What reply has the minister made to any such representations, and have instructions been issued to restore the former situation?


Hon. W. G. Dinsdale (Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources):: 1.	Yes. It is the policy to change crews from time to time so that the available work is spread around as equitably as possible in the area. I am informed that this policy has been in operation in the Cape Breton Highlands national park for some time.
2.	Yes.
3.	An interim reply was sent out on March 18. I have asked for further information on the matter to determine that the rotational policy has been equitably followed.


ENGINEERING AND ECONOMIC SURVEYS, CHIGNECTO CANAL
Mr. McWilliam: 1.	Has the engineering survey of the proposed Chignecto canal been completed?
2.	If not, when is it expected it will be completed?
3.	If completed, when will the report be tabled in the House of Commons?

Starred. Questions
4.	Has the economic survey of the proposed Chignecto canal been completed?
5.	If not, when is it expected it will be completed?
6.	If completed, when will the report be tabled in the House of Commons?


Hon. D. J. Walker (Minister of Public Works):: The answer is as follows:
1.	No.
2.	The present stage of the study is too preliminary for determination of the total amount of work to be done. Therefore a completion date cannot be established at the present time. The last meeting with New Brunswick officials was held on March 14, and further meetings are planned.
3.	Not applicable.
4.	No.
5.	All information required to assess the economic feasibility has not yet been received, and until it has, the time required for analysis of it cannot be determined.
6.	Not applicable.


EXTENSION OF LAND MAIL SERVICE CONTRACTS, N.B.
Mr. McWilliam: 1.	How many requests for extension of land mail service contracts in New Brunswick were refused since July 1957?
2.	What are the names of the persons making these requests, and the names of the land mail services?
3.	In how many of these cases were the awarded tender prices higher than the previous contracts?


Hon. W. M. Hamilton (Postmaster General):: 1.	4.
2.	Mr. J. Roy McWilliam, M.P., Chatham and street letter boxes; Mr. Murray Paget, mail contractor, Lakeville and Woodstock; Mr. Guy C. Clark, mail contractor, Upper Woodstock, R.R. No. 1; Mr. Alexandre Daigle, Jr., mail contractor, Kouchibouguac and Richibucto.
3.	None.


C.N.R. DISPATCHING FACILITIES, PRINCE GEORGE, B.C.
Mr. Howard: 1.	What accommodation is presently available to the Canadian National Railways in Prince George, B.C., for the dispatching facilities which are to be moved to that city from Smithers, B.C.?
2.	Is any additional accommodation required for the said dispatching facilities, and, if so, what sort, and what will be the cost of providing such additional accommodation?
3.	Will Canadian National Railways have to rent any buildings or accommodation at Prince George, B.C., for the said dispatching facilities, and, if so, what will be the (a) monthly (b) annual rent payable?
4.	From whom will such accommodation be rented?
5.	In what way will the relocation of the dispatching facilities be more efficient or economical?


Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker, the management of Canadian National Railways advise as follows:
1.	The plan is to provide for conversion of express quarters into a suitable dispatching office. Minimum renovation costs only will be involved in providing this accommodation.
2.	Answered by No. 1.
3.	No.
4.	Answered by No. 3.
5.	The relocation of the dispatching office and facilities will enable them to be located where the natural division of traffic occurs, with approximately 50 per cent moving between Prince George and Jasper and the remainder between Prince George and Prince Rupert. The location of the facilities at Prince George will simplify and result in more efficient handling of interchange traffic with the Pacific Great Eastern Railway at that point.


FLOOD THREATS TO INDIAN RESERVES, GRAND RAPIDS DEVELOPMENT
Mr. Howard: 1.	Is any Indian reserve threatened with flooding as a result of the Grand Rapids power development, and, if so, what is the name of each such reserve, its area, and the band membership?
2.	What steps are being taken to provide compensation to the said bands for the loss of their land, and, if any price has been agreed upon, what is it in so far as each reserve is concerned?
3.	Are any steps being taken to provide substitute reserve land for these bands, and, if so, what steps, and where will the new reserves be established, and what will be the acreage of each?
4.	Are any arrangements being made to finance the movement of the band members to the new reserves, or any other place, and, if so, what are the details of these arrangements?


Hon. E. D. Fulton (Acting Minister of Citizenship and Immigration):: Mr. Speaker, the answers are as follows:
1.	Yes, partially. Moose Lake reserve and Chemawawin reserve, which together comprise a total area of approximately 9,072 acres. The membership of the bands is Moose Lake, 185 and Chemawawin, 221,
2,	3 and 4. These matters are under discussion with the Manitoba department of mines and natural resources acting for the Manitoba hydroelectric board.


TEACHER'S RESIDENCE, CAUGHNAWAGA INDIAN RESERVE
Mr. Lessard: 1.	Is the Department of Public Works building a teacher's residence on the Caughnawaga Indian reserve?
2.	If so, have any complaints been received about the materials being used in this building?
3.	If there have been any complaints, has an investigation been made, and what is the result of the investigation?


David James Walker: 1.	Yes.
2.	No.
3.	Not applicable.


DIRECTIVE RESPECTING RETIREMENT BEFORE 65
Mr. Tardif: 1.	Has any directive been issued in any government department encouraging civil servants to tender their resignations before the normal retirement age of 65 years?
2.	If so, what is the purpose of this directive, and under whose authority, and in what department has it been circulated?


Hon. Noel Dorion (Secretary of State):: Mr. Speaker, this question requires us to get in touch with all government departments. The majority of the replies have been received, but there are still a few departments to be heard from. I would therefore ask that this question be allowed to stand.
Question stands.


RESERVE TRADESMEN TRAINING PLAN, R.C.A.F.
Mr. Meunier: 1.	Did the Royal Canadian Air Force advertise among high school students to join the reserve tradesmen training plan?
2.	If so, how many applicants have been successful, and what is the purpose of this particular tradesmen training plan?


Mr. Egan Chambers (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of National Defence):: The answers are as follows:
1.	A limited amount of advertising was carried out on behalf of R.C.A.F. auxiliary squadrons sponsoring the reserve tradesmen training plan at high schools located in the vicinity of these units.
2.	Nine thousand and eleven have successfully completed training since its inception in 1953. The purpose of this plan is to provide qualified tradesmen for R.C.A.F. auxiliary units.


RECRUITMENT OF CENSUS WORKERS
Mr. Godin: 1.	Are workers being recruited at present for the taking of the census?
2.	If so, what method of recruitment is used, and are local offices of the unemployment insurance commission asked to provide personnel for census taking?


Mr. E. L. Morris (Parliamentary Secretary lo the Minister of Trade and Commerce):: Mr. Speaker, many thousands of Canadians will be employed in the important national undertaking of the 1961 census of Canada this year. Several hundred are being recruited by the civil service commission of Canada to augment regional office staffs of the dominion bureau of statistics across Canada and the
Starred Questions
head office at Ottawa, and in this phase of the work the commission is following its customary relationship with the national employment service. In addition, some 1,300 commissioners and 27,000 enumerators will be required. The time allowed for replies to starred questions is not such as to permit a detailed description of this procedure, but the house will be interested to hear that this is one of those not too common occurrences in which the present administration is following the same procedure as that followed in the 1951 census of Canada.


Mr. Mcllraith:: That is not right.


Edmund Leverett Morris: The hon. gentleman in whose name this question stands may be strengthened, therefore, in the knowledge that he can secure all the details from his colleague, the present member for Ottawa West, who was then parliamentary assistant.

On the orders of the day:


George James McIlraith: Mr. Speaker, I should like to rise to make a personal explanation which perhaps involves a question of privilege. In answer to starred question No. 236 of today's proceedings the parliamentary secretary, in giving the answer, made a certain statement of fact and then went on to make gratuitous references alleging that the facts he had given would indicate that the same procedure was followed in taking the 1951 census. He then proceeded to indicate that I-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


George James McIlraith: -was familiar with that procedure and perhaps responsible for it. The explanation I wish to make is that the procedure to be used in the 1961 census taking is basically and fundamentally different from that used in 1951.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member is not making an explanation regarding something that relates to himself personally. In so far as reference was made to obtaining information from the hon. member for Ottawa West regarding the procedure used by him, the answer went beyond what might have been expected as a factual answer, but there does not seem to me to have been any reflection on the conduct of any member which would require an explanation or a member to rise on a matter of privilege. The course the hon. member is now following is to contradict the answer.


George James McIlraith: No, Mr. Speaker.


Mr. Speaker:: I do not wish to stop the hon. member from making an explanation if he

Starred Questions
feels he has been implicated, but he must confine himself to that aspect of it.


George James McIlraith: That is the point, Mr. Speaker, I am not saying that the factual part of the answer that was given is wrong at all, but seeking to point out that the information which related to me was wrong. I was referring to the answer only in so far as it had reference to me. I propose, Mr. Speaker, with your concurrence, to limit myself to that narrow point.
It was indicated by that answer that when I had some activity or responsibility in this field the system was the same as now when something over a thousand census commissioners are being appointed. I wish to make very clear now that no such system was used by me. One census commissioner was appointed for each electoral district during the 1951 census. The present system of appointing a number of commissioners for each electoral district was one with which I had no association whatever.


UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE CLAIMANTS
Mr. Robichaud: What was the total number of claimants for unemployment insurance benefits as of March 1, 1961, as compared with similar date for 1959 and 1960?


Richard Devere Thrasher: Mr. Speaker, the latest data released on claimants for unemployment insurance are those for January 31, 1961. The numbers at this date and at comparable dates in 1959 and 1960 are:
January 31,	1959	
785,071January 31,	1960	
782,542January 31,	1961	
846,940


CIVIL SERVICE RESIDENCE REGULATION
Mr. Richard (Ottawa East): 1.	Is there a civil service regulation requiring applicants for government employment to be resident in the area for 12 months prior to being accepted as successful applicants?
2.	If so, what classification of employment does this regulation cover?
3.	Has any consideration been given to waiving this regulation in the case of residents of areas of chronic unemployment who wish to secure an appointment elsewhere in the country?


Noël Dorion: Mr. Speaker, the answer to this question is as follows:
1.	Yes; see section 20, subsection 3, Civil Service Act.
2.	This subsection covers all appointments to civil service positions other than those in departmental headquarters at Ottawa.
3.	No.


FIRM POWER EXPORTS, N.B. TO U.S.
Mr. Cardin: 1.	Is there an order-in-council approving the export firm power to the United States by a New Brunswick company?
2.	If so, what amount of power is involved, and over what period does the licence extend?


Edmund Leverett Morris: 1.	P.C. 1959-334 gave authority to the following companies to export firm power until March 31, 1960:
(a)	Maine and New Brunswick Electrical Power Company (a New Brunswick company).
(b)	Fraser Companies Ltd. (a New Brunswick company).
These licences were transferred to the national energy board jurisdiction under P.C. 1959-1411 and the expiry date was extended to December 31, 1961, by an amendment to section 99 of the National Energy Board Act assented to March 31, 1960.
2.	(a) Maine and New Brunswick Electrical Power Company, firm licence for 5,000 kilowatts.
(b) Fraser Companies Ltd. firm licence for 1,500 kilowatts. P.C. 1960-1646 granted a firm licence to Fraser Companies Ltd. for 15,000 kilowatts until December 1, 1965.


C.B.C. EXPENDITURES, VANCOUVER
Mr. Broome: 1.	What amount is paid in rental for Canadian Broadcasting Corporation accommodation in Vancouver?
2.	What are total costs of C.B.C. operations in Vancouver, exclusive of rental costs for (a) radio (b) television (c) other services?


Hon. George C. Nowlan (Minister of National Revenue):: I am informed by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation as follows:
1.	$102,045.12.
2.	(a) $1,259,532.
(b)	$3,035,270.
(c)	Nil.


R.C.A.F. AIRCRAFT PUBLICATIONS, 1958-59
Mr. Hellyer: 1.	Were any aircraft equipment schedules, repair manuals, parts manuals, or other documents, relating to aircraft no longer in the R.C.A.I'. serviceable inventory, printed during the fiscal year 1958-59?
2.	If so, what were they, and how many copies of each were printed?
3.	Have any of them been burned since the time of publication?
4.	If so, how many?


Egan Chambers: The records are being searched in regard to this matter. May I ask that the question stand.
Question stands.


JUDITH JASMIN, C.B.C.
Mr. Pigeon: 1.	What position does Miss Judith Jasmin hold *with the French network of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation?
2.	For how many years has she held the said
position?
3.	What are her working conditions (salary and remuneration) ?
4.	Is it true that Miss Judith Jasmin is to represent the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation at a convention to be held Saturday, April 8, at the University of Montreal, for the opening of a campaign in favour of the establishment of a nondenominational public school system?


George Clyde Nowlan: I am informed by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation as follows:
1.	Miss Judith Jasmin is a program interviewer on contract.
2.	Since 1956 Miss Jasmin has acted as a reporter and commentator on a fee basis.
3.	Miss Jasmin is presently engaged on contract as an interviewer for the program "Premier Plan". She receives the remuneration stipulated in the contract which the C.B.C. has negotiated with her.
4.	No.


URANIUM PURCHASES BY BRITISH ATOMIC ENERGY AUTHORITY
Mr. Cardin: 1.	What is the date of the letter which covers the firm commitment made by the British Atomic Energy Authority to purchase 12,000 tons of uranium from Canada, between 1963 and 1966?
2.	Has the British government accepted this commitment as a contractual obligation which it must live up to, unless released by mutually agreed arrangement with the Canadian government?
3.	On what date did the atomic energy authority of the United Kingdom express a desire to re-nego-tiate the terms of this commitment?
4.	What particular terms did the atomic energy authority wish to renegotiate, and what changes were sought?


Hon. George H. Hees (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: 1.	March 29, 1957.
2.	It is not in the public interest to discuss the details of these proposals during the period that negotiations are still proceeding.
3.	April 3, 1958.
4.	As I stated in answer to No. 2, it is not in the public interest to discuss the details of these proposals during the period that negotiations are still proceeding.



FREIGHT RATES


Mr. Hazen Argue (Assiniboia):: Mr. Speaker, I ask leave to move the adjournment of the
Freight Rates
house under standing order 26 for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely the decision of the board of transport commissioners allowing an increase in freight rates on grain moving from Georgian bay to eastern ports, scheduled to go into effect April 1, and the urgent need of the government to announce without delay the setting aside of this order under section 53 of the Railway Act in order to prevent a serious reduction in grain prices to western producers.


Mr. Speaker:: Perhaps the hon. member would indicate a little more specifically of what the specific, urgent matter he wishes to discuss consists of.


Hazen Robert Argue: The urgent matter consists of order No. 103860 of the board of transport commissioners, which would allow an increase in freight rates on grain moving from Georgian bay to the eastern ports of Saint John and Halifax. It has been announced in the press that the railways intend to take advantage of this order on April 1. Since this is the last day of this session prior to the recess, and in view of the fact that April 1 occurs on Saturday and that this is the only time and the very last time that parliament would have a chance to express an opinion on this subject before the order goes into effect, I suggest that this is an appropriate time to ask for a public debate and to urge upon the government the setting aside of this increase.
I might point out that there is a general ceiling or a general freeze on freight rates, but in the opinion of the board of transport commissioners this general freeze has not applied to the rate in question since they have defined this as an export rate. For these reasons I feel that there is urgency for debate.


Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, I think the question can be answered simply in this way. The order was made by the board of transport commissioners. An appeal was launched to the governor in council. The reasons for judgment on the part of the board of transport commissioners have not yet been delivered to the governor in council, or they had not been delivered at the time of the last inquiry I made. Therefore what is being asked for is a discussion in the house of a matter that falls peculiarly within the authority of the governor in council on appeal. The matter is still sub judice, that being so, Mr. Speaker, I suggest that the motion that has been made is premature and out of order.


Mr. Benidickson:: Mr. Speaker, I have a question-

Freight Rates


Hazen Robert Argue: On the technicality raised by the Prime Minister, Mr. Speaker, may I say this. I have not the statute in front of me, but I am certain I am right and the Miniter of Justice will correct me if I am wrong. Under section 53 of the Railway Act the governor in council, of course, has the power to set aside a freight rate increase following an appeal. But the governor in council of its own initiative also has the authority to set aside any order of the board of transport commissioners. It is because of this authority, apart altogether from whether or not there is an appeal before the cabinet, that I have brought this motion before the house. In my own experience in parliament, we have on many occasions debated the general question of impending freight rate increases following such an announcement.


William Moore Benidickson: Mr. Speaker, my question was to the Prime Minister. Is it possible for the Attorney General for Canada to appeal a judgment by the board of transport commissioners, in this instance to the Supreme Court of Canada?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I cannot say offhand. That would be a legal opinion, and I am unable to answer that question offhand.


Mr. Speaker:: May I ask whether this matter is one which could be discussed under the supplementary estimates, which are the next order of proceedings? There are transport items in the supplementary estimates. I am not sure whether the items are such as would permit reference to this matter, but it would be helpful if I knew.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, I do not know whether you expect me to make a comment on your last observation. The items awaiting consideration by the committee of supply this afternoon in the final supplementary estimates do not appear to me to touch on this question.
In the main estimates there is always an item to provide for the payment of salaries and other expenses of the board of transport commissioners. Matters pertaining to the jurisdiction of the board or orders issued by them are sometimes discussed on the main estimates under that item, if I recall correctly. However, in the present case I do not believe that any reference to this subject would relate to any of the items in the final supplementary estimates.
Perhaps I might add this comment. When the hon. member for Assiniboia talks about such matters having been discussed in the house in times past, it is true that there have been discussions about freight rates in the light of orders issued by the board of
[Mr. Benidickson.)
transport commissioners, but not, in my submission, in cases where an appeal is pending from such an order.
The Railway Act makes provision for two kinds of appeals from an order or decision of the board of transport commissioners. There is an appeal to the Supreme Court of Canada on a question of law or jurisdiction. There is also a right of appeal to the governor in council, which is not restricted to such questions. In the present case the parties have entered an appeal to the governor in council. Therefore this question is now most plainly sub judice.


Mr. Speaker:: I thank the Minister of
Finance and the Prime Minister for their assistance in dealing with the question which has been raised by the hon. member for Assiniboia. The hon. member asks that we interrupt our proceedings today which, as all hon. members know, is the last day of sitting before the Easter adjournment pursuant to an order already made by the house.
There is on the agenda some very important if not essential work for the house to undertake. I should think, therefore, that the hon. member would have to make a very strong case in order to interrupt the proceedings as they have been planned and ordered.
The immediate event which he has suggested raises a matter of urgent and immediate importance is a decision of the board of transport commissioners which will change freight rates on grain moving in an area of Canada between Georgian bay and eastern ports. If I am correct, an appeal has been taken from this order to the governor in council.
It has been suggested that the governor in council is a court and that the matter is sub judice. I am not prepared to accept that argument, but it is perhaps not necessary for me to deal with that question for the purpose of making my present decision. Has the house the right to discuss and consider the transport board's decision before the cabinet exercises its discretion on the appeal? Perhaps I do not have to make a pronouncement on that point and had better leave it as a doubtful submission.
I think on the broader issue the railway freight structure of this country is subject to constant review and change. Orders are made from time to time by the board and it does not seem to me that when any particular order is made it should be the occasion for interrupting the orderly consideration of freight rates in the way that has been prescribed by parliament, namely by the transport board, by appeals, and by debate in parliament as well as by legislation on a

Inquiries of the Ministry
considered basis. Therefore I do not think, the house when an announcement concerning in the circumstances, the rule has been this urgent and important question to veterans satisfied.	can be expected?



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS


[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 96-Mr. Argue:
For a copy of any contract, letter of agreement, correspondence, or other documents, exchanged between the government of Canada and the government of the United Kingdom since January 1, 1956, in relation to the supplying of uranium ore to the United Kingdom.
George Harris Hees: Mr. Speaker, I presume that the documents referred to by the hon. member for Assiniboia as being exchanged between the governments of Canada and the United Kingdom are those which deal with the purchase of uranium concentrates and not, as the question states, uranium ores. Moreover, they were exchanged between Eldorado Mining and Refining Limited and the United Kingdom atomic energy authority and not, as is stated in the question, between the governments of the two countries. If the hon. member will amend the form of his motion to cover that particular correspondence of March, April and May of 1957, I shall be glad to give it further consideration. It would be understood, of course, that the production of these documents would require the prior consent of the other parties to this correspondence.


Mr. Speaker:: Perhaps the more convenient course to follow would be for the hon. member to withdraw his motion and resubmit it.
Order discharged and motion withdrawn.



VETERANS AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. W. Herridge (Kootenay West):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Veterans Affairs. I might say that I think these will be my last words prior to the Easter recess.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I am very glad to make everyone happy at Easter time. In view of the fact that many veterans are anxiously awaiting the government's decision with respect to the reduction of acreage required for small holdings-as an example, one subdivision in Kootenay West of 30 half-acre lots will not be available for veterans if an early decision is not reached-would the minister inform
Hon. Gordon Churchill (Minister of Veterans
Affairs): This question has been raised on several occasions previously. The matter is under review. I hope during the Easter recess to have the opportunity to study a very comprehensive survey that has been made regarding this problem, and will have an early reply for the hon. member.



INQUIRY AS TO DATES OF BY-ELECTIONS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. L. B. Pearson (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Prime Minister whether, before we adjourn for Easter, he will be able to inform the house as to the date of the four pending by-elections?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, the answer is no.



STATEMENT ON ACTIVITIES OF RETURNING OFFICERS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Noël Dorion: Mr. Speaker, the answer to the question put to me yesterday by the hon. member for Burn-aby-Coquitlam is that the chief electoral officer proposes to carry out an annual revision of polling division boundaries each year until the next general election is held.



REPORTED ADDITIONAL SALE TO CZECHOSLOVAKIA

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. N. Ormiston (Melville):: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture. Would the minister comment regarding reports that there have been additional sales of wheat to Czechoslovakia other than the sale which was announced in this house?


Hon. Alvin Hamilton (Minister of Agriculture):: Yes, Mr. Speaker, there has been an additional sale to Czechoslovakia of 100,000 metric tons of wheat on the same terms as those I announced in the house on an earlier occasion. This sale is valued at $8.6 million. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, combined with my earlier announcement, this will mean that approximately 300,000 metric tons or approximately 11 million bushels valued at approximately $25.8 million are involved.

Inquiries of the Ministry LABOUR CONDITIONS



PICTOU, N.S.-REQUEST FOR ORDER FOR RAILWAY CARS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hazen Robert Argue: Mr. Speaker, on Monday last I addressed a question to the Prime Minister in regard to the receipt of the telegram from Robert MacNaughton, president of the united steel workers of America, following a public meeting of residents of Pictou county dealing with unemployment and in particular asking whether the government could seek to obtain an order for the Eastern Car Company to produce railway cars. I wonder if the Prime Minister is in a position to give a reply.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, as I recall it copies of the telegram referred to were addressed to a number of members and ministers. The Minister of Transport replied by telegram, which I might read to give the answer in detail. The telegram reads as follows:
Your telegram March 27 received and representations concerning employment situation arising from public meeting held in Trenton on March 26 have been carefully noted. With regard to the question of railway car orders I might say that following the interview in Ottawa to which you refer I communicated with the Canadian National Railways and the Canadian Pacific Railway company drawing attention particularly to conditions in Pictou county and asked both companies to review their requirements for equipment from the standpoint of assisting the employment situation. Am pleased to say that I have been informed that the Canadian Pacific have tenders out for 1,000 assorted units, and can also advise that Canadian National will be shortly calling for tenders for assorted units totalling approximately 225 cars. Canadian National advise as well that their requirements will be reviewed from time to time in the light of traffic needs.



REGINA-INQUIRY AS TO ARMY INTERVENTION IN LAUNDRY STRIKE

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hazen Robert Argue: Mr. Speaker, I should like to address a question to the Associate Minister of National Defence. In view of the fact that Rainbow Laundry and Dry Cleaners in Regina have been dismissing union members over contract negotiations and a strike has ensued, will the minister inform the house whether the army will respect the picket line and cease delivering laundry to the plant involved?


Hon. Pierre Sevigny (Associate Minister of National Defence):: Mr. Speaker, although the hon. member gave notice earlier today of his intention to ask this questions, for which I thank him, it has not been possible in the time available to obtain the full particulars in this case without which I am unable to give the assurance the hon. member requests.

However, I would say that we do respect at all times the legitimate rights of union members, and it is not one of the functions of the armed services to act to strikebreakers or in any way impede duly authorized and legal actions of any properly qualified labour union.


Hazen Robert Argue: Do I take it from the minister that he will now inquire into the situation and report at a later date?



ROYAL CANADIAN MOUNTED POLICE

[Stage Direction]
WAS SECRET FILE MADE AVAILABLE TO TORONTO NEWSPAPER?
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Paul Hellyer (Trinity):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Justice. Will the minister confirm the statement appearing in last night's edition of the Toronto Daily Star to the effect that a secret R.C.M.P. file on communist subversive activities within Canadian unions was made available to a Toronto newspaper?


Edmund Davie Fulton: No,
Mr. Speaker, I certainly will not confirm that statement. I am advised by the R.C.M.P. that there is no record, and no knowledge on their part, of any files having been shown to any unauthorized person. It is not the policy of the R.C.M.P. or of the government that any official document of any kind be made available to unauthorized persons.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Could the minister say whether it is true that the R.C.M.P. did confirm the accuracy of the details which were published by a Toronto newspaper in respect of alleged undercover activities?


Edmund Davie Fulton: If I understood the question correctly I think the answer would be no, there was no confirmation. I do not know to what article the hon. member refers. I think I had better have a look at the question in Hansard and give a reply later, if it can stand over until after Easter.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Perhaps I could rephrase the question. It is alleged that the newspaper article was given to the R.C.M.P. to check for accuracy before it was published.


Edmund Davie Fulton: By the newspaper?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: The question is, would the R.C.M.P. have checked a newspaper article before publication to verify its accuracy in respect of details contained in private and secret documents?


Edmund Davie Fulton: This seems to me to be a hypothetical question containing a number of allegations, as to the accuracy of which I have to express some doubts.

Inquiries of the Ministry THE CENSUS



AIR TRANSPORT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker, yesterday in answer to a question asked of me the day before by the hon. member for Port Arthur I gave a reply respecting the overhaul work that was alleged to be done outside of the country for Canadian Pacific Air Lines. I am afraid that in my answer yesterday I did not give accurate information. Therefore, in fairness to all concerned, I should say that I have been assured by the president of Canadian Pacific Air Lines that it is the company's practice to do its engine and airframe overhauls in its own plant at Vancouver.
In 1957 a total of three airframe overhauls were accomplished in Hong Kong and Amsterdam. This is a very small proportion of Canadian Pacific Air Lines overhaul requirements. These overhauls were made only because the facilities and personnel to perform this work were not available in Canada at the time.
In fact, according to what the president of Canadian Pacific Air Lines tells me, in order to keep its maintenance and overhaul facilities fully occupied the company ensures wherever possible that in cases where it leases aircraft to a foreign carrier, the aircraft shall be returned to Canada for necessary overhaul work. Such instances involve carriers in Lebanon, France and the United States. The president of C.P.A. points out that the company does not carry out 85 per cent of its overhauls outside of Canada, nor does it require any incentive to do its overhaul work in Canada.



THE BUDGET


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. A. D. Hales (Wellington South):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Finance. Will the minister indicate to the house whether he has yet established a deadline date by which time he hopes to complete hearing delegations making representations in respect of the main budget?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, I hope to complete the hearing of the delegations by the end of next week, April 8.



INQUIRY AS TO RECRUITMENT OF WORKERS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. D. M. Fisher (Port Arthur):: Mr. Speaker, the answer to question 236 regarding the census procedures was so cryptic that I should like to direct another question to the parliamentary secretary. Will the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Trade and Commerce advise members who have requests from constituents regarding census enumerator jobs whether these job requests should be directed to them, to the national employment service or to the local constituency officials of the Progressive Conservative party?


Edmund Leverett Morris: The answer to that is not cryptic at all. The commissioners of each census district are entrusted with the recruitment of enumerators, and members of parliament may send these names to the commissioners.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Are any steps being taken by the department to encourage the employment of university students on this survey this year because of the shortage of jobs for university students in the general economy?


Edmund Leverett Morris: Without agreeing with the qualification that there is a shortage of jobs for university students, university students and all others who are qualified would be encouraged to apply for work as census enumerators. There are very many required, as I said in answer to the question. This time there is no disqualification procedure such as there was before.


George James McIlraith: May I
address a question to the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Trade and Commerce. How many census commissioners have been appointed?


Edmund Leverett Morris: Of the 1,336 required, 1,307 have been appointed.
(Translation):



PRIVILEGE


Mr. Roland English (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Fisheries):: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege. The question of privilege arises out of statements made in this house on March 27, 1961 by the hon. member for Laurier (Mr. Che-vrier). I would like to refer to some of his remarks which can be found on page 3375 of Hansard, and I quote:

Inquiries of the Ministry
(Text):


Mr. Speaker:: Order. Before the parliamentary secretary proceeds perhaps he would indicate why he has not raised this matter earlier. I take it that his question of privilege arises out of something said in the house on Monday, March 27. Was the hon. member not here then, and had it not come to his attention before now?
(Translation):


Roland Léo English: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege because, according to the statement of the hon. member for Laurier, there was a dismissal for political reasons, which affects me-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Roland Léo English: -because it happened in my constituency of Gaspe. I would like to quote part of what was said, Mr. Speaker, and you will see that I am really affected in this matter.
I quote:
Mr. Chairman, I should like to deal with a subject coming under item 167 which deals not only with the civil service commission but with the Department of Transport as well. I am going to try and be as brief as possible in order not to delay this item.
I have here a letter from Riviere-Madeleine. A man named Josephat Ste. Croix, assistant light-keeper on Anticosti island, has been laid off.
That man was not on Anticosti island, but in Gaspe. I must put the facts right.
(Text):


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I think the hon. member will have to come to the point if he wants to continue. If there is a serious reflection on his activities giving rise to a question of privilege, and which stems from the statement made by the hon. member for Laurier on Monday, perhaps he would indicate what reflection on his conduct there is which warrants the time of the house being taken now, at this late date. (Translation):


Roland Léo English: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Laurier has suggested to the house that it was purely a political dismissal, and even in today's issue of La Presse, we find this:
Lightkeeper fired for political reasons.
Mr. Speaker, I wish to state to the house that there were no politics involved, and I feel I have the right to inform the house in this respect.
(Text):


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I think the hon. member is perhaps stretching things to find that it refers to him, because it seems to me what was said was a general statement that there had been political considerations. However, the hon. member has given the assurance he


intended to give to the house, and I expect the matter can be considered to be disposed of.
(Translation):



HISTORICAL SITES AND MONUMENTS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Maurice Johnson (Chambly-Rouville):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources. Could the minister inform the house whether he recently received from the "Societe Historique de la Vallee du Richelieu" or from its chairman, Mr. Leo Leblanc, letters, requests or other representations relating to the restoration of the old fort of Chambly?
(Text):


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for giving me notice of this question. I have had an opportunity to check into the matter. There have been no representations concerning the restoration of old Fort Chambly from "La society historique de la vallee du Richelieu", nor from the chairman of that organization.



NATIONAL DEFENCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Paul Theodore Hellyer: I should like to direct a question to the Associate Minister of National Defence. Following President Kennedy's announcement yesterday of a realignment of the defence policy of the United States, will the minister say whether we can expect a realignment of the defence policy of this country to bring it into conformity with the real situation existing in the world today?


Joseph Pierre Albert Sévigny: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Trinity is quite familiar with the course that has been followed by the Department of National Defence. May I also remind the hon. member that Canada is a sovereign nation and makes its own decisions without being influenced by other nations-


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Since when?

The house is committee of supply, Mr. Rea in the chair.
DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL DEFENCE Mutual aid-
708. Contributions to infrastructure and military costs of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization- further amount required, $740,000.


The Deputy Chairman:: Is the committee ready for the question on the amendment?


Mr. Martin (Timmins):: Mr. Chairman,
before I conclude my few brief remarks on the amendment I should like to turn for a moment to certain statements made by the Minister of Finance last night. As found on page 3445 of Hansard the minister said:
Let me ask the committee to consider one or two facts in this regard. First, think of what Europe was like-*
That is clear proof out of the mouth of the minister himself that although we should be looking ahead with regard to this matter, he is actually looking back ten years. The minister also made another statement with which I should like to take issue at this time. As found at the top of page 3446 he said:
-that Canada can withdraw, live unto herself and take the attitude of a pious nation that has no great concern with the problems of other nations a little closer to the areas of aggression in the world today?
I think this is very unfair on the minister's part. There was nothing in the amendment moved by the hon. member for Assiniboia or in the remarks he made that indicated in any way that the intent of this party is that Canada should withdraw unto itself, as the minister said. The hon. member for Assiniboia stated very clearly and distinctly, and I reiterate, that there is nothing either neutralist or pacifist about the stand of this party on this matter.
There is another point with which I should like to take issue. It is found in the remarks of the Leader of the Opposition, who tried to give the house his interpretation of our intentions. As found on page 3448 of Hansard he said:
That is a far-reaching extension of policy when the party on my right said that they did not want the German republic to take any part in the development of the Atlantic community.
There was nothing in the remarks of the national leader of the C.C.F. party, the hon. member for Assiniboia, that could give rise to such a comment. There was an interjection by one member of this group who objected to the fact that people like Speidel, a former nazi general, were playing such a prominent role in the NATO forces at the present time, but that has nothing to do with the German republic. Apparently this party, unlike the Leader of the Opposition, has just as much suspicion of the nazis as we had 20 years ago when we were fighting. To rectify this distorted version of what the amendment means I should like to deal with it specifically.
What it means is that our concern is not sectional. Ten years ago the situation in the world was such that the world was dominated by two giant powers, and at that time this
Supply-National Defence party fully supported NATO. We took our place where we felt we should be. Today, however, we see a third force growing in the world which is becoming stronger and stronger every day. It is a force of uncommitted nations who do not have too much patience with either of the two giants who dominated the situation ten years ago.
We have noticed, Mr. Chairman, that this new group of emerging nations has strongly resisted any attempt to line upon either side. These uncommitted nations are not in NATO or, in fact, in any other military regional alliance of this sort. These new nations are desperately in need of leadership and assistance, such as a country like Canada can give. This is the reason we moved this amendment. We feel we cannot go on any longer shutting our eyes to the facts of life.
We believe in collective security, but we believe in it on a universal scale such as the United Nations and not on a regional basis such as we have it under NATO. Times change, and we feel that if we are going to keep up with the times we must reappraise our position from time to time. Before I close, I should like to give a brief illustration of just how much times can change. I should like to refer to some excerpts from an address given by Professor Watson Kirk-connell at the 1960 maritime universities student parliament in Halifax. I see the hon. member for Halifax is here, as well as the hon. member for Trinity, and I believe they were both present at the time the professor gave this address.
Professor Kirkconnell was speaking of how times do change and he said:
The vagaries of the press in these matters are aptly satirized by a recent strip in the Chicago
Tribune:
1898: Those bad Spaniards who have bull fights.
1904: Those dirty Russian bullies, jumping on those fine little industrious Japanese.
1914: Those horrible Germans, those fine, friendly, simple-hearted Italians, those helpful Japanese allies.
1941: Those dirty and cruel Germans and Italians, those fine simple, kindly Russians, those nasty Spaniards who are cruel to animals, those fine, dependable, honest Chinese, those heartless and brutal Japanese.
1951: Those dirty grasping Russians, those fine Italians, those brave and hard-working Japanese, those industrious and brave Germans, those fine Spaniards, those treacherous Chinese.
This excerpt shows how quickly things can change, even within a short period of ten years. We would like to restate that this amendment does not represent a negative move so far as we are concerned. We feel that this is the only right, positive move that we can make today if Canada is going to take its proper place in world affairs.

Supply-Privy Council
Amendment (Mr. Argue) negatived: Yeas, 5; nays, 91.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
DEPARTMENT OP NORTHERN AFFAIRS AND NATIONAL RESOURCES Water resources branch-
715. Construction of a fishway on the Yukon river at the site of the hydroelectric power development being constructed by the Northern Canada Power Commission for the Whitehorse area, $5,290.
Paul Theodore Hellyer: I wonder, Mr. Chairman, if the minister could tell us what type of fish there are in the river, and whether they are commercial fish or game fish for which these facilities are being provided?


Donald Methuen Fleming: I am told that the fish is salmon and it is commercial fishing so far as the Indians are concerned.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
719.	Transportation-movement of mail by land, air and water, including administration-further amount required, $1,232,000.
Douglas Mason Fisher: I should like an explanation of this vote.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Vote 719 embraces two items of additional amounts required to meet expenses arising out of (a) new services and extension of mail services by land, $1,070,000; (b) increased volume of domestic and international mail carried by air, $162,000. The total amount is $1,232,000.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Special-
720.	Expenses of the royal commission on railway problems-further amount required, $10,800.
Paul Theodore Hellyer: Can the minister tell us when the report of the commission is likely to be available?


Donald Methuen Fleming: I have no information to add to that imparted to the house within recent days by the Prime Minister in reply to a similar question.


Douglas Mason Fisher: We have the promise of both an interim report and a final report by this royal commission. I should like very much to know when the final report of the royal commission is likely to be available rather than the interim report.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I cannot add anything to the answer I just gave to the hon. member for Trinity.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Chairman, we were informed in the house some months ago that during the period which had been established


by legislation for the postponement of the railway strike, the royal commission dealing with this matter, and the one we are discussing now, would make a report. I believe the report was expected by the end of March, and that report was to contain a recommendation which would make possible, it was hoped, the solution of the dispute which nearly brought about a strike last December.
What the committee would like to know is this: Will the interim report which the Prime Minister stated would be available in the early part of April contain a recommendation bearing on this dispute which would make possible a solution of this problem before the end of the period established by law within which a strike is not possible? Can the minister throw any light on that?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Chairman, the committee is aware of the questions that have been asked on this subject, and the answers that have been given to those questions by the Prime Minister. The Leader of the Opposition is referring to a statement made in the house by the Prime Minister several months ago and in which he indicated that the information conveyed to him by the chairman of the royal commission was to the effect that the report of the commission would be tendered by the end of March. Further follow-up questions have been asked on this subject more recently and the Prime Minister has answered those questions. The last answer was given, as I recall it, within the last ten days. In it he indicated that a report was expected from the commission I think within a few days from this time. I think I can give the Leader of the Opposition the reference to the Prime Minister's answer.


Lester Bowles Pearson: I remember the answer.


Donald Methuen Fleming: At page 3126 of Hansard of March 20 the Prime Minister is reported as having said this:
I am now advised by the assistant secretary to the royal commission that the chairman, Mr. Mac-Pherson, has stated that the first volume of the findings of the royal commission on transportation will be available early in April.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Mr. Chairman, I should like at this time to make some comments on this royal commission and its work. I have been bitterly disappointed, as one very much interested in transportation problems, in the way in which this commission has been conducted. I say this not as any criticism of the members of the commission or of the secretariat. However, we have a most paradoxical situation. The government is waiting for a report because this report is to give us a solution for a management-labour crisis. Yet

at the very first hearing when the commission was starting here in Ottawa I was a spectator and 1 noted that at this hearing it was made clear that the royal commission was going to keep completely away from the problem of railway labour.
We get all kinds of ironies and paradoxes. We have had one very recently in connection with the uranium industry. Here we have an almost classic one, namely that of a royal commission that on its very first day deliberately eschewed any responsibility or any interest regarding the labour side of railway problems. Yet we are waiting for their report as the solution or the advice to the government by means of which to get us out of one of the worst labour-management snafu's we have had in Canadian railways.
It seems to me that this was most unfair to the commission because, from my observation of the commission during its earlier hearings and through following the evidence, I believe that the decision to keep labour matters out of the commission sittings was taken at the advice of the executive. Here we have a commission that started with one complete part of railway operations outside of its jurisdiction; and the other even more contentious issue, namely that of the Crowsnest pass rates, was deliberately ruled out as an issue more specifically by the Prime Minister in his statement in which he set up the commission. Yet while facing one of the worst crises that the railways have had in Canada not only with regard to freight rates but with a strike deadline on May 15, we are waiting with bated breath for a report by a commission that has deliberately stayed away from labour problems.
I feel that very rarely have royal commissioners been put or placed themselves in such a peculiar position. I was critical right at the start of the number of people who were on this commission. The royal commission a decade ago was concentrated really in three men. This commission has been larger and it seems to me that an almost impossible burden has been placed upon these commissioners over the period since they got started. It seems to me that such an unwieldy group of commissioners makes it very difficult to hope for coherent and consistent reports. I do not know whether we shall have minority reports from the commission. However, it seems to me that this is an example of the wrongful use of a royal commission. The report and the use that government indicates it is going to make of it-that is as some kind of solution to the problem-can only be an interim one since obviously this commission did not deal with the whole range of railway or transportation problems that was dealt with by the royal
Supply-Privy Council commission a decade ago. Anyone of us looking back at that old royal commission will agree that in the majority or minority reports or special memoranda prepared by Dr. Angus and Dr. Innis, we have an insight into and a conception of our railway problems a decade ago that were most useful to everyone. I do not see how we can possibly get them from this particular royal commission.
I should just like to underline the fact that we have perhaps the worst railway crisis of our history facing us within a month or a month and a half and everything about it seems to hinge upon this royal commission report. When we had the maintenance of operation bill here before us early in December the Prime Minister indicated that negotiations were going to continue in the interim and that strenuous efforts were going to be made to solve the deadlock. Instead, at least according to word from the people in the unions, no progress at all has been made. Negotiations in effect are a dead issue at the present time. The railways are hard and fast in the position in which they were last December and so are the unions. So far as we know the government has been waiting all this time for this royal commission interim report that has not yet been received. It seems to me that on a domestic issue this is brinkmanship of a kind that we should not expect from a government that has had three years in which to survey transportation problems.
There is nothing we can do at this time to express our displeasure at or our low opinion of this kind of approach to transportation problems. However, I feel that we in our party should express right now what is almost our dismay at what we are faced with in the transportation field within the next six weeks and the complete lack of any indication as to how we are going to get out of it on any kind of reasonable basis.


Charles Edward Rea: Shall vote 720 carry?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Chairman, I think the hon. member for Port Arthur has made a strong case for a statement from the minister which will, as he hopes, throw some light on this extremely important and indeed extremely dangerous situation; and one which is, so far as we know, completely frozen having regard to relations between the railways and the workers. No doubt one reason why it is frozen is that we were told that it could not be unfrozen until this royal commission had made a report in which would be included recommendations which might be effective in dealing with this matter.
As my hon. friend has just pointed out this is a royal commission which told us
3486	HOUSE OF
Supply-Privy Council earlier that it was not going to deal with this specific matter. I think we should ask the minister whether the royal commission since that time has been requested to deal with this matter in such a way that it might be able to produce recommendations or proposals which will have a bearing on the solution of this situation which will confront us again, I believe, on May 15th.
That is one question. The other is that in this interim report, the first report which has been promised for early in April-and the Prime Minister referred to this in his statement the other day-might be nothing more than a progress report. We do not know. It would be very useful indeed to get some assurance that this first report is not merely to be a formal progress report but is to include in it provisions, recommendations or proposals which will have a bearing on this group and which can be used in a way which will avoid the possibility of a crippling strike on May 15 when the legislation passed last December for preventing such a strike comes to an end.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Chairman, the committee is well acquainted with the terms of reference of this royal commission. It was a royal commission appointed to investigate the inequities in the freight rate structure. There were also other matters referred to the commission, such as the possibilities of achieving more economical and efficient railway transportation, whether and to what extent the Railway Act should specify that the assets and earnings of railway companies in businesses and investments other than railways should be taken into account in establishing freight rates, and related questions.
Without going back over the ground that was thoroughly traversed in a debate on a government bill in this house several months ago during the present session, I remind hon. members that it was because of the fact that the royal commission is dealing with something that is of the utmost importance to the whole question of railway revenues that it has such a direct relationship to the ability of the railways to meet the demands of employees for increased earnings. That was the relationship.
It is not necessary, if I may say so, to belabour the commission for not entering into this labour dispute. That was not a subject referred to the royal commission and they could not properly have considered it. The subject referred to them is related to railway freight revenues; it was the companies that took the position that they required additional revenues, that they simply could not meet the demands.


In the face of this situation it pleased parliament to pass certain legislation in expectation that the report, when received, would have a direct bearing on this question of the revenue position of the railways.
I think the whole matter is fully understood. I believe we are in very grave danger at the moment of going back and trespassing on the debate which took place at an earlier stage of the present session, after which debate the house passed certain legislation.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Mr. Chairman, would the minister then agree that the title "royal commission on railway problems" is a bit of a misnomer and that this might have been called a royal commission on railway revenues or a royal commission on freight rates, but hardly a royal commission on railway problems in the general sense?
I say this because surely the toughest problem facing the railways and their employees today is the question of some kind of a standard for the employees' wages.
I remember the reason, excuse or apology given for the royal commission not going into labour problems. It was that negotiations were taking place between the managements and the union. One of the reasons given was that the royal commission would be entering into something that was being negotiated.
I should like to point out to the minister that the last royal commission on transportation did try to come up with some idea of a yardstick that could be used for railway employees. In so far as the Milvain hearings and report are concerned, I imagine the C.N.R. and C.P.R. spent pretty close to $200,000 trying to introduce, through a study made by Woods Gordon, a comparability of wage rates and job classifications between railway workers and comparable workers in other industries.
As it happened, their whole approach was dynamited. The Woods Gordon report was in effect practically laughed out of the hearings. In his report, Mr. Justice Milvain dismisses it very curtly in a few sentences. It is intriguing to me that so much money was paid to this great consulting firm in order to produce this report.
I insist that this is the key to railway problems at the present time. It is not the question of freight rates, and it is really not the over-all question of revenue. It is, what kind of yardstick are we going to apply for railway labour? It is apparent that unless we change our whole conception of railways in Canada, very many jobs performed by the railways are not going to be remunerative, in the normal revenue sense, in comparison with any kind of private enterprise on a competitive basis. I wish to underline

that we are not going to come to any practical solution from this royal commission on the real problem that we face at the present time.
I do not wish to take up any more time on this matter, but I should just like to point out to all hon. members of the committee that we are going to be faced with a crisis period when we get back here after Easter, and it will concern transportation problems. What always happens, and what I am afraid of, is that when the threat of a strike hangs over the country the people who are going to get it in the neck are the railway workers, because the antipathy to strikes as a whole hides the fact that the railway workers have a real case for an adjusment in their wage rates.
I think this fact needs to be pointed out. I hope the railway workers themselves will tighten up their discipline, and improve their solidarity and will be prepared to face a strike on May 15, despite the fact that in the crisis period after we return we will go into these problems and there is no doubt that public opinion will be worked up so as to place railway workers in an invidious position.
I am sorry to have spoken so long, Mr. Chairman, but it seems to me we are going to land back here with a really big problem in our laps, and I think the people who are going to take the real kicking on it

and we should have sympathy and consideration for them-are the railway workers, largely as a result of an inactive and ineffective government policy on railways.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Chairman, I do not wish to hold up this matter, but I have one final observation to make. The hon. member who has just spoken has said that unless this problem of transportation which faces us is solved shortly we will indeed be facing a major crisis, because the deadline date is May 15 and we will soon be in April.
We on this side of the chamber are not belabouring the royal commission, as my hon. friend the Minister of Finance suggests, it is the government which has burdened the royal commission with certain responsibilities related to this labour dispute. These are responsibilities which the royal commission certainly did not anticipate when it was set up. This has been done by the government itself in connection with the dispute of last autumn, which was temporarily settled, but only temporarily, by legislation.
During the discussion of that legislation the Prime Minister himself said that all that was being done was to postpone the strike, and no rights were being denied anybody.
In the discussion on November 30 the Prime Minister is reported as having said:
There is a postponement-
90205-6-219
Supply-Privy Council
It is only a postponement-
-because of the action of the government to preserve the equality of all parts of Canada-
That is, with respect to freight rates:
-until equalization has been provided for as a result of the recommendations of the royal commission.
There it is. The royal commission has been given that responsibility. We are entitled to ask, and we do ask whether in this first report-it may be the only report before May 15, in all likelihood it will be the only report made before that date-recommendations will be made, as stated by the Prime Minister, to provide for equality of all parts of Canada. If that is not the case, then how is this matter going to be provided for, as the Prime Minister said it would be provided for, before the date of May 15 after which, if no solution is found meanwhile, a strike can take place?


Donald Methuen Fleming: I cannot say what will be the precise contents of the report. It will be received in due course, as the Prime Minister has indicated. I think that would be the proper time, when all hon. members have the report and have perused it, to discuss the contents of the report and whatever recommendations it may contain.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
722.	Expenses of the royal commission on the Great Slave Lake Railway-further amount required, $2,150.
Lester Bowles Pearson: I wonder whether the minister would give us some information about the work of this royal commission on the Great Slave Lake Railway for which we are asked to make a further appropriation? Is this work completed?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Yes, the work is completed and this small sum is required to pay the final accounts.


Lester Bowles Pearson: The work then has been completed and the recommendations have been made by the royal commission, and the minister says that this item is needed to tidy up the expenses of that commission. May I ask whether any decision has been taken by the government regarding the recommendations made by that royal commission as to the route of this railroad?


Donald Methuen Fleming: That information will be fully given to the house in due course.


Mr. Baldwin:: I would like to take just one moment to say, in respect of the recommendations, that I was up in this country just recently and am pleased to advise the committee that there is at the present time a full location survey taking place, and that

Supply-Secretary of State promptly following the commission's recommendation they were implemented. After the estimates in this regard had been passed last December, survey parties commenced working in the area and I understand that the information gathered at that time confirmed the reports of the commission and the action of the government in implementing the commission's recommendation.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Public printing and stationery-
723.	Printing of Canada Gazette-further amount required, $17,000.
Paul Theodore Hellyer: I wonder whether the minister could tell us if this increased cost is due to a greater number of orders in council that had to be printed?


Donald Methuen Fleming: No, there was more printing cost.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
724.	Printing and binding the annual statutes -further amount required, $3,000.
Paul Theodore Hellyer: In respect to this item I wonder whether the minister could say whether the additional amount required is due to an increase in cost or to an increase in laws passed?


Donald Methuen Fleming: It is due to an
increase in cost because of the increased volume of printing of statutes passed.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
725.	Reimbursement of the Queen's printer's advance account for the value of stores which have become obsolete, unserviceable, lost or destroyed, $41,467.
Douglas Mason Fisher: I think we should have a little more information than is contained in the details of this particular item. I think I understand how this is done but could we have some details as to the type of material that has become obsolete, lost or destroyed?


Donald Methuen Fleming: This is an annual write-off item. The sum involved here is $41,467 and is made up of the following items to be written off inventory as obsolete or unserviceable, and there are five of them. The first is the Winnipeg printing unit, substore No. 653, $41.01. The second is purchasing, procurement and stores-Hull, inventory No. 112, $28,356.69. The third is the Edmonton printing unit, $352.98. The next item is the outside printing production branch, St. Patrick street, Ottawa, inventory No. 663, $10,268.43, and the last item is procurement purchasing and stores, Hull maintenance store No. 620, $4,488.11, totalling $43,507.22.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Two or three of these items seem to be fairly substantial. I do not have


the figures here to check, but could the minister indicate whether this write-off is about average for a year or is higher than normal?


Donald Methuen Fleming: This figure fluctuates materially from year to year. In the fiscal year 1956-57 the amount of this item was $123,326. That was unusually high but there was a fire at the Edmonton operations that year, and two other items as well were involved. In 1958-59 the figure was $14,573, so it is quite clear that this fluctuates from year to year.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I can understand that forms which go out of date from year to year are destroyed, such as the census forms which were printed and then superseded because of protests by hon. members from the province of Quebec, but could the minister tell us if most of this loss or destruction is related to forms, or printed material such as actual publications?


Donald Methuen Fleming: I am informed that this item embraces stores and equipment, and included in the write-off are forms that have become out of date and are no longer in use.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Would the added expense of printing new census forms and the destruction of the old be included in this item or would it come under a departmental item?


Donald Methuen Fleming: I am informed that the cost of the new census forms does not enter into this present item.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC WORKS Public buildings construction and services- Construction, acquisition, major repairs and improvements of, and plans and sites for, public buildings listed in the details of the estimates, provided that treasury board may increase or decrease the amount within the vote to be expended on individual listed projects,-further amounts required-
726.	Nova Scotia, $1.
Douglas Mason Fisher: I would like to know in each of these cases in which constituency the particular structure is?


Donald Methuen Fleming: In regard to item No. 726, the location of the post office is at Bras d'Or. I do not have the information regarding the relationship of the locations of these various works to federal or other constituencies, but perhaps if I give the hon. member the geographic locations he will be able to relate them to the constituencies.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I just wanted to make sure that they were all located in constituencies represented by members supporting the government. I looked hopefully to find if some

of them were located in constituencies represented by opposition members.


Donald Methuen Fleming: The building in item 726 is located in Nova Scotia. The building in item 727 is located in Manitoba, and I am happy to say that there are none but government members from those two provinces. The building in 728 is located in Saskatchewan and unless it happens to be located in the riding of Assiniboia I think it would be a safe inference that it is located in a riding worthily represented by a supporter of the government.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I would like to point out to the minister that the ratio of opposition members to government members is roughly one in four, and I hoped surely one in four of these locations would fall in a constituency represented by an opposition member, by the rules of the game, but I can perhaps assume that the minister of this particular department did not receive representations from opposition members regarding these extra estimates.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I can assure the hon. member that the government proceeds according to need of the buildings and not with regard to those extraneous considerations to which he has adverted.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National capital commission-
731. Interest charges on outstanding loans that were made for the purpose of acquiring property in the national capital region-further amount required, $140,000.
George James McIlraith: I would like to ask one or two questions about this item. The particulars carried on page 25 of the supplementary estimates read as follows:
Deficiency resulting from a short-fall in estimated revenues from the rental of properties and interest income-
I wonder whether the minister would give us the rate of interest paid on these loans? I presume they are loans from the government. Then, will the minister give us any information he may have available as to how it happens that there is what appears to be a large deficiency in the rentals?


Donald Methuen Fleming: The rate of interest on these loans varies from 4 per cent up to 5J per cent.
As to the second question, may I point out that the deficiency which this item is intended to cover does not arise out of any increase in the interest charge to be made but out of a disappointment in the revenues from rentals which are applied as against the interest. These rentals are from properties in the hands of the national capital commis-90205-6-2191
Supply-Transport
si on. This year they were estimated at $311,000. It is now estimated that they will yield only $163,000.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
ROYAL CANADIAN MOUNTED POLICE Land, air and training divisions-
732. Operation and maintenance-further amount required, $224,500.
Mr. Brassard (Lapointe):: I have just one question on this item. Can the minister give us a breakdown on the increase, or at least some reasons for the increase shown in this item?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Yes, Mr. Chairman, with pleasure. There are four items which compose the total of $224,500. First, there are the increases in medical rates effective August 1, 1960, and an increase in the number of members receiving medical and dental services from the Department of Veterans Affairs. That amounts to $70,000.
Second, there is the increased requirement for removal expenses owing to a change in the marriage regulations. The removal expenses amount to $100,000; third, freight, express and cartage, $30,400; fourth, sundry investigation expenses, $24,200, making a total of $224,500.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORT Marine services-
Aids to navigation-
738. Administration, operation and maintenance -further amount required, $46,130.
Douglas Mason Fisher: Can the minister tell the committee whether any of these extra expenditures are going into the great lakes system?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Chairman, this sum of $46,130 is the balance required for the removal of three derelicts. I do not think the hon. member wants to claim one of those for his area. One of them was removed from Montreal harbour, another from Midland harbour and a third from a government wharf at New Campbellton, Nova Scotia.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Railway and steamship services-
741. Canadian National Railways deficit, 1960_
amount required to provide for payment to the Canadian National Railway Company (hereinafter called the national company) upon applications approved by the Minister of Transport, made by the national company to the Minister of Finance, and to be applied by the national company in payment of the system deficit (certified by the auditors of the national company) arising in the calendar year 1960, subject to recovery therefrom of accountable advances made to the national company from the consolidated revenue fund. $67,496,777.
[Stage Direction]
Supply-Transport
Douglas Mason Fisher: Mr. Chairman, this is a staggering sum. Surely we should not pass it without at least some comment or explanation. Can the minister indicate to us what was the projected deficit last year as compared with the actual deficit?


Donald Methuen Fleming: The 1959 deficit was $43.6 million. Last year the C.N.R. deficit was $67.5 million, which represents an increase of $23.9 million.


Douglas Mason Fisher: As I recall the railway practice, some indication is given by the president of the railway as to what the picture is going to be in the next year. I want to know whether this $67 million deficit is high or low?


Donald Methuen Fleming: It is very high.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Has the minister any explanation of this other than that we can turn to the annual report of the president?


Donald Methuen Fleming: The annual report has recently been tabled, Mr. Chairman. In it the president draws attention to the contraction in the volume of railway freight business.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Can the minister give us assurance that the government brings this forward without any hesitation and generally approves of the management of the railway which has resulted in a deficit of this size?


Donald Methuen Fleming: All I can say is
that the deficit has been incurred; there can be no question about that, and it must be paid. Therefore, we are asking parliament to make provision for the payment. The deficit in question has been incurred.


Douglas Mason Fisher: The minister would not care to comment on whether the government is satisfied with the actual level of the deficit; that nothing could have been done in the past year to make the deficit lower?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Naturally, Mr. Chairman, the extraordinarily large size of this deficit is a matter of very keen disappointment alike to the management of the railway and to the government. It is substantially more than the management had anticipated when they furnished an estimate to me a year ago. It was one of the elements entering into my forecast of the budgetary position of the government for the present fiscal year, and when I brought in the supplementary budget on December 20 I drew attention to the fact that one of the factors which had disappointed my hopes of a balanced budget, with a modest surplus, and turned those hopes into the certainty of a budgetary deficit this year, was this matter of the C.N.R. deficit.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Does this not raise in the minister's mind the question of the efficiency of the management of this particular concern?


Donald Methuen Fleming: No one can view this large deficit without being concerned about the whole operation. This is not to say, however, that the responsibility for the deficit should be attributed to some mismanagement. The fact is that the Canadian National Railways are expected to carry on operations on a very large scale and, in the face of a contraction of railway freight, it is not possible for railways quickly to adjust their budgetary position. There is a good deal of inflexibility in our railway structure in Canada. The companies operating railways are not in a position to make quick adjustments to meet the financial situations that they face in consequence of fluctuations in the volume of railway traffic.
In this particular case the management has suffered a disappointment in its hopes and indeed in its forecast of its operating position for 1960. They did expect a very much better result when they surveyed the situation in 1960 and made their first estimate of the probable results of operations.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Perhaps I could just close my remarks by saying I am sure the minister would not mind me at least expressing my doubts about the efficiency of the management of the Canadian National Railways in the light of this deficit.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Will the minister say whether the government has in mind any plans to merge the two railway systems?


Donald Methuen Fleming: I am sorry, I did not catch the first part of the hon. member's question.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Can the minister say whether the government has any plans ultimately to merge the two railway systems in Canada?


Donald Methuen Fleming: No, Mr. Chairman. I may say with regard to this subject in general that, as usual, this matter will be before a sessional committee and the officials of the Canadian National Railways will be appearing before that committee to answer questions on the 1960 operations.
(Translation):


Mr. Deschatelets:: Mr. Chairman, may I take only a few moments of the time of the house, under item 741 of the supplementary estimates, to say a few words on a matter that was raised by the hon. member for Laurier (Mr. Chevrier) on March 13 last. It dealt with the 160 C.N.R. employees who will be laid off shortly unless the Minister of Transport (Mr. Balcer) makes less timid

representations than he has made so far, in order that these employees, which include some older people, will not be thrown out of a job following the vacating by the C.N.R. of two buildings that have been sold to the government of the province of Quebec.
If unemployment is everyone's responsibility, the Minister of Transport in this case has a moral responsibility to make every effort to prevent the lay-off of these 160 employees.
I leave it at that for the time being, but we shall be watching closely what the minister will do for these workers, and I hope the Minister of Transport will see that they are protected and are not thrown out on the street.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Chairman,
that is a matter that the committee of the house will have an opportunity to consider.
(Text):


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
General-
743. Trans-Canada Air Lines deficit, 1960-amount required to provide for payment to Trans-Canada Air Lines (hereinafter called the company) upon applications approved by the Minister of Transport, made by the company to the Minister of Finance, and to be applied by the company in payment of the deficit (certified by the auditors of the company) arising in the calendar year 1960, subject to recovery therefrom of accountable advances made to the company from the consolidated revenue fund, $2,607,350.
Paul Theodore Hellyer: Can the minister say to what extent the deficit shown here was due to the competition from the once-a-day flights of Canadian Pacific Air Lines?


Donald Methuen Fleming: I do not think one can isolate any one factor in this regard to connect it with the results of the year's operations. The fact is that Trans-Canada Air Lines anticipated a deficit this year of $2J million. It proved to be slightly larger relatively. The figure is $2,607,350.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Can the minister make a distinction between the forecast on the railroad side and the forecast in the case of Trans-Canada Air Lines? He has pointed out that Mr. McGregor's forecast was much closer to accuracy than that put forward by Mr. Gordon. The minister indicated earlier that the impact of economic circumstances explained the disappointing results in the case of the C.N.R. Can we take it that economic circumstances were less hard upon Trans-Canada Air Lines? If there is a recession one would assume it would affect both modes of transportation. I just wondered what reason the minister would give for the difference in the accuracy of the forecasts.
Supply-Transport


Donald Methuen Fleming: It is very hard to be precise in these matters. I am sure management, alike of Canadian National Railways and Trans-Canada Air Lines, did their best to make an accurate forecast both of operating revenues and operating expenses when the budgets for the two companies were prepared and submitted early in 1960. The operating revenues of Trans-Canada Air Lines were about $4 million less than the budget anticipated. The operating expenses, including depreciation, were about $2 million less and the interest payable was about $2.2 million less than anticipated in the budget.


Mr. Carter:: Mr. Chairman, I am getting a little tired of the aspersions that the hon. member for Port Arthur is making against Mr. Gordon. I have no brief for Mr. Gordon, but I believe in fair play and certainly the answer to the question that he asked the minister should be within his understanding.
I should like to elaborate on what the minister has said. It is well known to everyone that Trans-Canada Air Lines gets most of its revenue from carrying passengers while the revenue of Canadian National Railways comes mostly from the carriage of freight traffic. With the slowdown in our economy there has been a falling off in traffic, and I should think that accounts mainly for the difference in the forecasts between Trans-Canada Air Lines and Canadian National Railways.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
744. Reimbursement of Department of Transport stores account for the value of stores which have become obsolete, unserviceable, lost or destroyed, $62,514.
Paul Theodore Hellyer: Will the minister indicate the nature of the stores referred to in this item?


Donald Methuen Fleming: The list includes stores that were written off as obsolete or unserviceable totalling $52,569. This includes telecommunication spare parts, automotive spare parts, paints, metal and castings, food, printing and stationery forms, general hardware, plumbing supplies, electrical equipment and miscellaneous. Then there were some smaller amounts of losses. There was a writeoff on stocktaking of $3,360.45, a further loss of $2,607.03 on account of thefts or other causes and, finally, stores destroyed to the value of $3,976.72.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: I should like to ask the minister whether he thinks it would be practical to include some of this basic information in the details of these votes. If he will consult what purport to be the details he will find that exactly the same information is given as is listed under the item. It seems

Supply-Transport
rather wasteful and redundant to print details when the information given is no different from that contained under the item itself. I would ask the minister if it would be possible to alter the practice and, if not, what the purpose is in printing details.


Donald Methuen Fleming: The question of the form of the estimates is receiving study on the part of the committee on public accounts. The present form of the estimates, and this applies particularly to the main estimates, dates back about ten years. With respect to the point raised by the hon. member for Trinity, the estimates simply follow the form which has been in effect now for ten years. This matter is being studied in the public accounts committee and, as I have some responsibility in relation to the form in which estimates are presented to the house, I can assure the committee of my wish to co-operate fully with the public accounts committee.


Mr. Cardin:: Can the minister inform the committee whether it is the practice of the government to make these obsolete stores available for sale through Crown Assets Corporation?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Yes, Mr. Chairman. Any that have any value, of course, are disposed of through Crown Assets Corporation. We are only too glad to realize something on them when they have any value.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Civil aviation branch-
746. Control of civil aviation including the administration of the Aeronautics Act and Regulations issued thereunder-further amount required, $58,000.
Douglas Mason Fisher: Mr. Chairman, we have heard a great deal lately, although I do not believe the matter has been the subject of discussion in the house, about the inability of the Department of Transport through this branch, I believe, to collect revenue from a number of international carriers to whom services are provided through various facilities under the control of the civil aviation branch. So far there has been no indication that this money is going to be collectible. I just wonder if the minister is in a position to give us any kind of report on this situation, and whether it is costing the department a considerable amount of money and effort, in terms of the service of its employees, to track down these people.


Donald Methuen Fleming: This subject, Mr. Chairman, at the present time is undergoing study by the international air transportation association. Beyond that I really cannot go at the present time. This item, of course, relates to the provision of funds for increased

travelling expenses, hangar rentals at Malton airport and training for inspectors of civil aviation.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
747. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment-to extend the purposes of vote 446 of the main estimates, 1960-61, to provide authority to charge to that vote the cost of lands purchased by means of loans provided for the acquisition of land required to control properties in the vicinity of main terminal airports in order to prevent the erection of hazards to flying and for future development of new and existing main terminal airports including facilities for relieving congestion thereat, $1.
Douglas Mason Fisher: Mr. Chairman, I should like to shout "author", here if I were permitted to do so. I should like to know who is the author of the item which reads:
To extend the purposes of vote 446 of the main estimates, 1960-61, to provide authority to charge to that vote the cost of lands purchased by means of loans provided for the acquisition of land required to control properties in the vicinity of main terminal airports in order to prevent the erection of hazards to flying and for future development of new and existing main terminal airports including facilities for relieving congestion thereat.
Perhaps the minister would give us an interpretation of that item.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I am told, Mr. Chairman, that the author of this composition is the solicitor to the treasury.


Douglas Mason Fisher: What does it mean?


Donald Methuen Fleming: This item is one in which I am not asking for any additional money. It is one of these one dollar items. What is sought is the extension of the terms of the vote contained in the Appropriation Act so as to include new services that were not previously covered. The vote in the main estimates was No. 491, which authorized loans up to $3 million to be used for the acquisition of lands to prevent the erection of hazards to flying in connection with future airport development. This is an annual item and has been in the estimates each year since the fiscal year 1954-55, when the major airport construction program was started. At the moment, land to a total value of more than $1 million is on the asset side of the balance sheet. It is proposed to transfer to current account the cost of these lands which were initially purchased through the loans account and which it is not intended to resell. It is for this purpose that this legislative authority is required.
As I say, there is no money involved beyond the nominal one dollar. It is a matter of providing legislative authority for the transfer of these lands to the current account.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

Canadian maritime commission-
750. Steamship subventions for coastal services, as detailed in the estimates-further amount required, $692,779.
Douglas Mason Fisher: Mr. Speaker, I should like to know whether this amount is to subsidize the ferry from Yarmouth, Nova Scotia, to Rockland, Maine, and does it refer to the ship, City of Havana?


Donald Methuen Fleming: No, Mr. Chairman, it relates to the motor vessel Bluenose.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I understand the Nova Scotia government is considering requesting subsidies for the three summer months for a service to supplement the service provided by the Bluenose on this particular run. I understand, further, that the ship in question is a foreign owned ship, the City of Havana,
I just wondered whether or not the fact that this amount is in the estimates would indicate that no request came to the federal government for support for this ferry, the City of Havana'!


Donald Methuen Fleming: I do not know about the City of Havana by name, but this item of $6,000 is payable to the contractor, Himmelman Supply Company Limited, for supplying transportation between Yarmouth and Rockland, Maine, for the carriage of fish, mainly lobsters, while the ferry service from Yarmouth to Bar Harbor was suspended during the annual refit of the Bluenose.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
754. Treatment and other allowances-further amount required, $50,000.
Paul Theodore Hellyer: I wish to draw to the atten-iton of the committee the necessity, in considering this item, to consider the revision of the War Veterans Allowance Act. The changes which were recently made in the Pensions Act have resulted in pensioners being cut off from the supplements provided by the war veterans allowance and, worse than that, these pensioners no longer receive certain medical benefits which were previously available to them.
I should like to suggest that the committee urge upon the government an early reconsideration of the War Veterans Allowance Act so that these people, who in many cases are very much in need, will receive proper consideration.


Mr. Winkler:: I should like to say to the committee that this suggestion was made on numerous occasions during the consideration of the amendments to the Pensions Act.
Canadian and British Insurance Act If one refers to Hansard, one will find that this request was made by most hon. members who spoke.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Resolutions adopted in committee of supply this day reported and concurred in.

[Stage Direction]
The house in committee of ways and means, Mr. Rea in the chair.
["I have the honour to inform the house that I have received the following c ommunication:\nGovernment House, Ottawa, 29th March, 1961\nSir:\nI have the honour to inform you that the Honourable Patrick Kerwin, Chief Justice of Canada, acting as Deputy of His Excellency the Governor General, will proceed to the Senate chamber today, the 29th March, at 5.45 p.m., for the purpose of giving the royal assent to certain bills.\nI have the honour to be, sir,\nYour obedient servant,\nE. Joly De Lotbiniere\nAssistant Secretary to the Governor General\n\nA message was delivered by Major C. R. Lamoureux, Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod, as follows:\nMr. Speaker, the Honourable the Deputy Governor General desires the immediate attendance of this honourable house in the chamber of the honourable the Senate.\nAccordingly, Mr. Speaker with the house went up to the Senate chamber.\nAnd being returned:\nMr. Speaker informed the house that the Deputy Governor General had been pleased to give, in Her Majesty's name, the royal assent to the following bills:\nAn act to incorporate International Brain Research Organization.\nAn act to amend the Fire Losses Replacement Account Act.\nAn act to amend the Tariff Board Act.\nRoyal Assent\nAn act respecting Canadian Pacific Railway Company.\nAn act to amend the Coastal Fisheries Protection Act.\nAn act to amend the Income Tax Act.\nAn act to incorporate Canadian Pioneer Insurance Company.\nAn act respecting Canadian General Insurance Company.\nAn act to amend the Canadian and British Insurance Companies Act.\nAn act to amend the Foreign Insurance Companies Act.\nAn act for granting to Her Majesty certain sums of money for the public service for the financial year ending the 31st March, 1962.\nAn act for granting to Her Majesty certain sums of money for the public service for the financial year ending the 31st March, 1961.\nAt 6.30 p.m. the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to special order, until Monday, April 10.", 'Questions']
Donald Methuen Fleming: Resolved, that towards making good the supply granted to Her Majesty on account of certain expenses of the public service for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1961, the sum of $182,230,741 be granted out of the consolidated revenue fund.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Resolution reported and concurred in.
Mr. Fleming (Eglinton) thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. C-80, for granting to Her Majesty certain sums of money for the public service for the fiscal year ending the 31st March, 1961.
Motion agreed to, bill read the first and second times, considered in committee, reported, read the third time and passed.
['Resolved, that towards making good the supply granted to Her Majesty on account of certain expenses of the public service for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1961, the sum of $182,230,741 be granted out of the consolidated revenue fund.']
Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, will you allow me to thank the house and the committee of supply for the co-operation that has been extended to this measure today by all hon. members. The proceedings could not have been carried to a conclusion without the co-operation of all hon. members in all parts of the house. I should just like to say that the adoption of the bill today, assuming that it is adopted in another place and receives royal assent this afternoon, means that it will now be possible to proceed with the issuance of approximately 150,000 cheques to veterans as well as others for payment of salaries and accounts. This can now be done.



Donald Methuen Fleming: that the house go into committee to consider Bill No. S-5, to amend the Canadian and British Insurance Companies Act.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Rea in the chair.
On clause 1-"British Company".


Donald Methuen Fleming: May I just remind hon. members that this bill, following second reading on March 7, was referred to the

Canadian and British Insurance Act standing committee on banking and commerce. It has received at the hands of that committee a thorough review and has been reported back now without amendment. Not only was the committee assisted by Mr. MacGregor, the superintendent of insurance, but also there appeared before the committee representatives of the Canadian Life Officers Association. If I may paraphrase their statements to the committee, they indicated their satisfaction with the bill and hoped it might be passed.


[Stage Direction]
Clause agreed to.
Clauses 2 to 11 inclusive agreed to.
On clause 12-Municipal, etc., securities.
Paul Theodore Hellyer: 
Donald Methuen Fleming: I merely point out that to the knowledge of the insurance 


[Stage Direction]
Clause agreed to.
Clauses 13 to 36 agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.

Donald Methuen Fleming: that the house go into committee to consider Bill No. S-6, to amend the Foreign Insurance Companies Act.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill considered in committee, reported, read the third time and passed.

Hon. Gordon Churchill (Minister of Veterans Affairs):: Mr. Speaker, I wonder
whether the sitting of the house could be suspended until you yourself resummon it at about a quarter to six o'clock.


Mr. Speaker:: Is it agreed that the house be suspended at the call of the Chair?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Mr. Speaker:: To be signified by the ringing of the bell?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


SITTING SUSPENDED
[Stage Direction]
At 4.55 p.m. the sitting of the house was suspended during pleasure.

[Stage Direction]
The house resumed at 6.05 p.m.
Mr. Speaker:: I have the honour to inform the house that I have received the following c ommunication:
Government House, Ottawa, 29th March, 1961
Sir:
I have the honour to inform you that the Honourable Patrick Kerwin, Chief Justice of Canada, acting as Deputy of His Excellency the Governor General, will proceed to the Senate chamber today, the 29th March, at 5.45 p.m., for the purpose of giving the royal assent to certain bills.
I have the honour to be, sir,
Your obedient servant,
E. Joly De Lotbiniere
Assistant Secretary to the Governor General

A message was delivered by Major C. R. Lamoureux, Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod, as follows:
Mr. Speaker, the Honourable the Deputy Governor General desires the immediate attendance of this honourable house in the chamber of the honourable the Senate.
Accordingly, Mr. Speaker with the house went up to the Senate chamber.
And being returned:
Mr. Speaker informed the house that the Deputy Governor General had been pleased to give, in Her Majesty's name, the royal assent to the following bills:
An act to incorporate International Brain Research Organization.
An act to amend the Fire Losses Replacement Account Act.
An act to amend the Tariff Board Act.
Royal Assent
An act respecting Canadian Pacific Railway Company.
An act to amend the Coastal Fisheries Protection Act.
An act to amend the Income Tax Act.
An act to incorporate Canadian Pioneer Insurance Company.
An act respecting Canadian General Insurance Company.
An act to amend the Canadian and British Insurance Companies Act.
An act to amend the Foreign Insurance Companies Act.
An act for granting to Her Majesty certain sums of money for the public service for the financial year ending the 31st March, 1962.
An act for granting to Her Majesty certain sums of money for the public service for the financial year ending the 31st March, 1961.
At 6.30 p.m. the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to special order, until Monday, April 10.

Questions



ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
The following answers, deposited with the Clerk of the house, are printed in the official report of debates pursuant to standing order 39:

Mr. Argue: 1.	Was Mr. Daeougna of French Guiana, who sought entry to Canada on September 22, 1960, considered to be a non-bona fide immigrant or non-immigrant?
2.	If so, on what grounds?
Answer by: Hon. Ellen L. Fairclough (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration):
1 and 2. Mr. Daeougna was ordered deported on the grounds that he was not, in the opinion of the special inquiry officer, a bona fide non-immigrant. (See section 5(p) of the Immigration Act.) At the time of his arrival in Canada he had insufficient funds to maintain himself for more than a few days. He gave several different reasons for coming to Canada, including one that he was seeking medical treatment (for which he did not have the funds to pay), and another that he was intending to marry a resident of Canada. His intended fiancee was known to him only through correspondence. Two previous applications for his permanent admission to Canada had been refused, on the grounds that he did not come within the admissible classes of immigrants whose admission is authorized by the Immigration Act and regulations. From the evidence given at the inquiry, the special inquiry officer came to the conclusion that, if Mr. Daeougna were allowed temporary entry to Canada, he might then seek to remain here. On these grounds, since Mr. Daeougna was not in the opinion of the special inquiry officer a bona fide non-immigrant, deportation was ordered.


NATIONAL EMPLOYMENT SERVICE
Mr. Mcllrailh: How many unplaced applicants were registered with the national employment service on the last date for which the information is available in each of the following cities:-Sydney, N.S.; Halifax, N.S.; Saint John, N.B.; Montreal, Que.; Vancouver, B.C.; Edmonton, Alta.; Calgary, Alta.; Winnipeg, Man.: Port Arthur-Fort William, Ont.; Toronto, Ont.; Hamilton, Ont.; Windsor, Ont.?
Answer by: Hon. Michael Starr (Minister of
Labour):
Number of persons registered for employment at local offices of the national employment service on March 16, 1961.
Number
Local Office	Registered
Sydney, N.S	 6,888
Halifax, N.S	 6,976
Saint John, N.B	 3,586
Montreal, P.Q	 90,646
Vancouver, B.C	 37,763
Edmonton, Alta	 21,187
Calgary, Alta	 13,467
Winnipeg, Man	 28,613
Port Arthur, Ont	 6,422
Fort William, Ont	 4,248
Toronto, Ont	 65,339
Hamilton, Ont	 20,806
Windsor, Ont	 11,976


C.N.R. AUTOMATIC YARD CONSTRUCTION
Mr. Badanai: 1.	How many automatic yards are being built by the Canadian National Railways?
2.	What are the locations of these yards?
3.	What is the cost of each?
4.	How many men will these yards displace?
Answer by: Hon. Leon Balcer (Minister of Transpori):
The management of Canadian National Railways advise as follows:
1. Four.
2 and 3.
Location	Estimated cost (millions)
Moncton	
$15.0	(includes	diesel	shop)Montreal	
32.2	(includes	diesel	shop)Toronto	
43.0	(includes	diesel	shop
and proposed freight shed
Winnipeg	 24.2 (includes diesel shop)
4. The yards are being constructed to provide faster and better service to customers through greater efficiency in operations with the objective of producing increased railway traffic volume, which would, of course, maintain or enlarge employment opportunities. As each yard nears completion, yard masters, yard foremen, switch tenders and clerical forces are being retrained in the new skills required. When the yards are fully operational, adjustments will occur some of which will be taken care of by normal attrition. At the same time, retraining measures are being undertaken to provide, wherever possible, alternate employment. Therefore, the displacements which may actually occur are not immediately ascertainable.


D.B.S.-LABOUR STATISTICS-JOINT MONTHLY RELEASE
Mr. Pitman: 1. Has there been any change in the distribution of the joint monthly release of the Department of Labour and the dominion bureau of statistics over the last six months?

2.	If so, what are the reasons?
3.	Are the official monthly national employment service figures available from the regional offices of the national employment services?
4.	Are national employment service figures broken down into categories, such as unskilled, clerical, etc?
5.	If so, are these statistics available through local national employment service offices?
Answer by: Hon. Michael Starr (Minister of
Labour):
1.	No.
2.	Not applicable.
3.	Figures representing the total number of persons registered for employment with local offices of the national employment service are released from time to time.
4.	For internal operational purposes these figures are broken down into a number of occupational categories.
5.	See 3 and 4.
Note: When compiled, national figures on registrations for employment are published in the Labour Gazette, broken down into several occupational categories.



UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE


Mr. Pitman: 1. How often do the local offices of the unemployment insurance commission report to Ottawa on such administrative matters as registrations, refunds, claimants, etc?
Questions
2.	Is this information compiled monthly?
3.	If so. when in each month is it made available to the government?
4.	Are these statistics normally made available to persons outside those employed in government service?
Answer by: Hon. Michael Starr (Minister of
Labour):
1.	Reports containing information as to the number of claims registered, the disposition of these claims, the number of active claimants, etc., are made monthly by local offices to Ottawa. No reports of refunds are made to Ottawa as these are dealt with at regional offices.
2.	Yes.
3 and 4. The information regarding claims is contained in the "Statistical Report on the Operation of the Unemployment Insurance Act", published by the dominion bureau of statistics usually within seven weeks of the end of the month to which the material pertains. This report is available to the public on a subscription basis.



DRY MILK AND MILK POWDER IMPORTS

Mr. Boulanger: 1.	Has Canada imported dry whole milk and skim milk powder in the years 1959 and 1960?
2.	If so, how many pounds, and from what country?
Answer by: Hon. George H. Hees (Minister
of Trade and Commerce):
1 and 2.
Statistics on imports of skim powdered milk and whole powdered milk during 1959 and 1960
			Calendar Year		
Commodity and statistical class number	1959	1960	Country	Quantity	Value	Quantity	ValueLb.	%	Lb.	$Milk, skim, powdered (2280)	
Switzerland....	
926	548	977	581United States..	
36,040	5,934	32,538	4,500Total	
36,966	6,482	33,515	5,081Milk, whole, powdered (2286)	
Ireland	
-	-	11,200	2,900New Zealand...	
22,400	5,585	115,360	25,488United States. .	
120,099	41,023	76,492	26,276Total	
142,499	46,608	203,052	54,664



CORN FODDER IMPORTS FROM U.S.

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Question No. 162-Mr. Boulanger: What quantities of com fodder were imported from the United States during 1959 and 1960? Answer by: Hon. George H. Hees (Minister of Trade and Commerce):		1. Statistics not available. Imports of corn fodder are included in a number of statistical classes, for example: 167, "Indian corn", 1836, "Vegetable products n.o.p., other than food"; 1843, "Vegetable flour n.o.p., not edible".			
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Supply-Items Passed [The following items were passed in committee of supply]:

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Mutual aid-
708.	Contributions to infrastructure and military costs of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization- further amount required, $740,000.
General services-
709.	Grants to assist in the construction of the soldiers' memorial hospital at Middleton, Nova Scotia-further amount required, $70,588.

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National health branch-
Health services, including assistance to the provinces-
710.	To authorize general health grants to the provinces, the Northwest Territories and the Yukon Territory upon the terms and in the amounts detailed in the estimates-further amount required, $6,000,000.
711.	Administration of the Opium and Narcotic Drugs Act-further amount required, $35,000.
General-
712.	Grants to health and welfare and related organizations, as detailed in the estimates-further amount required, $10,000.

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Customs and excise division-
713.	To provide that Joseph Napoleon Armand Berthiaume (otherwise known as Joseph Alfred Roland Gariepy) is deemed to have been an employee of the crown in the Department of National Revenue, customs and excise division, and continuously employed during the period between May 16, 1927 and June 17, 1960 inclusive, $1.

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714.	Customs duty and sales tax on pipe-lines and oil purchased from the United States government, pursuant to vote 619 of the Appropriation Act No. 1, 1960, $486,588.
Water resources branch-
715.	Construction of a fishway on the Yukon river at the site of the hydroelectric power development being constructed by the Northern Canada power commission for the Whitehorse area, $5,290.
Northern administration branch-
716.	Branch administration-to extend the purposes of vote 282 of the main estimates for 1960-61 to include a grant of $2,000 to assist in defraying the expenses of the first international symposium on Arctic geology and to provide a further amount of $16,000.
Yukon Territory-
717.	Operation and maintenance-to extend the purposes of vote 287 of the main estimates for 1960-61 to include the grant and the contribution detailed in these estimates, $115,000.
Northwest Territories and other field services-
718.	Operation and maintenance-to extend the purposes of vote 289 of the main estimates for 1960-61 to include the grants detailed in these estimates, $62,300.

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719.	Transportation-movement of mail by land, air and water, including administration-further amount required, $1,232,000.

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Special-
720.	Expenses of the royal commission on railway problems-further amount required, $10,800.
721.	Expenses of the royal commission on coal -further amount required, $9,870.
722.	Expenses of the royal commission on the Great Slave Lake Railway-further amount required, $2,150.

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723.	Printing of Canada Gazette-further amount required, $17,000.
724.	Printing and binding the annual statutes -further amount required, $3,000.
725.	Reimbursement of the Queen's printer's advance account for the value of stores which have become obsolete, unserviceable, lost or destroyed, $41,467.

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Public buildings construction and services- Construction, acquisition, major repairs and improvements of, and plans and sites for, public buildings listed in the details of the estimates, provided that treasury board may increase or decrease the amount within the vote to be expended on individual listed projects-further amounts required-
726.	Nova Scotia, $7.
727.	Manitoba, $1.
728.	Saskatchewan, $1.
Harbours and rivers-
Engineering services-
Construction, acquisition, major repairs and improvements of, and plans and sites for, harbour and river works listed in the details of the estimates, provided that treasury board may increase or decrease the amount within the vote to be expended on individual listed projects- further amount required-
729.	British Columbia and Yukon, $1.

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(formerly under privy council)
730.	Administration, and operation and maintenance of parks, parkways and grounds adjoining government buildings at Ottawa and Hull-further amount required, $66,500.
731.	Interest charges on outstanding loans that were made for the purpose of acquiring property in the national capital region-further amount required, $140,000.

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Land, air and training divisions-
732.	Operation and maintenance-further amount required, $224,500.
Marine services-
733.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment-further amount required, $31,704.
Pensions and other benefits-
734.	Government's contribution to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police superannuation account (formerly the Royal Canadian Mounted Police pension account)-further amount required, $34,117.

[Stage Direction]
A-Department-
General administration-
735.	To amend vote 692 of the Appropriation Act No. 5, 1958, by adding thereto the words "and to

ratify orders in council PC. 2701 of May 16, 1952, P.C. 1954-1040 of July 6, 1954, P.C. 1955-35/1033 of July 7, 1955, and P.C. 1956-1267 of August 15, 1956, providing for increases in such rate as therein authorized, and order in council P.C. 1958-875 providing that such rate be $16,500 per annum", $1.
Trade commissioner service-
736.	Administration and operation-further amount required, $100,000.
737. Exhibitions	branch-further amount required, $95,000.

[Stage Direction]
A-Department-
Marine services-
Aids to navigation-
738.	Administration, operation and maintenance -further amount required, $46,130.
Railway and steamship services-
Payments to the Canadian National Railway Company (hereinafter called the company) upon applications approved by the Minister of Transport, made by the company to the Minister of Finance, to be applied by the company in payment of the deficits, certified by the auditors of the company, arising in the operations in the calendar year 1960-further amounts required-
739.	Prince Edward Island car ferry and terminals, $322,464.
740.	Newfoundland ferry and terminals, $22,820.
741.	Canadian National Railways deficit, 1960- amount required to provide for payment to the Canadian National Railway Company (hereinafter called the National Company) upon applications approved by the Minister of Transport, made by the National Company to the Minister of Finance, and to be applied by the National Company in payment of the system deficit (certified by the auditors of the National Company) arising in the calendar year 1960, subject to recovery therefrom of accountable advances made to the National Company from the consolidated revenue fund, $67,496,777.
Pensions and other benefits-
742.	Supplemental pension allowances to former employees of Newfoundland railways, steamships and telecommunication services transferred to Canadian National Railways-further amount required, $12,652.
General-
743.	Trans-Canada Air Lines deficit, 1960-amount required to provide for payment to Trans-Canada Air Lines (hereinafter called the company) upon applications approved by the Minister of Transport, made by the company to the Minister of Finance, and to be applied by the company in payment of the deficit (certified by the auditors of the company) arising in the calendar year 1960, subject to recovery therefrom of accountable advances made to the company from the consolidated revenue fund, $2,607,350.
744.	Reimbursement of Department of Transport stores account for the value of stores which have become obsolete, unserviceable, lost or destroyed, $62,514.
Air services-
Administrative branch-
745.	Construction services administration-further amount required, $25,000.
Civil aviation branch-
746.	Control of civil aviation including the administration of the Aeronautics Act and Regulations issued thereunder-further amount required, $58,000.
Supply-Items Passed
747.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment-to extend the purposes of vote 446 of the main estimates, 1960-61, to provide authority to charge to that vote the cost of lands purchased by means of loans provided for the acquisition of land required to control properties in the vicinity of main terminal airports in order to prevent the erection of hazards to flying and for future development of new and existing main terminal airports including facilities for relieving congestion thereat, $1.
748.	Grants for the development of civil aviation, in the amounts detailed in the estimates-further amount required, $130,000.
Special-
749.	Gift of furnishings to the headquarters of the world meteorological organization at Geneva, Switzerland, $1,006.
B-General-
Canadian maritime commission-
750.	Steamship subventions for coastal services, as detailed in the estimates-further amount required, $692,779.

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Treatment services-
751.	Hospital construction, improvements, equipment, and acquisition of land-further amount required, $695,000.
752.	Prosthetic services-supply, manufacture and administration-further amount required, $25,000.
War veterans allowances and other benefits-
753.	Assistance fund (war veterans allowances) - further amount required, $100,000.
754.	Treatment and other allowances-further amount required, $50,000.
Canadian pension commission-
755.	Pensions for disability and death, including pensions granted under the authority of the civilian government employees (war) compensation order, P.C. 45/8848 of November 22, 1944, which shall be subject to the Pension Act, and including Newfoundland, special awards-further amount required, $2,200,000.
756.	Gallantry awards-world war II and special force-further amount required, $500.
Soldier Settlement and Veterans' Land Act-
757.	Grants to Indian veterans settled on Indian reserve lands under section 39 of the Veterans' Land Act-further amount required, $2,000.
758.	To authorize, subject to the approval of the governor in council, necessary remedial work on properties constructed under individual firm price contracts and sold under the Veterans' Land Act and to correct defects for which neither the veteran nor the contractor can be held financially responsible; and for such other work on other properties as may be required to protect the interest of the director therein-further amount required, $150.
Loans, investments and advances-
Canadian Broadcasting Corporation-
759.	Advances to the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, in accordance with such terms and conditions as the governor in council may approve, for the purpose of increasing working capital, $3,000,000.

[Stage Direction]
Penitentiaries-
760.	To increase to $255,000 the amount that may be charged at any time to the revolving fund established by vote 543 of the Appropriation Act No. 3, 1953, and extended by vote 658 of the
[Stage Direction]
Supply-Items Passed
Appropriation Act No. 5, 1958, for the purpose of financing the operation of canteens in federal penitentiaries; additional amount required, $200,000.

[Stage Direction]
National parks branch-
761.	Loans to the Jasper recreation commission in the current and subsequent fiscal years, on such terms and conditions as the governor in council may approve, to assist in the construction of an ice arena, $25,000.
Northern administration branch-
762.	Loans to the government of the Yukon Territory (hereinafter called the Territory) in the current and subsequent fiscal years, in accordance with such terms and conditions as the governor in council may approve, to enable that government to make second mortgage loans to residents of the territory for the purchase or construction of houses in the territory under the National Housing Act; and to authorize the commissioners of the territory in council, notwithstanding anything in the Yukon Act, to make ordinances in respect of the repayment by the government of the territory of loans made to it pursuant to this vote and in respect of the lending of money to residents of the territory for the purchase or construction of
houses in the territory and the taking of security therefor by way of mortgage, $100,000.
763.	Loans to the government of the Northwest Territories (hereinafter called the Territories) in the current and subsequent fiscal years, in accordance with such terms and conditions as the governor in council may approve, to enable that government to make second mortgage loans to residents of the territories for the purchase or construction of houses in the territories under the National Housing Act; and to authorize the commissioner of the territories in council, notwithstanding anything in the Northwest Territories Act, to make ordinances in respect of the repayment by the government of the territories of loans made to it pursuant to this vote and in respect of the lending of money to residents of the territories for the purchase or construction of houses in the territories and the taking of security therefor by way of mortgage, $100,000.

[Stage Direction]
Soldier Settlement and Veterans' Land Act-
764.	Purchase of land and permanent improvement; cost of permanent improvements to be effected; removal of encumbrances; stock and equipment; and protection of security under the Veterans' Land Act-further amount required, $600,000.


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90205-6-139i

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Monday, February 20, 1961