1961-06-10

Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Motions.


Mr. Harold E. Winch (Vancouver East):: Is
this the point, Mr. Speaker, at which I suggest that the flag of the House of Commons be lowered to half mast to designate a day of mourning because of the election of a Conservative government four years ago?



ANNOUNCEMENT OF ADDITIONAL SALE TO POLAND

Hon. Alvin Hamilton (Minister of Agriculture):: Mr. Speaker, further to my announcement on June 6 concerning the sale of wheat to Poland, I should like now to inform the house that an additional contract for 100,000 tons of wheat has been signed between the Canadian wheat board and the Polish national trade organization Rolimpex.
The government has authorized export credits insurance to facilitate this sale, the terms being the same as in the first agreement. Shipment of this wheat is to take place during the current crop year. This contract brings the total amount of wheat sold to Poland this year to 7.5 million bushels.
rLater: ]
On the orders of the day:


Mr. Eric Siefanson (Selkirk):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture arising out of the announcement he made this morning respecting an additional sale of wheat to Poland. When the minister announced the last sale to Poland he indicated the wheat would be shipped through the St. Lawrence seaway and eastern ports. Will this new sale of wheat to Poland also be handled through eastern ports so as to benefit farmers in Manitoba and eastern Saskatchewan?


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: Yes, Mr. Speaker.



CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Lionel Chevrier (Laurier):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question
to the Prime Minister and ask him if he has seen the editorial appearing in this morning's Globe and Mail entitled "A Knife for Mr. Gordon", which concludes with the following sentence:
If the government wants to remove Mr. Gordon it should do so openly, accept the full responsibility, and give the public its reasons. To use backbenchers to do the dirty work is unworthy of national leaders.
Has the Prime Minister any comment to make on this editorial?
Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prime
Minister): Mr. Speaker, I have always followed the course of not making comments on editorials, and this occasion will be no exception.


Lionel Chevrier: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Does the Prime Minister not think that this is a disgraceful manner in which to proceed-


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Order. It seems to me that the question is argumentative, to say the least.


Lionel Chevrier: Well, Mr. Speaker, I feel that I have the right to ask a supplementary question.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Yes, but may I suggest to the hon. member that I was doubtful as to the propriety of his first question, and the hon. gentleman's second question is certainly out of order because it is argumentative.


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. May I point out to Your Honour, in the first place, that with all respect to what you have said I think it is quite in order to ask the Prime Minister a question based on an editorial. Your Honour saw fit to allow the question. The supplementary question was not going to proceed on that basis. I now propose to ask Your Honour if I am not in order in asking the Prime Minister whether it is the practice to use backbenchers to do the work which the government should do.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Order. That is the exact question I understood the hon. member intended to put. Let me say that the original question was based on an editorial commenting on debates in the house. The hon. member knows that questions of this kind are not usually put on orders of the day. The hon. gentleman's second question was certainly argumentative, in that it sought to discuss

Inquiries of the Ministry the conduct of members in the house. In this respect I think it was clearly out of order.


Mr. Hazen Argue (Assiniboia):: If I may
speak to the point of order, Mr. Speaker, I believe it is correct to say that questions based on editorials are not in order. It is not in order to refer to editorial comment in the house. I would submit with great deference, however, that it is in order to ask the government about an important question of policy relating to the government's attitude toward the appointment of the president of the Canadian National Railways or his continuation in office. I think it is very pertinent, because the question has been raised on frequent occasions and there has been much public comment and speculation.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Order. I have not ruled that all questions pertaining to the appointment of the president of the Canadian National Railways would be out of order. I have merely indicated that the questions put by the hon. member for Laurier were, in my view, clearly out of order. If the hon. member for Assiniboia has a question to put on the subject he may proceed to do so, but I suggest that discussing the point of order in order to emphasize or underline an argument would not be a regular course to follow.


Hazen Robert Argue: May I then ask the government if it will announce at an early date its policy toward the president of the Canadian National Railways, and whether his term of service will be extended for a particular period.


Mr. Diefenbaker:: Mr. Speaker, let me say immediately, with respect to the suggestion of the hon. member for Laurier to the effect that something disgraceful had taken place, that the question the hon. gentleman asked qualifies fully for the descriptive word he used. Now, with regard to the question-


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege-


Some hon. Members:: Sit down.


Lionel Chevrier: I rise on a question of privilege. The Prime Minister is allowed to get away with a reply to the question but I am not allowed to ask him the question.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Lionel Chevrier: That is exactly what is happening in the house. If Your Honour wishes to deal with the matter in this fashion it is all right with us, but I think I should point out that if it is unfair for me to put the question to the Prime Minister-


John George Diefenbaker: I objected to the use of the word "disgraceful".


Lionel Chevrier: -it is equally unfair for the Prime Minister to use the words which he did use a moment ago.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Order. The hon. member for Laurier may be right in some respects, but certainly not in implying that the Chair was being unfair. The hon. member has enough experience to realize that the Speaker cannot stop in advance questions which are irregular. Also, it is not easy for the Chair to prevent a few words being said which are not in order. I think the hon. member for Laurier realizes that the questioner gets away with an irregular question more often than the minister who is called upon to reply does with an irregular answer.


Lionel Chevrier: I am afraid it is the other way around.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I immediately say this on the question of privilege. There was no objection to the question. The use of the word "disgraceful" as a part of the question was what I objected to and to which I made reference.


Lionel Chevrier: I object to the language used as applying to me.


John George Diefenbaker: As far as the question is concerned, the hon. member will realize that the board of directors legislation has now been passed and it has received royal assent. The board of directors will be appointed and will convene, and naturally will give consideration to those things that are requisite to be brought before them in their position as directors of the Canadian National Railways. We waited for the passing of the legislation and now have it approved.
I wish to add, also, that in so far as the suggestion in the editorial is concerned, namely that there was any use of backbenchers, that was a most unjustified allegation.


Hazen Robert Argue: Mr. Speaker, I rise-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Hazen Robert Argue: I rise on a point of order. If it is not in order for the hon. member for Laurier to base a question on an editorial in the Globe and Mail, neither is it in order for the Prime Minister to base a reply on the editorial. The rules must be dealt with in an impartial manner, and when a rule applies to an opposition member I take it that it also applies even to the Prime Minister.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I would make very clear that I support the hon.

gentleman in what he has stated, that editorials should not be read in the house; but the implication in the reading of that editorial required-


Hazen Robert Argue: It was not read.


John George Diefenbaker: -a reply, even though much shorter and more succinct than the circumstances might demand. The question the hon. member asked was a proper one, and one that I am sure is of general interest. Now that the legislation in respect of the board of directors has received approval, the appointments will be made and this problem will no longer be one that will require the asking of questions.


Hon. L. B. Pearson (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Prime Minister whether it was not competent for the board of directors of the C.N.R. to deal with this matter, if they so desired, before legislation enlarging the board was passed?


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: The hon. member for Moose Jaw-Lake Centre.


Mr. G. J. Mcllrailh (Ottawa West):: Mr. Speaker I wish to ask a supplementary question. I should like to ask the Prime Minister whether the views as to the president of the Canadian National Railways and his competence, as expressed by the hon. member for Joliette-L'Assomption-Montcalm (Mr. Pigeon) and the hon. member for Danforth (Mr. Small) on June 8 in this house, correctly represent the views of the government in this matter.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Order. I think this matter has been sufficiently dealt with. It started on the wrong foot and it has created enough complication up to now. The hon. member for Moose Jaw-Lake Centre.


George James McIlraith: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, may I ask upon what ground the question I put is out of order?


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: I think an answer has been given on the point. The hon. member is trying to have the Prime Minister comment on a debate which has taken place in this house, because the hon. member quoted the opinions expressed by some hon. members in the discussion of the estimates of the Department of Transport. I think the question which was put by the hon. member for Assiniboia was exactly on the same point. An answer was given, and I think the hon. member for Ottawa West will realize that he is indirectly trying to create a debate on the issue.
90205-6-387
Inquiries of the Ministry


George James McIlraith: No, Mr. Speaker. May I state what I was trying to say? I was trying to find out government policy on this matter of public importance which is the direct responsibility of the government. I was very careful not to ask for comment on the speeches made in the house. I was careful to phrase my question in such a form as to ask if they represented the policy of the government.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Order. I have expressed my view on the question which has been put and on the answer given. It seems obvious that questions, generally speaking, which invite the government to express policy are not proper on orders of the day because they may involve, as the hon. member will realize, a wide scope of discussion. I think the question should be left at this point, because it will turn into a debate.


Lionel Chevrier: May I ask a supplementary question?


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: The hon. member for Laurier seems to be competing with the Chair. I have already indicated that I thought this matter had been sufficiently dealt with, and I do not see how it would be in accordance with that view if I allowed a further question.


Lionel Chevrier: Would Your Honour allow the question and then rule upon it? My supplementary question is this. Does the Prime Minister realize that here we are on June 10-


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Lionel Chevrier: I knew my question would be allowed if I prefaced it in that manner.


Mr. Depuiy Speaker:: I would not want the hon. member to prejudge the case, because I have not heard the question yet.


Lionel Chevrier: Having regard to the date at which we have arrived and our consideration of the affairs of the C.N.R., does the Prime Minister not think that long before this date the annual report and accounts of the Canadian National Railways should have been dealt with by the special committee on railways, air lines and shipping?


Mr. Depuiy Speaker:: I must indicate that I shall allow the Prime Minister to reply, but I think the question was argumentative and one can expect the answer to be in the same vein.


Lionel Chevrier: 1 do not wish to deal with this matter unduly, but this has to do with the business of the house.


Mr. Depuiy Speaker:: I agree that it has to do with the business of the house, but the

Inquiries of the Ministry question has been put in a form which would suggest an argumentative reply. It was a discussion on the conduct of the house; it put forward an argument.


Lionel Chevrier: I say to you respectfully that it was not discussing the conduct of the house. It was discussing the affairs of the C.N.R., and I should like to know why the affairs of the Canadian National Railways have not been fully discussed in the committee on railways, air lines and shipping owned and operated by the government. I should appreciate it if the Prime Minister would give the reason for this long delay.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, all through the piece in the last few months there have been nothing but howls and screams on behalf of members of the opposition that there have been too many committees meeting and that this is taking up too much of their time. Now they will immediately be accommodated, I am sure. They have gone through the estimates of the Department of Transport as meticulously and carefully as the opposition are capable of within their limitations. Having done that, I am sure the committee will meet at the earliest possible date, and that the desire for discussion and consideration of the report will be entirely met.
I thank the hon. member, too, for the reference regarding the 10th of June, because I know that is the reason he feels so badly today.



AGRICULTURE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. E. Pascoe (Moose Jaw-Lake Centre):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question of more urgency to the Minister of National Defence. Will the minister outline how the federal government is answering the request received from the province of Saskatchewan for assistance in the battle against the grasshoppers now threatening the western crops?


Hon. D. S. Harkness (Minister of National Defence):: Mr. Speaker, on Thursday evening I received an urgent request from the Saskatchewan minister of agriculture for assistance in getting grasshopper poison out .to Saskatchewan, as they had run short of it. In response to this request I authorized the Royal Canadian Air Force to assist in combating the infestation in Saskatchewan by airlifting the badly needed supply of insecticides from Toronto to Regina. This emergency airlift commenced on Friday, June 9, in the afternoon and will continue until an adequate supply of insecticide is available to overcome


the threat. It is anticipated that the airlift necessary to do this will be completed some time today.


Hazen Robert Argue: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a supplementary question. Can the minister tell us whether any of the planes of the department will be used for actual spraying work?


Douglas Scott Harkness: No, Mr. Speaker, I have had no request in that regard. I do not think the planes we have are adaptable to that purpose. As the hon. member knows, small, light aircraft specially equipped with spraying equipment are used for that operation.


Mr. E. W. Brunsden (Medicine Hal):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a supplementary question. Could the minister give me some assurance that the infestation will stop at the Alberta border?



ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. P. Deschaielets (Maisonneuve-Rose-monl):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Prime Minister? Has the Prime Minister seen in the Toronto Daily Star of June 9, 1961, the joint letter written by six leading law professors recommending postponement of the passage of the bill in respect to capital murder in order to provide an opportunity for an independent examination of its provisions by a body of judges and practising and academic lawyers specialized in criminal law?


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Order.


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Mr. Speaker, my question is-


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Order. Perhaps I will allow the hon. member to ask his question, but I should indicate to him that its basis is improper in view of the fact that it deals with legislation which has not gone through all stages.


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: My question is, in light of this very important development, does the Prime Minister not think the provisions of this bill should be re-examined?
Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prime
Minister): Mr. Speaker, the House of Commons has completed its consideration of this bill. In any event, the answer would have been in the negative.


Mr. Arnold Peters (Timiskaming):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a supplementary question. There are a number of people in Canada now under death sentence, and I should like to know whether these sentences will be stayed until such time as a review and decision can be made under the terms of this act which we are now contemplating.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, the answer to that question is also in the negative. In so far as discussion respecting the exercise of clemency is concerned, that is a matter which cannot properly be brought before this house.



PUBLIC BUILDINGS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Hubert Badanai (Fort William):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Defence. There is a rumour that an amount of $800,000 included in the estimates of the Department of National Defence has been earmarked for the construction of a new armoury in Sudbury, and tenders will be called early in 1962. Can the minister give the house some information regarding this project?


Douglas Scott Harkness: Mr. Speaker, the rumour is incorrect, but I suggest that a better time to raise matters of this kind would be when the estimates of the department are under consideration.


Hubert Badanai: I have a supplementary question. Has the minister given any consideration to the re-establishment of an armoury at Fort William?


Douglas Scott Harkness: The matter of building new armouries at Fort William and Sudbury has been under consideration, but no decision has been reached.



CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. J. W. Monieiih (Acting Minister of National Revenue):: Mr. Speaker, yesterday the hon. member for St. Ann asked whether I was aware of certain comments of the chairman of the board of directors of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation with respect to the search for a suitable location in the city of Montreal where C.B.C. operations will be consolidated. I did notice this report, and I am informed by the Canadian Broadcasting 90205-6-3874
Inquiries of the Ministry Corporation that a final decision has not been taken with respect to the location described in the question, as both the city and the corporation have decided to study one or more additional locations before deciding on the matter.


EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Arthur Smith (Calgary South):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Secretary of State for External Affairs whether he can report on any new developments in the situation in Laos.


Hon. Howard C. Green (Secretary of State for External Affairs):: Mr. Speaker, as a result of intensive consultations yesterday the prospects for the conference resuming its work now appear to be better. I understand that Lord Home will be going to Geneva tomorrow to discuss the situation with Mr. Gromyko, the Soviet co-chairman, who has indicated that with good will on both sides an effective cease fire can be established throughout Laos.
In Vientiane, at Canadian initiative, the commission has expressed to the Laotian parties its serious concern at the turn of events in Ban Padong. The commission has stated that it intends to visit a number of trouble spots and report to the co-chairmen. It is expected that Ban Padong will be one of these, and arrangements are now being worked out with the local authorities.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. J. W. Pickersgill (Bonavisfa-Twil-lingate):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys whether he can tell the house in what fashion the house is to be asked to approve the $1J million special vote that he announced some days ago to provide for additional employment in Cape Breton.


Hon. Paul Comtois (Minisier of Mines and Technical Surveys):: Mr. Speaker, the same answer applies that I made the day before yesterday. The matter is under study, and when the study is completed an announcement will be made.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I think the minister did not quite understand my question. Perhaps I could put it to the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Finance. I am not asking about the projects, but I am asking about the

Inquiries of the Ministry method by which the house is to be asked to approve the $1J million. Can the parliamentary secretary say what method is to be used?


Mr. Richard A. Bell (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance):: Mr. Speaker, I am not in a position to do so this morning.



HEALTH AND WELFARE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hazen Robert Argue: Mr. Speaker, I should like to address a question to the Minister of Veterans Affairs. In view of the recent exposure of Toronto children to radioactive contamination, can the minister say whether the source of these radioactive materials has now been determined? Will he also state what action has been taken to ensure that all owners and users of radioactive materials take every precaution to ensure that these materials do not endanger public safety?


Hon. Gordon Churchill (Minister of Veterans Affairs):: Mr. Speaker, this problem is of such importance that a full report should be made to the House of Commons as early as possible next week. An investigation is now under way, and I require a little more time in order to get full information.


Hazen Robert Argue: In a very brief way, could the minister tell the house at this time the policy with regard to these materials, which have brought about a situation of this kind?


Gordon Minto Churchill: I think my earlier suggestion was a sound one. A full report will be made next week.



INQUIRY AS TO PROVISION FOR ACREAGE PAYMENTS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hazen Robert Argue: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture. Can the minister inform the house whether the government will be putting an item in the estimates this year to provide for a payment of $1 an acre for up to 200 acres to western producers?


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: Mr. Speaker, that is a matter of government policy which will be announced in due course.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Chown in the chair.



ROYAL CANADIAN MOUNTED POLICE

[Stage Direction]
Headquarters administration and national police
services-
378. Operation and maintenance, $7,904,906.
Mr. Fulton:: Mr. Chairman, yesterday I had just commenced answering the general inquiries that had been made on this first item and I had not quite completed my remarks. As a matter of courtesy to those hon. members-


The Deputy Chairman:: Order. I am having some difficulty hearing the minister. I wonder whether we could have quiet in the committee, please.


Edmund Davie Fulton: As a matter of courtesy to those hon. members who made comments or suggestions I think I should complete my reply. In connection with the remarks of the hon. member for Kootenay West on the standards of training and qualifications of members of the security and intelligence branch, and dealing specifically with the comments as to language training, I might say that we have a number of personnel in that division who are well qualified indeed so far as a knowledge of foreign languages is concerned. At any time that we required further training from this point of view we would not hesitate to send our personnel on the necessary courses.
I might also point out that in addition to actual academic training we have in our force constables and N.C.O.'s from every ethnic group in Canada with the exception of the Eskimo group, and we are now trying to get a qualified Eskimo who might be available to join the force. I should point out that at the present time we have a number of special constables in the force who are Eskimos. Let me emphasize again that we have members and N.C.O.'s from every other ethnic group in Canada.
It might interest hon. members if I were to put on the record a list of the ethnic and language groups from which our members are drawn and the totals in each group. In the totals I show here I would emphasize that these members speak fluently the language in question: German, 169; Ukrainian, 202; Russian, 46; Polish, 70; Czech, 18; Hungarian, 12; Yugoslav, 7; Bulgarian, 1; Rumanian, 2; Croatian 1; Slovakian, 5; Latvian, 1; Lithuanian, 5; Greek, 2; Italian, 24; Spanish, 3; Dutch, 22; Flemish, 2; Yiddish, 4; Swedish 13; Norwegian, 21; Danish, 15; Icelandic, 14; Finnish, 4; Japanese 2; Chinese, 2; Eskimo, 1; Cree, 1; Gaelic, 5; Swahili, the language used in the Congo and Kenya, 2; Arabic 1. In so far as Eskimo is concerned, I point out that we have one member who speaks this language fluently, although he is not himself an

Eskimo, and we have a number who have a knowledge of the language, but we would not qualify them as fluent.
The hon. member for Maisonneuve-Rose-mont raised a question with regard to dog teams in the territories. I can assure him that it is not the normal practice to fly dog teams around the territories. Such circumstances would only arise very rarely. Normally the patrols would be undertaken from the detachment where the dog teams are kept. It would only be if the incident which required investigation took place in a very remote area that the dog teams would be flown to another point from which the patrol by dog team would actually start. We have, in fact, eight snowmobiles stationed at various points throughout the territories. Some years ago we did make an experiment with an auto-toboggan. The one with which the experiment was then conducted was found not to be suitable.
Now, with regard to the question concerning the increase in the number of dogs, I think the hon. member has misconstrued the circumstances. We are not undertaking an overall increase, certainly no substantial increase in the number of dogs. There is a program under way, however, for breeding a new type of husky, a Siberian husky, which research has shown to be more amenable, more easily trained and a less dangerous animal than the present type of sled dog in use throughout the territories. There have been some very unpleasant attacks upon persons by sled dogs, not so much by our dogs-because I think we have them under pretty good control at all times-but these attacks on humans have been made by the type of husky which has been in use up there. We believe we should first establish the use of the new type dogs ourselves, and then encourage their use throughout the whole of the territories.
The hon. member for Chapleau raised the very difficult problem of the enforcement of the pleasure boat regulations. This is a work that is of increasing concern and difficulty to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. At the moment there are an estimated three quarters of a million pleasure boats in Canada, and this total is rising rapidly. The problem of enforcement of the small boat regulations is becoming acute, and one which requires a great deal of planning. We are concerned lest our planning and the recruiting of our establishment cannot keep pace with the increasing demands that are made upon us.
In this connection I might point out that our difficulty in this is a summertime problem. It is difficult indeed, as hon. members will understand, to persuade treasury board that we should be allowed the increase in our establishment necessary to take care of the volume of work which this entails in the
Supply-R.C.M.P.
summer, because if that were done then there would be the problem of whether or not we had more men than we needed at other times. We have not really been able to get any special establishment for this work. I may point out that with the limited establishment we have now we made 41,000 separate checks last year, and the information collected in these investigations resulted in 607 convictions.
We do feel that this is a problem for which the public of Canada should not expect the sole responsibility to be assumed by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. The use of motorboats and pleasure boats has reached a point where it may well be equated with the use of motor vehicles on the highway. Instead of driving cars for pleasure or touring, people frequently drive their boats or there is a combination of the two, the boats being towed on trailers behind the cars and put in the lakes and then the boats are used for tourism. Just as the Royal Canadian Mounted Police could hardly be thought, indeed is not thought, to be responsible for checking the extra summer traffic on the highways, it is our view that we should not be held exclusively responsible for checking the extra summer traffic on our waterways which is brought about by the influx of tourists.
We feel quite strongly it is only proper that we should suggest the provinces, and indeed the municipalities, might assume extra responsibility in this direction. I think hon. members will be interested to know that some of the regulations with regard to small boats are to be moved out of the regulations under the Canada Shipping Act and incorporated in amendments to the Criminal Code which I will be introducing later. We feel this is quite proper because not only is the traffic in small boats assuming such proportions that the provisions regarding safe driving should really become part of the criminal law, but this will have the additional result that, being part of the criminal law, it will no longer be the sole responsibility of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police to enforce these laws.
The hon. member for Hull raised questions about bilingual personnel on parliament hill. In view of the number of persons who come from all over Canada and, naturally, from the province of Quebec, to visit the hill, it is most desirable that we should have bilingual personnel here. I must say that we agree entirely with the hon. gentleman, and follow this policy within the limits of the resources at our disposal in having bilingual personnel stationed on parliament hill, especially during the summer months.

Supply-R.C.M.P.


Harold Edward Winch: Will any statement be made on the question of the Chinese immigration inquiry which I raised yesterday?


Edmund Davie Fulton: I think the proper approach to this problem is that policy statements with respect to the Chinese immigration inquiry should be made by my colleague the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration. I think I should go no further at this point than to say that when the minister announced the inquiry and the steps that had been taken to date and would be taken in the subsequent period, she said that she counted particularly, in what is described colloquially but somewhat inaccurately as the amnesty program, on the co-operation of the Chinese community to clear those who might be referred to as innocent passengers in this traffic and to establish who are the ringleaders in organized criminal activity. Unfortunately we have not found that co-operation forthcoming to the extent that we had hoped and to the extent that I believe we were entitled to expect.
My friend the hon. member for Vancouver Centre, in speaking on the introduction of my estimates some two or three weeks ago, made a statement in this regard. As he is a Canadian of Chinese origin it came particularly appropriately from him. The hon. gentleman in his statement outlined his consideration and study of the matter, and expressed regret that the degree of co-operation that might have been expected had not been forthcoming.
I can only say that while we have had some prosecutions and have achieved some success in obtaining evidence that established clearly the culpability of some of those who are quite prominent in the racketeering that was going on, we have not made all the progress that we had hoped for and it may be some time before we can record substantial progress. The matter is causing a very great deal of concern, and it has been the subject of discussion between my colleague and myself from the point of view of whether or not the time has arrived-and there are many considerations that argue that it has- when perhaps a new approach, taking advantage of some of the other provisions of the law which so far we have not invoked, might be warranted.


Harold Edward Winch: Can the minister give a progress report on the R.C.M.P. investigation? A statement on the subject from the minister would give an assurance that I am certain would be welcomed by the Canadian Chinese community.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Mr. Chairman, I have to say, with regret, that I am not in a position to

give an authoritative and final statement because, as I have indicated, we are unfortunately not receiving the co-operation which we expected and to which I think we are entitled, when one considers that one of the main objects of our inquiry is to clear up this situation once and for all and to establish and regularize the position of those Chinese who may be in Canada on the basis of irregular entry but with respect to whom, as my colleague the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration said, there is no intention of prosecuting or pushing out of Canada when they themselves were only innocent passengers in this traffic. I hope that in the course of the reasonable future we might be able to bring some finality to the matter and at that time one could make a statement, but at the present time because of the stone wall of refusal to give information which is clearly within the knowledge of those concerned we have not been able to make the progress we would like to have made.
As I said, this is a matter of concern and discussion between my colleague and myself as to whether we should invoke some of the other provisions of the law which are available but which so far we have not relied upon, in order to obtain this information that we must have in the interests of the Chinese community itself.


Mr. Kennedy:: Mr. Chairman, I wish to speak about a matter-


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, if the hon. gentleman is going to speak on another subject I wonder if he would permit me to ask one question on the matter the minister has discussed. I should like to be assured by the minister that the government has no thought of receding from the solemn assurance given in this house by the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration to the Chinese community at the last session of parliament.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Well, Mr. Chairman, there has been no change. Any change would have to be announced by my colleague the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration.


John Whitney Pickersgill: The question I ask is whether the government is contemplating withdrawing the assurance that was given.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I do not know to what assurance my hon. friend refers. There were several aspects to the assurance, as I recall it, and I am not in a position to make a categorical reply to that question.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I will recall the assurance for the assistance of the minister. The assurance, and it was a very precise one, was that no one would be deported from Canada merely because he had given information that

was not exact if he was in fact a relative of someone living in this country.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I do not recall the statement of my colleague sufficiently clearly to be certain that my hon. friend has accurately summarized it. The intent of my colleague's statement was to make clear that persons who with respect to themselves or their immediate relatives may have given misinformation in order to bring themselves or their relatives here to Canada, not for the purpose of profit, would not be pushed around or prosecuted. I do, however, recall my colleague saying that in order to establish these and all the other facts it would be necessary for us to have the co-operation of these people and truthful statements from them. It is the lack of co-operation that concerns us at the present time.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I should not like to think, and I am sure the minister does not intend it to be thought, that he is seeking to secure co-operation by holding a kind of veiled threat over these people that the word of the government given in this house is going to be withdrawn.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Mr. Chairman, the word of the government, of course, stands. My hon. friend knows perfectly well that when the government makes statements with respect to situations such as this, based on an assumption that co-operation will be forthcoming, it is entitled to review the situation from time to time and to state its position in accordance with the developments so long as that position is stated clearly.


Cyril Frost Kennedy: Mr. Chairman, I wish to bring to the attention of the minister the matter of the enforcement of federal statutes as applied to harness racing. This sport is vigorously pursued, at least in the province of Nova Scotia, and at the present time the personnel of the nearby R.C.M.P. detachments who are specially trained are required to attend these races while they are in progress to enforce the statutes. This duty is in addition to their normal detachment duties. It can readily be seen that because races are often held on holidays and on other special occasions this imposes an additional burden, over and above normal duties, on a few constables.
I wonder whether the minister would look into the matter and see if the establishments of the nearby detachments could be increased so that the tour of duty of all personnel would be less onerous. I understand that these constables receive no extra remuneration for the additional hours they are required to serve.
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While I am on my feet may I also tell the minister that the R.C.M.P. are performing a splendid service in my area not only in law enforcement but also in the contribution they make in the various communities.


Mr. Herridge:: Mr. Chairman, I rise briefly to refer to a matter about which I spoke yesterday. Apparently radio and television reports created interest in the complaints made yesterday in this committee by one or two hon. members in respect to the activities of the security section of the R.C.M.P. My telephone has been ringing constantly this morning, and I have already had phone calls or visits from students at Ottawa universities. I listened very carefully to what they had to say, and these very fine young people were very concerned about things that were happening in their universities.
I was recently informed that a student at an Ottawa university was approached by a young R.C.M.P. constable and asked whether he or she knew of any students with communist leanings or radical tendencies. This student was asked to report on the activities of certain persons who were interested in the ban the bomb movement-I think that is the common term for it-and those who were interested in the activities of the C.C.F.-New Party club. Now, what do you think of that?


Mr. Pugh:: That is a logical conclusion.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: One of those students who visited me was particularly concerned about this question and is a member of a well known Ottawa family that has lived here a long time. This constable, in a rather aggressive way, tried to persuade this student to act as an informer on fellow students. It was brought to the attention of the constable that there are members of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police attending these universities, and he was asked "Why not use them?" His reply was to the effect, "Well, they are busy in other directions"; they wanted to get one of the students to do this. These students were asked to inform from time to time upon the activities of the persons in these groups to the constable in question. I am glad to say that they rejected this suggestion with scorn, because I think it is the wrong way to go about this sort of thing.
I rise again on their behalf to protest most vigorously these attempts to make informers, cads and stoolpigeons of our students in universities. I say this is the wrong way to go about it. It is not a proper thing to do, to ask a young student, regardless of the motive, to spy and inform on fellow students while going to university.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Mr. Chairman, my hon. friend has of course used a great many sensational words in his remarks, and I can only regret

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that the hon. member, who usually has such a high sense ol responsibility, should make these statements without giving me an opportunity to examine the matter to see whether there in any justification for what he says. These anonymous, unestablished, unidentified complaints which are blown up and puffed up in a sensational manner so often result in unfair criticism, and I am surprised that the hon. member should have made these remarks without any consultation with me or any effort to establish whether there was in fact any basis or justification for them.
I am not denying that there is concern, or may be concern, on the part of the members of the security and intelligence service of the R.C.M. Police about activities on university campuses. Nor can one deny that it is an avowed objective of communism to infiltrate universities. It is an avowed objective of Canadian communists to do exactly that. It is an avowed objective of Canadian communism to infiltrate a number of organizations whose purposes, though perfectly innocent and proper, they could subvert to their own ends if they were able to infiltrate them successfully and obtain control.
We would be negligent and open to criticism if we turned a blind eye to this situation and said "We are going to be embarrassed and criticized if we make any inquiries about this matter, so we had better let the activity carry on without any attempt to check it to see to what extent, if any, this infiltration has become effective and successful."
My hon. friend knows that although his party has itself openly disavowed the suggestion that there has been any infiltration of communism into it, there have been repeated attempts by the communists to identify themselves with the movement of which he is a member. We detest this, but it is a communist objective.
I am not in a position to do so, nor am I going to succumb to the temptation or persuasion to say that with respect to this, that or any other activity which we know the communists are attempting to infiltrate we will call our efforts off and cancel our inquiries simply because some people say, and say quite rightly, "This is an obviously innocent and desirable group of persons and it is wrong for you to be taking this interest in what goes on".
I said yesterday that we are not concerned about or suspicious of the motives or the genuine, conscientious purposes of the people who have formed these associations, or students generally at university. But when we know that communists, as a matter of policy, are attempting to infiltrate these associations, then it becomes the responsibility of the

security force to keep a check on them and to establish the extent to which that objective is being realized.
I am sorry it does not seem possible to make this sort of effort without giving rise to some criticism. I do not maintain that our men are perfect, that they will never make mistakes or perhaps ask the wrong questions; but I do ask that there should be some measure of understanding with respect to our security and intelligence efforts regarding communism in Canada. I ask for understanding of the task which is imposed upon our security forces.
Particularly I do suggest that where there may be a feeling on the part of any individual that an improper approach was made, or where word is received by members of parliament or others that improper approaches were made to them, these matters should be brought to my attention, because I am as anxious as anyone else that the work in this field, difficult enough as it is, should not be made more difficult by blunders. We are always anxious to improve our methods and do what we can to carry them out without offence to the public, but this responsibility is imposed upon us and we have to discharge it.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Chairman, the minister knows that I do not raise a question unless I am convinced there is some substance in it. I questioned these people very closely and took down their words very carefully. I am objecting to the wrong approach in this matter. Hon. members know that people do not like their names being used in matters of this kind, but I will go into this question further and see whether I can assist the minister to make certain there is a proper approach to this question.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Mr. Chairman, I would appreciate that co-operation. I have never maintained and never will maintain that we do not make mistakes, and we are anxious to know where mistakes have been made so that we may profit by them.


Mr. Wratten:: Mr. Chairman, this may be a small matter to raise in this committee, but I think it affects the prestige and the respect which the R.C.M. Police have across this country. I refer to the fact that they are now acting as meter maids at Malton airport. As I understand it, it costs some $2,000 a year to train an R.C.M.P. constable. Surely we can find some men who are over 50 or 55 years of age, who cannot find employment in other fields, who could very well carry out the work of supervising parking, checking cars and so on, at this airport. Chief constables all over the country are trying to get out of having

their men check the parking and carry out the tagging of cars, because they lose the respect of the public. Yet here we have members of a force which is recognized as second to none in the world acting as meter maids at Malton airport. I think it is a mistake and I hope it will be rectified.


Edmund Davie Fulton: In reply, Mr. Chairman, the situation is that at the request of the Department of Transport, and for very good reason in view of the increasing traffic through our airports, the R.C.M. Police within recent months have assumed responsibility for policing Department of Transport airports.
It is true that in the take-over period we have had to put a number of men on the airports to acquaint themselves with all the responsibilities that policing airports involve, and during this period it is true that a minimum number of these men are actually doing some of the traffic control and parking enforcement. Ultimately, however, the intention is to have simply one of our uniformed men in charge of that work and responsible for it. The work that my hon. friend has referred to, namely the actual checking of cars, putting tags on them and checking parking meters, will be carried out by the corps of commissionaires, with one of our uniformed men supervising that work as part of our responsibility for policing the airports of Canada. It is the intention that our men shall not continue to do this type of work, for the reason the hon. member has stated.


Jack Wratten: I understand there were older men doing this job but that they were let out when the R.C.M.P. took over. Are these men to be given back their jobs?


Edmund Davie Fulton: The intention is to have the corps of commissionaires made responsible for the physical work of checking the parking and parking meters.


Mr. Baldwin:: I should like to comment briefly on a practice which was prevalent at one time but which is now not so common. I refer to the procedure in connection with the prosecution of cases before the inferior courts, where the cases are not of such magnitude as to justify the province in providing counsel.
What often happens in the more remote areas or in the area of a detachment where there are only one or two men is this. When a complaint is made there will be an investigation by the N.C.O. or by a constable. Subsequently the same man may well serve the summons, and when the case comes before the magistrate the same N.C.O. or the same constable will appear and act as counsel in 90205-6-388
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the sense that he examines witnesses for the crown and cross-examines witnesses for the defence.
That is all right, but what I think is wrong is the situation where, having done that, the same constable or N.C.O. goes into the witness box and gives evidence. As I say, I think that practice is not very common today;
I have noticed a considerable lessening of the number of cases in which that procedure occurs, and it may well be that instructions have gone out to this effect.
The minister, as a member of the legal profession, will bear with me when I say that when a member of the legal profession acting as counsel takes off his gown and steps into the box to give evidence, it must only be in extraordinary circumstances that he does so. Bearing in mind that it is in the inferior courts where the majority of the people of this country make their first contact with the administration of justice, I do not think the practice to which I have referred makes a good impression. I realize that it is not as prevalent as it was, but I hope instructions can be given so that it is eliminated altogether except when it is essential that the practice be followed.
Having said that, I should like to add a word of tribute. For the last 35 years I have been daily engaged in actions in which I have acted for the defence. I have fought the good fight against the R.C.M.P. in a great many cases, and I hope I shall continue to do so. I may say that in my own district we have a situation where one officer and I think 39 N.C.O.'s and other ranks are responsible for an area of 70,000 square miles containing 75,000 people. They carry on a great deal of work for the province, and they act as police for many of the smaller municipalities. When one relates the number of men employed to the population in the area and compares that number with the number of policemen required in the larger centres and the metropolitan areas, it is obvious that they are doing a tremendous job. I make this comment having in mind that my contacts with the R.CjM.P. have always been as counsel for the defence, and it cannot be said I am prejudiced.
Bearing in mind that the force does this good work, may I point out that the construction of improved highways through our country is leading to a situation where more men may be required for patrol. There have been a number of fatal accidents in the last two or three years and, unfortunately, this good road, this symbol of civilization, goes hand in hand with a great deal of slaughter of people in traffic accidents. I hope some consideration may be given to providing extra men

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where required for highway patrol duty on the new highways which are being built.
One final point. I have known many members of the force in the old days, and I know the pension conditions which prevail for members of the force who retired many years ago. I hope some consideration may be given to increasing those pensions, many of which were fixed in days when conditions differed a great deal, in order to bring them into line with the inflated costs of the present day.


Edmund Davie Fulton: The hon. member for Col-chester-Hants asked me about the enforcement of race track betting laws, and drew attention to the number of extra hours members of the force responsible for this work in his area have to put in. This is a constant problem as far as we are concerned, and I would appreciate the support of all hon. members in endeavouring to get sufficient personnel to solve it effectively. We find it is not always easy to get agreement to our requests for increases in establishments. This is a matter of which we are aware, however, and I am constantly trying to get sufficient personnel to enable us to do all the jobs which we have to do, efficiently and without placing an undue burden on our personnel. But the day that happens and we find ourselves with an adequate establishment to do everything we are called upon to do, I think we shall see ourselves translated to another world. In the meantime I shall do my best to obtain the establishment we need.
The question raised by the hon. member for Peace River regarding personnel being on occasion both prosecutors and witnesses is an important and difficult one. I can tell the hon. member without equivocation that this is never undertaken as a matter of policy. As far as the mounted police are concerned as a federal force, we are opposed to it.
However, in eight of the ten provinces we are acting as a force under contract to the province. Conditions vary from province to province, and the situation is that in some regions arrangements are not made for the services of crown prosecutors. As a result we find a situation where the police are responsible both for conducting the prosecution and for giving evidence. Every effort is made to avoid putting the officer conducting the case in the position of having to enter the witness box and give evidence in the same case, but every now and then, because of the problem of personnel, it may be that the constable who has to give evidence is

the only one available to conduct the case. It may be that his colleague has been required for other duty.
We do not like this situation. We are in constant communication with the provinces urging them to make crown prosecutors available so these circumstances shall not arise. In Manitoba we have a generally happy situation in this respect. In Saskatchewan the situation is not at all the same; it is not at all happy, because we have been unable to persuade the Saskatchewan government that they should provide crown prosecutors. In British Columbia the situation varies. There are detachments where occasionally the same member of the force has to give evidence and conduct the case. We try to avoid the situation whenever we can, and we shall continue to bring pressure on the provinces for their assistance in solving this difficulty by providing adequate numbers of crown prosecutors.


William Arnold Peters: I wish to say something on this question of security. It seems to me that the minister has done just about what his department has done in this field. I have always been interested in this matter of security because I have felt that the activities of the department in this regard cover a multitude of sins. I feel that when we are discussing the department's activities regarding the communist threat, in one way or another, we must keep two or three things in mind. First, communism in Canada is not illegal. Second, anyone who does admit publicly that he is a communist obviously is not in a position to be a threat as a spy.
I think the department uses this communist threat as an excuse and cover up for a multitude of sins committed in relation to security rights of individuals. I think the attitude of many members of that force in dealing with this communist business is expressed quite well in an article which appeared in the Ottawa Journal of June 7, 1961 under the heading "Below the Hill". The subject matter of this article is similar to that raised in a question asked a few moments ago regarding members of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police on duty at airports. I should like to quote the article, which reads as follows:
Mrs. Nora McAuley, 1309 Woodside Drive, is the latest victim of that gobbledygook and high-handed officialese so prevalent at the new Uplands air terminal. Her husband was flying to the north country Monday so Mrs. McAuley and her three young children drove with him to the terminal to wave goodbye. As they stopped in front of the rotunda, a commissionaire told Mr. McAuley that he couldn't help his wife getting the children out of the car "because you can't park here." When explanations failed, Mr. McAuley, who had little

time to catch his plane, went to get the baggage weighed. His wife and the kids decided to drive away without saying goodbye.
But oh no. The commissionaire had by this time summoned a mountie who demanded to know what Mrs. McAuley was doing at the airport. She told him. Who was her husband, the mountie demanded. Her husband was her husband, said Mrs. McAuley. Let me see your driver's licence, demanded the mountie. More questions. Mrs. McAuley tried to explain that she was leaving anyway. More questions. At last she broke into tears.
"Oh, all right," said the law. "You can go now."
That describes the type of thing that happens in the security field, only it is much more serious. The minister explained yesterday the educational advantages which were being given to some members of the R.C.M. Police. I should be very surprised to find that many of these individuals involved in the political investigation field are qualified to make any assessment of any information obtained. I understand that spying is a very complicated business, and that there are only a few individuals who are efficient in detecting spying activities.
Much of this political security work is being carried out in universities and in the mining communities of northern Ontario. There are probably more special officers of the R.C.M.P. security section per capita in those areas than anywhere else. Those individuals are questioning people, many of whom reply that they are communists but who actually are no more communistic than the majority of the members of this House of Commons. These people are individuals who at one time were workers in organizations like the "Wobblies" who came in contact with individuals who suggested that anyone who joined a union or labour organization was a communist. Many of these people have belonged to these organizations for 30 or 40 years and have no objection to being called communists because they do not have the faintest notion of the political implications.
It seems to me if the department wishes to increase its strength in this field in order to become an overweighted monster, it can do so through the activities which are now taking place. I suggest that if we are so violently opposed to communism, we should outlaw it and attempt to eliminate it in this country. I do not believe we should be successful in that way, because this would create an increase in communism in this country.
I suggest that communism is absolutely no threat as a political philosophy at the present time, nor will it be a threat as long as Canadians have an opportunity to improve their standard of living and continue to enjoy the benefits they are now enjoying. I suggest that communism is a threat only in countries such as those in South America, 90205-6-388J
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where the people are oppressed and suffer conditions of poverty, and are not able to even hope to change their situation under the forms of government which now exist. I suggest those are the countries and conditions in which communism flourishes.
I have had some experience with communist organization, having been involved in the mining field for some years. At one time the workers were represented by an organization considered to be communistic. I personally joined another organization which fought with that other organization for a considerable length of time. We know that the people who are interested in promoting communism in unions follow a certain pattern. I suggest it is possible, after considerable study, to recognize the line which will be followed by those people, and to know in advance the changes which will be made. I suggest that these facts are well known to the officials of the minister's department.
Surely, therefore, it is not necessary to continue this type of activity in towns like Kirkland Lake, Timmins and Sudbury, where every time an individual purchases a new antenna for a radio the local R.C.M.P. undercover agent travels around the neighbourhood asking such questions as "Why is the individual putting up such a high tower?" "What kind of short wave radio receiver does the individual have?" "What do the neighbours think he might be listening to?" and many other similar silly questions. I suggest if the officer wishes to find the answers to these questions he would be much more likely to accomplish his purposes by directing them to the individual himself or the individual who sold him the radio and antenna in the first place. I suggest that the individual is perhaps listening to police calls, or short-wave broadcasts in a language with which he is more familiar than that which is used by the local radio stations. I suggest these things do happen, and accomplish nothing in the way of security in this country, but only make a lot of people angry, including myself.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


William Arnold Peters: You may go ahead and laugh but I suggest that many members of this house have been investigated by this security group at one time or another.


Edmund Davie Fulton: We cannot help but laugh when you talk such nonsense as you have been talking in regard to radio aerials.


William Arnold Peters: The minister may know a great deal about the activities of his department, but I do not think he knows as much as he thinks he does. I suggest many things are happening in his department of which he

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is completely unaware. As an example, he may have noticed an individual sitting in the member's gallery for quite some time; he is not here now. I suggest he is not aware of all the activities of that individual. However, I do not think much can be gained by this exchange of pleasantries between the minister and myself.
I am interested in the situation which exists in this field, and feel that nothing will be accomplished or changed unless we make some comment about it. I have not as yet seen any indication as to how many people are involved in the work of this particular section, nor have I heard any indication as to what has been done in relation to the supposed situation which exists. Surely the minister should present a resume of the extent of communism in Canada today. In some ridings communist candidates have run in the elections and, as a result, the number of supporters is known. We know the number is very limited. On several occasions I have had a communist candidate run against me, and on those occasions I was aware of the number of supporters he had. I suggest that if we are going to accomplish anything in this field we must publicize the dangers involved in communism and the rate of its growth in Canada. In that way perhaps something could be done to prevent it spreading.
It is quite easy for people to get up and say that unions have communists in their ranks. Sometimes this is true, but most of the unions in this country have methods of weeding out the communists once they find out who they are. Most unions have clauses in their membership forms that prevent communists from holding any office.
These things are not said by the department. The minister does not go around and say that the unions are taking whatever steps they can to eliminate the problem. A few minutes ago he mentioned my own political party. In our membership form that every member must sign there is a clause which states that he is not a member of any other political party. This does not really mean that we do not want a Conservative to join the C.C.F. It does not mean that we do not want a Liberal to join the C.C.F. What it really means is that if a communist gets into our organization and we find out about it, we want to be able to throw him out.
We do this occasionally. I do not think the Conservatives throw them out, or the Liberals either for that matter. We do, and we use this method of doing it. When the minister says there have been communists in our

party, that is true. There have been communists in the C.C.F. party, but we have publicly thrown them out on a number of occasions.
The unions also have fought the communists and thrown them out of their organizations. In the mining area around Timmins, where I have been connected with union activities, we have spent a great deal of our own money to do this. We have spent a great deal of time and effort in this regard. But the point is that nothing is ever said about the work these organizations do to get rid of communists. The menace, if you wish to call it that, is contained. No; it is much easier to get up and say, as some of the ministers have said, "Let us destroy the ban the bomb organization because there may be some communists in it".


Mr. Graffiey:: Who said that? Be specific and responsible. Who said it?


An hon. Member:: He could not be either.


William Heward Grafftey: Who said it? Don't just stand there. That is a serious charge.


William Arnold Peters: Stand up and ask a question if you wish to do so.


David Vaughan Pugh: I will ask a question. Would the hon. member name the ministers who said "We will destroy the ban the bomb movement"?


William Arnold Peters: Maybe I should not have said "destroy". I am referring to the discussion that has taken place in the house, for instance, in relation to the statement made by the Minister of National Defence to the reserve services in Winnipeg. I refer both to what was said there and the answers that have been given to questions about the matter.


Mr. Thrasher:: It has no relation to the argument going on today.


William Arnold Peters: It has to this extent. If there is a communist subversive movement which is dangerous to Canada in connection with this organization I am sure the branch would have taken a look at it, just as they have in the case of many other organizations. All I am saying is that much more could be done if the department were willing to help these organizations rid themselves of any communist influence. It does not seem to me that they are doing this as long as these matters are kept under cover. This branch is quite likely to grow in numbers because if you appoint one person to check on somebody's politics you have to assign two people to watch the first man to see that he is doing what he was supposed to do and is doing it in the proper manner. If this branch is not open to scrutiny, it can grow considerably.

In the mines we always knew that there were men working with us who were in fact employees of the management. We knew this and nobody seemed to care. If a man could pick up an extra $10 or $20 doing this kind of work then it was all the better for him. Nobody was particularly worried about it. Those miners who were communists admitted that they were, and quite often when they said they were communists they did not have the faintest idea what communism meant. In this regard I have known one or two cases of people who, after having been in Canada for 20 or 30 years, went back to their homelands and then moved heaven and earth to try to get back to Canada because they found they were more rebellious under the regime in their home country than they were under the regime in this country. They were really malcontents rather than people having any particular political philosophy.
I think some change of attitude should take place with regard to the security branch. It is all right for the branch to grow and do its work under cover, but I think the minister should occasionally make a report as to the dangers, because communism is a very different form of politics from any to which we are accustomed. As I understand the communist philosophy, the object is to establish an international organization that will control the world on an international basis. This is completely foreign to any other political philosophy of which I am aware. For this reason I think the minister and the department could assist the Canadian people considerably if they would stop creating a bogey as to this matter and really present the facts as they are. As long as people are kept in the dark it will be very difficult to find out what is going on, and this will lead to abuses and placing more emphasis on the situation than it really deserves.
I agree that the minister has a responsibility in this regard in that he has to exercise considerable discretion, but I think he will agree with me that the people who gather this information must be highly trained and skilled and be completely versed in the political aspect of their duties. I suggest that more education along this line is required than many of these men now have. It may be that this information should not be assessed by the R.C.M.P., as the minister says, and that in the security field the function of the R.C.M.P. is to gather facts and not to pass judgment on those facts. That responsibility rests elsewhere, primarily with the government.
This is the crux of the whole matter, Mr. Chairman. If the information obtained is not factual, if it is the pipe dream of some constable who thinks he has discovered a real
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hot spy ring because somebody has erected an abnormally high radio antenna, the facts will then be presented in such a manner as to convey an altogether wrong impression to people in the government. It is for this reason that I think more discretion should be exercised. Frankly, I think more information should be given as to what the threat is in Canada, how to fight it properly and in what manner the general public can be of assistance. The electors of Canada can solve the problem and eliminate whatever threat the communist party may pose in a political sense and so far as the rights that Canadians now enjoy are concerned. It seems to me that as long as communism is legal we are going to have to admit that not everyone who says he supports the communist party is a dangerous person, but may be simply supporting a particular political party.
There is some difference between these people and those who are operating in what we would call the spying field, obtaining information for the use of other countries. I suggest, as a result of my limited experience in this field, that most of the people who talk about communism have not the faintest notion what it is. Communism has been a bogey that has been thrown out. I am reminded of the story we used to have in primary school about crying wolf too often, and then nobody will listen.


Edmund Davie Fulton: May I attempt to deal with some of the things that have been said, because if they go unanswered the impression may be created that there is no answer. The hon. member, if he reflects and will follow me, I believe will agree that he has indulged in so many exaggerations on the one hand, and inconsistencies on the other, that it is difficult to know what accusations he is trying to make.
The hon. member started out by saying there is no communist threat in Canada; that this was all nonsense; that we were really making too much out of this security and intelligence work. A little later he was saying that there is a communist threat and that the greatest credit should be given to the unions and to his own party for their work in finding out the communists and throwing them out of their movement.
It is difficult to know, therefore, what point of view the hon. member presents. If communists are persons whom we should ignore; if we should do nothing about checking on them, then I find it difficult to understand why he gives so much credit to the unions and his own party when they find communists within their ranks and throw them out. I happen to agree with the unions, and with the point of view of his party, when

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they say communists should not be allowed to infiltrate. I hope, therefore, that this last position of the hon. member is his true position; that he will agree that communism is a threat, and that Canada is entitled, indeed has an obligation, to protect herself against that threat and find out the extent and effectiveness of the threat.
Now, let me emphasize that in respect of security and intelligence, Canada runs no espionage service. Canada runs only a counterintelligence service. The work of the security and intelligence branch in Canada is exclusively confined to counter-intelligence. I doubt if any reasonable Canadian would deny that Canada is entitled to protect herself against espionage and, therefore, is entitled to take such proper measures as can be taken to determine the extent of the threat of espionage and of subversive movements within our midst.
In case there should be any doubt as to whether these communists are a threat, let me refer my hon. friend and the committee to the recent case in the United Kingdom. Canadian passports came to light in that case, and it took our highly competent, highly equipped and well staffed laboratory three days of intensive study to determine whether or not they were forgeries. I am advised that the proper expression would be that the whole documents were counterfeit. I do not want to give any misinformation here, and what I wish to say is that the Canadian passports had been so skilfully counterfeited that unless they were submitted to the crime detection laboratory for examination, no one could detect that they were counterfeit.
1 could cite a number of other cases, but I should like to emphasize that these passports were in the possession of persons who were convicted of espionage in circumstances which establish that there was a highly organized and, up to that time, successful espionage ring. These and other circumstances known to us, some of which have been made public and some of which should not be made public, are sufficient proof if proof were wanted that there is an organized subversive effort going on in Canada, which is part of an international plan of espionage.
As I say, I give full credit to organizations such as the hon. member's own party with respect to their detection and ejection of communists from their movement. I have given the same credit to the unions. I would say that this portion of his remarks simply establishes the necessity for the security and intelligence work which is being carried out. The hon. member did, unfortunately, indulge in some exaggeration which created a completely wrong impression. Let us take, for

instance, the suggestion he made that in a town like Timmins or Kirkland Lake the Royal Canadian Mounted Police investigated every case where an aerial was put up. This is what my hon. friend said, and he criticized us because he said we were doing such ridiculous things, going around making inquiries of the neighbours and at the store where the aerial was purchased. The reason we laughed was that the hon. member was talking nonsense.
Let me discuss what may happen. I would doubt very much whether such investigations were made in the course of security and intelligence work. I do not deny that there may have been some. Certainly I admit that such investigations are made from time to time. However, it must be remembered that we are responsible for investigations carried out on behalf of the Department of Transport under their act and regulations. These regulations state that a person must have a licence before he can operate a transmitting station. If we see an unusually high aerial being erected, this may well be used for the purpose of transmission. It is not related at all to security and intelligence, but a routine inquiry might have been made under the responsibility we have to ensure that there are no unlicensed transmitting sets being installed and operated in Canada.
The danger of an unbalanced view being taken of these things does not rest, by any means, upon the administration alone. I suggest that my hon. friend has clearly illustrated that there is an unbalanced and unduly suspicious mind in other quarters, as well as undue prejudice against the activities of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, particularly the security and intelligence branch. It is true there are some people, you know, who epitomize that well known expression of seeing a communist under every bed. This is, of course, stupid and exaggerated. There are, on the other hand, people who see a Royal Canadian Mounted policeman under every bed, and I suggest this is equally stupid and exaggerated thinking.
My hon. friend has suggested that the minister and the department are trying to create an overweight monster. I can assure my hon. friend, speaking personally, that my efforts are all the other way. Sometimes I have not been completely successful, and I have taken steps to deal with it. Certainly I have no desire to create or to be any overweight monster, and 1 have exerted every effort to ensure that security or intelligence work would not get out of hand. As I said earlier, we will not be able to carry out this or any other branch of police work without occasionally making mistakes. I think I am entitled to ask, however, that mistakes or alleged mistakes be drawn to our attention first, so

we can investigate them to ascertain whether there is anything that should be done to improve our methods.
I am sure the hon. member will agree, if he considers and analyses what he has said, that there have been inconsistencies in his complaints because of the credit he gives to those who take steps to eject communists from their own organizations, and he will agree that in fact there is a communist threat. He will agree that the government of Canada, through its security forces, have as much, indeed greater, responsibility than his own party and the labour unions to find out where the communists are, what they are doing and prevent them from doing harm, to the extent that that is possible.


William Arnold Peters: With respect to the difference of opinion concerning the subjects dealt with in my remarks, let me say that it was not my intention in the first portion of my comments to indicate that there was a threat. I was relating my remarks to what the minister said yesterday. When asked how many communists there are in Canada the minister said, using Tim Buck's own figure, there are 3,000. If we multiplied that number by one hundred there would be no political problem-


Mr. Broome:: The hon. member must be crazy.


William Arnold Peters: Well, if there were 300,000 communists how would that affect federal elections in Canada? I appreciate the minister's position. I feel that he made an honest assessment of the situation. My remarks related to the figure of 3,000 communists to which he referred. I do not think that is any threat in a political sense. I do not feel that the communists are going to form the government of Canada tomorrow or in the immediate future. With respect to antennae, I did not say that every time one went up-


Edmund Davie Fulton: Unfortunately my hon. friend did say that. That is why I felt it necessary to correct him.


William Arnold Peters: I did not intend to say that, and if I did I should correct that statement. The hon. member for Timmins brought a case to my attention. He lives next door to a fellow who put up a fairly high antenna and an investigation was made. In a community the size of Timmins there would be only a limited number of retail outlets selling long and short wave equipment. It would not have been difficult to inquire from the purchase source about the type of equipment bought, and an investigation would not have been necessary. I have no quarrel with the minister's remarks.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I wish to deal with one other matter, Mr. Chairman, because I feel the
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record should be set straight. I refer to the incident at the airport in Ottawa. I am advised that because of the point at which this vehicle was parked it was necessary to make an effort to move it. The vehicle could not be permitted to remain there because it was obstructing traffic. I am also advised that our member spoke politely to the lady in question, and upon being informed that she was ill he quickly withdrew and the vehicle was moved. I am also informed that the husband of the lady in question has indicated that he is perfectly satisfied with the approach, attitude and conduct of our member.


William Arnold Peters: I raised it because of what was stated in a newspaper article. I had an almost identical experience myself.


Edmund Davie Fulton: My point is that if my hon. friend had made inquiries of me or the commissioner he would have received a full explanation. It is well known that newspapers sometimes publish things they do not themselves check because they make good news at the time. Newspapers are interested in circulation, and reporters are busy and do not always have time to check the stories before they publish them. I do not wish to suggest that members of parliament are not also busy, but one might expect that they would be a little more inclined to check stories before repeating them.


Mr. Kindt:: Mr. Chairman, I should like to bring this discussion back down to the level of the common, ordinary man and speak about something that is of vital interest in my riding. I see that the hour for the luncheon recess is approaching. Like other hon. members of the committee I have been sitting here for hours listening to wrangling about communism and other irrelevant matters at a time when we should have been discussing estimates pertaining to the R.C.M.P. and the functions they perform.
I compliment the R.C.M.P. on the splendid work they are doing. My remarks are intended to be constructive, and I offer them for the purpose of assisting and helping the R.C.M.P. I represent the Macleod riding in western Canada which is the cradle of the cattle ranching industry and especially all along the foothills area of the Rockies. The deployment of R.C.M.P. personnel in small nuclei in communities such as Fort Macleod, Claresholm, High River and others is a pattern which may fit in with the requirements of other parts of the country, but it does not meet the requirements of this area in terms of the proper administration of police work.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Would the hon. gentleman permit a question?

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Lawrence Elliott Kindt: I will when I am through. My time is just about up.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Oh, oh.


Lawrence Elliott Kindt: I suggest, sir, that we call it one o'clock. When .we resume and I have completed my remarks I shall be pleased to answer any questions the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate might wish to raise.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I was just going to ask, Mr. Chairman, whether the hon. member was bringing the discussion down to the level of the bull.


Lawrence Elliott Kindt: No, I was bringing it down to the level of the tail end of a codfish and applying it to the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate.


Mr. Spencer:: Mr. Chairman, before this item carries-


Lawrence Elliott Kindt: Mr. Chairman, I called it one o'clock.


Jacques Flynn: It is not one o'clock.


John Whitney Pickersgill: It is not one o'clock yet.


Lawrence Elliott Kindt: I wish to continue my remarks when we resume.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Oh, no; not more of the same.


Jacques Flynn: I see that it is one o'clock now.
At one o'clock the committee took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The committee resumed at 2.30 p.m.
Lawrence Elliott Kindt: Mr. Chairman, in resuming my remarks which were under way just before the lunch hour I shall only say a few additional words. As I have mentioned, these remarks are made in the spirit of being helpful.
Before the luncheon adjournment I had been talking about police protection in the area which I represent. I had mentioned- and if I did not, I intended to do so-that there are police detachments at Fort Macleod, Claresholm and High River. I live in the area south of High River and northwest of Nan-ton. This area is out in the country.
The people of this area have been asking me for the past two years why there is not adequate police protection in the area. The distance between Claresholm and High River is about 50 miles, and if police protection is required, say at Connemara or Nan-ton, the police detachment, which is some 30 miles or more away at Claresholm, must be notified.

To give an illustration of the point I am attempting to make, at Connemara thieves broke into the United Grain Growers elevator about a month and a half ago. The theft took place during the night when the agent was not on duty, and when he returned to duty the next morning he found that the place had been broken into. He phoned the police detachment at Claresholm, but because of the pressure of other duties I suppose, or for some other reason, they did not get there until three o'clock in the afternoon. I could illustrate this point by mentioning other situations. All I am trying to say is that I think if the deployment of the men of the police force was examined, a better coverage of police protection could be provided in a given area without employing additional personnel.
I am asking the Department of Justice and the police force to re-examine this matter. In this particular area, as I mentioned this morning, there is a long stretch of foothill country running from away west and southwest of High River up as far as Banff, and then in the other direction clear down to the United States boundary line. In that area there is a large cattle ranching industry. The cattle ranchers who are living in the area are the most law-abiding citizens in Canada, but the odd thief comes around and butchers an animal.
What I wish to say is that if we had a little better coverage and if the police force that is now in that area were re-examined from the point of view of deployment, I think the people would be more satisfied because they would be given better police protection.
There are a few criticisms of this deployment that I might just as well mention. Some people say they never see a policeman out in the country; they are always going up and down the roads, two in a car. I have brought this to the attention of the Minister of Justice previously and nothing has happened. These people are criticizing the deployment of police personnel in relation to the amount of coverage which they would normally expect the police force to give.
It is quite possible that in terms of training and so on, it is necessary at times for two policemen to ride in a car, but as a general, day after day practice, it has opened the door to a pertain amount of criticism by local people. For this reason I should like the department to re-examine this particular aspect of the work of the police force.
There is another problem which I have raised before. At Waterton lakes there is a very large tourist trade in the summertime. People visit this area from the United States and other parts of Canada; in fact, they come in from all parts of the continent and the

world. I think it would be one of the finest advertisements for Canada if the police there were to wear scarlet uniforms.
I also suggest that the town police of Fort Macleod, where the old fort is situated, should be required to wear scarlet uniforms. This police force is paid for by the town of Fort Macleod and they police the town. The old fort has been resurrected there and people visit it by the thousands during the summertime. It is a replica of the original fort which the Royal Northwest Mounted Police established in 1874. I think that if any place in western Canada is appropriate for the wearing of scarlet uniforms by the police, it is the museum and fort at Fort Macleod.
Many tourists visit the fort. They do not see the scarlet uniform, and of course it is always a subject for questioning. One of the arguments used by those who oppose this suggestion is, "Well, it is the summertime; it is uncomfortable to wear the scarlet uniform. It is costly. You would not expect them to wear it on duty". They now call it a dress suit. Let me say that the traditional uniform has a particular place in the memory of the people of western Canada. The Royal Northwest Mounted Police policed that country for years and wore this same uniform so it is a bit late for anyone to begin arguing that it is uncomfortable to wear in the summer. Another argument against it is that it is warm. Well, it is not particularly warm at Waterton lakes, and even at Fort Macleod it is only warm for a few hours during the heat of the day. The scarlet uniform is worn by officers of the R.C.M.P. outside the parliament buildings. Advantage is being taken of it there for the benefit of the tourist trade. I am not asking for anything new. I am asking for something which the people out there have asked me to ask for, and I should like the minister to give this request his earnest and affirmative consideration.
I want to pay a compliment to the police officers operating in my area. The quality of the personnel who have been selected to work in that part of the country is very high. I think they are out to do a good job. Perhaps some of the weaknesses of the R.C.M.P. are the responsibility of the upper echelon. I would ask them not to be so resistant to the suggestions which are made, and to reexamine some of the things they are doing with a view to improving the effectiveness of the force in different parts of the dominion and particularly in the constituency which I represent.


Edwin William Brunsden: Would the hon. member permit a question? Is part of Waterton lakes in his constituency?
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Lawrence Elliott Kindt: Yes, the Waterton lakes west of the fifth meridian are in my constituency. I might add that the hon. member for Lethbridge has the townsites and I have the fishing area. He has the problems and I have the pleasure.


Harold Edward Winch: There is one matter which I should like to raise and upon which I should like to hear a comment by the minister. I am asking the commissioner of the R.C.M. Police, through the Minister of Justice, if he can give us any information on R.C.M.P. planning as a result of the experience gained during Tocsin 61. On this civil defence exercise two backbenchers, one from the Liberal party, and myself, were privileged to be present. I am speaking only in relation to the R.C.M.P. phase of that exercise. With the exception of the room where the cabinet or the privy council met, the member who represented the Liberal party and myself were allowed to move everywhere we wished and to ask all the questions we wished. I found it most interesting, especially as far as the R.C.M. Police are concerned.
I am certain that the commissioner will remember that in the course of this realistic simulation of the bombing of Canada, he received, in his underground shelter during the course of that exercise, a message from the commissioner of the Ontario provincial police saying that half his men had become casualties and calling for assistance from the R.C.M.P. But the situation was that the R.C.M.P. had themselves lost two thirds of their number through casualties. The commissioner will remember that I was at his desk at that time. I give this as an indication of the situation which developed during this exercise, and on the basis of this situation I ask the minister to tell us what plans are being prepared to carry on the work and the responsibility of the R.C.M.P. should such a situation become a reality.
I admit this is a strange way in which to introduce this question, but the commissioner was there, together with his two assistants, and so was I. The exercise was designed to be a realistic study of survival possibilities and the situation which I have described is the one with which the commissioner found himself faced at his table at that underground point at Petawawa when the message came to him.


Ernest James Broome: Before the minister answers that question I should like to ask another one. Can he give us any information about the use by the R.C.M.P. of writs of assistance? Can he tell us whether their use is restricted to certain divisions of the R.C.M.P. or whether all officers carry such documents

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with them. I recall, several years ago, reading an editorial which appeared in a British Columbia newspaper regarding an incident where an R.C.M.P. officer suspecting, after finding a stolen car, that the person who stole it was in a certain house, forced his way into that house and checked everyone in it.
I am concerned about these writs of assistance. I think bureaucracy can look after itself, but ordinary citizens need protection against the arbitrary use of such powers and that is why I am asking this question, although, of course, we all know that the police do need power in order to carry out their responsibilities. I think that the use of such instruments and powers should be very closely watched by those individuals who are in charge of the R.C.M. Police and the other forces which use these instruments and powers. I have the greatest respect and admiration for the R.C.M. Police and think that it is a magnificent body doing wonderful work. However, it is composed of individuals who are human and fallible, and unfortunate incidents do occur.
Finally, the last question I wish to ask is this. Where forcible entry is made and damage is done, and when no conviction is obtained, what recourse do individuals have to recover the cost of damages which have been incurred?


Mr. Bigg:: Mr. Chairman, as the last surviving ex-member of the R.C.M.P. in this house I should like to say a word or two about the force. We very often hear that the mounted police force is not the outfit it used to be. I do not think it is. I think it gets better year by year. Since I retired after 23 years service, some three years ago I have seen many changes made for the betterment of the force. I should like to refer in particular to the present commissioner, who is certainly one of the finest members ever produced by the force. I say that advisedly because he is a man who has come up through the ranks. His success in this regard is an indication to each recruit who joins the mounted police force that the highest positions are open to him if he combines his ambition with the necessary toil.
I recently had the privilege of witnessing a passing out parade at Rockcliffe. The excellent condition and the look of high morale on the faces of those individuals, particularly at this time when so much emphasis is being placed on physical fitness in this country, should be an inspiration to any young Canadian entertaining the idea of joining this force. I think the condition of those young men, who have completed their training, should be an inspiration to all the young 
people of this country who seek a high degree of physical fitness, and I suggest the high standard of the force should be emulated by all training establishments and schools across this country. I think the force generally, and those individuals in charge of it from the minister down to the fine N.C.O.'s, should be commended for the excellent work that is being done.
An efficient force of this kind operated and controlled by the government cannot be expected to maintain this excellent work without money. I know from experience that those in charge of this force must have adequate financial resources in order to implement the projects which they have very carefully thought out, and I know they have pared their expenses to the bone before asking for the appropriation. I know that those who make up the estimates give meticulous care to make sure that the taxpayers' money will not be wasted and, when they ask for expenditures, they are not subject to Parkinson's law but are asking for money which is absolutely essential. When the minister submits his full request for appropriation for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police I should like to appeal to all members of this committee to give unanimous support to the request for an appropriation to underwrite the costs of this important and well-carried out work. This department gives the taxpayer 100 cents for his dollar.


Norman Leonard Spencer: 
Edwin William Brunsden: Mr. Chairman, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police were the original law enforcement body in western Canada. As one among a number of hon. members who knew the prairies in the earlier days, let me say that I appreciate fully the part that the force played. Reference has been made to the situation with regard to customs examination and also the wearing of scarlet uniforms, but originally the role of the force was to bring law and order to western Canada.
I should like to say to the minister, and through him to the commissioner, that in our part of the country we have the highest regard for the force and for its leadership. It is very easy to talk about scarlet uniforms or about entry into Canada through the customs ports. I suggest sincerely that these matters are not really germane to the role of the force. I do not believe the R.C.M.P. should be relegated to the role of undercover men. I believe the force should be preserved for their own particular role and that role in my opinion is the one they filled originally when the force was created late in the last century, to preserve law and order, which they have done in a magnificent way.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I will deal with the questions that have been raised since I replied just before lunch. The hon. member for Macleod drew to the attention of the committee the fact that he has requested of us on a number of occasions that we make some changes in the points at which men are stationed. I must point out to him that the question of the organization and location of detachments is under constant review at headquarters. It is also under constant review at the headquarters in each province and, of course, where we operate as the provincial police

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force under contract it is under constant review by the attorney general of the province. Under these latter circumstances the primary responsibility in determining where detachments will be located and how they will be manned is that of the attorney general of the province.
It is just not possible for us to comply with every request that is made. From the police point of view such a request is looked at first having in mind efficiency of administration and policing. It is also a matter on which we are bound to consult with the attorney general where we are operating as the provincial force under contract as in Alberta. I can only suggest that probably in this case the proper place to start is with the attorney general of the province to get his view and/or recommendation on the change.
With regard to the wearing of the scarlet tunic by members of the detachment in Macleod, I must point out that they are doing the work of a municipal force under contract with the municipality. They are there as a municipal police force to do police work and not to be in their red tunics as a tourist or historic attraction. I am advised that we have had no request from the municipality of Macleod, with whom, as I say, we have a contract, for a change in the uniform or for our men to wear scarlet tunics in the summer or at any other time. On ceremonial occasions they will, of course, appear in their scarlet tunics, but on all other occasions and during all other times they are there because they are doing the work of a municipal police force under contract, and will be wearing their working uniform.
The situation on parliament hill is quite different. Here they are not doing the work of a straight police detachment. They are in no way similar to the detachment stationed at Macleod under contract. While I have to give this answer now and do not hesitate to give it, I hope it will not be taken as meaning that we are inflexible. Should the situation change at any time or should other considerations be laid before us, we will consider every request in that light but they must be considered first from the point of view of the efficient discharge of the function which the police are there to discharge.
The hon. member for Vancouver East asked me about the record as revealed by exercise Tocsin in 1961. He drew to our attention that for exercise purposes it was reported that two thirds of the members of the force were wiped out or rendered ineffective. The hon. member must realize, of course, that for exercise purposes Tocsin was designed to produce the maximum damage in Canada because it

was desired to exercise all regional headquarters as well as the central government headquarters. I am not saying that under no circumstances would there be attacks as heavy and effective as this was represented to be for exercise purposes, but I am simply saying that for the purpose of the exercise the narrative assumed very heavy and very effective attacks on practically every part of Canada. Under these circumstances there is no question but that the casualties would have been of the order which operationally the commissioner assumed as a result of the reports that came in.
The only answer we have and the only answer we can see-and we are planning on this basis now bearing this possibility in mind-is the establishment of auxiliaries and reserves in the larger centres. Then, in the event of damage from hostilities we would have a force in reserve that could quickly be sent in to take the place of the casualties. We cannot maintain these auxiliaries and reserves as an actual part of the strength of the force in advance of hostilities but arrangements must be made in advance so that we can call them up immediately to take the place of the casualties and to undertake some of the extra work which will fall upon the force in any event in time of war.
The hon. member for Vancouver South asked me about the number of men who would be in possession of writs of assistance. The answer to that is, a very limited number of senior personnel are in possession of writs of assistance and these personnel are confined to the drug squads and the personnel enforcing the Customs and Excise Act. A writ of assistance would not be used in connection with a search for a stolen motor car unless it was suspected the car had been used in connection with a drug or customs and excise offence. I can only tell the hon. member, therefore, that in so far as a search for a stolen vehicle is concerned, there must have been some error in the report which came to him. I should like to know the details, however, in case something did go wrong or something was used in a manner in which it should not have been used. If the hon. member would give me the details he has, then I could satisfy him as to whether or not his report is correct and satisfy myself as to action which should be taken if a mistake has been made.
I should point out also that there are a certain number of search warrants placed in the hands of our personnel by the attorneys general of the provinces in which we act as a provincial police force. However, in so far as writs of assistance are concerned, they are confined to senior personnel and even

then they are limited to the personnel doing work in connection with narcotics and customs and excise offences.
If damage is done in the course of the execution of a writ or a search, the policy is that where the damage done in the exercise of a writ under a federal statute is minor, it is paid for on the spot. If the damage is major, it is referred to the Department of Justice for submission to the treasury board for payment of the damage or at least that portion of it for which we could be said to be responsible. If damage is done in the course of the execution of a writ when we are acting as a provincial police force, then the policy regarding payment for the damage is decided by the provincial attorney general.
I am very appreciative of the remarks of the hon. member for Athabasca, recognizing that he had service in this force and recognizing the authority with which he speaks. Every effort will be made to continue to maintain the high standard of recruitment, performance and public relations which has come to be the hallmark of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.
The hon. member for Essex West renewed a request for the stationing of a member of the force at the port of entry at Windsor. He did refer to the fact that the figure of the mounted policeman in his scarlet tunic has become an established and accepted national symbol. In my opinion it is extremely significant that the figure of a policeman should occupy this place of affection in the public mind in what is certainly not a police state. This is a mark not only of the respect in which the force is held but of the recognition by the public that in the Royal Canadian Mounted Police we have a force with respect to whom there is no danger of their attempting to become the master of the public instead of their servants.
From one point of view, therefore, the temptation is always on those administering the force, and on the minister responsible, to do what we can to put men at strategic points in the scarlet tunic. However, we have always to remember what I said a moment ago. This force will not be respected if it does not approach every problem from the point of view of the efficient discharge of the duties for which it is responsible; that is their role, and not the mere "cashing in", as it were, on the traditions of the force and the respect in which the force is held.
At Windsor, we have a detachment of 17 uniformed members and two civil servants. We also have a 50-foot boat of the marine division with a crew of four. These men, of course, are engaged entirely upon federal work, primarily investigations under the Customs Act and the Immigration Act. I suppose
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that Windsor, being a city made up of normal Canadians, there is a certain amount of income tax work as well. In so far as the marine division is concerned, and indeed the regular members of the force, they have also the enforcement of the small boat regulations. I am advised that we have never been requested by the customs or immigration departments to have members stationed at the actual port of entry. The responsibility at ports of entry, of course, is principally that of the customs and excise branch and the immigration service. They do all the port of entry work and we, in turn, make all the investigations which they request of us and which may arise out of the work they do. I do suggest for consideration of hon. members this thought, that whether or not we were to have men in the red tunic or just in ordinary working dress of the police, would it in fact be wise to have a policeman stationed at your port of entry? I cannot think of any other country, the United States or elsewhere- I may be wrong-where a person going through the port of entry is met by a police officer. It is always the customs officer or the immigration officer.
One of my colleagues reminds me that there may be some countries where one sees police at the borders, but these are not the countries operating under our system of government. I do raise the question of whether it would be wise for us to station a police officer in a port of entry. My own view would be that there are many considerations which argue against it. As long as you have police, as we have at Windsor and other ports of entry, who are available close at hand to make investigations or undertake enforcement work should the work of a police officer be necessary, I think that is all we should do. We should not embark on a policy of actually stationing them in the vicinity, or rather in the building through which immigrants are passing.
I thank the hon. member for Medicine Hat and all hon. members for the indication of their support for these estimates.


Harold Edward Winch: There is one further question I should like to ask the Minister of Justice. This is a subject which has concerned a great many members of the House of Commons. Could the Minister of Justice explain the jurisdiction and responsibility of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police on parliament hill? I raise this question because of an incident which occurred. I realize that inside the House of Commons the responsibility is that of our own security police. We never see the mounted police inside the House of Commons building itself, except during visits by President Kennedy or other distinguished guests. However, we do find

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the Royal Canadian Mounted Police on the grounds of parliament hill. Beyond the grounds we take it that the responsibility is that of the Ottawa police itself.
The reason I raised the matter is this. There has Altered through to a great many members of the House of Commons news of an incident of not so many days ago where an employee in the House of Commons had his car parked within the House of Commons area. After we adjourned at 10:30 p.m. at night, on going down to enter his car, he found somebody trying to break into it. He chased the man but could not catch him. However, he had a good description of him. He naturally came back to the R.C.M.P. in the grounds and, according to the information that I know has been given to a great many members in this house, he was told, "Get in touch with the Ontario police".
The incident happened inside the House of Commons grounds. So although within a few minutes of the time of the incident he could describe the man who had escaped and who had been trying to get into his car, he was told by the R.C.M.P. "That is a matter for the Ontario police and the Ottawa municipal police". As a result of that occurrence which is known to a great many members, I ask this question. Just what is the jurisdiction, authority and responsibility of the R.C.M.P. as distinguished from that of our security police who are most magniAcent and who are doing a wonderful job in the House of Commons inside the building, the R.C.M.P. in the grounds and the Ottawa and municipal police outside the gates? From discussions I have had about this matter I am certain that we would appreciate any information we can get upon this point.


Mr. Fullon:: It sometimes puzzles me a great deal indeed that matters of this sort are reserved for the estimates and then one is expected to discuss the matter in detail without ever having heard of the case. As I have tried to indicate, I would greatly appreciate it if, at any time an hon. member has a ground for complaint or a ground for being disturbed or concerned, he would bring the matter to my attention either directly or through my oAice or through my department or take it up with the commissioner. He would And us fully prepared to believe that our men are human and can make mistakes and anxious to rectify those mistakes or any situation which gave rise to those mistakes.
But I am unable to give a full answer on this particular matter because I have not heard of it previously. If it was a matter of such great concern to members or to the staff or personnel of the house, I regret that it has not been taken up with one of the persons who has the prime responsibility in

the matter such as myself. However, that situation does not alter the fact that, having now heard about it, I shall most certainly look into it. I shall be grateful if the hon. member will give me the particulars such as the date and so on. If the situation as described does in fact exist, I would say that one of the members of the force-inadvertently, I hope-has made an error in his approach. I think that we should under circumstances such as were outlined, and at all times, be prepared in the force to give every assistance within our power, including taking details and reporting to the superiors in the force itself and establishing ourselves any liaison that may be necessary with other police forces. I can only express regret if that was not done in the situation described by my hon. friend.
With regard to the situation generally I would say this. On parliament hill, on government of Canada property, the R.C.M.P. are responsible for the enforcement of the Government Property Traffic Act and of course, here as everywhere else, for the enforcement of all other federal statutes. The Government Property Traffic Act is the authority under which the parking regulations on parliament hill are enacted, although these regulations are worked out in conjunction with the Speakers of the two houses. The authority of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, however, extends only to the outside precincts such as the driveways and parliament hill outside the parliament buildings themselves. Inside the authority rests with the protective staff who operate directly under Mr. Speaker.
I understand that the Ontario provincial police take the position that, in the case of any crime committed under the Criminal Code, even on parliament hill, they reserve the right or the residual authority under the constitutional position that the responsibility for the enforcement of the Criminal Code within the province rests with the attorney general. I do not think that any real point of difficulty has ever arisen. Certainly if a man were detected in the commission of a crime we would not take the absurd position that we have to send out for the Ontario provincial police, nor would they expect us to do so. We would act immediately and then turn over the offender or the information to the Ontario provincial police or the Ottawa police. This is why, if the circumstances are as they have been outlined, I regret that attitude was not taken. I think we would be expected to take the particulars at once and hand them over to the Ontario provincial police for their assistance so that co-operatively we might work together in the apprehension of any offender.

That is, however, the general situation. But with regard to the commission of crimes, even in this area-I refer to crimes under the Criminal Code-the Ontario provincial police say they have the right and that they prefer that, having done everything we are required to do at the moment, we turn the information over to them for the ultimate enforcement of the law.


Harold Edward Winch: Is it correct that you have one room in the east block to which the R.C.M.P. officer can take somebody he picks up on the hill? Have you one room in the east block with bars?


Edmund Davie Fulton: We have a member stationed at the east block inside the south entrance. He is on duty during the daylight hours. I do not believe we have any room in that building.


Harold Edward Winch: Is that a jail?


Edmund Davie Fulton: No. We have no jail on parliament hill unless, of course, my hon. friend regards this chamber as a jail.


Harold Edward Winch: No. I asked that question because I saw a man picked up. I do not know why he was picked up. He was taken away by the police and I think he was put in one room in the east block. Is there one room in the east block where you put anybody who is picked up?


Edmund Davie Fulton: I have never heard of one. This is perhaps another example of the situation I have mentioned. When my hon. friend hears of these extraordinary and unusual circumstances I wish he would bring them to my attention at the time. Then I should be able to give him an answer. I know of no room. The commissioner here knows of no room. I have been in and out of that building a score of times and I have seen no room. I have seen a corporal on duty there. They have a little hallway that they use but there is no jail on parliament hill.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Gordon Campbell Chown: This completes the estimates of the Department of Justice. The committee will now proceed to consideration of the estimates of the Department of Fisheries, vote No. 134. This item will be found on page 29 of the blue book, and the details on page 209.



DEPARTMENT OF FISHERIES

[Stage Direction]
134. Industrial development service, $806,750.
Mr. Robichaud:: I have just one question to ask the minister. In view of the situation of the lobster fishermen in district No. 7 this spring, where fishing only started in some
Supply-Fisheries
cases around June 1 and where a full month was lost, would the minister advise the committee whether he has received any requests either for an extension of the present season beyond July 1 or for a month's extra fishing later in the fall?


Mr. MacLean (Queens):: Mr. Chairman, there have been numerous requests directly from fishermen, and some have been conveyed to me by hon. members. Perhaps I may make a brief statement on the general situation.
There have been requests brought to my attention for an extension in district No. 4. These requests were made not only by fishermen but by the hon. member for Queens-Lunenburg and the hon. member for Shelburne-Yarmouth-Clare. The situation was very carefully reviewed and it was found that in this district, which has had an open season for quite a long period of time, the catch was about the average of the last few years. Therefore the request was denied.
The hon. members from Halifax and Anti-gonish-Guysborough conveyed requests to me from fishermen in that area, and there have been many other direct requests for an extension of the lobster fishing season in district No. 5, which would normally close on June 20. I am recommending that the season in this district be extended to June 30.
With regard to district No. 7B and district No. 9, the season in district No. 7B has already been extended five days, to July 5. It is too early yet to determine whether or not we should further extend the season. Requests have been received for its extension, but it is too early yet to make a determination because this will be dependent on two conditions; one is extent of the catch during the remainder of this month, and the other is what the water temperatures will be and in what condition the lobsters themselves will be when July 5, or whatever date is applicable, arrives. Dependent on those two conditions, near the closing date we will make a determination as to whether or not it will be possible, if necessary, to extend the season.
We have received a few requests, from individuals only as far as I know, that instead of extending the seasons in these districts at this time of year they should be closed at the normal time and a short season opened in the fall. This refers to districts where the season is not normally open in the fall.
This does not seem to have general support. I would not be inclined to recommend the opening of a fall season in these districts, because it is my understanding that this was tried on one occasion in the past in similar circumstances-this was quite a few years ago-and as a result, or at least in part as a result, the catches for the following years

Supply-Fisheries
in the districts were not good. Therefore on balance I think the suggestion of a fall season would be of no general benefit to the fishermen concerned.


Hédard-J. Robichaud: Mr. Chairman, the minister has mentioned that there has already been an extension for district 7B until July 5. Will the minister give some consideration to extending the season in this district to July 8, if the water temperature is appropriate and the quality of the lobster is still good, because it will give the fishermen the full benefit of a week in July; otherwise they would have to stop in the middle of the week.


John Angus MacLean: It is too early to make a determination in this matter, but certainly as these requests come in they will be given very careful and close consideration.


Mr. Muir (Cape Breion North and Victoria):: Mr. Chairman, I wonder whether the minister would also give the assurance that he will give consideration to district 6B in Cape Breton. I have talked over this matter with the minister several times. I hope he will give this district consideration along the lines he has mentioned, because of the lateness of the fishermen getting away due to the ice conditions.


John Angus MacLean: I am sorry, Mr. Chairman, that I neglected to mention district No. 6B. The situation there is also under close observation. We have received requests from that area, some directly and some of which were brought to my attention by the hon. member who has just spoken and the hon. member for Inverness-Rich-mond.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
135. Field services administration, $1,060,400.
Ernest James Broome: Mr. Chairman, I should like to call the attention of the minister to conditions in the waters just outside the port of Vancouver. Just today I received a letter which says, among other things, that the debris in Howe sound covers an area of acres and acres; that one has to pick one's way through this debris and in spite of doing this hulls are dented and scratched, propellers are ruined and cooling systems are plugged.
In the Vancouver press there has appeared a news story that scows were unloading sawdust in the waters outside the port of Vancouver because sawdust burners were no longer used and this was supposedly a good way of getting rid of this debris. I think the regional office in Vancouver should get busy and tighten up on these regulations.

We have put teeth in the Fisheries Act and this sort of thing has got to be stopped. It is the function of this department to stop it.
This sort of condition about which you read in the newspapers and about which people write to you is, I think, shameful, not only in regard to spoiling perhaps the finest boating ground in North America, but it also affects the matter of conservation. These matters were dealt with by the minister when he presented the amendments to the Fisheries Act and this house voted to give the department power to clear up situations of this kind. I think conditions are getting worse out there and the department has got to take action, and drastic action. I would like some report as to what the department is going to do.


John Angus MacLean: In as far as any
responsibility of this department is concerned, I will have this matter brought to the attention of my officials to make sure that everything that should be done is being done. However, I should like to point out that I think in this case, althought I am not sure of the details, the responsibility probably lies with the Department of Transport and I will bring this matter to the attention of that department.


William Arnold Peters: Mr. Chairman, is there any development work being done to repopulate and increase the fishing potentiality in the interprovincial waters of lake Timiskaming?


John Angus MacLean: This responsibility in the case of the lake referred to lies with the government of Ontario. However, I will be glad to see that the hon. member's observation is passed on to the proper authority.


William Arnold Peters: In this case half the lake belongs to the province of Ontario. I have raised this matter because the responsibility of Ontario is limited. There must be co-operation with the province of Quebec in any type of development that might take place.


John Angus MacLean: Mr. Chairman, the same remarks apply to the province of Quebec. The federal government does not have direct responsibility in the waters of Ontario or Quebec for the type of matter about which the hon. member speaks. It is a matter of liaison between those two governments.


Mr. Legere:: Mr. Chairman, I should like to say a few words on this item dealing with conservation and development. I have attempted to look at this problem objectively and I have sought advice from people connected with the fishing industry as primary producers, buyers, processors and exporters. Today we live in a technical world. Science has advanced by leaps and bounds, and in

this advance the fishing industry has been swept along. New and better methods have been devised to catch fish of all species. Where once the location of dense concentrations of fish was a matter of chance, the science of electronics today minimizes this element and pinpoints with 100 per cent proficiency the concentration of fish, so much so that mother nature is waging a losing battle in order to maintain a proper balance.
Lobster, the basis of that great Nova Scotia industry, has not fared any better in its attempt for survival. Assuredly the lobster remains the prey of its natural enemy. This has been its battle down through the ages. Seagulls continue to delight in the appetizing lobster egg that floats for seven days on the surface of the ocean where it drifts aimlessly. The codfish and his colleagues devour their share of these eggs. It has never been determined what percentage of eggs laid by the female lobster do develop into mature lobsters. Even when the surviving floating eggs sink to the bottom and become baby lobsters, fish of all species delight in swallowing them whole. So, as may be seen, the fight for survival goes on.
But this fight is made more difficult because man has jumped into the fray and, over the period of years, devised ingenious methods of trapping lobsters. Before the birth of electronic devices and with the assistance of the Department of Fisheries regulations for protection, it appeared that the lobster population was holding its own in count, in size, and quality. But now depth sounders, fish-scopes-and what have we not in electronic devices-have turned the tide of battle in favour of the fishermen.
Perusal of fisheries statistics reveals, with weather conditions similar in nature in various years, that the catch remains almost at a constant level. But the same statistics fail to take into account that more fishermen have turned to lobster fishing and that each individual fisherman must use an increased number of traps in order to maintain his catch average. This necessarily results in a smaller take-home pay cheque and it also means a depletion of lobster grounds heretofore never fished by the fishermen. Boats wander farther out to sea in search of lobsters and this successfully, because electronics permit them to find shoals never before fished. Years long gone by it was a common occurrence for offshore fishermen to land 50 to 60 pounds of oversized lobster, that is, lobsters over five inches in carapace measurement and ranging from five to 11 pounds. Today this is of rare occurrence. And in this process of depleting the stock of the oversized lobsters, one can readily understand and appreciate how this necessarily curtails
Supply-Fisheries
productivity. It has been determined that an oversized female lobster bears as many as 100,000 eggs.
Different and varied proposals have been advanced in order to lend mother nature a helping hand in halting this depletion of lobster population. Season dates have been jockeyed around to the point where it now appears that nothing further can be done to satisfy nature's requirements and, in the meantime, safeguard the fishermen's best interest. Lobster hatcheries have been advocated, but past experience shows them not to have been too successful. I am of the firm belief that we should let mother nature perform her time-honoured duties and that we should curtail man's illegal encroachments. Patrol service should be stepped up. The consumption of undersized lobsters today is alarming and although man realizes fully that market lobsters are wholly dependent on the preservation of the baby population it seems that the temptation for this forbidden fruit is too great. A more adequate program of protection seems here the only solution. This would greatly assist mother nature in her preservation schedule. But in order to lend the greatest possible assistance to mother nature, I would urge the Minister of Fisheries to take a long and searching look at the feasibility of henceforth returning to the Atlantic waters lobsters over five inches in carapace measurement. I would also strongly urge that all female lobsters bearing eggs be purchased by the federal government to become its property, and be sufficiently marked so as to permit the fisherman to return them with certainty to the water and make it more difficult for him to offer them for sale. A conservation effort of this kind would not be costly and it would be of greater value than all the hatchery schemes which might be evolved. From the very start it would prevent the too great depletion of the lobster population presently being brought about by man's ambitions, yet of his necessity.
I was amazed the other day to hear a statement in the House of Commons that the sale of fish is declining. What amazed me most was that the onus for the decline was being placed on the shoulders of the Department of Fisheries. I cannot go along with this assertion for the simple reason that I believe the responsibility for increasing the sale of fish in Canada must be shared by the primary producer, the buyer, the processor, the wholesaler, the retailer and the one who prepares the fish. In the case of the primary producer there is still room for improvement. These are facts which I can bear out from my personal observation and I am sure hon. members who live close to the sea will agree with me if they have gone down to the

Supply-Fisheries
wharves and watched the boats coming in with their fish. I am sure many of them will have detected, though, fortunately, it is only in a minority of cases, the uncleanness of the fish which are aboard certain boats. In one case I noticed, a tub was filled with water to wash the fish, the fish were dressed in that tub, washed in the same water and finally left there until the boat reached shore to sell that fish. Assuredly this practice does not lend itself to the production of the best tasting fish products.
The buyers of fish products also have problems. If the primary producer does not practice care in dealing with the product, he is not able to offer the cleanest and best fish possible. I have noticed, as I am sure many other hon. members from ridings with fishing industries have, that fish is often left to lie on wharves where flies can get at them, and where the sun glares down. I have known of instances where fish have been allowed to sit in the back of trucks for a whole day before being processed at night.


David Vaughan Pugh: That does not happen in British Columbia.


Felton Fenwick Legere: I suggest the processors and wholesalers must depend a great deal on primary producers in order to offer for sale the best product available. If they do not receive the best fish under the best possible conditions, they can not in turn sell the product.
I should also like to state that no matter how well the fish is finally prepared for sale, how sanitary the conditions under which it has been stored and processed, if the cook is not able to cook it properly, the efforts of those involved in bringing this fish to market are lost. In this nation, which should be a leader in the processing and cooking of fish, we have fallen down miserably, and I, therefore, cannot place this blame upon the Department of Fisheries. I am aware of the very noble efforts of the Department of Fisheries directed toward teaching fishermen to use the most efficient methods possible to handle their product. I am also aware of the efforts of the Department of Fisheries in setting up test kitchens to encourage the elegant art of fish cuisine but I am sure hon. members will not have to search far to find an example of ill-prepared food.


Ernest James Broome: Mr. Chairman, a few moments ago I asked the minister a question. In reply he informed me that the pollution of water by sawdust and debris in Howe sound came within the jurisdiction of the Department of Transport. In checking the Fisheries Act, which has just recently been before this house, I find that the Department of Fisheries

is given power in regard to obstruction or pollution of waters frequented by fish. Returning to my original point, I should like to state that the director of the department at Vancouver should take more effective action than has been taken to date to clean up this pollution of the waters around the city of Vancouver. I do not think the responsibility in this regard falls on the Department of Transport, but rests entirely upon the shoulders of the officials of the Department of Fisheries. I should like the minister to explain why he stated that this subject is under the jurisdiction of the Department of Transport.


John Angus MacLean: Mr. Chairman, perhaps I did not make myself sufficiently clear when I replied to the hon. member. What I did intend to imply was that I would look into the matter, as far as it is my responsibility to do so. I suggested that the Department of Fisheries had a responsibility in respect of pollution of waters which is deleterious to fish. I did not intend to suggest that it was not the Department of Fisheries' responsibility in that respect, and that as far as it is a responsibility of the department, everything possible will be done to correct the situation. I did say, however, that the Department of Transport also had a certain responsibility in regard to pollution of navigable waters, and that would include Howe sound. I will certainly collaborate with my colleague to see that the matter is looked into and corrected as far as possible.


Mr. Carter:: 
John Angus MacLean: Mr. Chairman,
first I wish to say that I neglected to say the last time I was on my feet that I will certainly take under consideration the observations made by the hon. member for Shel-burne-Yarmouth-Clare. With regard to the points raised by the hon. member for Burin-Burgeo, I wish to assure him that the salmon regulations for Newfoundland are under an intensive review by the department at the present time. As he indicated, these regulations were taken over holus-bolus under the Fisheries Act and are regulations that were designed and brought into effect at various times over the years in a piecemeal way. We are reviewing them at the present time to try to make them as reasonable as possible.
With regard to the question of an arbitrary line on one side of which salmon nets have to be lifted on the week end, that is also included in what I have just said, but I want to point out that the purpose of the weekend lift in theory anyway is to allow the

Supply-Fisheries
escape of salmon for purposes of reproduction and so that the salmon migrating on the week ends will reach their destination successfully. There are many features about this matter which perhaps do not meet the objective and, as I said, this question is also being reviewed. If the regulations are having the result that the hon. member has outlined, this does not make sense, of course. I have no doubt that may be the case at least in part and I assure him that the matter is being carefully reviewed at the present time.


Mr. Batten:: Mr. Chairman, I should like to say a brief word regarding sport salmon fishing in Newfoundland and conservation and the regulations applied thereto. As everybody knows, sport salmon fishing is a very great tourist attraction in Newfoundland, and it does appear to me as well as to many others that over the last few years sufficient protection has not been given to the industry with the result that the industry is not being conserved in the way it should be.
I know it is impossible for the department to place a river guardian at every bend of every river but I believe it is necessary to increase the protection now being given with regard to the enforcement of the salmon regulations, particularly on the west coast of Newfoundland. I suggest to the minister that a survey be made of the protection now being provided with a view to improving the service and maintaining a protection service on every river that will stop some of the illegal fishing now being carried on.


John Angus MacLean: Mr. Chairman, we have also realized the necessity of having greater protection on our fishing streams generally in the maritimes and especially in Newfoundland. We are making an effort to have an increase in next year's estimates for this purpose so that a greater degree of protection can be given on these various streams.
The whole question of the conservation of the Atlantic salmon is a complicated one because in some cases there is a division of interest between the sport fishermen on the one hand and the commercial fishermen on the other and in addition the salmon have no regard for provincial boundaries. Many of the fish that migrate to Quebec, New Brunswick and Nova Scotia pass by Newfoundland and for that reason there has been established a committee of the senior officials of the fisheries departments of the Atlantic provinces and our own officials to try to correlate the regulations in all these areas so that the proper degree of conservation will be achieved with the result, we hope,

that not only will the Atlantic salmon population be maintained but will even be increased both for sport fishing and for commercial fishing.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
142. Newfoundland bait service, $534,700.
Chesley William Carter: I just have one question on
this item, Mr. Chairman. Some time ago I received a letter from the fishermen of Burgeo stating that the price of bait at the government depot had been raised by half a cent a pound. My question to the minister is, is this a general increase in the price of bait or is this a special case? If so, was there some special reason for it?


John Angus MacLean: I am sorry, I am not aware of the rise in the price. I shall have to look into the matter. I do not see any reason why there should be a rise in one particular area. I am certain there has not been a general increase, so there must have been some particular reason for this but I have not the information at the moment.


Chesley William Carter: The general price has been 2-J.- cents a pound and it has risen to 3 cents in this particular case. So far as they know, the other fishermen were still getting it for 2J cents a pound, and they wondered why there had been an increase.


John Angus MacLean: I am sorry, Mr. Chairman, but I have not an answer for the hon. member at the moment.
While I am on my feet, I should point out that the supplementary estimate related to this item is to provide for repairs for the Arctica which is used in the Newfoundland bait service.
In so far as the other supplementary estimates that are being called are concerned, they apply almost entirely to lapses in items for last year. They include such things as a residence for a fisheries officer at the Magdalen Islands, the provision for the building of the Cape Freels, a protection vessel for Newfoundland. It so happens that, partly as the result of a strike in the shipyard, some of last year's vote lapsed before the end of last year. I just wanted to make this general explanation.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Would the minister tell us how many bait units are to be supplied to Newfoundland in the coming year and whether or not he has been able, up to this time, to decide on the location of these units?


John Angus MacLean: The number is eight. The ones that are provided for in this year's estimates have not been allocated as yet.


Herman Maxwell Batten: There are some areas in Newfoundland in which no bait unit has been established, but there are private firms operating in the areas that are willing to buy bait and provide it to the fishermen without profit on the actual transaction. My question to the minister is this: Is it true that the department will not sell bait to firms of this type at the same price as which bait is provided to one of the department's depots?


John Angus MacLean: It depends on the supply of bait. I should like to point out, too, that commercial firms in this category are entitled to the bait assistance subsidy which is used more extensively in the mari-times than it is in Newfoundland, although it is being used in Newfoundland. There is an application in at the moment, but I have forgotten from what place, for one of these subsidies to be paid under the circumstances to which the hon. member refers.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
148. Destruction of dogfish and other predators, $150,000.
Mr. Smith (Lincoln):: My remarks, Mr. Chairman, will be directed to great lakes fishing. I should like to ask the minister what progress is being made in the control of the lamprey eel. The lamprey eel came into the great lakes about 20 years ago and has multiplied tremendously. It has been a big factor in the destruction of lake trout in Georgian bay and also in lake Erie.
I should like the minister to explain what progress is being made in controlling this cannibal fish, and at the same time perhaps he could comment on the smelts. This is also a salt water fish which came into the lakes a few years ago. While it has some commercial value, the fishermen are becoming quite concerned about it because it is spreading so rapidly they are afraid it will eliminate some of the better class of fish from the great lakes.


John Angus MacLean: At an earlier date in my estimates, Mr. Chairman, I did make a statement regarding the progress in lamprey control in the great lakes. I can say that it is very encouraging. The scientists have been able to discover a specific poison for the lamprey which kills the lamprey but does not injure other forms of life. This is being used extensively at the present time. It is a little early yet to assess properly the success we are meeting with this program. However, by next year we should be able to say categorically or nearly so whether or not this is going to be successful, as we hope it will. Then, there is the general question of restoring the
Supply-Fisheries
balance of life in the lakes after the lamprey are controlled. I think that is all I need to say at this moment.
I now have the information with regard to the price of bait at Burgeo. 1 find that we do not have a bait depot at Burgeo, so the price referred to must be the price charged by a private firm.


Mr.   Baiien@: With regard to the question asked by the hon. member for Burin-Burgeo, would this particular firm be entitled to a rebate on the bait assistance?


John Angus MacLean: It is not a question of a rebate, it is a question of a grant which is earned in a period of 10 years if certain services, up to the standards set by the department, are provided by the firm concerned. This grant is not reflected directly in the price of the bait sold.


William Arnold Peters: I, too, wanted to inquire about the progress in the control of the lamprey eel in the great lakes area. I was very interested in it. A few years ago, there was evidence that this lamprey eel was continuing to spread into other areas and that was the reason for my interest. Four or five years ago, I was told that the method for exterminating them was electric shock. Barriers had been established throughout the lake Superior area as well as lake Huron. Statements were made that there would be a much better method for destroying them shortly, but they were under control.
I notice there has been no increase in the amount of money authorized for this purpose. It would seem to me that $150,000 is not a large sum of money to be spent controlling a fish that has such a devastating effect. It spreads very rapidly. It eliminates all the fish with which it comes in contact. It seems to me that we should not wait for a year and a half in order to assess the situation. It seems to me that we should devote more money to getting rid of it now. It will be easier to do it now than it will be a couple of years from now.


John Angus MacLean: I believe the hon. member may be labouring under a misunderstanding. The vote on which this discussion started is item 148 and it does not really apply to the destruction of lamprey. The money provided for that purpose is in item 150. It is a much greater amount than the $150,000 referred to. The chemical destruction of lamprey is being carried on at a high rate. Finances are not a limiting factor at the moment. All of the lampricide that can feasibly be used at the present time is being used this year in a very heavy program that is going on both in Canada and in the United States as far as the destruction of lamprey

Supply-Fisheries
in the lakes are concerned, it is a total of $424,000. That is the Canadian share of this item making a total, with the United States share, of $1,300,000.
As I said earlier, it is a little bit too early to be definite about the success of this program but it looks to be very encouraging indeed. The electric barriers to which the hon. member referred are still being used but not primarily to control the lamprey. They are being used as a counting device to determine the success of the poisoning process used in the streams for the destruction of lamprey. Poisoning has a great advantage. When the eggs are laid in these streams, the larva takes about five years to develop before the young lamprey migrate back to the lakes. With the lampricide method you wipe out five-year stocks in one fell swoop whereas in the other method you can only control the mature lamprey or each year's crop of small lamprey coming down. This looks very encouraging. However, I think I should not say more at the moment.


William Arnold Peters: I am appreciative of the statement the minister has made. Can he explain how the system is working out, how the bait is laid down or the process that is being used in relation to the spreading of this lampricide? What I am curious about is this. Does it leave any opportunity for co-operation and assistance of the municipalities which showed a great deal of interest in the control that originally was implemented through the electric barrier method?


John Angus MacLean: We are receiving co-operation from all levels of government as we require it. The program is going ahead well. It has not been inhibited in any way by any lack of co-operation on the part of anybody. As far as the problem of restoring the balance of fish life in the lakes is concerned I might say this. Concurrently new types of gear are being developed for the catching of smelts in the great lakes in greater volume than was possible by earlier methods.


Mr. Noble:: I should like to ask the Minister of Fisheries whether his department has used any influence on the great lakes fishery commission with respect to the suggestion I have made over the past couple of years, namely to do something about stopping these lamprey from coming in from the ocean. It seems to me that we are spending a great deal of money on lampricide year after year and that nothing has been done about the source of the infestation. I suggest that some sort of electrical barrier be put somewhere on the St. Lawrence river to stop these predators from getting into the great lakes system.
[Mr. MacLean (Queens) .1


John Angus MacLean: I might say that the international great lakes fishery commission has examined all these possibilities. The problem now is, as it were, to control the predator on their front, the area to which they migrate farthest. There is such a great infestation in the lakes now that it would be locking the stable door after the steed has escaped. But this is something that is being closely watched. If we succeed in cleaning out the lakes we will, of course, have this problem raised by the hon. member for Grey North looked into.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Fisheries research board of Canada-
150. Operation and maintenance including an amount of $55,000 for contributions towards fisheries research and for scholarships, and authority to make recoverable advances of amounts not exceeding in the aggregate the amount of the share of the international great lakes fishery commission of the cost of work on lamprey control and lamprey research, $4,653,075.
Herman Maxwell Batten: I wonder whether the minister has any brief report to make with respect to research on the herring schools in the north Atlantic.


John Angus MacLean: This work is carried on chiefly by the research board station in St. Andrews and in St. John's. I have not any concise report to make at the present time, but the work is being done along several levels with regard to this problem. The oceanographic level is being studied to determine the effect of water temperature change on the migration of herring. Considerable money has been spent and research done on the locating of herring schools in their migration. Then on a different level again work is being done in co-operation with the industry on better methods of the actual catching of herring. But I think the chief problem to which the hon. member refers is the difficulty, under certain circumstances, of locating bodies of herring, or finding where they are. We are still working on this problem. There are several approaches to it. The matter is not being neglected. We are also doing work at the present time on directing the migration of herring into certain areas by what are known as air bubble curtains. This has to do with the actual catching of herring. It is a method that has been developed in the United States. We have full information on what has been done there and further research is being done in this country.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Jacques Flynn: This completes the estimates of the Department of Fisheries.

DEPARTMENT OF FORESTRY 152. Departmental administration, $1,090,452.


Jacques Flynn: This item will be found on page 31 of the blue book, the details on page 225.


Hon. H. J. Flemming (Minister of Forestry):: 
Mr. Racine:: Mr. Chairman, at the outset of my remarks, I would be remiss in failing to congratulate the minister not only on his appointment to the new Department of Forestry, but also on the presentation of his first estimates.
As the minister mentioned, I think it is useful, in analysing the policy of the new department, to refer to the recommendations of the committee on mines, forests and waters. In a report tabled in the house on July 4, 1959 the committee recommended:
Your committee strongly recommends consideration of steps which would widen the scope of the forestry branch, increasing its status in such a way that a deputy minister would be in direct charge. The fact that such a status, comparable to that of a department does not exist now reflects a lack of appreciation of the importance of the forest industries to Canada, in the past, now, and in the future. Other departments of government are considered essential to serve industries or aspects of our national economy which are of much lesser economic consequence.
Then, on page 668 of the Journals of the house, we find this recommendation:
Your committee recommends that the entomological and plant pathology research relating to trees and forests, now under the Department of Agriculture, be transferred to and co-ordinated directly with the recommended and expanded forestry department.
And now, Mr. Chairman, referring to page 669 of the report of the standing committee on mines, forests and waters, and particularly to paragraph 70, here is what we find:

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Your committee feels that Canada cannot afford to ignore a potential so great for lumber and pulp sales as is offered in the Orient and, therefore, it recommends that these markets be approached on an open-minded basis. Study should be made of our changing share of traditional markets in the U.K. and the U.S.A. A marketing section should be created within the proposed department of forestry to aid the Department of Trade and Commerce in the merchandising of our wood products.
We can say that the first recommendation has been followed, but we do not think that the mere fact of setting up the department is enough to give adequate recognition to the importance of the forestry industry.
The second suggestion has also been adopted. With regard to the third, however, the department in the past year has added absolutely nothing to what was done previously, and apparently has totally ignored the recommendation of the committee as well as the great potential markets offered in the Orient.
We are of the opinion that the department should not only co-ordinate certain activities of departments like agriculture and northern affairs and national resources, but that, in addition to research, it should set up, as suggested, a marketing service within the department.
Such a service could assist the Department of Trade and Commerce in the marketing of our wood products.
Mr. Chairman, everybody recognizes the importance of the forest industry to Canada. It could not be otherwise considering that 68 per cent of the land area of the ten provinces consists of forest land. In this regard, it must be kept in mind that this is almost four times as great as the area devoted to agriculture. Here is what the Prime Minister (Mr. Diefenbaker) stated on June 28, 1960, as reported on page 5485 of Hansard:
I think I might commence by placing before the committee in summary form a few pertinent facts regarding the importance of the forest industry to Canada. More than 40 per cent of the land area of the 10 provinces consists of productive forest land. This area, by way of comparison, is almost four times as great as the area devoted to agriculture, which in capsule form reveals the extent of our forest resources. The pulp and paper industry is Canada's largest manufacturing industry; the lumber industry still stands high on the list. These industries are distributed throughout the country from coast to coast, and in addition to producing products of great value they are among the major sources of employment. External trade in wood, wood products and paper yields a balance in Canada's favour far larger than that contributed by any of the other major commodity groups

recognized in national statistics form. Furthermore, a very large proportion of that favourable balance becomes available in United States funds.
Further on, the Prime Minister had this to say:
I might point out that in September, 1959, the food and agriculture organization brought out a report dealing with paper and paper products which stated in summary form that while world demand for paper and paper products in 1955 amounted to 56 million metric tons, in 1965 it will amount to 88 million metric tons and by 1975 to 134 million metric tons.
If Canada presently supplies 16 per cent of the world market, I feel it is appropriate that we should intensify research work so as to meet the demand, but it is also very important that the forestry department ensures that we keep that market, and that is where a marketing service would be just as useful within the department as a research service.
We do not wish to minimize the importance of the pulp and paper industry, but we feel that the lumber and related industries are also quite important; yet, to our knowledge, the new department has not done much in that respect.
The department should not just administer the division it has inherited from the Department of Agriculture, that is the forest biology division, because it was not of great consequence within that department. Research in the field of forest biology should be stepped up. And the same remark applies to the former division of the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources.
Mr. Avila Bedard, the former Quebec deputy minister of land and forests, reports that the following was written at the beginning of the eighteenth century by Intendant Dupuy:
Wood should be considered as the resource of Canada which will replace fur-trading. Wheat and wood, he added, will be the two great trading products of the country. It is therefore one resource substituted to another by Providence and there should be use and not abuse of it.
Times have changed since the eighteenth century when forests were burned by settlers clearing land. Today the emphasis is on conservation.
We know from history also that forest depletion was mainly the result of forest fires, insects and fungi, as well as of the normal action of nature's forces.
Nowadays, thanks to scientific developments, such plagues can be curbed.
Mr. Bedard also reports that in 1886 a German, Otto Hann, foresaw all the possibilities. He wrote:

It occurs to me that Canada will know how to make use of its vast forest resources for making paper to satisfy not only its continental, but also its international needs.
We have since covered a good deal of ground to arrive at a radical change. Things have changed greatly from the economic point of view since the beginning of the colony. How right was the man who wrote that, for our country has now become the first exporter of this commodity.
The paper industry ranks first among our great manufacturing industries.
The two earliest censuses, those of 185051 and of 1860-61, indicate that there were then five or six paper mills in the province of Quebec.
Both parts of Canada had at that time 16 paper mills whose production had a value of $372,000.
The Canada Year Book reveals that, in 1957, our exports reached $715,490,000, and it is expected our production should double within about 15 years.
Lumber and other forest products are also of great importance in that industry.
Mr. Marie Albert Bourget, in a book entitled La Foret, one of a collection on our environment, points out that local needs, as well as the needs, even limited, of the mother country, could not but make for the early establishment of saw mills.
And he mentions that as early as 1668, Mr. Hazeur established two saw mills at La Mal-baie and that about 50 years later, in 1720, the country had about 28 such mills and that in 1732, 10 new constructions showed that it was possible to find a source of wealth there.
Here again, we have come a long way: the figures for 1957 show that the export value of boards and beams amounted to $281,681,000.
From an economic point of view, forest products continue to make a most important contribution toward a reduction of our trade deficits.
On the domestic level, the forest industry paid salaries and wages amounting to $1,117 million in 1958.
The same year, forest operations gave jobs to 67,327 people, and those figures have been compiled on a man-year basis and exclude men engaged in transportation activities.
If we consider that the pulp and paper industry gave employment to 64,084 people, the lumber industry to 47,763, the wood products industry to 73,159, and the paper products industry to 28,851, we can appreciate the economic contribution of that important market.
90205-6-389J
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That source of employment and wealth we have in our forests has a great social value for our country.
Our forest resources must be used to meet the needs of our population, and with its welfare in mind and it is up to this new department to co-operate closely with the provinces and the various research and conservation organizations, so as to set up an economic and social policy and search for the most efficient formulas to reach that end.
The solution depends in the first place on the kind of resources to be developed.
Now, here in this country, there are no problems as far as that is concerned, providing there is reforestation and intelligent development.
From the point of view of conservation and reforestation, we have in Canada an organization concerned with action in the field of forestry and whose objective it is to obtain public co-operation in the wise use of our renewable resources.
I am thinking of the Canadian Forestry Association, which was founded about the year 1900, under the patronage of Sir Wilfrid Laurier, and which organized the first conference on conservation.
In 1959, it became a federation of provincial forestry associations. It has to its credit the organization of three national conferences on resources, in 1906, 1954 and 1958.
That organization comprises the following groups throughout Canada: Canadian Forestry Association of B.C.; L'Association Forestiere du Quebec with its ten regional groups; Ontario Forestry Association; Manitoba Forestry Association; Alberta Forestry Association; Saskatchewan Forestry Association; Canadian Forestry Association of New Brunswick; Canadian Forestry Association of Nova Scotia.
The association has a membership of 35,000 adults and 18,500 young people. Since their registration, the junior forest wardens have brought in 39,500 boys and the Quebec 4-H clubs 56,000 boys and girls.
These youth organizations have many activities, including fire warden clubs, summer camps, annual contests, forestry schools, conservation, etc.
Among the public at large, the association has been a great protector of the forest through its educational activities, using various media such as the press, radio broadcasts, movies and the distribution of literature.
In addition, forest fire prevention campaigns are organized each year.
Since 1954, tree farms have been included in the program, and so far, the association had to its credit, as of December 31, 1960,

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820 such farms with a total area of 515,000 privately owned acres.
To this well-rounded program, the Canadian Forestry Association has added studies on sylviculture and reforestation.
This is a very brief summary of the work done by the federation of provincial forestry associations, whose sole purpose is to educate the people on the problems of forestry, which it considers as crucial.
We now have in Ottawa a forestry department. It was set up with a great flourish of publicity, but perhaps it is important to raise the matter of the co-operation it can offer to the members of the federation, to find out whether it is just a ghost department or whether it really intends to do something worthwhile.
In March of this year, a brief was submitted to the minister, specifically requesting an increase in the $20,000 subsidy now being granted by the department.
When you look at the efforts put forth and the results obtained by the federation, it seems to me that this request for $100,000 was reasonable. However, it apparently did not get the consideration it deserved from the new department or indeed from the minister who, I must admit, has great experience in this field. It is not that the federation did not have a good case, but the government seems hard to convince. I would not like to accuse the minister of refusing to raise this subsidy because he saw no political advantage in such a course, though I must say this is a specialty of the government.
However, here are the arguments put forward when this brief was submitted, and I think they are most realistic and convincing. It is stated in the first place, and I quote:
(Text):
1.	Investing in the associations is much cheaper for the government than trying to do his job itself.
2.	The job of conservation education we are doing is a "long term preventive unemployment medicine", as Canada's future hangs on the wise use of resources.
3.	C.F.A. can tell the public about the activities and the importance of the Department of Forestry in a way this latter could not; so, the value of C.F.A. for the public relations of the Department of Forestry could be very high.
4.	The Department of Forestry Act states that public education is a right and proper field for the new department to engage in.
5.	The expansion of the access roads in the forest requires parallel education of travelling public.
6.	Forest protection against fire starts with prevention and prevention is a matter of information and education.

7.	Boy scouts are receiving an annual grant from the federal government; so are the agricultural youth clubs. Forestry youth clubs, which are- not to say more-as active as the others, have never been helped.
8.	All meetings dealing with natural resources and forestry, and it will certainly be the same with the resources for tomorrow conference, recommend more public information and education regarding the conservation of the forests; it is exactly the work of C.F.A.
9.	By providing a nationally integrated conservation program, the federation of provincial forestry associations presents a ready-forged medium of communication which, we feel, deserves the fullest support from government at all levels.
(Translation) :
It seems to me that the arguments put forward were rather convincing, but the minister took no heed of them to date.
It is indeed to the credit of the government to have set up this department, but, up to now, it has accomplished nothing more than was done before by the Department of Agriculture and the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources.
The Canadian Forestry Association pointed out to the minister that its request was based on clause VI of Bill C-82 of the Forestry Department Act, and stated moreover, that it had the support of all ministers of lands and forests in the eight provinces which have forestry associations.
Moreover, the provinces were willing to remit the amount due to each association, through their departments of lands and forests, or directly through the national federation.
In the case of the required amount, which was $100,000-of which $25,000 were for the federation itself, while the balance was equal to the amount now subscribed by provincial governments for their provincial forestry associations-the federal government would only have contributed on a 50-50 basis in that field, as it does in many others.
We know that the present federal grant to the federation is $20,000. Of course, with the creation of the new forestry department the federation expected a more generous contribution from the federal government for such important education work with regard to our natural and forest resources. It was an excellent opportunity for the new minister, when speaking, on March 10, at the annual assembly, to show that his department had not been set up solely in order to give a post to a former premier who had been defeated in his own province but who had moreover, as a Conservative feather in his cap, the advantage of having moved the choice of the present Prime Minister rather than the Minister of Finance or the Minister of Justice at the Conservative convention in Ottawa.

This department, like all others, seems to have fallen asleep and to care but little about what is happening.
I do not want to be unfair to the minister who has the personal ability to do much more and the necessary knowledge to do well in his department, which, however, seems to have been steeped in the same uneasiness as all departments under this government.
This niggardly refusal to accede to the request of the only Canadian association concerned with forest conservation in Canada is an additional proof of this government's anarchy.
As I said, the minister has all my admiration.
(Text):


Ernest James Broome: Will the hon. member permit a question? In his summation of the request of the Canadian Forestry Association, will he make quite clear the contribution now being made by the provinces which, incidentally, are the only recipients of revenue from this natural resource while at the same time they contribute only 15 per cent of the total amount required to run this association?
(Translation):


Jean-Paul Racine: Mr. Chairman, I have no intention of discussing the contributions made by each of Canada's ten provinces.
I am sure that my hon. friend is more interested in what the government of British Columbia is doing in this respect. It may be that that province contributes only 15 per cent.
As I was saying, I personally trust the minister. However one thing I should like to say is that the Prime Minister should consider him as qualified as we do on this side of the house, and that he should not be used any more as a mere messenger between Ottawa and New Brunswick, and as a propagandist for the government.
This department was organized with a view to co-ordinating research work to promote production and forest resources conservation in Canada; unfortunately, we find that nothing has been done to that effect, that all that used to be done previously-and not only would it be advisable but it would even be more important that the government should do away with the routine followed by certain sectors of the departments of northern affairs and of agriculture, and that a real desire to look after our forests be shown.
In addition to marketing, as I said in my opening remarks and as the committee suggested, the department should be aware that
Supply-Forestry
it can do much more. It should be recognized that the training of people in forestry should be positive and well controlled. Methods should vary as between cities and rural areas, and as between lumbermen and industry.
We on this side of the house are often accused of criticizing and not making any suggestions. By contrast to that and as we usually do, I should like to draw the minister's attention to certain suggestions which could be given greater consideration by his department. Most of the suggestions I wish to make could be considered and applied in co-operation with the provinces, because I am one of many who still believe that the rights of the provinces concerning forestry must come first.
Everyone knows that the provinces own almost all of our forest resources in Canada, and so they must remain the only administrators of those riches. It is with pleasure that I heard the minister restate that policy again today. However, what I have to suggest could be realized on the basis of cooperation as in the case of access roads because never, never, and on that I perfectly agree with the minister, should this department open the door to interference with purely provincial matters.
I feel that there is nothing wrong with the promotion of continued co-operation between federal and provincial governments and a recent Ottawa meeting of the ministers of forestry of Ontario, New Brunswick and Quebec shows that they are ready to cooperate. The minister himself having given us an indication to that effect, I believe that we have there proof of a real desire to co-operate without the slightest infringement upon the rights of the provinces.
Here are a few suggestions which the Department of Forestry might consider and thus help all the provinces.
First of all, it could help increase real model forests across the country like they have in the United States.
Second, it could co-operate with experimental farms where there is already a wood lot in order that it be developed and used as an outdoor laboratory. I refer especially to the Lennoxville experimental farm near Sherbrooke.
Third, it should increase research on the use of our hard woods.
Fourth, it should increase research on the use of our soft woods.
I was very pleased indeed this week to receive a pamphlet from the Department of Forestry, entitled "Properties and utilization

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of Canadian poplars". I might tell you, Mr. Chairman, that it is a most interesting pamphlet and I wish to commend the officials who prepared it. If I may be allowed to express a wish-may it be distributed all over Canada and also be sent to different manufacturers.
Fifth, the department could increase its grants to forestry associations, as requested by the Canadian Forestry Association.
Sixth, the department could give more help in order to promote reforestation of waste lands. A bill along this line has been introduced in the house by the Minister of Agriculture. I wonder why this question of reforestation has not been left to the Department of Forestry instead of being handled by the Department of Agriculture.
Seventh, the department could help in setting up and maintaining nurseries.
Eighth, the department could set up an exhibition of forestry products from every province, and send it all over Canada and abroad. On this point, I should like to quote the following article which was published in the 1961 issue of the magazine entitled Timber:
(Text):
Early in January, 1962, while Canada slumbers under a blanket of snow, a Canadian "army" will move eastward to West Africa, where snow and frost are unknown to most of the inhabitants. Although sponsored by the Canadian government, this army will go in peace. The soldiers are Canadian manufacturers and merchants, their ammunition consisting of nothing other than a briefcase containing advertising material describing the products they wish to sell. Their aim is to sell the Africans only such goods as will foster their development and aid their economic progress.
(Translation):
The department should bear the cost of the exhibition and organize an increasingly greater number of events in different countries, in order to promote and expand our exports of forest products. Our domestic trade should also be promoted by familiarizing Canadians with products made in Canada.
It could also-and this is my ninth suggestion-patronize a special fire prevention week each year in co-operation with the provinces.
Tenth, it could also immediately increase grants to the provinces, so that the forestry inventory can be drawn up as soon as possible. Knowing exactly what the resources and the industrial potential of our forests are, the opportunities in both fields could be determined. I know that the Department of Forestry

is co-operating in the inventory of provincial forests, and I wonder if it would not be appropriate to increase these grants.
Eleventh, it could promote reforestation and development by setting up long term forestry credit facilities. I believe that this suggestion is by far the most important, for it would prompt many farmers operating on marginal lands to undertake reforestation and the development on those lands.
Twelfth, the department should study the qualities of some varieties of trees which are not being used at present, so as to give the industries now using hardwood a chance of maintaining their operations with varieties which have been left aside, for it appears that hardwood lots are being depleted.
Many other suggestions could be made, but I believe it would be a step forward if the department would take under immediate consideration those I have just mentioned.
However, as I say, in order not to be misunderstood, these steps should be applied so as not to encroach upon the rights of the provinces who have exclusive jurisdiction in the administration of their own forests. I see that the minister is smiling; he understands why I stress co-operation between his department and the provinces. He knows I want no interference in provincial jurisdiction. If it has been possible to co-operate in the access roads program, then I believe a similar procedure could be followed to apply the recommendations I have just made.
In the May 1961 issue of the magazine Timber, reference is made to a speech given by the Minister of Forestry on the occasion of the sixtieth anniversary of the Canadian Forestry Association. I should like to quote part of the article which is entitled:
(Text):
Flemming addresses C.F.A. annual meeting.
(Translation) :
And the article reports, among other things, the following words of the minister:
(Text):
1.	Continue and increase the current programs of research relating to forestry and the utilization of forest products.
2.	Maintain and increase the information branch of the forestry department.
3.	Provide economic studies of forest resources and forest industries.
4.	Aid provincial agencies, or individuals, in specific forestry programs.
5.	Provide forest surveys, technical advice and other assistance to any federal agency dealing with forest lands.
6.	Co-operate with international organizations (such as U.N. agencies) concerned with forestry, and in which Canada has membership.

(Translation):
Mr. Chairman, it is strange to find these words being repeated so often-


Jacques Flynn: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member, but his time is up.
(Text):
I must inform the hon. member that his time has expired.


Some hon. Members:: Carry on.


Jacques Flynn: Does the committee agree to allow the hon. member to carry on with his remarks?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
(Translation):


Mr. Clermont:: Mr. Chairman, would the committee agree to have the hon. member for Beauce-


Jean-Paul Racine: Mr. Chairman, I thank the committee for its patience and I will try to conclude as briefly as possible.
As I was saying, it is strange indeed to come so often across the words "continue" and "maintain". The forestry department has not been set up, I believe, solely to maintain without any change what already existed in the Departments of Agriculture and Northern Affairs and National Resources, because we should then be justified in saying that if that were the intention of the minister -I do not think it was-the new department was unnecessary.
The booklet entitled "Canadian Forestry Statistics", and more particularly table 16 on page 18, provides the following indications. I quote the figures on exports of wood products.
1954		 $326,026,741
1955	  386,297,929
1956		 328,098,874
1957		 282,690,031
1958		 293,600,203
1959	  323,716,841
The average for the three years from 1954 to 1956 inclusive is $347 million, while that for the years 1957 to 1959 inclusive is $300 million, that is, an annual decrease of $47 million. That is why I believe the setting up of a sales service in the department is most important.
The forest industry itself is doing everything possible. The magazine also pointed out the various continuing steps taken by industry in this regard, and I quote the article:
(Text):
New Canadian hardwood grade for the U.K. market Strenuous efforts are being made to boost shipments of Canadian hardwoods to Britain this year
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and to build up a larger future trade more comparable with pre-war business. First shots in this campaign were fired last year when the Canadian lumber trade mission visited the U.K., and now there has been a follow-up by a visit from two hardwood specialists-Mr. Robert Staniforth, director and general manager of Staniforth Lumber and Veneer, Ltd., and a director of the C.L.A.; and Mr. Jack Barrier, chief inspector for the N.H.L.A.
They have made a brief springtime visit to Britain with the aim of selling the U.K. trade on a new utility grade of Canadian hardwoods for the furniture and pallet industries at economic prices. The Canadian shipment of 750,000 cu. ft. of hardwoods last year to Britain is not enough- they- want to get back to the figure of 1940- 6,600,000 cu. ft.
(Translation):
Mr. Chairman, I am wondering whether we should not see there another indication of the usefulness and the contribution of the Department of Forestry particularly through support to our trade commissioners promoting a Canadian product everywhere in the world. It seems to me that the statistics are selfexplanatory and that they show the urgency of the problem.
As for the situation of supply, I quote page 203 of the report of the royal commission on Canada's economic prospects. It reads:
Does Canada possess the forests capable of meeting the projected increases in output of wood products? The requirements of wood to meet the various projected productions of forest products have been estimated for us.
Based on these estimates, to meet the 1980 requirements of the wood-using industries, the annual cut of wood will have to be 58 per cent larger than it was in 1954. These estimates include sizeable allowance for increased use of mill leftovers-waste material-in the production of pulp and paper. We are told that at the projected level of lumber, plywood and veneer output, as much as 6 million to 8 million cords of usable material would result as waste.
Mr. Chairman, I feel that the supply situation must be correlated with the possibilities of sales and exports, if stability is to be maintained in that most important industry. To verify that point let us refer once again to the report on Canada's economic prospects, particularly page 193 in connection with only one section of that industry. I quote:
We shall begin with the lumber or saw mill industry, one of Canada's oldest manufacturing operations but still one of its largest. In output, sawmilling still ranks within the leading ten manufacturing industries; in employment it rivals the pulp and paper industry. It is an industry made up of more than 8,000 mills, many of which are very small, but some of which are extremely large.
Research within the department must not only be maintained but accelerated, and the central government, through this new department, should accelerate research and offer its co-operation to the provinces, while respecting their sovereign rights, in order that an inventory be made and that the development of our forests and protection against

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forest fires, insect, cryptogamic disease be carried out; that reforestation methods to increase output be discovered; that better utilization of forest products be achieved and that a study of market requirements be made to find ways of selling the products; that the system of forest concessions which is too uncertain at present and therefore paralyses the progress of forestry be stabilized; that the financial structure of our industry be adjusted; that research be made into forest economics, technology and science; and finally that higher specialized education in forestry be developed to give the government the administrators it needs, and to provide industry with good technicians to help it maintain its position.
I would not want my remarks to be misinterpreted; neither would I want to minimize the work carried out by departmental officials. But I condemn the government for its lack of action. It seems to me that since it was established, the department has not accomplished what the forest industry had the right to expect.
I have here a pamphlet issued by the laboratories of Canadian forest products entitled:
(Text):
Comparison of taper sawing and through-and-through sawing.
(Translation):
This document is most interesting and important for every saw mill in our country and it is well made, because it might help small saw mills which cannot afford to retain the services of experts. I should like the department to tell us how many of those pamphlets were distributed and whether they are available in both official languages.
On the other hand, I have here three other pamphlets published by the laboratory. The first one is entitled;
(Text):
Some effects of Mill type on the sawing of small logs.
(Translation):
The second one is called:
(Text):
Strengthening ring-connectored timbers with steel strapping.
(Translation):
And the third one:
(Text):
Wear, play and heat distortion in veneer lathes.
(Translation) :
Those pamphlets are most interesting and the department is to be commended for having re-issued them. I hope they were distributed in all provinces.

I hope the Prime Minister will have as much confidence in the Minister of Forestry as we have, and that he will provide him and his officials, whom I want to congratulate, with the means to accomplish things that will show that the head of the government had good grounds for creating the new department, which has not been proved so far.
Private enterprise deserves also our congratulations, as well as the different forestry organizations for their unfailing co-operation.
Briefly, I want not only to congratulate the minister for what he has done in the past, but to ask him to do much more in the future.
Moreover, I trust that all the hopes raised by his appointment will be fulfilled, and that those who have entertained such hopes will soon have clear evidence of the capital importance he wants to give to the question of our forests.
(Text):


Harold Edward Winch: Mr. Chairman, I rise on a point of order and, I think, privilege. It was our understanding, following the statement made by the house leader, that on Saturday we would spend the hour between five and six o'clock on private and public bills, to recover time that had been lost previously. We have not spent this hour on those matters.
I also understand it was suggested by the house leader that if we did not do that, we would adjourn at five o'clock. I rise on a point of order because it was our understanding that between five and six o'clock on Saturday private and public bills would be dealt with, and that procedure has not been followed.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Chairman, the hon.
member is inaccurate in his statement. I threw out the suggestion the other night that on Thursday between five and six o'clock, or alternatively on Friday between five and six o'clock, we might deal with private and public bills.


Harold Edward Winch: On Saturday.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Yes, on Thursday or Saturday. This was to be in exchange for the hour missed on Tuesday.


Harold Edward Winch: Was it agreed to by all parties?


Gordon Minto Churchill: It was not agreed to by all parties. The second suggestion that I threw out was that if we finished justice, fisheries and forestry early today, I would be quite prepared to move the adjournment of the house. I thought perhaps hon. members would finish by 4.30. However, that has not happened, so we are continuing.


George James McIlraith: That is right.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Chairman, I have had so many phone calls lately and committee meetings-


Edwin William Brunsden: And letters.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: -and correspondence-


Edwin William Brunsden: Yes.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: -and visitors-


Edwin William Brunsden: Yes.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: -that I have had very little time to do much reading or get together a few notes in anticipation of the estimates of this important department. However, I do want to say that the members of this group, naturally, having urged the necessity and the need for a Department of Forestry for many years, are very pleased that this department has been formed. In forming this department the government has recognized the importance of the management of our forests, the needs of the industry so far as the department is concerned and, on that account, the necessity for a department whose sole responsibility is to devote its attention to these matters.
Before proceeding I wish to compliment the minister on his appointment as the first Minister of Forestry for Canada. I wish him every success in all he undertakes with respect to the activities of his department. I think it will provide a great opportunity for plenty of work because there are a great many things which require to be done and which have not been done in the past. The minister will have an opportunity to do these things because of the establishment of this department, provided, Mr. Chairman, that in the years to come we see the estimate for the Department of Forestry is considerably greater than $15,464,427. I do not think it would be fair, possibly, on the first estimates of this department to expect too much, but when we consider the importance of the forest industry to the economy of Canada I think it is quite right for hon. members of this house to expect to see that importance recognized in the years ahead by a greatly increased estimate for this department.
Mr. Chairman, as I said before, I am going to speak quite briefly on this subject. The forests of our country, their management and the forest industry are very seriously affected by the policies of both federal and provincial governments. It is one of those spheres where there is a great deal of overlapping in a number of aspects. Therefore the first essential, if this department is going to be a success and if the management of our forests is going to be along the proper lines and our industry is going to prosper, is that there should be co-operation between federal and provincial governments to this end. I do urge that every effort be made 90205-6-390
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on the part of the minister to promote this co-operation, particularly in view of the opportunities provided him as minister of this new department.
I think a second essential is a national policy for the conservation, development and utilization of our renewable natural resources, of which the forest resources are a very major portion. I trust that as a result of the resources for tomorrow conference we will see a step forward in that direction. For years we have urged as a second necessity the need for a national policy to this end. If the department has the funds, if we have the required federal-provincial co-operation, and if we have agreement on principles and policies with respect to the conservation, utilization and development of our natural resources, we are on the right road to steer a steady and permanent course for the greater development of this industry.
I listened with interest to the minister's speech, which naturally on this occasion dealt with the organization of his department. I was glad the minister informed the committee of this organization and certain aspects of it. The minister told us that the heads of branches in this department are, as we anticipated, experienced personnel who have had service in this field. The minister also said that the recruits to the department would be obtained through civil service examinations, and so on.
Then the minister mentioned a matter that is interesting to me. I refer to the co-ordination within the department, particularly with regard to the various branches that have to do with forest management, forest development, forest research, forest products research and research into diseases, pests, and so on. The minister then mentioned his plans for co-ordination with other departments, particularly, I presume, with the Department of Agriculture and the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys. He then mentioned it is the intention of his department to cooperate with various international organizations which are concerned with the international aspects of the development of the forest industry. I think that is a very important segment of the department's activities which can be developed to a greater extent in the years ahead. It is very closely related to the scientific development and utilization of forest products and also to our marketing abroad.
I was interested recently to read an article in Saturday Night. The only reading I do is usually in bed after eleven o'clock in order to try to get some sleep when I have been particularly annoyed by a speech made by someone on the benches opposite. This is an interesting article and very thoughtfully

Supply-Forestry
written by Mr. Robson Black. It expresses a changed relationship between the forest industry and the rest of our economy as well as a changing situation inside the industry itself. The article appeared in the issue of April 2, and it reads in part:
The fortune-tellers who once spelled out Canada's destiny appraised the nation's timberlands as a diminishing and expendable asset in the balance sheets of the future. They did not foresee that a perishable resource can do something better than to perish; it can add and multiply.
That shift in emphasis only occurred because of the change which has come about in the attitude to our forest resources taken by governments and, fortunately, in recent years by industry itself. The writer goes on to say:
The most dramatic proof that Canada has emerged from forest exploitation to "resource management" is the decision of the pulp and paper industry to double production by 1980.
That would have been unheard of 20 years ago.
Such doubling entails an extraction of an additional 15 million cords of wood annually, more than twice as much as is now required. To attain that level of raw material will impose a systematic harvesting of the increment of the tree growth without impairing the total "capital stock". This may seem a curious sequel to early tales of Canadian saw mills "pursuing" the forest from township to township in an ever-widening swath of spoliation. Unfortunately it is from such storied accounts that so many Canadians rate their woodlands as a fugitive possession.
Unfortunately there are many people who still have that conception and who have not realized that a change in direction has taken place. I remember as a boy seeing timber thoughtlessly destroyed, though on a much smaller scale than has happened in the history of eastern Canada. But the assurance that our forests will be managed throughout the years is to be found in a statement such as I have read indicating that planning is taking place for tremendously increased production, because this is where self-interest will guide the activities of these companies engaged in the industry. The tremendous and increasing investment in the industry in plant and equipment will make the wise management of our forests necessary as a means of protecting the investment itself, otherwise the investment would not be made. The article goes on to say:
No other industry is so suited to Canada's natural advantages of great forests, abundant water and power supplies, in the utilization of which pulp and paper manufacture has made its own way without subsidies, price floors, guarantees or other forms of public assistance.
I think that is to the credit of the lumber industry, the pulp and paper industry and all segments of the forest industry. Then I read, further, in this article on the subject of the general situation in the forest industry and the pulp and paper industry:

Legislation and tax structures now encircling forest industry offer little encouragement to those seeking to practice constructive management on their timberlands.
I can assure hon. members that I have personal knowledge of this. I could speak with great feeling on this question.
They effectively erase whatever rewards an operator might expect from paying conservation costs on a public-owned estate. New forest regulations must be drafted, the tenure of licensed woodlands made secure and, in general, the long-outmoded concepts of government partnership with forest industry will have to be re-stated in enlightened terms. Lacking a prompt and liberal re-orientation on the part of the government landlord, the industrial tenant will be in no position to contribute his full quota to national advancement.
That was written, particularly, I think with respect to the type of timber management leases in operation in Ontario and, on a larger scale, in British Columbia. But even those who own their land and timber are suffering from the same disability and this is something to which both federal and provincial governments should give a great deal of attention.
The pulp and paper Industry also faces a hazard of federal political policy that may constrict its competitive position in world trade.
The first hazard is related to uncoordinated and unscientific taxation policies. The next has to do with political policy which may constrict Canada's competitive position in world trade. The writer asks:
To what degree should Canada's economic program be shaped by the needs of her primary natural resources industries? Should protective tariffs and other restraints on imports seek to proliferate secondary enterprises, thereby raising production costs for the export industries and reducing the power of foreign markets to buy Canadian products?
I think there is a good thought there. While we want to promote the development of secondary industry, if we do so by means of protective policies and things of that sort we shall be affecting the greatest sources of our revenue, which are the lands, forests and mines of this country. The writer goes on to refer to Swedish public policy-and there is a lot to be learned from Sweden both in regard to government economics and forest management. He says:
Swedish public policy and advanced technical skills have succeeded in keeping the country's timberlands matched to the needs of 190 pulp or paper mills and 4,000 saw mills. Quite true, secondary industries also have multiplied and greatly prospered but without artificial stimulation. The Swedish government has adhered to a tariff protection scale never higher than 9 per cent, the lowest in the world except for Denmark. The national policy of minimum tariffs is. in effect, an ultimatum to secondary industry to "keep on its toes ", to compete for domestic and export trade through maximum technical efficiency in manufacturing processes and vigorous pursuit of home and foreign buyers.

In conclusion, this writer says:
It is well to decide what Canadian product is most durably founded upon an ascending international demand and is best prepared to bring increase and enrichment to the Canadian people and new security to the nation's most vital natural resource. We must turn to our pulp and paper industry for the answer.
And also, I would say, we must turn to the other basic primary industries of this country upon which we depend so much for our prosperity. The minister dealt with a number of other questions. I wish to emphasize before concluding that I believe there is great scope for increased and improved public relations as one of the functions of the department in order that the Canadian people may better understand what this forest heritage means to them as far as prosperity, economic development and recreation are concerned.
I believe special consideration should be given to the taxation policies of both federal and provincial governments. Do you know, Mr. Chairman, the policies in this respect both federal and provincial are hit and miss in this regard? The large companies in Canada engaged in the forest industry get exemptions in respect of investments in road developments and other developments but the smaller operators do not enjoy the same advantages because of certain technicalities in the Income Tax Act. This is something which the minister will be well advised to consider, namely the position of the small operator under that act as compared with the position of the large operator. In some cases, of course, small operators lose advantages because of ignorance of the provisions and lack of advice from appropriate persons. In British Columbia, at the present time, the government of that province is actually taxing the owner of private land on his capital in standing timber. Not only does he pay land tax and a royalty when his timber is cut but he must pay a tax on his standing timber, too. That is just the same as taxing a man on his capital in the bank, or his capital invested in bonds, or on any other personal asset, rather than taxing him on the revenue, the interest, the income or the profit.
The last item I wish to mention, which I think is of tremendous importance, is the research which is required in respect of marketing. There are new opportunities opening up through the changing of conditions throughout the world. We in British Columbia believe that Asia is going to be one of the great markets in the future for the forest industry of British Columbia. I suggest that this department, in addition to its research into forest management, the protection of 90205-6-3904
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forests from insects and fire, forestry inventory activities, and the roads to resources program, as well as the very necessary research into forest products, should undertake a program of research in respect to marketing possibilities in addition to that which now takes place through the Department of Trade and Commerce.
Mr. Chairman, I have spoken quite briefly in discussing the few items which came to my mind as I sat here. Once again I should like to say to the minister, as one who has spent most of his life among trees, sawdust and horses, that I wish him well in all he undertakes in the management of this department, and look forward in the years ahead to a much larger appropriation and a great extension in his activities.


Mr. Horner (Jasper-Edson):: Mr. Chairman, perhaps the committee will indulge me for a few moments during which time I wish to speak in regard to the estimates of the Department of Forestry. I should first of all like to congratulate the minister on his appointment as the first minister of the Department of Forestry, and suggest that he has a mighty big job on his hands to some extent occasioned by a difficulty in respect to federal-provincial co-operation.
We have heard a great deal this afternoon from the hon. member for Beauce about provincial rights. I suggest to him that, first and foremost, each time a province accepts a right it must also accept a responsibility. My remarks this afternoon will have reference to that subject.
In Alberta at this moment the forest areas are suffering from the most serious forest fire situation which has existed for some time. There are over 105,000 acres of forest land either burning, or burnt off. There have been 367 fires in the Edson area alone, with 30,000 acres of forest land burnt off or now burning. This is a very serious situation. I asked the Minister of National Defence on Tuesday last whether he had received a request for the assistance of the armed service. His reply was that he had not received such a request. I suggest this is the type of problem in regard to which there must exist federal-provincial co-operation. It appears that because of an unnatural pride on the part of some in regard to provincial rights the people of northwestern Alberta are facing a serious handicap which they should not have to face. At this moment, in all the towns of that area other industries are suffering serious hardships because of the fact that all available manpower is out on the fire lines. It seems reasonable to me to suggest that a co-ordinating council at

Supply-Forestry
the federal level should be established to coordinate fire fighting activities in all provinces of Canada, so as to make available all the firefighting equipment possible, and to establish a system to facilitate the successful use of air force and army personnel to fight these very serious outbreaks of fires which are now taking place.
I should like to point out that there appears to be some delay particularly in respect of Alberta in making requests for help. This might well be the result of political reasoning more than because individuals do not wish more to be done in regard to this serious situation.
Before I conclude, Mr. Chairman, I should like again to make the suggestion I made to the minister shortly after his appointment. The forestry laboratories located at Kan-anaskis should be moved to the centre of the forest industry in Alberta, which I suggest is the Hinton-Edson area. I make this suggestion to him again because I feel that the centre of the timber industry in Alberta, being in that area, would lend itself to closer cooperation between the department's research facilities and the commercial operators so that the gap which it is felt has developed, between the research done by the department and the research it is felt should be done, might be lessened or perhaps eliminated.
I feel that the amount of money which the federal government is paying on a shared basis with the provinces, particularly in regard to forest inventories, reforestation and forest protection, should be considered seriously with a view to making sure that the
provinces not only accept their rights but accept their responsibilities.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Chairman, may I call it six o'clock.
Resolutions adopted in committee of supply this day reported and concurred in.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

George James McIlraith: I wonder whether the house leader could indicate if the business for Monday and Tuesday is as was indicated at the conclusion of the sitting last night, and whether he is in a position to indicate what estimates will be taken up next week?


Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Speaker, the legislative items which I indicated would be taken for Monday and Tuesday will retain their order, except for one matter which has appeared in Votes and Proceedings today. That is the motion in the name of the Prime Minister for the appointment of a special committee to consider and recommend changes which should be made to the War Measures Act. That will be the first item of business for Monday, which will be followed by the bill in respect to the Canada Shipping Act, and the other items that I outlined on Friday. In so far as the estimates are concerned, those of the Department of Public Works will be called next week. I do not think I shall go any further than that because of changes and adjustments that have been made during the last three weeks to accommodate individuals on both sides of the house.


[Stage Direction]
At six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to special order.

[The following items were passed in committee of supply]:
ROYAL CANADIAN MOUNTED POLICE Headquarters administration and national police
services-
378.	Operation and maintenance, $7,904,906.
379.	Construction	or	acquisition	of	buildings,
works, land and equipment, $85,088.
Land, air and training divisions-
380.	Operation and maintenance, $41,915,086.
381.	Construction	or	acquisition	of	buildings,
works, land and equipment, $4,051,062.
Marine services-
382.	Operation and maintenance, $1,886,590.
383.	Construction	or	acquisition	of	buildings,
works, land and equipment, $103,976.
384.	Grant to the Canadian association of chiefs of police. $500.
385.	Grant to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police veterans' association, $500.
Pensions and other benefits-
386.	Pensions to families of members of the mounted police who have lost their lives while on duty, as detailed in the estimates, $14,022.
Land, air and training divisions-
578.	Operation and maintenance-further amount required, $202,627.
Marine services-
579.	Construction or acquisition of buildings works, land and equipment-further amount required, $10,888.
Pensions and other benefits-
580.	Pensions to families of members of the mounted police who have lost their lives while on duty, as detailed in the estimates-further amount required, $1,872.
Loans, investments and advances-
Justice-Penitentiaries-
600. To increase to $1,000,000 the amount that may be charged at any time to the revolving fund established by vote 628 of the Appropriation Act No. 2, 1955, and extended by vote 657 of the Appropriation Act No. 5, 1958, for the purpose of acquiring and managing any stores or materials required for penitentiary use; additional amount required, $400,000.

[Stage Direction]
134.	Industrial development service, $806,750.
135.	Field services administration, $1,060,400. Conservation and development service-
136.	Operation and maintenance, $6,495,000.
137.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $2,258,200.
138.	Inspection and consumer service, $2,438,950.
139.	Fishermen's indemnity plan administration, $278,000.
Supply-Items Passed
Special-
140.	Canadian share of expenses of the international commissions detailed in the estimates, $930,000.
141.	Acquisition of land and construction of a research field station for the international Pacific salmon fisheries commission, $110,000.
142.	Newfoundland bait service, $534,700.
143.	Educational work in fisheries techniques and co-operative producing and selling among fishermen, $115,000.
144.	Fisheries Prices Support Act administration,
[Stage Direction]
145.	Payment subject to such terms and conditions as the governor in council prescribes, of assistance to producers of salted fish on products designated by the governor in council, in the amount of 50 per cent of the laid down cost of salt purchased for their production, including authority to charge administrative costs to the vote in these estimates which provides for administration of the Fisheries Prices Support Act, $600,000.
146.	Assistance in the construction of vessels of the dragger or long-liner type, subject to such terms and conditions as may be approved by the governor in council, $350,000.
147.	Assistance in the construction of bait freezing and storage facilities, subject to the regulations established by the governor in council, $30,000.
148.	Destruction of dogfish and other predators, $150,000.
Fisheries research board of Canada-
149.	Headquarters administration, $221,850.
150.	Operation and maintenance including an amount of $55,000 for contributions towards fisheries research and for scholarships, and authority to make recoverable advances of amounts not exceeding in the aggregate the amount of the share of the international great lakes fishery commission of the cost of work on lamprey control and lamprey research, $4,653,075.
151. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $1,469,700. Conservation and development service-
521. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and	equipment-further amount required, $263,866.
522.	Inspection and consumer service-further amount required, $155,000.
Special-
523.	Canadian share of expenses of the international commissions detailed in the estimates- further amount required, $200,000.
524.	Newfoundland bait service-further amount required, $30,000.
525.	Assistance in the construction of vessels of the dragger or long liner type-further amount required, $150,000.
Fisheries research board of Canada-
526.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment-further amount required, $124,300.
[Stage Direction]
Monday, June 12, 1961