1960-11-23

STATEMENT ON REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

Hon. Paul Comtois (Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to make a statement concerning the implementation of the report of the royal commission on coal.
Hon. members who have carefully read the report of the royal commission on coal know what a complex document it is. They know how intensively its information, implications, proposals and recommendations must be studied, in relation to existing provisions and assistance for coal, before appropriate decisions can be reached on the practicality of certain of the report's recommendations. In short, the Rand report is the type of public document which demands the most serious study from each of us. It is also the type of document which demands the most serious, systematic and meticulous study by the government.
I can inform you that such a study by the government is in progress. It is occupying the attention of an interdepartmental committee consisting of senior officers of the Department of Finance, the Department of Trade and Commerce, the Department of Labour, the privy council office, the national energy board and the dominion coal board, under the chairmanship of a senior officer of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys.
The committee has been given clear and specific instructions. It is "to study and report to the cabinet on the recommendations of the royal commission on coal relating to subsidies and research" and on such representations as have been received by the government.
While such a thorough evaluation of the Rand report is in progress, hon. members will not, I think, expect me to have formed final opinions regarding its recommendations.


Mr. H. J. Robichaud (Gloucester):: Mr. Speaker, I know that every member of this house welcomes the statement by the minister on the Rand report so early in the session, but we regret that no decision has yet been reached to take care of an urgent situation.
It is very difficult to state in detail, in reply to a ministerial statement, the attitude of the official opposition to the complicated matters which are affecting the coal industry, especially as they are covered in the Rand report.
Mr. Speaker, in my view the recommendations in the report do not provide a satisfactory answer to the human and social problems that are involved in the cut-backs and possible closures of some coal mines in Cape Breton, or the requirements of the coal industry of the province of New Brunswick. I know that later on this session we will have an opportunity to discuss fully the problems concerning the coal industry in New Brunswick, and on that occasion I expect to have the full co-operation of the Minister of Forestry (Mr. Flemming).
In reply to the statement made by the minister I wish to put forward three suggestions which I feel should be studied before the recommendations-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Mr. Speaker:: I think the hon. member has probably gone as far as our practice permits. Actually he is not called upon to reply to or to debate any of the issues raised by the statement of information which was presented by the minister. He is given the right to comment in an interim way, without debating the issue, so as not to let any point go by default pending the time when it will come before the house. It seems to me that the hon. member has gone as far as is usually permitted in commenting on statements of this kind.


Hédard-J. Robichaud: On a point of order, may I be allowed just to say that we are not satisfied with the statement made by the minister. We have suggestions to offer which could be seriously considered by the government at this time and which, if implemented, would take care of the situation.


Mr. Speaker:: I think the statement does not open up more than the procedure adopted by the government. It does not open up the issues involved in the report itself. As I understood the minister's statement, it was to explain that interdepartmental study had been requested and is going forward on this particular report. It did not attempt to deal with any of the issues involved in the matter under study by the commission.

Starred Questions


Mr. Harold E. Winch (Vancouver East):: We welcome very much the announcement made by the minister at this time of the comprehensive study which is being undertaken by various departments, including the privy council, in connection with the coal mining situation and the studies and recommendations of the Rand royal commission. Our only comment at this time is that we hope the minister can give an assurance that pending a report of the departmental group which is now studying this question every action will be taken to maintain the present degree of employment, and that no mines will be closed, as has been contemplated, until the report has been received.



CANADA ELECTIONS ACT


Mr. Jean-Paul Racine (Beauce) moved: for leave to introduce Bill No. C-41, to amend the Canada Elections Act (age of voters).


Mr. Pickersgill:: Explain.
(Translation):


Jean-Paul Racine: Mr. Speaker, this bill is identical to the one I introduced during the last session. Its purpose is to provide that the age of voters under the Canaa Elections Act shall be 18 years in lieu of 21 years as at present.
(Text):
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



STARRED QUESTIONS


Mr. Chevrier: 1.	Did the Department of Transport unwater the Soulanges canal? If so, when and for what purpose?
2.	Is the department building a causeway along the route of the canal? If so, where, and is it the intention of the Department of Transport to build causeways elsewhere along the canal, and where?
3.	Did an engineer of the Department of Transport recommend the unwatering of the whole canal for the purpose of building a causeway in this specific area?
4.	Who took the decision to unwater the canal for this purpose?
5.	Was consideration given to the construction of a cofferdam around the causeway rather than unwatering the canal? Why was this not done?


Hon. Leon Balcer (Minisfer of Transport):: The answer to part 1 is that the portion of the canal from lock No. 4 to lake St. Francis was unwatered on October 10, 1960, for the purpose of building in the dry a causeway to replace bridge No. 6.
The answer to the first part of question 2 is answered by No. 1. As to the second part, there are seven bridges across the Soulanges canal, two of them on lock structures, and it

is proposed to replace the remaining five with causeways because the bridges are in poor condition and unsuitable for modern traffic.
As to parts 3 and 4, the department decided that only that portion of the canal where the work was to be carried out should be unwatered, as mentioned in the answer to No. 1.
With regard to part 5, no consideration was given to constructing the causeway between cofferdams on account of the additional expenditure involved.


POWER EXPORTS TO U.S.
Mr. Chevrier: 1.	Did the Hydro-Electric Power Commission of Ontario apply to the national energy board for permission to export power to the United States at Cornwall, Ontario, and other points along the international border? If so, to whom was the power sought to be exported?
2.	What was the reason for this application?
3.	Did the city of Cornwall intervene to objec\ to this application? If so, for what reasons?
4.	Did the Hydro-Electric Power Commission of Ontario refuse to sell power to Stormont Electric Light and Power Company Limited and St. Lawrence Power Company Limited, two power companies with head offices in the city of Cornwall, both doing business in the area? If so, for what reason?
5.	Did the Hydro-Electric Power Commission of Ontario when applying for permission to develop power at the Long Sault, state through the government of Canada to the international joint commission and/or the federal power commission that the Long Sault was the last available source of power in southern Ontario, and in view of the increasing demand necessitating additional sources for the supply of electrical power in Ontario there was urgent need for immediate action to meet the power requirements of that province?
6.	Did the national energy board make a ruling upon this application?


Hon. George H. Hees (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: Mr. Speaker, as the answer to this question requires a very lengthy and complicated statement, I wonder if the question could stand for the time being. I expect to have an answer available at a later date.
Question stands.


UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE ADVISORY COMMITTEE
Mr. Howard: 1.	Has the unemployment insurance advisory committee met since October 1, 1960?
2.	If so, has a report and recommendations been made?
3.	What are the recommendations?


Hon. Michael Siarr (Minister of Labour):: Mr. Speaker, the answers to these questions are as follows:
1.	Yes; the unemployment insurance advisory committee met on October 27, 1960.
2.	A report has recently been made by the committee to the governor in council containing recommendations.

3.	The report of the committee including these recommendations is receiving study and consideration. A copy of the report of the committee including these recommendations will be tabled in parliament within the period of time prescribed by section 90 of the Unemployment Insurance Act and the recommendations will thus be available to hon. members at that time.


UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE FUND
Mr. Howard: What was the amount to the credit of the unemployment insurance commission fund as of (a) July 31, 1957, 1958, 1959, 1960; (b) August 31,
Starred Questions
1957, 1958, 1959, 1960; (c) September 30, 1957, 1958, 1959, 1960; (d) October 31, 1957, 1958, 1959, 1960?


Hon. Donald M. Fleming (Minister of Finance):: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that the answers to these questions consist entirely of figures-indeed, 16 figures and 176 digits in all-might I have leave of the house to place the answer on the record without reading it, in order to save the time of the house?


Mr. Speaker:: Has the minister leave to have this answer printed without reading it?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
[Editor's note: The answer referred to above is as follows:]
(a)	(b)	(c)	(d)
July 31	August 31 September 30 October 31
1957	
$862,023,425.84	$870,379,844.64	$878,248,621.73	$884,800,516.261958	
640,291,006.61	640,909,350.83	643,876,775.25	643,934,049.601959	
441,357,140.97	448,660,846.96	455,238,779.41	464,834,421.331960	306,363,607.24	313,327,675.04	319,476,441.77	329,072,495.46


CANADIAN TRADE WITH CUBA
Mr. Argue: 1.	What is the current policy of the Canadian government with reference to trade with Cuba?
2.	Has there been any expansion in Canadian trade with Cuba since January 1, 1960?
3.	If so:	(a) what commodities have been so
affected in (i) exports; (ii) imports? (b) what has been the total increase in dollar value of each commodity (i) exported; (ii) imported?


George Harris Hees: Mr. Speaker, in answer to the first question, the government's policy is to maintain normal trade relations with Cuba. Within this framework Canadian exporters and importers continue to be at liberty to trade with Cuba.
In answer to the second question, according to the latest available trade statistics there has not been any expansion in Canadian trade with Cuba since January 1, 1960 as compared with the same period in 1959. The latest trade figures are as follows, in tabulated form:
Canadian Exports to Cuba
January to September 1959	1960
$11,260,578	$7,501,658
Canadian Imports from Cuba
January to August 1959	1960
$8,797,449	$6,087,860
With respect to question 3, in view of the negative answer to question number 2 no answer seems to be required.



TRADE WITH CUBA


Mr. Argue: 1.	Has the Canadian government received any representations from the government of the United States since January 1, 1960, to modify or restrict its trade relations with Cuba in any way?
2.	If so:	(a) what were the contents of any
such representations? (b) on what date were they made? (c) what was the nature of the Canadian reply?


Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, the Canadian government has received no representations. Therefore part 2 of the question becomes inapplicable.



FLIN FLON AIRPORT


Mr. Badanai: 1.	Has a contract been awarded for the construction of the Flin Flon airport?
2.	If so, who was the successful contractor?
3.	What other bids were received and what were the amounts of each?


Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker, the answer to part 1 is yes.
The answer to part 2 is Tallman Construction Company Limited, Winnipeg, Manitoba.
As to part 3, ten tenders in all were received, and the two lowest prices quoted were as follows:	Haequoil's Construction
Company Limited, Fort William, Ontario, $1,144,561.70; Tallman Construction Company Limited, Winnipeg, Manitoba, $1,169,790.50.
Our invitation requested tenderers to quote the number of working days to complete the work, in accordance with our normal practice. Hacquoil's submitted a period of 300 working days; Tallman a period of 150 working days. Since working days are calculated from the date of the contract award and allowance must be made, in addition, for week

Starred Questions
ends, holidays and unfavourable weather, it was clear that the first mentioned bid meant a two-year project.
Apart from the urgency to complete the airport next year in view of technical limitations in connection with the present Flin Flon airstrip, examination of the two bids disclosed the additional expense to the department for engineering, inspection, supervision, etc., for a further 150 days would be greater than the difference between the two bids. In the circumstances the contract was awarded to Tail-man Construction.



UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE CLAIMANTS

Mr. Robichaud: 1.	What was the number of persons claiming unemployment insurance benefits as of the most recent date for which such data is available?
2.	What was the number of persons claiming unemployment insurance benefits as of similar dates for the years 1958 and 1959?


Michael Starr: The answer to part 1 of this question is: October 31, 1960, 330,223. The answer to part 2 is October 31, 1959, 250,583; October 31, 1958, 323,530.



UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE FUND

Mr. Robichaud: What was the amount remaining in the unemployment insurance fund on the last day of August, September and October 1960, as compared with similar dates for the years 1958 and 1959?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, since the answer to this question consists of nine large figures running to 99 digits, may I ask leave of the house to put this answer on record without reading it, in order to save the time of the house.


Mr. Speaker:: Does the house give consent to the suggestion of the minister?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
[Editor's note: The answer referred to above is as follows;]
1958	1959	1960Aug.	31	$640,909,350.83	$448,660,846.96	$313,327,675.04Sept.	30	643,876,775.25	455,238,779.41	319,476,441.77Oct.	31	643,934,049.60	464,834,421.33	329,072,495.46



QUESTION PASSED AS ORDER FOR RETURN


Mr. Martin (Essex East): 1.	What specific trades are being taught to unemployed workers through the federal-provincial vocational training plan?
2.	What provinces are now participating in this plan?
3.	What provinces have indicated their intention to increase their facilities for giving vocational training to unemployment workers?

4.	What is the total number of persons at present being given vocational training through federal-provincial training agreements?



NATIONAL DEFENCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. L. B. Pearson (Leader of the
Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Prime Minister whether any decision has been made by the government regarding the acquisition of nuclear weapons or warheads for Canadian forces and, if not, whether one is expected to be made before long.
John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, there is nothing further to report in addition to previous statements made in this house. I would refer the hon. gentleman to what was said on January 19, 1959; February 20, 1959; January 18, 1960; February 9, 1960; July 4, 1960 and July 14, 1960.



EXTERNAL AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Hazen Argue (Assiniboia):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to address a question to the Prime Minister. Can the Prime Minister say whether any plans are under way to invite President-elect Kennedy to Canada after his inauguration to discuss outstanding trade and defence problems?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I think it would be a little premature at this time to be giving consideration to an invitation to be extended to the President-elect of the United States. His time between now and his inauguration will naturally be taken up very fully in preparation for administrative and executive responsibilities; then, for a considerable period after he is inaugurated, his time will be taken up with the ordinary processes and functions of government. Some months will elapse.
However, I can assure the hon. member that in the past the relationships between the President of the United States, Mr. Eisenhower, and myself have been warm and cordial, and exchanges of views to the benefit of both countries have taken place from time to time. Therefore I am sure Canadians as a whole will look forward to a similar condition of affairs when President-elect Kennedy takes office. Indeed, in a message to me in the last few days he expressed the hope that those amicable relations between our countries will continue in the years ahead.


UNITED NATIONS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Paul Hellyer (Triniiy):: Mr. Speaker,
I should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Defence. Has the minister any supplementary information he can give the house in regard to the very serious incident which occurred at the officers' mess at Leopoldville in the Congo on Monday night?


Hon. D. S. Harkness (Minister of National Defence):: I have had some telegrams in connection with the situation there. Perhaps I can summarize it in this way.
On Monday night at approximately 7.45 p.m. a force of Congolese troops attacked the Ghana embassy in Leopoldville. The Canadian signal corps officers' mess, which is some 250 yards away from the embassy, was hit by small arms fire and at least two shells from 37 millimetre guns. The firing was heavy for approximately three hours and sporadic for the balance of the night.
Canadian personnel of the 57th signal unit are billeted in the Athenee Royal building 500 yards from the Ghana embassy. That building was not attacked directly although some officers moving from the mess were fired upon. I am very glad to be able to report to the house that there were no Canadian casualties as a result of this incident. The situation remains tense and the Canadian signals personnel, including officers as well as men, are remaining in the Athenee Royal. This building was formerly a boys' school and houses the Canadian signal establishment in Leopoldville, including the tape relay centre and the main radio transmitter, thus they will be able to continue in operation.


CONGO'-CANADIAN ABSTENTION FROM VOTE ON DELEGATION
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Lucien Cardin (Richelieu-Vercheres):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs. Does the abstention yesterday by the Canadian delegation from the vote to seat the Congolese delegation at the United Nations mean that the Canadian government no longer recognizes Joseph Kasavubu as president of the Congolese republic?


Hon. Howard C. Green (Secretary of State for External Affairs):: No, Mr. Speaker. The abstention yesterday by the representatives of Canada at the United Nations means that we are following our policy of deciding what we think is the best policy for Canada and
Inquiries of the Ministry voting and acting accordingly, regardless of what influence may be brought to bear on us by other countries.
The position in this particular case is that Canada is one of the three European and North American countries having troops in the Congo, the other two being Sweden and Ireland. I think there are 18 contingents altogether and the remaining 15 are from Asia and Africa. Each of these 18 countries has a representative on what is called the advisory committee on the Congo, which has been meeting quite frequently and dealing with the problems that arise in connection with the United Nations forces in the Congo.
Until yesterday no one had been seated to represent the Congo at the United Nations, and in view of our having troops there and being on this committee we decided that we would not participate in the disputes with respect to who should represent the Congo in the United Nations. That is the reason we abstained yesterday, and we have also abstained on earlier motions. We abstained on a vote brought about by the countries which were anxious to seat representatives of Prime Minister Lumumba.
That is all that should be taken from the vote yesterday. Sweden and Ireland also abstained, and I think all but a handful of the African and Asian countries which are on this committee and have forces in the Congo also abstained.


REPORTED POSSIBLE WITHDRAWAL OF TROOPS FOR FINANCIAL REASONS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Harold Edward Winch: should like to address a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs. As Canada has troops in the Congo, and in view of the reported statement of the secretary general of the United Nations that it may be necessary to withdraw all troops and assistance from the Congo because of the financial position of the United Nations, can the minister bring us up to date on that situation and give us any indication of Canada's reaction thereto and policy thereon?


Howard Charles Green: I do not think there is any prospect, certainly in the immediate future, of the troops being withdrawn from the Congo. There may have been talk of that kind from time to time, but I think perhaps it is just talk. No such action is under way of which I am aware.


Harold Edward Winch: As I understand it, this was a statement made by the secretary general of the United Nations, namely that because

Inquiries of the Ministry of the seriousness of the financial situation it may be necessary to withdraw all troops.


Howard Charles Green: I did not see that statement made by the secretary general. It would be, of course, an extremely difficult situation if the United Nations became unable to finance the operations in the Congo, but that point has not been reached yet and I certainly hope it will not be reached. I think the United Nations is doing an excellent job in the Congo.


Hon. L. B. Pearson (Leader of the Opposition):: I have a supplementary question. Is it not the case that the Canadian government is paying the expenses of all its own forces in the Congo?


Howard Charles Green: As I understand it, I think the situation is similar to the arrangement made for the Canadian forces in the Gaza strip with the United Nations emergency force. We pay the pay and various allowances but the other costs are costs of the United Nations.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Rations, quarters and so on are supplied by the United Nations.


Howard Charles Green: Rations and quarters are supplied by the United Nations, my colleague the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Harkness) tells me. The government will be asking the house to approve a vote of $1 million to help pay the administrative expenses in the Congo, but I think the United Nations will be obliged to raise a sum-I am not sure of the figure- which might be as high as from $75 million to $100 million for this purpose. We have made a commitment to the United Nations to pay $1 million subject to approval being given by parliament.
This does not involve the expenses of the forces. These expenses will have to be found by the United Nations over and above the special amount required to pay for actual administration in the Congo. The situation has been so difficult and so unusual in the Congo that the United Nations is having to pay this large sum of money in order to keep some type of administration going.



PENITENTIARIES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hédard-J. Robichaud: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Justice or in his absence to his parliamentary secretary. Is the parliamentary secretary in a position to confirm the news circulating today in newspapers in the maritime provinces, as well as on radio and television, to the effect that a serious disorder or riot took place at Dorchester penitentiary


over the week end? If so, is the parliamentary secretary in a position to report to the house on the nature and cause of the incident?


Mr. Thomas M. Bell (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice):: I will take notice of this question and refer it to the minister for reply on his return.



COLUMBIA RIVER


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. W. Herridge (Kootenay West):: Mr. Speaker, owing to the absence of the Minister of Justice I wish to direct a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs. I apologize for not sending notice, but I have had an unusually busy morning. Would the minister inform the house whether negotiations between representatives of the governments of Canada and the United States or the government of British Columbia are proceeding at any place in Canada at the present time or are likely to occur in the near future?


Howard Charles Green: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I have had a very busy morning myself attending a conference in the east block between ministers representing the federal government and ministers representing the government of British Columbia on the question of the Columbia river.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. S. Speakman (Wetaskiwin):: I have a question for the Minister of Labour, and I must apologize for not having sent him notice of it. Has the minister anything further to report on negotiations in the strike of grain handlers at Vancouver?


Michael Starr: have nothing additional to report beyond what I said yesterday on the orders of the day, except that they are meeting with the commissioner of inquiry in Vancouver at the present time.



CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. G. R. McWilliam (Norlhumberland-Miramichi):: I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Transport, notice of which I sent to his office this morning. Can the minister advise the house whether a decision has been

reached by the board of transport commissioners on the application of Canadian National Railways to discontinue railway passenger service on the Newcastle-Fredericton subdivision. If a decision has been reached, what is the content of the board's order?


Léon Balcer: I am advised that on November 22, 1960, the board of transport commissioners issued a judgment and order authorizing Canadian National Railways to discontinue operation of their passenger trains Nos. 627 and 628 between Newcastle and Fredericton upon not less than one month's notice filed with the board and posted in the stations on the line for the information of the public.



REQUEST FOR STATEMENT ON CURRENT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Huberi Badanai (Fort William):: I have a question for the Minister of Trade and Commerce. In view of the importance to Canada's trade of the negotiations currently taking place under the auspices of GATT, is the minister in a position to inform the house of any new developments in these negotiations?


George Harris Hees: No, Mr. Speaker. Discussions are going on regarding GATT at the present time. I have no new announcement to make at this time.


Hubert Badanai: I have a supplementary
question. Will the minister undertake to keep the house informed of any future developments from time to time?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I am not sure that it is an administrative responsibility to give such undertakings. It is a duty to inform.
(Translation):



CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. O. Latour (Argenleuil-Deux-Montagnes):: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of National Revenue (Mr. Nowlan) a question.
Last week, during a television broadcast from Montreal, a politician criticized the C.B.C. and, in view of the reply given at that time by the officials, I would like to know from the minister how much time has been allowed to each of the political parties, provincial and federal, since January 1, 1960,
Inquiries of the Ministry at that Montreal television station, and how much time has been given to each of those parties, during each broadcast or interview, and what are the names of those who took part in each of those broadcasts or interviews?
(Text):


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member's question seems to call for a good bit of information about events that have passed. I suggest that he put it on the order paper.



FORESTRY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John Whitney Pickersgill: I should like to ask the Prime Minister whether he has any comments to make on a report attributed to a distinguished journalist, namely Mr. Richard Jackson, which he in turn attributes to the Minister of Forestry (Mr. Flemming), to the effect that he feels like- and these words are in quotation marks-a "homeless waif". The report continues:
"There is just no place around the capital'', he lamented on his way into cabinet, "for a working man to put down his desk."


John George Diefenbaker: In view of the province which he represents, the hon. gentleman has been away, apparently, and misunderstands the meaning of the expression. I do not.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I have a supplementary question. Can the Prime Minister inform the house what staff has been transferred from other departments to the Department of Forestry, and on what date the transfer was made?


Some hon. Members:: Order paper.


John George Diefenbaker: Being fully acquainted with the rules of the house, Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman will realize that this is a question for the order paper.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I rise on a point of order.


Mr. Speaker:: I think the Prime Minister himself has raised a point of order about the hon. member's question, namely that it is more appropriately one for the order paper. In the terms in which the hon. member asked it, I think it would be more appropriate for the order paper.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I rise on a point of order, and it is this. Yesterday, in reply to my hon. friend the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Pearson), the Prime Minister said it was his duty to announce to the house any changes or transfers of functions or duties under the transfer of duties act or similar legislation. I am now asking the Prime Minister whether any of the staff of the department of northern affairs or the Department of Agriculture has
118	HOUSE OF
Inquiries of the Ministry in fact been transferred to the new department as provided for under the legislation and, if so, on what date?


An hon. Member:: Put it on the order paper.


Mr. Speaker:: I think a general inquiry like that as to whether any of the staff has been transferred, without asking for particulars of personnel, and which relates to administrative responsibility in the current re-organization of departments, would be in order.



HARBOURS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker, on Monday the hon. member for Trinity-Conception raised the question of the removal of the old lighthouse at Harbour Grace.
I have made inquiries and am advised that the condition of this lighthouse, which, as the hon. member knows, is of wooden construction, is such that it cannot be repaired nor can it be moved. It is estimated that to replace it with a building of the same design would cost at least $16,000, while a modern steel construction would cost $2,000.
I am sorry to say, Mr. Speaker, that on account of the very substantial difference in cost the department feels it must proceed with the construction of the steel type of lighthouse.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Harold Edward Winch: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the right hon. Prime Minister a question based on a recognition of priorities at this time, with government business before this house. In view of the paramount importance of issues which are now before the fifteenth session of the general assembly of the United Nations, and the international picture, is consideration being given to the earliest possible opportunity for a discussion on the Congo and international policy matters?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I entirely agree with the hon. gentleman as to the need of a full discussion on the international situation at the earliest possible date. There are many problems which face us today on which it would be most helpful to have the views of parliament.


This is also another matter that will be of interest to all hon. members. I expect shortly to be able to announce the date of the prime ministers' conference to be held in London, at which matters of signal importance to the commonwealth will arise and in respect of which the views of hon. members as to the attitude which they take to these problems would be most helpful. Subject to an arrangement being made between those who are in charge of the processes of the house in order to have the house operate efficiently and constructively, I will do everything I can to expedite an early discussion on these very important matters.



NATIONAL HOUSING ACT


[Stage Direction]
period; to increase aggregate amount; to

[Stage Direction]
The house resumed, from Tuesday, November 22, consideration in committee of the following resolution-Mr. Walker-Mr. Flynn in the chair:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to amend the National Housing Act, 1954, to further encourage the demand for housing by increasing the loan ratios and extending the periods of repayment for loans made to home owners and home builders and for rental housing; to increase from $25 million to $50 million the aggregate amount that may be paid out of the consolidated revenue fund for urban redevelopment purposes; to increase from $200 million to $500 million the amount of home improvement loans that may be guaranteed under part IV of the act by Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation; to authorize the corporation to undertake jointly with provincial governments and municipalities the acquisition, improvement and conversion of existing buildings in urban renewal areas for housing purposes; to authorize the corporation to make loans to universities to assist in the construction of residential accommodation for students; to authorize the corporation to make loans and rebates thereon to municipalities or other competent municipal authorities to assist in the construction of sewage projects for the elimination of pollution and to provide further for certain changes in connection with the administration of the act.
Mr. Thomas:: Mr. Chairman, when the house rose last night I was discussing the desirability of providing houses for Canadian people at prices within their reach. On reading through the resolution and the remarks of the minister introducing it, I note that there are six very important provisions which are to be included in the proposed amendments.
One of these is the increase in the loan ratio, which is proposed to be increased from 90 per cent of the appraised lending value of the home to 95 per cent of the appraised lending value. This will have the effect of decreasing the down payment very considerably. It will now be possible for home owners to purchase a home-providing the sale price is in reasonable relation to the

appraised lending value-with a valuation of from $12,000 to $14,000 with a down payment of $600. With the previous loan ratio of 90 per cent of the appraised lending value of such a home the down payment would be $1,200.
Another measure taken to make it easier for people of limited income to purchase and pay for homes are the mortgage repayment terms, which are proposed to be extended from 30 to 35 years. It is estimated that on a $12,000 home this additional time given in connection with the mortgage repayments will decrease the monthly payment by approximately $3.50.
There is one other point in connection with these proposed amendments that I would like to briefly discuss. This concerns the interest rate charged. To be sure that what I have to say is correct I would like to refer to the minister's statement of yesterday, on page 91 of Hansard, where he was discussing this matter of the interest rate. The minister used these words:
It has been suggested by some that demand could be stimulated-
That is, the demand for houses.
-by a lowering of the interest rate as well.
There he is referring to these other proposed provisions in the amendment.
So it could, but in the present market a lower interest rate would reduce the amount of private lending under the act, and place heavier pressure on the federal government to meet the increased demand for loans. Even today, with the moderation in the pressure of demand which I have already mentioned, the federal government through C.M.H.C. is still carrying a large part of the lending load and hon. members will keep in mind that we are just residual lenders; we make no direct loans unless the borrower has been refused by a bank or by another approved lender. It is no part of our intention to increase the demand for housing funds and at the same time kill the incentive of private lenders to supply as much of the funds as possible. Again I cannot forget the way in which the funds dried up toward the end of 1959, when an interest rate of 6 per cent became totally unrealistic and when the borrowers turned in droves and in the thousands to the government to help them out of their dilemma.
I can fully appreciate the import of those words and the reasoning behind them. I believe it was necessary in 1959 to raise the interest rate on these housing loans, and I am quite willing to accept the minister's contention on behalf of the government that it is necessary to continue the present interest rate of 6J per cent. However, I am assured that this matter is kept under constant review, and I urge upon the minister and the government the desirability of lowering the interest rates on housing loans just as soon as conditions in the money market make this practicable.
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Mr. Baldwin:: I cannot but be impressed by the magnitude and scope of the undertaking which the Minister of Public Works has envisaged in the resolution which has been placed before us for consideration. I am quite sure-and I say this having had an opportunity of reading some of the press comments-that this will stimulate the imagination and advance the thinking of people in Canada. I think this is more than indicated by the attitude taken by the opposition. We hear sometimes of damning with faint praise, but the attitude of the opposition has, on the contrary, been that of praising with faint and feeble damns.
The scope of the various items in the proposed legislation which have been incorporated in this resolution has left the official opposition breathless. I have no doubt that such a resolution would have taken them years to conceive and many more years to bring before parliament. As the hon. member who has just resumed his seat pointed out, there are six separate and definite items contained in this resolution. Each of them would, in itself, amount to a tremendous undertaking. When put together in one resolution they will do a great deal for the economy of Canada.
I had the opportunity yesterday of hearing the hon. member for Burnaby-Coquitlam who generally, I think, approved the principles contained in this resolution. However, I did not quite understand what he was driving at when he said, as reported at page 100 of Hansard:
I should like to pose the problem to him which this represents to a person over 30 years of age. In most plants in Canada the normal retirement age is 65. I am afraid that a large number of people who have been eligible under the old arrangement and who are past the age of 30 will now become ineligible because, as the minister knows, very many people are just on the borderline of being eligible.
It seems to me that is not a valid criticism. The question of eligibility is based on factors which apply at the time the application is actually made. However, before coming to that part of his contribution the hon. member did say something on which I intend to enlarge briefly. As reported at page 90, he referred to the pricing of lots in outlying areas close to metropolitan centres. I think I can do no better here than to read a brief quotation from Time magazine which appeared in the Canadian edition of August 29, 1960. I endorse and adopt the language and phrasing as well as the thoughts behind this quotation. This article begins on page 58; it is entitled "The Costly Earth" and says:
The man who faces inflation's crudest bite is the U.S. home builder who starts off in search of land for his dream house.

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I might paraphrase here and say "The Canadian home builder" because this applies equally to Canada.
Since 1950 the price of U.S. land for home building has soared anywhere from 100 per cent to 3,760 per cent-while building material prices have climbed a less spectacular 24 per cent and building trade wages 60 per cent.
In parts of Miami, land worth $500 an acre ten years ago sells for $7,500 ... Result: the family that wants to build in the suburbs now has to pay 19 per cent of a house's total cost for a far-out piece of land v. 12 per cent on a similar house in 1950 for land much closer to the city.
I have had some personal experience of that situation and I suggest that those figures are very moderate. After I came back from overseas in 1945 1 built a house near a large centre, in 1946 and 1947, and the percentage which the value of the land bore to the total cost of the house was approximately 6 per cent. Not more than two years ago, when I was interested in acquiring another property, I discovered that I was paying 18 or 19 per cent of the total cost for the land alone, just as is suggested in the article from which I have read. This process, if it continues, may have very serious consequences.
I continue to quote from this article, which is a citation from House & Home, a United States periodical:
In city and suburb alike, says House & Home, the present tax structure harnesses the profit motive backward; it abets speculation, penalizes development. Underdeveloped land and vacant city lots are taxed, on the average, at less than 25 per cent valuation across the U.S. v. 40.8 per cent for business properties. Land, comprising one third of the U.S. national wealth, carries less than 5 per cent of the total tax load. Not suprisingly, land speculation has made more millionaires since world war II than any other form of U.S. business or investment.
This refers, of course, to the United States but it could equally be applicable to this country.
If the U.S. is to avoid an even bigger land bust than in the '20's, concludes House & Home, cities and towns must act fast. Most experts agree that the first point of attack should be to ease the too-heavy tax burden on houses and other improvements, multiply the too-easy tax load on unimproved land, and make the unearned increment in land prices provide much more of the taxes needed to provide the streets, water, sewers and schools without which unimproved land would be neither livable nor saleable.
I hasten to add, of course, that according to the division of constitutional responsibility in this country as between the dominion and provincial governments this is a matter which lies within the exclusive jurisdiction and competence of the provinces, though it has been delegated in many cases to municipal corporations. However, when we consider the hundreds of millions of dollars which have been spent under our housing legislation since
[Mr. Baldwin.1
it was first placed on the statute books, we can only reach the conclusion that much of it has been, in fact, sterile.
Today one laudable purpose of this legislation is to further stimulate and expand the building trades and the plants which produce the material required for building houses. It is a matter of some concern that on the basis of present figures approximately 20 per cent of the moneys that will be expended will go toward the price of lots rather than being used for other more useful purposes. I realize that the minister is powerless to do anything about this in so far as this legislation is concerned, but I do suggest to the minister in furtherance of this very worth-while objective that he might consider the possibility at some time of extending regulations so that where it appears that the cost of the lots and the land on which these houses are to be erected constitutes a far larger percentage of the price than is proper those properties will not be eligible for benefits under this legislation. I merely throw out this thought and possibly it may be explored at a later date in conferences with municipal and provincial authorities.
I wish to offer one further constructive suggestion and indeed, this resolution is deserving of nothing but constructive suggestions. When the hon. member for Cariboo participated in this debate yesterday he referred to the great volume of construction which is likely to take place in his area. 1 have the honour to be the representative of the constituency which adjoins his on the Alberta side of the border. The benefits of legislation of the nature of that under discussion were not made available to these more remote areas as early as they were to other parts of the country. That has resulted in situations in previous years where in the larger metropolitan centres there were sometimes surpluses of houses which could not be disposed of readily whereas in parts of the country like that which I represent it proved almost impossible to keep abreast of the demand.
I am prompted to mention this because of the reference in the speech from the throne to the fact that a western route through my own part of the country is proposed for the construction of the railway to Great Slave lake. I can easily pinpoint approximately 18 or 20 towns or villages which will come into existence in this area. These places will urgently need the benefits of legislation of this kind. It might well be that in the future the minister, having regard to his responsibilities under the administration of the National Housing Act, in spite of the fact that some areas of the country are not in as great need for funds for house building, will



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deem it necessary to extend by regulation the benefits available under this legislation to districts such as mine which in the past have not received the same degree of attention that has been received by more central and metropolitan areas.
Mr. McCleave:: Mr. Chairman, I intend to intervene but briefly in the debate. There are a good number of items in the resolution concerning which one could offer congratulations and special thanks to the minister but I intend to limit myself to two developments that are of particular interest to the area I represent, an area which in some 20 years has more than doubled its population. I think that recent visitors to Halifax would have to agree that it is almost unrecognizable today compared with its previous condition which perhaps might have been characterized by some as a bleak city shrouded in its role of east coast Atlantic port.
For one thing, the Halifax-Dartmouth metropolitan area is one of the great centres of university learning in Canada. We have at least six universities there. All of them have expanded greatly in recent years. I do not intend at this time to enter into a debate on the perennial problem arising from the fact that Nova Scotia has more university students per capita than any other part of Canada but I do wish to say that we in Halifax will be in the forefront of those universities racing to be the first to take advantage of the amendment to the act which will soon be placed before us under which assistance will be made available for the construction of university residences. I think the University of King's College, the oldest English speaking institution of learning in Canada at the university level will achieve that honour or at least with some pardonable pride, I hope so, because recently that university gave me the honour of asking me to be a member of its board of governors. This decision will be taken, I assume, almost simultaneously with the passage by the House of Commons of those amendments to the legislation which will explain the benefits of long term low interest loans to the universities of this country.
King's College has been somewhat fettered by a lack of space and finances. Those associated with the university are ambitious as are all other Halifax universities. It is our proud hope very shortly to open the first Latin American institute in Canada and so provide to students from Central and South America facilities for university life in a Canadian city. It is our feeling that this can best be accomplished by having students from other countries pursue university life fully as can be done better by having them established in residences rather than simply
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scattered about in houses nearby. The realization of that dream would, I daresay, be virtually impossible without more residential space. King's College has room for less than 200 students in its present residence. The minister's proposal when accepted and adopted by us in parliament will mean a fine new building there. It will do more than alleviate the problem of providing residences for Canadian university students but will enable us in Halifax to bid a very warm welcome to students from the southern part of this hemisphere.
The other point I wish to make is that our area has been a rapidly expanding one. On January 1, we welcome yet another city to Canada. The town of Dartmouth will become a city more than double its previous size and almost double its previous population. It will meet numerous problems in relation to municipal services. Those portions of the minister's proposal concerning main and trunk sewerage, while they deal with a rather mundane thing, still give one cause to rejoice.
(Translation):


Mr. Bissonnetfe:: Mr. Chairman, I do not wish to let this opportunity slip by without telling the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Walker) how grateful I am to him for the significant resolution he submitted to the house, nor without mentioning the benefits this resolution holds in store for the Canadian people, and more particularly for those I represent in this house.
I represent an essentially industrial constituency. My constituents will therefore welcome this resolution with much joy and satisfaction as it will, first of all in the social field, give them the opportunity of solving the housing problem and further, of solving or allaying the unemployment problem.
I have been a practicing medical doctor for more than 38 years in the great riding of Quebec West, with as I just said an essentially working population composed of families who, as it was customary in those days, succeeded in becoming home owners on their small family earnings. At that time, there was no social legislation to assist them, but they nevertheless brought up large families, in housing accommodation that was often too small, and succeeded in living in relative comfort. I was living with them through that difficult period. With our present social legislation, and the expansion and development that have taken place in our society, the living standard of my fellow citizens has been increased and those people are now entitled, just like anybody else, to a better standard of living, not to mention the fact that the premises in which they lived at that time have now become inadequate and for a great many of them turned into slums.

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More than 22 years ago, the government in power at the time, with its pretention of having succeeded in all fields, used to send us back the same candidate every four years to solicit our votes; we saw him on those occasions but we would not see him again for four more years. Housing was never a problem, except in the last few years. So when my constituents did me the honour of choosing me as their representative in the nation's government, I immediately made it a point to meet the then minister of public works (Mr. Green) to inform him of housing conditions in my constituency. The minister was kind enough to look into the problem and try to improve our really deplorable housing situation. He therefore lent his support to the first instalment on a 500 unit low cost housing development, of which 160 houses were to be built in 1958. The houses were built in 1958 and were immediately occupied, because the rents were in line with the means of the working people, and then it was a matter of keeping up the good work.
On a number of occasions, I also tested the patience of the present Minister of Public Works, and I hope he will forgive me for perhaps taxing his patience to the limit at times. However, I had faith in him, and kept pressing until the day when, a month ago, the Minister of Public Works asked me to announce that he had authorized a $965,000 loan for the building of 102 houses, in this case single family units, for the welfare of workers in my constituency.
I therefore wish to thank the minister and his colleague for rendering a great service to the working class in allowing the promoters of this first 500 house development to build, in this case, 102 units on which, the work,
I have been promised, will start very shortly, as a means of fighting winter unemployment. The promoters of the project have promised me that the work will be starting within two weeks, to the satisfaction of all concerned. Again I thank the Minister of Public Works for authorizing this project.
I would not resume my seat without saying a few words about the advantages of this measure in connection with the accommodation of our university students and as far as I am concerned, more particularly those of Laval University, of Quebec, the oldest and one of the largest of this country, for its students face a housing problem.
I am sure that this measure will rank among the best ever put forward by a gov-

ernment, since it is one of the most human, not to say the most social one ever put forward in this country to encourage and help education, to alleviate the unemployment problem and to improve living conditions.
I therefore thank the Minister of Public Works and I am happy to express to him the gratitude of those who will benefit by this measure.
(Text):


Harold Edward Winch: Mr. Chairman, there are a few remarks I should like to make at this stage of the discussion. First of all, I wish to say that in my estimation the minister should be commended on the majority of the recommendations which he is putting forward at this time. I believe they are forward looking and will prove of great benefit, if not in the immediate future, at least in the long run in the Dominion of Canada.
I am not one of those who believes that because he is in opposition he should always criticize. I believe that the commendation which is due should be given. I do believe that advanced steps are being made in many ways according to the explanation that has been given by the minister as to the purport of this resolution and the legislation that is to follow.
However, there is one phase on which I should like to comment, and if I misunderstand it I hope the minister will correct me. My listening to the minister yesterday leads me to believe that now money will be available for housing in rural areas even though there is no sewerage system there. With that I completely agree. This means they will have to use septic tanks. However, if my understanding is correct no loans whatsoever may be made in urban areas unless they are connected to a trunk sewer. With that I do not agree. There are in Canada-I know there are in British Columbia and I know there are within a few miles of my own home in the city of Vancouver-large areas like the municipality of Burnaby with over 100,000 population, the Delta area, the Surrey area, the Coquitlam area, and so forth, which are heavily populated but which in large part have not as yet any trunk sewerage system.
I completely fail to understand why those areas under the proposed legislation should be denied the availability of loans because in particular localities in those areas there is not at the present time a sewerage system.
A septic tank is considered healthy in a rural area if it is properly installed. Why are

loans to be denied in a part of a municipality which as yet has not that type of sewerage disposal unit? From my knowledge of the lower mainland of British Columbia I can assure the minister that advantage would be taken of this proposed legislation almost immediately if he would give consideration to making what I think is the most required and necessary change.
I think the minister should also keep in mind the fact that under the building and health bylaws of cities like Vancouver and the adjoining municipalities the property owner, once a trunk sewer is installed, is given a year or two years to stop using a septic tank and have a connection made with the trunk sewer. I can speak with a great deal of knowledge of this matter because I happen to be a trustee of a large property right in the city of Vancouver which made use of a septic tank until 18 months ago. At that time a sewer system was installed on the street and as executive director of the trusteeship I was told that within 12 months we had to make a connection with the sewer.
I do not think the ultimate cost of tying into the sewer system when it is installed is going to stop anybody in Burnaby, Surrey, Delta, Coquitlam or Burquitlam, for example, from taking advantage of this legislation because at the most it would only amount to $75 or $100 one year, two years or five years from now to make the connection with the trunk sewer. Because I think this matter is of paramount importance I ask the minister to give immediate consideration to whether or not he will make that alteration in what I have already said I believe to be the most commendable proposals which he is making at this time.
There is only one other point I wish to discuss at this time. I should like to ask him to give consideration to an extension which on philosophic and logical grounds is perhaps not in tune with the views of his own party and those of private enterprise generally. I have in mind the federal government taking the initiative and entering into at least one phase of home construction. I would not make this proposal with respect to all home construction because I know I would be ramming my head against a free enterprise brick wall. However, I believe very conscientiously that there is one phase with respect to which the minister should give serious consideration to the federal government taking the initiative.
I refer to the construction of homes or apartments for senior citizens, veterans on low pensions and others in a similar category. I understand full well that, under the resolution as outlined by the minister, when the legislation is passed the federal government
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will be prepared-I think this is correct- to advance up to 95 per cent through Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation so that the remaining cost could be no greater than 5 per cent which should not be too much of a financial obligation or responsibility. If the federal government would take the initiative in this sphere I think it would be a very good thing.
I do not wish to negate in any way the advantages with respect to general home construction which the minister hopes will come about under the proposals he is making at this time. However, after leaving the United Nations and going home for a week before coming here I was told by a number of real estate men while I was home that they had a number of brand new homes which had never been occupied and which could be purchased by paying $100 down provided the person was able to make monthly payments of $125, $135 or $140 a month. Without knowing the exact figures, I do know there are a number of homes available in Vancouver now for $100 down if the buyer can carry the payments.
There is one very great lack, however, in the lower mainland of British Columbia particularly and I presume the same thing applies across Canada. There is a lack of homes and apartments for senior citizens and veterans with low income levels. I suggest to the minister that prompt consideration should be given to providing the extra 5 per cent and the federal government initiating the construction of homes for the senior citizens, veterans and pioneers of this country.
In making this proposal one must be honest and I hope I am being honest. I recognize that if such a policy were decided upon there would immediately be a demand all across Canada for the government to move into the field and in the initiation of such projects there must be co-operation on the provincial and municipal levels. I believe that this could be done if the federal government would take the initiative and put up the money.
In the first place, as far as the government is concerned it is a sound investment because the principal and the interest on the money will be returned. On what basis can it be done so it will not be done in a helter-skelter fashion all across Canada? I should like to remind the minister of my own experience, of which he knows, with respect to the New Vista housing project which was the first such project in British Columbia and Canada and is one of the largest. In that instance the municipality made the property available at a nominal sum of $1 so that these apartments and homes could be constructed. The

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municipality did so for two reasons. First of all, the project was socially desirable and, second, the agreement was that they would receive all the charges, all the taxes and so on, which they have received ever since. The project operates on a paying basis and provides wonderful homes and apartments at monthly rentals ranging from $21 to a maximum of $35.
I admit I have not thought the matter out in detail but I do know that if this were done it would give an immediate boost to the construction industry. I believe it can be done if some kind of understanding can be formulated that the government will enter into this type of construction and pay all the costs on the basis that the principal and interest will be returned and the municipalities to donate the land for a nominal sum. In this way the municipality concerned would be sharing effectively in the social responsibility. At the end of 30, 35 or 40 years the federal government would get all its money back plus interest and the property would then revert to the ownership of the municipality in repayment for the granting of the land for $1 or some other nominal sum.
I believe this is an idea which should be studied and that something can be worked out which will prove most beneficial in arriving at an early solution of one of the most critical needs of our country, low rental housing for senior citizens, veterans and others on low income. Over the long run there could be no loss to the federal government and no loss to the municipality. I put that forward as a suggestion and I hope it will be given consideration by the minister.


Mr. Murphy:: Mr. Chairman, I should like to make a few comments on this resolution. First of all, I wish to commend the minister and the government for the progressive ideas found in the resolution they have introduced at this particular time. Not only does the legislation afford relief to the housing industry but it will also be a very important factor in keeping employed many of our construction workers who depend on work in the housing industry for their livelihood.
Unfortunately, I was not in the house when a spokesman for the opposition last night, in referring to this resolution, said that some of the ideas were good and that they might well be good because they were suggested by the opposition. I think he will probably recall that over the years he and I on various occasions used similar arguments directed towards the government of which he was a supporter.
I think it must be a great satisfaction to those in the opposition, as well as to us and

to the people in the country, that this government so soon after being in office undertook a project of this sort to provide adequate housing as quickly as possible for the people of this country who deserved that sort of treatment for many years and did not get it under the previous administration. We were in opposition for many years. After the official opposition are there another 20 years I am sure they will realize that some of their arguments will no doubt bear fruit.
I might remind the hon. member that while we were in opposition we were always concerned about the interests of the municipalities. He probably will recall that on more than one occasion we urged relief by the government in some way in order that housing could be furnished, but to little avail. The record speaks for itself.
There may be in some municipalities across the country a situation in which they have housing of a sort and are probably not short of housing. I am happy to say that in my city of Sarnia-and I hope the statement applies to many others-we have only 40 new homes unsold. To me this fact is extremely important. It is also important that the government know about it, and I am sure they know through Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation. We are not overbuilt. We certainly welcome this new resolution for many reasons.
I am going to be frank and say this. I think the government could possibly have gone a little bit further. I should like to take this opportunity of commending the minister and the government for listening to the representations that have been earnestly made and I am just going to recite a couple. When the resolution was introduced concerning housing some months ago there was a limitation on earnings. There was also a limitation on the amount of the mortgage, of course. My objection at that time was that the limit on earnings was too low. In many places where we require housing the situation is as it is in Sarnia where the earnings are quite high because we have a chemical industry which employs many technicians, engineers and scientists; the earnings are beyond the average. Representation was made to the minister that the ceiling should be raised. My own opinion is that the ceiling could be eliminated, for all the effect it has, except in a physiological way, because probably there would be only 5 per cent of the whole total who would be affected by earnings over and above the present ceiling or even the former ceiling.
Then with respect to the regulation which came into effect later concerning the requirement for sewage services in order to obtain a

loan, representation was made to the minister that there were certain areas-and I referred to the area along lake Huron near Sarnia- where sewage disposal plants would be out of the question for many years. There is, you might say, only a ribbon there between the lake and the railroad where houses would be built. It would be an injustice to the property owners of that area-and a beautiful area it is-to require that they have a so-called sewage disposal system, and I am going to have something to say about that matter a little bit later. The result was that the government lifted the regulation or suspended it for some months in order to give people the opportunity to dispose their holdings.
These regulations, of course, naturally come overnight and without notice. The result of this change by the government afforded these people the opportunity to dispose of holdings. In some cases the holdings would have meant bankruptcy because they would not have been able to sell them in areas where there would never be sewage disposal plants for many years. I think the government is to be commended for its stand and for its objectivity in meeting the current situation. No other government that I have been able to learn about or read about has taken the initiative with such effect concerning a situation that required a remedy and done so in such a short time.
I welcome the increase in the amount of the loan and also the terms for repayment. I should like to say that I am primarily interested in the other feature of this resolution. In his opening remarks on this resolution- and this concerns pollution-the minister said that the Prime Minister has been vitally interested in this problem over the years. He has been vitally interested in it. Many of us who have been here in the house for the last 15 years or more recall arguments made by him and others concerning the pollution problem. In my opinion, and I think everyone will agree, this part of the resolution is going to have a greater impact on our people in Canada and on our life than is indicated on the surface of the bill because we are finally becoming pollution conscious. I think I am safe in saying that down in my area, because of our concern about oil drilling in the great lakes, we are more pollution conscious than tax conscious and certainly everybody in Canada is tax conscious. However, very few people realize the seriousness of pollution and what it can mean and has meant to this country and in fact to this world.
The municipalities are going to welcome the opportunity provided by this government to construct sewage disposal plants within their boundaries. We know that, unfortunately, many of the municipalities in this
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country dump their raw sewage into the nearest available area-and they are extremely fortunate if it happens to be a river or a lake-and that is the end of it so far as they are concerned. Under this proposed legislation the municipalities which otherwise could not have afforded a modern sewage disposal plant are now enabled to obtain one.
However, I am going to say this. Most of us have the idea that a sewage disposal plant takes care of sewage which comes out of our septic tanks and from our industrial waste.
I am here to state that it does not do so. We do not have in this country-and in most places the situation is the same, even in the United States-proper sewage treatment plants.
There should be sewage treatment plants, not just sewage disposal plants so that what goes out into the lake or river, as the case may be, is not injurious to anybody, even to a minor extent. These municipalities can join together and promote the financing facilities afforded them and obtain these most necessary projects. I hope the day hastens when this country at least will show some leadership, province by province, in having all the municipalities within their boundaries provided with proper sewage treatment plants.
Furthermore, it is going to provide a great deal of winter work, and that is in itself an important factor. I think it will be greatly appreciated, also, by municipalities that there is this refund aspect of this resolution. If the job is completed, we will say by May, 1963, a certain percentage-and a very healthy percentage-is refunded to the municipalities concerned. It will mean that these municipalities, having obtained the money at a much lower rate of interest, will accept this idea of the government, and I think you will see sewage disposal plants or sewage treatment plants built all across this country.
I want to say a word about the seriousness of pollution, because we take water for granted. Polluted water is a damaged resource and it cannot serve the purpose for which it was intended. It thus becomes a public expense. The changing conditions of recent years, particularly in the industrial field, have created new problems. And we must remember that the waste from these industrial fields goes through our sewage treatment or disposal plants-and they are very important.
We in Sarnia-I am speaking now of the industrial plants in that particular area- have done an outstanding and a challenging job in trying to curb pollution. The companies in the city of Sarnia have spent over $7 million of their own hard-earned money in the last seven or eight years to curb pollution

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from the air and from what goes into the river. I think everyone will agree that that is most commendable action.
I want to now commend the Ontario water resources commission, which has worked so diligently and persistently, because they have a terrific task before them to convince the people of any municipality that they must use their own dollars to protect their own health. They, together with the International Joint Commission, have done a terrific job for Canada, and they get very little thanks for it because they are asking people to spend their own money.
I tell the members of this committee that until the time comes when the people of this country realize that money amounts to very little if they do not have good health the problem of water pollution will be very serious. They must realize that they had better spend a little money to get rid of pollution and enjoy the life that has been allotted to them. As population rises and demands upon the nation's water supply grow, research scientists tell us these problems will multiply. The burden on water is increasing. I said in other language a minute ago-and I do not mind emphasizing it- that it is going to take a great deal of effort just to stay even with the problem, and more, if we are going to make any improvement.
People do not realize today, in our age of research and technology, that there are over 500,000 distinct chemical compounds in use in industrial production today, while some 30 years ago there were only a few hundred. These products go through our sewage disposal plants. We know that this is so, because most of us have read a good deal about pollution and about the problem that scientists and research workers have to contend with.
In addition to the numbers which have been in use, there are over 10,000 new compounds being developed in laboratories each year. The quantity of the water in the world remains constant, and it must be used over and over again. Our method of dumping sewage into our water is not only unsavory, but unsafe. It is all the more necessary, therefore, that the people of this country realize what pollution means. It is too bad that we did not have this many, many years ago; but I doubt if people would have accepted it.
Mr. Chairman, my next remarks concern the people of Ontario. Each beach from Toronto to Hamilton-playground for two million people-has been placarded at times during these past two years with "No swimming" signs. It is about time we had some

pollution control. Two years ago the growth of algae was so rank along lake Ontario that the medical officer of Halton said, "The smell brings on nausea and lack of appetite". Some people might gloss over that statement, but I think it is a very serious one.
In addition to the water pollution we have from our sewage, there is, of course, the question of oil, which is of great concern to me, so far as oil drilling in the great lakes is concerned. I think the minister knows about that very well. Hamilton bay and lake Erie are two of the world's largest and most beautiful septic tanks. Sewage and water plants are two of the most neglected public works programs today, and I am certainly one of millions of people in this country who welcome the efforts and the program of this government to eliminate that problem to a great extent. It cannot be done overnight.
We are closing the beaches this year on the St. Lawrence, in the Cornwall area, because polluted waters are endangering health. A cursory survey was made last year, and Chicago and Erie, Pennsylvania-and they are on the great lakes system-are the only two large cities enjoying the water, and those two cities have spent millions and millions of dollars for that privilege. Milwaukee was forced to close its public beaches an August 7 because of lake Michigan's polluted water. Cleveland admits a losing fight to keep its beaches, and health officials flatly discourage any bathing in lake Erie. Ninety per cent of the people of Ontario live within 50 miles of one of the great lakes, and here, because we have had no government in the past which has assisted the municipalities in overcoming this problem, we are today faced with just what I have been reciting to you-and it is a shame.
The city of Ottawa, the capital of Canada, dumps its sewage into the Ottawa river. What do they do along the St. Lawrence, at Montreal and the rest of the cities? I think a debate on this subject is going to enlighten a few people as to the problem they are facing, and they are going to face a great many more.
Unfortunately, for more than 40 years-and we all know this-fundamentally no new sewage treatment process has been developed.
I think it is about time that our governments, research workers and scientists worked on this problem. Just because it has not been done elsewhere is no reason for us not doing it now.
In the province of Ontario we do have the Ontario water resources commission, which has several water projects and several sewage disposal projects in being. They are very persistent, and thank goodness they are. They are trying to educate the people of Ontario to the fact that we cannot waste the resource

which is commonly known as water. Without water we do not get very far. Water is the most important resource there is in this world, and there are many places in this world that would give anything to be living on a drainage basin of 298,000 square miles, such as there is in the great lakes, with its water area of
90,000	square miles.
Industry cannot live without pure water nor can our economy sustain itself without industry. That is how serious the position is. This is a problem of great magnitude and it must be controlled in order to safeguard the water resources of this country which should be regarded as the foremost economic factor in our national welfare.
The minister and the government are to be commended for their 1960 approach to a 1900 or 1850 problem. The senior government has now given a lead in this program for pollution control through its assistance to the municipalities. It is going to be appreciated. I think the municipalities will consider this resolution to be so much to their benefit that there will be very few who can afford not to come into it. It is timely and I think, also, it will be supported not only by the municipalities throughout the country but by industry and by the people of Canada generally, because water is more important to the people of this country than any other natural resource we have. There will be public support for this measure as well as private support. The financing program set out by the federal government is one which should commend itself not only to every member of this house but to all the people of Canada. I say to the minister and to the government: you have done an excellent job.


Mr. Broome:: I was very interested in the speech which has just been made by the hon. member for Lambton West, because this question of pollution is certainly of interest to my city, the city of Vancouver, and the provisions in this resolution which will aid in the control of pollution are of tremendous interest to me.
Our beaches are in the same mess as the hon. member for Lambton West said the beaches along lake Ontario are, but in addition we have a major fishing industry, and pollution presents an imminent danger to our runs of salmon. The city of Vancouver and the adjoining municipalities, because this is a metropolitan matter, have spent tens of thousands of dollars in the promotion and development of an engineering scheme in connection with a central sewage disposal plant. Up to now I have considered it unfortunate that the scheme has not been started but now I consider it fortunate, because the city of Vancouver and the adjacent municipalities can now take advantage of this
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present measure. We shall get our sewage disposal plant and we shall have a very healthy contribution from the federal government in the form of a 25 per cent rebate of those moneys expended prior to May, 1963. As I understand the resolution, the federal government will be lending up to two thirds the cost of the project. This is a matter in connection with which we on the west coast should move very rapidly.
I was also interested in the remarks of the hon. member for Vancouver East. I myself have always taken a deep concern in the problems of our senior citizens. Because of our milder climate we perhaps have a larger percentage of senior citizens than any other region of Canada; they come to the west coast because they want in the last years of their lives to enjoy the benefits of an area which has more to offer than any other part of Canada. However, I should like to call the attention of the hon. member for Vancouver East to the minister's statement as reported on page 92 of Hansard for November 22 in which the hon. gentleman outlines how section 36 of the act would be modified so that the federal government, working directly with the municipalities and not through any intermediary body such as a provincial government, would pay 75 per cent of the cost of rehabilitating existing housing. However-and I quote the minister's actual words:
-this only in urban renewal areas designated by agreement among participating governments. In other words, it will be a corollary to the federal-provincial plans at the present time for subsidized housing.
Shortly before making that statement the minister said:
As I have reiterated many times, we are interested primarily in the little man. If we can provide for him adequate accommodation at lower cost than new housing, so much the better.
I should like the hon. member to take particular note of that phrase "at lower cost than new housing, so much the better." The practice, as was pointed out, was for municipalities to let areas get into a blighted condition to the point where it was necessary to raze the existing buildings completely and then to start building new dwellings under the provisions of the present section 36, because there is no provision in the act for federal assistance in the rehabilitation of existing buildings. This has now been changed.
Land and land assembly is a major problem and represents a major cost in any subsidized housing project. The centres of cities are usually almost 100 per cent built up, so it is necessary to go to outlying areas in order to find land available for subsidized land development, whether it is to be apartment

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houses, row housing or some other form of development. But the senior citizens as a rule do not want to live on the outskirts of the city. They do not like to leave the areas where they have lived for a great part of their lives. They like to be close to the shopping centres; they like to be close to activity; they like to be near the central areas of the town.
The provision in the resolution now before us will allow for the reformation of areas which are on the downgrade but which under the previous regulations would have had to become absolute slums before action could be taken. Under the proposed regulations action can be taken to stop this cancer which spreads out and eats away at the very vitals of our cities. In co-operation with the municipalities, new housing, subsidized housing, low rental housing will be available for those people who need it.
I think this is the answer to the eloquent plea made by the hon. member for Vancouver East. I agree with him that this is a problem and that it must be attacked, but I say to him that it is being attacked now in the most reasonable and logical manner.
This resolution is almost a complete speech from the throne in itself. I do not know how it can ever be accomplished within the scope of a single bill. It seems to me that several bills will be necessary because there are really six items covered in the resolution. There is the change in the loan ratio; there is the extension of the period of repayment under the National Housing Act. I believe that these changes will make it much easier to raise the money necessary to build a house. The minister announced yesterday that the ratio of loan is changed from 90 per cent of the first $12,000 of lending value to 95 per cent of the first $12,000 of lending value; that the 70 per cent of the remainder continues as it was; and that the period of repayment has been extended from 30 to 35 years.
One major result of this will be to meet a complaint we have often heard in this chamber concerning what steps can be taken to stop the fantastic charges involved in house building when you consider what is paid for a second mortgage not only in terms of interest but in terms of the discount on the value of the money you are supposed to receive. You may require $3,000 and you may receive $2,000 and you pay 10 per cent on the $3,000, and things of that nature. I know scores of young people who have stretched their credit to the limit to get together all the money they could but a first mortgage was not sufficient and they had to get the balance through a second mortgage. These second mortgages are in many cases examples of usury of the worst

character. The hon. member for Nipissing held forth on this subject in his remarks.
This change as I see it will put an end to second mortgages on houses built under N.H.A. There will be no need for second mortgages because the changes in the lending ratio and in the period of repayment will bring the provisions of the legislation within the reach of practically everybody who is genuinely in the position to take on the responsibility of building a home.
The taller hon. member for Halifax during the course of his remarks expressed the thought that King's College may be the first university in Canada to take advantage of the provisions under which aid will be made available for the construction of student residences. I was talking to the president of the University of British Columbia, Dr. Norman MacKenzie, at noon today. I believe that King's College will have to move very quickly if it wishes to get ahead of the University of British Columbia in taking action in this regard. Dr. MacKenzie believes that this assistance will be of great value to his university. I know of the need for new residences at that university which has seen a fantastic growth in enrolment during the last eight years as has been the case with almost every university in Canada.
This aid is a major point in this resolution and one for which the government will receive commendation from every side of the committee. I do not wish to take any more time. There are six items dealt with in the resolution and I have touched upon only two. This resolution will give to the Canadian economy an even greater fillip than the resolution debated yesterday with respect to loans to small business. This resolution will extend the operations of C.M.H.C. into almost every area of construction and will result in a greatly expanded program of work. One important consideration is the application of this assistance to rental housing which I believe the minister said would bring approximately 1,500,000 homes under the banner of C.M.H.C.
In conclusion I join with the hon. member for Lambton West in saying that the minister and the government have done a good job. This resolution is certainly one of the best I have seen for many a day.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, I am not rising to repeat what was said so well by my friend the hon. member for Nipissing last night, but now that the government has had 18 of its supporters rise in their places to congratulate the minister and to say how strongly they support this resolution, I wonder if the supporters of the government would

consider co-operating with the official opposition in getting this resolution through so that the government could bring down this bill and we could see what is really in it.


Mr. Nielsen:: Mr. Chairman, like the hon. member who has just taken his seat I am very anxious to see the bill brought down but it may very well be that I will not have an opportunity again to speak to the resolution before us or to the bill when it is brought before the house so I therefore now wish to avail myself of this opportunity of speaking because we have extremely urgent and pressing housing problems in the Yukon. I thought if I brought a few statements to the minister's attention he might be able to consider them in relation to extensions of the legislation which will be brought before us and in relation to other facets of the administration of C.M.H.C.
Our particular problem in the north generally and in the Yukon specifically is brought about by the substantially higher costs of construction there. It costs roughly 30 per cent to 40 per cent more to conduct any construction projects in the Yukon than it does in areas to the south. A home that could be built for $10,000 in Calgary or Toronto would cost $14,000 or more in the Yukon. A home costing $18,000 in the southern part of Canada would cost more than $24,000. It can be readily appreciated, therefore, that the maximum loan offered under C.M.H.C. is not sufficient to make it possible for the lower income groups there to take full advantage of the provisions of the N.H.A.
The remarks of the minister in introducing this resolution offer some hope that the situation in this respect will be in large part remedied because the changing of the ratio of the loan now available to applicants will result in a much lower down payment for those who wish to build under N.H.A. but it will still not close the large gap that exists in the Yukon when comparisons are made with building costs in other areas.
For instance, in the minister's remarks on November 22, as reported at page 91 of Hansard of that date, he indicated that the down payment for a house on which the lending value would be $14,000 will be reduced by $600. That does not reduce the down payment sufficiently to adequately enable the Yukon citizen to take advantage of N.H.A. building although it will certainly go a long way toward assisting.
I have noticed in the last two years, in Whitehorse particularly, that there has been a substantial advance in building programs mainly because of the changes introduced when the last amendments were made to the N.H.A. which increased the maximum loan
90205-6-9i
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available. This resulted in an increased number of new houses being constructed. Previously, three or four years ago, there had only been two units constructed in the whole of the Yukon under this program. This indicates the inadequacy of the N.H.A. to operate in the northern area. We think it is just as important in the north to make advances in terms of human resources as it is in terms of the development of our natural resources including minerals and the like in relation to which great strides have been taken in recent years.
A great deal of the housing in the Yukon is below acceptable health and social requirements. In large part, as I have said, this is owing to the very high cost of construction in the Yukon. Added to this fact is the additional factor that many people do not have the advantage of steady year around employment which would enable them to accumulate the capital required for the improvement of a house or the construction of a new one. Assistance at various levels of government is required if the urgent housing needs in the Yukon are to be met.
During the early years of the construction of the Alaska highway and of the Canol project the federal government was in large part responsible for the situation which we find in Whitehorse, where there are a series of very low standard and substandard houses in which people are living today. I say that because the advent of the Alaska highway and the Canol project resulted in an increase almost overnight of 800 to 1,000 per cent in that city's population. There was no adequate development or administration of lands. This condition was aggravated over the years by the complete lack of any intelligent administration in the way of acquiring land upon which individuals could construct houses. Not only did the federal government create the situation we now have and have had for years, namely one of those blights of which the minister spoke in his remarks in introducing the legislation yesterday, but we have a situation which has been consistently aided and abetted in its worsening of the conditions in the city. Today we have some 273 squatters within the municipal boundary of the city of Whitehorse unlawfully occupying crown and other lands. Within a radius of five to 10 miles of the city of Whitehorse there are some 550 of such unlawful occupiers of crown lands. This situation must be cured, and much assistance must be obtained from the federal government in curing it because they created it. I am speaking of the years from 1942 to about 1952. They were responsible for the creation of this very undesirable state of affairs.

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As I say, in the last two years extremely rapid strides have been made in home construction in the Yukon, due directly to the availability on a more equitable scale to the Yukon citizen of loans under the National Housing Act. These proposed changes in the National Housing Act are going to make a very great difference to house building in the Yukon. I believe that when they are combined with additional federal aid they may very well close the gap which exists between the Yukon citizen and other Canadians in the equitable application of the National Housing Act.
There are four methods by which the federal government can assist, in addition to those proposals which were set forth by the minister in introducing the resolution. The first one is to set up a fund creating what I will call a second mortgage fund. This is required because the proposals introduced by the minister, while they are indeed far-reaching, will still not enable the lower income earning group to build their own houses. The establishment of a second mortgage fund in the Yukon, to be administered, I suggest, by Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation, would greatly assist in closing the gap.
Second, I feel that a method by which the federal government could assist in the field of home improvement would be the establishment of a revolving fund of some $400,000 to $500,000 from which loans could be drawn to a maximum of $3,000, depending on the appraised value of the house that is to be improved, thus enabling existing house owners to improve their houses, and even to assist them in the purchase of a lot on which either to construct a new house or to move their existing house. Such a fund could also be used for the installation of sewer and water facilities both in the home and to hook up to existing facilities.
A third way in which the federal government could assist in alleviating this problem, which I say they created over the years, is to assist the communities and municipal governments in the Yukon to purchase lands, which would then be subdivided and serviced with water and sewer facilities and thus alleviate a very pressing squatter situation which is developing day by day.
The last proposal which I have to offer in the way of assisting the housing problem we face in the Yukon is the establishment of a low rental housing project certainly in the city of Whitehorse and in any other municipality or community in the Yukon which displays a need for it.
I am sure these four factors will cure-at least they will go a long way toward curing -that situation which, as I have said, was

assisted in its creation almost wholly by the federal government's maladministration during the war years, 1940 to 1945, and which has been abetted by the cumbersome and completely unworkable system of purchase of territorial lands since that time.
I should not close my remarks without saying that two years ago we were looking forward to National Housing Act building and applications were being approved. Some houses were being constructed and some speculative building was under way when last year the income restrictions were placed on loans available through the National Housing Act, and speculative loans were discontinued. There were one or two other features which, as far as we in the north were concerned, were extremely undesirable. Almost at once housing development ceased. I am happy to say that after I made representations to the minister early last spring -I just forget when I did so-those income restrictions were removed in so far as all the Canadian territory north of the 60th parallel was concerned. Immediately after this was done house building in the Whitehorse area pressed right ahead. As a result of the removal of those income restrictions I can point to some 25 new units built last summer. If this had not been done our housing progress would have come to a complete standstill.
This is the first opportunity that I have had to thank the minister for making this provision for the development of the human resources of the north. I am very pleased to say that in October last year the income restrictions were removed throughout the whole of Canada. This pointed up a certain faith in the north in so far as the development of the human resources of which I have been speaking is concerned.
I might say that when the hon. member for Vancouver East was speaking I was rather concerned about what I now believe to be a misinterpretation of the minister's remarks on the availability of funds for the development of services for urban communities. As I read the minister's remarks in Hansard of November 22, it would appear that these changes will allow urban redevelopment including the application of these funds toward the installation of sewer and water facilities. This will go a long way to assist us in our unorganized areas in the Yukon and particularly in our urban areas.
Another very valuable feature of the changes which I anticipate will come about concerns those who are employed in the civil service of Canada and are attached to the territorial civil service of the Yukon. Until a

couple of years ago the policy of the government, and it was a necessary one, was to create an attraction in the north to assist the government in their recruitment program so that they could obtain the necessary qualified personnel to take posts in the north. In order to do this one of the inducements was the provision of government owned housing which was constructed at government expense and then rented to the civil servants. As a result of the changes, some civil servants were building their own homes in the north last year and there are now six who are building in the new sub-division of Whitehorse. The expansions of the National Housing Act now being made are going to increase that number because by and large civil servants do not want to be occupying rented government homes. They want to own their own homes and if they can be put in a position to do so they want to be able to build them. Civil servants elsewhere in Canada do so and those in our northern areas want the same independence.
I am not suggesting that Whitehorse compares at all with places like Alert and Frobisher or other more isolated postings in Canada's north but in areas such as Whitehorse where there is other private housing there is no reason why civil servants should not be able to fulfil their desire to build their own homes in the same way as anyone else can.
I am very interested in seeing the application of that aspect of the legislation which has to do with the assistance which will be given toward creating new university accommodation. As most hon. members know, in the Yukon we have no university and all our students who leave high school and wish to take university training must go to the southern centres. Until now most of them have gone either to the University of British Columbia or the University of Alberta. Certainly there has been no adequate accommodation at the University of British Columbia to take care of young people who wish to go there to continue their studies. I am sure the new provision will improve the situation.
In completing my remarks may I refer to the four suggestions with respect to additional assistance to the Yukon which I have put before the minister, namely, a second mortgage fund, a revolving fund for home builders and home improvement loans, assistance in the way of purchasing land for subdivisions and servicing it with sewer and water facilities because our municipalities are not rich enough to pay for these things, and the establishment of a low rental project in any area that needs it, particularly in
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Whitehorse where the need is very urgent. All of these proposals have received assent in principle from the city of Whitehorse and were endorsed in the form of a resolution passed five or six days ago by the Yukon legislative council which is now in session.


Hazen Robert Argue: Mr. Chairman, my remarks this afternoon will be brief. In the main I should like to find out from the minister, if I can, just how many jobs the government feels can be provided as a result of the suggested amendments to the National Housing Act. As I see it, the government is taking a very conservative attitude in these amendments and in its general approach. While the minister was in a position in July of this year to forecast some 125,000 housing starts or more, that forecast has now been scaled down to 110,000. In all of the government's actions in the housing field I think there is great evidence that the government has not only misjudged the general employment situation in Canada but has in fact misjudged the number of housing starts and the part that home construction would play in providing employment in Canada.
We have been in session for a few days now. We are now considering the government's second measure to deal with the unemployment emergency. The first had to do, of course, with loans for small business, and the measure before us now has to do with certain amendments to the National Housing Act which are laudable and are being supported by all members of the house. I am wondering whether the Minister of Public Works can give the house some assurance that this is not just a fleabite, that this is really going to mean the provision of many thousands of new jobs in Canada. In my view that is what the people of the country are looking to parliament for now, action to solve the whole problem of unemployment.


An hon. Member:: That is what we are doing.


Hazen Robert Argue: I am trying to find out from the minister just how much you are doing. I am all in favour of what is being done but I think the people of Canada will not be satisfied at all if parliament takes action that merely nibbles at the problem and that even with the action that is being taken in this and other fields unemployment will continue to become worse and worse in the months that lie ahead. Therefore, before the resolution is passed I am asking the minister to be good enough to tell the committee how many additional jobs the government feels will be provided by the measure that is now before us.

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The Minister of Public Works has offered opinions on other occasions as to how many jobs were provided by other measures that were taken. I have in my hand the newsletter for November-December, 1960, issued by the department of economic development of the Canadian Chamber of Commerce, and on page 2 I find the following statement:
Several correspondents have taken exception to the statement made by the Hon. David1 J. Walker, Q.C., Minister of Public Works, in a speech in Toronto on September 12 and quoted in the October issue of the newsletter. Mr. Walker referred to the Mackenzie federal building in Toronto erected at a cost of $11 million "and provided 1,300 on-the-site jobs for workers in the building trades which lasted on an average of four months". Mr. Walker went on to say, "What an expensive way to solve unemployment! Dividing 1,300 jobs into $11 million we have $9,000 being required to provide one man with work for four months; $27,000 to provide one man with on-the-site work for one year."
And so on. I think there are more jobs involved in this expenditure than the minister would appear to indicate by his statement. However, if in the view of the minister a construction project takes such a huge sum of money to provide a few jobs, it would be extremely interesting to learn from him how many additional jobs may be provided by the worth-while amendments that have been placed before the house.
From what the government is doing, my impression is that this is the kind of thing a government would do normally, in an ordinary year in order to meet the housing needs of the Canadian people and that it is not really an all-embracing, emergency action to deal with an emergency situation. I think housing could provide a large number of jobs across this country, but if this is to be done there must be a massive attack on slum conditions in Canada.
I do not care what large city an hon. member may go into, my own experience has been that one can find block after block of buildings in which people live but which are a disgrace to Canada and should be torn down and replaced by proper and adequate buildings. If there were a serious attack on slum conditions all across this country I think the government would then be mounting a program that would have a substantial effect on the numbers of unemployed in this country. From any evidence I have seen thus far I cannot believe that the government can seriously expect that this measure and others that have been announced are in fact going to deal effectively with the extremely grave unemployment situation in Canada at this time. However, I am sure the members of

the committee would be grateful to the minister if he could give them some indication of what the government expects to accomplish with this program.
(Translation):


Mr. Campeau:: Mr. Chairman, at the risk of displeasing my colleague, the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate (Mr. Pickersgill), I, as a town planner, would hate to let the opportunity slip by of commending the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Walker) for the resolution he has submitted to the consideration of this committee for the purpose of bringing about several changes to the National Housing Act.
For once, Mr. Chairman, we have before us a bill the aim of which is to bring about an integrated and efficient solution to the problem of housing and urban renewal throughout this country. These new measures round off those which were introduced last session, by the Minister of Public Works, and all these measures, taken together, fully show the understanding he has of the housing and accommodation problem.
As the member for St. James, I shall speak on behalf of the citizens of that riding and, whether my colleague the hon. member for Quebec West (Mr. Bissonnette) likes it or not, I maintain that my constituency is more urban and even more of a workmen's riding than his own, as it is situated in the very heart of the Canadian metropolis. So, on behalf of the voters of the riding of St. James, I want to thank the Minister of Public Works for taking the opportunity of bringing about a more efficient solution than ever to the still acute housing problem for the small wage earner, at a time when the fight against unemployment made it possible.
I would not want, Mr. Chairman, to reiterate comments which have been made before on the proposed legislation, as provided in the resolution. I shall just give a brief summary. On the whole, the proposed provisions are the following: extension of the loan repayment period; increase in the ratio of the loans to the lending value rather than the building value; increase in the credit available for urban redevelopment, extension of the credit available for improvements to existing units-and I am sure that the minister said in his comments that it would comprise apartment houses; possibility of buying and using existing units in urban redevelopment areas, under a joint municipal-federal plan; possibility also of building students' residences under the limited dividend company system; and finally, a proposed solution to the sewer, sewage disposal and water pollution problem.

There is no doubt that all these measures will meet problems which are very urgent problems throughout Canada at this time. There is, first of all, the matter of helping families with a small revenue to become home owners.
The proposed provisions will help solve that problem by increasing the value of loans, decreasing the down payment, doing away with the necessity of obtaining an extremely costly second mortgage, and finally by lowering the monthly payment on the principal and interest through an extension of the loan period to 30 and 35 years.
We are dealing today with a major problem, that of making it possible for low income families to become house owners. Another problem which low income families have to face is that of renting housing units built by private industry at a cost beyond their means, although their income is too high for them to be acceptable in subsidized housing projects. The legislation now under consideration will make it possible to provide housing accommodation to those low income groups.
There is one particularly important factor here, Mr. Chairman. From the viewpoint of city planning, this is the first time that any project is put forth to help, in an absolutely efficient and practical way, to promote a municipal conservation scheme. In fact, this resolution mentions increased credit for repairs or improvements to existing houses. It will also enable municipalities to join with the federal government to purchase, improve and use existing houses for subsidized rental purposes in areas subject to urban redevelopment.
An often recurring problem is this. In certain deteriorating areas complete clearing is not allowed. This legislation however, will make it possible to clear out certain areas and open them to redevelopment. Another recurring problem is that in slum clearing you have to relocate the people living in those slums. Most of the time in our larger cities, we have to face the fact that such development is not easy and the problem then is a very complicated one.
Thanks to the proposed legislation housing units will be provided for people who are brought out of the slums. Finally, the additional amounts granted for urban redevelopment will undoubtedly speed up adequate programs throughout our cities, and it must not be overlooked that deterioration is apparent today not only in the larger cities but more and more in several smaller cities as well. I am thinking of several localities such as Anjou, St. Jean and others in
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the province of Quebec, near Montreal, where a redevelopment scheme is needed to modernize certain districts which were built several generations ago and are no longer adequate.
This resolution also contains a number of provisions for improved conditions in housing developments, namely the construction of low cost housing or small houses, by promoting sewer system installation and especially sewage disposal plants. This legislation will considerably help municipalities solve a problem which is found throughout Canada, that is the pollution of rivers. This legislation will be a great step forward, Mr. Chairman. It will greatly help not only in larger municipalities, but smaller ones also.
May I take this opportunity to thank the Minister of Public Works for his assistance to the city of Montreal through a recent grant of over $100,000 to be used for surveys on slum clearing and urban redevelopment possibilities. One of those surveys is more particularly concerned with slum clearing in an eastern section of the city which is located partly in the constituency of St. James and partly in that of St. Mary. It will affect about 800 families. The effect of such relocation studies will be to provide modern and sanitary homes for over 1,000 families. There is no doubt that the problem arises in many forms across Canada. Such studies will help enhance human values, as well as real estate values and will lead to a better conservation of capital invested in housing throughout Canada.
Such urban redevelopment schemes will make it possible to carry out important projects which otherwise could not have been tackled. A case in point is the slum clearance scheme in eastern Montreal, which will enable the C.B.C. to relocate its facilities in Montreal and build an integrated centre for French language radio and television broadcast, serving all of Canada. I would point out also that such programs can help small municipalities and suburbs, especially with regard to sewage disposal, and will increase the number of integrated housing development.
Before closing my remarks, Mr. Chairman, I should like to make two suggestions to the Minister of Public Works, the first having to do with the co-operative movement. I hope it will be possible under the regulations to be passed for the administration of the proposed act, to give maximum consideration to the co-operative movement. Housing cooperatives may have left some doubts in

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the past as to what they could accomplish, but I think in the last tew years, events have shown that housing co-operatives were able to do worth-while things for relatively low income families, through the savings effected by mass purchasing of materials, and also with respect to labour and to the financing of short and long term loans. One case I should like to mention here is that of a housing co-operative company in Montreal, which was set up to acquire, from the city of Montreal, a rather substantial piece of land in the northern section, upon which it will build houses that may be purchased by families with low incomes. Perhaps I should point out that the city of Montreal contributed a rather considerable amount to this scheme by selling the land to the co-operatives at a quarter of its true value. The bill now under consideration may help such developments, thus enabling some 1,000 families to live in first rate social conditions.
Mr. Chairman, I have a second suggestion, in connection with town planning. I hope that in administering the act, the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation will continue and indeed place greater emphasis on a commendable practice it has been following in the past. I refer to the practice, in new urban developments and in redevelopment schemes, of using the services of professional town planners wherever possible, as a means of guaranteeing first rate housing developments to our people.
In concluding, Mr. Chairman, I should like to quote a statement made by the Right Hon. Mr. St. Laurent, as reported in La Patrie for November 16, 1948:
We need all the houses that it Is humanly possible to build.
I am proud that this truth is being given effect by a Conservative government.
(Text):


Mr. Smith (Lincoln):: Mr. Chairman, I do not intend to take up too much time at this stage of the committee's proceedings, as it is so near the adjournment hour, but I wish to express my appreciation and support of the minister for bringing in this very important resolution.
Having served for a number of years on a municipal council I realize the importance of the present resolution to all municipalities, because it deals with housing, sewage disposal, urban renewal, and a number of other matters. I do not intend to speak on matters

that have been dealt with before, but there are one or two points that I should like to bring to the attention of the minister.
One point is in connection with the building of residences for university students. In the resolution there is provision for the building of housing accommodation for university students. I should like to bring to the attention of the minister the need for residences for student nurses, graduate nurses, technicians who work in hospitals, also interning doctors.
Those who have been associated with hospital boards will realize the problem there is in finding money to erect these buildings. I would like the minister to take that matter into consideration, because in cities which have hospitals it is a very important matter and I think it is well worthy of consideration.
There is another matter in connection with sewage disposal. I think it is a very forward and a very important step that the government is taking at this time in dealing with the problem of pollution. In our part of Ontario we are very familiar with all the problems of pollution. All our beaches along lake Ontario, our rivers and canals are more or less polluted, and the municipalities have been waiting for some time for legislation of this kind to be brought forward so that they will be able to obtain the money to proceed with this work. I am glad that the Department of Public Works has taken this matter into consideration, and I hope they will make a good job of it, because in many cities and towns today they claim they have sewage disposal but they only have a very partial treatment.
In the province of Ontario-in fact, in all Canada-there should be complete sewage treatment. That means that storm sewers will have to be built and the storm water will have to be separated from the sanitary sewer. I also hope that the minister will take storm sewers into consideration when he considers the advancing of money for the building of sewers, because storm sewers are just about as important as sanitary sewers.
There is another matter that I should like to bring to the attention of the minister, and that is in connection with the Ontario water resources commission. For the past two or three years the Ontario water resources commission has more or less taken over the building of sewage treatment plants in many municipalities. They find the money and build

the plants, and then they more or less rent them to the municipalities. I would be very interested to know how this new legislation would fit into a scheme of that kind, because I think it is very important that the municipalities should be in a position to obtain this rebate if they complete the work within the next two or three years, even though they do it through the Ontario water resources commission.
I have given the minister the three points which I would like him to study. These are, the matter of housing accommodation for student nurses and other hospital personnel, the matter of the Ontario water resources commission, and the matter of storm sewers, which is very important to the municipalities.


Some hon. Members:: Question.


Mr. More:: Mr. Chairman, I rise to exercise my right to speak at this time, with no apology to any hon. members who have suggested that we get on with passing the resolution. I do not claim to be an expert in many of the matters referred to here, but in general terms I do have something to say. When the bill comes down and portions of the bill are carefully examined I will then be content to leave it to the experts to see what position they are going to adopt. I am not going to quarrel with anybody here about the parentage of this child. That matters little to me, because I think this is a bonnie, bouncing child which will be welcomed in any family and certainly by the family of Canadian citizens as a whole.
I am sorry the hon. member for Nipissing is not in his seat. He is a member of the opposition who, I think, from my observation here has generally contributed in a serious manner to the deliberations of this house and I was very sorry that his contribution to this discussion was a cynical "I told you so" contribution which at this time amounts to no contribution at all. If he says that this measure only follows the suggestions his party made in 1958, and comes too late, I say to him, without admitting that the measure is based on those suggestions, that perhaps his suggestions came 20 years too late.
For once I am able to turn to my friends in the corner over there and say that I was pleased by their contribution at this time to the debate. I do not agree with everything they said, but certainly they have taken a responsible position. They have not claimed parentage of this child. They have indicated they wish to be helpful and that they are in favour of a measure which, though it may not do the whole job, should certainly stimulate every portion of the Canadian economy in conjunction with the efforts of the provinces and the municipalities. I do 90205-6-10
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not think for one minute that if we sat here and worked day and night for a year the actions of the government alone could bring about the conditions to which we are looking forward. I think the figure of 15 per cent mentioned as the maximum that government action, regardless of what it may be, contributes is a very realistic figure and one which we should ponder well.
If the package referred to by the Leader of the Opposition contained nothing else, it seems to me that this measure would be sufficient to justify our being brought together here at this time. It covers four items-perhaps six items as I heard one of the speakers mention-and there is not one of these items whose passage anybody could deny. Every one of these measures, without regard to political affiliations, is a measure which seems to me to be based on the responsibility of government to step in where gaps occur in order to stimulate the attainment of a desired end, if not to do the whole job. I certainly wish to congratulate the minister and the government, for, of course, without the consent of his confreres the measure would not be before us today. It seems to me they have paid great regard to the many representations which have been made to them over the past few months-representations many of which have passed over the desks of every member of this house, all of which have had to be investigated and assessed in order to decide whether they were worth while or not.
One or two questions occurred to me, and in this respect I may be naive and out of order but I wish to bring them to the attention of the minister for consideration and to let the committee know that I have brought them to his attention. Perhaps one cannot deny the truism that the ownership of a house by every Canadian is worth while, but it seems to me there are areas of our economy in which house ownership is just not possible on any basis. House ownership seems to me to bring with it immobility, and a completely static labour force would not be beneficial to the country. There is an element of our economy where there has to be mobility and usually the people concerned earn the lowest wages. Yet their aspirations, desires and entitlement to adequate housing are as great and as proper as those of anyone else. It is in this field that I think there is a job to be done.
I have heard people talk about interest rates but in my opinion the interest rate has had very little to do with the acquisition of houses. Young people starting out do not care if they have to pay for 30 years as long as the payments are within their means. That has been my experience after talking to young

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people and to my own family. I am old enough to have a married daughter and two grandchildren.
But in this field where there has to be a mobile labour force it seems to me there is a problem which the government should take seriously. As things stand now, industry is attracted to areas where there are large labour pools, and it is in these areas that the houses we are building are concentrated, with the result that the labour pools are growing up in small areas over our large country. It seems to me that many of the problems we are facing from sea to sea and from north to south will be increased if the mobility of our labour force is impaired. We need to develop this country on the basis of a greater diversity of industry.
We must look forward to the day when we have industry throughout all parts of Canada, not just concentrated around the great lakes, along the St. Lawrence river and so on. I am not critical of the development that has taken place in these areas, because it has been natural, but I believe that much in this present housing scheme is going to add to the problem of obtaining a diversification of industry. It is here that the rental housing part of this measure can do a great deal for Canada's future. I think the burden should not be great, and I believe that if subsidized rental housing is properly handled and appreciated with the co-operation of the three levels of government concerned a great deal of benefit will result.
In my home constituency I do not think that some of the schemes we are now discussing would have been accepted by the municipal authorities a few years ago, but because of the problem of dealing with juveniles, because of the problem of welfare, dedicated citizens have been taking a hard look at the problems of housing. They have done a wonderful job and they have assembled facts and ideas which are very worth-while reading. I do not intend to go into detail, but because of the work of these citizens interested in this aspect of housing we have a senior citizens home which is a real asset, and I am sure that not one taxpayer in the city of Regina would oppose an extension of those facilities.
In fact, the facilities are being extended under the auspices of a church group. Last month a subsidized low rental housing scheme opened with 110 units, I believe it was. Certainly I do not think any taxpayer looking at that scheme and realizing the appreciative attitude of the people it will benefit would reject an extension of that project.

Thus I hope that under this measure these areas of housing will be well looked after.
Another thing that bothers me a bit, and again I may be naive but I want to bring this to the minister's attention, is the question of the mortgage of the future. A young couple starts out and moves into a new home. They apportion their income to get a start with the furniture and furnishings and become settled. In many cases they are both working, and until the family comes along they carry on their two jobs. That has become a common practice. Many marriages occur while the people concerned are still in universities. It is when the family comes along and the take-home pay is usually cut that difficulties arise. I think more and more of these young people are realizing that if while they have an opportunity to earn two incomes they get used to living on one their future will be assured when the family comes along.
The point I wish to stress is this. Canadians are taking on these obligations for a period of 25 or 30 years at a young age. Their ability to fulfil the obligations depends on the breadwinner of the family. A certain proportion of these will die prematurely. What will happen to the women and children who are left facing those obligations?
I was engaged in business for a number of years and enjoyed the benefits of group insurance. After I left business and converted I found the cost of individual insurance almost too much to bear and yet I required insurance even at my advanced stage in life.
I do not know what can be done in relation to the problem I have raised. A certain select few young people in taking on long term obligations will be able to obtain mortgage insurance to protect their families but for most Canadians it is impossible on an individual basis. It seems to me, therefore, that group insurance would be a reasonable answer. While protection is given to the builder and those who advance the money there is no protection for the individual family. I believe that is an avenue that should be explored. If Canadians were able to obtain mortgage insurance protection at a cost of one half of one per cent or three quarters of one per cent of the value of the mortgage they would be afforded protection. If some reasonable arrangement could be worked out whereby they could obtain this protection I would almost go so far as to suggest it would be mandatory. I urge the minister to investigate that possibility.
It is a source of pleasure to me to see young Canadian families with their fine sturdy youngsters living in the healthy environment of some of our subdivisions but I often pause

to think about what would happen it the breadwinner were to be taken away. I have investigated mortgage insurance and find that insurance on a mortgage for $12,000 on an individual basis is out of the reach of most people. An urgent need exists in this field and it is my earnest hope that the government will investigate the possibility of meeting this need.
I am most pleased concerning the announcement of aid for the construction of university student residences. We have a junior college at Regina and many students from Regina attend the University of Saskatoon. Our needs are developing and that college will soon become a full-fledged university within the next few years. Toward that end the faculty was increased by five or six members this year. If the availability of this assistance will hasten that development by even one year it will be a matter of great benefit for the people whose children must go from the south up to Saskatoon in order to obtain their education.
When it comes to technicalities and details the experts can offer their opinions. I have taken only a few minutes of the time of the committee without apologies to anyone in order to make my own contributions. I hope that these will be considered worth while. I commend the minister and the government for the introduction of this measure.


Mr. Weichel:: Mr. Chairman, like other hon. members of this committee I am pleased to congratulate our government and especially the Minister of Public Works who has given so much of his time and effort to preparing and bringing forth this resolution. The legislation as foreshadowed in the resolution will meet a great need among many of our people especially our younger married couples and our senior citizens.
It has been brought up in the general discussion that there was a decline in the number of new housing starts in 1960. This was not the case in my constituency. The young men's club of Kitchener opened their new apartments for senior citizens this year through the kind co-operation of Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation. All rooms are occupied to the satisfaction of this club and all tenants. These apartments are a credit to the young men's club and to the city of Kitchener.
This year the Canadian Legion of Kitchener officially opened the north Waterloo elderly persons home. I am privileged to be a director of this project. Every effort has been made by the Legion to make these homes a truly adequate low rental housing project so that these people who are only in receipt of the social security allowance of $55 a month will be in a position to live comfortably and enjoy the 90205-6-104
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remaining years of their lives. The following rates are asked, $43.50 per month for married persons and $37.50 for single persons. The "no vacancy" sign hangs at this home. Again, C.M.H.C. played its part. Other projects are also anticipated in my area.
A tremendous increase in Legion community programs is very noticeable in most Legion branches of Canada. Among the contributions which the 242,000 member Legion has now made is the $3 million it has invested in low cost housing for elderly Canadians. These units consisting of some bungalows and some apartments are located in 12 centres across Canada and have been built by Legion branches of provincial command. Once more, C.M.H.C. has played its full part.
The University of Waterloo in my riding will be pleased indeed concerning the amendment to the National Housing Act which will make available loans to universities for the purpose of providing quarters for their students who in many instances live many miles from the universities. The need is great for such facilities. As was mentioned before, the amendment relating to home construction is very essential as new homes will be needed by our increasing population and by immigrants who are anxious to make Canada their future home.
I wish to thank the Minister of Public Works for his past assistance and I realize that the forthcoming legislation he has in mind will be of great benefit to many Canadians. I am pleased to support the resolution the minister has brought forward.


Mr. Hales:: Mr. Chairman, I should like to join with other hon. members of the committee in complimenting our Minister of Public Works on the introduction of this resolution forecasting progressive amendments to the National Housing Act. Practically all the things I had in mind to say in relation to these amendments have been said. I would simply like to bring to the attention of the committee the fact that these amendments will be of great assistance to our municipalities.
Just a few years ago the city of Guelph in my own riding built a sewage disposal plant at a cost of $1J million. I was thinking what a great help it would have been to that municipality if assistance of this kind had been available at that time and how helpful it would have been to home owners to have been able to make a smaller down payment on building homes than was the case in the past.
The question of pollution and the building of these trunk sewers has been fully explained this afternoon and last evening

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and there is no question that this assistance will be of great benefit. When we consider that only one sixth of the urban municipalities have adequate sewage facilities we can appreciate what a progressive step this represents.
There is in my constituency a small town that is anxious to attract industry. As hon. members know, industry is dependent on adequate water and sewage facilities. I can see where this amendment will make it possible for this town to proceed with the necessary sewage disposal arrangements and thereby be in position to attract industry which it so badly needs.
I am happy to see that the payments will be made directly to the municipalities, and we as a federal government will be given firsthand credit for making those loans available. I think one of the most important features of these amendments made by the minister is that of the backing of bank loans for the improvement of existing houses. As we may or may not have realized, in order to get a national home improvement loan one had to live in the building himself. Up until October 11, when the minister made the proclamation that one no longer had to live in the house, you could not get loans for property that you were renting.
I was very interested in the remarks of the hon. member for Regina who said not everyone found it possible to buy a house because people are often transferred and there is such a thing as mobility. There are many people who like to rent houses but find it impossible to do so. I think this change will make it possible for people to improve houses for renting and more rental houses will be available to the public. I think of the great effect that the making of these loans will have on the unemployment situation. I think of structural changes, interior and exterior decorating, plumbing, heating and electrical work on all the places that are to be improved by the availability of those loans. I think these are wonderful amendments that are being made to the National Housing Act and they can do nothing but aid substantially the construction industry and render a very beneficial effect to our economy.


Hon. D. J. Walker (Minister of Public Works):: I first want to say how pleased I am with the tremendous interest taken in this resolution by members of the government side of the house particularly. I am sure the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate will forgive me if I tell him I have been shocked at the lack of interest in this resolution by members of his party.


John Whitney Pickersgill: We want to see the bill.


Mr. Mcllraith:: We want to see the bill.


David James Walker: I was under the impression that it was at the resolution stage that we discussed the general principles of the legislation and received some of the very valuable information and assistance which we should get, and which should be forthcoming at this time. After all, it seems very odd to me that at the introduction of legislation by a minister who is doing his best to bring down a bill in connection with housing which will meet the needs of our dominion the senior cabinet ministers of yesteryear should sit quietly by, out of joint, out of countenance and somewhat disconsolate. Why I do not know; I have never seen this attitude before.


John Whitney Pickersgill: We merely want to get on with the business of parliament.


David James Walker: Yes, we want to get on with the business of parliament and the reason why we want to get on with it is to get the valuable suggestions which we get at the resolution stages of legislation.
May I say that not one of the members on this side of the house who made contributions, or who spoke-and I also say this of the C.C.F. group-made suggestions that did not have some merit. I commend this to the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate and his leader who admitted that the reason for the failure of the Liberal party was that they lived so long with the brass that they paid little attention to the grass. I have gained from these suggestions.
May I say, Mr. Chairman, that the good features in this resolution and in the bill which will be introduced shortly I take no credit for. There are good features in the legislation because we as a group of 206 have lived together as brothers in parliament here. We have discussed these things in caucus; we have discussed them in our private meetings and I have had no end of assistance from the private members of the house and from the backbenchers.
I might say that if this bill is successful, then I can thank the backbenchers of parliament, because not one suggestion is incorporated in this bill that has not at one time or another been made to me by the members on this side of the house. I thought you should know that.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Will the minister permit a question?


David James Walker: Delighted; this is the first interest you have taken in the bill.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Is any change to be made in the bill as a result of the discussion which has taken place at the resolution stage of this legislation in this session?


David James Walker: That is a very helpful suggestion. I am glad to say that we contemplate-


John Whitney Pickersgill: It is a question, not a suggestion.


David James Walker: It is a question, and the answer is yes, we are considering changes as the result of some of the suggestions.


John Whitney Pickersgill: The bill is not printed, then?


David James Walker: The bill is already printed; it has been printed for several days. We have made amendments from time to time.


John Whitney Pickersgill: In other words, there is not going to be any change.


David James Walker: My hon. friend is asking me a question and also giving me the answers. That is not unusual.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I am making sure the answers are correct.


David James Walker: May I also say it was at least pleasant to hear from the hon. member for Nipissing. Of all that group only the hon. member for Nipissing had anything to say, and really all he said was-and he says it will and very pleasantly, too-we agree with everything you have done but why did you not do it sooner? Of course, it is not his fault that the Liberal party, of which he was a member, was in office for 22 years and did not do anything in connection with housing.
I thank the hon. member for Vancouver East for his questions and may I say this: On the question of septic tanks he has a very good point. The policy of Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation is this. Septic tanks will, as in the past, be accepted for home owner applicants in rural areas. A rural area is defined as an area which is neither urban nor suburban in character and which, because of its size, rate of growth and economic position, could not be expected to be provided with pipe services.
As to urban areas, in the past loans have generally been available to home owner applicants where septic tanks were proposed. However, effective January 1, 1961, for both insured and direct home owner loans, approval will only be given, one, where a municipality provides evidence that pipe service will be available within a reasonable period of time; two, where lots remaining in subdivisions previously accepted for septic tanks are being used; and, three, under certain exceptional circumstances, and these are the exceptional circumstances. It must be established to the satisfaction of the local manager that the installation of piped service is not practicable in the foreseeable future and that septic tanks are the only means of servicing the land. In such cases a written
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recommendation will be required from municipal and provincial authorities.
In reply to the hon. member for Assiniboia who asked how many work hours are you going to get out of this? As I said yesterday, I am just a minister; I am not a prophet. I did predict participation of the government in these plans. And in that we were right because we had some control over it, but in predicting the number of starts I was out somewhat and therefore I would not like to make a prediction at this time; but I ask hon. members to join with me in thinking of the prospects of employment, and how many will be employed. All we are doing is the very best we can to create enterprises for the employment of the unemployed.
My hon. friend asked about urban redevelopment. Every major city in Canada with the exception of two has renewal studies either completed or under way. They are investigating the blighted areas in their respective towns and when their recommendations come forward something can be done about the matter with the assistance of Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation. With respect to urban redevelopment, and this is important from the point of view of employment, in the past we in co-operation with the municipality concerned have made a 50 per cent contribution to the acquisition and the clearance of whole areas. It then becomes expensive to have to construct new housing in such an area. One of the great features of the bill which will come before the house in the very near future is that instead of such areas being completely demolished and new dwellings erected, which is a very expensive thing to do, houses and properties which are not completely blighted will be rehabilitated. That is a large scale job and it can spread right across Canada and create a great deal of employment. I cannot say how the municipalities are going to take advantage of these provisions. All we can do is to make the opportunity available to them and invite them to participate.
There is another tremendous project if the public takes to it. There are 1,500,000 rental units across Canada and up till now loans have not been available for improvements. A couple of months ago we made it possible to obtain rental property improvement loans. There are 1,500,000 such units and if rental property improvement loans are sought for even a percentage of them you can imagine the tremendous amount of employment that will be provided during the winter months. There are immense possibilities there. I hope this plan is well advertised but I cannot contemplate how much employment is going to be provided although the potentialities are tremendous.

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So far as N.H.A. housing is concerned, we have done two things. We are primarily interested in the little man and by raising the loan ratio to 95 per cent on the value of the house as ascertained by Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation we are cutting the down payment in half on a $10,000 loan. The down payment is being cut to $500 which is going to bring in a new group of citizens across Canada. How great their numbers will be I do not know. It is impossible to predict but think of the opportunity for the little man who up to now has not been able to make the down payment. He is going to be able to pay the instalments each month because he probably pays far more in rent at the present time. His problem has been to get enough money together to make the down payment. Of course, after he gets it he has to furnish his house and so on.
This provision is going to be a great incentive. Incidentally, when I speak of the little man I speak of him in the most respectful terms because in my riding some of the best citizens of Canada are very happy and proud to be in that category. They are in the lower income bracket and such people are entitled to the very best we can give them.
There is a second change which should also create employment but whether it does is up to the public. We have raised the maximum loan from $12,800 to $14,200 for a three bedroom house and to $14,900 for a four bedroom or larger house. This brings in a new group of people who heretofore have been unwilling to build. Why? Because they shy away from second mortgages and also for other reasons. Here is another brand new group. How great the employment will be I am not in a position to say at the present time.
Think also of this advantage, and I speak again of the little man who may say, "How much is it going to cost me a month to run my house? What will my monthly payment be?" He will be greatly helped by the extension of the amortization period of the loan from 30 to 35 years. If he does not need that long he can have a period of 25 years or less. However, if he needs it he can have the period extended to 35 years. This is also a tremendous incentive. How much employment will it create? That is up to the public. I cannot prognosticate. Let me say, however, that there is no greater way of creating onsite and off-site employment than the building of houses because you have two men on the job, two men off the job and another man constructing sewers and so on, five men occupied for six months in the building of a house. These are the statistics. Therefore you can see that there are great possibilities for employment.

I come now to the matter of sewage disposal plants. The hon. member for Assiniboia made some comparison of the Mackenzie building and housing. There is no comparison. The Mackenzie building is an expensive building equipped with intricate parts and naturally on-site employment would be very small. In that case most of the money goes into the materials whereas in the case of a house a great part of the money goes to pay for man-hours of work. Therefore housing as distinct from big public buildings is a much better way to create employment, and that is why I referred to the Mackenzie building as being a very expensive way to create employment.
Sewage disposal plants, as hon. members can appreciate, create a lot of employment and I may say that we are receiving in our office almost every day inquiries and demands for more information. I would have thought that the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillin-gate would have been an authority in this particular field.
Finally, I conclude by going from the depths to the heights and talking about university housing.


George James McIlraith: You mean you have climbed up some?


David James Walker: My hon. friend will not be able to appreciate this but nevertheless there are universities that are ready to come in with us immediately and assist us to create employment. There is tremendous scope here for employment. All that the government can do is to create the climate and the opportunities. It is then up to the public to take advantage of them.
If my hon. friends are not going to take part in the debate and assist us, all I ask is that they should at least not pour cold water on these proposals. They want to solve the unemployment situation as much as we do. Do they not think that in this legislation we have opened up a great vista of employment?


Mr. Chevrier:: Let us get on with the matter. Stop filibustering yourself.
Resolution reported and concurred in.


Mr. Speaker:: Is the house prepared to proceed with the next stage notwithstanding the hour?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
Mr. Walker thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. C-42, to amend the National Housing Act.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Lionel Chevrier: May I have some indication of what we shall be doing on Monday? Perhaps the house leader could also indicate the business of the house for tomorrow and Friday.


Mr. Churchill:: The practice we followed last year, Mr. Speaker, was to announce on Thursday night the business for the following week. That is the situation I am in at the present time. For tomorrow we will take
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second reading of the bill to amend the National Housing Act followed by, if there is time, the resolution in the name of the Minister of Labour dealing with technical and vocational training. The other item of business which would be available for Friday, if these two items are concluded, would be the second reading of the bill dealing with small business.
It being three minutes after six o'clock, the house adjourned without question put, pursuant to standing order.
142	HOUSE OF
Question