1960-05-25

[Stage Direction]
Second report of standing committee on estimates-Mr. Smith (Calgary South).


[Stage Direction]
Mr. Heward Grafftey (for Miss Aitken)
presented the fifth report of the standing committee on standing orders, and moved that the report be concurred in.
Motion agreed to.


Mr. Theogene Ricard (St. Hyacinihe-Bagol) moved:: That the special committee on research appointed on May 16, 1960 be composed of Messrs. Aiken, Batten, Best, Bourget, Brunsden, Cadieu, Dumas, Forgie, Fortin, Godin, MacLellan, Mcllraith, McQuillan, Morissette, Murphy, Nielsen, Payne, Peters, Smith (Winnipeg North), Stewart.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


Mr. Martin (Essex East): 1.	Has the government received representations from any chamber of commerce or businessmen's association objecting to the establishment of duty free shops in border cities?
2.	If so, from whom have representations been received?
3.	What were the nature of the representations, and what was the nature of any reply?


Hon. Leon Balcer (Acting Secretary of Slate):: Mr. Speaker, the answer to part 1 is yes.
The answer to part 2 is: The Retail Merchants Association of Canada, the Hamilton downtown association, the Canadian retail hardware association, the merchants' association of Niagara Falls, chambers of commerce of Banff, Alberta, Westport, Midland, Gana-noque, North Bay, Belleville, St. Catharines, Peterborough and Amherstburg, Ontario.
The answer to part 3 is: these representations expressed objection to the operation of bonded warehouses in conjunction with retail sales outlets and concern about the impact
such sales might have on other businesses. Certain of the chambers asked that the Customs Act be amended to forbid in bond sales to tourists. In reply it was pointed out that it would be difficult to amend the present legislation without at the same time handicapping the traditional warehousekeeper, and at this early stage it cannot be determined what effect this merchandising practice will have on established retailers in Canada; but the government is watching its development carefully.


INSURED HOUSING LOANS BY BANKS, MUNICIPALITIES UNDER 10,000
Mr. Benidickson: 1.	Since January 1, 1960, how many insured housing loans have been made by banks to dwellers in municipalities with populations under 10,000?
2.	What was the comparable figure for period commencing January 1, 1959?


Hon. D. J. Walker (Minister of Public Works):: The answer to question 1; for the period January 1, 1960 to April 30, 1960, seven. The answer to question 2; for the same period last year, 1,042.


CLEANING WORK, DAGENAIS RIVER AND COTE BROOK, PALMAROLLE COUNTY, QUE.
Mr. Leduc: 1.	Did the Department of Public Works have cleaning work done on the Dagenais river and the Cote brook, in the township of Palmarolle in the county of Abitibi-West, during 1958 and 1959?
2.	If so, how much did the said work cost?
3.	What was the name of the foreman and how many men were employed on this work?
Hon. D. J. Walker (Minister of Public
Works): The answer to question 1 is yes.
The answer to question 2 is $7,794.79.
The answer to question 3 is; foreman, Mr. Emilien Begin of Palmarolle, Quebec, and 33 men were employed on this work.


INSURED HOUSING LOANS BY NON-BANK LENDERS, MUNICIPALITIES UNDER 10,000
Mr. Benidickson: 1.	Since January 1, 1960, how many insured housing loans have been made by approved lenders, other than banks, under the National Housing Act to dwellers in municipalities with populations under 10,000?
2.	What was the comparable figure for period commencing January 1, 1959?


David James Walker: Mr. Speaker, this matter is complicated, and I wonder if the hon. member

Starred Questions
would let it stand for a week to enable me to get the figures for the number in municipalities under 10,000.


Mr. Benidickson:: Stand.
Question stands.


CARILLON POWER DEVELOPMENT
Mr. Chevrier: 1.	Have contracts been awarded for the development of power and navigation on the Ottawa river at Carillon?
2.	If so. to whom and in what amounts?
3.	What plan has been adopted by L'Hydro-Quebec to develop power in this area and what effect will the plan have upon the water levels of the Ottawa river and on the water levels and ice conditions in the port of Montreal?
4.	Have tenders been called for the construction of the lock at Carillon?
5.	If so, what companies have submitted tenders?
6.	What was the amount of each tender?
7.	Was the contract awarded to the lowest tenderer?


David James Walker: Mr. Speaker, the answer to question No. 1 is; this is a Quebec hydro project, and as such that agency, which of course is provincial, will award the necessary contracts. No details, therefore, of contracts that may be awarded are available.
The second question is answered by the reply I have just given.
The answer to the third question is that the plan of operation is still under discussion, but in general it can be said that conditions on the river both above and below Carillon, including the port of Montreal, will not be adversely affected by the operation.
Questions 4, 5, 6 and 7 are answered by the reply I have given to the first question.


CHLORATHIOZIDE DRUG PURCHASES
Mr. Howard: 1.	Since January 1, 1958, has any medical doctor attached to, or working under the jurisdiction of, any department of government made a special request that the Department of Veterans Affairs purchase a pharmaceutical known as chlorathiozide from Merck Sharpe and Dohme?
2.	H so, what is (a) the name of each such doctor; (b) the reasons for each such request; (c) the date upon which each such request was made; (d) the amounts for each such pharmaceutical purchased upon such request?


Hon. A. J. Brooks (Minister of Veterans Affairs):: It will take some considerable time to prepare this information, so if the hon. member would allow the question to stand I should be obliged.


Mr. Speaker:: Stand.
Question stands.


COMBINES INVESTIGATION BRANCH PERSONNEL
Mr. Howard: What are the names and the professional status and background of each of the deputy directors, combines officers, of investigation and research as well as of the director of investigation and research of the combines investigation branch of the Department of Justice?


Hon. E. D. Fulion (Minister of Justice):: May
this question stand until next week?


Mr. Speaker:: Stand.
Question stands.


QUESTION PASSED AS ORDER FOR RETURN
Mr. Peters: 1.	(a) What was the purchase price paid to each processor for pork obtained by the federal government, during the past five years? (b) what was the grade of pork and how much was paid for each cut to each processor?
2.	How much money was paid by the government for storage, how much to each company and what is the location of each storage plant?
3.	Was any of this pork sold back to the processors? If so, at what price for each cut and grade?
4.	(a) How much was sold to each packer? (b) how much pork held by the federal government was sold or distributed to other than packers and meat processors in Canada?
5.	Was any pork canned during the past five years?
6.	If so, (a) how much; (b) was it packed in cans with government labels or with packing company labels; (c) how much in each case; (d) at what price to each packer?


MOTIONS FOR PAPERS
[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 113-Mr. Chevrier:
For a copy of the reports made by a special team of the Department of Transport and the Department of Public Works, concerning improvements to navigation and port and harbour facilities in the following places from October, 1957 to date: Belleville, Ontario; Brockville, Ontario; Chandler, Quebec; Collingwood, Ontario; Cornwall, Ontario; Dorion, Quebec; Gaspe, Quebec; Goderich, Ontario; Grand Manan, New Brunswick; Hamilton, Ontario; Kingston, Ontario; Fort William and Port Arthur, Ontario; Magdalen islands, Quebec; Matane, Quebec; Midland, Ontario; Minas Basin; Morrisburg, Ontario; Oshawa, Ontario; Prescott, Ontario; Ri-mouski-Pointe-au-Pere, Quebec; Port Colborne, Ontario; Riviere-du-Loup, Quebec; Sarnia, Ontario; Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario; St. Charles river area; Sydney, Nova Scotia and area; Wallaceburg, Ontario; Whitby, Ontario; Windsor, Ontario.
Léon Balcer: I wonder if the hon. member would allow this motion to stand in the absence of the minister.


Mr. Speaker:: Is the hon. member content to have this matter stand?


Mr. Chevrier:: Yes.


Mr. Speaker:: Stand.
Motion stands.


PROPOSED ORGANIZATION TO CO-ORDINATE ASSISTANCE  CANADIAN PARTICIPATION
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. L. B. Pearson (Leader of the Opposition):: I should like to ask the Prime Minister or, if it is more appropriate, the minister most concerned, a question arising out of a report in the press today that representatives of 20 states and the European common market met in Paris to discuss a draft convention for a new economic organization to co-ordinate growth and development assistance.
My question is, is Canada represented at this meeting; if so, by whom, and what are the general instructions to our representatives?


Hon. Gordon Churchill (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: The report is correct; the meeting is going on. We are represented by Mr. Ritchie. The delegation is operating under instructions given it before leaving.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Lionel Chevrier: May I direct a question to the Minister of Labour, based on the joint press release issued today on the unemployment situation. In view of the fact that the percentage of persons without jobs and seeking work is approximately the same as it was two years ago, at the height of the recession, will the minister tell the house whether the government proposes to take any steps to deal with this problem?


Hon. Michael Starr (Minister of Labour):: I have not yet had an opportunity to analyse the release, which was just handed to me on my way to the house. Now I shall have to look at it more carefully. However, I can assure the hon. member that the government is at all times taking action to relieve any situation where a problem exists, and that applies also in this case.


Lionel Chevrier: I wonder if I might direct a supplementary question to the minister which he could answer at a later date, unless of course he is in a position to do so now. The question arises in view of the contents of the last paragraph but one of the first part of the release. In view of the fact that the press release reveals that 37 per cent of the jobless total has been seeking work from four to six months, and 12 per cent for more than
Inquiries of the Ministry six months, will the minister tell the house whether his department is proposing any remedies to deal with this hard core of persistent unemployment?
Is there any answer to the question, or will the minister take it as notice?


Michael Starr: Mr. Speaker, in view of the question which was put I did not think it was necessary to answer. All the hon. member asked me to do was ascertain whether the department could find some remedy for the problem.



INQUIRY AS TO REPORT ON SALE OF STANROCK URANIUM CONTRACT

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. D. M. Fisher (Port Arihur):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce based upon what I understand was the receipt by various hon. members of the house of over 3,000 telegrams, of which I received a substantial portion, relating to the need of the government to take action with respect to the disposition of certain mining contracts. In view of this pressure action from Elliot Lake will the minister tell us what action the government is contemplating and indicate when a decision is likely to be reached?


Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Speaker, I have also received my share of the telegrams sent from Elliot Lake. There are contracts under consideration relating to the Stanley mine and the Stanrock mine. Bids have been made for those contracts. As I stated yesterday in the house, I am awaiting a report from the board of directors of Eldorado with regard to the disposition of the contracts.



FISHERIES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Harold E. Winch (Vancouver East):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Fisheries. Has the minister noticed the decision of the fisheries association of British Columbia not to resume herring operations this year? If so, can the minister inform the house of any interest or action being taken by his department to bring about a resumption of this very important phase of the fishing industry of British Columbia?


Hon. J. A. MacLean (Minister of Fisheries):: Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of a final decision to that effect, but this may be so. In any case, I shall look into the matter and reply at greater length later.
4220	HOUSE OF
Inquiries of the Ministry POWER



COLUMBIA RIVER


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Minister of Justice whether he is in a position to report to the house on the meeting which has just been held in Washington on the Columbia river project, and more particularly whether he would comment on a statement reported to have been made by a spokesman there that this project is on the borderline now, neither completely approved nor completely rejected.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Mr. Speaker, to deal with the last part of the question first, I have not seen the statement and I do not know who the spokesman purports to be. There have been a number of project sequences under discussion, and I would therefore not care to comment because, as I understand it, the statement of the alleged spokesman refers to "a project". I can only repeat that more than one project sequence has been under consideration.
The meeting took place on Monday and Tuesday of this week and the discussions, as was outlined in a press release, were helpful in further narrowing the areas of difference between the two negotiating teams. A further meeting has been arranged for June 20 and 21 to be held in Ottawa following a further meeting of the international work group which will be working on the data relevant to the various project sequences that have been under discussion.
It is hoped that after that meeting a progress statement at least might be issued. We hope to be in that position although I would not want to be taken as guaranteeing that this will happen.


Lester Bowles Pearson: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Does the minister now share the hope expressed over the air in March by the Prime Minister that before the present congress rises a firm agreement will be reached between the two governments on this matter?


Edmund Davie Fulton: There is some uncertainty as to when congress will rise; but on the basis that it will rise in early July, there is room to hope that in so far as the negotiators are concerned they will be able to report firm recommendations to their governments before that event takes place, and it might even be possible for a tentative agreement or a joint statement of progress to be made by the two governments.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Not an agreement?
[Mr. MacLean (Queens).)


Edmund Davie Fulton: Well, I would think that would be running it fairly close, to say we would have a firm agreement before congress rises.


Harold Edward Winch: Mr. Speaker, may I ask a supplementary question in view of the importance of this matter to British Columbia. Could he indicate to the house when he feels that Canada and the United States may reach a decision with respect to the development of the Columbia river; and would he estimate that agreement would be achieved a long time ahead of the five years which the premier of British Columbia indicated it would take the two governments to reach an agreement?


Edmund Davie Fulton: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I can answer that question without hesitation. I believe an agreement can be reached long before the end of five years.



NATIONAL DEFENCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Paul Hellyer (Trinity):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Defence. Does the government plan to equip the Sabre jets of our air division in Europe with the new rocket booster developed by the United States air force, which would give them supersonic capability and increased performance at high altitude?


Hon. G. R. Pearkes (Minister of National Defence):: This device is still in the development stage. I think it is unlikely that we shall be able to adopt it for the Sabre F-86's, the reason being they are being replaced next year by the 104's and it is unlikely, even if development is speeded up, that this booster would be available by that time.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: A supplementary question. Does the minister still hold that the F-104's will be available for re-equipping the air division next year?


George Randolph Pearkes: It is anticipated that the 104's will start to become available for the squadrons in Europe next year.
(Translation):



CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. N. Tremblay (Roberval):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Revenue or, in his absence, to his parliamentary secretary.

Why did the C.B.C. suspend its scheduled programs on May 23 over the French T.V. network in order to broadcast a special program on the first show business convention held in Montreal that same day?


Mr. M. J. A. Lambert (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of National Revenue):: I shall take this question as notice, and answer it later.


Jean-Noël Tremblay: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.
Could the parliamentary secretary supply, at the same time, an answer to the following question.
Does the C.B.C. make a practice of telecasting proceedings at various association conventions in the province of Quebec? If not, why was it done in this particular instance?


Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert: Mr. Speaker, the same answer applies to this question.



REPORTED INTENTION TO SEND PRODUCTION TEAM TO EUROPE

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Louis Fortin (Monimagny-L'Islei):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Minister of National Revenue a question; as he is not here, I would ask his parliamentary secretary to take this as notice.
The C.B.C. recently announced that the whole producing unit of the "Chez Miville" program will travel to Europe this summer to prepare some programs for the benefit of French-speaking Canadians. I would like the minister to tell us whether the C.B.C. or the sponsor will be paying the costs of that pleasant trip.


Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert: Mr. Speaker, I shall take the question as notice, and it will be answered later.



PUBLIC SERVICE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Robert Lafreniere (Quebec-Monlmo-rency):: Mr. Speaker, may I ask a question of the Solicitor General who is also Acting Secretary of State.
I have received from the civil service commission a notice of a competition for the hiring of cleaning service men for the federal buildings in the city of Quebec.
Inquiries of the Ministry
The first qualification required of those chore-men is the knowledge of French and English.
I should like to know why a floor-washer has to be bilingual to work in a federal building in the city of Quebec?
I should like to know whether the civil service commission's requirements are the same for jobs of that type in other cities of Canada?


Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker, 1 am not aware of the case referred to by my hon. friend. I admit that, on the face of it, it seems ridiculous to me.
I want to assure you that I will look with particular attention into this matter, and take it up with the civil service commission. I will see that so ridiculous a condition is redressed.
(Text):



CRIMINAL LAW


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Douglas Mason Fisher: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of Justice. Is there any comment from the minister on the Ontario government's creation of a four-man expert advisory committee on obscene literature, from the point of view as to whether this suggests any dissatisfaction with or inadequacy in the 1959 amendments to the Criminal Code which the minister introduced and we passed last year?


Edmund Davie Fulton: Mr. Speaker, I am afraid I have not been provided with-or at any rate I have not seen-a copy of the terms of reference of that committee and I am, therefore, not aware of the basis upon which it was appointed. In the absence of such knowledge I am sorry I am unable to make any firm comment in the form requested by the hon. member. I should not think that it represents any feeling that our legislation is inadequate because I would assume that if there was that feeling I would have been officially advised of the fact.



IMMIGRATION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. J. W. Pickersgill (Bonavisla-Twil-lingale):: I wonder if I could ask the Minister of Justice, either in his capacity as Minister of Justice or in his capacity as Acting Minister of Citizenship and Immigration, whether

Inquiries of the Ministry he could give the house any information on the fantastic story attributed to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police that approximately half the Chinese immigrants to Canada since the war have entered this country illegally.


Edmund Davie Fulton: would not care to comment on that, Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the minister. I would want to check with the minister before giving an answer. But I certainly do not accept the allegation that any statement made by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police is fantastic.


John Whitney Pickersgill: May I ask a supplementary question. Could the minister check with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police to see whether this information was given to the press, particularly in view of the fact that similar information was denied to the house yesterday?


Edmund Davie Fulton: I will check on that.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Now that the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration is in the house I should like to ask if she would carry on from where she left off in what was carried on the television news indicating that a more humane attitude would be adopted toward people of Chinese origin who have entered the country illegally. I wonder if she could go on from that and indicate what effect it might have on the Chan case.


Hon. Ellen L. Fairclough (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration):: There are two separate questions there.


Some hon. Members:: No.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Oh, yes there are. In so far as any persons are concerned who are in the country in an irregular way, I have already said that the facilities of the department will be placed at their disposal to try to regularize their entry. So far as Chan is concerned, that is an entirely different problem.


Douglas Mason Fisher: The reason for that addendum was that in this case the man applied through legal channels. I am just wondering whether this new attitude of the government would have any effect on people like Chan.



REFERENCE TO SPEECH BY PRIME MINISTER IN LONDON, ENGLAND, MAY 2

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. J. Robichaud (Gloucester):: May I
direct a question to the Prime Minister. In view of the high total of 787,000 unplaced applicants according to the figures released today by the dominion bureau of statistics, would the Prime Minister express his views


today on the statement he made in London to the effect that our labour force will welcome at this time tens of thousands of immigrants?


Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, I have nothing to add to what has already been said in that connection.



REQUEST FOR OCCUPATIONS FOR WHICH IMMIGRANTS ARE BEING SOUGHT

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John Whitney Pickersgill: I wonder if I could ask the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration whether she will soon be in a position to furnish the house with a list of occupations for which immigrants are now being sought, which she undertook to do some time ago?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Speaker, I do not recall that I undertook to prepare a list. I offered the hon. member the use of the guide, with which he is familiar and which is produced by the department.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Would the hon. lady be good enough to furnish an up to date copy of the guide?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I will be glad to make it available to the hon. member. As he understands, it is a departmental document which does not have general distribution, but I will be glad to supply him with a copy.



UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Harold Edward Winch: should like to ask the Minister of Labour whether it is possible for him to supply the house, at a convenient and early date, with the number of unemployed who were cut off unemployment insurance because of the cancellation of seasonal benefits on May 15.


Michael Starr: will look into that matter and see if it is possible to furnish that information to the hon. member.



EXTERNAL AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Paul Theodore Hellyer: I should like to direct a question to the Prime Minister. In view of the catastrophic damage and tragic loss of life which has occurred in Chile, will
MAY 25, I960	4223
the government consider the advisability of rendering tangible assistance on behalf of the Canadian people?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, all of us have every sympathy for the people of Chile in the disastrous catastrophe that has taken place there. Naturally every consideration will be given to that matter, particularly after the Red Cross, which normally concerns itself with matters such as this, brings the situation to the attention of the government and the need to meet it.


PARLIAMENT HILL
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Azellus Denis (St. Denis):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Public Works. I should like to know why, three weeks ago, the Department of Public Works constructed a wooden platform and stair, as well as a ramp, to cross a 3-foot stretch of fresh cement near the main entrance to the east block, when an ordinary plank would have served the same purpose.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I am not sure that the hon. member's question comes under the heading of urgent public importance. Perhaps he has served his purpose by stating it.


Azellus Denis: I know what I am talking about, because I crossed over it.


Mr. Speaker:: I am sorry, but the hon. member could deal with that matter when the Department of Public Works estimates are being considered. His question is directed to the difference in cost between a plank and a ramp, and I do not think the house should concern itself with such matters at this time.


POST OFFICE DEPARTMENT
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Azellus Denis: May I ask
a question of the Postmaster General. Has the Postmaster General considered the advisability of finding a means by which the heavy loads carried by mail carriers will be lessened?


Hon. W. M. Hamilton (Postmaster General):: I hesitate to say that the loads ordinarily carried by letter carriers today are in any way out of proportion to their ability to shoulder them comfortably. However, we do have under test at the present time, or will have under test very shortly, a new type of two-wheeled cart. I think the closest comparison I can make to it is the golf cart with
Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act which some hon. members may be familiar as a result of their excursions on the golf course. We feel that such a cart may be of use to our letter carriers so they could roll their bags along rather than carrying them on their shoulders.
This cart is in the very early stages of development and test, and I would not want the members of the house to feel that this is a certainty for the future.


Azellus Denis: A supplementary question; will the mail carrier have to belong to a golf club?


William McLean Hamilton: Mr. Speaker, my experience has been that most of our letter carriers find it quite enough to do their walking during the week without playing golf on Sunday.


EMERGENCY GOLD MINING ASSISTANCE ACT
Hon. Paul Comtois (Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys) moved: that the house go into committee to consider the following resolution:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to amend the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act to extend its application to the years 1961, 1962 and 1963; and to provide also for certain changes in connection with the administration of the act.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Flynn in the chair.


Paul Comtois: Mr. Chairman, with your permission I should like to make a brief statement on the resolution.
The main purpose of the legislation to be introduced is the extension of assistance to the gold mining industry for an additional three years beyond the present date of expiry of December 31, 1960, without change in the present rate of assistance. A second purpose is to clarify a section of the act for administrative purposes.
You will recall that the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act was originally passed in 1948 to provide assistance to an industry which was confronted with unusual economic difficulties as a result of the combination of rising costs of production and a fixed market price for its product.
In 1958, at the time the act was extended by this house to apply to the years 1959 and 1960, it was recognized that costs of production had risen to the point where an upward revision of the rates of assistance was necessary to enable the gold mines to maintain operations. The amount of assistance payable for each of the years 1958, 1959 and 1960 was increased by 25 per cent over that calculated under the formula as written into the act.
4224	HOUSE OF
Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act
In introducing the 1958 amendment to the act I presented a brief review of the history of the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act and referred to the continuing economic problems facing the gold mining industry. A review of the present economic position of the gold mines has indicated that of the 40 lode gold mines receiving assistance payments in 1959, 25 mines would be compelled to reduce their scale of operations and perhaps cease operations if aid granted under the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act were discontinued.
One of the factors of which the government is mindful in proposing an extension of the operation of the act is the degree of dependence of the gold mining communities upon the gold mining industry. It is evident that termination of assistance payments would lead to difficulties which would have adverse effects on the employment situation in the areas concerned. Notwithstanding the efforts of the mines to reduce costs of production through the use of efficient methods and equipment, it is clear that the need for assistance is no less than it has been in recent years.
The gold mining industry is an important segment of the economic life of our country. It employs over 16,000 men directly, and the population of dependent communities exceeds 70,000 persons. In 1958 the industry expended $106 million in salaries and wages, fuel, electric power, and supplies and equipment. In the same year the industry produced a total of $155 million in gold, most of which was sold to the United States.
It is anticipated that the amount of assistance which will be paid under the provisions of the act with respect to the year 1959 will total $11.7 million. Of this amount, $2,340,000 is attributable to the increase of 25 per cent in the amount of assistance payable. At March 31, 1960 the amount of assistance which had been paid with respect to the year 1958 was, in round figures, $11,138,000, and with respect to the year 1957, $9,680,000. The total amount paid under the act during its 12 years of operation is $131,063,221.51.
Assistance payments are made on gold produced from placer operations as well as on production from lode gold mines. Placer gold is generally recovered from gravel in the beds of streams, whereas lode gold' mines usually mine vein-type gold deposits. Approximately 2,416,000 ounces of fine gold were produced in 1959 from gold mines eligible for assistance payments. Some 65,000 ounces were recovered by placer operations and the balance was produced by lode gold mines.
Of the 4,444,845 ounces of fine gold produced in Canada in 1959, 55 per cent was


produced from gold mines eligible for assistance, 33 per cent from gold mines not eligible for assistance, and 12 per cent was produced as a by-product from base metal mines and was not eligible for assistance.
The amount of assistance a mine receives depends upon both its cost of production and the number of ounces of gold it produces. The formula by which the amount of assistance payable is determined is the product of two thirds of the excess of the average cost per ounce above $26.50, and two thirds of the number of ounces produced by the operator and sold to the mint in that year. This product, increased by 25 per cent, is the assistance payable. A mine receives no assistance if its average cost of production for the year is $26.50 or less.
Fifty three lode gold mines were in operation in 1959. Forty of these mines received cost aid. The remaining 13 were ineligible because of low costs of production. One new mine commenced operation and one mine ceased production during the year.
The purpose of the amendment of subsection 1 of section 3 of the act is to ensure the maintenance of the policy of the government to pay assistance on gold bullion only when it is sold to the Royal Canadian Mint and not on gold bullion that is exported and sold elsewhere. Assistance will continue to be paid on gold exported as contained in ore or concentrates which cannot be economically treated in Canada.
In the maintenance of mining operations over extended periods of time, underground exploration for new ore and the development of known ore must be planned and executed well in advance of the extraction of the ore. In the case of marginal mines, it is especially important that the probable future utility and value of current exploration and development work be carefully assessed. This factor has been taken into consideration in proposing an extension of the operation of the act for a three-year period rather than a two-year period.
It is my hope that this measure will contribute to maintaining the level of gold production in Canada and in this way promote the well-being of our northern gold mining communities.


Mr. Dumas:: Last January, when it was announced in the throne speech that the government had decided to extend the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act for another period of three years after December 1960, the industry in general expressed satisfaction. The news was also well received by communities in Canada whose prosperity and existence depend on gold mining.

In my own constituency, however, where there are nine operating gold mines with some 4,000 gold miners on the payroll, some of the local newspapers expressed the view that the assistance was somewhat short of what it should be on account of the Canadian dollar being at such a high premium.
(Translation):
In its issue of February 18, 1 'Echo de Val d'Or, a local daily, reported a question which had been asked by Dr. H. B. Keevil, chairman of the board of directors of Lamaque Gold Mines Limited, at the annual meeting of that company. Here is the question:
Why could not the Canadian government agree temporarily to buy gold at $35 an ounce in Canadian funds, or alternatively, why could it not base its grants under the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act not only on production costs, but also on the lower prices for gold due to fluctuations in the Canadian dollar?
(Text) :
The Rouyn-Noranda Press and Val d'Or Star in their issues of the same date, February 18, 1960 expressed about the same views, and so did some of the other local newspapers.
Mr. Chairman, since its inception in 1948 the act has been amended and extended a number of times. Its main purpose is to assist the Canadian gold mines and the communities depending on that industry. In other words, the act was passed in order to prevent the collapse of the industry and the communities which it supports. Now in its thirteenth year of operation, the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act has been an invaluable interim measure without which very few gold producers or the communities which they support could have remained in operation. Canada has been producing gold for more than 60 years, but the production of the Canadian lode gold mines during 1959 was only about three times that of the year 1900, which is an extraordinary thing.
The historic contribution which the gold mining industry has made to the national economy in earlier and more favourable circumstances in creating new wealth, affording steady employment, stimulating other industries and opening up and developing northern Canada by establishing important towns and communities is a well-known matter of record. Equally well known to the Canadian people are the adverse economic factors with which the industry has had to battle since during the last world war. These have been discussed at length and in detail each time this measure has come before the House of Commons during the last 13 years.
During the post-war years the drastic impact of mounting costs of production against the fixed and controlled price of gold has
Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act operated with shattering effect upon the industry. In 1946 the Canadian gold production totalled only 2.8 million ounces as compared to 5.4 million ounces in 1941. The number of operating mines had been reduced from 140 to 88. Prospecting and exploration for new properties was brought to a standstill, and the towns and communities which depended on gold mining activity had suffered to the point where their future existence was in jeopardy.
The gravity of the situation was recognized at the time by the Canadian government, and assistance was afforded by the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act which came into effect on January 1, 1948. As I have already mentioned, with a few modifications and amendments required to meet changing conditions the act has been periodically renewed. It is due to expire at the end of the current calendar year, and parliament is asked to extend the operation of the act to 1961, 1962 and 1963.
The enactment of the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act in 1948 was made in the light of the conditions existing then. It was not anticipated that during the ensuing years there would be as sharp a drop in the mint price of gold as we have experienced since 1955. When the act was amended in 1958 it provided a straight increase of 25 per cent. That increase was welcomed, but it could have been 50 per cent and it would not have been exaggerated. To prove my point here are some figures which will be of interest to the committee.
After 1948 the general trend of the Canadian mint price of gold as determined by the fluctuation of the Canadian-United States exchange rate was upward, rising from the $35 that it was then to $38.05 in 1950. From 1950 the trend was exactly the opposite; it dropped steadily during the following six years, and the average price per ounce during that period was $34.75. During the last three years, 1957, 1958 and 1959, the average price per ounce was $33.70, and not so very long ago it went down to $33.13 per ounce.
The average price per ounce of gold paid by the Royal Canadian Mint in the first quarter of 1960 was $33.22 compared with $33.54, the average for the whole of 1959, $33.98 in 1958, $33.55 in 1957, $34.45 in 1956 and $34.52 in 1955. This deterioration in the mint price for gold during the last three years had a tremendous effect on the industry, and the increase in subsidy in 1958 was more than justified. The average mint price per ounce of gold for that period, from 1948 to 1956 inclusive, was $35.40 while the average for the last three years, 1957, 1958 and 1959, was only $33.70. This represents a loss of $1.70.
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Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act
The gold mines eligible for federal assistance produced an estimated 8.2 million ounces during the last three years. The loss of $1.70 per ounce represents a loss of revenue to these mines of some $14.4 million. This of itself nullified 44 per cent of all the assistance received during that same period, which is estimated at about $33 million including the 25 per cent increase in 1958 and 1959. The gold mining industry has been caught in the squeeze of diminishing revenues and increased costs, and considering that condition it is not surprising that the number of producing gold mines has been reduced from 88 in 1946 to 50 in 1959.
Mr. Chairman, high tribute is paid by everyone in a position to judge to the consistent and remarkable efforts which the gold producers have made in achieving the maximum of efficiency and economy. The gold miners themselves and other employees in the Canadian gold mines have also brought their contribution to bear in this respect. In many ways production crews have fought successfully against the forces of inflation, and so have continued operations which could well have been expected to close.
Those men responsible for the continuing production in the 50 Canadian gold mines we now have in operation, including the executives, the managers, the hard rock miners, surface employees and others, should be given full credit for their resourcefulness, determination and good work.
The price of gold, however, fixed by the policy of governments and, as far as Canada is concerned, subject to fluctuation with the Canadian-United States rates of exchange, is something entirely beyond the power of the gold producers and their employees to control.
The conditions under which gold mines have had to operate have grown increasingly unfavourable and are much more difficult now than they were in 1948 when the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act was instituted.
It is not possible to record any easement of operating conditions since 1956. Costs have continued to climb, and only recently has there been evidence of some levelling out in the costs of supplies. Wages, which account for close to 60 per cent of operating costs, have of necessity been increased periodically since 1948. Also there has been further decline in the mint price of gold since 1956 and, as I mentioned earlier, the mint price went as low as $33.13 in November, 1959. Indeed, the decline in the mint price of gold during the last three years has been one of the most severe handicaps with which the industry has had to contend.


Under the double impact of reduced revenue and increased costs, the cost-price squeeze has brought most of the gold mines to a more highly critical condition than any experienced since the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act was first instituted. This is why I said earlier in my remarks that the 25 per cent increase in subsidy in 1958 hardly compensated for increased costs since 1956, and that an increase of 50 per cent would have been more in line, especially in view of the adverse effect created by the high premium on the Canadian dollar which has prevailed during the last three years.
Fortunately, during the last month the premium on the Canadian dollar has come down substantially and this is of special significance to the hard-pressed gold mining industry. Yesterday the premium dropped to 1.3 per cent as compared to 4.27 per cent, the average for 1959. The Leader of the Opposition tells me that today the premium dropped to 1 per cent. So it can be seen that this drop to date represents an increase of more than $1 an ounce in the mint price for gold. If the Canadian dollar were to stabilize around par with the United States dollar the present formula of calculating the assistance paid to the gold mines would be just about right. On the other hand, if the present drop in the value of the Canadian dollar as compared to the United States dollar is only temporary, and if it is to go back to a high premium again, the present formula of calculating the assistance is certainly not adequate.
It is hardly necessary to emphasize that gold is a monetary metal and that it is un-dervaluated at $35 U.S. an ounce. The price of gold has not advanced with the rise in wages and the prices of commodities, with the result that the cost of producing gold in many of our Canadian mines is much higher than $35.
It is also a fact that the function and value of gold has been much played down during the post-war years. However, this trend seems to have been reversed lately, and it is encouraging to note the growing importance which is being attached by many prominent economists to greater production and availability of gold for the purpose of arriving at full convertibility of national currencies and promoting an increased volume of world trade.
A great number of monetary authorities consider an increase in the price of gold inevitable, but when will it come no one knows, and few will venture to guess. In the opinion of some economists, factors which might cause a change of attitude in United States include the threat of a major depression, or

a loss of gold to such an extent that United States reserves would drop to a very low level.
In the meantime the gold mining industry and the dependent communities of this country continue to be crushed between a declining price and rising costs. The answer to the question as to how many mines and communities will be able to survive and for how long depends on the wisdom of the Canadian government in continuing the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act on a fair and reasonable basis.
In introducing this resolution, the minister has mentioned certain changes in connection with the administration of the act. We will know more about those when we have the bill.
I would like the minister to give serious consideration to another minor amendment to the act, an amendment which would add very little to the total amount of assistance payable by the government but which would at the same time remove what I think has been an anomaly, more particularly since the government has deemed it advisable to increase the subsidy by 25 per cent.
Of all the gold mines operating in Canada and receiving assistance under the act there are a few with operating costs exceeding $45 per ounce. The maximum assistance to which these mines are entitled under the act is restricted in this way: that the rate of assistance factor is determined by taking two thirds of the amount by which the cost per ounce exceeds $26.50 with a maximum of $12.33. "With a maximum of $12.33" is the restrictive part of the formula. When it was deemed advisable to increase the subsidy by 25 per cent, this was done because the government and parliament were satisfied that increased production costs were such that an increase of subsidy was justified.
The anomaly is, according to me, that we are not using the same yardstick for those mines with costs exceeding $45 per ounce. For this reason I believe that the maximum of $12.33 should be increased. I leave this matter to the good judgment of the minister, and I hope he will give it full consideration.
Canada's annual gold production is approximately 4.5 million ounces of which 3.9 million are produced by lode gold mines and placer operations, and the remaining 600,000 ounces as a by-product of base metal mines. Of the 50 lode gold mines in production, all but nine qualify for assistance under the terms of the act, having annual costs in excess of $26.50 per ounce of gold produced. Few of these 41 mines could survive for any appreciable length of time without the assistance received through the Emergency Gold Mining Act.
Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act
To substantiate this I wish to draw the attention of the committee to the facts revealed in the following analysis:
1. Twenty four gold producers, producing 34 per cent of lode gold production from assisted mines, have operating costs in excess of the current mint price. Thirty two producers producing 75 per cent to 80 per cent of the lode gold production from assisted mines have costs in excess of $30 an ounce.
It is evident that mines in the first group would have little or no chance at all of survival in the absence of assistance. It is also evident that of the additional eight mines with costs between $30 and $34 an ounce few would be in a position to continue production either at all or for any length of time. Mine shut-downs in many parts of Canada would be inevitable and what is more serious, most of these shut-downs would be permanent.
The gold mining industry currently affords steady employment to more than 18,000 Canadians as compared to more than 20,000 in 1950. Most of these are the heads of families and support a number of dependants. In addition it is estimated that for each man employed in a gold mine four others are given employment in industries supplying the mines with goods and services.
Any further drastic curtailment in gold mining employment would have very serious effects on the general employment situation in Canada, which is not only less satisfactory now than it has been for many years, but is very critical. Only today the dominion bureau of statistics has reported that for the month of April there were 517,000 unemployed and seeking jobs, as compared to 445,000 for the same month in 1959. The effects, direct or indirect, of any substantial reduction in gold mining employment are bound to have serious repercussions on the national economy and would certainly require extensive and expensive measures of rehabilitation and relief.
No industry is satisfied to feel that it is in any measure dependent for its continued existence upon the federal treasury. On the other hand, no industry concurs willingly in its own demise. In considering the over-all cost to the Canadian government of expenditures made under the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act there are a number of factors which are not to be overlooked. In the first place, even if the federal treasury had to pay some $131 million in assistance to the gold mines from 1948 to 1959 inclusive, it is important to note that the cost per ounce including the subsidy for all the gold purchased by the Canadian government during that period was only about 50 cents

Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act above the average price per ounce the government had to pay during that period of 10 years previous to 1948.
Second, the government of Canada during the last 12 years has built up a substantial reserve of gold. As a result of even a moderate variation in the Canada-United States rate of exchange these stocks would show substantial appreciation. In the event of a revaluation of the price of gold the benefits which would accrue would more than compensate for all the expenditures made under E.G.M.A. and the Canadian government and the Canadian people will be the chief beneficiaries.
Third, we must not forget that a substantial portion of the amount paid in assistance returns to the federal treasury in the form of taxes. In these circumstances, the amounts paid out as assistance seem a very small price to pay for the advantages to be gained by maintaining strong gold reserves, by keeping alive the gold mining communities across the country which otherwise would become ghost towns and by maintaining high employment in these communities.


Mr. Marlin (Timmins):: Mr. Chairman, we have just heard the case of the gold mining industry placed before the committee better than it has ever been before. It will be noted that I referred to the gold mining industry-


Armand Dumas: And the employees.


Murdo William Martin: -because if this speech was not written by the mine manager's association certainly all the material came from that source and that source only.


Armand Dumas: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, the hon. member for Timmins, who I know is a good friend of the gold mining industry and its employees, has said that the material for my speech presented only the case of the industry. In my remarks I was very careful to mention that my plea was for the gold mining industry, the mining communities and the mining employees. I know the hon. gentleman does not want to be unfair, and I think this is a valid point of order.
I did not pay too much attention to that part of the hon. member's remarks, but in addition to that he suggested that my speech was written by the gold mining industry or the association. He is wrong. He surely knows that I have spoken in this chamber on behalf of gold mining for the past 11 years and I have never asked anyone to prepare any speech for me. I have always prepared my own.


The Chairman:: The hon. member for Timmins well knows it is contrary to the rules
[Mr. Dumas.l
to impute, directly or indirectly, motives to any hon. member. In his reference to the preparation of the speech of the hon. member for Villeneuve by the companies I think the hon. gentleman is guilty of an indirect imputation of motives and should accept the correction offered by the hon. member for Villeneuve.


Murdo William Martin: My reference was entirely to the material in the hon. member's speech. Since there are two sides to every story and as only one side has been presented so far by the hon. member, before presenting the other side of the story I should like to fill in a few points which the hon. member missed in regard to the difficult position in which the gold mining industry finds itself.
I have here a list of the most essential materials used in the gold mining industry such as timber, posts lagging, cribbing timber, steel plate, grinding balls, powder, cyanide and so forth. The costs of these commodities increased between 1945 and 1959. As has already been pointed out the fluctuations of the Canadian dollar make a difference and these figures may not apply as of this date but as of the end of 1959 the price received by the industry dropped to 86 per cent of what it was in 1945. The cost of essential materials used in the industry, on the other hand, increased in this period. British Columbia fir square timber increased in cost to 281 per cent; spruce 2 x 4's increased in price to 160 per cent; the cost of 2 x 8's increased to 179 per cent; the cost of 9-inch round posts increased to 211 per cent; the cost of lagging increased to 212.5 per cent; the cost of cribbing timber increased to 200 per cent. And so on down the line; the smallest increase shown in any major product used in this industry was in that of cyanide, which increased to only 129 per cent.
There is a good side and a bad side to everything, Mr. Chairman. To get a proper picture of any problem you have to look at both sides. The picture painted of the gold mining industry has been that of the great big brother or father, or what have you. We have been told that, if given the opportunity, this industry was going to do so much for the employees and the communities in which the employees live. I do not think that is giving the proper picture. Certainly, it is not one substantiated by the history of this industry. I think we need no better illustration than to go back to 1934 or 1935 when the increase in the price of gold came into effect, when gold jumped from $20 an ounce to $35 an ounce, an increase of 75 per cent. At that time the employees received the grand sum of 5 cents an hour as an increase.

There is another factor, too, that we must keep in mind if we are going to have a fair and reasonable view of this problem. While it is true that there is a fixed price for the product of the gold mining industry and while costs keep going up the price stays the same or, if the exchange on the dollar happens to go the wrong way, the price can even decrease, yet the fact still remains that it is the only industry in this country which knows exactly what it is going to get for every ounce of product that it produces. In that respect at least it is placed in a more favourable position than some of the other industries.
It has been mentioned on one or two occasions today that the purpose of this Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act was to help the industry. Certainly history has shown us that that is exactly what has happened but, I think, if we look at the original act and read the preamble to it we will find that the original intention was to help the gold mining communities and to prevent them from becoming ghost towns. There are a couple of ways in which that could be done. There is one temporary way in which it could be done and that is by paying straight assistance to the industry to keep it going, to lengthen its life. But again we must keep something in mind. The day of reckoning must come because gold is a wasting asset. Whether we extend the operation 5, 10 or 50 years, the day is going to come when there will be no more gold in those mines. Then what will happen to the communities? Therefore, there are two ways in which this very commendable objective can be reached. One is, as we have been doing in the past 12 years, to pay a subsidy directly to the industry with no strings attached.
I should like hon. members to answer one question. Are we any closer today to solving the problem of the gold mining communities than we were 12 years ago before this $131 million had been paid from the public treasury. I maintain that we are not. If the Hollinger and McIntyre mines in Timmins were to close tomorrow we would have another Matachewan ghost town on our hands, only a much bigger one. We are not one step closer to solving the problem of the communities than we were in 1948.
How much value have we had for this $131 million that we have spent from the public treasury? I do not think anyone really knows. That is why on every possible occasion since I came down here in 1957-and the hon. member for Timiskaming has also endeavoured to do the same on many occasions -I have tried to get this government to establish a committee consisting of the five
Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act interested parties, namely the federal government which pays the subsidy, the provincial government which administers the mining act, the municipalities which are so directly involved, the industry as represented by the gold operators and the miners and employees as represented by their trade unions, and have this committee look into all aspects of the gold mining industry to see if in fact we are getting value for our money, or whether there is some much better way in which this money can be spent in the future.
When we take into account the public at large, the gold mining communities, the investments in those communities, the capital investments, the houses, the schools, the churches, the streets, the sewers, the sidewalks, what are we going to have in those gold mining communities across the country 25 years from now? Will we have 50 ghost towns and 100 years from now 300 ghost towns, or is there some other way in which some use can be made of this capital investment, some better way than the one we have at the present time?
On other occasions I have listed some of the reasons why we cannot be too sympathetic toward some of the gold operators whom we have in this country at the present time. I am sorry to report that the conditions I have listed on more than one occasion have not improved. As time has gone by the gold operators of this country have not changed, they are just as unreasonable today as they were two years, five years and ten years ago. In the gold mining industry they are still fighting the battle that was fought in every other industry 25, 50 and 100 years ago. We are still being paid very low wages in the gold mining industry today. I know the mines are pleading poverty, and especially right at the present time when negotiations are opening up for a new contract. If you talk to many of the gold mining people up in my area they will tell you it looks as if the mine is going to close down this year and everybody is going to be out of work, and if you talk to someone else you find that negotiations have opened up and you know this talk will go on until a contract is signed and you will hear no more about the mine closing until the contract is opened up again.
Over the past four or five years we have seen another practice develop in the gold mining industry. As soon as the mines first opened up in Elliott Lake, at Bancroft and at Manitouwadge, and so on, where wages were twice what they were in the gold mining industry, the top miners started to trickle away from the gold mines. I do not think one could blame them too much when the wages in the Timmins area, for example, ran from $1.25

Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act to $1.50 an hour and in the Elliot Lake area they were in the neighbourhood of $3.00 an hour.
Instead of trying to compete and trying to increase wages sufficiently to keep these people at home with their families and in houses they have built and paid for-these people did not want to leave the community; their roots were very deep in the community and many of them were born there-the gold mining industry established the practice of sending recruiting teams over to Britain and Europe to bring in immigrants to replace the men. Those immigrants, or many of them, stayed only long enough to pay back their fare; and, if they did not know the French or English language, long enough to learn enough of the language to enable them to move to another place, and the gold mining industry and the gold mining communities became a sort of training ground for immigrants.
This practice is still being continued. Even in the face of the present mining situation, with which we are all familiar, with uranium mines closing down all over the place and experienced miners returning to the gold fields, what do they find? They find that two mines in the Timmins area, Hollinger Consolidated Gold Mines and McIntyre Porcupine Mines Limited, the two biggest operators in the Timmins camp, have recruiting teams over in Britain trying to lure men to come over and get these jobs ahead of the returning miners.
There was some controversy over this not too long ago. I was talking one day to the personnel manager of Hollinger Mines, and he told me that these reports were not in accordance with the facts, and that when the figures were published showing the number of miners the company had rehired, somebody's face would be very red. I wrote him a letter a while ago, and I should like to quote a portion of that letter today. I said:
-but I would like to have discussed this recent problem that has arisen relative to immigrants versus local miners.
As I stated in the house when speaking on this subject on Friday last-
This letter is dated February 29, 1960.
-I have seen arguments both pro and con in our newspapers, and I am not in a position at the present time to say who is right and who is wrong. However, I do know of two particular cases which caused me considerable concern. If there are any reasons why these two men should not be hired I would like to know, if only for my personal and confidential information. One, of course, I have already discussed with you, Mr. Leo Gagnon. In fact I might say it was my understanding that that matter was settled when I first came down at the opening of this session. I have been told since that he went down to the Hollinger on Monday morning and received the same answer he had received previously "They would keep him in mind".

The other case is one involving Mr. Leo Lepine, who at the present time lives at 142 Dome avenue, South Porcupine, who according to the information I have, has been given what is commonly known as the run-around. He has six years mining experience, and he is only 36 years of age and is supposed to be a first class miner.
As I said previously, if there are reasons why these men should not be hired I have never been told. I would appreciate any light you can throw on this subject.
When I did not receive an answer to this letter I wrote again on March 28, 1960 and I said:
On checking my files I failed to find an answer to my letter of February 29.
Would you be kind enough to forward me another copy.
Needless to say, I have still to receive an answer to this letter. In the light of this fact I can only assume, Mr. Chairman, that these charges that we read in our newspapers are true. I know of cases where immigrants have been hired at the Hollinger mine when their only previous experience was that of store clerk or, in one case, an instructor at a technical school.
I should like to point out that our Minister of Labour has certainly had an embarrassing time this session in trying to solve all the unemployment problems. A situation such as this tends to confuse the unemployment issue and further embarrass the minister. The Minister of Citizenship and Immigration cannot escape scot-free in this instance because immigration, whether it comes directly through her office or-


The Deputy Chairman:: I am having a little difficulty trying to reconcile the hon. member's remarks with the resolution, especially the last few remarks that he has been making.


Murdo William Martin: Mr. Chairman, at the present time this committee is being asked to renew the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act. I would suggest that before the committee can come to a proper decision as to whether or not this act should be renewed, it should have as clear a picture as it is possible to have of the gold mining industry and its ramifications. This is the purpose of my remarks.
Another thing of which this committee should take full cognizance is the fact that these same companies I mentioned before, Hollinger Consolidated Gold Mines and McIntyre Porcupine Mines Limited, have from the year 1948 and up to March 1, 1959- another year has been added since I obtained these figures-received the following amounts under this act: Hollinger had received a total of $9,271,488.50 and McIntyre had received $5,704,781.82. During the 12 years which they were receiving that money, this total of over $15 million from the Canadian taxpayers, the


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Hollinger opened up the huge Ungava iron ore empire in Labrador and McIntyre is reported to have bought out Algoma Steel, the estate of the late Sir James Dunn in Sault Ste Marie.
Current rumour is that negotiation are under way now for a merger between these two mines. They are located adjacent to each other, one on each side of the highway. McIntyre recently had a large copper strike. I am told that they have 12 million tons of copper mapped out. The purpose of these negotiations would be to mill all the gold from McIntyre in the Hollinger mill and turn McIntyre into a copper mill, yet retain its identity as a gold mine so that the company could receive the gold subsidy.
These are some of the things that this committee could ascertain. These are some of the things that this committee should know before passing legislation of this kind. Are we getting value for our money? Are we spending it sensibly and in the best way we can or are a few smart operators putting it over the Canadian public There is no question in my mind but that many of the gold mines operating today would not be operating were it not for this act. In the main, I would say this is a good act and is one that has been very beneficial, particularly to my region of northern Ontario.
The Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act makes provision for inspectors to visit these mines to make sure that everything is as it should be. After considerable difficulty last year we discovered that not only had these mines never been inspected by a government inspector, but that there was no such person on the payroll. How do we know that everything is in order?
I would say, that one thing that should be given very prompt and very careful consideration is the matter of establishing secondary industries in our mining towns. We do not have to look any further than the recent disastrous effect of the drop in the market for uranium to see what the results can be for a town whose economy is based on mining. We have seen a modern city like Elliot Lake facing the possibility, unless something new is developed, of becoming a ghost town. The only difference between Elliot Lake and practically all the gold mining communities is that in the case of Elliot Lake this development only took five years, whereas in the case of the gold mining communities it may take 20, 40 or 100 years. The end result will be exactly the same.
I would say, Mr. Chairman, that this is a very urgent problem. If these communities are going to continue, then the government must renew this act. However, I repeat that in its
Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act present form it does not appear to be the answer. I say it is a simple matter for this government to get the knowledge that is required. We have been paying out for 12 years now at the rate of $12 million a year to accomplish a certain purpose. Are we accomplishing that purpose or is there a much better way of spending this money?
Mr. Van Horne:: I believe that the mining industry in Canada deserves every commendation on the part of Canadian citizens and of this government. I think any industry which has not only been able to survive but to increase its efficiency to the peak it has now attained, with some 18,000 employees, deserves a great deal of credit.
Under this particular act it is proposed to spend, I understand, something like $12 million a year in order to make sure that 18,000 employees still maintain their jobs. Of course there are other incidental benefits, extremely important as they may be, but the fact is that this government is going to continue to spend $12 million a year in order to keep 18,000 employees at work.
The gold mining industry itself has done a great deal to help itself. This recent action to permit the sale of gold bars, the question of having listed the one kilogram gold bar on the Toronto stock exchange and the increase in the purchase of gold bars in this country are making many people realize the important part that only gold can play in reflecting and keeping sound values in our dollar.
Furthermore, the export of gold is increasing in most countries of the world. Close to 6 per cent of the total United States reserves of gold went out of the United States in 1959; that is more than $1 billion worth. I feel, of course, that gold should and must be an export item. I think our government would be well advised to continue and to increase the efforts which it has been expending to promote the export of gold throughout the world.
The fact that the United States exported $1 billion of its reserves of gold in 1959 means that the United States has diminishing reserves of gold and is to some extent losing the freedom of movement in its fiscal position with regard to gold. The United States government either must raise the price of gold or run the risk of slackening all the more the gold standard which has fairly well been discarded.
I should like to present what I feel are one or two important problems. According to the information I am able to get through the dominion bureau of statistics, the Bank of Canada has in its reserves $1,800 million. Of this amount only $1 billion is represented in gold, the other $800 million being represented in long term and short term United
4232	HOUSE OF
Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act States securities and United States dollars. I feel that this government should give serious consideration to using gold for a large portion of the $800 million that is now represented in United States currency which in itself has not the value possessed by the Canadian gold reserves, dollarwise, nor are those values likely to equate themselves over the next few years.
We have the fact that gold mining is a very important industry, that the export of gold is being more and more practised by many countries, that the gold reserves of the Bank of Canada could be much greater, and also that world trade in the past 20 years has developed more than six times as fast as have the gold reserves of the free world. For all these reasons and many more which I will not mention this afternoon I feel that a thorough investigation should be made by means of a royal commission appointed to study the effect of subsidies with regard to all our mining activities.
As the Minister of Veterans Affairs will be able to point out, we have in eastern New Brunswick recently discovered minerals and mines that warrent development; but unless something is done to guarantee the prices and to encourage these industries to develop these mines, I greatly doubt whether those mines will be developed for many years to come.
I feel that the whole problem of the mining industry in Canada, not only with regard to gold but with regard to all other metals, should receive the serious consideration and the studies which a royal commission could provide. I am not trying to belittle the gold mining industry nor am I trying to give any impression that I am not wholeheartedly behind this resolution. However, I feel that this resolution in itself is not much more than a stopgap measure and that some serious thought and study should go into the problem of solving our mining problems in this country.


Douglas Mason Fisher: The first job I was given when I went to work in a gold mine was one that was most unpopular of all. It is called mucking out the sump. You have to get down in the drip and dirt, mucking over the boot, to keep it clear from all the things that come down the shaft. The unfortunate thing about mucking out is that it is a job that must always be carried on on a fairly regular basis. Otherwise the shaft fills up and the mine cannot work. It seems to me that the minister is performing the function today, through this resolution, of mucking out the sumps of the gold mining industry in the main. It is a task that must be done.


We have already had from a number of hon. members arguments that indicate that this legislation is no solution in itself. I want to speak about several aspects of the problem, one of which is something that has been touched on slightly by the hon. member for Timmins and to which I have directed the attention of the minister on previous occasions. I can make the point just as well to start with by reading a quotation from an article in the Toronto Star of last spring, wherein it was stated:
Criticism by C.C.F. member of parliament Douglas Fisher that the government hands out millions of dollars in cost-aid to gold mines with inadequate inspection of the mines is ill-founded, the two mining organizations commented.
That is the Canadian Metal Mining Association for one and the Ontario mining association for the other. The article continues:
"It is a pure cost inspection-the inspectors don't have to go underground," said Mr. Wansborough.
He is managing director of this association.
He said Mr. Fisher had confused the functions of a provincial mine inspector, who checks to see safe mining practices are used, and a federal inspector.
No mining company ever thought the cost-aid examination of a mine's accounts and records was lax, he said.
The mistake in this interpretation by Mr. Wansborough is that I was mistaken and mixed up the provincial and the federal functions. I think we have enough examples- I would mention the Jacques Cartier bridge situation-to make us realize that wherever the federal government is receiving or paying out revenue it is our duty to be suspicious of human nature and that we have to make sure about the safety of the funds the government is receiving and paying out.
I want to point out to the minister one matter. I do not know whether or not he will be introducing an amendment, but I should like to point out to him that in the original act-and I believe the situation still exists-which is chapter 95 of the Revised Statutes of Canada, 1952, the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act, section 6, provides as follows:
6. The Minister may, as a condition to the making of any payment to a person under this Act, require that person
(a) to permit any person authorized by the Minister in that behalf, at any reasonable time, to enter upon and examine the mine from which the gold in respect of which the payment is to be made is produced, and all works and premises in connection therewith and to have access to and to examine all books and records of that person relating to the production of gold from the mine and the cost of production thereof during any period relevant for the purposes of this Act,-
I would like the minister to explain to me how he can leave that wording in the act



[Stage Direction]
when spokesmen for the mining organizations say that some kind of underground inspection is necessary.
No one wants to throw harpoons just for the sake of harpooning the mining industry, but we all know the reputation that certain segments of the industry have for its stock promotion practices and other kind of deals. We know the reputation that sort of thing has on the security exchanges in the United States. It seems to me that the minister and his department are far too bland in paying out this immense sum now totalling over $130 million without going underground and examining the workings of the mines, especially in view of the fact that every miner I have talked to, in the main not educated men but skilled in their trade, in a gold mine receiving emergency gold mining assistance has always indicated that he believes from his knowledge, admittedly not technical or scientific, that low grading is going on.
In the face of this kind of argument, which may be a completely blind and stupid accusation, how the minister can go along without bothering to make the kind of inspection necessary is beyond me. We are paying out all this money. These mining promoters are always depicting themselves as great entrepreneurs, and they have done their share in that regard. But despite that, why should we accept these people when they are not making the kind of check and scrutiny they should make by going down underground and looking at their workings to make sure they are mining the mine in a way that they are not taking advantage of the government purse.
We have so many examples today where the government is handing out aid in various directions. There is the industry which I think the hon. member for Villeneuve spoke of and I think he will admit there has been a remarkable consolidation in the last ten years where more and more of these smaller prospects have been drawn into what you might call large corporate structures. I think of the Little Long Lac situation as an example of the way a group of people using one corporate organization have moved out and brought a whole bunch of other mines within their structure.
One of the obvious things one notes about any kind of tax deal today, especially a tax situation where mines in the first three years of their life are exempt from certain taxation imposts, is that we know that by consolidation of a going concern with one which is not going you can get certain tax deterioration allowances. That should make the government suspicious and I think rightly and
Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act justly suspicious. Why should we not be suspicious where money is involved, no matter what person or organization is concerned? Yet here there is a situation where a section is put into the act allowing underground inspection and the minister admits it is never carried out; all we have is an examination by a cost accountant. Probably there is no mine in Canada where there is any tomfoolery going on, but I believe we have every right to expect the minister to be suspicious of them all and to take the steps implied by the act to make sure we are not giving money to mines which do not deserve it. I would certainly be interested to know whether the minister would consider receiving any amendments that would cut out this portion of section 6 of the act, if this section is of no use at all.
I was interested in another point which was brought up by some people who correspond with me, namely the position of the shareholders of a number of these companies that take advantage of the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act. These companies take advantage of the act and yet never pay dividends; at least, many of them have never paid dividends since they became involved in these corporate consolidations. Again the great example here is Little Long Lac.
A shareholder today theoretically has a form of democratic control in that as a shareholder he can go to a meeting and make his point. But we all know that in effect in most corporate organizations today you have to be a very major shareholder to have any influence in this kind of situation. I think the minister will admit that there is hardly a gold mine today receiving cost statements or benefits from the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act where the little shareholder would really have any voice at all. More and more we get the situation where giants such as Hollinger, McIntyre, Rio Tinto and No-randa hold big blocks of shares in many of these smaller mines.
What position does this leave the smaller shareholder in, especially when looking at a company like Little Long Lac which is receiving emergency gold mining assistance through some of its subsidiaries? Some of these mines which have come under Little Long Lac control which once paid dividends are not paying them now despite the fact that they are getting more emergency gold mining assistance.
It seems to me that this example should point out reasons for being suspicious of the gold mining people. I do not say we should be any more suspicious of them than of anyone else who takes something from the public purse; but I certainly feel that if the minister
4234	HOUSE OF
Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act does not want to carry out or have his officials carry out the purpose of section 6 as set out in the act, and that if all the gold mines need is merely a cost inspection, he should let us know and we should wipe this part of the section out of the act. Why is it in there if a genuine inspection of the mine workings is not necessary? What is the contingency that keeps it on the books? I insist that the minister should be suspicious of everyone who receives funds from the federal treasury and suspicious to the extent of making absolutely sure there is no question of the integrity of the operation producing the figures which the minister's accountant goes to see.
I can certainly see situations arising every year where scandals brew up because it is apparent that the federal government and the provincial government concerned have not taken proper precautions to see that these scandals should not happen. How can the minister give an assurance when from the figures he has given us he is not carrying out what the act allows him to do? He says it is completely unnecessary. I think if the minister has that much faith in the gold mines and says that all you need is this cost inspection, then we should wipe that part of the section out of the act because it really serves no purpose at all.
Mr. Chairman, one point the hon. member for Timmins touched on-and this is the old refrain

was this. What is the long term solution to the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act? Many of these mines are going out of production. We see examples in the Red Lake mine field which are quite heartening. I understand from the hon. member who represents that area that only one mine is now receiving assistance.
William Moore Benidickson: All of them at one time.


Douglas Mason Fisher: The hon. member interjects and says that at one time all of them were. But we must give them credit for their technical abilities and the money they have poured in. They have gone deeper and opened up new zones, and Red Lake is much more a going camp. But you still have the situation, especially in a community like Timmins, where the whole life of the region is based on something which has this very shaky basis of emergency gold mine assistance. I certainly feel that we have not only the right but the duty to call for some long term measure. I think that is what the hon. member for Resti-gouche-Madawaska was suggesting, that we have to have some long term way of treating this gold mining situation.
The hon. member for Villeneuve speculated on the financial effects of the move of the

United States dollar to parity with the Canadian dollar. What is to be the situation if this trend towards parity keeps right on going past the even mark, and the Canadian dollar is at a discount to the United States dollar? Obviously certain sections of our industry would be overjoyed, because that would mean a real benefit to the pulp and paper industry, the shipping industry, the gold mining industry and the base metal industry. But what would be the effects in relation to this particular act? After all, this assistance is set up on a certain scale to assist mines in accordance with some kind of ratio or formula. If the United States dollar continues at a discount of three or four cents compared with the Canadian dollar-and this seems feasible in view of the shift which has taken place in the last two weeks-what adjustment does the minister contemplate, if any, in relation to the amount of assistance provided for the gold mines? I think we would be glad to hear from the minister on that score.
If the minister has already given the information, well and good, but as the hon. member for Villeneuve pointed out, the recent move in exchange rates is an asset to the gold mining industry. But if the trend continues, it is surely a case where the government might consider pulling in its horns and spending less money on emergency gold mining assistance. I should like to hear the minister's views on that situation. We must remember in connection with interest rates or anything of that kind that there are shifts and changes, and here we have a portent of a very significant shift which, I think, will be beneficial in the main but is it going to be beneficial to the taxpayers who are putting up this money?
I have in effect asked a number of questions of the minister, and I hope that later on when we have the bill before us we will have an opportunity of hearing from him on these points especially on the point raised in connection with section 6 and the provision which permits inspection of the workings of a mine. I would also like to have an explanation from the minister as to the technical problems involved. After all, as one who has worked underground, I know it is not easy to appreciate all that goes on in a mine unless you have bad news from a whole host of places. The factors are complicated, and I wonder if the minister is in the position of having staff who can carry out inspections of the actual workings of a mine which would confirm the audit he seems prepared to accept.
[Mr. Fisher.j


Hédard-J. Robichaud: Perhaps I might make a few brief remarks before this resoiution is passed. We have been asked to approve a resolution to extend the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act to cover the years 1961, 1962 and 1963.
I listened a few moments ago to the remarks made by the hon. member for Timmins. He referred to the fact that if this action were not taken by the government, ghost towns would replace the communities where gold mining is at present carried on. The present situation results from the good measures which were taken by the previous administration in order to prevent ghost towns replacing mining communities. I think this action should be set up as an example and as guidance to the present government especially so far as Springhill, Nova Scotia is concerned and particularly with regard to Elliot Lake, of which we have heard so much in this house in recent times.
The hon. member for Restigouche-Mada-waska referred to mining developments in northern New Brunswick. We all know that we have in northern New Brunswick one of the largest base metal potentials in Canada. Yet these deposits in the Bathurst area are receiving no attention whatever from the government. The only time we hear about them is when there is a federal or provincial election when there are indications that the mines will be reopened and that everything will be all right. That is what is happening in New Brunswick at the present time. I would urge the government to give our mining area the attention it deserves.
The manager of the Brunswick Mining and Smelting Company in an address at Bathurst a few days ago said the company will succeed in bringing those mines into production, but only after hard struggle and sweat. This is a case where the government should take into consideration the importance for the area of the development of these minerals. Instead of devoting its attention to this northern vision-and I am not against the development of the north-I think we should give first attention to areas which are already inhabited and where we have potentials such as exist in northern New Brunswick.


Mr. Peters:: Representing, as I do, one of the largest gold mining areas in Canada, I should be remiss if I did not take some part in the discussion of this particular resolution. I should like to make it very clearly understood that I am in favour of the extension of the provision of the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act and that I consider its extension necessary to the very life of the mining industry in my area.
79951-0-267
25, 1960	4235
Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act
Having said this, I should like to point out some of the things that are wrong with the act and suggest reasons why it does not serve the industry in the way which I think the originators of this act probably had in mind when they put it into effect. The mining industries of Canada, not only the gold mines but others, are always facing one problem or other. We have seen the gold mining industry facing problems that are very similar in their nature to the problems that are facing the mining communities of Elliot Lake, Bancroft and Uranium City. If you travel in the maritime provinces you will find that the problem in Springhill is no different from that which existed in Timmins and Kirkland Lake many years ago. This has been a perennial problem, not only in the gold mining industry but in the silver mining industry in my part of the country. Close to the turn of the century we saw the silver industry boom and bust, then repeat the process. People have waited for years and years for the day when silver would again reach a price at which the mines could be profitably operated. In this industry, without the benefit of any government assistance or government intervention, we have seen communities die and the people leave, and only those who are very hardy or very stubborn stay on. Then the time comes when the price of silver goes up again. The mines are relocated, and the industry goes on.
As a result of watching this process I have been interested in the long term results which have flowed from the provisions of the Emergency Gold Mining Act. I believe, as the hon. member for Restigouche-Madawaska said, that this was originally intended to be only a temporary measure. I am sure that members of parliament at that time were looking for a temporary and immediate solution to a problem with which they were faced in those years. Now, however, I think the time has come when the minister should amend the resolution before us in such a way as to take out the emergency part of the act, because it seeems to me that we are no closer to solving the problems in the gold mining industry today than we were when this act was first put into effect. If the act has accomplished what it was designed to let us make this assistance a permanent thing. The emergency aspect should be removed from the act and it could be made a regular subsidy.
If this were done other considerations would arise. If this method is satisfactory we could supply emergency assistance to other mining communities and make it possible to operate the mines and maintain the municipalities dependent on them. If the method is

Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act satisfactory let us apply it to uranium and have a uranium mining emergency assistance act which would solve problems such as those in Elliot Lake. This is not quite as ridiculous as it sounds-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


William Arnold Peters: I have talked to the people at Elliot Lake. They want the mines there to continue operating. We could stockpile uranium. The people of Elliot Lake do not care whether or not the product is sold immediately. I am sure that the hon. member for Gloucester would also urge that this assistance be extended to coal mining and the subventions could be removed.
If the act were extended in this form Canadians would be assured that the money was well spent in accomplishing what it was intended to. When the bill comes before us we should remove the words "emergency assistance".
I do not think this legislation accomplished what it was hoped it would accomplish. Gold mining areas cannot compete with the wages paid in other mining communities. Gold mining towns are reluctant and unable to improve services because of the tax structure. They have been unable to attract secondary industries. When the legislation was enacted I am sure it was intended not only to assist and maintain gold mining communities but to aid in the shift in dependence on the part of the communities from gold mining to secondary industry. It is more important than ever before that we now give close consideration to what the act should accomplish.
In the future demands from mining companies to stay in business will increase. Emergency assistance will be requested by the mining industries as it was by the gold mining industry in the days when it petitioned parliament for assistance. Would it not be reasonable for the uranium industry to ask for a subsidy to carry it over a temporary period during which the world demand for uranium does not equal the available supply? In perhaps 12 or 15 years I am convinced that the demand for uranium will tax the facilities of the industry. If successful, this act could be extended to Elliot Lake and other mining communities.
The other day when the Minister of Trade and Commerce stood up and said-


Charles Edward Rea: Order. I must remind the hon. member that this legislation refers to gold mines only. The Chair has been lenient with the hon. gentleman.


William Arnold Peters: I think it would be proper in amending the act to discuss extending it to give assistance to other forms of mining.


Charles Edward Rea: Order. The Chair can go only by the rules laid down. Any discussion must be relevant to this bill.


Mr. Smallwood:: The hon. gentleman is not talking about divorces now.


William Arnold Peters: A few years ago the Ontario legislature set up a committee under the chairmanship of Mr. Knox a professor at Queen's University to investigate the gold mining industry to which committee many Ontario organizations presented briefs. The united steelworkers of America representing many gold mining employees pointed out that there are alternatives to E.M.G.A. Some of these proposals were published at the time of the publication of the committee's report. One alternative mentioned was that of increasing the price of gold. That was not possible at that time but the alternative becomes increasingly possible through the change in the value of the Canadian dollar and its relationship to the United States dollar. The union also recommended that the government press on the international market for an increase in the price of gold through the international monetary fund. The present Minister of Finance expressed himself as being in favour of this proposal before assuming his portfolio but has not mentioned the matter since. The union also pointed out that there were other ways of subsidizing the industry through giving consideration to a reduction in the taxes payable to the municipalities. The second one which is evident throughout the whole mining industry is the wages paid to the workers in the industry.
As I said at the beginning, Mr. Chairman, we are interested in the maintenance and continuation of this subsidy. I agree with the hon. member for Timmins that other hon. members in the house have continually given the views of the mining industry. There is nothing wrong with that. I worked in the industry for 15 years and negotiated and bargained with the industry. From my experience with the industry's point of view, conditions that would satisfy the industry are not necessarily in the best interests of either the community or of the workers in the industry. Not always are the two interests analogous.
It seems to me that when we first set up this emergency gold mining assistance what we had in mind was that we were going to solve the problems of the community and of those people in the community who were dependent on mining the natural resources of the country. This is what we will have in mind when we attempt to solve the problems of the uranium mines. This is a case where we have let companies come
l,	MAY
into an area and develop the natural resources of that area, but we have exercised very little control over them. In the gold mining industry we have never insisted that they put away a small amount of depreciation for their workers in their later life. We have never given any indication that we want them to take part of the contribution we make in the form of emergency gold mine assistance and place it into funds for the retirement of workers. We have not made payments of emergency gold mining assistance contingent on the development of secondary industries and the financing of those industries in the gold mining com-munites. It is with this thought in mind that I draw the minister's attention to this part of the program. It would be advantageous to eliminate the word "emergency" and just call the legislation "gold mining assistance act". The subsidy would be paid on a continuous basis and we should see that secondary industry is brought into the mining communities.
I agree entirely with the hon. member for Timmins that the town of Timmins and its people are no farther along the road to developing secondary industries to take over when the gold mining industry is finished than it was years ago. Gold mining would have been finished and those communities would have been ghost towns now if it had not been for the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act. The day the mines are finished the camp is going to be in exactly the same position that it was in when the emergency gold mining assistance was brought into being. The communities are going to be left dependent on an industry which no longer exists. It would not exist today if it were not for this emergency assistance because the price of the product is not sufficient to carry the industry. It will be non-existant in the future because there will be no industry left. It seems to me one of our prime concerns should be to develop other industries and to look toward the day when the industry is no longer able to carry on and to provide for the community because the mines will have been worked out.
The point raised by the hon. member for Port Arthur is an important one. I am sympathetic with the minister. He inherited the department of mines from former ministers whom I did not consider to be competent. The problems facing him are not of his making. When we were discussing the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys last year in relation to emergency gold subsidies we ran into a great deal of trouble with 79951-0-267J
25, 1960	4237
Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act respect to the wording of the various departments. When I was asking questions of the mines division which I thought had to do with mines and therefore would be responsible for emergency gold mining assistance I found it was not the mines department that handled the matter, it was the mineral resources branch, or something of that nature. Inspectors do not come under the mines branch; they are borrowed from northern affairs or some other department. The minister shakes his head. I never found out whether there was one inspector available to do the checking if it was necessary.
The minister will recall that I sent him instances of two or three stopes in a particular mine which I had been informed had been closed up and had been closed up for some time. In those stopes gold was running at several thousand dollars a ton, but never more than a few tons had been removed from them, and then only to maintain a certain grade from the mine. I will not argue with those who say this is good housekeeping. Maybe it is; maybe that is the way you should operate a mine, but I think those conditions exist to a great extent. If there were a large number of those particular stopes I am sure we would want to have inspectors there to see that the provisions of the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act were complied with and that the figures presented to the auditors of the Department of Finance and the treasury authorities were such as to indicate the actual physical conditions available underground which could be ascertained from the books.
I have worked in enough different types of stopes to know that you cannot go down a mine and take a look at the face and estimate how the ore will run. This can only be done by a physical assay. When the mines themselves find that the amount of gold being extracted from ore is not in keeping with what their underground reports indicate they recheck and find out where the mistakes are and that is the only way it can be done. It can only be done by an examination of the reserves and the value of those reserves.
I am not prepared to debate which mines are high grading and which mines are low grading; I think there are mines doing both and I think it can be successfully argued by the mines that this may be good housekeeping and it may be the best way of operating the mines. They may be able to tell me and others, as the Northern Miner would indicate, that this is in the best interests of the people of Canada; but I suggest, Mr. Chairman, if we are to pay subsidies to them it may be in the best interests of the people who own and operate the particular mine but it may not be in the best interests of the mine itself.
4238	HOUSE OF COMMONS
Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act
I agree with the hon. member for Port Arthur that if this section of the act is not going to be complied with, if it is not going to be given any consideration, then we should remove it and take away the threat of an inspection at some time because, to the best of my knowledge-the minister can correct me if I am wrong-there are no inspectors in the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys who have ever done any inspection underground; they have never done any sampling or made any tests in connection with emergency gold mining assistance or checked any particular mine in this respect.
There would not seem to be much point in bringing particular cases to the attention of the department if they have nobody to check on them. I have many friends who have worked many years in some of those particular mines who know the stopes. When you have worked in one particular stope and have worked there for two or three years every working day of those years it is not too difficult to recall the value at which the stope was running and the reasons why it was closed down. If a stope runs at $1,000 or $2,000 per ton, then I am quite sure a miner will remember that, just as he would remember if that stope were only running at $5 of $6 a ton and he was in danger of being moved out of that stope every time the company took a sample.
Those are the considerations that I believe must be kept in mind. I am going to trespass a little on your ruling, Mr. Chairman, but it seems to me we are going to be looking toward this Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act more and more in the next few months or the next few years to ascertain whether or not it has done the job for the communities and for the people it was supposed to do. We shall be looking at what has been accomplished under this act in connection with other minerals as well as gold. If we find that the act has served the needs of the people it was meant to serve, then I think it has done so very cheaply.
However, Mr. Chairman, I believe that when we look at the basic problems this act was supposed to solve we will find it has done nothing to correct them. These basic problems will eventually have to be faced. One of these problems will be turning those communities that are dependent upon a primary industry into communities which have secondary industries. I would strongly suggest that we give consideration to amending this act to permit part of the money to be paid to subsidize other industries to go into the gold mining communities. Think what it would mean if we could give secondary industries the opportunity to come in and instead of
[Mr. Peters.1
paying $12 million in the form of gold mining assistance we could pay that amount in subsidies for secondary industries.
I suggest that these industries would not even have to consider the effect of such items as three years free taxes, communities already established, an existing labour force and municipal considerations such as sewers, water and other things. If we gave this $12 million and divided it up amongst the industries it would go a long way and you would see industries leaving Toronto overnight. This might be a much better long term solution to the problem of the mining industry than the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act has been. However, while we are giving this form of assistance I should like to see the government set up a new branch that would engage in planning for our natural resources so that we could get a much better distribution of our money and a much better distribution of industry. In this way we would not have the problems we have to face with this particular act, and our problems might be solved in a much better manner.
In closing, Mr. Chairman, I might say that the people of northern Ontario are completely dependent upon this emergency gold mining assistance for their livelihood. They need it. They would like it increased. They would like the act made a permanent feature of government policy so that they could make plans. I would suggest that many of the mines, particularly the small ones such as the one in which I worked in Timmins for many years, do give consideration to their employees. The small mine in which I worked was concerned with the conservation of the mine and worked very hard in an effort to get as much life out of that mine as it was possible to do. This has not been true of some of the other mines which I have had the opportunity of examining over the years. Many of them were more interested in piling up dividends than they were in conserving the mineral and extending the life of the mine. They were much more interested in buying steel companies and other things, and in this way they did not serve the needs of the communities in the way this act provided. They served the needs of the few, as the hon. member for Port Arthur indicated, by gobbling up these little mines that were not quite able to look after themselves.
I hope that the minister will give some consideration to these problems. They are very real problems in northern Ontario. If he did not believe that this act was serving the needs of the communities and the people dependent on this industry, then I am quite sure he would not have asked for the extension of this act. However, he has seen fit to

ask for this extension and I hope he will give some consideration to making it more successful in extending the life of our communities.


Mr. Regier:: Mr. Chairman, in the limited number of minutes at my disposal, I am going to support this resolution while, at the same time, expressing some very grave reservations about this act. I have to support the resolution because I realize there would be an emergency if this assistance were to be discontinued. I think there is an emergency situation, even after 12 years. However, when we take the taxpayers' money and use it to subsidize an enterprise we must, I feel, give very serious consideration to the effects of what we are doing. If we pay a subsidy to the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation or a subsidy for the maintenance of railway transportation in Canada or the post office, that is one matter. We have to pay these subsidies because those are institutions serving the public interest as a whole. Those are institutions which, apparently, are unable to survive otherwise and we need them.
However, when we pay a subsidy for the mining of gold or coal or for any other industrial endeavour, then I think we have to pay very close attention to the effects of what we are doing. Only the other day we heard the Minister of Agriculture admit, in effect, that through the government's purchases of pork bellies Canada Packers was* able to clean up a profit of over $2 million.


Mr. Harkness:: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order; I never admitted or said any such thing. The hon. member is putting words in my mouth and talking about something I did not even mention.


Erhart Regier: On the point of order, may I say that the minister informed us that Canada Packers had purchased over seven million pounds of pork, and they had purchased it for-


Jacques Flynn: Order; I would ask hon. members to come back to the resolution before the committee.


Erhart Regier: This was, in my opinion, very relevant. I was attempting to underline the fact that we have to be very careful to make sure we know what we are doing when we pay a subsidy to private industry in Canada. I was pointing out what had happened in the case of agriculture, and I am afraid that similar things have happened in the case of the subsidy under the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act
I hope the minister can, when he replies, bring us up to date on the negotiations that we were given to understand by the Minister
25, 1960	4239
Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act of Finance were under way. Some representations were being made to the international authorities to see whether or not we could get an increase in the price of gold. If we were able to obtain that increase it would eliminate the need for this legislation. I would hope that we would be able to receive a report on what headway is being made in this regard. I should like also to have the minister report on how far the reduction in the premium on the Canadian dollar is going to go toward relieving us of the necessity of subsidizing the gold mining industry. As the minister knows, there has recently been a great reduction on the premium on the Canadian dollar. This reduction ought at least to make it a little bit easier on the public purse in keeping the gold mining industry going.
I express another reservation on the operation of this act in that, as other hon. members have rightly pointed out, it has done little to diversify the economy of these communities. Up to now we have spent or we are nearing the stage where we will have spent some $10,000 for every individual worker affected. I feel that is an extremely high price to pay by the public when the cost of investment per worker in establishing an alternative industry runs only to between $10,000 and $20,000 per employee. I wonder how much headway we really have made and whether we would not have been wiser in the first instance, some 12 years ago, to have arrived at the decision that if public funds will be used, they will be used to diversify the economy in these mining communities so that they would not be completely and solely dependent on the mining of gold. In our opinion, over a long period now we have been assisting the gold mining industry-and rightly so-but we have failed completely to diversify the economy of these communities.
While I agree that we are obliged to continue with this type of assistance, I believe that accompanying it real efforts ought to be made to establish other industries in these communities. I have grave reservations that, in the implementation of this legislation, we have adequately protected the public interest of Canada. It is the responsibility of the government of the day, when it is spending the taxpayers' money, not only to meet the emergency situation but also to make plans whereby the emergency is finally going to disappear and whereby the communities' interests and the public's long term interests will be better served. All this legislation amounts to is a continuation of something that hitherto has not provided a solution. It
4240	HOUSE OF
Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act has been emergency legislation and yet it has extended over a 12-year period.
With these observations I should like to repeat that this kind of subsidy has no comparison with a subsidy to the C.B.C., the railways, the post office or some other national need. This is a subsidy that ought to be granted with great reservations. We should like to hear a progress report from the Minister of Finance or the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys as to what headway is being made toward obtaining a higher price per ounce for gold. The Minister of Finance is now here in his place. I am extremely happy to see him in his seat. I hope I did not misrepresent him when I said earlier that he has on some occasions in this chamber given us, or at least seemed to give us a slight hint that he was negotiating to obtain a higher price for Canadian gold. We should very much like to have a report on that matter as well as a report on what influence the reduction in the premium on the Canadian dollar has and also what plans the government has in mind for the establishment of alternative industries in the gold mining communities so that the public interest can be served as well as the emergency needs of these communities.


William Moore Benidickson: Is the Minister of Finance going to report, as requested, perhaps upon the three conferences he has attended of the international monetary fund and on any approaches he has made with respect to the possibility of a change in the price of gold?


Mr. Fleming (Eglinton):: No.


William Moore Benidickson: Is the minister's answer no?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Yes.


Paul Comtois: To start with, Mr. Chairman, I wish to express my gratitude to the hon. member for Villeneuve. He has given this committee practical suggestions which are the fruit of his experience in the mining industry. I can assure him that his suggestions will be carefully studied and considered.
I would not say the same thing about what the hon. member for Port Arthur has said. He has shown this afternoon a good deal of ignorance-if that word "ignorance" is permissible in this committee; perhaps lack of knowledge might be a better term-in assuming that my department does not take the necessary steps to look after the subsidies that must be disbursed in the various gold mining communities. He stated very clearly that we did not take the trouble to make an inspection or an underground inspection. This is absolutely untrue. When the hon. member makes that statement he is absolutely wrong;


and that is what he said this afternoon. I expected such a question to arise and I am prepared with the answer.
The matter of inspection procedures under which our inspection engineers carry out their duties has been raised again by the hon. member for Port Arthur. I would refer the hon. member to a statement which I made in this house on July 17, 1959 and which is reported on page 6213 of the House of Commons debates.
An inspection engineer annually visits each mine or operation receiving assistance for the purpose of ascertaining the exploration and development expenditures which will be classified expenditures for inclusion in allowable costs on a deferred basis, and for reporting upon the operations conducted at the mine in so far as they affect the payment of assistance, including underground inspections where such inspections are necessary. That is clear and I hope the hon. member for Port Arthur will understand it for good. From the information so obtained an analysis of the application from each mine is made for the purpose of assisting the audit services division, office of the comptroller of the treasury, in correlating items of cost and mining plans.
I would add that inspections required for administration of the act are conducted by competent mining engineers with a number of years of experience in the mining industry and who are employed in the mineral resources division of my department. At the same time I wish to remind the hon. member for Timiskaming that we have very good and experienced engineers in the department. They are in the mineral resources division which is part of my department as well as in the mines branch.
There is no difference between them. It does not matter if they are under the chief of the mines branch or under the minerals resources division; it is the same thing after all. We have experienced men who go underground and make the necessary inspections and then make their reports. They are well qualified to do the job and they do it at any time. I remember that last year I suggested the hon. member for Timiskaming give me specific examples of something which he mentioned might be happening in some mines but I am still waiting for details.


William Arnold Peters: I sent them down.


Paul Comtois: I am sorry, Mr. Chairman; the hon. member says he gave me some but I never received them. Any time we have a complaint or a specific example drawn to our attention where specific companies

are named we are ready to have our inspectors, very experienced men, go anywhere at any time. That is very clear.
The hon. member for Port Arthur spoke about the United States dollar. Canadian gold producers have received an average of less than $35 per fine ounce for gold sold to the mint in each of the last eight years and have received an average of less than $34 per ounce in each of the last three years. In 1959 of the 40 lode gold mines receiving assistance 29 had operating costs greater than $35 per ounce and 30 mines had operating costs greater than $34 per ounce of gold produced.
The decrease in the premium on the Canadian dollar in United States funds in recent weeks has aided the gold mining industry in common with Canadian exporters. The mint buying price had increased to $34.38 per ounce for the week of May 16 to 20, 1960. The price of gold has not yet reached a par value of $35 in Canadian funds. Any problems which may result from a reduction of the value of the Canadian dollar in terms of United States funds will be taken up at the appropriate time.
The hon. member for Port Arthur, who I see is now back in the committee, mentioned the matter of low grading. This is not the first time the matter has been brought up in the house. I see from Hansard that every year a member of the C.C.F. party speaks about the low grading question. I will give him my answer again and will be as patient as he is in putting his question.
The subject of low grading has been raised on previous occasions and it would appear that it is not yet appreciated that the practice is a highly improbable one for practical reasons. Perhaps the most important of these reasons is that a deliberate reduction in the grade of ore milled by a gold mine operator for the purpose of increasing the amount of assistance payable to him is a highly unprofitable move. The reduced amount of gold produced in such a case results in a greater loss of revenue from the sale of gold than is represented by the increase in the amount of assistance payable. This view of the matter is substantiated by the fact that there were 13 gold mines in Canada in 1959 which were not eligible for assistance payments under the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act for the sole reason that their cost of production was less than $26.50 per ounce. If low grading is as profitable as the hon. member appears to think, it would be logical for these mines to reduce the grade of ore milled to the point where their costs would be greater than $26.50 per ounce and so become eligible for assistance. The fact that they have not done so
25, 1960	4241
Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act indicates that economic factors stronger than the influence of payments of assistance have governed the decision as to the grade of ore to be milled.
May I state again that my department and the Department of Finance are vigilant in ensuring that moneys are paid only after a thorough investigation of the cost of operation of every gold mining company which is eligible for assistance. Effective checks on the operation of mining practices followed by a mine are obtained from the examination and correlation of mine plans from the engineering department and the costs applicable to the various categories of mining operations from the accounting department. Again I declare that our inspectors, our engineers, our qualified engineers, go underground as often as it is necessary.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I wonder if the minister would permit a question. Did he take a look at the return which was given to me in answer to some questions I asked a little over a year ago, which return indicated that these inspectors were at some of these mines a total of half a day? How can you carry out any kind of inspection that the minister is talking about on such brief visits? This is what made me suspicious, the very information which the minister tabled which indicated that these inspectors were not engineering or mine inspectors at all but merely accountants who were checking the records. That was the only conclusion I could draw from the return which was filed. I am sorry it is not here, but I insist that my interpretation was a fair and correct one from the information the minister gave. That information indicated that inspectors do not visit the workings of the mine and that all you can possibly have from the kind of inspections indicated in the return is nothing more than a mere accountancy procedure.


Mr. Comlois:: Again I state that we make all the inspections, inspections of the books as well as underground inspections when necessary. As far as-


Douglas Mason Fisher: Mr. Chairman-


Paul Comtois: I am sorry, but I have the floor and I wish to finish what I have to say.
Reference has been made to section 6 of the act. I must remind the hon. member that section 6 of the act is permissive. It does not create an obligation to inspect underground unless the situation warrants it. Our inspection engineers do go underground and visit the mills when there is a need to do so, but it would be impractical, costly and unwarranted to inspect all mines underground and mills. That means that when we have to do it and we have a report that something
4242	HOUSE OF
Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act is not adequate or we have some doubt, then we have the inspectors and the engineers go underground.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I might point out to the minister that the statement I read by Mr. Wans-brough made the point-I understand the minister said I did not understand it and I was ignorant about it-that it was the provinces which looked after the underground aspects. The federal government, as Mr. Wansbrough said, was merely a cost accountancy check, or something to that effect.
There is something haywire here if the return which the minister's own department files indicates that the inspectors have not the time actually to visit the underground workings of all the mines in Ontario drawing emergency gold mining assistance for a period of two years. Surely if that is the case this part of section 6, as I pointed out to him, must be totally unnecessary unless the minister can assure me that this particular two-year period was most unusual and that really this right of the minister's department to go down and actually check the mine needs to be retained for supporting purposes.
But if we go by Mr. Wansbrough-if we go by what the minister's registers indicate -there is no need at all for this section. It seems to me that the minister is changing his ground as compared with last year. This year he is telling us that inspections are carried out by engineers and that on occasions they do go underground. All I can tell him is-


Joseph-Roland Comtois: If Mr. Wansbrough has
stated that we do not make any underground inspections, Mr. Wansbrough is wrong.


William Moore Benidickson: The minister has said, I think, that these inspections were carried out from time to time as needed. Can the minister indicate what staff he has available for the whole of Canada in this respect?


Joseph-Roland Comtois: I think we have five or six engineers in the mineral resources division available to do this work, and we can have more if necessary.


William Arnold Peters: In checking this year's estimates under the mineral resources division I do not see any engineers listed, nor do I see any inspectors listed. I think this is the situation I found last year, also. If I may, I should like to read what the minister said on July 17, 1959 as reported on page 6213 of Hansard:
In answer to a question by the hon. member from Port Arthur, it was stated that the drawings and plans of the underground workings of every gold mine were not checked with the actual workings. I should like to point out that a limited underground visit would produce only superficial checks on the completeness of the mine plans. Such an


inspection would be of no benefit unless a check survey of the underground workings were made and the grades and quantities of ore mined from the various working places were substantiated. Such a procedure would duplicate the work of the engineering staff at each mine, and would require a duplication of their number as inspectors. It is for this reason that direct examination of underground workings is undertaken only where unusual conditions exist. Far more effective checks on the operation and mining practices followed by a mine are obtained by the examination and correlation of mine plans from the engineering department, and the costs applicable to the various categories of mining operations from the accounting department.
Then the minister went on to make a statement similar to that which he made today to the effect that the mines themselves had an interest in seeing that costs did not go up. Later on, on the same page, the minister had this to say:
I would like to assure the hon. member that the inspection and examination of mine accounts and plans submitted by companies applying for assistance payments are thorough, and that payments are made only in conformity with the provisions and intent of the act.
The hon. member for Timiskaming raised the same point, and I think this answers both hon. members. But if it were reported that some special investigation was desirable, we would be happy to do anything we could to find out if there is a nigger in the woodpile, as one might say.
On questioning the minister with regard to the department of mines, which I still maintain should handle the mines, I drew from the bon. gentleman the information that there were no inspections at all-that inspections could be made' provided staff was borrowed from one department or another. Now the minister says the place from which staff are borrowed is the mineral resources division, but reading the estimates of that department for this year I find, as I say, no provision made for either engineers or inspectors.


William Moore Benidickson: What page is that on? Where are the details?


William Arnold Peters: Page 263. I can find no engineers and no inspectors. The minister, as reported on page 6220 of Hansard of last year for July 17 made reference to this matter when we were discussing item 202 of the estimates, the administration, operation and maintenance of the mines branch. If I may, I will read the appropriate passage:


William Arnold Peters: I should like to ask the minister how many officials he has capable of doing factual inspections in mines.


Paul Comtois: If it is proved that we have factual inspections to be made, we have engineers to do the Job.


William Arnold Peters: Are they listed under this vote in the details at page 275?


Paul Comtois: Yes, Mr. Chairman. If we do that work we have to take them out of some other field, but the answer is yes.


William Arnold Peters: I should think it would take a practical as well as a competent engineer to do the

underground surveys that are necessary if you were checking a particular place. I am interested to know in what part of the mines division you have these mine inspectors. The minister has said that some inspection has been done in the past. Which of these officials have done that inspection?


Paul Comtois: Up to now when some inspection was to be made we had engineers from the mineral resources division. We have another group of engineers in the mines branch. We can have some available for any purpose for which we need them.


William Arnold Peters: Is the minister saying that under this mines branch there are no inspectors at the present time?


Paul Comtois: No, I did not mean that.


William Arnold Peters: Would the minister indicate to me what section they are under, or where they appear on the list?


Paul Comtois: Maybe I misunderstood the question. We have no engineers or inspectors for that purpose at the mines branch at the present time. However, if they were needed in the mines branch we could divert some inspectors from the mineral resources branch to the mines branch in order to make some reports or some inspections.


William Arnold Peters: Is the minister saying that in the years we have had emergency gold mining assistance we have never had attached to this branch any inspectors for checking? If not, maybe he would explain to me where the auditors under this division come? As I understood it, there were two cnecks. One was an auditor's check that was done in the offices of the mining companies, using the books and data available in the offices. Then if there was any question with regard to this check they did the actual check or the visual resurvey.


Jacques Flynn: I am not deciding that the hon. member is reading improperly, but I have an idea that these questions might be more efficiently discussed when the estimates of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys come before us for consideration.


William Arnold Peters: I agree. The only reason I raise this question now is because the minister said we did not understand the situation and that we were being dishonest in raising this matter. He even implied that we were very ignorant. I do not intend to argue about that. Perhaps we are. Possibly, when discussing this question last year, I was looking at the wrong department, but I am now looking at the mineral resources division and, as I say, I see no provision for either inspectors or engineers.


Paul Comtois: On a point of order, may I call the attention of the hon. member to the fact that in our estimates of this year, as well as those of last year our inspectors are classified as scientific officers. The hon. member will find the answers to his questions in this years estimates on pages 262 and 263 of the blue book for 1960-61.


William Arnold Peters: Could I ask the minister in which one of these categories-there are 21 people involved-these people fall? There are five or six-
79951-0-268
Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act


Paul Comtois: Those details might be discussed at the time my estimates are under consideration.


Murdo William Martin: Is it not a fact that the statute cannot be discussed under the details of the estimates and that anything pertaining to the present amendment must be dealt with now?


Jacques Flynn: I agree, but the administration of the act, if the amendment is adopted, will be a proper subject of discussion under the estimates. At this time, strictly speaking, the only relevant matter would be whether we should continue the application of this act for three years. The problem of administration does not strictly come into the discussion.


Joseph-Roland Comtois: Mr. Chairman, with your permission may I add that when we deal with my estimates under the mineral resources division this matter can be discussed and explained. We cannot discuss the statute but we can discuss the amount provided for the administration.


William Moore Benidickson: On the point of order, Mr. Chairman, surely it would be relevant when we are asked to approve in principle that this act be extended to pursue the question of whether or not an obligation is being fulfilled on the part of the companies with respect to the safety of the employees if these vast sums of money are to continue to be spent.


Jacques Flynn: I agree. I would say that the detailed examination of the personnel and so forth could be more efficiently dealt with when the estimates come before the committee. I am not asking the hon. member not to pursue it if he wants to do so but I am merely suggesting it would be more efficiently done when the estimates come before us.


Douglas Mason Fisher: The minister will remember that last year I sent him a complaint from a man who had worked in Ontario gold mines supporting the suspicions I had about the operations of these mines and asked the minister for a comment. I received in reply a three-page letter which I thought answered rather well the points brought up by this man. I sent the letter on to him and in reply he stated that one paragraph of the minister's letter indicated a degree of self-satisfaction that was not fitting for a minister of the crown. I will read this paragraph from the minister's letter, if I may. The letter is dated August 4, 1959 and the pertinent paragraph reads:
With respect to the administration of the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act, I have satisfied myself that the procedures under which our inspection engineers carry out their duties provide full

Feeds Act
information on the operation of mines necessary to ensure that the payment of assistance is in accordance with the provisions of the act.
The man wrote back saying he still thinks it is possible, in the example he gave, for mines to get away with the sort of thing about which I was talking. I wish to make it clear that in my remarks I have never intimated that this was so but the suspicion is there. For this reason I wonder if the minister would consider allowing a committee-perhaps the committee on mines, forests and waters-to have the inspectors who carry out that task come before it and straighten out this matter so that we could be completely satisfied in our minds that the inspection is adequate and that no possibilities of skulduggery exist. I think that would be the simplest way out of it and if we were satisfied it would probably end our discussion of the matter.


Murdo William Martin: Would the minister give an answer to this question. Everyone who has spoken has agreed that the act is both good and necessary but there are always those who seek to abuse these things and that is what is bothering me, other hon. members of the committee and many engaged in the gold mining industry. Without an opportunity to examine the inspectors I believe the fear in the minds of the people will increase.
Is the minister giving any consideration to the suggestion I made earlier today with regard to establishing a committee comprising federal, provincial and municipal representatives, representatives of the mining authorities and union representatives of the employees in order to look into the matter and allay the fears expressed today.


Joseph-Roland Comtois: Mr. Chairman, I have no objection at all to considering this proposal.
Resolution reported and concurred in.
Mr. Comlois thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. C-64, to amend the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.


FEEDS ACT
Douglas Scott Harkness: the second reading of Bill No. S-27, an act to control and regulate the sale of feeds.
He said: Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this bill is to control and regulate the sale of feeds for livestock. It is to be known as the feeds act and, when proclaimed, will replace the present Feeding Stuffs Act.

The first legislation dealing with livestock feeds was enacted in 1909. It was then known as the commercial feeding stuffs act. That act was administered by the department of inland revenue and later by the department of health. In 1920 that act was replaced by the present Feeding Stuffs Act and administration was placed in the Department of Agriculture. The basic provisions of the legislation are to require livestock feeds to be registered, to be labelled to show their ingredients and to meet certain standards of quality and safety.
The last major revision of the Feeding Stuffs Act was in 1937. Since then there have been numerous advances in animal nutrition, in feed manufacturing and distribution and in methods of feed testing which necessitate amending the legislation to keep it in conformity with present practices.
Many of the detailed provisions which now require changing are contained in the act itself. It was felt desirable, in order to permit more ready adjustment of the legislation to changing technical conditions, to revise the act so as to permit many of the detailed requirements with respect to registration, standards, packaging, labelling and analysis to be established by regulation.
The bill now before parliament in no way changes the basic provisions of the present act. It does, however, delete from the act proper many of the detailed technical requirements and provides for them to be established by regulations of the governor in council. In this respect, as hon. members will recall, it follows the pattern used in revising, in recent years, several other statutes administered by the Department of Agriculture.
The house may be interested in a few of the technical changes which have taken place over recent years in the preparation of livestock feeds which necessitate the revision of this statute.
One of the most important has been the introduction into feeds of therapeutic agents for the treatment of sick animals. The authority of the present act is inadequate to insure that in all instances the use of such therapeutic agents is permitted only when there is adequate evidence that they are efficacious, that they leave no harmful residues and that suitable directions for use, and cautions, are carried on the label. Under the bill revising the act there is provision for regulations which will make it possible to keep the requirements with respect to such matters adjusted to changing conditions and practices.
There have been important developments in the use of minerals in animal nutrition

which have led to the incorporation of additional minerals in livestock feeds. The Feeding Stuffs Act contains requirements for standards and guarantees for some mineral feeds but several revisions are now necessary. Under the provisions of the bill there is authority to prescribe these requirements by regulation.
The act now requires all livestock feeds to be registered annually by the department. Twenty years ago there were only about 3,000 livestock feeds registered. As an illustration of the growth and increasing complexity of livestock feeds, the number this year will be over 10,000. This necessitates the streamlining and simplification of registration procedures. The bill will permit these to be established by regulation.
These remarks are probably adequate to explain to the house the purpose of the bill and I will, of course, be pleased to elaborate on the detailed provisions when we get into committee.


Mr. Forgie:: Is it the intention of the minister to refer this bill to the committee on agriculture or to the committee of the whole house?


Douglas Scott Harkness: To the committee of the whole house.


William Moore Benidickson: Mr. Speaker, this bill was introduced in the other place and was carefully examined, as we all know, by a committee of that house, their committee on natural resources. I, of course, do not feel qualified to discuss a technical matter of this kind. I am satisfied with the review that was made there. The only thing I should like to ask the minister is this. As he said, the number of registered feeds is very impressive and in consequence, as a result of the previous discussion, I wonder whether the minister would take the house into his confidence and indicate what kind of correspondence he may have had and the advocacy in the correspondence as the result of the public at large becoming familiar with his intention to supplant the Feeding Stuffs Act of 1937 with this new legislation.
It is indeed amazing to think that under the present act, which will be supplanted, registrations are of the number of 752 in regard to cattle feeds; 2,179 for hogs; 858 for turkeys, and so on. All these add up, I suppose, to the figure which the minister has indicated, namely some 10,000 separate registrations. This involves a great number of people in business and a great number who are feeding this stuff and are attracted to it. In closing the debate will the minister indicate whether from across the country 79951-0-2681
Feeds Act
he has had any great criticism of the proposals that are contained in this bill?


William Arnold Peters: I am very pleased to see that the act has been revised and to know that the department is interested in regulating and controlling the new types of feeds that are being produced and keeping a close scrutiny on them. There is a growing need for this because of the additives used in the feeds. We must ascertain whether any of them is carrying any of the antibiotics, or whatever they may have added to them. It becomes more and more important for the department to keep a close regulatory control over this type of product.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: If the minister speaks now he will close the debate.


Douglas Scott Harkness: In response to the query of the hon. member for Kenora-Rainy River (Mr. Benidickson) I can only reply by saying that as far as I can recollect we have had practically no direct representations by feed merchants.


William Moore Benidickson: Although there are 800 of them?


Douglas Scott Harkness: Yes. I have had a certain number of letters from individuals not in the feed business, as far as I can make out, ordinary consumers, I would say, who are somewhat worried about the various therapeutic agents being put into feeds and who were impressing upon us the necessity of close supervision of what was put into those feeds.
However, the department and the officials of the department have been in close consultation with representatives of feed companies and people concerned with drafting this bill. As far as I am aware there is no opposition on the part of the people concerned to whom this legislation will apply most directly, namely the feed manufacturers and sellers. Certainly, I have had no evidence as far as they are concerned that there is any opposition at all and in fact I think in most cases at least they are anxious to have a revision which will bring the legislation more in conformity, as I said earlier, with the present situation.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time, and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Flynn in the chair.
Clauses 1 and 2 agreed to.
On clause 3-Sale and importation of feeds.
William Moore Benidickson: The minister will be aware that a question was raised and not answered in the other house as to any conflict of jurisdiction of this federal parliament having to do with regulations respecting selling within

Feeds Act
a province. Can the minister indicate whether or not the federal rights would be restricted to interprovincial and international selling of feeds when it is said that:
No person shall sell or import into Canada any feed unless the feed
(a)	has been registered as prescribed;
(b)	conforms to prescribed standards; and
(c)	is packaged and labelled as prescribed.


Douglas Scott Harkness: No. I think that under this act, because of the necessity for the protection of the general public, particularly in view of the addition to foods at the present time of agents of different sorts, the federal government has sufficient authority to put into effect and to carry out provisions such as these. Also, as the hon. member is aware, the federal government is responsible for standards and under that general provision has been responsible for standards. Subparagraph (b) refers to prescribed standards. The federal government lays down the standards, such as No. 1 wheat, No. 2 wheat, No. 3 C.W. oats, and so on. As a result, there is no constitutional difficulty as far as this act is concerned.


[Stage Direction]
Clause agreed to.
Clauses 4 and 5 agreed to.
On clause 6-Inspectors and analysts.
William Moore Benidickson: Under this clause the minister is taking some discretionary powers. Will he indicate, under the present act, how many full-time employees there are? What has the minister's experience been as to the necessity of employing persons who would not be full-time and would, therefore, perhaps not normally be employed under civil service procedures?


Douglas Scott Harkness: Mr. Chairman, I have not got the figures as to the number of full-time employees in my head. One of the officials of the department will be here in a minute and he could provide information as to the actual situation. Of course, most of the work under this act, or under the act as it is at the present time and the same situation will prevail when the new act is passed, is carried out by permanent employees of the plant products division, who also carry out many other duties.


William Moore Benidickson: Does the minister contemplate much utilization of his right to overlook the Civil Service Act and designate certain persons as qualified for the purpose of functioning under this act?


Douglas Scott Harkness: I am informed that the only purpose of this provision is to enable one of the permanent employees of the department,

say a dairy inspector who is working in a dairy plant, to be nominated as an inspector for the purpose of this act.


James Moffat Forgie: If this analyst is designated as a qualified person by the minister, he still must be appointed by the civil service commission, is that correct?


Douglas Scott Harkness: No, these other employees are civil servants. As I say, the purpose of this part is so that someone who is not employed all the time on this particular job, someone who may be a dairy products inspector, as I said, could also be designated as an inspector for the purpose of this act.


[Stage Direction]
Clause agreed to.
Clauses 7 to 9 inclusive agreed to.
On clause 10-Offence.
William Moore Benidickson: Would the minister just indicate to the committee why he feels that the penalties must be much more stringent than under the existing act. I take it that under sections 11, 12 and 13, in lieu of paying a fine, the alternative penalty is imprisonment respectively for t .vo months, two months and one month, while here the imprisonment is up to six months.


Douglas Scott Harkness: This is merely a matter of bringing the levels of punishment provided up to the levels for summary conviction offences under the Criminal Code.


[Stage Direction]
Clause agreed to.
Clauses 11 to 14 inclusive agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported.
Mr. Deputy Speaker:: When shall this bill be read a third time? Now?


John Whitney Pickersgill: By leave.


Douglas Scott Harkness: the third reading of the bill.
Motion agreed to and bill read the third time and passed.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

John Whitney Pickersgill: Would the house leader just confirm the business for tomorrow?


Gordon Minto Churchill: Yes. For tomorrow, as I outlined last night, we will take the estimates of the Department of Agriculture, followed by post office, mines and technical surveys and transport and that order will hold for Friday as well.
I might say, although normally I would announce on Thursday night the business for

the following week and will do so tomorrow, I should like to draw the attention of the house to one factor. There is on the order paper Bill No. S-28 for second reading, an act respecting a certain trade agreement between Canada and Australia. At the appropriate time next week I should like to call that forward for consideration of the house, and perhaps the house would consider passing that bill prior to the arrival in Ottawa on June 6 of a very distinguished trade mission from Australia.
Business of the House


John Whitney Pickersgill: I wonder if the house leader could assist us by indicating what the first business would be for next week.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Subject to confirmation tomorrow night, the first item to be called on Monday would be the second reading of Bill No. C-58, an act to amend the Combines Investigation Act and the Criminal Code.


[Stage Direction]
It being eight minutes after six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[Stage Direction]
Question

[Stage Direction]
The following answer, deposited with the Clerk of the house, is printed in the official report of debates pursuant to standing order 39:

Mr. Carter: 1.	For each of the years 1929, 1939, 1949 and 1959, either calendar or fiscal, what was the total public debt of Canada under the following headings (a) federal: (b) provincial; <c) municipal?
2.	What was the estimated total interest paid under each of the above headings, for the same years?
3.	What was the average rate of interest on public debts for the following years 1929, 1939, 1949, 1959?
4.	What was the estimated population of Canada at the end of the following years 1929, 1939, 1949, 1959?
Answer by: Hon. Gordon Churchill (Minister
of Trade and Commerce:
1	to 3. The total public debt of Canada, the annual interest charges thereon and the average interest rate (per cent) was:
Fiscal years ended nearest March 31
1959 Federal	
Provincial.... Municipal	
1949 Federal	
Provincial____
Municipal	
1939 Federal	
Provincial.... Municipal	
1929 Federal	
Provincial.... Municipal	
die debt (a)	Annual interest charges thereon	Average interest rate
(Millions of dollars)		(per cent)
15,574.1	551.6	3.543,349.5	125.8	3.763,392.1	(b)	(b)15,585.0	411.6	2.641,767.0	63.8	3.61995.0	(b)	(b)3,385.7	119.2	3.521,602.4	(b)	(b)1,302.2	(b)	(b)2,325.4	116.8	5.02817.9	(b)	(b)1,134.1	(b)	(b)(a)	Federal- consists of unmatured funded debt (including bonds, treasury bills, treasury notes and deposit certificates). Provincial and municipal- consists of bonds and debentures.(b)	indicates figures are not available.4.	Population estimates at the end of the were: 1959, 17,442,000; 1949, 13,447,000; 1939, years indicated are not available, the esti- 11,267,000 and 1929, 10,029,000. mates as at June 1 in the years indicated
Thursday, May 26, 1960



COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE

[Stage Direction]
Second report of standing committee on estimates-Mr. Smith (Calgary South).


[Stage Direction]
Mr. Heward Grafftey (for Miss Aitken)
presented the fifth report of the standing committee on standing orders, and moved that the report be concurred in.
Motion agreed to.