1960-05-13

Mr. H. W. Herridge (Kootenay West):: wish to move, seconded by the hon. member for Vancouver East (Mr. Winch), the adjournment of the house under standing order 26 for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely the imminent termination of unemployment insurance seasonal benefits to approximately
200,000	unemployed persons, which will cause further hardship to those affected and impose an increased financial burden on hundreds of municipalities.
In proposing this motion, Mr. Speaker, I am sure there is no necessity to emphasize to the members of the house the importance of the subject with which it deals. I think on that we all agree.
In view of the termination of unemployment insurance seasonal benefits on May 15 and consequently the urgency of the question I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that the answers given by the Minister of Labour (Mr. Starr) in this house to questions of members of the opposition with respect to this very important question to thousands of Canadians have created an anxiety among those persons, thousands of unemployed Canadians, that demands immediate consideration and action by this house.


Mr. Speaker:: Before I make the decision which falls to the Chair, does any hon. member from either the government or the opposition wish to comment on the compliance with standing order 26 of the proposed motion?


Hon. Paul Martin (Essex East):: I rise, Mr. Speaker, to support this motion put forward by the hon. gentleman who has just spoken. It is clear, under the citation to which the hon. member directed Your Honour's attention, that this is a matter of great urgency and also a question which, in consequence, creates a situation that can only be characterized by urgency of debate.
It will not be a satisfactory answer for hon. gentlemen opposite to say that during this session there has been ample opportunity to discuss this question of unemployment. The question now before us is a new situation, 79951-0-2431
one that arises because of the termination date on Monday as a result of which thousands of individuals in this country will not be able to obtain the beneficial results and consequences of the seasonal benefits.
The latest unemployment figures which were made available to us indicated that on the lowest basis 556,000 people, at a minimum, were out of work. It surely is not an overstatement to argue that the most important single domestic problem is that of unemployment, now brought into focus by the fact that these benefits are no longer to be available to a very large number of those who come within the category of men and women out of work.
We in the Liberal party therefore strongly support this proposal, and we ask for an opportunity of debating a question which arises now for the first time in this context, a question that is clearly within the citation and one that calls for solution at the hands of the government of the day. The minister has given a straightforward answer as to the government's intention in this particular, pursuant to a question that was put to him the other day. He having taken that position, we ought now to be afforded on opportunity under this procedure of giving the reasons why the stand taken by the government should be changed and why we on this side of the house should be given an opportunity of successfully resisting that stand.


Hon. Howard C. Green (Acting Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, it is very touching to hear the hon. member for Essex East (Mr. Martin) appealing for an opportunity to discuss this question. His government had the opportunity for a good many years to extend the period during which benefits would be available but they did nothing about it, and it remained for the present government to put into effect the present legislation.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I must ask the minister to speak to the question of the relevancy of this motion.


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Kootenay West (Mr. Herridge) and the hon. member for Essex East were able to make political speeches during the course of their observations. I hate to contravene the rules, but I do submit that I should be entitled to the same opportunity.
3854	HOUSE OF
Seasonal Unemployment Benefits Terminated


Mr. Speaker:: I agree the minister is entitled to the same latitude, but I thought perhaps a cautionary word in view of his opening sentence would be appropriate.


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, this is not the type of case in which leave for a motion to adjourn the house should be entertained, because it has been known since the start of this session that these benefits would expire at a certain time. It is not something which has just come up at the last minute. All hon. members have known this. They have been discussing it off and on since the house opened on January 14; and if under these conditions it were possible for a motion to be entertained to adjourn the house, then I do suggest it would make a farce of this whole rule.
Mr. Speaker, the rule is designed to deal with something which comes up suddenly and in an unusual way. In such situations, then quite properly there is provision for moving to adjourn the house. But here we have what is in effect an attempt to thresh old straw which has already been threshed in previous *debates during the present session. Not only has there been opportunity for debate in the weeks which have passed, but there will be opportunity for debate on various occasions during the remainder of the session.
I do suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, that you should not be influenced by these synthetic crocodile tears which are being shed on the other side of the house, and that the business of the house should be allowed to proceed in the normal way. These questions are matters of government policy and government policy, determined quite a long time ago, has been carried out. If there should be any change in government policy, then of course it would have to be announced in due course.


Paul Joseph James Martin: But Monday is the last day; that is the point.


Mr. Fulton:: Mr. Speaker-


Mr. Speaker:: I think I have heard sufficient discussion of the question to enable me to determine it.
The request for leave to move the adjournment of the house is really, I suppose, for the purpose of urging the continuance of the seasonal benefits under the Unemployment Insurance Act benefits which expire on May 15. There is nothing sudden or unexpected about the expiry of these benefits. The period of benefits was settled by a decision of this house and parliament, and must have been in the minds of members of the house since that decision was taken, which was some time back. So in that sense there is not a sudden or unexpected change of circumstances which


confronts the house and requires the suspension of other business to give it consideration.
What in effect we would be discussing-and I think this appears from what has been said by the hon. member who raised this question and the hon. member for Essex East-would be, really, the problem of those who are unemployed in this country and who would be affected by the expiration of these benefits. I do not think I could properly accept a motion which would suspend other business in order to discuss that question, because I have on other previous occasions this session suggested that the problem of unemployment is a continuous problem and not one which should be debated by the house under this particular procedure.
Therefore, consistently with what I have said before, I conclude that this request for leave under standing order 26 should not be permitted.
(Translation):



NATIONAL DEFENCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Maurice Bourgei (Levis):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct to the Associate Minister of National Defence a question of which I gave him notice.
Could the minister tell us whether members of the regular armed forces are, in the legal sense, on active duty?


Hon. Pierre Sevigny (Associate Minister of National Defence):: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for Levis for giving me notice of this question.
In reply, I wish to inform him that members of the regular armed forces of Canada are, in the legal sense, on active duty. They were put on active duty at the time of the Korean war, and this situation has remained unchanged since then.


Maurice Bourget: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. In view of the minister's reply that those servicemen are on active duty, does it mean that, since they are qualified voters, they will be unable to vote in the Quebec provincial election at locations where they are now stationed?
(Text):


Mr. Speaker:: Order. Before the minister replies may I ask the hon. member who proposed the supplementary question whether he is not asking for an expression of opinion on a question of law with respect to voting

in the provincial elections. It is not the general practice to ask for opinions on matters of law at this point in our proceedings, and I think this would be particularly so if the question sought an interpretation of the electoral law of a province.


Hon. Lionel Chevrier (Laurier):: I should like to address a question to the Acting Prime Minister, in the light of the reply which has been given by the Associate Minister of National Defence. In view of the wording of the order in council to which reference has been made, which states among other things that officers and men of the Canadian forces not exceeding 15,000 in number at any one time may most effectively participate in action undertaken by the United Nations to restore peace in the Republic of Korea, would the Acting Prime Minister get an opinion from the law officers of the crown as to whether the order in council is still in force, or whether it has been spent, since there is no longer any fighting in Korea?


Howard Charles Green: I will be very glad to have this matter looked into.
(Translation):


Maurice Bourget: I wish to direct another question to the Associate Minister of National Defence.
Could the minister indicate whether members of the armed forces now stationed in the province of Quebec will be allowed to stay there until the day after the elections, so that they may exercise their franchise before being moved to another camp?


Mr. Fortin:: Mr. Lesage asked that question yesterday.


Joseph Pierre Albert Sévigny: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Levis will not doubt understand that armed forces personnel are subject to the contingencies of their military obligations, particularly to those connected with service arising out of any developments that may occur in the matter of defence.
It would be difficult for me to assure him with absolute certainty that all members of the armed forces will remain stationed where they are now until the day of the provincial elections.
(Text):



BRITISH COLUMBIA-REPORTED OPERATION OF AIR STRIP BY U.S.

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Paul Hellyer (Trinity):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Defence. Has the minister any statement or explanation in respect
Inquiries of the Ministry to a Canadian Press report from Vancouver to the effect that the United States air force is operating an air strip in the Puntzi lake district of British Columbia?


Hon. G. R. Pearkes (Minister of National Defence):: Mr. Speaker, at Puntzi lake one of the Pine Tree radar stations is established. At that station an air strip was completed in 1954 in order to enable light aircraft of the Otter type to supply the personnel of that station with the necessary provisions, etc. That station, as are a number of others, is operated by United States personnel under the original Pine Tree agreement.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: A supplementary question. Can the minister confirm or otherwise reports from civilian pilots flying regularly in the area that they have observed considerable jet activity around this field?


George Randolph Pearkes: No, Mr. Speaker, I do not think there has been any considerable jet activity in that area.



DISCUSSION OF DEFENCE MATTERS BY ASSOCIATE DEFENCE MINISTER

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member for Des-chatelets.


Mr. J. P. Deschatelets (Maisonneuve-Rose-mont):: Mr. Speaker-


Mr. Speaker:: I apologize to the hon. member for trying to rename his riding. The hon. member for Maisonneuve-Rosemont.
(Translation):


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Associate Minister of National Defence. Could the minister tell us if during his stay in Paris, he discussed the present situation with defence authorities in the French government? If so, has he any comment for us?


Joseph Pierre Albert Sévigny: Mr. Speaker, in answer to the question asked by the hon. member for Maisonneuve-Rosemont, I must say that, during my stay in Paris, I had in fact the honour and privilege of meeting the minister of war of the French government, His Excellency Mr. Mesmer. We discussed matters of joint interest to France and Canada, as associate members of NATO. But the discussion was of a general nature, and I have nothing specific to tell hon. members with regard to that interview.

Inquiries of the Ministry


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Was the subject of the Bomarc brought up during those discussions?


Joseph Pierre Albert Sévigny: No, Mr. Speaker.
(Text):



BOMARC MISSILE-INQUIRY AS TO SUCCESSFUL TESTS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. G. H. Aiken (Parry Sound-Muskoka):: I have a question for the Minister of National Defence, since the hon. member for Trinity (Mr. Hellyer) did not seem to be anxious to ask it. Can the minister confirm reports of successful tests of the Bomarc A yesterday?


George Randolph Pearkes: Yes, two highly successful tests were carried out with Bomarc A missiles in the United States.



NEWFOUNDLAND


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Hazen Argue (Assiniboia):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Acting Prime Minister. Would he care to comment on the announcement by Premier Smallwood that Soviet technicians may be called in to examine the power potential of Hamilton falls? Can the hon. gentleman say whether any consultation has taken place between the federal government and Premier Smallwood?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I should like to know under what category the hon. member asks that question and under what administrative responsibility he places the matter in asking the Acting Prime Minister to comment on the utterance of the premier of a province.


Hazen Robert Argue: Perhaps I could ask my question in another way. Has there been any consultation between the government of Newfoundland and the federal government as to the possibility and desirability of bringing in Soviet technicians to inquire into the possibility of the development of Hamilton falls?


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, I learned of this question myself for the first time this morning through the radio and press reports. The hon. member will realize that Premier Smallwood is reported as having made this speech at a luncheon yesterday and then having hurried to his office, banged the door and apparently taken the telephone receiver off the hook.


Hazen Robert Argue: Did the minister try to phone him?


Howard Charles Green: I do not know how I could get any information from him, but I do suggest to the hon. member that the most effective way to get this information would be to ask the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate (Mr. Pickersgill). I believe he has a walkie-talkie connection with the premier.


Mr. Speakman:: He is a spiritualist.


Howard Charles Green: I think the communication system is used by him for listening, so probably the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate would have that information. That is the only practical suggestion I could make to the hon. member for Assiniboia as a way of getting an answer to this question.


Mr. Speaker:: I hope the hon. member will not take seriously the suggestion of the Acting Prime Minister, because he would be out of order.



HOUSING


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. R. Garland (Nipissing):: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Minister of Public Works I should like to direct a question to the Acting Prime Minister based on a news item in today's Globe and Mail under the headline:
Prime Lending Role Accepted by C.M.H.C. In Reversal of Policy.
The article reads in part:
R. G. Lillie, chairman of the Toronto branch of the government housing agency, yesterday confirmed the change in policy, under which C.M.H.C. is no longer prevented from acting as a prime lender.
In view of this apparent reversal of policy in the Toronto area I wonder whether the government is contemplating extending this privilege to other areas of Canada.


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, I will be glad to bring this question to the attention of the Minister of Public Works.



PRESENCE IN GALLERY OF SAFETY PATROL REPRESENTATIVES

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. O. W. Weichel (Waterloo North):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Acting Prime Minister the answer to which I have provided him. Does he know that the Ontario motor league safety patrol jamboree is being held in Ottawa on May 13 and 14

and that 150 representatives of this patrol from Waterloo county and the Windsor and Hamilton districts are visitors in the gallery this morning?


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, I am very grateful to the hon. member for Waterloo North for giving me the answer to this question. I am sure I speak for all members of the house when I welcome these young people to the galleries of the house and commend them for the very useful work they are doing.



PUBLIC SERVICE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Hubert Badanai (Fort William):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Finance. According to a report which appeared in yesterday's issue of the Ottawa Citizen the pay research bureau has completed a survey of salaries paid to postal employees and has made its recommendations to the treasury board. Can the minister inform the house whether a pay boost for postal employees is an immediate prospect?


Hon. Donald M. Fleming (Minister of Finance):: Mr. Speaker, on March 31 I indicated that the salaries of all categories in the civil service were under study, and I mentioned specifically that those of personnel engaged in the postal service were under study. Whenever it is possible to make an announcement in this respect it will, of course, be made by the appropriate authority.



COMBINES INVESTIGATION ACT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Edmund Davie Fulton: Mr. Speaker, yesterday the hon. member for Skeena asked what action had been taken or was contemplated with respect to the recommendation of the restrictive trade practices commission for certain restraining orders against Zinc Oxide Company of Canada Limited and Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting Company Limited, arising from the report of the commission regarding the production and sale of zinc oxide.
I have since obtained a further report in this matter which confirms the answer I gave the hon. member yesterday, as indicated in the annual report of the director of investigation and research for the year ended March 31, 1959, at page 16 in particular:
The evidence was referred to counsel for advice as to whether it warranted prosecution under the anti-combines legislation. Counsel advised that
Inquiries of the Ministry in his opinion the evidence, having regard to certain conflicts therein, would not support such prosecution. The parties were accordingly advised on July 31, 1959, that, following counsel's report and careful consideration of the question within the Department of Justice, it had been decided not to direct any court proceedings in the matter.


Mr. Frank Howard (Skeena):: I should like to direct a supplementary question to the Minister of National Revenue arising out of the same report. May I inquire of the Minister of National Revenue what action has been taken or is contemplated with respect to the recommendation for the removal or reduction of tariffs on zinc? Perhaps the minister would like to take the question as notice.


Hon. George C. Nowlan (Minister of National Revenue):: I will certainly take it as notice. As a matter of fact it is a matter dealing with tariffs, and I think it falls within the competence of my hon. friend the Minister of Finance rather than that of the Minister of National Revenue.
(Translation):



SHIPPING


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. George H. Hees (Minister of Transport):: The hon. member for Montmagny-L'lslet (Mr. Fortin) inquired yesterday about a ship that ran aground near Quebec. I am informed that Tuesday night the British tugboat Melanie Fair, a ship with a net tonnage of 64 tons, ran aground at Portneuf. The captain decided to sail up the St. Lawrence from Quebec without a pilot. He had a right to do so under the Canada Shipping Act, under which the acceptance of pilot services is optional.
In this particular case, the ship being of British registry, the captain will have to file a report with the customs office upon his arrival. Upon receipt of his report, it will be decided whether the matter should be further investigated.



CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. N. Tremblay (Roberval):: Mr. Speaker. I should like to ask the Minister of National Revenue a few questions. First, is he aware that in the 11 o'clock T.V. news bulletin last night, on the French network, the C.B.C. featured reports of speeches made in the House of Commons yesterday, by three members of the Liberal party, and made no reference whatever to the speech of the Minister of Finance (Mr. Fleming) ?

Inquiries of the Ministry
Second, is the minister prepared to accept the quite plausible explanations of technical nature that the C.B.C. is bound to give him in justification on its glaring partisanship?
Third, could the minister ask the corporation-
(Text):


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I suggest that the hon. member let the first question stand to be answered. The second one is hypothetical now and can be raised again if it becomes relevant.
(Translation):


Jean-Noël Tremblay: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Could the minister ask the corporation-
(Text):


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I suggest that the hon. member give the minister a chance to answer the first question.


George Clyde Nowlan: I will take the question as notice and give an answer in due course. I admit, of course, that the arguments of the Minister of Finance were, as usual, so weighty and authoritative that they do not need any further elaboration on my part.
(Translation):
Tremblay: I should like to ask a supplementary question of the minister. Could he add to the reply he has just given me an answer to the following question?
Could the minister ask the C.B.C. to inquire into the qualifications and impartiality of the people responsible for information broadcasts in the C.B.C., so that the corporation's senior officers may repeat on radio and television the statements they made before the parliamentary committee about the objectivity of the corporation?
(Text):



POLICY RESPECTING EMPLOYEES NOMINATED IN PROVINCIAL ELECTIONS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
['Any such business conducted by these planes is legitimate business, meteorological and radiation work.']
Hon. J. W. Pickersgill (Bonavista-Twillin-gale):: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of National Revenue whether it is the policy of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation to dismiss from its employment employees who accept nomination in a provincial election.


George Clyde Nowlan: Mr. Speaker, I have no knowledge of this matter whatsoever. The C.B.C. has its own policy with respect to employment, but I will make inquiry and advise on the matter.


John Whitney Pickersgill: May I ask a supplementary question of the minister. Can the minister at the same time inquire into a specific case in the province of British Columbia which has been the cause of a good deal of comment there?


George Clyde Nowlan: I will do that.



[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hazen Robert Argue: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Acting Prime Minister. In view of the desirability of lessening world tension and in view of the reported intention of the United States government to continue having planes of the U-2 type fly over Soviet territory, using the territory of United States allies as bases, would the minister say whether the use of Canadian air space is denied to United States planes of the U-2 type at this time?


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, I explained to the house the other day that the only type of U-2 planes which fly over Canada are those engaged in meteorological and radiation activities, and that they are duly cleared each time, with a flight plan being filed; reporting as they carry out their mission; reporting as they come back, and reporting when they leave Canada. This, as I said, is the only type of U-2 plane that is using Canadian air space.


Hazen Robert Argue: I wonder if I might ask a further question.


Howard Charles Green: I think, if the hon. member will recall, I also said they did not go beyond North American air space.


Hazen Robert Argue: I wonder whether the minister would care to elucidate a reply to a question the other day, in which he said that no such planes have ever operated from Canadian bases. Can he assure the house that no such planes have ever operated from United States bases on Canadian soil or within Canada?


Howard Charles Green: In my statement the other day I not only dealt with the question of planes operating from Canadian bases, but also planes flying over Canada.


Hazen Robert Argue: I do not believe the minister understood my question. Can he assure the house that no such planes operate from United States bases or bases within Canada leased to the United States?


Howard Charles Green: I explained that fully the other day, and that is actually the fact. The hon.

member is asking if they do not operate from United States bases on Canadian soil, and I say not the spy type of plane. Of course the planes doing meteorological and radiation work would fly from the United States. As I pointed out, this is not the type of plane that was over Russia. I explained that these planes have United States air force markings and they are operated by United States air force personnel. This was not the case with the plane that was over Russia.


Hazen Robert Argue: Did they operate from United States bases within Canada?


Howard Charles Green: Any such business conducted by these planes is legitimate business, meteorological and radiation work.



CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Paul Joseph James Martin: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Transport concerning a question which I put to him last Friday, at which time he undertook to persuade the president of the Canadian National Railways to discuss with the mayor of London and members of the council of railroad workers the desirability of a conference to see whether a change could not be made in the decision taken by the railway to move the Canadian National car shops from London. I have had a telegram from London again, and I should like to have an answer from the minister.


George Harris Hees: When I was replying to the hon. member a few days ago in connection with this matter I simply told him that I would pass along his remarks to the president of the Canadian National Railways, which I have done. I should like to let him know, and the house know, that long before the hon. member for Essex East took any interest whatever in this matter, the hon. member for London brought this question to my attention. He has spoken to me a great deal about it, and takes a great deal of interest in the welfare of his constituents. He has made me thoroughly familiar with the situation in London, just as all Conservative members take an interest in their constituencies and do not need the assistance of those from other constituencies.


Paul Joseph James Martin: May I ask a supplementary question.


George Harris Hees: If I may go on to finish the answer to the first question, Mr. Speaker, I should like also to say that I was very 79951-0-244
Inquiries of the Ministry interested to read in the Daily Report of the Canadian National Railways, dated May 11, that in a speech the hon. member made to the southwestern Ontario Liberal association in London a few days ago he had urged the Conservative government to exert its influence, without interfering in Canadian National operations-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The minister seems to have misconceived the question.


Paul Joseph James Martin: May I ask a supplementary question of the minister. Will he seek to indicate to the president of the Canadian National Railways that there can be no excuse for not meeting and conferring with the chief magistrate of London and the workers concerned, to see whether this very important source of employment can be kept in London. Surely it is not asking too much of the minister-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member has made his point, and I hope he will not proceed to argue it.


Lionel Chevrier: I rise on a point of order in connection with the answer the minister has given, because I am sure he did not want to convey the impression which he did give. I understood from his answer, as I have understood from the answer of several ministers in the house, that it seems not to be the business of members of parliament to interfere in the constituencies of other members. I think, sir, on a question of privilege as well as on a question of order, that it should be clearly understood that a member of parliament does have a right to ask questions concerning matters in another constituency, even though he happens not to be the member for that constituency.
I say this with deference, because it has happened repeatedly that ministers of the crown have risen to take objection, and I protest because I say we have a clear right to do what we are doing now.


George Harris Hees: May I speak to the point of order? I have never claimed that it is not the right of a member of parliament to bring up matters in other ridings. I was saying that in ridings represented by Conservatives that is not necessary.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker-


Mr. Speaker:: Does the hon. member wish to speak to the point of order.


Paul Joseph James Martin: No, I want to ask the minister to answer my question.

Inquiries of the Ministry


Mr. Speaker:: May I deal with the point of order first.


Mr. D. M. Fisher (Port Arthur):: May I
speak to the point of order. The minister has, in my view, given what should not be given on orders of the day. He has made a point, in connection with the performance of duties by Conservative members of parliament, that seems to be impinging on the functions of other members who are not supporters of the government. If we could seize such opportunities to get up and make this kind of point that the minister has made, all of us could give examples of defeated Conservative candidates impinging upon the rights of ordinary members of parliament. It seems to me the minister was completely out of order in making these remarks.


Mr. Speaker:: I confess that I had similar thoughts as the minister made his reply. I did not, perhaps, intervene early enough. The precise point of order was the question of a reflection on a member for taking an interest in a constituency other than his own. As I understood the minister there was no reflection on the hon. member for Essex East for concerning himself with this matter, but rather he was giving a word of approbation to certain other members for what they had done. It is quite clear that it would be improper to reflect on the hon. member for Essex East or any member in the house for taking an interest in any matter of public administration in Canada. I do not believe the reflection was intended or was made.


Paul Joseph James Martin: May I ask the
minister, now that he agrees that someone must be concerned about unemployment in London and elsewhere, whether he will answer my question, which I will repeat. Will the minister-


Mr. Speaker:: I think it is unnecessary to repeat the question.


Howard Charles Green: There may have been one question asked by the hon. member for Assiniboia-


Mr. Speaker:: Would the Acting Prime Minister defer for just one minute, until we conclude this matter?


George Harris Hees: May I complete my answer to the hon. member for Essex East. I forgot to add that the hon. members for Middlesex East and Middlesex West have drawn this matter to my attention and are very concerned about it. As a result of the concern these hon. members have shown in this matter the Canadian National Railways, on my suggestion, have made surveys of this very serious problem, have gone into it from every
[Mr. Martin (Essex East).!

angle and done everything they possibly could to retain the operation in London. It is with great reluctance that they have found it impossible to do so. They have gone into this matter very thoroughly indeed, being very interested in employment for the people in London and in every other part of the country, as is this government. I am sure that Mr. Gordon was as amused and interested as I have been to see members of the former government shedding crocodile tears when during their term of office they never did anything about the matter.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The minister is quite out of order in volunteering a statement of that kind in response to a question on the orders of the day. The Acting Prime Minister has been-


Paul Joseph James Martin: This matter is not concluded, Mr. Speaker. I have asked the minister a simple question and if he does not wish to answer he does not need to do so. That question is this. Is the Minister of Transport prepared to tell the president of the Canadian National Railways that he should at least discuss this matter with the mayor of London and the workers concerned?


George Harris Hees: If I may answer the question-


Mr. Speaker:: Yes, but may I say that the question put by the hon. member for Essex East (Mr. Martin) appears to be not so much a question as an urging or an argument-


George Harris Hees: An order.


Mr. Speaker:: -for a course of action.


George Harris Hees: If I might answer that question, may I say that I was referring to something which the hon. member is reported to have said in London; that he believes the Conservative government should use its influence without interference in the normal C.N.R. operations. Demanding that the president of the C.N.R. do something is interfering with the normal C.N.R. operations.


Paul Joseph James Martin: You do not intend to do anything.


Mr. G. J. Mcllraiih (Ottawa West):: I am
rising on a point of order, Mr. Speaker. A question has been asked and the answer given has transgressed the rule on many points. It contains political references. It contains argument on the relevant merits of various members of parliament, about various parties and a great many other things that are purely argumentive. Surely if this period is to be useful we are entitled to have from the minister something more precise by way of observance of the rules in giving answers to questions. Since the points of order should

be raised as the difficulties arise, I was going to ask whether this whole matter of answers could not be looked at.


Mr. Henderson:: Never mind the speech. Go ahead and ask the question.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I am sorry I missed the interruption.


An hon. Member:: It was a good one.


Mr. Speaker:: However, I cannot condone its having been made during the explanation of the hon. member's point of order.


George James McIlraith: I was going to ask that the whole matter of answers be looked at from the point of view of transgression of the rules and that a ruling be made at a later date, probably at the beginning of the week.


Mr. Speaker:: I think there is no need to reserve anything. The hon. member for Ottawa West (Mr. Mcllraith) has raised a question that from time to time gives concern. Hon. members will have to keep within the limits of the rules in their questions, particularly in their oral questions, if we are to make any use of this period without improperly holding up the business on the order paper. Rule 39, may I remind the house, contains quite definite language. It is not a question of practice; it is a question of a specific rule. Rule 39 states in part as follows:
-but in putting any such question or in replying to the same no argument or opinion is to be offered, nor any facts stated, except so far as may be necessary to explain the same; and in answering such question the matter to which the same refers shall not be debated.
I must rely on the co-operation of both sides of the house to keep within these limits.
The Acting Prime Minister (Mr. Green) has been trying to get the floor.



UNITED NATIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Howard Charles Green: On Wednesday, Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Assiniboia (Mr. Argue) asked whether there had been any discussion between Canada and the secretary general of the United Nations on the establishment of a fund for African development.
No discussions of the kind referred to have taken place recently. The Canadian permanent representative at the United Nations had some discussion with the secretary general earlier this year about assistance to Africa, and since that time we have 79951-0-2441
Inquiries of the Ministry been following closely the secretary general's statements and the development of his ideas on this subject, in particular a report which the secretary general presented to the economic and social council of the United Nations at the end of March. In his report to the economic and social council the secretary general did not propose a special United Nations fund for Africa. He stated that the question required further study, and that he proposed to report more fully to the economic and social council at its next session in June of this year.
The government will, of course, continue to follow with great interest the elaboration of Mr. Hammarskj old's proposals as to the United Nations' role in assistance to Africa through the Canadian representative at the United Nations.


Hazen Robert Argue: I should like to ask a supplementary question. Possibly the Acting Prime Minister could say whether Canada has made any particular offer to the United Nations' secretary general as far as assistance in this fund is concerned.


Howard Charles Green: Any assistance would have to be approved by the United Nations, either by the general assembly or one of the subsidiary organizations. No proposal has yet reached the stage where an indication could be given as to whether or not Canada would approve.



NORTHERN AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John Richard Garland: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources. Can the minister say what consideration is being given to establishing a tourist information bureau in western Europe in an effort to take advantage of the rapidly increasing flow of tourists from Europe resulting from their resurging economy?


Mr. Speaker:: Did the hon. member give notice of this question?


Hon. Alvin Hamilton (Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources):: I am
prepared to answer it, Mr. Speaker. Since the change in the regulations in the United Kingdom with regard to restrictions on the movement of currency to Canada, the federal government through its travel bureau and our Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources has been in consultation with the high commissioner of the United Kingdom about plans for that particular

Inquiries of the Ministry area. A representative of the travel bureau is going to Europe this summer to meet with the high commissioner in the United Kingdom. He will also visit certain other capitals and countries of Europe in order to lay our plans for moving into this particularly interesting market for tourists.



TRANSPORT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Herbert Wilfred Herridge: wish to direct a question to the Minister of Transport. My question is of concern to three constituencies in southeastern British Columbia. Has the minister received representations in person from representatives of railroad employees urging him to do what he can to secure the restoration of normal passenger service on the Kettle Valley railroad?


George Harris Hees: No, I do not remember having received any personal representations, Mr. Speaker.


George Harris Hees: If I may, I should like to give a supplementary answer to the hon. member for Kootenay West. I thought he was referring to a delegation that had come to see me. I do not remember any delegation but I think there may have been letters written to me. I will check my flies and report on Monday.


Lionel Chevrier: The Kettle Valley railway is an important railway.



GREAT SLAVE LAKE-COMMISSION REPORT ON PROPOSED RAILWAY

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. E. J. Broome (Vancouver South):: I
have a question for the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources. Can the minister advise the house as to when he expects to receive the report of the Manning commission on the Pine Point railway? Also can he advise as to the reason for the long delay in completing this report?


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: I believe
this question really goes to the Prime Minister. All I can say at this time is that I do not believe the report has been submitted. I have no particular information as to the reason for the long delay.



INDUSTRY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hazen Robert Argue: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce, one which is of great interest to the people of Saskatchewan.
In view of the difficult uranium situation, would the minister care to explain why Eldorado Mining and Refining Limited did not submit a bid on the unexpired portion of the Stanleigh Uranium Mining Corporation contract? Would the minister assure the house that Eldorado will not be confined to a definite area but will be allowed to negotiate for unexpired contracts in any part of Canada?


Hon. Gordon Churchill (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: Mr. Speaker, the answer to the first question is that the decision was made by the board of directors of Eldorado Mining and Refining Limited. In answer to the second question, no restriction has been placed on the board with regard to negotiating for unexpired contracts.



FEDERAL-PROVINCIAL TAX-SHARING ARRANGEMENTS ACT ALTERNATIVE ARRANGEMENTS FOR UNIVERSITY GRANTS-EXTENSION OF INDIVIDUAL INCOME TAX RATE

[Stage Direction]
The house resumed, from Thursday, May 12, consideration of the motion of Mr. Fleming (Eglinton) for third reading of Bill No. C-56, to amend the Federal-Provincial Tax-Sharing Arrangements Act.
Mr. Speaker:: Is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion?



BIRTHDAY CONGRATULATIONS TO HON. MEMBER FOR DUFFERIN-SIMCOE

Mr. Speaker:: Before I leave the chair and the house goes into committee, with your indulgence I should like to declare what I am sure is another unanimous view of the house, when I offer on behalf of all those here our hearty congratulations to the hon. member who has been here for the second longest period, the hon. member for Dufferin-Simcoe (Mr. Rowe) whose birthday it is.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Hon. W. Earl Rowe (Dufferin-Simcoe):: Mr. Speaker, this is a very unexpected privilege you have extended to me in giving me an opportunity to express my keen appreciation of the friendships I have had in this house for many years. As Your Honour has said, I am the member who has been here for the second longest time. I have attended all the sessions of the House of Commons since 1925. During that time I believe I have met all those who have been elected to the House of Commons since. Many of our dear friends on both sides of the house have since deceased. I must say that what 1 have enjoyed the most has been the opportunity of making many friendships in all quarters of the house, having sat here for more sessions than anyone else; which is a rather sad story to relate on one's birthday.
This morning when I got on the plane in Toronto one gentleman seemed to be a little timid about the flight. He said, "I do not like the idea of flying this morning. The weather is unsettled, we go through gate No. 13, and it is Friday, May 13." I said, "Yes, but if it is of any interest to you, it is my birthday." The gentleman looked at me closely, and I think he was more frightened than ever.
I am very happy to have had this long association with the House of Commons, which is the greatest institution in Canada. I have made some very close friends on all sides of the house. I wish to express my sincere appreciation of the congratulations extended to me today by you, Mr. Speaker, and my associates who have taken the time of the house to congratulate me in this unique and almost unprecedented fashion. I thank you very much and wish for all of you, whether or not I agree with you politically, Godspeed, good health and continued strong convictions in the political affairs in the country.

Supply-Agriculture SUPPLY
The house in committee of supply, Mr. Flynn in the chair.
DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE Research branch-
5. Branch administration including an amount of $166,610 for grants in aid of agricultural research in universities and other scientific organizations in Canada, $1,856,156.
(Translation):


Mr. Boulanger:: Mr. Chairman, I should like to say a few words on this item and especially about research.
In the past, research activities have centered mostly on technical aspects of agriculture: land productivity, research on insecticides, fertilizers, etc. In my opinion, we have not attached sufficient importance to economic research. I do not mean that there should be less research on land productivity but I think greater attention could be given to economic research. I refer particularly to research on marketing both in Canada and abroad.
Just after the war, European countries organized their production and increased it substantially, and to such an extent that today we already have a hard time exporting our wheat. In a few years, with production methods improving from day to day in various countries we shall have even more difficulty in selling our wheat.
About a year ago, in a paper put out by Macdonald College in Montreal I read recommendations on what Canada should do to improve our marketing system. Unfortunately I do not have this paper here but I have a few notes that I would like to summarize for the information of the committee and especially for that of the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Harkness).
According to that paper, the present situation calls for a long term program which Macdonald College has divided into two points:
First, we should survey the situation to find out what can be done on the domestic market.
Second, we should seek new and constructive ideas with regard to the world wheat market.
Canada it was said, should institute a research fund of about half a million dollars, to finance an intensive research plan over the next six or twelve months. Work under the plan would be divided between four or five teams. One team would be made up of professors and experts from universities in the prairie provinces; a second team would

include teachers from the universities of eastern Canada, a third would include individual researchers, while a fourth would consist of scientists selected by the government to be assigned to the various agencies or departments, such as the Department of Agriculture, the Canadian wheat board, the Departments of Trade and Commerce, External Affairs, Finance, etc. Finally, if deemed appropriate, our research effort might be pushed further with a fifth Canada-United States committee, made up of scientists and experts of both countries.
Canada has practically no scientists doing research in this field at the present time. The problem is quite difficult, and there is no assurance that such an investigation made by research teams would yield substantial results in the immediate future. However, it would be a start, and the government as well as the public would at least be made aware of the importance of the problem, a development that might bring forth new ideas.
This task should be undertaken as a means of finding an answer to the problems we will be facing within a few years, and particularly in the years just ahead. If the results were satisfactory, we could extend our research plan as far ahead as 1970 or 1975, and then, with such a long range program, we would know where we are going.
Those are a few thoughts I submit to the attention of the Minister of Agriculture, and I would ask him whether there is, within his department, a section which does research work in the sense I have just referred to.
(Text):


Mr. Harkness:: Mr. Chairman, the item we are dealing with under the research branch has to do primarily with research into the natural sciences, research into soils, insect diseases and everything along that line. Economic research, about which the hon. member has been talking, is carried on by the economics branch and was dealt with in the previous item.
As was indicated last Friday when we dealt with item 4, the number of personnel in the economics branch of the department has been increased by 10, from 136 to 146. This is an indication that we are strongly cognizant of the fact that more economic research needs to be carried on. We have been increasing the manpower and other resources of the economics branch so that an expanded program of economic research can be carried forward, and we have been doing an increasing amount of research as far as marketing is

concerned and so on. This is work on which we intend to continue to put a great deal of emphasis.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Following the very constructive suggestion and observations made by the hon. member for Drummond-Arthabaska, and noting what the minister has just said, can he say anything about what progress has been made in the determination of the cost of production so far as farmers are concerned? The minister will recall that the interprovincial farm union in particular, in a brief submitted by that organization to the government about a year and a half ago,
I think, urged that steps be taken by the administration to determine precisely what is the cost of production of agriculture.
We talk a lot about the difference between what the farmer has to pay for the things he has to buy, including the necessities of life, and the return from the sale of his produce. Has any progress been made in trying to assess the cost of farm production in Canada, generally and specifically?


Douglas Scott Harkness: A considerable number of studies, particularly by various provincial bodies in different parts of Canada, have been carried on with respect to specific commodities. These studies have demonstrated the extreme difficulty of getting what might be called really accurate figures as far as the cost of production is concerned. I mentioned last year, and I believe I mentioned again this year on one occasion, that a cost of production study had been carried out with respect to hogs. The survey showed that in one area of Quebec, for example, the cost of production was considerably less than in Alberta, although everybody is aware of the fact that the biggest item in the cost of production of hogs is feed and the cost of feed is less in Alberta than it is in Quebec. This happens to be one outstanding example of the fact that these cost of production studies frequently produce results which very few people are willing to accept.
I think this arises from the fact that the various people carrying on these activities use somewhat different criteria in determining what costs should or should not be included, and there is also the fact that from one farm to another operations vary greatly.
I have received, for example, all kinds of letters from farmers in western Canada saying that the cost of production for their pigs would come to $25 or $30 per hundred pounds.
Supply-Agriculture
On the other hand I noticed when I was in Winnipeg some two months ago that a man who had won one of the chief prizes for swine at the Brandon winter fair had produced a fairly detailed breakdown of his cost of production, which showed that his cost per hog, not per hundred pounds, was around $21. This would mean around $15 per hundred pounds. This is just one example of the extreme variation between farmers and between areas as to what they calculate their cost of production to be, and perhaps what they actually are, because of the differences in efficiency and so on.


Samuel Boulanger: I wonder if I heard what the minister said correctly. Did he say that the price index for a number of services used by farmers is higher in western Canada than in Quebec?


Douglas Scott Harkness: No. What I said, Mr. Chairman, was that one of these cost of production studies concerning hogs showed that the cost of production was less in Quebec than in Alberta. I think everybody realizes that just could not be so, because the cost of feed is much lower in Alberta than it is in Quebec, and that is the big item in raising hogs.


Maurice Bourget: Could the minister give us a list of the universities or other scientific organizations in Canada that are receiving grants from this branch?


Douglas Scott Harkness: We make grants to a large number of universities. Does the hon. member want the whole list, which comprises some three of these long pages, or is he interested in a particular university which gets one of these grants?


Maurice Bourget: In order to avoid delaying the work of the committee, I wonder if the minister could put the list on Hansard. In this way we would have the list without the minister having to take the time to read all the names. I would appreciate it very much if the minister, with unanimous consent, could put the list on Hansard.


Douglas Scott Harkness: I would be glad to do that with the consent of the committee, Mr. Chairman.


The Chairman:: Is the committee agreeable to the minister putting this list on Hansard at this point in our procedings?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
[Editor's note: The list referred to is as follows:]

Supply-Agriculture
Project No.
Institution
Project title
14
54
59
69
80
87
94
96
99
U. of Saskatchewan	 The physiology of host-parasite relationships among the
Saskatoon	rusts.
Prof. M. Shaw
U. of Manitoba	 Physiological studies of host-parasite relationships in rust fungi
Winnipeg	involving effects of chemicals that may modify rust
reaction.
Profs. E. R. Waygood and P. K. Isaac
U. of Alberta	 The building of rust resistant wheat species combining species
Edmonton	crossing and nonosomic techniques.
Prof. J. Unrau
U. of Ottawa	 Tick paralysis-physiological and pharmacological study.
Ottawa	Prof. M. F. Murnaghan
U. of Alberta	 Investigations of mutagenic effects of agricultural chemicals
Edmonton	on plants.
Prof. J. Unrau
Macdonald College	 Physiological effects of stock-scion relationships in Malusspp.
P.Q.	Dr. C. D. Taper
U. of Toronto	 Growth and morphogenesis in the Canadian forest species.
Toronto	Prof. D. Forward
U. of Saskatchewan	 Fluctuations in the composition of Saskatchewan grassland
Saskatoon	vegetation in relation to meteorological conditions.
Prof. R. T. Coupland
U. of Saskatchewan	 Life history studies of persistent perennial weeds.
Saskatoon	Prof. R. T. Coupland
U. of Saskatchewan	 Studies on the physiological control of seed dormancy in wild
Saskatoon	oats (arena fatua L.)
U. of Manitoba	 Experimental analysis of the chemotactic factors that affect
Winnipeg	the host plant relationships of grasshoppers.
Prof. A. J. Thorsteinson
British Columbia research council... The physical basis of insect repellency.
Vancouver	Dr. R. H. Wright
Ontario Agricultural College	 Studies on lactobacilli from Cheddar cheese.
Guelph	Prof. D. M. Irvine
U. of Saskatchewan	 The relationship of soil moisture stress to the growth charac-
Saskatoon	teristics and protein content of wheat.
Prof. W. L. Hutcheon
Queen's University	 The synthesis of phosphoglyceric, succinic, aspartic acids and
Kingston	other substances relating to quality in tobacco.
Prof. G. Krotkov
U. of British Columbia	 Phosphate fixation in calcareous soils.
Vancouver	Prof. J. S. Clark
Queen's University, Kingston
U. of British Columbia
Macdonald College, P.Q.
Macdonald College, P.Q.
The use of serological techniques in determining the roleTof invertebrate predators (especially spiders) in the population dynamics of the spruce budworm.
Prof. A. S. West
Ecological classification of pine forests in the interior region of B. C.
Prof. V. J. Krajina
The use of in vitro rumen fermentation technique in evaluating feeding value of forages.
Prof. E. W. Crampton
A study of nutritional factors affecting reproduction in mink, with special reference to maximum use of fish and whale products.
Prof. E. W. Crampton
[The Chairman.]

Supply-Agriculture
Project No.	Institution	Project Title101	U. of Toronto	
Toronto	
Cytotaxonomic studies on simulium venustum and related biting flies. Dr. K. H. Rothfels102	Ontario Agricultural College	
Guelph	
Contract farming in Ontario. Prof. W. D. Hopper104	Ontario Agricultural College	
Guelph	Prof. Wright106	Queen's University	
Kingston	
The metabolism of photosynthetic products in roots of tree seedlings under different light conditions. Prof. G. Krotkov107	U. of British Columbia	
Vancouver	
Studies on anion uptake as affected by soil moisture levels. Dr. J. E. Beaton108	Macdonald College	
Quebec	Canada. Prof. W. A. DeLong109	U. of British Columbia	
Vancouver	
Screening irrigation of water supplies-biological and physical aspects. Prof. T. L. CoulthartNEW PROJECTS110	U. of Alberta	
Edmonton	butter. Prof. F. W. Wood111	U. of British Columbia	
Vancouver	
A study of the enzymes in milk responsible for the reduction of resazurin. Prof. J. J. R. Campbell


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I am very interested in this question of agricultural research. I made my remarks on the first item and I do not intend to repeat them, but I should like the minister to inform the house to what extent all the research conducted under this item is correlated with the results of the research undertaken by the experimental farms, illustration stations, universities and those making studies under the economics division. That is my first question, and I ask it in order to get a total picture of the results of the research.
My second question is, what co-operation has been established with the Farm Credit Corporation? I think there should be very close co-operation, so the corporation would have a sound knowledge of the productive capacity of any area or for any particular crop. So far as the experimental stations are concerned, we all recognize the good work that has been undertaken by the stations generally. I know that in the British Columbia interior we appreciate the work that has been undertaken by the station at Summerland and the diffusion of the results of their research. However, that station is situated in the Okanagan, and we have a variety of climates in southeastern British Columbia. Quite frequently you will find a change of climate within a few miles which will have a
bearing on the growing of certain fruits, whether they are tree fruits or small fruits.
I want to suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the department could use the personnel of experimental stations to good advantage in getting a very complete knowledge of the suitability of each area within the area sowed by an experimental station for the growing of certain crops, the production of cattle or any of the various agricultural activities. I mention this because of my experience throughout the years, first of all with the Canadian farm loan board. We now have the Canadian Farm Credit Corporation, but we cannot expect too much of it at present because it is just getting organized. I have met representatives of the Canadian farm loan board who were completely lacking in information concerning the suitability of certain areas, certain lands, for the growing of crops.
I mention that particularly because in our district, as I have said before, we have so many diverse circumstances. I know of one small valley, about seven miles long, which is suitable for stock raising. There is a very nutritious mountain grass growing in that valley. 1 know of a successful farmer who had a considerable acreage in that valley and who applied for a loan, but was rejected

Supply-Agriculture
without any official coming to the area to examine local conditions. I do not think that is good enough. I suggest there could be much more co-operation between those undertaking studies of this nature under this research branch and those who are responsible for lending money to farmers.
Finally, as I said, there is such a diversity of conditions that, for instance, in the Arrow lakes area you can grow Delicious apples, yet 20 miles to the north the heat is such that you cannot grow Delicious apples. I wish to suggest, therefore, that there should be an extension of the experimental stations. I am not suggesting anything extensive. I think the department could use more of the farms in the area to demonstrate their suitability for growing certain tree fruits, small fruits, and so on. For instance, in the Renata area peaches are grown to excellent advantage; but 30 miles to the north, under what would appear to the casual observer to be identical conditions, one would be ill-advised to go into the production of peaches.
I should like the minister's comments in this connection, because I think our staff could be used to good advantage in making studies of these regional and local conditions.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Mr. Chairman, in so far as what you might call a general survey of the activities of the research branch is concerned, or the magnitude of this work, I think the amount of the vote, which for this year is a little more than $30 million out of a total for the whole department of $106 million, indicates the importance we attach to research. The fact that we are allocating to research something in the neighbourhood of 30 per cent of the total funds available to this department is a good indication of the importance we attach to it. The research branch, of course, carries on an extremely wide variety of research into such things as forest biology problems, all sorts of insect pests, all kinds of plant breeding, plant diseases and so on.
I do not believe I should take more of the time of the committee at this moment to go into the hundreds of different types of research projects which are carried on by the research branch. I am sure the hon. member has a very good idea of the vast amount of detailed scientific work which is done by this branch in an endeavour to produce better varieties of plants and animals, to guard against diseases which attack them, to evolve means of eradicating these pests or keep them under control.
As far as a tie-in with economic research is concerned, there is of course a great tie-in
[Mr. Herridge.l
in that regard. The economists in the research branch collaborate closely with the people on the experimental farms and so forth, particularly with regard to studies as to the suitability of a particular area for a certain type of production. An area might be quite suitable from the purely physical point of view, but in reference to the distance from markets and so forth it might not be a practical operation to produce a certain type of product in that area. As I say, there is very close co-operation between the economics people on the experimental farms on the one hand and the research branch people on the other hand with regard to matters of that kind.
As to greater study of soils and climates in particular areas, may I say that up to the present time there have been soil surveys for most of the settled areas of Canada. There has been a classification of those soils with regard to what you might call geologic type, and also from the point of view of what they are capable of producing. This consideration, of course, is tied in with the climatic conditions in the particular areas. As the hon. member knows-and he made some mention of the fact-we have a large number of illustration stations and illustration farms where particular experiments are carried on in order to see whether a particular type of plant is suited to growth in that area. That sort of thing is taking place constantly on a very widespread scale.
As to loans and a tie-in between the Farm Credit Corporation and the research branch, may I say that there has been throughout, under the Veterans' Land Act, quite a close tie-in between the regional supervisors and credit advisers under the Veterans Land Act, who now are also acting as regional supervisors and credit advisers for the Farm Credit Corporation, and the local agronomists in Quebec and district agriculturists in other parts of Canada, and also with the dominion Department of Agriculture.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I think that is a big improvement in administration.


Mr. Baldwin:: I should like to make a few comments on what I think is one of the most important of the many-pronged attacks which will have to be launched in connection with the problems of agriculture. I refer to the question of research into rural development or rural redevelopment. Some time ago I observed that the United States department of agriculture were concerned, and had been since 1956, with this important phase of agricultural research, and I wrote for and obtained some of their pamphlets. By the way, if any hon. member should be particularly interested, may I say that I have a number of these pamphlets here. I am thinking particularly of

the hon. member for Essex East, who made his contribution in the debate a little while ago. I should be glad to arrange a seminar with him if he is interested in these pamphlets.
We in the Peace river country have a particular interest in this matter. We have been largely and primarily an agricultural district which is now in the process of transition to one with secondary industries. Just recently we held in the city of Grande Prairie a northwest resources conference which dealt in large measure with agriculture and the bringing into an agricultural area of secondary industries. We had present some well-known figures, including Mr. J. E. Brownlee, whom I regard as one of our leading statesmen of agriculture, and Dean Bentley of the faculty of agriculture of the University of Alberta.
This particular aspect of research, as indicated in correspondence and in the pamphlets from the United States department of agriculture, has a great future as far as we in Canada are concerned. I was most gratified to observe that our Department of Agriculture, under the guidance of the present minister, had commenced research into this problem, and the United States people mentioned the communications and the contacts they had with the minister and his department.
I am going to refer just briefly to one pamphlet which I received from the United States department with regard to what they consider to be the beneficial effects of this program of rural redevelopment. I am now referring to a pamphlet entitled "Committee for Rural Development Program" under date of January 21, 1960, issued in Washington. It is an answer to the question "What happens when industry moves to the country?" and it gives the effect of the analysis and studies which have been made of this program as it affects a number of states in the United States. The pamphlet reads in part as follows:
States included are Louisiana, Mississippi, Iowa, Utah, and Ohio. In these five states, studies in selected rural areas with new industrial plants have turned up some significant findings ... For example:
Rural people who obtain jobs in the new factories moving into their area are much younger than average residents of employable age. The average factory worker in the areas under study is about 30 years old. This compares with an average of 50 years for heads of farm families in the same area.
Industry also increases the income of many rural people, . . . The living standard of those who find jobs in the new plants has gone up at a faster rate than that of other rural residents. Incomes of plant workers equal, and in many cases exceed, incomes of average families in the same community.
Plant workers were found to be among the leaders in rural community organizations and
Supply-Agriculture
groups ... Rural residents who find jobs in local industry continue to take an active part in community and religious affairs, the studies indicate.
About one in four plant workers in areas studied operate farms.
Their farms are usually smaller than the average in the community.
Farmers usually reduce their operations after taking an industry job. Farmers working in plants studied had reduced the number of days they farmed as much as 50 per cent,...
Just to sum up, may I say that I think here is an excellent example of a blending together of all that is best in the agricultural way of life with those benefits which come from mingling with some other form of industrial activity. I am glad to see the interest which our department is taking in the matter. I feel that if this research is pressed it will result in at least some alleviation of the situation which affects agriculture today; a situation in which, in some cases unfortunately, efficient farmers, through no fault of their own, may well be compelled to give up their holdings and move into larger urban centres in order to take industrial employment for which they have no particular training, with a consequent increase in the seasonal type of unemployment. I think the incentive of this program is one very much to be desired, and it is one which I commend to the minister.
At one o'clock the committee took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The committee resumed at 2.30 p.m.
Douglas Scott Harkness: Mr. Chairman, immediately before the luncheon recess the hon. member for Peace River had been speaking of the rural redevelopment program in the United States. I am extremely glad to hear of his interest in this subject. It is one which I hope will be shared to a constantly increasing extent by all hon. members of the house.
I do not think we can over-emphasize the importance of the introduction of a rural redevelopment scheme in Canada. We have been working on this now for the last year and a half to two years and we hope to be in a position sometime before the end of this year to be able to make some definite proposals as far as instituting a rural development scheme in Canada which would be adapted to Canadian conditions. Hon. members are probably aware that a group of economists and agriculturists from the department made quite an extensive trip down to the United States to observe their rural redevelopment program and to study it during last year and, as I say, we are now actively working on a program of our own.

Supply-Agriculture


Mr. Forgie:: Mr. Chairman, the minister has heard me on this before, but I do take an interest in farm products because I did take a great interest in the soybean business. We had a plant in Toronto which developed into a $2.5 million plant, and I am wondering whether any research work is being done along these lines, particularly in the two western provinces of Manitoba and Saskatchewan.
It has always been my belief, rightly or wrongly, that if this soybean, which is a legume, could be developed successfully in the province of Manitoba it would forestall a great amount of wheat growing and probably allow the farmers a better livelihood than they have at present. The development in Ontario has been spectacular. They started in 1934 with two or three thousand acres and at the present time I think the figures show
176.000	acres in southwestern Ontario, in seven, eight, or nine counties in the district.
As a matter of interest, I would like to say that in 1955 we exported from Canada
945.000	bushels to the United Kingdom; in 1956, 1,119,000 bushels; and in 1957, 1,508,000 bushels. We exported to Germany in 1954 27,600 odd bushels; in 1955, 7,000 bushels; in 1956, 56,000 bushels; and in 1957, 44,800 bushels. Of course, that is not a large export, but at the same time if this crop can be successfully developed in the western provinces then we will have a further opportunity of exporting soybeans to the continent of Europe where they are in great demand in such countries as Denmark and other countries where they are used for feed purposes. If that could be done we would considerably enhance our foreign trade.
Mr. Chairman, if I can give one illustration to show how important research work is on this question. In 1935 a friend and I who had the first soybean plant gave the farmers of Pelee island 400 bushels of soybeans as a present. For at least the last 20 years Pelee island has been shipping through the Toronto elevators a crop worth $350,000 each year. So one can see it is a matter to be taken seriously and I am wondering whether the dominion government uses any of its research money on soybeans or whether it is left solely to the provinces.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Mr. Chairman, as the hon. member for Renfrew North has said, I have been aware of his interest in soybeans and the development of a soybean industry and of the steps he has taken himself to promote that industry in Canada. We have through our research activities done a great deal with soybeans. As a matter of fact, the variety Haro-soy, which is perhaps now the one most widely used of any variety grown in Canada, was

developed at Harrow at our experimental station there. Experimentation is continuing with the purpose in mind of producing soybean varieties which are better adapted to other areas; varieties with a shorter growing season which would be hardier, and so on. By this means we hope to be able very considerably to extend the area in which soybeans can be grown successfully in Canada.


James Moffat Forgie: Just one other observation before I sit down. I thank the minister for that explanation. As he knows, about 1935 or 1936 we started to grow a few acres in conjunction with Dr. McCloskey in Winnipeg. I have forgotten whether it was at the University of Manitoba or the agricultural section, but anyway there are now about 15,000 acres of soybeans growing at Morden, Manitoba, as I understand it, and the great difficulty is that of the development of a bean-is this right? -which would ripen before the early frost and, second, a bean which would have sufficient oil content. They are the two problems, are they not, in connection with the work going on?


Douglas Scott Harkness: I would just say in that regard that work on soybeans has increased quite considerably recently at our station at Morden, Manitoba, particularly having in mind producing a type of soybean which would give a better oil yield and have a shorter growing season. We hope to develop strains which will prove more hardy and need a shorter growing season. This would enable the planting area to be extended through the Red river valley.


Mr. Forbes:: I was interested in this item because it is one which relates to farm production costs. I should like to refer to the statement made by Mr. J. P. Hudson who conducted a farm management study for the University of Manitoba. Mr. Hudson told the annual meeting of the agricultural bureau of the Winnipeg chamber of commerce that operating costs for an average size farm had gone up to $15,238 annually from $4,800 about 15 years ago. Of every $1.13 an average Manitoba farmer receives, he needs $1 to cover expenses, and only earns 13 cents.
I was wondering whether the federal Department of Agriculture makes any contribution toward research of this type. If we examine Mr. Hudson's report a little further we find that the price of farm machinery is one of the largest items of expense. I would suggest that representatives of farm implement manufacturers should appear before the committee on agriculture with a view to determinating why machinery prices have increased by approximately 100



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per cent during the last ten years. Does the department carry out research into the cost of production of farm machinery and its relationship to farm costs?
Douglas Scott Harkness: We have been carrying out some studies along those lines, but this question really comes under the economics branch rather than the research branch which, as I have said, carries out scientific research more from the point of view of the natural scientists. We have also been co-operating with people in the universities and elsewhere, in various provinces, who are engaged in studies along the lines which the hon. member suggested. As far as the particular matter of farm machinery costs goes, it really amounts to this: the increase in the cost of farm machinery is due to the same factors which have brought about an increase in the prices of practically all manufactured goods, namely the generally increased cost of labour, materials and so on.


Mr. Hicks:: I do not want to delay the passing of these estimates, but I believe I would be remiss if I did not say a word about the great research branch of our Department of Agriculture. Having been on the experimental farm at Agassiz for 37 years and, two years prior to that, at La-combe, Alberta, and also at Brandon, Manitoba, I feel I know something about the past and present of this fine institution which I have no hesitation in saying is one of the greatest of its kind in the whole world. These great dominion experimental farms and research services are amalgamated now, but at first all the research work was done on the experimental farms. Not too long ago the research service and the experimental farm service were separated. Now they have been amalgamated again, and it seems to me that that is all to the good, because all those who are qualified and interested in certain aspects of the work are able to work together as a team in their efforts to solve the problems which arise.
This particular item concerns assistance for research work. I do not think it covers universities. Perhaps all hon. members present do not know that the federal Department of Agriculture makes small grants to the universities in respect of certain agricultural work. Then there is a great deal of co-operation between the federal Department of Agriculture, the universities and the provincial departments of agriculture. Some hon. members may have the idea, I imagine, that there is a great deal of duplication in this work, but I can assure them that such is not the case-it is not a matter of duplication, but of cooperation. Some of the trials which are carried
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on are carried on in several different places around Canada simultaneously, with the result that more is achieved in one year than could have been achieved in many years under the old system.
I feel that this fine research work which is being carried out is closely related to the salaries paid to our best men. If it is necessary to pay increased salaries to our best men in order to retain their services, I believe this should be done. If the funds available are restricted, I suggest it is far better that we should eliminate some of the work which is of lesser importance in order that we may retain the services of our top men, men who have for years and years been learning this job. We do not wish to see them walk off to some other country to take up other posts with implement companies or industrial concerns. Let us keep our top research men in the country.
In closing may I say that the people who work in the Department of Agriculture belong to one of the greatest groups in the whole civil service; they are dedicated men and they are not too worried about whether it is five o'clock, six o'clock or nine o'clock when they finish their tasks.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I
should like to take this opportunity to say a few words about the serious condition facing the tomato industry in British Columbia. This industry has been in serious difficulties over the past several years, so much so that during the last three years it has been necessary to sustain it by the protection of the stabilization act.
There are many contributing factors to the decline of the British Columbia tomato industry, an industry which has been established in the province for over 50 years. I am informed by highly qualified people, commenting on the situation that exists in the Okanagan valley, that one of the most pressing necessities is to find a new strain of tomatoes, plants particularly adapted to the soil and climatic conditions of southern British Columbia, particularly the Okanagan and Kamloops areas. A few years ago-as recently as 1958-the experimental farm at Summer-land did valuable work on the development of a strain of tomatoes resistant to disease. This was an effective program, and valuable results were achieved, but it is clearly obvious that if the industry is going to continue in British Columbia this other problem of developing tomato varieties specially suitable for growth in the south central section must be tackled.
The people engaged in the industry have told me many times that the reason why there has been such a tremendous growth in the

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tomato industry in California, a growth which has had such detrimental effects on the industry in British Columbia and elsewhere in Canada, is because for years California undertook a program of research to develop tomato strains particularly suitable to their climatic and soil conditions and as a consequence of that research their production today is probably the greatest on the North American continent.
I realize that not all the solution of this problem of agriculture in British Columbia is to be found in a research program but I would ask the minister to seriously consider the suggestions which have originated in the industry and to accept the fact that there is room for a research program to be undertaken probably at Summerland to develop strains of tomatoes that will increase both the production and volume of the industry in British Columbia so that the industry can survive without artificial assistance.


Mr. Pugh:: Mr. Chairman, I listened with interest to the words spoken by the hon. member for Fraser Valley and the hon. member for Okanagan-Revelstoke. I should like to take this opportunity of saying a few words about the Summerland experimental farm without going into too great detail. I have often wondered the extent to which Canadians realize the tremendous amount of important work that is done by this experimental farm in the Okanagan valley. Your appreciation of it increases when you think of the many things they are working on including varieties of trees, the development of various strains with the assistance of the British Columbia fruit growers in deciding on what they should do, research into what fertilizers to use, experiments with spraying and spraying materials and finally the byproducts which are many and for which a great deal of credit is due to the experimental farm. I cannot resist mentioning the last great success they had which was something that is not advertised in the province of British Columbia; I refer to their excellent apple cider.


Mr. Rapp:: Mr. Chairman, I should like to ask the minister a question or two. Could he give us some information about the grants that are given to the University of Saskatchewan and the national research council in Saskatoon? Lately they have made wonderful research discoveries with respect to edible oils and their use. In his remarks a week ago the minister mentioned that his department had set up some pilot plants to ascertain how some of these edible oils could be improved or made more readily available through commercial markets. Perhaps the minister would amplify those statements.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Mr. Chairman, I should like to thank the hon. member for Fraser Valley for his remarks. He is uniquely qualified to speak with knowledge in this committee on the work of the experimental farms and the research branch of this department.
The hon. member for Okanagan-Revelstoke raised a matter about which there was some discussion last Friday, the tomato situation in British Columbia. I should like to assure him that research is continuing in attempts to produce better varieties of tomatoes in that part of the country. That work is being carried on at Summerland.
I should like to say, however, as I said last Friday, that I think the main difficulty with respect to tomato production in that part of British Columbia is the lack of humus in the soil. It is a matter of improving the richness of the soil in that regard more than anything else, I believe, if the production per acre of tomatoes is to be increased to the point where it will be an economic operation.
The hon. member for Okanagan Boundary mentioned briefly the experimental station we have at Summerland. This station has done an extraordinary amount of good work as far as horticulture is concerned and particularly in terms of fruit growing. That work is continuing at an even more greatly increased tempo than in the past.
The hon. member for Humboldt-Melfort mentioned something I referred to last week, the setting up of a pilot plant to determine to what extent rapeseed might be made use of in the production of margarine. This was done by a commercial concern which is in the business of manufacturing margarine and was not done by the department itself.


Mr. Winch:: Mr. Chairman, I am sorry I did not hear all the remarks about vegetable production in British Columbia and particularly with respect to tomato production and canning in the Okanagan area but I heard a little of what was said and would ask the minister to reconsider and review the latter question. I was pleased about the information given by the minister when I raised this matter the other day and I appreciate the fact that he came to me afterwards and showed me certain graphs, charts, records and the results of investigations made by his department under his instructions relative to the situation. I immediately dispatched to interested persons in my riding a copy of Hansard for that day telling them I was interested more in their comments on what the minister had to say that day than in what I had said. Perhaps he could answer some of the questions raised by the replies I received.

I have in my hand one letter a copy of which I understand was sent to the previous speaker and I am surprised he did not mention it in his remarks. May I read part of the letter I just received on this matter addressed to myself under date of May 5 and referring to the remarks the minister made last week:
I am more than surprised at the remarks of Mr. Harkness. Except for one, these statements are untrue, or only half-truths. The wages paid on B.C. farms are probably higher than those paid in Ontario, but our wages are certainly not too high. They are from $350 per month for skilled farm workmen, and range down to $1 and 75 cents per hour for common labour, and boys and girls from school for harvesting. Piecework rates for harvesting average about double these rates per hour. California farm wages are higher, but Mr. Harkness failed to mention that in California the tomato yield per acre averages more than double B.C. and Ontario because the harvesting season there is more than double in length. He also failed to mention the new strains of tomatoes particularly adapted to California climate were developed largely by federal money.
I believe the previous speaker said that it was not federal money but state money. My information is that it was all federal money.
He did not mention that these same California tomatoes had displaced thousands of acres of tomatoes in central U.S.A. Our farms and canneries of B.C. are more efficient on the average than are those of Ontario and Quebec; otherwise we could not be in business this long with subsidized freight rates favouring canned goods from the east.
Then he refers me to a producer who is also a canner and has this to say:
His company operated a tomato farm of 150 acres in the Kamloops area. They had a brand new tomato factory valued at nearly $200,000. The whole opertion ceased three years ago because of California competition on the coast markets.
I want to emphasize that that is information about an Okanagan canner and producer. He goes on to say:
Our land is not worn out and our yields and quality are better than that of Ontario on the average. We have figures from Ontario agriculturists that show Ontario tomato farms as being smaller than those in B.C. From personal observation I say without fear of successful contradiction that B.C. farms are more mechanized.
They are more mechanized than others in Canada producing the same crop. As I say, this information comes to me as a result of having sent this gentleman a copy of Hansard containing what the minister had to say and asking for this gentleman's comment. That is the reply I received. A few days later I received another letter and in all fairness to the minister I think I should place on the record a part of the letter I received on May 9. It reads in part as follows:
Generally I would say most people think the government missed a pat on the back from grower and labour alike because, as in 1953 and 1959, help for the tomato grower came too late to be
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more than partially effective. It was not possible in the middle of April to get sufficient acreage planted to enable any of the closed canneries to reopen. We will not be operating our cannery to full capacity unless there is better than a normal crop yield.
If nothing of a permanent nature is done for the tomato industry before next March, the Minister of Agriculture could be right when he inferred the money spent to help this industry in 1958, 1959 and 1960 is wasted. His warning that no help will be forthcoming in 1961 does sound strange.
As a city man but one who is very interested in British Columbia and its problems, and having sent what the minister had to say about this matter to this gentleman,
I thought it was only right that I should now convey to the minister the answers I have received in reply to his statement a few days ago and ask him to comment thereon. I would also suggest that possibly there should be a change of mind and that interest in this problem of the Okanagan should be continued in the form of continued assistance but with that assistance being given at a far earlier date than in the past.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Mr. Chairman, I would
suspect that the information the hon. member has just put on the record has come from Mr. Bulman of Bulmans canneries in the Okanagan.


Harold Edward Winch: And the trade unions.


Douglas Scott Harkness: I do not want to carry on a controversy with Mr. Bulman and the trade unions in the Okanagan valley over the tomato situation. However, the figures quoted do indicate the fact that the labour cost there for the handling of tomatoes or for farm labour is considerably higher than in Ontario and higher than for highly qualified farm workers on the prairies who have to handle large combines worth $8,000 to $10,000. What I said last Friday was that there was a very high content of hand labour with respect to some of the tomato production in the Okanagan valley.
However, the general situation, whatever reasons may be given for it, is that the yield of tomatoes in the Okanagan during the period from 1935 to 1945 was actually higher than the yield in California. It was somewhat higher than in California but at the present time it is about half what it is in California. Therefore that indicates that it is not a question so much of the longer growing season. As I say, I am informed by the scientific people, who should know, that one of the basic difficulties in the Okanagan is a lack of humus in the soil. All I can do is pass on that information. In any event, the situation is that whereas during that previous period the yield of tomatoes was actually a bit higher in the Okanagan than in California it is now only about 50 per cent as high

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as California. California has gone away up and the Okanagan has gone up too to some extent, but you have that disparity. I would also point out that while the tomato people of British Columbia have been insistent on having subsidies each year for the last three years to keep them in business, tomato growers in other parts of Canada, which means chiefly Ontario-


Paul Joseph James Martin: Essex county.


Douglas Scott Harkness: -have not asked for subsidies. As a matter of fact, they were not in favour of the subsidy either last year or this year for themselves or the British Columbia producers. They were finally prevailed upon to agree not to oppose a subsidy being given to British Columbia; they were finally persuaded to withdraw their opposition. The fact is that the industry in British Columbia is not producing efficiently enough, or perhaps I should say cheaply enough, to be able to compete. That is the stituation, no matter what reasons may be advanced for it.


Mr. Benidickson:: Mr. Chairman, I imagine that much of the most worth-while research work of this branch finds its centre and leadership at the Ottawa experimental farm. I know that during recent months the minister has been questioned by the many friends of the farm about his policy with respect to land use there, particularly encroachment by buildings. I am sure the minister will be glad to have perhaps the first opportunity this session to indicate what his views are in this respect. Frequently when we visit the farm we see a new building and there are those who are wondering whether or not we will long have this admirable oasis in our capital city if this continues unduly.


Douglas Scott Harkness: I think my views with regard to the central experimental farm are well known and have been very well publicized in the local Ottawa papers. I have stated on numerous occasions that I am opposed to any of this land being alienated for building purposes and that the only buildings that should be erected are the laboratories necessary to carry on the work for which the farm exists. In the two or three years since I have been minister the only construction has been along that line, laboratories for the use of the scientists who are carrying on experimental work at the farm.


Mr. Peters:: I should like to say a few words. We have always been very pleased with the work the federal experimental farms do and we are concerned over the fact that the farm in northern Ontario, that is at Kapuskasing, has not gone ahead in

recent years. The farm originally did a very competent job in the development of new strains of grain and strains of potatoes that were suitable for the northern divide area. This farm has a big contribution to make to the Canadian economy. It is an experimental farm situated on the Arctic slope, and situated also in the great clay belt which eventually will supply, without any doubt, a large percentage of the agricultural produce that will be used in the industrial sections of Ontario.
Over the years, as I say, this farm has served a purpose. However, in recent years it has done less and less in the line of development work according to the information the people who are dependent upon that farm receive. It would seem that the experimental farm at Kapuskasing has several other jobs to do besides the one it has done in the past. One of them, I would suggest, is to help the community in designing a new method of marketing the products of that area. As the great clay belt is deforested our growing season lengthens. As the trees are cut, the water and muskeg situation recedes at a rapid rate and the farmers are able to produce exceptional crops on that northern divide. They have gained world championships in the production of peas, potatoes and one of the types of wheat.
It would seem to me that now we have indicated these things can be done in that part of northern Ontario the department has an obligation to conduct research to aid the people in selling these products. These farmers are a long distance from the markets, and it would seem to me that the experimental farm at Kapuskasing could be used to develop new methods of canning the produce that is available there. In this way the people who are engaged in agricultural production in that area could be helped. Assistance of this type has been given in other parts of the country and in other parts of the world, and the people have been able to can blueberries, small fruits such as cranberries, raspberries, strawberries, and so on. It would seem to me that since these fruits grow profusely in that area in their natural state work could be done by the federal government at the experimental station to domesticate some of these varieties, such as blueberries and cranberries. Other countries have been able to do this and are now sending blueberries into Canada. In the past, we have never been able to ship blueberries in refrigerator cars to markets like New York. It would seem to me, Mr. Chairman, that the experimental station at Kapuskasing could be reorganized so that more work could be done in the development of methods

of processing and handling all the products that are readily produced in that area.
I think there is another field of agricultural research that could be followed in northern Ontario. I am sure the minister has received requests from the federation of agriculture, and particularly from the farm unions in Timiskaming, with relation to the agricultural lime problem. We have agricultural lime available in that area. There are quite large deposits, and it would seem to me that the government could offer-


Douglas Scott Harkness: Mr. Chairman, there is a special item here in connection with lime assistance and I think we should deal with this matter under that item rather than under experimental farms.


William Arnold Peters: I am well aware of the subvention on agricultural lime. What I am saying is that the government could give some assistance in the form of research to aid in the development of this lime deposit. It would seem to me this problem would fall into the research category. We have not the facilities in northern Ontario to ascertain whether or not this lime, when it is crushed into the proper size, is water soluble, has the proper calcium content or contains too much dolomite or some of the other impurities. I feel some assistance could be given to the farmers in that area in the research line which would help them improve their self-sufficiency in that area.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Mr. Chairman, if the hon. member thinks that the work at Kapuskasing is being reduced, he has a complete misconception of it. This is a very large research station. We have 54 employees there who are carrying on a very wide variety of research activities. It is true that in recent years the emphasis has been put more on pasture crops, forage crops, livestock and so forth, for the very reason the hon. member mentioned that there should be a tie-in with what can be marketed. The fact is that livestock can be marketed to much greater advantage in that area than can grain crops and other crops of that kind. It is for that reason we have emphasized pasture crops, pasture management and livestock to a greater extent in recent years at that particular station.
However, the station does carry on, as I say, a wide variety of activities, namely animal husbandry; apiculture, that is the testing of hybrid bees, the flight behaviour of foraging bees; cereal testing on all kinds of special hybrid material to improve varieties of oats and barley to make them more adaptable for northern areas; the production and foundation of registered grains, to promote the use of varieties recommended, and so on.
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There are field husbandry studies in drainage, soil tillage and fertility; management of heavy clay soils; pasture improvement and so forth. I have already mentioned forage crops. Then, in horticulture there is the testing of small fruits and vegetables; methods of producing vegetables within a spruce windbreak versus open growing. Then in the field of poultry, there is the controlled housing experiment on poultry, and things along that line. As I say, this is a very large and active experimental station. It is carrying on a great deal of work which I think is of considerable advantage not only to the area in which the station is situated but to all areas in much the same latitude and with the same soil.
In so far as blueberries are concerned, we concentrate our blueberry research in the maritime provinces. We have done a great deal of it there. The results of that research are just as applicable to the area around Kapuskasing as to the area in which the research is conducted. It is the same as the situation with respect to experiments in the improvement of the Hereford breed which is carried on in Alberta. The results of these experiments are applicable right across Canada, just as they are in the particular area in which the experiments are being conducted.
Then in so far as lime is concerned, there have been all kinds of experiments with regard to lime. All the information derived from these experiments has been published. I do not believe there is any shortage of either research or information. There is plenty of information available on the results of research in connection with the use of lime, and if farmers want to ask for it they can get it.


William Arnold Peters: In reply may I say that I did not want to imply that the Kapuskasing station was not serving a satisfactory function. It is doing so. It may be said that I owe my understanding of experimental farms to the fact that I lived on one all my early life. My father was the manager of an experimental farm at New Liskeard. I was just suggesting that in the Kapuskasing area-and in fact this farm has been in existence for a period beginning prior to the first world war-we have reached the point of having done the experimenting that is necessary in grains and have been able to produce remarkable crops in that area. Now the problem is as to what we are going to do with the crop when we produce it. There is nobody to buy it. It is too far from the market to ship it any place.
I am suggesting that probably the experimental farm might give some assistance in marketing procedures, particularly in connection with peas. For instance the best peas in the world are grown there, as has been proven in open competition in world fairs.

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We have no canning factory at all in that area. The closest canning factory was in New Liskeard and that factory has been closed down for a number years. It would appear to me that the experimental farm could do a service to the area now by assisting in that field of what in industry is called prefabrication. I am not sure what you would call it in agriculture. I refer to the field in which they assist in packaging or in canning or in making ready for market the product which they can produce.
With respect to the work on limestone, I am aware of the fact that information on the conditions of soil is readily available to the farmers throughout the area and also as to the type of limestone. My complaint is that a number of farmers themselves have small quarries on their farms or in the immediate area and they do not know-and they have asked me to find out-whether there is available any assistance to help develop enough of a sample of this limestone so that they will know whether it is worth while to put in a plant or a crusher so they can use it on their own farms. Some of the limestone is not suitable for use as agricultural lime and this is the field in which I was interested.
The limestone in the Earlton area in particular is of a grade which would be suitable if made available for agriculture. It may be possible that through the Department of Agriculture they could send samples of this limestone to the department of mines and have the crushing done there and also a analysis which would indicate whether this was a feasible operation for developing agricultural lime in our own area. As the minister is well aware, they have already taken advantage of the agricultural lime subventions in Timis-kaming in recent years and there is a growing need for lime. I think there would be some advantage to the government as well as to the people there if it could be produced on a local basis.


Douglas Scott Harkness: As to the local lime or limestone which exists there, may I say that if the farmers there wish to send in samples we would be glad to test them out and advise as to what their best use would be and so on. The actual distribution of the limestone under the assistance program is carried on by the province. We pay part of the cost and the province pays part of the cost, but the actual distribution is carried on by the province. The province would be the place to get in touch with if the farmers wish to work up a sale for this lime for the joint dominion-provincial subsidized distribution.


Mr. Horner (Acadia):: This item has to do with research under the national research council. At Saskatoon Mr. Craig, who I think

is head of the department out there, made a statement which was published in the Alberta Wheat Pool Budget to the effect that if one third of the vegetable oils used in margarine consumed in Canada was rapeseed oil that would create a need for 300,000 acres of rapeseed to be grown in Canada. I wonder whether the minister can report on this pilot plant that has been set up to ascertain whether rapeseed oil could not be used in margarine. I wonder whether this pilot plant is a direct part of the national research council or whether some university is undertaking this work. Just where does it come in?


Douglas Scott Harkness: Of course there is no question at all that rapeseed oil can be used in the production of margarine. It has been used in Europe for that purpose for the last 60 years or 70 years. As I said a bit earlier, this pilot plant was set up by a private company. I had a considerable number of conversations with the management of this company, and asked them particularly to set up this plant to ascertain what could be done. Their complaint about using rapeseed oil in the manufacture of margarine in this country was along the line that they use certain formulae and that if they change the formula they may lose the advantage of the advertising they have done in order to publicize that particular type of margarine. The purpose of the pilot plant was in order to see to what extent quantities of rapeseed oil could be used in the manufacture of margarine without changing what you might call the texture, or the taste or anything else of that particular brand and also to ascertain the extent to which margarine could be produced which would be acceptable if made more or less completely or to a large extent from rapeseed oil.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I want to raise only one matter on this item but I raise it because it is of particular importance to a number of people in my constituency. An interest is being taken in the question not only by farmers organizations but by chambers of commerce and other organizations. They are showing a renewed interest in the development of agriculture in the Kootenays. The first orchards in the Kootenays were planted in a period from 50 years to 40 years ago, generally speaking. There were a few in existence prior to that time, but the bulk of them were planted in that period. Consequently they have now come to the end of their major production period and on account of aging and so on many of them have gone into decay and there is no production on a good number of those orchards. I am speaking with some experience.

I have had 50 years' experience as a very small tree fruit farmer and I know what I am talking about when it comes to the matter of tree fruits. The experience throughout the years has indicated that in the Kootenay area-and I am talking about west Kootenay particularly-owing to the cool nights and the particular soil conditions and the climatic conditions in general, any replanting should be largely of certain varieties of pears and of cherries. Possibly the top quality cherries produced in Canada are produced there owing to the local climatic conditions and soil conditions. However, the old cherry orchards in many cases have been affected by little cherry disease and the planting of new cherry orchards is being delayed awaiting the results of the investigation into little cherry disease or the production of a variety that will be proof against the virus of little cherry disease. I know of one instance in which a man is waiting to plant 10 acres in cherries but is afraid to do so until there is some assurance that the varieties he plants will be proof against little cherry disease or that some remedy has been found for little cherry disease.
My question is this. In view of the great importance of this problem in certain areas in the Kootenays and the fact that if some solution can be found it will mean the planting of hundreds of acres of cherries in the area, which planting is now being delayed, can the minister tell the committee the results to date with respect to research into little cherry disease so far as the orchards that are planted are concerned and so far as the production of new varieties that will be free of the virus of little cherry disease is concerned.


Douglas Scott Harkness: I am informed that we are doing as much work on this little cherry disease as the department thinks can usefully be done. Apparently a great deal of classification of material is required in order to try to get a variety of trees or plants which are not subject to little cherry disease. We actually have a man in Japan at the present time classifying material there in an attempt to get species for breeding purposes for use in this country which will be or are immune to this little cherry disease. The problem has not yet been solved but I am informed that we think we are making a considerable amount of progress.


Harold Edward Winch: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if
the minister could comment on the situation as regards research into the use and processing of strawberries. I am naturally most interested in strawberries living as I do only a few miles from the Fraser valley which,
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as I pointed out on a previous occasion, I think it can be said without any honest contradiction produces the finest strawberries in the world. It has been a declining agricultural industry and I would like to ask if any work has been done at all by way of research or any other type of study or planning in order to maintain that industry.
I ask that question because I completely fail to understand why, with the productive capacities of many parts of Canada, in particular the Fraser valley area of British Columbia, at a time like this in Vancouver, Burlington and right here in Ottawa, fresh frozen strawberries come from California and Holland. I completely fail to grasp the reason for that situation in view of the fine strawberries that can be grown and have been grown in British Columbia. Can the minister make any comment on the situation?


Douglas Scott Harkness: Mr. Chairman, as far as
the latter statement is concerned, about the only comment I can make is that in my experience in these matters when you look into any particular situation you find in most cases it is due to economic conditions that imports come into one part of the country, although perhaps not into another part, of some particular product such as strawberries.
As far as research into the processing end of things is concerned, we have been carrying on some research in order to develop better shipping and better freezing varieties. The demand at the present time is getting to be more and more for frozen strawberries rather than canned strawberries, and as a result of that we have been attempting to develop varieties which will stand up better to shipping so that the chances of shipping strawberries fresh over great distances would be extended.


Harold Edward Winch: Perhaps I was a little misunderstood. If you go into an Ottawa store today to buy strawberries you will see the York brand of fresh frozen strawberries. You cannot tell me that they can produce fresh frozen strawberries at this time of the year in Holland or the United States any more than we can in the Fraser valley. Therefore they must be strawberries which were grown months ago. They cannot be grown in greenhouses. I have never heard of strawberries being grown in greenhouses in my life, and therefore it must be due to some system of processing. If they can do it in Holland and the United States, how come we cannot do it or are not doing it in British Columbia? Is any thought being given to this situation?

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Douglas Scott Harkness: Of course we are doing a lot in the way of frozen fruits and vegetables. We are freezing strawberries in Canada, and I believe we are doing that in the Fraser valley. But as regards frozen strawberires at the present time from the United States, they might well be strawberries growing now in some of the more southerly states. The ones imported from Holland I would think must be ones carried over from last year. But in any event we do freeze strawberries in this country, and quite a lot of our consumption of frozen strawberries, I think, are of our own production.


Harold Edward Winch: Try and buy some in Ottawa.


Douglas Scott Harkness: It may be that the ones frozen last year have run out by this time, I do not know. But in any event, as I said last week in answer to the hon. member, I think in connection with pork luncheon meat, you have to expect some imports of quite a few of these commodities. You cannot expect to keep out all the products of other countries if we are to carry on any sort of reasonable freedom of trade at all.


Frank Howard: Mr. Chairman, there is one specific point I wish to deal with and to ask the minister about at this time. I should say, first, that the minister was very kind to write to me earlier in the year indicating that there were to be some personnel changes and transfers in the experimental farm at Smithers, that some of the people were going to be transferred to Prince George. Since that time I have received a number of communications, and more recently a telegram, from people in Smithers who have some misapprehensions about the future of the experimental farm there, and I wonder if the minister would be kind enough to give the committee at this time an indication of what is in store for the experimental farm at Smithers, whether it will be retained as it is at the moment, and with respect to the staff transfers, how many are to be transferred, where they are to be transferred to, what classification or category they would fall into, and things of that nature. Would he give a general indication of the future prospects for the experimental farm at Smithers, because of the thoughts and fears expressed there to the effect that there is an impending closure of that particular farm?


Douglas Scott Harkness: Mr. Chairman, the situation at Smithers is that we have transferred from there two research officers and they are now going to be stationed at the farm at Prince George, not very far away. The impression seems to have become current in some quarters out there that this farm will be

closed down and done away with. This is incorrect. I have written to that effect to the Smithers board of trade and some other organizations there who seemed to have that idea and who were writing or wiring me in connection with the matter.
The farm will be continued. The two research officers who were there have been moved to Prince George where their high degree of training can be used much more effectively and efficiently to the benefit of agriculture in the area and in Canada generally than it could with the two of them sitting there more or less isolated from any larger and more specialized research institution.


Frank Howard: Those will be pleasant words to people in Smithers, that the plant there is to be continued. I wonder if the minister could indicate whether there are any other contemplated staff transfers or reductions in staff at that experimental farm, and at the same time indicate what is the present staff strength at that particular farm.


Douglas Scott Harkness: I am just attempting to find what the present strength of the farm is; it has to be looked up in one of these big books here and will take a minute or two. But in any case there is no intention at the present time to reduce the strength of the personnel at the farm any further. The exact work which will be carried on by the farm is under study at the present time and no final determination has been made as to what type of work will be chiefly emphasized at the farm. I now have the number of employees; there are 22 employees there.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Will the minister say a brief word about the experimental station in Woodslee established two years ago in the corn centre of Canada. As the hon. gentleman knows, Essex county is responsible, along with Kent, for 65 per cent of the corn produced in Canada and it would be interesting to know what assessment the minister places on an institution which I think is doing very outstanding work.


Douglas Scott Harkness: As the hon. gentleman knows, the Woodslee station is a substation of the Harrow experimental and research set-up. In a minute I will have the general line-up in connection with what is carried on at Woodslee. The following studies are being made, in particular, at the Woodslee substation.
Evaluation of cropping systems for the improvement of physical condition and productivity of clay soil.
Evaluation of fertilizing materials and methods of applying them in the improvement of crop yields.

Evaluation of tillage methods in the production of cash crops.
Studies on the use of crop residues in the cropping system to maintain soil physical condition.
Studies on rates of planting cash crops in conjunction with fertility levels.
Soil compaction studies as related to cropping systems, soil physical condition and soil moisture.
Studies on soil physical condition as affected by synthetic soil conditioners at different depths and deep rooted legumes.
Study of tile flow characteristics and plant nutrient losses into tile drains under different cropping systems.
Breeding and selection in sweet clover for rootrot resistance in this soil improving crop.
Introduction and observation of new grasses and legumes to determine whether adapted to the area.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
7. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $6,470,910.
William Arnold Peters: May I ask the minister where this acquisition of buildings is taking place? Does this refer to the headquarters here in Ottawa?


Douglas Scott Harkness: No. The buildings listed
here are for stations right across Canada. There are a few laboratory buildings for the central experimental farm included, but the great bulk of the building is on experimental stations scattered across the country.


William Moore Benidickson: Is any expenditure for the hon. minister's proposed new administration building listed under the Department of Public Works estimates?


Douglas Scott Harkness: Yes. If a new administration building is built the vote would be found under the Department of Public Works and the work would be carried on by that department.


William Arnold Peters: May I ask the minister if the provision of animal laboratories in conjunction with the experimental stations is included in this estimate?


Douglas Scott Harkness: The hon. member means the one at Kapuskasing?


William Arnold Peters: Actually I have in mind the station at New Liskeard, which is a provincial station. They have put in laboratories at the Ontario experimental farm there and I was wondering whether the federal government is doing something similar. It would be a laboratory sufficient to carry out tests for tuberculosis and similar work.
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Douglas Scott Harkness: I do not know what kind of laboratories have been put in on a provincial farm, naturally, but this vote does include funds for a considerable number of laboratories of different types at different places.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Production and marketing branch-
9. Agricultural products board administration,
Paul Joseph James Martin: Would the minister tell us something about the services which this vote provides?


Douglas Scott Harkness: This is a board which was set up some years ago to buy or sell agricultural products, particularly to sell them on behalf of the government. The board has been used on several occasions in the past to dispose of certain surpluses, and it might well be used again during the next year or two to help us dispose of some of our pork surplus.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Does it deal with wheat surpluses?


Douglas Scott Harkness: No. As the hon. gentleman knows, the selling of wheat comes entirely under the Department of Trade and Commerce.


William Arnold Peters: Has this board any functions with relation to the disposal program under the Colombo plan? Does it deal with transactions of a welfare type? There must be some agency which deals with such matters as this.


Douglas Scott Harkness: This has nothing whatever to do with the Colombo plan. The board was set up, some eight or ten years ago, in the first place in order to import butter when there was a butter shortage in the country. Afterwards it was used to dispose of stocks of meat. Since then it has been comparatively inactive. However, as I say, we might well make a considerable amount of use of it in disposing of the present surplus of canned pork.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I do not know whether this particular problem which is in my mind would come under this item or not, but I suspect, from the outline which the minister has given, that it would. I was tempted to deal with my particular concern when the hon. member for Vancouver South was speaking about the reduction of the tomato crops in the Okanagan valley in British Columbia.
The opposite situation has developed in the county of Essex, which is, of course, one of the great tomato producing counties of this country. I will not enter into superlatives as to which is the best, but I had always understood, in my inexpert interpretation of these

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matters, that the tomato crop in Essex county was in a class by itself. That, however, is not the point. The point is that in the past two or three years the farmers in Essex county, and in a special way in that portion which I have the honour of representing, have been confronted by the Heinz Company and the canneries generally with a forced reduction in the acreage of tomato growing. This represents a very great loss to the farmers of our county.
The minister may say that all this item deals with is not a reduction of acreage but a situation where there is a surplus of production. That would be a fair comment. Now there would be in my area a surplus of production if it were not for this enforced cut by the canneries and others in the acreage devoted to tomato production. Is there anything which this board could do, in the opinion of the minister, to find ways and means of allowing at least normal acreage production to develop; to find ways and means of taking care of the difference in production between what the canneries need and what the farmers are able to produce?
At Easter time I met with a large group of farmers in my own constituency on this problem and I met with farmers in one or two other counties last fall. There is genuine concern about this matter. 1 am wondering if this particular products board could not be invited by the suggestion I am making, if it has any merit, to look into this problem which concerns a large group of farmers and which I am sure applies not only to Essex county but also to Kent and perhaps even to Lambton but in a special way to the county of Essex.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Mr. Chairman, this board has no function whatever in that regard. It is purely what you might call a merchandising board set up by the government of which the hon. gentleman was a member for the specific purpose of buying or selling agricultural commodities on behalf of the government. As I indicated, it has been used only to a limited extent for that purpose.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Would there be any other agency that could undertake this?


Douglas Scott Harkness: As far as the general question raised by the hon. member is concerned, there seems to be a general impression on his part and on the part of some other hon. members that the amount of canning of tomatoes has been reduced materially in Canada. That is not in accord with the facts. Tomato canning has been materially reduced in British Columbia but not in Ontario. The
[Mr. Martin (Essex East) .1
actual figures for the amount of tomatoes canned in the years 1954 to the present time are as follows:
Year	Amount
1954	
43.5	million	pounds1955	
85.9	million	pounds1956	
86.9	million	pounds1957	
76.6	million	pounds1958	
76.7	million	pounds1959	
78.6	million	pounds
In spite of the fact that there has been a material reduction in British Columbia, canning last year was nearly twice what it was in 1954. It was a little less than in 1955 and 1956 but more than in 1957 or 1958.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I appreciate the correctness of the statistics the minister has given but I do not think they alter the point I made. Large canning companies in my county did advise the farmers last year that because they had a surplus of tomato pulp they would simply not require the same acreage production, let us say of a year previous. I went to one of these large canneries myself and having seen the storage of the large quantity of tomato pulp I could quite understand the position that was taken. As a result, however, there was a substantial cut in the acreage. In the case of one company it involved as many as 3,000 farmers. That is a serious situation in any county. What the minister says about the increase in population and additional uses for the product is probably true but it does not alter the fact that the situation as I have indicated exists. I direct this matter to the attention of the minister and his officials in the hope that they will find it possible to give close examination to this problem.


Douglas Scott Harkness: We would be glad to look into the matter but I think the hon. member realizes that in an economy such as ours we cannot force companies to take larger acreages of tomatoes than they are prepared to purchase. The production in fruits and vegetables varies up and down quite a bit. The figures I read indicate that in 1954 there were only 43.5 million pounds of tomatoes canned and the next year there were twice that many, 85.9 million pounds. That is just in the nature of the business. It varies up and down from year to year, sometimes to a marked degree.


Paul Joseph James Martin: But if, for instance, there were a surplus of production, let us say in Essex county, it might be possible to take care of the shortage that exists as reflected in the imports from California into British Columbia. I know that my hon. friend would not want to see Essex county

tomatoes competing against tomatoes grown in British Columbia, but I am sure he would prefer that to competition from California.


William Arnold Peters: Mr. Chairman, has the government given consideration to enlarging the functions and powers of this board? The minister indicated it has not done very much in the last year or two. He referred to some of the things it did including work on imports of butter. I presume he referred to Mr. Howe trading a boat load of butter for a boat load of machinery in which he was interested. In any event the board has not proved entirely satisfactory. I think consideration should be given to enlarging the scope of the board so it could take care of surpluses that are developing and put them into disposable form.
Last year I received representations from various fruit and vegetable growers in the Welland area. I assume other hon. members received them. Why otherwise would they send them to me in northern Ontario? The representations stated that many canning companies in the area were purchased by United States agencies with no intention of operating them. The canning facilities were tied up and the fruit could not be harvested, much of it rotting on the trees. It was necessary to take cherries to the cannery early in the morning in order to dispose of them because some canneries operated only on a partial basis.
Without much expenditure we could establish under this board facilities for canning surplus products thus eliminating waste. I urge the minister to consider this suggestion. This could be worked on a deficiency basis. The produce could be bought at a nominal price and when sold at a later date the complete payment could be made to the producer. I think it would be advantageous both to the consumer and to the people who find it impossible to can these products that are going to waste.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Mr. Chairman, there is no need in the world for any expansion of the activities of this particular board. Actually the hon. member was talking chiefly about operations of the stabilization board. The stabilization board is the board which is responsible for supporting the prices of farm commodities and doing that by the method of purchase, the method of a deficiency payment or whatever method may be decided upon as the best one for the particular product. That has absolutely nothing to do with this particular board we are talking about which was really set up as a stand-by organization so that it could act as the merchandising agent for government stocks or as the purchaser if the government wanted to buy
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stocks, which under the act could not be done by the old agricultural prices support board or by the present agricultural stabilization board.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
10. Agricultural Stabilization Act administration, $315,130.
(Translation):
Samuel Boulanger: Mr. Chairman, on item No. 10, dealing with agricultural prices stabilization, I would like to say a few words about the support price on hogs.
Since the department changed its policy with regard to the support price for hogs, we had a few surprises. The first was that during the first quarter of 1960, we expected to receive about 170,000 hogs a week, while we received an average of only 156,000.
Because of those reduced arrivals, prices have been steady, especially on the eastern market.
In western Canada, where they have the largest hog surplus, prices dropped substantially.
I have here a publication issued by the Canadian packers board for March and April 1960, showing the average premiums obtained on the Toronto, Winnipeg and Calgary markets.
We note, for instance, that in mid-March, the price for pork went down to $16.66 per hundredweight in Calgary, to $17.25 in Winnipeg and to $19 in Toronto. They went up later on, increasing by about 19 cents in western Canada, but scarcely by 2 or 3 cents in Toronto and Montreal.
What is strange is that prices kept falling in spite of decreased arrivals. There are reasons for that. First, we are told that hog shipments to the United States have decreased by 30 per cent.
A second reason is the equalization payments that the federal government requires from exporters in order to ensure that cuts from carcasses subject to deficiency payments will not be exported at less than floor prices.
At mid-March prices stood at 7 cents a pound for plain cuts. This is the result of an unenlightened policy that was established by the government on the basis of ill-timed considerations.
In view of the situation facing hog breeders at present, I should like to direct a few questions to the minister.
First, I would like to ask him if he can tell us about the production outlook for the next half-yearly periods and about the expected prices?

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(Text):


Douglas Scott Harkness: We estimate that pork production during the next six months will be down approximately 16 per cent from what it was last year. The fact that the production of hogs is down indicates that the deficiency payment method of supporting the price, which was put into effect at the first of the year although it was announced nearly a year ago that this was going to be done, has been effective in helping to bring the production of hogs into line with what can be marketed during the next six months at a reasonably satisfactory figure.
If we had not taken the action we did of changing the method of support for hogs there is no question at all in my mind that at the present time the production of hogs would be several per cent higher than at this time last year rather than being more than 12 per cent lower than what it was at this time last year. Over the year it is anticipated that production will run perhaps 16 per cent lower than last year. It was essential to bring production into line with what can be consumed in this country and marketed abroad because we were rapidly getting into the position where there was not enough storage space in Canada to hold the pork chilled. As a result we had to can a considerable amount and the demand for canned pork is not very extensive anywhere.
Therefore, as I say, we had already reached a position where a change absolutely had to be made. We could not continue piling up surplus pork. The change which was made has been successful in bringing production down so that it is much more nearly in line with the demand. At the same time the prices which have been received have not been very greatly below the national average support price of $22.65 a hundred. As a matter of fact, from January 1 to April 2 the average price received for hogs across Canada was $20.55. That is $2.10 a hundred less than the support price which means, of course, that a deficiency payment of that amount was due farmers as of that date. This varies, of course, from week to week depending on what the price of hogs is during each week.


Hazen Robert Argue: But there would not necessarily be any deficiency payment paid.


Douglas Scott Harkness: No, that is correct, not necessarily.
(Translation):


Samuel Boulanger: Mr. Chairman, I see that the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Harkness) is satisfied with his price support policy for farm products because he has been able to dispose of, or to diminish, the stocks of pork we had in storage.

If I remember well, that was not the object of the legislation when the agricultural stabilization act was passed. The object was to establish prices related to the cost price, as according to the legislation the government wanted to hand back to the farmers the share in the national revenue to which they were entitled. The minister is not at all acting in accordance with the spirit of his own legislation. He does not want to protect the farmers. He wants to get rid of surpluses, and in order to prove what I am saying, I shall quote some figures from the production cost index for farm products.
(Text):
In so far as the index numbers of farm prices of agricultural products are concerned, if we take the month of March, 1959 we find the index stood at 441.4, while in the same month this year it was 426.3, a decrease of 15.1 per cent. If we take the price index of a number of commodities and services used by farmers-I have the figures for January, 1960 for all of Canada-we find the index stood at 266.7, while in January of last year it was 269.5. The index of commodities and services used by farmers has increased, while the prices the farmer has received have decreased. This is the situation of the farmer and of the hog producers throughout the country, especially in western Canada where the price of hogs went as low as $16 per hundred pounds.
I say to the minister that was not the policy we adopted under the stabilization board. I have a few other questions to ask the minister. Can he tell us how many pounds of pork and pork products have been imported from the United States since the lifting of the embargo on February 8, 1960?


Douglas Scott Harkness: I have not got the figures here but I believe practically no pork has been imported from the United States since the lifting of the embargo. If there has been any, it has been an extraordinarily limited quantity. When you take into consideration the duty and shipping charges, and particularly when you take into consideration the quality of United States pork, the conditions have not been such as would lend themselves to the movement of United States pork into this country during this period.
I am sorry to hear the hon. member is accusing me of not wishing to support the farmers. He says that all I am interested in is reducing the surplus. This is completely incorrect, of course, and I think all the farmers in the country recognize that we are concerned to secure for them the best prices possible. Our whole work under the stabilization board has been concerned with returning to the farmer as good a price as we could

possibly get for him over a period of time. To maintain an incentive price which causes a very large production, much more than can be marketed, does not help the farmer from the long term point of view. As a matter of fact, this creates a situation in which the farmer is going to take a very severe loss. The best way of stabilizing the farmers' income and maintaining a reasonable income for them in connection with any particular product over a period of time is to ensure that the production of that product is not greater than the amount we can market. Once we get into a position where production is considerably greater than the amount we can market then eventually the farmer is going to have to take a severe cut in price at some time and he will suffer accordingly.
In order to avoid a situation of that sort we changed the method of support for hogs. As I have indicated, and contrary to what the hon. member has been saying, the prices of hogs have not dropped very much below the support levels. He said that in western Canada they did drop to low levels. Actually in western Canada the average prices received for hogs in the first three months of this year were less than the differential which had existed under the old method of support by purchase, as compared with prices in eastern Canada. Had deficiency payments been made at the end of April the amount which would have been received by Manitoba and Saskatchewan hog producers would have been more on the national average basis than on the regional average basis. If the regional average basis had been in effect Manitoba would have received a payment of $1.97 a hundred and Saskatchewan $1.82 a hundred, whereas on a national basis they would have received a payment of $2.10 a hundred. In other words, the idea which the hon. member apparently had that prices in western Canada fell away lower than they did in eastern Canada is just not correct.
(Translation):


Samuel Boulanger: The Minister of Agriculture knows very well how to dodge our questions. He quoted some figures which had nothing to do with my question. The point I wanted to make, and I did mention it, was that the Agricultural Stabilization Act which was passed in 1958 did not tend to protect farmers' revenue, but to put a stop to surpluses.
I have here a list of prices which I received from the Minister of Agriculture. I mentioned before that the price of bacon from 1947 to 1956 inclusive, was $27.16 per 100 pounds, while from 1957 to 1959, that price had fallen to $26.19. However, as I said 79951-0-245
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earlier, production costs had increased, whereas prices have gone down. And people try to make our farmers believe that they are protected by our passing a law on farm prices support.
That is the point I wanted to make; but, as usual, when I submit some arguments which he cannot refute, the minister circumvents the question.
(Text):


Douglas Scott Harkness: I must say, with all respect, that the hon. member never brings forward an argument that I cannot contradict. He says he is asking a question when, actually, he is making a statement which is, in most cases, not supported by the facts. He stated the stabilization act was not passed with the idea of helping farmers. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I think there is nobody, probably even in this chamber, who believes that statement. The stabilization act was passed with the idea of improving the general income position of farmers. It has proved extremely beneficial in that regard.
At one time the hon. member was complaining about the amount of money we had paid to farmers under the stabilization act. Last year we paid in the neighbourhood of $57 million to farmers under this act in order to support the prices of agricultural products. The hon. member was complaining about the amount of money we were spending-


Paul Joseph James Martin: Oh, no.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Oh, yes.


Paul Joseph James Martin: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman; I remember what the hon. gentleman said. What he said was that he was sorry more of that money did not go to the farmers; that is what he was complaining about.


Douglas Scott Harkness: As a matter of fact all the benefit of the $57 million went to the farmers. Actually the farmers got the benefit of at least two or three times that amount. So far as dairy products alone are concerned, for example, in the calendar year 1958 we made expenditures to support dairy products in the neighbourhood of $10 million or $12 million. The prices which the farmers received for their dairy products were at least $90 million to $100 million more than they would have received had this support not been in operation. In other words, the actual amount of money which is spent under the stabilization act is no measure of the value of the act to the farmers so far as an increase in income is concerned and the case of the dairy farmers is an outstanding example of that. The world price of dairy products is about half what it is in Canada.

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Were it not for the stabilization act and the prices we guaranteed under it for dairy products, the prices dairy farmers would have received during the past two years to three years for their dairy products would have beeen very much less than those they received. As I say, in that one calendar year 1958 the amount would have been about $90 million to $100 million less than they actually obtained.
(Translation):


Mr. Belzile:: Mr. Chairman, before item No. 10 is adopted, I should like to say a few words about it.
Before dealing with the suggestions I propose to make to the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Harkness), I should like to point out to the house that I deeply regret the harsh words which the hon. member for Drummond-Arthabaska (Mr. Boulanger) said, a moment ago, about the Minister of Agriculture, i.e. that the policy of the Department of Agriculture tended to prevent the accumulation of surpluses rather than help farmers.
For my part, I feel that the Minister of Agriculture is doing all he can to help the agricultural class in all respects and particularly in regard to farm prices stabilization.
I am not afraid to say that, if I had been Minister of Agriculture, having to dispose of a surplus of 78 million pounds of butter, I would have hesitated a few days before deciding to maintain the support price on butter at 64 cents a pound for the current year until May 30, 1961.
I believe that because of this decision, the federal Minister of Agriculture certainly did not deserve to be accused of working for the reduction of agricultural production, rather than for the agriculture class generally.
Personally, I am happy to congratulate the Minister of Agriculture for the wise decision he took about the price of butter. I participated actively in this request because I was among those who asked the Minister of Agriculture for special consideration on this matter. I was glad to see that he responded favourably to our pressure. On behalf of all the agricultural class of my province and of the country, I wholeheartedly thank him for that.
And now, Mr. Chairman, there is another product which comes under the ambit of the agricultural stabilization act. I refer to wool.
It is estimated that last year's production is slightly over that of 1958, which was 5,755,556 pounds.
If this happens, the Canadian wool production will have increased for the second consecutive year. In 1957, a total of 4,112,000 pounds were sold.
[Mr. Harkness.l
The improvement in the wool market in 1959 resulted in a general price increase, and in an immediate drop of 7 cents a pound in the deficiency payment.
According to the daily DBS bulletin dated March 6, 1960, wool production in Canada went up from 7,624,000 pounds in 1958 to
8.287.000	in 1959, or an increase of 8.7 per cent. Between those two years, the shorn wool production went up from 6,345,000 to 6,800,000 pounds and the pulled wool production from 1,279,000 to 1,487,000 pounds.
From 1958 to 1959, Canadian wool exports increased from 4,002,000 to 5,002,000 pounds (greasy wool basis) and imports rose from
42.209.000	to 51,492,000 pounds.
If stocks had remained the same, Canadian consumption in 1959 would amount to
54.777.000	pounds, that is, an increase of one fifth over the 45,831,000 pounds of the previous year.
In the light of all the figures I have just quoted, it would seem that the value of the product has helped improve our domestic market and our markets abroad, in such a way that the margin of deficiency prices has gone down 7 cents a pound, as compared to last year.
I think this figure is an indication that it would be a good thing to broaden the scale wool production and, consequently, of sheep breeding.
In the province of Quebec-and I am convinced it is the same in several areas of Ontario and of the maritimes-certain farmers find sheep breeding a paying proposition.
Rocky farms which produce very little and are very costly, are ideal for sheep breeding.
Sheep breeding is not very costly. In fact, the cost of buildings is low; the required manpower is not large; the operation involves very little expense. Therefore, in my opinion, it would be a good thing to encourage sheep breeding.
Now would be the time-and it would be good for agricultural economy in general- for the federal government, in co-operation with provincial governments, to launch an intensive propaganda program for the information of our farmers, at least for those who would be interested in sheep breeding and for those whose farms would be suitable to that type of breeding. It would be a good thing, as I say, to organize such an educational program to promote sheep breeding.
I am convinced that the federal and provincial departments of agriculture could devise an educational program which would

advantageously meet the needs of our farmers and of the people of Canada in general.
(Text):


Mr. McMillan:: I just want to ask two or three questions. I was wondering whether the annual report for 1958-59 of the agricultural stabilization board is the last one or whether there is one for 1960 as well?


Douglas Scott Harkness: No. The 1959-60 one is not out yet.


William Hector McMillan: This is the last one I have and I did not know whether there was a later one.


Douglas Scott Harkness: The last one was the one for 1958-59.


William Hector McMillan: At the end of March 31, 1959 inventory for commodities on hand was $66 million. I just want to ask the minister what the amount was as at March 31, 1960.


Douglas Scott Harkness: What page were you reading from, if I may ask?


William Hector McMillan: From the 1958-59 report, about the second page; they are not numbered.
Mr. Chairman, there are one or two other questions I will ask at the same time. I was wondering how in the non-mandatory commodities the price supports or deficiency payments were arrived at. I notice in some cases that the support prices are as high as 112 per cent of the ten-year average and they drop down to 80 per cent of the ten-year average. I am not finding fault with any particular one of these, but, for instance, wools are 110 per cent and I think there are some other commodities which go up as high as 112 per per cent.
I would also like to know why most of these commodities have a support price while in the case of asparagus grown in my particular part of the country there is a deficiency payment of three cents under 18 cents. I know that if the farmer gets 15 cents at the factory and he gets his three cents deficiency payment he will then be getting the support price, or 86 per cent of the ten-year average. But in my part of the country I think, last year at least, the price fell to 14 cents and below 14 cents, so that they were not getting as much as if they had had a support price of 18 cents, which I think the minister did hope the farmers would get at that time.


Douglas Scott Harkness: As far as asparagus is concerned there was no support price last year.


William Hector McMillan: No, a deficiency payment.


Douglas Scott Harkness: The asparagus growers did not ask for a support price last year so apparently they did not want one.
79951-0-245^
Supply-Agriculture
As far as the stocks held by the board as at March 31, which I think was the date the hon. member asked for, we had at that time 63.7 million pounds of butter. There seems to have been a general idea that we were holding at that time, or subsequent to that time, something in the nature of 75 million or 78 million pounds of butter. I believe one hon. member mentioned 78 million pounds a little while ago. But that is not the actual fact. We were holding as at March 31, 63.7 million pounds. The total stock in the country was about 75 million to 78 million pounds. Naturally there are always several million pounds being held by wholesalers, retail stores, and so on. As far as eggs are concerned we did not have any. We held five million pounds of dried skim milk; 1.5 million pounds of cheese; 2.6 million pounds of raspberries; 33.5 million pounds of frozen pork cuts; 97 million pounds of canned pork- these are all round figures to the nearest one hundred thousand-and 8.3 million pounds of canned hams. These were the stocks held by the stabilization board as at March 31.


William Hector McMillan: Only one other question, Mr. Chairman. I asked the minister how they arrived at the support price of the non-mandatory commodities. In some cases they reached 112 per cent, 110 per cent, 90 per cent, 95 per cent, down to 80 per cent. I was wondering how these prices were arrived at.


Douglas Scott Harkness: The level of support for any of these commodities is arrived at, first of all, on the basis of attempting to give to the farmer his cost of production; then in addition to that, as much above the cost of production as conditions will warrant. The best example is the one which the hon. member for Matapedia-Matane mentioned, sheep. The support price of wool is over 110 per cent and the reason is, as the hon. member mentioned, that we produce a relatively small number of sheep in Canada. It is one of the few agricultural products for which we can afford to increase production. In fact, to have a good, well-rounded agricultural economy we should be producing more sheep in Canada. Therefore we have set a relatively high support price on wool. This is one of the factors you have to take into consideration in setting a support price.
Another very important factor is whether the product can readily be stored or not. As all hon. members realize, there is only a certain amount of cold storage in the country and you cannot afford to pay a support price which will cause a terrific pile-up of a perishable commodity just because you have no place to store it. Therefore the perishability of a commodity and the amount

Supply-Agriculture
of storage available are factors to be taken into consideration in setting the support price. There are probably a dozen different factors which you have to consider in arriving at the level of support which you provide. But as I say, our effort throughout is to provide in every case as high a support price as we can possibly provide, at the same time preventing a unmanageable surplus of the commodity building up.


Hazen Robert Argue: Mr. Chairman, I have a few brief general remarks to make on this item having to do with the Agricultural Stabilization Act. The legislation under which the board operates was passed in this House of Commons on January 25, 1958. It was heralded at that time by the Conservative party and by some farm organizations as being the type of legislation they had been wishing to obtain for many years. They said that at long last they had written into this act a formula which would put a basic minimum floor price under agricultural commodities.
This is not the position taken by the farm organizations today. They realize that this act does not provide a basic minimum floor price below which products cannot fall. This 80 per cent formula which was written into the act in clear English, which I believe any student of the English language would say that if the act were carried out would give producers 80 per cent of a base price on the commodity as a basic floor, is not being followed at this time.
I am not going to argue, and I am not arguing, in favour of large surpluses of eggs, pork, or any other commodity being maintained on an indefinite basis. If there are large surpluses of these products on hand from time to time, then action must be taken to move them into consumption channels either at home or abroad. The minister has said that the old support prices of the former administration, or that kind of method of support, was the thing that led to increasing storage of many agricultural commodities and that the way to take care of this surplus production was to bring in a method of deficiency payments.
I do not believe for one moment that it is the method which has anything to do with the question of the amount that farmers are producing. I think farmers are intelligent enough to know that it is just a question of names; whether the method be called a deficiency payment or a support price makes no difference. What in fact matters is the return to the producer on the grades and the quantities which the farmer has to sell. So it is not a question of technique; it is not a question of a deficiency payment being the best kind of technique; it is that under the
[Mr. Harkness.l
deficiency payment technique the government has established a policy which pays the producers of this country less for their products than they were led to believe would be the results of this legislation. In other words, in my opinion this act as enforced today is proving to be a great hoax as compared with the act which was passed in this house in January, 1958, and what was said about it at that time.
The minister has said that bringing down the deficiency payment on pork has resulted in a decrease in pork production of 16 per cent. The only reason producers of pork will restrict production by 16 per cent is because they feel they are going to get less.


William Moore Benidickson: They sold out at panic prices.


Hazen Robert Argue: Yes, I am wondering about that. I am wondering who made the killing on this type of technique which the government used. However, the producers have reduced production by 16 per cent and the government's deficiency payment technique brings this about precisely because the payments which are being made and which will be made are less than would be paid under a basic support offer to purchase. The minister's own words make this very clear, because he has said that under this particular type of so-called support, Saskatchewan, for example, if I have the figures right, would receive $1.90 a hundred. I do not wish to quote the minister incorrectly, and if I do so it is by inadvertence. Under the other type, they would receive $1.82. That amount of money has been lost to them and I say it has literally been stolen from them and that they have been deprived of something they were told would be theirs under the act.
The government has used its so-called deficiency payments technique, not to provide farmers with a support price under the act but to force the market price downwards- allow it to go downwards-to the point at which the producers have been deprived of something which they felt was rightly theirs under the act.
I have discussed in this house with the former minister of agriculture the type of support prices he used. His offer to purchase was, in general, an offer to purchase from the trade and the price was not always paid to the producers. But I can say-and I say this very frankly-that the percentage of farmers who lost money under the former method is far less than the percentage of farmers who are losing money under this method. This is not using a deficiency payments technique as it was known to us. This is a cold, callous, deliberate attempt to tear

up, if not the letter, then certainly the spirit of the act which was passed by this parliament.
There would not be 47 Conservative members of parliament here from the prairies if the farmers had known that the bottom would fall out of the hog market under this administration; if they had known that 15 cents would be the price of grade A large eggs at certain times and that the deficiency payment on them would be some six cents a dozen. If this had been known there would not have been a corporal's guard from the prairies on that side of the house. But the people of the prairies were told by this government: we have placed a formula in this act which you can read for yourselves; it shows that we are not going to allow support prices to go below 80 per cent of the average price for a ten-year period.
There were other things, besides, placed in that act which have since proved to be misleading. I refer particularly to the provision that the support price would be based on cost of production. We have been trying to find out what studies have been undertaken with regard to cost of production. We have not been able to find that out, and we suggest that this is another part of the act which has not been fulfilled. It is certain that the minister has accomplished his objective to destroy production, or a substantial part of production. It is perfectly true that his actions have resulted in the demoralization of the poultry and egg industry in this country to the point where production is declining, and the forecast is for still less production. That, the minister has accomplished. But in doing so he has broken faith in my opinion with the producers of western Canada.
There are other complaints about the administration of this legislation. These have to do with the announcement which was made the other day on the support price for butter. The hon. member for Matapedia-Matane who spoke a few minutes ago said he had advocated the retention of the support price on butter. Well, if he had advocated it, it was not maintained.


Paul Joseph James Martin: At last year's level.


Hazen Robert Argue: It was not maintained. The minister was not frank enough to tell the house when he was making the initial announcement just what the effect of this new policy would be. The country was led to believe that there was a 64 cents a pound floor under butter as there had been before but, of course, that is not what is taking place. The government has changed the basis of support by changing the basis upon which
Supp ly-A griculture
the 64 cents is provided. As I understand the former policy it was to pay a 64-cent floor price on butter which scored 39-92. The policy now is to pay a 64-cent floor price on butter if it scores 40-93. The 64cent figure is there but the grading arrangements under which a support price of 64 cents a pound has been paid have been changed and this in fact means a very substantial reduction in the farmer's support price.
In a statement on this question in the Western Producer of April 28 the writer had this to say:
The joker in the minister's speech is where he says "scoring 40-93." Only 30 per cent of Canadian butter eligible for the 64-cent floor last year scored 40-93. This means the government will reduce by 70 per cent the amount of butter eligible in the year commencing May 1.
Why was that not in the statement? This article is appropriately entitled, "Let's Have It Straight, Doug".
Mr Martin (Essex East): Was the article by Mr. Hedlin?


Hazen Robert Argue: It appears on the editorial page of the Western Producer for Thursday, April 28, 1960 and the author's name is not given.
The minister is very agile with figures. He will not admit any more than his predecessor would that when farmers are receiving lower prices and getting less money, this is in fact the case. The minister will not admit that deficiency payments mean less money. When I sit down I am sure the minister will stand up and say, "Even though the farmer's price is less, even though the market price is less than the support price, and even though at the end of a given period of time the farmer will receive nothing by way of deficiency payments, this does not mean less money to the farmer." The minister may fool some hon. members of this committee but he does not fool the agricultural producers.


An hon. Member:: And the hon. member for Assiniboia does not fool us.


Hazen Robert Argue: Not only does the deficiency payment technique mean less to the farmers than they are entitled to by law in my opinion and less than they are entitled to by statements made by hon. members of the government including the minister when this legislation was debated in the house, it means that for grades for which there is no support price the farmer is getting less money because deficiency payments are not provided on all grades. When a farmer is paid for lower grades he gets usually a certain proportion of the higher grades. When

Supply-Agriculture
the price of the higher grades falls it brings down the price of the lower grades.
I have examined the submission of the Canadian Federation of Agriculture presented to the government on the question of price supports and the technique followed. In the proposals they suggest that the offer to purchase method means more in the interests of the producer than the method used by the government. The federation speaks for a large part of the farm organizations of Canada. They are not satisfied with this policy.
When the Conservatives were elected in 1957 and re-elected in 1958 some of us thought that with so many new and young members the Conservative party would be different from the old party of the days of R. B. Bennett. It was thought it might become a truly "progressive" Conservative party. We have seen the government in operation for about three years. There is substantial evidence to show that the voices of the members who first wished reform and improvement are being silenced and diminished. The voice of the old reactionary Tory element in the Conservative party is again coming to the fore.
The old Tory policy is the order of the day. That policy is to get rid of price supports as such. That policy does not seek to provide a floor on the market. That policy aims to throw everything possible on the open market. That is the technique being used today: dump eggs and hogs on the open market without any offer to purchase or floor price; turn the farmers back to the tender mercies of the packing companies and let them fend for themselves. In order to give the policy an appearance of being open and to conceal from the producers what is being done, let us talk about the deficiency payment technique and say it is wonderfully successful in curtailing production and reducing surpluses but let us not mention what is happening to the economic returns to the producers of these products.
I do not want my remarks to be taken as opposition to a deficiency payment made as I believe it should be under the terms of this legislation on the basis of a specific grade and the price the farmer receives for that grade of commodity when he takes it to market and not on the basis of averaging out the price which means that approximately 50 per cent of the product will be sold below the price and the farmers themselves have no guarantee of receiving a just price.
If the minister would say to the producer, "We will provide you with a deficiency payment that will bring a return to you for each grade you sell that is being supported, by the difference between the price you receive

and the support price," there would be no objection. But the government says, "Throw it on the market, we will not keep a precise record of the amount you receive for each grade and pay you on that amount but will take the averages and pay you on them." This means the producer does not receive the money provided for under this legislation.
I have said in this chamber as well as to farm organizations on previous occasions that I think it is a shame in a democratic society that a government should bring before parliament legislation which reads in a certain way and tell the producers affected they are entitled to certain basic minimum guarantees on their produce and then by a back door undercover method deny the producers the things to which they believe they are entitled under this measure. In spite of the references made to any other department I do not think the government is carrying out the spirit or the letter of this act. Mr. Chairman, I see that it is five o'clock.


Jacques Flynn: It being five o'clock it is my duty, pursuant to section 3 of standing order 15, to rise, report certain resolutions and request leave to sit again later this day or at the next sitting of the house as the case may be, in order that we may proceed to the consideration of private and public bills.
Resolutions adopted in committee of supply this day reported and concurred in.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Rea):: It being five o'clock the house will proceed to the consideration of private and public bills, the former having precedence, pursuant to section 3 of standing order 15.



PRIVATE BILLS

Mr. Mandziuk:: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask for the unanimous consent of the house to deal with three private bills, namely Bill No. S-22, to incorporate Laurentide Finance Company; Bill No. S-23, respecting International Loan Company; and Bill No. S-18, to incorporate Adanac General Insurance Company of Canada.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Rea):: Is the house willing to give unanimous consent that these three items be referred to the committee of the whole in one motion?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.



CONSIDERED IN COMMITTEE


[Stage Direction]
Bill No. S-22, to incorporate Laurentide Finance Company.

[Stage Direction]
The house in committee on Bill No. S-23, respecting International Loan Company-Mr. Smith (Winnipeg North)-Mr. Rea in the chair.
On clause 1-Change of name.
William Moore Benidickson: Would the sponsor indicate whether or not this company is an affiliate of some other well known company in the finance business and is it a company that will operate under the Small Loans Act? I have not a copy of the bill.


Mr. Smith (Winnipeg North):: International Loan Company is a company operating primarily in the greater Winnipeg area and in western Canada. It is solely concerned with the first mortgage field. The reason it is changing its name is that in the past it has been confused with companies operating under the Small Loans Act whereas it is engaged exclusively in first mortgage loans.


[Stage Direction]
Clause agreed to.
Preamble agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.

[Stage Direction]
The house in committee on Bill No. S-18, to incorporate the Adanac General Insurance Company of Canada-Mr. Halpenny-Mr. Rea in the chair.
Clauses 1 to 8 inclusive agreed to.
On the preamble-
Mr. Regier:: Before we finally finish with this bill, may I say that it was considered by the banking and commerce committee. In effect this company will have to do with people who are buying used cars and who have some difficulty in obtaining insurance if they purchase over the week end. I hope this company, which is being granted the right to operate, is not going to insist that people buy their insurance from this company or be denied the right to purchase a car in the normal manner. I hope the officers of the company will exercise discretion in this regard and not take advantage of purchasers.


[Stage Direction]
Preamble agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.
Private Bills-Divorce

J. Nicholas (Nick) Mandziuk: the third reading of Bill No. SD-43, for the relief of Jean Bras-gold Martz.


Frank Howard: Mr. Chairman -it is so seldom that I see you occupying that particular position, sir, that I referred to you as Mr. Chairman. Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to see you presiding over the affairs of the house. There is one thing I should like to mention with respect to the bill now before us for third reading. I wish to indicate that later, on the basis of the remarks I will make,
I intend to move a certain motion and the remarks I am about to make will lead up to that motion. I should like to refer to the petition for this divorce, which petition is dated December 10, 1958. In clause 6 thereof certain information relating to adultery and the time that adultery is supposed to have taken place is given. That clause reads as follows:
That for the past eight (8) years and-
This is the important part.
-in particular on the 1st day of December, 1958, at the city of Montreal, in the province of Quebec said . .. has committed adultery with one ... who resides at.. . Montreal, Quebec.
An address is given where adultery is alleged to have taken place. I repeat the words, "in particular on the 1st day of December, 1958". From a perusal and reading of the evidence submitted to the Senate committee, with which we dealt extensively in the committee of the whole in considering this particular bill, I submit that that portion of the petition which says, "in particular on the 1st day of December, 1958", has not been proved because of the time element involved in the evidence given by the investigators themselves. They said that only a few minutes elapsed between the time, as they put it, the lights went out and when the respondent answered the door.
I could quote from the evidence on page 12 with reference to that. Mr. Peter Rosen, an investigator, appeared as a witness for the petitioner, and said this:
Shortly after that-
This is after some preceding occurrences.
-about a quarter to twelve, all the lights were out upstairs. Mr. Golden and myself, we went up to the door and we rang the bell. It took a few minutes and a man-the light came on in the vestibule and a man came to the door and he opened the door
Following this they entered the premises and viewed certain things upstairs, the cushions on the bed and things of that nature. I submit, Mr. Speaker, in view of the evidence given about the time element,

Division
the point about adultery in particular on the first day of December, 1958 has not been proved. From the other evidence given here, however, namely the admissions of the respondent and corespondent, as given in evidence by the investigator, to the effect that they had cohabited as man and wife for some nine years, there is indication that adultery could have taken place and probably did over that period of time.
However, the allegation in the petition, "in particular on the 1st day of December, 1958" is not proved, and in this regard we should keep the two coupled together. I suggest the reference in the petition should be removed and the petition amended, just as amendments are made in other petitions from time to time when there are inconsistencies in the petition with the evidence given. In this regard, I feel it would be only proper that the bill be referred back to the miscellaneous private bills committee in order that they may reconsider this particular point and bring the petition more into line with the evidence given before the committee of the other place. Then, the bill could be proceeded with, not on the basis of adultery having taken place in particular on December 1st, 1958, but on the allegation that over the last eight years, because of the common law arrangement, adultery took place during that period of time.
To this end, I would move, seconded by the hon. member for Timiskaming (Mr. Peters):
Hamilton (Notre Dame de Grace)
Hanbidge
Harkness
Henderson
Hicks
Hodgson
Horner (Acadia)
Jones
Kennedy
Kindt
Lambert
Macdonald (Kings)
MacEwan
Maclnnis
MacLean (Queens) MacLean (Winnipeg North Centre) Macquarrie MacRae McFarlane McGrath Mcllraith
McIntosh McLennan Mandziuk Montgomery Muir (Cape Breton North and Victoria) Nowlan Nugent Pearkes Phillips Pugh Rapp Regnier Robinson Rogers Simpson Skoreyko Smallwood Smith (Lincoln)
Smith (Winnipeg North)
Speakman
Spencer
Thomas-72.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Rea):: I declare the amendment lost.
Is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion?


An hon. Member:: On division.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the third time and passed on division.

[Stage Direction]
The house in committee on Bill No. SD-44, for the relief of Lily Schucher Cohen-Mr. McCleave-Mr. Rea in the chair.
Charles Edward Rea: Shall these 51
divorce bills be taken as one item?
That this bill be not now read a third time, but that it be referred back to the miscellaneous private bills committee.


William Arnold Peters: I wish to speak on Bill No.


Charles Edward Rea: Bill No. SD-44.
On clause 1-Marriage dissolved.


William Arnold Peters: Bill No. SD-44 is a petition for the relief of a couple living in the province of Quebec in the city of Montreal. On reading the petition, paragraph 7, we find that it charges adultery in an hotel. In this particular case we have the evidence of two witnesses in the form of private detectives by the names of Peter Rosen, age 38, of Montreal and Abe Golden, age 52, of Montreal.
In this particular case we have the type of case with which we are particularly concerned because it obviously involved collusion and many of the things this house should not agree to in the granting of these divorces. It is pointed out, as you will note from the evidence, that this couple broke up their marriage in February, 1959. In March, 1959 they petitioned parliament and the hearing was held in January, 1960. This gives them approximately 11 months in which to obtain the money for this divorce. As we look

Private Bills-Divorce
through the evidence it is obvious-or certainly it is obvious to me-that as to the $700 which she might have collected and might have been able to save, if she were able to save one quarter of her whole income, the total would have amounted to only $770. As I said, the couple were married in the city of Montreal. The plaintiff was represented by Mr. Blank and he began his questions in relation to the picture as follows:
Q. Is it a good picture of him?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember approximately when that was taken?
A. Approximately three years ago. (Photograph filed marked exhibit No. 2).
The questioning continues and we come to the part of the evidence which interests us:
Q. Were there any children born of this marriage?
A. No.
Q. When did you separate from your husband the last time?
A. Last year, February 1959.
Q. Did you ever separate before that?
A. Several times.
Q. What were the reasons for the separation?
A. He used to tell me that he went out with other women and he bragged about it.
Q. You separated three or four times before the final separation last February?
A. Yes.
They have already, in my opinion, built up the fact that the application for a divorce was inevitable and that anything which may have happened was only the conclusion of a decision they had taken on at least two or three separate occasions. The evidence continues:
Q. Do you know anything about the adultery alleged in paragraph 7, other than what I have told you.
A. No.
Q. Did you condone this adultery in any manner?
A. No.
Q. Did you have anything to do with arranging any adultery or any collusion?
A. No.
By Senator Bradley:
Q. Your husband's name is Joseph Cohen, isn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. That is his true name?
A. Yes.
Q. In the marriage certificate there is a reference to one Joe Cohen?
A. Yes.
Q. That is the certificate that you received from the clergyman when you were married to your husband?
A. That is right.
Q. That is one of the names by which he is known?
A. Yes.
By Senator Barbour:
Q. Were you going to school when you were married?
A. No.
Q. How old were you when you got married?
A. Eighteen.
Q. Did you start and keep house by yourselves?
A. Not right away. I lived with his parents at the beginning for about a year.
79951-0-246
Q. Have you been working since you were married all the time?
A. Yes.
Q. You continued to work right along?
A. Yes.
By the Chairman (Senator Cameron):
Q. From the very beginning?
A. Yes.
By Senator Bradley:
Q. How long is it since you and your husband separated?
A. The last time was last February, 1959.
Q. Have you had any associations with him since of any kind?
A. No.
Q. None at all?
A. No.
Q. You didn't plan this divorce between you, did you?
A. No.
Q. You will not forgive him for what he has done?
A. No.
Then we get to what I consider to be an important part in a number of these divorces. We have often mentioned the fact that we have been told in the miscellaneous and private bills committee that the average for divorces costs $2,500 in the manner in which they are handled in the Senate and the House of Commons. This becomes quite important in my opinion, because it would obviously indicate some agreement between the two parties if the money did not come from a wife who was applying for divorce. Therefore we have this type of questioning which tends to establish that the woman paid for the divorce yet there is no opportunity to decide how she could possibly have paid for it with the wages she is reported to be earning. But the question is asked because it is important, and if the answer were in the negative then I am quite sure there would be some difficulty in the Senate committee allowing this divorce to stand.
The question is asked:
Q. Who is paying for the divorce?
A. Well, I am. I want the divorce.
By Mr. Blank:
Q. Are you finished paying for it yet?
A. No.
Mr. Chairman, if we are going to be of the opinion that this woman is paying for the divorce, then I also assume we would have to agree that Mr. Blank is himself financing part of the divorce. 1 am curious to know what recourse to law Mr. Blank would have if after the divorce is granted he cannot collect his money. I would like to know whether he would have some redress to the court who gave the decree. It also raises the question, I would imagine, how many of these divorces are paid for in this way, and whether there is a payola racket going on where the detective gets some money, the lawyer gets some money, and

Private Bills-Divorce
there is a pay-off between them. It would seem odd to me that a legal firm handling this type of divorce would do it on the instalment basis and would be interested in coming to parliament to ask for divorce until they had a sizeable amount paid in advance.
Senator Bradley asked a question that I am interested in in relation to the problem. He asked:
Q. The liability is yours? You have to do the paying?
A. Yes.
By the Chairman (Senator Cameron):
Q. You said there were several separations before?
A. Yes.
Q. How soon after you were married did the first one take place?
A. About a year and a half.
Q. And the reason?
A. He used to go out with other women and he used to tell me about it.
This is the whole situation, in my opinion, as far as this divorce action is concerned. We have already the information that warrants a separation, and it is my opinion that what follows is only of necessity in obtaining the evidence that the other place has requested and has really nothing to do with the circumstances. Questions are asked-this is the method they used-of Mr. Peter Rosen, who lives in Montreal and who represents himself as an investigator. He is asked:
Q. Will you tell the committee what you know of Mr. Joe Cohen's habits and activities during the month of March, 1959?
A. Well, I investigated his conduct during that month until March 30, 1959, inclusive. During that time I saw Mr. Cohen on several occasions and I also saw him in company of one certain young lady that he saw on four different occasions during that time of investigation. On March 30th he left his home at approximately 8 p.m. and he drove down to St. Urbain street in the neighbourhood of where his girl friend was living. This young lady was standing in front of her door, in front of 5230 St. Urbain street. She got into the car with Mr. Cohen and they drove down town. They went into a restaurant and they were there until about 9.30. They then came out and drove up on McGill College avenue just above Burnside, and Mr. Cohen parked the car and I saw them both getting out of the car and they went into the Campus hotel on McGill College avenue. I waited a minute or so until they were just about inside the hotel and I followed them in. I saw Mr. Cohen speaking to the man at the desk and then they both went upstairs and they went into room 427 in the hotel. I waited on the same floor for about five or ten minutes and I couldn't hear anything and I didn't see either one of them coming out of the room, so I went downstairs to the lobby and I called my man. He met me shortly after 11 o'clock. It was about 11.30 when he arrived and we both went up to room 427 and I knocked at the door and it took a few minutes and a man's voice asked, "Who is it?" and I told him I was the desk clerk and I wanted to speak to him for a minute.
Again we have this same problem. This young man is out with a girl. He is supposed to have met the young lady on four previous occasions. They go to a hotel and get a room.
[Mr. Peters.!
I presume he had no baggage. It does not say he had. Therefore, he had to pay for his hotel room before he got it. That is in keeping with the policy of most hotels I know; people coming in without luggage have to pay in advance. So he pays his bill and goes up to his room. A rap comes on the door, and the desk clerk appears. What happens? I think everyone knows what would normally happen -nothing. Absolutely nothing would happen at that door until the parties inside were dressed and ready to leave the room. I am positive of that.


An hon. Member:: How can you be positive?


William Arnold Peters: I am positive. The hon. member implies that if someone were to rap on his hotel door in the wee hours of the morning he would come out in his shorts or whatever he happened to be wearing. I would not. I have had experience in hotels. I was a salesman, and a traveller on the road and I visited many hotels, and I would not be wandering around in my b.v.d.'s if someone rapped on the door, and this was when I was alone. If there were two people I can give a complete assurance that the door would not be opened. The evidence continues:
As that happened my man and I pushed the door and we were into the room. It was a very small room and the man started to yell and wanted to know what it was all about.
He should have found out by yelling what it was all about before the door was opened and the man came into the room.


An hon. Member:: He could have jumped out of the window.


William Arnold Peters: Yes, I know people who have done just that in the same type of situation. When a rap came on the door they jump out the window. But I know of no one who opened the door. The report goes on:
I showed him the picture I had with me and I asked him if that was his picture and if he was Mr.-. He admitted it was and that he was Mr.- and I told him then we were acting on behalf of his wife.
The woman I saw earlier with Mr.-was lying in the bed and she was covered with a blanket. I then asked the woman for her name and Mr.- at first told her not to say anything. He said. "Do you have to have her name?" and I said yes. He said, "Will she be in any trouble of any kind?" and I said, "There is no trouble, just that we have to have her name and address." And she told me her name was-and that she lived at 5230 St. Urbain Street.
I do not think that was honest, because I do not think he could have given that kind of assurance that there was not going to be any trouble. If he could have done so then he was not going to prove that adultery was taking place. In any case, I suggest that the circumstances-the presence of a young lady who is not too much against giving her name

when she is asked, after a little pressure- seem to indicate an alliance was reached only for the purpose of maintaining the adultery charge necessary to the granting of a divorce.
The fact that the two people were found in a state of undress is an indication to me that this evidence is a plan with a view to the granting of a divorce. Then the detectives go on, as they must, to say something about it. I think all hon. members will agree that there is no indication that adultery did in fact take place. This could have been established in a number of ways. With the permission of the corespondent they could have asked whether adultery had taken place; they could have given the warning which is necessary and then asked the questions which would have established it. But they tried to do it in another way. The evidence goes on:
We noticed the bed she was lying in had two pillows and it was pretty well disarranged. Also we noticed some women's clothing on the chair near the bed and some man's clothing on another chair on the opposite side of the room.
I fail to see how that shows that adultery had taken place in this case. I also think it is surprising that in the limited length of time available so much was observed. No attempt was made by the investigators to indicate that the lady was a prostitute or a common street walker. It is stated that the man had gone out with her a number of times that month and this, to me, would suggest that he was in the room only for the purposes of this petition and that what took place must have been condoned by the respondent. I am sure Senator Bradley felt there was not enough evidence to warrant bringing this case before the Senate committee. Senator Bradley asked:
Q. How was the man himself dressed?
A. He had his pants on but the top part of his body was bare.
Then the lawyer asked some questions, and when he concludes, Senator Barbour indicates the petitioner and asks: "Is this the lady who was in the room there?" To which the answer is: "No".
This evidence is substantiated by the second witness who is, I presume, no more reliable than the other. These are witnesses who appear before us with great regularity. The evidence is always the same. They always, without exception, see either two pillows or two cushions on the bed. They always have the man's clothing on the one chair and the woman's on the other. They always have the woman covered up with a blanket or a sheet. These particular detectives have no imagination at all. They are not like some of the others who dress their young ladies in baby blue pyjamas, or pink nightgowns, or who 79951-0-246J
Private Bills-Divorce
have people wandering around wearing distinctive housecoats. These particular detectives always have the young lady covered up with a sheet or a blanket, and they are very fussy about having two pillows. The questioning continues and the second witness endorses what was said by the previous one, in large part:
Q. Did you have occasion to meet Mr. Rosen at approximately 11 pun. on March 30, 1959 in connection with an investigation of Mr.-?
A. Yes.
Q. Where did you meet him?
A. At the Campus hotel on McGill College avenue.
Q. Will you tell the committee what you observed when you met Mr. Rosen?
A. After knocking at the door it was opened by Mr.-and we forced our way in and he was in the room and had trousers on and the woman was in bed.
Q. Who is he?
A. Mr.-. And he identified the picture and admitted he was the man in the picture. There was a woman in bed and Mr. Rosen went over to this woman and asked her her name and she said it was-. Mr.-then got nasty and asked us to leave the room, and we left. We didn't want to argue with him.
Perhaps the detective wanted to remove the blanket to see if the woman was wearing baby blue pyjamas or something of that nature. We have only the bare essentials of a setting in a hotel to establish adultery for a divorce case.


Gordon Harvey Aiken: Were they covered up?


William Arnold Peters: The only suggestion they were not was where the guy got nasty and-


Gordon Harvey Aiken: I meant the bare essentials.


William Arnold Peters: They appear to have been.
The Senate was concerned about the petitioner's ability to raise money for the divorce. I have no legal training and do not know what argument applies but I assume it is necessary for the petitioner to put up the money for the divorce. If a woman wants to divorce a man she has probably located a prospective husband who is willing to buy her from her husband for the cost of the divorce proceedings. If that is true the going price for women is cheaper in provinces with divorce courts than in those where cases are brought to the House of Commons. The questioning on this point is as follows:
By Senator Barbour:
Q. Witness, what salary do you earn a week or a month?
A. Now, $70 a week.


Mr. Blank:: She is a legal stenographer for one of my competitors.


Mr. Bell (Saint John-Albert):: Where is the once great Liberal party?


William Arnold Peters: I hope that remark refers to the fact that these cases are being handled

Private Bills-Divorce
in the House of Commons rather than in the courts of Quebec, but it may not be. I continue:
By Senator Barbour:
Q. Are you able yourself to finance this suit?
A. Oh yes.
By Mr. Blank:
Q. You are still paying it on the instalment plan?
A. Yes. I still owe some.
She must owe quite a bit unless the lawyer and detectives came more cheaply than in most cases. If she saved one quarter of her money a month it would be a good saving allowing her less than $50 a month on which to live. I doubt if she could save more than $70 a month and in a ten-month period she would have saved only approximately $700.


Mr. Brunsden:: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, is this committee legally sitting? Is there a quorum in the chamber?


Charles Edward Rea: The Clerk advises that there are 21 hon. members present; 22 including myself.


William Arnold Peters: Mr. Chairman, may I call it six o'clock.
Progress reported.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

George James McIlraith: Mr. Speaker, would the house leader indicate the business of the house for the early days of next week?


Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Speaker, the announcement I made on Thursday, May 12 at page 3850 of Hansard will hold true for Monday and Tuesday of next week. I am not in a position to announce the business for the balance of the week. Does the hon. member wish me to repeat the order of business which appears on page 3850?


George James McIlraith: No, Mr. Speaker, there is no need to repeat it if the information is correct.


[Stage Direction]
At six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.

[Stage Direction]
The following answers, deposited with the Clerk of the house, are printed in the official report of debates pursuant to standing order 39:

Mr. Argue: What was the approximate cost of training a pilot for the Royal Canadian Air Force in (a) 1940; (b) 1950; (c) 1960?
Answer by: Mr. Egan Chambers (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of National
Defence):
The approximate costs of training a pilot to "wings" standard in the Royal Canadian Air Force in 1940, 1950 and 1960 are estimated as follows:
(a)	$32,000. In 1940 pilots were trained and paid as airmen and graduated as sergeant pilots or pilot officers. The initial and operating costs of the types of aircraft then in use were considerably lower than in subsequent years.
(b)	$51,000. In 1950 pilots were trained and paid as flight cadets. The initial and operating costs of aircraft had risen sharply over wartime costs.
(c)	$80,000. In 1960 pilots are still trained to "[DOT]wings" standard as flight cadets but jet training has been added. The initial and operating costs of high performance jet aircraft are much greater than the costs of aircraft used in 1950 and the training is more complex.


UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE PROSECUTIONS
Mr. Hicks: Supply-Items Passed
1.	Were any prosecutions recorded during the last year by the unemployment insurance commission in respect to unemployment insurance frauds? If so, how many in each province?
2.	How much money was recovered by the unemployment insurance commission from recipients who were found out to be not entitled to benefits?
Answer by: Hon. Michael Starr (Minister of
Labour):
1.	There were 1,979 prosecutions completed by the unemployment insurance commission during the fiscal year ending March 31, 1960 in respect to unemployment insurance frauds. There are no figures available by provinces, but the regional figures are as follows: Atlantic region, 269; Quebec region, 756; Ontario region, 552; Prairie region, 201; Pacific region, 201.
2.	Money recovered from claimants not entitled to benefits amounted to $2,008,165.65.
[The following Items were passed in committee of supply]:


DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE
[Stage Direction]
Research branch-
5.	Branch administration including an amount of $166,610 for grants in aid of agricultural research in universities and other scientific organizations in Canada, $1,856,156.
Institutes, stations, farms, laboratories and services-
6.	Operation and maintenance, $21,945,838.
7.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $6,470,910.
Production and marketing branch-
8.	Branch administration including contributions to agricultural organizations to assist in the marketing of agricultural products, subject to the approval of treasury board, $908,741.
9.	Agricultural products board administration,

[Stage Direction]
Monday, May 16, 1960