1960-06-17

Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, while I realize that there is never anyone in the galleries, I believe the house will allow me to refer to the fact that we have with us today Paul-Henri Spaak, secretary general of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


John George Diefenbaker: The reception accorded those words of mine indicates the feeling that Canadians have for the secretary general of an organization which stands as a bulwark against the spread of Sovietism throughout Europe and indeed throughout the world. I am sure the house would want me to refer to his presence and assure him that Canadians are strongly and unalterably dedicated to the principles of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization.


Hon. L. B. Pearson (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, it is with a very special pleasure that I rise to support what the Prime Minister has been good enough to say about our distinguished visitor, both on behalf of my party and on my own behalf. I have had the pleasure of working with Mr. Spaak and I know from first hand, as does the Prime Minister, what he has meant for the development of European and Atlantic unity. Indeed, no man has made a greater contribution to that measure of European unity which has been reached, and no man has done more to extend the concept of European unity across the Atlantic.
Perhaps the best tribute we can pay to the greatness of his Atlantic vision is to work in our respective parliaments toward this realization.


Mr. Hazen Argue (Assiniboia):: We in the C.C.F. group wish to associate ourselves with the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition in welcoming our distinguished guest, Paul-Henri Spaak. In addition to his present important position, in the past he
has had a very distinguished political career in his native country. Belgium and Canada have been very closely united in years gone by in a mutual struggle on behalf of democracy and freedom.
We look forward to the development of NATO in the direction of economic co-operation, both among European nations themselves and in the broader north Atlantic community. We think that a greater emphasis on the peaceful purposes and the economic purposes of NATO would be a service to the nations concerned and to mankind in general.



CIVIL DEFENCE


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I wish to table two copies in English and French of a pamphlet on fall-out shelters, which is the subject of a question on the order paper the answer to which will be given through the usual channels and should appear as an appendix to Hansard of today.
In presenting this pamphlet I can do no better than summarize the reasons for it in the words of the foreword, an excerpt from which reads as follows:
The shelter described in this booklet, although not affording protection against the blast of a nuclear explosion or the fires that may result, will provide good protection against the more widespread radiation danger. These shelters will be a practical and reasonable means of insuring one's family against this risk that would arise should a war occur.


EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Lester Bowles Pearson: In view of the reports that are circulating, and in view of the invitation the Prime Minister has recently received, can he tell the house whether he contemplates a visit to Japan in the near future?


John George Diefenbaker: I have not heard anything about that, but the experience of the last few days would not constitute a suggestion of the early probability of such an event.

Inquiries of the Ministry AGRICULTURE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hazen Robert Argue: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture. In view of the very large stocks of creamery butter now held by the agricultural prices stabilization board, can the minister say what steps are being contemplated to reduce the surplus? Can the minister assure the dairy producers of this country that the butter will not be dumped on the open market and thus demoralize the butter market?


Hon. D. S. Harkness (Minister of Agriculture):: Mr. Speaker, there has never been any intention at any time of dumping butter, as the hon. member has expressed it, on the open market in order to demoralize prices. The price support program for dairy products was announced, of course, in April. I indicated at that time that we would engage in a promotional and advertising campaign in an attempt to sell more butter, and I trust that the consumption of butter during this year will be such that we shall not end up the year with a greater supply of butter than we had at the end of the last dairy year.


Hazen Robert Argue: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Will the minister agree that the policy now being followed in regard to butter is much preferable to the policy followed in regard to eggs, which policy has demoralized the egg market?


Douglas Scott Harkness: Mr. Speaker, the two products are entirely different. It has been indicated by me in the house on many occasions that the type of support program which can profitably and practicably be followed for a particular commodity is not necessarily one which can be followed for another commodity. We are making use of several different methods of supporting various agricultural commodities. I think that is the answer to the question the hon. member has posed.



COMBINES INVESTIGATION ACT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. J. W. Pickersgill (Bonavisia-Twillin-gaie):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Minister of Justice whether, for the convenience of hon. members who are considering certain legislation now before the house, he would endeavour to obtain copies of the reasons for judgment in two recent cases
[Mr. Diefenbaker.l
under the Combines Investigation Act and make them available by tabling them in the house, so that members of the house and of the committee could have them.


Hon. E. D. Fulton (Minister of Justice):: Mr. Speaker, I assume the hon. member has reference to the pulpwood case which was decided the other day in Montreal and the other case-


John Whitney Pickersgill: The one that was decided the following day in Toronto.


Edmund Davie Fulton: That is the electrical contractors association. We will be glad to give immediate consideration to the request.



POST OFFICE DEPARTMENT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. P. Deschatelets (Maisonneuve-Rosemont):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Postmaster General. Would the Postmaster General say whether he has received a telegram dated June 9 from Sherbrooke, Quebec, with regard to political activities on the part of a rural mail driver? If so, what steps have been taken by his department?


Hon. W. M. Hamilton (Postmaster General):: I am not aware of having received such a telegram, but I will have an inquiry made.



CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Minister of Justice whether he heard the report on news broadcasts this morning, or had his attention drawn to it, that members of the Chinese community in Prince Rupert had concerted in a refusal to complete forms that they were asked to fill out by the R.C.-M.P. Can the minister also say whether the R.C.M.P. have any authority to require Canadian citizens to fill out such forms?


Edmund Davie Fulton: Mr. Speaker, in replying to this question I should also like to reply at the same time to a question asked yesterday by the hon. member for Skeena. The information I have does not indicate that that is being done. In fact it indicates the R.C.M.P. have not required the filling out of any form of questionnaire. They

are conducting interviews. I think this question is also covered in the fuller reply I should like to give to the question asked yesterday.
Yesterday the hon. member for Skeena asked whether the R.C.M.P. are at present conducting a so-called census, or endeavouring to obtain information by questionnaire of people of Chinese origin across Canada. He also asked under what authority such a census is being undertaken, and requested an indication whether the Chinese people are obliged to answer any such questions.
The R.C.M.P. are not conducting a census of people of Chinese origin across Canada, and this same reply also answers the question as to what authority there is for such a census. The R.C.M.P. are interviewing a number of Chinese and will be doing so for some time to come in an effort to obtain information concerning illegal immigration into Canada. The house will, of course, be aware that no person in Canada is obliged to answer questions asked by a police officer except where a specific statute provides such an obligation. No such statute applies in this case. We are, of course, most hopeful that Chinese Canadians will be willing to cooperate with the police in the present inquiry.


Mr. Frank Howard (Skeena):: A supplementary question. I wonder whether these questions are stemming from the newly established visa and immigration fraud section of the R.C.M.P.


Edmund Davie Fulton: No. I think the answer I have given covers the point. The interviews in question are being carried out in connection with the inquiry into illegal immigration. [Later:]


Hon. Paul Hellyer (Trinity):: I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Justice. Can the minister tell the house whether the information given to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police in these interviews could under any circumstances be used against the person giving the information in any subsequent legal proceedings that might be launched?


Edmund Davie Fulton: Mr. Speaker, I think I am being asked to give a legal opinion here. If the hon. member will consult the hon. member who sits just in front of him and who, I believe, is studying law, I am sure he will get his answer.


John Whitney Pickersgill: May I ask the minister a supplementary question?


Mr. Speaker:: Order.
Inquiries of the Ministry


John Whitney Pickersgill: Would the minister say that the question of the hon. member was on a point of law and not of fact?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. 1 agree with the minister that the question was not appropriate and asked for a legal opinion. I therefore do not see how there can be a supplementary question to an improper one.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: I have a new question. Will the minister assure the house and the country that any information given to the R.C.M.P. in these interviews will under no circumstances be used in evidence in any subsequent legal proceeding against the person giving the information?


Edmund Davie Fulton: I think my hon. friend will realize also, on reflection, that he is asking for a quite improper assurance.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Edmund Davie Fulton: The laws of Canada cover the situation. The attitude of the government has been fully outlined by the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration. It has been stated that the objective of the inquiry is to expose those who have been taking part in an illegal racket, and that in this regard we expect and hope to have the co-operation of the Chinese community who will be benefited by the exposure of the racket and by having their own status regularized as a result.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: I have a supplementary question. Will the minister have the R.C.M.P. warn any person giving information that the questions they are answering could be used in legal proceedings subsequently launched?


Edmund Davie Fulton: The Royal Canadian Mounted Police are a highly trained and skilled police force who carry out their investigations properly in accordance with the law in that regard.



HOUSING


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. R. Garland (Nipissing):: Inquiries of the Ministry I might add, that was voted by parliament for this purpose earlier this year?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I will bring this question to the attention of the Minister of Public Works. I can only say that when any policy is decided upon it will be made known in the house.



DOMINION-PROVINCIAL CONFERENCE INQUIRY AS TO STATUS OP MUNICIPAL REPRESENTATIVES

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hazen Robert Argue: I wish to direct a question to the Prime Minister. It arises out of a very interesting report in this morning's Globe and Mail to the effect that the premier of Ontario will be accompanied by municipal representatives at the coming federal-provincial conference. My question is this. What status will municipal representatives enjoy at this conference? Will they have the right to speak at the conference and to put before the conference the views of their municipal bodies?


John George Diefenbaker: The municipalities are the creation of the several provinces. The provincial delegations may, if they so decide, have representatives of municipalities as part of the provincial representations.


Hazen Robert Argue: My question was whether they will have the right to make representations or presentations to the conference. Will they be called silent observers, or will they be taking part in the proceedings?


John George Diefenbaker: I presume the question of whether or not they will be "silent observers", to appropriate the words of the hon. gentleman, will depend on the premiers of the several provinces.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I should like to ask a supplementary question. Can the Prime Minister indicate in what way the attitude of the present government on this question differs from that of the previous administration?


Hazen Robert Argue: You are both the same.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I think the hon. member realizes that the question is not one for the orders of the day, nor is it the administrative responsibility of the Prime Minister to answer such questions on the orders of the day.



DEFENCE PRODUCTION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. D. M. Fisher (Port Arthur):: I should like to ask a question of the Minister of National Defence as the result of a story in this morning's Globe and Mail to the effect that the army plans to order 500 Bobcats at an expense of $17 million. Has a firm decision now been made?


Hon. G. R. Pearkes (Minister of National Defence):: No, Mr. Speaker. As I am sure hon. members know, we have been developing an armoured fighting vehicle. There is sufficient money in this year's estimates to complete that development, and after the development is completed a decision will be taken as to whether or not we will go into production.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Rea in the chair.



DEPARTMENT OF CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION

[Stage Direction]
46. Departmental administration, $824,266.
Mr. Hardie:: I understand that item 46 was held over for debate on the different branches of the department such as immigration and Indian affairs. I wish the house leader would try to organize the business of this house in a different fashion, because yesterday the committee on Indian affairs was sitting at the same time the estimates of this department were being considered in the house.


The Deputy Chairman:: Order. We are discussing item 46, not procedure.


John Whitney Pickersgill: The hon. member for
Mackenzie River was detained yesterday in the Indian affairs committee which, in my submission, should not have been sitting while this committee of supply was sitting. As a result the hon. member was deprived of an opportunity he ordinarily would have had to put these questions. I think there are also certain other circumstances which, in the minds of all hon. members, will make them feel the hon. member should be permitted to ask these questions. We have given an undertaking that we will not start any general debate and we intend to keep that undertaking, as I assured the hon. lady last night. I should hope the hon. member for Mackenzie River, in view of the peculiar circumstances, would be permitted to ask these questions and that the minister would be kind enough to answer.
JUNE 17. I960	5067


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: I will go along with that and not get into any general debate on Indian affairs in order to expedite the passage of these estimates. I should like to ask the minister if she could tell me what is the policy of the Indian affairs branch with regard to housing for Indians in the Northwest Territories, particularly as that policy covers the building of log or frame houses. I have nothing against the department's program. As a matter of fact, all I have is praise for the department's program on housing in the Northwest Territories.
However, there are some aspects of this program of which I am critical, and of which the people up there are critical. Why is it that in areas in which there is good timber, good logs for housing, the department builds frame houses, while in other areas where the timber is not good for building log houses the department asks the Indians to haul out fourth and fifth grade logs to put into housing? I wish the minister would tell me whether there is any definite policy on this. Why do they build log houses where they have no logs, and why do they build frame houses where they have plenty of logs?


Mrs. Fairclough:: Mr. Chairman, in general, the type of construction is a matter of agreement with the Indians. I do not know this specific case to which the hon. member refers. If he would be good enough to give me the location and the details I should be happy to get him a complete report. Furthermore, if we find that the proper material has not been used, I can assure him we will look into the matter.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: For the residents of Fort Smith, next to Wood Buffalo park where the department of northern affairs claim there is a billion feet of good standing timber, the Indian affairs branch is building frame houses; whereas at Fort Franklin, where there is practically no timber, they are asking the Indians to haul logs to build cabins. At Fort Simpson, where there are plenty of suitable building logs, they build frame dwellings, while in Fort Good Hope, where there are no logs, they are asking the Indians to haul logs for building. There are many other cases about which I will speak to the minister at some other time.
I would also like the minister to tell me what is the general policy with regard to Indian housing. The building of some of these houses is let out on contract. In other places the Indians are asked to provide the labour and the logs to build them. I would also like the hon. lady to give me some information about the new town site at Inuvik where the department of northern affairs erected some 100 buildings. I understand they
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration are turning some of these over for sale to the Indians, but the Indian pays $25 a month rent and the rest goes toward the purchase price of the house. The Indians cannot understand how they can buy and rent at the same time.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Does the hon. member mean they are paying $50 a month?


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: Fifty dollars a month, of which $25 goes against the purchase of the house and $25 is applied as rent. The Indian would like to purchase a house. He does not see why the whole $50 he pays should not be applied against the purchase price.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I do not have the particulars of the case which the hon. member has brought up, but I think this is a rental purchase scheme. I shall be glad to look into it, but it is probably arranged on the same basis as any other rental purchase agreement.
With regard to the other question the hon. member asked, the policy of the department with respect to housing is that the Indian, if he can, contributes to the erection of his own house either in cash, if he has cash either of his own or from the band fund, or through his own labour. Sometimes a man is fully employed, or employed part time, and would prefer to contribute in cash rather than in labour. In other cases where he is not otherwise engaged he would prefer to be working on the house himself. We think it is very important that the Indian should contribute his share of the cost of the house.
Of course the number of houses built depends on the arrangement made with the band. The band itself decides where the houses are needed most. The band knows approximately how many can be constructed in its own area in a given season, and decides who shall have the houses and what contribution is to be made. There is no hard and fast rule that so much is contributed in all cases either in cash or labour; it is a flexible arrangement between the department and the band council, and the Indian is definitely expected to contribute his share toward the house.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: The minister in her reply mentioned co-operation between the agent and the Indians in deciding who is to get a house, and I agree that this does go on. But we have a serious problem raised by the very old people and people who are infirm. For instance, when I last went into Fort Good Hope there were five houses to be built. No one knew when the housing program would start. I went to the tent of a man who was over 70 years of age. He was crippled, and his wife had practically to carry him to the trap line. She did the trapping. I
5068	HOUSE OF
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration asked this man whether he was getting a house, and he told me he was not. I asked him why and his reply was "I am too old". So I went to see the chief and asked him what was the idea. I told him the man was suffering and that he presumably needed a house, one of the five houses allotted. But the chief said "He is too old. If we build a new house he will not live that long." The young people ask why these houses should go to the very old and to people who are only going to live a very short length of time.
This brings up another problem, the problem of homes for the aged and infirm. In the past four or five years both Roman Catholic and Anglican missions have closed down a number of schools and will be closing down hospitals this year at Aklavik. Hospitals and schools have already been closed at Fort Providence and Resolution. I feel the department should give serious consideration to using these buildings as homes for the aged and infirm, and also as means of relieving another serious problem, that of Indian children who are left to fend for themselves after both parents have been taken from home, possibly to enter a tuberculosis hospital. I really think the minister should give consideration to providing one such home at Fort Providence, one at Resolution and at least one at Aklavik to look after this situation.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: As the hon. member says, these are very real problems. I hope the opening of the new regional office at Fort Smith, which I discussed in the committee yesterday, will lead to more adequate supervision of the area. This question of housing for aged persons is another problem, of course. I remember that last summer when I was at Winterburn, west of Edmonton, the band there had set up an old people's community. They had about six houses, and an aged couple was living in each. They were nice little houses and everyone was most happy about it. I am sure the old people themselves were happier than they would have been in an institution.
This problem also requires the co-operation of the band. I do not think the department could move in over the head of the band unless action was taken on an institutional basis and you removed the people from the band and put them in an institution. Again the human element arises, and whether they would want to go is another problem.
I can assure the hon. member that we are looking into this problem. This is one of the matters that have to be faced, and I hope we can come up with a solution concerning what to do about these aged persons.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: The minister announced the establishment of a new regional office in Fort Smith. I am very happy that over the past few years an increasing number of people have been placed in the north by the Indian affairs branch to look after the welfare of the native peoples. However, the progress has been too slow, and we need additional people. In a speech I made in this chamber some years ago I pointed out that there were 23 game wardens in the area I represent and four people working for the Indian affairs branch. In other words there were 23 people looking after the welfare of game and only four looking after the welfare of human beings. The department is still not doing enough, and more men should be put in the field.
Every day I receive letters from places like Snowdrift, where they have not seen an Indian agent for months. It is not the fault of the agent, who has too large an area to cover. Assistant Indian agents should be placed in isolated places such as Snowdrift, Fort Providence and Fort Liard. At Fort Rae we have the largest settlement of Indians in the Northwest Territories, but there is no Indian agent or assistant.
We are told that we have less game, including caribou, than we ever had, but the population of native Indians is increasing. If the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources can sell treasury board on the idea of hiring game wardens and forestry people, a good many of whom are stationed at places where there is no timber, there is no reason why the Indian affairs branch cannot convince treasury board of the genuine need for an increase in staff to look after the human element in our part of the country.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman. I can give the hon. member some information which I think will please him. In the estimates for this year it is indicated that the establishment for Mackenzie district calls for 17 persons.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: Would they be additional
persons?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I think there is an increase of about 13 or 14, which should assist in the situation.


Douglas Mason Fisher: When the minister finds it convenient perhaps she will give us figures on the backlog of applications of potential immigrants from Rome and other places.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I will be pleased to provide the hon. member with the figures he requests. I believe the backlog in Rome is in excess of 63,000. If the hon. member would indicate the countries in which he is interested I will see that he gets the figures.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I am especially interested in Italy and Finland, and I obviously have an academic interest in the Hong Kong situation.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Would the hon. member be satisfied if I sent the information to him?


Douglas Mason Fisher: Yes.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: Mr. Chairman, could the minister tell us what follow up is maintained with respect to Indian boys and girls who leave vocational training schools and take employment? If they find themselves unemployed does the department attempt to find new employment for them?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Yes, Mr. Chairman, that is what we hope to do. I do not know whether the hon. member was present last evening when I spoke about our placement officers in the territories. This is part of our over-all program. One such officer will be working out of Fort Smith. These young people will be placed in employment wherever possible. We propose to follow up that employment and assist them where necessary. In any event we propose to keep an eye on them and see how they are getting along.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: At some stage could the minister give me an idea of the number of graduates from vocational training schools in Yellowknife who have gone into employment, and a brief report on what these young people are doing at the present time?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Yes. We will have to get the information from northern affairs, but we will get it for the hon. member. Until now it has been in their hands, but with the establishment of this new office we expect there will be a change in the situation.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: The education of Indians is a responsibility of northern affairs, but I know the department does not conduct a follow up to see what happens to the graduates of their schools. It is the responsibility of the Indian affairs branch to see what happens to children who graduate and take employment.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I agree, Mr. Chairman. I believe the hon. member misunderstood me. I simply meant that in order to cover the situation in which he is interested we would have to consult with northern affairs, but I assure him that we recognize our responsibilities.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Charles Edward Rea: Shall item 240 carry?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Charles Edward Rea: Shall item 241 carry?
17, 1960	5069
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration


John Whitney Pickersgill: What item is 240?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: It is the administration item covering the national gallery of Canada.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, I think that vote should be regarded as not having carried. I apologize to the committee, but I was engaged in conversation and was not paying adequate attention to the proceedings. Has the hon. lady a statement to make?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Yes I agree with the hon. member; we disposed of that vote very rapidly.
National gallery of Canada-
240. Administration, operation and maintenance including grants as detailed in the estimates, $929,145.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, this year the national gallery of Canada entered upon a new era of its history. In November, 1959 the entire national collection and the personnel maintaining it moved from the old premises in the Victoria memorial museum to the new Lome building on Elgin street in central Ottawa. The move was a highly specialized operation requiring the skilled and careful handling of priceless works of art, a voluminous library, valuable scientific equipment and office furnishing. Thanks to very ably co-ordinated direction I am happy to state that the move was successfully completed without accident, loss or incident of any kind.
The new national gallery of Canada was opened by the Prime Minister, Right Hon. John G. Diefenbaker, before a distinguished gathering of some 3,000 persons on Wednesday evening, February 17, 1960.


Lester Bowles Pearson: All in white ties.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Congratulatory addresses were presented by representatives of museum associations in Europe, the United States and Canada. The occasion was further celebrated by an inaugural loan exhibition of old master paintings, generously and willingly lent by many of the great national collections of the western world.
I am happy to report, too, that since that gala opening evening the national gallery of Canada has established a record of unprecedented attendance. Beginning on February 17 and ending as of the closing hour on June 16, the checked attendance has been 299,163 persons. Should attendance continue as it has begun it will be seen that it is a reasonable conjecture to assume that by next February a million people may have visited and enjoyed the enviable collections on exhibition in the Lome building.
This is a most encouraging demonstration of Canadian public interest in the collections, and in the services which the national gallery
5070	HOUSE OF
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration of Canada provides. It also justifies the confidence this house has shown by its support of careful planning proposed by the board of trustees.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, I should like to make a few observations about this new era. At the beginning I should like to put a few questions to the minister so she can get the necessary information to answer them before the item passes. Can the minister give the date when the new building was started? Can she say who was the minister when the new building was started? Can she say who was the chairman of the board when the new building was started, and who was the director of the national gallery when the new building was started?


Mr. Nesbitt:: Don't you know?


John Whitney Pickersgill: If modesty did not prevent me from doing so perhaps I could give some of that information to the committee myself, but I prefer to have it come officially from the minister.
I must say that it was a great satisfaction to me personally, and I think it was a great satisfaction to all members of the previous administration who authorized the building of the new national gallery and who made every arrangement for it, to see the completion of this great project which they had planned, organized and started.
I must say that on the occasion of that gala white-tie opening by the Prime Minister I was not altogether surprised to be asked by one of those present a question to which I did not know the answer in the context in which it was asked. That question was, "What do we have a governor general for?" The question was put because when the original national gallery was opened in the 1880's it was opened by the Marquis of Lome, who at that time was governor general of Canada. It would have appeared to some of us that this was an occasion of sufficient consequence to have warranted the appearance at that time of the representative of the crown; but I do not intend to labour that point at all.
There are certain unfortunate circumstances that did attend that opening. The most unfortunate of all, I think, was that the man who perhaps had done more than any other person, by his hard work and his enthusiasm, to get the kind of support for the gallery which it now enjoys in this country was not present. I refer to Mr. Alan Jarvis, who "retired" from the position of director shortly before the opening of the gallery. In all the speeches that were made on that occasion his name was not even mentioned. It did seem to me that this was not the kind of generosity, and even good sense,


that there ought to have been on a nonpartisan occasion of this kind on the part of the government of our country.
I do not blame the government for not mentioning the fact that it was the government of Mr. St. Laurent that was responsible for this project. One can understand why they did not mention that. There was the barest mention of the fact that Mr. Percy Fell also had something to do with it but he was at least present. Outside of that it was, it seemed to me, an example of conscious or unconscious partisanship or a sort of private possession on the part of a political party in the government of our country that I think is to be deplored on occasions of that kind. I feel that this ought to be said, not because what was done can be undone but in the hope that this kind of partisan exploitation of the common possessions of all the Canadian people will not happen again.
Now, sir, I do want to say a word or two about some of the unfortunate things that I think have happened in connection with the administration of the national gallery. I think it is very unfortunate that the gallery lost the services of Mr. Jarvis. I do not think that anyone who did not have the experience I had and the experience that some of my colleagues had can calculate the effect of Mr. Jarvis' enthusiasm and drive in creating in this country a support for the national gallery and a public interest in it on the part of all sorts and conditions of people that was really extraordinary. Those very gratifying figures that the minister gave up to the latest date, which I think was last night, of 300,000 people who had already visited the gallery since it opened is, I think, some evidence of the kind of public interest there is in the national gallery and in the arts in this country today.
I do think, too, that it would not be fitting tc refer on this occasion to this development without making a reference to the former governor general of Canada, Right Hon. Vincent Massey, who in every capacity that he has had throughout the course of his distinguished adult life has been a great and discerning patron of the arts, and who, in the contribution he made to those things which are more than bread alone, through the report of his commission and through the other interest he has shown in this matter, should not be forgotten on an occasion of this kind. Indeed, if the government had chosen to invite Mr. Massey to open the national gallery I do not think anyone would have felt that it was a misplaced tribute.
I do not intend to make any great issue- because I am sure Mr. Jarvis does not want any great issue made-of the circumstances of

his retirement. I do not want to say anything unnecessary about other aspects, other unfortunate incidents, that have occurred in the past year. But there are one or two things that it is necessary, in my opinion, to say. The retirement of so distinguished a citizen as Mr. Cleveland Morgan from the board of the national gallery took place in a fashion which caused the Montreal Gazette-which is, I think, normally pretty friendly to the present government and certainly pretty friendly to the party that the present government represents in this house-to say this in an editorial on October 26. The editorial is headed "Too Much Interference" and goes on to say:
It may become increasingly difficult for the government to find good and qualified citizens to serve on independent boards and tribunals, if the government insists on interfering with their policies and decisions.
The latest example of the sort of troubles that are arising is seen in the resignation of Mr. F. Cleveland Morgan of Montreal from the board of trustees of the national gallery of Canada. His resignation follows that of another trustee of the gallery, Mr. C. P. Fell of Toronto.
I am not going to put the rest of the editorial on Hansard. I think it is only characteristic of the difference between their personalities, but not characteristic of the difference in their attitude to the government, that at the time Mr. Morgan resigned Mr. Lawren Harris, who is not only one of the greatest of our artists but a man of extraordinary discernment and capacity in many fields, and who has made a great contribution as a member of the board of the national gallery, also had something to say, and I have here a news clipping from the Vancouver Sun of October 29. It is headed "Harris Adds Voice to Gallery Uproar", and reads as follows:
Vancouver, Oct 28 (CP)-Artist Lawren Harris today added his voice to protests against the federal government appointment of a new chairman of the national art gallery without reference to the trustees. Mr. Harris, a trustee of the gallery for several years, also said the government "hasn't taken any interest at all" in the gallery.
F. Cleveland Morgan of Montreal resigned from the board of trustees in protest against the appointment of Thomas Maher of Quebec city as chairman without consultation with the board. Mr. Harris, however, said he will not resign from the board.
"I think it would be a mistake to resign," he said. "If you resign, you're out. You can't say anything. I'll stay until they force me out."
Mr. Harris added that art dealers all over the world now are suspicious of deals with the Canadian gallery because of the federal government's reversal of a decision to buy a painting by Lorenzo Monaco.
"The government told us to go ahead and a London art dealer bought the painting. Then the government turned around and refused to buy it. This would never have happened with a Liberal government," he said.
79951-0-320
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration
Of course the root of all this trouble is the repudiation by the government of an undertaking made by one of the ministers of the crown, not the present minister but the gentleman who was locum tenens in that department for nearly a year. This repudiation of an undertaking to purchase was one of the shabbiest performances we have ever seen in this country because, as we found last year on the estimates and as ought to be repeated from time to time, the government were perfectly willing to buy the painting as long as they thought it could be paid for out of an appropriation for which they could blame the Liberal government. But when they found there was no appropriation and that they would have to come to the house to ask for an appropriation and assume their own responsibility for it, they ratted. That is the only possible word to use to describe what happened. It has certainly done nothing to enhance the good name of the government.
I know the Minister of Finance takes great exception to the suggestion that the government had any obligation, and in the case of a sovereign government it was not, of course, a legal obligation. No, it was only an obligation of honour. I admit that at once. It was only an obligation of honour, just like the obligation in term 29 of the terms of union with Newfoundland. If this government can find some legal way of weaseling out of obligations of honour, which honourable governments accustomed to fair dealing under the British tradition never do, they think it is perfectly all right, quite justifiable and the right thing to do. I think that as often as possible voices should be raised in parliament to indicate that there are people and political parties in this country who do not believe in that kind of conduct.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Mr. Chairman, the outline of recent happenings and changes at the national gallery given by the hon. member for Bona-vista-Twillingate is fairly close to what would be my own criticism. I think the minister is much more vulnerable in respect of the agencies for which she is responsible than she is so far as the activities of her own department are concerned. I know I want to indicate later how disgraceful I think the situation is with regard to the movement toward a national library.


Charles Edward Rea: Order.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I am not on the national library.


Charles Edward Rea: I was wondering why the hon. member was referring to the national library.


Douglas Mason Fisher: It is one of the cultural agencies for which the minister is responsible. I also
5072	HOUSE OF
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration wish to refer later to the sad state of another cultural agency, the national museum. I wanted to argue that it might be a good idea if we could bring together under one minister some of these cultural agencies which are now scattered. Perhaps the minister might be able to find within the Conservative ranks a member who is sympathetic to cultural things and prepared to give them the kind of encouragement that is needed, encouragement that is especially needed among Conservative members as a whole because I am afraid the antagonism toward art, for example, reflected by the attitude toward the estimates of the gallery and also the way Mr. Jarvis was treated, are a fairly true indication of the feelings of Conservative members.
There was one part of the report of Mr. Lawren Harris' remarks that the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate did not read.


John Whitney Pickersgill: On a question of privilege, I wonder whether the hon. gentleman, unlike the Minister of Justice, would pronounce the old name of Twillingate correctly.


Douglas Mason Fisher: To my mind, if this statement can be accepted as true-and I know that one cannot always accept newspaper stories as fact-Mr. Harris deserves the congratulations of everybody in the country, whether Liberal, Conservative or socialist. Any man who will take the forthright position that he is damned if he is going to go, that he is going to stay and say his piece, certainly deserves a lusty pat on the back. I hope he stays on the board of the national gallery for a long time.
The hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate failed to quote another sentence that I thought he would probably wish to quote. The report I have is found in a different newspaper, the Toronto Star of October 28, 1959, and the sentence reads as follows:
"Conservative governments have never shown any interest whatever in art," he asserted from his home in Vancouver.
I think it is delightful that a man with these beliefs is going to remain on the board and try to do something about them within the framework of the board. This is the kind of dissent and spirit that we need more of in Canada.
With respect to the departure of Mr. Jarvis from the national gallery, I think everyone is aware that to say he resigned is to put a peculiar face upon the matter. I think most of us are aware of what actually happened, and that a resignation under such duress is not really a resignation at all. I do not doubt that Mr. Jarvis is not an easy person for a minister to deal with, but with respect to


artistic matters I would judge that the hon. lady may not be the easiest person to get along with, either.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: That is only supposition.


Douglas Mason Fisher: It seemed to me that she moved with a great deal of stubbornness and bitterness that was uncalled for. In saying that I do not wish to reflect in any way upon the man who has been selected to succeed Mr. Jarvis, because we all know that he has a distinguished reputation in the field. But the very thing about Mr. Jarvis that appealed to me and that appeals to many other people is the sort of thing we see reflected in Mr. Harris, a willingness to take an outright and forthright stand, to be unafraid of criticism or of criticizing in return.
It seems to me we have to make a distinction between a civil servant who is completely an administrator within a department and someone who is responsible for a cultural agency; because the very life of art, literature and philosophy is dissent, disagreement and argument based upon different points of view. From the very great pride that the Prime Minister and the minister seem to have taken in the opening of the gallery and the subsequent events there it would appear that Mr. Jarvis' preparations were not a failure. In other words, what the minister has told us indicates that he was a great success as head of the national gallery, because it is almost impossible to believe that in the short time since he left the new broom or simply the difference in location has brought about the tremendous change now apparent in the new building.
In more particular detail I should like to ask the minister questions relating to the reason for the increase in the budget for the purchase of paintings this year after the very skimpy amount provided last year. The general argument has been made that last year was a bigger spending year than the present one, the estimates for which are now before us. We have the story right down the line that this government got tough this year on spending; that it slashed here and slashed there. The Minister of Public Works is very proud of the pruning job that was done there, and this seems to the case right across the board. However, in this tough year this government changes face in so far as the estimates for the purchase of art are concerned and increases them substantially. I think it is in the magnitude of eight times.
I wonder whether the minister would concede that this alteration is perhaps a result of the departure of Mr. Jarvis; that the situation was deliberately aggraved when he was

head of the national gallery by cutting the estimates so low that it had an effect on the job he was trying to do.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: That is utter nonsense.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Well, I am glad to hear it is utter nonsense. Then I expect that we will get an explanation of the reason.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I gave an explanation last year, but I shall be glad to repeat it.


Douglas Mason Fisher: We will be glad to hear it. It does seem peculiar to find a jump of $160,000 in the straitened circumstances in which the government seems to be this year. I have one specific criticism of the gallery which is the result of my attempt to arrange an art exhibit up in my own part of the country.


Mr. Chambers:: One man?


Douglas Mason Fisher: I was not arranging a one man exhibit. If I could, I probably would have tried to have Mr. Lawren Harris because, as the hon. member may know, he has made some magnificent paintings of the lake Superior country.


Egan Chambers: Oh, I thought it was you.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I made an attempt to get a collection of paintings that is circulating around the country called "The Group of Seven and After". I was told that collection was being shown elsewhere, which was a legitimate excuse. However, when I pressed to find out what was necessary in order to get an art exhibit at the lakehead, I was given what I thought was the complete runaround. I was told that no place at the lake-head had been established as a proper place in which to show art. I pressed this further and I was told that, after all, a member from the gallery had gone through northern Ontario and had arranged the approval of certain places, I expect in terms of fire hazards and display space, as being proper. When I pressed the matter I discovered where they had been in northern Ontario. This particular person or persons who had gone around, I discovered, had not even touched over half of northern Ontario. According to the national gallery, northern Ontario seems to consist of Sault Ste. Marie, New Liskeard and Haileybury. This indicated to me that the gallery officers who were responsible for these displays had shown a remarkable lack of initiative.
The other thing that bothered me about the way I was put off was that I was told the people who wished to put on the show-it was the Lakehead College of Art, Science and Technology-should really work through provincial authorities. Here again it seemed to 79951-0-320i
17, 1960	5073
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration me we were going to have the old constitutional jurisdictional question. In art, of all things, if agencies have to work through provincial branches before they can go to the federal branch here, then we have an interpretation of the British North America Act and the various jurisdictions which completely baffles me. The fact that a local organization cannot satisfy the national gallery about its ability to put on a show, without having to go through a provincial art association or society, is something I cannot swallow.
I might say that the particular problem of the lakehead college ended happily. They found the Toronto art gallery quick and alert in providing them with paintings. They had a very good display, and everyone was impressed with both the collection and the demonstration of zeal given by the Toronto gallery in providing them with this collection. What they feel about the national art gallery is another matter.
The last remark I want to make in connection with the gallery follows from this. We are always glad to see Ottawa made a greater and greater attraction. I know a woman with four children who had saved for a number of years to come down here in order to spend a whole week in the gallery. She comes from my constituency. She went through the gallery day after day and spent hours in the various collections and was immensely pleased. Of course, her reaction was the obvious one; if we could only have more things of this kind, even on a smaller scale, circulated around the country. This, it seems to me, is one of the ways in which you will have to judge the performance of the national gallery; not only upon the displays that have been put forward for people who are able to come to Ottawa or who live in Ottawa, but upon what the gallery does about sending its displays around the country. I would appreciate very much having an indication as to whether there are any plans for expansion in this regard.
I understand that the national gallery takes the view that if you do not have a responsible local group to sponsor something, art displays are most unlikely to be successful. I should like to know something about what the standard is for sponsoring groups. I can see a situation where in some areas of northern Ontario a Rotary club, Kiwanis club or teachers' association might be an excellent sponsoring group. It might even be worth while, in places such as that, to see whether a few people could be put in the field to work up interest. I would be interested in hearing from the minister what the gallery's plans are in that particular regard.
5074	HOUSE OF
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration
I should be interested also if the minister Could tell us something about a subject in which my colleague the hon. member for Kootenay West is probably interested, something of the artistic question; as to where the gallery stands on modern, abstract, realism, and all those things.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I will ask the board of trustees to give the hon. member a report on where they stand with regard to the cultural aspects of the situation, because it is beyond me. In so far as these exhibitions are concerned, taking the last question first, I may say it is true that some of them are handled through art circuits. It is an administrative procedure which works out to the benefit both of the ultimate exhibitors and also the gallery, because these people have developed techniques for handling these exhibitions.
With regard to exhibitions being held in specific places, I may say I do not know what the situation is in my hon. friend's vicinity, but it is necessary to have exhibition space which permits a reasonable degree of security, which is fireproof, where atmospheric fluctuations are not too severe, heat, humidity and so on, because these are valuable paintings and the board does not feel it could risk this type of work in premises which are not suitable. In general that is the explanation for some of these refusals to send to certain places. If the hon. member wishes to pursue that matter further I will arrange with him to consult with the gallery with respect to what is considered to be a suitable place in which to have an exhibition.
I should tell him also that this year there are some 28 exhibitions which will be touring Canada. Two of these exhibitions will cost about $25,000 each, so it is not a small item at all. However, we consider that it is a most important aspect of the work of the gallery, and I hope these exhibitions will be enthusiastically received in the various centres in which they are shown. One of the collections which is being exhibited is the one to which the hon. member referred, namely the group of seven.
Two hon. members who have spoken have made reference to the remarks of Mr. Lawren Harris. I do not propose to pursue that particular remark of his at all. All I will say is this. I suggest that those hon. members confer with Mr. Harris today and find out what his feelings are; because I understand that in so far as the board is concerned and in so far as the gallery in general is concerned, they are most amicable.
The hon. member asked for an explanation of the purchase account. I think I should start by noting the expenditures for the national gallery. I will go back four years. For


the year 1956-57 they were $351,000; for 195758 they were $465,000; for 1958-59 they were $546,000; for 1959-60 the amount asked for was $914,000. In other words the amount was almost doubled. In the year of the move the officials of the gallery were extremely busy, as members of the committee can well understand, in planning for the move to the new building and in restoring some works that had to be restored in order to permit them to be installed in the new building. A great deal of activity was going on, and after careful consideration and consultation it was considered that there was not going to be too much time in which to make selections for additions to the collection.
Consequently, after considerable discussion it was agreed to leave in the purchase allocation for that year a nominal amount which would permit the acquisition of some small items, largely Canadian items, because a certain amount of acquisition of works of Canadian artists is going on all the time. When that year ended and the appropriations were being drawn for the next year, the purchase account was restored again. It had nothing whatever to do with personalities. It was the simple fact that the appropriation for one year doubled in any event just because of the move, and it was felt that the purchase acount could quite properly be dropped for that particular period. I might say that this was a decision which was accepted and agreed upon by the members. I think there was no particular dislocation of the activities of the gallery as a result of that decision.
The hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate asked me to put a little bit of history on the record, something which I am pleased to do. I can assure him that at no time was there any intention to detract from his glory. The actual building, of course, is a matter of concern to the Department of Public Works. When it was first started I think it was intended to be an office building for the Department of Citizenship and Immigration.


John Whitney Pickersgill: No, no. The minister is wrong about that matter.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Then I am misinformed. That just indicates that I can scarcely be expected to give historical data with respect to a period for which I was not responsible. If the hon. member wants to set the record straight and wants to say what happened under his jurisdiction, that is a matter that is entirely up to him. I may say that I understand that the minister who was responsible for the department at the time was a certain Hon. J. W. Pickersgill, who was the member

for Bonavista-Twillingate, if approval is given to my pronunciation, and that the chairman of the board was Mr. C. P. Fell.
Again, I know that Mr. Fell would be only too happy to agree with me that his resignation had nothing whatever to do with the altercations which arose. He made that point abundantly clear to me in a personal interview and later in a letter. In fact he regretted that pressure of other business forced him to resign just at that particular time, but he asked me to understand that nothing in the nature of personalities entered at all into his resignation. Hon. members who doubt that statement can have it corroborated by Mr. Fell himself.
The director at that time was Mr. Alan Jarvis. I agree with hon. members that Mr. Jarvis did an excellent job for the national gallery. His enthusiasm was unbounded and his knowledge leaves little to be desired. I think he did a good job for the gallery. There is again no personal feeling whatsoever with regard to the situation which developed.
The hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate made an observation with reference to the opening. If he will cast his mind back he will recall that the former governor general, Right Hon. Vincent Massey, laid the cornerstone of the building or officiated at the laying of the cornerstone, something which we thought was significant because, as has been said, he is a noteworthy patron of the arts and a very knowledgeable one. When the opening was planned it was recognized that his term of office would have expired and that there would be a new governor general. However, at that time it was not known who the new governor general would be. It was therefore impossible to invite Mr. Massey in his capacity as governor general; and inasmuch as he had already officiated at the important function of laying the cornerstone it was felt that his mark could be left on the building in any event. It was impossible to invite the new governor general when we did not know who it would be. Again, if my hon. friend will think back, he will realize that the appointment of the new governor general took place very shortly before the opening of the building.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Can the hon. lady give the date of the opening of the building?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: February 17. It was originally planned for earlier, but construction of the building was delayed. The opening was accordingly delayed for some three months, I believe. It was originally scheduled for November.
I think I have answered most of the questions that have been asked. I think I shall
17, 1960	5075
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration not comment on some of the other things that have been said. I hope the hon. member feels better for having got them off his chest.


John Whitney Pickersgill: There are one or two points to which I want to refer with regard to the hon. lady's explanation. In the first place I want to congratulate the hon. lady on her debating ingenuity. The explanation of why the Governor General could not open the Lome building is undoubtedly a nice one to have on the record, but the hon. lady will not mind my saying that she has strained our credulity more that she usually does.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: That is the absolute truth.


John Whitney Pickersgill: The absolute truth is something; as a jesting Pilate said, that is very hard to determine.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: You are supposed to take my word.


John Whitney Pickersgill: In the parliamentary sense I accept the hon. lady's word. However, to come to the purchase account, of course the hon. lady's explanation went far beyond the point of straining our credulity. As the hon. lady knows perfectly well, amounts paid into the purchase account do not lapse.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I never said they did.


John Whitney Pickersgill: No. But the hon. lady said they would be so busy moving that they would not have time to buy any new pictures. If they could not spend it before the fiscal year ended, it would remain in the purchase account, and they could have bought that many more pictures this year. Therefore that explanation is really unworthy of the hon. lady and unworthy of being given to the committee; and of course this attitude is in contrast with what happened in that country which in the past, before the 15 per cent and things of that sort, the hon. lady's party used to admire so greatly. I have in my hand a copy of the New York Times for Wednesday. February 3, and I suppose the hon. lady would admit that even though this is published in the United States it is a reputable newspaper.
Mr. Pallet!: What year?


John Whitney Pickersgill: 1960. There is a reproduction here of a painting which was bought by the national gallery of the United Kingdom. The heading reads "Britain's National Gallery Buys Rembrandt 'Man on Horseback' " and the text beneath the reproduction says "Price is above $386,000 and may be as high as $840,000-exchequer planning more major purchases."
We know, of course, that in the United Kingdom they have full employment and prosperity, and it may be they are better able
5076	HOUSE OF
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration to afford to encourage the arts than is the government of Canada, which repudiated an undertaking it had given to buy a painting for a smaller sum of money. I thought the committee and the public would be interested to observe this contrast.
I do not intend to deal further with the unfortunate events of the past year in so far as the national gallery is concerned. The minister has been very fortunate indeed, in my opinion, in getting a very eminent Canadian, very well qualified, to be the director; and speaking not only for myself but, I believe, for my friends in the house, I wish him well. We extend these good wishes to the board also, including the new chairman.


Mr. McGee:: First of all, I should like to concur in the good wishes offered by the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate to the new director and the board. I was wondering, incidentally, whether the new director shares the view of his predecessor that there might be a cocktail lounge established in the cafeteria, and I would be interested in what the minister may have to say about that.
What I should like to suggest to the minister and to the directors of the gallery is something which relates to the presence in Ottawa during May and June of large numbers of school children. Over a thousand have visited this city from my constituency alone, and one only has to examine the attendance in the galleries on Fridays and, indeed, on other days of the week, to appreciate the thousands upon thousands of young Canadians who are visiting the House of Commons.
I was wondering whether consideration had been given to a display which might be on view, particularly during the months of May and June, indicating in one area the development of Canadian art from its earliest stages to its latest developments. If that suggestion has not yet been considered I should like to put it forward. It might be left through the tourist season as well, but I am more particularly interested in the grade school and high school students who are visiting the national capital, who would then have the opportunity of seeing the process illustrated in its original form. I appreciate that this sort of information is given to them in varying degrees in the various school systems, but I think it would be appropriate to have this development of Canadian art on view during these particular months.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I can assure the hon. member that we do that now. There are daily lectures addressed to various age groups, and one of them is on the subject of the development of Canadian art.


Mr. Herridge:: Lacking the personal heritage of culture and cultural opportunities
[Mr. Pickersgill.l

enjoyed by many members of this house, I hesitate to rise to speak on this item. Therefore I want it clearly understood that I do not speak as an authority, but simply as one representing the views of certain people who have written to me and conversed with me in connection with our national gallery, in which a great number of people in Canada are taking an increasing interest.
We have an excellent catalogue of paintings. We have an excellent building at the present time and, as has been mentioned by three previous speakers, we have a very competent director in charge. So we have all the materials for success, providing we get understanding and co-operation from the various sections of Canada and the Canadian people in general. That is the first point I wish to make. I am not competent to deal with some of these other matters which concern those who have the training and experience and who can give opinions on art. I am one who likes to see pictures which represent things as I see them; I am a simple soul.
I was interested in the opening of the gallery, which ceremony I attended in a black tie; but I think the arrangements showed that someone was a little out of touch with the needs and interests of the people in general, when provision was made for attendance by 5,000 people wearing white ties. A whole brigade of people wearing white ties; imagine that. What a frightening prospect in connection with the national gallery. Anyone would think it was a military parade. While I understand the symbolic nature of the white tie I think it could have been confined to the few, to the inner group of very important people. Therefore I suggest that in future invitations to these functions should be given out in a way which would not prohibit the attendance of a large number of ordinary people who are artists or interested in art.
Let me point out first, that it would be impossible to obtain 5,000 white ties in Ottawa at one time for one function; and second, that the great majority of those who are interested in the art gallery cannot afford an outfit of this style. I do suggest that an opportunity be provided on other occasions for ordinary people like the hon. member for Kootenay West to attend, in ordinary clothes.
In connection with this opening I also wish to say that I listened with interest to the Prime Minister, the director and other persons who were there. I had made up my mind to say this, and I will do so. I thought it was the most shocking example of bad manners on the part of the people in the white tie class that I have ever seen in my life. I can only put it this way; that when the Prime

Minister was speaking there were white ties to the right of him, white ties to the left of him and white ties in front of him that whispered and murmured. I was very annoyed and the other people around him were annoyed; and I say, as a member of the working class, that I know the working class would have shown better manners on such an occasion.
I draw some other matters to the attention of the minister because they have been drawn to my attention by constituents of mine who come to Ottawa to spend a week or so in the city, and others who visit the national gallery on various occasions. I suggest we have to make the gallery a friendly place. It is not sufficient for a visitor to go up to an information desk at which a rather superior young lady is sitting reading a book, and wait until she looks up and says, "What do you want?" You ask the question, and she says "Fourth floor" and goes on reading.
I have had that complaint from four people who have visited the gallery. That is not the right attitude. Of course the person at the desk possibly is not a civil servant. Perhaps it is someone from the Girl Guides or an organization such as that volunteering her spare time. If the persons on the information desk are on the staff they should be friendly. That is the place to create a friendly atmosphere. This woman received a crisp answer at the desk. Then she looked at one of the paintings and said she thought she was in the wrong institution. Attendance will increase in the future. The minister said one million people have already attended.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: The figure was 300,000. We think it will be one million this year.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Interest is increasing. People who are not accustomed to visiting galleries should be treated with courtesy and made to feel at home in their national gallery.
I am told we have done very well in terms of collecting typical paintings representative of various periods and European and other schools but I have to accept other peoples' opinions in this respect. There should now be an opportunity to give greater recognition to Canadian artists. We should not spend large sums of money buying paintings from Europe or the United States if we already have pictures representative of a given school or period. We should also provide representation for schools and groups of Canadian artists from coast to coast. A number of amateur artists recommended that to me.
I am reliably informed that we have many paintings, including war paintings, in storage and that a man, perhaps a commissionaire, is employed to take care of them. Later on I want to know their number, size and subjects.
17, 1960	5077
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration Greater use could be made of them in all sections of Canada. I promised three artistic ladies in Ottawa to mention that and I always try to please the ladies.


Mr. Cooper:: Does the hon. member wear lipstick?


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: We can only have one national gallery at this time. Therefore we should arrange tours of pictures to give all Canadians a chance to view them. I have not had time to read this excellent report but will do so later on, and I suggest that we issue a simple brochure to send to high schools to interest children in the gallery its purposes and paintings.
We have throughout the years given our support to this non-profit agency, which is a projection of C.C.F. policy into the realm of cultural activity, and welcome its development.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: With regard to the receptionist, the person on the desk has not been a civil servant. The situation has been covered and there will be someone there who will be charged with the responsibility of adequately greeting the public.
The war paintings are-I do not know whether "in storage" properly describes the situation-housed in a separate building and are shown from time to time in the gallery. There is a constant exhibition of paintings of world wars I and II, and these are rotated. The paintings are not in dead storage by any means, and it is intended to make use of them.
The hon. member asked about a brochure of a descriptive nature to send to school children. One is presently in the process of being planned.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: There is mental telepathy between the hon. lady and the hon. member for Kootenay West.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Chairman, these items in the estimates and the discussion that has developed concerning them make us conscious of the fact that there is more to national development than trade, employment and income statistics. While we may take some satisfaction out of the fact that we are building up a national gallery as an expression of another kind of national development, we have perhaps not too much to boast about in such a field of national expression in this wealthy country of ours as long, for instance, as we do not have a national theatre or even a national library.
I wish to say a few words about a matter to which reference was also made by the hon. member for Kootenay West. We have been successful in building up our national gallery over the years, and I hope there will
5078	HOUSE OF
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration be room in it for every kind of painting; that we will not concentrate on national or classical paintings or on any particular school of painting. Perhaps there is room even for the kind of painting I do not understand.
I once ventured to make a presentation of a painting to the national gallery, which I think has been in the cellar of the gallery ever since. I am not suggesting that is not a proper place for it. It was a painting presented to me while in Russia, a rather startling painting, I thought. There are other paintings in custody-or if that is not the correct word, in storage-which have been mentioned today. I mention them also because I think from my own experience it is of some importance if it can be done-and I know it has been done within the limits of the possible-to have Canadian paintings in our diplomatic and other missions abroad. They frequently arouse a good deal of astonishment on the part of those who visit there and see good Canadian paintings on the embassy walls. They sometimes express a certain measure of astonishment that we have achieved, as indeed we have achieved, a high position in this particular branch of culture. I hope that practice, although I know something of the difficulties in the way of carrying it out, will be continued.
I share the satisfaction of the hon. members in the fact the new national gallery has been opened, that the facilities for displaying our art are much better than they were, and that people are already beginning to take advantage of those facilities.
I also share the dissatisfaction that has been expressed by my hon. friend from Bonavista-Twillingate with some of the antecedent activities of this development. The hon. member for Kootenay West has said something about the opening ceremonies signalling this important change. It was no doubt in some of its aspects an impressive occasion; in some other aspects it was almost a comedy of white tie confusion. I congratulate my hon. friend from Kootenay West, that simple unsophisticated son of the soil, who could acquire only a black tie for the occasion. I congratulate him on having been able to break the white tie barrier because apparently he was close enough to the distinguished people in white ties to be able to notice their behaviour on this occasion. But my impression was that the black tie or the no tie group had been segregated in a different area of the building on that occasion.
I think some of the events leading up to the change which have been mentioned already speak for themselves. I do not propose to go into them in any detail. I think the resignation of Mr. Morgan and the letter, in which he


expressed why he had to resign, were shocking. I am convinced now, as I was convinced last year, that the circumstances surrounding the rejection by the government of certain offers they had made to purchase paintings did in effect constitute a breach of contract by the government and in effect, therefore, by the country.
I have mentioned this on more than one occasion in this house. The Minister of Finance, his voice quivering with indignation, has accused me of besmirching the good name of Canada because I said on one occasion that the word of Canada did not now stand as high as it once did. I repeat that remark. But when I made it in the first instance as I do now, I was referring only to this particular episode, the rejection by the government of the offer which it had made to purchase pictures. When I talked about the word of Canada not standing as high as it once did I was referring to that particular episode and to nothing else; and the Minister of Finance, if he had bothered to look into the matter, would have found that out. But it was a sorry episode which I am sure anyone who examines the facts will realize.


Mr. Robinson:: Liberal, right or wrong.


Lester Bowles Pearson: I do not know the meaning of that remark; I do not know what it has to do with the fact that certain proposals were made on behalf of the Canadian government, certain undertakings and negotiations were entered into and later repudiated. That is what I am talking about, and I repeat, it was a sorry episode. But it is behind us. The national gallery is now in its new quarters. It has started out on a new career of great value in the cultural development of our country. The figures of the number of visitors to the gallery that have already been given speak for themselves.
I think, as has already been pointed out, that for this development we owe a great deal of gratitude to the previous director. It seems to me it did represent a kind of pettiness of partisanship that on this great occasion of the opening of the national gallery, the official speech of the Prime Minister opening the gallery could not find room for one reference to the man who had done so much to bring this about. He has now been succeeded by a man who has our respect. We know he will be a fine director. We congratulate the government on this appointment and, as my hon. friend to my left has said, we wish him well in his important work of service to the people of Canada.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I am sure the Leader of the Opposition will be pleased to know, if he does not know already, that last year external

affairs purchased from the biennial exhibition of art a number of Canadian paintings for use in various posts abroad. I understand it is their intention to do so at the next exhibition.


Mr. Jones:: Mr. Chairman, I do not intend to thresh old straw in the manner of the Leader of the Opposition. Like other hon. members, I should like to congratulate the minister on her wisdom in obtaining the services of the new national director, a person who has been favourably known across Canada, of course, for many years, a person of great distinction in the field of art. From personal experience as a member of the Canadian delegation to the Atlantic congress, where he took part in the cultural activities of that conference, I can say he held the name of Canada high in the international field, and his words and his advice were listened to with a great deal of respect and attention by those from other countries. Indeed, it is a fortunate thing for this country to have such a distinguished man heading the national gallery.
In regard to some of the remarks made by the hon. member for Kootenay West, like him I find that my duties in the House of Commons do not permit frequent visits to the gallery, but on one occasion when I was able to go there I found quite a different reception. Indeed, the interest and enthusiasm of the staff of the gallery were almost overwhelming; because I recall that on that particular occasion I was looking at a painting of a bridle. While I was discussing it with some of my friends one of the guards became so interested in the discussion that he too joined in and gave his view of this particular painting.


An hon. Member:: Did you say "bridle"?


Henry Frank Jones: A bridle.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I was referring only to the person at the information desk, not to the rest of the staff.


Henry Frank Jones: I was happy indeed to learn it is expected that nearly a million people will visit the gallery this year. Surely this in itself indicates that it has become indeed a people's gallery, a gallery to which all Canadians can repair with the assurance of getting a warm welcome and of seeing the paintings exhibited under circumstances of utmost friendliness.
I understand that at the present time there is an exhibition at the gallery, which unfortunately I have not had the opportunity to see, from my own province of Saskatchewan. Not having seen it, I am not in a position to offer any comments on the exhibition. I ask this question of the minisfi r. Is it the policy of the gallery to encourage exhibitions of art 79951-0-321
17, 1960	5079
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration from the provinces, art painted by Canadian artists in the various provinces?
In regard to the comments made by the minister earlier on the purchase by the department of Canadian art, perhaps she might clarify the position. It is not necessarily that which is considered representative of Canadian art painted by Canadians. The point I make here is that art is truly a universal thing, and what we are trying to do in the national gallery is to encourage Canadians to engage in the arts in this medium.


Some hon. Members:: One o'clock.
At one o'clock the committee took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The committee resumed at 2.30 p.m.
Charles Edward Rea: Order. Shall vote 240 carry?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Before it carries, Mr. Chairman, I feel I should make a somewhat fuller correction than I did of the statement made by the minister about the building where the national gallery is located. I am not surprised that the actual facts are not well known because there has been so much confusion about the matter. Under the national capital plan the national gallery was supposed to go where the barracks now are on the driveway. The Department of National Defence was not willing to release that site unless a new armoury was built somewhere else in Ottawa at a very great cost which the government of that day did not think was justified. Therefore that site was not available. It was then agreed that a temporary site should be chosen and that a building should be erected on that site which could ultimately be used as an office building but which would be used in the first instance as a national gallery. I accepted that compromise with a mental reservation which I must say I uttered at the time to a good many people, that the building would continue to be the national gallery for the rest of the twentieth century.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I do not doubt it.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I am quite sure it will be and I hope it is. It is a very much better site than the one chosen under the national capital plan because it is nearer the centre of the city. Anybody who knows where the national gallery is in London will realize that if one thing is more certain than another it is that if you want visitors to the national gallery, which I think you do, you want it in the

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration centre of the city and not even as far away from the centre as the national defence headquarters now are.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Public archives and national library-
National library-
318. General administration, $192,619.
John Whitney Pickersgill: I should like to say a few words about this item. I know it is not the minister's fault and I am not blaming her but I do wish the minister would try to impress upon her junior colleague, the Minister of Public Works, and upon her senior colleague, the Minister of Finance, that the national library is a matter of some importance and that the collection of antiques down on Wellington street should be torn down and the new building should be proceeded with. No doubt it would be nice to retain part of the building down on Wellington street as a memorial to Mr. C. D. Howe whose office was there all through the war but I do not think Mr. Howe would want it. As a matter of fact, on one occasion I suggested to Mr. Howe that if he would go ahead with tearing down the building we would make him national librarian, and I offer that suggestion to the hon. lady. I think he would be most suitable. I also think that the present Minister of Public Works could do very well with having a library to which he could resort from time to time.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National film board-
238. Administration, production and distribution of films and other visual materials, $4,493,504.
John Whitney Pickersgill: Is the hon. lady going to make a statement on the film board?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Yes, Mr. Chairman. I am pleased to tell the committee that since the house last considered the estimates of the national film board it has been accorded a signal honour by the Canadian citizenship council. This year, its twenty first anniversary, it was given a Canadian citizenship award. Perhaps I might read the citation which accompanied it.
The national film board was nominated in this competition "for recording, depicting and interpreting on film, Canada, the Canadian people, Canadian regions and geography, Canadian problems and achievements, Canadian institutions and the work of Canadian institutions, Canada's cultural life in its varied and numerous aspects; for its promotion of the use of Canadian films by groups of all kinds, both in urban and rural areas; for its frequently courageous treatment of issues and ideas; for its imaginative efforts in informing and awakening Canadians through film of high quality, particularly documentary film, to the vast complex fabric of our nation."

Perhaps I might also mention a few of the most recent awards which the board has won. At the United States film festival the national film board headed the list with five blue ribbons for films and three for film strips. A couple of weeks ago in Cannes the jury of the international festival gave a special mention to the board's film "Universe" for the exceptional quality of its animation work, and the board also won the grand prix Eurovision for a documentary entitled "The Backbreaking Leaf" about the tobacco harvest in Ontario.
For the fiscal year 1960-61 the national film board estimates pretty well remain at the same level as for the previous year. The over-all increase is one of $91,732, brought about by an increase of $132,732 with respect to the board's operational vote and by a reduction of $40,000 in its acquisition of equipment vote. An amount of $94,012 will take care of merit increases to the board's personnel and $28,071 will cover an extension of the board's foreign distribution activity. The balance covers various small items.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I should like to ask the hon. lady two questions. Can she say whether the C.B.C. is now paying for the film board films which it uses what they are really worth? Can she also say how many of the films of the film board are used by the C.B.C. and what is the pattern.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: The films which are used by the C.B.C. remain the property of the film board and accordingly what they pay for them is really a rental. The amount they pay varies between one third and one half of the cost of the film.


John Whitney Pickersgill: About how many do they use?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I am told it amounts to about 80 half hours per year.


Mr. Brunsden:: May I ask the minister
whether it is not true that film board productions are available to agencies other than the C.B.C.?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Oh, yes.


Edwin William Brunsden: I am thinking in terms of universities; I am thinking in terms of local film groups. It has been my privilege to enjoy a number of these films in the remote parts of western Canada. I think the film board should be commended for the work it is doing in making available to the distant parts of Canada the films that are made here.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Yes, that is quite true. In so far as the films which are used by the C.B.C. are concerned, after a lapse of 30 days they are made available for other showings.


Lester Bowles Pearson: I should like to pay my respects to the work the board is doing in Canada, especially in the remote areas. I should like also to ask the minister if she could give us some information about the work the board is doing in the projection of Canada abroad. She mentioned it in her statement. Perhaps she would elaborate a little upon it because I know how important that work is.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: We are rather proud of the work which the board does abroad, Mr. Chairman. In the United States, for instance, the national film board distributes Canadian films in the following ways: First, through the board's own offices in New York and Chicago which are engaged principally in arranging commercial distribution and carrying out Canadian travel film programs. In the commercial field, national film board films distributed to theatres had 5,260 bookings in the United States last year. There were 1,479 telecasts of films other than travel films. The board and its agents sold 2,976 copies of 16-millimetre films and 2,231 copies of film strips to libraries, educational and industrial organizations. In the travel promotion program, direct bookings from the board's own libraries and from 567 local outlets reached an attendance of 4,030,000; in the past year there were 1,780 telecasts of Canadian travel films and 1,639 telecasts of short filler items dealing with Canadian vacation attractions.
The Canadian embassy in Washington and seven Canadian consulate offices have been for years the principal means of carrying out non-commercial distribution. During 195960 the attendance they reached was 2,170,000. In a little over a two-year release period "City of Gold" has been booked into 3,600 theatres in the United States. Last summer our film on the St. Lawrence seaway received 334 telecasts. I am told that the film "City of Gold" was booked with a Brigitte Bardot film and we do not know which one was the attraction.
The report on the United States, which I have just given, is the only one I have on an individual country. However, through all of our posts abroad we have had in the year 1959-60, 223,500 showings, non-commercial, with a total attendance of 24,600,000.


Mr. Valade:: I wonder if the minister would inform me how many of the French films produced by the national film board are included in the list which she has just submitted to the committee.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: It is about 50-50. I said 80, and there are approximately 40 in French and 40 in English.


Georges-J. Valade: Is that for use abroad?
79951-0-321J
17, 1960	5081
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration


Ellen Louks Fairclough: No, that was for the films shown on the C.B.C. The films abroad are generally produced, or at least the commentaries are made in the language of the country concerned. In France it would be in French and in the English speaking countries it would be in English. In other countries it is in the language of the country concerned.


Georges-J. Valade: I should like to comment a little bit on this, Mr. Chairman. I hope the minister will be able to emphasize to the national film board the importance of making more use of French films abroad so that the people of the United States and the people of other countries would know that this country has a bilingual and bi-ethnical aspect. I think the national film board would be well advised to use this sort of information about the country. I hope the minister will see that efforts are made to ensure that this country will be known abroad as a biethnical country.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: We do distribute the films in French in places where the French language is understood; such as the New England states, for example, and some areas of South America where French is a language which is understood.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Because of the wholehearted support of this group for this socialist style enterprise I want to say a few words on this item. I was not here when the minister made her opening remarks; I was unavoidably detained, but I understand when she made her brief remarks she referred to the awards won by the national film board. This is a matter in which I am very interested because I was reading of that in the report. These awards are clear evidence of Canadian technical ability, Canadian administrative ability and, in other directions, evidence of Canadian talent. We in this group are very pleased to see these awards because they indicate the fact that this government agency can hold its head up among the many free enterprise agencies doing the same type of work in North America. I see the minister looks as if she agrees with that statement at this time.
If I remember correctly, the film board was established in 1939. At the time there was considerable opposition to the idea of establishing a national film board to perform the services which it has performed since that date. As the years went by the opposition grew less and less and more and more people, even Conservatives, came to recognize the importance and value of the work done by the national film board. The results over a period of time have definitely demonstrated the value of the film board in several
5082	HOUSE OF
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration directions. First, its value in promoting knowledge of Canada within Canada amongst Canadians; second, its value in promoting knowledge and understanding of Canada abroad and also promoting an understanding in other countries of the opportunities for settlement in Canada, for investment and for recreation. Those are only a few of the positive values that have flowed from the activities of the national film board. There are many others, but I just mention those as possibly the most important.
I rise to speak very briefly on this item because the activities of the national film board are very much appreciated in the constituency which I have the honour to represent. I say again that when I get up to make a few remarks it is my practice to express the opinions of my constituents or the opinions of persons who have taken the time to write to me about some aspect of government or who have discussed a matter with me. The national film board is the type of organization that has proved to be of particular value to the smaller, and in some cases the isolated places in my constituency. The value of the film board is recognized by the various active film councils that are supported by a cross-section of the community in such areas as the Rossland-Trail area and the Nelson-Kootenay lake area, as well as in numerous small communities, and which is found in local organizations such as women's institutes, the P.T.A., farmers' institutes or, in some cases, church congregations.
These two types of local organizations have benefited over a good period of years from the work of the national film board and its productions. At this point I wish to say that when I have had a problem or a complaint that has been brought to my attention or a suggestion, and I have brought it to the attention of the commissioner, I have always found him to be most helpful in ascertaining the facts in connection with any complaint and in making certain, from his point of view, that the national film board was performing its functions in a certain area properly and efficiently.
I also appreciate the work of the field men of the national film board, especially those who have come to the interior. Nelson is the centre of distribution for the national film board and ever since the commencement of this type of work by the national film board they have all worked in close co-operation with local organizations and people. That work and service has been appreciated and we hope it will be continued.
I am glad to note that the vote is being increased by something over $91,000. It is not a large increase but at least it is an


indication that the government is determined to maintain the national film board activities at present standards and levels. We are pleased indeed to see that indication.
Before concluding I want to bring another matter to the minister's attention. As one of the press men said on one occasion, I am at times inclined to be somewhat parochial but I make no excuse for that inclination. The people of the southeastern interior, those living within the Columbia basin, are looking forward with anticipation to the documentary film that the national film board was going to produce on the Columbia river basin.


An hon. Member:: Why?


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I will tell you why. As all hon. members know, we live in a garden of Eden and we want more and more people to know about it. As the film will have educational and cultural value and will provide information to people in Canada and in the United States as to the opportunities for recreation in the Kootenays, as to the opportunities for investment, for retiring, for settlement and in other ways, when the minister replies I should like to hear from her what progress has been made in connection with the production of this film which is awaited with such great interest by the people whom I have the honour to represent.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: As I think I said last year on the discussion of these estimates, the script was prepared last year, the shooting will take place this year. Distribution will be next year.


Lester Bowles Pearson: I was interested to get the report on the distribution of Canadian films. I congratulate the board on its courage in the competition it is conducting. Gold will always outdraw dross. I hope so in this case. As to circulation of films abroad, can the minister tell the committee whether we have been successful in getting any of our films behind the iron curtain for showing?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: We will get that information in just a few minutes. Certainly in Russia. We will get a list of the various places. I am glad to say that we have been successful in having showings behind the iron curtain.


Mr. Benidickson:: Both the minister and I have been in this chamber for a few years. I believe that I have been here for a slightly longer period. However we have both been here long enough to know that over a long period members of the Conservative party took a consistent attitude when they were sitting on this side of the house and had little to offer but sneers with respect to the activities of this government organization.

I simply want to observe that this is another of the activities that I think the government has found is not as bad as they had indicated or in any event not of the same colours as those they were painting with respect to it when they were sitting in opposition, I find that they have proposed larger expenditures year by year since they have come into office and a larger staff year by year.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I draw the hon. member's attention to the fact that a member of the government was one of the early supporters of the national film board in its activities. I refer in particular to the present Secretary of State for External Affairs who supported this board and had a number of things to say as far back as 1939. I should like to quote briefly from some of his remarks at that time when he said-


John Whitney Pickersgill: Could the minister give the date and place?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: This was in 1939 at the time the bill was being introduced by Hon. Mr. Euler. He said:
The minister has suggested that parliament should look to the future and be thinking of national films. As I read the reports of the Department of Trade and Commerce, the films that we are producing at the present time are used largely for promotion of trade and of our tourist business. I suggest to him that provision should be made now for making and distributing national films, designed to help Canadians in all parts of Canada to understand the ways of living and the problems of Canadians in other parts. Perhaps every hon. member must have been impressed by two facts: first, that it is difficult for Canadians in one part of Canada to understand what is going on in other parts of the country, and second, that moving pictures are having a remarkable effect on the Canadian people, particularly on the children and young men and women.
I see by "Canada 1939", issued by the Department of Trade and Commerce, that the motion picture continues to be the most popular form of amusement in this dominion. Figures for 1937 show 1,047 motion picture theatres, with a total of 134,374,061 paid admissions. We all know how the children flock to the moving picture theatres on Saturdays and other holidays and, in fact, on every occasion; I would ask the minister whether there is not some chance of this national film board, some time within not the distant but the near future, making and distributing films showing Canadian life, and making arrangements with the moving picture theatres across Canada to show these pictures once they are made.
I think it is well to record that a member of the present government was a strong supporter of the national film board at its inception.


William Moore Benidickson: I was not in the house in 1939 but I have been in the house since 1945 and recall the discussions at this stage of our proceedings on the estimates of the national film board in the years from 1945 to 1957. Without exception I recall that the activities
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration of this board were always described by some person in the official opposition as being in the nature of a fifth wheel of government. That was particularly true after the conclusion of hostilities in 1945.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Before this vote is carried I should like to make one or two observations. The hon. member for Kootenay West described this as a socialist enterprise. It is, of course, nothing of the kind. It is a typical example of the happy combination of public enterprise and private enterprise which was characteristic of the previous Liberal administration and of which we are extremely proud. But I do not intend to get into an ideological debate with the hon. gentleman unless he wants it and the Chair allows it, something which 1 think might be doubtful.
I rose with three purposes in mind. The first was to suggest that perhaps it might be possible, in view of some recent events in the immigration field, for the hon. lady to substitute Miss Gina Lollobrigida for Brigitte Bardot as a collaborator of the film board in the future.
The second was to inquire whether, now that we have the magnificent new terminal which was opened by the Queen last year at Gander after having been constructed at the instance of the Liberal government, and where there is an excellent place for the showing of films, the film board is making use of these facilities, because Gander remains one of the places where there are as many visitors to Canada as there are anywhere in the whole country from coast to coast.
My third suggestion is that if ever the new terminal should be completed at Dorval the film board might consider, since it is so near the headquarters of the board, showing its pictures at Dorval for the benefit of those passengers who come from the Atlantic provinces or from Ottawa and who are obliged, because of the extraordinary timetables, to spend so many hours of their lives at that airport.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: If I may make a brief remark in reply to the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate, I fully recognize the fact that the national film board was established during the time a Liberal government was in office, but I am sure the hon. gentleman will willingly recognize that it was established after repeated speeches made in this house and in the country by members of the C.C.F. group, and that these prepared the climate for the establishment of an agency of this type.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I now have some information for which the Leader of the Opposition asked. We have three titles in theatrical
5084	HOUSE OF
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration distribution in Czechoslovakia. We have several films in theatrical distribution in Poland, though I cannot give the exact number. In the U.S.S.R. we are currently arranging lor the distribution of three titles and we have had representation at the Poznan festival and at the Moscow film festival also.
Perhaps I might take this opportunity to reply also to the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate. We do have facilities for showing films at Gander, but with the lessening of the traffic there the showings have decreased in number. However, the facilities are still there and they are being used. I think the other suggestion is a very good one. Certainly one has a more or less captive audience at airports.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Going back to the remarks of my hon. friend concerning the garden of Kootenay West, we all know from our biblical background that there was a snake in the garden-


Some hon. Members:: Oh.


Douglas Mason Fisher: There may be a snake there now, but this snake's ambition is to introduce the export of power from the lower Arrow, so if this particular snake should have its way the film will become just more than a passing record; it may record something that is disappearing into history before the advance of hydroelectric power. For that reason we should all be interested in this particular move.
The point I want to speak about is something that is strictly speculative and concerned with the future. I have evidence from a number of places, not the least from the Globe and Mail which has published in this particular case an article on March 7, 1960 in the financial column, entitled "Famous Players". This article indicates that as far as this particular private organization, which is largely a distributing organization, is concerned there is to be what amounts to a revolution in operation as a result of the introduction of telemetering operations. In other articles from the same source there is an indication that video tape is carrying out a revolution within the television industry. The point about this article is that Famous Players show a tremendous drop in income and they say television is responsible. It goes on to indicate the extent to which television has affected the prosperity of the film industry and goes on to point out that this new field of operations may be the means of enabling Famous Players to get back into the revenue field, one that combines both film and television.
In the annual report of the film board, the following paragraph appears on page 22:


The advent of T.V. has caused the national film board to revise methods of distribution that had been in use for several years While the national film board still caters to the public at large, it fosters specialized distribution that answers the specific needs of organized groups, whether they be educational institutions, rural community associations, cine clubs, trade unions or study groups. In point of fact, the national film board must be constantly on the lookout for the most pliable available methods, adapting them to the ever-changing pattern of life.
That is all it really says about the advent of television causing the national film board to revise its methods. It seems to me that more than the method of distribution needs to be revised. I come to the possibility of cooperation with that other international agency which also is in effect a great film producing agency, and that is the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. We have examples that have been none too happy of attempts by the parliament of Canada to legislate co-operation between corporations. I am thinking of the act which requires the C.N.R. and the C.P.R. to co-operate. However, I should like to know something of how the national film board and the C.B.C. might co-operate. It seems to me they have much in common, not the least because the C.B.C. is both a producing and distributing agency, just as is the national film board.
I do not want to make any comment that I cannot support on the position of the distribution agencies through the local film councils, but my impression is that the local film councils have lost a lot of the influence they had through the spread of television. The distribution to public libraries still constitutes a worth-while service, but the same wide audience is no longer attracted as in the days before television became as popular as it now is. For that reason I should like to know more extensively what the advent of television has meant and what may be the effect of this development of Famous Players-


Edwin William Brunsden: On a point of order. Are we discussing the estimates of the Department of Citizenship and Immigration with respect to the national film board, or are we considering the effects of possible development in television upon the future plans of the board?


Charles Edward Rea: We are discussing the national film board vote No. 238. I have given the hon. member time to make his point. I have been listening to him very carefully and I shall be glad to know how he relates what he has been saying to the item.


Douglas Mason Fisher: The point I was trying to make is that there has been in the last decade quite a revolution taking place on both

the technical and the distributive side, and I want to know how the national film board is gearing to this. There is nothing in the report other than the one bland sentence.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: We do have committees working on co-operation between the two organizations. There is a committee at the top level; an administrative committee of senior officers of both the C.B.C. and the film board who work together at the planning stage, and then there are two committees at a lower level, one concerned with French films and the other with English. In so far as the film board is concerned, television is not a competitor. As a matter of fact, it is just another medium of distribution. In certain parts of the country, if the viewing public change their habits of viewing then the method of distribution alters. I can assure the hon. member that this is a very flexible system. It works in very close contact with the C.B.C. and with television in general in film distribution.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Television is a voracious user of films. It almost destroys them, as it were. If films are put over television it tends to cancel out later distribution. Is the film board gearing to a higher rate of production in this regard?
We are moving to the stage where educational television will become increasingly important. There has been disappointment in many parts of the country at the slow pace at which the C.B.C. has worked. Many films produced by the national film board are educational. We will not get the kind of educational television supported by provincial departments of education and supported by the C.B.C. until some other agency such as the national film board has the added time and the larger studios required to prepare a series for example in the field of science and geography. The film board can play a genuine role here. I am interested in hearing about developments in that field.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Far from considering television showings as competitive may I say that after the 30-day interval, as I explained to another hon. member, these films go into general distribution and are very popular. Last year we had 4,210 telecasts. Afterwards these films are in demand. The people who see them on television ask for them for showings in various ways through organizations, church groups and the usual channels of film distribution in this field. I can assure my hon. friend that far from curtailing or diminishing showings in any way it is an incentive and serves to accelerate them.
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration


Douglas Mason Fisher: Has the minister received any complaints in the past year as to the national film board, in supplying films to television, dealing unfairly with private enterprise operations.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I have received no such complaints.


Douglas Mason Fisher: The hon. lady received none from any private producers?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: From time to time we receive complaints from private producers so far as the general activities of the film board are concerned but none directed to television production in particular.


Douglas Mason Fisher: On what scale were these protests received? Can the minister assure us that there will be no restriction affecting private operators contemplated with respect to this agency?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: The production of film is like any other. Those who are engaged in the field commercially from time to time have objected to the national film board being engaged in the field of film production at all. I cannot give the hon. member specific instances but from time to time someone makes the complaint that the national film board should be closed down and should not produce films at all. They state that only commercial enterprises should produce films in Canada. That is a view with which we do not agree.


Douglas Mason Fisher: You do not agree?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I think that is a broad general statement.


Georges-J. Valade: I am sorry to take the precious time of this committee again but I think it is worth while to underline one point to the committee. I recently received a letter from a young person who wanted to study the technical aspects of film producing. Although she had worked for the C.B.C. and the national film board in some technical capacity she could find no way of studying the entire production of films in Canada. Unfortunately she had to go to Europe in order to study the whole system of production.
I am wondering if it would not be appropriate for the national film board to establish a school for technicians who would like to study the entire range of film production. I appreciate that the board is not a school but I wonder if it would not be feasible to have the board study the approach to the question so that future technicians could be educated in our country and thus perform the work that is required to be done by foreigners in this field.

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration
I have received complaints to the effect that private industry is being discriminated against. I know one firm had to close its doors because it could not meet the competition of the national film board. Would the board consider co-operating with private enterprise so that private firms would have access to the facilities of the board for the production of commercial or other films by private enterprise. Since the board is a government organization I wonder if it would not be in accordance with the democratic point of view to allow the film board to cooperate with private industry in this way? (Translation):


John Whitney Pickersgill: Answer in French.
(Text):


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I wish I could.


Mr. Chevrier:: Just try.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, we do train some of our own people in the board but I am afraid we have not the facilities for the general educational training of a type that would equip people to go out into this industry. I am afraid the board is not set up for that type of thing.
With regard to co-operation, the board does co-operate with private producers. Sometimes on an emergency basis it even assists them temporarily with equipment and so on. I think they have a very good working arrangement. I cannot agree that the board should vacate the field of film production. I might say that the board only produces what it is commissioned to produce. It does co-operate with private producers where the agency which commissions the film indicates that it wishes it to be produced other than by the nation film board.


William Moore Benidickson: Mr. Chairman, I am sure the minister is aware of the fact that under the rules of the board of broadcast governors a private television station to retain its licence must have a certain percentage of Canadian produced programs. I was wondering if it is the experience of the film board that the utilization of its films could be a qualified component of that Canadian compulsory requirement for a private television station. Second, I was wondering whether or not the films of the national film board are provided to private television stations on the same financial basis as to the C.B.C.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: With regard to the latter question the national film board rents films and makes them available to any station, whether a C.B.C. or private station. Any station which wishes to use any film in the catalogue can rent it from the national film board.
I think the first part of the hon. member's question should properly be directed to the


Minister of National Revenue when the estimates of the C.B.C. are before the committee.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I should like to ask the minister a question which relates only incidentally to this item. The minister has four agencies under her jurisdiction. I suggested earlier that perhaps one way that such agencies would get greater attention and perhaps a greater share of government interest would be to have individual ministers for these four agencies, the film board and several others.
In another part of the building we had a great discussion over the way these agencies that are under the departments are looked at or examined or are the responsibility of the particular minister. I refer to the check on the Jacques Cartier bridge. How much time does the minister have to spend out of her daily allotment, in a rough way, on those particular agencies as against her departmental responsibilities? We know her departmental responsibilities are very heavy. Is the minister satisfied with the kind of administrative control she can exercise as a minister in so far as those agencies are concerned and especially over one like the national film board, which is located 100 miles or so away from Ottawa? We have already had experience with one agency located in Montreal which has not been a particularly happy one. I would not at all lay this at the door of any ministerial responsibility, but it is a question of administrative control. I would appreciate the minister's comments.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I cannot answer that in a general way because each of these agencies is governed by its own act and the minister's powers and participation in the operations of the various agencies vary.
I would suggest to the hon. member that if he is interested to that extent he might examine the various acts and find out just where the minister enters into the picture, but I can say this: Regardless of where these agencies are situated, whether the head office is right here in Ottawa or in some other place, I have had personally the utmost co-operation from those who are charged with the responsibility of administering the affairs of the respective agencies.
The hon. member asked me whether I could say how much time I spent in a rough way. I assure him I do not spend any time in a rough way.


Douglas Mason Fisher: The hon. member is being facetious. I mean a rough calculation. I know how the agencies are set up and in the main all those agencies which are under the minister fall into the same rough classification.

I use the word "rough" again. A study of the statutes would not make much difference. Does the minister feel it would be worth while to have this mooted Hoover type commission or committee that is going to look into administrative procedure study the particular agencies which are under her wing in order to see whether they might be brought under another ministry or better administrative control?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I do not think I should answer that question; it is one that is more directly a responsibility of the Prime Minister.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Charles Edward Rea: This completes the estimates of the Department of Citizenship and Immigration.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Kootenay West, who is our spotter, did not realize that the public archives or the national library items had gone through.


Charles Edward Rea: May I point out that neither of the hon. members was in the house when they went through. They went through right after lunch.
DEPARTMENT OP MINES AND TECHNICAL SURVEYS Departmental administration-
187. Administration, operation and maintenance, $860,962.


Charles Edward Rea: This item will be found on page 40 of the blue book and the details on page 260.
(Translation):


Hon. Paul Comlois (Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys):: Mr. Chairman, when I submitted the estimates of my department last year, I pointed out that the mining industry had just gone through its first recession since the end of world war II. However, the drop in production for 1958 was not a serious one. Yet I indicated that prospects were already better and that in 1959, we could expect a good year.
Before continuing with the estimates of my department, I am happy to tell you that, last year, our mining production exceeded all former records, reaching a value of 2.4 billion dollars, and this trend has been maintained for most significant minerals since the beginning of 1960.
I would now like to say a few words about certain aspects of the situation of our mining industry which are especially significant and stimulating. I shall also list some important steps taken by my department, which are
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys meant to further the development of Canada's huge mineral resources to a still greater extent.
(Text):
In the early part of 1959 the Canadian mineral industry was operating at levels considerably below capacity. A decline in industrial activity, and a condition of surplus mineral stocks in the United States had been important contributing factors to this situation. However, as the year moved on mineral demand improved with the general economic expansion in both North America and Europe. Strikes in the steel and nonferrous metals industries in the United States during the second half of 1959 also resulted in an increased demand for Canadian minerals. As a result of all of these and other factors iron ore shipment rose sharply, nickel output registered marked increases, and such other minerals as copper and asbestos came into greater demand.
In fact, Mr. Chairman, during the latter part of 1959 the over-all improvement in our mineral situation was general, with the exceptions of coal, uranium, lead and zinc. The coal industry has, of course, been experiencing considerable difficulties in recent years, and this matter is currently receiving the careful attention of a royal commission. The adverse decision of the United States atomic energy authority in November with respect to the renewal of Canadian contracts after 1962 has meant a considerable adjustment in the uranium industry. This matter is under continuing study, as you will have noted from statements of my colleague, the Minister of Trade and Commerce.
I am pleased to report that conditions in the lead and zinc industry have improved in recent months following the depressed market situation which existed from 1957 well into 1959. The United Nations lead and zinc study group, in which Canada is well represented, has been carrying on a continuing study of the world situation in lead and zinc and the 25 members of the group have held several important meetings to discuss mutual problems relative to world surpluses. Canadian lead and zinc producers are naturally encouraged by the recent improvement in market conditions because over 80 per cent of their production is sold on the export market. They do, however, still face uncertainties relative to a report of the United States tariff commission to be made in October of this year.
With few exceptions, Canadian mineral commodities have experienced favourable growth situations since the latter part of 1959 as a result of their generally improved position in world markets, particularly in the
5088	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys United States and the United Kingdom. Although the export market remains of paramount importance for the mineral industry in general, there is a progressive increase in demand for iron ore, copper, lead, fuels and industrial minerals in the domestic market. In fact, I believe a related development of considerable significance to the mineral industry and the economy at large is under way with respect to the increasing trend toward greater mineral processing in Canada.
I could illustrate this by referring to several mining developments which have been of first importance during the past year. At Thompson, Manitoba, the International Nickel Company's new mining project is proceeding on schedule and is expected to come into full production next year at an annual rate of 75 million pounds of nickel. This operation will be second only in size to the Sudbury area in terms of world nickel production and all of its ore will be refined to nickel metal at a new refinery now being constructed at Thompson.
The Coronation mine in Saskatchewan and the Chisel lake mine in Manitoba are being brought into production this year and the copper concentrates from these new mines will be smelted and refined to metal in Canadian smelters and refineries. The Montreal east copper refinery, the second largest in the world, is being expanded to a capacity of
270,000	tons per year to handle increased production from the Noranda smelter as well as the output from Murdochville in the Gaspe peninsula and Flin Flon, Manitoba. The Consolidated Mining and Smelting Company of Canada Limited stands ready to bring the large Pine Point deposit on Great Slave lake into production, with the lead-zinc concentrate to be treated at Trail, B.C. The company also will commence a pig iron operation this year at Kimberley, B.C., with initial plans for an orderly expansion up to 1,000 tons of pig iron per day.
Other developments which have contributed to continuing growth and diversification of the Canadian mineral economy during the past year include three large iron ore mining projects in the Quebec-Labrador district, the preparation for zinc mining operations in the Mattagami lake area of northern Quebec, and a country-wide reactivation of a number of smaller base metal mining properties. Petroleum resource development has continued to make its major contribution, particularly in the natural gas sector. The potash industry in Saskatchewan is proceeding toward production. This province stands to become one of the major sources of potash in the world. The base metal deposits in New Brunswick seem to be moving toward the production stage.

branch's work on ground stress, long range program of direct concern to some of our deeper mines, should lead to better mining practices. To speed the development of our iron ore deposits the branch is seeking new and better methods of treating these ores. Its work with industry is well known. Many of the current processes in use in Canadian mining and milling were developed or improved by mines branch research. At a time when some facets of the industry are in difficulty I need not dwell on the importance of this work.
The Minister of Trade and Commerce has stressed the need for increased sales of uranium. I might mention here that our mines branch is currently investigating possible new uses for this commodity, one of our most important projects. I pannot, of course, say how successful our efforts will ultimately be; but it has already been established that uranium can be a useful alloying element, particularly for the production of steels of high fatigue strength.
The branch, of course, delves into many other problems. In the study of non-metallic minerals alone a dozen research projects are under way, many of which are of direct benefit to producers of industrial minerals and construction materials. Its work on fossil fuels points to a broader market for coal and improved refining techniques for crude oil. Its work with Canadian producers and fabricators of zinc is leading to new uses, and hence an improved market, for this commodity; and its research in physical metallurgy is bringing about the development of new alloys in urgent demand for missile development and nuclear research. These and many other items have been allowed for in our estimates for the mines branch.
In our estimates we have included $2,042,708 for the dominion observatories. With space research very much to the fore these days a great deal of interest has been focused on this branch of our department. Its work in the past has contributed greatly to the science of astronomy, to the international geophysical year and to many other related projects. The observatories have recently moved into the field of radio astronomy; and on June 20 I shall be pleased to preside at the opening of its new radio telescope at Penticton, British Columbia. This instrument will be used in a full scale study of distant hydrogen clouds and, to some extent, in an investigation of Mars, Jupiter, Saturn and other members of the solar system.
The observatories will be making airborne magnetometer observations over the Arctic islands, the Arctic ocean, in the neighbourhood of the north magnetic pole and over the

north Atlantic. It is also setting up a new network of seismic stations in northern Canada and the Arctic islands.
This year the branch's gravity surveys will be considerably increased to meet the demands of industry and national defence. Observations will be made over the prairies and in many parts of northern Canada.
In Ottawa the mirror transit, a new instrument in astronomic work, will be used to study positions and motions of stars and members of the solar system. In Victoria the 73-inch telescope will be used in the observatories' continuing study of interstellar gases, very hot stars and those of great brightness. The work of the geographical branch will call for the expenditure of $399,833. (Translation):
The publication of the Atlas of Canada, in French as well as in English, is a recent undertaking of the geographical branch. This is hardly the moment to elaborate on the scope of the task involved in the publication of such a work but, in my opinion, we can rightly state that this has been one of the finest achievements of our department. (Text):
This fiscal year the geographical branch will be intensifying its land use surveys. These studies, undertaken in co-operation with the provinces, lay the foundation for planned agriculture, forestry and many other endeavours of importance to the efficient development of our natural resources. The branch will also continue its investigation of ice conditions in the gulf of St. Lawrence and undertake various field studies of importance to our knowledge of Canada's geography.
May I say in conclusion, Mr. Speaker, that it was not my aim in these remarks to defend the work of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys. I feel that its record speaks for itself; and I should like to use this occasion to congratulate and thank all the officials and employees of my department for the splendid and efficient work they are doing. The department has over the years been a powerful force in the economic development of this country, and its role in the future will be one of special significance to Canada's continued growth.
(Translation):


Mr. Dumas:: Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys (Mr. Comtois) gave us a rather thorough account of his department's administration and some very interesting information. On the other hand it is unfair, as it is the only information we have as a basis for the discussion of that departments' estimates for the coming year.
The annual report which reached us in the last few days deals with activities in 1958.
17, 1960	5091
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys I was therefore extremely surprised to receive it only a few days ago. As a matter of fact, I must say that I approached the distribution branch to see whether they had forgotten to send it to me, but I found out that the only report, three or four weeks ago, was the one for 1957.


Lionel Chevrier: There has, of course, been some delay.


Armand Dumas: The report we have just received is a repetition of the information which was given to us at the sittings of the standing committee on mines, forests, and waterways last year.


Lionel Chevrier: They always lag behind.


Armand Dumas: I understand that, though the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys is interested in all aspects of mining development, his first responsibilities are those of a vast laboratory of scientific research in all mining fields.
The branches of the department are the following: Mineral resources division, surveys and mapping branch, geological survey of Canada, mines branch, geographical branch, as well as dominion observatories, the polar continental shelf project, and the dominion coal board. All those branches make us realize the significance of the extremely varied research work for which the department is responsible.
Each of the branches I have just listed, has a most experienced staff, and I take this opportunity to commend the officials, the heads and chiefs of the various branches, as well as each of the 4,000 employees who have contributed to the splendid work accomplished by the department.
All those employees, Mr. Chairman, deserve to be encouraged and supported to the best of our ability.


Lionel Chevrier: Not too many orchids.


Armand Dumas: The rapid development and expansion of our mineral deposits, more particularly during the periods from 1947 to 1957 was such that the various branches were taxed to the utmost and that the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys had difficulty in granting the numerous and varied requests that reached it from every quarter.
Consequently, in order to face the situation and to answer growing needs, the department, since its creation, has undertaken tremendous field work programs, research projects and surveys of all kinds.
So that this work might be stepped up, the staff had to be increased, and, in addition, the estimates had to be substantially increased.
5092	HOUSE OF COMMONS
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
I note that the estimates for 1960-61 reach $60 million, which shows the importance of the department.
After noting the estimates for this year and after listening to the minister's comments, I am happy to find that he managed to get action on at least part of the recommendations made last year by the standing committee on mines, forests and waters.
I note that the scientific staff of the surveys and mapping branch has been increased, that the scientific services of the mines branch have been reshuffled, and that a greater number of geologists have been taken on the staff for the coming year.
I am happy to note that someone has been appointed to head the oceanography service.
However, now that we are called upon to vote the necessary sums of money to ensure the proper operation of that department, it is unfortunate that we are not better informed about the practical works now under way or which will be under way soon in the field of geology, geodesy, topography, geophysics, hydrography, etc.
It is true the minister said that this session we will have 88 teams working on geological surveys across the country, as compared to 76 in 1959.
The minister also mentioned, I think, two particular projects, one of which is the polar continental shelf project.
He pointed out to the committee that about 50 employees, most of them scientists, are on their way to the Arctic to undertake certain scientific studies there.
I agree with the minister that those men are no doubt devoted to that particular work and that they deserve our praise, since they are going to spend the finest months of the year in the Arctic, where the temperature is certainly different from the one in our latitude.
I note that this item includes a sum of $1,134,000 for the current year, and I hope it will be substantially increased next year.
The minister also referred to the construction of roads to resources, more particularly in Ontario. This is very interesting. I understand the department is considering a joint study program with the government of that province where, last year I believe airborne geophysical surveys were made.

This year, there is no doubt that those works will continue and I imagine that some of those surveys, carried out by plane, will be checked on the ground, probably during the year, thus making it possible to determine the location of those access roads to resources.
I would have liked the minister to give equal attention to a similar project in my province, a project which deserves our encouragement and which would require the cooperation of the federal government and that of the Quebec government. I would have liked the minister to impress upon the province of Quebec the necessity of carrying out that project.
Now the Quebec government is building a railroad to open up the ore reserves discovered last year in the Mattagami area. The minister referred to that fact, and was indeed quite proud to mention those ore reserves, which, I hope, will be developed as soon as possible. I even hope they will be producing within a few years.
A road is now being built at a cost of $4 million-that is the provincial government's estimate-and mining companies are asked to share in the cost of construction. That does not make sense at a time when the federal government is making available to the provinces a minimum amount of $1,500,000 a year over a 10-year period, or a total of $15 million, provided of course that the provincial government agrees to contribute an equal amount.
Therefore, the highway between Amos and Mattagami should have been built without the help of mining concerns. Not that I object to mining firms contributing to the cost of such a highway, but if the same amount of money were put into research, then there could be more exploration work. More men could be hired for such purposes, and of course, the money spent on exploration work would be a better investment from the point of view of the company.
If the province of Quebec ever decides to build access roads, I hope the minister will bring more pressure to bear. I might add that it will be much easier after June 22, because he will be dealing with a new premier.
Mr. Chairman, I have no choice but to raise this point again and again ask the minister why, when dealing with the estimates of his department, we do not have available a preliminary release on the activities of his

department. For instance, the minister mentioned a moment ago that the geological survey has 88 teams in the field across the country. If we had a release indicating the location of those teams, and showing where the teams of the topographical survey are working during the 1960 season, and the same for every other service in the department, it would for one thing, add a great deal of interest to the committee's task. I know the minister wants the committee to take an interest in the estimates he is submitting to the house. Moreover, we in the committee could deal with them much faster.
In addition, why are we not provided, as in the past, with a brief outline of activities carried out in the previous year? All we have to go by is the annual report for the year 1958, and the comments we have just heard from the minister. I have indicated that his comments were quite interesting. I even pointed out that the minister has given us a number of explanations. However, all those explanations are given at the last minute, and it is the same with the reports.
We do have in hand the report on the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act. This is under the jurisdiction of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys and this report covers the fiscal year ending March 31, 1959. This report was submitted by the minister on April 29, 1959; however, we did not get it until February. I realize it is no fault of the minister's since the report is dated April 29, 1959. It is due to neglect by the printing service for not publishing it earlier. This report is now two years too late and the information it contains covers only part of 1959. It is unfortunate, and I really believe that an effort should be made to make those very important reports available to us sooner.
I do not wish to reopen the debate on the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act but, when we discussed that bill, it was quite important for us to have the necessary information. I realize that the minister will be kind enough to give them to us when we resume debate on the bill, but until then, it is a handicap for hon. members who are concerned with those various measures designed to help an industry in which we are interested.
Now, in another field, Mr. Chairman, there is a point which I would like to draw to the minister's attention. I know that it does not directly concern his department but, on
17, 1960	5093
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys the other hand, I know that the minister is interested and that he may do something in this case.
There is a crown corporation which, since last year, has been doing exploration work in the Northwest Territories. Up to last year it had not done exploration work in new areas. Last year, I do not know why-maybe it was because they were forced to lay off some men-but on the other hand, I see in the report of the Eldorado Mining and Refining Limited that very few employees are engaged in this kind of work, last year, exploration work covered about 8,000 square miles east of the Port Radium mine, at a cost of $358,542.
The 1960 program is divided into two phases. First, work is going ahead on the projects started last year and, second, preliminary surveys are being made in another neighbouring area. Well, if things go on in this way, the first thing we will know, is that exploration work will be undertaken by an agency or a crown corporation, or by crown corporations on a large scale, whereas this field should be left to private enterprise.
I believe that the amounts this crown corporation is spending on exploration work could be much better used, especially in view of the fact that we are complaining of inadequate funds to spend on research.
Last year, for instance, the standing committee on mines, forests and waters, after hearing the officials of the department, learned that the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys might encourage university students to do research work in the mining field.
Mr. Chairman, the money this crown corporation spends on exploration work could be put to much better use. Scholarships could be granted to some of those students under the direct supervision of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys.
I think that the minister should consult his colleague the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Churchill) and look into this matter with him. He could insist that next year the Eldorado Mining and Refining Limited discontinue its exploration work.
Last year, it was alleged that the work was justified because it was carried out near the Port Radium mine. This year, this work is being carried on nearby over a rather wide area. I feel that this work should be discontinued or entrusted to private enterprise.
5094	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
Mr. Chairman, the minister mentioned the prospects of the mining industry. The prospects of this industry are practically unlimited. We have abundant mineral resources, we have the required men for the development of those natural resources. We also have the necessary miners to extract those various minerals.
The minister mentioned also that in 1959 the mineral production reached the record figure of $2.4 billion.
Mr. Chairman, I am very pleased to find that after a rather sharp decline in 1958, mineral production finally reached a peak at the end of 1959. Let us not forget, however, that this amount of $2.4 billion includes $320 million representing the Canadian uranium production during 1959.
This production will not be reduced to such a great extent in 1960; it will probably reach about $275 or $300 million and be maintained between $225 and $250 million until 1966. I suggest that it is in 1966 that we shall probably find it difficult to dispose of those uranium reserves-


Mr. Comiois:: Would the hon. member allow me a question?


Armand Dumas: Yes.


Paul Comtois: Would the hon. member rather I did not mention the uranium situation?


Armand Dumas: Not at all. On the contrary, I am very glad the minister mentioned it.


Paul Comtois: I had to mention the situation of the uranium industry during my remarks.


Armand Dumas: Certainly, but this is the point I wish to make. If it were not uranium it would probably be another mineral, but if we could be assured of maintaining our uranium production during the next 10, 15, 20 or 25 years, or even of increasing it, I am sure that the mineral production would keep on rising on a large scale. However, this is my point: I hope that our mining production will keep up at the highest possible level but the marketing of our minerals is becoming increasingly difficult. The United States are more and more difficult and the best example of this is in the case of uranium.
We had contracts with the United States atomic energy authority for the production of uranium until 1962. As a matter of fact,

the United States were so worried about being short of this important product that they pleaded with Canada to give them options on our uranium production from 1962 to 1966 and the companies concerned granted those options.
In due course, the United States decided not to take up those options and, as I said, we should have urged them, at the time, to meet their commitments. I think that in this way we would have got them to take up at least part of these options. I notice that the minister seems to disapprove; but industrialists and mine owners believe that, if Canada had insisted with the United States, we would have succeeded in getting the American government to take at least part of those options, and in that case we would now perhaps be assured of an annual production of $300 or $325 million for the next eight or ten years, instead of an annual production of $250 million for the next four or five years. So much for the matter of uranium.
As far as base metals, like copper and zinc, are concerned, it is well known that the United States, not quite two years ago, introduced a tax of 1.7 cents a pound on copper and they do not seem to be considering the removal of that tax. This tax is a handicap to our copper producers, and it is known what a quota system on zinc means for the industry. Production has to be curtailed; several mines had to close down and others will have to control their production in order not to exceed their quotas. These are problems in which the government must take interest, and perhaps the Minister of Trade and Commerce should go more often to the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys for advice as far as the sale of our metals, either to the United States or to Europe, is concerned.
In fact, we should probably be able to sell base metals to European countries if we had an aggressive team who would study European markets. People are well aware of the complications arising out of the trading agreements of the European countries, known as the Six and the Seven. We should try to approach the representatives of those countries or try to negotiate with them in order to dispose of a greater quantity of our base metals.
I know that the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys is mostly interested not


only in the production of Canadian metals, but also in their sale. Our domestic consumption takes up only a very small part of our production. Such are the matters on which I would like to call the attention of the minister. And now, Mr. Chairman, concerning the current studies on the polar continental shelf, it should not be forgotten that, in the same field, there are continental shelves adjacent to the provinces too.
I think that certain works have been undertaken. I understood the minister to say that work had been undertaken in the Magdalen islands and that certain projects had also been launched on the coast of New Brunswick and in the gulf of St. Lawrence.
I do not intend to deal at length with this matter now because I want to discuss it in great detail later on, but since it has been made clear in 1958 that the mineral resources of the continental shelf belong to the neighbouring country, I believe the time has come for the federal government to face the situation and to transfer those resources to the provinces, particularly where they are close to the provinces in James bay, in Hudson bay, in the gulf of St. Lawrence and along the Atlantic and Pacific coasts. On the other hand, as far as the provinces of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, and Prince Edward Island are concerned, I believe that we should transfer to them those natural resources that we find on the continental shelf in a certain radius from those provinces.
I think we should transfer to the province of Quebec the resources found in the continental shelf along the gulf of St. Lawrence, close to the province of Quebec. Further, we should transfer to Newfoundland the part concerning that province, along the Labrador coast and around the island of Newfoundland. As to the sections located in Hudson bay and James bay, we should also transfer the relevant portions to the provinces of Quebec and Ontario. On the Pacific coast, such natural resources should be transferred to British Columbia. This is a very important matter. Moreover, we should transfer to the provinces the small islands located along their coasts. This is a problem of great concern to the Canadian people and particularly to the province of Quebec.
I think the minister should consult with his colleagues, the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources (Mr. Hamilton) and even the Prime Minister, and discuss the
17, 1960	5095
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys possibility of transferring the natural resources that are part of the continental shelf to the various provinces along the coast.
I think such action on his part would be highly appreciated not only by the provinces concerned, but by every Canadian. It is a most important matter. Perhaps he will also have an opportunity to discuss this plan with the next premier of the province of Quebec.


Mr.   Chairman-@Text: 


Charles Edward Rea: Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member, but his time has expired.


Some hon. Members:: Carry on.


Charles Edward Rea: Will the committee give unanimous consent to the hon. member to continue?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
(Translation):


Armand Dumas: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I was about to conclude my remarks. However, the problems I just listed are most important.
I want to add another thing. Since the minister mentioned university research grants through the geological commission, I must say that I think this is a good idea, which will benefit not only the mining industry but the whole country. The grants were introduced quite a long time ago. They have been raised to $50,000, and I quite agree with the minister when he says that they should be increased. They should, in fact, be substantially increased, not because the government is being asked to employ more geologists or because some of them are out of work, but because we have large geological projects to carry out. Indeed, we could double the staff of the Canadian geological commission. We are making no mistake in encouraging a greater number of young men to take up geological studies.


Mr. Martin (Essex East):: Especially in the summertime, to encourage students.


Armand Dumas: Especially in the summertime. Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Essex East says that we should encourage students much more. We must give credit to the minister for what he is doing. Last year, many students were jobless. But, as a result of representations made to the department
5096	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys by the geological commission, as well as by the mining industry, the government did employ a greater number of geologists. In view of the slackening tempo of mining operations in private industry, the department was asked to employ a greater number of geologists, and it did so, taking on several young men. I should think that this year a greater number of students will be employed, due to the fact that 88 teams will be at work.
I should like to get more information from the minister about that. Perhaps he might let me have them when we take up the various items of his estimates. Then we will know how many students can be hired for the summer.
Coming back to the matter of grants to universities and grants in aid to students, I think student aid should be continued on a wider scale. We should help students who wish to specialize in mineral research. Should the minister decide to earmark a certain amount in his estimates to provide help for students, he can be assured of my wholehearted support.
(Text):


Douglas Mason Fisher: Mr. Chairman, the act respecting the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys sets out in seven general subsections of section 6 the further duties of the minister other than the general one to have jurisdiction over mines, minerals, explosives and technical surveys. The scope of his responsibility is very wide. It has been my feeling and observation that the department has never had the interest on the part of the government that it should have had. I think this general attitude was substantiated very strongly by the report published last year by the committee on mines, forests and waters. This very same committee considered the estimates of the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources and came up with the suggestion that forestry should have a larger place. The government has given an indication that it is going to move in the direction that the committee wished by creating a department of forestry.
But while the committee's report on the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources was critical to a degree, its report on the minister's department was the most devastating I have encountered of any report made by a parliamentary committee. I was very interested in it since, along with members who in the main are supporters of


the government, I helped to prepare it. I will not claim that I played a large role but I was certainly in general agreement with many of the criticisms. These criticisms were published in the report of the committee which appeared in the minutes and proceedings of the standing committee last year for May 25.
I expected from the minister some resume of how the department has moved to meet the criticisms expressed in that report. I am not going to be critical of the resume he gave us but with regard to almost every phase of the department's activities there was a critical appraisal in the committee's report. One thing I should like to suggest is that the minister concerned should arrange to have his department reviewed next year not by the committee on mines, forests and waters but by the estimates committee of the House of Commons. In view of the very serious criticisms made last year by a committee that was intimately concerned with the subject matter, it seems to me that we need a further review of the department very soon from the spending point of view and an analysis made on the basis of that approach. I hope the minister will consider doing this because I am going to point out some extremely severe criticism in the recommendations of the committee.
I might add that the year before the very same committee examined the department and made a fourth report which was published on July 31, 1958. The 1958 report was not nearly as critical and the committee, of course, did not go as deeply into the affairs of the department. But recommendation No. 11 in the 1958 report was in these words:
Your committee recommends that the government give consideration to the necessity for increasing the department's research program and facilities in order to keep pace with the accelerated tempo of northern development.
That is about the strongest suggestion in that report, but when you turn to the 1959 report you find nothing but strong suggestions or recommendations. I should like to bring to the attention of the minister and the committee the recommendation found in paragraph seven of the committee's report. It is, of course, a reflection on the previous government much more than on the present minister. It reads as follows:
In almost all fields of national scientific endeavour, this department should have led and should lead the way. There is little need for this committee to apportion blame for the present state. Both

the people and those responsible for policy in Canada have been slow to realize the urgent need for expenditure and leadership in this field. The Department of Mines and Technical Surveys, your committee insists, must be recognized as a vitally important one, not one of inferior significance. The scientific function of the department cannot any longer be circumscribed by caution, hesitancy and lack of support. It is imperative that all branches of the department embark on an accelerated program of expansion, and planning for expansion; and that the provision of the needed money, staff and facilities be an immediate consideration of the government.
Let me tell the minister how pleased I am to see that the estimates for this year have been increased by $5,700,000, but I would have been much happier if I had not found that so much of this increase, as a matter of fact $3J million, is going for the construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment. I realize that before you can expand a research program you need these things but I would have liked to see more of the increase this year devoted to the specific areas of research that the committee recommended. I want to go on to point out to the minister where these areas are. I think that perhaps the best place to start is where the committee's criticism was most severe and that is with the mines branch. In that respect the committee had this to say:
The information elicited on the mines branch was depressing. The branch does not have the funds or the staff it needs to carry out the work it should do and wants to do.
When I check the particulars of the estimates I cannot get any great encouragement that the minister is moving in the light of this particular criticism. Another area of the department that was criticized was the dominion coal board. I should like to draw the minister's attention to this statement.
Your committee learned with regret of losses of coal markets in both western and eastern Canada through a lack of liaison between the coal producer and the consumer. Your committee recommends that every possible effort be made to ensure that this situation is corrected.
If we turn to the geological survey of Canada we find the following in paragraph 55:
It is essential that the geological survey must not only keep pace with the mineral industry, but work ahead of it, providing the industry with geological information well in advance. If this objective is not met the function of the survey is not only seriously impaired but, as well, the information which is eventually supplied by the survey will have been obtained at an excessive cost in relation to the effort expended to obtain it. This has proven to be the fact.
That is a very serious criticism of this branch. We were made aware in the committee, and the committee so reported, that
17, 1960	5097
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys the geography division was short of geographers and that so far as geodesy was concerned we had an almost laughable situation compared with the Americans, although the Americans were very weak and puny compared with the Russians. With respect to the surveys and mapping branch the committee made this recommendation:
-the staff increase in this branch should be progressive over the period of the next five years to facilitate training and to increase assimilation.
The report went on to urge that much greater efforts be made in this particular field. It seems to me this was a call by a House of Commons committee to greater effort on the part of the minister to make his department more important. The reasons for urging this have been well put by the previous speaker. The part of the country from which I come, as the minister may know, totals
148,000	square miles, and this is a considerable chunk of the Laurentian shield. The whole hope for the future growth of this area rests on the development of the metal industry, and specifically the iron ore and base metal industries. It is rather disconcerting, in this particular situation, when you have two jurisdictions. We have a provincial jurisdiction and a federal jurisdiction, and there is very little indication of aggressive leadership in this particular field from either one, that is direct encouragement in the base metal or iron ore development.
I have been wanting to tell the minister how very pleased I was to have the opportunity of looking at these particular reports that have been prepared largely by Mr. R. D. Elver of the mineral resources division. This is the kind of survey of the prospects of the iron ore industry of which we should have more and which should be well broadcast so that the people appreciate the opportunity we have.
I might refer to one of these reports by Mr. Elver which came out in March, 1960, entitled "Direct iron ore processes and their prospects in eastern Canada". This is the kind of thing one welcomes from a department such as this. It is an economic survey of a very concrete situation, with an attempt to assess where we may get expansion, and not the least of my interest in this survey comes from the fact that two places are projected as being likely sources of direct iron industries, one being Seven Islands and the other being Port Arthur. I would suggest to the minister that we could stand many more analyses of this type, and the popularization of these analyses should be made on a fairly wide front.
Here again I should like to congratulate the department upon some of the publications it is putting out in an attempt to popularize the department. I am thinking especially of
5098	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys one which was very attractive, the one I have here, which we all received recently. I hope the minister will see that this goes out not only to industry but to regional offices, development associations, chambers of commerce and so on. We are not getting an appreciation of what the department can do.
I must say in this regard that despite my criticism last year I had the opportunity of bringing a sample along certain lines to the minister's officials, and in so far as the assay report was concerned, it was a good economic appreciation. I thought that the reply and service were excellent.
One of the things that concerns me after the mines committee report of last year, and after the statement of the minister, was the fact that the Canadian metal association came out with an argument that they did not want the government to get into any more research. I have not got that particular clipping here, but I know for a fact they particularly did not want the government to get into any more advanced metallurgical research. There was an indication, as I read the comment, which I believe was made by the permanent secretary or secretary manager of that organization, that they felt the industry could take care of its own research in this particular field. The minister is shaking his head, and perhaps I misinterpreted it. I know definitely this was the interpretation I took from the report. I was disappointed in this comment. I hope it will not discourage the department.


Joseph-Roland Comtois: I was not aware of that.


Edwin William Brunsden: Will the hon. member permit a question? Was this criticism of the research a reflection on the national research council?


Douglas Mason Fisher: No, I do not think it was. I think it was specifically a reaction to the indication that this particular department was going to expand its research program. In so far as the national research council is concerned, I may say I knew a young scientist who was working for the minister's department not long ago. He has since moved. I checked, personally, as to why he had moved because he was a friend. It happened to be one of the evenings when the house was not sitting, so he said get in your car and I will show you why. We drove out to one of these old buildings of the mines department, and it was all in darkness. He said, now let us go for a drive out the other way. We went to the national research council building on Sussex street and he said, now look. There were lots of lights on. He showed me another national research council building and there were more lights on. He said, I am so fed up with the business of a scientist in the mines and technical surveys branch being looked upon as


a kind of nine to five job. He said that in the national research council you are given much greater opportunity to work when you possibly can. It is not looked upon as a nine to five job. It is much more exciting; it is much easier to get equipment and have your specifications for an experiment checked. It was for these reasons, this lack of the kind of atmosphere that Dr. Steacie attempts to create in the national research council, perhaps very successfully, that this particular Ph.D. got out of the department. I just mention that to the minister as an indication of the kind of research spirit that needs to prevail in his kind of organization, and to suggest perhaps it does not exist there whereas it could and does in the national research council.
One of the aspects of the department that has been brought into question in my mind relates to its position to other government departments. I might refer in this connection to the uranium industry difficulties. Here we have a mining development that has come a cropper, and come a cropper for perhaps a decade or more. The department that one would think would properly be most concerned with the research aspect and all the other aspects of the problem has had almost nothing to do with it, so far as I know. I do believe it would have been much better, both for the Elliot Lake situation and the situation as a whole, if the minister of mines had been responsible rather than the Minister of Trade and Commerce, even though it may have been a merchandising or marketing problem that fell under that department. Certainly in terms of alternatives, what to do with these uranium properties, certainly in terms of background so far as the mining industry is concerned, it seems to me the mines department had it over trade and commerce.
I think of coal, for example, which is a marketing problem to a degree according to our house committee report. We do not have coal under the Minister of Trade and Commerce. I should like to know from the minister what his department is doing in so far as the uranium industry and its future is concerned. Is there any possibility at all of any of the research that is supposedly being rushed to find alternative uses for uranium originating in his department? Could his department play any role at all in this matter?
One of the specific questions that I wanted to ask the minister was the relationship of his department to the department of northern affairs in so far as this roads to resources program is concerned. As I understand it, one particular mining group in my constituency has a prospect into which they hope to put a fair amount of money. As a

matter of fact, I believe their development program calls for something in excess of $1 million. They applied, and were supported as I understand in their application by nearby communities, to have one of the roads put in partly sponsored by federal funds. I take it from the reply of the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources, the road was turned down and the basis for the turndown was an adverse report on the prospects of this particular property or company or development from the minister's department. I cannot be critical of the turndown because it may have been a proper one, but I should like to know how the information was gathered on this particular matter. In this case, since there so much expectation in our region and so much disappointment over the failure of the road program to go through, I think we would appreciate a full explanation.
The area in economic research which I should especially like to recommend to the minister is the future market for our iron ore in so far as it relates to Europe and the whole prospects of the kind of program that Cyrus Eaton had in contemplation in so far as Greenland, Germany and other parts of Europe are concerned. One of the difficulties for the ordinary member of the public, so far as mining is concerned, is the continual launching or the promotion of gigantic schemes-one might almost call them dreams -of developments here and developments there, assuming parts of Canada are always next year country or next decade country, not a little owing to the promotional imagination of people in the mining field. I think the kind of sober, thorough assessment that we should have here could be done on a wider scale and bring a bit more realism into this particular picture.
Another point I wanted to refer to was touched upon by the hon. member for Villeneuve, namely the question of jurisdiction or actual ownership of the continental shelf. I think the minister is aware of the fact that the regulations promulgated by the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources in so far as oil exploration is concerned, as I understand them, indicate that the federal government has decided to claim that jurisdiction. I have not any quarrel with this decision. It is regrettable to me and to my associates that a number of our natural resources were allowed to lapse, especially in the thirties, by the provinces; but I would appreciate from the minister a statement in this regard especially from the point of view of what consideration the government is giving. Were the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys and the officials
17, 1960	5099
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys who are carrying out continental shelf projects and surveys consulted before the minister of northern affairs came out with these regulations? Is there any indication that the provinces are objecting to this particular approach? If so, generally what are the views of the minister and his officials on the matter? It seems to me this is a most legitimate point to have brought out.
The question of the geological survey and its relationship to students has been covered by the minister to a degree. Several years ago he gave me a reply that indicated there was a limited role the department could play in so far as the undergraduate is concerned. This particular summer is a very hard one on university students, just as was the one two years ago. It was an especially hard one two years ago, as the minister will recall, for students in geology. I wonder what consideration the minister has given to making a more flexible program that may be able to adjust quickly to a developing situation such as that which is upon us this summer when there is a great shortage of opportunities for many students in fields that relate to mining. I am thinking not only of geology but of mining engineering and other fields such as geography and the like, where students can get an exceptionally good part of their training in working on these particular surveys.
We have every reason to be prouder, I think, of the geological survey than of any other branch of the Canadian government. I think a case could be made for the proposition that it has been the most important and the best section of government in almost any real terms in our Canadian history. It is certainly the oldest of the scientific branches and it has made a contribution to the development of Canada that no one can really get into good focus, not the least because of these promotional extravangazas and the tendency to build up our mining picture historically upon the basis of types like Sir Harry Oakes. Long before Sir Harry Oakes, Gilbert LaBine and people like them were abroad in the land they had these geological teams far ahead, sometimes 50 and 60 years ahead.
We were talking a few weeks ago about Red Lake and the coming back of certain mines there. Robert Bell, a very distinguished man from Queen's University, in 1872 and 1873 was up in the Red Lake mining area long before the railroad was put through there and spotted these green stone formations on which the Howey camp developed. He also spotted the greenstone formation in lake Minnitaki that runs down through Atikokan on which many of our other best deposits have come along.
The prospectors throughout Canada and the geologists of private organizations lean

Private Bills
very much upon the records of this particular organization. I know that the library for which I work in Port Arthur was successful in obtaining a complete file of the geological surveys from 1848 up to 1935. It obtained it through the good graces of a famous geologist by the name of Dr. Baker. After getting it a private geologist came in and made the acknowledgement that this collection in its complete form and in such good shape was worth thousands of dollars to him. It was very useful for practical exploration even at this stage, even some of the older reports touching back into the 1870's. This underlines so much of the work that has been done. It is unfortunate to me that greater recognition has not been given to the pioneers of this particular branch. I think of Dr. Owen, Dr. Bell-


Charles Edward Rea: Order. It being five o'clock, in order to permit the house to proceed to the consideration of private and public bills, in pursuance of section 3 of standing order 15 it is my duty to rise, report certain resolutions and request leave to sit later this day or at the next sitting of this house, as the case may be.
Resolutions adopted in committee of supply this day reported and concurred in.


Mr. Speaker:: It being five o'clock, the house will now proceed to the consideration of private and public bills, the former having precedence.



PRIVATE BILLS

Mr. Nicholas Mandziuk (Marquette):: Before you leave the chair, Mr. Speaker, may I ask leave of the house to request that consideration be given to according precedence to several private bills and to changing the order as listed under the private bills item? The bills about which I am speaking are as follows: item No. 263, Bill No. S-29, to incorporate Allstate Insurance Company of Canada; item No. 264, Bill No. S-30, to incorporate Western Surety Company; item No. 265, Bill No. S-33, to incorporate the Wawanesa Mutual Life Insurance Company; and item No. 266, Bill No. S-34, respecting the Wawanesa Mutual Insurance Company.


Mr. Speaker:: Is the house prepared to consider all these bills together?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.



CONSIDERED IN COMMITTEE


[Stage Direction]
Bill No. S-29, to incorporate Allstate Insurance Company of Canada.-Mr. Mandziuk.
Bill No. S-30, to incorporate Western Surety Company.-Mr. Mandziuk.

Bill No. S-34, respecting the Wawanesa Mutual Insurance Company.-Mr. Mandziuk.

[Stage Direction]
The house in committee on Bill No. S-33, to incorporate the Wawanesa Mutual Life Insurance Company-Mr. Mandziuk-Mr. Rea in the chair.
On clause 1-Incorporation.
Lionel Chevrier: May I ask the reason why there are two bills dealing with the same company, one to incorporate and another dealing with another matter? Could they not have been dealt with in the same bill?


J. Nicholas (Nick) Mandziuk: I am very pleased to answer that question. The parent company is the Wawanesa Mutual Insurance Company, one of the largest strictly Canadian companies, and the offspring of this fire and casualty company is this new incorporation.


Edwin William Brunsden: I should like to ask the
sponsor of this bill if he feels from his knowledge of the life insurance business that the interests of the premium holders in this new company are adequately protected.


J. Nicholas (Nick) Mandziuk: WTaen the incorporation of this life insurance company was considered in the banking and commerce committee the superintendent of insurance, Mr. MacGregor, gave his opinion on practically all these questions. Anyone taking out a policy under the company will become a member of the company. It is connected with the parent company, that is the mutual insurance company which writes fire and casualty insurance, only to the extent of the cash that is going to be advanced according to the provisions in the bill to the life insurance company subject to repayment later. The life insurance company when incorporated according to the provision in the charter will not be able to commence business until this advance of funds has been made by the parent company.


Edwin William Brunsden: I am not too sure that the Wawanesa Mutual Insurance Company has always protected its policyholders. I am speaking in respect of casualty and other lines, and I want to be assured before this bill is passed that there will be some very definite responsibility accepted by the company on behalf of policyholders.


J. Nicholas (Nick) Mandziuk: As to the dealings carried on by the Wawanesa Mutual Insurance Company in both fire and casualty departments, that can hardly be questioned. The superintendent of insurance advised the committee that for every large company operating in Canada they have a complaints file, but they

have no such file in respect of the Wawanesa Insurance Company which is regarded as one of the best insurance companies in Canada as far as settlements and financial conditions are concerned.
The Wawanesa Mutual has assets of almost $30 million, and a surplus of over $8 million. That surely protects the interests of the policyholders as far as fire and casualty are concerned. Of course, the company to be incorporated to write life insurance starts off with the guaranteed fund that is to be advanced by the fire insurance company from its surplus funds.


[Stage Direction]
Clause agreed to.
Clauses 2 to 13 inclusive agreed to.
Preamble agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.
Mr. R. J. McCleave (Halifax):: Mr. Speaker, before you leave the chair I was going to suggest that there are a number of divorce bills standing on the order paper for second reading. I think the hon. member for Skeena (Mr. Howard) wishes to speak to Bill No. SD-320 which is order No. 267. Perhaps the other bills could be given second reading and then the hon. member would be given an opportunity to speak to Bill No. SD-320 if it is his wish to do so and then we could go into committee on the other divorce bills.


Frank Howard: You may proceed in that fashion, Mr. Speaker.


Mr. Speaker:: Is the house prepared to take out of their order the divorce bills standing for second reading in one motion?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.



SECOND READINGS


[Stage Direction]
Bill No. SD-427 for the relief of Lucien Dubuc.-Mr. McCleave.
Bill No. SD-428 for the relief of Aino Maria Leinonen Knudson.-Mr. McCleave.
Bill No. SD-429 for the relief of Mildred May Ghenender Greenspon.-Mr. McCleave.
Bill No. SD-430 for the relief of Gordon Lang Chessbrough.-Mr. McCleave.
Bill No. SD-431 for the relief of Charles Guy Comeau.-Mr. McCleave.
Bill No. SD-432 for the relief of Frida Rosen-Deutcher Falovitch.-Mr. McCleave.
Bill No. SD-433 for the relief of Elizabeth Giliaeff Jahn.-Mr. McCleave.
Bill No. SD-434 for the relief of Myrna Ada Webber Neiman.-Mr. McCleave.
Bill No. SD-435 for the relief of Ellery Gordon Duncan.-Mr. McCleave.
Private Bills-Divorce
Bill No. SD-436 for the relief of Sarah Wolman Rothman.-Mr. McCleave.
Bill No. SD-437 for the relief of Dragan Baljak.-Mr. McCleave.
Bill No. SD-438 for the relief of Glenda Ruth Warren Meades.-Mr. McCleave.
Bill No. SD-439 for the relief of Robert Hugh Parker.-Mr. McCleave.
Bill No. SD-440 for the relief of Catherine Hetty Dawson Gilbert Cathcart.-Mr. McCleave.
Bill No. SD-441 for the relief of Sheila Alexandra Anderson Williams.-Mr. McCleave.
Bill No. SD-442 for the relief of Georges Justin Goeury.-Mr. McCleave.
Bill No. SD-443 for the relief of Gabrielle Labranche Bisaillon.-Mr. McCleave.
Bill No. SD-444 for the relief of Maurice Joseph Martel.-Mr. McCleave.
Bill No. SD-445 for the relief of Ula Geraldine Taylor Gauthier.-Mr. McCleave.
Bill No. SD-446 for the relief of Margaret Veronica Stacey Abraham.-Mr. McCleave.
Bill No. SD-447 for the relief of Colette Bauer Landau.-Mr. McCleave.
Bill No. SD-448 for the relief of Margot Buerling Zich.-Mr. McCleave.
Bill No SD-449 for the relief of Barbara Helen Watson Coones.-Mr. McCleave.
Bill No. SD-450 for the relief of Bertha Jacqueline Alice Sweetinburgh Glynne-Percy. -Mr. McCleave.
Bill No. SD-451 for the relief of Alphonse Taghon.-Mr. McCleave.
Bill No. SD-452 for the relief of Paul Morency.-Mr. McCleave.
Bill No. SD-453 for the relief of Mary Jean Frances Collins Park.-Mr. McCleave.
Bill No. SD-454 for the relief of Martine Simonne Georgette Krettly Lefebvre.-Mr. McCleave.
Bill No. SD-455 for the relief of Elizabeth Davis Reed.-Mr. McCleave.
Mr. Speaker:: Pursuant to standing order 105 the said bills are referred to the standing committee on miscellaneous private bills.



ELSA FAIGA MANACE GROSSMAN

Robert Jardine McCleave: the second reading of Bill No. SD-320, for the relief of Elsa Faiga Manace Grossman.


Frank Howard: Mr. Speaker,
I wish to raise three points in connection with this case to which I think serious consideration should be given. The first is an

Private Bills-Divorce
examination as to whether there was a marriage and if so should that marriage be dissolved. The second point concerns an examination as to whether there is proper domicile within a province which would allow this bill to be presented to parliament. If there is not proper domicile it may be determined that parliament has no jurisdiction. The third point concerns an examination of the basis on which dissolution of the marriage is sought. Adultery is alleged and we must examine whether adultery took place. The committee of the other place and the other chamber itself has dealt with the bill and passed it through its various stages.
Because this is the first occasion on which I have a recollection of your being in the chair, Mr. Speaker, during a discussion on second reading of divorce bills, perhaps I should state that I seek permission to follow my usual practice of refraining from mentioning the names and addresses of the people involved in this case.
The petition reads as follows:
The petition of-
Giving the name of the petitioner.
-teacher, of the city of Toronto, province of Ontario,
Humbly Sheweth:	.
1. That your petitioner was lawfully married to-
Giving the name of the respondent.
-on or about the 7th day of September, A.D. 1954, at the city of Toronto, province of Ontario, your petitioner's maiden name being-presently residing at-
Giving the address.
__in the city of Toronto, province of Ontario,
with her parents-
Giving their names.
-and your petitioner, moreover, was never married before her marriage to the respondent herein.
The petitioner under oath produced documentary evidence as proof of her marriage. The marriage took place in Toronto but the evidence reveals that the respondent has always been domiciled in Montreal. I submit that we have jurisdiction to deal with divorce from any province of Canada on any grounds whatsoever.
Now, with respect to the allegation of adultery-and it is in this respect that I should like to give some pertinent detailed references in the evidence itself if I am permitted to do so-


Mr. Speaker:: Before the hon. member proceeds, I am concerned with the propriety of any detailed discussion of the evidence on second reading. The matter before the house is the principle of the bill, which is to dissolve the marriage of these people. The hon. member is, I think, within his rights in drawing the attention of the house to the fact
[Mr. Howard.!
that the principle should not be endorsed by the house because there are three defects, or three variations from the normal practice of the house in granting divorce by act of parliament. But when it comes to proving or substantiating these matters in detail it would seem to me that the proper place to do that would be in committee. I think the hon. member can make his point if he has any doubt about the proof of adultery but not to discuss the evidence in detail here.


Frank Howard: Mr. Speaker, if I gave an indication to you that that was what I was trying to do, it is not the point which I was leading up to. I have no quarrel at this stage -as you have indicated perhaps I should have -with whether adultery had been committed and whether, following the practice of this house and of the other place, there is sufficient ground to dissolve the marriage. I have reference to the evidence produced before the committee in the other place but no reference to the question of whether adultery had or had not taken place.
My reference is to an entirely different matter and I hope to found upon this particular reference which I wish to make, which involves civil and human rights, a motion which would indicate that this house should not at this time consider second reading until another body has had an opportunity to consider this other matter. That is what I was leading toward and that is what I hope to make reference to by referring to the evidence itself. Therefore, if I may I should like to refer to page 14 of the evidence. This is the evidence by Mr. George Roland Foucher, age 43, who resides in Montreal. His occupation is an investigator. He appeared as a witness on behalf of the petitioner. He was sworn and testified as follows. I will paraphrase it. They went to a particular place and there they found certain things. If I can specify it, I should like to read from page 14 as follows: He made reference to the respondent and corespondent and said:
They had been in for over a couple of hours- we moved to the door and after knocking on it, the subject himself came to the door and opened it partly. I pushed on the door and we both rushed in and were met by a loud yell of pain inside, and just as we looked behind the door Mr.-was sitting in a wicker chair holding onto his foot. Our reaction was to ask him what happened-
I submit this is the normal reaction of someone who bursts into your premises. He found this man holding his foot. In any event, he followed the normal procedure and asked what happened. I continue:
-and he said that by pushing the door open I had knocked on his foot and he had a couple of broken toes.

It is not clear to me whether he had a couple of broken toes before and this action had injured them further, or whether he had a couple of broken toes as a result of the door being pushed open.


Mr. Speaker:: I am not clear that I follow the point of the evidence in relation to the second reading of the bill. I am not sure what the hon. member's argument is with respect to approving the principle of the granting of this divorce. If he is able to state it I wish he would. If he is not, I suggest he leave the reading of the evidence to when we are in committee.


Frank Howard: I think perhaps I shall be able to show that without any difficulty, Mr. Speaker. This is what I was leading up to in that slight reference. Let me indicate to you in a general way what I was trying to do. I think perhaps I have proceeded far enough with the reading of the evidence about people pushing the door open and knocking on someone's toes and either breaking them or injuring them additionally where they had been broken. The witness then goes on to say that the man in question was more concerned about his foot than talking to them about the purpose of their visit which, I submit, is a perfectly reasonable thing to expect. The point I am leading to, is that this invasion of the privileges and rights, human rights, civil rights and civil liberties of that person should not be condoned and that a person should not have his premises invaded arbitrarily, such as was done here.
What I am submitting is that before this house proceeds to give second reading to this bill we might properly refer the subject matter thereof to another body established under authority of this parliament, an authority which deals in the field of litigation, deals in the field of human and civil rights, an organization for which all of us have respect and admiration in Canada. I suggest the subject matter of this bill should be referred to that group in order that we may ask that group to pass upon not only what I have read here so far but upon other factors which are substantiated in the evidence and with which I do not intend to deal at this time. I think this matter should be referred to that other body so that they may take cognizance of it and determine whether or not civil rights and human rights, the right of an individual to privacy, have or have not been invaded.


Robert Jardine McCleave: Don't be a hypocrite. You are destroying their rights in this house.


Frank Howard: Mr. Speaker-


Robert Jardine McCleave: Hypocrisy.
79951-0-322
Private Bills-Divorce


Frank Howard: It is not my intention to be drawn into a side discussion by those to whom I have referred as preferring to talk from their seats rather than from their places in the house. If my hon. friend, whoever it was, down in that corner wishes to make reference to hypocrites I suggest to him with all deference, with all due respect-and I am only assuming that it was the hon. member for Halifax-


Robert Jardine McCleave: Mr. Speaker, on a question of privilege, it was the member for Halifax who has put up with a great deal of nonsense from that particular corner and who is glad he is far removed from it so he cannot smell the odour from it.


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member for Halifax is taking liberties which he should not take in this chamber in using offensive language to the hon. member who has the floor.


Frank Howard: Mr. Speaker, it is not my intention to complain about the reference of the hon. member for Halifax to hypocrisy.


Mr. Speaker:: I hope the hon. member will not proceed with that subject.


Frank Howard: No; I do not ask him to withdraw. This is one thing I do not want to do. If the hon. member for Halifax wants to make those allegations and stand by them, that is his privilege, especially if he wants to make them by hiding behind his privileges and remaining in his seat.


Mr. Speaker:: If the hon. member is speaking on a question of privilege he may do so. If he is speaking on second reading I wish he would proceed.


Frank Howard: The hon. member for Halifax raised a question of privilege. This is what I was dealing with.


Mr. Speaker:: I thought that was disposed of.


Frank Howard: If you have disposed of it, then I appreciate the manner in which you have done so. It was done in such a delicate way that there is no escape from it. The reference I am making to the evidence has to do with whether the rights of individuals to liberty, the rights of individuals to have their domicile, whether it be a home they own or a hotel or motel room they rent for the night, free from invasion, are to be protected. I say that we should refer to another body which has had considerable experience in this field the question of whether or not these human and civil rights have been invaded and ask that body to give an opinion to the house on the basis of their study and consideration of the matter. That is all I was leading up to and that is

Private Bills-Divorce
why I referred to the particular part of the evidence which I recited. On that basis I would therefore move, seconded by the hon. member for Timiskaming (Mr. Peters):
That this bill be not now read a second time but that the subject matter thereof be referred to the Supreme Court of Canada for examination and report thereon.


Robert Jardine McCleave: Mr. Speaker, before the motion is put I wish to argue, and I think I can do so effectively, that the amendment is clearly out of order in that it is not within the competence of the house to pass upon such a question.


Mr. Speaker:: I would be very appreciative of any assistance which can be given by the hon. member for Halifax on the question whether or not there is provision for reference of a question of this kind by the House of Commons to the Supreme Court of Canada and for the Supreme Court of Canada to receive such a reference and deal with it. If the amendment would be nugatory in the sense that it could not be carried out, then I would think its regularity might be questioned.


Robert Jardine McCleave: Mr. Speaker, that was
exactly the point I was going to raise. If such a motion were sent to the Supreme Court of Canada their lordships would hardly know how to deal with it. It would not come to them in any regular fashion or through any regular process of law. I can understand that my hon. friend has perhaps got himself into this difficulty because he does not understand what the ordinary process of law means.
With respect to the bruised or broken toes of the respondent's husband, a remedy was clearly available in the courts. If he had wished to do so he could have taken the matter into the police court and charged Foucher and his associate with trespass or with having occasioned him bodily harm. He had these remedies open to him. But I know of no authority whereby a reference can be made to the Supreme Court of Canada when no grounds are stated but merely a general opinion is sought. Surely the highest court in the land should not be burdened with dealing with a matter with respect to which rights already exist under the law if the respondent had wished to pursue them. According to the evidence, he did not choose to do so and I cannot see any point in the hon. member trying to protect somebody who did not try to protect himself.


Mr. Speaker:: If I may interrupt the hon. member, perhaps he will have given consideration to whether there is any authority or precedent for a reference by the House of Commons to the Supreme Court of Canada

for advice on any matter and whether there is any power in the Supreme Court of Canada to receive and deal with such a reference.


Robert Jardine McCleave: I think that would require reference to the act which sets up the Supreme Court of Canada. If that were done a definite answer could probably be given to your question. However, I submit that the burden surely must rest on those who propound such an amendment to show that this is a proper course of action, and no attempt has been made to do that.


Frank Howard: If I may speak on the point of order, Mr. Speaker, raised by the hon. member for Halifax, I should like to point out to him that it is completely irrelevant whether the respondent took any action or chose not to do so. The last point mentioned by the hon. member, whether or not we have the authority to take such a course, is the one to which we should address ourselves. As suggested by the hon. member for Halifax, I should like to draw to your attention, Mr. Speaker, a statute passed by this house, being an act respecting the Supreme Court of Canada, chapter 259 of the Revised Statutes of Canada, 1952, which was amended by chapter 48 of the statutes of 1956, although the amendment is not relevant to this matter. I refer Your Honour to section 56 of the Supreme Court Act, this being the short title, which reads as follows:
The court-
The definition section indicates what the court is.
-or any two judges thereof, shall examine and report upon any private bill-
Of which this is one.
-or petition for a private bill-
There is a petition attached in this instance.
-presented to the Senate or House of Commons, and referred to the court under any rules or orders made by the Senate or House of Commons.
I submit that the House of Commons and the Senate together determined by enacting section 56 that under this section any private bill or petition for a private bill presented to the Senate or the House of Commons may be referred to the court under any rules or orders made by the Senate or House of Commons. I think there are perhaps no rules so far as the House of Commons are concerned. To my knowledge this has not occurred before. As there are no rules, we must look to the question of orders. If the house passes an order such as that to which I have alluded the matter would be referred to the Supreme

Court of Canada for its consideration and report thereon. I submit that the amendment is entirely in order pursuant to section 56 of the Supreme Court Act.


Mr. Baldwin:: On the point of order, Mr. Speaker, it seems to me that the section read by the hon. member for Skeena clearly indicates that the amendment he has placed before the house is quite out of order. As I heard it read, section 56 suggests that there is a right in the Supreme Court of Canada but the Supreme Court of Canada is a statutory court created by the parliament of Canada and only has jurisdiction to deal with such cases and such matters by way of petition or otherwise as come clearly within the four corners of the act itself. There is no right in the court as of right unless the statute itself says that these matters may be brought before the court.
The section to which the hon. member referred only deals with such petitions or private bills as come within our rules. I have looked through the rules and I am sure there is no rule in our standing orders making any such provision. If I am wrong, perhaps the hon. member might refer me to it. I am relying on my memory but so far as I can recall there is no rule in our standing orders which makes provision for the transmitting of any petition or private bill directly from this house to the Supreme Court of Canada. I think the provision in the act says in effect that if we should choose to establish a rule then the Supreme Court of Canada can and would be bound to hear the matter, but in the absence of such a rule the amendment is clearly out of order.


Mr. MacLean (Winnipeg Norih Centre):: should like to speak to the point of order. If the hon. member was a member of the house committee last session-I do not recall whether or not he was-he would remember that this same problem arose at that time with regard to whether a committee had the power to come before the house and ask the house to make a motion to the effect that the attorney general investigate certain matters. We had before us then a precedent-I have not got the citation with me and I cannot remember the precise information-to the effect that the only request the house could make of the attorney general, or in this case the supreme court, would be one which related to something which happened before the committee itself, that is if there were perjury in the evidence or some offence committed before a committee of the house.
Here we have a motion based on an allegation connected with an investigation of some incident that happened outside of the house in one of the provinces of this country.
79951-0-3221
Private Bills-Divorce
The incident did not occur before a committee of this house, and according to the information given to us last year I would suggest that this motion is entirely out of order.


Frank Howard: May I be permitted to speak further to the point of order, Mr. Speaker? I would deal with the reference by the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. MacLean) first. As I understand what he said, he did not recall what had happened last year and did not have the reference before him, but it had something to do with the fact that a committee, I assume a standing committee of the house such as the miscellaneous private bills committee; that this house had no authority to deal with anything of this nature until the committee had reported. I think, on the face of it-


John Douglas Campbell MacLean: No,
that is not what I meant at all.


Frank Howard: Perhaps I misunderstood what the hon. member intended to say. In any event, I think it is irrelevant. The hon. member said he has not the particular reference before him and he is only conjecturing as to the effect of it.


John Douglas Campbell MacLean: Perhaps I could clear that up before we go on.


Mr. Speaker:: Order; I will hear the hon. member later.


Frank Howard: In so far as the hon. member for Peace River (Mr. Baldwin) is concerned, as I understood his remarks he said that we have the right to refer matters to the Supreme Court of Canada only if there are rules. I would point out that the Supreme Court Act is not specific. It is not a specific reference under the rules, but it says, refer to the court under any rules or orders. I submit that if the house has the motion properly before it, and if it deems it wise to pass the motion, then it becomes an order of reference to the supreme court. We have no rules, there is no specific rule and because the wording of that section is general, we then consider it under the item of orders. I submit that if there were rules they would be the standing orders, I presume.
The section says that matters of this nature may be referred to the supreme court, and if there were rules they would set up this procedure for referring such matters to the supreme court, and the manner in which that could be done. The Supreme Court Act is general and refers to any rules. Since we have no rules I submit we are at liberty to hold that the motion is in order because it falls under the classification of orders. If the

Private Bills-Divorce
motion were passed, it would then be an order of the house for a reference to the Supreme Court of Canada.


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member for Skeena has submitted an amendment which raises a point which is rather novel in that it suggests a reference of the subject matter of this bill to the Supreme Court of Canada, an action for which there is no precedent as I am advised, although there are precedents for such action being taken by the Senate which appears to have established a procedure for so doing. The section of the act under which this reference is sought to be made provides that the court or any two of the judges thereof shall examine and report upon any private bill or petition for a private bill presented to the Senate or the House of Commons. The amendment seeks to refer the subject matter of this bill, and not the bill itself. I think in that sense the motion is defective.
The other point which was raised was that the section of the Supreme Court Act to which I referred goes on to say that the matter must be referred to the court under rules or orders made by the Senate or House of Commons. The point is made; "what is meant is rules or standing orders," and that is met by the argument of the hon. member for Skeena (Mr. Howard) that an order of the house would come within the section, an order referring this matter would be an order within the meaning of that section of the act. I rather think that the other opinion is the better one because rules and orders are referred to in the plural and as synonymous. Our orders are called standing orders, and if the House of Commons chose to use this machinery for a reference to the supreme court, presumably they would have established standing orders by which the reference could be made, which we have not done.
However, I have some doubt on that point and if the matter turned on that point I would prefer to reserve it and give consideration to it. Since the amendment as submitted seems not to come within the section on rather narrow grounds, namely that the reference must be of a private bill or petition, not of the subject matter thereof, I rule the amendment out of order.


Frank Howard: Mr. Speaker, it is-


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member has spoken, and he is not entitled to speak again. I have given my ruling and the hon. member has spoken on this motion, so he is not entitled to speak again.


Frank Howard: Perhaps I was presuming to appeal your ruling.


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member has a right to appeal the ruling. If he is rising for that purpose, he may say so.


Frank Howard: If I am prevented from speaking again, then I would appeal your ruling to the house.


Mr. Speaker:: I have given my ruling. There is no point in debating it after it has been given. The hon. member is at liberty to take such course as he feels is necessary.


Mr. Erhart Regier (Burnaby-Coquillam):: I may with your leave, Mr. Speaker, I should like to move, seconded by the hon. member for Timmins (Mr. Martin), the motion that has been moved except that I should like to amend it by putting in the words "this bill", where the words "the subject matter of this bill" are now.


Mr. Speaker:: Would the hon. member present his motion properly in writing and the Chair will be glad to consider it.
I now have a motion, moved by the hon. member for Burnaby-Coquitlam (Mr. Regier) and seconded by the hon. member for Timmins (Mr. Martin), in these terms:
That this bill be referred to the Supreme Court of Canada.
By leave of the house, I should like to reserve my view on this amendment, if that would be possible, because it raises a matter of some consequence. I think it is desirable, in establishing a precedent, to be sure it is in accordance with our practice and procedures. Perhaps the hon. member would move or the house would consent to the adjournment of the debate to give consideration to this proposed amendment; is that agreed?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Mr. Speaker:: Debate adjourned by consent.


Robert Jardine McCleave: It is now close to six o'clock, Mr. Speaker. It would be a simple matter for any hon. member to read into the record for ten minutes some of the evidence in one of these cases. Unless there is going to be agreement to get some of these cases out of the way today, I think that perhaps it could be called six o'clock.


Mr. Speaker:: Does the house agree that it it six o'clock?


Some hon. Members:: Six o'clock.


Mr. Churchill:: The Minister of Finance (Mr. Fleming) would like permission to revert to motions at this stage.


Mr. Speaker:: Has the minister leave to revert to motions?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.

Business of the House Mr. Speaker: Is that agreed?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.



INCOME TAX ACT


Hon. Donald M. Fleming (Minister of Finance):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to give the house notice of three amendments which will be proposed on Monday to Bill No. C-68, to amend the Income Tax Act. I have endeavoured to give the house notice of all such amendments in advance. If it met with the wish of the house, these amendments could be printed in today's Votes and Proceedings and be available to hon. members when the bill is taken up on Monday.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Lionel Chevrier: May I ask the house leader whether there is any change in the order of business announced last night for next week?


Gordon Minto Churchill: No. There is no change in the legislative program for Monday.


[Stage Direction]
At six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[Stage Direction]
Questions