1960-06-24

Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, today our Frenchspeaking fellow Canadians throughout Canada are rejoicing for they are celebrating St. John the Baptist day, in honour of their patron saint.
Even if members of this house do not all share in the same traditions, I am sure, however, that all of them will join me in tendering to our French-speaking colleagues and to all French Canadians of this country our best wishes on this festive occasion.
The elements of the Canadian nationality are many and not easily definable. It is generally recognized, however, that one of the features of our nationality is the free association, over a period of two centuries, of two cultures, two traditions, for the achievement of one great Canada.
It is fitting that each year our Frenchspeaking fellow citizens relive the finest pages of their history, which is the history of all Canada, since their gallant forebears extended their activity to the furthermost reaches of our country.


Hon. L. B. Pearson (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, I and the members of our party wish to subscribe to the words spoken by the Prime Minister (Mr. Diefenbaker).
As the Prime Minister has just said, on this patron saint's day of French Canadians, though we are of different racial origins, we have often had occasion to pay tribute to our French-speaking fellow Canadians for their great contribution to the development, unity, vigour and wisdom of this country.


Mr. Chevrier:: Hear, hear.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, I should like to repeat the statement made a few months ago by the distinguished chancellor of the University of Toronto:
Our country has been enriched by both our ancestral cultures, and each ethnic group should retain its way of life and heritage, while respecting those of the other. May our patriotism be haunted by the dream of unity of our two great
races. However, let us pray God that it be unity in diversity, and that each group remain true to its past.
(Text):
Mr. Speaker, may I also remind the house that this is an important day for Newfoundland. It is, if I may call that, their national day, Discovery day. So may I also pay my tribute to the contribution of courage and determination that the people of Newfoundland have made to the development not only of their own historic nation but to the confederation of which they are now part. (Translation):


Mr. Hazen Argue (Assiniboia):: Mr. Speaker, it is fitting to celebrate the French fact in Canada. I am happy to associate myself with the Prime Minister (Mr. Diefenbaker) and with the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Pearson), on St. John the Baptist day, in congratulating those of my fellow citizens who speak French much better than I do.
(Text):
I also wish to associate this group with the words of the Leader of the Opposition in acknowledging the great contribution which the province of Newfoundland is making to the Canadian nation, and to wish our fellow citizens in that province the very best in the years to come.


Hon. W. J. Browne (Minister without Portfolio):: As the member for St. John's West I should like to thank both the Leader of the Opposition and the hon. member for Assiniboia for the kind remarks they have made with regard to Newfoundland this day. This is the 463rd anniversary of the discovery of Newfoundland by John Cabot. It is true that the first part of Newfoundland which he saw in the early morning was Bonavista-Twil-lingate-


Mr. Pickersgill:: Bonavista.


William Joseph Browne: -when he said, "Oh, happy sight". But on the same day he went into the beautiful landlocked harbour of St. John's, which therefore received its name from the feast day on which it was discovered. The people of Quebec are today celebrating the feast of St. John the Baptist. Newfoundland is expanding and its population is growing; large groups of people from Newfoundland now live in Montreal and Toronto. If French-Canadians and Newfoundlanders could get together, perhaps we could make this a national feast day for Canada.

Public Service


John Whitney Pickersgill: Would the hon. member permit a question? Does he not think that two days ago the Newfoundlanders and the Quebeckers did get together?


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


John George Diefenbaker: Before turning to another subject, may I say I am sure that when the Leader of the Opposition, the hon. member for Assiniboia and myself spoke French a minute ago, there was not an English speaking member of the house who did not understand, even without the benefit of the translation system.



PUBLIC SERVICE


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I have an announcement to make, of the resignation of Mr. Wilbur R. Jackett, Q.C. as deputy minister of justice effective as of July 1. In announcing the resignation of Mr. Jackett I should like to express on behalf of the government our great appreciation for the service he has rendered since he first joined the department in 1939. Since May 1, 1957 he has been an outstanding deputy minister of that department.
At the same time I wish to announce the appointment as deputy minister of justice, effective July 1, of Mr. Elmer A. Driedger, Q.C. who has been assistant deputy minister. Mr. Driedger was born in Saskatchewan, as was Mr. Jackett, and following admission to the bar in that province he came to Ottawa in June, 1940, as law librarian of the Supreme Court of Canada. In December 1941 he was transferred to the legal branch of the Department of Justice as junior advisory counsel. Subsequently, on April 1, 1945 he became senior advisory counsel, and assistant deputy minister on July 1, 1954.
I do not think I need say anything more regarding Mr. Driedger, other than that he has devoted most of his time to the preparation of the government's legislative program and has taken a leading part in the advisory functions of the Department of Justice. He is recognized as an outstanding member of the bar and is one who I know will adorn the position to which he has been appointed.
There are two other appointments to be made and announced shortly. They are associate deputy ministers of justice, each having the rank and status of a deputy head of the department. One of these will be French speaking and the other English speaking.
[Mr. Browne (St. John's Westj.l


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, we on this side of the house would like to associate ourselves with the words of appreciation the Prime Minister has just uttered in connection with the deputy minister of justice who is retiring. Mr. Jackett has served his country in this position for many years now effectively and with devotion. He will be greatly missed in the public service. Our sense of loss, however, is minimized to some extent by the Prime Minster's announcement that Mr. Jackett will be succeeded by Mr. Driedger, who has been long in the department, has served it well and I am sure will be a very adequate deputy minister in every respect.



NATIONAL ENERGY BOARD


Hon. Gordon Churchill (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to table two copies of a report by the national energy board on two applications for licences to export gas to the United States. Both these applications involve small volumes of gas and both, in effect, represent renewals or extensions of existing export licences.
The Canadian-Montana Pipe Line Company has been exporting gas from Alberta to the state of Montana since 1952. The existing licence expires September 1, 1960. The new licence applied for would terminate on May 14, 1974, the same date on which its Alberta permit and the federal power commission permit to the Montana Power Company to import gas into the United States expire.
The national energy board found that the total quantity of gas proposed to be exported exceeded the established reserves for the fields from which the gas would be removed, and accordingly reduced the total quantity of gas which the applicant might export over the period of the new licence from some 268 billion cubic feet to 190 billion cubic feet.
The second application, that of Gordon Plotke, is for a five year licence, and the maximum annual volume of gas to be exported is only 10 million cubic feet. This is a local matter involving the gas from one well only, and gas which is not considered saleable other than in this particular export.
In its report the board indicates that it is prepared to issue export licences to the Canadian-Montana Pipe Line Company and to Gordon M. Plotke. The government concurs with the board's findings on these applications, and accordingly will authorize the issue of the licences on the terms set forth in the report.



AGRICULTURE


Hon. D. S. Harkness (Minisler of Agriculture):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to announce that the agricultural stabilization board has been authorized to continue to support the price of soya beans produced in Ontario for the year 1960 at $2 per bushel for Canada No. 2 grade or better, which is the same support price as last year. The prescribed price for 1960 is 91 per cent of the 10 year average as compared with 87 per cent for 1959. The final figures for the 1959 crop are not yet available, but it is estimated that the deficiency payments which will be made to the producers will total approximately $1 million.


Hon. Paul Marlin (Essex East):: Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister for making this announcement. I have only one comment to make, and that is that the price support announced for this year is the same as for last year, and not as high as it was in the year immediately following the last general election. The support price announced today is one that will not fully satisfy the requests made of the government by the soya bean growers.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Prime Minister a question arising out of the suggestion made to the Minister of Finance when consideration was being given to the resolution preceding the introduction of amendments to the Civil Service Act. My question is whether the Prime Minister has now been able to give consideration to this suggestion and whether he does not agree that it would be wise, in view of the time element, to postpone further consideration of this matter until next session, when in the early days of the session it can be submitted to a committee where evidence can be taken?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, in so far as the time element is concerned, I do not think it really enters into the equation at all. I think there would be sufficient time between now and the end of the session to give full consideration to this very important piece of legislation. However, suggestions have been made both by civil service organizations and by individuals that because of the fact that some 40 years have passed since the Civil
Inquiries of the Ministry Service Act came into effect, and these amendments are made consequent on the experience of that lengthy period of time, the very fullest consideration should be given to the various sections of this rather lengthy bill.
In the circumstances, if it meets with the aDproval of the house, I can see no objection whatever to acceding to the suggestion made, namely that the bill remain on the order paper. It can be introduced again at the next session, and a committee set up at that time for the purpose of going thoroughly into this question, to the end that when this act is brought up to date it will be generally acceptable to all and in accordance with the traditions of the civil service so that the civil service of Canada may continue to occupy the pre-eminent position that it now occupies among civil service organizations throughout the world.


Hazen Robert Argue: Mr. Speaker, I might just say a word. I think this is a wise course to follow with this very voluminous bill. Civil service associations themselves are desirous of making representations. We think if it were laid over until next session the final legislation would likely be much better from the standpoint of the civil servants of the country than if it were rushed through during the dying days of this session.


John George Diefenbaker: For the sake of clarity, Mr. Speaker, there is something I should like to find out. I am not permitted, of course, to direct a question to the Leader of the Opposition.


Lester Bowles Pearson: You will before long.


John George Diefenbaker: I hope the day never comes when I have to cross-examine my hon. friend.
The question I wanted to have cleared up was simply this. The hon. member for Assiniboia (Mr. Argue) said that he would be agreeable to the course suggested, namely that the civil service bill be left on the order paper and be brought forward again at the next session. I said that if the house was in agreement, that course would be followed. Possibly the Leader of the Opposition will let the house know what his attitude is.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, I am very happy to answer the question asked by the hon. member for Prince Albert. The course which he suggested with regard to this bill, for reasons among others with which he himself has put forward, is quite agreeable to us on this side.

Inquiries of the Ministry AGRICULTURE



DEFICIENCY PAYMENTS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hazen Robert Argue: I should like to address a question to the Prime Minister or the Minister of Agriculture. Can the Prime Minister or the Minister of Agriculture inform the house whether the date has now been set for a meeting between the government and the liaison committee of the western farm organizations to discuss deficiency payments, or the government's alternative to that program?


Douglas Scott Harkness: No, Mr. Speaker, the date has not yet been set.


Hazen Robert Argue: Can the minister say whether a date will be set before the end of the session?


Douglas Scott Harkness: Well, I do not think I have anything further to add at the present time. The date has not yet been set, and I am not in a position to say what date will be set.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Does the minister still take the view that before he will arrange to see this delegation the farmers of western Canada must place an alternative proposal in writing before the government?


Douglas Scott Harkness: I am not sure that I understand exactly what the hon. member means by this question.


Paul Joseph James Martin: My question was, before setting a date to meet this delegation does the government still take the position that the farmers of western Canada must place before the government in writing an alternative proposal, as the Minister of Agriculture suggested when his estimates were under discussion in this house?


Douglas Scott Harkness: Mr. Speaker, this has been one of the causes of delay. We asked the western farm organizations to make a definite proposal in writing, but instead they sent a brief which, as I indicated before, reiterated three of the proposals they had made when they attended here in numbers somewhat over a year ago. They also made some reference to acreage payments. Subsequent to that time we have had representations from some of the organizations who are members of the liaison committee indicating that they would like to discuss acreage payments.


Hazen Robert Argue: What was the government's reply to that request?


Mr. Speaker:: Order.


Hazen Robert Argue: Mr. Speaker, can the Minister of Agriculture tell the house what reply he gave to those farm organizations which requested a meeting on the basis of the proposition that acreage payments should be paid?


Douglas Scott Harkness: Mr. Speaker, I told those people that we would certainly consider that matter very seriously, and that we would consider it even more seriously if all these ten western farm organizations made the same request.



ROYAL CANADIAN MOUNTED POLICE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. F. Browne (Vancouver-Kingsway):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Justice. Can the minister inform the house whether it has now been decided to change the Royal Canadian Mounted Police marriage regulations?


Hon. E. D. Fulton (Minister of Justice):: Yes, Mr. Speaker. The commissioner has announced this morning that there has been a change in the long-standing marriage regulations. Under the new regulations a member of the force may be permitted to marry if he is at least 21 years of age and has served in the force in a satisfactory manner for two years. Formerly the regulations required that a member serve satisfactorily for five years before marriage, with one or two exceptions.
The original intent of the rather stringent regulations was to ensure maximum mobility in the service by having at all times a 50 per cent strength of single men. This arrangement is no longer considered necessary and, in fact, the married strength of the force now exceeds this figure. The commissioner is of the opinion that the change in regulations will be welcomed by many young men already in the force, and will also remove an obstacle to recruiting those young men otherwise suitable who regarded the marriage regulations with disfavour. I concur in that opinion.



TRANSPORT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Minister of Finance whether, in view of the constitutional jurisdiction of this parliament over navigation and shipping, he does not think it would be reasonable for the

federal government to assume the full cost of the investigation into the Chignecto canal.


Hon. Donald M. Fleming (Minister of Finance):: My colleague the Minister of
Public Works made an announcement on this subject the other day which I believe has met with the widest satisfaction, not only in the important area of Canada that is principally concerned but in this house as well.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Does the minister not think there would be even wider satisfaction if the taxpayers of New Brunswick were relieved of this charge, which is really a federal responsibility.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member's question has some interesting timing features to it.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Answer the question.


Donald Methuen Fleming: It accords well with the proper interest shown now after 22 years of neglect of this subject under the former regime.



NATIONAL PARKS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. W. H. Payne (Coast-Capilano):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources. Has the minister heard of the recent statement of the premier of British Columbia to the effect that he is now prepared to turn over the magnificent alpine area of Garibaldi park to the federal government as a national park, upon condition that the development program will commit the federal government to have the park in shape and condition to service the requirements of the Olympic games in 1968?


Hon. Alvin Hamilton (Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources):: No,
Mr. Speaker, I have not seen that report. I would imagine that if the premier of British Columbia is serious about the matter he will be writing me, because the federal government have already written to the province of British Columbia saying that we would consider taking over this area as a national park if it is granted to us on the usual conditions.



HOUSING


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. R. Taylor (Vancouver-Burrard):: Mr. Speaker, can the Minister of Public Works
79951-0-338
Inquiries of the Ministry report on the progress being made with respect to the urgent problem of slum clearance on the south side of Burrard inlet in Vancouver?


Hon. D. J. Walker (Minister of Public Works):: Mr. Speaker, in reply to the hon. member may I say that an order in council was passed yesterday relating to a federal contribution of one-half of the cost of acquiring and clearing three redevelopment sites in the blighted area in the east end of downtown Vancouver, and the redevelopment area on the south side of False creek. The total estimated cost of acquisition and clearance is $5,243,417, and the gross federal contribution is therefore estimated to be approximately $2,621,709.
The area when acquired and cleared will be sold or leased for residential and industrial development. It is proposed to construct two federal-provincial subsidized rental housing projects consisting of approximately 389 units on land thus located. These housing units will be used to rehouse displaced persons from the two areas and other families of low income. The estimated cost of the rental housing project is approximately $4 million, of which the federal government's share is 75 per cent or $3 million.



ST. JOHN'S EAST LAND ASSEMBLY PROJECT   INQUIRY AS TO PROGRESS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. C. W. Carter (Burin-Burgeo):: May I
ask a supplementary question. Can the minister inform the house what progress is being made with the land development project at St. John's?
Hon. D. J. Walker (Minister of Public
Works): We are getting along nicely with the investigation, and in due course a report will be made to my hon. friend or to the house.


An hon. Member:: In how many years?



COMBINES INVESTIGATION ACT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Frank Howard (Skeena):: I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Justice. I apologize for not having sent him notice of it, but I am sure he has immediate knowledge of this matter. Can the minister indicate whether the cabinet is considering taking action under section 29 of the Combines Investigation Act to lower or eliminate the tariffs on fine papers in this country?
5360	HOUSE OF
Inquiries of the Ministry


Edmund Davie Fulton: Mr. Speaker, I have noticed some comments in the press this morning on this general subject. One of them at least attributed certain information or statements to "informed sources". I have been considering the matter since, accordingly, and have come to the conclusion after consultation also that, as in the case of an inquiry under the Combines Investigation Act, it is not considered appropriate to confirm or to deny reports on inquiries in specific cases. Therefore in this case it will not be appropriate to confirm or to deny the report of consideration of section 29 under the Combines Investigation Act with respect to tariffs.
The reason for that rule is that it is not considered proper to make such statements which might prejudice the public mind against individuals. The policy therefore has been followed of never confirming or denying such reports. I therefore have no comment to make on the report.


Lionel Chevrier: I wish to ask a supplementary question of the Minister of Justice. Is it a fact that some time ago he notified a number of these companies to show cause why the government should not take the action that has been suggested under section 29 of the Combines Investigation Act?


Edmund Davie Fulton: I think the former answer I gave covers the situation here, namely that it would not be appropriate to comment on matters of this kind until some conclusion has been reached.



POST OFFICE DEPARTMENT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Azellus Denis (St. Denis):: I wish to direct a question to the Postmaster General. Is the minister in a position to make a report on the investigation he must have ordered following the fire which was set to a mail box situated close to the committee room of Mr. Rene Levesque, the first Rene Levesque on the voting ballot, then an official Liberal candidate and now a new member of the new legislature in Quebec?


Hon. W. M. Hamilton (Postmaster General):: Beyond the fact that we put out the fire, Mr. Speaker, I have nothing to say at this point.



CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John Whitney Pickersgill: I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration. May I


ask whether the hon. lady's private secretary is on loan to the leader of the opposition in the house of assembly in Newfoundland?


Hon. Ellen L. Fairclough (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration):: I believe the person to whom my hon. friend refers is on a visit to Newfoundland, and that he is leaving me on July 1.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Can the hon. lady say whether he is still receiving a salary from the treasury of Canada?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I believe he is on his
holidays at the present time.



USE OF CANOE BY MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. R. H. Small (Danforth):: Mr. Speaker, will the Minister of Public Works be good enough to tell the house why he paddles a red painted canoe?


David James Walker: Would orange be more suitable to the hon. member; or would he settle if I just painted it blue?


Robert Hardy Small: Why not try both?


Mr. J. R. Garland (Nipissing):: I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Public Works. While he is out canoeing on the Rideau river I wonder whether he fully realizes that he is up the creek on housing?


David James Walker: Mr. Speaker, I would sooner be going up the creek than be in the flood waters of Nipissing.



HISTORIC SITES AND MONUMENTS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Robert Muir (Cape Breton North and Victoria):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister without Portfolio from Newfoundland. Is he aware that the Cape Breton historical society are this afternoon unveiling a bust to the memory of John Cabot in northern Cape Breton, to mark where Cabot first landed on the North American continent?


William Joseph Browne: Mr. Speaker, the first place where he landed on the mainland might have been on Cape Breton. The first place where he really landed was at St. John's.


John Whitney Pickersgill: May I ask the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources whether, in

an effort to restore unity to his own side of the house, he would consider suggesting to the historic sites and monument board that a monument be erected at cape Bonavista which would record the true fact of the discovery of Canada, namely that John Cabot, the first European to see Canada, first saw it at cape Bonavista?


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: In the wisdom of past years it was decided that the minister should have an historic sites and monument board composed of leading historians across Canada to advise the minister in order to protect him from all sorts of suggestions like the one made by the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate.


Mr. McGrath:: Mr. Speaker-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I think we had better bring our explorations up to date and pass to orders of the day.



DOMINION-PROVINCIAL CONFERENCE REPORTED STATEMENT BY PREMIER OF ONTARIO ON COMING &quot;FIGHT&quot;

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Paul Joseph James Martin: May I ask
the Minister of Finance a question based on a statement made by Premier Frost yesterday when speaking of the federal-provincial fiscal conference scheduled for July. The premier said:
All I know is that I am going into a big fight down in Ottawa on fiscal matters.
My question is this. Since it takes two to make a fight, will the Minister of Finance comment on this statement?


Donald Methuen Fleming: If Mr. Frost made the statement referred to by the hon. member, Mr. Speaker, I am quite sure that he did not have in mind the thought that he would be entering any kind of contest or fight with the federal government. Therefore I have not the slightest idea whom he may have chosen as his adversary, but perhaps the hon. member for Essex East had better look out.


Paul Joseph James Martin: May I ask a supplementary question. That being the case, is it now a fact that Premier Frost may look forward to receiving the additional $100 million odd which he has been asking from the federal government?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I think the hon. member is trying to anticipate an event which will take place later this month.
79951-0-338J
24, 1960	5361
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I may be
permitted to ask a question which was frequently asked by the minister when he was over on this side. Could the minister provide us with the agenda for this conference?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, whenever the agenda has been agreed upon by all the governments concerned, and whenever they are agreeable that it be made public, there will be no hesitation at all in making it available to the hon. member or to it being brought before the house.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Could I ask a supplementary question. Will the minister include the federal government's proposals to the conference?


Donald Methuen Fleming: If the federal government's proposals were made part of the agenda, Mr. Speaker.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Flynn in the chair.
DEPARTMENT OF MINES AND TECHNICAL SURVEYS. Administration services-
Departmental administration-
187. Administration, operation and maintenance, $860,962.


The Chairman:: Department of Mines and Technical Surveys, item No. 187. This item will be found on page 40 of the blue book and the details on page 260.


Mr. Nielsen:: Mr. Chairman, at ten o'clock last night I was discussing the importance of the work of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys with regard to the exhaustion of our reserves of minerals. The rate of consumption of any mineral resource is subject to many factors. Under any system of free enterprise, mineral deposits are normally exploited only when the margin between costs of production and the price to the consumer will yield a profit to the operator. Obviously, therefore, any improvements in mining, milling or refining techniques that result in lower production costs or an increase in the percentage of the metal recovered will correspondingly increase the total of our commercially available resources. The more efficient we become in the utilization of low grade ores, the more satisfactory our supply position. The same results can also be obtained in the free market when the consumer is willing or able to pay increased prices.
The part that this department should have been playing in technological research is, I think, abundantly clear and has been for a long time. It is essential that this work
5362	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys now go ahead. No less important is the essential work required in the field of conservation. I find it most significant that in the cases of agriculture, forestry, fisheries and certain other fields of resources development, some progress has been made in the direction of conservation. All these are renewable resources. Yet in the case of minerals, which are not renewable, there has been practically no effort, except in time of war, to interfere with the free play of a market that is interested primarily in profits. This is an anomaly that cannot continue forever. So we have several reasons for being concerned about the mineral resource future of Canada.
Well, what should this department be doing now as well as for future generations? Our hopes for the future, in my view, should be directed first toward the discovery of new ore bodies. There is certainly ample scope in Canada for such activities today. The greatest hope for fresh supplies of ore depends upon the discovery of new ore bodies in those areas of Canada yet undeveloped. Here I cannot help but draw the attention of this committee to the vast areas of the north where such activities have a very wide scope.
The second step to be taken in our effort to meet the undoubted future demands which will be placed on our mineral resources and to forestal shortages at home is the improvement of our techniques of extraction and processing. New and more efficient methods of mining are constantly being sought. In addition, we must broaden the field of research in our metallurgical practices. The record of discovery in this field offers good evidence that further research will result in further refinements. In the future, as higher grades of ore are depleted, more attention must be given to the treatment of complex and low grade ore bodies by leaching or other chemical methods. Further study should also be given to the possibility of obtaining minerals from sea water.
Finally, in addition to the search for new ore bodies and the improvement of our processes of extraction and treatment, greater study must be given to the possibilities of conservation and substitution.
Now, Mr. Chairman, how is the department to meet the demands which are being placed upon it now and in the future should the course which I have advocated be implemented? The evidence before the committee on mines, forests and waters last year clearly indicated an extremely complicated general administration of the diversified activities of this department. There are many factors which contribute to this situation; the nature of the operations of the various branches of


the department; the large number of individual projects conducted under mobile and remote conditions; the operation of a fleet of ships and launches; the operation of a large number of fixed and rotary wing charter aircraft; the operation of a fleet of about 225 motor vehicles and railway speeders, tracked vehicles, dog teams, horses and the like; and large scientific laboratories in Ottawa. No wonder, then, that procurement, supply, maintenance and financing are difficult tasks, and it will-it must-get even more difficult as the volume of field operations increase and as they progressively move to more outlying areas of the country. The problem of logistics must become more acute.
The department must be allowed to relieve the scientific and technical staff of the administrative requirements associated with their work, and to the maximum degree possible. An accelerated effort toward this objective should be immediately undertaken by the provision of the necessary staff. It is abundantly clear that the growth of the functional operations of the department over many years has not been matched by a corresponding growth in administrative assistance.
The functional operations of the department are hampered by unduly restrictive policies of financial administration. The policy now requires treasury board approval to be given to a very considerable number of individual financial proposals. The department's job could be made much easier and more efficient by enlarging the authority of the minister to meet these flexible demands. As the department expands its activities generally an increased administrative activity will require staff additions if the department is to attain any degree of efficiency.
The most serious difficulty facing the department in the solution of its problems is the recruiting and retention of capable technical and scientific staff. No organization can maintain a high order of research productivity without a high percentage of creative personnel. An organization such as the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys is only as productive as the quality of its staff. To me it is simply amazing that the staff in the number existing in this department for many years has produced such a quality of work, which has allowed Canada to maintain at least a tenuous position in this field.
The department is recruiting and operating in a professional field where the competition for staff reaches its highest intensity. This competition comes from industry in both Canada and the United States, and more recently from the universities. Even junior staff is now being attracted to the secondary

schools. Competition for staff begins at the recruiting stage, where salary levels are slightly less than those of crown organizations such as the national research council and the defence research board and much less than in industry, through to the more senior and specialist grades, where salaries in the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys are much below those offered elsewhere, often to the extent of between $3,000 and $4,000. This situation hurts the organization now and affects the future operations of the department itself and consequently the future of the mineral industry and the future of Canada.
A proportion of highly capable young men must be recruited to assure the future efficiency of any research organization. There is no substitute for intelligence and ability in a research organization. What possibly presents a more serious situation is staff who have become national or international specialists in research areas, and who are attracted away when they are most productive by offers of salaries which are far beyond what the department can pay.
I understand that the purpose of the department is to encourage the mining industry in every way possible, and in keeping with this policy I do not feel that we should mind losing some of our staff to Canadian industry. In fact I think we would welcome and encourage a healthy interchange of staff with Canadian industry. What really hurts, however, is when we lose highly trained specialists to the United States. A specialist takes 10 to 15 years to reach his maximum usefulness, and this may represent $100,000 in training costs. The loss of these highly trained engineers and scientists presents a serious national problem. A high percentage of our specialists who leave go to the United States. It might be of interest to note here that the Financial Post of May 2, 1959 stated that 1,200 Canadian engineers settled in the United States during 1958.
If the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys is to maintain a staff capable of meeting the national demands, salaries must be raised to a competitive level. This is most important at the senior engineer and scientist level. I understand that in recent years the personnel establishments of the various divisions of the department have been fixed by yearly meetings between treasury board, the civil service commission and the department, and that for the 18 months following this meeting there is little elasticity for changing staff about to meet new demands or altering situations. This presents a most difficult problem, since extraordinary demands, which are being continually presented, follow no
24, 1960	5363
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys established pattern. The result is a measure of inefficiency and administration confusion. A department such as mines and technical surveys, which must meet unexpected demands, should have more flexibility in the recruitment and use of its staff. The rigid formula now applied is fraught with difficulties, and efficiency suffers.
These steps require to be taken now. They should have been taken many years ago. If we fail to act now, future generations of Canadians will have to bear the consequences of our blindness; and our responsibility for failing, with full knowledge of the facts, to take the necessary measures, will be heavy in their sight.


Mr. McQuillan:: One of the bright spots in the economy of British Columbia at present is the tremendous increase in interest and investment in metal mining. I was on the coast a few weeks ago and took the opportunity to drop into the British Columbia and Yukon chamber of mines office. While I was there it was obvious that it was a most active place. There were a number of people there from various parts of the United States and other parts of the world, and the manager of the bureau informed me that they had received make grants to such organizations as this, but ever before in their history. I know that to date it is not the policy of the department to make grants to such organizations as this, but I do think such an organization is worthy of a grant because it is doing a splendid job for the mining industry not only in British Columbia but in the Yukon and the Northwest Territories.
Interest in mining in British Columbia is general throughout the province, and is particularly apparent in the coastal region as the result of a recent supreme court decision. Development of new mining operations and increased production from existing operations can be anticipated, particularly with regard to crown-granted claims affected by that decision.
For years there has been a false idea that Vancouver island and the coastal area in general are areas where mineral deposits are small and uneconomic. This, of course, is not so. We have had several major producing mines on the coast. One of them is the mine at Britannia which has come to life again, and which I understand is rapidly expanding its production. The Granduc property near the head of Portland canal shows promise of being a major copper ore body, and there are a number of large ore bodies along the coast.
Shortly after I came down here I was in conversation with an official of the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources. I pointed out to him the promising
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Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys mineral potential of Vancouver island, particularly the northern area, and I referred to the desirability of encouraging the development of this potential under the roads to resources program. He disagreed with my view as to the resources there, and I asked him where he had got his information. He said he had got it from the department of mines. I think it is high time that the department of mines reassessed its estimate of the mineral potential of that area, because I think its assumptions are not based on sound or up to date information.
Just to show how wrong the department was, I am going to list some of the operating mines in the area as well as a number of known ore bodies awaiting development. On the southern end of Vancouver island we have Cowichan Copper, which was brought into production through the tenacity and perseverance of an old prospector and mining man in British Columbia named Ozzie McDonald. Great credit is due to him for bringing this mine into production, because many people had scorned its chance of ever becoming a success. Mount Washington Copper is another ore body which is being developed by the Noranda company, and it also has great possibilities. Further north, near Nimpkish lake, there is an important iron-producing property under development and large shipments are being made at the present time. There is also Quatsino Copper at Port McNeill, which is also concerned with the production of iron ore. There is a well known property near the northern end of the island called Coast Copper in which Consolidated Mining and Smelting holds a substantial interest. I believe they are anticipating a large expenditure there commencing almost immediately.
On the west coast there are innumerable mining properties. Many of the properties may not be very large, but with the network of roads that have been developed by the logging companies these mines could be economic producers and successful operations through the hooking up of these roads. The grouping of these ore deposits would provide a very substantial tonnage. We should benefit from the mistakes of the past and recall the experience in the United States. People did not think roads would be developed in that country. There were mines developed, one producing perhaps 500,000 tons in one area and another producing 500,000 tons in another area. In the old days these were considered uneconomic, but with the development of roads it was possible to take full advantage of such ore deposits. In many instances a very small mileage would be required to hook up existing roads and thus provide a very valuable transportation system.


I do not think the day is too far distant -indeed, I feel it is very close-when we are going to see once again a smelter on the coast particularly for the copper ores. In the Portland canal area a famous mine has come to life again. It is now called the Silbak-Premier; it used to be known as the old Premier mine. A tremendous amount of wealth was taken from this mine, which was later almost abandoned and thought to be worked out. I have an adventuresome brother who went in there last year, took a lease on the property and brought the property to life again. It has proved to be one of the outstanding mining rediscoveries in the country.
There is a great deal of activity in the development of iron ore, all of which is shipped to Japan. Ore shipments amount to approximately 1,000 tons a day from such mines as Texada Iron Mines, Silver Standard and others. Iron ore shipments are going from the west coast of the island, and substantial shipments will be going from the Queen Charlotte islands. By the end of this year the coastal area will be producing about
5,000	tons of iron ore per day. This, of course, is being exported to Japan. As well, there will be substantial shipments of copper and copper-nickel concentrates from coastal and interior mines.
While I can understand the British Columbia government's desire to conserve iron ore for ultimate processing in a long hoped-for steel mill, I think they have been seriously misguided in their efforts to promote the establishment of such a mill. They have discouraged the discovery and development of iron ore property. They now reserve for themselves in the coastal area 50 per cent of the iron content of any ore body, which pretty well eliminates any interest in prospecting in that area. The claims being developed and the properties being worked are largely the old crown grant claims. The difficulty to date in effecting the establishment of a steel mill on the coast has been the insufficient tonnage of known iron ore reserves.
I maintain that the only way they are going to increase these reserves is by giving more incentive to the prospecting and development of iron ore properties. I believe I can truthfully say that there is a much greater known reserve of iron ore on the coast of British Columbia than there was before a ton of it was shipped to Japan; because as these properties are developed-and most of them have been known for many years-they have found substantially greater ore reserves than the mining engineers and geologists anticipated. Mining legislation and taxation that discourages the prospecting for and proving

up of iron ore deposits will delay indefinitely the possibility of discovering the necessary tonnage. No one is going to waste time and money prospecting for new deposits of any minerals on the coast when the provincial government reserves to itself 50 per cent of the iron content of all ore.
My belief, and I think it is sound, is that investors in the highly speculative mining industry are entitled to every possible consideration in regard to taxation, depreciation allowances and government technical services. I know there exists in the minds of some a great fear that someone might make a little money out of a mine and not pay what they consider to be sufficient taxation. I would rather see an over-all development of mining even if we had to permit undue tax benefits to very large and successful operations, because if we are going to tax them the tax

ation seems to extend down to the little fellow and discourages the whole mining industry. It is my conviction that if neither government got a cent in direct taxation the employment in an active, healthy mining industry would pay dividends that would benefit the whole country.
In a large section of Vancouver island there is a situation that is a serious discouragement to the discovery and development of mines. About 1885 the provincial government of the day, in order to promote the construction of what is known as the E. & N. railway from Victoria to Courtenay on Vancouver island, made a grant including the lands, forests and minerals of one of the richest areas of the island. This grant went northward to the 50th parallel near Campbell River, and took in a strip approximately 20 miles wide extending from the south tip of the island.
At the time the grant was made my grandfather, who had then been settled in Comox valley for approximately 25 years, wrote a letter to his cousin in England stating as follows:
A railroad is being built between Victoria and Nanaimo-
At that time the terminus was intended to be Nanaimo. I continue:
-the company getting a strip of land about 20 miles back from the coast up as far as the Euclatawville.
For the information of hon. members who are not familiar with that part of the country the old Indian name applied to Seymour narrows was Euclatawville. I continue:
Did anyone ever hear of a more scandalous bargain? The M.P.P.'s should be strung up. Victoria and the neighbourhood is all those potheads care for.
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
I am sure there are many throughout the area who still feel the same about this as my grandfather did in those long-ago days. This grant ultimately passed into the hands of the Canadian Pacific Railway, which still holds it, and their policies of administration are a serious handicap to mining development. They have no set royalty on mineral discoveries and deal with each deposit on a different basis. They not only want all that the traffic will bear in royalty but considerably more, and demand royalty on the gross- not on the net-returns to the investing mining company. Consequently companies are loath to make investments in an area where they run the risk of not only losing their own investment but of paying an exorbitant royalty to the Canadian Pacific Railway on the gross values produced.
On this score I do not think the officials of the Canadian Pacific Railway are aware of the effect their policy is having in that area, because it would be to their own advantage in many other ways to have a healthy mining development in the E. & N. railway belt. I know myself of many properties that nobody will bother to stake, nobody will bother to spend any money on, simply because of the present policy of the Canadian Pacific Railway. I hope the minister will take this matter up immediately with the president of the Canadian Pacific Railway and endeavour to relieve this area of mineral development from the strangling policies of the company.
This so-called E. & N. belt is a perfect example of the dangers of giving large grants of resources to individual companies without any stipulation for their development. I hope the experience of 75 years will prove a useful lesson to all provincial governments, and to the federal government as well.


Chesley William Carter: There are three points that I should like to put briefly before the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys. In the first place, I should like to pay tribute to the splendid work which the hydrographic survey branch of his department has done in charting the coastal waters of my province.
As was pointed out earlier today, Newfoundland was discovered 463 years ago, and up to a year ago there was still part of our coastal waters not completely charted. The first charting of our waters was carried out by the British admiralty under the direction of the famous Captain Cook. With the few facilities that he had at his disposal at that time it is amazing how accurate his calculations were, but still it is essential that this work be pushed ahead, and we are grateful for the way in which the minister and this branch of his department are doing that job.
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Two years ago, I think, there was some question as to who was in command of the survey ships when they were actually doing the survey work. There was some question whether the captain had actual command or whether the hydrographer had full command. I hope the minister will be able to tell us that this question has now been fully clarified so that no further confusion on this point can take place in the future.
The second point is one that I brought to the minister last year, and I am not going to repeat what I said then but simply draw to his attention the fact that as far as I have been able to find out nothing has been done with respect to the prevailing rate system of pay. I know the minister does not have full control over this, that it ties in with the Minister of Labour, and that there are other departments such as the Department of Transport, the Department of Fisheries and also the Department of National Revenue which have this problem. I would ask the minister to get together with his other colleagues on this matter and see whether something cannot be done about it, because I do not think it is good for morale to have men working side by side in a boat, or two little boats working side by side doing the same work exactly, yet with the men getting different rates of pay. As an employer I believe the federal government should follow the principle of equal pay for equal work.
The third point I wish to bring to the minister's attention has to do with the situation at the fluorspar mines at St. Lawrence. Last year it was discovered that those mines were subject to radiation hazards. I understood that some arrangement was to be worked out with the minister's department, or some mechanism would be installed, whereby the miners themselves would be able to monitor the amount of radiation so they would have a check against the monitoring done by the operators. I understood this was to be done by the miners themselves. Can the minister bring me up to date as to what progress has been made in that regard?


Mr. Smith (Calgary South):: Mr. Chairman, I should like to say just a word at this time with respect to two sections of the important Department of Mines and Technical Surveys. As others have done, I should like to congratulate the minister and in particular the divisional heads of the geological survey on the work they have carried out in the past year. I hope that what I say on this point will provide some encouragement to them to do more than they have done in the past.
Perhaps I might make reference, sir, to one important problem. A decision will have to be made eventually with respect to the


greatest known resource of oil in the world. I refer, of course, to the Athabasca tar sands. The committee is fully aware, of course, that a study has been made as to the feasibility of developing the tar sands by using a nuclear instrument. We are also familiar with the fact that the government of the province of Alberta, through the Alberta petroleum and natural gas conservation board, has undertaken and is continuing a study to determine other methods by which the sand can be separated from the oil and thus permit the crude oil to flow freely. I impress this on the minister, and perhaps he will comment on it.
We realize, of course, the international implications, and that it is quite obvious that we are not going to have a nuclear test until several other factors have been determined. First of all, of course, there is the disarmament conference which, among other things, involves the feasibility of banning any nuclear tests whatsoever. In my opinion this need not defer any studies or any work which should be undertaken eventually in the hope that when we resolve the international aspects of this problem we can then move ahead to determine how best we may be able to utilize this vast volume of oil.
I am not placing any particular urgency on it, because it is well known to the committee that in the province of Alberta we are already having some difficulty in marketing the oil we have at the present time. I do, nevertheless, impress on the minister and his department that we offer the utmost cooperation to the provincial officials and any persons in the industry who wish to undertake studies or research into either nuclear tests or any other separation process. We should make it abundantly clear in this committee that we shall do nothing to discourage the eventual development of those resources. I accept all the arguments on the importance of maintaining the health of our people, but having done this I suggest that we give every possible encouragement, as I have said, and I hope the minister will make some comment on what has happened thus far.
I would also hope that in the geological survey division the government will continue the practice of the last two years of putting as many young graduate geologists to work as they possibly can, because they will get no better experience anywhere in the field of geology. In addition, I know the minister recognizes that there are areas to which we have given perhaps too little attention, and what is perhaps even more important is that these young men could be very usefully employed in conducting investigations in these areas. I acknowledge the fact that the minister

has given some leadership in the past and has started a very active campaign in this respect, but I suggest that we could still improve on it by making use of added numbers of these people for the two reasons I have mentioned.
Finally, Mr. Chairman, 1 would ask the minister to examine the possibility of developing more research facilities than he now has in the department. He may shudder to think he would have to assume any further responsibilities in his department, but I feel that in relation to our resources we have not developed our research facilities to the fullest extent. For example, we should perhaps have a look at the possibility of using the byproducts of petroleum products as a rocket propellant. We might look at the possibility of upgrading various ores. There are a number of aspects that could be examined. I mention this because it would undoubtedly encourage further secondary industry and keep the basic product within Canada to a greater degree. It would follow, of course, that a greater number of Canadians would be employed if this should take place.
In this respect I have previously mentioned the problem of government in relation to resources. It does seem to me that the department now under consideration might take on some of the responsibilities which have been allocated to two other departments of government. If we look closely at the resources of Canada we find that jurisdiction with respect to them is roughly divided among three different departments of the government. In order to avoid the duplication that obviously must follow, and in order to centralize activity with respect to the promotion and development of our resources in so far as they are a federal responsibility, I suggest that the minister might take the lead in discussing with his colleagues the advantages of placing under his administration those responsibilities which are currently shared by two of his colleagues. Perhaps the most notable, of course, are those which come under the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources. I am not suggesting that these same responsibilities might not come under the minister of that department, but I do think a centralization of the effort in this field in relation to all mineral products, not just petroleum products, under one department and one divisional head would be most beneficial.
May I conclude as I did in commencing my remarks by congratulating the minister and his officials on running what I consider, having had close association with it, a most efficient department, and I hope he will take these suggestions under advisement.
79951-0-339
24, 1960	5367
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys (Translation):


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, I carefully read the remarks made yesterday evening by the hon. member for Laurier (Mr. Che-vrier) with regard to the boundary between the provinces of Quebec and Ontario, and I should like to ask the minister a question. Now that we have a wiser and more reasonable government in Quebec, can the minister offer his good offices for the final delimitation of the boundary between the provinces of Quebec and Newfoundland?
(Text):


Mr. McCleave:: Mr. Chairman, I am not entering the debate at this time to engage in "cabotage" with regard to the claims of Newfoundland and Cape Breton to discovery by John Cabot. I should like to make two comments on the estimates presented to us by the minister.
I listened with great interest to the remarks of the hon. member for Burin-Burgeo with reference to the dual control over the hydrographic survey ships of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys. I know he had in mind the grounding of the Baffin off the Nova Scotia coast some years ago, and I think it would be helpful if, before the end of the debate on these estimates, the minister could make a statement that would establish that control of the ship at all times does in fact remain in the hands of the mariner rather than in the hands of the master scientist. In the Baffin incident, as perhaps in others too, it was very obvious that what happened was like a car going down the highway and a back-seat driver suddenly seizing control of the vehicle, with disastrous results.
My other reference is to the oceanographic institute on the shore of Bedford basin in the constituency of Halifax. I welcome the speed with which the minister 'has made progress at this very fine plant. A million dollar plus contract for jetty work will shortly get under way. When the institute is completed, which I gather from the speed with which the minister and the department are proceeding will be well before the deadline, there will be employment for several hundred scientists, and the institute will fulfil an obvious need. Perhaps of most satisfaction to a maritimer is the fact that this is a very concrete and substantial indication that the government is following a decentralizing policy and moving some of its very large projects from the central part of Canada. On behalf of all maritimers or Atlanticans I thank you sincerely, Mr. Minister.


Mr. Woolliams:: Mr. Chairman, I hope the minister will not think I am a little too pessimistic in some of the things I feel I must say with reference to the coal industry
5368	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys in the province of Alberta. In 1946 there were 2,116 men employed in the coal industry in the Drumheller area, and by 1958 the number had dropped to 695. At one time in that area there were 137 mines, but today the number has been reduced to approximately 8 which operate only part of the year.
As I have said on previous occasions, in order to understand the problem one must realize that the type of coal mined in the Drumheller area is a sub-bituminous or soft coal which is used particularly for domestic fuel. Some confusion has developed with reference to imports of coal from the United States, in that it has been suggested by some critics that the policy of the present government-this was also suggested to the former government-should include some provision for a quota or the use of some other method to prevent the import of coal from the United States. The answer to these critics is that the type of coal imported from the United States is entirely different from that mined in the Drumheller area.
I might draw another analogy with respect to coal that is mined at Canmore, which is located in another part of my constituency of Bow River. Canmore, as many people know, is situated in the Rocky mountains. They produce a high anthracite or coking coal. The Canmore coal has benefited considerably by this particular government's trade policy with Japan. I believe that at the present time a deal is pending for the sale of 674,000 tons of coking coal from Alberta, and that most of it will come from the Canmore area. The workers in the Canmore area at one time suffered just as the workers are suffering today in Drumheller. But now with the new markets in Japan they are not only working during the winter season but are also working during the summer season. The type of coal that is mined in Canmore, in the maritimes and in the Crowsnest pass-


The Deputy Chairman:: Order. I wonder whether the hon. member might perhaps better reserve his remarks until we reach item 214, which is the dominion coal board, and when perhaps the minister's advisers are here at that time.


Eldon Mattison Woolliams: I considered doing that, Mr. Chairman.


Charles Edward Rea: If the hon. member wishes to speak now, of course he may do so. It is just a suggestion from the Chair.


Eldon Mattison Woolliams: I was wondering whether the Chair would bear with me in this regard. There may be a chance that I will be absent on Monday, and I wanted to make a few


remarks in relation to this industry. I appreciate the fact that there is in the estimates a particular item so far as the coal board is concerned. If I may be permitted to do so, Mr. Chairman, I should like to continue.
Coming back, then, to the problem in Drumheller itself, may I say that there are approximately 600 men employed in the coal industry today in the Drumheller area, when it is operating. However, as I was saying, the soft coal is used only for domestic fuel, and the mines are in serious competition with natural gas and other fuels that have been competing with them in reference to this domestic market in the urban centres and the fuel now used by the farmers. The coal miners in that area, which is the area of Drumheller which takes in the towns of East Coulee, Wayne, Nacmine and others, work approximately only from December to March. The rest of the year they are unemployed and on unemployment insurance, or must seek employment in other fields of industry.
At the present time the problem is this, as many say. Why are these men not moved, or why do they not seek other types of employment? The situation, and it has been stated by other members in this house who represent coal mining areas, is briefly this. As to the coal miners themselves, all their investment is in their homes in these areas; and when they leave them they leave behind all their life savings. The situation is such that the coal employees themselves wish to remain in those areas even on short employment, because they do not want to give up their homes and their small savings.
I want to make myself doubly clear on two more points. One is that the coal mined in the Drumheller area is sub-bituminous coal, soft coal which is used as domestic fuel. There may be some opportunity for the use of this type of coal in reference to other products, but at the present time this area is depressed and employment in this area has been going down for the last four of five years. In fact ever since the war ended and their market for coal for use as fuel ended, there has been a considerable amount of unemployment in this area.
This reference may seem somewhat out of place, but we had the Springhill tragedy as a result of which certain steps were taken by the government. This is the point I want to make. I dealt with this problem in the budget debate and I want to be brief. Here we have an area with surplus labour because of the coal problem. Here we have an area with a plentiful water supply, with good agricultural land surrounding it. In fact in the Munson area we have some of the finest agricultural land in the world. It is the centre of the judicial districts in the province

of Alberta. It has good hard-top roads leading to the city of Drumheller from all leading cities, towns and villages, and Drumheller is situated on the main C.N.R. line.
It seems to me that when we have this surplus pool of labour as a result of the depressed coal mining industry, this would be an excellent site-and this is the point I am making-for the building of a penitentiary in the province of Alberta. We are the only province in the whole of Canada that does not have one of those federal institutions. In this way these people, numbering 500 or 600, or at least some of them would be able to find employment elsewhere than in the coal mines until some other industry develops in the area to use the coal and give them employment.
I therefore say today that I trust the minister, when this matter is considered by the government, will remember that this is one of the most depressed coal mining areas in the whole country; and when they are considering a federal institution for western Canada will decide that this is the spot at which it should be built.


Lionel Chevrier: I know that the committee is anxious to get on with these estimates and I shall not delay them unduly, but there is a matter to which I should like to refer. It has been up for consideration previously, and for that reason I believe I can abbreviate my remarks substantially. My purpose in raising it again is that the problem has not been solved. Neither of the ministers involved has made any answer, and before the estimates of this department are completed I think we should get a reply to some of the complaints and charges, in fact, that were made from this side of the chamber concerning a contract awarded by the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys to Autair Helicopter Service Limited.
Briefly the situation is this. Although this company was operating in the province of Quebec without a licence, and although it has obtained contracts from various departments in the province of Quebec without a licence, it made application to the air transport board to be relieved of certain of its restrictions in order to operate the Sikorsky S-55 on the polar shelf. That application was refused or turned down by the air transport board for a number of reasons.
I shall not go into these at all, but refer to them in a general way. The air transport board, which is charged under the Aeronautics Act with the responsibility of granting or not granting licences of this character, decided in its wisdom to turn them down, and one of the reasons given was that the company refused to file a statement of financial responsibility. While this did not 79951-0-339|
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys appear in the evidence but transpired afterwards, there were other clear reasons why the air transport board refused to grant this company a licence. Another was that the insurance on the helicopters of this company had been cancelled on two occasions. A third was that in 1959, I believe, they had six accidents and in 1960 three or four, involving in several cases the complete-I have forgotten the insurance expression, but it means the complete disappearance.


An hon. Member:: Write-off.


Lionel Chevrier: Yes, write-off; I thank the hon. member. It resulted in complete writeoff for the helicopters involved, and that brought about the cancellation of the insurance. The company then insured with another United States corporation with which I am informed the air transport board was not very happy.
Be that as it may, the application to the air transport board was turned down emphatically. I have here, and I have already put on record, the decision of the board refusing to grant the application. Thereafter an appeal was made to the minister, and the minister overruled the air transport board on a matter of a judicial nature. I have already complained that the minister should not have done that, and I have put on record why that was the case.
I can only direct my attention to the matter at this time in so far as the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys is concerned, because the other matters are under the jurisdiction of the Department of Transport. There was a contract for a substantial amount awarded for helicopter services on the polar shelf. That contract was awarded to Autair without tender, according to the words of the minister himself as contained in Hansard, when he replied to my statements. What happened on that occasion was that prices were required of certain helicopter companies, four or five, I have forgotten which; and although one of the aircraft companies, Pacific Helicopter I think, did operate S-55's they were eliminated and Autair, which had never operated an S-55 Sikorsky helicopter before, were allowed to put in a price.
From the information I have, which is reliable information, their price was not the lowest, as is indicated in the return by the minister. It is true that it was the lowest on 100 hour operation in the area, but as the committee knows helicopters are not operated for that length of time. On the minimum operation and on the operation of 50 hours they were not the lowest, or their price was the same as that of several other helicopter companies.
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When I made these complaints the minister said that the matter was not his responsibility; that was not his business to look into the antecedents of the company; that that was the responsibility of the Minister of Transport, and I say to him with respect that that is not correct. Even though the Minister of Transport by overruling the air transport board had authorized this company to operate, it was none the less the responsibility of the minister or his officers to look into the financial responsibility of Autair Helicopters and their record for air safety because his officers were being transported in dangerous areas and these men should have the best protection possible.
The next point was that the minister stated that this company had had experience on the D.E.W. line. I was perhaps in error on one occasion in stating what the minister had said, but so that I will not make that error again, what the minister said was this: (Translation):
The pilots of Autair Helicopter Services Limited acquired experience on the D.E.W. line, and I can assure you, Mr. Speaker, there is not much difference between the D.E.W. line and the areas where those aircraft will fly.
(Text):
In other words, the minister stated that this company's pilots had had experience on the D.E.W. line. Well, I have in my possession evidence which indicates that when the Autair pilots left to perform that task on the polar shelf they had had no experience whatsoever in that kind of operation. One pilot had had only 30 days' experience in the Knob Lake area, and the other two had had no such experience whatsoever. However, the main point is that this company should not have been allowed to obtain the contract without tender.
I am not going to pursue this matter unduly. I think, and I repeat, that there should be an investigation into this matter by the Minister of Transport and the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys, because the story which is now going around-and it is well founded -is that an attempt is being made by certain companies to take over Autair Helicopters to give an air of respectability to it, because up to the time it got the contract, as well as before that, there was no air of respectability whatsoever about it. It looks as if this whole operation had a very serious political tinge.
Mr. Chairman, I ask the minister to investigate this contract. That is the least he can do. If there was no serious charge, then I would have no complaint if the answer were no. But it is a serious charge. Here is a responsible body under the Aeronautics Act which turns down the Autair application, yet the application is granted none the less. A contract is awarded without tenders being


called for, and as I say these people had had no experience whatsoever in the important polar shelf area where they were to work.
In view of the fact that on a previous occasion no reply was made by either the Minister of Transport or the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys, I hope there will be a reply on this occasion. I hope the minister, knowing him as I do, will want to conduct an investigation to satisfy himself that the charges which I have made seriously on my responsibility as a member of parliament are investigated, so there will not be the slightest tinge so far as he and his officials are concerned.
In closing, Mr. Chairman, I plead with the minister to consult with his colleague so that an investigation into the operations of Autair Helicopters be instigated without delay.


Mr. MacEwan:: Mr. Chairman, I have a few remarks to make about hydrographic services. As the minister well knows, two of the hydrographic ships, C.G.S. Acadia and C.G.S. Cartier are based at the port of Pictou. Last July the waterfront of this port was almost completely wiped out by a very serious fire. As a result the hydrographic services set up there were destroyed as well as most of the piers and wharves in the area. Thanks to the co-operation of the Department of Public Works work is going ahead in the restoration of the waterfront.
Thanks to the minister the decision was made last year that the two boats I have referred to should return to Pictou for the winter as usual, and to help in this the Department of Public Works erected a temporary berth for these ships. I would like to point out, although this fact is known to the minister, that these two ships although not large are both important to this town, as are also the hydrographic services, whose members have their homes in Pictou, where there is ample housing for them. It is also important to this town in that the supplies for the ships are obtained there, which gives the local merchants an opportunity to supply them.
Another matter is that the local shipyard, Ferguson Industries, Ltd. is given an opportunity to do the work on the ships during the winter, and this provides employment for the area. With regard to work on the smaller launches and other vessels, some of it is done at Stright and MacKay Limited, which is also in Pictou, and this again provides employment.
My submission in essence is this. I ask the minister to give serious consideration to seeing that these two ships return to Pictou

this fall, because as I have pointed out this is most important for this town and indeed for my whole constituency.


Mr. Peters:: Mr. Chairman, I would like to say a few words on this particular item of the department. As the committee probably knows, 1 represent one of the large mining communities in the pre-Cambrian shield, and I am very interested in the mines department. However, as a miner who worked in the mines in the pre-Cambrian shield for many years, I never at any time saw any mines officials from the federal government; I never came into contact at any time with agents of the federal government or of the department of mines, and as far as I know none of my colleagues in the mines had ever done so.
So we begin to wonder just what the department is for, who it works for and what is the purpose of the department. I notice that a number of officials are present in the gallery. Each of them must head a separate branch, and I would be interested to know how many of them are connected with the part of the department which is concerned with mines.
We want to be fair, and I must congratulate the department on the valuable work which has been done for Canada on a national scale in the field of mapping and surveys. I have talked to many United States pilots and others who have used maps prepared by the department, and they claim that these maps are better than any maps which are available from any other source. As I say, I think the department is to be congratulated on the high calibre of the work which has been done in this particular department. The fact that Canada has, in the main, been mapped, means that we can assess the possibilities and be in a position to make the best use of them. Certainly the work which has been done, particularly in those areas where few or no people live and which have, in the main, been entered only by survey teams, is of a high calibre.
However, as to the other half of the department, that which deals with mines, I think less can be said in favour of its activities. I have here a booklet which is put out by the department under the name of the director of the mines branch setting out the history of the branch and describing the work it does. The booklet is certainly comprehensive and the branch has a great deal of equipment and machinery, by the look of it. I do know that the branch has done some useful work for particular companies with regard to the processing of ores and other things of that nature, but I suggest that this work might
24, 1960	5371
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys well be done by some of the companies themselves. Very little has been done, to my knowledge, in the field of development to assist new mines where this type of assistance would be of great value to people who are less well established. So far as I know this help is either not available to them, or it is not being used.
In my area especially for years we have been producing precious metals, silver for half a century and gold for almost as long. In conjunction with this, the extraction of certain other precious metals, such as plutonium, is taking place, but the work is being undertaken by the mines themselves by techniques devised in the individual mines. There are large deposits of iron ore in this area which have not yet been developed. There are deposits from iron ore in the Belcher islands which will have to be processed before shipment can be made. If the companies concerned could be assisted in carrying out this work they would then have some opportunity to develop their enterprises.
I am thinking of small mines such as one which came into operation in northern Ontario recently, owned by a man who started work in a mine at almost the same time I did. He has now developed his own asbestos mine. Over the years he has run into many problems which I am sure could have been solved with assistance such as the department claims is made available. This man's knowledge of the industry had advanced to such an extent that he would, I am sure, be in a position to know of any development, or any assistance in processing, which was available to him, and I think if such assistance had been available he would have taken advantage of it.
I presume that companies such as Consolidated Mining and International Nickel have no problem in sending someone to Ottawa with samples of ore, or sending half a ton of ore to have it processed and getting the department to do the work necessary to find the easiest and most economic method of extraction. However, I suggest that those in the prospecting field would find great difficulty in bringing their ore to Ottawa and having this work done. Many of them do not even know that this service is available.
One of the problems is that the department of mines, federally, and the departments of mines, provincially, overlap and cover approximately the same field. In Ontario, in particular, the department is extensive and has done a great deal of work in its own right. This means that less use is made of the federal department of mines than would otherwise be the case.
Another major problem in the development of the mineral resources of this country is
5372	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys the achievement of a completed industrial process, which would be of the greatest utility to the people of this country so they might profit more completely from the resources available. For instance, there are mines in Ungava, and we have known companies go into development in Labrador. We have let them take the basic metal, the raw iron ore, and ship it out as raw material rather than having it processed here in Canada.
May I call it one o'clock?
At one o'clock the committee took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The committee resumed at 2.30 p.m.
William Arnold Peters: Mr. Chairman, before the
luncheon adjournment I was outlining the fact that there are problems created by the division of responsibility for mineral resources between the provincial and federal governments. There should be more co-operation between the two bodies and more authority in this field should be assumed by the federal government. An assessment should be made of the full potentiality of our mineral resources. I cite what has been done by the national energy board as an example. An assessment of this kind would assist the development of our resources on a national rather than a provincial scale.
Many known ore deposits are not being developed now because of conditions existing in the provinces. In my own province we are interested in the development at Steep Rock where an open pit and deep mine operation have been undertaken. We are interested in taking full advantage of those natural resources. We are also interested in the development at the Belcher islands, at Kirkland lake and at Kapuskasing where there are known iron reserves which have not been developed.
The method of financing mining companies has created a problem concerning the overall mineral distribution in Canada. Mines in the Belcher islands could be developed advantageously. Problems would have to be overcome but the opening up of the north would be greatly assisted. Assistance should be given to the companies in the Belcher islands. This would mean a deep seaport being established at Moosonee and an extension of a railway into the area. New development would take place with international implications. We would likely have to export to markets other than United States markets. The people of northern Ontario feel it would be advantageous to develop some of our mineral resources for new markets

in Europe in addition to United States markets. They feel we should not place our eggs in one basket. A large United States company holds mining rights at Dane. The company has no intention of developing the property but proposes to keep it as a future potential source as it keeps other property it holds throughout the world.
The federal Department of Mines and Technical Surveys should eventually develop a liaison with the provinces under which there would be recognized the right of the federal government to ascertain the value to Canadians of the development of our national resources.
All hon. members are familiar with the uranium problem. Operations in this field should have been restricted. The government should have assessed the potential reserves of uranium and the anticipated markets. The department should have had some concept of the potentiality of reserves in relation to the demand on the world markets. If the department did have this knowledge the development of uranium at Bancroft and particularly at Elliot Lake should have been curtailed. We have spent more money in the development of Elliot Lake than we will ever get back out of it unless the present circumstances radically alter.
If mines are to be assisted under federal legislation, as one hon. member suggested they should be, we should determine what we want to have accomplished in this field. We made a mistake in enacting legislation that made possible the financing of an uranium development that had only a limited life time and limited sales. The mines could not possibly have made the money they did without taking advantage of the situation on the scale they did. It is rumoured that one financier borrowed up to $40 million in the United States to establish a mining operation at Elliot Lake. Through subsidies and the sale of the contract he had-it was a government affair-he paid back the money, took $10 million and entered the exploitation field. He is now working in the Arctic region in the development of an oil industry.
I suggest that these people are taking advantage of the federal government. They are taking advantage of the very things that were made available to them to allow the mines to be developed. They are now using this privilege and, in many cases, abusing it, because we were shortsighted in allowing the condition to develop. The minister may say that this does not come within his jurisdiction and it is not his field, and he may be right because, as I said before, I am not too sure what are the rights and privileges of the mines branch.

The advantages that the mining companies get flow from the federal government and therefore in my opinion the federal department must take some responsibility in this matter. I believe that in fields such as gold mining, where we give emergency assistance, the mines department should take an interest in the industry. I have made the point, and certainly other hon. members have made it also, that the inspection of the mines toward which we are paying assistance is nil, especially when the amount of money paid over is taken into consideration. We are not in agreement that all those companies are honest, for the simple reason that, as an example, one of the mining companies in northern Ontario for years bragged about having a portfolio of $70 million. They have now taken this portfolio and have gone into the steel industry and into a number of other interests. They have taken that money out of the community and the country and it is no longer available even for pensions for their employees or for retiring some of the debt of the communities that had to be built to allow the company to make the money it originally put into its portfolio.
We think the department has some responsibility in such fields as safety. I do not think it should go into it in the same way as the provincial governments do, but a great deal of work must be done in the field of silicosis. It is not enough to say that silica dust in the lungs is a very bad thing and then pour into the same lungs a great deal of aluminum dust and say it will solve the problem. When we do that we have covered up the problem but we have not solved it. The responsibility for this type of research should not rest entirely with the provinces because each province has adopted a different attitude, and the problem is not the same in the mining industry in all provinces.
The federal government has an exceedingly important role to play in this field in the Northwest Territories where it has done very little for the protection of its miners. Many of the miners coming back to the fields in which I have worked have been in very poor physical condition. They have suffered and have been able to get very little recompense for their suffering. I attended a meeting in Elliot Lake not too long ago where the problem of radiation was under discussion. It is very interesting to know that no regulations have been drawn up in this regard. While this may be a provincial matter, the federal government must assume some responsibility because we are responsible for that industry being born in the first place in that area. We control their sales. We loaned them the money; we gave them the tax exemptions which made it possible for
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys them to be there, so we have some responsibility. Yet, some of the mines have not even granted their employees the right to obtain a urinalysis to determine radiation effects. We have supplied no film strips, no matter what the jobs are.
I was very surprised to know that to such men as repairmen and men working in high concentrations of uranium production, some of the mines give urinalysis tests which determine the radiation effects. Others do not bother doing so. They have pointed out that there was no reason why they should do so.
These are fields in which the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys can serve a useful function for all the Canadian people, and particularly the people who work in that industry and their families. They must exercise some responsibility in this field. I would suggest in particular that in these fields in which the federal government makes a large contribution it should assume much more authority and much more responsibility with respect to industrial relations and safety measures than it does now. I see no reason why the government cannot do that.
For years I have been interested in learning why the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys explosives division did not do something about demanding a change in the type of explosives used in mines. Many of the employees suffer more from exposure from nitrogen gases than they do from exposure to dust. Many miners will tell you that this nitrogen gas, by burning the linings and the membranes of the nose, throat and lungs, eliminates the hairs and other protection which were there originally and that a great deal of the problem that develops, along with silicosis, is brought about by nitrogen in the gases caused by the explosion of ordinary nitrogen.
There are other types of explosives which could be used which have no large amounts of nitrogen in them and which would serve the same purpose. They would probably cost a little more money but in relation to the amount of material that could be produced in a mine, which is attached to this problem, the cost factor probably would be greatly reduced because of the increased efficiency and increased production that would take place by a simple change in the type of explosives used in the mine.
Then there is the matter of government subsidies and government assistance in the mining field. As I pointed out, in my opinion this gives the federal government a great deal more authority than it has ever exercised in this industry. We have the problem of coal in British Columbia and in the maritimes. In
5374	HOUSE OF
Supply*-Mines and Technical Surveys those areas the production of coal has been greatly reduced. At the same time we are paying very high subventions on coal from the maritimes. We have tried to solve these problems in one way but we have not really solved anything at all. We have accomplished very little except to postpone the time when the inevitable will take place. This is true with respect to emergency gold mining assistance. We have never opposed the assistance because it was absolutely necessary when it was put into effect to alleviate a problem over which neither the mines, the employees nor the mining communities have any control. But this type of subsidy has been used for the protection only of the industry and the few results which will flow from that protection, such as a given number of jobs and a slight wage increase.
The wage increases flowing from this assistance have been very slight. The wage increases which have taken place have flowed, in my opinion, more from automation in the mines than anything else. A large mine that used to have 3,000 employees is now operating and turning out the same tonnage with from 900 to 1,200 employees. Obviously production per man has increased to such an extent that they could easily double the wages without adding to the cost factor. Very little of the benefit that the mines sometimes claim flow from the emergency gold mining assistance returns to the community in the form of wages and spending by the employees of that industry.
I am sure that this problem is common in the coal industry. This is why I am afraid it is going to exist in Elliot Lake. I would not be the least bit surprised to find the department suggesting to the minister that we should stock-pile uranium; that the government should buy it and should make some attempt to keep those mines operating on a partial basis. I would rather see Elliot Lake close down tomorrow than have this happen, than have them carry on for the next 15 or 20 years on a subsistence level where they are not able to increase wages and living standards. I do not want to see them remain in the kind of situation that has existed in the maritimes for years and in my own area where gold is the principal product. I would much rather see these mines closed down completely and the municipalities have to fend for themselves and find secondary industries. If the minister looks at the problem at all I think his conclusion will be similar to mine. If assistance by way of subsidy, subvention or otherwise from the federal government is going to go into these areas, let us at least make it in a form that the areas can develop and help themselves.


While this type of hand-out has served a purpose and will serve a purpose, in my opinion it is only justifiable if it is carried on for a short period of time until other assistance of a permanent nature can be provided. As far as I am concerned, some of the assistance under the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act should have been earmarked for secondary industries and secondary development in the mining fields. It should not have been left wholly to the mines to do what they felt like doing about it because in many cases it has been of very little benefit to the areas concerned.
In many cases, however, the mines have done an admirable job and in my area there is one that in my opinion has been well managed. I never liked the manager. I have negotiated with him and we never saw eye to eye. I have known him for a long time and he is a rough, tough fellow who knows what mining is all about. I refer to Mr. Ken Gray who is the manager of Sylvanite mine and also controls it to a large extent. He is a man who in my opinion has practised all possible conservation methods and has taken full advantage of assistance under the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act. But in reading the Northern Miner I find that even with this type of leadership the mine is going to close down. This is inevitable because emergency gold mining assistance will only help them up to a point. This community is going to be faced not with an emergency gold mining problem but with an emergency problem involving the community itself in which gold will not be a factor because unless the price of gold increases considerably we are not going to be able to do the prospecting and development necessary to bring in very low grade properties.
I hope the government does not follow the course that it appears they might follow. I say "appears" in the light of the reports made from time to time by the committee originally established to consider the problem of Elliot Lake. In my view Elliot Lake is a specific problem that can be solved in a specific way because it only has to do with uranium mines, but on one occasion the house leader got up and dragged in Bancroft and Uranium City and said he would not be able to do anything for Elliot Lake that he could not do for Bancroft and Uranium City. The problem is not the same at all.
The mines at Bancroft and Uranium City have been operating for quite a number of years. There are also other interests in these areas. When you throw in a number of unrelated problems you confuse the issue. The issue is no longer clear-cut. The problem

can be solved quite easily by paying a subsidy or subvention or doing something else to enable the industry to carry on at a limited capacity and with a very low rate of production. It seems to me this is going to be the solution, and I should like to caution the minister about using a subvention of this type to help to solve the problem of the uranium industry. The problem in the Elliot Lake area can be solved by putting money into bringing in secondary industries and conserving the mines for the day when they can be operated at peak efficiency. The day will come when uranium may be used in steel production and other things. In the meantime I hope that the minister does not confuse the problem with all the other problems that can be and have been introduced in the past in this field.


Mr. Aiken:: Mr. Chairman, I had not intended to speak except on the technical surveys branch of the department but having listened to the hon. member for Timis-kaming who has just taken his seat I feel I must comment on and disagree with one statement he made. I may not have heard him correctly but I understood him to say that when some of these mines, and he mentioned a number of them, get into difficulties they should close down completely rather than struggle along. I cannot agree with that at all. If this were carried to its logical conclusion it would mean the closing down of a good many of the coal mines in the maritimes which have struggled along and a good many other mines which have struggled along and provided a minimum subsistence for a number of people, thus enabling them to remain in their home towns. The hon. member made a very broad statement and as a broad statement I think it was incorrect. In my view there are a good many occasions when people are justified in continuing to carry on as best they can in the hope that some change will come for the better.
I should like to speak for a minute or two about the question of technical surveys. This department has a major role to play in the development of Canada. Unlike some of the other departments of government, the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys has to take the lead rather than follow. In the case of many departments they cannot operate until the country is opened up and proper conditions prevail. The reverse is true of this department. Those who work for it must go into unmapped and uncharted territory, make surveys and maps and locate resources before other departments can follow in their path.
24, 1960	5375
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
To keep this lead we need a large supply of able and enthusiastic scientific personnel. As the department is now constituted it has a very satisfactory nucleus of specialists in the highly specialized fields which we find throughout the department. But when the mines, forests and waters committee examined the estimates of this department last year the members of the committee discovered that one of the greatest difficulties concerned the retention of scientific personnel in Canada, people with the ability to carry out geological surveys, mapping and other work in our northern territories. It was found that these people were easily attracted elsewhere by the great differential in salaries.
At one time it was considered that the government service was one of the better services in which to work but gradually this changed to the point where, up until quite recently, the government service was declining. Industry became the most lucrative field of endeavour and until recently the universities were in second place because they had raised their standards. The branches of the government were gradually declining. I was very pleased to see that the latest salary increases proposed will include improved salaries for scientific personnel and will cover a great many of the people now in the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys whom this country needs very badly.
We also need to bring into the country and educate here other persons who have special scientific abilities for the jobs that they will undertake. I was pleased to learn in the research committee recently that the salaries and working conditions of scientific personnel are improving. The president of the national research council, who is very much concerned with the standards of scientists in this country, many of whom eventually find their way into the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys, stated that there is now a net immigration into Canada of scholars seeking postdoctorate fellowships.
In other words, the Canadian reputation for scientific advance and research is increasing throughout the world and more people are coming to this country to receive advanced scientific education in research than are going from this country to receive such education elsewhere. As a result of the high standard that is being set in Canada, I feel we are becoming well recognized in the scientific field.
I was also pleased to hear the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration recently invite persons from the United States particularly to come to Canada in order to help to develop this country. A few years ago this suggestion
5376	HOUSE OF COMMONS
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys might have been considered fantastic. For many years the flow was the other way. I think it is not such a fantastic thing now. We are hopeful that persons who come here to receive advanced scientific training will be more inclined to stay; and I think that many may take seriously the request of the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration to come to this country and to help to develop it.
There is one other matter I should like to mention in connection with this department. This concerns our advance in the field of radio-astronomy. On June 20 the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys opened at Penticton, British Columbia the new radio astrophysical observatory. This observatory brings Canada into the field of radio-astronomy for the first time. The radio telescope at White lake near Penticton is not the largest in the world. That honour is reserved for the radio telescope at Jodrell Bank in England. However, it is a radio telescope on a scale comparable to that of others established in North America and in various other parts of the world and it will assist our astronomers and those persons interested in space research to obtain information which it is absolutely impossible to obtain by observation, even with the best telescope that is available. These things indicate that Canada is advancing in the scientific field and that the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys is keeping up with the most recent advances in astronomy and in the other scientific endeavours which it has undertaken for the development of this country.


Mr. Herridge:: I am one of two members of the House of Commons who represent one of the most famous mining areas in Canada, namely the Kootenay mining area in the southeastern portion of British Columbia. I had the pleasure and the opportunity as a young man to know a good many of the early pioneer men in the mining industry, and some of the pioneer women, who helped to build up the mining industry in the interior, including the at that time well known Nels Demers who went into the Kootenays in 1856 and stayed there until 1910.
When I look over at the genial minister who has charge of this socialist type of service to society I find it extremely difficult to be critical, and I will not be very critical this afternoon. I simply want to make a few suggestions and a few observations as a result of my contact with the department on various occasions and my experience around the country in the various mining companies in my constituency and meeting persons interested in mining and others.

This department which carries on essential services in research, scientific work and technical work that is essential in the location, surveying and the proper and adequate development of our natural resources is somewhat generally considered to be a non-contentious and non-political department, a department that does not arouse much contention or controversy. However, it contains a staff which is performing an essential and, to many people, little known service to this country. I say that because I have had the opportunity to* discuss the work of this department with various groups, when I have been speaking to groups in the constituency and in other places.
I am amazed at how little is known by the average Canadian outside of the mining industry and the universities, of the essential work that is undertaken by the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys and' that so little is known as to the valuable information that can be obtained from this department, its reports, its publications, its officials and its staff. While this information is essential and valuable to the mining industry and to others interested in the development of other natural resources, I think much greater use could be made of this information on a wider scale on the part of people who are interested in the development of this country.
Interest in this department has been stimulated in recent years in my constituency and in the Kootenay area generally because of its officials and staff taking some part in the surveys in the Columbia river basin. That work has brought the people of the district for the first time, in many cases, in contact with the engineers and the other staff conducting these surveys. As a result of that contact I notice an increased interest in the work of the department and, as a result, inquiries as to where they can obtain maps, information and so on.
I want to make a suggestion or two. I suggest these parties are working for the people of Canada, not for any particular group. Their work is usually directly related to some development. When a party goes into an area the people of the area are obliged to depend on casual information and, in some cases, on rumour. I think there should be a form of press release issued periodically so that the people will know what this survey crew is doing as part of a larger project and so on. It is only right and I think it would be well for the department. I think that would be interesting information and very much worth-while information. I have had that suggestion made to me by a number of people in my constituency who are greatly interested in the work of the department.

In addition to that, I think it is ministers who usually give talks to public meetings and various organizations. I am quite sure that the officials and members of the staff in any given locality would foe quite willing to co-operate with local organizations, for instance, as was done in the Columbia river basin where there were parties of this department in that basin for years. I think it would be an excellent idea if the appropriate engineer or person would give a chat to the Rotary club or to the chamber of commerce in this area on the particular work of the department and the project that is being undertaken and the scientific information it is trying to obtain.
In this connection I want to quote very briefly from page 31 of the report. I have read a considerable part of this report before but not all of it. It says:
The Vancouver office gave information and assistance to industrialists and others interested in metallic and industrial minerals, engineering geology, ground-water supplies, and construction materials. A number of short term field projects were carried out by the staff geologists, mainly at the request of other government departments among which were engineering-geology reports on dam and power sites along the Columbia river. Activity at the office continued to increase: there were more than 8,039 visitors, and 17,705 copies of publications of various kinds were distributed.
This is all to the good but the information is going largely to persons directly interested in the mining industry or to governments or persons interested in the development of hydro power, and things of that sort. I suggest that having this extra organization with the information as well as the Vancouver office it could be used to greater advantage by making certain the information was available to high schools and other various organizations through appropriate outlets.
I think something more should be done to let the people know what information can be obtained, the maps which are available and the services which are available through this department. I know the larger corporations know all about it. Officials of Consolidated Miming and Smelting Corporation told me that they have had wonderful contacts with the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys. They get every co-operation and other companies do as well. But I suggest that this department should also make certain it does all it can to serve all the people, such as the smaller mining companies -I have run into cases where they were not aware of the services rendered by this department-prospectors and others.
I should like the minister when he replies to indicate what arrangements are made with provincial departments of mines or other related departments to avoid any overlapping
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Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys in services or expenditures. I realize when speaking on this question that natural resources generally speaking come within the jurisdiction of provincial governments; but I would like the minister to inform the committee what is done in the way of consultation with provincial departments of mines and related branches of government to make sure there is no overlapping in any work being undertaken in surveys and things like that, or in publications, thereby creating unnecessary expenditure.


Mr. Comiois:: There is none in publications.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Following on the lines of the hon. member for Comox-Alberni when he spoke this morning, I want to bring to the minister's attention the excellent work which has been done over the course of 50 years by the interior chamber of mines which has its headquarters at Nelson, British Columbia. That organization is financed by subscriptions from local mining companies interested in smelting, mining and so on. I want to ask the minister if he would inform the committee if co-operation exists between his department and organizations such as chambers of mines in the development of knowledge of the work undertaken by the department.
I suggest that as most of these chambers of mines-and in British Columbia there is the chamber of mines in Vancouver and in the interior we have the interior chamber of mines in Nelson-are located on a main or well travelled street, usually with good window space. They could be used as an agency or a medium to advertise the work of this department and the information which is available in the form of publications, maps, and so on. I think they would be very willing to co-operate in this respect. Nelson is the centre for the Kootenay West area and people going there could get this information.
There is an increasing interest amongst these people in where they can obtain maps of the Columbia river basin area. The department has published some excellent maps in that respect and I think I have copies of maps covering the whole basin. But I get frequent inquiries and I think this would be a valuable outlet for information. I am sure the interior chamber of mines would be only too willing to co-operate. They could also provide information as to the services offered with respect to checking up on certain ores, recommending certain processes and treatments and so on.
I have another suggestion. I am one inclined to travel around the hills and mountains and I have been interested in the geological surveys which have been undertaken all through the southeastern interior. This is
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Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys very necessary work when it comes to the consideration of hydro development and I have one suggestion to make. I notice that the longer I talk the sadder the minister looks. I suggest that instead of having just a number on a given monument, which is usually just a cement post and a copper or bronze plug in the top of it, it would be much more interesting to local people, travellers or tourists to have the elevation mentioned at the same time. Usually there is a number on the post, like "No. 96 geological survey", and if you want any information you write for it. I think with very little extra expense you could have the elevation marked on the plug and on the monument as well which would make for much more interest. I advance that as a suggestion.
The final matter on my list of very mild complaints is this. The minister knows I am interested in this because a good number of my constituents are interested as well as visitors from the south who come up by water craft along the Columbia lakes up as far north as Revelstoke. They are interested in obtaining a chart to assist them in navigation. The minister knows about this because last year he informed me that his department was very busy and had not had time to work on charts of this sort. I suggested that they could be sold at a price which would show little expense to the treasury. I am sure that everybody using water craft would be willing to pay a dollar in order to be able to find a safe channel from the international boundary to the south up as far as Revelstoke. When the minister replies I would like him to tell me what progress is being made in the preparation of a chart suitable for navigation purposes from the international boundary along the Columbia as far north as Revelstoke.
I have a few more remarks to make on appropriate items, but at this point I shall resume my seat.


William Arnold Peters: I would like to reply to something said by the hon. member for Parry Sound-Muskoka when he attributed to me the suggestion that many small mines would close down. I worked for 15 years in a small mine and I would be the last one to suggest that we do anything which would close the mines down; but we do suggest that the end result will produce the position which I am sure is in the minds of the people who suggested that aid should be given.
Looking at it in retrospect I am sure we could solve the problem of the few communities who depend on this industry. I am sure we could take a few million dollars and resolve some of the problems in the same way as we solved the subsidy question
[Mr. Herridge.l
in relation to coal. All I say is that we have tried this method and it has not been satisfactory as far as the communities were concerned. There have continued to be emergency problems, and I suggest this step should be taken not in the uranium industry but that assistance be given to those communities for which we are responsible. Our responsibility to them is not necessarily to keep the mines in operation just for the sake of operating them; it is a responsibility to the people of the community to see that some alternative is provided for the employment of those working in mines which may cease to operate.
May I say I am surprised that the department of mines is not making greater effort to assist the coal mines industry in the maritimes. I am surprised that the government has not undertaken a research program in that area perhaps with a view to producing a form of distillation such as is used in Germany. I understand that when a deep coal mine has been shut down one can close everything off, drill holes into it and begin burning the coal in seams where the coal is not of an economic grade. A methane gas is thus produced which, while it may not be suitable for burning in homes, can be used in the manufacture of steel and other industrial purposes. This particular suggestion may be of no great value, but it seems to me some solution must be found to the problems of these people in the maritimes who have long been dependant upon this industry.
We should not wait until a problem develops before action is taken. Before we develop a new industry, such as the uranium industry, let us in future decide what the industry is worth to the Canadian people and the purpose it is intended to serve. Then let us go all out to get the most out of it for the benefit of Canadians and the economy generally. All too often the action taken is haphazard and uncontrolled. For example, we are still drilling hundreds and hundreds of oil wells every year, yet the hon. member for Calgary South tells us that there is a great problem about selling the gas which we are already producing. This seems to me rather silly. What is needed is for the department of mines to make an estimate of our potential and an estimate of what our needs are going to be. Then we could develop this natural resource so that the Canadian people can get the most benefit out of the industry.


Eldon Mattison Woolliams: May I ask the hon. member a question? He has said we should have an assessment made of our resources. Was not that the very reason the Borden commission

was set up by this government and was that information not contained in the Borden report?


William Arnold Peters: I am aware that the Borden commission did carry out a survey, certainly in the field of energy, yet we had this great problem to face in connection with the uranium industry, and that whole story only lasted for five or six years. The Borden report said that in 1975 or thereabouts we would be in the position of having industrial uses for that type of energy, but there is the period of waiting to be considered, and in the meantime we have no adequate means of carrying the communities affected. We cannot very well expect people to continue to paint the houses in which they are not able to live, or to wait about for a job which does not exist, hoping for industries to develop. Some of these assessments have been made, yet despite this we are continuing to develop our program in a haphazard manner. The Borden commission estimated what the needs of the Canadian people will be with regard to oil, and also made an estimate of the potential-


Eldon Mattison Woolliams: May I ask a second question? That is the very point I am trying to make. If the hon. member reads the Borden report he will see how many trillion cubic feet of natural gas we need for Canada, how much we can export; how much electrical energy we can export, how much we need and so on. That was the very purpose of the report.


William Arnold Peters: I agree entirely with what the hon. member says. That is exactly what I was trying to say. These things should be a matter of common sense. We know that the Borden report gave us a lot of information as to the needs of the Canadian people and the productive capacity available. What I am saying is that the department of mines has not asserted its right to decide what is going to be done about it.
The natural resources of Canada belong to the people as a whole yet we are continuing to drill for oil, although we already have more than we can sell. Not only that, but I understand we are going to buy oil from Russia and other places. I think the department of mines should be in a position to govern these things and do something about what is contained in the Borden report.
This brings up another question which puzzles me. I read all the reports which are presented to the house and perhaps I did the department a disservice in my opening remarks by not referring to all the publications which have been put out. I did not mean to imply that the department is not doing any
24, 1960	5379
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys work in this regard. All I was trying to say was that they were not doing their work in the mining field in the way in which I should like to see it done. Reports such as the Borden commission report are placed before the government and before the Canadian people. Politicians tear them apart and say they are good reports, or that they are not good reports, but what does the government do about it? What good are these reports if no action follows as a result? In the short period during which I have been here I have seen very little effort on the part of the government to implement the recommendations made by these commissions.
I should like to say a few words now about the assistance which is provided to the gold mining industry and subsidies to industry in general. The gold mining assistance act was introduced, first of all, as an emergency measure but it has continued until the present time and the word "emergency" has not yet been taken out of the title. Today the industry is facing the same problem as it was facing in 1948 and the government has given no indication that it intends to consider some form of long term solution in which the gold mining industry would be interested.
One of the most satisfactory solutions would, of course, be the raising of the price of gold to the producers. If the present method of assistance were used in order to assist other industries, that is, emergency measures rather than long term solutions, I do not think the consequences would be at all favourable and while we do not want to put any company out of business, it would seem desirable that the government should consider some other method of assisting communities dependent on the mining industry. We would be well advised to try another method of helping the industry along the lines of a long term solution which would not be in the nature of an emergency measure.
(Translation):


Joseph-Roland Comtois: Mr. Chairman, first I should like to thank the hon. member for Villeneuve (Mr. Dumas) for his complimentary remarks directed at the officials and other employees of my department. His compliments were so sincere that they even elicited a discreet warning from the hon. member for Laurier (Mr. Chevrier).
In reply to the request of the hon. member for Villeneuve, I intend next year to prepare, for the benefit of all hon. members, a report on the activities of my department in the previous year, and also a brief outline of the program for the current year, with particular regard to geological, topographical, geographical and other assignments. Such information will be useful to every hon.
5380	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys member when the estimates of my department are taken up in the house.
(Text):
The hon. members for Villeneuve, Port Arthur and the Yukon have referred to the recommendation of the standing committee on mines, forests and waters concerning the indicated need for expansion of the activities of my department. I should like to assure them that I have studied these recommendations with my officials and we have attempted to plan what we believe is the needed expansion of departmental activities for the next five years. This plan will be reflected in our future estimates to the limit that it can be accommodated in the future budgets of our government.
(Translation):
The hon. member for Villeneuve has raised a number of questions, such as federal aid to Quebec roads, the mining exploration program carried out by the Eldorado Mining and Refining Company and finally the transfer to the provinces of the resources found in the continental shelf. Such matters are not the responsibility of my department, but I shall be pleased to discuss them with those of my colleagues who are concerned.
(Text):
Recommendations were also made by the hon. members for Villeneuve and Port Arthur to the effect that we should increase the number of university students we employ in the summer months. There is a limit to the number of students we can accommodate without decreasing the efficiency or accuracy of our work. In years when work opportunity makes possible the employment of only a limited number of students we are always willing to take on more of them provided we know soon enough in advance to properly plan for larger size or additional field parties. I should like to mention that of the 786 geology students in our universities this year my department provided jobs for 245 of them; that is, 32 per cent or nearly one third of the total number of students.
I was pleased to hear the comments of the hon. member for Port Arthur concerning the economic reports of our mineral resources division such as those on iron ore. I can assure the hon. gentleman that more of this type of report are contemplated.
The hon. member for Port Arthur also asked what my department is doing in the form of research which could lead to more uses for uranium. May I say that in 1959, following discussions with Eldorado Mining and Refining, a research project was initiated by our mines branch for the development of non-nuclear uses for uranium. Eldorado made a grant of $10,000 to cover the salary of one engineer and incidental expenses relating to
[Mr. Comtois.l

the project. Prior to the arrival of the Eldorado engineer on November 1, 1959 some experimental alloying work had already been undertaken in the ferrous and non-ferrous fields. Attention was focussed on possible modifications of various types of steels when these are used in large tonnages. Aluminum, copper, magnesium and some other metals were also investigated. The basis of the research was related to the affinity that uranium has to oxygen, nitrogen, carbon, sulphur and other elements. At the present time there are four engineers and three technicians who are employees of the mines branch engaged in this work. The staff provided by Eldorado Mining and Refining consists of one engineer and two technicians. However, they have increased their original grant to $100,000. This increase was made to provide funds for an additional staff of four engineers and five technicians.
Investigations have indicated that small amounts of uranium might have very important results in improving the physical properties of steels used for many purposes. A few examples which may be quoted are axles, shafting, chain, high temperature tubing, piping, bolts and tool steels. Rolling tests have been carried out at a Canadian steel plant which proved that the uranium bearing steels are not difficult to work. In fact they reacted similarly to ordinary carbon steels in the rolling process. Steels are being made up at the present time in order to actually fabricate items which will be tried in service.
If the service tests duplicate the experimental results already obtained in the laboratory the whole program will be pushed forward another important step. It should be pointed out, however, that large steel tests will eventually have to be carried out before any item may be considered successful. There are variations in every stage of the process as one scales up such a laboratory test. It is anticipated that should one use prove successful, there will be more and more uses discovered over a period of time, which will pyramid the use of uranium in the metals industry.
May I also say that steps are far advanced for the creation of a research foundation which would help finance research in new uses of uranium. This project has been initiated by the uranium mining industry. Eldorado Mining and Refining Company of Canada and the mines branch of my department would most likely be associated with the foundation, making it a joint industry-government venture.
The hon. member for Port Arthur has asked how information was gathered in connection with a turndown of a request for

a road to a mining property in his constituency. Most of the information was obtained from the president of the company when he appeared before the interdepartmental roads appraisal committee and in subsequent discussions with officers of my department. The conclusion reached by my officers as a result was that considerable additional work had to be done before the prospect could be considered an economic proposition, and hence at this stage federal participation in a road to the property would be inadvisable.
I should also like to assure the hon. member that this government is very alert to the question of the further processing of ores and minerals in Canada including the possible use of direct reduction processes in the case of iron ores. A cabinet committee exists of which I am a member. This committee constantly keeps the situation under review and stands ready to encourage by any reasonable means the further processing of ores and minerals in our country.
(Translation):
In reply to the question put by the hon. member for Laurier, I am glad to inform him that I personally discussed the matter of the boundary between Quebec and Ontario on lake St. Francis, with the ministers of lands and forests of Ontario and Quebec. There seems to be some agreement on a formula that would satisfy both provinces. The new demarcation line would coincide with the middle of the St. Lawrence seaway navigation channel.
I shall gladly submit further representations to the authorities concerned for the final settlement of this matter. I am not making a political issue out of this. I am simply offering the services of my department for the purpose of delimiting the area. I made that suggestion to the Quebec minister of lands and forests some time ago. I have also conferred with the Ontario minister of lands and forests. Both agreed that it was an excellent idea, and I think they are prepared to settle the problem. Of course, I shall have to contact the new Quebec minister of lands and forests, and I shall be pleased to do so. I assume he will show the same readiness as did his predecessor in accepting the recommendations of his departmental officials, and that we shall succeed in settling this problem once and for all.


Lionel Chevrier: I find it an excellent suggestion.


Joseph-Roland Comtois: I think it is the best possible one under the circumstances, and we will avoid any disagreements at some later date. This is a natural demarcation line, one that should always be very simple to maintain. It
24, 1960	538I
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys is a line that requires no markings. The markings are already in place, everything is ready, and I hope that before long we shall have succeeded in finding a final answer to this problem.
Mr. Chairman, I was also asked a question by the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillin-gate (Mr. Pickersgill). This being the first time he deals with the problem, I think the hon. member for Laurier might enlighten him on the matter, which so far has always been considered as coming exclusively within the purview of the two provinces concerned.
Again I repeat that if we intervene in this matter, it will only be as go-betweens, to help reach a settlement. I assume that the authorities of the provinces of Newfoundland and Quebec, who are on very friendly terms, will be unable to refuse each other anything. The hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate should have no difficulty in persuading his Quebec friends.
As far as my department is concerned, we shall always be happy to offer the services of our team to establish the boundary line once and for all. I doubt, however, that the problem can be settled before some time, because in this case it is not a boundary such as the one between Ontario and Quebec, and I am not sure whether the premiers of the two provinces will be able to reach agreement. I hope so, but in any event it will be the responsibility of the premiers of those two provinces to settle the matter, and I repeat that our attitude towards the problem will always remain the same.
(Text):
In reply to a question by the hon. member for Burin-Burgeo, I wish to inform him that as far as the safety of the ships and personnel is concerned the responsibility rests fully with the sailing master of the ships, and definite instructions have been issued to that effect.
As far as wages of ships' crews are concerned, I had taken note of the problem because the hon. member had spoken to me about it. I can tell him that the same day that we spoke about the matter I got in touch with the Minister of Labour and he agreed that this problem had to be settled. He admitted it seemed unfair and that it should be settled and I have a memorandum prepared for him explaining the situation and 1 am quite sure it will be settled once and for all.
With respect to the St. Lawrence fluorspar mine, may I inform the hon. member that requests have been received by our mines
5382	HOUSE OF COMMONS
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
branch for assistance toward monitoring radiation. The matter is being discussed with the Department of National Health and Welfare.
The hon. member for Pictou asked a question about the berthing of departmental ships in Pictou. I can assure him that we are planning to berth some of our ships at Pictou next winter, namely the same ones as least year. I think this answers his question.
In reply to the hon. member for Calgary South, I can only inform him that the technical feasibility committee has not yet handed in its report. Research and investigations are still being conducted in our mines branch, and by Richfield Oil Company.
The hon. member for Kootenay West asked what is being done to avoid the duplication of work with the provinces. Our directors of branches-geology survey and so forth- meet every year with officials of the provinces and discuss programs and projects to avoid duplication and to learn of the priority needs of the provinces in certain surveys which we then undertake. Our association with the chambers of mines is on a very friendly basis. We supply them with copies of our maps and reports and generally support any of their activities which have something in common with my department.
We have not yet got around to producing a chart of the Columbia river from the United States border to Revelstoke. We plan to undertake this as soon as possible. I can assure the hon. member for Kootenay West that I will do my best to see that the work is done and that we can produce the chart. I do not know how many copies can be sold. The hon. member mentioned $1 a copy, but how many copies could be sold at that price? That is what I do not know. This chart will cost a great deal of money. I do not expect we could ever be reimbursed by the sales made. Anyway I shall certainly discuss this matter with my officials and will do my best to satisfy the hon. member for the benefit of his wonderful district. I can say that.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I thank the minister for the statement. Possibly I was a bit optimistic, but I would say that at the present time there would be anywhere from 100 to 200 conies sold a year. About 100 boats came up from the United States last year.


Joseph-Roland Comtois: They might buy more than one at a time and give some to their friends.
There is another matter that I wish to clear up. The hon. member for Laurier brought up again this matter of helicopters. To begin with, I should like to say something about Okanagan Helicopters Limited.

In my statement in the house on April 13, in answer to the charges made by the hon. member for Laurier respecting Autair Helicopter Services Limited, it was my concern to be as fair as possible to all parties involved. However, after reading over my statement, particularly the part which contains a passing reference to the sources of the hon. member's information, I wish to correct any wrong impression this statement may have left quite unintentionally. I wish to make it clear that it was not my purpose to imply that Okanagan Helicopter Services Limited had directed the hon. member for Laurier to raise the matter in the house, nor did I want to imply that the hon. gentleman had obtained all of his information from officials of the company.
I wish to assure the house that the high standards of operations of Okanagan Helicopter Services Limited have always been recognized by myself and officials of my department, and that the recent discussion with respect to this year's helicopter operations, in support of our polar continental shelf expedition, has not altered the high esteem which we have for this company. I want to make that statement to be fair to the company.


Lionel Chevrier: Would the minister allow me to interrupt? I thank him for having made that statement but I should like to say that I have never on any occasion spoken to any of the officers of Okanagan Helicopter in connection with this matter.


Mr. Comtois:: Thank you. I wish to correct the impression I may have given to the house. There are some details I should like to clear up to the best of my knowledge and ability. With respect to the matter of a letter of intent, the hon. member for Laurier will recall that there was mention made of such a letter by him. In answer to the charge made on April 13, 1960 by the hon. member that a letter of intent had been sent to Okanagan Helicopter with respect to the aforementioned contract, I wish to re-emphasize that no such letter was ever sent by any official of my department to the Okanagan group or any other group except the one which was going to have the contract. The only letter of intent which was ever sent by this department with respect to this contract was forwarded to Autair Helicopter Services Limited on February 17, 1960. No other letter of intent was sent. Therefore I am doubtful about the source of the information received by the hon. member. It is certainly not reliable as far as this matter is concerned.
The hon. member for Laurier also made a statement to the effect that Pacific Helicopter Services Limited was eliminated because it did not operate a Sikorsky S-55 type of

helicopter. This charge is unfounded. In a letter dated January 6 Pacific Helicopter Services Limited advised the department that they were unable to quote on this type of helicopter service. Therefore the company was not eliminated by officials of my department but they eliminated' themselves, not only with regard to the supplying of the S-55 but also with regard to the Bell G-l or Bell G-2 because, for the efficient operation of the project, it was considered essential that both the Bell and the Sikorsky helicopters be operated by the same company. The quotation submitted by Pacific Helicopter Services Limited for the supplying of two Bells could not, therefore, be considered further.


Lionel Chevrier: May I ask the minister a question?


Paul Comtois: Yes.


Lionel Chevrier: If the facts are as stated by the minister, why was Autair allowed to submit a tender when they did not own a Sikorsky S-55 at the time?


Paul Comtois: If the hon. member will be patient I think he will get the answer. Let us take one matter at a time.
With regard to the charge that Autair Helicopter Services Limited did not operate the S-55 type of helicopter, I am advised by reliable sources that this is also unfounded. In fact, Autair Helicopter had two S-55 helicopters under operation at that time. Furthermore, this company had only to indicate their interest in supplying this type of helicopter to the department to be considered, as long as we were satisfied under the regulations of the air transport board that they could supply one and that the necessary permission, rates and so forth had been established.
It was also said that Autair's tariffs were not the lowest. The hon. member for Laurier stated in the house on April 13 that "a careful analysis of the sessional paper which the minister tabled in the house, No. 235, tabled on March 25, 1960, indicates that the tariff filed by Autair was not the lowest." I cannot disagree enough with this statement as the sessional paper to which the hon. member referred indicates that Autair's tariffs, based on a utilization of 100 hours per month are clearly the lowest.
The charges made by the hon. member for Laurier to the effect that Autair was not sufficiently qualified to do this type of operation are quite incorrect.


Lionel Chevrier: The air transport board disagrees with you on that.
24. 1960	5383
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys


Paul Comtois: I will deal first with the suggested inability to operate. As the hon. member for Laurier knows, the Department of Transport has very strict safety regulations, and any company that cannot comply at all times with these safety regulations is not allowed to fly. Furthermore, Autair Helicopter Services Limited had two Bell helicopters on location with my department last season in support of survey parties. The survey season of those two parties was a complete success, which is partly accounted for by the efficient support given by the helicopters' operators. It is a fact recognized by officials of my department that when a contract is awarded to a new company the department usually receives far better service because the company goes all out to make a success of its operations.
As far as management ability is concerned, I might also point out to the hon. member that Bristol Aero Industries Limited, which are now owners of Spartan Air Services, have called upon the services of the president of Autair to manage the integrated services of Spartan's and Autair's helicopter services division. The choice of Mr. Connor, the president of Autair, certainly is a reflection of his ability. I might say that I have had no personal contact with Mr. Connor; I do not even know him. I am not here to defend Mr. Connor. The only matter that concerns my department is to be fair to everybody and to assure the best service.
I come now to the department's estimate of 100 hours flying per month per machine, another matter mentioned this morning by the hon. member for Laurier. The hon. member stated in the house on April 13 and again today that our estimate of 100 hours per month per machine flying time was a rather unlikely figure under extreme Arctic weather conditions, and that we had chosen the 100 hour figure to suit Autair's interests. I will simply say that our own departmental estimates, which were considered by treasury board officials some time before December, 1959, were based on a utilization of 100 hours per month per machine.
I should like the hon. member to listen to what I am saying now. To confirm this, may I say that an interim report on the operation of this project indicates that the three machines had accumulated 200.25 hours of flying in a 12-day period from the start of the operation up to and including the 30th of April. If my hon. friend wishes to make a few calculations he will see that if this rate of flying is maintained the basis of 100 hours per month per machine will have been greatly underestimated.
These are the facts as far as I know them, and I am making these statements and giving

Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys this information to the committee in all sincerity. In concluding I wish to thank all members who have made contributions to the discussion of my estimates. I am grateful for their constructive suggestions and the officials of my department will certainly take advantage of them.


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Chairman, I should like to make a few observations in connection with the reply which the minister has made to the charges and complaints made by myself in connection with this matter earlier during the session and again today. In replying the minister did not make any answer with respect to the request I made that he either investigate this matter or suggest to his colleague, the Minister of Transport, that an investigation should be held. In replying the minister said a great deal about safety regulations and the safe operations of Autair Helicopter.
I am telling the minister, without any fear of contradiction, that the air transport board turned these people down because of, amongst other things, their lack of safety. They had had six accidents in 1959 and they had four accidents in 1960, and their insurance was cancelled. Under those circumstances, how anyone can say that these people were conducting a safe operation, I do not know. Certainly the governmental body responsible for the operation of air carriers felt otherwise and they turned the application down. I am therefore not paying a great deal of attention to what the minister has said in this respect, and of course I say that to him respectfully.
Then the minister has made a great deal of the fact that Pacific Helicopter withdrew or eliminated themselves by saying that they did not possess any S-55 Sikorsky machines. Did the minister or his officers make any attempt to inquire whether Autair Helicopter had any S-55 Sikorsky machines in operation at the time? The minister said they had two. But if the minister looks at the evidence which was given at the hearing before the air transport board and which I have read through carefully he will find that it is clear from this evidence that they did not have any S-55 Sikorsky machines at the time. They may well have leased one or two of them afterwards as a pretext in order to comply with the terms of the contract, but certainly in the evidence which was given before the air transport board, and which I have gone over very carefully, there is not the slightest indication of that situation. I do not think it behooves the officers of the minister's department to determine

this matter; I think it is up to the air transport board. The committee knows what has transpired in so far as this matter is concerned.
Then the minister has stated that Bristol Aero Industries now own Spartan and that they have called on Mr. Connor to manage their operations.


Paul Comtois: I have been told that.


Lionel Chevrier: That is the point. I asked the Minister of Transport on the orders of the day for a reply to that question and the minister's reply to me was this: the hon. member for Laurier seems to know a great deal more about this matter than I do or than does the air transport board; let him find out from them. Now the minister rises in his place in the chamber and says that is the information he has. The official information from the Minister of Transport certainly is not indicative of that situation. It seems to me that before the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys can say that Bristol have availed themselves of the know-how of Mr. Connor we should at least have a statement from the air transport board because this sale or presumed sale or presumed taking over by Bristol of Autair must be approved by the air transport board. I should like to know whether it has been approved. I think the minister who comes forward and makes a statement such as that which he has made should at least tell us whether or not the air transport board has approved of this and whether or not Mr. Connor is now, because of his great experience, in charge. That will make all the difference in the world. I have grave doubts that such is the case. I cannot imagine in my own mind the air transport board on the one hand turning down Autair because they did not have financial responsibility and on the other hand saying "Put this man Connor in charge of the new operation".
Then something was said about a letter of intent. The minister has made a clear-cut statement that there was no letter of intent. I said originally that upon the information I had at the time there was a letter of intent. If the minister makes the statement that there is not one, I think it is the duty of an hon. member to accept the statement made by the minister in that respect. It may well be that the information I had was erroneous, although that was the information which I gave to the house at the time and which I had every reason to believe was accurate. However, I am not going to enter into a dispute with the minister in so far as that matter is concerned.
As the minister knows, there is more than one way of giving a letter of intent. As the minister knows, sometimes loose language is

used. It may well be that while I was not entirely accurate in the statement I made originally, in effect I am accurate. It may very well be that without any actual letter of intent, what was told to the Okanagan people by word of mouth was that, being the lowest tenderer, they would have the contract. That is certainly the information that was given to me, although not by the Okanagan people. As I said earlier, I have had no communication with any officer of the Okanagan company in connection with the matter.
However, there is unquestionably a doubt about this whole matter. Here a governmental body turns down this company because it is not responsible financially and I have here the order of the board turning it down. On appeal to the minister it is approved. Then the company gets this large contract. Notwithstanding what the minister has said it seems to me that there is on record enough to warrant an investigation. That is all I have asked for. In view of what I have said and in view of what I think raises certainly a grave doubt, I wonder whether the minister would not ask his colleague the Minister of Transport to carry on an investigation so that once and for all we would know whether these complaints and these charges are well founded.


Paul Comtois: All I can say about this matter of investigation is that I will discuss the matter with my colleague the Minister of Transport.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Before the minister leaves that point, may I say this. I think perhaps the minister should go a little bit further than that. If the Minister of Transport is not willing to have an investigation by the air transport board into the matter, will the minister himself give an undertaking that he will see that it is specifically referred to the public accounts committee at the next session of the house?


Paul Comtois: This is not my responsibility, Mr. Chairman, this is the responsibility of the Minister of Transport. When the minister is in the chamber with his estimates I think the matter might be raised again and discussed with him, not with me.


Mr. Fisher:: Has the minister any comment to make with regard to the department's views or its investigation into the question of offshore rights as promulgated by the regulations that were issued by the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources with regard to the north? I wonder whether the minister's department has a view or is making any study on this matter
24. 1960	5385
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys because it raises an issue that is likely to be of great interest to some of the provinces.


Paul Comtois: I understand that this matter is not under the responsibility of my department. However, I will simply do my best and discuss the matter with my colleague, the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I know the matter is not definitely under the department. I do not know that the regulations as issued by the minister's department are really under his department. I imagine they may be open to challenge in the courts on the part of the provinces because, as I said, under the regulations that came out the federal government assumes that it had these offshore rights. I think this matter still has to be settled. I was wondering what interest was being taken in the matter by the minister's department. After all, the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources is not a department that has been primarily interested, except in the Northwest Territories, in mineral resources of various kinds. I would just hope that we could learn from the minister at some time- and I will be quite wiling to do it by correspondence-what the views of his officials are on this matter and just what consultation took place before what I think is an outright statement of the federal position came out as contained in these regulations.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Chairman, in view of the fact that these regulations have been promulgated by the minister of northern affairs, I assume the minister also agrees with them as far as his department is concerned. Presumably the minister accepts the position laid down in these regulations, that the ownership of mineral resources at the bed of the sea under territorial waters, and indeed to the extent of the continental shelf, lies in the crown in the right of the federal government. I take it that is the position of the minister and his department on this matter.


Paul Comtois: Yes, Mr. Chairman, that is the position we take and we have always taken it. The regulations are established by the other department. They are studied and discussed by the officials before they are published.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Then I would like to make the statement that in the view of our party we think that is as it should be and that these offshore rights should be controlled by and belong to the federal government. However, I am quite aware of the fact that it is open to question and future argument.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Just one final question. Has any province made any representations to the
5388	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys minister on this issue, because it is not now an issue between the provinces and the federal government?


Mr, Comtois:: No representations have been made to me personally. It might have been the case with the department of northern affairs, I do not know, but not with my department.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
188.	Acquisition of common-use field survey and other equipment, $198,300.
(Translation):
Mr. Dumas:: Mr. Chairman, with regard to the camping equipment, will that equipment be used by the various teams the department will be sending in the field through the summer season?


Paul Comtois: It is equipment that is common for all teams we have across the country; it is kept in a pool, or stores if you prefer. Such equipment is distributed according to the needs of the teams in the various provinces.
(Text):


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
189.	Explosives Act administration, $95,418. (Translation) :
Armand Dumas: Mr. Chairman, has the chief inspector of that division been promoted to the post of chief of division? I see here that a salary of $10,500 has been provided for the chief of division, whereas, last year, we had no division chief. We had only a chief inspector.


Joseph-Roland Comtois: Yes, Mr. Chairman, there has been a promotion and he is now chief of division.
(Text) :


William Arnold Peters: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the minister what progress is being made in the problem I raised about nitrogen explosives. What work is the department doing to eliminate that type of explosive and adopt an explosive which would not create this nitrogen gas problem in the mining industry?


Paul Comtois: There is no question of replacing the explosives, but we did make tests to reduce the danger to the public. Does that answer the question?


William Arnold Peters: Every year miners die from the use of this type of explosive. It is not because they get involved in the blast, but they die because of the after effects. I am told there are other substances besides nitrogen which can be used in the manufacture of explosives which does not leave a deadly gas in working areas after they have been used. I understand other forms of material can be used in the mines which will not produce this nitrogen effect. If that is true, I suggest that the department of mines
IMr. Pearson.]

outlaw the use of nitrogen in dynamite and replace it with something which will fill the same need.


Paul Comtois: I might say that the use of explosives is not the responsibility of the federal government; it is the responsibility of the province concerned. The services we provide relating to safety are the making of tests in our laboratories which are designed to help advise the provinces of the danger of such and such explosives. But the responsibility of deciding on the kind of explosives to be used belongs to the provinces.


William Arnold Peters: I agree that is probably true but what happens is that the federal government agrees that dynamite must meet certain specific requirements, that it is properly labelled and has proper ingredients. I assume there are inspectors in all the large explosive factories who check the content of the explosives, but what I suggest is that part of the manufacture of explosives entails the use of a lethal material which in the past has killed many people and maimed quite a number of others.
This would appear to me to be the responsibility of the government. If we have a research department which can ascertain the method of making an explosive which does not have this lethal quality, then I think all we have to do to produce this type of powder is to pass a regulation that no nitrogen is to be used. It is true that once the powder is approved and used by the mines, the condition of which I am complaining does not come from the powder itself but from the explosion which takes place. This is the responsibility at the present time of the provincial government under their mine safety regulations. But the basic commodity which the government is approving as acceptable in the manufacture of dynamite is lethal, and if there is a substitute for it, as I understand there is, I think it is the federal government's responsibility to see that this new type of powder is the only powder which should be licensed for use underground or in closed quarters.
I see no reason why the government could not make this type of regulation. We make regulations that you cannot carry dynamite in certain types of trucks without certain protection being provided. I would suggest even more protection in this case because I have never heard of anyone getting into any trouble by improper handling of this material, throwing it around, or that sort of thing. However, a lot of people do get into trouble from this nitrogen gas problem.


Charles Edward Rea: Shall the item carry?


William Arnold Peters: No. I would like to know why the minister is reluctant to insist that his department develops this type of explosive which is not dangerous and why his department continues to licence companies to manufacture dynamite which I consider to be dangerous to health.


Paul Comtois: I can say this, that this explosive might be safe on the ground but unsafe or dangerous underground. They are two different situations with the same explosive. As I said, we make the tests and all the assays and make our report to the provinces. It is then up to them to forbid this or that explosive in their own regulations. We cannot interfere in that matter. We can have regulations about transportation, but as far as the use of explosives themselves is concerned, the responsibility belongs to the province concerned. If there is any other danger the Criminal Code would come into the picture and it would then be a matter of provincial responsibility. That is why we cannot interfere.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
190.	Mineral resources division, $321,524.
(Translation):
Armand Dumas: Mr. Chairman, would the hon. gentleman tell the committee if an officer in his department has been appointed to a post higher than chief of the mines branch? I find in the detailed estimates that a senior officer is mentioned for the first time.


Joseph-Roland Comtois: Mr. Chairman, would the hon. member be kind enough to repeat his question?


Armand Dumas: Yes, I want to know if a senior officer has been appointed above the chief of the mineral resources branch?


Joseph-Roland Comtois: No, Mr. Chairman.


Armand Dumas: A senior official has certainly been appointed. Is it the chief of the mines branch who has become a senior official? If so, what is his title?


Joseph-Roland Comtois: Mr. Chairman, the fact of it being mentioned in the estimates is no indication of a senior officer having actually been appointed. We are providing the amount for the purposes of reclassification, and not because of an additional appointment.


Armand Dumas: Consequently, there is only one official for the two posts now mentioned in the estimates?


Joseph-Roland Comtois: Yes, Mr. Chairman.
(Text):


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
191.	Assessment for membership in the PanAmerican institute of geography and history, $9,150.
24, 1960	5387
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys (Translation):
Armand Dumas: Mr. Chairman, I was wondering whether the hon. gentleman would give us some explanation with regard to an item entitled: "Assessment for membership in the Pan-American Institute of Geography and History"?
(Text):


Joseph-Roland Comtois: Yes, this is a new vote. I have a note prepared in English, and I know the hon. member will not mind my reading it, nor will the Leader of the Opposition.


Lester Bowles Pearson: I prefer French.


Joseph-Roland Comtois: Especially today. May I say that I congratulate the Leader of the Opposition on his very good French.


Lionel Chevrier: Hear, hear.


Joseph-Roland Comtois: We should have four or five St. Jean Baptiste days.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Three hundred and sixty five.


Joseph-Roland Comtois: The objectives of the institute are to bring about co-operation and collaboration among the American nations in the conduct of their cartographic, geographic and historical activities and to assist them in their scientific and cultural work in these fields. It serves as a medium for stimulating and co-ordinating these activities and for disseminating information relating to the progress being made within the respective countries.
Since the institute's major fields of activity are surveying and mapping, geography and natural resources, history and anthropology, three commissions are set up within the institute: the commission on cartography, that on geography, and the third on history. The institute comprises 20 member states, and Canada has participated as an observer in all meetings since 1943.
The work of the institute is scientific and technical in nature and does not in any way reflect political attitudes. Canada has since the formation of the institute participated as a welcomed non-member in the sections dealing with cartography and geography. This co-operation has been in the form of reports and advice in dealing with the technical aspects of mapping and geography. The participating member countries of the institute have welcomed this help and the secretariat has consistently urged that Canada become a member. I am pleased to report that Canada has now accepted the invitation to join as a full member of the institute.
5388	HOUSE OF COMMONS
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
When my colleague the Secretary of State for External Affairs reported on his trip to Latin America in this house, on May 30 last, he said:
We have very much in mind the need for closer co-operation with these western hemisphere neighbours of ours and steps will be taken toward that end.
Besides providing an opportunity for common discussion of matters relating to cartography, geography and history, our membership in the Pan-American institute of geography and history will assist toward this furthering of co-operation and good will between Canada and the Latin American countries.


Lester Bowles Pearson: May I congratulate the minister in taking over the field of Pan-American history for his department? May I ask him if this is just another way in which we are edging into the organization of American states?
(Translation):


Armand Dumas: Do the expenses mentioned here cover the cost of attending meetings?


Paul Comtois: No. The costs of government representation at conferences come under general administrative expenses.
I understand that the amount mentioned here for our participation is $9,150. That is the amount of the contribution.
(Text):


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Survey and mapping branch-
192.	Branch administration, including the expenses of the Canadian board on geographical names and a grant of $1,000 to the Canadian institute of surveying and photogrammetry, $172,933.
Lionel Chevrier: With regard to this item I have just one question to ask regarding the Canadian board on geographical names. Has the board finally adopted the names for the various lakes on the St. Lawrence seaway; I mean, have they been accepted by the St. Lawrence planning commission at Morrisburg, and are the names such as have been suggested by the Canadian geographical board now effective?


Paul Comtois: Yes, Mr. Chairman.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Topographical surveys-
195. Administration, operation and maintenance, $1,973,430.
Lionel Chevrier: On this item dealing with topographical surveys, would the minister give us some indication of the areas which are encompassed by these surveys and, next, would he tell the committee whether it is in this division that the summer students about

whom the hon. member for Villeneuve asked are being taken on? Would the minister give us some indication of how many students have been taken on this year as compared with former years?


Paul Comtois: There are 81 parties engaged in topographical, geodetic, boundary, hydrographic and legal surveys. It would take quite long to give a breakdown respecting all these parties. I know they are scattered about the whole country. There are some in every province and in the Yukon and in the Northwest Territories. Where there is no hydrographic work, parties are engaged on topographic, legal or boundary surveys.


Lionel Chevrier: This is a continuing job?


Paul Comtois: Yes. We are trying to increase the number every year because the demands are very strong from all quarters. This year there was an increase, as the hon. gentleman will have noticed.


Lionel Chevrier: Will the minister deal with the question of these students? I do not mean exclusively under this heading, but in the whole department. Perhaps I can get the figures.


Paul Comtois: Mr. Chairman, as was mentioned, in these parties we have 120 students who are called student assistants and 170 labourers in addition to nearly 1,000 officers and crews of the ships of the Canadian hydrographic service.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Canadian hydrographic service-
197.	Administration, operation and maintenance, including Canada's fee for membership in the international hydrographic bureau. $4,729,528.
Lionel Chevrier: Would the minister give the position in so far as the hydrographic vessels of his department are concerned? I know there is a new up to date vessel and I presume that is what the hon. gentleman had in mind when he gave the number of personnel on it. Is that vessel under the exclusive jurisdiction of his department? Is it operated by his department? How many other hydrographic vessels are there in operation? Does the department intend to build any more in the near future?


Paul Comtois: We have four ships on the east coast and three on the west coast plus three others that are chartered every season for the northern operation. I do not know if the hon. member refers to the new one for which we are calling tenders.


Lionel Chevrier: I asked first about the new vessel that is now in operation.


Paul Comtois: I think the hon. member refers to the Baffin.


Lionel Chevrier: Yes.


Paul Comtois: That is the newest we have. It has been in operation for three years.


Lionel Chevrier: Is it under the exclusive jurisdiction of the minister's department?


Paul Comtois: Yes.


Lionel Chevrier: What about new vessels?


Paul Comtois: The same thing applies. The new vessels will be under the jurisdiction of my department.


Lionel Chevrier: Are there any new vessels in contemplation? What is their position? Are there plans and specifications for new hydrographic vessels in the department?


Paul Comtois: Yes. There is the ship that will be called the Hudson for which a contract has recently been given.


Lionel Chevrier: To whom?


Paul Comtois: The hon. member must know about it. It has been reported in the press. The Minister of Defence Production and I issued a joint release. The contract has been given to the St. John's drydock. No decision has been taken up to now about the propelling system and the matter is under study by the committee comprising several officers from different departments. I must add that we are planning for three other ships to serve our program in the coming years.


Armand Dumas: Have tenders been called for the ships the department is planning to build?


Paul Comtois: No, not yet. The plans are not made.


Armand Dumas: Is the amount included in the estimates?


Paul Comtois: Oh, no. There may be a small amount just for the design, but nothing else.


Lionel Chevrier: Where will they be stationed?


Paul Comtois: One will surely be in Victoria on the west coast and the others on the east coast.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
198.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $6,256,995.
John Whitney Pickersgill: I understood the minister to say that a contract had recently been let for the building of a vessel in the St. John's drydock. Were tenders called?


Paul Comtois: Yes.


John Whitney Pickersgill: And they were the lowest tenderer?


Paul Comtois: Yes. Tenders were called three or four months ago. The subject has
24, I960	5389
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys been under study since that time. As the hon. member knows, it takes quite a long time to examine the details especially when the ships are to be equipped with laboratories and so forth. It is not an easy matter to examine the designs.


Lionel Chevrier: Is the minister sure that the vessels were not allocated by the Department of National Defence?


Paul Comtois: No, there was no allocation. The contract was let after regular tenders were called.


Armand Dumas: The amount of $1,389,300 appears in the details on page 271. Is there anything for the Bedford institute?


Paul Comtois: Yes, the sum of $1,389,300 is for the Bedford institute.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
199.	Legal surveys and aeronautical charts. $793,495.
John Russell Taylor: Mr. Chairman, the Vancouver board of trade and other boards have been making representations as to the feasibility of holding the winter Olympics in Canada. Some have been going to great expense in the preparation of various surveys. Would the minister say whether he might make available to them hydrographic maps and charts showing the contour of the area 90 miles north of Vancouver and 100 miles east and whether he would have information in his department as to winter temperature, snow conditions, et cetera, in the area which would be very helpful to the various boards conducting the surveys?


Paul Comtois: Mr. Chairman, I can assure the hon. member that my department will be very pleased to lend every possible support to this demand and will readily make available whatever information is in the department with respect to charts concerning contours and sites, information concerning temperatures and every detail of that nature. We will make as many copies available as the hon. member would like to have and will provide the information with pleasure.


Lionel Chevrier: Would the minister explain the purport of this vote which relates to legal surveys and aeronautical charts?


Paul Comtois: That is in connection with tenure lands, any lands owned by the federal government, including Indian reserves, national parks, etc. This service is given by our department. We have inspectors and surveyors to do that job and make reports for the departments concerned.


Lionel Chevrier: What about aeronautical surveys. Does the department make them for the Department of Transport?
5390	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys


Joseph-Roland Comtois: Yes, Mr. Chairman. I thought that the hon. gentleman would surely know that this was done by this department for the department of which he was formerly the minister and that the work continues to be done.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Map compilation and reproduction-
201. Administration, operation and maintenance, $1,-434,357.
Douglas Mason Fisher: I should like to know how much revenue comes into the department from the sale of maps? How much came in in the past year and in past years? If I understand it correctly, the department is taking steps in implicit terms to publicize those maps more widely. I would gather it is spending more money to bring those maps to the attention of possible buyers. What success has the department had in this endeavour?


Joseph-Roland Comtois: My officials are making some calculations and I shall give the answer later on.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Geological survey of Canada-
203. Administration, operation and maintenance including Canada's share of the cost of the geological liaison office, British commonwealth scientific conference, London, England, and $50,000 for grants in aid of geological research in Canadian universities, $3,769,929.
Douglas Mason Fisher: I have a few questions I wish to ask here. How many of the publications of geological survey pre-1935 are out of print now? May I put it this way: Is the department still continuing its policy of bringing into print again publications that have been out of print for some time?


Joseph-Roland Comtois: When the publication is an important one and is asked for we make a reprint and a new edition is put out.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I know you do. We are very pleased that you brought out a new edition of the Fort William-Port Arthur report several years ago. More and more results are taking place in the educational field in particular where libraries seem to be able to purchase sets and to be able to fill in sets, and this is what I am interested in. I think in the long run, not only because of the geological and historical interest, we are pretty safe in assuming that for the next 20 or 30 years and thereafter there will be a continuing, although I admit a very slow, need for the geological survey publications. I just wanted to be sure that wherever possible the department was filling the holes


where they occur and is seeing that the stock of publications which will be out of supply is kept up.


Paul Comtois: I am taking a note of that, Mr. Chairman.


Douglas Mason Fisher: How often does the national advisory committee on geological science meet? I notice that the travelling expenses this year are up slightly. I wonder whether this indicates more meetings or more trips?
I should like to have some kind of a review of this work. Is this committee still publishing its annual report that gives one a prospectus of development in geological science?


Paul Comtois: The members meet only once a year. This year they have decided that the meeting will be held on the west coast and accordingly the expenses will be higher. The hon. member should know that.
(Translation):


Armand Dumas: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the minister could indicate to the committee how many teams the geological survey has in the province of Quebec this season?
(Text):


Paul Comtois: There are two in the province of Quebec and four for New Quebec and Newfoundland together, the same area. We put in the item New Quebec and Newfoundland; the same thing applies to Quebec and New Brunswick in the same area. We also have a party there.
(Translation):


Armand Dumas: Now, with regard to the teams located in the Arctic, may I ask how many geologists are included in the group now there, and whether there are geologists working in that area?


Joseph-Roland Comtois: Does the hon. member refer to the polar continental shelf?


Armand Dumas: Yes.


Joseph-Roland Comtois: Two.


Armand Dumas: There are two geologists with the group at the moment?


Joseph-Roland Comtois: There are, in fact, two geologists in the group.
(Text):


Mr. Soulham:: Last year the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys was good enough to intimate to me in answer to a question, which I think comes under this item, that a survey was being made by a ground water team in Saskatchewan. I was wondering whether a report covering this survey was available, or how much progress has been made up to the present time?


Joseph-Roland Comtois: This information is not available yet, but I will see that the report is given to the hon. member.

May I give the information to the hon. member for Port Arthur about the sales of maps. In 1958-59 the amount was $112,774; in 1959-60 it was $122,166. We estimate that for the coming year the sales will be around $130,000.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Mines branch-
205. Administration, operation and maintenance, $3,798,711.
(Translation):
Armand Dumas: Mr. Chairman, I notice a substantial reduction in the number of scientific officers, grade 2 and grade 1. What are the reasons for it?


Joseph-Roland Comtois: Mr. Chairman, if the hon. member looks up the higher grades, he will see that there are more of them and that there has been reclassification among the lower grades. There has been no staff reduction, but only a reclassification. It is a reclassification with regard to those listed.


Armand Dumas: However, under this item there is a reduction of scientific personnel. There may be an over-all increase of 21; but, on the other hand, there is an increase of 53 for handymen, labourers, machinists, welders, electricians, motor mechanics, toolmakers, sheet-metal workers, carpenters, and labour foremen. There is an increase of 53, but there is, nevertheless, a reduction of 32 in the scientific personnel.


Paul Comtois: If the hon. member will look at item "Scientific Officers I", he will note that there are less of them, as the example I am giving. Does the hon. member realize, on the other hand, that in the item "Senior Scientific Officer I", there is an increase of 61 to 75? Therefore, nothing is changed as regards number.


Armand Dumas: However, in the next one there is a reduction of 70 to 56.


Paul Comtois: Mr. Chairman, there are, however, two increases: the first, from 19 to 23; the second, from 61 to 75. In both cases, it is a change in classification.


Armand Dumas: Mr. Chairman, I would not like to criticize the minister, and I do not intend to pursue the debate on the matter but, just the same, the total number of employees in that branch we are now considering, that is the mines branch, is 674, while it was only 653 last year. That actually shows an increase of 21; that is easy to see.
And now, on the same page, you show 53 new employees, for completely new jobs 79951-0-340
24, 1960	5391
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys which did not exist last year. Therefore, there are actually 32 employees less in the scientific services division.
(Text):


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Geographical branch-
207. Administration, operation and maintenance including a grant of $500 to the Canadian association of geographers and a grant of $3,500 to the University of British Columbia in aid of research in foreign geography, $399,833.
Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Chairman, I have a
couple of questions on this item. Would the minister explain to the house the grant of $500 to the Canadian association of geographers? What work are they undertaking in connection with the grant? Would he also explain the grant of $3,500 to the University of British Columbia in aid of research in foreign geography? What projects are under way for which these moneys are being voted?


Paul Comtois: This vote provides for the continuance of a grant to the Canadian association of geographers to assist that organization in the sponsorship of the Canadian committee of the international geographic union and in publishing a journal of geographic research in Canada. This journal is of great benefit to the work of the branch in that articles dealing with scientific matters written by members of the staff are published without charge and reprints are obtained at a minimum cost.
The grant to the University of British Columbia for research in foreign geography is $3,500. There is no change in the amount from last year. This item provides for the payment of a grant to the University of British Columbia for research on a specialized phase of foreign geography mutually agreed upon by the department, the privy council office and the university. This is part of a research project approved in principle by treasury board and on the recommendation of the special interdepartmental committee in accordance with the agreement with and recommendation of the University of British Columbia.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I suppose this is the best time for me to bring this matter to the attention of the minister. I refer to the operations of the geographical names board which all through the years has been a bit of a mystery to me. I will tell the committee why I raise the matter. A number of my constituents from all parties have made representations to me throughout the years suggesting that
5392	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys a mountain peak or some physical feature in our constituency should be named after the late W. K. Esling.


Henry Carwithen McQuillan: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I think we have dealt with this item previously.


Joseph-Roland Comtois: The matter to which the hon. member has referred is included in vote No. 192 and this item has been carried.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Chairman, perhaps I could just bring the matter to the attention of the minister. I mistakenly thought this was the item because it concerns the geographical branch. Representations have been made from time to time and yet nothing has been done. I remember on two occasions getting a letter saying I would understand the reasons why this could not be done. I have not been able to find out the reasons yet. I should like the minister to explain how this board works and who makes the decisions with respect to the naming of physical features in the provinces.
In British Columbia we have physical features in some cases named after very much less worthy persons than Mr. Esling. He came into our region carrying his printing press on his back in the early days of the mining and railroad construction camps. He was highly respected by everyone in the district as a pioneer, and if physical features are to be named by the geographical names board it is my opinion that consideration should be given to a distinguished person who rendered such lengthy service to the district both prior to his being a member of parliament and later.


Joseph-Roland Comtois: All I can say is that the board includes members from every province and decisions taken about names are made on the recommendation of the representative of the province concerned and after consultation and discussion. That is how they proceed. There is nothing else I can say.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Dominion coal board-
214. Administration and investigations of the dominion coal board, $119,400.
John Whitney Pickersgill: Would the minister bring us up to date on the situation with respect to the coal mines in Cape Breton?


Paul Comtois: You are asking for a rather broad statement.


John Whitney Pickersgill: The minister has broad shoulders.


Paul Comtois: Yes. I am tempted to say something else. I am not as broad as my shoulders.


Robert Jardine McCleave: Mr. Chairman, I wonder whether we could call it five o'clock and then return to the estimates in a few minutes on the basis of the arrangement reached between the parties.


Charles Edward Rea: Does the hon. member wish to call it five o'clock?


Paul Comtois: Perhaps it is just as well. We will deal with the dominion coal board later.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Later this day.


Charles Edward Rea: Order. It being five o'clock, in order to permit the house to proceed to the consideration of private and public bills, pursuant to section 3 of standing order 15 it is my duty to rise, report certain resolutions and request leave to sit again later this day or at the next sitting of the house as the case may be.
Progress reported.



PRIVATE BILLS

Mr. Speaker:: It being five o'clock, the house will proceed to the consideration of private and public bills, the former have precedence, pursuant to standing order 15, section 3.


Robert Jardine McCleave: Mr. Speaker, I think it has been agreed by all the parties that second reading will now be given to order No. 261 on today's order paper, Bill No. S-24, respecting Wabush Lake Railway Company Limited and Arnaud Railway Company, and that by agreement the house will then revert to the business interrupted at five o'clock.


Mr. Speaker:: Is the house agreed to take second reading of Bill No. S-24?


Lionel Chevrier: I suppose there will be some discussion on Bill No. S-24 in the usual manner.


Mr. Speaker:: Yes. Subject to debate being concluded, the house will then revert to the business interrupted at five o'clock. Is that agreed unanimously?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.



WABUSH LAKE RAILWAY COMPANY LIMITED AND ARNAUD RAILWAY COMPANY

Mr.  M. D. Morion@Davenport: the second reading of Bill No. S-24, respecting Wabush Lake Railway Company Limited and Arnaud Railway Company.
He said: I wish to give just a brief outline of this bill which deals with the Wabush Railway Company Limited, a Newfoundland railway company, and the Arnaud Railway Company, a Quebec railway company. These two companies are presently subject to the



I960

[Stage Direction]
laws and statutes of their respective province. The purpose of this bill is to bring these companies within the jurisdiction of this parliament and also to give the companies permission to construct a railway from the site of the Wabush Lake Railway Company and the Arnaud Railway Company, if necessary, prior to 1965. The purpose of the railway is to transport concentrate ore products to be produced by Wabush Iron Ore Company Limited from a mine site in Labrador to a point on the St. Lawrence near Seven Islands approximately 290 miles distant. The whole matter involves an investment of about $200 million, of which about $20 million has already been invested. It will cause direct employment for about 2,000 people and naturally it will indirectly result in further numbers being employed. It will also involve the development of a new town site in the location of the mining site. It is hoped that after the mine is in operation it will involve an output of about 10 million tons of low grade ore.
The purpose of this railway is to connect with a railway already developed and known as the Quebec North Shore and Labrador Railway and hence to transport the products of the mine down to the St. Lawrence. I understand some of the ore is to be delivered to Hamilton.
The arrangement is that the officials of the company will be present at the hearings of the committee which will deal with this bill and they will be able to answer any particular or technical questions that might arise. Those who are interested might go to the committee at that time. However, if hon. members of the house have some questions I might be able to answer them at this time. I understand the hon. member for Laurier has some questions.
Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, I rise at this time to deal with the bill which is now before the house, namely Bill No. S-24, respecting Wabush Lake Railway Company Limited and Arnaud Railway Company. I am pleased that the matter has come forward in this fashion, although I cannot say that I am particularly pleased about all of the actions that have gone on so far in connection with the bill. None the less, I think I would be remiss in my duty were I not to say immediately at the outset that those of us who are on this side of the house, will support the bill. We will support it because we think this is a good thing for Canada, and because we feel that the development on the north shore of the St. Lawrence river, partly in the province of Newfoundland and partly in the province 79951-0-3404
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of Quebec, will bring about, as the hon. member for Davenport (Mr. Morton) has said, an expenditure of some $200 million, $20 million of which have now been either expended or committed.
As I understand it, the project is to link the Quebec North Shore and Labrador Railway Company which now exists and which brings iron ore from Knob Lake or Schef-ferville down that company's railway to the St. Lawrence river at the port of Seven Islands. The object of this bill is to tie the two lines to the Quebec Iron Ore Railway Company, namely the Wabush Lake Railway Company at the northern end, which will make the link with the Labrador mine and the Arnaud Railway Company on or very close to the shores of the gulf of the St. Lawrence, which will make the link between the Quebec North Shore and Labrador Railway Company and a new port on the St. Lawrence. As the hon. member has said, the intention is to bring these railways under the jurisdiction of the parliament of Canada and the board of transport commissioners.
But in rising at this time I have another purpose; and I hope the hon. member and those on the other side of the house who have sponsored this bill will not begrudge me the occasion that I intend to take to say a word about, first, the tremendous development that has taken place all along the north shore of the St. Lawrence, thanks to the development of the St. Lawrence seaway. I think it can be said with accuracy and with truth that because of the transportation facilities which have been established and because of the reduction in transportation costs there is great industrial development from the lower St. Lawrence right up to the head of the lakes. I have been told-and I believe this to be true-that more money is being expended upon industrial development because of the opening of the seaway to the commerce of the world than upon the power and navigation facilities themselves.
There is no question in the world that the Quebec North Shore and Labrador Railway as well as the iron ore development would not have taken place had it not been for the decision of the former government-and I say this to the members of the government now-unanimously, because that attitude was adopted by both sides of the house-which was a good one for Canada. The Iron Ore Company of Canada has a development which I think runs into hundreds of millions of dollars. I may be mistaken in the amount but it is a tremendous one. It consists of the town-site at Schefferville, originally known as Knob Lake, a 360-mile railway built at private cost extending from Knob Lake to Seven Islands; a vast mining operation; and

Private Bills
extensive dock facilities. There has been the development of hangars, warehouses and the like at Seven Islands and it is really the project which broke the back of the opposition to the St. Lawrence seaway. Had it not been for the discovery of iron ore in the fields of Labrador and Quebec I do not think it would have been economically possible to convince the governments of both Canada and the United States that this project should be proceeded with.
The second thing I want to say, and I want to direct this particularly to the attention of those who sit in the government benches, is that it seems to me that the proper advantage is not being taken of this development by the government. It has repeatedly been said, and I believe it is true, that the seaway both from the power and the navigation point of view would aid the development of this country tremendously. That is a fact. But I think it could be helped a great deal more by the development of secondary industries, and I wonder whether the government should not be directing greater attention toward the development of secondary industry all along both shores of the St. Lawrence seaway.
I say this because I have given it a great deal of thought, and I am convinced that those of you who sit in the cabinet benches feel the same way about this matter. It was predicted that there would be, because of this iron ore development large movements in domestic traffic. That is, iron ore traffic that moves from the lower St. Lawrence up to the south shores of lake Ontario and lake Erie; and conversely grain traffic that moves from the head of the lakes to Montreal and other St. Lawrence ports.
That is taking place, but I think because of the development of the common market areas on the continent of Europe greater attention should be paid to the development of secondary industries. In the metropolitan area of Montreal there is a great deal of development going on now. I think that if the federal government in co-operation with the provincial governments and the planning departments of provincial governments was to give consideration to establishment of secondary industries which arise out of developments such as this bill will bring about that would be one way in which to reduce not so much the seasonal unemployment as the cyclical, the business and the technological unemployment which exists in this country at the present time.
Then there are one or two other matters which I would like to bring to the attention of the hon. member, and they are these. I do not think that the Iron Ore Company of

Canada, through its subsidiary Quebec North Shore and Labrador Railway Company, because of the agreements which it has made with the Wabush company, should be placed because of this bill in an inferior position to that in which it was placed prior to the existence of this bill should it be passed by the house. In the other place, in an attempt to meet that position, one amendment was made and I think that consideration should be given to another amendment which should be made to this bill, and that has to do with the rights covered by the agreement between Wabush and Iron Ore. I believe these have to do with rights on the northern end of the project, namely the 40 miles which extend from the Labrador mine to an area south of the Schefferville area. The Iron Ore Company have, I believe, certain perpetual rights because of that agreement.
The hon. member and the house probably know, or we will be told when the bill is brought before the committee, that it may well be that the Iron Ore Company will not be placed in the same position as it was heretofore because of this bill. However, I think this development is going to inure to the benefit of Canada. I believe that any project wherein $200 million is going to be spent for the development of Canadian resources is a good thing and should be approved by all parties in the house, subject to the amendment which I indicated a moment ago.
I think the hon. member should tell us who is the owner of the Wabush railway company and who is the owner of the Arnaud railway company, and whether Canadian Javelin still hold interests in either of those companies.


William Joseph Browne: Mr. Speaker, I am particularly interested in this bill and I am very gratified to learn that the members of the opposition are giving it their support.
I was a member for the Newfoundland legislature when arrangements were made between Canadian Javelin and the Newfoundland government and authority was then given to the Wabush Lake Railway Company Limited. The hon. member for Laurier (Mr. Chevrier) has described pretty accurately the position with regard to the railways concerned. The present railway, known as the Quebec North Shore and Labrador Railway Company runs from north to south from Seven Islands to Schefferville almost in a straight line, and the two railways concerned here run from east to west, one at a point about 224 miles from Seven Islands and the other one I believe about ten miles from Seven Islands. The lower line runs west along the gulf of St. Lawrence toward the new port

which is going to be created there. The other branch line which runs 40 miles from the main line west to lake Wabush and Carol lake will run to two new mines, one of which is almost ready for operation at Carol lake owned by the Timmins interests, the Hollinger interests and steel companies in the United States. It is hard to say who owns the other one, the lake Wabush development. It was promoted by the Canadian Javelin company and there are a number of steel companies in the United States associated with its development.
The hon. member for Laurier referred to the fact that the St. Lawrence seaway made this development-I do not think he said possible, but certainly made it much more promising than it would have been. It made it much more successful than it would have been because the mines were discovered many years before it was decided to build the seaway. But I believe that even if the seaway had not been built the mines would still have been developed. Certainly the construction of the St. Lawrence seaway has made it a very promising affair and has also given justification for the consideration of secondary industries which the hon. member advocated, some of which I believe have started already.


Lionel Chevrier: I think what I said was that were it not for the discovery of iron ore in Labrador and Quebec it would not have been possible to build the seaway; it was really the discovery of iron ore which overcame the opposition to the seaway.


William Joseph Browne: I did not
understand that that was the point which the hon. member was making. However, I accept his explanation.
I should like to give credit to the Iron Ore Company for the tremendous development which has been brought to Labrador and Quebec territories which adjoin Labrador. This has been a remarkable development and it is still only at the beginning. The ore at Schefferville and Knob Lake is of high quality. It is even beautiful to look at. Last year I was looking at some of the ore as it was taken out of the mines in Schefferville and Knob Lake, and I was surprised to find that this was so, as I believe, most other hon. members who saw it would be. The other ore at Lake Wabush is ore of a lower grade of iron content, but as a result of benefication processes it has been possible to produce a high grade product which will be shipped along this new railway to the main line and then down to the St. Lawrence.
Those of us who come from Newfoundland have been thinking of using the tremendous power of the Hamilton river in the
Private Bills
neighbourhood of Grand Falls, and it is certainly pleasant news that the Brinco people-the British Newfoundland Corporation-have already begun the construction of a power plant with an initial development of
120,000	horsepower. But when we remember that this great river is capable of developing over eight million horsepower we can see that there are further possibilities for the utilization of this great natural resource for the refining of ore in one way or another whether by the construction of blast furnaces or in other ways. This great source of power may also be used to bring power to sites along the St. Lawrence river where some of the secondary industries mentioned will be established.
I am certainly glad that this measure is going through and that it receives the approval of hon. members of the opposition. I am sure the sponsor of the bill will be pleased to answer any other questions in connection with it.


Douglas Mason Fisher: After surveying the record of the proceedings in the other place it is apparent that there is some kind of principle of government ownership involved in the problem of the Wabush railway. In fact, the railway as it exists now is not so much a railway as an extension of the Iron Ore Company's facilities and this will probably come to an end when the railway becomes geared to handle ore from the other company or perhaps from two other companies. This, in our view, is in many ways as it should be. While one could compliment the Iron Ore Company of Canada for its imagination in creating this line, the fact is that this is a major communication using the public land of Canada though in this case it is under provincial jurisdiction. Through this bill the whole enterprise as a transport medium comes within the orbit of the federal government and the board of transport commissioners. To that extent the people are given more control and a wider interest in the operation.
One can understand the reason why the Iron Ore Company of Canada was not too pleased about this particular development- I have taken that view of the company's attitude after reading the cross-examination- and I am certain that from a business point of view one might have great sympathy with the company's position. But at the moment unless we go forward with the bill as it is- and I cannot really see the value of making amendments-we should be placing the Wabush group and the other group associated with them in the branch line which is going to be constructed in a position where they would not have any bargaining strength as
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Private Bills
against the Iron Ore Company of Canada or the Quebec North Shore railway or whatever you want to call it. For that reason we feel the bill should be approved.
When the measure comes up for consideration in the committee I hope whoever is responsible will call the meetings at some time when some of the other committees of the house are not sitting, because I think this is a bill involving the kind of issue which deserves a good attendance at the committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines. We look forward to taking part in such committee meetings, and I do not expect we shall have any particular criticism to make. I hope that because so much of the discussion has already taken place in the other place we shall be able to forgo covering all the ground again, and I hope the sponsor of the bill will recommend to all members of the committee that they look at what took place in the other place, because the main points in the argument have already been set out there and there is no need for our proceedings to be repetitious.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Rea):: If the hon. member for Davenport speaks now he will close the debate.


Mr. M. D. Morton (Davenport):: First of all, I will answer the question asked by the hon. member for Laurier. The Canadian Javelin Company does not own any shares in the company which owns these two railways. The company which owns these two railways is the Wabush Iron Company Limited which holds all the shares in these two railway companies. With respect to the observation as to the contractual-


Lionel Chevrier: What is the position of Javelin vis-a-vis this company?


Murray Douglas Morton: The lands and the property are leased from Canadian Javelin who in turn have leased the property, as I understand it, from the Newfoundland government. Apparently this company was in there first and had certain leased rights from the Newfoundland government which they turned over to the Wabush Iron Company.


Lionel Chevrier: Will Javelin receive any royalties from this company?


Murray Douglas Morton: I have no information about that, but I will endeavour to have the answer ready for the hon. gentleman in the committee.
With respect to the other matter I think the crux of the difference of opinion between the Iron Ore Corporation and those who are proposing this bill was in order to obtain an equitable freight rate for the transportation of the ore out of the mine. If the rates

were obtained on the present set-up over the existing federal railway the Wabush Iron Company could not get credit in their rates for ore originating from their company's site but by incorporating these two railways with the present federal railway there will be created one transportation system as a result of which rates would be more equitable and the company would get a certain credit ratio on iron ore originating from their site. I think that is the main purpose of it. Otherwise all contractual and proprietary rates remain the same with no other disadvantage to the Iron Ore Corporation which originally developed the railway.
For the assistance of the hon. member for Port Arthur (Mr. Fisher) I might say it is the hope to have the committee meet on Tuesday next. I understand that all the officials and parties concerned with the bill are prepared to come on that day. I am not yet sure of the time.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Will the hon. member try to arrange it so the meeting will not conflict with the time of meeting of the combines committee because 15 or 30 hon. members of the combines committee are also members of the committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines.


Mr.  M. D. Morion@Davenport: We will do the best we can.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referred to the standing committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines.
[Stage Direction]
The house in committee of supply, Mr. Rea in the chair.

[Stage Direction]
B-Dominion coal board-
214. Administration and investigations of the dominion coal board. $119,400.
Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Chairman, when the business of the committee was interrupted there had been a question asked by the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate with reference to coal and I believe the minister was about to reply to it.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, before the minister replies I wish to apologize to him in advance. I have a very important engagement and will have to read the hon. gentleman's statement. I am somewhat embarrassed.


Lionel Chevrier: I will listen to it carefully.


Joseph-Roland Comtois: Mr. Chairman, I have a short statement to make regarding the dominion coal board estimates. Hon. members will agree, I think, that a long statement would

be inappropriate at this time while all of us are looking forward to the report of the royal commission on coal.
Let me deal first with policy. From the long range point of view the government's policy is simply to keep a sympathetic and open mind until the information, the conclusions and the recommendations of the Rand report are available for study.
But a short range policy is necessary. This is positive, clear, easily understood and practical. It is simply to improve the present situation wherever we can-and if the situation cannot be improved, then to maintain it without deterioration-until the Rand report is ready and long range policy can be formulated.
The dominion coal board estimates have been prepared from this policy background. It is essentially the same policy that reduced to normal proportions the huge stockpiles of coal at Sydney and Montreal, held unemployment in Cape Breton to a minimum when mass unemployment was threatened, restored a good measure of coal mining employment in the Crowsnest pass area of British Columbia and Alberta and is currently staving off suggested mine closures in Nova Scotia.
This is a good record by comparison with other countries which are experiencing crisis conditions in their coal industries. I understand that 25,000 miners are unemployed in one small European country. There are huge stockpiles of unsold coal at nearly all European coal mines. Last year while our Canadian stockpiles were being reduced to normal the undistributed stockpiles in the United Kingdom grew by 10 million tons and now contain 32 million tons of coal.
Any review of the current coal situation in Canada has to begin with the fact that coal consumption in this country is still declining under the competitive impact of oil and natural gas. The total Canadian consumption of coal in the fiscal year ended March 31, 1960 was 23,758,621 tons. This was a decrease of 1,650,000 tons by comparison with total consumption in the previous year. Viewed, however, against the more than four million ton drop in consumption which occurred in 1958-59, it can perhaps be regarded as a levelling off of the downward trend.
One item in the consumption figures deserves a historical footnote. I refer to the railway consumption of coal. Last year it was only 895,000 tons. The footnote for history is the fact that railway locomotives in this country once burned 13 million tons of coal annually.
Another item in the consumption figures is of interest. Coke and gas plants used
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys nearly one million more tons of coal last year than in the previous year, a reflection of the high level of activity in our steel industry.
On the production side, Canadian mines produced 10,870,000 tons of coal during the year ended March 31. This was a decrease of
300.000	tons by comparison with the previous year but again it was a reduction of the decline by comparison with the year before last. One has the feeling that, if it were not for the intense new competition of natural gas and residual oil, the worst period would now be over for coal; that the upswing, so long predicted by the economists, would be about to begin.
Nova Scotia coal production in 1959-60 was 162,500 tons greater than in 1958-59 and New Brunswick production was 88,700 tons greater. The other coal regions produced somewhat lower tonnages last year than the year before, with the greatest decrease,
356.000	tons, occurring in Saskatchewan.
The Saskatchewan decrease is probably
less a reflection of contracted demand than of disrupted production by a fire at one of the large mines in the Estevan district. As a matter of fact, Saskatchewan and New Brunswick are the two regions where the coal industry can be said to be in a definitely healthy condition. We have reports that Saskatchewan lignite has been able to hold its markets fairly successfully against low cost natural gas.
Little that is encouraging can be said about the household market for Alberta's subbituminous coal. Its use continues to decline as more and more homes throughout the prairie provinces are converted to oil and natural gas.
Here is a case where the hard fact must be faced that increased subventions or any other measure within federal jurisdiction would be powerless to maintain this sector of the Alberta industry. All but a few tons of the markets that are being lost are in the west itself. For some of Alberta's sub-bituminous coal there is a future in thermal electric power generation; but this is small comfort to the miners who have produced the coal for the prairie household market and now see employment diminishing. The coal for thermal power will be mined by strip methods.
I have already mentioned the Crowsnest pass area of Alberta and British Columbia. The greatly improved situation in that district is the result of increased export subvention assistance combined with the sustained efforts of the coal board and the producers to interest the Japanese steel industry in our western coking coals. About a year
5398	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys ago, you will remember, Mr. Chairman, a Canadian coal mission visited Japan with excellent results. During the 1959-60 fiscal year 263,541 tons of Alberta and British Columbia coal were exported to that country.
The coal board followed up its efforts of last year by arranging with the fuels and mining practise division of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys to carry out extensive research on blends of Japanese and Canadian coals. The board then borrowed two specialists from mines and technical surveys, one an expert on coke production, the other an expert on steel making, and sent them to Japan to hold discussions and exchange information with the technical experts of all the major Japanese steel companies. It was the first such technical mission ever sent by any of the numerous countries which sell coal to Japan. The Japanese have been genuinely appreciative of our attempt to determine scientifically how Canadian coals can best meet the special requirements of their growing steel industry. This year the Japanese importers have already placed firm orders for half a million tons of Canadian coal. These favourable export developments could not be fully foreseen when the main estimates were prepared. At a later date I shall present to you a supplementary estimate of the subvention funds needed for this additional tonnage.
The Nova Scotia situation is known to all of us. You are aware, Mr. Chairman, of what we have been doing to maintain the Nova Scotia industry and keep unemployment among the Cape Breton miners to a minimum while awaiting the report which, we hope, will point the way to fundamental solutions for the industry's problems.
Using the increased subvention funds which you approved last year, combined with the special contribution of the provincial government of Nova Scotia and combined also with a tremendous sales effort, much of it conducted personally by the chairman of the coal board, we squeezed a substantial tonnage of Nova Scotia coal into the Ontario market. We did this while the Ontario market has been so contracted that it has been buying approximately 4,500,000 tons less United States coal. We additionally succeeded in maintaining, to a considerable degree, the traditional Nova Scotia coal markets in the province of Quebec against the competition of natural gas, residual oil and surplus hydroelectric power.
The Nova Scotia government has asked us to continue this high emergency level of assistance during the 1960-61 fiscal year, again offering to make a contribution of up to $500,000 to the increased cost, and we have agreed to do so.


Nova Scotia subvention payments made during the last fiscal year totalled $13,518,398.11. This was $5 million more than had ever been paid out in Nova Scotia coal subventions in any previous year. However this total includes a small number of carried-over payments from the final weeks of the previous fiscal year. The amount paid out on the 2,414,786 tons of Nova Scotia coal that actually moved with subvention assistance between April 1, 1959 and March 31, 1960 was consequently approximately $12 million. The estimates which you have before you, Mr. Chairman, represent about the same degree of subvention assistance.
(Translation):


Mr. Deschalelels:: Mr. Chairman, at this stage in the discussion of estimates, I simply want to say a few words in connection with the coal mining industry. I am speaking as a layman, but I would like to express some general ideas and make one or two suggestions which, I think, are of some interest.
Coal is obviously one of our most versatile natural underground resources. It can be used in hundreds of ways other than a source of energy. It has been said that North America has about 40 per cent of all the coal in the world, and to give an idea of the importance of coal as a natural resource, experts state that, even if present production were doubled, we would have coal for perhaps a thousand years. That shows the abundance in this country of that recuperable wealth which can be used for years and years to come.
As the minister suggested a few moments ago, there is now heavy unemployment in the coal mining industry, and all experts and specialists in the matter agree that the next ten years will be the hardest. However, the prospects are that, in 15 or 20 years, large scale production will be resumed. Present conditions are due to several causes. The minister mentioned a few of them, like the dieselization program of our railway systems, which has certainly been a blow for our coal industry. We also may say today that, with regard to other sources of energy, prices have remained stable, while in the coal mining industry, prices have increased for several reasons.
On the other hand, Mr. Chairman, these last few years, we have found new sources of energy, such as natural gas, but we can already see that those sources are not as plentiful as coal and the time will come when we will just have to go back to mining coal

on a high scale. For that reason, I should like to make a suggestion to the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys (Mr. Comtois).
If we expect to have to go back to intensive coal mining say in ten years, why do we not start at once stockpiling coal, to help out that industry and provide jobs for miners? Why, for instance, should we not intensify present production and stockpile coal in various places that could extend, let us say, from eastern Canada to Montreal? I presume that, in case of war, several other sources of energy could become exhausted or rendered unusable; coal so stored would constitute a reserve that could be readily used. I would therefore ask the minister to consider the possibility of stockpiling coal at various places in Canada; that would allow us to accelerate production in our coal mines.
This I think, is a suggestion which deserves to be seriously considered since, I repeat, experts agree that coal production will cease to be a problem 10 or 15 years hence. However, the problem now exists, and I think that if the government seriously considered this suggestion, it would be much easier, during the next ten years, to stabilize that industry which promises to be one of our most important resources in coming years.
Now I have little to add to what I have already said. However, I would also ask the minister to consider raising the amount provided for research on coal uses. I have been reading various articles from the United States and elsewhere, dealing with new processes, permitting the use of coal for a number of purposes, indeed for hundreds of purposes.
I think we in Canada should constantly keep abreast of research being carried out in other countries, so as to be up-to-date and thus help the coal industry, which I think is one of the most important and most promising of our industries.
In closing my remarks, I should like to subscribe to what the minister said about the officers of his department, and particularly those who are in front of his desk. I want them to know we appreciate the magnificent job they are doing and we think that with their know-how, we should be able to give that industry a new lease on life as it cannot be allowed to remain in its present state of stagnation.
I think we should take bold steps to insure that this industry will recover its former activity, for let us not forget that within
79951-0-341
24, 1960	5399
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys 15 and even 20 years, we shall be back to the high level of production of recent years.
(Text):


Robert Muir: Mr. Chairman, I should like to take this opportunity to express appreciation to the minister and the government and, as the previous speaker said, to the chairman of the coal board and his assistant for their efforts during past years on behalf of the coal industry. We are facing a very serious problem, one that is causing great concern. Not only do I wish to express our appreciation but appreciation has also been expressed by the union leaders, the coal corporation and the provincial government of Nova Scotia.
The question has been gone into in many different ways and I hope the government and those I have mentioned will continue to exert every effort toward the day when we shall have full employment in our coal mines. Before I resume my seat, I know it is getting rather late but I wonder whether the minister is able to suggest when the report of Mr. Justice Rand will be released.


Joseph-Roland Comtois: Mr. Chairman, to answer in a few words what has been said by the hon. member for Maisonneuve-Rosemont, I would say that we are ready to study the suggestion of stockpiling. With respect to his other suggestion, we already have a fuels division in the mines branch of the department.
(Translation):
And in that division of the department we have experts continually carrying out research and experiments on the use of coal for other than the ordinary purposes, in an effort to discover new possibilities applicable both in industry and elsewhere and with a view to making a more extensive use of certain materials that we have.


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: May I ask the hon. gentleman a question? Do officials of his department attend certain meetings held in the United States or elsewhere in order to be made aware of new methods?


Paul Comtois: Certainly. Dr. Ignatieff, head of the fuels division, has taken part in every symposium or conference of that type not only in Canada and in the United States but in Europe. He is one of our best specialists, and we rely on him very much.
As to the inquiry of the member for Cape Breton North and Victoria-
5400	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys (Text) :
In answer to the question of the hon. member for Cape Breton North and Victoria, I cannot say definitely when the report will be ready but as far as I can foresee it will be next September.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Charles Edward Rea: That completes the estimates of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys. Shall I rise, report certain resolutions and request leave to sit again at the next sitting of the house?


Edmund Davie Fulton: Could you call item 151 and stand it?



DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

[Stage Direction]
151. Departmental administration including annual contribution of $200 to the conference of commissioners on uniformity of legislation in Canada, $872,484.
Item stands.
Resolutions adopted in committee of supply this day reported and concurred in.

Lionel Chevrier: May I ask whoever is leading the house whether there is any change in the order of business as announced last night?


Douglas Scott Harkness: Yes, Mr. Speaker. Last night the house leader outlined generally the business for next week, as found on page 5350 of Hansard. There are some slight changes in the order in which he gave these various items. The business for Monday will be as follows: First, the motion to extend the hours of sitting of the house, which was announced last night; second, second reading of Bill No. C-78, to amend the Judges Act; third, second reading of Bill No. C-76, to amend the Public Service Superannuation Act; fourth, the amendment to the Canada Shipping Act; and, fifth, the amendment to the Criminal Code, both of which were announced last night.
On Tuesday it is expected that the first order of business will be the resolution regarding the setting up of a department of forestry. The other items which I have announced will be taken in the order in which I have given them if they are not completed on Monday.


[Stage Direction]
At six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.

[Stage Direction]
The following answers, deposited with the Clerk of the house, are printed in the official report of debates pursuant to standing order 39:


Mr. Argue: 1.	Were any control measures set up to guard against possible substructure defects developing unnoticed in the Cornwall high level bridge (a) during steel erection; (b) after completion?
2.	If so, what were they?
3.	Were these control measures as set up followed out?
4.	Were reports made from time to time under these control measures?
5.	If so, what was the nature of the reports, by whom, and to whom were they made, and at what frequency?
Answer by: Hon. George H. Hees (Minister
of Transport):
The St. Lawrence seaway authority advises as follows:
1.	(a) Yes; (b) yes.
2.	The initial survey control system for substructure construction was expanded to cover the precise checking of possible movements of the piers.
3.	Yes.
4.	Yes.
5.	Result of observations, by resident engineer to division engineer and engineer of construction at approximately weekly intervals. In addition, the U.S. army corps of engineers and the superstructure contractor carried out precise surveys during the course of steel erection.




Mr. Argue: 1.	Were remedial methods applied to the substructure of the Cornwall high level bridge approved by both American and Canadian authorities, and accepted by the United States corps of engineers, Dr. Steinman and the St. Lawrence seaway authority, prior to starting such remedial work?
2.	If so, who approved in the case of each authority, and on what date?
3.	If not, what person or authority did not approve?
4.	Were remedial procedures approved on the completion of said work by both American and Canadian authorities as being satisfactory according to specifications and standards?
5.	If so, who approved for each authority, on what date, and on what results were such approval based?
Answer by: Hon. George H. Hees (Minister
of Transport):
The St. Lawrence seaway authority advises as follows:
79951-0-341i
Questions
1.	Yes, subject to verification of work then to be performed.
2.	R. M. Boynton for D. B. Steinman, December 13, 1957 and January 6, 1958; Col. L. W. Olmstead, U.S. army corps of engineers, January 6, 1958; M. W. Oettershagen, deputy administrator, Saint Lawrence Seaway Development Corporation, December 13, 1957 and January 6, 1958; A. G. Murphy, chief engineer, the St. Lawrence seaway authority, upon the recommendation of the late P. L. Pratley, December 13, 1957 and January 6, 1958.
3.	Answered by 1 and 2.
4.	Yes.
5.	Those named in answers to question 2, consequent to the favourable report by the special board of consultants appointed to investigate the matter.




Mr. Argue: 1.	Has the St. Lawrence seaway authority received a report of an analysis of the silt content of the piers of the substructure of the Cornwall high level bridge from an inspection company which had made such a test at the request of the contractor doing the remedial work on the substructure?
2.	If so, (a) on what date was the report made; (b) who was the official signing the report; (c) what was his position; (d) the name of the company employing him; (e) what were the findings of this independent report?
Answer by: Hon. George H. Hees (Minister
of Transport):
The St. Lawrence seaway authority advises as follows:
1.	Two independent analyses were made and reported upon at the request of the authority, not the contractor.
2.	(a), (b), (c), (d) and (e)-Report dated February 14, 1958, signed by J. E. Hurtubise, P. Eng., professor Ecole Polytechnique, stated that "most of the material in the 35 wash samples came from the till underlying the pier and not from the drill grindings".
Report dated February 21, 1958, signed by Henri Trochu, M.Sc., M.C.I.C., chemist, industrial and Commercial Laboratories Limited, concluded with the following statement: "Considering all above results, it is our opinion that the solids from the 37 samples are mostly till, and contain little if any of the concrete mixture prepared with the ingredients submitted."



CORNWALL HIGH LEVEL BRIDGE-GLACIAL TILL CONDITIONS

Mr. Argue: 1.	Did the St. Lawrence seaway authority receive a report or letter from the contractors working

Questions
on the substructure for the Cornwall high level bridge, regarding a difference they found re soil or glacial till conditions as compared to information supplied to them by the authority from previous test borings carried out by the United States corps of engineers or the St. Lawrence seaway authority?
2.	If so, what was the date of the communication, and what was its nature?
Answer by: Hon. George H. Hees (Minister
of Transport):
The St. Lawrence seaway authority advises as follows:
1.	Yes, but subsequent investigations and construction operations disclosed the fallacy of their allegations.
2.	By letter dated January 4, 1957, the contractor stated that in drilling and blasting on the sites of the main piers to loosen material so as to facilitate the driving of steel sheet pile cofferdams and the excavation therein, the material on the Canadian side was found to be dense, glacial till with all kinds of boulders, as expected, and they anticipated no trouble to get a satisfactory bearing for the concrete piers, but that on the United States side the material seemed much softer and did not require any blasting. They expressed the fear that they might need longer penetration of the sheet piling on the United States side and suggested that excavation be carried to a lesser depth than specified and that tubular pipes be driven, as bearing piles, to rock.
N.B.-Consequent to the receipt of this letter the authority had further borings made which confirmed the findings of the U.S. army corps of engineers that the material on the United State side comprised a dense glacial till as found on the Canadian side, except that it was overlain in part by relatively loose gravel and boulders. This indicated no need for a change in design.
By letter dated July 4, 1957, the contractor again made reference to the drilling and blasting of the previous December at which time they "found the Canadian side very hard, the United States side very soft" but that in driving their H-pile falsework in the spring they "could not possibly drive through or dig the Canadian side and the United States side". They were at a loss to explain the December conclusions and questioned if they had been properly located on the United States side. The main feature of this letter, however, was a complaint that the authority had restricted the drilling and pre-blasting on the site of the main piers to elevation 114, three feet above the elevation to which excavation was specified and in consequence of this they could not guarantee excavation to elevation 111 nor could they guarantee that the steel piling in the cofferdams would have enough penetration.
N.B.-Subsequent operations, following drilling and pre-blasting disclosed that the till on both the Canadian and United States sides was so dense that the consulting engineers agreed to the founding of the piers from one to two feet above the specified elevation 111. The nature of the material excavated from within the caissons was the same as that described on the contract plans.



CORNWALL HIGH LEVEL BRIDGE


Mr. Argue: 1.	Has a control system been set up at any time since July 1. 1957, by the St. Lawrence seaway authority for the purpose of checking, shifting, rocking or movement of piers and substructure of the Cornwall high level bridge?
2. If so, (a) on what date was it set up; (b) by whom was it authorized; (c) what were the terms of reference; (d) the date of each check; (e) the results of each check; (f) the name of each engineer who carried out the checks or surveys and what were their duties and qualifications?
Answer by: Hon. George H. Hees (Minister of
Transport):
The St. Lawrence seaway authority advises as follows:
1.	The initial survey control system for substructure construction was continued and expanded to cover the precise checking of possible movements of the piers.
2.	(a) Prior to commencement of construction.
(b)	Division engineer.
(c)	General instructions from engineer of construction applicable to all construction work.
(d)	Routine checks, as necessary, throughout the period of construction and until stability of the structure was assured.
(e)	Main piers:
A comparison of elevations taken on December 20, 1957, with elevations previously taken at four points on the top of easterly shaft of pier No. 12 indicates uneven settlement with a maximum differential of about one quarter inch between two diametrically opposite sides. This would suggest tilting of the shaft which would cause a horizontal movement of the top. As there was no apparent horizontal movement of the top of the pier, and as there has been no further evidence of settlement, it has been concluded that the first observations must have been in error. There was no further suggestion of movement in this shaft or any evidence of movement in other shafts.
Cable-bent pier No. 13 (Canadian side):
Initial movement observed to be: Top of west shaft-easterly one eighth inch and southerly one half inch. Top of east shaft- westerly one half inch, and southerly one inch. There has been no vertical settlement or

further horizontal movement. It is believed that the displacements were caused by abnormal forces resulting from the temporary support of construction equipment used in placing parts of the superstructure.
North abutment (Canadian side):
Initial movement observed to be one and one half inch southerly, at the top. There has been no vertical settlement or further horizontal movement.
(f)	The checks were made by a qualified instrument man under the personal supervision of G. S. Jardine, P.Eng., resident engineer or M. A. Hanson, P.Eng., division engineer.




Mr. Argue: 1.	Did the initial design lor the Cornwall high level bridge by Dr. Steinman call for piers to go to bedrock?
2.	If so, was the design in this respect changed?
3.	For what reason, on what date, and who initiated the design change?
4.	Were any substructure design changes approved by or on behalf of the St. Lawrence seaway authority?
5.	If so, what were they, on what date were they made, by whom, and what were the names of the engineers consulted re the design change in each case?
Answer by: Hon. George H. Hees (Minister of
Transport):
The St. Lawrence seaway authority advises as follows:
1.	The "Preliminary Engineering Report" by D. B. Steinman, dated July 12, 1956, prepared prior to obtaining complete information on foundation conditions, contemplated the founding of the main piers on rock but the D. B. Steinman "Design Memorandum", dated August 17, 1956, contains the following notation: "River Piers: Due to the compactness of the glacial till overlaying rock and the difficulty of driving steel sheeting to substantial depths due to such compactness and the presence of cobbles and boulders, the two main piers in the river will be founded at elevation III., ten feet below proposed channel dredged depth, instead of carried down to rock-"
2.	and 3. Answered by 1.
4.	Yes.
5.	Seven approach girders and their piers at the northern end were eliminated and replaced by the extension, in a southerly direction, of the embankment fill. The northern abutment was changed from a U-type gravity structure to a buried pier. These changes were made by D. B. Steinman, upon instructions from A. G. Murphy following consultation with P. L. Pratley.
Questions




Mr. Argue: 1.	Were all specifications contained in the contract agreement relative to the substructure of the Cornwall high level bridge strictly adhered to?
2.	If not, what variations were permitted, for what reason, and by whom were variations approved in each case?
3.	Did any defects show up at any locations where the original specifications were not followed?
4.	If so, what were they, at what locations, on what date did they occur?
5.	Were remedial measures undertaken? If so, what were they, on what dates were they begun, and who decided on what measures to take in each case?
6.	Did any defects or faults show up (a) during the remedial work; (b) subsequent to the remedial work, at locations where such work was conducted?
7.	If so, (a) what was the nature of such faults and defects; (b) what further corrective measures were taken; (c) by whom were they ordered, and on what date; (d) by whom were the final results approved?
Answer by: Hon. George H. Hees (Minister
of Transport):
The St. Lawrence seaway authority advises as follows:
1.	No.
2.	The specified use of an air lift as an aid in cleaning all loose and soft material from the bottom of the excavation within each caisson of the main river piers was waived by P. L. Pratley, consulting engineer, presumably because he was satisfied that the caissons had been satisfactorily cleaned by other means.
3.	Yes.
4.	Test borings in each concrete shaft of the main piers disclosed the fact that at the plane of contact with the glacial till foundation there existed a shallow layer of crushed stone aggregate the interstices of which contained fine silt and sand instead of intrusive grout as intended.
5.	Yes. Remedial measures, commenced early in December 1957, comprised the drilling of numerous holes through the concrete from top to bottom of each cylindrical shaft; the washing of fine silt and sand from the interestices in the stone; and the filling of the interstices with cement grout introduced through the cored holes under pressure. The remedial measures, initially proposed by P. L. Pratley, were approved by R. M. Boynton for D. B. Steinman and decided upon by the seaway authority and the U.S. army corps of engineers.
6.	(a) Yes; (b) no.
7.	(a) During the washing of the downstream shaft of pier 12 on December 19, 1957, the steel sheet piling of the caisson separated from the concrete of the shaft; (b) each of the four cylindrical shafts was encircled with

Questions
a 15-inch thick collar or sleeve ot concrete placed within a shell of straight web steel sheet piling; (c) chief engineer upon approval by consulting engineers, December 23, 1957; (d) special board of consultants.



CORNWALL HIGH LEVEL BRIDGE-SUBSTRUCTURE FIELD NOTES

Mr. Argue: 1.	Were Held notes kept by the resident, field or assistant engineer at Cornwall, in relation to the construction of the substructure of the south channel high level bridge?
2.	If so, (a) to whom were they submitted; (b) on what dates; (c) by whom; (d) what was the nature of each?
Answer by: Hon. George H. Hees (Minister
of Transport):
The St. Lawrence seaway authority advises as follows:
1.	Yes.
2.	(a) (b) (c) and (d). In compliance with specific instructions relating to all construction contracts, routine notes on construction activities were submitted by field engineers to the resident engineer, daily; by the resident engineer to the division engineer, weekly; and by the division engineer to the engineer of construction, monthly. Unusual events of importance immediately were reported through the chain of responsibility to the chief engineer.

[The following items were passed in committee of supply]:
A-Department-
Administration services-
Departmental administration-
187.	Administration, operation and maintenance, $860,962.
188.	Acquisition of common-use field survey and other equipment, $198,300.
189.	Explosives Act administration, $95,418.
190.	Mineral resources division, $321,524.
191.	Assessment for membership in the PanAmerican institute of geography and history, $9,150.
Surveys and mapping branch-
192.	Branch administration, including the expenses of the Canadian board on geographical names and a grant of $1,000 to the Canadian institute of surveying and photogrammetry, $172,933.
193.	Geodetic survey of Canada, $862,248.
194.	International boundary commission including authority to make recoverable advances in amounts not exceeding in the aggregate the amount of the share of the United States government of the cost of binding annual reports and maintaining boundary range lights, $82,839.
Topographical surveys-
195.	Administration, operation and maintenance, $1,973,430.
196.	Construction or acquisition of equipment, $92,000.
Canadian hydrographic service-
197.	Administration, operation and maintenance, including Canada's fee for membership in the international hydrographic bureau, $4,729,528.
198.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $6,256,995.
199.	Legal surveys and aeronautical charts, $793,495.
200.	Provincial and territorial boundary surveys including authority to make recoverable advances in amounts not exceeding in the aggregate the amounts of the shares of the provincial governments of the costs of the surveys, $30,500.
Map compilation and reproduction-
201.	Administration, operation and maintenance, $1,484,957.
202.	Construction or acquisition of equipment, $166,700.
Geological survey of Canada-
203.	Administration, operation and maintenance including Canada's share of the cost of the geological liaison office, British commonwealth scientific conference, London, England, and $50,000 for grants in aid of geological research in Canadian universities, $3,769,929.
Supply-Items Passed
204.	Construction or acquisition of equipment, $217,490.
Mines branch-
205.	Administration, operation and maintenance, $3,798,711.
206.	Construction or acquisition of equipment, $267,352.
Geographical branch-
207.	Administration, operation and maintenance including a grant of $500 to the Canadian association of geographers and a grant of $3,500 to the university of British Columbia in aid of research in foreign geography, $399,833.
Dominion observatories-
Dominion observatory, Ottawa and field stations-
208.	Administration, operation and maintenance including the expenses of the national committee for Canada of the international astronomical union, Canada's fee for membership in the international astronomical union, and a grant of $3,500 to the royal astronomical society of Canada. $1,238,231.
209.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $429,500.
Dominion astrophysical observatory, Victoria, B.C.-
210.	Administration, operation and maintenance, $204,952.
211.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $170,025.
General-
212.	Purchases of air photography and the expenses of the interdepartmental committee on air surveys. $1,550,000.
213.	Polar continental shelf project, $1,134,400.
B-Dominion coal board-
214.	Administration and investigations of the dominion coal board, $119,400.
215.	Payments in connection with the movements of coal under conditions prescribed by the governor in council, $14,204,950.
216.	Subventions in respect of eastern coal under agreements entered into pursuant to the Atlantic Provinces Power Development Act, $1,700,000.
A-Department-
Mines branch-
530.	Construction or acquisition of equipment- to extend the purposes of vote 206 of the main estimates, 1960-61, to include the construction or acquisition of buildings and works and to provide a further amount of, $30,000.
B-Dominion coal board-
531.	Payments in connection with the movements of coal under conditions prescribed by the governor in council-further amount required, $883,000.

Monday, June 27, 1960

(Translation):