1960-03-16

[Stage Direction]
Second report of standing committee on privileges and elections-Mr. Macquarrie.


Mr. Pickersgill: 1.	Has there been an increase in social security payments between the fiscal years 1956-57 and 1958-59 and, if so, how much?
2.	How much of such increase is attributable to
(a)	an increase in the number of recipients; (b) legislation enacted before June 21, 1957; (c) legislation enacted since June 21, 1957?
3.	Is any portion of this amount for the federal share of hospital insurance and, if so, how much?


Hon. Leon Balcer (Acting Secretary of State):: Mr. Speaker, this question should stand as an order for return, because the information to answer it has to come from several departments.


Mr. Speaker:: Stands as an order for return.



OPIUM AND NARCOTIC DRUGS


Mr. Mcllraiih: 1.	Did the federal government refund any money estreated from bondsmen for persons charged under the Opium and Narcotic Drugs Act in the period since January 1, 1958?
2.	If so, to whom were any such refunds made and in connection with what charges?
3.	In any such cases, had orders of forfeiture been made by the courts? If so, what particular courts were involved?
4.	Were any orders-in-council passed in connection with any such refunds?


Hon. J. W. Monteith (Minister of National Health and Welfare):: The answer to the first question is yes, in one case. Bail of $20,000 was refunded.
The answer to question 2 is that the refund was made to Mr. J. D. Rosse, barrister, 409 Ford building, Vancouver, on behalf of Mrs. Anna Badman. This was in connection with Louis Bronson of Vancouver, who about May 5, 1956 was arrested and charged under section 4 (3) (b) of the Opium and Narcotic Drug Act.
The answer to question 3 is, an order of forfeiture by R. A. Sargent, C.C.J., was handed down on July 18, 1956 in the Vancouver county court. It was appealed and the appeal quashed on November 16, 1956.
The answer to question No. 4 is, as recommended by the Solicitor General, an extension of the royal prerogative of mercy was signed by the deputy governor general in the absence of the Governor General, on July 3, 1959.



QUESTIONS ASKED PERSONS LEAVING CANADA

['The answers are as follows:\n1.\tThe total number of persons registered for employment at national employment service offices on February 25, 1960-that is unplaced applicants-the latest date for which data are available, was 805,195.\n2.\tThe total number of persons claiming unemployment insurance benefits on January 31, 1960, the latest date for which data are available, was 782,542.']
Hon. George C. Nowlan (Minister of National Revenue):: This was a question asked jointly of the department of immigration and the Department of National Revenue. The Minister of Citizenship and Immigration answered it last week in so far as her department was concerned, but I was unavoidably absent that afternoon. The answer for the Department of National Revenue is exactly the same as that given by the Department of Citizenship and Immigration.
The answer to question No. 1 is, neither this question nor any other questions are asked by Canadian customs officers of persons leaving Canada.
2.	Answered in 1 above.
3.	Answered in 1 above.
4.	Answered in 1 above.
PENSIONS TO FORMER M.P.'s


["This was a question asked jointly of the department of immigration and the Department of National Revenue. The Minister of Citizenship and Immigration answered it last week in so far as her department was concerned, but I was unavoidably absent that afternoon. The answer for the Department of National Revenue is exactly the same as that given by the Department of Citizenship and Immigration.\nThe answer to question No. 1 is, neither this question nor any other questions are asked by Canadian customs officers of persons leaving Canada.\n2.\tAnswered in 1 above.\n3.\tAnswered in 1 above.\n4.\tAnswered in 1 above.\nPENSIONS TO FORMER M.P.'s"]
Hon. Donald M. Fleming (Minister of Finance):: The answer to question No. 1 is yes. The answer to question No. 2 consists of a list of former members of this house with the amount of pension in each case. This list extends to two and one half pages.

Starred Questions
I wonder whether it would be the wish of the house that it be placed on the record of Hansard at this point without being read?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Mr. Speaker:: Has the minister leave to place the remainder of the answer on Hansardl


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
lEditor's note: The answer referred to is as follows:1
1.	Yes.
2.	(a)	(b)
Name	Amount of pension
Arsenault, Bona	 $2,720.25
Ashbourne, T. G. W	 2,001.38
Aylesworth, W. R	 2,930.63
Beaudoin, Hon. L. R	 2,901.37
Beaudry, R	 2,872.12
Bertrand, L	 3,000.00
Black, D. E	 3,000.00
Black, Percy C	 2,274.00
Blackmore, J. H	 3,000.00
Blanchette, J. A	 3,000.00
Breton, M	 1,620.00
Brisson, L	 1,995.75
Bryce, W. S	 2,290.12
Byrne, J. A	 2,001.37
Campbell, A. M	 1,140.00
Cannon, C. A. D	 1,999.12
Castleden, George H	 2,732.62
Cauchon, R	 2,001.37
Clark, S. M	 3,000.00
Claxton, Hon. Brooke	 3,000.00
Cleaver, Hughes	 3,000.00
Cloutier, A	 3,000.00
Coldwell, M. J	 2,340.00
Cruickshank, G. A	 2,934.00
Dechene, J. M	 2,340.00
Demers, L	 2,178.00
Deslieres, J. L	 1,183.50
Dickey, J. H	 2,181.37
Dupuis, Hector	 1,621.12
Ferguson, J. H	 2,721.38
Fontaine, J	 2,719.12
Gagnon, P. E	 2,721.37
Gardiner, Right Hon. J. G		2,340.00
Garson, Hon. S. S	 2,001.37
Gauthier, A	 1,999.12
Gauthier, J. L	 2,901.37
Gauthier, Pierre	 3,000.00
Gillis, C	 3,000.00
Gingras, E. 0	 1,341.37
Gingues, M	 3,000.00
Gourd, D	   2,059.12
Gregg, Hon. M. F	 2,181.37
Hansell, E. G	 3,000.00
Harris, Hon. W. E	 3,000.00
Harrison, J. H	 2,001.37
Henderson, W. J	 2,001.37

Name	Amount
Howe, Right Hon. C. D	
Huffman, E. B	
Johnston, C. E	
Jones, O. L	
Jutras, Rene N	
Kirk, J. R	
Kirk, T. A. M	
Knight, R. R	
Knowles, S. H	
Lacroix, W	
Lafontaine, J	
Langlois, J. G. L	
Langlois, J	
Lapointe, Hon. H	
Lesage, Hon. Jean	
Little, Walter	
Low, S. E	
Maclnnis, Angus	
MacKenzie, H. A	
MacNaught, J. W	
Maltais, A	
McCann, Hon. J. J	
McCubbin, Robert	
McCulloch, H. B	
McCullough, E. G	
McDonald, W. K	
Mclvor, D	
Monette, M	
Nicholson, A. M	
Parent, C	
Pinard, Hon. R	
Poulin, R	
Proudfoot, J. H	
Purdy, G. T	
Quelch, Victor	
Roberge, L. E	
Rochefort, J. I	
St. Laurent, Right Hon. L. S.
Schneider, N. C	
Shaw, F. D	
Simmons, J. A	
Sinclair, Hon. J	
Smith, J. E	
Stewart, A. M	
Stick, L. T	
Stuart, A. W	
Studer, I	
Thatcher, W. R	
Thomas, R	
Tucker, W. A	
Tustin, G. J	
Valois, P	
Viau, Fernand	
Ward, W. J	
Weir, W. G	
Whitman, F. P	
Winkler, H. W	
Winters, Hon. R. H	
Wright, P. E	
Wylie, W. D	
Zaplitny, F. S	
of pension $2,340.00
2.000.	25
3.000.	00 1,352.64
3.000.	00
3.000.	00
2.001.37
2.721.37
3.000.	00
3.000.	00
2.340.00
2.721.37
2.001.38
3.000.	00
2.901.37
2.340.00
2.901.37
2.340.00
2.340.00
2.721.37
2.001.37
2.340.00
3.000.	00
2.340.00
1.797.37
2.721.38
2.340.00
1.859.62
2.707.87
3.000.	00 2,720.25
2.000.	25
2.001.37
1.712.62
3.000.	00
2.001.37
2.001.38
2.340.00 522.37
3.000.	00 1,872.51
3.000.	00
2.721.38 2,899.12
2.000.	25
2.901.37
1.996.87 2,704.50
2.001.37
3.000.	00
2.340.00
2.001.38
2.721.37
2.340.00
3.000.	00
2.934.00
3.000.	00
2.721.37
2.934.00
2.721.38
1.800.00



Mr. Robichaud: What was the amount to the credit of the unemployment insurance fund as of the last day of February, 1957, 1958, 1959 and 1960?


Hon. Michael Starr (Minister of Labour):: On February 28, 1957, $897,942,373.80; February 28, 1958, $794,547,091.77; February 28, 1959, $547,399,504.48; February 29, 1960, $408,141,026.81.


EMPLOYMENT REGISTRATIONS-UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE BENEFITS
Mr. Robichaud: 1.	What was the total number of registrations at national employment service offices as of the most recent date for which such data is available?
2.	What was the number of persons claiming unemployment insurance benefits as of the most recent date for which such data is available?


Michael Starr: The answers are as follows:
1.	The total number of persons registered for employment at national employment service offices on February 25, 1960-that is unplaced applicants-the latest date for which data are available, was 805,195.
2.	The total number of persons claiming unemployment insurance benefits on January 31, 1960, the latest date for which data are available, was 782,542.



BUREAU OF DELINQUENT ACCOUNTS


Mr. Badanai: 1.	Has the bureau of delinquent accounts, 319 Transportation building, Ottawa, been accorded the privilege of using postal meters by the post office department?
2.	If so, has the department made any investigation with respect to this matter?


Hon. W. M. Hamilton (Postmaster General):: The answers are as follows:
1.	No. However, a postage meter machine was used by Office Services Unlimited, 48 Rideau street, Ottawa, Ontario, the street address of the Transportation building, to prepay mail of the bureau of delinquent accounts. The use of this meter machine was discontinued by Office Services Unlimited on February 11, 1960, and the meter was withdrawn from service.
2.	Yes.



UNEMPLOYMENT ASSISTANCE


Mr. Roberge: 1.	Was there an agreement signed between the government of Canada and the government of the province of Quebec under the provisions of the Unemployment Assistance Act?
2.	If so, on what date was the agreement signed and by whom?
Starred. Questions
3.	What amount has been paid from the time the agreement was entered into up to January 31, 1959 or the latest date for which figures are available?


Jay Waldo Monteith: The answers are as follows:
1.	Yes.
2.	The agreement was signed on July 1, 1959 by myself as Minister of National Health and Welfare and Hon. J. M. Paul Sauve, minister of social welfare for the province of Quebec.
3.	At the end of January, 1960 the province of Quebec submitted claims covering a period of 15 months and amounting in total to $8,488,747.48. These claims are now being examined and processed for payment.



H.M.C.S. &quot;CORNWALLIS&quot;  LAY-OFFS

Mr. Robichaud: 1.	Have any lay-offs taken place at H.M.C.S. Cornwallis since November 1, 1959?
2.	If so, what classification of employees was affected and how many in each class?
3.	Have any representations been made in connection with these lay-offs? If so, from whom and what reply was given?


Hon. G. R. Pearkes (Minister of National Defence):: Will the hon. gentleman allow this question to stand until the Associate Minister of National Defence (Mr. Sevigny), who has been dealing with this subject particularly, is able to be here? He is unable to be in the house today.


Mr. Robichaud:: Yes.


Mr. Speaker:: Stands.
Question stands.



NOVA SCOTIA REPRESENTATIONS ON MONETARY POLICY

Mr. Benidickson: 1.	Has the premier of Nova Scotia made representations to the federal government on the subject of a more flexible monetary policy for the Atlantic provinces?
2.	If so, when were such representations made, what was their nature?
3.	Did the federal government make a reply to any such representations?
4.	If so, on what date and what was the nature of the reply?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Something will depend, of course, on what form of representations the hon. gentleman has in mind in asking the first question. The matter has been discussed by the premier of Nova Scotia with ministers from time to time. I am not aware of any written submission on the subject. The answers that have been given on behalf of the federal government were in keeping with the answer I made in the house two days ago, and

Starred Questions
those views have been expressed in the course of the discussions to which I referred.



POSTAL CONTRACTS, BARTLETT'S HARBOUR, NFLD.

Mr. Batten: 1.	Has a contract been awarded to transfer mail from the Canadian national railways coastal steamer to the wharf at Bartlett's harbour, St. Barbe, Newfoundland (summer service) ?
2.	If so, to whom has the contract been awarded and for what amount?
3.	Has a contract been awarded to transfer mail from the wharf at Bartlett's harbour to the post office at Bartlett's harbour (summer service)?
4.	If so, to whom has the contract been awarded and for what amount?


William McLean Hamilton: The answers are as follows:
1.	No. The conveyance of mails from ship to shore at Bartlett's Harbour is performed under an arrangement with the Canadian National Railways.
2.	The answer to question No. 2 is contained in the answer to question No. 1.
3.	No. This service is performed under temporary arrangement by Mr. Alonzo Caines, at the rate of $1 a trip approximately every ten days.
4.	Question No. 4 is answered by the answer to question No. 3.



AUTAIR HELICOPTER SERVICE, MONTREAL   LICENCE

Mr. Chevrier: 1.	Has Autair Helicopter Service Limited, Montreal, been given a licence from the air transport board for the operation of non-schedule commercial air services? If so, on what date?
2.	Was any investigation of this firm made by the air transport board before the licence was granted?


Hon. George H. Hees (Minister of Transport):: Mr. Speaker, the answer to part 1 of this question is that three licences were granted to the company by: decision serial No. 1111 dated July 18, 1958 as amended by board order No. 2285 dated September 1, 1959; and decision serial No. 1198 dated November 17, 1958. In this case there were two licences issued.
The answer to part 2 of the question is, yes.



AUTAIR HELICOPTER SERVICE, MONTREAL   CONTRACT

Mr. Chevrier: 1.	Has Autair Helicopter Service Limited, Montreal, a contract or contracts from the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys?
2.	If so, were tenders called and who were the other tenderers?
3.	Did Autair submit the lowest tender?
Hon. Paul Comtois (Minister of Mines and
Technical Surveys): Mr. Speaker, the answer to part 1 is that the department is in the
[Mr. Fleming (Eglinton).l
final stage of negotiation of one contract with Autair Helicopter Services Limited for three helicopters for 1960 operations in northern Canada.
The answer to part 2 is, tenders are not called as rates are filed with the air transport board. Spartan Air Services Limited, Renting Helicopters Limited, Okanagan Helicopters Limited, Pacific Helicopters Limited and Autair Helicopter Services Limited were considered for this contract.
The answer to part 3: an analysis of the applicable tariff rates filed with the air transport board indicated that Autair Helicopter Services Limited would have the lowest estimated cost for the expected utilization.
VOTE no. 116

Question No. 76-Mr. McWilliam:
What amount remained uncommitted in vote No. 116 for the fiscal year ending, March 31, 1960, as of (a) January 15, 1959;	(b) March 1,
1960?


Donald Methuen Fleming: The answer to part (a) is $485,460.01. The answer to part (b) is $107,524.01.



HELICOPTER SERVICE FOR ARCTIC

[Stage Direction]
OCEANOGRAPHIC WORK	,
Mr. Herridge: 1.	Were any firms approached to provide helicopters for oceanographic work in the Arctic during the past 12 months?
2.	If so, what were the names of the firms approached?
3.	What previous experience in Arctic flying had each of the companies?
4.	To which firm was the contract awarded and for what reason?


Hon. Paul Comtois (Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys):: The answer to question 1 is, yes.
2.	Renting Helicopters Limited, Spartan Air Services Limited, Autair Helicopters Services Limited, Okanagan Helicopters Limited and Pacific Helicopters Limited.
3.	All the firms have had previous experience in northern Canada.
4.	Autair Helicopter Services Limited, on the basis of the lowest estimated cost for the expected utilization using applicable tariff rates filed with the air transport board.



J. R. TOLMIE, OTTAWA  LEGAL SERVICES

Mr. Herridge: 1.	Does Mr. J. R. Tolmie, barrister, 77 Metcalfe street, Ottawa, act as counsel or agent for the government of Canada, or any department or agency thereof?
2.	If so, for what departments or agencies?


Hon. E. D. Fulton (Minister of Justice):: Mr. Speaker, may this question be passed as an order for return, since the information may have to come from a number of departments.


Mr. Speaker:: Stands as an order for return.



URANIUM RESEARCH


Mr. Mcllraith: 1.	Was a request to contribute to research on the use of uranium made by the Minister of Trade and Commerce to the leaders of the uranium industry?
2.	If so, when was such a request made, what form did it take and to whom was it addressed?
3.	Did the request contain any suggestions as to the fields in which such research activity might take place, and if so, what were the suggestions?


Hon. Gordon Churchill (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: 1. Yes.
2.	December 17, 1959. A suggestion that the uranium industry should contribute to the very costly expense in the general field of nuclear research and alternative uses of uranium, and the figure of $1 million was used. Addressed to: Dr. E. B. Gillanders, Mr. A. W. Stollery, Mr. J. N. Botsford and Mr. V. C. Wansbrough, who are the executive committee of the uranium producers committee of the Canadian metal mining association.
3.	Answered by answer No. 2.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. Pickersgill: 1.	Has there been an increase in social security payments between the fiscal years 1956-57 and 1958-59 and, if so, how much?
2.	How much of such increase is attributable to (a) an increase in the number of recipients: (bj legislation enacted before June 21, 1957; (c) legislation enacted since June 21, 1957?
3.	Is any portion of this amount for the federal share of hospital insurance and, if so, how much?



CENTRAL MORTGAGE AND HOUSING


Mr. Argue: 1.	Has Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation engaged any legal counsel on a full-time basis in Montreal since January 1, 1950?
2.	If so, (a) what is the name of each; (b) the firm with which each is connected; (c) the date of the engagement; (d) the salary, and terms of engagement?
3.	Has any outside legal firm or counsel been engaged for legal service on Montreal island by Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation at any time since January 1, 1950?
4.	If so, (a) what was the name of each so engaged; (b) the date; (c) the purpose; (d) amount charged the corporation on each occasion; (e) the amount paid, and on what date, in each year?
Orders for Returns



J. R. TOLMIE, OTTAWA-LEGAL SERVICES

Mr. Herridge: 1.	Does Mr. J. R. Tolmie, barrister, 77 Metcalfe street, Ottawa, act as counsel or agent for the government of Canada, or any department or agency thereof?
2.	If so, for what departments or agencies?



WHEAT ACREAGE PAYMENTS


Mr. Benidickson: 1.	How many persons were hired in connection with payments to western grain producers of $1.00 per acre?
2.	How many were selected by the civil service
commission?
3.	How much of the costs of salaries for such specially hired persons for administration of the acreage payment scheme was borne by (a) the Canadian wheat board; (b) the consolidated revenue fund?



MARINE RAILWAYS OR SLIPWAYS

[Stage Direction]
Question No. 216
Mr. Carter:: 1.	Does the government of Canada own and operate marine railways or slipways capable of being used for the repair of vessels from 50 to 100 feet in length or larger?
2.	If so, where are such marine railways or slipways located?
3.	Are there any such marine railways or slipways in Canada which are (a) owned jointly by the government of Canada and some other government or agency; (b) operated jointly by the government of Canada and some other government or agency; (c) owned by the government of Canada but operated by some private or public agency on behalf of the government?
4.	If so, what are the names of the other governments or agencies and where are the marine railways or slipways located?



IMPORTS OF HEARSES

Mr. Boulanger: 1.	How many hearses either new or used were imported from United States into Canada during 1959 and given the class No. 5661 in publication "Trade of Canada"?
2.	What was their value?
3.	Is it necessary to get a permit to import this merchandise?
4.	If so, to whom were such permits granted in 1959?



SHIPBUILDING CONTRACTS

Mr. Bourgei: 1.	Were any ship Building contracts awarded or allocated by the federal government since January 1, 1958?
2. If so, (a) what was the total value of such contracts; (b) the value of each particular contract; (c) the name of the shipyard to which each contract was awarded?



INCOME TAX PERSONNEL, 1955-1959

Mr. Boivin: How many employees were there at the head office of the income tax division in Ottawa and at district offices, during each of the years 1955, 1956, 1957, 1958 and 1959?

Newfoundland Labour Legislation LABOUR CONDITIONS



NEWFOUNDLAND LEGISLATION


Mr. Arnold Pelers (Timiskaming):: Mr. Speaker, I ask leave to move the adjournment of the house under standing order 26 for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely the immediate need for the government to protect human rights and fundamental freedoms by giving consideration to the disallowance to date of Bill No. 1, an amendment to the labour relations act, and Bill No. 2, the trade union (emergency provisions) act, as passed by the Newfoundland legislature.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Mr. Speaker, may I refer Your Honour to citation 161 at page 135 of Beauchesne's fourth edition, which I submit clearly disposes of the matter. The citation commences:
Disallowance of provincial laws is not one of the functions of the dominion parliament.
I now refer to the second paragraph of that citation:
Since the only power enjoyed by our House of Commons in matters of disallowance is to criticize the action of the dominion government after it has either disallowed or refused to disallow a provincial act. it follows that the house must await government action before taking the matter up. If the house considered the act before the expiration of the one-year period during which council must give its decision, it would exceed its own jurisdiction.
There are a number of other paragraphs in this citation which I submit clearly establish that a motion of this type is out of order.


Mr. Hazen Argue (Assiniboia):: On the point of order which has been raised by the Minister of Justice, the minister has pointed out that this citation reads in part as follows:
-it follows that the house must await government action before taking the matter up.
We have awaited that government action. We have awaited that action for the whole period of one year. This is the time when the government should act; and because we have waited for the government to act, and because this is the last day when such a motion as this can be raised, we are presenting it at this time. The citation goes on to say:
If the house considered the act before the expiration of the one-year period during which council must give its decision, it would exceed its own jurisdiction.
It may be a matter of minutes as to when the exact period of one year has elapsed, but today is one year from the day on which the bills were delivered to the cabinet, and we
[Mr. Boivin.l
feel that this is the time when this question should be debated and that this is the proper action to take.
Citation No. 100 on page 89 says that the matter so raised must be within the administrative responsibility of the government. There is no question about that; the government has the responsibility and the jurisdiction to disallow such an act. Paragraph 2 of the same citation reads in part as follows:
The "definite matter of urgent public importance", for the discussion of which the adjournment of the house may be moved under standing order 26, must be so pressing that public interest will suffer if it is not given immediate attention.
I suggest that this matter is very much in this category and that if action is not taken at this time then fundamental rights and human freedoms of Canadian citizens, on this occasion in the province of Newfoundland, will have been abrogated and infringed upon. We therefore feel it is urgent that this matter be considered and that these fundamental rights of Canadian citizens should be protected by the appropriate action of disallowance by the federal government.


Mr. W. M. Benidickson (Kenora-Rainy River):: May I speak to the point of order which was raised by the Minister of Justice. I suggest, first of all, that the minister broke off too conveniently when he read from page 136. If he had continued to the third paragraph he would have found that the words immediately following the words he quoted read as follows:
When the year within which disallowance may take place has expired, the government's action or inaction may be discussed in the House of Commons.
If my information is correct the bill was sent to the Secretary of State on March 16, 1959-received on March 16, 1959-and I suggest that the year then expired at midnight last night, so it is not a matter of minutes with respect to the period.


Edmund Davie Fulton: The motion itself, as I recall it-I have not seen a copy yet-asked for the adjournment of the house to discuss a matter of urgent public importance, namely the desirability of the government taking action now, before it is too late, to disallow this bill. The words of the motion were to that effect. Thus the whole basis on which the motion was moved was that this is in fact the last day. Whether or not my friend the hon. member for Kenora-Rainy River would be right in his assumption that midnight last night was the expiry time, the fact of the matter is that if the time has expired the motion is self defeating.
I think the better view would be that one year from the time of receipt-since the

legislation was received on the 16th-would include today. I take it that is the basis upon which the motion was drawn, and without going into the question that is the point to which I was addressing myself. I would refer the hon. member for Kenora-Rainy River to the next sentence after the one he stopped at, that sentence reading:
The practice usually followed has been to wait until the question of disallowance has been decided upon by the government and then to move for the production of papers relating thereto.
That is the usual way in which this kind of matter is dealt with.


Mr. Harold E. Winch (Vancouver East):: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate very much the words of the Minister of Justice. This is an important matter of procedure and the authority of the government. If it is not possible to raise this question until after the time has expired, then of course the government has no authority whatever. All we are asking is that it be recognized that it does have the authority now.


Hon. J. W. Pickersgill (Bonavisla-Twil-lingate):: Mr. Speaker, if I could just say a word, it seems to me it is difficult to conceive that there could be a 16th of March twice in one year. I submit that the argument of the hon. member for Kenora-Rainy River is irrefutable, and that once more the C.C.F. has missed the bus.


Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, perhaps I could be permitted to say a word. If the hon. gentleman had taken the trouble to look at the rules regarding interpretation he would have found that in computing a period of time it is always exclusive of the first day and inclusive of the last.


Mr. Speaker:: The motion which I am asked to accept under rule 26 is to call upon the governor in council, in whom is entrusted under the British North America Act the power of disallowing provincial statutes, to disallow two bills of the legislature of Newfoundland the period of disallowance for which appears to expire today or tomorrow, according to various interpretations of the time. In my view it does not matter whether it expires today or tomorrow. If this is a question of disallowance it is a power which has been entrusted to the executive and not to the legislature. For that reason it seems to be clearly settled and decided in our practice, as stated by Beauchesne in citation No. 161, that until the government has acted the legislature is not competent to call on the government to take one course of action or the other.
Motions for Papers
It is, of course, open to the legislature of Newfoundland to change its laws if it sees fit, and of course it is open to this house to criticize the government if it does not disallow. Such a motion could be brought in the house, in accordance with the citation to which I am referred, criticizing the government tomorrow or on the next supply motion or at any time any hon. member can claim the time of the house for presenting such a motion, so what is in a question here is not criticism of the government for the action it has taken; it is rather a question of seeking to advise the government before it has acted. I think the authority is sufficiently clear that if today is the last day it is too early to bring the motion, and if the time for disallowance has expired the matter has no urgency because any action of the house would not alter the situation.


Harold Edward Winch: That is the very point. Do I understand from what you have just said that the House of Commons cannot deal with this matter until the last minute of the period of authority of the cabinet to deal with the matter; and, if so, that we cannot even raise it then because by that time the time has expired and it is a fait accompli? Is that the case?


Mr. Speaker:: That is precisely the situation. Perhaps I did not make myself as clear as I should. It is based on the legal responsibility of the government for this action and the corresponding lack of responsibility on the part of the house, so the decision whether or not to disallow is entirely a matter for the government. The house is free to criticize the government. The house is in no position Itself to take a decision or to insist on a decision being taken by the government.


Harold Edward Winch: You also agree that until the time is up it cannot be questioned, and then it is too late; so where the heck is responsible government?


Mr. Speaker:: I do not think it would be appropriate to enter into a debate with the hon. member, but I would be glad to discuss it with him at any time.



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS


[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 67-Mr. Argue:
For a copy of ail correspondence, telegrams and other documents, exchanged between the federal government, each provincial government, and any dominion or provincial organization, since May 27, 1959, regarding the establishment of a national energy policy.
Gordon Minto Churchill: Agreed, subject to the usual reservation.

Motions for Papers


Mr. Speaker:: Subject to the limitation expressed by the minister, is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion?


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 69-Mr. Hellyer:
For a copy of the offer to purchase for the lands acquired or being acquired from Toronto Industrial Leaseholds (1957) Limited by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation for its proposed new Toronto area office.
George Clyde Nowlan: Mr. Speaker, I am not
sure that there is a formal offer with respect to this matter, but I have discussed the matter with the hon. member and I will produce all the correspondence and other documents that we have in the file.


Mr. Hellyer:: That is agreeable.


Mr. Speaker:: Is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion?


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 70-Mr. Robichaud:
For a copy of any contracts entered into by the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys with Spartan Air Services, photographic air surveys and air surveys, since January 1, 1955.
Paul Comtois: Mr. Speaker, I have discussed this matter with the hon. member for Gloucester, and it has been agreed that he will be satisfied with a list of all contracts awarded to these companies since 1955 together with a copy of one of the contracts, which are all the same. These papers will be tabled possibly this afternoon or tomorrow, in any event within a few days.


Mr. Speaker:: Is an order to be made or is the motion to be withdrawn on that understanding?


Hédard-J. Robichaud: Withdrawn on that understanding.
Order discharged and motion withdrawn.



POWER EXPORT REPRESENTATIONS

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 71-Mr. Herridge:
For a copy of all correspondence, letters, telegrams, memoranda, reports and other documents, exchanged from January 1, 1950 to March 1, 1960, between the government of Canada, or any department or officer thereof, and any officer, agent or representative of the West Kootenay Power and Light Company Limited, or the Consolidated Mining and Smelting Company of Canada Limited, with respect to representations or applications for permission to export power, or with respect to the taxation of the same by statute or order in council.
Motion agreed to.
[Mr. Churchill.)

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 72-Mr. McGrafh:
For a copy of all correspondence exchanged between the Minister of Labour and the premier of Newfoundland, since October 1, 1959, relative to the setting up of a vocational training program on Bell island, Newfoundland.
Michael Starr: Motion agreed to subject to the agreement of the province of Newfoundland.


Mr. Speaker:: Subject to the limitation expressed by the minister, is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion?


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
William Arnold Peters: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Prime Minister a question. Because this is the last possible day, is any action contemplated some time this day to disallow the anti-labour legislation contained in-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I believe the same question was asked earlier this session, and the ruling at that time was that the only question which was permissible was whether or not the government had disallowed.


William Arnold Peters: Then may I ask the Prime Minister if they have disallowed the legislation?


John George Diefenbaker: No, Mr. Speaker.


Hazen Robert Argue: May I ask
a further question on that point. Can the Prime Minister say whether the government has received representations from the international labour organization at Geneva asking that this undemocratic legislation be disallowed? If so, what has been the reply?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member has embellished his question with statements that are not properly there. If he would limit his question to asking whether there have been representations I think I would not prevent it.


Hazen Robert Argue: Then my question is, has the government received representations from the I.L.O. that this legislation should be disallowed? If so, what reply has been given?


John George Diefenbaker: We have received representations from the I.L.O. but not, as I recall, on the question of disallowance.


Hazen Robert Argue: May I ask the Minister of Labour whether any representations have

Inquiries of the Ministry
been received through his office from the in- brought this matter to my attention and as ternational labour organization concerning a result of his inquiry to me our department this question.	is making a thorough investigation.


Michael Starr: Mr. Speaker, the office of the Minister of Labour has been used as an intermediary for information required by the I.L.O. from the province of Newfoundland, and to that extent only.
(Translation):



CAPE BRETON-REPORTED CLOSING OF THREE MINES

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Armand Dumas (Villeneuve):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to put a question to the Minister of Mines and Technical surveys.
In a brief submitted to the Rand commission this morning, the Dominion Coal Company stated its intention to shut down three mines in Cape Breton, with the consequent lay-off of 2,557 miners.
What action is the government planning to take in this regard?


Paul Comtois: Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of this statement, at least it has not come to my attention as yet. However, I shall read this report and draw up a reply to the hon. member.
(Text):



METEOROLOGICAL SERVICE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hédard-J. Robichaud: I wish to address a question to the Minister of Transport. In view of the unfortunate disaster which resulted in seven fishermen losing their lives in a recent storm off the Nova Scotia coast, could the minister order an investigation and advise the house whether adequate warning of the approaching storm was provided and also what steps have been taken to undertake a detailed research study so that weather offices will be in a better position to anticipate such unusual and rapid weather developments, as promised by the minister in the house on June 23 last following the Northumberland strait disaster of June 19?


George Harris Hees: The hon. member for Queens-Lunen-burg, who is always alert to the affairs and concerns of the people of the maritime provinces and his riding particularly, has



FISHERIES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. R. Tucker (Trinity-Conception):: should like to direct a question to the Minister of Fisheries. Has his attention been called to a report that a foreign sealing vessel is operating within the territorial waters of Canada and, if so, what action is his department taking?


Hon. J. A. MacLean (Minister of Fisheries):: Mr. Speaker, a telegram has been received in which the sender says it was reported to him that a foreign sealing vessel was operating within Canadian territorial waters. I have taken immediate action to establish what is the situation, but as yet no report has been received from the officers in the field.



BRITISH COLUMBIA


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Harold Edward Winch: I
should like to direct a question to the Minister of Fisheries. I should like to ask him whether any consideration is being given by his department to the fact that the whaling fleet of British Columbia is not going out this year, and whether consideration is being given by his department-because it is now close to the time when they go out-as to assistance to the whaling industry of British Columbia.


John Angus MacLean: I have received a report that it is not the intention of the company concerned to operate this year because, for various reasons, they do not find it economic to do so.


Harold Edward Winch: May I ask a supplementary
question. Has the Minister of Fisheries received any information from the union concerned that it is possible to operate on the Canadian business in whale meat and oil? Has he received any information from the trade union concerned?


John Angus MacLean: Yes. I think I
am correct in saying that a telegram, I believe it was, was received from the union concerned with regard to the fact that the whaling industry in Vancouver island was not expected to operate this year. The contents of the message or the telegram are

Inquiries of the Ministry under consideration, but the matter would appear to tall completely outside the responsibility of the federal government.



BRIDGES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. W. Baskin (Renfrew South):: May
I direct a question to the Prime Minister? Would the Prime Minister care to comment on a matter which for almost a quarter of a century was continually brought in vain to the attention of the previous administration-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member
seems to have destroyed the urgency of his question before he has asked it.


James William Baskin: I might say that since 1957 numerous representations have also been made by members of this party to the Prime Minister concerning the requirement for a new and suitable bridge to span the Ottawa river between the cities of Ottawa and Hull.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, representations have been made by the various interested bodies over a period of time with respect to the question of a bridge between Ottawa and Hull. I have now communicated with the premiers of Ontario and Quebec, as well as the mayors of the cities of Ottawa and Hull, to the end that if they are agreeable a meeting will be convened early in April for the purpose of giving the fullest consideration to this matter.



AGRICULTURE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Erharf Regier (Burnaby-Coquillam):: I should like to ask the Minister of Agriculture a question, and if I have not given him adequate notice perhaps he would like to accept this as notice. Has the government of British Columbia purchased any surplus pork and, if so, has the minister any comment to make on the allegation that 150 tons of surplus pork were converted into fertilizer and dog food at Young's rendering plant on South Fraser street in Vancouver? Would the minister care to comment as to what level of government is responsible for an occurrence of this kind?


Hon. D. S. Harkness (Minister of Agriculture):: Mr. Speaker, the government of the province of British Columbia have not

purchased any pork or pork products from the agricultural stabilization board, but as of Friday, March 11, 20,000 cases of canned pork luncheon meat had been donated to them for distribution to eligible institutions, local municipal authorities, and welfare organizations for welfare purposes.
The agricultural stabilization board called for tenders on February 15 on a quantity of frozen pork bellies placed in storage prior to June 30, 1959, for rendering into lard or tallow. Gordon Young Limited were the highest bidders on 230,980 pounds of these frozen bellies, and my information is that they are at present rendering them into lard and/or tallow under the supervision of an inspector of the health of animals division of the Department of Agriculture.



THE CANADIAN ECONOMY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. W. Herridge (Kootenay West):: wish to address a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce. Has the cabinet, to date, received a report from the national energy board, and if so will that report be made public?


Gordon Minto Churchill: The answer to the first part of the question is no. The other part of the question has been asked several times, and when a report is made to the government a decision will be reached.



DIVORCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Frank Howard (Skeena):: I should like to ask the Minister of Justice whether he is yet in a position to report to the house the results of his discussions with the Speaker of the other place regarding allowing the Exchequer Court of Canada to deal with divorce cases arising in the provinces of Quebec and N ewf oundland.


Edmund Davie Fulton: No, Mr. Speaker, I have no results that I am in a position to report.


Frank Howard: May I ask a supplementary question. Is it the intention of the minister to pursue these discussions and make a report upon their completion?


Edmund Davie Fulton: I think what the hon. member has in mind is a statement I made in 1958 in answer to a query from an hon. member then in the house, in which I said the matter

was of concern to me as a member of parliament and that I proposed, personally, to take up the matter and see if anything could be done.
However, I should have made it clear, if I did not, that this was not a matter which I was undertaking as Minister of Justice but a matter about which I had been concerned as a member of parliament and which I intended to follow up in that capacity. If at any time there is entrusted to me any responsibility in the matter as Minister of Justice, then of course I would be in a position, presumably, where I would have to be making a report. As yet I have regarded it as a matter concerning me only as a member of parliament, and not as minister.


Frank Howard: Is the minister aware that his comments at that time-it was January 9, 1958-were made in his capacity as Minister of Justice, while answering a question put to him in his capacity as Minister of Justice, during the consideration of the estimates of the exchequer court which come under his department?


Edmund Davie Fulton: I was not aware of that. I would have to look back at the question. I merely ^recalled that there had been some inquiry directed to me. If the hon. member is right, then I would be glad to make whatever modification I have to make to the answer I have just given.


Frank Howard: You have.



FREIGHT RATES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hédard-J. Robichaud: May I
address a question to the Minister of Transport. In view of the negative and rather ambiguous reply which I received to my question on March 14, can the minister now advise the house whether he has received a telegram from the maritime transportation commission requesting that the rollback of the last 17 per cent freight rate increase be extended beyond the present deadline of July 31?


George Harris Hees: No, Mr. Speaker, I have not received it personally, but if I do receive it that request, like any other request that comes to me, will receive very careful consideration.


Hédard-J. Robichaud: I rise on a question of privilege. I have here a telegram from the secretary treasurer of the maritime transportation commission advising that a wire was sent to the Minister of Transport-


Some hon. Members:: Order.
Inquiries of the Ministry


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member has the word of another hon. member that he has not received the telegram. What is the question of privilege?


Hédard-J. Robichaud: My question of privilege is this. On March 14 the minister, in reply to a question addressed to him, said he had not received a telegram from the maritime transportation commission. I took the trouble to wire the maritime transportation commission and I received yesterday the following reply:
Retel MTC chairman A. M. Mackay wired Minister of Transport March seventh requesting rollback beyond July thirty-first.
What I want to know from the minister is what reply he made to the telegram.


George Harris Hees: I think it should be clear, even to the hon. member, that if I did not receive the telegram obviously I have not made an answer. I have told him that if I do receive it, when I receive it-if it were sent I am sure I will receive it-then, as this government always does and contrary to the practice of the government which the hon. member supported a few years ago-this matter will receive very careful consideration, will be weighed, and then whatever is possible and practical to look after the needs and aspirations of the people of Canada will be done.


Hédard-J. Robichaud: If the minister did not get the telegram, would he take the matter into consideration and fix up this mess which exists in his department?


Mr. Speaker:: As I understand the exchange so far, the question has already been answered, and at length.



NATIONAL DEFENCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Paul Theodore Hellyer: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Defence. Will the minister comment on a report in the Winnipeg Free Press of March 14 that the United States Lacrosse ground to ground missile is being abandoned by the Canadian army in favour of one called the Honest John?


George Randolph Pearkes: The question of supplying ground to ground missiles for the Canadian forces in Europe is under consideration by the government.
2126	HOUSE OF
Inquiries of the Ministry


Paul Theodore Hellyer: I should like to direct to the Minister oi National Defence a question supplementary to my previous one. Can the minister tell us whether the Canadian army is presently engaging in evaluation tests of other United States ground to ground missiles such as the Honest John, and whether he expects that some announcement will be made shortly as to plans for Canadian procurement?


George Randolph Pearkes: The answer is yes to both questions.



EARLY WARNING SYSTEM


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
George Randolph Pearkes: Yesterday the hon. member for Port Arthur asked the Minister of Transport a question. As it is of military significance, the Minister of Transport has asked me to give a reply.
The regulations to which the hon. member referred concern instructions as to the procedure for reporting unusual incidents which, in the observer's opinion, may require investigation by the military authorities.


Mr. D. M. Fisher (Port Arthur):: I should like to ask a supplementary question. Can the minister explain why the regulations pinpoint only United States and Canadian vessels or warships as friends? Are we to understand that these people on ships would report British or other naval warships as unfriendly, or as worth reporting to the warning system?


George Randolph Pearkes: As most of the unusual incidents are those connected with objects or suspected objects seen flying in the air, they are of concern only to two countries.



POST OFFICE DEPARTMENT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Azellus Denis (St. Denis):: May I ask a
question of the Postmaster General. Would the minister care to comment on a recent robbery of six mail bags from a truck near Caughnawaga, as reported in La Presse of yesterday?


William McLean Hamilton: Yes, Mr. Speaker. On Monday one of our trucks was stopped on the highway by holdup men who put two cars in front of it, invaded the cab, tied up the driver and took some mail from the truck. There was a comparatively small loss of money, and a good deal of the mail has since been recovered.


The hon. member will be interested to know that on the same night to which reference is made-which the press called "a night of theft and violence"-there were two taxi drivers held up, a restaurant holdup, a mugging of a Verdun resident and three break-ins. I should like to assure him that it is only occasionally that we are the recipients of the attentions of these people.


Azellus Denis: I should like to ask the Postmaster General whether the taxi driver could come under his jurisdiction because he reported the robbery. I should also like to ask the Postmaster General whether he will consider the advisability of having the mail carried by train instead of by trucks whenever possible, as a better protection against theft?


William McLean Hamilton: This is already being done, Mr. Speaker, and has been for a long time.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I should like to ask the minister whether there is any particular significance that he has been able to discover in the concentration of these crimes in his own bailiwick.


William McLean Hamilton: It is
equally the general area occupied by the hon. member for St. Denis.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Azellus Denis: I want to raise a question of privilege. The Postmaster General said it happened in my territory. The fact is that it is in his territory. We were just talking about the vote to the Indians, and it happened to be near Caughnawaga. It is far from my place.


Mr. Speaker:: Until the hon. member is accused, I think he does not need to raise a question of privilege.



FINANCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Erhart Regier: should like to direct a question to the Minister of Finance. Is it the intention of the government to refer the most interesting report of the governor of the Bank of Canada to the standing committee on banking and commerce?


Donald Methuen Fleming: No, Mr. Speaker. There is no occasion for the government proposing to do that.


Erhart Regier: May I ask the minister whether any government actions are being planned to

implement a number of the worth-while recommendations of the governor of the Bank of Canada?


Donald Methuen Fleming: So far as the question has any relevance to business properly coming before the house, the answer will become known in due course.


Erhart Regier: I wonder whether I might ask the minister another question. Does the minister not consider the report as pointing up sufficiently urgent problems to make them matters of urgent public importance?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member had an answer that when decisions were made they would be communicated to the house. The question seems to me to be answered.


Harold Edward Winch: On
a matter which has to do with the report of the Bank of Canada, is it not proper to ask whether it will be referred to a committee of the house?


Mr. Speaker:: That question has been asked.



HARBOURS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. D. J. Walker (Minister of Public Works):: Yesterday the hon. member for Burin-Burgeo asked this question:
Has the minister received any report on the recent storm damage to the new pier at Grand Bank? If so, what steps are being taken to keep the harbour open for shipping?
A preliminary report on the damage has been received, which states that the outer 100 feet of the breakwater has been damaged by storm action to some extent. It is believed there is little if any material washed into the channel, so that the shipping has not been affected.
A complete report will be received as soon as engineers can reach the site, when the storm abates. The roads are now completely blocked.



PARLIAMENT HILL


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
David James Walker: Yesterday afternoon the hon. member for Kootenay West asked this question:
In view of the fact that tanks and rubbish have been left over from the construction of the new main steps for over a month, could the minister have these unsightly things removed now that spring is arriving?
The answer is that the rubbish referred to was removed yesterday morning.
Inquiries of the Ministry



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John Whitney Pickersgill: I should like to ask the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration whether she could advise us how soon she anticipates being able to introduce the revisions or amendments to the Immigration Act which she forecast?


Hon. Ellen L. Fairclough (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration):: I had hoped to be able to introduce them. They are still in the process of being considered by the various departments of government and others interested. I am afraid that at the present time I cannot give my hon. friend any definite answer.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I should like to ask a supplementary question. Does the hon. lady expect to introduce them this session?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I think what I previously said answers that question also.


EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Howard C. Green (Secretary of Stale for External Affairs):: I have now looked into the matter of German records of the nazi period about which the hon. member for Assiniboia asked a question on March 11. The United States forces captured biographical records and other official documents of the nazi period, and the United States government has since retained these in a documents centre in the American sector of West Berlin.
As the United States government has already made known, these records continue to be made available to official allied and German agencies and also to organizations such as the office of the U.N. high commissioner for refugees and to private individuals desiring to use the records in connection with official actions such as the filing of claims or for historical research purposes. I understand that the United States government takes the view that since many of the files are incomplete or contain unevaluated material, uncontrolled use of such data could do an injustice to persons now living. Individual requests for information are dealt with on a case by case basis, but the press has never had direct access to these records, which are official files.

Inquiries of the Ministry
Mr. Speaker, it has been learned in Washington that no United States decision has been made to grant the West German government any right to prevent access to these records. Beyond this I would merely say that the Canadian government does not have any share in the responsibility tor the custody or disposition of these documents, which have been in the possession of the United States government for the past 15 years.


Hazen Robert Argue: Mr. Speaker, since these documents have to do with the records of nazi war criminals, can the minister say whether or not to this government's knowledge the United States is prepared to turn these records, as the report states, over to the Bonn government, which presumably would then have the right to destroy them?


Howard Charles Green: No, Mr. Speaker, I have no information on that subject.


Hazen Robert Argue: Well, has the minister obtained any information as to whether this report is correct? I think it would be a very disturbing thing if the records should be turned over to the Bonn government and then destroyed.


Howard Charles Green: The hon. member will have noted that in my first answer I pointed out that the West German government has not been given the right to prevent access to these documents. Therefore I take it there is no question of ever turning the documents over to them.


Harold Edward Winch: Could I ask the minister whether Canada has access to these records, particularly as they apply to those who now sit on judges' benches in Germany? Can Canada obtain information from these inner records? If so, I would like to supply a lot of information to the minister if he would apply on behalf of Canada to have the nazi records available.


Howard Charles Green: If information is required by Canada for our own purposes, I presume it could be obtained from the United States government.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: May
I ask a supplementary question. I am very interested in this question, and I know a good many members of the house are too. Does the minister know that a very responsible correspondent of the Toronto Telegram, a Mr. Gordon Donaldson, was denied access to these documents?


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Would the minister consider making representations so that responsible

press representatives would have the opportunity to examine these documents when writing their stories as well as writing history?


Howard Charles Green: I pointed out in my first answer that the press has not been given direct access to these documents by the United States government.


Harold Edward Winch: May I ask, if the records are given to the Secretary of State for External Affairs concerning Bonn judges and nazis now in control, would he have them investigated on behalf of Canada-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member perhaps should take the action before he asks what will be done about it? It is purely hypothetical.


Harold Edward Winch: I want to know whether or not the government has access to those documents.


Mr. Speaker:: I have pointed out to the hon. member that his question is not in order, it being purely hypothetical. He is asking for an opinion on something which has not happened.


Harold Edward Winch: No, it is not hypothetical-


Some hon. Members:: Order.



ORGANIZATION OF AMERICAN STATES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hazen Robert Argue: I would like to direct a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs. In view of the growing importance of the Latin American republics and the need to assist in the democratic and economic development of these states, is Canada considering joining the organization of American states?


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, the whole question of Canada's relationships with our neighbours in Latin America is under consideration. This afternoon, once orders of the day are through, I hope to have a very interesting conference with the distinguished foreign minister of Brazil, Dr. Horatio Lafer, who arrived in Ottawa today.


Hazen Robert Argue: I wonder if the minister might say specifically whether Canada is considering the possibility of joining this organization at an early date?


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, we are considering a great many things, and when government policy is decided it will be duly announced in the house.


Hon. L. B. Pearson (Leader of ihe Opposition):: Is the minister not aware that his predecessor gave exactly the same answer to the same question nearly two years ago?


Howard Charles Green: Perhaps it was an improper question, just the same as the one today.



INQUIRIES FOR RETURNS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, yesterday, as reported at page 2070 of Hansard, the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate asked me two questions concerning two orders for returns. I regret that in reply to his first question I erred in my identification of the particular order to which he referred. I am sorry about that, Mr. Speaker. I thought by reason of his allusion to the resolution concerning amendments to the Federal-Provincial Tax-Sharing Arrangements Act the hon. member was referring to two orders for production of papers made on February 15, Nos. 39 and 42. The answer I gave to his first question relates to the production sought in those two motions. I may say that the correspondence with the provincial governments referred to in those two motions Nos. 39 and 42 has been tabled and is now in the custody of the clerk of the house.
As to question No. 46 which he asked a week ago, and which was the actual matter to which he referred, I may say that the information required in that respect will have to come from a number of departments and is not yet available. In any event I do not think it has relevance to the measure to which the hon. gentleman related it in his question, but when that resolution is called I expect to have available for the committee all the information which I think is relevant to the resolution.
Concerning the second question put to me by the hon. member, I may say that I have looked into the order for return to which he referred, No. 97 of July 1, 1959. I find that so far as the Department of Finance is interested in this matter, the information was made available within six days of the order being made in the house, and any further inquiries about this order for return I think should accordingly be directed to my colleague the Acting Secretary of State.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I was puzzled, I must confess, by the minister's answer yesterday, because I did not see what provincial governments had to do with the question at all, and I accept his explanation.
79951-0-134
Inquiries of the Ministry
As for the other matter, the reason I directed my question to the minister was that it was the Minister of Finance who asked to have this matter made an order for return, and in the list of returns which had not been made, furnished to the house some two or three weeks ago by the Acting Secretary of State, this item was included. I would be quite happy to ask the Acting Secretary of State if he will expedite the return, but I wonder whether the Minister of Finance has not more access to the Acting Secretary of State than I have.



TRANSPORT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hédard-J. Robichaud: Mr. Speaker, as the Prime Minister must have had time to see the statement I referred to yesterday, is he now prepared to answer my question?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman did send me the clipping from the Halifax newspaper referred to. The question asked by him was, had I seen the statement respecting the Chignecto canal attributed to the parliamentary secretary to the Postmaster General? He having sent me a copy of the statement, the answer is yes.
With regard to the appropriateness of an hon. member holding the office of parliamentary secretary making statements such as that, may I say that throughout the years the system of parliamentary secretaries has been in effect this question has been frequently asked. I noticed on reading the statement of the hon. member for Halifax that he stated he was speaking in a private capacity, and apparently it was in that capacity that he made the observations in question.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, on the point the Prime Minister has just raised, may I ask him in view of what he has just said what he meant when he sat on this side of the house and referred to statements made by parliamentary assistants, as they were called then, and said, as reported at page 1019 of Hansard for February 9, 1954:
I can scarcely believe that it would ever have contemplated that they speak without responsibility.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, that is still my view.

National Housing Act NATIONAL HOUSING ACT



AMENDMENTS INCREASING AGGREGATE AMOUNT OF INSURED LOANS, ETC.

[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Tuesday, March 15, consideration of the motion of Mr. Walker for the second reading of Bill No. C-53 to amend the National Housing Act, 1954.
David James Walker: Mr. Speaker, I was amazed many times yesterday at the speech made by the hon. member for Assiniboia (Mr. Argue) but no statement of his surprised me more than when he asked the rhetorical question: why has housing been cut back this year? His answer was: "so that the Minister of Finance can balance the budget." The hon. member will find that at page 2108 of Hansard. I am surprised that a veteran of parliamentary life-and the hon. member for Assiniboia has been in the house for 15 years-should have asked such a question. One might think he would know better by this time and be aware that the money used by the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation to make loans to the Canadian public has nothing whatever to do with the budget. If the hon. gentleman did not know that yesterday, he knows it today, and he can always be learning.
We are not spending this money, we are lending it. The only expenditures that enter into the budget are those made under section 23 of the act, in respect of slum clearance, and under section 36 for redevelopment programs such as subsidized housing. Only these expenditures are considered in the budget. Thus, for the benefit of the hon. member for Assiniboia, the leader of the C.C.F. group, this debate is on the subject of loans, not expenditure-loans of $150 million to $175 million, without restricting in any way the money we spend on slum clearance and redevelopment, and we do not expect there will be any cut-back in these expenditures.
It may be, of course, that the lack of knowledge-I am putting it very mildly-on the part of the hon. member for Assiniboia with regard to this subject is due to his socialist upbringing and to the fact that he comes from the province of Saskatchewan which, due to the actions of its government, has very little experience in connection with farm loans from Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation. This is by reason of the Saskatchewan farm security act which would make it impossible for Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation, if it made a loan to a farmer in the province, to foreclose in the event of default. That is the situation, and it may be the excuse for lack of information on the subject by the hon. member for Assiniboia.

The hon. member for Burnaby-Coquitlam (Mr. Regier) also asked a rhetorical question. Why are you spending only $170 million out of the $500 million, he asked. In the first place, we are not spending this money, we are lending it. In the second place, we are doing so because the government has decided to reduce its borrowing from the capital market of Canada, and for this reason: every time we go into the capital market for a loan there is that much less money available to the provinces and the municipalities. Hon. members on the other side of the house have complained bitterly at times about the difficulties of the municipalities. By reducing our borrowing we are increasing the opportunity open to those municipalities to get money on the capital market. I would also point out that the lending this year-to between $150 million and $175 million-would be approximately the same as the loans made in 1959, save and except the loans made to builders in connection with the winter program which amounted to 14,000 starts.
Another reason why we are setting up an estimate of expenditure of between $150 million and $175 million is that because we are cautious. After two and a half years of a very heavy building program, with 400,000 new houses added to Canada's housing stock and with 82,000 more houses in the process of being built at the present time, we are anxious about over-extending this program. To all members of the house may I give this message: it is too early to say with any finality what the effect of the high interest rate on housing will be. Incidentally, there are high interest rates all over the world today. We may have to change our policy during the year in the light of conditions which we do not anticipate at this time. But as the picture does unfold, hon. members can be sure that the government will give it the most careful and earnest consideration. We intend at the present time, however, to confine our loans in the area between $150 million and $175 million.
As I said before, there is nothing that gives me, as minister in Charge, greater concern than the operation of this policy, which is under continuous review by the government throughout the year. We will take into consideration the state of the housing market, the conditions of general investment in the mortgage market, and the situation of the approved lenders. May I say one thing more. In spite of the encouragement which certain members of the opposition have given to an increase in the N.H.A. interest rate, there will be no increase in the rate of 6f per cent. Most hon. members will be

glad to learn this. In addition, we have no objection if some of the approved lenders wish to reduce the interest rate.
In answer to the hon. member for Moose Jaw-Lake Centre (Mr. Pascoe) who, by the way, comes from the socialist province of Saskatchewan, may I say that as soon as the socialist government there gets rid of the restrictions on collecting farm mortgage debts we would be very glad to take applications from his riding, and I am sure the result will be just as happy as that of the hon. member for Jasper-Edson (Mr. Horner) in the province of Alberta who boasted of the success of the direct C.M.H.C. loans in many of the small communities in his area.
To the hon. member for the Yukon (Mr. Nielsen) may I say that we shall be happy to entertain an application from Whitehorse in his famous riding in connection with a low rental scheme. These will be given the most earnest consideration.
To the hon. member for Timiskaming (Mr. Peters) who suggested loans on a 50-year term, may I respectfully point out to him that 50 years is a long time in the adult life of a man, and we cannot get any support from any approved lender for this kind of loan.
The hon. member for St. Boniface (Mr. Regnier) very properly and very ably suggested that we should participate in arranging shelters against atomic fallout. May I say that Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation has already undertaken to design and prepare a pamphlet dealing with fallout shelters suitable for new houses, and the corporation is also participating in the testing of a shelter suitable for existing houses.
These helpful suggestions from hon. members are very much appreciated by me as the minister in charge and, as I stated a month ago, I appreciate the remarks of the hon. member for Nipissing (Mr. Garland) who I have always found to be a very pleasant gentleman. But a great change overtook him yesterday. I cannot believe that it was the same person, except that he still appeared to be good-natured. Nevertheless, his remarks belied that good nature. Instead of a constructive speech, we heard a purely partisan, critical, carping speech.


An hon. Member:: Someone else wrote it for him.


David James Walker: Perhaps the hon. member for Oxford (Mr. Nesbitt) has told the truth of the situation, because after re-reading the speech made by the hon. member on February 17 and his speech yesterday one can only realize that it was not in fact his speech. It was the voice of the hon. member for Nipissing, but the words of Lamontagne.
79951-0-134J
National Housing Act


Lester Bowles Pearson: Don't be so childish; you are a minister now.


Mr. Garland:: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a
question of privilege. I resent very much the inference that will naturally be drawn from the remarks the minister is now making. I have had no assistance from any outside source in this or any other speech I have delivered in this house. I should like to impress upon the minister this fact and express the hope that he will not proceed to infer meanings to the contrary.


David James Walker: Mr. Speaker, I am very happy to accept the explanation of the hon. member in connection with his speech. I can assure him that as he read the speech yesterday I have no personal criticisms of it but rather was excusing him for some of the things he said in that speech.


John Richard Garland: You have not had your nose out of that document all day.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Which of your officials wrote this speech?


David James Walker: Hon. members will see that
these are abbreviated notes. I am trying to get through in my allotted time. An attempt was made yesterday by the Liberal party through the hon. member for Nipissing to take credit for some of the magnificent results of this housing policy, but the facts belie it. In the first six months of 1957 with the recession coming on to the knowledge of the then Liberal government, that government through Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation made 3,585 loans. In the last six months of 1957 during which we came into power-and hon. members I know will forgive me if I have to read the figures-the Conservative government through Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation made 21,719 loans. May I reiterate that no matter what hon. gentlemen opposite attempt to say to the contrary we have increased their loans nine times.


Mr. Bourgei:: Mr. Speaker, would the minister permit a question?


David James Walker: Surely.


Maurice Bourget: Can the minister tell us the
number of starts he expects to have this year?


David James Walker: Mr. Speaker, I can only
assume that the hon. member for Levis (Mr. Bourget) was not in the house yesterday.


Maurice Bourget: Yes, I was here.


David James Walker: If the hon. gentleman had been here he would not be asking that question. I refer him to yesterday's Hansard

National Housing Act
where he will see that I gave that information in answer to a question asked by the hon. member for Assiniboia (Mr. Argue).


Maurice Bourget: But I am asking that question for a specific purpose and-


David James Walker: My time is limited, Mr. Speaker. Surely, I do not have to answer questions twice.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The minister has the floor.


David James Walker: I suggest to the hon. member that he look it up and if he does not find it I will look up the page for him.


Maurice Bourget: I can find the page for myself. I can pick up lots of things alone.


David James Walker: You can pick up lots of things?
I do not want the hon. member for Nipissing to feel badly about this but I believe he suggested that the whole bottom had fallen out of the housing market. For his information may I give him the latest figures of housing starts for 1959?


John Richard Garland: Mr. Speaker, did I understand the minister to say that I had said the whole bottom had fallen out of the housing market?


David James Walker: The hon. member may have used a more select word than "bottom" because it denotes several meanings, not all of them delicate.


John Richard Garland: I made no reference of that kind. If we are going to have this I urge the minister to stick to what was said.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I must remind the hon. member for Nipissing as I frequently have to remind hon. members that if the member who is speaking misinterprets him or makes statements contrary to what some other hon. member said, the time to make the correction is at the end of the speech.


David James Walker: The number of starts for January and February of 1959, 8,856; the starts up to the end of February, 1960, in spite of everything, are 5,825.


Lester Bowles Pearson: In spite of what?


David James Walker: In spite of the pessimistic, destructive remarks of hon. members of the opposition who will no doubt vote for this bill as soon as the vote is reached.


Lester Bowles Pearson: If the minister ever stops talking we might.


David James Walker: The hon. member for Port Arthur (Mr. Fisher) in his remarks called for interest rates higher than 6 J per cent in spite of the fact that his leader-or titular leader, whether or not he is the real leader

I have never found out-damns the government for raising the interest rate and says it should be much lower. May I say to him that I have explained now four times how we fixed the amount of 6f per cent and how we intend to keep the interest rate at that level. We think that will prove an attractive rate for the approved lenders who are really making these loans with no risk because the government stands behind them.
The hon. member for Port Arthur also claimed that we have done very little to help towns of 5,000 or less population. He implied that we had done practically nothing. This is also an irresponsible statement from a C.C.F.'er. The hon. member was simply talking off the top of his head without his usual research and investigation. He is usually very good at that sort of thing and I am surprised at his making a statement of that kind. Usually he is very careful with his facts. Perhaps the hon. member was forced into the debate yesterday afternoon when it went flat.
In any event, to answer his suggestion the loans for communities of 5,000 or less amounted to 11,467 in 1958 making a total expenditure of $127,123,408. In 1959 there were 9,913 loans to communities of 5,000 or less, making a total expenditure of $110,680,833. I would ask hon. members and particularly the C.C.F. members to note that 15 per cent of all N.H.A. loans went to communities of 5,000 or less which is quite a substantial proportion of all the loans in Canada.
The hon. member for Port Arthur complained-and this may also answer other hon. members who feel their towns have been neglected-that the constituency of Port Arthur had been overlooked. May I say that it was sorely overlooked and neglected under the Liberals in all the four years of the Liberal administration following the passing of this act.


Mr. Caron:: This is not partisan at all.


David James Walker: Hon. gentlemen opposite have contributed that note to this debate and they have to be answered in kind. Hon. gentlemen opposite should appreciate that and among them no one will appreciate it more than the hon. member for Hull (Mr. Caron).
In 1956 under the Liberal regime one loan was made in Port Arthur through Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation. In 1959 under the Conservative government a total of 106 loans were made through Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation. There is a substantial difference. May I say further that we have received in the Port Arthur office no bona fide application which has



I960

[Stage Direction]
not been given consideration. As a matter of fact, no bona fide application was refused in 1958 and 1959.
The hon. member for Port Arthur then stated that none of the surrounding towns had been given any consideration and had been ignored. May I say that loans were made in the following communities: Marathon, Manitouwadge, Terrace Bay, Nipigon, Longlac and Geraldton.
Also, the limited dividend housing units in the lakehead amounted to 184 in 1958 of which 16 were for elderly persons sponsored by the Canadian Legion and 16 more for elderly persons sponsored by the Moose Lodge.
The hon. member for Trinity (Mr. Hellyer) who is in his seat made an interesting contribution to the debate. He, too, advocated that the bank rate should be raised to 6| per cent. I do not think he did it, however, in the presence of his leader and I assume that his suggestion for raising to 6§ per cent the interest rate in connection with National Housing Act loans constitutes the policy of the Liberal party. Is that correct?
Paul Theodore Hellyer: Mr. Speaker, I made it perfectly clear yesterday that I was speaking on my own responsibility and that the suggestion was my own. I know that the minister is not trying to twist what I said, but I did not suggest amending the Bank Act. I suggested amending the National Housing Act to permit banks to make loans under the act at the current rate as set by the order in council.


David James Walker: Then I do take it that the hon. member for Trinity stands alone as a maverick within his party and that the rest of them are not in favour of an increase to 6J per cent?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: I have not consulted my colleagues. I just made the suggestion for the benefit of the minister who seems to need it.


David James Walker: I take it that with the exception of the hon. member for Trinity all other Liberal members would be opposed to changing the Bank Act or any act that would affect the Bank Act to increase the rate to 6| per cent. Since it is my hon. friend's personal suggestion that the bank rate should be increased, would he then suggest that the government should at once increase the amount that banks can charge on farm improvement loans because if it is right for the one then why not for another?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: On a point of order, I cannot possibly see what farm improvement loans have to do with the bill under discussion
National Housing Act
today. We were called to order on this point last night. The suggestion I made was specifically in relation to this bill and had no relation whatsoever to bank rates on lending for other purposes.
Mr. Pallet!: That was not the answer you gave last night.


Mr. Speaker:: I take it that if the minister is seeking to discuss farm improvement loans he would be going beyond the scope of this debate.


David James Walker: Mr. Speaker, I want to point out to the house how inevitable it would be, if we amended the Bank Act or any other act that would effect a change in the Bank Act, that the banks would subsequently soon be making a charge of 6f per cent with relation to other types of loans.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Have you no willpower?


David James Walker: The same thing would happen with respect to the rate on home improvement loans. It would be inevitable. The government intends to hold the line for reasons which I have gone into very fully and to maintain the Bank Act rate at 6 per cent. I would also ask the hon. member to consider, if we raised the bank rate applicable to N.H.A. loans to 6J per cent, what would happen to commercial borrowers who are in need of the funds of the banks at the present time and whose rate is fixed at 6 per cent. Would it not also be suggested that the rate they pay should also be increased to 6f per cent?
The hon. member for Trinity also suggested something which is not novel but which one reads in texts and finds expressed by the intelligentsia, namely that there should be a free interest rate. Some people call it a floating rate. That is exactly what the National Housing Act is opposed to.


Hazen Robert Argue: Hear, hear.


David James Walker: I am glad to see that the hon. member for Assiniboia is in agreement with me at least on that point.


Hazen Robert Argue: That is it.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: At least the socialists are
together on that.


Hazen Robert Argue: You just want tighter money and higher interest rates than we now have.


David James Walker: This is the first time that the hon. member for Rosedale has been described as a socialist although I have literally thousands of them in my riding who voted for me.


Maurice Bourget: They did not know you.


David James Walker: It is a strange doctrine for the hon. member for Trinity to advocate. A maximum rate of interest is a central feature

National Housing Act
of N.H.A. lending. We have this legislation to stimulate mortgage lending to the man of moderate means, to the ordinary man in order to make building a home attractive to him. He is able to obtain a higher percentage of value on any loan that he makes and it allows him to pay for the loan over a period of 25 to 30 years. We have fixed the maximum rate of interest because if we did not fix it what would happen? It would be inevitable that if there were a shortage of funds the approved lenders would boost these insured loans from 6f per cent to 7 per cent or a higher rate. It would be inevitable. Then the very benefits which we are attempting to retain for the person of moderate means would be lost in the scramble to get as much money as possible.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Who wrote that for you?


David James Walker: As a matter of fact, I was improvising. Did I make any mistakes?


Lester Bowles Pearson: You should not watch your papers so carefully then.


David James Walker: The hon. member for Trinity, who has the habit of reading his speeches, must be surprised when someone just has a few notes and figures on a sheet of paper. 1 hope that my remarks are at least grammatical. In any event I can assure him-


Paul Theodore Hellyer: That would be the kindest thing one could say about them.


David James Walker: As usual my friend is attempting to be humorous and we are all very glad to have the usually staid proceedings of the house enhanced by his humour. In any event, I can assure him that the rate will not be freed any more than it will be raised. He also suggested that a private company should issue government guaranteed certificates to obtain money at a rate of 5 per cent. Why would anybody invest in such certificates when they can go on the market today and buy government bonds at 5J per cent?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: You did not listen to the suggestion. Either that or your officials did not read it.


David James Walker: I trust I have answered the various points that have been raised. If I have not answered all of them perhaps it can be done in the committee stage. But may I assure you, Mr. Speaker, that we are going forward with this program basing what we are doing on the very best consideration of all the facts with relation to the program for the ensuing year. I can assure hon. members, and I am sure this will be of extreme importance to them in their thinking, that these conclusions have not been reached
by myself alone but with the considered judgment and assistance of some of the ablest brains on the North American continent on the matter of housing. I refer to Dr. Bates, Mr. Secord, Mr. Hignett and other top officials of Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation.


John Richard Garland: Before the minister resumes his seat, could he tell us the basis for arriving at the figure he used last evening, as found at page 2112 of Hansard, when he said that
80,000	to 85,000 homes will be built with the aid of conventional loans? Would he explain the basis of arriving at that figure?


David James Walker: Where is that?


John Richard Garland: It is the last paragraph in the first column on page 2112.


Maurice Bourget: That is the page to which you referred me.


David James Walker: Thank you. I am glad the hon. member for Levis finally found it.


Maurice Bourget: Oh, 1 did.


David James Walker: That is the best calculation of the statistical department of Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation based on field surveys and all the information they have been able to gather across Canada. While I am on my feet, may I answer the hon. member for Nipissing who said that he did not say that the bottom had fallen out of the market. What he did say is found at page 2072 of Hansard and reads as follows:
Frankly, lending under the National Housing Act has practically collapsed.


John Richard Garland: Based on your own figures.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Flynn in the chair.
On clause 1-Aggregate maximum.
Mr. Forgie:: Mr. Chairman, I should like to say a few words on the bill. I have read all the speeches that have been made, including those of the minister, and I should like to refer to three or four paragraphs on page 1993 of Hansard. First of all, the minister made this statement:
Second, the prospective homebuilder will be asked to go to one of the approved lenders under the National Housing Act and, if possible, get a loan at 62 per cent. Then, failing that, the prospective homebuilder comes to Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation for a direct loan, and whatever we can do for him will be done.
The next reference I should like to make is to the second paragraph, the last part of it:
The other people, with higher incomes, can better afford to get a loan from the approved lenders and those with larger incomes still may get loans very readily, of course, at increased interest rates from the conventional lenders.

Then, the hon. member for Nipissing asked this question:
I wonder if the minister, before he moves on to another subject, could say how much of this $500 million it is expected will be lent this year?
In reply the minister said:
It is a difficult thing to prognosticate at the present time. Last year we lent between $330 million and $340 million. This time we would hope to lend about half of that amount, in other words between $150 million and with limited dividend projects added, up to $175 million.
Finally, in the last paragraph on this page, the minister said this:
The hon. member asks about builders; as I indicated in my opening remarks we are, as in former years, making direct loans only to prospective home owners. There will be, at this time, no builders' loans, nor have there ever been at the beginning of any year. We do not pretend to be in the business of making loans to builders. During the last three winters we have made loans to builders in order to give winter employment a boost.
I am very much disturbed, so far as my section of the country is concerned, by the comments of the minister when he refers to the funds that will be made available this year, that is that they will be limited to $175 million. I am disappointed in that statement because of the situation in my own constituency. In Renfrew North we do not contemplate being able to secure loans from insurance companies, trust companies, banks or private lenders. We must, therefore, rely on loans from Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation. At the present moment in the district surrounding Pembroke we have applications for 175 loans. What I am disturbed about is the adequacy of this $175 million, because the loans we are looking for in my constituency are direct loans. As I said, we have at the present time 175 people desiring such loans.
The building industry, as everybody knows, is one of Canada's largest industries. It will, along with those desiring loans, suffer I fear if the amount of money available is not stepped up. The winter works program meant nothing in my constituency. For two years committees appointed by the town council have journeyed to Toronto to see if some assistance could not be given in my riding to the unemployed who, at the present time, have increased in numbers to such an extent that the figure has reached an all-time high. I am just asking the minister if he will take into consideration the fact that we want these direct loans which will aid unemployment. They would aid the economy of my section of the country.
I ask the minister, therefore, if he will give most careful consideration to the application for direct loans because, as I have said, a
National Housing Act
sufficient number of these loans in my riding, as well as other ridings, will result in the reduction of unemployment as well as provide additional housing which is so urgently required. I was pleased to hear the minister say that these loans will be made as soon as this bill receives royal assent. I trust that those who find it necessary to secure direct loans from Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation will be able to receive the assistance they so urgently require. In conclusion, therefore, I ask the minister to give very careful consideration to the question of direct loans and whether or not he will be able to satisfy the demands of my constituents.


David James Walker: I am glad the hon. member for Renfrew North has asked the question he has because it points up the policy that is being followed. Provided his applicants have incomes of $5,000 or less, there is every indication that there will be for them just as many loans as there were last year. May I say to the hon. member that the difference in our policy is this: We only contemplate making direct loans to home owner applicants this year and if we are making such direct loans, as the hon. member has requested, then we are lending the amount of $150 million for that purpose. This will be about as much as we lent last year in direct loans to home owners.
Now, last year loans to builders for the winter program resulted in 19,000 starts, at tremendous expense to the government. The hon. member is not interested in that. The hon. member is interested in direct loans to home owners, and they will amount to about the same as last year.


James Moffat Forgie: I should like to correct the assumption of the minister. We are interested in any type of loan that will relieve unemployment. I am particularly interested in the direct loans at the present time. After consulting the contractors, I find we are interested in loans around $10,000, and not the $5,000 loans.


David James Walker: If the hon. member is referring to loans of $10,000 to prospective home owners, then that will be done. If he is talking about giving 10 loans or 15 loans to a builder, that is another point. Then, I can answer to the satisfaction of the hon. member for Renfrew North, I trust, that there will be a good supply of direct loans such as those about which he has been inquiring.


James Moffat Forgie: I hope the minister and I are in agreement on the meaning of the term "direct loans". I am talking about a loan on a house that is already contracted for, the land purchased and they are ready to go on
2136	HOUSE OF
National Housing Act
with the deal provided they can secure the amount of money necessary from Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation.


David James Walker: The hon. member is referring to direct loans to people who are building their own homes?


James Moffat Forgie: Yes.


David James Walker: Or through contractors?


James Moffat Forgie: Yes.


Mr. Van Horne:: Having sat on the opposition benches and having become familiar with the attitude of the old government toward this problem of housing, and having become familiar with this government's policy, I would say that this government is going to greater pains to improve the housing program started by the old government. What bothers me is the same thing that bothered the premier of my province when he brought the problem up at the last federal-provincial conference shortly after this government came to office.
The problem in my area is, has been and will continue to be, unless we take measures to change it, the fact that the majority of our people do not have a down payment with which to purchase a house. I went into this problem very thoroughly the other day, so I will not refer to it at length now. However, I should like to submit, very briefly, this proposition to the government, that a new philosophy on the part of the government in connection with housing is a definite requirement in Canada today.
I feel we should adopt the same philosophy toward housing as the United States has adopted. This would mean that the over-all cost of a home to prospective purchasers would not necessarily be determined by the cost of the house, that is whether the house cost $12,000, $15,000 or $18,000, but the cost of the house should be calculated on how much it costs a young couple to purchase a house and how much it costs them per month to remain in that house. In our constantly changing social status-and that situation applies to almost every individual in the country-very few families stay on the same social level for long; that is to say, it is only a matter of two or three years until they wish to sell their house and get a larger one or it is only a matter of time until they are obliged to take a job in another town and are therefore faced with the necessity of selling their house. Hence, to all intents and purposes, that house should cost what it cost to move in and what it cost per month to stay there, and getting the equity invested when it is sold.
That is the basic philosophy upon which the United States predicated their housing


program which permits a veteran to purchase a new house without paying anything at all, not even legal costs, to pay nothing for the first two months, and to start monthly payments two months after he moves in. That is the philosophy that permits a young couple in the United States to be able to move into a house that is furnished with about $2,000 worth of built-in furniture, kitchen equipment and so on with $400 down and they start their payments about three months later. Our problem of high down payments is unique to Canada. The same United States housing philosophy applies in England and in most countries whose housing programs I have studied.
The philosophy is based on how much il costs to get into a house and how much it costs to stay there. It is also predicated on the proposition that a citizen is a much better citizen when he owns his own house, when he has title to his own house, regardless ol the amount of the mortgage that is on it, because he owns the house and when he does something to the house he is doing something to enhance the value of the property which he is acquiring month by month. It also gives him a greater interest in the community. It makes for the elimination of slums. It permits families with $3,000 to $4,000 income to buy a house. That is the problem I have in my riding and it is the problem I am going to have until this government realizes that something must be done.
I sometimes get very much discouraged when I go down to my riding and I can tell you that it is not easy for a member of parliament to face his constituents and be obliged to tell them that the only reason why they cannot get houses when they have not the exorbitant down payment required is that our government is following along in the footsteps of the old Liberal regime which we promised to eradicate from Canada as far as housing is concerned.
I feel that the whole philosophy of housing should be studied. The proposition should be put forward and the members of the House of Commons should be permitted to discuss it. Housing should be made available regardless of the down payment and should be made available on the assumption that a person should not be denied the privilege to own his own home merely because his income happens to be below $4,000 or $5,000 a year.
Another thing that enters into the matter is this. I just made a little calculation here a few minutes ago. At this rate of 6f per cent the cost of a $16,000 house over a 25-year period comes to $25,000. I maintain that is too much to pay for a $16,000 house.

Do not forget this fact, Mr. Chairman. These houses in Canada are bare. There is nothing in them apart from the heating equipment. As to all the other built-in kitchen equipment and so on that is included in the United States houses and those in other countries, we do not have the benefit of that at all in Canada. Sometimes I think that Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation does not have enough faith in the Canadian people. If the United States government can sponsor legislation which provides these benefits to their people, I see no reason why those benefits cannot be provided to the people of Canada. When I say that, Mr. Chairman, I speak very seriously, I can assure you.
The situation must be studied and it must also be regarded from the point of view of the citizen who does not have a steady salary; and that consideration applies to the vast majority of workers in the maritime provinces who follow the woods or the fishing industries and who do not have a regular weekly pay cheque. I feel that this system as it is now may very well serve the people in other parts of Canada, but it does not serve the people of the maritimes. I refer to urban areas where people are working for a fixed high weekly salary and know every week exactly what they are going to make. They can possibly get along under this system. There is no question that houses are being built under this system. As the minister has just said, this government has built under that system more houses than did the old government. However, the problem down home is that our people have not the down payment. That is the first problem. They cannot afford to pay that high rate of interest; and that is the second problem.
There is only one thing to do with these problems and that is to solve them. I can recall the rather animated discussion that took place in the federal-provincial conference between the Prime Minister and the premier of my province, when the premier of New Brunswick went to great pains to explain how-as I just told the committee this afternoon-our people were in the position in which they could not find the high down payment. That consideration applies to the vast majority of our people. I feel that a new philosophy with regard to housing is a requirement. I urgently request that this government give it immediate consideration.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: I wonder whether the minister can tell us how he arrived at some of those figures he gave us last night? Perhaps he would start with the first one, the 79951-0-135
National Housing Act
400,000	homes which were completed because his government came into power. Can he tell us how that figure was made up?


Alexis Pierre Caron: It was made up in his mind.


Azellus Denis: Vision.


David James Walker: In 1957, 122,340.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Is that the whole year?


David James Walker: Yes.


John Whitney Pickersgill: You were not in office
for the whole year.


David James Walker: Your contribution was minimal.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Will the minister be fair and give what the contribution was up to June 21? It starts at June 21.


David James Walker: I shall be delighted to do so. The figures are as follows: 1958, 164,632; 1959, 141,000.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Can the minister give the figure for the number of starts between January 1 and June 21?


David James Walker: We will investigate that.


John Whitney Pickersgill: It was this broad claim the minister made on television.


David James Walker: Did you hear me? How did you think I did?


John Whitney Pickersgill: I can tell the minister that I did not hear him or see him but that the second hand reports I obtained were extremely unfavourable.


David James Walker: You mean to the opposition?


The Chairman:: Order. I recognize the hon. member for Vancouver East.


Harold Edward Winch: I did not speak on the resolution stage of this bill nor did I speak on the second reading of it because other hon. members had presented in the main the major principles I had in mind. Because of that fact I hope the Minister of Public Works will not mind if I now raise a matter which to me is of the utmost importance and perhaps ask him to answer certain questions I have in mind. I am most concerned about trying to get the attention of the Minister of Public Works.


David James Walker: I can assure the hon. member that I am paying careful attention and am making notes as he goes along.


Harold Edward Winch: May I say that the minister is one of the few cabinet ministers I know of who can do three jobs at once.
I should like to ask the Minister of Public Works this question. In view of my forgoing the right to speak at the resolution stage and

National Housing Act
on second reading, can the minister advise me whether any part of the moneys which are to be voted under the power of this bill, is to be allocated for senior citizens housing? If so, is it going to be done on any different basis from that of the past, and what consideration has been given by him to the great need of additional housing for senior citizens?
I am sure we will all agree there is a need for housing of a general nature across the country. As far as my own city of Vancouver and my own constituency of Vancouver East is concerned, one of the greatest problems is to provide senior citizens housing at a price our senior citizens can afford to pay. I have had a particular interest in this matter for many years because through my late father the first senior citizens' housing program was established in the dominion in Burnaby under his vision. By legislative law in British Columbia I am a life-long trustee of that New Vista housing project.
Mr. Chairman, this it the point I want to draw to the attention of the Minister of Public Works. I would like to ask him what plans he may have in mind with regard to senior citizens' housing, using money available under this bill. And may I tell the minister that as far as my own experience of senior citizens' housing is concerned with the present cost of construction, and if you get your land free-a $1 charge by the municipality-and if you get one third of the capital cost from your provincial government, and if you get your mortgage money from Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation at 1 per cent above the borrowing power of the government; if you get all that you cannot supply a good housing apartment today to an old age pensioner under $35 to $37.50 a month.
With a pension of $55, if the municipality gives you the land for free-$1-and if the government gives you one third of the capital cost as a grant, and if Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation give you, as they do- and I compliment them for it-a mortgage at 1 per cent above the government's borrowing rate, you cannot supply housing to old age pensioners under $35 to $37.50 a month. If I had time I could prove that from the record of the New Vista housing project, and we are credited by Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation as being one of the best builders in Canada on this type of project.
I would like to ask the Minister of Public Works how much of the money which is going to be granted under this bill will be applied to building homes or apartments for the senior citizens of our country. I would like to ask the minister whether he does not

agree that the federal government has a responsibility in this matter of senior citizens' housing the same as provincial authorities. I give all credit to this government and the previous Liberal government which brought the act into effect, and for providing a low interest rate on mortgages for these people. But I would like to ask the minister whether he does not think the federal government has a responsibility too.
If the municipality provides the land for $1 and if the provincial government concerned will grant one third of the capital cost, should not the federal government at least meet, or partially meet, the outright capital grant of the provincial government as a non-profit operation to house the senior citizens of our country? If the federal government does not think so, then on the basis of my understanding that we have not constructed senior citizens houses now for the last four years, today you cannot construct anything on a straight operational basis without a grant under $55 a month. Because four years ago with all inspections, provincial, municipal and federal, having the prop-perty given free, with a one third grant and low interest rate from Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation, we could not do it under $37.50.
I am advised that in British Columbia there are hundreds on the waiting list at each one of these senior citizens housing projects. Mr. Chairman, since I have arrived in Ottawa I have received letters almost daily from British Columbia asking how people can get into these low rental senior citizens housing projects. I will put it this way again: Does the minister not think that the federal government has a responsibility beyond the present law whereby non-profit senior citizens housing projects can be constructed offering mortgages at 1 per cent over and above the borrowing power of the government? Does the minister not think the government has a responsibility to meet, at least in part, the outright capital grant of provincial governments? Does he not think it has a responsibility to meet, again in part, municipalities who grant land upon the payment of $1?
Would the minister be good enough to say, because I know of his interest in this matter before he became a minister, what his attitude is now; what he thinks can be done on behalf of senior citizens; whether he thinks it is possible to have the federal government provide a capital grant in this matter; how much of the money he is now asking for will go toward senior citizens housing; and will he tell us whether his ideologies and principles have now become subservient to

a balanced budget? I am referring to talks which the Minister of Public Works and I had before he was made minister, and I would hate to have to say that the principles of my hon. friend in the matter of senior citizens have changed from one side of the house to the other.


David James Walker: Mr. Chairman, I want to thank the hon. member for Vancouver East for his remarks, and I can truthfully say from listening to him that he has a profound knowledge of limited dividends. It is also a fact, which I wish to confirm too, that his father was a pioneer in British Columbia in this very important field.
May I say to the hon. member for Vancouver East that the contribution of British Columbia of one third of the total cost of a limited dividend project should go a long way toward reducing the rent, and the federal government in these circumstances would lend 90 per cent of the balance of the money required at the rate of 5J per cent which is one eighth of one per cent more than we can borrow the money for at the present time. We know of no better projects than limited dividend projects to house our senior citizens, and these people deserve all that such projects do for them-the kind of units that are built. As the hon. member knows, the rent payable by the tenant is just as low as one can fix a rent so that a 5 per cent net dividend is obtained by the owner of the project.
By way of comparison with the rest of the dominion, there have been a surprising number of projects for the elderly undertaken in the province of British Columbia-569 units at the end of 1959. I trust the hon. member may be instrumental in our receiving this year applications for further such projects for the elderly, and we shall be very glad to entertain those applications.
I know that the hon. member has a point, and that an elderly citizen living in one of these projects cannot afford to pay the rent if his sole income is his old age pension. With great respect, this is one of the sad aspects of life. There are certain elderly citizens who have nothing or more to live on than their old age pensions. However, I think the hon. member for Vancouver East would be one of the first to realize that this is more than a housing problem which he is raising with me at the moment. It is a problem which involves welfare, not only federal, but provincial and municipal welfare as well. He is aware of what the dominion government has attempted to do in the welfare field through the hospital act, and the solution must be found through a combination of low rents under limited dividend 79951-0-135i
National Housing Act
projects plus assistance from the welfare organizations so as to take care of the senior citizens in whose welfare the hon. member takes such an interest.


Harold Edward Winch: I am sure the minister understands that in the case of the projects in which I am particularly interested, the interest rate when we started was only 3J per cent or 3J per cent. The rate of interest increased as we went forward with our projects. I would point out that we cannot take into residence anyone who receives more than the allowance of a senior citizen, at rents more or less established by Central Mortgage and Housing. We do not establish the rent basis. That is done by Central Mortgage and Housing itself and we are inspected once a year so that the authorities can make sure that we live up to that agreement. That is why we are completely tied.
We have not built anything now for four years and the best we can do in the way of rent is, I think, $37.50 a month. In these circumstances, how are the senior citizens getting by? That is the reason I got up. I gather from what the minister said that he is cognizant of this matter and I presume he hopes to bring in some plan for further senior housing development. Is that what I gather?


David James Walker: I hoped I had made myself clear. We appreciate the problem which the hon. member raises. At the moment I am considering the housing bill. As to what other contribution we can make by way of welfare assistance, that will be a matter for the government as a whole to determine. Nevertheless, I would be very glad to take up with the senior officials of my department the problems which the hon. member has outlined, namely the desirability of establishing an even lower rent than the one considered to be a low one at the present time with regard to senior citizens' houses. But, of course, no rent is low to a person who cannot afford it.


Jacques Flynn: Before we go further, I think I should tell hon. members that in my view they cannot expect to have the same latitude in the discussion in committee as they have been allowed on second reading. Up to now some of the comments made with reference to the operation of the act as amended by the bill, or as not amended by the committee, appear to the straying a good deal from the subject under discussion, and I would therefore ask the co-operation of all members of the committee to see that we discuss the bill before us and nothing else.

National Housing Act


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Would the minister mind telling us how the present interest rate on limited dividend housing compares with that which was in existence at the time his government took office?


David James Walker: We will be glad to look that up. I just want to say, in passing, that when we raised the interest on loans for housing we did not raise the rate on limited dividend projects. The hon. member for Vancouver East will be glad to hear that.


Harold Edward Winch: What is the present rate?


David James Walker: Five and seven-eighths per cent.


Harold Edward Winch: When we started, it was 3J per cent.


David James Walker: I think it was even lower than that at the beginning.


Harold Edward Winch: 
David James Walker: In January, 1957, just before the deluge, it was 4J per cent. It is 5| per cent now.


Harold Edward Winch: Is it still the principle of the department that on the homes of senior citizens no more than 1 per cent above the borrowing rate to the government should be paid?


David James Walker: On limited dividend projects it is i per cent above our borrowing rate. The rate is fixed every six months. I remember fixing it not long ago.


Maurice Bourget: Could the minister tell us how many homes were built in 1959, 1958 and in the last half of 1957 with the aid of conventional loans in which C.M.H.C. did not participate?


David James Walker: I will be happy to have that information looked up.


Chesley William Carter: Mr. Chairman, I have three questions which I should like to put to the minister on this clause. My first question has to do with small homes for fishermen. Last Friday the minister held up in his hand a pamphlet which he said had to do with the minimum home. I am not sure whether or not that home was especially designed to meet the needs of fishermen but I should be grateful if the minister could tell us how many of the homes have been built in Newfoundland during the last year and the year before, that is 1958 and 1959 separately?
My second question has to do with the position of the province with respect to housing agreements. There are rumours circulating in Newfoundland to the effect that the federal government will not sign any further agreements with respect to housing
[The Chairman.]
with the provincial government until certain actions now before the civil courts have been disposed of. I should be grateful if the minister would clarify what the position is in that respect.
My third question is based on an announcement made by the Minister without Portfolio for Newfoundland a few days ago. As a foundation for my question I should like to quote the first two paragraphs of this press release which is dated Ottawa, March 7:
Approval to investigate a proposed land assembly project involving some 500 acres on the eastern outskirts of St. John's, Newfoundland, was announced here today by Hon. W. J. Browne on behalf of the Hon. David J. Walker, minister responsible for the operations of the federal housing agency, Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation.
The investigation into the project will include an examination of acquisition costs, planning studies and a schedule of development. If it is decided to proceed, the development will be arranged under section 36 of the National Housing Act and the slum clearance act, 1950, Newfoundland. Cost of the project would be shared 75 per cent by the federal government and 25 per cent by the city of St. John's, which would act as agent for the province and assume the full provincial share of costs.
It is the last sentence on which I would like clarification.


Jacques Flynn: Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member but I indicated a moment ago that I thought these questions were not relevant to the bill. They could be discussed when the estimates of the department come before us. Questions should relate to the bill before the committee and not to the general application of the act.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, with the greatest possible respect, all three of my hon. friend's questions have precisely to do with the question of the purposes for which these loans are to be made. Surely, it is extraordinary that we should be asked to approve a bill to increase vastly the amount of money to be loaned and be denied the chance to question the minister under whose department these loans are to be made about the people to whom the loans are to be made.
In all three of my hon. friend's questions these points were involved. In one of the questions the point was raised whether a different policy would be pursued in one province as opposed to the other provinces in respect of these loans.


Jacques Flynn: I cannot accept the comments of the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate. If the discussion had taken place at the resolution stage or on second reading possibly the question would have been applicable but hon. members at this stage cannot expect to raise questions that concern the entire housing problem in Canada, and have

them considered relevant. It is my definite view that these questions are out of order.


Erhart Regier: Mr. Chairman, may I speak to the point of order. I feel that this is a serious matter that has been raised. After all, we are now in the committee stage and are discussing whether or not we ought to vote the minister more money on two different counts, one on the operations of Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation itself and the other a question of whether the government or the corporation should be permitted to add to the number of insured loans.
If we are being asked to vote more money for the home branch of Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation, I see no purpose in having a committee stage unless in that committee stage we are able to inquire of the minister and receive replies as to the expenditures that are taking place in this department to which we are being asked to grant $500 million more money. That is a lot of money even in terms of the budget of the federal government. I feel the whole intent of the committee stage is lost if we are denied the right to question these expenditures.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Chairman, on the point of order, you have suggested that this type of thing could be brought up on second reading, but with great respect, if those questions were asked on second reading there would be no possibility of the minister giving an immediate reply to them. In the committee stage the minister has his officials before him and can get the facts from them. This is exactly the time when we should ask questions as to how the money is to be spent.


David James Walker: Mr. Chairman, could I beg your indulgence and be permitted to answer the questions in spite of your ruling? I shall be very glad to do so if I may.
The hon. member for Burin-Burgeo asked about the fisherman's house. After going around the fishing villages of Newfoundland and finding out about this, I must confess that as far as I am aware there have not been in the fishing villages any applications for these homes. The people there feel that if they are going to get a new home they do not want to be confined to one costing $5,000. They want homes with plumbing and other conveniences and one can appreciate that. I must say the minimum house certainly has not sold well in Newfoundland.
I am glad the hon. member asked his second question. I think very highly of Mayor Mews of St. John's. It is true that we have two lawsuits pending with the province of Newfoundland, one of them concerning Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation. I have arranged with Mayor Mews to have the Royal
National Housing Act
Bank guarantee the payment for which the province is responsible and, as well, the city of St. John's has made itself responsible so we are no longer dependent on a provincial government upon which we have not been able to depend in the past. We are going ahead at a cost of 75 per cent to ourselves to investigate a very important land assembly project in connection with St. John's where there is a great dearth of housing at the present time.


Mr.   Carier@: Mr. Chairman, although the minister answered my first question he did not make clear whether the rumours I referred to are with or without foundation. Is it a fact that no agreements are being signed with the provincial government until these actions are disposed of? Is that the position? His answer would seem to indicate that.


David James Walker: As a matter of fact there would be no agreement in any event until this matter is investigated concerning the land assembly project. As to what the future holds, I would not be in a position to say at the moment because it would depend on circumstances at that time.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, perhaps I could direct a supplementary question to the minister on this highly important point. Is the minister telling us he has not made up his mind whether or not he is going to discriminate against one province? Is that what we are to understand by his answer?


David James Walker: Mr. Chairman, it is not a question of discrimination. In Newfoundland we have bent over backwards to assist. Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation is a very important and flourishing development there. It is not a question of discrimination when one realizes that the province of Newfoundland without any colour of right is withholding more than $400,000 owing to Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation on matters-[DOT]
Mrr. Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman,-


David James Walker: Would the hon. member let me finish the sentence?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, I raise a point of order at this time. I raise a point of order and I am sure the Minister of Public Works would quite agree that-


David James Walker: You can when I finish my sentence if you do not mind.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I am raising a point of order about the sentence the minister is in the course of uttering.


David James Walker: You do not want to hear the truth.

National Housing Act


John Whitney Pickersgill: My point is that if the minister is discussing something that is now before the courts I should like a ruling before he begins that discussion whether it is a subject that we as well as the minister can discuss.


David James Walker: I can assure the hon. member-[DOT]


The Deputy Chairman:: Order. I am sure that the minister, being a learned member of the bar, would not undertake to discuss a matter of that kind.


David James Walker: I can assure the hon. member that the matter of the $400,000 owing by the province of Newfoundland to Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation has no relation to the lawsuit.


Chesley William Carter: Will the minister explain what is involved by the city of St. John's acting as agent for the province? Is that agreement signed between the federal government and the municipality? Does the city undertake provincial responsibilities in this regard?


David James Walker: Under this particular section of the act the agreement is ordinarily made between the province and the dominion but here the province has appointed the city of St. John's as agent and the signing will be done by the city of St. John's and the federal government. Does that answer the question?


Mr. Martin (Timmins):: At this stage I should like to ask the minister to clarify something. He gave us some figures for the months of December, January and February in the last two years. In December, 1958, there were 579 loans by loan and trust companies compared with 117 in December, 1959. In January, 1959 there were 516 loans compared with 140 in January, 1960. In February, 1959 there were 1,043 compared with 550 in February, 1960. That is a total of 2,138 last year compared with 807 this year or a decrease of 1,331 or 62 per cent.
With regard to housing loans by banks the picture is even more serious for the same months. There were 900 in December, 1958 compared with 17 in December, 1959; 670 in January, 1959 compared with 11 in January, 1960; and 883 in February, 1959 compared with 6 in February of 1960. That is a total decrease of 2,419 or 99 per cent. Taking these two fields, there is an average decrease of 82 per cent in one year for those three months. Could the minister let us have the complete over-all picture with respect to all approved lenders' loans made in those three months of the two years so that we can see how the figures compare?


David James Walker: Mr. Chairman, from the first of January to March 11 last year the number of approved loans by life, loan and trust

companies was 1,916; this year the figure is 1,117. During that period last year the banks made 2,419 loans and this year 17. The total for last year up to March 11 was 4,335 and this year it is 1,134.


Azellus Denis: Can the minister tell the committee what is the exact aggregate amount of all loans up to date in respect of which insurance policies have been issued under the act?


David James Walker: The last time I saw the figure, which was over the week end, it was, as I recall, $3.4 billion, but we will look it up and see if we have anything more up to date.


Mr. Batten:: A few moments ago the minister made reference to the minimum home. May I ask him how many of these homes have been built in the other three Atlantic provinces?


David James Walker: We will look that up too.


Maurice Bourget: May I ask the minister if my answer is ready now?


David James Walker: What was the question?


Maurice Bourget: I asked for the number of homes built without C.M.H.C. participation in 1959, 1958 and the last part of 1957. I asked it about five minutes ago.


David James Walker: In 1957 conventional mortgages totalled 35,898.


Maurice Bourget: Is that the last half?


David James Walker: We do not have figures for the last half. Last night, in order to reply to the hon. member for Nipissing, I looked up the number of C.M.H.C. loans for the first six months but I have not looked up conventional loans. Do you want that as well?


Maurice Bourget: If you will.


David James Walker: In 1957 conventional loans totalled 35,898. Those who started their homes with mortgages supplied by their friends and not through any approved lender numbered 35,768. They are usually grouped together. In 1958 the number of conventional loans was 44,744 and starts beyond conventional loans totalled 34,838. In 1959 there were 45,000 conventional loans and 34,900 starts without conventional loans. These figures do not include any N.H.A. figures for approved lenders or for C.M.H.C. loans.


Azellus Denis: At the same time will the minister be good enough to give us a breakdown by provinces of the aggregate amount mentioned a moment ago?


David James Walker: I will have that for you some time tomorrow.


Murdo William Martin: I should like to thank the minister for the figures he gave a moment ago and at the same time to pursue the matter further. Based on the figures the minister gave, there is still a decrease of about 75 per cent. In addition, we have the announced intention of the minister to cut back by 50 per cent the building program of last year. Could the minister tell us on what evidence the government made this decision and if the government feels that the situation is being met? On the one hand, we have a 75 per cent decrease in loans in the first three months of this year compared with last year and on the other hand we have the announced intention of the government to cut back their contribution to the building program by 50 per cent. I have in mind particularly the relationship of the building program to the employment situation and the need of making loans available immediately.
I noticed that the minister said that no builders' loans would be made available until next fall and at that time they would consider whether there was any need to do this. I should also like to know if the minister can inform us whether it is a decision of the Minister of Finance that is preventing proper action. I am sure the minister would like to carry on the very vigorous job done by the previous minister and it certainly does not seem that he is in a position to do so. Could the minister explain the reason for this action? It does not seem that the government is taking a realistic look at the situation at all.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: I wonder if the minister would tell us where he obtained the figure he used in his forecast of last night of 80,000 to 85,000 homes built under conventional loans in 1960? I think he explained this was the best advice he could get from a Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation survey, but when one looks at Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation housing statistics he finds that the most loans ever made under the conventional plan up to 1958 was 44,744. Would the minister explain this jump from 44,744 in 1958 to 80,000 or 85,000 in 1960?


David James Walker: In reply to the hon. member for Trinity, may I say that if he will add the figures up, that is the 45,000 plus 34,900, he will find it comes to around the figure of
80,000.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: What is this figure of 34,900?


David James Walker: If the 80,000 are included in the conventional loans, conventional loans through trust companies, mortgage companies and so on at the conventional rates. They represent also the 34,900 starts that
National Housing Act
have been made with loans obtained from other sources, or without loans at all. In any event, it is all included in the all-inclusive term "conventional loans". If my friend would like to call them anything else, he is welcome to do so. I did say last year we had around 80,000, 79,900. This year, with the banks refraining from lending, except to satisfy a few customers, and doing so at the rate of 6 per cent, there will be a greater demand for conventional loans than there has been in the past.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: I thank the minister for that. What he is saying now is that what he told us last night was not correct. There is a figure of some 30,000 to 40,000 houses started without assistance from lending institutions, mortgage companies and the trust companies, which he did not tell us about.
Last night the minister also forecast that there would be 35,000 N.H.A. starts in 1960. He made this figure up from two components, the first being his guess that the approved lending institutions would make 20,000 N.H.A. loans and his own Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation would make 15,000. I have two questions based on this. First of all, what assurance has the minister the approved lending institutions will make
20,000	loans in 1960? Does he have any survey or any report from them which would indicate this? Second, how does the minister explain the fact that even if that total of 35,000 N.H.A. loans is reached in 1960 this will be the lowest figure in eight years? This is far below anything that has been done by either his government, which boasts so much about so little, or the former government, for years. In fact, one has to turn the clock back to 1951 to equal that number.
What he has just told us, in fact, is that he is driving the Canadian people into a position where they will have to go and get conventional loans, at a high cost, in order to build their houses. How does the minister relate this to his supposed interest in the little man who wants to get a home but who cannot afford the high interest rates? How can he justify the fact he is only planning for 35,000 National Housing Act loans in 1960, which is far below anything that has been done for eight years? Why is he going to force these little Canadian home purchasers, the people who need houses, to go and get their money from the lending institutions, through conventional mortgages, at rates which the minister knows are much higher than N.H.A. rates? He said so proudly earlier that he would not like to see N.H.A. rates fluctuate, but at the same time he is going to force tens of thousands of Canadians

National Housing Act to get smaller loans at higher interest rates and then, because they cannot afford to finish their houses on that basis, they will have to get second and third mortgages and pay 20 per cent or 25 per cent per annum on this money. Is this the present government's policy?


Erhart Regier: I wonder if I might ask the minister a few questions along the same lines as those asked by the hon. member for Trinity. I noticed that on page 1995 of Hansard for March 11, 1960, the minister had this to say:
We have confidence that this rate-
He had reference to the new interest rate of 6|- per cent.
-will attract the approved lenders back into the field.
I should like to ask the minister where he obtained the assurance that these lenders are going to re-enter the field as a result of the rise in interest rates. I believe the minister is aware that his colleague, the Minister of Finance, only yesterday floated a bond issue which would yield to the purchaser 5.99 per cent plus a few added extras that were in there for the benefit of the buyer of the bonds. Is the minister telling us that an investment house is going to show any interest in making an insured loan under this act and be satisfied with 6.75 per cent if it can obtain a bond on the open market and realize 5.99 per cent plus extras? Is he telling us that any company is going to be interested in a difference of .76 of 1 per cent, and is going to be willing to have its money out on loan for as long as 25 years and have operating expenses, collections and everything else that is involved, for this small difference? I think the minister ought now to give us additional assurance, rather than the blanket statement that he has confidence this rate will bring lenders into the field.
All the indications are, as the minister has revealed them, that there has been a reduction in loans of 70 per cent to 85 per cent. We are getting a little confused by the various statistics the minister is giving us, but the indication is fairly clear that there has been a reduction of approximately 75 per cent. Yet the minister says he is expecting about the same level of housing in this year as last year. I should like to ask the minister also how he can account for the mortgage companies or investment houses being willing to make these loans at a rate of 6J per cent, when they could lend out all the money they want to lend out for housing in first class mortgages on their own terms and receive the going rate of 8 per cent. The


minister reads the newspapers, and I know he has read all the reliable accounts in the Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver newspapers indicating that the going rate is 8 per cent. Does he mean to say that these companies are going to show any interest whatever in these long term mortgages at lower interest rates?
I think the minister, if he will take us into his confidence, will have to make the admission that housing and the other social needs of the Canadian people simply cannot compete on the open money market with industrial enterprises for the available investment capital of the nation. We are only deluding ourselves if we imagine that by raising the interest rate a little bit, which makes it far too high for the low income people to pay and yet not nearly high enough to produce the money, we are going to make this field attractive to the private companies. We will find that the Canadian people who need housing the most have had to sacrifice their housing needs, not in order to help the Minister of Finance balance his budget but to help him out in his predicament in regard to his cash position.
I realize the minister is right when he says this has nothing to do with the budget. We realize it may have very little to do with balancing the budget but it certainly has a great deal to do with the cash position of the government of Canada at the present time. I should like the minister at this time to present us with some evidence or some indication of why he says he is confident that this rate will attract the lenders back to this field. I am sure the minister must have some reason for making such a claim and that it is not merely based on political optimism.


David James Walker: I do not know how many times we have to explain these things to the hon. member for Burnaby-Coquitlam. I am glad to see that he is another example of conflict in that party. He would like to see a higher rate than 6| per cent.


Erhart Regier: I said no such thing. It is the minister who is making that statement.


David James Walker: 
Hazen Robert Argue: That is a lie.


David James Walker: You have not indicated which rate you would prefer. Tell us what rate you prefer.


Hazen Robert Argue: Three per cent.


David James Walker: Three per cent for the leader and more than 6J per cent for all the rest of the party.


Hazen Robert Argue: That is another lie.


David James Walker: The hon. member for Assini-boia should stick to wheat. He becomes more ridiculous as the hours pass.


Hazen Robert Argue: This is the most discourteous member of the cabinet.


David James Walker: May the hon. member not lose his temper.


Hazen Robert Argue: Who is losing his temper?


David James Walker: He also suggested that I was good-natured as well and very genial. I hope he does not change that opinion in this committee.


Hazen Robert Argue: Just stick to the truth for a change.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


David James Walker: The hon. member must be a good farmer. I am sure he has a model farm. Some time I am going out to look at it, because he must be specializing in something but certainly it has not been housing.
May I now answer the hon. member for Trinity? It is a wonderful thing to hear him, an aristocratic builder in Toronto who appeals to the people in the big money brackets, talking for the first time today about the poor unfortunate people. He is the one who has suggested to the House of Commons that we should not have a fixed rate of 6} per cent but that we should have a floating rate of 7J per cent or 7J per cent, the same as on the conventional loans. The interjections of
National Housing Act
the hon. member for Trinity remind me of the time when he was in the house making somewhat the same plea on behalf of Avro. I do not know whom he is representing now but certainly he himself is a builder and represents the big interests in building.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


David James Walker: I do not think the suggestion he makes here requires an answer except by the poor unfortunate people in whom he is for the first time showing an interest.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Yesterday when I spoke in this committee I did so in a completely constructive vein and I am disappointed-


David James Walker: You changed today.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Yes; I have changed today. I am disappointed that the minister, instead of paying some attention to the constructive suggestions I put forward, embarked on a course of recrimination and political haymaking.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Personalities.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: His wind-up speech last night was political and not factual. In it there were figures which had distortions, as he told us today, of 100 per cent. He said the same type of thing on television last night. How he managed to get on television and to make that bland, fatuous assurance to the Canadian people, I have no knowledge whatsoever. But I admit that I am disappointed. We were trying to help him to resolve a situation or mess which his government got him into. Instead of being grateful for the assistance he has turned on us and has tried to make us look as though we were not interested in the Canadian people.


David James Walker: Are you?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: We certainly are. Let me just indicate one or two of the things the minister has commented on. He chided me for suggesting that the banks should be allowed to make National Housing Act loans. I make no apology for this suggestion. As a matter of fact, I think the minister is protecting the banks. I think he is back to the old Conservative policy of protecting the vested interests.


David James Walker: You are a childish little boy.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: The truth of the matter is that the banks do not want to make N.H.A. loans at the present time and they are using this government as a shield. What is actually happening, as I understand it, is the following. A little buyer in one of these small towns all across the country goes in to the bank manager and says, "I should like to get a loan; I want a loan under the N.H.A." The

National Housing Act
bank manager says to him, "Mr. Smith, I should like to make you an N.H.A. loan; nothing would give me greater pleasure; but unfortunately I cannot do it because it is government policy that the banks are not permitted to make N.H.A. loans at the current interest rate. Of course, if the government changes its policy and amends the act, I shall be pleased to send in an application for a loan for you right away but at the present time I am not able to do so and no one is sorrier than I am."
Mr. Chairman, you will recall that last summer, the Prime Minister made a statement about the banks which did not please them at all. There are some bankers who would like to make N.H.A. loans but there are some-a small minority-who never have enjoyed being in the business and who do not want to get back into it again. These are the most conservative bankers, and they are now asking for protection from my hon. friend and his colleagues.
The real point of this whole matter, however, is that the loans which the banks do not make to their small customers in the little towns all across the country will have to be made by someone else, and the someone else will make them at a higher rate than 6| per cent or 6f per cent, let there be no mistake about that. The loans will be from the insurance companies at 7J per cent or 8 per cent and they will be from other lending sources in the small towns at 9 per cent or 10 per cent and on second and third mortgages once again at this exorbitant interest-shark rate of 15 per cent, 20 per cent or 25 per cent per annum. Is this what the government is trying to accomplish?
Surely suggesting means whereby individual borrowers from coast to coast may have additional offices in which they can apply for and obtain N.H.A. loans is in the interests of the Canadian people. I am surprised and disappointed that my hon. friend would impute any motives because it is beneath him to do so. It is beneath him to suggest that I ever had anything but the best interests of the Canadian people and the workers at Avro at heart when I spoke on their behalf. I have never been on the payroll of any company other than the one for which I was working in my whole life. I resent the minister or anyone else making false accusations against me.
The minister has not answered my question [DOT]-and I wish he would do so-as to what makes him think the approved lenders this year will make 20,000 loans. After he has given us some assurance on that score, he has still to tell us why, when there were 85,000 N.H.A. loans in 1958, it is going to be sufficient to have 35,000 N.H.A. loans in 1960.

Why the decrease of 50,000 N.H.A. loans? Is this what the Canadian people want? Are there 50,000 less Canadians who are going to need N.H.A. assistance in 1960 than there were in 1958, or is it the policy of the government to make the 50,000 Canadains go out into the market and borrow their money at higher interest rates?


Erhart Regier: Mr. Chairman, I cannot allow the minister's statement in regard to my attendance to remain unanswered. I would like to place the minister in the position of one of us in our group where, instead of having to handle only one third of the opposition, he would have three cabinet ministers plus hundreds of senior advisers to handle. I can assure the minister that I have spent more hours on the subject of housing since the house opened than the minister has, and even though I may not have been in the house during every moment of the last few days, I have been organizing the housing debate on behalf of our group and I know every word that the minister has uttered in this house on the question of housing. I have before me notes of what the minister has had to say and they are covered with ink. I could speak for hours and hours on some of the faulty impressions which the minister created on this subject of housing, but I will not.
I do want to clear up very definitely what our policy is with regard to interest rates for housing. The minister has on a number of occasions said that members of this group advocate a higher interest rate for housing, but the minister has no evidence of that fact. As a matter of fact, last night he said that my colleague, the hon. member for Skeena, had advocated an even higher interest rate, but let me inform the minister that that hon. member has not yet said one word in this debate. So the minister was completely off the beam there.
However, I do contend that it is the actions of the government which are forcing people to pay 8 per cent, and on second mortgages as high as a yield of 30 per cent, in order to obtain the capital required for their housing needs. The minister has explained to the house exactly what will happen to an applicant for an N.H.A. loan. In the first instance the minister seemed worried about the 82,000 homes which obviously have not found a buyer yet, and first of all the applicant is going to be sent to look over these 82,000 homes. That is an odd attitude for a government to take. Why should the government in the face of continuously rising costs of housing and rentals attempt to come to the aid of those who have, unfortunately, built homes for which there may not be a ready market? The government is now going to bail out these

builders and force all the would-be home owners to go and look over 82,000 homes now on the market. This is-


David James Walker: Mr. Chairman, I do not want my hon. friend to be under any misconception. There is no fault in the 82,000 homes. They are not completed and therefore could not be sold. They are coming on to the market.


Erhart Regier: Even if they are uncompleted, it is a new attitude for the government to take to advise a Canadian citizen that the blessings of the act shall not extend to him or be extended to him until he has seen whether or not he can accommodate himself in one of these houses now being built. If the proposed 82,000 homes are unacceptable to the would-be buyer, the minister told us that the applicant will then have to go to an approved lender, and after having been turned down by this lender, if the man's income is low enough and he satisfies several other qualifications, I might say not inconsiderable qualifications, then and only then will the government give serious consideration, not to allowing him to buy an N.H.A. mortgage- oh no-but to allowing him the privilege of applying for one of these direct loans.
The minister can see for himself the stumbling blocks the government is setting up for the would-be home owner in Canada which are going to force most of the people in Canada to go to the regular lending institutions to get help for their housing needs. There they will have to pay these excessively high interest rates which, in view of the high capital cost of housing today, the average working man and woman of Canada is completely unable to afford. It is another beautiful handout by this government to the moneylenders of Canada, and the people of Canada who need housing loans at a modest rate of interest are in fact being asked to help the Minister of Finance balance his cash position by the time the budget is presented to this house.
I should also like to refer the minister to resolution No. 30 on the order paper in my name on behalf of this group. After calling for a national investment board, we ask that the board shall, among other things-
Make capital available at an interest rate of not more than 3 per cent for socially necessary projects such as housing and development requirements of municipalities.
That has always been our position, that capital should be made available at or near cost, and if necessary at a subsidized interest rate to meet the housing needs of the Canadian people.


Harold Edward Winch: Mr. Chairman, just a few brief comments. I got the impression from the hon. member for Trinity that there must be as
National Housing Act
many views of bank managers as there are of hon. members in this house. After listening to the hon. member I can tell him that, although I may be a proletariat member of this house, I also do a lot of checking, investigating and talking, and in Vancouver the bank managers told me that there was one reason only that they were not lending money, and that was because they did not have the money to lend.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: If the hon. member reads my speech of last night he will read the qualification I put in. I had said that there were individual exceptions where loans would be made, and they could at least make them or not make them at their own discretion, which is what they cannot do now.


Harold Edward Winch: I am talking of what the hon. member said ten minutes ago. Believe it or not, I am on pretty darned good terms with bank managers because I do not borrow from them.
I would like to ask the Minister of Public Works a couple of questions under clause 1 which are of importance, I think, and I hope the minister can give the answers. In view of the bill before us and the amount of money which is being asked for, has the minister or his staff in front of him any information as to what are now the construction costs of homes as compared with about a year or two years ago, and also the cost of rents in the last year or two? The reason I ask is that if there has been an increase in the cost of construction of homes in the last 12 or 24 months and also an increase in rents over that same period, would it have any bearing in the minister's mind on the need for a greater expansion in home and apartment construction? If so, how does he relate that to a reduction in the amount of money which is being made available under this bill? Would the minister mind answering those questions?


David James Walker: In reply to my hon. friend for Vancouver East, there was some increase in 1959 in the cost of dwellings financed under the act. Land costs were up about 3 per cent, bringing the cost of the average lot to $2,533. That is, N.H.A. loans from Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation. Construction costs per square foot increased by 2.6 per cent with little change in area. These increases brought the average cost of houses built by builders or owners in 1959 to $13,181 under the small home loans arrangements, and $15,896 for dwellings financed by approved lenders.


Harold Edward Winch: I recognize the minister's sincerity. In view of that, is the hon. gentleman, or his department, or any phase of

National Housing Act
government, to his knowledge giving any thought to taking action to stop speculation on subdivisions, and buying and selling lots acquired under the terms of the National Housing Act? I know for a fact that the price of lots has gone up from $250 to $3,000. Is there no control over the money which is advanced under N.H.A. especially if it is being used to pay for land acquired under a speculative building program? I read day after day about what is happening outside Toronto, for instance, where farms are being sold for $500,000, a million dollars and so on. Has the minister or his department any control over that at all?


David James Walker: Unfortunately that is a matter of property and civil rights over which the dominion government has no control. The costs do constitute a problem for Central Mortgage and Housing. As the hon. member says, many people have made fortunes by buying farms and dividing them. It makes our problem difficult, because a much higher percentage of the ordinary man's capital has to go toward paying for a lot.


Harold Edward Winch: Is there any public control over this, or does the matter fall completely under provincial jurisdiction?


David James Walker: I fear it does.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Did the minister just say he wished they had control over property and civil rights?


David James Walker: Central Mortgage and Housing would sometimes like to have that so that we could hold down the price of lots and put the money into the actual construction of homes. It is just a whim. I am not suggesting we should change the British North America Act.


William Moore Benidickson: I am exceedingly disappointed that the minister seems to be taking so casual a view about the importance in the past of the commercial banks in the housing lending field. While he is sneering not only at the hon. member for Trinity, and others who made constructive suggestions to him and is sneering at the previous administration, I suggest he should do some homework and take a look at some of the activities in connection with N.H.A. loans before he assumed responsibility. The hon. gentleman does not need to take my word as to what went on in 1957. I suggest, in relation to lending by the banks that he would find a good tip by reading what was reported by the governor of the Bank of Canada who reported to the new Minister of Finance in 1958 with respect to the activities of the bank before the election in 1957.

If the minister will read what appears on page 28 of the Bank of Canada report for 1957 he will find that it seems the commercial banks were reluctant to take proper responsibility with respect to lending for house construction in this country then despite the change in the Bank Act which was made in 1954 to enable them to do so. This is what the governor of the Bank of Canada had to say about what was done at that time, and I suggest that the minister might study this report carefully, because some action of the same kind might be taken at the present time. I am reading from page 28 of the governor's report for 1957:
In discussing this situation with the chartered banks I expressed the view that they should maintain continuity in mortgage lending as an important field of investment for savings entrusted to them. At a meeting in March the banks agreed to resume operations m this field on much the same scale as in 1956, the objective being new housing loans in 1957 in a total amount of not less than $150 million, involving approximately 15,000 units; the Bank of Canada indicated that the total resources of the banks as a group could be expected to increase during 1957 by an amount at least great enough to take care of their disbursements on mortgage loans in that year, so that it would not be necessary for the banks to dispose of other assets in order to maintain a flow of funds for insured housing loans. In the event, the banks approved 15,700 mortgage loans during 1957 valued at $173 million-
I suggest, as the hon. member for Trinity has suggested, that the chartered banks of this country are the lenders who can be reached by the residents in the countless small towns of Canada. There are hundreds and hundreds of branch banks across this country in places in which other approved housing lenders like the mortgage companies and the insurance companies have no interest whatever. But the banks now are not making a contribution to the construction of houses. In addition-


David James Walker: May I ask the hon. member a question? The hon. member for Trinity complained that I was a friend of the banks. The hon. member for Kenora-Rainy River says I am sneering at the banks. I appreciate the role of the banks, and I regret very much that at the present time-


William Moore Benidickson: I did not say you were sneering at the banks but rather at their importance as lenders in this field.


David James Walker: Is the hon. member in favour of raising the interest rates of the banks to 6J per cent?


William Moore Benidickson: What I am suggesting is that the minister and Minister of Finance and the governor of the Bank of Canada have a meeting with the banks and do what was done early in 1957, when the banks had departed from the house lending market,

with the result that 15,700 houses were constructed. Alter the meeting, I think, the minister should come back to this chamber and indicate what might be necessary in order that housing loans may be made through the agencies of these banks in small communities all over the country.


David James Walker: At 6J per cent?


William Moore Benidickson: I did not say what the interest rate would be. On the earlier point, I did not say the minister was sneering at the banks. What I did say was that the hon. gentleman gave the impression of sneering at the importance of bank lending in the housing field and sneered at the absence of the banks from this field at the present time.
What has also alarmed me is that the minister says he is not proposing to make direct loans to individual home owners unless they can establish that they are not able to get loans from other approved lenders. This is going to mean a tremendous run-around as far as the communities I represent are concerned. We know they are not going to be able to get any loans in the present climate from commercial banks in any of these communities.


David James Walker: The hon. member must be out of touch. For the last two years we have been doing that; we have been asking applicants for loans to go first to the approved lenders. If the hon. member did not know this, I can only tell him it is a fact.


William Moore Benidickson: I have been well aware of that.


David James Walker: Are you objecting to it?


William Moore Benidickson: No. The point I am making is that the nearest approved lender has been, in fact, in small communities a branch of the chartered banks. People in Kenora-Rainy River have known for some years that it is useless to go, for example, to the city of Winnipeg, which is anywhere between 150 to 300 miles away, to apply to any of the insurance companies expecting them to take an interest in housing loans in a small town. The insurance companies are completely occupied by their lending policies in the large centres where loans can be administered in wholesale quantities much more cheaply than in small towns hundreds of miles distant from head office in major cities.
My point is that the minister has intimated that the banks are out of this field. He gave figures to me on Friday last showing that in February of last year the banks had made 883 loans whereas in February of this year they made only 6 loans.
National Housing Act
In other words, the bank type of approved lender who has proved useful to the dwellers in these small communities is out of business now. My point is that if these people then have to go to another approved lender, presumably an insurance company several hundred miles away from where they live they know they are going to be turned down. But I say the minister is asking them to go through a useless run-around motion before they can go to Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation and ask for a direct loan.


John Richard Garland: Mr. Chairman, I rise at this time to take exception to the remarks made by the minister both in this chamber and outside of it. He has indulged in a complete distortion of facts and has attempted to treat in a political way a very important situation. I am not going to refer to his television performance last evening which I must confess I did not see but I am told that he made a strong political presentation.
Last evening the minister attempted to leave the impression that since this government had taken office and because of the actions of the government 400,000 homes had been built. We have the figures today showing that all the housing, outside of N.H.A. housing, amounted to more than one half of that figure he used last evening. There has been a complete distortion of the facts. The minister last evening also went on to say that due to the winter works program of the Prime Minister 82,000 homes were being built. There is a confusing statement and the minister should not have attempted to drag in the winter works program which has absolutely nothing to do with this subject.
I rose to speak briefly at this time simply because I did not want to let this occasion pass without pointing out these very misleading statements made by the minister who ran out of the chamber in the middle of the debate on second reading to get on a national television network and give a onesided distorted view of the situation.


David James Walker: Mr. Chairman, obviously the hon. member for Nipissing did not hear my broadcast. There were no misstatements. It was very accurate.


Harold Edward Winch: Mr. Chairman, we in this group are most interested in this bill and will support right down the line any expenditure that will aid in the construction of homes in Canada. We are, of course, disappointed in the amount in clause 1 and in what we say we are trying to get explanations of policy from the minister.
I speak from memory, but I believe with respect to insurance that it amounts to 2 per cent of N.H.A. loans. There is something

National Housing Act
in the neighbourhood of $60 million. I believe that is the figure. I understand that the interest return on the operations of the act since its inauguration is considerable. Are the interest payments under the N.H.A. to Central Housing and Mortgage Corporation held in trust and invested in government bonds? Is the insurance which I am told amounts to $60 million held in trust? Could the interest paid on money advanced by N.H.A. up to now which is well over $1 billion and the money from insurance now be applied, not on the investment of government bonds but as a revolving fund for investment in new housing in addition to what the minister is now asking for authority to spend?


David James Walker: Mr. Chairman, in reply to the hon. member, the interest and principal goes back each year to the consolidated revenue fund. It is paid by Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation back to the Receiver General of Canada. In 1958 the return on principal and interest amounted to $71.4 million; in 1958 it amounted to $85.5 million; and in 1959 it amounted to $110 million. There is not a revolving fund. As the money is received it goes back to the consolidated revenue fund.
In connection with the insurance, there is also a trust fund of an additional $63 million,
not $60 million as the hon. member mentioned. It has now reached that figure. That is a very small amount to insure over $3.4 billion worth of loans. After all, this has not been in operation very long.
The whole problem of returning the principal and interest to the consolidated revenue fund was part of the National Housing Act of 1954 and part of the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation Act as well. It was a creation of the former government which seems to be working in the way I described.


Harold Edward Winch: That raises the point I was about to deal with. May I call it six o'clock?
Progress reported.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the house leader would be good enough to indicate whether the order of business announced last night will be the same for tomorrow?


Gordon Minto Churchill: Tomorrow, Mr. Speaker, we will continue with this bill and then take the items which I outlined last night. The business for Friday will depend on the progress we make tomorrow.


[Stage Direction]
At six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.

[Stage Direction]
The following answers, deposited with the Clerk of the house, are printed in the official report of debates pursuant to standing order 39:

Mr. Bourgei: 1.	What is the steaming time, from December 1, 1959 to January 31, 1960, of each of the following icebreakers: C.G.S. d'Iberville, C.G.S. Ernest La-
Questions
pointe, C.G.S. Montcalm, C.G.S. McLean, C.G.S. Wolfe, C.G.S. Saurel, C.G.S. Sir Humphrey Gilbert, C.G.S. Labrador, C.G.S. Tapper, C.G.S. Foster?
2.	How much of this time for each icebreaker was spent escorting vessels in the St. Lawrence river (a) above Quebec city; (b) below Quebec city; (c) in the gulf of the St. Lawrence river?
3.	What is the time spent moored in harbours for each of the above mentioned icebreakers, and in which harbours?
Answer by: Hon. George H. Hees (Minister of Transport):
1 and 2.
Steaming time	Time spent escorting vessels in St, Lawrence river
December 1, 1959,	Above	Below	In gulf ofto January 31, 1960 Quebec city	Quebec city	St. Lawrenced'Iberville	Ernest Lapointe	Montcalm	N.B. MacLean	Wolfe	Saurel	
Sir Humphrey Gilbert,
Labrador	
Tupper	
Walter E. Foster....
227* hrs.
260 hrs.
306 hrs. 14 min. 235 hrs.
536 hrs. 40 min. 233* hrs.
167 hrs. 16 min. Nil
119 hrs. 34 min. 205 hrs. 42 min.
8 hrs.
27 hrs.
*15 hrs. 40 min. 25 hrs.
Nil
Nil
Nil
Nil
Nil
Nil
Nil
Nil
199 hrs. 23 min.
85 hrs.
Nil
Nil
Nil
Nil
Nil
Nil
Nil
Nil
91 hrs. 11 min. Nil
100 hrs. 12'min. 79} hrs.
Nil
Nil
115 hrs.
Nil
* Includes assistance to Levis ferries.
3.
Time spent moored in harbours	Name of harbour
December 1, 1959, to January 31,1960
d'Iberville			Quebec City, Que.
	8 days, 21 hrs.	Three Rivers, Que.
	5 days, 14 hrs.	Sorel, Que.
	7 days	Montreal, Que.
Ernest Lapointe			Three Rivers, Que.
	6 days, 1 hr.	Sorel, Que.
	5 days, 7 hrs.	Montreal, Que.
Montcalm			Quebec city, Que.
	18 hrs., 55 min.	Pointe au Pic, Que.
	13 hrs., 31 min.	Gaspe, Que.
	4 days, 23 hrs., 18 min.	Lauzon dry dock, Que.
N.B. MacLean			Quebec city, Que.
	1 day, 23 hrs.	Three Rivers, Que.
	15 hrs.	Sorel, Que.
	7 days, 11 hrs.	Baie Comeau, Que.
Wolfe			Quebec city (Queen's wharf)
	21 hrs.	Quebec city (Wolfe's cove)
	2 days, 8 hrs.	Three Rivers, Que.
	15 hrs.	Gaspe, Que.
	9 days, 10 hrs., 15 min.	Rimouski, Que.
	2 days, 21 hrs.	Dalhousie, N.B.
	14 hrs.	Chandler, Que.
	7 days	Halifax, N.S.
	14 hrs.	Pictou, N.S.
	1 day, 11 hrs.	Souris, P.E.I.
	8 hrs., 30 min.	Cheticamp, N.S.
	I day, 17 hrs.	Charlottetown, P.E.I.
Questions

Time spent moored in harbours.
Name of harbour
Saurel
Sir Humphrey Gilbert
Labrador
1 day, 12 hrs.
1	day, 12 hrs.
12	hrs.
2	days, 12 hrs.
23 days, 12 hrs.
9 days, 12 hrs.
9 days, 12 hrs.
1 day, 12 hrs.
1	day
2	days, 5 hrs., 15 min. 1 day, 12 hrs., 52 min.
15 hrs., 35 min. 11 hrs., 55 min. 8 hrs.
47 min.
13	hrs., 44 min.
1	hr. 42 min.
49 days,	47 min.
2	hrs., 7 min.
Quebec city, Que.
Three Rivers, Que.
Sorel, Que.
Pictou, N.S.
Pictou, N.S. (refitting) Charlottetown, P.E.I. Souris, P.E.I.
Port aux Basques, Nfld. Bird Rook, Cabot Strait
Port aux Basques, Nfld. Belleoram, Nfld.
OS Belleoram, Nfld. Burin, Nfld.
Carbonear, Nfld. Catalina, Nfld.
Off Brunette, Nfld.
St. Jacques, Nfld.
St. John's, Nfld. Valleyfield, Nfld.
Halifax (annual refit)
Tupper	 2 days, 23 hrs., 15 min.	Rimouski, Que.
11 days, 20 hrs., 30 min.	Charlottetown, P.E.I.
Walter E. Foster	
3 days, 12 hrs., 13 min.	Saint John, N.B. (dry dock)40 days, 14 hrs.,	13 min.	Saint John, N.B.3 days, 2 hrs.,	21 min.	Grand Manan, N.B.2 days,	40 min.	Yarmouth, N.S.


AUTOMOBILES-EXCISE TAX REMOVAL REPRESENTATIONS
Mr. Martin (Essex East): 1.	Has the government, or the Prime Minister, received representations from any organization requesting the removal of the excise tax from Canadian-made automobiles?
2.	If so, from whom have such representations been received?
3.	What reply has been made to such representations?
Answer by:	Hon. Donald M. Fleming
(Minister ol Finance):
1.	Yes.
2.	The Canadian Automobile Chamber of Commerce, the Canadian Manufacturers' Association, the Automotive Part Manufacturers Association.
3.	Representations are being considered.


PUBLIC SERVICE SALARY INCREASES-PROTESTS RESPECTING REFUSAL, WINDSOR
Mr. Martin (Essex East): 1.	Has the government, or the Prime Minister, received representations from the Windsor and district labour council, or any other labour organization (other than civil service staff organizations), protesting the action of the government in refusing salary increases to the civil service?
2.	If so, from what organizations have such representations been received?
3.	Has any reply been made to these representations, and of what nature?
Answer by:	Hon. Donald M. Fleming
(Minister of Finance):
1.	Yes.
2.	Kitchener-Waterloo and district labour council, Toronto and district labour council, Conseil du travail de St. Jerome, Vancouver and district labour council, Sault Ste. Marie and district labour council, Local 535, United electrical, radio and machine workers of America, St. Catharines, United electrical, radio and machine workers of America, Welland, Local 505, United electrical, radio and machine workers of America, Niagara Falls, Local 536, U.E. legislative committee, Niagara Falls, Toronto joint board U.E., Local 524, United electrical, radio and machine workers of America, Peterborough, Local 522, United electrical, radio and machine workers of America, Kingston, Local 195, U.A.W.
3.	Acknowledged, enclosing copy of statement issued by the Minister of Finance on October 13, 1959 on the subject of the request for a general increase in the salaries of civil servants and other persons in the public service, in most cases.

Thursday, March 17, 1960



PRIVILEGES AND ELECTIONS

[Stage Direction]
Second report of standing committee on privileges and elections-Mr. Macquarrie.