1960-03-09

CANADA ELECTIONS ACT


[Stage Direction]
On the order: government notices of motion:
March 7-The Acting Secretary of State-The following proposed motion:-That the standing committee on privileges and elections be empowered to study the Canada Elections Act and the report and evidence of the standing committee on privileges and elections 1959, and to report to the house such proposals as the committee may deem it to be advisable.
Mr. Speaker:: Pursuant to section 2 of standing order 21 this government notice of motion stands transferred to and ordered for consideration under government orders at the next sitting of the house.



STARRED QUESTIONS


Mr. Howard: 1. Is Mr. Allan D. Vance of Prince Rupert, British Columbia an employee or agent of, or in any way connected with, the government or any department or agency thereof?
2.	If so, what are his duties and responsibilities?


Hon. Leon Balcer (Solicitor General):: Mr. Speaker, the answer to the first question is no. The answer to the second is, not applicable.


UNEMPLOYMENT STUDY, NOVA SCOTIA
Mr. Marlin (Essex East): 1.	Has the government of the province of Nova Scotia requested the federal government to join in a study of the unemployment problem?
2.	If so, when was such a request made and what reply, if any, has been made?


Hon. Michael Starr (Minister of Labour):: Mr. Speaker, the answer to the first question is yes.
In reply to the second question, such a request for a study of seasonal unemployment in the province of Nova Scotia was made in a letter to me from Hon. Stephen T. Pyke, minister of labour of the province of Nova Scotia, dated February 5, 1960. A reply was sent to Mr. Pyke on February 17, 1960 by me. The reply advised that the federal Department of Labour would be prepared to cooperate with the province in such a study. 79951-0-119J



ARMED FORCES


Mr. Smith (Simcoe North): 1.	Since July 18, 1959 has any change been made in the method of payment for necessary moves of the household goods of service personnel when such moves are local or station moves?
2.	If so, what changes have been made?


Hon. G. R. Pearkes (Minister of National Defence):: In answer to question 1, Mr. Speaker, there have been changes; yes.
In reply to the second question, prior to February 11, 1960 service personnel were reimbursed for the actual expenses incurred in connection with local movement of household goods. Under the new regulations servicemen are limited now to an allowance of $75 to cover these costs, but in exceptional circumstances authority may be granted for the reimbursement of expenses in excess of this amount.



FEDERAL PAYMENTS TO PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENTS

Mr. Pickersgill: 1.	Has there been an increase in federal payments to the provincial governments between the fiscal years 1956-57 and 1958-59 and, if so, how much?
2.	How much of such increase is attributable to
(a)	legislation enacted before June 21, 1957; (b) legislation enacted since June 21, 1957?
3.	Is any portion of this amount for the federal share of hospital insurance and, if so, how much?


Hon. Donald M. Fleming (Minister of Finance):: Mr. Speaker, pursuant to standing order 39, subsection 5, I wish to state that in my opinion the reply to these questions should be in the form of a return, and I have no objection to laying such return upon the table of the house.


Mr. Pickersgill:: Mr. Speaker, on a question of privilege, I wonder if I could ask the minister whether he would be agreeable to having the return printed as an appendix to Hansard.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, the return is not yet available. I do not think I can be called upon to answer that question until we see what the return is and whether it is suitable for inclusion in the printed record of the house. I think the hon. gentleman's question might stand till the return is ready for tabling.

Starred Questions


John Whitney Pickersgill: Perhaps the minister, then, would table the return in the house.


Mr. Speaker:: Question stands as an order for return.



MOTOR MECHANIC RATE INCREASES, ESQUIMALT, B.C.

Mr. Martin (Essex East): 1.	Has treasury board approved an increase in prevailing rates for motor mechanics in the naval motor transport garage, Esquimalt, British Columbia?
2.	If so, is this increase retroactive and to what date?
3.	Did the Department of Labour and/or the Department of National Defence recommend any date as to which this increase would be retroactive?
4.	If so, what was the date recommended?
5.	Was the increase based on any union agreement relating to the area in question?
6.	If so, upon what date was the union agreement signed?
7.	Has any request been received that the increase should be retroactive to May 1, 1959?
8.	If so, what reply has been given?


Hon. Pierre Sevigny (Associate Minister of National Defence):: The answer to the first question is, yes; the answer to the second question is, retroactive to November 1, 1959, the answer to the third question is, yes; the answer to the fourth question is, retroactive to May 1,	1959; the
answer to the fifth question is, yes; and the answer to the sixth question is, May 1, 1959.
In answer to question No. 7, no request has been received by the department regarding the class "motor mechanic". However, a recent request has been received requesting a change in the effective date for heavy equipment mechanic, one of the other classes employed in the naval motor transport garage.
The answer to question No. 8 is that no reply has been made to this request.



EXPORTS TO JAPAN, 1958-59

Mr. Mcllraiih: What was the dollar value of Canadian sales of (a) wheat: (b) flour; (c) rye, to Japan in each of the years 1958 and 1959?


Hon. Gordon Churchill (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: The answer to this question is as follows:
1958	1959
Wheat	
$62,773,140	$69,164,925Flour	
932,750	2,169,843
In the case of rye, the answer is nil in respect of both years.
(Mr. Fleming (Eglinton).]



JAPANESE RESTRICTIONS ON EXPORTS TO CANADA

Mr. Mcllraiih: 1.	What products exported by Japan to Canada are subject to Japanese restraints of restrictions for the year 1960?
2.	What was the value of each of these products entering Canada from Japan in 1959, and what is the quota for each product for 1960?
3.	What was the basis of arriving at the quotas established for 1960?


Donald Methuen Fleming: The answer to all three questions is that consultations concerning Japanese export restrictions during 1960 are still in progress.



EARTH SATELLITE EXPENDITURES

Mr. Argue: 1.	What is the total cost (including salaries) of
the earth satellite being prepared by the defence research board (a) up to February 1, 1960;	(b)
estimated to completion of the project in November, 1961?
2.	What percentage of the estimated full cost of the project (including the rocket) will be borne by the United States of America?
3.	What is the application of this project to defence research in Canada?


George Randolph Pearkes: 1.	The estimated cost of this project is approximately $750,000 of which approximately $200,000 has been spent up to February 1, 1960. These figures are approximations, as it is not possible in a research laboratory to separate accurately the costs of manpower, materials and equipment devoted to one project from those applied to other projects.
2.	Information concerning costs being borne by the United States for launching rockets, launching facilities and other equipment and manpower relating to this project is not available. However, it is expected that these costs will exceed considerably the Canadian expenditure.
3.	This is a research project to study ionized layers of the atmosphere at heights of 200 to 700 miles above the earth. The information sought is of basic scientific interest, and is applicable to problems of long distance radio communication and to calculation of track accuracy of long range radars.



COLUMBIA RIVER DEVELOPMENT


Mr. Benidickson: 1.	Has any estimate for the capital cost of the Columbia river development been reached?
2.	Has the government of British Columbia made a request to the federal government for a capital cost-sharing arrangement for the Columbia river development? If so, what was the reply made by the federal government?
3.	If any cost-sharing arrangement for this project has been worked out between the federal government and British Columbia, what is the nature of any such arrangement?


Hon. Howard C. Green (Secretary of State for External Affairs):: As the hon. member is aware, negotiations between Canada and the United States on the co-operative development of the Columbia river system are now in progress. The second in a series of meetings between the two delegations was held in Washington on March 4 and 5 and a third meeting is scheduled for March 31 and April 1 in Ottawa. These negotiations have an important bearing on the question of costs and cost sharing raised in all three questions. Until the negotiations are completed it would not be helpful to attempt to answer these questions.



DEATH SENTENCES SINCE APRIL 30, 1959

Mr. McGee: 1.	Since April 30, 1959, how many, if any, persons have been sentenced to the death penalty?
2.	During that period how many such persons have (a) been executed; (b) had the sentence commuted; (c) been otherwise dealt with, and what are the details in each case?


Hon. E. D. Fulton (Minister of Justice):: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member who asked this question has agreed that I produce all the figures in this respect since 1930. This will complete the table which was printed in Hansard of May 27, 1959, at page 4100, in answer to a question by the hon. member for Skeena to the same effect.
Since this table provides a long list of figures I would ask the authorization of the house to have it printed in Hansard at this point, without taking the time of the house to read this lengthy list.


Mr. Speaker:: Has the minister leave to have the balance of his answer printed in Hansard without it being read?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
1Editor's Note: The list referred to, together with explanatory note, follows:]
1.	The number of persons sentenced to the death penalty is as follows;
1930, 23; 1931, 32; 1932, 23; 1933, 21; 1934, 26; 1935, 17; 1936, 22; 1937, 14; 1938, 19; 1939, 11; 1940, 21; 1941, 15; 1942, 13; 1943, 10; 1944, 18; 1945, 19; 1946, 29; 1947, 19; 1948, 26; 1949, 29; 1950, 21; 1951, 19; 1952, 26; 1953, 22; 1954, 25; 1955, 18; 1956, 19; 1957, 12; 1958, 21; 1959, 18; 1960, 3 (to March 4).
2.	(a) The number of persons executed is as follows:
1930, 13; 1931, 25; 1932, 13; 1933, 16; 1934, 12; 1935, 12; 1936, 14; 1937, 7; 1938, 9; 1939, 4; 1940, 9; 1941, 7; 1942, 6; 1943, 7; 1944, 9; 1945, 10; 1946, 13; 1947, 10; 1948, 13*; 1949,
* Includes one condemned person who committed suicide.
Starred Questions
11; 1950, 10; 1951, 11; 1952, 10; 1953, 8; 1954, 10; 1955, 6; 1956, 5; 1957, 3; 1958, 3; 1959, 2; 1960, 0 (to March 4).
2. (b) The number of death sentences commuted is as follows:
1930, 5; 1931, 3; 1932, 5; 1933, 3; 1934, 5; 1935, 3; 1936, 4; 1937, 2; 1938, 8; 1939, 4;
1940,	6; 1941, 7; 1942, 1; 1943, 1; 1944, 4; 1945, 5; 1946, 8; 1947, 3; 1948, 5; 1949, 6; 1950, 3; 1951, 3; 1952, 8; 1953, 6; 1954, 4; 1955, 9; 1956, 5; 1957, 5, 1958, 16; 1959, 11; 1960, 0 (to March 4).
2. (c) 1930, 5 new trials; 1931, 2 new trials, 1 conviction quashed, 1 died; 1932, 5 new trials; 1933, 2 new trials; 1934, 9 new trials;
1935,	1 new trial, 1 reduced to manslaughter;
1936,	3 new trials, 1 died; 1937, 2 new trials, 1 died, 2 convictions quashed; 1938, 1 new trial, 1 reduced to manslaughter; 1939, 3 new trials; 1940, 5 new trials, 1 conviction quashed;
1941,	1 new trial; 1942, 6 new trials; 1943, 1 new trial, 1 conviction quashed; 1944, 3 new trials, 1 reduced to manslaughter, 1 conviction quashed; 1945, 2 new trials, 2 reduced to manslaughter; 1946, 6 new trials, 1 conviction quashed, 1 reduced to manslaughter; 1947, 5 new trials, 1 reduced to manslaughter; 1948, 6 new trials, 1 died, 1 reduced to manslaughter; 1949, 8 new trials, 3 reduced to manslaughter, 1 conviction quashed; 1950, 8 new trials; 1951, 4 new trials, 1 reduced to manslaughter; 1952, 8 new trials; 1953, 3 new trials, 1 reduced to manslaughter, 2 convictions quashed, 2 suicides; 1954, 5 new trials, 4 reduced to manslaughter, 2 convictions quashed; 1955, 2 new trials, 1 reduced to manslaughter; 1956, 7 new trials, 2 reduced to manslaughter; 1957, 3 new trials, 1 reduced to manslaughter; 1958, 2 new trials; 1959, 3 new trials, 2 pending; 1960, 3 pending (to March 4).
Explanatory note: The figures for the years 1930 to 1954 are those which are set out in Appendix "B"-capital case statistics, of the report to the joint committee of the Senate and House of Commons on capital punishment. In preparing the statistics each case has been treated as having been dealt with, by execution or commutation or by the court of appeal, as the case may be, in the same year as that in which the sentence of death was imposed. That is to say, if a sentence of death was imposed, for instance, in November of a particular year and was commuted in February of the following year, the case is treated, for the purpose of these statistics, as having been one where the sentence was imposed and commuted in the same calendar year.
The figures contained in the answer to question 1 are the number of convictions in that year. In the answer to part 2 the ultimate disposition of each case has been related to the year of conviction.

Starred Questions



QUESTIONS ASKED PERSONS LEAVING CANADA

['Mr. Speaker, the answer to the first question is no, except in very general terms in the course of a statement made to the dominion-provincial conference on November 25, 1957. The answers to questions 2, 3 and 4 follow.']
Hon. Ellen L. Fairclough (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration):: Mr. Speaker, the answer to this question with regard to immigration officers is that no questions of any kind are asked of persons leaving Canada by immigration officers. In the unavoidable absence from the house of the Minister of National Revenue, I wonder if this could stand for his answer.
Question stands.



Mr. Argue: 1.	Is the Canadian government informed by any agency of the United States government of the number of persons emigrating to the United States from Canada?
2.	If so, on what date was this information first supplied, by whom, to whom, and where is the information deposited?
3.	What specific points regarding each emigrant are supplied in this information?


Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Speaker, the answers to the three parts of this question are as follows:
1.	Yes.
2.	Information was first supplied for the year ending June 30, 1942, by the United States department of justice, immigration and naturalization service, to the dominion bureau of statistics. It is deposited with the dominion bureau of statistics.
3.	No specific information is provided for each individual immigrant. The information is received in tabular form showing the distribution of immigrants admitted to the United States from Canada classified in groups by:
(a)	country of last permanent residence
(b)	country or region of birth
(c)	class of immigrant, under the United States immigration act
(d)	age, sex and marital status and
(e>
occupation.


HUNGARIAN REFUGEES
Mr. Pickersgill: 1.	How many Hungarian refugees have entered Canada since the movement began in 1956?
2.	Of this number, how many were admitted as non-immigrants because they could not satisfy the health requirements of the Immigration Act?
3.	Of those admitted as non-immigrants, how many received medical or other health care as immigrants?
4.	Of those admitted as non-immigrants (a) how many received medical or other health care at the expense of the federal government; (b) how many are still receiving such care?
5.	Are any Hungarian refugees still receiving assistance from the Department of Citizenship and Immigration and, if so, how many?
6.	What is the estimated number of Hungarian refugees who have left Canada, and how many of them have been assisted financially by the government to return to Europe?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Speaker, the answers to the several parts of this question are as follows:
1.	37,727.
2.	1,380 were allowed entry as non-immigrants or entered without status either because they could not comply with the medical requirements or because they were members of the families of those who could not meet medical standards.
3.	847.
4.	(a) Of the number shown in 2, we have no statistical breakdown of those refugees who required or were provided with medical or other health care.
(b) 17.
5.	Six Hungarian refugees are now receiving non-medical assistance from the department.
6.	The total number of Hungarian refugees who may have left Canada cannot be estimated because the department does not maintain emigration statistics. There were 483 Hungarian refugees who were assisted financially by the department to return to Europe.


MONETARY POLICY REPRESENTATIONS, ATLANTIC PROVINCES
Mr. Benidickson: 1.	Have the premiers of the Atlantic provinces acting together made representations to the federal government on the subject of a more flexible monetary policy for the Atlantic provinces?
2.	If so, when were such representations made, and of what nature?
3.	Did the federal government make a reply to any such representations?
4.	If so, on what date and what was the nature of the reply?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, the answer to the first question is no. Consequently the answers to the other questions would follow.


MONETARY POLICY REPRESENTATIONS, NEW BRUNSWICK
Mr. Benidickson: 1.	Has the premier of New Brunswick made representations to the federal government on the subject of a more flexible monetary policy for the Atlantic provinces?
2.	If so, when were such representations made, and of what nature?
3.	Did the federal government make a reply to any such representations?
4.	If so, on what date and what was the nature of the reply?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, the answer to the first question is no, except in very general terms in the course of a statement made to the dominion-provincial conference on November 25, 1957. The answers to questions 2, 3 and 4 follow.



CHANGE TO DEFICIENCY PAYMENTS


Mr. Martin (Essex East): 1.	Did the premier of Nova Scotia protest to the federal government the change-over from price supports to deficiency payments on certain agricultural products?
2.	If so, when was such a protest made, to whom, and what was the nature of the reply made, if any?


Hon. D. S. Harkness (Minister of Agriculture):: Mr. Speaker, parts 1 and 2 of this question can best be answered by one statement. The premier of Nova Scotia wrote me in May of 1959, as he stated in his letter, on the basis of rumours he had heard. The premier did not raise any question with respect to the change-over from the method of support by purchase to a deficiency payment method for agricultural products, but he did raise a question in connection with the operation of deficiency payments for eggs. I replied pointing out the overproduction situation for eggs and outlining the reasons why a change in the method' of support was necessary.



ELECTIONS ACT TAXATION WAIVERS


Mr. Howard: How many, If any, Indians have signed a taxation waiver form pursuant to paragraph E. of subsection 2 of section 14 of the Canada Elections Act?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Speaker, the answer is 122, according to the latest information.



REQUEST BY ATLANTIC PROVINCES FOR MONETARY POLICY INQUIRY

Mr. Batten: 1. Since June, 1957, have the premiers of the Atlantic provinces acting in concert requested the
Orders for Returns
federal government to conduct an inquiry Into monetary policy generally, and/or In relation to the effects of monetary policy on the Atlantic provinces?
2. If so, did the federal government reply to this request, on what date and to what effect?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, the answer to the first question is no, and the answer to the second question follows.



NEW BRUNSWICK REQUEST FOR MONETARY POLICY INQUIRY

Mr. Batten: 1.	Since June, 1957, has the premier of New Brunswick requested the federal government to conduct an inquiry into monetary policy generally, and/or In relation to the effects of monetary policy on the Atlantic provinces?
2.	If so, did the federal government reply to this request, on what date and to what effect?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, the answer to the first question is no, except in very general terms in the course of a statement made to the dominion-provincial conference on November 25, 1957. The answer to the second question follows.



NOVA SCOTIA REQUEST FOR MONETARY POLICY INQUIRY

Mr. Batten: 1.	Since June, 1957, has the premier of Nova Scotia requested the federal government to conduct an inquiry into monetary policy generally, and/or in relation to the effects of monetary policy on the Atlantic provinces?
2.	If so, did the federal government reply to this request, on what date and to what effect?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, the answer to the first question is no. The answer to the second question follows.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. Fisher: 1.	Has the government ordered and received aircraft designated as the CF-100?
2.	If so, when was the first delivery received, and what has been the delivery figures by month since then?
3.	Has any of these delivered aircraft entered squadron service since the first delivery?
4.	If so, what has been the figure put into such service month by month, since the first deliveries?
5.	What is the figure, month by month, of CF-lOO's taken permanently out of squadron service?
6.	How many CF-lOO's are now in storage and have not been in squadron service?


POST OFFICE TRANSFERS
Mr. Dupuis: 1. Have there been any transfers of post offices in Canada since the month of June, 1957?

Motions for Papers
2. If so, (a) what number in each province; (b) from and to what locations in the province of Quebec, and for what reason in each case?


RURAL MAIL DELIVERY ESTABLISHMENT
Mr. McWilliam: 1.	What regulations govern the establishment of rural mail delivery?
2.	What steps should be followed by a group of citizens who wish to have such a service?


TRANS-CANADA HIGHWAY AGREEMENTS   EXTENSIONS
Mr. McWilliam: 1.	Has the federal government received requests from the governments of the provinces of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick for an extension in the terms of the trans-Canada highway agreements?
2.	If so, what reply or replies were given to the requests?


FEDERAL PAYMENTS TO PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENTS
Mr. Pickersgill: 1.	Has there been an increase in federal payments to the provincial governments between the fiscal years 1956-57 and 1958-59 and, if so, how much?
2.	How much of such increase is attributable to (a) legislation enacted before June 21, 1957; (b) legislation enacted since June 21, 1957?
3.	Is any portion of this amount for the federal share of hospital insurance and, if so, how much?



NORTHERN AFFAIRS AND NATIONAL RESOURCES


Gordon Minto Churchill: May I have permission to revert to motions in order to refer some matters to a committee, Mr. Speaker?


Mr. Speaker:: Has the Minister of Trade and Commerce leave to revert to motions?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Gordon Minto Churchill: I move:
That items numbered 277 to 281 inclusive, and items 486 and 487, as listed in the main estimates of 1960-61, relating to the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources, be withdrawn from the committee of supply and referred to the standing committee on mines, forests and waters saving always the powers of the committee of supply in relation to the voting of the public moneys.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 64-Mr. Dupuis:
For a copy of agreement No. 58407 entered into on March 24, 1958, by the Department of Transport and the city of Campbellford, Ontario, with respect to a contribution of $1,000 for the development of (Mr. Dupuis.]
a park on the grounds of the canal leased to the city of Campbellford under agreement No. 58408; also for a copy of agreement No. 58408.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion. No. 65-Mr. Martin (Essex East):
For a copy of all correspondence, letters and telegrams exchanged since January 1, 1959, between the federal government and the government of Nova Scotia on the subject of payments under the Agricultural Prices Stabilization Act.
Douglas Scott Harkness: This is agreeable, subject to the usual limitations, of course.


Mr. Speaker:: Is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion, subject to the limitations expressed by the minister?


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. L. B. Pearson (Leader of the
Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I wonder whether the Minister of Trade and Commerce can report to the house on the question I asked him yesterday, about reports that Japan had placed a 10-year uranium contract with the British atomic energy authority?
Hon. Gordon Churchill (Minister of Trade
and Commerce): I have since read the report, Mr. Speaker. I have not full information on this subject because we would have to get that from the United Kingdom, if they are prepared to disclose it. It appears to me that this refers to the erection of a nuclear power station, made and designed by the British, and that they are supplying the uranium that will be used in that power station.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. G. J. Mcllraiih (Ottawa West):: I
should like to direct a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce, and ask whether he is now in a position to advise the house when he expects the completion of the trade agreement between Canada and the Soviet union.


Gordon Minto Churchill: I regret that I cannot give
the house a date for the completion of this agreement. We are still awaiting word from the Russian embassy.



TRANSPORT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. W. Herridge (Kootenay West):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Transport. This is an entirely new question for this session. It refers to the Kettle Valley railroad. My question is based on the righteous indignation of my constituents. In view of the fact that the attorney general of British Columbia has now withdrawn the reward offered with respect to sabotage on the Kettle Valley railway as he firmly believes, I am informed, that there is now no longer cause to worry that it will occur again; and in view of the urgent need for improvement in the passenger service on this railway, w<ould the minister again take up this question with the attorney general of British Columbia with a view to renewal of the daily passenger service between Nelson and Vancouver as soon as possible?


Hon. George H. Hees (Minister of Transport):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to thank the hon. member for giving me notice of his intention to ask this question. I have consulted with the board of transport commissioners about the matter and of necessity the answer is rather long and complicated. I wonder whether I could have the permission of the house to have it printed in Hansard at this point?


Mr. Speaker:: How many pages is the minister submitting?


George Harris Hees: It is one page. I will be very glad to read it.


Mr. Speaker:: Has the minister leave to have it printed in Hansard?


Mr. Pearson:: Mr. Speaker, the difficulty in this procedure is that it precludes the opposition from asking supplementary questions.


Mr. Speaker:: Perhaps the house would permit the minister to give the answer orally at this time notwithstanding that it may exceed the normal length. Is that agreed?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I am glad that the Leader of the Opposition recognizes the importance of the question.


George Harris Hees: I can assure you that the government appreciates the importance of the question also.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Why not read it, then?


George Harris Hees: In a judgment dated January 4, 1960, following a hearing by the board of
Inquiries of the Ministry transport commissioners relating to the train service being furnished by Canadian Pacific Railway Company on its line between Vancouver, British Columbia, and Medicine Hat, Alberta, via Nelson, B.C., and to inquire into the adequacy thereof and complaints respecting it, the board expressed the opinion that no order should be made at that time upon the railway in respect of its present service between Victoria and Medicine Hat. The judgment then proceeded to state as follows:
However, at such time as (a) a sufficient time has elapsed without depredations occurring in the area as to remove, beyond reasonable doubt, the threat to the travelling public and to the railway, or (b) such protective measures have been taken as are, in the opinion of the police forces administering such measures, sufficient to protect the travelling public and the railway, then, if the railway company has not, of its own accord, resumed a service which in the then existing circumstances meets the reasonable needs of the area, an application may be made to this board to require it to do so.
In view of the foregoing, and because neither the Minister of Transport nor the attorney general of British Columbia has any authority to require the Canadian Pacific Railway Company to resume the service in question, any application directed toward the resumption of the service should be made to the board of transport commissioners.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I wonder whether I could ask the minister a supplementary question. Did I understand him to refer to train service between Victoria and Medicine Hat?


George Harris Hees: No, I said service. To clear that up-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The Prime Minister. [Later:]


George Harris Hees: Mr. Speaker, if I did say Victoria I meant to say Vancouver in my answer; but I wish to advise the hon. member that it is possible to go from Victoria to the mainland by train if you cross over on the ferry from Nanaimo.


John Whitney Pickersgill: By passenger train?


George Harris Hees: I did not say passenger train.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I have a supplementary
question to ask the minister. Did I hear him correctly as saying that the proper procedure is for the attorney general of British Columbia to make application to the board of transport commissioners?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Or the Minister of Transport.


George Harris Hees: I said the application should be made to the board of transport commissioners.

Inquiries of the Ministry INDIAN AFFAIRS



STATEMENT ON PROTESTS RESPECTING EXTENSION OF FRANCHISE

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prime Minister):: The hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate asked me a question on March 2 relative to protests from Indian chiefs or councillors regarding the proposal to give the franchise to Indians, and wanted to know what reply had been made.
There were four protests received by me, and I find that in each case they were acknowledged by the staff. In one case a copy of Hansard of January 18 was sent. In another the remarks I made on that occasion were paraphrased in the reply. In a third the incoming letter was referred to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration who was asked to consider it and reply further, if necessary. In the other case it was suggested that the senders, who wished to meet with some ministers on the matter, might wish to see the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration and the Acting Secretary of State.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I wonder whether the Prime Minister can recall if one of these letters was from the band in New Brunswick, near Fredericton?


John George Diefenbaker: What is the name of that band?


John Whitney Pickersgill: The letter would be from the chief of the Oromocto band.


John George Diefenbaker: Yes, Mr. Speaker.



POST OFFICE DEPARTMENT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Hubert Badanai (Fort William):: I wish to direct a question to the Prime Minister. Has the Prime Minister received a resolution from the Fort William-Port Arthur and district labour council urging the government to give consideration to an adjustment of salaries and bargaining rights for postal employees? If so, has the Prime Minister any statement to make to the house on this matter?


John George Diefenbaker: Naturally, Mr. Speaker, having had no notice of this question, I shall have to check on the matter.



INQUIRY AS TO INCREASED RATES FOR ADVERTISING MATTER

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Erhart Regier (Burnaby-Coquitlam):: should like to direct a question to the Postmaster General. Is the government giving any consideration to increasing both the efficiency and the revenue of the post office by raising the rates charged for the distribution of advertising material through the mail?


Hon. W. M. Hamilton (Postmaster General):: With the exception of a slight change in the rates for householder mail, most of which is used for advertising, which were increased recently, there are no other such rate changes under consideration at the moment.


Erhart Regier: Might I ask a supplementary question of the Minister of Finance. In view of the heavy burden on the backs of the mail carriers of Canada, is the government giving any consideration to amending the Income Tax Act so as to remove advertising as one of the allowable deductible expenses?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I think the hon. member is now anticipating the budget debate, when he begins to ask questions on the details of income tax decisions.



ATOMIC ENERGY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. G. H. Aiken (Parry Sound-Muskoka):: have a question for the Minister of Trade and Commerce, arising out of a press dispatch in this morning's Globe and Mail. Has the Canadian government entered into an agreement with the United States government concerning research and development in Canada respecting natural uranium heavy water reactors?


Gordon Minto Churchill: The answer to that question is yes. This question in somewhat similar form arose on February 18 as reported at page 1186 of Hansard but there is a new article emanating from Washington which has occasioned the interest today. The article is not accurate throughout, because it seems to imply that in the one instance the United States is shouldering some of the research burden that is being borne by Canada, and also that it is getting a big bargain at our expense.
That implication is not accurate. What is taking place is this. The United States has been so greatly impressed by the research that has been carried on in Canada in the use of

natural uranium and heavy water that they want to enter the field themselves, and they are attempting to get an appropriation passed for that purpose. The money is to be spent in the United States, but they will follow the research that has been done in Canada and will carry on their own research on the use of natural uranium and heavy water.
It is a great compliment to the work that has been done by Canadian scientists that the United States, which is spending so heavily in this field, is now looking closely at and spending money on the method which has been in use in Canada.


Lester Bowles Pearson: I have a supplementary question. Does the minister then take issue with the statement made by Representative Holifield of the United States congress that the United States is shouldering part of the research cost of Canada's new atomic reactor?


Gordon Minto Churchill: Yes, I certainly do. This is, of course, a Washington dispatch. Our friends down there sometimes like to think they are carrying a heavy burden for other people; but we have been running our own show in Canada in that field, and that is an inaccuracy.


Mr. Chevrier:: Page the Minister of National Defence.


George Randolph Pearkes: Yes. We carry our own share there too.


Lionel Chevrier: Is that what you said
yesterday?


Gordon Minto Churchill: It is obvious that everybody understands that Canada is quite able to do this on her own.



INQUIRY AS TO CONTRIBUTIONS TO RESEARCH BY INDUSTRY

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Joseph Slogan (Springfield):: I have a supplementary question for the Minister of Trade and Commerce. Can the Minister of Trade and Commerce inform the house whether the uranium industry have contributed any money toward research and toward the expanded use of uranium in Canada, or whether they have any research program of their own?


Gordon Minto Churchill: 

COMMUNICATIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Azellus Denis (St. Denis):: I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Transport. Will the minister tell the house whether the act to amend the Telegraphs Act passed by parliament in 1956 has been proclaimed?


An hon. Member:: You had better let the Liberals answer that question.


George James McIlraith: The answer is yes.


George Harris Hees: I should like to take that question as notice.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Perhaps the parliamentary secretary should answer it.


George Harris Hees: Don't tease.



NATIONAL DEFENCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Paul Hellyer (Trinity):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Defence. Can the minister elaborate on his statement of Monday last to the effect that there had been a change in financial arrangements with the United States respecting cost sharing with regard to the Bomarc installations?


George Randolph Pearkes: The minister never said there had been any change in the cost sharing arrangements with the United States in so far as these projects are concerned. The cost sharing arrangements were stated clearly in the white paper which was issued last year. As a result of certain modifications to equipment, some of the costs have been reduced and, in so far as the Bomarc is concerned, very much in favour of Canada.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: I have a supplementary question. The minister is then saying that the arrangements which were worked out at the outset, and which were stated in the white paper, still stand as far as the division of costs is concerned?

Inquiries of the Ministry


George Randolph Pearkes: They still stand as far as the general division of costs is concerned.


George James McIlraith: I wish to ask a supplementary question. May I ask the Minister of National Defence whether his attention has been drawn to the statement made by the Associate Minister of National Defence (Mr. Sevigny) at Calgary on March 1, in which he is quoted in the newspaper as saying that there is no doubt that before too long the Bomarc B will be as good as the Bomarc A missile?


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.
(Translation):



SUGGESTED MILITARY SERVICE BY STUDENTS DURING SUMMER

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Marcel Boivin (Shefford):: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Associate Minister of National Defence? Could the minister indicate whether he has received any communication from the minister of finance of the province of Quebec, Hon. Johnny Bourque, with regard to his summer military training plan for students?
If so, could he tell us his reaction and table a copy of the correspondence?


Joseph Pierre Albert Sévigny: Mr. Speaker, I have received no such communication from the minister of finance of the province of Quebec. However, I shall inquire from the officials of the division, and will let the hon. member for Shefford know the result of my inquiries.


Mr. Yvon Dupuis (St. Jean-Iberville-Napier-ville):: I would like to ask the Associate Minister of National Defence if he intends to bring this matter to the attention of NATO?



AIRPORTS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Emilien Morissette (Rimouski):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to put a question to the Minister of Transport. Following the statement made in this house yesterday by the hon. member for Lapointe (Mr. Brassard) to the effect that the Mont Joli airport is to be shut down and in view of contradictory information obtained from Department of Transport officials, would the minister tell us exactly what are the facts in this respect?


George Harris Hees: I am pleased to inform the hon. member that at no time have we considered the possibility of shutting down the Mont Joli airport, nor even of curtailing its present use.

(Text):


Mr. Augustin Brassard (Lapointe):: I have a supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. (Translation):
Could the Minister of Transport tell us if his department is not in fact expecting to close down the airport weather station on March 31 next, date of a famous anniversary? (Text):


George Harris Hees: That is merely an administrative shift. We are not in any way diminishing the usefulness of this airport for the air industry.



HARBOURS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Lucien Cardin (Richelieu-Vercheres):: would like to direct a question to the Minister of Public Works. Can the minister inform the house whether it is the intention of his department to proceed this year with the plans for the construction of dock No. 3 in the port of Sorel and, if so, when it is expected that tenders will be called?


Hon. D. J. Walker (Minister of Public Works):: The answer, Mr. Speaker, is no.



REPORTED REMARKS BY MINISTER OF JUSTICE ON NARCOTIC CONTROL

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Paul Marlin (Essex East):: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Minister of Justice whether his attention has been directed to a question put by me and replied to by the Minister of National Health and Welfare the other day, as to his intentions regarding legislation this session in respect of improving Canada's administration of narcotic control. If so, will the minister explain what he meant when he said the other day, as reported in the press, that he proposed to recommend certain steps to the provinces to deal with the question of drug addiction? Does he not think that in any event the house ought to be informed before this is done?


Edmund Davie Fulton: Mr. Speaker, that is a pretty complicated question. I do not think there is really very much I should add either to what the Minister of National Health and Welfare said in answer to the hon. gentleman's question the other day or to what I said as reported in the press, which was quite clearly reported and does not raise, as I understand it, any difficulties.


Paul Joseph James Martin: May I ask a
supplementary question. Does the minister

propose to bring forward certain recommendations to the provinces on behalf of the federal government in the matter of drug addiction, a responsibility which primarily belongs to the Minister of National Health and Welfare?


Edmund Davie Fulton: Mr. Speaker, I have heard the hon. gentleman assert that opinion before. In this government we believe in co-operating in these matters, not in competing, as was the case with the previous administration.


Paul Joseph James Martin: May I ask another supplementary question. In view of the cooperative attitude of the minister, would he co-operate with the member for Essex East and reply to his question?


Edmund Davie Fulton: Yes, Mr. Speaker, whenever I receive an intelligible question.
(Translation):



BEAUCEVILLE, QUE.    REQUEST FOR DYNAMITING OF ICE IN RIVER

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Jean-Paul Racine (Beauce):: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Associate Minister of National Defence?
Following the blasting of ice jams at Beauceville, on the Chaudiere river, by the Canadian army in 1959, was an army report prepared on that operation?
If so, does the report include findings and recommendations in regard to ice break-ups on that river?


Joseph Pierre Albert Sévigny: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for Beauce for giving me notice of his question.
The answer to the first part of his question is yes.
As for the second part of the question, the report recommended that, if it appeared necessary in future to use explosives for clearing the ice from the Chaudiere river, preparations for that operation should be made two or three weeks before the expected date of the ice run after the spring thaw. Explosives are more efficient if used when the ice is still solid which also implies less hazard for the men who have to place the charges at the proper place.


Jean-Paul Racine: Could the representatives of the army consider the possibility of blasting the ice at other sites along the river than St. Joseph and St. Mary for instance, where damage is being suffered as a result of blasting carried on by the army in the spring.
Inquiries of the Ministry


Joseph Pierre Albert Sévigny: I think that if such requests are submitted to us by the provincial authorities, we shall very gladly give the matter careful consideration.
(Text):



UNITED NATIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Hazen Argue (Assiniboia):: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs. I am sorry I did not have a chance to send him notice, but I do not think he really needs it. In view of the great interest in the emerging independent nations of Africa and the reported endeavour by the secretary general of the United Nations to create a much needed fund for African development, can the minister say whether Canada has given consideration to the promotion of either a United Nations fund or a commonwealth fund for African development?


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, consideration has been given and is still being given to ways in which we can help these emerging nations of Africa and, as the hon. member knows, we are already helping members of the commonwealth.


Hazen Robert Argue: Can the minister say whether there has been consultation or discussion with the secretary general of the United Nations toward the setting up of such a fund?


Howard Charles Green: I think this is the first indication which has come from the secretary general that he has in mind the establishment of such a fund. There has been no opportunity to discuss it with him.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Minister of Finance a question arising out of the question just replied to by the Secretary of State for External Affairs. Is the minister yet in a position to report about the conference which has been taking place in Washington with regard to the coordination of funds as between western powers and certain undeveloped countries; and would that fund also deal with the matter raised by the hon. member for Assiniboia?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, that conference is in progress at the present time; consequently the question, I think, is premature. However, so far as the second part of the question is concerned, that conference was called principally to discuss questions pertaining to coordination of aid among the countries which are members of the committee concerned,

Inquiries of the Ministry eight in all, which were among the countries, as the hon. member will recall, which were represented at the conference in Paris in January.
(Translation):



FOREIGN AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. P. Deschalelels (Maisonneuve-Rosemont):: Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the Solicitor General a question. Can the minister tell us whether, in the lecture he gave in Montreal on the benefits of the Colombo plan, he was expressing the opinion of Conservative members from the province of Quebec?


Léon Balcer: I do
not see why not.
(Text):


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I think the hon. member who asked the question recognizes that it is not the responsibility of the minister to do what he suggests.


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: If you will allow me to reply to the point of order you have raised, Mr. Speaker, the Solicitor General attended a conference on Tuesday night in Montreal at which he was advocating that the benefits which this country would have received from the Colombo plan over the past years, especially before the last election-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member had better reserve comment of that kind for debate. If he disagrees with my view of his question and wishes to speak to the point of order, I will hear him; but if he wishes to ask about matters before the last election, I cannot entertain his question.


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Mr. Speaker, I am afraid I was insisting because the minister has no estimates to enable me to ask this question.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. D. M. Fisher (Pori Arthur):: I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Public Works. Has any official of the minister's department or the labour department intervened in an attempt to settle the reported strike at the lakehead terminal and, if so, to what effect?


David James Walker: Our district engineer is intervening at the moment.



LIVESTOCK


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John Whitney Pickersgill: I wonder if I could ask the Minister of Finance how soon he expects to be able to resume payments to the government of Manitoba in connection with the brucellosis eradication program? I think the minister is aware that the province has run out of money.


Douglas Scott Harkness: I can say something in reply to that question. The reason we have not been able to make these payments is that the members of the opposition held up the supplementary estimates. The payments are not made by the provinces at all. They are made by the dominion government, and we have been unable to pay them because of the speed with which the program went ahead and the failure of the opposition to realize the gravity of the situation, as a result of which a large number of farmers have been denied these payments for the last several weeks.


Some hon. Members:: Shame.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Perhaps I may ask the
Minister of Finance why is it, in view of the special accommodation given to him by the opposition on Monday, that these payments are still being held up?


Donald Methuen Fleming: The hon. member is drawing on his imagination, or his powers of creating fiction, in talking about any accommodation extended by the opposition on Monday. What the opposition extended, if one may judge by the hon. member's behaviour, was a good deal of obstruction.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. It seems to me thal both the question and the answer are not in order at this point.



POSTAL SERVICE

[Stage Direction]
INQUIRY AS TO RESTORATION OF TWICE DAIL?

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Azellus Denis: Could I ask a question of the Postmaster General? Could the Postmaster General tell the house when he expects to put into effect his policy of twice a day delivery of mail?


William McLean Hamilton: There is no further news of that at the moment.



INDIAN ACT


Ellen Louks Fairclough: That a joint committee of the Senate and House of Commons be appointed to continue the examination and consideration, begun by a joint committee of the Senate and House of Commons, pursuant to a resolution of the house on April 29, 1959, of the Indian Act, chapter 149, R.S.C. 1952, and amendments thereto, and to suggest such amendments as they may deem advisable, with authority to investigate and report upon Indian administration in general and, in particular, on the social and economic status of the Indians;
That 24 members of the House of Commons, to be designated at a later date, act on behalf of the house as members of the said committee, and that standing order 67 (1) of the House of Commons be suspended in relation thereto;
That the records, exhibits and evidence received and taken by the joint committee during the last session of parliament aforesaid be made available to the said joint committee and made part of the records thereof;
That the said committee have power to call for persons, papers and records and examine witnesses under oath; to sit while the house is sitting, and to report from time to time; and to print such papers and evidence from day to day as may be ordered by the committee and that standing order 66 be suspended in relation thereto;
, And that a message be sent to the Senate requesting that house to unite with this house for the above purpose, and to select, if the Senate deems advisable, some of its members to act on the proposed joint committee.
She said: In introducing this motion I do not intend to make any lengthy comment.
It will be recalled that last year a joint committee of both houses was appointed to examine Indian affairs. That committee held 12 meetings and called and heard evidence from a few Indian groups and organizations. However, in the time available it was not possible for the committee to hear all those who wished to present their views, nor to make a detailed study of many aspects of Indian affairs. Accordingly the committee unanimously recommended that a similar committee be appointed early this session to carry on its investigations and studies. That is the purpose of this motion.
I understand that there are many groups, both Indian and non-Indian, which have expressed the desire to present evidence before the committee, and I am sure most members will agree that the committee should be reestablished as soon as possible so it can get on with its work.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I am very pleased that the minister has been able to bring this motion forward this early in the session, and I quite agree-as I did last year-with the desirability of having the committee set up.
Joint Committee to Study Indian Act
However, I have a few suggestions to make with regard to the proceedings of the committee this year which I intend to try to make in a wholly non-controversial way. I recognize that last year most of the members of the committee had had very little experience in this kind of inquiry; that it was exploratory, and that, apart from the hon. gentleman from this house who was the joint chairman, very few of the members of the committee had had any experience of participating in this form of inquiry before.
I do feel that if we are to obtain the maximum advantage from the work of this committee-and I hope we will-a certain amount of assistance will be necessary, and not merely from the Chair. I say this because it does seem to me that this is one of the fields where there is a great need for assistance, a need for direction by the minister and her parliamentary secretary, both of whom will, I hope, be members of the committee. I do not feel that the committee can function effectively unless the minister herself is there as much as possible to give an authoritative opinion on certain points which may arise. It does seem to me that when we are considering a statute as long and as complicated as the Indian Act, unless some lead is given by the superintendent general, some indication as to what sections of the act the government considers may reasonably be regarded as amendable and what sections the government feels need not be amended, in the light of the experience of the administration, the discussion will simply wander all over the lot without any sense of direction, with the result that in the end a lot of meetings will have been held but nothing will have been brought into any kind of focus.
I am sure the minister, after very nearly two years of experience as superintendent general, will agree with the conclusion which I myself reached at the end of three year's of similar work; namely, that it is very hard indeed to make any general rules for application to Indians in all parts of Canada. The law as it applies in some parts of Canada is often unsuitable for application to Indians in other parts of the country-sometimes, indeed, in the same province-having regard to the varying states of economic and social development and also to the differing, and apparently inherent, attitudes of the various bands of Indians.
While we obviously do have today-I regret it, but it is true-a special statute with respect to our Indian population, and I am sure we are going to have one for a long time to come, it is my hope, and I think I am not doing the minister an injustice when I say I believe she expressed it as her hope,

Joint Committee to Study Indian Act that the day will come when there will no longer be any need for an Indian Act or an Indian affairs branch. This is the goal toward which all good administration should work. I do know that there is among the Indians a relatively small but very potent minority that does not take this view at all. The Indians in that minority take the view that they are not Canadian citizens, that they do not want to be Canadian citizens and that they do not want to be treated as Canadian citizens. They take the position that they are a separate nation in alliance with Canada and that they should be treated as such.
That constitutes a serious and special problem particularly in a number of reserves where that view is opposed by another group of Indians who take the view that they are citizens, who want to be considered as citizens and want as rapidly as possible to have all the attributes of citizenship. The minister had to meet that problem in rather regrettable circumstances on one occasion a few months ago, circumstances which I regretted as much, I am sure, as the minister did.
I have no intention at this time of entering into a discussion of that problem. I merely mention it because it is perhaps the most dramatic illustration available of the extreme complexity of the problem and the difficulty of any attempt to provide legislation for people who are largely although not wholly unrepresented in this parliament.
Here again we have the most extraordinary anomalies. Many of the Indians help to elect members to this house because all those who do not live on reserves-whether they do not live on reserves through their own choice or because they have no reserve to live on-have the right to vote for members to this house, as do certain other Indians, including veterans and their wives and those who have signed the waivers, of whom the minister told us today there were only 122; and then there are many Indians, among them the most advanced in the country, who because they choose to go on living on the reserves and do not choose to sign the waiver, do not have any voice in choosing the people who in this house help to make the laws with respect to them.
It is true that there is representation in the other place, if I may make this observation in a completely non-controversial way. There is one honourable gentleman who was appointed, of course on account of his individual merit as was the case with every appointee in that other place, who does happen to be himself an Indian and therefore in a sense, although not in a truly representative sense, the Indians have some representation there.
[Mr. Pickersglll.l
It is therefore, I think, a trust in more senses than perhaps any other piece of legislation we ever have to deal with that we are considering when we consider the Indian Act, first because it deals with the original inhabitants of this country, and because of the relationship which our predecessors had with them of which we cannot always be too proud, and, second, because of the fact that they do not really yet-although I hope that condition is not going to continue for very long-have an adequate voice in determining the laws which apply to them generally or apply to them particularly.
Before any substantial amendments are made to the act, I feel that, in addition to anything that may be done by a parliamentary committee another step should be taken, as was taken by Mr. Harris when he was minister and as I took when I was minister; there should be another meeting arranged with the Indians themselves, and that notwithstanding the fact that it may be, by that time, they will theoretically have the franchise.
A meeting should be arranged with Indians, or representative Indians chosen by the bands themselves, in order to consider the proposals that the government intends to place before parliament for such amendments. I do not say and I am not suggesting that that general proposition should exclude the possibility of certain amendments being made to the Indian Act in the meantime and in particular-if I may just allude to it without attempting to debate it-the measure we are about to consider, when the consideration of the appointment of this committee is concluded.
I know there are many groups in this country, some of them actually the selfchosen representatives of Indian bands and some of them people who have shown a great and devoted interest to the Indians for many years, who wish to make representations to a parliamentary committee and, of course, to that I take no exception whatsoever. However, it is nearly always the case that such representations do not reflect in fact a carefully considered criticism of the whole act. They nearly always deal with some particular grievance of some particular group of Indians or some particular interest of some particular group of Indians and it is not reasonable to expect that by desultory-if I may use that term without	disrespect-representations
made by those who may have come forward to make them, we will get anything like a representative view of what the Indians themselves may want to have done about the legislation.
I assume that, within the limits of what is reasonable and practical, everyone in this

house without distinction of party really wants to do not only what he thinks is good for the Indians but what the Indians themselves want to have done.
It seems to me it is therefore essential that in addition to any representations that may be made by outsiders the committee should have put before it by the minister and her officials with her express approval the suggestions as to those sections of the act which ought to be amended. I do not say categorical views as to how the legislation should be amended because I am sure the minister would not have asked us who are going to be on the committee to give up our time to the work of the committee if she had hard, fast and categorical views that could not be changed by the committee. From such experience as I think most of us have had with matters of this kind I am sure we would all really agree that unless we have put before us a scheme, a set of proposals or an indication of what parts of the act really ought to be taken into account and what parts really need amendment or some guidance of that kind, it is going to be very difficult when the committee's work is completed to have anything to report that will be at once constructive and comprehensive.
It is nearly three years since I had responsibility for the administration of the Indian affairs branch and a great many changes have taken place since that time in the economy and in other respects. I would not presume to say, at this stage, what changes I think ought to be made in the act or in the administration. I do want to say, however, that after three years' experience my own view is that the most important parts of the administration are those which have to do with the education of Indians to which I attach more importance than to anything else, because I am quite convinced that until the aducation of the Indians and the opportunities tor their education are in every way comparable to what is available to other Canadians, no adequate progress will be made. Regrettably this equality does not yet exist although there has been an immense improvement, particularly since Mr. Harris took the administration in hand and the amendments were made in 1952. But, notwithstanding the improvements that have been made, it is certainly not true to say that today on the average the Indians have equal opportunities with other Canadians for education. That, I think, is the most important thing of all if we are to expect Indians ever to become really equal citizens with other Canadians, which I believe every Canadian who is worthy of the name, in his heart, wants to see.
Joint Committee to Study Indian Act
The second thing is that I believe that much more attention needs to be given, much more effort needs to be put into, and much more money needs to be spent upon economic development. This, to my way of thinking, is of the utmost importance. I have never quite recovered from the impression which was made upon my mind by visiting one of the residential schools in Ontario where in fact today-because the educational opportunities are better in Ontario on the average than in most of the provinces, especially in the older parts of Ontario- we find very few children except children of broken homes or orphans and children who, therefore, really, when the school is over have no place to go. I was shocked to realize something that I ought to have known but had never known, I suppose because of lack of imagination. It never occurred to me before that when these children reached the school-leaving age they just went back to the reserve to which they belonged at the school-leaving age of 16. There was no systematic attempt to follow them up to see that they got into constructive lines of employment. I know a good deal has been done since, in the last few years, and I know a great deal of progress has been made in this field; but it is a very important thing to see that after spending all the money that is spent-and it is very expensive to have these Indians go to these residential schools-we should not just abandon them, especially those who have no families, to go back to what all too often turns out to be a road to something rather close to delinquency. It was a gap that certainly existed and that certainly needed to be filled, but I think the most serious of all problems is the problem for which the minister has no responsibility, for which I was not responsible, and unhappily-


Mr. Speaker:: Before the hon. member proceeds to discuss in detail another problem of Indians I want to remind him, as I think he appreciates, that this is a motion to set up a committee and that Indian problems should only be referred to incidentally to show the desirability of establishing the committee. I hope hon. members will not make this an opportunity or an attempt to substitute this debate for what will properly come before the committee. I am not complaining particularly about the line the hon. member is taking, but ask him to keep in mind what I have said.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I quite agree with you, sir; I am afraid I have tended to abuse the rules of the house a little bit because perhaps of the natural interest I have in the subject.
1898	HOUSE OF
Joint Committee to Study Indian Act Therefore, my remarks may have been irrelevant and perhaps Your Honour is right in jacking me up. I think I can make them quite relevant to the motion by saying I would hope that the committee would concentrate its review, both of the administration and of the legislation, on these particular fields rather than to spread itself over every aspect of the question; first the education field, and second economic development.
The third field I was entering on which, perhaps, raised the point in Your Honour's mind, is the field that I want to say something about and which is directly relating to the motion.
I do hope that the most serious consideration will be given to this most serious problem-I do not say it is the most important problem, but the most difficult problem-of all, and that is the problem of those Indians who leave reserves, who have gone to places that are not really organized into proper municipalities, who live on the periphery of mining camps and other northern settlements and who, because they do not live on reserves, have ceased to be in many respects under the responsibility of the Indian affairs branch. They are really orphans in an administrative and juridical sense. The question of who is responsible for their education and who is responsible for their welfare is one that is very difficult to solve, having regard to the fact that the ministers in the provincial governments are always checked up by their provincial treasurers and the hon. lady, the minister, is no doubt always being warned by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Fleming), and quite properly so, as I was warned before, that we should not undertake responsibilities which are not the constitutional responsibilities of the federal government or of the parliament of Canada.
But this is a problem. The minister no doubt saw the articles that were published recently about Schefferville. The minister is well aware, I know, of the situation at Red Lake. One could go on and give many other similar instances, but this problem is one that-I am not being critical-it is not easy to solve; it is extremely difficult to solve. As a matter of fact, one of the difficulties about solving this is that it is so little understood, and it does seem to me that the committee should concentrate, at any rate for a part of its time, upon methods of solving this particular problem, of really seeking to get in all of those provinces where there are


Indians, or any considerable number of Indians, a clear understanding with the provincial governments of where the federal responsibility ends and where the provincial responsibility begins.
Part of the difficulty-and this is where I think the committee could do a great deal of good-is to eradicate this wholly erroneous opinion that the Indians are the wards of the federal government. They are not, and never were wards of the federal government. The Indians are Canadian citizens, like any other Canadian citizens, and the provincial governments have exactly the same responsibility toward them, when they are off a reserve, as they have toward any other citizen of the provinces; but a great many well-meaning, honest and honourable people are betrayed into taking an entirely wrong position with respect to the Indians because of this entirely erroneous opinion that Indians are wards of the federal government, or wards of the crown, which they are not and never were, in their legal status. It is true they are citizens who suffer under a certain disability, and also who enjoy certain advantages that are not enjoyed by other citizens, but that does not make them any less citizens of Canada.
It does not seem to me that I should go beyond these three broad fields which I feel we and the committee should give priority to; but I do appeal to the minister again to try, within the limits of the freedom that we will all want to have in the committee, to give the kind of focus and direction to its activities, to indicate the direction in which the department feels the time has now come to move and that the government would be prepared, given the right objectives, to move, so that what we do in the committee will bear fruit.


Mr. Frank Howard (Skeena):: Mr. Speaker, naturally, we in the C.C.F. support wholeheartedly the resolution and any activities which may be entered into by the committee or by the department in so far as those activities are helpful not only for our Indian people but for those of us who are not Indians but appreciate and understand the difficulties of the Indian people proper. I was most interested in listening to the comments of the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate (Mr. Pickersgill) with respect to an indication from the minister and the government of the things which the government and the minister may have in mind so far as correction is concerned or the hopes they may have with respect to alterations to the act or to the administration. I am sure that if this is done in the manner suggested it will be of some help to the committee in

staying on a fairly straight track. Otherwise the committee will have a tendency to wander all over the field which it should do so far as consideration is concerned and listening to the representations of interested parties, but when it comes to consolidating those representations and developing them into some form that will permit of a plan or program to be followed in the next few years then we might be well advised to consider the ideas of the minister and the department.
In addition, I think there is one thing which the committee should have provided for it-incidentally, this applies to other committees as well. Because of the complexity of the subject, because of the different developments and attitudes among Indians in different parts of the country this committee might well have provided for it fairly extensive research facilities. If this were done then people in the anthropological field, the economic field or the legal field, so far as the effect of treaties not only with the Indians but with others is concerned, could provide the committee with detailed and exhaustive research material which would assist the committee to evaluate properly the various representations made to it.
Since last session, as the minister indicated, a number of people have been anxiously awaiting the establishment of a similar committee this session as was unanimously recommended and as was indicated by the minister. This extreme interest has not been confined to Indian bands or Indian organizations only but other people have also expressed an interest. With respect to the question of representation of Indians in this house directly or through the exercise of the franchise, following the remarks of the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate may I say that the two measures which I understand will be dealt with subsequent to this motion will in my opinion be the most beneficial steps that can be taken in that direction.
With respect to Bill No. C-2 and Bill No. C-3 which are slated to be discussed shortly, if I may refer to them briefly I would hope that after they have been given second reading by the house they might be referred to the committee. From reading the terms of the resolution I understand that the committee will be discussing this field and I think that these bills might properly be referred to the committee.
There is one other matter in this regard which I think should be given consideration by the committee and it undoubtedly has been given some thought by the minister with respect to the presentation of the two bills to which I have referred. Following the passage of these bills, and I am quite
Joint Committee to Study Indian Act sure they will be passed, what is to be the relationship between the 122 Indians-I believe that was the figure-who up to now have signed taxation waiver forms pursuant to the Canada Elections Act and the Indian Act and all the other Indians in Canada who will be granted' the franchise without having had to sign such a waiver? I hope that we will not establish two classes of Indians so far as voting is concerned, one class being the 122 who up to this time have taken advantage of the waiver section and consequently have received the right to vote, and the second class being all other Indians on the reserves who have not taken advantage of it.
As an indication of the interest which has been developing since last session with respect to the establishment of this committee, I understand that some 65 to 70 Indian bands have expressed a desire to appear before the committee and' present material to it as well as some 30 organizations, including Indian organizations such as native brotherhoods, and some five provincial governments. I think that is a good thing because in some of these fields there is a conflict between provincial and federal jurisdiction or a lack of a strict line of demarcation. One interesting thing with respect to the provincial governments and which makes me wonder why all the provinces have not expressed interest in appearing before the committee to present their ideas is that one province, which to my knowledge has absolutely no Indians on reserves but which receives a contribution of $70,000 toward Indian day schools, has expressed a desire to appear. I refer to the province of Newfoundland. This makes me wonder why other provinces which have heavy complements of Indians have not yet taken the opportunity to express a desire to appear before the committee to present their ideas. I hope that such provinces as Quebec, which has a large Indian population, Alberta and the other three Atlantic provinces, all of which have not yet expressed a desire to appear before the committee, will undertake to communicate with the committee and appear before it to give it the benefit of their opinions on this all-important question.
Some people may disagree with me but this committee will be dealing with what I consider to be the most important minority group in Canada. Certainly we cannot be too proud of our treatment of the Indians in the past. I hope that the operations of the committee will afford an opportunity to right some of the wrongdoings and broken promises with respect to our native Indian people and
1900	HOUSE OF
Joint Committee to Study Indian Act will be a reflection, I am sure, of the conscious desire of every member of the house to extend to our Indian people a much fairer deal than they have had in the past. I think the work of the committee will certainly have an effect extending beyond Canada. We can be judged to a degree by other nations on the basis of our attitude toward our own people and I hope that the resulting conclusions, recommendations and action will bring about for Canada a position of more respect internationally than we have had in the past with respect to the treatment of our minority groups.
The variety and complexity of the problems confronting our Canadian Indians are much greater than confront other groups of people in Canada. Certainly the Indians in some fields have the same problems and difficulties as many other people but in addition they have special and peculiar problems. I was very pleased that the hon. member for Bona-vista-Twillingate, and I am sure he had no difficulty in doing so, selected as the most important question that of education. The work of the committee should not be confined to the question of providing the formal type of educational opportunities for Indian children but should be expanded to cover education in the relationships between the Indians and other groups in our society.
Also-and this is probably a question of the public relations feeling of the Indian affairs branch itself-in this question of education there should be some education directed to those of us who are not Indians so that we shall have a better understanding of the Indian himself, his background and history, his problems and his hopes. The committee should not think of this thing in terms of a one-way street only, of imparting to the Indian children and the Indian population those things which we as non-Indians think they should learn. It should be a twoway street. There should be a desire to have a mutual understanding and appreciation of each other's backgrounds, cultures, and aptitudes.
These backgrounds, degrees of education and understanding and economies of the Indians vary from one part of the nation to the other. For instance, there are the Indians comprising the Six Nations group. Their close proximity to the United States and their easy access to the country across the border-the fact that they were resident there long before the border was established in the first place-has allowed the Six Nations people to develop a slightly different attitude and a slightly different understanding of things, of our economy and of the way in


which they should be related to our economy than those of the Indians along the coastal part of British Columbia whose primary way of providing for themselves in years past has been through fishing and through trapping. They developed a different culture and a different understanding and they now have a different attitude. The Indians on the plains or in the prairie provinces accordingly developed in a different way, with different backgrounds, and have reached different stages of education as compared with Indians in other parts of the nation.
Taking into account all of this variety of rates of growth, differences in cultural background, differences in education, the committee will have them reflected in the various briefs or presentations and oral arguments presented before it and that will be good. I think the committee needs to have an understanding of the variety of problems of the different groups and different backgrounds the various Indian peoples have. However, there is an ancient Chinese saying to the effect that one look is worth a thousand reports. I think the committee, in addition to sitting, receiving briefs, asking questions and attempting to understand the presentations and the problems that are dealt with, might profitably undertake-and whether it has this authority, I do not know; if it has not, it should seek it-to arrange for visits by the committee to selected and various sections of the nation in order to see at firsthand particularly the social conditions on the reserves, the housing problem and the economic conditions of the Indians.
These matters can never be appreciated by listening to a brief presented by anybody but they certainly can be practically brought home by visiting some of the reserves and some of the areas, especially those fringe areas to which the hon. member for Bona-vista-Twillingate referred; that is to say areas on the fringe of an industrially developed area. They are not Indians now. They are not on the reserves. They are in some limbo period in between.
If the committee could undertake to select a few areas-for instance in the Northwest Territories-where it will see and be able to appreciate some of the conditions that exist there-it would be helpful. I think probably the coastal part of British Columbia or the interior part of British Columbia reflects a different group, a different attitude, different conditions than do Alberta and the prairie provinces. The committee might visit some selected areas there. I am sure it will have dramatically and graphically drawn to its attention some of the conditions there. I would also mention the Six Nations, the



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people in the maritimes and so on. All this would be a tremendous asset to the members of the committee in being able to appreciate more fully some of the social and economic problems confronting the native Indian person on the reserve itself.
I know many native Indian people. We have a large complement of them in northern British Columbia. I know many of them personally and have visited their villages and their homes. I have had correspondence from other Indians I have come to know during the past few years. I know they have extremely high hopes for the result arising out of this committee functioning. It is not only the Indians who have high hopes. But certainly those are the ones whose activities, interest and welfare should be kept in mind throughout the functioning of this particular committee. In its consideration of the problems, its reception of briefs and in its Anal recommendation I hope the committee will not disappoint either the Indians or anyone else in the hopes they have for something beneficial arising out of the efforts of the committee.
Mr. J. S. Speakman (Weiaskiwin):: I should like to say a word or two in conection with the appointment of this committee since I had the privilege last November of sitting in for two days at the meeting of the general council of the Indians of Alberta and hearing the resolutions which they desire to present to this committee upon its formation. I was rather amazed to find the change of attitude on the part of the hon. member for Bona-vista-Twillingate (Mr. Pickersgill) who was the previous minister of this department. I recall an instance in 1956 when his, in my opinion, little knowledge of his department almost led to the severance from the band in Hobbema of some 117 Indians who had every right to live there. I think the sooner this committee can get formed and get to work, the sooner this committee can hear representations from Indians all across Canada so that their ideas will be incorporated in any changes which may be made to the act. I may say that the council meeting I attended discussed and approved 29 resolutions and they are anxiously waiting to have them presented to this committee. I presume that would be the case with respect to Indian bands and Indian councils all across Canada.
The hon. member for Bonavista-Twillin-gate also paid some attention apparently to trying to direct the affairs of this committee.
I should like to suggest to him that this matter will be in capable hands.
The hon. member for Skeena (Mr. Howard) made mention of the fact that five of the
Joint Committee to Study Indian Act provincial governments will send representations and he chastised in a mild way the government of the province of Alberta. But I suggest to him that perhaps the government of Alberta feel that the federal representatives of the constituencies in which there are Indians will take care of the interests of the Indians in those constituencies, as we are elected to represent our Indians as well as non-Indians.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I did not want to interrupt the hon. member while he was speaking, but I believe I have a right to make a correction of something he said in his speech. He said that I had changed my attitude since certain events at Hobbema. I should like to remind the hon. gentleman that as soon as my advice was taken, and that case was taken into the courts where it should have been taken in the first place, justice was done.
(Translation):


Mr. Alexis Caron (Hull):: Mr. Speaker, I am happy to tell the minister that the proposed committee is certainly likely to help achieve the purpose in view, that of meeting various personalities who are to consider the position of the Canadian Indians. But I wonder how this committee will be able to obtain the general views of our Indians. As you know, Indians have a deep distrust of white men, and I don't blame them for feeling this way, because they are perfectly right.
In fact, when we go back into history we see just what white men brought to the Indians, who had been absolute masters of this American continent to which they had a primary right.
The first thing that Cartier did after landing at Gaspe was to kidnap two Indians that he took back to France with him and exhibited to the French as new specimens of what were considered almost as monkeys.
Then, Champlain, just to show the greatness of white men, used his musket to shoot down those poor helpless Indians.
Later on, the English and the French, with their fire-water, attempted to steal pelts from those poor savages who did not know of their value.
Later, again by means of fire-water, the Indians-to whom we have too long referred to as savages, in a deprecatory sense-were led to take part in wars and to be killed on behalf of the white men.
1902	HOUSE OF
Joint Committee to Study Indian Act
We also know that, in western Canada, Indians and half-breeds were dispossessed of their property in favour of the Canadian Pacific.
Mr. Speaker, what have the white men given them in return? Tuberculosis was unknown among those people. White men transmitted that germ to those people who were then decimated for centuries, the government having felt in recent years the necessity of intervening and of dealing with the matter. That disease had been brought to the Indians by white men.
Before the arrival of white men, Indians of Canada respected individual property and did not seek to appropriate it for themselves. They hunted, accumulated a stock of pelts, which they stored in trees and picked up intact in the spring. It was the white man who taught the Indian to steal.
A missionary, not too familiar with Indian customs, had gone visiting several Indian villages. He and his Indian guide came to a lake shore on which they pulled up their canoe containing provisions for several weeks. The Indian took out some of the provisions, leaving the rest in the canoe. The missionary asked how much food was left and the Indian replied: "We have enough to last us until tomorrow."
The priest said: "Is there no danger of this food being stolen?" And the Indian replied: "No, Father, there are no white men around."
So, that evil, and theft, was brought from Europe by white men.
Therefore, I am inclined to believe that we will not be able to gather here all those people who should be here, all the Indians who should be consulted, before anything is imposed on them.
When and how will we be able to know their view?
The committee may produce certain documents, as the hon. member for Winnipeg North (Mr. Smith) said, but what tribes will come here and make their views known?
The bands that sat for two days and prepared twenty nine resolutions will certainly come. But do they represent the majority of Indians? I do not think so.
I know that most of the Indians of the province of Quebec do not seem to be in favour of this bill, not because they do not want to vote, but because they fear the white man; they are afraid that, in exchange for a favour, the white man will take something away from them. They have been given reservations, yes, but the areas of those reservations have been cut down, and besides their sites have been changed when it seemed


necessary to do so to make room for the white man. Because of all these things, the Indians no longer trust the white man- (Text):


James Stanley Speakman: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, the hon. member is not discussing the motion before the house. He is discussing amendments which are now before the house in Bill No. C-2 and Bill No. C-3, I think.


Alexis Pierre Caron: On the point of order, Mr. Speaker, I am afraid the hon. member for Wetaskiwin (Mr. Speakman) is completely wrong. I am just proving that it will be practically impossible to get the point of view in that committee of the Indians, because they do not believe in the white people. I cannot discuss this matter when Bill No. C-2 is presented to the house. Mr. Speaker, if we are to reach the Indians we will have to do so in some other way, such as a referendum, and that is what I am trying to establish. ^ I believe I have the right to do so at this time on the presentation of this motion to form a committee.
(Translation):
That is what I meant, Mr. Speaker. There is only one way to go about it and it would be to attempt, through some kind of organization, to spread useful information among all our Indian bands of the province of Quebec and elsewhere.
We often talk about the bill of rights, but are we doing anything to allow every Indian to speak for himself and in his own right, as he is entitled to, so that we could be told what he wants? This is what I am asking for. I ask that the committee find some way to convene in Ottawa all the Indians in this country. Or, as the hon. member for Skeena (Mr. Howard) said, we should suggest that the committee travel about so as to meet the greatest possible number of Indians in their environment and find out about their wishes.
Judging from the survey recently made by Mr. Rene Levesque, we find at least as far as province of Quebec Indians are concerned that the Indian mistrusts and fears the white man.


Mr. Pigeon:: Would the hon. member for Hull allow me a question?


Alexis Pierre Caron: Certainly.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Since Senator Gladstone sits on the committee, he is in fact the chairman of the committee, could he not act as spokesman for the Indians?


Alexis Pierre Caron: I agree that his presence there is a good thing. However, I do not agree that, in itself, it automatically gives recognition to all the Indians, because the first right of an Indian is to speak for himself, personally and in his own behalf. That's the point.

(Text):
Mr. Huber! Badanai (Fori William): Mr. Speaker, before the white man came over the stormy Atlantic to take over this continent, the original Canadian Indian lived here. We call them Indians, but I think "original Canadians" would be a better name for them. The Indians lived a simple life and knew the wonders of life as expressed in forests and water; they knew the beauty of waterfalls and the silence of the woods. It was a land that, from the moment of discovery, was to be a land which would absorb all of the customs and creeds of the old world and yet retain limits of beauty of the past, such as the warrior and feather head dress, the stone carvings, handicrafts of all hues, ornamental headbands, the totem pole-


Mr. Graffiey:: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, I see that the hon. member has produced and prepared a very interesting speech, but I do not think it is in relation to the setting up of the committee we are discussing at the present time. I feel that his preliminary remarks are certainly out of order at the present time.


Frank Howard: Mr. Speaker, on the point of order which has been raised may I say that I think this is a most interesting and enlightening way of bringing to the attention of this house the need of the committee to understand and appreciate the cultural background and development of the Indian population. I think it is quite in order for the hon. member to use this means to relate some of the things which the committee might consider.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, it is perhaps almost trespassing on the time of the house after what the hon. member for Skeena (Mr. Howard) has just said, but I would like to say that it did seem to me that the hon. member for Fort William (Mr. Badanai) was simply attempting to underline the gravity of the problem and the nature of the problem which the committee is to undertake to study. That has been habitual in this house ever since I have been observing its customs.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Some leeway has been allowed up to now in this debate, although I would think that some of the remarks made have not been relevant. I remind hon. members that the motion before the house is simply seeking approval for the setting up of a special committee. I appreciate that the hon. member for Fort William (Mr. Badanai) is only laying the grounds for his argument, and I am sure he will discuss the subject matter of the motion in a few moments.


Hubert Badanai: Thank you. I was merely trying to build up a historical background
Joint Committee to Study Indian Act which I believe to be proper, when the Indian question is brought before the house.
As I was saying, the Indians were responsible for our heritage of many objects of great beauty and interest; the canoes, the cradle boards, the tepees, the wigwams, the birch bark canoes, the marks and false faces for medicine men, the wampum belts, the Iroquois moccasins, the peace pipes, ceremonial blankets and thousands of relics of our early day culture.
It may be interesting for some people to know that our Indian population is not dwindling. Approximately 173,000 of our Indians are Canadian, members of 70 tribes living in about 2,200 reservations. It is estimated that the population is larger now than it was when the white man first arrived 400 years ago. In Canada, a man is an Indian if his father was. A white woman who marries an Indian becomes one herself.
The contribution of the Indians to our national growth and development has been considerable. Thousands of them have served in all theatres of activities during world wars. Indians also did war work in factories, on railroads, and on farms during hostilities. They have also made magnificent contributions to the arts, in painting, in wood-carving and in the athletic field. One of them became a great actor of international fame. His name was Will Rogers. Charles Curtis, an American Indian, became vice-president of the United States.
Few realize that the Indian has contributed to the white man's world of foods. We got beans, squash, white and sweet potatoes, and maple sugar, to say nothing of tobacco and chewing gum-


William Heward Grafftey: I am going to insist on this point of order-


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: I was about to rise to tell the hon. member that the subject matter of this debate is as follows:
That a joint committee of the Senate and House of Commons be set up to continue the examination and consideration begun by a joint committee of the Senate and the House of Commons pursuant to a resolution of the house on April 29, 1959, of the Indian Act-


Hubert Badanai: I appreciate the point of order, although I cannot see a valid reason why the hon. member for Brome-Missisquoi should make any objection to what I am saying.


William Heward Grafftey: I am not objecting to what you are saying.


John Whitney Pickersgill: The hon. member needs a little advertising?


William Heward Grafftey: On a point of order, I am not objecting to what the hon. member for Fort William has said. All I am saying is
1904	HOUSE OF
Joint Committee to Study Indian Act that he is taking up the time of the house by making a speech which is irrelevant. The hon. member has already been called to order, and I think this is not the time to continue that sort of discussion, although I agree with everything he has said.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: I have already given my ruling, and I do not think it is necessary for hon. members to continue to discuss it, directly or indirectly.


Hubert Badanai: I am very keen on this subject.


William Heward Grafftey: I realize that.


An hon. Member:: Order.


Hubert Badanai: I am very interested in the problems of our Indian population, and I wish to bring to the attention of the house the contributions which the Indian people have made.
The Indians have fought side by side with their fellow Canadians in two wars, and while those who served in the Canadian army have had their right to vote at federal elections, those who were too old or too young for army service did not have voting privileges. Chief Walking Buffalo, an 88-year old retired chieftain of the Stoney Indians of western Canada, speaking at a meeting on Mackinac island, Michigan, last November, stood up and said:
I stand before you with no jealousy, no pride, no bitterness against any race or any nation in the whole world.
As we are now considering the setting up of this committee and, in addition, a bill which will grant the right to vote to the Indian population, I could not let this occasion go by without passing on to hon. members the words of this wise old Indian who has perhaps more reason to be sceptical of the white man's promises than most other people in the world.
I believe that the key to a new future for the Indians of Canada is for our governments -and I mean all levels of government-to extend to them not only the right to vote but the right to all our educational facilities. If we fail to give them what I consider to be their just due, such a failure would amount to a betrayal of good faith.
The minister made a statement last year to the effect that education is the key to a promising future for the Indians. I fully agree with that statement, and I urge the minister to implement her good intentions and to transform those intentions into a policy to make educational facilities available to every Indian child.
Last September, at my invitation, Senator Gladstone paid a visit to the Ojibwa Indian


band at Fort William. We had a meeting in the Chippewa park pavilion, attended by 200 Indians, the mayor and aldermen of the city, and other elected representatives. The senator addressed the gathering and stressed the need for Indians to acquire the same status and rights as any other citizens without endangering their treaty rights. After the speeches he talked to many of the members of the local reserve. The meeting served to point out the fact that the Indian cannot make his living under the old treaty rights of fishing and trapping alone. Their children should be kept in school until they reach the age of 18, and better arrangements should be made with the secondary schools to enable them to attend. Transportation to and from the schools, which are generally several miles away from the children's homes, should be provided.
These are problems affecting the Indian population of the district of Thunder Bay, and I have no doubt they have application to other parts of Canada. Indians in other areas may have different problems, but in the main one is bound to admit that the general status of these original Canadians is much below the standard enjoyed by the rest of the population. Only recently I heard a report to the effect that Indians in Manitoba were on a semistarvation diet. If it is true, this is a serious indictment of our entire Indian policy.
I cannot think of a better way to plead on behalf of the Indian people for a better understanding of their problems than by quoting from one of the many Indian legends in which Indian lore is so rich. Begochiddy, the god of creation, approached twin boys out on a hunt and told them they had been born of the sun and must now visit their father. He gave them a ray of light and a rainbow to help them make the long journey into the heavens. He told them that of all things their father might offer they must bring back only the flint armour, the lightning arrows, the stone knife and a magic fire stick.
The twins rode the light and the rainbow over deep canyons, rivers and sky-piercing mountains. The time passed quickly, daybreak, the afterglow of sunset, the dusk and the darkness, until they reached the house where the spirit of the sun lived with other heavenly spirits and his messenger the dragonfly. To make certain the boys were his own, the sun put them through severe trials. He threw them onto spikes, smothered them with steam, exposed them to storms and freezing nights. The boys convinced their father by enduring all the tortures and then the twins returned by rainbow and light to the earth, carrying the magic weapons.

The Indians, as in legend, have in reality been smothered with the steam of promises, they have been exposed to storms and freezing nights because of poor shelters, and heaven knows they have been exposed to prejudice.
I wish to quote briefly from a study of attitudes toward Indians and people of Indian descent made by a sociologist of the University of Manitoba and by Fraser Earle, regional director of the Canadian council of Christians and Jews who in their conclusions state:
The Indian will live among, and have contact with, people whose general level of education is closer to his own when he comes into the urban centre. The Indian has a general level of education that averages grade six. The white population has a general education which averages about grade nine. The Indian will be more likely to deal with persons of lower educational standing in terms of social contact, than with people whose education is advanced. It is more likely that the Indian will be in contact with people having elementary school education or none at all, rather than in social contact with persons of university education.


Mr. Brunsden:: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. Are we discussing Indians in Canada -and we all have sympathy for them-or are we discussing a motion which will create a joint committee to investigate the Indian situation in this country? It seems to me this discussion is premature and the hon. member could raise his point when we are discussing the bill. It is my understanding that we are now discussing a motion.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I should like to speak to the point of order. The hon. member for Skeena (Mr. Howard) and I argued that this committee should be established in order, as much as anything else, to study means to improve the education of Indians. My friend the hon. member for Fort William (Mr. Badanai) whom I have been following quite closely was just giving us an illustration of how important it is that these educational standards should be raised and was seeking to impress upon those who will be serving in the committee how essential it is that that study should be given priority.


Mr. Winch:: Mr. Speaker, this is the third or fourth time this point of order has been raised. I direct your attention to the motion in which we find these words:
That a joint committee of the Senate and House of Commons be appointed ... with authority to investigate and report upon Indian administration in general and, in particular, on the social and economic status of the Indians;
Those words appear in the motion, in the terms of reference. It would therefore appear evident to me that we are free to discuss anything relating to the life of the Indian.
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Mr. Deputy Speaker:: I have already indicated that I had no objection to some historical references on this motion. Although the remarks of the hon. member were very interesting many were not relevant and I would ask him to try and discuss the committee and its work. As I said, reviewing the history of Indians is not relevant to the motion. Some of the comments the hon. member made were relevant but I would say most were not and I would ask him to try to adhere to the subject matter of the motion.


Hubert Badanai: Mr. Speaker, I am asking
leave of the house merely to finish my quotation because it is pertinent to what I am discussing in relation to the Indian problem which will be taken up by the committee. I continue the quotation as follows:
Persons who completed elementary school objected vigorously to the suggestion that their children should play with Indian children. There was no objection to this suggestion among university graduates. To the question about including Indians in a party in the home, eighteen point six per cent (18.6 per cent) of the elementary school group objected. None of the university group objected. Similarly, eighteen point two per cent (18.2 per cent) without formal education objected to Indians being hired as teachers; there was a much weaker objection by university educated people. In general, there is a good deal of resistance to Indians being given status in the many situations where it is required. By this we mean, having their children play with Indian children, go to school with Indian children, being taught by an Indian. These suggestions met more resistance from people with little education as compared with those having advanced education.
The conclusion is that there is not a widespread incidence of extreme prejudice toward Indians and persons of Indian descent, but, enough prejudice exists in significant areas of contact that its effect will be felt by the Indians. The persons he is most likely to work with and have social contact with in the urban centre, are the people who seem to be more highly prejudiced toward him.
It appears from our survey that the degree of contact, or the information that people have, about Indians, has little to do with their attitudes toward them. People with no information about or contact with Indians were as prejudiced in as many situations as those persons having contact and having information. This would seem to confirm a statement made in the introduction that stereotypes are accepted uncritically by some people. It may also be concluded that more education makes people more tolerant of the Indian's need to be accepted and recognized in the community.
What we really need is a better understanding of the Indian people by encouraging intermingling and friendly intercourse with the people of other origins.
The suggestion made by the hon. member for Skeena to enable members of the committee to visit some of the reserves where conditions may warrant such a visit is a valuable suggestion. Perhaps the minister would select the reserves to be visited.
I believe that the Indians of our generation have earned the right to better housing and
1906	HOUSE OF
Joint Committee to Study Indian Act to equal opportunities for education, employment and a general improvement of their standards of living. I submit that this government should without undue delay give our Indians a new charter, a charter of equality enjoyed by all Canadians.


Mr. H. C. McQuillan (Comox-Alberni):: Mr. Speaker, as one who was a member of a similar committee last year and as one who comes from one of the areas of Canada with the most concentrated Indian population along the British Columbia coast I wholeheartedly support the setting up of this committee. Unfortuately, there was not time last year for too much progress to be made by the committee, but we did have a sufficient number of meetings to enable us to grasp some understanding of what we might accomplish, and we heard some excellent witnesses.
I am sorry that the Indians across the river do not trust their white neighbours in Hull, because the Indians who came down here to meet the committee seemed to have full confidence in the fact that this government was prepared to give them a fair shake. We had the Reverend Dr. Peter Kelly, who is a native Indian and was born on the Queen Charlotte islands in the Haida tribe and Robert Clifton, one of my near neighbours and president of the native brotherhood of British Columbia. This is an indication of the type of spokesman that we can expect to have before this committee.
I am sorry I have not my copy of Longfellow with me because I might cite Hiawatha, but I think the hon. member for Fort William (Mr. Badanai) gave us enough literature today.
One thing that has concerned me has been what is to me the appalling waste of manpower that is allowed to go on with regard to our Indian population. Our Indian population is approximately 180,000. I do not know how many of those would be men able to work but it would be a considerable percentage. As a logging operator on the coast of British Columbia at times I have had the opportunity of employing quite a number of Indians, and it has worked out very well. I have been very pleased with the work they have performed and they appear to have been very happy to work for me.
One of the problems in employment there is the lack of co-ordination among industry, employment bureaus, the Indian population and the Indian officials in order to arrive at some plan where knowledge is available to the employment officers and


to the companies as to where Indians are available for work at certain jobs. They have made excellent workmen in some fields, particularly in the field of machine operation and in the field of rafting and boom work. In those fields they have been outstanding. I have already spoken to the minister about hopes that the department could evolve some scheme whereby a greater use might be made of this potential labour force. I know that attention is being given to it right now; I know it is a problem. One of the main problems with regard to the Indian population all across the country is the lack of interest on the part of business and industry in employing Indians, and I think that business and industry are missing a great opportunity in many instances.
I must say I have been very much impressed with the confidence the Indians have expressed in the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration (Mrs. Fairclough) and in the way she is carrying on her responsibilities. There seems to be a new feeling of confidence, one that has not been there for a long time, and also a new confidence in the officials of the Indian affairs branch of the department, an entirely different attitude from that which obtained not so many years ago.
I am sure that this committee will be a worth-while one; I am sure that it is going to have a tremendous amount of work to do and that it will have to listen to, of course, a large number of witnesses to get a comprehensive picture of the overall problem. I know that the Indians in my area are looking forward with great interest to the establishment of this committee, to the final report and to the amendments which will be forthcoming to the act as a result of the report.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Mr. Speaker, I am glad to support this particular motion. In the remarks I make I want to emphasize particularly one topic and that has to do with the relationship of forestry to the Indians. When we look at the figures for the number of Indians in Ontario, which are over 40,000, we realize that the majority of that 40,000 lives in the boreal forest area. I think we are entitled to say we are disappointed at the failure of the Indians living in this particular region to play a larger part in an economic sense in the forestry field.
When we look at the report put out, I believe, in the past year by the Indian affairs

branch on the Canadian Indian-a reference paper-we find that it says on page 17:
Agriculture ranks next to trapping, hunting and fishing in importance, particularly in the prairie provinces, southern Ontario and parts of British Columbia.
If trapping and agriculture are the two main economic fields in which the Indian is drawing his income and at the same time the majority of the Indians in Ontario are living in the boreal forest region, which also happens to support Ontario's greatest industry, it seems that the Indians, or the Indian affairs branch, have been missing an opportunity, which I think should be the subject of the committee's study.
The pull of the Indians in my particular constituency, in the west and the north and to the east in the Cochrane area, is more and more in the last decade toward some kind of gainful opportunity and employment on a steady basis and away from the rather nomadic kind of existence they have had. The minister has had a prize illustration of this in the conundrum which she has faced recently over the establishment of an Indian reservation at Macdiarmid, Ontario. Mac-diarmid happens to be on the east side of lake Nipigon and a number of Indians have moved there on their own. I am pleased to note that the branch has taken action and is going to erect a number of houses there and in fact establish a reserve.
I do not want to go into the bitterness that emerged in the community over this particular move. I am on the side of the Indian affairs branch in establishing the reserve there. In my talks with the Indians at this particular place it was interesting to me to realize how keen they are now to get into some kind of basic employment. They realize that that employment must fit into the regular picture of employment in the boreal forest. Of course, the regular picture of the boreal forest, if you want to work at it, has to tie in with mining, with forestry or with transportation. We can rule out the field of technical aspects of mining and of transportation in boreal forests for Indians these days, but we can expect a greater contribution and a greater opportunity for the Indians on the pulp and paper limits and in the pulp and paper operations. This is separate from the forested land which the Indians themselves have, but about which I want to make some remarks in a few minutes.
It seems to me that this particular committee, in so far as it is studying economic and social aspects of the Indian problem, especially in Ontario-and I think this spills over into northern Manitoba, into the boreal section of Saskatchewan, and perhaps of Alberta-there is not anything more important 79951-0-120J
Joint Committee to Study Indian Act than the development of a policy that will give the Indians work on bush operations within the pulp and paper industry where there is a growing stability of operation and growing opportunity.
I have told the house and the minister before that it is not easy to get our Indians from Ontario to do this kind of work on a constructive and consistent basis. They tend to work for a week or two, get a bit of money and away they go. It takes a great deal of encouragement and a great deal of patience on the part of employers, contractors or anyone having anything to do with Indians. They do not come naturally to a settled working existence in the woods side of the pulp and paper industry but if we do not make the effort it seems to me that the only thing left for the Indian in our particular kind of country is as a sort of picturesque guide without too much basic means of earning a living because you cannot mistake the fact that northern Ontario, all the way from Kenora eastward to Sudbury and to the north, is becoming more and more a summer dormitory for the American midwestern states. The movement in of United States tourists and also the development of a patchwork of roads and consolidation of operations by the large pulp and paper companies means that the old traditional existence based upon trapping, fishing and drawing subsistence from the land itself just is not possible any more and is becoming more and more difficult for the Indian.
This is the explanation of why 120 Indians have drifted away from the east shore of lake Nipigon, where they had, I think, a rather good establishment, where they were well supported by the Indian affairs branch, to the magnet of the highway and opportunities for gainful employment of some continuing kind.
It seems to me that with this kind of development taking place in this country, with the movement in of the tourists, with the consolidation and stabilization of the pulp and paper operations, we have to make a strenuous, planned effort that will require much patience and a certain minimum amount of technical education in order to enable our Indians to draw an income from the kind of existence that is based upon jobs as pulp cutters, bush workers, timber cruisers and so on. At the presnt time very few Indians in our area are successful.
One of the places I should like the committee to visit is Pickle Crow which happens to be in my constituency. I worked there as; a miner before the war and I can still remember the shock I felt the first day I was in Pickle Crow. I came out of the cookhouse
1908	HOUSE OF
Joint Committee to Study Indian Act and there were a number of garbage cans there. I could see these figures scrabbling around the garbage cans with flies in clouds all around. I asked who they were and someone remarked, "Those are our blueberry blondes". It was a bunch of squaws digging in the garbage pails.
Pickle Crow Gold Mines made an effort during the war because of the manpower shortage to see if they could not utilize some of the Indians in various operations around the mines. From letters I have had from several acquaintances who work there it appears that Pickle Crow have had rather phenomenal success in the light of the general tendency of the bush Indian to shy away from a regular kind of routine. From the information I have I gather there is enough of an example at Pickle Crow in the use of Indians, particularly on surface work and in cutting timber and that kind of thing fitting into the underground operations, to make it a place well worth visiting by the committee or a subcommittee. They could see whether the plan that has worked at Pickle Crow could not be extended on a much wider basis and also whether the kind of approach which was used there could not be effective with the pulp and paper companies.
If this were done I think the committee might come up with practical recommendations which would enable us to get the Indian into something that will give him the kind of pride and confidence that I have noticed among certain Indians at Macdiarmid who through their own organizing ability have managed to get fishing contracts and pulp-wood cutting contracts and as a result have gone away up in the scale. One man there who is the leading Indian in the community said to me, "I haven't any education but by God I am going to get it for my children whether the Indian affairs branch will do it or not". He did not have any particular chip against the Indian affairs branch but he felt that this just had to come.
When I see an example like that I can overlook all the drunken Indians you may see on the streets of Kenora, Hornepayne, Nakina and other northern towns where they tend to be a bit of a joke, where they are sort of looked upon as riff-raff and are tossed out of the beer parlours all the time late on Saturday night. Some of you may think that is loose talk. It is not. I was born in northwestern Ontario. I spent most of my time in the bush and in the bush communities, and the Indian has never had much status there. It is a real tragedy.
A few years ago I taught a boy who went as far as any Indian from northwestern Ontario ever did, at least up to that time. He


got to first year university and then he finally failed. I spent quite a bit of time tutoring him and I knew his capabilities. He had average capabilities and with a great deal of work he could have made it through university. Somehow he was not able to apply himself and I think it was because of his home conditions. I know what they were and they were not good. I saw him two years later and I was terribly disappointed because he had reverted right back. You would never know this was the alert, bright boy who had been reading Trevelyan and other such works. He was right back almost in the worst of conditions in so far as clothes and everything else was concerned.
So you have to follow through all the way with the Indians in our part of the country and be prepared for tremendous disappointments. That is why I hope the committee will not be one of those dundering committees that ambles and meanders along. I hope that all members of the committee will realize the seriousness of the problem and the tremendous achievements they can make in terms of recommending and developing policy.
I want to make some remarks about forest policy so far as Indian lands in Canada are concerned. The minister's office was good enough to make a return in answer to a question I placed on the order paper. We have in Canada at the present time approximately 2,400 square miles of Indian reserve lands that the department believes are capable of intensive forest management. In her return the minister answered my question as to how many professional foresters are at the disposal of the department in order to implement forest management plans.
I know that the hon. member for Comox-Alberni (Mr. McQuillan), for example, could argue that the number of professional foresters is not necessarily a valid indicator of how well you are approaching the management of forested land, but when you consider that there are very few people in the Indian affairs branch who have forestry experience on the forest management side, when you consider that there are no Indians in eastern Canada anywhere to my knowledge who have professional experience in forestry, these figures are rather sad. I asked a question as to how much of this land was now under forest management and got these figures. In British Columbia there are 900 square miles that could be under forest management but only 400 square miles are. In Alberta there are 100 square miles that could be under forest management and none is. As to Saskatchewan, they do not know

how much land there could be under forest management and so the answer is none. In Manitoba the same situation exists.
In other words, in the two eastern prairie provinces, despite the number of Indians they have in the boreal forest area, there is no conception of how much land could be put under forest management; in fact, no conception of the forest management aspect at all. So far as Ontario is concerned, there are 1,250 square miles that could be under the forest management and approximately 1,000 square miles are.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: I hesitate to interrupt the hon. member but in view of the previous discussion as to the relevancy of the debate I think I should draw to his attention the fact that he is anticipating the work of the committee. What we have to discuss is whether or not we should appoint the committee. Are the powers wide enough or not wide enough? If the problems the hon. member has in mind can be covered by the powers given to the committee, then it is not relevant to discuss them now. The committee will have to investigate the problems. If they are not covered by the powers given to the committee, the discussion will be relevant. Otherwise I think it is not relevant.


John Whitney Pickersgill: On the point of order raised by Your Honour may I say this? I feel that having regard to the customs and procedures that have been followed in this house not only in all the years I have been a member-which are not very many-but in all the years I have observed it, it has been usual to permit a reasonable amount of discussion, within the terms of reference, of the direction in which hon. members-many of whom will not have a chance to participate in the work of the committee-feel the committee should concentrate its efforts.
I would also draw Your Honour's attention to the fact that in the earlier part of the debate that was what was done by several hon. members who were quite reasonably permitted to do it and I did not think that the hon. member for Port Arthur (Mr. Fisher) was straying from that.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: I realize that some references may be made, but to refer in detail, as the hon. member for Port Arthur has been doing, for instance, to the problem he has just been discussing, I think is going too far. I agree that some leeway has been given, but when you give some leeway to one hon. member you must give some leeway to every hon. member and finally the whole debate is irrelevant. That is why I ask the hon. member for Port Arthur to co-operate with the Chair.
Joint Committee to Study Indian Act


Douglas Mason Fisher: There is one remark I should like to make in this regard-it is not so much in rebuttal-and it is this. If I am out of order, I think all the previous speakers have been out of order.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, no.


Douglas Mason Fisher: The essence of my remarks was that in so far as the forests and the forested lands are concerned that are under the Indian affairs branch, this is one of the points the committee must look into. It is one of the economic points. I wanted to underline this point in the hope that some of the members of the committee would hear it. I will not be on the committee. There are not enough of us for that to be possible, although I should like to be on it. That was the relevance of my request that the committee visit Pickle Crow, Ontario where mining is concerned. One of the points that is involved in the terms of reference is this. I could perhaps argue that they should be wider, but I wanted to refer to this one. I referred to it once previously in the house and there has been a slight trend of improvement. I wanted to refer to the election returns in Ontario where the Indians have had a vote. It is one of the things I think the committee will be discussing.
As I have indicated, we have a number of Indians in the Port Arthur area. I wanted to make the point through an illustration from the Port Arthur area returns of just what is involved in this matter for the government. I thought I had it, Mr. Speaker, but I find that I have been sent the wrong information so I shall be obliged to dispense with that illustration. The point I wanted to make in this regard is that at Lansdowne House, for example, where you have an almost entirely Indian population with the exception of three white men, in the second last Ontario election, the first one where the Indians had a vote, there were 235 votes for the Conservative candidate, as I remember the figures; four for the Liberals; one for the communists; and none for the C.C.F. There was a bit of improvement in the last Ontario election at the same place. There was also a smaller vote. I do not know what the significance of that fact may be. But in the last election at Lansdowne House the Conservatives had only 134 votes, a drop of over 100. The Liberal vote remained steady at four. The C.C.F. managed to get four votes.
One of the things that attracted me when I first looked at the statistics from the election-the penultimate-was this. Here we had people the majority of whom could not read nor write and there was not one rejected ballot in over 200 that were put in. As all hon. members know, in the cities there is
1910	HOUSE OF
Joint Committee to Study Indian Act an average of one or two rejected ballots even in places where people can read and write. This fact indicated to me that the Indians in this particular place had magnificent guidance, I think the kind that government members will appreciate. At this election there were four rejected ballots. Perhaps we can see some progress being made as to the adaptation of the Indians to democracy. But the tremendous swing in the Indian vote in northern Ontario, depending on the amount of direct pressure that is put on them, is to me an indicator that this committee, in its examination of the economic and social aspects of Indian improvement, should look into the question of whether the Indians in our particular part of the country are going to get and should get the right kind of training, advice and leadership, let us say, in political matters, but not to make them party stooges, not have it so that everyone-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I think the hon. member is anticipating the debate on the next bill which has to do with voting rights of Indians. Perhaps he could assist the house in coming to a conclusion on the question of whether we should set up this committee.


Douglas Mason Fisher: In that case, Mr. Speaker, may I just say this? I knew these particular statistics in question would delight the government side of the house, indicating how solidly based the government is among the Indians in Port Arthur constituency. But before they start clapping I should like them to go and look at the results, say in Kenora, where the Liberals are in there and the balance is almost as much the other way.
In conclusion may I say that I think this committee can do a magnificent job, especially if it concentrates on ways of giving the Indians an economy based on the kind of hinterland economy we have in Canada at the present time and which is increasing in its trend toward the kind of economy that does not permit the old hunting-trapping subsistance background of the boreal forest Indian.


Harold Edward Winch: should like to have a little bit to say on this motion, Mr. Speaker. We are all exceedingly pleased that the committee on Indian affairs is going to be reconvened. I am particularly happy about it, having had a great interest in the Indians in British Columbia for the past 25 years. I want to express the hope that it is going to be a working committee that will face up to the issues and to the realities of the situation with regard to the economy and the social conditions of our native Indian population


today, with the idea of bringing about recommendations for policies that will, in their eventuality, mean a real integration of a native Indian population with all others.
I am most happy that the committee has been appointed because it is my belief that in the past we have been unfair to the native Indians of Canada and that we are being unfair to them at the present time. I think it is high time that we really gave thought to them. In speaking about the appointment of a committee and about the first and the real Canadians it is quite easy to express a sloppy sentimentality and emotionalism and perhaps even some suggestions of money spent and jobs done. But the fact remains that we have not done a good job for them.
The resolution which is now before us is one asking not only for the authority to appoint a joint committee, but in the opening paragraph sets out the terms of reference. I am most interested in the part which says-
-authority to investigate and report upon Indian administration in general and, in particular, on the social and economic status of the Indians:
As was pointed out by the previous speaker, much as I think all hon. members would like to be on that committee, such of course is not possible. Therefore it is only when this motion is before the house that, under those terms of reference I have referred to, we have an opportunity of giving an indication of what we trust is meant by the minister in using the words "the social and economic status of the Indians". If such a study is going to be done on a factual and realistic basis, a lot of hard realities will have to be faced by the members of that committee, and I sincerely hope and trust that such matters are faced. Subjects which I hope are included in the words "social and economic status" are matters appertaining to education, to community services, to welfare, to employment, to the maintenance of Indian culture and to the development of Indian crafts.
I hope that the interpretation of those words in the terms of reference will allow in particular a study of the question of education of Indians, because, Mr. Speaker, although I know it is a matter of a controversial nature I have felt for a long time that something is wrong with government policy where, from the cradle and right through the years of childhood education, the education of Indians in the main is on a segregationist basis. They are educated on a separate schools basis for native Indians only, and when they come from those schools and enter the Canadian economy they are expected to become assimilated and able to carry on.

Over the years British Columbia has made some advances in integrating the native children in the schools, and I think it has worked out exceedingly well. I hope that that is one of the phases which will be studied. The committee should investigate whether or not you can look after the social and economic needs of Indians if they are kept completely segregated in their childhood and their educational period in life.
I hope, that the terms of reference mean that a real study is going to be made of the community services and the social welfare of our native Indians. It is unfortunate, I think, that when they approach their teens and their adulthood and try to come into the general economy they are ignored and neglected. I think one reason for this is that we expect our Indian agents to be social welfare workers, which they are not although they have to spend a great deal of time being so.
In addition to all those aspects-and I do not want to take up too much time-is the question of employment. I feel that we have a responsibility in this committee when dealing with the economic status and welfare of Indians not to expect them to have to go outside the reservations completely because there is no employment in their immediate area. With the funds at the disposal of the department, or if they have not got the funds, through the medium of government, there should be a policy of developing the Indians in their economy if we are not going to make provision for them to be assimilated into the general economy outside of their own native economy.
So I say, Mr. Speaker, that to me this is a most important committee. We have had them in the past and they have done a fairly good job, although a great deal has fallen through. Personally, I feel as a member of parliament, and previous to that as a member of the legislature, that we have betrayed the native Indians of our country, because by this time they should have been assimilated as first class citizens. I feel a great deal of the responsibility for that is not on the native Indians but on ourselves, and I sincerely hope that the terms of reference, in particular the reference to the social and economic status of the Indians and the administration of the department and matters of legislation, mean what they say and that we are going to have a committee which really studies these questions, controversial as they may be, and then bring in recommendations of a wonderful nature and present them to a government with the fortitude to follow through.
Royal Assent


Mr. Speaker:: I must remind the house that if the hon. member speaks now she will close the debate.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Speaker, it is not my intention to speak at any length. I can find no fault with anything that has been said this afternoon. I think all hon. members of the house are keenly interested in this committee, and I am pleased that we are establishing the committee some seven or eight weeks earlier than we did last year, and I hope a great deal more can be done during the current session than was done last year.
Mr. Speaker, during the recess last year it was my privilege to travel some 10,000 miles and visit 53 bands representative of over 220 reserves. In the course of those travels, which I made by way of plane, train, automobile and boat, I saw many and different situations. As has been said by some hon. members, some of these situations were rather deplorable and others were excellent.
You cannot have a common rule, as was said, I think, by the hon. member for Bona-vista-Twillingate (Mr. Pickersgill), which would be applicable to all of the Indians in Canada. In many cases you have to make your rules pretty much as you go along within the framework of the Indian Act as we have it today. I hope that when the time comes to make such amendments to the act as may be deemed wise by the committee we will have the co-operation of all hon. members, and I can assure those hon. members who have spoken on this subject that every care will be taken to have a proper expression of opinion from the Indians themselves so that, in any event, amendments which are made will not prove to be a mistake so far as the welfare of the Indians is concerned.
Mr. Speaker, just one last word, and that is that I agree with those who have said that education is the keynote. I have said that myself on many occasions, and I believe it very strongly. We have made rapid strides and we are still going forward, but there is much yet to be done. I would like to thank all hon. members who have participated in this debate and I trust they will enjoy the deliberations of the committee as it goes forward.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

Mr. Speaker:: I have the honour to inform the house that I have received the following communication:

Business of the House
Government House, Ottawa, March 7, 1960
Sir:
I have the honour to inform you that the Honourable Patrick Kerwin, Chief Justice of Canada, acting as Deputy of His Excellency the Governor General, will proceed to the Senate chamber on Wednesday, the 9th March, 1960 at 5.45 p.m., for the purpose of giving the royal assent to certain bills.
I have the honour to be, sir.
Your obedient servant,
E. Joly de Lotbiniere Secretary to the Governor General



INDIAN ACT


Ellen Louks Fairclough: the second reading of Bill No. C-2, to amend the Indian Act.
She said: The purpose of this bill is, in conjunction with Bill No. C-3, to remove the restrictions which presently stand in the way of the Indians of Canada exercising the federal franchise on an equal basis with other citizens.
It will come as a surprise to most members to learn that as far back as 1885 many of the Indians in Canada had the right to vote in federal elections. Prior to that date, the qualifications for voting in federal elections were governed by provincial acts but the franchise act of 1885 gave the right to vote to Indians living in all provinces east of Manitoba. The records reveal that Indians in Ontario, Quebec, and the maritime provinces exercised their franchise in the general elections of 1887, 1891 and 1896, in some instances at polling subdivisions established on reserves.
In 1898 the franchise act was repealed thus providing that provincial voters lists would again govern in determining the entitlement of persons eligible to vote in federal elections. As a result, the majority of the Indians lost their right to vote for ordinarily they were not on the provincial voters lists and in most cases were specifically disqualified as electors. Although Indian veterans of world wars I and II were granted the franchise in 1920 and 1944 respectively, and although their wives were given the franchise in 1948, the situation remained unchanged for the majority of the Indians until 1950, as they were disquali-

fled as electors by the 1920 dominion elections act.
During the late 1940's a special joint committee of the Senate and the House of Commons investigated Indian affairs and in its report recommended that the federal franchise be granted to all Indians. Amendments to the Canada Elections Act in 1950 and the Indian Act in 1951 implemented this recommendation in part. Indian veterans and their wives, and Indians ordinarily resident off reserves were given the franchise on the same basis as other citizens. However, the bulk of the Indian population, those ordinarily resident on reserves, were required to waive their statutory right to exemption from taxation on or in respect of personal property held on their reserves before they could exercise the franchise.
The proposal now before the house is that the restriction which applies to the Indians living on reserves be abolished so that all Indians will have the right to vote on the same basis as other citizens. Many reasons can be forwarded in support of this proposal. Foremost is the fact that it is not in keeping with our democratic principles that there should be citizens- and all Indians are citizens-who are restricted in the exercise of one of the fundamental rights of a democracy, the right to participate in the election of their repre-sentives in parliament.
Second, however well-intentioned, the present legislation has fallen far short of the objective recommended by the special joint committee of the Senate and the House of Commons.
Third, the present legislation has been quite unacceptable to the majority of the Indians resident on reserves, as is evidenced by the fact which I mentioned previously this afternoon, that since 1950 only 122 Indians out of an estimated 60,000 adult Indians residing on reserves have waived their exemption to taxation.
Fourth, in recent years more and more Indians and Indian groups have been pressing for the franchise free from the existing restriction.
Finally, there is the reason mentioned by the Prime Minister (Mr. Diefenbaker) in his speech to this house on January 18, namely that it will remove in the eyes of the world any suggestion that in Canada

colour or race places any citizen in an inferior category to other citizens of the country.
My comment that many Indians and Indian organizations have been pressing for the vote free from the existing restrictions was not intended to create the impression that all Indians are in favour of having the vote. There are some who are opposed, and their objection is apparently based on the fear that it will mean the loss of aboriginal or treaty rights. I am not aware of any legal basis for this fear and I would like to repeat again the assurance given to the Indians by the Prime Minister in this house on January 18, that existing rights and treaties, traditionally or otherwise, possessed by the Indians, will not in any way be abrogated or diminished in consequence of their having the right to vote.
The Prime Minister has stated that the granting of the federal franchise to Indians is long overdue. I hope that all members will agree that such is the case and that the passing of this bill will mark a new milestone in the advancement of the Indian people towards a fuller participation in the affairs of our country.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I want to say at the outset, not merely for myself but on behalf of the party to which I belong in this house, that we intend to support the principle of this bill without any reservation whatsoever. I know that in saying that I am taking a position different from the position which was taken by Mr. Harris in 1951 and 1952 when this subject was last before parliament.
I have taken the trouble to read Mr. Harris' excellent presentation and I do not think there is any question that the arguments he put forward at that time are just as valid today as they were then. I have also looked at what was said by the present Minister of Justice (Mr. Fulton) in 1952 when the Indian Act was completely revised and I agree with what he said at that time to the effect that the arguments used by Mr. Harris would be of unquestioned validity if applied to any but the aboriginal inhabitants of this country.
The fact is that whatever the legal basis of the tax exemption may be-and I do not intend to enter into a discussion of that today because I think I could be ruled out of order for doing so and in any case I do not think it 79951-0-121
Indian Act
matters; it certainly does not matter to the argument I am putting forward now-whether it is merely statutory or whether it is, as Mr. Drew suggested it was in the debates at that time, something inherent in the status of Indians, it is nevertheless something that most of the Indian people feel is a right.
I am sure that is the reason why despite the hopes that were held in 1952-53, most of the Indians did not execute this waiver; because, in fact, of course this exemption from taxation of income earned on the reserves does not amount to very much; it is not very much that the treasury is losing and it is not very much in the most of cases the Indians would be giving up, but it is a right they believe they have. I am quite sure the hon. lady is quite right when she says the evidence is that the present law is not going to result in many of the Indians exercising the franchise as is clearly indicated by the statistics she gave today that only 122 of them have executed this waiver. Therefore I say that as far as we are concerned we intend to support the principle of this bill.
In a moment I am going to suggest to the hon. lady that I think there are one or two things that could be done that would make this measure much more acceptable, or perhaps I should say much less objectionable, to those Indians, that rather considerable minority of Indians who are either actively opposed to it or very suspicious of it. The hon. lady herself has pointed out that there are many of these Indians.
There are some Indians, of course, who deny that they are Canadian citizens, as I said earlier this afternoon, and who would themselves on no account exercise the franchise, but I do think that for the majority of Indians, including a good number I have talked to, they are not really genuinely anxious to deny the vote to other Indians as long as there is no obligation placed on them to exercise the vote themselves and, as long as at the same time they are quite sure that this is not the thin edge of the wedge which is being inserted by parliament between them and their traditional treaty or other rights.
It seems to me there are certain improvements that the minister could introduce. I am rather glad she will have the opportunity overnight to consider this with the officials because I think there are certain things we could all agree to do. I am simply going to

Indian Act
put them forward as suggestions at this stage. I feel that these suggestions, if implemented, would make this legislation more acceptable or less objectionable.
The first thing I think we ought to do is get an opinion from the minister as to whether the effect of the legislation now before us will be to cancel the existing waivers. If the hon. lady has a legal opinion that it does cancel the waivers for sure, all well and good, but it has been suggested to me-and I do not pretend to know enough about the law to be positive in this case-that if one looks at the Interpretation Act, all this bill will do is to allow all Indians to vote whether or not they have signed the waiver but that the 122 Indians who have signed the waiver will be left under a permanent disability as opposed to other Indians.
As I say, I hope at some stage the hon. lady will give us an opinion from the deputy minister of justice, the law officer of the crown, on that point. I think we should be reassured not just by the hon. lady's assurances but by a legal opinion on this point or, to make absolutely sure, we should put an express provision in the bill to cancel the waivers. That is the first point.
The second point is that either in this bill or possibly preferably in the other bill-I hope Your Honour in view of the interlocked character of them will not be too strait with me over an allusion to it

but in one or the other we should, either by way of preamble or by way of express provision, state that the conferring of the vote upon the Indians does not affect any other of their rights. I am not proposing any language. I am sure that the hon. lady with the advice she could get from the lawyers could find a wording much better than any I could suggest.
I quite agree with the hon. lady that we have no intention of taking away any of their rights but if it were put in the legislation itself, in one of the bills or acts and maybe even in both, it would be desirable. We should do anything we can to give an additional assurance to the Indians that we are not engaged in any scurvy tricks. I am not seeking to put this forward in a partisan spirit. I believe we all want to accomplish the same thing here and we all want to give the maximum assurance.
What I say next is relevant to the bill in a broad sense but not in a narrow sense. This is an act to amend the Indian Act.

The minister and I would not disagree about section 112 of the present act, I am sure. When I was minister I said I would never use that section. I also pledged that the first time I ever brought amendments to the act before the house I would move for its repeal. I do not think there would be any quarrel in the house if we included an amendment in this bill repealing section 112 of the act. That would greatly reassure the Indians because section 112 which is the section relating to compulsory enfranchisement is totally unworkable and I am sure the minister would agree with me about that. The sooner we get it out of the act the better. I do not think it would delay the passage of this measure five minutes and as a matter of fact it might easily expedite it. It would certainly provide a very great deal of reassurance to the Indians.
Apart from that, there is nothing I would say beyond this. I completely agree with the view-and I was never at all happy about it from the time I became the minister of citizenship and immigration-that the Indians should have the vote. I think that much of the misunderstanding of the whole Indian problem in Canada is occasioned by the fact that they do not have the vote, that the whole notion that they have in some way a status different from the status of other citizens arises in the popular mind from the fact that they do not have the vote.
I believe, too, that it is quite wrong that they should not have the vote. I am sure the minister would agree with this view, too. My experience when I was the minister was that in those provinces where the Indians have the vote in provincial elections there is a great deal more attention paid by the provincial governments to the real wishes of the Indians than in those provinces where they do not have the vote.
Were it not against the rules to do so I would express some surprise that in one of the western provinces which prides itself on being exceptionally progressive the vote has never been extended to the Indians. There is no doubt whatever that the moment anyone has a vote in the minds of a great many people aspiring to office, aspiring to election, he does seem to take on a somewhat greater importance. I know that we in this house are all so high minded it would not affect any of us but there are some who have been defeated candidates who, I think, might have been affected by such considerations.
The fact is that the vote is the most priceless of all the possessions of a citizen. To

my way of thinking it is certainly not too soon to be seeing to it that the original citizens of this country have the franchise.


Mr. Erik Nielsen (Yukon):: Mr. Speaker, in rising to speak on Bill No. C-2 I find myself in agreement with many of the things that the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate (Mr. Pickersgill) has said, but in disagreement with other statements he made, particularly the hon. gentleman's reference to the effect that the people of Canada seem to labour under a misconception about the status of Indian people being different from that of an ordinary citizen. I hope during the course of my subsequent remarks to indicate that this is indeed a fact.
The position in the Yukon is somewhat different from the situation that exists in other parts of Canada in two chief respects. First, the vote has always been given to the Indian people of the Yukon and I believe it is the only place in Canada where they have had the federal franchise.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mackenzie river, also.


Erik Nielsen: The Mackenzie river Indian people; this is correct; I stand corrected here. The Mackenzie river people, though, are treaty Indians; whereas the Indian people of the Yukon are not. This is the singular difference in the Yukon. I think the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate will agree with me there.
The principle that I would like to support immediately is that there is no reason, there never has been any reason, as far as I can see, why the Indian people of this country were not entitled to vote at all times.
As the minister has pointed out, in the early years of self-government in this country the Indian people did in fact have the vote and they exercised the franchise in some cases by utilizing ballot boxes placed on the reserves. In the Yukon we have never had any particular difficulty with the Indian people voting. We have always thought that this is their right even though the Indian people have not been entitled to vote in territorial elections there until recently.
May I adjourn the debate, Mr. Speaker?


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member has indicated he wishes to adjourn the debate. May I point out that in due course the proceedings will be interrupted. Before the hon. member proceeds, may I point out a problem which is presented by the motion to give this bill second reading. There is no principle in this bill. It would make no difference in the law whether it were passed or not. As I understand it, the purpose is to remove a section which becomes obsolete if 79951-0-1211
Indian Act
Bill No. C-3 is passed. This bill does not give the vote to Indians; the other bill does.
It seems to me that when the other bill is called, if we continue in this way, we shall have a double debate on the matter of giving the vote to Indians. It would be a solution if hon. members could give consent to the debate on the second reading of this bill applying to both bills.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I wonder whether we could not have unanimous consent if the leader of the house would ask for it. I am sure unanimous consent would be given to have the debate on the principle of this bill apply to both bills. With that understanding, when we reach the other bill second reading could be given to it without debate. I make that suggestion.


Frank Howard: That would be, so far as we are concerned, the most logical course to follow. If the house would give consent to the discussion on this bill applying to the other bill I am sure that no debate will develop when it is called.


Mr. Speaker:: It seems to be a proper suggestion if the house leader is agreeable and the house will order that the debate on this bill would be considered as a debate on both, so that when second reading of the other bill is called the question will be put without debate, and everything that is to be said will be said at this time.


Gordon Minto Churchill: I think that will be quite agreeable.


Mr. Speaker:: If the house will give unanimous consent to that, all members who wish to speak on the other bill will speak in this debate and second reading on the other bill will be moved without debate.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Erik Nielsen: I quite realize that the whole subject of the policy governing the administration of Indian affairs will be coming before the joint committee of this house and the other place which will be set up as soon as the resolution passes this afternoon. While there are special features that are applicable to the Indians of the Yukon territory, yet their problems are much the same as those of people elsewhere in Canada. But in discussing the principle involved in this bill, namely whether or not it is a good thing or a bad thing to provide the right to vote to the Indian people, I want immediately to say that I support the principle of the bill, that is to say that Indian people in Canada should have the right to vote, but I want to consider it in the light of the approach which has been made to the administration of the Indian

Indian Act
Act in the past and relate that administration to the rights which will be acquired by the Indian people if this bill is passed.
We are considering here a bill which in effect will provide the Indian people with the right to vote. This right to vote, in my view, must be distinguished carefully from the obligation to vote, and this apparently is the fear of a good many Indian people in Canada; as it has been described by a substantial minority. Some of the Indian people seem to fear that by the amendment that is now before the house some of their treaty rights will either be abrogated or diminished.
At this point I should like to emphasize my own view, a view which is shared by a good many of the Indian people of the Yukon, a view which they express in the casting of their ballot during a federal election, that progress in the administration of Indian affairs in the country cannot be placed merely on the doing of things for the Indian people. There has been a long experience of the unfortunate results flowing from this indiscriminate paternalism, however well in-tentioned it may have been. Inevitably, inexorably and irrevocably such a program destroys the self-reliance and the initiative of the person it is intended to help by ignoring the basic human right of each individual to decide for himself where his best interests lie. This applies equally and strongly to the bill before the house in as much as this statement of mine can be related to the assertion that it is up to the Indian people themselves to decide for themselves just where their best interests lie in so far as the administration of Indian affairs in the country is concerned, by the.casting of their ballots.
In my submission, our policy should be to minimize the effect of any interference, however benevolent it may be, with the private lives and rights of the Indian people. By this amendment to the Indian Act the Indian people of Canada may, if they wish, but not otherwise, take full advantage of expressing their own desires, their own approval or rejection of federal policies in the field of Indian affairs. They may criticize by their vote the educational policies, the welfare policy, indeed any policy of the branch which affects themselves.
I consider it very important indeed that in working toward the advancement of various Indian groups in the country we must start first with education in the broadest possible sense, just discussed by the hon. member for Vancouver East (Mr. Winch). I say "in the broadest possible sense," that is by developing and fostering among the Indian people a deep desire for a better way of life, at any rate what we consider to be a better way of

life; at all times remembering that the individual Indian has every right to regard his existing way of life, if he so chooses to regard it, as the ultimate in a standard of living.
This is sometimes hard for us to understand. On this point I am afraid I am in disagreement with the hon. member for Bon-avista-Twillingate (Mr. Pickersgill) because it is not up to us to impose our own views and our own standards upon the Indian people. Integration does not mean assimilation as I believe was mentioned by a member in the far corner a moment ago.
When the Indian himself has taken the first step essential assistance can then be provided to the extent that the Indian people are unable to help themselves. Here I think it is most important to observe that the pace of this development, of these influences which are brought to bear by our policies, is vital. We cannot afford in our impatience to improve conditions among the Indian people to elbow them aside, to displace their own desires and supplant our own views in preference to theirs. It must be left to the Indian people to do those things which they can and which they should and must do for themselves. By providing an opportunity for the Indian people to vote and to have an opportunity to express their own feelings in these matters we will be steering away somewhat from the past propensity to do very undesirable things in the administration of Indian affairs in Canada.
At the same time, if one agrees that what I say is true then the federal authorities must never use this idea that the Indians should be allowed to help themselves and do as they wish as an excuse for failure to provide the basic help that the Indian people need and which they sincerely want and themselves have requested. The decisions as to whether or not to help, how much to give and how far to go are basic to a successful and enlightened administration, and these I believe constitute the most difficult judgments expected of Indian affairs administrators. I realize that all such administrators are human and that mistakes will be inevitable. Nevertheless, these should be and must be kept to an absolute minimum. For this purpose I believe that the administration of Indian affairs in this country must depend heavily upon the help and support of citizen committees such as the one which exists in the Yukon, the Indian advancement association whose activities, under the presidency of Mr. Ted Anderson, are doing much to advance the progress of the Indian people of the Yukon. Such associations, incidentally, are one media whereby the Indian people may express their

opinions and views and acquire facts which will enable them to make their decisions should they choose to exercise their right to vote.
On motion of Mr. Nielsen the debate was adjourned.



THE ROYAL ASSENT

[Stage Direction]
A message was delivered by Major C. R. Lamoureux, Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod, as follows:
Mr. Speaker, the Honourable the Deputy Governor General desires the immediate attendance of this honourable house in the chamber of the honourable the Senate.
Accordingly, Mr. Speaker with the house went up to the Senate chamber.
And being returned:
Mr. Speaker informed the house that the Deputy Governor General had been pleased to give, in Her Majesty's name, the royal assent to the following bills:
An act for the relief of Frank Gerald Donnelly.
An act for the relief of Romeo Dilorio.
An act for the relief of Marie Evelina Simone Lorette Charest Gelinas.
An act for the relief of Yvette Dubois Leduc.
An act for the relief of Lily Cohen Turner Hamburger, otherwise known as Lily Cohen Turner Hamburg.
An act for the relief of Marthe Turcotte Bazire.
An act for the relief of James Joseph Kalmin.
An act for the relief of Barbara Dolores Jones Ogilvie.
An act for the relief of Margaret June Barrie Belanger.
An act for the relief of Hannah Margaret Burlie Griffiths.
An act for the relief of Ruth Sherman Roll.
An act for the relief of Francis Lawrence Bray.
An act for the relief of Beverley Cowan Moore Robinson.
An act for the relief of George Barrington Redfearn.
An act for the relief of Shirley Veronica Hannah Groves.
An act for the relief of Leonia Szafarz Falk.
An act respecting The British and Foreign Bible Society in Canada.
An act to amend the Department of Justice Act.
An act for granting to Her Majesty certain sums of money for the public service of the financial year ending the 31st March, 1960.

Lionel Chevrier: May I ask what the business of the house will be for tomorrow and Friday?
Business of the House
Can the house leader also indicate what we will be doing on Monday as well?


Gordon Minto Churchill: Yes. We should like to continue tomorrow with these two bills dealing with Indian affairs and then, on their completion, to carry on with the resolution in the name of the Minister of Public Works on the subject of national housing; then the resolution in the name of the Minister of Transport dealing with amendments to the Railway Act; and the resolution in the name of the Prime Minister which I have mentioned frequently previously dealing with the tenure of judges. If we can complete those items this week I think we shall begin to show signs of progress in our legislative program. Monday would be private members' day.


Lionel Chevrier: One thing is not quite clear. The house leader indicated that in any event on Friday we would go on with the estimates of the Department of Agriculture. I take it now that that is not the intention, and we will carry on with the program as indicated by the house leader?


Gordon Minto Churchill: My hon. friend has been very co-operative throughout the session, but I did not say "in any event". That question was asked me the other day, and I was quite careful to say that this program was subject to change. I tried to outline the business of the house for several days, but it is hard to estimate the amount of time which will be taken on any one item.
This is what we would like now to do on Thursday and Friday, and complete this portion of the legislative program, which is rather extensive. There are 22 items on the order paper now, and this is the fortieth day of the session. We have the legislative program, all the estimates of the twenty-odd departments, plus the budget debate, which is a fixed debate according to time. If our target date is July 1 then we have to start making rather good progress on some of these items.


Lionel Chevrier: Then we will not have agriculture on Friday, I take it?


Gordon Minto Churchill: Not unless we proceed with expedition on the items I have already outlined.


[Stage Direction]
It being fifteen minutes after six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[Stage Direction]
Questions